-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Interestingly enough, the M-7 cars bear some resemblance to the R143, and seem to share some mechanical aspects as well. They both whine nicely when they accelerate, too.
wayne
avid
One of the things I remember from all my years riding on the El and Broad Street Subway in Philly is the sound of the trains on the tracks, the clickety clack of steel wheels on jointed steel rails. Now, it may be much better to roll on continuous welded rail (CWR), but the sound just ain't the same.
Well, there is at least one place where you can still hear mainline trains bang the iron, the Amtrak Harrisburg Line (but not for long). The newest video clip has the restored PRR E8's heading west for Ohio, and Amtrak, instead of sending them on the CWR of Track 3, sent them on Track 4 (thank you, Thank You, THANK YOU). Also put a still shot of the train and a few others on the Philly NRHS site
http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW.html
http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Video/Index.html
Friday I was working under the Mainline out around Exton! I was surveying Phoenixville Pike where it passes under the R5 there, if we'd gotten out there like 30 minutes earlier we might have seen Mr. Bennet's E8s!
A change of trains is allowed, as long as both train are heading in the same direction. But... a change of direction counts as two distinct trips.
With regular one way tickets, you can purchase a ticket from Massapequa to Mineola (via Jamaica), but I don't think the LIRR sells Flatbush to Penn via jamaica...thats why i ask the above question.
Q train (stops right inside Flatbush and one block east of Penn Sta)
2/3 trains (stop right inside both Flatbush and Penn Sta)
Q train is 19 minutes plus 12 minutes (absolute daytime maximum) waiting time
2/3 trains I believe take a bit longer but the choice of lines reduces waiting time.
If you buy at least a $10 Metrocard, the fare paid with these alternatives is technically $1.67, as opposed to $5, the cost of 2 City Tickets for LIRR (because of the change of direction at Jamaica).
The Q train ans the 2/3 trains wouls be a 1-seat ride.
Maybe he wants to take the scenic route and go blasting through he Atlantic Ave tunnel. Also checking up on the Jamaica station rehab. And, oh yes, checking out the Airtrain terminal. There's a Men's room that's a lot cleaner and safer than the one downstairs at Jamaica Station. Also a chilled water fountain that's great on a hot humid day.
Bill "Newkirk"
Peace,
ANDEE
http://www.strandbooks.com/profile/?isbn=1400062845&itemno=0
Assuming WebTV doesn't upgrade their 'browser' periodically, even the most basic of web technologies are lacking like cookie abilities, Javascript, etc.
Consider a laptop or even a PDA if you want to access SubTalk anywhere, MetMan.
Yes. Older units, like mine, have mechanical ones. Newer units have digital drives.
Assuming WebTV doesn't upgrade their 'browser' periodically, even the most basic of web technologies are lacking like cookie abilities, Javascript, etc.
WebTV's browser has the same cookie capabilities that IE5 has, although I cannot control their functions.
Besides, this is a recent problem (last 48 hours), one which I hadn't encountered in the last 6+ years.
In any case, I don't see why anyone would still have it? Computers are vastly superior to those things, though I won't delve any deeper.
I'd imagine the differences in resolution between a TV and a monitor is recognizable.
I'm pulling a Homer Simpson, where the family goes to church and I await the game.
I'd imagine the differences in resolution between a TV and a monitor is recognizable
Yes. But I can read text fine with this resolution.
I see; wearing only your undies and bear claw slippers, huh? 8-) Don't forget your waffler snack...
Yes. But I can read text fine with this resolution.
Where are you sitting on your bed; at the front?
No comment.
Don't forget your waffler snack...
I lost the recipe for Homer's special moon waffles.
Where are you sitting on your bed; at the front?
Sitting? If I wanted to sit, I'd boot up the PC!
As for the recipe...
Ingredients:
Waffle batter
caramels
Liquid Smoke
A stick of butter
Equipment:
A waffle iron.
Directions:
Mix and pour batter/Liquid Smoke onto iron and sprinkle caramels on top. Close and follow waffle cooking directions provided on box. Once lifted, note burn marks left and right. Finish by wrapping 'waffle' around stick of butter. Serves 25, calorie-wise. Dog licking on stomach optional.
Anyway, I'm writing about the recent post from Fred G. with the video and sounds of a BMT train acceleratng through a curve. What memories that distinctive groan evoked in me! I grew up near the Pitkin Ave section of the Fulton El. Very near image http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?7581.
Steve's explination of the particular gears used in the traction system is the first I heard. I wonder if that explination jibes with my recollection that the groan abruptly ceased when the motorman put the controler out of a power position and into coast. Am I correct in this memory? The gears would still be in contact and turning. Wouldn't the groan continue?
Another auditory memory is the sound of the compressors on these cars. When they cycled on you heard a wind up into a tweet - tweet - tweet sound. Do you recall?
I live near Philadelphia now, but I'd love to meet some of you at the up-comming MOD trip on 14 Aug. This is a great web site!
The MoD trip later this month will truly be a wing-ding.
Sounds like your recollection of the C types (I'm assuming this is the type you're referring to as you indicated living near the Fulton el) jibes with recent experiences I've had with the BU el cars. Even the R1/9's have that sound, and the groan you indicate when accelerating. I guess most pre-war equipment was similar, if not always compatible.
wayne
Gee, and I always regretted not ever riding on a Multi. But without the pre-war sounds I probably wouldn't have liked them. By the same token (excuse the pun) that is the reason I'm not a big PCC fan. (My only exception of course is 1001, I've helped out working on it at BERA during the winter as it's a part of Brooklyn's history.)
Yes, I did hear/see that the pitkin stub and the whole structure along Snediker was removed just last year. Damn, I'd have loved to see it once more.
It is true, is it not, that one cannot get a good "head end" view riding the Canarsie any longer because the cars on that branch now have full cabs and you can't see out? Too bad!
The sound is basically caused by the successive pinion gear
teeth on the motor meshing with the bull gear teeth on the axle.
While the motor is taking power, there is considerable pressure
on the teeth, which is what transmits the mechanical force to
the axle. During coasting, the motor freewheels and there is
very little pressure on the gear teeth. Thus, the noise is
sharply reduced and may also change from a constant groan to
a "tink tink tink" sound.
For more info see TheDowneaster.com
Also the Maine Eastern Railroad (an operaion of the Morristown & Erie Railway) will offer excursion services through the fall.
I missed you when I was there. Will have to try again.
Sounds like real progress is being made. The more trucks taken off of roads, the better.
The article goes on to say that the NY&A is about to run out of space in their current yard, so without new yard space, their current growth will be halted.
The problem is that there isn't any additional space to grow at Fresh Pond, and very little on the Bay Ridge also.
-Chris
Does anyone have an image of this cross section, or know where I can find it again? Thanks!
Step 2: The T/O or B/O glances at the monitors frequently to monitor for vandals. When someone is spotted vandalising something, stop the train or pull over the bus, go to where the vandalism occured, and handcuff the vandal and bring him/her to the police at the end of the run. Fine the vandal for ALL vandalised equipment currently running, no matter HOW freakishly enormous the fine is. When all damages are fixed and paid for, vandal shield all the windows and the transit equipment will live happily ever after. :-)
Notes
1) Camera configurations: (1)On buses, 40-footers and Artix: One camera to view the entire the entire bus from the front, one to view the back, one to view the seats behind the B/O's cabin partition, and one to view the seats behind the rear door partition. (2)On subway cars: Two cameras at each end per car to view the whole interior from two ways.
2) Monitor configurations: (1)On buses: Four monitors either to the left of, or above, the B/O's sightline through the windshield.
(2)On BMT/IND trains: 16 small monitors above the T/O's sightline through the windshield. On IRT trains: 20 small monitors above the T/O's sightline thorough the windshield.
What do y'all think? And BTW I don't care how much the vandal has to pay for ALL those damages to transit equipment currently running.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
CCTV would do the trick; it's already present along the 63rd Street stations.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Your idea is crazy and there are better ways to combat vandalism than yours. Let the B/Os and T/Os drive, let the police combat crime.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
The camera don't have to smashed or damaged. Just disabled by sticking something in front of it to block the view.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
And they are less well armed than the T/O or bus driver.
Then again, when I said they were lucky they weren't my kids, they said "you got that right."
Let's see, what's been done with boxcutters, a few years ago?
I had something rather more drastic in mind.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
are you kidding me? don't you think that's a bit of a harsh generalization?
i vandalized a few things when i was younger and stupid, but somehow i managed to get a graduate degree from an ivy league institution in the meantime. hmmm, i guess i'll still be a murderer and assaulter at heart....
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-James
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
No subways and buses, no vandalism.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Your pal,
Fred
1. the money to install a system like this would be astronomical, and i don't know if it'll really be benifical..........
2.QUOTE"Step 2: The T/O or B/O glances at the monitors frequently to monitor for vandals. When someone is spotted vandalising something, stop the train or pull over the bus, go to where the vandalism occured, and handcuff the vandal and bring him/her to the police at the end of the run. Fine the vandal for ALL vandalised equipment currently running, no matter HOW freakishly enormous the fine is. When all damages are fixed and paid for, vandal shield all the windows and the transit equipment will live happily ever after. :-)"QUOTE
t/o, c/o and bus operators are not police/peace officers(who have authority to make arrests); and you jeopardize their safety by giving them authority to arrest or attempt to arrest vandals.......and also, with that authority to arrest vandals, comes more compensation in their paycheck(pay raise), and a serious safety threat to c/o's and t/o's, especailly if it's a group of vandals...........and giving t/o's something else to watch other than signals and markers wouldn't be a good idea........
Is this what you want?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
According to OnTheJuice, someone who actually worked with the trains R142/as (in the yard, I believe), the plastic panels on the walls (in 142s) are almost permanently glued in place. Any vandal with an acute sense of observation will attack the plastic panels. I've been on the same R142 set for over a week, and "X-MEN" hasn't vanished. Vandal shield is replaced almost daily (if vandalism is seen, no?)
How about trains with the cheap plastic paneling, that costs approximately $2 per square foot, looks okay (like the R142/3's interior), and is easily removed (by turning a small key on the wall). Apply vandal shield to the inside and outside, and buff scratches off metal surfaces, etc...
How's that? Personally, I think the camera plan is really impractical.
\\Julian
P.S. Why isn't vandal shield applied to spotless windows on older rollingstock!?
1. Fire up BVE. Load any NYC subway route.
2. Open twenty or sixteen different movies (50,60 footers and 75 footers respectively) in QT (or media player of choice). If your computer cannot handle this, try five or eight, respectively.
3. Start driving your train.
4. Watch the videos.
While the idea is good in principle, it is bogged down by practicality. I hate the vandals too!!
\\Julian
Instead, have undercover cops disguised as sleeping homeless people or battery salesmen...
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/218007p-187380c.html
Typical garbage...you know just like ATM's. You should all get EZ pass as it saves us money (ATM's were supposed to save teller salaries remember) and now that we've hooked you, we'll charge you fees.
They got by for years without this asinine fee. What the hell is going on?
What a bad idea -- punish those who are helping others by not backing up traffic.
You can also go to http://www.ezpassdrjtbc.com/ or the Peace Bridge Authority, which is really run by JPMorgan-Chase out of the old Regional Consortium facility in Secaucus. No fee for any of them. I ordered mine over the internet from the drjtbc last February on a Monday night, and it came in Thursday's mail. They even remembered to enclose it in the read-protect bag.
When I killed by Port Authority account, the entire process took 2 months: 1 month to acknowledge they received it, another month to cut a check and mail it. They could have simply credited by credit card. Best to pay the tolls to Staten Isalnd and kill it on the spot rather than worry if the turkey's lost it in the mail.
The advertising got dropped in a hurry when the media got wind of it.
If Gov Bobby reads your comment (I don't think he reads SubTalk) he'll institute it in a heartbeat - auto registration fees went up on July 1.
The discounts/tolls collected are determined by the toll agency, not the tag issuing agency. MTA charges $3.50 to any and all E-ZPass users, including Massachusetts "FastLane" users, and will soon include Virginia "Smart Tag" users. Other agencies make you enroll in a discount plan in order to recieve the discounts, and can therefore make you get a tag from your state's "home" agency. The only agency I know of that gives a discount only to its own tags and not to other agencies' tags is Massachusetts Turnpike Authority (discounts only go to Massachusetts Fast Lane tags).
Later this year, Virginia's Smart Tag system will be compatible with E-ZPass, meaning you can get a smart Tag and never go to Virginia and use it in NY. I know they have no plans to institute a fee, and I think Virginians would be up in arms if they did, because they were promised that they would avoid the fees by staying out of the E-ZPass system until all the kinks were worked out by other states (like NJ). www.virginiadot.org and there is a link there somewhere for Smart Tag.
I think the discounts you are referring to are those for Stanten Island and/or Rockaway residents and yes it is probable they are only available with an MTA ez pass.
The lower tolls on the Verazzano, MTA and Port Authority bridges and tunnels are available to everybody with an EZ pass.
Incidentally, I noticed the Thruway EZ pass page is with the other NY facilities (MTA and/or PA). Does that mean when this absurd fee is added on, Thruway pass holders in the NYC area will be charged?
But then you would loose you discount on the MTA bridges ?
Even better suggestion: Buy the old TBTA tokens ($3.50 each), and ask for a receipt at the toll station. That receipt says $4.00.
The basic discounts are granted to all E-ZPass accounts.
I think I'm going with the Peace Bridge in Secaucus.
Understand that some of the discounts at the Port Auth relate to your county of residence, in addition to off-peak vs. peak time travel.
There's no mention of that in the article... although it wouldn't surprise me if they follow New Jersey's example.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I ditched my NJ tag for a NYSC tag when they instituted the fee, then I got a Port Authority tag which has its own fee. Blah. So now I'm just waiting till Smart Tag in Virginia hooks up to the E-Zpass network and then i'm done with E-Zpass for good.
I wish the Thousand Islands Bridge Authority would get with it, but they are more of a Canadian outfit as their mailing address is Lansdowne, ONT. They would probably go with the tag the private tollway near Toronto uses. The tag is identical, but not on the EZ Pass system.
Wouldn't happen to be one of those truck-things masquerading as a car, would it? Most trucks and buses have their EZPasses attached to the front grill, since the usuall location (windshield below the rearview mirror) is way to too high for the reader.
The type of windshield glass used in some cars blocks the EZ Pass signal, therefore requiring a license plate routing. My wife's Mitsubishi Eclipse is an example.
I not only thought that tolls should be imposed, but also that not everyone should be given a EZ Pass that allows direct access to Manhattan. Instead, there should be background checks for those who drive right in, and searchs for those who have not qualified.
Now we hear that car and truck bombs may be used against New York. If the right to drive is absolute, there is no way to stop this. I have always said that this was the most likely kind of attack on New York, one that had the potential to kill far more people than a suitcase bomb in a single train car.
Instead of taking advantage of the fact that the center of our region is an island easily accessible by train, we have sacrificed our safety for the right to drive.
As I wrote the Mayor and City Council Speaker some years ago, measures like the ones I suggested are sure to be implemented. After car and truck bombs kill a few hundred people. Until then, the right to drive is apparently only freedom that cannot be sacrificed in the war against terror.
You guys gave me a question actually. Remember that wall street bombing a LONG time ago in history. Something like that doesn't seem all that complex. I don't think our problems in this world/county really need to focus on these ultra complex issues. Hopefully we'll just have all these vague warnings and not much action so we don't turn into another Isreal. Crime and shoplifting would go down, but i'm not to keen on National Guard troops manning the wal-mart(which is what they're meant for, not battle).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They're privately owned. Emergency vehicles and public buses, on the other hand, are government-owned vehicles.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Taxi cabs are expmpted because they are part of the transportation system, and have a special permit to operate. Yes they are privately owned, but they still constitude public transportation.
A ban on delivery trucks is absurd. Every building in the city requires delivers by truck. Be it paper clips or pizzas goods must be delivered to the city. Parking speces on the streets are allocated just like gates at an airport. A consortium of truckers sits down and plans out who will park where, and when.
Generally midtown avenues are busses and taxis only, as well as major crosstown streets. All other streets are "Trucks Only", the east and west avenues permit trucks and other vehicles.
The ban, according to me, is on "Private Automobiles not registered to a natural person with a primary residecnce in the CBD area with proof of off-street parking" In other words, to have a license plate that indicates that you reside in the CBD, AND have leased a parking space for that vehicle.
According to my plan, a toll/inspection barrier is erected north of 60th Street, only approved vehicles may enter. Additionally, all tolls are time sensitive on all other access points. Obviously, having banned private cars, many more busses will have to enter the city.
I see nothing wrong with franchised bus companies operating luxury busses perhaps with food service amenities and door-to-door service to their customers who prefer to pay for this kind of service.
Lincoln Tunnel:
Franchise Busses only inbound x 5 lanes 0600 to 1000 weekdays
Franchise Busses only outbound x 5 lanes 1500 to 2100 weekdays
Franchise Trucks and CBD cars permitted at other times.
Trucks must be manifest for a Manhattan Address: Thru Trucks to Long Island or Conneticuit must use the Verizano or GeoWash Bridges.
Holland Tunnel:
CBD Permitted Cars at all times.
All Busses 0700 to 0900 and 1600 to 2000 hours
All Trucks permitted at other times (Inspection of Non-Franchise Trucks Required)
Trucks must be manifest for a Manhattan Address: Thru Trucks to Long Island or Conneticuit must use the Verizano or GeoWash Bridges.
Brooklyn Battery Tunnel:
CBD Permitted Cars at all times.
All Busses 0700 to 0900 and 1600 to 2000 hours
All Trucks permitted at other times (Inspection of Non-Franchise Trucks Required)
Brooklyn Bridge:
Busses and LRVs only, bicycles and pedestrians permitted.
Manhattan Bridge:
CBD Permitted Cars at all times.
Busses, and Taxis only 0700 to 1000 and 1600 to 2000 hours.
Franchised Only Trucks at other times.
Williamsburg Bridge:
CBD Permitted Cars at all times.
Busses, Taxis, LRVs only 0700 to 0900 and 1600 - 1900 hours.
Franchised Only Trucks permitted at other times.
Quees Midtown Tunnel:
Busses, Taxis only 0600 to 1000 and 1500 to 2100 hours.
All Trucks permited at other times (Non-Franchised Trucks to be inspected)
Queensboro Bridge:
CBD Permitted Cars at all times.
Private cars permitted to and from points north of 60th Street
Buses, Taxis, and LRVs Permitted.
Bicycles and pedestrians permited at all times.
No Trucks permitted at any time.
Tolls:
Hudson River:
Trucks $20.00 + $10.00/axel (Not Collected 2300-0600)
Cars $10.00
East River Tunnels:
Trucks $20.00 + $5.00/axel (Not Collected 2300-0600)
Cars $10.00
East River Bridges (EZpass only)
Trucks $10.00 + $5.00/axel (Not Collected 2300-0600)
Permitted Cars: No Charge
Elias
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There were many problems with the proposal to place tolls on the 4 East River bridges. One of the biggest was that the city and state effectively forfeited their right to place tolls on these bridges by accepting $2 billion from the feds to keep some of these bridges standing. These monies would have had to be returned to the feds, thus making toll imposition a revenue neutral proposition, at best.
Some people had proclaimed tolling these bridges to be a "congestion pricing" scheme. The only true congestion pricing scheme was proposed by Sam Schwartz. It would have placed tolls on the East River Bridges, as well as on the avenues at 60th St. It would also have removed tolls on the Triborough, Whitestone, Throggs Neck, Henry Hudson, Crossbay, Marine Parkway, GW and the 3 SI bridges. Schwartz thought his proposal would be revenue neutral but would have reduced traffic in the CBD. The mayor was not interested in that type of congestion pricing.
The ultimate congestion pricing scheme would place tolls on every road that ever sees congestion. If we were designing a partial congestion pricing scheme from scratch, Sam Schwartz's proposal would make sense, but I guess that's not what the mayor was after.
I believe that federally funded highways can have tolls on them under legislation passed in the 1990s. And, unfortunately, the feds only funded part of the rebuilding of the bridges. Most of it was debt.
The $2 billion that the feds expended were part of the Bridge Rehabilitation Act of the early 1980's. This act was restricted to toll free bridges. The state and city could place tolls on these bridges, only if it refunds the $2 billion to the feds. That's what I meant by "effectively forfeiting the right to place tolls" on these bridges. The rehabilitation of the Williamsburg Bridge is still a work in progress, under this legislation.
unfortunately, the feds only funded part of the rebuilding of the bridges. Most of it was debt.
The feds paid 80% of the cost of rehabilitating these bridges.
Bloomberg's proposal was essentially a tax on Brooklyn and Queens residents under the guise of "congestion pricing". Sam Schwartz noted that current bridge tolls encourage trucks to use the CBD, rather than avoiding it. His proposal would have moved much of the CBD's trans-Manhattan traffic out of the CBD and into the outer boroughs. However, it would have been revenue neutral, which was counter one of Bloomberg's unstated objectives.
Unless you're in far Brooklyn, you don't need a car. And, if you want one, you should have to pay up for it. The longer I lived there, the more I believed that. But Queens... well, that's unfortunately much less served by transit.
Pity though. I think NYC would get called out for that $2BB under this administration.
It is not a toll, it is an entry tax that just happens to be collected at the bridge.
The revenue is used for quality of life and traffic abatement issues in the CBD, and has no relationship to the bridge.
Elias
The "right to drive" is non-existent. Driving is a privilege, not a right.
You beat me to making the correction to this statement. What we have is the right of free movement. There are regulation applied to what conveyances one chooses to use to travel in.
John
That's going too far. Make it excessively difficult to drive into Manhattan, and you'll end up alienating more and more of the business community - who'll just move elsewhere.
1) the name
2) what kind of trains are serviced
3) any other helpful info.
of/at/about the yard.
In addition, I saw a coupled Redbird pair sitting inside. One car I caught was #8336. What type of car is it? It looked weird at first with the black rubber outlines around the windows.
I don't really know what type of trains besides the R68's get serviced there, but jerome services the R142/A and the R62 cars.
And I think that redbird pair was actually sitting in Concourse. Don't get the two confused. IRT redbirds and BMT/IND redbirds (R30s/R30As) are often there BTW.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Jerome is getting some single R62As from the 3 once the R142Ss come in.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
Wmataoagh lives in DC, he said it himself...
Why are you making a big deal about this to begin with? There are MANY people here who do NOT reside in New York yet they know plenty while a number of people who post here and do reside in New York don't know as much as others. It all works itself out in the end.
Have you found my contributions to the board yet or have you not bothered to look?
I still say the 6 & 7 train fleet swap is an utter waste of resources and besides the 5-car sets should not be broken up and there needs to be singles [think modern version of an R33WF single] so that the 7 can still be 11-cars but keep two 5-car sets
Car 8336 was an R-30. It's now used as a classroom for training train operators and conductors.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
David
On weekdays when the B is operating the waits aren't terrible. When the B isn't running especially weekends its terrible. Probably a better solution is to run D trains local along CPW. But most Bronx riders or at least the ones who post here seem very opposed to that and like their trains mostly empty. So as to not raise the same issue again try an archive search under subject "express" or maybe "cpw".
Swap 96 R-32s arranged in 12 eight-car sets for 110 R-38s arranged in 11 ten-car sets. Hmmm...
When those 96 R-32s get re-arranged into ten-car sets for A service, they become 9 ten-car trains, while when the 110 R-38s get re-arranged into eight-car sets for C service, they become 13 eight-car trains.
I imagine the C riders would be thrilled with their extra trains, but who's going to tell the A riders about their completely unjustified service cut?
Oh, and as someone else pointed out, INCREASED headways=DECREASED service.
David
207 Street (A, C)-194 cars
96 GE R-38 3950-3989, 3992-3999, 4002-4049.
98 GE R-38 4050-4087, 4090-4149.
--Used on A, C.
Pitkin (A, C)-410 cars
80 GE R-32A (Phase I) 3356/3357, 3360/3361, 3370/3371, 3376/3377, 3380/3381, 3383/3890, 3396/3397, 3400/3401, 3404-3407, 3412-3417, 3424/3425, 3426-3429, 3434/3435, 3438-3443, 3448/3449, 3452/3453, 3460/3461, 3464/3465, 3471/3658, 3476/3477, 3484/3485, 3488/3489, 3492/3493, 3504/3505, 3510/3511, 3518/3519, 3520/3891, 3548/3593, 3550-3553, 3618/3619, 3621/3644, 3628/3669, 3646/3647.
48 GE R-32 (Phase I) 3650/3767, 3654/3655, 3698/3699, 3714/3715, 3728/3729, 3796/3797, 3804/3805, 3810/3811, 3818/3819, 3820-3823, 3828/3829, 3834-3837, 3856/3857, 3864/3865, 3868 3873, 3894-3897, 3912/3913, 3928/3929, 3932/3933.
--Used on A, C.
2 GE R-32A (Sigma) 3594/3595.
8 GE R-32 (Sigma) 3880/3881, 3892/3893, 3934-3937.
--Used on C, sometimes A. Often mixed with Phase I R-32s or R-38s.
272 GE R-44 5202-5281, 5286-5318, 5320-5401, 5403-5479 (4-car unitized).
--Used on A.
Information from www.utcny.org
there are 130 R32's
194 R38's
the A does take a cut true indeed but in the long run those extra C-train would help take the load off those A trains at rush hours
David
As for there not being enough R-38s to service Queens Boulevard "lines," (actually "routes" in NYCT terminology), that's true and I never claimed otherwise. I suggested that a ONE-FOR-ONE swap of equipment between Pitkin's R-38s and Jamaica's R-32s be done. There are more than 196 R-32s at Jamaica, so it could be done if there were a need to do it -- which there isn't.
David
I wait too long for my (A) trains! Don't cut our service!!!
\\Julian
The only time you'll get a truly crowded C train in Brooklyn is if it arrives simultanously with a G at Hoyt St or an F at Jay St.
Mine are taking up two seat, leaning on doors and pole, and also peddleing.
I personally haven't been harassed by any cops yet (I've been question and I've been greeted; although I have been harassed by a number of NYCT employees who apparently have difficulty reading a simple bulletin), but others here have most certainly been harassed.
1. That was not the subject that I was addressing!
2. If you felt that you were wronged by an NYCT employee, you should have addressed it.
In every single incident between cop and photographer posted to this board, a similar story is heard. Cop tells photographer to stop. Photographer tells cop he isn't breaking the law. Cop says yes you are. Photographer tells cop that the law hasn't changed, but a change has been proposed. Cop abruptly ends debate, demands end to photography. It's painfully obvious that the police, for the most part, are ignorant when it comes to the laws regarding subway photography and that they can't deal with it when it's pointed out.
The incidents involving TA employees are different. I suspect most of them already know that they have no authority to confront photographers and that within limitations, it's legal, but they can't pass up the opportunity to act like bullies and to blow off steam.
That's an incorrect interpretation. The law gives the police the power to stop any photography or photographer which/who violates any of the listed restrictions (using a tripod, blocking pedestrian traffic, photographing in areas off limits to the public, etc). It does not give carte blanche to the NYPD or the MTA to ban or permit photography per se as it sees fits. If so, the whole point of this law becomes moot.
Having said that, has anyone here received a summons on the NYCT system for taking a picture? Has anyone had there camera confiscated? Calling it harassment does not make it so
3 Subtalkers have been given tickets here in NYC (all dismissed because they were groundless). I've heard of only one incident where a Subtalker was forced to erase his digital photos, but that was outside NYC and I can't comment on what kinds of laws governed that particular incident.
--Mark
Of COURSE I would expect that if they really ARE targets, then people would be surveilling currently to see if anything's changed. Assuming of course that they ARE surveilling. Considering though that this surveillance dates back PRIOR to 9/11, I'm willing to leave my mind open, but still consider them as possible "alternate targets" in the same manner as the 1993 WTC bombing. Close the garages and moat the sidewalks and a truck bomb is pretty much out of the picture for all of them. But you're not going to fly a plane into NYSE, you'd have to come straight down on it given the surroundings. And no offense to anyone, but NEWARK? What POSSIBLE "photo op" would THAT be?
CITICORP? Now *THERE'S* a target ... unstable building, bad design - hit it with a plane and it WILL fall over. In fact, that turd has been a MAJOR concern of FEMA Hurricane analysts - if "comes the big one" into New York harbor, kiss THAT puppy goombye. It should be torn down BEFORE it falls down. That sucker needs a perimeter.
NONE of this needed media attention though. Building owners, NYPD and NYFD, absolutely. Even *if* the information is older than a Dave Letterman joke. But given the realities, there was NO NEED for a political photo op ... boys REALLY blew it with this one, just like the others. There's people who NEED to know. CNN is NOT one of them. :(
NOW ... take all of what was in this latest "brown alert" for the masses and kick back and think about THIS angle. WHAT if they had SUBWAY track maps, pictures of towers, crew rooms, wheel bangs in switch frogs, and perhaps a downloaded copy of NX/whatever the interlock sim was or worse, BVE ("practicing to wreak havoc with a train simulator") or any of the OTHER goodies that are right here on subtalk. After all, pictures of ..., drawings of ..., detailed observations and logs of ..., sphincter tingling yet? Dammit! They had a CAMERA! And they USED IT! Heh. But that's my point.
Photoban? If you buy into THIS P.T.Barnum act, you're saying YES to the Taliban, errr ... photoban ... One thing I learned growing up in da chitty is "know WHEN to spot a sidewalk act." What separates THIS alert from a "damned foamer with a camera?" Can Ashcroft TELL? I rest my case.
I don't believe that my interpretation is incorrect. I suggest that you re-read the actual text.
Nobody's disputing it. The MTA is currently seeking to modify the rules. That's fine (although, obviously, many of us disagree with the proposed changes).
Incidentally, photography is not a privilege (nor is it a privilidge).
They don't need to pass new rules.
I find it hard to believe that the MTA is legally entitled to suspend an official rule without bothering to notify the public. The current rules are posted online and they include explicit permission to take pictures.
But let's say I'm wrong, and the MTA can suspend rules while they are still posted. So perhaps the explicit permission to take pictures has been suspended. There is still implicit permission to take pictures. Clause 1050.3a does not empower the MTA to impose new rules. There is no rule currently in effect that bans or limits photography on the subway system. Thus photography is still permitted, even if the clause explicitly granting permission is secretly suspended.
What makes you believe that the MTA has invoked clause 1050.3a anyway?
Having said that, has anyone here received a summons on the NYCT system for taking a picture?
At least three SubTalkers have received summonses (all of which were later dismissed). I've been fortunate in my encounters with the police, but a number of NYCT employees have threatened me.
By the way, John QTraindash7, also known as LITransit in the News 12 LI forum started a great thread there. Click here to see it.
Shall we bring that issue up again on how the Subtalk tours were killed off? Lest I apologized for a mistake on my end but JOHN, you went way over the top with that offensive remark.
Incidentally, wouldn't a rational person want their tax $ to go towards a police force that strives to make the community a better place instead of picking off low hanging fruit?
Mike is young, very liberal and has some funny ideas.
Also, skells (of all kinds), and bums, drunks, homeless people, &c.
Also, people who vomit on the train and who leave Eskimo pies behind.
Ain't no excuse for that.
wayne
A couple of years ago, a SubTalker reported that he once saw a woman on the Dyre Avenue line do something much, much worse.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
wayne
Why can't more people be like that?
London Subway Ad Angers Italians
when high school kids come out of school,sometimes the way they act sorrta makes me want to stand up and punch em in the face.i remember
one time after i took a high school RCT test,i took the 5 up to the
Bronx to see some birds in the Unionport yard.after that i got on a
Manhattan bound 5 train of R142 back home.there were these 3 girls on
the train(JR high school girl i think)acting some what rowdy,then one
of them asked me my name and said that one of the girls liked me(i,v
herd girls say that many times,it's annoying)they went to say some other comments which i knew they were dircted towards me without even
saying my name.there wern't that many people on the 1st car,then i see
one of the girls write on a piece of paper "kiss my a$$" and put it on
the window as Bronx-bound trains were passing.they started acting some
what normal as more people were getting on the train.they got off at
149th st in the bronx,i didn't even eye them but i did wanted to call
them idiots for doing that.
til next time
Though people that don't shower before getting on the train during rush hour is noteworthy as well, when it comes to just making everyone's ride a lot better... Nevermind smelly food: smelly people have to go!
Also, beggars/preachers/salespeople yelling inside a train. Recently, I've been seeing more of them, at one point, it was rare to see those kind of people, but now, I'm seeing them at least once every 3 days on various routes. Yeah and some of them do say the most stupidest and/or offensive things. Once at the G train, there was a guy who was pretty much cursing off every religion except christianity.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Heck, I watch Eyewitness News every day! AAMOF (As a Matter of Fact), I'm watching it right now!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
;-) James
-James
Jimmy
til next time
til next time
Da Hui
Also, the musicians in the subway are usually great. Midtown is the best, IMO for music.
As for what is bugging me:
Pole huggers, move the F**k over, b*tch.
Swipers, i really dont care, but there annoying when they beg u.
T/O's on trains who leave their cab door open, blocking the Railfan window on slants and 32s, 38s, etc. They do this to me all the time on Metro North.
-Chris
Regards,
Jimmy...
The soon to be retired Arrow III.
P.S: As long as names are not told on TV or anything (well my name at least), I'm okay with it.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Other pet peeves are bomb rushing into the car without letting people off the train just to get a seat, running down a subway platform to save 15 seconds when the train is mostly empty, and leaning over the edge of the platform (sometime half of your upper body is over the edge.)
Oh and leaving your food carton behind on the train or platform is another pisser, try doing that at your parents' house and see how far you can get away with it.
2) People who don't move to the center of the cars
3) Fare hikes
4) Service cuts
If prior generations keep dumping more debt on us, perhaps we'll default on the national debt. Treasury bond buyers, you've been warned.
I'm not sure what the laws are that govern bankruptcy by a special entity like the MTA. It might not be possible. Now, municipalities can declare bankruptcy, in fact I've advocated a NYC bankruptcy filing, but the MTA may be different.
- Panhandlers
- any type of roving "musical performances" (two of my least favorites are the blind guy playing the harmonica, and anything Mexican)
- Swipers
- Conductors on the 7 line who prop the cab door open with a hook
- Train operators who block the Railfan Window
- People who use profanity (at any volume)
- People having a conversation SO LOUD THAT YOU CAN HEAR IT AT THE OTHER END OF THE CAR!
- People who block the escalators
- sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow elevators
I meant to say, "accordion," not "harmonica."
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
P.S. Never give to a panhandler, cuz some of them aren't really poor and just want the $$$ for their drugs, alcohol, and sex (paying the money to the prostitutes for it). Just give to your temple's charity collections, at least you know where your money is going that way.
-James
- That nasty white stuff grafitti on the windows which isn't being removed.
- Numerous personnel doing things on the tracks under Queens Blvd which force trains to slow down at various spots.
- R32 F trains outside rush hours.
- Unbalanced service on the BMT Broadway express & local and the 6th Ave express.
- All R142's.
- The increasing inability of MTA personnel to adequately handle service reroutes/disruptions.
1- Timers on 4th Ave approaching 36 St
2- Panhandlers (especially ones crying everyone a river)
3- People that hold doors for long periods of time and act as if they don't even realize they're blocking it.
4- Those holy rollers that litter the train with a million posters on every seat and in every place one fits to stick in.
5- Homeless who stink up the subway (sleeping on the trains themselves)
6- People who sing songs aloud that they are playing loud enough in their CD player that you can clearly hear the song.
That's about all I can think of right now.
-James
2. Fat people who think they can fit in the small crack of seat thats open, when in reality the minute that seat is filled up, someone pops out of that seat.
3. Train operaters who can't drive.
4. Rush hour construction.
5. Teenagers.
6. Stink people.
7. Assholes who hold the door for their friends on street level.
8. The price for a weekly fare
9. People who never let you off the train.
10. Teenagers.
-Chris
--Acela
www.nyctba.com
This may seem weird coming from someone who utterly hates the NYPD and paranoid people and probably be the first to be quite rash toward no photo in the subway situations,I ask all to be careful and cautious of your actions when confronted by the NYPD or anyone else who tells you that photography are banned in the subway.If you have the MTA Rules of Conduct and/or the Photographer's Right's with you then make sure you have them on you when such situation's arise.It could prove helpful.
I know that alot of us are increasingly fed up with how we're treated by others when we're seen taking pictures of trains but now that we're back to the heightened security stage,last thing we need is for any of us to be thrown in jail for rash actions even though we're doing nothing wrong to begin with.
So again,be careful and handle the no photo harassment situations to the best of your ablities taking care in your actions.We must not let these fools dictate what we should and shouldn't do.This is a free country where we do as we please.Not a country that is full of people who let terrorist attacks overwhelm thier lives despite that having happened already.
Da Hui
Keep that thought in mind if you're robbed, beaten and lying bleeding in the street. Tell the police officers responding to the call that you hate them and they should go to hell.
Seriously, Common Sense. Know your laws, but don't be a smartarse. It also helps to take photos in groups (I'm a hypocrite of that statement though)
Don't worry; The Joe already has plans for another protest against the photo ban this September. Be there.
I think it would be funny, if not embarrassing for the NYPD, if they give me a summons for taking pictures from my camera phone, when the pictures I am taking were swipers (whom they should be the ones arrested, not me.). Imagine a full-scale media blackeye.
The condition of the Mets is off-topic for a transit board.
David
If they keep on playing like they have been, it will be off topic for a baseball board.
"This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only. This is not 'WorldPoliticsTalk'! Posts deemed off-topic, harrassing, inciteful, etc. will be removed at the discretion of the management."
In what universe are the Mets a rail transit system? In what universe are the Mets a rapid/rail transit issue?
David
BTW, I never said the Mets are a transit system; I merely pointed out that deciding what's on topic and what isn't on topic is nothing to do wih you, it's not your job to decide. So why do you?
Now, then: I'm still waiting to be informed as to what universe exists in which the Mets are a transit system. Until that question can be answered to David Pirmann's satisfaction (should he be interested, which so far it would appear he is not), I stand by my statement that the Mets are off-topic because they are not a transit system, and, according to the rules under which this board operates, which are annunciated clearly at the top of the board (and which the poster to whose message I am responding claims to have read) all posts are supposed to be transit-related. Prove me wrong.
David
BTW, what are the other lines where a railfan window is accessible?
As far as the NY Mets are concerned, they're going backwards instead of forwards. Looks like more changes will be ahead if the Mets do not make .500 by season's end.
That's because they strippes the old trackage at the east of the barn. It'll be rebuilt as a new maintenance facility and new trackage will be north of Roosevelt Avenue.
Here, take a look.
R142 6310 at Woodlawn.
RED SOX RULE! SOX IN '05!
If Leo Durocher were still alive, he'd probably say, "Back up the truck."
til next time
W bwy Lcl
It really is not a matter of where they go on the weekends, the issue is where do they go at night. The weekend is only a very long night as far as where the carsets have gone.
Some are laid up at City Hall, some on the Astoria el or in the 63rd Street tunnel, and some return to CI for service and cleaning. Obviously the latter three sets are rotated so that all sets get a chance at service in the yards.
Elias
I can attest to that. During the June MOD Trip, we had to go through a parked W train to enter LLCH, and we encountered another W train on G3 track at Lex/63.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Mark
Under the south mezzanine looking north on the outbound track A2 platform in Freindship Heights (A08)
John
Mark
p.s.---Stay safe---and keep a watchful eye out downtown...especially around the "Farraguts"
I would hazard a guess most here could not identify the station, including myself.
John
Look for something in the next few days.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
wayne
I'm so sorry I couldn't make the question harder. I was thinking of asking what line the train was on but decided that might be too much of a challenge...
I'm now waiting to find out Pam's rationale from Perry.
If the train is destine for Glenmont, How come I can’t see the opening in the side wall to the surface entrance elevators at the mezzanine level on the alleged south end of the station?
John
All I see is a row of lights hung from the vault. With a little gamma correction I am able to see the opening in the end wall of the train hall that connects to the short passageway to the escalator that go up to the rotunda under intersection of Western and Wisconsin Avenues.
Post the raw image from the camera so you can set me straight.
John
John
Ben F. Schumin :-)
That why I asked for the raw image. My old Kodak has the option to capture and store images in the flash memory at lower resolution to allow a larger number of images to be taken. How ever I have never used it and only use the 1162x864 maximum resolution option. I like to take pictures of higher quality then of lesser quality in greater numbers. I then make a copy the raw images then color correct them and optimize them for fast downloads on the web.
John
Ben F. Schumin :-)
She just mentioned that the few times she's been there, she's always had a hike to get to an escalator.
I can't remember the last time I was there to know where the escalators were in relation to where the train stops.
The policy might have changed sense 2001. One of the operator back in 2001 told me they close the door to the cab only making those two seats accessible during peek on the rear of the train. All other times the cab door is closed like the cab door on the front of the train.
John
Ok the policy has changed sense 2001.
John
It really is too bad that SEPTA seems to think the SVM, CCM and Rt100 KOP extensions are irrevocably joined. The projects could be built independent of one another so long as provision was left for the other project was built into the previous one. For example, the CCM is due to run to King of Prussia and share a ROW south of the mall with the Rt100, as such SEPTA thinks they need to be built at the same time. The same holds true for the SVM and CCM west of Norristown, they're going to share a bridge there, and SEPTA again thinks the catenary for CCM needs to be put in at the same time as SVM is under construction.
We could easily do Main Operating Segments that would sectionalize the projects and have a better time getting SOMETHING built rather than just having grand plans. A CCM MOS-1 might be an electification of the Trenton Cutoff from Trenton to Norristown TC or Elm St. Then as or after SVM MOS-1 is built (possibly just electrified to Pottstown), the CCM MOS-2 can proceed across the river to KOP and later Thorndale via the provision left for it on the Rt100 KOP's track. The Rt100 KOP really isn't that big a project, especially when compared to the other two projects, and as such doesn't really warrant a Main Operating Segment in it's construction.
SEPTA is currently at something of a crossroads, if they can get SVM, CCM and the Rt100 KOP extension built then they will have eliminated 3 highway buses that run late most of the time, improved transit to several areas growing by leaps and bounds, and filled a niche in the transit scheme around here that is desperately needed, yet largely unaddressed, a Cross-County connector. I think it's also important to remember that NYC could benefit from SEPTA's construction. Bucks and Montgomery Counties are quickly becoming near-suburbs of New York, and providing those people with a train bypassing Philadelphia and getting NYC commuters at least to Trenton (perhaps NJT could run through to Thorndale or Pottstown) would be a boon to all involved.
The CCM would be a great benefit to my town, which is going through all this developement, causing a lot of traffic, and has less bus service.... Not to mention a cross county route would be very convenient for lets say, those SEPTA Roadeos :). Also, New York would be so much closer too. The ridership is there, they just drive cars.
I dunno about NJT running a train through to Pottstown and Thorndale - that may be a little too far into PA, but you never know!
NJT doesn't have trackage rights on those lines. It's a state agency—for the wrong state. If enough money is allocated through the right sources, though, Amtrak could do it (consider the "Downeaster" model).
What is the Downeaster model exactly?
One thing that I thought was interesting. It was noted - in a press release - that the line's current owner, CSX, has been cooperative with NJ Transit officials.
That's a scary thought.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Welcome To The New York Subway. Unline Washington MetroRail and BART in the San Francisco Bay Area, one Regular ten trip MetroCard can be shared for up to four passengers at a time. However for the Unlimited One Day Fun Pass, each passenger must have their own MetroCard. At this time our Fare Vending Machine can only dispense one card at a time. So stand in line and enjoy the while while your fellow tourists are trying to figure this thing.
Love watching the crowds on Saturday at Grand Central......
Phil Hom
Stafford, VA
Stop and put yourself in a visitors shoes for a minute, then it becomse clear why you need such a sign.
As for the 30 seconds...there was no one behind me. We were the only people at the MetroCard machine. Had there been people in a hurry also wanting to use it, I would have let them go ahead of me.
These ads mentions Budd's early use of stainless steel-even in the auto industry. Budd has always been been a pioneer in stainless steel. The first ad (look closely) mentions Budd had the first all-stainless railway car! (Not even St. Louis or Pullman could do that!)
It's sad they're gone, too. They made a lot of really good equipment.
wayne
-Chris
Steamtown is a nice place with the restored roundhouse, freight yard, several active steamers, great ride and all those stuffed & mounted steamers.
Photo courtesy of RailRoad.net message boards
What is the locomotive, what are the cars trailing it and where is the location if possible?
*slight exaggeration
--Mark
--Mark
-Chris
Visitors who taken too many recreational drugs, and wish to purchase more, could use a new north entrance at the station, which would be more convenient for Camden Market.
Unfortunately they don’t show Only Fools and Horses on any of the available TV channels here—and before anyone says anything, yes I have BBC America, which is absolutely bloody useless. It’s all decorating and gardening!
Anyway, I am pretty sure that "dodgy" can be used in this context, as in "there are some dodgy looking ampules in that shop over there", or in the context of Camden Town "there are some dodgy looking ampules in every single one of these shops along both sides of the street"
Nitrites I presume, although not being a drug user myself, everything I said so far could be b******s, and they could just be to make the room smell nice.
The use of the word "bent" I've heard in slang (admittedly up in Birmingham) is as the opposite of "straight" - as in [whisper] "Johnson's bent", accompanied by strange looks.
The average American reader would need a translation (actually, definition) for "penultimate."
Well, it's the one after the antepenultimate one, isn't it? (8-)
I don't suppose the majority of Brits understand "penultimate" either.
As in the English schoolboy joke circa 1970:
“Antidisestablishmentarianism is a long word. Spell it.”
“I…T”
(I think my father asked me it first !)
NOTE: I do not work for WTOP, WGMS, WWZZ, Bonneville International Corporation, or any other media organization, and am merely posting this due to the possible interest of other people on this board.
WTOP Job Opportunities
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I also have train tickets from New York to New Brunswick, NJ, never used, and I am planning on using them (hopefully in the summertime). Unfortunately, the Republicans are also planning on being in town at the end of August, and that flame naturally drew the moth of Al Qaeda. So now Mom is urging me NOT to go into NYC until the summer is over, and I very much want to head into town before summer's end (all those summer park programs come to mind)!
My mom acts like this whenever she hears "terrorists" and "New York" in the same sentence on the news, urging a blanket ban on NYC travel. In this case, she wants me to avoid the city like the plague, even though the reporters specifically said that the bad guys were targeting the Citigroup building (which, btw, is above a subway station) and the NYSE, much more than the rest of town. So why not just avoid the banks?
Here's where Dad chimes in - "Yeah, and all access points to town are gonna be flooded w/ cops. Best not to go." This is part of a larger issue: I think that a)Mom and Dad are trying to micromanage my personal life, b)this is occurring too late in my life, c)their fears and concerns are often justified, but they often go a bit too far, and d)home is a bit too far away from the rails for comfort (so we have 3 cars, all owned by Mom and Dad).
Your comments?
-Chris
It's gotten to the point where she realized the threats are just threats and relaxed a little bit.
(1) care as much as they do
(2) are as supportive of your educational pursuits as they appear to be
Then, ignore them.
CG
However, as much as I believe in "don't let them scare you", the
hassle factor is going to be HUGE during the last week of August,
especially since you would be coming in via Penn. Stay away.
Or go during the next two weeks.
As for me, I believe in the New Hampshire motto - "Live Free Or Die." Those are the only two options - life free, or else life is not worth living.
I'm watching the morning news now - all of downtown will be subject to thorough screening of all vehicular traffic, demanding of ID from all pedestrians, restriction of access to areas to all but workers with identification and so on. It is actually making me sick, physically sick.
And I'm 56, but parents will be parents and will do what parents do.
*That* is a fact of life, and will not change. I return east to visit my parents once a year, and believe me, their role will never change. And maybe that is good. Some people here have good relationships with their parents, and others have unhealty relationships. Keep your relationship as healthy as possible, it will serve all of you well, but when it is time to go into the city or what ever, just go and do it.
Elias
I wouldn’t go during the week of the RNC Convention however. I just wouldn’t want to deal with the general hassles around NY Penn station at the time.
***This is ironic. Off-peak fares are not valid on peak-hour trains. Every Jersey Avenue train leaves during peak hours!
I feel far safer living less than a mile from the White House, than I probably would in a city of comparable size that is in a supposedly "safe area" of the country. If I were in NYC, I'd feel the same way. The bastards know we're on the lookout for them, so in spite of all their wishes to do something extravagant to hurt us, it would be far easier and rewarding for them to pull something off in a sleepy burgh far from a "glamourous" target like DC or NYC because it would do more to terrify the bejeezus out of people. Face it, NY, DC, and every other American city has had a bullseye on it since the Soviets got ICBMs. We survived that threat, we'll survive these times as well, as long as we stick to our guns and refuse to give up what America really stands for.
Try to help your parents (and other people you know who have a similar outlook) see that by letting paranoia and fear rule their thinking, they're handing the a*holes what they want on a silver platter faster than the folks down the road a ways from me can write legislation to do it. And, face it: You're a grown man who can make his own decisions, and you need to stand up for yourself as much as standing up against fear. Don't go out of your way looking for trouble or become reckless, but don't hide under the covers just because someone says you should.
BTW, congrats on post #750,000!
We're 3/4 of the way to a million posts!
Jimmymc
I'm job hunting and, with a half dozen cops on every tunnel-entry platform, this is the safest place in the country (of course, I'm not looking for a job at CitiBank). Live your own life. Not your parents', not Homeland Security's, yours.
Then again, count your blessings. Most 25 year olds I know are working, hustling for a buck and paying bills to keep the wolf away from the door. But they get to go to NYC whenever they want to...
Your pal,
Fred
If anybody knows LIRR they know B interlocking...Now listen to this idea...What if they were to electrify the B branch to Babylon and run service downthe mainline? So for example trains would make... PENN STATION.WOODSIDE.JAMAICA.NHP.MERRILON AV.MINEOLA.CPLACE.WBURY.HICKSVILE.BABYLON
HowCool
Dylan
I don't know about stations along the central branch, though. It might be nice to run your Patchogue trains high speed right into Hicks, Min, etc.
While we're on the subject of LIRR dreams - and maybe this should be a new thread - one thing that could be done is electrify the 2 track ROW known as the Bay Ridge branch to a cross harbor tunnel into lower manhattan. That'd be a long tunnel, but service to a new WTC complex is possible given the open state of construction there. Stations along the Bay Ridge? I don't see the need there either.
Of course east side access is possible via a terminal (junction) with the proposed SAS. The four LIRR/Amtrak tunnels to NYP run right under second ave. A couple of side platforms and an escalator should do it, No?
"one thing that could be done is electrify the 2 track ROW known as the Bay Ridge branch to a cross harbor tunnel into lower manhattan. That'd be a long tunnel, but service to a new WTC complex is possible given the open state of construction there. Stations along the Bay Ridge? I don't see the need there either. "
Run a tunnel from Bay Ridge to lower manhattan? IDK bout that one. Why not just run the tunnel from the LIRR Flatbush Av terminal? Be much cheaper and trips wouldn't take as long. Also, I think the Bay Ridge was really 4 tracks. Still, I think they should re-open it and run trains to Jamaica. As of now, it's a pain in the ass to get from lower Brooklyn to Jamaica. Re-open a few of the old stops, like that one near Brooklyn College, and ENY of course, then hell, even those lower montauk stations the trains would pass by.
"Of course east side access is possible via a terminal (junction) with the proposed SAS. The four LIRR/Amtrak tunnels to NYP run right under second ave. A couple of side platforms and an escalator should do it, No? "
Actually, RPA just proposed a Kipps Bay station, which, correct me if I'm wrong, would be right at 2nd av. Sounds like a decent idea to me. I think this same thing was planned years ago as part of a LIRR nassau county loop. Trains would loop around Nassau County via the central and the main lines, then go to NYC and loop around midtown.
I've neva seen it before today when I passed it on Hudson...
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/capconstr/esas/
Randy Mason
If the tunnels are built from GCT to Sunnyside would they ever run MNRR trains via HELLGATE back to New Rochelle? How would they do this, with CATS or opposite 3rd Rail because if its gonna be shared there would have to be two different types of 3rd rails or one type and cats...
Dylan
-Chris
in the long term, I believe the third rail silliness will have to be addressed. The ideal in my view is to ADD AC catenary into GCT and on the ex NYC lines. In turn the third rail shoes need to be cobvertible. All of this means big bucks.
If the tunnels are built from GCT to Sunnyside would they ever run MNRR trains via HELLGATE back to New Rochelle?
No and No.
What makes you think that there will be a connection between MNRR and Sunnyside? Am I wrong, or do I understand correctly that the LIRR will be coming into a new third level of GCT? (No shoes on the wrong feet there, eh?) Will there be a physical track connection at all? I do not know, maybe somebody does...
Why *would* they even want to do that? It is far quicker to run out Park Avenue than to have to fight with LIRR trains via sunnyside interlockings.
IIRC, tunnels into GCT are too low to accomodate statard cats, so no felids in there.
And no, AMTK moved out because they wanted ALL of their trains in one station. They have also arranged this in Philly and in Chicago.
Elias
and Amtrak did not want to move out of GCT they were mandated by passenger improvement act of 1972 or so to consolidate their New York operations, it took years to get empire connection and DV drawbridge rebuild.
I guess they wanted to comply with the law : ) , eh?
Elias
And please don't respond with "just a quick station stop". I've ridden amtrak enough to know that these "quick" stops can take up to 7 minutes a piece.
As for Sunnyside, I was saying that only b/c there are so many different bus and subway connections.
AMTK makes only one stop per city.
Elias
Boston isn't a city, it is an antique seaport that happens to have some buildings stuck in it.
:)-
Which different voltages? I was under the impression that both railroads now use a nominal 750V DC third rail.
If anyone has physical specifications on the third rail for either railroad (like this), please share 'em.
Therefore, I doubt that the LIRR and MNR will ever share tracks.
It's certainly not a problem that can't be solved, given enough money.
Can someone tell me why Amtrak Gennies (which I have been told at one point or another have third rail shoes for going into NYP) are capable of running on MNR trackage w/ 3rd rail? (I mean from Spuyten Duyvil to Croton Harmon) Wouldn't the shoes be sheared off as MNRs would if they went on LIRR trackage? I think I may have heard that Amtrak Gennies have retractable shoes, anyone know about this? Also, I am assuming that if Amtrak Gennies have 3rd rail shoes, that they are LIRR compatable, so they can run on the same tracks in NYP.
Do they rn on third rail through the whole empire tunnel (under riverside park)?
I have ridden the Lakesore Limited through that tunnel... No Third Rail there. Diesels to about the West Side Yard, then drop the shoe and go around the corner into the station.
The West Side Lion is well ventilated and can run diesels.
Elias
Co-op City would have a stop. I am not sure who here have even driven under the Amtrak ROW at Eastchester Road in the Bronx, but there is evidence of a once island platform right at Eastchester Road, evidenced by the wide space between 1 track and 2 track along the Corridor there, and a gated off, but clearly visible, wide stairway leading up to the tracks. Also there is a structure right over the line at Westchester Avenue by the #6 Train near Whitlock Avenue, where on the outside over the Amtrak ROW there are cut-off stairways down to the tracks, and cinder-blocked entrance and exitways (Note, it resembles the Metro-North station comlex at Fordham, where the structure housing Fordham Stations' ticket and waiting area closely resembles the abandoned structure at Westchester Avenue near the #6.) There is another similar structure south of this one just north of Oak Point Yard opposite the Bruckner Expressway. Stations have been planned along the route, but no one was sure where, and whether these, obviously, previous locations of stations, would ever be used.
The plan is on the table. When this will happen though is unknown, and with the present cries of deficit by MTA, it probably never will see the light of day.
As for equipment, since the P32AC dual-mode can be used to reach Penn from New Haven. Since Amtrak's can run on LIRR's third rail (to reach Sunnyside and ROW around Penn) and MNRR's third rail, it wouldn't be difficult to make MNRR's P32AC-DM as compatible. There were thoughts to make the NH Line M2/4/6 equipment compatible one of two ways: a). usage of retractable shoes to allow the M2/4/6 to run from Shell Interlocking (immediately west of New Rochelle) via the Corridor to Penn totally under catenary power, without usage of LIRR's third rail (which I think makes the most sense), or b). creation of a third rail shoe that can run on both MNRR third rail and LIRR third rail, with the equipment using catenary power from Shell to the junction with the LIRR just east of Harold, by Sunnyside.
As mentioned, the plans are there and have been discussed, but also due to MTA's cries of deficit, these plans, though making sense, might never see the light of day.
Well, if I am not mistaken, Amtrak P32AC-DMs use third rail on the Hudson Line (MNRR) third rail zone from Riverdale to Croton-Harmon, and since diesels are not allowed in the East River tunnels between Sunnyside and Penn, and the P32AC-DMs need to reach Sunnyside Yard for servicing and storage, and since they don't have pantographs and are not shuttled to the yard by AEM-7s, they do use third rail to operate through the East River tubes, then after exiting the tubes they can use diesel power in the yards. BTW....next time get the facts straight before making any responses!!
And BTW as well, I said there were plans on paper, nothing more. If there had been more, the studies would have been done already. Since MTA has money issues (supposedly), this plan will never, for now, see the light of day. Please read posts carefully before responding.
Yes....and let's see....who's 3rd rail is it again that runs through the east river tunnel? You know....as much as I'd like to believe you, I'm pretty sure it's LIRR's. And you know what that means. It means it's also LIRR 3rd rail in NYP.
Who needs to get their facts straight now?
They are trying to describe a third rail with an over-running shoe drawing 750 volts vs the MNRR (NYC) type of third rail with under-running shoes, or NYCT over-running rail at 600 volts.
Elias
-Chris
1896 - Brooklyn Bridge installation of 600vDC overruning open 3rd rail
1900 - Brooklyn Eleveted converted to 600vDC overrruning open 3rd rail
1901 - Manhattan Eleveted converted to 600vDC overrruning open 3rd rail
1904 - NYC IRT Subway, overruning covered 600vDC (subway) 3rd Rail
1905 - LIRR Initial Electrification, overruning 600vDC 3rd rail
1906 - NY Central GCT electrification, underrunning 600vDC 3rd rail
1907 - NYNH&H Harlem River electrification, 11000vAC Catenary
1908 - Hudson & Manhattan Tubes, 600vDC overruning 3rd rail
1910 - PRR Penn Station Project, 600vDC overruning 3rd Rail
1912 - NY Westchester & Boston, 11000vAC catenary
1915 - BRT/BMT 4th Ave Subway, 600vDC overruning 3rd rail
1925 - Staten Island Rapid Transit (B&O), 600vDV overruning 3rd rail
1927 - NY Connecting Hell Gate Bridge & Bay Ridge, 11000vAc Catenary
1930 - Delaware Lackawana & Western, 3000vDC Catenary
1932 - PRR conversion to AC, 11000vAC Catenary
1932 - IND 8th Ave subway, 600vDC overruning 3rd Rail
At the turn of the 19c, there were numerous new electric (600vDC overhead) trolley lines and horse car conversions in the NY City area, most of which, disapeared before 1950. Maybe someone could develop that list by area. The entire NYC (Manhattan) cable railway system was converted to Conduit underruning 3rd rail. The 3rd rail shoe was known as a plow on these lines. Some Manhattan and outlying horse car lines were converted to electric storage battery self propelled cars.
Add any of the recent New Jersey Transit new electrifications.
50th B'way
49th/7th
50-47/6th
51st/Lex
IIRC, the same holds true for downtown, near Houston St. With stations on. Was Houston not a big st?:
Bleecker St
Prince St
Spring St
One more thing, would it have made sense/been possible to build a station at 59/7-6th, in between? Or the 57/6 at 59/6 instead.
Thanks.
-Chris
It doesn't make sense to put stations at 59th on the edge of the park, because they can't attract large numbers of patrons from the north. At 57th they can at least attract two blocks' worth of people from the north, plus whatever they get from the south. 57th is also a much more important street than 59th in Midtown.
anyway, here's an article in the sunday ny times on the NY & Atlantic Railroad in long island. "Eat Your Heart Out, Dashing Dan"
IAWTP.
After the 30th post, you get to stack them up in a text file and see how soon after midnight you can post them all.
You are SO addicted. Please seek immediate help. Break the glass and sound the alarm. Man the lifeboats. BIE.
SubTalk is addicting. I think I need help.
"Hello, my name is GP38 Chris, and I am a SubTalker." There, I said it, it's the first step to recovery. : )
Anyway, seriously, as to the question at hand, I think Dave enacted the trial period "5 posts a day" a while back when there were some problems with some "new" people. I think he increases it to 30 once he figures out the new person will be a valid poster, and not some idiot trolling.
After the 30th post, you get to stack them up in a text file and see how soon after midnight you can post them all.
Yeah, that night I was writing responses as Word documents, and posted them the next morning. I see you waited exactly 1 or 2 seconds before posting again after midnight....
Download here:
http://www.privsoft.com/kevinmca/subtalk.exe Just like MTH trains, ready to run, no wrigglies guaranteed and no spammers will call. Free, no strings ... I now have EIGHT posts left ... watch me blow'em anyway. Heh.
Download it to wherever you want to run it from, for AUTOMATIC startup for youse slacker-type individuls, just save it to your STARTUP group! Starts automatically, or you can create a registry key of your choosing. Remembers how many you had if the machine's turned off or spits the bit. :)
http://www.privsoft.com/kevinmca/subtalk.zip Unzip to wherever you want it, and certainly no offense taken, shoulda thought of that. But then Billy breaks ZIP files too. :)
SIX posts left, I'm a goner. Heh.
It's a VERY dumb program - it's designed SOLELY to be a counter with a nice signal motif. It'll work the way you expect - RIGHT click on it and the adjustments (to reset to 30, to shut it down, etc) are there as well. I suspect it will work. I got *FIVE* left until midnight, I'm into squirrel mode, folks. Cold front came through, so I no longer have to blow on my nuts. Heh. Ah, another 30 hour day rolleth on.
-James
Tell us something we didn't already know.
On topic bit:
DLR train arriving at Lewisham (3rd Aug 04).
Your picture didn’t load as part of the page, but it exists (opened in a new window just fine).
Is FreeWebs another host that doesn’t allow you to embed images in pages hosted elsewhere?
OK, how about a neenermeter?:)
Hey how about when you get down to 3 posts, a call-on must be accepted for each of the last 3 posts. And if you try too many times to pass the "You're done" it becomes a signal overrun and you have to go downtown for a BAT.
When you only have 16 by 16 pixels for a traybar icon, there's limits, and no room for a bottom yellow or lunar. And as far as the community whiz, Dave Pirrman takes care of that - go ahead and try to pass zero. I dare ya. Heh.
Was just bustin' nads, bro. I know what a marker means and I do try to pass them but the damned train keeps going BIE and I never make it through the wall.
> When you only have 16 by 16 pixels for a traybar icon, there's limits, and no room for a bottom yellow or lunar. And as far as the community whiz, Dave Pirrman takes care of that - go ahead and try to pass zero. I dare ya. Heh.
You can pop up your spiffy window and give the callon from there.
I'm beginning to think I oughta charge for this thing if it's going to need future revisions. Heh. But as to the final three reds in there, I prefer to think of it all as AK's. =)
Now don't say that, although I only came in around the last month of this guy's time here, DefJef, he I believe only posted a few dumb subjects to cause trouble but would never respond to them in a theads to the responses of others. So it's not a fool proof way of finding trolls.
BTW, does anyone have any opinions on who the worst troll on this board ever was?
-James
Subway_Crash_Means_More_Money_For_Transit, by a landslide.
I can sleep better if I label him as just a troll. Some of his e-mails were truly sick.
The thing with BusFan is that he obviously intends to be a troll, but inadvertantly starts up some quite good threads.
Oh and who knows what E_DOG ever thought he was up to?!?
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Otherwise, WOW what a list!
WTF? Torontonians are people too.
If any other Torontonians are in your Killfile, then my Mr. Killfile gets his first meal.
If I can send a longer apology to you off this board, let me know.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
GMC TDH-4512-not a troll, an optimist(a good thing :)
jennyfromtheblock-troll
madision-No opinion, dont really know
NYCT TRAVEL EXPERT-not a troll
-Chris
All of your answers here(hopefully all)!
:)
-Chris
And BTW I apologize for getting involved, but just gettin' my daily post runs, as you'd put it.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Does that just apply to Canadians, or to all foreigners?
James
Birmingham, UK.
Um, I'm from NYC so does that mean I have no business discussing Toronto?
Don't you all have better transit things to talk about than who was the worst troll?
--Mark
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
So from me to you guys..think first before you toss out a name...and get ready to be flamed for it....
Not that I'm tryin' to get myself involved, but come on. Yeesh.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
That's the current content of my Killfile.
Anybody qualify?
Same here... When somebody annoying posts, I take the drastic action called "Don't Read It!" And I sleep very well at night :)
And sometimes I read it anyway - DefJef and his flamewars were sometimes worthwhile if only for the comic relief...
I wouldn't call some of those guys trolls though.
My killfile is empty. I've only ever once been tempted to add someone to it.
-James
Really, we don't get much grief here at all (you don't see the mass commercial postings and the scams). The worst problem is self-righteous dickheads who seem to believe in criminal standards of evidence as and when it suits them.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
In response to the pig, I wanted to start a good line of threads and I did. By responding to it, you made it more popular. LOL
-James
-James
woohooooo hijackin these british trains are so fun... mind the gap (between this post and reality)
Click the troll to enter:
Notice: The above pic and website are NOT mine, nor are they related. Thank you.
-Chris
What exactly is the benefit of choosing who are trolls on the site?
--Acela
www.nyctba.com
Also, 4traintowoodlawn posted something about the best subtalker ever a few months ago, so why don't we post something about the worst ones ever! You gotta cover all bases, buddy.
-James
But, seriously, there's really no point to making an entire discussion about "who trolls the most" -- Unless, you have more of an argument that will let me see the "true" point?
--Acela
www.nyctba.com
-James
Usually, if I hit the limit, I turn the PC off. Can be frustrating at times, when you really want to respond to something and you have to wait. There used to be a way around the limit (wink wink), but that trick no longer works.
In the past the quota has been as many as 50. It varies from time to time depending on how people are behaving in here.
# New users (after 4/19/2003) receive a daily post "quota" or limitation of 5 posts per calendar day. This is to help avoid spammers, troublemakers, etc. After a week or two of "good behavior" you may request your limit be raised.
I might suggest that posting on the board is not a good way to make said request.
Man, I gots to do 5, 30 with good behavior...
This is my last post until after midnight when the quotas are reset. That's what I get for wasting 10-15 posts in the wee hours of the morning. :-(
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
You can use it if u want: its
http://www.transitpics.com/4traintowoodlwawn_banner.gif
-Chris
No passenger transi... no wait, there was ONE passenger train in the 20 years I have been here, and that was an excursion train pulled by a steam locomotive, one of the big-boys or challengers I think.
I was working on my model trains, when I heard the whistle, and immediately regognixed it as a steam wistle rather than as a desiel horn, but by the time I looked out the window there was nothing to see.
Elias
http://www.sliceny.com/gopizza/images/SliceSubMap02.php
It's part of a site devoted to the New York pizza scene.
http://www.sliceny.com
They also have a special site for GOP'ers on the fine points of ordering a slice.
http://www.gopizza.net
Think twice!!! Only posts on the pizza subway map are on topic
Your pal,
Fred
Just harder to measure. NYCT claims that with all the discounts and free transfers added, the token-equivalent cost per ride is just $1.25, but it is going up. The pay per ride cost, with the 5/6 discount, is $1.67.
Perhaps the new rule is that a slice of pizza varies in a range between the average unlimited ride cost per ride and the average pay per ride cost per ride with discounts.
I think you mean Tremont Avenue in the Bronx.
Beginning at Coney Island (TOTONNO), take the Q to Avenue J (DI FARA), then the Q all the way to Canal, transfer to the 6 to Spring St (LOMBARDI'S), all the way up to 116 St (PATSY's). From there, go back to Lex Av/53 St to take the E or V to West 4 St (JOHN'S), then the A/C to High Street (GRIMALDI's), and then for our last stop: the A/C to Broadway Junction, transfer to the J/Z, all the way to Sutphin Blvd, to take the E to Forest Hills/71 Av (NICK's). ;-)
If anyone knows a better routing, feel free...
Try finding one at BeverLEY Road, when there is a pizzeria, 1 block south at Cortelyou Road.
Avenue H and Neck Road stations also are lacking a pizzeria nearby.
Are there any places around Avenue H and Neck Road stations?
Not next store to the station. But within 2-3 blocks away?
There are a couple of pizza stands in the track.
My dad asked this lady about another pizza store, and she said there was one "10 BLOCKS UP" on 145th and Lex or something like that. Thats insane.
When pizza parlors and Chinese take-out joints have bulletproof shielding, you know the 'hood is a dump.
On the other hand, the presence of a Starbucks means the area is on the rise.
Mark
Mar
-Chris
And what's your problem? Stop with the HTML bullshit.
-Chris
From CBS:
7:07 AM
NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT SUBWAYS : SERVICE SUSPENDED IN BOTH DIRECTIONS ON THE "M" TRAIN BETWEEN BROAD ST(MANHATTAN) - BAY PKWY (BROOKLYN) ++ ONGOING TRACK REPAIR WORK BETWEEN WHITEHALL ST(MANHATTAN) - DEKALB AVE(BROOKLYN) ++.
W is running normal to Whitehall
M is not running between Broad and Bay Parkway
R is still running via. Bridge Brooklyn-bound as per continuation of the weekend G.O.
No downtown service at Court and Lawrence.
I saw track workers still at Dekalb, cleaning up the mess.
Was this due to the work on the tiles at Dekalb?
In fact, what fast food company doesn't make your stomach churn? With all of the crap they put in there...
Ok, I guess you missed this small but relevant news story:
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040709_1679.html
Well, you're not intending on doing that, I hope.
Bet you could take some great shots with you shoe camera [GRIN]
You have to be politcally correct these days.
The only think I have heard is my idiot represetative in the City Council and State Assemble WANT TO KEEP IT.
These idiots think we would be losing VALUABLE EXPRESS SERVICE.
On wonder NY government is rated so low.
I also heard from that same employee that the T/O's and C/R's have no use for the skip stop either. Your opinion?
No seriously though, I don't really mind the 9. 1/9 skipstop or not, both does go to my destination (137st-City College). And I'm only going to CCNY for the summer anyway. Besides, if the 9 is to be removed, then, only one train line will be serving the local line. Even if they xfer the fleet the the 1, it'll still sound rather empty anyway.
If you lived at any of the skipped stops, you wouldn't feel as beignly about the 9 (or the 1 if you needed a 9). The real fact is that skip stop saves no more than 2 or 3 minutes if you are at all stop stations. If you are at a skipped station, you will, on average lose time.
No seriously though, I don't really mind the 9. 1/9 skipstop or not, both does go to my destination (137st-City College).
It almost seems obvious, but if you're at an all-stop location, naturally the 1/9 distinction doesn't matter to you. Either it is harmless, or you save a minute or two.
Most people think that the time saved for the all-stop passengers doesn't justify the confusion and/or time lost for the passengers at skipped stops.
There is also a hypothesis that, due to changing demographics in that area, the skipped stops may no longer make sense.
What sort of changed demographics?
Some stoonad City Councilman from Chinatown did a lot of grandstanding and posturing about how this would be the big body blow to his district, and insisted that the M train service be extended to the late evening hours to help plug the gap. What happened? You had ( almost literally ) empty M trains rumbling all the way to Bay Parkway until way after the rush hour.
But this imbecile City Councilman was able to say that he " came through " with " valuable service " for his district. Only thing, his constituents had no desire to catch this train, which ran empty. There were no crowds at Bowery station ( any more than there is today )
NYC seems almost incapable of self-government in these things. City Councilmen will defend any existing service, even if it is not of any value to their constituents. If you think you'd be better off without the 9, take this sumbitch on.
What about we talk about something cool, like, does anyone know why those new artec buses used for RAPID TRANSIT in Boston are making weird noises? Like, when they accelerate, they make a squealling noise as if a belt needs attention or the tires are spinning, or something. Anyone know what the problem is? They are barely 3 months old.
Yeah, I could have posted this over on BusTalk, but no one goes there and it's not Subtalk. Anyway those buses are in Rapid Transit service.
Why are there now so many more rules and "polite" reminders on Subtalk?
Is it boring, or have I changed? Have my interests diverged from those of Subtalk? The old timer regulars should tell me if I'm really not welcome here anymore.
AEM7
Getting back to the issue of the buses. I really don't know anything about that, but u made me think of something with the noise when it accellerates. I think this may have been discussed before, but why do the R-142s make a violin noise when they accellerate?
-James
This has been discussed before, but I was unable to locate it on google. I guess the google people didn't index the entire thing.
Short answer: AC traction motors require a variable frequency input depending on the speed and the stage of acceleration; the frequency happens to be in the audible range, and you hear that as a rising "violin" sound -- the sound comes from parts vibrating against each other at the frequencies of the driving current.
you need to serch some of the topics,first...maybe you have out grown this board.....if youi couldn't find ONE THING THAT GRABED YOU...[incidently speaking..the BRT in Boston sucks...it is a BUS not a train or LRT]
In any case...take a brake from here untill YOU SEE something worth responing to if your that upset about it...
why do the R-142s make a violin noise when they accellerate?
This has been discussed before, but I was unable to locate it on google. I guess the google people didn't index the entire thing.
AEM7s answer:
Short answer: AC traction motors require a variable frequency input depending on the speed and the stage of acceleration; the frequency happens to be in the audible range, and you hear that as a rising "violin" sound -- the sound comes from parts vibrating against each other at the frequencies of the driving current.
Alex, that is why we ***N*E*E*D*** you here, technologically savvy discussion of rail equipment is FAR more interesting than politics. Politics just gets people mad. (including myself)
Are you sure it is G-F-E and not a series of sliding sounds starting on the notes G-F-E? If the train speed is changing (continuously), I find it bizzare that the frequency isn't changing (i.e. notes sliding). If that's the case, you must be hearing some other mechanism, and not the traction current harmonics.
It would be interesting to do a Fourier analysis on that soundbite to see whether it really sounds like a violin; and if a violin, whether it be a cheapy Chinese thing or a Stradivarius. Care to send me an MP3?
AEM7
From Tony Woof's Electric Traction page
There are probably more rules and "polite" reminders because sometimes we get a little rowdy and start saying things we shouldn't. We get into flaming wars and stuff and we ain't talking about trains or buses anymore. I'm sure certain people will say something like that when they answer me. Hopefully I'm wrong.
Should we set up a web-based petition on one of those free websites?
It's you, me & the other "old timers".
How often have you seen a post & were going to reply, only to find someone else gave exactly that answer ?
How often have you seen a post, and thought: been there, done that ?
Maybe you need to channel your interest in a more physical way, e.g. a museum ?
I enjoy going out to dinner after the day is done with a group of colleagues !
As much as I love trains, I would rather spend $200 on say, a weekend in Maine with my girlfriend. The cost/benefit ratio for MOD trips or other railfan activity just never work out.
I suppose railfan activities are inherently expensive. I have never thought of it that way until now.
Maybe you need to channel your interest in a more physical way, e.g. a museum ?
I'm a member at Seashore. But I have no private transport, and thus am almost never there. Besides, I almost always seem to have more important or pressing matters to tend to at the weekend, like: do the laundry or the dishes, or eat out, or go to a movie. I would really love to spend more time at the Seashore, but the same cost/benefit problem arises -- A trip to the Seashore for me would cost at least $100, while doing dishes at home and then eat out for the evening and then go to a movie would cost $75. I could spend my weekends either way and be equally happy.
I enjoy going out to dinner after the day is done with a group of colleagues!
I prefer lazing around at home, checking my e-mail, writing my blog, or tinkering with my CPU collection.
AEM7
Why not a weekend in NY with her and the MOD trip. I'm sure a weekend in Maine with her would cost a lot more than 200 bucks. I would try sometime if I were you, overall it would probably be cheaper and more fun than Maine, but I guess that depends on your interests.
-James
Michael
Let me think... what about a 11th Ave Subway?
AEM7
Here is a picture of William Menden:
I got the impression though from the building that it might have been BoT offices in its entirety or some such at a prior time, that's what I'm curious about ...
W Broadway Local
M-60 Bus
In my 11 years at Columbia have walked all the lawns & eaten in all the student cafes.
Also, the entrance to the IRT was changed very quickly in 1968 or 1969 to two entrances on the sidewalks of Broadway because a student was hit by a car running to the center entrance and died from his injuries.
W Bwy
Bob
W Broadway Local
Bob
I know that the Park Avenue median was narrowed in the 1920s.
Incidentally, the building on the median at 96th St. appears to have been built as a set of rest rooms. Does anyone know if there was ever any intention to use that as a station house? There is nothing to suggest it inside the station.
Bob
At left is Barnard College; at right is Columbia University. Both Universities stretch back to 120th Street, which is the first nearest cross street beyond 116. Behind Barnard one of the spires of Riverside Church is visible, and one of the Teachers' College buildings is visible just beyond the northern border of Columbia University.
Let's see... the most profound differences between "then" and "now:"
The station house on the median is gone - in its place are the usual sidewalk entrances, one on each side of Broadway at 116th.
116th St. is now closed to vehicular traffic east of Broadway, where it goes through Columbia University - it's now a brick-paved pedestrian path known as College Walk.
There are more buildings present. Present-day map of area You can see several buildings which were added after the picture was taken, particularly on the left (Barnard) side. The vantage point of the picture is right where it says "IRT" in the diamond, looking up (north)
There are some great pics of the neighborhood today here, including shots of the 125th St. station on the 1/9 - the big arch across Broadway at 125, a shot of the Riverside Viaduct which carries Riverside Drive above 12th Ave over the 125th St. valley. There's also a picture of the 117th St. gate, which is the gap between the two nearest buildings visible on the right side of the old picture.
Here's a (tiny) view of the same area, looking north along Broadway somewhere about 116th:
Sorry, but that was the best I could find for now...
???
I thought Riverside Church was on Riverside Drive, and was built in the 1930's.
Looks like it. The fact that the seminary was built in 1910 helps date the photo; I had thought it was taken earlier, right after the IRT opened.
You'd think I would know this, living in the neighborhood and all. Unfortunately that view is now obstructed by buildings at Barnard (in addition to my inability to see from such a high viewpoint as in the picture) so I've never seen things from that vantage point before.
OH MY GOD! I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY PERSON WHO NOTICE THAT!!! It sure is.. as a manner of fact, I can see that structure by standing on my friend building right hear in astoria!!!!!
THERE IS NO STRUCTURE LIKE THAT IN THE WORLD! IT JUST OVER SHADOWS EVERYTHING!!!!
W Bwy Lcl
W Bwy
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
The station was unique in that the northbound and southbound tracks were on two different levels and from the center of one of the platforms looking across the trackway you could see another set of tracks descending from the ceiling and ending up about 8 feet above the platform at the end of the station. You could only see the wheels and bottom half of the windows of the trains on these descending tracks and it was pretty loud. It looked cool though. If I remember correctly these were D trains.
I've looked at the track maps here and the station descriptions but cannot remember exactly where I was. Does anyone have any ideas?
Thanks in advance.
Prospect Park (BQS),
Chambers Street (JMZ),
Chambers Street (1239),
and DeKalb Avenue (BMQR)
have platforms which split levels at mid-station.
wayne
I need to know were then ANY trains shutdown or re-routed due to a so-called terrorist alert anytime today?
Somebody claims this is true, but I have a very gut feeling that this is a lie.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
My apologies for the CAPS in the Broad Street thread, I didn't know what was going on until I reached Dekalb and found out the real deal.
Maybe I should take some pictures of the tourists taking pictures of the NYSE building, tomorrow. What do you think?
-Chris
AFAIK, neither do any of us when we take pics of the subway. So what is your point?
Uhh, maybe it has something to do with the fact Wall Street is a public street and the subway is TA property. I doubt people are taking pictures of the trading floor from the gallery.
I was down around there on lunch hour, 12:30 or so, and it was quite a zoo scene. Not only were there throngs of tourists and media types, but there was a noisy union demonstration a block south and then several chix performing some sort of modern dance on the steps of Federal Hall.
As for the photos, I saw something that made me laugh. There were some of those Emergency Services cops with machine guns* deployed around the NYSE. A couple of tourists were taking pictures of one of them from no more than ten feet away. He just stood there holding his gun, with a totally blank expression on his face. I was sort of wondering what it would take to get a rise out of him.
* = I used to think those cops were menacing, but now I find them faintly ludicrous, sorta like children with toy guns playing Cops & Robbers.
"He just stood there holding his gun, with a totally blank expression on his face. I was sort of wondering what it would take to get a rise out of him. "
You know dam well I ain't gonn be the one to find out!!!!
And you didn't either!!!! (don't blame ya !!!!!)
I got tourist shots of it all. :)
Like rain on your wedding day.
"There's going to be an Al Queda attack.....We don't know where, we don't know when. Where does the info come from, the Central Intutive Agency? Is there a crystal ball at the FBI?
I'd rather talk about streetcars, trains and subways.
:)
http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/26077.htm
This, as well as all other dispatches related to our color-coordinated pants staining is based on examination of two laptop computers found in a raid in Pakistan of Al Qaeda operatives. On those hard drives were structural plans, photographs and details of the structural design, security plans and other detailed information about certain buildings that were included in the alert. According to CNN and NBC News, all of the photographs and other data PRE-DATED September 11th. No time frame for this "attack" suggested by the presence of this data allegedly exists. It was merely the PRESENCE of this data on these machines that prompted this reaction.
According to a friend of mine who works in the CitiCorp tower in NYC, the warning was heeded and not many people showed up for work there today. My buddy dscribed it as "about as staffed as any SUNDAY." Can you IMAGINE what would have happened had those computers contained RAILFAN PICTURES? :(
So while the "Bushbash" in ongoing over the creation of a new "intelligence agency" when three years ago, a "Department of Homeland Security" was created, here we go again with a redundant agency and more "bigger government" when apparently the REAL problem is that the administration didn't do what they were supposed to do in the first place. Check THIS out ...
http://www.themetalith.com/resources.html
Original Homeland Security organization:
http://www.themetalith.com/hsorgchartoriginal.html
What the current administration built:
http://www.themetalith.com/hsorgcharttoday.html
So now the 9/11 Commission comes along and says, "what happened to the ORIGINAL plan?" Just like all the other times there's been bad press, a diversion has apparently been created. :(
(and folks wonder why I have the attitude I do about the Pecker in Chief)
Today's Financial Times had a quote from a hedge fund manager who worked right near the Citicorp building, and was going to work from home due to terrorism fears. I mean, the dude's managing a hedge fund, of all things, and he's afraid of risks?
And again I ask (I really INTENDED it to be ON TOPIC) ... what if that laptop had RAILFAN PICTURES? Would they have closed the entire subway system? :(
Some guy on ch 7 last night, a terrorism expert, pointed out that Ridge had used the warning to kind of up the administrations efforts on the "war on terrorism" & it really wasn't the time & place to do so!!!
What I'd really love to see is NYPD totaly foil a plot, on thier own without Ridge & co!!!
Jimmymc
ps....bye the way where's the $$$$$ for this lattest hullabaloo comming from?
Since WHEN is it NYPD's job to "protect the nation against foregin enemies?" I always thought that was the purpose of the military and in VERY specific particular, that of ... THE NATIONAL GUARD? Oh yeah, they're over in Iraq protecting Halliburton. ALSO at OUR expense. But if you wonder why New York's in such DIRE financial straits, look no further than the Shrub administration and a twitchy sphincter. Where's the ONE conservative purpose of our NATION and our MILITARY whose purpose is to protect us against foreign enemies? Oh yeah, like everything else about these republicans, make demands of localities and stick them with the bill so the rich can have another tax cut. :(
But my point was about NYPD catching some of Osama's boys up to something that didn't come from the Feds!!!
Maybe they already have....& I would guess that it goes onto the blotter as maybe a couple of college kids from the mideast with a DWI!!!!
I just don't know what to think anymore!!!
But taking rights away ain't gonna stop the Osama bunch!!!!
Jimmymc25
ps...maybe laying off of some stuff would empower the cops to do so much more!!
While I'm not a photo taker & I just got a camera phone, which I don't have a bloody clue about etc!
In these times....NYPD should want any help opinions any one of the many photogs here could give them!!!!
A couple of my buddies with a local city police department have been complaining about this over beers. In essence, "they want me out there without a blast suit and without a gottamn tank to stop these guys? Ummm, OK, I empty my revolver, I don't have an Uzi, now what?" And universally, they're PYTHED about all the extra nonsense on top of an already tough job. I do understand all the points and wonder HOW our so-called leader can foist the job of the federal military onto patrol officers not properly equipped for a military mission. Then again, we're sending our military over there without body armor and bullets while we debate who's a socialist and who deserves to be re-elected.
Betcha 3-1 that there's another "alert" October 31 (Trick or Treat).
I really wanna talk about rail.
They're putting razor blades in apples!
Oh wait, that one's been around for decades.
While Laura Bush ponied up to the breakfast along with Paturkey, Senator Chuckie and Bloomey, hubby was back at the White House with Ashcroft (what kind of man sends his WIFE into danger and doesn't accompany her? But I digress, no REAL surprise there) and when he did his press conference Monday morning he seemed to be HEAVILY sedated based on his slurred and stumbling speech (maybe that article I linked to IS correct) and continued to do precisely what the terrorists WANTED - AMERICA living in fear. Used to be that the terrorists were going to blow up New York under a "nukular" kloud. Then we were all going to die in a "bilogical" attack. Then it was going to be "kemmikals and weapons of mass destruction." Now, the same Pavlovian effect is reached by saying "truck bomb" ... and America flips out.
Sadly, this "doing the work on behalf of the evildoers" by our OWN politicians must have Osama giggling like a school girl. I am *so* ashamed of the formerly brave and proud country once known as "America." :(
So go about your lives ... DUCK! Maybe I wouldn't MIND so much if only the administration would cover the CO$T$ of all this political foolishness. But no, in addition to this nonsense, we get stuck with the bill too. :(
ISTEA was a cool bill. I think politicains were on that one. And then when TEA21 come out I was all bummed out because like I wanted there to be LEMONAIDE (that would be the bill to pay for the R-142/A order).
But then Bill Clinton moved to Massapwchua, no, Chappamasserewroqa, no, Massapeekcha, oh I dunno. But when a BILL becomes a LAW, then the police have to enforce.
Which Broad St were we talking aboot?
I can't afford to go out and see a damned movie, much less "go about my life" as my taxes exceed my income. And for what? Sending in the NYPD to do the National Guard's entire purpose in existing? Not that I would deny NYPD the overtime, but a local city police force should NOT be required to replace the United States Military when we were attacked by a FOREIGN POWER. :(
And how ABOUT that fare hike?
Ok time to take this to the streetz I mean OFF LINE
Sometimes you have to wonder about why people have to resort to conspiracy theories when politicians they don't like act. Given recent poll numbers, the Republicans don't have to do anything to distract people from the Democratic National Convention.
You see ... Ronald Reagan, Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney CREATED Usama (proper spelling) as part of the Muhahideen (proper spelling) way back when to take care of a certain Afghanistan problem. They also created the Taliban and Usama (or "UBL" as they call him) was front and center in the plot. But Bush scrood Usama and thus when junior Bush was "selected" it all came back home to the US. Now WHY were we so interested in Afghanistan? Behold ...
http://vsubhash.blogspot.com/2003/08/road-to-moral-volcano.html (The LEFT wing view, read it please)
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/index.htm (the United States National Security Agency view - a must read also)
I'm sorry that you guys got short-sheeted in both your education and your media enlightenment, but blaming Clinton, or even Shrub is a target missed by better than twenty years. But then, the truth is only what it's spun to be, no? :(
The radio tells me plenty of people showed up yesterday. Yet they didn't say anything specific. I dont' know what they consider plenty, but I didn't really believe that to be the case. Go figure.
To be topical, IMAGINE if those were pictures of NYC subway stations that they found in those four year old files. :)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
Sorry I didn't sign your guestbook; mom doesn't let me. No offense, honest.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
#1 When u make a citizen's arrest, you better be 100% sure and without the shot of a doubt that that person is in the wrong.
#2 U better have some proof he vandalized a train, like a digital or cell phone camera so u can show some proof, otherwise there is really no reason for his arrest in the eyes of anyone else who didn't see him do it.
#3 How do u plan to stay hidden, someone is going to see you under there. What if some old lady sits down and moves her feet under the seat and feels something and sees a guy hiding in dark cloths, u might get beaten with her cane or something. LOL
#4 Last, jailing them for 50 years is way too much, u realize killing someone you can get less in some cases. (And in some cases nothing like OJ Simpson) It's not worth that much, and I don't think the MTA currently jails them for 50 years, but I think that's a little too much.
I really think the MTA keeps vandalism under control very well already by cleaning the trains at every terminal and whipping away even the smallest traces of graffiti, and if it's too much the train is taken out of service immediately and brought back to the yard for a better cleaning. I'd rather u go after swipers and turnstiles jumpers instead of vandalizers. What do u think of that idea?
-James
If the person beats me with a cane, I can just turn toward the car's side so I don't get beaten in the face. I can take beatings. I intentionally run into walls for comedy on a daily basis BTW.
As for the time the idiot must serve, well I'll just leave that to the NYPD.
IDK about going after swipers rather than vandals. Vandals make me angrier. :-P
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
No wonder you have some really ditsy post.
-James
Regards,
Trevor Logan
-James
-Chris
http://www.transitpics.com/subtalk1_WEB1.gif
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
^-^
You know how hot it gets under those seats?
...and I have two words for you-
"White Castle"
Yes, I'd ride hidden under the seats and I don't care HOW hot it gets.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
There are SO MANY things I could say that just shows how you simply don't care about anyone's well-being but yourself, but I'd probably be violating the TOS on this site.
So you would stay hidden under the seats while you have KFC chicken, garbage, nail clippings, gum, spit, and other unmentionables all within reach? Rock on, brotha???? -_-
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
As for funding, I'd really do it free. I only want $30 for a new toy car.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-James
Have 'em do Chambers Street first. ;-D
-Chris
Have 'em do Chambers Street first. ;-D
At the point when they see it, wouldn't they rather go to jail than clean that 'mess'? ;-)
Your ideas are simpleminded and unworkable. You have to accept a reasonable level of abuse for such a public system. Thank god you're not living through the 1970s and 80s, and try to come up with workable solutions to real problems facing the system. I'm not saying Graffiti isn't a problem, but at this point it certainly isn't the number one priority.
This is my last post 'till after mignight when the post quotas are reset.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Need any more?
SAS
Ever see two of those tan ice-salt storage structures side by side? I've seen it in Jersey. Rofl.
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
:-P
:-P
:-P
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Please, I never run out of bad ideas. :-P
I'm sure thats what you meant, right?
I'm sorry, but I just really started ROTFL when I pictured the entire thing in my head.
-James
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Da Hui
-Chris
Da Hui
til next time
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Da Hui
til next time
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Exactly.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Enough of them might get you to think what you've said.
-James
And our resident 12-year old subtalker needs to learn one of these days that not all ideas are plausible and reasonable. This idea is so outlandish, it can only be implemented in the movies and in a magical fantasy world where the roads are made of yellow bricks and trees guide the elderly.
Ben (4traintowoodlawn) is usually a quality poster. But lately, his posts have been a bit too childish for adult tastes, and for adult reasoning. I would ask him to think a bit more logically before posting, but again, he's only 12.
-Jason Brown (a.k.a. G1Ravage)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn) who promises to think straight now!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-James (a.k.a. Broadway Buffer)
XD
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
NO!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Good luck with that.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
From Reuters:
LONDON - A poster campaign urging people not to eat smelly foods on London’s overcrowded and overheated underground system has sparked a diplomatic incident with Italy.
The poster showing an overweight and Mediterranean-looking man lounging in an underground train carriage surrounded by hams, salamis and strings of garlic triggered a torrent of letters from angry Italians and even the Italian ambassador.
“We considered this poster to be very offensive to the Italian image, Italian products and the Italian company that is clearly identified,” the Italian Embassy’s economic counselor Guido Cerboni told Reuters. "It is a caricature of Italians.”
Under the avalanche of Italian outrage, London Underground has apologized and agreed to withdraw the poster.
“We apologize for any offense this has caused the Italian community. It was meant to be a light-hearted attempt to stop travelers eating smelly food,” a spokeswoman told Reuters.
Cerboni said the embassy now considered the incident closed, but he expected the company whose label is visible in the poster to sue for damages. “It has clearly suffered damage,” he said.
??? There is no mention of the EU in the article. The Italian Embassy in London was complaining to the UK Government, and quite right too. If the NYC Subway put up an ad that seemed derogatory to ethnic Italians, how much noise do you think would be heard in NYC? A lot, I rather think!
If there were no EU as things are now, no such thing would ever happen.
I still don't understand your point. Even if the EU had never existed, the Italian government would still object to derogatory stereotyping of Italians.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
What is this - are Italians ashamed that some Italians are fat? I'm a semi-fat Italian and I know a lot of fat Italians and a lot of skinny Italians too.
The point is, if they make it a fat Italian, the Italians complain. If they make if a fat Greek, the Greeks complain. If they make it a fat Chinese guy, the Chinese complain. If they make it a fat black guy, the blacks complain. If they make it a fat Martian, the Martians complain. And then if everyone decides that depicting fat people of any ethnicity opens up Pandora's Box and only depict skinny people from now on, then the fat people get upset that only skinny people are pictured in ads and sue. Then when an ad appears with a fat German, the Germans start complaining. And so on.
It's a cousin of NIMBYism - you can make fun of anyone as long as it's not me. And everyone thinks the same way, but in mutually exclusive ways (you can't please one without pissing off the other).
wayne
-James
(the ad uses Waterloo & City Line 1992 Stock, as these still have their armrests!)
It's more against the people then the food. The food is use as an example to demean the people.
Like I said before all people of a certain ethnic and racial group don't look the same. I find it insulting and I'm not even italian.
W Broadway Local
While there is a reason to be offended by this some people are offended by too many things tho. For example, in Brooklyn where I live at every boarder crossing with another boro (like the Verezanno Bridge) there is a sign that says "Leaving Brooklyn: Fugetaboutit" That got a few Italians very angry and many wrote to the Boro President demading it be taken down. Fortuantly, they decided NOT to take them down, which is good, cuz I'm Italian and I love seeing it.
-James
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
W Bwy
As far as the carabinieri go, I find them mildly amusing, posing with their big guns and clapped out Alfa Romeos, waiting to do someone for speeding, then climbing in and waving a paddle with a red dot on it out of the window. I mean, these guys have big guns, sirens, flashing lights, a horn and indicators, and they still wave a ping pong bat out of the window...
Yes, the ad is offensive, and I can see why they are angry.
But, I'm Italian, and I know the food smell can stay with you for days. My most memorable experience was when my grandmother fried garlic and onions while I was getting ready for piano lessons in third grade. When I got to my lessons, my teacher softly told me it was time I wore deodorant.
C'mon, you always know when an Italian on the subway is coming home from Grandma's Sunday dinner
And not all italians look like the picture you see.. Olive skinned, dark hair/eyes and fat. Some are acutally very white, blonde hair/blue eyes in appearance.
They also don't all eat the same foods.
W Broadway Local
let's face it, it not the smelly stuff going in your mouth that's the problem, its the foul-smelling gas that comes out of their ass.
Also goto BVE-ROUTES and Train-sim.com etc... for more info.
The Post defending rail construction? I'm stunned. Unfortunatley, the senseless NIMBYism described here doesn't suprise me one bit.
Please tell me they are in the minority on this one...
Please tell me they are in the minority on this one...
They are in the minority on this one.
Sadly, yes.
Please tell me they are in the minority on this one..
Yes, they are. Those quotes are from the relatively few persons who'll be directly affected by subway construction, business owners and paranoid residents of buildings who'll have station exits built next to or inside them. The utter ignorance (What's a spoil shaft and why can't it be moved to another street?) and the hysteria (The SAS will put Jews in danger!, I know Hillary Clinton!) are things to be ridiculed, not feared.
I'd love to hear the rationale behind that one... :)
And this just made me think that many New Yorkers will have easier accsess to Katz's (SAS stop at Houstopn) than to the 2nd Ave. Deli.
Thank goodness those opinions are in the minority.
A side question: Since the SAS is planned to have fewer stops than most lines, will the platforms be longer than normal?
Most likely not, it'll probably be typical B-division length (600').
I wish they'd build a 63/2nd station so people from Queens might have a chance to transfer to it. It would relieve pressure on the R and on the Lexington transfer at 53&51/Lex for those going south of Fulton St.
I've always advocated a station not at 55th, but at 57th St. with a transfer to the BMT. This would give Astoria riders an easy x-fer to the new subway.
I'm glad someone else agrees with me.
W Broadway Local
1) MTA insists on all entrances being within building storefronts. In addition to killing several long-standing and popular businesses it also seems that up to 200 residential tenants would have to be relocated. If you know anything about 2nd Ave many of these are older tenements inhabited by people living there under rent controls. Trying to find a comparable place/rent for these people is a real consideration.
2) As many of us east siders have witnessed, these large scale projects are allways plagued by cost overruns and delays. When the revival of this project was first mentioned five years ago the cost was estimated at 1-2 billion, we are now at 20b, and counting.
I know that the sympathies here are for construction as are mine, but as a long time resident of the area I can assure you that aside from the idiotc display at that meeting, there are both real concerns and frankly, real power in this neighborhood, if the salient issues are not addressed and negotiated in good faith, this ain't gonna happen.
-Lino
FIVE years ago, for $1-2 billion? Not bloody likely, even for just the "stubway," which was what was initially proposed in this go-around. This sounds more like TWENTY years ago, but the project wasn't in active discussion 20 years ago.
David
David
Why? If this is such a point of contention, why not give it up and build the entrances like they've done since the beginning?
I'm becoming more and more convinced that the MTA is turning this thing into a giant elephant that nobody wants by insisting on ridiculous designs (2 tracks only with *absolutely no* provision for subsequent expansion, only a single track connection to the rest of the system, insisting on entrances being within storefronts, no express service, no connections to outer boroughs with no plans to do so anytime soon, making the construction schedule get longer and longer and longer, etc.) - hoisting it by its own petard - so they can say they tried to build the line but there was too much opposition. Hey, it's not our fault that a zillion people crowd onto the Lex every day - we tried to build another line, but you guys pooh-poohed it!
David
Which ones? Most of the buildings at the proposed sightings of stations and other acess will, according to current plans require evictions, seizure and demolition through imminent domain or heavy modifications. The results of the plan as currently proposed will be disasterous to those affected.
While i would not directly be affected by this plan, it's foolish not to see the torrent of lawsuits that an inflexible approach will bring. Robert Moses and his "style" is dead.
David
I suggest a trip to among others, Main st Flushing, Ft Washington ave on the A.
I have noticed several modern buildings that have seeded areas such as Yorkshire Towers on 86th st (early '60s white brick) these could easily be slightly scaled back to accomodate stairs and elevators.
Remember that since there will be a mezzanine at each station, it will only be necessary to find ONE corner at east stop to accomodate an elevator and another for stairs or escalator.
You take as example the 63rd /Lex station.
Da Hui
Ah, nothing like an even-Steven, no-clear-winner brawl :)
The passanger clearly won. The C/R will be disciplined, the passanger gets to file a lawsuit. If this story is true, I can't confirm it anywhere else.
It was even in the sense that the injuries were roughly equivalent. No one got owned.
As for discipline, the C/R might just have been defending himself. If so, he shouldn't be disciplined.
Go back and read the original post. It said a verbal altercation escalated into a physical one. It does not say who hit whom first. Of course, since the original poster was rushhourstupi, uh, rushhourspecialist, chances are we're arguing over a non-event.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=745885
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r62.html
There are no R-62 singles, only R-62A singles, and AFAIK, R-62's do not run in service with R-62A's, but I could be wrong.
So it seems like you saw an R-62 (3) which could not have had an R-62A single style railfan window.
Perhaps this is what happened?
1) What causes the screeching?
2) I've also noticed that the R44/46's, R62/A's, and R68/A's rarely ever screech. Do these have a special mechanism to make them silent?
Also, why are other car types more prone to screeching?
The R142A and R143 have a form of screeching, but it's not as high-pitched as the R32's.
-Chris
-Chris
Only on the R142s.
THose R32s are mighty loud when screeching - plus it is amplified in the subway station.
wayne
\\Julian
My mistake.
\\Julian
First, the friction brakes are not supposed to applied until the dynamic brakes slow the train to well under 10 mph. The fact that the screeching starts at "normal" speed, means that either the dynamic brakes are not functioning or there is something wrong with the cutout mechanism.
Second, the friction brakes are not supposed to screech. The sound is generated because some component in the friction brake assembly is vibrating. It was not designed to vibrate.
Also, depending on loudness, it might also be illegal for the TA to operate that train.
REAL men don't NEED lockout magnets ... we can blow REAL air. :)
1) you're kidding
and
2) this is the new handle of Mr. H. G. ??
But yep, it's our buddy from the place closer to me - FINALLY figured it out, but nobody ELSE needs to know since he's in the cab WITH KEYS incognito - yes, it's the "mystery TSS" ... hahahahaha.
\\Julian
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I was surprised to learn that the biggest roadblock to constructing a subway in Jerusalem is not security but archaeology. It seems that almost every time there's a big dig in Jerusalem, say to put up an apartment building, numerous biblical artifacts are found, requiring the construction work to completely halt while the Antiquities ministry has the chance to fully explore the site for further finds.
What I will say however is that on my trip to Israel (plus a corner of the Palestinian territories and the Lebanese/Jordanian borders) 2 winters ago I was completely blown away with joy when I finally deciphered all the hebrew signs in J'lem marking construction areas for the Light Rail along Yafo (Jaffa) Road. They all had the word "Moriya" on them, which may be the construction company, or the name they're giving to the Light Rail system. "Moriya" is one of the more ancient names for the mountain under the Dome of the Rock, where the jewish Temples used to be. If that is the name they're giving to the LR, it would continue a pattern started with Haifa's "Karmelit" funicular train, which is named after the mountain (Har-Karmel) that the city of Haifa is built on.
BTW, there's a deep underground station proposed for under the convention center/bus terminal. http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=753066&fid=1725 This would serve a new (heavy rail) line connecting with Tel Aviv (the current line, closed and being rehabbed, is a slow, circuitous and very scenic run.) There's been some controversy over how to best implement this service http://www.jda.gov.il/english/railroad.htm
http://new.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/DocView.asp?did=631477&fid=1725
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1082260228760
50 million.
Oh wait, that's how many people died in You're-a-peein' wars of the Twentieth Century.
In Europe, anti-semitism is a pro sport and so Europeans have no credibility whatsoever when talking about Israel. Europe consists of cowards, bloodthirsty warmongers and Englishmen.
If Europe is so good, why is there America?
I hope you were being somewhat sarcastic. Anyway, this has nothing to do with transit.
For exactly the same reason Australia was created.
And I forgot where, but there building a Light Rail also.
It is in Hebrew only, but has a picture of the original rolling stock, which looks like it ran with rubber tyres. it is one the handful pure underground funicular subways in the world, the other being Istanbul Tunel.
That was a big issue in Rome too. For decades the city had only one line, thanks to the constant uncovering of artifacts.
So? Buy Artie a cell phone, then he won't have to fax everything.
: )-
-James
A. What the tour guide said is one of those cutesy things that tour guides say! Half truth. Yes, digging in Jerusalem is tough because of the Rabbis' insistance on not disturbing a buried cemetery SHOULD ONE BE UNCOVERED. However,
B. There are no plans for a subway in Jerusalem.
C. The "project" underway is light rail. I'm not sure if the details because frankly I neither live there nor do I believe it will come to fruition as promised. In 1994, there was a hotly contested Mayoral election in Tel Aviv. As part of the campaign, one candidate pulled out and dusted off the 30-year old "plan" for a Tel Aviv subway. The other backed a "great cheap new" light rail system. Both were needed. Neither was built ("Mr Subway" won the election). The only transit related result of that election is that there is now an old, dusty 40-year old plan for the Tel Aviv subway. We desperately need SOMETHING here.
D. For a look at the Haifa Carmelit, go to http://www.urbanrail.net/as/hai/haifa.htm
E. Let's please keep American politics out of this one - it is not germane to the topic and only gets people's hackles up. When we have cleaned up our own act, we can then go on to clean up the acts of others. OK??
Shalom from Tel Aviv. Andy.
I posted not long ago that a subway was needed because it would offter more protection than the bus lines which are constantly under attack by the bombers. With limited number of stations, you can really beef up patrols. Not so with buses.
One can have buses with limited amounts of stops to the same effect.
As it is though, the buses are not "constantly under attack," while bus bombings are more common that any place else and they do happen, one is still much more likely to die in a standard automobile accident.
A more complex engineering issue is likely the various elevations in Jerusalem; the city is quite hilly, with buildings in some neighborhoods quite literally built into the side of the mountains - you enter a building at street level and go down, but when you look out of the window on the other side of the building, you're several stories up. Also, let's not underestimate the political will necessary to make a project like this happen - Israeli politics being what they are, it's a wonder that the light rail system they're now completing ever happened.
subfan
Rakevet is Hebrew for train
Kal is Hebrew for lightweight
Rakevet is feminine, so kal gets an "a" at the end.
- Itzhak
1) Dig holes in ground where stations should go. Collect archaeological artifacts (menorahs, grinding stones, Asherahs, old scrolls, etc.) and display prominently in a museum nearby (or next to the stations). Put a few stops in the Old City if you can.
2) Deep-bore tunnel construction - this means that stations will have a variety of depths from ground levels, but subway grades will be slight. It also dodges archaeological artifacts.
3) To irk the Muslims (and satisfy our own curiosity), tunnel up into the old Jewish Temple's basement, and spelunk for sacred Jewish treasures that might still be around. (Yes, under the Dome of the Rock.) Beef up subway security and make the inevitable bombs into sky-dazzling fireworks displays for Israeli Independence Day celebrations. (The tunnel should be on the edge of said basement so as to avoid the site of the Holy of Holies.)
4)Build "feeder lines" to outlying stations, consisting of Light Rail and Buses, and get some weird Hasidic rabbi to dedicate the whole thing to G-d.
5) Ensure that said subway doesn't run from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday. Also ensure that all subway food consumption is kosher.
6)In all subway stations where religious services occur, build a synagogue-room with windows, a podium, an ark behind the podium, and an Eternal Light dangling over the podium. Also ensure that all conversions are performed by an Off-the-Docks Rabbi. (err, Orthodox?)
Thus will be the essence of a Jewish Subway in Yerushalayim. :)
Richard Rabinowitz.
1) Dig holes in ground where stations should go. Collect archaeological artifacts (menorahs, grinding stones, Asherahs, old scrolls, etc.) and display prominently in a museum nearby (or next to the stations). Put a few stops in the Old City if you can.
2) Deep-bore tunnel construction - this means that stations will have a variety of depths from ground levels, but subway grades will be slight. It also dodges archaeological artifacts.
3) To irk the Muslims (and satisfy our own curiosity), tunnel up into the old Jewish Temple's basement, and spelunk for sacred Jewish treasures that might still be around. (Yes, under the Dome of the Rock.) Beef up subway security and make the inevitable bombs into sky-dazzling fireworks displays for Israeli Independence Day celebrations. (The tunnel should be on the edge of said basement so as to avoid the site of the Holy of Holies.)
4)Build "feeder lines" to outlying stations, consisting of Light Rail and Buses, and get some weird Hasidic rabbi to dedicate the whole thing to G-d.
5) Ensure that said subway doesn't run from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday. Also ensure that all subway food consumption is kosher.
6)In all subway stations where religious services occur, build a synagogue-room with windows, a podium, an ark behind the podium, and an Eternal Light dangling over the podium. Also ensure that all conversions are performed by an Off-the-Docks Rabbi. (err, Orthodox?)
Thus will be the essence of a Jewish Subway in Yerushalayim. :)
Richard Rabinowitz.
Why be overtly offensive to other religions? There's something wrong with a non-secular state.
Israel DID try to live in peace with its neighbors though. And then it went all to hell owing to tribal mentalities and hatreds. But once again, THIS ain't the place to go into it. As I used to say to my wiglets when I was management, "No GOOD can come of this."
Phil Hom
Stafford Virginia
It's on the back of "GREEN".
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Blue should be paired with Yellow (shared VA segment, and when Silver's built, BOTH are going to Mt Vernon Sq.), Orange with Silver when it's built (shared corridor), and Red with Green (Fort Totten area connection)
But if they build this "Purple Line", then they'll be ack t an odd number of colors... maybe a "No Passengers" placard? Pink? Grey? Brown? Gold?
Chuck Greene
Chuck
Chuck
Don't expect anything to happen with the Purple Line any time soon and I swear, I have nothing to do with the reason (Governor Erlich).
Mark
-W.E.S. (now "Green Line" Scott?)
My friend lives right on the trail. I'm fully versed in the ins and outs of construction. The trail can and will be built on top of the
Purple Line, at least along the Silver Spring segment. What we oppose is building a Toonerville Trolley on the surface of the ROW. That would destroy the tree cover. Also: if it is built as lite rail from Bethesda to Silver Spring, it will never be extended. I've been told this by the planner who proposed that it be built as lite rail. They have no interest in the Purple Line except as a shuttle. To increase the development caps in downtown Bethesda/Silver Spring by pretending more people can use transit once the trolley is built. It would not be extended.
The politicians proposing to build lite rail east of Silver Spring or
west of Bethesda are lying -- 50% of the FULL Purple Line, the one we
have been promised, will be underground no matter what.
Lite Rail is the problem, not the trail. I'm sorry to hear even the rail fans here in DC are not well versed in this. If you guys don't know what's really going on and voice your opinions locally then the Purple Line will not, I guarantee will not be built in any way, shape or form.
Again people who think Bethesda is where the trains must go, who think they must be on the surface, does not understand the need for the Purple Line. All the ridership is in Langley Park and Colesville and to some extent, the Montgomery Mall area offers an equally favorable trip generator (destination) for this ridership.
Connecting SS - Bethesda by trolley is a real estate scam -- like
"Who Framed Roger Rabbit", only with Eddie Valiant as the villain.
Also, I'd be interested to know why nobody replied to my first post.
I am new to posting here and was hoping to at least get a reply from John or the OP. Thanks!
I invite y'all to check it out, it is entitled "Red Line Express" posted several days ago. It is about a website I've been working on for years. I hoped to incite some discussion on it...
I haven't found many people interested in Metro expansion issues, at least not on mtu-t so I'm tempted to simply take down my website if nobody is interested. :-(
Regards, Brian
Thank You,
Mark
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=746357
The site is http://earthops.net/purple-line.
John
People aren't well versed on the issue because they keep changing the proposal to suit people's needs. I think I have the basic facts though. The one thing I do hear that you contradict is that the light rail would be extended to New Carrollton, but I don't know what route it would take.
Realize that when no one responds to a post, that there can be several reasons. People may miss the post due to the many other postings here, people may read it and not be interested, or they may have visited your website (like I did) and may simply not post a reply for a variety of reasons. I am glad that you are aboard and look forward to meeting you at some point. Many DC area SubTalkers and BusTalkers have met and we have formed a nice group IMO and you are more than welcome to join us.
This just happens to be my biggest beef with the proposal.
People aren't well versed on the issue because they keep changing the proposal to suit people's needs. I think I have the basic facts though. The one thing I do hear that you contradict is that the light rail would be extended to New Carrollton, but I don't know what route it would take.
Here is a good place to start to get you up to speed on the project; http://www.rkkengineers.com/sha/capital/alternatives.htm
Here are the alignment maps for both heavy and lite rail; http://www.rkkengineers.com/sha/capital/maplisting.htm
John
Mark
1. Historically, when Metro has been built, development occurs at or near stations. Metro has already contributed greatly to the development of Bethesda, less so to Silver Spring. Both areas are already served by Metro. If the Purple Line is built in any form, it will be easier for people to get to these areas, especially Bethesda. Some people will reach the new developments by transit, but others will drive. At the very least, traffic will not get any worse, but it certainly will not get better.
2. I and many other people really enjoy having the Georgetown Branch Trail literally in our back yards. Urban oaises such as the CCT, Georgetown Branch, and other hiker-biker trails in the region are very precious, and they will not be nearly as pleasant if there are trains running next to them. While the trail can co-exist with a single tracked line, the trees will have to be removed. If the line is ever double tracked, which it ultimately would be, the trail would be gone. There is a similar issue with trees on the W&OD trail in Virginia, except the culprit for the conflict is power lines, not a train.
I live near Bethesda and I use the trail on a very regular basis. I am no NIMBY or anti-rail pro urban sprawl person, but I don't believe in supporting projects that will either do insignificant or little good, if any at all. There are better places to build an east-west rail line.
Lisa Simpson guarded this big old tree that she didn't want cut down. Of course, she left and it got struck by lightening.
But, she is a fan of mass transit as she has taken the bus, which she got lost, and rode the NYC subway. I'm not sure what her stance was on the monorail though.
However, if they could build a line from Silver Spring to Grosvenor using the CSX ROW, maybe an elevated line like the Baltimore Metro over the Western Md ROW, and then along the Beltway to Rockville Pike, then it could also go to Rock Spring Park (an office area not very well known outside the immediate area, but filled with employees and like Marriott's HQ and IBM buildings and still lots of room for BIG Park-and-Ride lots)and to Montgomery Mall. I also think a line through Langley Park to College Park and New Carrollton is really useful. The local (RideOn)busses from Silver Spring to Langley Park run every 5-10 minutes nearly all the time.
If I had my 'druthers, I'd also want Metro to extend the Red Line to Aspen Hill. They could easily buy out the K-Mart or the Home Depot and build a huge parking garage.
Finally, I think the sign "WHITE" is there so the driver knows that he has a real sign in the window, and not just a squaure blank piece of cardboard. It could also say "Back of Green" (or whatever color is on the other side).
I would probably be more likely to support a line to Rock Spring or Montgomery Mall because those areas could sustain the growth that would result a bit more easily than Bethesda would.
The Purple line is dead. It has not gone beyond the study phase.
The Silver line received a $67 million matching grant from FTA Federal Transit Administration last week for preliminary engineering of phase one, Falls Church Junction with the K Route Orange Line to Wiehle Avenue.
Schedule
Proposals as stated in the Supplemental Draft Environmental Impact Statement call for service to Wiehle Avenue to begin in 2009 and to Route 772 in Loudoun County in 2015.
For more details on the Sliver line go to Dulles Corridor Rapid Transit Project www.dullestransit.com
John
We get to ENY and I listen to the C/R, its going express to Myrtle. So instead of walking upstairs to take the L into Manhattan. I ride the J express (middle track of course) to Myrtle. Then it went its usual way (MORE EXPRESS) to Marcy.
Good J ^^
Why cant the MTA do this all the time? Make the J Express from ENY to Myrtle. I hope one day I hope its a standard service.
If I posed this twice Im sorry, my browser messed up on the site here.
wayne
til next time
A better way to increase capacity is to run more trains, impossible until CBTC or some other signal improvements are made.
Boulderdash! Signals are not the limiting factor now. It is
rolling stock performance and general operating policies.
Those "general operating policies" were instituted to make the system safer. Every time there is an accident, policies are changed to reduce the chance of a re-occurrence. Every change is in the direction of making the system slower, yet safer.
It is debatable whether, as a minority continue to insist, the system could run more tph without compromising safety. But I think all will agree that extending the platforms is probably the most expensive way to increase capacity. The MTA says that CBTC is the way to do it. Stephen Bauman says that clocks with second hands are the way to do it. Both are cheaper than extending the platforms.
Unfortunately, until we reach that point 20-30 years in the future,
it will continue to suck more and more.
50 years ago they operated 32 tph peak on the Lex Express (LV's); they currenly operate 26 tph on the same line. 55 years ago they operated 42 tph on the 3rd Ave El (MUDC's). 96 years ago they operated 66 tph peak over the Brooklyn Bridge. 110 years ago they averaged 40 tph over 24 hours over the Brooklyn Bridge, with 80 tph peak.
None of these operations required CBTC or some other signal improvements to the present signal system.
The Moscow system currently operates in 40 tph peak without CBTC. Their signal system and the perfomance of their cars is very similar to the current IRT system. The Paris Metro operates 36 tph peak without CBTC.
TA management uses the canard that its poor peak service levels is due to the lack of expensive new technology. This technology costs several billion dollars and requires decades to implement. If the monies could be found, the long lead time will insure that current management is safely retired and enjoying their pensions before the truth would come out.
There are valid economic reasons why the TA should minimize peak service levels. However, they have been dishonest by not sharing that rationale with the public.
The Flushing line stations were lengthened to acommodate 11 car trains in the early 1950's. The original platform lengths were 454 feet for 9 car trains.
wayne
1,2,3
42nd to 96th
1
South Ferry Loop, 96th to 242nd
2,3
96th to 148th and 180th
5
South Ferry Loop?, 149th to 180th
4,5,6
Bowling Green to 42nd
4,5
Bowling Green to Atlantic Av.
2,3
Hoyt St. to Atlantic Av.
7
Hunterspoint Av. to Grand Central
S
All trackage
There are sections along these segments, mostly elevated, where the mods for larger cars would be simple. The deep bored segments would require work similar to that done on the City & South London in London to enlarge it to tube standards.
Although there is a story that is part of subway lore. The story goes that August Belmont was concerned that railroad companies (NY Central, B & O etc.)might try to get a hold of the IRT so he built it narrow so railroad cars wouldn't fit.
Sorry if its alittle O/T, but i think we need a good laugh once in a while in this place.
-Chris
LOL
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-James
And yes, thats too funny.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
Frank Hicks
Jeremy
Deliveries could be made using special permits making policing less costly and labour intensive as it's only needed at the entry points. Essentially it would be no different from, let's say London, where entry is tolled. Actually tolling entry to CBD or even Manhattan could achieve the same results, especially if cash is not accepted.
As a lesser measure all on street parking could be reduced and illegal parking strictly enforced.
Arti
OH if only we had a LEADER.
But I won't go there yet. I agree that private cars should immediately be banned from the CBD, not only for security purposes, but to alleviate congestion. (One person using mass transit takes up less room than one person in a car). I also think that once this was done, everyone would scream for a 2nd Ave Subway so loud that it can not be put aside another moment.
But that's my world.
Don't forget Buses...
I think that the security situation would be a good reason to finally do it now.
«everyone would scream for a 2nd Ave Subway so loud»
Without cars surface transit around CBD would be quite usable.
«But that's my world.»
That's actually so in the rest of the developed world.
Arti
That's actually so in the rest of the developed world.
Except Britain.
Arti
As far as I know, the central area of London has been/is being converted to 'cashless' operation - you buy your pass/ticket before you travel, then all passengers may board/alight via any of the three doors, to speed up boarding.
Mind if I join you there? : )
I have and have posted several plans of this ilk.
It would (eventually) require better public transit in the CBD.
One of my favorites would be the closing of Broadway. Pedestrians and LRV street cars only. My plan posits long three car units, maybe double deckers running under a wire (so change the law, NBD). No fare is collected on these cars since it is assumed that the fare was collected *somewhere* to get into the CBD in the first palce. Similar LRV cars over the Brooklyn Bridge.
Anybody want to see my plan for 34th Street?
Elias
At 106, Broadway merges with West End Ave, and from then on it's a major thoroughfare all the way up to the Bronx and beyond, so there's no problem with having traffic there.
No kidding.
Arti
The term is seldom used with respect to New York, quite possibly because both Midtown and Downtown can qualify. But it's a common term elsewhere in the country.
It is Federal-Speak... has to do with funding and a whole bunch of other things. In Manhattan it does indeed include most everything south of 59th Street, save perhaps Alphabet City. There is a separate CBD in Brooklyn, Long Island City, and Jamacia (IINM).
As an issue appart, and what in fact does make 59th Street the dividing line for the CBD is a zoning law that prohibits office buildings and corporate business north of 59th Street. Sure there *are* corporations an all sorts of businesses up there, but these are businesses dependant on local residential customers and business rather then on corporate business and world trade.
When we make posts about "the CBD" we tend to be looking at that more global picture of the city.
Elias
The most you could do, as another poster suggested, is to establish this as a goal, and phase it in over several decades. There is not enough mass transit capacity to completely eliminate auto traffic in the CBD. Mass transit capacity could be added--assuming all the right people agree that's good public policy--but it takes time.
Essentially it would be no different from, let's say London, where entry is tolled.
Actually, it would be totally different. Have you been to London lately? I have. London has not permanently banned all auto traffic from the CBD. There's still tons of it. You just have to pay extra to drive there.
This is actually a far more sensible suggestion than your first idea, because it could be implemented relatively easily, and without having to totally rethink the infrastructure.
As a lesser measure all on street parking could be reduced and illegal parking strictly enforced.
Throughout most of Manhattan's CBD, on-street parking is already illegal during peak hours.
I agree.
«Throughout most of Manhattan's CBD, on-street parking is already illegal during peak hours.»
But absolutely not enforced.
Arti
NOPE.
Ask Timmy, Terroists use trucks, a delivery truck is just perfect, all sorts of buildings must receive all sorts of deliveries all day long. Interfere with *that* traffic and that is just as good a victory to the terrorists as actually bringing the building down.
The purpose of an auto-ban in the CBD is a quality of life issue. The open space belongs to the people not to the machines. There is little enough green in Manhattan as it is.
Can it happen all at once, as if by fiat?
NOPE.
But things can happen. Step one might be to close Broadway to all traffic south of 60th Street, run street cars and pedestrians only.
Expand that to the Brooklyn Bridge and another street or two down town.
Add my 34th Street Mall idea.
Add some free streetcars to 5th 6th 7th and 8th Avenues (at the expense of two lanes of traffic.)
Put some free street cars on 57th, 42nd, 23rd and 14th streets.
Little by little transit takes over the streets and avenues.
Require a franchise to stop at the curb... "This spot belongs to USPS at 0800, to UPS at 0820, to FedEx at 0840, to Pepsi at 0900 etc. etc."
Then you close the Lincoln Tunnel to all except busses during rush hours. And expand the definition of 'rush hour'
When all of this is in place, take the last step, and close the CBD to cars.
It *can* be done, one slice at a time.
Elias and the Broadway Lion
If CBD has limited access, then by default all the trucks will get checked, no need for misc. color codes and massive police force to do that.
Arti
NOPE...
Do you know how many trucks come into and operate in Manhattan?
Neither do I, but sufice it to say that it is too big a number to check.
So Regular truckers in the city require a Franchise...
The holders of these franchises are known to the Police Department, and the Francheeseesessseses check their own trucks. So only non-franchised trucks need to be inspected.
So I have closed the Brooklyn Bridge to all traffice. (LRVs and Pedestrians only)
Franchised Trucks may use the other three bridges, as well as the (pay a toll) tunnels.
Non-Franchised Trucks must use the tunnels (That is where the plazas are), and must be inspected before entering the city. All non-Manhattan traffic must use other bridges and not pass through Manhattan at all.
Elias
Yes, If they all are required to have EZPass, then they are ecaxtly known.
«So Regular truckers in the city require a Franchise... »
Pretty much the same as my first proposal, only you have widened the area.
Arti
Exactly....which is why this proposal can't fly. Basically, you need to look at every reason why people bring cars into the CBD, and you need to offer plausible alternatives. It has taken the better part of a century for our infrastructure to evolve to what it is now, including many decades when investment in car travel was favored over rail and other mass-transit infrastructure. We have Robert Moses, among other people, to thank for that. If it was a mistake, it won't be undone overnight.
I have addressed this, and obviously no plan is perfect or air-tight. My proposals realted to congestion and quality of live issues, and not the absolute prevention of terrorist devices and events.
People who live in the CBD and who own or lease an off-street parking place may obtain special license plates and EZpasses that permit access.
There are many needs for a privately operated vehicle to be in the CBD, a homeowner might rent a truck to move from one house to another. All these things ned to be made as easy as possible for those who as live in the CBD.
My wrath is against vehicles in general, and unnecessary commuter vehicles in particular. Some will be needed. My goal is a more open, person friendly environment with open spaces and less traffic. Closing Avenues to all but a trickle of vehicles and streets to all but local delivery trucks will go a long way to acomplish this.
Avenues might be left with two traffic lanes, and an LRV lane, and the rest made into a pedestrian mall. People will quickly learn that their car is useless in the city and will leave it at home.
People living in big buildins will already have a parking garage available to them, people in Alphabet City already have parking lots, and yes in wholy residential areas, thre may even be on-street parking.
Still, the day I moved into New York City was the day I sold my car. I did not own a car again until I moved out of the city. Me thinks that cars are not necessary in Manhattan, but I would make a provision for those who live there and want to keep one.
Elias
No, residents do need their cars. It is the commuters who need not drive here. Just moving to commercial plates in not an option, andybody can put a commercial plate on their car.
For commercial Vehicles, a proper franchise seems appropriate, for automobiles (of residents), plates and passes are the answer. For the rest, restrictions that squeeze out other traffic will work.
Elias
Everyone is hot to use "NATIONAL SECURITY" as a battering ram
to force through their bad ideas, which would otherwise be shot
down immediately.
I am not opposed to closing some streets and better regulating
the flow of traffic through midtown, but this is too extreme
Not really, CBD is not a top secret mitliary installation. I'd use EZ Pass style system without gates. Any trespassing would be easy to intercept by limeted police force and would pinpoint suspicious vehicles, making random checks unnecessary.
For anyone having privacy concerns, how would a random check violate it less.
«Federal implications of trying to prevent
interstate highway system traffic from crossing Manhattan »
I would leave federal implications to the DHS.
Secondly it's ridiculous that interstate through traffic crowds Manhattan streets to begin with.
Actually from a security point of view, that would be one of the first things to do.
_as a battering ram
to force through their bad ideas, which would otherwise be shot
down immediately. _
Interestingly limiting auto traffic in cental cities is not viewd as a bad idea in most of the developed world.
_I am not opposed to closing some streets and better regulating
the flow of traffic through midtown, but this is too extreme_
Probably. I just put it out here as a thought.
IMHO even enforcing ageold regulations, routinely ignored by NY motorists, would improve the traffic flow and security situation.
Arti
I-495 does not cross Manhattan.
There is an I-459 in New Jersey, and a different I-495 on Long Island.
The local streets within Manhattan are not built to interstate specifications, are not built with interstate highway funding, and do not carry an I-495 designator. Not even a Business I-495 designator!
Yes I woould indeed set up barricades between 60th street and 59th Street. It is not all that many check points, since half of them are already one way north. Since Trucks would be restricted to 1st and 2nd Avenues and to 10th and 11th Avenues and access from the park to 6th and 7th Avenues would be closed...
It is one of the easiest cities in the world to restrict MV access physically, thoug probably not politically.
Elias
But now there's a political reason.
Arti
If 8th Ave were to be shut down the service plan would be
A train 207th Street-Far Rockaway via 6th Ave switch from express to local at 34th street
B no service
C no Serivce
D some service as now
E no service
F same service as now
V 179th Street - Euclid Avenue via 6th Ave
If 6th Ave were to shut down this would be the service plan
A same service as now
B no service
C 205th Street - Euclid Avenue via 6th Ave
D Stillwell Avenue - 179th Street via Broadway and 63rd street
E Jamaica Center - Stillwell Avenue
N same as current service
R same as current service
Q Stillwell Avenue - Astoria
Would these service plans be both physically and politically possible?
A train 207th Street-Far Rockaway via 6th Ave switch from express to local at 34th street
B no service
C no Serivce
D some service as now
E no service
What about Jamaica Center?
F same service as now
V 179th Street - Euclid Avenue via 6th Ave
V to 179th on weekends and overnight?
If 6th Ave were to shut down this would be the service plan
A same service as now
B no service
C 205th Street - Euclid Avenue via 6th Ave
Wouldn't 6th Ave be closed?
D Stillwell Avenue - 179th Street via Broadway and 63rd street
What about Concourse?
E Jamaica Center - Stillwell Avenue
What about Hillside Ave?
N same as current service
R same as current service
Q Stillwell Avenue - Astoria
Would these service plans be both physically and politically possible?
The answer is no, they would not consider it. They would sooner raise the base fare--which in another year or two they'll have to do anyway.
If you are a US Citizen, and if you were ever registered to vote anywhere in the USA, you have the right and the privilege to vote in this year's presidential election.
The site http://www.OverseasVote2004.com has a simple online form which takes a couple of minutes to complete. It creates, in printed form or PDF format which you can print later, the form you need to send to the Board of Elections in the last place you voted in the States. They provide the address to which you should mail the form.
Sign and date the printed form, send to your Board of Elections and they will mail your absentee ballot to you in late September or early October.
There is a different procedure for voters away from their residence on Election Day, but still within the US. Check the Board of Elections site for your state.
Note for people who last voted in New York City: For some reason, the site doesn't know where the NY City Board of Elections offices are. Their addresses can be found at http://www.vote.nyc.ny.us/offices.jsp
Please - VOTE ON ELECTION DAY.
Shalom from Tel Aviv. Andy.
Well, yes, sort of.
All Transit in this conutry is Politics, and so you have to vote for a party or candidate who will best further the interests of transit.
Vote Casey Jones for President!
I really hope those politicans who diverted the Pennsylvania Station rebuilding funds, earmarked by former Sen. Monyiham, will learn their lesson come November.
His nickname was derived from his birthplace: Kayce, Kentucky.
Shrub couldn't shine Casey's boots.
Just read that CT-DOT is saving some bucks in their purchase of replacements for the Budd Cosmopolitans by buying 3 car sets of two M-7s & one M-8. They say the M-8 can pull the two M-7s under the wire and the two M-7s can pull the lone M-8 in 3rd rail territory.
Interesting concept.
Makes sense. That's a very rational design, and I'm glad it's being considered.
i think it's just a "showcase" train, as maglevs are pretty expensive proprietary systems.
speeding down the track
just scroll ahead to the last 2 mins to see the train in action, the first 3 minuts is just PR fluff.
better quality video, long download
here is a previous nytimes article on it
Now of course to make it better for the subways to handle the capacity, S.A.S. should be in place and that the T.S. Shuttle be extended to at least 5 cars.
Now where in the world did you get *this* silly notion!
GCT has lots of tracks, it does NOT have lots of capacity.
It is a Terminal, and all of those tracks are used for storing trains, trains that, at NYP, are stored at the West End Yard and at Sunnyside yards in between uses.
Trains arriving at GCT are stuck where they land.
Trains arriving at NYP stop, discharge and are OUT OF THERE!
Trains Leaving GCT leave from the tracks that they were resting on.
Trains Leaving NYP zoom in from the yard, pick-up pax and leave all within about five minutes.
If NJT needs more capacity than what it can get at NYP, a new station will have to be built. I commend to your attention my wonderful NJT-LIRR-WTC plan as an example of what *could* be done if people could get their heads out and just do it.!
In conjunction with thoughts on HIGH SPEED RAIL SERVICE, I was considering a new "Upper Mid-town Station" that would be build under 57th Street. Two new tunnels under each river, yards both in Queens and in New Jersey, Connections to both Jamaica and LaGuardia in Queens, and to Seacacus and Newark Airport on the Jersey side.
LIRR trains would make a station stop in Manhattan and then go to yards at Seacacus or Newark, while NJT would stop in Manhattan and then go to yards at LaGuardia or Jamaica.
Perhaps build the station on three levels: the mezinine, the LIRR level and the NJT Level. Two Platforms and Four Tracks is all there is room for, but during rush hour that would realistically leave 4 minute headways and 16 minute dwell times for each train.
Elias
Having reviewed your link, I must confess to thinking of it as being a bit too much in-the-box. You leave NJT's Hoboken Division and LIRR's Atlantic Avenue Branch just as stranded as before, when they need to get into Manhattan themselves. Note that trains from NJT's Newark Division could be diverted into such a "bathtub" terminal via the now fully-electrified "Waterfront Connection" in Kearny NJ, were it the case that the Hoboken Divison got first priority to occupy the Bathtub. LIRR trains could move northward into NJT's extant yard in Hoboken (although that would necessitate third-rail for their purposes). I'm not terribly fond of the through tracks with no adjacent platform either; unless you are going to run freight on those tracks, I say put platforms next to them. (And of course, if we put the Hoboken Division in there, we need far more tracks and platforms . . .)
(Ah, if only the pols were as wise as we, yes?)
Actually, I do not...
I did not draw anything in New Jersey because I do not know it well enough, but there *are* tracks all over the place over there, and I had intended that there be some connections.
As for the Atlantic Avenue Branch... If access to midtown via the Lower Montauk is completed, wouldn't that become redundant and unneeded? My thought there was to give it back to the City of New York (NYC owns that line anyway, not the LIRR) and let them run subway trains on it. Probably a connection to the IRT, run the (3) train on it or something.
And that is more out of the ox than anybody else around here.
: ) Elias
Here's an idea for running MN, NJT, and LIRR trains to downtown:
Track connection from GCT to NYP as per plans in my previous posts. So now, MN can reach NYP. So now, LIRR and MN extend from NYP, then turn south under west Side Highway. New Haven line would have a 2 track tunnel with catenary. NJT would extend from Hoboken, under the Hudson, turn south under West Side Highway and merge with the New Haven line tracks. That way, NJT and MN New Haven, which both use cat, use the same tracks. Then, MN Hudson and Harlem would share one track, and LIRR would have another track. So now, there are 4 tracks to downtown manhattan under West Side Highway. They turn east under Fulton, and that's where the station is.
The layout of the terminal would be as follows:
NJT/MN New Haven fans out to 5 tracks
MN Hudson and Harlem fans out to 3 tracks
LIRR fans out to 3 tracks
So in total. That's 11 tracks. Then, the 3 LIRR tracks extend under the East, and over to the LIRR FBA terminal.
Of course the whole thing would either have LIRR-style 3rd rail and 12.5kvAC, the MN service would either be via something like a ALP48 ( with retractible shoes, for both MN lines, assuming electrification at 25kv north of Croton-Harmon), ALP46s, or a specialized pool of Silverliner 5s or de-shoed MN NH Line MUs (for the NH Line only, or both if the Hudson line is 100% re-electrified).
Now if only &*%* MTA woulda gotten around to standardizing the NYC and Pennsy standards back in the day, this would have been SOOO much easier.
Actually, under something like Elias's plan, the MN Hudson, Harlem, west of hudson, and some of NJT can't even reach downtown. With my plan, everything is able to reach downtown. And also, I did say run it under West Side Highway for a reason.
"The LIRR and MN New Haven trains (via the Hell Gate and HAROLD) come in through a new tunnel under the East River, NJT through a new tunnel under the Hudson (bringing Port Jervis, RVL and etc in), and MN's Hudson line comes down from the Empire Connection via your tunnel under the West Side Highway."
And....you think this is gonna be cheaper? So lets see, that's 2 tunnels through manhattan(one under east side, one under west side, vs one tunnel in my plan from GCT to NYP, then down West Side Highway. Oh, and BTW, the Port Jervis line and PVL would NOT be able to reach downtown through Elias's plan. Also, about the Hudson line, your plan to just have one continuous line under the west side would prevent those trains from running to both GCT AND NYP. Under my plan, those Hudson trains can stop at GCT, NYP, and downtown.
You mis-read me. I would run the LIRR to WTC via the Lower Montauk, which moves all Jamaica-WTC traffic to the Montauk, and leaves the Atlantic Avenue Line virtually empty of riders. Yeah some want to go to Brooklyn and not to Manhattan, But if I give the Atlantic Line to the (3) train, it will still make a quick run to Jamaica: I'm not adding any stops since the (J) train takes care of that. Most Long Islanders going to Brooklyn would need to change at Jamaica anyway, and it makes no difference to them if the car is 85' long with two doors or 50' long with three doors, it will still go where it always has, and with greater frequency. That is a high speed line, and there is no reason not to populate it with cars capable of high speed.
Also the Lower Montauk is an ROW, not necessirily an existing arrangement of track. To use it for high speed rail, it would need to be elevated. If it were elevated with four tracks, then the subway might use two and the LIRR might use two and never the twain shall meet.
Elias
Leaving the atlantic empty of riders? What a load of crap! Most of those riders probably work in Brooklyn, at places like Metrotech. Handing the line over to NYC Subway would be a horrible idea. And also, most people going to Brooklyn do NOT have to change at Jamaica.
"That is a high speed line, and there is no reason not to populate it with cars capable of high speed."
And....LIRR cars aren't capable of high speeds?
As for making the lower montuak a subway....I don't see the point in spending the money. Just re-open the LIRR stops and increase service.
I just don't think so. LIRR touts the Atlantic Avenue Line as their "Shortcut to Downtown". Most riders change to the IRT and continue to Manhattan. Some to the BMT which is right there too. As I said, yes there are some for whom Flatbush is a destination rather than a transfer, but not for most.
I know LIRR cars are high speed. But if the (3) train is placed there instead, then that too can use high speed cars.
And most people going to Brooklyn *do* have to change at Jamaica. Except for a few rush hour LOCALS, no Babylon trains go there.
Elias
I know I've said this many times before, but the LIRR-subway transfer at Flatbush is so quick and easy that it would be utterly pointless to spend scarce funds to bring the LIRR into Downtown. If the ulterior motive is to give Downtown a post-9/11 economic boost, that probably could be accomplished far more cheaply and effectively through means such as targeted tax breaks - not to mention the fact that Downtown is economically healthier than most American CBD's and really doesn't need any help.
And to the extent the idea is to make life easier for LIRR commuters who don't want to ride the subway with, you know, those people, suffice to say that my response is too vulgar to be repeated here.
Two-seat rides are still less attractive than one-seat rides. If the Atlantic Avenue line did indeed terminate in Downtown Manhattan, it would be four tracks instead of two. All you have to do is look across the Hudson and see what happened when the former Lackawanna lines got a one-seat ride into Midtown Manhattan. The PATH transfer at Hoboken prior to that was also "quick and easy", but the one-seat ride is far more attractive—as it would also prove with a direct Atlantic Avenue service into Manhattan.
And as for "scarce" funds, the only factor making them scarce is the fact that the politicians want them to seem scarce.
Really? I don't know how much it would cost to extend four tracks from Atlantic Avenue to Lower Manhattan, but it could cost in the neighborhood of $10 billion. I'd love to know where that non-scarce money is.
Didn't I just tell you to ask the politicians?
Not when compared to the LIRR-subway transfer at Flatbush Avenue.
Please don't cop out on us now. It was/is a rapid two-seat ride transfer. And relating to Atlantic Avenue, don't tell me that the LIRR trains wouldn't be busier if they went right into Manhattan, because they certainly would be.
I do not understand your statement.
My whole thesis rests on a direct Jamaica to WTC express via the Lower Montauk Lion.
Thus WTC passengers would not be going through Flatbush at all.
After such a creation (fat chance, eh?) the remaining LIRR traffic to flatbush fails to justify its existance and the line is returned to the city.
It is asumed that passengers going to Flatbush will change trains at Jamacia regardless of who (LIRR or IRT) runs their trains on the Atlantic Lion. Well yes, there are a number of Flatbush passengers that *might Just* have a direct train, but I was never one of those, and I aways had to change at Jamaica.
Elias
But why? It'd be so much more expensive than just bringing the alantic to downtown. Also, if you're gonna go downtown from a point in Manhattan, why not do it from NYP and go under the west side. That way you have one train serving two of the three major stations in Manhattan.
"After such a creation (fat chance, eh?) the remaining LIRR traffic to flatbush fails to justify its existance and the line is returned to the city. "
If it fails to justify its existance(which wouldn't happen anyway b/c not everyone on that line is going to downtown manhattan), then the line would NOT be handed over to the city. It would be abandonned.
"It is asumed that passengers going to Flatbush will change trains at Jamacia regardless of who (LIRR or IRT) runs their trains on the Atlantic Lion. Well yes, there are a number of Flatbush passengers that *might Just* have a direct train, but I was never one of those, and I aways had to change at Jamaica. "
Well that's no bodies fault but your own. You know how to read a schedule(right?), why didn't you actually try to schedule things so you'd get a flatbush train?
That's the mistake a lot of people make, assuming that extra capacity will never be "needed". At present, that line is quite high-speed (especially when contrasted with subway express); downgrading it to subway carries the risk of alienating riders as well, especially LIRR riders that are used to a one-seat ride out of Brooklyn. Not to mention, you'll never know when you need a detour route; turn the Atlantic Avenue line into subway, and you've killed that forever.
I did not draw anything in New Jersey because I do not know it well enough
You got a whole Internet in front of you ;-)
NJT tracks 1-5 at NYP extend to GCT lower level tracks. 2 things already complete(NJT can go to GCT and MN can go to NYP). They could also save space for NJT to reach GCT by running only Harlem trains through that tunnel to NYP, and the new haven and hudson trains that would go to NYP would just go via the Amtrak routings. That way, NJT has the majority of the space comming into GCT through the new tunnel.
Then, extend LIRR from its new lower level in the future to a new NYP lower level. This lower level would also be high enough for double stacked freight cars, as well as the new hudson river tunnel it connects to, AND the new east river tunnel it connects to that goes to the lower montauk instead of the main line. DMs could use this tunnel too.
So basically, there'd be 2 main terminals. Also, LIRR and MN could have another stop somewhere between 59th and 63rd st(lots of transit connections there too). So there, 3 Manhattan stops for the areas 3 commuter RRs. Now, of course, not all NJT trains would go to GCT, not all MN trains would go to GCT AND NYP(some will just end at GCT, some will go to both, some hudson and new haven trains will just go to NYP), and not all LIRR trains would go to GCT(those that do however, would all continue on to NYP lower level).
Hell, with all this, Amtrak may even be able to return to GCT(except for Acela of course), and maybe even still serve NYP. Now wouldn't that be kick ass?
Pardon me, but, NO SHIT!
"there won't be THAT much more room."
Yes there will be. Even if 1/3rd the amount of LIRR trains start running to GCT instead of NYP, that'll make plenty of room for MN to run trains to NYP. I'm not saying divert all the MN trains to NYP, just a few.
I do not expect LIRR to cut much traffic to NYP at all.
Maybe some servic will divert to GCT, and maybe some will move from Brook to GCT, but I expect that most service to GCT will be in the form of ADDITIONAL TRAINS.
Elias
Too bad there no money...
New Haven line trains to NYP, all they need to use is cat, like Acela. Hudson trains just need to use Amtrak type Genesis. Harlem line trains, no problem. They'd extend through a new tunnel from the lower level to tracks 1-5 of NYP. Those tracks just have cat. So extend MN 3rd rail there. Also, extend cat through that tunnel to the lower level of GCT for NJT.
As for LIRR, they're gonna have the entire own new lower level, which I propose be extended to a new NYP lower level, so no problems there with 3rd rail.
How would Hudson Line trains draw power outside of Penn Station such as on the actual Hudson line?
Also extending one type of third rail probably isn't enough. They say the two third rail types can't coexist so simple extension won't be enough.
I believe he means the same way that Amtrak P32AC-DM-hauled Empire Corridor trains power themselves—from the diesel prime mover. (Those Genesis IIs run on the electrified portion of the Hudson Line with contact shoes retracted.) Sounds like the idea is to have trains from Poughkeepsie and generally north of Croton-Harmon (i.e. non-EMU) run into Penn.
Shouldn't happen anyway. Amtrak and NJT are badly congested on the NJ side. Keep Metro-North outta NYP.
That's basically my concern unless runtimes are of no concern.
"Shouldn't happen anyway. Amtrak and NJT are badly congested on the NJ side. Keep Metro-North outta NYP."
Any of these exapnsion plans must include new tunnels and trackage from NJ and expansion of Penn and GCT. Personally the best route is probably through universal use of catenary power on NY commuter lines.
NOPE...
AFIK regular RR catenary will not fit in the GCT tunnels or terminals.
Elias
You qualified that statement with "regular". Can you elaborate?
The NYC used to use a special catenary above the switches so that their locomotives could maintain contact passing through them. Maybe you remember some of those Lionel engines with the absurdly small pantograph on the top. That is exactly what it was. An overhead third rail to get the train across the gaps. Remember that those locomotives were much shorter than passenger cars, and shorter than most other locomotives.
Except for these switches, the locomotives obtained power from the third rail.
So had I not put that qualification in, some nit-picker would surely have pounced on it.
Elias
It'll fit just fine in the terminal; the clearance is greater than in NYP. It's the Park Avenue tunnels that are the problem.
Perhaps not, PATH still has spare capacity and if Hoboken trains would only serve 33rd street and Newark trains WTC there would be even more.
Arti
Arti
That is both absurd and impossible.
The tunnels cannot accomodate RR cars at all, and the terminal is only three tracks. Railroad trains need bigger terminal and much more loading time than a PATH train.
With a PATH train you get on the train and go.
With a RR train you need to wait in the station for all of your passengers to arrive and board the correct train. The kind of service a train needs if far different from a subway. Just Ain't No Way!
Elias
Arti
I hate to point out the obvious, but are you really that stupid!?(or do you not know what a genesis. If that's the case, sorry).
"Also extending one type of third rail probably isn't enough. They say the two third rail types can't coexist so simple extension won't be enough."
I don't get it. What's the problem. With my plan, the two different types of 3rd rail never share the same track.
"Those Genesis IIs run on the electrified portion of the Hudson Line with contact shoes retracted."
I agree with him that it
"Sounds like the idea is to have trains from Poughkeepsie and generally north of Croton-Harmon (i.e. non-EMU) run into Penn."
I also agree him considering the current infrastructure that it
"Shouldn't happen anyway. Amtrak and NJT are badly congested on the NJ side. Keep Metro-North outta NYP."
So far as being stupid I haven't compared the achievement of bringing MN to Penn with development of the airplane so...
The mechinical work arounds are simple. If the Gensis Locomotives can have a retractable shoe, then MU cars can have a shoe that repositions it self as needed.
The bigger point is there is NO NEED TO CONNECT THOSE TWO STATIONS!
Commuters from railroads MUST NOT EXPECT a one seat ride to their building. (Well ok, I *did* have a one seat ride, but I worked across the street from NYP!) Commuter trains bring people into the city, and city transit moves them about.
For an LIRR commuter or a MNRR commuter a subway trip is still required to get to the financial district no matter which station the come in at, and for those who work in mid-town, you are already within walking distance of your workplace regardless of which station you come in to.
There are much better projects to spend the $$ on than this!
Elias
Cateranery to and in GCT, adjustable 3rd rail shoes, etc.
A nit is the egg of a llouse or any other parasitic insect.
If they end up in your kid's hair you will have to pick them out.
(That *is* where nit-pickers come from, you know...)
Anyway : ) not to pick nits with you, I think that you were looking for a more tightly knit regional rail network.
But to what end?
Isn't it enough to get into the city. I mean, no matter where the train terminal is, SOMEBODY, most somebodys in fact, will have to take the subway or a bus to their final destination anyway.
The STANDARD commute is this:
1. Car or bus to the RR station.
2. Train to the City
3. Bus or subway to destination.
If all commuters could have it that easy then there would be no complaints.
Elias
Therein lies the psychological rub; it does matter. It troubles many passengers when the final stop is not in Manhattan, e.g. prior to NJ Transit's Midtown Direct. Now mind you, if the NYCTA instead of PATH went directly to Hoboken, it would be a bigger help for that station's viability . . . but consider how NJT are trying to basically market Secaucus Junction Station as a sort of "Jamaica West".
Aye, there I'll agree with you. My statement of course was to where in Manhattan (NYP, GCT, or WTC) the terminal might be. Even if you could go direct to all three, it would still be "not just right" for most people, and thus the cost of going to all three is not justified.
Elias
Also you all need to remember:
MNR electric equipment cannot run on LIRR trackage, however:
M2s, M4s, and M6s could run over hellgate and into PENN on catenary, as previously suggested, BUT what everyone is forgetting is that the third rail shoes WILL STILL BE THERE, and even though they wont be in use for power, they will still hit the LIRR 3rd rail. The only work around is retrofitting retractable shoes. (Costs money that the MTA probably doesn't have).
Gennies from the Hudson or NH lines would have the same problem, in addition to NOT being able to be electrically powered in NYP. The workaround is not retractable shoes, like Amtraks, but ADJUSTABLE ones, as previously mentioned. Oh, and not to mention that MNR and LIRR third rails vary by about 150 volts (I don't know if this is really an issue or not). (Once again, $$$)
About digging a tunnel from GCT LL to NYP for Harlem line trains, you need to realize that they would all need to be retrofitted with ADJUSTABLE shoes, as I have mentioned with the Gennies. And the cost of running a dual power system (3rd rail & catenary) would be enormous (to allow NJT access to GCT).
The bottom line is (to the best of my knowledge), no MNR, LIRR or NJT locomotives or rolling stock currently has the necessary equipment to run into the opposite station (NYP or GCT). The other big problem is that NYP is busting at the seams AS IT IS. Unless you want to find a way to add platform tracks there, I doubt that I could handle any more traffic.
Do you want to pay for all of that?
I said to extend from GCT LL to NYP 1-5, which, to the best of my knowledge, have no 3rd rail, jus cat. Extend MN 3rd rail to tracks 1-5, and cat to GCT LL.
And as others have already mentioned, no European nor Asian city has a "central terminal" with rail lines radiating out in all directions. The TGV, ICE and AVE projects work so well because the trains use existing terminals. It would be like using Hoboken Terminal as your departure point for a new HSR line bound for Washington or Boston, for example.
Let Amtrak keep it's dying East River tubes, and it's mismanaged system
Mismanaged? Underfunded is the correct word. (Would you have described the MTA as "mismanaged" when Gunn was at its helm??)
And where would the money come from to get LIRR and NJT into GCT? The old Access to the Region's Core proposal was for a new tunnel connecting NYP and GCT's lower level, for NJT trains. The ESA is already going to send LIRR trains into GCT, at their own tracks/platforms. Try to do that on Amtrak's budget. (Remember, Amtrak operates about 11 times the length of track miles that the MTA does.)
Aside from the lack of capacity that would be available in that plan, technically, it'd work out great. NJT and MN New Haven can use the same catenary between GCT lower level to NYP tracks 1-5, or is it 1-4? Now we have to get the Harlem and Hudson lines there. Well, they both use the same type of 3rd rail. So bingo, just extend that. Hell, the New Haven line could also use it.
Of course, a better sollution would be to run the New Haven and Hudson lines via the Amtrak ROW, and then run the Harlem line from the lower level of GCT to tracks 1-4 or 5 of NYP(which would include extension of catenary from NYP to GCT). NJT would use the same routing, just in the other direction.
What EVERYONE needs to realize, is that without expensive upgrades to the rolling stock, MNR and LIRR 3rd rails are MECHANICALLY incompatable! GET OVER IT.
Tell me something I don't know.
"Plus, to the best of my knowledge, the NJT traks (I think 1 - 6 or something) which I believe (I could be wrong) to not have 3rd rail are on the SOUTH side of NYP. Those are the only tracks MNR could go to (MNR 3rd rail would have to be installed there). BUT, how do you get them there without crossing LIRR tracks? They could tunnel under before joining the main line, but it would still be a major obstacle. "
Yes. Tunnel under the 4 LIRR tunnels. It's just like the former ARC plan. And I think it's only tracks 1-4 that can be extended, b/c they just terminate at NYP. 5 and 6 I believe continue east into one of the tunnels.
You sound kinda hopeful there. You like slow railroads, I take it?
As a name for the stop? I'd love to bring the term "junction" back into real use. How about LIRR Eas Side Junction?
As for bringing back old junction stations, they could re-open Bethpage Junction.
After moving from Brooklyn we settled in Farmingdale, about a mile from the former Bethpage junction. There is not much potential for a station there any more because there is no place to put a parking lot! It's at the present Merrits Rd and Fulton St - a bit east of B. tower.
On the other hand, we lived just one block from the former So. Farmingdale station on the central branch. We moved there in 1963 and the station still existed. Here, the potential for a big parking lot still exists to this day. It would be between the tracks and Motor Ave, just west of Main St. It would work nicely. On the other hand, the Farmngdale Main Line station is just a brisk 15 min walk from there, so I don't know if a totaly new station would be warrented.....
As a young teen rail buff I used to walk the central Branch from So. F'dale west through B. to Bethpage station. There's a block signal just west of Main St. and then there begins B's home signals with a nice bridge too.
Nostalgia....Just last Dec.. we moved my Dad from there to a nursing home near us here in Delaware Co PA. So, I guess I'll never have the opportunity to visit him on LI again: SEPTA to 30'th St Sta. Phily, then Amtrak to NYP, then head end on a Ronkonkoma M1to F'dale. At what was to be my final trip up there, I arrived at NYP and noticed an M7 to Ronkonkoma. I ran with all my might, but the doors closed literaly in my face. I had never ridden an M7 and I guess I now never will!
Many of the European and Asian cities that have extensive commuter rail systems have multiple termini in the central area. Indeed, NYC's two (GCT and Penn) is on the low end - although probably one should add LIRR at Atlantic Ave and Hunters Point, and even NJT at Hoboken, to give a more comparable total. Paris has several (Gare de L'Est, Gare du Nord, Gare de Lyon, Gare D'Austerlitz, Gare de Montparnasse), even though the creation of the RER has joined up some commuter lines across the city and closed one or two termini. Tokyo has several very large commuter terminals. London has about a dozen, of varying sizes; if it did have a Union Station, London's would have to be of monstrous size! Madrid has three or four, I seem to remember. Berlin still has several, despite the reunification of Germany.
They're going out of their way to confuse people too. They've already renamed Berlin Hbf to Berlin Ostbf, and now it looks like Berlin Lehrter Bf is going to become Berlin Hbf. Talk about confusing. It would be like deciding to rename Cardiff Central to Cardiff West, then deciding a decade later to rename Cardiff Queen St to Cardiff Central.
The number was much higher at one time, of course. CNJ Terminal (in what is now Liberty State Park), the original "Penn Station" at Exchange Place, Erie Terminal (used to be across the street from what is now Newport Mall), and Weehawken Terminal of the New York, West Shore and Buffalo RR (now "Port Imperial", and used to host the NYO&W). Do not recall if NYSW had a passenger terminal at Edgewater; however, the Erie RR had their original terminal at Piermont NY, many miles from the city. (May as well throw in the NYW&B's terminal in the Bronx.)
A spokeswoman for the transit agency says the subway train's brakes caught fire about 6:50 a.m. near the Prince George's Plaza Station. No one on board the train was injured. The extent of the damage isn't clear.
Metro says passengers can expect delays of about 20 minutes between Greenbelt and West Hyattsville.
There also are lingering delays on the eastern end of the Red Line - stemming from last week's heavy rains that flooded a control room in Silver Spring. A signaling system is being repaired.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
TIA.
Sometimes I do see R-32/38's in the 116th street yard.
BTW: Those trains terminate at 59th street. They don't go all the way. At least that's what the sign said.
Taken spring(?) 2003:
Unless the sign is horribly out of date. I wouldn't rule that out, it is the MTA we are talking about.
I remember when they did terminate trains at 59th. It lasted a month due to the backups it caused on inbound express service.
Also, I just checked the current A schedule. All 5 scheduled trains have times listed as to when they arrive at 125th, 145th, etc. The first one (6:38) is scheduled to arrive at 207th at 8:11.
H, you out there?
CG
According to the story, there have been other incidents involving the police and passengers in Moscow.
They still use tokens in Russia!
That reminds me of the old story about how NASA spent millions coming up with a high-tech pen with a specially designed ink delivery system so it was capable of writing reliably in zero gravity. The Russians, faced with the same predicament, used pencils.
Urban legend. NASA never considered using pencils because they're dangerous in a zero-gravity environment - if a piece of lead breaks off, it could float into someone's eye.
Good read.
til next time
Sorry if this has alerady been asked, but I can't seem to find an answer.
Perhaps this would be better asked in a new thread, but why is that so? What about a third track, will there be one?
Sorry if this has already been asked, but I can't seem to find an answer.
They're building all island platforms because, overwhelmingly, this is a more user-friendly design.
There won't be a third track.
For all you'd ever want to know about the SAS plans, visit the MTA website.
Not necessarily. An island platform which is too narrow and has too many passengers using it can be dangerous. Crowds coming down the stairs on to the platform can push people off the platform edge on to the track.
Several stations on London Underground's Northern Line are narrow islands. Angel was one of these. A second station tunnel with a side platform has now been added at Angel station, taking one direction, while the old station tunnel has had one side filled in so that it now has a very wide side platform. I understood that the safety consideration was one of the reasons for doing this.
Having said this, there are good arguments for making a local station just a single island. You only need to provide escalators, elevators and/or stairs to one platform, with one fare control at the top - that saves money. And of course passengers can change direction without needing a cross-over or -under.
Watch out for that taxiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii......................
Gerry
Not necessarily. An island platform which is too narrow and has too many passengers using it can be dangerous. Crowds coming down the stairs on to the platform can push people off the platform edge on to the track.
You can screw up the design of anything, but assuming adequate platform width, an island platform is more user-friendly. At some IRT stations in NYC, the island platforms are definitely too narrow. That doesn't mean they'd have been better off with side platforms. It only means that the island platforms should have been wider.
can anyone confirm this?
Most local IND stations are side platform stations. You must be thinking of the IND express stations.
I think you and Chris are talking about two different things. The use of the IRT side platforms at express stations WAS a mistake. Not one of them remain in use.
They were 96th St - well the fare control area is still on that one:
14th Street-Union Square (sealed up years ago)
(from joe brennan's abadoned station site)
but you can still see the top of the walls in the "added later" mezzanine
(also from joe bennan's site - this used to be the top of the wall of the wall platform, untill they added the mezzanine)
And Brooklyn Bridge (completely sealed up)
What you are probably talking about is what they did at Penn Station, and yes that was not a mistake. That was to discourage transfers between local and express there, at an already busy station.
To the contrary, there's no point in having an express-local line if there's no way to transfer between the two.
The only place where the transfer is discouraged (not prevented) is at Penn Station on the 7th and 8th Avenue Lines. But, in both cases, the very next station is 42nd Street, where such a transfer is available. The IRT's insight, which the IND copied, was that you didn't need to provide the transfer at two consecutive stations.
Same idea (that was a huge transfer point with the LIRR when new). Also, it acted as a terminal for it's first decade.
But they didn't do that on the 6th Avenue line which has three consecutive island platforms at 50th, 42nd and 34th Streets and two more at West 4th and Broadway-Lafayette.
In this case it wouldn't be as much of a problem as in the 7th and 8th Av. lines because 34/6 doesn't directly connect to Penn Station like 34/7 and 34/8 do.
Koi
All the stations south of Walnut are two tracks with Island platforms. (The last stop is two level with islands on each and two tracks on each).
North of Walnut, it is four tracks under Broad Street with side platforms at express stops.
Boston's platforms tell you alot about the use of the station. Island platforms on the oldest portions of the lines signify that the station was a terminal for trains at one point over the years, with Government Center and Park Street being the only exception since they serve through and terminal trains at the same time.
And as a trend, every new station built since the 1970s in Boston has been and island platform station. No new stations have been built with side platforms since 1959 and even those stations were preexisting side platform stations.
In most cases, island vs. side only applies to 2-track lines, like the Ridge Avenue and the Locust St. (now PATCO) line and the MFL which originally was 100% side platforms, until 30th and 34th were built in 1955, and then when Spring Garden St. replaced Fairmount Avenue around 1980(?).
Since four tracks lines are relatively rare from a world perspective, you probably can't generalize it since they'd all be special cases. However, I'd think that since you wouldn't have a single four track bored tunnel but instead have two double track tunnels, you would end up with island platforms anyway.
Are there any four track lines in NYCT that are bored? I don't believe there are.
Parts of the B and C along Central Park West are four tracks stacked in a single rock bore. The express tracks are the east pair with the uptown track above downtown track. the locals are the west pair with uptown track above downtown track. the platforms at the local stations are also stacked at 72nd, 81st, 96th, and 103rd Streets.
Information from Peter Doughertys "Tracks Of The New York City Subway"
John
With sliding and Plug doors it does not matter.
In a few cases, even stations with mezzanines have no crossovers. There are some examples on the Queens Boulevard line.
Obviously, at stations with island platforms, transfers are possible across the platform -- but bear in mind that most island platforms offer transfers between local and express rather than northbound and southbound.
Why on earth would a designer do that? If there is a mezzanine, surely putting in a crossing facility is easy (and cheap)?
I once got stuck trying to transfer from southbound to northbound at Briarwood-Van Wyck. Signs on the platform instruct passengers to go to Union Turnpike to cross over, but I had just let a train go, so I went upstairs to see what the deal was. The S/A was kind enough to buzz me in.
The single stationhouse at 72nd and Broadway had two separate fare controls (with a narrow passageway down the middle) from the late 80's until the recent rehab. Now the stationhouse has been rearranged so the only (part-time) booth is on the north side of the stationhouse, and a new, much larger booth was built across the street, with a booth on the south side (but still in view of the turnstiles on the north side). So a station which until recently had no crossover now has two.
Incidentally, the lack of a crossover there was especially a pain during the many GO's on the line that ran specifically to enable reconstruction of the station. Passengers were instructed to backtrack at 79th (by ticket -- don't ask me why 79th is any better than 72nd) or at 59th (even though 66th has an underpass inside fare control).
Before anyone objects: yes, a single fare control could be at (say) the north end, spanning both platforms. But IND stations tend to have vast mezzanines with multiple entrances. They can still get by with one booth as long as the middle of the mezzanine is outside of fare control.
Before anyone objects: yes, a single fare control could be at (say) the north end, spanning both platforms. But IND stations tend to have vast mezzanines with multiple entrances. They can still get by with one booth as long as the middle of the mezzanine is outside of fare control"
I still can't visualise this (remember I'm in England and not very familiar with IND station layouts). You have various entrances from the street all giving access to the outside-fare-control part of one large mezzanine, in which stands a single booth. Why could you not then have a single fare control, giving access past the booth to the within-fare-control part of the mezzanine, from which area staircases then go down to both platforms?
The Chambers Street 1,2,3,9 IRT station, which I used last time I was in New York, is arranged as I describe, if I remember rightly.
Not necessarily, even considering your "amendment." A station with a huge mezzanine and multiple entrances can still have a single booth and shared fare control. Rather than describing it, I think it can be explained better in a diagram.
_________________________
| S _________________ S |
| | P P | |
| t paid area t B |
| |_P_____________P_| |
|_S_____________________S_|
This is a diagram of a hypothetical mezzanine. S is a stairway between the street and the unpaid zone of the mezzanine. t is a turnstile bank (here, the left one would be a HEET) between the unpaid and paid areas, and P is a staircase to a platform. Your single booth in the unpaid zone is at B.
If the platforms are "outside" of the street staircases so that the P and S are reversed, swap the paid and unpaid areas in the diagram and move the booth to the inner box.
Mark
Perhaps, with a Flat Fare,it was intended to increase Revenue ?
So (If I understood you correctly) I can't go to the opposite direction platform whithout an additional payment in most cases, do I?
But it is definitely something to be aware of.
They're not. Only platform 10 (tracks 18 and 19) is huge, the other platforms used by the LIRR are about the same size as any other platform in the station. The narrow platform 9 (track 17) is the exception.
Platform 10's width probably has something to do with the narrowness of platform 9 and the "missing" track north of track 18. You'll notice that there are two tracks between each pair of platforms in the station, except for platforms 9 and 10, which only have a single track (18) between them.
Take a look at the columns on the platforms and between the tracks. I suspect that the columns dictated the placement of the tracks. Going further, I'd guess that the station originally only extended north as far as track 17.
Hey, does anyone know anything about the track layout of the station as initially built?
CG
They are RDC.
BTW The brown leaves on the ground on the last part are surrounded by green leaves on the tree. The leaves on the grounds are "props".
BTW, that's not an LRV, it's a regular train.
Those two areas you mentioned have timers, essentially red signals that are timed to the regulated speed of the train to ensure the train operates at or below the speed limit. Both have significant grades on a downhill which require these timers to be put in place, especially entering 149th Street/GC. The signals were installed in the late 1980's to replace the 80 year old signals on the Jerome line and to maximize safety and track efficiency. Usually timers are placed along a subway route track where one of the following exists: 1. Downgrades, 2. switches ahead, or 3. Curves ahead.
The areas are not red-flagged. Additionally at the 149th St/GC station, all timers are automatically set to red when there is a 5 train crossing in front of the mainline track just south of that station. This leads to another general rule of thumb; a train cannot enter the station and must stop and stay on red when there is another train merging with a switch ahead and that train ahead goes in front of the stopped train. So the 4 train must come to nearly a full stop outside 149th st/GC if there is a 5 train crossing in front, otherwise it will enter the station at the regulated timers, the signals are set to.
At least that's what I've always assumed.
Sometimes I forget and tend to think the 4 and 5 jump str8 from 149 to 125...
Then we stop at 138 and I think to myself "WTF for?"
If we were to elect a station for abandonment, 138 MH would get my vote.
They act all mysterious, but it's just the Broadway express tracks going into the closed northern half of 63rd and Lex, to be used by the first phase of SAS. Dumb to be rumaging around active 3rd rail. More of the expedition at the 7/26 post here:
http://ltvsquad.com/
Expected images, except this large entrance provision was a surprise:
http://www.satanslaundromat.com/sl/archives/000368.html
Perhaps it's at the east end of the station, to be opened when the north half is in use?
The stub track area seems to have been taken over by other depts.
Bob
Perhaps it's at the east end of the station, to be opened when the north half is in use?
That appears to be the unopened/unfinished mezzanine at 63 St & 3rd Ave.
It's a shame that they just didn't finish it from the jump street and close it off untill it's ready to be used...
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Yup. The chunk north and west of Sunnyside Yard proper is Yard A, and it's the LIRR's. NY&A used to make use of that yard.
LIRR doens't use that yard any more.
It's kind of difficult to use that yard at the moment, as all of the tracks have been removed. It's only a temporary thing, though: the ESA tunnels will go beneath Yard A, and the tracks will be replaced and used for storage of Grand Central trains.
Yeah, the whole thing with NYA no longer using Yard A was part of the deal. The same deal that screwed LIRR out of running trains on the garden city secondary. It was for NYA to leave the Garden City intermodal and Yard A, and in turn, LIRR would give them Hicksville yard.
WARNING! Large image below!
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
MNR FL9 and MBTA F40 pulling Cdot constitutionliner, Amcafe, and a load of marc cars.
5-7 years ago on thanksgiving... up at RTE 128
Now next question the new building that on the right hand side of the 7 line going into Hunter Point is that a LIRR Barn?
You can probably take some pics of Yard A by taking the 7 to Hunters Point.
That depends on which direction you're facing!
does anyone know if LIRR will be built lay-up tracks there?
It sounds like you're talking about Yard A. If so, yes - there were tracks there once, and there will be tracks there again.
You'll get better pictures of Yard A from the window of a 7 train before arriving at (or after leaving) Queensboro Plaza. You can also get off the train there and get a good look from the Queens Boulevard viaduct over the yards.
At Hunters Point on the 7, you'll see the yard and new shop building at Arch Street.
I've actually just looked at the MTA site and seen pictures, most of the stations after Main Street are Side Platforms. Therefore all they would need to do is 2 trackways on the opposite side of the platforms (creating unofficial island platforms. And placing walls facing the inside tracks. or flip flop the services by having the 7 in the middle and the LIRR on the outer edge bypassing Stations up to the Cross Island Pkwy.
If not could they possibly double deck the LIRR over the current tracks to bypass the current stations in Queens which would then be covered by the 7 train?
Arti
Also, you could extend the 7 up the Whitestone Expressway, then east along the Cross Island Parkway to Whitestone landing, kinda like the old LIRR Whitestone line. That should take some people off the PW line.
Officially, the names IRT, BMT, and IND are no longer used, and the old systems are now designated as the "A Division" (ex-IRT lines), "B-1 Division" (BMT lines), and "B-2 Division" (IND lines), following the Chrystie St Connection opening in 1967.
It's also used as the names of the radio channels.
There are two locations I know of where "Change Radio" signs are posted:
Southbound at Church/McDonald: to B1
Northbound at Queens Plaza: to B2
South end of Southbound Platform: Change to 'B1'
North end of Northbound Platform: Change to 'B2'
Who controls the territory btw? DeKalb? Essex? W4?
--Seth
The punch at the south end of Grand serve the same purpose as those at the south end of Canal Lower - to alert DeKalb as to what's coming over the bridge, so that X144 (B'way) and X154 (6th Ave) can be set correctly at Gold St.
IIRC: The shuttle's T/O should have keep their radios off unless of an emergency correct? Lets say they were at Grand St and had a problem, who would they call? And what frequency for that matter?
No. The radio should always be on. Otherwise, you wouldn't know of any problems elsewhere that might affect you.
Lets say they were at Grand St and had a problem, who would they call? And what frequency for that matter?
B2 Control Center.
A T/O said it best, [overheard through the cab door] "DeKalb, I'm just gonna STOP PUNCHING"
When you're done, you look again ... was it a B, was it a D, aw qwap, drop the ball and get the call on that mystery inbound. Guess I've known too many tower people in my days. Heh.
You guys should all get SubTalk belt buckles so us railfans can identify one of our own kind in the monkey suit :)
This has been stressed ad naseum.
Is that really cool "bucket brigade" circuit still in use to
carry the punch request information across the bridge?
Once I've been issued my official signal clipboard I'll go check!
Because unfortunately not all T/Os punch correctly.
When I work Utica Ave I get at least 3 incorrect punches.
Expecting a S/B #6 N/O Brooklyn Bridge, but due to a GO all trains were required to punch at the HS north of BB (forget the #, supt's orders). Get a route request punch for Track 2.
"Southbound Train at X ball, come in to Grand Centeral with your call letters."
"Hey Grand Central, This is the XXXX out of Pelham."
"Ok, XXXX Pelham, please punch correctly."
"This is a #6 train, Grand Central. There's no #6, just Track 1 and Track 2."
So OBVIOUSLY we just punch an arbitrary # instead of finding out the correct request.
So, now give me a reason now to take a T/Os punch when I have cameras to identify the train. I'm not putting my job on the line because the T/O doesn't know which button to push.
In the above-cited "DeKalb, I'm just gonna STOP PUNCHING" story, Dave missed the set-up:
Q approaches X144, having already punched at Canal St for a line-up, calls DeKalb and IDs itself as the ZZZZ Q 57/7. Then watches as the switch moves and the automatic beyond the interlocking comes in - ON THE WRONG TRACK.
"I said I'm a QUINCY! DeKalb, I'm just gonna STOP PUNCHING!"
So, with a correct punch, a radio ID, and a visual from the camera, what was the problem?
I thought the complaint was about bringing the train to a near stop period. Unfortunately if the TA placed the cameras better and/or got better cameras, bringing a train to a near stop isn't necessary.
Now that you've told the whole story, there should be no problem.
Unfortunately some TW/Os are obsessed with keeping trains in order, no matter the cost. This may have been one of those cases.
This is especially true at 59 St Master where the attention span is so short if trains were sent out of order by one end at the other a train would get a wrong lineup (I have visited as a C/R but never worked at 59 St since moving up, so this clears me of acting dumb :) ).
Hopefully this sheds some light on Stupid Tower Tricks.
Go figure in the same room they can't get it straight, but 2 adjacent towers blocks away (Canal and 42-8) don't screw it up.
First B into 145 middle. Punch at 135 for B, get lined up for C. Get that changed, go down the hill, get lined up for the Bronx. Sent for a random one day; warned replacement about this. He was amazed because they did it to him just like I foretold.
Because they are local towers.
Can you imagine how screwy things are gonna be with everything centralized in one place at the RCC?
David
The former IND. What i find interesting is how they label post-unification lines. Is the lower level of Archer Ave B1 or B2?
Sorry about the double post
B division = BMT+IND (the lettered lines)
B1 = former BMT lines
B2 = former IND lines
B1 and B2 are for the most part unified as the 'B' division because the trackage and tunnels were designed to be interchangeable, and numberous track connections were built. Most lettered lines in fact run on both IND and BMT trackage. The B1 and B2 nomenclature still exists because there are some slight differences between operation on the BMT and IND systems (different radio frequencies are used, for example).
Basically:
A (IRT):
The West and East side IRT lines (1/2/3/9 and 4/5/6)
The numbered lines in the Bronx (1/2/4/5/<5>/6).
The Flatbush Ave. line in Brooklyn (2/3/4/5) and the extensions to New Lots (3/4) and Flatbush Ave. (2/5).
The Times Sq. Grand Central Shuttle.
The entire length of the 7 line.
B1 (BMT):
The Southern Division in Brooklyn - the Culver (F in Brooklyn), West End (D/M in Brooklyn), the Brighton (B/Q in Brooklyn), Sea Beach (N in Brooklyn), and 4th Ave (R, plus N/D/M for some length, in Brooklyn).
The Eastern Division in Brooklyn and Queens - the J/M/Z (Broadway (Brooklyn) line) and L (Canarsie line), plus the trackage connecting to the J/M/Z (Nassau Line) and L (14th St. line) in lower Manhattan.
The Broadway (N/R/Q/W) line in Manhattan.
The Astoria (N/W) line in Queens.
The Franklin Ave. Shuttle.
B2 (IND):
The 6th and 8th Ave lines in Manhattan (A/C/E and B/D/F/V in Manhattan), as well as the entire length of the A and C lines through Brooklyn and Queens to the Rockaways.
The Concourse line in the Bronx (D).
The Queens Blvd Line (E/F/R/G/V) to 179 St.
The Crosstown (G) line.
The B1 and B2 divisions were merged to a great extent by the 1960's era Chrystie St. Connection, which gave the 6th and 8th Ave. IND lines direct access to the Manhattan Bridge and the entire BMT Southern Division. But even earlier the BMT Broadway (Manhattan) line was connected to the IND Queens Blvd line, and the IND 6th and 8th Ave lines were connected via the Rutgers St. tunnel (F) to the Culver line, and the Culver line was connected to the Crosstown (G) line. The IND E line was also extended by way of the Archer Ave. subway from the Queens Blvd. line to run atop the J to its BMT terminal at Parsons-Archer, but there are no track connections (they just run on two separate levels). Finally, the 63rd. St. connector allows both Broadway and 6th Ave trains to access the IND Queens Blvd. line, and will eventually connect to the 2nd Ave. subway.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
David
So, instead of getting off as I had planned at union Turnpike, I rode the thing all the way to 179. Whew that thing was fast.
Oh, and the "Red Birds" on the track were a couple of R33WF's ("Redbirds") at the tail end of a garbage train, which I saw as the F train passed Briarwood.
I must admit that when the F runs express on the way home I'm happy, even though my station is bypassed. I'd rather walk from 7th Avenue or wait for the next train if it means a fast, smooth ride.
Can anyone explain why that is?
Amtrak's F40 did this, and so did NJT's when they were new. Since the passenger cars require a constant frequency AC power for lights etc, and the generator on the locomotive was directly connected to the main traction engine, the latter had to run at a constant speed, which was 900 RPM or thereabouts. Idle or maximum power, same 900 RPM. But it's a DC locomotive.
LIRR's current diesels also supply lighting/HVAC power from the prime mover-- but the inverters supply the constant-frequency AC, so the prime mover doesn't have to run at a constant speed. Still, when connected to a passenger train it never runs at idle speed.
As for freighters, the sound of the engine is still a pretty good indication of the power it's producing-- but Run 8 on the throttle (maximum power) doesn't always mean maximum engine RPM, like it used to. Usually does, tho.
He will be missed by millions who listened to him on crackling, staticky transistor radios for the last 42 years.
Subway link: Murph would often mention the fans standing on the ramp of the 7 train stop at Willets Point, as well as the 7 itself.
Murph was a part of every summer of my life!!!!
I shed many tears today.
Jimmymc
I hope he's hiiiiiigh in heaven, now. ;-)
R.I.P.
Although I watched the 1969 divisional clincher on TV and Nelson made the call during the last out (Joe Torre gounded into a 6-4-3 double play, Harrelson-Weis-Clendenon), Murph's radio call is perhaps even better known. It's to Met fans what Russ Hodges' call on Bobby Thomson's home run is to Giant fans:
"The crowd shouting 'We're No. 1....the Mets made up 15 1/2 games since the 13th of August. Lou Brock is on second and Vic Davalillo, the runner on first with one out...ninth inning, 6-0 New York, Gentry working hard here against Joe Torre....now in the set position, here's the pitch....ground ball hit to shortstop, Harrelson to Weis, there one, first base, DOUBLE PLAY!!!! THE METS WIN!!! IT'S ALL_LLL OVER!! Oh, the roar going up from this crowd! An unbelieveable scene on the field...fans are pouring on the field, the ballplayers trying to get to the dugout. Congratulations to Gil Hodges and the New York Mets."
Although I didn't hear Murphy's call on that play until later, I remember the game quite well. Kiner was interviewing players in the locker room afterwards and Tom Seaver was whooping it up more than anyone else.
Speaking of Seaver, Murphy was calling play-by-play on TV the night Jimmy Qualls broke up Seaver's bid for a perfect game with one out in the top of the ninth inning on July 9, 1969. We had just gotten home from Florida that day and I watched the game that night.
I hope they still play his recorded greeting heard at Shea as you enter the stadium. He will be missed.
May he rest in peace.
I remember all three of them very well. Nelson left after the 1978 season and did Giants games for a few years after that. Murphy had a number of phrases he liked to use. For instance, a long foul ball "had the legs" to be a home run.
In those days, the three of them would rotate between the TV and radio booths every three innings. Murphy called the last three innings of Tom Seaver's 19-strikeout performance on 4/22/70 on TV, and I got home from school in time to catch the last few innings. Seaver struck out the last 10 batters he faced, still a major league record for most consecutive Ks in a game. He kept hitting the strike zone so much that Murphy would simply say, "Strike one! Strike two! He struck him out!"
Kiner did commit a few gaffes here and there, but AFAIK he never pulled anything like Jerry Coleman's "Rich Folkers is throwing up in the bullpen" slipup.
BTW you do remember Nelson doing Notre Dame highlights for all those years, don't you? "With the score still the same, we move to further action."
So I pull into the station and the train is late. I decide the game should be over so let me listen to the interviews. That I can handle. I turn on the car radio - I'll never forget this - and all I hear is the crowd at Shea roaring and roaring and roaring. And I'm like, don't tell me! Don't tell me they actually won the game! And after what seemed like about 20 minutes (but was probably 20 seconds) Mr. Murphy came on the air - he sounded slightly hoarse - and said something like, "So there you have it, what has got to be the most exciting, totally thrilling and unpredictable end to a World Series game in the history of the Fall Classic." It was really magical and Bob Murphy made it even better since he was so obviously as thrilled as any fan.
Gonna miss ya, Murph!
Naturally, a few days later I found myself in the city - the day after the ticker tape parade, of all days. There was a World Series pennant at the Wendy's on Nassau Street, and when I asked where they git it, they wouldn't tell me. I picked one up later out here in Denver.
I also remember Murph reading the ads for "Khan's BIG MET Franks, be sure to pick them up at your local King Kullen...", and plugging events like "Mets' Tankard Night", and "Fireworks Night". When I met him in 1999 he told me that he loved visiting San Francisco for two reasons, one it's a great restaurant town and two it had the best summer sleeping weather in baseball.
And I remember him talking about people streaming in off the ramp from the 7. It's too bad the MTA didn't have him voice track some automated announcements for the line.
If you watch the clip of J. C. Martin in the on-deck circle during Game 4 of the '69 World Series, you can see a 7 train going by in the background.
Sadly, other piece of the original Mets has left us. This will make the rare appearances by Ralph Kiner appreciate him more.
--Mark
I'll be there.
Murph was the Mets' Mel Allen.
Is this done for a reason. Is the one time percentages better for train #1? Does it encounter less thingsthat get in the way on this trip? Are there a lot of freights in the middle of the night? I just picked train A because the window's 2 hours versus 6.
Are the chances great that I'll end up having to wait for the 6 hours train though? It looks like this train starts at raleigh 2 hours later at 7 for the sole reason of my train getting to it. And the windows are the same coming back(though I could care less if it's 3 days late returning home). :)
Do you guys think the same on this one?
say a non-amtrak train can get from point A to B in 1 hour. Amtrak can also get you there "on time, and on schedule" in 3.
On card # 6 (Subway Serviced was extended to Bay Ridge, Brooklyn) exactly where is the entrance pictured located? Does it still exist?
I find it interesting that they would put an entrance directly in front of a private house like that.
Also, Governor Pataki floated a trial balloon in the press several months ago about extending the E train to Brooklyn.
We'll just have to wait and see what happens.
Imagining the connection could be made then what. DeKalb Av probably couldn't send those extra 15 tph anywhere but slow.
Someone asked about routing the E through the Montague St tunnel. It isn't going to happen. While the E and the R/W pass quite close to each other, connecting the two would require either a grade crossing (unacceptable) or a flying crossover (expensive). If they were going to build a flying crossover, the time to do it is now--while the area is still a construction zone. No such proposal is even close to being on the table.
One of the community groups suggested routing the E through the Montague tunnel, but their solution was to terminate the R/W at City Hall. Unsurprisingly, this proposal went nowhere.
There will be a viaduct connector from Airtrain to the LIRR at Jamaica.
New trains will be used that can run on both lines.
Has anyone read about the proposed below-ground passageway connecting the 42nd Street stations on Sixth Avenue and Times Square? According to Bank of America's press release on their new New York office tower at One Bryant Park, this is part of the plan.
My question is about the old transfer between the Sixth Avenue and Times Square subway stations. Is this "new connector" really a re-opening of this old transfer passageway?
I never heard of a transfer tunnel between 42/6 and Times Square.
Closest I can think of was an out of system passageway from 34/6 to 34/7. But it was never a transfer point.
I can think of where this 42 Street transfer might be. But I never heard of one actually been there. If you heard this from Bank of America, I'd like to see their website.
I know the infomation will be made clear as time goes on.
I was wondering where w_fan_not heard about the tunnel.
Now I know and that should be the end of that.
I doubt if you'll let this thread end here.
It is also similar to the 50th st passageway from 7th to 8th Aves, or the new concourse from 49th st/BMT to 49th st/6th Ave. A new concourse linking Rockefeller Center opened a few years ago with the construction of a new building at N/E corner of 49th Street/7th Ave.
I am not familiar with these. Can you explain further?
Anyway, go to the N/B side of 50th St and 8th Ave/IND, you will see a passageway towards Broadway 50th St/IRT station (my mistake, it's not 7th Ave).
In any event, being able to go from 6th to 7th without having to go to 5th, downstairs, take a train to Times Sq. and upstairs again is a break for 1,2,3, N, Q, R, W riders coming from 6th on a wet day.
Gerry
I wonder if this group would be able to create a map of grade-separated (underground, overground, along the river) pedestrianways in Manhattan, both open and closed.
It would show anywhere that you could travel a distance without crossing a street with traffic, including the riverside walkway at Battery Park City and the interior of Rockefeller Center. I'm sure such a map would get people thinking about exapnding the network.
On a related note, I noticed that the MTA's Midtown neighborhood map has a connector between 50th/Broadway and 50th/8 Avenue. I always wondered if that was some hidden transfer that I didn't know about.
And there is a connector (Out of System) between the 50th/Broadway downtown side to the 50th/8 Avenue uptown side. Also at those 2 stations there are no underpasses to the other platform. The connector is only open during daylight hours. I forget the exact times at the moment.
Phil Hom
Public Amenities
With approximately three times the public circulation space required by an as-of-right high-rise office building, the Bank of America Tower will accommodate and contribute to the surrounding pedestrian and transit circulation. Public amenities will include widened sidewalks, public street furniture and an urban garden room located at 43rd Street and Sixth Avenue, which serves as an inviting extension of Bryant Park.
The design also incorporates a new glass-enclosed subway entrance with wider stairs and an elevator at 42nd Street on the southeast corner of Sixth Avenue. An underground pedestrian walkway on the north side of 42nd Street will link the B, D and F subway lines to the Times Square station and a new mid-block subway entrance on 42nd Street will connect to the below-grade walkway, in addition to a special through-block passageway featuring a "Broadway Wall of Fame" with interactive information kiosks.
Now, if we can only convince the owners of Manhattan Mall and the Pennsylvania Hotel to rebuild the connection from Penn Station to Herald Square, that would be something. I never understood why they didn't do it to be able to set it up with stores along the length. I would think that the rental income could pay for the rehabilitation and adequate security.
Unless I am daydreaming so early in the morning, I think the Bank of America made a big boo-boo. The southeast corner they are referring to, where there will be a huge glass enclosed entrance and elevator, is actually the corner where Bryant Park and the Ben/Jerry's Ice Cream kiosk is located.
I also wonder if NYCT will now incorporate full ADA access to the 42nd St/6th Ave and 5th Avenue stations into their future plans. Having an elevator from street level is worthless, unless NYCT can build 3 more elevators to each platform.
David
But this will be another big boon for Times Square, and Midtown. I am excited at the prospect of walking from 5th Ave/42nd st to 9th Ave/41st st, totally underground.
Actually, NYCT regularly claims to have 468 stations. A little analysis shows that, for the purposes of this figure, station complexes within the same fare control count as more than one "station."
If this passageway were inside of fare control, I don't think it would be a commonly used transfer, since most of those lines have other connections that are more convenient.
W Bwy
http://jimmysanders.bravehost.com/nysubwaya.GIF
<7> is easier to type than "Purple Express to Flushing." Trains simply need exact designations.
The only way this would work is if each line had its own personal color, but you have left the colors the same, so there are FOUR red trains on 7th Avenue.
The current number and letter designations are fine, although the letter designations *could* be replaced with an extension of the number system.
So far 1-9 is used, number 8 should be left unused as a reminder of the 3rd ave el. So now we got A-Z, minus H, I, K, O, P, T, U, X, Y.
So from 9, add about 17 more numbers to it. It'll be even worse that way.
there are to many different lines for them all to get a unique color. there are only so many shades of blue you can use before it starts to get confusing.
Like the red line has many norht branches and a number of south branches...
North Lines
================
Red Line Local Van Courtlandt Branch
Red Line Express Lenox Branch
Red Line Express White Plains Branch
South Lines
===============
Red Line Local South Ferry Branch
Red Line Express Flatbush Branch
Red Line Express New Lots Branch
And all the conductors will be saying "This is a Red Line Flatbush Express train...Times Square next. Stand Clear o' the doors."
Yeah. Right...
Starting in the year the FULL Second Avenue Subway opens.
SAS
Or as the Cincinnati Reds had to change their name to the Redlegs during the McCarthy era, take the red train (stops in Moscow?)
But even in London, where the colours of each line are standard on the map, nobody says take the Brown line, it's the Bakerloo line, take the black line (Northern), the Green (District), the Red (Central), the dark blue (I think, Picadilly), the light blue (Victoria), the violet I think (Metropolitan) and of course the yellow (Circle).
Incidentally, perhaps they should paint the coaches the appropriate colours...in some cases and please somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, there is some sort of colour motif within the carriages to go along with the colour of the line. At least it seems that way to me but not in all cases.
That only works because the lines are either not connected (at least not in revenue service) to each other or that the rolling stock is incompatible. The notable place where it breaks down is on the subsurface lines:
A Stock - Metropolitan and East London Lines (this works because no-one rides the latter)
C Stock - Circle, Hammersmith & City and Wimbleware District Lines (total mess)
D Stock - District Line (most of it) (unrefurbished)
I remember some A stock having signs saying both Metropolitan and East London in the windows but others being just for the Met.
Yes. They show all three lines on which they run on the same diagram (as they all share tracks).
I remember some A stock having signs saying both Metropolitan and East London in the windows but others being just for the Met.
The ELL is a short line, running half-length trains every 5 minutes max. New X Depot isn't anything like on the scale of Neasden, so for serious jobs, cars get swapped around. This means that there are a limited number of trains on the Metropolitan Line which also happen to show the ELL strip map.
That is my ultimate pet peeve right there. It's the one thing that bugs me the most about people (especially out-of-towners) using the subway. The next time I'm in the NYC subway, and someone asks me, "Can you tell me how to get to the [insert color here] line," I'll say something along the lines of, "There's no such thing in New York!"
In fact, I'm in the process of drawing a map with NO colored lines, in an effort to stop people from calling the lines by color. I posted it here.
(btw i mean this jokingly, don't take it to seriously)
The same thing could happen with the orange (B) and (D) versus the (F) and (V)
2. Now a change to the Q train itself. It is now known as the Gold Line. Follow the line on the map thats, well, gold (or light orange).
Letters make the most sense for a system this large.
Using different colors would be confusing, but ways should be found to make more use of the existing colors.
They are already used on maps and timetables, but they could be used for instance on station name signs and tiles.
I don't think it is useless to tourists. As in London, you don't actually refer to the lines by their colours (though the tourists can, inside their heads, if they want to). But the colour system makes the map easier for the tourists to follow. Now that the colour code has been in use for quite a while and is familiar to residents and frequent visitors alike, it should not be fundamentally changed.
My girlfriend (who lives in Ewell, Surrey, (one stop beyond the zone 6 boundary... grrrr) so can hardly be called a tourist) refers to things like the "light blue line" at Vauxhall and the "brown" and "black" lines at Waterloo. She can't understand the lines which go to the City at all. I played a trick on her the other day by taking the "purple line" (aka a Fast Aldgate) to Barbican, grabbing a coffee, then getting on the "red line" at St Paul's - the lack of an interchange symbol made her think they were a long way apart! It's probably a mars/venus thing being able to understand line names and multiple stations serving one area...
Or on the trains themselves.
It would be nice if you could just add an x to warn people that local stops will be skipped, for example B1x etc.
Trouble is, so many trains can't make their minds up. The E is express in Queens, local in Manhattan. B is even worse, local in Bronx and most of Manhattan, then Express the rest of the way.
Bottom line, you can only fix the notation and the maps so much. If the service pattern is fundamentally designed to confuse, no amount of tinkering at the edges will ever fully mask this.
The one change they should make is to re-sign the Lefferts Blvd "A" to some other letter. This is a train that many tourists board by mistake, not realizing that it doesn't go to JFK. It doesn't help that many of these tourists have English as a second language. This is something that could be changed quite easily.
Especially since rollsigns have two extra, unused letters with the color blue that could be used*: H and K.
*Do the new R-68 signs installed in 2001 have these?
It's That Time....
www.transitalk.info
More Pictures, Another Sound Recording (Rail) and another Movie. New Sections opened includes MTA-LI Bus and Queens Surface with updates to the MTA NYC Transit, Academy and SEPTA Pages.
Click The Train To Enter...
Regards,
Trevor Logan
-Chris
Seriously, great update, and now the LIB section sees the light of day.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
If I'm right, say so, If I'm wrong, please tell me why NYCSS trains last longer. Thanks.
This is my last post until tomorrow when the post quotas are reset. This is post #30.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
Exactly my point.
-Chris
On the other hand, the 1981-85 vintage GMC RTS buses are in the process of being retired, sold or scrapped after 20 years in NYCT service.
Also The BMT "Q" date from 1903 and lasted to 1969 (66 years), but I do not consider that a record because there were fully rebuilt in 1939/40.
Obsolescence may also be a factor. Either trains and planes are easier than buses to rebuild to the latest standard, or it just makes more economic sense because they are worth more. Of course, NYCT is replacing all the old diesel engines on its buses with low pollution models, so bus rebuilds are possible.
Now, one runs on rails and the other does not so its like 2+2.
SAS
Okay, I admire how you can compare the life span of a bus, to the life span of a train. Busses aren't as expensive as a train, so a TA can affoard to replace a bus every 20 so years. A train, unless you receive diamonds as your fare collection, cannot be replaced every 20 years without there being some financial problems. Thats number 1.
2. Again, I admire your comparison of the life span of a bus to a train, being that those two vehicles go through totally different environments, different technology, ect.
That is priceless, 9 train!!!
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Levi Stubbs (Audrey II): ""
Funny.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
(1) Electrically driven vehicles have rotary motors; internal combustion engines are reciprocating. The latter cause more vibration of the whole structure than the latter, hence shaking it to bits sooner.
(2) Internal combustion engines produce corrosive exhaust fumes. Electric motors don't. More corrosion of the structure of buses also occurs.
For both reasons, trolley buses (trackless trolleys) are also long-lived beasts.
Off topic for Subtalk (but snuck in here because I don't post on Bustalk): The London Routemaster bus design just hit its 50th birthday. Quite a lot are still running, though most of the survivors are a mere 36 years old or so. But hurry over to London; this could be the last summer with Routemasters on the main trunk central London bus routes.
(2) Internal combustion engines produce corrosive exhaust fumes. Electric motors don't. More corrosion of the structure of buses also occurs.
For both reasons, trolley buses (trackless trolleys) are also long-lived beasts.)
If trolley buses are as long lived as trolleys, than I guess the motor and not the ROW has to get the credit.
In any case...you answered your own question....
Subway cars have to lasts much longer than buses,because
1)where they operate
2)withstand collision...with other rail cars
3)carry large passenger loads.
Good call...young man....
"http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid132/p992c31d49784d56584251d6a1065463b/f792b58b.jpg.orig.jpg"
So cut off .orig.jpg
Please check the spelling, or try one of the items below.
Search the Web:
Sorry, we could not find Sorry, we could not find "http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid132/p992c31d49784d56584251d6a1065463b/f792b58b.jpg
Please check the spelling, or try one of the items below.
Search the Web:
Try Searching the Internet on These Relevant Key Words
Image Image editor Rimage
Management image Image screensaver Image archive
Nervous system picture Web image Microscope picture
Flower image Image search Image scanning
Image picture photo Image editing Print image
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Imaging technology Star image Imaging solution
Image converter Jpeg image Convert image file
Image conversion Imaging program Angel image
Just letting you all know. ;)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Here, I'll make it a bit more on topic:
Your pal,
Fred
http://de.geocities.com/m_pix4/athens/athens.htm
http://www.athensguide.com/newmetro.html
http://www.ametro.gr/top01024eng.htm
Good luck!
-Chris
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
In germany is no war. Hope, that he haven't to go back.
--Mark
Where is he in germany? Friedberg?
Later in the day ( about 2:30 PM) , I waited at Whitehall to time the Brooklyn bound R Trains. The headways were 8 min, 8 min, 14 min, 4 min.Even with the 14 minute wait, the train had no more than 60% seated passengers and no standees so the service is probably okay if you justify by economics. Let's face it, the subway will sometimes feel like the LIRR or MNRR wating for the train in non peak hours. If schedules are kept to and posted at the stations and that saves good money, why not? Us train "nuts" may not be happy, but money talks.
And yet you perpetuated the fraud by not correcting the subject line when you made your reply.
We all were concentrating on the Centennial version and the International version that this one got missed becasue it never got posted here (to anyone who did get one and not tell anyone - SHAME ON YOU!!).
Apparently, these were not made available in the TM Store or at the infromation booth at GCT. I found them in GCT though - in the Station Master's office (to the right of the TM Store). Just as you go through the glass doors you will see a big wooden display rack with lots of schedules/timetables for services that MNRR connects with and also The Map - in the May regular version.
You may want to check it out.
It says "Free 2004 (includes service changes as of May)".
The cover looks like what the regular version would look like (blue box). The inside also says May 2004.
I was as suprised as you are.
A hearty yasher koach goes out to SubTalker Allan (no last name given) for alerting us all of the availability of this seemingly rare map. I picked up the last one on the rack at the Station Master's office at GCT.
Good thing I asked the Station Master for a stack of them :-)
Thanks again Allen!
I posted the cover shot on my site too:
Subway.com.ru
I wonder why the MTA held these back for so long - maybe give the Centennial map a good distribution exposure.
Usually they distribute the regular map first then followed by the International.
:)
Of course all these maps might have been printed by May but not distributed until June, July and August.
Operator Abandons Metro Train in Rush Hour.
IMO, the TO and those at command center who authorized her to leave, and the folks who should have been watching the board but didn't see the train sitting still for so long, should all be sacked. Period. No disciplinary action, no reprimands, just kicked to the curb. Not only was this an inconvenience, it created the potential for a serious security incident.
Furthermore, that no one at control noticed a train sitting still with no contact in a mid-line station during a peak travel time says something is majorly wrong with procedures. This is especially worrisome since The District is on code orange and the panic-mongers should have been having major conniptions over an in-service train laying down. Why didn't control contact the station manager to go check things out, instead of the pax having to go to him/her and get a runaround?
Like I said, some heads need to roll for this, and in a very public way.
John
It will be interesting to see what transpires as a result of this. The word from a mutual friend of mine and Jim Graham's is that he's hopping mad over the incident. Our circles overlap a fair amount, and I'll ask him about it myself if I see him in the next few days.
As for the operator that abandoned his train. This demands some form of disciplinary action with sanctions.
John
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
It sounds to me like the points to investigate are
1. Why there wasn't a second T/O there to relieve the first one
2. Was the first T/O even susposed to have been authorized to have relief at that point?
3. Why were the keys left in the console and the door to the cab left open?
Seems to me like number 3 is the most serious question here. An abandoned train causes delays but an abandoned train that is turned on can be a safety issue.
Also, an interesting note about WMATA history, back in the 70s IIRC, the opposite of this happened, and a train was left in ATO when the operator stepped out at the Brentwood Yard platform. The train continued in service just as it should have, except at the time, the doors were not programmed to open automatically, so the train would stop at each station, the doors would not open, and after 10-15 seconds, the train would continue on its way. At Metro Center, an employee was there to key open the door near the cab and then open the rest of the doors, but a passenger who figured out what was going on picked the lock and opened the doors herself.
It seems like a strange place to do such a relief. Unless there was a delay earlier, why would you want to change at Van Ness?
This reminds of an incident many years ago on the Red Line. An operator got off at Brentwood but left his keys in the console. The door closed ( only one door on the platform) and the train took off. The train sat at Union Station for about a minute and then went on to Judy Square. The train sat there for a minute and took off.
A passenger used a bobby pin to jimmy the lock and at the next station pressed the hell out of the emergency button. The train dumped its air and she waited for management to show up.
Michael
Washington, DC
Michael
Laughing in Washington, DC
Anyhow, are you pretending that you are the employee that left the train, or are you saying that you, as a passenger, would enter a restricted area (the cab) and make such an announcement.
If I was to get into a cab to use the radio in an emergency, I wouldn't be leaving my name. Just call Control and get out of there.
Michael
Washington, DC
Now to be be real for a minute thats crazy if it happen in NYCT everyone be going downtown with Demotions and Terminations.
Look's more like.....if there's no trouble.....cause some!!!
Jimmymc25
There's an entire chain of command that needs pulling on with regularity of the bowl of state turns brown. If MTA is short on funds, I know EXACTLY where to flush. But it'll never happen, they're mostly political appointees. That's why nobody wants to apply some Ti-D-bowl. :(
What are good subway lines to ride and get a good head-end view out the front window. I understand the Canarsie line is no longer a candidate since the full cab front even has a polarized glass window and you can't see much. That's too bad since I have NEVER ridden the L.
I'd love to head end-on a Brighton or Sea Beach or West End or Culver train. Which have the right equipment for my purpose? The Slant 40's are ok, am I right. But which others.
I know most of the IRT roling stock is ok, but I'm not really interested in a trip up the Bronx. We were always Brooklynites..... Of course; I will not be carrying a camera!
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=745862
For the Brighton Line, use the B train, all of it's rolling stock are R40 slants and modified sets, 1 half of a train has a few R42's mixed in with the R40M's. Avoid the Q, they use R68/R68A sets with drunken RF windows.
Avoid the Culver, unless you want to wait for an occassional R32 on the F. They are plenty during rush hours, but the line is unpredictable, most of them that run on the F are R46's
You can visit the West End line, by utilizing an rush-hour M train, they all have R42, RF-friendly windows. The D is the full-time route and they use the R68, which as you know, have drunken RF windows that make you see double or triple.
The Sea Beach is cool, but most of the equipment is R68 or 68A, there are a few R40 sets on the N, but not much.
And don't forget a trip to the Rockaways on a R32 or R38 A train. You might need patience to wait for one with Far Rock or Rockaway Park as the destination (many are R44's), but it's worth it.
The B, C, E, J, M, and Z are all quite railfan-friendly, and the A, F, L, N and W come through often enough to be worth the wait. Word has it there's a single R32 consist on the Q and a couple on the R - good luck finding them though. On the IRT side you'll have the best luck with the 7, though there are isolated reports of railfan windows occasionally on the 3.
Then I'll take the R to DeKalb and get a B to Brighton - has to be a slant 40 with me at the head end window! Looks like I'll have to change for a Q at Brighton to go on to Stillwell. Then I'd like to do an M or D back along the West End to Bay Ridge, have one of those fine Pzza's with my bud in that area (anybody know Lento's) and drive back to Phily. I'm excited.
(1) All of his appearances on Bowling for Dollars on Channel 9 in the '70s.
(2) A game in 1984 when the Mets were just starting to get better after years of being horrible. The Mets had just taken a big lead, like 10-1, into the 9th inning at Shea. The other announcer (I forget who) says to Murph, "well, it looks like the Mets are going to win this one." Murph, wise and toughened by years of losing, said just one word in response: "Maybe."
That one word encapsulated everything it meant, and still means, to root for the Mets.
Click on the image for all the details.
Also due to G.O.'s there is no C service and fron Brooklyn F, requires a change from G train to F at Hoyt St.
The main problem appears to be with the 18 minutes time limit on unlimiteds.
Why doesn't the MTA program the turnstiles not to accept the same card more than once in the same station (regardless of which entrance or bank of turnstiles is used - if more than one at that location) for a longer period - let's say an hour.
The more time required before the card can be reused at that station means the more unlimiteds the swiper would have to buy, drastically reducing their "profit margin".
The 18 minute limit could still remain in effect if the card was used at a different station. The swipers would have to move around a lot then. You can't make much money if you have to keep going from station to station to station. By keeping it available at a different station messenger services should not be adversly affected.
Just a thought.
It's no wonder that as long as these people patronize these scumbags, there will be an underground market for swipers. Arresting them will send a clear message that the full fare should be paid when riding the system. You also begin to wonder how these people buy the rides at a discount from unauthorized channels, are the same people crying over the next fare hike.
My suggestion would not reduce the need for police monitoring of the swiper situation but would just make it harder for the swiper to operate.
An arrest for Theft of Services is a misdemeanor, and a night in jail, waiting for arraingment. The arrest also uncovers a warrant, if the person has as such. Maybe having a criminal record will make other people think twice about beating the fare, like so many people did in the 1970's and 80's.
If a person impersonating as a collecting agent, was on board a NJT train and was collecting fares for 50% off the legal fare charged by NJT, is that considered what you called "free enterprise".
Now, if this fellow was sold a large batch of valid tickets by NJT he should be allowed to re-sell them at whatever price he sees fit.
Why would it matter if the person is an agent at all? All that matters is the quality and price of his product.
Also, swipers try to find as many expired Unlimited Ride cards as they can, then bend the magnetic strip in a certain way to allow the use of the card.
Then the MTA needs to fix it's software so that dosen't happen any more.
To a swiper, who's undoubtedly a dirt ball, it's a joke. To a "swipee," on the other hand, a summons might be much more significant, as most of them presumably are otherwise law-abiding citizens who would want to avoid any conflict with the police.
The police can't be at every station and even if they are called the perps are generally long gone.
I think since the existing methods can't be as effective as they should be an alternative has to addressed.
Peter Rosa mention that swipers bend expired cards to make them work.
NYCT needs to address that problem by making the cards from heavier stock, and modifying the read heads to not read a card stripe with a crease in it.
The rest of the idea is good - a 45 minute or more lockout when an unlimited card is swiped at any station. No swiper can possibly have enough cards to operate.
first offense $65
secound offense $130
third offense $260
Three stikes and your out!!! You are banned from entering the subway system.
Those vandalizing MVM's and other MTA property should have stiffer sentance
This would put an end to both swipe their purchacers
Thier is no reason to ever buy a swipe
You must punish the buyers and run advertising letting the public know
the same should be done for dollar vans
Pull a van over, ticket everyone aboard(the only way to do this is to have a under cover aboard noting who paiD)
If the S/A does something like call the police the swiper might pour a flammable liquid on the coin tray of the booth and light it. By the time the police arrived the perp would be long gone.
Did prohibition laws make the problem better or worse? Did laws against gambling make the problem better or worse? The problems in those areas went away only after they were allowed to revert back to legal private business community. A swiper should be treated no different than the guy selling soft pretzels or flowers.
Aside from catching the swiper another way to reduce these offenses is to remove the "benefit" of the crime (or at least make it harder to accomplish).
Do you have a better and more cost-effective way of keeping felons (like John Taylor, the Wendy's killer) incarcerated? Let us know.
If the system is broken fix it, don't try to patch it with laws.
Yep, there are no swipers at PATH stations.
Arti
Neither of those two recommendations would make the swipers economically undesirable if they sell swipes at $1 per.
What about a tourist or some elderly person who has no idea that buying swipes is illegal? Imagine the kind of 11 o'clock news coverage and the absolute public outrage that would create - sending some tourist family or some old lady to Rikers' Island or the Tombs... the mayor and the NYPD will be buried so deep in doo-doo they'll need a TBM to extricate themselves. The negative PR and community outrage generated in such a case would make the WMATA eating case look like a friendly puppy.
I don't understand the logic of those statements! It's because the MTA knows where swiping is happening that the fares are going up? Huh?
It is probably possible to write a program to detect the typical Swiper pattern of use, which is very different from ordinary use of the turnstiles (six or eight different unlimiteds being used in rotation at the same turnstile). If so, why doesn't the MTA use such a program to flag up where this is happening, and then quietly send a plainclothes police officer round there to catch the guy. The officer can watch a person being swiped in, and then make the arrest - not get swiped in himself, because that could be called being an agent provocateur. No station agent will have been seen telephoning, because the system will have detected the swiping itself.
Last night at Church Ave/IND F station, I saw a kid going to the HEET area and he was testing his "deck of cards" on the Metrocard reader. He sees me, and went back to the manned area on the opposite side. I followed him inside fare control as he was outside fare control. Seeing this, he quietly left the station. No picture was taken because I did not see him involved in an unauthorized sale.
I doubt that such instances would account for a lot of extra usage.
i just know that with my luck, i'd be the innocent one who'd have to suffer somehow if your idea was implemented.
i think perhaps posting signs right above the turnstiles stating that paying swipers results in raised fairs might deter a few people, especially tourists who don't even realize its illegal.
You can't even get the MTA to put No Smoking signs on the stations.
It only happens once in a while, but it's a major inconvenience when it does happen.
Rector St on both the 1/9 and R/W lines, is one example.
And the 18 minute limit doesn't apply if you use the card at least twice before returning to the original station.
Peter Rosa mentions in this thread that swipers bend expired cards to make them work.
NYCT needs to address that problem by making the cards from heavier stock, and modifying the read heads to not read a card stripe with a crease in it.
The rest of the idea is good - a 45 minute or more lockout when an unlimited card is swiped at any station. No swiper can possibly have enough cards to operate.
The cost of those changes might exceed the fare losses caused by swipers.
The stock need be no heavier than WMATA's farecards, and the mods to the read heads is software, not hardware.
This swiper problem is unique to New York and exists nowhere else. It's squarely the fault of NYCT, and nobody else. They short-shifted the programming, it's up to them to fix it.
But using heavier stock cards leads to problems with existing systems because the cards won't fit into MVM, booth computer or bus farebox slots.
Reprogramming the read heads to block creased cards will harm many people legitimately using creased cards, they would be forced to mail in cards for replacement.
WMATA does not have a swiper problem because it has exit swiping... passengers need to keep their card in order to exit and the card wouldn't work for an additional entry until its been used to exit and it can't be used to exit until it has been used to enter.
Different places have different fare systems. In places where you have to swipe in and out, for example, a passenger who had been illegally swiped in would be stuck inside the system! I've never seen a swiper in London, probably for precisely that reason, even though (AFAIK) there is no 18-minute delay on London unlimiteds. The Paris Metro is swipe in but not swipe out, like NYC - does anyone know if they have swipers in Paris? (The RER is swipe in and out, though.)
Anyway, not everywhere has unlimiteds. Some places have more reliable ticket machines, some places have more ticket staff so you don't have to queue up so long at a booth, etc., etc.
I managed to swipe out and in again at Mornington Crescent on Tuesday within about the 2 minutes it took me to take a couple of snaps and buy an Evening Standard. I wish I'd spent more time there as when I got to Euston, I found that the delayed 1745 had just left and they'd cancelled the 1810.
Both of these have happened to me as a foreign visitor, even though I'm fairly subway-savvy. In the "please swipe again" case, I was at the staffed entrance and I just went to the booth for help - hearing my English accent, the agent let me in. In the wrong side case, my wife and I went to get a coffee while we waited the 18 minutes, but an hour's wait would have seriously disrupted our day's sightseeing - we would probably have had walk to a different station, in fact.
Remember that tourists are among the most likely people to be using Funpasses.
There is only one or two PCs per station controlling everything, so there is only so much it can do.
I think the suggestion was that the software should be altered centrally - essentially to change the shut-out period from 18 minutes to 60 minutes. It wouldn't be necessary to reprograme every PC separately.
If anything, it is the UK's equivalent of San Francisco's F-Market line although I would suspect that several of Blackpool's cars are older than the PCCs.
P S: I wonder if i've still got my bucket and spade in the shed ?
The "Balloon" double-deckers were built between 1934 and 1935, per this page . . .
Define "real Brit". You're close to the Welsh and Scottish borders, not to mention on the Irish Sea, so your chances are greater of meeting a real Celt.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!
The Celts were a continental people. The insular ones were called Britons, Picts, and Hibernians. You can thank Caesar for pointing out that difference.
It was true that for many years Blackpool was the only tram system, but the Brits are, like many cities in North America, experiencing a revival of trams, as is nearby France, which had been down to just three cities, Lyon, Marseilles and St. Etienne (both used PCC cars). Now that country has about a dozen systems operating or under construction. Those of you who have never been abroad should plan a trip there - it will be a real eye-opener.
They didn't need to relocate off the road or onto a 'light rail' they were there in the 1920s. :-)
Quiz question: are Blackpool and Hong Kong the only two places in the world with double-decker trams running in ordinary revenue service? (Melbourne, Australia, a British-influenced city with an extensive old-style tram system still running, is entirely single deckers and I believe always has been. Trams in New Zealand cities, when they existed, were all single deckers too.)
As a point of information, one of Blackpool's open boat trams is a permanent part of San Francisco's historic fleet, operating on the F line. This tram started its life in Blackpool, came to the United States for the Bicentennial, where it ran for about two years in Philadelphia, returned to Blckpool, and then made another journey across the sea to San Francisco. It is the most popular trolley in the City by the Bay.
Joe: "Yes, "normal" transit type operations. However, in Seaton in England there is a system that uses trolleys (trams there) that are not full sized and at least one is a doubledecker, I believe."
I was aware of the Seaton line in Devon (which actually runs along the RoW of an old railway branch line, relaid with narrow-gauge track). The trams are indeed not full size, and they formerly ran in Eastbourne in Sussex - in a part of the town entertainingly named "The Crumbles" - and where I rode on them many, many years ago.
Joe: "As a point of information, one of Blackpool's open boat trams is a permanent part of San Francisco's historic fleet, operating on the F line. This tram started its life in Blackpool, came to the United States for the Bicentennial, where it ran for about two years in Philadelphia, returned to Blckpool, and then made another journey across the sea to San Francisco. It is the most popular trolley in the City by the Bay."
That's nice to know! Though presumably you are not comparing it with the cable cars?
Lake Success-served by local, express, and super express buses
Herricks-served by all buses(only locals on this route)
Tanger Outlet Center-served by local buses only
Service alteration:
Splish Splash Water Park now only limited service during months it is open
New services comming:
I'm working on 5 new local(LIB type) bus routes for eastern nassau and western suffolk. They travel north south between Bayville and Jones Beach as well as to places like Huntington, Farmingdale, and Sunrise Mall.
www.freewebs.com/islandtransitli
-Chris
.
Here's a sample from the Brooklyn and Queens area. Tell mw that you think about it. The R44-46's and the R142/142A/143 cars don't have any colors on them, so the trend now continues!
1. I would like you to tell me what you think about the map, and
2. Letters/numbers that appear white-on-black indicate rush hour service (a replacement for the diamond).
Otherwise, I like it. Now all the tourists and clueless New Yorkers will be confused!!
"Can we take the black line train?"
"ALL of the lines are in black!!!"
Also, the colors probably help people who can't read English well.
Anyway, A and 5 are even worse. A routing code that is ambiguous? Sensible.
Well, the merits of simplicity which Harry Beck achieved, and which have made the London map so valuable for the last seventy years, come at a cost of omitteing some detail. After all, it doesn't tell you that all the "green line" (!!) trains that come from Edgware Road go to the Wimbledon branch, either, or that the other "green line" trains that go to Kensington Olympia come from High St Ken.
With the District, Wimbleware needs another colour, and the Olympia shuttle should be a dashed green line throughout.
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/subway/
is one of the few really sensible subway map ever made.
Eh, I dunno about that one. I can see maybe Asian people being confused but most other languages use letters similar to our own. And if not, they're symbols unique to that train. As far as numbers go, pretty much everyone uses Arabic numerals and therefore probably won't confuse anyone.
The only problem I could see is trying to communicate to a non-speaker verbally. What we refer to "W" is "doppia vu" to an Italian speaker. R is "erre" to a Spanish spaker. "E" is "I" to both. trying to communicate color would be more difficult as they include more than one syllable of a strange sound to a foreigner.
i'm sorry you have that pet peeve, but visually, colors do the job most efficiently and are easiest to decipher.
Jamaica will look like two lines (one IND, one BMT), with two interchange stations.
The problem comes when you get to where the R train joins the IND in Queens or where the B and D join the BMT in Brooklyn. The solutions are:
(1) multiple lines (messy)
or
(2) fading from one color to another where the line of one division is about to merge into another (which I think looks cool):
INDINDINDINDINDINDINDINDBMTBMTBMTBMTBMTBMTBMTBMT
Although we know how the lines go and can easily decipher your map, I believe a tourist would say, "WTF?" when presented with a colorless map, then take a taxi.
However, you did a good job and it was an interesting concept!
No, it's not. The three divisions however are already dead and have been for a long time.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Here's the piece for the Lower Manhattan/Downtown Brooklyn area.
-Chris
-Chris
til next time
Let's see how long this will take.
New Lots line?
This is the park across the street from the NYCT Learning Center, with the West End in the background.
Well done Alex, I was inside the playground by the Marlboro Houses, about 1 block south of the park you mentioned.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Staff writer Martin Weil contributed to this report.
© 2004 The Washington Post Company
It is not a good idea to abandon your train in the middle of the road! TOing is not an office job - the workplace is supposed to move around and pick up people, and to do so at regular times. To do otherwise means a loss of ridership.
Any other tidbits of your wisdom you wish to share with us?
Not to everyone.
Chuck Greene
Chuck,
Thank you for posting the full text of the Washington post story. I saw the other post but was unable to read the story on the Washington Post web site because the passwords at bugmenot.com would not let me in.
Thanks,
John
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Then I want you to think on how things like this can never happen again, so we can all read intelligent posts made by intelligent people, okay? okay.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
As for you, go read a book you little waste of sperm.
-Chris
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
The city bankrupt, no Smith/9th....
Toga party?
After that post, I really think you are a troll.
then the toga party...
FOOD FIII-IIIII-IIIGHT!!!!!!!
The city took the money for new routes to save the fare[but it went up anyway]
City declares bankruptcy. Defaults on payments to creditors (bond holders, contractors, consultants etc.). Negotiates settlements with creditors (90 cents on the dollar, 75 cents on the dollar, 10 cents on the dollar -- it all depends on how bad the financial situation is and where that particular creditor stands in the legal pecking order of who legally gets paid first. Eventually, everyone is paid off and the city again has a positive balance.
Nobody in their right mind ever lends the city money again -- at least not at anything resembling a competitive interest rate. (Remember, in the late 70's and early 80's the competitive interest rates were well into the teens -- NYC probably would have had to put out bonds with interest rates in the mid-twenties in order to raise capital for any kind of construction.
So the answer to your question is (I think) -- Almost nothing that the city built, renovated, rehabilited during the period from 1975 - 1990 would have gotten done. Presumably, by 1990 or so, the city would have built up enough of a credit rating to start borrowing again.
As far as transit implications, MTA is a state issue not a city one, so I suspect the effects would have been minor. DOT busses (did they even exist at the time?) would have had to have been paid for in full.
Hopefully some of our resident experts on the city during that era will check in with a more complete answer.
CG
If it had walked away from its debt and pension obligations, it would be better off today. It would have been forced to renovate its infrastructure on an ongoing basis, but it would have had the funds to do so. As it is, those SOBs repeated the Lindsay years, statewide, as soon as they had the chance.
Perhaps, if one only considers dollars and cents issues.
If I recall correctly, though, you entered the workforce in the late 70's or so. Would you have even considered taking a job in NYC Civil Service if you knew they had walked away from their pension obligations? Could NYC have hired a single police officer in the late 70's if they didn't have the carrot of a pension after 20 years to hang in front of recruits?
Not paying one's debts has tremendous implications -- for people, corporations and governments.
Police work is sufficiently attractive to enough people that there probably would have been ample numbers of qualified applicants even without pensions.
Getting back to the bankruptcy question, I believe it was a terrible shame that the city did not file. It would have allowed the city to get out from under any number of costly contracts and leases, forced financial discipline through curbs on future borrowing, and would have placed control of the city's finances in a board not accountable to voters. It would've been a great opportunity to make massive spending cuts in ruinous programs like Medicaid.
That sounds as if you're implying that democracy is a bad thing. Why would putting power into the hands of people without any accountability to the voters make for better (and less corrupt) government? "All power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Actually the trains still run quite well in Italy, even after almost sixty years of a fairly corrupt democracy!
As an historian, I can't help feeling slightly sympathetic toward Mussolini. He made one bad decision - allying with Hitler. However, it's pretty clear that it's the only thing that would have kept those nasty Nazis out of Trentino - Alto Adige (tanks powered by rubber bands don't quite cut the mustard... "we'll have to hide that armoured car when marching to Berlin; we'd almost be ashamed of it in Rome"...) and it gave him some faint hope of gaining the lands promised to Italy by the Treaty of London (aka the most dishonorable moment in British history) at least giving him the Adriatic as a Mare Nostrum, even if they were too pathetic to have anything more.
How about the use of mustard gas in Eritrea. The reason mussolini made the trains run on time is that the penalty for an engine driver who brought his train in late often was a bullet. The Italian people gave him what he had coming for good reason.
We used mustard gas in WWI too. You have to see these things in terms of the times they were, not our sanitised version of war in which no-one need get hurt.
Yeah and we'd've done the same to the Zulus at Isandlwhana (or however the damn place is spelt) if we'd invented them yet. It sure ain't magnificent, but it is war.
in violation of international law.
International law played a much smaller rôle before WWII. That may be something that's changed for the better, but you can't judge people on anachronisms (except at Nuremburg trials*).
* NB - I'm no Nazi (you should know I'm quite the reverse), but I do find the entire basis of those trials a bit dubious.
In world war I, the combatants were somewhat evenly matched, the gas was more or less kept on the battlefield
It was only constrained to the battlefield because of the logistical difficulty of releasing it behind enemy lines, not because of any principled stand against doing so. I can bet the Gerries would have filled London with the stuff given the chance. So did the governement the second time round, so everyone got given gas-masks.
and chemical weapons were not banned yet.
They weren't banned when the Italians were in Abyssinia either.
Why?
The problem with Nuermberg is that the other co-conspirator, Stalin got off.
Arti
Arti
Of course.
«impending A-Bomb test would turn out we needed the Soviets to help us defeat Japan, so we thought.»
I was more thinking of, what to do with the third A-bomb.
Arti
Not really, but the real issue is communists.
«My favorites are the Poles and Israelis, though.»
Then you should remember who two started WW2 by invading Poland.
BTW wasn't it the anniversary of Warsaw Uprising just few weeks ago when the commie "allies" just let the nazis slaughter poles?
Arti
This reminds me of a classic moment of British TV comedy - the Germans episode of Fawlty Towers:
Basil: "Don't mention the war. I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it. So it's all forgotten now and let's hear no more about it. So that's two egg mayonnaise, a prawn Goebbels, a Herman Goering and four Colditz salads....no, wait a minute...I got confused because everyone keeps mentioning the war."
German: "Will you stop mentioning the war?"
Basil: "You started it."
German: "We did not start it."
Basil: "Yes you did, you invaded Poland..."
On a more serious note, the way the Poles, sponsored by the Soviets systematically cleansed Eastern and central Prussia of all Germans was utterly despicable.
It was a common practice in Eastern Europe. The same happened in Checkoslovakia, former Hungary, and ironically in Western Ukraine, Byelorussia and Lithuania (former Poland) to poles. And of course in Kaliningrad (Konigsberg).
Arti
What about the military leaders who were executed (Keitel and Jodl)? The German military fought hard, that is certain, but it wasn't responsible for the Holocaust.
Not communists as subscribing to certain ideology, but as members of a criminal organization.
And some 10 years later in US, it was not such a good idea to be associated with communism either...
Arti
The 1925 Geneva Protocol banned the use of chemical and biological weapons. Italy signed the protocol in 1928.
Il Duce did a lot of good for Italy. He drained the Pontine Marshes, turning them from a mosquito-infested waste of space to prime agricultural land. His public works programmes were amazing. You should see some of the new towns from that era, particularly Latina (formerly Littoria) and Sabaudia (which was designed and built in 253 days - now that's how to get things done). The EUR (Roman Universal Exhibition) was a great success and did much to promote the works of men such as those you mentioned and served to spur on some bloody good (for those days) excavations at Ostia. Oh, and to keep this vaguely on topic, there would be no Rome metro were it not for the Fascist era.
There's no doubting he did bad things as well as good, but let's give credit where it's due and keep things in a degree of perspective.
It sounds strange, I know, but the sad fact is that New York voters have proven themselves scarcely capable of self-governance, a state of affairs as true today as it was in the 1970's. For a variety of reasons, most notably the strong control of public-employee unions and other special interest groups, voters demand extraordinarily lavish levels of health and social service spending, yet don't seem to understand that the high taxes needed to pay for this spending act as a powerful disincentive to businesses seeking to locate in (or remain in) New York.
I know, the arguement could be made that New Yorkers deserve the right to govern themselves no matter how poor the results, but in my view the extent of special-interest control already perverts the democratic system far beyond recognition. For instance, the health care workers' union, known as 1199, is probably more powerful than any union in American history except maybe for the UAW in 1930's Detroit. And to find another newspaper with as much influence as the (pro-big government, anti-business) New York Times, you'd have to go back to the days of Pravda in the Soviet Union.
Wonder who's in charge of New York City and why the office of Mayor and City Council are purely FIGUREHEAD? You guys could elect Donald DUCK, wouldn't matter. New York City was taken away from you back in 1975. Ever wonder why *I* moved out? Just like today, under the Shrub regime, you were bought, sold and traded on the open market and nobody noticed the coup d'etat except for those dismissed by the rulers as "liberals." :)
Behold ... HERE'S WHO RUNS NEW YORK CITY (and the TRAINS) ...
http://www.fcb.state.ny.us/ NYS FINANCIAL CONTROL BOARD - THIS agency was supposed to "sunset" on June 30, 1986. However, like the state budget, the end is STILL nowhere in sight and New York City is *STILL* owned ... by Paturkey, Bruno, D'Amato, Rohaytn and Chase Manhattan whatever they're called now ... the CURRENT promise is MAYBE by July 1, 2008. But that's in "state budget days," not REAL time. :)
And THEN there's ...
http://www.osc.state.ny.us/osdc/ NYS Office of the State Deputy Comptroller for the City of New York (ever wonder why Hevesi wanted a gig in Albany?) ... the servers are down for the financial offices of the state as I speak (no budget) so if it's STILL unavailable, a Google cache of it is here:
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:73Tz91NVk8wJ:www.osc.state.ny.us/osdc/+new+york+city+municipal+assistance+corporation&hl=en&start=4&ie=UTF-8
Can we say *OWNED* boys and girls? Nope - just like today, nobody's noticing while Biff and Bunny CNN chirp away about more important things like KOBE and WMD's ... you're ALL *owned* ... :(
I never joined the pension system, because one way they paid for the debts and pension obligations of the 1960s and 1970s was to make the benefits for new employees much less generous. So much less generous that if you can be counted as provisional and not pay FICA you come out way ahead.
Now the police are different, because their pensions were not reduced. But the bottom line is that the city met the obligations of the past by sucking money out of the future. And they have just done it again, enhancing the pensions of those with seniority in 2000 and signing a contract that pays future employees 15 percent less earlier this year. This is about the third round of boom, richer benefits for those with seniority, bust, lesser benefits for future employees.
And after this latest contract, if it would mean paying dues to DC37, I'd think twice before taking another public service job.
That happened anyway. The city would have been able to spend more, at a given level of tax, because it would have had lower debt service. It would not have been able to borrow.
The release of the finance phase of the 2002 Census of Governments is imminent. When it's out, I'll be able to tell who pays the most taxes around the state. Back in 1997, a few upstate counties had higher tax collections as a share of personal income, but they also had a large number of second homeowners sharing the bill. Tioga and Chemung had the lowest taxes.
Just like your phone bill, our sausage-crafters can bury a bill in your dead relatives. And now that the legislature's done NOTHING, we're going to get the shaft once more so Long Island doesn't have to pay their fair share. It takes a bit of effort to outdo a few other states as the most CORRUPT government there is ... and ya notice, since it ain't a democratic government, congress is doing nothing about the crime wave either. :(
Wish I'd gotten a tax cut ... even a few pennies would have helped. Wife needed to see the doctor yesterday. No food for a couple of days. And so it goes. :(
If you REALLY want to have some fun, check out the money distributed by the feds to the states for "Code Orange and four year old data alerts." Maine and North Dakota got the SAME dollars. Do they have the same expenses? Wonder why the MTA has to fund the "Attack on New York" instead of "America?" I'd be looking there if I were an economist - no offense intended. :(
That's how NYC is different. Our taxes are higher, but we have a local income tax in place of some of the property taxes. Your situation is pretty close to impossible down here, but then the rents are another matter. If you have computer skills and can't earn a living up there, perhaps you need to tap into the market down here. The computer industry got so clobbered in the recession that when demand picks up there's bound to be a shortage.
In any event, if you can tell me the school district I can tell you how much it spent, relative to the national average, in 2002. In general, schools in the rest of the state are like hospitals and home health care in NYC -- spend too much, employ too many, screw taxpayers and NYC schoolchildren to pay for it.
As far as the "computer skills" go, I don't speak Hindi but am willing to learn. Heh. I'd be MUCH better off in France or Australia or even Calgary ... but I *like* it HERE ... I just wish I could AFFORD to be a redneck. :)
That pretty well describes most of the Long Island school districts, staff rosters loaded with "coordinators" and "deputies" and "assistants."
Robert Moses wrote this regarding the bridge.
First. There is no way in the world this expressway was going to relieve traffic to the Holland tunnel. All you have to do is look at Jersey and see both extentions (NJ Turnpike, 1/9) are all backed each and every day during rush hour. There are only two tunnels and that highway would have been a parking lot full of cars going no where.
Second. The locality around the bridge would have become a red-hook type neighborhood. There are plenty of slums that exist just under the an elevated expressway.
1) what's LoMex?
2) why would anyone from Long Island ever want to go to NJ?
2. Beats me, I try to avoid both.
Haha, well seeing that you actually live on Long Island that may be tough (or is there a bridge between Nassau and Queens).
Well, there is one carrying Linden Blvd over the Cross Island Parkway between Elmont and Cambria Heights...
Well....it is quite a bit down 25A from the county line, but there is the little neck bridge......
It's the Lower Manhattan Expressway that Robert Moses wanted to build across Chinatown and the Lower East Side. It would have provided a high-speed roadway connection between the Holland Tunnel on the west, and the Willy/Manny bridges on the east side of Manhattan.
Believe it or not, it is quite common for people to use this route to travel between New Jersey and Long Island. It would have become a helluva lot more common had this road been built.
http://www.nycroads.com/roads/lower-manhattan/
Here's the mid-manhattan link, which is interesting in that development would be promoted above it (in most proposals), so that vehicles would have passed through the buildings (much like the Hemsley Building on Park Ave, I guess).
http://www.nycroads.com/roads/mid-manhattan/
This one would have been a very useful road IMO (as opposed to Lomex, which was iffy), mainly because I am one of those guys who often goes from Long Island to Jersey and back...
1) A lot of tenements get knocked to the ground, and inhabitants are forced to move into high-rises.
2) Lower East Side slum spreads into Chinatown, Little Italy, and the Village, and ultimately become some Spanish-speaking slum (and the Asian and other immigrants flock to somewhat safer areas). Violence surges in lower Manhattan.
3) Effects on midtown uncertain (remember, a CBD is still a CBD, and many cities DO have highways running through CBDs). Office development might proceed at near-original-timeline pace, but there would be a great many more parking garages.
4) Travel btw New Jersey and Long Island would be easier, but would adversely affect Manhattan (after all, why stop in Manhattan if you could just breeze through?)
5)Greater suburban sprawl than in original history; more decay on Manhattan itself than original history.
6)Outerboroughs might prosper a bit more than in original history, though (but not sure of such an effect).
7)Railroads and subways adversely affected, of course.
I have one which involves a preacher. This Hispanic preacher, who used to be a drug addict, was preaching about deity and how his deity helped him through it. In each persons' face he said Jesus. He literally went to each person and interrupted each person. When he got to me, I walked away and he said, "Don't run away." And then he started throwing bibles at me. He chased me down to the exit and threw his last bible.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Did this happen before or after you started calling yourself DefJef?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Some people make weird assumptions these days...
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-James