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Then again, railpictures.net tends to have creative reasons for photo rejections.
I gave up contributing to them awhile back.....because I sent the very same photo that someone else did (two days AFTER mine....theirs got posted, mine didn't. But they were one of the cronies.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Who appointed this dick?
Can anyone get rid of him?
Lose the curse words.
Or at least be consistent. The second obscenity diametrically contradicted the first.
: )
Mark
What exactly did he do?
-Chris
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19122-2004Jun30.html
Now I can see Mdlbigcat's point.
-Chris
This may sound too crazy, but WMATA could invest in some single-unit cars for situations like this, or maybe an A-B-A 3 car sets.
1. He has a great sense of musical taste.
2. He wears red lipstick!
3. He takes the F train.
I had to stick on #3 in order to make this post compliant with decorum. :)
No way. Buffalo Bob was OK; this guy's a dork.
That's way too far.
That could describe all of us!!!
You can't get rid of him as long as he has the governor's support.
Michael
Washington, DC
The G1 was a real waste of resources and did not need to be kept. The N11, N13, and SmartMover are cross river options that should have been retained. The B11 had potential to work out but it was set up to fail, unfortunately. The N7's story is well known and the route had been recieving only state funding for the past few years. WMATA cut funding for the route back in 2001 IIRC. I don't know much about the C18. Virginia's refusal to assist in funding the N11, N13, and SmartMover and DC's refusal to assist in funding the B11 contributed to the demise of those routes.
Uhh, that's interesting. I didn't know gonads and sexual parts of the human anatomy ran railroads. :-)
Or ruined them, for that matter... I knew they've brought many a railroad bathroom to grief (well, the male ones anyway).
: )
Your disapproval of him is uncalled for. While he may have Republican tendencies, I don't think anyone can really do some things differently considering the current budget situation.
til next time
wayne
Does anyone have pictures of 7773? This site needs one. :)
"Which redbird was your favorite,mine's is the R33ML"
Joe I don't believe that we've ever met on any of the fantrips but is obvious that you are gentleman who appreciates a work of art when he sees it. I don't need to name my favorite. I just have to sign my name.
Larry, RedbirdR33
2nd Place Favorite: BluebirdR33 or R-33WF
til next time
til next time
Difference: I have *respect* for pro wrestlers. Hey, anyone who voluntarily gets thrown off a 15 foot high platform for the entertainment of others, fake storylines or not, has some mighty cojones in my book.
And we've already seen that wrestlers can be politicians - has the reverse happened yet?
While the security costs are daunting, and the hassle to the average commuting Joe yet to be seen (they say rush hour delays will be minimized -- we'll all believe that when we see it) one can't argue that the revenue to the city also adds up fast.
One quick fact I was able to find. The RNC has reserved 18,000 hotel rooms in Manhattan. If you figure on $200 per room and an average 5 night stay per room, that's $18 million in hotel revenue. At 13+% hotel tax and 8+% sales tax, that's also about $4 million in sales tax revenue -- for lodging alone. Factor in meals, transportation and other tourist spending and the number gets bigger.
I suspect that revenue to the city and costs are probably closer to being equal than they are to being a huge money loser for the city. Tourism-related businesses make out like bandits.
CG
Unfortunately, even foot access to some areas is going to be restricted.
One quick fact I was able to find. The RNC has reserved 18,000 hotel rooms in Manhattan. If you figure on $200 per room and an average 5 night stay per room, that's $18 million in hotel revenue. At 13+% hotel tax and 8+% sales tax, that's also about $4 million in sales tax revenue -- for lodging alone. Factor in meals, transportation and other tourist spending and the number gets bigger.
You have to take into account the number of rooms that would be occupied by other people during the same time period were the RNC not being held. From what I understand, NYC hotels are running around 75% occupancy; using that figure, the RNC is adding about 4,500 room occupancies.
You're not analyzing the problem correctly. NYC has 70,000 hotel rooms. If 25% of them are vacant on a given night, then there are 17,500 empty rooms. So the 18,000 rooms the RNC books represent 17,500 additional hotel registrations and 500 that would have been booked by someone else, anyway.
In reality, the 500 number is slightly higher (and the 17,500 somewhat lower) since some of the rooms in the 70,000 will probably go unbooked anyway.
CG
New York could have minimized disruption by holding the RNC at the Javits Center rather than MSG. Javits' lack of subway service would not be a major deal because most delegates will be transported in a fleet of chartered buses.
I have a folding bike.
I don't live in Boston.
The Bottom Line:
It doesn't matter to me.
Good Luck NYC in August:)
Gerry
At Atlantic Ave. I was waiting for the Q when a CTA (Cleaner) was already ticked off when a N/B Q train left the station. She mentioned " where is the train." and I knew she was waiting for the B train. I told her the B was not running and advised here to go upstairs for the D. There was an off-duty T/O who noted that "she should've know what times the trains were running." Sure I could've said that but I didn't. I told her to use a map and look at the service grid at the lower right side, below Coney Island.
But that sure was a tad funny (and unusual), an NYCT employee that didn't know how the B line operates.
After all, cleaners are supposed to provide accurate travel directions to customers that they interact with during the performance of their duties. Since it was 10:30 PM and the map said the B operates until 9 PM, then it should be clear to the NYCT employee that she should not be waiting for the B train at that time of the evening.
I can't think of any other industry that would require it's cleaning staff to have anything more than a vague understanding of its operations. Most wouldn't require any understanding whatsoever -- nor would any be expected by their customers.
Random NYCT employees are not expected to memorize subway schedules.
til next time
I've seen R44s with "LONG ISLAND RR"
R44=LIRR
R46=Metro-North
til next time
It's part of the contingency plan for when the M-7s break down en masse and everything else is gone.
Zach
D to Brighton Beach!
All I said was that the Side Signs in R-44 and R-46 cars can display Metro-North and Long Island RR as destinations..
Suppose NY Penn Station was shut down for any extended period of time. NYCTA could operate specials to Jamaica from 34th and 8th with the destination sign "Long Island Railroad" via the Queens Blvd Express tracks or something. The trains would stay on the NYCTA, but they'd be operated in lieu of LIRR service between Jamaica and NYP. Having "LIRR" on the destination sign and some P/R folks out there to direct traffic might reduce confusion among Commuters who needed to get to Jamaica to get home.
Zach
D to Brighton Beach!
-Broadway Buffer
Have a good Fourth
-Tom
They could probably function, but for how long? I think a variable dropping resistor (resistance) inserted somewhere in the mains would keep the electric field from building up too much current flow. (At least that work for me when I was designing power supplies, for my CW tranmitter, when I was a kid) :)
-Broadway Buffer
Have a good Fourth
The higher voltage on the NYC damaged the subway cars' motors.
Your pal,
Fred
If it is, how does someone get into London?
I have a friend leaving this afternoon, Wednesday, July 1, for London.
Any information will be appreciated.
Thank you.
The tube strike did happen (6.30 p.m. Tuesday-6.30 p.m. Wednesday).
"If it is, how does someone get into London?"
Well, that depended where you were coming from! National rail was running, so most people were o.k. as far as their central London main line terminus. From Heathrow Airport, the Piccadilly Line wasn't running but the (expensive) Heathrow Express would have got you as far as Paddington. The other airports aren't served by the tube, so their various rail options would have been working normally.
Once in central London, you would have had problems. Extra buses were running, and the Docklands Light Rail and national rail services would have helped a bit in certain places.
The worst-ff commuters would have been those from areas where there are no national rail services near by - with the Woodford-Epping area probably worst hit.
My only complaint is that on the projects page they mentionthe Schuykill Valley Metro, but not the Roosevlet Boulevard subway project.
Mark
Sean@Temple
P.S. So far i do enjoy the new site. It no longer looks vintage 1998
Mark
Mark
Of course, some of the less needed addresses (i.e. anything Market-Frankford or Broad Street Line (except maybe the Ridge Spur)) are available as well... and slightly wrong. Fern Rock Transportation Center is NOT 5900 North Broad Street, nor is the Regional Rail half of it WEST of 10th Street. Just plain 10th & Nedro would do fine.
BTW, what's with the weekday usage percent at the RRD stations, and why no weekend usage percent? And doesn't Thorndale have 450 spaces?
#3 West End Jeff
R62s from Corona are Major Serviced at CIY.
In any event ALL trains entering or leaving the Flushing Lion from the rest of the system must do so via the BMT Lion.
Because the trippers on the IRT and the BMT are on different sides, a PILOT car with dual trippers must be used on these transfers.
So this is just a normal C-Division movement.
Elias
A link in the text, "bumpy domes," leads to an Accessibility page, where text related to Bumpy Domes reads as follows:
"Bumpy domes along the platform at all key stations alert customers that the edge is near, and flashing lights indicate arriving trains. Large, electronic signs on each platform announce train arrivals and delays. (See stations with bumpy domes)."
What exactly do these so-called "bumpy domes" look like? Are they similar in appearance to the ADA tactile warning strips along many platform edges in the NY subway?
The WMATA ones can be viewed in this photo. Look between the regular red tiles and the granite edge.
-Chris
I have every recording on the L except for "This is Canarsie-Rockaway Parkway."
I also have some from the 2, 4, 5 and 6 (including "This is a Bronx-bound 6 train, the next stop is Fulton Street" from when a GO sent 6 trains to Brooklyn.)
If you want some of the recordings, just say so!
-RJM
-Chris
Note: These are from the R143 trainset with the updated recordings (i.e. "The next and last stop is 8th Avenue)
-RJM
My email is SINY_R143@aol.com.
Thanks.
-Chris
Sorry!
-Chris
I figured they never did since their interior displays STILL say:
"_______ NEXT"
Given the efficiency of substation transformers (high), and the efficiency of rectifiers (nearly 100%), etc etc etc, there's probbably little difference between the two these days. Of course, that assumes DC third rail Vs 60hz overhead AC. Vs 25hz overhead, third rail wins hands down because of the losses converting 60hz AC to 25hz AC (Substantial).
If you want to be pendantic, leakage currents on third rail are probbably a lot higher than overhead.
R-32.
R-32.
R-32.
Boston's Blue Line uses both, third rail west of Maverick, overhead east of Airport and both in between those points. The overhead avoids icing problems on the outdoor section which is quite exposed to the elements, while the third rail is necessary in the tunnel due to clearance problems.
The Red Line to Quincy is all third rail, with heaters approximately every 50' to help prevent icing.
Gerry
Matt
If you're running enough trains, the 3rd Rail should remain clear. If you apply similar wintry conditions to catenary, it will sag and eventually fall down. If the 3rd Rail's iced up, you can still run diesels. If the catenary's down, your whole railroad's screwed.
Not so pedantic, since this is the chief reason there is no new third rail installation nowadays, save on limited-clearance railroads (such as subways).
BTW: Where does the AirTrain get its power?
Me thinks you knead a knew lion!
The politicians that run the PANYNJ. Not from the two-seat ride it necessitates . . .
Not to mention, being elevated means less chance of ground leak & loss.
Depends ,of course, on the system of electrification used.
Some Overhead was used on 600v DC.
Trolleys and LRVs can get away with using overhead 3rd rail and not getting socked with substations every 2400 feet because they operate at lower amperages. A trolley might only take 800-1000 amps off the wire, while a subway train sucks 1300-some amps. Since you have V=IR, where V is voltage in Volts, I is current in Amps, and R is resistance in Ohms, you can lessen the effects of voltage drop on the system. 3rd rail overcomes this by decreasing the resistance by making the cross sectional area of the 3rd rail very large. Trolley overhead overcomes this by lowering the amps, due to their lower power needs. And AC Catenary systems overcome this by raising the voltage so high that barely any amps are needed to provide the same power that the 3rd rail provides at 1300amps.
The 3rd rail / catenary debate has been going on since the earliest days of electrification, and it never seems to end.
Most high speed rail uses overhead high voltage ac service. Because you are using long lines of high voltage ac, you get, in addition to resistance, a good deal of self-inductive impedance and/or capacitative loading (with the ground as the opposite plate to the wire).
Has anyone in this day of solid-state thought of high voltage dc on an overhead system?
"Has anyone in this day of solid-state thought of high voltage dc on an overhead system?"
Belgium uses either 1500 or 3000 vdc. ( I forget which Belgium uses - whichever they do use, some parts of France uses the other ). Some parts of France use [I believe] 3000 vdc.. The Eurostar, when being designed had to be compatible with both as well as the mainstream 25 kvAC., as well as British third rail.
R-32.
Let's leave that statement alone for a minute and get to this:
What more practical decision than to make the power source the same type as the traction from square one - skipping the conversion step.
You need to stop thinking that, because it's wrong, and when you think that and say it aloud, you'll make other people think it too. What we really need is for this myth to die. Now, repeat after me:
AC or DC power transmission has nothing to do with AC or DC traction.
If you have AC power, you don't put it directly into an AC motor. An AC motor that operates at a single frequency (25, 50, or 60Hz) is useless for the purposes of a traction motor. Remember that AC motors are speed-controlled by varying the frequency. You still need an inverter to drive the motor, and you can do that just about equally well with an AC source as a DC source.
It IS a little bit easier to use DC motors with DC power if the supply voltage is correct, because you can connect the motors directly to the power source without the aid of any transformers or on-board rectification. However, even if you're married to DC traction (as the world was until AC speed control became practical,) the discussion doesn't end there. You still need to weigh the costs and benefits of many large lower-voltage DC substations against few large higher-voltage substations and what amounts to tiny substations on each train.
R-32.
By putting this prospect, Eurostar is just utterly amazing at converting different electical system.
"By putting this prospect, Eurostar is just utterly amazing at converting different electical system."
Amen to that brother!!
R-32.
The M-2's and such are cool, of course.....but only similar is right. The Eurostars' trainsets are much more sophisticated. You should pick up the book on Channel Tunnel trains. The power cars use GTO (gate turn-off) thyristors. Metro North, and such only deal with two voltages, and only one catenary system - Eurostar takes care of four voltages.
Besides, voltage is just one aspect of their sophistication. The cars are smaller than the TGV it takes after; owing to the tighter curves on the British lines. Two different platform heights: French platforms are lower. Plus, whereas the TGV has a carrier cable along the roofs of the cars - allowing only one pantograph to be needed for the propulsion of the whole 10 car trainset; the Channel Tunnel committee deemed this unsafe. They decided to prevent electrical transmission between cars. Therefore, on the Eurostars, there are power collector cars mid-train - pantographs and all. I don't know if they're actually motored, though. Then, of course, the Eurostars are not articulated.
R-32.
No. Only the two end power cars have collectors. One panto for AC, another for DC and third rail pickup shoes.
Then, of course, the Eurostars are not articulated.
All Eurostar half-train sets are articulated except for the power cars. The connection between the two half-train sets is of course, not articulated. The standard length Eurostar set look like this.
Power car--9 articulated trailers--9 articulated trailers--Power car
That sounds alarmingly easy to gap.
It's not a problem restricted to Eurostars. If they indeed have only one set of 3rd Rail shoes, incidents like this extremely silly one can unfortunately happen. (In the case mentioned, I don't know why they didn't get the jumper leads out.)
BTW, that incident sounds really silly... Another Thomas the Tank Engine kind of episode. e.g. James leaves without his driver, Thomas and his driver leaves Knapford without his coaches, etc...
I do believe that the first - adjacent to the power car - truck of the nine car set is powered. That is, the third truck in the train (as well as the last truck before the power car) is powered - just like the TGV.
R-32.
That is correct. The Eurostar set have six powered trucks per train. Two on each of the two power cars, plus the two adjacent trucks.
just like the TGV.
Only partially correct. The original Paris-Lyon TGV sets had the same arrangement of six powered trucks. All subsequent TGV designs have only had four powered trucks, under the power cars; more modern technology or experience made six trucks unnecessary.
Of course the Eurostar sets are significantly longer and heavier than any of the TGV sets, hence the need to revert to the six powered trucks approach.
Matt
Overhead allows higher speeds.
Matt
There are a coulpe of High Voltage DC transmission lines out here.
And there ARE NO CYCLES to keep in sync! That's why it is DC!
Elias
Matt
Do they need to be synchronized between plants or just within the plant? For instance, (since I am in Ohio) if Davis-Besse (FirstEnergy Nuke Plant) is supplying DC power (which I believe they are not) to Cleveland along with another DC plant, do the two plants need to be synchronized to each other (as in AC) or is it just that each generator in one plant needs to be synchronized with the others in the same plant? Or do modern transmission systems rectify the AC, in which case it should be clean?
TIA
Matt
With AC generation, it's downright critical. With DC plants, a bit of slop isn't so bad as long as you have speed and pretty close to the right "angle" ... as to "modern systems" you can BET it's a WHOLE lot cheaper to rectify commercial power than to fool around with big maintenance intensive rotating metal. Heh.
And you're MOST welcome - isn't all that often that subtalk turns to things I'm knowledgeable on nowadays - other than politics. :)
I *was* wondering a bit about that even as I posted.
Obviously a battery has no cycles, and that *is* the standard for DC, I guess, but on DC rectified from AC, I still got chatter on some motors or relays on my layout.
So the pulse is all + or - depending upon which wire you are holding and not + and - every 60 seconds all on the one wire, eh? Well that makes sense. But you loose the line losses (yes?) due to historisis(?) (or whatever) as compaired to AC.
We have two DC lions that cross ND easy to spot (two wires not three).
Elias
Let's say you've got the proverbial "Enron stack" ... like a TELCO central office ... batteries out the wazoo, and everybody's got a happy loop *PLUS* DT ("dialtone") ... HAPPY DAYS indeed! :)
EVERY battery (that's worth electrically recycling "on line") is BEST served by having DIODES between it and the load (prevents a phenomenon known as "reversing the cell") ... and a SEPARATE diode-controlled path from the "trickle-charger" ... when folks learn ELECTRONICS in training, it's the usual, tired old "Ohm's law" which applies ONLY to DC where if you have a battery that's 1.0 volts [hint: most "batteries provide between 1.20 volts (NI-CD) and 2.4 (Lead_acid) volts]) and a resistance of 1.0 OHMS, 1.0 AMPS will flow through the resistance by math. The DIODES allow current to flow from the battery to the load. At the same time, the REVERSE bias from the presence of the diodes prevents REVERSE current flow wherein one "weak" battery may suck current from the good batteries. IN the realm of DC, "rectifiers" ensure that current flows ONE way, but not BACK.
DC is the FIRST thing you learn in electronics, because it's as simple as Edison. And EDISON was *so* simple (and unworthy of the rhetoric, unlike TESLA, who WON the "AC power argument" as all might have noticed at their power outlets) Heh. But once you grasp the concepts of RESISTANCE, along comes IMPEDANCE, and you're suddenly in the world of "EDISON was a simplistic MORON who makes DUBYA look like a frigging GENIUS!" ... welcome to *NIKOLAI TESLA* and *AC!!!* Heh. ("You AMERICANS are so weak, like your coffee." - (Angry Beavers cartoon series) ...
Bottom line though - hook up multiple batteries with "isolation diodes" and all's happy ... as long as you don't have "reverse flows," all is well and good. Any "voltage bounces" you're experiencing is the result of "voltage droop" owing to too high a resistance for wiring in the "problem area" ... too much demand, not enough electrons. DC is EASY, AC is complex. Ask ANY engineer what they'd rather predict and design for, "AC or DC" and TELL me how many wanna phuck with Tesla. :)
On DC "Rowr! NICE kitty!" power lions, what ONLY matters is that DC power off rotating metal *HAS* commutators ... to put it in terms of AC that most folks know, let's assume we have a generator with "2 commutators" (worst POSSIBLE design) ... you get the SAME equivalent waveform of a simple rectifier withough filtering ... 60 Hz AC in, you get 120 Hz DC out. For the 60 cycle "round" all you get at the output is a sine wave that goes from 0 volts to 120 and then back. SECOND half cycle, you get ooo-gots. 70.7 volts output from 110 *averaged* ... in reality, you're getting 0 voltes ramping up to a peak of 110 for a "half of the "cycle." (that's what cycles, kilocycles, megacycles was all abnout in ancient electronics school) Make that a FULL-WAVE or "bridge rectifier," NOW you've got 141.4 volts of 120 HZ superimposed AC, but it ain't CLEAN like a battery. That's where "filtering" comes into play, but let's skip that esoteric. :)
Six of one, half dozen of the other in goverspeak. :)
OK ... so down to YOUR thingy there ... "Hysteresis" as you are asking is a PURELY Tesla matter ... as a result of the constant reversals of current in AC, there are stray currents in metal called "hysteresis" .... it's not so much about the electrons though as it is about the MAGNETIC properties of metals ... how when exposed to a FLUX, some metals will go from a +3 to a spontaneous -3 without hittin zero or passing zero as far as the electrical properties go. Hysteresis is sorta (best EASILY explained as a "reluctance" or a refusal to hit a "zero state" and thus pass THROUGH zero to a negative quickly) without a "fight" or giving up of energy.
NOW ... as to DC power lines, DC is "battery" ... it's QUITE "steady state" as basic electronics math provides (humankind is *SO* arrogant as to accept that math "rulez" - sometimes it's GOD and whoops! to the math) ... HOWEVER, in power distribution, EVERY DC generator has "segments" between, and separating the coils and the load. The MORE of these "commutaions" you have, the closer to DC output you get. But AS the coils swing PAST the magnets, there's "rises and falls" of "peak voltage" ... when DC generator "poles" are in sync, the trnasitions are relatively minor ... a SLIGHT AC voltage superimposed ont he more "flat" DC voltage ... the more generators DEVIATE from "perfect," the more "trash" is generated ...
ANYBODY HERE ever hear the subway train PA come on with a *WHINE* coming out of the speakers? Hello ... DIS-harmony in the generation. A *pure* DC souce doesn't have "AC whine" superimposed. Sounds like a telephone rather than ... "Twwwwweeeeeeeeeee ..." TA third rail is "dirty" owing to the power sources ... then again, the NOISE on the third rail is what "new tech cars" DETECT if they're going to do "regenerative braking" ... so that noise (and bumps and groans) is *so* expected that it was DESIGNED FOR!)
And therein lies the SLAP to Nikola Tesla. :)
Call it magic. Heh.
Speaking for the Council of Felids, I do not want to hear anything more about saggy cats!
Ice and Snow will weigh a wire down.
Cold will NOT cause the wire to sag, HEAT will do that.
Haven't you ever seen a cat in heat! Sparks will Fly!
In North Dakota the Wind and the Ice are the biggies for power lion problems. Outages fo a few seconds to a few days may ensue.
The Broadway Lion!
R-32.
Frequently locomotives will run with both pans up for icy wires.
The first pan knocks the ice down, and the second one collects the power.
Elias
R-32.
Well it isn't all that hard because Britain has been using it for years - since the early 20th century, that is. Those lines Southeast of London (I believe) are apparently known to go about 100 MPH (160 KPH). That's all not to mention our own Long Island Rail Road which is capable of 100 or 120 MPH - depending on car type (M-3 vs. M-1) - but doesn't put it into practice because, I hear, the current track can't take it. So no, that is not entirely true. Any 'precision' needed is just a necessary evil and that's that.
"Besides, you can't use 3d rail on opened surface ways because of safety requirements. For example, all the surface metro ways with 3d rail I saw in Moscow had high concrete fences to prevent extraneous people's trespassing."
Please try to remember, there is more than just Moscow. You can run third rail on the surface, as it is done anywhere there is third rail - anywhere on earth, that is. They do that in NY without a problem. Plus, unless London or England has changed recently, you can walk right up on those tracks and get zapped if you desire. Remember, those third rails are bare open - like NY many years ago.
A reminder that Europe has no mercy on stupidity.
Finally, there are plenty of catenary metros. Most of the newer metros use catenary. This includes Barcelona, Rome, Sao Paolo, Berlin, as well as other cities in Germany and Europe.
R-32.
Thanks, I will transfer your information to that guy who told about
100 km/h limit. It's interesting, what he will say?
>Plus, unless London or England has changed recently, you can walk >right up on those tracks and get zapped if you desire. Remember, >those third rails are bare open - like NY many years ago.
>A reminder that Europe has no mercy on stupidity.
Looks too weird in the times when any lousy pencil must have the
Certificate of Safety, and any kid having a conversation with unfamiliar man is considered as a victim of the crime. We have the saying: "Moscow does not believe in tears". Probably, Europe does believe it even less. :)
Not often, and not in many places. The speed limitations of third rail were one of the reasons why 25 kv AC overhead line electrification was adopted in the 1960s as the standard for main line electrification in the UK.
"Plus, unless London or England has changed recently, you can walk right up on those tracks and get zapped if you desire. Remember, those third rails are bare open - like NY many years ago."
In the UK, railway lines are fenced - anyone walking on the tracks is trespassing and knows that they are. However, the litigious blame culture is spreading to the UK, so although I don't know of any cases of trespassers suing the railways, it'll come, no doubt.
Of course, if someone wants to commit suicide on a railway, they don't need a third rail for it. Recently, a married couple in intractable financial difficulties jumped together in front of a train from a station platform on the East Coast Main Line, which is of course 25 kv AC overhead electrified. A train going at 100+ mph is going to kill you whatever traction it might be using.
The fact remains that 3rd Rail will allow 100mph easily. The reason that many Southern lines (mainly the SE, Chatham, and Brighton ones) are so slow is that the geometry is particularly inept. There also happen to be poorly laid out lines North of the River.
Take for example the horrible curves through Mitcham Junction. A comparably bad situation existed at Newton-le-Wilows on the LNWR. The LNWR built a line to by-pass the horrid curvy section with junctions to perpendicular lines. The LBSCR didn't. The LBSCR could well be criticised for that, but their electrification system is not to blame.
In fact, I'd take a bet on 3rd Rail working at 110mph. I can only think of two or three places in the UK where the speed limit's any higher, so realistically the issue's more about compatibility than speed.
This is where your fellow countryman in the successive thread has it right, and you - I'm afraid - have it wrong. Yes, often, and there are plenty of places here, and - apparently - in your country too. However a third rail is the last thing that hinders speed. Here, the Long Island Rail Road goes at least 80 - with the third rail. The track is the only thing limiting that speed, not the third rail. For that matter, the LIRR has cars capable of 120!
A train going at 100+ mph is going to kill you whatever traction it might be using.
Let us refocus upon the point of this discussion, shall we? Right; our friend 'Anton_75' remarked that third rail is the reason that much third rail metro trackage is not outside - which I quickly debunked. As such, my response pertaining to getting zapped on the tracks - if one so desires - was as a function of the electrified trackage; not the purely the railway itself. This was to say metros weren't afraid to bring tracks to the surface simply because there's juice and people might get zapped. Big deal, they can jump in front of a train; for that matter, I could walk out into the middle of an interstate (motorway) in front of a lorry - to the same end. That is not the point, it is about the electrification in this discussion.
In the UK, railway lines are fenced - anyone walking on the tracks is trespassing and knows that they are. However, the litigious blame culture is spreading to the UK, so although I don't know of any cases of trespassers suing the railways, it'll come, no doubt.
Well then.... they have changed recently.
R-32.
Well then.... they have changed recently.
The fences are there in the terms of the acts of Parliament which set up each individual line. There are of course still sections which have never been fenced.
Sure you COULD do maybe 150 with a 3rd rail powered train with substations at a .75 mile pitch and the thing cranked up to 1000vdc. But, by the same token, catenary powered trains have done 321mph with no modifications to the electric supply system other than some pantograph aerodynamic work, and do 186mph in regular service all over continental Europe and Japan.
No no.... it's the M-3's that are capable of 120... not the M-1's. The M-1's can only reach 100. The M-3's look the same, but are mechanically very different from the M-1's. The LIRR uses 650 vdc.
I respect the high speed of catenary; I think it's wonderful. I'm just saying that third rail is capable of speed.
I am very aware of the French TGV-A speed record of 500 KPH or 320 MPH. Do be aware that that train was 'souped up' in the order of larger diameter wheels and fewer cars ( and I think something else). The Japanese have gotten up to 320 MPH I've heard (that's what I've heard). Alot of those 'speed' records are trains souped up in some way. They usually make a run with no passengers, fewer cars, or more powerful motors etc. The only real speed record I've heard of happened recently on the new line from the Channel Tunnel to London with the Eurostar: 202 MPH!
R-32.
You mean used. It was upgraded to 750v around the same time as the M1 debuted.
that train was 'souped up' in the order of larger diameter wheels and fewer cars ( and I think something else).
IIRC, higher voltage and downhill tracks. BTW, the early tests and speed record (331kph) by the SNCF in the 50s were done on 1.5kvDC overhead lines upped to 1.9kv and that record wasn't beaten for a real long time.
Okay, thanks for the correction; although I think it's more like when the M-3's debuted. This is because I very surely seem to remember various signs and warnings etc. saying '650 volts D.C.' (that's pertaining to the trackage and traction), and that was in the '80's. The M-1's came in the '70's.
That's what makes the Eurostar's record more legitimate. That was a train full of passengers and no 'soup ups' no voltage hop-ups, no downhill trackage (necessarily), and yet it achieved 202 MPH.
R-32.
The R44s drew 650V DC from LIRR's third rail, a power supply system inherited from the Pennsylvania Railroad. The introduction of the Budd Company's high-performance M1 commuter MUs, beginning in 1968, mandated an upgrade of third-rail power to 750V DC in order to exploit the M1's capabilities. This work was carried out during 1971 and 1972, and was not quite finished when the R44s made their record-breaking runs.
Never underestimate the info on our beloved site.
:-)
It *was* one of the reasons given for the choice at the time. Whether it is true now - technology having moved one - I don't know. All *really* high-speed lines, such as the French and Japanese systems, do use overhead catenary. There were other reasons, of course, such as the need for fewer substations along long rural sections of line.
The 442s (5-WES) aren't alone. The 375s, 377s, the 424 prototype unit, the 444s (5-DES), 450s (4-DES), 458s (4-JOP), and 460s (8-GAT) all are 100mph capable (as indeed are the 373s, if they count). In addition, the 410/411/412s (4-BEP/4-CEP) 413s (4-CAP), 414s (2-HAP), 418s (2-SAP), 419s (MLV), 421s (4-CIG/4-COP), 422s (ex-420s, 4-BIG), 423s (4-VEP/4-VOP), 427s (4-VEG), 432s (ex-430s, 4-REPs), 438s (ex-491s, 4-TC), 480s (8-VAB), 488s, 489s (1-GLV), 492s (3-TC), and 499s (TLV) are 90mph capable.
I'm not aware of any section on the SE&C on which a train could get up to 100mph (it's better than the Brighton, but still an inferior constituent). The only line they could probably do that on is the CTRL, which is irrelevant as it's OHLE.
Doesn't Berlin use MNCRR style 3rd Rail?
R-32.
R-32.
As for those questioning whether or not the high blood pressure was hereditary in his case...I'm told his father had it, but the doctors are unclear as to whether or not that is the cause of his current condition (hypertension), or if there are other factors behind it.
However, if you post your well-wishes in this thread, it would cheer him up a little.
I've never met him in person yet but he is a funny guy to talk to. I'm hoping he will have a full recovery.
Chuck Greene
Today the doctors found a mass in dante's lower abdomen that will most likely require surgery. He has been asymptomatic all this time and has not had any indications that this was present in his system. Had he not come in for his pressure being high we would not have known anything was wrong.
They still are not completely sure if the mass itself is causing his pressure to be elevated..They may not know until after surgery is done. They are working to stabilize it but at this point it is still very high.
For the record I will be printing out the well wishes that dante has been getting from the board and taking them to him for him to read. I thank everyone here in advance for their encouraging words and support.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Get well and best wishes.
Bob
Chuck Greene
I hope you get well soon. Sorry to hear you're not well now.
I hope the mass that was found is not cancerous.
Koi
Since you're going to be bringing this along to our buddy, Unca Selkirk's praying for ya and you STILL owe me some face time on an arnine, buddy! :)
Regards,
Jimmy
Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
Jeremy aka JPC
I can't even begin to say how much I appreciate all the prayers and well-wishes from the people here (also I recall from the posts that my mother printed out that there was another thread somewhere, but I couldn't find it...) as well as the visits from SciGuy, Flatbush, mr brian and Newkirk Plaza David. I sure miss this place, and I also miss the subway...I haven't seen the subway in over a month, except in some really wierd dreams including one where CI and Jamaica switched equipment, and another where there was a GO that the J/M were somehow replacing the A/C/F between Brooklyn & Manhattan.
I can't believe all the stuff I missed...the four BU MOD trips, the replacing of the school cars at CI & PS 248 with the R110Bs, the shutdown of Times Square, and a whole bunch of DUHs from FOX and the NY Post.
I don't know how much longer they'll let me stay on this computer (remember, I'm still in the ICU), but hopefully by this time tomorrow (or Friday) I'll be back to posting regularly again.
Again, thanks for your thoughts and prayers.
Hobbyists or Terrorists? Railfans Find it Hard to Pursue Passion in Post-September 11 World
Commuter Weekly, June 29, 2004
Some people like tinkering with old cars. Others love collecting stamps and coins or building model airplanes. Bird watchers, on the other hand, love watching and “collecting” bird species. Then, there are railfans-also known as train spotters, foamers (as in, “foaming at the mouth” when they see a train) and railbuffs. No matter what you call them, there are an estimated 175,000 railfans in the U.S., almost all of whom are men, and they all share one common passion: trains. Clubs, Web sites and even vacation excursions all serve to feed their passion for trains.
According to Rob Buckman, a railfan and owner of 3RI, a Web site dedicated to railroad images, the casual observer might not notice that trains are all that different. You’ve seen one train … you've seen them all, right? But, stresses Buckman, “Rarely will two trains be exactly alike. The engines pulling that train blocking the crossing and made you late for work? They might have been GP38-2s, an engine that is quickly fading from the scene like the steam engines of years gone by. Who cares? It is the same type of person who cares and knows about the old muscle cars, like an Olds Cutlass 442 or Barracuda.”
For many years, railfans were largely left alone, allowed to document their train sightings with cameras (most railfans are photographers, documenting trains through their lenses), and sometimes documenting engine paint schemes, engine numbers, number of cars, and train frequency in well-worn notebooks. But then came September 11, and, much later, train bombings in Madrid, Spain. Suddenly, an innocent pastime became viewed as maybe something a bit more sinister. Could that man with a camera really be a terrorist plotting out the best way to derail or bomb a train, or is he merely a railfan pursuing a hobby?
“Anyone seen taking photographs is going to be questioned,” said Richard Maloney, a spokesman for SEPTA, Philadelphia’s public transit authority, in a recent Time magazine about railfans. “The wide-open spaces and the freedom we have enjoyed to meander almost anywhere is gone.”
It’s a sentiment shared by John Almeida, profiled in the Time magazine article, who chases train every day during lunch hour. He sets up four video cameras on tripods beside the tracks and waits, listening to his scanner. Over the past 15 years, he has shot hundreds of hours of video and tens of thousands of pictures. And since September 11, he has been mistaken for a terrorist about once a month and has been followed by an Amtrak helicopter, questioned by police and rail workers and described to a 911 dispatch as a "suspicious Middle Eastern male." (Although Almeida is of Irish Catholic descent.)
But regardless of how you feel about the situation-whether you think that railfans should be left to pursue their hobby or whether you think that railfans should pursue a different hobby in this post-September 11 environment, one thing is clear: no one should ever, ever walk on railroad tracks or enter private rail property without permission. It’s illegal and dangerous, with the consequences sometimes fatal. It will also be viewed by law enforcement as a security risk.
Operation Lifesaver, an organization dedicated to educating the public about railroads and ensuring the public’s safety, began a public outreach program in 1972, in fact, that has helped reduce the number of injuries and fatalities on the tracks by 75 percent. And since it became clear that railfans’ desires were often at odds with the desires of the Department of Homeland Security, Operation Lifesaver reached out to railfans with the Railfan Tips and Security Advisory, developed in cooperation with the U.S. Transportation Security Administration (TSA).
“Nearly 1,000 people die each year because they do not understand railroads,” Operation Lifesaver President Gerri Hall explains. “They underestimate the power of trains and the dangers around the rails. In particular, children learn from the example of their siblings and older friends, based on what they see, not what they hear.”
Operation Lifesaver’s complete Railfan Tips and Security Advisory is available online, but key points of Operation Lifesaver’s Safety Message which apply to everyone-include:
Do not trespass on railroad property or rights-of-way. It is illegal, it can be deadly, and you also may appear to be a serious security risk. Remember, railroad property may extend 200 feet on either side of the tracks.
Do not enter private rail property without permission.
Never walk out on a railroad bridge or trestle.
Stay out of railroad tunnels.
Do not climb on railroad property such as signal bridges, cabinets or other structures.
Never climb on or crawl under railroad cars or equipment.
Obey all highway-rail grade crossing signs and signals.
Of course, both rail enthusiasts and the public can be a big part of the safety/security solution by always cooperating with law enforcement and, any time you see suspicious activities near the tracks, reporting them to local authorities.
By following these guidelines, pedestrians and rail riders can enjoy train travel and help maintain the security of our nation’s transportation system.
In other words - don't take pictures.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Railfan photography isn't covered by the freedom of speech because that mainly protects people's right to criticize the government, as well as talk about stuff. The freedom of press thing is possibly applicable to railfanning, but we aren't really reporting anything. The president is breaking the freedom of press by not allowing certain aspects of the war to be photographed, and also that incident with Anton Scalia a few weeks ago.
So therefore, unfortunately, as much as we dislike it, government can ban railfan photography, for it would be constitutional to do so. Although one can argue that railfanning is their religion, or some silly thing like that, and make a railfanning religion that the government would try to ban, but can't, since that would truly be unconstitutional.
BTW, all of this sucks and I'd like to press the rewind button to the year 2000, and get Gore to do more campaigning in his home state, then rewind to 1998, when the CIA launched cruise missiles at al-Qaeda camps, and change the coordinates so that they strike al-Qaeda HQ, then this whole mess would be avoided...
No it wouldn't. Al-Qaeda is effectively a myth anyway. I'm not saying that there aren't terrorists who call themselves members of Al-Qaeda, but it's not really a hierarchical organization that would collapse with the death of its leader. These people hate America Bin Laden or not.
As a railfan I think a photo ban would be wrong-minded. I enjoy videotaping and photographing my cab rides. On the other hand, the TA's mission statement does refer to SAFE transportation and it's for the agency to determine what is needed to keep the majority of riders (who are not railfans) safe. If they determine that banning photography under narrow circumstances is prudent then it's their judgement.
Photography is not the only aspect to railfanning. Obviously some people consider Skylarking or surfing to be part of railfanning. Other railfans think that exploring tunnels, changing side signs, or tagging or even stealing a train is what railfanning is all about. Common sense dictates that if you can ban tagging or tunnel exploration as unacceptable forms of railfanning, why can't photography be equally subjectively banned. Clearly it can be but equally clearly it hasn't been to this point. If and when it is, we'll still have other ways to enjoy our hobby. Even if it is 'banned', most of us will still be able to enjoy it simply by getting a permit. Try getting a permit to photograph in Rikers Island.
Obviously though, there are some issues that I haven't seen discussed as far as this goes that might be of interest to those planning to address this issue. Obviously, commercial photography "customers" would be able to obtain a permit and credentials. I don't however see any particular interest in granting "hobbyist" permits from what I've read. But even IF the agency will be granting those, there's something folks are missing here ...
State agencies are permitted (nay, ENCOURAGED) to charge a FEE for any paperwork of any kind if paperwork is to be done, even more so if it results in some form of certificate. One of the questions I don't see being raised is what kind of *FEE* will be charged for this transaction, amounting to a "railfan tax" ... will it prohibit inner city kids from pursuing one of the less expensive "hobbies?"
I agree with you that a ban/permit requirement would almost certainly be upheld in the courts.
I would add that as a New Yorker who doesn't take pictures in the subway I think the ban would be wrong-minded. There is no conceivable way that a ban (or permit requirement) would improve security. It would give NYC even more of a bad name than it already has as a bureaucratic place that makes money by giving summonses to innocent tourists.
It would also make MTA management look very foolish, which is also bad for New York. Lots of people will realize that the ban is a way to look like you're doing something about terrorism without actually providing any substance.
Actually doing something to make the subways safe from terrorism without making them unusuable is an incredibly difficult, unglamorous, and unnoticed task. The MTA seems to be propsing an easy route to look effective without necessarily being effective.
Do you know something the rest of us don’t? I’ve seen no indications that permits will actually be available to the general public.
It also introduces an administrative burden on the TA which does not enhance the security of the subways - and will create a budget hole that DHS will not necessarily fill with federal dollars.
Having said that, I should add that there is merit in your previous post. If the TA is sensible, it will minimize the inconvenience to the rail buffs.
Incidentally, rail buffs (not the ones in the minority who trash trains, jump turnstiles or threaten public safety) are good for the TA. They ride frequently, buy MetroCards, encourage other people to ride and even advocate for the TA when hearings come up. The TA should indulge them where possible because they are allies of the agency.
How about the experience of the last two years, when one or more NYCT spokespeople have said that the MTA does require permits for photography but isn't issuing any. Surely that is a suggestion (though by no means a guarantee) of policy to come.
Are you truly 100% confident that the MTA WILL issue permits if the proposal goes through?
“Anyone seen taking photographs is going to be questioned,” said Richard Maloney, a spokesman for SEPTA, Philadelphia’s public transit authority, in a recent Time magazine about railfans. “The wide-open spaces and the freedom we have enjoyed to meander almost anywhere is gone.”
It’s a sentiment shared by John Almeida, profiled in the Time magazine article, who chases train every day during lunch hour.
I certainly DO NOT share those sentiments! No one has taken away our freedoms yet, but they ARE trying very hard. The following just happened yesterday.....
CSX C770 derailed at least a couple of cars while shoving back into the Bucks County Ind Park across from Woodbourne Yard on the Trenton Line. SEPTA was running trains on Track 2 between Wood and Nesh while CSX and SEPTA personnel dealt with the cars. Half of the train was pulled south of the switch and sent back to Woodbourne while about 5-6 cars and one engine were on the BCIP trackage.
Went to Fairless Jct, gave my card to some employees there and asked to take a few pics at a distance, after which an employee who I presume was the foreman yelled "OUT OF HERE!", which I did. Went to the public overpass and got pictures of the cars and dirty looks from the crew on the ground. Then went around to the JC Penney warehouse, gave them my card and asked to take some pictures from inside their gated parking lot and a guy in the office said OK. Got my pics, then found out that guy was not THE GUY. When he approached me (actually honked at me from his car), THE GUY said he was told that CSX had just chased me away from the scene! I explained that I had asked and received permission from someone at the office (how the hell am I supposed to know who in the office is supposed to give out the permission slips), and I left. Then went to the parking lot of the ind park to get some more shots when another guy from CSX approached me in my car and said "Didn't we tell you to get out of here!"
That was it, I almost lost it. I told the guy I wanted his card. He
asked why, and I said I wanted to know how he could tell me to get out of a parking lot THAT IS NOT CSX PROPERTY. He backed off, and at that point I let him have it, logically speaking. I explained everything from why the people in BCIP did not know about the derailment in their back yard (because CSX did not tell anyone), why he and everyone else from CSX think they can do and say anything they want anywhere they want, why he was concerned with me when I was nowhere near the derailment (he blurted something about security issues and the ubiquitous "9/11" - what the hell that has to do with CSX putting cars on the ground is unfathomable), why there would be "privacy issues" (his words) regarding me taking pictures of the scene that is in public view and concerns the well-being of us all. I also told him about the article in this week's Time Magazine about Homeland Security recruiting truckers to keep an eye on things "suspicious"
http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1101040705-658321,00.html
and asked why not enlist us railfans (who on the whole seem much more
enlightened than the gear jockeys in the article). I wish I had recorded the tidal wave of frustration that I unleashed on this guy about the stupidity and arrogance running rampant in our society. In the end, I left and hopefully at least one CSX employee had something to thing about.
I have had it with morons. I am mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore.
No, it hasn't. You're taking it for no logical reason, Mr. Maloney.
-why are you stopping people taking pictures? is it against the law?
- when your own cops break your own regulations by smoking on MFL station platforms (next time I see it, I'll take a pic of 'em)
- when your own cops cant enforce basic Septa regulations like smoking, littering, 'cracking forties' on the subway.
As an aside, remember just after Sept 11th, we weren't going to change our habits, etc, when that would be 'giving in' to the terrorists? Well, it looks like the terrorists are winning, with a little help from the dept of homelnd securitie, plus our local friendly transit agencies.
Just hold your hand out and demand to see their ID card. Reject it if it is not a photo ID card, and explain to them that they have no RIGHT WHATSOEVER to even suggest that you suspend your freedoms as an American.
Write down his name and information, and then ask him the name of his supervisor, and what department that he works in.
Inform him that you have rights to take pictures, that the Taliban and AlKida did NOT win the war, and that you will report him to his superiors and to the authorities for infringing on your rights.
Now we did have a rail wreck out here in North Dakota, happend less than one mile from my front door, but would you believe nobody in town heard anything. Apparently hoppers full of coal do not make much noise. I guess the coal attenuates the sounds.
Pictures were no problem, even from RR property. I guess with a wreck in town they must have figured that there was no way to hide it anyway.
Elias
ask the FEDS why thy started this stupid crap...or rather ask your greedy ass president and is father about it...
it a damn shame how the powers that be have be allowed to play on the public they way they have been doing lately
all in the name of ''HOMELAND SECURITY''....
makes me ill,I tell you....
Can't wait untill our Creator returns,to make them suffer for this....
You'd think there was a guy there trying to take pictures of the trains...
www.forgotten-ny.com
?
www.forgotten-ny.com
it's the first one
--Mark
Right now you can ride seven different kinds of MU's on Metro-North spanning 40 years of service. I don't think that any other "mainline"
railroad in the country has as many types in service.
On the Harlem and Hudson Lines we have the Pullman-Standard ACMU's from 1962 and 1965. The Budd built M-1A's from 1981-83. The Budd built M-3A's from 1982-84 and the brand new M-7A.
On the New Haven Line we have the M-2's built by General Electric and Canadian Vickers from 1973 to 1976. Remember when they were call "Cosmopolitans." There are the M-4's built by Tokyu Car and the M-6's bulit by Morrison-Knudsen.
Ten of the M-2's are still configurged as "Cafe" cars and are refered to as M-2C's. The may be the last electric mu bar cars left in the country.
Also if your lucky enough to ride out of Grand Central on tracks 1 or 2 (the two center ones) you will pass through the "Mount Prospect Tunnel" just before you reach the portal at 97 Street. This is one of only three remaining pre-Civil War built railway tunnels in New York City and the only one of the three that still has railway service.
SO come down to GCT and by your ticket before you board the train.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
The best time to ride a rail line is when new cars are coming in and the old cars are phasing out. Not only does it provide variety but it gives one an opportunity to see how the equiptment has evolved over the years.
Right now you can ride seven different kinds of MU's on Metro-North spanning 40 years of service. I don't think that any other "mainline"
railroad in the country has as many types in service.
On the Harlem and Hudson Lines we have the Pullman-Standard ACMU's from 1962 and 1965. The Budd built M-1A's from 1971-73. The Budd built M-3A's from 1982-84 and the brand new M-7A.
On the New Haven Line we have the M-2's built by General Electric and Canadian Vickers from 1973 to 1976. Remember when they were call "Cosmopolitans." There are the M-4's built by Tokyu Car and the M-6's bulit by Morrison-Knudsen.
Ten of the M-2's are still configurged as "Cafe" cars and are refered to as M-2C's. The may be the last electric mu bar cars left in the country.
Also if your lucky enough to ride out of Grand Central on tracks 1 or 2 (the two center ones) you will pass through the "Mount Prospect Tunnel" just before you reach the portal at 97 Street. This is one of only three remaining pre-Civil War built railway tunnels in New York City and the only one of the three that still has railway service.
SO come down to GCT and by your ticket before you board the train.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
wayne
Kidding aside, I wonder who was the dolt who mixed up the names.
Iwas returning from NE queens via #7 this night at approx 2:10 am and a washing crew was servicing an area mid platform. It seemed odd that no other area of the station was wet and that their attention was centered in one spot. Now I know why.
My business took me on a total of 6 trains this evening, every one of them had a selection of freaks, creeps and stoners. The worst I can recall since the late '80s.
I hope this is not indicative of the summer to come.
When the train short stopped at Willets Pt because of the incident at Main St, one of the freaks was a guy dressed in womens clothing, lip stick, hair and all.
Watch what you say, you remember what happened to John Rocker the last time he talked about freaks on the 7...
Watch what you say, you remember what happened to John Rocker the last time he talked about freaks on the 7...
Between Freak and F.., F.. would get you hurt if you told it to them, rather then the other one. :/
I said F.., NOT .F.
That you should understand.
Your spelling was going F.., F..
I SAID "F..", then ".A.", so the third would be "..G"
Now does your little brain understand? I didnt think you were dumb, but now I think you definitly are.
And if you still dont get it, the dots represent the unmeantiond letters, hence why F.., .A., ..G, NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
Since we're spelling the same word, lets call it even.
Your still spelling out the same word, I only used the short word. Go back to elementary school and learn how to spell. Because right now, you surely dont understand anything.
But since we're talking about the same word
what are you griping about?
Instead of saying it as one word, I put it as 3 seperate ones.
Your saying I'm wrong in the way I'm saying it, yet its the same thing you said. This aint the only time you didnt understand anything. -_-
Your one big idiot. How the F am I trying to confuse you if I keep telling you what the F I been telling you for the past god damn posts. Just because your one dumb idiot, doesnt mean you can then blame me for trying to un-confuse you. Sheesh.
"I ain't answering no more."
Took you long enough to realize you were wrong.
"I ain't wasting my 30 posting quota repeating myself."
Actually its the opposite, I had to repeat myself for YOU TO UNDERSTAND. I already knew what you were saying.
-_-
Da Hui
When the train short stopped at Willets Pt because of the incident at Main St, one of the freaks that was on the train was a guy dressed in womens clothing, lip stick, hair and all.
It was 'abandoned,' so to speak. I believe it was done to construct new booths at stations nearer the tunnels.
I hope this is not indicative of the summer to come.
It isn't. The media always loves to dramatize these stories and makes it look like the system is going down. Regardless of these incidents, crime in the subway is still at record lows.
Howard Stern as kingmaker in the presidential race. Yeah, I know, don't read this on a full stomach.
Here's my sad story for all who care to listen:
I was visiting a friend on the Upper East Side, and left about 10:45 and got on the (6) at 86th and Lex, with my eventual destination to my car, parked at Queens Boulevard and 40th St. I got off the (6) at 59th Street/Lex and went downstairs to wait for the N/W. A R came, then a N came. A combination of listening to the beautiful sounds coming from the pipa and keyboard musicians on the platform, along with the barely audible PA system saying that the next stop was 39th Street distracted me from realizing that I should have gone back upstairs to take the (6) down to 42nd/GCT.
As the N train emerged from the tunnel, I noticed I had a voice mail, which I later listened to. It was my dad informing of the closure of Queensboro Plaza. As we passed QBPZ, I took out my Queens bus map to try to find an alternative route to my car. If I got off at Broadway in Astoria, I saw that I could take the Q104 bus to 48th St and Queens Blvd. I would have to walk about 8 blocks, but as long as I would be on the other side of Sunnyside Yard, I would be happy.
Waiting for about 5 minutes, a young guy came up and asked me about the bus and the QBPZ closure. I was going to wait a while longer until the bus came, but he was getting impatient, and started to ask the passing car services how much it would be to 40th and Queens Blvd. I finally took out the bus map again and looked to the back for the individual lines schedule. Luckily I did this or I would have been waiting for the Q104 for a very very very long time. The Q104 had ceased to run at 11:00 pm, and it was already 11:30. So we ended up sharing a car service to 40th/Queens Blvd. I didn't really want to spend the $4 (each), but I didn't really see a better (and quicker) choice. So finally we arrive at 40th/Queens Blvd and get into my car and head home towards Flushing. I thought my worries were over, but I was soon to be let down again.
I headed up Queens Boulevard, and on to Roosevelt Boulevard to catch the BQE to head into the Grand Central Parkway. (I've come to avoid the entrance to the BQE right off of Queens Blvd as it is even more pothole ridden than off of Roosevelt!) As I'm coming around the curve and through the tunnel at the end of the BQE to merge into the Grand Central coming from the Triboro Bridge I think I'm home free! Obviously not as I see a wall of red rear lights on the Parkway. The DOT must have read my mind after mentioned to my dad about the "speed bumps" on the eastbound GCP right before the signs for the 94th Street exit. They were doing repair work which caused 5 lanes of traffice to merge into 1 *(#@&(*#@&(!@ lane! So 15 minutes later I sped off once I got past the merge.
It seems like the DOT was out in full force last night. Slightly further down the GCP the right two lanes were blocked off by the gas station, but it didn't cause any tie ups, as the road was clear after the bottleneck earlier. Finally, I got off the GCP on to the "Astoria Parkway" and then the terrible entrance/merge onto the Van Wyck/Whitestone Expressway over the Flushing River. As I got off of Linden Place, over on the service road, more DOT work going on. I finally got home at 12:30 after quite an adventure of a night! It could be worse, but it was still pretty bad.
Totally off-topic - there's a great Turkish restaurant, Hemsin, right near that corner - make sure to get the Lahmacun and lots of extra bread. And the ayran drink (salty of course). Mmmm, Turkish...
I'm glad I have more of an opportunity to eat Turkish food as I am 1/4 Turkish (Turkish-Jewish) from Izmir (Smyrna), and I guess another 1/4 Turkish if you count my ancestors from Thessalonika, Greece under the rule of the Ottoman Empire.
You can get the ayran sweet or salty - I prefer the salty, but the sweet's ok too. It's made from yogurt, which I guess to some people tastes bitter, so maybe we're just different that way.
And the bread is excellent - too bad I can't get them to deliver to my place on the UWS :(
15 minutes? Lucky.
Took me almost an hour and 1/3 tank of gas from the BQE to that merge Friday night. Totally retarded the way they suddenly blocked off the GCP instead of gradually reducing lanes.
Also what made it worse was that some idiot had an accident. I wonder how.
Bull poof? Isn't that what puts all the methane into the atmosphere?
Or maybe he meant a bull PROOF vest.
If one person is killed per week because the Police are too busy hassling photographers with the ban (admittedly a thin link, but bear with me)...
And 10 years from now the shootings go on unabated, the photoban is still in place, and we're all now thoroughly cowed...
And then South Carolina Christian Fundamentalist seperatists, with no prior knowledge of the NYCTA system (that is no pictures, no lurking on this site, nothing more than THE MAP and a proximity-read Metrocard in their pockets and a briefcase full of Semtex in their hand), explode several bombs on a crowded 2 train at Times Square, killing 500...
Then the photoban was really worth it wasn't it? :\
What I suggest is a camera system like the last great mayor of tampa installed in Ybor City. It has face recognition software and scans EVERYbody to a criminal database and looks for matches. The ACLU had it disabled here, but I figure with the rampant crime and higher lacking of personal freedoms up there, this thing should be a blast/success. I'm all for it.
1. Have the trolley start in Manhasset Isle, run up Shore Rd, Main St, 101, 25A, and Old Northern BLVD to the clock tower. Then, convert the N23 to all Harbor Rd runs. This would atleast give the section between Mill Pond and the PW LIRR station to trolley only service.
2. Convert entire N23 to trolley(definately not happening).
All in all, as great of an idea this is, I'm very skeptical about whether or not this will even be seriously considered.
When these business groups say "trolley" they mean the oversized open air vans whose bodies are built to look like trolleys. I consider them vans or trucks, not even buses or real trolleys, like streetcars and PCC's.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I was on a Philadelphia PCC fantrip a while ago and we had a photo stop on a bridge. After we reboarded, one of those retarded looking rubber tire trolleys was approaching us. All aboard erupted in boos and catcalls because we were riding the real thing.
I wonder if any of Bob Diamonds surplus PCCs may be considered or are we talking about a Gomaco replica ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Personally, I really like what they did to the old Bay st. station.
Off course what would a day be without a few incidents........Our ALP44 missed a cement truck stopped a tad to close to the tracks and of course a pax running under the gates to catch the NY local.
This is a four page fold-out brochure for the museum in Brooklyn, but it has a nose shot of PRR GG-1 #4907 as the front cover.
Why would the MTA use a picture of a GG-1 on a brochure for the transit museum?
I don't know why it was on the cover, but it's always good to see a G on the front of something. I wonder if there's any chance they might get a G for the Transit Museum? There might be a problem placing it in there, although they could cut it up and reassemble it, as they did after it plowed in Washington's Union Terminal.
: )
Mark
Mark
While some European cultures may still regard smoking as a sign of sophistication (though that's probably changing), in the United States it's increasingly seen as a sign of moral weakness.
Fortunately, there are some good signs. Want a Toyota Prius? Get in line and start saving. The waiting list is years long, and the dealer markup is pushing $5000.
Mark
A group of Atlantic City boosters organized a sesquicentennial train, using NJTransit Philadelphia to Atlantic City train #4611. Michael Doyle played the part of Dr Jonathan Pitney, "the father of Atlantic City", and organized the celebration. He got scant cooperation from NJT - two extra cars on train 4611 and NJT's South Jersey Superintendant (a good guy, formerly working public relations with SNJLRTS River Line) on board. NJT put out a press release Wednesday with Warrington taking credit for the celebration.
Dr Pitney, affable accordion player "Fingers" Cannoli, and a surfer met passengers in the main waiting room at 30th Street Station. The celebration started on the platform shortly before train time. Channel 6 was on the platform and the Inquirer was on the train.
I asked the conductor not to let the train leave Lindenwold without me while I jumped off to grab a quick photo. He obliged.
Cape May Seashore Lines general manager Tony Macrie boarded the train in Hammonton (where he's lived all his life), and "Fingers" Cannoli played "On the Way to Cape May" in honor of Tony.
Egg Harbor City presented the anniversary train with a proclamation when we stopped there.
The mayor of Absecon lead the celebration on the NJT platform.
After the train arrived in Atlantic City, the celebration continued inside the NJT terminal, with King Neptune giving out 150th anniversary T shirts to media and a few lucky railfans.
After the shindig ended, some of us walked the boardwalk and ate lunch at the Baltimore Grill, then a couple of us rode the celebratory trainset back to Lindenwold, where I got a photo of the engine and the five-car train before I took PATCO to Collingswood and walked home.
It’s a real pity George Warrington doesn’t have any sense of style. If he knew what was any good for him personally, and NJT in general, he would have been there, dressed up for the occasion, and getting the NJT press office publicizing the event for all its worth. Even get the Governor in on the act. I don’t know whether NJT could get hold of an appropriately old car for the occasion to tow behind a regular train, but this would be the time.
Anyway, the people on board the train had fun, even if the young lad in this photo looked a bit bemused!
Transit content: Collingswood, Westmont, and Haddonfield all have PATCO stations.
And, no problems, nobody said "You can't take pictures" and a good time was had by all.
Kudos to NJT for allowing the celebration to occur. There's been so much bad press about NJT, it's a good thing to allow events like this.
I've always found the AC line ads quite amusing as you have here, "Chauffer Driven." I also remember on the bridge over Rt 30? 70? "The Ultimate Off-Road Vehicle."
Rt 70
Koi
By CANDACE SMITH
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) - Metrorail stations can handle eight car trains, and there is less work involved than originally thought to get them into service, Metro officials are expected to tell board members Thursday.
The subway system was designed 28 years ago to accommodate the longer trains, and they ran briefly in the mid-1970s. But back then Metro officials said they had more time between trains to correct things if a train overshot the station.
"If you had some hiccups at that time, or even eight years ago or 10 years ago, you had some time to recover. Today, you don't have time for recovery," said P. Takis Salpeas, Metro's head of construction.
Eight car trains are 600 feet long - exactly the same length as Metro station platforms. It wasn't until a recent study that officials knew they could get the longer trains to stop within the platforms on a regular basis.
Last July, Metro's board approved a $3 million pilot project to test the stopping ability of eight car trains. Rail car manufacturer Alstom found Metro does not need to install more equipment on the tracks to get the trains to stop at the platform. Salpeas said the extra savings would be used to install new stopping software in at least 16 rail cars before next June.
Alstom also determined its software could overshoot or undershoot platforms by about 3.5 feet - a half foot more than Metro wanted. Officials said that's still acceptable, but if the trains overshoot a platform by 6.5 feet or more the doors won't open automatically. They figure that could happen at one station stop every three days, and if it does passengers in the first car will have to wait to get off at the next station during rush hour service.
"If you start backing up, (in) 10 minutes you got four trains in there that are starting to bunch," said Lemuel Proctor, Metro's outgoing head of rail operations.
All but 10 percent of the 950-rail car fleet will get the software upgrades. The 100 older model rail cars will have to wait until a scheduled 2012 overhaul.
There is no funding yet to upgrade the entire fleet. Officials have said they need $625 million for 120 rail cars, rail yard expansions and power upgrades to run longer trains. Metro's board agreed in April to spend $22 million in engineering upgrades for power and rail yard capacity, but it has to decide in October whether to buy 50 rail cars. If not, Metro officials have predicted a two year delay in starting eight car trains, which would mean even more overcrowded conditions.
Metro officials said if they get the requested funding, longer trains will be in service by the end of 2006, with one running every five trains during rush hours. They hope to have eight car trains in about half of the stations by 2008.
Metro officials are studying where to put the longer trains. The Orange and Green lines are the most congested now, according to Metro. Board members would have to make a decision on which lines would get the cars by June 2006 because of train operators' scheduling, Proctor said.
Incredible.
Not that this might happen, but that it’s considered acceptable.
Priceless!
A well trained operator will have the feel of how at train should stop under automatic control. Knowing this profile he/she can stop the train before it over shoot the platform. I have been on trains where the operator hit the plunger (Emergence Stop Button) to keep the train from over running the station.
John
Aren't these trains CBTC control (or so I thought)? This gives new meaning to the term WTFMATA! As far as the driver using foul language, I think he saw the writing on the wall.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
David
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
There is in fact a manual override. There is a stop button on the console. I addressed this in post 733220
John
No need for the extra 10’ With all of the hardware maintained both train board and way side to proper specification the berthing of the train should not be a problem.
Most of you may be to young to remember when 8 car trains were common practice, WMATA put green markers on the platforms and on the walls beyond the platforms. These markers let the operator know that all of the door were on the platform even if the train over shot or under shot the platform but not so far that the first or last door was beyond the end of the platform. Some of these green markers still exist.
The track circuit used to determine that the train is berth at the platform is 600’ long. Both ends of the train must be within this track circuit so way side train control can receive a train berth signal from both ends of the train. If the train to wayside antenna on the first or last car is beyond the boundary of the track circuit wayside control will only receive a train berth signal from one only end of the train and will not transmit a door open command to the train.
There is another solution that I don’t know if anybody thought of, mind you I don’t even know if it will work without compromising safety. Lengthen the platform track circuit by 10’ to 12’.
John
Slightly related note: Market-Fankford Line trains tend to FREQUENTLY overshoot the platform (If you're ever up here on one (or a BSS train) and hear the "triple horn" as the train slows down in the station or after it stops, that signal indicates the train needs to back up to get the doors all within the space of the platform length, as one has overshot the station), but they simply back up a bit to get the door where it needs to be. And the MFL has about equal frequencies to WMATA.
This would compromising one of the most important safety protocols designed in to the train control system. Disabling the train birthed acknowledged command would allow all of the door to be opened anywhere along the main line when the train is stopped. One less layer of the protections of safety. Also disabling the train birthed acknowledged command would eliminate the capability of opening the doors automatically when the train is properly birthed at a platform.
During the first few months of operation some of these protection were disabled just to keep the bug redden trains running. I can vividly recall as if it happened yesterday being on one of the 6 car trains that was run on opening day 03 27 1976 with a full load stopping at Farragut North. After opening the doors on the left on the Shady Grove bound side of the platform for some reason the doors opened on the right side. I was standing next to the right side doors when it happened. I stuck my head out the door an looked both ways. Luckily no one took that long step out of the train on to the grating on the florescent light trough.
John
A lot of people don’t understand that if the crowd is at one location on a given platform they will end up on a crowded car of a train that might have empty seats in other cars. Some use the system enough to know better and some a very small minority even know to board the car of the train that is closest to platform exit escalator / stair at the station they are going to.
John
Perhaps the T/O should be stationed at the middle of the train, so that he can see the rear of the train just as well as he can see the front. Do we really need the T/O to be up front on an OPTO train? I'd think cameras and other systems would do just fine in a modern railroad without the prejudices and practices of older, more established systems, such as NYC and Philly.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
In the newest ones, there is a LED sign at each end inside. I've always seen it say merely "GREEN" or "RED". Recently I was on a Green Line to Greenbelt (it should be my daughter's nickname since she's at UMD), and the sign actually said different things. They finally programmed at least one train to do what Philadelphia's trains have been doing for 4 years now.
It said, for example:
(While doors are open) GREEN
(As it's moving along) COLUMBIA HTS
(Just when you look up in the tunnel to see what's the next station)
<<<
so you know the doors open on the left.
Then as soon as the doors open, it switches back to: GREEN
It would seem to me that they could alternate the station name and those nearly invisible arrows, so you know what you are looking at. It is not clear that the arrows mean the doors are opening on the left, but when I got off at Greenbelt, and after the train shifted to the other side of the platform before entering the terminal, there were >>> arrows showing. Now if only it could say LAST STOP or EVERYONE EXIT, so people would know it's the end of the line...
But at least they didn't pay all that money just to have it say GREEN (it just seems that way).
Go Terps!! I enjoyed my time at UMD. : )
Ben F. Schumin :-)
RUmor: 7 express will run untill 10:45, but first they have to see what is going to happen with the current fleet in the upcoming months.
YTF is this necessary?
Pelham Exp goes to bed just after 7...
Incredible.
Not that this might happen, but that it’s considered acceptable.
Priceless!
A well trained operator will have the feel of how at train should stop under automatic control. Knowing this profile he/she can stop the train before it over shoot the platform. I have been on trains where the operator hit the plunger (Emergence Stop Button) to keep the train from over running the station.
John
Aren't these trains CBTC control (or so I thought)? This gives new meaning to the term WTFMATA! As far as the driver using foul language, I think he saw the writing on the wall.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
David
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
There is in fact a manual override. There is a stop button on the console. I addressed this in post 733220
John
No need for the extra 10’ With all of the hardware maintained both train board and way side to proper specification the berthing of the train should not be a problem.
Most of you may be to young to remember when 8 car trains were common practice, WMATA put green markers on the platforms and on the walls beyond the platforms. These markers let the operator know that all of the door were on the platform even if the train over shot or under shot the platform but not so far that the first or last door was beyond the end of the platform. Some of these green markers still exist.
The track circuit used to determine that the train is berth at the platform is 600’ long. Both ends of the train must be within this track circuit so way side train control can receive a train berth signal from both ends of the train. If the train to wayside antenna on the first or last car is beyond the boundary of the track circuit wayside control will only receive a train berth signal from one only end of the train and will not transmit a door open command to the train.
There is another solution that I don’t know if anybody thought of, mind you I don’t even know if it will work without compromising safety. Lengthen the platform track circuit by 10’ to 12’.
John
Slightly related note: Market-Fankford Line trains tend to FREQUENTLY overshoot the platform (If you're ever up here on one (or a BSS train) and hear the "triple horn" as the train slows down in the station or after it stops, that signal indicates the train needs to back up to get the doors all within the space of the platform length, as one has overshot the station), but they simply back up a bit to get the door where it needs to be. And the MFL has about equal frequencies to WMATA.
This would compromising one of the most important safety protocols designed in to the train control system. Disabling the train birthed acknowledged command would allow all of the door to be opened anywhere along the main line when the train is stopped. One less layer of the protections of safety. Also disabling the train birthed acknowledged command would eliminate the capability of opening the doors automatically when the train is properly birthed at a platform.
During the first few months of operation some of these protection were disabled just to keep the bug redden trains running. I can vividly recall as if it happened yesterday being on one of the 6 car trains that was run on opening day 03 27 1976 with a full load stopping at Farragut North. After opening the doors on the left on the Shady Grove bound side of the platform for some reason the doors opened on the right side. I was standing next to the right side doors when it happened. I stuck my head out the door an looked both ways. Luckily no one took that long step out of the train on to the grating on the florescent light trough.
John
A lot of people don’t understand that if the crowd is at one location on a given platform they will end up on a crowded car of a train that might have empty seats in other cars. Some use the system enough to know better and some a very small minority even know to board the car of the train that is closest to platform exit escalator / stair at the station they are going to.
John
Perhaps the T/O should be stationed at the middle of the train, so that he can see the rear of the train just as well as he can see the front. Do we really need the T/O to be up front on an OPTO train? I'd think cameras and other systems would do just fine in a modern railroad without the prejudices and practices of older, more established systems, such as NYC and Philly.
Click Here To View
(Tested and Viewed in Window's Media Player, Don't know if it works in any other video medium)
Enjoy!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.info
Trevor
Your pal,
Speed
Chuck Greene
til next time
A 20 year old man leaned over the edge of the platform and got nailed in the head by a train. He's now in serious condition at the hospital. Hopefully he will be okay and is now a little wiser. What happened to common sense? Is it being transferred to another life form? I wonder how that affected service.
Matt
We had one of these in NYC not too long ago. IIRC it happened on a 34th Street Platform either on the 7th or 8th Avenue Lion. As you know there, express trains in both directions use the same platform.
I suspect the dude saw a northbound train across the platform, assumed it was a local and was looking down the "express" track to see if a train was coming before making up his mind to board the first.
Well a train *was* coming, but it was coming from the direction that he wasn't looking and so clopped him.
Anyway, since the Chicago incident happened at the ballpark one might well presume that the goose did not know which wat the train was running and so got himself clopped in the back of the head.
Expect a Train at any time on any track in any direction.
Elias
Ben F. Schumin :-)
In the newest ones, there is a LED sign at each end inside. I've always seen it say merely "GREEN" or "RED". Recently I was on a Green Line to Greenbelt (it should be my daughter's nickname since she's at UMD), and the sign actually said different things. They finally programmed at least one train to do what Philadelphia's trains have been doing for 4 years now.
It said, for example:
(While doors are open) GREEN
(As it's moving along) COLUMBIA HTS
(Just when you look up in the tunnel to see what's the next station)
<<<
so you know the doors open on the left.
Then as soon as the doors open, it switches back to: GREEN
It would seem to me that they could alternate the station name and those nearly invisible arrows, so you know what you are looking at. It is not clear that the arrows mean the doors are opening on the left, but when I got off at Greenbelt, and after the train shifted to the other side of the platform before entering the terminal, there were >>> arrows showing. Now if only it could say LAST STOP or EVERYONE EXIT, so people would know it's the end of the line...
But at least they didn't pay all that money just to have it say GREEN (it just seems that way).
Go Terps!! I enjoyed my time at UMD. : )
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Your opinions are, as always, welcome and encouraged.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
I have an internal WMATA document on a different subject that gives the impression that the Rohr cars will be rehabilitated at least once more before they are retired.
The document talks about optimum train consist size for load levels at different times of the day, The running of two car trains is never mentioned in the document. The document was prepared to set a "Quality of Service" policy for WMATA metrorail. I will mark up the text of document to HTML and post for all to see.
John
Peace,
ANDEE
Nah... he only dealt with the possible sex acts.
Of course he had a *different* name for them,
To quote Heston...it's gonna be a "maaaaaaadhouse, a maaaaaaadhouse"
www.forgotten-ny.com
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/crime/nyc-slip0702,0,5636312,print.story?coll=nyc-homepage-headlines
"Just relax, we're helping you," one of the emergency workers told him.
As they took him off to the black heliocopters.
: )
If you're standing on a crisscross panel, chances are if the gibbler is in motion,
IT WILL TAKE YOU ALONG with it...
I doubt any of us have feet small enough to fit on only 1 panel.
I was wondering what had happened, and how they were planning on running D service over the bridge? I guess they diverted it over the F or A into Jay Street. Anyone know how long the disruption lasted?
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert
Peace.
ANDEE
Robert
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
In Helmetta, New Jersey, there is an old, historic Snuff Mill, formerly of the Helme company, which gave the town its name, and now the town wants to tear it down! This, in spite of the factory's being the centerpiece of Helmetta. This, in spite of the fact that it has loomed large as a landmark in town.
Why? Because they want to build houses for retirees!
Nothing wrong with building retiree housing. (We have several retirement communities - err, "active adult communities" is the going term those days - in neighboring Monroe, defraying our school taxes.) However, to tear down the whole thing, to throw away a ton of history for the sake of lower taxes, is that really the best thing to do? I think not. History is a precious thing, Helmetta, it shouldn't be squandered simply because you want to pander housing to a bunch of time-honored people.
Work on the mill site was delegated by the town to the current owners of the mill, some firm called Helmetta Lenape LLC, the other day, and the mill hasn't been used in ten years. I'd use the older parts mill as some sort of entertainment and arts center, while tearing down the newer parts (we don't need the WHOLE barn, we just need to preserve the flavor and history of Helmetta).
Some have proposed that the mill be annexed to the Jamesburg Park that lies behind the mill; the park is a Middlesex County preserve and its name is odd, as the town of Jamesburg is on the OTHER side of Helmetta (well, with a wad of Monroe Twp. sticking in between). I'm all for such a proposal. Heck, why not try running passenger trains to it as a destination? (Yes, this is a slap in the face to the opponents of the MOM rail line.)
We have an enormous "Pennsylvania Station" here in Helmetta, and, once again, the forces of Progress want to lay it to waste. That's sad.
Sincerely,
Maybe if you're lucky, the mill's haunted and the ghost will be pissed at a bunch of old folks living there. ;)
NEW YORK (AP) -- A man was shot twice in the face on a New York City subway platform, the fifth shooting on the city's transit system in just over a month.
The 23-year-old victim was in serious but stable condition after the Thursday night shooting on a Manhattan-bound platform in the borough of Queens, police said.
Police were looking for one shooter, a man, according to Detective Eric Crisafi, a police spokesman.
It was unclear what sparked the shooting or where the victim had been going when he was wounded.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/07/02/subway.shooting.ap/index.html
As for Iranian Security Personnel photographing the #7 line, most here on subtalk would find this as perfectly acceptable. They were probably looking for some ideas for the Tehran O gauge model RR club layout so their MTH R-12s won't look out of place in the sand.
You cannot.
These people are in the country only because they are attached to the Iran Mission to the UN. Otherwise they would not be permitted into the country at all. (Or so the story line goes)
We ought to treat them as any other guest to our country, but we do not have to, and we can PNG them on any trumped up charge that we would like.
That being said, I agree with you. Let them take all the pictures that they want. We should be bigger than all of the pettyness. Let them click away.
Elias
If the person doing the photography is a representative of the Islamic Republic of Iran, then it's improper.
UN diplomatic personnel from unfriendly countries are confined to a 25-mile radius of NYC. I don't know if there are any restrictions on their activities and/or movement within that radius.
What can be done about this, as good citizens to eliminate these awful and deadly occurances? I can only imagine the terror that must have resulted for any innocent bystanders.
Does anyone have some meaningful ideas?
Or are we just at risk? Or is this just a sign of the times?
I wish I knew that answer myself.
Have a Happy and Safe July 4th Everyone.
Your friend
Greg
As Archie Bunker once put it...
"Want to stop all the high jacking on airplanes?...Give ever passenger a gun before they get on the plane"
Just kidding....
Happy Holidays JPC.........
Greg
It doesn't scare me, I'll be doing massive amounts of railfanning this month.
I was interested to see this computer generated sketch of what the R 142 subway cars would look like. I had never seen this before. The roof contours looks to me a little like a London tube train.
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/new_york/new_york5.html
You can see the entire article with a lot of photos by clicking on the link at the bottom of the photo.
--Mark
-Broadway Buffer
Have a good Fourth
Here's a link an explanation of the technology and a
chance to see how it works.
http://www.urbanmapping.com/technology.html
And the only train service not running on weekends unduplicated by a weekend train is the V between 5th Avenue and Rockefeller Center. Then a separate map is unneeded.
That shows mid day service and it is closer to the weekend than the regular map with rush hour services.
Also what is the difference between the 7 and 11 lines?
Just use the regular map and ignore the B, M (except north of Myrtle), V, W, Z, and 9. The N runs local in Manhattan (north of Canal), and all 5, 6, and 7 trains run local in the Bronx and Queens. That covers all the important stuff.
Then remember to check the service advisories (online or posted in the stations—online has more details), since there will be changes.
In other words - don't take pictures.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Railfan photography isn't covered by the freedom of speech because that mainly protects people's right to criticize the government, as well as talk about stuff. The freedom of press thing is possibly applicable to railfanning, but we aren't really reporting anything. The president is breaking the freedom of press by not allowing certain aspects of the war to be photographed, and also that incident with Anton Scalia a few weeks ago.
So therefore, unfortunately, as much as we dislike it, government can ban railfan photography, for it would be constitutional to do so. Although one can argue that railfanning is their religion, or some silly thing like that, and make a railfanning religion that the government would try to ban, but can't, since that would truly be unconstitutional.
BTW, all of this sucks and I'd like to press the rewind button to the year 2000, and get Gore to do more campaigning in his home state, then rewind to 1998, when the CIA launched cruise missiles at al-Qaeda camps, and change the coordinates so that they strike al-Qaeda HQ, then this whole mess would be avoided...
No it wouldn't. Al-Qaeda is effectively a myth anyway. I'm not saying that there aren't terrorists who call themselves members of Al-Qaeda, but it's not really a hierarchical organization that would collapse with the death of its leader. These people hate America Bin Laden or not.
As a railfan I think a photo ban would be wrong-minded. I enjoy videotaping and photographing my cab rides. On the other hand, the TA's mission statement does refer to SAFE transportation and it's for the agency to determine what is needed to keep the majority of riders (who are not railfans) safe. If they determine that banning photography under narrow circumstances is prudent then it's their judgement.
Photography is not the only aspect to railfanning. Obviously some people consider Skylarking or surfing to be part of railfanning. Other railfans think that exploring tunnels, changing side signs, or tagging or even stealing a train is what railfanning is all about. Common sense dictates that if you can ban tagging or tunnel exploration as unacceptable forms of railfanning, why can't photography be equally subjectively banned. Clearly it can be but equally clearly it hasn't been to this point. If and when it is, we'll still have other ways to enjoy our hobby. Even if it is 'banned', most of us will still be able to enjoy it simply by getting a permit. Try getting a permit to photograph in Rikers Island.
Obviously though, there are some issues that I haven't seen discussed as far as this goes that might be of interest to those planning to address this issue. Obviously, commercial photography "customers" would be able to obtain a permit and credentials. I don't however see any particular interest in granting "hobbyist" permits from what I've read. But even IF the agency will be granting those, there's something folks are missing here ...
State agencies are permitted (nay, ENCOURAGED) to charge a FEE for any paperwork of any kind if paperwork is to be done, even more so if it results in some form of certificate. One of the questions I don't see being raised is what kind of *FEE* will be charged for this transaction, amounting to a "railfan tax" ... will it prohibit inner city kids from pursuing one of the less expensive "hobbies?"
I agree with you that a ban/permit requirement would almost certainly be upheld in the courts.
I would add that as a New Yorker who doesn't take pictures in the subway I think the ban would be wrong-minded. There is no conceivable way that a ban (or permit requirement) would improve security. It would give NYC even more of a bad name than it already has as a bureaucratic place that makes money by giving summonses to innocent tourists.
It would also make MTA management look very foolish, which is also bad for New York. Lots of people will realize that the ban is a way to look like you're doing something about terrorism without actually providing any substance.
Actually doing something to make the subways safe from terrorism without making them unusuable is an incredibly difficult, unglamorous, and unnoticed task. The MTA seems to be propsing an easy route to look effective without necessarily being effective.
Do you know something the rest of us don’t? I’ve seen no indications that permits will actually be available to the general public.
It also introduces an administrative burden on the TA which does not enhance the security of the subways - and will create a budget hole that DHS will not necessarily fill with federal dollars.
Having said that, I should add that there is merit in your previous post. If the TA is sensible, it will minimize the inconvenience to the rail buffs.
Incidentally, rail buffs (not the ones in the minority who trash trains, jump turnstiles or threaten public safety) are good for the TA. They ride frequently, buy MetroCards, encourage other people to ride and even advocate for the TA when hearings come up. The TA should indulge them where possible because they are allies of the agency.
How about the experience of the last two years, when one or more NYCT spokespeople have said that the MTA does require permits for photography but isn't issuing any. Surely that is a suggestion (though by no means a guarantee) of policy to come.
Are you truly 100% confident that the MTA WILL issue permits if the proposal goes through?
To qualify, you need to locate the exact location of this mezzanine.
YAY!! I win......... wtf is the prize, anyways? lol
Fulton Street Complex (being rebuilt)
Atlantic Avenue (the whole 2-3-4-5 train gig)
Bergen St. Lower (you're always giddy over it)
Entrance to Heypaul's.... ?
You have to come up with a shocking answer for this one. And I was giddy over Bergen St because neither of the two stations has a mezzanine. (Remember 95th st on "NY Underground"?)
Fulton Street J/M/Z "the 1am Saturday" sign place?
The estimated cost is now $42 million. "We've already spent $13 million. To abandon the plan at this point is not practical."
Some people call that "throwing good money after bad."
I do have problems with their plan. For example I don't understand why they're restricting themselves to 8 passengers per tram car. It seems to me that the Roosevelt Island Tram carrys more than that, and that seems possibly like what they should be aiming for. A larger tram car would likely be cheaper to operate in the long run, and might allow lower fares without subsidization. Of course then you face the prospect of unloading and loading a tram car carrying perhaps 50 people in the minute or two between cars, RI Tram has it easy since the trams do not share the same wire. I also think their ticket prices are wildly expensive, it'd be nice to see $1.25 or so prices, that might get commuters to use it. However that'd likely require a subsidy from somewhere, be it the government, the developer or the property owners. If development continues along the Camden Waterfront, then the value of such a system would only grow. With a monthly ticket I could see people commuting from Old City and the Apartments on the water to places like L3 and other companies that will presumably move in, as well as people commuting from the Nipper Building to Center City. Ideally the tram might take a Transpass, thereby eliminating the need for multiple tickets, but we all know that's too much to hope for.
Besides, in addition to 13 million dollars you have two massive piers out there on either side of the river, it looks ridiculous right now, as if they're abandoned battlements from a war that was never fought.
One of the best perks at L3 was the real Philadelphia soft pretzels all connected together to be broken apart that they sold in the cafeteria, though they always were sold out by 10 AM. Now THAT's looking after your employees.
And to think there are groups in other cities that file lawsuits to halt LRT construction after they spend 20-30x that much.
What type of ariel tram are they talking about. One like in NY or one like a ski lift? :)
If you or somebody wants to be on TV to talk about the 100 years in Transit with the trains and service go to this site
http://www.wnbc.com/mta/3395637/detail.html
I guess he didn't read the "Post Message-Click Once" warning :-)
Once upon a time there was this New Yorker who always wanted to work for the subway, he did, he wrote a book and now he lives out West.
Everyone awoke.
Now what? Another shooting?
Did they stop teaching grammar, punctuation and sentence structure in schools?
By Lyndsey Layton
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, July 2, 2004; Page B01
Metro's top manager said yesterday that he will monitor conditions in subway stations on weeknights after 10, when Metro is trying to save money by running shorter trains, and will restore longer trains if crowding is a problem.
"If it requires us to keep all or part of the system at four-car trains instead of breaking them down [into two-car trains], that's what we'll have to do," Metro Chief Executive Richard A. White said.
White made those comments as complaints from the public poured in to the transit system and a Metro board member questioned the wisdom of the new policy.
This week, Metro cut the length of trains in half, from four cars to two, on every line after 10 p.m. Sunday through Thursday. Metro expects the plan will save $1 million a year in reduced electrical, labor and maintenance costs.
White said Metro workers will count the number of passengers boarding trains after 10 p.m. next week. He said he would restore the four-car trains if the stations were busy and if short trains would mean some passengers would be left on platforms.
That was exactly the condition Tuesday night at the Metro Center Station between 10:30 and 11 p.m.
Passengers were unable to squeeze onto jammed Orange and Blue Line trains and had to wait 15 to 20 minutes to try to board the next train. Many riders mentioned ruefully that the trains shrank the same week Metro began charging higher fares and fees.
"We're paying more and getting less," said Donald Center, 23, of Centreville.
Since the policy took effect, it has created a late Metro crunch, especially on the heavily traveled Red Line in downtown Washington. At the Farragut North, Metro Center, Gallery Place-Chinatown and Union Station stops, angry crowds have found themselves competing for space on the late trains.
The crowding has caused some schedule delays, and several riders complained about missing connections to buses. By the time her two-car Blue Line train reached the Addison Road-Seat Pleasant Station stop on Monday, Karen Hayes had missed the last C26 bus of the night. She and a friend had to spend $15 on a cab ride home. "The train was, like, 10 minutes late," said Hayes, 38. "The bus was completely gone."
The cuts come as local governments and businesses in the District, Bethesda and Arlington are promoting nightlife.
By yesterday afternoon, Metro had received 118 complaints about the short trains, an unusually high number. Some came from riders who said they had to let one or two go past before they could board.
"People are being excluded from our trains," D.C. Council member Jim Graham (D-Ward 1), who represents the District on the Metro board, said during a Metro meeting yesterday. "It's the antithesis of what we want. We're leaving them on the platforms. This was not our intention. I want a quick analysis of the seriousness of this problem."
As they debated the future of two-car trains, Metro directors also heard a progress report from Metro staff members about the prospects for operating eight-car trains.
The subway was built to operate eight-car trains, but Metro has never had enough rail cars to run trains that long. Instead, it runs a mix of four- and six-car trains during the peak periods. A crowded six-car train can handle 720 riders; an eight-car train has room for 960.
To run eight-car trains during peak hours, Metro would have to buy 120 rail cars, upgrade its power system and expand its rail yards at a cost of about $625 million.
Metro managers said recent tests delivered good news: The transit system doesn't have to install additional equipment along the tracks to make sure the longer trains stop in the right spots in the stations consistently.
Board members must decide by October whether to exercise an option on Metro's most recent rail car contract and order 50 additional subway cars. If they do, eight-car trains could run by 2006, White said.
They should hold last busses of the night which are scheduled to depart in conjunction with train arrivals if the trains are late. Just good customer service.
Simpson St closing.
I also see the swipers will have a field day at that station too.
This is strange because there is entry and exit access to the Uptown side, but not for the disabled.
Full details available at www.gravtran.com.
Mark
I have a picture of new kind of car I drew as a child, with a motor hooked up to a generator. Since generators were more powerful than motors, I figured there had to be enough left over to run the car.
Ever since then, engineering types have been telling me, and the cold fusion people, that we were out of luck. We were just looking in the wrong place. On a train, anything is possible.
What does purpetual motion have to do with a train gliding downhill? Isn't that what gravtrain is? Gravity, going downhill. And then how do you get it to go back up the hill? Is this used just for express runs down the hill? Or does it store the energy like a wind-up toy to go back up it?
Mark
They should hold last busses of the night which are scheduled to depart in conjunction with train arrivals if the trains are late. Just good customer service.
WASHINGTON (July 2) - A federal appeals court ruled Friday that Amtrak employees can't walk off the job to protest what they call chronic government underfunding of the passenger railroad.
Members of unions representing 8,000 of Amtrak's 21,000 employees said in October they'd call a work stoppage because Congress and the Bush administration wouldn't give the railroad enough money. Such an action could have affected intercity passenger service as well as commuter trains in some major cities.
The unions argued that the law banning strikes doesn't apply to the proposed walkout because it would be a political action that had nothing to do with negotiations over pay or working conditions.
The court disagreed, noting that Amtrak unions are engaged in negotiation or mediation with the railroad over new contracts.
"Call it a political protest rather than a strike; no matter," the court said, adding that federal law prohibits a strike as well as any union tactic that "has the consequences of a strike."
Amtrak lost its initial lawsuit in federal court to prevent the walkout. The unions agreed that they wouldn't do anything until a higher court ruled on the railroad's appeal.
Since then, Congress gave Amtrak $600 million less than the $1.8 billion that the railroad's president said it needed for 2004. President Bush had proposed giving Amtrak about half of what it wanted.
Douglas Ginsburg, chief judge of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, wrote that the amount that Congress gives to Amtrak determines how much it can pay its employees.
"We think it clear that, insofar as the subject matter of the unions' proposed strike is the level of congressional appropriations for Amtrak, the strike does 'grow out of' the major dispute between Amtrak and the unions over the formation of new collective bargaining agreements concerning, among other things, rates of pay and working conditions," Ginsburg wrote.
For the budget year starting in October, Amtrak asked for $1.798 billion. Bush proposed giving the railroad $900 million.
On the Net:
Amtrak: http://www.amtrak.com
07/02/04 11:47 EDT
Copyright 2004 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.
Right! This would allow for NJ Transit to finally run ON TIME (as long as the engines don't die due to the deplorable maintenace)!
'Tain't so McGee!
AMTK runs NYP
0 AMTK = 0 NYP
0 NYP = Shitsandwhich on NJT
:(
Two of the tracks would get the E train to the Court St. station, that is now used by the Transit Museum. The C and E would run this way, and use the currently abandoned outside tracks of the Hoyt-Schermerhorn station. There would be a new station at the tip of Manhattan. In addition, I envision the E train running down the Franklin Avenue ROW (which would have to be modified) and down the Brighton Line as a local, terminating at Ocean Avenue.
Two of the tunnels tracks would connect to the Second Avenue Subway. In Brooklyn, it would run under, but not stop at, the IND Court St. station. There would be a new four track, two platform lower level at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. The SAS would stop here.
The last two tracks would connect to Whitehall Street, allowing the W train to travel to Brooklyn in this new tunnel, and also hook up to a future lower level of the Nassau Street Loop, which would connect to the express tracks at Chambers Street. These two tunnel tracks would run under the IND Court Street station, without stopping, and it have a stop at the new lower level of Hoyt Schermerhorn
From the new lower level of Hoyt Schermerhorn, two tracks would continue to eventually connect with the LIRR's Atlantic Terminal. This would allow the implementation of the RPA's recomendation, from their Rx plan, of using the Atlantic Avenue line. Also, two tracks would continue to a future lower level of the Fourth Avenue BMT line to Staten Island. This would be a four track line, with stops at Pacific Street, and 59th Street before heading to St. George.
Also, two tracks would be built, between the upper level local and express tracks of the Fulton Street line, that would connect to the lower level.
Thoughts?
There is a short six-track tunnel in Queens (of sorts) - under Northern Blvd, until the 63rd St ramps then rise and merge with the other four tracks.
Good, creative idea for subtalk, but probably will not happen in our lifetime because of $$$, politics, and bureacratic red tape.
I believe in the econometric analysis of presidential politics, which means that Bush will probably be reelected. 2006 could be the year that Charlie Rangle assumes the Ways & Means throne.
The only problem with your plan is: From the new lower level of Hoyt Schermerhorn, two tracks would continue to eventually connect with the LIRR's Atlantic Terminal. This would allow the implementation of the RPA's recomendation, from their Rx plan, of using the Atlantic Avenue line.
This gets you an automatic "Bzzzt", as Subway and LIRR aren't (legally, at least) compatible, so that would mean no LIRR to Atlantic Terminal, and that just ain't gonna happen unless Pataki has some sort of magical plan up his sleeve ("Yes, Yes, Young William, the AirTrain/Subway will just hover slightly above the LIRR... - we will call it 'FRA approved Phase-Dimensional-Separation'")
R-32.
The idea good, but at the same time total fantasy. It would not at all be possible. Not just financially, but it would just not be possible to build. Plus, do you really think it would be useful, or would it just be throwing money in the garbage?
********************************************************************
I had an idea I thought up a few years ago an A-Division 2nd Ave Subway idea. An (8) & <8>. (8) would go from the (6) & <6> in the Bronx, Exp replacing <6>. Then after 3 Ave it will go along 2 Ave to 2 St where it will switch over to Allen St. (<8> would cut in from Roosevelt Island and run Exp. Then will go along there and stop at E Bway and then go over the Manhattan Bridge and terminating on a new platform at Atlantic Ave.
I think that might make a little more sense and be a little more useful.
-Broadway Buffer
Have a good Fourth
If its possible to pull of such a proposal, and keep the Transit Museum intact, that would be great. Rather than a station at Court Street, there could be a station at Atlantic Avenue, perhaps closer to the water.
Also, as much as I love it, I would never let the Transit Museum dictate the evolution of the Subway System. That's the tail wagging the dog. The museum can always be moved.
Where can they move it to? Any other abandoned stations that are in good enough condition to have the Transit Museum moved to it?
Here are all the abandoned stations:
City Hall
Worth
18 ST
91 ST
Myrtle
Sedgwick
Jerome
Cortland
Tell me which one to move the Transit Museum to. Looks to me like none of the above are possibe, but you give me your opinions.
-Broadway Buffer
Have a good Fourth
Why not the lower level of 9th Avenue in Brooklyn? Three tracks, none in revenue service. There's even some area outside of the portals to build an additional structure (such as a museum building and/or street entrance), or to extend the station itself, in order to display more cars.
And it'd be good for the neighborhood. Even if the present museum dosen't close I would like to see this happen. As a secondary museum it could possibly offer a more intense look at Brooklyns transit history. Call it the Brooklyn Annex.
-Broadway Buffer
Happy Fourth
And even if there was no plan to bring back a Culver Exp, Bergen lower level would still cost way too much to repair. Plus, u really need an island platform for a transit museum, not w/ trains on 2 different sides.
-Broadway Buffer
Well at least we will not need to worry about that scheme.
Of course *I* have my own scheme for six new tracks to Brooklyn, but it has absolutely NOTHING to do with existing lions.
We already have a Cranberry Tunnel,
I propose to add a Pineapple Tunnel and an Orange Tunnel.
The Pineapple tunnel is a four track/two level tunnel handling local and express trains from my new Myrtle-fifth Avenue Subway, and the Orange Tunnel Takes some local trains from both 5th Avenue and 9th avenue and runs them LOCAL on Fulton Street via the old Court Street tracks, however they come up Camden Place and miss the existing Transit Museum which is unaffected by this construction.
The Fulton Local tracks are then removed from the existing subway system and are exclusivly the use of the Local trains via the Orange Tunnel. This is because these trains use high speed technology and liner induction motors, and are not compatible with the older system.
This line is extended to Cross bay Blvd via 76th Street & etc.
Express Trains on The Fulton Line include the (A) to Lefferts the (E) to JFK and the Rockaways.
Rational: Existing Trunk Lines are FULL : Additional service is needed in the outlying areas. New Service needs new crossing and new trunks.
Elias
In two of my NYCT scenarios, I have a similar arrangement with the E train serving a new lower level of the Court Street Station (the transit museum, also allowing it to serve the outer tracks at Hoyt-Schemerhorn. In my main scenario, E service accesses Court Street from a "new route" south of WTC, where it proceeds via a lower level that continues southward beneath the current A and C Chambers STreet Station. In one of my alternate scenarios, E servcie connects to Court STreet and Hoyt-Schemerhorn via a more longer routing:
E service would proceed southbound via the Worth Street Connnector as per IND Second System plans, proceed into Brooklyn in Williamsburgh, through the South 4th STreet STation, and then proceed southwest towards Downtown Brooklyn via Myrtle Avenue, until it reaches an abrupt curve at Flatbush AVenue, bringing the tunnel under Tillary Street, following by a brief south trek down Clinton STreet, before turning east along Schemerhorn Street, to the lower level Court Street Station.
In both scenarios, southbound E service then proceeds downgrade via a short slightly seprentine tunnel that connects to the BMT Dekalb Avenue Station, and from there has access to the BMT Southern Division.
The BMT Southern Division alread has enough service (un less you are planning for the bridge to fall)... in any event the (E) and other existing trains are not needed there.
I suggest STOP trying to connect to existing stuff. THAT IS ALREADY SATURATED! Show me how you would build a whole NEW service.
Elias
I believe you can find plenty of information on that at the mta's website, section Capital Construction, Second Avenue Subway, newest file. Not that it means that the line - sorry, lion - will actually be built - ehhrrmmm, conceived, that is - since lots and lots of money - ...no, I'm not even going there ;-) - is required.
Connecting the E train to the Brighton Line, via the Fulton Street Line, would probably use a new 2 track subway under the Franlin ROW. The elevated Franklin Avenue and Park Place stations would be replaced, and the Botanic Garden station would need its platforms lengthened. The Prospect Park station would need little, if any major modifications.
So I would have the E and 2nd Av. on Fulton, The A replace the B as the primary Brighton Exp. (like they had wanted to do years ago, but it would still be 8th Av.) The C would b replace the M on the West End. The M would move to 95th. The B and C could then be rush hour specials. With the new cars, the B, C and D would use the same equipment, so they could swap back to their old terminals uptown. Middays, the B from 168 would have to terminate somewhere. Or the Q might wind up becoming the rush hour special. Weekends, I haven't decided yet.
Or the flipside; C, D and Q on Brighton, and A and B on West End.
More realistically, you would probably send only one 8th Av. service through DeKalb. The other then could stay on Fulton allowing one line each for Euclid, Lefferts and Rockaway.
The Airtrain/LIRR proposal already contemplates shared use with the subway. It isn't going to be 4 or 6 tubes, which you cannot justify. None of the existing East River subway crossings is more than 2 tubes. If they build this thing at all, it will be 2 tubes.
Secondly, do the Staten Island residents really want a tunnel to Brooklyn, then have to travel on the 4th Ave. line to Manhattan? If you're going to build a tunnel from Staten Island, connect it to either the J/M/Z at Broad, the N/R/W at Whitehall, or a continuation of the E. If the IRT was the right width, a connection to the new terminal at S/F would be perfect.
If we are gonna propose new subway tunnels, I'd propose one between Staten Island and Manhattan, for example a direct connection to the "South Ferry complex" via a Loop track of the SIRT. The SIRT at St. George would dive deep under the bay, head to Manhattan, and there would be a loop station (similar to WTC PATH) that has transfer connections to all three of the subway stations that serve South Ferry. Of course the SI-Ferry could still run as a tourist attraction, and as an alternative method to get home/work. The headways and trains-per-hour on this segment of the SIRT would have to be increased greatly. A schedule similar to the ferry will not do.
If we are gonna propose new transit tunnels, I'd propose a four-track into and out of Penn Station and New Jersey. This new tunnel would increase the flexibility and train congestion that the station suffers each day.
Since our current Governor is still bent on that connection between Atlantic Avenue and the Wall Street area, as a means to get to JFK Airport - they can get a new tunnel and station in Lower Manhattan. Instead of taking the A/C Cranberry tunnel away from the A/C lines and their large number of minority riders and giving away the access to a group of riders that are largely not minority, often with higher incomes -- for in comparison seldom used trips to the airport. Who ever thought of the idea of taking away a subway tunnel away from the A/C lines (for a routing through West 4th Street) that misses a major transfer point at Fulton Street - who ever thought up that idea has to be a major user of the sort of drugs that have to be illegal, or they had been released from the loony bin.
Considering how the current Atlantic Terminal stub-ends right up against the 2-3-4-5 lines at the Atlantic Avenue complex - the whole idea seems like a boondoggle of money to be wasted.
Just my thoughts.
Mike
If the number of connections is adequate, than why is there wide spread acceptance of the idea of extending the LIRR's Atlantic Terminal to Lower Manhattan? This is either proposed as LIRR service to Lower Manhattan, or in the RPA's Rx proposal.
The truth is that an additional 4 tracks of connectivity are seriously being discussed. At least 2 tracks will be built. I'm only proposing 2 tracks beyond the 4.
The idea of eventually running a Staten Island connection through Brooklyn is because wit wouldn't be that much longer of a trip, and it would increase system flexibility.
As for additional tunnels from new Jersey to Manhattan, I don't think that any of us will live to see that. No government has ever paid to build a trans-Hudson rail tunnel, and with New York's disaproval with the way the PA funds are allocated, I just don't see this happening. Especially with the commuter tax a thing of the past. Why would New York pay to make living in New Jersey more attractive?
Using the sunken tube scenario there would be a significant amount of cut and cover in both lower Manhattan and in Brooklyn to connect the river tunnels to the lines on both sides of the East River. Six individual shield bored tunnels would have less affect on the surface between the river bulkhaed and the points where these tunnels connect to the existing system.
John
Not really that difficult. WMATA did two discrete shield bored single track tunnels stacked under a 3 lane street to avoid surface impact to the building along the street above. I don’t know the exact measurement of top of rail to top of rail from one tunnel to the other, but I think it’s some where between 30’ (9.14m) and 40’ (12.19m). The geology along this section was so tight that the floor of the bottom tunnel had to excavated about 2’ bedrock under the sand and clay above the boundary of bedrock.
Stacking six discrete shield bored single track tunnels would have a pretty large distance from the top tunnel to the bottom tunnel. Paired tunnels at the same depth can be as close together as 20’ (7.62m) centers depending on the geology. Three over three is one option as will as two over two over two.
John
This would depend on the geology the tunnels would be going through. Hard clay and rock use one type of boring machine. Soft soil or sedimentary sand requires another type of boring machine. Another thing that also need to be considered is the water table and moisture density in the soft soil or sedimentary sand. Shield type of boring machine are more commonly used through soft soil or sedimentary sand for tunnels under water. These type of tunnels are usably lined with some form of segmented tunnel lining.
The stacked tunnels I mentioned in the previous post pumped grout in to the sands and clay to displace the water in the area outside the finished tunnel envelope. This stabilize the soil to prevent settling of the ground and structures on the surface from the lowering of the water table.
John
wayne
Okay... nice concept.
Two of the tracks would get the E train to the Court St. station, that is now used by the Transit Museum. The C and E would run this way, and use the currently abandoned outside tracks of the Hoyt-Schermerhorn station. There would be a new station at the tip of Manhattan. In addition, I envision the E train running down the Franklin Avenue ROW (which would have to be modified) and down the Brighton Line as a local, terminating at Ocean Avenue.
Ocean Pkwy station would have to be hugely modified too. The Q train would effectively become STR in this scenario, although that would entail running some B service nights and weekends.
The last two tracks would connect to Whitehall Street, allowing the W train to travel to Brooklyn in this new tunnel, and also hook up to a future lower level of the Nassau Street Loop, which would connect to the express tracks at Chambers Street.
The W not going to Brooklyn isn't a capacity problem. It's a simple matter of lack of demand. These 2 tracks wouldn't be particularly useful and your SI connector is a bit over the top really too.
4 tracks allowing WTC - Court St and SAS - Atlantic Av LIRR would be enough.
I'm not too sure about the priority of Atlantic Av either. That just seems to be moving a transfer from Flatbush to Jamaica, which doesn't really achieve very much, except having a load of reversing moves added to the already complicated junctions at Jamaica.
If I were to propose a plan, it would run something like this:
- From the SAS terminal at Hanover Sq under the East River (2 track tunnel) to connect with the Fulton St Lcl at Court St. (Maybe the Brighton could be connected).
- From a new deeper 8th Av Lcl WTC station curving downtown under Wall St (station with transfer to the 2-3 and J-M-Z lines), then running under Myrtle Av (stations Jay St (AFMR), Vanderbilt Av, Franklin - Bedford Avs, Marcy - Tompkins Avs (G), Broadway (JMZ), Wyckoff Av (LM), Summerfield St, 70th St, 80th St, Woodhaven Blvd), Hillside Av (Lefferts Blvd), then becoming the Hillside Exp.
In case I didn't make it clear, the idea is to have the E train run local on the Brighton Line, and terminate on the express tracks at Ocean Avenue. Q service should not be affected.
More details to come later.
But here's the flaw, look at this mistake in the flyer .pdf document. Since when is a station on the Concourse line, 3 blocks long?
Add one more station not mentioned (DUH!).
Prospect Avenue, N/B. This in addition to Simpson N/B, closes Tuesday at 10AM. The token booth ONLY will be shut down through November, with access to the platform via a HEET.
I'm not really sure why Prospect wasn't mentioned anywhere, but Clerks have been notified by a bulletin of the booth closing.
-Stef
At Freeman St where both sides are closing, those Clerks must go extra.
If I have to read in between the lines though, and the Clerk on WAA has to walk up and down the platform for 8 hours, I might say the Clerk was performing the duties of the Station Customer Assistant. Do you see where I'm going with this?
-Stef
I would think it was mentioned when we went to pick for Summer 2004.
As for WAA, I have no clue as to what those clerks will do, the cynic in me was talking before....
-Stef
In Washington it's a Saturday schedule, and us contractors who get slightly different holidays have to work in empty government buildings.
Da Hui
Chuck
That's SRNJ.
We Quail in our seats!
Chuck Greene
Just make beleve this film is for the TTC, how would you rate it then? hmm...
Coney Island/Stillwell Avenue-
-------------------------------
B D F M N QB Q W
About the only redeeming factor was the accurate portrayal of how the car was rigged for the getaway, according to the novel. TTC didn't seem to care that a window had to be busted out in order to fit the pipes together since the cars in the movie were about to be scrapped anyway.
Chuck Greene
I still need to see the original to this still -_-, does Target carry the original version of this on dvd/video?
I can get to one easly, thanks for meantioning that they got it!
Lt. Garber: "I'm listening!"
Lt. Petrone: "They're gonna fly the train to Cuba"
Lt. Garber: "You're a sick man, Rico!"
and when Garber finally meets Lt. Daniels in person (they had been communicating via radio for sometime) and discovers he's black... Garber goes, "Oh, I uh, I thought you were uh, like kinda shorter... ah, I don't know what I thought!"
and toward the beginning, when Lt. Garber (played by Walter Matthau) is giving a tour of the transit command center to some Tokyo subway brass, he assumes that they don't speak any English and although he provides an informative tour, he constantly slips in some insults, calling them "dummies" and what-not. Finally, after the hijackers announce themselves and everybody gets involved with that, one of the dispatchers (Frank Correll) notices them and yells out loud, "What the hell are all these Chinamen doing in here?!" and Garber goes, "Hey Johnny, will you take these monkeys up to 13" (to say goodbye to the MTA chairman), and then the one Japanese guy goes, in perfect English, "It's okay, Lietenant, I'm sure we can find it by ourselves!" while another one thanks him for an informative and exciting tour and they all bow as they leave... the look on Garber's face was damn near priceless as he hung his head in shame!
What a great movie...!
Plumber: How come that gate ain't locked?
Caz Dolowicz: Who's gonna steal a subway train?
Caz Dolowicz: Oh, come on. If I've got to watch my language just because they let a few broads
in, I'm going to quit. How the hell can you run a goddamn railroad without swearing?
An absolute classic on SO many levels. And the DVD is still available. :)
Took me MONTHS to even --find-- the DVD at a local vendor.
Most had the placeholder but no gig.
It never ceases to amaze me how people are willing to do the "thinkatude" required to GET a punchline, and yet cannot do the math when it comes to politics or other issues that are very serious. I suppose it's true what I was told by politicians when I worked for them - "insanity is the best policy." :)
Tak WIFE, please. (grin)
Frank: Christ, to hear you plead with that chickenshit makes me ashamed to be an American.
Garber: Go away, will you, Frank? Go play with your trains.
Well, I think the 4 and 5 also used R21/R22s...but I think the real reason R22s (and they were all R22s, at least the 3 cars whose numbers can be made out clearly: 7339, 7439, 7434) were used is due to the fact that the script called for the storm door window to be open (when the 2 kids in the beginning were railfanning, when Mr. Grey was shooting back at the police snipers, etc.), and everyone knows it is impossible to get that round storm window open on an R-17! :)
Also, in my opinion, I liked the ABC-TV movie version that played a few years ago starring Edward James Olmos better. :)
And I think you're the only one who likes the ABC remake of "Pelham 123." Nearly everyone I know regards it as a trainwreck, pun intended.
BTW, you can pick up the DVD of Pelham 123 for 13 bucks american and used for 7 or 8 bucks.
Your pal,
Fred
Hollywood is so orginality bankrupt that almost every new movie is a remake of a title or TV show done 30 or 40 years ago (better).
The number of makeovers issued lately that went right to video is legendary.
Not one of the remakes is as good as the original. That's a hard fact.
I felt that the first Batman movie was too dark (if Gotham City was as dark as portraied, half the inhabitants would have committed suicide.)
Jack Nicholson's Joker steals that one.
The one with George Clooney as Bruce Wayne/Batman was the best of the three, as he portraied the character as Bob Kane envisioned.
Adam West was better than Michael Keaton but I'd give the edge to the 1989 film as the best Batman version. Danny Devito as the Penguin in the "Batman Returns" film was cool but the rest of the sequels deserve to be dumped into the nearest trash can.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
The fact that the most of the scene was done unintentionally (except for that lady moving the grocery cart), added with the grime and darkness the system harborbed back then made it into what it is today. No remake should never be attempted.
Hijackers:
Blue: Alexander Siddig(Dr Bashir on DS9)
Green: Carl Reiner
Gray: Quentin Tarantino or George Clooney
Brown: John Malkovich
TA Police, Command Center, NYPD, and City Gov't:
Lt Clive Prescott: Avery Brooks
Captain Rico Patrone: Jerry Stiller
IRT Trainmaster Joseph Lazzaro: James Gandolfini
DCI Eduardo Martinez: Esai Morales
Train Operator: James Avery
Conductor: Matthew Broderick(keep it in the family)
TA Patrolman at 28 St: Matt Damon
Mayor: Gene Hackman
Deputy Mayor: Sidney Potier
Police Comissioner: Dennis Franz
This is of course a small sample, and I'm always open for any improvement. Can't think of anyone that can fit the Grand Central Tower cast but it needs two men, two women. And not to mention the hostages. But in this version, ol' Capt. Patrone guesses it right: "They're gonna fly the train to Cuba" although we know they'll end up somewhere else.
Jimmy :)
I would like to see Michael Moore do a documentary on film about the art of railfans or something similar. He could possibly cast Olmos in a role just as riveting as impersonating an ex-Bolivian math teacher. :)
--Mark
(I've already set down the appropriate equipment timers and assigned an SP tape).... 0:)
Taking Pictures of Pelham One Two Three, and will have Walter Matthau going around busting railfans.
1. Who would win
...and...
2. Which kind of tunnel layout would be advantageous for both sides?
an R10 on the tv, brahs!!
That *is* part of Mass Transit here in our city, all the more so since it links with RAIL on both ends of its run.
You may even speak about on tick, though it is off topik. but polyticks ain't allowed sort of.
Of course polyticks is part of transit, but not all of it is.
Elias
The *rest* of the Story...
Why, on BROADWAY, of course! : )
Mark
June Metrorail Ridership shatters records
More people took trips on Metrorail during June than during any other month in Metrorail’s 28-year history. Ridership for the month was 17,649,609 and averaged 706,557 riders per weekday.
During June, ridership exceeded 700,000 on 16 days, and it marked the first time in Metro history that the average weekday ridership exceeded the 700,000 mark. Typical average weekday ridership for the fiscal year was 650,000.
Last month also saw the highest ridership day in Metrorail history on June 9 when 850,636 trips were taken on the same day there was a funeral procession through downtown Washington, DC, for former President Ronald Reagan. The following day on June 10, when Reagan’s casket was lying in state at the U.S. Capitol, 763,121 people took trips on Metrorail, the fourth highest ridership in the system’s history.
Seven days last month made Metro’s “Top Ten” ridership days list.
“The ridership totals for June were tremendous,” said Metro CEO Richard A. White. “Metro matters to this region, yet we typically see a spike during June as the region sees an influx of visitors riding along with our regular customers. We can only speculate that the high price of gasoline may also be making an impact, however we have no way of measuring that possibility.
“As more people continue to turn to Metro and greater numbers continue to depend on us, it becomes even more important for our funding partners to recognize the importance of maintaining our aging infrastructure,” Mr. White said. “We are at a crossroads where our transit system needs $1.5 billion to allow us to sustain our service levels and system reliability to meet future demands for service. We need additional capital funding to modernize our assets, to purchase additional buses and railcars and ensure an adequate level of security. Without that capital funding, severe overcrowding will eventually erode our system, driving commuters back onto the region’s already congested roads.”
Metro’s top ten Ridership Days list
Rank
Date
Ridership Event
1
June 9, 2004
850,636
Reagan State Funeral Ceremony
2
January 20, 1993
811,257
Clinton’s First Inauguration
3
October 16, 1995
804,146
Million Man March
4
June 10, 2004
763,121
Reagan State Funeral Ceremony
5
July 30, 2003
745,627
Assemblies Of God Convention
and World Cup Soccer
6
June 16, 2004
738,747
No Event
7
June 24, 2004
734,125
No Event
8
June 15, 2004
733,247
No Event
9
June 17, 2004
730,772
No Event
10
June 23, 2004
727,823
No Event
BOSTON, Mass. - Protesters gathered at Park Street station during the morning rush hour yesterday to condemn the MBTA's upcoming random bag-check policy, handing out leaflets, singing songs, and urging riders to resist what they say is an incursion on Constitutional rights, according to a story in the Boston Globe today. The T Riders Union, the American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts, the National Lawyers Guild, the Arab-American Anti-Defamation Committee, and several other groups formed a new coalition, the Safe and Free T Alliance, to rally support against the policy.
The groups are planning a lawsuit against the random searches, alleging that such a practice violates the Fourth Amendment ban on unreasonable search and seizure and may lead to racial and ethnic profiling. Opponents also say they don't think randomly searching bags will improve security.
''The T's going to have a real problem with this, as people realize it's fake security and a [public relations] exercise, and what their rights are and what they're giving up," said Nancy Murray of the ACLU. ''Where will it end? Are we going to start searching cars?"
Michael Mulhern, general manager of the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority, said the agency had a ''compelling public interest" in instituting the policy, which is to begin in a few days. ''We had half a dozen lawyers look at it," he said. ''We are very comfortable with the justification" leading up to the Democratic National Convention.
The MBTA plans to send teams of officers to randomly selected subway and commuter rail stations, to stop individuals on a random basis and inspect their bags before they enter the system. During convention week, that will intensify, and T police ''will be getting some help" to cover more stations, Mulhern said. In addition, any rider with large bags during that week will be subject to automatic search and no large bags will be allowed on the Orange Line.
Protesters performed skits mocking the policy and sang new lyrics to the tune of ''Charlie on the MTA," including the chorus, ''We are still not safe beneath the streets of Boston - it's the plan that's wasting our time." About 1.1 million people use the transit system daily. Several riders interviewed yesterday said they had no problem with the policy.
''Here are my bags," said Andover resident Rob Hoff, 42, who works in Cambridge. He held out two tote bags. ''I don't want to die in a T station."
''I'm not sure it's OK, but I'm not intimidated by it," said probation officer Elizabeth Davis, 38, who plans on riding her bicycle to work at a downtown courthouse during convention week. ''If it's safety [they want], then they need to look at the idea of shutting the entire thing down."
Shannon Gracia, 27, who takes a bus, commuter rail, and the subway from New Bedford to her health services job at Suffolk University, said she was subjected to an extensive search before a recent flight to Florida and found it embarrassing to have her private items gone through. But she said she was willing to be searched for security. ''There's things you have to weigh. If it's your safety and your city's safety, it's worth it," she said. ''If you have nothing to hide, it shouldn't be an issue."
term coined by our very own Amanda
I'm sure there are those amoung you out there that whenever you were looking at a Movie or TV show and saw a shot of the NYC Subway or Commuter Rail, you suddenly got this burning desire to find out what part of the system that was and the location.
Well I have a challenge for those who care to indulge me on this!! A few years ago a Movie came out called "FRESH" and it has a very nice daytime shot of what I believe is a train of R-42 cars making a sharp turn from a set of mailine tracks that are elevated.
After a lot of pausing and freeze framing and restudying my current subway map, I have long since figured it out. I don't expect an answer right away, but this is now out there for anyone who cares to take me up on this!!
Frank Hicks
They have all NY BVE stuff, including trains and routes.
Though there offline at the moment, keep the link as reference to check back.
Since Ed Yee did that car, anyone who needs it can find it here:
http://r68a_5200.tripod.com/cars/r68a.htm
And I'm pleased to report that the new ARNINE for BVE is coming along NICELY. :)
I started on a BVE arnine a little over a year ago, got the train.dat file done and running nicely (sounds and everything) but never got a chance to get to Branford again to do what I *really* wanted to do, take photographs in the cab and use THAT. Ed Yee (who did the nicely animated R68A cab) decided to pick up on it and is running with it now. He's also tweaked up the train.dat and is working now on the controllers and animating that like he did with the R68A.
It's going to be VERY nice. :)
He still has to work on the air pressure guage, but I'm confident he'll get it done and come out with the greatest R9 BVE will ever have. ;)
At least we ain't putting one of those cheezy red-tipped plastic Sears Craftsman jobbies in there. That would require the administration of a beating with a shoe slipper. Heh. I sent him back the artwork night before last indicating the front lefty corner on the stand where the reverser key lug goes and suggested moving the butthole and handle a bit forward and to the right (the controller hangs over the side on those and runs along the centerline parallel with the windshield) but otherwise he's got it nailed.
Should be interesting to see how he fits the indication fairy over the air gauge and whether or not he gets the wiper blade handle in there. The gauge itself looked wonderful. Sadly, BVE won't allow him to get the circular fetish in the needles themselves, but hey - if that's the only thing left to whine over, happy clams indeed.
But as to that black plastic on the brake handle - Joe Korman went and put a Schwinn handlebar rubber on his, but that ain't company issue. We were given gloves and a bare cast iron handle in the field. :)
Hayos
It's a great way to get people out of cars and onto trains for much of their trip.
I also helped you, it aint very nice of you to thank him and exclude me.
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jimlynch
I have Preview turned off in my Outlook Inbox.
If there is a message I want to see, I can double click on it.
Some email is filtered from known senders into other folders where preview is used.
I also have the Spamfighter plug-in running. That nabs about 40 spams daily. That is after my server, five black hole services, a killfile, and a spam trap have gone after them.
I'd ditch Outlook, but it does do other things for me. What the worth of them is I am not sure.
Elias
All I have to do is check the Qurb folder, if any is real mail that's new, I click Qurb's Approve button and "Presto!!!!", the sender is added to the Whitelist. Everything else is tagged and deleted.
Thrusday thru Sunday are supposed to be the big ones for spam, but today - a grand total of 4.
Spam Cop blocked 546
NJABL blocked 22
Spamhaus blocked 83
SORBS blocked 1
The Kill File blocked 2
11 were blocked for subject and date errors
For a Total of 665 rejected by the mail server and not eliverd to anybody's inbox.
Another 21 failed on the content filters and were dumped into the bit bucket for further examination and redelivery to the intended users.
Another 42 were trapped by Spamfighter and removed from my Inbox.
They gotta do something about spam and other trojans and viruses on the internet to curtail this stuff.
Elias
A LOT come from a link on the Baltimore Blast Fan Club site, which supports the Baltimore Blast Indoor Soccer Team. My wife is the Membership person for the Fan Club and the link is for membership info. The link is to our real mail address and we can't shut it down because we get maybe 1 or 2 real membership inquiries. The rest is 100% spam thanks to the bots that troll the web.
As to the government doing something to stop spam and then other "goodies", forget it. A court ruled that it's "free speech". BULL!!!!
Da Hui
If you spent some time on NYC subway trains, you'd know the battery seller "catch-phrase" of "not 3, not 4, not 5...8!" Dewd ... gotta get out more often. :)
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My trip almost ended after we started, because some brain-dead idiot nearly drove into the path of 3516 at Haddon and MLK [Mickle] Blvd., this asshole literally made a left turn so near the tracks, the operator slammed on the brakes. I saw a few people in the doorway get tossed around, but there were no injuries. The train was the 4:11 out of Walter Rand, and it was PACKED. First, the train had a lot of the people who went to the Aquarium/Battleship/Tall Ships, plus it caught a lot of the early rush out of Philly. The train was full all the way up to Trenton [Despite our near-miss and some slow running, we were only 2 minutes behind schedule the entire trip]. At Trenton, I got off, and took a pit stop, then got on the 5:30 departure. The southbound trip [on the same car 3516] was a little emptier than usual because the NEC train was late getting in to Trenton. But this train got crowded quickly as a lot of concert goers got on at Bordentown, Roebling, Florence, and both Burlington stations. By the time we got back into Camden. the train was just as packed going in as it was going out. Only a few got off at WRTC, but a horde more got on to go to the Tweeter Center.
I noticed the other three trains coming in [thanks to the EXTREMLY PUTRID schedule adherence of the 403 bus!]
The ones with two cars were full, but the single-cars were NYC like[packed in like sardines]. During the run from Trenton, I noticed that the schedule used 16 out of the 20 car fleet on 14 trains [12 single cars, 2 2-car trains].
I have some observations:
1] They better get better signaling in Camden at Haddon Ave. that is an accident waiting to happen thanks to the idiot motorists. That was the second time I was on a train that could have hit some idiot driver, two weeks ago a RiverLINE train I was on almost hit a 18 wheeler making a illegal turn at Haddon and MLK.
2] Some of these people need to take their time with the ticket machines. The nitwits always come to the station at the last minute then spazz out when the machines take too long to spit out the ticket.
3] I think NJT needs to get more cars [about 7 to 10 more cars] to give them some breathing room and run more 2-car trains. The trips I was on the cars were PACKED TIGHTLY.
4] With the events going on, the line has proved its mettle, the ones who rode to the Tweeter Center got to their seats while traffic was backed up onto and along I-676, those people lost out on some choice lawn seats!
5] I would like to congratulate the manager who made the smart decision to keep the line running late, especially today! Maybe there's hope for these people yet, and maybe they will get Conrail to push back their schedule so the line can run late every night.
This is good news. I never would have suspected those small towns to support the RiverLine but I was wrong. In fact, I thought once the novelty wore off, all those folks would go right back to their cars. It's good to hear the RiverLine is packed which explains why you don't hear the anti-rail crowd talking about all the empty trams going to Trenton!
Can you imagine if there was a Mall like Newport center right by the acquarium?
Give it some time - I'm positive there'll be some kind of commercial development ALL AROUND that place!
I'm very glad to hear about how well the RiverLine is doing! Let's hope it stays this way...
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
IAWTP.
Riding 1 particular consist on 15 June, from Trenton to Tweeter, the lead car
of our consist was OOS "due to vomit" and this subjected all geese to be sardined
in the SECOND of the two-car tram.... at the start of the PM rush.
After dumping at Tweeter, the set ran light back to the yard....
More cars (and more trams) would indeed be a GOOD move...
we surely left
a handful of geese behind on that trip.. and they were NONE too happy about
having to wait another 30.
Click to listen
How can you defend C/R's now? You can't even have audible manual announcements on even the best of the subway's PA systems.
Lucklily I rotated my mic to be perpendicular to the speaker so that it wouldn't be destroyed by the full blast of the C/R's audio assault...
Da Hui
Now if NYCTA could institute a more flexible and accurate system, then I'd have no problem with the systems. It is inexcusable that NYCTA cannot have their automated announcement system completely up to date with the operations of the actual system. I'm not talking programing in every little GO, but when changes happen months or even years after service to certain parts has been terminated or changed, then something is fucked up.
What? BBD and KRC aren't the ones that update the announcements, the MTA does. Increases in the number up AAS updates has very noticible since the vendors were removed from the process
--You have trains annoucing transfers that disaappeared a while back,
Which train? All R142 and R142a cars have the latest AAS software
--you have trains which merely squeal
Where?
-- or which announce completely wrong lines and stations.
Has a train done this in the past 3 years? Most of the time, if the Automated announcements system is screwed up, it's the C/R's fault for being too lazy to correct it, and in the case of the "stuck" R142A 6 trains, it's because of C/R's which leave the terminal without setting their signs up correctly- Again, an example of C/R laziness.
There is one c/R on the B express that is supper
He is the guy who says Loooooooooooooong Island Railroad at atlantic ave
There are some good C/Rs out there. IT's just that those who continually fantasize about the ladies doing the automated announcements fail to explore the other subway lines to hear what they're missing. They're just getting too accustomed to the mostly guaranteed perfection they hear.
The only thing I still have a gripe with is that the majority of C/R's still make the station announcement after the doors are open.
Replace () with <>
Like This:
You may look at my source code to see how I did it.
(Nice Pics BTW)
Elias
To see pics, view post before this one.
Nice image posting Elias.
Both of u have a great 4th of July.
-Chris
Trying to save money, Metro has halved the size of its late-night trains, forcing riders to sprint along the platform, only to find they can't get on the overcrowded cars. Here are some suggestions for other ways the Metro system can raise or save money:
• Discontinue all Monday service after 7 p.m. Come on -- who goes out on Monday nights?
• Each seat will easily accommodate more passengers if people will sit on each other's laps. Raise revenue for Metro -- and make a new friend!
• At Metro Center station, install a dunking booth where, for $1 a throw, customers can try to plunge Metro Board Chairman Robert J. "No Problem" Smith into a tank of frigid water. Hell, make it $2 a throw. People will pay it.
• Problem: In cold weather, bulky coats reduce the number of passengers who can be shoehorned onto a train. Solution: $1 per trip Winter Surcharge.
• After waiting 40 minutes on the platform for a train, would-be passengers grow faint with hunger. Why not stock otherwise-useless Metro clerk booths with an array of snacks, to be sold at exorbitant markups?
• Turn off the air conditioning. Oh, wait, they've already done that.
• Metro should begin referring to passengers as "applicants." Every time a rider actually manages to cram into a car, he or she will feel like a winner!
• Why should your heftier neighbors get to occupy more space for the same fare? Charge by the pound!
• Reserve "premium seats" in each car. Then follow the example of the Redskins by charging a 10-year seat license fee, a parking fee (be sure to ban walking to the station) and a mandatory catering fee.
• Stop running trains to Virginia until they remember who won the Civil War.
• End royalty payments to the "Doors closing" lady.
• Look at all that wasted space near the ceiling! Go the Full Tokyo and install luggage racks to stow children and post-concert crowd surfers.
• Stop trying to fix the escalators: Lay off the maintenance crews, stop buying new parts, freeze them in place and call them "stairs." Which they are most of the time, anyway.
• Put a shingled roof thing over the recycling containers and relabel them "wishing wells."
• Open a bar car. Then you can really pack 'em in.
• So far, guidance from mass-transit officials in Bucharest and Calcutta has worked perfectly. Continue to model Metro's system on theirs.
-- Peter Kaufman,
with staff contributions
• At Metro Center station, install a dunking booth where, for $1 a throw, customers can try to plunge Metro Board Chairman Robert J. "No Problem" Smith into a tank of frigid water. Hell, make it $2 a throw. People will pay it.
Make it battery acid, and people will pay ten bucks a throw.
• Problem: In cold weather, bulky coats reduce the number of passengers who can be shoehorned onto a train. Solution: $1 per trip Winter Surcharge.
Make everyone ride naked, with clothing carried in separate baggage cars. You'll get even more people in a car, plus no worried about concealed weapons/bombs etc.
• Stop running trains to Virginia until they remember who won the Civil War.
Who won? Could someone remind me?
• Stop trying to fix the escalators: Lay off the maintenance crews, stop buying new parts, freeze them in place and call them "stairs." Which they are most of the time, anyway.
Just hire NYC escalator-repair workers.
Just hire NYC escalator-repair workers.
That would cost more then what WMATA is spending now.
John
That worked for years at SEPTA!
Are the R-30's going to Nimco or Mexico (like the M-1's)?
til next time
til next time
-Stef
Bumpy ride though which is why it wasn't done often, but it can be done.
On the IRT side, anything from the R17 on except the R142/R142A can run together. Even the R62 and R62A are really just better made R17s.
:-) Andrew
Photo by The 795 aka - Trevor Logan
I don't believe the 2 R16's at CI are operable. However, the museum R16 should be, as should the museum R11. Find a working R30 pair, and we got one heck of fantrip!
til next time
Even if they aren't going on the rails, I'm willing to settle with the Museum R16-Museum R11 pairing. Enough of the Arnines!
til next time
Do you like talking out of your ass? If you don't know something to be true, DON'T SAY IT.
Meanwhiles, you still havent answered why the Museum R30 cannot operate sans mate??
That's his perrogative. But he's hinting that what I've been told is wrong. Given the source, I feel comfortable that it isn't. I hope it is, because that means there might be hope for 3184 after all.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
And yes they did. I rode them on the (LL) back in the 80's. Two classes of graffiti scarred equipment with different seating and railfan windows. You had to have been there.
Bill "Newkirk"
Since that contract is with the Long Island Rail Road, I doubt it.
What about #3005 ?
Maybe P.S. 248 to replace that R-16 ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, the other two 3 cars sets *are* functional.
Come back to the (C), R110b!!!
-Julian
I'm guessing it's a B car...
\\Julian
If it doesn't work then you can see it at the Riders Diaries topic here
http://www.straphangers.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000168;p=1#000002
I'm not really sure, but it could be a B-car
\\Julian
avid
avid
-Broadway Buffer
Have a good Fourth
GOOD LUCK ON HUNGRY CHARLES HARDY 2 MORROW MY COUSIN
Unfortunately, it isn't an express and it hasn't been going to Queens, but it is an interesting idea. Back in the day, you had the Fulton-Nassau Express for those from north Brooklyn to get to Coney Island. A G express could pick up people in north Brooklyn and the Queens Blvd corridor and then rocket them down to the shore. It just might work.
D/M/Q via Brighton
B/W via West End!
Robert
Da Hui
F rerouted to Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts
G replaces F between Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts and Stillwell Av
Weekend, 12:01 AM Sat to 5 AM Mon, Jul 10 - 12, 17 - 19 & 24 - 26-Click here for details.
Have a happy 4th of July!
-Chris
Wouldent it be a better G/O to use the B's 60 Foot cars and do the chrystie st thing instead?
My question is why don't they simply route the Brooklyn D to the Broadway BMT?
Some info: the C/K lines are really one line just that after Layfayette St. they split off from each other to become seperate lines [8th Av local is of this sequence: E,C,E,K]
C - Culver rush hour express
E - Culver local {ie: replaces the F}
K - speaks for itself
V - to Lefferts [till 1am as shuttle service runs from Lefferts to Euclid and would also mean the G would be dealyed from entering Queens Blvd from 9pm to 11pm]
A - to Far Rockaway all times
That's mostly it otherwise it's the same as the current map
Have a happy 4th of July!
-Chris
Ah I think I reailized the problem - the .GIF was supposed to be uppercased - damn these uploads and minute details
Anyways it should be ok now unless GeoCities is shut down for the millionth time
Until they put the third track into service, Bronxville and Tuckahoe have the distinction of being 2-track stations with 21 revenue trains passing through in the peak hour, plus another 4 or 5 non-revenue trains. Does any 2-track station in the US (say, on the LIRR) have more commuter trains than that?
3rd rail is not installed yet.
Temporary platforms at Bronxville and Tuckahoe covering the new track have to be removed.
I see three things contributing to this being a lengthly project. First of all, they're doing it with a small crew, probably to keep the cost down.
Secondly, they're doing it without any impact on rush hour service. Bronxville and Tuckahoe have some very long trains (including the only 12 car train I've see on all of MNCR) - you can't fill those up fast enough to avoid delaying trains behind unless you have elaborate temporary platforms.
And third, presumably to get community support in the first place, they only work one 8 hour shift.
And if I recall hearing, the 2nd place was some japanese lady with I think 35 hot dogs.
If you mean the chinese lady, that was said on tv, but I think it was for the last one, not this one.
If you mean rail wise, yes they are. Why you think they got multiple modes of transport intergrated into 1 network, with different providers. Face it, there better. Heck, they got something called Passnet which allows entry to verious systems meantioned. And I think Suica does the same.
Just imagine NY getting its first Maglev system, that'd be awesome.
Exactly.
And the unified system I heard of. The JR system uses iO cards, and I think the unified system is also around the iO name, iU? :P
Source
I was talking about this year's contest though.
You can help by reading. You dont say something, miss what I said already, and say you cant help it. It makes no sence whatsoever. I read everything in a topic so I atleast know whats going on.
And I'm not supposed to? :/
"Eric "Badlands" Booker, a 6-foot-4, 400-pound subway conductor from Long Island who came in fifth with 27 dogs, said he and the other competitive eaters were determined to unseat the Japanese. "
Now this is the kind of guy who should win these competitions...
And, I brought this thread back on topic!
www.forgotten-ny.com
If they did, all contestants would probably eat half of what they normally would. I guess soaking the buns makes the hots dogs go down faster and not to choke on a dry bun.
I did notice the Japanese guy was dropping parts of the saturated buns, so he didn't really eat the entire hot dog.
burp !
Bill "Newkirk"
We went to a restaurant in Amarillo, Texas, while driving cross country a couple of years ago that offered a free 72 ounce steak dinner if you could eat it in an hour. The only hitch is you have to eat it on stage in front of everybody with a timer going and you must eat the whole dinner, not just the steak. We were told that the biggest truck drivers driving through rarely win it. There is a 1 in 7 success ratio and size or gender usually has nothing to do with it. Here is the contest page on the restaurant's website.
Jimmy ;)
And Hebrew National isn't nearly as big as a Nathan's. o.o
Bill "Newkirk"
The returning (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
David
"Eric "Badlands" Booker, a 6-foot-4, 400-pound subway conductor from Long Island who came in fifth with 27 dogs, said he and the other competitive eaters were determined to unseat the Japanese."
lemme know i can make ya a zip file of them
http://www.htmlcenter.com
go there then at the end of the url put -- /jetta/train.zip
enjoy :)
shoot me now
better yet - take my bve for a week
hehehe sorry!!!
The observation -- while driving on the Cross Island Pkwy yesterday morning, I noticed a set of M7's at Belmont Park. Upon checking the schedules, they are running a couple of trains from Penn to Queens Village (where riders for Hempstead branch stations can change for busses) during the reverse peak. Since these trains can't then get back west (without tying up the main line doing a reverse move) and can't go further east (two tracks both going west on the Main, and one track going west on the Hempstead), they pull them off into Belmont -- I guess until rush hour is over.
The question -- With single track operation from Bellerose east, they apparently aren't able to clear space at Hempstead station (since they can't send trains back west). As a result a couple of rush hour trains were eliminated for the summer and then -- at the end of the rush hour -- there is a train that ends its run at Garden City. My question is -- what becomes of this train? Do they send it back west (there appears to be enough time to send it west with perhaps a follower or two before the next eastbound) or do they pull it east onto the section of the Garden City Secondary that has a third rail?
CG
He demonstrated a "rip" in the transfer and said don't let them do that!
I think I was hassled for no reason. I did nothing wrong, as far as I know.
Chuck Greene
R-32.
Stay tuned....
Chuck Greene
But let us know what was up, something about you're story makes it sound like a common scam.
It does seem very odd though...I'd say it may be a depot thing, but the R runs from Frankford, not Midvale.
Transfer
Passengers should purchase a transfer if their one-way trip traveling in the same direction on a bus, subway, or trolley requires more than one route.
Transfers are $0.60. A transfer ticket must be purchased when you board the first vehicle of your trip from either the Operator (for buses and trolleys) or the Cashier (for the Market-Frankford, Broad Street, and Subway-Surface Lines).
A re-transfer can be purchased for an additional $0.60. Only two transfers are permitted per each one-way trip.
Transfers and re-transfers are not valid for trips near the passenger’s point of origin.
This still doesn't tell me what a proper re-transfer is...
On a side note, TT coach 874 is parked in the side yard with all the rotting to be scrapped Neoplans at FTC. The Neos have had their fareboxes removed and "SEPTA" over the front door blacked out with spray paint.
I know this should go on Bus-Talk!
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
A day of misconceptions and errors for me.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
R-32.
And if it was LA, you'd be laying on the ground while they beat you with their Mag-Lites...
That's news to me. Read the instructions on the back. I know I still got one laying around but not sure where, but transfers are not valid without coupon on bottom. The punched holes(besides shouldn't have 3 of them punched, unless tha'ts something new), mean that's the bus you came from. If i take an 84 bus to the 58(or 14), the 84 will be punched. I transfer. The driver trashes it and gives me a new one. If you keep that transfer and get off to get on the 24, at either bustleton or the boulevard(not ftc) and i hand the driver a transfer from teh 84, i'd be kicked off the bus for non-payment and theft of services(jailable in other states).
In other words, I believe you were set-up, but luckily you were let through. But there's something about that whole situation that either sounds fishy, or there's a problem with what those drivers are doing. Something ain't right.
Atleast the SEPTA clerk let him through the gates of the holy rail.
Regards,
Chuck Greene
Or....... maybe the driver was nearing the end of his rounds
and ran OUT of stock paper transfers??
Retransfer:
Retransfers will be valid up to 1 hour from the time cut on the face of transfer upon proper payment of fare.
The little stub piece says:
COUPON (DATE)
-------------
One Transfer
Hope this helps you out.
Thanks, Chris.
Chuck Greene
And punching three routes to one transfer sounds like one of Victory or Southern's blunders, not Comly's...
Um, you wrote "Thanks, Chris", are you refering to you as Chris, since your next post doesnt say that.
I aint Chris if thats what you meant, I'm Steven.
And glad I could help.
Next time, , If I take that routing from FTC, I'm going to use the "R", and then the "65", transferring at Wissahicken Transfer Ctr.
I'm going to start off giving the "R" driver a token and 60 cents and get a regular (with coupon attached) transfer. Then I'll do the normal thing, give the transfer to the 65 driver. No problems this way and no BS!
Thanks, everybody, for your help.
Chuck Greene
Ben F. Schumin :-)
From: Charles Greene
To: BILL Septa Driver
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 7:09 AM
Subject: Re-Transfers
Hi Bill,
How are you! When you ask for a re-transfer and pay your 60 cents, doesn't the operator rip off the coupon at the bottom and give you your transfer back? YES
So the answer is YES.
Case closed!
Chuck Greene
Another thing is the rulig that a transfer is only good to go for a maximum of three vehicles... well, suppose you need to get from Oxford Valley Mall to Pottstown or Royersford? That's the 14, then MFL, then 100, then 93 or 99... OOPS, you can only go 14/MFL/100 on one transfer. 14/R/124 (125)/99 is just as many routes and takes longer, and 14/R/27/98/93? Forget it...
I KNOW most of you would say toss a Regional Rail Line into the mix, but who really wants to go OUT of their way deeper into Bucks County to get the R7 or R3, and then wait for up to an hour, where within that hour, they could be close to Frankford Terminal? And then have potentially ANOTHER hour to wait for an R6 train into Norristown...
Getting from Newtown to anywhere that is NOT Center City is just as bad without the R8 around... That's 130 to 14, 20, or 58 to MFL... you've expired the transfer's use, so let's hope you didn't need to get to Whitman Plaza, Springfield Mall, or anywhere the MFL won't drop you. Mind you, Pier 70 is exempt, since the 25 waits at FTC, but that's about it.
SEPTA's got this complex that anyone needing more than three routes for one trip would be better of with a Transpass or TrailPass. They apparently kow little of the cracked infrastructure that is their system at times.
Chuck
Demand must exist for such service before it can be considered by NJT, who go where they are wanted (as they often remind people who write to them). Not to mention, the tracks are not owned by NJT or NJDOT (IIRC) south of Winslow, making it that much harder to restart service. Further, there is Cape May Seashore Lines, whose existence would face being trampled out were NJT to restore Philly-Cape May passenger rail.
The Cape May Seashore Lines would love to run passengers between Cape May and NJT's Hammonton station.
If it happens, it won't happen soon.
Also, CMSL has expressed great interest in extending their line far enough as to let CMSL passengers transfer for the NJT ACL to either Atlantic City or Philadelphia. Whether this is a reasonable proposal, however, I cannot say.
As for Wildwood and Ocean City, forget it. Most of the Ocean City branch, including the swing bridge over the inland waterway, is gone, as is the entire branch between Wildwood Junction and Wildwood. Parts of the rights-of-way in Ocean City and Wildwood have been redeveloped, as well.
The car is apparently an old retired LIRR car still in gray paint with a blue stripe. It still looked fairly good although rust rot was visable.
The MTA LIRR herald was still quite clear on the car side, but no number was visable. There was the number 918 in stick-on numbers located on the end, just above the anticlimber.
wayne
I will try to find out.
Mark
Most of the WMATA cars were or are capable of traveling at speeds in excess 90 MPH. The Rohr cars when delivered were tested to speeds over 90 MPH. I was on one doing 81 MPH in June of 1975 before the system opened. Back in the mid 1980s there were some changes in the civil maximum speed limits to allow revenue trains to operate as high as 80 MPH on some section of the system. And many did in regularly scheduled service. These maximum speed limits have sense been lowered back to the original maximum of 75 MPH.
So that answer to flxiblemetro question is, capable of 80 MPH, yes. In normal daily regularly scheduled service no.
John
wayne
tho sometimes i think its too fast - esp crossing i85
Arthur Thomas
Broad Street Subway cars regularly go to 64 MPH on the express. I think I've seen them go a bit higher on a downhill, but 64 MPH otherwise seems tops.
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy
Yes. It continues through Washington en route to Phillipsburg. In Washington, you can still see where the original DL&W main line turned northwest towards Belvidere, Manuka Chunk and Portland, PA (where the bridge across the Delaware still stands). The old Washington station is located where the two lines diverge (follow Railroad Avenue south from state route 57).
Extending service to Phillipsburg on this line was part of the NJ Transit "2020 Wish List" of some years ago. In fact, the NJT station at Phillipsburg was built by the DL&W and used as a union station between the DL&W and the CNJ.
being we have been discussing the Lackawanna Cut-Off service proposal as of late
Understood. IIRC, there is an existing rail route between NJ and Scranton via the Poconos; via the DL&W Bangor & Portland branch and into Easton.
• At Metro Center station, install a dunking booth where, for $1 a throw, customers can try to plunge Metro Board Chairman Robert J. "No Problem" Smith into a tank of frigid water. Hell, make it $2 a throw. People will pay it.
Make it battery acid, and people will pay ten bucks a throw.
• Problem: In cold weather, bulky coats reduce the number of passengers who can be shoehorned onto a train. Solution: $1 per trip Winter Surcharge.
Make everyone ride naked, with clothing carried in separate baggage cars. You'll get even more people in a car, plus no worried about concealed weapons/bombs etc.
• Stop running trains to Virginia until they remember who won the Civil War.
Who won? Could someone remind me?
• Stop trying to fix the escalators: Lay off the maintenance crews, stop buying new parts, freeze them in place and call them "stairs." Which they are most of the time, anyway.
Just hire NYC escalator-repair workers.
Just hire NYC escalator-repair workers.
That would cost more then what WMATA is spending now.
John
That worked for years at SEPTA!
Did any (dumb as nails) Gun Hill employee recently trollope into 100st (i think), to continue their campaign of poor taste, or is deferred maintainance sweeping the TA by force?
Seriously, who expects this type of crap on a Manhattan bus...
On a slightly better note, I had the pleasure (Yes, that's right) of boarding 5396 last night on the BX12. Immediately apparent from the outside of the bus was that it actually had its OEM interior numbers intact, and unscathed (which is very very unusual on Gun Hill bus). All the lights worked, INCLUDING those above the turntable (that's right too). The bells all worked, and they actually lit up so that you can see them! Don't freak out just yet, there's more. The bus was actually fairly clean, and the seats weren't too dirty, for a GH bus (ie: you didn't have to worry too much about what you were sitting in). It seemed mechanically fine, the retarder was functioning to spec, and was not jerking the bus while making a LOUD liquid swooshing noise ( take a quarter filled bottle of water and shake it violently, and you'll get the idea) as many other GH artics do (since their retarders are just absolutely fucked).
To top it off, the bus smelled quite good thanks to the B/O who had a little car freshner on his rearview mirror.
5396 is what GH's buses should all be like, but as we all know they aren't anywhere close to that. Oh well...
Rubber tires, concrete and diesel engines does not equal subtalk.
That smell isn't particularly enticing to most...
To top it off, the bus smelled quite good thanks to the B/O
Also: Why'd you post it on SubTalk and not BusTalk???????????
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
wayne
Da Hui
From http://www.geofftech.co.uk/tube/
Speaking of LU Maps, any sites have old LU Maps? I found 2 links, but was wondering if there was more?
Try searching Google for 'London Underground Maps'
I just wish they had a old LU Map showing the old line to King William Street Terminal. Or the line to Brill/Verney Junction. :/
I can find you a Metropolitan Railway map showing the section beyond Rickmansworth:
From http://www.metroland.nildram.co.uk/amersham/metro/tickets.htm
Annoyingly I can't find a high-res version of this map.
And o-0 at the 2nd link, I gotta see if I can find that in a larger size, thats one I didnt see before. Thanks for the link.
Hopefully that will give you Brill & Verney Junction :-)
Have you seen this one?
All this reminded me to ask the LT Museum if they got photos of the old Church Siding Station, since theres no photos I found of it, and it seems to be a old old station on the Brill Branch. (Though the LT Museum charges 10Pds per photo after the first 4-5 free photos) :/
Hey, I just hit a idea, since they wont send me anymore photos for free without paying for any upcoming requests on my end, think you can ask them for photos since you havent before(I dont think you have anyways)? You wouldnt have to pay, and neither will I. :P Think you can do that?(Pics of Church Siding Station or Verney Junction Station).
I see they've left off Queen's Loo. :o>
wayne
It hasn't been the same since Deayton was sacked. Having said that, it will never be as funny again as it was in the dying years of the Major government. It also helped that in those days the royal family were making total something-or-others out of themselves in public with an alarming frequency.
Heck the London map looks like it could be easily adapted to fit New York if someone had enough time and comedic ability;)
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming July 16th
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming July 16th
http://www.newdeal.feri.org/library/s_39_33.htm
Matt
2Bangkok.com - The subway is OPEN!
Note the actual straps along the ceiling of the subway.
My understanding is that this is in addition to the existing elevated train that is already covered on nycsubway.org.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Does it use turnstiles?
C'mon tell me you didn't see that one coming... ;)
I have a friend there who will be riding it in the next few weeks, and will take pictures for me. And I'll be there in November for a "official" nycsubway.org review.
With the recent full service restoration on the Manhattan Bridge, does anyone know what's the top speed for the B and D Trains on the DASH (34th to West 4th). It it like it was back in the day?!!
R-32.
R-32.
~Former T/O for the NYCTA, BVE version.
BTW, what line and equipment did you have the pleasure of pushing; and what's this 'BVE' I keep hearing about?
R-32.
It's really horrible though as they struggle up that hill and you lose so much speed!
-Broadway Buffer
Don't believe everything you hear.
R-32.
-Broadway Buffer
NYC has to be the slowest subway system in the country, even Philly and Chicago are faster, and their infrastructure is just as old, if not older. Philadelphia's trolleys can go faster in their tunnel than the NYCTA subways do!
R-32.
R-32.
Why does it accelerate like that, just before entering 42nd street?
-Julian
Because the train is going downhill.
I've done that 155-161 stretch plenty of times and haven't really experienced above a 35-37ish
Hey, how fast would the F be if there was no Roosevelt Island Station and it had a direct run from 63rd/Lex and 21st-Qnsbridge? Would you say around 65?
David
You should try the L through the 14th Street tube during single-track operation, especially when 1st Avenue and 3rd Avenue are closed.
I agree, that Joralemaon St. tube is a real flyer; especially downtown... 60 easy on an r-62...a [ahem] Kawasaki. I'm sure the 142's won't even breathe hard doing 70. Those 142's are actually quite fast. You'd never realize it at first because they don't have much drama at speed - much like the 75 footers; or that characteristic whine that grew with speed in the past. Anyway, if those timers were on, they sure weren't working any time my train flew through that tunnel.
When do they single track the L? Does this have something to do with the CBTC?
R-32.
Seriously, folks, the Joralemon Street Tunnel is timed at 35 MPH all the way down to the bottom of the tube in each direction. Northbound, it's timed at 30 MPH going UPhill to protect the junction south of Bowling Green. Pre-R-142/A cars won't be able to do better than 24 or so climbing out of the tube in either direction with the field shunting disabled (R-142 and R-142A cars don't have and don't need field shunting).
David
What field shunting is this, and what is it responsible for? I'm dying to be educated here:-)
R-32.
David
http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/tract-01.html
Goes into it ALL in nice, easy to understand terms ... it'll save dredging through the archives ... :)
But the ONLY thing that wires meant back in arnine days was "Smock condition" ... "SMOCK! SMOCK!" ... (google "Steve Allen") anything else didn't matter. Tripper up, tripper down. Yellow or better, wrap it. Yellow STILL in the cab window as you passed it, *DUMP!* Heh.
So how's the "arnine project" coming, bro? Are we THERE yet? Heh.
R-32.
ITS NOT 70. ITS 45. THE SPEEDOMETER ON THE R62/R62A'S ARE BROKEN/INCORRECT FOR THE MOST PART !!!!!
Since the R-62s are now permanently arranged in 5-car sets, it is entirely likely that the speedometers in the mid-set cars are no longer being calibrated (after all, who needs to look at them besides railfans?). Perhaps someone here who works in a maintenance shop will tell us for certain.
David
-Broadway Buffer
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
R-32.
David
Your FYI is wrong. The fastest I seen them go is probabl6 60mph on a good day. And Untion Square was a drunk motorman who had a train do 40mph in a 10mph zone.
Whoever told you that 70mph can be reached by a R62 (or any other subway car with the acception of the R44 and R46) is wrong, and I'd suggest you check your FYI's.
Well in that case I beat that record! Because a couple days ago, my speedometer was reading 73 mph while we were stopped in a station and passengers were getting on and off the train.
Now dem's be skills!!!
R-32.
-Broadway Buffer
And thank you for nicely correcting me unlike some idiot w/ the screen name of Chap11ChooChoo who acted like a total idiot just because I said that it's unsafe for trains to go over 60. & what a small mistake to get crazy about.
-Broadway Buffer
R-32.
David
avid
I've got one for ya; although it doesn't quite match your bushwhacker ride through Howard Beach. Round about 1984, I got on an N train at Times Square [I think] that must have been a hybrid overhaul. As soon as the doors closed and the the motorman pulled that controller into parallel, that train started off with a "whooooop" sound from the motors under the floor ( the same sound the r-46's and 62's make, but never made before, and never made again). I knew right away this thing meant business! Sure enough, that train went galloping through 49th St. with its hair on fire - making that high pitched whine with speed [that they used to make]. It was too bad that we didn't have any more stops to skip after 49th St., because we were boogeying!
That's not all. During the ride I looked at the interior, and said "Why does this interior look different?". This train - or at least the car I was in - had different lenses on strip lights on the ceiling. They had those frosted lenses that eventually made into GOH r-33's - in place of the regular ones. I don't remember picking up any other details, but with the extra performance and all, the cars were obviously tinkered with. Though this was not the GOH specification at all - they still had the straphangers and look all the same externally. I wasn't on that train long and forgot exactly where I got off.
R-32.
-Julian
Just a Though
R-32.
avid
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/26741.htm
----------------
> Gee..There must be a lot of liberals out there. All I know is
>that Mr. Moore is a #1 asshole. (friend's signature lines deleted)
Ayup ... and you can count me as one of them as far as THIS election's concerned. You remember my background in journalism and digging for facts, not rhetoric. I didn't KNOW that Bush KNEW that the first plane had hit BEFORE he went to that school. The look on his face when they told him about the SECOND plane said it all. Now that I know that, decided to dig a WHOLE lot deeper. Every FACT that was presented in the film was PROVEN true. Forget about fathead's opinions. The FACTS are true.
So I did a little digging at the Department of State's file room (Carlyle Group IS a New York Corporation, it's all there on Washington Avenue) ... true, true, true and true. I've talked to Navy pilots about the "angle of attack" when both planes flew into the towers. You CANNOT fly straight on a 35 degree bank. Those planes are computer-controlled and the computer will NOT let you do that without taking a turn. In fact, only Top Guns can do that in fighter jets and even there it's extremely difficult to keep a plane in straight flight at that degree of banking. It exceeds the control surface's ability to prevent. Terrorists on flight sims can't do that. It takes wads of experience. Ask ANY pilot.
EVERYONE had advance knowledge of Flight 77 coming towards DC for 40 minutes.Yet, there was a complete defensive stand-down. Interceptors from distant Langley AFB took off late and flew at subsonic speeds to arrive 5 minutes too late. Planes from nearby Anacostia Naval Air Station, Andrews Air Force Base, and the 73rd Air Wing at Atlantic City, NJ never took off. Scramblers in the air already at 9:05 from Otis AFB turned to target Flight 77 and were called off, despite a formal shoot-down order from Bush/Cheney "moments after" the 9:05 crash -- which had ended any speculation of accident or coincidence or hijacking motives. By that moment they undeniably knew in advance what was coming and where it was headed. Local news announced that DC was the destination. Surface-to-air missiles at the White House and Pentagon remained sheathed in their silos. Despite the planes having turned off communications with ground control towers and their identifying transponders (which also shuts off their own near-range radar screens to avoid mid-air collisions), they were clearly visible to all external radars, they were being tracked by NORAD and DC towers, and they were somehow being navigated directly to their target. How were they allowed to come into the most restricted air space in the world with no challenge or defense? That is the question that answers both when Bush knew in advance and begs any rational response.
Between the film you obviously haven't seen (pirated copies are available if you don't want to give piggo the bucks, SEE it) and a whole bunch of other information I've gotten, it seems to be a reasonable but unproven assumption that *WE* attacked the WTC just like the old Reichstag episode. REMEMBER, it was Cheny and Rumsfeld that CREATED Bin Laden. Who did we attack after a half-hearted, worthless effort in Afghanistan? We attacked Saddam. I don't see Osama's head on a stick. :(
But hey, I don't expect ya to listen or consider - but I'm working my butt off for "regime change" ... and I don't care if it's Kerry, Nader or Lyndon LaRouche ... THESE guys have GOT to go. No offense ... but SEE the movie, see the big lies we're being told, being lead around by the rings in our noses by the spinmeisters. I lived (as you did) in the days of the Soviet Union. *THAT* was REAL fear - a whole nation vaporized in a couple of minutes ... are the towelheads THAT much more formidable that our leaders insist that we perpetually cower in fear with all these so-called "alerts?" Or is there another motive?
Have you ever read the "Doomsday Act" which the repubs passed into law a couple of months ago? General Tommy Franks stated in November 2003 that the US will suspend the Constitution and impose martial law if there's another "terrorist" attack. Considering the mountains of evidence that 9/11 was an "inside job," it is plausible that the Bush regime will stage another phony incident as a pretext to suspend what remnants of democracy we still have (or at least scare us with the threat up until Election Day). George W. Bush was not joking when he stated, immediately after the Supreme Court's Election in 2000, "If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." "Homeland Security" Secretary Tom Ridge told CBS News on December 22, 2003 "If we simply go to red [alert] ... it basically shuts down the country." This would transform the United States into a military dictatorship under "Emergency" administration. And for WHAT? TOWELHEADS? :(
Nope, I was raised to be an AMERICAN, I *refuse* to allow this nation to become a repeat of the Soviet Union. THESE assclowns have *GOT* to go. Period.
As I said in the beginning, you and I have BOTH been through "da Russkies" ... THAT coulda been a REALLY bad day. And still, somehow we survived that all and went on with our lives. Why? Because we had LEADERS ... "there is NOTHING to FEAR but BEER itself!" And we trusted them to take care of business, and they in turn didn't go for face time in the cameras with a perpetual cavalcade of "LOOK OUT! There's a terrorist and he's gunning for YOU." You're in law enforcement. Ask yourself the most important question ... "who NEEDS to know?" Is it proper procedure to go into a situation and blare over the loudspeakers, "there's a man on the second floor with a bomb ... be vigilant?" YOU know what happens - the building empties out, people falling over one another, shitstains on the sidewalk and the PERP gets AWAY (if he doesn't shoot'em all up first) ... right?
These "alerts" need to go to first responders, not Joe Beercan. Where's the "public service announcements" saying, "if you see someone in a winter coat in August, call a cop." or "if you spot someone who's fidgety and looking all around and they're clutching a briefcase in a strange manner, call a cop." THOSE are suitable warnings for a public that's a bunch of morons, GUARANTEED to do something stupid when push comes to show. No? So what's WITH all these "terrorist event likely at YOUR house, and have a nice day." Huh? C'MON ... ANY cop can spot something that don't smell right. No?
And if our "leaders" had BALLS (Cheney's been in a spiderhole since the election, nevermind 9/11) they'd solve this PRONTO. Here's how that you WON'T hear out of Rush Gasbag (has he kicked his habit yet? heh) ... a REAL leader would give a speech like this:
"My fellow Americans. We're a nation that is BETTER than living in fear, and we're NOT going to let the terrorists get in another sucker punch again. I'm putting the Arab nations on notice. *ONE* more attack, anywhere, any time, any place will be met with the most SEVERE force. In the event of ANY other attack, our nuclear missiles have been aimed at the following targets: Mecca, 50 megatons. Medina, 50 megatons. Tehran, 20 megatons. Damascus, 50 megatons. Beirut, 20 megatons. Amman, 20 megatons. Riyahd, the granddady, 100 megatons. And the Dome of the Rock, four bunker busters so as to not disturb the Wailing Wall. We will turn your sands to GLASS so you'll keep slipping and falling down as we take your oil as the price of your terrorism."
Wanna see this this end FAST? Any LEADER who had the balls to say to THEM what we said to the SOVIETS could COUNT on the fuckers rounding up the Wahabbi so fast their heads will spin. If it's a RELIGIOUS war they want, then let's just put it this way, as we ALWAYS HAVE up until Shrub, "we'll take you OUT." America gets VERY little oil from there, if we had to, the price would be bearable. We'd have ALLIES too since it would potentially impact them more than us. The shit WOULD end. If only our leaders had balls. :(
But not to worry, wrist ain't gone limp ... but these assholes have GOT to go. Since 9/11, THEY'VE been doing the work of the terrorists themselves. And if you doubt me, WATCH them ramp it up as the election comes on. If I'm wrong, I'll blow ya. Heh. What was it that the terrorists wanted? Ruin our economy AND make us live in fear? And WHO is providing that? :(
Ever spot a coup d'etat when it was happening around you? Remember the old hippie axiom? "Know they enemy. KNOW thyself?" Hmmm ... but that's where I'm coming from - Cheney in a spiderhole and Shrub forever clueless (he's had four years now and hasn't made a coherent sentece YET) ... no, I don't think we can get any lower than that. And Dick Cheney can go f*ck himself. :)
We're BETTER than that, AND we *have* the nukes to back up OUR threat of true terrorism for the other side. Unfortunately, all we have is this Shrub. :(
"Please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only. This is not "WorldPoliticsTalk"!"
Or are you a member of the "truth squad" appointed to quash questioning of "Fearless Leader?" :(
WHERE IS SHRUB on this most PATRIOTIC day? ("we're at war now")
Could it be TRUE that NYC will be attacked AGAIN today? Run for your lives! No Shrub, Not even Mr. "Go do an impossible sex act" ... if we *had* a leader, first of all, he'd be in TOWN. (or at least "number two") *AND* they'd ride the subway to PROVE their "patriotism" ... forgive me if I bristle. Your party is full of it. PROFF today. :(
That's correct. Your reply, however, was a 100% political rant-and-rave and had nothing to do with transit.
Why not leave the Hazmat stuff to the NYFD, who's been doing this for ages, and stick with yelling at pedestrians and writing tickets and shooting 'bad guys', not to mention everything else that moves?
And what is FDNY going to do? Spray water at it?
Seems to me that either department could be equipped to assist victims in such an attack. How about both?
RSTN 1, Stella 0.
Don't shout, it'll make you even more angry. You cock
sucker.
For the fifth time, shut the f*** up."
Sorry David for going off topic, this is the final off-topic you'll see from me. Just wanted to let the rest know, that it IS rstn, since people were wondering at the time.
What ever happened with the (7)/(8) going to Laguardia?
Dylan
Yes indeed; long departed railfans.
Larry, RedbirdR33
A short single-track section shouldn't do any harm, especially one with no stations on it. If you think about it, each of the tracks at TSQ on the 7 are effectively single track sections, with a station stop and a reversing move on them, each of which handles up to 14tph and supposedly in the past up to 18tph. The M train runs nowhere near those frequencies (IIRC it runs about 6 or 7tph max), so there should be no problems with operating such a segment, with the obvious caveat that Manhattan-bound trains get priority, so as not to fnck up the merge at Myrtle/Broadway.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/connectingrailroad/connectingrailroad.html
Sounds good to me.
In any case, the project was one of Giuliani's pet projects, but it fell out of favor once Bloomberg came into office with other priorities. With all of the other subway expansion projects that are being actively built or studied today, it will probably be a long time before any LaGuardia subway project is considered again.
I think the Astoria line extension is better though.
Too bad going under the NIMBYs would be so expensive...
Mark
The M train is going no further north than Metropolitan Avenue. And if it went from there to LGA, I wouldn't use it because of having to go too far south in Manhattan to get it.
Amtrak Train Stopped For Arabic-Looking Graffiti
POSTED: 12:04 am EDT July 4, 2004
UPDATED: 1:46 am EDT July 4, 2004
WASHINGTON -- An Amtrak train bound from Miami to New York was halted in Washington for more than an hour Saturday as authorities investigated a possible threat.
Train 92, the Silver Star, left Miami at 10:30 a.m. Friday. Authorities said a painted message in Arabic was seen at the Orlando station and suggested something would possibly happen in Washington, Local 6 News reported.
Amtrak spokeswoman Vernae Graham confirmed that the graffiti prompted security officials to stop the train when it arrived at Washington's Union Station on Saturday afternoon. However, she could not confirm media reports that the graffiti was a message in Arabic that referred to Washington and the Fourth of July.
More than 160 passengers were taken off the train as canine units inspected the cars.
Nothing suspicious was found, and no one was arrested. Passengers were allowed to reboard the train after about an hour and 20 minutes.
Copyright 2004 by Internet Broadcasting Systems and Local6.com. The Associated Press contributed to this report. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
The loss of the WTC and it's people was a tragic event, and an act of war, but such events, such wars and its related loss of live cannot be prevented. The bad guys will ALWAYS win one here or there. There is NOTHING you or anybody else can do to prevent it.
On the other hand, there is no need to live in constant fear, or to believe that there is an enemy behind every scrawl, behind every camera! This is simply NOT SO, and our lives are diminished by our caving into this enemy.
Live your life in strength and freedom, and not in fear! The Godd Lord will call you, one way or another, all in good time.
Elias
Unfortunately, Bush, Ashcroft, Ridge et al. haven't yet realized that :(
All the more reason to VOTE THEM OUT come November.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Do not assume that a Kerry administration would be any less paranoid. Democratic Presidents often are considered soft on defense, which today encompasses terrorism, and therefore Kerry might find it necessary to prove that he's as tough - in other words, paranoid - as Bush.
I believe that, and have heard that from people in a position to know.
OTOH, it reminds me of what my mother used to say to people who said that you shouldn't be afraid to fly, because "if your time is up, your time is up." Her response: "But what if the pilot's time is up, and I happen to be on the same plane." ;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
R-32.
The Arabic Message probably said
1. Eat at Joe's
2. For a Good Time, Call Jenna (212) xxx-xxx
3. Vote for Bush 2004
Either way I wonder what it really looked like. The train was probably sitting in Hialeah, got tagged, and now people think it's arabic.
There's people who can't tell the difference between arabic, hebrew or russian, I'd like to know if it was really arabic.
From Trains News Wire, July 6:
ORLANDO, Fla. – Graffiti found in the Orlando Amtrak station indicating there would be some sort of “event” in Washington, D.C. on the 4th of July, combined with “an abundance of caution” on Amtrak caused its train No. 92, the Miami-to-New York “Silver Star,” to be stopped Saturday and searched in Washington by FBI agents and Amtrak police, according to Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black.
The Silver Star was purportedly the last train to use the Florida station when the graffiti, at first reported to be in Arabic but later confirmed to be in English, was found. About 160 passengers and crewmembers were taken off the train and interviewed during the search. After an 80-minute delay, the train was allowed to continue on to New York.
Those alphabets look nothing alike. I can understand not knowing the difference between Russian and Greek, or Chinese and Japanese, but that is ridiculous. If a person can't tell the difference between those three, then they clearly don't know what Arabic looks like and therefore why would the jump to the conclusion, upon seeing some writing, that it is Arabic?
1) Can someone explain this oddity?
Also, there were service advisory posters that had a 4 and 5 in red circles.
2) I guess the printer duped the commuters into thinking the 4 and 5 were maybe 7th Av lines at a quick glance?
crashed, crashed, craaaaaaaaaaashed... into a ditch!
You do realize all posters are black, white, and red, right? The notices that is.
If you think you saw a oddity, come to the 7 where all service advisory notices are black/red/white.
I saw the same poster in GCS on 4/5/6 last week.
The red colors on the 4/5 I would think was to indicate "Emergency"
notice... as the text says "this RUSH HOUR work was unavoidable this time"
The red color could imply urgency towards the work being done.
(otherwise i dont expect the interns to notice that err)
Does anybody know why the B would run or was it just a deadhead signed with B?
Michael
Writing from the internet cafe in Coney Island
P.S. Stillwell Terminal look beautiful. How long will it be before the N returns
The N returns to Stillwell next year.
Michael
Washington, DC
About NY Underground, are there any plans to release it on DVD?
I watched it again, and it was just as classical as the first airing.
I watched it again, and it was just as mystical as the first airing.
The 45+ minutes spent at 65th Street was intense... and humid. We coulda --GRILLED-- David for that fan!
Like I said at the Screening, sans DVD, I'm MAAAAAAAD GRATEFUL to Sir Ronnie for the photographs
of the trip.
Or did you mean the batteries?
R-32.
Robert
1. 5001+5004-5003+5002 R68A
2. 2500+2502-2503+2501 R68A
R44, R46 (most cases)
A = even, divisible only by 2
B = A + 1.(odd)
C = A + 3 (odd)
D = A + 2 (even, divisible by 4)
R68 (this was the original R44 and R46 pattern)
A = even, divisible by 4
B = A + 1 (odd)
C = A + 3 (odd)
D = A + 2 (divisible only by 2)
R68A
A = even, divisible only by 2
B = A - 1.(odd)
C = A + 1 (odd)
D = A + 2 (even, divisible by 4).
hope this helps
wayne
He might have been confused with the R68, which starts at 2500-.
The person pulls one storm door open, and the way the opposite one slides to its respective side is by using some gears. As the pulled storm door opens up, there is a gear for that door and there is a gear for the other door. The gear for the pulled door turns the gear for the other door as well as moving its own door, causing both doors to open.
And there ya have it.
Took forever to figure out, but thank you math instruments!!!!!!!!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
til next time
F:CONEY ISLAND
F:63ST/6AV LCL
F:via SEA BEACH
Anyway, I am now at home and will go map hunting shortly. No maps will be available for sale or to be mailed because I am unable to honor such requests. There are no exceptions to this. Sorry. If you wish to inquire about obtaining one of the maps used today, please contact WMATA directly.
http://www.lrta.org/london-wlrt.html#update2
This is the HTML markup of the WMATA document "The WMATA Service Planning Model" .
This document show the results of a study and criteria used to set policies WMATA uses to determine what type of consist to use during various times of the day.
The information in the document shows the reason why running two car trains is not operationally optimal.
John
John
the link I had was:
http://192.168.203.70/smi_web_server/wmata/track_schematic/wmata_track_schematic_nomenclature.htm
Doh !
That’s the IP address of my Apache HTTP server on my LAN. If you had not posted that I had used the wrong URL I would have likely never corrected it. Here is the correct link.
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/track_schematic/wmata_track_schematic_nomenclature.htm
Oh, and by the way,
Thanks
John
F05 should be Navy Yard which you might also notice is missing. I have corrected the error. This is what happens when you don’t have someone proofing your work for these kind of mistakes.
Keep looking. I need all of the help I can get.
Thanks
John
On the printed version that you gave me----You had Farragut North listed as Farragut West..
Mark
I looked over both the 106 mile single sheet version and the 127 mile multi page version. Both have Farragut North labeled as Farragut West.
Before getting some more documentation off the Dulles Corridor Rapid Transit Project web site I noticed that I removed one of the stations from Option T6 that is the preferred alignment through Tyson.
It was corrected in the route listing in the companion document for 127 mile track schematic.
The missing station in the 127 mile multi page version shows the RTU number for the station in the correct order if the station "Tyson Central West (Pike Seven) (M04)" from Option T6 was not there, however if you look at the signal number at the interlockings you will notice that they don’t match RTU numbers. The signal number are labeled as if Tyson Central West (Pike Seven) RTU was still there.
All of The CAD files for the printed versions have been corrected. I will upload the corrected CAD versions to the web tonight to those that have the viewer.
Next time we get together I will make updated printed version available to all that have them.
John
Amazing game by itself, but the Mets winning it sealed the deal!
It appears that nothing is going to save Jose Contreras.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Happy Birthday, Mr. Steinbrenner. The Flushing Express just ran over your cake.
I *like* that one ... by the way, it's pronounced SteinGRABBER. :)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
(welcome back, by the way)
But yeah, where it is and where it works, it's a delight. Sadly, this country's headed in the other direction. :(
Do I detect the smell of sour grapes?
The million dollar team always settling for the cellar or .500 ball swept the multi million dollar team that always wins and never sees the cellar or .500 ball.
You may call it sour grapes, I call it a huge embarrassment !
Bill "Newkirk"
the Mets may have not pitched that much better...but they don't have the lowest ERA in the league for nothing. Now if only the bats would wake up.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Anyways as ticked off as I am that the Yanks lost especially this year's 2nd game [damn ump on that strike 3 call to Posada] The Mets will more or less lose 3 of 4 games to the Phillies, while the Yanks have basically locked up the AL East :-p
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Jeremy
Again, why are you incapable of tipping your cap to a team which flat out beat yours? I've had to do it a lot over the past 7 years.
Bill "Newkirk"
Cubs Win! Cubs Win!
Hmmmm...looks like we have a new terrorist on hand who disguises himself as an all American boy with his canine sidekick, "harmlessly" armed with a pop-cap gun.
I’m seeing red!
Enough. Time to eat!
Wonder what Dominus Beechingus would have to say about this?
After an afternoon at Richmondtown we arrived back at the ferry at 8PM only to be told no boats till 11PM! Rather than be stranded we took 2 buses to Bay Ridge and got the subway back to Penn Station, then the LIRR to Flushing, adding over 2 hours to the trip.
I discovered that because of the fireworks in the proximity of the SOL, they cancelled ferry service for most of the evening. I didn't see any annnouncements of any ferry cancellations on the news or in the papers.
Pure idiocy...
www.forgotten-ny.com
And how does the MTA get involved at all? Are they required to post notices about the issues related to all transportation agencies?
And how does the MTA get involved at all?<<<
I meant the DOT.
And I'm supposed to check the website every time I go out? Why wasn't it the papers? Why didn't the traffic babes mention it on the radio? If the ferry will be out for over 4 hours, that's big news.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I didn't go to SI last year, but I did 2 years ago, and occasionally before that. This was the first time they eliminated service in my memory...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Michael
Washington, DC
Next year there will be no ferry service at all on July 4th. The year after, no service for that entire week. The following year, they'll just forget to resume service afterwards at all.
Did you take the ferry to Richmondtown in the afternoon? Were there no notices posted on the ferry then?
Not a thing. They're making loud announcements on the ferry since the accident last fall but there was nothing on the loudspeakers when we were on the noon boat.
They dropped the ball.
www.forgotten-ny.com
No, was very crowded and i did'nt get near the wall.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm not saying this was sufficient notice to all public. But that's how it was. Happened last year as well and judging from other posts, it's been going on for a few years.
=)
But I gotta admit, the coolest thing I saw was when we passed by Coney Island, coming and going. It was just something else, to see how crowded the beach was. Wall to wall, like the old days. The humans completely covered the beach. And passing by again at night was quite a visual treat. It was thrilling to see, actually. Brooklyn really seems to fit very comfortably with the seashore.
http://www.newsday.com/news/columnists/ny-nysub053881987jul05,0,7504726,print.column?coll=ny-news-columnists
Bill "Newkirk"
I assume that to get off the MTA right-of-way they'll either need a crane and a hugely oversized flatbed, or crank some manual switches and open some fences?
and 1050.9(a):
No person, except as specifically authorized by the Authority, shall enter or attempt to enter into any area not open to the public, including but not limited to train operator’s cabs, conductor’s cabs, bus operator’s seat location, token booths, closed-off areas, mechanical or equipment rooms, concession stands, storage areas, interior rooms, tracks, roadbeds, tunnels, plants, shops, barns, train yards, garages, depots or any area marked with a sign restricting access or indicating a dangerous environment.
Possession of keys, brake handles, etc. is also a chargeable offense, but it doesn't come under NYCRR part 1050 since it isn't listed. If it's found that a person who passed him/herself off as an employee entered the system without paying a fare, he or she could conceivably be charged with fare evasion (which DOES come under NYCRR part 1050) as well.
David
From what I heard, he actually was good at the job, hard to charge him with reckless endangerment...
Did he have his own handle or somehow convince another operator to "load" him one?
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
I see that Darius was only charged with "attempted grand larceny" because he signed the vehicle out and back in again. I'm not even sure that's attempted, in my completely-layperson legal judgment :-)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Streetcars are not motor vehicles, but transit authorities that have streetcar (not LRV) operations usually require a CDL licence, since the employee usually starts as a bus operator before moving to rail.
Arizona requires a CDL for any "vehicle-for-hire" operating in the street... which includes streetcars. As a consequence, all of Old Pueblo Trolley's volunteer operators must have a CDL.
Here's a few of my own photos of OPT.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
David
Actually, it isn't UNLESS the possession occurs on Transit property. There, it would be construed as "possession of burglary tools" I would suppose. But I have brake handles, keys and all the tools to operate subway trains in my possession as a member of a train museum where such operates. And I have operated, therefore the possession is lawful. But I'd have to be INSANE to take them onto NYCTA property. Wait a minute - I *am* insane. Nevermind. :)
But off property, possession shouldn't be a problem. You can't even open a beer with a brake handle.
And with all this "in these times" nonsense, you have pedantic legislators quibbling over who can smoke where instead. (grin) Gotta love the porcine, eh?
OH BY THE BY, saw that "movie" you've been pushin'...
all I could say was ..wow...
Oh yeah,there are more than enough folks walking around with no souls.
Look at that guy in the White House....
Then you don't know how to use your brake handle >G<
That nipple is there for a reason.
If you've got an arnine handle handy, take a look at that hole on the underside. Now examine the hole on the end of the handle. Add a faucet screen, put the end up to your lips, and suck. THAT'S the reason the newer handles ain't built the way the old ones were. Heh.
It's funny ... when I worked there, I'd see people "passing the handle" ... I never got it until recently. Whoops.
Peace,
ANDEE
Fake conductor nabbed - again.
Pete Donohue and Tony Sclafani, NY Daily News, July 3, 2004
A bogus subway conductor was busted again yesterday when cops on board
a Manhattan train realized he was in the wrong car, officials said.
Edward Brown, in uniform and equipped with a Transit Authority radio
and a set of transit keys, was nabbed about 10 a.m. aboard an eight-car
C train at Columbus Circle, police sources said.
Plainclothes transit Officers Peter Rodriguez and Steve Vinella got
suspicious when they spotted Brown in the conductor's cab in the lead
car because conductors should be in the middle cars, the sources said.
The cops questioned him and asked for his transit identification card,
but Brown didn't have one, police sources said.
He was taken off the train and arrested.
Brown, of Flushing, Queens, was charged with criminal impersonation of
a transit worker, a misdemeanor, and possession of stolen property. He
had been arrested twice before on charges of impersonating a transit
worker, police sources said.
http://www.nydailynews.com/07-03-2004/news/story/208669p-179923c.html
He's someone new on the radar. I wonder what he imagined himself doing in the lead car?
http://www.timesnewsweekly.com/Archives2003/Jan.-Mar.2003/010303/NewFiles/POSING%20AS%20TA.html
http://www.rockawave.com/News/1999/0703/Front_Page/Impersonates_Conductor0703.html
Maybe he thought he was on a PATH train.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/05/nyregion/05diary.html
Kristine Freeland
New York, NY
Welcome to SubTalk, as I think this may have been your first time posting.
Do you have any more tales of the wonderful hearts that pass through the tunnels of the city?
My name is Dr. Christian Neuert and I work for the Deutsches Museum in Munich, Germany.
I really hope that someone of you can help me...
First of all I will have to give you some information about our projekt, so that you will not be surprised about my question:
In May 2003, the Deutsches Museum, one of the world's largest museums in Technology and Natural Sciences, celebrated its 100th birthday. In the same month the first part of its new branch museum - the Deutsches Museum Verkehrszentrum (Museum of Transport and Traffic) - has opened. In three large halls - covering an area of 12,000 m2 - this new museum focuses on land transport. The themes presented in the halls differ from hall to hall. The exibition in hall no 1 will be about "City Traffic" (Opening in 2005) and in hall no 2 about "Travelling" (Opening also in 2005). Since May 2003 you can find in hall no 3 the exibition about "Mobility and Technology".
In hall no 1 ("City Traffic") there will be an area about public transport. In this context, we want to pick out "underground transport" as a central theme and - as one aspect - we want to show, how the interior of an "old" historical underground car looked like - compared with the interior of a very modern one, e.g. of a New York subway car. So we are thinking about showing a part/section (length approx. 3 meters) of one modern (New York) subway car.
In this context I would like to ask my question...
Does anybody know, where maybe we can get one?
Best wishes from Germany
Dr. Christian Neuert
P.S.
If you want to get more information about the "Deutsches Museum" and the "Deutsches Museum Verkehrszentrum", please check out our internet presentations:
www.deutsches-museum.de
and
http://verkehrszentrum.deutsches-museum.de
R-32.
(from the MTA website, www.mta.info)
Division of Materiel - Operations - Asset Recovery, 130 Livingston Street, 6th floor, Room 6044, Brooklyn, NY 11201. Phone: 1(800) 543- VALU; Fax: (718) 694-5344.
Good luck!
David
You just missed it though. We (New York City Transit) just got finished dumping over one thousand red coloured cars known as 'Redbirds' into the ocean off the coast of Delaware. As you continental types from the other side of the pond are fond of pointing out, us Americans do some stupid things ( even though the Transit Authority made that decision and not the average person). All that precious steel at the bottom of the sea. Do the fish need a metro; did anybody ask them?
Anyhow, any of those could have satisfied your need sufficiently. The next major retirement is not for another year or two if then. Until then, you most probably will have to pick from amongst the left-overs ( the few cars that did not get thrown out for the sake of fan trips, or those pressed into work service (but those had their interiors modified or stripped)). Anyhow, check the website and write Transit for their response.
I hope this helps.
R-32.
I know, my paternal grandfather was one of the designers.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ha! You could build a six track lion on the Concourse with room left over!
Elias
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
The Concourse line having 3 tracks would have been 4 tracks, if not for the extra wide platform at the N/B side of 145th St, lower level. It is now impossible to convert to a 4 track line for the following reasons:
1. It would require displacement of thousands of apartment residents and businesses along the Grand Concourse.
2. It runs above the Cross-Bronx Expressway; which Robert Moses and company built the highway, in the 1950's, in such a way as not to disrupt the subway tunnel. Can you imagine the traffic nightmares along the nation's busiest interstate for years to come? The tunnel is made of bedrock (from what I observed), and you have foundations along the rock that may be disrupted.
3. The existing mezzanines and passageways will have to be realinged, requiring full station closures for an extended period, possibly numerous weekend closures of the entire line above 145th st.
4. Track interlockings at both sides of Bedford Park Blvd would also have to be realinged and is not feasible from both cost and engineering factors. So basically, you have to close down Tremont, Fordham, Kingsbridge, and Bedford Park stations and try to convert the platforms and walls into 4 tracks, and the same 2 island platforms. Impossible to do.
5. The ridership does not justify any need for increased capacity on the Concourse line, 3 tracks with the middle track is used for peak direction express service to/from Manhattan. And the tracks are set up to be among the most efficent uses in the entire subway system. For example, unlike local and express tracks which may have to cross or merge paths at some point (A/C at Hoyt St), the Concourse line allows local and express trains to run independently (pun intended) of each other. B and D trains can run alongside each other when leaving 125th st and will never have to share tracks anywhere up to, and including Bedford Park Blvd. They still have to share one track in reverse peak but why tinker with a good thing as that?
"It runs above the Cross-Bronx Expressway; which Robert Moses and company built the highway, in the 1950's, in such a way as not to disrupt the subway tunnel."
It must have been one of his weaker moments. :0)
So that REALLY was a challenge to build a 3 lane highway, leaving a subway line untouched. He also did the Prospect Expressway, and that required a new entrance at Fort Hamilton Parkway because part of the F line runs underneath it.
I wish he had brought that kind of ingenuity to transit as well as roads.
At 174/175 the view is even more interesting. You look up and there's the Grand Concourse passing by, almost like it's in another dimension from the station entrance. It's like looking at a real life isomentric view, a slice illustration similar to those that show the detail of places like Grand Central Terminal, with all the underground tracks, power lines, electrical and other utilities being noted. Except here, it's the real thing. That "little" bit of engineering is superlative. It only reinforces, inadvertently or otherwise the realization that, yes indeedy, we are living in a human-designed mechanical machine constructed by us to facilitate our existence on a large rocky sphere. At 174/175, a bit of the curtain is lifted...
Is it possible to add a single lane next to the existing three where the Grand Concourse crosses the Cross-Bronx Expressway?
And is the Grand Concourse wide enough to leave three of the tracks largely untouched, while adding one track to one side? This way only one side has to be disrupted, and only one lane at a time.
R-32.
>>>1. It would require displacement of thousands of apartment residents and businesses along the Grand Concourse. <<<
The Grand Concourse is wide enough, at most points, to support a widening of the line without destruction of apartment buildings and businesses.
Peace,
ANDEE
But River Ave at 161st st at the Deegan end, is not wide enough, and the line cuts through a very tiny part of the Polo Grounds Houses at the Southeastern corner, enough problems in a nutshell.
We do agree the money could be put into better use, like extending the Concourse line towards Gun Hill Road and Co-Op City, as it was originally planned over 50 years ago.
Most definitely.
Peace,
ANDEE
Technically the Express and Local tracks do not merge, the local tracks continue on to Court St Station(NY Transit Museum). NYCT Just made a service pattern which has local and express trains share tracks across the river.
Here's an idea Widen the Grand Concourse to 4 tracks, All four trackways to IND specifications, but the Express Platforms to IRT specs (to eliminate the gap). Elminiate the Jerome Elevated and have the 4 run Express on Grand Councourse, while the B and D go local. OR vice versa, Have the B and D run express to the new extention to Co-op, while the 4 goes Local to Bedford Pk Blvd.
You make alot of good points, but that's not true.
First remember that the subway is two levels down, not one level down (e.g. contract one Broadway). First there is the mezzanine, of course, then - down another flight of steps - there's the platform.
Secondly, please remember that what is now the Concourse line was constructed in the median, under what are now the express lanes. That means the tracks are centrally located, just like Queens Blvd.. Those two three lane roadways are plenty wide enough for a three track subway. Just imagine - if you will - if it was a three track elevated. Even with platforms, there would be plenty of air on both sides, especially for a fourth track. In principle, it's not much different underground. There is considerable space on either side, and the platform level is deep enough not to force the displacement of adjacent residents. What they will have to do, however, is jack up and support the foundations of those apartment buildings (it's very possible). However, this is nothing new. They did that all along Fulton St. in Brooklyn as well as jack up the el itself. That's to say nothing of Times Square itself. The original curving alignment was built under the Times building. The 53rd St. wye is another example (53rd/8th), as those trains surely can't turn sharp enough to stick to the corners; they're deep enough - so they go under the building. The Concourse is no different. There is sufficient technology to accomplish this.
I have a point to add to yours. Those tunnel-bridges at every station would have to be modified where the intersecting roadway goes under the Concourse. The subway tunnel goes under the Concourse but over that roadway ( trolley tracks in the old days).
R-32.
I do not know. I live in North Dakota not North Concourse, but looking at my Hagstrom's Map, it appears that Tremont, Burnside. Kingsbridge and Bedford Park might have a part that go under or something.
Elias
Several. Along with all the ones that 'Elias' mentioned ( especially Tremont Ave., because that was my stop ), there is 167th St. and 161st St. itself. There are plenty of pictures. The book I'm looking at as I write is 'Building The Independent Subway'. Right there on page 55 is a photograph of 161st St. and below it is a schematic/ cut-away of the 167th St. complex. The 'underground' subway tracks go above the trolley tracks/ street. Notice, the diagram shows stairway going up to the mezzanine. Can any one tell me if those stairwells remain today? Probably not. Notice, like I said earlier, the subway is centrally located under the median/ express lanes. If you get a chance to view the said photograph, then you will see that there is plenty of 'elbow' room to either side - in terms of real estate - just judging by the sidewalk entrances diplaced way over to the side. there are other issues in adding a fourth track, but real estate is not one of them.
BTW, to the question again, I later noticed [on page 56] that there is another underpass on the Concourse; but that was before the subway was built. It is/ was located in the proximity of Bedford Blvd. (if it still exists).
R-32.
161st st
167th st
170th st
Tremont Ave
Kingsbridge Road
Bedford Park Blvd
Fordham Road has an underpass, but on the Grand Concourse itself crossing underneath Fordham, not on Fordham Road itself.
174th st and Morris Ave run underneath the Concourse but are not considered underpasses.
I think Burnside Ave does have an underpass, but I'm not sure.
Yes you are right, there is a Bedford Park Blvd underpass.
Peace,
ANDEE
Where can I buy/look at this book?
they have a copie at the Queens main branch on Merrick Blvd,in the Long Island Room upstairs...
you can get the whole book zeroxed for about 2 dollars if you want...
but I don't know if the book is still in print...you can try the Transit store in Grand Central Terminal...
R-32.
R-32.
Where can I buy/look at this book?
I'd Leave the Concourse IND line alone.
I'd build a new two track line and attach it to the Fifth Avenue Subway:
Stops at:
WTC / West Side Hwy (EXP)
Chambers St (EXP)
Moore Street / West Broadway (Local)
E Houston St / West Broadway (Local)
Washington Square (Local)
14th Street / Fifth Avenue (Local)
23rd Street / Fifth Avenue (Local)
34th Street / Fifth Avenue (EXP)
42nd Street / Fifth Avenue (EXP)
53rd Street / Fifth Avenue (EXP)
60th Street / Fifth Avenue (EXP)
116th Street / 5th Avenue (Local)
125th Street / 5th Avenue (EXP)
138th Street / 5th Avenue (Local)
149th Street / River Avenue (Local)
161st Street / River Avenue (EXP / Local Terminal)
Bedford Park Blvd / Grand Concourse
Mosholu Pky / Jerome Ave (4)
Bainbridge / Gun Hill Road
Webster-Bronx Blvd / Gun Hill Road
White Plains Road / Gun Hill Rd (2)
Bronxwood Ave / Gun Hill Road
Boston Road / Gun Hill Road
Esplanade (5) / Gun Hill Road
Bartlow Ave
CoOp City.
So my idea is a new line but with no real new Concourse Service.
The reason why I started this thread is because one possibility for extending the SAS into the Bronx could be to the Grand Concourse line, where it could siphon off riders from Jerome Avenue, and provide relief for the Lex.
Extending the (6)and <6> is cheaper, more riders on (6) and <6> means longer express running times. Unless you want to run the (D) peak express middays as well as rush hours.
But the SAS does not do much for the Lex vis a vis riders from the Bronx.
Elias
Which is why it eventually needs to be connected to the Bronx. The path of least resistance is to use an existing ROW, or the Grand Concourse.
...unless Charlie Rangel becomes Chairman of the Ways & Means committee. If that happens, look for $$$ to flow into NYC, and into his district in particular.
Yes, and No.
While it is more feesible to add service to an outlying branch than to a Manhattan Trunk, The building of a new trunk (second Avene) does suggest the opportunity to serve new areas of the Bronx. CoOp City is one good choice and Third Avenue is another.
A Third Avenue Subway could depart from Third Avenue by continuing north on Lorillard and then bending East on Fordham road Then following the Bronx and Pelham Parkway to CoOp City via Stillwell Avenue. That is an all new line, but it would then be too much traffic for a two track Second Avenue Subway.
Since we seem to be locked in to a two track lion on second, Id bend half of the servive west on 125th to the Hudson river, and send half of the traffic north to Fordham University via Third Avenue.
SAS is a nice idea, and is compatible with existing routes, but any really forward thinking lion needs to be a physically separate system, using its own cars, liner induction motors, computerized control and high speed row.
Elias
Why? It would mandate sending everything from 2nd Ave to the Bronx, including service from Broadway, leaving the 125th St. terminal cut off, but it should provide enough service.
Why ???
To the North and East of Fordham University is the Bronx Park (The Botanical Garden at that point) Just to the North West is the neighborhood of Bedford Park, and the former Third Avenue Station was just seven short blocks from the Concourse IND station of the same name. North of that is Norwood and that has the IND 205th Street Station right in the middle.
Let us put our money where the needs are the greatest.
Elias
Also besides 200th Street, there was also 204th Street, 210th Street and Gun Hill Road stations on the northern part of the line. I would make the line an open cut after 184th Street and elevate it over Fordham Road partially above the Metro North Station, then it will shift over to Webster Avenue between 194-197 Sts. 138-180 Sts will be a 3rd Ave subway. The replacement station on Webster could also increase the number of people going to the Botanical Gardens.
Stopping at Fordham will be worse than the Archer Avenue replacement Subway (which doesn't go to 168th Street and should actually go farther out into Queens).
No, that is not true. They can share the same ROW, but not the same tracks or trackways. Building a subway under the existing tracks or an el above the existing tracks are both possibillites. Of course anouther posibility is to use FRA compatible equipment and crews on that line.
Elias
Well my plan for the Second Avenue Subway would be to make a new subway under Third Avenue in the Bronx. According to the map, that is an area that could use service again.
My pie in the Sky gets bigger when I build a Fifth Avenue Subway, and send that up the Concourse non-stop to BPB, make a connection with the Jerome at Mosholu, then bend east on Gun Hill Road to CoOp City.
Elias
It was then decided to link the the two lines untill funding was availible....meaning "we'll do this latter when we built phase 2"...
while planning Phase 2 lines,it was changed again,so that now instead of joining the route near Grand Concourse..it would continue along Boston Road to East 180th st to join the White Plains Road line,with a branch to Eastchester[joining the Concourse extention from 205th st there]
The Second ave subway can accomplish this goal once again by joining the 8th ave subway between 125th and 135th st,where the tunnel speads out to 6 tracks[something simular to what was done to the Queens Blvd line for 63rd street service]
As of the moment,a route can be built to the Hub at 149th st where transfers can be made to the 2/5 subway.This way some service to the Bronx can be gained....for the moment untill a more suitable route is placed forth....
Are u kidding me? I guess you've never been on Grand Concourse before, it's huge! They could have probably built an 8 track line under it. I'm shocked to tell u the truth that they didn't at least build a 4 track one. They could have probably put the IRT out of business with that.
-Broadway Buffer
The BOT viewed the Concourse line as a branch of the 8th Avenue line and not a separate trunk line. There was also the matter of the Jerome Avenue line being a short distance away.
The Bronx groups were calling for a four-track line to be built, not connecting into the 8th Avenue line, but rather down the East Side to a connection there with 53rd Street or the 6th Avenue line.
The BOT didn't want to spend the money, and there was no sign that they were going to change their mind. They literally said "do you want to build this or not?" That was the choice, and it was the only choice that the Bronx had.
There certainly wasn't any problem with space on the Concourse. Just like construction on Queens Blvd., there were no centre lanes back then, of course, they just dug through the median without disrupting [much] traffic - what little there was back then.
R-32.
;-)
-Broadway Buffer
I think John Kerry is much worse a guy than DQ BrightonLine.
-Broadway Buffer
I don't think it's fair to blame the foamers for making us look like a bunch of idiots. We're doing a pretty good job of it ourselves.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
I dont do it anymore, ill say it again............ and why does everyone make a big deal about the Orange Q? its a color , not the letter!! Still a DAM Q Train!! Not an F or a Z!!! ( ya dont get technical ! and say , there is no Z signs on the rolls on 68'68a's! i know that!)
Who Cares, let it go, can we say ,. lets move on with life...............
I'm being sarcastic here, guys.
I meant to say that I didn't like the fact that u changed rollsigns. & plus, I said that I'm glad u don't do it anymore, so why are u still making a fuss?
-Broadway Buffer
Anyway, sorry for the delay but here are my my photos of R68 #2810 that was hit sometime over the long holiday weekend. Let's hope the NYPD will catch this vandal in the act soon.
I've seen "21st Street-Queensbridge", "Broad Channel", "Howard Beach", "205 Street Bronx" and countless others.
I've also seen B trains that just have a blank space where the north terminal destination should be.
-RJM
So, a suggestion: stop publicizing orange Q signs!
David
-Broadway Buffer
Bill "Newkirk"
Hmmmmm.............I wonder if other Auto Zone stores will appear on other Metrocards making it more difficult to collect ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Here they are! Enjoy!
Sidebar: Imagestation warned me “these images are of an adult nature”!
John
The numbers are not used publically but I think the letters are.
In addition, the collective Harbor Freeway [bus] service is the 809, though it consists of bus routes 444, 445, 447, 460, and 550.
(Yeah, I know the 10 has been "temporarily" bustituted, yuck.)
Mark
The only reason 25 is used for the subway is that the schedule program requires a route number.
The Light Rail has two, I'll have to find out what's used.
Chuck Greene
Like Throgs Neck instead of the correct Throgg's Neck.
Gasp! First post in a couple months!!!
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
I Beg To Differ!
Also, while we're talking SUBWAY lines that have a station called "Union", Los Angeles' Red Line SUBWAY stops at Union Station as well.
Don't get me wrong, I love Toronto, and Union was the first subway station I used after riding a VIA Rail train from Montreal to Toronto's Union Station back in August of 1980. However, there are other "Union Stations" in North America, and as you can see, there are subways that stop there as well.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
-Robert King
To my knowledge Toronto has no stations fully located on a curve (though some stations have slight curves at the edges).
Did you happen to recognize anything from the video as something definitely from the TTC-- I mean maybe it isn't Toronto!
-Robert King
And if there are any Subtalkers there - maybe we can railfan
Mike
Mike
Mike
-Robert King
"Excellent"
Don't be at all worried about taking photography, I'm sure most operators would help out and take the picture for you so that you could be in some of them ;-)
You can do the whole subway system in about 5 hours if that's your thing... Definitely grab a railfan window each and every time you get on though–- it's never that long a wait for the next train if it's taken, and basically your only competition are the kids...
Most people coming to Toronto are probably most excited about the streetcars though... I'd take you around if I didn't work such crappy hours, but I'm always free to answer any questions you may have!
Take care,
Ryan
Mark
Mike
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
1. Lots of new residential buildings going up, and the quality of the facades is much higher than in the 1980s and early 1990s.
2. More people moving around the city on bicycles than I can ever remember (true elsewhere in Brooklyn too).
3. A bunch of wreck trolleys stored on a track inside the Brooklyn Navy Yard, off Kent Avenue.
Anyone here have information on number three?
They make nice seagull perches.
The grey locomotive will probably end up as someone's razor blades.
Mike
Do you want a real Brooklyn PCC rollsign or a copy? Expect to pay big $$ for a real one post-WWII, and several crucial internal organs more if you want a real one from 1936. The most rare are the ones made with the infamous mispellings (doonk doonk doonk at the print shop).
I have a TTC PCC front rollsign. I used to have a side sign as well but a summer job where I never got paid forced me to sell one. I just unrolled the front sign partway and looked at it.
-Robert King
They've just gotten an ex-Brussels PCC.
thank you
Michael
Mike
Took some pictures of even more ex-Shaker cars, including two sisters of the cars in the Navy Yard.
I should have an answer about the Brooklyn rollsign for you by that time. It might be a paper copy and not on the original type treated fabric.
The area behind the present Kent Ave gate used to be the Wallabout Market, which was served by its own RR to shuttle freight cars around. I think it was primarily small steam locos, but I think it had a trolley powered steeplecab for a time. Washington Ave. used to go all the way from Flushing Ave. to Kent, and had BRT trolley shortcut trackage up Washington to Myrtle that section was taken over by the Yard expansion.
The popped handle is the best as far as I'm concerned; some people just lift it before the train stops, so the second the train is ready to open the doors, theirs opens first. Or some imperious looking Frenchman gives a scowl, then pops the door open with a flourish. The buttons have made the scowl and flourish hand gesture obsolete.
In Spain, people aren't so imperious; they look more like they are putting the finishing touches on a piece of serious artwork when then pop the door open.
Buttons are used in the US on Baltimore and San Diego Light Rail, and maybe others.
My main question was how does the TO know when to close the doors without sticking his head out the window. Is it a mirror?
Similar to London, except london uses mirror's.
Yes, l14 is fully automated.
Not as much as the bone breaking Sprague-Thompson stock doors did. I would call any post MP55 stock door closing gentle.
When death rides the rails
I apologise that you (may) have to register, but I think that it is a very good read.
A quick summary--The article discusses the effects of suicide by train on the members of the crew and others and reveals some other information about this seldom-discussed topic.
Matt
i saw a ret tagged vancordlant train in the brooklyn bridge layup tracks
The amazing thing is that I have taken dozens of rides on the Harlem and Hudson lines over the last 25 years, but never one in an ACMU. The odds of catching one was better in 1980, with only the M-1's around to challenge them, but my timing must have been poor. Perhaps, at this late date a finale fantrip can be set before its too late. The ERA had one in 1998, but the trains are still running six years after that 'final run'
Will post whatever pics I took tommorow night.
A question though, how does one upload pics to this board to appear here?
The amazing thing is that I have taken dozens of rides on the Harlem and Hudson lines over the last 25 years, but never one in an ACMU. The odds of catching one was better in 1980, with only the M-1's around to challenge them, but my timing must have been poor. Perhaps, at this late date a finale fantrip can be set before its too late. The ERA had one in 1998, but the trains are still running six years after that 'final run'
Will post whatever pics I took tommorow night.
A question though, how does one upload pics to this board to appear here?
Dont they run mainly to Brewster(Harlem)?
Cant wait to see the pics, goodluck on your trip.
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Cannot find server or DNS Error
Internet Explorer
It's Dave's Electric Railroads , and I just checked - it's up and running - pics updated 7/2/2004.
I supply him with 98% of the Baltimore captions on the site.
Every once in a while some of the DNS servers go "on the fritz" and if you happen to be hooked by your ISP to one of them.
In Windoze there's a utility called "ping", which will give you the IP address of any site you specify.
I don't think the MAC O/S has anything like "ping", maybe the MAC folks know what it's called.
BTW, do you submit anything to Dave's site?
If you send him a bunch, he will make a Salaam Allah section under whatever line or city they would go in. Dave has done this for others who submit a lot of pics.
Whats a museum train car doing all the way up in england(Location is Quainton Road, former Met station in the steam days), now a Museum.
I remember seeing and photographing #1144 inside the place in early winter 1984, just before the start of an Branford-sponsored Metro-North/New Haven line fantrip with FL-9 locomotives. Inside #1144 on that cold, snowy day, the car was littered with lots of bathroom toilet and sink fixtures all around. Yep, that car body of #1144 was as sturdy and solid as it could be then, with a giant tall metal mansion-type gate entrance fence leaning on it in a horizontal fashion!!!
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
--Mark
http://www.nydailynews.com/boroughs/story/209276p-180387c.html
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm glad wooden stations are landmarked (but personally I'm scared of wooden stations, I'm scared that the wood will crack and just fall down around several hundred feet to the street. At least concrete's more sturdy). It will probably experience problems and potential problems too. Termite problems, wood weathering, problems against fire, etc.
Good luck and all.
Can't happen with Ave H, the stationhouse is already on the ground....
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/06/nyregion/06sketch.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/06/arts/music/06CHIN.html
Thanks
Robert
Robert
Inside, you have two R143 cars that were taken out of a consist (the others are sitting nearby outside). One is propped up on those car body stands. Wonder what's going on with those.
In some cases, the ferry is out of service. I rode the ferry last Saturday. The 4:30 ferry from Whitehall didn't turn for the 5:00 from St. Charles. A different ferry was used.
It was nice to see the Barberi back in service. I couldn't find the plaque with the names of those killed in the October disaster.
Michael
Washington, DC
This policy of forcing everyone off was in place well before 9/11. I always thought it was to prevent homeless from sleeping on the ferry all day.
at least on the Staten Island end.....
did this to wake up the sleeping homeless that ride the ferry at night and so on......
Rip-off is really the only way to describe it. I was looking at the fares to/from the EWR rail station. From most stations, an extra $5 is charged for the airport access fee (e.g. Newark - Elizabeth is $1.80; Newark to EWR is $6.80). But to/from New York, it's an extra $7 - NYP - Elizabeth is $4.55 but NYP-EWR is $11.55.
A traveler from New York can save the $2 by buying a NYP-Elizabeth ticket and then paying the $5 access fee at the airport station. I can't see an easy way to save it going from the airport (except to just go the Newark and then take PATH). Even separate EWR-Newark and Newark-New York tickets are cheaper ($6.80 + $3.30 = $10.10) but I doubt you can pre-purchase the Newark-New York ticket at the airport.
Does NJ Transit really think we're that stupid?
As a way around that financial rape, I would suggest using the NJ Transit's #62 rubber-tired transit vehicle (God-forbid I utter the "B" word here... ;-) from the Airport to Newark Penn Station for $1.10, then connecting to the PATH or NJ Transit rail at that station to go into Manhattan.
I know the $5 is levied by the PA. But my point is that for fares to/from New York, NJ Transit is charging $7 over the base rail fare (New York - Elizabeth fare) rather than $5. I'm sure that extra $2 is going to NJ Transit, not the PA.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Different situation. You can't save money by getting a ticket from Nassau to Jamaica and another from Jamaica to Penn.
The reaosn tickets to Penn and GCT cost more than going the same distance wholly within the burbs is that the MTA has to buy extra equipment to serve the people who want to go into the city. Then that equipment only gets used for 4 hours a day. Suburban travel, while less in volume, is more spread out in time.
Also, there's probably some social engineering involved. Suburban trains make up to some degree for the poor bus service and allow poor residents to get to work at a reaosnable price.
That’s a good reason for different prices for peak and off-peak travel (even for regular commuters), not for inflated prices on tickets to Manhattan 24/7.
Not that drawing such a distinction makes sense. Either transit is worth subsidizing or it isn’t.
And since when do EWR employees not work in New Jersey? I’ll bet some of them live in New York.
CG
Either transit is worth subsidizing or it isn’t.
I don’t think the situation is quite as black and white as you portray it. NJ Transit (and implicitly the State of NJ=my tax dollars) has decided not to subsidize travellers who choose to take AirTrain and NJ Transit to New York.
As Charles G has pointed out, the commuter fares for this ride don’t have the surcharge/no subsidy built in, so the full fare is aimed squarely at the air traveller to New York.
There is no sound economic reason to discriminate with transportation subsidies based on residency.
There is a political reason: politics is in effect a popularity contest, so politicians try to please their potential voters at the expense of others.
No, but the PANYNJ does.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/06/nyregion/06CLOC.html
Peter (Nostalgiaddict) drew my attention to this great page over at Arrts archives.
Here's a link to the history and many old photos of the Fresh Pond station, and of the Glendale station. Anyone even slightly familiar with these areas will find the historical photos fascinating:
http://arrts-arrchives.com/mxpond.html
http://arrts-arrchives.com/glendale1.html
Notice how the third rail electrification from the Rockaway branch extended down onto the Montauk Branch to Glendale.
Here's a fascinating bunch of photos for the location where the M line crosses the Montauk Branch at POND:
http://arrts-arrchives.com/df.html
Continued....
Penny Bridge Station
What is that locomotive? It looks awfully a lot like a MBTA diesel...
Arrt's Archives is as good a resource on the LIRR as this site is for the subway system. Where else can you learn about such obscure branches as the Evergreen and the White Line? It's really cultivated a strong interest in me with LIRR service, past and present, within the city.
Passangers boarding at Fresh Pond and Glendale in these days could easily have electrocuted themselves.
True, but many of the early electrified stations had similar situations. Remember, most stations were low level for years after electrification came through. The Whitestone branch was particularly hazzardous. Not only was the low platforms right at the same level as the third rail, but the third rail was actually at the platform edge as opposed to in between the tracks at College Point station, Whitestone, etc!!! In some photos I have seen, they actually go out of their way to move the third rail from "safely" between the tracks before the stations to moving it to platform edge in the stations!!
I think though it'd be better for them to simply tie this in with the new tunnel under the hudson that NJT is begging for, and from there, follow the ARC plan, which calls for a new tunnel either along or under NYP, then under the east river to LIC, where it'd connect with the Lower Montauk I think(I think there is also a plan to include a track between the new East River tunnel and NYP, allowing trains operating via the lower montauk to go to NYP). It'd probably be cheaper and it serves to purposes at once.
That's a pretty decent idea. One of the problems is the congestion on the mainline (through Forest Hills, etc). It would be great if they had an alternative route. The DM30's could send direct trains from the diesel branches to Penn via the Montauk Branch. The added bonus is the freight. The thing is though that the freight can not go through Penn, so I still think Bay Ridge is better for the Freight tunnel. How would the freight be dealt with if the new tunnel was connected via Penn?
At the east side of NYP, a few tracks would once again merge with the freight tracks, which do NOT go through NYP, but rather below or around it. These tracks that have merged will then go under the East River via a new tunnel, then exit the tunnel onto the Lower Montauk in the LIC area. A new underground LIC station can probably be built under the existing one.
That's the ARC plan(to the best of my knowledge).
My idea is the same sorta. Only difference is that the freight tracks would go under NYP. Once under NYP, the tracks would either:
1. fan out to form a new lower level of NYP(probably 8 tracks wide). All tracks would have platforms, 4 total.
2. The 8 tracks merge into 2 again at the east end, then go up to the Lower Montauk via ARC plan, with a new underground LIC station
or
3. Once comming in from LIC under the east river, the 2 tracks would fan out to 8, with 4 platforms. The 2 centermost tracks would continue into the new Hudson River tunnel, which would also be used by NJT trains to NYP. The other 6 tracks would simply end at the west end of NYP.
The thing with my plan is, LIRR can possibly have room on a new level for some more trains via the lower montauk, which would be all DMs.
NY Daily News story
See, another reason why cameras, from cell phones or digital cameras, are useful in the NYC subway. If the photban took effect, then what will the officer, who was summoned inside the station, do? Write up at $25 summons for unauthorized picture taking of a violent felon who just held up a Payless Shoe store earlier, just because the thug happened to walk into MTA property?
THE SYSTEM NEVER WORKS! IT SCREWS THE INNOCENT!
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Look at it this way. If Robert Mizell hadn't of stuck up that shoe store with a bogus gun, there wouldn't have been any Police action and no innocently shot paralyzed boy.
But since d*ckhead made the choice to commit armed robbery that set these events in motion, he wouldn't be locked up and will do time for armed robbery. He made the stupid choice and now he's slammer bound.
Your suggestion of taking the cops gun and badge away and shooting him in the leg is a bit much. Blame goes to Mizell. I guess criminals aren't one of God's more intelligent creatures.
Bill "Newkirk"
You know people make mistakes. Its terrible that because of people like you, almost always liberal (which I'm assuming you are, because I can't comprehend a conservative making a statement like that)!, a police officer has to always think twice before he pulls out his gun to shoot someone.
I think you should be a shamed of yourself for saying that he should be shot, because he was only trying to protect anyone from being shot by a person who appeared to have a real gun. And if he really did, there might have been a very tragic scene at 4 Ave and 9 St. A lot worse than just some kid who got shot in the leg and released from the hospital on the same day.
-Broadway Buffer
That is not a liberal statement. I consider myself a liberal and I have many friends who are liberal and none of them have ever said anything remotely resembling that statement.
That is a radical statement.
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
There is no such thing as a liberal extremist. Those are two totally contradictory words.
There are left-wing extremists, socialist extremists, etc. But that's a different set of people.
Incidentally, there are no conservative extremists either. A right wing extremist is a radical, not a conservative.
:)
I welcome the next generation of subway artists...
NY Times link
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/06/nyregion/06sketch.html
It is the trucks that turn somewhat when the wheels go around a curve.
But forgive me, don't know which equipment has and doesn't have the "feature" ... folks like me just boarded, charged them up and did our job number, hoping for lunch on the other end, whatever our interval put in our face. :)
Someone DID mention that the 142's had an extra system on the trucks.
Anyway, here's a picture of R142A trucks, And here's one of R142 trucks. Substantial difference.
John
I get a good look at some Metro North wheels at the rt 311 r/r crossing in Patterson & it just amazes me how small that "extended" section of the wheel is that ...I guess most folks, self included, think holds the train on the rails.
It just amazes me it does.......but WTF....
Actually, they don't need to be all that profound because of one of the other aspects of train wheels that perhaps are noticed only by folks in the shop. The "treads" are not flat, but rather conical in shape (if they were a few feet wide, they'd look like traffic cones) so, aside from curves or excessive track-hunting, the flanges actually rarely touch the inner surface of the rail. Thus, you don't really need much there.
Guess this location.
I wanted to give you the answer, but I thought a second look would be more appropriate. The reason will be the shock value of the answer, especially to one particular Subtalker on this board. Having said all I can, just name the station and location of the mezzanine.
Next time, you can do a search in the Subtalk archives and check only the boxes in the query search.
I hadn't seen the film in awhile and forgot how dark a film it is.
I have a few q's about the film.
Were the scenes at the IRT stations in the first 45 minutes of the film actually 3rd Avenue el stations or were they actual Jerome Avenue stations? The ironwork at the stations in the movie looked to me a lot like the ironwork of the 3rd Avenue el stations in the Bronx.
Also, the far shots of the IRT train heading southbound revealed the stanchions holding up the structure. They looked a lot like the 3rd Avenue el stanchions, which were more ornate than the later Jerome Avenue line stanchions because they were older.
Finally, were the '39 World's Fair cars ever used on the Jerome IRT? Or only on the 3rd Avenue line?
Also - how accurate was the interior of the WF car used in the movie?
I believe the '38 WF Steinways worked the #7 line then transferred to the 3rd Avenue El. They may have seen service on the Pelham inbetweens. Not sure about the Jerome.
wayne
Pretty accurate. The movie company contacted St.Louis Car Co. for original specs and built a wooden mockup of the car.
Bill "Newkirk"
As I recall, either the mockup was built as a double-ended car (cab at both ends), or else they only built part of a car, and shot the same end of the mockup to represent both ends of the car.
By the way, the TV show that it was based on, from 1963 or 64, used a mockup of an I.R.T. standard car.
Guess this location.
I wanted to give you the answer, but I thought a second look would be more appropriate. The reason will be the shock value of the answer, especially to one particular Subtalker on this board. Having said all I can, just name the station and location of the mezzanine.
It's not on the subway. It's in the ZOO. Next to the LION's CAGE.
You can tell this because the tiles are so new and neat, and so unlike ANYTHING on the subway!
: ) The Broadway Lion!
I'm stumped. I'll stop posting.
...now WHY would Kool-D even -BE- near a holding cell??? :P
Regards,
Jimmy
1. The picture is a renovated mezzanine, the first look are the diamonds on the tile band across at the top, that is pure BMT style right there. So we are looking at a renovated are that is along a BMT station.
2. I NEVER stated the station was renovated, just the fare control area around the mezzanine. So the area was renovated, but the platforms and the rest of the station is not yet renovated.
3. The biggest clue that two Subtalkers were eyeing on was the classic 007 "SHOCKING" line, which came from "Goldfinger" (1964). Now mention the word gold, and the likeness of gold would be the BMT Broadway line (even though the trunk line is yellow), so we are looking at any station along the N, Q, R and W lines. Make the answer really SHOCKING as to the location, the only location would be the Sea Beach line and yes I could say if you mentioned any station along the Sea Beach line, I will give you a pat on the back.
The location is 17th Ave P/T HEET entrance of 18th Ave on the the Sea Beach Line. Congrats Arrow III and edk256 for the best answers. (Ironically, me and Arrow III were at that same station with Brian and Fred when we were waiting for a S/B N train to 86th Street as a means to kill some time.)
Oh Fred, did I say THEY ACTUALLY RENOVATED PART OF A STATION ON THE SEA BEACH LINE. NO KIDDING.
It's about time. With the N on the bridge, ridership appears to be rising.
Back when I lived there, it was 630v DC Broad St.-Richmond/Watford Jct(same as LU). When I last went there in 94, class 313 were still using third rail at Hampstead Heath. Class 313 normally runs on 750v when under DC power. Any changes made to the stock so they can run under 630v DC?
Richmond-(630v DC)-Acton Central-(25kv AC overhead)-Camden Rd-(750v DC)-North Woolwich. (Variations before that : Richmond-(630v DC)-Dalston Jct-(25kv AC)-Liverpool St, and Richmond-(630v DC)-Willesden Jct-(25kv AC)-Camden Rd-(750v DC)-North Woolwich)
Euston-(630v DC)-Watford Jct.
Gospel Oak-(diesel)-Barking
Am I right? Is it technically possible to have both 25 kv AC catenary and 750 v DC third rail installed on the same tracks? I don't think 313s are dual-voltage trains; only the 319s used on Thameslink and some South Central services are dual.
Of course. At Acton Central, the 3rd Rail ends at 1m71c, whilst the OHLE ends at 2m07c, giving a dual electrified section of 16 chains! Likewise there is an 8 chain dual electrified section at Farringdon between the Northern end of the station (0m66c) and where the Moorgate branch diverges (0m58c). There is a longer section of dual electrification at Dolland's Moor (between Sandling and the Chunnel). OHLE starts at 66m25c, whilst 3rd Rail ends on the Up line at 67m32c and on the Down at 7.94km(=68m2c), giving 1m7c of dual electfification Up and 1m57c Down.
I haven't been on the NLL fo a long time, and I didn't realise that they switched modes at all - I thought DC third-rail trains ran all the way through, but that certain sections *also* have overhead lines, which are not used by the regular passenger trains.
What dual-mode rolling stock does Silverlink use on the NLL, then?
Class 313/1, 34 3-car units (DMSO+PTSO+BDMSO), numbered 313101 to 313134, refitted 1997-2002 by Bombardier in Ilford, prior to refit numbered 313001 to 313034. The fleet is shared with Euston-Watford.
It must be to let the train in on one and out on the other ! :-)
BTW, after browsing some sites, I was led to believe that Acton Central-Richmond is now 750v DC. It was certainly 630V DC when class 501 were running there. The D stock are supposedly able to handle the 120v difference. (It's just info I got from some sites, not absolutely positive on that one)
'R Stock' used to have problems with blown fuses leaving Richmond- if the 'deadman' was held in 'Parallel'.
The R stock lasted longer than class 501? (assuming class 501 was 630V only)
I was on a northbound (2) train signed up as headed for 148 Street (R142 cars), and before 125 Street, the signs blanked out. When the train got to 135 Street, the crew directed everyone to leave the train, as 135 Street was the last stop, while all the exterior signs continued to flash, "TO HARLEM-148 ST." So everyone got off the train, and waited for the next train to arrive. Many of the crowd got on the next (2) train to arrive, which was going to Wakefield. The remainder got on a (3) train. However, I wanted to ride a (2) train to 148 Street.
When the next (2) train signed for 148 Street came in (and this was a train of R62's), the conductor made an announcement saying that if you wanted to go to the Bronx, get off and wait for a Bronx-bound (2) train. I thought, "OK, this one is running to 148," so I got on. A moment later (and by this time, only those who were headed for 145 or 148 were on the train), the train crew was told to discharge.
(2) to 148th Street. Ha! What a load of bull!
If the train was signed for 148, why not let the train carry passengers to 148, and not let them be PO'd 90+% of the way there? If the "geese" are not intelligent enough to hear an announcement, or read a sign, then they should be penalized for it.
On the upside to this whole ordeal, I did manage to ride a (2) train of R142 cars from 148th Street, but it skipped 145th Street FSSR, and there were no announcements until 135th Street. When the announcements were turned on, the train acted as if it was entering Nereid Avenue, and was reprogrammed at 135th Street, so that it would make proper announcements from there on down.
Here are pics from my journey.
Between Times Square and 72nd Street
72nd Street
96th Street
135th Street
Lenox Terminal
Lenox Terminal.
It's the 148th st station.
Inside this pamphlet, there is a picture showing part of the exterior of the R143, arrow pointed to the exterior speaker, and a caption, "Outside speakers so you can hear train announcements before you get on." In this picture, there appears to be two sets of LED signs, each saying, "L MONTROSE AVENUE,” one in red LED's and one in orange LED's. It looks like two people are holding up the orange LED sign to the window. Were they testing out which looks better?
http://www.nationallampoon.com/flashbacks/deteriorata/default2.asp (about 750k in size, Shockwave Flash)
Back in 1972/73, if you heard it on the radio in NYC, you were listening to my show on either WLIR, WNEW or WPLJ (where they fired me for playing it)
So I left WNEW and put up a pirate FM in the Bronx called WXVU ... played EVERYTHING I wanted. :)
Why did PLJ fire you for playing that? It’s pretty innocuous stuff!
At least that's the way it works at the HUD!!!
But the AM and FM bands are a vast wasteland. E Pluribus Radio.
The MTA really needs to work on it's contingency planning. And if the employee on the platform whom I cursed out for being rude and unhelpful to over a hundred confused people waited for a D train which never came lurks or posts to Subtalk, I'd like to renew my "you're an @sshole" insult, because you sir are a royal one.
Yet at 3:50, still nothing but N's running on the N line leaving Stillwell. Not good.
There was a police investigation somewhere on upper 6th Avenue (47-50, maybe?) around 7. At least one F was sent up the express; V’s were nowhere in sight (although one may have morphed into an E—I did see an R-46 E train at 7th Avenue); my B, which had been delayed extensively (and got stuck behind the aforementioned F express), was sent up the CPW express, but not until 59 Tower took so long to give us the lineup that we may as well have been sent local.
wayne
I was about to say the same thing.
When something out of the ordinary like that happens you have to stop and think. The N's there for a reason. TA brass didn't wake up at 3:20 and say "Hey, we can send Ns to CI."
> There was a police investigation somewhere on upper 6th Avenue (47-50, maybe?) around 7.
You win... a ride on a rickety ols R42. This one was botched majorly too.
Other aspects of this situation were also botched. The N I was on was held south of 86th St for 3 minutes while another N went into service. My train basically ran empty at 10 MPH behind another train. We should have been sent up the West End. There were massive crowds at Pacific St, without a clue that there was no D train service. I heard no announcements, but I wasn't in the station long.
Yes, but what? And when will it be over? Is it a momentary problem? Nothing's worse than taking an out-of-the-way detour right before normal service is restored.
Because they were coming down the West End? If you send Ns up and down on the West End, it leaves no service on the Sea Beach.
My beef isn't with how service was rerouted, but how these reroutes were communicated to affected riders and the indifferent, contemptible attitude the MTA workers showed towards the confused crowd today.
David
It never ended for the F line yesturday. After that mess was done a police investigation and sick customer at Roosevelt made sure the F continued to run late.
And all the complaints about the B&D service during the reroutes and no complaints about the F! During that whole mess we got Bs and Ds constantly but an F was rare. I think at the height of the mess we got an F every 20 min to an half hour because they were being plugged by the reroutes.
KUDOS to Stillwell F who was miraculously able to make all of his intervals pretty much on time, despite the fact his trains were few and far between. I'm guessing he used a few putins early.
In addition B3 was out for a GO at the beginning of this mess, which made things worse. Had we use of B3 Bs and Ds would have terminated at 18th Ave (which happened later on, actually 3 intervals before yours did terminate at 18th Ave). I guess Church Ave never told you but you too were supposed to discharge at 18th Ave (you were the one who did come down the middle in service, right?)
Does anyone know what it is used for? It's visible from the extreme north end of the station.
-Julian
Once upon a time The Franklin Shuttle was The Brighton Line. The platforms at the time were of normal length. Despite the rebuilding of the line, I don't think the platforms have been extended.
"Except there they run short trains so those stations do platform the full length of the train. In that case, you can also include the Franklin Avenue Shuttle."
Read the quote, thats why I said s/he means the normal stations, rather then shuttle. And as you can also see, the station was meantioned before you.
And I never said any time period either -_-, but its obvious hes asking the current and not the past. Do you understand now? Because you always seem to not understand.
"But the Franklin Shuttle platforms were never extended. In fact they were shortened when it was rebuilt in the last few years."
I'm not sure on the length of the platforms, but if there just gonna run a 2 car train back and forth, theres no reason to have a 4-10 car platform.
"Neither were the platforms at South Ferry or 145 Street."
Well its understandable at SF because if they made too much of a curve, it'll end up like CH, disused due to dangerious train access, even with the gap fillers. :/
And I got no clue about 145th St.
"Neither were the the shuttle platforms at TS and GC."
No reason for them to be extended as they became a Shuttle Line, and no need for a longer platform. But wasnt they long anyways, just shortened to make way for that "temp" crossover?
Are we reading the same posting? He is asking: "Are the only two stations in the NYC subway system not long enough to platform an entire train (are) 145th St on the 3 and South Ferry on the 1/9?" Someone else added the shuttle platforms at TS and GC. I saw no mention of "Time Periods" by you or someone else. Place a quote where someone says that. And before you jump on me (again) the Franklin Shuttle platforms have not been extended. And they are still in use as they were 85 years ago when the Malbone St Crash happened. That should satisify your demand for a "Time Period".
"I'm not sure on the length of the platforms, but if there just gonna run a 2 car train back and forth, theres no reason to have a 4-10 car platform." I believe at the time of the Malbone St crash and Brighton Line service running over the Fulton Street El, The normal consist for a BRT train was 5 cars. You probably won't believe me. But I don't care.
"No reason for them (the shuttle platforms at TS and GC)to be extended as they became a Shuttle Line, and no need for a longer platform. But wasnt they long anyways, just shortened to make way for that "temp" crossover?" Who has said anything about why the platforms were extended? It's a given that the platforms were extended several times in the last 100 years. All I read was just a question about "Are the only two stations in the NYC subway system not long enough to platform an entire train 145 and South Ferry?" And the answer is "No. There is GC and TS on the 42 Street Shuttle and the stations along the Frankiln Shuttle." What don't YOU understand about that?
I still said I didnt talk about time periods. And DUH, I knew the Franklin Shuttle platforms were in use, because I been living in Brooklyn for 18 yrs, so I been knowing that. -_-
And quote where I saw the stuff? I already gave you the quotes, dont know what else you want.
"Who has said anything about why the platforms were extended?"
It was a question you "DOUCE" Head. Not a sarcasem question. You always seem to know nothing on what anybody is saying. I been reading, have you?
"What open for service stations in the New York City, New York, USA, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy, subway system are currently not long enough in length, as of today, July 8th, 2004, to platform an entire train that typically runs on the line the platform is serving?
I don't have a problem with disparaging comments against Americans in much the same way.
Vertically.
Remember longer is not always better.....it's what you do with it...eh the platform that is .
Seems pointless to me.
At some point they realized that it wouldn't make sense to send all Lenox trains to the Bronx, but that more Lenox service would be needed than Bronx service, so they decided to build a terminal on the yard spur at 145th Street and not build the station at 141st.
The Jerome line was not planned at that time and was not built until 1917. When it was completed, it had a connection to the 6th/9th Avenue els, so there was no need for a connection from the West Side subway. In the 1940s and 1950s, there was a proposal to build a ramp in the Lenox Yard to connect to the 9th Avenue El (over 8th Avenue) and thus to the Jerome Line. It was probably shelved because the Jerome line doesn't need all that much service, especially with the 6th/9th Avenue El connection being effectively replaced by the Concourse Line.
-- Robert K. Elder
Published July 2, 2004
Q. The elevated train sequence from "Spider-Man 2" looks like it could have been shot in Chicago, but isn't Spidey a Manhattan hero?
A. Yes indeed, Spider-Man (played by Tobey Maguire) hangs his web in the Big Apple -- but Chicago provided the backdrop for a key battle sequence in "Spider-Man 2." Explains Richard Moskal, director of the Chicago Film Office: "The director wanted to stage a fight scene between Spider-Man and Doctor Octopus on the top of a moving 'L' as as it carved through the downtown canyons [of skyscrapers]."
But, because Manhattan island has few elevated tracks, director Sam Raimi brought an effects crew to Chicago last year, "to replicate New York with a fictitious sense of geography," Moskal says.
The web-slinger and Doc Ock were digitally added in postproduction. Maguire and fellow stars Alfred Molina, James Franco and Kirsten Dunst were not part of the Windy City shoot.
Even an IRT car is larger/wider....
HA..!..It's Okay..
Spidey can swing anywhere he wants to....
But DON'T DRESS UP CTA TRAINS TO PASS OFF AS OUR GREAT SYSTEM.....
HA..!..It's Okay..
Spidey can swing anywhere he wants to....
[not that there's anything wrong with Chi town]
But DON'T DRESS UP CTA TRAINS TO PASS OFF AS OUR GREAT SYSTEM.....
alrighty then......
LOL
Since when could Spiderman teleport? =)
-Julian
I just used my imagination, thinking that this scene happened on the 3rd Ave El.
Does anyone have a video of the 2200's where the doors open/close? I don't think I've ever seen the doors open/close on those cars.
Try http://www.chicago-l.org/, I think thats where I got the video from. Specifically I think it was taken at O'Hare, so try that section.
Hopefully you enjoy the rest of what OTP has to offer.
Click here
Beep Beep Beep Beep Beep - SLAM!
What are a few notice-able differences between the two????????
On the R142, the top of the front storm door is separate from the rest, on the R142a, it is not. Here is a picture of the R142a. Note the non-separate front storm door.
And here is an R142. Note the separate top of front storm door.
The R142/R142a have different acceleration sounds. The R142a sounds like an electronic whine, increasing in pitch as the train accelerates. The R142 sounds a little like the three note NBC theme (or *slightly* like a violin).
Hope this helps,
--Julian
P.S. Someone should put this in the FAQ!
One is Canadian, one is Japanese. LOL. But some differences are with the LCD(or LED) signs on the sides and route sign. R142's flash while R142A's change instantly. Another is that R142's have a larger storm door window than the R142A and below the side-windows, the R142A has a small belt notch while the R142 has none. Overall, I find the Kawasaki R142A a much better riding car IMHO.
Regards,
Jimmy
-Julian
Was I seeing things? I don't think R40 Slants have been used on the F line since the R46's came out.
David
Don't know if it was a wash run but it was a Concourse-CI transfer.
Wouldn't make much of a noticable difference anyway.
LOL
-Broadway Buffer
I think the washer was out at Concourse over the weekend, so a buncha light trains went back and forth to CIY
-Julian
In fact, I don't remember slants ever being used on the F in the pre-R46 era. I used to ride that line a lot as a kid and I remember riding R1-9's and R-40M's and R-42's, but not slants.
Jimmy
David
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Raeson 2) R-40 slant is going to another yard to get a car wash because Coney Island car is not operational right now.
Reason 3) Some re-rout. Too bad you didn't get the letter on the front.
Thats all I can think of. :-)
-Broadway Buffer
Jonathan
My wife and I want to entertain our kids (girls, 14 and 12) for a few days with a nice amusement park, and the choices are Wildwood, NJ or Hershey Park, PA.
I'm familiar with Wildwood and think it's great. It's about 3x what was Coney Island was 40 years ago, when Steeplechase was still open. For Hershey Park, I worry about long lines. What do you guys think?
Koi
FWIW, my daughter - who has ben to both Wildwood and Hershey - picks Wildwood as the place to return to.
If you like boardwalk strolls, a really nice wide beach, and proximity to Atlantic City (besides the casinos, a nice NJ Transit rail terminal), go to Wildwood. The amusements are all individual but are clustered along the boardwalk. No really big hotels - but loads of small seasonal hotels and motels.
If the beach isn't your thing go to Hershey. It's one large park, sort of a small Busch Gardens without the country themes. Nice exhibit about chocolate making also (no extra charge). Besides the usual small hotels/motels the Hershey folks have one or two large hotels adjacent to the property. For railfans, the RR Museum of Pennsylvania and Strasburg RR are nearby.
Lines can be a problem at both particularly on weekends. Try to go mid-week.
Wildwood or Hersey Park?
I wasn't thinking roller coaster rides when I read it, I was thinking of another kinda....
(Yes, I have a dirty little mind :)
Wildwood also has the CMSL in nearby Cape May Courthouse.
Hershey is a nice park, but it's mostly roller coasters and I'd rather go w/my cousins & friends to enjoy the rides more
To each his own, I guess... we entertained our four children (and now our two grandchildren) with a variety of museums and experiences oriented towards making them better appreciate the world around them - culture, history, science and technology, all types. For what you'll spend at either place you can take them to Williamsburg (and I don't mean Busch Gardens, either), to Boston (but not during the DNC), to Washington, or any number of other places where they will be exposed to the heritage and culture of this country, or even another (Ottawa and Québec City come to mind). From an amusement park they'll come away with a few tacky souvenirs and a passing thrill; from any of the other places they'll come away with a broader outlook on life and a better appreciation for the world around them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Side note: when I was their age the museums of New York were all FREE and accessible, and the big libraries were open long hours, and I enjoyed them to the hilt; but don't take my memories of Coney Island away)
If your daughters love rollercoasters, then Hershey Park would be my choice hands down. The lines are not that bad; I was just there a few weeks ago, and all I did with my kids was go on the rollercoasters, and we didn't wait too long for any of them. Hershey has several wooden rollercoasters including one that that has two trains racing each other. I think the park has 11 overall.
If you would rather have more of the general experience "Coney Island" style, then go to Wildwood. But good luck trying to get a hotel / motel room there now. I'm sure you'll find one, but it might be $$$$.
And there's always that "tramcar" on the Wildwood boardwalk, and Sea Shell for ice cream ... yum !!
--Mark
8?D Jimmy
Gray US flags
Gray yead stickers
Gray interior
Gray motorman!!!!!!
Nice try faker! Go get yourself a frap-a-chi-no while you go think up another one. And I suggest you get a venti one with an extra shot of espresso, cuz you're gonna be up for a while being able to make something which will actually trick us.
;-) Broadway Buffer.
The Kerry camp leaked some disinformation to the PEST. They sucked it up hook, line, and sinker. That is called Conservative MANAGEMENT 8?)
Well, I guess the Kerry camp would never leak any disinformation to the Old York Times, cuz they would never want to misinform other liberals.
God forbid he becomes president & will seriously need some liberal management. I already need it just to tolerate liberals like yourself. And I think we should bring back the K train just for him. It can run through Manhattan on either 6 Ave or Bway and end up in what I've gathered to be a liberal area, Sheepshead Bay!
-Broadway Buffer
I need liberal MANAGMENT!!
Year 2035 News
Ozone created by electric cars now killing millions in the seventh
largest country in the world, California.
White minorities still trying to have English recognized as
California's third language.
Spotted Owl plague threatens northwestern United States crops and
livestock.
Baby conceived naturally... Scientists stumped.
Couple petitions court to reinstate heterosexual marriage.
Last remaining Fundamentalist Muslim dies in the American Territory of
the Middle East (formerly known as Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, and Lebanon)
.
Iraq still closed off; physicists estimate it will take at least ten more
years before radioactivity decreases to safe levels.
France pleads for global help after being overtaken by Jamaica.
Castro finally dies at age 112; Cuban cigars can now be imported
legally, but President Chelsea Clinton has banned all smoking.
George Z. Bush says he will run for President in 2036.
Postal Service raises price of first class stamp to $17.89 and reduces
mail delivery to Wednesday only.
35 year study: Diet and Exercise is the key to weight loss.
Average weight of Americans drops to 250 lbs.
Massachusetts executes last remaining conservative.
Supreme Court rules punishment of criminals violates their civil rights.
Average height of NBA players now nine feet, seven inches.
New federal law requires that all nail clippers, screwdrivers, fly
swatters, and rolled up newspapers must be registered by January
2036.
Congress authorizes direct deposit of illegal political
contributions to campaign accounts.
Capitol Hill intern indicted for refusing to have sex with congressman.
IRS sets lowest tax rate at 75%.
Florida Democrats still don't know how to use a voting Machine.
Koi
http://english.eastday.com/epublish/gb/paper1/1323/class000100005/hwz201820.htm
http://www.iht.com/articles/528262.htm
http://www.nypress.com/17/27/news&columns/RichardKostelanetz.cfm
The "press" hasn't been scoring well lately. :(
Plus about 15 minutes walk from Brighton Station to the beach (I walked it yesterday). But it *isn't* the tube, it's national rail. Even closer to London is Southend-on-Sea, which has pretty frequent trains on two routes, but is still not on the tube. No real sea is accessible by the tube. Berlin's Wannsee is a pretty big lake, and in the days of the Cold War and the Wall, it was the best that the West Berliners could do for the "seaside".
London Victoria 1002 (front part of train!)
Chichester (Station) 1148
Chichester (West St) 1205
West Wittering 1227
Journey time: 2 hours 25 minutes
Very OT, but vines will grow in Sussex, so there must be quite a bit of sun on the English South Coast.
Anyway, other capitals of the world that have beaches accessible by public transport in an hour or so exists. I'd rather not limit the mode to the subway if the luxury is to "leave at noon, swim for an hour and even take a nap before returning home for dinner". You can do that in Tokyo and Athens as well. There are probably others too. Also the writer seems to think that NYC is the capital of the US.:p
But man .. Biff and Bunny talking head, Candy ("Have anothe KRISPY KREME, sweetie:) COWley on CNN, and the clueless Jennifers that walk into the photo-op, grab a press release from the table in the back of the room and head back out to the lobby while the "event" goes on to IM their latest boyfriend out where there's a signal. Aggggh. No WONDER people actually believe Saddam blew up WTC. :-\
The POST and THIS are, unfortunately, NO surprise. :(
Fun Pass works just fine, so for the round trip to Long Beach it's $7 vs. $8 (2 + 2 then 2 + 2).
David
-w.e.s.
Then there's the Jersey Shore that can be reached from 34th street with NJ Transit. I like Long Branch alot and if you take a bicycle, all the beaches for 10 miles are accessable like Asbury Park.
The ocean east of Beach 60 actually got rougher until about Beach 39 St; in fact, surfers would come to our block after normal beach hours. East of there, the water would get progressively calmer as you were actually swimming in the inlet between Rockaway and Atlantic Beach.
There was a large public area that was built around Beach 17 St, but it is really only accessible by automobile.
Beach 35 St was a center of activity for people who came out for the day. All the amusements, restaurants and shops you long for were available either on the boardwalk or on Edgemere Av, which ran parallel to the subway in that area. Unfortunately, many times "riots" would break out, so the police stationed a paddy wagon right on the boardwalk as a deterrent. It was incidents such as these that contributed to the "urban renewal" of the area.
Rockaway was a fantastic place for the people who lived there in the summer; it was at least 10 degrees cooler than "the city" (usually Brooklyn or the Bronx), particularly at night; you can work a job in Manhattan and, thanks to the subway, (and the LIRR before that,) still commute daily; and, best of all, the relative freedom of being steps from the street and beach and ball fields after being cooped up in school and an apartment for 10 months.
Large portions of the Rockaways are deserted. The very begining of the beach where the housing projects are located is deserted. I rode my bicycle along the entire boardwalk and it's incredible how the beach front changes when the neighborhood gets better.
As crazy as it seems, I noticed the same thing along the Jersey Shore. All the Blacks and Hispanics were at Asbury Park which is a shadow of it's former self. Yet, Bradly Beach has a wonderful amusement park but you'll find very few minorities. All the caucasions were at Bay Head and Long Branch.
Contrary to popular belief, gentrification is not as widespread as one would believe.
So is the community there Armenian, Azerbaijani or Georgian?
Plus, the opposite bank is a dead ringer for the rocky beaches of New England. Bonus!
Surf's up, dude; I can smell the Sea n Ski already!
Your pal,
Sandy
First pic is of the trailer, second one is an aerial shot of the places 'clubhouse' w/ resturant, pools, gameroom, etc. I took a pic of a photo on the wall inside the clubhouse.
See y'all on the MOD trip!
-Chris
Sorry to kinda hijack your thread here man! Glad you had fun! Happy 4th to you too.
-Chris
-Chris
Mark
From what I've heard, it's a place of spectacular beauty, considerably larger than the Grand Canyon, and the only access is by rail.
I suppose if you want to find a train that is heading towards Mexico, you could try to find a line of cars being pulled by a locomotive that has a royal-blue livery and golden yellow letters on the side that reads "FerroMex". :)
I saw one of these "FerroMex" locomotives not to long ago.. it was coupled to a Conrail, a BNSF, and a UPRR locomotive pulling a 45-car line.
Mark
Again, none of the maps are available to be mailed or sold. At this point, my only suggestion to interested parties is to contact WMATA directly and see what they say. I have gotten the maps through them before in the past.
You should shoot some of your pictures in the future at an angle that shows both the station name and train destination signs. I have a picture of Farragut North destination sign behind a Greenbelt pylon that I took on the last year that the Green Line shortcut was run on Independence Day.
This way you can let the picture tell its own story.
John
I don't think many pictures of the Green Line trains on the A and B routes exist. It is too bad...
Because of the unique designs of the Rosslyn vault not showing the station name is not that big of a deal.
I don't think many pictures of the Green Line trains on the A and B routes exist. It is too bad...
I will have to go through my archive, but I think I might have a couple at Brookland that I shot on the same day.
John
Can anybody shed any light on what the status is of D5 track over the Gowanus Canal? I was through there the other day and noticed it closed and overgrown. Has D5 been permanently abandoned or is it out of service for a works project?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming July 12th
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming July 12th
It's getting to be that time again. I go to press this weekend, so I'm looking for any last-minute details that you can think of.
What I have already:
* Temporary Bronx station closures for rehabbing. Two of them on the 4, one on the 2/5, IIRC.
* New B-style signals on the 2/5 from Mott right up to the end, excepting E-180 and Dyre.
* D5 OOS over the Canal
* New alignment kinda-sorta ready at Nassau, but on hold until further notice.
* Stillwell alignment.
* 2 x-overs out permanently south of Howard Beach.
What I know I need:
* The final alignment for the Nassau St. line - I thought I had it, but there appears to have been some changes just before Essex St.
* Clifton Yard layout on SI
* Any schedule updates on CBTC implementation.
* Any schedule updates on the Flushing line's re-signaling and track work.
* Any tower changes since earlier this year.
* Finalized track plans for the new terminal at SF.
* Car/Yard roster post-Stillwell
* Anything not covered here but in progress.
This will probably be the final release of the book for 2004, barring anything unforeseen. I'd planned on coming out with the Fourth Edition for the early New Year, but those plans have had to be pushed back until next summer or so.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming July 12th
This month's Bulletin from the NYD-ERA mentions that it will be reopened for "transfers" at some point.
This month's Bulletin from the NYD-ERA mentions that it will be reopened for "transfers" at some point.
I'm having trouble understanding why this is an improvement. This is a station with heavy tourist traffic, and reopening the middle platform will probably confuse people who aren't regular riders. (People entering the station will decend to the middle platform when they need a local. People wanting to transfer from express to local will alight on the middle platform by mistake.)
The idea is to open the platform for transfers -- i.e., as an IRT underpass.
In the past, whenever there were trains waiting in Tracks 1 AND 2, passengers entering via Lippmann Plaza had to guess which train was leaving next, walk over to that particular platform, and then stare about 100 feet down the platform to glimpse at the old "NEXT TRAIN/LOCAL/EXPRESS" sign in the distance. If they guessed wrong, they had to walk around to the other platform. I guess the MTA finally realized this was a complete waste of time.
The new sign eliminates this stupid 50/50 guessing game.
When I passed through the station yesterday evening, the sign had read: "<-- NEXT TRAIN"
However, I'm sure that it can say other things as well, depending on the situation. I'll keep you guys posted.
But they do need to make sure the next train signs are working correctly as it was telling people to goto one track while the opposite wall track was the next to leave(and yes the downstairs next train sign pointed to the train unlike the one upstairs).
-RJM
R-32.
- LotIRT
R-32.
Thanks anyway.
R-32.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
R-32.
That's no big deal at Main St. though. There are stairs midway down the platform to cross over or exit through the turnstiles if you wish. That's if there is no train on the middle track with both sides open - crossing over isn't even a thought then.
R-32.
R-32.
Perhaps, but why would you want to upset, displease or otherwise inflict yourself on other people. There will be another train. Woud you like to be cut through by someone else in a hurry.
Let's walk down the hill and do them all.
Moo.
Elias
R-32.
Well, maybe I misunderstood how you meant that. I guess I imagined you cleaving through people rather than crowds. But then, I can move prety quickly through crowds myself, and sometimes hear comments from others for doing so.
Elias
"and sometimes hear comments from others for doing so. "
That's because many New Yorkers are very rude; not wanting to accomodate others' space when they rightfully should. Some don't appreciate the magnitude of their rudeness; they think they're being themselves, or doing what everybody they know does. I was one of them until I learned the world has other manners. The last time I was in NY, I was coming up the steps at 138th St. G.C. with my suit case, having just come from the airport. This fat girl comes down the steps my way with a group of friends and is going to act like she doesn't see me. So I refuse to move ( as if, where would I go; she was a two ton elephant and I was against the right side of the staircase as it was) hoping she'd get the hint six inches before the point of contact. Well I brushed her shoulder and she gave me a screwed up face. I kept on trucking. There are many other instances like so, that I've faced in NY, that don't happen with quite the same frequency anywhere else.
R-32.
I read the tread about door openig methods in Paris and thought,- does all those levers and buttons bring any convenience for passengers?
Why not just automatically open all doors when a train is stopped on a station?
SMRT(Singapore Metro) too uses the PED's.
RATP l14 uses them.
Mainly all APM's use them.
Theres more I know I'm missing, but this should give you an idea.
" I don't know exactly the reason why are they made such way, most probably becaus of safety or ground conditions. "
There made so people can less kill themselfs using the train, helps keep climate control, and less garbage on the tracks. Not to meantion, the train can come in at a high speed and not worry about people looking over the platform.
http://www.metrowalks.ru/spb/photo-3-7-1
Do you mean the same construction?
About the train speed, I heard the opposite opinion: the train
have to arrive on lower speed because it may not miss the doors.
Sometimes it misses and has to return a bit backward, I was catching
at this.
But if you mean the large glass doors with metal frames, those are what I'm talking about.
The train can come at a normal/high speed just like any other train, but wont have to slow down due to people looking over the edge, etc...
You say you hear about the train having to slow down, that's bull, if it were like that, it'll slow the system down even more, and I have watched tapes with stations using PED's and they come in at a normal/high speed.
The platform edge doors that other posters have been describing along the new stations of the Jubilee Line in London are not incorporated into the station's structure in the same way; the stations are built like other tube stations in London, as a widening of the track tunnel, and the platform is only closed off from the track by glass in a light steel frame. In addition to preventing suicides and keeping in the air-conditioning, the platform edge structures control air pressure in the tunnel, allowing the trains to accelerate more effectively. The platform doors are indeed a nuisance to operate when the trains are under manual control; they were designed with the understanding that the Jubilee trains would be run by computer.
Since the St. Petersburg subway was designed without the possibility of computerized operation, I'd assume that some structural necessity did require that the platform walls and doors be included, despite the operational difficulties they involve; my guess would be that the waterlogged soil throughout the Neva delta was the problem they're supposed to solve.
These are not just openings, they have steel doors which open simulateneosly with train doors:
http://www.metrowalks.ru/spb/photo-3-4-2
>even Moscow has the platforms entirely open to the tracks, no?
You are right, all Moscow stations have opened platforms
>Since the St. Petersburg subway was designed without the possibility >of computerized operation,
Computers were quite uncommon in the times when those stations were built (1955-1975).
>The platform doors are indeed a nuisance to operate when the trains >are under manual control;
You are talking about the rare cases when a motorman miss platform doors, aren't you? Probably, a computer can make this work more precision and at higher speed.. Anyway, I prefer a live man in a control booth.
>my guess would be that the waterlogged soil throughout the Neva delta >was the problem they're supposed to solve.
However, in most waterlogged places such as near the quicksand which provoked the tunnel damage on Line 1, all the stations have the common platforms entirely open to the tracks. For Example, Mujestva Square station even hasn't one column. I believe those platform doors are closely related with high underground soil pressure.
It is the Jubilee Line that has them, but only the 1999 extension, not the old part of the line. I just call them platform doors.
1) It keeps the heat or air conditioning in the car when the door doesn't need to be used (especially at outdoor stations);
2) It saves on wear of the door mechanisms;
3) When those doors slam shut in Paris, they are noisy; it's more pleasant if sometimes you don't have to hear it quite so loudly;
4) It allows one to continue to lean on the door if no one is getting off or on (I don't think the Transit bosses think that's a good reason).
http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/070704/b0107goingplaces.html
Thank you for sharing this with us.
Don't forget to join us at the September Photo Ban Protest, all organized by The Joe if you can.
http://www.citidex.com/map/subway800.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/209862p-180823c.html
-Broadway Buffer
And why $2 a pop.... I'd thought their business was that of the $1 fare..
Mightst just buy a commemorative card, plain sam.
So then, it's really NOT necessary to call the cops.
You *could* just call out for some Krispy Cremes to be delivered, and the guy would flee the station.
Of course then you would get FAT on those donuts, but what the heck.
Elias
Survaliance cameras are needed. when you see a swiper at work, let him swipe a few people in, then arrest him
Problem solved
While one can make very reasonable arguments that the Rockefeller drug laws were overly harsh, it is almost impossible to argue that they failed to dissuade many from entering that trade. (It can also be reasonably argued that those same laws led to the degree of violence and level of profits involved in the drug trade).
The options for penalties are fines, community service and jail time. Fines are likely to be uncollectible from most of your average swipers. Community service is probably both unenforceable and ineffective. Jail time costs $$$.
It comes down to what NYer's want. I suspect that (like they do with prostitution) they will choose token enforcement efforts with slap on the wrist penalties.
CG
I was in NYC 2 novembers as for a hotel tradeshow with 70something of my peers. Me and some girl[who's running away to kentucky i think :( ] were using the subway to run around the city.
I swipe my card and go through the gate
she swipes hers and it doesn't let her through.
A scuzy looking guy came over and offered to swipe and said you can't reswipe for up to 17 minutes.
I don't know if she caught on, but I quickly realized we're not in Orlando anymore. I remembered we're in the great NE and I've been approached by more talented bums during my stay then FOX has on reality shows. This guy is up to something.
Ignored him and I exited and we went on our way outside the man-sewers.
Now, if i had said yes and he swiped, is he going to ask me for money AFTER I accept? NO WAY. That's my problem. Unfortunately from these boards I know the deal now. But as a tourist i'm not paying this guy pretending to be a good samaritan.
Maybe if I said yes and then he asked for a dollar before hand that would avoid this, but I dont' know how sneaky these people claim to be.
I am quite confident that swipers collect the money before swiping.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/politics/ny-nybrig073883631jul07,0,816588,print.story?coll=ny-nycpolitics-headlines
“Anyone seen taking photographs is going to be questioned,” said Richard Maloney, a spokesman for SEPTA, Philadelphia’s public transit authority, in a recent Time magazine about railfans. “The wide-open spaces and the freedom we have enjoyed to meander almost anywhere is gone.”
It’s a sentiment shared by John Almeida, profiled in the Time magazine article, who chases train every day during lunch hour.
I certainly DO NOT share those sentiments! No one has taken away our freedoms yet, but they ARE trying very hard. The following just happened yesterday.....
CSX C770 derailed at least a couple of cars while shoving back into the Bucks County Ind Park across from Woodbourne Yard on the Trenton Line. SEPTA was running trains on Track 2 between Wood and Nesh while CSX and SEPTA personnel dealt with the cars. Half of the train was pulled south of the switch and sent back to Woodbourne while about 5-6 cars and one engine were on the BCIP trackage.
Went to Fairless Jct, gave my card to some employees there and asked to take a few pics at a distance, after which an employee who I presume was the foreman yelled "OUT OF HERE!", which I did. Went to the public overpass and got pictures of the cars and dirty looks from the crew on the ground. Then went around to the JC Penney warehouse, gave them my card and asked to take some pictures from inside their gated parking lot and a guy in the office said OK. Got my pics, then found out that guy was not THE GUY. When he approached me (actually honked at me from his car), THE GUY said he was told that CSX had just chased me away from the scene! I explained that I had asked and received permission from someone at the office (how the hell am I supposed to know who in the office is supposed to give out the permission slips), and I left. Then went to the parking lot of the ind park to get some more shots when another guy from CSX approached me in my car and said "Didn't we tell you to get out of here!"
That was it, I almost lost it. I told the guy I wanted his card. He
asked why, and I said I wanted to know how he could tell me to get out of a parking lot THAT IS NOT CSX PROPERTY. He backed off, and at that point I let him have it, logically speaking. I explained everything from why the people in BCIP did not know about the derailment in their back yard (because CSX did not tell anyone), why he and everyone else from CSX think they can do and say anything they want anywhere they want, why he was concerned with me when I was nowhere near the derailment (he blurted something about security issues and the ubiquitous "9/11" - what the hell that has to do with CSX putting cars on the ground is unfathomable), why there would be "privacy issues" (his words) regarding me taking pictures of the scene that is in public view and concerns the well-being of us all. I also told him about the article in this week's Time Magazine about Homeland Security recruiting truckers to keep an eye on things "suspicious"
http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1101040705-658321,00.html
and asked why not enlist us railfans (who on the whole seem much more
enlightened than the gear jockeys in the article). I wish I had recorded the tidal wave of frustration that I unleashed on this guy about the stupidity and arrogance running rampant in our society. In the end, I left and hopefully at least one CSX employee had something to thing about.
I have had it with morons. I am mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore.
No, it hasn't. You're taking it for no logical reason, Mr. Maloney.
-why are you stopping people taking pictures? is it against the law?
- when your own cops break your own regulations by smoking on MFL station platforms (next time I see it, I'll take a pic of 'em)
- when your own cops cant enforce basic Septa regulations like smoking, littering, 'cracking forties' on the subway.
As an aside, remember just after Sept 11th, we weren't going to change our habits, etc, when that would be 'giving in' to the terrorists? Well, it looks like the terrorists are winning, with a little help from the dept of homelnd securitie, plus our local friendly transit agencies.
Just hold your hand out and demand to see their ID card. Reject it if it is not a photo ID card, and explain to them that they have no RIGHT WHATSOEVER to even suggest that you suspend your freedoms as an American.
Write down his name and information, and then ask him the name of his supervisor, and what department that he works in.
Inform him that you have rights to take pictures, that the Taliban and AlKida did NOT win the war, and that you will report him to his superiors and to the authorities for infringing on your rights.
Now we did have a rail wreck out here in North Dakota, happend less than one mile from my front door, but would you believe nobody in town heard anything. Apparently hoppers full of coal do not make much noise. I guess the coal attenuates the sounds.
Pictures were no problem, even from RR property. I guess with a wreck in town they must have figured that there was no way to hide it anyway.
Elias
ask the FEDS why thy started this stupid crap...or rather ask your greedy ass president and is father about it...
it a damn shame how the powers that be have be allowed to play on the public they way they have been doing lately
all in the name of ''HOMELAND SECURITY''....
makes me ill,I tell you....
Can't wait untill our Creator returns,to make them suffer for this....
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200407/200407070044.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/07/nyregion/07profile.html
(Original publication: July 7, 2004)
http://www.nyjournalnews.com/newsroom/070704/b0107goingplaces.html
When David Sommer walked around the corner from his home and started pointing his new digital camera at some cool-looking railroad equipment on the tracks south of Mount Vernon's Fleetwood station, he had no idea he might be flirting with danger and testing the limits of civil liberties.
Sommer, a 43-year-old self-described balding rail nut, was just hoping to shoot a prize-winning picture. The grand prize in a Trains Magazine contest, photos of railroaders at work, is a $2,000 digital camera, a far cry from the $89 model he's now using.
But Sommer looked suspicious — at least to a woman working in a nearby office building. She called city police. As Sommer held the camera over his head and shot frame after frame of a track equipment car and a ballast-spreader, he suddenly found himself surrounded by five police officers, the lights in their squad cars flashing.
For the next 30 minutes, Sommer was questioned about who he was (an out-of-work Web content developer and former taxi driver), where he grew up (White Plains) and what he was doing near the tracks.
Sommer said police suggested that given these security-conscious times, his camera would be better aimed at ducks in a pond. After a thorough grilling, Sommer was told it might not be a bad idea to delete his rail pictures. Then he was told he was free to go. "I have no objection to police questioning me,'' Sommer said yesterday, as he showed Going Places where he peeked through the overgrowth to take pictures of waving track workers and their equipment. "I think they did the right thing by confronting me. But once they established who I was, they should have left me alone. I think there's a little bit of hysteria. It's easier just to say go away, but I don't want to go away.''
Besides, Sommer said, much more potentially sensitive information is already in the public domain. Holding up computer printouts he made from accessible Web sites, Sommer showed a page from www.citidex.com with a detailed map of Grand Central Terminal, with all of its entrances, exits and tracks labeled, and another from www.railfan.net that diagrams the switching stations, tracks and platforms at Penn Station. "I doubt the photos I take would help any terrorists,'' Sommer said. "There's far more usable information to someone who has bad intentions already out there. They don't need my stupid little photographs to stage a terrorist attack.''
Mount Vernon Police Chief Terrance Raynor said police were obliged to investigate every complaint, but agreed Sommer had a right to pursue his hobby.
"My guys would be irresponsible not to follow up and forward that information to the proper authorities, whether the MTA or the Office of Homeland Security,'' Raynor said. "Once we determine they pose no threat, they can absolutely go about their business.''
Sommer tried again Saturday and Monday, but again was shooed away — this time by Metropolitan Transportation Authority police. He was on the platform at the Fleetwood station taking digital pictures of progress on the widely publicized Third Track project, which will bring more frequent train service to customers along the Harlem Line when it is completed in September. Sommer said he was told that he could not stay on the platform without a ticket and that, with one, he could not remain there after the train departed.
Such strictures could get even tighter. The MTA, the parent agency of Metro-North Railroad and New York City Transit, has proposed new rules that would curb the rights of amateur photographers to take pictures within the subway system. Critics contend such a ban amounts to overkill, but MTA spokesman Tom Kelly said the measure was recommended by the New York Police Department to heighten security. Kelly said that it was intended to protect sensitive areas such as tunnels, but that anyone on a public road can photograph whatever he or she wants, including MTA trains, bridges or equipment. Based on what he was told of Sommer's photographic forays, Walter Zullig, former special counsel to Metro-North Railroad and current regional vice president of the National Railroad Historical Society, said city and railroad police had probably overstepped the necessary boundaries.
"This sounds like classic overkill,'' said Zullig, who lives in Ossining. "Things like this have been happening in the Northeast. There is nothing that any railroad enthusiast is going to get in a picture that is not readily available in a book or on the Internet. To say to people you can't take pictures is ridiculous. Having said that, I would not condone walking on the tracks or going into nonpublic areas, but standing on a street or on a platform or an overhead bridge, that's a public facility. All we can hope is police can use some common sense.''
This is an appropriate police response. No railfan should object to being questioned, but once the benign nature of the photography becomes obvious, they should be left alone.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
If you're waiting for a certain train and you are observed whipping out the camera, photographing the train and putting the camera away, wouldn't that raise more suspicion if you are being observed ?
At least with my camera bag, I look like photographer. If a terrorist wants to photograph sensitive areas, he's not going to lug a heavy camera bag, he'll do as you do.
Be careful John, don't act too suspicious.
Bill "Newkirk"
I just hope that this chaos will eventually come to an end. However, I agree. Hanging around, whipping the camera out and putting it away immediately can be more suspicious than just taking a picture normally. I think there should be a medium between what was said about "quick pic taking" and hanging around a station for 20 minutes taking people. What I'd suggest is if you see something cool while waiting for something, take out your camera, take a few pics. However, don't loiter and whatnot. Of course, I'd probably be too nervous to take my camera out anyway, lol.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Don't expect any lessening of terrorism paranoia if Kerry gets elected. He'll be trying to prove that he's not soft on defense and national security, and as a result may overcompensate and be even more paranoid than Bush. The one difference is that John Edwards won't be playing the Dick Cheyney role in the terror fight, as he'll be too busy chasing ambulances.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040712-660960,00.html
"Individuals seen taking photos of landmarks and other potential targets are not usually arrested (it's not illegal), but U.S. officers check their pictures and enter their names in an interagency record base.
[... examples of suspicious photographer incidents ...]
Any or all of these incidents, of course, may have been innocent. But federal officials are reviewing them and urging local law-enforcement to be vigilant against a possible terrorist strike this summer or fall."
Remember, most CCTV systems can see what you are doing some of the time or see where you are all of the time, but they can't see what you are doing all of the time.
The goal here is to make it administratively hard for cops to do this sort of thing. They know that if they do, they are likely to have to deal with questions and paperwork back at the station. Easier to leave the photographer alone…
That they have the right to do. The trick is to have a ticket and show up 2 minutes after the previous train has left. That way they can't shoo you off for 28 minutes (or longer).
Though I do visit other places sometimes. Still, Mineola is my number one photo spot.
I know they make cameras with wireless remotes, so you can frame your short ahead of time and then hope for the best, but remote viewfinder would be the bee's knees.
I absolutely agree with you that the technology has matured to a point that the bad guys will be impossible to catch and all the ban will do is annoy the honest citizens.
"There was a fence between tracks to keep people from crossing"
Wasn't this a standard thing at stations with low level platforms. Everyone keeps saying, low levels encourage people to simply walk across the tracks wherever. Well, why not go back in time and put a fence between the tracks. Give the station a nice old time feel.
Hey Nimby, this isn't from my memories (it's from a bus calendar) but check out this picture of a Freeport grade crossing from 1953. By the way, the Hempstead Bus Company still was running those exact same Macks in my neighborhood on Front Street on their East Meadow routes (today's LI Bus N-48/49) well into the late 60's.
Was Hempstead Bus headquartered on Floogle Street in the same building as Susquehanna Hat?
I get bored in one location too long, so my photographing style I guess helps me quite a bit. I have never gotten harrased yet (at least not recently, I had years ago, but that was my own fault, and another story). I usually don't stay in one place for more than two or three trains going through. I mean how many photos of trains do you need at the same angle anyway!
Why do you feel compelled to resort to juvenile name-calling? From what I've gathered, you're well over 50. Too old for that nonsense.
Train Dude doesn't like to be dissed, as I learned to my woe. I sure hope you don't mind being belittled and put down, as you're going to be getting plenty of it. Basically, he thinks that peons like us aren't fit to wipe his bung hole, and won't hesitate to tell us so.
Well, if you think you can handle it, that's fine, but let me tell you it's not easy being Train Dude's doormat. You have been warned.
Well, mikey, as you get older you'll find that quality is more important than quantity. BTW: You don't count each finger seperately if that's your criteria of more.
What kind of point is he making? That cops are cowards that sh-t in their pants? I mean I have to assume that is what he means by "depends patrol". And that cops would rather harass photographers than arrest real criminals? That is a pretty serious accusation. And an untrue one at that.
Surely you would agree with the following phenomenon, though:
- Cops are expected to be productive.
- You can be productive by arresting criminals and stopping crime, or by writing summonses.
- The vast majority of cops would rather stop crime.
- A few lazy ones would rather write summonses. When they don't see any valid targets for summonses, they pick lousy targets, like people who park 14.9 feet from a hydrant, improper lettering on business awning, subway photography, etc. The Daily News has a field day with the mischief created by these relatively few lazy cops.
I cannot understand why Train Dude has such a fetish about Qtrain. Granted, Qtrain's lifestyle leaves something to be desired, but TD's obsession is just plain weird.
Now, as long as we're on the subject, peter, perhaps you'd explain something to me. Why do you feel so compelled to defend this loser? Furthermore, others here are more critical of him than I am. Why don't you criticize them as well. When I suggested that you do, the last go-round, your response was "Not a chance." Perhaps you'd like to explain your double standard.
BTW, why do you seek to embrace the lowest common demoninator?
I thought I'd explained it already. When Qtrain makes one of his "Depends" postings, you have a habit of attacking his lifestyle, without trying to counter the point he raised. It sure seems as if you can't think of a good response to his main point, and therefore resort to a cheap lifestyle shot. Other people have criticized his lifestyle, me included, but they don't do it in order to avoid having to deal with the issues he brings up.
Looking back through the thread, it appears that your "see above" comment referred to something Jeffrey Rosen had said. I have him killfiled, so that's why I didn't respond to his posting.
"No one is totally useless. They can always serve as a poor example"
It would make more sense if you addressed the points he raised rather than poking fun at his unproductive lifestyle. For instance, the next time there's a "suspicious package" alert and he goes on about the NYPD wearing Depends, instead of saying that the police have jobs unlike him, try to point out why there is still a risk of terrorism and that suspicious packages can't just be ignored.
While the MTA cannot provide a sense of security for the most nervous among us. It must provide a sense of security for the majority. If banning pix taking makes the public feel safer then the MTA needs to ban photo taking.
The proposed photo ban is more scare tactics coming out of DHS.
We just heard Tom Ridge announce another "Al Queda is going to attack the US" item. No hard info, no increase in the "magic" threat color code.
I've heard it here, I've read it in other (non-rail) places: THE TERRORISTS ALREADY HAVE THE INFO THEY WANT!!!. It's all over the Web.
There are published works on the Tracks of the New York Subway. Hard copy - bound book.
I am sure you realize that the suicide bombers who blow up buses in Israel didn't use a photograph. They just paid a fare, rode and observed and planed accordingly.
I am also sure that the McMurrah Building was not photographed by Timothy McVey before he parked that box van in front of it. He had blueprints that he obtained from the city.
The World Trade Center was hit by two airplanes used as guided missiles because our intellignce agencies screwed up, and didn't co-operate. Read the 9/11 Commision report. I did, and what scares me is that 3 years after 9/11, the intellignce agencies still don't cooperate.
I look at a photo ban as just more "window dressing. It won't add 1 iota to the overall security of the New York Subway
I'd have to say that my tolerance for risk is different from yours, without necessarily being greater or lesser. For instance, I wouldn't try motorcycling, but I have little or no fear of terrorist attacks.
While the MTA cannot provide a sense of security for the most nervous among us. It must provide a sense of security for the majority. If banning pix taking makes the public feel safer then the MTA needs to ban photo taking.
I highly doubt that the MTA conducted any sort of ridership survey before proposing the photo ban. Indeed, I strongly suspect that if riders were polled, most would have the sense to realize that a photo ban would do little or nothing in terms of making the subway more secure. The MTA says that the proposed ban is the NYPD's idea, and one thing which seems clear is that the NYPD is extremely risk-adverse, more so than it should be.
Again, based on your level of tollerance to risk. Perhaps to the average commuter, people standing along the ROW(presumably) taking pictures might be a bit more dis-quieting than you might realize. Then again, that's what the issue is about. My problem is that q-ball only sees things from his "peter-pan" view of life. He's openly contemptuous of anyone who is more cautious than he is. He's openly contemptuous of people who do their job in a way that he disagrees with even though he has no idea about how to do any job. Yet he's also openly contempuous of people who make him feel insecure such as "gangstas." His constant use of the "depends" bit is just very disparaging to many honest people who want to feel more secure. Those same people are the ones - in large part - that support q-tips 'peter-pan' lifestyle.
False statement and illogical. If a majority of the riding public feels better because anyone speaking a foreign language and wearing a turban or a thobe and gutra is strip searched before boarding a train, should we do that?
Common sense must have some influence here. and your statement is unsupportable.
There's no logical basis for a photo ban.
Are you promoting a perception of security over actual security?
If the public feels safer if the C/R does a somersault before opening the doors, would you suggest that C/R’s be required to do somersaults before opening the doors?
It must provide a sense of security for the majority. If banning pix taking makes the public feel safer then the MTA needs to ban photo taking.
That's an interesting thought. Do you actually think that the MTA is proposing the photo pseudo-ban (i.e., permits required) because it will make the majority of the public feel more secure? That's the first less than totally cyncial potential explanation for their motives that I've heard.
Or maybe he, like me, simply believes that these "terrorist" threats are grotesquely exaggerated. It's not necessarily a matter of how much one has to lose.
HA!YARIGHT!!That's the one thing the NYPD and the MTA DON'T DO!Everyone in both places are full of people with ZERO common sense!If they had any common sense,we wouldn't be fighting against a photography ban.Not only that,I'd GLADLY throw a huge party celebrating the start of the People With Brains Era which will mark the end of the People With No Brains Era.
Da Hui
I arrived at IRM shortly after noon. The trolley parade had not yet started, so I boarded the Nebraska Zephyr for a jaunt down the mainline. The train itself looked good even if it smelled a bit musty inside. The ride was smooth and quiet. And yes, it was pointed out that this same train was used for A League of Their Own.
After the 40-minute round trip, I was ready for a ride around the loop on the Green Hornet (I saw it at the Depot stop earlier), but they announced that electric cars were not running on the loop because they were queuing up for the parade. While passing the barns, I saw that Blue Goose 4021 had received a front roller curtain, so I snapped a picture. I then made my way down to the area where they were gathered and saw an impressive lineup: Matchbox 1374, Old Pullman 144, arched roof 3142, the Green Hornet signed up as a Clark car carrying a 22-Clark Downtown front sign, a three-car train of 4000s, a three-car CA&E interurban, a three-car train of 6000-series singles, a two car 6000-series train, a couple of North Shore trains and some work equipment.
The parade itself lasted an hour and a half. When the Green Hornet was announced, the announcer added, "You may not hear this next car as it approaches." Sure enough, 4391 glided smoothly and quietly into view as a typical PCC would. All of the cars looked great, especially the three-car set of 4000s. Perhaps the only disappointment of the day was the fact that the 4000s made their only appearance at the parade and did not run on the mainline as I had hoped. I listened closely as they pulled away from the reviewing area and sure enough, they moaned and groaned the way any other prewar car did.
After the parade, it was time for a ride around the loop. 1374 approached and kept right on going without stopping. No big deal; I rode on it eight years ago. 3142 was next and it stopped to pick up passengers. I let it go hoping the Green Hornet would be next, and a minute or so later, there it was! We lined up at the rear doors and the conductor opened two of the three sets. It was a dream come true as I boarded and took a seat near the front. At first the conductor didn't ring the right bell indicating it was safe to proceed. He must have rung the fare register instead. The motorman had to help him out. Finally the right ding-ding sounded and the motorman bing-bonged the front gong. It was a healthy-sounding bell pitched in G. Off we went! 4391 looked and ran great. Because of the many curves, we couldn't build up much of a head of steam, but at one point the car did accelerate quickly. I listened to the doors at each stop as they opened and closed and concluded that they sounded very similar to the doors on the 6000s (imagine that!). I was so excited to be riding on the Green Hornet at last that I stayed on board for three full round trips.
After the third round trip, I got off and transferred to 3142, which was just ahead of us. It was a front entrance car. I made one round trip and decided to take in the steam train on its last run of the day. It pulled a passenger train of older steel coaches. I boarded the last car, a Rock Island commuter coach that weighed about as much as a BMT standard. By the time that trip was over, it was 6 o'clock and time to leave. My entry in the guest register summed up the entire day: outstanding!
Frank Hicks
Hopefully it won't be another eight years before I have a chance to come out again.
Honorable mention goes to the 4000s as well as the Big Orange South Shore cars. I rode on them for one round trip to Chicago just before we left South Bend in 1967.
And as I've said before, I remember the 4000s very well, but never had a chance to ride on them. The fact that the three-car train in the parade was signed up as an Evanston Express was icing on the cake because that's where I used to see them. My aunt admitted she's become an Evanston Express addict even though she has to backtrack from Howard back to Bryn Mawr after taking one from the Loop.
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=15340
This is an interesting article about why we should replace mass transit with motorized transport. It questions, why should we subsidize rich long Island riders going into Grand Central Station?
The article makes a point, if we took the jobs out of the cities and moved them into the burbs, the traffic situation would get a whole lot better for everyone. He went on to state that car sharing could be done for as little as $700.00 per month!
It's a good read folks but the whole article was nonsense.
Obviously Wendell Cox has not spent much time in NYC. Otherwise he would see that it is extremely difficult to move in Manhattan with the vehicles that are there now.
Move the jobs out of the cities and into the suburbs? Yeah right, then all you have done is move the congestion from one area to another.
This guys is a visiting professor at the Conservatoire National des Arts et Metiers in Paris. Good. They can keep him.
Good observation.
You would figure a city like Paris would produce a transit minded professor instead of a pro-motor hack.
That's the National Conservatory of Arts and Jobs
i don't know anything about it, other than the direct translation I did from French makes no sense. Et je ne rire pas.
"Arts et Métiers" is usually translated "Arts and Crafts", a movement in Art/Architecture of the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th Century. IINM, the CNAM is their equivalent of this organisation. The only relevance any of these guys have to transit is that there's a very nice station on the Paris Métro called Arts-et-Métiers.
Nothing but gridlock and additional spending on highways that are busy only two times a day
As for transit spending. It is time we start spending out transit dollars wisely. MTA currently waste billions on antiquated business practices mostly on the backs of people who drives cars
It makes me laugh when people complain about a $2 transit ride
the transit subsidy on Varazzanno narrows bridge is nearly $4 plus 50 cents a gallon on gas taxes meanwile MTA nyct runs long trains overnights, leaves the lights on in closed token booths, leaves MVM's on all night even though a simple command in windows NT is capable to turn off and turn on the computers according to the stations operating hours plus wake on lan if an update needs to be sent overnights.
Station angents - who needs them. Simply create a vendor program similar to NY lotto where local merchants encode metrocards in return for a small royalty. Presto huge cost savings that could be spent better other places
Yes, I work in Jersey City right near the entrance to the Holland Tunnel so I know all about the gridlock.
They guy just hates public transportation which is why he doesn't want any further expenditures to support the system. The car-share program at $700.00 dollars a month does not include parking, traffic tickets, gas and tolls. A monthly MetroCard is less than $100.00 dollars and you get much more for your value.
Yet another load of crap. I guess they're growing stronger dope these days.
The point of transit is to get people off the roads, rich and poor. When you buy a car, both the private sector and the government needs to shell out to support your purchase. They need to build and maintain roads. They need to build parking areas. They need to deal with the effects of pollution and the loss of open space. Having centralized urban centers with well planned out transit systems feeding them is the most efficient way to get people from where they live to where they work short of having self-contained factory towns.
BTW, I also think that the reason that the poor don't buy cars is NOT because cars are expensive as a stand alone purchace. Maintaining a car is where the expense comes in. Cars require several thousand a year in maintainence, INSURANCE, registration/fees and $2 a gallon gasoline.
This guy should be dead, like Robert Moses.
This article is just about the biggest over simplifacation I have ever come accross. How do you serve people who can't drive for one reason or another? What happens when all the cars break down in 5 years cause the poor can't afford to fix 'em? What happens to the cars that get into accidents? All this guy is proposing is shifting the variable costs of transit back on to those that can ill afford to pay for them.
The 1990s were a boom time for public transit, but now even with oil prices rising, even Los Angeles, long considered the highway lobby's largest bastion (never mind PE and LARy and all their faithful riders), saw the construction of a large commuter network (admittedly diesel, but it's a start), as well as two LRT lines and a Subway. In post-1950s america this is almost unprecidented, and it was repeated around the country in varying proportions. But now with oil prices rising, and public transit doing some demonstrable good, the people whose job it is to make sure we stay in cars are running scared. Thus the reason for this report and all the other stuff. We're gonna keep hearing more and more crap from the truely hardcore right denouncing public transit with all the old cliches they can spout. Really the only strategy is to develop a hard head to their idiocy and hope that some good statistics will beat their invariably bad statistics.
To a certain extent I can see where Mr Kocks is coming from, it'd be nice if we had a public transit system that wasn't a money sump, it'd make new systems a lot easier to sell. But it'd also be nice if our roads were't such a burden, and then you have airports, ferries, and all other expenditures the government throws money at and expects little or no return (the military or NASA anyone?), you can't justify cutting public transit when you have all the other programs out there hemoraging money left and right. People will not pay outrageous rates to have privatized roads (imagine a user fee for side streets in neighborhoods), and as such why should public transit have to prove itself by making money? The projects cost about the same, probably less if you think about something like the Big Dig or I-676 in Philly as compared to the SAS or Philly's Center City Tunnel, a rail project costs more to operate and maintain, no doubt there, but the efficiency and capacity of a transit line is vastly greater for a train than for a roadway. For one a crowded train does not crawl along like a jammed highway does...
Exactly.
Still, I'm saying that public transportation(meaning all forms, rail, bus, ferry, w/e) is not just for the poor. It just so happens to be that the poor are those who generally take advantage of such a system.
And what really pisses me off is this guy was sayin stuff like people without a car can't get certain places that people with a car can. That's absolute bullshit. Anyone with legs, a bike, or even a wheelchair can go just about anywhere a car can(that is, as long as the nearest transportation service is within a reasonable distance). As fast? In most cases, probably not, though that can be fixed relatively easily(more direct routing of buses, and longer bus routes, and better connection times.
But that's exactly his point NK. At some point building transportation services to everywhere doesn't make any sense because the cost so badly overwhelms the number of potential users.
And it's different from the Long Island pattern, which generally plays as a further extension of the Brooklyn and Queens transit lines serving an extension of the street grid pattern. I.E., east/west linear r.o.w.s fronted by commercial and retail areas and lined by residential districts off the roadways, with periodic north/south routes as you proceed laterally.
New Jersey is east/west oriented too, but it has an older history of being settled. The geography is different from the Long Island sandy loam flatlands. The towns are on top of hills, and alongside rivers, or near "forests". There are huge, huge industrial districts both old and new, and amazingly dense pockets of sedate residential sections next to them, intersperced with fields and other open land. Long Island has no place like Little Falls, or the rail bridge between Perth Amboy and South Amboy, or Gladstone, or even Fort Lee. Plus, there are honest small town downtowns all over New Jersey. You can walk along country roads between the towns. (Many with bus lines on them, like "the old days".) Towns actually start and end over there...
The trains generally run on modern day remnants of fallen flag roads, each with their own history and layout. You could easily spend a long day doing some ad hoc transit adventuring over there. Like, take a ferry to a light rail to a bus to a train to another light rail to a bus to a bus to a train to a subway...passing through 10 or more different towns and cities. You'll be crossing rivers and valleys and pass through old cities and spot hidden lakes and paralleling busy limited access highways and going under village streets with ice cream shops, shoe stores, libraries and movie theatres. It's a whole `nuther matrix over there.
His point fails because he fails to include the big picture.
80 percent? Hmm, how do all those poor people in rural areas where there is no public transportation get around? Pickup trucks and dirt bikes are not subsidized.
But he has no criticism for the direct subsidy of roads, waterways and airports. Yeah, what a point he's trying to make.
How 'bout we bury Wendell Cox alive with his idol Robert Moses. J/K - but seriously, I wish he would just go away and take everyone who takes him seriously with him. They could go live on some deserted island where they'd never have to see another train or bus again as long as they lived.
Good point. I suspect the writer is taling about people living in Downtown LA but in Manhattan, you'll ride right along side with very wealthy individuals.
It's your attitude that's keeping America from progressing towards the more sensible alternative.
It is so almost everywhere.
It's not just for them. It's for anyone with half a brain that knows they can save a truckload of green using public transportation
Except that public transportation in most places is slow, infrequent and inconvenient. Why would anyone with half a brain use public transportation in such circumstances when a car is faster and more convenient? And one wouldn't save a truckload of green either. In most places, parking and roads are free.
and probably save themselves a good deal of aggrivation too
On the contrary, riding mass transit provides a great deal of aggravation. If I were to ride a bus, I'd need to arrive at the bus stop in time for the bus, if I just missed the bus, I'd need to wait another 12 minutes for another one. And if it was Saturday, 30 minutes, and on Sunday, 1 hour. And I have to make sure to come home before Midnight (1 AM on Saturday night, 7 PM on Sunday) or else have to walk home from the all night bus that runs every 50 minutes.
All the while I'd have to sit around while the bus stops at every street corner and waits for oold ladies to pay their 50˘ fare with pennies.
If I were to take a car, I'd drive around quickly to where I needed to go, have the air conditioner set to exactly the temperature I want, the radio as loud as I want and the padded seat adjusted exactly like I want.
Of course, it has to be made somewhat convinient.
Well obviously. A car will always be more convenient. The only way transit wins is when the car is made sufficiently inconvenient, such as when driving to Manhattan.
It's your attitude that's keeping America from progressing towards the more sensible alternative.
I think you're misreading his post. He's stating a clear fact about transit in other parts of the country, and not his own opinion of it.
America will never progress "towards the more sensible alternative" unless urban planning shifts away from low density sprawl towards medium-high density developments with a transit orientation and walkability.
Not to mention other goodies like smoking your cigarette/cigar, eating, drinking your soda/juice/etc, driving barefoot, and other behavior that is verboten on Public Transit. If you like to indulge in such actions , then driving is for you. If none of that is important, then use transit.
On another topic concerning driving:
Most people who drive often cite that the time in their car as they are driving alone, is often the ONLY time they actually have to themselves on an average day. Between work and family, that time alone is precious, and that many people probably do not want some stranger intruding on their space, a common occurrence on a Public Transit vehicle.
I grew up in Mississippi where you could always count on room for five or six pine trees, two possums, and an armadillo between you and the next person. Like most people in the U.S. I was used to a cushion of space around me. When I moved to Philly it was unusual to crowd into a subway train twice a day to get to work, but you know I got used to it pretty quickly. As for time to myself, you quickly learn to shut out the world around and create a psychological coccoon for yourself. Now I couldn't imagine fighting a traffic jam twice a day. (I much prefer getting to read on the way home.) Come to think of it, I often hear that people who do commute by car hate fighting gridlock, too.
I think there's an awful lot of people who are fed up with their auto commutes, and would ride transit if only transit were available. It's the goal of the authors of the report that started this thread to make sure such alternatives don't become available, lest people start riding trains and buying less gasoline, etc.
Mark
The same goes for me. I tune everything else out while on public transit.
My I need a little time, I leave a little earlier and either walk across the park to the IRT or BMT or get off in Downtown Brooklyn and walk over the Brooklyn Bridge. The former adds 15 minutes, the latter perhaps 20.
All of those are legal on mass transit except for smoking.
Eating and drinking is not legal on certain systems, e.g. the DC Metro.
Did I not say we still have to make transit faster, more frequent, and more convinient? And even so, someone who can't handle a service every 10 minutes really needs to slow down.
"Why would anyone with half a brain use public transportation in such circumstances when a car is faster and more convenient? And one wouldn't save a truckload of green either. In most places, parking and roads are free. "
Let's see, b/c to take LIB, all you need is $72 a month, while driving a car requires gas, insurance, etc, etc. Parking may be free, but using your car certainly isn't.
"if I just missed the bus, I'd need to wait another 12 minutes for another one"
Are you serious? You're bitching about 12 friggin minutes! Geez. And like I said, public transportation has to be made more convinient, so the other things in that scenario you mentioned are moot.
"All the while I'd have to sit around while the bus stops at every street corner and waits for oold ladies to pay their 50˘ fare with pennies. "
Oh c'mon. Way over exagerated. First of all, no one pays with pennies. Second, low level boarding really lowers the amount of time needed for the elderly or anyone to board. Third, a bus doesn't stop every block.
"have the air conditioner set to exactly the temperature I want, the radio as loud as I want and the padded seat adjusted exactly like I want. "
Congradulations. You're the most picky person I've ever met.
"The only way transit wins is when the car is made sufficiently inconvenient, such as when driving to Manhattan. "
Which is exactly what will occur if what this person is proposing is done.
I have one suggestion for you. GET REAL!
Long Island Bus is worse than say, New York City Transit with longer waits and less all-encompassing routes. It is not an alternative to a car, it's an alternative to nothing. Also remember that Long Island Bus, even to achieve the level of service that it does for $70 a month requires heavy subsidies. If you subsidized them equally, then the price advantage would go away.
Are you serious? You're bitching about 12 friggin minutes! Geez.
12 minutes is a lot when compared to 0 minutes.
And what is it with this "friggin?" We need euphemisms for euphemisms now?
And like I said, public transportation has to be made more convinient [sic], so the other things in that scenario you mentioned are moot.
No, they're not. Since how much more convenient can you make mass transit? Have all the seats padded? Make it run every two minutes?
All the while I'd have to sit around while the bus stops at every street corner and waits for oold [sic] ladies to pay their 50˘ fare with pennies.
Oh c'mon. Way over exagerated [sic].
So what? It's still slower than driving.
have the air conditioner set to exactly the temperature I want, the radio as loud as I want and the padded seat adjusted exactly like I want.
Congradulations [sic]. You're the most picky person I've ever met.
We've never met. :-)
Anyhoo, why should I concede all those things that I've mentioned? I like sitting in a padded seat, I like controlling the air conditioning and I like controlling the radio. Societies that forced their people to sacrifice for the good of society for a prolonged period of time don't survive.
The only way transit wins is when the car is made sufficiently inconvenient, such as when driving to Manhattan.
Which is exactly what will occur if what this person is proposing is done.
Huh? If driving is made sufficiently inconvenient and transit therefore benefits, wouldn't that be what you want?
I have one suggestion for you. GET REAL!
You're the one who has to get real if you think Long Island Bus is an adequate replacement for a private auto.
And LIB is not an alternative to nothing. I'd much rather take the bus than have my mom drive me places.
If that's your alternative, then obviously you prefer the bus. Most people aren't restricted by law against driving a car, so it isn't a problem.
Most people should be with how they endanger the welfare of others. Either way, you might be surprised by the number of people who are restricted by law from operating a vehicle and still do.
It's when you force adn tell people they have to exist via automobile(and the hundreds of greedy middleman that comes from that) or else they can't exist at all is where the problem comes into play.
They shoulda thought about that before raiding gas and other taxes for paved roads. Now we have a bigger system than the Autobahns of 1945 that the Allies used to get to Berlin quicker.
I don't argue anybody's statistics or personal experiences. But I think that in the long run, mass transit is the only way to go. To illustrate my point, first click the link in post #734927, and then eliminate the quotation mark at the end of the URL when it says the page can't be found. There are 4 pictures, but check out the contrast between pictures 1 and 3. It's very simple:
Right now, anybody can be right by saying that cars beat mass transit or vice versa, simply because we all have different lifestyles. We go with what's convenient. So we can't decide on what's better by looking at things right now. We have to look ahead. And ahead is this: If each and every new person commuting who has never commuted anywhere before decides to use mass transit no matter how convenient or inconvenient it is for them, then in the long run, mass transit will win out and gradually become more convenient because demand is higher. The people will also be happier because there will be the open space of picture 3 as opposed to the open space of picture 1, and congestion will take longer to form. Maybe by then will have regular commutes in the 3rd dimension (up and down), and that'll take centuries to develop congestion.
On the other hand, if each and every new person commuting who has never commuted anywhere before decides to use a car, congestion will develop faster and everyone will eventually realize that the trains are going faster without expanding trackage, while cars aren't going faster despite expanding roads, and eventually evictions for expressways and main roads will become intolerable.
Therefore, I conclude that it is not right now, but the future, that must be analyzed in order to determine the better means.
For one thing, I think there will be numerous developments similar to the SOHO type of urban renewal in many cities. This will be good in general for the country. Plenty of young folks might stay and prosper in their respective cities rather than leave for the bright lights of the larger cities. This is an important consideration. Sure, it ain't going to change the transportation choices most people must make. But it offers viable alternatives.
Also, ever notice something? People who drive everywhere are generally more out of shape than transit riders. With exceptions, of course. But driving per say is not a healthy thing to do. I happen to like the way driving makes me use my observational senses to the max, along with my analytical skills. But I also like waiting for a bus on a busy street, or taking a train to the center of a town. It's a civilized thing to do. It allows me to use my observational senses and my analytical skills for other tasks than making the journey itself.
And people still never learn.
So the natural state is one with oodles of highways and parking spaces?
Manhattan wasn’t made inconvenient for cars. It came that way off-the-shelf.
And you know what I love about monthly unlimiteds that you don't realize untill you don't use them for a few years. It's a great feeling knowing that for the next 30 days, you can get around as much and as far as you want or need to. Even with a prepaid gas card it's going to run out depending on usage. That is the most awesome part of transit.
Besically the people who write this BS dont' live in sprawl car-oriented cities, nor do I believe they have actually had a real commute. There isn't a newsppaer or human being that beleives this crap alive.
You mean like in the Gretchen Wilson video??? If so, then I'm dyin to move to Tampa to hang with you man!
And too pretty much summarize how I feel about what you said above, HELL YEAH!
I always wanted one of those full size with the big tires trucks(or just a full size 6-cyl car). But traffic has me so mad I have to say what a dude at the bus stop told me.
"Why would you pay 30grand for a new car if you can't use it???" After I told him I measured this road to average 12mph from end to end.
Anyway, there's parks and ranches in Orlando that let you go muddin with the big trucks. You can see them driving around the streets covered. There's a push for laws banning this apparnently due to environmental damage. I don't see a problem. They plow land for subdivisions everyday that's about the size of 30 of those dirt tracks. Daily. Who's banning that?
Anyway, if you do get shipped over here, hopefully they'll build the LRT so you can enjoy that too.
Yeah!
"There's a push for laws banning this apparnently due to environmental damage."
Environmental damage!? What the hell kinda environmental damage could they be doing? As long as it's not like they go and just make a new mud/dirt pit every day. Stupid NIMBYs
This sorta thing would be my only incentive to get a car(well, a truck). Probably that new Chevy pickup concept they commin out with. That thing is like a Silverado on steroids.
I agree with you though. As much of a tree-hugging hippie that I am(rush's words, not mine), I don't see a problem with a one acre plot of mud bogging. They take proabably 50 acres a day and pave it over for highways and houses(less now with the chinese concrete shortage crisis).
It's not really a new version of the Silverado. It's called the Cheyenne(or however you spell it). Atleast from what I remember from the auto show, it was HUGE!
I'll admit, at heart, I'm a road man. I love being on long trips just rollin down a highway. That's probably the trucker in me(I'll probably get into the biz for a few years for kicks, but I'm not makin it a career).
I thought about that actually. At the time I was more serious about it I didn't have the money for driving school(yes unlike cars they actually were taught how to drive). Now i have it put off for mid-life crisis. But I'm still looking for ANY job that will allow me to travel! My plan was to dabble in my major for a few years until i burn out(which typically happens in 90 day for me!), then move on.
If you notice my threads, i'm always pro-trucker. They shoudl be exempt from most tolls etc. If they or I(me?) are going from city A to City C via City B, and are held up in city b for hours due to little cars using the INTERstate to go a few exits, that's abuse of the system and holds everyone up. One of my arguments for transit, and HOT lanes with truck and bus exemptions.
In my perfect world.
I saw trucks and buses should have their own lane when it comes to bridges and tunnels. Not so sure bout highway though...maybe.
Your ideas about lowering investment in interstate highways and reducing the number of lanes will cause great hardships to communities which rely on trucks to deliver their goods. There is/was a saying in the UK - 'if you bought it, a truck brought it.' Like it or not, trucks are as vital to a country's economy as many other things you might care to mention and it simply does not make sense to tax them ever higher in the hope that they might just 'go away'. The bottom line is they wont, no matter to what extent your government chooses to tax them. As I have stated above, any extra transport costs are passed straight on to the end consumer. Thus, your theory basically envisages more remote, truck-reliant communties, through their higher costs as a result of truck taxes, paying for 'investment in urban development'.
No sane individual would argue that freight trains and freight train operating companies should be taxed. So why should trucks and truck operators? After all, they are both serving the same purpose - i.e. to distribute goods. If the government were to subsidise freight train operations, then maybe more freight would be taken off the road (a similar scheme operates in the UK, by the way). But like it or not, for a high percentage of goods, their is no alternative to distribution by truck, and taxing them ever higher will never solve any problems. Perhaps increasing the tax on huge SUVs and such which people drive for the sole reason that 'they look good', might be a more sensible soloution.
GOOD! Then maybe these people will reconsider living in an area that's too expensive for them to afford and the rest of us will no longer have to subsidize their expensive living arrangements.
Still, I like that downsizing notion you mentioned. Although I'm sure it leaves plenty of room for circumstantal fine tuning, such as the routing of a transit line along an expressway. That's an old idea but it surprisingly seems to work in some areas. It's fascinating stuff: here's an area that's been exit ramps and big highway signs and nary a stroller in sight now boasting train platforms and pedestrian traffic and walk-to-able stores and businesses. The kids in these neighborhoods surely would favor this development! So there, another argument in favor of transit. Why plan EVERYTHING for the benefit of the old fogies? Gotta think of the young'uns too. The future old fogies.
Let's say You are driving from Tampa to Jacksonville. I can't think of any other close cities that are a straight shot. There's a major metro called Orlando in the middle.
If you're a car, or a Mail run or a UPS(big-rig) driver and you ahve to do this run, you will be held up and not have an easy and efficient time. Why? Because there are between 200,000 and 300,000 other cars on the road using the system to travel a few exits. These people are holding you up to shave 5-10 minutes off their in-town commute. That's pretty selfish. Not to mention unnecessary for a percentage of those drivers. Why couldn't they take a bus or train if available?
That's an arguement for transit, and HOT lanes. That's also why HOT lanes should be made free to trucks and buses, the primary purpose of the system. Beltways and bypasses, if you don't give it to them for free, at least be a discount. These guys already pay an arm and a leg in user taxes and fee's depending on their base state.
Besides that, my goal would be to get these trucks through and around the cities the quickest way possible, without idling, which wastes gas, gas tax, drivers aren't getting paid, and pollution, not to mention danger. A city with a highway straight through from end to end with possibly HOT lanes in the median, put the trucks on them, no stop and go, no wasted gas emissions and poor economy. Description here, but they took the picture down
A beltway I could go either way on. But traffic, like water moves where there's the least amount of friction(traffic or tolls).
Then there's the trans-texas corridor with truck only lanes completely sepatarated, and Tampa's I-4 connector just for trucks to the port.
What I like about this is there's probably tons of solutations to talk about. Unlike this typical crap where I'm being "saved" from subsidizing transit and I end up paying more to subsidize roads, insurance, and myself.
I would replace taxes with user fees.
Most people complain there, but Orlando has an extremely high toll vs free road ratio(they even got them on regular avenues), and if you ask me, it actually works there. :)
I got rid of my car for one reason and one reason alone, the one you put in all-caps. My annual insurace cost was more than the value of the car itself. Considering I only drove 5000 miles per year, there was no way I was going to pay through the nose for the right to park the thing in front of my house for another year. SEPTA has its faults, but in West Philly the service is good enough to make car-free leaving very feasible, so I just got rid of the thing.
I guess you could say part of the money I saved paid for my new digital camera outfit. Not a bad swap if you ask me.
Mark
"The article makes a point, if we took the jobs out of the cities and moved them into the burbs, the traffic situation would get a whole lot better for everyone."
False. I live in that situation, along with millions of others. There isn't a single newspaper, magazine or engineer who wouldn't start laughing at you from this line.
Traditional city, everyone come in the morning and going out in the afternoon.
Today's city, people traving in ALL directions. Take a 4 way intersection. That sucker is backed up in ALL directions. Reverse commuting saving you time? Not here. It's nice not having any backups.
Plus, cars must be faster than transit. Being in Orlando's SR50 runs at a brisk 16mph between "peak" times(Peak is in quotes due to the service industry giving a peak of 18 hour days). Pineallas counties SR60 during afternoon rush. A brisk 12mph.
Is there the usual 21mph train argument out there? If so then the link is toliet paper.
------
Subsidization? Let's see.
What's the richest companies, that are government mandates you must pay these individuals? Insurance. I can pay for life and never have an "accident". A 16 year old can get airlifted and be hospitalized for over $200,000.00 dollars. People like me will subsidize them forever. Everytime there's glass on the roads, my rates go up due to the area. Same basis for calling the lottery a tax. Did they complain in the article? Probably not, they like to overlook this tax.
I could also go on about road construction, which is the biggest industry around here, and how come the ROAD transporation budget for the state is the 2nd highest expense for tax money!
And road construction costs are too numerous to quantify here.
There you have it.
I guess they are not familiar with the concept of cities being for business and outside the cities being for growing food. Ah yes, spread out the financial offices over a space of 100-150 miles, that's good for communication . . .
And as others have already noted, what on earth does Wendell Cox know about the situation in NY City?? We already saw what happens when the railroads shut down in NYC—it happened during the blackout last year. To put all of those people into cars, we would have to build ten times the number of highways that currently exist and pave over an area the size of Central Park to provide parking. What's that going to do for mobility??
Wendell Cox ought to give it up already.
But you know what, when I commuted in the R3, I could set my watch to that thing, almost to the second on somedays, I never had a back up, a bumpy ride, nor have i seen road debris or people on stretchers.
I can't say the quality is the same for my car or by any bus(especially in these car oriented places, buses are close to random at times).
But yea, tranport policy, urban-transit, etc...man. Least the roads one I can see news links when someone feels like posting(me, on the other hand, I could seriously flood that board with how many local news articles i got daily).
But mention how you'd like to take hte train instead of driving for once, and all the Cox and Tool fans come out of hiding real quick! Those fools never even got the memo that air travel dropped off after 9/11 and went to driving(i don't know how even it is now though)!
I disbelieve this, because the monthly operating cost for a car(truck or van) is more than
buying a monthly bus/rail pass :-(
While I don't defend the article, that's because the cost of that pass is heavily subsidized through taxes while the fees of the car aren't (or as much).
-HUH!!!!
Mark
That's a LOT of money.
What I figure about the car from these "studies" is the fact that building an urban highway lane isn't any cheaper than a LRT line. The only two differences are that the highway lane won't last as long, and:
LRT - public expense, not much private cost
highway - public expense with a high private burden too
Spending 3 billion on highway improvements gives you a double burden using numbers soley. These guys forget the meaning of tax. Spreading out the burden so each person doesn't have to give much and the greater good will be fulfilled. I'd spend less on a train line than I would commuting in stop and go(aka kill your car) traffic. And that's factored in on gas tax, sales tax, costs of car usage, and monthly passes. Anyone out of the 7th grade could tell you that.
now repeat after me. "Fuzzy math who?"
Here's my summary of what he's saying -- there are many holes in his analysis, but I would be very surprised his general conclusion didn't hold true for at least one rail line that has been proposed in the US in the last 10 years:
Take a hypothetical example where you are planning to build a new rail line that will serve 100,000 daily riders. Suppose it costs $10 Billion to build this new line and it will then cost $200 Million per year in subsidies to operate and maintain it.
You could buy each of the 100,000 daily riders a new Honda Civic or similar car for $20,000 per -- or $2 Billion. You could then provide them $2,000 per year for gas, insurance and maintenance at a cost of $200 million per year.
The government would save $8 billion in up-front building costs. The riders would benefit in that they would be able to drive their cars anywhere -- they wouldn't be restricted to just going up and down a single rail line.
This type of "facts and figures" analysis sways politicians. Declarations of "It's B.S." do not.
CG
Before you do that again, get a sense of how much new rail lines cost. Only long-distance lines cost in the $10 billion range. Remember, the proposal is to replace transit with automobiles.
Los Angeles tried to be rail-free for a few decades. Didn't work.
Cost to build $1.1 Billion
Daily ridership (projected -- not actually realized yet) -- 6,000
Cost of buying 6000 people a $20,000 car - $120 Million.
Capital savings from buying cars instead of building -- $980 Million
Annual operating subsidy to operate River Line -- $18 million
Cost of giving $2,000 in maintenance, gas, etc to 6,000 people -- $12 million
Operating savings from buying cars -- $6 million
Total savings from buying 6,000 cars instead of building River Line -- $986 Million, or nearly $1 Billion.
JeffW made a good point about the life span of a "cheapo Honda". Agreed, it ain't 40 years but it's not 4 either. But, with $1 Billion saved, you could invest that money and buy 6000 people new cars every 5 years on the interest alone.
As respects new roads needed, NJ's road system is more than capable of handling 6,000 additional cars per day -- especially if you buy into the author's premise that giving people cars gives them flexibility. (i.e. they won't all be travelling on the same roads or at the same time).
CG
Not exactly.
Cost to build, and maintain and operate for ten years: $1.1 Billion
Another problem with that math is that it assumed that the 6000 people riding are always the SAME 6000 people. Re-do the calculations with the number of different people who ride the line, who you will need to supply alternate transportation for, over the ten years and see how it stacks up.
That's the number one flaw that I see in those types of analysis. The costs add up exponentially once you recognize that the people aren't the same every day.
CG
So there are (ignored in the original argument) capital costs for more roads in the cities, where they are most expensive to build, and additional parking garages.
Plus the eyesore factor!
Hey, people don't like having the holes in their arguments pointed out. :-P
It's a childish ill-informed way of looking at a situation. Nobody has mentioned the beneficial results of establishing new rail services in congested, over-roaded metropolitan areas. No city can afford to ignore this, if they're hoping to survive and prosper. A new rail line can bring a higher sense of purpose to a previously less coordinated system of internal transport. Adding new vehicles to the daily traffic count only makes the outlying areas more attractive, and the older areas less desirable. This can't go on forever...and anyway, the whole concept is a red herring. We'll sooner see pigs fly than the gov'mnt buying cars for us folks.
Let's not forget about NJ's high auto insurance premia. Circa $1500/year for basic liability will severely hurt many drivers' pockets.
As respects new roads needed, NJ's road system is more than capable of handling 6,000 additional cars per day
False. Drive on the arteries I mentioned during the week and you will concede that even 6,000 fewer cars will not result in freeing up traffic significantly.
And yet again, you have left out road maintenance costs from your calculations, not to mention the cost of building the necessary new road arteries that will be needed. Comparatively, the River Line will outlast any road artery currently in existence.
Oh, have you forgot about winter travel as well? How much does all that salt cost? Care to estimate for us the number of snowbirds that would use the River Line once the roads get shut down? Sorry, your sidestepping does not wash.
Please. Time savings? How long does it take people to get from their homes to the stations and from the stations to their jobs on these woefully congested NJ roads. If anything, a commute on the line likely takes longer door-to-door than the corresponding car commute. People take it because it is more pleasant than driving (which has a personal economic value, but not a societal one).
Re: road construction and road maintenance -- do these roads not exist already? Are they not already maintained. Is an additional 6000 cars per day (again, not all on one particular road) going to cause deterioration of the road surface any quicker than it deteriorates now?
Even at the most optimistic cost assumptions, your arguments do nothing to offset a $1 Billion difference in cost between the two options.
Whoops! Torpedoed your argument right there.
If anything, a commute on the line likely takes longer door-to-door than the corresponding car commute
Prove it. If your car isn't moving (most likely scenario), then your door-to-door commute will be longer than even if you walked to and from the River Line stations.
Re: road construction and road maintenance -- do these roads not exist already? Are they not already maintained
Not the roads you're gonna need. And the extant roads you cannot dismiss by saying "already maintained".
Even at the most optimistic cost assumptions, your arguments do nothing to offset a $1 Billion difference in cost between the two options
Which costs are you talking about though?
Then I'm assuming commuters are flocking to the River Line in droves because it saves them both time and money. Not!!!! Q.E.D.
Tell that to those commuters who get work done while on the train (or to their employers).
Aside from all the holes that have been poked in your analysis, the analysis itself hinges on a very questionable assumption: that the only possible reason one might ride transit is that one doesn’t own a car. I disagree with that assumption, and I suspect you do as well.
Hey, does that also follow that the only possible reason one might fly on an airline is that one doesn't own a long-range jet . . . ? ;->
Well, I'd say the full Metro North parking lots shoot that theory down.
The life of a cheapo honda civic isn't 40 years like a rail car. Figure in the price of buying 4 cars for every rider vs. the single train itself.
You also forgot to build these guys roads and parking lots/garages. Where are they going to put them?
SPeaking of 200million, they'd complain about operating a line for a few miles for that price, but what happens when a tiny interchange costs that much?
------
"State officials say a plan to rid the Bay area of one of its largest traffic jams will begin on schedule.
The Tampa International Airport interchange is where State Road 60, the Veterans Expressway and the Memorial Causeway converge.
The $192 million construction project should start in January, and will drastically alter the major artery.
Click on the link to the bottom right to watch this entire story -- our Extra on Special Assignment."
-----
It's not going to work!!! ALl the roads feeding and leaving it is still backed up!!!!! Does any "institute" tell me otherwise? No, they don't care. The trial lawyers and chiropractors will get rich off of this thing due to impacts at higher speed. That's all it will do.
Plus see ANY of my previous posts relating to accidents. People with just a broken arm are lucky, some of these clowns suffer for years.
We don't need to say facts because it is BS. These arguements in these "reports" defy commonsense and are even dismissed by officials(this just happened in NC this week). Only condo commanders take heed on these things. I haven't found anyone else in any scenrio who does. So I'll continue to debunk every non-reality for fun as time goes on.
Some of the holes are sooo huge and so commonsense defing, i'm amazed they even get press time.
A person in a car takes up more room than a person taking up only the space necessary to stand or sit, and breathe.
When you are parking a bus or train, you are parking that room that people take up which is only necessary to stand or sit, and breathe. When you park a car, you are parking whatever the size of the car is, which is usually larger than the necessary room.
When you drive a car, you generally pollute. Meanwhile, many forms of mass transit are electric or operate on natural gas, and even if they didn't, a typical bus of capacity of 70 people, even when only filled with, say, 20, must still be lower than the pollution of 20 cars.
It has been necessary to divert and even ban cars from certain areas simply because of congestion or smog. I have never heard of a subway or rail diversion that was in effect for any other purpose besides construction or renovation.
Don't have time to look now, but I guarantee that the death toll of mass transit per passenger is much smaller than the death toll or car accidents per car driver and passenger.
From here
That page used to be there forever, I just hope it's temporarily down.
*Don't have time to look now, but I guarantee that the death toll of mass transit per passenger is much smaller than the death toll or car accidents per car driver and passenger.*
The death toll is very close to smoking. I bet if you add in asthma caused by smog it would surpass it. You have people banning smoking in bars, and class action suits against the tobacco companies causing them to move offshore for protection. But a guy is about to jump off the bridge and everyone and the news talks about how he backs up traffic and people are angry.
Double standard.
That page, imo, is a must read and the best demo of that I've seen to date. ANd it's a few years old!
Board of Directors
Herbert J. Walberg, Chairman
Joseph L. Bast, President and CEO The Heartland Institute
James L. Johnston, Amoco Corporation (retired)
Thomas Walton, General Motors Corporation
Walter F. Buchholtz, ExxonMobil Corporation
Roy E. Marden, Philip Morris
David H. Padden, Padden & Co.
Robert Buford, Planned Realty Group
Frank Resnik, Medline Inc. (retired)
Paul Fisher Piper, Marbury, Rudnick & Wolfe
Leslie Rose, Fidelity Bank
James Fitzgerald, BankNote Capital LLC
Lee Tooman, Golden Rule Insurance Company
Dan Hales, Peterson & Ross
Lee H. Walker, New Coalition for Economic & Social Change
William Higginson, Chicago Equity Fund Inc.
Funding:
Funding comes from various private sources (ExxonMobil donated $15,000 in 2002 [2] (http://www2.exxonmobil.com/files/corporate/public_policy1.pdf)), plus several right-wing institutional foundations:
Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation
Claude R. Lambe Charitable Foundation
JM Foundation
John M. Olin Foundation, Inc.
Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation
Scaife Foundations (Sarah Mellon Scaife, Carthage)
In truth, who cares who they are? They are people trying to influence the electorate just like lots of other organizations, both liberal and conservative. Preaching hatred of them says more about the "preachers" than it says about them...
Libertarians are not entirely money-motivated. Some of them, at least, also object to governmental interference with any aspects of daily life - for instance, they're pro-choice, unlike true conservatives. Also, while conservatives tend to be religious, libertarians are not, at least in terms of being church members. They often view organized religion as an infrigement upon human freedom.
To keep things on topic, libertarians would be opposed to the MTA's proposed ban on subway photography as an unjustified restriction on freedom.
Completely untrue. That may be true for Libertarians with a capital L, but not for all libertarians with a lower-case l.
Authoritarians who favor tax cuts are traditional conservatives, rather than libertarians.
Perhaps when you grow up, you will realize that you are not the intellectual center of the universe and the only holder of the Truth! Or as they used to say in Brooklyn: "Who died and made you boss?"
"Libertarianism should be a crime"
"They are fascists who should be handed to the UN for trial."
Statements like these are what I am talking about. They have nothing to do with the rightness or wrongness of ideas. They are advocacy of eliminating people because they ideas are different from his. I don't care what he thinks of them. It's his advocacy of physical restraint that bothers me.
~
~
~
Barry Goldwater's first wife, Peggy, who died in 1985, was one of the founders of Planned Parenthood of Central and Northern AZ (Arizona Daily Star 6/18/94). But perhaps the most striking blow to the right to life came in 1992 when Goldwater took an active stand in opposition to the pro-life platform of the Republican Party. Goldwater opined that the GOP "will go down in a shambles" if the expected "anti-abortion" plank is adopted in the GOP platform. The warning came in a letter from Goldwater to Mary Dent Crisp of the so-called National Republican Coalition for Choice (Arizona Republic 8/7/92). Goldwater so motivated pro-abortion Republicans at the convention, one reporter noted numerous "Barry is right" buttons worn by those seeking to scrap the pro-life plank (Washington Post 8/18/92).
On Gays in the Military: "You don't need to be 'straight' to fight and die for your country, you just need to shoot straight." On the Religious Right's agenda in general: "Religious factions will go on imposing their will on others unless the decent people connected to them recognize that religion has no place in public policy. They must learn to make their views known without trying to make their views the only alternatives."
On what Jerry Falwell deserves for trying to impose his religious values on the Republican agenda: "a boot ... right in the ass." On Ronald Reagan's claim that he knew nothing of Iran/Contra: "[He was] either a liar or incompetent."
*REAL* conservatives believe that people should be free in the pursuit of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness so long as they don't harm others, whether personally or through the mask of a corporation. They believe that government DOES have a purpose, doing what the people or private enterprise cannot or will not do for themselves, and of course the defense of our nation, our people and our homes.
And then we've got the NEOCONS and the Libertarians they pander to. It AIN'T the same. And personally, I object to the hijacking and denigration of the word "conservative" by these hosers. :(
Yea real fair.
The only thing I agree with is the smokers rights(who banned smoking in BARS!!, come on!!).
The rest I disagree with their stances. Vouchers plain dont work. You're talk on the enviromental thing doesn't need further explaination. And deregulation of health insurance? Oh my god. How about I just sign my orgins to them for profit right now(it's a very profitable industry actually). Yea, let me pay more for insurance and get even less back. There's a reason people die from HMO neglect yearly.
I think i'm done with this thread now after this one.
James L. Johnston, Amoco Corporation (retired)
Thomas Walton, General Motors Corporation
Walter F. Buchholtz, ExxonMobil Corporation
Obviously, the corporations they represent have an ulterior motive in promoting cars over transit.
Mark
A bicycle. Maybe rides on a bus.
That's how he feels about them. He does pretty good. Lives in one of those "trailer" parks on the millionaire islands. One of those trailers costs more than a typical house however, so in those parts, you're still upperclass. I know I couldn't live there. Subsidizes his expenses by his work, keeps the rest in the bank.
But that says alot.
Got the rest of my brakejob done. APparently the heat melted some glue on a shim, so the guy finally get me some "economy" model rotors. Nice and shiny.
Anyhow, even if it's from just normal wear and tear, or whatever, I want these pricks to pay for it. I figure the board of directors get enough tax cuts and loopholes they should be able to bribe me to join their cause.
Brakes, struts, shocks, oil changes might be half the price of expensive champange to these people, or a time-share in the hamptons, but for real americans, that's rent money. They may not even have the money on hand. That's called hardship.
I hope Andrew Carnegie comes back as a ghost and haunts the hell out of these people. The purpose of these bluebloods and VP Dick isn't to sack everyone to get richer and create as many loopholes as possible. There was a point where you after you reach it, you create a better world. This whole thing with the buying power of america going down, CEO's getting billion dollar bonuses everytime they lay off a thousand is disgusting. YOu take a hit, i take a hit. What happened to top down leadership and follow by example. I lay off half my company, i tighten my belt. Not buy 3 more houses! And for god sakes don't be a disney, build a library or something. I don't see Joe Paterno following these ppl's leads!
Least hoteliers donate schools and buildings.
til next time
Next time you can use feedback to bring such thing to my attention.
Thanks
Looks like it is having lunch. Maybe the 21s and the 22s invited him over for tea and crumpets.
Elias
- Of the Mets four, Cliff Floyd seems to be the hardest to get, but mine was purched in the upper Manhattan, so maybe its just a local problem.
- Calvin Klein (white) seems to have been a very small distribution.
- JFK Airtrain, seems that they still haven't issued the balance of the distribution on the fourth card, i.e. the one that was given away the first day.
The one that I had a hard time finding was the most recentent Centenel MC in english. I found 20 spansh ones before I found one english.
Robert
According to Transit Police, the score is Motorists: 45, Pedestrians: 2, MetroRail Operator: 1!
Dylan...
Thanks,
Bob
Thanks,
Bob
Larry, RedbirdR33
149th Street (former Express station) had underpass
156th Street (local) had underpass (*)
161st Street (local) had underpass (*)
166th street (local) had underpass (*)
169th street (local) had underpass (*)
171st strreet (local) had underpass (*)
174th street (local) had underpass (*)
177th Street (former express) had underpass (*)
180th Street (local) had two separate station houses
---with two separate token booths
183rd Street (local) had station house and toek booth on DOWNTOWN side ONLY and underpass to uptown side from inside of fare control area
Fordham Road (former Express station) had a brick ground level station house with token booth on NORTH end with stairways to both platforms from fare control area
200th Street (local) had Two separate station houses with separate token booths (no underpass)
204th street (local) had two separate station houses at SOUTH end of platforms with separate token booth (no underpass)
210th Street (local) had underpass (*)
Gun Hill Road (Terminal) - stairways from ground level fare entry stationhouse
NOTE: (*) indicates a single token booth center of the "under-trackway mezzanine" underpass
Hope this helps you
Joseph Frank
NYCMTS - NYCMTA -
NYC Transit Modelers Group
Regards - Joe
Long shot of Steinway Low-V class train in local station somewhat like the Bronx 3rd Avenue El
Thanks, that's just what I was looking for! By the way, when I first looked at your first photo, I didn't even realize it was a model.
Thanks again,
Bob
And theres proberly more crossovers to the City Hall/Chatham Sq/South Ferry direction(when they were in use that is).
I think Bob meant and only asked for the "last recent active" Bronx 3rd Ave EL info and the Bronx Park station closed in 1950, 23 years before the rest of the Bronx line....I believe Bob meant the active Bronx remnant only from 12/13/1956 to April 29, 1973. I also know all of the over and underpasses south of 149th Street to City Hall and South Ferry but that was, is, irrelevant as to what Bob specifically asked for here.
(long ago dead info anyway !!)
Regards - Joe
(and BOB, Here is another shot from my Model EL system for you)
Anyways, nice photo. I just picked up 2 Chicago El 0-gauge cars myself today. Is there a way to make it go the direction I want without doing the precedure I was told(let the train light go on, turn it off, and then power it up and it should go the direction, if not the correct one, redo it).
Also where can I find subway style stations for the o-gauge stuff?
The "L" in Chicago is called that because "L" is the first letter in the word Loop.
Peace,
ANDEE
Anyone know for sure?
This is an appropriate police response. No railfan should object to being questioned, but once the benign nature of the photography becomes obvious, they should be left alone.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
If you're waiting for a certain train and you are observed whipping out the camera, photographing the train and putting the camera away, wouldn't that raise more suspicion if you are being observed ?
At least with my camera bag, I look like photographer. If a terrorist wants to photograph sensitive areas, he's not going to lug a heavy camera bag, he'll do as you do.
Be careful John, don't act too suspicious.
Bill "Newkirk"
I just hope that this chaos will eventually come to an end. However, I agree. Hanging around, whipping the camera out and putting it away immediately can be more suspicious than just taking a picture normally. I think there should be a medium between what was said about "quick pic taking" and hanging around a station for 20 minutes taking people. What I'd suggest is if you see something cool while waiting for something, take out your camera, take a few pics. However, don't loiter and whatnot. Of course, I'd probably be too nervous to take my camera out anyway, lol.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Don't expect any lessening of terrorism paranoia if Kerry gets elected. He'll be trying to prove that he's not soft on defense and national security, and as a result may overcompensate and be even more paranoid than Bush. The one difference is that John Edwards won't be playing the Dick Cheyney role in the terror fight, as he'll be too busy chasing ambulances.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040712-660960,00.html
"Individuals seen taking photos of landmarks and other potential targets are not usually arrested (it's not illegal), but U.S. officers check their pictures and enter their names in an interagency record base.
[... examples of suspicious photographer incidents ...]
Any or all of these incidents, of course, may have been innocent. But federal officials are reviewing them and urging local law-enforcement to be vigilant against a possible terrorist strike this summer or fall."
Remember, most CCTV systems can see what you are doing some of the time or see where you are all of the time, but they can't see what you are doing all of the time.
The goal here is to make it administratively hard for cops to do this sort of thing. They know that if they do, they are likely to have to deal with questions and paperwork back at the station. Easier to leave the photographer alone…
-Harry
SAS
But, idk, maybe someone can clear that up for you...
SAS
Uh.....nothing was wrong with R-15. Track 1 could only hold 3 cars.
I was hoping for Lo-Vs.
-Stef
I was at Kingsbridge Road on the 4 and saw the shuttle consist on the middle track, along with its friends R15 6239 and R33ML's 9016 and 9017. 9016's front rollsign was set to (3) 148 Street-Lenox Terminal.
A few minutes later after I got there, the train started running northbound on the middle track, and switched to the southbound track (to go to the yard.) I went up to the yard later, and saw it there.
I have photos, if anyone's interested.
-RJM
I have photos, if anyone's interested
We're interested!
-RJM
Gerry
The C/R said they were being used because it's the Centennial this year. He did mention future runs up until October 27th AFAIK... Maybe I'm extrapolating too much from RJM's picture, but may be the 3 will be the next candidate...
What station were you at anyway, RJM?
Kingsbridge Road.
Nevermind that these are HISTORIC Museum vehicles... Mightst well put out the
GARBAGE train and see if they'll board it.
Was there some sort of C/R announcement ID'ing the cars to the lucky geese?
No, many of them question it. I don't know if this was usual or not but many people were asking me things like "Does this train go to Queens?" or "Is this the (2) train?"
Mightst well put out the
GARBAGE train and see if they'll board it.
Most people would board it, IMO.
Was there some sort of C/R announcement ID'ing the cars to the lucky geese?
Yes.
Peace,
ANDEE
Fortunately Boston's subways don't hold as much heat as NYC's.
Gerry
A regular R-62A train pulled into Grand Central at the same time as the museum train. Somebody got on and asked just about everyone which train would be leaving first. He had difficulty understanding that that train over there runs on a schedule, while this one leaves whenever the crew feels like taking it out, so we couldn’t answer his question.
Now THAT is something I'd like to TAPE happening say...... Saturday Night...
8th Street on N/R... yannow how E. Village college kiddies get with the licorice...
Usually not lest the trips be overrun with foamers.
Peace,
ANDEE
The cars on the consist are: W/9306-6609-5760/E
Subtalkers there:
High Street-Brooklyn Bridge
David J Greenberger
Sir Ronald of McDonald
Bombardier
myself (Second Avenue Stubway)
Others who were there but I failed to mention, I apologize...but I know you might have been there and I didn't see it...
Thanks for a great afternoon!
SAS
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
BTW, what fence are you referring to that you apparently assumed that I stood on? Tell me, please explain.
SAS
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Voyages - "Trains Unlimited: Steam Trains" - HISI, Wed Jul 07 04:00pm EDT
Understanding - "Tunnels" - SCIENCE, Wed Jul 07 06:00pm EDT
Tracks Ahead - "Northlandz" - WNETDT, Wed Jul 07 06:30pm EDT
Modern Marvels - "Bullet Trains" - HISTORY, Thu Jul 08 09:00am EDT
Runaway (boy flees to subway after friend gets killed) - BLKSTZ, Fri Jul 09 08:40am EDT
Living Dangerously - "Train Wreck" - NGC, Sun Jul 11 12:30pm EDT
Engineering the Impossible ("tunnels") - DSC, Mon Jul 12 12:00am EDT
TV411 (subway tile maker DeBorah Goletz) - WNJN, Mon Jul 12 05:00am EDT
Tracks Ahead - "The Ghan Railway" - WNETDT, Mon Jul 12 06:30pm EDT
The Incident (1967) (a classic) - FMC, Mon Jul 12 08:01pm EDT
The Taking of Pelham One Two Three (1974) (even more classic) TCM, Tue Jul 13 02:15am EDT
Voyages - "Railway Marvels" - HISI, Wed Jul 14 11:00am EDT
Building Big - "Tunnels" - WNET, Thu Jul 15 04:00am EDT
Strangers on a Train (1951) - THMAX, Thu Jul 15 06:30am EDT
New York Underground (see subtalkers in action) - DTIMES, Thu Jul 15 07:00pm EDT
The Great Train Robbery (1979) - TCM, Fri Jul 16 10:00pm EDT
Money Train (1995) (woody & wesley) - TBS, Sun Jul 18 04:00pm EDT
Tracks Ahead - "Joshua Lionel Cowan" - WNETDT, Mon Jul 19 06:30pm EDT
If you turn on there now, well, prepare for a laugh. :)
Would it be possible to provide rail service along that EL, or is it too old (the station house is all boarded up)?
As for your question, according to the page on NYCSubway, the trackway you see was once part of the New York, Westchester & Boston Railroad. Only a small portion of it is in active use at the Dyre Avenue Line. Speaking of which, shuttle service was running from East 180th to Dyre Avenue because of construction on the White Plains El. Riding their for the first time, it really needs it.
IS THAT BUILDING RELATIVE to NYW&B or to EAST 180TH in any way??
1SimilarLooks9
-Adam
(fishbbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Hey, yeah.....
Chuck Greene
Your pal,
Fred
Subway route of the moment:
The
-Chris
Alright, click here for the thread on that carpet at GCT's Vanderbilt Hall.\
-Chris
I have (access to) plenty of great pictures, but I have almost no recolection of the sounds it made (acceleration, announcements, and most importantly, doorchimes).
So, does anyone have recordings of it? I remember someone said perviously they did, but never posted any links...
Thanks,
-Julian
-Julian
"Sebesta says a Bay area commuter rail system could also connect to a high-speed Orlando/Miami rail system. He says a company called the Global Rail Consortium has offered $400 million in private money to help get the project started."
Have I found this anywhere else so far?
No. But I hear on the radio it's more than Bombarider offered.
Now if only Branson can get in on this i'd buy shares!
Global Rail Consortium comprising Korean Railroad Technical Corporation, Arcadis, a design and engineering firm, Also Lockheed and Centex-Rooney. They had proposed used TGV trainsets.They later switched to new Korean ones.
Wheels in motion for light rail project
Wednesday, July 7, 2004
The Tampa Bay Commuter Rail Authority is taking steps to make the dream of a local light rail system a reality.
"We're going to build this sucker unless somebody stops us," said state Senator Jim Sebesta.
Sebesta is pushing the idea of a light rail system to carry commuters from Hernando to Manatee, and from Pinellas to Polk. But once the commuters get to the train station, how will they get to their destinations?
Hernando County resident Len Tria has checked out light rail systems in Dallas, St. Louis and Portland. He says successful systems have one thing in common.
"Every light rail system has a bus feeder system that brings riders to it, every one," said Tria.
So now the rail authority is scouting potential locations for so-called inter-modal centers -- stations where commuters can get off the train and get a cab, bus or another train to take them to their final destination efficiently.
"We're trying to figure out how to put all of those mass transit systems together," said Sebesta. "And there may very well be more than one inter-modal center for each of the counties."
Possible locations for the centers include downtown sites in Tampa, St. Petersburg and Clearwater. The board hopes to have final locations picked out later this year. Then work begins on planning potential routes.
Tria says when it's done, it will be worth it to Bay area commuters.
"Everyone has to remember that a journey of 10,000 miles begins with one step," said Tria.
Sebesta says a Bay area commuter rail system could also connect to a high-speed Orlando/Miami rail system. He says a company called the Global Rail Consortium has offered $400 million in private money to help get the project started.
-----------------------------
This is interesting because it traverses so many counties. TONS of counties, some with over triple digit growth, and some built out begging for relief. 4 of the counties has upped it's sales tax for transportation this year too, the other has a maxed out gas tax. 2 of the counties are going to ask for more gas taxes and sales taxes either this year or next.
I wonder how this effects the one monorail idea too.
Looks like Randy Tool has a lot of work to do to come down here and tell us this is bad for us.
"Every light rail system has a bus feeder system that brings riders to it, every one," said Tria.
I think bus feeders are a good idea, but it's only part of the equation. Build TODs around the stations, too.
What is known about Senator Jim Sebesta? He seems to be pushing rail in a big way.
Mark
Even Orlando's going ahead with one of their FLxBRT lines that was originally intended for their LRT.
I still want to see big garages at the major stations though.
And this article sounds even more ambitious than some of the MPO plans I read. I even seen ideas for water taxi's and amtrack HSR.
R-32.
As for the bus, we'll see what happens.
R-32.
Not true.
What the HBLR and Riverline have are car parks! There is maybe a bus feeder system but without the car parks, both would be unsuccessful.
Thinking about #7's post, i think he's right, they do mean to add commuter in there somewhere. Hopefully they can add that before they get rid of ALL the tracks in tampa(downtown used to be nothing but trakcs and not streets). There's enough east-west lines to do it. Some streets I can go over 2-3 crossing or 7 tracks in a block.
woohoo.
Yeah, I remember that before they put in the Ice Palace. Next to 13th St. was a storage yard. Did you ever count the amount of crossings on Anderson Rd.? There's two sets of crossings on 50th St. alone for a total of five tracks!
R-32.
What you're talking about at 50th street is what I was thinking of. If you can't get something running on there even, then that means somethings fishy.
May be that was before the Ice Palace's garage was a flat parking lot. One of those stupid ones where they expect you to slip your money in the slot corresponding to your space. Who's counting!!. I remember that because I had to park there once years ago (1994).
R-32.
I honestly dont' have a problem with a monorail and a LRT as long as the two meet up under the same platform awning for a transfer.
Mark
R-32.
If pinellas can't even get a road built, how are they going to do a monorail wihtout blaming 24 cities on something being wrong like always? Least tampa had grecco, but todays county vs. city is pathetic.
Sebasta's going to have to do what I think Mica needs to do, get the funding(which Mica did) but just shove it in there instead of transferring it to maimi. I don't want to see the bay area get the billions, and then Miami will mysteriously get LRT as it disappears from our radar like what's up with tri-rail.
R-32.
Hear about the Crosstown? It's still sinking :)
Yeah, I read all about it in the Tampa Trib. a few days ago. This column only sank .3 an inch more than it's supposed to.
R-32.
R-32.
R-32.
Yeah that is alot ground for light rail to cover, but for us in Hernando Co. it's welcome relief. We already have a gas tax which was to rebuild Spring Hill's old roads. Now that's mostly complete. Hernando to Manatee though; that's about 70 miles. How fast do they expect this thing to go? Single track or double (probably single - at least at first)? Where will they get the right of way; or will they cheap - out and use the CSX tracks running parallel to U.S. 41? Too many questions with such an ambitious project. It will be nice to see how they iron these things out. I'll ride it if it comes. Hell -- we've already got a 'bus' system (a dinky one).
It's worth noting that when light rail does come, it will be another excuse to raise the rents around here, like they did when the put the expressway through.
R-32.
Which is interesting in how some homebuilders react. They should all welcome it like they lobby for highways. Pasco's housing prices went up 30% now this year from that expressway.
R-32.
The HBLR increased all the values of all the homes that live within 3 blocks of the line according to the Bayonne newspapers. Public transporttion does have some detractions but if you're a homeowner and ready to sell, you're basically in the diver's seat
Not that they don't go. But being able to get there by a train will always be a popular choice for partying youths. Along with the more important benefits of creating a more direct connection with regional urban centers, such as giving places like Brooksville a stronger sense of place. Then there's the new dynamics engendered on the employment situation. With commtter rail to the traditional downtown office concentrations now high school students will have some more options to ponder regarding their vocational paths. And the cultural resources become easier to reach too.
All in all, I will hope that such a development will succeed. Maybe then, someone will open a nice bakery where I can get some frickin' rolls...and crumb cake. Hardenst thing of all to get down there is rolls and bagels and stuff...
That's because they carefully marketed to New Yorkers - especially Long Islanders - with all the commercials, and home shows featuring Florida bulders. That set off the chain reaction which is responsible for why I'm here and, I'll bet, is responsible for why you're here. That is to say, someone officially retires from NYPD or Transit, or the post office, then they love it and tell another family member. The second party tells another member (maybe a young couple looking to settle down. Then....don't let a daughter get divorced with kids and have to move in with her parents - in Florida - there's alot of that down here.
But from the people I've talked to down there, it's not a normal thing for them to consider going into Tampa, say, to hang out in "cool" city neighborhoods, or to go to Ybor City.
Well I don't know who you talked to, but that's not practically true; especially from Springhill. I went to Tampa to college - leave alone to party. Springhill has next to nothing to do in terms of nightlife -- Brooksville has even less. Don't misread the map or the people telling you things; Brooksville is a country town - full of the old southerners. If you wanted any excitement, you needed to travel South; at least to New Port Richey, but usually Tampa or Clearwater. As such, I've been to Tampa so many times and to many clubs - and yes, Ybor City. Despite all this talk of progress, this is still the South. As such, you only get as much things to do as you know people. The more people you get to know over time, generally, the more there is for you to do.
That said, this is why it sucks down here for single folks - well Tampa is a little bit better. Any public transportation system that makes travel to Tampa more feasible is needed.
BTW ... Whereabout do you live? Give me some names of folks you know in Springhill and Brooksville. I've been here 15 years and went to high school here. You can e-mail me if you don't want to tell on this site.
R-32.
I keep trying to figure out which is more southern, here or Orlando. Then I get to thinking, what other place do you have a bullriding "club" accross the street from a place called NYPD pizza in a DOWNTOWN other than Orlando.
I guess yanks and rebels can coincide to a certain extent.
And a LRT would help Ybor out a lot(along with channelside). Check out any other city or college town with GOOD public transit to bar area's when it comes time. They prove to be popular.
That was a great analysis of the situation in your neck of the woods. It was very useful.
p.s.: I once checked out just how far along RT. 19 could someone take public buses going south from around CR 50 (Weeki Wachee (sp?)) to around Tampa. One of the Brooksville bus routes does travel on it but then theres a gap until Hudson. Turned out that it could be done from the Hudson area, anyway. You would have to pay seperate fares each time, but the transfers themselves would be simply getting off one side of the street and walking across the corner to where the next counties' RT. 19 bus route passes. I think it was four different systems in all. Made me wonder if there were many statewide busfans who do trips like that. It would be like going from Williamsburg, Brooklyn to Patchog)ue, Long Island by bus, which I've done and it took four buses to do it. (B53 to N6 to N72 to S40)
That'd be maybe 50-60 miles, same distance as tampa to disney. Though according to the [slur deleted] HR people in that area I'm too far away, even though i'm the same distance and half the time here as i would be in Sanford, go figure.
Find me a gas station that will give me a round trip of close to over a 100 miles for only $4.50(and a few hours too).
Hernando Co. buses aren't there yet. As such, they still use short wheelbase Bluebirds. You can almost forget it in Hernando.
R-32.
I understand PCPT wants to make the 19 every 30 minutes soon. If i had my say I would transfer the Hartline Flxible buses that are being scrapped currently and use those until PCPT can get some new buses. That would get 30min close to asap and leave some capacity. But nothing in gov't or business is ever done easily. :(
BTW, What i really like about the PCPT buses, besides their high floor and ride better than a new flyer, the windows are extra tinted. Why PSTA has these half done tint jobs I'll never know.
I did a gallery with a few pics
I typically like to get more and better ones, but I'm never around when they are.
So HART is finally getting around scrapping the Grummans. I was just wondering what happened to them; I'm seeing less and less of them. That bus was a flop for Grumman. It wasn't successful at all in NY.
R-32.
They've been running since the late eighties it looks like. 16 years is pretty good. Going to be all Gillig soon. Actually, and here comes some more dork stuff, I want to see the two electric buses coming in october.
R-32.
Not that they don't go. But being able to get there by a train will always be a popular choice for partying youths. Along with the more important benefits of creating a more direct connection with regional urban centers, such as giving places like Brooksville a stronger sense of place. Then there's the new dynamics engendered on the employment situation. With commuter rail to the traditional downtown office concentrations now high school students will have some more options to ponder regarding their vocational paths. And the cultural resources become easier to reach too.
All in all, I will hope that such a development will succeed. Maybe then, someone will open a nice bakery where I can get some frickin' rolls when I go down there. Hardest thing of all to get down there is rolls and bagels and stuff...
There is a bagel shop in Springhill in the 'Seven Hills' Kash 'n' Karry shopping centre. 'New York Bagels' I think it's called.
R-32.
"We're going to build this sucker unless somebody stops us," said state Senator Jim Sebesta.
According to David Pinero, who runs a Web site about rail transit in the Tampa Bay area, it seems that Sebesta is actually talking about what we would call commuter rail (like Tri-Rail over on the other side of Florida), but is getting the terminology mixed up.
And I dont' even drive the 5miles to the beach anymore. That traffic backs up for miles(hours). Why do they let 20,000 cars onto an island with only 1000 spaces?
I needed a more congested environment, so I tooled down to 125th Street Station and clicked away. I need to thank Chris Rivera for his excellent suggestion of railfanning there.
Homeland Security/Federales/Gendarme Note: I went over to the shack where a couple of nice ladies who work for the MTA were observing the trains and told them I was railfanning and not 'someone who's up to no good'. One of them laughed and the other acted grateful that I told her. No major calistenics on my part, just being courteous. I had no problem with anyone molesting me.
Yes, yes, the place indeed whelps trains. I know I didn't, but I felt like I saw every passenger piece of rolling stock that Metro North has. There were M-7's, ACMU's, diesels, and the good old Metropolitans and Cosmopolitans we all know and love.
More Photos Here.
I also went to Spuyten Duyvil for more railfanning, but I'll post those later. Nah, screw that, Here they are.
Enjoy the photos cuz I sure had lotsa fun taking them and reviewing them.
Your pal,
Metro
What camera do you use?
Your pal,
Fred
I would instead say that it breathes trains . . .
Your pal,
Fred
Anybody wanna guess what part of the digestive system Chambers Street BMT resembles?
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
Wassaic is the most northerly station of the MN system. I was up in NW CT attempting to fish (broke my fly rod), then attempting to buy some food (couldn't find Nodine's Smokehouse), so I threw my hands up in the air and went railfanning. Wassaic is pretty peaceful, just a bit south of Amenia. Enjoy the PHOTOS
Your pal,
Fred
More Photos here
Your pal,
Brewster
$800: This word follows "Oxford" & "Piccadilly" in Tube stop names
$1200: If you're on NYC's A Train, get off at Howard Beach in this borough to go to JFK Airport
$1600: The Metro stop for Montreal's Olympic Stadium is Pie-IX, named for this 19th century religious figure
$2000: The major hub of the Washington Metro is the stop named for this French planner
Final Jeopardy: What is the somewhat significant factual error in one of the clues that might make a railfan get a question wrong?
Remember, if you attempt an answer, it needs to be phrased in the form of a question.
Answers will be posted sometime tomorrow.
$1,200, (DUH!!!), Where is the borough of Queens?
$2000 Where is L'Efant Plaza?
Final Jeopardy - dunno. I bet $0.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd consider L'Enfant plaza to be A hub, so the word the is the only thing that really makes that clue "tricky" at all....
LOLOL
Quality answer-question :)
w.e.s.
$400: Get off at Sportivnaya in this city to see the venue for much of the 1980 Summer Olympics
What is Moscow?
$800: This word follows "Oxford" & "Piccadilly" in Tube stop names
What is circus?
$1200: If you're on NYC's A Train, get off at Howard Beach in this borough to go to JFK Airport
What is Queens?
$1600: The Metro stop for Montreal's Olympic Stadium is Pie-IX, named for this 19th century religious figure
Who is Pope Pius IX?
$2000: The major hub of the Washington Metro is the stop named for this French planner
Who is (Pierre Charles) L'Enfant?
Final Jeopardy: What is the somewhat significant factual error in one of the clues that might make a railfan get a question wrong?
OK, you didn't have to answer FJ in the form of a question, just somehow indicate that L'Enfant Plaza is not really the hub of the DC Metro system.
Thanks to everyone who played along.
And for those of you who care, Ken Jennings, the current Jeopardy! champion, continues to win and win and win. He won another $40,000 last night (7/8) and is now a 27 day champion with $868,960 in winnings so far.
IMHO they should reimpose the five-show limit and have undefeated champions again.
:o)
wayne
Take the "A" train marked "Lefferts Boulevard", and you will wind up at that particular last stop, with perhaps taking the Green Lines' Q10 bus from there to the airport with a Metrocard transfer. Then again, when get off the Rockaways-bound "A" train at Howard Beach, you have to make the connection with the Port Authority's "Airtrain" service for an additional five dollars!
-William A. Padron
["Wash. Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
If you would like the 2002 ridership data in Excel format, click here.
I've added some formulas that put in a column for every line, and an x in the column if the line stops at a given station. That way, say, if you want to see all the stations where the F stops, and their ridership, just sort the whole chart in descending order by the column in which the F line's X's are.
This allowed me to very quickly discover (with some quick use of the "sumif" function) following up on a recent discussion, that there are 16.6 million riders on the F at 7th Ave, Church, and beyond, and only 12.6 million at the local stations between Church and Jay that would be skipped by an express.
Click here
for the modified file that does this.
i wonder if the MTA tracks OOS transfers, like between the Lex lines at 59th and the F at 63rd...
Why was the Q running via 6 Ave with 6 cars and passengers?
-Broadway Buffer
David
Sorry for the error.
-Broadway Buffer
Are you sure they were passengers and this wasn't a school car?
-Broadway Buffer
That they have the right to do. The trick is to have a ticket and show up 2 minutes after the previous train has left. That way they can't shoo you off for 28 minutes (or longer).
Though I do visit other places sometimes. Still, Mineola is my number one photo spot.
I know they make cameras with wireless remotes, so you can frame your short ahead of time and then hope for the best, but remote viewfinder would be the bee's knees.
I absolutely agree with you that the technology has matured to a point that the bad guys will be impossible to catch and all the ban will do is annoy the honest citizens.
"There was a fence between tracks to keep people from crossing"
Wasn't this a standard thing at stations with low level platforms. Everyone keeps saying, low levels encourage people to simply walk across the tracks wherever. Well, why not go back in time and put a fence between the tracks. Give the station a nice old time feel.
Hey Nimby, this isn't from my memories (it's from a bus calendar) but check out this picture of a Freeport grade crossing from 1953. By the way, the Hempstead Bus Company still was running those exact same Macks in my neighborhood on Front Street on their East Meadow routes (today's LI Bus N-48/49) well into the late 60's.
Was Hempstead Bus headquartered on Floogle Street in the same building as Susquehanna Hat?
I get bored in one location too long, so my photographing style I guess helps me quite a bit. I have never gotten harrased yet (at least not recently, I had years ago, but that was my own fault, and another story). I usually don't stay in one place for more than two or three trains going through. I mean how many photos of trains do you need at the same angle anyway!
In this thread, I was told you had R110b sound recordings.
I would greatly appreciate it if you could send those sounds to me (jmhess@badgerville.org). I'm especially looking for a doorchime.
Thanks,
--Julian
My email is slaight5@aol.com
-Chris
Lol!
You do know that all piggybackers on Julian's threads die =) =)
lol,
Julian
(sorry, I really would like to hear those...)
Thanks,
Julian
Why do you feel compelled to resort to juvenile name-calling? From what I've gathered, you're well over 50. Too old for that nonsense.
Train Dude doesn't like to be dissed, as I learned to my woe. I sure hope you don't mind being belittled and put down, as you're going to be getting plenty of it. Basically, he thinks that peons like us aren't fit to wipe his bung hole, and won't hesitate to tell us so.
Well, if you think you can handle it, that's fine, but let me tell you it's not easy being Train Dude's doormat. You have been warned.
Well, mikey, as you get older you'll find that quality is more important than quantity. BTW: You don't count each finger seperately if that's your criteria of more.
What kind of point is he making? That cops are cowards that sh-t in their pants? I mean I have to assume that is what he means by "depends patrol". And that cops would rather harass photographers than arrest real criminals? That is a pretty serious accusation. And an untrue one at that.
Surely you would agree with the following phenomenon, though:
- Cops are expected to be productive.
- You can be productive by arresting criminals and stopping crime, or by writing summonses.
- The vast majority of cops would rather stop crime.
- A few lazy ones would rather write summonses. When they don't see any valid targets for summonses, they pick lousy targets, like people who park 14.9 feet from a hydrant, improper lettering on business awning, subway photography, etc. The Daily News has a field day with the mischief created by these relatively few lazy cops.
I cannot understand why Train Dude has such a fetish about Qtrain. Granted, Qtrain's lifestyle leaves something to be desired, but TD's obsession is just plain weird.
Now, as long as we're on the subject, peter, perhaps you'd explain something to me. Why do you feel so compelled to defend this loser? Furthermore, others here are more critical of him than I am. Why don't you criticize them as well. When I suggested that you do, the last go-round, your response was "Not a chance." Perhaps you'd like to explain your double standard.
BTW, why do you seek to embrace the lowest common demoninator?
I thought I'd explained it already. When Qtrain makes one of his "Depends" postings, you have a habit of attacking his lifestyle, without trying to counter the point he raised. It sure seems as if you can't think of a good response to his main point, and therefore resort to a cheap lifestyle shot. Other people have criticized his lifestyle, me included, but they don't do it in order to avoid having to deal with the issues he brings up.
Looking back through the thread, it appears that your "see above" comment referred to something Jeffrey Rosen had said. I have him killfiled, so that's why I didn't respond to his posting.
"No one is totally useless. They can always serve as a poor example"
It would make more sense if you addressed the points he raised rather than poking fun at his unproductive lifestyle. For instance, the next time there's a "suspicious package" alert and he goes on about the NYPD wearing Depends, instead of saying that the police have jobs unlike him, try to point out why there is still a risk of terrorism and that suspicious packages can't just be ignored.
While the MTA cannot provide a sense of security for the most nervous among us. It must provide a sense of security for the majority. If banning pix taking makes the public feel safer then the MTA needs to ban photo taking.
The proposed photo ban is more scare tactics coming out of DHS.
We just heard Tom Ridge announce another "Al Queda is going to attack the US" item. No hard info, no increase in the "magic" threat color code.
I've heard it here, I've read it in other (non-rail) places: THE TERRORISTS ALREADY HAVE THE INFO THEY WANT!!!. It's all over the Web.
There are published works on the Tracks of the New York Subway. Hard copy - bound book.
I am sure you realize that the suicide bombers who blow up buses in Israel didn't use a photograph. They just paid a fare, rode and observed and planed accordingly.
I am also sure that the McMurrah Building was not photographed by Timothy McVey before he parked that box van in front of it. He had blueprints that he obtained from the city.
The World Trade Center was hit by two airplanes used as guided missiles because our intellignce agencies screwed up, and didn't co-operate. Read the 9/11 Commision report. I did, and what scares me is that 3 years after 9/11, the intellignce agencies still don't cooperate.
I look at a photo ban as just more "window dressing. It won't add 1 iota to the overall security of the New York Subway
I'd have to say that my tolerance for risk is different from yours, without necessarily being greater or lesser. For instance, I wouldn't try motorcycling, but I have little or no fear of terrorist attacks.
While the MTA cannot provide a sense of security for the most nervous among us. It must provide a sense of security for the majority. If banning pix taking makes the public feel safer then the MTA needs to ban photo taking.
I highly doubt that the MTA conducted any sort of ridership survey before proposing the photo ban. Indeed, I strongly suspect that if riders were polled, most would have the sense to realize that a photo ban would do little or nothing in terms of making the subway more secure. The MTA says that the proposed ban is the NYPD's idea, and one thing which seems clear is that the NYPD is extremely risk-adverse, more so than it should be.
Again, based on your level of tollerance to risk. Perhaps to the average commuter, people standing along the ROW(presumably) taking pictures might be a bit more dis-quieting than you might realize. Then again, that's what the issue is about. My problem is that q-ball only sees things from his "peter-pan" view of life. He's openly contemptuous of anyone who is more cautious than he is. He's openly contemptuous of people who do their job in a way that he disagrees with even though he has no idea about how to do any job. Yet he's also openly contempuous of people who make him feel insecure such as "gangstas." His constant use of the "depends" bit is just very disparaging to many honest people who want to feel more secure. Those same people are the ones - in large part - that support q-tips 'peter-pan' lifestyle.
False statement and illogical. If a majority of the riding public feels better because anyone speaking a foreign language and wearing a turban or a thobe and gutra is strip searched before boarding a train, should we do that?
Common sense must have some influence here. and your statement is unsupportable.
There's no logical basis for a photo ban.
Are you promoting a perception of security over actual security?
If the public feels safer if the C/R does a somersault before opening the doors, would you suggest that C/R’s be required to do somersaults before opening the doors?
It must provide a sense of security for the majority. If banning pix taking makes the public feel safer then the MTA needs to ban photo taking.
That's an interesting thought. Do you actually think that the MTA is proposing the photo pseudo-ban (i.e., permits required) because it will make the majority of the public feel more secure? That's the first less than totally cyncial potential explanation for their motives that I've heard.
Or maybe he, like me, simply believes that these "terrorist" threats are grotesquely exaggerated. It's not necessarily a matter of how much one has to lose.
Frank Hicks
Frank Hicks
This past weekend, I just missed the R train FOUR times (twice on Saturday, once on Sunday, once on Monday) leaving 95th or 86th since I didn't know which schedule it was running on.
How can we find out what's the schedule for each weekend, since it always seems to change ALMOST EVERY weekend? The people at 718 330 1234 always get it wrong.
-Broadway Buffer
For example, sometimes there's a 12:28pm/12:40pm/12:52pm Saturday schedule out of 95th. Other days, there's a 12:31pm/12:43pm/12:55pm Saturday schedule out of 95th. Other days, there's a 12:30pm/12:38pm/12:46pm Saturday schedule out of 95th. And other days, there's a schedule I just haven't learned yet. Practically every Saturday it's a new schedule!!!
It's frustrating to just miss a train and wait up to 12 minutes for another.
Robert
What I suggest you do is just allow a little more time for your trip. This way if you miss the train you'll pic up another one and not waste time.
-Broadway buffer
I live in Bay Ridge near 86 St, so I have to take the R, but I think it has it's purpose. Its the only line that connects Queens, Manhattan, and Brooklyn with ALL local service via Broadway. And up until recently, that N was a horror on weekends when it terminated at Atlantic/Pacific on weekends. That sucked much more that the R does. But now it is much better.
-Broadway Buffer
Trip Reg. Supt#1 Supt#2
CTL 14:00 14:19 14:18
95 16:38 16:32 16:34
CTL 19:07 Same 19:06
95 21:07 Same 21:10
I have other somewere else but I can't find them. I alway hope that the Crew Reporting Center at CTL have the Suptlements for the weekend come up by Thusday to see how my job changes. This is very inportent to me becouse is a matter of making a bus from the PA or have to wait 45mins to 1 hour for the next bus. So I know how you fell about not knowing Broadway Buffer.
Robert
*This does not include two stations nearby like Broadway (G) and Hewes (J/M) or Junius (3) and Livonia (L).
I know a few that are long like Court Sq and 7th to 6th Ave transfer at 14 St, but I can't figure our what the longest of all is.
Anyone know or have a good idea?
-Broadway Buffer
Thank you
-Broadway Buffer
Easy. From the C (coming from Bway-Nassau and points South) to the E (going to 7th Av and points North) at any station between Canal St and 42nd St.
Other contenders are southbound 4/5 to 2/3 at Fulton, southbound 2/3 to F at 14th, northbound A/C/E to shuttle at 42nd, northbound C to shuttle at Franklin.
One particularly annoying one, though not terribly long, is E to 2/3 at WTC / Park Place.
As for shortest: probably northbound 2/3 to northbound 4/5 at Borough Hall, unless you’re counting simple level changes, as at 145/St. Nicholas, 86/Lex, Nostrand/Fulton, and West 8th.
Shortest I would say is 14 St from the BMT to the L
-Broadway Buffer
For shortest, I'd add 59th/Lex and Canal(6, JMZ to the NQ).
It's an entire city block!
-RJM
The big question is: which is longer? 8th to 7th or 7th to 6th. The Penguin Atlas of New York is at such a huge scale, that when I look at it some day soon, I'll try to figure it out.
I do know that 6th to 5th is the absolute longest distance of them all, but because the 7 train at 42&5th is really halfway to 6th Avenue, that can't be the longest transfer. If only there were a free transfer from 57&6th to 60&5th, we'd have a winner.
I'm pretty sure that would be the longest. 6 to 2/3 at fulton doesn't seem that bad to me (unless you get lost, it is confusing). I don't think the distance between broadway and william streets, despite being two blocks, is as great as between 8th and 7th ave.
Almost identical, at approx 4 short blocks each. Therefore northbound A/C/E to shuttle is longer because of the 2 north-south blocks you have to travel, for a total of 6 equivalent short blocks, i.e., 6/20 miles.
The big question is: which is longer? 8th to 7th or 7th to 6th. The Penguin Atlas of New York is at such a huge scale, that when I look at it some day soon, I'll try to figure it out.
I do know that 6th to 5th is the absolute longest distance of them all, but because the 7 train at 42&5th is really halfway to 6th Avenue, that can't be the longest transfer. If only there were a free transfer from 57&6th to 60&5th, we'd have a winner.
That isn't really very far at all, provided you choose the right entrance to the District/Piccadilly line station.
"St Pancras Interim to KXSP Met"
Now that *is* a hell of a long walk, but one end of it isn't a tube station.
Both of these are above-ground transfers. I think the thread is meant to be about within-system ones, in which case JohnL's proposal of Bank to Monument probably stands, so far as London is concerned.
Also Provenca L6/7 to Line 3 is a long one, too. But Passeig de Gracia wins hands down. It's at least 1/4 mile.
(Hey ! That's not "I before E except------" -- - had to check the dictionary ! )
I had to do that once when my Bakerloo Line train got stuck at Charing X because of a signal failure (always happens on the Bakerloo). Then I had to get a bus from Warren St to Marylebone.
Mind the gap!
'twas Charing Cross Embankment in between... :-)
I probably still have a tube map showing Fleet line under construction, back at my folks' home.
Now that *is* a hell of a long walk, but one end of it isn't a tube station.
It's enough to make me wish that trains from Leicester called at Kentish Town!
Other looong transfers are Court St[M,R] to Boro Hall [2,3,4,5], and 42 St [A, C, E] to Times Sq [1,2,3,7,9, N, Q, R, S, W].
Try any of the ones I mentioned in my post. Much, much, much longer.
Both stations used to have direct underpasses, BTW.
Franklin IND and 9th Street BMT require a lot of up-and-down.
-The L to the 1,2,3,9 Lines at 6th Ave/14th.
-The 8th Ave line to the TImes Square shuttle.
One of the shortest (or easiest) has to be the L to the N/R/Q/W at Union Square
The transfer from the 2/3 at 14th Street and the F at 14th Street is just as difficult.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
FULTON STREET any given line can be a real biatch to walk to/from.
avid
If I am thinking of the same scene you are thinking of, he is running through an old elevated freight yard in the Kensington neighborhood of Philly. The bridge you see carries the Market-Frankford El over the yard. Ride the El today, and you'll still go over the yard, only it is now overgrown and looks like it hasn't been used in quite some time. I think it's just south of Somerset station.
I'm starting to think that I didn't see a spur to Bay Ridge, and I think the yard was in a cut, so if those to are true, than it can't be Fresh Pond.
You're probably right on this one. Thanks.
If you check out the scene, do you see any R-series cars in it? No. You see the old "Almond Joy" Budd cars of the MFSE.
I do agree with the dumb tourist bit though.
Just don't do it in front of the train~
Sheesh!
A guy on PATCO once said the same thing to me: "You want to trade? If you sat in my seat 8 hours a day 5 days a week, you wouldn't want to videotape these tracks anymore!" Just one day a week would be okay by me, I thought.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Looks like the foamer's gonna get that old run down feeling !
Bill "Newkirk"
to link to an online album, use (a href=album url)linkage text you might wanna use(/a) (again substitute < for ( and no quotation marks)
You can see it if you're viewing a post with pics and use your browser's 'view source' command and search for 'img src' or 'a href'.
Did you board your ACMU at Grand Central? I noticed that neither one I saw at 125th stopped there.
Your pal,
Fred
If I go on to Nycsubway, and I click on the random images box, and I type in the url in the adress bar, here is what happens:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/aboutimg.cgi?bimg_6135.jpg>
see, little white x's.
If I click on properties, then copy the url from the properties window, this is what I get:
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i6000/img_6135.jpg>
P.S. you must include the http://www. in your url, or youll probably see little white x's too
It's img src= and not img src>
Your pal,
Fred
Yup, mee too, but what the people on the street do not want to be bombarded with pop bottles, nachos, sandwiches, and other stuff that some kiddies think is cool to do.
Elias
Your pal,
Dorito
You take a foil bag of nachos, you add the meat and cheese and stuff to the bag (I don't know what all the do at these rodeos out here, I limit myself to natural food like a hotdog (though it sures a 7734 not a Nathan's)).. in any event they eat this slop out of the bag with a fork.
If you don't toss this stuff before you eat it you are likely to do so shortly afterwards.
:(-
Elias
Hey I finally did it the right way>
I did get a shot of a northbound ACMU at Spuyten Duyvil though.
Hope your trip was fun and I'm looking forward to the photos.
Your pal,
Fred
Eastchester 5 express- Noise reduction
Woodlawn 4 express - noise reduction
Flatbush 5- Noise reduction
Flatbush 5- integrated mic
Manhattan 5 pelham pky next- noise reduction
Manhattan 5 pelham pky next- integrated mic
Manhattan 5 freeman next- integrated mic
Woodlawn 4- integrated mic
And on the R142A's
Recorded yesterday- noise reduction
Back from early march- integrated mic
Post your thoughts :)
story in Thursday's Star Ledger
Once that was a done deal, all the rest is damage control. Taking some of the passengers out of Penn Station, which will have limited entrances and exits isn’t a bad idea.
Since when do the govenor or the mayor have anything to do with scheduling events at MSG ??? People call MSG and schedule an event (if they got enough bucks)
What *can* happen, is that the mayor and or govenor can tell the political parties that their conventions are no longer welcome in NYC and to go hold it elsewither!
Elias
The exits to Penn that are being closed are the least used ones.
The 2 high volume street exits to 7th Ave will remain open as (presumably, I haven't heard to the contrary) the 2 high volume exits to the 2 subways.
The people who are being screwed (in a small way) by the convention are those who work west of Penn. They'll have to exit at 7th Ave, or else pay a subway fare to exit at 34th and 8th. They are equally screwed whether they come into Penn or into 6th and 33rd.
Depending on how rusted some of them are if you try to remove too much you could reveal places where the rust has eaten through the metal (they are all metal). There is no porcelan on any of them - just paint on metal.
The value of some vintage items can be reduced if certain things are removed. In this case the rust shows age and that can be part of the value (I watch Antiques Roadshow a lot).
The less they are exposed to air the better (or they could rust more).
Over all you got a nice batch of signs. I was tempted to bid but I already have a good number of the ones that were offered and am running out of space to properly store them.
Congrats on winning the gems!!
Does anyone know where these run and what tracks they are using?
A Brill 1930 motor car is making the trips on Thursdays and Fridays during July and August.
The trips are operated by the Black River & Western.
Does their line run back to the Delaware and then all the way up to Phillipsburg?
They don't. The Black River & Western operates between Ringoes and Flemington and farther northeast to Three Bridges, where it connects with NS for freight service. The track extends southwest from Ringoes to Lambertville where it used to connect with the Bel-Del, but the track from Ringoes to Lambertville has been embargoed.
I rode a charter in 1977 that was supposed to cover the entire BR&W, but a truck crashed into a railroad bridge taking it out of service, so to compensate for missing part of the BR&W, they entered the Bel-Del in Lambertville and ran up several miles and back again.
On a whole-railroad charter in 1998 we went to Lambertville Station, but that part of the railroad was subsequently embargoed.
Any equipment to be moved from the BR&W to the Bel-Del in Phillipsburg would have to go via NS at Three Bridges.
I havent ridden either the Thu/Fri Brill car or the Sat/Sun NYS&W 142 at Phillipsburg yet, but I intend to.
The BR&W provides a nice ride from Ringoes, and has some interesting equipment stored there.
PRR doodlebug
Burro crane
Erie Caboose
Maine Central caboose
WASHINGTON (AP) - The two-car late-night Metro trains are history for now, and may be officially scrapped real soon. General Manager Richard White says the ultra-small trains have been too crowded on most lines.
Metro started running them Sunday through Thursday nights on June 27, with an eye toward saving $1 million a year. But, it only lasted four days after hundreds of complaints poured in from disgruntled riders, who also got hit with a fare hike.
White says for now they'll continue running four-car trains at night. The Metro Board is expected to consider changing the policy in a couple of weeks, but in the meantime, White has leeway to run the bigger trains because of a safety issue.
4-car MUs should be the absolute minimum. I'd go with 6 for the Red Line.
Yes. A number of articles about the crowding have been posted to this board.
To be more precise. The on board train control hardware is spread between the married pairs The antenna used to control precise station stops is located under the draw bar of the married pairs.
John
Modernization projects at C. B. Moore [Columbia], Allegheney, and Wyoming have reduced the station size to 7 cars [actually 7 1/2 cars] on one side or both sides.
Wyoming and Cecil B. Moore were both shortened at the northernmost end of the northbound platform. 8th Street can still hold 8 cars. Strange that it can, IIRC, when PATCO took over the Bridge Line and the lower platform at 8th Street (thus eliminating ANY potential for free interchange between Ridge and Market-Fankford Line trains, as without some of the partitioning between the PATCO paid area and the Ridge Spur current platform, all you'd need is an elevator from PATCO to either MFL platform to have the interchange), the upper level was built (thus offsetting the opening date of 8th Street Station, as the current affair was built after Fern Rock, but before Pattison), and this was close to the time SEPTA shortened the other stops. 8th Street has some equipment and electronics and crew rooms on the platform, though... Still, it's weird SEPTA never alled those parts off.
And, from what you say, it sounds even more like married pairs would be PERFECT for the BSL.
Back to WMATA matters, I doubt very much they' go to single-units, no matter how needed they may be. I'm unsure of the amount of space used on a 4-car consist, but I don't think 3-car trains would fare much better than 2-car trains. Given the way WMATA set their system up, it seems as if they had PLANNED to use only married pairs all along.
The MFL, back in the days before the bus substitution at night ran every half-hour with a one-car train (one of their singles) and you paid the conductor who had a portable bus cash deposit machine.
BTW, a Philadelphia single car is easily recognized because there is a motorman's cab at both ends.
PATCO used to use a single car on that line, now they use a 2 car train made up of 2 singles [100 series], and keep one car closed.
Finally, the BSL NEVER had married pairs. The old red cars, as well as the old Bridge Line cars were single units. The current fleet are actually single units, but the 500 series are single-end [one cab], and the 600 series are double-end [two cabs].
It does. However it was decided than later rejected to run two car trains for late evening service.
DayOpeningClosingMonday-Thursday5:30 a.m.midnightFriday5:30 a.m.3 a.m. SaturdaySaturday7 a.m.3 a.m. SundaySunday7 a.m.midnight
John
Second, the trains are infrequent enough as it is. Four of the lines run every 20 minutes after 10 PM, allowing 10-minute frequency on the shared sections only. The Red Line has no short-run (Silver Spring-Grosvenor) after 8:30 PM, and their late-evening service is one train every 15 minutes. At that time of night in New York, it's every 12 minutes or so on most lines. Even the overnight bus substitutions in Philadelphia run every 10-15 minutes.
I do wonder, though, if an all-night service will be in Metro's future one day...
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Here are two reasons why you will likely never see 24 hour service.
The metropolitan Washington area does not have an economy that has a significant amount of people working in shift type jobs to support 24 hour operations.
System maintenance projects that can only be done when no trains are operating.
John
http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/bmtbway/bmt-broadway-lch.html
The platform and walls are in remarkably good shape, considering their age. I guess the fact that there is no customer traffic or trains rumbling in and out on a regular basis is keeping the station young.
Trains are stored down there so trains run in and out all the time .
Compare that to a station that never sees trains or passengers - 9th Ave lower - now that one really is falling apart .
I have no explanation why City Hall held up so well because although it doesn't get regular passengers, it does get trains all the time .
That one used to see trains and passengers - quite a bit. One of the problems could be that, although is it "underground" it is still indirectly exposed to the elements at either end. The temperatures down there are probably more extreme that a regular underground subway station. That would do a lot of damge over the years.
--Julian
I suppose it's possible, although maybe not *likely* that the 2nd Avenue subway line could use City Hall Under as a terminal for a 2nd Ave-Broadway route. Maybe they cleaned it up some to show it off to interested parties while discussing the 2nd Avenue project.
http://www.mcny.org/Research/FAP/subintro.htm
If you go to the main page www.mcny.org and use the "search" feature and use keywords like subway you will get other listings (including the individual pages for the above). If you use "elevated" you will get listings for various vintage El photos.
The MCNY will have 3 exhibitions on the subway in October (I don't know the exact dates or subject matter, so don't ask).
The el was standing and fully operating while the subway underneath was being built.
--Mark
We have seen other "false" starts on sections of the IND. This could have been one of them had events been different.
HA!YARIGHT!!That's the one thing the NYPD and the MTA DON'T DO!Everyone in both places are full of people with ZERO common sense!If they had any common sense,we wouldn't be fighting against a photography ban.Not only that,I'd GLADLY throw a huge party celebrating the start of the People With Brains Era which will mark the end of the People With No Brains Era.
Da Hui
1. Tracks 1-5 of NYP are extended to existing GCT lower level tracks, allowing NJT to serve GCT.
2. ESA as planned. New lower lower level of GCT.
3. New LIRR GCT level extended to a new lower level of NYP via a 3 track tunnel. The new lower level of NYP would be 8 tracks wide, 4 tracks total. However, only 6 of those tracks, 3 on each side of 2 center tracks would be used by LIRR trains via GCT. These 6 tracks would connect to West Side Yard.
4. New Hudson River tunnel, 2 tracks, possibly 3. The tunnel would be made big enough for double stacked freight. All 3 tracks connect to existing NJT tracks at NYP. 2 of the tracks would also branch off to the new lower level of NYP. These would be the 2 center tracks mentioned in part 3. Basically, these tracks would also have platforms(as part of the 8 track 4 platform NYP lower level). These 2 tracks would also have clearance for double stacked freights. They would also allow trains to switch to the 2 side tracks when traveling westbound. Then, at the east end of NYP, the 2 tracks go up, under the east river, and then connect with the lower montauk in the LIC area. There'd also be a new underground LIC station, unless the tunnel can be made so that the tracks can enter the existing LIC station, which I doubt.
So basically, part 4 allows for a new freight tunnel as well as for LIRR trains via Lower Montauk to go to NYP, making a damn good use for the Lower Montauk.
So there. LIRR has a new lower level for trains using ESA or the Lower Montauk, NJT has their new tunnel under the hudson, which is tied in with a new freight tunnel, eliminating the need for a cross harbor tunnel.
1. Tracks 1-5 of NYP are extended to existing GCT lower level tracks, allowing NJT to serve GCT.
Okay. Just make sure to dodge all the skyscraper foundations, subway tunnels, and whatnot.
2. ESA as planned. New lower lower level of GCT.
Would this be an expansion of the existing lower level or an addition of a level below the existing lower level? If digging under the current GCT, be VERY careful to make sure it doesn't fall down, or some tower doesn't fall down onto it.
3. New LIRR GCT level extended to a new lower level of NYP via a 3 track tunnel. The new lower level of NYP would be 8 tracks wide, 4 tracks total. However, only 6 of those tracks, 3 on each side of 2 center tracks would be used by LIRR trains via GCT. These 6 tracks would connect to West Side Yard.
Same comments as the ones I made about GCT, but I'm applying those comments to Penn Station as well.
4. New Hudson River tunnel, 2 tracks, possibly 3. The tunnel would be made big enough for double stacked freight. All 3 tracks connect to existing NJT tracks at NYP. 2 of the tracks would also branch off to the new lower level of NYP. These would be the 2 center tracks mentioned in part 3. Basically, these tracks would also have platforms(as part of the 8 track 4 platform NYP lower level). These 2 tracks would also have clearance for double stacked freights.
Could railroad tracks in the Metropolitan Area be modified to handle Amtrak Superliners? Could the tunnels? If so, then double-decked passenger cars would be no problem, and folks would have ample headroom in them as well. In addition, if Madison Sq Garden falls down in the middle of all this, who gets the blame and who pays to rebuild?
They would also allow trains to switch to the 2 side tracks when traveling westbound. Then, at the east end of NYP, the 2 tracks go up, under the east river, and then connect with the lower montauk in the LIC area. There'd also be a new underground LIC station, unless the tunnel can be made so that the tracks can enter the existing LIC station, which I doubt.
So basically, part 4 allows for a new freight tunnel as well as for LIRR trains via Lower Montauk to go to NYP, making a damn good use for the Lower Montauk.
So there. LIRR has a new lower level for trains using ESA or the Lower Montauk, NJT has their new tunnel under the hudson, which is tied in with a new freight tunnel, eliminating the need for a cross harbor tunnel.
Why not allow the "freight" tunnels to handle Amtrak jumbo trains every once in a while?
Hey, I'm just going by the ARC plan.
"Would this be an expansion of the existing lower level or an addition of a level below the existing lower level? If digging under the current GCT, be VERY careful to make sure it doesn't fall down, or some tower doesn't fall down onto it. "
I'm saying this as per ESA plans. In case you didn't know, LIRR is going to build a NEW lower level, beneath the existing lower level of GCT, so yes, I'm saying an additional level beneath the existing one, like in the ESA plan.
"Same comments as the ones I made about GCT, but I'm applying those comments to Penn Station as well. "
Yes, an entirely new lower level of NYP.
"Could railroad tracks in the Metropolitan Area be modified to handle Amtrak Superliners? Could the tunnels? If so, then double-decked passenger cars would be no problem, and folks would have ample headroom in them as well. In addition, if Madison Sq Garden falls down in the middle of all this, who gets the blame and who pays to rebuild? "
The current LIRR C3s provide ample headroom. And yeah, I bet tracks in the area could be modified to handle superliners, but remember, superliners require low level platforms. LIRR C3s cant do that, unless you have a low platform with ramps built here and there for the doors of the LIRR cars. The superliner doors would stop where the platform is all low.
And if MSG falls down, it'd be a gift from God, as then we could rebuild the original NYP (:
"Why not allow the "freight" tunnels to handle Amtrak jumbo trains every once in a while?"
You mean superliners? Hey, I'd love to see Superliners at NYP, but stupid LIRR decided to buy double deckers that can only stop at high level platforms. If they bought cars like MBTA has, then LIRR and Superliner could share the same platforms for the 2 center tracks.
Hmmmm.....maybe widden the space between the 2 center and put in a low level platform there.....yeah! But wait....then where will the Superliners go. It'd be impossible to build a connection to Sunnyside bound tracks. Unless Amtrak were to take LIC yard, or atleast just have the superliners there....that may work.....
I like the idea(though I always did favor simply running the superliners to Hoboken).
Let's just hope it doesn't kill anyone on the way down - and that a new MSG can be built elsewhere without driving the Company bankrupt.
T1-HighLev-T2-T3-HighLev-T4-LowLev-T5-HighLev-T6-T7-HighLev-T8
T=track
Highlev= High level platform
Lowlev= Low level platform
The LIRR into GCT may be worthwhile because much of it is in place already and it would free up space at NYP.
They couldn't bear it either. That's why things like the RER and Thameslink got built. In Paris, all of the terminals except Montparnasse already have some of their service diverted to the RER. Unfortunately in London, it may take a while before we see CrossRail and other new projects built.
12-9?
Most likely a report of something "suspicious" like a photographer or some donut sugar on the floor. :-)
Any word about the new layup tracks north of Roosevelt?
I remember the station reopened by 1:30.
The only police officers I saw outside the station were two traffic cops yelling at a driver who parked in the QBx1 bus stop.
-RJM
-Robert King
-Robert King
Another way to find out is to use some search engines instead of filling up the bandwidth with questions. Happy surfing . . .
If you want the answer here: 1994.
From teh tribune.
Yep, i'm gonna overkill this until I see a golden railroad spike in the ground.
Mark
I think maybe the Florida East Coast railroad would count.
Seminole Gulf Railway - 115 miles of track in fort myers.
Florida Central Railroad, now possibly a dinner train.
There's lots of shortlines that i think woud apply.
But I bet most passenger rail has those words in the name though.
The story that Hays Watkins came up with the name is pure fantasy. Watkins was a railroader, and KNEW that reporting marks ending in X are private (non-railroad) car owners (GATX, RBOX,UTLX, etc).
Best comment on CSX: The Baltimore Belt Line passes right over our property at BSM. Since things occaisonially drop off trains, we don't pass under the bridge when a moving train is on it.
I was inbound with our Peter Witt, 6119, and was stopped, waiting for a southbound CSX train to clear. As the diesels passed over, with the big CSX on the sides, a lady on the car asked me what CSX stood for. I replied "CSX, it doesn't stand for anything."
The name CSX is why all the cars it owns have the reporting mark CSXT.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Huh?
The Charter reads "Long Island Rail Road Company" The tickets were always printer "Long Island Railroad Co."
Elias
Under current NYS law, the word Company is not a valid way to show that a business is incorporated. The current statute requires business corporations set up under it to use Corporation, Incorporated, Limited, or some abbreviation of one of those laws. Fail to comply, your papers don't get filed. Your papers don't get filed, you're a general partnership. Of course, that doesn't necessarily apply to a corporation with an old legislative charter.
The roads named the most deadly to fourth deadliest in New York State was the Suffolk County portions of Route 25, Sunrise Highway, the Long Island Expressway, and Route 25A.
Over the past four years, the five roads in Suffolk combined have claimed more than 250 lives. County officials believe substandard conditions of the roads, high traffic volumes and an increased number of aggressive drivers contribute to the Suffolk’s high ranking.
www.news12.com
---------------------------------------------------------------
Another reason I stick to transit
I would do so too.
I know that this isnt that related to this, but in the papers a few days ago, it said that someone 'burned' a 20'x20' nazi swastika on a Staten Island intersection. I live about 3 blocks from the site it happened. I heard that the 2 sick fucks that did it were caught and the DOT tarred over it (from what Ive seen myself).
I hope that the Long Island gets safer soon.
-Chris {{Coming soon!=TransitPics.com!!!}}
Also many of the roads are very long and straight which leads to speeding. You can go on Sunrise Highway from Lindenhurst, one block after the LIRR overpass, to Southhampton with no lights, a distance of probably 50 miles. Can't say that in the smaller counties.
One road on the list, Route 25A a/k/a Northern Boulevard, is a very windy and hilly road from when it enters Suffolk County in Cold Spring Harbor all the way to Miller Place.
Queens Blvd, known as the Boulevard of Death, was #8.
You took the words right out of my mouth!
Also the deaths weren't broken down into categories. How many deaths due to DWI vs. mechanical problems of the cars, vs. driver stupidity.
Story here:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ny--court-mediacases0701jul01,0,4638346.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire
A woman walked in front of my car about 8 spaces from where I was toward the store she wanted to visit. She was walking very slowing since she was talking on a cell-phone, totally oblivious to anything around here.
I honked the horn, lightly, to tell her to move. She was stunned to realize that there was someone else in the world besides her and her phone. I told my wife that had I been further along in the aisle, the dame probably would have walked into the side of my car.
You know who would be blamed for that event, even though she was walking between two parked cars and not in a cross-walk.
I'd like to see a pedestrian ticketed for jaywalking, but that never happens...
After all, the stupid pedestrian puts himself at primary risk, while the stupid motorist puts others at risk.
David, you must be talking about those hand signals that drivers place out to signal that sort of thing, right?
Other than mentions in a Driver's Ed manual, I've never seen use of these signals.
Anyway, by yield to pedestrians in a crosswalk, that means that cars must stop for pedestrians in a crosswalk to cross in front of the car.
True, but Sunrise Highway is a limited-access highway in that stretch, and therefore suitable for higher speeds.
Shucks, and I was looking for a gay road.
Oh sorry...
I have found the worst and sacriest driving on the NE Turnpike coming back from Branford. I mean, I have nothing against driving at 75mph. I do that all of the time, after all, that is the speed limit out here. Heck I even drove 98 mph for a 75 mile run to Bismarck one night...
But there (CT, NY, LI, and PA) it is the road construction and the traffic. I have never seen such narrow, congested roads (and never mind that I have ridden on those roads ever since they were built... they looked bigger when I was smaller, and Daddy was doing the driving)
But the congestion is the big thing. Here the speed limit is 75, and NOBODY drives any faster than that. Do you know why?...
BECAUSE THERE IS NOBODY IN FRONT OF YOU TO PASS!
And *that* is what makes city driving so dangerous. People gotta get ahead of one another until a road designed for 50 MPH (or 40 mph if you are on the Merritt) has traffic running at 70 to 75 mph. And the cops can do nothing about it.
Out here (back in sensible ND) the State Patrol always runs their cars about 10 MPH below the speed limit, DARING you to pass them, which of course you *can* do with impunity, but that way the states saves money on gas, and the officers get to eyeball more cars and drivers that way.
Back roads are different. Speed limit is 65 on state (ie paved) roads, but those are ONLY patroled by Sheriff Darwin, and he does not bother with tickets. When he takes you off the road, you will never drive again.
Elias
Also not fun -- those parkway entrances/exits without acceleration/deceleration ramps. Floor it or die.
The Interboro probably didn't make the list because its not a very long road (5 miles long I think). Also it isn't supposed to have truck traffic and probably doesn't have the volume of other roads. Less volume, less chance for accidents.
Well, I'll stick up for the DOT on this one.
The road was built in the 1950s to 1950 specifications, and the area was urbanized since then to the point that adequate corrections to the road could not now be made.
The lanes are more narrow than what would be built now,
The guard rails are shorter than what would be built now,
It was designed for 50 mph IINM albeit it was once posted for 65.
OK it is poorly designed by today's standards, but that does not absolve the drivers from restricting their driving methods to the nature of the road as it exists today.
Elias
Billy Joel
Yes, this is BAD. I have never liked that. A kid was killed in Bismarck many years ago just because of this.
The driver in the left lane stopped to let the kid cross, the driver in the right lane assumed the ohter guy was waiting to turn left and passed to the right at speed.
Either have well marked crossings with red lights to stop traffic, or else let the traffic keep moving, and cross through the traffic one lane at a time.
Elias
help!
thanks
Signs pointing to the Brooklyn-bound G track said "G trains to Coney Island" (this would appear to be correct).
Signs for "F trains to Manhattan" were posted on the other platform, pointing to the Euclid-Avenue-bound track. Can this be correct? Wouldn't the Manhattan-bound F trains be on the Manhattan-bound A/C track, not the Euclid-Avenue-bound track?
In other words, shouldn't both types of signs be posted on the same platform?
On the other platform, where the signs had originally been incorrectly placed, there are signs pointing upstairs for the "F to Manhattan".
Mike
wayne
wayne
Don't belive the FBI, CIA or DHS is anything like what the NSDAP had.
In fact, the first two are starting to look like The Gang that Couldn't Shoot Straight.
BTW, during WWII the Government paid photographers to shoot scenes of cities, war workers on local transit, and people going about their daily business.
They have all been scanned, I believe in the National Archives and on their website, searchable by city/state. I stumbled on the site by accident and got 25 shots of streetcars, trolley coaches and buses, some in the Carroll Park Shops in the war years.
Da Hui
True - we have those dark, swarthy tans we get from staring at the brilliant white SubTalk background all day.
And those photographer's vests, fanny packs, rail-oriented t-shirts and the subway memorabilia hanging from our clothes just screams "Islamic fundamentalist militant terrorist."
And the foaming at the mouth when an R-32 F consist pulls in at Smith and 9th...
Truckers and bus drivers are being trained to be on the lookout for suspicious behavior (like "people taking pictures of bridges") and to report it in to a "secret" toll-free number where all information is logged and reviewed to see if police should be contacted.
I was surprised, though, that Ashcroft can do a pretty good job at holding a tune -- I always took him for a tone-deaf nincompoop, but now I just have to see him as a nincompoop.
But as we approach November with nothing else in favor of the incumbency, look for a neverending array of these politically-motivated Ministry of Truth sponsored events. After all, if there was a REAL terrorist attack on the way, we wouldn't remain at "national yellow" ... and the American people, being SO gullible, look to Biff and Bunny Anchorperson for their mood of the day and actually BELIEVE this stuff. LOOK! He's got a CAMERA! RUN for your lives! We all gonna die! :(
Weapons of Mass Distraction.
Back to the OP's experience, I think a lot of the authoritarians are going to rue the day that cell phones began to include a camera...
Your pal,
Fred
In fact, during the late 80s, they tried to do a subway in Havana, but the funds dried up once the Soviet subsidies vanished in 1992. They eventually resorted to using busses made of pink-colored carriages and double doors in front and back pulled by a 18-wheeler cab vehicle called "Camellos". Don't ask me how I know about that. :) The Feds don't want us "americans" going to cuba and partaking in the tinejeras/os trolling the streets of Havana and having a good time. Just pick up a travel guide from Cuba .. the one by D+K has a picture of a Camello bus.
Anyhow, I know that's off decorum, but I just had to interject that point about the Havana Subway that died in action.
Watch out, John. Remarks like those make it seem as though you're joining the Depends group!
It was his right to just refuse to show her pictures! Don't complain that your camera was searched when you allowed the PA officer to do it. You have a right to refuse, so it's nothing but his own fault for being angry. He didn't bother to use his rights, then he complains. I'm sure he's a nice guy and everything, but it's just amazing how stupid some people can be.
"This is yet ANOTHER violation of personal liberty."
If something seems suspicious, the cop has the right to stop you no matter how stupid it is. Its not a violation of personal liberty, what country are you living in?
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
The creator of this thread feels strongly enough about this incident to share it with everyone here, and I for one am grateful. We need to be aware of what is happening to our fundamental way of living in this country.
Obviously you do not share these concerns. Fine. That is your right, and as a fellow American, I will defend it. But don't put down or insult others who feel differently and express themselves accordingly. That is neither right nor fair.
Of course not - it could be a top-secret shortwave transponder decoding 128-bit encrypted messages from Osama bin Laden.
>>No wonder I dont go to the city that much anymore. <<
Yeah, you better not - John Ashcroft knows what you're up to with that Al Qaeda transceiver disguised as a Walkman. And his agents have plenty of fresh diapers.
-Robert King
It's REALLY time for America to grow a brainstem, no matter how tenuous the task might be. Our GOVERNMENT allowed the terrorists to take us out in 2001, the VERY people responsible for it are *IN* office and November's coming. They want to punish *US*?!?! Ummm ... reality check time ... last stop, everybody off ...
-Broadway Buffer
And you can't declare war on a noun. The war on terror will be no more effective than the war on drugs or poverty and will only end when this planet is devoid of consious life. The recent trends are barely excusable in a real war and not at all in a faux war.
I only laughed.
Car 6499 (I think) on an uptown (2) express train, about an hour ago.
May be subtalk should order some stickers too!
Well, I know some of u out there aren't afraid to vandalize subways.
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
It's very easy to make fake GO's:
wow....I know some people hate the G,but this is crazy....
- Karma Konditioned Car
Please watch what you do.
The 2 and 5 swapped fleets in 1995. Before 1995, the 5 ran R-33's and the 2 ran R-26/28/29's.
Would you mind if I used one of those pictures for a little mock 'if you see something say something' thing I'm doing? I have a few odd photos of my own for this project but could use more and I somehow doubt I'll be able to track down that train before they pull the stickers....
Our itinary is as follows:
Take the 4:54 LIC To Oyster Bay Train which arrives in Oyster Bay at 6:19. We then plan on going back to Jamaica on the 6:33 Oyster Bay - Jamaica Train.
If anyone's interested in joining us, reply here, and make sure I have a way to contact you tommorow.
Just a note, Zone 1 to Zone 7 Peak is $8.75 one way, Off Peak $6.00 one way.
Is your subtalk email address valid? If so i'll send you some contact info.
You still work near Flatbush Ave? I go to school/work right near there.
A: The "Q"
Regards,
Alex Trebek
You must transfer your photo to a website that accepts photos, then when the photo has a url, you link the url to SubTalk using the instructions previously given. Those instructions assumed that you knew that the photo first had to be uploaded to another website.
Yes *that* part is true.
You cannot post your photos on subtalk.
You *can* post your photos somewhere and then make a link to them in your post.
If you do not know squat about HTML, then get a book on the subject. HTML for dummies is more than you will ever want to know.
Even without doint that much, you can open an account on some photo site and just build a photo album there, and make a link pointing to it in your post.
You could open a free web site somewhere, that is a lot of fun, but most of the free ones will not let you post pictures, only pages, that maigh have pictures on them.
Or you could PAY to open a web site of your own, most may sites do allow you to post pictures directly.
HTML commands are inclosed in broken brackets < > and are called "tags" Usually there is an Open and a Close tag.
The command to post a picture is IMG SRC="http://yourwebsite.com/Photos/myphoto.jpg"
And do remember that it is an HTML tag (enclosed in < > broken brackets).
And *that* is about as easy as I could make it. So if you do not know what I said, then buy the book!
: ) Elias
Trust me on that!
HTML is fun and fairly easy. Get the book! Read the Book. Start making your own website. I recommend Tripod over Geocities for free web sites.
You will not be able to link photos, but you can link to a page.
See, here is a photo on my website at Tripod. I cannot link to the photo, but I can link to the page
Thats what I use for my pics on my site linked below.
-Chris(transitpics.com-COMING SOON!)
That option is best, of course.
Of course what I did not mention is that you *could* run a web server from your own computer. But if someone does not yet know how to post a picture here without that, then you certainly do not want to expose your computer to the internet in that manner.
There is web hosting software built into Win2K and WinXP which in the good wisdom (oxymoronn, eh?) of Microsoft, is not installed by default, but you *could* install it if you knew what you are doing.
You would also need a Static IP number, and/or a Domain name that points to your system, and an ISP that will permit you to run a server via your connection.
But you had better know something about firewalls before you try this, and probably want to host it on a computer that will do no damage to your network if it is compromised.
Elias
wayne
-Chris-transitpics.com-COMING soon.
wayne
-Chris-transitpics.com-COMING soon.
-Chris(transitpics.com-COMING SOON!)
At this station, trains appear to be running lefthanded on one level and righthanded on a different level.
-Chris
-Chris
That explains much. Thank you!
And at Fulton BMT, the doors open on the left in both directions. At Essex, though...
wayne
This route consisted of yellow then to orange until 2001 then back to yellow in 2001
(What is it with you and the Q anyways? :-|)
-Chris
IIRC,
Culver, pre Christie St
Brighton Exp untill bridge work
West End-current config
Sea Beach-GOs
-Chris
this train makes this sound IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Also, IIRC, the newer MARTA Breda cars make a similar sound as do the Millenium cars of NYCT.
Good work Mr. Trebek.
-Chris
This route runs to Flushing.
-Chris
-Chris
-Chris
It's the station that this train is entering.
Now for $1,000:
It's the contract number for the second car of the train pictured below.
NOTE: This thread is just for fun. No prizes (cash or otherwise) are awarded.
these two routes swapped each other in the 1960's and ran as the brooklyn IRT
this train was has a nickname as the HIPPO
this train was known as the train to the plane in the 60's to 90's
-Chris
A. What is this local station?
B. What is the express train at this station (that makes all stops the rest of the way northbound in the borough)?
C. What is the local train at this station (that proceeds to go express the rest of the way northbound in the borough).
In case you're looking for more subway trivia, feel free to look at my other two posts in this thread
Or if skip-stop counts as express, 86th Street, 2/3 express vs. 1/9 local. (But I don’t think it does.)
You board a train and claim the front window. To your left, you see a train of a different route—call it X—traveling in the same direction as yours. A few minutes later, you see another X train in the same direction on the right. The third one is on the left. After that, you don’t see any more X trains, but you hear them pass above you on three distinct occasions.
What is X and when did it stop working?
This lasted only until '68.
I am on a B. First I see a Q leave its terminal on my left; then I pass it on my express run; then I see one on the bridge; then I pass under three more in Manhattan.
Guess there's more than one way to skin a cat...
Dukakis: Kerry will fund modern rail network
BOSTON -- "John Kerry will be the best railroad president this country
ever had," said former Massachusetts governor and Amtrak board
member Michael Dukakis in a speech to some 600 UTU members at a
UTU regional meeting here July 7.
Kerry served as lieutenant governor when Dukakis was governor. "John
Kerry understood first hand the importance of having a first class,
modern national railroad network," Dukakis said.
Dukakis said Kerry's running mate, John Edwards, would similarly be a
friend of passenger and freight railroads. "The first time I met John
Edwards, he said to me, 'you don't have to lobby me about Amtrak.
I'm with you.'"
"But we are not going to elect the Kerry-Edwards ticket unless each of
us works precinct-by-precinct and block-by-block, knocking on doors
and chatting with neighbors and friends," Dukakis said.
Dukakis said he is "embarrassed" as an American that in most major
cities, "people go nuts" in rush-hour traffic, but for only a eight cents
out of every dollar spent on highways we could have an integrated rail
passenger network to rival anything in the world. "This is not an
airline-versus-highways-versus-railroad debate," Dukakis said. "This is
about America having a first-class transportation system. Moderate
but consistent spending" on rail projects would deliver such a system,
which would include modernization of Amtrak and construction of
high-speed rail corridors.
"This will never occur unless the President of the United States
believes in railroads," Dukakis said. "John Kerry believes in railroads."
He attacked the Bush administration as wanting to kill off publicly
owned Amtrak while spending "half a billion dollars rehabilitating"
Iraq's government owned railroads.
"The time has come to put public money into railroads, including
freight railroad rights-of-way," Dukakis said. Railroads should not be
treated differently than aviation and highways.
Meanwhile, the other guys:
http://www.narprail.org/r99.htm
http://www.heritage.org/Research/UrbanIssues/BG1263.cfm
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Regulation/BG1179.cfm
Seems pretty straightforward to me ... and I won't clutter with the budget requests from 1993 onward. Clinton tried to fund Amtrak and other rail, the Newties trashed both at each and every step.
You wanty rail safety, mandate cab signals / ATC on everything. The regularly occurring collisions and rear enders will be a thing for the history books.
Anyway, is this 'pro rail' stance like Clinton's? i.e., he's pro rail, but some of the biggest cuts to Amtrak happened when he was in office?
Mandate? Hope you don't mean mandate but not fund such as occurred back in 1950 when the ICC mandated that railroads had to pay for their own signal improvements if they wanted to run trains faster than 79 mph . . .
RRs who listened, like the PRR, got the message, and didn't drop speeds in the 50's. In fact, the PRR has cab signalling in the teens, and ATC was an easy modification of the existing system, which was why it was doubly pathetic the LIRR had to be dragged kicking and screaming into it - they already had 90% of the equipmenmt needed installed.
And yes, mandate. Why should the feds pay for it? The EPA doesn't pay for your car's catalytic converter, and never did. NHTSA doesn't pay for the airbags or seat belts. The FAA doesn't pay for collision avoidance systems. The NRC didn't pay for the numerous changes to nuclear plants after Three Mile Island.
BTW, the president dosen't draft the budget, congress does and we all know who was controling congress during those years.
In response to the post before yours, how does one explain the GOP controlled congress getting completely fed up to the point where they are actually being vocal to the press about their dislike about GWB(along with every non-brainwashed person)? How does one explain trimming an almost 400billion(how much we spend for iraq and afghan) to 218 billion transportation bill else the pres will veto it and the GOP controlled congress is still fighting it. How does one explain how amtrack approitations starts out at like 1.6billion or whatever, and they have to fight again with the prez who wants it at 800 million, and the GOP controlled congress has to fight that too.
You do realize there's only one person in this country who cares about increasing the gas tax. America doesn't care about 8 pennies per gallon if it means they can actually get home, or get around and eat. Who wants to take forever to get home?? What person who waits until the last minute to go to work wants to strech out that commute?
I spend TWICE as much money per gallon of gas. When heir prez was elected I paid 90 something cents. now I pay 1.80-2 bucks. That's a 90 cent increase, and this bastard is holding us hostage for EIGHT cents? Actually, i can mess up the numbers real good, because tere was a week where i paid 69 cents per gallon. If it's 69 cents per gallon where I am, than the cheapest state in the nation, Georgia must;ve been between 45 and 55 cents per gallon. Can you imagine? 2000-2001 with prices like that?? ANd this schmoo is arguing over 8 cents???????
You can fool most of the people some of the time, you can fool some of the people all the time, so i guess if you add those two groups together that's a lot. And that is what's going on here.
-----------
Plus in response to the GOP not getting any of kerry's stuff through. It doesn't matter. Thanks to this admin, the executive branch has the most power ever, including the Veep. That might carry on to the next term if they dont' bring Ken Starr back.
Even if i didn't follow anything whatsoever, I would start to wonder why there's so many people with that method of thinking and then think twice to what's going on.
I completely, and 200% agree with this line.
* Dukakis said he is "embarrassed" as an American that in most major
cities, "people go nuts" in rush-hour traffic, but for only a eight cents
out of every dollar spent on highways we could have an integrated rail
passenger network to rival anything in the world. "This is not an
airline-versus-highways-versus-railroad debate," Dukakis said. "This is
about America having a first-class transportation system. Moderate
but consistent spending" on rail projects would deliver such a system,
which would include modernization of Amtrak and construction of
high-speed rail corridors.*
There is no reason why most of our citizens have second class infrastructure and are put in harms way daily. A poor infrastructure leads to a poor economy and country.
So, I guess if I only know one issue or one opinion about a person, at least it's something that actually effects 90% of the population. You can say that about schools. Now if only kerry was in the GOP we could get a catchy slogan for this program.
Convention puts kink in NJ Transit rail lines
NEWARK, N.J. -- Transportation officials said yesterday (July 7) that
thousands of riders on NJ Transit's Midtown Direct rail lines will be
diverted to Hoboken during the Republican National Convention to
ease the congestion and massive delays expected at New York's
Pennsylvania Station, according to this report by Ron Marsico and Joe
Malinconico published by the Star-Ledger.
Additional PATH trains will run between Hoboken and Manhattan to
accommodate the extra commuters, said Steve Coleman, a
spokesman for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which
is working in concert with NJ Transit.
Some 11,000 commuters use Midtown Direct each weekday between 6
and 9 a.m., according to NJ Transit. Another 20,000 who ride on the
Morris & Essex Lines and the Montclair-Boonton Line the rest of the
day also would be affected, officials said.
The goal is simple: Reduce traffic into Penn Station during the
convention, which is being held Aug. 30-Sept. 2 at Madison Square
Garden. Security concerns have led authorities to close six of the
eight exits at Penn Station, as well as a number of surrounding
streets, significantly limiting access to the area.
The Garden is located directly above Penn Station's NJ Transit, Amtrak
and Long Island Railroad lines.
"This is all about reducing the pressure in New York. One of the ways
we can do that is to reroute the Midtown Direct service to Hoboken,"
said Penny Bassett Hackett, an NJ Transit spokeswoman.
Hackett said, however, that the plan has not been completed.
"It is under consideration. And we are working with PATH to
supplement their service. We expect to finalize our plans over the
next several weeks," she said.
Trains on NJ Transit's Northeast Corridor and North Jersey Coast Line
also arrive at Penn Station each day, but officials would not say
whether service on those lines would change.
After arriving in Hoboken, Midtown Direct riders will be able to take
the PATH trains into Manhattan, with stops at Christopher and Hudson
streets and along 6th Avenue at 9th, 14th, 23rd and 33rd streets. The
PATH's 33rd Street station is located one block east of Penn Station's
7th Avenue entrance.
"The plan is being considered," DOT spokesman Joe Fiordaliso said.
"In principle, it looks good, but it doesn't have the sign off on all the
levels right now."
Many rail commuters already have been making alternate plans to
avoid Penn Station during the convention.
"It's probably a pretty good idea as long as Hoboken can handle it,"
said Kathleen Hamm, a Midtown Direct rider from Millburn. "I was
thinking of switching to the Hoboken trains anyway."
Hamm said she was more concerned that plans to close most
entrances and exits to Penn Station would produce ugly overcrowding.
"I can't imagine it not being people gridlock with only two exits open,"
she said.
Jill Pozarek, a Midtown Direct rider who works at Novartis' offices in
Manhattan, said her company is giving its employees who live in New
Jersey the option of working out of the firm's office in East Hanover.
"They'll just find an open spot and work out of there," she said.
Another commuter, Tom Groppe, said he hopes to work from home
during the last week of August.
"I suspected they would be running the trains into Hoboken," Groppe
said. "It wouldn't be an easy commute even if (Penn) station was
open."
The change in the train routes shouldn't shake commuters too much,
especially considering that Midtown Direct did not start operation until
the mid-1990s, said Doug Bowen, president of the New Jersey
Association of Railroad Passengers.
Before 1996, trains on the Morris & Essex Lines only went to Hoboken.
In 1996, certain trains along those lines began going directly to
Manhattan, with the rest going to Hoboken. The Montclair-Boonton
Line got service to Penn Station in 2002, with some trains still
running to Hoboken on that line.
"I think a lot of the Morris and Essex veterans will return to their
pre-1996 patterns," which meant transferring in Hoboken, Bowen said.
"Even now, there are people who actually split the ride. They come in
during the morning on Midtown Direct and go out at night through
Hoboken.
"That's part of the reason the Morris and Essex line is so beautiful,
it's positive redundancy," Bowen said, referring to the various travel
options available to commuters on those trains.
Once they arrive in Hoboken, commuters can also board ferries to
Manhattan. Officials said there would be additional ferry service to
take the pressure off the rails.
"NY Waterway is working with NJ Transit to address commuter needs
during the Republican Convention next month and will have added
ferry capacity wherever it is needed," said Arthur Imperatore Jr.,
president of NY Waterway.
(The preceding report by Ron Marsico and Joe Malinconico was
published by the Star-Ledger on Thursday, July 8, 2004.)
Lo-VT's: 4902, 4913, 4934, 4942, 4946, 4950, 5303, 5312, 5323, 5330, 5335, 5337, 5340, 5353, 5354, 5356, and 5390.
Steinway Motors: 5628, 5631, 5633, 5636, 5638, 5641, 5647, 5649, 5650, and 5651.
Not all of the above lasted until the end (11/69). One by one the old cars retired and it was necessary to assign the Museum Lo-VM's (5290, 5292, 5443, 5466, and 5483) to the el from the spring of 1968 to the autumn of 1969.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I *had* to have ridden with you often - I was TA meat myself when I was living there, across the street from Honig's Parkway. But by the time it was lights out for the line, I was out of the TA. If you were there though in 1970/1971, then I was in full TA regalia when I rode home on the line. Wonder if we've met before.
I was there when you were, no longer in TA tin, but still rode it right up to the end as one of the FEW "regulars." I got unauthorized HANDLE time on the LoV's back in the late 60's before those miserable piles of R contract thingies replaced my "preecious." Heh.
SO ... did ya do the museum cars and "step up like a MAN" or did you get to do it with them wimpy R car hosers? Inquiring wiseasses need to no. (grin)
If the nostalgia bug ever hits, there's still handle time on 1689 at Branford. After 30 years away from motors, it was quite the thrill lapping it again.
Bob: I was on that trip. I took my first train ride ever on the 3 Avenue El and felt that I had to be there for the last one. Thank you for the kind words.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Chris: I didn't post the WF car numbers because with only two exceptions all of them were assigned to the 3 Avenue EL.
The two exceptions were 5660 renumbered V-286 and 5689 renumbered V-287 which served as motors for the Vacuum Cleaner Train.
Larry, RedbirdR33
wayne
The location of this photo given was Kings Highway...
When in fact, it is 18th Avenue. The buildings to the right, and the steelwork underneath the switch that was taken out gave it away.
Just thought I'd point it out.
Thank you
Mark De Loatch
-Chris(transitpics.com-COMING SOON!)
For the same reason straight train nuts post on SubTalk.
Mark is a bus nut, too.
Duh!
umm, this is SUBtalk.
Peace,
ANDEE
His handle is Mdlbigcat.
Peace,
ANDEE
Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Fat A-- Off?
:-)
wayne
Peace,
ANDEE
In response to my article I posted that you got this from. Don't you think it would be prudent to train those dudes who PRETEND to be power or gas people when they try to rob you? Maybe they might find something!
BTW, I forgot about the pest people. They come in my apt. periodically, not to mention the state-mandated inspection every year or so.
Usually when they do this, I cut my PC off, so they won't get curious. Don't want them to see my goodies.
Now to take my WMD [my cheap-assed camera, it's SOOO 20th Century, still have to take the film to CVS to be developed, not the snazzy 21st Century digitals], and take some train pictures. Ciao!
Step back from the computer, take a breather.
I think I hear the big black helicopters now...
Turns out that this train is running Blue line on a route that is normally Orange. Signed as Blue on the end doors and all the flip-dots, and also announced as "Blue Line to Franconia-Springfield". At Landover, I talked to the station manager about it, and she called Central Control to find out. Turns out that this train was a put-in from New Carrollton, to run normal Blue Line service. This was also the only train like this, it turns out. Weird. But understandable.
Meanwhile, there was a nasty little storm that came in a few minutes after I arrived at New Carrollton, where I was using the Amtrak station to break for a few minutes before heading back downtown. This storm was fierce, with wind, heavy rain, and lots of loud thunder and bright lightning. I always say that when the lightning looks like a flashbulb going off right over your head, it's serious. Even knocked out the power to the Amtrak station, causing their generators to come on. I don't know what happened at the New Carrollton Metro station, as I stayed in the Amtrak station where it was safe and dry compared to the more open Metro station until the storm passed.
And I also saw a Breda-Breda-Rohr-Rohr-CAF-CAF consist on the Rosslyn lower level, running as a Blue Line train. I got a photo of this train leaving the station from the upper level, and you can see its mixed-ness by looking at the roofs.
You can tell the difference by looking at the roofs - Bredas have the corrugated roof with areas that look like patches at the ends of the cars, Rohrs have the plain roof, and CAFs have the corrugated roof without the patches. Plus, of course, I marked it. And you can see the light reflecting from the CAF head-sign LED at the bottom of the picture.
And otherwise, Metro didn't do that hot of a job cleaning up from their special service pattern this year, as Federal Triangle and Federal Center SW both still had July 4 banners hung up at the entrances advertising the Orange Line to both New Carrollton AND Addison Road. There was also a July 4 map on a windscreen at Deanwood.
Also, something that the aforementioned Landover station manager told me was about confused customers waiting at Federal Triangle waiting more than 40 minutes for their Blue Line train that was never going to come. Makes me wonder about whether to avoid confusion downtown, to change the July 4 service pattern to run both Blue and Orange Line trains downtown, sending them to their normal eastbound terminals, and then send the Blue and Orange Lines both to Vienna. Accomplishes the same end in sending more trains to Vienna, but eliminates some confusion downtown, I'd think. Then change the existing Blue on the map to a "SPECIAL" running from Huntington to Rosslyn upper level.
Anyway, your thoughts?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Mark
Robert
Robert
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert
til next time
til next time
til next time
(ducks)
As fond as I am of the R-1/9s, I have no doubt the Triplexes would have become a favorite as well, had I ever ridden on them.
til next time
til next time
what's the reason behind the oddly-shaped roof?
THAT's what a subway car is supposed to look like - AFAIAC today's roofs are oddly shaped ;-)
The roof also contained vents which helped improve air circulation and provided a space for the ceiling fans...
#3 West End Jeff
wayne
wayne
wayne
I think you meant a Steeplecab :)
I did see the D-types reposing in the sunshine at CI Yard on Wednesday. Maybe they're next to be overhauled for the subway centennial celebration.
--Mark
So sorry if I got any one hiped up about this.
Robert
til next time
Robert
http://www.news-medical.net/print_article.asp?print=yes&id=3185
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/09/arts/09REVE.html
Lock a mime and a clown in a room and lock the door.
See who comes out when you unlock the door.
Your pal,
Shakes
Besides, mimes have a French connotation thanks to Marcel Marceau and putting them anywhere in NYC would decrease civility.
The article may have been about an experience in Columbia, but my take on it was related to transit.
People holding doors, people leaning over platforms or acting disrespectfully to others on mass transit is a major problem. Conductors yelling at door holders or signs warning about leaning over aren't always successful. Perhaps a few strategically placed mimes, without saying a word, could humorously remind people to be more considerate of themselves and others.
I've found an inexpensive hotel (the Belnord) near The Museum of Natural History and therefore near to the 86th St. Station on the B and D (?). Assuming we fly into JFK (could be Newark - we don't know yet), which is the best way there? Take the E from Jamaica or the A from Howard Beach (obviously changing to the C at the most convenient downtown location)?
BTW would be nice to meet a couple of you guys whilst there, although the chap I'm coming with is not a railfan, so no possibility of really long excursions.
Mark.
(Thanks in advance for your advice)
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark.
;-)
The important thing is to ENJOY!
Peace,
ANDEE
But it will be worth it to see Airtrain and Jamaica Station, which I have not visited before - plus I get to ride the E at its far end (another first for me).
So YES I WILL enjoy it - nothing can spoil a trip to NY for me, because it is one of my favourite places on earth.
BTW this time I will also visit the deep-level stations on the 1/9 and the A - I didn't even know about these unusual places until I visited this site.
Thanks again for your input.
Mark.
:-)
Will definitely visit the new station at Coney Island too - you'd be a fool to miss it!
;-)
The A train method is a bit complex. There's an A train going to Lefferts Blvd. which doesn't connect to the Airtrain (though looking at the maps, it appears that if they build an extended passageway to connect to the Airtrain station, there won't be a problem, but I have never rode on the Airtrain and haven't seen it working, so I can't say) and there's an A train to Far Rockaway which does goes to the JFK airtrain. E sounds better after all this, right? :)
Thanks for replying.
Mark.
:-)
please advise - thank you :)
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Your pal,
Fred
Peace,
ANDEE
That's because I try to only post while sober. My PC has a breatholyzer on it which prevents those messy 'accidents'.
Your pal,
Fred
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Peace,
ANDEE
Tenmile River
HOWEVER, for historians, that area is FL-9 territory.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
It is located in Dutchess County. I remember there is a mental hospital up there(no joke). Otherwise there is not much reason to go there.
Sounds like they listened to David Gunn's remarks.
story in Daily News
David
Hell, after spending 20 billion to rip everything out the MTA wouldn't need a photo ban.
the only older train i really like is the Slant, and possibly the 62.
R-32.
When I was a motorman, remembering that I at the age of 8 got to RUN an R10 thanks to the father of a friend who worked the A train, I had deep respect for kids who'd come up front while I was doing my thing and would make it a point to let them look into the cab while I did my job. HOWEVER - there were unspoken rules at play when *I* was a kid, as well as when I operated. DO NOT be "noticed" ... running a train IS a task. Leave me alone, and I'll let you watch. Get in MY FACE, SLAM! My job was to get the geese there alive. Anything that distracts me from doing that, mmmmmbye. ANYTHING. But STILL, I knew there were kids there, I was one myself and I was respectful that there was a job to be done. Befriended me MANY a motorman before the MTA came who'd not only let me WATCH, but actually "here's how to do it - now HOLD it down and DON'T let that rise up, but sure - go ahead and pull it" ... and NO, no "ghey episodes" here - they were craftspeople who ENJOYED interest, and it was the 50's, CHILDREN were sacred unless proven otherwise. :)
If there was a bag blocking the view, there's two possibilities here - either you were dealing with somebody who got burned by a railfan and wants no part of "tattling" or you had somebody that you annoyed. The old cabs could be CLOSED - byebye, have a nice day, I can't SEE you ... transverses have a tendency of "over the shoulder monitoring by strangers" ... some operators just don't want to be distracted by it. Therefore, they'll "block it off" in case "kids" don't get the hint to be cool. Someone else might have honked them off "up the road" before YOU got on ...
But if there's a newspaper on the window, or an obstruction, just deal with it being "I don't want no trouble" ... WORK for the TA sometime, UNDERSTAND WHY. :(
As I've admitted before though, I found out in short order that I really wasn't suited for the gig. I was OK as a conductor, but found it difficult to keep with it when I moved to motors. And I did find the kids kicking on the door annoying to say the least. Even had a few trying to work the clamp off as well. And while I agree with you, I also understand why some say, "enough of this shirt" and shut down the sideshow. :(
You're right though if it's a rule. There were many days pounding the road when I cursed the rule of "slam it or clamp it, if we catch it open, you're out of service."
The residents didn't want it anyway...
Regardless of that,there should have been some way for the TA to bring this line about.
A subway along Steinway st,an extention from Roosevelt Ave station..something....
I'm just a kid, 55 years of age ... I've been alive when Joe McCarthy peddled his fine neo-conservative sausage to a nation of clueless TV viewers until FINALLY Joseph Welch, an attorney from the Boston firm of Hale and Dorr made his famous quote that caused the tide to FINALLY turn against this witch-hunt and the turning of Americans on one another for no valid reason, "I meant to do you no personal injury and if I did, I beg your pardon. Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" I think it applies to some of the character assasination many have done to others, and the shouting down of dissenting opinions expressed here and everywhere else by people who question the validity of America being misguided for political opportunity among those in leadership UNWORTHY of their elected office.
We no longer "discuss," we shout DOWN, we harrass, we harangue one another, just like 1953. We even JOIN the "mob mentality" and THREATEN others. Are SOME Americans less worthy than the rest? Does anyone remember Lincoln's speeches? Or those of other WORTHY statesmen and LEADERS? *NO* ... a TRUE leader would provide INFORMATION and engage in DISCUSSION and CONSENSUS, and by pure power of GUIDANCE lead us into a discussion of what we all can agree on and come together in a common cause as a united nation. As AMERICANS. ALL of us. :(
Instead, we have neocons who control everything from our news, to our entertainment to everything we see, hear and feel. They throw up their "Liberal media" boogeymen when we question the truth of what we're being peddled. Fact is, "liberals" were the creation of the REPUBLICAN party in post-war times - the Percy's, the Rockefellers, and many others who allowed "study groups" and "think-tanks" to decide what was best for us. How IRONIC that the republicans who were once "liberals" shake this boogeyman in our face, claiming that the DEMOCRATS invented "liberalism" ... :-\
And we're FALLING for this episode of doublespeak, hook, line and SINKER.
What is "terrorism?" Webster’s Dictionary defines terrorism as "the use of force or threats to demoralize, intimidate, and subjugate, especially such use as political weapon or policy." So who precisely ARE the "terrorists?" *BUSH!* NOT Al Qaeda, NOT railfans, NOT even LIBERALS! The "terrorists" are our VERY own government, the right wing who plays up this nonsense and turns us upon one another, and the IDIOTS who are stupid enough to LISTEN to the nonsense which they are being spoonfed as surely as old Senator Joe dispensed it during the "Red Scare."
WHY did September 11th happen? Because our intelligence and national security agencies were underfunded and uncoordinated. And this was caused by WHO? Why the VERY neocon CONGRESS who defunded them in the first place, and incompetence among MANY administrations over a period of time. PLAIN AND SIMPLE, GOVERNMENT screwed the pooch. Who gets to PAY for this? Not THEM, they get RE-ELECTED! :(
So when "terrorism" hits home, do they get OSAMA? Nope. Do they bring down the House of Saud? Nope. Do they make Newt Gingrich or Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld (who CREATED OSAMA) do the perp walk? NOPE. They clamp down on *YOU* ... take your sneakers off and relax your anal muscles, we need to check up there ... Yep, they came after *YOU* when we will all see with the release of the 9/11 Commission report that GOVERNMENT screwed up, but we're taking America hostage instead.
So for those of you who pour hatred upon fellow subtalkers, or cower in fear of terrorism, bear in mind who the *REAL* terrorists are - it's NOT Al Qaeda, it's the arseholes who issue alerts to CNN but NOT the police, it's the arseholes who stand in front of the cameras insisting that if we just round up those pesky railfans and kill Amtrak, we'll ALL be safe.
The people who DO the terrorism are up for election in November. Stop beating up on one another and hold the REAL terrorists accountable for a change, not each other. READ the 9/11 Commission report when it's released - SEE Fahrenheit 9/11 and ignore Michael Moore's commentary - soak in the DOCUMENTS instead ... and for krimminy's sake, stop whining about who works and who lives off the dole - it's your OWN leaders who are the REAL terrorists, and they EXPECT you to chit your pants instead of notice what's REALLY going on here - it was bad enough that America suffered a coup d'etat in 2000 ... and even worse when the very same party that STAGED and WON the coup d'etat sat on their asses while the planes hit the WTC ...
I have to agree with many here (and NOBODY who has actually READ my comments over the years can pin the "L word" on ME - I'm a GOLDWATER republican, cast out by Pat Robertson for not being CRAZY enough) ... we *ARE* in a "police state" ... we *ARE* being USED by an administration that has NOTHING to sell us but FEAR ... and we're SO overwhelmed by the programming of a corrupted media that we actually BELIEVE this nonsense ... every bit as much as German citizens BELIEVEED what Goehring was peddling in the 1930's. God HELP America if we don't wake up.
Just say NO to terrorism, throw the terrorists OUT of office in November and TAKE AMERICA BACK before it's too late. Or do we want to learn something ELSE from Germany in the 1930's and their coup d'etat by Hitler? Do we want to see America go the way of Dresden at the hands of the REST of the world? How in heaven's NAME did we ever survive the cold war? THINK! :(
It's not too late to stop the madness and self-emolation. But time is running out. The ONLY ones that seem to "hate America" are our very own leaders - without their nonsense, we would ALL be Americans again, and could do FAR better than we are now, cowering and dumping in our own pants. :(
Our somewhat sinister current administration did not plan, help, or carry out the September 11th attacks and we would not put up with it if they had.
To say that Bush, etc. are "the real terrorists" is to deflect attention from much more dangerous, much more violent, much less approval-rated individuals out there.
Osama Bin Laden's not getting voted out of power this year or in 2008. Valid angry criticism is one thing, and I'm whole-heartedly with you. Rhetoric that blurs very important moral distinctions is another.
And when you say "neo-cons", that better not be a code-word for some other group.
-West End Scott
PS: This is off topic. I apologize.
*THAT* is what these creeps are going for. And while I won't SIDE with the "conspiracy theories" there are many MILITARY PEOPLE who quit, including advisors to the Shrub and Joint Chiefs of Staff who resigned over 9/11 ... and many of them have whispered "INSIDE JOB!" but I won't go there. Suffice it to say that in all I stated, THIS regime has got to go. When the 9/11 Commission report comes out, it will be DAMNING as to the underfunding, undersupervision and most of all, the LACK of an "internet" for them all to share files and screens. It's *ALL* about UNDERFUNDING and its morbid result. All for TAX CUTS that hurt where it mattered ... but the "Commission" doesn't SAY "tax cuts," that's a "read between the lines" as a BASIS for the "underfunding" ... you'll see.
AGGGH. And while our porkers lavish MORE upon themselves for the CHITTY job *they* did, they take away *OUR* rights and *NOT* fix the problem THEY caused. :(
That's actually not true - as indicated in another subthread of this one, and prominently mentioned in the upcoming 9/11 Commission report. And Clinton stopped the terrorist attack that was underway in YOUR neck of the woods before it (never) happened. Given Orange county's political attitude, he should have let it come down like "your boy" did in New York. :(
Sadly, the world is cluttered with SPIN, truth be damned no matter WHERE the truth leads us. And when truth fails in the mission, then shout down ANY dissent or counterbalance and to hell with looking any further - on topic, this is how the MTA gets away with THEIR political "spin" ... and to be fair, if AMERICA *ever* got off their over-Atkins'd fat rumps, they'd realize that the REASON WHY New York is *such* a blue state (*OUR* electors ALONE would re-elect Shrub) is because we took a punch in the face for "America" and "America" and the asswipes THEY elected (not US) gave us the "slipped soap" number after WE took 3,000 casualties *FOR NOTHING* ... *NOTHING*. :(
But 1993 never happened, it's just what we're on alert for NOW. After "nukular weapons on America, Bilogicals and ANTHRAX" who could GIVE a qwap in AMERICA if that happened to New York again? Nobody cares, re-elect the smug phuck. :(
(don't mind me, but as if I wasn't already over the top already, Shrub's nonsense Monday morning REALLY put me over the top)
LOL! Truer words were never said!
See? On topic after all.
Railroading and politics are unfortunity highly intertwined. The CEO of CSX is our Treasury Secretary as but one example. But trains are in grave danger, and there's my motivation. You won't see me on bustalk.
Mr Bruno..and some other knuckle head fought like cats and dogs over where the train should run...because of that stupid line of thinking....they get nothing ,now...
well if you concider a BRT bus something... thats what Albany's getting now...
Idiots....
And to think - the Soviet Union is no more - except in AMERICA. :(
What doesn't make sense,is why they have so many little cities running around the Capitol District[with their own little polices force]rather than one municipality[like the five boro's...]
Green Island barely makes up one Brooklyn nab...
it's funny...no really,it is...
It was a question of "the train runs in MY district, not yours." At least if it had been done in the FIRST district, it would have served PEOPLE. In the latter, it would have been pure pork. What's SAD is that those along the congested Oliver Northway would actually EMBRACE a train - and while ridership wouldn't have risen to NJT/LIRR levels, it would have been worth it. Not so for the alternative.
But now we've got NOTHING, but the taxpayers paid for the (non-existent) railroad ANYWAY - the money went to tax abatements for Wal*Fart ... and of course, Unca Joey's limp p*nis on the Hudson that's already collapsing from structural failures of the parking lots and foundation. Not to mention that zany low bid clock. Yep, Joey's monument was worth it for sure. :(
We COULD have had a train. Instead, we have monuments. And of course, no budget.
Would that we had engineers instead of lawyers in our government.
Here’s an idea for you: term limits <10 years and no-one who has been a member of a bar (any state) in the past 10 years is eligible to stand for public office.
Unfortunately I don’t have too many hopes because anyone who is remotely competent has some skeletons in the closet and probably doesn’t want them aired on CNN or Fox.
Bush inherited the problem, he didn't create it.
And if I want to hear your left-wing drivel, I'll go see Fahrenheit 9/11.
WHO created Al Qaeda? Who DIDN'T "neutralize" them when they were no longer of use? But as to the allegations, voila:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9607/30/clinton.terrorism/
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/clinton.htm
But hey ... no problem, call me a leftie - I'd rather be called a member of the "left wing" than the "wrong wing" ... and as Dick Cheney said to Senator Leahy ... well ... you know. :)
Oh yeah ... I should shout you down, but as far as I'm concerned, you're STILL an American ... misguided by the spindoctors perhaps, but I don't want to see you hauled off to the gulag. no, really. :)
You've done well ,Shrub....
keep up the good work....
You sure we're not related?
Propaganda's running wild,the geese soakin it up like candy...
brainwashing the masses....
Well done,Shrub....well done....
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
But I wasn't talking "bias," I was talking INCOMPETENCE. :(
World Service is better than the BBC News for Britons for an international perspective. Not surprisingly, the BBC Radio 4 News has more Britain/Europe bias in news selection.
I would also recommend the World Service version of From Our Own Correspondent. The BBC correspondents around the world record some background pieces which complement the news.
Oh, and just to show it has everything, BBC has the World’s Longest Running Soap Opera as well!
Guiding Light premiered in 1937 and that's on CBS, so HA!
Anyway, BBC does have the longest running non-daytime TV series.
As for Guiding Light, it’s a hybrid. Radio from 1957, TV from 1952. The Archers was BBC National Radio from 1951. Still with the same signature tune–that, like it or loathe it, has been drummed into 50 million British brains since.
I leave it to the current Brits to comment on The Archers. I stopped listening when Doris died.
The Daleks: conquer the universe, provided it doesn’t have stairs!
Also, the BBC, to save costs, would routinely reuse videotape. No-one knows how many episodes of classic series were just wiped away.
However, I’m sure you would like to read it. The style is breathless, in-your-face sarcasm which should appeal to your sardonic wit!
Yes, we could have been more prepared, but the fact is, they still attacked us.
The 9/11 Commission will probably be the final word, but here's some from Bill O'Reilly on FOX to tide us over until then ...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,123409,00.html
For me, it's not about partisanship - I'm currently "unenrolled," one of those "undecideds" out there. When it comes to BUSH though, I've made up my mind. About all I can offer is that I'm VERY unhappy about the alternatives but at this point, I'd put a Studebaker in the White House - anything but this moron. :(
But to clarify my original argument, primarially blaming the US (assuming the didn't ignore intellegence, etc.) for the attacks is like saying that a rape victim is responsible for her being attacked. Yeah, some things she wears or places she goes could increase her chances of being attacked, but in the end, is it her fault?
Last I checked though, that was not the case. :)
Bottom line though, check my other posts - I GENUINELY don't want to pollute any further database space - what I've said is there, contains links, and CAN be checked out. The TESTIMONY before ALL Commissions is public record ... just needs some digging. The "owned media" won't and everybody's settled into "I vote for THIS guy and to HELL with the facts" (one way or another). Bottom line is more people are reviled by Shrub than like him, so Kerry wins. My disappointment is merely that Bush is STILL a viable candidate at all. Then again, people are sheep. They're not INTERESTED in truth. That's how we GOT here in the first place. :(
http://www.AttackOnAmerica.net/ignorad.htm
It IS curious though that those who COULD have stopped it all walked out of the room and became unavailable AFTER the first plane hit. :(
But *my* point on "Say no to terrorism" was a hope that we'd stop being so damned abusive to one another and in particular that we'd come to realize that officials constantly waving the flag of terrorism in our faces without providing information to local law enforcement was a political crime of the highest treason. For OUR officials to be doing the WORK of the terrorists by terrorizing US for no good reason, without any valid information or facts is TREASON.
But I'll leave it there ...
The New York Post capsule review of "Fahrenheit 9/11" advises viewers to go beyond seeing the film, to obtain and read the documents that it shows.
How would you compare getting to the bottom (truth) of 9/11, to, say, that of Contra Gate of the Reagan administration, or the Kennedy assassinations ?
"THIS ain't the place to go into it", because this "ain't" "World Politics Talk", yet, this thread keeps growing, and has not yet been deleted by our webmaster. Ditto, "Sex in the CT".
'And as to 9/11, a LOT of military people believe that it was an "inside job."' : Hmmm ... I may e-mail you privately on this.
I choose Roosevelt Blvd in Philly.
Why?
Because on the occasions I take the 14 bus up the Blvd, I always see at least 5 remains of cars that get wrecked on that road. Also I always see the news reports of some poor soul that gets hit by a speeding car on that road, yeah on the TV stations down here, if it bleeds, it leads.
Roosevelt Blvd is semi-suburban, so it lends to more higher speeds, and more chances of people [especially pedestrians] getting killed because the road is 300 feet wide in some parts. On the upper part, it is about 150 feet wide without the grassy medians. And last but not least, the NE has a huige elderly population, a lot of targets for agressive drivers.
Oh no, I think a lot more people have died on Queens Blvd than on grand Concourse. At every crosswalk there are always so many poles that have flowers all over them. More than Grand Concourse. But I'm almost positive Queens Blvd has killed more.
-Broadway Buffer
The Boulevard in philly is one of the best roads in my opinions. It has one major problem. It's in Philly/PA. They can't operate a road at all. If another state had the power it would work. The lights and signs and such are messed up. I can't fathom any other city on this earth who would treat the left turns like they do so all the cars line up in front of each other. It should ALL be controlled like the roads i drive on.
ANd the new ITS lights wouldn't hurt. Philly is such a joke on it's handling of that road.
Didn't Michael Moore make a point about violence being big on the news in the USA and contributing to an air of fear and a sense that violence is reality in Bowling for Columbine ? Now they're sayin' it's okay to massacre folks by speeding down boulevards, simply because it's what happens all the time and nobody in power cares about it. Hmmm.
...43,000 dead each year. Can you imagine the response if terrorists were killing that many of us in a year? The difference is that this killer is profitable.
Mark
http://www.rncnotwelcome.org/merch.html
Culverexpress
What would have changed along the line between 1955 and today? What cars would be used in 2004? The R-62's? Maybe another rehabbed version of the Redbirds?
The stations on the line would have been rehabbed and maybe the structure strengthened to support the heavier cars used after the el cars were scrapped. I imagine that the same changes made to the Chicago els would have appeared in New York.
Any ideas?
The R-39s were intended for the Myrtle and for the Third Avenue (Bronx) Line. These would still be in service today.
Elias
What were the ridership statistics for the two lines at the end? I remember that the Third Avenue el had some rush hour traffic on the lower end (Tremont Avenue to 149th Street), but otherwise was quite lightly used.
The R39 never got beyond the concept stage. Their looks are purely speculative. They would have had to be different from current rolling stock because they had to be lighter in weight. Aluminum?
They probably would have made them lighter weight by using lighter trucks. About half of the weight of an R-36 car is in the trucks; using ligher-weight trucks would make the cars considerably lighter.
-- Ed Sachs
David
Regards,
Jimmy
The best of the MUDC's would have been continued in use until about 1959. Needing a lightweight fleet, the NYCT might have bought cars similar to the Cleveland Rapid fleet. Based on off-the-shelf PCC technology, but still with a somewhat "traditional" appearence. Since the fleet would be restriced to 3Av and maybe Myrtle, it wouldn't have to conform to the "New York Subway" type.
-- Ed Sachs
Michael
Second, what if ALL FOUR Manhattan els (Second, Third, Sixth, Ninth Avenues) were still running, what would NYC subways be like now ? Any ideas ?
The same can be said about the B49/B68 and the Brighton Line, you can take the Q train in one direction between Prospect Park to Brighton Beach and take a bus back in the opposite direction, a walk that is 10 minutes at most. The B68 is easily accessed from Church Ave to Brighton Beach and the B49 from Prospect Park to Sheepshead Bay.
No one on the train was injured, he said.
The westbound Metrolink Train No. 303, headed from San Bernardino to downtown Los Angeles, was delayed for about three hours during the investigation, Metrolink spokesman Francisco Oaxaca said.
The train moved into the Covina station at about 8:20 a.m., where the passengers were taken by bus to complete their journey.
He didn't have a passenger count, but Oaxaca said the train generally has 400 to 500 riders prior to entering the Covina station.
Another Covina teen committed suicide last year on the tracks. Joshua Bateman, 15, stood in the path of a westbound Metrolink train Feb. 5, 2003, near Banna and Cypress avenues, near his school.
The Charter Oak High School sophomore was reportedly distraught about his mother's recent suicide.
Metrolink has about three to five fatalities per year, Oaxaca said, many involving people trying to drive around warning gates at grade crossings.
"This occurs periodically, these almost unavoidable tragedies,' he said.
The tracks in Covina reopened at 9:25 a.m., but No. 303 and other trains were further delayed because of a suspicious package found at the Baldwin Park Metrolink station.
Baldwin Park police received a call at about 8 a.m. from security about a black bag left on a bench in the northeast portion of the station, Lt. Lili Hadsell said.
Officers responded along with the Los Angeles County bomb squad, who moved the bag across the street and X-rayed it. The bag had a plastic food container inside, Hadsell said.
The station was shut down while the bomb squad removed the bag, she said.
The bag was found by security officer Carmen Martinez. Another suspicious package was found at the station about three weeks ago, Martinez said, but it turned out to be Chinese food.
Normal train operations resumed at about 11 a.m., Oaxaca said
Thanks,
-Tom
They still do the job and are cool and comfortable even with the noise.
Get this last chance to see them.
me sitting next to joe testagrose.
an R40 W train at city hall LL.
a view of the dark tunnel ahead of city hall.
R33ML#9017 at rockaway pk.
he also emailed me some bus pictures from up in canada,i'll post those up on bus talk in a bit.
til next time
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
Thanks for opinions.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
R142As have flusher surfaces than the R142s.
Kawasaki is better than Bombardier.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
: )
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
BTW: Has Kawasaki ever made any cars for the TTC?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
til next time
But if you put a gun to my head, I will say Kawsaki R142A. Nothing beats Japanese engineering/build quality.
By the way, didn't you start a thread on this same topic awhile back?
til next time
By the way, didn't you start a thread on this same topic awhile back?
Yes. But this time, I'm taking off a car (R143) to see this time who likes what better between just two of the new trains. When the R160s come in next year, I'll do R142 vs. R142A vs. R143 vs. R160, then R143 vs. R160.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
For me, R-142 > R-142A. The loud roar of the HVAC on the R-142 is unsurpassed.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
R-32.
Peace,
ANDEE
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
Oh, wait
I was a fan of Thomas the Tank Engine when I was a baby. :-)
What about you?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Assuming you're referring to the latter, I loved Thomas the Tank Engine. You had those mean, 'ole Diesels. :) My parents always got me train sets, not Lionel, but those cheap 20 to 40 buck ones. They weren't bad, though (Does anyone know who makes these?). Of course, being the wild and dumb toddler I was, I wasted no time busting them up... Stupid me.
I certainly remember riding the J and consequently the 7. I was also able to recognize the difference between 'E' (B division) and '7' (A division) equipment and always wondered why the 7 trains were smaller...
2. Watching the Lionel Trains TV specials that ran around Xmas time.
3. Riding the 3rd Ave. El and the White Plains Rd lines into the City with my grandfather. He always fell asleep and I got the railfan window! We always waited for a R-12 (maybe a Low-V but I'm not sure) because the windows on the R-17 were too high for me to see out of.
To be honest, I never knew/paid attention to the A/B div. train size. My first ride on a B division train was last year when I took the A to the Transit Museum(except the SIRT)!
One of my memories that I always had is when I would go with my father to work at the 59th floor of the WTC(btw, he's OK, he now works in Westchester). I remember taking the train from Annadale, the ferry and then the train again at 'the station where the metal things came out'(SF)!
-Chris-{Coming soon!transitpics.com!}
Then on Christmas Eve my Dad would set up our Lionel trains and I'd play with them for a week.
I played on and near the tracks from age 5 on.
Also had this old wooden train set that I would build cities around with wooden building blocks, then knock over the buildings with the train.
Mark
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Matt
Regards,
Jimmy
I think my first subway memory was either 1)standing up on the seat looking out the side window of the Flushing Line at Sunnyside Yards or 2)A Nostalgia train trip, where all I can remember that the train (probably a BMT Q-Type) broke down in a yard (CI Yard I think). We had to transfer to a (guessing here) R32 or 38 through the front door of the Nostalgia train, with a piece of carpet thrown between the two trains. This was probably very early 1980's sometime.
Yup, the green locomotive and orange coach with stickers of the McDonald characters. Late 80's had another train toy. Sadly, I only had the Grimace Express being we never went to McDonalds often. And I always tried to win the electric train when the Monopoly game is in session, but never win.
Regards,
Jimmy
When I was a kid, my mother would drag me to a train display in one of the department stores in downtown South Bend, only I wasn't all that impressed. Now she says she's created a monster.:)
All of which led up to July 21, 1965 - a red-letter date in my life for sure. This wide-eyed eight-year-old on his first visit to NYC rode on the subway for the first time that day, and rest is history.
Your pal,
Fred
1. Being 3 years old in 1962 and pestering my grandmother to read electric train catalogs to me. I got my first Lionel set when I was seven.
2. Being 5 years old and riding the old wooden Q cars on the Myrtle Avenue El with my father from Metropolitan Avenue in Queens to Navy Street in Brooklyn. We attended a big ceremony aboard a destroyer at the Brooklyn Navy Yard. My father stood with other men his age on the deck, and cried.
He told me when I was older that that was the day they decommissioned the ship on which he had served in 1945 at Okinawa and Iwo Jima.
3. Being four years old and riding the LIRR Montauk Branch for a weekend at my godmother's summer home in Mastic Beach. The locomotives were awesome.
My dad had to travel from NYC to Chicago to take his medical boards. Because it was January and he was worried about getting there if the weather turned iffy, he booked a seat on the Commodore Vanderbilt. We all went to Grand central: my mom and dad, me (4 years old) and my brother (1 year old).
After dad boarded I dragged my mother and brother up to the front of the train to see the engine. For some reason (and to my delight) it did not have an electric "motor" on the point but two diesels, probably and E-7 and E-9.
I stood on the platform looking up at the engine when the fireman leaned out the window and waved to me; I naturally waved back. The engineer came over to the window and also waved so I waved to him as well. I heard him say something to my mother and the next thing I knew, the fireman lifted me into the cab and placed me in the engineer's seat. The engineer put the horn cord in my hand and told me to pull; I did and had the thrill of my life.
I don't even remember them placing me back on the platform or the ride back to Sty Town via two subways, but I'll never forget that experience.
About 3-4 years ago I took my son who was about 4 on the Brooklyn LIRR line so we could take the subway to the C.I. aquarium and naturally was at the railfan window. There was a female engineer and she asked Arthur if he wanted to hit the whistle. She let him press the whistle just as the train was coming out of the tunnel onto the el at Ralph Avenue. All I could think of was saying "what about me" but in my late 40's I was too embarassed.
By the way, this is why I always let as many kids as possible ring the bell when I'm operating at BERA.
Riding the Broadway Limited from New York to Chicago, and having dinner in the diner.
Electroburgers on the Electroliner en route from Milwaukee back to Chicago to catch the Broadway for the trip home.
Trains crossing the Poughkeepsie railroad bridge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Your pal,
Fred
- M-2s running along the New Haven Line ROW next to I-95 and asking my father to catch up with them.
- Riding the PA-1/2/3s when they still had the black paint around the windows.
- WTC Path station. :-(
- R-46s on the E flying down Queens Blvd :-)
- R-32 local trains that scared me when the lights went out over third rail gaps
- Arrow IIs and Arrow IIIs on the Morris and Essex lines ROW near I-280 in Harrison.
- hearing the older, uglier, and much noiser LIRR diesel sets passing by
Ah, yes, back when NYC was in the slums in the 1970s and 1980s. Glad that period of time's over. LOL.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
This was one of the books my parents read to me at bedtime. I could barely talk, but repeated "Staying on the rails no matter what!" over and over again. It was one of the books which I read to my children when they were young. And, when my children were about to have kids of their own, we bought them each a copy (yes, It's STILL available in print from amazon.com) to read to the grandchildren.
REAL LIFE:
I can't remember exactly when this happened, but it was surely no later than 1946 when I was 6 years old, possibly a year or two before that. My parents owned no car at the time, and we went to visit the sister of one of the family friends, who lived in E. Rutherford, NJ. We took a "big boat" and then a train... which was headed by a STEAM LOCOMOTIVE. This was regular passenger service, not an excursion train of some kind. I really have no idea as to which railroad it was (not the PRR, of course - maybe CNJ?), or exactly where the station was that we used. But I couldn't wait for the trip home, and thrilled beyond words when, on the way home, we stood at the station while the monster black marvel pulled in.
Was this the last steam passenger service in the NY/NJ area, and can anyone remember such a trip any time later than this? I can state with assurance that by the summer of '47, the NYO&W was running diesels to the Catskill Mountain region.
Shalom from Tel Aviv. Andy.
No, both the CNJ and PRR operated steam in passenger service much later than that, and quite possibly other railroads as well. The CNJ dieselized their remaining passenger service in 1954, with the PRR following in 1957; the last steam passenger train on the New York and Long Branch (today's North Jersey Coast Line of NJT) ran in late October, 1957, three weeks before the final passenger train under steam on the PRR down in southern New Jersey.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The last regularly scheduled PRR passenger train pulled by steam was the Pemberton-to-Camden local on November 12, 1957. It ran into Camden in the morning. The return trip in the afternoon was on a Doodlebug.
Shalom from Tel Aviv. Andy.
Fred, I'll give you chops that the Sea Beach is fast. It's too bad it's in an open cut for the most of the time; that speed could afford some impressive views.
Hell, even when we moved out to Long Island (with woods all around, a large set of commercial chicken coops across the "street", and the hundreds of acres of Central Islip State Hospital a block away, filled with lovely wandering, uh, "nuts", and numerous old buildings, fields of apple trees, straw and blackberries, weird "streams" and cool swamps...simply kid heaven.), even then, my mom would take some of the crowd (five sisters, three brothers) into the city numerous times. Worlds Fair, museaums, hell, even Idlewild Airport, to see all the action.
I got hooked on rails watching the Trolley on Mister Rogers' Neighborhood. I'm sure I'm not alone.
There was an episode where Fred talked about the trolley itself and I believe visited a local museum.
Chuck Greene
I am a fan of Thomas The Tank Engine...[TOYS,MOVIES..I got em]
more so for my daughter...but you know how it is...
Anyway,I go back bit to the Eastern division of the 60's...[QJ/JJ/RJ/MJ/KK/M]....
First came to NY in 67',and the first train I ever rode was the A....My dad was working for the TA for some time before we got here[long story..don't want to boar you]so I would from time to time ride with him while he was working...
He worked the Sea Beach mostly at first,then the Eastern lines,and at the end some lines out of Coney Island....
He was the one who first told me about the R 44 cars[when they were new] powering up on its own,moving on its own,and catching fire for no reason at all.
I used to wait for him at the end of his tour sometimes while he parked his KK "putin" on the center track on the Broadway EL...where we would sometimes go get a shake from the deli near the Lowes Gates movie house...and walk home...
those were fun days to be sure....
When I was approximately five, I vaugely remember the R110b. I recal its mosaics, and the great view from car to car. I also remember the external speakers.
\\Julian
--Mark
Word to the wise: keep away from subway bathrooms...save for Times Square of course, assuming the guard will let you in.
Peace,
ANDEE
Scuzzy? Where do you see Scuzzy in those photos.
Those are nice clean well maintained...
You wanna see scuzzy, you shoulda seen them in the 70s and 80s
Sheesh!
Knowing TA, supervision will send someone to the toilets to clean them out. That cleaniness will last until the next person goes potty.
-Chris-{Coming soon!transitpics.com!}
I would be more interested to see some shots of subway toilets. I think you could probably get some pictures of overflowing toilets or unflushed toilets which would be almost as powerful as some of the shots from some of the recent fan trips.
I think it was Dostoevsky who said that the measure of a civilization can be taken by the condition of its public restroom facilities.
If that is the case, New York must rank a few steps below Somalia and Papua New Guinea.
One time I took at chance going to the men;s room at Hoyt on the A. I opened the door wide and waited to see if anyone would move. Out of the back stall was one guy with a member the size of a zuccini. And next store to the toilet was the TAPD 30th District. I told the sergeant at the desk that a father and 5 year old son couldn't get in there. A minute later 4-5 cops barged in and dragged all the faggots out.
BTW, have you ever smelled the john at Jamaica Center? The odor will kill you standing 50 feet away from the entrance.
Been there, smelled that, nearly barfed. I can't begin to imagine what it would be like in the restroom itself.
Urban legend.
I don't have to, the courts of the State of Illinois have already established that he died from contact with the third rail and not from a current carried up a stream of urine.
From: JAE BOON LEE, Administratrix of the Estate of SANG YEUL LEE, Deceased, Plaintiff-Appellant, vs. CHICAGO TRANSIT AUTHORITY, Defendant-Appellee.
On October 21, 1977, the morning preceding the accident, the decedent informed plaintiff that he planned to attend a party in the evening. Decedent apparently left the party after dark. He proceeded up Kedzie Avenue, a north/south street which intersected with the northwest-bound Ravenswood rapid transit line. At this point, he apparently proceeded into the CTA's right-of-way in order to urinate. In the process of doing so, he came into contact with the third rail, and suffered fatal injuries.
The decedent's body was found on the elevated ("L") tracks located on the CTA's Ravenswood line at or near 4700 North Kedzie Avenue. John Costantini, a Chicago Fire Department paramedic field officer, testified that the decedent lay perpendicular to the northwest-bound CTA tracks, his head pointing north. The decedent's feet were near the third rail, pointing in its direction. (The third rail carries 600 volts of electricity and provides power to the train cars as they traverse grade crossings). The decedent's pants zipper was open, and his penis was exposed. The pathology report listed the immediate cause of death as electrocution. At the time of his death, the decedent had a 0.341 percent blood alcohol concentration which placed him in the stupor classification of intoxication.
You can see where I've added boldface that the decedent came in contact with the third rail. It also mentions his penis being exposed, but does not mention any burns to it, which would have invariably been present had the current entered his body through a stream of urine.
Yup... : )
BTW, what kind of sick hobby is "urinal.net". And people say WE are strange for taking photos of trains and stations!?!?!?!
Sick! To each his own I guess...
If I have to do a #2 I usually put 3-4 shhets of newspaper on top of the garbage pail and squat. That is probably gross. If it's a busy booth, I call for a comfort early on and hope someone comes.
As far as Iraq, I'd wait until the troops come homw and ask them if the bathrooms are better or not.
Da Hui
There at subwayspot.com.
As for all of the sounds, Ive been trying to get them also.
BTW, what is your old handle?
-Chris-{Coming soon!transitpics.com!}
Also (and this is posted, but in two disjoint places), those of you planning on transferring between the E and J in Jamaica tomorrow will find yourselves transferring between a shuttle train and a shuttle bus at Jamaica-Van Wyck.
The E was running to 179 even today. (The service advisory uses the ambiguous language “midnight Sunday,” which could refer to the midnight that opens Sunday or the midnight that closes Sunday. I mistakenly took it to mean the former.) The shuttle train is running between Jamaica Center and Continental, single-tracking on the Manhattan-bound track through Jamaica-Van Wyck and Sutphin, terminating at Continental on the Manhattan-bound express track. Jamaica-bound trains run light from Continental to Union and enter service there. Shuttle trains are running express in both directions; the layups that usually occupy those tracks were apparently placed elsewhere (and I have no idea where; the southbound 4th Avenue express was empty as well).
I would have gone with what you decided a few months ago. But through hours upon hours of research, it seems that "midnight Sunday" seems to always mean the "midnight that closes Sunday."
The rest of nycsubway.org answers your questions. The answers are already there -- you don't need to ask. There are hundreds of interesting pages to read and thousands of photographs to look at. Go through them rather than spending all your time on SubTalk and BusTalk. Then spend some time reading posts on SubTalk and BusTalk -- there are hundreds of thousands of old posts that still contain useful information. If you still have questions after that, then come back and ask.
also, go to www.straphanger.org and visit the bulletin board there. it's more informal, but probably a better place to start...
Secondly, for every line: there's a section of this very site that gives an overview of every line or branch or right-of-way. These include dates, the lines' origins if any pertain, and other things. Studying the subway map will give you a point of reference.
Thirdly, for every type of car: there's a section of this site for that as well. From the homepage there's a link for the roster of cars. There are the current cars, as well as retired cars.
Fourth; any other information can be obtained by reading discussion threads on this discussion board.
Finally, I encourage you to invest in books and materials pertaining directly to the New York City subway. If you are in NY, you can these books from just about any Barnes and Noble, as well as the Transit Museum itself. If not, you can order NY subway books from Ron's Books Inc. by mail-order (he has a website as well) as he has alot of NY subway titles. Oh, and that reminds me; visit the transit museum, that will help. Every little bit helps. Be a sponge.
I hope that helps.
R-32.
You need help, and FAST! Seek counseling now before it's too late.
Poor boy's BEST transit experiences around here are the CDTA 55 bus. And here y'all are busting his hump he's interested in the SUBWAYS fer Krissakes ... there ARE no subways here (at least where you can have your subway with or without cheese and toasted bread or not) and the kid is fascinated by it.
Granted "CDTA" is a *LAZY* phuck who won't go to this link and get ALL the answers (and pictures) he wants:
http://www.nycsubway.org/
But GEEZ, folks ... cut the kid some slack ... here in Smallbany and environs, it's CATSUP or mayo for your subway - that's as good as it gets ... and the only trains that run through HERE derail, or it wouldn't be news ... boxcars, nothing but boxcars AND TVX's. :(
But yes, someone's got to show da boy how to google without staining his pants. :)
R-32.
R-32.
Your pal,
Fred
PS keep reading this site; it's not just SubTalk, ya know.
"Piedmont's 'Dome Car' service
The dome car has been removed from service due to new federal fire safety regulations. The cost for rebuilding and upgrading the car to the new federal standards exceeded the amount justified for this car. The Dome Car will be sold through the State's Surplus Property Agency in the near future. "
And to think the page before that paragraph had an interior picture that got me exicted about the thought for a second.
http://www.officer.com/article/article.jsp?id=14765&siteSection=1
#3 West End Jeff
:(
Aren't there a few on this message board?
#3 West End Jeff
Would you be comfortable talking about your condition? How was it diagnosed? How does it affect you? Do you think Darius has it?
#3 West End Jeff
I wonder if he has internet access and/or knows about SubTalk ?
Bill "Newkirk"
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/wabc_070904_missingteen_follow.html
#3 West End Jeff
So?
1) What station did you capture this photo?
and...
2) In general, how do generate blur effects?
2. I set the F-Stop low OR I set the shutter low. But usually the F-Stop works better for me. I just make sure I dont budge while the display on the camera says 'Capturing'
Next time I'll give your technique a shot.
Your pal,
Fred
R-32.
R-32.
#3 West End Jeff
Koi
That's exactly why I love those cars; silver streak.
R-32.
The ultimate in obscure subway trivia.
Heheh... it's a nice picture there.
As of Friday night they plan to shut the pick down Monday morning. Six or seven grievances were filed over the pick and they are scheduled to go to the contract arbitrator on June 16. They asked the TA to postpone the pick until then and the TA said no.
Unless they come up with an agreement over the weekend expect officers and shop stewards to be at the pick locations Monday morning.
I was also told there will be informational flyers going out over the weekend.
When I get more information I will pass it on.
Robert
The pick implemnetation date is supposed to be 4 weeks it is over 2 months.
We are picking ridiculously early for vacation
We have two picks a year in the contract, not one.
The temp status of the job.
There is a dispute of safety.
The implication of 8 car OPTO, ther eis an OPTO arbitration agreement already.
*********************************
I do not have direct access to what they filed and I do not claim to have the inside track. These were the issues that were discussed at UMD meetings.
Juts a Though
At the time the B.O.T. would not place signals more than 1/2 way into a station. Now that the other option is the dread WHEEL DETECTORS, the TA would rather put signals right through the station. There are also Zebra boards now too, so it's less likely the C/O would open up if the train was stopped behind a signal 3/4 way into the station...
Progress. Harumph! :)
That very same #6609 was sandwiched in between #6671 and another unidentified R-17 to bear witness to Popeye Doyle and Frog #1 as they played musical car doors on the 1971 film French Connection.
#6609 returned to her old stomping grounds for just one day, on that shuttle. It may be far fetched, but imagine Gene Hackman riding #6609 33 years later, minus the jelly apple !
"I don't care how many bar tenders you got that are sick.......Nah, I'm not working that joint........that's right.........same to you buddy !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Peace,
ANDEE
In fact after the snack bar was removed and before the station was rehabbed, you could see the outline in the concrete where the snack bar was.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill: I remember the old snack bar well. It wasn't a fancy place but you could get a couple of eggs over easy with some toast at a good price and the coffee wasn't bad either. Whenever I would vist the city with my youngest son we would stop there for breakfast because of its convinient location. He got a big kick out of this restaurant in the subway.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I'll check my DVD of the film, I did notice an obvious green soda machine as the camera panned with #6671 and #6609 in the background.
Bill "Newkirk"
They didn't do it for TV. They did it because they wanted to do it, and TV asked to come along.
Thanks 4 representin' UncaBob!
Nope. TV asked them to do it. Mike is right.
Dude! I sooooooooo know a group, too!
The big question is: What's the best starting station and time, and what would be the best plan for doing it with the least backtracking. (So Stillwell Avenue should be open to all four lines first.). My first guess is to start/end at Rockaway Park and Pelham Bay Park. The rest is for someone else to figure out.
2) yeah, around 25 hours, which I find kind of hard to believe.
3) all of them except for a couple that were closed.
4) any links with more info.?
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/ultimateRIDE
My suggestion is that someone do this. Carry an accurate watch, and a log book, recording times, locations, and at least one car number from every train ridden. When you are done, you have a documented record for the existing system. Also set your ground rules. For example are express runs through stations ok, or must you step out the door and set foot on every platform?
Then let the competition really begin
Good Luck!
Gerry
-Chris
Al Queda never attacks allies, which Shrub is, most likely. BU$H + House of Saud..............
BTW, Given the flaq erupting from the NAACP lately, anybody wanna bet the Secret Service detail is 100% Anglo-Saxon?
I think I'll stay in Baltimore and run streetcars - lots more interesting and safer.
Boston will be gridlocked while the democrats are in town! I hope things go well in NYC, it might help the republicans up here :)
Gerry
What happens with new hires and others who don't have enough vacation time to cover the closing period? Will they be paid or have to take a financial loss?
I'm sure the Bu$h tax cut will help them through... LOL if only it were funny...
I chose to take a week's vacation.
What floor do you work on? Have they changed plans? I know information sometimes travels really slowly in this building...
Pataki and Bloomberg should have the cojones to tell them “Unacceptable. If that’s the price, then stay in Washington and give your presentation by video!”
Well, actually, I *thought* or *assumed* that it would be at the Javits, until somebody here corrected me.
Apparently the Javits is no the right kind of a venue, being more set up for things like boat shows or car shows or the like rather than having comfortable (?!) Seating for spectators. Or am in incorrect in this assumption what with never having been there.
Hehehehe... the biggest convention we had in Bismarck was of those people that ride around in those Airstream trailers and mobil homes. There must have been a thousand or more of the things at the airport. Special water, sewage, power and telco lines were brought in. It was like a whole city moving into an existing city.
Then there was the hailstorm, big hail stones the size of baseballs! Beat the crap out of those campers, and most of them all got their insurance through the same company sponsored by the club.
Elias
I never heard. But that did not stop them from holding there convention in Bisarck AGAIN a few years later!
Venues that can supply that much water sewer and power at the drop of a hat are far and few between.
Elias
He will not be. But he will remember the *warm* reception that he got here when it comes time to sign any bills.
Elias
I have no idea what Al would have done about 9/11 and the aftermath, but GWB has done even less except create paranoia among the citizenry.
Spoken like someone who doesn't understand the demographics of this election. Every poll shows this race as a dead heat, both in the electoral college and the popular vote. Turnout will be key. Kerry will need overwhelming turnouts from all of his key supporters. Not gonna happen. African Americans have the poorest turnout in national elections of any minority. Republicans have already made enough inroads into the Latino vote to render it useless for Democrats. Young people are unbelievably cynical and won't turn out, especially for Kerry. Only women can save Kerry, and his advantage here won't be enough.
Bush will win this election. If you're betting on the anti-war hysteria to doom Bush, I'd like to point out Richard Nixon's landslide 1968 and 1972 victories at the height of Vietnam, and this ain't Vietnam.
I have no idea what Al would have done about 9/11 and the aftermath, but GWB has done even less except create paranoia among the citizenry.
Since Gore and Clinton bear indirect responsibilty for the carnage on 9/11, I'm glad we'll never really know.
It should be noted that in 1968, LBJ, the man who got us involved with Vietnam, was so deeply hated that he "chose not to run" for re-election, despite being eligible; Nixon the victor ran on a campaign to extract the US from Vietnam -- he played upon the anti-war hysteria to win the election. Truman's experience with Korea was similar, though to a lesser degree.
1972 - well I can't explain that (Nixon kept saying we were going to pull out of Vietnam, but just not yet), but suffice to say that less than 2 years later Nixon became the first (and still only) president to resign from office (albeit for something pretty much unrelated).
(a) there was only one son of a President who was elected, and that was J. Q. Adams. Ben Harrison was W. H. Harrison's grandson, and the Roosevelts were distant cousins. There were a few other distant relations, but no father/son pairs other than the Adamses.
(b) Dubya wasn't actually *elected* in 2000. LOL Re-elect Gore in '04 :)
On the plus side for Dubya, (b) probably exempts him from the Year Zero Assassination curse...
The only sitting VP in modern times to succeed to the presidency (by winning an election, not filling a seat vacated by the sitting President) in modern times is VP Bush 41, who succeeded the wildly popular Reagan. VP Gore in 2000 and VP Nixon in 1960 lost in closely-contested elections.
City to Bush: “Stay Away!”
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
MTA = State Agency
Who do you think will win this argument. Secret Service calls the shots. They did it with the DNC. Don't think it's not going to happen in NY too. Especially for a Republican convention for a president who is the most hated US President in recent US history. At least I don't have to work in Boston on the weekend (the 24th and 25th) when the MBTA DNC service changes begin and I can come back to NY for that weekend. But during that week . . .
LBJ? Nixon?
Dubya's actually quite popular, sad to say...
Hardly. Reagan was hated by the left, Clinton by the right. The divisions seen today haven't changed in over 30 years.
What I meant to say before is that, yes, if he comes to NY it is necessary for security measures, however, it is not like he *has* to come or the RNC has to be in NYC. If he cannot be accomodated here (or anywhere for that matter) without disrupting litterally millions of people (and it is not a trip necessary for national security, etc.) then he has no business here in the first place.
I'm sorry for the spelling errors, I am tired as hell, it's 4:30, I think....
goodnight
I could understand banning trucks from nearby roads, and worrying if a freight line ran right next door, but commuter passenger rail? At most, I would run a sniffer dog through the train the station before penn, and even that is overkill.
And by creating crowds of stranded people or herding thousands of people through tiny gates and creating security checkpoints to back them up even further, you create masses of humanity which prove to be ideal terrorist targets - ask any Palestinian terrorist.
Forget about fancy-pants radiological bombs and all kinds of biological devices (which neither the US military nor the Soviet military, nor any other well-financed group in decades of scientific research, let alone a ragtag bunch of guys in caves, were able to get to work effectively) - what about a guy with a gun in a trench coat walking down the street - BRRRRRRP!! into a pile of people waiting to get into one of the only entrances to Penn station or herded into some narrow roped-off path or waiting in line at a checkpoint - that's terrorism, folks, and all these diversions only increase the lure of such an attack by creating juicy targets and stranded victims.
But the Secret Service isn't calling to ask for my consulting services, so you'll get what they want.
Not that the Secret Service cares about ordinary train commuters, so long as the big shots at the convention are safe.
(Selkirk slaps hand for saying that)
What do you call 10,000 politicians in a burning building?
A good start...
there's nothing else to say.
Fully closing Penn Station IS absurd ... but that doesn't mean that it won't happen. I still have a strong suspicion that there will be at least some periods during which it'll be shut down completely. I hope I'm wrong.
It's here(almost).
transitpics.com.
No more ads, long urls, slow connections.
More photos, pages, maps.
Coming in a few hours.
Due to FreeWebs Domains functions, much of my current site, here, is down. Visiting transitpics.com as of this post will yield no results. Please be patient. This is my fisrt .com site and I hope it goes well.
Thank you SubTalk. -Chris
-Chris
http://www.tvacres.com/trains_supertrain.htm
http://www.syracuse.com/business/poststandard/index.ssf?/base/business-5/1089448618238692.xml
I'm about to post an article from yesterday's TimesUnion regarding the time warp at Joe Bruno's train station up here. It's amusing.
avid
David
avid
Its up, but im still doing updates.
transitpics.com
More content coming soon!
-Chris
Now onto you having a job for me. Unfortunatley, I cant design things like that, but if you would like to make your own site with that template, I think you can transfer your own domain (anticlimber) over to them. Tell me the job and id be glad to try it.
Thank you for your interest in TransitPics.com.
-Chris
Actually, thanks for the suggestion, would PowerPoint yield the same template-like results: I have it.
-Chris
You're off to a great start!!!!
GOOD LUCK!!!
-Chris
Ben F. Schumin :-)
-Dave
BTW, speaking of hosts, could you put a link to my new site, transitpics.com?
Thanks alot.
-Chris
Anyway, the Talks are fairly resource intensive. When it started out I had it on the same box, which at the time was a sparc 20 dual 60 mhz machine. A workhorse but not too spritely. Moved it off to my machine at home using the vhost name brighton. Upgraded the main server and moved it back. Outstripped capacity again and leased a server elsewhere for the talks (which I reused the name brighton for). Bandwidth utilization outstripped my package and it was cheaper to move elsewhere. Bye bye brighton, again. The names are more or less movable at whim from machine to machine. The main site's been hosted on 5 different servers altogether from the beginning.
Thanks!
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=264729&category=REGION&newsdate=7/9/2004
Rensselaer -- Experts called to see why one of the four faces on station
tower can't keep time
By CATHY WOODRUFF, Staff writer
First published: Friday, July 9, 2004
Your train may be on time, but the clock's a different story.
The distinctive copper-domed clock tower atop the Rensselaer Rail
Station has four faces, and one of them has a sharp hour-and-a-half
difference of opinion with the other three.
"That's weird," said Stacy O'Brien of
Watervliet as she examined two
conflicting clock faces visible from
Broadway, about a block northwest
of the station on Thursday. "So, what
time do you go by if you're going to
catch a train?"
Neighbors who had noticed the
difference were divided on how long
the west-facing clock has been out of
whack, but a spokesman for the Capital District Transportation
Authority, which owns the station, estimated it has been several weeks
since the renegade timepiece went its own way.
Massachusetts-based Americlocks, the company that installed the
tower's timekeeping equipment during construction of the $53.1 million
station, was called in initially to reset the clock and repair any problems,
said Carm Basile, CDTA's chief of staff and marketing director.
But since the crew found nothing mechanically wrong and the western
face resumed its contrary disposition after being reset, Basile said the
authority now has called on experts with Sage Engineering of Albany to
investigate the cause.
The best guess, for now, is that recent severe storms have been
disrupting the computers and electronics that control clock operations
within the tower, Basile said.
"Apparently, there have been some power surges at the building and in
the area around the building," he said. "We've had other electrical
systems fail -- nothing major, but we have an engineer evaluating
whether surge protectors are needed or more surge protectors are
needed."
Station architect Frank Gilmore said the master computer that controls
the four faces is supposed to have a built-in surge control system, as
well as features such as automatic reset during transitions to and from
daylight savings time.
Coincidentally, the Rensselaer Rail Station is in august company with its
current clock troubles. Metro-North Railroad, which is in charge of
clocks at Grand Central Terminal, is planning to install a new $50,000
master clock next month in an effort to bring consistency to the New
York City station's multiple historic clocks.
While the Grand Central clock disagreements spark frequent frustration
for commuters wondering how fast to run for the next train, however,
the discrepancy among the Rensselaer tower clocks seems to go largely
unnoticed.
Few folks passing by the station on Thursday said they depend on the
distinctive tower for anything more than the pleasing view.
Susan Lupian, who can see the station clocks clearly when she leaves
work at City Hall each day, said she's learned to rely on other cues to
assess the correct time.
"The fire alarm is the only thing that is set correctly," she said. "It goes
off at 8:30 every morning. And the church bell rings at 6 every night."
=======================================
Actually, it's all pretty easy to explain - the clock in question faces the CAPITOL where nothing's been on time for over 20 years. :)
To the religious types, this would be called "Omen." Heh.
Uh, if you know the displays over at GCT that give time and train departure/arrival information, are they still the old flip-sign style or are they modern LCD's?
To the religious types, this would be called "Omen." Heh.
What locations do you recommend? And as for a general question, what chemicals are used to produce the 'steam' in those little models? What scale should I consider? Why are there different scales?
Pick HO scale as this in the smallest you can have a (live) steam locomotive.
Different scale is based on what you can affort, the size of the home, and what you are trying to accomplish.
OK... back to subway stuff..
They may or may not have steam engines.
If they have them, tell the rest of us about it!
Assuming you mean New York State and not just the city here's some info from 2004 Annual Guide to Tourist Railroads.
Angelica, NY Static Display 1-800-836-1869
Arcade & Attica RR operating steam www.anarr.com
Central Square, Marcellus NY www.rrhistorical-2.com/cnynrhs
Dunkirk, NY static display 716-366-3797
Phoenicia, NY static display of steam loco.www.esrm.com. You can vist this museum by car or take the Catskill Mountain RR from Mount Pleasant. www.catskillmtrailroad.com
Larry,RedbirdR33
Uh, if you know the displays over at GCT that give time and train departure/arrival information, are they still the old flip-sign style or are they modern LCD's?
According to Transportation Alternatives, there will be a formal opening of the bicycle path later this month.
Near the Manhattan end of the path, you can get a nice view of the 6th Ave service entering the tunnel to Grand Street.
Why is that?
The interesting part of this path was that it was closed in 1942 because the Navy didn't want people standing there and taking pictures of the Navy Yard.
Why is that?"
If you approach the entrance to the path from the south along Jay Street and you're riding with the flow of traffic, then you have to contend with a merge of traffic off the Manhattan Bridge. In addition they have put up fencing along the sidewalk leading to both entrances, which prevents you from getting on the sidewalk and out of traffic.
Here's the article about the new entrance from Transportation Alternatives.
http://www.transalt.org/press/askta/040709.html
The onramp on the Brooklyn side consists of a loop that is somewhat more steeply graded than the bridge, and the Manhattan end of the path ends with a bridge over the sidewalk that eventually joins the sidewalk.
--Mark
To stay on topic, I should mention that I kept pace with an N train most of the way over the bridge Bklyn-bound, which tells you more about the timers than about my chances in the Tour.
Going the other way (coming off the bridge), there are some nasty merges near the BQE.
I think we have too much access from the East river bridges and should now concentrate on other bridges. I would really love access accross the Goethals bridge because that would open up the Jersey Shore by bicycle. In fact, it would save me from having to take the HBLR to the PATH and the North Jersey Coastline! There was a bike path there but it's been closed since 1995.
The next bridge I would like to see open for bicycle traffic is the Verrazano Bridge. Robert Moses vetoed the bike path but they can still be implemented.
It begins:
"Daniel Simmons does not, simply cannot, take requests from the audience, no matter how much his fans wave and cry out for their favorites. These people just have to understand that he cannot, for example, just belt out his ever-popular "All aboard" unless a train is actually about to leave the station.
Mr Simmons is the train announcer at Pennsylvania Station, and his distinctive style has made him something of a celebrity to the hundreds who work there and to many of the estimated half million travelers who move through the station each day. A few aren't even going anywhere, they just come to catch the act."
Mr Simmons retired in 1994 at the age of 73.
I don't spend any time in Penn Station, so I don't know if there is any current announcer there with an equally compelling style.
There have been occasions in the subway, when I was really captivated by the sound of a conductor's voice. Until the demise of the Q diamond, I always looked forward to one particular conductor's somewhat weary but intriguing voice.
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
I used to love he'd call out the Lake Shore Limited to SHEE - CAHHHHH -- GO.
I rode his train *ONCE* in 1993.... he retired in 93/94 or so.
Wasnt --until-- his retirement that the NYTimes wrote an arty about him....
which made me realize ""that was the C/R I had ridden with"" that 1 time.
IIRC, he had something to report or inform about EACH station on the line
and made you NOT want to get off his train (because each trivia answer
was being given out AFTER the next subsequent station... such a class act!)
Bob
I hope the TA makes these fan-trip able or something... I'd pay the 40 bucks. Anything for those babies.
Bill "Newkirk"
BTW, any of my beloved Redbirds (R33 ML/R36 WF) there too?
til next time
What *this* is this of which you speak?
The upcoming MOD with thearnines and BUs???
If so, then yes, I already did spend my $40.00
Elias
til next time
-RJM
I did ride these during their short testing run on the 2 some years ago...but back then, I had no interest in transit unlike now. The announcements were similar to the ones heard on the Millenium Cars today.
\\Julian
-RJM
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
You got alternating colors in each car!!! How much more color do you want? Psychadelic tye-dye colored seating?
til next time
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
The MTA doesn't think this is necessary. They were only prototypes, and they did their work (or so they say... just look at the R142 fiasco upon delivery).
In addition, I don't *think* they're compatable.
Personally, I'd think the R110b to come back... even only with six cars.
\\Julian
I have suggested here that the R-110B's be given longitudinal seating and dedicate them for the Times Sq-Grand Central shuttle.
Now you'll probably say, they can't run five car trains on the shuttle and that's true. But I read that plans for rehabbing the shuttle calls for running two five car trains instead of two four car and one three car trains. Coincidence ? Maybe they'll wake up and use their heads. After all, The R-11s were a ten car prototype that was an oddball in comparison to the other fleet of SMEES. So the TA rehabbed them and called them R-34s and put them on the Franklin Shuttle. Better than scrapping them.
Bill "Newkirk"
\\Julian
\\Julian
\\Julian
David
Now let's of course be real - the only place where such speeds were part of the TA designs permitted for (thus the 44's and 46's) was the SAS. The "old subway" could never imagine such speeds. Though I'm pretty sure I broke 55 in arnines. DECADES ago when speed was only limited by amperes available. :)
Wayne says the R-6-2s were speed demons.
R-32.
It's always been a necessity for all trainsets to run at the same speed as a practical matter, though I suspect that the newer cars would have gone a LOT faster than the older ones if it weren't for speed governors kicking in. When you opened up an arnine, that was it - they couldn't go faster than their natural balancing speed. Newer cars had a few tricks that the older cars didn't have, and yet had their taps set so that they COULDN'T go faster than the older cars out there on the REAL rails.
As we've learned with descriptions of the Hippos though here, even though they're all setup to do the SAME speed, some cars are faster than others despite physics. :)
I'll second that motion. Those 40's are (were) faster than people think - if they could look past their reaction to the rectified front slants. Actually the whole '40' family cousins, I've found to be quite snippy if under-appreciated. They are bland but comfortable.
R-32.
David
R-32.
David
I beg to differ. I used to time various trains, DECADES ago, when they used to have half mile markers in the tunnels. Expresses rarely exceeded 40 mph.
R-32.
Line Route Limits Weekday, Time Miles Per Hour
Lexington Exp 4,5 Brooklyn Bridge to 125th St 10:49 20.3
Lexington Local 6 Brooklyn Bridge to 125th St 10:06 13.8
Pelham Local 6 Parkchester to 125th 12:17 17.5
Pelham Exp 6 Parkchester to 125th 12:17 22.1
Jerome 4 Woodlawn to 125th 1:54 16.7
WPR - Local 2 E 180th to 149th St 12:20 13.5
WPR - Exp 5 E 180th to 149th St 9:05 23.7
Broadway/7th Exp 2,3 Chambers to 96th 10:58 20.0
Broadway/7th Local 1 Chambers to 96th 12:00 13.0
Upper Bwy Local 1 96th to Van Cortlandt 12:04 15.5
Flushing Exp 7 Main Street to Queensboro 11:49 24.5
Flushing Local 7 Main Street to Queensboro 11:58 17.5
8th Avenue Exp A 145th to Broadway-Nassau 12:20 18.5
8th Avenue C 145th to Broadway-Nassau 12:19 15.5
6th Avenue Local F, V W 4th to Rock Center 10:21 14.7
6th Avenue Exp B, D W 4th to Rock Center
Upper 8th Avenue A 145th to 207th 12:15 14.5
Fulton Express A Euclid to Jay 12:08 24.7
Fulton Local C Euclid to Jay 12:56 18.3
Queens Blvd Exp E, F 71st St to Queens Plaza 10:38 23.1
Queens Blvd Local V, R 71st St to Queens Plaza 12:32 14.6
Queens Blvd Outer F 179th Street to 71st Street 3:00 18.8
Culver F Kings Hwy to Jay Street 10:50 17.6
Crosstown G Hoyt to Court
Concourse Local B Fordham to 145th 8:57 14.4
Concourse Exp D Fordham to 145th 8:56 18.6
Broadway Local R Whitehall to Lex 10:59 11.1
Broadway Exp Q Canal to 57th 10:20 17.1
Brighton Local Q Brighton to DeKalb 3:22 16.8
Brighton Exp B Brighton to DeKalb 3:23 21.2
4th Ave Local R 95th Street to DeKalb 1:18 14.4
4th Ave Exp N 59th Street to Pacific 11:13 18.4
West End D Stillwell to 36th Street 11:35 13.3
Sea Beach N 86th Street to 59th Street 10:58 17.0
Canarsie L Rockaway Pkwy to Bedford 12:04 17.4
Jamaica Local J/Z Jamaica Center to Essex 12:30 17.2
Jamaica Skip Z/Z Jamaica Center to Essex 8:17 18.4
Bridges and Tunnels
Manhattan Bridge Q DeKalb to Canal 10:12 16.9
Williamsburg M Marcy to Essex 9:21 17.1
Montigue Tunnel R DeKalb to Whitehall 1:43 19.3
Cranberry Tunnel A Jay to Bwy-Nassau 12:01 24.0
14th St Tunnel L Lorimer to 1st Ave 12:27 28.5
63rd St F 21st Street to Lexington 3:26 22.5
53rd Street V 23rd to Lexington 1:07 28.1
60th Street W Queensboro to Lexington 10:26 26.3
Broadway/7th Exp 2,3 Chambers to 96th 10:58 20.0
Broadway/7th Local 1 Chambers to 96th 12:00 13.0
How are these times reported? They don't fit in with my recollection (they should be larger, and the difference is certainly larger than 62 seconds, that's for sure), and they certainly don't match the speeds reported (given that the local and the express traverse the same distance from Chambers to 96, the ratio of speeds should match the inverse ratio of travel times, and they don't, by a long shot).
After inquiring about the card with the station agent, she showed me one and I purchased one with $4.00 on it.
I'm not sure if the MVM's have them, but the booth does. For how long is anybody's guess. It was reported on SubTalk that the Auto Zone store advertised on the card is nearby. So it's also anybody's guess is other stations have them.
Bill "Newkirk"
David
Maybe they have Redbird seats for sale.
Anything but their cooking oil, brah!!
I took the 9:19 HuntersPt Av. Train from Huntington and it was running 15 minutes late into Huntington...Now By the time we were in Penn We were 55 Minutes Late. Supposedly one of the engines completly failed leaving Kings Park and the one head engine had to pull 8 bilevels and a dead engine. Now the train could only go 35mph in these conditions and made it that late....LIRR Late Never...
DYLAN
The move explains my hiatus from subtalk, in case if anyone was wondering, so I'm back full tilt!
Who the f**k makes a camera with 2 record buttons?!? Oy!
I'm just going to crawl into the corner of my room in fetal position going through subway withdrawls until someone posts something about a T1... Or play Halo, or Metroid Prime or something.....
The (currently going through TTC withdrawl) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Mark
Shame....on you MTA//////X^{
Boring.
Finding H4 cars is fun. Riding H6 cars is always interesting because you never know what's going to go wrong.
-Robert King
By the way, part of the wall tiles at York Mills have been removed; I rode through on the weekend to and from the head office.
-Robert King
Mark
-Robert King
Mark
Individual NYCT Maps Available!
Click here!
Please check them out and tell me your comments/or if there are any broken links to them.
Thanks.
-Chris
Besides the fact that the line bullets you used are copyrighted, you shouldn't remote link them off of the MTA's website. Save them on to your own server, or make your own bullets, like I did on my site. You can download the MTA bullet font somewhere (can't find the link, but another SubTalker must have it)
-Chris
If you were going to do what you did, you could've just done one map and asked what we thought of it instead of going all out making incomplete maps for every line.
-Chris
Thanks.
-Chris
When the IND letter code was expanded in 1960 to include the BMT, the TA pulled out all the stops in an effort to familiarize the riding public with the new code. "Know Trains at a Glance" signs, with all Southern Division route names cross referenced with the new markings, were prominently displayed on station platforms until 1967, when the Chrystie St. connection opened. I remember seeing such signs. Still, old habits die hard. Brooklynites still used the old BMT titles and, "What's a Q/N/T/RR?" was heard more than once.
This probably led to the demise of double lettered routes, because the BMT didn't fit neatly into all express or all local routes.
OTOH JJ and 14 were seen on the R-27/30s and R-16s, respectively. I rode on a JJ once, in March of 1968.
Prior to Chrystie St., M was used for the rush hour Bankers Specials. On the Know Trains at a Glance signs, M was referred to simply as, Nassau St. Express.
As for a retrofit, I doubt it. As soon as the first R62's came in they new the bucket seats were a mistake because of all the complaints. I believe ten cars were came in with bench seats as some sort of test but it was felt that changing the order for the undelivered cars to bench seats was too expensive.
So why would they care about the color of the signs. After all it is only for the passenger. But when a high executive needs to have his office painted, they not only make sure he gets the color he wants, but it has to be the exact shade.
Micheal: A further difficulty at that time was the one-piece roll signs of the R-40,42 and 44 cars. They could only carry a limited number of route readings and if they were switched to a different line it took the TA months to install the proper signage.
Larry, RedbirdR33
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/210998p-181796c.html
BTW we got the Barberi both ways to and from SI and if it weren't for the different colored seats and the new window frames on the main deck, you'd never know that there had been a disaster there.
wayne
"Back in the day" we ran with the cab sash down so we could guess our speed by the sound of the motors so it could get seriously loud in there doing our thing. When trains screech at platforms, most of the sound is UNDER it - in the tunnel, every nuance was reflected right up and into the cab. MUCH louder in there. And REDBIRDS were the loudest of all for that for their own funky reasons.
So all I can say in response to your not enjoying the "sound of the rails" is "Huh? Whaddya say? Huh? Speak up!" =)
wayne
R-32.
Why? The screech adds character!
Michael
Washington, DC
wayne
Awaiting your Department of Tile report on DeKalb Ave.
Bill "Newkirk"
The reproduction of the tileband looks absolutely magnificent. Blends in very seamlessly.
They are going to have to retile a part of the tileband though...there's a part where it just reads "KALB AV" as some cables were cut through the "DE."
The station is really looking great. Can't wait to see how it's going to look when completed.
The R142, 142a and 143 have a very exquisite musics. Some of them makes a "violin-like" noise when they start pulling off. How? I wouldn't know for the life of me.
Thank you all in advance?
This used to be called a 'Level Crossing" ie: at Newark and Darlington ,etc or if neccesary 'Rail Level crossing'.
The expression 'Level Crossing' on it's own is assumed to be a one level Road/Rail crossing (Grade Crossing in US)
Grade level is where the tracks (or road or whatever) is and if something else crosses that thing at its own level then that crossing is at grade.
the (M) crosses the (J) at grade.
Sometimes the grade level is on the ground and there is a crossing gate, (or a diamond and an interlocking in the case of trains that cross each other). Sometimes the grade level is on the ground and the crossing is via a bridge or an underpass.
Crossings at grade wither on the ground, on an el or in a tunnel require protection.
Elias
Joe
Do you know if that had anything to do with it?
-Broadway Buffer
or do you know what your talking about?
North of the station,the tunnels widen out to 4 tracks...two turn off to Marcy ave ,and 2 run under Laffeyette for a bit....untill the bummer blocks.
Just before the station there a X over that allows the lines to terminate at Bedford or continue Downtown...Out side of the station,the center tracks merdge with local tracks...
At Classon ave,there is a layup track[or space for one] for trains to lay over if needed...
Wouldve been a good set up for sure....Many times I've found myself in need of such a service...[Bedford ave -to Broadway]..
-James
Anyway it all went well, But i wonder if the T/O reported that incident since the train stopped and left the station in seconds.
Because they were put there.
Given the choice between (1) an oddball train or (2) no train at all, I'll take the oddball any day. (On the other hand, a "purist" would choose to abandon trips rather than deviate from the official car assignment to any degree.)
David
How is that possible? Service is more frequent on weekdays and the running time is no shorter.
David
Now why somtimes do I see NJT ALP46s pulling amtrak train cars... I never see Amtrak engines pulling NJT coaches. Is there a contact between the two?
Dylan
NJT will take over operation of the Clockers in a couple years.
4628 on Clocker
4622 on Clocker
4611 on Clocker
Your pal,
Fred
Nope . . . expect the bilevels (ostensibly "Comet VI") to be mixed in with other (single-level) cars, pulled by the new PL42AC diesels (when they arrive) on other lines, and generally all over the place.
I only hope that non-rush hour frequencies will be improved. General ridership seems to be increasing constantly.
The NEC only has low-level platforms at Jersey Avenue (except in case of failure/track maintenance when all bets are off and service is abysmal). During busy times, trains either terminate or bypass Jersey Avenue, so the low-level is not really an issue.
So how does having 4 generally useable doors impact dwell time?
Is that why they are in the process of re-furbushing over 100 "end door only" Comet II coaches?
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
The less doors available, the more "dwell time" there is. That is the bottom line. It might not sound like a lot of time, but just 30 seconds at each stop results in being about 6 minutes late to Long Branch or Trenton.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/11/national/11RAILS.html?hp
"In a court proceeding Mr. Ryan (the manager) explained under oath that he drove to the crossing a few hours before Mr. Scarpelli's inspection to replace potentially defective signal parts. A dozen years earlier, the manufacturer had reported that those parts had malfunctioned in one instance and cautioned that signals with those parts might fail to warn motorists of oncoming trains in time. In other words, they could cause a short signal."
Hey Sarge, drop me an e-mail. I have info that Bagel Street is really Beagle Street.
Oh, and although I'm sure you're right about it being Beagle Street it sure sounds like Bagel Street to me!!
You missed the point there. The point behind the whole article was that an accident scene is not supposed to be tampered with before police document what happened and collect evidence. It doesn't matter whether the UP manager did it at night, in secret, or in the open. Of course, being an NYPD veteran (and you were a supervisor, not just a beat cop) you're supposed to know that.
"I mean we all know newspapers especially the NY Times are usually biased. "
No, we don't all "know" that. All newspapers show bias at one time or another, and the NY Times is no worse than any other. The article did report a study which showed that nearly 90% of all accidents are indeed the fault of the motorist.
"An example of the NY Times bias is in the article about the anti Semitic world court's decision on legality of the Israeli fence the other day the NY Times NEVER mentioned the fact that the decision was read by a Chinese judge!!!"
As opposed to a Bolivian judge who lets narco-traffickers go because of his risk of assassination? There were no personal risks to the Chinese judge's safety when he read the court's decision in this case.
The international court is a political animal. Ithink the Times assumes most people understand that (even you do). But the then the US and Israel play their own games, so this isn't automatically about anti-Semitism.
But then we know from your attitudes that, to you, criticism of Israel on any point = anti-Semitism.
I think the article was interesting and valuable. My guess is that in areas where passenger rail is highly developed (the Northeast Corridor, Chicago) railroad crossings are well-protected and function correctly. So the % of accidents that would be the railroad's fault would be almost nil. OTOH, accidents in places mentioned by the article (not the Northeast Corridor or Chicago or even Los Angeles) have lots of unprotected or partially protected crossings where the railroad is more likely to be at fault (though still in a minority of cases).
My commentary section is smaller this week due ot Johnnie Byrd writing a long and sarcastic letter in response to the local paper giving the most mean and nasty withdrawl of support to a hometown persons senate bid I have ever seen, so i only see one NYTimes columnist today. Bob Herbert, and I like what he says in this one. Calling edwards a populist, and giving Cheny's record on how he votes against Head Start, college aid, school lunches and against the elderly. Yea, i really want this halliburton junkie in office(I'm so tempted to buy a new book on the subject. There must be a lot of info for a big hardcover book).
Back to the subject, years ago Penn State gave the local paper, the USA today, and the times out for free in all the buildings. After a few times, I never touched the times again. I miss the USA today though, that was an interesting paper.
Just in time for the COUNVENTIONS! Here is WorldPoliticsTalk No violence, threats of violence or slander will be tolerated However the First Amendmend gives wide latitude to criticize our elected officials. Let 'er rip!!! Go th WorldPoliticsTalk:
http://www.nycrail.com/amb/otbrd/20.htmlClick here!
http://www.nycrail.com/amb/otbrd/20.html
http://www.nycrail.com/cgi-bin/messageboard/view.cgi?board=otbrd
WE WANT RIGHT WINGERS, WE WANT LEFT WINGERS, WE'LL EVEN TAKE MODERATES IF THEY CAN STAND IT.
Just need to win the lotto so i can free up almost 10 hours a day 5 days a week. :)
http://www.boarshevik.com/forums.php?m=topics&s=2
Our town is also < 700 people. We have three grade crossings, two with crossing gates, and the third with only crossbucks (no lights or gates)
Trains cruise this line at 55+ mph; about 20 to 30 trains a day; 95% of them 100+ car unit coal trains (east) or hoppers (west).
The crossing without gates is on a dirt road with poor visibility to the west (weeds and a small hill) Trains do not always whistle that crossing, especially at night in deference to a farm house right against the tracks. This road almost NEVER has any traffic on it (unless it is the town railfan or there is a train blocking the other two crossings.)
BNSF has been closing many such roads, but this one will stay open because it is needed if the other two become blocked. It is exactly 1 mile from the Highway 8 crossing, in theory a train could block all three, but they would have to try to do it. I can time the trains by using a stop watch against the whistles at the crossings.
With car windows closed (A/C in July and heat the rest of the year), and thumpy bass boom boxes in the cars now, the train horns do not stand a ghost of a chance of being heard. Still, I have never had a call to a grade crossing accident.
Elias
And only 71 non-reported, come on, we all know how the philly PD threw away or didn't report 100 times that many crimes under fast eddie. That's nothing.
Nothing unusual about that. Most accidents of any type are the result of human error.
UP is crediting the exploding economy with causing its service meltdown. The real cause was an unexpectedly high rate of early retirements when the retirement age dropped from 62 to 60. UP polled the employees who would be 60 or 61 when the change was scheduled to take place to determine how many replacement employees would be needed. The older employees all lied and said they wouldn't take early retirement, because with many years of experience with UP they expected management to treat them like chit and screw them out of benefits. Then when the early retirement date arrived they all retired, leaving UP hundreds of employees short.
Increased freight business is a factor in UP's difficulties, but the major cause of the meltdown was the mass retirement.
No matter what the state of UP operations and management is, the bottom line is that you have to exercise utter caution before wandering out onto a railroad crossing. No matter what the gates or lights might be telling you, always keep an ear out for the locomotive horn. There's a reason that trucks especially are required to STOP AT RR CROSSINGS, you know.
Thought the NY Times was the ultra-lib paper? In that case, why are they taking a far-right approach towards the funding of railroad infrastructure???
Because it isn't an ultra-lib paper.
It *is* an Ultra Lib paper, and it attacks the RR because it sees the RR as an ultra-right-bigbucks-Cheney orgainzation.
Or so they say...
Elias
Problem is, the articles come across as attacking the railroad because it's a railroad, which is a very right-wing position. They at least could have injected the so-called "left-wing agenda" of actually funding the railroad infrastructure out of tax dollars so that there won't be any more grade crossings . . . ?
Good point. One time in the country(place known as Bone Valley) in the middle of the night I came upon a crossing with the lights going. Not a single person chanced the crossing. There was obviously somethign wrong, but didn't see any loco, lights, or horn, and hurried to the other side after determining it was safe.
I wish people took this much care at a four way stop sign.
Poor New Yorkers. The Times makes things up. The Post can't get their facts straight. Newsday inflates it circulation. My kingdom for a legitimate newspaper.
http://momastore.org/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=14112&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=10281&categoryId=10283&giftCat=null
Shalom from Tel Aviv. Andy.
Then there was this blonde who called up her boyfriend one day and said, "Darling, I need your help. I bought this jig saw puzzle today, it's got a really nice picture of a tiger, but I just can't do it. I've been working on it for hours and hours and haven't made any progress at all. Can you come over and help?"
The boyfriend comes over, looks at it, and says to the blonde,
"Put away the Frosted Flakes."
i found it, still in the original shrink wrapping, at a garage sale for $1!!!
it's from 1979. i have no idea how much (if anything) it would be worth.
Try this !
Bob
Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming July 16th
-Chris
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Jimmy ;)
til next time
Here is a newer one they got. A pullman coach from PRR named the "Bradenton". A town a few miles ot the south.
And a steam loco was out on this day sitting there on display:
Luckily I didn't get bit by any snakes or hit by lightening during this short shoot.
The musuem is in the middle of nowehre almost. When I mention the middle of nowhere and growth on this board, this is one example of what i mean:
No cars or nothing around for miles, maybe hours. Why are you gonna build subdivions on this? No cops around even at all.
ANd a bonus shot of a new urbanist development I found. Very nice one.
To my knowledge it's a new addition to their fleet and it looks as if in perfect condition. I have to go back and see the inside soon. But very interesting history.
R-32.
On US301
R-32.
[END OF RANT]
Sean@Temple
I will change my password again.
I have no say over the governance of a website. However, I believe that such conduct calls for revocation of posting privileges of the offender (since he can do that to anybody for any reason). However, that is my opinion, and I'll let David Pirmann decide what he wants to do, or not do at all, as per his prerogative.
Did it just fall apart, or what?
Cutting back the line from Park Row to Bridge-Jay Sts. was one nail in the coffin. Same result for the Third Ave "el" when it became a Bronx only line with no express service.
Also add to this that the structure was old and weak with the oldest rolling stock around. I was told that Harold Fisher once promised that if he was appointed MTA Chairman, he would close the line and demolish it. He got in and lived up to his word.
For it's quaintness and history, I loved "Old Myrt".
Bill "Newkirk"
Willoughby! Next stop is Willoughby!
Yeah, I undrstand wy they would want to get rid of an old el, but they really isolated this area.
And the most maddening thing about it is that nobody ever seemed to care. Perhaps people back then didn't want certain people coming down the line. Now, 'those people' are all here anyway, and even they all have cars, (even the youngsters, it seems) or use the car services which are every few blocks apart.
Only some of us are stuck out there trying to get what seems like clear across the world.
What I would like to see is some sort of elevated light rail (like Aitrain) or monorail (like Wild Asia Ride). Perhaps even shifted to Park Ave. next to the BQE. But since no one is even asking for it, why should they even think of it?
For now, the best I could see them doing, which would serve some people, perhaps evenautally draw ridership, is an express minibus service along Park, Bway and Myrtle; maybe even open up the Acess-a-Ride system to the general public along that corridor.
Remember that in the case of Jamaica, it was a handful of large merchants who campaigned for the closing of the el. As far as I know, the far more numerous smaller businesses and residents were less eager to see it go, especially since everyone knew that the replacement subway wouldn't open for several years (though they may not have realized it would be 10+ years).
I don't know why there was no real community opposition to the closing of Myrtle Avenue. The idea of a community voice in government affairs was around then, if not quite as highly developed as it is today. Maybe people thought that bus service would be better than it actually turned out to be?
In the case of the Myrtle line, I'm not sure if there was any real impetus for community action. The groups in that line's service area would push for other things, but where was the incentive to fight for a line on which you needed to have a paper transfer to reach Manhattan? The writing was probably on the wall for that line from the day that the tracks came off of the Brooklyn Bridge.
I say the next subway we build should be an underground extension of the M subway - a reconstructed branch going to Metro-Tech Center in Brooklyn.
Hey,we can hope...right?
And you call yourself a railfan? :)
It didn't help the Lexington Ave el or the Fulton-Lex either.
The Myrtle elevated, like Third Ave, was victimized by bad timing, that being that it needed a major rebuilding at exactly the same time the prevailing attitude towards els like this was to simply destroy them. Had both survived a decade longer, both would still be in existence today, IMHO.
After 1944, the Myrtle El ended at Jay Street, having lost its Manhattan connection over the Brooklyn Bridge. So a transfer was required (to the A at Jay St.) for trips to Manhattan anyway.
Remember that the portion north of Broadway was rebuilt under the dual contracts and is still alive and well, and provides a direct route to Manhattan. I rode it regularly in the mid-1970's, when I lived in Queens and worked at the World Trade Center. Then the M train was through routed to Coney Island on the Brighton Line.
From what I recall, ridership was still pretty decent, even at the end. The line could have been useful if it had been connected to the Fulton Street Line and extended into manhattan after a rebuild. They were also proposing lighter weight cars to run on both the Myrtle below Broadway and the remains of The third Ave EL above 149 ST. The upgrade of both structures, along with newer cars and more modern signalling and stations would have gone a long way toward providing decent transit service to both areas, where today there is none. I also would have been relativly cheap.
I fondly remember riding in the summer, on one of the cross seats with the window open 5 inches from the bottom. You heard the rail joint sounds and the motors on those IRT composite trucks. Who needed speed ? It was a slow, but enjoyably quaint ride.
I did ride on the very last train that left Bridge-Jay Sts. on the solemn night. The train had to be 100% railfans, something like a rolling funeral. Ahh sweet memories !
Bill "Newkirk"
I (sadly) missed that ride. I was in DC covering gasbags in congress for WBAI that day. :(
It sounds just like "The Last Lex" in 1950. I guess the big difference was that they used gate cars for that trip.
It's more than we got now....for that type of service ,you have to ride the LIRR from Flatbush, or take the F...AND WHO WANTS TO RIDE THE F THAT LONG?
I used to ride the Fulton-Lex from Grant Ave to Eastern Pkwy, reverse direction, and take the Lexington Ave train out to Crescent St. This was a round-about trip but I loved to ride those gate cars.
These trips were caused by after school dentist appts so they were about 5 PM, and I normally could not even find a seat on the Lex from Eastern Pkwy to Crescent St. That just gave me an excuse to stand on a platform between cars.
The Standards to Jamaica were a lot more crowded after Oct 13th, 1950.
the renovation the Myrtle line received was a piece of steel rod from one side structure to the next ,with short ones in between...
This was done for the El south of Bway ,also...
So why is it gone,but the Queens upper still stands?
North of Broadway, what the current M line uses, was COMPLETELY rebuilt in 1915, just like Broadway was. South of Broadway it was not rebuilt.
That being said though, if the unrebuilt 1885 (or 1888) Fulton St portion of what is the J now was able to handle the heavier equipment right into the 1980's, why was the Myrtle el quote-unquote "too weak" to handle it?
IINM, the R12's (heavy subway-grade equipment) ran on the 3rd Ave el also, which I believe was also an unimproved elevated structure too in many spots.
Which helps prove, though in a roundabout way, that an elevated transit line is not necessarily a bad influence on the surrounding area.
An el is a two edged sword. On one hand it darkens the street, is very loud and allows peeping toms an excellent view into third floor windows. On the other hand it provides free advertising for the many stores along the line, and a ready source of customers.
The main problem with the Myrtle El, was that it served as a shuttle with transfers required at both ends, neither of which were particularly convenient. IIRC the Bridge-Jay connection required a paper transfer, several flights of stairs and some walking. The connection at Broadway was a single flight of stairs but you connected with the J or M which required doubling back to Canal St. and another change to go uptown. Of course there was the KK as an option between 1967 and 1969, but it never attracted much ridership. (I did get to ride it once on a visit in the early 1970s.)
The lossof the Brooklyn Bridge connection doomed the Myrtle El to second class status, along with its branch via Lexington. It is amazing that it lasted as long as it did in this state.
Not knowing the geography of downtown Brooklyn very well, I have this question:
Could the Myrtle El have been connected into the subway system at or near Bridge-Jay? (assuming the structure could be updated to handle the equipment end so forth)
Original el type work is still standing between Fulton st and Jamaica ave[I believe].......
Also, thats quite a tract without a station...why is that?
Also, thats quite a tract without a station...why is that?
That's because the original Cypress Hills station terminal was over Crescent St, perpendicular to Jamaica Ave before the Jamaica Ave Dual Contracts extension was built around 1918. At that point they moved the Cypress Hills station over Jamaica Ave on the "new" section over Jamaica Ave, and abandoned and removed the original Cypress Hills terminal station over Crescent St.
Many of the IND second system (most of which was never built) was to replace many older IRT and BMT lines. The Broadway El (as well as the northern Myrtle that the M uses) was directly targeted for extinction in the IND second System.
That being said, the Myrtle El was not really replaced by the G. The G line does not serve most of the people that were served by the Myrtle El. Myrtle-Jamaica riders have no connection to the G line (even though the G crosses under the Broadway El at Union St). M and J riders would need to get off and take the L to Lorimer St to even get the G. In the IND's defense though, the IND second system would have replace the Broadway El, tied into the Jamaica el, and replaced the northern Myrtle el with subway, thus connecting to the IND system, thus alleiviating the loss. But unfortunately WWII put an end to the IND's second system.
use to visit some fam at Norwood station...[you know,when the platform was WOOD]
THE WHOLE DAMN EL WOULD SHAKE AND BAKE when the train came in!
It still does it !
The 'replacement' is slip-shod and already needs a rehabilitation.
Regardless, it still could have required substantially larger land acquisition and excavation work in the area of Myrtle Avenue and Jay Street. Given the amount of financing available at the time, this might not have been possible.
The Silver corrugated-looking trains with blue doors usually ran on the B and there never was a roll sign saying W 4 St. It was just blank, often the white part that signifies "End of roll sign, stop rolling". The old IND R1-9 ran on the KK to 57 St.
The KK was introduced on 7/1/68, the MJ was discontinued in October 1969.
Chris: Don't forget the regular "M". Those were very good days. If you stood at the north end of the Dekalb Avenue Station of the Fourth Avenue Line you could observe the following during the rush hour. B,D,N,NX,QB,QJ,RJ and RR. You had to know your alphabet in those days.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Vengeance: It seems like the "J" was trying to take over the system.
We had the JJ,MJ,QJ and RJ all running at the same time.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The QJ replaced the 15,but I don't see how this could be...the 1967/early 68 version of this line only ran during the rush hour/midday/evenings untill 7-45 pm.The JJ ran nights and weekends on the old 15 route[168 st Jamaica to Broad st,what the J/Z does now]
The KK was suppose to be the same as the JJ from Jamaica.But it was used for 6th ave along with the morning layups from Metropolitan ave[was suppose to be MM BUT THIS WAS DROPPED]
The RJ was the weirdest...only a certain number of trips before and during the start of QJ service [about 5 -6 tph I think]...
the Eastern lines was chopped down to nothing during the latter years.
Although not always, our good friends that currently call the Eastern Division home also showed up on the route....
Even these babies showed up on the KK, and yes, the KK was always intended for the BMT, not IND.
"--nice shot. But underneath KK on the route designation, there's "Nassau Street." Did going through Essex/Delancey qualify the KK as a "Nassau Street" train?"
The car in the picture is using the orginal R-27 rollsign which carried a "KK Nassau Street Local" reading. If the R-27's (and the R-30 and R-30A's as well) had been assinged to the Eastern Section instead of the Southern Section of the BMT they would have carried that reading when assigned to the #14 Broadway-Brooklyn Local. Once the KK 6 Avenue-Broadway-Brooklyn Local began operating in July 1968 they simply used the old sign. It took quite a while before all the cars were re-equipted with new rollsigns.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, RedbirdR33
Considering the amount of underground construction in that area a connection to Montague would make some sense, possibly going underground well before Bridge-Jay to pass under all of the other tunnels under Jay and Flatbush Av. Off peak trips could have ended on the center track at Whitehall. Peak trips could have run up Broadway or looped back to Metropolitan via Nassau. Of course, knowing how dense the traffic was in that area of the BMT, something else would have suffered. The idea of tying into the Jay St. IND wouldn't make much sense, both due to the curves required and the lack of interest in the older els by the IND.
Gerry
Koi
Chris: The only common terminal to all #14 Broadway-Bkyln service was Canal Street. THe eastern terminals were Eastern Parkway,Crescent Street, Metropolitan Avenue (Myrtle Line, 111 Street, 168 Street-Jamaica,Atlantic Avenue and Rockaway Parkway.
This is the route that the orginal KK was intended to replace if the R-27's had ever been assigned to the Eastern Section.
The #15 primarily ran between 168 Sreet-Jamaica and Broad Street with a few put-ins and pull-outs between Eastern Parkway and Broad Street. There also were some very early am put-ins from Eastern Parkway and Alabama Avenue to 168 Street. The J and JJ would have been used on this route.
Larry, RedbirdR33
RushHourSardine: My response to Chris was a attepmt to simplify a very complicated schedule. As you state above the #14 did indeed have its western terminus at Canal Street. Its termini in Eastern Brooklyn where another matter. The TA of the period that you refer to 1961,1963,1964,1965 and 1966 give rather poor or imprecise information regarding not just the Broadway-Bklyn Local service but many of the other lines as well. The Broadway-Bkyln local service (hereafter refered to as #14) ran more or less as follows.
AM Rush: Westboud first three trains lv 111 St and run local to Canal 626-707AM, next "B" skip-stop service begins from 168 St from 708AM to 824AM, then from Atlantic Av 850AM to 946AM. There were also three put-ins from Canarsie 621AM- 651AM
AM Rush: Eastbound: service lvs Canal St local to 168 Street 658AM to 728AM, to Eastern Pkwy 738,748, to Canarsie 755AM, to Metropolitan Av (Myrtle) 804AM, to Atlantic Av 50AM to 912AM, to Eastern Pkwy 900AM and 923-1018AM.
PM Rush: Westbound: service begins from Eastern Pkwy from 305-343PM and also at 425PM, then from Atlantic Avenue 350-516PM, from Crescent St 521-612PM (four trains), overlaping with westbound service from Canarsie at 527-601PM (three trains),
PM Rush: Eastbound: Lv Canal St 330-446PM to Atlantic Av, 444PM to 612PM alternating to Crescent St and Canarsie, 635 and 644PM to Atlantic.
The TA maps of the period are woefully misleading regarding this service. They state that the Broadway Bklyn Local runs only during the pm rush between Canal St and Crescent St or Rockway Parkway.
The am rush service is listed as a "Jamaica Local" between 168 Street and Canal St with Skip-Stop service to Eastern Pkway. Since the skip-stop service only ran for about one hour and the #14 local service ran actually for three hours in the am.
Nowhere on the map does it tell you what stops are actually skipped in skip-stop service.
You seem to be a serious researcher of ancient subway routes. I have more detailed info to hand. If you like e-mail me at RedbirdR33@hotmail.com. IF you do not receive a reply from me in a day or two please post on sub-talk. My hotmail server seems to have a built in bias against radcons and anyone living on the wrong side of the 38th Parallel.
Larry,RedbirdR33
One oddity in this pic: Why are there holding lights on a spur track?
The date of that pic is approx. July 1967, pre Christie St. The arnines were still safely in the confines of the IND. Maybe some BMT Standards created that smoke ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I managed to see it many times,but not ride it....and my Dad was never assigned there.
Another piece of rail history I missed was the 3rd ave EL...I never went to the Bronx alone during those days and my Mom needed to go to Eastchester only....so it was the 2/5 trains she mostly rode with me in tow.....
All in all,I did ask a nunber of times to ride the old myrtle El,but hey always said no...I guess they didn't have a "reason" to ride...
David
Hence, the MTA when first established was the "Wholly Ronan Empire"!
-Chris
-Chris
If you haven't already been told, it was probably discontinued and demolished because it wasn't making enough money.
My family and I missed it once it was gone, because it was a great, convenient way to get from Ridgewood to downtown Brooklyn in about thirty minutes. A Ridgewood Times article of October 1969 or so said as much also. I probably rode the Myrtle el before I was born, inside my mother, while she was carrying me, on work or shopping trips to downtown Bklyn, in 1955. I last rode it in May 1969.
There were and are four bus lines between Ridgewood and downtown Bklyn : the B-26, 38, 52 and 54 (GP 38 Chris' "hell bus"), yet none were as fast as the Myrtle El. Why ? Traffic, passenger volume, frequent stops, probably.
john
Yet look at Williamsburg now. (Actually, I think the epicenter of the re-popularity of the area is actually Northside but it's close enough.) When I used to hang out there in the seventies it was a busy area, Broadway had plenty of pedestrians and there were a couple of movie houses and lots of stores, but you never saw many of those "artsy" types around. It was a working class area, all around. So now there's been an upward trend. Even with all the industrial-era trappings of the neighborhood.
Myrtle Avenue with an (upgraded) el would have been a grand conduit for the brownstoning wave to advance along. Brooklyn Heights to Broadway. Who knows? Maybe some of those old movie palaces might have been renovated, ala BAM. Anyway, the train (and city) fan in me thinks that it's just a natural, organic thing, an el passing along the rectangular alleys of the dense city blocks. It fits.
Hahahahaha!!! Thanks, you just gave me my laugh for the morning!....
The Myrtle el came down because the NYCTA had a general policy of removing elevateds that was continuous since the Board of Transportation took over the BMT and IRT in 1940. They got away with tearing down the Myrtle el because they realized they could get away with it (even they had planned to keep and re-equip it), there being no effective opposition.
Sorry, the answer is as simple as that. No rocket science to it at all.
Let's be thankful that community opposition helped prevent the closing of the Franklin Avenue Shuttle.
The Myrtle el is obviously still missed, one reason being it was the quickest way (30 minutes)from Ridgewood, Queens, to downtown Brooklyn.
There have been past threads on rebuilding the Myrtle el, either as light rail, or as subway, and connections with the J,M,Z at Myrtle-Bway, the G at Myrtle-Willoughby (Marcy and Myrtle), the lines under Flatbush Avenue, the A, C and F at Jay Street-Boro Hall.
If you haven't seen it yet or are interested in checking it out, go to Yahoo's LAUCH site: http://launch.yahoo.com and look for her "My Happy Ending" video (it it currently the top #1 video on the home page).
How the he11 am I supposed to know?????????? WTF! You ask a lot of unanswerable questions. Why don't you just wait for someone to post that they know the location?
til next time
Unfortately, information and arguments don't do much to shape the minds of those age 15 to 30, but image does. Seems like mass transit is on the right side of history.
Now, if we can get some of them to have a video of them actually riding the train!
By the way, I now have a question, and it may be obscure, but the footage inside the theater, does anyone familiar with the interior of the Commodore Theater know if that is indeed the Commodore theater? From the condition of the theater in the video, it looks to be abandoned, so was wondering if by chance anyone knew what theater that may be....just a thought
hah!
I was surveying in that area about a week ago. Building that had seen better days in, say, the 1880s, steel door with graffitti, some windows boarded up. Guess who lived there. A bunch of early 20 something white women a year or two out of college, or so it seemed. Not a place I would have felt comfortable in the early 1980s when I arrived in the city, and I felt comfortable in lots of places other people didn't.
What is going on in this town?
A combination of low crime rates and high prices in more established areas means that more adventurous types are going into marginal neoighborhoods in search of affordable housing. If the recent uptick in crime rates proves to be more than just a statistical anamoly, however, things may change.
I'd argue that the city is more integrated than in the 1980s. With crime down, Whites are more likely to move to Black or Latino neighborhoods. And when Black and Latinos move to White neighbors, Whites are less likely to flee. There are some exceptions to this, but those are my impressions.
Yeah is it kidna cool.
I recall in 1986, I had moved to the wife's territory in Brooklyn from the Bronx (there from Yonkers). You had Blacks and Whites from Midtown on the F, and Blacks and Whites from Downtown on the A/C. At Jay Street, all the Whites from Downtown moved over to the F, and all the Blacks from Midtown moved over to the A/C.
That movement isn't that clear anymore. And Blacks and Whites are passe. You've got Yuppies and Hasidm and Russians and Gays and Lesbians and , West Indians and South Asians and Chinese and Israelis and Palestinans and Africans and every kind of Latino etc etc etc.
But speaking as one who has lived elsewhere, all is not golden. New York may be open with race and ethnicity, but it's worse off than much of the Sunbelt on class. Remember, pre-1950 Republicans were the party of snobs, Democrats the party of bigots. Post 1950, Republicans are the party of bigots, but the Democrats are the party of snobs. And NYC is full of Democrats, right?
http://www.Avril-Lavigne.com/video.html
(Real, Windows Player or QuickTime)
The only scene not shot on or adjacent to Broadway was the cinema interior. This was shot in Harlem.
Glad you liked the video
The train is an image of departure and loss.
0:00-0:03: Avril running under the el.
0:10-0:11: under the el again.
1:46-1:48: train runs by the apartment window
1:53: camera pans up at track level. Model class of car apparent (R42)
1:58-1:59: train again running in the background (faintly visible)
2:35-2:37: she is leaving the theatre, under the el.
2:38-2:39: on the street running el again
3:00-3:02: on the rooftop, closeup of R42 passing by (appears to be a M on the rollsign)
3:18-3:19: R42 train passes by Avril
3:23-3:24: train passes again
3:25-3:26: R42 passes again
3:36-3:37: another train passes, but only the trucks and underbody equipment are visible
http://acm.jhu.edu/~sthurmovik/Railpics/06-24-04_CAMDEN_LINE_WAMATA_TRIP/Thumbnails.html
Here is a Breda at Huntingdon
Along with that bathroom everybody loves (BTW Oren, where is the video you got of this thing in operation?)
Photoban at DC Union?? HA! You just need to find the right vantage point. And to think that Philly will soon have it's own unsecurable parking garage right in the middle of PENN interlocking with glass stairways.
They seem to run a lot of trains on the Camden Line elephant style.
What might be the last 4-track B&O signal gantry in existance at HALETHORPE.
A newer install B&O CPL cantilever at CARROL
What you may have not noticed was when the picture was taken. The view from this ‘vantage point’ is somewhat different today then when it was taken.
Here is a more resent image taken from the same location
John
Otherwise, though, excellent MARC photos. And I have my version of the aforementioned Huntington toilet (Exeloo) video.
The Exeloo in Action (1.5 MB, WMV)
All in all, an excellent time at the Exeloo. This was Oren and Mike's first time seeing the Exeloo (Oren and I had visited it previously, but it was closed), but I had visited it before, first time last October 26 (that was a neat trip - three things at once, seeing Huntington for the first time, seeing the Exeloo for the first time, and seeing a rehab for the first time).
Still, though, enjoy the movie.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
I see two in this picture. There is another one south Camden Station around the curve west of Russell Street and M&T Bank Stadium.
John
It may have only three track running under it and three signal heads mounted on it but the gantry has the same distance between the towers as the ones with four tracks between the towers that are shown in the images you posted.
John
Mark
What going to be the real bitch is cutting in the new M Street crossover 1,255’ (382.52m) south of the existing location of the interlocking.
That will put the M Street crossover directly on top of the bridge over M Street NE.
John
Would be rather time-intensive to point the locos in opposing FL-9 directions. Besides, when one is taken off, the other is pointing in the right direction anyway.
that bathroom everybody loves
Can anyone say "Iron Maiden" . . . ?
-Chris
Bob
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy: I passed by there a few weeks ago on an NJT NECL train. The CNJ Station appears to be intact but the ex-CNJ right of way is sadly overgrown.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, are you sure you're not confusing the CNJ Elizabeth station with Elizabethport? The CNJ Elizabeth station building underwent a major exterior rehab in the late '90s and looks quite nice. I don't know about the Elizabethport station as I'm not even exactly sure where it is/was located (the maps in Jersey City Westbound notwithstanding).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Your right. Sorry about the mixup.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The old CNJ yard usually has NS power. Never any Morristown & Erie power in there. There is also the intermodal terminal just south of Jersey Gardens Mall.
I have seen pictures elsewhere, but I do not remember seeing any pictures on nycsubways.org.
The quality of the books in that series ranges widely. Unfortunately, the volume on the Cincinnati Subway is on the mediocre-to-poor end of the spectrum. There's much better information on the web.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A very tragic story but it illistrates how hard it is to climb back onto a platform as we discussed when that girl was hit in Queens trying to retrieve her cell phone. In this case it was a 6'3" college basketball player who was trying to cross from one platform to another.
R.I.P.
I just want to point out though, to all those who say high levels prevent people from crossing the tracks, well, apparently it's not true. I bet that if the line was still low, yeah, without a doubt he would've crossed, but he would've made it onto the platform. Still, LIRR didn't plan on anything like this happening, but I'm just making a point
NOT!~
When the tracks were on the ground and the platforms were low, there was a fence between the tracks to keep people from crossing them in the station. (Albeit in Merrick there *was* a mid platform crossover to the barbershop-newsstand.
But I remember those days... We used to kill about one person a month in Merrick, usually impatience at the crossing gate: running across as soon as the eastbound clears only to be killed by the westbound. Was very common. Wasn't much of a hue and cry about it either.
Elias
A very tragic story but it illistrates how hard it is to climb back onto a platform as we discussed when that girl was hit in Queens trying to retrieve her cell phone. In this case it was a 6'3" college basketball player who was trying to cross from one platform to another.
There's an infinite supply of stupids out there.
When the train sounds its first warning blast, it is 10 seconds away - under that kind of pressure he panicked and couldn't complete the pullup.
Was there room under the platform? Could he have rolled under it?
But this is Monday Morning Quarterbacking I'm doing here. Could have, would have, should have - the fact is there was a train coming up on him and he did the best he could.
Except that he should have followed his girlfriend using the authorized crossing, and then he would have lived.
I would say that a closer equivalent would be the upward portion of a dip.
I believe that both plaforms are clearly marked eastbound & westbound. Even if they weren't, these people were familiar with the area and most likely should have known which platform was the correct one. It's too bad that the jump from the roadbed to the platform looks alot easier from the platform than it does from the tracks.
On the main line, "wrong railing" is pretty common (at least it was when I was riding 3 years ago) - at the pm rush hour for example, express trains would use the east-bound track and local trains the westbound track to make stops at places like New Hyde Park and Merillon Av
I assume that Form D refers to a written order which then is relayed to dispatchers?? Are train crews then called by radio to tell them a train will be going in the opposite direction to signaling?
I forgot what the letter "D" in Form D actually refers to. I think it was mentioned in passing in one of my rules classes a few years back, but I don't think it was too interesting, otherwise I would have remembered. ;-)
However, while I do feel bad for the victim's family, can you say Darwin Award candidate?
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
But that is because all people are basically good. But a moment's inattention or stupidity. Who is to say?
But good people die every day.
Elias
A lot, if Kerry is elected. Vice Presidents traditionally have few official duties, so Edwards might be looking for some work on the side.
Nice to be compassionate.
For your claim to be supported, the following would have to be true:
1) The train had the capability of stopping in time at the earliest reasonable point where the engineer could have seen the man (the train was an express traveling at close to 60 mph and needed over a mile to stop even with immediate emergency braking). So this is false
2) The engineer failed to apply emergency brakes once he saw the man in the trackbed. This is also false.
3) The engineer was biased against blacks or other minorities and neglected to try to stop for that reason (do you have evidence that is true?)
To this we add that the man deliberately trespassed onto the tracks despite knowing that his actions were unlawful. His girlfriend knew that the safe thing to do was to use the crosswalk, which she did, and she made it across safely.
The conclusion is, therefore, that the man who died voluntarily chose to cross the tracks in an unsafe and unlawful manner and then could not lift himself out of danger. The evidence also clearly shows that the train engineer tried to buy some time by applying emergency brakes (the train could not possibly stop in time, but at least the engineer gave the victim a few more seconds to try to save himself).
So, unless you can show credible evidence to the contrary, you have nothing to support your claim. If anything, the engineer is a victim too - emotionally traumatized by the man's reckless and dangerous trespassing of the tracks. He endangered others on the train (who could have been injured by being thrown off balance or out of their seats due to the sudden braking).
Coming from you, I'll take it as a compliment. :0)
If you were driving the train, then what could you have done? [Keep in mind not even the emergency brake would stop the train unless it was running at 4MPH]
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
You can be stupid and live:
Daily News link
http://www.nydailynews.com/cgi-bin/email/send.cgi
Link here
Plunges 12
floors - & lives
BY KERRY BURKE and TONY SCLAFANI
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS
A frenzied fight between two women in an upper East Side luxury condo ended when one of them leaped from the 12th-story balcony with bite marks on her body, cops said.
The 30-year-old woman survived, despite jumping feetfirst off the E. 89th St. building and hitting two scaffolds on her way down, cops and witnesses said.
Otilla Cordero, who was conscious after the plunge, suffered a fractured skull, chin and shin and was taken to New York-Presbyterian Hospital in stable condition, cops said.
"When I looked up, I saw her body falling from the sky," said a witness who didn't want his name used. "She was still alive when EMS [Emergency Medical Service] put her in the ambulance. Her arms were still moving."
The drama unfolded about 5 p.m. at The Monarch, a 45-story building at Third Ave., when the tussle between Cordero and her 30-year-old friend spilled into the hallway, prompting neighbors to call building security.
Neighbors said the two were lovers in the midst of a breakup, and were biting and clawing at each other.
"She had threatened to jump if her lover left, and then she did," said Jeff Moss, 40, a personal trainer.
When cops came upstairs and Cordero's partner opened the door, Cordero went running for the balcony, a building worker told the Daily News.
Wearing black pants and a blouse, she landed on a sixth-story scaffold, then rolled off and fell onto a second-story scaffold, where she landed on coils of rubber cables that broke her fall, the worker said.
Firefighters, who already were on the scene because of an unfounded report of a fire, saw the plunge, then rescued her from the scaffold.
Edward Savran, a lawyer who lives in the apartment, denied the women were romantically linked and said Cordero's fall was an accident.
"One is my girlfriend and [Cordero] came to study with her," he said. "It was just a shoving match. People are making a big deal about nothing. It's unfortunate that she fell."
Originally published on July 14, 2004
Details aren't your forte.
I think you need to read the news story again. And rethink what you just posted. The man was ignorant and tried to cross over the tracks with an approaching express train running 60 mph. Now you try to stop a train on a dime at that speed. Working on a rail line myself, I follow this basic safety tip once found at railroad crossings:
Stop, Listen, and Look.
Jimmy
Stop, Listen, and Look."
I don't always believe in what I read, but judging by what Ron wrote, I can honestly say that the fault lies with the person who made an ignorant mistake of crossing a row of active traffic.
Bonus Question) What's the highest level of formal education you've completed? Critical thinking like yours is very rare these days.
I assume he was white since the majority of LIRR engineer's are WHITE
And what was the obstruction? The person on the tracks.
2) What is the field of vision for a locomotive engineer traveling at night at 60 MPH?
I can't say! I never drove a locomotive.
4) If the train was traveling at or below the MAS, how did he put the passenger's lives at risk?
He didn't! the assilant did by walking into a row.
Bonus Question) What's the highest level of formal education you've completed? Critical thinking like yours is very rare these days.
IRRELEVANT! But I'm not a train engineer.
After reading ron's response, I can clearly say the engineer wasn't at fault.
But I felt a need to give you the side of a person who loose their love one under these circumstances.
They drew attention to themselves by smoking pot in their comnpartment and somebody ratted them out and called the police.
KOIN-TV6, Portland, OR, courtesy Larry W. Grant
From what I gathered of the monorail, it runs between MGM Grand on the south to the Sahara Hotel on the north, just before the Stratosphere. It has approximately five stations in between these terminals. It is dual-tracked in that one rail heads south, and one rail heads north.
The rolling stock is strikingly similar to that of Disney World, with the running gear fitting snugly around the rail structure, and the ends sloped sharply and roundly from the base of the rail up to the roofline of the first and last cars of the consist. There are about three or four cars to a consist, and some trainsets are wrapped in hotel advertisements, but not others. The trainsets are painted in black.
*Inside Joke: Yes -- I did drink the Courvoisier on the Luxor/Mandalay Bay tram.
Still 'baby-sitting' us... :-)
Anyway, my first visit to City Hall was in November 1994, and I was "into" the subway a few years before that already, but I have to agree, there's nothing like the "first time". Stepping out there was like time stood still.
Welcome to the Criticize the Lax and Arbitrary Way SubTalk is Administered bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of lax management techniques by webmasters of web-board systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to criticism of the webmaster! Off-topic and harassing posts will probably never be removed at the discretion of the management. Enjoy! Please note! This site is not run by MTA New York City Transit!
i know what the PDF schedules from the MTA website say, but i've heard anecdotally from several people i know that there can be up to 15-minute headways at times.
i'm thinking about moving to near that line, so i want to do my research beforehand....
thanks!
David
This would both save money and draw more people out of thier cars.
I know tons of people who travel into the city to hang out on weekends who end op driving in to avoid 20 min headways at night
Rush Hours, each line is every 7 minutes, so every 3-4 minutes at express stations and 7 minutes on the Q local stops.
Middays and evenings: Every 10 minutes for each line, and 5 minutes at express stations.
B stops running after 9:30 PM weeknights, so from this point forward, I am talking only about the Q line. It runs every 10 minutes until 11 PM, 12 minutes from 11-12 AM and every 20 minutes from 12:30 AM to 5:30 AM
Saturdays: Every 8 minutes until 7 PM, 7-10 PM is every 10 minutes and 10 PM-12 midnight is every 12 minutes.
Sundays: Every 8 minutes, then after 7-8 PM, Q trains run every 12 minutes. From 6 AM to 8 AM it's about every 10-12 minutes.
The B does what the D use to do,except it's local on CPW...
Send a Nassau st service there or the W THERE ..SOMETHING..
At least with another local service,it won't seem like forever waiting for a train....
S/B, I believe that unless there is some irregular problem with the local train, an express behind it cannot bypass it at Parkside, and leave Church before giving the passengers from the local a chance to transfer. Anyway, it should be that they meet at Kings Hwy. This splits the line into two seemingly equal parts:
AM N/B: 1) Kings Hwy, all areas south, two-thirds of Newkirk, and Church, and half of Prospect Pk, 7th, Atlantic, and DeKalb; these would take the express
2) All of Ave M, Ave J, Ave H, Cortelyou, Beverley, Parkside, a third of: Newkirk, and Church, and the other half of: Prospect Pk, 7th, Atlantic, and DeKalb.
This is based on ideal circumstances, that the trains are exactly on schedule, with equal time between the express and the local north of Prospect Park, and that people of stations north of Kings Hwy have faith that it does not make sense to pass up a local for an express.
PM S/B, it's pretty much the same thing. Now, this was simpler when both Brighton trains went to the same place. Now that the local and express have different routings north of DeKalb, anybody who would have a more convenient ride via 6th or Bway would probably use that train whether it is local or express in Brooklyn. You can't transfer to the D or N because they bypass DeKalb putting them out of the picture.
So right now, I stand open to criticism only regarding having the Brighton Local and Express connecting at Kings Hwy.
i guess 8-10 minute headways aren't so bad, and 20 minutes is what you'll get all over the system overnight.
i'm just thinking about that 2AM saturday morning ride back into brooklyn...
Service is unbalanced reverse peak. The B runs at a 6 TPH headway leaving BPB for the first 2 hours in the AM (6 AM to 8 AM roughly) then there's 7 TPH until 9 AM. I believe that the Q in Brooklyn reverse peak never runs at more than a 7 TPH headway. This is why I said this service "blows" in a previous post.
David
David
David
Thanks.
: ) Elias
(If you didn't get it - trust me, you don't want to...)
Koi
But nothing worked better for me than some subway dogs, some mysterious orange fluids and a cookie, then back in the cab. Heh.
And YES, I definitely DO gotta get out more often - no question there. As a geese, I'd do Nedicks, but when I WORKED there and couldn't leave the property (heh) Nedicks was my MAINLINE ... after all, with a 6 hour layup for ME every day at Stillwell, one got MIGHTY tired of sugar candy and frigging NATHANS ... and that pizza place just outside the entrance REALLY sucked. (was pleased to have gone to a place near the original with heyPaul on Christmas 2001 and it wasn't all that bad) ... still ... NEDICKS was the reason why you carried a bag with you in the cab. of course, thanks to modern technology, you can no do 5 round trips in a pair of Depends without being the LEAST bit concerned about terrorists in that woodpile. :)
I s'pose what I'm saying is when you're "performing the people's duties" you have to be CAREFUL about what you eat - "comfort breaks" were ALWAYS a sign of weakness requiring disciplinary whips and chains, even if you were doubled over in pain staring at your floor heater as you operated. :(
If we HAVE an economy again (I keep hearing rumblings, but my banking account is still in the minus numbers) I'll take you up on it. Last time I came to the city (on CHRISTMAS) an amusingly impressive number of subtalkers abandoned their families to come out and play with Bingbong and I ... I suspect everybody had fun - even Unca Heypaul wasn't moody that day. :)
Got me some HANDLE time later that night on the 143's. Beat Paturkey and the press droids to that train by two weeks! Some traditions need to be maintained. Heh. But yeah, if it's like it used to be, then COUNT ME IN! I always LIKED Nedicks, the mustard and the funky rolls. The dogs, feh ... I'd still rather eat genuine STREET DOGGY if I'm not operating - and while Sabretts (even if they moved to Joisey) was my fave, if "G.O." is still in business, that would be an acceptable MTA substitute.
Anybody remember "YANKEE FRANKEE" though? Now THEM was dogs. (grin)
This was before McDonald's invaded NYC.
Subway food was ... well ... worth outlawing. :)
No need to go to Atlantic City - those machines were a real gamble. Sometimes you got nothing, other times they could pay off big.
I wonder if many operating people watch what they eat, so as to avoid gastro-intestinal problems while they're working. That would be a major concern of mine.
I'm sure folks will back me up on these words ... comfort breaks are a more serious crime than leaving powdered donuts on the seat. :)
That one is gone.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
That's funny. I've been through that area quite a few times over the last year and haven't seen that Nedicks yet. I guess I'll have to look more carefully next time I go through that area. I wonder how much their hot dogs are now.
Koi
Koi
Nedicks is back in Penn Station and has been for about a year.
Well coming from a civilized place - THE BRONX - I would not have known that.
Supposedly the current Nedicks in NYP.-From google.
Old nedicks logo.Riese Resturant Homepage
Nedicks (unknown location). From google.
Mmmmm Mmmmmm.
-Chris
Peace,
ANDEE
When you type 45 WPM as I do, sometimes you are bound to make mistakes.
A cheep date would be "Reservations for two at the Orange Room".
til next time
sell us the flying redbird!!!
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
The biggest issue with this is that there is no way the (N) train can provide for all the needs of the Flushing Lion. The capacity is not there.
Now, AFTER the Myrtly-Fifth Avenue Subway is built (It will also run on Northern Blvd), then much of the crush loading of the (7) will be transferd to the much faster 5th Avenue trains, and the remaining needs of the Fluching Lion *could* be accomodated by the (N) train.
Yet, I would STILL not send the (7) to astoria, but would break it free as it comes out of the tunnel, let it follow the LIE for a bid, making stops at some new HUGE panr-and-Ride facilities before following the Lower Montauk to Woodhaven Blvd and yet another huge Park-and-Ride facility served by the Interboro Parkway.
Elias
This could be part of the new station the LIRR is building to include the subway and buses.
The removal of the El over Queens plaza would be a good idea,as long as there is a even better replacement for it....
What station is this?
R-32.
R-32.
That would be a big problem; the platform.... this isn't the railroad you know, that gap is unacceptable.
R-32.
R-32.
what if the flushing route was jointly used to fit 68's and 62's
BTW...Even an 11 car IRT station is still not sufficient enough for the B division equipment.
R-32.
avid
8 68's = 600 ft
8 slants/m's= 480 ft
10 slants/m's= 600 ft
11 62a's= 561
12 62a's=612
R-32.
R-32.
R-32.
Then there's the curves out of Times Square which are quite sharp in their own rite.
I am very aware of the sharp curves in the City Hall area, and was quite shocked that 75 footers are able to negotiate that serpentine subway without breaking it's back. You should be aware that that's an extreme situation. The BMT at that point in Manhattan has to duck and dodge several other existing subway lines (even breaking into the Beech pneumatic subway).
Then there are the switches which are tighter in most places. All this is to say nothing of clearances.
R-32.
Well I know that silly!! I was merely making a reference to the turn [location] itself so that you know what I'm talking about. That said, the turn is quite sharp. I don't know if it's the sharpest but it's sharp nonetheless. Also, it may actually be more 90 degrees change of course, because - if you remember - there is a transition to consolidate the upper track over the lower track; then enter the turn. That might be done to clear the building whose corner comes close to the train; I'm not sure.
R-32.
R-32.
It doesn't matter why they're there -- the fact is that 75-foot equipment can handle them, so 75-foot equipment would have no problems with Queensboro Plaza either.
....Sufficiently long I meant.
R-32.
It would not be impossible to operate both A- and B-trains simultaneously on the Flushing Line using gap fillers. The idea was serious proposed at the beginning of joint BMT-IRT operation, but the BMT wouldn't pay for it.
If you want to see a truly horrendous gap, you should come to England and get off a Watford to Brighton train at Clapham Junction (IIRC it's platform 17). It's such a hazard that it's announced on the train and they employ blokes to stand on the platform and yell "mind the gap". I'm actually surprised no-one's fallen down it. (Cue: evidence of someone falling between the train and the platform at Lavender Hill convergence-divergence).
R-32.
R-32.
That's not true. That's just not true. Even though, indeed, the BMT had trackage rights, that does not historically mean the Flushing swithces were made accordingly. That does not obviate the matter. If you recall, the 60th St. BMT came to an end at Queens Plaza - stub end tracks. The only proper BMT equipment to ply the Flushing rails were the Q units; which were IRT sized - I hope you know. They could get away with it. Otherwise there was an obvious reason the standards and such didn't touch the Flushing tracks ( and I don't mean politics ). The 60th St. tracks came to a stub end just past the station.
I see what you're trying to say - being logical about this. However the logic is unrealistic nonetheless.
If you are observant, you might notice that the switches north of Pacific Street are about as sharp as anything the IRT has to offer and they are navigated by 75 ft equipment with little difficulty and no modification to the switches.
The magic word here is 'about'. If you were observant you'd notice that those switches are not that sharp even if they look so. Perspective has a remarkable way of foreshortening them - especially when viewed from certain angles - just like an upcoming curve on a road.
Look, please try to understand that the IRT is the IRT for a reason - and it's more than just 8'9" over the sills. the 36' truck centres - not wheelbase - allows IRT cars to navigate much sharper transitions than B division cars. Sixty foot cars have a 44'7" truck centres, and 75 footers have 54' truck centres. As such, you can't put a square peg in a round hole.
About the only set of switches capable of handling B size equiptment, are the ones you're looking at on the uppper level East of the station.
R-32.
R-32.
I'm not saying that has any relevance to conditions today, but realize
that the Flushing line, as well as the Lex (north of 42 St), the
Pelham line, etc. were all constructed in anticipation of an eventual
unification of the system and adoption of the larger car standard.
It just didn't work out that way.
The 60th St. tracks came to a stub end just past the station.
True until 1924, when the trail track was extended railroad north
towards 33 St station on the Flushing line. There was a 4th track
which terminated just before 33 St. Look carefully, remnants
of this structure are still there today
Re turnouts: you are quite correct that the wheelbase of an
individual truck has no bearing on how low of a switch number
it can traverse. The distance between truck centers, the
total body length, and the construction of the car itself limit
the turn radius. A #3.5 turnout has an effective radius in
the neighborhood of 125', which is the specified minimum radius
for all B division equipment. I don't believe any of these are
used on the mainline. A #4 is considered quite severe for mainline
use. Certainly none of the switches on the Flushing line are
worse than #6. So, a B division train could go over them, at least
if that's all there were. However, since no B division train has
ever operated over the Flushing line, "clearance creep" has taken
place and there may be wayside structures which would be clipped
by the overhang of larger cars. Not to mention the obvious
platform issues.
I thought that must have been the case. I've noticed for years that the shoe beams on B division equipment are displaced lower than the IRT. Hence they have different shoe beam brackets. I used to draw subway cars years ago. Having to pay attention to detail, I noticed that.
Well IRT equipment has no problem getting aroud the B division with the lower, farther third rail. They do it all the time.
R-32.
I am aware of that, I have seen it for many years and wondered what was responsible for it. Anytime I see a tandem set of naked beams I assume there was a track; like the Fulton St. el at Broadway Junction.
Even though you are a knowledgeable man, you tell me that the Flushing line was built with the B division in mind [I don't believe it]. Now you're telling me that the Lex North of 42nd St. was also; no way do I believe that. Anyone who has ridden an express between the columns of an express station should notice the remarkable difference in width between columns on the A and B divisions. It's there; and it's not your eyes fooling with you ( as I used to think). The fact that they thought it necessary to have a wider colunm space - which means wider track centres - obviates the issue.
R-32.
Should have brought this up a decade ago, before all the work rebuilding the Flushing Line started.
avid
Except then it would make sense that the N go to Queens Boulevard (and also the Q, as it couldn't terminate at 57/7, the F would then have to be cut back to 57/6). The R and W trains would then run to Flushing (and could use Corona Yard). The 7 train would be left yardless, which is where there's a big problem with this whole silly idea).
If flushing needs more service, they need to replace the el with a 4 track tunnel or increase lirr service/cut it's price to get less people taking the bus to the subway.
The astoria line has had enough bad drama over the last 20-30 years with the garbage R service, the temporary B reroute that terminated at QP during non rush hours (what a waste), the idiotic bus replacement on many summer weekends a few years back, and tmost recently the 'w express' fiasco.
We have plenty of riders, and have had enough headaches for one lifetime. Leave us out of flushings line's problems.
Bingo!
I don't think that Roosevelt Avenue is wide enough for a 4 track wide subway, so they should build two levels of two tracks. While they're at it, build a 34th Street crosstown subway.
If the MTA has another $20+ billion sitting around that they don't need
They should build a 23rd Street crosstown that runs along Greenpoint Avenue until it merges into the Roosevelt Avenue line. Also, a 50th Street crosstown.
At Flushing, build a lower level to accomodate in bound trains. Then diverge the four lines so that you have:
* a line running along Roosevelt Avenue (local), Parsons Boulevard, and Willets Point Boulevard to outside Fort Totten
* a line running to College Point, and to the Bronx along White Plains Road to Pelham Parkway
* a line running along Roosevelt Avenue, Northern Boulevard, and along Cloverdale Boulevard to Queensboro Community College
* a line running along Roosevelt Avenue, Northern Boulevard, and Bell Boulevard to outside Fort Totten
The transfer at Queensboro Plaza is very easy and nobody can argue with a straight face that millions of dollars would be better spent on cutting down a 25-foot walk at most than on countless other projects that don't have an alternative called foot power.
What the Flushing line actually needs:
learning how to avoid merging delays into Queensboro Plaza during the AM rush
extending the line eastward or at least adding tail tracks at Main St so that all local trains can terminate at Main St or points east
ensuring that any new Manhattan terminal is at least as efficent as Times Sq
figuring out how to run more tph
Eventually capacity in Queens must increase with the construction of new lines. The Queens Blvd express doesn't seem like it can handle any more tph. Unless signal improvements will significantly increase capacity then even if successful they will only provide temporary relief.
Queens, which was supposed to have rail service almost everywhere under the Second System plan ended up with two very crowded lines in northern and central Queens. The Archer Av subway probably unintetionally added more J riders to the E than E to J. I'm not sure of why this should be the case. Maybe it's fear of crime or the infrequency of service or the feeling that J service creeps along. But I digress.
Grand conversion plans while theoretically interesting are not anything most riders would stand for when the only alternative during retrofitting would be bus service or dumping Flushing line riders on the Queens Blvd line, which we know to have loads of capacity. Maybe at some point in the distant future when Flushing line service could be replaced by other parallel lines talk of retrofitting could begin in earnest. It's premature now.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/12/national/12RAILready.html?hp
second option is to make road one way and use long gates.
You can win.
You can lose.
NEVER, NEVER tie.
Fellow Employees:
Over the weekend, articles that appeared in the New York Times and
other newspapers made a number of serious allegations against our
company related to grade crossing accidents. While much of the
factual information in these stories is accurate, the tone of the
stories creates the impression of a company that does not follow the
rules.
That is not the kind of company we are. I want to address the charges
made in the stories and to provide all of you with some information
that was omitted from the articles. I want you to know that I am
personally committed to ensuring the highest degree of ethical
behavior at all levels of our company.
During the course of the reporter's investigation, we learned that
some of our reporting and compliance processes were not as thorough as
we expect. When we learned of these breakdowns in our processes, we
took immediate corrective actions. Union Pacific's policy is to be
100 percent compliant with all of the many regulations that apply to
railroads.
Many of the allegations concern destruction of evidence after crossing
accidents. Union Pacific's policy is clear: We do not destroy
information or evidence needed for legal proceedings. A few years
ago, the courts began to expand the types of materials they expect us
to retain in grade crossing accidents. In October 2002, we instituted
major changes to our processes to ensure that this wider range of
materials is kept. Additionally, we will initiate a program to
install video cameras on locomotives to ensure accurate recording of
crossing incidents.
As the article acknowledges, many of its conclusions are based on
statements by individuals who are hired to testify against the company
in lawsuits. In each instance, there is another side of the story.
For example, the article implies that we cut vegetation after a recent
Arkansas accident to make the crossing look better, but we carefully
photographed the crossing to document the scene before cutting the
vegetation.
The article stated that notification of fatalities at crossings to the
National Response Center was inconsistent. While we report
consistently and properly to the Federal Railroad Administration and
state and local authorities, we failed, in several dozen instances, to
comply with a specific requirement that we notify the NRC by phone.
We have changed our procedures to ensure that proper notification is
made in the future. We have initiated a further, comprehensive audit
of all reporting requirements to identify and correct any other
shortcomings.
No one wants to avoid grade-crossing accidents more than we do.
Emotionally, they take a severe toll on our colleagues in train
service, who usually cannot stop their train in time to avoid
collisions, and the rest of us, who feel the human tragedies that so
often accompany these accidents. We all feel a sense of tragedy and
loss when these accidents occur.
Union Pacific has a comprehensive grade crossing safety program that
includes system vegetation control, maintenance of grade crossing
warnings, inspection and maintenance of track and crossing panels,
maintenance of locomotive horns and lights, and training and
certification of train crews who operate the trains. We also posted an
800 number on all crossings for immediate response to stalled cars or
other safety risks.
Additionally, Union Pacific funds public education campaigns and many
Union Pacific employees voluntarily contribute thousands of hours to
making safety presentations to the driving public. We also sponsor
safety programs in cooperation with police departments to enhance law
enforcement on crossings where there have been violations.
As a result, grade crossing accidents on Union Pacific declined 84%,
from 3,049 to 489, between 1976 and 2003. The annual number of
fatalities from rail-highway incidents on Union Pacific for the same
period decreased 74% from 261 to 68. This improvement occurred while
highway traffic increased 80 percent.
I want you all to remember that we work for a great company with a
great history and a bright future of service to our nation. I
personally want to thank each of you for your dedication.
--Dick Davidson
Yes. Well, it *would* be inappropriate to comment on a fact under litigation.
Though it wound not be inappropriate for management to go out and remove a suspect peice of equipment for inspection and testing.
And track crews do work 24 thours a day. (sort-of, I guess...)
Elias
Wondered about that boiler since 1983..
#3 West End Jeff
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
- No W (City Hall LL is full of OOS consists, and one was OOS at Whitehall
- Northbound N/Q trains were running thru the Montague St. tunnel.
This was happening when I was going thru the area (11:30)
They don't make rails like they used to. Didn't this problem foul up the north side a couple of weeks back?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=58010&item=5108072888&rd=1
It's be cheaper to fly to New York and steal one yourself!
Mark
: )
Mark
Mark
-Robert King
Mark
-Robert King
I don't think that anyone would be that gullible - even on ebay.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Mark
--Mark
Original Posting
U have been reminded.
Your pal,
Fred
I missed it THAT time... hell no missing this 1.
I set the VCR, but somehow forgot to turn on the TV! I recording nothing but 2 hours worth of static.
I'll just shell out the $ and get the DVD one of these days...
Time to set the VCR ...
I need to get with the times...
where can I find a good DVR FOR DVD?
Did I miss anything? :)
"Welcome to the Criticize the Lax and Arbitrary Way SubTalk is Administered bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of lax management techniques by webmasters of web-board systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to criticism of the webmaster! Off-topic and harassing posts will probably never be removed at the discretion of the management. Enjoy! Please note! This site is not run by MTA New York City Transit!"
The on topic bit:
The train now standing at platform 1 is the fast train out of here.
I wish everyone all the best.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anti-semitism is France's (and most of Europe's) dirty little secret. And it's not just "outraged Muslim youths".
The racist right in European countries tends to hate *both* Jews and Muslims. As the report noted, France has the highest proportion of both these religious groups of any European country. Given their dislike for each other as well, it's an explosive situation, which Chirac is rightly trying to calm.
He's made it worse by both offending Muslims with his showing of religious symbols in school laws, then offending Jews by becoming the cheif Arab cheerleader in Western Europe.
I am WAY off-topic, here.
Mark
Does anybody have any track maps or know where u can get track maps for the LIRR. I dont know if anybody has them becuase it is required for the engineering test final but I would love to find some track maps of the LIRR..
DYLAN
Does anybody have any track maps or know where u can get track maps for METRONORTH. I dont know if anybody has them becuase it is required for the engineering test final but I would love to find some track maps of the METRONORTH..
DYLAN
but if you find anything of interest, please send me a link.
They have to deadhead trains because they need them out in the burbs for a 2nd run.
Nothing specific...
SAS
The TA and the TWU have an arbitration hearing this Friday which will be decided on the same day. If the TA wins, they get their 1 year restriction on the L for CBTC and the C/R's jobs on the L become "temporary jobs" amongst other things. And the pick will continue on (which started Monday).
If the TWU wins, then the TA will have to eliminate the aforementioned items and the pick will start again from the #1 man.
Robert
is it the same thing as the Keystone?
Dylan
New Jersey taxpayers subsidize the operation between NYP and Trenton. It would be inappropriate for us to subsidize service between TRE and PHL.
Yeah... I hear you, but I ain't buyin your lion!
NJT subsidises people (Jersyites, mind you) going to NEW YORK, so why not also serve those Jersyites going to Phili?
In other words NJ to NYP or NJ to PHI ought to be subsidised by NJ, but through tickets PHI to NYP might be sold at AMTK Prices. Maybe AMTK pays NJT to honor their tickets, eh?
Fares Fair!
Elias
NJ would be subsidizing Pennsylvanians going to New York.
I guess I just don't understand the whole point. It seems like what is happening is that the Clocker is being eliminated for all practical purposes. If that's the case, why not just eliminate it officially instead of playing games?
Mark
The Clockers are FULL of NJ passengers holding NJT tickets. It would be less 'spensive for NTJ to tun the service themselves than to pay AMTK to do it.
More importantly, however, are the tunnel and platform slots at NYP that the Clockers are using. NJT wants those slots for itself!
If that's the case, why not just eliminate it officially instead of playing games?
The trains are NOT empty and cannot be eliminated, but AMTK does not need to run them. They are already doing NJT business, NJT might as well run them.
Elias
Figures that I saw recently said that NJT pays Amtrak $12 million per year to honor NJT commuter tickets on the Clockers and that NJT would spend $6 million per year to operate the service themselves.
Mark
Not at all!
NJT subsidises traffic to and from New Jersey!
They could run the train from Phili to NYP and still not sell PHI to NYP tickets, but rather honor AMTK tickets for that service.
Could some smart ass buy a ticket from Phili to Trenton, and then another from Trenton to NYP. Yes they could. But you don't sell them in Phili, so they would have to get off the train at Trenton to do it, and that would drop them back an interval. (unless of course they pay the on-train-surcharge)
Mark
Because you cannot eliminate trains that are full of commuters.
OK: Why not just change the name of the train?
Because it is a known service with a Brand Name and with brand name appeal.
(Railroads, and Rail fans are bid on tradition, you know)
Besides, cutting an intercity route is not a trivial matter.
Elias
NJT already runs express and super-express trains. My guess is that when they get the extra slots into NY Penn (which is what this is all about really) they will reorganize the timetable to make more sense (like train A624 next to 3826), or at least that’s my hope!
If you want to use MNRR, go with the Husdon line, it has the best sights of the Hudson River and you can see several bridges overhead (Tappan Zee to Mid-Hudson Bridges.)
If LIRR and you have about $30 to spare, go with the 3 hour Montauk run. If not, then the Port Washington or Long Beach lines are excellent choices.
--Mark
Plus, since you'll have to change at Jamaica anyway going west you can check out the AirTrain at Jamaica (and for $5 railfan the entire system).
CG
I think it is $10. You have pay $5 at entrance and again $5.00 to exit.
-Chris
-Chris
CG
1. MN Hudson line(even better in the fall)
2. LIRR Greenport line between Ronkonkoma and Greenport(may cost too much)
3. LIRR Port Washington line(a couple really nice spots, plus views of Shea and Arthur Ash stadiums)
Also, the MN New Haven line and LIRR Montauk lines may also be nice rides. I've ridden both, but don't really remember much as far as views go. The Montauk is probably very nice once you get past East Hampton, and the ride of the Shinnecock Canal, though very short, is pretty nice. I think the New Haven line run most of the Long Island Sound shore.....
If you had more money, I'd say maybe go MN New Haven to Bridgeport->Ferry to Port Jefferson->LIRR Port Jefferson to NYC
or
MN New Haven to New Haven->SLE to New London->Ferry to Orient Point->bus to Greenport->LIRR Greenport to NYC
The Port Jeff line is probably nice too between Port Jeff and Huntington, but otherwise, it's ok.
Just a few suggestions there for ya
There is a very limited schedule to Greenport, so careful planning is a must. In addition, you'd have to take the main line to Ronkonkoma, which is rather dull and uninteresting.
Also, the MN New Haven line and LIRR Montauk lines may also be nice rides.
Tyhe New Haven line runs mainly through populated areas and has a gritty urban feel in places. It's not an uninteresting line, but the Hudson line is better.
I hear the bus between Riverhead and Smithtown is very scenic.
As the Ronkonkoma line goes, so goes America. Maybe it just me but I find it endlessly fascinating.
The line's diverse, that's true, but people who are looking for a scenic ride usually have something else in mind. You'l probably have to ride the Ronkonkoma line a number of times to fully appreciate all it has to offer. Somebody who's only going to be making a single ride probably would find better choices elsewhere.
or
MN New Haven to New Haven->SLE to New London->Ferry to Orient Point->bus to Greenport->LIRR Greenport to NYC
The first of these options, using the Bridgeport-Pt. Jefferson ferry, is definitely a good idea, especially on a nice summer day. I'm not sure if the Orient Point option is do-able in a single day.
I've never ridden either of the 2 ferries. I'd love to take a lil trip some time.
Only problem with PJ ferry, it's about a mile uphill to the LIRR station. Still, it's probably worth it.
I suggest doing the trip in the opposite direction (go to Port Jeff first, ferry to Bridgeport then MNRR to GCT), though. Westbound service from Port Jeff has a huge gap in service once the PM rush kicks in (train at 4:05, next train 8:36). Bridgeport service is much more frequent. Going this way you can time your departure from Penn, then pretty much be assured of decent connections the rest of the way.
CG
Actually, the steep uphill stretch between the ferry and the train station probably isn't more than a quarter-mile long, the rest of the distance being level or only slightly steep. It's really no big deal for most people, it's not like you're trekking in the Himalayas. Besides, you can always make the LIRR-ferry-MN circuit in a counterclockwise direction, that way you'll walk downhill from the LIRR station to the ferry.
- The old, abandoned Brooklyn Waterworks building
- A free-standing front facade of an old church (but the three other sides are missing)
- A few lakes
- An old car on top of a building
- Lots of wrecked-car auto body shops
- A duck farm
- A glimpse inside a lot of people's backyards
My guess for the least crowded part of the day would be late morning/early afternoon on a weekday. It's hard to say for the weekend, because of people going to/from the beach areas.
OTOH, give yourself about 2 to 2:30 each way for the trip. It's about $19.60 roundtrip ($14.75 off-peak), and IMHO, well worth it.
Good luck, no answer has to be in the form of a question.
tho it could very well be City Hall (some centennial surprise)
Congrats toro, well done.
If we go via Orient Point, then we'll take Suffolk Transit to Greenport, maybe visit the RMLI museum there, if time(most likely won't be), LIRR Greenport line to RMLI in Riverhead. If not, then LIRR Greenport line to NYP(I'll probably be gettin off at Mineola).
If via Montauk, bus to LIRR Montauk, LIRR Montauk line to NYP.
So....who's in? Which would you rather do?
CG
Hmmmmm...maybe MN New Haven to Bridgeport, ferry to PJ, bus to Riverhead, spend time at RMLI Riverhead, LIRR Greenport to NYP.
LIRR used to sponsor such weekend trips. Do they still do so.
I remember my Father taking me on such a trip back in the early 60s.
Elias
As for the ferry, spend the extra 5 bucks and ride the Sea-Jet.. I'd recommend a reservation.
Your pal,
Fred
Thanks for the fare info on Amtrak. I may re-route via Bridgeport-PJ ferry, or I'll just tkae Amtrak from NYP to New London if it aint too expensive.
You can catch Amtrak in Bridgeport too; it's a short hike from the ferry terminal there.
Your pal,
Fred
Across from the 165 st bus terminal....
Any takers? I have a Pay Pal account.
Thanks George.
>>transitpics.com EZmaps Section
-Chris
aem7
AEM7
There is something to be said for the philosophy of "little and often" - the basic Glasgow to Edinburgh service is now every fifteen minutes, so you don't need ten-car trains. The height and width are small because of the small UK loading gauge, of course. Size apart, how do they suck, compared with (say) MNR or LIRR? What's basically wrong with them? My main grouse about 158s is their long dwell times, because they have only one narrow door at each end of the car. The 170s cured that, with two double-leaf doors at one-third and two-thirds of the way along the car.
I agree, except that I am not sure the philosophy applies for the Edinburgh-Glasgow line beyond every 30 mins. Track capacity has become a major issue and while a lot more people have been using the trains I am not convinced that the fully allocated cost is justified. But neither are many other schemes on the rails.
The height and width are small because of the small UK loading gauge, of course.
I think I began to take certain things about the U.S. system for granted (e.g. when on a high platform, there is no step when boarding the train); I also got used to the large seats. Actually the 170 seats sucked from day 1; I remember commenting about it when I worked there.
My main grouse about 158s is their long dwell times, because they have only one narrow door at each end of the car.
They are not transit cars; they were intended for intercity services!
The 170s cured that, with two double-leaf doors at one-third and two-thirds of the way along the car.
True, at the expense of a more transit-car like feel and less seating. That said, the kind of service the 170s are running here (Edinburgh-Aberdeen via all local stops; Edinburgh-Inverness via most local stops) are really transit markets, and 170s were the right choice. Pity about the engine noise, the step up from platform, and just generally being a small car.
AEM7
Before aem7 can chime in, the Scots are absolutely not English. They are British, which they will grudgingly admit when pushed.
Ditto the Welsh, and Northern Irish.
People living outside of England abhor the synecdoche English=>British.
Some Englishmen, however, have revelled in it. See here.
Me: I’m a mutt. Scots mother, English father!
Flanders and Swann *were* satirists, though very gentle ones - they were actually poking fun at the superior airs of the English. (Donald Swann's ancestry was actually partly from Soviet Central Asia - in one of their songs he talks about his Uncle Mohammed. He also sings the hippopotamus song in Russian at one point.)
How long you gonna be there for?
I wonder where the sample shot was taken?
-Robert King
ANd of course you had your camera on hand to take a picture of the camera, they shoudl market that. :)
mike
-Robert King
Does anyone have an idea of the age of this old deck?
This locomotive was built in the 20's and the photo is from 1930. I'd guess that the playing cards would feature the newest rolling stock on the line at that time, so probably late 20's or so.
Your pal,
Fred
I must have a very old deck of cards here! The "Yankee Clipper" must have been a crack passenger train of the time.
Thanks for your help, Fred!
I've read that the 'Yankee Clipper' and the 'Merchant's Limited' were the premiere trains that the NYNHH ran. What that means I don't know, but I'd guess they were more than just commuter trains.
Your pal,
Fred
This is at the station at Westerly, RI, probably the most ornate station on the line.
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
He wonders if Bob Allard is still the ticket agent at Westerly, do you know?
Thanks so much for the pictures, he really enjoyed them.
Your pal,
Fred
Gerry
Your pal,
Fred
No they weren't. The Yankee Clipper left South Sta/GCT at 1 PM and arrived at GCT/South Sta at 5:15. The Merchants Limited also took 4 1/4 hours to go between South Sta and Grand Central, leaving both stations at 5:00 (or was it 5:30?), back in the days of the NY, NY & H RR.
I believe the Comets managed to cut travel time down to 3 3/4 hours but they were long gone when I took both the Clipper and the Merchants in the late 50's and early 60's.
But what about the regular fare? In 1930 the parlor car surcharge was $1.50 but added to that was the regular fare of $8.26.
In the 1930s and 1940s they were all reserved, all parlor trains, with diners, and in later years added grill cars and coaches.
In 1951, one could stand at Union Station in New Haven and witness steam, diesel and electric locomotives pulling trains. Amazing!
Your pal,
Fred
Still, a bottle of Sammy for $2.25 tain't too bad.
Your pal,
Fred
First, the tail end of the Yankee Clipper
Then, the Merchants' Limited
Next time I'm there I'll get better photos; Today I had a train to catch!
Your pal,
Fred
No "E" and "V" service.
Thanks.
Yes
And it would be...?
I think they wanted it to be sort of random and not to have it be another foamer trip yet with the regular passengers weirded out with no price tag attached, donation or not.
Commissioner Enright went to the wreck to direct the police, in their efforts to find the names of the men who
were running the train. They found none of the officials of the transit company were able to give them the
names because the regular men were not in their places on account of the strike. The police reported to the
Commissioner that officials of the B.R.T and employees as well had showed disinclination to aid in
discovering the names of the motorman and guards.
By direction of the Commissioner and District Attorney Lewis, Acting Captain Jon Coughlin, in command of
the Sixth Branch Detective Bureau, confined the efforts of his men last night to search for the motorman and
other employees.
From:
http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/brighton/malbone01.html
Koi
Koi
Koi
-RJM
Koi
Jimmy
Try again
"Pic 2: Dyckman St"
Correct
"Pic 3: 72 St and Broadway"
Nope
Koi
1) 191 St 1/9 line
3) Atlantic Ave/Flatbush Ave(the new sky light)
Jimmy
"3) Atlantic Ave/Flatbush Ave(the new sky light)"
Nope
Koi
Pic #2: Dycknam St, 1/9 line
Pic #3: Atlantic Avenue, 2/3/4/5/B/D/M/N/Q/R station?
SAS
"Pic #3: Atlantic Avenue, 2/3/4/5/B/D/M/N/Q/R station?"
Try again
Koi
The 3rd pic reminds me of the Gun Hill Rd area.
The third pic wasn't taken near the Gun Hill Rd. area.
Koi
For the third one, I'm thinking one of the deep-tunnel stations, maybe 191st. I know the IND stations in the area have elaborate station houses at grade, so perhaps the same is true on the IRT (although I haven't seen them myself).
Correct. That was the first time I've seen pigeons in a station that is not right near a tunnel exit/entrance to the outside.
"For the third one, I'm thinking one of the deep-tunnel stations, maybe 191st. I know the IND stations in the area have elaborate station houses at grade, so perhaps the same is true on the IRT (although I haven't seen them myself)."
Try again
Koi
Koi
Koi
just think about what it's doing to you guts....
http://forum.nyctba.com/showthread.php?t=941
As useful as subtalk is, there aren't a LOT of people using BVE here. The other place is their nest. :)
Reason I suggest this is that some of the routes are tricky, and the files might not always end up where they belong. A lot of the older packages had that problem. After a while, you get to know the layout and know that certain things belong under "routes" and other things belong under "train" and you learn to move them when you get errors. My concern is that I doubt Unca Dave wants this to turn into a BVE support site since there's already a really good one at that place.
I used to link people to a site called "BVE Helper" that had a wonderfully concise (in ENGLISH) tutorial. Alas, AOL being AOL closed it down because it ate too much bandwidth.
This thread inspired me to get BVE and it ROCKS! Beats msts by a long shot!
-Chris
All the things the TA never permitted. Heh.
Can you help?
-Chris
Check to see if there is some other program running that is using your system's audio.
Some programs that may cause this problem are CD players, jukebox programs,
RealPlayer, or Windows Media Player.
If there are no other programs running, then there may be a problem with DirectX or a
DirectX-related setting that needs to be changed. Click here to go to the Microsoft DirectX
Support Center.
-Chris
BTW, I am going to add a link to your site on my site, transitpics.com. Could u do the same?
-Chris
-Chris
Odds are it goes via the main line.
I took a train the other way a few weeks ago, Montauk to LIC, and it made stops in Mineola and Hicksville. So it went over the main line.
I don't know why your train made an unscheduled stop at Babylon, it was not supposed to.
He didn't say that it did, only that it ran non-stop to Babylon (meaning it could have taken either routing). Non-Stop to westhampton includes non-stop through Babylon.
Oh well, so much for semantics!
Elias : )
It leaves Hunterspoint Ave at 4:06 and Jamaica at 4:25. The next stop is Westhampton at 5:39. That's 74 minutes running time, compared to the typical 113 minutes on the express to Babylon and then local thereafter trip. That's a pretty impressive time savings.
Interesting note about the Cannonball -- it is slower east of Westhampton on Fridays than it is on Thursdays. This is because it is so long on the Friday run that it has to stop at each station twice. Once for the front of the train and once for the back.
CG
It leaves Hunterspoint Ave at 4:06 and Jamaica at 4:25. The next stop is Westhampton at 5:39. That's 74 minutes running time, compared to the typical 113 minutes on the express to Babylon and then local thereafter trip. That's a pretty impressive time savings.
Interesting note about the Cannonball -- it is slower east of Westhampton on Fridays than it is on Thursdays. This is because it is so long on the Friday run that it has to stop at each station twice. Once for the front of the train and once for the back.
CG
(Sorry for the duplicate post. I mistakenly posted this as a reply to another post...)
Any others. I also looked at UPenn, but I probably would have no chance of getting in.
BTW, have you considered specializing in procurement/materiel/logistics? There are industry certifications for that. That's useful - and part of MTA's incredible improvement in the 1980s was a totally new procurement system.
what department you apply to can have a lot to do with it, too.
http://www.iit.edu/~ce/undergraduate_programs.html
Has great profs too. And Chicago is the rail capital.
Matt
I'd probably really like Chicago, especially with the els and all. I have enough fun with it in train sim, lol.
Is there an airport closer to Urbana? Springfield has one, right(my mom will fly, I don't know yet, I may decide to fly, but I may just take the bus or train).
Good luck with your search, it can be a hard choice.
Matt
Hmmmmm.....railsale for September....you got any details on it?
They have updated the list and it is no longer on it, however that seems to be one of the more popular sales, so check back and see if it comes up again soon. Regular fares should be fairly reasonable if booked well in advance. It might be a very long ride as it is on average slower than driving, which would be about 14 hours (depending on if you drive like you're in a switcher or an Acela). The scheduled time for the Three Rivers (train nos. 40 and 41) appears to be about 19 to 20 hours.
Matt
Thanks for telling me where the railsale link was. For some reason, I could never find it.
Matt
Also, consider what traditional areas of engineering you enjoy that are applicable to transportation (civil, electrical, mechanical, environmental, computer). Do you want to join a transit authority, or do you see yourself working for Kawasaki or Bombardier or any of the many suppliers (such as companies designing and building brakes, power systems, communication systems, signaling)?
Attend a trade show sponsored by the American Public Transit Association or a similar show and visit all the company exhibits and booths to see what they do.
As far as exactly what I want to do....well...basically, it's just be able to run a transit system, or some sort of route planning. A lot of the courses I've been looking at really get down into how to do possible ridership stats, route planning, and almost every detail it seems relating to the operation of a transit system. This is exactly what I want.
Now I've worked in the service industry and have a B.S. it it, and I could've choosen focus tracks in things like airline management etc. I'm not going to see any engineers from Lockheed running United anytime soon. If this is the case, kiss United goodbye. What's similiar to airlines? ANything that's an intangible service. Trains, buses, hotels, etc...
Trump runs a lot of buildings, was he an electrical engineer?
I'm sorry to sound pessimistic, but i haven't seen other examples of people wanting to run a business that's in the intangibles going to grab engineering degree's. If I wanted to run the FLorida HSR I would've had the airline track.
Maybe you're looking at city planning or something similiar and how to fit that in, or you want to design cool new LRT's and other intricate things. But the designers up in Detriot making ugly SUV's aren't becoming chairmen of any toll authority's soon.
And I think that's where some people on this board think they're gonna be heading. It's up to the rest of us to tell the engineers if what they design is impractical, stupid, or expensive, because that part isn't their job, and us, the people running whatever it is their building for have to watch out. If we don't, the whole system is a living hell to operate with some screwed up design.
And if you think transportation engineering isn't what I should be majoring in, than what do you think is the correct course? City planning and civil engineering I think are more revolved around constructing road systems, as well as buildings and stuff like that, deciding what goes where. I just want to do what I do best, plan out routes, and hopefully, run my own company.
If you ultimately want to run your own company, make sure you mix in a few courses in accounting, finance and law.
Managers can come from all backgrounds. Lee Iacocca, one of Ford's most effective managers and who later ran Chrysler, studied engineering before he switched, while at Ford, to sales. Jack Welch started out as a plastics manufacturing process specialist at GE and then started climbing the ranks. John Reed, recently retired CEO from Citicorp, started as an engineer, and so was his chief of credit card operations.
On the other hand, an accountant can also rise to run a company or an agency. Faye Moore (SEPTA's chief) came from a finance background.
You get the picture?
If "NIMBYkiller" likes engineering/math/science, that's where he should start. It will give him analytical skills which are quite transferable. He can also take business courses, take part-time jobs in retail/customer service to gain experience. I did that while studying computer programming and before going to medical school, and learned a lot doing it.
Here a joke I heard from the contractor I use to work with when I use to build $1,000,000 custom homes about architects.
"An architect can design an ass hole, but they can’t make it $h%t."
John
Basically, you need to be well rounded. Get some business mgmt, accounting in tehre somewhere. It would be nice if you could get some hospitality classes in there as a minor, then I would say you'd be perfect. Especially with theme park mgmt(laugh now but i'll get the point at the end). IMO, hospitality/tourism is just service industry. If Richard Branson wanted someone to run his system, i'd say a hotel or airlines guy could do the job. It's all the same, different terminology. One you have what's your break-even occupancy, the other it's called load factor(airlines and trains).
The example from Ron was all working their way up in some tangible industry. That's fine, though I believe tangibles are easier than intangibles(the results different everytime). But the message is, well roundedness. Just because you know how to convert volts to amps and whatnot doens't mean you know how to keep people happy and moving.
I never took the airlines management classes, I was never interested in flying. But Just from schooling alone, i know basic engineering stuff, volts, lighting life safety, etc. how to read blueprints. Pitfalls, etc. Queneing theories, which directions people are more inclined to walk and which way people naturally turn, how to keep the foottraffic moving and where YOU want them to go(from theme park). Very important if you have people waiting. Most bus stops and even train stops will fail in the business world. business, accounting, etc. And of course gen ed. Heck, I even know basic law(as pertaining to the industry too). Wow that one comes in handy.
Basically, being in the real world now, i'm glad i did this and not really general business, I think i can handle anything now.
what I'm saying is, hopefully you'll get this in your core classes. Running something takes a little more than figuring out how much AC or dranage you need(osmething every designer outside florida fails at in florida).
Plus, i'm gonna add in there, with transit, you'll probably be on the same level as a university president. This guys whole job basically is to kiss the government and alumni's ass for money. :)
Of course on the flipside, if you just design a new line or even a station, that's super awesome. You'll work will be around longer than you will!
And if I were you, I would put down active participation on this board as a resume item.
I've personally had experience with both their Civil Engineering & Geography programs (Both my degrees are in Geography, though I started as a CivE major).
Below is a link overviewing related courses (at the senior/grad-level) from the Transportation Engineering website:
http://www.civil.umd.edu/programs/transportation/index.html#ITM-153
Another thing that may be of benefit is ShuttleUM. You could get some practical experience in how a transit agency runs during the school year (I believe NewLookTerrapin, who's primarily on BusTalk, could provide a more detailed explanation)
Great school.
I had the privilege of wrking with one of the deans to set up an internet training program for CDC personnel.
I thought it would be transportation planning that would be the best major for me(based on looking at the courses involved with it), but I think I might take a course in either civil engineering or city planning.
Oh, BTW, Congrats!
ANd Nimby, don't take you're final decision based on if someone else liked something or a certain teacher. If there's one thing I learned real quick, it's that if someone hates a certain teacher or fails a class, I end up loving that class and getting an A. And vice versa happened to me a bunch of times. I learned to not weigh other people opinions in my case that heavy. It takes practice and trail and error, but you'll win out in the end when you get it figured out. :)
Mark
--Acela
www.nyctba.com
1) Other than the G to coney what other oddball routings are taking place this weekend
2) What are some safe neighborhoods to explore outside on Manhattan?
3) How long would a round trip to the Rockaways take if I visit both branches?
4) If I take pictures what I the odds that I will get ticketed?
5) What some good photo spots both in the system and out of the system?
6) Do Mets games usually sell out? I would like to go to the game Friday night to finally see how fenway compares to another big league stadium and would prefer not to pay service charges for an advanced purchase.
7) What is the Quickest way to get from PATH WTC Shea stadium?
8) What is the bet route to get from Shea stadium to PATH WTC (this will be between 10 and midnight?
Thanks for any advice and if anyone is planing on railfanning this Friday I would love to meet up with you.
Check http://www.mta.info and click on Service Advisories to learn of all the planned service changes for the weekend.
2) What are some safe neighborhoods to explore outside on Manhattan?
A better question is, "What neighborhoods are unsafe to explore out of Manhattan?" There are more safe neighborhoods than unsafe ones. But during the day, you shouldn't have a problem anywhere.
4) If I take pictures what I the odds that I will get ticketed?
Probably depends on where you're taking pictures. But currently, it is LEGAL to take pictures and movies, so don't let the police bully you around. There is, however, a ban on photography in the PATH system.
5) What some good photo spots both in the system and out of the system?
-Queensboro Plaza on the (N)(W) and (7)
6) Do Mets games usually sell out? I would like to go to the game Friday night to finally see how fenway compares to another big league stadium and would prefer not to pay service charges for an advanced purchase.
Mets games never sell out (except on opening day, and during Subway Series). When you get to Shea, you can just walk up to the ticket window and get yourself a nice seat. I've never had a problem getting good seats on the day of the game.
7) What is the Quickest way to get from PATH WTC Shea stadium?
From the WTC, walk over to the (E) World Trade Center station. Once downstairs, follow the signs to get to the (2) and (3) Park Place station (the two stations are connected underground). Take the uptown (2) or (3) to Times Square - 42 Street. Once there, transfer to the <7>, which is the express 7 to Queens in the afternoons and evenings. You can take that to the Willets Point - Shea Stadium stop.
OR:
Since you'll already be at the first stop of the (E) train, get on that, and take it to Roosevelt Avenue - Jackson Heights in Queens. Once there, go upstairs and transfer to a Flushing-bound (7) train. You'll be at Shea before you know it.
8) What is the bet route to get from Shea stadium to PATH WTC (this will be between 10 and midnight?
Take a Manhattan-bound (7) to 74 Street - Broadway, and transfer to a Manhattan-bound (E). Take the (E) to the last stop, and you'll be back at the WTC.
The thing is if would be a lot cheaper for me to pay the ticket if I got one than come down from Boston again to appeal.
Then on Saturday, come to the NY Transit Museum in Brooklyn. Stan Fischler is giving a talk at 12:30 (link here).
I'll be at both events... and maybe chasing the BU cars on Saturday.
7. Take the E to NYP, and then take the LIRR Port Washington line to Shea Stadium. If it's a game day, then I'm almost certain that every PW train stops at Shea, but to be safe, just double check the boards when you get to NYP. You'll see the big board over the ticket/info booths. Look for Shea Stadium and it should list the time of the next train stopping there, and as it gets closer to that time, it will list the track, well, it should.
8. Just do #7 in reverse. LIRR westbound to NYP(make sure it's westbound, both directions stop on the same platform, the westbound train will almost definately be on the side facing away from the yard and other platforms), E to WTC.
Also, if the terminal is near, you may also be able to take a ferry to Jersey City, but PATH is definately cheaper, and probably will be faster.
ROFLMAO
WTC 2 Shea via Path to WTC > (1) North to Times Sqare thence (7) east to Shea.
The Reverse wroks 27/7
PATH to 33 works just as good too, (1), (2), or (3) will take you to 42nd for the (7).
I always bought Yankee tickets in advance at Ticketron, and was unaware of any surcharge, but that was back in the early 80xs.
Elias
2) Alot of safe neighborhoods outside of Manhattan. Say where you'd like to go and we can say which are better than others.
3) Say about 2 hours to visit both sides of the Rockaways.
4) Just be a little discreet about taking pictures. No tripod and no flash and nothing should happen. Besides the cops, be careful of other people that might take your camera.
5) Answer to that question would probably require a whole posting. Too many places to just briefly mention.
6) I don't think Met games generally sell out. But don't expect an empty house either.
7)& 8) From PATH/WTC take the E train to Roosevelt Ave and change for the 7 to Willet's Point. Coming back after the game is the same way. 7 trains should be somewhat crowded getting to 74 Street. E service should be ok getting back to PATH/WTC. You may want to consider taking the F train from Roosevelt to 34/6 for the PATH back to NJ. Just a gut feeling there will be more people at 34/6 than at WTC/Chambers St.
To get to that 33rd St. station, as stated, take the F at Roosevelt Avenue to 34 St. or the D or F at 5th Avenue to 34 St. from the 7 Train (or the N/R/Q from Times Square to 34th), if you want to stay outdoors on the 7 Line all the way into Manhattan.
I've heard the area around the 7 train interesting would you recommend these? If so what areas would be particularly interesting?
As for the area around the 7, I never got off any stops becides the tunnel stops, QueensBoro Plaza (which you might not want to visit-the area, not the station), Willets Point which has nothing to see except for the Stadium, and Main St which is like a Mini-China Town.
(Hey look ma, lets just stare up at the concrete elevated structure and forget about the real tourist sites). :P
2: It's one solid chunk over metered parking areas.
3: It's the only one like it in NYC. Paris is too far away to visit on the same day.
But, unless you're on a bus riding past it, it's not really worth getting off and running downstairs to see. (Plug for the Q32 from Madison Avenue over the 59th St. Bridge into Queens.)
--------
For another interesting area, I'd say get Spanish CDs and DVDS and an enchilada at the 74-B'way station.
Also, Main St. is not merely a mini-Chinatown. It is a major Chinese and Korean shopping and residential district for Chinese and Koreans. The huge supermarkets and department stores make it extra interesting. And really good Chinese restaurants. Only E. Broadway on the F is as interesting and non-touristy.
#6 train to Pelham Bay Park, bus connection to City Island for great seafood.
LIRR to Bayside or Douglaston. Check out the golf course on Northern Blvd, the Riedel Wildflower Meadow, and the Alley Pond Environmental Center. Bring your bike on the train; you can ride your bike from Bayside on a dedicated bikeway along Flushing Bay westbound.
E, F trains to Forest Hills to check out a movie or eat Israeli/Middle Eastern Food or Corona Park/Flushing Meadows.
#7 train or LIRR PW line to the stadiums and to great Indian/Chinese/Vietnamese food in downtown Flushing.
2. Anyplace, except the L line stations at Atlantic Ave. Sutter, Livonia, New Lots, 3 line east of Utica Ave, 6 line from 138th st 149th st.
3. About 2.5 hours, go to Far Rockaway branch first, come back to Broad Channel for the second. For an interesting way back, get out at Rockaway Park, turn right and walk to the bus stop across from the diner on the left corner (The Duane Reade is next to the diner, across Newport Ave). Take the Q35 bus to Flatbush/Nostrand Aves and change for the 2 train there.
4. You run at your own risk. Remember photography IS legal as long as you stay in public areas, do not use flash or obstruct traffic. Comply with what a police officer or MTA employee says, even if you don't like what they are saying.
5. Some of the best photo spots are actually outside the system. Go to Park Ave and East 97th st and you will see plenty of Metro North trains in and out of the Park Ave portal. Hunterspoint Ave at street level is also great for #7 trains, DO NOT ENTER THE LIRR STATION AFTER IT CLOSES AT 6:30 PM ON FRIDAY.
Another good photospot: The Riedel Wildflower Meadow off Northern Blvd. east of 223 St. You can see the LIRR trains cross the grassland heading for Douglaston or coming back from Douglaston. Try it in the morning or late afternoon and see what kinds of effects the sun can give you. Just stay in the meadow portion close to Northern Blvd (don't approach the track area).
I sent in for the trip on the 17th a while age haven't gotten my ticket yet though.
Thanks for the advice
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/27269.htm
Bravo! Push the body off to the side with the yellow wooden board and keep the trains rolling by!
Pelham 1:23 been teaching me differently....
Altho, the same can apparently occur from fluid contacting the rail.
Of course - this being Subtalk we can speculate for ever so let me suggest that when Walter Mathau suprised Robert Shaw in the tunnel it scared Shaw so much, he pee's himself. The stream of urine ran down both legs making both shoes conductive. Hmmmmmm - that'll work.
another reason monies wasted on S/A should be redirected to more useful purposes
So what is the difference between security personnel and Station Agents? The former is nowhere to be found while the S/A will instantly call for help. What good are employees watching video terminals?
No, he didn't have a camera on him, so no one considered this "suspicious"
Good one, Unca Bill. Maybe the northbound ran over Gephardt. :)
The TTC annouced that disciplinary action was taken against 4 workers involved in the accident.
Passengers in Toronto will be relieved to know that
the TTC has "decided that, from now on, when there's a work train that is going to be routed into the yard, it will not be routed into the yard when trains are going out"
It is unclear if there will be any change in procedure when a work train is being routed out of the yard when trains are being routed in. Come to think of it, there are two other cases of work and passenger train movements that are also unchanged.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1089670219936&call_pageid=968350130169&col=969483202845&tacodalogin=no"
-Robert King
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/transportation/nyc-sub0713,0,6510393,print.story?coll=nyc-manheadlines-trans
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/queens/nyc-sub0714,0,5159178,print.story?coll=nyc-manheadlines-queens
I'm intrigued that the problems have been happening in Queens along Queens Boulevard between Queensboro Plaza and Queens Plaza stations. It is no coincidence that "Queens" appears several times. I am very close to discovering how this fact is creating problems in the signal system.
It's more like: the old tower was local control, simple, mechanical,
reliable but maintenance intensive
The new tower is remote and relies on complicated electronics to
transmit its commands into the field. There are local "maintainers'
panels" in the field which can be used directly to give lineups
if communication with the master tower is lost, which _should_ be
a rare thing. However, for whatever reason, the maintainers' panels
on the Queens Blvd job are very rudimentary. They have no track
indications which makes it very difficult to actually use them
to run service.
I assumed he went to the end of the platform and then walked along the catwalk away from the station, seeking some privacy.
The first article I saw in the Post detailed his movements.
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/27269.htm
These are my favorites:
-Chris
Story Here
Interesting fellow. Was already out on bond.
Oh Well, somebody's gotta be dumb.
Elias
Story Here
Interesting fellow. Was already out on bond.
Oh Well, somebody's gotta be dumb.
Elias
Chao-Hwa
wayne
Chao-Hwa
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album141
yippee all the slants will move to jamacia soon
til next time
til next time
3420-3645-3530-3741-3418-3863-3831-3382-3617-3776
Tickets WILL be available on the day of the excursions, so you don't have to worry if you didn't get a chance to mail for tickets yet (as I am one of those lazy people. lol).
Dave, please update the information in your Upcoming Events calendar. Thank you.
Can I bring my LION with me ???
David: As always you're the go-to guys for the right information.
Thanks for the post.
Larry, RedbirdR33
That means some of you will get them today, others may get them soon.
See ya on the trips!
-Chris
I was planning to attend the trip on the 25th, and was going to mail out my check today. Should I still do that, or should I just wait and pay on board?
I've done some of these trips before, but I've always paid on board...
Thanks for the help!
The difference is you save yourself 74 cents in postage if you performed the latter.
The 7/17, and 7/18 trips will generate hype for people to attend the 7/24 7/25 trips, thus making those tickets more popular. They stand a higher chance of selling out by the trip date.
and JUST as high a chance someone will make this very same WHERE ARE MY TICKETS post days prior to said event... 0:)
If so, then no, they ran thru to Ditmars. They were usually half empty in, while they bypassed crowded local stations full of irate looking passangers waiting for an N local.
-Broadway Buffer
This subway would have many benefits and features such as:
*Alleviating crowding on the Lex line.
*Offering tourists a convenient way to visit many popular areas, as well as JFK, all on one line.
*Breath new life into the Nassau Street line.
*Utilize existing entrances, so eminent domain will be less necessary.
*New stations on Central Park would be constructed like the City Hall station of the R & W lines; with an island platform, with platform level fare control, centered on the park side of Fifth Avenue.
The Manhattan stations will be:
*125th & Lex
*116th & 5th
*106th & 5th Museum of the City of New York - El Museo del Barrio
*96th & 5th Museum Mile
*86th & 5th Metropolitan Museum of Art - Guggenheim Museum
*72nd & 5th Frick Collection
*59th & 5th Grand Army Plaza (using the entrances for the BMT station)
*50th & 5th Rockefeller Center (new entrances, and connection to 53rd St. station)
*42nd & 5th New York Public Library - Bryant Park (using existing subway entrances of 7 train)
*34th & 5th Empire State Building (new entrances)
*23rd & 5th Madison Square (using existing entrances of BMT station)
*14th & 5th New School University (New Entrances)
*Washington Square Park - Greenwich Village - NYU (new entrances)
*Broadway - SoHo (using existing entrances of BMT station)
*Canal Street - Chinatown (using express tracks of Nassau line)
*City Hall (using express tracks of Nassau line)
*Fulton Street (new lower level platform, using existing entrances)
*Broad Street - Wall Street (new lower level platform, using existing entrances)
It would also be nice to see an above ground "NYC100" tourist bus that follows that route, using some old wing fishbowls gatherd from wherever they can be salvaged.
I have a Fifth Avenue Subway.
The LOCAL train runs non-stop from 60th Street to 116th Street, and then making all stations to 161st Street (Grand Concourse)
The EXPRESS train runs non-stop 60th Street to Bedford Bark Blvd, thence to CoOp City.
The NIMBYs along 5th Avenue do not want to be bothered with a subway line or the kinds of people that kind of thing would bring in, so the heck with them. It's deep and they will NEVER know that it is there.
My new lions do not connect with ANY existing subway. The cars are not compatible, nor to they even want to run on such a slow lion!
Trains from CoOp City make connections with the (5), (2), (4), (D) and (C) trains, then run non stop to 60th Street.
They make 42nd, 34th, Chambers, WTC, Wall, and then off to Brooklyn
making Brooklyn Center, and Jamaica before diverging to about four destinations out to the County Lion.
Liner Induction Motors, 100% Computer Control, 75 mph speeds.
Elias
Bonds are the proper method. An infrastructure such as this ought to be paid out over the life of the project. In fiduciary terms this would be about 50 years. Of course, unlike the BMT or the IRT the retirement of the bonds cannot be expected to be bourne by the farebox, so an annual levy on the taxpayers is appropriate. There will be land speculation along the route of the new lions, and certainly those investors need to be levied.
But then who pays for all of the roads that they are building? And the city streets? and the Water Mains?
Life, especially life in a city, it a communal effort of all of the people.
Why should a Farmer in North Dakota pay for your subway? Oh... wait a minute, isn't that where our financial support comes from to grow crops.
It is one country, better interstates in North Dakota help out the whole country, better subways in New York help air quality and save on peterolium resources.
It is one community people, from coast to coast. Can the extremes, right and left, and lets build the middle.
Elias
There *is* an aquaduct under parts of 5th Avenue, but do you have any idea how deep that thing is?
If I were to promote building a Fifth Avenue Subway ridding just on top of the bed rock (say 4-5 stories under ground) we would still clear that thing by a good 300' or more. Details.
Elias
The subway could always be constructed by tunneling, rather than cut and cover.
The bottom line will be political power. Today, this couldn't happen. If the SAS opens, and the Lex again becomes so crowded that the financial performance of the Midtown real estate industry is impaired, this could happen.
This is what I envision politically. The SAS will open, and crowding on the Lex will be reduced. By 2030, the SAS will be connected to the Bronx and to Brooklyn. Also, a line from Queens Blvd will connect to it via the 63rd street tunnel. Real estate in Manhattan will continue to develop, and the Lex will again get very crowded. If the SAS itself is very crowded, it will be converted to a 4 track subway. Anyway, a Fifth Avenue subway, after the SAS, is the most logical way to reduce crowding on the Lex. So, in the future, you will pit the residents of Fifth Avenue against the real estate industry. I vote with the real estate industry.
Someone once wrote that what oil is to Texas, real estate is to New York. Aside from Westway, the real estate industry almost always gets there way. And what about Westway? It happened in an era that followed awareness of the excesses of Robert Moses, and a mistrust of government courtesy of Watergate. We don't live in that era anymore. New York is once again getting bold with publics works projects.
I say that a Fifth Avenue subway gets built in 30-40 years, and I can't wait to ride it.
If a Fifth Avenue subway ever became something that was on the agen da of the MTA, I believe that entrances on the Park would face less opposition than entrances next to, or in, the Co-ops on Fifth.
Stu
Michael
Michael
Washington, DC
A poster in the Houston Street 1/9 station, uptown side, by the MVM's.
Anyway, I'll let you know the results.
Michael
Washington, DC
www.nps.gov/gois
Click on plan your visit. It lists tour and ferry times. It's a very limited schedule. Only two trips Tuesday-Thursday. The tour is free. The ferry is a nominal charge.
Michael
Washington, DC
By the way, note that while the tours are free you have to pay for the ferry to get there.
Someone has posted a number of photos on Wired New York: http://forums.wirednewyork.com/viewtopic.php?t=3172
www.govisland.org
They just let go 30% of thier musueme staff.
At one time there was a small railroad with a steam engine on the island designed for hauling some freight from the ferry terminal to wherever it went on the island.
I didn't bookmark the site, so I'm sorry I can't be more specific.
Eric reported that a particular R-40, which was the survivor of an accident that destroyed its mate several years ago and has been under repair for several years, is almost repaired. However, it reportedly will not go into service; instead, if the report is right, it will be sent to Randall's Island, where the Fire Department has a training facility. He noted that the lighting diffuser covers in the low ceiling area of this car are flat and (transparent) instead of grooved as on other R-40s, enabling one to see the fluorescent tubes.
Eric then went on to complain that the R-40 fleet seems to be deteriorating, citing door problems and several recent Brakes in Emergency (BIE) incidents, some of which involved trains he was operating.
David
New York Transit Museum - Nostalgia Train - The Train Before The Subway
Before there was a subway, New York City was served by elevated
trains. The Transit Museum's collection includes three beautifully
restored Brooklyn Union wooden elevated trains. To commemorate the
subways centennial we are bringing out these cars which have not been
on an official run since 1980. This special Transit Museum benefit
excursion will combine a ride on vintage R-9 cars from Columbus Circle
in Manhattan to the Transit Museum. From the Museum, passengers will
ride the R-9s to an elevated line where they will transfer to the BU's
(Brooklyn elevated trains) for a truly nostalgic ride to the
shore. Reservations and advance payment required. Capacity is limited
so book early. 718 694-1867. Adults $50, Children $20
Saturday and Sunday, September 18 and 19, 2004 AT 10 a.m.
New York Transit Museum - The Cavalcade Of Stars! Pageant In Motion
To thank our loyal Museum members on October 23 and 24 the Transit
Museum will be hosting this special "members only" event. Up to six
different vintage trains will run on the Brighton Line between the
Brighton Beach and Kings Highway stations. Only Museum members and new
members, will be allowed to ride the trains. Non-members and the
general public may view the pageant of vintage trains from stations
along the line, overpasses and the street. Valid current membership
and reservations required. Ride is free commensurate with level of
membership. To become a member call: 718 694-3451.
Where: Contact Museum
When: Saturday and Sunday, October 23 and 24, 2004 From 10 A.M. To 4 P.M.
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
New York Transit Museum - Catch Me If You Can! Vintage Train Rides
To thank the riding public, on Thursday and Friday, October 28 and 29,
between rush hours, we will be running vintage cars throughout the
system. Trains will operate in regular passenger service on different
lines. With a little bit of luck, and perfect timing, you'll be able
to get to your destination on a vintage subway car for the regular
price of a ride!
Where: ???
When: Thursday And Friday, October 28 And 29, 2004
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
New York Transit Museum - Exhibit - Centennial Celebration
An exhibition commemorating the 1904 opening of the IRT and key
moments in the subway's 100 year history. On view are unique and
exceptional artifacts and archival treasures from the subway
system. Highlights include sections of recently renovated vault lights
from City Hall, the flagship station of the IRT, and the silver-bladed
ceremonial shovel used to break ground for the subway in 1900. Works
in the exhibition are drawn from the collections of the New York
Transit Museum, the Museum of the City of New York, the New-York
Historical Society, and private collections. Centennial Celebration is
sponsored by Vollmer Associates, LLP, and Parsons Brinckerhoff.
When: September 14, 2004 - Spring 2005
Where: New York Transit Museum, Brooklyn Heights
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
American Museum of the Moving Image - Subway Centennial Film Festival
To celebrate the subway's centennial the American Museum of the Moving
Image, in partnership with MTA New York City Transit and the Transit
Museum, will screen a series of movies starring the subway. Other
shorts, documentaries, avant-garde shorts, and even a Seinfeld episode
will be shown. For additional information including film synopses,
credits, and running times please visit the Subway Centennial website
at www.mta.info (click on the centennial banner), call the American
Museum of the Moving Image at 718-784-0077, or visit its website: href="http://www.movingimage.us/">www.movingimage.us.
When: October 2 - 11, 2004
Where: American Museum of the Moving Image, 35th Avenue at 36th
Street, Astoria, Queens
New York Transit Museum - Exhibit - Subway Style: 100 Years of Architecture & Design in the New York City Subway
After a successful spring run at the UBS Art Gallery, Subway Style:
100 Years of Architecture & Design in the New York City Subway reopens
in Grand Central Terminal's Vanderbilt Hall to coincide with the
subway's October 1904 inauguration. The exhibition traces the design
of the system over the past century by examining architecture,
ceramics, metal and lighting, signage and graphics, furnishings,
cartography, fare collection, advertising, and rolling stock.
The exhibition draws upon objects and images in the New York Transit
Museum's extensive collections of artifact and archival materials as
well as on a series of new photographs of historic station ornament
and design features.
When: October 12 - November 8, 2004
Where: Grand Central Terminal - Vanderbilt Hall, Manhattan
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
New York Transit Museum - Exhibit - Grand Central Holiday Train Show
In celebration of the 100th anniversary of New York's first subway,
this year's annual Holiday Train Show promises to be a grand event!
The show features a toy train layout with MTA New York City Transit
trains operating on several levels, including an underground
subway. Created by M.T.H. Electric Trains, the layout represents New
York's unique cityscape, including such famous monuments as Grand
Central Terminal and the Empire State Building. The festive exhibit
will also feature a large display of New York City subway train models
from the Transit Museum's collection.
When: November 22, 2004 - January 9, 2005
Where: New York Transit Museum Gallery Annex, Grand Central Terminal
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
New York Transit Museum - Tour - Railroad to the Sea
September 10 marks the 72nd anniversary of the 1932 inauguration of A
train service. To celebrate this milestone in the subway's history the
Transit Museum is offering two special tours highlighting the A line.
The Rockaway Peninsula is one of the longest ocean front areas of any
municipality. The subway that serves it was built by predecessors of
the Long Island Rail Road, with A line subway service beginning in
1956. Along the way it features the longest run between stations (over
four miles), the world's busiest airport, a famous racetrack, a
national park, a bird sanctuary, and the world's longest hotel (more
than six blocks long) that never opened to the public! Explore the A
line with subway historian Joe Cunningham. Reservations and Advance
Payment Required: $20, Museum Members $15.
Where: Contact Museum
When: Sunday, September 12, 2004 at noon
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
New York Transit Museum - Tour - Take the A Train Uptown
Subway historian Joe Cunningham will lead a tour of the line made
famous by Duke Ellington's classic. Starting from midtown and riding
north, see unique subway construction due to the geology of northern
Manhattan, including one station excavated 180 feet in deep rock and
accessed only by elevators from the street above. So well shielded is
it from solar and cosmic radiation that it was the site of scientific
experiments by Nobel Prize laureate physicist Dr. Victor Hess. At
other locations, we'll see a unique suspended walkway reminiscent of
1930s science fiction serials and multi-level construction that
simplifies passenger access and convenience. Reservations and Advance
Payment Required: $20, Museum Members $15.
Where: Contact Museum
When: Sunday, September 26, 2004 at Noon
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
New York Transit Museum - Tour - New York City's First Subway Route
New York City's landscape changed dramatically when the first subway
opened 100 years ago. It spurred a building boom, impacted land
values, and influenced the siting of businesses and schools. Urban
geographer Jack Eichenbaum, Ph.D., will lead a special centennial tour
of six stations on the original subway line (6 S 1/9). On foot and by
train, explore City Hall Park, Astor Place, Madison Square, 42nd
Street (Grand Central and Times Square), Morningside
Heights/Manhattanville, and Hamilton Heights/City College.
Reservations and Advance Payment Required: $25, Museum Members $20.
Where: Contact Museum
When: Saturday, October 2, 2004 at 10 a.m. - 5:30 p.m.
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
New York Transit Museum - Tour - Centre Street Loop
The area around the Manhattan landing of the Brooklyn Bridge was a
center of business and commerce long before the construction of the
bridge. Spurs of East Side lines accessed the area by 1880 and the
first cable cars crossed the bridge soon after it opened. By the time
the IRT subway opened in 1904, the bridge terminal was a beehive of
activity, the Manhattan terminus for trains from Coney Island,
Brighton Beach, and the Queens border of eastern Brooklyn. It was
decided that all of the lower Manhattan bridges should be connected by
a subway loop line to serve the area. The lines were built to include
the Wall Street financial district and the civic center, but a variety
of economic and demographic changes intervened. In this tour subway
historian Joe Cunningham will review what was planned, what was
achieved, and the anticipated future of this congested and vital area.
Reservations AND ADVANCE PAYMENT Required: $20, MUSEUM MEMBERS $15.
Where: Contact Museum
When: Friday, October 29, 2004 at 6 P.M.
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
New York Transit Museum - Tour - Subway Unification Tour
The joining of the three competing New York City subway lines - the
IRT, BMT, and IND - was a milestone in New York City's public
transportation history. Andy Sparberg, Long Island Rail Road Manager
of Quality Assurance and a subway expert, will lead you through subway
facilities that illustrate the design of each of the three
lines. Starting at Times Square - a local station on the original IRT
line - the tour will take you to BMT and IND stations as well as some
operating facilities. Step behind the scenes in this eye-opening
excursion. Reservations AND ADVANCE PAYMENT Required: $20, MUSEUM
MEMBERS $15.
Where: Contact Museum
When: Sunday, December 5, 2004 at noon
This event operated by: New York Transit Museum
Information: 718-694-1600
Membership: 718-694-3451
If the TM wants new members, they sure have won me over big time.
til next time
What are you waiting for?
(words cannot suffice my -AMAZEMENT- at said fact)
1. IND "R's" 100-484-401-1575
2. IRT SMEE's 5760-6239-6609-9306
3. Brooklyn Union 1404, 1273, 1407
4. D-Types 6019, 6095, 6112
5. Low-V's 5290, 5292, 5443, 5483 (4902?)
6. ?
As for #6: The BMT Standards? An IND/BMT "SMEE" train (R10, R11, R16...)? Redbirds?
I'd think Redbirds would be the most likely and most "available" train but they could surprise us!
--Mark
The R110A's are fine!
It will be interesting to see if "the ban" is in effect during these programs.
--Mark
\\Julian
* ryan
til next time
-Chris
Just a Though
If the R-110 weren't five car trainsets it could be used on the TS/GCT Shuttle, but I'd say just assign it somewhere that had similar equipment like Pelham.
My guess is that the TA has deemed this sort of thing too costly. It does seem like a waste, but I won't pass any judgement since I don't know the story.
Wayne
Dyre shuttle from Dyre to 180th
Posted on:7/13/04 2:46:49 PM
Due to someone requiring medical assistance at Carnasie-Rockaway Parkway, the (L) line is suspended from Carnasie-Rockaway Parkway to Broadway Junction in both directions.
Wow, what a surprise:
----
Rail foes led by roadway builders
The lobby for road builders is a big contributor to the bullet train repeal campaign.
By Associated Press
Published July 13, 2004
ORLANDO - A road builders' lobbying organization gave $330,000 of the $1.3-million collected for a petition drive aimed at derailing Florida's bullet train project, according to a campaign finance report filed Monday.
Moving Florida, a political action committee established by the Florida Transportation Builders Association, was the largest contributor to DErail the Bullet Train (DEBT) during the year's second quarter.
"We're the same people that would probably build the bullet train if it were built," FTBA president Bob Burleson said. "Believe it or not, sometimes we try to think of the greater good. If there were a way to pay for high speed rail, we'd be all for it. I just don't think, currently, we can afford to build it; I think we have much more pressing needs."'
Two major Central Florida theme parks, bypassed on a planned route that does connect with Walt Disney World, were also major contributors to the kill-the-rail project.
The first leg of the proposed rail network, from Orlando to Tampa, is estimated to cost $2.6-billion, although opponents believe the true price is $6.4-billion.
DEBT spent $1.1-million during the quarter, almost all on its petition drive that would have voters decide whether to repeal the constitutional amendment requiring the state to build the rail line. Floridians approved the amendment four years ago.
The petition needs close to 489,000 valid signatures for the repeal to reach the Nov. 2 ballot. DEBT officials said they have collected more than 600,000 signatures.[i think this is a typo, it says 60k everywhere else]
"Grass-roots support for the bullet train's repeal has been tremendous," Slater Bayliss, DEBT's executive director, said in a statement. "Voters throughout the state are supporting our grass-roots campaign because they want the opportunity to repeal the bullet train boondoggle and cancel this wasteful mandate."[she doesn't mention how petitioners in front of supermarkets tell you, "if you want a bullet train sign here", telling you you need to sign the petition if you WANT the train, and not if you don't want it!!]
The Villages, a massive retirement community in Central Florida, gave $300,000. Developer Gary Morse is a major fundraiser for the GOP, and Republican Gov. Jeb Bush has ardently opposed bullet trains.
The SeaWorld Orlando theme park, upset it wouldn't benefit from a station nearby, gave $250,000. When the route was selected, SeaWorld and Universal Orlando lost out to rival Disney for a stop. The Florida High Speed Rail Authority was swayed by studies showing Disney could offer more riders than the attractions in the International Drive tourist district.
Universal contributed more than $220,000 to DEBT in March.
Contributing a total of $100,000 were three railroad companies: CSX Transportation ($50,000), Florida East Coast Industries ($25,000) and Rail Management Corp. ($25,000).[Do these companies get money for Amtrak using their tracks?]
Also Monday, a Tallahassee judge held a hearing in a lawsuit against the petition drive.
The lawsuit was filed by C.C. "Doc" Dockery, the Lakeland businessman who got the train on the ballot in 2000, and alleges that the signatures aren't invalid because they don't have the names and addresses of the people paid to collect them.
Circuit Judge P. Kevin Davey refused earlier this month to issue a preliminary injunction sought by Dockery, saying he could find no provision in state law that requires such signatures be thrown out.
After listening to attorneys Monday, Davey refused to dismiss the lawsuit, giving Dockery's lawyers the go-ahead to seek documents from the campaign in an effort to prove their allegations.
© Copyright 2003 St. Petersburg Times. All rights reserved
----
The Villages, BTW is an old peoples CITY, not retirement home, but CITY. Driving on 441 on the beautiful countryside and rural no cars around area's you come up to a freaking CITY with traffic lights and the works. I should sue him for ruining another one of the my drive roads and what makes it easy to get around. I hate these roadblocks.
My favorite quote:
"In a written statement, company officials said Monday that high-speed rail would be a costly burden on Florida taxpayers, and the money would be better spent on other options, such as adding more lanes to Interstate 4."
Well that 1.4 billion now, plus however much it costed in 96 for that project sure isn't working! And how many lanes will it take to add 3million more residents on that road???
Anti-train campaign gathers steam
Opponents using $1.4 million to kill rail project
By Mark Schlueb
Sentinel Staff Writer
July 13, 2004
Opponents of Florida's controversial bullet train have lined up more than $1.4 million in their push to kill the project, including big contributions from road-building interests, SeaWorld and friends of Gov. Jeb Bush.
Reports submitted Monday by the "Derail the Bullet Train" committee show the group has spent most of its money hiring consultants to gather petition signatures aimed at repealing the high-speed rail constitutional amendment passed by voters four years ago. The anti-train effort has until Aug. 3 to gather 488,722 certified signatures, enough to earn a spot on the November ballot.
"We anticipated that they were going to raise quite a bit of money, particularly from interests who felt they had something to gain from stopping the project," said Keith Lee Rupp, president of the pro-train Florida Transportation Association.
Among the top givers: Anheuser-Busch, whose SeaWorld Orlando theme park was snubbed last year when state officials picked a train route that bypassed it and the International Drive tourist strip and went straight to Walt Disney World. The St. Louis company wrote a $250,000 check.
A political action committee of road- and bridge-building companies made seven contributions totaling $330,000 over the past nine weeks, reports show. Bob Burleson, head of the Florida Transportation Builders' Association and its political committee, said the bullet train would siphon away money that would otherwise be spent to build and upgrade roads.
"You've got to make choices where you spend the money," Burleson said. "If we take the money for high-speed rail, you'd take money away from congestion-relief projects."
The Villages retirement community gave $300,000 to the effort. The real estate company is headed by Gary Morse, a frequent contributor to Republican candidates, including Bush. Company administrators did not return a call seeking comment.
Three railroad companies -- CSX Transportation, Florida East Coast Industries and Rail Management Corp. -- contributed a combined $100,000.
"Grass-roots support for the bullet train's repeal has been tremendous," Slater Bayliss, executive director of the opposition group, said in a statement.
"Voters throughout the state are supporting our grass-roots campaign because they want the opportunity to repeal the bullet-train boondoggle and cancel this wasteful mandate."
Anheuser-Busch's contribution comes not long after Universal Orlando kicked off the petition drive with a $220,000 contribution.
Like the owners of SeaWorld Orlando and several International Drive businesses, Universal Orlando officials are steamed on behalf of Universal Studios and Islands of Adventure that a nearby route along the Bee Line Expressway was passed over in favor of one closer to Disney.
Disney threatened to not support the project if the Bee Line route was chosen. With the loss of millions of potential riders hanging over them, members of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority last fall gave in and selected the route favored by Disney: along the Central Florida GreeneWay.
The bullet-train project has been controversial since its inception. Voters approved the petition-initiative in 2000, but it has never been funded by the Legislature.
The first leg of the project would run from Orlando International Airport to Tampa at an estimated cost of $2.4 billion.
Opponents, including Gov. Bush and state Chief Financial Officer Tom Gallagher, say it would be much more expensive than supporters contend.
Project backers say critics are exaggerating costs to scare taxpayers.
The debate has taken a different turn in Central Florida, where tourism interests have sparred over the route the train would take.
Though SeaWorld Orlando representatives lobbied for the train to come close to their theme park, the company has opposed the project since the Disney route was chosen.
In a written statement, company officials said Monday that high-speed rail would be a costly burden on Florida taxpayers, and the money would be better spent on other options, such as adding more lanes to Interstate 4.
Anheuser-Busch is a frequent contributor to both political parties, and occasionally to specific candidates. Federal campaign finance reports show the company hasn't given such a large contribution to a single cause in at least 10 years.
The anti-train group says it has gathered more than 600,000 signatures so far. As of Monday, about 237,500 had been verified by the state's elections offices, which typically lag behind.
C.C. "Doc" Dockery, a Lakeland millionaire who began the bullet-train effort, filed a lawsuit last month asking a judge to throw out tens of thousands of petition signatures.
The workers paid to gather signatures did not properly list their own names and addresses on each petition, which the suit contends is required by law.
There was a hearing in the case Monday, but a Tallahassee judge has not yet ruled.
Wire services were used in this report.
Mark Schlueb can be reached at mschlueb@orlandosentinel.com or 407-420-5417.
Which new lanes would, of course, become choked with traffic practically before the asphalt's dry.
And if tourism goes beyond 2001 levels finally, it's fuller.
Anymore snowbird retiree's? fuller
Polk county with billions in construction and new people, probalby add a couple million residents.
Tampa with at least half a million more people, watch them brakes lights....
Orlando's insatiable sprawl, with god knows hwo many more ppl thanks to Jeb's western beltway....Can I drive on the shoulder? Wait there's poepole there. Where's Augustus Busch's helicopter at!!
It doesn't take a genious and bs stats to convince me. I'm just scared to death I wont' be able to go back and forth between cities someday, which is coming.
More gas used = more $$$$ for the Bushes.
And for Hussein, the Saudis and eventually to bin Laden...
Well maybe not Hussein anymore, but the others still stand...
More gas used = more $$$$ for the Bushes.
More misinformed propaganda. Since oil supplies are generally at a fixed amount, increasing demand won't lead to increased prices. Please stop parroting anti-Bush propaganda without verifying it's truthfullness.
If you want to rip Republicans, use a real reason, like their cozy relationship with those who would directly benefit from increased spending on highway construction.
This one caught me off-guard. Why are freight railroads against passenger rail? This is INSANITY!
Don't they know that more rail is good for everyone??? Know we know why rail is in such bad condition.
I know freight lines don't like having to make time and space for Amtrak trains on their tracks, for one thing.
Mark
Mark<<<<
This high-speed bullet train will not run on freight lines.
Oter than that I can't see any effects. I'd love to know. Maybe CSX wants HSR too, haha. I thought of a suggestion of letting them use the tracks during non-operational hours, for a straight shot.
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/07/13/ttc_fraud040713.html?print
I'm not familiar with Toronto's fare system. Are the transit tickets like our MetroCard?
I use Google News.
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=us&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=subway&scoring=d
This link will find all mentions of "subway" or any other word you're interested in and you will get the most recent articles first. Unfortunately, if an article has gone out on one of the wire services, the search will return repeat articles from different papers. You can eliminate that by taking a key word in the title of the article and minusing it from subway, i.e. subway -olympics
Oh, yes, where was I? Anyone have a reason why the tickets might still be needed??
There are two kinds....green (or blue) which are full price...$2 each, and pink, which are $1.83 + 1/3 each.....and "6 pour 11,00$" (French for 6 for $11). THe pink ones come attached in a strip, and you tear one ticket off to use it. The back has a mag-stripe on it and some form of watermark.
WHen you want to get into the Metro, you tear off a ticket and stick it into a slot on the turnstyle....the turnstyle "sucks" the ticket in, and you can actually hear it being "chopped", and then you can enter.
The tickets are printed on cardboard and are about the size of a postage stamp. They've been increasingly the subject of counterfitting because of the recent availibility of high quality, low cost computer equipment and colour photocopiers. Counterfit tickets have been a problem for some time. Apparantly, there have also been problems, to a much lesser extent, with counterfit tokens.
-Robert King
From the Milwaukee Journal Sentinal
On transit, suburbs know best
By GREGORY STANFORD
gstanford@journalsentinel.com
Posted: July 10, 2004
Egads. Minneapolis has just joined the ranks of cities with - now, cover the ears of children - light rail.
Thank goodness, suburban leaders have kept Milwaukee off that track, which takes an unsuspecting city headlong over a cliff into heaven knows what.
Minneapolis lacked such sage counsel - or at least ignored it. So, alas, the debut of light rail marks the beginning of the end for that grand city.
OK, the first week's ridership did exceed expectations by 70%, Twin Cities transit officials report. Passengers boarded the eight-mile Hiawatha line a total of 93,000 times.
But just you wait and see. Light rail will drag Minneapolis into perdition.
State lawmakers from Milwaukee's suburbs know better. They once managed to block the use of federal funds just to study the feasibility of light rail here.
In Minneapolis, riders who talk with the media show blissful ignorance of the ruin the system is wreaking. The Minneapolis Star Tribune quotes one rider as merrily giving up her downtown parking spot. Another enthused that the rail line was faster than a bus and cheaper than a car.
A third customer raved: "I think it works great. The train was excellent. It's quick. It's less stressful (than driving)."
Milwaukee suburban leaders - among them County Executive Scott Walker - know, however, that Minneapolis' joy ride will sooner or later crash into harsh reality.
These leaders don't need studies to figure out that light rail won't work in Milwaukee. For one thing, the area lacks the population density to support such a system, they note.
According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the four-county metropolitan area here sports 1,028 people per square mile. That happens to be more than twice the density of the hapless Minneapolis-St. Paul area, which features just 490 people per square mile.
In fact, Beer Town is denser than two-thirds of the 24 American metropolitan areas that currently feature light rail, as listed by a Texas-based Web site called Light Rail Now (www.lightrailnow.org).
Doubtless those areas - Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Dallas, San Diego among them - are doomed, having invested heavily in light rail without the density to support it.
The most thinly populated metro area, by the way, is Denver, with 304 people per square mile. So expect that system to crash any day now. OK, it's true that Denver's Regional Transportation District is wrestling with the problem of too many light rail riders, not too few. But the crash is coming; our suburban honchos know what they're talking about.
In Minneapolis, baseball fans helped to swell ridership the first week, hopping on the train to attend three games between the Minnesota Twins and the Chicago White Sox at the Metrodome downtown.
The Hiawatha line snakes southward from downtown, ending for the time being just shy of the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. In December, the line will stretch another four miles, adding stops at the airport and at the Mall of America.
Speedy rail does have more power to draw riders, even to pull them out of their cars, than do rubber-wheeled busses. Transit officials in Portland, Ore., say that 72% of its light rail riders leave their cars at home or choose not to own cars, taking the train instead.
Those officials also report that ridership on both buses and trains has been steadily rising over the years. But just you wait. Portland will get its comeuppance.
Through a project called the Milwaukee Connector, public officials here are looking for a transit system to stitch together such tourist sites as downtown, Miller Park, the Summerfest grounds and Potawatomi Bingo Casino. Because the subject is verboten here, the officials ruled out light rail. New downtown Ald. Robert Bauman, however, apparently didn't get the memo. So he proposed a $120 million light rail system and got a polite commitment from Milwaukee Connector officials to look at that option.
Of course, a major reason for opposition to light rail is money. Officials who have no trouble plopping down $810 million to rebuild the Marquette Interchange balk at spending lesser amounts for light rail. Somehow, freeways are more worthy than mass transit - even when mass transit eases freeway traffic.
Foes of light rail, like Walker, argue that buses suffice. Yet in two years in office, Walker has dumped 12 bus routes, slashed service on 10 others, trimmed late-night service and raised the basic fare from $1.50 to $1.75.
Don't fret, though. Milwaukee hasn't pursued the light rail pipe dream, which will turn into a nightmare for the cities that did. They will learn what Milwaukee already knows: Don't think so big and bold. Just you wait and see.
Gregory Stanford is a Journal Sentinel editorial writer and columnist. His e-mail address is gstanford@journalsentinel.com
Now, my confession. My sister, who has a different last name, lives in Milwaukee and is a NIMBY when it comes to light rail. Her home abuts an abandoned C&NW right-of-way, a proposed light rail route, now a bike path, although it was an active rail line when she moved there. When I last visited, she indulged me with trips to the East Troy museum and the Kenosha streetcar line. In fact, her best friends owned Sheboygan interurban car #26 when it was a summer home, donated it to East Troy, and are spearheading its restoration to its glory.
I'm at a loss for an explanation.
The reason to include both car type and car number is because over the years car numbers have been used more than once. Also right after unification there were many instances of three cars (one each from the IRT,BMT and IND) having the same number.
Larry, RedbirdR33
*********************************************************************
Insteadtingly enough this plan was initiated in 2003. Personally I hope that Amtrak continues to be put on it's lean diet as in the plan they call to kill several active towers and destroy some classic PRR pneumatic interlockings. Amtrak also plans to retire it's Heritage fleet of coaches instead of rebuilding those Budd bueaties. Again, let's hope a lack of funding causes them to reconsider. The entire plan is at http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/strategic.pdf
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07062004.shtml#Amtrak
Mark
This one made me laugh... The high-speed Bullet train has one foot in the grave and they don't want Amtrack service?
Maybe we could promote something more modest in the meantime: electrification of the VRE lines to Manassas and Fredericksburg? More midday service and better integration with the PRTC?
Good idea. It's good because there's no way Atlanta will stand for it only going to Raleigh-Durham. You build to North Carolina and Atlanta will do everything in its power to get in on the action.
Mark
This is all just daydreaming and it includes a lot of wishful thinking, but it's fun to speculate.
Mark
Amtrack did not get all the money they wanted and are still thinking of expanding new routes?? Come on. This is just David Gunn dreaming.
No, it was ME dreaming.
: )
Mark
Can i PLEASE get something into atlanta and then charlotte!!! Why not extend whatever train that does that from up north to at least jax or tpa now!??
PLEASE!!
You ever see the NC page in the Amtrak guide and it says florida connections. 12 hours from me to the connection in NC, 6-8 hour wait for the next train, 6 more hours to go about 120 miles back to charlotte.
Is this a joke? This is 2004, why isn't there a connection?!?!? Put down the gay marriage amendment and do something!
They sound plenty busy to me. :)
Those will get swept aside anyway, no matter if Amtrak lives or dies.
*********************************************************************
This was reported about a week before the Times grade crossing investigation. Looks like the FRA made the right call.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07062004.shtml#FRA
I'm going to submit a comment asking that the FRA ask Congress thusly: any handling of the black box by other than an FRA official after an accident be defined as a felony punishable by up to 5 years in prison.
*********************************************************************
I always wonder why they do maintainence in the summer when it is evilly hot instead of other times of the year when the conditions are milder.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07062004.shtml#Why
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But I am sure someone will find a way to block it.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07062004.shtml#Pondering
I hope they get it for a few reasons. Traffic in that situation sucks. Old people "losing control" of their car suck. And it would be nice to not let all the abandoned lines and stations detoriate further. Maybe add some hints or order and organization to the area too. But they're going to wait until they exhaust all the sales and gas tax sources probably, which should be soon.
Plus all those counties bicker way too much.
What is this rail line used for today? I can understand sugar cane runs and all that, but I wouldn't know why it would be heading to ft. myers.
*********************************************************************
A little Op Ed piece on why FL needs more commuter rail.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07062004.shtml#Who
As much as I hope for commuter rail or LRT in O-town or Tampa, Jax may be a really viable area.
First, it's CSX headquarters and has an FEC connection.
Second, in history, Jacksonville at one point had the largest # of passenger trains coming thorugh it. It was a main hub.
Third, they have the monorail thing downtown already, and union station has a stop on it!
forth: Jacksonville is way behind on urban revitalization as the rest of florida is having. Though jax isn't really florida, it's a real southern city. But the georgia border is too far north, so let have it.
They have so many rails already existing, if they could have a track sharing agreement, this is golden.
You demonstrate a firm grasp of the intricacies of your state when you make a distinction between being Southern and being Florida!
As for Jacksonville, it's the home of Lynyrd Skynyrd, and you can't get more Southern than that!
Mark
But really, you can't tell Jax from Georgia. I could say the same about miami, not being florida. And when I do that, i can make a case for every other part to a lesser degree.
But then that's what I do like about the state. All five+ regions are like separate states.
But Jacksonville should get the rail. They have so many tracks laying around from it's years of being founded from rail(like tampa was), that it's a joke if they can't put some dirt as a platform, and a few railcars in motion.
*********************************************************************
Yes, but they totally gave me the cold shoulder when I inquired about an internship regarding their computer and network security.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07122004.shtml#Broadbent
*********************************************************************
Well of course people will prefer flying when you never provide any funding to improve the rail options.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07122004.shtml#Chicago
I hope they have the good sense to route this thing with stations at the big airports so it can be integrated with air travel for true multimodality.
Mark
As for Milwaukee, I'm surprised Metra doesn't go there. It's just another 40 from the Metra terminal at Kenosha. The track is already there, and the line uses diesels so no wires need to be strung.
Mark
*********************************************************************
I don't know if this was reported here, but Amtrak almost shut down the Adirondack (NYP to Montreale) because NY State had failed to pay their portion of the trains costs as per their agreement with Amtrak. It was really touch and go for a while if what has been cited as one of the most senic rail lines in the continent would cease operation.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07122004.shtml#Adirondack
*********************************************************************
looks like my rail investments might start payin off.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07122004.shtml#BNSF
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07122004.shtml#Harmonics
(I'm looking for the silver lining to this cloud).
*********************************************************************
I wonder if CSX's closing of Seneca yard had anything to do with this?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07122004.shtml#CP
Aint that NJTransit? Because the closest for that line is Trenton and that doesnt even reach into PA.
Mark
I'd really like it if NJT would give the 'NEC Line' a proper name, it sounds moronic. Perhaps they could call it the trenton line or something.
I aint sadly mistaken when I already said I thought it was the NJTransit line but had a feeling it was Amtrak that was talked about. So dont give me the sad mistaken part, it sounds like I knew nothing.
Of course NJT does have service in Philadelphia, and it does run on the NEC :)
Mark
"Midtown Direct" is NJT's term for trains that switch from the Hoboken lines to the NEC east of Newark and go into NYP.
Though true, you it confuses the person when they dont meantion what specific system. Remember NJ and Amtrak dont run the same schedule everytime, so it may/may not effect specific trains, etc...
"For some reason I thought any NE railfan knows the NEC DOES extend further than the NYC Commuter line."
Like I said, though true, you still got to meantion which specific system, makes no difference. And you dont need to be a NE fan to know where the NEC goes/stops/whatever.
"As such for you to assume that any delays on the NEC were NJT related around Philadelphia is completely illogical. I hope you'll excuse me for saying so, but I think I have just cause to wonder if you know anything."
Wow, from one post you think I dont know anything? Maybe you should be the next person banned for being arrogant. Each system is different, NJ and Amtrak might use the same tracks, but are completely different. They got different speed restrictions, and the cars are suited for different conditions while another might not. So stop acting like your god, and stop putting people down. It aint my fauly somebody says NEC and doesnt specifiy which system itself.
Your pal,
Google
I was wondering if the stopped service or ended the line early due to flooding.
Curious how the stations are doing. It'd be a shame if the old freight? station got swept away or something in the flood.
We have added in a new College Campus Gallery devoted to College Campus shuttle bus systems. We've also opened up the Green Bus Lines, Triboro Coach, MTA Metro North and Long Island Railroad Pages & have added in some new MTA Subway photos. In addition, we've added 2 new bus sounds, 2 new rail movies, and 1 new rail wallpaper.
Sit Back and Enjoy!
Click Train To Enter Update
Regards,
Trevor Logan
2 SIR transitpics.com photos are on TransiTalk.info!
>>>Transitalk SIR photos
>>>Transitpics.com SIR page(i used one of the pix Trevor used as this page's banner image)
(Please click here to sign my guestbook)
-Chris
Ever notice how nobody actually buys those X10 camera things?
I mean you no disrespect with this post, I just thought I'd advise you that a few folks (myself included) are getting upset over you hijacking threads with your photos. Just a friendly reminder from one of your peers at the (currently) peer-moderated forum of Subtalk. :)
See? We don't need no steenking MODs!
Im sorry if you (and other subtalkers) were offended by this, but I guess im kinda exited with my new site. I have made some inprovements with my posts like posting thumbnail links instead of just putting them all in the post, which takes along time to load and is annoying.
I am also currently working on a smaller banner thing for my posts as to make my posts somewhat less annoying. I see that you have a valid point and there is NO way I would want this to escalate into a big flame war(and Im sure no one else including u does either).
See? We don't need no steenking MODs!
Yea, but they sure are fun! :->
-Chris
Where are the 'Samsung' posts?
-Chris
-Chris
Hey, how old are they anyway? I'm so pissed I don't have a camera, yet. :(
They're both in middle school. They're not railfans at ALL, but they are kinda fascinated by the subway buff world online. My bro sometimes pokes fun at the subway (ex: he'll say 'i heard theres an r177 on the U train'). They found it interesting to know that the subway car inside a local Jewish eatery on SI is an arnine! Too bad u dont have a camera yet, but at least u have 10,000 peeps posting their pix from Mods on subtalk.
-Chris
-Chris
This picture is definitely not outside Werblin, still looks like College Ave to me.
I can get you some Werblin and Busch Student Center bus pictures in the Fall.
John
Click Here
Trevor
I didn't see my pix there, but of course it's a busy job. Maybe next time. Great update BTW.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Which new lanes would, of course, become choked with traffic practically before the asphalt's dry.
And if tourism goes beyond 2001 levels finally, it's fuller.
Anymore snowbird retiree's? fuller
Polk county with billions in construction and new people, probalby add a couple million residents.
Tampa with at least half a million more people, watch them brakes lights....
Orlando's insatiable sprawl, with god knows hwo many more ppl thanks to Jeb's western beltway....Can I drive on the shoulder? Wait there's poepole there. Where's Augustus Busch's helicopter at!!
It doesn't take a genious and bs stats to convince me. I'm just scared to death I wont' be able to go back and forth between cities someday, which is coming.
"screw this"
See, that's *my* Ambulance in the "station". And the tracks *are* closer to this City Hall then they are to your City Hall.
In any event, I'll be in *the* City on the 24th. See you on the MOD with my Lion in tow.
Elias
The Security checkpoint is in that little flap to the right of the garage door. Punch in the right code, and the door opens! : )
I have a key to the front door, just in case the power is off.
Elias
(Sitting in a public library in Pennsylvania... and waiting for my train ride on Saturday)
wayne
TO BEAT OR NOT TO BEAT: SUBWAY TRAIN
The World’s First Beat Poetry Rock Musical
Since their involvement in the First Annual New York International
Fringe Festival, (FringeNYC), The Liilaa Company (pronounced lee-lah) brings SUBWAY TRAIN to the 2004 festival taking place this August. The show will be playing at the Players Theatre, 115 MacDougal Street, with performances dates: 8/18 4pm; 8/19 7:30pm; 8/20 10:45pm; 8/26 10:15pm, and 8/28 8pm.
Tickets are $15 from FringeNYC at (212) 279-4488 or through their official website at http://www.fringenyc.org
SUBWAY TRAIN is set to take FringeNYC by storm - just one more stop on its journey toward breaking the standard of what musical theater is today. It tells a simple story of real people living their hopes and imperfections on the train. Through taking risks, the journey becomes one of consequence, rebirth, and self-discovery. However, most shows have stories. What sets Subway Train apart from other musicals is the way it functions and the authenticity of the work itself.
About 90% of SUBWAY TRAIN is comprised of true experiences that were
documented in journals while riding the New York City subway system. The show was put together like a puzzle by its creators through combining a series of individual pieces with original songs and musical underscoring. By fusing elements of classic beat-style poetry with a hip musical score as diverse as the city itself, SUBWAY TRAIN brings the spirit of the Beat Movement on stage together with the fresh music, ideas, and concerns of today’s generation.
SUBWAY TRAIN’s creators, Joshua Kobak, Mickey Fisher, and Katy Pfaffl, were like many subway riders – three Midwesterners who moved to New York only to discover the folklore of the subway system was as fascinating and true as the legends they grew up with. SUBWAY TRAIN is right on track towards bringing theatergoers of all ages together to experience a show unlike any other in FringeNYC, or in the Musical Theater scene of NYC at this time. It is a ride you won’t want to miss!
Official Site
http://www.subway-train.com
There was a musical stage in Germany called "Linie 1" (Line 1), with songs about the U-Bahn and the people on it. I'm sure you can still get in on amazon.de or www.footlight.com (Footlight Records, a record shop on 113 E. 12 St. near 4th Avenue in the Village).
Self rode many a time in those vestibules al aire....
Last I recall, the consist was still running on that interval...
IMHO, It SUCKS! No color anywhere. The only good thing is that they used a RiverLINE car to depict light rail.
IMHO, It SUCKS! No color anywhere. The only good thing is that they used a RiverLINE car to depict light rail.
I disagree. I think it looks great. The old web site was hard to navigate. I would rather sacrifice color over content. The new site is simple - which is a good thing.
Boston Herald article here
And you konw what? I am extremely surprised that mailboxes haven't been targetted yet by the powers that be here in Boston! Thankfully the USPS has some sense as to not be as hysterical as the Bostonian government folks
* ryan
And you know the ironic thing: the MBTA can make a fortune by charging the newspapers for the right to sell or give away their newspapers every morning and evening. Pretty stupid, since it's a huge market for the big two newspapers and the free newspaper. Oh well, guess the public has to get the shaft again thanks to laziness.
In the end, commuters will adjust by having their paper delivered to their home or buying one at Dunkin' Donuts on their way to the train station. And vendors still sell newspapers at many busy stations during rush hours.
Jim D.
No danger of encountering any terrorists at Dunkin' Donuts, of course, because half the police force is there at any given time.
Now, my confession. My sister, who has a different last name, lives in Milwaukee and is a NIMBY when it comes to light rail. Her home abuts an abandoned C&NW right-of-way, a proposed light rail route, now a bike path, although it was an active rail line when she moved there. When I last visited, she indulged me with trips to the East Troy museum and the Kenosha streetcar line. In fact, her best friends owned Sheboygan interurban car #26 when it was a summer home, donated it to East Troy, and are spearheading its restoration to its glory.
I'm at a loss for an explanation.
http://www.transitmuseumstore.com/ Click on the "Station Identification" section.
They have all the stations listed but not all have been set up for imprinting yet.
The prices are:
T-Shirt $24.00
Mug $17.00
Mouse Pad $16.00
Youth T-Shirt $19.00
The shipping costs will vary by the total price of the items ordered (and are not cheap). They ship via UPS or DHL.
Total order Shipping
$0.00 to $11.49 $7.50
$11.50 to $30.99 $6.00
$31.00 to $49.99 $8.00
$50.00 to $69.99 $10.00
$70.00 and $99.99 $14.00
$100.00 and Up $18.00
I think it is a good idea (I suggested something like this back in the early 1990's) but the pricing and shipping may limit the amount sold. Does anyone want to pay a total of $30.00 for a T-shirt regardless of what the subject matter is?
It's amazing how long it took for your idea, which was over 10 years ago, to mold into reality for the TM brass.
C'mon, Sid, save the poor mouth for later. You want a shirt or not?
Besides, you can probably buy 2 shirts for the same shipping cost. No, I take that back; it's 8 bucks to ship 2 shoits.
Your pal,
Warren
More gas used = more $$$$ for the Bushes.
And for Hussein, the Saudis and eventually to bin Laden...
Well maybe not Hussein anymore, but the others still stand...
More gas used = more $$$$ for the Bushes.
More misinformed propaganda. Since oil supplies are generally at a fixed amount, increasing demand won't lead to increased prices. Please stop parroting anti-Bush propaganda without verifying it's truthfullness.
If you want to rip Republicans, use a real reason, like their cozy relationship with those who would directly benefit from increased spending on highway construction.
Some of my choices:
City Hall IRT
Chambers Street BMT
Grand Central IRT (pre-"H" obviously)
Any others?
Of course, I missed that because I was the first revenue passenger to enter the station of Joanic, on line 4, when it opened that same day :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
I'd want to go to City Hall IRT, South Ferry IRT, or Coney Island BMT.
Looking at it today, you can sense that it once was a grandiose place indeed.
6/22/15 or 5/23/04?
til next time
Koi
I dunno which station on Queens Blvd this is but I'd want to go here just to eyewitness the sparse development. Thanks to whoever posted this photo here in the last year.
Your pal,
Fred
The trouble, of course, is that police officers and security guards are no more or less likely to be idiots tha other people.
It would be interesting to take the scenario that happened, and run a simulation of it at a police academy (using a computer-driven video simulator).
Ask 100 officers, chosen at random, to go through the simulator, and see how each responds to it. Would they fill a bell-curve? Would the top 5% watch the guy, conclude there is no issue, and move on, with the next few % approaching him politely and talking to him about photography, and so on, down to the bottom % who would handle it incompetently?
One thing the officers could have done is selected several photographers at random and requested ID from them.
That's photographer-profiling, similar to racial profiling by selectively pulling over motorists at random because they were of African-American descent, not based of a traffic violation being observered by the officers, unacceptable in either case.
OK, let's modify it again - they can interview a random selection of all people at the location. This would be similar to a random alcohol screening at a given street, where everyone, or a random selection (every 3rd car, say), are stopped for a sobriety check.
Now I'm letting my imagination go for a ride...
You wouldn’t have to. He would have died from oxygen toxicity.
It’s air in the tank.
You sure have a vivid imagination, Ron.
"Mainstream" might've been a poor choice of word. What I meant to say is that rail, especially subway, photography is a bit more specialized and less common than tourist-style photography; as a result, if ordinary tourist photography becomes subject to police harrassment, rail photographers will really be in for a tough time.
If cops racially profile and pull over a black driver for no reason, is it ok if they pull over a white driver for no reason as well?
This sounds a lot to me like the TSA strip-searching grandmothers and Congressmen, making nursing mothers drink their own breast milk, and trying to confiscate Congressional medals of honor from World War II veterans.
I think the biggest thing that cops can do to improve the situation is to drop the damn condescending, intimidating attitude - if they're polite, and ask questions nicely, I think you'll see a lot fewer complaints. I, for one, am highly put off whenever someoene takes an attitude with me, or I get the sense they're trying to intimidate me in order to more easily take advantage of me.
Old Way: "What the hell are you doing here?"
New Way: "Good afternoon, sir. Would you mind if I had a few words with you for a moment?"
Old way: "Show me your ID, motherf***er!"
New Way: "Could I please take a look at your driver's licence for a moment?"
I think you'll find that most people are much more forthcoming and much more cooperative when you use the "New Way" - in particular, many will voluntarily cede their Constitutional rights if they do not feel threatened. Not that that's right, but it's true; you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
Now, if the "New Way" fails, then police have the prerogative to use the "Old Way." The trouble is, some simply skip to the "Old Way" without bothering to even try the "New Way" -- it's less work that way since you don't have to repeat yourself.
Well, actually, yes - read my description of what a sobriety checkpoint does.
The rest of your post is absolutely correct. Not only that, but it would help if the officers' superiors treat them that way too, setting the example:
Old way:
"Hey Dickhead, what did I tell you about securing your friggin' radio. Jesus Christ, why do I bother putting you in a patrol car?"
Proper Way:
"Excuse me, Officer Dickson, if you would place your radio upright in the left-most loop on your belt you'll find that it is comfortable even in the car and you won't lose it while on patrol. Please have a safe shift."
On my last visit there, the freights were ruined, BNSF Heritage and Warbonnet C44-9Ws are now ruling the line, the workhorse SD40-2s often now relegated to followers. In perhaps the ultimate sacrilege, some of the SD40-2s have traded their muted and fitting cascade green and black for the gaudy Heritage schemes. It may LOOK like GN, but it sure as hell doesn't feel the same as the pics I've seen of GN locos crossing Salmon Bay. Of course now you have 2 or 3 Sounder trains crossing the bridge every day, I would like to see that, hopefully next spring.
It's terrible to hear that person was discriminated against. In addition to the police possibly acting beligerent, I'd like to know who phoned him in.
Looking around,there were others taking pictures[tourist]..so I said why he single us out,while there were dozzens of people taking pics...He asked me for ID and I said I didn't have to produce anything to him if we didn't do anything wrong..then I asked HIM for his ID
He showed his badge..[thats not ID.IT JUST SAYING HE'S A COP],meanwhile one of his friends walks over and doen't say anything,just stands there...
He goes thur the whole routine about 9/11 and so on...and yet again I tell him "But why US?"...
To make a long story short....after a while he gives up because Im thinking he just "profiled my friend and myself"..and she going off...!He finally said,"Get out of here...and watch yourself.the next person might not be so nice"
I said once again what did we do...what did she do to make you speak to use like that? HE and his buddy just walked away...
I was tight like a mother..and my friend was livid! But it was all good because I knew what that was all about...
he didn't want to answer ANY of my question,but keep pressing the issue about ID...I didn't show him jack,and neither did she.
He had nothing ,so he got nothing...
Funny thing is,while he was talking to us,there were other people walking pass and TALKING PICTURES!! Not one word was said to them....
Makes you wonder if we had the right shade on that day...
Where the People with the dogs are....and thats all over....
We're looking more and more like North Korea every day. Let us pray that Dear Leader soon sees the light...
that when my friend started taking her pictures...and there you go...
This is starting to become one damned scarey place.
All in the name of Bush...and his friends.
But knowing this city,and how some folks get down..I wouldn't be surprised if somebody tried that...
This one caught me off-guard. Why are freight railroads against passenger rail? This is INSANITY!
Don't they know that more rail is good for everyone??? Know we know why rail is in such bad condition.
I know freight lines don't like having to make time and space for Amtrak trains on their tracks, for one thing.
Mark
Mark<<<<
This high-speed bullet train will not run on freight lines.
Oter than that I can't see any effects. I'd love to know. Maybe CSX wants HSR too, haha. I thought of a suggestion of letting them use the tracks during non-operational hours, for a straight shot.
Daresay, a fine line between "harassed" and "assaulted".
THANKFUL Brah Allah had no bodily injury.
It may be my browser or the 17 inch screen that I have but unless I looked closer the 2nd photo actually appeared to be a photo of a model of the train and the station.
Pulling on your vest, ID badge and person is assult!!!!!!.
You should have gotten his badge number and reported him to LACMTA and the local cops. Maybe a conviction on an assult charge might cost him his job.
Well, maybe it's different in California but in NY and probably most states pulling on ones vest, ID badge and person certainly is not assault, it is harassment, a mere violation. For assault you need a physical injury. Reporting the motorman to LACMTA and the police would only have gotten Salaam laughed at and possibly he would have gotten in trouble for having the vest.
What happened to Salaam qualifies as assault even if the contact was minor in nature.
There will be variations among local jurisdictions but generally the law in the US follows the above principle.
The lawyers here may be amateurs, but they got it right.
There's another point beyond the actual legalities. I can't imagine that there's any transit agency anywhere in the country that doesn't prohibit its employees from using any sort of physical force against customers except when absolutely necessary to defend themselves. Of course, I wasn't there to see the present incident, so I have no idea what might have transpired.
This is not the street or your home you do not have the same rights on property.
Pulling an assailant off a victim of battery is clearly defensible, asis defending yourself from attack. Otherwise, it's probably better to let a law enforcement officer apply physical force just because of the legal liability involved.
If that were true every homeless person would pretent they were deaf.
TA workers with legal mishaps in this area have gone way too far.
Like making a ton of noise a foot away from someone is so much less offense then just tapping them on the leg anyway.
No. But you could first politely wake that person up (tap on the shoulder and so on). Then you ask him to leave. If he refuses you can tell him he risks arrest. Then you call a cop.
This way, you don't have to risk injury to yourself. If he assaults you of course you defend yourself.
If the person truly doesn't respond to you, or wake up, then it's time to call FDNY because this person may be ill and you need to rule that out too.
The general opinion here was that you never touch people and doing so was an assault and that is incorrect.
Ah, times have changed. Too many camcorders. (re: Rodney King case)
It's one thing to be polite and restrained in the face of adversity but something entirely else when your life is threatened.
Hey, you don't even need the right lawyer. All you need is the right prosecutors as most ADA's in NY (especially NYC) are incompetent.
The most extensive discussion of this issue is found in United States v. Swarovski, 557 F.2d 40 (2d Cir. 1977), cert.
denied, 434 U.S. 1045 (1978). In Swarovski, federal customs agents made a warrantless arrest of a defendant caught illegally
exporting a military camera. Because the federal agents did not have authority under federal law to make the arrest, they
invoked the citizen's arrest authority provided by section 140.30 of the New York Criminal Procedure Law. The principal
issue in the case was whether the Penal Law and the Criminal Procedure Law provide authority for a citizen's arrest for
violations of federal law, even though federal crimes are not, as indicated above, specifically referred to in those statutes. The
court reviewed the long history of federal law enforcement by state and local officers in New York as set forth in its own past
decisions, such as Marsh v. United States, 29 F.2d 172 (2d Cir. 1928) (upholding arrest of defendant by state officer for
federal misdemeanor under New York law), and United States v. Burgos, 269 F.2d 763 (2d Cir. 1959) (upholding arrest of
defendant by federal customs agents on immigration charges under New York's citizen's arrest provision), and the evolution
of the language of the New York statutes. It concluded that the statutes do provide such authority!
Citizen's arrest ... and case law already involves CAMERAS! Woohoo! Heh.
Where do you FIND this stuff, Selkirk?
--Mark
Of course, this does not mean they would lose the lawsuit, only that it could not be dismissed out of hand.
You REALLY don't get it, do you? And you call yourself a railfan?
S 120.00 Assault in the third degree.
A person is guilty of assault in the third degree when:
1. With intent to cause physical injury to another person, he causes
such injury to such person or to a third person; or
2. He recklessly causes physical injury to another person; or
3. With criminal negligence, he causes physical injury to another
person by means of a deadly weapon or a dangerous instrument.
Assault in the third degree is a class A misdemeanor.
S 120.01 Reckless assault of a child by a child day care provider.
A person is guilty of reckless assault of a child when, being a child
day care provider or an employee thereof, he or she recklessly causes
serious physical injury to a child under the care of such provider or
employee who is less than eleven years of age.
Reckless assault of a child by a child day care provider is a class E
felony.
S 120.03 Vehicular assault in the second degree.
A person is guilty of vehicular assault in the second degree when:
(1) with criminal negligence he causes serious physical injury to
another person, and either
(2) causes such serious physical injury by operation of a vehicle in
violation of subdivision two, three or four of section eleven hundred
ninety-two of the vehicle and traffic law or by operation of a vessel or
public vessel in violation of paragraph (b), (c), (d) or (e) of
subdivision two of section forty-nine-a of the navigation law, or
(3) causes such serious physical injury by operation of a motor
vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than eighteen
thousand pounds which contains flammable gas, radioactive materials or
explosives in violation of subdivision one of section eleven hundred
ninety-two of the vehicle and traffic law, and such flammable gas,
radioactive materials or explosives is the cause of such serious
physical injury, by operation of a snowmobile in violation of paragraph
(b), (c) or (d) of subdivision one of section 25.24 of the parks,
recreation and historic preservation law or by operation of an all
terrain vehicle as defined in paragraph (a) of subdivision one of
section twenty-two hundred eighty-one of the vehicle and traffic law and
in violation of subdivision two, three, or four of section eleven
hundred ninety-two of the vehicle and traffic law.
Vehicular assault in the second degree is a class E felony.
S 120.04 Vehicular assault in the first degree.
A person is guilty of vehicular assault in the first degree when he:
(1) commits the crime of vehicular assault in the second degree as
defined in section 120.03, and
(2) commits such crime while knowing or having reason to know that:
(a) his license or his privilege of operating a motor vehicle in another
state or his privilege of obtaining a license to operate a motor vehicle
in another state is suspended or revoked and such suspension or
revocation is based upon a conviction in such other state for an offense
which would, if committed in this state, constitute a violation of any
of the provisions of section eleven hundred ninety-two of the vehicle
and traffic law; or (b) his license or his privilege of operating a
motor vehicle in the state or his privilege of obtaining a license
issued by the commissioner of motor vehicles is suspended or revoked and
such suspension or revocation is based upon either a refusal to submit
to a chemical test pursuant to section eleven hundred ninety-four of the
vehicle and traffic law or following a conviction for a violation of any
of the provisions of section eleven hundred ninety-two of the vehicle
and traffic law.
Vehicular assault in the first degree is a class D felony.
S 120.05 Assault in the second degree.
A person is guilty of assault in the second degree when:
1. With intent to cause serious physical injury to another person, he
causes such injury to such person or to a third person; or
2. With intent to cause physical injury to another person, he causes
such injury to such person or to a third person by means of a deadly
weapon or a dangerous instrument; or
3. With intent to prevent a peace officer, police officer, a fireman,
including a fireman acting as a paramedic or emergency medical
technician administering first aid in the course of performance of duty
as such fireman, an emergency medical service paramedic or emergency
medical service technician, or medical or related personnel in a
hospital emergency department, from performing a lawful duty, by means
including releasing or failing to control an animal under circumstances
evincing the actor`s intent that the animal obstruct the lawful activity
of such peace officer, police officer, fireman, paramedic or technician,
he causes physical injury to such peace officer, police officer,
fireman, paramedic, technician or medical or related personnel in a
hospital emergency department; or
4. He recklessly causes serious physical injury to another person by
means of a deadly weapon or a dangerous instrument; or
5. For a purpose other than lawful medical or therapeutic treatment,
he intentionally causes stupor, unconsciousness or other physical
impairment or injury to another person by administering to him, without
his consent, a drug, substance or preparation capable of producing the
same; or
6. In the course of and in furtherance of the commission or attempted
commission of a felony, other than a felony defined in article one
hundred thirty which requires corroboration for conviction, or of
immediate flight therefrom, he, or another participant if there be any,
causes physical injury to a person other than one of the participants;
or
7. Having been charged with or convicted of a crime and while confined
in a correctional facility, as defined in subdivision three of section
forty of the correction law, pursuant to such charge or conviction, with
intent to cause physical injury to another person, he causes such injury
to such person or to a third person; or
8. Being eighteen years old or more and with intent to cause physical
injury to a person less than eleven years old, the defendant recklessly
causes serious physical injury to such person; or
9. Being eighteen years old or more and with intent to cause physical
injury to a person less than seven years old, the defendant causes such
injury to such person; or
10. Acting at a place the person knows, or reasonably should know, is
on school grounds and with intent to cause physical injury, he or she:
(a) causes such injury to an employee of a school or public school
district; or
(b) not being a student of such school or public school district,
causes physical injury to another, and such other person is a student of
such school who is attending or present for educational purposes. For
purposes of this subdivision the term "school grounds" shall have the
meaning set forth in subdivision fourteen of section 220.00 of this
chapter.
11. With intent to cause physical injury to a train operator, ticket
inspector, conductor or bus operator employed by any transit agency,
authority or company, public or private, whose operation is authorized
by New York state or any of its political subdivisions, he or she causes
physical injury to such train operator, ticket inspector, conductor or
bus operator while such employee is performing an assigned duty on, or
directly related to, the operation of a train or bus.
Assault in the second degree is a class D felony.
S 120.06 Gang assault in the second degree.
A person is guilty of gang assault in the second degree when, with
intent to cause physical injury to another person and when aided by two
or more other persons actually present, he causes serious physical
injury to such person or to a third person.
Gang assault in the second degree is a class C felony.
S 120.07 Gang assault in the first degree.
A person is guilty of gang assault in the first degree when, with
intent to cause serious physical injury to another person and when aided
by two or more other persons actually present, he causes serious
physical injury to such person or to a third person.
Gang assault in the first degree is a class B felony.
S 120.08 Assault on a peace officer, police officer, fireman or
emergency medical services professional.
A person is guilty of assault on a peace officer, police officer,
fireman or emergency medical services professional when, with intent to
prevent a peace officer, police officer, a fireman, including a fireman
acting as a paramedic or emergency medical technician administering
first aid in the course of performance of duty as such fireman, or an
emergency medical service paramedic or emergency medical service
technician, from performing a lawful duty, he causes serious physical
injury to such peace officer, police officer, fireman, paramedic or
technician.
Assault on a peace officer, police officer, fireman or emergency
medical services professional is a class C felony.
S 120.10 Assault in the first degree.
A person is guilty of assault in the first degree when:
1. With intent to cause serious physical injury to another person, he
causes such injury to such person or to a third person by means of a
deadly weapon or a dangerous instrument; or
2. With intent to disfigure another person seriously and permanently,
or to destroy, amputate or disable permanently a member or organ of his
body, he causes such injury to such person or to a third person; or
3. Under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life,
he recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to
another person, and thereby causes serious physical injury to another
person; or
4. In the course of and in furtherance of the commission or attempted
commission of a felony or of immediate flight therefrom, he, or another
participant if there be any, causes serious physical injury to a person
other than one of the participants.
Assault in the first degree is a class B felony.
S 120.11 Aggravated assault upon a police officer or a peace officer.
A person is guilty of aggravated assault upon a police officer or a
peace officer when, with intent to cause serious physical injury to a
person whom he knows or reasonably should know to be a police officer or
a peace officer engaged in the course of performing his official duties,
he causes such injury by means of a deadly weapon or dangerous
instrument.
Aggravated assault upon a police officer or a peace officer is a class
B felony.
S 120.12 Aggravated assault upon a person less than eleven years old.
A person is guilty of aggravated assault upon a person less than
eleven years old when being eighteen years old or more the defendant
commits the crime of assault in the third degree as defined in section
120.00 of this article upon a person less than eleven years old and has
been previously convicted of such crime upon a person less than eleven
years old within the preceding three years.
Aggravated assault upon a person less than eleven years old is a class
E felony.
S 120.13 Menacing in the first degree.
A person is guilty of menacing in the first degree when he or she
commits the crime of menacing in the second degree and has been
previously convicted of the crime of menacing in the second degree
within the preceding ten years.
Menacing in the first degree is a class E felony.
S 120.14 Menacing in the second degree.
A person is guilty of menacing in the second degree when:
1. He or she intentionally places or attempts to place another person
in reasonable fear of physical injury, serious physical injury or death
by displaying a deadly weapon, dangerous instrument or what appears to
be a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or other firearm; or
2. He or she repeatedly follows a person or engages in a course of
conduct or repeatedly commits acts over a period of time intentionally
placing or attempting to place another person in reasonable fear of
physical injury, serious physical injury or death; or
3. He or she commits the crime of menacing in the third degree in
violation of that part of a duly served order of protection, or such
order which the defendant has actual knowledge of because he or she was
present in court when such order was issued, pursuant to article eight
of the family court act, section 530.12 of the criminal procedure law,
or an order of protection issued by a court of competent jurisdiction in
another state, territorial or tribal jurisdiction, which directed the
respondent or defendant to stay away from the person or persons on whose
behalf the order was issued.
Menacing in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.
S 120.15 Menacing in the third degree.
A person is guilty of menacing in the third degree when, by physical
menace, he or she intentionally places or attempts to place another
person in fear of death, imminent serious physical injury or physical
injury.
Menacing in the third degree is a class B misdemeanor.
S 120.16 Hazing in the first degree.
A person is guilty of hazing in the first degree when, in the course
of another person`s initiation into or affiliation with any
organization, he intentionally or recklessly engages in conduct which
creates a substantial risk of physical injury to such other person or a
third person and thereby causes such injury.
Hazing in the first degree is a class A misdemeanor.
S 120.17 Hazing in the second degree.
A person is guilty of hazing in the second degree when, in the course
of another person`s initiation or affiliation with any organization, he
intentionally or recklessly engages in conduct which creates a
substantial risk of physical injury to such other person or a third
person.
Hazing in the second degree is a violation.
S 120.20 Reckless endangerment in the second degree.
A person is guilty of reckless endangerment in the second degree when
he recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of
serious physical injury to another person.
Reckless endangerment in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.
S 120.25 Reckless endangerment in the first degree.
A person is guilty of reckless endangerment in the first degree when,
under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, he
recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to
another person.
Reckless endangerment in the first degree is a class D felony.
S 120.30 Promoting a suicide attempt.
A person is guilty of promoting a suicide attempt when he
intentionally causes or aids another person to attempt suicide.
Promoting a suicide attempt is a class E felony.
S 120.35 Promoting a suicide attempt; when punishable as attempt to
commit murder.
A person who engages in conduct constituting both the offense of
promoting a suicide attempt and the offense of attempt to commit murder
may not be convicted of attempt to commit murder unless he causes or
aids the suicide attempt by the use of duress or deception.
S 120.40 Definitions.
For purposes of sections 120.45, 120.50, 120.55 and 120.60 of this
article:
1. "Kidnapping" shall mean a kidnapping crime defined in article one
hundred thirty-five of this chapter.
2. "Unlawful imprisonment" shall mean an unlawful imprisonment felony
crime defined in article one hundred thirty-five of this chapter.
3. "Sex offense" shall mean a felony defined in article one hundred
thirty of this chapter, sexual misconduct, as defined in section 130.20
of this chapter, sexual abuse in the third degree as defined in section
130.55 of this chapter or sexual abuse in the second degree as defined
in section 130.60 of this chapter.
4. "Immediate family" means the spouse, former spouse, parent, child,
sibling, or any other person who regularly resides or has regularly
resided in the household of a person.
5. "Specified predicate crime" means:
a. a violent felony offense;
b. a crime defined in section 130.20, 130.25, 130.30, 130.40, 130.45,
130.55, 130.60, 130.70 or 255.25;
c. assault in the third degree, as defined in section 120.00; menacing
in the first degree, as defined in section 120.13; menacing in the
second degree, as defined in section 120.14; coercion in the first
degree, as defined in section 135.65; coercion in the second degree, as
defined in section 135.60; aggravated harassment in the second degree,
as defined in section 240.30; harassment in the first degree, as defined
in section 240.25; menacing in the third degree, as defined in section
120.15; criminal mischief in the third degree, as defined in section
145.05; criminal mischief in the second degree, as defined in section
145.10, criminal mischief in the first degree, as defined in section
145.12; criminal tampering in the first degree, as defined in section
145.20; arson in the fourth degree, as defined in section 150.05; arson
in the third degree, as defined in section 150.10; criminal contempt in
the first degree, as defined in section 215.51; endangering the welfare
of a child, as defined in section 260.10; or
d. stalking in the fourth degree, as defined in section 120.45;
stalking in the third degree, as defined in section 120.50; stalking in
the second degree, as defined in section 120.55; or
e. an offense in any other jurisdiction which includes all of the
essential elements of any such crime for which a sentence to a term of
imprisonment in excess of one year or a sentence of death was authorized
and is authorized in this state irrespective of whether such sentence
was imposed.
S 120.45 Stalking in the fourth degree.
A person is guilty of stalking in the fourth degree when he or she
intentionally, and for no legitimate purpose, engages in a course of
conduct directed at a specific person, and knows or reasonably should
know that such conduct:
1. is likely to cause reasonable fear of material harm to the physical
health, safety or property of such person, a member of such person`s
immediate family or a third party with whom such person is acquainted;
or
2. causes material harm to the mental or emotional health of such
person, where such conduct consists of following, telephoning or
initiating communication or contact with such person, a member of such
person`s immediate family or a third party with whom such person is
acquainted, and the actor was previously clearly informed to cease that
conduct; or
3. is likely to cause such person to reasonably fear that his or her
employment, business or career is threatened, where such conduct
consists of appearing, telephoning or initiating communication or
contact at such person`s place of employment or business, and the actor
was previously clearly informed to cease that conduct.
Stalking in the fourth degree is a class B misdemeanor.
S 120.50 Stalking in the third degree.
A person is guilty of stalking in the third degree when he or she:
1. Commits the crime of stalking in the fourth degree in violation of
section 120.45 of this article against three or more persons, in three
or more separate transactions, for which the actor has not been
previously convicted; or
2. Commits the crime of stalking in the fourth degree in violation of
section 120.45 of this article against any person, and has previously
been convicted, within the preceding ten years of a specified predicate
crime, as defined in subdivision five of section 120.40 of this article,
and the victim of such specified predicate crime is the victim, or an
immediate family member of the victim, of the present offense; or
3. With intent to harass, annoy or alarm a specific person,
intentionally engages in a course of conduct directed at such person
which is likely to cause such person to reasonably fear physical injury
or serious physical injury, the commission of a sex offense against, or
the kidnapping, unlawful imprisonment or death of such person or a
member of such person`s immediate family; or
4. Commits the crime of stalking in the fourth degree and has
previously been convicted within the preceding ten years of stalking in
the fourth degree.
Stalking in the third degree is a class A misdemeanor.
S 120.55 Stalking in the second degree.
A person is guilty of stalking in the second degree when he or she:
1. Commits the crime of stalking in the third degree as defined in
subdivision three of section 120.50 of this article and in the course of
and in furtherance of the commission of such offense: (i) displays, or
possesses and threatens the use of, a firearm, pistol, revolver, rifle,
shotgun, machine gun, electronic dart gun, electronic stun gun, cane
sword, billy, blackjack, bludgeon, metal knuckles, chuka stick, sand
bag, sandclub, slingshot, slungshot, shirken, "Kung Fu Star", dagger,
dangerous knife, dirk, razor, stiletto, imitation pistol, dangerous
instrument, deadly instrument or deadly weapon; or (ii) displays what
appears to be a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or other
firearm; or
2. Commits the crime of stalking in the third degree in violation of
subdivision three of section 120.50 of this article against any person,
and has previously been convicted, within the preceding five years, of a
specified predicate crime as defined in subdivision five of section
120.40 of this article, and the victim of such specified predicate crime
is the victim, or an immediate family member of the victim, of the
present offense; or
3. Commits the crime of stalking in the fourth degree and has
previously been convicted of stalking in the third degree as defined in
subdivision four of section 120.50 of this article against any person;
or
4. Being twenty-one years of age or older, repeatedly follows a person
under the age of fourteen or engages in a course of conduct or
repeatedly commits acts over a period of time intentionally placing or
attempting to place such person who is under the age of fourteen in
reasonable fear of physical injury, serious physical injury or death.
Stalking in the second degree is a class E felony.
S 120.60 Stalking in the first degree.
A person is guilty of stalking in the first degree when he or she
commits the crime of stalking in the third degree as defined in
subdivision three of section 120.50 or stalking in the second degree as
defined in section 120.55 of this article and, in the course and
furtherance thereof, he or she:
1. intentionally or recklessly causes physical injury to the victim of
such crime; or
2. commits a class A misdemeanor defined in article one hundred thirty
of this chapter, or a class E felony defined in section 130.25, 130.40
or 130.85 of this chapter, or a class D felony defined in section 130.30
or 130.45 of this chapter.
Stalking in the first degree is a class D felony.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c82/a27.html
New York law is an interesting sausage ... lots of chunky things inside, lots of pork. :)
The OFFICIAL answer to the question though is "Hey, you're not gonna fool me again with that damn question. It's been 25 years since the leprechauns first asked me that one. I know, and I'm not telling you."
Yes, the Porridge bird IS John Ashcroft, and the REASON why the Eagle sores. (grin)
That's not clear.
"It's not within a patrol officer's duties though to offer legal advice on civil matters. So I give him a score on his answer."
If it was a civil matter -but again, not clear.
"battery" doesn't exist as a criminal act.
Sure it does. NYS just uses a different vocabulary word.
Let the beatings begin (with a bit of restraint) ...
He didn't back you up. You didn't understand what you just read.
The previous descriptions of "assault and battery" are translated in NYS code to "menacing and assault." Thus, what happened to Salaam is "assault" under English common law and many state jurisdictions, and would be classified as "menacing" in New York State.
New York State code differentiates between the threat and the actual injury just as other states do. Different terms are substituted, however, as I've shown.
If you slap someone with an open hand and cause injury in New York, you're going to be prosecuted. It isn't trivial, and it can cause serious injury (such as barotrauma to the ear, deafness, or an orbital fracture).
Do yourself a favor. You're retired, and you're out of touch with the penal code. Leave it at that, and stop whining about people who are trying to teach you something.
Hmm, I see someone took a triple dose of nasty pills this morning.
That was totally uncalled for, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
I believe that comes from having taken college-level basic law courses. IIRC in CIVIL cases the threat of force is considered "assault", while the actual use of force is considered "battery". Civil law and criminal law do not always coincide however.
You didn't read Selkirk's posting of the law or my reply.
So I'll present it again:
Assault and battery correspond to the threat of violence and the performance of that violence, respectively. If you read Selkirk's post, you will see that, in New York, "Menacing and Assault" replace the terms "Assault and Battery" - but the principle is the same.
Go back and read Selkirk's post - all of it.
Not all threats are merely harassment.
In essence, you're absolutely right ... but in PRACTICE, that dog won't hunt. (grin)
Of course, a smart ADA will exploit whatever he/she can.
OK ... a "SMART" ADA knows when to hold 'em, knows when to fold 'em ... if you want to WIN a case, then you DON'T pyth off a judge with a stuffed docket, cops who have to come in on their DAY OFF to testify, and a raft of others by bringing a petit case in front of the court. At least not CRIMINAL court.
When a perp is arrested, kiss those "punitive damages" byebye ... "punitive" was extracted by "the system" ... OFF the table. When you go to civil trial with JUST "compensatories" and no "punitives" then there goes your commission. Jury/Summary is limited to the ACTUAL costs which means that the plaintiff recovers BUPKISS (no comments, please from the peanut gallery) and you get a THIRD of bupkiss. No, the REALITY as practiced under NYS law is designed to protect the LAWYERS, not the "shovee" ... as long as the perp don't get arrested or go to jail, then the PLAINTIFF can go for "gane mas dinero" ... that's what makes the law the law, the "contingency fee plus expenses."
They AIN'T gonna screw with that - and that's why this is why sausage tastes like chicken in this state. :)
Next January, a lawyer like that may be one bullet away from the Presidency.
Vote for Kerry/Edwards - they're not as bad as Bush/Cheney.
Vote Bush - he's not as bad as Saddam Hussein.
Vote Hussein - he's not as bad as bin Laden.
To use the sand analogy once more, many of these fools seem to believe that throwing it into the gears will make the machine run better. One image I have of this is kids hiding behind their mamas' skirts (that is, the protection they enjoy from living in a generally law-abiding civil society) sticking their tongues out at their family and saying "nah nah!". Knowing that the very structure upon which they feel secure and confident enough to make (in many cases) outlandish claims of "injustice" will protect them from personal and societal harm.
They can't see the forest for the trees.
No, *battery* requires those things. *Assault* can be as simple as a threat - a closed fist pulled back, a weapon held in striking position, etc. When you raise your fist it's assault; when you deck the guy it's battery.
And why do we want people to get in trouble for trivial things? Well, trivial abuses, especially when committed by those in authority, but in general as well, tend to slide the slippery slope to become serious abuses if not nipped in the bud.
If state troopers stopped pulling people over on the highway for (in the big picture) trivial infractions such as speeding or improper lane change, pretty soon everyone will be driving around like animals (even more so than now).
If no one stands up for following procedure to the letter in the trial of that scumbag Zacarias Moussaoui, then procedures will be abridged in the subsequent trials of people who might not be scumbags - say, your next-door neighbor who maybe overstayed his visa or had some bureaucratic snafu with Immigration - the hell with his right to a fair trial, we'll just throw away the key like we did with Moussaoui.
If we allowed evidence collected improperly (without a warrant or probable cause) to stand in a court of law, well, pretty soon 3/4 the evidence out there will have been collected improperly since the officers know it'll stand anyway, and it makes their job easier to act without justification and let the ACLU ask questions later.
If we accept harassment of railfan photographers, even if the badge does a couple things he/she's not supposed to do, as necessary to improve security, who will be next on the list for harassment? Railfans certainly weren't the first to be targeted, and even more certainly they won't be the last. And the sloppy techniques we fail to protest will soon become standard practice.
But what can and must we do to make the mass majority of people in this country understand how truly serious this issue is?
Maybe the NYS definitions are different - I'm no lawyer, after all :) All I know is Don't do the stuff I listed above, lest I become Bruno's temporary cellmate at Riker's...
http://www.tastymanatees.com/archives/000341.html
Backasswards - welcome to New York. :)
Got WAY too many "cop buddies" for my own good, a personality flaw of mine that dates back to the 1970's (cops and I get along REAL well). That all said, you "know or should have known" the realities of "if we're going to do this paperwork and then have to take a day off to APPEAR, then THIS chit better be real. Don't want to look like a sucker when the perp smiles at me and flips me the bird as they WALK. HALF a bust is better than NO bust. I'll bet you've been there yourself. :)
FACT: "Assault and battery" is a *CIVIL* matter ... you write up the eport, you're done. Battle of the witnesses. No witnesses, no issue. YOUR job as a cop was to deal with someone whose "assault" was CRIMINAL and nothing more. Assault is usually a charge copped to when you don't have enough PROFF that it was "attempted murder." When SUCH is the case, then you get to do a perp walk in NYS. Lacking that, it's up to the lawyers and the medical paperwork at 1-800-INJURED to sort out.
A *lot* of cops never come to realize that THEIR job is really "domestic military" and if nobody's really shooting or dead, you turn it over to the MP's ... back in my formative years, assholes were dealt with by a simple "ride around the block," beatne, hosed and told "not worth the paperwork." Then, as you said, camcorders. No more "backseat justice" and it's over - now it's either "haul them in and tell the desk sarge, "asshole" ... or give them a "police report" and send them on their merry way to a yellow pages nearest them.
BOTTOM LINE: Salaam *does* have a potential CIVIL CASE ... but not a CRIMINAL one ... and so it goes. Moo. :)
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2004/05/02/story948455514.asp
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/print.asp?page=story_5-3-2003_pg4_4
Run sin the family ... but it gets better, heh ... (what's he gonna do, ARREST me? When we was kids, I'd arrest HIM!) ...
http://www.csoonline.com/movers/032204_2341.html ... Hahahaha ... I'm lovin' it. But yeah, cop family, cop wipers, cop shocks, cop motors, cop in the woodpile and cop an attitude. Moo. :)
So the monorail blows. Bring enough bling, and you'll get comped. Heh.
You REALLY don't get it, do you?
What that LACMTA employee did to this man is wrong, plain and simple!
Would you like or appreciate it if this happenned to you?
And you call yourself a railfan?
I realize you are with a different agency 3,000 miles away but why would you take the side of Sallam over a fellow operator? Aren't you a union member?
I don't know, those pictures seem pretty artisic, i can imgine your stance right now trying to get those angles. Thats clue #1.
I wouldn't see aproblem with a few questions, but those two things are a little obvious. How long did this go on for?
Just curious, did LACMTA issue that vest and safety tag ?
Bill "Newkirk"
So a LACMTA employee issued the vest and tag and not LACMTA management ? I'm not sure whether you are an employee of LACMTA or not. Is this safety tag a photo ID ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Sorry about the operator grabbing at you...next time at least make sure it's a blonde of the opposite sex...:0)
Nah, just a west coast version of Daruius.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
"I would have canned him for that. Other than getting his name/number down with location, time, and train cab number and reporting it to the police/his supervisors, I would have decked him with my cane and have other chicanos in the area kick his ass hard for being an idiot."
This Hispanic guy recently turned 80 and has three kids. He lives where I live and his kids live in Glendale CA. He drove for a little over four decades with RTD/Metro. He even once showed me his old RTD id as well as his newly-issued METRO id, both of which say "RETIRED" on it. (yes, can ride for free for life with the ID). He has driven the mean streets of LA, especially in Watts, East LA, Echo Park, and Montebello sections. He has only missed work only twice, once in Aug 1965 because of the Watts Riots.
Anyhow, I though I'd include my US$0.02 worth in this. :)
When the N train was entering Queensboro Plaza, I noticed:
- Signals on the southbound 7 line were red
- A southbound 7 train was on the curve, waiting at one of the signals
- A northbound 7 train waiting across the platform for the arriving N train.
And then, at 33rd Street, I noticed a Manhattan-bound work train on the middle track.
What a weird night!
A good article in USA Today states that 21 cities are adding or restoring lines.
From the article:
>>>>In 1988, New Orleans opened a new streetcar line that runs along the Mississippi River. It proved to be a huge success and led to the rebuilding of the Canal Street line. The $160 million line, with 80% paid in federal funds, attracted 125,000 riders the first week it was back in service in April.<<<<<
This is what the Hudson Bergen light Rail attracts each week! An it's a trolley!
The courts had a different opinion on that matter if I recall correctly...
Mark
I think it was all of the above. With the GM and oil folks at the top of the ripple on down. But I didn't live in the 30's-50's. But human nature never changes.
Mark
No, not even when traffic jams instantly materialized on every interstate built . . .
There was a reason that the commuter train survived.
Good one.....
General motors pleaded guilty and now we're paying hundreds of millions installing the lightrails and trolley they destroyed.
Jeff, you just might be onto a pattern here. Hartford (they ripped their tracks out decades ago) had a proposal for a Griffin Line light rail route from Bloomfield to downtown. But that fell through and now ConnDOT is proposing busways. It seems to me like it's the major Northeastern and older Midwestern cities (except maybe Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Buffalo and St. Louis) that are ignoring the success of light rail. All the newly-opened and proposed streetcar/LRV systems that I hear about are down south or out west - Houston, Dallas, Charlotte, New Orleans (Canal St Line), Denver (C Line), Memphis, Jacksonville, Sacramento, Portland (Streetcar), Tampa, LA (Gold Line), Salt Lake City, Richmond and Tacoma. Minneapolis's new Hiawatha Line and Washignton's proposed Anacostia are possibly the exceptions to this - unless I'm missing any others.
But for Boston, Hartford, New York and Philadelphia - what gives?
That's why good urban planning has to be practiced along with building new rail lines.
Actually, Canal Street in New Orleans could use some revitalization. Between the souvenir shops there are lots of empty storefronts and the upper floors of most of the buildings are vacant. I'd love to see all that space turned into apartments or condos. I think that'd be hot property for young professionals who want to live close to the action. I hope some sort of development like this is carried out to compliment the streetcar line's reactivation. Maybe it will, if the streetcar increases property values and makes developers want to invest in that area once again.
Mark
New Orleans' streetcars are much more than "tourist" attractions. The Riverfront line is the only "mostly" touris route. St Charles and Canal serve commuters too, and mostly commuters. Sure, they attract their normal tourists, but are also used heavily by the locals for commuting. That is one of the reasons the Canal St line's cars had to be air conditioned, as opposed to the St Charles' old vintage units. It would have been a hard sell if they were going to pull the locals out of their air conditioned buses and put them on sweaty streeetcars without AC.
They're marginal in downtowns that see less "action" than in prior decades and they don't have to contend with other traffic
Interestingly, Canal St is just a street like that, lost most of it's action years ago. Canal St is a shadow of it's former self. Aside from the few blocks closest to the River, Canal is not a touristy street. The tourists stop around Bourbon St or Charondolett St (aside from at Mardis Gras when Canal is a major parade route). Once you pass that, Canal looks much like Jamaica Ave did in the 1980's - lined with empty stores in beautiful and large buildings. Empty theaters, and "Jamaica Ave-like" junk stores in the stores that are occupied. They hope this will change once the streetcars bring the tourists a little past Bourbon St. Once you pass I-10, it's certainly not a touristy area, and totally residential, etc for the majority of it's route.
They're useless in traffic.
While there is some street running on the St Charles line, most of New Orleans' streetcars run in the middle of their streets, in what they call "neutral ground".
I dont' know where exactly they terminated to the south and the freight trains began.
Was there ever really a streetcar named Desire?
As per tour guide during anglisizing, the street named Desir'e was incorrectly translated to desire.
Arti
Mark
Anyway, the rumour has that Desire is also funded.
Arti
Mark
http://world.nycsubway.org/us/neworleans/
Actually, the Desire corridor route is in jeopardy becayse of this dispute with Norfolk Southern. Everyone wants the route, it's funded, and waiting to go, but it may have to be cmpletely scrapped, or truncated at the NS tracks. AN underpass can't be used because of the flooding nature of New orleans. An overpass is opposed because it will ruin the historic feel of the area - so there it sits. NS rfefuses to allow an at grade crossing no matter how many lights bells and gates the city offered to use.
Amazing. There NIMBY's are non-existent, there is funding, everyone seems to want it, but then a hurdle like this is thrown in.
1) Convince the residents that the advantages of a well-designed overpass far outweigh the minuses, and then go ahead and do it with resident input (pay off the NIMBYS as needed to shut them up).
2) Get the governor involved and play hardball with NS. There are ways states can do this (the railroads do not hold all the cards, though they hold most of them). Cooperate with the trolley and we'll offer you some carrots. Screw with us and we'll hurt you.
Where's Robert Boyle when you need him? :0)
I think the overpass could be designed to fit in. If the Parisians can make els that fit the Fin de Siecle look of Paris, New Orleans can make an overpassed trimmed up with wrought iron and gaslamps that would blend in with rest of the Vieux Carre.
I don't follow how Robert Boyle fits into this...please fill me in.
Mark
He was the director of the PA when AirTrain was being planned. AirTrain's main opponents were the airlines, not community NIMBY (what NIMBY there was was encouraged and paid for by airline money). The airlines sued the PA in court over the use of PFT money to build AirTrain because they wanted that money used exclusively within the airport for terminal and other improvements (helping them send their own money to their profit line). Boyle eventually played hardball with them, telling American's Don Carty, for example, that Carty could forget about his new terminal at JFK unless American dropped its lawsuit.
The result? The airlines surrendered and withdrew the lawsuit. It was still pursued by a small group of people in SE Queens, and the Court of Appeals upheld the PA's position completely.
The facts in the New Orleans situation are different, but the presence of a determined, smart bulldog like Boyle would help a lot.
: )
I definitely agree with you though, that New Orleans needs tough and determined leadership to make all this happen.
Does anyone know how Mayor Marc Morial stands on all of this?
Mark
Or we can hire a couple of call girls to sleep with those suites at NS and threaten to tell their wives that.....
Ooops. Sounds like Jersey Politics! ;-)
Ever hear a New Orleans accent? Let's just say accents aren't the only thing New Jersey and New Orleans have in common...
Mark
Here's one of the photos, apparently, the photo links changed in subwayspot.com because the don't come up anymore in my thread (don't know why because they are still there at subwayspot), but here's some of the of the photos:
From the travel agency site http://www.rtttravel.com/cruises/ships/qe2.htm: A top of the line suite (Q1, for Queen's Grill restaurant, category 1) has a per person rate of $29900, $30150, or $30190, double occupancy, across the Atlantic Ocean.
Unknown: whether the Titanic ticket was also per person, double occupancy.
Your call. The Queen Mary 2 suite is probably bigger than the one on the "Titanic" was.
Like life boats.
Amateurs built the Ark... Professionals built the Titanic.
Plus things were different. Taxation and the value of money and the likes.
I'd like to work on the QM2 sometime for at least one contract. owned by Cunard(carnival folks), but it's harder than I imagined it seems like.
* ryan
* ryan
Mike
BTW, Sunday's weather report looks very bad :(
-Chris
There aren't any other "operational" BMT/IND SMEE's for it to run with. Unless the SMEEs in the transit museum are operational, and they are holding out on us.
Robert
Robert
You Basically have yourself a nice 6-car MOD train.
Trevor
R10#3184
R11#8013
R16#6305
R16#6339
an R30 set
an R32 set
an R42 set
a 10 car MOD train.
til next time
I'm scared ...
til next time
Oh, the humanity!
Seems like bye-bye R16's.
til next time
til next time
til next time
til next time
Gerry
I hate to break it to you, but the E is an 8th Avenue local.
Besides, it seems the R32's only run on the F more often during rush hour or weekends. Just avoid the F then.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
You forgot the R110A/B.
-RJM
Sounds backwards to me, but we'll see. I like the R46s because that's what I've always had, but I'm comfortable with either.
til next time
The E (which has a MUCH lower car requirement than the F) is supposed to be all R-32. Perhaps THAT's what's being straightened out -- better compliance with the car assignment.
David
David
I don't think there are enough R32's in Jamaica to equip the entire F fleet.
-RJM
-Broadway Buffer
The R32 F is great especially on the Culver line and Smith-9th. What a great view that is and also the approach to the CI station = I'll take an R32 F over R46 F anyday. In fact I say give the F all the Jamacia R32's and give the R46's to the E/G/R/V
Da Hui
As to my preference, I'd like to see more R32's on the F. R46's tend to get pretty boring, especially when riding one between 4th Avenue and Church Avenue. In fact, I have family living near the Church Avenue F station, but I ride to any of the other stations that are served by the B35 bus, and transfer to that in order to avoid that part of the F line.
They don't even bother to read the signs. They just get off when they end up at Queensbridge and curse out the C/R.
It is exactly how people think. I remember before the R33s were retired, one weekend, during a GO, the "5" was only operating between 149th St-G.C. & Bowling Green. The "5" was only operating trains from the Woodlawn yard, namely R62s & 9200-9300 series R33MLs.
This R62 rolled into Grand Central, entirely signed up "5-Bowling Green" from front to back. The conductor made annoucements at every stop.
When the train arrived at Bowling Green and the conductor announced last stop, not only did the passengers not get off, they didn't even flinch-nada, nothing, zip.
The conductor had to keep flicking the lights on/off to get the passengers' attention. Those damn passengers had the nerve to get off the train and walk, in some cases, three cars to get to the conductor and curse him out for not making annoucements.
He even pointed to all of the correctly signed signs and they were still cursing him out.
A few weekends, the 5 was diverted to Times Square via express and the 3 was bumped to the local track. On one of those weekends, I boarded an R-33 5 train, signed properly, at 96th Street, along with a large crowd. Approaching Times Square, the C/R announced that it was the last stop. The woman behind me expressed bewilderment that the train was terminating at Times Square rather than the usual 14th Street.
When was she last on a 3 train that looked anything like that?
Prove it to me with some documentation.
Common sense tells you that the newer R46 which is more spacious and devoid of that screeching brake on the R32 is the better car. The R46 has been a staple on the F for years. No F rider asked for or wanted R32's.
-RJM
No, the Q train riders complained when the R40's arrived on the Brighton line in 10/97. They didn't appreciate the removal of the newest cars in the system to that point from their line. Not to be outdone, B riders complained about the R68's, especially those who were overweight.
David
Some riders probably have a preference for bench or bucket seating.
I don't know, you tell me. You claim passengers love the sleek appearance of the R-46 but since you can't back up that claim, I don't have to believe.
Keep contriving more fantasies that suit your tastes.
Only 1 out of approximately 25 trains I saw today on the (A) was an R32/38 (couldn't tell which, it was between stations).
Someone take them off, or I shoot the dog!
\\Julian
Sorry, this is an all-ages board ;)
\\Julian
Passengers don't care about too many of one car type or too few of another. They'll gladly take a set of BU gate cars as long as it moves.
On the other hand, if you're suggesting that there's too much service.... :-)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
We want Red, not Bland =) (or New... Newbirds?)
\\Julian
Smear-o-vision polarizer on front, uncomfortable seats, and visible decay all over... at least the 38s aren't held together with something resembling duct tape!
\\Julian
It will mean the end of the rail fan window on the A line,when the 160 get in....
Oh..the agony of it all...
Well, I'm ressurecting the challenge!
If you are interested in playing a softball game against the Straps state your intentions!
We will be meeting again July 31st, and/or August 7th. Most likely East River Park, which is a great field to hold a game. We've played there twice.
Form your team, get organized, do whatever!
We (I'm playing for their team, those who post on both sides are free to choose their side) challenge you!
I hope you guys accept the challenge, and I hope people from SubTalk who want to play show up. I'll be posting updates regarding the time, date, location etc.
:P
My concern (playing for the Straps team, sorry ;-) ) is if I'll have a game that day. I don't plan on it.
It's personal now!
SubwaySpot.com Vs. NYCRail.com!
ROFL
SAS
Isn't the average age of a Subtalker like 45 and the average age of a Strappie about 13?
Welcome to my killfile.
By the way: I'm coming back.
and I still post there all the time...because It's fun...
so should you.
-Broadway Buffer
WHUP THEIR BUTTS,S.T.....
Vince
Tell us the results if the game does go on.
I will be making a flyer and posting it on SubwaySpot.com with all the info.
All you need to know for now is that August 7th is the date. That is a Saturday.
I hope to see as many SubTalkers there as possible!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
someone please fill me in...
All the info
Thanks to Ed Levine for supplying the original paper copies!
-Dave
Thanks to Ed Levine for supplying the original paper copies!
-Dave
As to the question within the thread, the cars have always been configured as they are now: full cab on the #1 end, 1/3 cab on the #2 end. However, when they were new the cars could be operated from either end -- I rode several times with the #2 cab out. Nowadays the #2 cabs aren't used at all by crews, but there's equipment in there that would probably be very difficult (and expensive) to relocate.
David
D to Brighton!
David
til next time
The fare is $75 coach and $175 first class, it includes a box lunch and admission to the Danbury RR Museum.
Contact Metro-North Group slaes at 212-499-4398 for more info.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Truthfully, an announcement like this should be repeated a few times, and also listed in the Upcoming Events page.
Please send Dave Pirmann a note via Feedback so he can list it.
Metro-North will operate a rare mileage fantrip over the Beacon Line,
including a stopover at the Danbury Railway Museum on Sunday, September
12. You will also have the oportunity to ride (for first class fare) in
one of the ex Phoebie-Snow observation cars now used by the railroad
president.
=============================
Sept. 12, SUN: MTA Metro-North's Beacon Line Railfan Trip,departing
Grand Central Terminal (GCT) at 8:45 AM and traveling along the former New
York Central's scenic Hudson Line to Beacon, NY. From Beacon, the trip
will run east to Danbury, CT, via the little used former New Haven RR
Maybrook Line. The line passes through Beacon, Fishkill, Hopewell
Junction and along Whaley Lake in Dutchess County. The trip will include
a stop at the Danbury Railway Museum. On its return to Grand Central, the
train will travel south on the Danbury Branch, then west on the New Haven
mainline to GCT, arriving at 6:30 PM. The 200 mile trip will include
photo stops and runbys. Fare includes a commemorative ticket, an official
souvenir timetable and a box lunch. Tickets by reservation only.
Fare: adults $75, child (11 and under) $55. Limited First Class seating
is available in two of the former Erie Lackawanna Phoebe Snow
observation cars for $175. For tickets and information:
Metro-North Group Travel, 420 Lexington Ave., 9th Fl., New York, NY 10017.
Telephone: 212-499-4398, or e-mail: Groupsales@mnr.org
I hope to attend this once-in-a-lifetime trip, but I'm not sure.
Your pal,
Fred
David: I can't e-mail you directly. Please print your e-mail address here or e-mail me at RedbirdR33@hotmail.com.
Larry, RedbirdR33
BTW: My email is fashuttle-subtalk@yahoo.com and is the same address if you follow my instructions.
Enjoy!
Your pal,
Broke
Yeah, why do these people bring there children when they know there children might start acting up(IE: Bathroom ever so often, being hungry, crying, etc...), if I want to hear that, I'd goto a movie theater. ;)
In early June, about 100 photographers crowded onto Manhattan subway trains and snapped pictures of each other in protest of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority's proposed ban on photography in subways and other public transit.
Apparently the London Underground [subway} has its share of "issues," shall we say. It also has its share of wise-ass train conductors. Some of their primo comments were collected by the London Evening Standard:
Some of the best announcements
9 July 2004
"I am the captain of your train and we will be departing shortly. We will be cruising at an altitude of approximately zero feet, and our scheduled arrival time in Morden is 3.15pm. The temperature in Morden is approximately 15 degrees Celsius, and Morden is in the same time zone as Mill Hill East so there's no need to adjust your watches."
"This is the Line Control Room at Baker Street. The Bakerloo line is running normally today, so you may expect delays to all destinations."
"We will shortly be arriving at Waterloo, then I think we will carry right on through the Channel Tunnel and spend the weekend in Paris."
"May I remind you to take your rubbish with you. Despite the fact that you are in something that is metal, round, filthy and smells, this is a Tube train and not a bin on wheels."
"Your delay this evening is caused by the line controller suffering from elbow and backside syndrome, not knowing his elbow from his backside."
"We're sorry for the delay. This is due to the incompetence of the signal operators in the Aldgate area."
"Please note that the beeping noise coming from the doors means that the doors are about to close. It does not mean throw yourself or your bags into the doors."
"Ladies and Gentlemen, I do apologise for the delay to your service. I know you're all dying to get home, unless, of course, you happen to be married to my ex-wife, in which case you'll want to cross over to the westbound and go in the opposite direction."
"This is Victoria station. Please leave your valuables on the train and I will collect them at the end of my shift."
"Covent Garden has been closed due to overcrowding. Please alight at
Leicester Square and wander around aimlessly with your huge rucksacks until you get to your destination."
"I apologise for the delays to your service this evening. This is due to ...well, it's just a crap service, isn't it?"
Michael
Laughing in Washington, DC
Criticising the signalmen isn't really fair. More to blame are the builders of the Metropolitan Railway.
Neither the Metropolitan or the District ever particularly wanted to complete the Inner Circle, and if they had not, would anyone today really suggest that it should be built? I say make Aldgate East an island platform station and get rid of it altogether (and I'm a fairly frequent user).
Rebuilding Aldgate East might be hard though. Moving it 200yds east,in 1938, was difficult enough.
The Circle routing through the City is only of any use at all if you want to go to Liverpool Street (which if you're starting from Victoria is a big deal).
Its only major beneficial effect is that the Met and District aren't restricted by the low capacity (and demand) on the Upminster branch. Ideally, the Circle should be abolished, especially as the Glouc Rd - Hi Ken curve is of such little use (basically it's not worth it for going Vic - Pad even - that's quicker via Oxford Circus). Aldgate should close altogether, with the surplus Met trains being sent onto the Southern Region after Farringdon (might even give some life to the bloody Sutton Loop). The District Line's surplus trains have an obvious home: a Bishopsgate connector could be built and there you have it - Crossrail on the cheap - this is a District Line train to Shenfield.
I think....... Not!
Don't look for us to post your bail... or pay your funeral expenses.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why the hell would you do that? This site has images of 18 St (no Worth)stations.
And may I ask HOW you plan on doing this without getting hit by a 6 train or getting caught by the NYPD vandal squad? You saw NY Underground right?
Think about it.
-Chris
Both stations are very dark, covered with paint and are otherwise filthy and probably home to numerous breeds of vermin.
The Transit Museum used to sponsor fan trips to abandoned stations, but stopped doing so some years back due to liability concerns. Apparently someone tripped in one of the abandoned stations and threatened to sue.
-Chris
:-DIt looks like WrongInBS's evil plan hasn't worked!:-D
Welcome back!!!
http://home.nyc.rr.com/arti/NORTA/
Included are all 4 lines and 3 types of cars.
Canal to Cemeteries and City Park opened few months ago reverse- bustituting 42 and 45.
A trolley operator told me that Desire (82) is coming soon and has necessary funding. Turnouts and gauntlet track are on 267 and 269.
Interestingly shelters on Canal made in NY.
When I have more time I'll have a little report.
Arti
Arti
Mark
Nothing seems to bother them. The next story is a TRUE story that's almost hard to believe as New Yorkers.
I was riding the St Charles trolley, and we were on Charondelett St part of the line. We were putting along, and then all of a sudden the operator stopped, and said, "I'll be right back, folks". In the middle of the route he jumps out of his putting streetcar full of passengers, and just abandons the streetcar on the tracks. He ran across the street and into a "Subway Sandwich shop". We all figured that he must have had to go to the bathroom. Well, 5 minutes go by, and another streetcar leisurly catches up to us and stops, and then about 10 minutes more, and another one behind us and stops too. No one gets upset, no one gets annoyed. A few minutes later, the operator comes liesurly walking out of the store with a sandwich and a drink, opens the door, and we continue on our way....
I sat there with my mouth open in awe how no one on the streetcar was annoyed that they were delayed 10-15 minutes while the operator bought lunch! It was hysterical. Just try THAT in NY.
Yup, the first thing you must do in New Orleans is slow down, and then not let ANYTHING bother you. What a great city. I could never live there though, but it's sure a fun and interesting place to visit.
But you know something like that happened to me in Philly on the 34 trolley. At 46th and Baltimore, the operator got out, ran into a gas station, and got himself an ice cream bar. He stood outside the trolley and finished it before returning to the driver's seat. Now this was back when the Baltimore tracks were being replaced, and they were single-tracking along a section, so he may have had to stop and wait anyway.
Mark
Maybe New Orleans will be my next port of call in the US, having seen those great pictures.
I had a similar experience in February when I was there. The operators loved when you took pictures. You always got a wave or a ringing of the bells as they went by. (Unfortunately, they were still only testing on Canal St. I got some photos, but was not able to ride that line).
It such a fun city. As booge said, it's great railfanning by day, and party all night. Suprisingly, I was able to walk during the day to even take my photos, as Bourbon St is something like no where else - hard to survive! Not to mention, that my digital camera got a lot more use than just "train" photos for a change for a few nights - the beads were flowing at night if you know what I mean....some "things" are certainly better than "train" photos.
But of course, I got my fair share of the trolley photos (some are donated here on the New Orleans section of this site).
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
http://home.nyc.rr.com/arti/NORTA/P7100269.JPG
Now I guess thats what your talking about (Turnouts and gauntlet track are on 267 and 269) but I'm not sure. So are those provisions for the new line(s) or disused lines?
NORTA is going "back to the past". Streetcars are fun, buses are just buses.
What's really wild is that all the new "red" cars are built in the Carrollton Shops of the RTA. Building your cars in your own shop was somewhat common in the Nineteenth Century, but the practice died out.
RTA does it better than the off-the-shelf builders, plus New Orleans is the Big Easy, where fast just doesn't work.
It is possible for Mr. Von D's shops to build similar cars for other cities should someone want them to. How would a Peter Witt based on the N.O. body sound?
wayne
Arti
The fare is lowered to $1.25. Canal - Cemeteries ends at the Downtown end of Canal in the middle track, right before turning to Riverline, the track A at French Market is OOS. FM is served by City Park.
http://home.nyc.rr.com/arti/P7060116.JPG
http://home.nyc.rr.com/arti/P7060117.JPG
Arti
Arti
Arti
The Death and Life of the Canal Streetcar
Mark
Mark
That should have been "Nouveau" Orleans :)
The French colonial-era maps I've seen say Nouvelle Orelans, while the Spanish colonial maps are consistent and called it Nueva Orleans. Also, when I got a tourist visa from the French consulate in New Orleans, they wrote it "Nlle. Orleans."
Mark
I don't care what gender they assign; I can't wait until "Desire" returns as a streetcar line. Bussing that line-- with its worldwide recognition-- was right up there with the destruction of the old Penn Station. A travesty. Europe loves its history. We can't destroy ours fast enough. At least Jackie O. saved Grand Central.
Even "obviously sexed" words can defy reason. It's really quite amusing that in Latin, "mentula" is feminine and "cunnus" masculine, despite obvious expectations of the contrary.
It should be pointed out that the line was bustituted in the same year Tennessee Williams's play A Streetcar Named Desire debuted, 1955 or 56...I can't remember exactly. So it only became world-famous after it had already been bustituted, ironically enough.
That said, I think bustituting the Desire streetcar was a bad idea whether or not it was world-famous! I can't wait until it's running again.
Mark
Th play was 1947, the film 1951.
Another French word for old is vieux, so we could talk of "Vieux Orleans" and "Vieux Carre."
Mark
Surely "Vieille Orléans"?
Arti
Arti
Last time I was at the Audubon Zoo in New Orleans the information at one of the animal cages listed the average annual humidity in The Big Easy as 84%. For comparison, the sign also noted that this was the same average humidity as Bangkok.
That was the summer I lived in Baton Rouge. When I walked outside after being in an air-conditioned building my glasses would fog up. Needless to say, whenever I hear people in this part of the country complain about 50% humidity, I just shake my head...
Mark
Mark
By the way, New Orleans' St. Charles Line is probably the last place in the U.S.A. where you can still ride with open windows -- and I mean wide open! -- in regular service.
At 10:30 am the excursion train will operate to 59th Street/Columbus Circle, Track A-3, where guests will board.
At 10:40 am the train will proceed via the “A” Line to Rockaway Park, and lunch. The excursion train will lay-up as needed.
After lunch, the excursion train will make three round trips to Howard Beach, returning to Rockaway Park.
From Rockaway Park, the excursion train will operate to Far Rockaway.
From Far Rockaway, the excursion train will operate via the “A” Line to 59th Street/Columbus Circle, and end.
Excursion train lays-up in 207th Street Yard.
I presume everyone knows from the last MOD trip, where the lunch spots are at Rockaway Park.
But I will enlighten you anyway, there is a lunchonette next door to the stationhouse. Walk to the right for a diner and Wendys. Walk to the left for a pizzeria.
The passengers were never told why were waiting, sort of like the fiasco at 57th.
Your pal,
dinero
-Chris
They serve ice cream and italian ices on the windowsill, right?
-Chris
LAME!
I hope Sunday's trip (as wet as it might be) will be over the BMT Eastern Division. There is more outdoor sections there.
I'm looking forward to experiencing the ride in these cars that haven't been out of the museum in a very long time.
I picked Saturday, just in case something unexpected goes wrong & they have to pull the BUs to service them some more (i.e. cancel the Sunday trip).
This happened on the first Red Bird trip last year, i.e. they had to use the service fleet of R-33 from the Bronx on our rainy trip in June.
One of the Saturday trips ran Corona Redbirds instead of the planned museum train, though.
--Mark
I'll long remember them pushing all the lights on Broadway & said that I'll bet they never be operated at that speed ever again for the rest of their lives :-(
I might just save my money for next Saturday's MOD stip, and hope for the BMT Southern or Eastern Division lines.
That's what I'm thinking. I knew I wasn't going on Saturdays trip because I have a prior engagement, but the first thing I thought was, "Good, at least that gets the Rockaways out of the way" if by some chance I can make it next weekend.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Rockaways route, but man, it seems every trip goes there lately.
Hopefully one of the next week ones will be along the SOuthern Division, if by some chance I can make it - anything but the Rockaways again! I didn't order tickets so don't even know if I am going next week, but knew I wasn't going this week.
til next time
in fact,it's lost more mileage than any other city....
the 3RD,MYRTLE,JAMAICA[partial],FULTON[partial],Culver[partial],Worlds fair...and so on...
the additions since 56...11th street cut,Dyre ave,Rockaway,Chyrstie,Archer,63 st.not much in mileage.....
The trackage gained since 1955 has been minimal. The 11th Street Cut is basically a connector between BMT and IND tracks - its not a separate line. The Dyre Avenue and Rockaway Lines were obtained from other transit systems and were not built by the TA. Chrystie, Archer and 63 were all part of the "New Routes" plan produced by the MTA in 1968. The plan actually called for far more trackage than what was actually built.
Other cities built a lot of track and stations in the 1960s-70s and took full advantage of federal matching $$. NYC, meanwhile, was going broke.
Your point about the 11th Street cut is correct. But it improved connectivity (more below).
However, not everything NYC did was bad. Consider that the 6th Av IND subways' express tracks, installed in the 1960s, are pretty important today in assuring that this heavily used trunk provides good service to commuters. And we did get four new stations on the 6th Av line since the 1960s (57 Street was added, in the 1960s, then the other three since 1982) and additional carrying capacity from Queens.
The other additions improved connectivity (integration) of services - new transfer points in the subway or to the LIRR, to an airport service (AirTrain), and so on. On a large system like NYC, the addition of transfer points is very important. Even the Franklin Shuttle's reconstructio added one (opening a passageway to commuters which previously could only be used by police). Other transfer points added were the 53/Lex between IRT and IND (that one wasn't there in the 1950's, if I recall correctly).
And then there was the rebuilding of the whole subway itself. I can't say it enough times: bringing the subway back to a state of good repair and overhauling the logistical systems at MTA were the most important things that could ever get done.
Now take a step back and look at the region as a whole: Did the Newark subway and HBLR extensions help NYC? Yes, by making it easier to use mass transit to get around the whole region. NJ Transit's new rail stations at Newark Airport and at the new transfer point for midtown direct service were also of direct benefit to Manhattan.
I'm also glad that the MTA has finally realized that old tilework needs to be cleaned and repaired wherever possible, not covered up and forgotten. The BMT Broadway line stations look so much better now that the 1970's refrigerator tiles have been removed.
In terms of route miles, if you go back even further, I am pretty sure that 1938 would be the peak year. Between 1938 and 1956, you gained the Rockaway line and the 6th Ave subway and some IND extensions, but you lost the 2nd Ave. El, the 3rd Ave El below 149 St., the 6th Ave El, the 9th Ave El in Manhattan and the Bronx, and the Lexington Ave El, the 5th Ave. El, and the bulk of the Fulton Street El in Brooklyn.
This webpage has photos and timetables of the subways and commuter trains in Tokyo!
this webpage has timetables, maps, and rolling stock photos of Tokyo subway and commuter trains.
Thanks for that link. The site has a comprehensive set of maps (to scale), train photos, travel times and distances.
The one limitation is that it only covers the 23 wards of Tokyo, so that the surrounding prefectures are not included.
R-32.
The Budd Company has shut down its last Philly plant on Hunting Park Av (or is finishing that process) and is relocating everybody to Michigan, to be closer to its primary customers, the auto makers.
Budd is still the largest independent maker of auto parts.
R-32.
I'm not certain of this, but I believe Budd is now a division of a German company (Thyssen?)
In order to survive in railcars, you have to either be selling to both US and foreign markets, or you need a substantial presence in freight and passenger rail (or both).
Note that ANF Industrie, the French subsidiary carbuilder of Quebec-based Bombardier, makes both freight and passenger railcars, and sells both all over the world.
By the way, check out the MTA Maryland's official website. Does anyone have more pictures of their LRVs in the Maryland flag paint scheme shown in the picture at the top? That's a neat paint scheme. It reminds me of the Texas flag paint scheme that the Trinity Railway Express was using on its commuter trains running between Dallas and Ft. Worth. Of course these schemes work because TX and MD both have cool flags. That wouldn't really work with the flags of a lot of states.
Mark
Mark
Personally, I like the old scheme better, the but the flag idea is interesting.
Mark
Miami and Baltinmore split an order from Budd in 1982.
Baltimore got a second order from Budd/Transit America in 1985.
Neither system has bought anything from Breda.
Mark
Atlanta:
Washington:
Mark
* ryan
Ben F. Schumin :-)
This would imply that Baltimore's most recent order also came from Budd but I am not certain.
Atlanta - MARTA - cars made by Franco-Belge, Breda, Hitachi.
Miami - MDT - cars made by Budd [split with Baltimore]
Washington - WMATA - cars made by Rohr, Breda, CAF, Alsthom [coming soon].
It should be NONE of the current fleet. R-32s and R-38s had their LOCAL/EXP lights and marker lights removed at overhaul.
Is there any reason trains are different? Is it perhaps they are not required to have standardized position lights and the color is simply an arbitrary design?
Yes! And both of the lights were never lit simultaneously, and trains are not boats or airplanes. You can tell if a train is moving toward you by the presence of headlights.
If you look at such a train from the rear, the green and red LOCAL/EXP lights will be flipped so that they appear in the "correct" positions.
Ministers Tighten Grip on Railway
Mark
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
At least they're better than ARRIVA. I really couldn't believe it when I saw ARRIVA's latest trick to make sure no-one rides their buses - in the evening, there are 7 buses an hour I can get out of the South of the centre of Leicester on 6 different routes. Guess what - yes, they've now rewritten the timetable so that 4 of them go at 10 past and 3 of them at 20 to. Absolutely sodding useless. When they did that to me, I was actually glad there was a First bus that would take me halfway where I wanted to be up the London Rd. Even walking after catching that, no ARRIVAs passed me.
I must agree, however, that in general First suffer from backside and elbow syndrome. And I never thought I'd say this, but they do rather make Travel West Midlands look like they know how to run a public transport service (although that's really based on running an almost identical network to the one WMPTE used to run).
Closer to my home, Eastern National buses to Wivenhoe station were always timed so that they would not comfortably connect with the train to London, thus forcing hundeds of University of Essex students and staff to travel all the way to Colchester station instead (much greater distance). First used to run trains from Wivenhoe to London. They had a good reputation for Great Eastern services, but that was largely down to the talents of the local management rather than any intelligence from those idiots from Aberdeen.
I hope to get pictures soon. I applied for a new MBTA photo permit (required MBTA police "investigation"), and they say it takes a few weeks. There's no way I'm going to photo there without it... the place is crawling with security forces!
Fortunately, no one was injured, and it wasn't part of the station vault: just suspended acoustic ceiling tile and some recessed lighting fixtures. The cause is still undetermined, but some are sure to scream that it's due to inadequate inspection and maintenance. Naturally, heated debate about funding for Metro is sure to follow. I hope those who control the purse strings will see the light and not just deadlock in arguments -- the last thing we need is for injuries or deaths from anything of a more serious nature.
An expert measured sound levels louder than a pneumatic drill and advised regular passengers to consider wearing ear protection.
Professor Deepak Prasher, head of University College London's Audiology unit, took the measurements on four Victoria Line journeys. LU said it was aware of the problem but it was unlikely to affect passengers. Prof Prasher found that the noise peaked at 118dB, which is louder than a pneumatic drill. The average level was between 88-89dB, which is above the 85dB legal limit where a workplace would be required to provide ear protection.
Prof Prasher: "I am shocked by the levels that we actually recorded. They were peaking at 118dB which is quite horrendous. The squealing and so on near Stockwell and Pimlico is quite astonishing really. It's the equivalent of a big jack hammer going, or a jet engine taking off in the distance. Although the journey times for most people are going to be short, this is a cumulative damage. If you regularly commute and use that line, then you need to seriously think about some form of ear protection."
Prof Prasher then carried out an experiment where a student's hearing was tested before and after a journey along the same section of the Victoria Line. It found that hearing sensitivity fell immediately after the journey.
A Tube train driver, speaking on condition of anonymity, told BBC London that he always wears ear protection. "I would advise passengers to do the same, it really is very noisy indeed, and they shouldn't put their hearing at risk."
Dr Olivia Carlton, LU's head of Occupational Health, said: "Certainly the Underground is noisy and it is something that we are very aware of. We monitor our own staff's hearing on a regular basis, and we've looked at the hearing of train operators and we haven't actually ever demonstrated noise induced hearing loss. Although I would agree that the Underground is noisy, and particularly in certain areas, it seems rather unlikely that our customers hearing would be damaged because their journey time is much shorter than our train operators. On the Victoria Line we are aware that there is a problem and we have got a programme planned."
END.
I think 14th Street might come close at the end of the platform.
Seriously, you would have loved the West End Line in the early 1908s and the "Big Screechers" straphanger group that measured trains at over 100dB.
At what dB can hearing damage occur? 85? Any audiologists care to comment?
--Mark
What was that you said ??
(After many years in the railway industry my hearing is not too good ! )
:-)
wayne
wayne .
wayne
wayne
The new map includes all the major transport projects planned for the next ten years. These are:
Crossrail
East London Line extension
Thameslink 2000
DLR extensions
Metropolitan Line extension
Piccadilly Line extension
Croydon Tramlink
Cross River Transit
East London Transit
Greenwich Waterfront Transit
West London Transit
The Mayor said: “Improved transport infrastructure is vital for London to maintain the international competitiveness upon which our prosperity depends. This map shows how London’s transport system will look in 2016 if we make the essential investments in the city’s transport infrastructure. These investments are necessary to sustain London’s growth and prosperity and will enhance the economic growth prospects and productivity of the entire United Kingdom. This map represents the future of London’s transport system. It shows what we need to do to ensure our city’s future success.”
Research carried out for the Mayor's London Plan indicates that London's population is projected to grow from 7.2 million to 8.1 million by 2016. "This is a transport system which will cope with London's population in 2016", the Mayor said.
http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/transport/transportmap2016.jsp
refers
Frankly, I think that London and Paris and other big european cities should be knocked down and re-built with some sort of rational comprehensive plan with grid streeting and a trunk line subway system.
It’s an ambitious plan. It will be interesting to see how much of this is actually built!
John
The Sutton Loop most definitely exists (and is arguably totally useless in its current configuration)!
I see they've dropped the idea of Crossrail taking over the Central line Hainault loop service.
That was a Chelney plan not a Crossrail one, which sometimes is confusingly referred to as "Crossrail 2".
I notice they also don't plan to have Crossrail be able to access Heathrow 4; an H-4-bound passenger on Crossrail would have to change at H-1-2-3; change trains to backtrack to Hatton Cross and then change again back to H-4.
Crossrail would replace the new Heathrow Connect service. This would eventually go to Heathrow T5. It can't go to T4 as the tunnel's single track and at capacity with the Expresses. In fact, T4 might become freight only once T5 opens. Oh and bear in mind that Heathrow Express is free within the Airport, so there's already an airport shittle!
The double brown (Silverlink) and double blue (Thameslink) are commuter rail. The map should have shown all commuter lines or none of them. Instead, it shows just those two, which may be an indication of the Mayor's political ambitions.
Should the tramlines be on the Underground map? Tramlink is not, and probably never will be, so why all these others?
Obviously, Richmond on the District and Watford on the Met shouldn't be on there at all. The tramlines belong on the quadrant bus maps.
With a bit more care at Holborn, the Kingsway tram route could have been improved.
Piccadilly Line to Uxbridge points away from its destination at one point.
etc
etc
And what is Silverlink Metro doing there at all. Its not TfL funded, is not proposed to be, and has no route enhancements in this scheme.
Very true. However, on the London Connections map, the curves would look right.
With a bit more care at Holborn, the Kingsway tram route could have been improved.
They've generally made the area inside the Inner Circle a total mess for the dubious virtue of making Crossrail look like a straight horizontal rather than the Central Line. However, I do really like how Paddington looks on this map.
And what is Silverlink Metro doing there at all. Its not TfL funded, is not proposed to be, and has no route enhancements in this scheme.
It would, however, make sense for the DC Lines (and maybe the NLL - perhaps running it through with the ELL) to become Underground. This is especially true as it would be horribly misleading to leave Harrow and Wealdstone and Watford Junction on the map with a white space in between.
Is the Tramlink omitted from the current Undergroud map because there's only the one connection at Wimbledon?
On-street running is the key here. Trams are at the mercy of traffic. Many rail advertisements used to capitalise on the "avoid the jams" catchline. Tramlink cannot do that.
What I meant to say was I don’t think this map (or a variation) will be used as a map for customers when the time comes. Its use is for Ken to promote the new lines and services.
New line proposals should be made to look like inevitable gap-fillers, opening up routes never possible before. A good fantasy map should look good. Ken wants this map to make people say "wow, TfL has got some great stuff planned. the British government had better pay a share or there will be trouble". Instead, the first response of most people might well be "yuck, this is horrible, I hope they never build this confusing mess"
New line proposals are difficult to turn into reality. Crossrail has already been turned down once. These plans will be scrutinised carefully by people who don't want to fund them. A confused map gives the impression of confused planning.
While the Docklands Light Railway and Jubilee Line extensions are quite impressive in and of themselves, UndergrounD needs to be careful about overextending itself. They could end up starting lots of projects and finishing none if the pounds sterling are not there to pay for it.
And then of course, recall that London UndergrounD never got the sort of thorough rehabilitation that the NYC subway system got. I think they need to look at their state of repair very seriously.
The government and the private sector still cannot agree about who will what for Crossrail (estimated cost Ł10 billion).
One question: are the tiled name tablets on the walls at Atlantic Avenue 1907 originals or are they reproductions?
wayne
From NY1...
MTA Mulls More Service Cuts, Higher Fares To Close Budget Gap
JULY 15TH, 2004
Straphangers could be facing more service cuts and higher fares as soon as next year.
The financially-troubled MTA is scheduled to release its budget in two weeks.
The New York Post reports the agency is considering slashing overnight bus and subway service to close its massive budget gap.
They may also change the price of discount MetroCards.
The agency faces a $540 million budget gap next year and deficits of over a billion dollars for the next two years.
Last year the MTA closed 62 station booths and cut 846 jobs, it also raised bus and subway fares to $2.
The usual scare tactics used to facilitate far less drastic spending cuts or it's laying the foundation of a future fare hike.
Some programs that the MTA should rethink
$47 million to convert one manhattan depot to CNG - The MTA has already put out a feeler to the community to place hybrid buses at that depot instead of CNG. The operating cost savings and a lower cost to convert the depot to hybrids is needed
running shorter trains overnights and weekends where it makes sense, Spend dollars to properly lable platforms and install digital CCTV were needed; There is a new CCTV technology that is now avaialbe that deliver the needed power through one Cat-5 ethernet cable. It is costing the MTA $600k a station to install cctv to cover platforms on the L
Elininating all secoundary tooken booths; move to an rfid based metrocard for monthly unlimted holder reducing turnstyle maitance; Enhance metrocard vendor program by allowing them to encode metrocards thus reducing MVM usaage. The two week metrocard preposed will both MVM usage as some weekly card buyers will opt for the two week cardchnolgy and increase cost per ride as some monthly riders will buy the more costly 2-week card
Roll out Automated bus monitoring(scheduled for 2007) I have been researchitng currently avaible technologies. Current technoly uses gps plus a variety of other methods in tandem to eliniated the problems of buses in the hudson river. They use gps, cellular networks, rfid. This technolgy will eliminate the need for 3/4 of the current dispatchers and all the ride checkers in the bus operation plus reduce fuel costs and improve bus line on-time service
Add in better oversight proceedures and you can cut hundreds of millions of $$ out of the budget. The Debt service(interest on bonds issued) is through the roof, they need to get a handle on these guys. It is nice to see the MTA is getting is butt in gear increasing ad revenues.
The mta should look into the following money making ventures
1) Having a third party company install ATM machines in all stations
2)Increasing deveopment around it's key stations increasing ridership
3)do a better job of renting out MTA owned property around stations.
At the current pace the deficit will get larger and larger, the debt service and pension libilities is what the major issues is
If you had the time to count up 29 spelling and punctuation errors in the 5 minutes and 51 seconds between when voiceofreason made his post and the time you made yours, it doesn't sound like you tried very hard to understand his points at all. (Sorry if the possibility that the preceding is a run-on sentence offends you).
You ought to go back and try a little harder. He makes some very important observations about the future problems at the TA/MTA.
I agree with the notion of cancelling all Metrocard discounts. In reality, few people actually pay $2 a ride. I also agree with the concept of eliminating every manned secondary token booth. There's no need to have 2 at Woodhaven Blvd on the J line. I'd also like to suggest another potential cost-savings measure, which won't be popular or feasible: salary cuts. Everyone in the private sector ually gets hit hard when the business they work for isn't doing well. Civil servants shouldn't be exempt.
Civil servants (knowingly or unknowingly) trade away the benefits and downsides of private sector employment (bonuses, perks, merit-based pay increases, mass layoffs, pay cuts) for job security and union representation. It's unreasonable -- to me at least -- to ask that they share only in the downside of the economy. Consistent with that approach, I was very much against the unions desire for anything more than a 3% or so wage increase at the last negotiation.
If you require pay cuts during down cycles, you'll attract only the lowest of the low (well, and a few foamers who just can't stay away) as your employee base.
At the end of the day, I think the MTA and the unions will probably need to re-negotiate the pension plans that their retirees are getting and probably request a bailout from the state. From my albeit limited reading on this subject, it appears the cost of pension plan was grossly underestimated as a result of overly optimistic assumptions on future interest rates and investment returns.
Everytime they cry foul about money....I say go cry to the state,and tell them to cough up more cash,or the Feds.
they got more than enough if they can send Billions overseas to IRAQ...
Hevesi Pulled admitted that the statement was inacurite when questioned on NY1
The MTA had two budget projections
one where they refinanced bonds at a lower interest rate, extending the terms(more interest paid over the long term, lower payment now)
and a secound budget where they did not refinace the bonds.
The bond refinacing freed up $500 million this year but created a bigger liability down the road.
GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT
A distance-based fare would be more politically feasible.
The elimination of the discounts though is something that could be done, but I think that raising the base fare is better.
Cut the waist not the rider bennifits
Remember the MTA business is moving people not protecting antiquated business practices supported by the unions
Maybe the Atkins Diet will help.
No it would not, dropping all discounts will and creating a flat $1.50 fare will drive down ridership, increase operating costs as people buy smaller quantities at a time requiring more MVM's and fare sales points.
Pull out the % of extra rides that occur because you do not have to pay extra for them and the average fare is somewht higher then $1.26
Fewer people using the subway means more traffic on the roads
The $1.26 average fare is a little misleading. People take more rides if they don't have to pay additional for each ride. In the end is the person paying less for the services. Most of the time NO.
Salary Cuts, now you are getting a little silly. If the MTA was run better it would result in lower ovetime costs as stupid clasuse designed to run up overtime costs get removed
I read somewhere, that NYC is doing something like that for it's vechicles. I doubt MTA can use it though.
Arti
It just won't work. Why? because making the necessary upgrades, like RFID for the turnstyles, will be listed in the budget that the TA will say needs to be offset by... surprise... raising the fare.
And even after the completeion of said work and the TA has been "repaid", do you really think the TA will say "OK, that's done, we'll now CUT fares."
Right.
> reduces rediculous wastes and ineffeciencies
They'll will never reduce the number of managers. :-P
In addition, the riders frankly hated the short trains. Even today, the riders on the G train (the shortest regular service line in system aside from shuttles) complain about having to run down the stairs and platforms to catch the trains when they decide to show up. The short trains cause the riders to hold the doors more often which affects the motors that control the doors - hence more trains out of service.
This issue has been looked at before, and the answer is that short trains for full length lines with heavy night-time ridership is not the "cost savings" it appears to be. Remember the main components of expenses for the TA is salaries, and these short trains still have a motorman and a conductor. OPTO is not and can to be done on full length lines with heavy night-time ridership with the current consists of trains. The ridership will not allow "driver-less" subway trains at any time of the day or night - no matter how good the automation claims to be.
Give the riders the choice between a fare hike and "driver-less" subway trains, and you may be surprised by what riders choose.
With that line of reasoning, New Yorkers should demand computer operated trains after each train wreck that is the operator's fault.
Most lines are crowded in Manhattan on weekends. Service is less frequent than weekday middays but ridership is greater.
NYC has had a big economic downturn. Should MTA personnel share in the pain? I certainly don't call for them to get pay cuts, but maybe yes they do need to share in the pain to the extent of not getting the pay raises that most of them deserve.
If we want an economy again, then everybody in the private sector should take an immediate 50% pay cut like *I* did ... :)
Ugh, so what are they going to do, make the late night wait for the Brooklyn bound A 60 minutes as opposed to 55? :-P
Both the magnitude of the "budget gaps" and the TA's response strains credulity.
Consider the following data from the National Transportation Database for 2002.
Total Operating Funds Expended $4,001,270,473
Total Operating Expenses $3,860,868,715
for a cash-on-cash SURPLUS of almost $140 million!!
So, in 3 years they are predicting a change of $680 million in their fortunes, DESPITE a 33% FARE INCREASE!!!
What about the TA's response? Suppose the burdened rate for a TA employee were $100K. Then it would require the terminating 5,400 employees to address the projected budget gap. How will reducing night service help. They don't use anywhere near 5,400 employees to operate night service.
David
Just how does the TA get its "capital monies"? Are they outright grants or are some of these monies the proceeds from bond issues? If there are proceeds from bond issues, then who pays the bondholders and by what mechanism?
N.B. I tried to stimulate some discussion on the exact nature of the "budget gap" by my post on this thread. I do not believe that there is a serious cash-on-cash shortfall on operations, based on the TA's recent history.
When the MTA was formed, additional "air conditioned subway cars" were purchased, but the lion's share of the new public authority transportation bond went to the Long Island Railroad to begin replacing major portions of the infrastructure without the requisite "fare hikes" to pay for it. The suburban voter was a critical asset to the party in power at the time (Rockefeller) and rocking the boat with the necessary costs of new purchases and massive rehabilitation was a non-starter. MTA had already assumed major debt on NYCTA with major car purchases, and so funds were not available for maintenance of the system itself. LIRR "customers" sacked the budget with the justification of "look, you got air conditioned trains, stop whining."
Recently, the subway system received a large order of "new tech" and of course, D'Amato willing, the 160's will be coming in. MTA funding has always been a history of robbing Peter to pay Paul, and with that nice juicy chunk of bridge and tunnel money under the belt helps immensely. Now LIRR and Meatball North are receiving THEIR new toys, all at a time when the money just isn't there and the feds ain't kicking in squat ... these binges and purges though are historic with the MTA and we're in one of those major financial bleeding cycles of cash and bonds that resulted in the decay of the system previously owing to all the debt service after a period when the money HAD been going into the invisible things like rails and signals.
I'm only saying what I'm saying though in order to encourage more discussion of all this - the forest of the MTA is so much larger than what we see ... and there's many mouths to feed.
And THIS might be interesting as well as fodder for the discussion, since I find these financials interesting from a political angle:
http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=15271
Group to N.Y. MTA: Repairs over expansions
NEW YORK - The MTA should spend nearly 75 percent of its capital
budget on maintaining the quality of its buses and trains, an
influential transportation group says in a new report, according to
New York Newsday.
Much of the rest of the money should go to funding the Second
Avenue subway and bringing the Long Island Rail Road to Grand
Central Terminal, the Regional Plan Association suggests.
"The system that was Exhibit A for a dysfunctional New York in the
1970s is now a leading symbol of its success," the report states.
"Continued rebuilding is vital. A return to disinvestment will result in
gradual erosion of this asset and a lost opportunity to support a
changing, expanding economy."
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority is scheduled on July 29 to
release a draft of its five-year capital plan. It must then face a
lengthy approval process that is not expected to end before the fall.
The plan, which covers spending between 2005 to 2009, will be
between $18 and $22 billion, said MTA spokesman Tom Kelly.
Kelly declined to comment on the Regional Plan Association's
suggestions.
The report advises the MTA against relying heavily on bonds to pay
for its major purchases.
MTA Chairman Peter Kalikow has said the agency is looking to dip into
new funding streams.
(This item was printed July 16, 2004, in Newsday.)
So a little background is necessary here. First the historicals. Al D'Amato was once the "Tax Assessor" for Nassau county, and worked his way up politically by cutthroat politics and scandals a plenty as any Nassau county "3 percenter" will tell you. But of most significance, it was Al D'Amato who CREATED Joe Bruno *and* George Elmer Pataki ... and now with his puppets fully implanted, guess who's making money off the MTA and the state as a whole? Ayup. Al D'Amato is the puppeteer behind the scenes that has worked diligently on making New York what it once was again - an arctic region, covered with ice.
NOBODY gets on the MTA board without Al's explicit thumbs up or down. No subway or railroad cars get purchased without Al D'Amato getting his personal piece of the action. Alstom, Bombardier, Kawasaki - no matter WHO gets the contract, Al D'Amato made it happen. Whatever Paturkey or Bruno do, it's ENTIRELY in Al D'Amato's control, operating 2/3 of our government as his own personal "supermajority." :(
read all about it:
Historical book on "Senator Pothole"
(http://www.brainiacbooks.com/si/1119W308378.html)
Al D'Amato - lobbyist
(http://nydailynews.com/front/story/208968p-180120c.html)
$500,000 a dance - the MTA buys new headquarters
(http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0329/barrett.php)
Al D'Amato's snazzy digital subway signs
(http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0314/barrett.php)
Kalikow - yep, own3d by D'Amato
(http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/features/n_10108/index1.html)
Al D'Amato's vision: LIRR East Side Access
(http://www.tstc.org/bulletin/19970214/mtr11404.htm)
Al D'Amato owned TWU and Sonny Hall as well
(http://www.pww.org/article/view/2869/1/135/)
If billions weren't borrowed for repairs, the MTA could afford the expansions. The portion of the SAS they are actually looking to fund would cost about $1 billion in additional new state/local money. Compared with the $3 billion in additional state/local money for East Side Access.
The point is, if subway cars last 40 years you need to buy an average of 162 per year (converting the 75 footers to 60 foot equivalents). If they last 50, you need to buy an average of 130 per year. The same can be said of station renovations, signal system replacements, bus purchases, etc. You don't mortgage yourself to the hilt for 30 years to pay for five years of ongoing normal replacement. Fund those things the right way, and you can afford to borrow for the expansions.
But the main thrust here is that the person I answered claimed that the 63rd Street Connector was a waste of money, but he didn't say what made it a waste. I'm waiting for an answer on that one.
David
URL=http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/6thave/
Frankly, I always get a good laugh out of people who deride a newly completed subway line. The attitude behind it is "all those guys at MTA are morons and I could have done a much better job if they hired me to decide."
I don't see this being any exception.
I suspect THAT was their point. 53rd has certainly lost service ... and the G train silliness is another argument as to what a joke 63rd is - aside from those who used to commute by sky of course. But I can see the point - 63rd would have been a contender if only there were soemthing it connected to beyond "pre-existing" subway lines ...
Nonsense. Very myopic of you, actually. The Connector opened badly needed service to a densely settled Roosevelt Island and increased total carrying capaciity toManhattan. It also improved local service to Manhattan and subway coverage of 6th Avenue. There is no redundancy there at all.
What it did not do (but could still do in future) is open new areas of Queens to subway service. That is regrettable, but there is nothing preventing the TA from building a diversion off the tunnel in future (it was supposed to have one, after all).
"53rd has certainly lost service "
No it hasn't. It replaced one express service with a local service, which was important for patrons of the many local satations in Queens who were being underserved. There are still a lot of people who don't know how to best use a local and an express train. David Greenberger (David of Broadway) has posted some excellent primers on the subject. Please read them.
:0)
No it hasn't. It replaced one express service with a local service, which was important for patrons of the many local satations in Queens who were being underserved. There are still a lot of people who don't know how to best use a local and an express train. David Greenberger (David of Broadway) has posted some excellent primers on the subject. Please read them.
Errr... yes, it has. E+F=30tph, vs E+V=24tph. In other words, stations on E53rd St have lost 20% of their service.
That's in an ideal sense. What the connector has done is insulate Queens from disaster in the event of a service disruption, but providing an alternate route to Manhattan. Now that the IND has the oldest signal systems on the network, that may prove important in the next couple of decades.
Age of the signal system != reliability.
If properly maintained, the older signal equipment is very rugged
and will not fail. If properly maintained! Trust the signal
geeks on this one, not the suits.
I remind you that a recent "disaster" on the QB line was caused
not by the 1930s-vintage signal equipment, but by the ca 2001
QBPMT project.
The MTA's current budget issue is a result of funding a large majority of it's capitol projects with revenue bonds. The cost of the debt service(intrest payment) is mounting resulting in a large shortfall vs fare revenue/state.city funding and MTA bridges and tunnel subsidies.
A large part of the problem is that the MTA has been very slow to spend it's capitol monies on projects that reduce it's operating expenes. Those projects that had the potential to reduce operating expenses such as AFC/Metrocard program have had key components such as clossing now unnneeded token booths blocked by union propoganda.
All this LIRR crap is bunk for a few reasons.
- THe Lirr and Metro North pump in Billions of dollars in revenue into the city and state in the form retaining high paying jobs in NYC who's employees spend heavily and YES RIDE THE BUSES AND SUBways generatin g addional revenues for NYCT that would not otherwise exist.
It may have been true in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s that people who held high paying jobs felt a need to live outside the city, but that isn't true today -- except for parents, due to the city's schools. In fact, according to the 2000 census, a higher share of white people in NYC held college degrees than in the suburbs. Blacks and Latinos who are employed and have skills, in contrast, are still leaving the city. Given the quality of schools in the neighborhoods where they live, I can't blame them.
A good transportation system is key because people's jobs are mobile and because two people in a family often work. Even if a husband and wife are lucky enough to find jobs in the same area, and can live in that area, sooner or later one will end up with a new job that requires transportation.
Suburbanites bring huge benefits to the city.
City workers equally bring huge benefits to the suburbs. The economies of White Plains and Stamford would be crippled without MNCR. All the other towns along MNCR also have sizeable numbers of commuters who get off there in the morning to go to work. The reverse commuter local trains on the Harlem line can often be SRO between Bronxville and Woodlawn.
I have lived in NYC for the last 23 years and would really prefer to work in NYC, but have only managed to do so for 13 of those 24 years. If it weren't for first rate MNCR service, I'd be adding myself to the crowds driving every day.
Capitol bonds get repaid with operating income unless the feds or state kick in some money
David
Posted on:7/15/04 12:15:08 PM
Due to a track problem north of Dyckman Street, northbound (1) trains are running express from 207th Street to Van Cortlandt Park-242nd Street station until further notice.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
I wanted to ask here before I bothered his mom.
There must be some guy out there in love with orange Q's. This is the third time one has been seen this month, I think.
Note: I am not accusing or even suggesting this is the work of DQ BrightonLine.
-Broadway Buffer
Thank you.
-Chris
LET IT GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GET A LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't talk to me or mention me anymore either!
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
What I'm trying to say is that you can't accuse me of anything more than you can accuse vengence of doing. He acted just as stupid as me if not more in that thread.
As for you, I don't know what else to say, only that you're wrong.
Stop working with vengence to get me off this board, cuz that's what he has been doing to me since the first time I ever posted, and it's not going to work, so give up now, cuz you won't win. If you don't like me than don't talk to me or about me. In other words, stay out of my damn business.
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
what do you say we call a truce...??
Im willing to cut you some slack if you will to accept it..kool?
You don't like Vengence? I think its on the money...
I spell it like for reasons....
I like 'vengence', but I just don't understand the spelling of it as you pointed out.
-Broadway Buffer
So chill man..I'm okay with you hangin around....you never know..we may become fast friends...if you let it happen...
-Broadway Buffer
Umm, try over 6,000,000.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why do you have such a love for trouble?
Changing rollsigns to confuse people, and now since you no longer do it, you want to start fights here.
I think the furniture is there, but its arranged in the wrong rooms.
-Broadway Buffer
Bill "Newkirk"
D to BrightoN!
A buffer although I've heard it referred to as other names is the thing at the end of the line.
I know this sounds silly, but when I was little and I saw a show called Thomas the Tank Engine and I remember the narrator always referring to the buffer at the end of the line or wherever it happened to be. So since I always remembered that I would refer to them as buffers. Maybe it's a British term, cuz it was a British show.
The real meaning of it would be the buffer on Broadway. And the only buffer on Broadway (I think the only one at least) is at the Canal St Station on the 2 tracks btw the local ones.
So thats what a Broadway Buffer is.
-Broadway Buffer
-Chris
-Broadway Buffer
-Chris
Oh wait, you want to know whats behind it? I got no clue. :P
Never expect to see R32 returning to N, well guess what? Its backs!!! And I spotted that thing three times. Yesterday I even say an Northbound R68 W train taking off from Prince Street. LOOK LIKE WE'RE RUNNING INTO SOME SUBWAY HISTORY AHHHH! SO GUYS PREPARE YOURSELF FOR A CHANGE THAT WILL DRIVE U NUTS!
And also, why do you not believe me like that? I don't carry a camera everywhere I go, so I can't get a picture of everything. I'd be looking at the world through a camera if I did. Which I personally think too many people do.
-Broadway Buffer
-Chris
Note to other SubTalkers: This is a joke OBVIOUSLY!
-Chris
-Chris
Nice Talkin to ya
Semper Paratus
Back in 2001, before the bridge change, I bought an orange Q pin because I thought that would be the end of it. But it seems I was wrong as the pin is still available over three years later.
BTW: Thanks for useing my favorite subway line as the first teaser, BRIGHTON EXPRESS.
mine:
-o-- i--a-- -ai--oa-
_ _ S _ _ _GT_ _ - M_ _ _ _PO_ _ T_ _ - _ _E_ - T_ _ _ S _ T - A_ _ _ _ R_ T _ .
It has nothing to do with the NYC subway, but rather another _ A_ _ coast city.
GOOD LUCK!!!
-Chris
-Chris
-o-ie-e -a-io-a-e -e --e-i- -e -e-
Millions have already been spent for this subway already without one backhoe yet.
That would be one mistake they won't be able to talk there way out of....
I'll believe in the SAS when it's running. Until then I'll keep jamming onto the Lex like everyone else.
On life-support machines, that is. Until the MTA brass decides to pull the plug for the 25th time.
That's where you come in. Contact your elected officials and remind them how important SAS is. And keep bugging them.
The plan, at $20 billion, sets a record for Capital spending in a 5 year plan. Most of it is for "State of Good Repair." The rest is for expansion.
The La Guardia extension is dead, and MTA has not moved yet to begin construction of a 7 extension to Javits. This means at least $650 million is already in the bank which can be redirected to SAS, and more if the 7 extension is deferred.
SAS and ESA will move forward, in phases. ESA put out two contracts for digging the required tunnels and do the civil work at GCT; SAS will have nough money to break ground as scheduled in the fall or early winter of 2004.
After that, it's a matter of how quickly the work gets done.
David
Bear in mind also that the STATE has never passed a budget this year, so currently there is NO money. Capital plans are just that - PLANS. If the money appears, they'll do it. If there's cutbacks, there will be cutbacks. In the 1970's, there was a Capital plan too, and SAS was at the top of the list. Whoops. :)
Wouldn’t it be wonderful if there were a law that said that in the absence of a budget all the state salaries would be continued at current rates except the members of the legislature, who would have all their income garnisheed until the budget passed.
That would concentrate minds sufficiently I’m sure!
More on the morass here:
http://1010wins.com/topstories/winstopstories_story_195140402.html
It takes THREE people to make a budget (WHY we even have assemblypeople and senators is beyond me, they're redundant and EXPENSIVE) and the kids are flinging poo at one another. And in an ELECTION YEAR ... shows the absolute contempt for the voters since they'll get reupped anyway and most of them are running UNOPPOSED! :(
Translation of article: Shelly is making at least an effort to see that NYC schools don’t get shafted (and there is at least a semblance of following the court order). Since it isn’t Bruno’s district, he and Pataki don’t care and don’t want to spend the money, since no-one actually wants to raise taxes to pay for the mess. Result: stalemate until someone blinks first.
I return to my assertion: if we don’t allow emergency appropriations to fund salaries for the legislature (including the governor) there will be a budget tout de suite!
And while it's PERFECTLY OK for the state to stiff you for the payment, it's illegal to withhold services for nonpayment. "Do as I say, not as I do" ... the hallmark of the GOP these days. I'd rather deal with criminals. At least they play by SOME of the rules. :(
:0)
One thing that could help a 7 extension is reworking the engineering plan so it doesn't cost nearly $2 billion. I don't know if that is possible.
If only the La Guardia project is killed, MTA could still break ground on SAS and get a fair amount of initialsegment work done. Or they could give the money to LIRR to accelerate the next phase of work on ESA. That could include building the Sunnyside station early. This is a station which could see passenger service before the tunnel to Grand Central is finished, because it is intended to serve Penn-bound trains.
Maybe one way to save $$ is, for example:
Consolidate the entrances to the Javits terminal, and integrate the station into Javits' expansion plan. This would reduce the cost of that station by reducing the amount of hardware needed - and it would allow some budget shifting by having the budget for Javits itself cover the escalators leading to the subway entrances and so on.
But wouldn't that defeat the purpose of a line extension that is being build almost exclusively for special events?
The extension is NOT being built "almost exclusively for special events." The city is rezoning the area with the intention of adding 20 million square feet of office space on the West Side over the next 20 years.
Not only will the 7 train be necessary, but within 20 years there will be the need for even more subway service on the far West Side.
This is where the TA should try to shift the cost of providing entrances to the Javits project itself.
Please note, you can have one very large, high-capacity entrance to the subway, and all the pedestrian routes toward that entrance (escalators, elevators, passageways, whatever) could be an integral part of Javits, and paid out of that pot. Even people on the street would have to walk into Javits property to enter the subway. Designed properly, it wouldn't have to be inconvenient (you walk into GCT's building to reach the IRT).
In theory, the Javits, the Stadium, and the Extension would all be paid for by the real estate and other taxes enabled by the subway and the rezoning. If it isn't, it comes from higher taxes and service cuts elsewhere in the city. So there really is no other pot. In fact, the extension and the rezoning is all you need to get the revenues.
The SAS has been in danger from the moment the 2000-04 MTA Capital plan was financed with as much debt as it was. I was furious then, and am furious now, and am not along. If it isn't built, that will be why.
Would you say that the RPA's analysis of the debt is correct?
http://rpa.org/pdf/MTACapitalplanrelease.pdf
At the expense of how much safety?
Maybe some of the entrances don’t have to be so big, have so many escalators etc, but there should be at least two entrances to everything.
Do the following stations below have at least 3 subway entrances, as per your theory?
York St/IND
155th st/8th Ave/IND
110th St/Central Park North/IRT Lenox
103rd st/IND
Kingston Ave/IRT
Nostrand Ave/IRT
Botanic Garden/BMT Shuttle
And if you want to include street level entrances, include Grant Ave/IND, Clark St/IRT, and Wilson Ave/BMT to your list.
Do the following stations below have at least 3 subway entrances, as per your theory?
(list snipped)
OK folks - what's stranger: RonInB attempting humor or NPDave not reading everything that was written?
David, since Ron ended his statement with a snide remark, I'm afraid I have to give this one to him. All of the stations you listed meet his description of having three portals, two of which you wouldn't normally use. All of them have at least three portals - one for customer use that exits to the street and two for train use, one for railroad north and one for railroad south, these latter two being ones you would use "at your own risk."
I agree with you, 1 point goes to Ron this time, plus 1 bonus point as well. :-)
Sure there are many stations that don’t meet this criterion, just as there are non-ADA-compliant stations. The subway is old. That’s no excuse for not designing new stations to 21st century safety standards!
It wasn't very funny, just mildly so, so you're giving me more credit than I deserve.
NJ Transit information here.
Let's see what plan, the LIRR has for it's customers.
Probably nothing. "Please use Flatbush Avenue instead of Penn Station if possible" is probably what they are going to tell us.
Unless a lot of people decide to take vacations that week, the subway won't be able to handle the transferring volume.
All valid NJ TRANSIT tickets to New York will be honored by NY Waterway Ferry for travel to and from Pier 11 and the World Financial Center only at no additional charge.
All valid NJ TRANSIT tickets to New York will be honored by Lakeland and DeCamp bus lines for travel to and from New York at no additional charge.
Does that mean that if I purchase the lowest priced NJ Transit ticket, I can use it for unlimited service on those lines during the RNC?
(good luck to the nj commuters).
Arthur Thomas
Second, to answer the question:
Market-Frankford Line: 6 car trains at all times. Occasionally runs 4 car consists on holidays. Night owl operations are done by bus for the length of the route, stopping within walking distance of Millbourne and Spring Garden stations, and directly at the other stops (using the Route 21 berths at the South Terminal at 69th Street Terminal, and the Route 3 berths along Pratt Street at Frankford Transportation Center). Former overnight train operations were done with 3-car consists, now impossible due to the married pair nature of the M4 cars.
Broad Street Line: Local, Express, and Special trains use 5-car consists. Express service is reduced during midday hours, and curtailed weeknights after 7:00 PM and all day weekends. Special trains are run only when thee is an event at one of the stadiums or arenas at Pattison. There are some single end and some double end cars (I think the 500 series are single end units, and the 600 series are double end, based on the fact that car #666 (used only for the money train for whatever reason) is a double-end car), and the consist can be any mix of both, but always keeps the cab ends at either end facing opposite directions, as trains simply change ends at some terminals. Broad-Ridge Spur trains use 2 car consists at all times, despite room enough for eight cars originally as is the case with the main line. However, some Ridge stops were shortened. Night Owl operation is done by bus as well, despite the line being UNDERGROUND (Fern Rock notwithstanding), and therefore nowhere near anyone's bedroom window. Former overnight operation car count per train currently unknown, but I believe it may also have been 3 car trains.
Arthur Thomas
And if it were a problem having the trains run every half hour so late, why not step up the frequency? I think the last trains of the night on the MFL are but 15 minutes apart.
For those not from Philadelphia, when the cars are diverted from the subway: Instead of going into the portal at 40 and Woodland, they go over to 38th St., then north on 38 to Market, where they turn to 40 St. back to Woodland. The #10 goes south from Lancaster Avenue onto 40th to Market and north again on 38 St, I think.
10: South from Lancaster on 40th Street, layover on 40th at Filbert, ten west on Filber and north on 41st Street to Lancaster Avenue. Not sure if the bus ops even go to 40th & Market, but I'd guess they do. They might also take Market instead of Filbert when bustituted as they are now; the tracks for the 10 diversion don't actually reach Market Street (however, a 10 that changes to an 11, 13, 34, or 36 on diversion will cross Market).
And maintenace is probably the least of SEPTA's concerns; 30th Street Station's current level of maintenace is due to the recent addition of elevators, bumpy tile, and the new canopy entrances at 30th & Market. Before that was done, 30th Street looked as dirty as it did when the traisn DID run all night, if not worse. I have also heard that part of the NiteOwl bus service was so they could have more time to rehab the Frankford Elevated, and they ran the BSL as bus to match (so in a sense, the Subway-Surface lines are left exposed at 15th Street, and you can get in free). I've heard that once te Market Street rehab is finished, they plan to restore overnight rail service. We'll see what come of that, but I figure if NYC's huge system can pull off the trick, as can PATCO's one line, SEPTA should have no problem.
til next time
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
--Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It was where the wrestling match in Spider-Man 1 took place.
By far, they were one of the most attractive parts of the original IRT, yet most of them are gone now. :( The MTA should reconsider remaking more of them.
Actually, I think they are all gone. The ones at Astor Pl are reproductions I believe.
At my local market (Appletree Supermarket, 121 and Amsterdam) there are pictures of the neighborhood - farmhouses, sheep, and the like. Yeah, this was the "sticks" not too long ago...
Semper Paratus
damn shame...
'test' cars don't seem to get a lot of love. Seems strange though, they'd be perfect for something like franklyn av shuttle.
So what's happening to the red bird that ws there? any idea where it wen?
David
Oddly enough, the R11's were rebuilt, despite the fact that there was only 10 of them.
the r110a/b... shame. simply.
I think its bullshit,and a shows everyone the wastefull contempt the MTA/TA has for it patrons....
Test cars or not...the cost justified the means...
You can waste cash on two diferent set of "TEST TRAINS"..then bitch later that you don't have enough money to sustain yourself..
you raise the fare a full 50 cents,and still cry broke...
City brings you to task for it,you cook two sets of books to cover your ass....
Pompus jerks....YOU can fool some of the people,some of the time...
but you can't fool ALL THE PEOPLE,ALL THE TIME...
Could ahve striped the down to the bare metal gut the entire car, then place the new equipment in a brand new like train ......
NO EXCUSES ...
David
No excuses.....
-Broadway Buffer
Anyway. Why is ANYONE saying that the R110s were NOT built to last?
even if the R32s were 10 years old, they would be out of service by now if there were only 10 of them.
While the R110s likely WERE built to last, Keeping a whole spare parts inventory probably(clearly, with what is the current situation, it is not) isnt economically worth it for 9 and 10 cars.
David
It's nice to see the R16 there, but with the impending R160's making their debut next year, the R110b is the most logical choice as the training car. Most of the newer cars have the brake handles built-in, older models must use the universal brake handle. Assuming all of the R160's have replaced older models, you have only 625 cars in the "B" division that use the old fashioned braking system (425 R68 and 200 R68A cars). The remaining 2,500 cars do not use the brake pipe and the training needed is a car that is compatible with the newer equipment. That car would be the R110B. There are still about 800 cars in the A division that use the brake handle (R62/62A), but this dwarfs the 1,500+ R142/142A cars that have the brake handle built in the controls.
til next time
This afternoon I finally sent the Centennial Commemorative Edition of my track map book to the printer and it should be ready to ship tomorrow afternoon.
Aside from a slightly changed cover, it now depicts the state of the system as it was last week, including the reconfiguration at Nassau Street (new signal and switch information was just received last night!), and the changes at the Stillwell Avenue terminal.
This is a major update to the third edition, but if you just purchased version 3.6 or even 3.5 it's not a huge change. If you have a version prior to 3.5, however, it's a very significant update on the state of the system.
As always, if you have any questions or comments, please feel free to drop me an e-mail.
Thanks to one an all in this forum for your support and help in making this what it is. I really couldn't have dont it without you -- nor would I have wanted to!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition Now Available!
Definitely, although canned announcements could get annoying:
"This is a 69B service to Hollywood."
"The next stop will be King's Heath Church."
"Change here for the 11A and 11C Outer Circle, and the 27, 35, and 50."
"Quicker arrival at the Maypole is possible by changing here for the 50."
"This is King's Heath Church."
"This is a 69B service to Hollywood."
etc...
They actually do announce stops at the Isle of Wight, which makes life much easier.
http://www.portauthority.org/grow/images/system_map.pdf
The craziest thing is they have very nice bus and rail system, and they have just re-opened a new light rail line, and in a few months the service will be much more frequent, according to one hard-to-find rail map, which shows eventually 2 lines on each branch. But the map is impossible to understand, at least to me.
I wonder how much the image consultants earnt for this one…
They didn’t earn anything. They might have been paid though…
I think FirstGroup is trying for the N’Arrive-pas award for the worst transportation group in Britain!
If you want bus photos, I have a few I can scan and send you if you like.
Mark
If you want bus photos, I have a few I can scan and send you if you like.
Sure, go ahead. My email is thomas7381@juno.com
Arthur Thomas
Mark
Does Eric Deal post here? (He is also mentioned in the article.)
Dave, here is the link if you want to link it on the main page:
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/newyork/columnists/nyc-sanchez0715,0,1361700.column?coll=ny-ny-columnists (It is linked above.)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
:-)
Dave P. - is that true?
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Well that's as clear as mud.
:)
It might be cruder than Webalyzer (which probably takes the same source as input), but it gives the page view statistic quickly and cheaply.
PS: You might think about learning something about the Unix(/Linux) command line interface and the scripts available. It’s amazing what you can do. After all your site is running Apache under Linux!
Since the article mentions an R9 cab in his apartment............
This place can't be serious enough... There's 600 volts of current running through that 3rd rail... That's dead serious.
By the way, if people are going to call me "Mr. Kronenberg", at least spell it right...
I wonder how many people are going to point out that "volts" is not current. All I know is "What's the unit of power?"
Uh, BTW, I hear some people have to call you Sir Kronenberg....but I'm not one of them. ;-D
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
You don't know watt you're talking about :P
Power - watt (DC); volt amp (AC)
Current - ampere
Voltage - volt
Resistance - ohm
Capacitance - farad
Inductance - henry
And of course the answer to your question is yes. (Which it seems like some posters don't realize).
Seize Cents Soixante-Quatre?
Before I spoke with Ray, I had some time to think about my feelings about SubTalk. Over the last 5 years it has given me an opportunity to give voice to my somewhat twisted way of looking at things. That's been my trip. And for each person posting here, it provides an opportunity to be part of a community of people with a common passion for mass transit. We all bring our own history to Subtalk and hopefully our sense of who we are will grow and change.
That's not to say everything is perfect here. Sometimes the more vulnerable amongst us get a dose of righteousness and abuse from the more aggressive amongst us. For myself, I find those moments often too much to bear.
I am curious to see if Ray will devote at least another 2 articles about SubTalk so that we will be tied with Eddie Jabbour's new map and Darius's comings and goings.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
And still, people play LOOTO. What was it that W.C.Fields said? "Never give a sucker an even break." New York's official motto. Heh.
Your pal,
Fred
CG
Your pal,
Fred
Too simple.
I don't know you, but let's say you're an average American -- you have a job, pay your bills on time almost every month and even manage to put something away for retirement. Winning $3 million bucks would have a significant impact on your life.
On the other hand, a single dollar doesn't make a significant difference to your life -- if somebody snuck into your wallet and took just one dollar out of it, you might not even notice. Or if a soda vending machine swallowed your dollar and didn't dispense your Dr. Pepper you might curse but not call the number on the machine for a refund.
What would you rather have -- the single dollar, or a chance (even if the "expected value" of that chance is less than $1) at $3 million? Many people will rationally choose the chance at the big bucks. Others will (equally rationally) choose to keep the buck. The choice gets to what economists call "utility theory", and is really the study of preferences.
It is worth pointing out that this theory does not explain why some people will spend well beyond their means on the lottery.
Also worth noting is that there is an extension of this lottery type thinking that goes on to explain why people (of predominantly very low income) will play "instant" lottery games for relatively small prizes -- but that's so dang far off topic (and somewhat controversial) that I'll just stop here.
CG
There are much better ways to invest that $365. Even though stocks are down, the market as a whole has never lost over any 30-year period. Throw it in your IRA or something. It won't grow to 3 million, but it won't just disappear like money spent on a losing lottery ticket.
Mark
Most people complain about taxes yet see nothing wrong in donating money to the state in the form of lotteries!!
CG
I thought it was "There's a sucker born every minute", or was that P. T. Barnum?
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
You gotta expect this from a city that promotes gambling. You gambled $3.00 and lost !!
Bill "Newkirk"
An all-day ticket is $10.00
What language is this?
Mark
Eventually, plans are to extend the system out to McCarren and all the way to downtown. That could benefit people who work at the airport.
Does that include the ones in thier orange vests?
Peace,
ANDEE
I've never thought of public ownership as part of the definition of public transit; although it's true that today almost all North American urban transit providers are in the public sector, this certainly wasn't the case before 1950 or so.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Both, depending upon the location.
http://www.vegas.com/transportation/monorails.html
In general the monorail operates at the back of the east-side hotels, jogging even farther eastward toward the north end of the line to serve the Convention Center and the Las Vegas Hilton. This means that the monorail stations are a modest hike, a quarter-mile or so, from any of the hotels along the west side of the Strip.
A proposed future northward extension would cross the Strip and enter downtown Las Vegas a block or two to the west of it.
The ideal, cost-is-no-object, platinum-plated solution to rail transit in Vegas would probably have been a subway using high platforms (or low-floor cars) right under the Strip, with stops opposite all the major casinos, and extending all the way from the airport to Fremont Street. Mmm, yes, I can just see the casino owners acquiescing to two or three years of traffic disruption and a few billion dollars' expenditure to build that!
It will be interesting to see whether the monorail cuts substantially into traffic on the city buses (which often carry crush loads) and the rubber-tired, privately-owned Strip Trolley operation.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
According to the Las Vegas Monorail's website, they sell five categories of tickets: 1-ride, 2-ride, 10-ride, 1-day, and 3-day.
http://www.lvmonorail.com/ride_01_gettickets.php
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Which reminds me, I was wondering if Salaam would be interested in helping me open up an all-you-can-eat Falafel and Latke buffet restaurant on the strip. 20% off if you can rip off our ad from the interior of a monorail card and show it at the register. :)
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Anyway. If it comes down to "what I'm looking for" I'd rather the posts were on topic.
Peace,
ANDEE
But I know what you mean, I saw the paper itself but am not sure which yard that photo is from. it isn't clear enough to determine the # on the front of teh cars.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
At approximately 10:30 a.m. the excursion train will operate to 59th Street/Columbus Circle, take on passengers, and leave at approximately 10:40 a.m.
The excursion train will operate via the 6th Avenue Line over the Manhattan Bridge, then via the “Q” Brighton Line, via the express track from Prospect Park to Brighton Beach Station.
The excursion train will then turn from Brighton Beach Station, proceed via Track A-4 to Kings Highway, where it will turn again and proceed via Track A-3 from Kings Highway to Brighton Beach and lay-up for lunch.
After lunch, the excursion train will leave Brighton Beach and proceed via the “D” West End Line, loop in 38th Street Yard, proceed to Coney Island Yard and loop.
From Coney Island Yard the excursion train will operate via the “N” Sea Beach Line express from Kings Highway to the “D” line, and proceed to 59th Street/Columbus Circle and end.
Train lays-up to 207th Street Yard.
Your pal,
Fred
Thank you
--Mark
Also, hopefully, the BU's will be able to operate under their own power.
No thanks, it doesn't matter if the ghost of Anthony Luciano is at the controls or not, I don't want another Malbone St. tragedy on our hands. Besides BU's cannot be operated in any tunneled sections and the shuttle have several tunnels. The rules stipulate no one is allowed to ride in the BU cars until we reach the outdoor sections of the MOD route.
--Mark
"The preliminary cause could be the fact that it was installed with inadequate anchors - plastic anchors with relatively small bolts and concrete nails," said Jim Gallagher, Metro's deputy general manager for operations.
A 24-by-30-foot section came crashing down at the start of Wednesday evening's rush hour, forcing the closure of one of the three entrances to the Farragut North station, the third busiest in the system. The fallen section was part of a dropped ceiling made up of wire mesh, narrow wood strips used as a foundation for plaster and concrete, Gallagher said.
Five light fixtures, ceiling tiles and wires also fell down in an area near the farecard machines under L St. and Connecticut Ave. The entrance was closed until Thursday morning.
Officials said they were checking the construction of ceilings in other rail stations for similar faults. The station is on the oldest stretch of the system and opened in 1976. Gallagher said he did not know when the ceiling was built. He said there are routine station inspections, but did not know when or if the ceiling was checked.
No was hurt, and considering the time of day, Metro officials said they were lucky.
Metro board member and District of Columbia Councilman Jim Graham said the accident underscores the cash-strapped transit agency's need for more money. Metro has been asking the federal government, D.C. and its suburbs for $1.5 billion over six years. Of that, $525 million would go toward maintaining the system. The rest of the money would be spent on new rail cars, buses and security improvements.
"This system is going to creak and crack and in some cases fall apart if we don't have these additional funds," Graham said. Preventative maintenance has not been cut back in stations, but Graham said it could be improved.
Mark
As I recall the original entrance passageway built in 1973 was demolished and rebuilt when the building on the southwest corner Connecticut Avenue and L St was built in the late 1980s. Fault may not fall with the contractor or inspectors that built the original entrance passageway. The plans used to build the existing entrance passageway may not have been the same plans used on the original entrance passageway.
I find very hard to believe that their was wood used in the support system for the wire lath that the plaster was applied to. Of all of the plans I have of various stations there is no wood in any of the specifications.
John
See http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=718946
(it's a long post, so search for 123)
CG
If you stick only with trams and U-Bahn (which here is basically just an underground tram) you can go from Krefeld to Duesseldorf to Duisburg to Muelheim to Essen to Gelsenkirchen to Bochum!
Metro Article on Toronto counterfeit bust
I know. Before you know it, they'll be driving cars instead of dog sleds.
I wonder how many years the contefeiting has been going on.
"Can I swipe you in, eh?"
Amtrak SLE screening article.
LIRR uses? They could take over one of the parking lots at New Hyde Park to process passengers for the morning rush...I'm sure that would over well...:0)
If your Congressman is a D, yes.
If there's an R, forget it.
All this rail baggage screening is just "window dressing". It's all courtesy of the depends wearing Department of Homeland (In)Security.
Trains in Madrid get bombed (BTW, the Spanish Police have caught or killed several of the perps, but nothing has been released as to who the bombers were allied to, Al Queda or Basque Sepeartists.
Whatever happened to "we have nothing to fear but fear itself."?
You wanna know what happened to that? Ya REALLY wanna know what happened? I'll TELL you what happened...
Mr. George W. Bush stepped into office. THAT'S what happened.
SAS
They were Muslims, apparently part of some local radical group not really affiliated with al Qaeda.
By the way, the belief seems to be that the electoral defeat of the Aznar government a few days after the bombings was not caused by the bombings themselves, but was an angry reaction to the government's almost desparate insistence that the Basque group ETA was behind them, even when evidence pointed otherwise.
It depends. Some Republicans are among the most consistent defenders of civil liberties in such cases - Bob Barr, and sometimes James Sensenbrenner, for example. Meanwhile, many of the so-called Democrats are too wimpy to stand up to the GOP conservatives pulling the panic button (including John Kerry). That's not to say Kerry will be no good; he will surely be infinitely better than Bush and Co.
As for fear - it's a great way to win elections. Put on your diapers. QED.
Wish, I had more info but I don't.......sorry.
DHS operates to a large extent on what I call "first degree thinking" - you see something and correct it without considering what alternate plans could be made. For example:
Suppose I walk into a Duane Reade and buy a MetroCard. I get on the R train at 42nd, ride it down to Bay Ridge, get out, rob a bank there (informing the teller that a thermos wrapped in duct tape with the end of a shoelace hanging out is in fact a bomb), and flee. Obviously this isn't the type of thing we like to see happening. So one guy gets up and says, "Let's stop selling MetroCards in drugstores, so this will never happen again." Then another guy gets up and says, "Let's terminate all subway service to Bay Ridge and have all trains skip 42nd so this will never happen again." Then the third guy gets up and says, "We should stop selling thermoses, duct tape and shoelaces to civilians, so this can never happen again."
Do you see the problem?
Real life examples:
Some of the 9/11 hijackers (and other hijackers before them) paid cash for one-way tickets. So, we reserve additional scrutiny for those who pay cash for one-way tickets. As a terrorist, I could evade any potential extra screening by simply using a credit card to buy a round-trip ticket (even if I have no intention of making the return trip). Who gets stuck turning his head and coughing for the TSA? Some poor bloke whose father just died. Good job guys.
The 9/11 hijackers used boxcutters. So, ban boxcutters (and an infinite panoply of other tiny sharp objects) from planes, and spend billions making it happen. Never mind that a US plane will *never* successfully be hijacked in the post-9/11 world (Yeah, you feel lucky today, punk?), and that there are plenty more deadly weapons one could make out of innocuous objects than these little pointy things - this is "homeland security," after all, and we can't fool around, can we?
The thing that nobody seems able or willing to do is to put themselves in the heads of the criminals and think like them. Or maybe they have done this and realized, as I did, that it's impossible to stop them, given their strategic and tactical advantages in deciding when, where and how to attack, so they resort to useless Band-Aid measures to make the public feel good.
I could keep going on describing utterly useless security measures but I'll stop here.
I'd like to think so, but I can't be so sure. The never-fight-back, never-resist-a-criminal mantra has been so thoroughly drilled into peoples' heads that you can't be certain if they'll react even in a life-or-death situation.
All it takes is one or two who will stand up and fight and many others will follow. It just takes one or two to set the ball rolling since nobody likes to be the one standout to make waves.
And in that group of 40, you're sure to include at least one or two off-duty or retired law enforcement officers, people who know martial arts or did a little boxing/wrestling "back in the day," at least a couple 20-ish 6'+ guys who'll never back down from a good fight. And in the good old days at least a couple of them would be carrying pepper spray, pocket knives, and the like. (Even today they still serve soda on the plane in cans, some terminal restaurants in the secure area issue metal cutlery, lighters and hairspray are allowed in carry-on, from my own experience rolls of quarters (and keychains) are allowed, and the in-flight magazines are quite stiff.)
I think off-duty LEOs (and retired, provided they keep their certification current) should be encouraged to carry while flying - we can't possibly put enough air marshals on board planes, and if there's a bunch of LEOs willing to stand in the gap, they should be allowed to do so. This would be in addition to arming the pilots, of course. There may need to be some modification of carry privileges, since they're typically issued by individual states and in general one state doesn't honor another state's permits (though there are many reciprocal agreements). And ditch the whole pointy object thing - look for large explosives, install blast-proof cargo holds (like El Al uses), and secure the cockpit door. Anything less fierce than a Rambo-style survival knife, sawzall, bolt cutter, the jaws of life, sledgehammer or pick-ax is ok.
Welcome to the Not-So-Brave New World...
The day that the 7 line extension opens, it will be more than enough capacity for this area. That will soon change. By the end of the 20 years, there will be a strong need for additional subway service in this area.
As I see it, the best way to do this is to extend the L train on 14th Street, and run it north on 10th Avenue. After a 57th St. station, it should run east on 58th Street where it can offer transfers to every subway it crosses. Initially it would terminate at Second Avenue, and eventually run into Queens.
This is more than another fantasy subway. Some type of additional subway service to the Far West Side will be needed, and the real estate industry will demand it. I say that after the current transportation projects are completed (and they probably will be), new subway service to the Far West Side might happen before the SAS gets connected to the Bronx and Brooklyn.
I envision a line running from North Manhattan along 10th (Amsterdam) down along West Street. This part is straight forward.
Here's where I get creative. I would allow the Eighth Avenue line (express tracks) to connect to the 58th Street subway. This would allow more express trains (H train?) to run along 8th without causing congestion at, and above, Columbus Circle. So a new express line would leave the 42nd Street station, and its next stop would be 7th Ave. & 58th St.
I would also, if possible, run either the N or W train west on 58th St., and then north on 10th Ave. This would help with crowding on the 1/9,2 and 3 trains.
Connecting the 58th St. subway to Queens is tricky. Queens Blvd. is already loaded. This is where planners may want to consider replacing the 3 track El in Astoria with a 4 track subway. The G and N (or W) could run up this, as well as the L and H train. With this running as a subway, it would be easy to extend it to LaGuardia, and further into Queens.
Running the subway to Lower Manhattan would be a no brainer. But what about running two tracks under the harbor to Governors Island, Red Hook, and beyond? That would work nicely, but it wouldn't be cheap.
The 10th Avenue Subway could leave North Manhattan for the Bronx, heading East along Fordham Road, and then along Tremont all the way to Throgs Neck. And then, long after we're all dead, someone might extend it from Throgs Neck to Queens, along Francis Lewis Blvd.
Well, that's my vision, but it has to start where there is, or will be, an urgent need. That need will be to keep the Far West Side viable as a business district, and I believe that extending the L train to run on 10th Avenue, and along 58th Street meets that need.
The IND,too wanted a 10th ave subway .....it was planned along with 2nd avenue subway,but dropped because of funding and WW2...
Too bad...
A line could be started from the Trump houses along the West side.
there is a tunnel built there for a line next to the Amtrak ROW...
It could run south to the Javits Center and new complex to be built there..join the 7 subway at the new station with across the platform transfers... and continue DOWNTOWN with a stop at 14th st.
The 14 st stop could be underground, in the 8th ave subway's Mezz'..
The line can continue to the new World trade center and onward to the old South ferry station of the IRT[it would be refurbished],once the New one is built..
looping around the station..the line would continue back uptown....
I know many of you sren't in favor of LRT systems in NYC...BUT in this day and age where building a subway line can cost BILLIONS...
I believe this can be done cheaper and faster than a full subway.
just my thoughts on the matter.
If additional service is needed, then another line can be run from somewhere in the UWS, possibly 72, down perhaps to Battery Park City. The North-South section from 14 to 72 would then be a 4-track line (why bother piddling around with anything less?)
But it's above the 6th Ave express tracks, by the way. (Not that you said otherwise.)
I don't see the wisdom of the city trying to concentrate all of its activities in Manhattan or of seeing the state line as a metropolitan boundary.
As far as the new Jets stadium, it will cover the rail yards. If the rail yards are not covered, the area won't develop. The building will also provide convention space. Finally, the Jets are willing to spend $800 million of their own money for a simple reason; New Jersey is not attractive on the international stage, and this is an international city. Its time that New York City perform a slight reversal, and be less willing to cooperate with the suburbs. There is much of New York City, in all the boroughs, that can be developed, and expanding the subway system goes hand in hand with developing New York City further.
Finally, it is irresponsible for New York City to contribute to urban sprawl, at its own expense. People who live in the 'burbs contribute to America's dependence on oil, and that lifestyle has been subsidized plenty. Its time that the cities reassert themselves.
If you want the benefits of New York City, move to New York City. Don't ask New York City to pay to move those benefits elsewhere.
If New Jersey were willing to fund an IRT extension to connect with and/or supplant PATH then I'm all for it. Commuting is not a bad thing.
As far as the IRT goes, no IRT line should be extended. They are overcrowded. The last thing that we need to do is further crowd these lines for a state that acts as an economic parasite.
Here's the link
-Chris
-RJM
I thought the doorbell was an announcement, "dingdong," and then beeping...
Awesome sounds!
\\Julian
I want to get more sounds of the doorchimes, unfortunately, my camera really sucks and can only record videos ONLY with mono sound :(.
So far, I have only one recording of the doorchime on a R142 or R142a, don't really care on #6 train... which got overcome by the loud noise of the #5 train passing by Astor Place on the Downtown tracks! Grr... the doorchime noise is swallowed up because of that. Will make another round of doorchime recording videos the coming week. If you see me, you'll see me with a black camera bag with a SLR-looking digital Kodak camera.
BTW, I didn't ride the R110a/b not even once. Was the doorchime really different?
Not really (according to the link posted by R36 #9346.)
However, nycsubway.org reports the doorchime to be different (their version)
"# New sounds when the doors close (probably due to new ADA regulations). There is a "Ding-Dong" and an announcement before the doors close, followed by "BEE-bee-BEE-bee-BEE-bee..." as the doors are closing."
Wonder where the BEE-bee BEE-bee BEE-bee went... Perhaps only on the R110a? Multiple doorchimes for the R110 series!?
\\Julian
Now, I'm just seeking a copy of the R110a doorchime =)
Although if you say its similar to that LIRR car, I'll look for that.
\\Julian
Do you know of a published study of subways and els. vs. buses, in NYC or elsewhere, in terms of average speed (total distance travel divided by total elapsed time) ?
From downtown Brooklyn to Ridgewood, you are (sadly) better off taking the G to Lorimer/Metropolitan, then the L, then the M.
Personally, I'd rather see the structure restored, lengthened and converted to light rail, a la AirTrain. There is no subway service in Midtown and the lower West Side west of 8th Avenue. Having another line there would be useful.
I think it would be a great idea, however, I think a subway line would be better, cuz it'd make far more stops in areas that need it. LIRR though can easily build over the west side highway, then dive underground in downtown.
Tracks Ahead - "The Ghan Railway" - WNETDT, Fri Jul 16 06:30pm EDT
Money Train (1995) - TBS, Sun Jul 18 04:00pm EDT
Tracks Ahead - "Joshua Lionel Cowan" - WNETDT, Mon Jul 19 06:30pm EDT
History Traveler - "The Greatest Journeys on Earth: Canada: Journeys Through the Rockies" - HISI, Tue Jul 20 10:00pm EDT
Transatlantic Tunnel - DSC, Wed Jul 21 09:00pm EDT
Wild West Tech - "Train Tech" - HISTORY, Thu Jul 22 10:00am EDT
Jane's New York - "Underground" - WNBC, Thu Jul 22 12:00pm EDT
Extreme Evidence - "Flashover" (London Kings Cross fire) COURT, Fri Jul 23 09:30pm EDT
Tracks Ahead - "Trains of Cuba" - WNETDT, Mon Jul 26 06:30pm EDT
Baltimore Tunnel Fire - DSC, Wed Jul 28 06:00pm EDT
David
Everything I've heard is that the Canarsie contract is running slightly behind.
Why it's a good thing? There are varying opinions on this matter, but the MTA swears that with the trains being controlled by computers, you can run more trains closer together, increasing both speed and service.
No it doesn't. WMATA has ATO but no CBTC.
Okay, let's try again.
Right now NYCT is unable to implement ATO because its impossible with the present conventional signal system.
Once CBTC is up and running, the jump necessary to use ATO is microscopic.
How then, does installing CBTC NOT "open the door" for ATO?
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Excuse me but WMATA does not use Communication Based Train Control. WMATA uses fixed block track circuits to protect the movement of trains. The WMATA Automatic Train Control system is very different from Communication Based Train Control.
Though their are some FRA regulation that WMATA must comply with. WMATA is not regulated by the same standards of a common carrier railroad, WMATA follows the same regulation that most of the rail transit properties do in the United States
John
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Can't
Bypass
Train
Caught up
Ouch.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
David
You will have to go back to around 1957 and Ted Kheel's arbitration ruling on eliminating the 2nd conductor from rush hour trains.
The rationale was that single conductors could not control more than 5-60 foot car lengths because that was the max that one of the two conductors on rush hour trains were currently handling.
And I'm not CERTAIN, but I believe part of that settlement also brought about stationary "platform conductors" to replace the second conductor at key stations where you had platforms on both sides, such as Bedford Park Blvd (CC), and Columbus Circle where the express middle platform was open and used up until shortly after I left during rush hours who would open your "offside" and close up for you. I remember there was one other place like that when I worked for the D in Brooklyn, but I can't remember which it was - MIGHT have been Brighton Beach but I forget. That too was done away with over the years.
I can only speak for the IND which was my home railroad, but just about the entire system was built for 11 cars. When the second conductor was eliminated, 11 cars went to 10 cars even in Queens on the IND. The BMT, running shorter trains generally, never whacked this wall. But it was definitely an issue on the IND.
David
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
What happens if there's no other work for the crew of a canceled run?
I hope they don't lose a day's pay, though I don't see that happening.
I have trouble believing that NYCT would start installing CBTC on the 7 before running tests on the L or at least making informal observations. (What if it's a flop?) The L has yet to run with CBTC, so it's too early to start installing it elsewhere.
Maybe the middle track at Willets Point will be available to turn trains instead of 111th.
David
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
The new signals, recently installed from Main St west have nothing to do with CBTC. Also, the R-62 has no room for the train-borne equipment.
R-32.
Robert
The first step of CBTC will be almost the same as normal service. it will involve things like the train enabling the doors instead of the T/O and the new CC being able to give direct information to the crews and better dispatching like holding to time and stuff like that.
Even if the Union wins the this battle the TA will just have to allow you to pick off after a pick. They are not going to skip CBTC unless they get a one year pick.
Look at the implementation date, over two months after we stop picking. They gave themselves a huge margin to play during which to run classes. Even if they have trouble there is no reason they can't start slowly like 1am-5am out of CNR on Saturdays and that would involve training what, 6 crews.
PLEASE, stop reporting unfounded rumors as fact on this board!
Besides, CBTC in its current form is probibited under the terms of the latest CBA between the MTA and the TWU.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
This train was really crowded for a eastbound in the mornin rush. Each pair of seats had atleast one seat taken through out the entire train, which I think was 4 cars long(C3, no transfer in Huntington).
About 1/4th the train got off at Syosset. It was a fairly nice ride to Port Jeff. We passed 2 trains. 420 was on a passing track around Northport I think, and I think the other was at Kings Park. Between Smithtown and Port Jeff, I layed down across the 2 seats and slept, gettin up every now and then to check out the views.
By the time we reached Port Jeff, there were still quite a few people left on the train, about 1/4th to 1/3rd. I was really suprised.
Got the S61 bus about 10 minutes later. Took it to the ferry. For those who haven't seen these things, THEY ARE HUGE!!!!!!!!
Filled out the application and handed in my resume for good measure at the ferry companies office, walked around town. Got the 11:00 S61 to the train station. Got some pizza, then got the 11:40 train. Saw what I think is the old Northport Village ROW. Transfered in Hicksville to an M7. Stopped Mineola, Hillside, Jamaica, Woodside, NYP.
After finding out I missed the waterway bus, I sprinted to the ferry terminal at 38th and 12th, just in time to see the ferry I was aiming to catch pull away. Fortunately, they run every 10 minutes or so. Got the next one to Port Imperial, walked down to the Waterway office, handed my resume. Went back to the ferry terminal.
Got the next ferry to 38th st. Took the FREE(YEY!) shuttle bus to Penn station, got a ticket for Port Washington. Made the train by 2 minutes. Ran into my mom on the train. I was suprised how crowded it was on the train(an M7). It was the last off peak(3:49). All stops to PW.
Got 35 pics, I'm dropping them off in a lil, hopefully they're good.
A few questions:
1. Why did LIRR waste money building 2 high level platforms at Greenlawn if they only use one?
2. Why is Port Jeff so wide? 6 tracks til the platform, 4 tracks at the platform(only 1 track uses platform)
3. What's the track goin off northwest from the Port Jeff line, I think between Northport and Greenlawn stations.
4. Is the Port Imerpial ferry terminal actually just a really big boat, or is it just made to look like that? It was not connected to land, and you could feel it rocking back and forth.
It's a yard. Before the LIRR went to a push-pull operation in the 1960s (1970s?) they used to lay up trains during non-rush hour.
<< 3. What's the track goin off northwest from the Port Jeff line, I think between Northport and Greenlawn stations. >>
Are you referring to the spur to the old Kings Park State Hospital?
Yes, it is an old ferryboat! I do believe, however, that plans are in the works to replace it with a large, modern facility.
For what sort of job did you apply?
As for waterway, they have an opening for ticket sales at Pier 11(downtown Manhattan) from 11:00am to 7:30pm paying 10 bux an hr(VERY GOOD PAY!). Hopefully they'll hire me for 6 days a week. I need a job. I'm goin nuts here at home(and yes, I have looked in town, just applied for eckerds and the movie theatre).
Are looking for summer work? If so, it might be hard to get hired for a job on one of the boats because there's probably quite a bit of training required. Workers on the ferries are responsible for evacuating passengers in emergencies. There may be some sort of Coast Guard certification required, I don't know for sure.
I guess they have those extra tracks at Pt.Jeff for storage. Just one more note, they go real slow before Pt.Jeff because of this curve
The track branching off I think was actually between KP and Northport.
Dylan
DYLAN
I was getting of the subway at 125th St 4/5/6 station, and took a walk over to the Metro-North station, anticipating some action on the MNR...I get on the platform, the track 2/4 plat, got ready to take some photos, when at first one MTA Police Officer came up to me, pulled me to the side and asked what I was doing. First, he asked me if I was taking pictures of the railroad tracks, and I told him no. He then asked if I was taking photos of the trains, I said yes. He said I wasn't allowed to do that. Wow, after all this time I wasn't hassled at that station, all of a sudden someone wants to question me about it. Anyway, he told me that I wasn't allowed to do it, I told him that I should be able to. After that, he was saying it wasn't allowed, then after my questioning it, he mentioned that it was in the railroad rules that it wasn't allowed.
I was told to show him some ID, which I did, and he wrote it down and relayed what was happening on his radio, and that's when a second officer came over and asked me the same thing. He was a little easier to speak with, he was saying that they were just checking me out, seeing that I wasn't doing any suspicious behavior and that because of the post-9/11 stuff and because of people being stopped and saying they are hobbyists when they were probably suspicious persons, they had to stop and question me, make sure I check out. The officer I originally got stopped by, I got his name and badge number, and I will file a complaint with the MTA possibly online or in person at the stationmaster's office, or both, most likely both.
We then had a discussion about why photography wasn't allowed, but the officers weren't hearing it, they were insisting that I had to be thoroughly checked and that they were only just doing their job enforcing the law and everything. I was telling them my purposes, even allowing the second officer to inspect the photos on my camera, as requested by the officer, and then after close examination, giving it back to me. He told me he understood that I was a hobbyist and not a terrorist, but he insists that I had to be stopped assuming that I could have been the opposite of who I said I was. So, I asked questions and tried to get answers from the two officers...as to why this is going on, again they gave me these post-9/11 excuses, then saying that my home stop is sensitive territory, that there are trains there that go to an even more sensitive area (namely GCT), that I wasn't allowd to take photos of the railroads at that stop or most any stop, etc.,etc. I was outraged, so outraged that when I was told I could go, I still sat there and tried to get some answers from the two...how silly was that? But, I had my reasons for asking what I asked and trying to find out what the deal is...but I have to take that up with the MTA. He was insisting that I leave them alone, which I did after a while, then after assuring that I wasn't arguing with him (my tone very much seemed like it) he insisted that I was getting an attitude and just told me to leave the premises...not wanting to raise my voice or get a temper, I just left, not getting any good photographs there.
Now, before ANYONE HERE starts giving me the whole "We realize you got hassled but why aren't you taking this up with the MTA cuz posting it here won't help one bit" bullshit talk, I *AM* going to take it up with someone up in the MTA, either online or at the Station Master's office or even 347 Madison, if I have to. Because this has gone too far. All this time I was able to photograph Metro-North from 125th or any station, and all of a sudden, i'm told I can't anymore, what am I supposed to do (what are WE AS PHOTOGRAPHERS going to do, and I *did* mention us as hobbyists and railfans) , the officers had absolutely NO answer for that...
Well, I will take my business elsewhere if that's the case, OR I can take it up with people who will listen to me and all of us here who feel our hobby is at stake.
Thank you for listening, reading, watching, whatever...
SAS
I'm not.
Now, before ANYONE HERE starts giving me the whole "We realize you got hassled but why aren't you taking this up with the MTA cuz posting it here won't help one bit" bullshit talk...
Your post is clearly on topic so there is no need to defend yourself.
Well, I will take my business elsewhere if that's the case, OR I can take it up with people who will listen to me and all of us here who feel our hobby is at stake.
Thank you for posting your story. I am very interested in hearing ALL such stories like yours, and I'm sure many other people are too. These stories need to be told so that everyone realizes what is going on and how bad it is getting. I fully support you in your decision to take the matter up with the MTA, and if you need any help with anything related to this, don't hesitate to ask.
I'm glad you posted this report of your harassment, albeit mild. I would complain too (as you are going to). As Brian said, we do need to report these incidents to our fellow photographers.
Conversely, and not to gloat, I railfanned from New Haven to Old Saybrook today and nary a peep.
Good luck with the complaint process and keep us posted.
Your pal,
Fred
SAS
NYCTA and SIRTOA rules state photography and videotaping are permitted. That may not be true for LIRR and MNCR, and it is certainly disallowed by TBTA.
David
If MTA says you can take ictures, then you can. Period. Hwever, as we;ve seen, you may need to be polite, firm, persistent and ultimately to consult an attorney. So be it.
You are referring to operation of the railroad and physical specifications for trains, not whether photography is is not allowed.
"MTA is only a oversight agency. "
No, MTA is oversight, funding and management. So, yes, they can make the rules, and others must follow.
For the RECORD though, Volume 21, Section 1050.9, Paragraph (c) is NEW YORK *CITY* RULES AND REGULATIONS and do not apply outside the 5 boroughs. One of the reasons why I wonder IF there are rules is THIS interesting morsel which only confuses things further ...
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/rules/si.htm
It would SEEM as though the NYCT rule is about to applied to the FRA SIRR entity. Now this doesn't necessarily mean SQUAT with respect to MNRR since SIRR is within the city limits and hell ... 44's? It's a SUBWAY even if the FRA gets to kick the wheels every now and then and probably require a blue card every midnight ... but still ... hmmm. :)
But to "SIRT," it's a different rule number entirely which reinforces my argument that 1050.9(c) is SOLELY NYCT and extends to no one else. In fact, based on the lack of information, it would seem that MNRR and LIRR has no rules at *ALL* in this respect! :)
Never a dull moment watching our lawgivers make sausage, and this one's right on the grill being made fresh daily. Just like cowpies. (grin)
No, they are two separate entities, with two separate sets of regulations (Part 1040 for SIRTOA, Part 1050 for NYCTA & MaBSTOA) that happen to be worded similarly.
NYCRR stands for New York [State] Codes, Rules, and Regulations, not New York City.
But bottom line, I couldn't FIND anything pro or con with respect to photography on Meatball Norsk or on "LIAR" ... methinks management was suffering from rectal-cranial intercession and never promulgated such rules. And if there ain't a rule, then there's nothing to enforce. I find this ... "amusing" ...
Thou that shalt provideth the gold shall maketh the rules...
Anybody who's truly interested in finding out what the rules (if any) are regarding photography on MTA's commuter railroads would probably be best off contacting MTA and asking.
David
Gimme a break.
I understand that the platform is MTA property, but if I cannot partake in a simple harmless activity such as photographing trains as a hobby, then it tells me that I am not welcome on their property or that I cannot feel welcome on their property enough to use their facilities and ride their trains. Maybe I will start driving and add an extra car on the road...oh, but they don't want that, now, do they? Noooooo...so in order to win me back, they will have to reconsider what they are writing into their books...note that I didn't say force them to change their minds, as I know too well that I cannot do that...
SAS
"Terrorist might hit this,they might hit that...."
"Buy duct tape,survival gear...extra food..."
"the terror alert is Orange today..watch your ass..".
"you can't take pictures,because this is a potential target..."
And guess what..do you think those people are that stupid..?
Do you honestly think they would try something like that here ever again,knowing what they started?
This so called Ban on taking pictures is a direct violation of our rights,and is a direct attack on Americans by our so called leaders...and it's just the begining....
By all means the person this problem started with should take it directly to the MTA,BUT I doute if anything will become of it...
they have cops enforcing a nonexisitant law by "force" if need be...
Ive come to accept this ,after my run in with them at South Ferry.....
The United States has changed ,people..and not for the better....
NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT currently allows photography in PUBLIC AREAS of its property. We have not been informed as to the rule on the Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North, and we know that photography is not allowed on/in Bridges & Tunnels' facilities.
David
As I did elsewhere in this thread, I suggest that anybody who's truly interested in finding out whether photography on the MTA's commuter lines is legal or not contact the MTA and ask.
David
If MTA says you can, and LIRR/Metro-North regulations list nothing to the contrary, then you can - period. As to TBTA - that's why you need a lawyer.
The only way any of this will be worked out is if a class-action suit is filed and a judge enjoins MTA and its agencies from infringing on the rights of photographers. That takes $$$ nd time.
David
There is a large degree of "what's not allowed is forbidden" in US law. MNCR has signs specifically telling what IS forbidden on MNCR property (such as hanging around a platform without a ticket). NYCT has carefully enunciated what is forbidden, both in signs and on its web site. The typical public park has a large sign stating exactly what is forbidden. We know bridges and tunnels don't allow phtoso because there are signs.
Since MNCR doesn't say anywhere that photography is forbidden, the reasonable presumption is that it is allowed.
Also, we know from prior experience that asking their PR department will not necessarily provide a correct answer. NYCT's PR organization was telling Subtalkers that photography of all kinds was forbidden without a permit (which wasn't being issued), and yet then NYCT announces proposed rules to prohibit photography of all kinds without a permit. Clearly NYCT PR was simply misrepresenting the facts.
AIM I often hang around MNCR platforms at a variety of stations to watch the rush hour. I don't bother to take my camera since I prefer to just watch. Even when Metro-North police have been present - and seemed to be somewhat aware of me - I've never been stopped or questioned. I'm curious to know, where are these signs posted?
At the entrance to numerous tracks at GCT.
Amtrak consistently does not allow anyone to descend to track level at Penn Station before the announced boarding. At Penn that has always meant the train is already "berthed." At 30th Street in Philly access to the platform has been allowed prior to the train's arrival.
Of course I also noticed the much-maligned LIRR was routinely posting track numbers and opening gates about 15 minutes before departure. And in the heart of the rush hour too.
Rush hour trains generally use the same platform each day. That is why the cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute half-moons form long before the tracks are announced, sometimes when an earlier train is boarding at the platform.
Not consistently.
On which level(s)? I've only seen signs similar to what you describe on the lower level. And that's where I was met by two policemen and a police german shepard about 10 seconds before I was about to pass under the sign at one of the lower level gates.
From the walkway, NYCDOT. The tracks might be NYCTA, but you shouldn't be there anyway.
Verrazano-Narrows
Marine Pkwy/Gil Hodges
Triborough
Throgs Neck
Whitestone
Henry Hudson
Cross Bay Veterans
Queens-Midtown Tunnel
Brooklyn Battery Tunnel
The Brooklyn, Queensboro, Williamsburg and Manhattan Bridges are not part of it.
Oh no - there are pictures online of all nine!!! Better fetch the depends...
Verrazano-Narrows
Marine Pkwy/Gil Hodges
Triborough
Throgs Neck
Whitestone
Henry Hudson
Cross Bay Veterans
Queens-Midtown Tunnel
Brooklyn Battery Tunnel
Photos courtesy of the MTA.
Don't you just love attacks of backside and elbow disease?
-O. B. Laden
S. Hussein
David
David
1. Taking of pictures FROM, not OF, the bridges is prohibited.
Yes, that's correct. On MTA B&T bridges, a sign is posted indicating that no photographs may be taken FROM the bridge.
David
However, taking a picture from the walkway, if one exists, shouldn’t be a problem.
Also, it’s another rule that’s sporadically enforced. When I did the 5-borough bike ride a few years ago, people were taking pictures on the Verrazzano and no-one complained. (Mostly the pictures were of the riders with Manhattan in the background). I also cannot believe that there are no pictures from the bridge during the NY marathon!
So basically, if Osama wants to take pictures of the infrastructure in order to facilitate attack, it's ok so long as there's a smiling guy wearing a turban waving back in the picture. If not - it's off to Guantanamo!
(or something like it, there are hundreds available), and takes all the photos he wants. It’s technology such as this that makes these photo bans ludicrous.
There are certain specific places on a bridge (and OBL knows exactly what palces those are) where, if you had an hour or two of leisure to pack explosives in just the right way (which no terorist would), you could bring down the bridge.
So the idea is to keep the alleged mastermind from photographing that place, and then telling the implementers: here's where to pack the explosives.
It's still farfetched to think that the photo ban has any value, but at least it's much easier to understand than relative to the subway.
So the argument is not only weak but wholly specious.
So, I guess, to the bureauweenies, it’s a difficult decision about where to place the bombs etc, so terrorists will need lots of photos etc, etc. Hence they think the ban will help.
In the real world, OBL and associates have access to engineering expertise, and they size up the bridge in ten seconds, photoban or no and know where to put the old C4. I know I could do it.
Oh no - there are pictures online of all nine!!! Better fetch the depends...
Haha. Seriously it has been clarified that you can't take photos from the bridges.
Yeah, our military bases are tax dollars at work, but we aren't talking about army tanks or missiles or anything the civilian public has any access to...we have access to revenue service trains, so therefore why can't we be able to photograph them?
Now, before you go off and attempt to spoon feed any ad hominem or some other fallic logic in my mouth, think about what I am trying to say here, I am trying to say that anything which is understood to be in public domain, whether privately or publicly owned, should be permitted to be documented, photographed, written down, drawn, etc...
Please save the arguments for a rainy day. This is out hobby at stake, here...this is our livelihood at stake...next thing they might do is tell us we can't talk ill of the MTA on public message boards or tell us we can't watch trains while on their property or things like that...
To think that just because you're an employee this doesn't really matter to you as much as us little guys. Well, guess what? I have heard stories of even employees being questioned for certain behavior related to this. Not only that, it's about the ability for some of us non-employees to enjoy ourselves and express ourselves in the form of rail photography and the likes.
Thank you
SAS
But unless MNCR rules actually prohibit photography, then photography is allowed. The police officer is committing a civil offense, for which the MTA can be sued, if he is just making up the rule about photography. The only rule I've ever seen posted is that you have to have a ticket, not that photography is prohibited.
On the other hand, maybe the rule does exist. But it doesn't appear to be on the MNCR portion of the MTA web site.
I couldn't agree more. You won't find a more pro-police person than yours truly. But we cannot and must not deny the existence of those few "bullies with badges" who get off on this stuff. And they are probably having the time of their lives right now...regrettably, at our expense.
You are absolutely right. And then there are the Gestapo agents who are jerks just because they can be, or because they've had a fight with their wives, or not gotten a promotion, or or fighting a hangover, or any other myriad of reasons -- including enforcing obtuse or non-existent rules and laws.
They do a lot of stuff, and they also have the tendency to screw up; like anyone human. So before you bash the cops and say they don't do anything, next time you're in a 911 situation, I hope they don't respond to help you out.
W Bwy
SAS
[note: metro north may be private property, so the rules may not apply.]
http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf
...also in case somebody confronts you in regards to "copyrights"....
if you are on the street, or public property, adn can see a private building, then there is no copyright infrigement.
http://www.megalaw.com/top/copyright/17usc120.php
and don't let those thugs bully you into thinking you may be a terrorist, thaat's ridiculous; that's the gov't putting the FEAR into you.
Sometimes I get so disgusted I wish Nimby had...ummm, on second thought, forget it. ;=D
Case No. 2 - Just read a letter the NJ Transit Police Chief sent to some newspaper denying ANYONE is ever prohibited from photographing NJ Transit equipment or facilities from public property. SubTalkers, we know he's lying, right? Now he told the paper they DO prohibit people from photographing ON NJ Transit property without a permit. Then he cited the law - which the news article the Chief was all upset about apparently had said doesn't exist. But the law he cited was something about Safe Conduct and he wrote, "You'll notice that it doesn't mention photography, but we feel that non-permit photography is implicitly included in unsafe conduct restrictions." Hey Chief, gimme a break!
These agencies have some very devious people in them. Wow!
I believe that situation was resolved. He won a judgment, and SEPTA was told it could no longer interfere with his playing music. I think they came to an arrangement where he can play to his heart's content in certain places but agrees not to in others. I haven't seen any press about this in the last couple of years.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
The Metro-North police officer was talking out of his hat. What Railroad Rules?? The Consolidated Railroad Laws of NY State were abolished in 1967 and replaced by a revised NY State Penal Law. I was in the Police Academy at that time. One of the instructors who was lecturing on the subject stated that revisions were needed, due to the obsolence of many laws -- among them, vagrancy and loitering statutes.
This may have led to the issuance of the NYC Transit Authority Rules and Regulations, later changed to NYC Rules and Regulations, which was implemented in 1967, coinciding with the abolishment of the Consolidated Railroad Laws.
How is MNCR or most LIRR federally controlled?
The Photographer's Right - A Downloadable Flyer
Your Rights When Stopped or Confronted for Photography
> They are issued for a longer period of time than one day or one month...1 to 3 years is reasonable
> They are renewable
> They are good for the entire system, and not just one location
> An ideal proposal along these lines would be a nationwide photo permit which would be recognized and respected by ALL transit properties, similar to the ones issued by the National Parks Service, and subject to the above conditions
Of course, THE ideal situation would be for our successfully convincing these publicly-funded (translation: taxpayer-supported) agencies to take and keep rail/bus photographers off of their "suspicious persons" lists. Short of that happening in the immediate future, how does this suggested compromise sound to some of you folks?
But if these publicly-funded (i.e., taxpayer-supported) agencies insist on being such "hard-@$$es" about it, these are the ONLY conditions under which I would even CONSIDER accepting such a policy.
Hopefully they will eventually come to their senses and re-evaluate their anti-bus/railfan thinking. I just hope it won't take an ACLU-type legal action to force them to do so.
Hell, you would think they would be flattered that there are people who are impressed enough with their trains, buses, and LRVs to want to photograph them.
No kidding.
When I open my bus company, I'm holdin photo contests for the best bus, rail, and ferry pics
This is the reality.
You need a permit to take pictures in National Parks?
-RJM
Definitely not.
Short of an ACLU-type legal action, this is the ONLY way this madness will end.
Here was my day...
I went down to Grand Central Terminal (and no, I didn't take Metro-North, even though it's right at my doorstep) and proceeded to the Station Master's Office (SMO) and spoke with a nice lady at the desk. We spoke about the incident that I had on Friday evening. She mention that because of the events that have occurred (since 9/11) and all of these terror threats and such, photography on MNR has been curtailed and subject to being checked out...HOWEVER, she seemed determined to find out what was the real case in terms of photography in the railroad system. She could only speak for Metro-North, not for the MTA as a whole, so she said that the only way for me to photograph without hassle by the MTA police, she suggested to call the SMO and let them know the times and locations that I would be on the property (including Grand Central Terminal and any MNR railroad station) and that I have the intention of photographing. Another idea was to obtain a permit from the MTA to photograph certain locations and certain times...now she and I both understood that having to obtain a permit shouldn't have to be necessary for me to just come on the property with the intention of photographing MNR's trains, but she mentioned that some sort of notice for her office is probably the best way to photograph on MNR property with minimum hassle.
The Stationmaster also contacted and allowed me to speak to a person in the Media Relations (?) office who would help me in my quest to photograph on MNR property and have as little of a confrontation as possible with the MTA Police. He told me that I can contact him at any given time that I wish to photograph on MNR property, as long as I give him some advance notice and he can mail or fax me a memo to show to MTA Police and that should cause them to back down on me. Again, I mentioned that all this shouldn't have to be necessary, but because of the times, it is the best I can do...for now. We spoke about the recent anti-photo attitude at New Jersey Transit and how they are stopping (and even arresting and confiscating cameras of) people that are found taking photos of NJT railcars (commuter and light rail) on their property AND off. The gentlemen and I spoke for upwards of a half hour on the SMO's phone, but it was an interesting and uplifting conversation, and he was willing to assist me in my goal to photograph MNR without getting too much hassle from MTA Police.
After I was done with the SMO, I went down to MTA Police HQ to see what I can get from them. I got down there, and the officer at first was inviting and polite, but as soon as we got to the photography portion of our conversation, she got stern right quick. She was firm in her assertion that since 9/11 NO photography was allowed of the trains, tracks, stations, and any MNR property. I tried to ask for proof in writing, and she only gave one more assertion that it was absolutely banned.
Well, you thought my battle ended there. Wrong. I took it a step further and after I left MTA Police HQ, I took myself out to Newark Penn Station to have a word with NJ Transit Police. Though I did get the run-around, and though the officers didn't seem to want to talk about the matter, I had a little discussion, much to the officers' disinterest. I spoke about why they were banning photography, and they gave a stern, brief explanation saying that it was because of the 9/11 events and because of the events leading to the Republican National Convention. The male officer first told me this, and the female officer chimed in later on. I was angered, obviously, not only because of the whole anti-photo attitude they have, but also because of the manner in which the officer addressed me. His attitude was cold and firm, stern, and stubborn. He was certain that NJ Transit Police was not allowing photography on ANY of their trains, ANY of their rail systems (including the NJT Commuter Rail, HBLR, NCS and the RiverLINE), any of their stations, ANY of their *private* property (which included Newark Penn Station), even of ANY of their rail equipment FROM CITY OR TOWN STREETS...anyone caught with a camera photographing NJT Rail will be arrested and have their camera and/or film confiscated...yes, that's right...CONFISCATED...all in the name of safety and security. The officer was mentioning that he had just confiscated two cameras within the last week! They were not playing games.
The female officer was talking to me about safety and security and how I can actually go across the street to obtain a permit, the guy was being a hard-ass the whole time, telling me that I had to have a date and time and location of where I plan to photograph, and not only that...but MY PURPOSE FOR DOING SO...when I told my purposes for doing so, the lady was shaking her head, and the guy was saying that they aren't going to buy my reason for photographing...i guess they were looking for a reason like for media purposes or a particular story I am out to do....sorry, bubba, I could have said that, but then I'd be lying, and I'm not a liar type of person. After I was directed over to NJT HQ, which I knew where it was, anyway, I got one last lecture of photography being banned.
Not to mention that I actually let them know how I felt about possibly being detained just for being a shutterbug, that I felt like I was being treated like a criminal (though they wanted me to think that they disgree, but I felt I knew better), and that a shutterbug is NOT a threat to terrorism. Then, the male officer tried to tell me that shutterbugs were the way the terrorists planned the Madrid bombings, which I think is absolutely false. I also spoke out about how I felt that taking pictures of sites doesn't equate to a terror attack, that you don't need to take pictures of the trains to plan how to blow them up, that you don't need pictures to carry out acts of terror...I was shut down by the male officer, he didn't let me finish, since he claims he didn't have time for debate or discussion...If he was able to tell me all that I asked him about, then he had time to hear me out for five more minutes...then, two more officers came over to check out what was going on, then they dismissed me right then and there, as if any more of what I said would just give them reason to arrest me and give all involved a hard time. So, I left.
I headed over to NJT HQ, gave my name and the name of the person I was to see, the receptionist called up and asked how I can get a permit. I stated my purpose, the receptionist was unsure that my purpose was going to sit well with the permit issuers, so she called up again to ask who gives the permits, which was their Real Estate Department (don't ask), and that I would have to deal with them...whether I go in to pick it up or ask for it on the phone, i don't know...she couldn't tell me. I have the number, so I will call within due time. Other than taht, she was unable to help me. Since talking to her wasn't gonna get me upstairs to speak to someone, I just left.
I took the PATH to the subway home, thinking about the whole situation and how it came about. Let's just say, the rest of the ride, I had politics in my mind.
And that is all...
BTW, I will try to speak to someone at the ACLU and the New York Chapter, the NYCLU, will join with them as an aid to win this battle, and I will also try contacting industry publications and the Media.
This is the end of this chapter of my story.
SAS
This has to be one of the best posts, ever. Thanks again.
most cops are in dire need of authentic counterterrorism training, and updated legal education; mimicking what they see on C*O*P*S, or geting advice from judge judy, or dreaming up the next big thing after swallowing two donuts and a big gulp is NOT police work.
Of course. They (and by "they" I mean the government powers, as well as Osama bin Laden), want you to be in fear, in terror. That's what "terrorism" is about.
Pull up those Depends, John - it's poopie time!
AND YOU CALL YOURSELF A RAILFAN?
If people with your mindset are the future of this hobby, we're in worse shape than I feared.
Jeez.
:-(
Or are you just talking out ur @$$ instead of out your mouth?
Railfanning and photography together are my recreational activity, for the most part. Not to say my life depends on or revolves around it, but this is part of who I am...and if these people think that they can hinder my efforts to provide an enjoyable railfanning experience, they are "99 and 44/100th percent" WRONG! It's not about what other people say, it's about telling law enforcement and the transit agencies that deal with them that we aren't terrorists and that not all shutterbugs are criminals, and not all criminals are shutterbugs, and so forth. There are people that I know who don't even think of taking pictures of trains as a hobby or a recreational thing to do, but just because it is photography, and just because many people love trains, and just because I am trying my best at my recreational activity that they are behind me 100-200 percent...
So re-think what you said and then come back to me on that...
Because I don't think you're a railfan...and you definitely seem NOT to support our cause...
and WHAT THE HELL IS THIS ABOUT HARRANGEMENT? Who said I was doing that? I was only trying to explain my side of this whole debate and trying to find ways of influencing law enforcement to back down on us, since they are the ones calling us "suspicious persons." Are you a suspicious person? I know I'm not, i dunno about you, but WE ARE NOT SUSPICIOUS PERSONS, WE ARE INNOCENT LAW-ABIDING, TAXPAYING CITIZENS who HAPPEN to like photographing trains and rail systems. IF YOU ARE NOT A SUSPICIOUS PERSON, I SUGGEST YOU SEE THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL AND REALIZE THAT IF WE LET THIS CONTINUE, WE JUST MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO DO WHAT WE CONGREGATE HERE AND DISCUSS DOING. This is our livelihood, and you are willing to give it up just because the cops say so? That's like you mother telling you that you have to stop socializing with everyone just because she says to go to your room and that you're grounded indefinitely...I sure wouldn't want that...
SPEAK UP, PEOPLE...WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE (and the smell coming from hard-hit train brakes...)
and that is all.
SAS
Do what you feel you have to do!!!!
PERSONALLY, I DON'T SEE anything WRONG WITH THE ACT OF VISUALLY RECORDING OUR TRANSPORTATION SYSTEMS. It's plainly obvious that this is not something to prohibit. Anybody can just ride the damn thing to find out all they need to know about it. See, thing is, I can understand the "normals" attitude regarding taking photographs of railroad operations. So I'm advising discretion when we do it. As I mentioned before, you won't see newspapers heralding the plight of "...a man who was noted taking photographs of subway tracks and station platforms and was questioned by the police on the scene..." That doesn't mean it's not subject to further examination and discussion.
Can you print your visual record 30 years from now?
Use your head in the pursuit of your personal recreational activities and you'll do fine. Stop with the harrangement of the police o.t.j., you are not doing us any favors with this.
Are you serious? These cops are making up their own rules even though there is no definite ban on photography and they keep using 9/11 as an excuse. Don't you think that if 9/11 were the real purpose for this proposed ban that it would have been implemented the day after, or perhaps even the same day? Think about it, there's more to it than what we may see right now. All these agencies and officials are trying to do is bully/harass to the point of abolishing this recreational activity and give the public a false assumption that transit fans are terrorists and such.
This is exactly what a permit system represents: runaround and other bullsh*t. If you don't think it's true I have a bridge to sell you.
Moral: Whatever is not explicitly forbidden by written code of law is allowed. And such written laws, especially those written with "security" or "safety" in mind, are to be viewed with the most extreme suspicion.
BTW, I will try to speak to someone at the ACLU and the New York Chapter, the NYCLU, will join with them as an aid to win this battle, and I will also try contacting industry publications and the Media.
This is the end of this chapter of my story.
LET us know how that goes. We are showing the agencies, cops, gov't officials, etc. that we will NOT take this lightly; not resorting to violence of course. With the recent incident at Times Sq, the security in that area, as well as GCT I say is going to be even tighter and I can imagine the harassment us transit fans and tourists would possibly face. And I notice that NJT is being a bitch about obtaining a permit, as you had described. You make a attempt to legally obtain a permit to avoid harassment and suspicion yet they railroad you and give you bullshit expainations. My conclusion is that they are delibarately reducing the # of given passes so that they can show that they are big and bad :-\.
Great post BTW.
I'm pretty sure that most law enforcement and transit employees don't want to tell people/could care less that they can't take their transit photos but then their jobs are on the line. But I agree its getting far worse than it should be.
SAS
But I would like to urge ALL OF US as a group to protect what's ours...ok, maybe just tell the "authorities" that we aren't doing anything wrong or committing any crime, so why should we suffer in the name of terrorism, security, and "safety"? I don't feel safe, with gestapo looking over my shoulder telling me what not to do...that's not safe, that's communism in the 1960s and Nazism in the 1930s...gimme a break
This ain't the United States of America, this is like the Federated Terrorized Republican States of George W Bush...
but anyway, we have to give it our all, to make sure our hobby doesn't get taken from us, and none of that due process stuff either...rofl
BUT,...
This isn't over.
Really now! NOTHING from the federal government speaks of a photo ban or a curtailment of freedoms anywhere that I can find.
In my opinion, it is the LOCAL PIGS and TA bosses with WET PANTS that are seizing on this as a way to limit photography for what murky end I cannot imagine, except maybe to prevent people from documenting their shortcomings and failures.
The only requirement from the Federal Level was to "improve security" and watch for "suspicious activity".
Your (well earned) invictive need only be aimed at the Bosses in NYC.
Elias
That's quite true ... I don't believe terrorism paranoia elsewhere in the country is anywhere near as bad as it is in New York.
I was in New York a few eekends ago and from what I can tell it is far worse up here in Boston.
But still, we need to do something about it...and fast, before other things happen which we don't want...
SAS
POSTED: 2:52 pm EDT July 11, 2004
UPDATED: 9:29 pm EDT July 11, 2004
RALEIGH, N.C. -- According to a new study, the idea of a commuter train service connecting Raleigh to Wilson and Goldsboro is feasible and affordable.
The study, commissioned by officials in the Wake County town of Knightdale, concludes that building the 100-mile rail system would cost about $125 million. That is less than the typical cost of eight miles of urban freeway.
Officials in other towns along the route see the proposed rail system called "Eastrans" as a way to promote economic development and make their communities more attractive to commuters.
The proposal is for a two-corridor, U-shaped route running east from Raleigh on existing tracks.
A northern leg would reach Wilson, with stops in Knightdale, Wendell and Zebulon. A southern leg would reach Goldsboro, with stops in Clayton and Selma.
In Raleigh, it would link to two stations serving a planned Triangle transit rail line.
Copyright 2004 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
-------
No, I dont' know why they say "high-speed" unless their highways are worse than mine and average way under 15mph. And I wish tis was running now to clinch my decision process on trying out Amtrak for the first time and going to NC.
The southern route would be the route currently followed by the Piedmont and Carolinian as far as Selma. There might be more demand for that service but I can't imagine anyone commuting from Goldsboro to Raleigh; indeed, it might be more likely that someone in Clayton or Selma would be going the other way.
Pipe dreams.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
please tell me what you think about my idea
-Alexander-
-Chris
I would like to see the J/Z extended as well to 168th Street(just like the el) and beyond.
Mind you, there's nothing that precludes the MTA from adjusting their fares to lower prices for Zone 3 customers, or keep the fares as is and provide a free LIRR to bus transfer in Queens. Hopefully, the results from City Ticket prove that there is a market for NYC commuter rail access. In-city usage of commuter rail seems to work in Philadelphia for SEPTA and its Regional Rail service (or am I incorrect about that?).
The LIRR and Metro-North can do a better job of serving in-city riders if they want to, or if the MTA wasn't so "protective" of the subways and buses.
6 line to Coop City
L line to Starrett City and possible to the Javits Center (Manhattan)
1/9 to Staten Island (via a tunnel from South Ferry)
I would alter a few things on that now...
What did you use to make it, James?
IND color groups will be purple (188, 197, FLB, 212), blue (Spfld/Brd, Winchester, Commonwealth) and green (LNP, 268).
wayne
Main Street
Parsons Boulevard
164th Street
172nd Street
Utopia Parkway - St. John's University
188th Street
Francis Lewis Boulevard
Bell Boulevard - Bayside
Springfield Boulevard
Little Neck Parkway
260th Street
Lakeville Road - City Line
That's pretty close to Hillside Avenue. I would branch the locals down Jewel and 73rd Avenues, to 230th Street.
Union Turnpike is actually pretty far north of Hillside Avenue and could easily generate new ridership. It runs through a lot of different commercial areas and directly adjacent to St. John's University.
Unless you tunneled under everything.
Sounds kinda like my Y Train proposal:
CG
CG
CG
There are three ways of reversing a train off the Running Lines:
a- Into a siding outside the running lines.
b-Into a siding between the running lines.
c- Into a siding between the running lines with exits at both ends
and so can be used for both directions.
Do these have special names?
London referred to all three as 'Traffic Sidings' - where the train remained under the control of the Signalman and was not 'Lost' in a yard.
There are three ways of reversing a train off the Running Lines:
a- Into a siding outside the running lines.
b-Into a siding between the running lines.
c- Into a siding between the running lines with exits at both ends
and so can be used for both directions.
Do these have special names?
By WMATA nomenclature C would be the answer. Here is the typical layout of a pocket track on WMATA.
WMATA does not have either A or B along the main line of the system WMATA does have a third track similar to C in the tail track beyond one of the existing terminal stations Springfield-Franconia (J03).
WMATA pocket tracks are a minimum of 620’ (188.97) long to accommodate an eight car train. The pocket track at West Falls Church (K06) is roughly twice as long as the typical length pocket track. Two station have the pocket tracks located between platforms; West Falls Church (K06) and National Airport (C10). WMATA has a total of seven pocket tracks around the system.
John
Washington learned from other Systems (despite having pieces of ceiling falling down) and planned accordingly.
These 'double ended sidings' can be used to reverse trains in either direction and also to switch trains to the other line which are , I understand, signalled for both directions for use during emergencies or track work.
Yes, all of WMATA main line tracks, yard leads, and route connector tracks are bidirectionally signaled. However only main line and pocket tracks are equipped for automatic operation of trains.
John
I'm sure I am among a number of others who also hold that status. Good luck to anyone else trying to reach this feat, it is quite satisfying once you do it and fun to be able to tell others you did it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A Galapagos tortoise that hatches today might live long enough to see the SAS. No, probably not.
Everything was fine through our departure from Philadelphia. Just after passing the SEPTA Crum Lynne R2 Station, we came to a stop for about 20-25 minutes, during which a garbled announcement was made about why we were stopped, but I really couldn't understand it. After the problem was resolved, we made our way to Wilmington. The conductor came on again and annouced that we would be continuing on at reduced speed due to the difficulty being fixed somewhat, but obviously not enough to allow us to run at full speed. At Wilmington, our stop was longer than usual so they could do more inspections, but the conductors did not indicate that our train would be delayed any more than it already was, closed up, and did not announce anything about potential delays. Once we were underway from Wilmington, the conductor announced we would be continuing at reduced speed the rest of the way and would arrive in Washington in no less than 90 minutes from our Wilmington departure, but the announcement was in such a way that our travel time could have been more than that. It was now 10:17, we were due in Washington in 30 minutes, but they were now predicting an arrival time around 11:50. When the conductor came though to get tickets, I asked him about the Regional that was boarding at Penn at the same time as our train and he told me it had difficulties of its own and as a result, was instructed not to offload us. I accepted this answer but naturally, that Regional passed us before we even reached Newark, DE. Needless to say, I was not very happy about this, nor was anyone else. The conductor later told me they fixed the other train and he requested it be held at Baltimore for us, but that request was denied (and I support Amtrak management on this decision, too many people would be inconvinienced if the Regional waited for us in Balitmore and there would have been no savings for the Express passengers). We eventually arrived in Washington at about 11:56 AM, about 70 minutes after our scheduled arrival. The Regional arrived about 30 minutes before we did.
This afternoon, I called up 800-USA-RAIL, and spoke with customer service. I suggested that it be Amtrak policy to update passengers on all trains (but at least on the Premium services) as to the status of other trains and that Amtrak management should not make those decisions for us. Depending on the nature of the Regional's difficulties, I may have been willing to gamble on the Regional arriving before the Express and simply only requested a refund equal to the difference between the Express and Regional. Instead, I believe I am now getting a full refund. Amtrak loses more money this way and based on conversations with my fellow passengers, Amtrak will be giving a number of refunds to people. I also suggested that Amtrak's automated phone system (aka Julie) not require people to go to a ticketing agent to request a connection to customer service. Luckily, there was no wait for the ticketing agent, but I wouldn't have been too happy if I had to wait 5, 10, or 15 minutes for a ticketing agent who would only connect me to customer service.
Also, this is an example of how Amtrak can't screw up if they want to win passengers from the air shuttles.
Today's trip by train:
I wake up by 6:45 AM
Eat breakfast (not required because I can buy it on the train)
Leave at 7:15, take subway to Penn Station
Arrive Penn Station at 7:45, buy NYT and board train
Train leaves at 8:00
Train scheduled to arrive in WAS at 10:47
Take Metro to Friendship Hts, arrive about 11:15
Someone comes to pick me up at FH, I arrive home no later than 11:30
Total trip time is just over 4 hours
By plane:
Wake up by 6:30 AM
Eat breakfast (eating at the airport/on board plane is not pleasant, therefore I have to have time for this)
Leave by 7:30 by taxi, earlier if I take M60 (and earlier times adjusted accordingly)
Need to arrive at LGA by 8 at latest for security/check in/other stuff
Plane leaves at 9, need to be on board by 8:50
Plane arrives at DCA at about 10
Proceed to baggage claim/use restroom in terminal because of no-potty rule on the plane
Proceed to Metro station
Take Metro home, requires transfer at Gallery Place, arrive at FH by 11
Arrive home by 11:15
While the plane in this ideal situation gets me home 15 minutes earlier, I also have to get up earlier and the amount of time available to me to read or not be moving from place to place en route is far greater, and therefore, I prefer it. But if Amtrak is going to be about as vocal as an airline about a delay (which isn't very), on a clear, sunny day like today, I might as well fly if I put my railfan interests aside. I barely made it to where I needed to be by 1 PM. I actually arrived there 10 minutes on my own with only 15 minutes at home before going. Had I wanted to be on time, I would have had no time at home which would be far from ideal.
More stuff from my trip to come...
Like they have the resources to draw upon to prevent screwups. It wasn't Amtrak that was bailed out in 2001 but the airlines, you know.
Your pal,
Fred
Not in New Haven.
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Jersey
They started throwing the shrouds at speed, so Amtrak removed all of them.
http://www.curbed.com/archives/2004/07/16/high_line_dystopia.php#more
but the thing looks like it could support subway trains. Why not make it a southern extension of whatever they'll do with the #7?
www.forgotten-ny.com
It would be a great idea as a train line again. And it's not like the people would be unused to an elevated structure in the neighborhood. And they say it's 30 feet wide.
P.S. I know a number of posters are going to comment about how the reporter doesn't know the difference between a motorman and a conductor yet that is such a minor point to the story. The real point is someone actually got run over by 4 cars and was treated and released the same day!!!
It said he had a history of seizures.
If you are VERY athletic you might try climbing, and if you are near the leaving end of the station you might try running, but otherwise I recommend the trench. Two people in the trend have survived recently, one on an elevated where I wouldn't have thought it possible (not as low as a subway trench). The most recent people who tried to get up got run over.
The article said that the man had a history of seizures. I had thought that repeated seizures = epilepsy. Now I have found that it is not necessarily the case.
David
Robert
Unfortunately, commonfolk don't know the difference between a conductor and a train operator, or a subway and a subway train. Take a look around! There is an ad for a storage company on a few trains (most recently, I saw it on the Q). It said something along the lines of "My apartment is as wide as this subway, so I have to use storage" and it showed a picture of a crowded train. Damn, I'd love to see an apartment as wide as the subway, wouldn't you? All I know is, she better have maids, because there's no way in hell I'd be able to clean a place that big :)
Unfortunately, I don't think it matters to these newspapers. And that's what turns me off from journalism sometimes. They just don't care.
Same with the STATION Booth. Some people still refer to them as TOKEN Booths. After 50 years of token use, it's hard to think of them otherwise. Before tokens they were known as CHANGE Booths.
I've never seen the railroad clerk term used in the paper before. But is a railroad clerk=station agent? In that case, it's a different story; instead of being blantantly wrong (ex. conductor=train operator, subway=subway train), they're just using outdated terms for the same thing they are describing. Still sucky editing, though.
I haven't been to Fordham in 25 odd years. If you say there is a mosaic there I'll take your word.
>A conductor is the person who opens on closes the doors on a subway train.
>A Train operator (Once motorman) actually operates a train.
>A Station Agent (Once Subway Clerk) works inside the booth making change, selling fare media (Metrocards), giving directions and generally is there to call for assistance if something happens.
The title Railroad Clerk is an outdated title. It has been outdated for 7-9 years now. The correct title is now Station Agent.
The substituation of titles will probably continue for several more years. But it's dumb for a reporter to confuse what a conductor and a train operator does. And just as dumb for the editor to miss that when editing and proofreading a story. It might be a minor point. But it suggests that maybe something else in the story is wrong.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Thanks in advance.
Although looking at old pics of the (A) line on this very site, there signs WERE in caps.
Front of car.
Interior view.
Side view.
1979 subway map.
IND Rollsigns.
Interior view.
-Chris
-Chris
The photos seem to indicate that they've at least hired the "autopilot" from the film "Airplane" so chances are he's holding onto something in that cab. (grin)
Jimmy
wayne
wayne
wayne
wayne
Although I would imagine that those seats must be uncomfortable to dine on.
I used to go there when I was young. I remember that train car, it was sooooo cool to eat in there.
There was a K-Mart in the same outdoor mall, is that still there?
When this was discussed a couple of years ago (sans pictures, though - thanks Chris!) someone indicated that it was strictly half a car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
til next time
That is because it is an R6.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
wayne
wayne
Once I visit to SI these days, I'll be sure to make a stop there.
Perhaps a Sub-Talk / Bus-Talk field trip there one day if it is partially accesibly by SIRT ?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They are very expensive even for a "Kosher Deli" but they were the only Kosher place on the island back in the 80's when I lived there.
It is not a FULL car, about 3/4's of the car is there.
But if you eat there, you can walk over to the Yukon Bus depot which is right behind the Kmart >G<.
Just imagine: You place your order at an oak token booth, and the path between the dining room (the subway car) and the order counter (the booth) is decorated in Vickers-style mosaic tiles.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I also love Katz's Deli. I'm not Jewish, but I immediately knew the place couldn't be all that "Kosher", since I saw the cheesburgers on the menu. You can't beat the pastrami on rye there though - and the kasha knishes are unbelievable!! I always try to stop there when I am in that area.
As for Ben's Deli. There are a bunch of them on LI, and the food is great too, but also it's certainly not "kosher". FOor me it doesn't matter though.
I found the Ben's (now Zan's) in Lake Grove to be reasonably upscale in appearance, not dinerish at all. It's in a strip mall, to be sure, but on the other hand is next door to a Trader Joe's, and you can't get much more upscale than that :)
Appearance wasn't the only upscale thing. Lunch for three set me back just shy of $100 with the tip, no alcohol. A much better deal in the area is the Curry Club near the Stony Brook LIRR station, where there is an absolutely terrific lunch buffet for ten bucks per person (a couple of old train cars are attached to the building, by the way). There's also Hoshi Sushi on Stony Brook Road, where we go often enough to have our own sets of chopsticks :)
Oh and the one I goto in Bayside is too in a strip mall, I guess they have a thing for malls with "strip" in the name. :P
It has nothing (or very little) to do with glatt. Glatt is a particular (high) standard of kashrut for meat that Sephardim consider the basic requirement but Ashkenazim do not (although some Ashkenazim have adopted glatt as a custom). It just so happens that nearly all reliably kosher meat available in the U.S. is glatt, but many Ashkenazim who currently eat glatt out of necessity would gladly eat non-glatt if it were available. Glatt has nothing to do with whether a restaurant is open on the Sabbath -- in general (and this is a simplification), observant Jews do not eat any food that was cooked on the Sabbath. But that applies to dairy restaurants as well as meat restaurants, and there's no such thing as glatt dairy.
The one in Lake Grove, near the Smith Haven Mall, is now called "Zan's Deli," the result of some sort of dispute among family members, although it seems unchanged otherwise. The family and I went there for lunch about six months ago, before the name change, and we all were most pleased. I had tongue with raisin sauce, which sounds bizaare but was terrific.
By Car:MapQuest Directions
By Transit: Take the s44/s55/s56/s61/91LTD/s79/x17/x31
Also, take the SIR to/from the Eltingville Station and take the s59/s79 busses.
-Chris
i'm looking at an old usgs map and the track layout seems to suggest this, but i'm not sure??
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/212928p-183362c.html
Bus operators and taxi drivers have to deal one-on-one with passengers/customers, not to mention workers in just about any sort of retail business. Asking the same of transit workers is not out of line. Yes, there will be some risks, as this incident proves, but that's unavoidable.
Perhaps they need to change the title, and recruit a different type of employee, one more like a security guard, if they want someone moving around the station to keep people safe. That would be in cases in which the only station employee in a station is outside the booth. Higher pay and different requirements would be appropriate.
As it is, I think they are only implementing it in large stations with many station agents, with some outside the booth.
Having station agents remain locked in armored booths even after they're no longer handling money would create a very bad image. It would be equivalent to saying that stations are dangerous places, too dangerous for MTA employees to be walking around unprotected. Where does that leave passengers?
Yes he does, since even criminals have enough sense not to bother committing a crime that has no chance whatsoever of paying off.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&countryid=US&addtohistory=&searchtab=address&searchtype=address&address=115+Laurel+Hill+Rd&city=Northport&state=ny&zipcode=&search=++Search++
How does the map show/change the abandonment status? I know the map information is online, but it can be out of date, especially for rail rights of way.
wayne
Where on the ROW is it built on? What is it? A house, or one of those lumber companies out there?
That is why there is an S curve just north of 25A on Church Street.
The tracks and RR crossing sign that were on Elwood Road south of 25A were taken out in the 80's and paved over. If you go north on Elwood Road you will notice that the slope of the street levels off from down hill to level for a few feet. That is where the tracks crossed.
The tracks then proceeded northwest over 25A. On the south side of 25A there is now a self-storage place on top of where the track went. 25A has been repaved several times so there is no evidence of the track crossing it anymore. The part from the PJ branch to Elwood road is not readily accesible and probably has houses built on or near it.
1. The spur goes into Northport
2. The current Northport station is really in East Northport, renamed Northport when the spur was abandonned
3. Both stations are east of Greenlawn
When LIRR finally reached Greenlawn, they continued to build. The eventually got into Northport via a track that is now simply the abandonned Northport spur. This was abandonned after LIRR decided to build to Port Jeff through East Northport, instead of simply extending the Northport spur. A while after that, they abandonned the Northport spur and renamed the East Northport station to Northport.
I was looking at the Hudson Line Schedule today and I saw something intresting...
For example MNRR Train 864 departs Poughkeepsie at 1:33pm and arrives New Hamburg at 1:43pm. Now that is a travel time of ten minutes exactly...Now on the other hand... MNRR Train 833 Departs New Hamburg at 3:26pm and Arrives Poughkeepsie at 3:45pm now that is a travel time of 19 minutes... Now why does it take Metro-North 9 Extra minutes to run train north then south...I assure you it can't be Amtrak becuase they don't run every hour up there and it happens to all trains... Also they have two tracks up there so sombody help me...
Dylan
DYLAN
LIRR seems to be the only area commuter railroad that doesn't engage in this practice extensively.
DYLAN
Dylan
As someone who does airline schedules for a living, you don't what you're talking about.
First off, all airline schedules are developed independently for each leg. There's no concept of padding the time to the final station. We don't even know how planning will combine legs to create flights when we develop our schedules.
Second, since on most airlines, crews are paid the greater of scheduled and actual time, there's a very strong financial disincentive to padding schedules.
Third, since it takes so long to turn a plane at a station, any "padding" for delay recovery is put in turn time, not scheduled flight time.
Now if by chance you were referring to situations where the time in one direction is longer than the other, there are a number of reasons for that but the main one is wind. Airplanes fly a fairly constant speed through a moving air mass. So it does take about an hour longer to go from New York to San Francisco than from San Francisco to New York.
Other factors affecting schedule times are airport and airspace congestion which can vary at different times of day and of course from airport to airport. A flight departing JFK at 6pm might have its flight time anticipating 30 minutes of taxi-out time. Move that to 10am and the taxi-out allowance becomes about 15 minutes. A flight departing Albany at any time of day is probably allowed no more than 6 or 7 minutes. OTOH, taxi-in times are fairly constant from airport to airport and throughout the day (although of course there are some exceptions).
I think I'm more of a schedule geek than I am a true train foamer.
CG
It actually makes sense - trains are not allowed to leave any station before the booked time, so you schedule the intermediate stops earlier than you think you can achieve. Thus the train seems to be running late en route. If you didn't do that, the train would perhaps have to wait for scheduled departure time several times in its journey. For example, my regular train to work in the mornings is scheduled ten minutes start-to-start for the Bedford-Wellingborough leg, which is fifteen miles. This is unachievable, so it always leaves Wellingborough "late". But is usually gets into Leicester on time, because there is recovery time in the schedule in the leg between Market Harborough and Leicester.
Of course, if there have been no delays en route, a train then gets into its final destination early - provided there is a vacant platform available for it then!
By ELIZABETH M. GILLESPIE, Associated Press Writer
SEATTLE - Ian Spiers had just hours to finish an assignment for his photography class. He was taking shots of a railroad bridge near the Ballard Locks when an officer with a German shepherd approached him, asked him what he was doing and requested some ID.
Later, he was questioned and photographed by a Homeland Security agent.
It was the second time in less than two months that Spiers had been questioned about taking pictures of a landmark that attracts hundreds of tourists a day, many of whom snap photos of the ships passing between Lake Union and Elliott Bay.
A growing number of photographers around the country have been similarly rousted in recent years as they've tried to take pictures of federal buildings and other major public works, said Donald Winslow, editor of the National Press Photographers Association's magazine.
"We've seen the constant erosion of our civil liberties amid this cry for homeland security by doing things that have an appearance of making us safe, but in reality it's a sham," Winslow said. "No one showed up at the World Trade Center and took photographs from nine different angles before they flew planes into it."
The morning of May 26, Spiers explained he was a photography student at a community college, showed a copy of his assignment, then asked the officer if he was legally obligated to show his ID.
The officer said no and walked away. But soon after, several armed officers approached him, including three from the Seattle Police Department and three from the federal Homeland Security Department.
"I was trying to be calm, but the truth was I was scared out of my mind," Spiers said.
This time, Spiers said, a Seattle police officer told him he had no choice but to show his ID. A Homeland Security agent who flashed his badge told him he had broken a law by taking pictures of a federal facility.
"We've never seen such a law," said Doug Honig, a spokesman for the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites) in Seattle.
Spiers said he complied, spent half an hour answering questions and let a Homeland Security agent photograph him — after being told he had no choice.
The ACLU has written the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which owns and runs the locks, asking for the agency's assurance that Spiers will not be arrested if he returns there.
Corps spokeswoman Patricia Graesser said her agency had no involvement in the incident and questioned an order Spiers said a homeland security agent gave him — that he could not return to the locks with his camera without getting permission in advance.
"Everyone — all members of the public — are welcome on the locks property, and photographs are allowed, and there's no need to get prior permission," she said.
Seattle police spokesman Sean Whitcomb said the department has a duty to respond to reports of suspicious activity.
Calls to the Homeland Security Department were not immediately returned.
In an interview with The Associated Press, Spiers kept his distance from the spot where he was questioned, and wore a button on his camera bag that said: "Annoying but harmless photography student. Do not bend." He made it in early April, after two police officers showed up at his door, saying they were responding to a report about a suspicious man taking pictures at the locks.
Spiers said he'd like to hear one of the officers who questioned him say if they hassled him because his mocha-colored skin and short black hair made him look like a terrorist.
"I'm trying to figure out how not to attract attention," said Spiers, 36. "So far the only thing I can think of is that I can never ever pick up a camera."
In early June, about 100 photographers crowded onto New York City subway trains and snapped pictures of each other in protest of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (news - web sites)'s proposed ban on photography in subways and other public transit.
And Brian Fitzgerald, the chief photographer at the Yakima Herald-Republic, said a uniformed security officer tried to prevent him from taking a picture of an immigration office, citing a "law," then calling it a "directive" that gave the officer the right to confiscate any film with pictures of a federal facility.
An officer in charge eventually let him take his photos, and he's since been told there's no reason he can't take them.
"It's frustrating mostly," Fitzgerald said. "I'm not outraged because I didn't get to the point where I didn't get my photos. It just reminds me again how much disinformation there is, even in these agencies that are supposed to know."
___
By ELIZABETH M. GILLESPIE, Associated Press Writer
SEATTLE - Ian Spiers had just hours to finish an assignment for his photography class. He was taking shots of a railroad bridge near the Ballard Locks when an officer with a German shepherd approached him, asked him what he was doing and requested some ID.
AP Photo
Later, he was questioned and photographed by a Homeland Security agent.
It was the second time in less than two months that Spiers had been questioned about taking pictures of a landmark that attracts hundreds of tourists a day, many of whom snap photos of the ships passing between Lake Union and Elliott Bay.
A growing number of photographers around the country have been similarly rousted in recent years as they've tried to take pictures of federal buildings and other major public works, said Donald Winslow, editor of the National Press Photographers Association's magazine.
"We've seen the constant erosion of our civil liberties amid this cry for homeland security by doing things that have an appearance of making us safe, but in reality it's a sham," Winslow said. "No one showed up at the World Trade Center and took photographs from nine different angles before they flew planes into it."
The morning of May 26, Spiers explained he was a photography student at a community college, showed a copy of his assignment, then asked the officer if he was legally obligated to show his ID.
The officer said no and walked away. But soon after, several armed officers approached him, including three from the Seattle Police Department and three from the federal Homeland Security Department.
"I was trying to be calm, but the truth was I was scared out of my mind," Spiers said.
This time, Spiers said, a Seattle police officer told him he had no choice but to show his ID. A Homeland Security agent who flashed his badge told him he had broken a law by taking pictures of a federal facility.
"We've never seen such a law," said Doug Honig, a spokesman for the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites) in Seattle.
Spiers said he complied, spent half an hour answering questions and let a Homeland Security agent photograph him — after being told he had no choice.
The ACLU has written the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which owns and runs the locks, asking for the agency's assurance that Spiers will not be arrested if he returns there.
Corps spokeswoman Patricia Graesser said her agency had no involvement in the incident and questioned an order Spiers said a homeland security agent gave him — that he could not return to the locks with his camera without getting permission in advance.
"Everyone — all members of the public — are welcome on the locks property, and photographs are allowed, and there's no need to get prior permission," she said.
Seattle police spokesman Sean Whitcomb said the department has a duty to respond to reports of suspicious activity.
Calls to the Homeland Security Department were not immediately returned.
In an interview with The Associated Press, Spiers kept his distance from the spot where he was questioned, and wore a button on his camera bag that said: "Annoying but harmless photography student. Do not bend." He made it in early April, after two police officers showed up at his door, saying they were responding to a report about a suspicious man taking pictures at the locks.
Spiers said he'd like to hear one of the officers who questioned him say if they hassled him because his mocha-colored skin and short black hair made him look like a terrorist.
"I'm trying to figure out how not to attract attention," said Spiers, 36. "So far the only thing I can think of is that I can never ever pick up a camera."
In early June, about 100 photographers crowded onto New York City subway trains and snapped pictures of each other in protest of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (news - web sites)'s proposed ban on photography in subways and other public transit.
And Brian Fitzgerald, the chief photographer at the Yakima Herald-Republic, said a uniformed security officer tried to prevent him from taking a picture of an immigration office, citing a "law," then calling it a "directive" that gave the officer the right to confiscate any film with pictures of a federal facility.
An officer in charge eventually let him take his photos, and he's since been told there's no reason he can't take them.
"It's frustrating mostly," Fitzgerald said. "I'm not outraged because I didn't get to the point where I didn't get my photos. It just reminds me again how much disinformation there is, even in these agencies that are supposed to know."
i've been in hibernation too long. Time to start planning another for september...
But that, evidently, didn't happen. So is this real, or melodrama written to sell papers? It's hard to tell.
Can you give me an example of some chemicals that would work that would escape screening if brought on in sufficient quantities to cause harm to an aircraft? Remember: no nitrates. That’s what the rub-around-the suitcase test is looking for.
However, it’s still a lot of white powder that’s going to be needed to do any serious damage, and you’re not going to be able to get on with anything nitrate. The interesting explosives, like C4, have also amine/amide groups which are detected by the bag-rub-down methods.
I stand by my assertion that this threat is in the very unlikely category.
Take an ordinary BIC or Zippo-type cigarette lighter (you're allowed to carry two onto the plane), and a small can of hairspray (any brand that comes in a metal can with the little aerosol push-button on top).
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
Hold the spray can, oh, about 10 inches behind the lighter, and spray into the lighter's flame.
FLAMETHROWER!!!!
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
Bring the spray can closer as necessary (not too close, or else you blow out the flame, or far worse, the flame jumps back toward, and possibly into, the aerosol can). Depending on the velocity of the spray and the size of the lighter flame, you have a range of a few feet. It's certainly a lot more dangerous (and scary) than virtually any of the pointy metal objects on the TSA's forbidden list.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
If you want things to go up faster, take a bottle of any strong liquor (vodka, whiskey, etc) and douse it on the surface you're looking to light up. Even better, a squirt bottle of lighter fluid (Ronsonol, etc) or gasoline can be disguised as something less incendiary (water, iced tea, applejuice, lemonade). Let's just say that upholstered surfaces in enclosed areas with rapid ventilation systems are extremely vulnerable to just such an attack. Such bottles of flammable liquid can also be fashioned into functional Molotov cocktails with the addition of a small piece of cloth as a wick.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
I will hold no responsibility for dumbasses who set themselves or their home on fire.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
If you're looking for a nice noxious chemical combo, household bleach and ammonia pack quite an interesting punch. That's why you NEVER use them together when cleaning. You can make tablets of potassium or sodium cyanide (which can be disguised, for example, as a bottle of Alka-Seltzers). Dropped into an acidic solution (which can also be disguised), you have the same chemical combination used in the gas chamber to execute death row inmates.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
You can convert a camera's flash mechanism into a marginally effective stun gun - this was discussed to death on slashdot a while back.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
There are an infinite panoply of small, innocuous objects that can be converted into zipguns - basically, insert a round of ammunition (typically .22 or occasionally 9mm, though .45 pistol ammo and .30 rifle rounds can be used as well for increased power) into a cylindrical metal barrel, pull back a springloaded pin and release, and the gun fires (the primer is just a stepped-up version of a toy cap, requiring only a sharp mechanical blow to ignite.) Somewhat larger models (about 0.7 inch diameter) can use a 12-gauge shotgun shell, spewing high-velocity pellets all over the place. The main problem is trying to find a barrel substantial enough to not explode (causing serious injury to the shooter) when the round is fired, particularly for the larger rounds.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
Mini-Mag flashlights are physically almost identical to kubotans (except for the lightbulb at the opposide end), and there are entire martial arts schools built around using kubotans as fighting devices - they can be used to stabilize a closed fist for punching, swung on lanyards, or thrust endwise to strengthen a swinging or chopping blow to the neck or head, for example). $10 Mini-Mags are made of aluminum, but even $2 plastic knockoffs are quite effective. For this reason, they're on the TSA banned list.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
You can kill someone with a soda can - I'll let you figure out the details. You can make small devices which explode on impact after being thrown - remember that the starters on strike-anywhere matches ignite when dragged against any rough surface. Try lighting up a small piece of cotton impregnated with Vasoline. Hypodermic injectors (ok to carry onto a plane with doctor's prescription) can be filled with a number of deadly substances - made much more deadly when injected into the bloodstream.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
And you can buy nonmetallic knives Rambo would be proud to own, on the internet for less than $25. Yes, they have legitimate uses - in areas of high magnetic field, in environments that may be exposed to strong electromagnetic fields, for use on objects that may be connected to high voltage sources, in the disposal of bombs and sensitive electronic equipment that may be sent on the "fritz" by the proximity of a metal blade, for example. And yes, they're legal (as far as I know) in all states except California (where they must have a metal retaining ring so they will set off metal detectors), subject only to to the same regulations that would pertain to a comparable metallic blade. They're sold under the name "CIA Letter Opener."
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
The scary part is, everything I just mentioned is pretty much common knowledge somewhere or another (and there's plenty more that I haven't shared, and undoubtedly plenty more that I simply don't know about). bin Laden's guys know all of this as well. It just illustrates to me how pointless most of these "screening" security measures are - other than to eliminate large weapons (e.g. axes, hatchets, chainsaws and teh like), illegal firearms, and large-scale explosive devices, pretty much any innocuous object can be readily engineered into a killing device more effective than many objects that are explicitly prohibited. And innocuous individual objects (for which the carriers would have legitimate reasons for possession, or else can be easily concealed or disguised to evade detection by all but the absolutely most invasive screening procedures) can be combined to yield devastatingly effective weapons.
And not a new idea, either; I remember people using these makeshift flamethrowers when I was in college, many moons ago. The smell that they put out is nearly asphyxiating.
Mini-Mag flashlights are physically almost identical to kubotans (except for the lightbulb at the opposide end), and there are entire martial arts schools built around using kubotans as fighting devices - they can be used to stabilize a closed fist for punching, swung on lanyards, or thrust endwise to strengthen a swinging or chopping blow to the neck or head, for example). $10 Mini-Mags are made of aluminum, but even $2 plastic knockoffs are quite effective. For this reason, they're on the TSA banned list.
A tightly rolled magazine can be a very dangerous weapon, for example if jammed end-first into someone's face or neck. And a bar of soap in a sock makes a highly effective black jack.
Reminds me of Full Metal Jacket...
A roll of quarters is great to stabilize a fist or to hold in the hand with the end protruding from between the thumb and forefinger, to be swung hook-style against the side of someone's head - if proper contact is made, one blow can be fatal (or at least enough to cause immediate unconsciousness). I actually brought one on a plane once - got through post-9/11 security just ok (though they did examine it and thought about it for a few seconds before waving me along), and it's probably a more effective weapon than a small non-locking pocketknife.
Just a little while ago I was experimenting with an empty Coke can. I made a saw-like blade by twisting and tearing it (bare hands, no tools, took less than 30 seconds). Then to test it out I lightly drew my finger across the edge and gave myself a nice nasty paper cut. Now, increase the pressure and bring it across someone's face or throat and you'll put Mohammad Atta's box cutter to shame...
Bending a can like that is a noisy process, so it would be difficult to accomplish on an airplane or other secure location.
Of course the more likely explanation is that they were a group of musicians, who maybe had a couple drinks, and all were buddy-buddy with each other. It's coincidental that they happened to be of Middle Eastern descent (and if they weren't, all of the behavior described would certainly not arouse that kind of suspicion, even if it evoked odd stares).
No one seems to know what's the deal with it, exagerrated, real, whatever. What's actually scary about the story is that it's too perfect on how it's all planned out to the detail, and you'd say that's way too perfect on how it's played out. Then you think isn't that the point? Shoulnd't these guys have it all planned out that perfect? They ususally do dont' they?
I have no firm opinion either way it's so tricky on this one. But I'm curious.
The officer said no and walked away."
The office was incorrect. I believe the supreme court recently ruled that a person does not have the right to refuse to identify themself to a police officer.
The Supreme Court ruled that such a requirement is not unconstitutional. Not all states have such a requirement.
I believe the SCOTUS case was concerned primarily with Terry stops - cases where the officer has probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed and is attempting to ascertain the identity of an individual they're speaking to.
Of course the officer doesn't pay you the courtesy of telling you he's executing a Terry stop, or whether he's just fishing for information.
i've been in hibernation too long. Time to start planning another for september...
They are known as Detonators in other places and were carried by Train Crews mainly but also Track Workers and to draw attention to Caution Signals during 'fog and falling snow'
But that, evidently, didn't happen. So is this real, or melodrama written to sell papers? It's hard to tell.
Can you give me an example of some chemicals that would work that would escape screening if brought on in sufficient quantities to cause harm to an aircraft? Remember: no nitrates. That’s what the rub-around-the suitcase test is looking for.
However, it’s still a lot of white powder that’s going to be needed to do any serious damage, and you’re not going to be able to get on with anything nitrate. The interesting explosives, like C4, have also amine/amide groups which are detected by the bag-rub-down methods.
I stand by my assertion that this threat is in the very unlikely category.
Take an ordinary BIC or Zippo-type cigarette lighter (you're allowed to carry two onto the plane), and a small can of hairspray (any brand that comes in a metal can with the little aerosol push-button on top).
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
Hold the spray can, oh, about 10 inches behind the lighter, and spray into the lighter's flame.
FLAMETHROWER!!!!
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
Bring the spray can closer as necessary (not too close, or else you blow out the flame, or far worse, the flame jumps back toward, and possibly into, the aerosol can). Depending on the velocity of the spray and the size of the lighter flame, you have a range of a few feet. It's certainly a lot more dangerous (and scary) than virtually any of the pointy metal objects on the TSA's forbidden list.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
If you want things to go up faster, take a bottle of any strong liquor (vodka, whiskey, etc) and douse it on the surface you're looking to light up. Even better, a squirt bottle of lighter fluid (Ronsonol, etc) or gasoline can be disguised as something less incendiary (water, iced tea, applejuice, lemonade). Let's just say that upholstered surfaces in enclosed areas with rapid ventilation systems are extremely vulnerable to just such an attack. Such bottles of flammable liquid can also be fashioned into functional Molotov cocktails with the addition of a small piece of cloth as a wick.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
I will hold no responsibility for dumbasses who set themselves or their home on fire.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
If you're looking for a nice noxious chemical combo, household bleach and ammonia pack quite an interesting punch. That's why you NEVER use them together when cleaning. You can make tablets of potassium or sodium cyanide (which can be disguised, for example, as a bottle of Alka-Seltzers). Dropped into an acidic solution (which can also be disguised), you have the same chemical combination used in the gas chamber to execute death row inmates.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
You can convert a camera's flash mechanism into a marginally effective stun gun - this was discussed to death on slashdot a while back.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
There are an infinite panoply of small, innocuous objects that can be converted into zipguns - basically, insert a round of ammunition (typically .22 or occasionally 9mm, though .45 pistol ammo and .30 rifle rounds can be used as well for increased power) into a cylindrical metal barrel, pull back a springloaded pin and release, and the gun fires (the primer is just a stepped-up version of a toy cap, requiring only a sharp mechanical blow to ignite.) Somewhat larger models (about 0.7 inch diameter) can use a 12-gauge shotgun shell, spewing high-velocity pellets all over the place. The main problem is trying to find a barrel substantial enough to not explode (causing serious injury to the shooter) when the round is fired, particularly for the larger rounds.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
Mini-Mag flashlights are physically almost identical to kubotans (except for the lightbulb at the opposide end), and there are entire martial arts schools built around using kubotans as fighting devices - they can be used to stabilize a closed fist for punching, swung on lanyards, or thrust endwise to strengthen a swinging or chopping blow to the neck or head, for example). $10 Mini-Mags are made of aluminum, but even $2 plastic knockoffs are quite effective. For this reason, they're on the TSA banned list.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
You can kill someone with a soda can - I'll let you figure out the details. You can make small devices which explode on impact after being thrown - remember that the starters on strike-anywhere matches ignite when dragged against any rough surface. Try lighting up a small piece of cotton impregnated with Vasoline. Hypodermic injectors (ok to carry onto a plane with doctor's prescription) can be filled with a number of deadly substances - made much more deadly when injected into the bloodstream.
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
And you can buy nonmetallic knives Rambo would be proud to own, on the internet for less than $25. Yes, they have legitimate uses - in areas of high magnetic field, in environments that may be exposed to strong electromagnetic fields, for use on objects that may be connected to high voltage sources, in the disposal of bombs and sensitive electronic equipment that may be sent on the "fritz" by the proximity of a metal blade, for example. And yes, they're legal (as far as I know) in all states except California (where they must have a metal retaining ring so they will set off metal detectors), subject only to to the same regulations that would pertain to a comparable metallic blade. They're sold under the name "CIA Letter Opener."
WARNING :::: AT YOUR OWN RISK ::::::: YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ::::::
The scary part is, everything I just mentioned is pretty much common knowledge somewhere or another (and there's plenty more that I haven't shared, and undoubtedly plenty more that I simply don't know about). bin Laden's guys know all of this as well. It just illustrates to me how pointless most of these "screening" security measures are - other than to eliminate large weapons (e.g. axes, hatchets, chainsaws and teh like), illegal firearms, and large-scale explosive devices, pretty much any innocuous object can be readily engineered into a killing device more effective than many objects that are explicitly prohibited. And innocuous individual objects (for which the carriers would have legitimate reasons for possession, or else can be easily concealed or disguised to evade detection by all but the absolutely most invasive screening procedures) can be combined to yield devastatingly effective weapons.
And not a new idea, either; I remember people using these makeshift flamethrowers when I was in college, many moons ago. The smell that they put out is nearly asphyxiating.
Mini-Mag flashlights are physically almost identical to kubotans (except for the lightbulb at the opposide end), and there are entire martial arts schools built around using kubotans as fighting devices - they can be used to stabilize a closed fist for punching, swung on lanyards, or thrust endwise to strengthen a swinging or chopping blow to the neck or head, for example). $10 Mini-Mags are made of aluminum, but even $2 plastic knockoffs are quite effective. For this reason, they're on the TSA banned list.
A tightly rolled magazine can be a very dangerous weapon, for example if jammed end-first into someone's face or neck. And a bar of soap in a sock makes a highly effective black jack.
Reminds me of Full Metal Jacket...
A roll of quarters is great to stabilize a fist or to hold in the hand with the end protruding from between the thumb and forefinger, to be swung hook-style against the side of someone's head - if proper contact is made, one blow can be fatal (or at least enough to cause immediate unconsciousness). I actually brought one on a plane once - got through post-9/11 security just ok (though they did examine it and thought about it for a few seconds before waving me along), and it's probably a more effective weapon than a small non-locking pocketknife.
Just a little while ago I was experimenting with an empty Coke can. I made a saw-like blade by twisting and tearing it (bare hands, no tools, took less than 30 seconds). Then to test it out I lightly drew my finger across the edge and gave myself a nice nasty paper cut. Now, increase the pressure and bring it across someone's face or throat and you'll put Mohammad Atta's box cutter to shame...
Bending a can like that is a noisy process, so it would be difficult to accomplish on an airplane or other secure location.
Of course the more likely explanation is that they were a group of musicians, who maybe had a couple drinks, and all were buddy-buddy with each other. It's coincidental that they happened to be of Middle Eastern descent (and if they weren't, all of the behavior described would certainly not arouse that kind of suspicion, even if it evoked odd stares).
No one seems to know what's the deal with it, exagerrated, real, whatever. What's actually scary about the story is that it's too perfect on how it's all planned out to the detail, and you'd say that's way too perfect on how it's played out. Then you think isn't that the point? Shoulnd't these guys have it all planned out that perfect? They ususally do dont' they?
I have no firm opinion either way it's so tricky on this one. But I'm curious.
Is there a mixup between the external speaker wiring and the interior wiring? Can they be controlled separately, with CRs not aware of this (thus only enabling external speakers)?
\\Julian
The ones on the R-62s...some are okay but for the most part, you'll probably have a better chance of hearing the announcement coming from the exterior speaker than the interior one. And even if you do, it'll come out sounding partially muffled.
If I'm at Grand Central - 42 Street, and I want the <7>, and I get down to the platform and the train has mostly entered the station...well, you can't trust the side rollsigns on the (7). (Sometimes, you can't even trust the front bullet.) The only way to know for sure is to listen to the C/R announcement, but to do that, I have to actually get onto the train first! And sometimes the train is noisy, and/or the com system ain't working, as I mentioned before. It's really a pain.
I ride the (3) ocassionally, and the announcements sound clear as a bell on the R-62s.
If you're boarding the 7 at Grand Central, you still have four more stops to figure out if your train is a local or an express. And, since you want the express, the worst that happens even if you never hear an announcement is that your ride takes a few minutes longer. Express/local announcements are only absolutely critical at Queensboro Plaza on outbound expresses.
David
I'd estimate that the PA is barely audible inside most of the cars. On some, including the one I was on this afternoon, it's too loud. Once in a while, it's just right.
No you're not.
(Dunno if it was an R62 though...)
I gather you like anime'?
Adjusted for inflation, I would hazard a guess it is cheaper today then it was 30 or even 70 years ago. What has driven up costs are the environmental regulations, mitigation, liability, relocation, public hearing processes, changes made and or adds to the projects as the result of the public hearing processes . . .
John
Are there any studies or articles that address this?
I believe that this is an important area of concern. If subway construction costs can be reduced, more subways should get built.
One thing that is expensive is doing reconstruction on an operating transit system. Construction workers have to set up, work, tear down, set up, work, tear down. They are highly unproductive.
Another thing that hurts is digging in a complicated city, with utilities and accomodation of street access.
Another problem is antiquated work rules.
So on the 1/9 at the WTC, you didn't need to dig, the railroad was not operating, and the bullshit was worked around. The result -- fast cheap construction.
Yet the SAS will not be operating either, and it will be built with TBMs. Yet they are talking about $4 billion for three stations. Why can't that $4 billion get us all the way to 125th?
What type of rules? How could they be changed?
(What type of rules? How could they be changed?)
One example I know of. Electricians are very expensive. Sometimes, on large jobs, they insist that work that any laborer could do "belongs" to their union, and they refuse to let others do it. But there is a shortage of electricians, so that means you cannot get electrical work done.
At other times, on small jobs, they say that work that is not strictly electrical is not their job, so you have to have someone else there to do work they could have done themselves.
It all adds up to wasted time.
And when there's a shortage of skilled people who can pass the LICENSE exam, then you really don't want your electricians doing plumbing when they could be moving on to the next job. Here, you can blame the educational system and a yuppie society that looks down upon people who have tangible skills rather than shuffling paper. New York's BOCES program is a disaster, and once again society is highly biased against people who earn their living with tools and their bare hands instead of shuffling paper.
We were once a nation of craftspeople with INCREDIBLE skills. But such was beneath our collective "dignity" ... I'm sure China will be happy to supply electricians. :(
Don't mind me, it's a personal issue. We need more plumbers than lawyers but TRY to sell parents on the concept that unplugging drains is an HONORABLE career for little Johnny or Jane. :(
At the same time, there are the “you need an electrician to plug in an extension cord” sort of rules that drive people crazy. I’ve seen that myself when the organization I worked for had to pay an electrician for 4 hours (minimum, on overtime) when all he had to do was plug in a piece of computer equipment to a pre-installed outlet, just because it was under a raised floor. I absolutely understand the need for the electrician to install the outlet and run the cable back to the breaker box but the rest is just padding.
The unions have set up a system that drives up the costs and requires more workers than common sense would allow
As for the shortage of electricians. Well the union WON"T ALLOW LICENCE UNION ELECTRICIANS FROM OTHER AREAS TO WORK IN NYC driving up the hourly wage, stalling projects and driving up the cost
for example many projects end up waiting for the electrician, paying other workers who are waiting for the electrician to stand around.
The work rules are designed to drive up costs.
In a HOME situation, it's unlikely that a circuit would end up with a load that could start a fire, but once again I'd look to the insurance companies who want those rules enforced and a neck to grab if anything bursts into flame. Otherwise, I'd agree fully. But having experience in this area, there IS a point to it ...
Absolutely. It’s called a circuit breaker!
I understand temporary power. I also understand that contractors want to get their portion of the job completed so they can be off the site and be paid. But the “I am the only one who can plug your power saw in” attitude needs to go.
I can understand pre-arrival questions: “What power tools do you anticipate needing and what will be your total current draw?” That’s advance planning. That would allow the service provider to work out what electical requirements are needed (and penalize the subcontractors who lie…)
But “You need the Local 3 guy to plug your power saw in” is way beyond the curve!
Fiddlesticks, horsehockey and other equally silly-sounding words. Many moons ago, I put a 6K dimmer card on a counter in front of a Local 3 member, who then proceeded to argue with me over the thing's existence, the fact that there were 5 more just like it (one difference - those five were still working) in a single box back at the theatre and that I didn't need/have an IBEW member install the damned thing. I wasted 30 minutes with this "professional" in a crowded shop because he wouldn't believe an amateur.
Last summer, I had some major renovation work done in my house. The GC was great; the plumbers were from Oz; the carpenters were amazed when I pulled out old show blueprints to show what I had built; the electricians - local 3 again - were blithering idiots who couldn't read a blueprint to save their souls. As a result, I have a light switch in the laundry room that can only be reached by climbing on top of the washer and under cabinet light controls that are inside an appliance garage (which had to be removed for my elec. inspection - NYC code says you can't do that). As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't mean a thing if you can do it fast, if you can't do it right, and most of my experiences with "professional" electricians has led me to believe they can't do it right.
I find it hard to believe that the insurance companies have come up with the idea of electricians plugging in extension cords for carpenters - theatrical lighting is all considered 'temporary' and therefore outside of IBEW's purview and I know that all the off- and off-off B'way houses, as well as most college theatres, are well insured, even though most of their installations are done by Joe BeerCan (actually two theatres and one college theatre have installations done by Alex VodkaBottle).
One of the most ridicules ones in my opinion are the rules involving power for tools and equipment. Under present labor union rules a carpenter can not plug in saw without first having and electrician plug in an extension cord at the point where the power is and run it to where the carpenter wants to use the saw. When the carpenter moves the saw to a new location once again the electrician is called in to relocate extension cord.
There are many rules involving trade skills that prohibit one trade from doing his job more efficiently because he has to get someone else from a different trade skill to perform a task before he can continue working on what ever he is working on.
Most of these type of rules are their basically to protect the turf of one trade skill from another. They have little to do with the efficiently executing the project and or getting a particular task done by employees of a given trade skill.
John
Welcome to New York :(
That’s what mitigation is. Moneys spent on item that were either part of original project or added to project that have little of nothing to do with the basic purpose of the project.
John
--Mark
So the same issue that affected the R-110 test trains and the first R-142s/R143s ("third rail issues" in the Rockaways), affected the BU's too?
--Mark
Yes. more or less.
Those are the BU cars. I may try and attend one of next weekend's trips. It's probably that tomorrow's will be ruined by rain. :(
Only 1227 does?
(Scatman Crothers' famous line in "Silver Streak")
--Mark
When it's in Washington ;)
The bit about the subway shutting down in the rain when it's in Washington was a bit of sarcasm, involving that incident several months ago when the Metro shut down when a hurricane was forecast.
Chuck Greene
You're just jealous because they wouldn't let YOU run 'em ... for those who don't know the inside joke here, BMTman has *way* more hours in as an experienced motorman on gate cars than ANYBODY in C division.
--Mark
That would DEFINITELY be in get-a-life territory :)
--Mark
This is what I'd want (when either the R142s or R142As go to Corona):
Send the R142s from the (4) to Corona, the R62As from Corona to Westhester, and Westchester's R142As to the (4). Westchester doesn't do too good a job maintaining the R142As (bad light tubes, trash on the floor, dirty strip maps), but they maintained the R62As well when they were there.
What about you?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
They only started to lay the foundation for the new Maintenance Building. Ben, did you go to today's MoD trip?
These MOD trips are so damn elusive to me. I wont give up though!
The reconstruction isn't even done yet.
This is just for AFTER the reconstruction is done. Let's just hope WESTCHESTER doesn't make it too hard for the poor old maintenance crews in the (4) yards to clean up after their act.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Oh and about the MoD trips, do your best to check information on the trips and routes on here.
as fot the post,i'd like to see ENY yard get the R32's and the R40's.
til next time
I think somebody from Westchester Yard noticed my rant on them a while back, and did something about it. I haven't seen a dirty strip map in a while.
As for the bad light tubes, that's not Westchester's fault. They didn't build the trains, nor did they create the light bulbs. Besides, I don't see bad lights on their trains very often.
And as for the trash on the floor....every car has trash on the floor. That's a rider issue, and a custodial issue. The trains are sweeped at the terminals.
Not for long. It has been posted that an 11-car R142 or R142A consist has been tested on the 7 but had clearance issues in the Steinway tunnel. And they posted pics to prove it.
Regards,
Jimmy
The pictures shown on SubTalk were of the 11-car R-142A sitting peacefully at Corona Yard.
A sign says 'To increase ventilation lower this window'.
This gives me an excuse to post the fact that currently on the London Underground website there is an interesting press release about "air cooling" - they don't call it air-conditioning - on the London Underground, which notoriously doesn't have a/c on the trains. See:
http://tube.tfl.gov.uk/content/pressreleases/0407/15.asp
A year ago, Mayor Ken Livingstone issued a challenge to people to come up with ideas for workable ways of cooling London Underground trains. Apparently there have been 3,400 responses!
Then for July and August the following service pattern should operate:
Tube Lines
BAKERLOO LINE
No service beyond Queen's Park, except for depot journeys
CENTRAL LINE
No service East of Liverpool St - Bethnal Green Station closed
NORTHERN LINE
Edgware / Mill Hill E branches only at N end.
PICCADILLY LINE
All trains to Heathrow
DRAIN
normal, um, errr, good service
VICTORIA LINE
normal, um, errr, good service
JUBILEE LINE
No service beyond West Hampstead
Surface Lines
Baker St - Amersham Fast
Chesham Shuttle
Baker St - Watford Semi-Fast
Aldgate - Uxbridge
Hammersmith - Whitechapel/Barking
Rayner's La - Edgware Rd
Ealing Broadway - Plaistow/Barking
Richmond - Upminster
Wimbledon - Edgware Rd
Wimbledon - Tower Hill - Stanmore (Jubilee Line stops)
Whitechapel - New X/New X Gate
Extra Surface/BR Lines
Euston DC Lines (increased frequency with short turns to replace Bakerloo intervals)
extra stops at West Ruislip and South Ruislip on the Chiltern Line
Liv St - Epping/Hainault/Woodford
Moorgate - Fisbury Park - High Barnet
Moorgate - Kentish Town - Barking (DMU alternative to Victoria Line)
Liv St - Chingford increased service
You cannot be seeerious! The A stock is over forty years old. All of these classes are due for replacement (by new stock with "air-cooling") in the next five-ten years. And build some more stock to a 30+-year-old design, which couldn't be ready much before the entry inot service of the first of the new stock (2009)?
"Extra Surface/BR Lines"
"Euston DC Lines (increased frequency with short turns to replace Bakerloo intervals)" - maybe, if Silverlink has enough rolling stock and staff
"Extra stops at West Ruislip and South Ruislip on the Chiltern Line" - doable, but there is hardly a tube level of frequency on the Chiltern line.
"Liv St - Epping/Hainault/Woodford" - So you've rebuilt the connection from the GE to Leytonstone, yes, but presumably with no flying junction - interesting effects on timekeeping of the main line out of Liverpool Street. And, um, Liv St-Stratford has overhead wire AC electrification while the Central Line has LU third and fourth rail DC. Um, rolling stock for this service??
"Moorgate - Fisbury Park - High Barnet" You have put the track back between Finsbury Park and East Finchley. But again, no flyover at Finsbury Park, with baleful effects on everything out of Kings Cross.
Again, what sort of electrification? What rolling stock?
"Moorgate - Kentish Town - Barking (DMU alternative to Victoria Line)" - Um, Murphy's builder's yard goes over where the south-to-east curve north of Kentish Town used to be. Murphy's just might object to the track going back in.....
"Liv St - Chingford increased service" - doable, provided that the rolling stock and staff are available.
And all of this just for two months a year until a solution to a/c on the deep tubes is found. But then, you were only joking, James, weren't you?
The Class 170s coming off MML. Either that or 47s and Mk II Stock.
"Moorgate - Fisbury Park - High Barnet" You have put the track back between Finsbury Park and East Finchley. But again, no flyover at Finsbury Park, with baleful effects on everything out of Kings Cross.
Again, what sort of electrification? What rolling stock?
There's definitely a dive-under at the southern end. There looks like there used to be one at the northern end too on whatever the OS are calling their 1:25000 maps these days. As far as electrification goes, it would be 3rd/4th Rail (newly installed from East Finchley to Drayton Park). It would use some of that extra C Stock.
And all of this just for two months a year until a solution to a/c on the deep tubes is found. But then, you were only joking, James, weren't you?
Damn, you noticed. Actually, there were one or two serious ideas in there... (mainly Wimbledon - Stanmore and Rayner's La - Edgware Rd).
Me: "Um, rolling stock for this service??"
Rail Blue: "The Class 170s coming off MML."
That's all of 44 cars; say four six-car and four five-car trains. Eight short (admittedly air-conditioned) trains to handle the whole rush-hour loading of the entire eastern end of the Central Line. I think the customers might prefer their present non-a/c tube trains to the crush conditions that would result!
Rail Blue: "Either that or 47s and Mk II Stock."
Loco-hauled main line stock, with doors only at the ends of the cars, on a tube line with closely-spaced stations. Would do interesting things to dwell times.... Not to mention the less-than-sparkling acceleration.
Rail Blue: "Damn, you noticed. Actually, there were one or two serious ideas in there... (mainly Wimbledon - Stanmore and Rayner's La - Edgware Rd)"
"Wimbledon - Stanmore": So you take the present Wimbledon-Tower Hill service of the District Line, extend it past Tower Hill and curve it round the Circle Line (presumably replacing the Circle Line, to get the track capacity needed?) to Baker Street, then up the Met to Finchley Road, and then across on to the local tracks to take over the northern end of the Jubilee Line. But at the same time you are terminating all Jubilee Line trains at West Hampstead, a through station consisting of just one island platform. How many tph do you suppose the Jubilee line and your Wimbledon-Stanmore service could handle at West Hampstead? This is a *serious* suggestion?
"Rayner's Lane to Edgware Road": Presumably Uxbridge would get the Met only, a reduced peak-hour service? This new service (presumably badged as District Line) would go Rayner's Lane-Acton Town-(via the District Line tracks, i.e. local)-Earls Court-High St Ken-Edgware Road. A real nowhere to nowhere service! And assuming it takes the Circle Line capacity between High St Ken and Edgware Road, with the Circle not operating (see above), there is no service between Gloucester Road and High St Ken at all, and only the Hammersmith & City line (6 tph) between Edgware Road and Baker Street.
You cannot be serious!
Did anyone win the prise of 100,000 BPS??
The press release said that the most likely contenders were still being investigated. It was issued on the first anniversary of the challenge being issued, to explain why they haven't decided on a winrer yet (so many more entries than anticipated).
However, it’s a lot of work and a lot of energy for the three days each year when London actually gets hot!
as for the OP's question, maybe places like india, where you not only have open windows, but doorless doors, and sometimes ppl sitting on top of the (diesel and steam) trains becasue it's just too crowded inside.
I do miss the 312s from Liverpool Street eastwards. Windows in all the right places, smooth ride and comfy seats. They never seemed to break down either.
Annoyingly there are bars across many of the windows. Must be to keep the wild animals from Portsmouth in ;-)
A recent visit to my home town showed plenty of slam-doors still operating, which is interesting since they are supposed to become illegal from the end of September. The replacements are on the property - sitting in sidings around Brighton, for example - has the problem of inadequate power supplies for these watt-guzzlers been solved?
I can’t remember the number of times I would have my head out of the window. That was real railfanning!
The officer said no and walked away."
The office was incorrect. I believe the supreme court recently ruled that a person does not have the right to refuse to identify themself to a police officer.
The Supreme Court ruled that such a requirement is not unconstitutional. Not all states have such a requirement.
I believe the SCOTUS case was concerned primarily with Terry stops - cases where the officer has probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed and is attempting to ascertain the identity of an individual they're speaking to.
Of course the officer doesn't pay you the courtesy of telling you he's executing a Terry stop, or whether he's just fishing for information.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/212783p-183235c.html
I'm surprised that the MTA doesn't have a video camera panning the fare control area in a station. That would be one way to get the goods on these people.
Several months ago there was a TA cop who tried to break up a group of swipers at the old WTC station on the E. The swipers jumped the cop. I think an off-duty cop passing by saved him from being beaten.
It should be made illegal to pay a swiper for one's entry into the system. As far as I know, there's no such prohibition now. Large posters in stations should announce the policy. You are correct in pointing out that most swipers probably are low-lives who aren't much concerned with getting caught. Most passengers, however, are generally law-abiding and will avoid doing something they know is illegal.
It is illegal. It's called fare evasion.
I have seen mid-size posters in subway cars that say it is illegal to accept a swipe.
It is illegal. It's called fare evasion.
I have seen mid-size posters in subway cars that say it is illegal to accept a swipe.
I'm not so sure that accepting a swipe actually is illegal. As far as I know (and no, I'm not certain), as long as you enter through a turnstile you're legally in the clear. Note, in this context, that those anti-swiping posters are somewhat vague.
Did I break the law?
Was that the western most HEET at the 35th St entrance? That one is always acting up.
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't "exit swipers" realize that by "sharing" their fare, they're cutting into TA revenue and ultimately hurt themselves?
The only exit swiping is when disabled customers with a certain type of disabled metrocard can swipe at an auto gate to exit the system.
Sometimes when people exit at a turnstile they swipe their metrocard so they can get atransfer for a bus. By doing this they won't be able to make a transfer to a bus or train later when they get off the bus.
You've heard of "random acts of kindness" - such as the driver ahead of you paying his toll and yours on the bridge or turnpike, even though he doesn't know you at all.
If I swipe my card through the entry gate and leave without taking the subway at all and you enter the gate instead, it was a gift.
Ok, thats mostly impossible for NYCTA stations, though its run mostly like that on Septa.
And please stop giving bull about doing that to catch the train, this aint a RR, its not like you gotta wait 30Min for the next train.
And sometimes they'll just hold on to their money and just run thru the gate.
And that beanie is no bull!
I dont know what planet your from, but the one I'm living on, and in the state of NY, you dont see many people run through the gate just to catch a train(except for the few exceptions, but theres more then Half the people that dont do that). Its even on the posters saying that buying a swipe is against the law. Ever read the signs?
Note that at times it's a scheduled 20-minute wait for the next train, and I know I've had the experience of waiting 40 minutes for such a train, so it's not entirely a false instinct for people to always want to catch THIS train at all costs. If NYC had real-time arrival information displays to tell you that, indeed, there's another train about 4 minutes away, people might not be like that, but on most lines it'll be on the order of decades before such displays are installed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was at Gun Hill Road awhile ago, took photos, got stopped by the clerk, and some ass jumped the gate. And no, there was definitly no train. So not everybody has that rotten excuse.
But I got a store around the corner anyways, so I pick up a 20.00 card from them before taking the bus to Main St station.
Theres no excuse for jumping the gate, theres plenty of ways to get a farecard:
Stores
Booth
MVM's
MVM's for Credit Cards only
And I doubt there all busy at the same time.
"I did run under the turnstile one time when my Metro Card malfunctioned."
Well thats understandable as you atleast "tried" to pay. I too have had cards that gave me errors, thankfully it only happaned at times on the bus rather then the train.
"Don't tell me you haven't at one time or another wanted to get some where and something or someone was keeping you from doing it."
Yeah it happaned quite a few times pre-MVM's and such, but I dont jump the styles, I'll leave that to the people who think the systems a Uranel.
"Who are you anyway, JOB?"
I assume your asking somebody else and not me.
And when I lived in Brooklyn, before the MVM's/Metrocards and during the Metrocard period, I waited on line even when a train came, and so did everybody else. Stop with you ignorance, you think just because a trains there everybodys gonna run for it, even if that means jumping the gate. Well a good portion doesnt do that. And I keep saying that I didnt say nobody does that, so stop leading it on because thats the way you act at it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Whenever I enter the subway, the vast majority of people who enter with me go straight to the turnstiles with their MetroCards. Only a few have to stop at the booth or machine.
As I said elsewhere, I'm not so certain. As long as you enter through a turnstile following the swipe of a valid card, you may be legally okay. Morally, of course, it's a different story.
So now those idiots are getting free room and board in the joint.
I applaud the booth agent for defending MTA and its customers' best interest.
I have always maintained that "swipe sellers" are criminals who vandalize MetroCard vending machines, steal from all of us and hurt people's sense of safety in the subway.
I have, on two separate occasions, had "swipers" (one in Atlanta) arrested and removed from the transit station and would not hesitate to do it again. A certain percentage of them commit other crimes too, and I don't want anybody like that trespassing in a station I use.
The second time was in NY. I backed away from the turnstile in question, went around the corner and directed a police oficer over to the area. Problem solved.
I think booth clerks should do more, but after this burn incident; what is there to do? I suppose rider vigilance is needed.
it's not worth it to try and be a hero because someone is charging other riders a dollar to get in the system.......what are you personally getting out of trying to stop a swiper from doing that? you aren't getting a reward or anything.....i can see if you tell the police, but to try and stop them? come on......with the number of incidents that go on in the subway, i don't blame riders for not speaking up......sometimes, just minding your own business is the best way to go, and if they get caught, they get caught...........
If he does get caught, instead of a minor offense he'll probably be charged with arson and maybe attempted murder. What a schmuck.
-Broadway Buffer
But the market at $2 is far smaller than the market at $1, since the legitimate competition is charging $1.67.
Halon itself is something of a health hazard. But when you have to put out a big pool of flaming gasoline in an enclosed area, I don't think anyone would complain.
Lisa, if you're out there somewhere let us know how you and the baby are!
You might recall my comments here about the American Sikh who got stepped on for wearing his turban on the 4 train recently. New York was always a place where people from all over the world could feel welcome and pretty safe. I'd hate to think that the hatred that America seems all about lately is turning into such a vicious malignancy. :(
You might be right, Selkirk. I seem to remember that in September 2001 at least one Sikh shopkeeper in the USA was actually murdered by someone who thought his turban indicated that he was a Muslim. (Of course, he didn't deserve to be murdered even if he had been a Muslim.) I also remember reading the story of a Muslim paramedic (of Pakistani parentage) who was among those killed on 9/11, having hurried to the WTC to offer his professional help to the wounded on hearing of the first attack.
The racist right in the UK is equally incapable of distinguishing between different religious and racial groups - they tend to lump togther all people whose ancestors came from the Indian subcontinent, regardless of whether they are Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs or Christians. In the eyes of such bigots, anyone who is different from "us" is fair game for attack.
The worst I've encountered has been only a few dirty looks from the swipe-seller, and some bad-mouthing about depriving him of an (illegal) income by using my own (employee) MetroCard.
Chuck Greene
We had heard from operators along the line that the South Channel Bridge got stuck on Thursday as well, and that took 5 hours to resolve!
--Mark
(Or the Coney Island Creek bridge?)
I'm praying that the J line is on next weekend's itinerary. The Rockaways are nice, but not appropriate for this equipment.
Cutting Irons and a hammer got the other to come apart & go back togather. The operator who put them back togather Saturday did it as if he does it every day ! (the rest of the crew seemed impressed with his skill too)
Wait a minute. 484 and 100 were at the points while 401 and 1575 were in the middle. Unless, of course, the conductor's station wasn't in the middle of the train...
Actually, if Dougie were to be conductor on those cars on Oct. 28-29, that would be great, especially if I were to luck out and catch that train. I'd probably spend more time in the middle of the train than at the railfan window.
Wanna bet that train will run on either the A or D then?
Dougie has more R-9 experience than people give him credit for.
The BU/Q cars use a van Dorn link pin coupler. The adapter
mates with the H2A head and presents a Van Dorn link which can
be mated with the coupler. The adapter breaks out the two
tappet valves from the face of the H2 coupling to individual
"glad-hand" hose couplings.
There was extreme difficulty getting them UN-coupled after the
lunch break.
the difficulty was in getting the BQs to take power correctly.
The Rockaways are nice, but not appropriate for this equipment.
1200 and 1400 series BU cars operated on those tracks from 1906
to about 1918 under a joint trackage rights arrangement with
the LIRR.
Where was the connection? The Fulton St. line extension from Grant Ave didn't open until 1915.
July 17th, 1898 saw the first joint service between the Brooklyn Elevated Railway and the LIRR. The Chestnut Street incline opened connecting the Broadway - Brooklyn El to the LIRR at Atlantic Avenue and Rockaway Avenue. El trains ran through to Rockaway Park. On October 4th, LIRR trains ran through service from Broadway Ferry to Jamaica using the incline. This service lasted only three months, ending January 10th, 1899.
With BRT control came electrification and through services on the Els. By July 1st, 1900, the Myrtle Ave and Lexington Ave Els were electrified, as was the Broadway - Brooklyn El between Broadway Ferry and East New York.
The LIRR electrified the Chestnut Street incline on July 28th, 1906. A special adapter at the beginning of the ramp along the LIRR's Atlantic Ave line enabled the third rail shoe of the LIRR cars to be moved to the "correct" position for traveling over the El. Service ran to Broadway Ferry until May 30th, 1909, when LIRR service was extended over the Williamsburgh Bridge to the new "Manhattan Terminal" (today's Essex Street). Service lasted until September 3rd, 1917, and the structure was not dismantled until 1942 (although parts were torn down in 1924).
--Mark
That's what I thought he wrote too, but I believe it was the LIRR
steam service to Bway Ferry that lasted only a few months.
The BRT operated steam on the LIRR connection until the Chestnut
ramp itself was electrified in 1906. At that time, LIRR MP-41s
began operation via Broadway to the ferry, and later to Chambers
St. once the Centre St. line was finished.
BRT electric trains ran to Rockaway Park until 1917.
The LIRR used covered third rail, while the BRT els used exposed third
rail with gravity shoes. It seems that the LIRR MP-41s had
a universal shoe with two height settings. The BU cars which were
used for this service must have been fitted with paddle type shoes rather than gravity because all pictures I have seen of the Rockaways during the joint service years show covered third rail.
--Mark
I meant 07.17.04
Just some help ID'ing some of these folks: who's the dude at far left with the Aviator glasses and the two guys only donning 'New York' wear?
Also I'm sure if the weather were nicer the turnout could've been greater
Who are the others?
BTW< MY PIX WILL ALL BE POSTED TOMORROW along with the Sunday Trip pix.
-Chris
Oh, and when we were all standing there, I didn't realize my arm was blocking John's face. Sorry!
Standing up for family values since 1981.
Had a great time today, looking forward to tomorrow, rain or shine!
WTF?
I think part of it was explained here a while back, though I don't know where the post would be...
I always wondered what the loud bangs were when the redbirds started up, and then one day I saw that sometimes the truck starts moving before the car body or vice-versa - I guess the brakes would release differently from truck to truck.
David
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/18/nyregion/18swipe.html?pagewanted=1
TIA
Matt
Not only that, but dip readers are usually a bit slower than swipe readers - the difference might be only a half-second or so, but when large numbers of people are trying to enter, it adds up.
The most likely answer I can come up with is that the vansdalism we see at the MVMs would be inflicted on the turnstiles or faregates. Any other reasons?
David
but then again. the MTA always likes to screw the rider when trying to save a buck to line it's own pockets.
i remmeber having had card problems with a metrocard gaining entry into a station in jamaica more than a year ago. two turnstyles, the token booth closed, and a "please swipe again at this turnstyle." leaving me swiping the card for 10-12 minutes; eventually i was forced to jump it. fucking MTA, i had the choice of 1) risking arrest or 2) paying a double fare to use the subway (With zero chance of having the MTA refunding the first fare because of a defective turnstyle reader, amd no authorized agents around to investigate it.)
If MTA went with RFID technology, then "customers" would be able to carry a card-like object, wave it by as they pass through the gate, or with the newest technology, probably wouldn't need to wave it at all. It's QUITE reliable and doesn't depend on contacts or magnetic heads that would require cleaning. What we have NOW in "Meatball cards" is a pathetic joke in terms of reliability. :(
That said, I do criticize the MTA for not getting rid of the token much earlier, reducing token booth numbers and then investing in measures to assist in reliability: having the readers call home when they detect that the percentage of mis-reads has hit a threshold for example.
I believe the MTA is going to get to RFID in the relatively near future: the new turnstiles at the PATH WTC station have the plastic dimples that are the hallmark of RFID technology. (And before anyone points out to me that PATH is the Port Authority, I believe that any new card will replace both MTA and Port Authority cards)
Then again, with current "Homeland security" madness, maybe it's a GOOD thing that "swipe again" is so prevalent ... terrorists will spontaneously combust at the 'stiles rather than on a train. :)
As an enegineer type though, I've always been fascinated with RFID and because I'm also gravely concerned about personal privacies when law enforcement already knows you're not a threat but I still fear what corporations will do with my personal information (outside the bounds of the constitution) and how they'll screw it up, I've always regarded RFID as a potential biblical "666" and thus the fascination and interest in its progress.
But GIVEN the "environment" of the subways, a farecard method that DOESN'T require "cleanliness" at the point of sale is critical now that there's no alternative but to "swipe again, SEE AGENT" ... ummm ... *WHAT* agent? :(
Even more damning evidence of upcoming RFID use in the subway is that all of the hundreds of MEMs that were installed beginning in 2001 have what are apparently RFID transponders on them.
SmartLink will probably debut on PATH and AirTrain JFK once they replace all of the turnstiles on PATH with the new ones like at WTC.
Welcome back, by the way.
Current subway RFID implementations have a passive device which merely transmits its serial number when activated, relying on a database of stored values elsewhere. MetroCards have read/write mag stripes where the value is encoded and deducted. This allows them to be used on buses, where there isn’t constant communication with a central database.
Does anyone know how the MTA is thinking about implementing RFID so it will work on buses too?
The security is there as well to allow "offloading" to the "cards" and that would have an added benefit that weighed in favor of the mag strip until recently - not only would it hold a lot more data than the magstripe, but again it would be "refillable" limitless times (by comparison to bent cardboard) and actually cost less over time owing to the infrequent need for replacement as is the case with the cardboard magstripers. I've been playing with the stuff ... it really DOES work. And I'm a professional cynic. I've wanted to find fault with it, really I did ... it WORKS. :)
From a mechanical point of view, the cards can be made that little bit heftier so that the replacement cycle is mostly losses rather than failure, so the lifetime cost will be less.
Equipment maintenance costs should be less as there’s nothing to clean, and the rubber dimples covering the transponders on the turnstiles should only need replacement every few months.
One question that has been raised is how to prevent the reading of a RFID card in the rider's pocket when leaving a bus by the front door (where the farebox/reader is. The engineers are aware of the potential problem, the answer isn't in yet. No test of hardware is scheduled and may not be until WMATA decides what will be done about fare collection on the Metro. The current system is 1970's vintage, and the faults are well known.
If I have to physically swipe, it's my own fault if I swipe the wrong card.
That makes it impossible to buy a new 30-day unlimited a day or two early.
Which is what I do and is what I will continue to do. I'm not going to wait until the old card has expired, only to find that the machine at my home station is broken or it has a long line. I buy early when I come across a machine with no line. And what if I want to start off my unlimited on a bus?
Dan Lawrence mentioned a problem on the Baltimore buses of cards being detected as passengers exit. We'd have the exact same problem on the subway, which, unlike WMATA, is pay-on-entry. There aren't enough turnstiles at most stations to have half entry-only and half exit-only.
RFID will be practical if the signal is very weak and it's used to essentially permit sloppy swiping. Otherwise it will read too many wrong cards.
As for the charging-on-exit problem, maybe some operator intervention is required on buses (turning off the RFID sensor temporarily while people exit), but the subway solution is simple: if the turnstile has just been used for exit, don’t charge the card. However the RFID systems I have seen need quite close physical proximity, since the card is powered by induction from the reader (no battery onboard), so you have to place the card, give or take a wallet in between, physically on the reader pad.
Note that this differs from EZPass, where the car transponders contain a battery (but they’re much bigger!).
But the turnstile problem is real if the cards can be read from pockets. New Yorkers aren't orderly. You've never seen someone exit through a turnstile after you've swiped at it but before you've actually entered? Can you ensure that his card isn't debited?
But there is a way to do that. Have the turnstile itself do that - the transaction doesn't occur unless the turnstile has both interacted with your card and the gate itself has spun in the entry direction.
From the rider's perspective, one should try to be in the turnstile itself prior to swiping or otherwise paying, so that you can then proceed through.
And unlike earlier cards that were just a serial number, actual logic as well as storage is possible on the newer ones with nonvolatile memory. They'd be every bit the same as the meag stripe cards of today with the additional benefit of active encryption as well as greater storage capacity.
Reasonably, a second pass going in the same direction is you paying for someone else traveling with you.
They already use RFID passes in Washington and Chicago. It isn't a problem there, why would it be a problem here?
For a living, I deal with computer and "user" problems. This tends to give me a general Luddite mindset since I am surrounded by all that goes WRONG with "technology" ... however, in the NYCTA, I think that the mag-stripe cards are a far bigger failure point than RFID would be. And whereas RFID wasn't mature a few years ago, it's certainly "good enough" now. So actually, I'm in FAVOR of it for "here." :)
You assume that the SmartLink won't allow refills of unlimiteds. That isn't a reasonable assumption since they won't be selling them from vending machines like MetroCards.
It is very likely that they will be refillable. London's Oyster cards (both unlimiteds and pay-per-rides) can be refilled online or by phone. And as regards the strength of the RFID signal - in London it must be quite weak, as you actually have to *touch* your card to the yellow pad to make it work. On the tube, you "touch in and touch out" to open the gates (and you have to do so even if the gates are open). On buses you just touch in (in view of the driver so that he can see that you have), but as the buses are flat-fare you don't need to touch out. On the Docklands LR and Croydon Tramlink, which like the tube have zonal fares, you have to touch in and touch out using pay-per-ride, even though there is no fare control barrier; if you don't touch out, you pay too much, because the system assumes the maximum fare is payable in that case. A reasonable incentive to get it right!
You're whining but you haven't even tried to address it. Write a letter of complaint to the TA first, and if they refuse a refund, then you have a legitimate gripe.
It's obvious that unattended HEET's aren't cleaned often enough. It took me about a minute to get in at 41st and 7th one evening last week, and when I got the signal, everybody else looked at me in awe.
On a school day at Court Square station (IND Crosstown "G"), transferring from the 7 to the G, I went to the entrance. There, there are only 3 "steel whirlpools" (I know they have a different name, but that's what I like to call them. It's those that have a metrocard reader and there's a tall steel bars that spin around). Using my student metrocard, I swiped at my usual spot (the one on the left hand side). "Please swipe again" <- I swiped and I counted 18 times on that turnstile and I got that. Pissed, I went to the next whirlpool and then "Just Used". WTF was my response. But, I wasn't in a hurry, but I decided to use my paid metrocard on the second turnstile and I got in. I have effectively made a $2 donation to the MTA against my will. I had a paper, pen and tape, so I wrote "out of order" on a paper and taped it over the card reader. Something must be done. Damn I hate those cards. BTW: This happened this year.
Just for future reference, they are officially called "rye bread slicers"...
The "EZ-Fare" could be refilled monthly by an automatic credit card transaction, or whenever you get close to being out of rides.
It's also not used by those of us who don't like Big Brother watching our every move. There's enough of that as it is... why give the government any more ability than they're already finding to abridge our Constitutional rights?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes it is.
When I first signed up for E-ZPass, I lived in Illinois.
I've used E-ZPass three times so far in 2004, and two of those were on a single trip.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-w.e.s.
When Gov. McGreedy was running for office in 2001, one of his campaign promises was to remove the tolls on the GSP within 10 years. Now, New Jersey is beginning a plan to "speed up traffic" at the Raritan and Asbury Park tolls that will cost so much money that it won't break even for 14 years. So much for promises :-(
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What do you mean by "New York"?
The NYS Thruway used to charge, but I believe they stopped.
I think I heard the PANYNJ is planning to charge.
The MTA has never announced any plans to charge. They save so much money on toll collectors from EZ Pass that they'd lose money if they discourage EZ Pass use.
I didn't bother to get an EZ Pass when only the NYS Thruway had it and charged for it, and I would have only used it a few times per year. But as soon as the MTA started offering and accepting it, and in fact offering a discount for use, I got one and have never paid cash since.
The Port Authority started charging a few months ago. I had to turn in my Port Authority tag for an MTA tag, which required a visit to a walk-in center (none of which are in walking distance of anything at all, including the subway, and none of which are open on Sundays).
The MTA and the Thruway currently have no plans to charge monthly fees. And various other agencies based outside New York don't charge fees, either.
E-ZPasses are issued by agencies, not by states. Just like a MasterCard, if you don't like the terms offered by one agency, you're free to use a different agency. I don't pay annual fees on my credit cards and I don't pay monthly fees on my E-ZPass.
They did when they were the only people who issued and accepted EZPass, and then for a while after the MTA started to issue and accept them.
We're talking the mid-1990s here.
Several years later, I think the deposit requirement was dropped.
--Mark
MTA only charged $10 deposit, and never per month.
NYS Thruway also charged $1/month. This was before the MTA dealt with EZPass at all.
New York isn't charging fees - yet - but the idea is being considered. Maryland does, Delaware does not, and I don't know about Pennsylvania.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Unless they've made a pact with the NJ Turnpike (which is possible), they should be willing to sign you up.
New Jersey, the state, does not issue E-ZPass tags. The Regional Consortium, now apparently called the New Jersey Customer Service Center, issues tags on behalf of the New Jersey Turnpike Authority. The NJCSC charges a $1 monthly fee.
The New York Service Center handles accounts on behalf of the Port Authority, the New York State Thruway, and the MTA (I don't know what the deal is with the New York State Bridge Authority). Port Authority accounts are charged a $1 monthly fee. Thruway and MTA accounts have no monthly fees, and no monthly fees are currently being considered. (Unfortunately, when signing up by mail or online, there is no way to request a tag from a particular agency, so there's a 1/3 chance of being hit with the $1 fee.) There are no fees for bimonthly statements; monthly statements are available for a $6 annual surcharge.
I suppose if I used my North Carolina address - and had a credit card that was billed to that address - I could get one where I chose. But since my wife and I aren't in North Carolina on a predictable enough basis to get the mail in a timely manner (and thereby keep the credit card paid up), I can't do that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can pay the bill for that credit card online and you'd never need to see the printed statement.
Again: anybody, in any state, can sign up for E-ZPass with any agency that offers it.
If everybody in New Jersey is supposed to use the New Jersey Customer Service Center, and everybody in Pennsylvania is supposed to use the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission, then who is entitled to open accounts with the Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission?
Pick your favorite agency that offers E-ZPass. Print out the form, fill it out, and mail it in. You will be enrolled in E-ZPass through that agency.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is indeed the case that the smartcards are really most suitable for regular travellers, and unless the cost of the chips comes down very low, its is likely that the magnetic-strip tickets will stay in use for the non-regulars.
What is ridership like during certain times of the day?
I assume ridership is heavy(crushload) during morning and afternoon rush nours.....But what about midday, evenings, and weekends?
Interesting the Metro lines usually do not have a "crush" load like, for example, the Lexington Avenue Line. Most people refuse to move to the area in between the door areas, so only the door areas are packed, the rest of the train is not so bad. If they ever switch to 4 door-set per side per car, the load might be more even. On a recent trip to Barcelona, I saw 4 door-sets per side on 50' cars. The train appears to be nearly all doors, and it's very efficient. Then again they run 5-car (only) trains every 4 minutes a lot of the day and every 2 minutes during the rush.
I do agree that the trains are not at capacity because no one rides in the middle of the cars. Perhaps the 7000 Series cars will come with 4 doorways but I don't think its been raised yet.
What is ridership like during certain times of the day?
I assume ridership is heavy(crushload) during morning and afternoon rush nours.....But what about midday,
evenings, and weekends?
I don’t recall WMATA ever publishing hour by hour boarding statistics.
WMATA does have a spike around noon.
Hour by hour boarding statistics do exist and they are used for scheduling, dispatching and figuring train consists. You might call WMATA and ask them if you can get these number.
John
I used to do a more standard commute, inbound at about 8 AM (peak of AM rush) and out in the afternoon at around 3, but now I go outbound in the morning at about 7:20 AM and inbound in the afternoon at any time from 4 to 6, so I really don't see alot of people on my commute, especially in the morning.
I spent a few hours walking around Washington's main tourist areas early on a Sunday morning in 1996. From when I started at about 7:30, until 9:00 or so, most of the tourists I saw were Japanese. Americans and other foreigners didn't come out until after 9:00.
I like to sleep a bit later when I'm on vacation, but I find if I deviate from my schedule too much, it becomes hard to adjust upon my return home. Of course, my sleep schedule this summer has been all over the place. I've only done 4 early morning bike rides so far.
The lite rail line proposal on the Georgetown Branch (Purple Line) died the day Robert L. Ehrlich was elected governor of Maryland. Don’t make any bets that the proposal will given a new life after governor Ehrlich finishes his term(s) in office.
John
The only station that I know of that has one is Shady Grove.
http://world.nycsubway.org/us/washdc/overview.html#future
That was based on Metrorail's press releases and a website they put up for construction news.
I think you mean the end of next year. The opening of New York Avenue station is tentatively scheduled for November of 2005. I am not quite sure about the G Route extension to Largo, but I would hazard a guess it will also happen in 2005.
John
I find that hard to believe because the contractor was still pouring concrete for the structures in the underground tail tracks east of the Largo (G05) station as late as three months ago.
Startup testing can take up to six months to be excepted. Normal practice is to do the testing on the full length of the segment not on segments as they become ready for testing. After fully passing expectance testing it is then turned over to WMATA.
John
That would indicate testing during startup operations should follow very soon. Non operational testing of the power distribution system will happen first. The first train movement under third rail power will be pushing the feeler car along every foot of track along the segment. Any obstruction will be relocated if found. Then full testing of all of the train control systems will commence.
If all of the non operational finishing work is completed in time, and no significant snags are encountered during startup testing, sounds to me like opening could happen as soon as February of 2005. My best guess would be a March or April opening.
As to the tentatively scheduled of November of 2005 for the opening New York Avenue, this was told to me by a source at WMATA. A lot of stuff that has to do with the fact that New York Avenue is an infill station is one of the reasons for the late 2005 opening.
John
My source at WMATA is very close to the decision making process involving the scheduling of when the various trackwork and train control installation work will happen. Back in April WMATA had not completely finalized what would happen and when it would happen.
As late as a week ago none of the mainline tracks through the station had yet been cut in and as far as I know it still hasn’t happened.
After the tracks are cut in all of the associated train control hardware through the areas where the connection are made has to be installed and tested. Being that revenue trains will be running on these tracks none of the testing can be done during revenue operation. The window for testing can be done only during time when WMATA is closed it will take longer then the time that is available out on the G Route extension.
It will be a two step process. First the southbound track B2 will be cut in. Then the former southbound track B2 along the northbound side station will be removed. After removal of the former southbound track B2, the northbound track B1 along the platform will be installed. Then the existing northbound track B1 will cut in to the new track along the platform.
After all of the track are cut in the M Street interlocking will be moved south 1,255’ (382.5m). Again train control hardware through relocated M Street interlocking will have to be tested. From what I understand work on the M Street interlocking relocation part of the project will happen after the station opens.
Oh and during this time between when the tracks are cut in and the train control hardware is installed, tested and excepted for revenue operations this area will be dark territory. That means all train through the station will operated manual control at no more the 15 MPH.
John
On the rare occasions I ride during the workweek, the rush hours are really packed, middays are busier than usual, and the evenings are surprisingly really busy, with late meetings and such [I rode a packed Yellow Line trais at 8:30 pm on a Thursday one time].
Metrorail ridership varies by time of day, but is fairly even distributed between AM peak, PM peak, and off peak periods.
More than 70% of ridership occurs in AM and PM peak periods.
On a systemwide basis, peak one-hour ridership accounts for approximately 43% of peak period ridership.
Metrorail ridership by time of day for average weekday for FY2001
AM Peak (6 AM-9:59 AM): 35%
Midday (10:00 AM-3:29 PM): 19%
PM Peak (3:30 PM-7:29 PM): 36%
Evening (7:30 PM-12:00 AM): 10%
Peak in AM rush entries occurs from 8:30-8:59 AM
Peak in PM rush entires occurs from 5:30-5:59 PM
The 5:30 to 5:59 PM period is the period during which the most boardings occured over the course of an average day.
Arthur Thomas
Most crowded stretch of the system: Gallery Place to Union Station on the Red Line
I'd be leaving from Port Washington(zone 4), going to Woodside(Zone 1), then going to either Bay Shore, Sayville, or Patchogue(Zone 10). Now, can I just pay the monthly price for a ticket from zone 4 to zone 10, or do I have to pay for a monthly from zone 4 to zone 1, and then another monthly from zone 1 to zone 10?
Arti
Btw: When are we RFing at mineola or hicksville or where?
avid
It was a great excursion today, especially with the BU cars running under power. More later...
Your pal,
Fred
--Mark
Question: do these cars still have the lightweight IRT trucks they had when they were Q types, or do they have some other type?
I quote from the flyer: "We will be towing these cars with the R1/9 museum cars, though if the BU cars prove to be operable we will attempt to give them a chance to run alone."
And as for the G.O, that back and forth part out in the Rockaways sounded like a chance to operate them alone because otherwise they would need someone flagging in the front when the R-1/9's were pushing and I don't think they would do that with passengers on board.
Yes, those would be the trucks from the Composite cars. The #1400 series motor cars have them. The center trailer car has the original Peckham 40 trailer trucks.
Bill "Newkirk"
Chuck Greene
A real teaser here:
Enjoy.
-Chris
-Chris
If I'm reading the LIRR schedules right, they should depart (offpeak at 12:23pm) at Hampton Bays and transfer at Jamaica to NYP. My question is, when the train arrives at Jamaica, how do you know which train to transfer to for NYP?, will it be announced or is there some signs pointing (sorry never ridden or been to LIRR before).
Thanks.
They could also just ask fellow passengers at Jamaica.
Plus, there are usually only two or maybe three tracks being used for westbound trains at Jamaica. And every platform has an electronic sign displaying where the next arriving train on that platform will be going, and when it will arrive. It's very easy.
i started off at Lorimer st paying the $2 fare and i had to swipe like
10 times(it kept on saying "see agent")until the token booth clerk let
me pass.caught a G train going to CI,at Church Av i was greeted by R33
WF#'s 9340(lead motor)and 9312.they were pulling a garbage train with
the last motor being R127 EP007 (i think that was the #).i looked at
the R33WF cars and noticed one of 9340's rollsign with a knob and they
were all set to the 7 line.i also looked at the R127 and look in the
cab,the speedometer look's diffrent from the other speedometer i'v seen,
and the left side of the car had doors that looked alot like the one
ya see on the R142/A when your crossing cars.after that i got on the
next G to CI.passing Ave X i looked into CI yard to see if i could spot the R110B,and i didn't see one.i did see some R30 cars and also
saw that the R16's that were there were moved.also saw R32#3620 in the
museum yard along with the other cars.(what is it doing there if it is
out of service and permanently retired?)also saw an 8-car set of R33ML
at the other end of the yard towards the expressway.i was also wondering what kind of work are they doing at the Ave x side of the yard?got off at CI and took a Queens-bound G to Hoyt-Schermerhorn and
waited for a rockaway-bound A train,while waiting i saw an F train and
the LED signs were set to Euclid Av.then i remembered that there was no c service so the F replaced the C.got on R38#3983 and i was gonna
take it to Broad Channel thinking that the BU train would pass that
station.but i spotted the train at Howard Beach on the middle track,
and met up with Joe Testagrose and Doug Grotjahn.we went to Aqueduct
N Conduit and waited to see the BU train pass by(the cars look great)
and Joe showed me his pics of the BU cars on their own power on the
Rockaway Pk line,on my way the Bway Junction Doug told me that R6#1300
is at the 207 yard for restoration.got off at Bway Junction and took
J train R42#4672 to Marcy AV and home tired.great day for me,and i'll
be out there next weekend chasing the BU cars on the J line.
til next time
til next time
til next time
Yes, the tuna is gone. In its place are scratch marks. I guess they had to use steel wool to get it off.
I'm sorry for starting a new thread about this, but I searched the archives and couldn't find any of the old threads. Anyhow, back when I posted the above photo taken during the Discovery Times Channel Ultimate Ride last year, some people were saying that the "stainless steel" belt shown on those R-44 cars was not really stainless steel, but was instead just painted differently to look like stainless steel. Well on Friday for the first time in almost a year, I finally saw the stainless steel R-44's again. I was at Chambers St, and an R-44 (A) going the opposite direction came in. I ran up to the front of the train and touched the "stainless steel" band and sure enough, IT WAS REAL STAINLESS STEEL. End of story. Another mystery solved. :)
I don’t want to sound like a smart ass. Why would any one think that part of the side of any of the stainless steel cars was any thing but stainless steel. The whole side is stainless steel, much like the single stamping aluminum sides on bart and WMATA cars.
John
And on this particular pair of 44s, the stainless steel band is a separate panel, unlike the 46es.
Please excuse my ignorance of how the car sides on these cars were fabricated. I ‘ass’umed the side was a single piece of stainless steel from where the side connected to the roof down to the bottom below the floor line. This is the only stainless steel railroad or transit car that I have ever heard of where part of the exterior sides or roof were not all stainless steel.
John
IMHO
avid
#3 West End Jeff
til next time
thanks for reminding me.
til next time
I was wearing my Independent Subway T shirt once when he asked about it. OK, I cut him some slack on that one, since people won't know unless they're from New York (he wasn't).
He even drove my mother crazy, and that's saying something. The guy my sister eventually married is inquisitive, but at least he asks intelligent questions.
Presumably they wanted a station at 68th, for Hunter College. That's too close to 72nd, but too far from 79th, so the one station between 68th and 86th was placed at 77th.
Further north, 96th-106th-116th was probably considered too sparsely spaced, so instead we got 96th-103rd-110th-116th, copying the West Side spacing (even though 110th is wide on the West Side). Apparently that pattern was considered successful; it's probably the longest sequence of equivalent stops on three parallel lines in the system.
It just seems like 42, 50, 57, 66, 72, 79, 86 would have made more sense. Presumably there were crosstown trolleys on the wide streets.
(The mistakes I make for being a wise guy!)
Perhaps, but there was a choice between building a station at an institution that would clearly provide passengers vs. building one at a cross street where there was effectively nothing (66th).
Also 59th had the streetcar, 57th didn't. 59th is favored for stops. Only the existence of Central Park caused there to be two 57th Street stations
Presumably there were crosstown trolleys on the wide streets.
No, there weren't. I would imagine that at the time that the Lexington line was built, there were no buses either. The only crosstown streetcar between 59th and 125th was a short line on 86th Street between 2nd and Avenue A (York), then on A to 94th to serve the Hell Gate Ferry to Astoria.
I forgot to note the services along 116th Street, which were part of north-south routes.
There's original-looking Lenox Hill Hospital signage at the station, so presumably the hospital was around by then.
Lenox Hill Hospital was renamed from German Hospital in 1918 because of World War I.
Almost all (not all, almost all) stations are built at the major 2-way streets, such as Houston, 14, 23, 34, 42, 57, 59th (between 5th & 8th Avenues), 72, 79, 86, 96, 106 (no station) 110, 116, 125, 135, 145. The others are put in usually to provide uniform spacing, which is why 103rd gets a station and not 106th, or why there is a whole bunch of stations at 49th or 50th or 51st Streets. Also, on the Lexington they tried to have stations just under every 1/2 mile north of 42St, hence 51, 59, 68, 77, 86 (Bingo, a 2-way main crosstown street again). Look at a Manhattan Bus map and you can see which are the major crosstown streets: the ones with 2-way bus service.
Peace,
ANDEE
Perhaps they decided that stations needed to be spaced roughly the same distance apart and knew that certain locations were important at that time? What the didn't know was how things would be in 50 or 100 years hence.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/18/nyregion/thecity/18muza.html
and HEY! everyone wants to hear Frere Jacques in minor, don't they?
Well, at least Mozart wrote enough stuff that they shouldn't need to repeat anything for a while, if they just build up their library a bit. Not to mention all his lesser-known contemporaries.
They weren’t bad either. Much better than today’s offering which is usually a horrible performer being accompanied by a CD of the rest of the orchestra!
no double bass
Now you are prodding my memory, I don’t remember a cello, so maybe that quartet had a sub!
The piano was apparently stored in the Coliseum. I once saw him pushing it across Broadway.
Replace "classical" with any other type of music and it's still a true statement.
Some of it is. ;-)
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/18/fashion/18NITE.html
I'm a little miffed that I wasn't invited. I guess I went to the wrong high school and college.
You have two choices: park or demolition. At this point, opposition to the park is support for demolition.
Because people who live there don't want neither the rail service nor the structure. As a park, they might be enticed to accept the structure, and maybe someday, light rail can run through the park.
That's great, until you try to get the City Council or DCP to approve something. Also, CSX has said they would transfer ownership to the City, but with the stipulation that it is not used for rail transit.
I do understand the noise issues, which is why this is one case where I would like to see LRVs rather than heavy subway cars (my experience of the current Kinki-Sharyos on the Hudson-Bergen and Newark City Subway is that they are extremely quiet). This would eliminate the vibration nuisance that heavy rail would generate, which would be a legitimate NIMBY complaint.
With a little imagination, the route could be a Penn Station to downtown along the West Side, and I don’t think it would cost a whole load of money.
I still dont get how people hate transit, yet use it if its there. I say send the NIMBY's to SI and make all the transit we need in the city. :P
Its the same with the old LIRR Branch near Metropolitan Ave, the branch is still there, just inactive.
Also, it was the same story with the M&E, and now look.
True, they should question it. But I guess what they see is what they think is gonna be that way for sometime to come. And even if the high line saw at say, 5 trains a day, I doubt they'd get all NIMBY'd out.
There is no huge clamor to have it restarted by the residents who now live there and those are the people who will benefit from it. It makes no sense to provide for the residents a service they don't want just because some people think it would be a nice addition to the transit system. Some people prefer to deal with the inconvenience of having to walk or take a bus or have a car in order not to live near a transit line. You may consider them idiots, but they have the choice to live where they want. If one were to argue in favor of the restoration of the High Line for the purposes of providing RR access downtown, then that changes everything. In that case the line would benefit people other than those living there, in which case it would be worthwhile to pay off the residents in order to placate them; but why placate them against something they don't want and no one else needs?
This is all moot if in fact the people do want a transit line, but money doesn't grow on trees and there are far more important projects.
There were no longer any potential freight customers along the line.
A dinner to benefit the High Line sounds as worthwhile as a dinner to benefit the demise of the 9th Ave EL!
I picked the right day to ride, because they broke out a new batch of tickets, and I got number 1...well, actually 100001.
I photographed Jersey Central Blue Comet observation car "Tempel" from the train while passing through Rio Grande, location of CMSL HQ and yard.
After my round trip I drove to Rio Grande to photograph some of the goodies located there.
Lehigh Valley F7 #576
shot over the fence: Conrail RS-3, PRSL Budd RDC M-410 (1951), Jersey Central GP7 #1523, and PRR GP9 #7000.
storage track across the street
Before I finished, the next southbound train arrived. The conductor flagged the crossing because the gates weren't operating.
I left right away to chase the southbound train to the Cape May Canal bridge for a last photo.
The only other Budd Car on the CMSL that is operable is M-410 and it's currently out of service because it's involved in a lawsuit (as I heard on the MOD trip Saturday, CMSL is suing the owner of a dump truck that drove onto the track and damaged M-410).
Did you hear of any talk concerning extending the line to reach NJ Transit? Were the cars full or just half full? How long did it take to get to Cape May?
The print timetable shows the northern terminus at Tuckahoe and says "coming soon". That's wishful thinking.
The fact that the railroad is running from Cape May Court House to Cape May City was considered wishful thinking 10 years ago, too.
I rode the first train (10 AM), which is usually pretty empty. There were four passengers from Cape May Court House, and six more boarded at Cold Spring.
The 11:00 train back had 8 passengers off the ferry from Delaware who had combination tickets for the ferry, train, and Cold Spring Village. Four more passengers boarded at Cold Spring.
The conductor said that the beautiful weather was killing them; the train does well when it rains and people ride instead of going to the beach.
It took me about 90 minutes to drive to Cape May Court House from Collingswood.
http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,10175651%255E2862,00.html
One of the things that was strange in the article was how the restrooms were lit in blue to discourage people from shooting up drugs. Does that make it harder to find a vein?
For a little history of Flinders Street station check out this link.
http://www.museum.vic.gov.au/marvellous/powered/flindersst.asp
And if you're interested in elevators, especially hydraulics, check out the link on the left side of the museum's page.
Should have known it.
When those charlatans were running trains in South London, I don't think they ever cleaned them.
Why do governements around the world fall for these companies (Stagecoach, First, Arriva, Connex) who come sauntering in promising to sort their railways out, and are then nothing but trouble. Is money changing hands in secret?
There's always been a problem with the carriage washer at Hither Green - it certainly used to involve reversal. This gave the effect of trains being filthy at one end and faded by acid at the other.
O.K., it is a little run down - and I share Max's opinion of Connex - but it *is* old, so you can't expect it to be totally pristine. Even in its present state it is a magnificant station, well deserving its heritage status. And the toilets weren't bad, though I too was puzzled by the blue lights.
Here are the teasers:
47 photos in SubwaySpot album.
- #7 the guy in the black t-shirt on the platform with his back to the camera is Lou from Brooklyn ... I was next to him.
- #40 I liked so much I made a copy for myself.
--Mark
See you soon.
Bob
Oh yeah, great pics Bob :) I'm gonna try to make it out next Saturday... let's see if work permits...
Your pal,
Fred
Does anyone know if the CTA will create a new color line for this connection & will there be any changes to the LOOP service.
There is somewhere linked from the CTA website a long-term plan to make a City Circle line combining the State St. Subway with the Paulina connection. To me it would be a great idea. Only a couple of miles of new rail line would need to be built + the Paulina Connection Upgrade.
Silver
...& will there be any changes to the LOOP service.
Yes
Yes. It could be pink, beige, turquoise, cyan, grey or any other colour they don't have yet.
& will there be any changes to the LOOP service.
No. The extra trains would run over the magically reinstated spur to Market and Madison. <sarcasm>
http://www.grayline.20m.com/
A neat concept.
Matt
At least this guy calls a spade a spade - none of this silver line shit, it's grey. Actually, this naming lines after precious metals with some scant resemblance to the colour has got me thinking - London's Circle Line should be renamed the Gold Line to symbolise the scarcity of the service.
How about renaming the Skokie Swift the gold line. ;)
-- Ed Sachs
Instead, Metra rips out the turnstiles on the electric, ignores his suggestion (CATS rated it the top idea for value for money), and shafts the South Side with stations under perpetual renovation. Meanwhile, the CTA can't run enough buses up into the Loop to meet demand -- and the buses have five minute headways in the rush. Makes me wanna go smack some collar county politicians around....
How many rail cars did CTA ordered for this proprosel Grey line?....I'll say about 250.
And will the Grey line traction power be third rail or overhead catenary?
concerning,
Arthur Thomas
You didn't, you just used the UK spelling..... (8-)
And its proberly 3rd rail seeing as how the Skokie Line is being converted to 3rd rail last I heard.
By looking at the proposed CTA map of the possible 22 mile-long Grey line hyperlinked by Tech-35th(Matt), I figure there will be a total of 28 trips during morning and afternoon rush hours base on a 7 or 8 minute headway within a 22 mile-long rail route, each trip with a maximum of eight car trains. I multiply 28 by 8 which is 224, so 224 cars maximum during commute hours and some spare cars stored at the possible future storage yard/maintenance facility for the new Grey line.
For all we know, they can use other cars that are not being used.
True, depending on how many spare cars other existing CTA rail lines have
Arthur Thomas
And come to think of it, wasnt the CTA getting new cars anyways?
Arthur Thomas
There are supposed to get new cars, but they can't seem to get an RFP out, which means it will be awhile. They also want to use AC propulsion, which supposedly makes the signals go haywire. Plus they are tight on money. So--the 2200s will probably easily see 40 before they are fully (or even partially) replaced (which is fine with me since they are my favorite cars).
Also, as mentioned by others, the IC (Metra Electric) is FRA, which means no CTA cars (as currently built). The point of the proposal is to use the Metra Highliners that sit idle all day for the service, since it is pointless and wasteful to have a perfectly good fleet only being used for rush. Metra has already ordered more for replacement, IIRC.
Matt
Matt
However, there was at least one quite serious rear-end collision (Granville Avenue, November 24, 1936) between North Shore's heavy interurbans and CRT wooden cars, in which the latter definitely came out the worse, with ten passenger fatalities. There's a reason for those FRA regulations.
Apropos of the mixed-traffic issue, until thirty years ago the North Side "L" regularly saw movements of steam road freight cars, hauled by CTA steeplecabs. CTA interchanged with the Milwaukee Road at Buena Yard, at surface level between Montrose and Irving Park just west of the elevated structure, to which it was connected by a ramp leading to Track 1 north of Wilson Avenue. Freight customers were strung out along the line as far north as Evanston; the last freight traffic on the line was the Lill Coal Company, which ceased to use rail haulage in 1973.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
NO. Metra us an FRA regulated RR with many connections to mainline freight rrs.
Besides part of the point here is the present operation is essentially a rush hour service which then parks the fleet for midday. The proposal os to return to the service pattern prior to the 1950's when IC Electric Commuter trains ran on 20 min headways midday and were a serious part of mass transit in town. For comparison, imagine Metro North trains making local stops all through the Bronx on the Conn Dot line and a few extra stops on Park Ave with much denser headways
http://community-2.webtv.net/GLRTS/GRAYLINECONVERSION/
http://community-2.webtv.net/GLRT3/GrayLineCoalition/
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
If the fare deal happens, the riders will .
Matt
I just read those websites of Mike Payne about the possible future CTA Grey-line.
I have a question about population density along the In-city Metra Electric Line...
Are the neighborhoods' population along the In-city Metra Electric Line dense as the communities near the Dan Ryan Red branch line or any other CTA rail route? Or are they sprawl, low dense as the suburbs?
concerning,
Arthur Thomas
That density is why CTA express buses run every 5-10 minutes and are packed to the gills. And the Metra trains running every 10 minutes (except midday) are packed too even though there's no transfer to CTA. Add in that the electric has a stop at McCormick Place, one block from the Museum of Science and Industry, and three-five blocks from the U of C campus. It's a lay-up, except that Metra could care less about in-city service or cooperating with the CTA (and gambling on losing some funding to the CTA).
Chicago is ripe for a regional transit setup -- like the German S-Bahn or the French RER. The biggest obstacle though: Metra itself. They just helped kill the creation of a coordinating superagency.
Historically there was such a connection. The Canal Street station on the Metropolitan "L" main was half a block south of the Union Station headhouse, and had a stairway leading down to an underground passageway to the station, along the west side of the tracks. When the "L" was replaced by the Congress Street subway in 1958, the connection became far less convenient, with the Clinton-Congress subway station being two blocks farther south and a block farther west, requiring a two-block walk along Clinton Street to the nearest Union Station entrance, and another block and a half through the station to reach the gates.
LaSalle Street Station (used by New York Central, Rock Island, and Nickel Plate)had the best connection with the "L," having a direct entrance from track level to the mezzanine of the LaSalle-Van Buren station on the Loop. The North Shore Line, which entered Chicago over the "L," took advantage of this to promote itself as a convenient connection to and from north suburban points and Milwaukee for passengers using LaSalle Street; their Eastern Limited in the 1920's was scheduled specifically as a connection for the Century.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
That would be the Ogilvie Transportation Center, which I imagine gets called that by Chicagoans about as often as New Yorkers use the term "Avenue of the Americas." To Chicagoans it will always be North Western Station. It opened in 1911, replacing an earlier North Western Station on the present site of the Merchandise Mart. In 1987, the 1911 headhouse was replaced with the Helmut Jahn's rather impressive Citicorp Center, with quite decent station facilities included. There is also a separate suburban concourse under the tracks a block and a half north of the headhouse, about halfway down the platforms, in the block between Randolph and Washington
In terms of rapid transit connections, the Lake Street (Green) Line crosses over the throat of the station, with the Clinton Street "L" station located just west of the throat. This is three blocks (in a Chicago winter, three long, cold, windy blocks) from North Western Station's main entrance on Madison Street, and a block and a half from the suburban concourse. From 1970 to 1990 there was an enclosed, carpeted, climate-controlled passageway, called the Northwest Passage, at C&NW track level, connecting the suburban concourse to the mezzanine level of the Clinton "L" station. This was not included in the design of the rebuilt Clinton station when it reopened in 1996 after the Green Line renovation.
Until closure of the Market Street "L" spur in 1948, the Market-Madison "L" station was slightly closer than Clinton Street to North Western Station. However, the Market spur had very limited service through most of its life, handling just a handful of rush-hour Lake Street trains to relieve overcrowding on the Loop.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
I meant to post this message under your response(Not busfan).
I think CTA officials should consider Mike Payne's idea of the possible Grey-line concervsion as
part of the future Circle Line Plan project in Downtown Chicago. Before then, CTA could come up
with at least $3 billion to have contract workers modify the current In-city Metra El's tracks and stations
so CTA could place CTA L cars on the possible modified tracks.
But I read on some website that CTA is getting money to renovate and
expand thier existing CTA rapid rail lines.
The collar county politicians are the ones who ensure Metra gets more funding than their due. Metra isn't about to anger them by spending money on the South Side. (For suburbanites, the South Side is still trapped in the gang wars of the '80s.)
The RTA isn't about to force Metra to do anything; hell, they didn't even lift a finger in the Star Line vs. Blue Line Extension debates.
CATS likes the idea, but all they can do is make suggestions about priorities, which are usually ignored.
Just read the controversy over creating a transit superagency. The Grey Line isn't happening soon.
Matt
-- Ed Sachs
Arthur Thomas
http://www.bugmenot.com/view.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chicagotribune.com
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
How do you push the Illinois legislature to cough up more money?
I think the only way to get good in-city service is for Daley to pull a Meigs Field and seize the in-city lines through some trumped-up eminent domain claim. NYC does things by committee and arguing to compromise; here, an iron fist slammed on the table is more the tradition.
Anywho, the content is that MTA will be running vintage trains at Oct. 28 and 29. Any chance that some of you people already know the schedule?
With my luck, I'll probably miss it both of the days. I missed the last two because I got the information late.
Otherwise let this thread lapse and let it revive later.
These trains will be in regular service, so you will just have to look around and wait!
The Route 10 subway surface line will resume trolley operation on August 1, operating once again out of Elmwood Depot for the time being.
Correct my statements above, if I am off base.
I'm also of the opinion that 15 may have to deadhead out of Elmwood for now until something is resolved.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
The Route 10 and 15 pull-ins to Callowhill for trolleys: There are switches at Girard to turn right or left onto 60th Street, and then south on 60th to Callowhill St., turning east on Callowhill to 58th St., south on 58th to the back of the depot. That has never been a real problem.
Prior to the mass conversions of the 1950's, Route 15 cars pulling in westbound made a right turn on 58th St. off Girard, straight down 58th St. to the back of the depot.
Chuck Greene
wayne
til next time
I wasn't told the cars #'s so I don't know if the two pictured here are the cars in question.
And from what we were told, IRM is short on *ACF equipment. So it makes sense.
Bill "Newkirk"
* American Car & Foundry
I asked a few people at IRM about the Redbird acquisition when I was there two weeks ago and couldn't get a definitive answer.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Better than reefing, that's for sure!
--Mark
Now OTOH if you like Chicago's rolling stock, well.......
I wonder which route will they take?
My guess? From Conrail Shared Asset Greenville Docks in Jersey City, west on NS to Pittburgh/Cleveland or Columbus. NS to Chicago, then to IRM?
More like sixty miles northwest.
More likely one of the trucking companies that moves transit rail cars will handle the shipping. Like the outfit that transported the Muni LRVs between Hunt Valley Maryland and San Francisco California.
John
When we got home, we turned on the radio and heard a report that there had been quite an uproar that day, and some of the windows had been broken by the passengers in frustration -- and that was the end of that! But subsequently, door pocket windows and the small window opposite the motorman's cab began to be painted over on all pre-war subway equipment. The reason given at the time was that it was done to save money on window washing, and it was believed that most people never looked out the window on subways, anyway! This statement came from the General Manager, Thomas McLernon, who later went on to Boston and was responsible for creating similar animosity with the union and the riding public. This ultimately caused him to be fired.
Does anybody have any information or photographs of the painted-window debacle?
Whatever happened to that kind of spirit - We might still have railfan windows ;-)
I took an E back to W4th, took an F to Delancey for the J instead of waiting for the A to clear up.
Somewhere around 6 PM or so, a southbound to Far Rock left the station and two friends of mine stated they smelled something electrical burning. I smelled it too and it was an R-44. I didn't take note of the car number, because we didn't know which car was "smoke issuing".
Maybe a coincidence or maybe not.
Bill "Newkirk"
til next time
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
--Mark
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
75' cars RULE!
Adam
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Tom
My love for the R44 has to do with only one aspect: the interior seating arrangement. If the R160's had a similar arrangement, I wouldn't shed any tears for these lemons.
-RJM
i'm so glad they switched it to the current way...
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
Enjoy everyone, I will be back with a min-report of the action.
A great time was had by all. A killer trip. Totally wicked. What more can I say? Riding the gate is an unbelievable experience. I also took about 2.5 hours of video that I hope to make into a DVD at some point. Click the thumbnail above to view the photos. Enjoy my pics!
Chuck Greene
Which reactor are you trying to save?
Here is their website:
http://www.osp.cornell.edu/vpr/ward/mission.html
And here are photos from the rally for which I first wore this t-shirt.
http://www.brianweinberg.com/photos/nukerally/nukerally.html
From another point of view, is Ithaca so crowded that they need to spend that sort of money to construct an office building?
The site is very close to one of the famous gorges. In the years after the reactor was built, they made a law about how close you could build to the edge of the gorge. Since the reactor building is already there, they can make changes to it without being in violation of the law. I guess besides offices down in the cask, they will add stories above ground and those offices will have a very nice view of the gorge.
Matt
Okay...I am used to see it in that setup on the car sides nowadays on the modern equipment these days (such as the slant R-40's). But IMHO, it sure looks out of place on those R-1/9's with their vintage roll signs.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
http://www.subwayspot.com/gallery/BriansTrainVids
We really didn't have much to say about as the cars had a nice run with plenty of exciting things outside of the trip. There was the poor "mismatched" R32 Q train out again, only this time, a paper Q was on #3776 on the south end. I enjoyed the nice outdoor run on the Brighto line, taking in the breeze from standing on the outside portion of the BU cars. Plenty of shocked and dazed people staring at a 101 year old trainset. Lunch at Brighton Beach was from 1 to 2 as I went home to grab a bite and returned to BB just in time. I tagged ahead with the poor R32 Q train and it was scheduled for lay up when I got to Stillwell. We went up the West end a few times as the last trip around 38th St yard was slow (did they do this on purpose?) as the rain was coming down hard and we were waiting at 9th Ave for the last photos before getting wet and drying off inside. Mark W. joined us at 9th Ave for a R/T to 62nd st and the last run back to 59/C. Two women got on at West 4th St, thinking it was a D train (what else is new?). The trip ended at 5:15 PM and I was happy to ride the cars and went back to Brooklyn for these posts.
List of Subtalkers:
High Street-Brooklyn Bridge
Sir. Ronald of McDonald
David of Broadway
LincolN
The 795
Bombardier
Amanda
Christopher Rivera
Ozzy a.k.a. Da Hui (I don't have time to type your long a** handle)
Thru Express
R32/3
Fred G.
Notch It
Chris SINYR143
Jehuty V2
Sonic McTails
Boriqua
Mark W.
Koi-Public Transit is my Lifeline
SciGuy1904
Slant Man
Ron Dos 728
Q R68 2778
D R68 2532
MOD Excursion Train special (from North motor to south motor as when trip started at 59th CC)
Brooklyn Union 1404
Brooklyn Union 1273
Brooklyn Union 1407
R1 100
R4 401
R7A 1575
R4 484
Q R68A 5029
Q R68 2876
A R44 5219
Q R68A 5160
High Street-Brooklyn Bridge
Sir. Ronald of McDonald
David of Broadway
LincolN
The 795
Bombardier
Amanda
Christopher Rivera
Ozzy a.k.a. Da Hui (I don't have time to type your long a** handle)
Thru Express
R32/3
Fred G.
Notch It
Chris SINYR143
Jehuty V2
Sonic McTails
Boriqua
Mark W.
Koi-Public Transit is my Lifeline
SciGuy1904
Slant Man
Ron Dos 728
Are you forgetting someone?
Chuck Greene
The Sea Beach is postponed to next Sunday, when hopefully the weather will cooperate. (Saturday is back and forth on the J.)
...you know what I mean - with passengers.
The limits on where the BU cars can run with passangers makes these repetitive routes unavoidable.
--Mark
til next time
Sunday will be Sea Beach and Culver, and possibly one of the other lines, since the Culver is cut off from Manhattan at the north end.
At 10:30 PM last Friday night, I was at 34th/6th Ave and went outside for some fresh air and walked to 32/Broadway side, a favorite place for swipers. Seeing this, I secretly took 2 pictures of the swipers in action, then ducked over via. passageway back to Macy's side and summoned 3 officers there. I showed them the pictures, they went over and nearly busted them. Since they didn't see them in the actual transaction, they checked them over and chased them out of the system. Not once did the officers warned me that photography is illegal, they actually thanked me for my efforts to stop swipers from robbing our transit system.
See, as David of Broadway said, cameras ARE useful.
Jimmy
Everyone oughta photograph swipers, and email their photos straight to the MTA... maybe with a little note about their silly phot ban idea at the end...
I want to go 'shoot' me some swipers right now...
David
911 is for serious emergencies, let's not clog up the line with small change. There should be a separate non-emergency number for reporting petty larceny crimes.
Your pal,
Fred
There is, it's called 311.
Peace,
ANDEE
I thought that was more of an information line, not for police matters.
Peace,
ANDEE
David
http://www.mta.info/nyct/safety/index.html#security
For non-emergency situations in a station, the phone number for the nearest NYPD Transit District is posted (though not necessarily on the "unpaid" side of the turnstiles).
David
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
David
Great job David! Hopefully the MTA and the State legislature will realize how silly this photoban idea is, for this reason and many others (not to mention the fact that it won't do a damned thing to improve security).
Great work, David.
Congratulations.
Good going, watson
Hopefully the cops reproduced and shared the phtos with others in the transit bureau. These guys will show up again - but passing transit bureau officers will know who they are.
Regardless, I like what you did and I thank you.
Exactly. If insulin were outlawed tomorrow, diabetics would have (after exhausting whatever reserve they have), only two choices:
(1) die,
or
(2) obtain insulin illegally.
I don't think many would settle for Option 1. And you can bet that those diabetics would pay virtually any price whatsoever to get that insulin, and they'd have to go through some pretty sketchy characters to get to it.
The bottom line is, Outlawing anything only creates a black market, one run by crooks and their crooked mentalities.
There already is a black market for insulin. It can be used in combination with steroids and human growth hormone to produce massive muscle and strength gains. It's also very dangerous when used in that manner, however, and many of the hardcore budybuilders or powerlifters who have no trouble using 'roids and HGH will draw the line with using insulin.
Some or maybe all of the people who were arrested for attacking women at the Puerto Rican Day parade a few years ago were identified through pictures taken by spectators.
And it's been quipped that if the JFK assassination occurred today, there'd be no doubt whatsoever about what happened because it would have been caught on many different home videos.
Ban subway photography, with one exception...if you are photographing a crime being committed. Kinda like the no hand-held cell phones rule, except when calling 911.
Here's the loophole: subway photographers can take pics of each other holding cameras!
Not that I own one.... uhm yeah...
Recursion, anyone?
It makes perfect damn sense to me. It shows that the cop haters on this site can see that not all cops enforce the wrong law.
-Broadway Buffer
BTW, It's already against the law.
-Richard R.
Instead of *banning* photography in the subway, I propose that the MTA not only allows it, but *encourage* it. Although they will never be able to get anywhere near enough people to do this, think about it: If a significant amount of people are walking around taking pictures every which way, terrorists may be discouraged due to the sigificantly greater possibility of being caught on film (or digital media)... It would be like a survailance system on steroids as far as the terrorists would be concerned.
Now, as I said, I know that there is no way that they will get anywhere near enough people to do this, but if anyone can build off the idea, please do.
Might have worked with the old kind of terrorists. As for the new kind, the seem to enjoy being filmed before blowing themselves -- and others -- up.
W Bwy
Love you SWIPER!
Well, don't you?
They're actually more expensive, (Full 2 bucks usually), unless you're using a pay per ride metrocard, without the discount. Then it's a break even deal.
Koi
How about identifying the guys for those of us who've never met you?
Chuck Greene
MY photos are going up in a while.
-Chris
Adam
3549/3348, 3420/3645, 3418/3863, 3831/3382, 3617/3376
Is there anyone on this board who may work at Coney Island Yard, or familiar with car assignments on the Q who can tell my why this is the only trainset of R-32s assigned to the Q, and why is it made up of SO DAMN MANY mis-mated pairs? No one at Stillwell I know knows anything. An oddity that has the Train Man baffled!! (Can't know everything I guess!! More knowledge helps!! :-) )
wayne
Da Hui
Who says you can't go home again?
Here are two shots from today, taken a few hours apart:
Click the thumbnail to view the photo.
Da Hui
David
#3 West End Jeff
All ten of these were origially assigned to Coney Island prior to the arrival of the R40's and R40Ms.
I still have lots of pics of beloved R32 N's.
There was an R32 R train on the Sea Beach express tracks, waiting to get into 59th St - I guess it's a fill in. I've noticed that everyday around 4PM. Sometimes, it just runs light up the local track.
Jonathan
Stand clear of the closing gates, please!
It's you!
How are you gentleman?
Are your base are belong to us!!
You are on the way to destruction.
What you say !!
You have no chance to survive make your time.
Ha Ha Ha Ha ....
It does beg a question though. Comcast gives you legit web space so you don’t have to host your site on your home PC (which they don’t want you to do). Does Road Runner?
By the way, you didn’t answer the reactor question!
Hahahahahaha! Don't they own a store together?
Is that David of Broadway? Or Newkirk Plaza David?
-Chris
The Adverts look new. Are they original or just very good reproductions?
Matt
The side by side shots at Brighton Beach are just wonderful!
--Mark
The justification is that we are railfans and this is what we do, irregardless if we are on a MOD trip or not.
I had a blast on the yesterdays trip.
To actually ride the BU's was a the treats of treats. I cannot wait for next Saturdays trip.
Thank ou again Bill, Tony and the rest of the crew !!
P.S. I didnt get hassled at all re pictures at Stillwell !
What happened? I and a lot of others were at Stillwell after lunch and had no problems.
Your pal,
Fred
Thanks
Jeremy
And by all means spend some time at Howard, where you transfer between the Red Line and the Skokie Swift.
If you're going to be there before August 1, e-mail me.
Clinton on the Green/Lake line is neat as you can see into the CNW/Metra-UP station. Since most of the system is elevated, most spots are good. The Loop has lots of action. High speed runs include South Side Main (Green), the Skokie Swift, the Evanston Express, the Midway (Orange) and the Blue (Congress and O'Hare). Scary combinations of high speeds and bad track are on the Blue Line. Check out IIT on the Green Line and see how the school has dealt with the L.
Another neat trip is to take the bus (I know it's not a train, but...) from Howard to just west of Crawford (IIRC) and watch the transition of power from/to catenary to/from third rail. The CTA no. 97 also goes past the Skokie Shops (which is just north of the Swift ROW and just south of Oakton St.) where there are some old 2000s on display that are painted in Pullman Green and were intended for a Pullman museum. You could also get on the bus at Skokie. Pay attention on the Swift for evidence of stations past. Most just have a platform remnant with a hut or two on it.
Have a great trip and stay safe!
Matt
A good place to watch regular 'L' traffic is Belmont, just south of where the Brown Line branches off from the Red Line. The pedestrian bridge at the south end of the platforms gives a good view looking down the four-track section that the two lines share. If you go there in the afternoon you can easily see three or four trains at once, sometimes even more, on that section. Looking north from the bridge at the other end of the platforms you can watch the Brown Line trains turning left through a level junction.
Parking garages offer great views of Tower 18.
--Mark
Not all of them are in the Loop!
--Mark
I actually found all the CTA employees rather pleasant, and was not hassled at all(I had received a nice(and prompt) email from CTA customer service regarding their photo policy)
Enjoy Chicago, it is one of my favorite systems. Also, if you have time, check out the Science and Industry Museum (#6 bus stops close, just ask the driver to announce the stop when you board, #10 will take you straight there).
Or you could take the Metra Electric south to th 55-56-57 stop and exit at 57th and Lake Park (walk two blocks east).
Finally, to see how NOT to run crosstown bus feeders, you could take the Red Line to Garfield. Cross over to the south side and catch a #55 or #X55, either of which will drop you at the museum entrance. And then you could see the Red Line running *on the expressway* for track work.
I wouldn't advise taking the Green Line to 63rd and Cottage Grove or to Garfield. Those aren't neighborhoods to wander if you don't know them well.
Yeah, you really need two days to see that place. I allowed only one day and spent all my time on the electric stuff: the streetcar loop, the North Shore car on the main line, an operating trolleybus line (I was lucky, they do that only two days per month), and all that stuff in the barns. I just glanced at some of the steam and diesel equipment. Gives me an excuse to go back. :-)
Here are a small handful of the photos i took during the 4 day whirlwind tour of IRM, East Troy RR, and Chicago.
I have not found the 10 to be the most reliable in getting to/from the museum. In the two times I have gone, I have taken a taxi and the 6 for the southbound trip and the 6 once and the 10 once for the northbound trip. The reason I discovered the 6 as an option for the musuem was because after my first visit, the last number 10 of the day failed to show so we were all directed to the 6 stop. Then, on my last visit, while waiting on State Street for the 10, a MAN artic pulled up on the 6, and I decided to ride that instead of waiting for the 10. I did take the 10 back that time, but the tourists on that bus don't move to the back and they all seem to forget how to use the farebox while in the musuem, so as a result, we left many people behind who would have fit in the bus had people moved all the way back, and it took forever to load up as people tried to pay their fares.
South Lakeshore bus routes were realigned this past winter after construction was finished on Lakeshore Drive. The X28 is a real sleeper if you are going against the flow of commuters. But if you are with the flow, it gets crowded since it stops at the Sears Tower.
Ever think maybe the problem is you?
And, since there are plenty of rumors out there about Hyde Park and the neighborhoods around it, I figured he could use a little more guidance. After all, I've seen one or two CTA ads advising people to take the Green Line to the museum -- which is a really bad idea if you don't know Woodlawn. And the CTA won't mention one word about the Metra line -- since the CTA and Metra are competitors.
So no, I wouldn't consider the CTA a 100% authoritative source.
Matt
Robert Taylor Houses B stretched all the way down to 55th and State. You heard about the guy that got yanked from his car and beaten while they torched the car? That was in Woodlawn near where you were SE of campus. Be careful.
Now the University is acquiring large plots of land in Woodlawn; the strategic plan is to spread campus down to 63rd. That's great and all; but, they'll still have to pay out of pocket if they want the L to get extended past Cottage Grove. Woodlawn really shot themselves in the foot on that issue.
Yup. They already had most of the structure ready! I have some friends at U of C that are not very happy about not getting a U-Pass or having an L stop in a safely accessible place. 63rd and Cottage Grove I hear is NOT the place to be and that the U of C and Hyde Park really try to keep people on the correct side of the line by making it very inconvenient to cross over.
I rarely go off campus on foot, and then the destination is usually Bridgeport. I would hate to have been off campus back in the day...it is scary enough now in some places. (On foot) I never go north of 30th (except once to St. James with a group of other students) and I have only been south of 35th once (on State St.), after the projects were removed. I only went to 37th or so. They are building new condos down there! The tract between State and the Rock ROW will be really nice in a few years. East and west of campus seems okay, at least to Indiana as I have never been east of that except going through in a car. West is pretty nice, but there are bad spots. Draper and Kramer is trying to redevelop the shopping center at 35th and Indiana and trying to attract students...but it is a little sketchy getting there. The plaza looks nice enough though. They even had focus groups at school to see what shops we wanted. I've heard it's a little scary down there at night. If I need something at night I usually go to the Jewel at 12th and Wabash or to the Loop. I am never out past midnight or so. Most incidents occur in the wee hours of the night, so the smart thing is (best idea) to not be out that late or (if you really have to) to be with a group in a good area. After seeing what I presume is Woodlawn or Bronzeville, I REALLY watch where I am going.
Matt
FACT: The second time I was returning to the Loop and the #10 did show up, the tourists had trouble using the fare box and using their passes. I witnessed this myself. It is reasonable to wonder how most of these people were able to somehow pay their fare to get to the musuem and somehow couldn't figure it out again to get back.
Nowhere did I say I did not know where I was going or that the CTA staff or website was unhelpful. I simply said if you take the 6 to the museum, ask the driver to announce the stop because you won't know where to get off the bus otherwise. The stop is about a block before the bus passes the museum, and while the bus goes by the museum, there is no stop there. Unless you want to ride the 6 to wherever it ends in South Chicago, ask the driver to call out the stop.
I know where the routes mentioned in this thread go for the most part, I just wasn't aware of the changes because I don't live in Chicago. Perhaps the fact my handle starts with WMATA signifies that.
And I would say most people here are transit-savy yet they have the same right any other paying customer has to complain when expectations aren't met. I just received a 75 dollar travel voucher from Amtrak due to an issue that occurred about 10 days ago and even though Amtrak has financial issues, I do not regret requesting a refund one bit because their level of service was nowhere close to acceptable.
As for the Museum having no 6 stop -so you get off at the next stop and walk back. What's it gonna be like 10 miles? The thing is, I worked for a large NY cab company - I work in a manufacturing plant now - and I know how things can get screwed up. I didn't like it when people got all stressed out over it and I try not to do the same.
I've had some complaints with Amtrak too and also got cash back. So I was satisfied. If you wanna explain, I'd be interested to hear how you managed to pry 75 bucks out of them. Tommy
Where do I complain about the lack of a stop at the museum on the 6? I simply told anyone who wants to use that route to ask the driver because if they miss the stop, I haven't got a clue where the next one is.
I got 75 dollars out of them because it was an Acela Express. I have a corporate discount so I did not pay the full 157 to begin with.
And about the Amtrak refund, I meant what did you complain about? To get the 75 bucks I mean. HeeHee Tommy
The bus that never showed was a 10. We had to take a 6 instead. Hopefully that clears things up.
I got my refund from Amtrak because our Acela had a hot box and could not operate faster than 79 MPH from Crum Lynne, PA to Washington. We arrived 70 minutes late and we were not given the chance to transfer to the Regional which arrived in Washington 30 minutes before we did.
I've gotten refunds from Amtrak twice. The Acela refund you received sounds pretty fair, actually, due to your late arrival. Try asking an airline for money back cause your flight was delayed and I think you'll gain some appreciation for Amtrak.
Anyway, thanks for responding.
I'm hardly one to defend the airlines, but at least they've never called me a liar.
(BTW, you may think you're not one to "defend the airlines" but you just did.)
If critiquing Amtrak is defending the airlines in your eyes, so be it.
Similar to this (from Chicago-l.org):
Hope you enjoyed Chicago! :)
Matt
Also, if you walk over to 14th or 15th Street and Clark you can see the incline from the State Street Subway to the South Side elevated. Not many trains through there though -- since it's not in revenue service. (Not yet.)
I was there a couple weeks ago, on vacation from NY. Really enjoyed it.
You mean the Blue Line (Douglas branch), right? I haven't been out that way in a long time, so it's high on my priority list for my next visit, whenever that is.
And of course the outer end of the Brown Line is also good for that kind of action. A few years ago, I spent part of a morning walking between Kimball (the terminal) and either Rockwell or Francisco, taking pictures of the ground-level crossings and stations. And there's the bridge over the Chicago River, which you can see from a street bridge to the south.
Crossing at Kedzie
Crossing and station at Francisco
Bridge over Chicago River
(bleah... I need to make new scans of those pictures...)
Hey I stayed at the Holiday Inn-Merchandise Mart a couple years ago. The Mart CTA station is one of the nicest. Completely covered with an overhead walkway so you can reverse direction without having to go through the turnstiles again. (I know you know this.)
This time the Internet 'get a discounted downtown hotel room' site I use put me up at one of the hotels on Michigan Avenue near Congress Pky. I could look down on the South Side main line (Green and Orange line trains) from my room! Right where they curve over Harrison Street. Really cool.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/19/technology/19patent.html
What prize do they win - a box of Depends?
PS: Not that there should not be good escape pathways from a 3-storey building. Fire is still a real hazard and the local fire codes I’m sure are appropriately worded.
Maybe the goal is to help Darwin: people who assume a parachute can open in 30 feet deserve their hard landing.
-Robert King
And there's loads of people here who watch out their windows nervously waiting for a plane to hit at any moment. Our media's done a yeoman job of convincing farmers that their cows could explode at any moment, Dave Barry columns notwithstanding. Mass hysteria is alive and well and is now a political tool. Used to me mass hysteria only applied to UFO sightings, but now we've got republicans. :-\
1 - Canon EF camera body.
1 - Canon 50mm/f1.4 FD mount lens.
1 - Canon 35mm/f2.0 FD mount lens.
5 - 36 exposure Kodachrome 64 films.
How about that?
-Robert King
This next picture is from an IRT fantrip back in the '90s. Another unexpected occasion:
Thank goodness I am always armed with a camera, because this opportunity was totally unexpected.
I hope these pictures will post-I have been having a lot of trouble with transitgallery.com lately-and yes, I did a preview before posting.
Enjoy.
That Lo-V shot makes me want to demand a Lo-V fantrip: at least 1 before the guaranteed run on October 27th...
Word is that they are having a load of problems.
Non-profits are not exactly a conflict of interest with a public authority under the law - I was actually surprised to see that BMTman (A TA employee) wasn't running the Gate Cars ... he's got FAR more experience on them than anyone in C division, and I note also that our head of car equipment at Branford was involved in getting the BU's to roll on Funky Electric out in the Rockaways.
Us "old timers" could be a BIG help if only the MTA didn't have rectal-cranial intercession. I'd be HAPPY to do a round trip or two on the arnines again. Hell, I'd do it for FREE. There's NO excuse for the LoV's not rolling - there's STILL people who do that. They're just not on the property anymore it would seem. :(
I managed to spot BMTMan at the meet-up for last Saturday's trip: at most, he was just snapping photos. :(
I suppose my OWN malfunction is that I would have liked SO much to be there, but am flat broke and probably won't get to see ANY of these. At the same time, there's museums that are NOT run by Paturkey's wife that have the ACTUAL goods (no lowered roof on the BU's as one example) in pristine condition, have volunteers and experts who could be of help if arrangements were there, and perhaps if this shindig were of significance, arrangements could have been made to borrow and fix up for example SEASHORE'S *original* IRT car that was actually THERE on opening day, roofwork for Branford's HI-V in exchange for an appearance ... so much else.
Don't get me wrong, I'm EMININENTLY grateful that there's anything at all - but THIS year belongs to the IRT (I'm a died in the wool IND boy myself and won't be AROUND for its hundredth) and it's truly sad to hear that there could be a crimp in celebrating the ACTUAL event that's up this year. But I'm still glad to see everything else is coming back to life. However, to ME, the LoV's are front and center the "showpiece" ... at least THIS year. :(
Just got his layout back together and running in his new digs too.
If there WERE interest, there's many ways of working it out.
They are inside the main facility at Coney Island Maintenance.
What KIND of problems are there? Frozen axles? There's a wheel shop. Motors? The old ones are far easier to work on than the newer ones. And there are places that specialize in fast rebuilds of complete truck assemblies. From what I've seen, the rebuild of the trucks for the Johnstown car at Kingston was a spectacular success. It's not like any of this endangers normal union positions and activities. But of all the things to get rolling *this* year, the LoV's would have been the primary objective I'd think. I'm STILL very pleased to see that all of the others are out there now - not denigrating that in any way - however, the IRT is the "star" this year and I'm a bit disappointed to hear that they're having "problems."
MTA has the CREAM of the crop - there's no other car shop anywhere that can hold a candle to it. But my point is that there are OTHERS on the outside who would be only too happy to help make this all come together. If only we were asked. :(
Only the ones that were in the Museum originally(R12, R15, etc) will be returned to the museum.
What!? Booo! They should make more room or something. Get some of those cars that need some work on 'em done or something and place the rest of those cars there.
Even if those cars are converted, keep the livery so at least you have something... When those SMEE's run again, we should have the full 10-car monty!
It is a shame that not one of those cars were preserved.
http://www.bera.org/articles/Gtrip.html
Alas, there are no composites or MUDC's that I'm aware of in either display or running condition anywhere ...
They also have the sole surviving New York Railways trolley - later sold to TARS, then SDERy.
Neither are running right now, but both are essentially complete and in dry weather and indoors.
The triplexes (D-Types) ran for a MOD trip this past September:
http://lisa.subway.com.ru/09282003mod/
I surmised, after perusing this site, that there were mass scrappings of Lo-Vs from '65 to as late as '67. (long after the last revenue run in '65) It's too bad no one had the forsight to save two ten car sets; and build up an inventory of parts from several dozen of others. I don't know what the costs would've been, but after all, they're one of the originals. We wouldn't have this problem today.
As far as revenue service goes, the last time the Low-Vs operated in revenue service was in 1969 on what was left of the 3rd Ave El.
I forgot about that line. It's funny because it was definitely on my railfanning itinerary back in the 60's (after school of course). I lost interest in it after the Lo-Vs were replaced by the R-14s. BTW 1969 was also the year the last of the Canarsie BMT Standards were placed on the scrap line, which was the unused express tracks on the Sea Beach. It stretched for about five or six stations.
Ditto for the old pre contract Myrtle Ave El. I just barely remember seeing that rickety structure, and the Qs, while walking on Hoyt St., shopping at A&S etc. with my parents when I was a 6,7 year old trainbuff. The only thing I didn't like about the Qs was that canvas roof I was to notice years later. (We all know why *that* was necessary). :^(
The BRT did use the Chestnut St. incline to go to Rockaway Park. Must have been an interesting ride riding wooden "el" cars leaving the "el" and using LIRR trackage though the marshland out to Rockaway Park.
Bill "Newkirk"
There is a couple of other nostalgia cars coming out this week-end too.
That's right at the Branford Trolley Museum. Tentativly scheduled is our Arnine and our Red Bird. The Be-A-Motorman program will be repeated plus we'll be running a selection of trolley cars for your riding pleasure. Take an extra day off & make it into a 3 day week-end. Connecticut has a lot of things to see & do. I believe the New Britain Rock Cats baseball team is in town (heard a lot of radio adv. on the Hartford station this past week-end).
The 45-day discussion period hasn't even begun. It sounds almost as if the MTA isn't too interested in pursuing the matter. We can only hope.
Do nothing, pyth away the money, do MORE nothing and get re-elected. :(
Well, they found they can get their employees and the NYPD to enforce it even without it being a rule. THAT's more likely why they aren't "pursuing" it. :-/
Just a thought.
Saddam Hussein would be proud of us right now - I can see him smiling, in a dark, smelly, damp prison cell in some godforsaken hellhole...
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
NYCSS=New York City Subway System.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
What? Stop trying to be cool. There's nothing wrong with conforming to society.
NYCSS=New York City Subway System.
No, it stands for "ben diamond Needs Your Caring Social Services."
For the comment period to start, the MTA has to publish a “notice of rulemaking” in The New York State Register. Watch this space.
I’m wondering, since it’s been a couple of months, whether the MTA has decided to let the photoban proposal die a quiet death (“Still under consideration…”) as the reaction to it has been generally so negative.
A week ago Sunday, I was waiting for a photo at Ditmas when a cop walked onto the platform, which was largely deserted. We exchanged pleasantries, he asked me if everything was okay, I said yes, and he went back downstairs. My guess is that a T/O or C/R called me in (I had been hanging out on the Culver line for a while -- first at Avenue N as one train bypassed the station and another one stopped, and then at Ditmas) and the cop came to investigate. Seeing that I was obviously a harmless hobbyist, he left me alone without further ado.
In other words, he did exactly what he was supposed to do.
Too bad some of them feel obligated to make up rules as they go.
Here's the photo I was after, BTW:
I'll have to try that again when the sun is more cooperative.
R-32.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
R-32.
R-32.
R-32.
Drop me a line if you want to help out with the next protest... janastasio ( at ) earthlink.net
Certainly the harrassment is unacceptable, but photographers need to get the shoe on the other foot. Collect badge numbers, ostentatiously write them down (They have to give them to you) and then follow up with a letter of complaint and don’t let the matter drop. Make the path of least resistance be letting photographers alone.
Completely true! If you have a complaint, file one with the CCRB (Civilian Complaint Review Board. You could also file a complaint with Internal Affairs (but that's usually for more serious matters). I actually spoke to an Assistant District Attorney today about the issue (I'm working at the New York County DA's office this summer.) We had a lecture today on laws governing police action. Basically, the police have the right to question you. They cannot frisk you, forcibly stop you, arrest you, or issue you a summons for taking photographs in a non-restricted area pursuant to MTA NYCT rules. Please note: If the police question you, answer them! Don't ask "Why are you questioning me?" They have the right to be suspicious of you and have the right to question you. If for some strange reason you receive a summons, it will be thrown away in TAB court, because no law or rule exists (at the moment) that makes photography illegal. If you are issued a summons or if the police officer(s) go beyond questioning you, I urge you to file a complaint with the CCRB (obviously after the summons has already been thrown out.)
I've also been hearing stories here about Police Officers telling people that they should delete the photos from their digital cameras. The ADA I spoke to today said that saying that is beyond the scope of questioning. They certainly don't have the right to force you to delete the photos. But if they say it and leave you alone about it after, just ignore it; the CCRB probably wouldn't even consider it unless you received a summons.
~R142A
Hell a cop in Teaneck shot a kid IN THE BACK WHO WAS RUNNING AWAY FROM HIM. No harm (I guess on dead kid is no real problem) no foul.
the point is not to get there in the first place. i can't miss half a day of work just because some egotistical cop wants to write me a bum ticket and drag me to court.
Assume that if you're being questioned, that they're suspicious of you. From there, it's really entirely out of your hands. If you're pleasant, there will be more of a tendency to drop the matter; if you're not, there will be more of a tendency to pursue it, and you may even get yourself into some real trouble. Sure, ideally, nobody would be suspicious of photographers, but that's not a matter that's up for discussion between you and the cop who's pinpointed you. It's more of a policy matter, and I think that's what Joe's protests are about.
Besides, when more bogus summonses kicked out by TAB, there's more evidence that there's a targeting/harassment problem, and the more likely it will be that the problem will be solved. If you're interested in addressing the matter of the policy of targeting or harassment, you can begin by doing what R142 suggested: contact the NYPD. I would also suggest contacting MTA/NYCTA.
Don't ged mad - get even.
The first thing they expect you do if you apply to become a cop is the remember details like names, date, time, badge number even just from memory. It's really not that hard to concentrate and commit it to memory at least long enough for you to later write it down.
The trick is to not get upset or distracted if approached by a cop. Just answer their questiong, be reasonable, and leave. Write it all down and file the complaint afterwards. Clutter the system with complaints, and they'll eventually get the idea (or so I hope): it's not worth hassling people with cameras, because they're doing nothing wrong.
Mark
Mark
More PHOTOS here. Enjoy!
Your pal,
Fred
I am VERY jealous!!!
I took the ferry to Harborside instead.
Anyone know why or for how long PATH service was shut down?
See the BBC, the Scotsman, and ic South London.
But if Crossrail cannot open before 2013, as predicted, it won't help with the 2012 Olympic bid.
At least we will have a vaguely useful product at the end of this, unlike the Millennium Dome.
For that money I would want something really useful; they could cut costs by dropping the more controversial branches.
I have never seen any mention of a public inquiry, but project should be subject to due process (like Thameslink 2000).
There has been some public consultation, but there is less to object to with this project compared with Thameslink, where conservation nuts are up in arms over the plans for Bermondsey.
The core Crossrail route, the expensive part is not disputed, so at least that will be built. Branches will be easier to modify, both during building and afterwards, but I am concerned that doing Crossrail first will suck money away from cheaper, more sensible projects for a long time to come.
"Government set to back London "Crossrail"
Tue 20 July, 2004 03:47
LONDON (Reuters) - The government is expected to give conditional backing today for a long-mooted plan to link the east and west of London with an underground railway.
Transport Secretary Alistair Darling will make the announcement about "Crossrail" to parliament, government sources said, as part of his five-year plan for transport.
He is expected to seek a large chunk of the overall funding from the private sector.
Last year, Darling said if it went ahead, London companies would have to make a big contribution to fund the underground railway, which is estimated to cost 10 billion pounds.
Officials confirmed the broad thrust of the story but one said a Times report on Monday that said the line would be completed in time for the 2012 Olympics should be "treated with caution".
The project is seen as a vital component of London's bid to host the 2012 Olympics but experts say it is highly unlikely to be completed by then.
The government has long supported the project in principle but insisted the cost could not be met solely, or even largely, by taxpayers.
Ministers have been consulting with business about the scheme.
Companies in the City of London, the capital's financial heart, have warned they will not remain based there indefinitely without drastic improvement in transport links.
The plan, mooted for years by different administrations, was shelved by the previous Conservative government in 1996."
Hopefully by taxing the buggers.
Officials confirmed the broad thrust of the story but one said a Times report on Monday that said the line would be completed in time for the 2012 Olympics should be "treated with caution".
The project is seen as a vital component of London's bid to host the 2012 Olympics but experts say it is highly unlikely to be completed by then.
It could quite easily. You pass an Act of Parliament (which a railway needs anyway), using procedural devices such as guillotine motions to rush it through (time required: one day). Then you use the powers granted by Parliament to get on with building it.
That is precisely what the present announcement says they are now going to do. That's the easy bit, given the government's large parliamentary majority, and the fact that no-one is rally *against* Crossrail in principle - they are just against paying for it!
Finding the money cames next. That's the hard bit.
Okay, we need Ł10bn. Put as terms of the Act that the following companies must contribute Ł1bn, or they will be nationalised without compensation (in fact, that would probably make it a money bill, meaning that the Lords couldn't vote it down):
- Abbey National
- GATX Capital
- Halifax Bank
- HSBC
- Lombard
- Royal Bank of Scotland
- ARRIVA
- FirstGroup
- National Express
- Stagecoach
BTW why is your list of banks selective. Not sure I want RBS to start charging me Ł1 per cashpoint transaction!
Listen to all the Americans go "awww too bad".
(More or less, if you use a cash machine that doesn't belong to your bank, you pay two fees-- one assessed by the bank you used, and one by your bank for using some other bank-- often $1.50 each. It's not always that easy to find a machine by your own bank particularly if you use a small one or have traveled out of your region.)
I find it particularly annoying that the fees are flat rates rather than percentages. A $2 fee on a $20 withdrawal is quite steep indeed.
They are the ones who are screwing money out of the railways, mainly by controlling the supply of rolling stock (and its economic implications).
That might encourage Decentralisation and, maybe, obviate the need for Crossrail !
Presumably Crossrail would not be able to absorb LTS service in addition to both the Shenfield and Ebbsfleet services proposed--you could save another nice chunk of change by getting rid of the latter, with its longer tunnel section and new river crossing...
Actually, even now one can get from the Shenfield line to Heathrow entirely woth cross-platform transfers (at Stratford from the Shenfield commuter trains to the Central Line, then at Mile End to the Distrct Line, then at Hammersmith to the Piccadilly Line), but not many people know that, in all probability. Crossrail will do it on one train, and much faster. And the existing Thameslink service gets you from Bedford to Brighton on one train (I did that journey a couple of weeks ago), but it's slow, especially on the tortuous section between Blackfriars and London Bridge. Thameslink 2000 will facilitate more different north-south direct services, with treble the present capacity on the cross-London section.
Like many other UK railfans, I think they should get Paddington-Stratford built first, and start the Heathrow-Shenfield service, and worry about other branches later. Thameslink 200 should take priotiy over Crossrail phase 2.
Incidentally, construction of the existing Thameslink enabled BR to close Holborn Viaduct terminus, replacing it with City Thameslink, a through, underground station which is the prototype for future Thameslink 2000 stations. A new office block stands on the site of Holborn Viaduct station (as at Broad Street).
It isn't actually necessary to close down a railway terminus in order to make money from redevelopment of its site, of course - you can sell the air rights above the station. That happened at Charing Cross, which has an office block above it now.
One of the reasons for getting rid of the Holborn Viaduct, as far as I understand, was that it was a viaduct and removing the ROW allowed some road improvement projects that the old bridges prevented.
Nope. Holborn Viaduct is the name of the *street* that Holborn Viaduct station stood in; it's essentially a bridge that carries the continuation of the street called High Holborn over another street (Farringdon Road, maybe - I'm not sure and I don't have my A-Z map handy) running at right angles to it at a lower level. Holborn Viaduct is a *road* viaduct, not a *railway* viaduct, and it wasn't removed, it's still there.
However, it is true that the railway (the ex-Metropolitan Railway Snow Hill tunnel line, now Thameslink) has in part been lowered to eliminate a bridge carrying it over Ludgate Hill. The result is a very steep gradient (up, southbound) from the underground City Thameslink station to Blackfriars station, whose platforms are well above street level. City Thameslink station, incidentally, has twelve-car length platforms with entrances at each end. Thameslink trains (which are either four or eight cars), stop, both north- and south-bound, at the southern end, where the entrance is from Ludgate Hill. The northern entrance is from Holborn Viaduct, in the bottom of the office building that has replaced Holborn Viaduct station, but if you use that entrance you then have a long walk along the platform to your train, especially if it's a four-car one.
If Thameslink 2000 (which should now be renamed Thameslink 2020!) gets built, the idea is that its stations would be 12-car length, to increase the capacity of the line. City Thameslink was the prototype Thameslink 2000 station. I assume the new St Pancras Thameslink (or whatever they end up calling it) station now being built underneath St Pancras main line station, to replace the inadequate Kings Cross Thameslink station, will be of a similar design and twelve cars long. Kings Cross Thameslink station (which is more or less on the site of the original Kings Cross Metropolitan Line station of 1863) cannot be extended. Its platforms are very narrow, as well as being only eight cars long.
I really must get back there and see what has changed. I watched them rebuild the Snow Hill connections from the Circle Line around Farrindgon, but have never gone through the tunnel there!
That's been a while, then - the Thameslink trains have been running through since the early 1990s. It would be worth a trip next time you are in London - though a railfan window would make it even better, of course. Just south of Farringdon station there are some underground sidings (the old Smithfield Goods Yard, I think) where South East stable some trains between the peaks. One or two South East trains terminate at City Thameslink in the rush hour, as a sop to the former users of Holborn Viaduct station maybe, and then run into those sidings. (The rest of the day, the Catford Loop trains end in the terminus platforms at Blackfriars.) Then you see the rather boring face of things to come, City Thameslink station, which is curiously dimly lit (deliberately I assume), before tackling the mountain climb up to Blackfriars. I think it is odd that they made the southern entrance of City Thameslink the main one, as it is *very* close to Blackfriars; as City Thameslink is the replacement for Holborn Viaduct station, it might have more logical for the entrance on Holborn Viaduct to be the major one.
Time to go back on my next England visit!
If only there were a way of closing Euston... I'd cheer that on!!!
I guess it would be nice to have a one seat ride from Birmingham Snow Hill to Oxford Circus, but I don't see it happening, as there is no way they'd electrify all the way from London to Kidderminster. If that didn't happen, then there would be no easy way of closing Marylebone.
I agree that the Kingston line is very silly. It's not even what Kingston needs - that would be trams along the A240 and A243 corridors.
They are trying to increase capacity, not merely to replace it.
The trains that currently use Cannon Street and Fenchurch Street would still run and need somewhere to terminate.
Crossrail would not replace trains from Fenchurch Street to Tilbury and Southend, and Fenchurch Street station (which has 20 tph peak on 4 platforms) would still be needed. The option to have a Crossrail branch go that way was rejected.
Thameslink 2000 would not replace trains from Cannon Street to the south east; peak tph would be reduced slightly (to 21 tph), but Cannon Street would still be needed as a terminus. Charing Cross, the other terminus, would remain at capacity.
Ebbsfleet services proposed--you could save another nice chunk of change by getting rid of the latter
The Crossrail branch to Ebbsfleet is supposed to serve the "Thames Gateway" a marshland area under development.
The following is today's report from Reuters:
Government unveils London "Crossrail"
Tue 20 July, 2004 13:13
LONDON (Reuters) - The government has backed a long-mooted plan to link east and west London with an underground railway -- the Crossrail project -- but say funding remained to be sorted out.
"I am now confident that Crossrail should proceed although a major funding challenge remains," Transport Secretary Alistair Darling said on Tuesday, as he unveiled a five-year plan for transport.
Darling told parliament a bill would be introduced "at the earliest opportunity" to establish the powers needed for the construction of the rail link, the cost of which he confirmed as 10 billion pounds.
The government has long supported the project in principle but insisted the cost could not be met solely, or even largely, by taxpayers.
Ministers have been consulting with business about the scheme.
"Government will need to work with the Mayor and the London business community to find a funding solution where everyone pays their fair share," Darling said.
Companies in the City of London, the capital's financial heart, have said they will not remain there indefinitely without drastic improvement in transport links.
Crossrail was seen as a vital component of London's bid to host the 2012 Olympics but experts say it is highly unlikely to be completed by then.
Darling said he would find an additional 340 million pounds of government money for London's creaking transport network to add to the 2.9 billion pounds borrowing plan up to 2010, of the Transport for London body.
"Transport will be crucial to a successful British bid for the 2012 Olympics," Darling said.
It looks like the current government is reasonably serious about dealing with congestion!
"Crossrail was first mooted decades ago, and a hybrid bill, like the one announced today, was even introduced into the Commons under John Major, but failed to progress on "value for money". "
The government is still doubtful about the route of the western branches, so the project is at an early stage!
The National road congestion charge would be based on GPS, which didn't exist when I first heard the idea, long ago.
It says "up to 134 pence" per mile, which wouldn't amount to much if you were moving slowly or stuck in a traffic jam.
It's one which is a mix between being a private bill and a public one. For fuller explanation click here.
"Financial support from the London business community for Crossrail is not enough to close the funding gap for the Ł10bn project, according to Alistair Darling.
But in announcing a Crossrail parliamentary bill, the transport secretary, who gave in-principle backing for the east-west London link a year ago, said he was "now confident" it should proceed.
Although a previous bill in the 1990s failed through concerted opposition and ministerial indifference, Tuesday's announcement represents the most significant step forward for an ambitious scheme that has been dogged by delay and lack of government commitment and eaten up Ł300m in feasibility studies."
And after all those studies, Transport Minister Darling disagrees with the one of the routes that the line would take!
I note that the road pricing question is continuing to evolve. It will be interesting to see what congestion pricing on the roads will do to improve quality and quantity of public transportation!
- Rebuild the junctions at either end of Earl's Court station. Actually, not that much needs doing to vastly increase capacity. The total modifications at the Eastern end are an extra track FROM Gloucester Rd TO Earl's Court, entering Earl's Court at the southern end of the formation, and a crossover to allow trains from Hi Ken to use either westbound track (allowing one track to become Main only and the other Wimbledon only). A similar (but slightly trickier) job can be done at the western end.
- Rebuild the extra tracks from South Kensington to Gloucester Rd.
- Adjust the configuration at Hi Ken so that the western pair of tracks become through and the eastern pair terminal (for a Hi - South shuttle replacing the Circle).
- Lengthen platforms on the western part of the Circle (and to Hammersmith) to take 7 car trains.
- Close Aldgate station and remove the tracks.
- Build a lower level at Aldgate East, accessible from both the Met and the District. The line should continue from here via Canary Wharf to somewhere South of the River.
- Build a spur from the District at Monument to take over the Shenfield commuter service (to be re-electrified as 4th Rail DC). There should be three platforming tracks on the branch at Monument to allow extra rush hour trains to run without limiting capacity on the other branches.
I'll get round to drawing some sort of map of all this soon...
What you are proposing is a sub-surface line roughly equivalent to the eastern part of Crossrail. That seems a good idea, as nobody can decide where the western branches should go and (we have agreed before) they are relatively useless.
I can see the point of increasing the capacity of the District line somewhat, separating it from the Metropolitan, and extending one or other to Canary Wharf and beyond. But I don't quite understand your line from Monument to Shenfield.
If it's part of the District line, which would be useful, would it go through Aldgate East, and where would it come to the surface? I don't think you can build cut-and-cover in the City because of existing infrastructure (bank vaults).
If it's part of the District line, which would be useful, would it go through Aldgate East, and where would it come to the surface? I don't think you can build cut-and-cover in the City because of existing infrastructure (bank vaults).
It would be cut-and-cover along Bishopsgate. It would dive under the Met at Liverpool St, then rise to the surface before Bethnal Green.
If we're talking about things which require an Act of Parliament, the demolition of whatever parts of vaults may be under the public highway is a relatively small matter.
I've drawn a few diagrams of my capacity improving suggestions. I'm unlikely to be able to put them up online until I'm next in Leicester, but if you (or anyone else) would like a copy, then I will e-mail them.
Thanks R.B. I get the general idea now, and I look forward to seeing the plans when you have time to put them online.
People in north west England are angry about Crossrail, because Manchester's Metrolink tramway extension is canceled.
From Manchester Online:
Founder of Factory Records and Granada Reports presenter Tony Wilson said: "It's an absolute disgrace. I think it is absolutely outrageous to think that London is to get its Crossrail but we get nothing. It's no wonder that the government made this decision because they don't understand that the rest of the country has needs. The Metrolink is the greatest thing that has ever happened in the north west and its extension should have been automatic. This decision is shocking but it just shows why we need a regional government."
Cities seek to save tram plans — By Angela Jameson, Industrial Correspondent
COUNCIL leaders in two of the UK’s largest cities are pressing ahead with plans to build tram systems, in the face of Alistair Darling’s announcement last week that the light rail schemes were unacceptable because of soaring costs.
Manchester and Leeds city councillors are incensed that their tram schemes have been scrapped, particularly when the Government has sounded approval for Crossrail — a much more expensive, but London-based, transport project.
I see a couple of reasons for this. One is the fact that transport was taken out of John Prescott's bailiwick (remember Prescott was actually a sponsored candidate of the Rail, Maritime and Transport union) and given to Darling, who is basically a Treasury-minded type. The other is that the civil servants in the Dept of Transoport are notoriously pro-road and have never liked giving rail an level playing field; seeing a less determined minister take over, they took the opportunity to shift "departmental policy" back to the norm.
The Kingston branch has been deleted. All stations from Paddington to Maidenhead are now shown.
Also new photos on SubwaySpot and BusSpot:
New
R-32, 38, 44, 46, 68, 68a, RTS, Orion V, Orion VII, and C40lf photos.
Your pal,
Whoever
-Chris
-Broadway Buffer
I PLEAD THE FIFTH...!!!!
;-D
Crazy me, I thought everyone should be encouraged and welcomed to railfan....
They're carrying cameras, aren't they? Isn't that a felony yet?
Your pal,
Fred
I don't know if people actually check these links out when i post them, but i know that they might bring some enjoyment. So here it is, a video of the old third avenue el. The style reminds me of Stations of the Elevated a little bit. Enjoy:
This text allows you to view a video of the third avenue el.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Enjoy them!
-Chris
I recognize Ozzy, Lincoln, Jehuty and Bombardier...but who are the others?
-Chris
Your pal,
Fred
-Chris
Chuck Greene
Semper Paratus
Charles
-Chris
And just because I pointed fingers, doesn't necessarily mean I or NewKirk Plaza David did it. You have no proof of that. Therefore, you don't like punks who point fingers yet you are doing it yourself. And have done it in the past.
I'm not on good terms with Newkirk Plaza David, but I think I can say on his half that he just reported it and was not trying to point fingers at anyone.
I reported it, because a large interest was made in it when Newkirk Plaza David reported it twice.
I won't tell you whether or not I'm the one who did it, because you don't deserve to know because of other things you've said to me in the past. I guess you'll just have to catch me in the act...But wait, you don't know what I look like! LOL!!!!! Too bad for you :-( LOL!
-Broadway Buffer
Maybe it is something in my drink. My refridge just went on the blink and some stuff went bad. Must be the lemon juice is stale in my iced tea.
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
tell that to the flusher.
I saw a G train with a hat...
...A rocketing Arnine...
A cop with a way gone photo vest...
and, best of all, some 101 year old elevated cars...
There are more PHOTOS here. Enjoy!
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
All they have to do now is clear it and completely knock down the concrete platform... Of course, they'll also tear down the structure holding the entire platform and rebuild as with the other three platforms. It should be interesting.
Posted on:7/19/04 3:51:57 PM
Due to a fire in the vicinity of White Plains Road and Allerton Avenue, there is no (2) service in either direction between East 180th St and Gunhill Road until further notice.
Can anyone confirm?...ny1, 1010wins and Panynj are all silent on it.
Only the Newark to WTC trains are 8 cars. The Journal Sq and Hoboken trains are 7 cars.
SAS
R-32.
CG
Here's an example.
I wonder how that woman who suffered a serious head injury is doing?
She's probably called 1-800-MARGARITA already
David
But I coulda sworn the radio said (F), and not PATH. But I might have misheard.
Peace,
ANDEE
It was a hazy, somewhat rainy day...
But the Brooklyn Union cars and IND museum cars decided to come out and play. After splitting up and having a good run down the Brighton line, they got back together and decided to take a rest at Brighton Beach. Brooklyn Union Car 1404 decided to pose for some pictures - isn't she gorgeous? But of course, the inner beauty counts as much as the outer beauty. Just how does she stay so young and fresh-looking? Some sunshine and plenty of sleep in 207th St. Yard's barn.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch...
The D-types were grounded and depressed that they, too, couldn't go out and play. If they had stayed in the barn, they would have realized they weren't alone: an R-15, an R-17, and an R-33 were left behind, also. One R-110B was in so much trouble that he was stripped of his destination rollsign. An R-38 was sent to the psychiatric ward because, apparently, he was having an identity crisis (can you believe he thought he was a K train?) There was also a pair of R-62As who felt a little dizzy, so they decided to call in sick and go to the infirmary. The museum cars came back and joined their friends early in the evening.
So ends a day in the busy lives of subway cars.
Your pal,
Fred
til next time
!
I'll tell ya, my dreams have definitely helped my imagination and creative writing...
I never know whether it's a good thing to admit to having the miniscule amount of intelligence required to follow a couple of links and digest the content...
I'll tell ya, my dreams have definitely helped my imagination and creative writing...
Craziness and creativity rather go hand in hand.
Why? So we know that you have >3 braincells compared with <2 for the average politician? James, we know you better than that!
Craziness and creativity rather go hand in hand.
Absolutely! My pet rock and I just had a discussion about this last week…J
Ho ho hey hey! Any souvenirs? :)
City sues CSX in '01 derailment
Action claims railroad is responsible for accident; $10 million sought to cover costs; Vigorous defense vowed; NTSB probe still not done
By Laura Vozzella
Sun Staff
July 16, 2004, 1:22 PM EDT
The city of Baltimore filed a lawsuit against CSX Corp. today, claiming that the railroad was responsible for the July 18, 2001, derailment of a chemical-bearing train that burned for five days under downtown streets, closed businesses and disrupted baseball games.
The suit will seek $10 million to cover the cost of fighting the fire, repairing a broken water main and otherwise responding to the emergency, on top of the $374,000 CSX has paid.
"It was one of the largest city emergencies the city has seen in a long time," Mayor Martin O'Malley said Friday. O'Malley said CSX had only reimbursed the city $350,000 toward those costs.
Misty Skipper, a spokeswoman for CSX said the Jacksonville, Fla. company will review the complaint and defend itself vigorously.
"We will review these complaints and plan to defend them vigorously," Skipper said. "In the meantime, we continue to work with the National Transportation Safety Board in its investigation of the derailment and fire that occurred in the Howard Street Tunnel on July 18, 2001."
The suit is one of several filed in recent weeks against CSX and, in some cases, the city, as the three-year statute of limitations for claims related to the disaster nears. Because the third anniversary of the crash is Sunday, the deadline is Monday.
The suit comes before the National Transportation Safety Board has completed its investigation. The inquiry, not expected to be completed for months, might never determine what caused the derailment because evidence was consumed in the fire, experts have said.
The city contends that the train derailment sparked a fire that caused a water main behind the tunnel wall to burst, flooding streets and buildings and knocking out electrical and telecommunications systems. CSX says it was the other way around, with the water main break causing the derailment.
In a preliminary report released last July, the NTSB described "chronic water infiltration" in the tunnel that loosened bricks and mortar and could have contributed to the crash.
"To date, we have not seen evidence of a rail-related cause of the derailment," Skipper said.
In its lawsuit, the city intends to provide records of water flow in the reservoir feeding the Howard Street water main. The records show that the flow held steady at about 10 million gallons an hour in the first hours after the 3:07 p.m. derailment. About 6:30 p.m., the flow shot up to about 17 million gallons.
This week, the insurance companies for Oriole Park at Camden Yards and the Maryland Institute College of Art filed a lawsuit in Circuit Court.
The Orioles, which had to cancel several games, lost more than $1 million in ticket and concession sales, while the school suffered water, smoke and other property damage amounting to more than $100,000, the suit says. The Hartford Casualty Insurance Co. and the Hartford Insurance Co. of the Midwest are suing CSX and the city to recoup payments made to the team and art school to cover those losses.
The lawsuit blames CSX's "negligent and careless" maintenance of its tracks and trains, and the city's "negligent and careless" maintenance of its water system.
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
Copyright © 2004, The Baltimore Sun
As Parks Squabble, Train's Fate Dims
By MIKE BRANOM
The Associated Press
ORLANDO - There always has been fighting between Mickey Mouse, Shamu the killer whale and Universal's superheroes over tourists' dollars. That cutthroat capitalism now threatens a potential solution to booming Florida's traffic problems.
The SeaWorld Orlando and Universal Orlando theme parks believe it's best for Florida if a bullet train network is derailed before it ever leaves the station. High-speed rail is too expensive and more roads would better solve the state's gridlock, they say.
However, many question whether the parks' big-dollar contributions to an antitrain petition drive reflects anger the line bypasses their properties and delivers visitors seven miles away directly to rival Walt Disney World.
One civic leader says a shortsighted war could have long-term consequences.
``The tourist corridor is our bread and butter for not only the region, but the state,'' said Rep. John Mica, R-Altamonte Springs, the senior Floridian on the House Committee on Transportation & Infrastructure. ``At some point, they're going to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs for the economy.''
Constitutional Amendment
This fight became an inevitability four years ago, when the state's voters approved a constitutional amendment requiring the construction of a high-speed rail network. The first leg would run from Orlando International Airport to Tampa, with a cost currently estimated at $2.3 billion.
Ten miles west of the airport via the Bee Line Expressway is the International Drive tourist district, home to SeaWorld, Universal and the Orange County Convention Center; seven miles beyond, near the Central Florida GreeneWay toll road's end, is Disney.
Between the two tourist draws, Interstate 4 sees a daily average of more than 150,000 vehicles, according to 2003 figures provided by the Florida Department of Transportation.
The Florida High Speed Rail Authority decided on a route in October by looking to who could deliver the most passengers. It wasn't close, according to ridership studies: Disney offers 2.2 million riders annually, more than four times what I- Drive can deliver.
The station, if constructed, would be on 50 acres of Disney land at the confluence of three major traffic arteries: I-4, U.S. 192 and the Osceola Parkway.
``The GreeneWay is the best route for high-speed service,'' Disney spokesman Bill Warren said.
Even a longtime Disney critic admitted it would make more sense to put the station at Disney.
``When you try to make mass transit work, you have to make the trains go to where the people want to go,'' said Rollins College political science professor Rick Fogelsong.
Rivals Turn Up Heat
Stung by Disney's victory, SeaWorld and Universal have turned their lobbying efforts toward killing the train. The parks have combined to contribute $470,000 to DErail the Bullet Train (DEBT), which wants to put an amendment repeal before the voters in November. That's nearly one- third of the $1.48 million DEBT has collected.
SeaWorld's parent company wrapped its money in the rhetoric of a good corporate citizen.
``Because of the negative economic impact on the state of Florida, the taxpayers and businesses in the state, Anheuser-Busch does not support the high-speed rail project,'' the brewery said in a statement. ``The taxpayers of the state will be required to subsidize a losing proposition.''
``SeaWorld was lobbying for a stop at I-Drive,'' said C.C. ``Doc'' Dockery, who spent $3 million to get high speed rail on the 2000 ballot. ``Their opposition surfaced only after the authority voted for the GreeneWay location. There's nothing principled about that.''
This story can be found at: http://tampatrib.com/floridametronews/MGBJ3U74UWD.html
-----
About time someone sees this from a tourist/economic standpoint.
Disney World actually had its own airport for private planes, though it's no longer in use.
I guess we'll just have to wait until there are 500,000 thousand cars on interstate 4 before we see the "Bullet Train" back on the news again.
So you're saying in 2006 this will happen? :)
It's funny, the two ends, orlando and tampa has about 240+ cars a day on their portions. Orlando is expanding to connect to daytona, tampa connecting with plant city/lakeland. But....
Columbus ohio with it's 4billion dollar plan and LRT is freaking out and they ONLY see 150,000 cars a day, our RURAL segment has that same amount of cars and they're telling me it's not bad? Come on! These DEBT guys are nothing but bullies.
Mike
It is where at the Transit Museum gift shop I purchased a copy of the new Stan Fischler book "The Subway And The City" priced at $39.95 plus tax. This must-have and read book is a real heavy one, and it does tell the story again of the New York City subway in general with some great awesome photos. As an added bonus, the author also fondly tells stories from his personal life in connection with the story.
It was said that Stan Fischler was at the Transit Museum giving a lecture in relation to the book on Saturday 7/17/2004. Since he had lots of fond memories of riding the R-1/9's on the "GG" line during his youth (as he explained in the book), I wonder if he was able to go on that day inside R-9 #1802 downstairs on the platform level. With all except one "against the wall", the roll sign boxes on #1802 were signed up for the "GG" route.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
I hope they don't touch the signs on 3184. The R-10s were the A and the A was R-10 country. With all the hoopla about the subway's Centennial anniversary and plans to run the museum trains, it's a real shame that more R-10s weren't kept. I'd give anything to be on a train of Thunderbirds carrying A signs on a rip-roaring rocket ride up CPW again.
It was also where R-10 car #3000 was used in a special MTA-issued Diamond Jubliee poster in 1979, with a pencil drawing of the unit itself. The original drawing made was put on display for a while at the New York Historical Society on Central Park West.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
A MoD trip with an entire R-10 fleet = instant payout.
Now, we have 1575 to deal with... ;)
:)
In your opinions, will this cause the ridership for the R line in Brooklyn to drop big time in 2005?
-Broadway Buffer
Exactly, for trips to Manhattan, compared with the subway anything is a blip.
There is a significant population in Bay Ridge that is unwilling to ride the subway, due to attitudes developed in the 1970s and early 1980s. These people pay extra to ride an express bus that takes just as long, or even drive and pay big bucks to park, just to avoid riding with you and me. The water taxi will take riders from the auto and the express bus -- not a bad result from a transit point of view.
Even with it's fairly close proximity to the Bay Ridge Ave Station?
„due to attitudes developed in the 1970s and early 1980s"
I don't know of these attitudes. What do you mean, exactly?
-Broadway Buffer
The attitude that the subway is where the freaks, geeks, skells, ne'er-do-wells, skanks, ho's, crack-ho's, smack-ho's, muggers, buggerers, thugs, crooks, robbers, gangsters, gang-bangers and the like congregate to spawn more of their unholy kind. They actually did some of that back then (though much less than the "attitude" would suggest), certainly much more so than today. Of course people with the "attitude" haven't been to the flipside in 30+ years so they have no idea how much it's improved.
And the ferry will only go to one point in Manhattan. The R makes lots of stops in Manhattan and offers transfers to 10 other routes before even leaving Brooklyn.
Besides, peak ridership on the R is in Manhattan, not in Brooklyn.
That's five loong blocks from the station to the pier, witha rather neat change in elevation (there's a reason this place is called Bay RIDGE). Besides, have you looked at their prices (http://www.nywatertaxi.com/tickets.php? That's $5 one way ($4.50 if you a buy a 10 ticket book) which is more than the current Express bus fare, for service that runs every 40 minutes (5 trips between 6:30 and 9:30). And yes, I know this is for the Army terminal to Pier 11; since 69 St is further away, expect the fare to be even higher.
However, as current residents die out and move away, they will likely be replaced by new residents who moved there exactly because there is a subway. New people, new attitudes. I think that what has brought the subway back. If you are a white woman, and you were mugged on the subway in 1978 (or you know someone who was), it will be hard to change your mind. If you die or move away, you'll be replaced by someone who has no idea what things were like in 1978.
Unless our damn state government brings back the past.
The thought of having buses feed that station (or 8th Ave) now that the N is express had occurred to me. Having buses from Staten Island go there is another idea. To me, the whole bus network needs to be reorganized.
David
Most people use the express bus and many used the water ferry at 69th street and then at the army terminal
Total 2002 ridership from the four Bay Ridge subway stations is 7,560,570. Assuming all days of the year have equal ridership (obviously that's not the case in Bay Ridge, but I'll be generous), that's 20,714 per day.
The X27/37 has 68 scheduled trips from Bay Ridge to Manhattan on each weekday. According to your claim, the express buses carry at least 20,715 passengers per day.
Thus the average bus load, according to your claim, is at least 305. Those buses must be huge!
Now back to reality. The R runs every 6 minutes during rush hours and has cross-platform connections with expresses to both Broadway and 6th Avenue. What's the problem?
I imagine that some people who want to avoid having to transfer to crowded IRT trains at Atlantic Av might take such a water taxi. Or people who work within a short hike of the piers.
Would the water taxi be of any benefit to A train riders? I note that the A train is not available through a direct, single transfer for R riders. In fact the Broadway line never connects to an A or C train.
With the economy rebounding and housing and office space and cultural attractions being restored slowly but steadily in lower Manhattan, there will be plenty of business to go around - subway, water taxi and express bus.
There is a direct transfer between the A/C and the Broadway BMT at 42nd Street. For those with unlimiteds, there are also short out-of-system walks at Lawrence - Jay and Cortlandt - Fulton.
Your point about short, double-fare transfers is correct, but I don't know how many people use them.
Why on earth would anybody do that? What possible reason would anyone have for even considering it?
The ferry will be useful for people who live near Bay Ridge Avenue closer to the water than to the subway and who work in lower Manhattan. It won't be remotely useful to anyone who rides the A/C. I can't imagine why anyone would suggest it would be.
Exactly. You don't mind doing that, but a fair enumber of people do, if they are offered an alternative.
" or make two easy transfers (one cross-platform, one up an escalator) to get to 8th Avenue itself."
You and I don't mind doing that, but you and I are not typical riders.
Option 1 takes at least 20 minutes walking, about 20 minutes on the boat, and about 10 minutes on the A/C to reach West 4th, for a total of 50 minutes plus waits (which can be up to 40 minutes for the ferry).
Option 2 takes about 7 minutes on the R and about 20 minutes on the D, for a total of 27 minutes plus waits (which are no longer than a few minutes during rush hours).
Option 2 entails walking much longer distances, spending much more money, and taking much more time.
And you suggest that the typical rider would pick option 2? I'm not willing to ascribe such stupidity to the typical rider. The next time you need to get from Bay Ridge to 8th Avenue, feel free to use the ferry.
Why do you assume the rider automatically is closer to the subway than to the ferry? What if the opposite is true?
"which can be up to 40 minutes for the ferry). "
At rush hour? I think not. Plus, someone taking a ferry would plan to be at the ferry slip only a few minutes prior to departure.
"I'm not willing to ascribe such stupidity to the typical rider."
Then by necessity you are calling everyone who uses ferry service in New York a complete moron. It's good you made that clear and up-front.
http://www.nywatertaxi.com/brooklyn.php
The current schedule from B'klyn Army Terminal to Pier 11 is every 40 minutes during rush hours. Any reason you assume more frequent service from 69 St?
The ferry terminal is at the far northwest corner of Bay Ridge. Some patrons of the Bay Ridge Avenue station and perhaps the 77th Street station will find it closer than the subway. The rest of the neighborhood will still be closer to the subway.
At the Manhattan end, the ferry terminal is at Wall Street on the East River. The A/C does not stop at Wall Street on the East River. It stops at neither Wall Street nor the East River. Its closest stop to the ferry terminal is at Fulton and Nassau, 10-15 minutes away.
At rush hour? I think not.
The ferry in question doesn't operate at any other time.
Plus, someone taking a ferry would plan to be at the ferry slip only a few minutes prior to departure.
Plans get disrupted on occasion. A subway passenger who misses the train he was planning to catch loses 6 minutes. A ferry passenger who misses the boat he was planning to catch loses 40 minutes.
Some people work on schedules determined by others. If I have to be at work by 9:00, and the ferry-plus-subway combo gets me there at 9:05, I have no choice but to take the ferry 40 minutes earlier, even though that leaves me twiddling my thumbs for 35 minutes.
Then by necessity you are calling everyone who uses ferry service in New York a complete moron. It's good you made that clear and up-front.
Really? I wasn't aware that every ferry rider in New York spends $5 to be dropped off a 10-minute walk from the subway line they need. The ferry riders I've spoken to have told me that the ferry is their fastest, cheapest, and/or most convenient mode of travel available. Are they lying to me? Could they really make the same trip in a fraction of the time, for a fraction of the cost, and with a fraction of the walking via some other mode?
Of course the ferry does give you some great scenery. I could see myself riding the ferry one way and using the subway the other way because of the view and the sea breeze (on a nice day, that is).
Take the Subway one way and the ferry the other on a nice day. Its always good to have a commute change sometimes. It helps u work better after coming in on a ferry, so I suggest u take the ferry in the morning.
-Broadway Buffer
There should be more ferry access where possible, especially in the outer boroughs. Here in Queens, I think service was just recently restored to Far Rockaway.
I'd love to see ferry service to northern Queens.
-Broadway Buffer
Disney World actually had its own airport for private planes, though it's no longer in use.
I guess we'll just have to wait until there are 500,000 thousand cars on interstate 4 before we see the "Bullet Train" back on the news again.
So you're saying in 2006 this will happen? :)
It's funny, the two ends, orlando and tampa has about 240+ cars a day on their portions. Orlando is expanding to connect to daytona, tampa connecting with plant city/lakeland. But....
Columbus ohio with it's 4billion dollar plan and LRT is freaking out and they ONLY see 150,000 cars a day, our RURAL segment has that same amount of cars and they're telling me it's not bad? Come on! These DEBT guys are nothing but bullies.
New Haven, CT (WTNH Channel 8 News) link:
http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=2057677
The car being used is one of the demotored Budd SPV 2000s.
Great so they detect the bomb when the bomber and bag are on the train, thats like finding landmines with your foot.
The Fleecing of America at work.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Your pal,
Lab Rat
Got the N40/N41 to Freeport. Got the 8:29 out of Freeport(M7), connected to a C3 going to Patchogue at Babylon. I was really suprised to see, this thing was PACKED! SRO! TG I was only goin to Bay Shore. A lot of people got off at Bay Shore. Took one of those van services to the Bay Shore ferry terminal. Good thing I didn't have breakfast., That ride was so bumpy, I would've been chunkin all over the place(aint that a pleasant image)
The Bay Shore ferry terminal is pretty cool. Nice place. I think there were about 8 ferry slips. It was really busy there.
Applied for a job, walked up into town. Got the S40 to Sayville. As it pulled in, I snapped a picture of it. The driver started to give me greif about takin pics(What's ST's pic takin policy?). Went down to the ferry terminal over there. Applied for a job, then went back into town. Got some lunch, got the S40 to Patchogue RR station. Got a shot of I think an empty headin westbound. There was a suffolk cop watchin me, but he didn't bother me.
The Watch Hill ferry terminal was right there, but of course, it had to be closed. Walked down to the Davis Park terminal, applied for a job. Saw an old steamboat make a quick run around the area. I then decided to take a ride to Fire Island and back. It was a very nice ride.
Got the 4:43 out of Patchogue. The train was short a car, so it was SRO by the time we hit Bay Shore. Connected to a local to Freeport(another M7)
Got the 6:24 N40(413, very nice ride). SRO when we left the train station, all the way to HTC
At Mineola, took a few more train and bus pics, 2 MTA cops saw, they didn't do anything.
Got the 7:25 N23 to Port Washington(141)
Can't wait to see the pics.
Speaking of which, I'll be sad when level boarding levels Mineola. :( It was so nice being able to run for the train without ascending three stories. Now that I'm back in Hicksville, if you're caught under the trestle when the train rumbles overhead, you're SOL. :(
I'd say one of my favorite photos is 54. I like how that D is hidden within the flora: not to mention the superb shot of virtually every interlocking near 9th Avenue.
I'll look at yours if you'll look at mine from Saturday. :)
Actually, I already looked at yours - very good, thanks for putting them up, Chris.
The last two look (56 and 57) look to be identical.
Bob
wayne
Hey, don't look at me, just because I enjoy the panicked reactions doesn't mean I'd actually do it myself ... though there is something fun about being a prankster.
-Chris
Fireworks are so stupid, I just can't understand the point of them.
If it was fire crackers, then yeah.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Now I'd like to hear from Mr. IQ train minus 7 about how this hero cop should have been wearing depends for investigating a "harmless" suspicious package..
And it was also said, it was the officer himself who did it, he planted it, and he did it on purpose to show up and to make it look like he injured himself while checking this "suspicious" package.
Now some folks might say 9/11 "shell shock" contributed to that little explosion. Here's the news on that firecracker/ fireworks/ pipe bomb explosion.
Thousands of police officers were involved in 9/11-related work, many of them right on the scene, yet they're not setting off pipe bombs.
Good point. Perhaps there are a few nuts in every bunch.
You don't know how much I miss the good old days in NY when that law was barely enforced. I so loved the 4th of July back then... fireworks and a BBQ (Roman Candles were my favorites)... I am planning a vacation in South Carolina next year just so that I can enjoy that pleasure again :-)
Peace..:&:..Love
J e n
Peace..:&:..Love
J e n
Signed
T/O Mustang
Even if one bomb detonates every month in a subway system somewhere in the US, your chances of dying in a car accident or car-pedestrian accident are still much higher.
It would be terrible if Al Qaeda could manage a bomb campaign in the US. But your personal chances of getting zapped by such a campaign are extremely low.
On second thought, you sure it was a good idea to let 9/11 survivors wander around the city? If they're gonna be terrorists, as this one obviously was (after all, why spark a bomb in a staircase except to scare people?), then we might as well send 'em to Afghanistan to blow up the Al Qaeda jerks that killed their relatives to begin with, rather than scare folks that had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks to begin with. Maybe this cop was Mr. Anthrax, class of 2001?
Bill Wall told me about the upcoming Brooklyn Union fan trips at the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum on the day that Red Arrow 14 was presented and I checked the work schedule when I got home and found that I couldn't make it for any. What I didn't think to ask him then was if fan trips using these pieces of equipment are still going to take place after 2004? I don't know what my work schedule and the fan trip schedule looks like for the rest of the year and I'd like to come down and ride and photograph these cars but I don't know if I'll be able to do it before the Subway Centennial is over.
It would be a shame if all of these cars are parked in the transit museum and in the yards where they're stored without being run for years as a lot of them were before now after all the work that was done to get them running well again.
If anybody could post some information here or email me privately, I'd very greatful.
Thanks,
Robert King
That said, they certainly won't be as frequent as they are now, so catch them now if you can.
Formal arrangements have been known to change on occasion. Besides, what's wrong with fantrips on work trains?
It will be a matter of being at the right place at the right time.
til next time
I highly doubt that camp groups use the subway so much, relative to other passengers that it could ruin anything. The subway is provided for the purposes of conveying passengers from their origin to their destinations in order to provide for the region's commercial needs. It does not exist as an entertainment venue, that is secondary at best. If entertainment must suffer on behalf of transportation, then so be it.
So while some current adults may think that day-camp groups are annoying, etc -- just think about what the kids are learning about the city. Who knows, among those kids might come a new crop of rail-fans. Just a thought.
In any case, it all depends on the supervisers who watch them.
This is very true. I have often gone out of my way to compliment a chaperone of a well behaved group, be it a camp group or school group.
Peace,
ANDEE
On Wednesday, in the PM rush, I was stuck on a crowded D train between 7th Avenue and Columbus Circle for about 15 minutes (the train in front of us had gone BIE and nobody bothered to instruct the C/R to hold at 7th). The a/c couldn't keep up and the camp kids, who were occuping about a third of the seats in the car, wouldn't stop screaming.
I don't like camp groups on subway trains anymore.
Did you have materials with you to conduct an impromptu math course? :0)
1898...It's farewell to horse-drawn trolleys on Sixth and Eighth Avenues as electric train lines go into service.
Peace,
ANDEE
So lift 'em high and salute our astronauts - it took them 8 years to get there the first time, and they could possibly return in as little as 15! Isn't progress great?
3,000 mph? Guess there weren't any grade timers.
Your pal,
Fred
Click on the thumbnail below to enter my video album and then download the first video. Enjoy.
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
Anyway, I saw on Good Day New York this morning that a cop going home from work last night found a burning bag in a stairway. Apparently it then exploded. He was injured, but not seriously.
They are trying to determine if it was just a prank, or if it was actually something to be concerned about, and get the Terrorism Task Force in. Speculation was that it may have been a bag of fireworks, but who knows, they weren't clear on that at the time of the broadcast.
"...traces of black powder and ball bearings at the scene."
Ball bearings... If true, this is no prank. Ball bearings and nails are the same materials bombers use in Israel to inflict maxium casualties. This could be huge. I pray not.
~W
it could be anything. was the black powder and ball bearins part of the package? and if that were the case, were these fragments AS A result of the explosion, or were these fragments only ADDED to the bag to make it look like they would be from a bomb?
also the daily news, accurate they may be, likes to sensationalize the story to make it sound worse.
"A backpack that set off a small explosion in a Times Square subway station may have contained a pipe bomb and not just fireworks, as originally believed"
Tell Fox to Kiss the ASS of every American ...Especialy New Yorkers..
Pipe bombs, even crude ones, kill ... smells fishy ...
http://1010wins.com/topstories/winstopstories_story_202152847.html
Even if it turns out to be a pipe bomb, there are plenty of very plausible suspects other than Al Qaeda.
But folks need to remember that we once had George Matesky as well as FALN actually blowing up the subways years ago. And in this situation, we clearly have a loose nutcake - terrorists wouldn't go for such a piddly floor show, assuming that it was an attempt at "terrorism" in the first place. I really hope they NAIL this clown. :(
Bizarre, if it's true.
CG
And first reports from Faux News certainly doesn't help. :)
just pick one and tell me which one is better i agree with B.city college 137 street bound 1 local train and the next stop is D.lehman college bedford park boulevard
Gets the same point across in half the time without assaulting the passengers' ears.
www.photopermit.org
-Dave
Your pal,
Doubtful
What I am saying is that making your own Photo Permit means nothing if it wasn't officially issued by some agency.
It is almost like wearing a reflective vest that says "Offical Photographer" (we all know what trouble he got into).
Exactly. If the police are enforcing as law a photo ban that isn't law in the name of investigating "suspicious behavior," who's to think that it's going to be any different if you have a legally issued photo permit? The fact is, if they see something they decide is suspicious (or higher-ups insist they must check out), you're going to be accosted just the same whether you have a permit or not. In fact, if a permit system existed, you'd get the same treatment after presenting a permit as you get now without one (i.e. the default level of suspicion and harassment). And if you don't have a permit when the system exists, God help you. All it does is pivot the fulcrum further away from "innocent until proven guilty" toward "guilty until proven innocent."
And if, for the sake of argument, an officer walks up to question you for activity he believes to be suspicious, but immediately backs down and vacates upon the presentation of a photo permit, doesn't that make a permit a de facto "get out of jail free" card for an Al Qaeda operative who actually is up to devious purposes? And if you think background checks will weed out all the terrorists (so no photo permit will ever be issued to someone who is up to no good), and if photo permits are designed in such a way that it is absolutely impossible to produce a fake one, bear in mind that background checks didn't stop the 9/11 hijackers, and there are a number of "tattoo parlors" downtown which don't even have a tattoo artist on staff (I'll let you figure that one out).
til next time
You missed nothing; you actually bothered to read the site before critiquing it :)
ALL OF THIS IS FOR NOTHING!!!!
No matter what line of thinking one has.
The terrorist are gonna find out what they need to know, & if they need photo's they'll get'em phot ban or not!!!
Railfan's are gonna keep on clicking away anyway too!!!
This whole thing is a waste of cop power. when they could be used for real police work.
New Jersey Transit:
All trains will terminate at Hoboken Terminal where all passengers will have to transfer to ferry boats or PATH.
I also heard something about some trains that will be boarded at Syracuse Junction with police and K-9 units that will search the train before it proceeds into the tunnels.
Long Island Railroad:
All trains will terminate at Jamaica, Hunterspoint Ave, or Flatbush Ave where passengers will have to transfer to the Subway.
*All with exception to the Port Washington Branch which will stop at Woodside where trains will be boarded with police and K-9 units to search the train before it proceeds into the tunnels.
Again, only during the Republican National Convention.
-Broadway Buffer
LIRR anticipates offering regular service.
NJT will have regular service except on the M&E and Montclair/Boonton lines, where trains that would normally run to Penn will go to Hoboken.
CG
I would wait for further info in that case.
-Broadway Buffer
http://www.mta.info/lirr/service/RNC.htm
If you check the Newsday website, this is what they are reporting as well (albeit, apparently taken enitrely from the above link).
CG
-Broadway Buffer
NJT has only announced the diversion of midtown direct trains.
No commuter trains go through Syracuse, so if they have their search dogs stationed in Syracuse they'll have a long wait.
Ugh...
-Broadway Buffer
When all revenues and expenses are tallied, the convention probably will be a huge money-loser.
Sorry for the error, but I just noticed it now.
-Broadway Buffer
Posted on: 7/20/04 11:30:15 AM
Due to a Police Investigation at 34th Street & 6th Avenue in Manhattan, (B), (D), and (F) trains are bypassing the station in both directions until further notice.
So the V's stopping there? ;-)
-RJM
Any news from anyone...this one will be tough to call, considering a lot of the lines changed on 2/24/04.
Jonathan
OK then, what is "their system"?
And therein lies your problem Chris: Here, we tend to see deeper into things such as maintenance, car assignments, and things such as the all important MDBF (which should not be too different between similar equipment running from one yard). I would say that the MTA has made some good strides in saving money on maintenance and still doing decent maintenance (i.e., prior to the reopening of the Manhattan Bridge, Concourse was all-R68. Also, R44s and R38s are assigned to one line, R42s (most of them) to one shop, R46s to one shop, etc. The only car distributed throughout the system is the R32.) Just my two cents.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
The rankings take into account MDBF.
What about lines that run different types of equipment, weighted average?
Take the B and D, which shared equipment in 2003. The B made many more stops per mile than the D. If some failures were related to stops (braking, acceleration, doors), one would expect the B to have a lower MDBF than the D.
That doesn't reflect on the cars themselves, since, of course, they're the same cars. But it does reflect on the reliability of the route. And the report rates routes, not cars.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
How can you not be sure about the methodolgy if you just posted a link to it?
BIGGEST BS LINE in the entire report.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I Don't Wear Teal Pants?
Idiots Don't Want To Party?
OH...I Disagree With This Poster.
But, of course, I personally have the R142As as my favorite cars. Opinions make the world go 'round, so that's your explanation.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Don't you think thats a bit extreme?
Also too bad they hadn't invented the vandal shield back then. :-/
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
It would be great to get all the vandals to pay for what they did and clean, but you'd have so many people paying, cuz it was such a popular thing to do back then. Who knows, u might have even been one of them if you were around in the prime times of it!
Just playin :-)
-Broadway Buffer
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Also too bad they hadn't invented the vandal shield back then. :-/
Scratchiti wasn't even a big thing though, they were worrying about graffiti at the time.
How do you know that? Did you keep score on every consist serving on that line? And what about the other lines?
How are the announcements on other lines relevant to the rating of the 2?
The Strappies may not come to a conclusion you like; that's fine. But you haven't demonstrated that you know anything about doing a survey, collecting information based on a consistent methodology and analyzing results (but you do know how to throw mud). The Straphangers do know how to do that, and what's more, it was their survey instruments that, in part, earned them the credibility to apply pressure to the MTA Board and state government in the early 1980s to get the Capital Plan process started - and that's what brought the subway system back from a place very close to the junk heap.
I know Gene Russianoff and have worked with him on projects like the SAS (we served on a task force together). His organization has its strengths and weaknesses (they missed an opportunity to work out the final compromise on the Connector service plan) but they accomplish a lot.
So what you done for the subway lately - besides railfanning?
The only people who look dumb are the mediots who contuinue to frame this organization as a serious proponent of improving subway service.
On the other hand, I don't see you doing anything except throwing mud.
The only people who look dumb are the mediots who continue to frame this organization as a serious proponent of improving subway service.
Just because a line uses the same cars/yards doesn't mean that they're equal.
Standard NYPIRG operating procedure.
The South Bronx, Corona, and Jamaica are "mostly white"?
If so, that's a strong accusation. Do you have any facts to back it up? If you're skeptical, you can repeat the analysis (with the help of a few FOIL requests to get the data you need).
There are a few details I question, but overall, it seems to be on target.
Whether the methodology is a useful one is a different, and open, question.
If so, that's a strong accusation. Do you have any facts to back it up?
So, so naive ...
If a report makes up numbers to support its agenda but cites a quantitative methodology to arrive by the numbers, that's fraud. (It's also straightforward to verify. I assure you, if the methodology were a fraud, a member of the opposing political team would have sued by now.)
If this is fraud, it's pretty bad fraud. Four of the five routes that are ranked under $1.00 serve solidly middle-class neighborhoods. None of them even enter the Bronx!
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Of course it cannot be as frequent as the L, 6 and 7 trains, they don't have to share any tracks with any other line meanwhile the E has to share with the C in Manhattan, share the express track with the F in Queens. Then you have the switch at JC which is further away than it should of been which leads to some trains going to 179 St.
What the L needs is a way to efficiently short-turn alternate trains at Myrtle or Broadway Junction. (If it makes you happy, since you like expresses, you can think of it as an express that makes all stops as far as Myrtle and then bypasses all of the rest of the stops on the line. But since it isn't going to make any stops past Myrtle anyway, it might as well not travel all the way out to Canarsie and back with no passengers.)
It's time a railfans who knows the operation of the subway system, take over the straphangers campaign. Then reports could come out with credibility.
The Straphangers, as a group, are laughable.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Why? Passengers like to sit. The easier it is to get a seat, the better.
It's laughable that they rank the N last when this line had the biggest improved rerouting in years (putting it back on the bridge).
Read before you criticize. The report is based on 2003 statistics. It is littered with footnotes that emphasize that the ratings for the B, D, N, Q, and W are not based on their current routings.
It's laughable that they use the $2 figure as the highest rank when the average straphanger pays $1.26 for one ride.
I agree that the $2 scale is ridiculous, though not for that reason.
W Broadway Local
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
http://www.straphangers.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=006202;p=1
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
I post on both boards so I'll leave this one alone...
W Bwy Local
Your criticism is still valid. There are ways around the problem that perhaps should have been used. For instance, ignore the issue of crowding on the G and rank it based on the remaining measures. But one could legitimately argue that the G shouldn't be ranked along with the other routes if the G's score is computed differently from the scores of the other routes.
Then its time to come up with a new formula otherwise you will continue to see criticism with these Straps reports. My point is that they treat the G as if it were a shuttle train and not as a real subway line.
For instance, ignore the issue of crowding on the G and rank it based on the remaining measures.
I can agree with that, they can still do the breakdown ratio and so on...
The 6 is fairly reliable, but ranking it at the top is unjustified due to its severe bottlenecking issues at third avenue during the AM rush (the reason why I missed my first class entirely on the last day of school. Who cares, it was the last day, I know...), tie ups at parkchester during the PM, and very persistant train bunching.
Their ranking makes no sense at all.
W Broadway Local
The G train is not included because crowding data is not available.
W Broadway Local
Oh, no! Judging from the "fine workmanship" of their NJ Transit Comet V coaches, that crap should be broken in a few weeks, if not already!
However, let me cut to the chase: Did you have the local delicacy? :-D
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Sean@Temple
Click on the BU's to enter.
Cheers!
The last I heard, the MTA Board was suppose to vote on the proposed photo ban in september, and I can only assume they will be sticking to that plan since no one has heard otherwise. Thus, The time is drawing closer... September is right around the corner. It'll be back to school time again, time for us to teach the public and perhaps even the MTA board that signing off on a ban of photography within the NYC Subway system will protect no one, harm tourism and the local economy with it, and prove once again that the MTA is completely out of touch with reality.
The June 6th protest gave them a black eye in terms of PR, but one black eye is not enough. I want to plot another protest, sometime around early september that will be larger and better organized than the last one. The last one was essentially thrown together within a week, week and half worth of time. fast enough to get media noticed, but far too fast to allow for better collaboration, planning, spreading of the word, etc. (I can't count the number of people who came up to me and said 'if I knew about this sooner I could have had 50 more people come with me). This time around, I'd like to plan it better with whomever can give some time to help out. The better coordinated the plan, and the more people who volunteer to help out with whipping up a press release, creating a petition, spreading the word and sharing ideas, the bigger better and more effective it will be (not that all the effort that so many of you put into spreading the word last time was bad - it was great! I just know we can coordinate effort and get a lot more people out).
All of that said, if you're interested in helpin' out, drop me an email. I want to have one face to face meeting in the next week or two, then probably just plan it out online (email, web boards, chat... who has time to go to meetings all day anyway?!) after that.
- the joe
thejoe [ -at- ] mtude.com
http://photorights.mtude.com
(shorter url, full domain likely coming soon...)
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!
She's so annoying sometimes , that she just may work ! Let's get her!!!!!
She's perfect for a story like this .
Sept 2003
Oct 2003
My take on it is that the people at the bottom are doing what they're told to do (for the most part), ultimately, the orders come from the top. That, I believe, is what must be influenced, not just through protests, but with speaking to your local elected representatives. These are quasi-gov't organisations, remember.
Write them a letter (via snail mail) and see if you get a response...I haven't.
Your pal,
Fred
Selling a swipe to a tourist: $2.
Photographing the bum in the act and showing it to the cops: PRICELESS.
Also, some people who don't use unlimiteds might be more inclined to attend if they didn't have to pay three or four fares to participate. Meet inside a subway station and remain within the subway system.
It's sunken tube construction[4 tubes end to end,each about 375 feet long]Upper and lower levels with tracks side by side with dividing wall....
do they build the entire tunnel and then just drop it to the bottom of the river?
also, do they drop them full finished, with rails and everything there, or do they go in afterwards and do that?
lastly, how do they then connect it to the underground sections on either end?
The tunnel is then connected to the underground sections by boring through the remainder of the soil at the river bank.
Finally the new tunnel can be lined, and all the necessary hardware installed.
where are they made, and how big is each section?
Section were sunk at the bulkhead or as close as possible...to a trench dig out in the river bottom....
once they are in the correct position,divers weld the sections together and the tunnel is covered with rip-rap[loose rocks]and spoils....
the tube were broken thru to the route[under Roosevelt Island,Manhattan and Queens...lined with concrete and equiped.
David
Your pal,
Fred
It sure has a current, but most of it is due to tides.
To a small degree it is a genuine river, i.e., delivering fresh water from inland areas to the ocean. The Bronx River, which drains part of the Bronx and lower Westchester, flows into it.
Not very likely.
An amp of current at 110 V can kill a person.
That's only 110 watts, and probably only for a second or so by the time you're dead, so it's only 110 joules.
A nice hot cup of coffee is more than that. A bask in the sunshine is way more.
The effect of the current on your heart is a much more likely culprit.
It will if you're damp.
Classic case: take a shower and don't dry off too thoroughly. Step on frayed cord with damp feet while touching radiator with damp hand. Immediate death follows. This has happened.
110 Volts of DC (Direct Current) would kill you very, very quickly, if is touched where the resistance is low, like at the toes, at the fingers, behind the ear, or on the neck or chest because all the electricity flows in one direction. And the "letting go after 1 second" part of the question isn't possible, because once that starts flowing through you, you can't let go, because of the electrical attraction. So once you touch it, you're going to be attached for a long enough time to kill yourself. So think what 600 V DC would be like.
With 110 V AC, it's hard enough to let go (don't try this at home), but at least it will only burn you a little, not completely turn your blood into a Sears Diehard Battery.
I don't think there is any sort of electrical attraction at work here, but when you get electrocuted, your mussles tend to contract, making you hold on very tightly. If you were to be electrocuted by bumping your elbow against something, you'd flinch and probably break contact with it.
When posting pure guesses, please say something like "I guess" or "I think" so that this kind of stuff doesn't masquerade as fact.
What you're thinking of is called "let-go current." Put simply, there's a certain amount of current below which you will be able to "let go." A higher let-go current means that more current must be passed in order to prevent you from, for example, opening a hand that's grabbed a hot conductor. Let-go is frequency-dependent. From 0Hz (DC), as the frequency increases, let-go drops until bottoming out and then rising again. I think (note use of that phrase) that let-go actually bottoms out in the 50-60Hz range, right at the level that we use for energy distribution. So, if you care to look at it this way, the AC with which we all are familiar is actually more of a hazard than DC.
If you don't let go or aren't in a position to let go, then DC and AC (at any frequency) are roughly equally hazardous, voltage and current being equal.
**NOTE** Graphic Content listed post-mortem examination details.
ELECTROCUTION (an anomalous derivative fro~n electroexecution ; syn. electrothanasia ), the popular name, invented in America, for the infliction of the death penalty on criminals (see CAPITAL PUNISHMENT) by passing through the body of the condemned a sufficient current of electricity to cause death. The method was first adopted by the state of New York, a law making this method obligatory having been passed and approved by the governor on the 4th of June 1888.
When properly performed the effect is painless and instantaneous death. The mechanism of life, circulation and respiration cease with the first contact. Consciousness is blotted out instantly, and the prolonged application of the current ensures permanent derangement of the vital functions beyond recovery. Occasionally the drying of the sponges through undue generation of heat causes desquamation or superficial blistering of the skin at the site of the electrodes. Post-mortem discoloration, or post-mortem lividity, often appears during the first contact. The pupils of the eyes dilate instantly and remain dilated after death.
The post-mortem examination of electrocuted criminals reveals a number of interesting phenomena. The temperature of the body rises promptly after death to a very high point. At the site of the leg electrode a temperature of over 128 F. was registered within fifteen minutes in many cases. After the removal of the brain the temperature recorded in the spinal canal was often over 120 F. The development of this high temperature is to be regarded as resulting from the active metabolism of tissues not (somatically) dead within a body where all vital mechanisms have been abolished, there being no circulation to carry off the generated heat. The heart, at first flaccid when exposed soon after death, gradually contracts and assumes a tetanized condition; it empties itself of all blood and takes the form of a heart in systole. The lungs are usually devoid of blood and weigh only 7 or 8 ounces (avoird.) each. The blood is profoundly altered biochemically; it is of a very dark color and it rarely coagulates. (E. A. S.*)
The apparatus consists of a stationary engine, an alternating dynamo capable of generating a current at a pressure of 2000 volts, a death-chair with adjustable head-rest, binding straps and adjustable electrodes devised by E. F. Davis, the state electrician of New York. The voltmeter, ammeter and switch-board controlling the current are located in the executionroom; the dynamo-room is communicated with by electric signals. Before each execution the entire apparatus is thoroughly tested. When everything is in readiness the criminal is brought in and seats himself in the death-chair. His head, chest, arms and legs are secured by broad straps; one electrode thoroughly moistened with salt-solution is affixed to the head, and another to the calf of one leg, both electrodes being moulded so as to secure good contact. The application of the current is usually as follows: the contact is made with a high voltage (1700-1800 volts) for 5 to 7 seconds, reduced to 200 volts until a half-minute has elapsed; raised to high voltage for 3 to 5 seconds, again reduced to low voltage for 3 to 5 seconds, again reduced to a low voltage until one minute has elapsed, when it is again raised to the high voltage for a few seconds and the contact broken. The ammeter usually shows that from 7 to 10 amperes pass through the criminals body. A second or even a third brief contact is sometimes made, partly as a precautionary measure, but rather the more completely to abolish reflexes in the dead body. Calculations have shown that by this method of execution from 7 to 10 h. p. of energy are liberated in the criminals body. The time consumed by the strapping-in process is usually about 45 seconds, and the first contact is made about 70 seconds after the criminal has entered the death-chamber.
Suffice it to say, "don't whiz on the electric fence."
Stu
But I = V/R. Therefore an object with a certain resistance subjected to a given voltage (say 120 volts) has the same current flowing through it as an object with 5 times the resistance subject to 5 times the voltage (600 volts).
And by the way, volts are not a unit of energy. ("First of all, it takes only 12 V of energy for one to temporarily lose control of their muscles for a brief period of time. ")
While it is true that as little as 25ma can cause death, there must be enough current to overcome the inherent resistance of an object to complete the circuit. Using Ohm's Law, if there is enough power in a circuit, current will find the quickest path to ground. A human body will do fine in creating another path from a 3rd rail. If you're not touching a ground anywhere, you could survive but that's rarely the case. Ever notice a cat or one of those big gopher rats hopping around 3rd rails at some of the scummy stations?
Yet, a simple snap switch, which opens less than a half inch will stop the arc reliably, simply because the half inch is attained quicker than the arc can form. Arcs are also related to current, the higher the current the harder the arc is to stop, thus the use of blow-out coils and arc chutes on contactors.
If we go to the other end of the spectrum, where impedances are high, it is almost impossible to start an arc, in fact 25ma won't geneerate more than a tiny spark, which is almost impossible to sustain. Voltage is the pressure that moves the electrons. Current is the number of electrons being moved. Yes the third rail can supply tens of thousands of amps - but not to a high impedance load, and certainly not to an ungrounded load. Electricity deserves respect, and should be handled with due care, but carelessness is downright dangerous!
There are other factors like the muscle spasms induced by the current can force you keep in contact with the rail even when you are trying to get away from it.
Some people survive quite a lot of electricity! Perhaps the most famous is Ethel Rosenberg, who needed 3 cycles of the New York electric chair to kill her.
Which is, of course, cruel and unusual punishment.
Did you hear she was turned down for a job with the MTA? They found she made a very poor conductor.
Ok, bad joke...
The voltage itself won't kill you. It's how well your body is insulated. The higher the insulation, the less current you're body can carry. Touching the ground virtually removes any resistance.
If you are into basic math theory, then one should realize that although the voltage is the same, as the resistance in ohms goes higher, the current in amps must go lower to maintain the constant voltage (in this case 600V). Also the converse is true, the higher the current, the lower the resistance is that is present.
Standing on the 3rd rail only is kinda like how birds stand atop transmission wires without getting fried.
Also, may I point out that if you are really unlucky and you touch the third rail by chance while well grounded, you may even explode like a lightbulb! No kidding!
A memorable demonstration was performed at CTA's Skokie Shops as part of a railfan trip. A metal bar was placed on the third rail and the running rail with the power off. When power was applied, after a spectacular flash, the metal bar vanished. After witnessing that, we were free to roam the premises with exposed third rail everywhere. No mishaps for any railfans that day.
-Broadway Buffer
Once you are electrocuted with enough volts, you cannot move a muscle, so you would stay touching the rail.
Besides, that was just a scene in the movie.
I'm not sure what you mean; Can you be just lightly killed by it?
The DRPA continues to p*** money into the Delaware.
Interesting note towards the end of the article: the Roosevelt Island tram is currently losing $200K/year. The residents want to keep the tram, but they don’t use it enough to keep it viable!
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Where the heck have you been? In Baltimore? The light rail line formerly known as snidge-lerts operates every half hour until midnight (till 1:15 Sunday morning) between the Camden waterfront and 36th Street, Pennsauken, including the stop at the Broadway PATCO station.
Will it bring people? That's the question.
The out of state fanatics can complain about the TECO trolley losing money, but what happens when they factor in there's a special tax district on the line. And how much more tax is collected thanks to a half billion in development? 2 hotels? A large entertainment complex and cruise-ship port. And the fact it's a desintation in itself and almost 100% of the land on the trolley vincinity is almost built now?
No more fuzzy math, use all the varibles.
It was built as a Manhattan connector for the residents and is redundant now there is a subway stop on the island. So I can see there being pressure to discontinue service given that it doesn’t cover its operating costs—Spiderman I notwithstanding!
So I don’t think there’s any extra variables in the math to play with here.
Here it is.
Your pal,
Fred
How archaic.
And speaking of R32 flipdot signs, I saw this during the Saturday MoD trip:
-RJM
It doesn't really change anything does it? You don't leave the station any faster if you know the route of the train earlier.
And ,yes it does matter,if you are in a hurry.......
Geez,thought you learnedyour lesson about being a jerk...
so why don't YOU leave it alone.
Believe it or not, it does matter if you have to push through a crowd to get to the train or have a lot of stuff to pick up and go with.
If you're standing inside the platform, you won't see the designation until the train is in the station anyway.
Posted on:7/20/04 2:33:48 PM
Due to a smoke condition at 5th Avenue, service on the (7) line is suspended in both directions from Hunters Point Avenue to Times Square.
And IINM, the Long Island Sound counts.
-Chris
til next time
(tho I still regret holding 1 in my hand,
and putting it back down when it was selling for $8)
BUY BUY BUY!!
Anyway, temp or not temp. Anyone know?
-Broadway Buffer
1. (Not related to power) Train delayed 5 min. after So. Amboy due to bridge being up.
2. (Not related to power) Train delayed between bridge and Perth Amboy due to construction for 10 min.
3. (Related to power/signal probs) Train delayed at Secaucus 45 min. due to power/signal problems.
4. Train delayed 5 min. pulling into NYP due to lack of available tracks.
5. Train gets to NYP 1 hr., 5 min. late, resulting in irate passengers.
The action came at the organization’s COPE convention in June, during which members decided which candidates and ballot measures to support. The AFL-CIO’s endorsement joins that of many environmental groups, such as the Audubon Society, the Sierra Club and the Defenders of Wildlife which believe high speed rail can offer a more environmentally sound alternative to building more and more highways.
Florida Transportation Association, Inc. is a non-profit organization of individuals and businesses, formed in 2001 to promote innovative transportation alternatives for Floridians.
----
On a sidenote DEBT used an airline executive to do a "study" on the costs of the train and came uup with an inflated figure by as much as 400% higher than what the train companies all say they can work on.
I dont' know how much it means in a right to work 47% republican state, but as usual this is big stuff in urban area's. Just look at corruption and the sabotage involved with that unions hotel, Westin Diplomat.
Least we have some ppl we can count now.
Should've known you resided in Miami when you posed those Disney rail plans back then...do you have any updates on that?
As far as Disney goes there's no updates on any rail in Orlando or changes in the HSR route for a while. Wish some news on commuter rail would at least crop up.
Yea this is in one of my non-transit newsfeeds. Go figure. I believe transit and tourism are so tied together they're almost one word and not two.
Jul. 20--LAS VEGAS -- This gambling capital is looking to the monorail to ease traffic congestion, hoping it will be the solution that has rarely lived up to Walt Disney's dream for monorails more than 40 years ago.
The Las Vegas Monorail began whisking passengers last week along a four-mile, seven-stop stretch that connects some of the city's biggest resorts and convention sites, including the MGM Grand, Bally's, Harrah's, the Las Vegas Hilton and the Las Vegas Convention Center. A party celebrating the opening ferried special guests as fireworks were set off in the sky.
The city hopes the $650 million system -- all privately financed -- will ease congestion along "The Strip" and shorten the waits at taxi stands that can be 45 minutes during peak times and large conventions. Nearly 20 million riders a year are expected to take the monorail for a fare of $3, or $5.50 for a round trip.
The launch of a monorail in the United States hasn't received so much hoopla since Disney launched his German-designed version at Disneyland in Anaheim, Calif., in 1959. The theme-park creator had hoped the monorail would become a major form of urban transportation and was said to have lobbied different mayors to build one in their cities.
But the monorail has been identified for decades more as a form of fun and entertainment than as the makings of a transportation system.
"Unfortunately, as a result, the monorail became somewhat typecast as a ride," said Kim Pedersen, president and founder of the California-based Monorail Society, a group that promotes monorails. "Zoos, amusement parks and fairs featured monorails, but U.S. cities didn't. It never was taken seriously enough."
.....
click the link for the whole thing.
And Orlando NEEDS one of these things or something similiar.
And all these photos are of one spot, any other photos/areas anyways?
--Mark
-Mark
What he is doing is called "spamming"
Many thanks.
What Joe is doing is not spamming. He is advertising the availability of certain items to an audience with a natural interest in acquiring such stuff. In short, it's targeted advertising, and given the nature of the items I don't believe it's inappropriate for this site.
Quit whining and bellyaching and move on.
"eBay users may not post on Usenet groups (Internet newsgroups) or message boards to advertise
eBay or an eBay listing. If Usenet abuse is reported to eBay, we may among other remedies remove
the listing, issue a warning, or suspend the user's eBay account."
Get a free plug is better.
But Harry does bring up a point. Should this board be used for personal advertising? And if so shouldn't Dave be paid a fee for the priviledge?
Dave makes the rules, of course, but as far as I'm concerned occasional advertisments for rail-related items are okay.
Perhaps I wouldn't find it so objectionable if he clearly identified his ads as such in the subject line. His post wasn't a post about el demolition photos (or links to such photos); it was an offer to sell them to the highest bidder.
Again, what possible reason could you have for objecting to including a "FOR SALE" tag in the subject line so that people who are interested in discussions (as opposed to advertisements) won't waste their time?
If Mr. Saitta were willing to flag his posts with a FOR SALE tag in the subject line, those of us uninterested in advertisements would be able to easily skip them. A post with the subject line "IRT RD Avenue El 1956 Demolition Photos" from any other poster would most likely contain a link to photos freely available on the Internet, which I'm sure many of us would have been interested in seeing.
Your pal,
Fred
Count on using those new golden dollars !
Bill "Newkirk"
They're still there, as far as I know.
"Well, there is such a thing - sort of. When I was a freshman at UCLA, I encountered rows of vending machines that sold you sandwiches, soup, fruit, desserts of various types, chips, soda, yogurt and milk. They were near a big sit-down patio with picnic tables.
They're still there, as far as I know."
Thats his post.
Heres what says there still there, but I really am not sure if hes sure: "They're still there, as far as I know.", now you see?
And even in LA, just curious if there still there or not.
LA? I thought Ron was talking about NYC. You know..."University on the Corner of Lexington Avenue"....< G >
I noticed that the northbound platform is longer than the southbound. Anyone know why ?
Can't be for Aqueduct Race Track, that station (northbound only) is up the line.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was trying to figure it out one time using old LIRR schedules that I have and it seems as though Locust Manor is listed at the same milepost both before and after the elimination of Higbie and Cedar Manor.
On the other hand, Higbie Ave got quite a bit of service, while Cedar and Locust Manors had pretty sparse service -- so it would make sense that Higbie would be rebuilt a bit north of where it was (especially if Rochdale Village was already planned or built) when the line was elevated).
CG
Cedar Manor is up by Linden Boulevard. There's still a civic association up there using that name.
http://www.lirrhistory.com/farcksta.html
there were other stations along the line after Howard beach.The Raunt was one of them,and the TA did plan on using them at one point,before deciding not to[it would slow the line down]....
No, the LIRR terminated at South Ozone Park, just north of where the current "el" crosses over the ROW.
Bill "Newkirk"
Can't be for Aqueduct Race Track, that station (northbound only) is up the line.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hi Bill: The extra long northbound platform dates from the LIRR days. It was the original Aqueduct Station and was built as a high level from the beginning because of the heavy traffic going to the raceway. The northbound platform was the longer one as you said. It can hold about 26-6o foot cars if I recall correctly. It was built extra long to accomodate the racetrack crowds and several trains could load at the same time.
After the TA took over in 1956 the racetrack was somewhat realigned and a new "Aqueduct Racetrack Station" was built with a northbound platform only north of the original one to provide direct access to the racetrack. It is 600 feet.
The original Aqueduct Station was retained because it had platforms in both directions and serves the local community as well as the racetrack.
The Aqueduct Racetrack Station is only open on the days when the horses are running from about 9am to 7pm.
Larry, RedbirdR33
If you read BMT Green Hornet's post, he stated that the old Aqueduct grandstand that was adjacent to the Aqueduct/North Conduit station was demolished and a new one was constructed near the current Aqueduct Race Track station. I never knew that.
If you have a copy of "Change at Ozone Park", check the bottom photo on page 33. That shows the Aqueduct Station in the LIRR days. What puzzles me is that the four track ROW goes to three tracks south of the station. I thought it was four tracks from Ozone Park to Hamilton Beach.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's absolutely ridiculous. One of the problems with Robert Moses was his contempt for rail. New York City has one of the lowest rates of freight rail of any American city. If we had decent freight rail, all of our food could get in that way. We would also have other economic benefits. Truck freight is more expensive, and the lack of real freight rail has hurt industry in New York City.
Robert Moses did better before World War II. He did a pretty good job building parks. If only he stuck to that, New York would be much better off.
Just geography. If Hudson County and the Meadowlands were part of NYC, then its rail freight share would not be so low.
That's not how it worked in the past either.
I find that practice obnoxious, actually. Tractor-trailers belong on interstates-- nowhere else. They should be required to offload their cargo at a transfer warehouse near the interstate exit. How I long for an increase in rail freight!
Each transfer like that is going to cost money, extra costs that will be passed onto consumers.
Does anyone know of a good history that explains the demise of all those old freight operations on the West Side of Manhattan (street-level, not the High Line)? I would imagine that most of that freight came in by car ferry, but were there connections from the West Side New York Central to the street-level tracks?
I think there have been studies of the Brooklyn waterfront lines, but I don't know of any covering Manhattan.
Tied in with the non-use of the Poughkeepsie Bridge, it's a wonder any freight gets into the City at all.
Using the West Side route now used by Amtrak and reopening the High Line might remove hundreds of trucks from the river crossings.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
The street level route was the predecessor to the High Line and replaced the High Line. There were definitely spurs and the line did connect up to the line that runs under what is now Riverside Park. The route that it took south of the 60th Street Yard was 11th Avenue, then the street level 30th Street Yard, then 10th Avenue, West Street, Canal Street and Hudson Street. The freight terminal was where the Holland Tunnel exit helix has been since May 14, 1958. This was previously the site of St. John's Park, hence the name St. John's Park Freight Terminal, the name of the terminal occupying the superblock between Spring, West, Washington and Clarkson Streets to which the High Line used to run.
DIVERGENCE: St. John's park was named for St. John's Church, across Varick Street, which was demolished when Varick was widened in 1917 to build the Seventh Avenue subway. It is commemorated in the tiles at Canal Street on the 1&9.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
That's really funny. The High Line is an elevated railway to nowhere. There are very good reasons why the freight lines stopped using it.
Robert Moses is infamous only because New Yorkers are a tad provincial and think that if NYC is getting highways that are just like everywhere else, there must be something wrong with the guy who planned them.
Wasn't his job to plan highways and other people's jobs to vet the plans? That's why there is no highway connecting the Holland Tunnel with the Williamsburg or Manhattan Bridge, or a highway connecting the Williamsburg Bridge with the Interboro Parkway, or why 295 was never finished across 211 or 212 St. in Queens to the Cross Island Parkway. Most of the others are in reasonable locations: the Cross Bronx connects to the GW Bridge; maybe the Hutchinson River Parkway isn't needed, but it was there in the 1920s I believe. Maybe the Bruckner wasn't needed, except the Food Distribution Center for NYC is near there (Hunt's Point).
Minneapolis and St. Paul, to take one simple example, also has highways crisscrossing the Twin Cities, and some people may not like them, but they don't need a symbolic devil to hate just because he helped modernize the city.
Maybe we should scapegoat the guy who decided that the east-west streets were to be 1/20 mile apart, and the north south streets are 3/20 mile apart. What would Manhattan have been like if it were the other way: 35 one-way avenues, and 80 two-way wide crosstown Streets?
Moses' pal Ike Eisenhower is to thank for that.
Robert Moses was Parks Commissioner of New York City. His job was to plan parks.
According to Caro, one of the reasons the Henry Hudson Parkway runs through Inwood Hill Park is so it could receive funding as a park access road -- never mind that there's no access to the park from the parkway.
Baloney!!! That is the major asset of the parkway system. Could you just imagine the Southern and Northern States with one tractor trailer after another just like the LIE? It is a shame they now allow school buses and pickup trucks. And removing the wooden lights, wooden guardrails, and replacing the old fashioned signs is a crime. I do know it was done for safety reasons but sometimes you need a tradeoff.
It's been alleged on this board before that Robert Moses *deliberately* designed the underpasses leading to state beaches with such low headroom that buses couldn't get through them, so that no public transit could run to the "public" beaches, and people who couldn't afford cars couldn't get there.
Thats because there are no overpasses to deal with.
The main intent was always to keep buses (and those people who might be on the buses) away. How easy is it to use a bus to get from the city to any of the state parks that were built under Moses' tenure? Try getting to Jones Beach from the LIE.
So there goes that idea.
Exit 30 Glen Cove Road South, East on Old Country Road, South on Merrick Ave, Straight Down to Merrick Road, West on Merrick Road Briefly for Meadowbrook Parkway South.
-Chris
Given Big Bob The Builder's ego, one would suppose that he'd be greatly pleased to know that people are still talking about him so much in any context.
School buses regularly use the parkways now.
A bus company that wanted to provide service to Jones Beach.
As it stands, Long Island Bus runs service to Jones Beach from various places in Nassau County, connecting to the LIRR and to most other LIBus routes (thus putting it within one fare of NYC if these buses charge regular LIB fares).
There's a demand for HSR in this country but no investment in it. The old adage "you gotta spend money to make money" still applies . . .
How come in spite of the demand for airline service, the airlines are all going broke again?
Can't use the supply/demand argument for transportation, unfortunately.
Too much supply.
In addition, the low-cost carriers are shaking up the whole fare structure that had kept the legacy carriers profitable.
Nonsense. If the airlines cannot curtail their supply and thus not waste money, then they are out of control. However, I suspect that this is very much not the case.
In addition, the low-cost carriers are shaking up the whole fare structure that had kept the legacy carriers profitable
They're starting to lose money too.
Not to mention that if this were truly the case, then they would be able to take over the routes of those other airlines and negotiate lower landing fees.
They're starting to lose money too.
LCC's like Southwest, JetBlue and Air Tran aren't making as much as they had been, but aren't losing money either. What's happened is that the legacy carriers are cutting some advance purchase fares to LCC levels in a desparate attempt to retain market share. It's not a smart move in the long run because the legacy carriers' costs per seat-mile are almost uniformly higher than for the LCC's.
Also 135 is out of the way (coming from the city), If you look at a map of Nassau, it extends the mileage and time.
Moses was not evil in fact he came out of the progressive school which said that people can be helped by government that is rational and applies science to people's problems. the problem it seems is that Moses found a way to finance his projects without having anyone vote on them. As a result he became the "Masterbuilder" answerable to no one. He then began building without regard to anyone's opinion other than "traffic flow".
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutley.
Vince
That statement implies that those who believe that government is ineffective at solving people's problems are evil. I fall into that category, and I don't think that I'm evil.
My point is that Moses was not acting out of evil intentions. The progressive school of thought actually accomplished quite a bit in imporving people's lives in this country. Many people now feel that government's role in helping people should be curtailed to the extent possible (either because of inefficieny or the corruption systemic to large govenmental programs or other reasons). That is not an evil viewpoint either, merely a different viewpoint.
I will say parenthetically that without government involvement (clearing right of ways, subsisdies, etc no railroad, certianly now railroad in the environs of NYC could ever have been built. While owened by private entities the costs of each the IRT where borne (or at least guaranteed by the City.
But more to my main point, the holding of one view of government's role in helping people does not make anyone evil or virtuous. To demonize the other point of view is demogogury (Sp ?) which leads people to false conclusions.
Vince
Not true. Most of the railroads were built without government involvement.
So the idea of regular bus service from Nassau points to JB was kind of a moot point. It is true that he blocked the LIRR from building a spur from Freeport to the beach.
And it is also true that he built JB and Sunken meadows and the other Long Island parks for the middle classes, not the masses. Moses did not want to see these beaches become another Coney Island or Rockaway. I cannot comment on his attitude toward minorities, but he was definitely not a friend of poor people of any ethnic/racial background.
Vince
There is not.
What about regular bus service from NYC itself?
NYC residents were, after all, the audience Moses had in mind when he built Jones Beach. Or, rather, NYC residents with cars.
Transit access to all state parks would be nice but wholly impractical, given their dispersion.
what we did get was a completion of routes...
1)6th ave subway express tunnel/Chrystie st subway
2)11th street cut
3)Smith st subway connection to Culver El
4)IND Fulton st subway to Fulton El and the Rockaway line
What the MTA did after Moses...
1)63rd st subway and tunnel[not compleated]
2)Southeast Queens line[Archer ave subway,never completed]
3)Second ave subway[three sections, not completed]
4]Utica ave,Nostrand ave,Ave C,Long Island Expressway,and Rodgers ave rebuild =never funded...
Whats THE difference between now and when MOSES ran the TBTA?
Nothing.
some things never change,I guess....just different labels.
Don't forget about the projects . . .
There are very valid reasons to value one's property at greater than market rates, and the only person entitled to question those reasons is the property owner himself. Property is not money in a bank account, freely interchangeable with the same quantity of money in a different bank account.
If I buy a house next door to my ailing grandmother, it's worth more than market value to me.
If I buy an apartment around the corner from the shul, it's worth more than market value to me.
If my store has been selling merchandise at a loss for its first three years to build up a customer base, and the store is about to become profitable, it's worth more than market value to me.
This causes a problem for building roads only because we first decide where the road will go and then figure out how to obtain the property. If instead we first ascertained how much each plot of land would cost to buy (by asking the owners for binding quotes), we might then find that it would be cheaper to go around (or underneath!) a highly valued piece of property than to raise our offer. And the property owners themselves would have an incentive to fairly estimate the value of their land, since they'd be competing with their neighbors to sell.
So you mean the 2nd Ave Subway and the Ave C Subway and other subway projects that was to happin would had been real by now?
At the time it opened, I'm sure it suited the city's needs just fine. But they didn't plan for the future, and the size of the highways quickly became inadequate. And now we have the Major Deegan Expressway, Cross Bronx Expressway, and Jackie Robinson Parkway.
Robert Moses built hundreds of parks and playgrounds around the city. If you have a playground nearby, chances are it was a Robert Moses project. Millions of children owe their playtime to Robert Moses. I think that more of Robert Moses' projects were good rather than bad, and it's a shame that some never came to pass.
Good Moses projects:
Riverside Park
Lincoln Center
Jones Beach
Southern and Northern State Parkways
Orchard Beach
1939 and 1964 World's Fairs/Flushing Meadows-Corona Park
Verrazano-Narrows Bridge
Whitestone Bridge
the Jamaica Bay
How much of that arrogant reputation was manufactured by Robert Caro? You cannot read The Power Broker without feeling Caro wrote it with an extreme biased vendetta against Moses. As a matter of fact anytime I hear something negative about Moses it is something right from the book. I wonder what his reputation would have been had Caro never written the book.
Riverside Park is a great park, but imagine how much greater it would have been if the waterfront hadn't been set aside for six lanes of traffic.
Not Hell's Kitchen, Lincoln Square.
Hell's Kitchen is 40th to 60th west of 9th Ave and has been slowly gentrifying over the last 20 years.
1. Hell's Kitchen is a different neighborhood, see A1M's post.
2. The area now occupied by Lincoln Center was fairly diverse for its time, not a "Puerto Rican neighborhood."
3. It's not the heart of Midtown, either.
Hell's Kitchen is the extreme West Side of Manhattan from the 20's to the 50's. Into the 1970's it was populated largely by the Irish.
OTOH, even as a roadgeek, I still think that Moses isn't a God of highways. The Cross Bronx Expressway could have used one or two more tunnel segments as mitigation. The BQE could have used more buffer space between the ROW and the residences along the road and the expressway should have been built with better ramps. The LIE could have been designed with rapid transit tracks in the median or along the side of the ROW. As for a line along the Van Wyck, the types of people who would ride transit to an airport during the 1940s and 1950s aren't the types of people who are flying in planes since the Interstate Highway System didn't start becoming useful for interstate travel until the early 1960s and railroads were still getting decent passenger numbers.
The 1950s and 60s were all about cars and the first wave of suburbia. Of course people can blame Robert Moses, but other cities that lacked a figure like him built as many highways as New York City did. Various political figures could have sidelined him, but they chose not. People could have chosen not to run to the suburbs, but when offered nicer, newer housing, many people did so because they wanted the suburban lifestyle.
I can't blame Moses for sweetening the suburbs with tax deductions, paid for by everyone else.
But I can blame him for slicing through existing urban neighborhoods to pave high-speed conduits to the new suburbs.
Once it becomes obvious to the public that public policy is to build up suburbs at the expense of cities, the path of least resistance is to move to the suburbs.
Preferences don't exist in a vacuum. People preferred the suburbs because the cities were under attack.
Preferences don't exist in a vacuum. People preferred the suburbs because the cities were under attack.
In a country with immense political capital available to the people, why didn't anybody fight such policies with the exception of those who residences were condemned for highway construction?
Nobody during that period knew the effects of depopulating the cities, and besides, who would oppose a massive programme that also created jobs for young men and showed the "benefits" of Capitalism when many feared Communism? Plus, many people did find the suburbs aesthetically pleasing. You may not agree, but others did, and many took advantage of the tax dollars that they paid to move there.
BTW, there are various things that I don't know enough about from that period such as bank redlining to make stronger and plausible arguments, so I will apologize in advance if you think the above are weak agreements.
This is a good thread that can easily go in many directions because of the immense sociological issues that go beyond the title; e.g. the *racial* implications of REDLINING (solidifying ghettos, barrios) which is beyond the scope of this board.
Three words: Lower Manhattan Expressway. Remember the pecking order of yesteryear. Took organization to fight that. The people in the Bronx could not organize fast enough, being relatively newly-settled and rather fearful; but the people in Greenwich Village, close-knit and long-established, were better equipped to fight the tidal wave of urban "renewal". A good allegory against all of this (although unintended by the author) is a chapter of "Lord Of The Rings: Return Of The King" titled "The Scouring Of The Shire" . . .
You miss my point.
Forget cities or suburbs -- I'd love to live on a large, isolated plot of land hundreds of miles away from the nearest city, but with my own private plane and pilot that could fly me straight to Manhattan in a few minutes as often as I like. Unfortunately, such a lifestyle would be prohibitively expensive. If only the government would only force everyone to cover some of the costs it would entail!
As it stands, I can't say that this lifestyle is my preference, because I can't (or am unwilling to) pay for it. But if somebody else were required to pay for it, then it might become my preference.
Given the choice of following the new highways (built at public expense) out to the suburbs and taking advantage of tax rebates or remaining in the cities as they were being gutted, many obviously opted for the suburbs. Would they have opted for the suburbs in such great numbers if they alone had had to pay for the new infrastructure that they needed, with no help from those who stayed behind? Would they have opted for the suburbs in such great numbers if the government hadn't taken tax dollars from those who remained in existing housing and given it to those who built new housing? Obviously not.
I don't fault people for taking advantage of tax incentives and giveaways. I fault the policymakers who offer them.
Uhmm , I hate to break it to you , and it may be hard for you to understand seeing that you love city dwelling , but there are plenty people that love the suburbs because of the open spaces , grass , trees , privacy , etc . There are many things the suburbs offer that the city doesn't . And the city is a short train ride away if you want some of the city things .
Please do not make blanket statements such as that wereas you claim the only reason people moved to the suburbs was because the city was in bad shape , or being cut through . There are MANY people that prefer one family homes with a driveway .
That's not the suburbs. That's the country. And that's under attack, too, thanks to the interstates and the sprawl they create.
I live in the suburbs of NJ, and I assure you that grass, trees, privacy, and even the occasional open space does occur in the suburbs. Indeed, sprawl is so sprawling because so much of it consists of gardens and open space and wilderness on private soil: front yards, backyards, golf courses, parking lots, forests, the occassional farm, school lawns, soccer grounds, etc.
Nah, you live in the country. NJ suburbs consist of strip malls, jughandles, SUVs, closely-built McMansions, badly-designed traffic circles, noisy jake-brakes, little-league baseball fields, Acuras and Honda Civics with those extremely annoying buzzing-exhaust-pipes, and lots of traffic jams thanks to the overhead interstates.
Actually, being somewhat familiar with Levittown, I must point out that it now does, to some extent, give the impression of being "green" and lower-density, thanks to its winding streets and (by now) mature tree growth. The suburban 'hood where I live, developed starting in the mid-1960's, has much more of a crowded urban feel than Levittown even though its density is probably half or less.
I love animals but I don't live in the Bronx Zoo.
these public-private governments don't answer to noone except robert moses, and mebbe the governor.
If the LIE hadn't been built, then east-west railway systems would be have been developed to deliver goods to and from LI. This is documented - attempts were made in the 1950's and 1960's to increase railroad mileage but Moses always used the money for his own projects. If the LIE was all about goods, it should have been a commercial-only road or have separate roadways for commercial and private traffic, like the NJ Turnpike.
The LIE is a failure as a travel route. Its clogged with traffic through all of Queens and part of Nassau during daylight hours. I've driven it many, many times and I can't begin to count the number of delivery trucks I've seen stuck in traffic. Unfortunately, Moses made us reliant on vehicular traffic and ensured that rail couldn't be used to transport goods to LI for decades to come.
Sure, I've experienced some backups on the LIE, but they weren't horrible. On weekends I rarely have a problem.
The LIE is a failure as a travel route. Its clogged with traffic through all of Queens and part of Nassau during daylight hours. I've driven it many, many times and I can't begin to count the number of delivery trucks I've seen stuck in traffic. Unfortunately, Moses made us reliant on vehicular traffic and ensured that rail couldn't be used to transport goods to LI for decades to come.
The current RR system on Long Island is biased towards passenger rail operations, and unless four track mainlines would be built in order to avoid operational conflict, don't expect much in terms of freight rail. The lack of any Cross Harbour Rail Tunnel can be blamed on the Port Authority (RM didn't have much to do with), which was commissioned to build one during the 1920s. Car floats across the harbour aren't the best solution for a high-density freight, and Hell's Gate Bridge is cumbersome to use since rail traffic from West of the Hudson River must travel to Selkirk, NY (a bridge in Poughkeepsie was available up until the 1970s) to cross the river. Plus Long Island lacks much of the industries that are rail heavy. New Jersey's convenient access to rail is why it's much easier to set up shop there. Intermodal could work on Long Island, but any location would be subject to NIMBYs and hampered by poor regional rail access.
As for the LIE, there are times that I've found heavy traffic during middays and late nights, and there are some rush hours where I've beaten the subway + bus time (1h 20 min) to the Manhattan (hence why I'm a big advocate of LIRR service from eastern Queens). Traffic on the LIE depends on the day, weather, and accident counts.
I believe that a less-dominant Moses would have resulted in fewer highways, true, but a much better mass transit system. That may not be important in other cities, but it is here. Who knows how much more extensive the subway would have been without Moses' hogging the money.
1)Has the MTA,since taking over the TRIBORO BRIDGE TUNNEL AUTHORITY,built anything of any major importance.
2)Has the MTA built anything of major importance,AND FINISHED IT?
3)Has the MTA built any new subway or commuter rail lines of any real length[6 miles or more] since Moses?
The point is,if Moses put that energy into rail lines...we would have one hell of a rail system.
And if the MTA did the same, we would have one hell of a system,instead of alot of talk....
something to chew on...
Sean@Temple
To be more accurate, it was built with tax dollars; and the PANYNJ on their web site prides themselves over not needing tax revenue and being "self-sufficient". Big monument to hypocrisy there . . .
It was built by a surcharge on airline tickets using JFK, yes a "tax", but a tax on people actually USING the airport, not a blanket tax affecting everyone.
Your statement makes it sound like it was a blanket tax, effecting all taxpayers. There is a big difference.
Still a tax. The PANYNJ prides themselves on not needing tax to support their capital projects; this time, they were caught out there. Whatever happened to "free market", eh? You can argue the same thing about the cigarette tax, that it doesn't affect everyone. Come on.
Your statement makes it sound like it was a blanket tax, effecting all taxpayers. There is a big difference
No, not a big difference. A tax is a tax. The PANYNJ suddenly couldn't build the AirTrain out-of-pocket and trust that the $5 fare could cover all costs?
Yes it is. Read again where I said that the PANYNJ prides themselves on not needing tax revenue of any kind to support themselves in terms of operations and their capital projects. It's on several pages of their website. So what's it gonna be, free market or big government?
it was very clear from the beginning that a surcharge was being added to Kennedy flights to build this . People who used Kennedy paid , people that didn't use it didn't
What does that mean? People who use cigarettes are the only ones that pay tax on cigarettes, people who buy imports are the only ones that pay import duties, ad nauseam. Doesn't make it any less of a tax. Doesn't make the PANYNJ any less hypocritical for accepting that tax revenue instead of putting up their own cash to build Airtrain.
Hardly a hardship on those using Kennedy , and hardly a tax that was "hidden" . If you didn't use the airport , you didn' pay a dime , so no , it was not built using general taxpayer money
Irrelevant. Again, PANYNJ is a self-sufficient organization. They accepted what is tantamount to welfare in order to build the Airtrain. Get it now? Or will you continue to be hypnotized by the arguments of Big Brother.
It's quite relevant because the PANYNJ is publicly admitting to be hypocritical. Even more relevant because the public is saying "so what".
So intra-airport and parking lot travelers can thank subway riders for paying for their rides.
Probably LIRR riders more than subway riders. Anyway, what's the big deal? This fare arrangement was known from the beginning.
OK, one more time:
No, it's not the most logical or fairest place to get the funding from. If you want to follow the gas tax logic, then all of that revenue should have gone right into the actual airport infrastructure that serves the airliners.
What's wrong with getting it from the PANYNJ's kitty proper? They are not short of funds for building large projects. They built the "Waterfront Connection" in New Jersey and they are also putting their money into rehabilitating Hoboken Terminal's ferry slips—all without charging "surcharges" on NJT rail riders, how about that. They got tons of money.
Not all people who use JFK to fly will use the Airtrain. Therefore, those people got ripped off to build a service that they will never use. And that is the vast majority of airline passengers in and out of there.
Of course, if you disagree with any of the above, then you will have to acknowledge the government's, and PANYNJ's, obligation to provide better rail service not only in the tri-state area, but throughout the whole country.
LI got smothered because of the LIE.
Drawning? That's a new word.
No businesses would have set up on LI, because it's traffic would be a nightmare
Traffic's a nightmare now. And there's far less business on the island than compared to decades ago.
To compete with the rest of the country that has good roads , LI needed good roads too
What do you mean "compete with the rest of the country"? LI is not in competition with the rest of the country from an economical perspective. And LI has bad roads. That's why the LIRR for the most part has been kept around.
You know he meant "drowning", and yes we would be. A better response would have been to address his statement, not a trivial typo error.
Traffic's a nightmare now. And there's far less business on the island than compared to decades ago.
How so? Yes, LI's business has shifted from manufacturing and agriculture to service and retail. There is plenty of new office space with big companies on Long Island, and way more retail business.
And LI has bad roads. That's why the LIRR for the most part has been kept around.
And that's the entire point. It would have been unlivable and un workable without the LIE. Our roads are bad, but people here are suggesting that they would have preferred it to be worse, without such major arteries.
Not at all. The LIRR's main purpose is providing access to Manhattan, primarily for daily commuters. Intra-Island and other non-Manhattan traffic isn't enough to keep the system running. Even if Long Island highways were vastly expanded and upgraded, Manhattan's traffic and parking situation would still keep most commuters on the LIRR and therefore would provide the system with its reason for being.
But why is it horrible? Because of the LIE and other arteries feeding cars into Manhattan.
I meant by TRAIN....not truck.
Ok, now I'm really lost with myself. I kind of don't know what to think..........
Don't dare think of LA as the ideal. They can't get rail built fast enough to have people and goods bypass those clogged-up roads. Do you really want "the oyland" to be like LA?? Think before you answer.
He wasn't asking for an LA type road. He stated that if it hadn't been for the Northern State and the Southern State existing, the LIE would have had to have been larger to accomodate the traffic that are covered by those roads. That was in respose to NIMBY's suggestion that it was "stupid" to have the Northern state and the LIE. Think before you answer.
But wasn't he? Consider all the previous replies about how dependent LI is on the LIE—and an offhand mention of a double-deck expressway can be implied as desirable, the existence of NSP and SSP notwithstanding.
Robert Moses was one part of it. The ENTIRE country is auto oriented, not just LI. Robert Moses didn't cause the entire country to become auto oriented. Actually, transit-wise we are much better off than many parts of the country (even if even our system leads lots to be desired). You can't blame Robert Moses for a phenomena that affects the whole country.
NSP is a total waste b/c it parallels LIE.
The Northen State was built way before the LIE, and only as a passenger scenic route, and the LIE was built as part of the interstate highway system, with all traffic in mind.
Also, both the Northern State and Southern State were much smaller when Robert Moses built them. The Bethpage State parkway is a good exampole of what all the parkways were built to look like.
And if NSP was built before LIE, then why the hell did we not just extend NSP and raise the bridge clearances!? It would've been so much cheaper and much better than having 2 damn highways right next to eachother.
Four legs good; two legs better.
there was a demand by people for cars , he just gave them what they wanted
What's that got to do with highways, really . . . ? Not to mention subsidizing those highways?
BTW, there's a demand by people for heroin also; should we give them what they want?
It's not just a matter of bridge clearances. The NSP does not comply with Interstate Highway standards, due to its sharp curves, ramp layouts, and probably other things, and the cost of bringing it into compliance would have been enormous. In addition, the NSP ends abruptly in Hauppague, which even back when the LIE was built was too far west.
Compliance with Interstate standards is necessary in order to get federal funding. In addition, the NSP as it now stands is woefully inadequate to handle LIE-style traffic volumes, especially if you add commercial vehicles to the mix.
Wanted to? Most had no choice in the matter. Public transport was being cut to the bone at the expense of this "demand" that was really the demand of you-know-who. Remember, less than half of people in NYC own cars, because of a choice existing.
People were buying cars because they wanted them. Transit was cut because less people were using it because they had cars. You make it sound like transit was cut before people had cars, and only had to get cars because there was no transit. Not so. Private companies still ran transit at the time cars were become popular. Private companies run business to make a PROFIT, when there is no profit, there is no business, and service is cut. By the time pub;ic transportation came under public ownnership, the car already had a stronghold.
Remember, less than half of people in NYC own cars, because of a choice existing
The only reason for that is because a car is basically a hardship in the city, not because public transportation is so readily available in the city. If car ownership in the city was not such a pain in the @$$, then more people would have cars. The "choice" of public transportation makes it possible to not own a car in the city. It's not necessarily a choice done because someone doesn't actually ewant a car.
The only reason for that is because a car is basically a hardship in the city, not because public transportation is so readily available in the city. If car ownership in the city was not such a pain in the @$$, then more people would have cars. The "choice" of public transportation makes it possible to not own a car in the city. It's not necessarily a choice done because someone doesn't actually ewant a car.
Exactly, finding parking is difficult, paying for parking is expensive, parking violation tickets are exensive (some of which occur because the person didn't wake up in time to move their car across the street), tolls are expensive and insurance is rediculous. Why not save several hundred a month and use the mass transit? Im sure if auto ownership was cheaper in this area that alot more vehicles would be on the road.
If car ownership in the city was not such a pain in the @$$, then more people would have cars.
Nonsense. These people can easily afford to have cars, not to mention afford paying for places off the street to park those cars. They live in NYC, FCOL. Can't add two and two together?
How , using Robert Moses tactics ?
The Northern State is not a total waste . First of all , it existed BEFORE the LIE . Second of all , the LIE would be 12 lanes wide if there was no Northern .
As for Robert Moses , he didn't cause the country's orientation to autos , he was just one man changing the face of the NY metro area . The entire country was converting to autos . You can't blame the reliance on autos on Robert Moses . This happened all over the country . New York was just one part of it .
The entire country was building an interstate highway system then too , not just NY was getting better roads and bridges . This country would not be what it is today without the interstate highway system which NY has a small part of . Europe even has the Autobahn .
Don't think NY would not have a main artery through it if Robert Moses didn't exist , someone else would have done it .
Most of his visions and projects are not bad , his tactics were . But no one can deny we would not be the great city we are now without many of his projects . There was a demand for these projects . It's not like Robert Moses was some sort of self appointed dicatator that just decided to build roads and bridges .
True. That was Eisenhower and the lobbies that propped him up. Moses only caused his little corner of the empire to be so auto-oriented.
I know that. I said he was responsible for LIs shift to auto use. Why? B/c he made their use more convinient by building roadways in which they could be used more efficiently.
But are you doing the speed limit?
And let's say there was a direct train from your station to NY Penn? Add in a 100 mph speed limit on the rails instead of an 80 mph one?
Did you add in time to find a parking space in Manhattan, too? (If you were on the train, you wouldn't have to worry about that.)
An intermodal facility could easily be built at the Pilgrim site, with little NIMBY problems. Why? Parsons Brinkerhoff is working to figure out a way to get the trucks to the LIE. So far, the Sagtikos Parkway is the way, which works fine.
And even if the LIE hadn't been built, then the intermodal yard would probably still have been built, a LONG time ago. And plus, this site is on the main line. Just add one track for the entire length of the line to pilgrim and there you go. Yes, we either need to build the cross harbor tunnel, or tie in a freight tunnel with the new hudson river tunnel for NJT.
Yest they were , but there are 10's of thousands more stores on LI now , there are thousands more restaurants (yes the food must get there too), there are millions more people living on LI now .
Again , there is much to be desired with LI freight operations , but trucks are important too .
The amount of business and population explosion that now exists on LI could not have been sustained had it not been for the LIE .
Why can't you take the train? If the LI rail network wasn't forced to stop progressing b/c of Robert Moses
Oh please.
DO you really believe that it a family on a trip to Niagra Falls would rather take the train than their own car? You and R-143 were arguing out the freight portion of the LIE, but what about the cars?
And it's not just City to LI or LI to city of LI to off the island completely scenarios either. My girlfriend lives in Center Moriches, but works in Islandia. Her commute is about 1/2 hour by LIE. There is no way that could be shortened by train. First of all there is no train. Second of all, her commute would be three times that amount by local roads.
Since there's no train, how can you tell?
I'm just saying, it could've happened if Robert Moses hadn't taken away from railroads. Hell, that would've been the express service for the main and monatuk lines.
Do you really think those people taking planes will take Amtrak instead?
The LIRR serves the Hamptons well, there is no need for Amtrak here other than railfan fantasy. There are connections at Penn. Amtrak wouldn't come to LI more than once or twice a day. The LIRR serves the Hamptons all day. Amtrak works well and is needed where there is no other rail service, or where there is no regular (and frequent) commuter service. And before you bring up Metro North, the only reason Amtrak makes a few stops in Metro North Serivce territory is because it is going through there anyway for it's longer distance trains.
He clearly stated that Amtrak is for places that don't have commuter service. What commuter service runs from Boston to Maine?
And plus, we could also have a much better ferry system. The way LI Sound is set up, it's just waiting for a first class ferry system. Have some car ferries, and the family drivin from Long Island to Niagra Falls could have a quick ferry ride from one of several possible locations to I-95 in Ct.
Long ISLAND. Surrounded by water and as a bonus, has rails line crossing the enitre length. All we needed for freight was a few ports and then a few intermodal yards. And we could've also had trains runnin north south, but Robert Moses(as well as several others) screwed us out of that too. We could also have more buses.
LI is a small ass place. We didn't need a big interstate and then more parkways to become this big.
Trains on the Narrows Bridge....
The 2nd system lines to get built....
Let a subway ROW be placed on the LIE..
A rail tunnel under the Narrows for subway service....
He managed to insulate himself from all manor of public inquiries...by creating levels of bullshit in his deptments,so he didn't have to answer to anybody.
Very much like the MTA today.
And those projects were WANTED and NEEDED,but Moses was going to the highest forms of government to get his projects pushed thru,while the T.A was too weak willed and limpwrist to put any real challange to his"rule"....
So they took what ever crumbs dropped from Moses table...
Which brings us to the issue of the 500 million dollars the T.A managed to secure during the 50's....
By international standards, that's pretty much - errrmm - standard. The only places where you'll find more than 3 lanes each way tend to be around junctions and on really horribly congested sections.
There's also that strange one called the A38(M) in Birmingham, England, which most of the time is a regular 3 lanes each way effort, but in rush hour becomes 4 lane in the peak direction and 2 in the counter-peak direction. Because of the drainage system along the centre lane, motorcycles aren't allowed on it whilst it's in operation. In case anyone is having difficulty envisaging a 7-lane single carriageway motorway, here's a pic:
Source: Pathetic Motorways, http://pathetic.endoftheinternet.org/
Oh and if you think it's a fearsome road already, you should see the junction at the outer end of it (officially called Gravelly Hill Interchange, but better known as Spaghetti Junction, for obvious reasons):
There were also plans for another north south highway. Rt 101 in Port Washington was supposed to be a highway down to Freeport, and north to New Rochelle via a bridge from Sands Point.
Another was extending I-495 to Orient Point and building a bridge to either Groton or Watch Hill. This was Robert Moses' plan.
A 4th plan was to convert William Floyd Parkway into an expressway(either to the LIE or Sunrise Highway) and extend it over LI Sound to New Haven onto I-91. This means William Floyd Parkway would be I-91.
But we don't have the bridge, but we still have the crossing. The Port Jeff-Bridgeport Ferry. It works fine.
The ferry's a nice ride, but it's scarcely a substitute for a cross-Sound bridge. Its vehicular capacity is a tiny fraction of what a bridge could carry and the cost of transporting vehicles is way above a bridge toll.
I'm not so sure there'd be much additional through traffic if there were a bridge. People travelling between New England and points south wouldn't gain much if anything because they'd have to go right through NYC.
Don't you mean "sprawl" . . . ? And is it necessarily a good thing?
Speaking of choices, let me add that NYC is blessed in the knowledge that you can live and function effectively without a car - if you choose. I live in California now and if I tried to use mass transit only, I would be a hermit. The places you can go for $2.00 in NYC, oh my, where I live, that would get me to the closest 7/11 and I'd still have to walk back. The oil companies could jack the gas prices to $5.00/gallon here and the majority would still pay it simply because we have no choices. BART, here in the bay area cost too much and doesn't go anywhere you want to or have to go. What they are now calling a subway system in LA, goes to nowhere. They don't get it out here in Cali. Appreciate what you have, NYC. Moses did a lot more good than bad. You'll understand the minute you leave NYC and live elsewhere.
You just dont get it do you? You would need the same amount of trucks as we have no to deliver from let's say Pilgrim to let's say Riverhead, or anywhere else on the Island. You need good roads, in addition to good rail service. What's the difference if the truck that is delivering CD's to Best Buy comes from out of state or from Mitchel Field, it still has to get to it's destination away from the tracks.
The local artery roads are a nightmare now WITH the LIE around, just imagine some of the main local roads WITHOUT the LIE.
1. Port Washington North industrial park-there is a path that is almost entirely clear from the LIRR PW station to this industrial park. LIRR could easily extend the branch to the area, while also extending passenger service.
2. Roslyn industrial park-trains can unload at a site near the roslyn station, and the trucks could carry the stuff the what...5 or 6 miles, if that, to the industrial park via west shore rd.
There are many places in Suffolk county that could definately do without the LIE as far as deliveries go.
Sure , clog up the already congested roads with more traffic. Have you ever been on Jericho Tpk or Sunrise Highway ? They are a nightmare WITH the LIRR , imagine the traffic nightmare without it. You really have no idea what traffic would be like on LI if it wasn't for the LIE .
"there are many industries along the LIRR"
Uhmm , there is much more to trucks than industry . How do you think your TV got to the PC Richards ? How do you think your TV dinner got to your Stop and Shop ? How so you think your shirt got to The Gap ? Railroads are great for many things , but door to door merchandising isn't one of them . Freight RR's are great for industry , yes , that is true . I agree , there is much that could be done with the LIRR (NYA)'s freigh operations , however merchandising isn't one of them . At least 50% of LIE's truck traffic could not use the Railroad , and all those trucks would be pushed on local roads making a traffic and safety nightmare .
And this is coming from a train lover . You have to be realistic .
"There are many places in Suffolk that could definitely do without the LIE as far as deliveries go"
Again no , The rails can't pull up to every retail store in Suffolk . Sorry . RR's are great for industry and bulk goods , but do nothing for retail .
The rail spur right off the main line that goes right next to PC Richards(maybe not, but it could've).
I know that not everything can go by rail for the entire trip, but with proper planning, the majority of it could've. And still, almost all freight can easily make the majority of the trip via rail, to be transfered to truck only towards the end of the trip.
Roosevelt Field Mall could easily be getting rail deliveries, as well as the Source Mall.
I'm saying if the LI rail network was improved, and if there was an intermodal yard, then we wouldn't have needed the LIE. Trucks would just use the local roads from the intermodal yard. And if the LI rail network was improved, the traffic on those local roads wouldn't be so seveare cuz rail would've been more appealing to those who now drive.
Well, great for that one , but 99% of the electronic stores on LI are no where near the LIRR .
Roosevelt field is one mall, the Source is one other , there are scores of malls on LI that are no where near a rail spur .
Again , we are in a different era . Our lifestyles are different than those in the 1920's and earlier . Rail is very important , but trucks are too . Everything is fast paced now . A truck leaving with mrchandise as we speak full of merchandise somewhere across the country will be here days earlier than the same merchandise being transferred from a truck to a railcar right now too , in the same location across the country bound for another switching yard in another state , bound for another switching yard
in a different state again , bound for the interchange at Fresh Pond (another switching yard) , bound for anintermodal yard somewhere on the Island bound for another truck that will finally take it to the LI store . It would take much longer that way . Time is money .
Besides , how many intermodal yards do you expect there would be on Long Island ? There better be at least 40-50 of them all over Brooklyn , Queens, Nassau, and Suffolk if you don't want those trucks to use an expressway to get from their intermodal yard to the stores .
See how unbarable your local roads will be through your quiet neighborhoods .
I understand retail is better served by truck, but the point is, it could still be shipped for the most part by rail. I understand speed is everything, but the better things usually are either more expensive, take longer, or sometimes both(better b/c less traffic and less pollution).
And there only needs to be a few intermodal facilities.
1. Pilgrim
2. Mitchell Field area
3. MAYBE somewhere in The Bronx, like near Hunts Point.
I doubt you'll find any shopping malls anywhere in the country that get deliveries by rail, even in the most freight-rail-intensive areas like metro Chicago or Houston.
You betcha. They can't get Metrolink extensions and "Gold Lines" built fast enough.
Wow, with all those long freights going out to Roosevelt Field via the Hempstead Line/Central Branch can you just imagine what that would do to the Hempstead Line capacity. It will drive all the commuters back onto the LIE. Not to mention the l-o-n-g waits at the railroad crossings.
By the way, by you promoting replacing trucks with trains, I would stay away from any Teamsters!!!
They're trying to do everything with trucks, though, on the other hand. Is that the right way to go?
Engineers are not people?
And as far as the non-engineers go, that's the beauty of a train . . .
Yeah, and even with the LIE and no lights, it takes hours to travese the island.
With a better rail network on LI, I bet we'd have Amtrak service too!
We don't need Amtrak service, Amtrak is for areas without good commuter operations, and for long distance service. Any benefit Amrak would have on LI, is already handled well by the LIRR, and a great connection at Penn Station.
As a railfan, sure I would love to see Amtrak trains scooting by, but get real.
For commuting, there always has been the LIRR, which got screwed over big time by the LIE.
Uhm, all of the abandoned lines on LI were abandoned WAY before the LIE was even a thought. No line has been abandoned since the LIE came into operation. In fact, many of them are being run with more service than at the time the LIE was built.
We also used to have a good base for an intra-island service, but more highways just screwed that up
LIRR service was never intraisland based. In fact it's the design of the LIRR (from the 1800's) that it is an east-west operation. The highways didn't screw that up, it's the original design of the LIRR that was built that way.
I meant from north shore to south shore
If so then why do we have the Downeaster?
"Uhm, all of the abandoned lines on LI were abandoned WAY before the LIE was even a thought. No line has been abandoned since the LIE came into operation. In fact, many of them are being run with more service than at the time the LIE was built. "
Well, you got me there. Still, the construction of all these damn parkways and highways and what not has prevented the uprising of a successful intra-island rail network, which is needed.
Because MaineTrak isn't a good commuter operation. :-)
Trains have numerous advantages over buses, but the opposite is true too.
Look at the route map available at http://escapemaker.com/adirondacktrailways/
Significant cities in New York such as Binghamtom, Ithaca Cooperstown, and Oneonta, and many small intermediate towns, would not have any public transportation out of town if they had to rely on train service.
The demand is there for bus service several times a day, but not for train service.
I know it's like a broken record, but you STILL need good roads (or at least one).
Why is it that hadn't it been for the LIE, all items that are not even delivered by rail anywhere in the country (not even in the prime freight hotbeds) would have miraculously been delivered by rail on Long Island had it not been for the LIE?
I'd wonder if the PABT would have been built at 42 Street?
The majority of what is delivered now could've easily been delivered by rail using these three lines, plus any of the other LIRR lines(and the CRRLI).
No it could not have . Again , you need door to door delivery . Railroads are great for bulk deliveries (such as commodities) and industry . They suck for retail .
Arghh!! But these items are not shipped anywhere in the country by rail, why would it just be done miraculously on LI? You are also blaming the freight practices around the country on one road on LI.
Y o u ' r e m i s s i n g t h e p o i n t , s o n n y . . .
If the railroads were permitted to play a greater role, then no such thing as the eighteen-wheeler would have had to come into existence. The present-day peril of having to weave in and out of such behemoths with our cars would not exist. We'd be a happier and more relaxed bunch of Subtalkers, who would not be showing our closet NIMBYish traits ;->
And yes, this is a problem unique to LI. Caused by the LIE. (I'm talking about urban sprawl, BTW . . .)
You said in your other post:
If the railroads were permitted to play a greater role, then no such thing as the eighteen-wheeler would have had to come into existence. The present-day peril of having to weave in and out of such behemoths with our cars would not exist.
With that you brought up the whole country. Most of the items delivered by truck on LI are delivered by truck across the country. People are suggesting that items that are not delivered anywhere else in the country by rail should be on LI, and LI alone. Again, there is more that can be done with LI's freight RRing, however
freight RRing is great for low cost bulk goods, not for retailing goods, the bulk of what the LIE carries. There are no bulk goods on LI. There is no agriculture left (to speak of), coal, etc on LI.
And yes, this is a problem unique to LI. Caused by the LIE. (I'm talking about urban sprawl, BTW . . .)
Sprawl is not unique to LI, Much of the country has sprawl. California, Florida, Las Vegas, everywhere there is sprawl. DOn't think LI is unique with that.
And as for the dependence on cars, that's also not unique to LI.
The goods distribution patterns would have been different also. Maybe the trend towards mega stores would have still played out...but in this case, yeah, they would have been situated near (or morphed into) the "freight houses". Even along the elevated Babylon branch the earlier steet-level trackage could have been left in service for freight service. At least, the many freight sidings would have remained. Most of them were seperated from street traffic anyway. You can see them today, and it shows how well the railroad constructed them.
Even today I would think there should be some thought given to this idea again. Especially along the Mainline.
Then how come I see more and more trucks on the roads . . . ?
You know why? Because commodities have to get into LI and waste has to come out! Commodities (food, clothing) are shipped in by multiple trucks when they coulda come in by train! Same goes for garbage, since there aren't any more local landfills; all going out by truck because foolish NIMBYs whine about them "trash trains". That's a lot of moolah wasted on them trucks, you know . . .
Both LI and NY have become more retail and service oriented
And this is a good thing? On the world scene, you aren't worth a darn unless you're producing something.
Because most retail does not move well by freight.
Same goes for garbage, since there aren't any more local landfills; all going out by truck because foolish NIMBYs whine about them "trash trains".
Trash is the New York and Atlantic's (former LIRR freight division) bigest commditiy that they move.
And this is a good thing? On the world scene, you aren't worth a darn unless you're producing something.
True, but you can't blame that on LI either. NY has shifted, the entire country has shifted. A good thing, no, but you can't blame the LIE for that. (Remeber the LIE is the background of this debate). Long Island's shift is no different than Ny itself, and the rest of the country.
You must not know how to drive well.
#3 West End Jeff
Wow, how did LI do without the LIE before it was built? (Answer: LIRR, PRR, NYNH&H, NYC.) And the NY&A gets stuff past the LIE nowadays when nothing moves on it.
Wow, how did the entire country do without the interstate highway system, should I point you to the fallen flags website?
You are blaming the entire country's transportation shortfalls on one road on LI.
Did quite well, didn't it.
should I point you to the fallen flags website?
For what purpose . . . ?
You are blaming the entire country's transportation shortfalls on one road on LI
I am? Don't misquote me, please.
Yes, for that time...but in 2004, we should not be living with the amount of technolgy and lifestyles that people were living 250 years ago...unless we live in Afganastan.
For what purpose . . . ?
LI's dependence on roads, and less of use of RR's is a national occurance, not just LI's.
"If railroads built this country, why can't they systain it?"
It was a different era . There were no personal vehicles in the 1800s . You had to rely on a train or stagecoach . There were no supermarkets , you walked to your town general store . There was no BJ's , you went to your town general store . There was no Applebee's , you walked to your town saloon or restaurant . There was no Best Buy , you didn't even buy your fancy little electronic items at the local general store because there was no such items - you played your violin at home for music , and went to bed when it got dark .
How do you think all the items get to your stores , restaurants , bars , etc ? The train can't bring them everywhere if they wanted to . Trucks are a necessity for our current lifestyles .
Yes , railroads built this country , but it was a much simpler country that the rails were laid through .
What are horses and bicycles? Not to mention the shoe-leather express.
There were indeed gasoline-powered automobiles in the USA as far back as 1888. Therefore, the statement is technically not true.
And I thought we were a part of the whole country. Maybe they should have made all of Long Island like the community near Lancaster, PA. Geee, and I'm not even Amish.
There were indeed gasoline-powered automobiles in the USA as far back as 1888. Therefore, the statement is technically not true.
Oh please, and what millionaire owned one?
Railroads did not build this country until the 1800's. Last I checked, we became an independent country in 1776.
Back in those days, the mode of choice was water transportation. Thats why cities sprung up along the coast and along major rivers. New York had its harbor. So did Boston. Albany and Philly were just upriver from the oceans. Soon we started building canals. The Erie Canal opened up interior NYS. The Chesapeake and Ohio canal was going to be the main route to the west from DC area.
But that all changed with the coming of railroads, which were faster and more flexible then water transport. You could build a railroad line straight from Richmond to DC instead of having to go down the potomac into chesapeake bay and then all the way back up the James River from Norfolk. You wouldn't have to go from DC to Cincy via Norfolk, Miami, and New Orleans. In fact, wherever you could build a rail line, you could send goods. But there was still a need for water transport...you could still put an awful lot more on a ship then in a rail car. So if you had to ship a HUGE quantity of something between two points with water access, then the ship made sense. A smaller or more time sensitive thing was sent by rail.
Then in the 1900's, another "modal shift" occurred, this time from rail to roads. Roads already existed, and needed to be improved. You can build a road for a lot less money then you can build a railroad. Vehicles could literally go anywhere. In some cases, it still makes sense to ship stuff by rail....like big, bulk quantities, where time isn't as much of a concern. Roads are flexible...the truckload of stuff can leave its origin as soon as it is loaded, and go straight to its destination without any detours, and then it can unload. Much faster then sending a load to an intermodal facility to be placed in a train, or sending a train car from a spur into a yard where it waits to be placed on a train, then the train is sent to its destination where the cargo once again experiences delay while the train is broken up and the car is either sent up a spur to its destination or offloaded into a truck. In today's "just in time" delivery economy, the rail won't cut it for many kinds of deliveries. But for big, bulk quantities, where time isn't an issue, rail still has a purpose. Or if you have many, many small shipments that all just happen to travel over the same long route.
Long Island isn't really all that long, compared to the rest of the country. And another thing of interest...the average trip length on the LIE is about 4 or 5 exits. A lot of it local traffic, that wouldn't be able to use rail anyway.
My point...modal shifts occur, and the shift occurred from rail to truck/auto, for all but large bulk quantities a long time ago.
I wonder what the next modal shift will be and when it will be? My guess...segway.
As for passanger travel, trains make sense where you have A LOT Of people that are traveling the same route. Like in Manhattan. Or Long Island going into Manhattan. But in spread out areas, where people choose to live because of their own personal reasons and have every right to live where they want to live, mass transit doesn't make as much sense. True, there are side effects of personal transportation in vehicles, but i'd rather deal with the traffic jams on Long Island then be forced to live in Brooklyn or Manhattan....just too crowded for me, and a lot of the housing isn't to my liking. I've lived in an apartment building built in the 1920's....and i'll take new construction anyday over the former.
Yes, the seas laid the groundwork, but the country expanded the greatest during the RR boom. And I'm glad you brought up water transportation. Being an island, we are surrounded by water. What does that mean? Well, according to the course of history, we are supposed to be able to thrive without a highway or even a railroad b/c we are surrounded by water. That's how every past civilization was started and supported, waterways. After water, was rail. Well, there we go. Then roads. Well, there we have it. The entire system needed for a successful civilization with no LIE. Goods and materials are shipped via water or rail, and then transfered to trucks which use local roads to complete the trip. No LIE needed.
"the average trip length on the LIE is about 4 or 5 exits. A lot of it local traffic, that wouldn't be able to use rail anyway. "
How so?
"But in spread out areas, where people choose to live because of their own personal reasons and have every right to live where they want to live, mass transit doesn't make as much sense."
You and I both know, Long Island is not a rural place. And we used to have an intra-island rail network in the most rural of areas, but the highways ended that quickly. This is why I keep saying we need a system of ferries, buses, and trains. It covers almost all bases.
We did? Let's see, all the LIRR lines are geared to east-west traffic, let's see....that's how they were designed and built a centry-plus ago.
Most of the lines that were abandoned were abandoned in the 30's and earlier - long before the LIE was even a thought.
Of the LIRR lines abandoned more recently....let's see, the Rockaway Branch, well that was also abandoned before the LIE, but the subway still operates the bulk of it, and the remaining portion of the ROck Branch was already have dead for decades before.
The fact is that since the LIE was built, most lines have MORE passenger service, not less. The Babylon, Port Jefferson, and ROnkonkoma Branches being the most noticable, but all share in the prosperity since. DO I have to break out my 1972 LIRR schedules to show you that Montauk Branch was basically being run almost like the Greenport to Ronkonkoma section at the time, and the Greenport line even has an extra round trip now compared to then.
Construction of the LIE resulted in more and more people moving to Suffolk County, which in turn stimulated demand for more LIRR service.
1. Oyster Bay to Far Rockaway
2. Mitchell Field to Creedmore
3. Montauk to Greenport(and some running Sag Harbor to Greenport)
Yeah, they were all abandonned long before expressways and parkways reached those areas, but those parkways and expressways are what prevented their rebirth.
Well, sort of, but I don't quite agree. If we agree that water, rail, and road each have a certain niche of the transportation market, then look at how each system was developed over the years. With water, first the boats used sails and sailed the seas, oceans, harbors, etc. Then came the steamboat which allowed boats to go up and down rivers much more easily then in the past (before that, there were barges that were literally pushed upstream by humans using poles). Then somewhere in there people had this grand idea to build their own rivers, called canals. And then they decided to build canals with locks, so that boats could be raised and lowered.
With railroads, RR technology expanded greatly from the days of steam trains and the original 1836 LIRR, to the present day HSR like Acela Express and TGV, etc. I'm sure I don't need to explain the history on this board!
With roads, we started out with dirt paths (and in some cases put an inch of pavement over it and thats all...like in Boston!), then we started paving roads, then came superhighways. Long Island started out with dirt roads, like Montauk Highway, then more modern paved roads, like the Vanderbilt Motor Parkway,a nd lastly, the LIE.
In otherwords, the LIE was just an evolvement of the road transportation on Long Island, which was inevitibly goign to happen.
" "the average trip length on the LIE is about 4 or 5 exits. A lot of it local traffic, that wouldn't be able to use rail anyway. "
How so? "
I'm a roadgeek too...its a traffic thing, and I believe it is backed up by NYSDOT studies on origins and destinations. The average trip length might be different for cars and trucks, in fact in all liklihood it is. Most trucks, I imagine, drive from Queens out to a certain point on the island and then back. Most cars though, are more local in nature....and therefore, wouldn't as easily be served by rail transit.
"You and I both know, Long Island is not a rural place. And we used to have an intra-island rail network in the most rural of areas, but the highways ended that quickly. This is why I keep saying we need a system of ferries, buses, and trains. It covers almost all bases."
Yes, I do know Long Island isn't rural, but it isn't built up enough to support mass transit for movement of people or goods completely without the help of decent roads.
(response)
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(my comments)
I believe in balanced transportation systems, meaning roads, transit, rail, water, and even air transportation, with as many intermodal connectors as needed (such as airports with train stations and road access, intermodal freight yards, etc). I do not believe in stifling one mode to support another in MOST circumstances.....which would mean I would not support not having the LIE just to support rail transportation of freight and people on Long Island. However in certain special cases, liek midtown manhattan, it becomes a HUGE quality of life issue if we don't do whatever we can to force people onto subways and out of private autos (during the day....in the middle of the night, i see nothing wrong with driving into Manhattan).
That being said, I think Long Island has a transportation deficit. and I think adding rail freight options to the transportation network (improving LIRR, rail tunnel to NJ, intermodal yards) is probably a good idea as the roads are in abundance, and the rails are lacking. But there will always be a use for roads, for local trips. Short trips (~ 5 miles or so) can be made on local roads. Long trips (off of Long Island) can probably be done on rail. But the intermediate legnth trips that are too short for rail, too long for local roads would be next to impossible with the LIE. Try driving 25A from Great Neck out to Smithtown sometime and you'll see what I mean...no matter how congested the LIE is, its still going to be faster then on 25A!
However, just want you to know. Had the Flushing and North Shore gone for their original option, the fastest route would probably be by rail. The plan was to go from Great Neck along what is now 25A to Syosset to meet with what is now(was it then too?) the Port Jefferson branch.
Before I even knew this, I drew up a plan for this exact same thing. It would be difficult, but it could definately be done, especially with the 25A Roslyn Viaduct reconstruction comming up.
That's upside-down reasoning. Nobody's forced onto subways in Manhattan -- Manhattan simply was never endowed with ample road or parking capacity for more than a small fraction of the number of people who have reason to enter the borough.
No . . . only thirteen former British colonies became states in that year. That did not expand to 48 states within hours of Georgius Rex capitulating, you know.
And powered rail transportation went hand-in-hand with greatly expanding the Industrial Revolution all over the country, not to mention the globe.
today's "just in time" delivery economy
Have you noted that this is one of the personifications of the so-called "false economy"?
True, there are side effects of personal transportation in vehicles, but i'd rather deal with the traffic jams on Long Island then be forced to live in Brooklyn or Manhattan
That makes no sense at all, especially when the LIRR serves a huge chunk of the island.
Great, except it doesn't go to where I want to go most of the time.
I have an LIRR station two blocks from my house, which is much much more then most Long Islanders can say. But if I want to go grocery shopping (the store I shop at is across the LIRR/Sunrise from Sunrise Mall), the train won't take me there. If I want to go visit friends in other parts of Massapequa, the train won't take me there....unless they just so happen to live within a quarter mile of the other station in Massapequa. But none of them do. If I want to go shopping at Roosevelt field, I'd have to take the train all the way into Jamaica and back out onto the island via bus to get there without my car. It takes too long. If I want to go to the Hamptons...the train will get me there, but once I'm in the Hamptons, my travels are restricted to the hamlets and the local bus routes....theres an awful lotta places I can't get to without having to rent a car once I get there. So its easier just to bring my own car, as opposed to letting it sit in in my driveway or in a parking lot while I pay to drive someone else's car.
If I want to go to NYC....well, OK, great, thats one place the LIRR will get me to reliably. But when I go into the city (evening, come home at 2 or 3 AM), the service isn't as frequent. Parking is abundant in midtown after 7PM, so I just drive. Because when i'm done i don't have to schlep all the way to Penn Station, wait an hour for a train, ride the train for an hour, and then walk home from the station at 4AM....instead, I just drive from near my friend's apartment to my own driveway in 45 minutes.
Occasionally I go to the city during the day. Then i'll use the train. My dad commutes on the LIRR to Wall Street. Its the best way for him to get to lower Manhattan from our house. But the only other time he's ever used the LIRR for inter-island travel was when he was in college at Stony Brook...and even then, his father had to drive him to Hicksville from Massapequa, using an automobile and roads.
So there, the LIRR is great if I happen to be going to the city during the day. But for most travel within Long Island, the LIRR doesn't go to where the people want to go.
Then how come the LIRR is so busy and runs 12-car EMU trains?
Are you asking the LIRR to substitute for your automobile for local travel on LI? And do you believe that "most people" are making such journeys? Then get yourself and "most people" to write the LIRR; they may just build a number of cross-island lines if the demand is high enough. But the MTA will do nothing if nobody says anything.
Parking is abundant in midtown after 7PM
Street parking?
Because most of those people aren't traveling within Long Island...they are going to Manhattan, Queens, or Brooklyn, where they can get to their final destination via subway or bus easily.
Are you asking the LIRR to substitute for your automobile for local travel on LI?
I'm not, but others seem to be when they say Long Island would have been just fine without the LIE. The LIE and other roads serve a significant portion of local traffic. Try driving from, say, Smithtown to Massapequa on local roads...it takes forever compared to the LIE, Southern State, or other big roads.
And do you believe that "most people" are making such journeys
Local journeys within Long Island? I sure do....
Then get yourself and "most people" to write the LIRR; they may just build a number of cross-island lines if the demand is high enough. But the MTA will do nothing if nobody says anything.
I have advocated for more mass transit within Long Island, to make the LIRR more useful to Long Islanders working on Long Island. I've written letters to govt. officials actually. But a lot needs to be done and I don't see much action being taken. As I see it, you'd need: 1) more "reverse commute" services, especially on lines like Ronkonkoma with limited reverse commute service. Obviously for Ronkonkoma, that means a second track.... 2) more feeder services to office parks from stations. Example, 110 corridor, with a new station at 110. Or Syossett/Woodbury from Syosett station. or Great Neck area from Great Neck Station. 3) something to connect the middle of the island to the south shore, somewhere (and the Central branch could be that connection, if it had more service, but i'd prefer something that ran through Mineola, Garden City, Hempstead). Living in Massapequa means its tough to commute by train to jobs anywhere other then the south shore by LIRR. If I lived two blocks from Farmingdale station instead of M.P., I could commute to a job in Mineola by train much easier then I can now.
But here's the problem: transportation planning these days is done too late. We only provide bus service if there is a demand for it. Little demand, little service. But maybe if they put in a lot of service where there was little demand, then sure, it would be a waste of money at first, but soon enough, if people catch on that they can catch the bus every 10 minutes, then more people will begin using it. Crappy service = no demand = no justification to improve crappy service = even crappier service.
That's true, only partially though. On the LIRR, yes, most are going to Manhattan. However, on the roadways, only about 250,000 out of 1 million are going to NYC(meaning all 5 boroughs, which means even less going to Manhattan).
"or Great Neck area from Great Neck Station. "
Great Neck station already has I think 5 or 6 bus lines feeding into it, what more is needed?
That's true, only partially though. On the LIRR, yes, most are going to Manhattan. However, on the roadways, only about 250,000 out of 1 million are going to NYC(meaning all 5 boroughs, which means even less going to Manhattan).
Ah, sorry, I was only referring to LIRR pax when I said most of them were going to the city. Most road users are staying on Long Island.
Well, they could increase the number of Montauk trains that stop at Mineola and Hicksville, that'd work wonders for sure. However, for exactly what you stated, there is one perfect thing. The Central Railroad of Long Island. Only 2 miles south of Mineola(some trains could be routed via Mineola as well by using the former ROW between Mineola and CLP that is still clear), goes right through Garden City, and just north of Hempstead. Also, it'd provide a new service area, levittown and East Meadow. Do what was done in the past, they run down the central to Babylon, then the Montauk out to the end.
As for you working in Mineola, you're commute is VERY easy. Adirondack Trailways. Take it from Massapequa to Mineola, only other stops are Freeport and Hempstead.
"But here's the problem: transportation planning these days is done too late. We only provide bus service if there is a demand for it. Little demand, little service. But maybe if they put in a lot of service where there was little demand, then sure, it would be a waste of money at first, but soon enough, if people catch on that they can catch the bus every 10 minutes, then more people will begin using it. Crappy service = no demand = no justification to improve crappy service = even crappier service."
Exactly why I am opening my own transit agency here on LI in the future. www.freewebs.com/islandtransitLI
The only portion that will take quite some time to get running are certain spots of the intra-island rail services.
The system I've created is
1. fast-more of a local coach bus service. Instead of stopping every few blocks, the buses will stop at more central locations in each town(and a few more stops which vary for each area)
2. comfortable-well.....you can be the judge of that yourself. In general, a coach bus is more comfortable though.
3. more direct-the routing of the express bus system(I've also got plans for a LIB-type system) does not go off into loops through neighborhoods and what not. Only a few routes have these areas that go off on tangents, and those routes have both local and express service, with only the locals serving these tangents.
4. more extensive-routes travel long distances, decreasing the amount of transfers that may be needed to reach ones destination. Routes such as Huntington to JFK Airport, and Montauk to Glen Cove.
Hopefully, 5 and 6 will be cheap and frequent, but obviously, we must go with is economical.
I hate how all my classmates say, oh, I can't go to the mall cuz my mom can't drive me, or, oh, I'd love to come visit you, but my mom can't drive me. BY A F'IN METROCARD!
As for street parking after 7PM in Manhattan? Yes, parking is abundant right around that time. I even take advantage of that when I go to Yankee games. You arrive in Manhattan around 6 something, drop a quarter in a meter (restriction runs out at 7, and when the meter expires you are in a legal parking spot while sitting at Yankee stadium, or wherever you are going.
On my LIRR line, I couldn't even stay in the city after 12:30 if I was relying on the LIRR, the last train leaves Penn at around 12:30, and there is no other train until 4:30. With a car I can leave Manhattan at my choosing, and be home within an hour. Not so with the LIRR, first I would have to revolve my schedule around the train, and many time the train is non-existent.
AT hours when Manhattan is harder to park in, I many times drive to Brooklyn, park, and then take a short subway ride into Manhattan.
Ha! So not true. Just take a look at my website, compare the routings to maps and what not, and see just how many homes would be lost. Hardly any. www.freewebs.com/islandtransitli . I've spent years studying possible routings to minimize the impact on people. I think I've finally done it. The 2 lines that still seem to escape me are from Oyster Bay to Syosset, and Great Neck to Syosset(like the Flushing and North Shore RR was to do).
I hope you know that the state still owns the land for an extension of the SOB to Route 25A. That might help.
Back to my original plan though, the line from OB to east of Syosset would be part of the line to Mac Arthur Airport(via a second new ROW, which I don't think has any effect on existing developments), meaning trains would run Oyster Bay(well, I plan to start the line in Glen Cove), Huntington, Kings Park, new stop Hauppague, new stop Islandia, Ronkonkoma, new stop at Mac Arthur Airport terminal.
Thanks for that lil bit of info!
I often drive to Jamaica Estates from Masspequa and take the F train in from 179th...works any day except mon/tues when alternate side is in effect there. My logic is simple....if i'm going to take the LIRR in and then buy a fun-pass when I get to Penn, why shouldn't I just use the fun pass to get to Manhattan in the first place and save some bucks? Gas to Jamaica from Massapequa is less then the LIRR fare, and especially less if I have someone with me. Time-wise, its more, but being a student short on $$$, its a nice cash saver. Plus I like the subway better then the LIRR, its more interesting. I have actually been able to drive home from Jamaica in 45 minutes during rush hour (pays to be a roadgeek too sometimes!).
Aren't you in Bellport? Getting there from Manhattan in an hour is really pushing it, even during the middle of the night.
I doubt it. There are north/south arteries with enough space to build rail lines on in Nassau and Suffolk. Newbidge Road, Hicksille Road, Rt. 110, Deer Park Avenue, Sagitos Parkway, Lakeland Avenue, Nicolls Road, Yaphank Avenue. To name a few.
If such a momentous project as building new rail lines were started they would most probably be lrt routes. Which can be run along arterial streets. To me, the best place on all of Long Island to build a line like that is Rt. 110. It would be a perfect test for the condcept, over say ten years time. There is room for development all along the route. And it already has numerous employment centers on every section.
One other stop to consider is re-opening the South Farmingdale stop and relocating it to where 110 crosses the central.
And either way, I still think they should run trains from Patchogue via the central and main with stops on the central and at Hicksville and Mineola. Finally be some sorta intra-island service.
And either way, I still think they should run trains from Patchogue via the central and main with stops on the central and at Hicksville and Mineola. Finally be some sorta intra-island service.
If that happened, I would probably take my car more often. Currently, the majority of the Patchogue trains make all stops to Babylon, and then run express on the Babylon Branch. If I had to be stuck on a train from Patchogue that made every stop on the mainline, I'd probably hang myself. It's bad enough when the connection on the Babylon Branch goes local instead of express between Babylon and Jamaica, and at least that on that line the stations are closely spaced so it's over quicker.
The Babylon Branch is the premiere LIRR line.
And as for the Patchogue local, I'm sayin they should make SOME of the mainline stops, not all. Here:
Patchogue-all stops to Babylon-Breslau-South Farmingdale-Hicksville-Mineola-Jamaica-Sunnyside(when it opens)-NYP. Maybe have some expresses that run:
Patchogue-Sayville-Bay Shore-Babylon-Hicksville-Mineola-Jamaica-Sunnyside-NYP. That's only 9 stops.
No.
-Train 2702 Penn to Montauk (transfer at Jamaica) stop Hicksville 1:25AM
-Train 2774 Penn to Patchogue (transfer jamaica) stop Mineola 4:23PM
-Train 2778 Penn to Patchogue (transfer jamaica) stop Mineola and Hicksville 5:18PM and 5:27PM respectively.
-Train 2703 Montauk to Penn (transfer Jamaica - express Patchogue to Babylon stop Hicksville and Mineola 7:57AM and 8:04AM respectively.
Then there are a random diesels that do run down the mainline from Babylon (although most run the babylon Branch) that do not stop at Hicksville or Mineola.
Adam
Ok, but those first two don't do any good cuz it's the dead of the night.
Just before rush hour and dinner time is the dead of night?
But still, there is only one train westbound that is usefull for commuters, and 2 eastbound that are usefull. They really should increase the service.
Weekdays westbound:
Montauk to Hunterspoint Av, stops Hicksville 7:55AM, stops Mineola 8:02AM(only train)
Weekdays eastbound:
Jamaica to Montauk, stops Hicksville 1:31AM(dead of night)
Jamaica to Patchogue, stops Mineola 3:15PM(too early for most commuters)
Hunterspoint Av to Patchogue, stops Mineola 5:20PM, stops Hicksville 5:29PM(only train usefull for commtuers)
Ok, so now there is only one usefull westbound, and only one usefull eastbound. Nothing on the weekends either, which is a pain in the ass. They couldn't atleast run a damn shuttle between Hicksville or even Bethpage and Babylon!?
Don't buy the rope just yet. Central Branch trains generally stop only at Hicksville and Mineola ince they reach the main line. I don't see why that would change if more Montauk trains used the Central Branch.
This is a very good thing. Forget about w/e they're being used for now. It gives Long Island some needed "breathing room" regards to transportation. At some point in the future that Central Branch (the extant section) will be put to use. The connectivity options will be exercised.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=746079
Patchogue-Sayville-Bay Shore-Babylon-Hicksville-Mineola-Jamaica-NYP
I'll agree with the Sag and Nichols.
I am not familiar enough with Newbridge road to comment, but thought I remember that being quite tight too.
I don't think that's a good pattern to follow with a rail line. A nice long tangent is more fitting. With a variety of close by residential, industrial and office clusters all along the route. In other words, I'm talking about taking a pre-existing corridor and densifying it. For Long Island this is radical indeed. But the target routes are already dealing with plainly urban levels of traffic flow. Even with the lower adjacent developmental densities. So those who would claim it'd make it "city-like" are only fooling themselves. It's city-like now...so we should build on that.
OW! No way man. Seriously, that's what kills public transportation. Those loops add way too much time to the trip.
"In other words, I'm talking about taking a pre-existing corridor and densifying it. "
How about building a heavy rail(LIRR type) on a pre-existing corridor in which the area around has already densifyed to the point where the only other direction is up?
" So those who would claim it'd make it "city-like" are only fooling themselves. It's city-like now...so we should build on that."
BINGO. That's exactly the point. How's rail(which means more access) going to bring in more "city-like" aspects to an area that is already as "city-like" as it can get?
We're gonna have to bite the bullet and start some serious thinking on zoning laws. Those roads we've been discussing are going to have to see some type of higher density housing being considered. There's no other way to proceed unless we want to see the unplanned mess of a situation (as it is now) be continued, with the resultant lowering of the quality of life.
You know, I'm fifty years old. But I still think "Dang these old fogies" when people object to doing stuff like this. What the forking hell do these knuckleheads expect the young folks to do when they start to enter into the mainstream of life? How many 20 year olds can hope to afford a house on Long Island? (Shoot. How many 40 year olds can??) Us old bastards are eating the seed corn. And we're gonna be regretting that immensely, if nothing changes.
Not quite so. 2 buses. Actually, I think your bus may go to RFM...but I'm not sure. And if you want a quick ride, Adirondack Trailways to HTC, and LIB to RFM.
But driving, I can be there in 20 mins...even when SOuthern State is jammed (hint: Bellmore Ave is a godsend, and, like most Nassau County maintained roadways, has great signal timing/coordination, almost as good as NYC's, unlike NYSDOT maintained roads).
I think part of the problem is that people are reluctant to ride busses because they don't know where they go, and a little bus stop sign doesn't attract nearly as much attention as a rail line. There's some stigma with busses thats just tough to overcome....
Sadly, it is true. Most adults though applude me for the fact that I am so independant and am able to take the bus, so with them, it may be a turn for the better. Actually, I know one mother who lives in ROSLYN, one of the richest towns in Nassau County(and yes, they're rich), and she takes the bus every now and then to the mall and what not.
As for your trip....I'm still trying to remember if my system would cover you. I know I'm planning to increase service with my buses on the Adirondack Trailways route, so that may work. According to Greyhound, the trip takes 25-35 minutes(extra 10 cuz rush hour traffic probably, as the bus is in rush hour), then add say....10 min for the bus to RFM, and there you go. I understand it's a bit longer, but unless we reach NYC gridlock(which we occasionally do), public transit will always be a bit slower than driving. Hopefully, my more direct routing will speed things up.
You make such a big deal about that.....but you know, I would too...it is a big deal when the rich folk on LI take a bus on a regular basis. This definitely highlights the problem. I'd think that feeder busses into the LIRR stations would be HUGE, given the lack of parking at stations, but even that doesn't seem to happen much.
If you get stuck in traffic while driving, riding the bus isn't going to help, since you're just going to get stuck in that same traffic (except that the bus probably can't divert to a parallel road with less congestion). A train can bypass it all.
This is one reason I think that many of NYC's bus lanes should be beefed up and enforced.
A vigorously enforced and well-publicized towing campaign might help.
People DO NOT have the right to live wherever they want to live. If that were the case, then everyone who wanted to would be able to live on Park Avenue (and I don't mean above 96th Street). Instead, only people who can afford it live there.
Living in spread-out fashion is an environmental nightmare and isn't cost-effective. People should be forced to pay for the costs of the lifestyle they choose to lead.
That's fine...except that you are being subsidized by everyone else. If you had to pay the same proportion of cost of your use of land and resources as the city dwellers do, then I have no problem with that. But you don't.
I see, so you're saying that an acre of farmland in North Dakota should cost the same as an acre in Times Square?
The unfairness in paying for the infrastructure can easily be addressed with something called impact fees that developers have to pay. THey have them in North Carolina, I know that much, I don't know about New York. But basically its based on things like how much water, how much sewer, how many vehicle trips are generated, etc.
I'll just say two things:
1) population keeps increasing. THe people need to live somewhere.
2) the flip-side to suburban sprawl, where people obviously seem to be able to afford to build huge luxury houses, is gentrification of inner city neighborhoods. Last I checked, the environmentalists loved it, but the less-well-off people pushed out of their neighborhood by higher rends didn't. Looks like the special interests are competing.....
In the 20's and 30's he completely revamped the civil service laws to elliminate patronage.
Getting rid of the last vestiges of Boss Tweed was a good thing, and it happened before Moses was consumed with power.
I don't think anyone could argue that Riverside Park or Jones Beach are bad things either -but that leaves a lot. His involvement in the NYC housing authority was unpardonable.
He wrote the laws that made state authorites into giant government/corperate entities with no accountability, and that adversely affects us to this day.
Why am I not surprised? The problem with "King Moses" is that his short-sighted, bigoted, decisions have had long term consequences on everybody who lives in New York, and its suburbs.
Thank goodness the Lower Manhattan Expressway was never built.
Where would they have built this from? Maybe that old spur to, what is it, Point Lookout I think, from Long Beach? That would've been the greatest train ride ever. That bastard.
So you'd rather that Jones Beach not have been developed at all?
And Robert From Queens said that the spur was supposed to be part of Jones Beach, as in to provide rail service to beach goers, which you know would've been used today.
Did Moses really think he could keep out poor people from living in Staten Island.
Another bridge he constructed is also without a bicycle path.
If they could make it go faster, it would be great, but the EIS process does serve a useful purpose of making sure alternatives are studied and you get the best bang for the buck before the project is built. A lot of projects have mitigation measures to pacify NIMBY's as a result of the EIS process.
For the Cross Bronx project....he could of lower to roadway to the point where it was more of a tunnel and have no direct affect on the community, but he didnt.
In fact, he even tried to build the Northern State Pkwy right into the heart of Old Westbury, but because of social and political might, he was forced to detour the project around the area. If the immigrant areas of the Bronx had the political pull, he would have been forced as well to scale down the project in one way or another.
In the end. he was an over aggressive project maker that really should have sought out community involvement instead of acting more like a "dictator".
Except that many of his roads were designed for leisure, not commerce.
For the Cross Bronx project....he could of lower to roadway to the point where it was more of a tunnel and have no direct affect on the community, but he didnt.
The Cross Bronx Expressway is already in a cut, what more do you want? The roadway was difficult to build because it had to be cut through solid rock. A deeper highway would be much more expensive, and would not have saved any property, so what good would that have been to the community?
In fact, he even tried to build the Northern State Pkwy right into the heart of Old Westbury, but because of social and political might, he was forced to detour the project around the area.
And drivers now have to deal with two dangerous, sharp curves because of that. When the LIE was built, it cut through Old Westbury. Robert Moses got his revenge for that.
In the end. he was an over aggressive project maker that really should have sought out community involvement instead of acting more like a "dictator".
Community involvement is why nothing gets done anymore. The people living near proposed projects should just be paid money to shut up. That would be fair and efficient.
Why couldn't they be more tougher on the NIMBYs?
Why should people be forced to put up with projects that are only to their own detriment without just compensation? Would you want a sewage treatment plant built next to your house? Everyone would benefit from such a facility but only its neighbors get the shaft. That's not fair, especially for people who have saved up and sacrificed so they could afford a nice house apartment in a nice place and then have the rug pulled out from under them.
A lot of people on this like to think about public works projects without thinking about the public.
Yes, even the dead couldn't rest peacfully, even they were forced to "move"(In Cypress Hills cemetery and surounding cemeteries people were dug up for the Interboro-JR Parkway).
Only the residents of Old Westbury were able to keep Robert Moses from his appointed rounds, and to this day the Northern State is even more curved, and goes a few miles out of the way in order to avoid Old Westbury.
Moses got his time when the LIE cut right through there.
As an interesting sidenote, the people of OLD Westbury didn't change too much in the decades following. In the early 80's when lamp posts were installed all the way to Patchogue Holbrook Rd on the LIE, Old Westbury managed to keep their few mile stretch dark.
They must be loosing some of their clout though - not only did the DOT get the HOV lane through Old Westbury, they also have completed the missing link of darkness.
The results of this arrogance are obvious.
but he did get things done....the way he went about it was questionable.. but he did get the job done...
Has the City done any better since the man passed away?
I think not...
Has the MTA done any better? that remains to be seen,if you let the track record speak for itself.
Wasn't like there was no commerce before the CBE. And there's commerce without the Lower Manhattan Expressway too. (There's even commerce without the Miller Elevated Highway too.)
Amazing the man who never drove forced so many others to.
Since it's attributed to a real woman who was in real politics and really got her head chopped off (one Marie Antoinette), I thought it was appropriate . . .
It's actually not very much on-topic, because very little rail was discussed and high praise for the interstates were extolled. Now we know who are the real fans of rail, consequently.
I consider myself a fan of rail, but not a fan of rail uber alles. A balanced transportation mix must exist.
The front page of Subtalk says: "Welcome to the SubTalk bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only." I didn't write that, TYVM. ;->
Besides, I was speaking of the posters that diverged from discussing the policy proper and instead went into full-blown extollations of the virtues of rail's subsidized competition.
ANd that is VERY rail and transit oriented if I do say so.
This is just the type of thing I would be worried would be killed because a "moderator" would feel this is off-topic.
How is discussing the interstates and road poicies of the past affecting the railroads and public rail transportation off topic?
You're not getting it . . . this thread is in praise of a man who believed that the world could begin and end without railroad tracks. We are very lucky that the rails persisted in spite of that belief.
Moses is getting battered in this thread because he stepped on toes but that was a necessary evil. We have learned (I hope) from some of his mistakes. The biggest lesson being that a fully balanced and developed transit infrastructure is required in an expanded and ever growing metropolis to maintain efficient traffic flow and movement of it's denizens to their destinations. That way everyone is happy.
Compared to his successors, he got nothing done when it came to rail, so it can be argued that he was just like them at least in that respect.
Those are my thoughts exactly. Well, maybe not the part about loving the LIRR.
The board already was self-moderated. Because there was nobody to rein in problem posters, the only choice was to take matters into one's own hands.
Very on topic for transit/rail issues .
Especially when they go into the virtues of non-rail transport at the expense of rail's virtues? Uh-huh.
Keep telling yourself that. The government gets a different message from that attitude, to wit that the current passenger rail setup is adequate or perhaps too large, no improvements are necessary, and people prefer driving to riding the train—anywhere.
Talking about the interstates and roads and the effect they had on the rail system and transit system is very on topic
But you're leaving that to me instead of helping my arguments.
Regards,
Jimmy
Yes, the Sheridan goes NO WHERE...
Hahahaha! On that I am now leaving before I get blocked out agin because I went over my 30 posts because of this thread yesterday. In all my years on SubTalk, it's the FIRST time I hit the post quota limit and got blocked out....and it was all "on topic".
-James
-James
Sure it would have been nice if the subway was more developed, but with more stations, tracks , tunnels, elevated structures and cars to deal with the MTA would definally be clammoring for more money.
Yup, lung cancer's a huge benefit.
We're back onto the projects again?? Don't speak of them unless you were the inhabitant of one.
Robert Moses,He was one of those people who have a vision and act on it
You mean like the visionaries in Europe building those HSR networks?
The only "vision" promulgated by Moses is that one that Eisenhower ripped off of the defeated Third Reich. Lest we forget, that "vision" helped the Allied forces penetrate Berlin faster—and if we get invaded, we're just as vulnerable.
W Bwy
Really? If, instead of running through a densely populated section of the Bronx, the same highway had been placed a few miles north in a less densely populated section of Yonkers, commerce in the northeast wouldn't function?
There wasn't much demand for east-west travel across the Bronx until Moses built a bridge to Queens across the Bronx from the existing George Washington Bridge. Until then, the major travel corridors were north-south and northeast-southwest.
Not withstanding the unrealized 125th elevated Roadway that would have flowed from it, his crown acheivement was the Triboro. He also did good on Long Island with the beaches... And, if I am not mistaken, the Bronx River Parkway is nice to, albeit, obselete. And maybe one could say the Henry Hudson in Riverside Park has some merit, though, that arguement might be hard to make by today's standards.
Moses was a character: he was a visionary of the city; but one who refused to live in the city and for that many argue he actually hated the City he actually plied.
Commerce would have functioned, but Moses wouldn't have achieved his true goal of maximizing tenant displacement - which in turn maximized the relocation funds, which somehow were never distributed to the tenants in question....
Keep in mind that, on the whole, Moses hated cities and their occupants (especially NYC). He once stated on the record that cities are not entitled to their own viability, but exist solely as conduits for suburban traffic.
it seems the park is nothing more than a gigantic asphalt flattop.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
James
Robert Moses created Jones Beach state park, Orchard Beach(I believe) and many parks in the city. Before Robert Moses, middle class peope in New York City didn't have access to parkland. There we're few parks in the city, and if they wanted to go to the country, they would often drive out to Long Island, and have a picnic on the edge of some land barrons farm/estate(before being chased off) as there we're no public parks.
I would encourage you to read "Power Broker" which is a book on Robert Moses. He was a very interesting man, as he alternately conducted projects which we're very beneficial to New York, as well as ones which we're very harmful.
Moses did a lot of good and bad things. To classify him as a diety or a demon is to not properly understand what he was.
Moses wasn't evil, per se, nor was he a God. He was just doing what he thought (in all respects to circumstances) what would supposedly benefit New York at that time. Yes, some of his highway projects did help ruin communities, but they were degrading long before Moses was even there. To add even more, the people who were 'evicted' got paid plenty for compensation so the tears were almost immediately dried.
Also keep in mind that he erected much parkland in the City with some notable projects including Orchard Beach and Flushing-Meadows Corona Park.
How Many Forum Members Does It Take To Change A Light Bulb?
1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed.
14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently.
7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.
1 to move it to the Lighting section.
2 to argue then move it to the Electricals section.
7 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs.
5 to flame the spell checkers.
3 to correct spelling/grammar flames.
6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" ... another 6 to condemn those 6 as stupid.
2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp".
15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "light bulb" is perfectly correct.
19 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a lightbulb forum.
11 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum.
36 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty.
7 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs.
4 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's.
3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group.
13 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too".
5 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy.
4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"
13 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs".
1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again.
You know, diidn't we go over this a short time ago? However this time something seems to be missing. Something involving children perhaps?
Yes, you were smack in the middle of it, although I thought your remark that caused the furor was made in ignorant innocence.
This is a riot and classy too.
This is a riot and classy too.
One to complain that those want to change a light bulb are a bunch of paranoid bedwetting cowards afraid to plunk their suit-covered anuses down in a dark room.
-M van N
Finally we might have the connection between Saddam and bin Laden!
I'm curious as to what the rebuild looks like as well. And if you really "hated America" you'd be asking for pictures of Con Head's secret power control center on 7x Street. Heh. Buy yez a ham sammich. (grin)
You mean the one at an undisclosed location near South Street Seaport, undisclosed that is except for the minor fact that the Hagstrom's Map of Lower Manhattan shows a parcel of land in just the right location labeled "Con Edison"?
Da Hui
Vote Kerry 2004!
My "Vote Kerry" was for humourous purposes only.
"My fellow Americans. As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball, but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom."
How could you not?
DEFEAT BUSH
Fahrenheit 9/11
Enough Said
On the other hand, I voted for Ralph Nader in 2000 for pres. :)
Bush should go back to Texas and do what he is best at doing. The current govenor Rick Perry sucks....he closed down two indian casinos by near force. :(
Ask and ye shall receive :)
I made a special trip up to 191 St this evening to take a boat load of pics of the rehabbed station. I had been wanting to do this for a while and you gave me a good reason to finally go. Click the thumbnail below to view the album of photos from today. Also click here to see some pretty lousy photos of the station, pre-renovation, that I took in 2002.
So a little about my experience up there. Thankfully I ran into no organized resistance. As soon as I got off the northbound (9) I saw a cop coming towards me. I pulled a "Jersey Mike" and just moved on over to a different part of the station. I mean I didn't come all the way to Washington Heights to potentially get yelled at by a cop! Luckily the cop boarded the next northbound train, AFAIK. Then the S/A in the booth told me I couldn't take photos of the booth. That's a new one... Anyhow, enjoy the photos!
After I add captions, I will tell David Pirmann that he may add the photos to this site if he wishes.
This might answer your question.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
"Cmon, the MTA is a state agency, who is going to challenge them?"
I am. And a swarm of other people will. This problem won't go away until the MTA backs down. Period. I've said it before and I'll say it again - the only way they'll ever get my camera is from my cold dead hands'. This is a war, and it's going to at times be ugly.
"The rules set forth in this rule book that prescribe employee conduct rlating to the safe operation of trains and buses are intended to place a higher standard of care on employees than is required by law". In other words they don't challenge existing laws, they are paid to follow these guidelines, they don't answer to YOU when they violate them, they answer to Labor Relations and a loss in pay is enough incentive for them to call in photographers."
And that's why the MTA needs to be harassed right back, and employees need to be hassled right back, and, unfortunately, if any cops want to get pushy beyond just asking a few questions, complaints need to be filed on them as well. It's unfortunate that some rank and file employees of the city who want to do nothing but earn a paycheck and not want go home with a headache ARE going to end up getting this thrown right back at them, but that's their problem - not the ours.
The photographers of this country are quite frankly sick and tired of having our rights used as someone else's toilet paper. We're going to war against this, and will not rest until our god given right to photograph whatever we want is secured. If there are MTA employees that don't like that (and I know there are plenty), I can only suggest two things: a) see something - or rather someone not very out of place at all taking photos, say nothing. Save yourself a headache like that dispatcher got and look the other way - or - b) complain to your superiors about the ban causing complaints and undue problems... or c)if you see something, say nothing, and get docked pay for it, take it to the press. Stand up for yourself. Find a better paying job elsewhere...
It's unfortunate that a lot of good MTA employees, cops, etc are going to get caught in this battle unnecessarily - but that is not the photographers fault. Don't blame us, we're not the goons trying to take anyone's rights away. We didn't ask for this war, but we sure as fucking hell will win it.
Roger Touissant needs to entrench his position next time the CBA comes up for renewal. What happened to this person who was supposed to be a pain in the A*S for the MTA? (The MTA has to negotiate in good faith under the Civil Service Law.)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Then the NYPD can step in and investigate. Not issue tickets -- investigate. Not only does challenging photographers set yourself up for disciplinary action, it also defeats the entire purpose of investigation by a police officer.
Say you came across a bona fide terrorist engaged in terroristic activity. If you yell at him, he'll go away and come back later or move his operations elsewhere. If you don't make it obvious that he's being watched, he'll stick around until the cops arrive.
Just what is your problem with people taking photos, anyway? And even more importantly - if you hate taht people take photos of subways, why on earth are you posting on a website that probably hosts the largest collection of photos of the NYC Subway system online, for anyone to see and study, 24/7/365 ??
If photographers are bad, then I guess so is this website and every other one like it. Maybe you should go run crying to the MTA board, fatherland security, and everyone else, and see if you can get them all taken offline. Oh no wait a minute, that would result in a lot more egg on the government's face... can't have that now can we...
Where have I been? Right here. I don't ride path much, so that never affected me. I've been sicked over the years since 9/11 about our rights getting trampled, and that proposed photo ban was the last straw. Once I heard about it on the news, me and a lot of other people took action... and we're just gunna keep on doing that, putting a lot of time and effort into making this town just a little bit better of a place...
So attacking the rank-and-file achieves nothing but cause grief for people who have little choice but to do what they're told, or face the consequences. The problem is with the big guys upstairs. Being in relativelt insulated positions of power, they don't have to take the fall for their decisions - they have subordinates who do it for them.
It's always that way - soldiers fighting each other in the field for the most part, have nothing against each other personally - they're waging war for the sake of what their superiors tell them. A man with a family joins the military to feed his family, and kills another man with a family, who also joined the military to feed his family.
Then again, there are always assholes out there, and they deserve to be put on a big old rusty R44 with the fatcats and sent to Parts Unknown.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Why does everyone insist on repeating this? I already corrected it upthread.
They were instructed to notify the authorities if they saw anything potentially suspicious (including photographers), so the authorities could investigate. They were never instructed to confront photographers themselves. Confronting photographers defeats the entire purpose.
You are incorrect. Only if the employee is enforcing an existing limitation (like the use of a tripod, or if the photograper is blocking the free movement of persons, etc) is the offender legally obligated to follow the employee's directive.
IIRC I need to look at the code.
Everybody does, including the NYPD.
If a TA worker tells me to do a somersault on the train, and I don't, I can't be fined, because my failure to do a somersault has neither violated any laws nor interfered with transit operations.
Likewise, if a TA worker tells me not to take a picture on the train (even with no flash or tripod), and I do, I can't be fined, because my photography has neither violated any laws nor interfered with transit operations.
The gentleman who refused to move off the seat was interfering with transit operations.
DEAD WRONG.
If you "yes sir" someone like this you are only encouraging them to make up "rules".
I'll give you a case in point. In June 2001 I bought a new digital cam and was shooting, among other things favorite subway stations and trains. I was going to Main St. every week or so on business and returned at night. On this occaision, I was taking shots of the station's new eastern entrance, you know, the one with the escalators that are almost allways out of service, I never use flash, it's pointless a any distance and at that hour the area is nearly deserted except for some restaurant workers going home and (sometimes) a few cops.
As I was about to take an overall shot of the escalators a voice squawked from the token booth's pa that it was "illegal to take pictures in the subway". Knowing that it not, I walked toward the booth where an older black man was on duty. As I approached he looked at me as if I were the Grim Reaper, I told him politely but firmly that there was no rule or law prohibiting photography as long as no flash or tripod was used.
His response "hey you do what you gotta do, I'am just telling you the rules" I responded "no your're making them up". I took my shot and boarded the train.
Bear in mind that this was a full two and a half months before 9-11.
There is, and will allways be this sort of person around that tries to enhance his ego by abusing his position, whether he's a cop or just a booth clerk, janitor etc.
Understand the difference between rules and LAWS, understand your rights, do NOT pick fights but do not allow people to exceed their authority.
-Lino
I'd go down to Main Street to snap some photos myself, but I'm tired of taking R-62A pics.
My approach would have been to call the employee an impostor - after all, for all I know he could be some idiot who stole an MTA uniform impersonating an MTA employee. And whatever they think the rules on photography are, surely they must know that impersonating an MTA employee is an arrestable offense. So either present some ID to me, or I'll go fetch the nice police.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
#3 West End Jeff
Good luck!
Click here to view the picture at full size
Ben F. Schumin :-)
They're both the same size!!!
they are so nice...we can use some of that sweetness here....
Don't get me wrong,I like our trains too...but WMATA CARS are sweet.
It looks like a BREDA...
God Bless our faithful Rohrs, with 28 years of yeoman service.
wayne
wayne
SAS
There is one feature of the interior shown in the photo that gives away which builder built the car. Others have mentioned this unique feature that is only found on that series. The feature was retained after the interior was rehabed.
John
John
The car on which I took the photograph was a Rohr. I figured the giveaways would be the emergency door release cover and the fact there is no place above the middle of the 3 windows to stick the Metro Safety In Numbers type ad placards and public hearing information. In any other type of WMATA car, that space would be visible, but on the Rohrs, it is located directly above the empty first seats in the photo that are directly in front of the subjects, where the interior strip map was formerly located.
Feel free to post rationale, it should be interesting. I decided to post that picture because there were no easy giveaways as far as I could tell as to the car type due to the picture being black and white and the obvious identifying pictures of the car not being visible in the photo.
Thanks to all who "played along."
The window rubber is much thinner on Rohrs. Breda window rubber is much much thicker than the one in that picture.
SAS
And SOMETHING in that pic was saying to me that the seats were orange... So I just threw the Rohr guess up.
Now mind you, after some many years, they may get worn down to shiny in places, but for now, they are brushed.
As for not doing rubber handrails on the CAFs and the rehabs, it's just as well - the Breda ones do look kinda worn out in places.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
1.) The unusually thin lining of the edge of the window is a Rohr exclusive, all other car series have thick rubber lining around the windows
2.) The ad rack fixtures have much more sharper and squared off corners while the rest of the cars have more rounded off edges
3.) The handrails of the rohrs are chrome, Bredas are rubber coated, CAFs are brushed stainless steel
4.) The seat coverings on the Rohrs are generally more shinier than the rest of the series
Had you not chosen to show just the middle section I could have been even more sure because of the extra seats on the Rohrs on the ends
John
Of course another memory is when it was night and the incandescent station lights were on. They would dim slightly and get brighter when a train on the line was taking power.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
I recently went to New York City to see the legendary Elton John perform at Radio City Music Hall. As a railfan I obviously went down to the Big Apple by train and rode around the city in its famed subway system. It was a really long day but got to see a lot and had a great time. This report is a look at where at I went and the trains I rode.
I prepared for this trip by researching online and talking to fellow railfans for information that I might need to know. Also I got my commuter rail and subway tokens for Boston area trips in advance that way I didn’t have to worry about that at the end of the trip. Also I got my Amtrak tickets in advance and the plan was to take Amtrak #173 on 7-14 and return on 7-15 on Amtrak #66. But I thought about possibly switching to train 93 leaving Boston on 7-14 two hours earlier and would allow me to take a spin to Coney Island and back. But I would find out on Wednesday July 14th to see if I can take that train and do that side trip.
I left my house in Lynn, Massachusetts little before 7am and after breakfast with my dad, I got dropped at the commuter rail station in my city where I boarded a 744am train to Boston. It was a short 20 minute trip, but unfortunately since it was rush hour I had to stand the whole way, but least I ran into a friend on the train so it wasn’t too bad. Once I arrived in North Station (the same place that next week will be closed for the Democratic National Convention) I went over to the new superstation and boarded a green line trolley to Park Street where I made a quick transfer to the red line. I rode the red line 2 stops to South Station where I got up. Soon later I was in the concourse of the historic South Station
First thing I did once I got to South Station I went to the Amtrak ticket counter and attempted to change my ticket to train 93 and after a few minutes that mission was an success. So all I did was waited in the station and loaded up on Newspapers and got some snacks and a bottle of water. At 9am a redcap helped me get on the train earlier because he remembered me and my somewhat limited mobility to two recent surgeries. Well I found a nice seat on the westbound side.
Our train left on time, but it was slowed as it traveled along the Southwest Corridor southward possibly due to a track fire, but after Forest Hills our train started to pick up to normal speed but we were little late getting to 128 station, but wasn’t too bad. Before you knew it we were in Providence and heading towards Connecticut. A little after 12 we arrived in New Haven but we lost a few minutes due to boardings here but within 10 minutes we left. Rest of the way we made reasonable time going to New York considering the tracks we were on and were in New York Penn Station by 2pm. I detrained and this began my first ever New York experience on my own!
I got up the stairs and soon I walked over to the concourse passing the entrance to subway that I would use in a bit, because I had to make a restroom break, once that was taken care of, I backtracked down to that entrance and got a One day Unlimited use Metrocard which was a great thing to get, then I picked up two subway maps, the 100th anniversary edition, and entered the subway. I wanted to take the A-C-E line downtown but accidentally took it uptown, but I quickly realized my mistake and got of at Port Authority and switched directions and got on a downtown train and took that to West 4th Street station. There I went down two stairways and got onto the D line which would take me all the way to Coney Island. Its quite a long trip, but one cool thing is that it crosses the Manhattan Bridge so you get some cool views there. I noticed that the NYC subway to me is a lot faster and rougher than the subway we got up here in Boston. But it was cool to bypass stations like they do down there, and also I remember couple times where my train would race another train for a bit, before one of the trains stops at a station,. But by 315 I was at Coney Island. You could see all the work they have done at the station and it looks really nice but looks like also that they have more to do there.
I left the system and crossed the street and had a little snack at the original Nathan’s Famous on Surf Ave. I was in the area briefly but was cool to be at the popular seaside amusement area. After I was done with the snack I returned to the Subway station at Stilwell Ave and decided to go back to Manhattan via the Q line. It was a good decision since I gave me great views of the famous Wonder Wheel and probably the most famous coaster in the US if not the world the Cyclone, One question I noticed from the Q a track enter from the north there but we didn’t use it, is that the trackage that the N would use to get back to Coney Island when it gets extended again? Well our train traveled uptown and headed back over the Manhattan Bridge and went back underground and before I knew it we were at 42nd street/ Times Sq and that’s where I got off. I found the signs for the 42nd st and 6th Ave exit, it was clear that this wasn’t a major exit just because how small the stairwell was, but it worked out good for me it put me right across from the ESPN zone where I was eating dinner.
After dinner and making sure the thunderstorm that passed through was done I decided to walk over to 6th Ave along 42nd St where I would take either a subway or bus to get me to Radio City. I decided to take the bus that way I could see some of the sights, and it was free with my metrocard, but I noticed that the subway would have worked out just as well since there are exits very convenient to the venue. Well I made it to Radio City and went to the Elton John concert and it was a great time but you don’t need to hear about that here.
Once the show ended I walked back over to 7th Avenue and walked in the direction of Times Square, I was a little hungry so I had a little snack at TGI Friday’s, so I didn’t have to worry about finding a snack at Penn Station at 1am, (but as I found out as I got to Penn Station there is some places open in the LIRR concourse) but better to be safe than sorry. Well I decided that I wanted one more spin on the Subway and took the 1 train to South Ferry, there were people on the train when I boarded, but by the end of the line it was just me and a guy sleeping, not exactly what I wanted, so I moved up to a car with a more friendly looking person on it, and we looped around and headed back uptown.
I got off at 32nd St/Penn Station, but had one more experience trying to find the entrance back to Penn Station but couldn’t find it so I had to go upstairs and cross the street and enter Penn Station by the entrance to MSG, it wasn’t too big of a deal but wasn’t as easy as my entrance to the subway early the previous day. My train wasn’t supposed to leave until 315 so I had some time to explore the complex. I went down to the LIRR concourse and noticed that they basically have their own station, and NJT has its own area for its passengers waiting to board. Then I went over to the Amtrak section and noticed an obvious increase in Security in this area. I went into the Amtrak waiting area, and just took it easy, except for meeting up with a friend and going to get a drink, I got to board my train a bit earlier again due to the mobility, the time was 3am.
I got to my business class seat on train 66 and got to see a surprising amount of movements in the station including an obvious non revenue acela which was cool to see especially at that hour. I also saw several NJT and LIRR trains go by. Which gave me this question even though Amtrak, NJT, and LIRR have own sections do all 3 use the same general tracks or least can see their tracks from my track which was track 9? We left New York at about 330 am. It was nice to have business class here since it meant more room and it also meant free drinks. Even though I was really tired I could sleep much on the train. We got to New Haven about 5am and 715 into Providence, but we were so early into PVD that we sat there to pick up the passengers boarding here. There had to be significant amount of new boardings here since I heard there were people standing and the seat next to me became filled for the first time during the ride. One guy was moved out of the seat when he found out that he had to pay the $13 business class charge, but they had no problem finding another guy to fill the seat. Besides the sodas and water on the train the only train food I got was a Swiss Omelet Bagel Sandwich which wasn’t too bad. We arrived into South Station on time and that completed my Amtrak experience. I know I was just going to NYC but I enjoyed the rides on the system.
But my trip wasn’t completely over I still had to get to Swampscott Mass where my parents would pick me up. I thought about rushing over to catch the 830 train by getting off at Back Bay, but I was too tired to do that so I would wait for the 945 train. I used the token that I previously got and got on the Red line but got off at the next inbound stop Downtown Crossing where I took the Orange Line up one stop to State Street. Since I had a little time to spare I went to the Borders Book Store and got a cool book on Streetcar Trolleys of Boston during the 1940s. Back to the present I went back on the Orange Line and went northbound two stops and got off at North Station and made it to the station in time to make my 945 train to home! I got off at Swampscott and my father was there to take me home. I had a really long day, but it was a lot of fun and I would do this again in a heartbeat.
Jack
Jack
The CTA is considering constructing a Silver Line that would connect the Blue and Green Lines. The proposed line would run between the Ashland stop of the Green Line, and the Harrison junction, where the Forest Park and Cermak Blue Lines meet. There’s not a station there, so it sounds like they’d put one in. Other proposed Silver Line stations include a stop at Madison for the United Center (good call) and one on Van Buren.
Critics of the plan, which is still unofficial, say that the proposed line would cut already shabby service on the West Side. In 1997, the CTA started running fewer trains on the Cermak branch, and some people in Little Village, Pilsen and Lawndale are concerned that Silver Line will cut the number of Blue Line trains again. Currently, the Cermak branch has no weekend service.
In an attempt to accommodate riders’ needs, the CTA will launch a series of “community workshops.”
Starting late this month, the CTA will hold community workshops to gather information on the travel habits of residents of the West Side and the near west suburbs. People interested in participating can call 312-681-2716 to sign up, officials said.
"They are not public meetings in the traditional sense of a presentation and one question at a time from the audience," said CTA spokeswoman Noelle Gaffney. "Instead, these will be smaller, interactive workshops where participants will work on teams to develop service plans."
The Silver Line is part of the broader, more ambitious Circle Line plan that would connect all the CTA lines as well as the Metra. The CTA is planning a major redesign that includes a lot of construction.
A project the city hopes to build in several years is a transit superstation on the long-vacant Block 37 downtown. The station would be located between the Red and Blue Lines and offer rail connections to the Orange Line. Express trains to O'Hare and Midway Airports would serve the $213 million station development, bounded by State, Randolph, Dearborn and Washington Streets.
Other ideas under consideration include adding stations on the Green Line, connecting the Orange Line that serves Midway with the Brown Line serving the Kimball Avenue terminal and hooking up the Blue Line at Ashland with the Orange Line, officials said.
www.forgotten-ny.com
That said, the Silver Line may get them more trains and weekend service -- just by virtue of it being the only train connection to the United Center.
Either way, it's going to happen because it is Phase I of the Circle Line plan -- which Daley wants. The CTA wouldn't get sneaky federal funding to rehab the Paulina Connection and then not run service through there.
So clearly this is GOOD. Now the question is, how does Chicago want to utilize it? Every plan has plus and minus about it.
In a way, this shares a little with the completion of the 63rd Street line in NYC. 3 new stations (4 if you count 57th Street becoming more than just a terminal) being connected to the Queens side of the system.
The same questio arose: How do you use it best? Debating and screaming and back and forth until finally something is settled upon.
I'm sure CTA will come up with a decent plan.
It's kinda like the connection of the Q at 21st-Queensbridge. When the MTA proposed changing the F and V routing, people in Queens got worried that they would get shafted. Same thing in this case.
Like I said: It's Phase I of the Circle Line plan, so it *will* happen. What Daley wants, Daley gets (in this town).
You make talking about trains fun again...
As for ChiTown,I am happy to see them expanding their system,add some new routes here and there when ever there are funds availible...
It's nice to know traction is still being built,instead of paving over everything...
Also,did you know that the TA is STILL looking for ways to build its Queens X-town line to Forest hills?
I thought they dropped that line like a hot knife....
It can still be done. The Connector was actually a part of that whole scheme. Well, now the Connector is done and in service, so let's have the TA build the new line off the 63rd St tunnel like what should have happened in the first place.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
That should read "half a block north."
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
See: http://www.chicago-l.org/stations/marshfield.html
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Correct url: Marshfield Jct.
-Chris
-Chris
Sorry for the mixup.
-Chris
-Chris
Not just trains built within the last 15 years.
-Chris
--ark
That express is only 3 minutes faster than the local. The C doesn't run at 3-minute headways ever. Unless there's a bad case of bunching, it's impossible to catch up to the next C by taking an express. But if the express takes more than 3 minutes to arrive, it's quite easy to fall one C behind.
This being the IND, many passengers will never realize it. Their loss.
But yes from a local stop below 174-175(it is possible to backtrack if an uptown train comes first) it would be better to stay on the local train.
That's not typical. 5 minutes is the more typical. Rarely does a D express get to 59th St before a B local when the B leaves BPB 5 minutes before the D does. Unfortunatley, that damned wait at 145th St assures that the B will take longer to get to 59th than it has to.
The B is never scheduled to hold at 145th, but the schedule grants it one more minute to get there from BPB than the D, even though they both follow the same exact route, so the B is probably held to kill that minute. I do know that, during the 7:00 hour, southbound B's often run 1-2 minutes early at 59th, where they're invariably not held -- those trains, I suppose, are released from 145th early.
The B schedule has too much padding. It's a problem in Manhattan, it's a problem at Gold Street interlocking, and it's a problem at Brighton Beach.
I've ridden the southbound B thru 145th St about 20 times since 2/24/04. All have been the same 3 scheduled trains (7:24, :34 or :44 out of BPB) and the wait I describe was exeperienced, to varying degrees, on every trip.
The 7:24 and 7:32 (not 7:34; the schedules were changed in May) have scheduled holds at 59th; perhaps the holds are being taken at 145th instead, for whatever reason. The 7:44 has no scheduled holds, but, as I said before, it is given 20 minutes to get there from BPB while the D makes it in 19, so if nothing goes wrong, the B will invariably be ahead of schedule at 145th.
What bugs me is the relative infrequency of peak direction Concourse local service. 6-7 TPH is inadequate, but won't be a factor until after the Concourse line's GO eliminating express service expires.
What about 6th Avenue riders from 163rd and 155th?
Concourse 8th Ave riders took the D to 59th for the A or C.
Those coming from local stops in the AM rush didn't.
B-to-A-to B/D at 59th was the choice of most of these riders. Smart ones remained on the train.
Those coming from local stops in the AM rush didn't
Yes, for the most part, especially in the R10 days.
The "B" would have THREE yards at its disposal if it ran to 168th St. Coney Island at one end and 174th and 207th Sts at the other end.
W Broadway Local
"The police were investigating yesterday whether the young off-duty transit officer who reported finding a burning backpack in the Times Square subway station on Monday night might have actually planted it there himself and detonated the pipe bomb inside, several police officials said. ...
The officer has not been charged with any crime, and ... they had no direct evidence tying him to the explosion. ...
The officer, Joseph Rodriguez, 27, ... had just been forced to retire on a psychological disability pension and yesterday was to have been his last day on the force, the end of a short four-year career. ...
The police began focusing on the officer soon after the blast ... their interest in the officer was provoked by ... questions that arose about his version of the events surrounding the explosion. ...
Officer Rodriguez had left the Manhattan Transit Task Force office in the Times Square station a few minutes before the end of his shift and, he later told the police, he saw a blue and black nylon backpack on fire near the stairway. ... rather than call 911, or the task force offices, or return inside, the officer called the task force looking for a friend and fellow officer, a senior official said. He wound up being transferred several times before reaching his friend and notifying him of the burning bag, the official said. ..."
It looks like one of those in street reflectors that you drive over, very intresting idea.
So T/O's out there, do you see the IJ marking better with the reflector? Do you have to have the headlights on hi-beam or not?
They still have to touch up the paint on the stop arm. Remember when they used to paint the handrail in the tunnels all the time, too.
The stations you passed under were:
-Parkchester (6)
-174 Street (2)(5)
-Mount Eden Avenue (4)
The only station I know FOR SURE that you passed underneath was the Parkchester station. You actually went underneath a large traffic circle/business district called Hugh Grant Circle -- that was that long tunnel you went through when you first saw the R-142A's of the (6). The elevated (6) line has a stop right on top of that traffic circle, and thus, right on top of the highway.
The other two stations I mentioned because they look close to Interstate 95 on the subway map. But to my knowledge, you don't actually pass directly under those stations.
The Cross-Bronx actually passes under the Concourse line.
Ohhh....is that the part where the Cross Bronx suddenly heads into a very low 'ditch' shortly before crossing under the (4) tracks? I think I remember seeing multiple bridges up above, but don't remember actually seeing a (B) or (D) train.
Peace,
ANDEE
PROFF:
--Mark
You also forgot to mention the 1/9 runs underneath Saint Nicholas Ave and the A line at Fort Washington Ave, both under the Trans-Manhattan Expressway portion of I95 before entering the George Washington Bridge.
The 6 at Pelham Bay Park sits just outside the Bruckner portion of I95 also. But you won't notice it while driving, since the expressway is open cut at that point.
Since I495 begins at Exit 17 (I278), should it make sense to adopt I478 instead?
That's not how three digit interstates work. With 3dis, they only have to connect to the two digit parent, direction doesn't matter.
The two violations in 495 is that one of its ends is not on an interstate (therefore the first digit should be odd) and it doesn't connect to I-95.
As originally planned, I-495 would have run from I-95 in New Jersey to I-78 in Queens and thus its number fit.
Since I495 begins at Exit 17 (I278), should it make sense to adopt I478 instead?
Then it would be a violation because it would have an even first digit, and I-278 itself is a bastard. If you wanted to have fully legitimate I-numbers, then I-278 should be I-495 and I-495 should be I-195. Nevertheless, nobody really cares, the numbers as they are do their job fine enough, nobody knows how the system works anyway, and clearly AASHTO doesn't care, since they allowed I-238 in California, which is a violation of every interstate numbering rule there is (there is no I-38).
Techinally I-278 should be I-295.
The Van Wyck Expressway should be I-395
The Clearview Expressway should be I-595.
Here are other possibilities:
1a)Redesignate I-278 from the Triboro Bridge to NJ as a continuation of I-87.
1b)Redesignate The Bruckner Expressway and Clearview as I-387
1c)Redesignate the LIE to I-187
1d)Redesignate the Van Wyck to I-195
2a)Redesignate The Bruckner Expwy and Van Wyck Expwy as continuation I-87
2b)Redesignate the LIE as I-187
2c)Redesignate The Clearview as I-395 or I-387
2c)Redesignate I-278(SIE & BQE) as I-195 or I-587
Since the Clearview Expressway both starts and ends on an interstate, it should be even, not odd.
1b)Redesignate The Bruckner Expressway and Clearview as I-387
See above
This is news to me! When did the Grand Central Parkway or Hillside Ave become an interstate?
1b)Redesignate The Bruckner Expressway and Clearview as I-387
See above
See Above
Its western terminus is the BQE, not the Clearview.
Glad to hear it's still posted. Every try to make a left turn there onto NY 24?
South Ferry station does not break the line of the Underpass, but I don't know if it is deeper or shallower than the Underpass.
Battery Tunnel is to the west of the 1/9.
You also crossed over the Amtrak NY-Boston section of the NEC between where you went under the 6 and the 2/5. You crossed over Metro-Nort before Jerome Av. The B/D goes under the highway at Grand Councourse.
Actually the B/D goes under the grand concourse, but the Cross Bronx tunnels under both of them! Grand Concourse is the overpass which looks like it has a lotta rock piled up on top, and then the grand concourse....but the subway is inside that rock!
And there is no <5> anymore.
The May 2004 map trades some inaccuracies (diamond A, D, 4, etc) for others (diamond 5).
Gerry
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?28676 77 78 79
I caught the new video for young singer FeFe Dobson on MTV.
She is the singer that came out with the hit song "Take Me Away".
Anyway, one of the locations of her new video is on R 11. I think that is the number for the subway train that was stainless steel and had the two round windows on each door?
The video was probably filmed in the NYC Transit Museum.
I figured I would contribute this to the board.
Finally, after about three minutes, the doors opened. I noticed that the first car of the R-46 set was outside the station, and the second car was at the 10 car sign.
Is this correct procedure? I've been on the platform, and seen the first door of the first car outside the station. When this has happened, the doors don't open at all, and the train simply leaves the station.
And with deference to YonkersMM (and to save a valuable post) I agree that posting details of "unusual events" isn't a good thing with beakies on parade, but let's also congratulate the original poster for making it sufficiently vague that fingering a crew is nearly impossible. It's not like what some OTHERS have done here ...
No time of day, to protect the guilty.
But these are modern times where society has the collective IQ of a traffic cone and have to be protected. Hell, look at the elections if you need proff. :)
Matt
Matt
All four tracks in the area of New Rochelle are out of service due to wire damage, which occurred shortly before 8:30 AM. As a result there is no service, inbound or outbound, passing through New Rochelle at this time. Emergency crews are assessing the situation. Please continue to check our website for service updates.
Peace,
ANDEE
Flexibility is a poor choice for the ruling factor in modal choice...
ALERT
New Haven Line 10:10 AM
There is limited inbound service on the New Haven Line. Customers should expect delays of 1-1/2 to 2 hours due to severe train congestion caused by the wire damage in the New Rochelle area.
After we clear the backlog, we will be operating hourly eastbound and westbound service. Trains will leave Grand Central Terminal 10 minutes after the hour. Trains departing New Haven will operate according to the timetable and make all local stops.
Please continue to check this website for service updates.
Where (how far after the split) does it change to 3rd rail?
MNRR has combined the hourly New Haven express trains and half-hourly Stamford locals into a single hourly local train. I was just on the 10:10 from GCT, which arrived Greenwich at 11:35. A normal trip would take about :55 minutes on the local, so there's about a 30 minute delay through the area once you get on a train.
CG
Meanwhile, the train eventually left at 10:30, and had a running timeof well over 3:00 (Well, it was over 3 when I got off at New. C.)
What's so off the wall about the wire work there that it seems like 9 out of 10 dewirements occurr there? Is the junction and all really that complex?
I've never heard of constant tension cat causing so many problems. BM&LP and BC Rail both have modern installations in North America and it seems they never had the problems, admittedly they don't experience the same temperature difference as the NE (somewhat ironic since one's a desert and the other in canada). Amtrak has Constant Tension cat over the southbound 'express' track north of Hamilton station, and the only difference I noted there was fewer arcs from my Arrow when I rode under it at night.
Your pal,
Tense
Your pal,
Jethro
Peace..:&:..Love
J e n
by the way i got home at 12:00 fukker.
Peace,
ANDEE
MNCR doesn't seem to have any problem maintaining the 53 mile long line from GCT to Southeast.
Is this the new catenary, the one without the triangles ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The empty train, which had come from Grand Central, was crossing over the tracks on its way to pick up passengers on the New York-bound platform in New Rochelle. Metro-North officials said the pantograph, the spring-loaded arm on top of the train, became tangled in the web of wires carrying 11,000 volts overhead. That knocked out the power along several miles of tracks and disrupted the travel schedules of an estimated 20,000 customers.
Story in times.
Now I have more pictures of swipers at 3 different locations (they are all captioned). I have already notified police whenever I saw them, so hopefulle they will be more aggressive over the next few days.
Oh! I forgot to mention, that a NYPD Sergeant told me that "you can go ahead, take as many pictures as you want. Just no tripods or flash, you know the law.". From the lips of a ranking NYPD supervisor yet. Hmmmm the MTA brass sure know how to brainwash customers, photographers, and even NYCT employees who are forced to comply with a real phony directive. I really feel for these workers, they have to keep their jobs, no matter the circumstances involved.
So next time you get stopped by an MTA employee, listen and comply. But never feel they are the enemies because they have a job to do and one of their job descriptions, is to adhere to all directived issued by 370 Jay Street, or 347 Madison Ave brass.
Burglars provide a public service by redistributing goods that people obviously don't need and supplying an impromptu street peddler who saves a hurried commuter time and money.
Murderers do a public service too. Why should one spouse have to suffer, paying for shyster lawyers and facing corrupt judges and going deep into debt while the other spouse spends freely, sleeps around and doesn't pay child support? A hit man with a silenced .22 provides an economically efficent service and competition for the courts, which otherwise are a monopoly.
The Nobel Committee hasn't picked the 2005 economics winner yet...
I have accidentally caused MVMs to malfunction at least 10 times.
The machines have ripped me off so many times that if there is a swiper there at my home station, I will use them over the MVM.
That machine has programmed my single ride tickets as bus transfers, and occasionally will give incorrect change.
The swipers provide quick, more reliable service.
The mailers are postage paid.
Peace,
ANDEE
The reason theres no swipers is because you hit a key word "manned booth's". And when I go to PA and ride septa, everybody has there money ready to hand to the clerk, unlike NY, PA actually thinks.
"I have accidentally caused MVMs to malfunction at least 10 times. "
Really? Could you describe exactly what you did to make that happen?
Are you sure you're not purposefully jamming up the machines and selling swipes yourself?
:0)
Matt
But NYCTA should being out the smartcard already, the airtrain has them ready, and so does the MVM's, the turnstyles need to be modified for the smartcards.
What I mean by having them is that there ready to be used, but the cards arent out yet.
Each has its pluses and minuses; Windows vulnerabilities are better known and publicized due to the greater market penetration, higher transaction volumes etc.
Windows NT, to be exact.
-RJM
Not many riders buy single rides. You're much better off buying enough rides to get the bonus.
CG
You also could fly from Newark (EWR) on Air France (AF), connecting in Paris (CDG) to Bamako (BKO), then Air Mali (Z8) to Timbuktu (TOM). With a one-month advance purchase, the best fare I could find for the EWR-BKO flight was $2,168; Travelocity doesn't carry BKO-TOM fares.
Mali, the country in which Timbuktu is located, is trying to attract Western tourists. It's a stable democracy with free elections and full civil liberties, a tradition of hospitality towards travelers, and many interesting cultural attractions.
D'uh. So they are quite happy to lose one out every six rides they buy! Quite apart from the inconvenience of havig to queue up to buy their ride every time. Would they really lose one out of every six MetroCards that they buy?
I sometimes think that the incidence of mental deficiency seems to be much higher in New York than in other mejor cities with subway systems...
If you think the riders are bad, you oughta see the politicians!
90% of the daily riders rode two trips per day. They bought 1 token in the morning and 1 token to go home. Since the tokens were sold for the rate of fare and no discount was given for purchases in numbers greater than a single ride, a token was bought for every ride.
When the token went away, the single ride card took it's place. The rider's habit never changed.
Baltimore virtually eliminated tokens in 1962. At that time, the cash fare was 25 cents, tokens were sold 4 for 90 cents. BTC, hard for cash, asked the Maryland PSC to allow a 27 cent cash fare and 4 tokens for $1.00. The PSC disallowed the 27 cent cash fare, but allowed the new token rate. So, the tokens basicly vansihed. Since the token rate and the cash rate were the same (25 cents a ride) nobody bought tokens except railfans, who bought a roll of tokens at the carhouses.
That would obviously involve hiring more people to maintain and fix the MVM machines. Where should this money come from, and would you support a fare increase that would, in part, pay for more MVM maintainers?
I'd assume that one could make a reasonable economic case for dumping the booth attendants and splitting those budget positions up with 80% becoming "station attendants" and 20% going towards MVM maintainers. You probably wouldn't even need that many.
CG
The swipers commit
1) Vandalism
2) Trespass
3) Illegal use of MetroCard (offering swipes)
4) Theft of service
A certain percentage also have committed other crimes such as
1) Drug dealing
2) Burglary or robbery
3) Assault
or other offenses for which there are open warrants. Whenever NYPD picks up a swiper, there is a chance an open warrant for something else will be discovered upon a computer check.
It's easy for a swiper to be generous with money that isn't his (or hers).
David
Stu
The everyone commits
1) Vandalism
2) Trespass
3) Drug dealing
4) Burglary or robbery
5) Assault
I would be interested in knowing just what percentage of swipers have outstanding warrants for serious offenses. It might well be half or more.
I see the swipers as an agent that pools together all the "single riders" and "negiotiates" with the MTA for a reduced rate. Just like the state itself does with drug makers.
Too bad there aren't any children doing swiping, Jacko would REALLY like to wrestle them :)
Except in the most extreme cases, there's no good reason why someone should be stuck in the city with just a dollar.
That is precisely the problem with you. U must obey the law, like it or not.
I know this one guy who lives in Bay Ridge who was late for a basketball game in Rockaway that was going to start in 5 mins. He went 70 mph on 4 Ave and ran every red light in order to make time. I assume you would see nothing wrong in doing that, because the law would be immaterial to you in the case of a rush. No?
I hope that the next time you try it that u will be snagged with the $25 fine for breaking the law. Maybe then u will realize that it's not such a good idea.
You are defending people who are robbing the Subway that you love. I still can't understand why some of you do that. Illegal trespassing, arguing with transit police, using the swipers, doing things against the rules of something you like so much. I just don't get it. These swipers don't like the Subway and are robbing it, don't help them.
-Broadway Buffer
that's not a good comparison.........
broadway, if the mta would show as much passion to fighting this as much as you guys, i'm all for it.....but they don't seem to care at all.........we can all sit here and argue for each side, but in the end, it comes down to whether or not the mta will do enough to change things.............
I guess the MTA has larger priorities right now, but I just hope as many people get fined for it as possibe.
-Broadway Buffer
:-) Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
Last week I posed the question of whether a passengers who pays a swiper for access is doing anything illegal. No one answered. I'll have to try to take a look at the rules myself.
Here's something I've done a number of times when hosting friends from out of town - I swipe myself in with my $40(+bonus) Metrocard, then hand my card back over for my friends to use (rather than wait on line for the MVM). Then, depending on mutual agreement, either the ride's on me, or we go Dutch treat and they owe me $2. In the former case, my friend hasn't paid a red cent to get into the system (I did) - are they stealing? In the latter case, I only effectively pay $1.80 with the discount and my friend gives me $2 - am I stealing from them?
How is this different from the activity of a swiper except that
(1) typically unlimited cards are used (I could have used an unlimited card, but then my friends would each have to wait 18 minutes)
(2) the swiper doesn't know the swipee personally
Or is the activity I described above, letting a friend use my Metrocard, illegal?
The unlimited card is intended for the use of one person only. How this is written into any particular law, I do not know.
CG
There's a way you can get screwed by the multiple transfer thing:
Suppose you and two buddies get on the subway, paying $2 each using the same card ($6 altogether). Then you go downtown. Your two friends go home, and you hop onto an express bus. You dip your card, and what happens is the step-up fare (an additional $2) is charged for all three transfers on the card (or an additional $6). I don't know if this is still a problem, but it was in the past.
FWIW, if I went and bought a $400 Pay-Per-Ride metrocard (+40 bonus), I could theoretically stand at at a turnstile adjacent to broken MVMs, charge people $2 for me to swipe them through, and I'd make $40 off each card I bought (each card at $440 total value is good for 220 swipes, and I make $2 off each, so I make $440 gross off a $400 card, for $40 net profit). So far as I can tell, this would be perfectly legal, provided that it wasn't my action that disabled the MVMs (unless a cop wanted to give me a hard time for loitering).
Did you pay the full fare to enter the system? And the money you paid to, was that directly to NYCT or to a scumbag's pocket?
And the 3rd question is, does the rules apply "with equal force" to people aiding or abetting people in violation of the rules themselves?
I will let you decide for yourself.
You might be right. But I remain skeptical; as far as I know, you as a passenger fulfill your legal obligation by entering through a turnstile following the swiping of a card through the reader. How that card was paid for is not at issue. Consider this scenario: an exceptionally generous person buys a large number of unlimited ride MC's and uses them to swipe people through for free. Would the recipients of his generosity be committing a crime?
It could be argued that people who pay swipers are involved in a conspiracy to deprive NYCT of fare revenues and can be prosecuted accordingly. That seems a real stretch, however.
What if a generous person went around feeding quarters into expired parking meters? That's a ticketable offense.
"Cannot be used again at the same subway station or the same bus route for 18 minutes. The acceptance or solicitation of compensation for use of an Unlimited Ride MetroCard by other than authorized agents of MTA New York City Transit is prohibited."
Clearly, accepting money for swiping people with your unlimited is not allowed under MTA rules and can be considered theft of service. Swiping people in for free because you're a swell guy doesn't violate that specific rule, but it is worth noting that there are specific references that the card is intended for the use of one person at a time -- someone could interpret that to mean that swiping in multiple people for free violates that rule, resulting in a fare evasion charge.
The "Conditions of Use" of a pay-per-ride MC do not make any prohibition on swiping in others for money. So if you wanted to buy a bunch of MC's and get the 20% bonus (16% discount) and then stand by the turnstile selling swipes for $2 then it would seem you are free to do so (ignoring any loitering or other regulations).
As to the question of whether the person paying the swiper is guilty of anything, I guess it could be argued that they might be in hotter water than the swiper. If the swiper is guilty of fare evasion, then they have stolen the ride. The swipee might then be considered to have "received stolen property" (is a subway ride property? -- depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is), the penalties for which presumably can run much worse than the $25 fine fare evaders get.
CG
You do the best you can to assess a fine against the parents or legal guardians.
"I don't think the city can afford a $500 fine for fare evasion."
Nonsense. If that were true then the Quality of Life campaign started by Guiliani and William Bratton would have been a miserable failure. It was the best move the city ever made.
OK. So what do you do with an 18 year old. If they can't pay the fine, they have to be sentenced to something. The only alternative is jail time. Our jails are generally at or near capacity -- I don't think NYers want to fund new ones to incarcerate subway fare evaders.
"Nonsense. If that were true then the Quality of Life campaign started by Guiliani and William Bratton would have been a miserable failure. It was the best move the city ever made."
Nonsense? Hardly. The success of the quality of life campaign was that they enforced existing regulations, made arrests and then checked for warrants. It had nothing to do with the magnitude of the punishment (other than the prior punishment being zero). The quality of life campaign works equally well with $25 fines or $500 fines for fare evasion.
The problem the TA faces is not that the fare evasion penalty is only $25. The problem is that the laws (as currently written and interpreted) don't allow for Swiping to be prosecuted as anything other than fare evasion -- so the penalty is $25 and you're back out on the street to swipe again tomorrow.
If they could find a way to raise the penalty for swiping to $1000 or 10 days in jail, the overwhelming majority of swipers would disappear tomorrow.
CG
Confiscation of the swiper's cards is probably a more effective deterrent.
Not quite. The increased pace of arrests also made for increased processing costs (housing and transport, increased demand for prosecutor time and judge) and so on. Yet the results were quite positive.
As to the fare, I refer you to the City of Los angeles, which has an honor system. There, if a sheriff's deputy catches you without a fare on board an MTA train, the fine is much stiffer than $25. The rate of fare evasion there is quite low.
Yes, we can afford stiffer fines. An 18 year old can work, and at his/her first job the city can subtract a percentage of wage until the fine is paid off. I have no problem with that.
I believe it's something like $250.
That's an interesting thought. I wonder if any swipe-acceptees ever have been charged with anything.
Yes, because that is a violation of the terms of the unlimited use card.
If on the other hand, a wealthy person bought a whole bunch of unlimited use cards and gave one each to a lucky recipient, that is perfectly legal.
RiB: "Yes, because that is a violation of the terms of the unlimited use card."
I don't think it's as clear as a simple yes/no. Clearly the swiper is violating the terms of the card. It is not clear that the swipee has violated any TA rule. Presumably (though not anywhere I could find in a quick search) there is a statement somewhere that a person may enter the system upon payment of a valid fare. Since the swiper's swipes are not valid, the swipee would then be fare evading as well.
CG
If you enter the system by paying a swiper, you commit theft of service (since the TA doesn't receive its fare from you but you still ride the train). However, your likelihood of being prosecuted is very low.
I believe you -- I just haven't seen the actual statement anywhere in print that the TA requires payment of a valid fare in order to ride. I do assume that it is somewhere.
One asterisk belongs on your statements, though. Your statements are true for the case of someone swiping an unlimited card (obviously the overwhelming majority of the time). It is not true if you pay someone who swipes a pay-per-ride.
However, I speculate that some in the TA may consider payment of $2 to someone who uses a discounted Pay-Per-Ride card the equivalent of "scalping" (bureaucracy, you know) - but I I think that the subtraction of a ride from your card makes my ride valid, so long as you consented freely.
It is very common on busses -- even encouraged by some bus drivers -- since NYCT still doesn't accept dollar bills. Person boards, realizes they don't have enough change for a $2 fare but have 2 singles. Often a person will volunteer to dip their pay-per-ride card in exchange for $2. On occasion, I have seen a driver ask for volunteers to do so.
If I recall correctly, NYCTA doesn't accept dollar bills because the bus depots use vacuum hoses to suck the money out of the fareboxes, and paper money would be shredded. But with higher and higher fares, it becomes ever more unwirldy to pay with coins.
Time for NYCTA to review its revenue collection methods? Or are there enough MetroCards around so it doesn't matter?
CG
See http://www.mta.info/nyct/rules/rules.htm#payment
CG
Since now it appears that paying a swiper is itself a violation of MTA rules, it would make sense for the police to start a crackdown by giving summonses to "swipees." Summonsing or arresting the swipers is of more limited value because most of them don't fear geting caught and treat fines or even jail time as mere business expenses. On the other hand, most of the people who pay for swipes presumably are otherwise law-abiding citizens, and would be deterred by the thought of getting a summons.
CG
It's only a problem if you don't have a MC with you that contains at least one fare. Easy to avoid with a little planning, Moreover, there's at least one staffed booth open at just about every station, as things stand now.
Arresting some old lady for paying for a swipe, especially if she's unaware of the law, or if exigent conditions exist, in no way solves the problem, and only serves to create a PR nightmare. Gotta "smoke em out" at the source...
I answered that it is, and that I've seen subway posters saying so.
Right, I recall now.
In public transit everywhere, there is trend away from just buying one fare at the time of travel. And the places that still do it are in Third World, where labour is cheap....
He probably was back out and plying his "trade" within a few hours.
Nice...
Maybe now they will see that being a fan isn't so bad after all...
What is so unbelievable about this? Any cop (or TA employee) who knows the law will tell you the exact same thing because...that's what the law says!
"DO WHAT I SAY,NOT AS I DO!".....
That whats so unbelievable about it.
I hate the Parks Dept volunteers that boss people around for feeding the birds just so they can show they have some power. I'd go into greater detail of a story, but I'll save it for a more appropriate time.
-Broadway Buffer
How's that for your tax money in the garbage cuz of some volunteering idiots. By any chance are u just sore, cuz u were one of those volunteers and know what I'm taking about. :-) Keep volunteering well, cuz I'd love to send all those corrupt ones down in a 1960 Buick La Saber and let them sell pickles on Orchard St!
People who feed birds are good. The ones that try to stop them...well, I hope they like pickles and that no birds try to eat them.
-Broadway Buffer
BTW. My mother does not hate birds or animals. She is also a volunteer wildlife rehabilitator. She frequently deals with birds whom have clogged crops due to having been fed foods that expand or harden inside of the birds. BTW. My mother is paid for neither of these acts of goodwill.
So Shut up with your idiotic rants. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Rice is often the worst of them, Plugs the crop right up.
I do know what I'm talking about on this issuse, I ranted because I was showing u that there are bad volunteers.
Any money being made on the pickle sales yet?
LOL, just playin :-) Got it from Mike Savage. He has some good ones, u have to say that.
Anyway, sorry for the ranting.
-Broadway Buffer
Rail buffs are transit allies. They should be treated as such.
Because it was meantioned on TV a good few times in the past and it was proven true already.
And a unlimited card is good every 18? minutes, so if you swipe one in, YOU HAVE TO WAIT. -_-
Columbus Circle is easy to reach. Why not pay a visit to Transit District 1? I' sure Captain Giantasio and his officers would be happy to share some knowledge with you.
Their phone number, by the way, is 212-258-2840.
Then come back and post here what you've learned.
:)
And front, too. :0)
You're about to start a creative war with Selkirk.
Great thread, great posts!
It's no wonder I don't come on this site that often. Too many conservative racist who uses this hobby to attack victims of society.
That's a good thing, continue that trend.
U should have never come back! Only one more liberal progressive to deal with and get us off topic with Bush conservative bashing!
-Broadway Buffer
McCain is the only one whom is of any fame.
In McCains ideal world Amtrak would get no subsidies, but neither would any other mode of transportation, so i think that amtrak would likely survive,
-Broadway Buffer
KIck backs, Enron....the MTA ...
Please,spare me the bullshit....about the governing bodies...
-Broadway Buffer
Read your US History.
Sometimes, evolving is a good thing.
James Madison, John Jay, and Alex Hamilton opinions are meaningless nowadays. This is in the age of terrorism and therefore they're stuff no longer counts. They were different from present day politicians. They actually cared about the people. Please live in the present and quote people still living.
-Broadway Buffer
Um, the British employed various tactics during the Revolution that were very similar to modern day terrorism - i.e., attacks on purely civilian targets.
All the issues of individual civil liberties vs. collective security of the nation existed back then too. The Alien and Sedition Acts were early attempts to tilt in favor of security at the expense of liberty.
-Broadway Buffer
I'd trust my representation with a career politician who knows what he or she is doing over the average Joe off the street any day. Not all politicians are corrupt, and you'd be ridiculously naive and unfair to assume so.
-Broadway Buffer
In other words, our politicians should vote for gay marriage regardless of public opinion, provided that they feel it's in the best interest of the nation. Considering our standard of majority rule, minority rights, many politicians feel that gay marriage/civil unions are in the nation's best interest. If politicians were supposed to vote depending solely on public opinion, the system would be even more corrupted. If it was supposed to work this way, we would make all the laws through referendums.
And terror attacks have nothing to do with our domestic agenda regarding gay rights.
http://www.nycrail.com/amb/otbrd/20-2.html
A lot of these folks got their start with petty thievery, shoplifting, token sucking and now swiping.
I'm sure they appreciate your encouragement. It's good to have friends...:0)
All of these were taken on the platform of a certain subway station, while I was bored out of my mind and took a break from playing dope wars to take thses pics. I won't say when/where because I have reason to believe that I was about 4 feet from a TA person/subtalker with a TA radio.
:)
ROFLMAO !!...........that's a good one !
Bill "Newkirk"
**BUT THERE IS NO SUCH LAW IN EFFECT YET**
The proposed ban is on photography taken while on NYCT property. Stand on the sidewalk and take pictures of anything you like.
But he was wondering whether those pictures would be illegal in the future because they are pictures FROM MTA property OF non-MTA property, not vice versa.
My reading of the proposed rules is that the pictures would in fact be against the rules.
Not sure how someone ranks the R as near to bottom of " Regularity of Service " while the rat-trap G train ranks number one. What constitutes " Regularity of Service " to the individual(s) who put this report together? Are points taken away because the R is a shuttle at night? I think that R service is pretty frequent during normal hours. I won't go check the schedules, but I have never waited as long for a R as I have waited for the G.
The R is the dirtiest in the system? Do not buy it. Ever ride the A? Or the supposedly cleanest E?
I think that those who wrote this report simply do not know the subway system and do not ride it.
A lot of people whine about the R because it is a local. But if you don't like locals, don't take the local.
The R is dependable for the most part, one with newer cars, and it gets the job done.
Now, the Lex on the other hand: unfortunately, since 2001 I've been working in the east side of midtown and have gotten to know the 4, 5 and 6 lines all too well. They are severely and painfully overcrowded. The fault for this is that of those who did not build the Second Avenue Subway years ago, but the fact remains that these are extemely painful trains to ride due to severe overcrowding. This goes beyond a mere " chance of getting a seat issue ". The Lex lines are Abu Ghraibs on wheels, and worthy of a major human rights investigation.
I find these Lex lines susceptible to major delays on a regular basis. Often there will be a supercrowded 6 train followed by two uncrowded ones, or that three 6 roll into Grand Central but no express trains, so that the next 4/5 is supercrowded. This is not an occasional problem, it is an every single day problem.
The idea that the 6 is the best overall is so laughable that it cannot be seriously discussed. I shall presume that the authors of this report want to demonstrate their sense of humor.
Long live the R. Down with the Lex.
Also, the R is okay in my book. It's headways are short and runs R-46 and is rarely overcrowded. New Yorkers' craziness about expresses which take a few minutes less is driving this negative comment. A few weeks ago, I was at Dekalb and let an uptown R go by. An uptown Q came in within aminute and I took it to 14thSt. I waited there and the same R showed up within 2 minutes.That's not so bad, is it?
W Broadway Local
W 00:00
R 00:08
W 00:10
R 00:18
W 00:20
R 00:28
...
Note that in this example both trains come every 10 minutes. But if your platform-arrival time is random, you'll see a W first 80% of the time!
I'm not saying this is the cause of your observation, but it should be kept in mind. Have you checked the schedules?
Also, if you arrive at the platform the same time every day, you might also see one train come first more often. I noticed this circa 1994 when I used to wait for an A or an E at 34th st at about 0615 (IIRC) to go to 50th. I noticed that the A train came with surprisingly regularity within a minute or two of the same time. So if you arrive at the platform with similar regularity, you might also see this "bias".
Then again, those weekend waits at Lawrence or Court can be killer...
That's because so many people are turned off by it. The waits are too long and it is too slow. The R passes through downtown Brooklyn, lower Manhattan, Union Square, and midtown. There's definitely a market. However, since the R doesn't perform as well as is should, people will only take the R to the nearest express stop where they'll transfer for the express.
And R ridership levels are good, even at night. The fact that the trains are not stuffed to bursting as is the accursed Lex is hardly a flaw.
OTOH, at least one train has to make the local stops, unless those stations are going to be closed completely down in the off-hours (and the Manhattan Bridge magically developed the capacity to handle the R in addition to the N and Q).
FWIW, I just take the R to the next express stop, whence I switch to an N, a Q, or a Queens Blvd express. If it wasn't there to make the local stop I need, though, I'd be pissed.
The Manhattan Bridge could handle all three lines in the middle of the night, even if the R ran, which it doesn't. But it doesn't because then those 6 stations on the tunnel route would have no service.
What I would love to see,is Coney Island yard/shop take over the G route from Jamaica...That way we will see more service,and more trains...Keep your stinkin R46 CARS....Give us whatever C.I. has and I bet everybody will be happy.
The G is at the mercy of the MTA,Queens politicians and so on.
Crappy service is whats to be expected from people in charge,who don't give a damn about a line that serves Brooklyn as a primary and not Manhattan...
If we can get people to see this line as a major sorce of transportation for the NABS it serves,rather than an annoyance to their commute,maybe it might see better service.
But I guess that doesn't matter much compared to what the LEX goes thru...Guess they should be rippin the MTA a new one for not building the Second ave subway years ago when the money was availible..
In any case,I AVOID the LEX at rush hours...so it's all good for me.
And which line isn't very heavily loaded at some point along its route? The only candidates I can think of are the J and the M.
Wow, where do I begin? THE R SUCKS AND IF I HAD A CHOICE BETWEEN TAKING THAT AND THE 6 I'D NEVER HESITATE TO TAKE THE 6 (AND MAYBE ANY OF THE LEX LINES BECAUSE WHILE THEYRE OVERCROWDED THEY SHOW UP). You're wrong when you say that if you dont like the R because it's a local then don't take the local. People take the local but not the R because it doesnt show up as frequently as a train should. The R, however, comes with a ratio of two to one when compared to W trains. Why do you think they kept the W after the Manhattan Bridge Project was completed? To supplement an inconsistent line such as the R in Manhattan.
And to say that the 6 is a laughter is the most bs I've ever heard because the 6 is what it is it may not be the best in the system but it is pretty damn good and way better than the R.
So in short, NEVER COMPARE THE R TO THE LEX BECAUSE ID PICK THE LEX ANYDAY AND IF YOU COMPARE THE IMPORTANCE OF THE LEX TO THE R YOU WOULD SEE WHY THE LEX IS OVERCROWDED BECAUSE PEOPLE RIDE IT. YOU CANT SAY PEOPLE RIDE THE R BECAUSE IN MANHATTAN PEOPLE DONT WAIT FOR THE R THEY TAKE WHAT COMES FIRST AND THATS THE W AND IF IT WASNT FOR THE FACT THAT IT IS THE ONLY LINE CONNECTING BROADWAY TO QUEENS BLVD PEOPLE WOULDNT NEED IT. FACE IT, YOU SHOULD BE HAPPY THE R IS AS LONG AS IT IS BECAUSE THE TRANSIT SYSTEM CAN DO FINE IF THE R IS MADE A SHUTTLE ALL TIMES ONLY IN BAY RIDGE BAY RIDGE AND THE W IS EXTENDED TO BKLYN and QUEENS BLVD DURING RUSH HOURS.
I KNOW THIS WILL BRING A LOT OF CRITICISM BUT IM ANGRY NEVER BRING DOWN THE 6 YOU CAN BASH THE LEX ALL YOU WANT BUT SAYING THAT THE 6 IS A LAUGHTER(YOU CANT OPERATE THE LEX WITHOUT THE 6)....THATS LIKE SAYING THAT THE WORLD CANT LIVE WITHOUT THE R TO ME...AND THAT IS TOTALLY POSSIBLE
you wrote that out to be one long run on sentence in some areas...and caps aren't needed....
we feel u....
I say this about the "N" because all the sections that run alone, it is very slow.... not until it gets into 36th Street, it starts to speed up. I just don't understand the logic. I just think the MTA has an ax to grid with the N train.
W Broadway Local
I LOVE YOU But you are somewhat incorrect. The "W" was kept in service because Astorians demanded it, because the "N" not the "R" was very inconsistant.
GO GO W
And also, are u in favor of the W going to Sea Beach Line with a split terminal. 1/2 W's end at Whithall 1/2 end at 86 St or Kings Hwy?
D.W.E.L. well
W Bwy Lcl
Whitehall St. or Astoria
D.W.E.L. well
GO GO W BROADWAY LOCAL
The "W" was kept because of how bad the "N" service was, which serves the Astoria community. And, often times I was using the "R" because even though it RARELY came, at least I had an option. The "N" was NEVER there, so usually the option wasn't really available to me.
W Broadway Local
The idea behind W service is that Astoria requires more tph than the N can provide and that Broadway local service needs more tph than the R can provide. The idea behind terminating the line at Whitehall St is that less trains should go thru DeKalb Av.
Whether the plan for Broadway is the best possible is another issue. But W service is consistent with the plan for Broadway and as long as that's the plan the W must be kept.
The 6 may be king for now but it could very well end up at the bottom if things are as they are now. And hell yeah the Eastside cannot rely on the Lexington lines forever, the SAS must be built!
Off the topic, if you felt slighted, you should see the rating that the "N" receive and it doesn't seem to have change, enough though it was put on the bridge. One wonders who could be behind this.
As for the "W", did we get a good rating? I hope so, because with this important line, people would be waiting a lot longer. Unlike before, you had to wait, wait, wait... and when you think nothing is coming, and "R" is staring at your face. If you were a "N" rider, you were wondering what the hell is going on, after seeing one after another "R's" entering the station. And then finally, the "N" comes in... tooooooo crowded to enter.. so you say, since I waited this long, I guess it wouldn't manner if I waited a few minutes more.. You then realize that a few minutes turned into 5,10,15 minutes.. And you began to dream that the "N" was actually there, and you were on it, going somewhere, like home.
W Broadway Local
you're an idiot, blow a goat.
I had an incident two weeks ago where I took the R train from Rector St to Pacific (to switch to the D..anyway..). From Rector all the way to Pacific, there was an R train in every station (maybe except one) going the opposite direction. Also, the R is clean and quiet. I walk from the PABT, through the dinge of Times Sq to get to the R train (or the W, whichever comes). The E train, which is what my other main option is, is usually dirty, even @ Chambers St where people come on to clean it, it is always crowded and the speakers don't always work.
Wait assessment, most likely.
The R is dependable for the most part, one with newer cars, and it gets the job done.
I'm not sure what the age of the car has to do with anything, but the newest car on the R is 25 years older than the oldest car on the 6.
W Broadway Local
They should require that private citizens be allowd to search all police packages at will. No warrant required!
Why are you posting this now? Don't make me bring out the dancing lock...
AND WHY THE CAPS? YOU JUST FOUND OUT ABOUT THIS?
On July 13, the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals vacated a decision by the Surface Transportation Board that had granted the NYC Economic Development Corporation’s application for the “adverse abandonment” of Cross Harbor’s rail operations at the Bush Terminal Yards in the Red Hook section of Brooklyn — the case was essentially a move by the city to toss the small railroad/barge operation out of its NYC base of operations...
The thumb nail is that nycDOT wants that RxR yard for development plans.
They have already locked them out of their building. Once they deprive them of the float at 60th they'll either make a deal with NY & Atl to use the one at 65th or be closed out of NY.
NYCDot gets to back to the legal drawing board.
Current score: NYCH 1, NYCDot 0
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
I guess it the only time a R9 went to Staten Island...
Wrong:
-Chris
No
-Chris
SIRT's cars, while similar, could not multiple with AMUE equipment. since SIRT was owned by the B&O, different brake systems.
And now she sits in Staten Island, where Arnines feared to tread !
Bill "Newkirk"
SmarTrip supply low as sales soar
Since Metro shifted to a SmarTrip parking payment system on June 28, sales of the plastic rechargeable farecard that can be used to pay for parking, Metrorail rides and most Metrobus rides have soared. As a result officials believe they will run out of the cards before a new supply arrives.
Prior to the start of the SmarTrip-only parking payment program, sales of the cards averaged 8,000 per month (between May 1999 and May 2004). Since June 28, customers have been purchasing them at a rate of between 3,000 and 4,000 per day, most directly from new SmarTrip vending machines that are located inside 30 Metrorail stations.
Between June 28 and July 20, 65,000 SmarTrip cards were sold. Seventy-five percent were sold from the new SmarTrip vending machines; 14 percent from Metro sales offices; 5 percent through local commuter stores; 4 percent via the internet; and the remaining 2 percent via other means.
SmarTrip sales have been so high that Metro has sold in the last three weeks what it had been selling during an average eight-month period since SmarTrip was launched five years ago.
There is only one manufacturer of the SmarTrip chip that is in the cards and another manufacturer responsible for embedding those chips in the SmarTrip cards. Metro expects to receive 10,000 new SmarTrip cards by the end of the month and another 62,000 by mid-August. New orders are in the works for up to one half million cards. The high volume of SmarTrip sales can be attributed to several initiatives coming together at once. They include:
• the shift to SmarTrip-only parking payment program that was initiated on June 28;
• the installation of the SmarTrip vending machines inside 30 stations, making it easy and convenient for all customers (not just those who are parking in Metro facilities) to pick up a SmarTrip card;
• the continued installation of SmarTrip fareboxes on all Metrobuses (all but one garage of buses has the new fareboxes and those buses are expected to be fully equipped in approximately two weeks) which has created a demand for SmarTrip cards by Metrobus users;
• a surprising pre-September 11th resurgence of tourists to the region, which has resulted in an elevated purchase of SmarTrip cards by one-time-only users of the cards; and
• unprecedented high Metrorail ridership that saw June’s average weekday ridership top 700,000 for the first time and July’s average weekday ridership counts that have not yet seen the traditional dip that results from commuters who take a summer vacation.
In an effort to conserve SmarTrip cards until the next shipment arrives at Metro, officials have decided to temporarily halt internet sales of the cards, temporarily cease sales promotions targeted to non-parkers who ride the rail system; and delay an upcoming promotion of SmarTrip to bus customers that was designed to coincide with the installation of the SmarTrip fareboxes on buses.
When Metro runs out of SmarTrip cards, customers will be able to pay the parking fee by purchasing paper farecards in the exact amount of the fee. Parkers will then hand the paper farecard to the parking customer assistance representative who would be stationed at the lot’s exit gates. Customers who have SmarTrip cards will still be able to use them for quick exit.
The shift to the SmarTrip parking system has been extremely successful. Metro officials were lenient in allowing exceptions during the first week of conversion to the SmarTrip-only parking system, allowing for the transition period, however since then, less than 1 percent of daily parkers are given an exception to exit the parking lots.
Most of the approximately 250 parking-related calls to Metro’s customer service center since June 28 have been questions about how to get receipts; their wanting to know how to obtain a SmarTrip card; recommendations for improved signage; and complaints from one-time or occasional parkers who do not want to purchase a SmarTrip card. Metro has also received complaints about how Metro’s SmarTrip contractor has been experiencing difficulty keeping up with the high call volume since the launch of SmarTrip-only parking on June 28. The vendor has hired additional staff to handle the increase in calls.
If the LIRR wanted to get rid of that part of the Rock Park line that required use of the trestle in favor of the land-based line through Valley Stream, why didn't it just do so? Why did it also abandon the Rock Park spur itself and all of the stations until Far Rockaway? It seems to me that the company could have continued to run trains via the land line past Far Rockaway all the way to Rock Park.
It just so happens that after 1950 the LIRR indeed provided service as you suggested to Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park using the long route through Valley Stream and the Five Towns. Of course, for anyone boarding at Wavecrest or further west even the trip to Penn or Brooklyn would consume between 60 and 90 minutes. LIRR service continued this way until Oct. 1955, when LIRR service west of Far Rockaway was discontinued permanently. For the next nine months till July 1956 the LIRR viaduct was converted to subway operation and the trestle rebuilt using concrete to prevent fires. The interesting detail here is that after 1952 NYC actually owned the entire LIRR Rockaway Beach branch in Queens, so LIRR service between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park was provided under a leaseback agreement. The truncated service from Penn Station to Ozone Park actually lasted until 1962 under the same leaseback agreement.
Stu v.
New York Division, ERA, Inc.
PO Box 3001
New York NY 10008-3001
--Mark
-Robert King
Ok, ok, so I'm kidding. Interviews with onsite/unnamed sources reveal that it's going to happen for a month and it's bullshit, because it's going to cause serious boarding delays (surprise) and won't work in the long run. I was asked if I was with the railroad (haha) and I replied that I was simply a railfan, so I got more candid commments. As always, me being me, I predicted that once the convention is over, the [flowering][vagina] that we call president will be safe at home and all the 'heightened awareness' will be relegated to the back burner once again.
Anyway, here's the SLE spiel:
I also took the time to update my album of New Haven photos
Enjoy, and remember, the next train you board could be bugged. Or, uhh...dogged.
Your pal,
Fred
Thanks Fred!
Enjoy
Your pal,
Zippy
Swipers: the squeegie guy of the 21st century. Where's Guiliani when you need him?
Share your photos with a tip line or your local transit police district office. You never know when you might get a cash reward for something...
But according to Jersey Mike, the MVMs die because of poor maintenance and not because they are helped along.
You forgot those "token suckers", that really sucked the lifeblood of NYCT's revenue in the 80's and early 90's. Now that tokens are a thing of the past, the Metrocard swipers are what they are today.
Just for my sake and everyone else, be very, very careful. Again, thank you and I applaud you that you are doing the right thing I have endorsed recently.
I was standing on one of the steps leading out of the station when I took his pic, and I will definately exercise extra care when around these guys if I decide to do this again.
And last, take only 1 to 2 pictures, DON'T stand there for more than 5 minutes. Better yet, make it look like you are talking to someone on your cell phone. When you "say bye" to "the person", point the camera at the offender real quick and take your picture. The swiper at 175th st really thought I was cursing someone out over the phone, and I laughed it off.
The whole thing took about 30 seconds, from profile change to exit.
Shall we say CHECKMATE to the MTA board if we are successful with the press?
BTW, the 23rd Street station is in Transit District 4. The police station location and phone/fax number can be found by looking at www.nyc.us/html/nypd. Select the precinct or transit district from a drop-down scroll list.
so im out of it
what is a swiper?
Since the Metrocard can be used again at the same station after 18 minutes, in theory such people could earn $2 every 18 minutes.
Metrocard rules specifically say unlimited cards are for use by one person only. You can't even loan them to your spouse in theory. You certainly aren't allowed to collect money for their use.
There is no such prohibition. Unlimited Ride MetroCard - Conditions of Use:
Cannot be used again at the same subway station or the same bus route for 18 minutes. The acceptance or solicitation of compensation for use of an Unlimited Ride MetroCard by other than authorized agents of MTA New York City Transit is prohibited.
Use of Unlimited Ride MetroCard is subject to MTA New York City Transit tariff.
You can't receive compensation for letting another person use your card. But, you can certainly give it to a family member when you're not using it.
We know that, but we cant hand them to a spouce, etc... on the SAME TRIP.
Robert
You have to have a balance between preventing crime, and causing inconvenience to the legitimate paying customer. Someone buying an unlimited is likely to be making lots of journeys - that's the point of the thing. So you have to think - what's the shortest time in which the card might be legitimately used twice at the same station, without having been used anywhere else in between? You enter the subway, make a trip, leave the subway, do something quickly at the other end (deliver a letter, say), walk back to your starting station, and then leave again from that station. Half an hour minimum?
In fact, the most likely reason for *legitimately* swiping twice in quick succession is that you entered a station, realised you'd made a mistake (left something behind, say), left the station again, and then you come back to continue your journey. For strangers in NYC, the most likely mistake to make would be entering the wrong side of a station that hasn't got a crossover. My wife and I got locked out for 18 minutes that way once.
Why the MTA chose 18 minutes I am not sure, but the idea is clear - they wanted to stop two or more people travelling together from all travelling on one unlimited, handing it back after each of them had gone through the turnstile.
.3 hours.
so if i swipe in at 23rd street on the Lex on the uptown side, and then realize that i meant to go downtown, i still have to wait 18 minutes???
Your other option is to just get on the train in the wrong direction and then transfer back at the first opportunity. In some to many circumstances that may be quicker than waiting out the 18 minutes.
Probably because it's approximately equal to the maximum overnight headway on most lines - that way, if one person swipes in and hands the card off to someone else, he'll have to wait for at least one full headway between trains in order to use the card again.
(Otherwise you could imagine the first person swiping in on the unlimited, and the next guy swipes in on the same card as soon as it becomes usable, and repeat as necessary for all members of the party, and if the train comes in they switch to Plan B and whip out their pay-per-rides.) If the cooling-off period is 18 minutes this scheme almost certainly isn't going to work unless you're willing to let trains pass by while waiting.
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
All NYC public schools are on the same master calendar. The master calendars are here. Students are warned on the last day before winter holiday break that using their student Metrocard during the break will result in a fine, something around $60, if I recall.
I don't know what the private schools do.
Dwight
But as for express service between Eastern Parkway and Myrtle/Broadway, they should build a single track line over Jamaica Avenue between just north of Alabama Avenue and Cypress Hills, and have express trains run in that "space for a third track" on the rest of the Jamaica Line, and then merge with the existing tracks where the connection to the middle track at 111th Street is.
It would run as follows:
Marcy Avenue
Myrtle/Broadway
Eastern Parkway
(via Jamaica El)
Cypress Hills
Woodhaven Boulevard
121st Street
Sutphin Boulevard
Jamaica Center
Newbies....
Anyway, There would be no need for any express station on the new one track express el over jamaica Ave between Broadway Junction and Cypress Hills. At Cypress Hills, the express track should rise over the Manhattan local track and decline through the station to the grade of the rest of the el, as to not have an at grade crossing west of Cypress hills - certainly no need to have expresses stop at a station that is the least used station on the J, and almost the system. Possibly, just possibly, do a raised express station at Woodhaven. But certainly not necessary at 121st St, the third least used station on the line.
Anyway, here's the stats for 2003 for the J line:
Rank in System - station - lines - fare counts for 2003
206. Myrtle Ave (J,M,Z) 1,807,114
214. Flushing Ave (J,M) 1,763,948
229. Marcy Ave (J,M,Z) 1,667,630 (skewed lower because the station was closed on and off for reconstruction during 2003 For the record, in normal circumstances it ranks just above Myrtle Ave in rank and count in normal years).
279. Crescent St (J,Z) 1,282,121
296. Halsey St (J) 1,187,842
298. Gates Ave (J,Z) 1,179,022
323. 85 St-Forest Pkwy (J) 1,009,608
327. 75 St-Elderts (J,Z) 982,298
328. Woodhaven Blvd (J,Z) 978,733
346. Lorimer St (J,M) 876,627
349. Norwood Ave (J,Z) 861,177
356. Kosciusko St (J) 808,385
357. Cleveland St (J)804,319
368. Hewes St (J.M) 725,563 (current stats show it higher than it used to be in 2002, but for 2003 remember Marcy was closed off and on for reconstruction, so 2003 is skewed).
375. 111 St (J) 687,681
376. Alabama Ave (J) 682,934
379. Van Siclen Ave (J,Z) 669,550
383. 104 St (J,Z) 627,813
386. Chauncey St (J,Z) 601,794
397. 121 St (J,Z) 525,808
407. Cypress Hills (J) 394,158
Gerry
I believe they also include out-of-system subway-to-subway transfers (at the handful of locations that they're permitted), but I may be wrong.
They don't include in-system subway-to-subway transfers, for obvious reasons.
Also why not just have the J run local all the way from Eastern Pkwy to Marcy and the Z running express? The M could run as the express from Myrtle to Marcy - this way the J would serve all stations 24/7 since the M{weekdays only}/Z{rush hours only} that are part time anyway
-imo
There's nothing wrong with the express track east of Myrtle, between Myrtle and Broadway Juction, no rebuilding necessary. It isn't used because of the skip-stop currently used on the line. It would make either the J or Z slightly faster than the other. This can be a particular problem in the outbound direction. You would have more of the "two Z's in a row, or two J's in a row, as opposed to alternating J and Z for the whole route.
-RJM
Was your M going to Bay Parkway or to Chambers? If the latter, then the J should have waited (in fact, it arguably should have waited long enough for the M to slip in front at Marcy, so passengers at local stops could get to Fulton and Broad without waiting 8-9 minutes to connect to the next J). If the former, then the C/R appears to have done what makes sense.
Is that English?
David
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
If they want to make the system work for everyone, people should propose this option, even if it does not include the single track on Jamaica Avenue. The infrastructure is already in place partly, and can be duoable of a little less of the cost.
W Broadway Local
I have said myself manytimes that service can be improved by rerouting one of the lines[JMZ]to Middtown...
express trackage along Jamaica Ave placed on concrete Elevated tracks will cut noise....so the nabs don't have to hear it...
And where do you plan on terminating one of those lines if they went to Midtown?
-Broadway Buffer
That'll get you to Midtown.
Actually, we've been waiting since the 20's for the 2nd Ave. subway. That's how far back the City wanted this.
Bill "Newkirk"
Speaking of the E train, and others on the Queens Boulevard subway, this has received capital upgrades since WWII. Just because the SAS remains unbuilt, this doesn't mean that nothing was done. The 63rd St. tunnel was built, in part, to increase capacity on the Queens Boulevard subway. Archer Avenue was built to increase utility. There will come a time when no more capacity will be able to be added to Queens Boulevard.
The J/M/Z contribute to overcrowding on Queens Blvd. in two ways. The first is the backtracking. The second reason is all of the people who take buses to Queens Blvd trains instead of the J/M/Z.
All the talk about improving this 19th Century El will only offer incremental improvements. It is ancient, and archaic, and it needs to go.
Will the MTA get right on this and replace it? No. The existing capital projects need to be executed first. Then we'll see.
1. Extend skip-stop service until midday to Manhattan, and in PM hours to Jamaica, on both the J and Z.
2. Let the Z run express from Eastern Parkway to Essex Street during the same time frame.
As a regular rider on this train, I assure you that most of the passengers from Jamaica get off at Eastern Parkway to change to the A, C or L.
The TA present frame of mind is to throw their resorces into the boro of MANHATTAN[as far as new subways are concerned]...
Remember during the New routes Program of the late 60's?....
they wanted to TEAR DOWN THE JAMAICA EL AS FAR AS CRESENT ST....NOT REBUILD IT....
The point? As much as I love what they have done with the system over the last 20 years....They have forgotten the riders in the so called "low priority" nabs....the work done to the Eastern Division wasn't done because they like us....the new cars aren't there because they like us...it was something they "HAD"to do...
either that,or watch it fall to the streets...
Someone needs to wake those jerks up,and remind them that NYC is not just Manhattan.
WE in the other boro's need new lines also....more than the West side of Manhattan,to serve a stadium that we don't even need.
As fo anything new getting built in Brooklyn, or els being replaced? I think the Fulton Subway replacing the Fulton St El is the last one you will see, at least in our lifetimes....
They can't even get a really necessary one built in Manhattan. There's not even a glimmer of hope for Queens and Brooklyn.
But as we all know,the MTA's will never make any attempt to ease our pains,well, the outer boro's,anyway..
The point is,they don't respect us,and told us in ways and actions...
Ron would have us believe that the MTA has done much for our city by rebuilding the system...But the real truth is this...
Did they have much of a choice? NO! Most of NY/NJ and Conn uses the subway/bus/commuter rail system...if the system stop running today or tommorow,you would see hell on earth...for real.
Most of Brooklyn's trackage are from another age,and is a reflection of that time....Look at the Sea Beach lines right of way,the West End EL...Rodgers Juction,the Livonia Ave El...I can go on and on...but you get the point...
The MTA has a choke hold on the people of NY.They know it...and it is WRONG.We can have a world class system,if we force them to see it the way we do.... New management,new lines,new stations and new modes of transportation will help rescue out failing transit system
and draw new passengers to it....
If there isn't any change,God help us....
I never wrote, or implied, that the MTA would do this anytime soon. In fact I wrote, "Will the MTA get right on this and replace it? No. The existing capital projects need to be executed first. Then we'll see." What time frame am I implying? After the ESA and SAS get done, it will be time to figure out how to extend the SAS to the Bronx, and the other way (probably Brooklyn, but it could be Staten Island.) Also, with Bloomberg Administration's plans for the Far West Side to get 28 million square feet of new office space, we could see subway expansion for that area beyond the 7 train.
So we're talking 2020 at the earliest before such a plan can be seriously proposed. Can it happen? Of course, but not if people are going to whine and complain about how the MTA doesn't serve the outer boroughs. The development of New York's subway's have historically been part of symbiotic relationship with the real estate industry. As soon as people grasp that, all things are possible.
We can get into the "meat" of it all..by looking at it from the Riders point of view...
And now that the Broadway corridor continues to have so much reconstruction and new construction along it, the population will continue to rise significantly. At Lorimer and Hewes St alone, there is a building boom. In the last year there are countless 10+ story apartment buildings being built on the south side of the el.
You can't recognize the area from just 5 years ago (in 10 years it will be totally unrecognizable if the current trend continues). A drive on any side street north of the el between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway will show an uncountable amount of new two and three story homes, and that's just the empty lots. Many of the existing buildings are being refurbished too.
The TA will no longer be able to ignore the corridor, as it's growth is going to go fast. The L is currently the fastest growning line with a 5.5% increase in passengers a year for the last 8 years. Watch for the J to also increase in passanger loads in the coming years.
The families have returned,business has returned...
LIFE has returned...the TA's refusal to reconize this with service improvements is a slap in the face to everyone involved....that being all of use...
And where do you plan on terminating one of those lines if they went to Midtown?
This has been discussed many times. The V terminates at 2nd Ave, so combining the V with a route that crosses the WB works very nicely.
Other suggestions include swapping the C and V routes south of W 4th (the switches exist to do this) and then combining the C (which is already 8 cars) with a WB route.
David
(a) The number of people who transfer from the JMZ to the F at Essex indicates considerable demand.
(b) Merging the C or V with a WB train doesn't require a new terminal.
(c) Similarly, such a merge doesn't take a single additional piece of rolling stock. It could even reduce rolling stock, since 2nd Ave is closer to the WB than Broad St is.
There are still plenty of reasons why it might not be a good idea, but these aren't the reasons.
(b) My comment was more along the lines of, "OK, now where does the route end?" than, "There's no space anywhere."
(c) The poster wanted the route to go to midtown Manhattan. Second Avenue-Houston Street is nowhere near midtown. Terminating at Second Avenue, assuming it could be done, wouldn't do much good for anybody -- it's not much of a destination in itself, and the people who are headed for lower Manhattan get inconvenienced.
David
One alternative I've suggested, which would be much more complicated but potentially more beneficial, is to send the V to Canarsie. The L would get cut back to Broadway Junction, with more frequent service, since the current Canarsie terminal appears to be the bottleneck on the line. The J/Z would extend its express run to Broadway Junction but would otherwise be unchanged. The M would run express between Myrtle and Marcy. Jamaica and Myrtle line passengers would have a slightly faster trip into Manhattan, with easier transfers to 6th Avenue service. Outer L passengers would have less frequent service, but it would go to Midtown. Inner L passengers would have more frequent service. Broadway el passengers wouldn't lose any service, and their trains would go to Midtown. In other words, most passengers would benefit. My back-of-the-envelope calculations indicate that the car requirement would remain nearly constant (I came up with an increase of one train's worth, but my numbers weren't exact). The big question is whether the interlocking at Myrtle would be able to handle so much traffic.
"Back in the day" means little today. Operating practices have changed.
My question is though why would the M be made express between Myrtle and Marcy. (I don't have a problem with that, but just wonder what your reasonings are). If the am was local, passengers at Flushing to Hewes would have both downtown and midtown service. I know in the historical service patterns, the M also ran express in that segment though. To me that would seem "harder" on the interlocking at Myrtle, but maybe there is something I am missing, as maybe it makes it simpiler for some reason. Again, I wouldn't have a problem either way.
No strong reason: just the desire to minimize trip times and car requirements while adequately serving everyone. The southbound M express would probably use the local track to avoid some of the mess at Myrtle. If a lot of local passengers are bound for lower Manhattan, or the V alone can't handle the load, then the M could run local along with the V.
It would not involve major shifts in services throughout the system, making it a smooth transition.
I disagree here. The shifts would be quite major. But they'd also benefit a lot of people, I think.
(c) The poster wanted the route to go to midtown Manhattan. Second Avenue-Houston Street is nowhere near midtown. Terminating at Second Avenue, assuming it could be done, wouldn't do much good for anybody -- it's not much of a destination in itself, and the people who are headed for lower Manhattan get inconvenienced.
(a) Very crowded connecting stairs during whenever a train comes into one platform. it may not be enough crowding to justify a WB to midtown train, but it is considerable traffic.
(c) A WB train can't actually terminate at 2nd Ave. I thought you were familiar enough with what gets posted here to realize that I meant: take a train that would otherwise have 2nd Ave as its southern terminus, and connect it with an existing WB route instead.
David
If by some chance it's not, either slightly decrease J/Z headways, or add a Bay Parkway to Essex St "M" train rush hours. The M would be abolished anyway if the V was extended to Metro Ave, so the M would be a surplus letter, not to mention that West End people are already used to it.
Exactly. In addition, it would cut down on the amount of people transferring off the M at Wyckoff for the L. The reason people do this is because those people also want midtown. The reason they get off at Wyckoff (I did this myself) for the L is because the M-L-and some midtown transfer train is a shorter route than the M all the way downtown to a Nassau transfer just to go back up. If the M-V went directly to midtown from Essex, it would be faster than the three train and wait times for the M-L-midtown train scenario.
So yes there is CONSIDERABLE demand for this Exodus from the M at Wyckoff and again at Essex shows there is considerable demand for this.
Public relations is the difference. "V" has a nice ring to it, but if you go back to "KK", you have history. I believe that we should respect our history, while seeking to improve it. How do you make the old "KK" one better? Call it the "KKK." I think that most people will understand the desire to improve on our subway history, and maybe, just maybe, a "KKK" route will get some news coverage.
David
David
A direct Metro to midtown train will keep many of those riders on the M too, as opposed to transferring to the L. As it stands, it is faster to take the M to the L to midtown connections than to take the M all the way downtown just to go back up again.
If there was a direct midtown train from Metro, that route would be faster, and more people wouldn't get off for the already overtaxed L line.
Those aren't the criteria NYCT uses in other places when it decides that it's worth splintering lines to give more people a direct ride to their destination.
After all, the system could perfectly well handle all of the following:
- All Flatbush trains going to the W side of Manhattan
- All 4th Ave expresses going over the S side of the MB and all Brighton trains going over the N side
- All 6th Ave trains going to the Concourse and all 8th Ave staying in Manhattan (oh, never mind, they already do that).
Anyway, there may be very good logistical reasons for not sending any WB trains to midtown, but it's far from being a pointless idea. There's plenty of evidence that M trains to midtown would be more crowded than M trains to 4th Ave in Brooklyn.
The only problem with that,there aren't enough burritocraps behind it,and without political backing[like the riders along the Queens Blvd subway route have]there is little chance anything will change.
Thats where the riders and VOTERS come in..
If you want change,you got to fight for it,no matter how much the MTA says they "can't do it"....
You scream loud enough...they do something...
David
Well if that's what you got from the horse's mouth, it's got a good chance of being true.
But the planner seems pretty unimaginative if one of the reasons he gave for not sending the M to midtown is that there would be no place to terminate it. If he hasn't got the imagination to consider combining the M and V, he's probably in the wrong job.
Like I said before...HOW can someone who doesn't like along the line,nor ride it's trains..[how about not riding trains at all] tell you what service you don't need?
These guys that plan the lines,don't know jack....
if they did..they would fix the A train problem,fix the JMZ problem,fix the 2/5 problem in Brooklyn and the Bronx...thru route some 6th ave trains to lower Manhattan....
STOP LIVING IN THE FREAKIN STONE AGE...and give the riders what they need....
Try balancing the needs of various constituencies against the system's structural design and the operating and capital funds available some time, instead of just going for what would help you as an individual rider.
David
I just don't understand him saying to you that one reason for not sending the M to Manhattan is there'd be no place to terminate it. That just suggests a failure of imagination. I suppose he may have ruled out merging the M with the V for other reasons, and therefore that possibility no longer occurs to him.
That makes it worse not better......
David
W Broadway Line
But in all seriousness, as I said elsewhere in this thread, anybody who really wants to know what NYCT's thinking is on this issue as of 2004 (I last asked two or three years ago, when the subject came up here on SubTalk) should write to NYCT and ask. Direct the inquiry to Operations Planning at 130 Livingston Street - 3rd Floor, Brooklyn NY 11201 (the inquiry can also be made through the feedback page at www.mta.info).
David
That's a very good point. Is the V train packed when it leaves, or enters Queens Boulevard? I often use it, south of 34th Street, and I never see it packed.
W Bwy
But if not, the proposal to juggle the locals at West 4th and send the C over the Williamsburg Bridge (and the V to Euclid, presumably) still stands, unless plans are in place to lengthen C trains.
My point is the V can be operated as a merged line with the M by adding the M lines trains and swiching rolling stock... While it's a toss up wither the V can operate along Queens Blvd with shortened trains...I HAVE PERSONALLY seen the V train operate with its center cars damn near emty and the end cars full....and the reverse happen too...!
So the line can be ran with 8 cars of 60ft[the way the N/EE/and GG trains did when it ran there....I doute there will be any overflow,as the train runs 9 TPH along it's length...
More so,why haven't they issued any type of survey,asking riders along the 6TH AVE,BROADWAY BROOKLYN JAMAICA,14TH ST,MYRTLE AVES and FULTON ST....if this is a service they would like to see running...?
Isn't this what they did for the service changes that happened this year?
There is more demand for this that people think, the amount of people getting off at Essex should show that, but they also must consider all the people getting off at Wyckoff for the L, or Broadway Junction for the A/C or L. Many of those people are also looking for midtown service that they aren't getting.
The main issue is ,how do we get the MTA to look past it's bias toward the Eastern Division...and look at the nuMbers at KEY STATIONS such as ESSEX/DELANCEY,MYRTLE/WYCKOFF,CANAL,WEST 4TH,BROADWAY JUNCTION,JAMAICA CENTER and other stations along the various lines affected...
Another fact that the MTA MAY NOT WANT this service is depending on the on the 14th street subway's ablity to carry run more trains once CBTC is up and running the line...
We have to voice our needs...if there's no voice you get nothing..
David
I don't know about more direct, but there are more effective ways. I would Find out who the leading real estate developers are along Brooklyn's Broadway. Make a rational case to them that this is good for the MTA and for the value of their real estate. Then get them to form an ad hoc coalition to enact this service. The MTA is more likely to listen to economic powers than to an average rider.
W Bwy
The Eastern Division operates 18 trains on the J/Z during rush hours and about 10 trains on the J during middays....there is plenty of room on the lines to run a branch to the 6th ave line...
Better use of the money could be used to extend the platform lengths of the "S" shuttle and so how connect it to the "A" "C" lines.
Also, they need to really reconsider building that connection b/t the M/R BMT and the A/F IND.
other connections includes connecting the uptown #6 with the B/D/F and V lines. and the 3/L at Livonia Avenue if it should be mentioned.
W Boadway Local
I want to go further by saying it should be the Rush Hour peak express. Other times, it should terminate at the Essex Street station where it would wait at the center track.
W Bwy
With that much service frequency, wouldn't it affect the J/M/ and Z lines?
W Bwy
I have often advocated this. One thing I didn't know but recently learned reading "line by line" is that this idea was considered and shot down 40 year ago. But a lot changes in 40 years.
Your "English" is so terrible, that I don't even bother to read your posts. If you take the time to post something, you probably want people to read it and give it respectful consideration. By posting the way you do, no one will take you, your ideas, nor your opinions seriously.
Please try again.
If you make it difficult for us to read your posts, you won't get the kinds of replies you want. Also, you won't get your ideas across. What's the point of posting if your audience can't understand what you say?
Please type more slowly; use punctuation, and capitalize the first letter in each sentence as well as proper nouns (names of people and places). We'll understand you better, and vice-versa.
Reconfiguring the route layout between Myrtle and Eastern Pkwy has no clear benefit, but actually a subtle drawback. I shall observe two key areas:
1) Time Savings: If there is any time saved by anyone, it is a matter of seconds. Currently, Z riders east of Eastern Pkwy skip two stations between Eastern Pkwy and Myrtle. So now they would skip two more. Figure you gain one minute and ten seconds (35 sec a stop) by doing this. Meanwhile, those 4 stations in the middle do not lose service frequency, but the J train has to take on 2 extra stations, making for an unbalanced load between the J and Z into Manhattan. Not only that, but making the J and Z run on different trackage, even for a short while, means you have to worry about merges. Currently, there is no merging problem at Myrtle in the AM, but you would make one between the J and Z. This is ignoring the fact that the Metropolitan bound M has to cross over the whole thing every once in a while. That 70 seconds we thought we saved? I'd say it will be lost almost if not completely in full at this switch.
2) Train loads: As I said above, you are taking two stations from the Z and giving them to the J, making for an unbalanced ratio of stations. You may think that J riders, upon reaching E Pkwy, will look across the platform for a Z, but soon they will realize that the time savings is little if anything, and just stay on their J, keeping things unbalanced.
W bwy
Those R-32s left a profound impression on me. Their sleek looks, blue doors and green backlit "57th St." side signs were permanently etched in my memory that day. Not to mention their smooth, swift riding characteristics. Budd really outdid themselves on these great cars.
-Dave