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Maybe they should issue a few tickets for littering I bet that would get people to stop.
Maybe they should just put the trash cans back!
While in Cape May I rode the Sea Shore Line excursion train from Cape May to Cape May Courthouse. It was a nice ride that used restored Budd DMUs (I think they were Budds, at least). I talked to someone else who was on the ride, who said there used to be trains that ran all the way from Philadelphia to Cape May using the Sea Shore Line's ROW for the last part of the trip.
This made me wonder how hard it would be to restore service on this route? Even if the service only operated during the summer, or even on the big weekends of Memorial Day, 4th of July, and Labor Day it would make getting to Cape May a lot easier. As it stands, I plan never to go there on a 3-day weekend again, but I'd go if there were a way to get there without spending 6 hours to go 92 miles. I wonder how many other people feel this way. If there are many, the Shore could be losing business for lack of a rail connection. (Not that there aren't plenty of people there spending money anyway, but a rail line could make Shore businesses even more profitable.)
Anyway, I'm curious as to where the route of the former service was, and if it shared any of the current Atantic City ROW. If so, restoring service might not be that hard logistially. Would it be hard politically? Is there any interest or will to restore Cape May service? Just wondering after being in car a lot longer than I wanted to be.
Mark
Yes, they were Budds.
The PRR and Reading ran competing service from Philly/Camden to Cape May until they merged their South Jersey operations into the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines during the Depression.
The P-RSL service used the current NJT Atlantic City line from Philly to Winslow Junction, then the existing Conrail Shared Assets to Tuckahoe, and finally the existing NJDOT track to Cape May. The CMSL leases their track from NJDOT. The CMSL is trying to get the money to rehab the track between Tuckahoe and Cape May Court House. They recently rehabbed the first five miles from Tuckahoe to Woodbine Junction for future service to three potential freight customers at Woodbine.
The track from Woodbine Jct to Cape May Court House is restricted to 5 mph with no passengers allowed.
Tony Macrie, General Manager of CMSL, wants to find the money to rehab the rest of the track and operate into Hammonton, where he has lived all his life, to connect with the NJT Atlantic City line, thus providing Philly to Cape May service. There are other short line (freight) railroads in NJ that oppose this because this would siphon potential money from their operations. They consider seasonal passenger service to be a frivolous waste of money.
Traffic to Cape May on summer Saturday afternoons gets gridlocked on two-day weekends, too.
Mark
I have a solution.
Why not take you're bicycle to the Shore. I did the same thing this weekend and did not spend six hours each way fighting traffic on the highways. Myself and a couple of cyclists took the NJ Transit train from Newark to Long Branch. Along the way, I was the long line of cars you were talking about on the highway but there were no tears coming out of my eyes.
Once arriving at the Long Branch station, we rode all past all the beaches (Avon, Long Branch, Asbury Park etc). There were looooong lines of cars looking for parking but that was not the case for us as there were plenty of bicycle racks.
We're going to do the Cape May trip in a couple of weeks. I wouldn't petition NJ Transit for more rail/bus service because that is a waste of time. (I have plenty of experience) The mayor of Cape May would have to become involved in such negotiations and I suspect they don't want the Atlantic City crowd and prefer the motorists instead.
Let's see ... according to the original post, driving from Philadelphia to Cape May took six hours to cover 92 miles. It would have taken less time to bike the entire distance! So much for the "freedom" of driving.
You're right. I didn't see that at first. It would have been better to take Septa to Atlantic City and then ride to Cape May. Cape May is 50 miles away so I don't think he would have made it.
In his case, why not take a Taxie?
That's NJT to Atlantic City.
ooops... You're right again.
Brilliant. Other than the fact that the idea of having a train is far better and would get you there faster still.
Mark
I really wish Amtrak would just start their NYP and BOS to Cape Cod service again, but we know they don't have the cash to do it.
How much did Amtrak cost to arrive at Cape Code? An even better question would be how much would Amtrak charge today to Cape Code?
We all know Amtrak does not have the cash to do it but it's more likely people would not pay for that kind of money when renting a car might be cheaper.
What is traffic like on the roads to Cape Cod? The reason I want a train to take to Cape May is that the traffic is so horrible on the roads between Philly and the Shore. If traffic is as nightmarish on the roads to Cape Cod, a train would have a lot of appeal.
Mark
Amtrak used to run seasonal Cape Codder service but the track speeds were quite slow so it's not clear that it would've been any faster than driving even with the interminable traffic jams. In addition, its final incarnation ran to/from NY via Providence, with a change of trains for passengers going to/from Boston. That limited the appeal to what would have been a substantial market.
: (
Mark
That's not the "Jersey Shore" ;-> You're talking about Sandy Hook to Seaside Heights in that case . . .
BTW, the only way to get proper rail service between Philly and Cape May is to lobby for it, and lobby hard. There are organizations like NJ-ARP and DVARP that specialize in that. See if they can't help you to get friends organized into lobbying the state of NJ into getting CMSL running into 30th Street Station . . .
Good one. I think I'm going to join especially after seeing a picture of the HBLR. If anyone is going to make rail service to Cape May possible, it would have to be NJ Transit.
Mark
I haven't been to Cape May in years. What's so different about Cape May that would force you to suffer though 6 hours of traffic? Seriously. What's so special about those beaches from the ones at Long Branch? Is there some kind of amusement park there that I don't know about? Are they giving away free food? Are the hotels dirt cheap? Are the women running around naked on the beach?
Folks. Don't you get it? There's no need to visit this non-transit friendly resort town in the middle of no-where. Let the motorist spend 6 hours trying to get to this wasteland.
We are more educated and use fast railroads and avoid wasting our lives on highways. The motorist can sit. The original poster said he would never spend six hours again to visit that place and has thus become "Enlightened".
I also might like to add, we should NOT inform our "secret" to any more motorist or the trains will be packed. I am greedy and enjoy sitting on the train while watching lines of parked cars moving 10 mph on the freeway. ;-)
From what I gather, it's a pleasant, reasonably upscale area, more sedate but less tacky than places like Wildwood.
Which means it's almost like being in The Hamptons. I'm no big fan of summertime resorts, however, personally I prefer a place that has a boardwalk, concession stands, and "real" people as opposed to a place where Yuppies cruise in their BMW's sipping Evian while gawking at the Victorian architecture.
Mark
Mark
Actually, in the world.
Regards,
Jimmy
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/story/198667p-171546c.html
"Feds flag fishy trainspotting
There has been "a dramatic increase in surveillance of trains and rail infrastructure" by suspicious characters, a Homeland Security source reveals.
In one state alone, investigators tell U.S. News & World Report, there were 16 incidents of bizarre surveillance over a recent 30-day period.
"Among the incidents: suspects videotaping or photographing subway cars, rail platforms and switching boxes," the magazine reports.
The development may help explain why New York officials recently proposed a ban on picture-taking in the city's subways. U.S. News describes other frightening events:
Two men tried to deliver flowers to a secured area next to a rail structure. When challenged, the men refused to identify themselves, the magazine said. Two men later offered a $500 bribe to enter the same deck and were seen videotaping the area.
License plates of two different people seen watching rail structures were traced back to individuals on federal watch lists.
Concerns for the nation's trains and subways jumped after the detonation March 11 of 10 bombs on a Madrid commuter line.
The terror attack took 191 innocent lives.
Owen Moritz
Originally published on June 1, 2004 "
We were all thinking that but no one was saying it...
wayne
18th century; 1789, to be exact.
B. The photographs already exist, on this site and others - shall we shut down this site and other railfan sites, and forbid the publication of books containing pictures and diagrams of transit facilities and landmarks?
Way back in the pre-9/11 world when we were still sane, we had this very good idea that certain things, such as sensitive areas on military bases or nuclear power plants, or such high-security areas and events as the Capitol Building during the State of the Union Address (during which the President, VP, most of the cabinet, virtually all of both houses of Congress, and a majority of the Supreme Court, as well as numerous dignitaries, occupy the same room), secrecy and security were so important that classifying any information about it and plugging up any leaks by force was considered a valid thing to do. If protecting the security of these sites and events required the severe abridgment of what would normally be considered the civil liberties of citizens, so be it. It still is a reasonable thing to do, perhaps even more so today than before, and I agree - nobody needs to know the codes to set off a hydrogen bomb. Nobody needs to have access to X kilograms of weapons-grade plutonium for any reason. Anyone can be denied access to the Capitol during the State of the Union, for any reason, at the Secret Service's discretion.
But now in the post-9/11 paranoid world, "soft targets" such as transit hubs, popular tourist attractions, and all sorts of crowded places such as malls and restaurants are gradually beginning to be lumped in with the classic "hard targets," and thus subject to the same draconian security restrictions. In other words, you were never allowed to take pictures of nuclear weapons at missile silos (in fact you weren't allowed access at all unless you had high-level security clearances and a strict governmentally approved "need to know" reason to be there) - now the same sorts of restrictions, to varying (and ever-increasing) extents, as those around ICBMs and nuclear stockpiles, are being put into effect at the Statue of Liberty, our airports, water treatment facilities and the like. You now go through just about as much poking, prodding, frisking and harassment trying to get onto an airplane as you do trying to get into a prison to visit a loved one. Prisons have a very important reason to go through the security measures they do for guests - they're full of criminals, after all. Must prison-style tactics be used on every citizen who tries to board an airplane? Security barriers and checkpoints to get into Times Square for New Year's Eve or the Superbowl, both widely attended events by hundreds of thousands of ordinary citizens, are rapidly becoming comparable to the security applied at the Capitol during the State of the Union address (in fact, the Secret Service was in charge of security at the last Superbowl). A man was arrested and detained for months because he took a picture of himself on a mountaintop that happened to include parts of a water treatment facility in the distant background - this is the sort of thing you'd expect to have happen if you took a picture of yourself with Area 51 featured prominently in the background. People who take openly pictures of subways, and have done so for years, with the explicit legal approval of the MTA, are now treated with the same suspicion as people who used to snap clandestine pictures inside government buildings.
Should the same "need to know" basis and strict classification of information related to the construction of nuclear bombs apply to track maps of the New York City Subway?
Should the same legal repercussions be in effect for someone possessing pictures of subway stations and rolling stock as for someone who illegally possesses critical highly classified information about the workings of a nuclear reactor?
Should people trying to board an airplane be subjected to the same harassment and abridgments of privacy and civil liberties as inmates in a prison?
This is what the authoritarians in society have had a major hard-on for for many years, and 9/11 and the ensuing paranoia have given them a bully pulpit from which to proclaim their scaremongering and legislate their totalitarian ideals.
The bottom line is, unless someone takes a stand and says that we can't allow ourselves to be ruled by this paranoia, where "soft targets" are guarded just as much as the classic "hard targets," and our rights around these "soft targets" (many of which we, by necessity, spend a great deal of time in and around every day) are abridged just as much as they would be in a prison, a military base, or a restricted area in a nuclear power plant, we're rapidly headed for a police state, one in which the rule is not that something is allowed unless prohibited by the government, but one in which everything is prohibited unless explicitly allowed by government dictum. And that is not a world I would like to live in.
While I agree with almost all of your post, I have to say that airport security isn't necessarily more intrusive today than it was pre-9/11. There's still the same metal detector screening as always. Baggage X-raying is new, of course, but that occurs largely out of public sight.
What I want to know is the following:
Suppose the screener says you have to go for a strip search (or some other intrusive search). Do you have the right to refuse?
After all, if you do, than anyone who is concealing something that would be revealed by such a search could escape scot-free. The security measures, while they prevented someone with contraband (which could be as simple as a nail file or cuticle scissor) from boarding, they weren't caught, and are free to try again another day.
And if you don't, that is, you do not have the right to leave of your own will and volition, then are you under arrest? If not, under what authority may they hold you there against your will?
At the same time, the SEPTA employee's motion detector was found at Powelton Yard near 30th Street Station. It was placed there to awaken him if his boss approached. Until the truth came out, the media considered it a terrorist device that could blow up a train by remote control.
NJT used the motion detector story and the numerous reports of suspicious photography to justify their ban on photography.
Chuck Greene
WRITE LETTERS to the Daily News, and to this Owen Moritz creature.
BOMBARD them with our facts, and let them know just how unfair and biased their coverage is.
Send Moritz a portfolio of our best artistic shots. Let him publish these in the Daily News, to demonstrate what sort of photography we do, and that we are not of evil intent.
Elias
Two men tried to deliver flowers to a secured area next to a rail structure. When challenged, the men refused to identify themselves, the magazine said. Two men later offered a $500 bribe to enter the same deck and were seen videotaping the area.
So someone accepted the bribe. Where are the two men now. If they were illegally in a secure area, why were they not arrested?
License plates of two different people seen watching rail structures were traced back to individuals on federal watch lists.
And? If the authorities are watching them (or us?!), why? If they are on the list and videotaping, were they not approached?
I’m sorry, but this article is just another of the fear & panic inducers, nothing useful or substantive.
The article doesn't say that... only that it was offered.
... this article is just another of the fear & panic inducers, nothing useful or substantive.
That I'll agree with.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sounds like some sort of SubTalk meet-up :)
>>"Among the incidents: suspects videotaping or photographing subway cars, rail platforms and switching boxes," the magazine reports. <<
Great job guys - where's the pics?
This whole uproar about rail photography is bullshit!
wayne
Oh no! To stop every-day commuters knowing where they're going terrorists, we're going to have to install Labyrinth style moving walls. Oh well, at least it has a good soundtrack...
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Maybe I should start reporting new passengers that I have never seen before. Come to think of it, there are about 6 billion people on this planet that I have never seen before, so they might all be suspicious ............
Ashcroft will be happy when half the people in the country are working for the government watching the other half.
Ah, but how do they know they can trust the half that are doing the watching?
Quis custodiet custodes ipse? (As they used to say in the old days.)
I think that 1984 is upon us. George Orwell was just about completely right about Big Brother. He was a little early in the timing, that’s all.
You mean the Ashcroft Youth?
Homeland (In)Security......
The folks who gave us the "Terror Warning" in May, listing the WWII Monument Dedication, some big-wig meeting in June and the political conventions as "likely targets".
The WWII Dedication went off just like all the national events - NOTHING UNUSUAL HAPPENED!!!!!!!!!!!
And, to top it all off H(I)S didn't raise the colour code to orange. How silly of them.
The car was 6100 and was at the north end of a southbound train. The train was on track 3 and was signed as an R. It was empty and was just pulling out (probably a put-in for further down the road).
That should raise some eyebrows when the train eventaully haeds northbound.
It was used around 1987. It was a 4th Avenue Local to Chambers St, Manhattan. I know some people who wish it would come back again. It was good because now you have to make a transfer to the M at 36th St. But I just don't think there is a good enough demand to bring it back. And even if there was, they would have to change the rollsign to a brown R circle, because the MTA doesn't use diamonds anymore.
-Broadway Buffer
Also your fears are largely baseless. If America would adapt either the Disney ROW construction or Japanese safety standards as a code for all systems created in the US, both problems you cite would be accounted for. Disney's guideway features a catwalk inbetween the two beams, an imperative with their inferior suspension and cabin style interior. Japanese monorails on the other hand use a mandatory walk-through articulated design, and end doors are specified on all systems. This allows passengers to exit onto the guideway, usually a good 3 feet wide, as a last chance emergency exit. Also the walk-through articulation allows passengers to escape from something like a fire without the choke points of end doors that most subway stock imposes.
I'm not saying that monorails should be out to replace freight railroads, or that exsisting systems should be torn out and replaced with monorails (we'll see how the Central Link does). But certainly in rail infrastructre poor areas, like Seattle, Las Vegas, and Phoenix, all of which grew up after the highway boom and didn't have the luxury of being competed for by multiple railroads, monorails make a lot of sense when deciding modal choice. You're looking at a mode that provides the same capacity as a heavy rail train of the same length, is cheaply and easily grade separated, is capable of performance at or above heavy rail trains, which cannot derail, and which often offers costs at a mere fraction what it'd cost to build a conventional heavy rail (or even light rail) system with the same features. At this point thanks to the FRA interchangibility is gone, they don't even deliver rolling stock on it's own wheels anymore, so why bother to keep the two wheel convention in a city with little or no history with that convention (Seattle's never successful trolleys met their ignominious fate at a bonfire in 1941), when there's a cheaper, safer and all around vastly superior mode out there which other countries have proved is a safe and reliable system?
Then explain the Australian immigrants running around by the Seattle waterfront. They're painted green, and they most certainly are trolleys.
A 3-foot wide beam, up in the air, no handrails, is not too comforting for a person with even the mildest aversion to heights. The more you layer on infrastructure to abate a monorail's deficiencies, the more you increase its cost and maintenance, countering the main argument of many advocates.
SEATTLE - An electrical short apparently sparked a monorail fire outside a Seattle museum that trapped as many as 100 people, officials said Tuesday.
Perry Cooper, spokesman for the city's monorail system, said both of the system's trains will remain out service indefinitely.
"This is the first time we've ever had a fire in the 42-year history of the monorail," Cooper said. "We want to make sure we know what happened to the Blue Train before we put the Red Train back out."
Cooper said the monorail fire was caused by a short in wiring to the electrical motor. "Right now we're trying to pinpoint exactly what that was," he said.
Firefighters evacuated dozens of passengers by ladder Monday night, but no one was seriously injured when the monorail caught fire outside the Seattle Center's Experience Music Project, a rock 'n' roll museum. Thousands of people gathered at the center over the holiday weekend for the annual Northwest Folklife Festival.
Nine people were treated and released from a hospital, including a firefighter who injured a knee, Seattle Fire Department spokeswoman Helen Fitzpatrick said. About 40 people were evaluated at the scene for respiratory problems from the smoke.
The monorail, originally built for the 1962 World's Fair, runs through the museum on its path between the Seattle Center and downtown. The train stands 20 feet above ground.
Holly Schwartzmann, a 15-year-old passenger, told The Seattle Times she heard a pop and saw a spark that appeared to be coming up from the floor near a window.
"It really didn't take the Fire Department that long to show up," said the girl's mother, Marlene Schwartzmann. "But as the inside of the monorail turned pitch black, it began feeling like an eternity."
Had those aboard become desperate, "the outcome could have been very different," Fitzpatrick said. "No one jumped, which is a good thing."
It seems that the blue train was the one that was damaged.
Larry,RedbirdR33
(But couldn't post my predictions because the server was farked up :)
From what they described - metallic gerinding followed by a bang - it sounded like a good arc then shortout. And I bet the 'grinding' sounded a LOT like the third rail shoe arcing that you hear on the M-1/3s. Listen closely as the train goes through a switch slowly, you'll hear what I mean. The M-2/4/6s do it too at GCT, and with more 'punch' to it...
How does the dispatcher know?
Michael
Washington, DC
Enjoyed my weekend in NY
although, once time i was waiting for a C at 59th/CC and a B pulled in. the T/O had overshot the stop by about 2 feet, and was about to get out to hit the punch. i walked over there and did it for him, and he thanked me.
i'd say that's the exception though, not the norm.
Michael
Washington, DC
Keyby was a real way of life on the IRT though. :)
And yeah, they had a phobia about people keying by onto a blind curve even though there was a repeater in the curve. I suppose somebody missed it. :)
But noooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
If it was RUSH though, that would have been a given, and it would have been thrown back where it belonged. But as short-sheeted as the TA was then, anyone who COULD run a railroad was on the splits ...
Why?
Seriously, the ATTITUDE shift from "we move people" to "justify your position - what IS it that you guys do in that broom closet?" was a real BIE to those who'd plied the rails for decades. Silly rules, an insistence on pressed ties when the trains didn't work, and the evil empire of Dr. Ronan in everybody's face with an attitude. And that Mike Quill was dead and the "new" TWU just rolled over and died was seen by most as the "handwriting on the wall."
BTW that was the only time I ever saw that signal in question being red. I wish I could remember if that D train we were on was a solid R-32 consist or a mixed R-32/R-42 smorgasbord. It was right about the time mixed consists were commonly seen on the IND and BMT.
Those of us in NYCTA didn't take too kindly to the "new cars" looking like his fantasy LIRR A1A's (M-1's) and then everything ELSE got painted to look like them too.
But as to the keybys, *if* that signal was red, it meant that the train on the ramp was parked there. If it dropped to yellow-D, then it meant that the train ahead of you was starting to roll across the switches and you could CAREFULLY keyby there, just keep it SLOW since whatever way the train ahead of you was going, it was doing it on Columbus Circle Station Time ...
Dave B, if you're out there, are these currently approach-retaining
or advance-retaining?
Those old IRT key-by keys were very cool. They actually pressed
down on the tickler button of the stop magnet valve.
I've seen the old IRT keyers, I've had to do the Monster Mash trackside, but never saw one of THESE ...
There are newer circle-K signals installed to act as "advance bumper blocks" that have a key by button. some of these on the BMT have working buttons on the side, but that's all I know of.
Yeah, some have been rewired. The B'way middle tracks are a real hodge podge of DC and 3-p-AC. The are also some that just have the button disconnected...
designate spots where the tripper would go down on its own after a full stop
huh? ...conventional signal systems can't know if trains are moving or stopped... You're gonna be waiting all day if you're behind the IJ.
huh? ...conventional signal systems can't know if trains are moving or stopped... You're gonna be waiting all day if you're behind the IJ.
I don't know how the circuitry worked, exactly, but I believe that the presence of the train would start a timer going which would lower the trip and change the signal at a rate that would effectively force a full stop.
In operation, you'd pull to a stop just before the track joint. Then you'd release and bump the controller to SLOWLY pull ahead until your first axle and wheel actually bridged the insulated joint, prepared to stop again. The wheel shorting out across the insulated joint would cause the trip to drive down and the signal to clear (or not) major point being that you caused the trip to drive down whereupon you could enter the next block EXPECTING to find the ass end of the train ahead of you in your face.
It was necessary though to stop after hitting the IJ and watch your trip go down. This took a few seconds after crossing the IJ as "protection." If you took power and rolled, you'd hit the trip because there was a delay between the time you put your wheel across the IJ and the time the trip actually drove down. This allowed "tightening up" of the railroad and the ability to close in on your leader on a congested railroad, perhaps giving your follower a chance to actually get TO the platform behind you.
OK Unca Jeff and Unca Dave ... I turn over the controls. :)
Let me re-phrase what Selkirk said.
IND-style automatics are "advance retaining", meaning what
drives the stop arm down is occupancy of the track circuit
which it is protecting. This means the stop arm is always down
immediately behind a train, and that's why there is "overlap",
i.e. two reds protect the train. (It gets more complicated than
this, but it will suffice).
To "key-by" such an automatic signal, i.e. to make the arm drive
down, you must occupy the track circuit just beyond the signal.
This is made possible because the insulated joint which marks
the boundary between track circuits is actually a few feet before
the signal head and stop arm. So, if you pull up such that your
cab is even with the signal, the front axle will actually be in
the next track circuit and the arm will drive.
There is no timing device per se, other than the inherent delay
in the operation of the relays and stop mechanism, versus the
limited footage between the front axle crossing the joint and the
trip cock striking the arm.
LOL
Bob
Jimmy 8^)
Thank you for your e-mail correspondence.
With an eye toward customer safety and security, MTA NYC Transit is seeking MTA Board approval of several changes to the current Rules of Conduct, which govern customer conduct on subways, buses, and the Staten Island Railway (SIRTOA).
Among these pending safety and security proposals is a general ban against photography and videotaping in the system, except for members of the press holding valid Working Press identification cards issued by the New York City Police Department, or where written authorization has been provided by MTA NYC Transit.
The world, and consequently our operating environment, has changed dramatically. These yet to be approved changes to our rules, the first in almost a decade, are intended to enhance safety and security for both our customers and employees.
Feedback from our riders is important to us. Before final approval is sought from the full MTA Board, customers will have forty-five days to comment on the proposed changes following publication in the New York State Register -the official publication of the New York Department of State. The complete text of the proposed changes is now available on the MTA web site ( mta.info ) during the comment period. Comments will be made part of the record and forwarded to the MTA Board for consideration.
Sincerely,
Douglas R. Sussman
Director
Community Affairs
--- Original Message ---
Customer (AEM7) - 05/31/2004 05:06 PM
I am writing to suggest that the proposed Section 1050.9(c) rewrite should adopt a system where positively identified members of the public, after applying for a permit from MTA, should be permitted to take photographs of MTA equipment during a specified time period.
I am a published transit researcher, and have presented at TRB on multiple occasions, and I am involved with an ongoing TCRP project. I have on occasions taken pictures of NYCT equipment (or used photos taken by others, of NYCT equipment -- signalling, track, vehicles) to make a point in my papers and reports. NYCT have been highlighted as "industry best practice" in some areas through the use of these photos. I have also been able to illustrate issues such as signal sighting through the use of NYCT photos and photos from European systems.
The photo ban, while it may be politically necessary, it will do harm to the research community. Even though I don't actually take may photos, using others' photos definitely enhances my research and improves the quality of my work. I am suggesting that MTA follows the MBTA practice in this area -- by issuing photo permits (for a nominal fee), for those who seek it and are prepared to present at least two forms of positive ID at the MTA headquarters, one of which must be a photo ID.
I would appreciate your response on this matter. Thank you for your time and attention.
Best Regards,
AEM7
Transit Analyst
Rational during WWII was to prevent the enemy of knowing about movements of troops, equipment and other material, and to prevent their knowing of the martialing points.
Clearly this sort of information is of no interest to an enemy that does not have bomber aircraft, or who can move troops to oppose a forced landing. But as it typical, military and security planers always bend their efforts to fighting the last war.
For a terror bomber just leaving a back pack somewhere is sufficient. They do not need thotographs to do that.
The only thing that I can think of is that terrorists might disguise themselves as photographers so that they might loiter in a place for a time. "No officer, I'm not a terrorist, I'm a photographer, see, here is my camera."
That posibility has already been negated by police inspection of photographers. The police OUGHT to question ANYBODY loitering on a train platform. But then a hobbist with ID in order is not a threat.
But even if a loiterer did have a bomb, the officer is not going to inspect the bag is he. No, he will copy down ID information, perhaps do na NCIC and INS check, and bid the fellow a good day. Either that or his wife and/or family will get a letter of condolances from the Mayor.
Honor your cops. But damn it, they ought to honor our rights too!
Elias
1. There have always been "authoritarians" in our society. September 11th has given them an opportunity to assert themselves, and most people have acquiesced to this.
2. It probably wouldn't have mattered this time, but when trying to make a case for your point of view, you'd do better to avoid jargon and acronyms which may or may not have meaning to the reader, and to sign a real name.
Thank you for your e-mail correspondence.
With an eye toward customer safety and security, MTA NYC Transit is seeking MTA Board approval of several changes to the current Rules of Conduct, which govern customer conduct on subways, buses, and the Staten Island Railway (SIRTOA).
Among these pending safety and security proposals is a general ban against photography and videotaping in the system, except for members of the press holding valid Working Press identification cards issued by the New York City Police Department, or where written authorization has been provided by MTA NYC Transit.
The world, and consequently our operating environment, has changed dramatically. These yet to be approved changes to our rules, the first in almost a decade, are intended to enhance safety and security for both our customers and employees.
Feedback from our riders is important to us. Before final approval is sought from the full MTA Board, customers will have forty-five days to comment on the proposed changes following publication in the New York State Register -the official publication of the New York Department of State. The complete text of the proposed changes is now available on the MTA web site ( mta.info ) during the comment period. Comments will be made part of the record and forwarded to the MTA Board for consideration.
Sincerely,
Douglas R. Sussman
Director
Community Affairs
Auto-Response - 05/31/2004 02:55 PM
Feedback from our riders is important to us. Before final approval is sought from the full MTA Board, customers will have forty-five days to comment on the proposed changes to the Rules of Conduct following publication in the New York State Register -the official publication of the New York Department of State. The complete text of the proposed changes will be made available on the MTA web site during the comment period. Comments will be made part of the record and forwarded to the MTA Board for consideration.
You will receive a similar follow-up notice in your e-mail “in-box”.
Customer (Wayne L. Whitehorne) - 05/31/2004 02:55 PM
To whom it may concern,
I wish to take this opportunity to express my displeasure regarding the proposed ban on photography within the NYCT facilities, particularly the subway system. As an amateur photogapher with a body of work in progress consisting of many photos of stations and trains, (a number of which are published) I feel that this is over-reaching and over-reacting to a perceived threat, which is minimal at best. I feel you should reconsider this ban, and if you do impose it, allow those like myself, who use their cameras to document and record the subway's history, to obtain official permission to continue to do so.
Thank you for your consideration,
Wayne L. Whitehorne
Question Reference #040531-000028
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Needless to say I am VERY unhappy with this form-letter response.
wayne
The MTA is no doubt receiving hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of comments on this proposal. You can't realistically expect each person to receive a hand-crafted response, particularly while they're still in the early part of a 45-day comment period. At the end of the comment period, let's hope there's enough uproar to force a re-assessment.
I was under the impression that the 45-day period has not yet started.
It's a damm sinfull joke!!!!
They encourge feedback which is responded to with an automated response system?
Somethings wrong here.....very very wrong.
I don't know a damm thing about photography but it makes me want to go out & buy a camera & head to the city & just snap away!!!!
Jimmymc25
ps....okay....so I'm not a photographer.......but what can I do to help?
A canned response is better that no response. You can see that someone at least read your letter enough to choose the appropriate canned response!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE.
Recently you requested personal assistance from our on-line support
center. Below is a summary of your request and our response.
Subject
---------------------------------------------------------------
No on photo ban
Discussion Thread
---------------------------------------------------------------
Response (Doug Sussman) - 06/01/2004 10:23 AM
Dear psa188:
Thank you for your e-mail correspondence.
With an eye toward customer safety and security, MTA NYC Transit is
seeking MTA Board approval of several changes to the current Rules of
Conduct, which govern customer conduct on subways, buses, and the Staten
Island Railway (SIRTOA).
Among these pending safety and security proposals is a general ban
against photography and videotaping in the system, except for members of
the press holding valid Working Press identification cards issued by the
New York City Police Department, or where written authorization has
been provided by MTA NYC Transit.
The world, and consequently our operating environment, has changed
dramatically. These yet to be approved changes to our rules, the first in
almost a decade, are intended to enhance safety and security for both
our customers and employees.
Feedback from our riders is important to us. Before final approval is
sought from the full MTA Board, customers will have forty-five days to
comment on the proposed changes following publication in the New York
State Register -the official publication of the New York Department of
State. The complete text of the proposed changes is now available on
the MTA web site ( mta.info ) during the comment period. Comments will
be made part of the record and forwarded to the MTA Board for
consideration.
Sincerely,
Douglas R. Sussman
Director
Community Affairs
Customer - 06/01/2004 10:01 AM
This comment is submitted as a formal protest against the proposed
photo ban. Please add the comment into the official record of the
proceedings. I agree with the official statement of the Straphangers Campaign
that reads "We respect the need for security in the transit system, but
believe that there are important values in having photographers document
life and conditions on the subways and buses." Furthermore, as
Straphangers also points out, the MTA's own web site is sponsoring an
exhibition of photographic images on the history of the subway. It's more than a
bit inconsistent with this ill-conceived photo ban. Let's work on
making the subway system more secure by going after the bad people, not
innocent photographers.
Auto-Response - 06/01/2004 10:01 AM
Feedback from our riders is important to us. Before final approval is
sought from the full MTA Board, customers will have forty-five days to
comment on the proposed changes to the Rules of Conduct following
publication in the New York State Register -the official publication of the
New York Department of State. The complete text of the proposed
changes will be made available on the MTA web site during the comment period.
Comments will be made part of the record and forwarded to the MTA Board
for consideration.
You will receive a similar follow-up notice in your e-mail “in-box”.
Question Reference #040601-000026
---------------------------------------------------------------
MTA Service: MTA-Wide
Category: Rules of Conduct Comment
Contact Information: psa188@yahoo.com
Date Created: 06/01/2004 10:01 AM
Last Updated: 06/01/2004 10:23 AM
Status: Closed
Date/Time of Event:
Location of Event
---------------------------------------------------------------
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Saliva
"Brian Wilson"
Drove downtown in the rain nine-thirty on a Tuesday night,
just to check out the late-night record shop.
Call it impulsive, call it compulsive, call it insane;
but when I'm surrounded I just can't stop.
It's a matter of instinct, it's a matter of conditioning,
It's a matter of fact.
You can call me Pavlov's dog
Ring a bell and I'll salivate- how'd you like that?
Dr. Landy tell me you're not just a pedagogue,
cause right now I'm
[Chorus]
Lying in bed just like Brian Wilson did
Well I'm lying in bed just like Brian Wilson did...
---------------
That's the only Pavlov I've ever heard of. Whoa, the next line talks about salivating! That's wild. What does it all mean?
Your pal,
Fred
I've been leaving on my things
So in the morning when the morning bird sings
There's still dinner on my dinner jacket
'Til the dinner bell rings
Experimental dog
Salivating dog
Good dog
Waiting for the dinner bell to do the bell thing
Dinner bell, dinner bell ring
Bags of mail are dumped on tables after being opened by a machine in the mail room that pulls the contents and staples the envelope to the back. NOBODY looks at the envelopes until the end process after the "mail" has been removed. People seated at tables grab each "letter" and skim it to see if it's "Fer or ag'in" and does a hashmark on a yellow legal pad. The letter is then removed from the envelope, and thrown away. The ENVELOPE then goes into a "fer or ag'in" BOX.
The "Fer or ag'in" boxes and their contents then go off to "clerical" where a "Thank you for writing FOR, we agree with you and will consider your thoughts" or "Thank you for writing AGAINST, we agree with you and will consider your thoughts" form letter is attached, stuffed in an envelope and mailed out.
When a political agency inspires controversy or correspondence, the numbers ARE tallied up "Fer or ag'in" and a single page report of "responses" is generated for review by the agency heads. That's as far as it goes though. What will COMPEL an agency to pay attention comes NOT from the public, but from the POLITICIANS ...
The priorities are as follows for an agency to decide in order of whose opinion matters the most:
1. Second Floor (Paturkey)
2. Senate (Joe Bruno)
3. Assembly (Shelly Silver)
4. Lobbyists
5. The "regulated" if a regulatory agency
6. Grandstanders who go on TV
7. Grandstanders who go on radio
8. Reporters
9. The "great unwashed."
10. Al Sharpton
Now one has to wonder why I added Al Sharpton at the bottom - reason being simply that I've worked with Al Sharpton over the years and I've always found him to be intelligent, articulate, and genuine. His "bomnbast" for the media is just his way of getting coverage. When the cameras go away and you sit down with him, he's a VERY smart man and a genuinely good soul. However, agencies will go out of their way to ignore him and his constituents. I've always liked the guy. VERY much.
But there you have it - bottom line is "the PUBLIC be damned" is the motto of this republican administration and its agencies. The *ONLY* way to get your point heard at ALL is for YOUR opinion to come from the GOVERNOR'S office, or lacking that, assigned in the pecking order listed above. Paper mail isn't much better than Email as far as state agencies go. It *WILL* impress the ELECTED, and it *WILL* impress the MEDIA ... but the trolls in an agency don't even READ it, much less respect it. Means NOTHING but MORE WORK to them. Agency folks *HATE* paper mail ... with a PASSION. :(
POLITICIANS on the other hand feel COMPELLED to respond.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
I was on a committee that helped to re-write North Dakota's Rules and Regulations for Nursing in compliance with new legislation.
Yes, the board will read every message, and a summary of them will be presented entered in the proceedings.
It is unrealistic to expect that they would yet have been read by a board member. Yet is it not nice to have some response from them, even if it is an automated response acknowledging that they received you message.
Keep the pressure up. Get press space for your position. reply to those with a contrary position. Keep it in the public eye.
Elias
Public opinion forced us to back off of one our most cherished rules. We tried to make an end run around the STOOPIT legislature, but there was too much public outcry. That particular part of the rule did not get changed.
Elias
No, it is an automated response. They said that it would be. You think a computer cannot see the word "photo*" in your message, and answer with this message, then you have better go back to DOS 2.0
: ) Elias
And some of the letters posted here wern't ???
: ) Elias
Well I have decided to write to the Transit Museum that if this ban goes into effect then I intend to cancel the Sustaining Membership that I have maintained since they first opened up memberships.
Your pal,
Fred
Thanks for the good, funny, phonetic spelling ("Ritchwoot") of my old home neighborhood (1955-1991).
I myself was in Ridgewood, the miserable humid gray rainy morning of this past Friday May 28th, and the last thing I felt like doing was sightseeing or rail fanning, so I was in and out as quickly as possible, though I did ride the M from Forest Avenue to Chambers St. in lower Manhattan when I was done with business in Ridgewood. So your post and wonderful photos were the positive answer to the "downer" of that morning.
There is a great article about the LIRR Montauk Branch and its Fresh Pond station in the "Our Neighborhood" column of the Times Newsweekly (former Ridgewood Times). Here is the link :
http://timesnewsweekly.com/
There are some great photos, including one of an LIRR steam locomotive in action.
Your "Ritchwoot" makes me think of "Rich wood" and "Witch Root", also the parody version of "The Witches Of Eastwick" : "The Witches of Bushwick".
Which root ? Take your pick !
GP38 Chris, I've always thought of the Forest Pork Store as Ridgewood's own little version of the "Piggly Wiggly" supermarkets down south.
We did it!
It took nine and a half hours of riding on PCC 4549 but we rode through all the possible directions of all three grand unions in one day! It was a lot of fun. I think this ties the all night PCC charter from several years ago as being the most memorable I've been on.
-Robert King
BOB
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And, obviously, it worked.
If anyone would like to be on a mailing list for any trip we might put together for next year (probably over Memorial Day weekend, but that's not definite), you can send me a note off-list and I'll try to make sure you get notified early in the calendar year. There are some possibilities that were talked about last weekend.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
GO TO THE PUBLIC HEARING AT 347 MADISON AVE TOMMORROW FROM 4 TO 6 PM. IT'S ABOUT REQUESTING FEDERAL FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE FOR UPCOMING CAPITAL PROJECTS BUT YOU GUYS CAN REGISTER AND SPEAK OUT AGAINST THE PHOTO BAN INSTEAD. GIVE THEM HELL
I may not be able to attend (unless I can pre-register and tell them I will not be able to get there until after 6:30 PM.) but I though this would be something worthwhile to do.
Disrupt a hearing on funding of capital projects to voice your opinion about a ban on taking photos.
That's the best way to get the MTA to take railfans seriously.
And if you don't see the sarcasm in my statement above, rest assured it is there.
Save the rhetoric for the 45 day comment period.
It is ridiculous to go to a hearing about funding and talk about rules on taking pictures. That would be viewed as a disruption.
If there was some way to tie the photo ban into getting capital funding or preventing it then it would be relevant. Otherwise you will have wasted your time and everyone elses.
Enjoy!
1. Trains are a long tedious walk from the terminals. Exiting at Delta, I found few signs pointing me in the right direction.
2. It's slow going around the terminals. I doubt that the rental agencies & hotels will keep their buses from the terminals for long.
3. Signage & information in stations is pathetic. How is it that "they" invested in a system that drives itself but doesn't explain itself. And what's with the pathetic little LED signs.
4. I'm not cheap, but believe that the $5 fare reflects badly on New York City. There's no fare at any US airport I know of for the shuttle to public transit. It doesn't matter that it's a high tech steel wheeled thingamajig. It's a shuttle. Period. You find yourself in a room full of confusing machines (Jamaica.) Why no clearly marked turnstiles that take $5 bills and speed you on your way? Why does a newly arrived and tired passenger need to deal with a Metrocard machine and its multi-level menus? The least they can do with the recorded announcement is to remind people to have $5 ready. People don't read brochures.
Restoration of the LIRR Far Rock line would have been cheaper to build and would have served the public better.
Considering the condition of the Rockaway Line, it would have been very expensive to rebuild it, and it would be subject to NIMBY concerns.
And then, where would you run it? Penn Station is at capacity.
wayne
As for local service, it would be largely unsuccessful.
Everybody who fears for what activities in their neighborhood will do for their housing price is a NIMBY. We all don't want our housing price to drop below the price you bought your house for, something that could very well happen if something is built right next to it. Indeed, NIMBYs have done some good, they basically banded together in the 1970s to bring the Moses-era of massive highway projects which destroyed neighborhoods to a close, much more of our landscape would have been paved over had it not been for NIMBYs. I remember you once commenting that errecting 25kv catenary over the LIRR would lower property values for the people who live along the lines, that is a classic example of NIMBYism.
Now, these days NIMBYs have far too much say in how things get done, it's best if theres a balance between the project proponents and the people who will have to live with the project. This way the engineers working on the project are kept honest, you're not going to end up with a cross-bronx all over again, and stuff still will get done, right now NYC is practically paralized by NIMBYs who refuse to allow anything they see as hurting their neighborhoods. It's best to just learn to accept NIMBYs and hope that you can overcome their objections to your pet project, that is unless you want a garbage transloading facility (or worse, a dump) built right across the street from you.
As for Airtrain, it's clear that the PANJNY decided that highways make better neighbors than Queens residents. Thus there was relatively little objection to running Airtrain over the Van Wyck, after all the noise and pollution already were there, not some old overgrown strip in the backyard.
I suspected the decision to build over the Van Wyck Expressway was due to it's close proximity to the Jamaca (sp) station. There was no way they were going to an an elevated constructed in 2003. Those days are over.
Having said that, the train is just fine where it is. Most of the crying is simply because they now have to walk .05 mile instead of .05 feet to the ticket counter. It's time we all start walking more.
You would be right. Not only is the Van Wyck a first-class rail ROW, but it passes very near a major destination. From Jamaica Station you can get to most anywhere.
Sure he can. AirTrain goes to Jamaica which goes to Penn Station, which connects with Amtrak, which I think goes to Kansas City.
The real question would actually be though, why would Ron land at Kennedy in order to take Amtrak to Kansas City.......
Fine. But that makes it an extended airport people mover, not a real addition to the city transit grid. It's an oddball; a one trick pony. Disregarding the nimby factor for a moment, the rejuvination of the Rockaway Beach LIRR branch, with stops in Ozone Park, Woodhaven and, uh, Brooklyn Manor would have been like a "day-lighting" of the adjacent communities. With direct service to Manhattan in about a half hour. The issues of just how a commuter-class railroad car would get to those airline terminals would have been a quandry, true. But not unsolvable.
So I'd be willing to kill all the NIMBYs, just NOT IN MY BACK YARD!
:)
Also, do you think the A should be split up more ways than it is now?
The fare can be $2.50 with in the city all times and the fare will be $3.50 if its within the aiport. I think it'll be a far superior solution than the airtrain.
1.5 billion dollars and it wouldn't even go to Jamaica.
While I agree that they originally should have had the LIRR use the old Rockaway line as a direct connection to the airport, that's all water under the bridge, as it was foolishly abandoned in the 60's. That being said, your plan involves one transfer (if using the LIRR), from the LIRR to the "line that loops around the airport" as you called it. Well, the current AirTrain also involves that same one and only transfer (from the LIRR to the AirTrain at Jamaica, which loops the airport). The only difference is that the transfer point is at Jamaica, as opposed to right at the airport. Either way you still have to get off the LIRR train and get on the "airport loop".
but with trains going to Atlantic Avenue (lower manhattan)
Already had with AirTrain: LIRR Atlantic to Jamaica-"transfer"-AirTrain to Airport.
Long Island City and Grand Central (future)
Will work with Airtrain in future: LIRR Grand Central (or new Sunnyside) to Jamaica-"transfer"-AIrTrain to Airport.
it would offer a lot more options than a Jamaica / Howard Beach, and no 50000 transfers and carrying luggage on a packed subway train.
Both mentioned already operate under the destinations/starting points you mentioned for "what should have been" with the current AirTrain, and both with only one transfer. The Jamaica leg allows direct Manhattan access, no different and with no more transfers, than if the LIRR went to Howard Beach. Believe me, I also hate the fact that the Rockaway line was not used, however, what's done is done, and I really can't fault the current AirTrain system, as it does basically the same thing that the LIRR to Howard Beach would, with the same amount of transfers.
I cannot understand what all the hubbub is to have a single seat ride into Manhattan. With the coming of the Fulton St Transit Center, ESA, the finishing of the Jamaica rehab, and other projects, you're going to end up with a ADA compatible, easy transfer between nearly any train to a JFK bound one. Airtrain is of far more utility to the city as a peoplemover carrying people around queens than as a whole system providing a single seat ride into the city.
$5 by airtrain and $3.50 by LIRR or you can walk the one block pray the elevator and take a Packed E into the city.. I think those are "wonderful" options. So $8.50 in total for lugging around, I rather pay the big moeny and have a cab go from door to door. I mean we have to make it cheap at least with the JFK express it was $3.50 and you had a direct JFK Express to JFK express shuttle bus to the airport, at least it was cheaper. Why pay $8.50 to carry your luggage through midtown, the subway, and possibly on a packed train. You need incentive to back the cost.
Cheaper in today's money, but you are talking about $3.50 in 1970's or 80's dollars. That's not the same as $3.50 today. And then you still had to drag the luggage up and down the stairs of the subway and into and out of a bus for that $3.50 in 1970's dollars.
Yeah, but it will go from Grand Central to Jamaica and to Airtrain, with one transfer. That's the same as if the LIRR went from Grand Central to the airport, and you had to make one transfer to the airport circulator.
Sure it does. It matters to the millions of people in eastern Queens, Nassau, and Suffolk. Jamaica is a major hub. Right now Manhattan has direct access to AirTrain via the LIRR, and so does Queens, Nassau, and Suffolk. With your plan, sure Manhattan gets it's access (with the same one transfer they now have with AirTrain), but Eastern Queens, Nassau, and Suffolk looses theirs.
Airtrain cost 1.2 billion dollars, you're still talking about a airport peoplemover system costing a minimum of 500 million dollars in addition to a possibly 1 billion dollar plus rehab of the Rockaway line and connection to the airport. You're not likely to get a Airport peoplemover system for less than 500 million for an airport the size of JFK, and indeed I think my estimates are very conservatively low. You could be looking at 2 billion dollars easily to implement your plan, which would not serve passengers coming from the east, centralizes service in such a way that unless you're coming from two or three points in Manhattan you're SOL. Also now you're talking a mandatory two seat ride to your terminal unless you happen to be flying out of the terminal closest to the LIRR station.
The LIRR should do something along the lines of the Jones Beach - Freeport train/bus scenario at Ronkonkoma. Hell, it doesn't get much ridership now, true, even with only the one bus (S57) route. But as long as it would cost virtually nothing it's worth a try. Something like this could, ala the Jamaica Station planning, lead to a renovation of the streets immediately adjacent to the station. Right now it's basically an ad hoc collection of dusty older structures.
This would also be expensive. The stations would have to be wider to separate the two modes, and the stations would have to be longer.
Especially if the system was FRA-compliant.
I can't think any aspect of the project that would have been cheaper this way. To the contrary, it strikes me as more expensive.
I too think real estate interests lead to the building of an expensive SHUTTLE betw JFK and Jamaica.
The purpose of the JFK-Jamaica link was to provide a service that connected to the LIRR and midtown. Pretty simple, eh?
Someone may point out that the Piccadilly Line and the Heathrow Express both have stops, but when you get off at Terminals 1/2/3, you can have a very, very long walk to your actual terminal, and there is no inter-terminal circulator.
Sure, it'd only be 1.8 billion instead of 2 billion, probbably. The line would need a ground up rebuild. Plus all the terminal stuff at JFK would STILL have to be built. The Rockaway line would have required all new track, lots of dirt work, all new signals, all new substations, etc etc etc. Plus, you'd have a shared ROW with the A train, which the FRA won't allow.
Then, we'd have to pay union wages to have a two or three perrson crew run each train, complete with FRA regulations, and the requisite brake tests, slow curve speeds, high power consuimption as a function of high weight / acceleration demands, etc etc etc.
Oh yes, and it'd mean anyone going from anywhere on LI to JFk would have to take a train all the damm way into Penn, then change to a train on the way out. Really fun durring the rush, or are we simply going to not run airport service then?
IMHO, the 'one seat ride' BS is way overrated because it assumes that all of the system's usage origionates from Midtown.
When you look at the context in which the Airtrain had to be built, it really wasn't as stupid as a decision as it looks. For a bit more up front, the PA got a system that'll cost a heck of a lot less to run, and is more usable to passengers origionating on long island than a 'one seat' line would be.
You shouldn't be H about that O. How many people live (or have a hotel room or office) within walking distance of Penn Station?
You're assuming the planners are too stupid to realize that a majority of people coming into Penn Station use some other form of transit to reach their ultimate destination.
To the contrary, they are well aware of that. "One-seat ride" is just a convenient label. What it really means is "faster trip to midtown destinations." Whether it takes you one, two, or three seats to get there obviously depends on where you're going.
We've been through this before. Suffice to say you have no data whatsoever to support your opinion.
It would be a lot more constructive if you stated the reasons (or pointed us to the thread, if it's really true they were stated before). There are people on Subtalk who are actually willing to explain a point of view, rather than simply assuring us that the contrary opinion has no data to support it.
However, you and he are making the same type of claim. The only difference is that your preferred option is the one they actually built. Therefore, in the discussion here, both of you have supported your positions equally well; that is, both of you have presented no data whatsoever.
Actually, no. My argument was much broader. It included the fact that AirTrain had a ready, fully-funded sponsor whereas the Rockaway option did not; that AirTrain had a more suitable ROW; that AirTrain did not suffer the degree of NIMBY that the Rockaway option would (and this is a major contributor to expense); and that the Rockaway option would not be ready as quickly as AirTrain (because no plan had been put together for it and because without East Side access there is insufficient capacity).
Each of the above points is well documented. The expense estimates for actually building the Rockaway Line would depend on what approach was taken (which is highly NIMBY dependent).
Mitch has nothing to refute any of the above.
So your statement is mostly false.
It wasn't before, because you hadn't given your reasons. Now you've done so. I hope we can hear more of this from you in the future. My criticism is when you slam people for offering no data, and then offer none yourself.
In summary, I'd say that most of the "statements" made on SubTalk are based on personal feelings and assumptions. That means that if you want to have worthwhile discussions with people who make such statements, YOU'LL have to bring the proff to the table to disprove their personal feelings and assumptions. Don't expect them to come up with data when they obviously can't, and then don't be all like "well since he can't bring data, he has to be wrong and I have to be right." Do you follow what I'm saying?
It depends on the terminal. At Terminal 4, for instance, the AirTrain stop is built right into the building. You can't get much closer than that. At others, I agree, the planning seems to have been pretty feeble.
2. It's slow going around the terminals. I doubt that the rental agencies & hotels will keep their buses from the terminals for long.
It is considerably faster than the inter-terminal bus used to be.
3. Signage & information in stations is pathetic. How is it that "they" invested in a system that drives itself but doesn't explain itself.
Perhaps you can elaborate. It seemed pretty clear to me.
4. I'm not cheap, but believe that the $5 fare reflects badly on New York City. There's no fare at any US airport I know of for the shuttle to public transit.
There's at least one other: Newark.
It's a shuttle. Period.
Call it a head of lettuce, for all I care. The fare is $7, and they happen to collect it in two segments. It is considerably cheaper and more predictable than a taxi. It is considerably more convenient and predictable than a bus, but it is not as cheap as a bus.
You can moan all you want about the cost, but they had to pay for it somehow. The route around the terminals is free; the route to mass transit charges a fare that is competitive given the costs and drawbacks of the other transportation options available.
You find yourself in a room full of confusing machines (Jamaica.)
Not sure what you mean by this, but I believe the connection at Jamaica is still under construction.
Why no clearly marked turnstiles that take $5 bills and speed you on your way? Why does a newly arrived and tired passenger need to deal with a Metrocard machine and its multi-level menus? The least they can do with the recorded announcement is to remind people to have $5 ready. People don't read brochures.
This part I agree with - for non-residents this could be confusing.
Perhaps you can elaborate. It seemed pretty clear to me.
There are three different trains. I expect large "airport-size" signs explaining what goes where. There was an attendant to sort things out. What happens when there's no attendant?
There's at least one other: Newark.
Don't get me started on EWR.
You can moan all you want about the cost, but they had to pay for it somehow. The route around the terminals is free; the route to mass transit charges a fare that is competitive given the costs and drawbacks of the other transportation options available.
How did Hartsfield pay for their tram? DFW? How did Reagan, O'Hare & Midway pay for the subway to arrive at the airport proper? Little things like this create the impression that New York City is uncompetitive given the other cities than one can visit and/or do business in.
The walk at Midway from the Southwest Airlines gates is about a mile and entails walking through the parking garage (unless they redid this in the last year). Not exactly customer friendly! At O'Hare the CTA terminal is also a pretty good hike, depending upon your airline.
O'Hare and Midway have quite a hike to the 'L.'
Sometimes the "driver" takes a detour to the yard on Airtrain.
Matt
AirTrain was paid for by the $3 surcharge (tax) on tickets for flights using JFK.
Apparently it wasn't, or at least not all of it. Can you demonstrate that the $5 fare isn't paying for the AirTrain? You'd be making pretty big news!
There is no contradiction. The AirTrain has both capital costs and running costs.
Delta had been planning on demolishing terminals 3 and 4 and replacing them with a new modern terminal. The plans were indefinitely postponed after 9/11, and even though air traffic is recovering I doubt we'll see the new terminal anytime soon given DL's still-precarious financial position. What's significant as far as AirTrain is concerned is the fact that the system most likely was designed and built with the understanding that a new DL terminal was coming soon. The station serving terminals 2 and 3 was supposed to be more or less temporary, in other words, with the permanent station to be better integrated into the new terminal.
DL's spending about $25 million IIRC on renovations to terminals 2 and 3. I don't believe the idea for a new terminal is completely dead, but if and when it's built it probably will incorporate the existing terminals rather than replace them outright.
There are other AirTrain stops where the design is harder to justify. For instance, at JetBlue the AirTrain stop is right at the terminal building, but instead of fronting directly into the terminal, you have to walk outdoors around the corner to the main entrance.
True, but remember that Terminal 6 was getting only light use at the time AirTrain was being designed and built. JetBlue didn't start flying until 2000, and didn't have that many flights for its first year or two. It's only been about two years since B6 became a major presence and Terminal 6 became really busy.
That's not quite accurate. Terminal 6 was shared space between United and Jet Blue prior to 2002. Post 9/11, United consolidated all of their operations into Terminal 7.
If it was known that United was going to move their operations entirely to T7 (I don't know that it was or wasn't, but think that it wasn't) then perhaps that explanation makes more sense.
CG
That's not quite accurate. Terminal 6 was shared space between United and Jet Blue prior to 2002. Post 9/11, United consolidated all of their operations into Terminal 7.
If it was known that United was going to move their operations entirely to T7 (I don't know that it was or wasn't, but think that it wasn't) then perhaps that explanation makes more sense.
UA had been operating only its transcons out of Terminal 6, maybe ten flights a day or thereabouts. The terminal hadn't really been busy since TWA scaled back its JFK operations in the 1990's, before the rise of JetBlue that is. It's not surprising that the AirTrain designers figured there wouldn't be much use at the T5/6 stop. Of course, Terminal 5 is vacant to this day.
I'm not a big United flier, but T6 was pretty quiet the few times I was there, so the idea that they were only flying the transcons makes sense now that you mention it.
CG
America West might've been in Terminal 6 before moving to 7, but until the last few years they didn't have much of a presence at JFK. All I know about National is that the last time I flew JetBlue, in October 2002, I saw a couple of their (National's) aircraft at Terminal 7. Dunno if they had recently moved there. This was just a short time before National gave up the ghost.
Even accepting this as true, what could have been the point of designing the AirTrain stop the way they did? Obviously, by putting a stop there at all, there was a hope/plan that Terminal 6 would eventually return to full service. Why put a stop right at Terminal 6, but not provide direct egress into the building?
There was the possibility that Terminal 6 would be replaced by something better, as happened with Terminal 4's replacement of the old IAB. Unlike the landmarked Terminal 5, few people particularly liked 6.
-Philadelphia: Station right at the terminal-$5, terminal to city.
-Portland, OR: Ditto for Philly, except a bit cheaper.
-San Francisco: Same as Philly
-Chicago: (ORD): Except for T5, CTA subway is convenient and cheap. (MDW): Could be a bit better, but still worth it.
-St. Louis, MO: Station is right at the airport, very cheap.
-Cleveland, OH: Red line Station is in the terminal-can't beat that.
-Boston, MA: Take a shuttle bus; could be better, but still free.
-Dallas, TX: Trinity railroad Express, cheap & easy, yet infrequent
-Los Angeles, CA: Shuttle bus can be a pain, but still cheap.
-W. Palm Beach/Ft. Lauderdale/Miami, FL: All 3 airports have train service; cheaper to get from W. Palm Beach to Miami (~110 miles) than from JFK to Manhattan.
There are more, but I think IRMC.
The bus shuttle (airBART) from Oakland Airport to the Coliseum BART station charges $2.00 for the privilege. Of course, one has the option of waiting for the irregularly scheduled local transit bus for the same ride.
I prefer a system that "drives" itself instead of a costly one operated by a driver. Furthermore, the "system" recorded messages were pretty self explanatory.
The system is new..... I suspect once things get settled, those uniform workers will be gone. There are too many people employed doing nothing but that's how things start off at first. I agree. There is no economy.
(Obviously, anybody who owns a car or pays a cab fare is too poor to afford the $5 fare, so the millionaires who ride the A train have to fill in for them. At the same time, it's good public policy to discourage the use of the environmentally inefficient A train while promoting promoting the use of private automobiles instead.)
I know we've had this discussion before, but I still stand by what I've said already - the shuttle buses from Howard Beach were the pure essence of evil.
The shuttle buses DID exist. They were FREE. They WERE UNSPEAKABLY VILE AND LOATHESOME. And it was not glorious.
They would have to pay you to ride the buses for it to be a fair deal.
All right, I will be serious - the pre-AirTrain shuttle buses were so poor in so many respects that the fact they were free was nearly irrelevant.
I remember riding the shuttle buses long before the AirTrain was proposed, designed, or built. They were always terrible.
Of course, there's no excuse for that. They must have known for a long time that the buses were going to be eliminated, and it is foolish for anyone to expect to have the same job forever.
My last trip on the shuttle bus before AirTrain was the worst of all. From the time I got to the curb at JFK until I arrived at Howard Beach was 1 hour and 20 minutes-- just slightly shorter than my flight up from Fla. Very possibly my worst trip ever on a public vehicle. And that's including the night the Tampa trolley caught fire AND the day we made an emergency landing at Logan in Boston!!
I agree 100%. But this had nothing to do with fact that it was a FREE SHUTTLE BUS. Instead, it had all to do with the fact that the PANYNJ purposely chose to operate the shuttle buses in a crappy fashion. Had they wanted to, they easily could have kept the buses on schedule, reduced the headways, and omg, maybe even ADDED MORE BUSES! Therefore, the logical solution to the crappy shuttle bus service would have been to make the obvious improvements to the shuttle bus service, thereby reaching the performance of most every other bus route in the city. Think about it - if the crosstown buses in Manhattan can keep to 6 minute headways, and then when they can't, at least they bunch up providing a lot of capacity and all of the following stops, then WHY COULDN'T the PANYNJ's free shuttle buses at JFK have operated a bit better? The answer is the Port Authority didn't care to improve the service to basic, acceptable standards.
and the drivers were unresponsive to the most basic questions from weary travelers
Well AirTrain has NO drivers. Is that an improvement? If I didn't get a satisfactory answer from a bus driver, I would ask him the question again and again, in different ways, until I received an answer or ascertained that he honestly did not know the answer.
and often indulged in the morose delight of taking the many S-turns in the long-term parking lot on two wheels to give the passengers the thrill of falling over the stacked suitcases.
You are being facetious.
My last trip on the shuttle bus before AirTrain was the worst of all. From the time I got to the curb at JFK until I arrived at Howard Beach was 1 hour and 20 minutes-- just slightly shorter than my flight up from Fla. Very possibly my worst trip ever on a public vehicle. And that's including the night the Tampa trolley caught fire AND the day we made an emergency landing at Logan in Boston!!
A decently run bus service would solve that problem in a jiffy.
Having driverless trains and stations staffed with people whose sole job is to assist passengers is far preferable to having buses driven by people who always seemed to treat passengers as trespassers and/or people to belittle for their own entertainment.
Some of the dedicated staff in the stations are made out of cardboard. They are good for yelling at, but not good for answering questions. A bus driver is preferable in this instance.
Not too many people on AirTrain worry about it either.
They are passengers, not bus buffs.
I am adressing a statement made by a SINGLE SubTalker. Do you not understand that?
They are passengers, not bus buffs.
Are you saying I am a "bus buff?"
And let us not forget the penetrating aroma of diesel exhaust.
file me under FAN OF JFK SHUTTLE BUSES from Howard Bch.
1Cool9
You have to take airport passenger volume (and, to a lesser extent, employment levels) into account as well.
We must be careful not to mix "What should they have built?" and "What should they do now?". Let's say for argument's sake that they built the wrong thing. Well, that's interesting, but it's done now.
I'm not saying we shouldn't debate hypotheticals and might-have-beens on SubTalk. Such debates have value. But practically speaking, the only thing that matters in the short-to-medium term is, "What should they do now?"
The shittle bus did exist, and it was free, but it certainly wasn't glorious [or efficient]. You get what you pay for. Again, for anyone already buying an airline ticket, which is certainly not cheap, the $5 becomes irrelevant. It is hardly cheaper to drive a car to the airport (with today's gas prices), and pay for parking. And anyone planning to drive, will drive anyway, $5 or not.
How fast do you want the Air Train to go? This is not the Cyclone in Coney Island but a shuttle. If you want slow, take the monorail Shuttle to Newark Airport. The last time I rode the Airtrain (With my bicycle) we passed the bus with no problem.
>>>>4. I'm not cheap, but believe that the $5 fare reflects badly on New York City. <<<<<
No it's not cheap. BUT! Have you complained about the price of some of those slow express buses and lets not forget the price of a taxie?
My main compliant with AirTrain is the fare collection and how confusing that must be to someone exhausted after a long flight and perhaps unfamiliar with dollars, English, unsure exactly what the fare includes or how the Metrocard coordinates with local travel, etc etc. Good idea, bro! Equip the AirTrain gates to accept $5 bills and be done with it!! Period!! Complicating matters, even for us locals, is that AirTrain doesn't accept the unlimited Cards so I always have to coordinate the expiration of a weekly card with the purchase of a pay-per-ride with enough cash to cover the day or so before departure plus AirTrain- plus one more fare to get home after my return. Since the AirTrain isn't even part of the MTA system, why bother with the Metrocards at all?? It's unnecessarily complicated and just a huge P.I.A., if you ask me.
JewBlue? "LatterDaySaintsBlue" is more correct. Saw an interesting interview with JetBlue founder David Neeleman where he touched on his faith.
The concept is a good one: a single fare medium that works anywhere in the city: bus, subway, Roosevelt Island tramway, PATH, AirTrain...perhaps someday even LIRR and MNR.
But I agree, the execution leaves a lot to be desired.
And that day is today, sort of. When you buy a LIRR or MN ticket from a TVM, you have the option of getting the ticket printed on a Metrocard. I don't see how it can be more integrated, unless the LIRR or MN install faregates, and I don't see that happening (POP would be good).
Great idea. One drawback - how does that confused, exhausted foreign visitor get hold of a $5 bill? ATMs, in the airport as elsewhere, isue $20 bills. If you've used a bureau de change, either at your starting point or at JFK on arrival, you might get a $5 bill, but you might not, and you wouldn't know to ask for one specially, would you?
Perhaps a foreign traveler could pay for AirTrain (or Amtrak, the subway, NJT etc.) on-line or from a kiosk using his/her credit card, in a process which would automatically make the conversion for him/her.
1. Long hike from Train to Terminal
Delta is the worst of the terminals when it comes to AirTrain access. It was the worst when it came to accessing busses and the tradition continues with AirTrain. The problem is the location of the terminal buildings relative to the access roads. To get AirTrain any closer they'd have had to knock parts of the terminals down. As noted elsewhere, T4 has excellent access (right inside the building). T's 1 and 6 are good (1 is entirely enclosed and 6 is nearly entirely enclosed). T8/9 has difficult access now, but this is more because of American's ongoing construction there -- eventually the access will be entirely enclosed like at T1.
2. It may seem slow, but it is considerably faster than any of the shuttle busses used to be.
3. I agree that they need to post better signs. People not familiar with the system are confused -- I often end up playing volunteer guide when I'm riding/waiting. Each station should have a large sign telling exactly which train to take to get to various locations. These signs need to be electronic -- the confusion really sets in when people actually read the small posters telling which trains go where and then the service isn't running as planned. (Mid-day "GO"'s have occasionally had all trains running on one track and in the same direction).
4. I don't have a problem with the $5 fare. I like your suggestion of a machine that accepts cash and eliminates the (MTA) middleman.
CG
A subway direct to the airport with no additional fare would have had to be paid for by the MTA. Given that organisation's wonderful record in building new lines (e.g. the Second Avenue line) I wouldn't have bet any money on JFK getting a rail connection this side of 2100 if the MTA were to build it!
Well, by that argument, the IRT were a bunch of idiots for building City Hall station the way they did - it turned out to be one of the least used stations in the whole system, and within a short walk of another station (BB) that was a lot more useful.
But then, why are any of the existing terminals at JFK built the way they are? I believe at least two of them are landmarked. Why is that? Why didn't they build simple utile box-shaped structures with linoleum floors and institutional 'drop' ceilings?
Was Haliburton responsible for those projects too?
Additionally, I can distinguish between an air terminal with departures for exotic, distant lands and a shuttle to the A train. For the *purpose* it's designed for, the AirTrain stations appear-- to me-- overbuilt, overdone, overblown. How much of our $5 fare is paying for these shuttle train cathedrals in the sky?
Cities (or countries) seem to like to build their airports with grandiose architecture - I guess like they built trains stations 100 years earlier, as a kind of monument to the greatness of their city. Given the choice between GCT and the utilitarian (underground) box that is NY Penn, which is a better ad for New York?
Utilitarian boxes do have they point, though. Recently I travelled out of Terminal 3 at Paris Charles de Gaulle. It is a dreary utilitarian box to which they despatch the low-cost airlines. But it isn't the one that fell down lately, which was the grandiose Terminal 2 (8-) !
How come they can't do something like that, where you swipe your credit card through the faregates instead of having to worry about a MetroCard. I mean the MetroCard option should be available for those that don't have or don't want to use their crdit cards. However, I would just a well be happtier to get out my credit card and swipe it instead of having to go to a MVM to get a card to get out.
And it was free...
MCO's monorail is just a means of getting from the central ticketing area to the concourses and gates. It's completely different in scope from AirTrain.
All the Orlando Peoplemover does is get you from the boarding/arrival gate part of the airport to the baggage-ticketing part of the airport. It's not like Airtrain which brings you to a transportation hub. The Las Vegas Airport has a similar peoplemover. It better be free since it's an essential part of the airport boarding process. New York's airports don't have seperate buildings for boarding and ticketing/baggage.
The closest thing the Orlando peoplemover is to Airtrain is that it is similar to the airport circulator portion of AirTrain (which is also free), but it's still not really the same as New York doesn't have seperate buildings for arrival/departure and baggage/ticketing.
All the Orlando Peoplemover does is get you from the boarding/arrival gate part of the airport to the baggage-ticketing part of the airport. It's not like Airtrain which brings you to a transportation hub. The Las Vegas Airport has a similar peoplemover. It better be free since it's an essential part of the airport boarding process. New York's airports don't have seperate buildings for boarding and ticketing/baggage.
The closest thing the Orlando peoplemover is to Airtrain is that it is similar to the airport circulator portion of AirTrain (which is also free), but it's still not really the same as New York doesn't have seperate buildings for arrival/departure and baggage/ticketing.
Mark
So my rivised question is this: are there heavy subways other than SEPTA's Broad-Ridge spur, MARTA's Bankhead branch, or Cleveland RTA's red line that run one-car or two-car consists?
Mark
Robert
-- Ed Sachs
R-32.
R-32.
I think PATCO in Philadelphia runs 2 car trains at times too, can anybody second this?
During the period when they were doing a lot of trackwork, and the trains ran every 20-30 minutes through the day [on weekends only], PATCO ran 4 car trains.
The same situation existed in Los Angeles for the first couple years of their Red Line.
Also the morning and afternoon peaks have completely different natures. In the morning evryone is trying to get in as little as possible before 9am (or whatever). In the afternoon, you might head to a bar with your workmates, or go shopping, so the crowds are rather more dispersed over a few hours.
Culver shuttle was also three cars. The Bay Ridge shuttle from 36th to 65th was one car, however (pre-1940).
The CTA Skokie Swift (mentioned in some other posts) is two cars maximum also. Other CTA lines run two cars based on ridership (except maybe Red/HoDaR)--usually early morning and late night.
That's all I know about outside of NYC.
Matt
Robert
R-32.
Posted on:6/1/04 2:47:11 PM
Due to a customer injury at Times Square Station on the , north-bound trains are operating express beween 34th Street and 57th Street until futher notice.Oh well, the more the merrier.
Please explain: How many; what do they look like; etc.
I got the 4 cards this AM when I purchased 4 fun passes at the TM store. The players are not named on the cards.
It is part of a MasterCard/Mets/MetroCard promotion:
http://www.mta.info/metrocard/promos/mets/index.html
You can see pictures of the cards there.
Ouch. Do you have a use for 4 fun passes?
Because of occasional family obligations I am sometimes away from the City during the week. That makes a 30 day card not worth it for me. A few times a month I have personal business during the day and it requires me to go during business hours and then return to work. That is when the fun pass comes in handy.
I have used the 30 day and unfortunately I have been called away for a week at a time. I decided I can't take the chance.
I have a few like that.
Not according to the website.
#5/5a "Bronx expansion" will be the first dual language cards.
Robert
Robert
Not a 747? Is it an A340?
They'll use your photos, then hook you up & send ya up the river, with no hope of parole.....ever.
Seriously....I'd say you'd be okay....& then hopefully take a good look at this BS they're proposing.
Jimmymc25
You get sent to Guantanamo, no lawyer, no trial, held indefinitely without trial because you are a terrorist threat. If anything you'll be placed before a military tribunal then sentenced to 20 years to life in a military prison. On the plus side, you do get a complimentary Koran, a prayer mat and three square Halal meals every day. And if you like having naked guys piled on top of you or being led around on a dog leash by a female soldier, you're in luck!
You're an idiot.
Yep.
Some men would pay good money for that.
or being led around on a dog leash by a female soldier
See above.
And if you like having naked guys piled on top of you
or being led around on a dog leash by a female [and/or male] soldier
Half of the senate *and* the committee "investigating" it; are either doing or fantasizing about doing it. (not to mention a sizable percentage of senior major corporate executives) ;^)
No. The maximum proposed penalty is a $25 fine. I don't think the proposed ban makes any sense, but they're not threatening any big penalties.
The victim was a model and she is at Bellevue, expected to recover soon. At least she is OK!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
On an unrelated note, the B train went down, again.
3 straight Q trains at Newkirk, with the 3rd being express. Then, nothing coming up. There was finally a gap train added because a B was sitting at Ocean Parkway waiting to enter Brighton Beach.
There were double Q trains at Kings Highway. I stayed on the local thinking we were going to keep the interval. Technically we were first because our local train was passed by the Qx at H.
Lo and behold we got into Brighton Beach first, and through to Coney Island first. The express train was sitting just outside Brighton Beach. It was reminiscent to the old pre-2/22 pattern where Qx's would sit there for 10 minutes or more.
CG
I realize that. I was only wondering whether I was alone.
CG
Mark
I certainly doubt it. Bullets can move in strange ways once they enter the body. A bullet fired into the shoulder could easily enter the chest and be fatal. Not to mention that the shoulder joint itself is complex and easily damaged.
Her modeling career is pretty much over because she now has a scar on her body. How about thanking a higher authority that her vital signs are stable at least?
But why bother when there are thousands of unscarred models looking for work? Market forces don't exactly work in the model's favor in ths particular business.
Mark
Mark
This I did not know. It is VERY interesting!
Actually, if you take the inside of bread and applied your saliva to it (chewing it), you put it over the wound that is healing. It draws out any poison inside the possible infected area like drawing salve. Of course you should not do this until your wound was treated by a doctor first.
Mark
There was even some philanthropist who donated thousands of dollars towards her surgery. A wonderful gesture, but would he have done the same thing for a 76-year-old woman- or man of any age- who might be slashed across the face?
Before you dismiss me as a cynical S.O.B. (charges I won't deny), allow me to say that NO ONE deserves the fate of Ms. Hanson or the young woman on the W train yesterday.
"Shot in the shoulder? She set this whole thing up for free publicity to launch her struggling model/acting career."
You made a valid point about the model Marla Hanson and she was lucky by the grace of God that warm and generous New Yorkers donated towards her pastic surgery. This is far different than something think the shooting was intentional to make other people feel sorry for her. In no way you are even cynical, must less a S.O.B.
Odd thing too while we are in this subject. There were two shootings within six months on the Broadway line, both were on (W)ild trains.
See: http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0203/21/lkl.00.html
CG
Bob
But given that Red Line trains often fill in for genuine NYCTA, then no surprise that KCBS wouldn't have a clue WHICH Times Square train the shooting occurred on. After all, you guys only have ONE "real" subway - everything else is pretty much surface lines ... like the old days without the nice red paint and poles up top.
All kidding aside, I'm still alive and well and have been busy.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Female Model Shot In Shoulder On Subway
POSTED: 3:23 pm EDT June 1, 2004
UPDATED: 3:26 pm EDT June 1, 2004
NEW YORK -- A 22-year-old female model was shot in the shoulder while riding the W train in midtown Tuesday.
The victim says a man she did not know approached her on the train between the 34th Street and 42nd Street stations and shot her once in the shoulder.
She was taken to Bellevue Hospital in stable condition. There is an active manhunt under way for the shooter and police are talking to witnesses who were on the train.
And there were no complaints about photographers and photo stops.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://subway.com.ru/flush-astoria/pages/flush-astor-07.htm
VENDING MACHINE REMOVAL
Vending machines will be eliminated from subway stations unless prospective vending contractors can give the Transit Authority definite assurances about the reliability, cleanliness and regularity of servicing of their machines.
Any future vending operator must find ways to keep machines vandal-proof. In addition to providing assurances that equipment would be in working order at all times, a future vending contractor will be required to meet rigid standards for the cleanliness and appearance of each installation.
Accordingly, entirely new design concepts will be required for any vending equipment that may go into our subways. A concern that seeks a vending contract must be prepared to provide acceptable designs for its equipment within fixed, well-lighted modules, which the vendor will be required to keep clean and at top operating efficiency.
The company which operated all subway vending equipment for the past 20 years, had been on a month-to-month basis since its last contract expired on January 30, 1974. The company notified the Authority on May 29 that it would not extend its contract after June 30. Removal of its 6,000 pieses of equipment has been completed. For the past two years the Transit Authority received only the contractual minimum of $150,000 annually. The cmpany's equipment was in about 95 per cent of the Authority's 462 stations. Some 3,000 public lockers, also operated on subway stations, are not affected by the termination of this vending contract.
---------------------------------------------------
To my knowledge, the machines, once removed, were never replaced. A new contractor was never found.
David
David
If the lockers had stayed, they would have been removed by now. A public locker would be a better place to leave a bomb (dirty or chemical) than a subway tunnel.
This is why they never found another contractor. There's NO WAY you can make a machine that's vandal-proof.
PS. and not to mention all the photos you could take without being hasseled.......
I just looked at MTA of Los Angeles website about a new orange line
under construction.
Does anyone know about this? If so, will the metro orange be ligth rail like the blue or green lines or subway/elevated like the existing Metro Red line?
oh!...it's somewhat like bus rapid transit on an elevated overpass.
OK American Pig, thanks!
Much of the Orange line will run on the right-of-way of the old Pacific Electric San Fernando Valley line. And I hadn't heard that it will replace the Ventura Blvd Rapid Line (line 750).
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry,RebirdR33
You are a beast. An unstoppable force of photographic nature.
The ACMU are on a dedicated cycle with two or three revenue runs per day. The rest of the time they are idle. It would not make any sense to put the new cars on an ACMU cycle and have them sit unused for a good portion of the day.
Nevertheless the days are numbered for the last of the New York Central cars so don't delay too long in going for a ride.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The interesting thing is that after the line was closed the first part that was removed was the track to the La Ronde Amusement Area which is where the shops where located and the cars stabled. The cars were moved to Ile St Helene and stored on the open track.
Thanks for any information.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I remember reading that bulletin too Dave. At the time the SIRT only had 48 cars on the roster and was hard pressed to protect the service. Apparently some one thought that the 48 Expo Express cars would nicely replace the SIRT cars. However the Expo Express cars where made up into eight six car trains and only the the two end cars had motorman's control at the outer end. The rest were blind motors.SIRT in those days usually ran two car trains in the off-peak. In the rush they ran a combination of two,three, four and on rare occasions five car trains depending on what was available.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Think Washington, DC
Thanks, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry,RedbirdR33
We drove up from Pompton Plains via the Thruway and Northway (I-87). Unfortunately, the middle part didn't get finished until after Expo ended. There was a major detour along US 9. By August, when we went up again for my cousin's wedding, a portion of new highway had been completed.
Another Expo Express fact: after Expo closed and became Man and His World, the express was cut back from City Pier to the first island stop. In addition, a station was added along the straightaway leading to the Jacques Cartier Bridge. Trains used to build up a good head of steam along that straightaway before the station was put in. There was a stop at Habitat '67, but only in one direction and it wasn't open during either of our visits in '67.
Watchful rail riders add to security
This opinion article was written by Steve Dunham of Spotsylvania
County, who chairs the board of directors of the Virginia Association
of Railway Patrons. Write him c/o Commuter Crossroads, The Free
Lance-Star, 616 Amelia St., Fredericksburg, Va. 22401. Or e-mail
literalman@aol.com. This item was published May 30, 2004, in the
Free Lance-Star.
What's to stop terrorists from bombing commuter trains in
Washington, as they did in Madrid, Spain, on March 11? Tighter
security plus watchful employees, passengers and railfans.
On May 23, the Department of Homeland Security directed U.S.
passenger railroads to use dogs to detect bombs in baggage, in
terminals and on trains, and to enlist the help of passengers and
employees in spotting suspicious behavior or unattended property.
This helpful advice from the federal government ignores the fact that
passenger-carrying lines have been doing just that for a long time.
Since Sept. 11, 2001, rail systems across America have been
encouraging passengers to keep their eyes open for anything
suspicious, and most passenger railroads started boosting security as
long ago as 1995, when terrorists used sarin gas on the Tokyo
subway. New York City has been stepping up transit security since the
1993 World Trade Center bombing.
Virginia Railway Express has been an industry leader in implementing
security measures such as guards, disaster drills and evacuation
plans. Dave Snyder, VRE's superintendent of railroad operations,
safety and security, has encouraged passengers to be on the lookout
for anything suspicious.
The thousands of eyes and ears provided by passengers are going to
be crucial to preventing a Madrid-style attack in the United States. A
rail system, unlike an airline, has so many points of access that
security measures in themselves are not nearly enough.
For proof, look at the Transportation Security Administration's new
pilot program to screen rail passengers. Beginning May 4, Amtrak and
Maryland Rail Commuter passengers have been passing an explosives
detector before boarding trains at one station (New Carrollton, Md.)
and during rush hours only. Passengers on the Washington Metro,
which shares the station, aren't being screened at all. You don't need
a criminal mind to spot a few holes in that security measure.
However, just as Americans on an airplane will never again sit quietly
through a hijacking, anyone leaving a suitcase or backpack behind on
a train is going to get instant attention, and that's where alert
passengers may be able to thwart an attack.
However, two rail systems have hit the headlines in the past two
weeks over misguided efforts to prevent photography. New Jersey
Transit, which was building canine bomb-detection teams before the
Department of Homeland Security started issuing directives in that
regard, now wants to forbid anyone from taking pictures of its
property without a permit, and the New York City Transit Authority
has decided to require permits for photography on the subways.
Civil liberties advocates were quick to pounce on the restrictions, and
I agree. I've taken plenty of train pictures for columns and articles
and just for fun. I see no legal basis for banning photography on
public property. On transit authority property, I can see the rationale
for issuing permits; when I lived in Boston I had a photographer's
permit for the transit system.
But there's another side to this: Discouraging photography is
counterproductive to security. Common sense says that cameras will
discourage crime, including terrorism. But in general, some railroads
and even local police, particularly in the Northeast, have been
discouraging train buffs from watching trains or taking pictures. I'm a
casual, now-and-then train watcher, but there are people who spend
hours every weekend watching trains, often carrying cameras,
notebooks, maybe binoculars, and they notice the slightest thing out
of the ordinary. If I were responsible for security on a railroad, which
has such extensive property and so many vulnerable points that it is
impossible to patrol, I wouldn't be discouraging these people.
To its credit, I have never heard of VRE discouraging railfans who
practice safety, who stay clear of tracks, trains and private property. I
often see train watchers at the Alexandria station in the evening, and
a local rail history group sometimes holds meetings right on the
platform.
If someone places a suitcase on the platform and leaves the station,
or parks a bomb-laden vehicle under a bridge, or attempts some kind
of sabotage, chances are these people will be the first to notice. I
hope they are carrying cameras.
June 1, 2004
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=717520
Can you just vote "NO" and let it go at that.
Or you could write in Homer Simpson.
Elias
Then again, there's rumors that the old lever-crankers MIGHT be gone by November, replaced by Diebold electronic units. The DIEBOLD system has *NO* provisions for "write-ins" ... how CONVENIENT. :(
Unless something changes, the Diebold machines won't be in use ANYWHERE in the country this fall... a panel of Federal judges, ruling unanimously in a California case with far-reaching implications, has invalidated the use of any machine that does not provide a paper trail.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=253802&category=SCHENECTADY&BCCode=LOCAL&newsdate=6/3/2004
AND... If you do open the write-in window, you cannot close it and use a leaver instead.
Why can't you write in on a computer screen, UPS does it all the time.
Elias
Handwriting recognition is still a digital stillbirth. And while "grafitti" (the handwriting madness for Palm) works OK, the PROBLEM is that you have to write in a way that the COMPUTER understands, they can't deal with HUMAN handwriting. After all these years, STILL no real progress. WATCH your UPS driver and ask them to show you how it works. You'll see that it's QUITE unnatural, and the penstrokes required to get a valid character into it is WEIRD. After proper training though, it's a natural FOR THEM.
Voters? Hell - we're IN this mess because they can't stick a pin into the right HOLE. Now we're going to ask them to WRITE? :)
I have the problem solved though - sample ballot here:
http://nationalcorridors.org/df/df06012004.shtml#Towing
--Mark
David
--Mark
In early 1980, in an effort to save money, the MTA proposed to eliminate the special half fare program for the elderly during peak hours, and the Sunday half-fare program for all riders. Hundreds protested this proposal. The MTA planned to save $44 million with the elimination of these fare programs.
It ended, as David stated, on May 1st, 1980. $44 million is a lot of money.
--Mark
On the lower level at the front of the platform, it seems someone might have set the old inactive plywood NYPD Booth on fire. I passed through the station around 7PM this evening and the stench of the fire was lingering pretty thick still. The front of the old tower was scorched, as well as the ceiling. Light fixtures and wires across the ceiling were melted. Quite a bit of damage, though stucturally everything seemed fine and the area was not roped off.
The old NYPD booth there has been inactive for quite awhile, and the last time I saw it, it had it's plastic window smashed, graffiti in it, and a pile of trash on the floor. today nothing is there except a clear spot on the floor where the booth once stood.
Got Security?
What is suspicious about this fire is that there is almost allways atleast one cop in this station and a precinct of sorts along the trestle structure that once led to the second ave el.
I have noticed that better and airconditioned booths are being installed at some stations. Might this have been a form of "Blus lightning"?
I was out there tonight and it's a shame that just five years after being renovated this station is now such a mess.
It's more than a little crazy that (at least so far as I can tell) the booth burned like that - with all the cops around that station most of the time, and the likelihood that someone just threw a stray cigerette butt in there on the low side, it makes me wonder if it was intentional. Kinda scary if it was.
:)
Since they are similar in size to an IRT car, maybe I can tell how it is to ride and how well well the arrangement works by hearing about IRT cars: How is it to stand in an IRT car? Do you trip on people's feet (who are seated)? Is there enough room mid-car (between the doors) for a sizeable group? Do you like sitting facing into the car? Some say that it gives a more panoramic view, but you cannot make eye contact with the person in front of you and all you will see are people's lower portions when there are standees.
TIA
Matt
CTA cars are 2" taller on the exterior, but 3 feet shorter than IRT cars. They should have bought the stainless steel straps from the Redbirds and installed them on the 3200's (and 3600's to be built). Would have been a excellent recycling program.
When the Purple Line ran express south of Belmont, how did they prevent it from getting stuck behind Brown Line locals?
The Brown ran more infrequently, and ran skip-stop south of Belmont. When they got rid of A-B service, they also got more frequent, and the Purples catching up to the Brown is part of the reason they went local, also to relieve the Brown's overcrowding.
Click Here for Story
Note: And they think a Photography Ban is the answer!If they can't stop A person from walking on the subway with A gun. They seriously have to think Is Photography that dangerous?
ANOTHER MODEL????? There was just one shot earlier today and there were like at least three threads about it! This is UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!
:)
Well, when *was* the last time some one got shot on the subway?
Elias
Click Here For Story
This is the Address if the link doesn't work!
http://www.wnbc.com/news/3342951/detail.html
http://www.wnbc.com/mta/index.html
http://www.wnbc.com/slideshow/community/3012739/detail.html?qs=;s=3;p=community;dm=ss;w=320
Silly me, I always thought that trolleys were replaced by busses.
Very accurate!
http://www.wnbc.com/slideshow/community/3012739/detail.html?qs=;s=6;p=community;dm=ss;w=320
Huh?
http://www.wnbc.com/slideshow/community/3012739/detail.html?qs=;s=8;p=community;dm=ss;w=320
You didn't know the pentagon shape in the center (that had 5 sides)
and 1 side stood for each borough, Notch?
In 1954, the track between Church and Ditmus avenues opened, making it easier for people in the Bronx to get to Coney Island.
Eh, what about the other 3 tracks between Church and Ditmas Avenues.
DUH!
http://www.wnbc.com/slideshow/community/3012739/detail.html?qs=;s=3;p=community;dm=ss;w=320
http://www.wnbc.com/slideshow/community/3012739/detail.html?qs=;s=7;p=community;dm=ss;w=320
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=717520
Can you just vote "NO" and let it go at that.
Or you could write in Homer Simpson.
Elias
Then again, there's rumors that the old lever-crankers MIGHT be gone by November, replaced by Diebold electronic units. The DIEBOLD system has *NO* provisions for "write-ins" ... how CONVENIENT. :(
Unless something changes, the Diebold machines won't be in use ANYWHERE in the country this fall... a panel of Federal judges, ruling unanimously in a California case with far-reaching implications, has invalidated the use of any machine that does not provide a paper trail.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=253802&category=SCHENECTADY&BCCode=LOCAL&newsdate=6/3/2004
AND... If you do open the write-in window, you cannot close it and use a leaver instead.
Why can't you write in on a computer screen, UPS does it all the time.
Elias
Handwriting recognition is still a digital stillbirth. And while "grafitti" (the handwriting madness for Palm) works OK, the PROBLEM is that you have to write in a way that the COMPUTER understands, they can't deal with HUMAN handwriting. After all these years, STILL no real progress. WATCH your UPS driver and ask them to show you how it works. You'll see that it's QUITE unnatural, and the penstrokes required to get a valid character into it is WEIRD. After proper training though, it's a natural FOR THEM.
Voters? Hell - we're IN this mess because they can't stick a pin into the right HOLE. Now we're going to ask them to WRITE? :)
I have the problem solved though - sample ballot here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/02/nyregion/02tunnels.html?pagewanted=2
I have to laugh when I hear people calling this "pork barrel." In Alaska, they recently got $1 billion to build a bridge to serve a community of 500 people.
Tell me exactly how a ban is required on amateur photography but the Times can run this article, describing exactly the safety and security features that are or are not in place in the Penn tunnels?!
--Mark
I can see where this might be a security problem, but beyoind that, how about *repairing* those tunnels.
My think on it is to simply CLOSE them during the weekend and get the job done.
Actually, you only have to close on tube at a time, ut even shutting down NYP on weekends isn't all that bad, is it?
Elias
My guess is that this is precisely what they have in mind --- and it's because they're limited to late night and weekend work that it will take so long.
A similar project inside the Holland Tunnel (at least, it looks similar) has been going on for quite a while now.
I don’t know whether one tube would suffice even during weekends.
It does, although just barely. They try to "fleet" trains so that a half-dozen or so outbound trains (NJT and Amtrak mixed) run in quick succession, followed by a similar number of inbound trains. Delays don't usually get over five minutes outbound.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It does, although just barely. They try to "fleet" trains so that a half-dozen or so outbound trains (NJT and Amtrak mixed) run in quick succession, followed by a similar number of inbound trains. Delays don't usually get over five minutes outbound.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What Chris implied (for those unaware) is that tunnel work has been ongoing for quite some time on weekends. One tunnel is closed for working and the other handles all the traffic. That's why 7 day per week Amtrak trains have a different schedule on Sat/Sun than on week days.
With the single tunnel, they run trains in one direction for 25 minutes, then a 5 minute hiatus to clear the tunnel, then the other way for 25 minutes. This means that an hour's worth of trains in one direction have to get through the tunnel in 25 minutes. Each 25 minutes sees two NJT NEC trains, a NY&LB train, and an M&E Midtown Direct. That's just NJT. During the same 25 minutes, Amtrak can run a Regional, an Acela or Metroliner, a Keystone and/or long distance train (Florida, Carolinas). They operate with three minute headways, so if a train misses its alloted departure time by a minute or two, it could have to wait up to an hour for its next slot.
Would YOU walk down a tunnel with no escape paths to snap such a nifty photo unless you had ASSURANCES that there wasn't going to be a train coming at you? :)
1) When was there last a serious accident in any of the tunnels into NY Penn Station?
2) When was there last a serious accident on the entire line between Philly 30th St and Boston South?
However, reality as I see it rarely makes expedient politics.
The command line prompt is still there, though you have to find it.
Run cmd.exe from the Start…Run menu. You will then be able to format what you like.
And how doesn’t fdisk work on really large drives? How big is really large? I repartitioned a 120GB drive a few months ago under XP.
Also, a GUI version of format is available on the right click menu in Windows file manager.
You cannot Format or Fdisk the drive with the active operating system on it.
If you boot from a floppy disk and then try it (presuming the commands are on the floppy disk) yes you will reformat the HDD.
When I build a new computer for my LAN station later this summer, it will have PowerQuesd PartitionMagic (The last release before Symantic bought out the outfit), and I will have an empty HDD Tray on the front of the box. Just put the hard drive to be serviced in there, and I can do anything I want with it.
Elias
PS. With the Emergency Disks from PartitionMagic comes Caldera DOS 7.0 with a dos version of the GUI PM, and Format and Fdisk comands. These commands are a little different from the MS DOS version, and to my way of thinking easier to use.
I can boot any computer with them and then ditz with the disks.
Elias
Besides, the correct syntax is FORMAT C: /Q
Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.
S:\>format /?
Formats a disk for use with Windows XP.
FORMAT volume [/FS:file-system] [/V:label] [/Q] [/A:size] [/C] [/X]
FORMAT volume [/V:label] [/Q] [/F:size]
FORMAT volume [/V:label] [/Q] [/T:tracks /N:sectors]
FORMAT volume [/V:label] [/Q]
FORMAT volume [/Q]
volume Specifies the drive letter (followed by a colon),
mount point, or volume name.
/FS:filesystem Specifies the type of the file system (FAT, FAT32, or NTFS).
/V:label Specifies the volume label.
/Q Performs a quick format.
/C NTFS only: Files created on the new volume will be compressed
by default.
/X Forces the volume to dismount first if necessary. All opened
handles to the volume would no longer be valid.
/A:size Overrides the default allocation unit size. Default settings
are strongly recommended for general use.
NTFS supports 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16K, 32K, 64K.
FAT supports 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16K, 32K, 64K,
(128K, 256K for sector size > 512 bytes).
FAT32 supports 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16K, 32K, 64K,
(128K, 256K for sector size > 512 bytes).
Note that the FAT and FAT32 files systems impose the
following restrictions on the number of clusters on a volume:
FAT: Number of clusters <= 65526
FAT32: 65526 < Number of clusters < 4177918
Format will immediately stop processing if it decides that
the above requirements cannot be met using the specified
cluster size.
NTFS compression is not supported for allocation unit sizes
above 4096.
/F:size Specifies the size of the floppy disk to format (1.44)
/T:tracks Specifies the number of tracks per disk side.
/N:sectors Specifies the number of sectors per track.
S:\>
Thank god it doesn’t work!
It's a very strange concept. Network drives become local drives if you are sitting on the server console. So I guess there is no need to "format network drives", unless you happen to be remotely admining a server and it happens to crash. But I think in those cases you would travel to the server site and replace the disc before you formatted it anyway.
Concepts like formatting no longer applies, since all the drives are factory low-level formatted anyway, and now with RAID and stuff, you are not really creating the structure of the disc track-by-track and sector-by-sector anymore, you are just creating the file system.
I guess, there is no need to format a network drive. Just ask a Novell consultant to do it.
AEM7
Federal Transit Administration Approves $490.7 Million Funding Pact for Light Rail Extension to East Los Angeles
I'm glad to hear this. Hopefully when it's built and starts providing good transit to the residents of East Los Angeles, it will ease crowding on some of the bus routes in that area. I know it won't make the BRU shut up, but it might take the wind out of the sails of their anti-rail campaigns.
Mark
To have funded the extension out to the suburban communities in the foothills while turning down the extension to East LA would have smelled very strongly of discrimination.
Especially when you consider that more people are transit-dependent in East LA than in Pasadena. The crowding on the buses proves that ridership is there, while the Pasadena branch of the Gold Line seemed oddly roomy even at rush hour when I rode it.
Given all this, I can agree with the BRU as far as they claim that poorer neighborhoods are underserved, and deserve a bigger piece of the transit-funding pie. Where I disagree with them is when they seem to think more buses are the only answer to their transit problems. So devoted to buses, they see any rail taking money from bus service, and go so far as to oppose even rail that serves the people they claim to be lobbying for!
That's why I want to see this line built. I want the riders of East LA to see that rail is good for them as well as more affluent people, so that they won't listen to the BRU's blind opposition to anything rail.
Mark
LA Metro - http://www.metro.net
Why no more red line? http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%22red+line%22+methane+yaroslavsky&btnG=Google+Search
That would have been a great idea. Extend the red line east into East Los Angeles, and then form Wilshire/Western extend it westward to UCLA and maybe points beyond. Then you'd have a subway that connected the region.
Mark
That had been precisely the idea, no? But first further construction west along the Wilshire alignment was banned, allegedly for geological concerns--I think at the federal level?-- and then LA voted in a referendum to ban local funding for new heavy-rail subway construction, kiboshing the East LA Red Line. The Gold Line project-- and the Exposition Blvd Blue Line project, parallel to Wilshire a couple miles south-- are the best LA MTA can do under the current parameters. Expo's initial segment will go to Culver City and the final project is intended to continue west to Santa Monica, but a spur to UCLA via either Westwood Blvd or the 405 seems like a no-brainer.
The Valley alignment now being developed as the 'Orange Line' busway (discussed in a parallel thread) was likewise intended as a future extension of the North Hollywood branch of the Red Line, I believe, whereas now it'll just be a feeder.
Mark
Mark
;-) Alargule
shit fuck
The filter was turned off about two weeks ago.I believe there was a filter-free post about this on BusTalk.
Matt
Profanity is an interesting subject.
A real explitive is generated by a different part of the brain than that which forms the rest of your lexicon.
They are words that, when used as explitives, andr not thought about, but rather just said.
Hit your thumb with a hammer and you will exclaim "Oh Poo!", without any forethought on your part.
Used in any other context, all it does is demonstrate a lack of vocabulary, maners, and respect both of self and others.
A person ought to be taught proper manners, and how to show respect for others. Once I was the only man working in an office of women. I heard them to admonish one and other to watch their language, there was a man present. : )
Anyway, you do not present yourself well when you choose to use foul language in your normal daily intercourse.
Elias
Think for a moment.
The answer, of course, is "talk".
Or, if you're willing to be slightly vulgar, "pork."
I'm sick of this country's puritanical attitude against language and sexuality. A movie can have tons of graphic violence and gore, and it will be rated PG. Yet if there's the slightest bit of sex or foul language, it immediately gets an R rating.
It should be the other way around. I'm not one of those people who rails against Hollywood violence, but violence is worse than foul language and/or brief nudity.
A movie can use the "f word" and avoid an R rating, so long as the word is used only once, as an exclamation, and not along with mother.
Something's seriously wrong with this. The misuse of a word is allowed, but the use of the word to mean what it means isn't...
We don't hafta wear the dress and the shoes while doing that, do we? I'm as adventurous as the next guy, but for me that's a bridge too far.
Your pal,
Dotty
Your pal,
Fred
"If I only had a brain"
"If I only had a heart"
"If I only had COURAGE"
And THEN..."We are off the see the Wizard. The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, BECAUSE BECAUSE...."
I was really just curious.
-Chris
Thanks,
Bill
wayne
Feel free to repost the information anywhere and everywhere - not just transit sites, but all NYC photography related websites.
Download and forward the press relase to your favorite news outlet, or create your own press release.
To state it simply, this protest is your protest, and can be as big as you make it. Spending 10 minutes out of your busy day to spread the word around the web and to the press can and will yield results.
I'm going to try to do as much as I can, but there's no way I can do it alone. Spread the word, come out and be social. It should be a fun trip.
Your handy-dandy list of people to mail it (and your "public comment") to:
(name)
(title--for the Chairman, Vice Chairs only)
MTA Board of Directors
347 Madison Avenue
New York, NY 10017
Peter S. Kalikow, Chairman
David S. Mack, Vice Chairman
Edward B. Dunn, Vice Chairman
Andrew Albert
John H. Banks III
James F. Blair
Nancy Shevell Blakeman
Anthony J. Bottalico
Michael J. Canino
Barry Feinstein
Lawrence W. Gamache
James H. Harding Jr.
Susan Kupferman
Mark D. Lebow
James L. McGovern
Mark Page
Ernest J. Salerno
Andrew M. Saul
James L. Sedore Jr.
James S. Simpson
Edward A. Vrooman
Ed Watt
Alfred E. Werner
-----------
Other MTA Honchos (Not Board of Directors)
(same address as above)
Christopher P. Boylan
Deputy Executive Director/Corporate and Community Affairs
Catherine A. Rinaldi
Deputy Executive Director/General Counsel
William A. Morange
Deputy Executive Director/Director of Security
Katherine N. Lapp
Executive Director
Thomas J. Savage
Chief Operating Officer
Lawrence G. Reuter
President, MTA New York City Transit
----------------------
There's also an independent Office of the Inspector General that "identifies mismanagement" within the MTA that could be interested:
Matthew D. Sansverie
Inspector General
James Bono
Deputy Inspector General/Intergovernmental and Public Affairs Unit
Office of the Inspector General
Metropolitan Transportation Authority
111 West 40th Street, 5th Floor, New York, NY 10018.
Partially insane on my part, but worth something.
Your pal,
Fred
The plot thickens.
By the time we reached Bayside, the train was pretty crowded, one row of seats per person, but still, pretty crowded considering this is 5:30AM.
Got to NYP, ran up to the E just as it pulled in, took that to 7th Av, got the B downtown to Rockefeller. Got out of the station to hear Gretchen Wilson singing Homewrecker. The line wasn't too long, only about 20 people. Great show, got an autograph.
Got the Q32 back to NYP....BIG MISTAKE! I just made the 9:51Am train back to PW by about a minute.
As we got closer to either the former Elmhurst or Corona station, we started to really slow down. Eventually we stopped. Got word we had to wait for the westbound to pass. I was confused b/c that line is 2 tracks til Great Neck. I knew there had to be a good reason for it though. 5 minutes later, the westbound passed and we proceeded to switch onto the westbound track. As we got closer to Flushing, I saw why. Sperry Rail Car. I guess trackwork. This had probably been going on all morning, b/c when I called, my mom seemed really pissed about something. Probably that her train was held up by this.
We went eastbound on the westbound track til about Bayside I think. There's a switch just west of the Clearview, I think we took that(I was dozing off, got only 3 hrs of sleep). Got to PW bout 5-10 minutes late, no big deal. Walked to school to go to only 2 classes(rolls eyes).
Saw lots of NYBS action in midtown on 5th av. Throgs Neck, Morris Park, and Pelham buses galore.
One question though. Does LIRR run mostly M7s during the day? That's all I saw on my way home(including the train I was on, the one we waited for, and 3 or 4 others that I saw pass). I think I saw maybe one M1/M3.
BTW, the train going back to Port Washington at 9:51am had a good amount of people on it too. I was glad cuz we skipped Murray Hill and Aurburndale, saved us some time.
Your pal,
Fred
You're really something else, Thurston.
Only if you'd like to obtain one via eBay :-)
the falsity of the proposed photo ban - and a challenge to expose it
Group: nyc.transit
Date: Wed, Jun 2, 2004, 2:25am (EDT+4)
From: caribejoe@REMOVEmycaribbean.info
I sent the following email to the TA a few minutes ago . . .
About 10 / 12 years ago I was given a summons on a NYC subway platform for taking photos of a police action. That same day a woman was also given a summons, under the same law, for the similar offense of photographing defective and dangerous live electric wires at an uptown west side station. In both cases, each of those "offenses" actually promoted the public good.
The next day, newspapers made those incidents front page news and tv news reports put them on the 6pm and 10 pm broadcasts. Both summons were quickly voided by an embarrassed police department and Transit Authority.
Your proposed law is for the alleged purpose, as stated in your own documents, of promoting the "public sense of security." That is an verbatim quote of your stated purpose of the new law.
First of all, let's look at that language. You are not doing this to enhance real security but merely to enhance the public's perception of security. You are only interested in appearances, not reality.
Even then, this new law fails to do that, as the experience of the two incidents demonstrates.
The "offense" for which I was charged, making photographs of police arresting some trouble-makers did more in that moment for the "public sense of security" than might be accomplished by years of repression of that right of a citizen to document and publish what happens in public. Those who saw my published photos got the message that the cops were on the trains, doing their jobs and doing them well. The fact that I was a journalist at that time is not relevant. First Amendment rights are not proscribed for only those employed as journalists. FA Rights belong to everyone.
And the second incident that same day, verifies the effect of the exercise of that FA Right on both the "public sense of security" and the reality of security.
The woman took photos in a narrow busy stairway to show to them to TA bureaucrats who had ignored her phoned and written warnings of the hazardously exposed live wires. When she presented them with the damning photos, the response was to attempt to silence her with the charge of a crime. But instead of intimidating her into silence the story got the publicity needed and the wiring was promptly repaired.
All your law will accomplish is to repress both the "public sense of security" and the reality of safety in the subway system.
Further, a common expression applies: "Locks are for honest people." In other words, no terrorist is going to be deterred by your law. Modern photographic technology empowers anyone to take surreptitious videos anywhere, under any conditions. That's what a terrorist will use. You will never see him do it. Meanwhile you will congratulate yourselves and gull the gullible in to a false "public sense of security."
Therefore, to help you see the folly of your plan (as you might say, "I'm doing this for your own good") I will offer you a challenge. Should you put this law into effect, I will promptly stage a civil disobedience event by appearing in at a preannounced place and time and taking photos.
Since you do not know what I look like, you will never see me do it even if every person in that station or subway car is a police officer. I then will publish those photos on the Internet. Let's see if, after that demonstration, you can continue trying to cozen people into a false "public sense of security" by banning photos after that.
CaribeJoe - Moderator
Non-commercial My Caribbean.Info Forums
Free Caribbean Destination Directories
Free advice from Travel Writers
Post your own trip reports and photos
Hotel and Air Deals and Rough Guide Reports http://www.mycaribbean.info
More power to him.
--Mark
Of course he will, but he reinforced some points I held important and brought up some I hadn't considered. It's good to take a squint at some of these.
Your pal,
Fred
Regards,
Jimmy
Likely. Cubic also developed the MetroCard. The CTA TransitCard is largely identical to the MetroCard. If you look at all of the MEMs (Mini-MVMs) in the subway, they also have a disc for a contactless smart card. I assume the SmartLink will go online once every path station has had the new turnstiles (like those at the WTC) installed.
And where would such a system be used in Houston?
They also have graphics on their cards ... good for collectors [grin]
http://nationalcorridors.org/df/df06012004.shtml#Towing
RKO Madison Theater, Ridgewood : Wyckoff Avenue, BMT Myrtle :
Images 1409 and 6847
Parthenon Theater, Ridgewood : Wyckoff Avenue, BMT Myrtle :
Image 1409, upper left.
RKO Madison Theater, Ridgewood : Knickerbocker Avenue, BMT Myrtle
Images 2196, 2198, at vanishing point.
Rivoli Theater, Bushwick : Knickerbocker Avenue, BMT Myrtle
Image 6608, possibly at left edge.
Broadway Theater, Bushwick : Myrtle Avenue, BMT Jamaica
Possibly only one image of this station, showing an exposed brown brick wall, adjacent to where this theater once stood.
Casino Theater : Kosciuszko St. BMT Jamaica : Image 3033
RKO Bushwick, Loews Gates : Gates Avenue, BMT Jamaica :
Images 2637, 25755, 26229. Image 2637 may also show the Monroe Theater which once stood opposite the RKO Bushwick, across Howard Avenue from it, at 4 Howard Avenue.
Loews Willard Theater, Woodhaven : Woodhaven Blvd. BMT Jamaica (facing east) : images 4593, 4450, 5631, 2215, 2121, 2136, 2168, and 2109 : all at vanishing point. Pink brick building with dark gray sloped roof, now Cordon Bleu Caterers.
Loews Hillside : Sutphin Blvd. BMT Jamaica :
Images 4516, 4538, 6327, 2233. Based on the release dates of the films whose titles appear on the marquee in image 6327 ("Let No Man Write My Epitaph" starring Shelley Winters and "Hell Is A City") and the large piles of snow on the sidewalk, the date of that image, November 1964, appears to be incorrect, and should rather be about February 6, 1961, a few days after the February 4, 1961 blizzard that struck New York City.
The titles on the marquee in image 6327 came from some detective work on the Cinema Treasures website.
Loews Valencia, RKO Alden : 168th Street, BMT Jamaica :
Alden : 6367, 6397, 24041 (with Valencia)
Valencia : 3021, 3022, 12230, 5557, 4642, 26369
Ambassador Theater, Brownsville Bklyn : Saratoga Avenue, Brooklyn IRT elevated : images 2785, 3234, 3356, 3848, 8102, 12293.
Loews Oriental : 18th Avenue BMT West End Line : Images 5262, 5432 (upper left).
RKO Keith Richmond Hill : 121st Street BMT Jamaica : Image 24492, to right of upper right corner of front of train. Building with peaked roof and water tower.
Boro Park Theater : 50th Street BMT West End : Image 26346 ?
46th Street Theater : Fort Hamilton Pkwy BMT West End : Images 4809, 2532, 1926.
Bliss Theater, Sunnyside, Queens : 46th St. IRT Flushing Line : Image 510, mid-left edge.
Corona Plaza Theater : 103rd St. IRT Flushing : Images 12772, 8028, 8026.
Corona Theater : Junction Blvd. IRT Flushing : Images 4380, 6092, 4333, 4321.
Avenue U Theater : Avenue U, BMT Brighton : Images 2321, 4602, 4784, 4526. Crested brick building visible above train.
Colonial Theater, 1746 Broadway, Bklyn : Halsey St. BMT Jamaica : Images 26237 (upper left front of train), 26236, 26417 (silver roof line near vanishing point). The Colonial is adjacent to the western, Rockaway Avenue end, of the Jamaica-bound Chauncey Street platform of the BMT Jamaica line. Pulling out of the Manhattan-bound side, looking out the rear of the train, one can see the crest above the northwest end (Rockaway Avenue exit) of the Jamaica-bound platform. Because there are other buildings close up against it, the further away one gets, the better the overall view of it.
Loews Coney island a.k.a. Shore Theater : Stillwell Avenue BMT Culver, Brighton, West End, Sea Beach : Images 6503, 6851, 4987, 4774, 4818, 4880, 5183, 28296.
The above theaters are in Brooklyn and Queens. Please bring to my attention images on this site showing old theaters in Manhattan, the Bronx and Staten Island, or other images showing theaters in Brooklyn and Queens. Thank you.
I bought Smith and Kramer's book on trolleys, "The Brooklyn Queens Transit : From Coney Island To Flushing" for myself as a Father's Day present last yeat, partly because of the Ridgewood and Parthenon Theaters appearing so clearly in the background of the images of trolleys in Ridgewood, Queens, at mid-Bklyn-Queens border.
The photo in the middle of page 47 of "Unifying The Subways" by Kramer is captioned, "This view of the Adams Street station was taken looking east on Myrtle Avenue from Boro Hall". This station was a BMT el station in downtown Bklyn. At its right edge you can see the Tivoli Theater, formerly at 365 Fulton Street, according to "Cinema Tour". It must have stood at the intersection of Myrtle Avenue and Fulton Street, when Myrtle Avenue extended that far west, and Fulton Street extended to the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge, pre-Cadman Plaza.
This intersection no longer exists.
In the newest images section....
I am on Cinema Treasures as "Peter.K", and GP 38 Chris is on there as "Bway".
In a response to my previous and first post on this topic (27 April 2004), "italianguyinsi" advised me to look for the Benson Theater, at 2005-09 86th St. Bklyn, in images of the 20th Avenue Station, BMT West End, but I have not yet found it there.
Yup, that's me! By the way Mark, are you "Mark W" there? It would seem logical.....
Checking the list of Brooklyn theaters from "cinematour" that you so kindly directed me to 22 April 2004, I don't see an "Aster" Theater.
I will have to check the list for Bklyn theaters with a Broadway address in the high 200's or low 300's, and see which (if any) is at
Bway and Havemeyer, via Map Quest.
If you've already done this, please let me know. Thanks.
My dad worked as a young man at the Denmark Liquor Store at Bway and Lexington Avenues, so he especially enjoyed the two images, 31100 and 31079, showing the Bway and Ralph and Lexington Avenues intersection. He said he remembered the Reid's store and piano place shown in the
closer photo.
Images from the past like these recently posted B and QT trolley photos are both a fascination and a frustration to me. A fascination, for obvious reasons which we have both articulated. A frustration, because I can't always identify exactly where those old photos are, for example, because of a blurry or missing street sign. It's like one can only look so far back into the past, in so much detail, before the disorder of the universe, accumulated over time, fuzzes and blurs everything out.
Another good souce for photographs like this are old postcards, there is a postcard show a few times a year at the New Yorker Hotel, I went one year and got a couple of cool vintage ones of Coney Island in the old days and they were not that expensive.
bmtculver
Image #31213:
Cinematreasures.com photo showing The Prospect Theater:
A colleague of mine, to whom I showed image 31213, may have visited the block in question on a field trip for the Gowanus Creek study, and may return with more useful information.
You wrote "IND crossing over Ninth Street". I too thought that at first : 9th Street and 4th Avenue. But the IND Culver Line parallels Ninth Street, and runs between it and 10th Street, between Third and Fourth Avenues. The IND crosses over 9th Street at the Gowanus Canal, then crosses over 2nd 3rd and 4th Avenues before descending into its tunnel east of the 4th Avenue station.
I'll check what avenues 327 Ninth Street is between on MapQuest. Should have done this days ago. Haste makes waste. Sorry.
This was not the RKO Propect in Brooklyn, it was the Loew's Propect Theatre in Queens, located on Main Street at Kissena Boulevard, this building was totaly demolished. Check out CinemaTreasures for more info.
bmtculver
3 streets possibly to be co-named, but the last one is more interesting than the first two... the "SAS" may be coming to lower Manhattan a lot sooner than expected, lol....
Get over it. Co-naming is common all over town.
Second Avenue South actually makes a little sense because it actually provides some information letting you know that it is an extension of Second Avenue, rather than honoring an unknown individual that only a few people know what he or she accomplished.
There are much better ways of honoring people than naming streets after them. It's gotten out of hand. It seems that's half of what the City Council does.
8th and CPW can't be co-named since the addresses don't match, although 8th Avenue and Frederick Douglass Blvd can be co-named
What's up with the West Shore line project that someone has heard from NJ Transit that can be posted up here on subtalk.
As for the light rail on the Northern Branch, that's still up in the air. The Colorado Railcar DMU tests have made politicians in Bergen County rethink their stance; after seeing a vehicle that doesn't require electrification, has toilets, is pretty darn quiet despite being diesel-powered, plus doesn't have to futz around with FRA time-share waivers like light-rail has to, it's certainly given food for thought and of course been cause for even more delay . . .
Want to ask more questions? Visit these forums instead of here.
So do I.
http://www.coloradorailcar.com/latest-news.htm
Lets hope they get some more quickly (as these seem to be pretty good machines)
Mark
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/06/03/262.html
For a little history of the zoetrope:
http://courses.ncssm.edu/gallery/collections/toys/html/exhibit10.htm
A lot of gallons.
"Liverpool Street is Britain's busiest station. Over 123 million people pass through it each year. 20% of them are not travelling. 24% are travelling to visit friends and relatives. 58% are male. They spend on average 25 minutes on the station."
Now that surprises me. If you had said "Guess which London main line station is the busiest?" Liverpool Street would not have got my vote. Waterloo probably would. I guess that there are just a lot more commuters coming in from the east than I thought. As for the UK's busiest, I'd probably have guessed Birmingham New Street.
"They spend on average 25 minutes on the station."
That doesn't particulalrly surprise me, although it was presumably David Fairthorne's reason for his title of the thread. It is a main line station, after all, and some of its train services are not all that frequent. It also has shops, bars, etc. People might arrange to meet up there, and one oft hem arrives early. Etc., etc.
I wonder what the average time spent in GCT is?
Now that surprises me. Liverpool Street would not have got my vote. Waterloo probably would. As for the UK's busiest, I'd probably have guessed Birmingham New Street.
The web site says that Liverpool Street "has 123 million visitors", "over 110 million people pass through Victoria" but no figure is given for Waterloo. Birmingham New Street "serves over 31 million", and "over 34 million people visit Glasgow Central".
I wish they would express these numbers in the same terms for all stations, and say just what they mean. For Liverpool Street they call 123 million the "number of visitors" in one place and the "number who pass through" in another. Clearly they are not numbers of passengers, as we are told that 20% are not passengers. The people who pass through the station presumably include those going between the street and the underground via the station concourse.
You may be right about Waterloo being the busiest station. On the TfL London Rail web site, there is a (rather crude) map showing AM peak period volumes, in which Waterloo appears to have more passengers (denoted by a thicker line) than either Liverpool Street or Victoria.
"They spend on average 25 minutes on the station."
That doesn't particularly surprise me
That's 2,340 people averaged over all times of day or night and all days of the week, or several complete train loads.
Many users of Liverpool Street are commuters and/or arriving passengers, and I don't think they would spend much time in the station. Assuming that 50% of the people fall into those categories and spend an average of 5 minutes, then the other 50% must spend an average of 45 minutes, which seems to me surprising, and even improbable.
Right, and that's because your assumptions are clearly not right!! I used Liverpool St on a number of occasions, for the Stansted Express, and I oftentimes arrive just as one is leaving -- so that's 15 mins I spend in the station right there. Stansted Express is one of the more frequent services there, so imagine what happens to daily commuters who have gone shopping after work and then get to the station only to realize they have just missed a service that ran on a 30 min headway... Most people do not time their arrival to coincide with the train departures unless they are waiting for an intercity express that runs every 2 hours -- even then, people arrive up to 30 mins early for the fear of missing it. If you sit at Glasgow Central one afternoon rush, it will become very clear!
AEM7
I was trying to estimate how many people would be unlikely to spend a significant amount of time in the station, and I identified (a) commuters and (b) arriving passengers (including of course arriving commuters). My estimate was that those categories comprise 50% of people who use the station, and that they spend on average 5 minutes at the station. Departing Stansted Express passengers do not fall into either of those categories.
Most commuter routes run at least every 15 minutes, so I don't think commuters would (on average) have to wait long. Arriving commuters usually go straight to work, and what fraction of departing commuters go shopping before missing a train?
I really have difficulty in believing that the *average* time spent in Liverpool Street station can possibly be 25 minutes.
Depends on the sampling methodology. If their sampling methodology is to walk around the station and ask people "how long have you been here", I can believe that the result is 25 mins. It's hard to sample people if they're walking through the station and not stopping.
Also, are you sure about the wording. The "average time spent by each passenger" is something very different from "time spent by average passenger".
OK, I concur with your observation that arriving passengers (particularly commuters) do not hang around. However, you have already established that 20% of those who are in Liverpool St. are not passengers. So arriving passengers make up about 40% of the total. If you look at passenger counts, morning commuters probably make up about 50% of all arriving passengers -- so that's 20% of the total. So 20% of the total spend 5 mins at the station.
Now consider the other arriving passengers: lesiure travellers to London who are a bit lost; intercity travellers who need to stop and buy breakfast or lunch before heading off to meeting; people who are meeting other people... granted, an average of 45 mins is unlikely, but again, that may be due to the sampling methodology.
AEM7
Yes that's what I was thinking; I doubt that they would question people who looked as if they were in a hurry, so the sample was probably not representative.
Also, are you sure about the wording. The "average time spent by each passenger" is something very different from "time spent by average passenger".
If you are distinguishing between the mean and the median, they probably mean the mean. The exact wording is:
"Liverpool Street is Britain's busiest station. Over 123 million people pass through it each year. 20% of them are not travelling. 24% are travelling to visit friends and relatives. 58% are male. They spend on average 25 minutes on the station."
morning commuters probably make up about 50% of all arriving passengers -- so that's 20% of the total. So 20% of the total spend 5 mins at the station.
That seems reasonable, and evening commuters probably make up another 20%. Their average wait is about 7.5 mins, and allowing time to get from the station entrance to the train might give you 10 minutes or so, but let's be generous and allow 15 minutes. Then the average time spent by the 40% who are commuters is 10 minutes, or 20 minutes per day per commuter.
The other 60% (arrivals, departures and non-passengers) would have to spend an average of 35 minutes – still way too high.
I don't remember seeing that phenomenon in London, but when I lived there most suburban trains had one slam door per 10 to 12 person "compartment". Nowadays they have fewer (sliding) doors and more standing room.
as much as 20 minutes before the train leaves, frequently when an earlier train serving another line is at the platform.
I suppose they want to get seats. At London termini you would only be let onto the platform when your train was next to leave.
That map is decidedly odd. Charing X to London Bridge overcrowded by less than 1% in rush hour? I don't think so! (Unless they've averaged the two directions, which would be a bit obscurantistic).
It also seems to have a hell of a lot of people jumping from the viaduct half-way between New X / New X Gate / Deptford and London Bridge.
Anyway, the really overcrowded bits are:
(1) the Chatham Main Line into Victoria
(2) the lines into London Bridge
(3) the Tilbury lines beyond West Ham
(4) the Great Eastern Main Line beyond Stratford
(5) all lines into Marylebone (!)
(6) one of the two lines into Paddington (Presumably the GWML, whilst the less crowded one is HX)
These really fall into two categories: firstly those with huge passenger flows (2)(4) and those with inadequate infrastructure to bear even moderate ones (the rest).
(3) is the simplest of the lot: they should run more trains, and double-track Upminster - Grays.
(6) could be fairly easily resolved by better flighting of trains on the relief lines.
(1) really could do with sending the fast trains over the Catford Loop, preferably flighted so that some sort of local service can run.
(5) is however a big problem. There are simply too many stations between Marylebone and Princes Risborough, no passing loops, and too little opportunity for short turns. There would be room to quadruple the line from Wembley to Beaconsfield, but this would be expensive, as among other things a 200 yd tunnel would be needed. A simpler solution may be to close all intermediate stations in Greater London (they all have better used alternatives) and perhaps put a connection in and electrify to allow Denham, Denham Golf Club, and Gerrard's Cross to be served by the Central Line. The slowest services from Marylebone would then be left with only 5 intermediate stops to Princes Risborough, allowing more trains to run non-stop to Banbury.
They are using the Strategic Rail Authority measure of "passengers in excess of capacity" (PIXC). It is the excess of passengers over seats (plus standard sized standing spaces), where unused capacity is not deducted from the excess. It is measured over the three-hour AM peak period, and yes I think it does include trains in both directions. Normally it's only published for entire TOCs, not individual stretches of line. I believe the train operating companies are penalized if they have too many PIXCs. The PIXC measure may serve its intended purpose, but I don't think it's a good measure of overcrowding.
a hell of a lot of people jumping from the viaduct
The South Eastern service is notorious and some people get desperate; at that rate they will soon have no passengers left!
That's one reason why I don't entirely trust the map. In some places (but not all) colors are superimposed on one another. There is a similar map for the inner parts of the underground at this TfL London Rail site. If the line widths were correct, they could be more meaningful than the PIXC values.
those with huge passenger flows ... and those with inadequate infrastructure to bear even moderate ones
Based on the dubious data on the map, I agree with most of your analysis.
You mention "flighting" which means (I think) that you run a fast train, then a slower one and so on followed by a gap before the next flight. This arrangement is used on Metro North from Grand Central, where in rush hours each flight may contain as many as five trains. Flighting can be used on any two track line, and should be considered before adding extra tracks.
On the Chatham lines there are two two-track routes both having local stations, so you cannot simply dedicate the Catford loop to fast trains and the main line to slow trains. I believe that some fast trains actually do use the Catford loop.
We have discussed the Marylebone line before, and I agree that the inner stations should be closed. They are probably kept open with minimal service to avoid the legalities and politics of closing them.
They do indeed - the last time I used the Chatham lines I was surprised to find my return train to London going that way. Even Eurostars get sent that way sometimes.
I wonder how necessary the local service on the Catford Loop really is? It's only half-hourly, often has only two- or three-car trains, and my observation at Blackfriars is that they do not load well in the offpeak. Most of its stations are pretty near others with more frequesnt services that serve more useful destinations. It would provide useful extra capacity for longer-distance services if the local stations on the loop were closed. Catford station, the most important, is virtually next door to Catford Bridge station on the Mid-Kent line, after all.
It would provide useful extra capacity for longer-distance services if the local stations on the loop were closed.
The Catford loop line is useful in that it helps to divert passengers away from the London Bridge high-level bottleneck.
West of Nunhead, the Catford loop line is shared with two tph from Victoria to Dartford via Lewisham and Bexleyheath, and there is a recent proposal by the Strategic Rail Authority to add two tph from Victoria to Sidcup via Lewisham which would also share that part of the Catford loop line.
Cannon Street has only three tracks through London Bridge, and it really needs four, like Charing Cross. To work around this problem, some peak-hour trains arriving at Cannon Street return empty via Blackfriars sidings, Nunhead and Lewisham.
As for the Catford loop local service, Catford is the only station with another one next door. The other stations (Crofton Park, Bellingham, Beckenham Hill and Ravensbourne) have no convenient alternative. Under the SRA proposal there would be additional trains in the peak hours from Blackfriars to Bellingham, and the Catford Bridge service would be reduced.
Yes, all three of them.
West of Nunhead, the Catford loop line is shared with two tph from Victoria to Dartford via Lewisham and Bexleyheath, and there is a recent proposal by the Strategic Rail Authority to add two tph from Victoria to Sidcup via Lewisham which would also share that part of the Catford loop line.
An obvious capacity improvement would be to run those just before the loop trains. Stations to Peckham Rye would have better SLL service.
Cannon Street has only three tracks through London Bridge, and it really needs four, like Charing Cross. To work around this problem, some peak-hour trains arriving at Cannon Street return empty via Blackfriars sidings, Nunhead and Lewisham.
If they both had 4, there would be nowhere for the trains to go, as the section Borough Market Junction to North Kent East Junction is still only 6 tracks. Indeed, Cannon St used to have 4 tracks from London Bridge - it says something that one of them was removed.
As for the Catford loop local service, Catford is the only station with another one next door. The other stations (Crofton Park, Bellingham, Beckenham Hill and Ravensbourne) have no convenient alternative.
If you live within walking distance of Crofton Park, you will also be within walking distance of Brockley, Honor Oak Park, or Ladywell. Bellingham could easily be shifted to the other end of Broadmead on the Mid Kent Line. One side of Beckenham Hill is close to Lower Sydenham station, the other is a golf course. No-one lives near Ravensbourne really, and anyone who does would use Shortlands as it has more trains.
Under the SRA proposal there would be additional trains in the peak hours from Blackfriars to Bellingham, and the Catford Bridge service would be reduced.
That is what is known as stupid. It is widely lambasted for cutting service to Lewisham (for DLR). The pressure groups are out to kill that proposal. A better plan would be to run the following peak services on the Hayes Line:
- Charing X, Waterloo E, London Bridge, Ladywell and all stations.
- Blackfriars, Elephant, Denmark Hl, Peckham Rye, Nunhead, Lewisham, Ladywell and all stations.
It's still nowhere near ideal. Really huge track works are needed. But the SRA has no money...
I don't think that's relevant, because the South London line runs on its own tracks, called the "Atlantic" tracks.
Indeed, Cannon St used to have 4 tracks from London Bridge - it says something that one of them was removed
Cannon Street station is still very important, as it has the capacity to turn 25 trains per hour. But there isn't the capacity through London Bridge for all 25 Cannon Street trains to both arrive and depart via London Bridge.
Due to dwell times at London Bridge station, no platform can handle more than about 14 to 18 tph. In the AM peak platform 1 lacks the capacity for all down trains. In the PM peak platform 3 lacks the capacity for all up trains. Hence the empty Cannon Street trains returning via Blackfriars sidings where they reverse to go to Lewisham avoiding London Bridge.
As I understand it, before 1976, all trains *to* Cannon Street used to cross over all trains *from* Charing Cross; Cannon Street trains used the Borough Market crossover two trains at a time, hence two up tracks were needed at Borough Market junction. But the service became too unrealiable, and the signalmen couldn't handle it, so the CS and CX lines were separated through London Bridge. Also the platform-less track 7 was added, giving four tracks through London Bridge for CX trains and three for CS trains.
[on the Catford loop] you will also be within walking distance [...]
Passengers could be persuaded to take other routes, but the idea is to make more use of the Catford loop, not less.
That is what is known as stupid. It is widely lambasted for cutting service to Lewisham (for DLR).
The problem is that the flat crossover at Lewisham is a bottleneck, limiting the number of trains that can go that way.
i had a look at the map after I posted my previous statement. Crofton Park could be handily replaced by a new station in Dalrymple Road, midway between Brockley and Honor Oak Park on the Brighton main line out of London Bridge. That line is scheduled to have East London Line trains; an extra station would be handy for the new, frequent Underground service. Bellingham station could be shifted to the other side of the estate, as Rail Blue said, and would split a longish gap between two stations on the Mid kent line. Beckenham Hill and Ravensbourne are a bigger problem, but they are not heavily used.
Users of local stations on the Catford loop could find other routes, but most would add to the London Bridge bottleneck.
I would like to add a Catford loop service to Victoria, and extend the existing Blackfriars service through the Thameslink.
Strangely Connex did better in terms of performance targets than Stagecoach-SWT. Personally, I'd like to see Govia take over the lot, because then they'd have a right to write "Southern" on the sides of the trains :-D
There is a similar map for the inner parts of the underground at this TfL London Rail site. If the line widths were correct, they could be more meaningful than the PIXC values.
I love their prediction that the JLE will go from being hugely underused (H&C nearing Hammersmith style) to being packed out! Wishful thinking award to TfL! Note that even in that parallel universe, no-one wants to ride the section East of Canary Wharf.
Joking aside, there are obvious things which need to be done:
Starting with the simplest, run more Northern Line trains. Don't have all the crossing over at Kennington in Rush Hour - there isn't capacity for it! People can walk across the platform. Bias the Northern end in favour of Barnet. Insert some short turns Archway - Tooting Broadway via Bank.
Jubilee Line: run alternate trains to Charing X to boost the frequency on the busier section to Willesden Green.
Next level of difficulty: lengthen trains on the Drain.
Next level of difficulty: improve the junctions at Earl's Court so that more District Line service can run. Use Putney Bridge for short turns.
Big bucks level: relieve the Victoria Line, the Northern part of the Piccadilly Line and the Central Line from St Paul's to Stratford with new lines.
Well, if station signage is anything to go by, I'd've said Clapham Junction.
As for the UK's busiest, I'd probably have guessed Birmingham New Street.
It's also incredibly badly designed, which rather adds to its air of business.
In terms of number of trains that call, not in terms of passenger flow.
AEM7
aem7 is correct. About 2000 trains per day pass through Clapham Junction, but many of them don't stop there.
According to The Most Used Stations in Outer London, the number of passengers entering the station each day is about 13,000.
As best I could tell, there didn't seem to be much in the vicinity of Clapham Junction that would draw huge numbers of riders. It seemed to be an ordinary residential area.
To me all parts of London have their individual differences, but looked at objectively you are right. Clapham Junction station is the area's most distinguishing feature. The station is surrounded by small row houses, built in the late nineteenth century.
There is a large shopping centre nearby. (Incidentally, Clapham Junction is not in Clapham!)
Not only that but it isn't much of a junction either, in the sense that very few passenger carrying trains merge or diverge there. They simply keep going straight ahead on the tracks that they are already on. Otherwise the name is correct!
Clapham Jct. was constructed before Clapham Jct. area became a London suburb.
Examples:
Needham Jct. in MA is actually in Dedham. It connects the Needham Branch with the Franklin main line.
Attica Jct. in OH (Norfolk Southern/NKP) is not in Attica, OH, which is on the branch. The mainline passes in the vicinity of Bellevue, OH if I recall correctly.
Pacific Jct. is actually in Texas, a location where a planned transcontinental railroad branched off from (I think) the Katy mainline.
White River Jct. in VT is where the White River branches off from the Connecticut River, and where the White River branch joins the main line.
Counter-examples:
Copley Jct. on the MBTA Green Line lies just beyond the Copley Sq. subway station and connects the main line to the Huntingdon Ave or Arborway Branch.
Carstairs Jct. in Scotland is so called because it lies in the town of Carstairs. It connects the Edinburgh branch to the LMS/LNWR Glasgow main line.
Trolleybuses (Upside Down Railways) terminating adjacent to the Scrubs Lane entrance to Willesden Junction showed 'NEAR WILLESDEN JUNCTION' as the destination , ie: "Goes to terminus near Willsden Junction which is near Willesden !
Anyone remember where this came from? Goodies? Python?
The Goon Show? Certainly it was Peter Sellers. [My daughter lives in Balham.]
The point was that it was a pseudo-American accent - compare the pronunciation of Birmingham, Alabama, with that of Birmingham, England (Birming-Ham versus Birmingum).
As in the movie The Lavender Hill Mob?
Absolutely. The self same Lavender Hill.
Wonderful movie.
I thnk the statistic for its being the busiest station refers to trains that stop, though it becomes even busier if you add the ones that pass through. The reason, of course, is that it is served by *both* Waterloo-bound *and* Victoria-bound trains. It is thus useful for transferring between the two routes, of course, though I rather suspect not many people use this facility.
In fact all Waterloo trains (except Eurostar) pass through Clapham Junction, as do almost all trains to and from the west part of Victoria station (the Brighton lines).
You'd be surprised. There are a number of incredibly useful transfers available there - off the top of my head:
1) SW/SC to WLL for Watford (change for the West Midlands and the North-West)
2) SW(Main)/SC to Windsor Lines for Reading (change for other parts of the West Midlands, South Wales, and the South-West)
3) SC to SW (useful if coming from Gatwick, Brighton or anywhere on the coast between Chichester (via Hove) and Hastings and trying to get somewhere on the SW suburban)
4) Slightly more disreputably, SC to SW (to Waterloo) - the fare-dodgers' connection
5) And if the SW Main Slow Lines are fncked, you can always get a Windsor Lines train and change for the SC if you're going to Epsom, Ashtead, Leatherhead, Box Hill & Westhumble, or Dorking (North).
Certainly the first one only occurs hourly, but you should see the number of people on the footbridge changing from their train from Watford! Really, the Manchester/Liverpool/Birmingham to Brighton via Watford and Clapham should be restored, but someone decided to fragment the railways...
Who would operate it. And what would be the point given that CrossCountry runs practically the same service? Manchester/Liverpool/Birmingham to Oxford to Reading to Brighton.
AEM7
The point is that the route via Oxford is ridiculously slow. If you can time the connection right, it's quicker from Birmingham to Brighton changing at Watford and Clapham.
Admittedly it has been a few years since I read the Crosscountry schedule, since I wasn't all that interested in Operation Princess. In my mind XC trains are still hauled by Class 86's with Mk.II stock. Oh I feel old.
My recollection of the XC service plan was that they had basically four prongs coming out of Birmingham New St: the NE prong (Aberdeen/Edinburgh/Berwick/York/Chesterfield/Birmingham) and the NW prong (Glasgow/Carlisle/Oxenholme/Manchester Oxford Road/Birmingham) -- then those services came out as the SW prong (Bristol Temple Meads/Plymouth/etc) or as the SE prong (Basingstoke/Oxford/Reading/Brighton/Portsmouth/Southampton).
Now Rail Blue can you clue me in on what happened to that oddball that went from Birmingham New St to Paddington. Gosh, I even forget what type of stock is on that since it can't be an 86, was it one of the 47 runs?
Oh and what happened to the Birmingham Electrics into Euston -- or is that a VWC run?
AEM7
(formerly 86 213 'Lancashire Witch')
Not Darlington? And surely Derby? And Basingstoke comes after Reading:
....Basingstoke, Winchester, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, Lymington, Bournemouth and Poole, perhaps? Possibly Southampton Airport too, but I don't think so.
It's changed quite a bit. The main change is that the Virgin Voyager trains have come in, replacing the HSTs plus loco-hauled (class 47) mark II coahces mixture. Essentially they doubled the frequency and halved the size of the trains (now four cars only). Prdictable overcrowding now occurs - since if the service gets better, more people start using it.....
The Brighton trains were only ever a minority - most of the ones down through Oxford always went to Southampton and Bournemouth, as they still do. As I said in another post, I think the Brighton-Milton Keynes, later Brighton-Watford Junction idea made more sense, but noiw that it is only Gatwick Airport-Watford Junction I doubt if any non-railfan going to or from Brighton wouyld use it.
"Now Rail Blue can you clue me in on what happened to that oddball that went from Birmingham New St to Paddington."
That was a weirdo. There was more than one each way, actually. Some of them were Liverpool Lime Street-Paddington, which was even odder. They don't exist any more - they were at the end of the BR era, pre-Virgin.
"Birmingham Electrics into Euston -- or is that a VWC run?"
The Birmingham-Euston service has always been Virgin West Coast, never Virgin Cross-Country. It's still half-hourly, on the odd occasions when the WCML is fully open (8-). The damn thing was closed completely for nine days recently. All sorts of weird bustitutions - change at Luton Airport Parkway for Milton Keynes; Change at Kettering for Rugby (I kid you not); etc. etc.
Fytton.
NE: Tamworth, Burton, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Rotherham Central (branch to Leeds City only - the Wakefield service was a later diversion), Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle Central (later extended to Edinburgh and Aberdeen).
NW: Wolverhampton HL, Stafford, Crewe (branches Wilmslow, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, and Runcorn, Liverpool Lime St), Warrington BQHL, Wigan NW, Preston (seasonal through service to Blackpool N IINM), Lancaster, Penrith, Carlisle, Carstairs (branch to Edinburgh), Glasgow Central.
SW: Worcester Shrub Hill, Cheltenham Spa Lansdown (branch to Gloucester Central, Newport, Cardiff Central, Bridgend, Port Talbot, Neath General, Swansea High St), Gloucester Eastgate, Bristol TM, (Weston-super-Mare), Bridgwater, Tiverton Junction, Exeter SD, Dawlish, Newton Abbot (branch to Torquay and Paignton), Totnes, Plymouth, then various stations to Newquay and Penzance.
SE: Solihull, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Oxford, Didcot, Reading, Basingstoke, Wincehester, Eastleigh, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, Bournemouth, Poole, Weymouth Town.
Various alterations were made. Rotherham lost its XC service, whilst Wakefield gained one. The branch to Leeds was through-routed to the North. Oxenholme popped up in the North-West. When Virgin effed up Operation Princess, Blackpool was lost, as was Liverpool.
The two Southern sections saw the biggest changes. Worcester lost its service entirely, Gloucester Eastgate closed and trains reversed at Central until about a year or two ago when Virgin completely wrote Gloucester out of the timetable. When Bristol Parkway opened, the Welsh services were diverted via the Severn Tunnel, consequently becoming very slow and poorly patronised, so the service got hacked back. Bridgwater also disappeared. The SE arm always looked rather small compared to the others, so services to Portsmouth and to Brighton appeared, with Brighton running via Milton Keynes Central.
Birmingham International gradually replaced Solihull, before they ran out of slots between New St and Cov, leading to some returning to the route via Solihull (variously stopping or not depending on how obscurantist they wanted to be about this fact) and the extremely bold decision to run some NW-Brighton via the Trent Valley.
Then from about 1987 it got hacked back into the simple X via Birmingham which it had started out as, usually with the reasons being "to make it attractive to privatisation" and "to cut costs".
Had BR stayed, the likelihood is that the table 49 services would have been uprated and interlinked with the ones in 50 and 51 (49 being Liverpool to East Anglia, both via Birmingham and via Sheffield; 50 the North to the South Coast; 51 the North to the South-West).
The Paddington - Birmingham service was originally a very roundabout Paddington - Liverpool service. It had nothing to do with XC, but was rather a response to the unpopularity of killing off the Paddington (via High Wycombe) - Birmingham SH - Wolverhampton LL - Shrewsbury - Chester - Birkenhead Woodside service. Naturally it was deliberately made unattractive for through passengers, running via Oxford, and the St Andrew's Curve into New St. It vaguely became part of XC until it got killed off about 2 years ago. VT wanted to run a second Pad to New St service (via Stroud) at the time of Operation Princess, but were only allowed to run a brief Birmingham - Swindon service.
Classic Intercity CrossCountry!!
http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/gb/electric/86/86_2/BR-86_230-260/86249-S35.jpg
http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/gb/electric/86/86_2/BR-86_230-260/86252-10.jpg
Dead Line
In BR days it wasn't very frequent. But *after* they fragmented the railways, South Central (now renamed Southern) put on an hourly Brighton-Milton Keynes service via Kensington Olympia, connecting for other major midlands and northwestern cities at Milton Keynes Central.
It's now been cut back to Gatwick Airport-Watford Junction; I assume that was a commercial decision resulting from relatively low usage of the service. There are frequent trains between Brighton and Gatwick, and midlands and northern connections can also be made at Watford Junction. But a three-seat ride from Brighton to Birmingham isn't very attractive, as an alternative more frequent three-seat ride, with more comfortable rolling stock, can be obtained by changing at Victoria and Euston!
For those unfamiliar--the figures do not include the two Underground stations (except passengers 'stolen' from the Central line at Stratford- for a quicker and more interesting journey. I did it myelf when living at Leyton ! )
The "one" railway has four parts, and I will look at the four timetables and estimate the number of trains on each.
For those unfamiliar ... passengers 'stolen' from the Central line at Stratford
Stratford station is the first stop out of Liverpool Street, and the Central line tube temporarily surfaces there. Stratford has cross-platform transfers, and the Central line 'steals' passengers from commuter rail just as commuter rail 'steals' from it.
Stratford station is the first stop out of Liverpool Street, and the Central line tube temporarily surfaces there. Stratford has cross-platform transfers, and the Central line 'steals' passengers from commuter rail just as commuter rail 'steals' from it."
Stratford station is deliberately designed that way to facilitate transfers, of course, just as Mile End is designed for cross-platform transfers between the Central and District Lines. The designers of the eastern extension of the Central Line, working in the 1930s, were quite bright! In the 1960s, the Victoria Line's designers displayed similar intelligence at Finsbury Park, Highbury & Islington and Oxford Circus.
Stratford station is very convenient, but the new Stratford International station on the CTRL is less conveniently placed.
Trains leaving Liverpool Street in the noon hour (12:00 – 12:59) and in the peak hour (17:00 – 17:59), weekdays.
Anglia to Norwich – 2 and 2.
Stansted Express to Stansted – 4 and 2.
Great Eastern to Colchester or Braintree or Ipswich or Clacton or Walton or Witham – 5 and 9.
Great Eastern to Southend Victoria or Southminster – 4 and 8.
Great Eastern to Shenfield or Gidea Park or Ilford – 5 and 14.
West Anglia to Cambridge or Kings Lynn or Stansted or Hertford East or Bishops Stortford – 6 and 10.
West Anglia to Chingford or Cheshunt or Enfield Town – 6 and 10.
TOTAL – 32 and 55.
Anglia and Stansted Express have typical long distance ridership. Great Eastern and West Anglia are mainly commuter lines, and they account for 80% to 90% of trains, but we can only guess what proportion of their passengers are commuters.
Some coastal towns have quite a few commuters, especially Southend. Great Eastern calls the Shenfield and Southend line a "Metro". Trains leave Liverpool Street for Southend Victoria at 10 minute intervals in the peak hour; journey time is 60 minutes. Local service to Shenfield is more frequent than 10 minutes but less regular (having skip stops and short turns).
Words fail me ! :-)
Or if you prefer "trains departing Liverpool Street", which means the same thing. Unlike nearby Broad Street, they will return.
(Ugh ! That half demolished roof ! )
TALLAHASSEE - A proposed ballot measure to kill Florida's voter-mandated high-speed rail project cleared its first milestone Tuesday, with enough signatures to warrant review by the state Supreme Court.
Elections officials have verified nearly 55,000 petitions submitted by Derail the Bullet Train, a campaign led by Florida Chief Financial Officer Tom Gallagher. That's more than 10 percent of the 488,722 needed to make the ballot.
Besides collecting nearly half a million signatures to go before voters, all citizen initiatives must get a green light from Florida's high court, which makes sure they deal with only one subject and are fairly described in their ballot title and summary. That review is triggered when a campaign has 10 percent of the signatures needed.
In 2000, voters approved a ballot measure ordering the state to build a high-speed train, with the first leg running from Tampa to Orlando and later connections to Fort Lauderdale and Miami. Gov. Jeb Bush has lamented the cost of the project and backs the repeal drive.
Gallagher said Tuesday the drive has collected more than half the signatures needed. To get on the Nov. 2 ballot, the necessary number must be verified by Aug. 3.
[Last modified June 1, 2004, 23:54:21]
There has been a lot of issues about these companies that get paid per petition. It's big industry. But they disrupt business under the guise of free speech and refuse to leave. Besides they dont' know what they're talking about on anything, there is no free speech on private property if you're getting paid to do petition work. Also Glenda Hood is the ex-Orlando Mayor who backed LRT there and beautiful neighborhoods.
------------------------------
Bob Mahlburg | Tallahassee Bureau
Posted June 2, 2004, 4:48 PM EDT
RELATED STORIES
The State In Brief
Jun 2, 2004
Rail foe fears tax could be required
May 29, 2004
TALLAHASSEE -- A group trying to stop Florida's high-speed rail train broke state election law and should have tens of thousands of petition signatures tossed out, train backers charged in a lawsuit filed today.
Lakeland millionaire C.C. "Doc" Dockery said the anti-train group, backed by state Chief Financial Officer Tom Gallagher and Gov. Jeb Bush, paid a California firm to collect signatures to try to force an election on repealing the bullet train. But the paid petition gatherers did not follow a law requiring their names and addresses on each petition, Dockery said.
As a result, the nearly 200,000 signatures collected are legally invalid, Dockery charged. With an Aug. 3 deadline to have 488,722 signatures verified to put the measure on the ballot, that could slow down or kill the effort, Dockery said.
"Essentially, you're starting over," Dockery said, adding with a smile that if the effort failed, "It would be very nice."
Elections officials have verified nearly 55,000 petitions submitted by Derail the Bullet Train. Dockery's attorney, former state bar association head John Frost II, said the request for a court injunction to invalidate those signatures was filed early today in Leon County Circuit Court.
Dockery has spent more than a decade pushing for a high-speed train to connect major Florida cities including Orlando and Tampa. Florida voters endorsed construction of the train in a statewide vote.
Bush and Gallagher call it a boondoggle and have fought to derail it. Mark Mills, a spokesman for Derail the Bullet Train, said he couldn't comment on the legal merits of the lawsuit but said the group's lawyers are confident that the petition meets the law's requirements.
"This is a frivolous lawsuit without merit intended to slow our momentum," Mills said.
The suit names as a defendant Secretary of State Glenda Hood, who must approve the measure for the ballot after verifying signatures. A spokeswoman for Hood said the secertary's chief lawyer was reviewing the lawsuit Wednesday and couldn't immediately comment.
The anti-train group needs to have the wording of its ballot measure approved by the state Supreme Court for clarity and to make sure it only deals with one subject. That review is triggered when a group gets 10 percent of the signatures, a milestone that was passed Tuesday. With the lawsuit, it's not clear whether the court review process could go forward.
Information from The Associated Press was used in this report. Bob Mahlburg can be reached at bmahlburg@orlandosentinel.com or 850-222-5564.
A parade of traffic that will not stop.
SMOOSH!
Also, does this have anything to do with that new GPS system they are installing in the manual block territories?
Anyway, I don't know this directly, but my best guess is that when one is in non-ASC territory you'll either constantly be registering a 15 mph signal in the cab or the display will be completely dark so one of those two choices.
There are usually indicators that verify the crossing is operating properly, in manual block or dark territory, in the form of a incandescent white light mounted some distance away from the crossing along the track and visible from the engineer's driving position. If that light is out, then the engineer should expect that the crossing is not operating properly.
But you knew that, didn't you? (And you could probably quote the exact rule no. that describes the light).
AEM7
Dylan
The engineer cannot usually see 20 seconds ahead, in that the crossing is still out of view by the time the crossbucks start coming down. If the engineer gets a signal that the crossbucks have failed, considering reaction time etc he/she still has a good 15 seconds to brake. I'd rather be hit by a train moving at 15 mph than one moving at 60 mph.
This analysis is completely different for freight trains because a freight engineer cannot simply throw on the brakes, and a freight engineer does not have electro-pneumatic brakes that are available on most MU's. Bad braking on a freight train can tear the train in half, as many people have discussed on this board.
AEM7
From the Billings Gazette
No, WMATA doesn't want to run the ads. They didnt' want to carry the ads. It was the folks who wanted to buy the ad space from WMATA who filed the suit, as stated in this passage from the article:
"Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority earlier this year declined to run ads submitted by the American Civil Liberties Union and three drug advocacy groups. The groups then filed suit, calling it an unconstitutional restriction."
Mark
Not really. The defendant made a good case that these advertisements would encourage illegal activity. That being said, I agree with the decision. Every American (whether as an individual or together as a group) has a constitutionally protected right to hold an idiotic position on any subject and the right to waste their money attempting to make others agree with their idiocy. God Bless America!
Finally, drug use is a victimless crime. The billions of dollars the government flushes down the toilet in fighting the "War on Drugs" can be better spent on intelligence, law enforcement, social programs and treatment for drug addicts. The money would even be better spent lining the pockets of already wealthy fat cats.
Then that still makes it a victimless crime, since nobody is hurt against their will.
And there are plenty of dangerous things that allow people to hurt or kill themselves. Nobody wants to ban knives.
That's one of the dumbest things I've ever seen posted on here.
And there are plenty of dangerous things that allow people to hurt or kill themselves. Nobody wants to ban knives.
The world needs knives. The world does not need cocaine.
*Leaves Flatbush Avenue around 7:30pm
<5> 241 St- New Lots Avenue[also Utica and Flatbush Avenues] - Express in Bronx[peak direction 3 Av-Gun Hill Road From 241 to Manhattan 6:15am-9:15am from New Lots to the Bronx 3:30pm-6:30pm], Manhattan and Brooklyn
Evenings & Weekends
(5) 241 Street - Bowling Green express in Manhattan local in Bronx
Nights
(5) 1am-5am Shuttle 241-180 Sts
(2) Flatbush Avenue - Dyre Avenue all times local in Bronx and Brooklyn, express in Manhattan
Advantages:
(5) and <5> will go back to 241 and allow for more East Side service on White Plains Road
(5) and <5> will both run express from 3 Av-149 St to E 180 St
(5) will run local north of E 180 St
<5> will also run express from E 180 St to Gun Hill Road
(2) will go back to Dyre and Dyre will have consistent West Side service(outside of G.O.s)
Dyre will have 24/7 Manhattan access
White Plains Road will have nothing but express service weekdays peak direction(like Pelham Bay Park)
White Plains Road will have MUCH more express service
5 service will be running on the lower White Plains Road line for an extra hour each evening
Dyre will have more Brooklyn service
Dyre will have a more stable line won't have to battle Woodlawn for service priorities(will battle 148 instead)
Disadvantages
241 will not have 24/7 Manhattan access
White Plains Road will not have the choice of 7th Avenue service
White Plains Road will not have the choice of Bronx local or Bronx Express
241 will have a late night shuttle
Dyre will lose Bronx Express service
Local stops below 180 will lose midday local service
241 will have less Brooklyn service
241 will have a less stable line, will end up having to battle with Woodlawn for service priorties
Local stops between E 180 St and Gun Hill Road will lose some rush hour service
After a few years, this confusing arrangement was changed to the basic one we see today.
What about weekend G.O.s? The 5 sometimes is a shuttle on weekends as well? I guess for daytime G.O.s the 2 could run to 241 Street so WPR can have direct weekend G.O. Manhattan service.
The MTA would have to spend extra money running the (5) an extra hour to Manhattan. 241 can not have Shuttle service starting at 10:13pm, it would have to be 11:17pm, meaning (5) will be in Manhattan after midnight.
Either that or change service around so the 5 can run to Bowling Green at nights(cut the 4 or 6, or connect the 3 to the 4 line so 3 can run to Woodlawn and 2 can be the Dyre Shuttle, transfer from 3 to 5 at 149 St-GC)
No, there is no need to expand the express service north of E180th. The (5) would make all stops all times.
The MTA would have to spend extra money running the (5) an extra hour to Manhattan. 241 can not have Shuttle service starting at 10:13pm, it would have to be 11:17pm, meaning (5) will be in Manhattan after midnight.
I'd limit shuttle service to midnight-5 AM weekdays, starting later on weekends. Yes, this means more #5 express service. That's always a good thing.
Also Dyre gets more rush hour service under this plan
138-GC
149-GC
3 Av-149
E 180
Gun Hill
241
This plan has all trains running local north of Gun Hill Road, however some special (3) trains[2-3] can run super express from 241 sometimes if needed, although they would usually run local to give Pelham Parkway more service during the rush
2 Dyre-180
3 148-New Lots
4 Woodlawn-149/GC
5 241-Flatbush
Disatvantage:
-Woodlawn passengers have to transfer
-No service between 135/Lenox & 149/GC:
Can be a big disadvantage if a lot of passaengers transfer 2->4 @ 149/GC
Shuttle Bus Service can cross over from 145 St to 149 St GC every 20 minutes though to connect the (3) and (5).
Here's another way (not recommended, I would rather build the (3)/(4) connection than do this)
Run the (3) to Woodlawn late nights via a series of switching, reversing(yes it IS possible)
Service would be low enough not to cause any major delays
(3) would have to backup at 149 St GC lower level (or use M track near Jackson and backup) backup to 138 St GC, then go up to upper (4) level.
Either that or (3) to 149 GC, switches back to Manhattan while (4) Shuttle waits upstairs
Here is another way
5 241 - Bowling Green
6 Pelham Bay Park -125
Both 2 and 5 will run on the lower White Plains(West Farms) Line. As a compensation to Pelham Riders 5 would run express to speed up their ride(6 would be timed connection at 125)
With no service i meant subway - bus shuttle can be, if there are no
regular lines connecting Lenox with Lex
>I would rather build the (3)/(4) connection than do this
I would prefer a reconstruction of 96 St, so the Lenox Term line can be
a 24/7 local (to SF) and the VCP line gets an express.
(4)
(5)
(N)
(R)
(Q)
(W)
(L)
I was wondering, is there any logical reason to list the Broadway trains in any way other than the alphabetical order of (N)(Q)(R) and (W)? Or why the Broadway trains are listed before the (L)?
The only reason I can think of is because when the stripmaps were printed, the (N) and (R) were local, while the (Q) and (W) were express, so they were grouped together on the stripmaps.
:-) Andrew
If you are a LIRR rider I'm sure you have heard or seen this signal. Going west in the Jamaica (EAST SIDE) complex there is a subway signal that acts as a final block heading into Jamaica's track 4,5,6. Whenever I see it it is always aspecting red but what is its purpose and why not just give the regular dot signal or the small rectangle dot signals?
-Dylan
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/newyork/columnists/ny-nysub033830551jun03,0,6961946,print.column?coll=ny-ny-columnists
David
I just do not like the idea of roaming agents.
While the token booth, the need to handle money, and the need for a sales agent have all disapeared, the need for a station agent has not.
There should be a booth, but not at all like todays booths. Something open, with low counters accessible from both sides of the fare control, with a station agent that can help people on either side. But an Agent who is always there.
There should be some video displays for all to see with transit and weather information on them.
Perhaps I should make a sketch of my "Fantasy Station Booth"
Elias
Would you settle for a clean toilet that works?
Read Meat is good for you.
Blue-green fuzzy meat is not good for you.
Elias
Blue-green-fuzzyburgers just need to be cooked a bit longer. What *I* am trying to figure out is who it was that decided that CHEESE with all that in it was not only OK to eat, but EXPENSIVE? (grin)
Topical: Anybody miss the NEDICKS stands in the subway? Or "YANKEE FRANKEE? THAT'S what I'm talkin' 'bout ... good old fashioned subway mystery meat!
YES YES YES! Nedicks was the best. And I loved how they did their buns.
Elias
Yes, and unfortunately, they loose a lot in the translation when you buy one in the Minniapolis Airport!
Nathans had the better hotdog.
Nedicks the better bun.
Elias
The Station Agent's "Booth" is a mostly open area with counters facing both the street and the controled side of the turnstyles. The counters are about 40 inches high, and are glassed in, but with openings about ten inches wide and about ten inches apart, thus allowing a more personal contact with the customer, yet protecting the agent from someone leaping over the counter to make a physical attack. The open areas can be quickly shutdown in the event a firearm is branished.
Of course the booth has no money, so there is little insentive to robbery. The agent may leave the booth to service vending machines, give directions, or assist customers, but needs to remain in the area during his or her tour of duty.
The restrooms may be unlocked (electonically) by the agent (one person at a time, occupied lights will be displayed.) Agents will assure that the restrooms are kept neat, but heavy cleaing is done by others.
The Police/Security booth is glassed in, with exits to either side. The glass is mirrored, so people cannot see inside. They will never know if an officer or other agent is in there or not. The booth agent will know. Security cameras are present over the turnstyles, but may or may not be on or operating. You just don't know, do you.
The Waiting Room Area is under the direct ovbservation of the Station Agent, At night, annunciators will warn of the arrival of trains, if people would rather wait where is is warmer and or more secure. Monitors will display changes or delays in service, weather conditions, and other information.
Elias
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?7
Matt
But I have never heard of a problem. This gives the customer (no)service agent time to sleep ;). Usually they are very helpful though and have time to since they are not selling fares. They are not always in the booth, but usually close by and available for assistance. Some stand right by the turnstiles and happily assist those in need, such as tourists. In the winter they are not always responsive to the CA button on the platform because everyone presses it as they are trying to find the heater button. The transition can be rough as some agents would rather sell fares than assist passengers, so until they are weeded out or change their attitues they are not very willing to help.
Unfortunately the CAs are being replaced at some stations by rent-a-cops to watch the TVMs during times of low ridership. They seem to try to help, but are not usually able to since it is not really part of the job. I would be bored silly sitting there for up to eight hours with nothing (really) to do!
Matt
All I know is, why not go into the 21st century, like the rest of the world, college campuses, and malls have.....emergency call boxes. The nice thing about these, besides being everywhere and anywhere, whent he button is pushed dispatch automatically knows the location. Just like those counties where 911 can locate your cell phone.
Besides, cranking 911 is illegal for two reasons(either jail or fine). One, it's a diversion tactic to commit a crime with no cops around. And B, it's a waste of time. I guess with the loss of payphones everyday, it's gonna be harder to be anonymous.
The older fire call boxes were all on a party lion. You pulled the handle, and a clockwork thingie rang out the code for that box. The FD responded. I did see a fire in a midtown building once, flames shooting out the windows and all. The fire box had already been pulled. You could tell by looking at it because the handle was hanging down. People were standing around pointing at the fire, a block away from this particular call box.
Thing is in a real fire, several boxes in the same area will be pulled, so they know to shake a leg, or whatever.
False alarms are a problem too. I heard that they put a phorsphorecent powder on the handles, and could then circulate through the crowd with a lamp to see who had powder on thier fingers. Maybe that's just a tail!
Elias
However in order to accomplish track upgrades, Guilford will take "advantate" of the Democratic National Convention's forced closing of Boston's North Station, and SUSPEND The Downeaster June 26-29, according to a TV news report last night. No indication if substitute bus service will be provided.
What really caught my attention was the last paragraph about possible excursion trains to points beyond Portland. If that gets going I may have to plan another Maine vacation for myself.
Mark
As we made our way downtown (via CPW Express/6 Av Express, stopping on the local side at 59th Street to avoid a garbage train), the Conductor kept saying the train was "Brooklyn-bound." However, when we got to West 4th Street, we pulled in on the local side, the Conductor asked the Train Operator whether the train would terminate at Second Avenue, and the Train Operator said that it would. Some people had boarded the train at various stations along the way figuring it was going to Brooklyn, while others had not boarded it, not knowing where it was going.
My group was headed for the West End Line, so they were able to transfer across the platform for a D train (which came in short order) and continue their trips. However, I was headed for the Brighton Line, so I had to go to Pacific Street on the D and transfer via the passageway to the Q at Atlantic Avenue (it's faster than going "around the horn" at Stillwell Avenue, especially since the Q would be on a 20-minute headway by the time I'd get there).
My points are these:
1. The crews have got to get used to the "enabler." 161st Street was not the only station at which there was a delay in opening the doors on this trip.
2. The train should have been signed up properly, or at least the signs should have been blanked.
3. The crew should have known at the outset where they were to take the train.
4. The Conductor should have made proper announcements all along, or at least should not have said that the train was going to Brooklyn when that was not evident.
5. One would think that after 70+ years of Concourse Line service at Yankee Stadium, RTO would be able to do it right.
David
Other problems may preclude opening of doors immediately. For example, if the train is extra long for the line, then the traincrew would have had to check safety clearances. If the crew don't open the doors, there might be a good reason.
2. The train should have been signed up properly, or at least the signs should have been blanked.
While rollsigns should generally be correct, sometimes operating circumstances mean that there isn't time to change the rollsign. I would rather have a train with the wrong rollsign than no train with the right rollsign.
3. The crew should have known at the outset where they were to take the train.
The crew may have been short-turned by control. On the operation of Red Sox Specials up here in Boston, the traincrew do not generally know where the train is going. Red Sox Specials usually leave from Blandford, goes into service at Kenmore, and then run up to Park and turn around. But sometimes they run to Government Center. It's impossible for the traincrew to know this until they reach Boylston, one stop before Park.
4. The Conductor should have made proper announcements all along, or at least should not have said that the train was going to Brooklyn when that was not evident.
The train crews have the right to assume the train will make a full run, especially if that was what they were told, to announce that fact. If the route was subsequently truncated, they have no choice but to announce "this train will terminate here for operating reasons". Perhaps he should have said "Manhattan-bound" rather than "Brooklyn-bound", but it's the same difference, especially when he thought he had a full run ahead of him.
5. One would think that after 70+ years of Concourse Line service at Yankee Stadium, RTO would be able to do it right.
They did most things right. You just didn't know it.
AEM7
I think David is in a better position to know what was done right than you -- especially from a customer service standpoint.
They are designed to get people into manhattan
It takes me forever to get home on the brighton line. Best bet id 4 train to union sqaure and catch a brighton train from there.
Now that I don't work in manhattan I drive in. I get home at a reasonable time
David
The train is 600 feet long. The platform is 660 feet long. The exterior guard lights on all the cars illuminated soon after the train stopped, but the doors did not open, suggesting that the Conductor tried to open the doors but the enabler was not actuated by the Train Operator. The doors eventually opened without the train having to move.
"While rollsigns should generally be correct, sometimes operating circumstances mean that there isn't time to change the rollsign. I would rather have a train with the wrong rollsign than no train with the right rollsign."
This was a "ballgame special." The game was well over three hours long. There was ample time to change the signs. After all, every sign had been changed to "D" (presumably from "B" since these cars are not normally used on the D).
"The train crews have the right to assume the train will make a full run, especially if that was what they were told, to announce that fact. If the route was subsequently truncated, they have no choice but to announce 'this train will terminate here for operating reasons'. Perhaps he should have said 'Manhattan-bound' rather than 'Brooklyn-bound', but it's the same difference, especially when he thought he had a full run ahead of him."
Since the train was a "ballgame special," and since the signs (as set by SOMEONE, presumably the crew that ended up operating it) were set for a routing that does not exist under regular operating conditions, there was no way for a passenger to know what a "full run" would be. Since the Conductor had to ask the Train Operator where the train would be terminating, obviously she didn't know where it would be terminating and probably the Train Operator didn't (at the time the train was put in service) either. The destination should have been made evident to the crew so they could tell their customers in time for the customers to make an informed decision about staying with the train or transferring to another line (as I would have transferred to the Broadway Line's Q train at 34th Street).
"They did most things right. You just didn't know it."
I've got over 15 years at NYC Transit. I can tell when things are being done right and when they aren't.
David
Not after what I'm going to tell you, a real horror story (not that I did not leave the Bronx from a disaster movie until 12 Midnight and I was not home until 1:50 AM this morning, a longer ride than the full trip on the A from Inwood to Far Rockaway. I did get my required sleep though.)
The 2253 from 205th was my train at 161st Street (I got there at 12:06 AM). There were several track gangs at 155th/8th and 145th Street, so it was a slow go. I understand and expect the trains to be slow at this time but this was pathetic. From 145 to 125, we were competiting with a non-revenue set of Redbirds (Car #'s 9305, and 9307 I saw), running on the local track with another track gang ahead, at 15 MPH. Things were supposed to be a little better from the 125 to 59 run but the T/O apparently was inexperienced, we did no more than 20 MPH, THE ENTIRE TIME. A purported 8 minute run becam 12 minutes as we dragged at 10 MPH or less below 86th Street. I went from C/R position car to the RF window in front to see what was going on. The T/O was OK until he messed up on the "dash" by pulling the train to a near stop for no reason, then started again. When we finally reached Dekalb, we were supposed to be there at 12:51, we were 13 minutes late at 1:04. Dekalb M/T tower was holding the N train on the opposite side for an apparent connection, but the doors closed and the train took off without the connection from the D.
Guess what? Another track gang south of Dekalb stalls the N in the tunnel for 4 minutes (I timed this on my watch), and holding up the D in the process. The D is already 17 minutes late at this point, it finally takes off after the N left and there was another D train behind it (of course, Murphy will make the delayed D train do a battery run on the West End portion as if the customers should wait another 2-3 minutes for the D train behind it.).
By the time the Q was able to pull into Dekalb, it was nearly 1:30 AM and I was so glad to end this journey at Newkirk 15 minutes later.
Why do the C/R's wait for their trains at Yankee Stadium, instead of waiting on the train with the motorman? It's management's way of making sure that the C/R's get a lunch break at 161, and don't fill out a "no lunch" OT slip.
Baseball specials were a good job at one point. Now, most terminals and yard dispatchers have work waiting for you as soon as you get back. They use the T/O's from the baseball specials to give a "break" to their regular crews. I'd rather just work the road.
Also last I saw they doubled as platform conductors until their train arrived.
David
Many times I've pushed the enabler before the C/R was ready - usually coming out of relays or as a put-in - only to get a buzz from him to push the enabler. On rarer occasions, you get enablers that don't work, causing the T/O to center his reverser at every stop so the doors will open - something even harder to remember.
While you don't say where the other door delays occurred, I'll make a guess at two locations - 145 and 59.
David
David
David
What time was this? I take it the 4 wasn't running local yet (since around that same time the D begins stopping at DeKalb, and you would have avoided the walk) -- if it was, then the 4/6 to Canal would have certainly been faster.
Seeing as you had a chance to walk past it, how did you like the new photographic display in the passageway to the Brighton line?
As for the photographic display at Atlantic/Pacific, I was half-asleep (the time being around midnight by then) and in such a hurry I didn't even notice it was there.
David
Check out the photographic display the next time you're in the neighborhood.
Find yourselves a copy of "The Story Of Metro" by Deiter. Even if you have to take one out on loan from a library--This piece of info will be critical to your success....especially the map of the 1968 ARS
That's all for now from the where the air is a little thinner
See you in two weeks
http://chnm.gmu.edu/metro/
This morning when I logged on to the nycsubway.org website, I was a bit taken back by the whole "no photo" premise of the home page. David makes several good and valid points.
This whole thing is becoming scary. I was just having a discussion yesterday with someone at work about this very subject. It is simply amazing to me how quickly Americans are willing to allow their hard won and defended freedoms to be decimated in order to obtain a sense of "security." The problem is that in a free society, we will never have a 100% security. Our consitutionally ordained freedoms ensure that absolute security can never be. If we have the freedom to assemble, to speak, to think, and to pursue "happiness", in the process security goes out the window. Any sense of security we gain by eliminating freedoms is a false sense of security at best. Only in a totalitarian state can security (from the government's point of view) approach anything like what our government, its agencies (including MTA, NJT, etc) would like. Is this the direction we are heading? I am afraid of the possible answer.
If something as seemingly innocent as railfan photography causes detention and harrassment of its participants, this nation is in big trouble. And it goes way beyond railfanning. Ultimately, if such things as rail phtography can be banned, who in this nation is safe from the American Security Gestapo? (They would probably go nuts if I brought out my digital audio recording equipment to record trains as I used to do).
I have normally been fairly conservative throughout most of my adult life, but things like this are turning me into a rabid civil libertarian. If you can take away the simple freedom of photography (especially photography taken from public locations like grade crossings) you can take away any freedom.
On another board dealing with broadcasting, we have had similar discussions about the current "crackdown" on broadcasters like Howard Stern. While I've never been a fan of Stern, if we silence him, we can silence any broadcast speech -- even religious speech, political speech, and so on.
Bottom line: if we allow the reduction or elimination of one freedom, we are in danger of losing greater freedoms in the long run. We have to do all we can to stop this madness before it's too late.
The banishment of civil rights such as this is NOT a conservative agenda. Conservatives stand up for civil rights much more than liberals do.
The govenment made some suggestions, i.e. bomb proof trash cans, greater vigilance etc. etc...
NOWHERE does it say anything about a photo ban!
THAT is a LOCAL (anal) interpretation carried to an extreme by bureaucrats.
BAN the BAN!
Elias
And while the federal govenment may have not dictated a ban on rail photography, it is comments by members of the administration (from W on down) that encourage over-reaction. Perfect example: as I was writing my original post, the radio station I am working for was in the middle of a newscast in which they played a cut from W in which he categorically stated, "We WILL secure our nation" (emphasis was by the President). Comments like this are all the ammunition the likes of NJT and MTA need to justify their actions....with or without specific guidelines on photography from Homeland Security.
I don't know how you square this statement with the plain facts of what recent administrations have done. Conservatives tend to construe civil rights rather literally. A conservative view is that "Freedom of speech" means freedom to speak, not freedom to express oneself in other ways. Robert Bork, who was nominated to the Supreme Court by a very conservative President, although not confirmed, believed that freedom of speech was limited to political speech, and not other kinds of speech. A liberal view is that "freedom of speech" encompasses all forms of expression, broadly construed.
Although not on-topic here, conservatives also tend to have tightly bounded notions of other rights too, such as the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures, the right to be represented by counsel, the right to be compensated for takings of property, the right of habeus corpus, and so forth. Conservatives tend to interpret those rights narrowly. Liberals tend to have an expanding and evolving view of what those rights encompass.
Justices of all stripes have upheld some abridgment of Constitutional rights, provided the State satisfies what's called "strict scrutiny." This basically means that the rule must satisfy a compelling governmental interest, and must be narrowly tailored to meet that interest. No one will dispute that thwarting terrorism is a compelling interest, so the issue turns on whether the proposed photo ban is narrowly tailored to protect this interest.
Although I oppose the photo ban, I would note that the MTA has banned photography in the past, and while they willingly lifted the ban, it was never found unconstitutional. Photos are also banned in other places where security is a concern (e.g., at borders and customs checkpoints), and such bans have never been overturned. I'm not sure whether they've ever been challenged.
Courts would look with approval on the fact that photos are allowed so long as you obtain a permit. As a point of comparison, there's a Constitutional right of free assembly, but all cities require permits for assemblies/parades above a certain size. The need to obtain a permit in this situation has been upheld by the Supreme Court.
Bush is not a conservative. He's a religious extremist. I'm a Conservative and I've been pretty irritated by what Busche has done recently -- I don't recall many specifics; however, I am MORE APPALLED by what Busche has NOT done recently: Busche has NOT focused on traditional conservative values: Family, Education, Fiscal Conservatism, Economic Isolationism, Environmental Stewardship... etc, etc.
This is really not a board for Conservative bashing, or Liberal bashing. Or W Bashing for that matter. I think this is all I have to say on this topic.
Not only are you wrong, you're arguing in an improper forum.
AEM7
Rockefeller was a Good man, even if he did die doing a Bill Clinton.
Your pal,
Tuco
At least as an UNENROLLED, they BOTH have to GUESS and kiss tuchus in HOPE that I *might* pull their lever. Best part is that despite the "election folks" knowing which levers get pulled based on a "clunk" or a "click" they KNOW that I pull BOTH party's levers and thus I'm one of those miracle "undecideds" that EARNS a visit to the house, hat in hand, begging, pleading. When you're REGISTERED, they only shake you down for money and you NEVER get a kiss when you're about to get ... ummm ... Heh.
Then why did the liberal supreme court justices rule that free speech does not include political speech?
I wouldn't agree with that last statement entirely, but a good point.
I absolutely *love* that all of us fighting against this paranoia bullcrap come from all different political persuastions - liberal far left, (economically) conservative right, anarchists, libertarians, centrists - it's only the authoritarian assholes (the most vocal of whom seem to be Republicans, but probably only because that's the party in charge right now, and there are many fraidy-cat Dems out there, make no mistake about it) who've had a massive hard-on for this kind of Gestapo stuff, who are running this.
But even those in elected office who don't feel too strongly about this stuff are afraid to vote against it, lest they be branded "soft" on terrorism or be somehow blamed for the next attack (and oh yeah, sooner or later there *will* be some kind of attack, you can bet your life on that...) - it's really getting to the point that the judicial branch is the only part of government where the individual gets a fair shake; I suspect a lot of this is because it's an election year and judges (federal, certainly) by and large are appointed, not elected, so they don't have to participate in the politicized "bigger d*ck" contest.
Personal Freedoms:
It is rather facist isn't it? My only comfort is, and I'm not totally well versed in this one, but I vaguely think that during WWI or Wilson's era, we had a real problem with this kinda of stuff and lack of freedoms. And of course during Lincolns term there were plenty of problems(the cause of the war in the first place). He would jail you if you lived in Maryland and so happen to even wear Red socks for fear you were a rebel sympathizer.
So hopefully history will keep cycling and this all is temporary. But then again, how many real enacted laws get repealed?
Something which strikes me as odd about the current terrorism paranoia is its timing. More than two and a half years have passed since 9/11, with ZERO further attacks, yet the government (both federal and local) seems to get more and more frightened as time goes on. I mean, the MTA's proposed photo ban would have made slightly more sense (but still would've been a bad idea) if it had been brought up in the first few weeks after 9/11. Why is it only now that the proposal's been made?
GOP Convention this summer, IMO. On a related note, one financial analysis I heard a few weeks back is that the city will be lucky to break even while hosting this blessed event. Feh. Hold the damn thing in Texas where it belongs.
W has no cojones; only when it's completely set up and 'safe' does he play hero. If he were in possession of a 'big set' he would have landed on the carrier on Sept 11 or 12, 2001. My dos pesos.
Your pal,
Fred
Thus, that's the best bargain on earth.
However, there's hope. The driver I know is a union higher-up, so she will bring the subject, and explain the process at the next union meeting in a couple of weeks.
The artist was nice and not annoyed, though I'm pretty sure he's been bothered by railfans in the past. The building looks a magnificent as when first built, although a dozen years ago, foliage was obscuring the track level. Must be more obscured now.
The ground level entrance corridor was bricked over and has a single entrance door. So the entrance corridor should be one big foyer !
Are you aware of two books on the NYW&B Rwy ?
Westchester's Forgotten Railway by Roger Arcara is the official Bible of the NYW&B. Westchester County's Million-Dollar-A-Mile Railroad by Robert Bang is a thinner book, but has some rare photos to pique your interest.
Both books are out of print to my knowledge.
Bill "Newkirk"
does anybody know whether there have been plans in the past to construct a new bridge or tunnel, comp. to the Brooklyn/Manhattan Bridge or Queens Midtown tunnel between Manhattan and Queens/Brooklyn?
Taking a look at the map hanging from my wall, it strikes me that there are no bridge/tunnel structures at all between the Midtown tunnel and the Williamsburg bridge, except for two rail tunnels. Now, the reason may seem obvious: only Downtown and Midtown Manhattan are important enough to get direct links with the eastern boroughs, but then, after all, isn't this a question of 'what caused what' (chicken or egg)?
Any information whatsoever is greatly appreciated.
You are right that the existing bridges were built where they seemed necessary at the time, which isn't necessarily where they're needed now. If we were starting again, the existing bridges & tunnels should perhaps be elsewhere, but that's academic.
63rd lower will open to LIRR though, if you want to count that...
I'll start with image 30887, which is identified as being on the Brooklyn Bridge, but is actually on the Williamsburg Bridge.
-- Ed Sachs
1. Is this image under the Broadway El? It sure looks like the Broadway El (thumbnails clickable).
2. I think this is at Marcy Ave station, as that railing above looks like the WillyB railings:
3. This one may sound crazy considering the destination signs on the trolley, but I think this one looks like Seneca Ave station on the M line. If it's not, the similarity is uncanny! Anyone know?
2. I agree with you, it's the Williamsburdg Bridge Plaza
3. The Dekalb Ave on the sign was the main route for today's B38 bus, which one of the 2 Ridgewood branches also runs along Seneca Ave to Seneca and Myrtle Aves. Therefore it is Seneca Ave station.
The end of Sofie's Choice didn't compensate for the fact that the Brooklyn Bridge had a different structure in 1982 from the one in 1947.
Not sure about the second one. My father regularly rode the Ralph / Rockaway Avenue trolley from Bushwick to Brownsville as a boy to shop with his mother for a new Easter suit every year at trhe garment district centered at Rockaway and Pitkin Avenues. Not sure if that line ever went to the Willy B. plaza. I will ask my dad, or you can check it in "The BQ Transit" by Smith and Kramer, if you have it.
The third one is most definitely the Seneca Avenue el station on the M line. The trolley shown was the predecessor of the B-38 bus which runs between Ridgewood and downtown Bklyn. "Park Row" must mean that the trolley continued over the Brooklyn Bridge into lower Manhattan.
2. This is Flatbush Avenue and Hanson Pl. LIRR term. is on right, as is Williamsburg Savings Bank Building. The Fox Theater can be seen on the left looking towards the Manhattan Bridge
3. Ocean Avenue between the Belt Pkwy and Emmons Ave
4. 37th. St. at 13th Ave. (see http://www.culvershuttle.com/other/pages/068.htm)
B35 bus at 1st Ave and 39th st/Bush Terminal end Note the famous highway in the background.
Corrrection on this caption, it's Church Ave and Flatbush Ave
Prospect Park SW and Bartel Prichard Square on the B68
Culver line in background looks like 13th Ave and 38th st to me.
I will have more later.
B69 bus on Brooklyn Bridge on ramp. And another photo from different angle here.
Correction on this photo it's Prospect Park West and Prospect Ave. Church ave does not intersect with Prospect Ave and the B75 does not run on Church Ave.
Church and McDonald looking east. Note: the angled street is where Beverley Road starts.
Prospect Park West and 5th st entrance. I never knew that Prospect Park West was at one time, a 2 way street.
B69 turning into Bartel Pritchard Square
Here are some more shots of the B67 at the terminal on 20th st at Greenwood Cemetary:
image 30803
image 30804
And some more Church and McDonald Ave photos that were missed:
image 30806
B68 turning around at PRW on West 5th st and Surf Ave.
Church Ave and either Rugby or Argyle Road. I will take a look on my way home to be sure.
McDonald Ave and 10th Ave/20th St triangle. Greenwood Cemetary is on the right.
B68 on Prospect Park Southwest. Cross street is not known.
Sorry Dave, there is an error on one picture I identified earlier. image 30939 at Park Place has two distinctive items that need this correction. One is the BMT directional sign, the traffic signal blocks the sign but there is a "B" to the left of the sign. That is the Brighton Line as well as the street being two ways. Franklin Ave is one way southbound while the street in the picture is 2-way operation.
It may be 7th Ave, will have to get back on this one.
Your caption on Church Avenue where you said "Argyle or Rugby" is at Buckingham Road. Trust me, I lived there for 20 years.
"It was long ago, and it was far away, and it was so much better than it is today." (At least transit-wise)
This pole also appears in another photo in this thread, at McDonald & Church.
If I'm not mistaken, trolleys disappeared from Brooklyn- and NYC- around 1960, the year after my birth. Does anyone know what the last trolley route was?
The last operating trolley in NYC was the Queensboro bridge line, which lasted a year longer than the Brooklyn trolleys.
-- Ed Sachs
Anyway, the #68 was abandoned earlier than the other two.
B68 bus on Coney Island Ave near Neptune Ave.. Guess what fantastic elevated line is in the background? LOL
Some more Church & McDonald photos:
image 30833
image 30846
image 30856
image 30860
image 30863
This should be Livingston St at Boerum Place and the route is the B67 (Seventh Ave on sign.) not the B57 Flushing Ave route as per caption.
B35 turning at end of Church Ave and Old New Utrecht Road
39th st near New Utrecht Ave. The West End el. is in the background.
Private ROW near Shell Road and Avenue Y or Z. I know the Culver line is very high at this point.
Church and Flatbush Aves. This is a correction, East 19th Steet is 2 blocks the opposite direction from the RKO Kenmore. Another correction on a different photo right here.
Here was a fun one: B67 on Flatbush Ave Ext., under Myrtle Ave El.. Look at the subway entrance to the left. Anyone want to confirm this pic?
Not done yet! Be back later.
It now makes sense, the B67 runs on Jay Street. Jay Street also angles to the right at Fulton Street (before it was renamed and redesigned Fulton Mall), and matches the picture. The correct location is Jay Street at Myrtle Ave.
Harrumph!!!!
That ain't no feaking bus.
It's a PCC car. See, it's on rails and there's trolley wire above, and the pole is in contact with the wire.
subfan
2. These are under the WillyB approaches:
3. To get started on this one, the station is the background is probably an Easterm Division station (due to construction). It's probably the Broadway El. So we just have to see where the "Wilson" line crossed under the Broadway El, and it should give us the location.
4. This one is under the Jamaica El (note two tracks and place for express track that is not there).
Photo # 4 : The trolley also of course reads "Jamaica" and is probably the forerunner of the present-day Q-56 bus. Hence, somewhere on Jamaica Avenue. But where ? The building toward the right looks like a theater.
The Putnam Av trolley ran from Palmetto St (looping Myrtle > Palmetto > St Nicholas), via Cypress Av, Weirfield St, Wyckoff Av, Halsey St, Nostrand Av, Putnam Av, Fulton St, Livingston St, and Court St as far as Tillary St.
3. To get started on this one, the station is the background is probably an Easterm Division station (due to construction). It's probably the Broadway El. So we just have to see where the "Wilson" line crossed under the Broadway El, and it should give us the location.
The Wilson Av trolley ran from Rockaway Pkwy on the Canrsie Line via Rockaway Av, Cooper St, Wilson Av, Morgan Av, Johnson Av, and Broadway to Williamsburg Bridge Plaza. It therefore crossed Broadway just West of Chauncey St station.
Well there we have it! Thanks James. I know my Eastern Division look!
That image is taken on Rockaway Ave or Cooper St (depending on whether it's north or south of Broadway) looking toward the Chauncey Street station on Broadway and the current "open" mezzanine at that station, which exits onto Rockaway Ave (Chauncey's mezzanine is abandoned).
Flatbush Avenue car headed toward downtown, viewing looking south on Flatbush Avenue between Prospect Park and Botanic Garden.
Downtown Brooklyn, near Borough Hall
Probably Bergen Street Depot.
Coney Island & Brooklyn PROW east of Ocean Parkway looking north toward Brighton Beach Avenue
Southbound McDonald Avenue car beside IND ramp near Kensington Junction
McDonald Avenue car heading south toward W5 St. Depot on former PP&CI PROW.
More when I can get to them.
Image 31147 : Wilson Avenue trolley, Rockaway Avenue just southwest of Broadway, Bushwick, Bklyn, el is Bway el, Cooper St. / Rockaway Avenue (northwest) exit of Chauncey Street station.
31079 : Lexington Ave el turnout from Bway Brooklyn ?
31071 : Cooper St. between Bway and Wilson Ave in Bushwick
31067 : Rockaway Ave and Bay Ridge LIRR just north of Avenue D
31101, 31110 : Cooper St. looking south to Bway el, Bushwick, Bklyn.
More TK
39th Street Ferry Loop (though the ferry was history by then)
See above.
PROW to 39th Street Ferry
39th Street Ferry Loop (again)
Church at McDonald, looking east.
McDonald at Church looking north.
Church AVenue cars, but Bristol Street loop was at Hegeman, not Church.
Church Avenue between East 21st & Flatbush Avenue. (same caption for 30845)
Ah, memories ... Coney Island Avenue car cutting through Park Circle.
Williamsburgh Bridge Plaza
But its coming together! When its finally done Dennis, Conrad and myself will be tired, but satisfied at a job well done.
Who wants to help me with sanding/priming?
But then this thread might provide a few new faces, that would be great.
Sunday I hope to operate 451 at The Point (she's been in the shop for new doors on one end & to seal the roof vents)
BTW, I didn't mean anything negitive about the previous restore. It made her available for service, 20 years ???
Nah, no offense taken. I know you high platform guys mean well. :-)
I don't really recognize the SubTalk handle but by process of elimination I assume you're Jan Lorenzen. I would love to continue helping out on 1001 but with my new job with the post office I never get a Saturday off and you guys seem to always be working on Saturday. However since I'm starting to think delivering mail in Great Neck isn't the way I want to spend my retirement from the police department I may possibly resign soon and I'd love to help you guys.
Both images are of trolleys on the Ralph / Rockaway Avenues line, Bushwick and Bed-Stuy, Bklyn.
A few blocks to the southeast, but not visible in either of these images, are the Loew's Gates, Monroe, and RKO Bushwick Theaters.
-Here's one that shouldn't be too hard to figure out. In the distance is a dual contracts el station, meaning it is either the Livonia or Broadway El. The buildings near the el seem to match those in the above photo, so that is the Livonia El in the distance, probably taken the same day as the above photo from a different block.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31134
-With the next one, it would be my first instinct to say that this is the McDonald El. Since "Gravesend Ave" was really a railroad ROW, buildings took longer to be erected along it (so the scene is consistent with McDonald Ave. One thing throws a wrench into it though, the el appears to be headed downwards. I can't picture anywhere this would happen, unless this is the IND connection to Church St. Where else does an el decend like that? I don't believe it the Culver el because, there seems to be a gap next to the track, meaning there is no express track.
Maybe the Livonia El? DId the Mc Donald Ave trolley line cross somewhere between Utica and Rutland Rd on the Livonia El?
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31140
-- Ed Sachs
It's so frustrating when a street sign appears in an image and it's too blurry to read, or even guess at ! That especially bugs me in those Wilson trolley images which appear to be on Cooper Street (narrow yet two-way residential street, with cars half-parked on sidewalks, I suppose to make room for the trolleys) in Bushwick, when I would LOVE to know the cross street !
I think there's another trolley image at Rockaway and Hegeman Avenues, other than the one in your post.
I'm still browsing through the images, and posting whenever one looks familiar.
1. These photos are at the intersection of Hedgeman and Rockaway Ave. The buildings on the right match another photo (#31118), also taken at that intersection:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31075
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31069
2. The next one should be farily easy I guess. One question, is Reid Ave now Malcolm X Blvd? I tried searching for "Reid" on mapquest, and it gives me "malcom X", with no "reid Ave listings. If it is, this photo is at Broadway and "Malcolm X Blvd" (Reid Ave), between Myrtle and Kosciuszko stations.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31065
3. This one is on Broadway in Brooklyn, under the Broadway El. Wow, Broadway used to be lined with buildings!
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31036
4. This one is under the Jamaica El on Jamaica Ave. The front says "Jamaica", and the el is consistent with the J's el: Two trackways with no express trackway.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31021
5. This one should be easy. Since the sign says "Park Pl", which cross street did the Bergen line turn off of from Bergen St, and we have the answer.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31017
6. This one is on Broadway at Dunham Pl in Brooklyn, almost at the waterfront. The trolley had just left passing under the Marcy AVe where the el leaves Broadway. That's the WB Savings bank in the background. The tall "Gretsch Building" on the left still stands today.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?30993
img_7744 is at Church Ave & McDonald Ave
img 30875 is at Church Ave and Ocean Ave
img 31228 is on Church Ave and Bedford Ave. Holy Cross Roman Catholic Church is to the right at Veronica Place.
img 31232 is at Williamsburg Bridge Plaza
img 31169 is outside Brooklyn Borough Hall on Joralemon Street
img 31005 on Flatbush Ave/Atlantic Ave. LIRR terminal on background
More later or tomorrow.
img_7744 is at Church Ave & McDonald Ave
img 30875 is at Church Ave and Ocean Ave
img 31228 is on Church Ave and Bedford Ave. Holy Cross Roman Catholic Church is to the right at Veronica Place.
img 31232 is at Williamsburg Bridge Plaza
img 31169 is outside Brooklyn Borough Hall on Joralemon Street
img 31005 on Flatbush Ave/Atlantic Ave. LIRR terminal on background
More later or tomorrow.
img 31012 is Joralemon St, by Adams Street, although the building to the right may suggest the Department of Education HQ at 110 Livingston St.
img 31020 is Ocean Ave and Emmons St. How can any Brooklynite ever miss Lundys? The route is #49, today's B49 route.
Another Williamsburg Bridge Plaza photo for img 31104 here.
img 31105 is Route #60 trolley (today's B60) leaving Williamsburg Bridge Plaza. The location should be Havemeyer Ave and South 4th Street.
I already left a message to Bill Wall's voicemail and he hasn't returned my call yet. He is probably busy prepping for the BU trips with G.O. planning and making sure our babies are ready to go. I'd also like to attend the 24th because Elias is making his trip from North Dakota to attend the Saturday trip (and what if I mailed in for the Sunday tickets?).
--Mark
's article? :-)
--Mark
Bad location for a false report, but I doubt these are too uncommon. Could've even been an abandoned package or bag and concerned paranoid people are being safe.
Mike
mIke
Robert
However the bad news is there is eight more to go & it's actually 16 because they'll be in english & spanish :-(
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid95/pe7c17fd36e841057b2fb880dcfb0ffb2/fa2293ef.jpg.orig.jpg
Pick a rail/subway station (or line).
Start with another station or line (anywhere!)
Using transfers and connections (paid transfers included, no out-of-system tranfers) keep following until you've reach your station (or line).
Not only this game is fun, it also tests your knowledge of tranfers and connections as well as lines!
Example:
Six Degrees of VERNON JACKSON (7)
Reagan Airport, DC(starting point)
Yellow Line to Gallery Place
Red Line to Union Station
Amtrak Regional/Acela Express/Metroliner/Federal to NY Penn
1/2/3/9 to Times Square/42 St
7 to VERNON JACKSON
Mattapan High Speed Trolley to Ashmont
"T" Red Line to South Station
Amtrak (whatever service) to New York Penn Station
(A) (C) (E) to 14 Street - 8 Avenue
(L) to Lorimer Street
(G) to Broadway
-RJM
New London, CT (starting point)
Shore Line East to New Haven
MNRR to GCT
S/7 to TS
1/2/3/9 to 34th St. Penn Station
LIRR to Montauk
CG
B or Q to Atlantic Avenue
2 or 3 to Penn Station
Amtrak to Albany (to eat at Jack's Oyster Bar - good burgers and cotton candy - and they're a high class place!)
Amtrak from Albany to Union Station, Chicago.
Amtrak to LA, Union Station
Metro Red Line to Hollywood.
1. Blue Line to Gov't Center
2. Green Line to Park St
3. Red Line to South Station
4. Amtrak to Penn Station
5. 2 or 3 to Atlantic
6. Q train to West 8th-- and the Cyclone!
yes- I love roller coasters as much anything else on rails!
Gaasperplas (Amsterdam) to Flushing-Main St (NY):
1. Metro line 53 to Diemen Zuid;
2. NS (national railways) train to Hoofddorp, get off at Schiphol Airport;
3. Whatever airliner to JFK (KLM, Northwest, Virgin...);
4. AirTrain to Sutphin Blvd/Archer Av;
5. E to Jackson Hghts/Roosevelt Av;
6. 7 to Flushing Main St.
Time zones/jet lags not included ;-)
-Alargule
In this game, you can begin at any rail station or location on one continent. One main rule is that air travel between continents is not allowed. The goal is to find interseting rail links between points on any ONE continent.
Okay, that's clear enough for me >-(
Gaasperplas (Amsterdam) to Preston Road (London):
1. Metro line 53 to Diemen Zuid;
2. NS railways to Schiphol;
3. change trains: Thalys (high speed ;-) ) to Brussels Midi;
4: change trains: Eurostar to London Waterloo (via Chunnel);
5: Jubilee Line to Baker Street;
6. Metropolitan Line to Preston Road.
See? European travel: simple as that ;-)
1. A to Penn Sta
2. Amtrak to Chicago
3. Amtrak to L.A. Union Sta
4. Red Line to Metro Center
5. Blue Line to Imperial
6. Green Line to Redondo
1b. A train: Inwood/207th St to Broadway Junction
2b. J/Z train: Broadway Junction to Sutphin Blvd/Archer Av
3b. LIRR Far Rockaway: Jamaica Station to Inwood Station
1c. A train: Inwood/207th St to Far Rockaway/Mott Av
2c. Walk a couple of blocks
3c. LIRR Far Rockaway: Far Rockaway to Inwood
NJT Raritan Valley Line to Newark Penn
Amtrak from Newark to Washington DC
Red line from Union Stn to Metro Center
Blue/Orange from Metro Center to McPherson Square
A: 207/Inwood to 145 St
B: 145 St to 125 St
C: 125 St to 59th/Columbus Circle
D: 59th/Columbus Circle to 7th Ave
E: 7th Ave to Forest Hills/71st Av
F: Forest Hills/71st Av to Rosevelt Av/Jackson Hts.
G: Rosevelt Av/Jackson Hts. (late night/weekend) to Broadway
(H): G to Hoyt Schermerhorn, into Court Street (Transit Museum)
J: walk from Broadway (G) to Hewes or Lorimer to Broadway Junction
L: Broadway Junction to Myrtle-Wyckoff Aves
M: Myrtle-Wyckoff Aves to Canal St
N: Canal St to 14th St
Q: 14th St to 34th St/Herald Sq
R: 24th St/Herald Sq to 42nd St/Times Square
S: 42nd St/Times Square to Grand Central/42nd St
V: walk from Grand Central/42nd St (S) to 42nd St/Bryant Pk to 34th St Herald Square
W: 34th St Herald Square to Canal Street
Z: Canal St to Broadway Junction --> back to A
Even though there's 2 walk out transfers, they are very small walks. I am still pretty impressed myself that you don't have to walk all the way to a different borough.
This is how to go from Eltingville back to Eltingville.
-SIR from Eltingville station to St George
-FERRY to Manhattan
-(1) to 14 St
-(L) to Union Sq
-(R) to Bay Ridge/86 st
-S79 to Eltingville (SIR station)
-Chris
Can the lamp covers be cleaned easily? Many of them have become tinted yellow by residue and not only on the R62. Are they regularly scheduled to be cleaned?
Cleaning them will make them......cleaner. The yellowing of the covers is a normal occurrence due to age. There's some reason why the white plastic turns yellow from years of exposure to fluorescent light.
Once in a while, you may come across an R-68 with one cover that's whiter and brighter than the rest. That's a new replacement, possibly because of vandalism. I've seen this myself.
Bill "Newkirk"
The PLASTIC acts as a filter that absorbs a good amount of the UV radiation, thus serving to protect the passengers from the UV emitted by the lamps. One of the characteristics of the plastic however after absorbing UV radiation over time is that it tends to "yellow" and this tends to absorb even MORE UV radiation as the yellowing process continues.
In other words, this is a GOOD thing. :)
And wasn't there some commuter train car that touted its germ killing UV lamps before our knowledge of skin cancer was developed?
And you're probably thinking of the R-11's (reborn as R-34's) with their "precipitrons" ... in fact, UV "sterilization" has recently made a comeback in hospitals, although properly enclosed in an opaque metal cabinet. They may have been used elsewhere as well, but it was the R-11's that had them in the NYC subways.
In the navy we had those germicidal lamps in some of the refrigerated spaces. Some kid down in supply thought that they were the regular UV lights that kiddies used back then with their psychodelic posters and such. Put one in the lamp holder over his bed. BAD IDEA! He was injured but I never found out how badly or what else happened. Of course the government bought those things in big bulk packages, and probably didn't have any consumer warnings on them of any sort. And if you obtained them through regular channels for thier intended purposes, then you knew what they were.
Indeed, we even have two of those lamps buring in our walk-in box here at the Abbey. No really big deal. Nobody *lives* in the walk-in box.
Elias
Of course, to your BOOB buddy there, a "blacklight" is nothing more than an UN-PHOSPHORIZED (or LIGHTLY phosphorized) mercury vapor tube with a plastic filter ON the tube that favors UV-A radiation (but let's MORE than enough UV-B and higher through as well) ... granted, in the late 60's, them "day-glo posters" were cool and all, but I wondered why, when I went out into sunlight, I had "retina burn." Whoops. :)
I imagine his injuries were mostly VISUAL, which is a bad thing. As far as fluourescents and the SUBWAYS go though, those yellowish plastic filters let through MUCH less UV than the "new" ones. There's ALWAYS a price for "tech" ... but I'm thankful that I don't need a CELL PHONE. Heh. The UV out of this CRT monitor is MORE than enough radiation, thank you. (and folks worry about a "dirty bomb" if they're not in the neighborhood and even IF so, can't get out and away from the effects toute suite)
Lemme put it THIS way ... I never REPRODUCED. I suspect somehow that all that RF radiation from them 5 megawatt klystron UHF transmitters, working atop Empire on FM transmitters and other non-ionizing radiation may have had a part of it. But then again, shooting blanks back in the days before AIDS made me rather desireable. :)
Bill "Newkirk"
David
Anyways I can't wait for the day the 3 is all R62 and the 4 is only R142/A - The whole R62A {7} for R142A {4 & 6} swap is just a load of crap spread by rabid Flushing riders that wants 'new trains' desperately may I add
Anyways I predict that only the 4's R142A's [probably 1-2 11-car sets] will be moved out again for testing on the 7 then when all is a success the 7 will be the next in line to get the next new IRT trains
BTW I saw R142A 7702 on the 4 again - was this also another set used on that infamous 11-car R142A set?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
The new trucks has a rather large looking shock absorber mounted on the truck frame at a 45 degree angle and attached to the carbody. New M-7's arriving from Bombardier has the new trucks and the present fleet will have the old trucks removed and replaced. Bombardier is picking up the tab for this one. This should solve the "hunting" problem with the old trucks.
If any SubTalkers are chasing the Metro North M-7's, check them to see if their trucks are the new ones. Just look out for that big shock absorber mounted on a 45 degree angle.
Bill "Newkirk"
Of course, expect cracking and fatigue in the bodies / trucks now. All of the laws of physics apply to rail equipment, not just selected ones...
#3 West End Jeff
Now I don't really get a good look at the Coney Island Yard too much, and maybe this is something thats there a lot, but I'm just curious why a Redbird is in there. I know it's definitely not used for regular service and why was it mixed in with trains that are used for regular service?
Can anyone give me any reasons for this?
-Broadway Buffer
Looks like they got Yellowbirds there too.
Maybe they make more Yellowbirds out of them!
We got Yellowbirds out here: they are Meadowlarks.
They got a real nice song,
but nothing like the (N) train going round the corner at Canal Street!
Elias
Koi
Miscellaneous pictures taken at or near CIY
Koi
At least it looked like an apostrophe.
And yea the F shuttle is no more.
Koi
What's going on? They rebuilding it or something?
DON'T rebuild the train (R142/As). DON'T rebuild the yard. Shut down Corona. They don't keep their cars clean.
R142/As rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Keep them the heck out of the cleanliness-poor Corona Yard!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I ride the (7) every day, and the cars are clean, unless it's the winter and it just snowed.
Besides, Corona had been maintaining the last of the R33/36 cars for a number of years, and they fixed up a lone redbird set for the Final Trip back in November. They care about their cars.
Unlike Westchester Yard....
That's my opinion, because the R142As are my favorite cars, and I'd like 'em to be saved by the Livonia and Jerome YAHDS before Westchester completely trashes them.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
I'd rather they send the (4)'s R142s to the (7) and <7>, and the (6) and <6> get the R62As, R142As to the (4) because I wanna see my favorite cars on my favorite line, I don't want any of MY cars (R142s, R142As, R143s) trashed by Westchester.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
1) Dirty strip maps (according to G1Ravage)
2) Screwed up announcements in Manhattan beginning at 125 Street (This is a Brooklyn Bridge-bound (6) train. The next stop is 96th Str... (cut off by door announcement) Stand clear of the closing doors p... (cut off; doors close)
3) Several many bad lighting tubes (they're not dead, but they glow pinkish rather than white like they're supposed to)
THAT is why they need to be taken out of Westchester. Also, because Corona is not as good, it's logical to send them to the (4) (Livonia, Concourse, and Jerome yards), where they will be saved.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Those announcements aren't screwed up, they're just being "interrupted" by the C/R because he's either way behind schedule, or impatient. It happens on EVERY line with New-Tech trains, INCLUDING the (4).
til next time
til next time
However, I am accustomed to it, I videotape the runs through the RFW.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
(sorry, forgot to type that part in at the end)
Corona is not the worst yard in the system by any means. At least their cars are kept pretty clean, though not to the same level as Concourse R-68s.
But in regards to your post...wow... O.O
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
R-32.
#3 West End Jeff
R-32.
Because the yard is built on a swamp, later filled in with ashes and debris, the new buildings foundation will be raised above the surface.
The existing building will be demolished after the new one is finished.
The rumors are wrong. Latest drawings have the Tower (Main Line Master and Yard) located in a new (five story, IIRC) building in the area where the temporary car wash is now.
---
Josh, class of '95
That made me wonder, what schools (any level) are represented by large numbers of subtalkers? Are some institutions churning out more railfans than others? I think I've seen a good number of U Penn and Drexel students posting here.
(By the way, I also did graduate work at the University of Southern Mississippi if there are any USM alums here.)
Just curious about a completely irrelevant topic.
Mark
-Larry
Click here
CG
click here
Da Hui
Peace,
ANDEE
Da Hui
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Haha, pwn3d by the shitty D390!
Peace,
ANDEE
The question is will these Metro North West of Hudson cars that are sittting in Harrison be transferred to Metro North East of Hudson service or will they be retired with the arrival of Metro North Comet V cars.
And to add to the problems, there isn't any direct connection between the Port Jervis Line and the NEC at Secaucus, is there? Some back and forth moves seem to be needed.
Anyone need a fireman for the ride? (grin)
Two Comet-IV's are supposed to revert back to MTA ownership and stay west of Hudson.
The 5 blue-striped MTA cars will also go back east too. They and black-striped MTA cars heading back need to be retrofitted with disk brakes to be compatible with the rest of the GCT-based fleet.
The NJT 1600 and 1700 cars don't have traps. They will likely go to tourist RR's of commuter railroads outsside the NE. They could be retrofitted with traps however, but NJT is too lazy to do it. It is not a big deal.
After a brief moment, the 4 train on the express track leaves, and the 4 train on the local track waits for the signal to clear.
I walk towards the front of the train and as I'm passing the conductor's car, the doors start to close. The platform was too crowded for me to make an attempt to get into the car ahead of the conductor, so I reluctantly let the train go.
Then another announcement: "The next uptown 6 local train is approaching Astor Place." Yes, that's right, Astor Place, 5 stations away. Then, yet another interesting announcement: "The 6 train arriving on the uptown express track will be making local stops. 51st Street next."
I look down the express track and see a 4 train pulling in. Then, lo and behold, a 5 train comes in on the local track.
An announcement similar to the one about the previous 4 train on the local track is made. I manage to get on the 5 train and it cuts ahead of the 4 train on the express track and heads up to 59th Street.
What a wacky day on the Lex! What was going on?
The F will run from 179th St to Hoyt-Schermerhorn. The G will run from Court Sq to Stillwell Av.
Get those cameras ready (like I have to say that).
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf_f/24_fgre3.pdf
Regardless, if an OPTO stop marker is missing, a T/O will stop at the 6 car marker; or, at worst the end of the platform/10 car marker.
But it's a weekend G.O., so there is no < 6 >, < 7 >, 9, B, V, W, Z service, no 5 rush hour extensions in the Bronx and Brooklyn, no Rockaway Park A, no M to Manhattan, and the J terminates at Chambers St. Also the A should run express in Brooklyn because the F will be the local train to Euclid.
Now I can catch my breath.
You always do great, but I didn't mean to nitpick but weekend M trains are shuttles north of Myrtle Ave and the 5 also ends at Bowling Green.
M train: thought you meant the M from Brooklyn; 5 and 6 both end at Bowling Green on the map. "Bowling Red" ???
This does not count a 300 foot section of the L line, which also leaves and re-enters Brooklyn between Wilson and Halsey St stations.
But not via Manhattan, though, like the M. Well, I made a final version, it's in the same album. Admire...;-)
The only other change is that the Court Square - Stillwell leg is being called the G, not the F. I wonder if it will run F equipment, including R-32's.
Well I don't know if they will really terminate F's at Hoyt and have G's run through the station. I also think that the F will probably go to Euclid Av. This is most likely to avoid a shuttle bus on the F.
Da Hui
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf_f/24_cno.pdf
you're not reading between the lines, so to speak.
note also the cancellation of C trains on the same date, and the A train running local in Manhattan ONLY on the same date, is local service cancelled in Brooklyn that day?
B - where on any publication or notice does it say anything other than A in Brooklyn for this G.O.?
C - I'd rather go with the idea that makes more sense (A in Bklyn) rather than one that is less sensible (F makes C stops).
Please enlighten me.
Why try to relay it at Lafayette when it might as well fill in for the C?
whatever. I'm taking the BMT to work that day.
If a GO contradicts a service advisory, the GO wins.
#3 West End Jeff
N : runs local between astoria and coney island via sea beach and lower manhattan
Q : stays the same
R : stays the same
W: local over west end, express between 36 st brooklyn and 57 st manhattan, local up second avenue to 125st-lex
B : runs brighton express rush hours and middays, runs as brighton local all other times
D: stays the same
M : eliminated from brooklyn
Where do you want to turn the Q? At 57 all tracks are in use with the
other lines.
wayne
I think not, said Descartes, and he was never seen again!
You have to look at both ends of the route, and I think that what they have made is about the best that they could do.
Broadway has 2 Express Services and 2 Local Services
6th Avenue has 2 "Express" and 2 "Local" Service.
(Those are not really express or local but rather a "Bronx & Bridge" Service, and a "Queens & Tunnel" Service."
Please do not even think of switching between the Express and Local Tracks in Manhattan as this delays the service.
So what is left:
The Brighton Lion:
(Q) 24/7 Local CI -> 57th Street via Broadway
(B) 16/6 Express Brighton Beach -> Bronx via 6th Avenue
The West End Lion:
(D) 24/7 Local CI -> The Bronx via 6th Avenue Express
(M) Rush Hours Bay Pky -> Metropolitan Avenue
The Sea Beach Lion:
(N) 24/7 Local CI -> Astoria via Broadway Express (via Bridge)
(W) Put-Ins Kings Hwy -> Astoria via Local
[N] Local at Night
Fourth Avenue Lion:
(RR) 16/7 Local 95th Street -> Queens Blvd via Local
[RR] Shuttle at Night
The Culver Lion:
(F) 24/7 Local CI -> 179th Street via 6th Avenue
(GG) 24/7 Local Church Avenue -> Court Square via Crosstown Local
(E) 16/5 Local Church -> Jamacia Center via 8th Avenue Local
[F] = Exp Jay St -> Church Ave when (E) is running.
(V) to Chambers WTC
: ) Elias
Oyster Bay - (local stops) Mineola - Queens Village - Hollis - Jamaica - Long Island City (via Lower Montauk). I wonder when the last direct train from Hollis to Long Island City was????
It will be interesting to see the Double Deckers making local stops in Queens. With the exception of Jamaica/HPA/LIC, this is extremely rare (I believe one of the AM dual modes makes a local stop at Kew Gardens).
One thing I couldn't figure out about the summer schedules. The LIRR website shows a separate set of timetables for the Ronkonkoma branch for the week of 6/14 - 6/20 (which is the week of the US Open). But I didn't see anything on these schedules that is any different than the ones currently in effect.
CG
I've seen new schedules that are exactly like the previous ones, happens all the time.....go figure.
They have special schedules for the Montauk for that week also, but there the changes are obvious (some busses replace trains between Patchogue and Speonk).
CG
I am not familiar with this part of LA. Is the site simply abandoned and waiting for development or is it used for freight?
Image 31079 is two blocks to the north, shows the square tower at the Lexington El turnout even more clearly, and is right at the Ralph and Lexington Avenues and Bway intersection.
Both images are of trolleys on the Ralph / Rockaway Avenues line, Bushwick and Bed-Stuy, Bklyn.
A few blocks to the southeast, but not visible in either of these images, are the Loew's Gates, Monroe, and RKO Bushwick Theaters.
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0423/haber.php
I've hit most media outlets with the press release. Sounds like some of them are definitely coming out to play sunday.
The plot thickens.
The R38's are only on the A and C lines are partial and are based from 207th st and Pitkin Yards. There is also a small underground yard, called 174th st in Manhattan, that is just north of the C local relay tracks at 169th Street in Washington Heights.
Information for R32 and R38 subway cars includes the car numbers and what happened to a few of the cars (accident, wreck, renumbered, etc.). For the R32, there are a bunch of mis-matched pairs that are also listed.
The R38's are only on the A and C lines are partial and are based from 207th st and Pitkin Yards. There is also a small underground yard, called 174th st in Manhattan, that is just north of the C local relay tracks at 169th Street in Washington Heights.
Have a nice weekend.
The R32/38/40 and 42 cars come in pairs of two before assemlbing at random into 8 or 10 car sets. In practice a "pair" is 2 cars numbered consecutively (3501-3502, 4456-4457), etc. A "mismatched" pair is a set of 2 cars that are NOT in numerical order (e.g. 3501 would ordinarly be paired with 3500, but instead is mismatched with 3745.). Car mismatches do not affect train performance, they are just an interesting way to spot them during the course of your subway travel.
A 10 car set may look like this:
3500-3501, 3368-3369, 3781-3946, 3524-3525, 3489-3701, 3384-3385
In the above example, the 3781-3946 and the 3489-3701 are the mismatched pairs because they are not numbered next to each other.
til next time
til next time
The front roll signs (route and destination) were removed during GOH and replaced by single-character flip-dot route signs because installation of air conditioning equipment inside the cars made it difficult to place a mechanism for changing the roll signs. The digital signs are controlled from the #1 cab using a dial that includes letters A through Z (capital letters only), digits 0 through 9, and, I believe, a few other characters.
David
til next time
-Broadway Buffer
til next time
David
Yes, I have the same question.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
til next time
Or go to Corona and walk over the footbridge for free. You never know what you'll see there-Redbirds, R21/22 work cars.
BUT THOSE ARE NOT OLD CARS!!!!!!!
Sheesh! I remember riding R9s every day!
Heck the FIRST car I rode on was made of WOOD!
and was running ton the 3rd Avenue el..... IN MANHATTAN!!!
: ) Elias
(You YOUNG Whippersnapper!)
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=716660
http://photographersrights.mtude.com/
til next time
1) Jamaica also feeds the V line.
2) East NY Yard also feeds the M line.
3) Carnarsie yd. is a satalite yard for East NY.
4) B is the responsibility of Coney Island, not Concourse yard.
We seem to be talking about yards in this thread, not shop assignments. Don't some B trains lay up in Concourse Yard?
David
There are some B's at the Concourse Yard. Not just the Coney Island Shops. And I think there are even some D's at the Coney Island Yard. I often see D's going up the ramp that connects the Coney Island Yard to the West End Line at Bay 50 St in the morning.
And I have a question. Even though the W's no longer go anywhere near Coney Island, are they still kept at the Coney Island Yard like Joe c said?
-Broadway Buffer
Yup... What else yard could they get to?
That is why the (RR) trains were moved to Continential Avenue... for access to the Jamaica Yard.
When the Wnet from Astoria to 95th street, there was no convient yard for them at all.
Elias
til next time
239th - 2
240th - 1/9
Corona - 7
E 180th - 2/5
Lenox - 3
Livonia - 2/3/5
Westchester - 6
Corrections would be thanked if you see any and after will someone tell me the shops now not the yards if they know thanks alot.
When you really think about it, a majority of the yards, like Livonia, Westchester, etc.., have small shops for minor maintenance. However, when the big jobs have to be performed, the fleets go to where they have the tooling for that specific car type:
R142/142A go to East 180 St
R44's and R38's go to Pitkin
R46's and Jamaica R32's to Jamaica
R68A, R68, R40S, R42, R40m go to Coney Island
R68 on the D go to Concourse
R62 go to Jerome Park(that might have changed)
R62A go to 240 St(maybe others)(7 line R62A also go to Coney Island)
I might need some corrections on some of these assignments, so I'm basically giving you what I might know. Back in the 70's and 80's, all equipment operated everywhere, so you never knew where that particular car would end up. Nowadays to save a maintenance headache, cars of a particular class are assigned to one shop and yard.
Regards,
Jimmy
til next time
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
David
2421 92392 3 5207A C 1 91802 5174C1371 936-38D RCanarsieLCity HallR WConcourseB D 4Coney IslandB D F M N Q R S WCorona7East NYJ L M ZFresh PondMJamaicaE F G R VJerome4New Lots2 3 4 5PitkinA C SRock ParkA SWestchester6
I did see an M come out of there, though - but that was before February.
Jamaica - R/F/G/E/V
Canarsie/ENY - J/Z/L/M
Concourse/Jerome - 4/B/D
Coney Island - N/Q/W/S
Fresh Pond - M
Pitkin - A/C
Rockaways - A/C/S
207th -A/C
239th - 2
240th - 1/9
Corona - 7
E 180th - 2/5
Lenox - 3
Livonia - 2/3/4/5
Westchester - 6
Now is there any changes and is there anymore yards that are not on the site like 174th and Molushou. Please keep me up to date please.
-Chris
til next time
Regards,
Jimmy
OMFG I almost pissed my pants when I saw that.... LOL!
Translation please for non-residents. Would a White Castle be related to a "terlit"?
White Castle is a fast food place that's famous for serving tiny little square hamburgers. Most people eat at least six of them at a time. They're the sort of thing that you have to be in the right mood to want - but if you are in that mood, they're irresistible.
But what a way to go.
Mmmkay, remind me to never sleep in the same bunk as you :)
When I first bited into a WC burger, it tasted to weird to me but after revisiting that taste sometime last year, I've grown to love it. White Castle is the original food fast chain of America.
Not that I'm implying any of the bigwigs should cut back on their trips to the Castle.
WC meaning "White Castle" — not "water closet".
There are probably a lot more, those are the only ones I know of.
-Broadway Buffer
Amen to the connection between White Castle and farting. I can believe that! I never ate there because I couldn't stand the smell of that place!
Bob
No, that's Saddam Hussein's gay porn collection...
However, that rule is not often enforced as the police have been known to move along so as to permit the passenger-led beatdown of the perpetrator to continue unabated.
Butt Indigestion Emerging.
That happened at work yesterday. A colleague had egg rolls and beer the night before, and it all fermented until he let one loose. Almost as bad as the one he ripped - during our departmental meeting last fall - after having chocolate milk and a green apple for lunch. We cleared out of that room in about ten seconds flat.
#3 West End Jeff
You'd think photography would be useful in documenting such an atrocity, but the cameras would turn out to be of little use once the lenses melt...
Just pray the shoe holds true and you don't get any sparks off the third rail, or a good fraction of the UWS might disappear :)
#3 West End Jeff
Well then just stand by the A/C intake vent by the #1 and release your brakes ! That way everyone can share in the experience.
Bill "Newkirk"
*FART*
:D
NOT NICE!
Okay ya got me on (A), but (B) the last time I was in his presence -- my nose and my lungs were trying to leave the room without me!
Except that before giving the fair warning, rip a live one in the adjacent car, so they walk right into it. Serves em right for passing between cars...
Kinda like a Dutch Oven, but rail-related...
You can put your feet up too. I dont think they would really care as long as it is not too crowded.
-Chris
Suuuuuuure.... It's always somebody else... :)
Remember, He who smelt it dealt it.
yeah, we'll see how long [i][b]that[/b][/i] lasts.....
:-)
:-)
:-)
This site is, literally, a GAS!!
There was some power outage.
Anymore info?
All I asked was why there was a power outage or something.
And you guys say you dont ignore me. -_-
But it was a simple question.
Hell, even the trolls get more responces.
And that was a lame excuse not to answer, typos are common.
Yes I'm still tired.
I'm sorry you feel ignored. v.v
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/04/nyregion/04subway.html
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, I've noticed that. I've wondered if the chipping was from too tight bolts or a chemical reaction between the bolts and the signs. Also, the signs have been disappearing.
But yeah....I'd like to see a comeback by RDCs. Ya know, I think Colorado Railcar has a car that looks like an old RDC. Flat front, single level, only difference as far as looks go that I can find is the doors. They are on the lower level(kinda like low floor buses) and in the center of the car, not on the sides.
The one thing that I really love about Colorado's stuff, it's all low level platform boarding(except the AeroDMU I think can do both). I just wish there was space here to build low platforms at the current stations. The Babylon line would be impossible to do that with.
The "Aero DMU" has steps and trapdoors all right.
I really wish they'd just come out with a car that has doors on the vestibule level and the lower level, and a ramp connecting the 2 levels.
Basically, have single leaf doors on the sides of the car for high level platforms, and then on the lower level, have a pair of center doors for the lower level platforms.
So far, the only car I've seen that would be able to have something like this done, is Kawasaki's lower level boarding cars. The vestibule is close enough to the lower level(in height) and has the space for a ramp(this would be for wheelchairs, BTW, to access both levels. Example: person in wheelchairs boards train on lower level at low level platform, the persons destination is a high level platform, this ramp allows them to reach the door for that platform).
And maybe by taking out 4 seats on each end of the car, I think the Bombardier bilevels can do the same thing.
I remember when the Babylon Lion *was* all low level platforms, and at ground level as well.
I loved coming into Merrick Station, standing on the bottom step hanging way out of the car as it came into the station!
The High Level cars are better, load faster, with more interior room, and greater safety.
Are there any low-level, meaning low floor EMU commuter units (not counting street cars). Most cars, thinking of Chicago Land and SP type commuters were high level cars with steps just inside of the doorway, opening onto a low level platform, usually with yet another step down rather than even with the platform.
Elias
No EMUs . . . but that's because there are no electrified territories where such would be used. Unless Caltrain were to electrify, as they have been planning to do long-term.
When you mention "Chicagoland", then remember that Metra Electric system has high platforms.
Plenty of push-pull low-floor commuter cars out there, like the Bombardier bilevels and the Pacific Surfliners. No reason why a design like that could not be built as either an EMU or DMU. Were the LIRR an all-low-platform system, wouldn't cars such as those not only load faster but perhaps even be safer (no chance of falling off a low platform and breaking an appendage the same way as with a 53-inch-tall high platform)?
Small world...
No and No
Cars boarding at low level platforms with low level boarding are much safer, especially for stations on curves, b/c there's no risk of falling through the gap.
As for boarding faster, I don't think faster, but certainly just as fast.
Regular low-level passenger cars have STEPS just inside of the doorways.
It is one step up from the platform to the car, and then several steps up once you are inside of the car.
Newer low-level cars i.e. the GO type cars are a little different, I presume, but they still have stairways in them to get to the upper level, and this is a real bottle neck for getting on and settled or getting off of a train.
AMTK type bi-levels have a step or two up, (usually the conductor must put a portable step on the ground depending on what the station configutation is) There is a bit of a lower level vestibule, but then passengers must go upstairs for the train. There are no elevators: Handicapped persons are transported on this lower level, and the stewards will bring meals to them. GACK! if I ride on a train, I want to walk around: go to the club car, the dining car, the caboose...
Elias
Also, they aren't really a bottle neck. People who don't want to exert the effort to walk up the stairs have the common sense to just sit on the lower level.
As for your desire to move around the train, most people, including me, feel the same. That's why I've been looking at some many current designs and looking for ways to improve them. One is Kawasaki's low level boarding bi-level. There is enough room to replace the stairs with a ramp at a grade safe enough for wheelchair use, and to add doors on the vestibule level. So now, people in wheelchairs can board at low level platforms and detrain at high level platforms with no hassle.
I think the same thing may be possible with the Bombardier bi-levels, but it requires removing seats(4 on each end).
I've also designed a car with single leaf doors on the ends of the cars on the vestibule level, as well as double doors in the center of the lower level, with a ramp connecting the 2 levels. I've got designs with this for both single level and bi-level cars. I'm still trying to figure out how to get more seats in while still making it comfortable(2x2 seating only except for some long bench style seating).
Now why do you think I showed you BBD bilevels and not gallery cars? No steps inside those doorways. And with modernized low platforms, there is no step into the car—it's level with the doorway just as with low-floor LRVs.
Newer low-level cars i.e. the GO type cars are a little different, I presume, but they still have stairways in them to get to the upper level, and this is a real bottle neck for getting on and settled or getting off of a train
And there was and is no such bottleneck on any of the LIRR's bilevels? I would definitely say that it's quicker to get off a BBD bilevel than off a C-3. Stairs are a necessity on a bilevel and they are no impediment to loading/unloading.
AMTK type bi-levels have a step or two up, (usually the conductor must put a portable step on the ground depending on what the station configutation is) There is a bit of a lower level vestibule, but then passengers must go upstairs for the train. There are no elevators
You're talking about Superliners. Surfliners have a different configuration. If you can stick with discussing commuter cars, then we can continue . . . unless you want to suggest having Amfleets on the LIRR?
: )
I can only speak of the cars that I have seen, not those that I have not seen. Please do show me some photos of these other cars.
But, now that you have made the train stop at a level platform, the arguments to getting caught in the gaps or what not, apply wether the platforms are high level or not.
He was discussing ramps inside of a rail car, and that is not realistic from an ADA viewpoint.
Elias
NO! It is A LOT more dangerous!
People respect a 4 1/2 foot chasam.
They do NOT respec a 12 to 18 inch step down to the rails.
They will step down there all of the time to pass by other commuters waiting on the platform.
To little kids it looks like a nice little bench to sit on, and dangle their legs down toward the tracks. THAT WILL NOT look very pretty when the train comes in!
The more distance you put between the geese and the tracks, the safer the geese will be.
Elias
OK . . . why and why?
(For my part, I would prefer the low platforms because after hearing about people "pinned" between train and high platforms, I regard them as safer inherently.)
Just one of the many reasons I prefer lows also.
I think that you are incorect. If you have a platform that meets the carbody without a step, then someone could get pinned in there regardless of how high it is off the ground.
I think a high platform is SAFER, because people have much more respect for the trackway.
On a low platform people will think nothing of stepping down there for whatever purpose, or kids will sit on the edge with their legs over the side. It does not *look* treatening, and the thing can kill you just as easily as a high platform can.
Elias
And about your thing with sitting over the edge, people do that on highs already. The good thing bout lows, if they fall(i admit, this did happen to me once at Greenlawn), it's alot harder to get up onto the platform than if it was a low.
Up to the waist?
"The High Level cars are better, load faster, with more interior room, and greater safety"
That would be a species, sorry. Genus itself would be "Panthera" . . .
"The High Level cars are better, load faster, with more interior room, and greater safety"
I think not, said Descartes (and he was never seen again!)
The Kingly Lion *was * making a reply to some creature who was Not In My Back Yard, cause if he was in my back yard, he would have been Felid Food by now!
Anyway, said creature said:
"The one thing that I really love about Colorado's stuff, it's all low level platform boarding(except the AeroDMU I think can do both). I just wish there was space here to build low platforms at the current stations. The Babylon line would be impossible to do that with."
: ) Elias (and the Broadway Lion!)
Yeah, but I mean now it is impossible to add low level platforms to the high level platform stations.
"The High Level cars are better, load faster, with more interior room, and greater safety."
High level boarding is definately not safer. There's always that stupid gap(I always see little kids gettin there foot stuck, wheelchairs getting front wheels stuck, strollers getting stuck, etc etc), and it's even worse on stations on curves.
As for speed, a car with doors on the lower level for low platforms will board just as fast as a car with doors on the vestibule level for high level platforms....and it is safer too.
More interior room? How so?
Nimby the alternative is to drag wheelchairs up the steps
A]little kids falling down steps
B]dragging Grandma and her walker up or down steps.
C]people with packages falling due to steps and hands full
D]strollers not being able to go up or down steps.
E] no handycap accesebility
>As for speed, a car with doors on the lower level for low platforms >will board just as fast as a car with doors on the vestibule level >for high level platforms....and it is safer too.
low level is most certainly slower loading, see reasons I gave you above.
rail cars can not be made to accomodate all those people on lower fllor and cars so low as not to be able to put the systems under.
in your make belief world they do but in reality its just the oposite of what you believe.
Non of this is a problem on a car with low level boarding, which is what I'm trying to say. I agree, cars with doors on what would really be the vestibule level boarding at low level platforms via stairs is dangerous and a hassle, but if the doors are on the same level as the platform, then it's just as fast and safer. Examples: Tri-rail, Metrolink, and anything else that uses the Bombardier bi-levels.
"low level is most certainly slower loading,"
Like I said, not with doors on the lower level
"rail cars can not be made to accomodate all those people on lower fllor and cars so low as not to be able to put the systems under."
Then how does Bombardier do it?
"in your make belief world they do but in reality its just the oposite of what you believe"
So I take it Tri-rail and Metrolink are just my imagination?
That's not the point. And still, what about the C3's, those could've had doors on the lower level as well.
"would not comply with ADA if both levels were used"
"Just remeber that a person entering on a high level platform would need to get off at same level."
Not so if a ramp were installed. Kawasaki's low level boarding bi-level car has ample room already for a ramp at a safe incline level as well as room to add doors on the vestibule level without taking any seats.
Also, I've designed a bi-level car with double doors in the center of the lower level and single leaf doors on the ends of the car at vestibule level, and a ramp connecting the 2(upper level reached via stairs).
Breda did exactly that with the Type 8's. Yes they suck, but it can be done.
High level platforms are definitely much more efficient, but if for whatever reason high levels are not possible, then with increased vehicle costs you can engineer a heavy rail train with low platforms and ADA compliance. Stupid thing to do, but it can be done.
Such hazzards are present at all modern low-levle platforms, and the older kind have some huge steps to make it to the car.
More interior room? How so?
You do not need a place to put the interior steps.
Elias
Not true. Level boarding on the lower level of cars eliminates the gap and the stairs.
"You do not need a place to put the interior steps"
You don't need them either if the boarding is on the lower level. The only stairs needed would be on bi-levels going from the vestibule to the upper level(lower to vestibule is via ramp for wheelchairs to use also).
You, sir are full of hot beans! Used, Hot Beans!
Wheelsets are 36" in diameter.
There are several inches of clearance above the wheelesets.
There is the thickness of the car frame, and the floor.
You, sir, KNOW how high subway cars are.
That is the clearance needed for the wheelsets.
Wheelsets are set back several feet from the anticlimbers
Wheelsets are at least 10 feet in length.
So let us say that the wheelsets take up 14 feet at either end of the car.
That is 28' that MUST be at high level, and leaves a maximum of 57 feet of useable lowlevel car length.
TO BE ADA COMPLIENT a ram grade needs to be 1 INCH of rise for every 1 FOOT of travel. So this idea of a ramp that you bandy about as being ADA Complient is NOTHING OF THE SORT unless it is 30 feet long, (assuming a rise of 30 inches) They do not put these things in railway cars.
Now this platform you keep talking about.
Low level platforms are no longer these things that are one or more steps down from the car floor. Modern Low Level Platforms, to be fully ADA complient but match up with the doors the same way that high level platforms do. ERGO the gaps and issues that you cite with high level platforms are ALL present with these "Low Level Platforms."
I am sorry (no I'm not really) to quash your illusions related to the low level platforms, but effiency and safety go to the HIGH LEVEL PLATFORMS.
Elias
Modern low level platform boarding techniques allow for level boarding similar to those on a high level platform. And with a few simple tweaks here and there, there can be absolutely no gap(and even with the gap, the fall isn't as dangerous or harmful as those with a high level platform).
Ok, so, you know how most low level boarding cars have sort of a step(very very small, kinda like a lil lip, i think subway cars have them). Well, wit the push of a button, or not even, how about when the doors open at the low level platform station, they tilt down, forming a small ramp about 3 inches long to allow for wheelchairs to enter the car seamlessly, as well as removing the threat of pax tripping on that little step(I'm sure very few do it now, but I'm sure it does happen once in a while).
Now, as for the ramp, if the ADA standard is what you say it is(which I don't believe, cuz I've definately seen ramps steeper than that), then a simple wheelchair lift can work just as well. Wheelchairs are only need I believe 2.5 feet of room. So say a lift about 3ft wide, there, there's still plenty of room.
The high low platform debate is a moot point because there are solutions on each of the networks. The reason MTA converted to all high operation is because many of the MTA's service area is already high platform and it makes sense to do the rest. High platforms are extremely wasteful in terms of space between the two trucks that cannot be utilized. On the other hand space is wasted in a bilevel because there needs to be room for staircases and if tri-level an additional vestibule.
In short: high platforms make sense where most things are already high platform (like Penn Sta.) low platforms are great where most things are low platform and you have the overhead clearance to run bilevels (like LA, Chicago, and TriRail). In New York, high levels are the order of the day because there is insufficient overhead clearance to design a good bilevel car.
Do you realy think that when a railroad buys a car that they just look in a brochure of say Bombardier and buy or do you believe in hundreds and hundreds of design engineers and lawyers.
Unfortunately, despite all this engineering by very competent engineers, the final decision rests with the politicos whose only concerns are in this order: (1) re-electability (2) price tag.
AEM7
I'd really appreciate it if you would take the time and read my full post before going off and babling to me about something I did not say.
That is the requirement that we had to meet for a wheelchair ramp when we remodled our church.
Yes, there are ramps steeper than that. NFPA codes permit much steeper ramps and they will still qualify as an exit. I have also seen ramps much much steeper, which would not qualify under NFPA codes, but were built long before such NFPA codes were created. And others who make ramps flat out do not care about codes. A dentist in Hebron had such a ramp, and it took two people to pull a wheelchair up it, and still you had to be very carefull, for it could not negeotiate the angle change at the bottom. (i.e. it would tip the chair over frontwards, dumping the patient onto the ground.)
The "Wheelchair" ramp from our plarking lot to our building was built in compliance with NFPA, but does not qualify as ADA complient. Yes, I as infirmarian have no trouble taking patients up and down that ramp, but if you sit in a wheelchair and try it by yourself, it is much more difficult, and the elderly on infirm certainly cannot do it. Powered wheelchairs and carts have no trouble whatsoever.
To be ADA complient, a patient in a wheelchair must be able to negeotiate the ramp on his own, even if they are elderly or infirm. If you are going to advertize your equipment as ADA complient, then this is the standard you need to meet.
AMTK trains do not meet this standard, but with crew help, a wheelchair passenger can be accomodated on the train.
Elias
Now, at this point, if the ramp really needs to be a certain grade(I think someone with limited strength can still push their chair a little steeper than 1 inch per foot, but that's kinda moot right now), then I think saving money and installing a 3 foot wide lift would do just fine.
Does ADA allow those in wheelchairs to operate lifts on their own(obviously provided that the lifts are simple to operate).
Yes, that is why they are handicapped accessible. That is, of course if the lift complies with regulations, otherwise an atendant is required.
We have two elevators in our building. One is a regular passenger elevator and anybody can operate it.
The other is sort of a freight/passenger elevator. It had doors that you open outward manually, and a car gate that you must left. It is heavy, and awkawrd. And it is a manual elevator: you must keep your finger on the button to operate it. No it is not handicapped accessible, but of course, that is the way we always took wheelchair people to the cafeteria building.
Because it would cost so much to fix that elevator we built a "slype" connecting our main building to the cafeteria building. It is five feet wide, and about 100 feet long. "Skinniest building I ever built" says the builder. But it was built on the foundations of an existing below grade tunnel, and so the foundations costs were much lowered.
Still it cost us $250,000 because we didn't want to put the money into fixing that elevator. And because we wanted a pleasant passageway that we could all walk through between the church and the refectory. And while some people scoffed at the idea, it has proven to be well worth the price we paid for it, and we are happy with our purchase.
Now to get back on topic: I was wondering how I might build a subway layout in the old subway tunnel.
: ) Elias
Yes, that is why they are handicapped accessible. That is, of course if the lift complies with regulations, otherwise an atendant is required.
We have two elevators in our building. One is a regular passenger elevator and anybody can operate it.
The other is sort of a freight/passenger elevator. It had doors that you open outward manually, and a car gate that you must left. It is heavy, and awkawrd. And it is a manual elevator: you must keep your finger on the button to operate it. No it is not handicapped accessible, but of course, that is the way we always took wheelchair people to the cafeteria building.
Because it would cost so much to fix that elevator we built a "slype" connecting our main building to the cafeteria building. It is five feet wide, and about 100 feet long. "Skinniest building I ever built" says the builder. But it was built on the foundations of an existing below grade tunnel, and so the foundations costs were much lowered.
Still it cost us $250,000 because we didn't want to put the money into fixing that elevator. And because we wanted a pleasant passageway that we could all walk through between the church and the refectory. And while some people scoffed at the idea, it has proven to be well worth the price we paid for it, and we are happy with our purchase.
Now to get back on topic: I was wondering how I might build a subway layout in the old subway tunnel.
: ) Elias
The topic is actually about Budd SPVs.
Regards,
Jimmy
When the RDC's felt like moving, they were sweet. A vertiable *BUS* on rails with the PROPER kind of tires. Heh. On the Croton-Po'town run, it was usually a pair of RDC-1's, sometimes three - dunno how many they ran on Danbury or the Hartford branches ... I had the chance to run the ones on the Hudson line often though thanks to a lazy buddy of mine. (grin) Croton maintained them VERY well, and I suspect that the motors and trannies were never modified. TESTAMENT to good mechanics!
AEM7
Never heard the story of what became of them, and that's just downright sad. And to hear that one of the dispatchers HERE was STUPID enough to put them behind the power instead of mounting a FRED on them, well ... knowing the Selkirk people from that time, I'm just stunned. I know Meatball North had four of them, two on the Hudson line and two others that were pretty much relegated to car shoves at Mott Haven. New Haven had at least three though - wonder what became of those?
Why would a car with a blue card be moved at all. A blue flag means "DO NOT MOVE!"
If there was a problem with the consist, ought not the engineer or the conductor refused to move the consist?
Elias
The concept of RDC's, SPV's and now "Colorado Railcars" seems just so SIMPLE ... but direct drive of a railcar from small diesel motors has never equalled the tractive effort of just generating electrons and letting even a DC traction motor do the work. :(
You'd THINK that direct-drive internal combustion trainsets would be reliable - seems like a no-brainer ... and yet, NONE of them worked as good as ELECTRIC traction. Go figure. :)
There have also been diesel-hydrolic units, and those are still used in Europe AFIK. When I was in the Navy back in the 60's there was a model railroad running on 15" (I think, coulda been 7") gauge tracks.
They hand built a beauty of an EMD unit, and they used diesel-hydrolic for its propultion.
Elias
So what did leaving off the additional motors gain for them?
Keeping the weight below 80,000?
Seems STOOPIT to me, given as balky as those things were, perhaps it would have been good to have the fireman on board to repair balky motors.
Elias
Duh...
: )
Like, where were they going to put the fire anyway?
: ) Elias
Here's another one: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=23248
I assume these are RDC's?
(Where the hell was I when all this equipment was around? :( )
You know the cars and trucks are moving faster than the BART trains in the median on 1-580?....that's what I see every time I ride in a car with my family.
Arthur
I didn't know LIRR trains had red stripes on the sides...
Little do they know. There are a lot of railfans out there who'll notice in a flash.
Besides... it *is* hard to tell what color the car is on RADIO!
: ) Elias
http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2004/Bills/A3000/2828_I1.HTM
Do you think that maybe they might have connections to someone who'd benefit from the installation of concrete ties and that this is a backhanded way of procuring some business? Nah, not in NJ, what was I thinking?
Your pal,
Fred
I take it that plastic ties are still an option?
Hardwood ties contribute to the destruction of forest is correct. Composite ties, concrete ties, steel ties, untreated wood ties are all alternatives. In a shortline environment, where the majority of wear comes from weather and not tonnage-related items, composite ties and concrete ties make no sense. Concrete ties can cost some 6-10 times of wood ties, and lasts maybe 1.5x as long if the sole wear and tear comes from the weather. True, you can decrease the crosstie density when moving to concrete, but not enough to offset the added costs.
For the shortline, you're really better off using crappy untreated wood ties that need replacing every 10 years. You don't know from year to year if that line will stay open.
http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?docid=1G1:18714232&refid=ink_d3&skeyword=lumber&teaser=...Products+the+operating+arm+of+U.S.+Plastic+Lumber+Corp.+The+Boca+Raton+Fla.based+manufacturer+of+recycled+plastic+lumber+has+been+granted+exclusive+rights+to...David+Farrow+president+U.S+Plastic+Lumber+.+In+addition+to+being+comparably+priced...
http://www.plasticsresource.com/s_plasticsresource/sec.asp?TRACKID=&CID=128&DID=230
http://www.netcomposites.com/news.asp?1195
The bill only prohibits the state from funding the purchase of creosote treated ties.
Nor does it specifically state railroads can't use them. In fact, the word "railroad" is only mentioned once, in reference to railroad crossties, though it does not state the use of such ties.
Further, it applies to any use of creosote treated wood, not simply ties, and not simply for RR applications (of which none are mentioned anyway). Nor does it state RR ties for RR applications, by the letter of the bill, the state cannot fund the use of creosote treated wood, for anything.
Nowhere does the bill prohibit private companies from using such products, nor does it state RRs can't use them. It only prohibits the state from funding the use of creosote treated wood.
It also does not apply to any "Independant state authority", which if we readf the definitions at the beginning:
"Independent State authority" means a body, public and corporate, created by law, which provides that the public body so created has at least the powers to adopt and use a corporate seal, to sue and be sued, to acquire and hold real property for its purposes, and to provide for and secure the payment of its bonds or other obligations;
Well, NJT and the PA would probbably be exempt under the law anyway...
Instead of simply screaming the sky is falling, could we, in the future, look at the actual text of the bill and try to make sense of it?
Besides, i See wood ties that have to be more than 10 years old, some 50 years, and a few spots over 80 years old rotting away.
Plus, i like to keep my agruement going on, how often do you see track's being replaced compared to a road being stripped, milled and repaved?
Mark
At BSM we have built a retaining wall for our carhouse expansion out of re-used concrete ties from Amtrak. They didn't crumble when removed from the NEC, BTW.
Can't use them under the rails, as they are that "funny narrow gauge" the railroads insist on using.
Wooden ties, in shortline installations (less than 2 MGT) and in a reasonable climate (i.e. not extra wet like the Pacific Northwest), last about 30 years before they have to be replaced. More typically, the railroads will replace one tie in 10 every 3 years (or so), and they will replace ties that have rotted away on an inspection basis.
Besides, i See wood ties that have to be more than 10 years old, some 50 years, and a few spots over 80 years old rotting away.
Wood ties are remarkably long lasting as long as weather leaves them alone and track gangs leave them alone. In very dry weather they crack and crumble, and in very wet weather they crumble. Concrete ties have different problems, they hasten rail and truck wear (because they don't give at all), they also wear a lot quicker (vibrating against ballast) and in about 50 years they get to the point where they are not structurally suitable for running trains over anymore. In territory with lots of high speed running or very heavy tonnages, concrete ties don't last that much longer than wooden ties.
What are the failure mechanisms in concrete ties? Is it cracking? Also, are they reinforced with steel rebar?
Spalling, bottom wear, cracking, fastening mechanism becoming worn, and breaking if the subgrade is not good.
I thought that stuff was banned from everywhere long ago...
IIRC, it's REAL nasty when it burns, too..
Da Hui
You people are making a bigger deal out of this then it really is.
John
If this is so, then these operators should close up there operations and abandon their lines or sell off the there plant to an operator that can run the line without any state aid.
John
Mark
There would be no point. Composite shell would make the cost of the tie go up. Most of the cost in a tie is in the processing and not in the raw materials. Composite is cheap, as is wood. Wood-composite hybrid would be expensive, because composite would have to be moulded onto the wood instead of just being moulded or just cutting wood out of a tree.
The shortline solution is always going to be wood. In fact, the ultimate shortline is untreated wood or logs -- or even just build the railroad on top of rock and sand and hold the gauge with gauging rods. The MOW types think I am crazy but I invite you to go look at some of the operations in Peru. True, they don't run 263,000 lbs cars but most shortlines can't take them anyhow.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Some SubTalkers have said that in the 1970s (late '60s?) photography wasn't allowed at all. I believe someone posted a photo of a NYCT(A) publication of the era (a map?) in which the "no photos" policy was stated.
David
That would be begrudgingly acceptable if permits were made readily available. However, the feedback myself and many others here have received is that railfans will simply be told that permits are not being issued at this time - try again later... and later never comes!
Do we really know that? Right now, it indeed appears that anyone who asks for a permit gets a runaround, but then again permits aren't actually required. If the new rule goes into effect, the MTA may be more reasonable about granting permits, for example doing as the MBTA does. We just don't know for sure now.
When I was at 370 Jay last week to pick up a new map, I asked if permits were available yet, but the person behind the counter wasn't even aware of the proposed ban.
MBTA isn't as reasonable anymore.
I'd use Colorado Railcar low floor entry with 3 car sets, and the heavily used lines, use colorado railcar low floor entry double deckers. Platforms would be low........stations....eh, they'd probably be small, but comfy. Snack bar or vending machines, ticket office, benches, bathrooms, etc.
If it were a transit type operation, I'd use either AdTranz M4's similar to that on Philly's MFL (but with plastic seats), or
For a short branch line (sub 20 miles) that was FRA exempt, I'd use lowfloor DMUs. For a sub 1 hour trip time, 4 on the system at any time and 1 in reserve. 1/2 hourly service. For a sub 1/2 hour trip time, 3 units - 2 running, 1 spare.
For the above under FRA rules? Bus.
For a moderate riership like the PW branch - 12 or 25kv 4 car EMUs with max 3.0mph/s acceleration and braking, level boarding (high if FRA, low otherwise), and a 0-60 time of sub 1 minute, 0 - 80 time of 1 minute or less, top speed 80mph. For curves and no FRA, tilting. For curves and FRA, longer trip times. Concrete ties all around,. Somewhere between 2 and 4 trains an hour, more durring rush.
For something like the Babylon line, same as above, 10 min headways off peak day, 30 night.
For intercity on the NEC? 6 car EMUs with a top speed of 125mph (thus tier I) and high acceleration (25mphs, like an Arrow III). 1 - 2 min dwells, max. No tilt. 3 trains an hour each way. If no FRA, add tilt.
For sub 400 mile high speed point to point / few stops, if new non FRA construction, either Talgo or TGV, on 25kv, 2 trains an hour, 200mph operation. If FRA - airport.
For greater than 400 miles and lots of stops? Greyhound. Regardless. It's just not viable to move that few passengers by train.
What parts of Europe have you been to? 10-foot loading gauge is quite common over there.
No. 10 foot loading gauge in Europe is quite common if you restrict the length of the vehicle to 12 meters. If you use the 20 meter vehicles, its more like 9 ft. And the U.S. standard gauge is 10.5 ft not 10 ft.
Most Park Royal-built carriages were 10 feet 6 inches wide and 65 feet long.
The "Finnish Pendolino" S220-class is also 10' 6" in width using 20-meter-long cars.
I prefer a middle seat to standing for 45 minutes any day.
Assume a jam-packed train with ten cars, each of which has 20 rows of seating with middle seats. Eliminate the middle seats, you have 200 uncomfortable people. Restore the middle seats, you have 600 uncomfortable people.
Well, yeah, but that's hardly an issue that a railroad could address.
Da Hui
If rapid transit, I would have some sort of mix between Cleveland and CTA (disclamer: unfortunately I have not ridden the NYC subway yet, so this is subject to change). It is really cool to change from 3rd rail to catenary at speed (in CTA's case 55 mph), so I would have to throw that in somewhere. GCRTA's heavy rail line runs on overhead, so having a mix would fit well.
Regardless, the MP36s are awesome and I would have to have at least one commuter line with them pulling (or pushing) bi-levels.
Matt
-A heavy rail transit system using NJT Comet/Arrow MU's.
One that definately WOULD NOT work, but would be really awesome:
-A heavy rail system (all elevated/ground level/open cut--no underground) using NJT diesel locomotives and transit cars (any type). THAT would be cool!
C: fulton/8th ave to concourse
F: Culver Xpress/smith st express/6 ave local/63st/qb xpress ends@queensbridge late nights
D: Brighton xpress/6ave xpress concourse xpress-local
G: Crosstown local to 71 ave all times and to 179 latenights
E: WTC 8ave local qb express to jamacia ctr
M: Brighton express/nassau-bway express
Q: brighton local/bway express via 63rd st /179st express
brighton express /bway express and 2nd ave express
W* bay barkway/4 ave local/ bway express via 63 rd st to 125/lex
Or coney island (split platform termination) "sea beach local rush" 4 AVE EXPRESS to chambers street
N Coney island-seabeach express "one way rush"/4 ave express/bway express astoria local (solo astoria service)
The HECK with that! Turn it back to the 60's .. Before this Christie nonsense!
(Q) Brighton Express
(T) West End Express
(N) Sea Beach Express
(RR) Fourth Avenue Local
(TT) West En/Nassau Loop
(D) Culver Line
(F) 34th Street !!!
: ) Elias
D/M/Q via Brighton, now thats something great, W/B via west end! awesome!!
D to Brighton Beach!!
D to Coney Island via West End forever!!
B:10 Slants/10 160's/ 8 68a's"must be clean"
C: 8 R143's/ 8 R32's/
D: 8 R68's/ 10 160's
W: 8 R143's/ 8 r32's
Q: 10 R160's/ 10 R32's / 8 68a's
M: 8 r143's /8 r42's/8 slants
N: 10 R40M's/ 8 r46'/ 10 R160's
And what about the graffiti and breakdowns?
AeroDMU-single level low floor-single level low floor-low floor bilevel-bilevel DMU
Aero DMU-single level low floor-signle level low floor-bombardier bilevel-bombardier bilevel(isn't this what they ran for the tri-rail show, or was it only one single level low floor?)
#3 West End Jeff
R32 GE#'s 3934,3935
R16#6305
R11#8013
R30#'s 8289,8290
R10#3184
R16#6339
R42#'s 4910,4911
til next time
til next time
Regards,
Jimmy
Metro North:
M2
M6
M6
M6
NYCT:
R10
R16
R27
R30
R32
R32GE
R38
R40S
R40S
-Chris
I don't know if the 2nd Avenue local or express ran via Astoria/Flushing, but I do know each branch had all three services (42nd, 2nd, BMT).
As for the expansion of WP prior/after the worlds fair, that I dont know.
There was not express service before the World's Fair.
This is why I always got to look at my old maps. ~_~
I have a booklet called "Subway to the World's Fair" by Frederick Kramer. While it concentrates on the IND World's Fair line, it has a lot of information about the rebuilding of the Willets Point station. Prior to 1939, it looked remarkably like any other Flushing local station, with only about a third of the platform covered by a canopy.
Which World's Fair? '39 or '64 ???
: )- Elias
For the full report see ic Birmingham.
It sounds like both proposals, the tram exension and the underground plan have merit. It's a shame two transit projects have ot compete with each other for funding and the attention of politicians. We have a similar situation here in Philadelphia where teh Roosevelt Subway plans and commuter rail to Reading have to compete with each other for money and attention.
Mark
-Robert King
Mark
Mark
The trouble with being a xenophobic provincial island is that it is very easy to slap oneself on the back and say how wonderful everything is and how much better than the rest of the world the British way is. It would be nice if it were possible to take the politicians and force them to make some trips by public transport in various cities around the world and this country. Eventually they would be forced to admit just how rubbish this country is.
Max is engaging in the favourite British sport of running ourselves down. Birmingham is never going to be the magic place that Paris is, whatever transport system it has. But New Yorkers more than anyone should know how difficult, and expensive, it is to build new heavy-rail underground systems nowadays. The money is not available to build one for Birmingham; other systems have to be looked at. And French cities including Grenoble, Clermond Ferrand and Rennes are putting in light rail systems - and so is Paris, in the suburbs.
For me, the best kind of rail rapid transit system is one that gets built. The worst kind is one that doesn't.
Cologne is a good case in point. They have an extensive system of underground trams which seem to run reliably and frequently, and are well-used by locals. The built-up area is appriximately 1,000,000 people. No British city can compare with this provision (although one day Manchester might manage it, and Newcastle has aspirations in the right direction). An underground extension southwards from the City Centre is currently under construction. The heavy-light rail distinction is irrelevant here. As long as the vehicle is fast, durable, and comfortable it will serve its purpose, and an underground railway will not differ too much in construction costs whatever is adopted.
"The 800-pound gorilla is the regional growth,' said Planning Manager John Poindexter. "You can swat the mosquitoes around the gorilla by reducing local growth.'
The study concludes that the overwhelming majority of intersections in Pasadena will remain relatively uncongested through 2015. A few intersections, mostly along major thoroughfares, are expected to go from bad to worse.
The environmental review suggests that traffic problems would be substantially eased by the completion of the Gold Line to Claremont and the completion of the 710 Freeway between Pasadena and Alhambra.
The latter analysis drew fire from David Romney, president of the West Pasadena Residents Association, at Thursday night's Transportation Advisory Commission meeting.
NYMBY !!
"I see no reason to make this a political football,' Romney said, referring to the 710 completion project, which a great many West Pasadenans oppose. "The 710, for the foreseeable future, is not an assumption.'
NYMBYS !! ...................NYMBYS !!
Before adopting a new planning framework for the city's downtown, called the Central District Specific Plan, the city was required by state law to draft an environmental impact report. The EIR also covers changes to citywide planning rules for traffic and land use.
The City Council hopes to adopt those new plans Aug. 23, following review by a series of commissions and a mandated 45-day comment period from the public.
"This thing is moving very quickly,' said Denver Miller, a senior planner, at Thursday night's meeting.
Some on the Transportation Advisory Commission and some members of the public said the schedule was unreasonably hurried.
"It takes six weeks to read it,' Romney said, of the 500-page report. "It takes another six weeks to come up with a comment on it . .. In my view, it is an overly ambitious schedule.'
The environmental document was released about 2 p.m. Thursday, and most had not had time to review it before Thursday night's meeting.
Council watcher Robert Wittry said he had scanned it, and found it to be "the typical EIR.'
"It doesn't address the issues... Almost everything is 'no significant impact,' except for parks, and it's all false,' he said. "The land use has to be tailored to match what the streets can handle.'
The transportation commission is scheduled to take another look at the document June 30. The Design Commission will review it June 14, and the Planning Commission will address it June 23.
The city is planning a two-day public workshop on the new plan July 9 and 10.
Interested residents can contact Planner Laura Dahl at 744-6767 for more details
tell her the paific electric and LARy shoul have been left alone !
2 Dyre-180
3 148-New Lots
4 Woodlawn-149/GC
5 241-Flatbush
I would like to know, if someone knows, how many people transfer between
the 4 and the 2 (both directions).
In this plan there would be no night service between 135/Lenox and
149/GC, so the WPC, Dyre and Woodlawn passengers have to use the Lex.
This can be a big disadvantage for the passengers, if there is a high
transfer count.
Weekday:
2 Dyre-Flatbush
3 148-New Lots
4 Woodlawn-Utica
5 241-Bowling Green-(rush hour)-Flatbush
PS: I apologize if "count" is the right word, cos i don't know an other
one.
He think i'm nuts, cos nobody before came up with this idea?!
True, there are a few other disconnects at night. Queens Boulevard is cut off from the Broadway line, for example -- but there, it's generally a fairly short walk from the IND, and transfer opportunities abound. Your proposal would force many to make large loops via Midtown for what would otherwise be short trips.
I know this problem. I should better ask for the counts in the late
night 2 between 135/Lenox and 149/GC.
1-No changes
2-3 Ave/GC to Flatbush Ave, relay on M track at Jackson Avenue AND Dyre Ave to E 180
3-No service
4-No changes
5-241 to Bowling Green, local stops in Manhattan and Bronx
6-PBP to 125th
To be honest, I don't think this is any better than what they are doign now
And you don't have anything going to New Lots.
So run the 2 as a through service to Dyre at all times, the 5 becomes the WPR train. WPR south of E180 has way too much late night service from this (I am guessing) and the Pelham riders get a shuttle again. Do you think it is really worth it?
But then you're giving two direct services from WPR/Jerome to the East Side and none to the West Side.
There's no need for through 5 service at night. Here's what I'd suggest:
1: no changes.
2: no changes.
3: no changes.
4: no changes.
5: no changes, or perhaps extended to 149-GC for direct access to the 4.
6: no changes, or perhaps extended to Bowling Green for better ferry access.
There's a reason the current late night IRT service pattern is in effect: it makes sense!
So to keep things simple:
2 Dyre-New Lots
3 148-(except Late night & early sunday)-Flatbush
4 Woodlawn-Bowling Green-(rush hour & Late Night & early sunday)-Flatbush
5 241-E180-(except Late Night)-Utica
Taken on a Red Line train in the direction of Glenmont
Taken on a Red Line train in the direction of Shady Grove
Recall that Rohr 1028 is WMATA's feeler car, used to check system clearances. This car was involved in the Federal Triangle derailment, where its mate was destroyed. You can almost make out the roll-signs in these pictures.
These photos will be included in the next update to The Schumin Web Transit Center, but I thought that these were interesting enough to show you now, since it's not your typical Rohr car.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Looks like they are readying the car to make clearance check on the G Route Blue line extension.
John
John
P. S.
When I went to the rodeo in May the feeler car was not in Greenbelt Yard (E99)
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Yes, but for whom? Two people? Three people?
Please stop beating the horse. It died in the 1950s.
David
#3 West End Jeff
Put it this way: I used to have a fit when a cold weather plan was in effect and the Broadway express tracks were used to layup trains. It meant all Broadway trains had to make local stops, including the N.
R-32.
R-32.
That's practically true, but technically not. The resulting speed is very slanted ( no pun intended!! ), given the rather steep gradient diving head-long into the trench under the East River. Of course they reach 60 then, but so do the 62's in the Joralemon St. tube. Rather, ride them on level ground, like the Brighton, like I said in an earlier post concerning the 68's (those WILL reach 60). That said, I do agree, generally, that those are fast cars. They always have been. The "40's" family ( r-40/40M/42's ) are all pretty quick, and speed limiting seems to have missed them. The r-40's on the Q today probably reach 60 between Newkirk and Kings Highway on the embankment.
Uh, no. First off, they're on the B, not the Q (well, maybe once in a LONG while on the Q). Second, get a look at a speedometer some time. 44 is about the best a train will do over there, and that's after a long struggle, as the train's about to enter the Kings Highway station. The train won't be doing better than 26-28 as the first car reaches the top of the hill at Avenue H.
David
Thirdly, I currently do not reside in New York. I cannot keep up, or even be concerned with every incidental car assingment. Dude, that's been going on since the beginning of time - on both divisions. Also, based on what you said, (for the sake of the Brighton) things for the r-40's [basically] haven't changed - except for the sign.
R-32.
I've always seen the R32s do better.
LONG LIVE THE METRIC SYSTEM!
Those r-68 'hippos' are not to be taken lightly; They may teeter-totter down the track, but they have alot of speed potential under that floor. Being 75-footers, they could boogie along, and you not even feel it, because of their inherent stability.
R-32.
Better stopping times probabaly require new equipment designs which arent planned for purchase and CBTC won't be on every line until maybe every one of today's cars is retired so its better to focus on what can move things faster now.
How are operators trained? There are at least two schools. One school comes into a station at speed until some point which depends on the station, curvature, and grade and applies brakes firmly gradually loosening up while avoiding a hard stop. The other school applies the brakes in spasms when entering a station or even before it or applies gentle braking throughout but with a hiccup at the end. These two operating styles can add to or subtract from running time and comfort. When one operator from the second school is leading an operator from the first bunching happens especially on the local portion of a run.
Terminal design should encourage speed and improve capacity. The next effort on the SAS should try do this because the last few haven't like Flushing and Jamaica Center. The new South Ferry will probably be added. Speed doesn't do a lot of good with conga lines into terminals. The 7 express is probably today's fastest express run but only until terminal delays hit going into Main St. The MTA thats less determined to getting everyone off at the last stop could short-turn trains at useful spots and improve service at others like the 1, V, R, G.
Theres more than one way to a speedier commute.
London had to have Moorgate and Kings Cross in order toappreciate these refinements.
Instead of the signal/timer regualations, would radar speed enforcement (used by state police troopers on highways) work well in the subways?
Don't you think you're going a bit far? I'd like a fast system too, but I'd also like to get home ALIVE should a T/O make a mistake.
One key thing to note is how Govenor Pataki chooses the majority of the people who sit at the MTA Board. Oh yes, we can't also forget the bickering involving the SAS and the South Ferry reconstruction with our very own Sheldon Silver.
Jim Fish
Albuquerque, NM
R-32.
1995...A "J" train smashes into the rear of a stopped "M" train on the Williamsburgh Bridge. The motorman on the "J" train - Layton Gibson - is killed in the crash, and 54 other people are hurt. A report rules out mechanical failure, but indicates Layton failed to see the train in front of him.
I thought they said the motorman was drunk, ran the read, and hit a stopped train head on(meaning the stopped train was traveling in the opposite direction).
Robert Ray in the Union Square Wreck had been intoxicated. There was never any indication that Layton Gibson in the Williamsburg Bridge Wreck was drunk; there surely would have been alcohol testing at the autopsy and in any event it happened quite early in the morning. He had been working long hours and most likely fell asleep. Actually, lack of sleep may have compounded the effects of alcohol on Robert Ray.
God bless his soul.
-Chris
That 12th pic, is that an eastbound Port Washington train where the PW line branches from the main.
Sure looks like it.
-Chris
Flatbush-Hempstead trains are almost always M7, PW line has lots of em, and I think the Long Beach line does too.
They try to keep them off the ronkonkoma cuz they have fewer seats.
HAHAHA!!! I wish!!
I actually rarely see M-7s on the Port Washington Branch, but they do run a number of sets there. I believe the train that leaves Flushing Main Street for Penn Station at 6:58 PM weekday nights is an M-7.
http://www.spiveyscreations.com
Ryan
We have detected a hotlinking error. Hotlinking is when you link to images or NON html files on 0catch.com from another host. Hotlinking is not allowed for our FREE Accounts. Hotlinking is allowed for our paid accounts. Your account can be upgraded in the user section when you have logged in.
That bastid.
HOW DID HE GET FOR FREE WHAT WE PAY $50 PROCESSING 4.
My set is in the 1948 factory new paint scheme. The details are excellent; However, MTH modeled the cars as they were retrofitted in the early 1960's with upper sealed beam headlights and the front radio antenna/ bracket --- that is correct for the early 1980 era all-white paint scheme models; ALSO in error is the QUEENS PLAZA instead of TIMES SQUARE western route designation...had MTH consulted me before production, as they usually do, this sinage error would not have happened. As it was, I and Frank Gatazka got MTH to get the roof paint color corrected at the last minute ! Here are some photos:
Three generation of IRT Flushing & Astoria line line cars; at left, 1915-20 era Low-V standard body Steinways; center are 1938 built "1939 Worlds Fair Class" Low-V Steinways: at right are the new for 1948 NYCTA IRT R-12 cars---all seen on my O Scale NYC scale El layout
Above and below are overhead views of the (LEFT) 1938 and (RIGHT) 1948 class cars on m "EL" Layout.
Hope you modelers enjoy the photos
Regards - Joe
Joseph Frank, Webmaster
NY City Transit Modelers Group
Regards,
Jimmy
I was wondering if you would know if MTH has any future plans to release any model trains R36 and after - 40s,44-46s,62s,68s,142, 143..
The R62 at the NYCMTA site is HOT!!!
thanks!
your stuff looks awesome!
e-mail: Kswift51@yahoo.com
61 st- woodsie, changer here for "ind" E/ F / GG trains"
74 st-jackson hts " change here for Long island railroad"
wrong again!
the cars are so nice though
the white r-12' # 1 trains are due out next wednesday,,,
D to Brighton Beach!!
LET'S HOPE they get the destinations right and not put 'Marble Hill' as a Terminal.
Well, when the next eastbound arrived on the correct track I wondered what was up. I talked with a supervisor sitting up front as he joked with the opreator and I discovered that after a Camden Crime game when they shoot off about 30$ worth of fireworks PATSO suspends operations on the south track on the BFB. Yup, those cheese fireworks that go about 50 feet in the air, 1/4 mile from the bridge have scared PATCO shitless. The eastbound before mine had to reverse in the 8th and Market pocket track, wait for a westbound, pull back into the station and then reverse again over the bridge. They even had to send out a supervisor to supervise.
My train had to operate restricted speed from the crest of the bridge to the portal and then report back track conditions. The supervisor guy wanted the operator to report that "The bridge was engulfed in flames, but I'm going through!!" the Operator just said that the bridge was in "stellar" condition.
What makes this more lame is that on the 1st and the 4th when the city shoots off millions of dollars of fireworks, PATCH parks 2 8 car trains with employees and their families on the bridge to watch the fireworks up close and personal.
Nice - no more service at Kingston & Nostrand
This of course is even worse than the current arrangement at Rogers Junction, as now 100% of 2, 3, and 4 trains will all share the same stretch of track across the junction in both directions. At least now all that conflicts is the 2, 3, and half the 5. That's an additional 8 TPH(correct me if I'm wrong?).
Also service to 145 St and 148 St-Lenox Terminal would be discontinued.
...Just another reason I don't bother attending this event.
wayne
wayne
CG
CG
The arrival is the time the train from Belmont gets to Jamaica, the departure is the time the train westbound leaves from Jamaica. Not that hard to figure out.
actually, I saw a couple of trains go to Penn and woodside from belmont. they used track 1.
Trains departing Jamaica that don't go to NYP, they probably go to anywhere else on the system except east of Rononkoma.
The train leaves Belmont at 4:13 and arrives in Jamaica (it's last stop) at 4:25. The schedule then says that it leaves Jamaica at 4:27 -- Broadway Junction is asking "Going where?" -- since it the schedule doesn't show it going anyplace else.
I think the 4:27 departure time is actually for the connecting train to Penn, but you wouldn't know that without actually checking the schedules.
I'm pretty sure that the answer to the question "where does the actual train go?" is -- Back to Belmont Park. That is, the 4:13 Belmont to Jamaica turns around at Jamaica and deadheads back to Belmont in order to become the 6:09 (or earlier/later depending on when the last race ends) Belmont to Penn.
Similarly, Belmont bound the 11:49 Penn to Belmont gets to Belmont at 12:23, then deadheads back to Jamaica in time to become the 1:24 Jamaica to Belmont.
CG
That's the departure time of the connecting train.
The train that ends in Jamaica, who knows where it goes. The yard, Belmont, new route, etc
"The people's flag is deepest red,
It shrouded oft our martyred dead;
And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold
Their life-blood dyed its every fold.
Then raise the scarlet standard high;
Beneath its folds we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.
Look 'round, the Frenchman loves its blaze,
The sturdy German chants its praise;
In Moscow's vaults its hymns are sung,
Chicago swells its surging song.
Then raise the scarlet standard high;
Beneath its folds we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.
It waved above our infant might
When all ahead seemed dark as night;
It witnessed many a deed and vow,
We will not change its color now.
Then raise the scarlet standard high;
Beneath its folds we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.
It suits today the meek and base,
Whose minds are fixed on pelf and place;
To cringe beneath the rich man's frown,
And haul that sacred emblem down.
Then raise the scarlet standard high;
Beneath its folds we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.
With heads uncovered, swear we all,
To bear it onward till we fall;
Come dungeons dark, or gallows grim,
This song shall be our parting hymn!
Then raise the scarlet standard high;
Beneath its folds we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here."
Long live British Rail! Long live British Rail! Long live British Rail!
Brings back memories of college in the 1970s with graduate students from the Socialist Workers’ Party (which was a laugh–I never saw any of them working!) mothing expressions like “Dictatorship of the Proletariat”…
I welcome the return of a (de facto) British Rail, but there are other aspects of the past that I’m very happy to leave behind thank you!
If you were commenting on Labour disasters like the Greenbelt, Comprehensive Education, or Trade Union Legislation, I would agree, but when it comes to Transport and the NHS, they got it right.
Brings back memories of college in the 1970s with graduate students from the Socialist Workers’ Party (which was a laugh–I never saw any of them working!) mothing expressions like “Dictatorship of the Proletariat”…
Aka why any party with principles of social justice looks ridiculous. I don't know who are worse: the People's Party of Judaea or the Judaean People's Party.
I welcome the return of a (de facto) British Rail, but there are other aspects of the past that I’m very happy to leave behind thank you!
Let's now make it more than just de facto! Sack Branson!
That was the major problem. However, the idea of the BTC was a good idea although it was never exploited to its full possibilities.
Read all about it in the Independent.
Network Rail is set to emerge this week as the winner in the most fundamental shake-up of the rail industry since privatisation. Alistair Darling, the secretary of state for transport, will announce that he intends to abolish the Strategic Rail Authority (SRA), with its powers and functions either returning to the Department for Transport (DfT) or being handed to Network Rail."
See the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Telegraph.
"Rail system shake-up expected
Thu 15 July, 2004 04:23
LONDON (Reuters) - The government is expected to announce a shake-up of the national rail system today, including plans for tighter government controls of the fragmented industry.
The Times reported the government had abandoned its target for expanding the railways in favour of a focus on reliability and punctuality.
A pledge to increase rail travel by 50 percent by 2010 had been withdrawn after ministers realised they had no hope of achieving the target, the newspaper said.
Transport Secretary Alistair Darling had chosen instead to focus on reliability and punctuality, "something that's more realistic and focused on what passengers really care about...," the Times quoted a Department for Transport spokesman as saying.
In a White Paper to be published on Thursday, Darling was also expected to announce the abolition of the Strategic Rail Authority in favour of a new rail agency.
The Department for Transport was not immediately available for comment on the Times report.
The Strategic Rail Authority was created by the government three years ago to provide leadership for the privatised industry, which has been marred in the past five years by a series of fatal crashes and cost-overruns.
The government has said it wanted to tighten its grip on the way the industry was run and regulated, but has ruled out re-nationalisation.
The railways were privatised in the hope private capital and management would transform it. Instead the government has faced demands for more subsidies.
Darling was also likely to announce that responsibility for rail safety will move from the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) to the Office of Rail Regulation."
By SAUNDRA AMRHEIN, Times Staff Writer
Published May 27, 2004
TAMPA - With two hours and 10 minutes to game time, Connie Cosme took a break from the levers.
A few regulars had already jumped off her streetcar Tuesday at the St. Pete Times Forum. But she expected the worst ahead.
Win or lose, the throngs emerging from the Tampa Bay Lightning game hours later were bound to swarm the 18-month-old streetcar service.
"On Saturday, we had a nice, happy load," she said about the night the Lightning won the Eastern Conference.
"I let two guys come up and toot the whistle," she said, sitting down on one of the honey-brown wooden seats. "They all went nuts. Everyone went crazy."
Hundreds of people have been taking advantage of the streetcars run by HARTline to find cheaper parking in Ybor City and escape the snarl of traffic around the St. Pete Times Forum.
The streetcars offered an extra hour of service after Tuesday's game and will do so again tonight. On Tuesday, ridership jumped to 910, up 300 from an average Tuesday, officials said.
Cosme, sporting a black top hat, black vest and short sleeves, stepped outside to switch the direction of the electric cable above the train, yellow and bright as a sunburst. The seats inside its air-conditioned bubble swiveled to face east instead of west.
First stop, the Marriott. Some people wanted to move away from the action.
"We thought the only people that would be here would be disaster managers," said Bob Swan of Orlando, who was in town to attend the Governor's Hurricane Conference at the Tampa Convention Center on behalf of an engineering firm.
Swan and colleague Teresa Carter of Raleigh, N.C., hitched a ride on the streetcar to catch dinner in Ybor City and return to the Marriott before the game let out.
Cosme turned the car around in Ybor City and picked up more Lightning fans.
"I didn't want to have to deal with the parking," said Donna Ippolito, who lives at Camden Apartments in Ybor City. "The last time I valet parked, they wrecked my car."
Cosme dropped them off and picked up some rowdy hurricane conference attendees heading back toward Ybor, one of whom insisted repeatedly on blowing the train's whistle.
Cosme and her colleagues have seen it all: bachelorette parties, Gasparilla partiers, drunks lying across the tracks. The streetcars have even been chartered by wedding parties.
The mood after a hockey game can vary. Several hours later, Cosme started taking trickles of fans away from the St. Pete Times Forum back to their cars. It was only the third period, but Tampa Bay was already losing badly.
"Be advised, the game is letting out now," the streetcar dispatch radio squawked.
As Cosme rounded the bend at the Florida Aquarium, the crowds appeared.
"They are not going to be happy," Cosme said. Cars pulled on the tracks and sat still. Cosme honked the whistle until they moved.
Near the Times Forum, Cosme stopped as her whole car filled up with subdued fans. Many were happy to attend a Stanley Cup game, though disappointed at the outcome. Still, they liked the streetcar.
"It's really relaxing, and you don't have to fight the mess that you get out there," said Scott Maxwell of Plant City, riding with his three friends.
Mike and Michelle Concannon of Dover sat quietly up front. While not giving up hope on the Lightning, they were happy to put the night behind them.
And Cosme was happy to oblige.
The streetcar, like the hockey games, would keep on rolling.
(Established in 1985 under Connecticut Public Act 85-239, now Sections 13b-212b and -212c
of the Connecticut General Statutes)
MINUTES OF APRIL 28, 2004 MEETING
AT GOVERNMENT CENTER
STAMFORD, CONNECTICUT
The meeting began at 6:00 p.m.
Present were: Chairman Rodney Chabot, Vice Chairman Jim Cameron, Ed Zimmerman, Bob Jelley, and Jeff Marin, Members of the Council; Peter Cannito, President of Metro North Railroad; Gene Colonese, Sherry Herrington, Joe Kanell and George Okvat, Metro North Railroad; Harry Harris, Mike Donnarumma, and James Fox, DOT; Sean McLaughlin, MTA Police; Dick Carpenter, former head of SWERPA, Dick Bond and Scott Crosby, members of the public.
In addition to those listed above, there were people who arrived in the course of the meeting who were planning to attend the public hearing on a fare increase, which immediately followed the Rail Commuter Council meeting at 7:00 p.m.
Because of time constraints, the April meeting of the Rail Commuter Council consisted only of the talk by Peter Cannito, President of Metro North Railroad, and the question and answer period that followed. All regular business was postponed until the May meeting.
President Cannito began by saying that Metro North had continued to provide good service during 2003, but that it had been a difficult year. He said that the region’s economy had not bounced back, so that there was no ridership increase to provide additional revenue. Ridership in 2003 was down 0.8% from the record level of ridership in 2002. However, that was a better record than the region’s other commuter railroads, SEPTA, Long Island Railroad and New Jersey Transit, all of which had a 3% ridership decline in 2003. Metro North’s ridership was helped by an increase in reverse commuting during 2003.
President Cannito stated that both the fall leaf season in 2003 and the 2003-4 winter season had been particularly bad, in terms of weather conditions, but that the railroad had nevertheless maintained a 96.7% on-time record for the entire system. He reminded people that winter snowstorms had begun in December, 2003 and said that the 2003-4 winter had been the worst winter on record for this region because it was both colder and snowier than most winters. He said that the combination of 30-year old cars and the type of winter had produced the problems on the New Haven line that everyone remembers. He went on to say that the entire region had been affected by the weather and that Metro North had outperformed the other three commuter railroads.
President Cannito went on to talk about the equipment problems in Connecticut. He said that there were not enough cars on the New Haven line, even if they were all in service, and that they were 30 years old. He reported that the M-2 rebuild program now has “finished” 46 cars, 20% of the M-2 fleet. He said this was making a difference. The two long-lead items, new cab signal systems and new toilets, will arrive in August, and the “finished” cars will be recycled to have that work done. He went on to say that the decision to do the rebuild program in-house had turned out to be a correct decision, both getting the work started sooner and leading to an earlier completion.
He said that he was working with Connecticut DOT to get 38 additional cars for the New Haven line. The addition of new cars on the West-of-Hudson lines will free up some old cars for the East-of-Hudson lines, including the New Haven line, but having additional cars will require additional dual-mode locomotives, which are only manufactured by General Electric. (Later questioning seemed to indicate that the 38 additional cars being talked about are non-self- propelled cars, which require a locomotive.)
President Cannito said that there was a critical need for a long-term fleet replacement program for both New York and Connecticut. He said that the MTA’s capital program for New York for 2005-2009 will include a request for funds for a substantial number of new cars. The first priority will be adding cars to the present inventory of cars and the second priority will be replacement of the M-2s. He said that Connecticut will have to do the same thing.
President Cannito said that the other crucial need was the expansion of Connecticut shop space for maintenance. He said that the takeover of the Shore Line East facility in New Haven was a step in the right direction, and he hoped that Metro North would be operating that facility by the end of the summer.
President Cannito concluded by saying that even though Metro North had made major improvements in service since taking over the New Haven line in 1983, there were fewer older commuters who rode the line both in 1983 and 2004, so that most commuters don’t have the perspective to see the improvements that have been made. He said that was probably a good thing, because it keeps Metro North Railroad on its toes. He said that the relationship with CDOT is excellent.
Rodney Chabot, Chairman of the Rail Council, asked what the prospect was for expecting all full-length trains. President Cannito said that on the day of the meeting, there were 65 cars out of service. He went on to say that even if Metro North gets down to only 15% of cars out of service, there were still not enough cars to meet demand.
Jim Cameron, Vice Chairman, said that he thought Metro North had done an excellent job during the past winter, given the problems. He asked if there was any reason to be hopeful about better service during the next two winters. President Cannito answered that if the next two winters were the same as the last two, there were likely to be the same kind of problems. He said that the railroad was looking at the systems most susceptible to winter problems to see if there was some way to insulate them from failure. He went on to say that during this past winter, the railroad had canceled trains rather than running trains that were likely to break down.
Bob Jelley, Secretary of the Council, asked about the progress of Long Island Railroad access to Grand Central Terminal, and particularly the problem of Lexington Avenue subway crowding with more railroad passengers. President Cannito said that the Second Avenue subway project, which is going ahead, will eventually relieve the Lexington Avenue line. He also said that a lot of the people who will use the Long Island Railroad to enter Grand Central Terminal are people who will work in that immediate area, so they won’t need to take the subway.
Jeff Marin spoke about the Metro North e-mail program to report service delays and wondered whether the system couldn’t be more specific. President Cannito said that service changes, because of weather or accidents, happen quickly and change quickly, and it is difficult to be more specific than the notifications presently are. But he said that efforts will be made to refine the system. He went on to say that if problems arise during the night, it is easier to notify people by e-mail about morning commuting problems, although, because people are in a hurry in the morning, they frequently don’t take the time to check their e-mail. Problems that arise during the day are more difficult, because the railroad is committed to getting people out of New York and back home, and changes are made more quickly.
Harry Harris made two points:
1. In May, a private firm, Transcon, will be launching a website service (www.trips123.com) which will be like AAA trip planning, except it is for public transit. There will also be a pay service feature which will notify people of certain problems.
2. There is a new bill in the legislature requiring study of e-mail notification of highway and transit problems.
Peter Cannito said that the information on trips 1, 2, 3 will only be as good as the railroad can produce and the customer should do what they can to find out about the situation.
Ed Zimmerman asked if the New York money for new cars was already in place. President Cannito said that it was not. He implied that there was a reasonable expectation that New York would come up with the necessary money. He said that new car procurement usually required a 3-year procurement process. He described two options: 1) a brand new car design; and
2) modification of the M-7 program, which can operate only on third rail, by putting on a pantograph.
Dick Bond, former first selectman of New Canaan asked how many new cars were expected quickly. Harry Harris said that the General Assembly wanted 2000 additional seats. Peter Cannito said that he will try to get 38 cars, even though that provides more than 2000 seats, but that more locomotives will be required. He went on to say that non-self-propelled cars are easy to maintain.
Dick Carpenter asked whether New York will certainly come up with the money for new self-propelled cars. Peter Cannito said that this will be a high priority item for the MTA, and that the MTA has had success with its five year plans in the past. Dick Carpenter went on to ask whether new cars for the New Haven line will also be able to enter Penn Station. Peter Cannito said that they will, and they will be able to operate on 60-cycle, 12,000 volt power; 25-cycle, 12,500 volt power; and 60-cycle, 25,000 volt power.
The meeting ended at 7:00 p.m.
The next meeting will be on May 19th at 7:30 p.m. at SACIA in Stamford (not New Haven, as originally scheduled.) The June meeting will also be at SACIA in Stamford.
Bob Jelley
Secretary
Well, the website is still just an advertisement for its own launch -- no actual information. Seems like an ambitious but valuable service if they can pull it off.
CG
MINUTES OF MAY 19, 2004 MEETING
AT SACIA OFFICES, ONE LANDMARK SQUARE
STAMFORD, CONNECTICUT
The meeting began at 7:30 p.m.
Present were: Chairman Rodney Chabot, Ed Zimmerman, Bob Jelley, Carl Leaman, Peter Marcuse and Joe McGee, Members of the Council; Gene Colonese, Fred Chidester and Jeff Watson, Metro North Railroad; Ray Cox and Mike Donnarumma, Connecticut DOT; Dick Bond, Scott Crosby, and Larry Uydess, members of the public.
The Minutes for the March 24, 2004 and April 28, 2004 were approved.
PROPOSED FARE INCREASE
Ray Cox reported that it was more likely that there would be a fare increase beginning January 1, 2005, rather than July 1, 2004, as originally proposed. He said that in order to accomplish this postponement, the Legislature would have to come up with additional operating and maintenance funds.
STAMFORD STATION
Ray Cox reported that there was nothing new to report. In answer to a question about the former surface parking lot at the entrance to the parking garage, he said that he thought that the surface lot was no longer available to the State. [He subsequently confirmed that that was so.]
SECURITY OF RAILROAD YARDS
There had been a newspaper report that TV reporters had found it easy to enter and wander around in the New Haven railroad yard. Ray Cox, in response to a question, said that DOT needs to find $5 million to have a security check done of the entire New Haven line. He went on to say that it was impossible to consider fencing the entire railroad.
Mike Donnarumma reported that there had been a simulated emergency and actual evacuation of Bridgeport Station the morning of the meeting, and that it went very well. Stamford Station is next on the list.
WATERBURY BRANCH
Rodney Chabot reported that he believed the Legislature had provided funds for returning to midday train service on the Waterbury branch. Ray Cox said that he did not know that that was so. Gene Colonese said that midday train service could be restored quickly. There was further discussion of the need to reprint timetables if train service is restored.
DANBURY BRANCH
Ray Cox reported that the new date for requesting bids for a signal system on the Danbury branch is November 19, 2004.
MAINTENANCE BACKLOG
It was reported that the New Haven line was short 15 cars the morning of the meeting. There is an average of 62 cars in the shop. It is now expected that Metro North will be able to start using the Amtrak repair facility in New Haven at the beginning of August.
TAXI DISPATCHER IN STAMFORD
Ray Cox reported that it had been decided not to use the dispatcher system on weekends. As a result there is no $2.00 surcharge on weekends. He reported that the dispatcher system costs $36,000.00 per week to operate vs. income of $22,000.00 per week.
FLEET REPLACEMENT
Ray Cox reported that a decision about a long-term fleet replacement schedule and preparation of specifications for new cars will probably not be made until January, 2005. These new cars will probably not start arriving until 2012. He also stated that it had not been decided whether to use the existing M-7 platform for new cars or whether to design a new M-8.
Ray Cox went on to say that DOT had managed to negotiate a very favorable purchase of 38 used electric cars from the State of Virginia. (10 of the 38 cars have cabs for a train operator.) The plan is that these cars will be used for Shore Line East, freeing up the present Shore Line East cars for use on the main line. The ability to buy 38 relatively new cars for such a good price leaves the DOT with $40 million that can be used to purchase 10 locomotives for the main and branch lines.
NEW CANAAN BRANCH
It was reported that land had been purchase for an addition to the parking lot of the Talmadge Hill Station. The Rail Council passed a resolution approving this new parking, providing 60-70 more spaces, to be paid for by the Town of New Canaan.
Rodney Chabot reported that he was planning a “Meet the Commuters Day” in June. The Council decided that the next meeting would be held in New Haven on Wednesday, June 16 at 7:00 p.m.
The meeting was adjourned at 9:00 p.m.
Bob Jelley
Secretary
Come again? State of VA?? Huh?
-Chris
As for the long stretch of local stops, it fits into the IND model of widely spaced express stops outside the CBD (and closely spaced express stops within). We could argue for weeks about whether the IND model makes sense (and I tend to agree with you), but for better or for worse, it was a deliberate design decision. Also, how would an express station be designed on CPW? Add a mezzanine level, so the southbound tracks would be three flights below ground? Or shift the northbound local track west, below private property, so the staircases from the sidewalk would lead directly to the upper level island platform?
Along CPW the stations at 59 St, 72 St, 81 St-Museum, 86 St, 96 St, 103 St, and 110 St. 59 and 110 Sts mark the park boundaries and 59 St is obviously at an important location. I assume that was the case even in the early days of the IND. Every transversal in the park gets a station where it emerges on the park's west side except 66 St. 72 St "crosstown" would be a very winding path but a station is there. And except for 66 St every Broadway station has a mirror CPW station. The former 9 Av El stops were 59, 66, 72, 81, 86, 93, 99, 104, and 110 Sts. Every station below 86 St has an exact match on CPW except 66 St and arguably the entire stretch does if 93 and 99 Sts. are compressed to 96 St. 104 St is one block off and who cares. Did the IND have its reasons? Maybe but I don't see them.
Also 59th Street is just as close to Lincoln Center. LC begins at 62nd Street.
I think about that and you do too but when did the IND care about their stations being too close to the IRT. By that logic there shouldn't be a station at 50 St either, which is on 2 levels.
And if the IND did care about stations too close to the IRT then why build the Concourse line? The stations on the Woodlawn and Concourse lines are closer to each other in most places than between Broadway and CPW and not separated by parkland, in a region with less concentration of riders.
The Concourse line was probably planned to supplant the Jerome line.
I agree, but exit to exit the IND might not and the MTA definitely doesn't. The southernmost exit at Columbus Circle is on 57 St almost 56 St. The northernmost exit at 42 St-Bus Terminal is on 44 St. There is an IND station at 7 Av-53 St with an exit on Broadway/53 St serving the same area.
The planned stations for the SAS would leave a patch of similar size on the east side without access to the line there. Stations are planned for 57 St and 42 St. Tha actual distance will be less than that because of exits but its comparable in an area that is very built up.
The Concourse line was probably planned to supplant the Jerome line.
Couldn't the same be said of the 8 Av line and the West Side IRT?
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/planning/sas/sas_stations.htm
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/planning/sas/pdf/overview8_18_03.pdf
Even in the SDEIS, the so-called "57th St" station was centered farther south than that, to make possible a transfer to the Lex-53rd station. In the FEIS, they decided to rename it, to reflect where it really is going to be.
Most of the SAS transfers to other lines are shown as "under evaluation." This one would be a longish transfer, and relatively expensive to build. It's a nice-to-have, not a must-have. However, note that there are no plans to send a 63rd St service down 2nd Avenue, which wouldn't be possible without expanding the Queens subway network or diverting service from elsewhere.
There won't be a 66th St SAS station, and it really wouldn't make sense, since there's going to be a Q station at 63rd & Lex with an exit at Third Avenue.
An SAS station in that area is vitally important, considering the very large amount of office space within walking distance.
A transfer would help to divert passengers from the existing transfer between the Lexington line and the 53rd Street line.
I doubt there were any plans for the IND to replace the entire West Side IRT. The city was going after the els. The IND planners surely knew that CPW is at the edge of the neighborhood, close enough to supplant the 9th Avenue el but not close enough to push the subway under Broadway out of business. Also, without the subway running at least as far as 96th Street, how would trains get to Lenox Avenue and White Plains Road?
However, I do strongly suspect that the IND planners were hoping to take over the IRT north of 215th Street. Why else would the line run past 168th Street and terminate under Broadway, just south of the point where the IRT swings back to Broadway?
I think so. There also appears to have been an exit at 55 St but that would have been 4 blocks from the platforms so I'm not sure.
That's debatable (as you guys have been doing...), but one point you haven't mentioned is that Madison Square Garden was at 50th and 8th so the IND would have been foolish not to stop there. (Note that there were exits from 50 St station at 51st and 52nd street indicating that -- once upon a time -- people actually used this station).
There was no compelling reason for a stop at 66/CPW.
CG
If they had put an express stop on CPW to begin with, I'm sure they would have used the conventional design of a mezzanine and two island platforms for that station, and two side platforms (with or without mezzanine) for the local stations. CPW is wide enough to accommodate 4 tracks across, plus platforms.
Bob
But what would be the point? Its north end would be two blocks from the south exit of the next station up. That's closer than 14th Street and 18th Street.
What would be the nearest subway line and station to this yard ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey Dutch, is it safe to assume that the land where the yard was is now developed ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Anyways basically it is strait forward - any questions just ask
http://www.geocities.com/gc3846/Fantasy_Maps/Mega_map_6.txt {also in .GIF - must be capitalized}
heh
maybe take L to kings plaza too
-Broadway Buffer
Also, get rid of the Woodhaven Shuttle (my fantasy map has that too)-- it serves no purpose.
Other than that, nice map.
Makes me think that the map itself would need to be redesigned should we ever be lucky enough to witness such dramatic expansion. It's just hard to read!
-W.E.S.
aspiring cartographer
- #7 Flushing Josh
digital cartographer
And thanks for the compliment folks :-) I think for the moment I've used up most of my most innovative ideas so version 7 will take a while for me to produce. So enjoy this one!
Click
They didn't post a service advisory on the MTA website, so was this an unplanned G/O
·Sounds like an overrestrictive law that doesn't really solve a problem.
·Sounds like yet another law that straphangers will cheerfully ignore.
The SPVs are in ConnDOT livery; and that's a GP40-2H according to the notes below the photo.
Using the 3’ gauge muck train tracks as a reference it looks a little small to be one of the water tunnel. The tunnel looks like it would have a finished inside diameter of around 23’ (7m) after concrete lining is installed. This would likely make it a subway tunnel.
John
It looks like a tunnel under construction.
Despite what I saw above about an oncoming train, It only looks like some tunnel lights.
The way that some people have misidentified pictures, I'd doubt of this is the subway. It might be a picture of a water tunnel.
Regards,
Jimmy
I don’t think it’s older. I have been in tunnels that looked just like that in the 1970s during the construction of WMATA.
John
Thanks in advance.
This GO might be easier on folks than last weeks.
Probably two days before you were there. The Black River and Western, based in Ringoes, hauls freight from Lambertville to Flemington and back (interchanging with NS just north of Flemington) on Wednesday and Sunday, and also operates excursion trains between Flemington and Ringoes on the weekends. They used to run the excursions all the way to Lambertville but I note from their website that they aren't doing that this year, probably because they're running The Delaware Turtle between Phillipsburg and Carpentersville on the old Bel-Del that they also own.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The BR&W runs freights between Flemington and their connection with NS at Three Bridges, which is north of Flemington on the former CNJ track.
The table on their website still indicates service to Lambertville is available, although not regularly scheduled; there's also a reduced weight limit on that portion of the line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bathrooms are an issue. Smelly and non-working elevators are issues. Slow Green Line is an issue. MBTA needs taxpayer funding, now, to address these issues. MBTA needs the community to have cohesive agreement on what to do with the Green Line, not colleges en-route screaming that they want their students to use the Green Line for campus transit and not old ladies screaming that losing their 100-passenger-per-day stop will make them break a leg walking down a hill. Transit can't serve everybody; it serves the majority, and it should serve those who are willing to pay for the services -- through taxes, explicit contracts, and grants. Sam (or whoever that wrote the column) should try running the MBTA for a little while.
AEM7
Bullet train opposition leader faces charges
By Jane Musgrave, Palm Beach Post Staff Writer
Friday, June 4, 2004
A suburban Boca Raton retiree who began a crusade against the state's proposed bullet train to keep it out of his neighborhood now faces a possible $16,000 fine for violating state campaign finance laws.
In documents released Thursday, the Florida Elections Commission said it has found reason to charge David Goodstein with 16 counts of violating state law.
Violations include improperly reimbursing himself $84.94 in telephone charges, $62 for toner and $24.40 for stamps when he served as chairman and treasurer of the political action committee DErail the Bullet Train, or DEBT. Goodstein, who is now only chairman of the PAC, is also accused of improperly accepting two contributions for $873 before the committee was properly formed.
"For a retired schoolteacher who has never been charged with anything, it's really embarrassing," Goodstein said. "It's a humiliating experience."
But, he said, since the investigation began last summer he knew that his life as a political activist could get nasty.
Lakeland millionaire C.C. "Doc" Dockery, who lodged the complaint against Goodstein, has made it clear he dislikes Goodstein's efforts to derail the multibillion-dollar train that was overwhelmingly endorsed by voters. Dockery spent $3 million of his own money to mount a successful petition drive in 2000 to get the issue on the ballot.
On Wednesday, Dockery filed suit in Tallahassee attacking the petition drive Goodstein is coordinating with the recent help of such political heavyweights as Gov. Jeb Bush, state Chief Financial Officer Tom Gallagher and state Sen. Ron Klein, D-Boca Raton.
"I have no personal animus toward him," Goodstein said of Dockery. "But he does play hardball."
While Dockery couldn't be reached for comment, Elections Commission officials said that the charges against Goodstein are serious.
"In the whole scheme of things, any violation of campaign finance laws is important," said Charles Finkel, general counsel for the commission. "Anything that makes the playing field unlevel could affect the outcome of an election so each one is important."
Goodstein said he is taking the charges -- that each carry a possible $1,000 fine -- seriously.
But he described his actions as mistakes based on ignorance of the law rather than an attempt to corrupt the political process.
For instance, the Ethics Commission faults him for accepting a contribution of more than the $100 limit. The $123 he deposited in the PAC's account was money left over from another PAC that was folded when the new committee was formed, he said.
As to improperly reimbursing himself for various expenses, he said he had been doing it for years and didn't realize it was improper.
"If they're right and I'm wrong, then it was a mistake," he said.
jane_musgrave@pbpost.com
He can go ahead and tell everyone what they voted for was wrong a little after 12 years after the first law was written asking for the bullet train, but follow up campaign finance laws. I did office and elections in college, and nothing p-ed me to the offed more than someone not even SKIMMING the rules and then violating them all(including the elections committee)!!
The reason I call him a clown is what I inferred this person to be like from how the article painted him. Try to get a picture of his personality from what's written. Short article, I could be wrong. But he sounds like the usual retiree that stays in teh a/c condo and goes out at 10am to go to Publix and back and has no clue outside that world. He decides to listen to propaganda against the train, he's not part of the target market, as 1.4 billion dollars on I-4 expansion isn't either, and decides he's goig to meddle. Tries to start up some amateur attempts to get involved, doesn't read up on laws, etc. Who does polictical campaigns, reimburses oneself, and thinks that doens't need to be documented?
Anyway, it's a short story, and inferred from experience, doesn't mean I used a brainscan and got a reading on the individual. But then again, I didn't sit by and watch state law mandating a train, a 2000 constitutional admendment pass in all the populated counties, and then FOUR years later decide I'm going to meddle and tell everyone else what they voted for was wrong. That makes you a clown. I voted against half the things that pass, and I live with it.
That would be equal to this same guy in 2004 asking for another Gore/Bush recount(recall) and if Bush won again, give him 4 more years without being re-elected by due process.
My two cents.
These amounts are incredibly small when you think of the BILLIONS at stake with the bullet train. Regardless, Goodstein has put himself in the middle of a billion dollar project that will create thousands of jobs and deserves exactly what he gets. If it were the other way around, I'm sure the Jeb Bushes would do the same.
Apparently not so. You know the difference. Your assumptions and inferrences are very simplistic. Perhaps there are other possibilities?
AEM7
These guys see it necessary to have stops in their "town". I looked up their towns website, very nice. Huge smart-growth town, LRT in one of these would be awesome.
Who wants to move in with me and have us a couple of wives?
Daybreak "city"
CASTLE SHANNON - After an 11-year absence, trolleys were rolling Wednesday on the refurbished Overbrook line to downtown Pittsburgh, a trip that more than one harried rider had compared with a roller coaster ride.
Gone are the rickety, one-lane bridges, timeouts for an oncoming trolley to pass and washed-out, cliffside track beds that brought riders perilously close to wondering if they might be better off commuting by car.
That's all in the past, as the Port Authority of Allegheny County emphasized Tuesday when it put its new line and light-rail vehicles on display for more than 200 guests in the Castle Shannon business district.
.....
Chuck Greene
PS: I had some of 'Mom's Apple Pie' in the diner across the road.
The best sightseeing IMO, is Smith-9 Sts, CI-Stillwell, Times Sq, GCT, Roosevelt Island and the SI ferry (even though its not a subway, it has AWESOME views, imo.
You need to pay more attention to the way you post. You dont even make sense sometimes.
-Chris
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Hey, maybe with the whole remote control technology Amtrak can outsource it's train crews to Mexico and/or India.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06012004.shtml#Amtrakoutsources
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Hopefully this won't lead to the replacment of Amtrak's potpouri of vintage switch units, but instead just lead to greater system availability so avoid needing to use road engines to shift cars. Some evidence of the latter saome from the fact that I saw two switchers in New Haven yard which would normally not rate such a thing.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06012004.shtml#Amtrakgetting
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Looks like another nickle and diming attempt to kill Amtrak service. Any Illinios based Subtalkers might want to get on the horn to their state rep.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06012004.shtml#Illinois
In other words, they are shrinking their rail service. It doesn't surprise me this should happen because the administration is probably putting preasure on some of these states to cut their Amrtrak cost.
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Ha, busted.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06012004.shtml#Towing
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Well, I don't think they'll be much differance from the more typical "crappy track slows Amtrak trains.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06012004.shtml#Track
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And the best part is that the bridge is under the control of a classic NH interlocking tower with a working US&S Model-14 machine.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06012004.shtml#Cape
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Bah, they should just market it as a free sauna "service" and then issue ads as to how the MTBA is improving its riders' health.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06012004.shtml#Where’stheAC
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What I don't get is that 80mph operation is pretty standard (well, everywhere but on the Guilford) so what the heck was going on before the various improvements? Why not actually make the service hi speed with 90mph operation?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06012004.shtml#Caltrain
Still 39minutes shaved is terrific....anyone have any info on this they can point me to??
here is some info on the project. One of the key points, i think, is for these baby bullets to be able to run express...necessitating switch improvements for the crossovers in addition to the track and signaling improvments.
A lot of 4-cylinder cars can do well over 100 mph as well. Was that meant to be sarcastic?
Unless you're one of them losers who put a big muffler and sticker on a honda and then seriously believe you got yourself a race car like NASCAR, I don't consider them, nor 79mph to be "bullet" fast.
I find it interesting how they use the term Bullet. But then again, maybe that's good marketing, as most people will bite the bullet and believe whatever they see.
I'm not sure if I should take it back now or wait and see.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
How many minutes will you save by going from 79mph to 90mph? Over a distance of 60 miles, the best case scenario has you saving 5.6 minutes. Is it really worth the extra costs? You are much better off eliminating that 15mph approach to the station areas and removing that 30mph curve and get it up to 45mph.
AEM7
I have seen those new trains run on the PM rush hour service already with the older GM F40PH-2 locomotives and Nippen-shayio Bi-level passenger cars.
http://www.all-transit.com/photos/index/cal-1.htm
http://bayrailalliance.org/caltrain/bb/index.html
The CTX project involved track improvements primarily. The FRA is still the FRA. Even 80 mph requires installation of cab-signal systems. Caltrain actually got a signal upgrade of sorts (a variation of CTC called "speed signal system") that allowed the 79-mph speeds; before that, top speed was 60 mph.
Take that up with the FRA.
By the way, supposed to be no gallery cars on the expresses.
-Chris
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Heh, once you name a service it's easier to cut funding for it.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06012004.shtml#Call
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Well hopefully this will cut down on dwell times at the bussier stations.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06012004.shtml#Connecticut
If they really wanted to upgrade, they would've bought cars with low level boarding in the 1st place.
Only bright spot is, if all the platforms go high, plus if certain M2/4/6/8 cars could be equipped to handle voltage changes on the fly between 12kV and 25kV, then the SLE could actually have EMU service instead of the wasteful diesel-under-wires service currently being operated.
Only bright spot is, if all the platforms go high, plus if certain M2/4/6/8 cars could be equipped to handle voltage changes on the fly between 12kV and 25kV, then the SLE could actually have EMU service instead of the wasteful diesel-under-wires service currently being operated.
I for one am glad they are finally putting in the high-level platforms at these stations. This is the first step in eliminating the pointless diesel service.
As I understand (ask Dutchrailnut), the M-2s lack 25kv transformers and while the M-4/6s have them, they lack the ACCESS cab-signalling system that is required for east of New Haven service. It sounds like it would be costly to retrofit these cars to this specification.
However, the M-8's should be fully able to operate east of New Haven so now that high-level platforms are being installed once they get rolling (not for now, it seems) we can finally have all-electric service in all-electric territory.
Question: When the M-8's get rolling (whenever that will be), and if they do run a few peak hour through trains between GCT and Old Saybrook/New London, these trains will be New Haven expresses for that section of the route and I assume will run 8-10 cars. Yet the platforms will be much shorter than that east of NH -- will the whole trainset continue to run the length? (Though perhaps electric and GCT trough service will increase ridership on the Shore Line East)
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The tricky part with NS is that it's hard to be sure which end of the Throughbread you're talkin to.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06012004.shtml#NS
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Yes, the new focus it getting trains to their destinations.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06012004.shtml#CSXIntermodal
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Given how RA has kept the historic flavour of the other PRR lines it operates what with keeping the position lights and all I don't see any objecting to them taking control of the line out of the clutches of the evil blue empire. However, if one really wants to see the line restored to mainline status NS might be a better bet.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06012004.shtml#RailAmerica
Since when are you English . . . ?
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06012004.shtml#Banning
First you can't bank the track (have elevation) on a switch point unless you want to bias the route one way or another. Let's say you have a turn out that looks like a Y, then the two branches will require opposite elevation and you can only choose one. If you have a straight route with a turnout, then you can't have superelevation unless you want to restrict the speed of through trains.
Secondly you can have high speed turnouts on subways and it's not necessarily a problem if you have the right geometry. The turnouts on the Red Line MBTA at JFK are rated for 25mph (although I am not sure what SIZE of turnouts are used -- maybe the turnouts are sized for faster speeds but the signal system limits the speed to 25mph). Going through that (relatively) high speed turnout isn't nearly as bumpy as the kind of jerk you normally get on a plainline curve when they run through it at 40mph (e.g. that curve underneath Lafayette Sq between Kendall and Central in Cambridge).
Third to answer the question about the el's, the forces the el's would take on a turnout is no different from the forces the el's would take on a curve given the same rolling stock and same speed. What is different about a typical turnout is that as discussed earlier, there is no elevation, and there is usually a reverse curvature (especially for crossovers). Reverse curve means the same train can be subject to forces in different directions at the same time. It also means that elevations are nearly impossible because the lack of transition. I'm not a structural engineer but I believe the lack of high speed turnouts on el's has more to do with the geometry of the el's instead of the dynamic loading on the structure.
In short, the geometry constrains train speed because if you made the turnout any faster the train would either fly off the el or throw the passengers out through the side windows.
AEM7
>>http://www.arema.org/<<
these folks have subsumed the Railway Engineering Assn whose mission is pprecisely researching these issues.
The relevant section seems to be here from the AREMA handbook but I don't see anything that talks about el's. I guess el is part of the structure and therefore belongs to the Bridges & Structures department and not the Track department. That's also why I know so little about el's. Maybe I will have a look tonight in the W.W.Hay book they were talking about.
Perhaps I should have been more specific about the banking. The turnout itself can not be banked but the curve that results from the turnout can.
The forces experienced by passengers on a curve without elevation is proportional to the square of the speed. So on a 35mph curve the forces experienced is approximately twice that at 25mph. Whether that is a "big" difference is a matter of opinion.
Throw elevation into the mix, you can pretty much make curves at 25mph feels just like the curve at 35mph. All you need to do is to make the elevation at the 35mph curve twice that of the one on the 25mph curve. However, you would also need to have a transition twice as long -- and that's where the track geometry comes into play. Sometimes congested city spaces simply won't allow you to lengthen that transition, or broaden that curve radii.
At some point you run into "toppling" issues when the train is stopped on the curve. But in my experience, that kind of issues don't really happen until you hit about 45mph on typical railroad-sized curves. On el's, you can't have railroad-sized curve radii, though, unless you want to tear up the neighbourhood. On MARTA, they probably could have gotten away with it -- constructed a wider curve.
AEM7
25 MPH is kind of general a statement for subway turnouts. As you know WMATA uses two different frog angles on main line turnouts.
Most if not all of the crossover interlockings have #10 frog, however the maximum allowed speed through crossover depends on the track center on the parallel track. The lowest maximum allowed speed will be found in crossover with main line track centers of 14’ (4.26m). Main line track centers of 36’ (11m) or greater have higher maximum allowed speed. One of the reasons for the lower maximum allowed speed 14’ (4.26m) main line track centers is because of the closeness of the opposite curves in the turnouts that form the S curve in the crossover.
The other frog angle is #14. The #14 frog turnouts are used only in the junction interlockings. By heavy rail rapid transit standards these switches are high speed. As I recall most of the junction interlockings have a 40 MPH maximum allowed speed through the diverging route of the of the turnout.
When addressing Christopher question concerning physics applied to NYCTA elevated structures. The elevated structure would have to be modified primarily to properly support the difference of the track centers through the smaller angle of the turnout of the high speed switch. There would be little difference between lateral forces applied to the elevated structure between existing turnouts and high speed turnout.
Perhaps I should have been more specific about the banking. The turnout itself can not be banked but the curve that results from the turnout can.
Well yes and no. Turnout can be banked. However the banking will be the same for both routes. The only time banking is generally used in turnouts is when the normal route through the turnout is in a curve.
John
Not necessarily though. You would just have to make the diversion acute enough; making the diversion slight enough so that it causes no more lateral acceleration than what's acceptable at 40 M.P.H.. Now, the problem with that I believe, is the switches would be extremely impractical for rapid transit applications.
Firstly, the length of a simple crossover would be super long. Secondly, a longer switch means a longer/ heavier switchblades, which means a bigger, more powerful switch - motor. That - of course - means more expensive.
For that matter, if you were to ride Metro-North, those trains routinely take the tunouts/ crossovers at at least 30. New Jersey Transit on the NEC has to take those switches at 40 I know (I've ridden them). So it's not impossible, or even improbable, except for the fact that this is rapid transit we're talking about.
Lastly, in Japan, ( those good old Japanese ), I read in Popular Science ( or Mechanics ) that they're testing 100 M.P.H. switches. They are 1/4 mile long!! Imagine the switch motors for that sucker!!
R-32.
BTW:
(1) 100mph switches have been in use on the British Rail East Coast Mainline since about 1991 or so.
(2) You need three switch motors in addition to one to swing the switch nose.
(3) Yes it is 1/4 mile long.
(4) The location of the ECML switch is at Doncaster Jct. North, where the main line branches off from the Leeds Line.
By "switch nose" I assume you mean what we call 'frogs'; and therefore refer to what we call 'Moveable Point Frogs'. Another one of those transatlantic hood/'bonnet', trunk/'boot', elevator/'lift' differences, I suppose.
I was thinking it but didn't say that a moveable frog was definitely necessary due to the fact that the rail gap, caused by a rail gap on the intersecting rail even an inch wide ( not practical, I know ), would be enormous. Factor in also, that the acute points in the frog would wear down over time and become blunt, further increasing the gap.
BTW, the brits call switches 'points', and rail - 'line' - cute.
R-32.
But as for on an L? Oy. And if the L were in as bad a shape as what we've got here in Chicago, well... It just ain't gonna happen. (Not even on the as-yet-unconstructed airport expresses.)
As for Park Ave.: 50 - 60 MPH; REALLY? There you go then! I knew they couldn't be crawling over those switches.
R-32.
It would not generate any sway at all.
There is a rule of paw (ah er... thumb) here and it works something like this: (I may have my numbers wrong, but the Idea stands by itself.)
MPH = Frog / 2
if you have a number 6 turn out the speed would be 3 mph.
If you have a number 8 turn out the speed would be 4 mph.
Most railway switches are a number 20 turnout, thus 10 mph.
A 40 mph switch would have a No. 80 frog.
an 80 mph switch would have a No. 160 frog: Ie it would be pretty damn straight, and thus impose no sway on the structure.
Elias
Well I could have a division sign where a multiplication sign ought to be. *That* would make a difference.
In any event the frog number is a ratio.
A number 6 frog would have 1 foot of diversion for 6 feet of travel.
A number 20 frog would have 1 foot of diversion for 20 feet of travel.
The number does not have anything to do with speed, but the sharper the diversion the more slowly you must take the switch. Obviously a diversion into yard or siding track must be taken more slowly, and must a crossover, since it is two diversions rolled into one.
It was supposed to be a "Rule-of-Thumb" and obviously other factosr enter into this, but all other things being equal, a longer frog will allow a faster speed.
So if smoebody is talking about "High Speed Switches", a longer frog is part of the equasion.
Make the frog long enough, and there will be no noticable sway in the train or on the structure.
Elias
The frog number is the length divided by the spread. A #10 frog
would have a gauge spread of 1 foot measured 10' from the frog's
theoretical point.
Yes, I am dyslexic, and I tend to botch anything that gives me a binary choice. i.e. Right and Left.
But maybe that is why we raise cows here: If its not one thing its an udder!
: ) Elias
You just don't have the real estate for that kind of switch
in a transit application, especially an older one like NYCT,
where the prevailing speeds are 40 MPH even on tangent track.
Notice how none of the signals can display a low speed digerging aspect.
I had a front lit pic, but it only showed one signal.
And no, the sun is behind the CPL target in the forground.
A 40 MPH turnout would nominally call for a #20 frog.
The total length of a #20 crossover would be about 1 train length,
end to end. That's still a lot of real estate. It's pretty tough
to do in a typical NYCT tunnel, because of the amount of column
removal necessary. The length of third rail gap also starts
to become an issue. I believe there are a few #20 turnouts
in the system, but offhand I can't think of where.
It's not obvious that the longer crossover would have any greater side thrust. Running through a #20 at 40 mph or a #8 at 16 mph would require something like the same lateral acceleration, so the same thrust... right?
What I would worry about more is pounding of the frog point
on such a shallow angle frog.
If anyone knows how I could get my hands on 50 maps at once without having to go through 50 stations, please let me know. Thanks!
Customer Information
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Agreed. Why should this information be posted on nyscubway.org.
...because we're a site about transit in New York City.
PCC Stills
Also for those interested
What do freight engines do for a change of pace? Pull something else.
NS and UP pulling the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey circus train for CSX (yeah, surprised me too).
East Penn Railways passenger excursion on the old Reading Bethlehem Branch with former Conrail geometry train engine B23-7 1933 doing the honors pulling a trio of New Hope and Ivyland coaches.
Video
For the entertainment of Newkirk Plaza David and company
·When you mouse over the 1, 2, 3, and 9 bullets near Houston St, the alt text for all of them reads "2 Line".
·No part of 45 Rd-Court Sq (G, 7) is clickable.
·Mouse over the G at Forest Hills and the alt text reads "R Line".
·Mouse over the R at Forest Hills and the alt text reads "G Line".
·Mouse over the A at Rockaway Park and the alt text reads "S Line".
·Mouse over the S at Rockaway Park and the alt text reads "A Line".
·Mouse over Utica Avenue[E Pkwy] and the alt text reads "1, 4 Lines".
·Mouse over Franklin Avenue[E Pkwy] and the alt text reads "S, 1, 2, 4, 5 Lines".
·Hoyt Street[Clark St line] not only displays "1, 2 Lines" in its alt text, but when you click on it, it takes you to a page where you choose from the 1 and 2 lines!
·Broadway-Nassau/Fulton's alt text reads "A, C, J, M, Z, 1, 2, 4, 5 Lines".
·Court St-Borough Hall's alt text reads "M, N, R, 1, 2, 4, 5 Lines" (N and 1 shouldn't be there, the 3 is missing).
·Atlantic Avenue-Pacific Street's alt text reads "M, N, Q, R, W, 2, 3, 4, 5 Lines"
·Marcy Ave is clickable, but has no alt text.
·Cortlandt STreet's alt text reads "R Line" and when clicked leads to the R line. (Where's the W?)
·The 6 at Brooklyn Bridge is clickable, but has no alt text.
·7th Avenue[53 St]: alt text and link refer only to the "E Line".
·There's an arrow next to the D near 161 St.
·The D next to it has no alt text, nor is it clickable.
·The arrow, however, is clickable, and takes you to the D line page (with "D Line" alt text).
·The words "rush hours" next to the B near 161 St is clickable, and leads to the B line page (with appropriate alt text).
·The B next to it, on the other hand, points to the D line's page (the alt text also reads "D Line").
·Neither the B nor the D near 174-175 Sts are clickable (nor does either contain any alt text). Same for the B at Bedford Pk Blvd.
·The Z bullet near Myrtle Avenue is clickable, but has no alt text.
·Chambers Street [A/C] is clickable but has no alt text.
·Alabama Avenue is shown as a local stop. Alt text and link refer only to the J Line.
They are fixing 96 St and swapping 1 & 3!!!
;-)
Chuck Greene
By the way, Callowhill Depot is the oldest operating SEPTA depot. It opened on Nov. 30, 1913. It is most likely one of the oldest operating transit depots left in the U.S.A.
As far as Route 56 goes, it looks like it's finished for good. Torresdale Ave. is to be paved over this summer, from Frankford Ave. past Cottman, and the overhead will be removed as well. Route 23 will remain intact for the time being.
Chuck Greene
Callohill is not the oldest transit depot in the US. That honor may go to the Maryland Transit Administration's Bush Street complex, which was built by the United Railways and Electric Company in 1903. It was designed by Francis Baldwin, who also designed the B&O Roundhouse at Pratt & Poppleton Streets, today's B&O Museum.
The facility has been in continuous transit use for 101 years.
Anyways, I might see Callowhill for myself since I'm going to be down in that area for a few days for the unveiling of Red Arrow 14. My travel plans as they stand now call for at least one day in Philadelphia so hopefully I'll be able to ride and take a few pictures of Rte. 15 with the K cars and the new PCCs. I'd take more time off work if the trolley buses were running at Frankford except I've heard that their reinstatment has been postponed until the fall sometime.
-Robert King
Daryl J
SEPTA reminds me of that old song "You keep me hangin' on." They allow us to maintain the hope that rail service on some of these routes will return by leaving rail and overhead wire (largely) in place. Sometimes I think the rail and wire is still there only because nobody has the cash to remove them.
Reminds me of SEPTA's past moto: "We're getting there"
Chuck Greene
"With the publication, in 1963, of "The Re-Shaping of British Railways" Britain's transport system would never be the same.
Written by the chairman of the British Railways Board - Dr Richard Beeching - it proposed closing almost a third of the network , around 5,000 miles. Over 2,000 stations would shut, thousands of passenger carriages would be scrapped, along with a third of a million freight wagons.
He made two basic findings: firstly that around 95 per cent of all rail traffic was being carried on about 50 per cent of the network - the remaining 50 per cent was hardly used. Secondly, he found that what railways did best was high speed, long distance bulk haulage - whether passenger or freight the conclusions were the same. That is why his report proposed closing hundreds of branch lines. They were hopeless loss-makers and always would be. He also proposed taking local stopping trains off lines that were to remain open. They also lost money. Similarly, local goods trains would be chopped and wayside goods depots closed along with the passenger stations.
Was it worth it? Opinion is still divided. Beeching's fans - and there are lots of them, including many professional railwaymen - say yes. They reckon Beeching saved the railway from financial meltdown and a far bigger closure programme. But others disagree. They say mistakes were made and some lines were closed that under any rational scheme would have stayed open, including the Great Central main line from London to Nottingham. It had been built to Continental standards, and was capable of carrying European sized carriages and wagons which are too big for most British lines. It could today be carrying Channel Tunnel trains all the way to Sheffield."
[Note: the Government recently rejected the proposed "Central Railway", a plan to rebuild that line for freight.]
For British Railways maps before and after the Beeching Axe, see http://www.joyce.whitchurch.btinternet.co.uk/maps.htm . Looking at the passenger density map, most of the dotted lines (carrying under 5000 passengers per week) were closed.
Now there is a possibility that history may repeat itself. "One recent prediction is that between 3,000 - 4,000 miles of the network - it currently is about 10,000 miles - are at risk of closure simply because of the high cost of keeping it open. One analyst reckons that about 200 country stations handle less than 50 passengers per year and should be closed immediately."
However some of the longer lines in the Scottish highlands were spared from the Beeching Axe, including some north of Inverness. The Scotrail map shows the lines that are still open, and they are scenic routes with typically three trains per day.
Shame they didn't apply the same standards to the GCML through Leicester. I have suspicions that the date on that map will be fairly late, well after the LMR had started its priority order of (1) LNWR, (2) MR, (3) anything else.
Amazingly, the density via Solihull seems to have been higher than via Coventry. This probably owes something to the combination of Snow Hill and Paddington versus New St and Euston!
Yes, and that is the reason rail is still competitive in that corridor despite really crappy plant. A9 is going to dual-carriageway soon though (may already be that way now) so it's not really that big an advantage. Besides why drive Carter Bar to Edinburgh when you can drive M74 all the way Carlisle to Motherwell and take the M90 all the way to Stirling and thence onto Inverness -- or use one of the Borders cut-offs. (Not that I am not a die hard fan of A68).
However some of the longer lines in the Scottish highlands were spared from the Beeching Axe, including some north of Inverness.
Closing the Highland Lines were not very cost effective. Most of it was lightly used and lightly maintained anyway so you didn't stand to save much money by axing them. Shutting down commuter service was much more lucrative (from BR's balance sheet standpoint) since commuter service consumed rolling stock and labor like nothing else, especially if you can put failure-pronem high-maintenance plants out of commission.
Of course, politics came into play too. The reason why the Far North Line were not shut down had more to do with the (presumed fact) that Dr. Beeching started from the South and worked his way North. For the same reason Settle-Carlisle survive and the Great Central did not. The Waverley Route is one exception.
AEM7
Um, I believe the aeroplane has been invented.... London to Inverness is well beyond the optimum distance for rail journeys, well into air travel's natural realm.
"Closing the Highland Lines were not very cost effective"
Of the (allegedly) surplus 3-4,000 miles I'd guess a fair proportion is in Scotland. However, since Beeching's time we have had devolution and there is now a Scottish Parliament. I suspect a new Beeching axe would lead to an enormous battle between the UK government and the Scottish Executive; it might just be the fiilip that the Scottish Nationalists need to win Scottish Parliament elections and go for full independence.
At a price. The last-minute roundtrip fare on EasyJet (a discount airline) is over 100 pounds, and advance purchases are about 60 pounds. There must be cheaper rail options.
I don't think you understand the cost function of the railroad. To maintain that plant between Perth and Inverness (all of 86 miles worth) given the number of passengers who ride that line annually (about 76,000 passengers, by my crappy modelling estimate using train capacities and load factors as a proxy), you'll be paying a lot more than 100 pounds per seat in track and signal maintenance alone. 100 pounds per seat for 76,000 passengers is 7,600,000 pounds per year... will pay for about 120 workers... do you know how many people it takes to keep that line running?
Easyjet is almost invariably cheaper than rail for long England-Scotland journeys. Recently I booked a Luton-Aberdeen trip on Easyjet about three weeks before travelling (I'm going next week) - the fare was 40 pounds return including all taxes. I haven't done Luton-Inverness, but I doubt if it would be much more if you book ahead. The low-cost airlines' fares algorithm leads to higher fares if you book at the last minute. To get under Easyjet's fares you'd need a special offer fare on the train - once a couple of years ago I booked too late to get a reasonable fare Luton-Edinburgh on Easyjet, so I went Peterborough-Edinburgh on GNER instead, for 25 pounds one-way.
The cheapest train fare London-Inverness seems to be an Apex return at 69 pounds round-trip. The Saver return is 100 pounds, and a standard class open return is 200 pounds. I doubt if Easyjet ever reaches 200 pounds round-trip.
Ouch. I didn't realize the train fares were so high.
In practice, the distances/times are so long that there isn't really much point in going by train from London to Aberdeen or Inverness - except as a railfan, of course. Depending on the route and the connections, the time from London to Inverness is 8.5 to 10 hours. I don't suppose many people make their choice based on price alone.
More significant would be the fares from the Scottish central belt (Glasgow, Edinburgh and around) to north of Scotland destinations, since people are more likely to use the train for those sorts of distances. Apex (the cheapest) fares from Glasgow or Edinburgh to Aberdeen or Inverness are 22 pounds round trip.
Can you say "Caledonian Sleeper"?
Depending on the route and the connections, the time from London to Inverness is 8.5 to 10 hours. I don't suppose many people make their choice based on price alone.
When I was at college, I knew a guy who lives in Elgin and went to college near London. He would make the 10-hour run by train, and he was not a railfan. However he talked about the concept of the probabilistic fare, which was that if he had chosen to fly, he would have a 100% probability of paying a bus fare to the airport, 100% probability of paying an air fare and then he would have to pay the rail fare for Dyce to Elgin because Dyce has pretty strict revenue control. However he said that his fares were regularly not collected by the conductors if he went the all-rail route, hence his choice. In his database, he demonstrated that there was a 40%-60% chance of paying fare if he went all-rail (with the average being 53%).
More significant would be the fares from the Scottish central belt (Glasgow, Edinburgh and around) to north of Scotland destinations
It's funny, because this is the segment when rail takes longer than road. London-Edinburgh is a 8 to 12 hour drive, but Edinburgh-Aberdeen is a 2-2.5 hour drive and Edinburgh-Inverness is a 3-3.5 hour drive. The train usually took more time, except for the London-Edinburgh which is famously 4 hours by train. So I'd have thought if you were travelling London-Inverness and didn't want to fly, you would rail to Edinburgh then drive to Inverness rather than the other way round.
AEM7
Me: "More significant would be the fares from the Scottish central belt (Glasgow, Edinburgh and around) to north of Scotland destinations"
AEM7: "It's funny, because this is the segment when rail takes longer than road. London-Edinburgh is a 8 to 12 hour drive, but Edinburgh-Aberdeen is a 2-2.5 hour drive and Edinburgh-Inverness is a 3-3.5 hour drive. The train usually took more time, except for the London-Edinburgh which is famously 4 hours by train. So I'd have thought if you were travelling London-Inverness and didn't want to fly, you would rail to Edinburgh then drive to Inverness rather than the other way round"
I wasn't assuming the person drove from London to Edinburgh/Glasgow and then got on a train to Inverness. I was assuming the passenger lived in Glasgow/Edinburgh and wanted to go to Inverness.
Let me see if I have this right ... on a ten-hour rail trip, there was only about a 50-50 chance of the fare being collected? That sounds preposterous!
London-Edinburgh is a 8 to 12 hour drive, but Edinburgh-Aberdeen is a 2-2.5 hour drive and Edinburgh-Inverness is a 3-3.5 hour drive. The train usually took more time, except for the London-Edinburgh which is famously 4 hours by train. So I'd have thought if you were travelling London-Inverness and didn't want to fly, you would rail to Edinburgh then drive to Inverness rather than the other way round.
Drive what from Edinburgh? Renting a car surely would make the trip an expensive one indeed.
I don't know what is going on with this guy, but that's what he claimed and he had a database to show it. Since I have worked for a BR subsidary, I sort of know how it works: the guy would not board at a London terminal, where tickets are sure to be checked. He would board at the first stop on the Highland Chieftain, which is Peterborough, and dodge the ticket checks there (easy, because the train is packed). Then sometimes the conductor forgets to announce "all tickets please" once the train leaves from Newcastle so now he's in Edinburgh and hadn't paid a single dime. Departing Edinburgh, they do check the tickets but the Highland Chieftain is an all-stops-local to Perth, so they probably don't bother to seriously collect revenue until after Perth, and he probably knows the Perth crews.
AEM7
I forgot to mention the reason WHY fare collection isn't taken more seriously -- under the ORCATS system, total route revenue is attributed to various trains based on the number of trains per day. Thus on a GNER train to Inverness, GNER earns about 15% of the value of the ticket after commission. So for example, for a 40 pound ticket Edinburgh to Inverness:
7% of 40 pounds go to the TOC which actually sold the ticket (2.80 pounds)
15% (1 train per day) of 93% of 40 pounds go to GNER (1 train per day) = 5.58 pounds
65% (4 trains per day) of 93% of 40 pounds go to ScotRail (1 train per day) = 24.18 pounds
15% (1 train per day) of 93% of 40 pounds go to ScotRail's Sleeper Business Unit (1 train per day) = 5.58 pounds
That's also the reason why the Sleeper carries coach, even though it hardly ever carries anybody. Carrying that empty car entitles the carrier to 15% of the total OD revenue.
Things may have changed since 2001, but this was how it was done in 2001.
AEM7
Virgin is a bit hit-and-miss regarding ticket checking in my opinion, and sometimes when the conductor does come round I notice passengers who have just boarded either pretend to be asleep or ignore the request for tickets, as though they have already had theirs checked. Needless to say these ploys seem to work all the time. Maybe tighter ticket checks should take place on stations before people have chance to board the train?
I do recall once travelling back from Chester on a packed Virgin HST. I was sat round a table and the guy opposite me had also boarded at Chester, obviously had no ticket and pretended to be asleep when the conductor appeared. The conductor tried to 'wake' him by saying 'tickets from Chester please' a couple of times, but gave up. Sensing that he had got a result, and obviously thinking himself a real star for doing so, he said to no-one in particular 'huh, showed that f**ker!', not realising that the conductor was stood right behind him! Needless to say, that exercise in stupidity cost him one full fare ticket, much to the amusement of me and the other two people sat round the table.
Minor correction: to and from Brighton, and East Croydon to Victoria, would have then been South Central (recently renamed Southern), not Southeast. The Brighton to London Bridge service is usually Thameslink (going onwards to points north of London) but would have been South Central if it was actually terminating at London Bridge.
Thameslink trains are OPTO and ticket checking is random (and rare, in my experience). However, all of its stations north of London have London Underground-style turnstiles requiring swiping in and out. South of London I have less experience of Thameslink - maybe they have more frequent visits by Revenue Protection Staff (formerly called travelling ticket collectors) when south of the Thames.
You are correct, it was South Central.
The return trip from Brighton was scheduled to go to Victoria but was diverted to London Bridge due to track work. Also, East Croydon to Victoria should have read West Croydon to Victoria. This was separate from the Brighton trip; I had taken the District Line to Wimbledon, explored all of the Croydon Tramlink, and decided to take a regular train back to London.
Not really. I could quite easily get from Birmingham to the South Coast without a ticket. Here's how it's done:
Birmingham to Watford Junction (VT): try to pick one that stops at Rugby to increase the crowding and reduce the chance that a ticket inspector can get round. Then you're within the barriers. You won't get your ticket checked on SC between there and Clapham Junction. Then get on a SWT service to Dorking. Again, tickets are virtually never checked. The next bit is the chancey one: get on SC to Horsham. Then get on another SC train. It'll probably be an Electrostar, so get in the portion the guard isn't in. You can then change at Ford for free connections to Littlehampton, Worthing, or Brighton, stay in one part for Bognor, or the other half for Chichester and Portsmouth.
I can assure everyone that I'd actually buy a ticket every time, but with that routing, the incidence of getting away without paying would be way higher than 50%.
BTW -- this is because of incomplete OD pricing. Say the rail fare to Edinburgh was 92 pounds, and the rail fare Edinburgh-Inverness is 40 pounds, it would not be possible for them to offer the London-Inverness fare for less than 92 pounds -- because people will preferentially buy the London-Inverness ticket instead of the London-Edinburgh ticket and simply abandon part of the ticket. Because of the lack of OD control, some of the fares may be set at suboptimal levels when compared against equivalent airline fares. I bet you the London-Newcastle easyJet fare is more than the London-Inverness one.
AEM7
You lose your bet! Minimum Stansted-Newcastle fares (Easyjet doesn't fly to Newcastle from Luton) start from about 40 pounds return all inclusive.
The point being that airlines can afford to set their minimum fares much lower than rail can because they also have precise bucket control. Bucket control is impossible to enforce on trains but since air is reservations-compulsory, even if only 2 seats are available at 40 pounds (and the next bucket is 70 pounds) they can still advertize the minimum fare.
AEM7
The peak return from Wivenhoe to London is 30 pounds or so, but there are two ways to defeat the system:
1) Book a return from Wivenhoe to Shenfield, and a return from Shenfield to Liverpool Street (saved 5 pounds last time I tried it). The staff at Wivenhoe will sell this happily as long as the queue is not too long.
2) Holders of a Network Railcard can book a single from Wivenhoe to London, plus a one day Travelcard from Wivenhoe. With the railcard discount, this costs the same as the peak return, but gives travel in London as an addition. This is best purchased the day before, as it takes some explaining purchasing a ticket on day of travel outside its validity period.
Apparently there are numerous fare anomalies that can be taken advantage of, and fares manuals are available for purchase to the general public.
Ticket staff at Bedford station informed me a couple of years ago that if you wish to book two head-to-head tickets to cover a single journey, the train does have to stop at the boundary station, so that notionally one could have got off the train and straight on again. They said that this had been a recent change in the rules. Since then I haven't seen fit to try it on, so that if I go on to Nottingham (for example) I make sure I come back on a train that actually stops at Loughborough.
Prior to that, it was normal for a person with a London all-zones season ticket (Travelcard) to get a single from Mill Hill Broadway to Bedford, even though the London-Bedford trains don't usually stop there, and say that the part from St Pancras to Mill Hill was covered by their season ticket.
IINM, there's a separate ticket "Boundary Zone 6" to wherever. It is exactly the same fare as from the last station in Zone 6, but the train doesn't have to stop there. It also means that you aren't restricted to one route (eg BZ6 to Epsom could mean via Stoneleigh or via Cheam).
Depends where you live. You probably don't live at Kings Cross [you wouldn't want to live around there (8-) ] and if you live north of London it might be as cheap, or cheaper, to go to Luton or Stansted. If you live on the South Coast it will be cheaper to get to Gatwick Airport than to Kings Cross. I live in Bedford, so it's cheaper, and more convenient, for me to go to Luton Airport than to a London train terminus.
Do EasyJet fly from Gatwick?
It's a bit of hit and miss. Business travellers tend to head downtown in the UK, although in the U.S. there are many suburban business districts where business travellers also go. Hotels also tend to be in the suburbs. Then originating passengers almost always live in the suburbs. So in fact airlines have a good advantage, which can be countered by installing "Parkway" type stations (e.g. Route 128).
New York to this day has no "Parkway" station on the Shore Line.
AEM7
AEM7
Yes. Possibly still is, even though The Times has moved to Docklands. There never was a Times Square in London AFAIK.
Has City Airport taken the place of the early morning newspaper trains of yore ?
No. Newspaper technology has changed: the paper is put together at the editorial offices and then the final pages are wired electronically to printing plants around the country, where it is printed under contract. Such physical carrying of papers around as still goes on - shorter distances - is done by road.
London City Airport is an STOL airport that can therefore take only certain types of (smallish) plane.
Yes. Either I have to get myself to Sandy station (eight miles east of Bedford) to pick up a WAGN train to Peterborough, which means I have to get my wife to give me a lift there, or I have to get an infrequent bus from Bedford to Peterborough, whereas I can get a frequent train from Bedford station to Luton Airport station.
"Do EasyJet fly from Gatwick?"
Yes. Their London services are scattered around Gatwick, Stansted and Luton. They don't go to every destination from every one of the three London airports, though. Incidentally, from Bedford I can also get direct trains to Gatwick, though they take about two hours to get there. To Stansted, for practical purpose I have to drive (though theoretically I could get a bus to Cambridge and then a train to Stansted, both services are only hourly and they don't connect).
Stansted is a pain to get to unless you're starting from Cambridge, Liverpool St station, or Victoria coach station. If I want to fly somewhere, my order of priority would be Birmingham, Luton, Heathrow, Manchester, East Midlands, Gatwick. Stansted wouldn't feature.
1) Because Jedburgh's a nice town. Motherwell doesn't really compare.
2) Because it avoids the B6318 or A69 to Carlisle if you're starting from Newcastle. Having said that, the B6318 Military Road is kinda fun!
3) Ditto various other horrible roads for those from anywhere North of M1 J19 on the East side of the country. This includes the M62 trans-pennine motorway from hell (and the M60 Manchester ring road).
4) Because I do kinda like the dash through the Northumberland wilderness up the A696 and A68 from Ponteland to Carter Bar (although it doesn't quite match the Military Road).
In Greater Manchester the line from Stockport to Stalybridge has a one train a week service to keep it still technically a 'passenger' line and avoid the efforts of shutting it, which would require a bill to be passed in Parliament. The weekly departure is rarely publicised at all and with timetable changes, its day of operation frequently varies, according to the availability of a unit, crew etc etc. Not surprisingly the crew is said to outnumber passengers 99% of the time. I believe that a few years ago there were three or four of these 'parliamentaries', as they were called at the time, in operation in Greater Manchester.
Freight trackage is another matter, as far as I know, although I would assume that usually the rails are just left there after services have ceased, presumably to keep the inevitable weeds, discarded shopping carts and sacks of illegally dumped rubbish company.
I thought the train had to run at least once a day. The case I was familiar with was the north side wye at Stansted Airport, which WAGN used to run a Cambridge-Stansted-Cambridge service back in 1995-ish until Central extended their 158 diesels from Cambridge down to Stansted Airport. When all this was happening WAGN had a big fight with Central since WAGN owned the pricing rights to that segment based on their one train per day and was unwilling to give it up. Eventually commonsense prevailed and the 8.22pm WAGN departure from Stansted Airport was caped and the turf turned over to Central's hourly service from (alternatingly) Liverpool Lime St. and Birmingham New St.
AEM7
That may be true of lines, but what about individual stations? The Strategic Rail Authority is planning to reduce the number of trains stopping at Swale, Kent, to one a week. Currently there are two trains per hour and one passenger per hour.
Interestingly, the proposal to link up the old Croxley Green line with the Metropolitan Line's Watford branch (thus letting Met trains go to Watford town centre and then Watford Junction for main line connections) is on the TfL website as a project that is under active discussion with Hertfordshire County Council.
I wasn't aware that this was a commonly-used route for freight, but thinking about it it's probably the easiest route for trains coming from the WCML and heading across the Pennines.
It doesn't need an act of parliament but it does need to go through a closure procedure which is quite long drwn out and legalistic.
When the Bluebell Line in Sussex (now a preserved steam railway) was first put up for closure after the Beeching Report, the permission to close was not given, and BR put on the minimum service required in the original act of parliament passed in the nineteenth century to build the line in the first place. Four trains a day each way, not stopping at the two stations that had been added since the original opening (they weren't mentioned in the act, you see). Needless to say this service didn't see much use, and the second attempt at the closure procedure worked.
Most London lines have high ridership and are unlikely to be closed. But one London terminus, Broad Street (next door to Liverpool Street), was closed in 1986 due to low ridership and the high value of the real estate that it occupied in the City. See Broad Street Station for illustrations.
Not true, by the way. If you took a look at the number of rail lines that existed in Massachusetts, the density is actually comparable and if you made a metric like "rail miles per head of population", then Massachusetts definitely win hands down. That's why most of the lines are abandoned now.
Even in places like Ohio and North Carolina, there was at one point a railroad through every town. There are less towns in U.S. than in the U.K., so there is less rail line density, because there is less town density and population density. The common theme is that railroads in both nations took a hit when highways started replacing them.
I feel sure the same number of people work in New York - so how do they get to work ?
At the opposite end of the scale, greater New York also has a much more extensive highway network than London, so the competing road capacity for commuters is greater (though likewise overtaxed).
"New York City is denser than London, so a larger proportion of its transit ridership is better handled by the subway than by commuter rail service (there are, what, a hundred and fifty more NYCTA stations than there are Underground stations?). Very little of New York's commuter rail service is dedicated to stations inside the city limits, while London's National Rail services are an integral part of urban transit, especially south of the Thames."
That is dead right. Inside the NYC limits, there are 475 subway stations and only 30-odd commuter rail stations, plus the SIR. LIRR and MNCR are used very little for transit *within* the city, partly because of their fare structure.
It is not widely known that there are actually *more* national rail stations (about 300) than Underground stations (about 275) within the boundaries of the Greater London Authority's area. (This is in addition, of course, to all the other commuter stations outside the London boundaries, up to say 75 miles out.) Most of these have a reasonable frequency - minimum half-hourly on weekdays between the peaks, more in the peak hours. Quite a lot of them are more frequent than that, though not up to Tube levels of frequency. Although the MTA Map and the London Connections map may suggest commuter rail systems of about equal extent, far more of the LIRR/MNCR/NJT systems are infrequent services on single-track lines.
London also has the expanding network of the Docklands Light Railway (currently 30-odd stations), and Croydon Tramlink (another 30-odd), though a minor proportion of the Croydon system is onstreet tramway.
True, but it does have all the twists and turns of the Thames, plus all the old docks in Docklands most of which are still full of water. One reason for the very closely spaced stations on the Docklands LR line from Poplar through Canary Waharf down to Island Gardens is that helevated section hops over each of the parallel docks, and stops at each of the strips of land between the docks.
The Underground has ten tunnels under the Thames and two bridges over it (the latter both on the District Line). The Docklands LR currently has one tunnel under the Thames and will have another in a few years' time. In central London, national rail has five bridges from the south over the Thames leading to Cannon Street, Blackfriars, Charing Cross, Victoria and Kensington Olympia stations, in addition to various others in outer London.
Even where there is no water barrier, the snarled-up road traffic is an incentive to use rail services.
But why have railways serving little villages when buses can do the job at a fraction of the cost. In some remote rural areas they use "post buses", so if you want to get there you ride the mail van. And that's even more economical.
It depends on whether you believe the railway as a developmental tool, or railway as a public service. The public service railway should go where the demand is. The development tool railway should go where the demand would be in a number of years. Chicken and egg.
It's been proven empirically that buses are not a viable development tool. Rail is also not viable, where development potential does not exist. Where it does, rail does a great job.
Here is an example we know and love. The Fife Loop out of Edinburgh is really a bit of a waste of money if you didn't think of Fife as being spillover for people who could not afford to live in the Lothians. Without A90 and the Fife railway, that area would still be farmland today.
AEM7
Reminds me of the pictures showing the 7 being built through what was then a sparsely settled Queens. Of course, that was a fairly obvious case, being so close to Manhattan. Figuring out what areas have development potential, and thus deserve rail service, isn't easy.
Yet they build highways and motorways right through them and act surprised when sprawl occurs. Come now . . . does the rail always have to play the catch-up game?
Sprawl doesn't always occur when you build highways and motorways through an area. How much sprawl do you see along the M74 and M6 through Southern Scotland and the Carlisle area? Ever heard of towns like Tebay, Abington, Crawford, Elvanfoot, St. Anns, Johnstonbridge? Where is the sprawl?
BTW, it's all about zoning, terrain, location of exits, and where the motorway is in relation to existing urban centers. Sprawl ain't that easy in the Southern Uplands of Scotland.
You just have something against Dr. Beeching.
AEM7
I think A 90 and the Forth ROAD Bridge did more to encourage residence in Fife than a 30 min. Rail service.
After Father decides he can drive to work in Edinburgh by car the train can be used by Mum and Dad to get about.
How about letting the taxes handle the rail maintenance as it does the road maintenance? (Don't say "Railtrack" either, but envision how it would be if done correctly.) If the buses had to pay for the road maintenance themselves, it would by no means be a "fraction of the cost".
Not to mention, how many "little villages" actually see bus service and you don't have to hire a taxi to reach?
Actually, most of them. When I lived in Felsted (Essex), buses ran three times a day on Thursdays and Fridays to Chelmsford. The more usual way out of the village was to wait for the Airport Bus (a long distance bus) and flag it down and go through Stansted Airport to go to London.
In the Far North of Scotland, there is usually a once-daily flag-me-down service along major highways that the Highland Regional Council contracted with the bus operators to run. To get to a major highway, you either hiked or rode a horse.
On the Isle of Mull, where there is hardly a road network (right, single track roads with passing places, made of gravel and only paved in places, and the road does not reach many parts of the island), you still had tourist buses that ran in the summer which met the ferries, and you had postbus once a day in the winter, which also met the ferry.
Not much road maintenance gets done on the island. The road is what it is, you either use it or you moved away.
AEM7
I remember reading somewhere that Beeching had his surveys conducted in the depths of winter. This is why so many holiday and tourist destinations lost their services. Also, because of the introduction of modern railway stock, many services were showing passenger growth at the time of closure. The Witham-Braintree branch is an interesting cas in point where, thanks to housing development and electrification of the main line, passenger growth reached the point where the line was reprieved.
Doesn't that show that overall the line wasn't paying it's way, according to the 'rules' he was working under at the time ?
How much Stock was retained, and extra staff needed, to work on Summer Saturdays in order to delay, at the LevelCrossings ,those people on the way to the West Country who had already bought a car or to satisfy Billy Butlin and seaside landladies who only took bookings from Saturday to Saturday ?
"As it was, some of the worst thought-out cuts came after Beeching himself had left B.R and returned to the private sector.......
Accrington is still served, though not via Bury. Bacup did indeed close, and part of the Bury-Bacup line is now a preserved steam line. Manchester-Bury didn't close permanently, but was closed for a year or two while it was converted into part of the Manchester Metrolink light rail system.
"Beeching's ridiculous philosophy that commuter services outside of London had no future...."
Was he the organ grinder or was he the monkey? I would have thought that policy decisions of that sort would have been taken at political level. I always preferred to think of it as the Marples cuts, rather than the Beeching cuts, as Ernest Marples was the (Tory) Minister of Transport at the time. At any rate, this policy wasn't really applied. Substantial commuter systems survived around Glasgow as well as Liverpool and Birmingham. The Newcastle system suffered neglect but didn't close, and later got converted into the Tyne and Wear Metro system which is still expanding.
In practice Manchester kept most of its commuter services. Both the Bury line and the Altrincham line (now also converted to light rail) suffered from having unique electrification systems so that no transfer of rolling stock to and from other lines could ever take place. Following Beeching, the Altrincham line (which was catenary electrified) was converted to the BR standard 25 Kv AC catenary, and much later converted again to the Metrolink system - an interesting case of the same line having had three different electrification systems over the last 80 years or so. Bury was third-rail electrified at 1500 v DC. It actually got a new generation of cars right about the time of Beeching, but was then converted to the light rail system, with overhead electrification.
And for the fact that Birmingham's commuter lines were very much hacked back for WWII. The Camp Hill Line is an obvious one which should not have lost its local service. Really, the metropolitan counties and their surrounding areas should have been treated like London.
You are making the assumption that provision of additional road for peak periods (but which are otherwise empty) is more efficient than travel by rail.
Swanage is a holiday resort that lost its line after Beeching. the line has been re-opened as a preserved steam line, but not all the way to the junction (Wareham). Useful not only for railfans, because they provide a park-and-ride service into Swanage, which visitors use because parking is impossible in Swanage. But they couldn't go through to Wareham becasue there was a source of freight traffic that meant that Network Rail (formerly Railtrack formerly British Rail) wouldn't sell that part of the line.
Now I hear that he freight traffic has ceased and Network Rail is in negotiation with the Swanage Railay about selling them the line into Wareham - which will link the Swanage line back to the main line network again, and enable visitors to go all the way by train.
Beeching was right up to a point, but the reality is that most of the "railways serving little villages" *did* in fact close after Beeching. I can belive that there might be 200 low-use stations left (though most of them are probably unstaffed), but I find it hard to belive that 30-40% of the remaining network is dispensible.
We need to remember that a lot of political in-fighting goes on through these various media reports, with different factions trying to influence decisions by publishing "factual" data. I wouldn't be surprised if the pro-road, anti-rail lobby lurks behind this report somewhere. The present government is moderately pro-rail, but there is a general election coming up next year......
That isn't really the right comparison. Beeching had no influence on the London Tube, and not much effect in the London commuter area of British Rail. A better one would be to compare what Amtrak runs today with the passenger services that the long-distance railways of the USA operated in (say) 1955. The reality is that Britain did have duplicate routes, and many rural lines that could never be viable in the era of the motor car.
Very often you are facing a constrained choice problem. One example I know of is the abandonment of the Forfar route to Aberdeen. Crack expresses used to run Glasgow-Perth-Stanley Jct.-Forfar-Aberoath-Aberdeen, instead of the current routing Glasgow-Perth-Dundee-Montrose-Aberoath-Aberdeen. The Forfar route met the axe because Forfar is a much smaller town than Dundee, plus Dundee is on the Edinburgh-Aberdeen route.
So what makes sense for one line doesn't necessarily make sense for the system.
Other than political reasons, I believe LMR won out over WR because of the industrial density and population density along its route.
AEM7
In terms of the West Midlands that isn't really true. West Bromwich, Wednesbury and Bilston seem far more advantageous intermediate points than Smethwick, Oldbury and Tipton. Once branches are considered, the Western would win hands down, with a service to every Black Country town except Walsall, which could have easily been rectified with a chord at Wednesbury. How the LMR Lines could have been fitted in would have been by building a Low Level station at Birmingham Moor St to allow easy interchange (there's already an emergency staircase there).
That's the precise issue. In terms of Scotland, retaining the Stanley Jct. to Aberoath line would have made sense. In fact there was a time when crack Aberdeen Expresses would run via Perth. Let me fill you in on the history:
Edinburgh-Kirkcaldy-Dundee was a string of branches, some passenger some freight, strung together end-to-end to form a through route.
Edinburgh-Kinloss-Perth-Dundee was the main line in the old days. Today it forms the alignment of M90 between Edinburgh and Perth.
Edinburgh-Dunfermline-Thornton Jct.-Leuchars-Dundee crossed under the old main line, and is today the Fife loop.
Perth is today served via Stirling, completely out of the way.
Also the line between Dundee and Montrose is really a collection of colliery branches. That's the reason for the single track section just before Montrose.
It would have made sense from a Scotland point of view to retain the Kinloss-Perth route which would also have permitted the Aberdeen trains to be routed via the Stanley Jct. route.
What are the downsides?
Firstly, abandoning the coastal alignment would have removed Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Glenrothes from direct service. This was a local issue.
Secondly, abandoning the Dunblane-Perth in favour of the Larbert-Kincardine/Alloa-Kinloss-Perth connexion would have substantially increased journey times from Glasgow. This was a 'Scotland' issue.
Thirdly, I believe the Intercity services at the time wished to visit Perth, Dundee, Aberdeen in that order. In effect the lines that retained were retained because they were needed to string a national network together, under which 'Scotland' was classified as a stub-end. So Scottish cities lost direct connections with each other because the demand doesn't justify keeping multiple lines open, and the national network needed to funnel all the demands together into a circuitous routing visiting all of the largest urban areas.
AEM7
Chuck
Runaway, ("a boy flees into the subway when his friend is killed"), 6/7 10:10 am STARZF
Catching Out (filmmaker follows hobos in the Northwest), 6/7 12:00 pm SUNDANCE
Living Dangerously "Train Wreck" 6/7 7:00 pm NGC
Living Dangerously -Rail Disasters, 6/8 2:00 pm NGC
Murder on the Orient Express (1974) 6/8 4:10 pm ENCORE
Emperor of the North (1973) "two hobos try to ride a 1930s freight train" 6/8 6:00pm FMC
History Traveler "The Chunnel" 6/8 8:00 pm HISI
Those Who Love Me Can Take The Train "swapping stories on a 4 hour train ride" 6/9 2:00 am SUNDANCE
Voyages - Trains Unlimited - Toy Trains, 6/9 11:00 am HISI
River of Iron, Dreams of a Grand Canyon Railroad, 6/10 12:00 WNETDT
Great Getaways "Napa Valley WIne Train", 6/10 1:30 pm FOOD
World's Best - America's Orient Express, 6/10 7:00 pm TRAVEL
"Mad About You" "Surprise" (Jamie and Paul lose each other on the subway), 6/11 1:00 am LIFE
World Tour "The Chunnel" 6/11 1:00 pm HISI (not sure if this is the same as the History Traveler episode)
Strangers on a Train (Hitchcock, 1951) 6/11 4:20 am HBOSIG
Marathon, ("a woman rides the subway to solve 77 crossword puzzles in 24 hours"), 6/11 1:00 pm SUNDANCE
Popular Mechanics for Kids "Underground", 6/13 11:00 am DCKIDS
Great Museums - Californai State Railroad Museum, 6/13 5:00 pm WNETDT
Gunsmoke "Snow Train" (trapped on a train in the mountains) 6/13 9:00 am TVLAND part 2 6/13 10:00 am TVLAND
Silver Streak (Wilder & Pryor, 1976) 6/13 10:30 pm AMC
Sewers of London - 6/13 9:00 pm NGC
Tracks Ahead, "Copper Canyon, Mex.; Mt. Rainier logging RR, more", week of 6/14 Mon-Fri 6:30 pm WNETDT
Voyages - Trains Unlimited - Circus Train, 6/16 11:00 am HISI
Modern Marvels - Railroads that Tamed the West 6/16 1:00 pm HISTORY
Terror on a Train (1953 film) 6/17 4:45 pm TCM
The Chinese Experience ("Chinese play a role in constructing the Transcontinental RR") 6/19 1:00 am WNJN
Alaska's Gold Rush Train - 6/19 2:30 am WNET
Secrets - Engineering Marvels Underground - 6/19 9:00 am TEAVEL
The Grand Tour - Canadian Rockies ("Canadian transcontinental RR") 6/19 1:00 pm BIO
Incredible Basements ("multilevel train layout") 6/19 5:00 pm HGTV
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I was watching with interest to see what would happen to our intrepid photographers, but so far not a word is heard?
Did they all get arrested?
do we have to bail them out?
Inquiring Minds want to know!
Then we moved in front of the police station, where one officer reprimanded a few of us for climbing on the barricades.
Click here for a directory listing
Stopped at a White Castle, huh? :)
My colleague Sleazy Santa was the one who went inside the conductor's booth and provoked the conductor to hold the doors for awhile. I have a picture of her screaming on that page.
I see you're a new poster, maybe new to the subfan community after hearing about this ban, I don't know. I wasn't there yesterday and didn't see this event first hand but trespassing (assuming it was) into a cab and provoking employees isn't going to help the cause at all. Again, assuming it was "entry without permission" what's that conductor going to think? What's she going to do next time she sees a photographer or group of them? That's right, call it in as fast as possible. You're lucky you didn't get arrested on the spot. That would have made a great photo op.
FORTUNATELY, it looks like the media didn't take advantage of that moron as I would have expected ... between THAT episode and the reassignment of a long term SIKH motorman, I hope the MTA is beginning to realize how MORONIC they've been looking lately, not that PATURKEY, their leader seems to care ... after all, he ain't up this year for a public accounting in the election booths or maybe it WOULD have mattered. :(
My colleague was only able to get in because of the conductor's negligence to lock the door (she did not lock it after she yelled at him and it swung open at the next stop).
And arrested for exactly what? I did not go inside the cab. I took pictures along with a crowd that had gathered around the cab, and the only reason I even spoke up to her was because she was yelling at my colleague- for her own STUPID mistake. Imagine if a terrorist was to go in there because she forgot to lock the door. My colleague merely went in to pose for a few pictures because he wanted to look like he was conducting a train.
Your pal,
Fred
more tomorrow.
thanks again to everyone that made it happen.
It was great to meet so many other railfans out in full force today. I thought it would be cool if we all shared some of our photos from today's protest. You can find a sampling of mine at:
http://users.rcn.com/gabefarkas/pictures/Railfan/Protest/
Thanks to everyone who organized this, and to everyone who showed. Hopefully we'll get some good press out of this whole thing.
Later.....
Either he forgot to point at the Zebra, or else his tie is crooked.
Elias
Honor thy Zebra!
One guy said something that I agreed with: "This is civil disobedience." And the guy backed off.
Absolutely. Plus, when you're in an underground station, a bright light suddenly going off sort of gets everyone's attention.
Of course if the MTA really didn't want flash being used, they could've added the word "flash" to the official rules. Quickly blinking a flash and using lights are two totally separate things.
Your pal,
Fred
Thanks to Joe for getting the ball rolling and to everyone that came out in support - this was a great event. It was also cool to meet a few of you out there...
i've only seen the online versions, not the paper ones....
Will Grand Central be off-limits? If so, this is seriously the biggest joke I've ever heard. Are they going to imprison all the stereotypical japanese tourists too with their cameras?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Oh, and the LIRR is considering it as well.
Well, for one, if it's the subway now, LIRR and MN are probably not too far behind. Also, this brought the protest to and from two of the busiest subway stations in the system, and through the loop of one of the busiest parts of Manhattan that central midtown area, and some of the heaviest traveled lines in that loop.
http://www.netherworldonline.net/mtaphotoprotest.htm
Oh, and me and Sleazy Santa made and distributed that flyer on your page, Kevin. Sleazy was also the guy who got inside the conductor's cab.
Buy a better digicam. The cheap ones (less than $300) generally have crappier CCD's that are noisier and therefore less sensitive. Just like film cameras, you need to buy a high speed camera for good indoor photos.
“LET the Iron Horse ride again,” said the sign on the front of the 1940s locomotive, the last to ply the route between Seoul and Pyongyang before the Korean war. This week, South Korea’s President Kim Dae Jung inaugurated work on rebuilding the 320km (200-mile) link, and the road that used to run alongside it.
*------*
Does this also have to do with CBTC? Is the F line the next line chosen after the L?
Robert
I don't know whether or not their planning CBTC testing, I've heard yes from some and no for others, but I think it's no. I believe that the 7 train is going to be next for that. But possibly sometime down the road after the Bergen St interlocking thing is complete after 2006, but I don't know that for a fact.
-Broadway Buffer
The train left Chicago on Saturday night, Stessel said, and was stopped shortly before noon Sunday.
Amtrak ordered buses brought to Cumberland and said passengers would be taken to their destinations. Stessel said passengers were only allowed to take medication off the train; everything else would be released once the investigation was over.
Stessel said the FBI and local law enforcement were investigating the scene. Cumberland police declined to answer questions about the incident; state police officials had no immediate information.
Stessel said it was unclear whether passengers or staff reported the men, or what the men were doing to make them appear suspicious.
He said police knew who the men were, but had no other details.
Stessel said trains are stopped because of similar reports about once a week. After an anonymous threat, Amtrak police stopped and searched three trains in Maryland in late May, including two Acela Express high-speed trains traveling from New York to Washington. Stessel said nothing unusual was found on those trains.
(Copyright 2004 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
wayne
Not to mention that many people who look Middle Eastern aren't. They could be Hispanic, or Indian, or racially mixed.
I'm sure we'll pick up at least a few undocumented illegals that way, and maybe more. Hell, you arrest any large number of people at random, and you're going to find somebody you're looking for.
In fact I can't think of a single way to cast a broader net toward catching terrorists, illegal aliens, fugitives from justice, deadbeat dads, people with overdue library books, and so on, than randomly picking names out of a phone book.
And hey - if you're innocent, you've got nothing to worry about, right?
Right?
It's funny how you mentioned that. That type of thing has already been done to cause the '00 presidential mess. A company bought out by Choicepoint(a publicly financed private big brother) was in charge of purging voter rolls; decided to be lazy by getting rid of anyone with a similar name to a felon instead of researching to see if they were 2 separate people and deleted a LOT more people than they were entrusted to.
Why stop now?
The Issue is NOT profiling. The issue is they are using the WRONG PROFILE.
They are profiling on a basis of national origin. Clearly a mistake!
Profile on the basis of BEHAVIOR, what a person is doing, and how they react to the presence of authority.
Elias
Like me.
Skip the Depends. those suckers leak bigtime. There are better brands out there. You gotta pay a little more and they are imported from Europe. But then Europeans have a lot of experience with that sort of stuff.
: ) Elias
Michael
Washington, DC
Mark
p.s.---see y'all on the 19th.---Bright and Early...
This is odd ... no news reports are saying anything about a bomb, and it should go without saying that a bomb's being found on a passenger train would be a BIG story. Also, the stock market is up quite a bit today, and even the merest HINT of a bomb would cause 1929-style capitulation. All I can think of is that: (1) somebody made an incorrect report over a scanner, or (2) the authorities have pulled off the best coverup in recent history.
But was it an actual, working, live bomb that was defused by the bomb squad, or was it more like a suspicious-looking package - unusually large, lumpy or heavy, with strange stains on the outside or emitting strange smells, or with wires coming out, so the person who found it called it in as a potential bomb on the radio, but then it turned out later to be nothing? Maybe when it was determined to be nothing you weren't listening to the scanner, or the communications were made on a secure channel, or, possibly, radio silence was ordered (not an unusual practice when a potential bomb is discovered).
My bottom line is that there will always be many, many, more false alarms than the real deal, and the ratio of false alarms to genuine detections rises exponentially with the paranoia level in society (and inversely to the amount of *real* security measures taken). If every sighting of a guy in a turban or named Muhammad, or someone taking pictures of a train or a suspicious package results in a rail line being shut down, or a bridge or tunnel shut down, or an office tower evacuated, or hundreds of people indefinitely detained without charge, or the freezing of thousands of peoples' assets indefinitely, we'll end up doing far more damage to our infrastructure and our economy than if we simply left Osama and his crew of lowlives up to their own devices.
Not that I think we should leave Osama up to his own devices - there are many genuine security precautions that can be taken without falling prey to paranoia, without unnecessarily infringing on the Constitutional rights of citizens and visitors, and that efficiently use the limited security resources available (instead of squandering them on stripsearching 75 year old Congressmen, threatening to confiscate Congressional Medals of Honor, groping pregnant women, and holding cab drivers and medical students who overstay their visa for months without charge, for example).
As far as the "even if it saves one life it's worth it" - think of how much in the way of resources are being diverted from, for example, highway improvements or the fight against cancer. About as many people as died on 9/11/01 die of cancer, EVERY SINGLE DAY - that's right, nearly 3000 people die of cancer in the US every single day (the statistics are publicly available). An even larger number die every single day from heart disease, while somewhat smaller numbers are killed by diabetes, stroke, pneumonia and major organ failure - all told, over 10,000 Americans meet their Maker every single day for whatever reason - natural or unnatural. Why does anyone have this cockamamie idea that somehow they're more likely to be killed by terrorists than by any of these things, or that fighting terrorism should be the #1 priority, when the reality is terrorism doesn't even come close by orders of magnitude in terms of risk? If we're spending all these billions of dollars in anti-terrorism measures (which, by the way, are bankrupting local and state governments, particularly during those "orange alert" periods), then shouldn't we be spending proportionately more on research and treatment against the diseases I mentioned (and dozens, perhaps hundreds more, that are much more likely to kill you than Osama's Boyz).
Many thousands of people die in motor vehicle accidents every year. If we simply banned all cars, that number would go to zero overnight. Even if it saves only one life (which it will within hours of passing the ban), isn't it worth it? I think society as a whole has decided that sometimes efficient transportation, the ability to get from one place to another, even if at slightly incremental risk, is well worth it. Not so worth it that no safety improvements need be made - this is why very good laws were passed requiring driver testing and licensing, seatbelts, impact glass, airbags, crumple zones, road and highway construction standards, and the like. And yes, you're far more likely to be killed in a car accident than in a plane crash or terrorist attack, or for that matter to be raped or murdered by some thug. But we agree that driving is an acceptable risk, a value and risk judgment we're rendered unable to make when governed by paranoia.
I, personally, feel that my right to travel without fear of unreasonable searches of my person and property, forfeiture or seizure of my assets for whatever unspecified reason, lengthy detention or interrogation without substantial cause or legal charge, and a whole host of other infringements on my basic rights, significantly outweigh the miniscule risk of being killed by al-Qaeda operatives. And the more paranoid we are, the more prominent the former become with respect to the latter.
We have surely faced down much more fearsome enemies than we face now - million-man armies, nuclear weapons, ICBMs ready to fire at a moment's notice, armies which conquered vast swaths of the planet through their own military might, power-hungry zealots with highly trained and disciplined regiments ready to take us down at all cost, and through it all we've persevered and done our best to preserve the Constitutional rights of those in this country (and when we have faltered from that cause, such as the internment of citizens of Japanese descent during WWII, or restrictions on free speech and legal rights during WWI and the Civil War, for example), the verdict of history has almost unanimously come crashing down against such measures. After all, a terror attack only affects those few that are directly involved, but changes to laws and the rollback of civil liberties affects everyone, and forever; rights, once forfeited, are rarely reclaimed.
Al-Qaeda handed us a major battlefield defeat on 9/11, as it did when it bombed the USS Cole, the WTC in 1993, the embassy bombings, on March 11 in Madrid, and a number of other occasions. We have also scored major battlefield victories against Al-Qaeda - the killing or capture of high-ranking officials such as Shaikh Omar-Abdel Rahman, Ramzi Yousef, Mohammad Atef, Abu Zubaydah, Khalid Shaikh Mohammad and Ramzi bin al-Shibh, the prevention of a number of attacks - the foiled 1995 plot of Shaikh Rahman, the foiled Millennium plot against LAX, the captures of Zacarias Moussaoui and the shoe bomber Richard Reid - the fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan, the seizure of millions of dollars in terrorist blood money. But in any war there will always be victories and defeats; what matters in the end is whose cause prevails. Ours is the cause of freedom and democracy, and the rule of law - the freedom to live in a society where you are free to govern the course of your own life, the freedom to worship, to speak, to observe, to associate, to travel as you please without unreasonable interference, the freedom to select those who represent you in government, a government which judges based on the rule of written law rather than capricious whim or force of will, and the willingness to fairly and proudly shine that beacon of freedom for all the world to see. It can then be said that truly the terrorists have lost because their goals have not been achieved.
It indeed is strange how America is freaking out over an enemy that by any standards is far weaker than ones we've faced - and defeated - in the past. I for one would be very much interested in knowing why. Maybe it's simply because 9/11 was such a preposterously lopsided battlefield defeat. Or it could be that we're unwilling to repeat the mistake of Vietnam and underestimate the enemy's capability. Or we've simply grown too complacent in our affluent society. Whatever the reason, the result is clear - America's national character, to the extent there really is such a concept, has been shown to be very deficient.
Fact is, there were individual DAYS during WWII where we lost more men than we lost altogether in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan combined! We suffered major battlefield defeats and setbacks. We also won many important victories, but there were many of both. For 4 years (6 in Europe, 8 in Asia) it was not at all certain who would win - there was no guarantee from Providence (Jerry Falwell notwithstanding) that the Allies would be victorious. In less than six months France fell to the Nazis, and Hitler had already conquered most of Europe before long. For months the Luftwaffe pounded the British Isles with everything they had - imagine if we were struck by massive terrorist attacks every single day for months on end. It was not assured that D-Day would be a success - it could well have gone down as a great military failure; Eisenhower even hedged his bets by preparing statements to be released in the event of its failure. Nobody knew whether dropping the nuclear bombs in Japan would precipitate a hastened end to the war, but it was tried and it did. Then again, maybe it might not have, and we'd have still had to fight door-to-door on the Japanese mainland, doubtless incurring hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of casualties in the process. While our cause in WWII was just, we, the Allies, the "good guys," firebombed Dresden, Tokyo and other cities, killing hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of civilians - many more than at Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. Many of the German soldiers were drafted, mere boys at that, fighting on the front, just trying to stay alive, just like our boys over there. Many of them had no connection to the Nazi regime, nor any sympathy for it. Then again, many of them did and are guilty of assisting in one of the largest and most heinous genocidal campaigns in human history. The Battle of Stalingrad, a large Russian city that could just as well be New York, Chicago or London, resulted in a siege that lasted an entire winter for the better part of a year in which several million people on both sides lost their lives. That's right, millions. I have a friend who was a POW in Germany - while the soldiers did not feed him much, they didn't have much food for themselves toward the end, and the POWs ate just about as well as the soldiers did. And stateside, there was a lot of dissent as to whether we should have gotten involved in a war across the ocean; granted, after Pearl Harbor most (though not all) of that dissent evaporated, but prior to 12/7/41, many Americans saw FDR as the type of sabre-rattler that GWB is seen as now.
Anyway, the point was that history is rarely neat and clean and full of valuable little obvious object lessons, but we like to think of it as such and try to shoehorn modern life into this neat little picture. No, everything isn't turning to chaos; it never was anything but organized chaos.
If they had embedded reporters and live news footage at many of the battles in WWII, with 24/7 talking heads and scrolling caption bars detailing every little pimple and boil, I think the doubts during WWII would have been far stronger than they were with delayed reports of casualties and media essentially limited to print and radio. Through it all - the victories, the losses, the dribbles of information - some correct, some not - trickling in, we persevered and made it through. And I do believe that in the end our cause, the cause of freedom, of democracy, of the rule of law, of organized and civilized society, of the value of diversity and tolerance, ultimately will prevail, despite setbacks and twists and turns, and the occasional ignominious battlefield defeat. I have too much faith in humanity, and our core values as Americans, to let these causes fail just because a few barbarians don't see it our way. No, the terrorists will not win - I refuse to let them win.
Ok, getting off the soapbox...
Yawn!
Oh Sorry, pardon me.
I work in EMS, and I have learned that NOTHING that comes over the radio is ever correct.
I'll decide for myself what the situation is when I get there. Then *I* will radio LEC (the Law Enforcement Center), and let them know what *I* found, and *that* will just be one more story out there on the radio.
And if anything hairy *is* happening, I move to a cell phone right away.
Most real police/military communications are handled over secure comms anyway.
Elias
Elias, you don't know the railroad, do you? Everything is done on the radio, because the radio is TAPE RECORDED. So if you want to go on the record for saying something, yell it on radio. The NTSB will listen to it later if something happened.
Secure comms? And cell phones are secure why? Maybe next time I should have one of my comms friends show you how to listen to an (analogue) cell phone using a radio scanner. And you think Cumberland has digital cell phone coverage? Oh and did I ever mention anything about the cell phone encryption using 40-bit keys (even though the standards calls for 56-bit) because the last 16-bits are always zero?
I don't know if there was a bomb on the train or not. I didn't hear the radio, and I am not involved with the investigations. Either way, it doesn't matter -- people were detained, and passengers were bused. So whoever blew the whistle did the right thing. No one will go to the trouble of detaining anybody and then busing the entire fucking train if nothing was amiss after the train was checked out.
AEM7
I did not say that cell phones were encrypted. I said that police and military operations use secure comms. Mostly now a days for the police, that means computer connections. Not as secure as all of that, but good enough for tactical purposes.
I said that I would switch to a cell phone after the initial call out. That *is* more secure that an open radio: we are allowed to give a patient's name on the phone but not on the radio, and ALL COMMUNICATIONS with LEC are recorded regardless of what line, phone, or radio I should happen to use. It is true that phone links to the hospital are not recorded, but then I'm not so sure that LEC would record them either. I suspect that State Radio *does* record all traffic on the EMS channels, but we don't use these channels much any more anyway.
Elias
If a photo ban goes into effect, I wonder if we'd still be able to take pics from there...
Well, if that bridge is OFF of NYCT property, then those workers are the ones who had better watch out.
Elias
wayne
Not to mention that many people who look Middle Eastern aren't. They could be Hispanic, or Indian, or racially mixed.
I'm sure we'll pick up at least a few undocumented illegals that way, and maybe more. Hell, you arrest any large number of people at random, and you're going to find somebody you're looking for.
In fact I can't think of a single way to cast a broader net toward catching terrorists, illegal aliens, fugitives from justice, deadbeat dads, people with overdue library books, and so on, than randomly picking names out of a phone book.
And hey - if you're innocent, you've got nothing to worry about, right?
Right?
It's funny how you mentioned that. That type of thing has already been done to cause the '00 presidential mess. A company bought out by Choicepoint(a publicly financed private big brother) was in charge of purging voter rolls; decided to be lazy by getting rid of anyone with a similar name to a felon instead of researching to see if they were 2 separate people and deleted a LOT more people than they were entrusted to.
Why stop now?
The Issue is NOT profiling. The issue is they are using the WRONG PROFILE.
They are profiling on a basis of national origin. Clearly a mistake!
Profile on the basis of BEHAVIOR, what a person is doing, and how they react to the presence of authority.
Elias
Wonderful as always, goodcow. ^-^
Your pal,
Fred
Like me.
Skip the Depends. those suckers leak bigtime. There are better brands out there. You gotta pay a little more and they are imported from Europe. But then Europeans have a lot of experience with that sort of stuff.
: ) Elias
Did they ban black and white photography as a result?
Aug. 6, 1927: Two bombs explode, one in the 28th St IRT (Lex Line) station and the 28th St (B'way) BMT station. "[The bombs] injured many persons, one of them it was believed, fatally." (NYT 8/6/1927)
Click here to see the statement below, perhaps copied word-for-word from nycsubway.org!
"August 6, 1927: Two bombs explode in two New York City subway stations, one in the 28th St IRT (Lex Line) station and the 28th St (B'way) BMT station. "[The bombs] injured many persons, one of them it was believed, fatally." (NYT 8/6/1927)"
Aug 5
Bombs at N.Y. City were exploded near midnight in the B.M.T. Subway station at Broadway and 28th St., where the men's lavatory and the change booth were wrecked, the later being blown onto the train tracks; and at the I.R.T. Subway station at 4th Ave. and 28th St., where the ticket booth was blown to pieces, the kiosk was shattered. The explosions shattered several thousands of windows and injured severely several persons.
#3 West End Jeff
http://njnj.essortment.com/madbomber_rwid.htm
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Almost heaven, Massachusetts,
Berkshire Mountains, Mys-tic River.
Life is old there, older than the boats,
Younger than the ocean, blowing like a breeze.
Transit line, take me home
To the place I belong,
Massachusetts, gridlock traffic,
Take me home, transit line.
All my mem'ries gather 'round her,
Sailor's lady, stranger to the mountains.
Dark and smoggy, painted on the sky,
Fatty taste of Red Dogs, tear-drop in my eye.
[Refrain: Transit line, take me home]
I hear her voice, in the morning hours she calls me,
The radio reminds me of my home far away.
And riding T inbound I get the feeling
that I should have been home yesterday, yesterday.
[Refrain: Transit line, take me home]
Take me home, transit line.
(For those who are uneducated: the real song.)
seek and ye shall find.
enjoy.
They say that only 40 people showed up?
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Blog
Thanks.
What is Community Crossing?
The New York Transit Museum's Community Crossing is a unique place to share original stories, written essays, oral histories, poetry, photographs and artwork about public transportation in the New York metropolitan region.
Your pal,
the other Fred
So, at least that should have made the ride more bearable!
Your pal,
Fred
For someone who doesn't intend to use puns, you certainly use a lot of them. In the majority of your posts. I think the funniest one was when you were talking about the Brighton Line by saying, 'to Brighten up the Brighton Line, no pun intended.' But I agree with you that the trip on the N during late nights and during daytime is certainly like night and day. Or if you ask me, more like heaven and hell!
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
wayne
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/200442p-173038c.html
I can see where his appearance is a sensitive issue. I wonder if passengers complained about his appearance? If the official uniform is a cap, I imagine he has a difficult case. From viewing the Sikh day parade last year, I got the impression that the Sikh's are a peace loving people.
Do the IDIOTS at Jay Street not REALIZE that a Sikh CANNOT go without the turban? It is a religious OBLIGATION! We had a similar incident with the Office of General Services in Albany about ten years ago - four Sikhs who worked the Parking garages at the Empire State Plaza were ordered to remove their "Indian Head dress" and BOY did the state rue the day. :)
I *HOPE* they sue ... and collect enough to retire now. Sikhs are NOT "towel heads" and are among the kindest, gracious and gentlest people I know, and we have a rather large community up here. How *DARE* the MTA! For all the years he has in on the road, he should be made a TSS - that'll satisfy the morons' "get him out of public view" and provide SOME justice. Lacking that though, he should be left ALONE. Let the stupidvisor who said that cool his jets as a cleaner. :(
Peace,
ANDEE
HOW DARE THEY! :(
Let's shave the Lubavitchers ... let's see how far THAT goes. This is the SAME thing. :(
For an interesting follow-up, what will they do with the non-veteran Sikhs - put them all in the yards? Will they be followed by the yarmulke-wearing Jewish members of RTO? or is Harrington being re-assigned only because his turban is just so obvious?
No, but their days off will be changed to Sunday and Monday.
Also, how does working the yard compare to working the road? Is it less pressured? Is it more dangerous?
And finally, we are reading of the repercussions on Mr. Harrington's work and life. Let's say this case gets thrown out and his right to wear the turban is affirmed, what are the repercussions on the individual(s) who brought this case? Would they have had to clear this first with the legal department, before taking action against Mr. Harrington?
I can see the connection with "wearing a turban" and being a possible enemy in some people's eyes, even though the Sikhs are not Muslims. So there is a heightened sensitivity to appearance. But this action on the part of the MTA seems to send a message of intolerance towards foreign looking people. It seems to go against the "glorious mosaic" image that their house organ TransitTransit seeks to portray.
He has been "reassigned" or "placed on modified duty" which is to a civil service employee, DISCIPLINE. You DON'T get taken off your pick UNLESS you've been disciplined. MTA determined that they couldn't put him on the STREET, but what happened is just ONE step AWAY from that. It's of THAT level of consequence. He's being PUNISHED! FORMALLY! AND, in the eyes of his peers, DISGRACED. Serious stuff! :(
SADDEST part of this is that the MTA *might* PREVAIL in this silliness! Civil Service law, depending on how carefully the stupidvisor's SUPERIORS "justified enforcement of policy" might WELL end up getting this guy FIRED since he "grieved." I'm sure I've told you enough times how the MTA was EVIL and my JOY at being terminated before I got me a GUN, but this episode is EVIL. And my emotions really ARE based on WHO'S NEXT? Hassidim? I *remember* the Reichstag. We're in times that seem to be every BIT as insane now. :(
Selkirk, you know the rules, don't you? For whatever reason, the supervisors/managers decided that they were bored with this guy, and decided to chew him out. But he *is* blatantly defying the rules. And the union contract also calls him to obey the rules, to the letter. However the two of them (employee, and manager) settle it is a private matter between the two of them and the employee's representation, i.e. the union. This will turn into a grievance case and as some have said, the MTA will probably win. Refusal to follow rules of the road is a disciplinary offence. If they didn't have this kind of rules and disciplinary procedures, there would be nothing stopping employees doing other things, like: smoking on the job, eating on the job, sleeping on the job, or even ignoring signals.
Whether the rules are fair is another matter. Rule changes can be brought about by the superintendent (who has the authority to issue special orders, even if he might not have the power to directly amend the rulebook under MTA). The MTA can dodge this bullet by simply buying an MTA Turban for him and then embossing the MTA logo on it. I don't understand why they hadn't done that. An MTA-embossed Turban along with badge number would be as reassuring for the public as an MTA cap. A non-MTA Turban does look bad, especially with the paranoia that is going around at the moment.
He's being PUNISHED! FORMALLY! AND, in the eyes of his peers, DISGRACED.
That's where I don't think you are right. No respectable union member thinks management disciplinary action is a disgrace. Most will try to fight it. I wouldn't think any less of a T/O just because he or she had been disciplined, especially if it is over something stupid like: playing a radio, not wearing the regulation shoes, or not making announcements. If anything I would think the management is stupid to bring about a discipline when a quiet word with the employee would work.
AEM7
Buddy, you and I do NOT disagree ... one EXTRA layer of complication is CIVIL SERVICE though, that comes with EXTRA rights as a result of the "Taylor law" which says, "you can ORGANIZE and COLLECTIVE BARGAIN (which is EVER so convenient for US, and provides plausible deniability to your elected officers) but you CAN'T STRIKE" ... and while I *AGREE* with you, New York State has antigravity shoes in these matters." :)
You BETCHA though, that as a former civil servant, I know *ALL* the rules. And following that political "rocks float" reality of Civil Service law HERE, I realized LONG ago that "Civil Service" is the PENULTIMATE GAME of "Simon says" ... on BOTH sides. And WOE be to those who make a move when they DIDN'T hear "Simon says" before the dangling participles of "goverspeak" whereupon they made a STUPID MOVE. Heh.
And I didn't intend to indicate the way YOU took "disgrace" ... in a CIVIL SERVICE realm, it's "LET THIS BE A LESSON TO YOU!" ... it's DIFFERENT. Going after ONE "union brother" only denigrates the rest of us - thus ANY LITTLE BATTLE is significant if it erodes our COMMON rights ... at least in GOVERNMENT service. They've taken *SO* much from us (Reagan and the Air Traffic Controllers was REALLY the slippery slope in civil service labor relations) that EVERY little battle is IMPORTANT. :(
But you're absolutely RIGHT in that TWU *cannot* win this on its merits ... the law is STACKED with exceptions in New York ("we may have the best crafted laws, but we've ALSO got the most juice" - forget WHICH politician said that, but it's TRUE) ... that's why the battle *MUST* turn POLITICAL - to the OUTRAGE OF THE PUBLIC. Rules are rules so LONG AS THEY ARE ENFORCED ... when you've got chickchit politicians though, if the WINDS OF PUBLIC OPINION turn against them, the the law? We don't NEED no stinking law. And so it goes. :(
But THIS is OUTRAGEOUS ... it COMPLETELY ignores the FREEDOM OF RELIGION on the part of the motorman. It SUPERCEDES the rule book as an act of faith in America. If the MTA wants to provide a TURBAN WITH AN MTA LOGO, *THERE* is a satisfactory compromise. AND I'd be wil;ling to bet that TWU, MOTORMAN Harrington, and everybody else could go home happy with the motorman not being impeded in his religious obligations of a TURBAN SOLELY on his head, MTA would have a logo on his forehead PROPERLY indicating "house nigger" or "own3d" as required by suits, and this WHOLE stupid episode could go away, MOTORMAN Harrington back on the 4 train and nobody unhappy facing ELECTION DAY.
But then, political hacks kicking up CHIT is *SO* much more important. One of the things *I* learned in state service was "Choose your battles CAREFULLY" ... some dickless wanker at the MTA has FAILEd to learn that valuable lesson. OFF with his head. :(
For the sake of discussion, I am going to answer this, then give your response and my follow-up. If my guess at your response is incorrect, feel free to correct it; if it is, just continue from my follow-up.
Alex L.: Yes, the contract does require us (the employees) to follow it. By that same standard, shouldn't Management also be required to follow it?
AEM7: Uh, sure. Of course it does.
Alex L.: Well then, why has it taken Management TWELVE years to get around to this particular problem? When Mr Harrington first became a Motorman, there was no uniform requirement. This problem should have been dealt with when a uniform was first required for this position (shortly after some moron found out that trains will not stay on their rails when operated at 45mph over a switch). After over a decade with no problems, why the sudden urge to remove him from public view? Past practices (a valid term from the contract) over the last twelve years show that there was no problem with Mr Harrington wearing a turban while working in the public view; therefore, there is no reason why this practice should be changed.
After the Williamsberg Bridge Wreck (or whatever the name of that bridge was) in 1995, several operating practices were changed to reflect modern rolling stock and modern crew's braking capability and skills. As a result stock was dialled down and some signal timers were changed to restrict operating speeds, and new timers were installed. Even though the crew and management have operated safely with existing practices before the wreck, the practices were changed because the wreck changed a few engineers' opinion about what is a safe speed of operation.
The 9/11 and other high profile terrorist incidents have changed the way the public views Turbans or other headgear as part of an official's uniform. Because of this, the MTA management saw fit to change the enforcement policy on an existing rule. This is well within management rights.
Examples that would constitute discrimination:
* If MTA supervisors were permitted to wear Turbans while roaming but train operators were not.
* If MTA employees were permitted to wear those Jewish hat things while roaming but Skihs were not allowed to wear Turbans.
* If disciplinary procedures were different for MTA non-uniform officers disobeying a rule compared to that for MTA uniformed officers.
Examples that do not constitute discrimination:
* If MTA provided a variety of religious headgear uniform for its employees to choose from
* If MTA imposed a blanket ban on all forms of religious clothing while on duty, including Turban, Jewish hats, and those little cross things that Catholics wear, and those stars worn by Pagans -- for all employees working in public view.
AEM7
But let's not FORGET here - it is the ***TURBAN*** that seems to be a problem, and THAT seems to be the crux of the problem. Are New York's COWARD politicos up to saying "there's no PROBLEM with that TURBAN, it's a sign of GOD?" *NOPE* ... THERE'S your problem. Uh-mericans can be shamed by NOT having the attention span of a two year old. The TURBAN IS the PROBLEM, EVER so obviously.
Can someone volunteer to wake me up for KRISTALLNACHT lest I be sleeping? :(
AMENDMENT I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
So what make you think MTA can do what Congress can't
The MTA lost this case a few years back when a few Sikh Mechanics could not wear Hard hats.
p.s. for those inclined to believe about turbans and other religious head gear, "a Turban is not what Arabs wear"
Wait? So you are saying there was a case when Sikh men refused to wear hard hats and they lost the case? So who is liable for the carnage when inevitably one of them bangs their head? So people who are non-religious don't have the freedom to choose not to wear hard hats, and people who are religious have the freedom? Don't forget, those same Sikh men have the right to choose not to work for the MTA.
OK, I'm starting my own religion. My religion requires me to wear trousers with a large pee hole exposing the penis, because I worship the Earth and it's too much of a hassle to have to unzip my flies every time I go pee.
AEM7
I must say I actually agree with aem7 on this one.
There is no overpowering public interest in having T/Os wear a standard cap in contravention of their religion. But there is a major public interest in having workmen in dangerous areas wear hard hats.
Did the MTA really lose such a case, or did they just come to some agreement? Or was it perhaps the case that they couldn't demonstrate that anyone actually needed to wear a hard hat in the shops? After all, most factories don't require hard hats.
The people who think this way are a bunch of rucking fetards who should be out stocking up on Depends.
* If MTA supervisors were permitted to wear Turbans while roaming but train operators were not.
* If MTA employees were permitted to wear those Jewish hat things while roaming but Skihs were not allowed to wear Turbans.
* If disciplinary procedures were different for MTA non-uniform officers disobeying a rule compared to that for MTA uniformed officers.
*Don't know of any turban wearing supervisors in RTO. However, have seen them in other departments - if you want to see silly, look at someone wearing a turban over a hard-hat.
*Do know of a number of employees wearing yarmulkes. Haven't heard of them being re-assigned yet, but would imagine that if a Jew were to be re-assigned due to wearinga yarmulke, the commotion would make this look like a drop in the proverbial bucket.
*Happens all the time - come work with us and experience it first hand.
How is this operator not wearing a turban going to improve trains' braking rates or the signal system? Does the turban impair vision or put him to sleep?
The 9/11 and other high profile terrorist incidents have changed the way the public views Turbans or other headgear as part of an official's uniform. Because of this, the MTA management saw fit to change the enforcement policy on an existing rule.
It's despicable to think like that. All those swarthy men must be in a conspiracy to kill us. It's also reflects ignorance. How many Sikhs have been shown to be members of the 9/11 attacks? As another poster wrote, how many of the 9/11 hijackers wore turbans as a calling card? But how many Sikhs were beaten bloody by bigots because they wore turbans?
If that was the motivation behind this move, that the public would like turban wearing men off their trains, its an almost unspeakable evil. Our country was founded on the principle that there's no religious test for public office. A biblical character asked if he was his brother's keeper. Would you make this man the keeper for all men from a large part of several continents?
This is well within management rights.
In what country? Since when can racism and bigotry justify public policy? If you really do support whats been done, you've done more than anyone to show this move was un-American if it went as you said and illegal because it was motivated by racial bias.
Examples that would constitute discrimination:
* If MTA supervisors were permitted to wear Turbans while roaming but train operators were not.
I'll do better. There are MTA train operators who have much more lax uniform requirements on the commuter railroads. Those trains operate in New York City too, their riders pay more for rides and are generally dressed in more businesslike attire. Not that flip flops and a tee shirt couldn't be worn or that there's anything wrong or right about doing so.
Examples that do not constitute discrimination:
* If MTA provided a variety of religious headgear uniform for its employees to choose from
I am uncomfortable with that. The MTA should move people and not be in the religious headgear business. Its a compromise but I dont know if people should be so happy about the MTA trying to design skullcaps.
* If MTA imposed a blanket ban on all forms of religious clothing while on duty, including Turban, Jewish hats, and those little cross things that Catholics wear, and those stars worn by Pagans -- for all employees working in public view.
What is "religious" clothing? The vice of this ban is the same as the new French law. It allows me to wear a turban because I think it makes women go wild for me but not because my religion requires it. And what about "public view"? If someone can see the turban through the door hinges when they try to see how fast the train is going on its super express run so that they can post about here then is that "public view"? A member of the public saw it. Is that your test? If a non-MTA employee sees him at his yard's parking lot wearing a turban is that a violation? The funny thing is that its women in some of those Arab countries who can't wear what they want in public view.
What if I want to show my patriotism by wearing a flag pin? That may reflect a lot of devotion but if I drove an MTA bus and riders could see it would I be in trouble? What if an operator wears an "atheisteque" designer watch? Shoes whose sale funds the local convent? What if my body is my temple and I wear tight clothing to show off my physique? If you can make out the star of David imprint beneath my shirt if you look closely at my pecs does that get me in trouble? If I wear a belt made of coins saying "in God we trust" is that outlawed?
These are stupid questions of course but they accompany policies that haven't been fully thought out.
subfan
Indeed, my monks cowl is also an appropriate head covering if I should enter a temple or synagoge, but actually, I would just put on a guest's yarmulke instead. No point in being that different if you are visiting someone elses place of worship.
Elias
How about a toupee?
subfan
But the guy an "I am OWN3D TURBINE" and let him go DO his intervals. :(
The GLARING stupidity of this cannot be reduced. What if it were KOPTICS? Would they require that observers cover the "Head Tefillin" with a "proper uniform cap" as well? Persecute ONE religion and you've persecuted them ALL. And WHAT about an MTA logo directed to the head, heart and hand? :(
While REPUBLICANS go wobbly-kneed over "Mark of Satan according to REVELATION, then what is *THIS* by comparison" ... oh WAIT, we HAVE republicans already. They already KNOW this is an outrage. Oh WAIT again, them's TOWELHEADS and NOT Americans. :-\
Anybody GETTING my outrage yet? :(
how does working the yard compare to working the road? Is it less pressured? Is it more dangerous?
Depends on the individual. Personally, I would rather do almost anything than work a yard job for months on end. When I go down the road, I know that I'm the only person who can screw me over. Working in the yard, there are too many things that can go wrong over which I have no control, but which will result in the probelm being my fault/responsibility.
what are the repercussions on the individual(s) who brought this case? Would they have had to clear this first with the legal department, before taking action against Mr. Harrington?
Repercussions? Probably along the line of "Better luck next time."
Since I don't know from whence this idiotic idea came, I don't know who OKed it, if anyone. Ideally, it should have gone through Labor Relations, who would probably have rubber-stamped it as "Good Idea - worth trying." If Mr Harrington does win in a court case, the Legal Dep't might have something to say, depending on how much it costs.
I disagree. Allowing a worker to wear religiously required headgear, while he or she otherwise wears the standard uniform, is a reasonable accommodation that should be allowed if for no other reason than simple fairness.
Second) He has not worn the turban for 23 years. He's been with the TA for 23 years and converted to the Sikh Religeon some time later.
Third) This is not the first or the only such case that has either been arbitrated or is pending arbitration.
Try to keep your 'facts' somewhat factual.
Since that time, a uniform requirement has been imposed on Train Operators, and its enforcement can get a little hairy at times on the part of supervisors and management (e.g. we would get questions as whether employees can wear summer weight pants in the winter [not the winter issue, you see]).
Anyway, back at least in 1995 the issue of religious headwear began to become an issue as the workforce became more multicultural. At that time the RTO Labor Relations position was that employees would be accomodated, as long as they abided by the Rule Book. The operative rule was the former 10f (I don't have the new Rule Book in front of me) which said that uniformed employees were not permitted to wear "other insignia . . . , except by permission of the Authority."
Not knowing the facts behind this case, and seeing as how the summer uniform bulletin has recently been reissued, it appears that this may be a case where some (real) higher up in RTO finally noticed our Sikh Train Operator and pushed to have the rule book enforced to the letter: no prior permission, then out of uniform. The fact that this has not been an issue all these years with line supervision and management is telling.
But GOER's going to look into this case just the same ...
As I stated yesterday, there are exceptions. This is one of them.
BTW: I will have a new surprise for Subtalk tomorrow afternoon, just in time for the June 19th SMEE trip.
Crisis? Please. This guy is not in any "crisis". Clothing issues do not constitute a "crisis". Religion should have no bearing on what opportunities a person shall encounter. And no individual has the right to impose their religion on others. I'm for getting this guy moved from the T/O seat. It sounds like he wants to FORCE others around him to "notice his religion". I don't really care to know that much about any stranger. On your own time, who cares what you do? But when you're on the job...if the job has a uniform...wear the uniform. Or quit.
The Chief Motor Instructor predated Methods and Procedures. He shared the old Labor Relations Room outside the Command Center with the Chief Trainmaster.
Position was eliminated in the Gunn era when everyone was made Superintendents, and Mike B. was forced to retire. Later they discovered they still needed that position, if not title, and created Methods and Procedures, since morphed into some other silly acronym.
Prior to these political ideologues, the PRIMARY task in civil service was getting the job done PROPERLY, EFFICIENTLY and EFFECTIVELY. NOW all that seems to matter is pressed ties and the old AOL axiom, "what are U wearing?" Geez.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/201058p-173531c.html
I would like to praise the MTA for reversing the reassigment of Motorman Harrington.
I brought it also to Spitzer's office, but in the end I think the MTA has come to the appreciation that the "Second floor" trumps the beakies every time. This WHOLE episode should never have happened in the first place. I hope a lesson was learned. (grin)
http://www.wnbc.com/traffic/3398641/detail.html
As someone in here ends their posting:
"Untill Next Time!"
I was on that number 4 on 9/11, as I mentioned in an earlier post in another branch of this thread. I tried to draw the attention of the Daily News to T/O Harrington's actions on that day with a letter to the editor, but it does not seem to have made it into print. Too bad.
(I also posted a full account of the 9/11 underground experience a day or two after it happened, and in one of the follow-ups, I mentioned that the T/O was wearing a Sikh turban - you should be able to find it in the archives if your interested.)
subfan
(I also posted a full account of the 9/11 underground experience a day or two after it happened, and in one of the follow-ups, I mentioned that the T/O was wearing a Sikh turban - you should be able to find it in the archives if your interested.)
I remember that acount. It was quite a story, and most definitely showed a lot of courage on the crew's part.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=263471
subfan posted:
"...the [T/O] was a Hindu or Sikh from India with a large turban (no racism intended; just describing the guy in case anyone from the TA knows who he is)..."
to which grimace 1169 replied:
"I know that T/O. He looks like a swami. Perculiar thing is I think he is white. Sounds like he did a good job. Self preservation."
Yup; I'd say it's the same guy. Way to go, TA; what a way to treat a true hero.
subfan
(This statement is issued in memory of President Reagan)
(This statement is issued in memory of President Reagan)
The gipper delivered it better :)
Yeah, right. I wonder what impact the Gipper had on Russia when he made his outlaw comment about Russia? :)
Interestingly enough, I didn't see him after that for almost two years, and when I finally did see him, it was on the morning of the 2003 blackout! Of course, I had no idea when I saw him that the blackout would occur that afternoon, but I guess that guy just isn't my good luck charm, is he. :-)
subfan
Don't mind me, this is a VERY SERIOUS case of religious persecution, plain and simple, cut and dried. :(
BTW, I am positive it is the same guy; I recognized the picture that was with the article.
subfan
I've had it up to here with the Jerry Fallwell neocon moron mentality and THIS case just sums it up. Don't mind me, I'm CATHOLIC and had to endure these smarmy bastards with their "priest molestation" qwap when the numbers suggest that THEIR VERY OWN have priests beat HANDS DOWN in that respect. I almost understand WHY muslims all over the planet want to take us out with these damned CRUSADERS and their false God of money want to neuter EVERY religion except their golden calf. :(
I think it will be settled by the grievance procedures that the MTA and courts provide... He has been operating for many years dressed as he is... From subfan's report, he is an experienced and very competent motorman.
Let's hope that substance and skill will prevail over appearances.
I was happy to hear you confirm that the Sikh's are known to be a gentle, peaceful people.
http://www.wnbc.com/traffic/3389570/detail.html
Do most motormen wear a TA cap? Are they required to wear a cap at all times?
I say, let some of those suit-covered anuses kick down a few trip arms, rub elbows with a relay cabinet, and do some UNDERCAR ... THEN let's see how much their dry cleaner wants to resurrect "the suit of prestige" for them. IF the MTA wants to go for "dress code," then let's see SUITS go undercar for the next set of 12-9's and see how their suit holds up.
Again, please forgive me - Unca Selkirk spent a LIFETIME refusing to do "dress code" once he was freed from having to ride in the back of the train instead of UP FRONT with the white people. :)
This question reminds me of that old post WWII saying that begins: First they came for the Jews, but I'm not Jewish, so I did nothing; Then they came for the but I'm not... ...and finally they came for me, and there was no one left to do anything.
It IRKS me ... AS a Catholic in today's "Shrub speaks to Jesus on the telephone" mentality, I'm concerned. Gravely.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread51431/pg1
Oh, I was just responing to what you said about station agents:
At least in Stations, agents are not required to hear a uniform cap at all times. But if an agent chooses not to hear one, they are not to wear any other cap.
But anyway, I can't see anything wrong with management banning "unofficial" caps. I do see a problem with them deciding religious headgear, be it veils or turbans, etc, are not to be allowed.
Nobody is saying the guy doesn't do a good job. But he's being a ball buster nonetheless.
I am Catholic, and would see no reason to wear a priest outfit to work. Cathlolics have not required religious gear, and similarly, there is no type of article of clothing they are not allowed to wear.
I don't think I would ever see a nun-outfit or a priest outfit in the cab of a train, because one, only nuns or priests wear Cathlic religious gear, two, why would a priest or nun have a job as a T/O, and three, even then, nuns are not required to wear the habit (even if in church). They can wear civilian (but conservative) close in public, even if they had a job as a T/O for some bizarre reason.
Your pal,
Fred
To earn an income of course.
It is true that most priests work for the diocese, or for a religious order, and all brothers and sisters are only in religious orders, but there are religious orders that do require that their members work to support the order.
Monks are of this sort. Monks are self-supporting and do not depend on the alms of the people or of the church. Most monks (also priests and sisters) who work outside of the monastery today are teachers, chaplains, or in health care, but there is no reason why they ought not work in other professions as well.
I knew a Franciscan Priest who was a ships master, that is the captain of a Naval Ship (USNS Supply Ship).
I myself have worked in the local hospital as an RN and still do work on the ambulance as an RN and an EMT. Other monks at our abbey are farmers, gardeners, pastors, teachers, professors, mechanics, and more.
Indeed when I started in nursing, I wore a white priet's shirt with a Roman collar. Later I followed the trend in nursing and wore scrubs. Today, I wear "whatever" which usually is a pair of black police tactical pants. (Gotta love those pockets!)
There are some ultra conservative creatures who would insist on wearing the habit at all times, but those sorts are on the fringes of religion, probably could not get into a regular order, or have such schismatic beliefs that they are no longer in good standing with the bishop or with Rome.
But this is not the case with other religions. And while I was unaware until now of the issues about the turban, it is given the context of the Sikh culture, an appropriate cover and aperal for which employers MUST give consiteration.
Employers MUST make accomodations to employees with disablities, so also MUST employers make reasonable accomodations to persons of faith.
Elias
So , no there is nothing religious that would require Catholics from not obeying the MTA's rules . Now if the MTA would be forcing it's employees to eat meat or force them to not fast on Good Friday or something , maybe then we'd have something to protest about .
I can't fathom what "ntrainride's" malfunction is, I see NO problem with people of a faith wearing the mandatory garb while on duty. I draw the line at EVANGELIZING TO THE PUBLIC while on duty. And as long as the bible thumpers are allowed to roam the subways and not be shot at, I see no problem with "faithful" of ANY religion doing their thing in peace and quiet.
Anyhoo, I'm glad the madness has ended and Mr. Harrington is back serving the PUBLIC properly again. :)
No this is NOT so. It is a *left-wing* misnomer and misinterpretation of the facts. There is NO SUCH RULE as "Separation of Church and State." That line was a Thomas Jeferson speech that has no force of law whatsoever.
The first amendment states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
So a law or regulation restricting the free exercise of religion is unconstitutional.
Returning to the idea of separation of church and state: modern Americans have no clue as to the history and the ramifications that were the root cause of this concept. In midevil Europe, kings were crowned by the Pope, so that kings could rule by "devine right", and also because the social structure of the time was so fragmented that the church was the only unifying structure extant.
As years went on and Kings began to exercise power over whole countries, they demanded the right to appoint bishops and abbots. Remember that in the fudeal system, land was wealth, and the only land owners were the king and his nobles, and the church and it's abbeys. Bishops and Abbots were required to provide armies from their pool of serifs just as other landowners were.
Later, after the Protestant Reformation, the peoples of a kingdom were expected to be of the same religion as the King. Peoples fled the persecutions of the Kings and of the Church.
So we come to America, where religious freedom is ENSURED BY LAW IN THE CONSTITUTION, and MAY NOT BE REGULATED or RESTRICTED. *That* is your separation of church and state. Just that and nothing more.
Elias
Again, I wish people would mature to the point where they could be spiritual without all the symbols.
Your pal,
Fred
...When I was a chiuld, I thought like a child...
A true spiritual maturaty is something that few people achieve. Instead they cling to the"religion of their youth." It matters not if it was smells and bells, or whatever. Religion is for most a fetish that they cling to rather than a way of life that they grow in.
But this cannot be changed. And it is wrong not to accomodate those who have not been able to grow.
Then again... Religion is like a vintage R-9 with its open fans, bare bulbs, and white enamel straps. The whine of the bull and pinion is music in the ears. So much of the human mind is devoted to memory, that we would not be truly human without it.
Most Catholics still think that the Rosary is an OFFICIAL prayer of the church. (It is not. it is a well founded and somewhat universal private devotion, but official it is not.) But one of the official prayers of the church *is* the "Liturgy of the Hours" or Divine Office, but most Catholics have never ever even heard of it let alone know anything about it.
So faith operates on many levels (as do railfans), and maturity in either is rather unreasonable.
Elias
It's about you as a person and your values and how you live your life that should determine your relationship with however you want to relate to your god .
People only follow religions the way they were brought up (with exceptions or course) . The way their parents told them it was and how they learned to worship .
People can say whatever they want , but even so , the most devote Jew would be kneeling on a bench in church on Easter Sunday just as soon as a devout Catholic would be wearing a yamickle if THAT was what his parents told him to do and the way he was raised .
From dictionary.com (not the best dictionary, but it will do):
re·spect ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-spkt)
tr.v. re·spect·ed, re·spect·ing, re·spects
1. To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
2. To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
3. To relate or refer to; concern.
What you outline very clearly is what is referred to as the "Free Excercise clause", or the second part of the First Amendment's mention of religion. You however gloss the Establishment Clause.
The government, using the simple definitions above, may not show deference for any particular religion or religious establishment (eg: a national church, and up until recently [though no court case has tested it] providing money to religious entities), may not interfere with a religion, or may not have direct references to or relationships with one.
If that is not the seperation of church and state, I do not know what is. And that is using a fairly strict constitutional interpretation.
This isn't the best website in the world, but a quick google site did bring up this, which over a quick glance provides some basic analysis:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/estabinto.htm
Now, of course, there is a lot of room for interpretation over exactly what "respecting an establishment of relgion" includes and how broad it is, but to claim that there is no seperation of church and state ordered in the constitution is incorrect.
Absolutely correct . And why would they complain ? Because unless you are a priest , you don't have to wear what a priest would wear . There is no religious clothing that must be worn if you are Catholic , so there would be no reason to wear anything but your uniform if you were a train operator . Even bishops don't have to wear their headwear all the time . So if a bishop was a TO (please) , even he wouldn't have a religious reason to HAVE to wear his bishop hat while driving the train , so there would no reason to complain if the MTA told him not to wear it . He would simply take it off .
I'm just askin...
It may seems hard for most people to understand, but I guess if you follow the religion it is important.
I'll even extend it: are we to be assured as a public vehicle rider that our expectations of the veracity and assumed competence of the operating staff are to be enhanced by the knowledge that some of those staff are in such a need of announcing to us all what it is exactly they believe in that said staff are willing to wear their religious-specific symbolic clothing accessories whilst performing their required duties, to the extent that they wish to present an appearance that is not in accordance with what is standard for the majority of those employees performing similar duties?
I'm having a lot of trouble understanding your question, but if you're saying what I think you are, there really should be no connection between competence and attire.
This man was a 9/11 *hero* who saved a trainload of souls that fateful day. I suppose that doesn't matter either. :-\
Or so you think.....
: )
Hahaha! Well, I guess being cooped up in a little booth (we need the railfan windows of course) all day going through dark tunnels, your mind has got to wonder. And what better thing to think about than "man's favorite subject". Without the necessary parts anymore though, I guess that would cetainly be one important topic off the list and you would be less apt to daydreaming about tonight's possible encounter instead of thinking about that 10 car marker you should be stopping at.....
In an ideal world possibly, but that doesn't jibe with the real world as we know of it. Think of it this way. People expect a train operator to "look like" a train operator. Just like a fireman, or a nurse, or a cop, or a doctor. That p.o.v. is not against any personal beliefs. Instead, it confirms the validity of maintaining a position-associated appearance. It has been shown to be a useful tool in maintaining a level of respect those positions demand.
That's all. I can't agree that confounding that p.o.v. is a defensible activity. Perhaps I'm not being sensitive. Tough. If the dude was refused a ride on that same train for wearing a turban that's entirely different. I'd be up in arms about it.
And JUST to prove my point ... would they arrest SANTA CLAUS on a TRACTOR too? :)
Lawns are constructed much flatter, using much finer grass species. They are cut using a cylinder mower (blades rotate on a horizontal axis against a knife edge, rather than relying on blade speed and inertia to cut the grass) which has a heavy roller at the back, giving the grass the characteristic stripy look of a lawn.
Grass species that make good lawns have problems surviving the winters in this part of the world unfortunately.
I know this because I spend far too many summers growing up cutting our lawns–and redoing them because the stripes weren’t even!
Presently we are being entertained by a fleet of biodegradable lawnmowers just outside of our dining room window. Br. Placid stings a single bare wire along some inuslated posts, applies some voltage, and then opens the cow-gate down by the barn. The bovines moosey on up, and in a few days the grass is all trimmed AND fertilized!
[That Rudolph - ever since he was elected president of the RBB (Reindeer & Beast of Burden Union) he has become a real radical. ]
The man *is* an American citizen, born in this country.
His patriotism is NOT at issue, and his LOVE for America is NOT at issue.
What is at issue is a *religious* issue, in a land where "The Government shall make no laws regarding religion" is a constitutional right.
This motorman apparently has a stellar record, and has been allowed by way of a tacit exception to wear his truban for the past 20 years. That the TA has tacitly agreed to this exception for the past 20 years foregoes them the right to make an issue of it at this time.
It is the TA that is clearly in the worng, and it must make ammends to this man for its own stupidity.
Elias
The CRUSADES ended CENTURIES ago ... and while America rails against Muslims wanting to bring the Middle East back to the triple-digits AD, here we have SHRUBBERIES and their MTA ilk wanting to throw us back even FURTHER in evolution. :(
Once again all, sorry for making this point, but I fear few others would have ... after all, Sikhs are JUST towelheads like all the others as far as republicans are concerned. Biff and Bunny Burbia RULEZ, all else LOZE. :(
The REAL TERRORISTS must be loving this one!!!
I'm a Christian and if my job required me to wear a 'Jesus is stupid' t-shirt or a 'the Bible is Bogus' pin I would gladly look for another job.
Political correctness is going crazy in this country. You can't offend anyone or step on anyones feelings or 'rights' without them making a federal case of it.
http://fact.trib.com/
So if Joe Blow's religion says he can kill Americans at will - AKA the Taliban - then that's OK?
The Taliban isn't a religion, and killing infringes on the killee's constitutional right to life.
A TA spokesman confirmed that Harrington had been told he could wear only the official cap and not his turban while ferrying passengers, but declined to comment further.
The MTA waived its rights on this issue 20 years ago. They can not change the rules regarding this man now.
Elias
Without consideration of the merits of this case or similar ones that are also pending arbitration - Why can't an organization change rules? Companies and agencies do it all the time. Where is it written?
The other objection is that the operator should be able to wear a turban. On free expression grounds that doesn't fly but on religious freedom grounds it might. The threat to both is huge. Just like the French banning "conspicuous" crucifixes in addition to other religious headgear when worn for "religious" purposes. What's "conspicuous" /"religious"?
MTA *has* no legal standing for their decision, and SHOULD the aggrieved go to the "next level," *WOE* be the MTA ... WOE. :(
Last I checked, as a BRONX BOY myself, Kevin Harrington IS a NYS resident, and ENTITLED to estoppel as determined by INACTION of the Court of Appeals in the original IDENTICAL issue brought before the court. THEY refused to wear "caps" in place of the turban TOO. And old "Crusty but benign" Judge TITONE ALSO agreed. :)
Leave the law to the lawyers, Kevin. There are exceptions to estoppel and one my apply here (although off the top of my head, none would).
That's actually a good compromise. You wanna wear a Turban? We'll give you an MTA-authorized one, complete with spray-painted on badge number.
Precisely this happens in the UK. Sikh men employed on public transport - or as police officers - wear a turban in the appropriate uniform colour, with a badge pinned on the front, and everyone is happy.
Then there is the one about Sikhs and compulsory crash-helmets for motorcyclists.......
;-)
BTW, Sikhs are not Muslim, so any bigotry aimed at them based on that fact is misplaced.
Funny but true story - a number of Muslim girls in France have gotten around the ban on headscarves in public schools by enrolling in Catholic schools, which have no problem with allowing them.
Oh great! Muslims girls going to school, being taught Catholic dogma. Only in France ...
A lot fewer issues than the proposed photo ban. The Constitution establishes freedom of religion. It doesn't establish freedom to take pictures on public authority property.
This one should be a no-brainer for the ACLU to handle. There is no possible public safety issue NYCT could bring up after 20 years of allowing him to wear his turban.
He just deserves to have his job back!!!!
The MTA would be better served by giving him his job back......if only cos, from what I've read in this thread, he sounds like a damm good T/O with experience....sounds like someone who knows how to keep it cool "under fire".
He never lost the job in the first place.
His.....assignment....or whatever!!!
He just sounds like the kind of experinced T/O that I'd like operating a train I was on!!!
ps.....then again...that "voice of reason" guy could jump into this thread & try to sell us on the fact ATO doesn't come with "head ware"!
Jimmymc25
Yes he did loose his job.
He did not loose his employment.
But in railroadese, your "Job" the, the job (or run) that you bid on.
He won his bid, and has te right to that "job" or train.
Elias
#3 West End Jeff
The article at the Indian website said that the motorman refused to wear his MTA cap over his turban. It sounded like that was a compromise being offered him. I wonder if the paper got that right, as that aspect hasn't appeared here or in the papers.
http://www.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=40164&cat=World
Newsday has an opinion piece that says that religious freedom should supercede concerns about appearance. They also cited some cases involving NYPD and traffic agents who wore turbans and a beard.
http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-vpsik083840105jun08,0,3444621.story?coll=ny-editorials-headlines
That was only in reference to the three female Muslim bus operators at the end of the article.
That's not how I read the first paragraph. It sounds identical to the final paragraph about the 3 bus drivers.
"According to the paper, at least three Muslim bus drivers were ordered to wear TA caps over their religious headdresses. When they refused they were given assignments moving buses between garages."
The only thing missing in the first paragraph is that he is being given assignments moving trains in the yards...
Personally, I think all religious symbols are just that: symbols. Haven't humans matured to the point where they can keep their spirituality on a purely spiritual level? Guess not, cuz they all have 'the gear' which has to be worn.
That's just my personal dos pesos, and I fully understand that being a good American means sticking up for things you may think are silly merely because someone else really believes in them, harmful activities excepted.
So...let the guy wear his hat and let's get on to new business.
Your pal,
Fred
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/10/nyregion/10matters.html
Peace,
ANDEE
I myself am surprised that there isn't a "1 Diamond" service instead, operating rush-hour express service on that third track in the middle. How would passengers feel, for example, if the 7 Diamond-Express service were turned to skip-stop? Not pleased, I bet . . .
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Given that capital funds aren't infinite, I'm not sure where this should rank in relation to other desirable projects. For instance, I suspect the Rogers Junction reconfig (same problem) would probably benefit more people.
However, since this is subtalk, and we aren't limited to budgets, service would benefit if we returned to the old arrangement, with local and express service both to upper Broadway and to Lenox.
In the absence of that, maybe some of the 1's can be turned at 137th Street.
Since other subtalkers have mentioned the uselessness of express service on upper Broadway, does anyone know why the tracks were initially laid out the way they were, with no express stops?
I think they were always intended to be for non-revenue moves in/out of the yard at the northern end of the line.
The obvious solution is to send all East Side trains to Utica and New Lots. The removal of the bottleneck on West Side service would allow more West Side trains to serve Flatbush. Passengers traveling between Flatbush and the East Side would have an easy cross-platform transfer at Franklin -- a much easier transfer than most other passengers have to reach the East Side.
But I agree that it can be a problem in practice. So that's the junction that should be fixed up first. Followed by Utica southbound, where a switch from express to local should be installed before the station, so some express trains can run to New Lots without getting stuck behind terminating expresses.
I don't have much tolerance for such problems. Adequate basic service comes first.
Keep posting until 2025 or so, when the signals on the west side IRT have to be replaced. If it is to be done, that is the time to do it, and we can all write in at that time.
Having a local and express off each line is the right service pattern. That would allow express service in the peak direction in three track sections.
The deal is that trains from Broadway run on the outside tracks and trains from Lenox Avenue run on the inside tracks. Anything else requires switching which will make a big cut in total tph.
Skip it. This is as good as it is going to get without major huge influxes of money.
Elias
Those going to Times Square would save four minutes, assuming no switching delays.
Those going to 59th Street or 50th Street, two very popular destinations, would lose however much time they had to wait for the local. And the platforms at 72nd Street get mighty hot, so it isn't even a comfortable wait.
Don't assume that everyone is bound for an express station.
As for the switching delays, they'd probably force a reduction in service all around. So headways and crowding would increase all around.
What they're studying is turning every 9 train into a 1 train. There would be the same number of trains, but each one would make all stops. If you live at a skipped stop, your rush hour service would double. If you live at an all-stop station near the north end of the line, your rush hour trip would be a couple of minutes slower. Otherwise, you wouldn't much care either way. All told, the argument for killing the #9 train is pretty compelling. Skip-stop service on this line hurts more people than it helps.
I myself am surprised that there isn't a "1 Diamond" service instead, operating rush-hour express service on that third track in the middle.
The middle track on that line cannot reasonably be used for express service. There are no stations where the middle track can platform. The "express" trains would have to merge back onto the local track to make stops, which would actually slow down the line. Also, many of the missed stations are more popular than the ones that would be served. Look at the track map and try to design this service, and you'll see the problem. It would hurt more people than it would help.
How would passengers feel, for example, if the 7 Diamond-Express service were turned to skip-stop?
The middle track on the #7 was designed for express service. There are several stations along the line where all three tracks can platform. There are none along the #1/9 line.
Also, the Main St terminal on the #7 is the 9th busiest station in the subway system; giving those passengers an express option to Manhattan makes sense. Junction Blvd, another express stop, is the 46th busiest in the system, which is considerably higher than any 1/9 stop north of 96th.
The 242 St terminal of the #1/9 is the 237th busiest in the system; giving those passengers an express option doesn't make nearly as much sense, as you'd have to take quite a bit of service away from others to do it.
Once you get below 96th, the junction there is the problem.
Look at 125/Lex. There's a nice flexible interlocking there, but in practice, Pelham trains all run local in Manhattan and WPR/Jerome trains all run express in Manhattan. Why? Probably to avoid inevitable merging delays, which would be a capacity bottleneck.
Merging delays would be nearly as problematic on the West Side as on the East. I suspect that 96/Broadway would be straight-railed even if not dictated by track layout. And while on the East Side, it's not clear (to me) why Pelham trains should necessarily become the locals and WPR/Jerome trains should necessarily become the expresses, it's quite clear on the West Side that the current service pattern makes more sense than the alternative.
A few years ago, I analyzed the skip-stop situation in detail, using 2000 fare registration counts, stacking the odds in favor of skip-stop wherever possible. Despite the stacked odds, I concluded that the average passenger loses more time with 1/9 skip-stop than without. I can dig up the details if you'd like.
The local stops between 96 and 137 are very busy -- much busier than the stations north of 137. Contrast that to the 7, which has an ultra-busy terminal, or to the 6, whose Bronx local stops are by and large quite desolate. In both of those cases, demand for stops near the end of the line is much greater than demand for the inner stops, so express service makes sense. But on the 1, demand is much greater on the inner stops. Trying to mimic the service patterns of the 6 or 7 on the 1 would yield mostly empty expresses passing crush loaded locals.
3 Avenue-138 Street 1,727,620
Brook Avenue 1,656,656
Cypress Avenue 863,821
E 143 Street-Saint Mary's St 278,303
E 149 Street 1,174,670
Longwood Avenue 865,496
Hunts Point Avenue 2,820,144
Whitlock Avenue 401,770
Elder Avenue 1,781,601
Morrison-Soundview Avenues 1,862,878
Saint Lawrence Avenue 1,113,661
Parkchester-E 177 Street 4,119,632
Castle Hill Avenue 1,940,332
Zerega Avenue 560,347
Westchester Square-E Tremont Avenue 1,494,067
Middletown Road 405,190
Buhre Avenue 681,302
Pelham Bay Park 1,591,110
Some local stations do have ok numbers (two even have more ridership than one of the 3 "express" stations)
Turn your attention to the 1. While the local stations between 96 and 137 aren't quite as busy as the ones south of 96, they're pretty close -- a lot closer than the Bronx 6 local stations. North of 137, ridership begins to drop off quickly. The local stations between 96 and 137 need nearly as much service as the local stations south of 96, so if there is an express, it would have to be infrequent. At the same time, it would serve a relatively small ridership. So why bother? Incidentally, there does seem to be substantial ridership between points north of 137 and local stops south of 137, so splitting service Parkchester-style is probably best avoided.
We have looked at this many times, and have come to the conclusion that it is not possible with the present plant.
The problem is that you cannot turn a train at 137th Street, since it would take so long to fumigate one train that you would hold up two more.
That there needs to be a better way to turn trains at 137th Street, there is no doubt, but it will be a costly fix. My solution is to make a loop under the 137th Street yard, make it revenue trackage (so that fumigation is not necessary) and that way a (9) train could short-turn there while the (1)s went on to VC Park.
But that is a BIG project, and is not on the horizon.
Elias
I can almost hear the squealing on that loop you're talking about, and I'm over 350 miles away.
Maybe what's being applied to using 137th Street as an intermediate terminal is the kind of TA thinking that requires shutting down a line for days on end to replace light bulbs or ties and rails on places like the Manhattan Bridge when it used to be done without interrupting service.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Safety and legal liability standards have changed. Get over it.
Maybe what's being applied to using 137th Street as an intermediate terminal is the kind of TA thinking that requires shutting down a line for days on end to replace light bulbs or ties and rails on places like the Manhattan Bridge when it used to be done without interrupting service.
It would be interesting to know the time frame you're thinking about. The subway system went decades (1950s-70s) without adequate maintenance. Is this the era for which you have such nostalgia?
On the business of service interruptions, I was talking about the 1940s and 1950s--the maintenance problems really started when large numbers of experienced people left under early retirement provisions put into effect in the mid- to late-1960s. The TA seems to have avoided hiring or training enough replacement workers for a long time. Also, since the City was paying for subway cars then, it was easier for the TA for the City to buy new than to repair.
Extended diversions were uncommon--once in a while, something like reballasting on Fourth Avenue meant that expresses only operated in one direction during midnight hours but extended diversions weren't part of operating.
I mentioned the Manhattan Bridge because I can remember watching track work from the front of trains in the 1950s.
BTW, I'm not being nostalgic--I'm simply wondering why so much time seems to be necessary to do maintenance and why diversions or shut-downs are so common. When the Flushing Line had its 1950s electronics installed (those big circular devices on car ends), I don't think they shut down the line for weekend after weekend.
If I were going to be nostalgic, I'd mention how the IRT built express tracks on three of the el lines in the 1910s without interrupting service or how fast the Broadway bridge was replaced.
It might be interesting to see what the employee injury and death statistics are from, say, 1956 compared with 2003.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
That isn't quite true. With a bunch of platform C/R's, there would be enough time -- but that's an additional expense.
We can't turn trains at 137. Why? Because we have to fumigate. So? It takes too long and will mess up service, and we have to do it. Well, why don't you just relay without fumigating? Because we have to fumigate. I know that, but why don't you just turn the thing around without fumigating? Because we have to fumigate. End of story.
This reminds me of that scene from _This is Spinal Tap_, in which one of the band members is explaining how their speakers go up to 11 instead of 10 - the louder, the better. After all, 11 is louder than 10! And this one goes to 11! Well, why not make 10 a little louder, so you don't need an 11? But this one goes to 11! I know, but make a new dial with 10 being as loud as 11 is on the current dial. But this one goes to 11! End of story.
Why? Why is fumigation so sacrosanct? What is the argument proffered in favor of this that is so esteemed that simple but profound improvements in service are discarded without consideration?
It was brought to you by the same people who are trying to ban photography.
It's less of a concern on a loop like City Hall, since the T/O doesn't have to get up and go anywhere, which is probably why City Hall was allowed to be made into an exception.
For that matter, why are they pulling station agents from the booth and turning them into roving customer service reps - after all, some nut job could rape or kill them, now that they don't have the protection of the booth.
What about consists without transverse cabs at the C/R's operating position, so the C/R has to move between two adjacent cars to open the doors on either side?
Or the hell with transit workers - why don't I just whip out a gun and start mowing down passengers, a la Colin Ferguson on the LIRR. Or if guns aren't my thing I could do a machete job like the guy from the SI Ferry back in 1986 (who was ultimately put down by a retired police officer with a civilian carry permit), or some poison gas like Aum Shinrikyo in the Tokyo subway.
What a load of BS.
Or, a completely different way is to have a second T/O waiting at the rear end of the incoming platform. When the train pulls in, the second T/O gets on and goes into the rear cab. The train proceeds onto the relay track, operated by the front T/O. Then the train goes into reverse, with the second T/O taking over at this point. The train pulls back into the station on the opposite track, the first T/O gets out and positions himself for the next train's arrival (just as the second T/O did a few minutes ago after arriving on this train's leader), and the train proceeds as before with the second T/O at the helm. The first T/O steps into the rear car of the next train and takes over after the reversal. Eliminates that whole pesky problem of having the solitary T/O walk the length of the entire train in that desolate tunnel, and increases efficiency substantially.
I suspect "fumigation" has become a kind of mantra for MTA officialdom and its original justification has been forgotten.
Probably, although the union also might support it.
We could also have trains go back and forth along unused center and express tracks, and the severed portion of the Nassau Loop, just going back and forth OOS without making stops (while the crew gets paid, of course).
What are they doing?
Oh, umm, they're, umm, de-icing the tracks.
In 90 degree weather?
Hey, you never know...
Considering that there was no regular fumigation during the half-century plus before the 'Saturday night bath' yielded to daily showering in the 1950s, why is fumigation necessary now?
I never heard that trains stored in Coney Island Yard overnight got infested with sand fleas during all those decades.
Just wondering,
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Humans - the true pests of the underground... the bugs and rats are just looking for something rancid to eat and a filthy place to sleep...
Basically, sir, your staement is correct.
Obviously some trains still do terminate at 137th Street, for they are taken out of service there, but this occurs later in the evening, when traffic begins to slacken off.
The problem is that today you must fumigate the trains before they go into the yoard or into a relay track. That is the train crew must assure that everybody is off of the train before it leaves the station. It would take ten men with rubber hoses to clear a train of geese at 137th Street, and even then they would not be able to do it before their efforts delayed the next train in the line.
I can almost hear the squealing on that loop you're talking about, and I'm over 350 miles away.
Their already is a train yard at 137th Street it is ten tracks wide (including the thru-tracks. If the two outside tracks were angled down, and looped under the remaining yard tracks, a train could revers direction there very quickly.
By designating the loop as "revenue Trackage" they would be spared the ordeal of fumigating the train. But it will be a rather braod loop, I suspect much wider than the Ferry, and ought not to squeel. Even if it does, it will be several levels under ground and so you will not hear it even if you are just across the river. : )-
Elias
Passengers aren't permitted to ride through relays, period. It matters not whether the relay is on revenue trackage. Many relays are, but passengers are kicked off anyway.
The one exception is City Hall, probably because headways are too short. Since passengers are permitted to ride through that relay, the trackage had to specifically be reclassified as revenue trackage.
Perhaps another exception should be made at 137, but simply reclassifying the trackage wouldn't help -- the middle track there is already classified as revenue trackage!
I'm glad I was part of this protest against yet more post-9/11 bullshit. As I stated in another thread, I counted about 80 of us and it was enough to attract attention from the passersby and other passengers. I know I personally explained the protest to a couple of other passengers and I'm sure everyone else did at least the same. Thanks and kudos to Joe for coming up with this one.
More photos HERE
As a footnote, I railfanned a bit after the protest ended with no consequence other than being told by a NYPD officer that I'd "...better be careful about what you photograph." He remarked that it was after 9/11 and that I didn't want anyone showing up at my house to ask questions. I replied that I didn't think that was going to happen because in no way would my government admit defeat to terrorism.
Your pal,
Fred
On the one hand, I do not believe that the cause of "security" is served by this ban. Like most of you, I see this as post September 11 paranoia and authoritarianism.
On the other, Lots of business have "no photo" rules and for many reasons:
- potential disruption
- something to hide (e.g., the "Food Lion" case)
- actual safety (e.g., flash blinding a T/O.)
I actually did not realize that photography was allowed in the system, having had a photo permit in the 80s.
So any protests, must not unwittingly give the MTA reason to say "well, that exactly why we need this ban." Unfortunately, the Times article says that fans fired flash. Isn't that banned now? The MTA can just say "we're banning photography 'cuz tourists are too stupid to turn off their flash."
That said, I see no justification for the systematic police harrassment of people who take photos of transit equipment from public property (e.g, the HBLRT incidents.)
Isaac
A good reason. However, any railfan worth his weight in scrap Redbird metal does a good job at not causing such a problem. A bunch of tourists taking pictures, not knowing where they're going, is more likely to cause such a problem, but I think everybody with half a brain knows that summonsing tourists is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
- something to hide (e.g., the "Food Lion" case)
All the more reason to *not* restrict photography.
- actual safety (e.g., flash blinding a T/O.)
A very good reason to restrict photography. So no flash photography (or other behavior) that causes a serious safety problem (and strict penalties, e.g. large fines) if you do so.
- something to hide (e.g., the "Food Lion" case)
All the more reason to *not* restrict photography. Therefore, any proposal to restrict photography must be viewed with great skepticism, as it can be used to such devious purposes, and amounts to giving the government (or whoever is in charge there) a monopoly on the distribution of information or the documentation of goings-on.
If it's a theater or production of some sort, it is generally agreed that copyright and intellectual property concerns preclude the "need" to photograph or record. However, there must be a failsafe (e.g. a patron documenting an unsafe condition in a bathroom or hallway in a movie theater, for example - if no cameras at all were allowed into the theater, that helps render the management immune to criticism for said unsafe condition - a photo couldn't be taken and used as evidence in court, for example, without violating the camera ban.)
Courthouses are similar, in that they wish to prevent visitors from recording legal proceedings in closed-door cases. I, for one, have a bit of a problem with this general ban, believing that it should be restricted solely to individual cases and courtrooms - how else would anyone be able to (legally) document an unsafe condition in a courthouse bathroom, for example?
If it's a high-security area such as a restricted area at a nuclear power plant, or inside a nuclear missile silo, or a photograph of a top-secret government document, then security concerns are paramount. In fact, you probably couldn't even get in to such an area to take pictures. Of course, even in these cases suspicion must be reserved for such classifications of information, because it permits the powers that be to suppress or conceal anything they feel might not be in their best interest to make public.
The problem I have is that the same sorts of draconian high-security measures that traditional "hard targets" and high-security areas have had implemented for good reason for a long time, are beginning to be implemented in the so-called "soft targets," ones which many of us spend a great deal of time in every day by necessity of living our lives. Do we want to live in a world where the same security measures and civil liberties abridgments as are applied (for good reason) at nuclear power plants, military bases, prisons, high-level government summits and the Capitol Building during the State of the Union are applied (for no good reason) at subway stations, restaurants, buses, the Superbowl and Times Square at New Year's Eve? A world where at any time we're free to be poked, prodded, questioned, searched, frisked, demanded for identification, made to take off our jackets, empty our pockets and pass through metal detectors, explain why we are where we are and where we're going, be made to explain to a law enforcement officer our pre-eminent "need" to wear the type of clothing we have on or carry innocuous items in our pockets, have the contents of our wallets inspected at whatever checkpoint, and answer questions about why we carry certain membership cards, or have a particular amount of cash or a blank check in our wallet or two credit cards with slightly different variants of our name (one's Tim and the other Timothy, or one with a middle initial and one without, for example), or why we need two credit cards at all, or why we need so many or so few keys, or why we drive the kind of car we drive, why our hair is styled the way it is, or why we chose to roll our clothing inside the suitcase rather than fold them flat or just toss them in randomly, or why we wear boxers instead of briefs, (all of those questions are typical questions you'd be asked at a police checkpoint, Homeland Gestapo interrogation, customs stop, or in a detailed interrogation by an airport security officer) face the possibility of interrogation and detainment or confiscation of property, all because we do those things we normally go about in the course of our lives? Add to that the interminable "suspicious packages" and "service diversions" and "police investigations" that occur with shocking regularity, after which there is no official report, no public statement, and everyone seems to simply forget. And documents being withheld with increasing regularity for no reason other than "national security interests," and no one stops to question why, or demand an independent (but still confidential) investigation of whether national security interests are at stake, or if it's simply the powers that be protecting their own interests. These kinds of authoritarian 'security' measures creep up, taking the freedoms we take for granted one by one until it's too late. What's worse is that as freedoms are gradually taken away, we come to accept that loss of freedom, so the next incremental power grab seems just as innocuous as the first. And the third just as innocuous of the second, and the fourth as innocuous as the third, all in so many little innocent steps that by the time we're done even with binoculars we can't even see where we started.
I was part of a splinter group that headed for Coney Island after Union Square, in hopes of drawing the attention of the overly sensitive police there. No such luck; we were not spoken to at all.
But after 1954, most upper Manhattan traffic took the D directly, with only folks from Bed-Stuy and some of the Eastern Division still using the Franklins.
Wouldn't most coming from the IRT network, which has much broader coverage uptown than the IND, transfer to one of the BMT lines at Times Square, at Union Square, or in Brooklyn?
The MJ was the Myrtle Ave. local to Jay St. and, prior to 1944, Park Row. It also never went to CI.
BMT #'s:
1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.
I'm not sure what number the Franklin/Nassau specials used.
I'm not sure what number the Franklin/Nassau specials used.
I don't think Franklin-Nassau service ever operated with cars that had route numbers, though a Triplex might have been a possibility.
The service always operated with BMT Standards, so far as I've ever heard.
Signs would be either "Franklin-Nassau" or "Express" on the top, with either destination on the bottom part of the sign.
Triplexes had "Coney Island Express" as one of their route indications, but I never saw a revenue train operate with that sign.
I would guess that if numbers were needed, the service would have operated with a '7' all the way through, even though the old directory at Stillwell used to read, for Track A, "Sea Beach Express to Chambers Street," with a pull-down cover board that read "not running," if memory serves. The '7' would make more sense than using a '4,' since an occasional service using the same number as a regular service could be more confusing than the usual BMT multi-route confusion.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Ed: On occasion the Zephyr made the Franklin-Nassau run and did carry #7 route signs.
Its interesting that there never was a Sea Beach Express per say. All the indigenious Sea Beach Expresses actually ran local on the Sea Beach Line itself and express on 4 Avenue.
The only two regular services ever to use the Sea Beach express tracks where the #7 Franklin-Nassau and the short lived NX which originated on the Brighton Line.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I have never heard of a Franklin/Nassau, but the Franklin Ave used the "7".
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Back in the 1950s, an old originally employee in the BMT Trainmaster's Office told me that in the mid-1920s, they dispatched those expresses up the Sea Beach with literally no headway--as fast as they could load up all those people coming up the ramps, they'd send the next one out. I've often wondered whether the signals on the Sea Beach center tracks were adequate to handle that.
BTW, those trains used to carry folks coming across the Williamsburg Bridge but especially lots and lots of Lower East Side people--quick trip to Chambers, and four stops after that to Coney Island.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
What signals? None existed between 8th Ave and Kings Highway until 5-6 years ago.
Hi Chris: The #7 Franklin-Nassau trains did not operate after the summer of 1952.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Franklin Av and all stops to Prospect Park then express stops to Coney Island and non-stop via the Sea Beach express tracks to 59 St.then 36 St,Pacific St and non-stop via bridge to Chambers St.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Reminds me of a trip I took about 25 years ago on the Brighton Express. There was some sort of blockage on the line north of Kings Highway. So instead of discharging the passengers and making us take the bus, they told us to remain on the train if we wanted to go to Manhattan. The train then reversed direction and proceeded to go back to Coney Island without making any stops. It then switched to the Sea Beach Line and continued non-stop all the way to Pacific Street. It then went over the bridge to Canal Street and continued to wherever it was going, 57 Street or Astoria.
Everyone was puzzled not knowing where we were going but they kept reminding us to be patient. And you know what? I think I ended up only being ten minutes late. I didn't even mind being late because I enjoyed the trip so much. Certainly beat being stuck at Kings Highway for 30 minutes or being forced to take a bus.
I've always wondered who made the decision to do that and why I don't think it was ever done again when there is a blockage. Seemed inventive and it made sense.
1,3,4,5,7.
B via West End, B via Brighton, D via Culver, D via Brighton, D via West End, F,G,M via Brighton, M via Sea Beach, N, NX, Q, QB, QT, QJ, T, TT.
And don't forget named services, Brighton Local and Express, West End Local and Express, Culver Local and Express, Sea Beach Express, Franlin-Nassau (Coney Island Express), Brighton to Park Row, Culver Elevated via 5th Avenue,
That's probably not all, but that's a lot.
Chris: A minor correction. From Novemeber 1967 to July 1968 the 168 St-Broad St trains were JJ's. The Brighton Beach ones were QJ's and the 95 Street ones were RJ's. Starting in July 1968 the JJ and the RJ were eliminated. QJ was used for both the Broad Street and Brighton Beach (Coney Is after 8/68) services.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Routes terminating at Stillwell
1,3,4,5,7.
B via West End, B via Brighton, D via Culver, D via Brighton, D via West End, F,G,M via Brighton, M via Sea Beach, N, Q, QB, QT, QJ, T, TT, W.
Brighton Local and Express, Brighton-Nassau Bankers, West End Local and Express, Culver-Nassau Local and Express, Sea Beach Express, Brighton to Park Row, Culver Elevated via 5th Avenue, Brighton-Franklin Local and Express (signed as simply LOCAL and EXPRESS).
Do we count the Norton's Point trolley? Part of same complex, but didn't enter the main station.
Routes running through Stillwell
NX, Franklin Nassau (Coney Island Express), Culver Shuttle to 9th Avenue, West End Shuttle to Bay Parkway, West End-Culver Loop Shuttle from Bay Parkway to Kings Highway.
Routes using old West End Terminal (same location) before 1919.
Brooklyn, Bath & Coney Island steam dummy, Brooklyn, Bath & West End, West End surface line elevated service to Park Row, Sea Beach trolley, Sea Beach branch of West End (with Coney Island express), Sea Beach subway service to Chambers Street.
Can't think of any more right now.
If we're including GO's, add a West End shuttle (9th Avenue to Stillwell) and a Brighton shuttle (Prospect Park to Stillwell). The Q has run on the Sea Beach and the West End; the W has run on the Sea Beach; the D has run on the Sea Beach; the N has run on the West End. The N has also run through Stillwell (south via Sea Beach, north via Brighton) during a GO.
When R-type cars were put on the West End, the TT was a rush-hour-only Nassau Loop service, wasn't it? During rush hours, the usual terminal was 62nd Street or Bay Parkway. Was 'TT' also used for the night-time shuttle that operated from 36th Street to Coney Island after R-types were in use?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
But that's just my opinion. I mean, how would you regard special runs that ran regularly but never showed on passenger literature? For example, the baseball specials that waited outside Prospect Park on game weekends, carried passengers (on Triplexes) to 57/7, then returned as Brighton Locals and laid up? Was that a separate "service"?
Was it known as (I know it never had trains signed as such) the #5 or the #6? I assumed Culver/el service was known as the #6 and Culver/subway service was known as the #5. Or was the #6 used exclusively for service to 65th St/3rd Ave?
Or am I completely wrong?
Four BMT routes served Coney Island Terminal prior to 1954.
#1 Brighton, #3 West End, # 4 Sea Beach and #5 Culver.
During the summer months the #7 Brighton-Franklin Line also ran down to Coney Island. There was also the #7 Franklin-Nassau which ran on sunny,summer,Sundays.
After 1954 the Culver Line became an IND operation using the D train.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Oh, I know, they're cut from the same cloth as Bu$h and Ass[hole]croft!
Oh, I know, they're cut from the same cloth as Bu$h and Ass[hole]croft!
Also, here's a page I found that links you to all the other links out there. It's easier than posting all the individual links:
http://www.aboutmattlaw.com/archives/001556.html
...excuse if it's already been posted, I haven't had much time to read SubTalk lately, but I don't think all these links were yet posted.
SAS
I won't touch the peeing on the 3rd rail one.
Peace,
ANDEE
Incidentally, I believe in the last week the History channel (or was it the Discovery channel) did a show proving it is impossible to get electrocuted by urinating on the 3rd rail.
Daryl J
We'll go with their silly mannequin filled with dog whiz, we'll accept their floppy drainage system. HOWEVER, there were some key bits missing in their so-called "experiment" that would have TRULY made a difference. First of all, the inland Oakland, CA environment is a lot DRIER than New York or Chicago where there is a much higher amount of HUMIDITY.
Raise your hands, anyone who has actually WORKED rail yards with third rail present. On a nice DRY day, sunny, etc, when you walk the tracks, you'd barely know that third rail is there and alive. But walk the tracks on a foggy morning, a misty morning, a RAINY morning and you can feel the electricity on your leg hairs. Right? :)
For "buffs" ... check out the arcs and sparks from third rail shoes on a nice dry sunny day as compared to a foggy or misty one. Didja SEE a difference? Now ... to that humidity, add a little steel dust in the air, a little arnine smoke, other "impurities" and NOW you have a little bit more conduction through the AIR ITSELF that was not to be found in the so-called "experiment" ... it WOULD have made a difference in the outcome.
So the REAL answer is on a nice DRY day, your chances of survival are a good deal better than they would be on a foggy, misty or humid summer day. That was completely missing from this "experiment" and was not considered. It WOULD have made a difference ... anyone who works electric railroads can tell ya. :)
You haven't seen many toasted weener dog recipes have you?
Joking aside but not really friends and I once saw two residents of the 7 Av-53 St station have an argument over this that was one of the funniest things I've ever heard. One shocked the other put his "family jewels up for sale like that" and the other telling him "you stupid bum the eleck-ter-icity is for the train not my [body organ]." And these guys are probably experts on the reality of the myth because there's been a lot of urination all over that station. Not to mention leaks and peeling paint.
Would you like to demonstrate on the next Fan Trip ?
I once touched the third rail (in London- 600v) with a bucket I was swinging and wouldn't want that senstion elsewhere on my body ! :-)
wayne
There was an informational sign placed by the MTA that explained what was going on, and why the station signs said "Inner Harbor" and not "Johns Hopkins".
The actual filming was done on a Sunday, since when Homicide was in production the Subway didn't run on Sunday.
Not even two WEEKS after Randy Kennedy, of the New York Times, lamented in his final article that he'd HEARD of "space cases" but in all his DESIRE to "see" one had NEVER had the opportunity to do so, did another "space case event" occur without his witness. I hate to say "check the archives here" but it was (within the past 4 months or so, however long it was sinec Randy Kennedy quit the "subway beat") mentioned here after Randy moved onto another beat where "we" had yet another of those ... :(
But yeah, compression salvation where the upper torso is trapped DOES result in such things, it IS for real ...
That episode of Homicide had powerful performances by Vincent Onofrio and Andre Braugher.
http://kwc.org/blog/archives/001186.html
That many deaths in the Malbone Street wreck were caused by electrocution (probably none were).
That the Malbone Street wreck caused wooden cars to be removed from the subway (fear of fire was the main issue, and wood trains ran in subway portions for almost another decade, including through the Malbone tunnel).
That the City paid for all the subways and "gave" them to the private companies to operate. (After the original IRT subway, the overall split was about 50/50).
I wonder what drove them out of the sewers ?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Michael
Washington, DC
Mark
p.s.---see y'all on the 19th.---Bright and Early...
This is odd ... no news reports are saying anything about a bomb, and it should go without saying that a bomb's being found on a passenger train would be a BIG story. Also, the stock market is up quite a bit today, and even the merest HINT of a bomb would cause 1929-style capitulation. All I can think of is that: (1) somebody made an incorrect report over a scanner, or (2) the authorities have pulled off the best coverup in recent history.
But was it an actual, working, live bomb that was defused by the bomb squad, or was it more like a suspicious-looking package - unusually large, lumpy or heavy, with strange stains on the outside or emitting strange smells, or with wires coming out, so the person who found it called it in as a potential bomb on the radio, but then it turned out later to be nothing? Maybe when it was determined to be nothing you weren't listening to the scanner, or the communications were made on a secure channel, or, possibly, radio silence was ordered (not an unusual practice when a potential bomb is discovered).
My bottom line is that there will always be many, many, more false alarms than the real deal, and the ratio of false alarms to genuine detections rises exponentially with the paranoia level in society (and inversely to the amount of *real* security measures taken). If every sighting of a guy in a turban or named Muhammad, or someone taking pictures of a train or a suspicious package results in a rail line being shut down, or a bridge or tunnel shut down, or an office tower evacuated, or hundreds of people indefinitely detained without charge, or the freezing of thousands of peoples' assets indefinitely, we'll end up doing far more damage to our infrastructure and our economy than if we simply left Osama and his crew of lowlives up to their own devices.
Not that I think we should leave Osama up to his own devices - there are many genuine security precautions that can be taken without falling prey to paranoia, without unnecessarily infringing on the Constitutional rights of citizens and visitors, and that efficiently use the limited security resources available (instead of squandering them on stripsearching 75 year old Congressmen, threatening to confiscate Congressional Medals of Honor, groping pregnant women, and holding cab drivers and medical students who overstay their visa for months without charge, for example).
As far as the "even if it saves one life it's worth it" - think of how much in the way of resources are being diverted from, for example, highway improvements or the fight against cancer. About as many people as died on 9/11/01 die of cancer, EVERY SINGLE DAY - that's right, nearly 3000 people die of cancer in the US every single day (the statistics are publicly available). An even larger number die every single day from heart disease, while somewhat smaller numbers are killed by diabetes, stroke, pneumonia and major organ failure - all told, over 10,000 Americans meet their Maker every single day for whatever reason - natural or unnatural. Why does anyone have this cockamamie idea that somehow they're more likely to be killed by terrorists than by any of these things, or that fighting terrorism should be the #1 priority, when the reality is terrorism doesn't even come close by orders of magnitude in terms of risk? If we're spending all these billions of dollars in anti-terrorism measures (which, by the way, are bankrupting local and state governments, particularly during those "orange alert" periods), then shouldn't we be spending proportionately more on research and treatment against the diseases I mentioned (and dozens, perhaps hundreds more, that are much more likely to kill you than Osama's Boyz).
Many thousands of people die in motor vehicle accidents every year. If we simply banned all cars, that number would go to zero overnight. Even if it saves only one life (which it will within hours of passing the ban), isn't it worth it? I think society as a whole has decided that sometimes efficient transportation, the ability to get from one place to another, even if at slightly incremental risk, is well worth it. Not so worth it that no safety improvements need be made - this is why very good laws were passed requiring driver testing and licensing, seatbelts, impact glass, airbags, crumple zones, road and highway construction standards, and the like. And yes, you're far more likely to be killed in a car accident than in a plane crash or terrorist attack, or for that matter to be raped or murdered by some thug. But we agree that driving is an acceptable risk, a value and risk judgment we're rendered unable to make when governed by paranoia.
I, personally, feel that my right to travel without fear of unreasonable searches of my person and property, forfeiture or seizure of my assets for whatever unspecified reason, lengthy detention or interrogation without substantial cause or legal charge, and a whole host of other infringements on my basic rights, significantly outweigh the miniscule risk of being killed by al-Qaeda operatives. And the more paranoid we are, the more prominent the former become with respect to the latter.
We have surely faced down much more fearsome enemies than we face now - million-man armies, nuclear weapons, ICBMs ready to fire at a moment's notice, armies which conquered vast swaths of the planet through their own military might, power-hungry zealots with highly trained and disciplined regiments ready to take us down at all cost, and through it all we've persevered and done our best to preserve the Constitutional rights of those in this country (and when we have faltered from that cause, such as the internment of citizens of Japanese descent during WWII, or restrictions on free speech and legal rights during WWI and the Civil War, for example), the verdict of history has almost unanimously come crashing down against such measures. After all, a terror attack only affects those few that are directly involved, but changes to laws and the rollback of civil liberties affects everyone, and forever; rights, once forfeited, are rarely reclaimed.
Al-Qaeda handed us a major battlefield defeat on 9/11, as it did when it bombed the USS Cole, the WTC in 1993, the embassy bombings, on March 11 in Madrid, and a number of other occasions. We have also scored major battlefield victories against Al-Qaeda - the killing or capture of high-ranking officials such as Shaikh Omar-Abdel Rahman, Ramzi Yousef, Mohammad Atef, Abu Zubaydah, Khalid Shaikh Mohammad and Ramzi bin al-Shibh, the prevention of a number of attacks - the foiled 1995 plot of Shaikh Rahman, the foiled Millennium plot against LAX, the captures of Zacarias Moussaoui and the shoe bomber Richard Reid - the fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan, the seizure of millions of dollars in terrorist blood money. But in any war there will always be victories and defeats; what matters in the end is whose cause prevails. Ours is the cause of freedom and democracy, and the rule of law - the freedom to live in a society where you are free to govern the course of your own life, the freedom to worship, to speak, to observe, to associate, to travel as you please without unreasonable interference, the freedom to select those who represent you in government, a government which judges based on the rule of written law rather than capricious whim or force of will, and the willingness to fairly and proudly shine that beacon of freedom for all the world to see. It can then be said that truly the terrorists have lost because their goals have not been achieved.
It indeed is strange how America is freaking out over an enemy that by any standards is far weaker than ones we've faced - and defeated - in the past. I for one would be very much interested in knowing why. Maybe it's simply because 9/11 was such a preposterously lopsided battlefield defeat. Or it could be that we're unwilling to repeat the mistake of Vietnam and underestimate the enemy's capability. Or we've simply grown too complacent in our affluent society. Whatever the reason, the result is clear - America's national character, to the extent there really is such a concept, has been shown to be very deficient.
Fact is, there were individual DAYS during WWII where we lost more men than we lost altogether in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan combined! We suffered major battlefield defeats and setbacks. We also won many important victories, but there were many of both. For 4 years (6 in Europe, 8 in Asia) it was not at all certain who would win - there was no guarantee from Providence (Jerry Falwell notwithstanding) that the Allies would be victorious. In less than six months France fell to the Nazis, and Hitler had already conquered most of Europe before long. For months the Luftwaffe pounded the British Isles with everything they had - imagine if we were struck by massive terrorist attacks every single day for months on end. It was not assured that D-Day would be a success - it could well have gone down as a great military failure; Eisenhower even hedged his bets by preparing statements to be released in the event of its failure. Nobody knew whether dropping the nuclear bombs in Japan would precipitate a hastened end to the war, but it was tried and it did. Then again, maybe it might not have, and we'd have still had to fight door-to-door on the Japanese mainland, doubtless incurring hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of casualties in the process. While our cause in WWII was just, we, the Allies, the "good guys," firebombed Dresden, Tokyo and other cities, killing hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of civilians - many more than at Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. Many of the German soldiers were drafted, mere boys at that, fighting on the front, just trying to stay alive, just like our boys over there. Many of them had no connection to the Nazi regime, nor any sympathy for it. Then again, many of them did and are guilty of assisting in one of the largest and most heinous genocidal campaigns in human history. The Battle of Stalingrad, a large Russian city that could just as well be New York, Chicago or London, resulted in a siege that lasted an entire winter for the better part of a year in which several million people on both sides lost their lives. That's right, millions. I have a friend who was a POW in Germany - while the soldiers did not feed him much, they didn't have much food for themselves toward the end, and the POWs ate just about as well as the soldiers did. And stateside, there was a lot of dissent as to whether we should have gotten involved in a war across the ocean; granted, after Pearl Harbor most (though not all) of that dissent evaporated, but prior to 12/7/41, many Americans saw FDR as the type of sabre-rattler that GWB is seen as now.
Anyway, the point was that history is rarely neat and clean and full of valuable little obvious object lessons, but we like to think of it as such and try to shoehorn modern life into this neat little picture. No, everything isn't turning to chaos; it never was anything but organized chaos.
If they had embedded reporters and live news footage at many of the battles in WWII, with 24/7 talking heads and scrolling caption bars detailing every little pimple and boil, I think the doubts during WWII would have been far stronger than they were with delayed reports of casualties and media essentially limited to print and radio. Through it all - the victories, the losses, the dribbles of information - some correct, some not - trickling in, we persevered and made it through. And I do believe that in the end our cause, the cause of freedom, of democracy, of the rule of law, of organized and civilized society, of the value of diversity and tolerance, ultimately will prevail, despite setbacks and twists and turns, and the occasional ignominious battlefield defeat. I have too much faith in humanity, and our core values as Americans, to let these causes fail just because a few barbarians don't see it our way. No, the terrorists will not win - I refuse to let them win.
Ok, getting off the soapbox...
Yawn!
Oh Sorry, pardon me.
I work in EMS, and I have learned that NOTHING that comes over the radio is ever correct.
I'll decide for myself what the situation is when I get there. Then *I* will radio LEC (the Law Enforcement Center), and let them know what *I* found, and *that* will just be one more story out there on the radio.
And if anything hairy *is* happening, I move to a cell phone right away.
Most real police/military communications are handled over secure comms anyway.
Elias
Elias, you don't know the railroad, do you? Everything is done on the radio, because the radio is TAPE RECORDED. So if you want to go on the record for saying something, yell it on radio. The NTSB will listen to it later if something happened.
Secure comms? And cell phones are secure why? Maybe next time I should have one of my comms friends show you how to listen to an (analogue) cell phone using a radio scanner. And you think Cumberland has digital cell phone coverage? Oh and did I ever mention anything about the cell phone encryption using 40-bit keys (even though the standards calls for 56-bit) because the last 16-bits are always zero?
I don't know if there was a bomb on the train or not. I didn't hear the radio, and I am not involved with the investigations. Either way, it doesn't matter -- people were detained, and passengers were bused. So whoever blew the whistle did the right thing. No one will go to the trouble of detaining anybody and then busing the entire fucking train if nothing was amiss after the train was checked out.
AEM7
I did not say that cell phones were encrypted. I said that police and military operations use secure comms. Mostly now a days for the police, that means computer connections. Not as secure as all of that, but good enough for tactical purposes.
I said that I would switch to a cell phone after the initial call out. That *is* more secure that an open radio: we are allowed to give a patient's name on the phone but not on the radio, and ALL COMMUNICATIONS with LEC are recorded regardless of what line, phone, or radio I should happen to use. It is true that phone links to the hospital are not recorded, but then I'm not so sure that LEC would record them either. I suspect that State Radio *does* record all traffic on the EMS channels, but we don't use these channels much any more anyway.
Elias
It's niether. It can't really be either (nor the Archer stations) as both extensions were built after the BMT and IND were disolved.
As for the tiles, there are none because when and if the unused side get's used, the wall down the middle comes down, making it Island platforms at 63rd/Lex (what it really is to begin with).
Too bad...the station will look like crap once the nice center wall gets taken down.
I'm praying that the whole station gets remodeled when the Q is extended thru the station.
It's a fairly safe bet it will be. Besides fixing up the platform, there will be a new entrance at 63rd/3rd.
I'd say it's a safe bet too, because it's either match the "new" trackwall and floor with the same 80's tile, or just redo the whole thing.
There have been recent times when correspondence from TA depts still used the IRT IND and BMT reference, probably because it's shorter to type "53rd Street IND station" rather than specifying exactly which line it is.
Ron
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-Julian
I know that the AirTrain is run by the PANYNJ, but what is there photo rule?
Your pal,
Fred
mike
I understand that now a permit requires a written letter of intent before it can be issued. That's not a major mountain to cross and once you've jumped through that hoop, you should be in. Ms Carol Timberlake will be your contact person at the MBTA. She's very gracious and charming and completely removes any 'us agin them' attitude. I was in her office for a total of 10 minutes and her parting words to me were 'happy photographing'.
My permit is good for 3 months, btw.
Your pal,
Fred
Given that the budget for NYS (*NOW 3 months late!*) if it EVER gets done (absolutely *NO* signs of ANYTHING) will be like so much of the PROPOSED budget - all gambling money, and USER FEES. It'll cost you $30 or more these days just to get your paperwork from the state. And outrageous charges for permits, business fees, you name it. Given the shakedown mentality of our state republicans, GE pays NOTHING. YOU on the other hand, out the beezer.
I can DEFINITELY see this "permit bureau" becoming a "revenue source" for the state teat. "User fee" and THAT would become an economic CLASS barrier to those who can't AFFORD the fee for their hobby. Knowing the designs of politicians in THIS state and their revenue methods, THIS is the reason why I've become involved in the "say what?" over this. I've personally NEVER taken pictures in the subway, I'm a TERRIBLE photographer so I don't even try. :)
If a state agency does *ANYTHING* for the public in THIS state, there's ALWAYS a fee ... and them suckers are going up like bottle rockets. I can DEFINITELY see the "general public" being able to get a one month "MTA PHOTOCARD" for $35 a crack. And that disturbs me, because such is the USUAL end game in this state. "Poor people STILL got 50 cent. *MINE!!!*" :(
Maybe we should just start a newspaper and become eligible for press permits. I've always thought it would be fun to run a newspaper...
Your pal,
Kane
With a Republican Governor from Peekskill and the NY State Senate Majority Leader from Albany-Rennassler, you can blame them.
Then again you can blame the NY State Assembly Majority Leader if the SAS line will never, ever be built in our future generations, let alone ours. Whoops, I forgot the Assembly Leader is a Democrat from the Lower East Side of Manhattan. :-)
Here ... read THIS and CHIT yourself. :)
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=254911&category=STATE&newsdate=6/7/2004
Now *THERE'S* some news. :-\
That's odd. My vehicle registration expires at the end of July, and I got a renewal notice in the mail a few days ago.
Must be random errors in the system.
Your pal,
Fred
I believe you can take photos on Airtrain JFK. I've never had problems, and I haven't heard of anyone else being harassed either.
I think photos are prohibited on Airtrain Newark, or at least the authorities like to think they are.
Your pal,
Fred
She also referred to me being in a "restricted area," where no such signage stating that exists.
I think I know what S-9 stands for but even so...
No real reason to keep location disclosed, you're not doing other photographers
a favor that way...
BTW, trying to fight the ticket on the grounds that photography is not yet illegal isn't likely to go very far since the ticket was not issued for that, but for a completely independent offense.
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
(Even if and when the ban goes into effect, I wouldn't be surprised if tickets are dismissed.)
Go fight it. Cops can't make up the rules as they go along, though they'll often try to, since they figure most will pay the ticket as opposed to fighting it.
There's no law against taking pictures on the NYC subway, yet. You can't be punished for doing something that's not illegal.
Go fight it. It's sometimes worth it just to see the look on the guy's face when the judge laughs the ticket out of court....
(I've watched this in traffic court a few times. You'd be amazed the bad storytelling that goes on on both sides. My favorite was still watching a lawyer basiccaly rip apart some rookie's story about an accident in the plaza of the VN, especially saying said rookie must have realized early on he was fucked, but kept trying to cover his tracks. Absolutely priceless...)
So I guess if you take pics of the subway or the bus in NYC, you ahve to declare that on job applications huh? There's a good way to get the nations population together.
Seems that there is more to this story than you are saying!
What station?
What part of the station?
I think the subject line says it all.
Now you are a tad bit late cause I just came back from lunch and I would've ventured over to personally congrat you at BK.
Now don't forget to get your free soda refills at the machines behind you. :-)
Did you happen to see the VERY out-of-date Neighborhood map they had at the TAB?
There are lots of originals in Brooklyn.
What were the GROUNDS FOR DISMISSAL and did the writing officer appear?
Your pal,
Fred
Monday, 7 June 2004:
On this date, I decided to do a trial run for the following Saturday. I had a sound check at Radio City Music Hall on that Saturday, and I received a tentative schedule for the day, indicating that there would be some free time between the end of the sound check/rehersal and the time I had to be back in RCMH for the performance. Therefore, I wanted to see how far down I could go before I would have to turn back. This Saturday was the day when a General Order would be in effect, sending F trains to Euclid Avenue, and G trains to Coney Island (Speaking of which, it'll happen again 3 times in July, every weekend starting with next). I started opposite the southwest corner of Rockefeller Plaza and West 51st Street, and proceeded to the nearest subway entrance to start the trip, with a stopwatch keeping time. I had just missed the southbound F train, so I caught a southbound B train and took it to Broadway-Lafayette Street, where I caught that southbound F train. I took that to Jay Street, where I caught a southbound C train, and took it one stop. I added 2.5 minutes to the time I had got to this point, Hoyt-Schermerhorn Streets, and started writing down the travel times for each station in a book. I caught a southbound G train and proceeded to write travel times in the book for each station. When the train reached Smith-9 Streets, I got off, and took a picture of the rear of the G train beyond the 4 car stop marker. I walked to the far end of the platform. I saw an F train approaching the station, which stopped to either let on or let off a track worker. I got a picture of this F train as the exchange was taking place. Eventually, that train started to move. I got a picture of the train as it was entering the station. I turned back towards the middle of the platform in preparation to board the train. I was by the stairway when I was approached by two plain-clothes female P.O.'s, and a discussion ensued. Interestingly enough, another person on the platform, apparently seeing me wearing the camera bag, intterupted, talking about how the photo ban was just a proposal, etc. He was instructed to wait until they were done with me, so he sat on the bench by the stairs. As my discussion with the P.O.'s continued, the officer who wrote the NOV said I was in a "restricted area." She might have meant RCA, but those were not the words she said. I believe she thought the terms were interchangeable. As they continued speaking with me, she referred to 9/11 (That's always the excuse nowadays, isn't it?), the "security level,” and so forth. She also referred to the potential dangers of the RCA. I was served the NOV and I was sent on my way. I boarded the next F train and took it to Church Avenue, continuing my previous project to that point. I was still in shock over the incident at Smith-9, and money was as plentiful as Redbirds in passenger service, so I decided to take a rest over at my grandmother's house (Isn't it nice to have family nearby?) As I walked down the platform at that station, I saw a Manhattan-bound train pull in and out. I noticed my grandmother climbing the stairs towards the exit. I met her in the mezzanine, and said I was going over to her place. She had come from the Aquarium, to buy something for someone in Puerto Rico (she would take it with her to P.R. when she traveled down there). I walked over to the apartment and met my grandfather and my aunt there. After relaxing for a few minutes, drinking a lot of water, I asked where the nearest library was. After getting the location, I walked down 36th Street and hopped on a B16 bus near 12th Avenue. I got off at 13th Avenue & 43rd Street, and walked over to the library near there. It was on one of the computers in that library where I posted the thread titled, Summonsed! I also checked the "rules of conduct page" on the MTA web site. I left the library, and hopped on a B35 bus at 39th Street for the return trip.
For the next few days, I was still in shock over the incident, and I did something I hadn't done in a while: I left my camera at home. (Before this, I took it everywhere I went.) Eventually, the shock wore off enough so that I could carry my camera with me, and I even resumed taking pictures of buses. The first such picture was taken on June 15th. By the time the MOD trip came around, I felt better about taking pictures in the subway again, having taken a few pictures in the subway prior. Most of my recent pictures are of buses, though.
Now we get to the day of my hearing, 2 July 2004. As I prepared to leave, I was annoyed at the fact that the news of Marlon Brando's death interrupted "The Price is Right." (I would have been OK with it being the top story of the news broadcast which would follow TPIR (and it was), but if anything stands in the way of TPIR as I watch it, I'm ticked off!) I walk over to the subway station and grab a Manhattan-bound 7 train. The car I was planning on boarding had a "musical performance" going on inside, so I decided to board in the next car forward, and move to the front from there. I never heard from the "performers" again, fortunately, as a southbound N train was approaching Queensboro Plaza along with the 7 train I was on, so I switched there. I switched to the 4 at Lexington, and took that to Nevins. From there, I caught a Manhattan-bound 3 train to Hoyt. I looked for the building I was headed for and eventually found it. Nothing flashy, just a sign which said, "505 FULTON STREET" above the door. I walked in, and said a silent prayer, asking God to help me get this thing resolved. I took the elevator up, and I noticed that the particular elevator I was on only stopped on floors 1, M, 2, 6, and 7, leading me to wonder what was on the other floors. They definitely seemed to exist, because the interval between the bell for floor M and the bell for floor 2 was a lot shorter than that for between 2 and 6. Having arrived at the 6th Floor, I checked in. After I was checked in, I took a seat by the Neighborhood Map, which has a yellow diamond-R line on it. It's probably from the late 1980's, as it also had the JFK Express depicted on it, and the D, M, and Q lines headed down the Brighton Line. I spent my time looking at it. I felt a bit nervous, and the vibrations from whatever equipment was running on the floor below didn't help. However, the nervousness turned into confidence when I remembered what was written on the NOV; only to be disrupted again by that vibration from the floor below. And so it went during the few minutes of waiting. Then I was called in. "This will take ten seconds," the Hearing Officer said to me as we entered one of the hearing rooms. He then spoke into a tape recorder on the desk, basically identifying the case, and said that the NOV was dismissed because he couldn't identify what rule was being violated based on what appeared on the NOV. After he stopped the tape, he asked what kind of camera I had. I told him accordingly, and was then directed back to the waiting room for my paperwork. It didn't take ten seconds, but it was brief, which is what he meant by saying that. When I was called by the clerk, I was asked to sign the paperwork, and I took a copy with me and left. Once I left, I went to the Burger King I had visited during the aforementioned MOD Trip and reported my breaking news to SubTalk, quietly celebrating with a Double Whopper (no pickles, onions, or tomatoes) meal with Barq's Root Beer as my drink (I had something similar on the MOD Trip: a regular Whopper, prepared the same way, and I had the Large meal). I then went to the library in Woodside, and then home, after picking up a pint of Ben & Jerry's ice cream ("Half Baked," which is Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough and Chocolate Fudge Brownie mixed together) at the local Eckerd.
You're probably wondering what was written on the NOV, aren't you? Well, in the section where the violation charge is specified, the officer marked the "Other Rules" box, and then wrote in the box next to it, "1050.c(5)." That's where the confusion which led to the dismissal came from. I had a feeling all along that that's where it would come from. I had a feeling she meant 1050.6(c)(5), because that's what was verbally said to me when we were conversing, but that's also wrong, because that relates to permissible non-transit uses, such that "No person shall use media devices such as films, slides or videotapes." It has nothing to do with the act of taking pictures (We all know that that's 1050.9(c), and I wouldn't have been guilty there since the use of ancillary equipment was nonexistent at the T/P/O.
There, now you know everything related to this summons ordeal, and perhaps a little bit more. Perhaps it's a bit too much more than you would have wanted to read. I just typed what I wanted to type and posted it on SubTalk as it is. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to reply to this post. Thank you for taking the time to read it.
Until next time (if there is a next time, hopefully there won't be), I'm R36 #9346 reporting.
Congrats for speaking up on your side of the story. Until this issue gets resolved, one way or another, continue taking pictures and fully listen and comply with any police officer or MTA employee, even if you are in the right. No matter waht happens, you will win in the end.
If you have a chance, go visit http://www.tpir.tv and look at his site. I have traded tapes of the Mexican version of that show with three shows of the half-hour *syndicated* US-version from late-1994.
Don't let an experience like this get you down.
When I recieved my summons I was with Chris Rivera, and I didn't feel much like photographing any more that day. However, I was back a few days later on the MoD trip.
Basically when they are going through that lecture about 9/11 this and security that I was thinking "just give me the summons so I can get it thrown out." I didn't give the cop the satisfaction of me taking time out to fight it, I dropped it in the mailbox with a notarized statement, and some proff. He said I used flash on the ticket, which was a lie, and my proff was the profiles of the photos I took, which say whether or not I used flash. The cop was a real prick because he told us to find a new hobby, and he lied.
A couple of weeks later I got my dismissal mailed back to me. The jist of it was "Photography is legal".
I didn't celebrate the dismissal because I was confident it was going to happen. I didn't waste my time by appearing in person. No way is some idiot going to cost me time and energy!
It cost only 37¢ for my justice, the notary was free.
That’s why every time you get a notice that is dismissed, file a written complaint with the transit police, complainint about harrassment. They have to follow up. We do this enough times and they start to see that the cost/reward ratio is too low.
Your pal,
Fred
That's what the officer said when she wrote it.
The officer said, when she wrote it, that it wouldn't.
Now, i feel better....
taa taa..
I was standing in that narrow area, between the column and the end of the platform, with at least one foot on the orange line.
SAS
The first is a bit more interesting due to the fact that the G train is near the its stop marker, and the 4 car stop can clearly be seen. It goes to show you what a 4-car train would look like if 6 is placed with 10 (as it is at Smith-9).
They love to say that anywhere near the "Do not enter or cross tracks" sign is a restricted area. I don't go all the way down to the edges anymore, unless it's a MoD trip.
Just state that Section 1050.9 of the Rules state that Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except when using ancillary equipment (Lights, tripod, etc.) and that there has NOT been an ammendment to those rules!
You should win that pretty easy.
Trevor
What does AFAIK stand for ? Please advise. Thanks.
Was the Church Ave. Trolley the last to go? or was it McDonald Ave?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
I don't get too many nostalgia pangs about transit any more, but the end of thr trolleys still hurts. When I was born in 1946 the Brooklyn system was mostly intact. When I was 5 years old in 1951 it was all gone, except for Church, Coney Island and McDonald. It's still incredible to me. For years after the final closing in 1956 you could see trackwork all over Brooklyn--I could see what I missed, like the tracks along the curb on Parkside Avenue, covered with autumn leaves and parked cars. It was like tracing the reign of mighty dinosaurs from their bones.
It's amazing how other cities like Boston, Philly and Toronto kept the trolley alive to some extent, but in New York City they are gone.
Oh yeah, the map image is 435KB
If you're trying to figure out which current bus lines were trolleys, an incomplete answer is almost all of them, except most of the low-numbered bus routes, and some of the highest-numbered.
Also, for many years almost all the Brooklyn bus routes traced the trolley franchises slavishly, except to alter a terminal turn-around, avoid a short piece of abandoned PRW, or adjust for one-waying of streets. More recently, there have been a lot of changes including route renumberings.
A short list through the 1960's of routes that were never trolley routes include:
B-1 Manhattan Beach
B-2 Avenue R
B-3 Avenue U
B-4 Bay Ridge Parkway
B-5 Kings Highway
B-6 Bay Parkway-Avenue J
B-7 Kings Highway-Saratoga Avenue
B-8 18th-Foster
B-9 60th Street
B-11 49th-53rd Streets
B-12 East New York Avenue
B-13 Crescent Street
B-15 Manhattan Bridge
B-16 Fort Hamilton Parkway
B-17 Remsen Avenue
B-18 Wyckoff
B-19 Carlton (I don't think)
B-20 Pennsylvania Avenue
B-22 Atlantic Avenue
I don't guarantee that list, but I think it's right from memory.
Written by George Cuhaj. While we're on the subject of guides on NYCSubway, does anyone know of Mark S. Feinman's progress on the State of the 80's report?
Michael
Washington, DC
WASHINGTON - Metro plans regular subway service on Friday, even though it will be a day off for federal workers.
"We didn't want to cut back service," transit agency spokeswoman Lisa Farbstein said Monday. Although many regular commuters will not be using the system Friday, Metro is unsure how many people will come into Washington.
Ronald Reagan's funeral at Washington National Cathedral is off-limits to the public, but there will be a motorcade there from the U.S. Capitol.
Bus riders will see "a huge impact" because of detours, Farbstein said. Along with Friday's motorcade to the cathedral - and another from the cathedral to Andrews Air Force Base - there will also be a formal funeral procession on Wednesday.
Metro Access customers who have subscription service for Fridays will have to call in and schedule a ride, since this Friday has been declared a federal holiday and subscription service does not run on holidays.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is what I predicted...
Reagan did nothing for transportation and made a mess out of the air traffic controllers.
President Reagan broke an illegal strike that was held by the air traffic controllers union. I spent a lot of time watching the press briefings out in front of the National Conciliation and Mediation Board offices on K Street. The air traffic controllers union broke the no strike clause in there contract. They got what they deserved.
John
That helps explain a most unusual question I was asked on Monday...
Everything I know for sure, I read in the Washington Post :-)
DC, Federal, and Loundon County governments, DCPS, Washington Archdiosies, and GWU are all closed on Friday.
TIME = MONEY
so WOMEN = MONEY*MONEY
MONEY = root of all EVIL = root(EVIL)
so EVIL = MONEY*MONEY
:.
WOMEN = EVIL
================
QED
When WOMEN are around there is a large CURRENT of money flowing from our wallets, and our energy level (VOLTAGE) goes to zero.
RESISTANCE = VOLTAGE/CURRENT
so our RESISTANCE goes to zero around WOMEN.
Girls = Time + Money
Time = Money
Girls = Money©÷
Money = ¡î(Evil)
Girls = Evil
Your pal,
Fred
Lots of abandoned rails turn to bike trails, and In Miami "BRT", which is now insane with how it has to connect to the train anyway.
I'm totally for Truck only portions of highway, like what's going to happen in Texas and one connector in Tampa, Bus lanes or buses not paying to use tolled HOT lanes. But trains are smooth, and glide being more efficient than buses and carring more people. Will always be surperior IMO, though it's ironic how the train came before buses and cars and is still easily #1.
Not to mention I'd rather have a rail line with gravel, a natural filtration system for rain run-off, than a lot of concrete with oily deposits ruining the aquifers.
I don't want my taxes paying for it. Or the taxes of anyone else who will not be using those corridors.
While I'm not sure what percentage of fatal accidents involve semi-trucks, given the considerably larger mass of a semi compared to a car, the safety risk is obvious. Add to that the way truckers' employers make them drive insanely and illegally long hours requiring all kinds of drugs to stay awake, the opinion I come to is that separating heavy trucks from auto traffic is a good idea.
Ideally, I'd like to see most of the long-distance moving of trailers done on piggy-back trains, of course. That would be the safest option of all.
Mark
Deflective reasoning. The biggest argument against railroad subsidies is that "we do not derive direct benefit from it". You're going to use the same argument to support truck-only lanes on highways, after a fashion? If so, then I suggest that this argument be applied to the railroads in regards to maintenance and especially all the grade-crossing elimination you can achieve.
Or we could look at it from the other direction. We could reduce traffic deaths by moving more freight to rail, but then again we'd also reduce traffic deaths if left the freight on the highways and moved passenger traffic to rails.
Either way, a mixed-traffic highways-only model is probably the most dangerous of all options.
Mark
If you choose to go to a guideway to allow longer road trains, then what is the point? You now have a train, except it uses rubber tires and thus will be inefficient when compared to a steel wheeled train.
Really what the US rail system needs is widespread resignaling, double tracking and electrification. With the source and price of oil in doubt lately I'd argue that the latter is the most dire requirement for the national rail system. Electrification can take power from whatever you have on hand, hydroelectric, coal, nuclear, natural gas, or whatever else, and the thermal efficiency of a Powerplant-Transmission Line-Locomotive loop is likely equal or greater than that of a straight diesel. Also electric power is cheaper for an equivilant amount of energy than diesel is.
Think about building a roadway from New York to California - that roadway is 3000 miles long and maybe 16 feet wide at most places (wide enough for traffic in opposite directions to pass). Even a narrow footpath must be at least a couple of feet wide, so it doesn't make much difference.
That whole thing, that whole 3000 mi x 16ft wide strip must be made flat and navigable over its whole area. If it's dirt or gravel, the whole entire area must be tamped down flat, and flattened down again every time there's a storm or strong wind that upsets the surface, and continually maintained to flatten out wheel ruts and footprints. The flat surface may need some sort of drainage system in high-precipitation areas, and in winter may freeze over altogether, rendering it unpassable. Even then, every so often the whole thing needs to be redone from the bottom up. If it's made of cobblestone, then stones must be laid over the whole damn thing - that's a lot of work, and cobblestones don't provide a smooth ride or a flat surface. Modern alphalt and concrete paving didn't exist then, but even today it is expensive, and entails paving down a flat surface over the whole entire area of the road surface, and even then it must be redone every so often.
Alternative: Run two long rails, basically a pair of long thin metal bars joined to adjoining pairs of metal bars, with spacing held fixed by wooden ties running across, and have the wheels ride over those rails, rather than wherever they want on this huge flat surface.
It's a much, much, smaller surface area to maintain in good working condition than a flat road surface. Since the wheels keep running over the same surface, the system is to some extent self-cleaning and self-de-icing. Drainage comes naturally since the wheels ride several inches above ground level, which need not be paved completely flat nor require the ability to withstand large dynamic pinpoint loads, so loose gravel or native dirt works just fine.
Having such a flat, regular contact surface permits far higher operating speeds - even 19th and early 20th century railroads (and most railroads in the US now use trackage from or based upon that era) hit speeds comparable to that of some very fast cars today. And modern trackage, which is almost nonexistent in the US but prevalent in Europe and Asia (the TGV, for example) supports higher speeds than can be reasonably maintained by standard equipment on any road surface (other than racing cars, which are specifically designed for speed and little else).
And the lifetime of the trackage, in practical matters, is limited by the lifetime of the wooden ties, and exceeds the lifespan of nearly all types of road surfaces. With modern concrete or composite ties, rails also last longer than virtually any road surface other than cobblestone, which takes enormous work to lay and doesn't provide a good, flat surface and a smooth ride anyway. But some cobblestone roads that were built by the Romans are still usable to this day. It's a trade-off...
Roads:
Dirt/gravel: don't last long, need very frequent maintenance, not very flat surface, drainage is hit-or-miss.
Asphalt/concrete: Good flat surface, last somewhat longer but still need regular maintenance and resurfacing, kind of expensive, need special drainage systems. Can freeze up like a sheet of ice, making them dangerous
Cobblestone/Brick: Last essentially forever if done right, but surface is bumpy, and installation is expensive/time-consuming.
Rails:
Last a very long time, esp. with modern materials for ties. Permit high operating speeds. Almost always good drainage. Somewhat self-cleaning and self-de-icing. Much smaller riding surface to maintain. Good deal of work to install, and if a rail is knocked even a little out of alignment, derailment can result.
Are you quite serious . . . ?
I suppose you are unfamiliar with how a lot of toll roads back in the 19th century got converted to railroads because nobody was using them. One very famous example is the Middlesex-Essex Turnpike, which cost 3¢ at each end . . . farmers hated it so much that they gave up land to create the Edgar Shunpike. The METP and ES are now the Northeast Corridor and US 1&9 respectively, today. Private horse roadways indeed . . .
Or are you asking why railroads came about? Smoother ride than on any road surface that could be conceived back then. First ones were horse-drawn.
Or in modern times couldn't they replace train tracks with private roadways for like bus or trucking companies?
Replace train tracks . . . ? Now where will you ever see a Peterbilt hauling 140 trailers behind it?? Or fourteen buses coupled together?
There is an advantage to not needing steering columns nor pneumatic rubber tires, you know.
Perhaps you ought to have titled the thread "Why Brains"?
It is sometimes said that there is no such thing as a stupid question, and "why trains" is both broad and philosophical.
Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer's mother asked the interesting question: "why would a person ever want a computer".
Perhaps you can move more weight per unit of energy, but it's hardly self-evident that you can do more useful work.
The data that I have seen shows that energy consumption per passenger mile doesn't differ much between modes.
Passenger Travel and Energy Use, 2000 (Table 2.11):
BTU per passenger mile
Automobiles: 3,543
Personal Trucks: 4,396
Air (Certificated Route): 3,666
Rail (Amtrak Inter-city): 2,902
Rail (Commuter): 2,759
Rail (Light and Heavy Transit): 3,105
Buses (Transit only): 4,775
So I agree, but these differences are not nearly as great as some might think, and they are by no means "self evident".
The above "self evident" proposition is challenged by a recent British study, as reported in the Daily Telegraph.
Citing the trend towards more fuel-efficient cars and less fuel-efficient high-speed trains, the study finds that the weight and fuel requirements of trains have increased to the point where rail could become the least energy-efficient form of transport.
Unfortunately, the seats in the cars are less likely to be filled. A car with four passengers in it, or an SUV with six, isn't so bad enviornmentally, but that's not what you get. Especially given that fact that when you have two people in the car, often only one is going somewhere with the other just driving them.
Load factors should be considered, and the journeys in the study are by no means an unbiased sample. From Chapter 2 of "the Transportation Energy Data Book", BTU per passenger mile (and persons per vehicle) in the US were follows:
Automobiles: 3,543 (1.6)
Personal Trucks: 4,396 (1.6)
Air (Certificated Route): 3,666 (91.1)
Rail (Amtrak Inter-city): 2,902 (15.0)
Rail (Commuter): 2,759 (34.7)
Rail (Light and Heavy Transit): 3,105 (23.5)
Buses (Transit only): 4,775 (9.2)
Which makes rail the most fuel-efficient and buses the least fuel-efficient.
But the new report does suggest that rail fuel-efficiency may be falling while car fuel-efficiency may be rising.
I have a problem with these numbers -- the auto figures seems a little high. Does the bus figure include the bus driver? If not, then should the car figures always include the driver?
Let me give you an example. My daugher's soccer practice is a mile away. I drive her there and come home. Then I drive there and pick her up, and bring her home.
Load factor is just passenger miles divided by vehicle miles. The vehicle went four miles. I went four miles. She went two miles. If I am included, the load factor is 1.5, but I didn't really go anywhere. If just she is included, the load factor is 0.5.
Similarly, adding the bus driver or train operator and conductor would increase the load factor for mass transit, but they aren't going anywhere either.
I think all figures must include the driver. They are persons per vehicle, not passengers per vehicle. Besides the motorcycle average is 1.22. I agree that the driver should be excluded if acting only as chauffeur, and it would make a big difference.
The report was from Britain, where there are strong incentives on car manufacturers to make their cars fuel-efficient - high fuel prices. Those incentives do not exist in the USA. The same may not be true in the USA.
New trains, as well as going faster, are air-conditioned and have power-operated doors. They use more energy than old slam-door, no a/c types. This is the reason why the London commuter lines south of the Thames are having problems introducing their new trains - the power supplies to the third rail are inadequate for the increased power demands.
The 20-year-old HSTs on Midland Mainline have been refurbished, with new engines in the locomotives ("power cars"). It will be interesting to see if these new diesels are more fuel-efficient than the old ones they replace.
Nevertheless, it is load factor that is the key variable. Sadly there is no point in running trains with no-one on them (whichj was what Beeching was all about, in essence).
Let's hope they're quieter!
Nevertheless, it is load factor that is the key variable. Sadly there is no point in running trains with no-one on them (whichj was what Beeching was all about, in essence).
Correct. However, it is disingenuous to express that in terms of efficiency or other environmental factors. By expressing efficiency in terms of average loadings, comparison between modes becomes invalid.
Beeching's argument was in principle an economic one. He did not confuse it into an environmental pseudo-argument. As such, Beeching's methodology was sound, although the data he based it upon may or may not have been.
See http://www-cta.ornl.gov/data/tedb23/Edition23_Chapter02.pdf
BTU per passenger mile (and persons per vehicle) in the USA in 2001 were as follows:
Automobiles: 3,588 (1.57)
Personal Trucks: 4,063 (1.72)
Motorcycles: 2,500 (1.22)
Demand Response: 13,271 (1.1)
Vanpool: 1,273 (6.9)
Buses (Transit): 4,124 (9.3)
Air (Certificated Route): 3,968 (95.5)
Rail (Inter-city): 4,137 (14.7)
Rail (Transit): 3,114 (23.6)
Rail (Commuter): 2,717 (34.5)
Going back to the recent British study, European cars are of course generally more fuel-economical than American cars.
Over the years, BTU per passenger mile for cars fell while BTU per passenger mile for transit buses rose.
Since 1990 cars have consumed less BTU per passenger mile than transit buses. Note however that "transit buses" do not include inter-city buses (Greyhound?), and that inter-city buses consume far less BTU per passenger mile than transit buses.
Inter-city buses by far out-performed all other modes, including rail, with 852 BTU per passenger mile in the year 2001.
Duh.
What's that saying? Oh yes:
There's no such thing as a free lunch
Without wishing to state the obvious, comparing the fuel-efficiency of modes of transport is by no means straightforward.
The Transportation Energy Data Book shows that, for long distance (inter city) travel, buses are far more fuel-efficient than railroads. But for (existing) local transit, rail performs better than buses, although there are big differences between one local rail system and another. The average load per transit bus is about nine people (probably including the driver).
I do think it's worth bringing energy efficiency data to the attention of rail advocates, some of whom seem to think that rail transport is inherently more fuel-efficient than road transport. The data shows that such is simply not the case.
I'm afraid the data don't show that. A simple experiment will demonstrate the energy efficency of a railway compared to a road: get a horse and see how many more waggons of coal he can haul if they're on rails. Believe me, it works; it's why the colliery owners in Northumberland and County Durham were so enthusiastic about these new-fangled railway things.
The only ways in which you could make road transport seem more efficient would be by (1) ignoring the weight of goods you are trying to shift (i.e. cooking the books); (2) allowing much lower power outputs and speeds as equivalent to much higher power outputs and speeds (downright lying); (3) comparing a small inefficient rail engine with a large extremely efficient road engine (really stretching the limits of what is comparable); (4) by measuring two different power sources in terms of cost (the ask three economists and get five answers method); (5) various statistical games which demonstrate absolutely nothing and almost always are mathematically flawed in some respect (IIRC, there was a very good book written a few years back called "How to lie with Statistics"). None of these ways are sound, all of them look and feel wrong, and none of them could in any way be described as scientific or empirical.
Your experiment with horses would not be representative of real-life conditions. For instance it would not be able to show that Greyhound buses are more fuel-efficient than Amtrak trains, because that must take into account actual loadings.
there was a very good book written a few years back called "How to lie with Statistics".
I read it with great interest at the time, and I try to understand the exact wording and avoid the many pitfalls.
Actual loadings are hypothetical.
The loadings that I quoted came from the "Transportation Energy Data Book", published by the US Department of Energy.
They would do far better to state their economic argument explicitly with regard to where and when precisely loadings are insufficient (if anywhere and at any time).
That's not the only issue with these figures, by the way. Fuel/energy consumed per passenger mile is by no means the only performance metric one measures energy efficiency, but obviously the DOE boffins were too focused on their "energy saving" ideas to notice. For example, how many of those mileages were necessary mileages to accomplish the actual travel? Travelling from Canton, Mass. to Patchogue, NY is something like 300 rail miles, or 200 car+ferry miles, or 400 car+air miles. Then there is the issue in energy conusmed in manufacturing the physical plant that is used for transportation purposes. Constructing the highways uses aggregates, which have to be dug up from the ground; MacAdams has to be heated and poured. Same for airport runways and railroads. Then there is the energy expended in decommissioning energy generating facilities -- for example nuclear power plants, to generate electricity for trains. I don't know how significant these "hidden" energies are.
And there is also the fact that these BTU/pax-mile figures are subject to change once people change their modal preferences. If everyone started driving everywhere, the BTU/pax-mile figure in metropolitan areas will go up because of increased congestion. If everyone rode transit, the BTU/pax-mile figure will go down dramatically.
AEM7
The figures are BTUs per passenger mile and persons per vehicle, and that's all they claim to be.
The Department of Energy only produced and published the data. They didn't argue the merits. We did!
But did they publish truly comparable data, is the question . . . ?
A good question, and the answer is "no".
There is a note above table 2.11 that reads as follows:
"Great care should be taken when comparing modal intensity data among modes. Because of the inherent differences between the transportation modes in the nature of services, routes available, and many additional factors, it is not possible to obtain truly comparable national energy intensities among modes. The values are averages, and there is a great deal of variability even within a mode."
Source: http://www-cta.ornl.gov/data/tedb23/Edition23_Chapter02.pdf
They calculate that expresses between London and Edinburgh consume slightly more fuel per seat (the equivalent of 11.5 litres) than a modern diesel-powered car making the same journey.
The car's superiority rises dramatically when compared with trains travelling at up to 215mph.
The Government is considering such a railway to provide extra north-south capacity in the next decade.
Remind me not to send my children to Lancs. U. because they seem quite biased against the truth.
No copy of this study linked to the article? They most likely leave out the costs related to infrastructure, traffic signaling (on both modes) . . . and diesel fuel??? I have to say that they are utter liars, because diesel exhaust (even low-sulfur) is among the most polluting out there. I suppose they also leave out the energy expended with acceleration, tire friction, and all that?
And how can they do an accurate study of energy expenditure when they haven't run their VW Passat Diesel at 215 mph anyway?? Did they take in the long-term expenditures, like how long the Passat's going to last while the TGVs are still running?
How can they accurately gauge the energy consumption of an electric train traveling at over 200 mph when you have houses and industries pulling power off the same energy grid??? There are no dedicated energy sources to railway lines nowadays, except for older DC and AC systems under 50Hz. This is a highly flawed study.
I think they were pointing out the trends. Faster trains use more energy, whereas cars are (slowly) getting more efficient.
"Your mileage may vary", as one says. If you compare a diesel powered train built in the 1960s with an energy efficient automobile built in the 2000s, it is not surprising that the diesel train costs more fuel per seat. However you can cook the study anyway you want: there are simply too many variables. Trains are only energy efficient if everyone rides them. Running a train with one passenger is much less efficient than running a car with one passenger.
The study cannot possibly be making a realistic comparison, since nowadays the trains are electric anyway and cars are mostly gas-powered and not diesel.
It is true that the industry has generally not been keeping up with the kind of energy efficiencies that other modes have been focusing. This is because of a lack of incentives. The EPA Tier II and Tier III emission standards in the U.S. has driven great strides in reducing pollution from trains; the AC traction revolution and fuel prices have driven the private sector to optimize fuel efficiency of heavy-haul trains. On the other hand, the public sector has not kept up, since the subsidy grew to offset increased fuel prices, and no basic research is being funded with EMD not in the passenger car business.
Trains can and will lose their "environmentally friendly" badge if research does not continue to bring out more efficeint engines, transmission systems, and reduce vehicle weight. Vehicle weight are basically determined by safety requirements, and if same safety requirement were imposed on road vehicles, the train will beat anything hands down.
AEM7
the subsidy grew to offset increased fuel prices, and no basic research is being funded
Personally I am opposed to transport subsidies. I don't see why the Government should encourage people to travel more. Given the environmental damage caused by all forms of transport, I would like all modes to be taxed on a comparable basis.
Not really. Public transport fits well into the public sector. Look at the wasteful competition in the early days of NYC subway. We may not like political decisions, but some kind of government regulation seems necessary in the public interest.
All I was saying was that I don't see why any form of transport, be it public or private, should have a subsidy. If anything it should be taxed just like other goods or services only more so because of its undesirable social and environmental costs.
I don't think that transport should generally be taxed at a higher rate than any other service. Specific negative impacts should be charged for.
Pollution, greenhouse effect, danger, noise, to name a few. And arguably depletion of scarce resources (fuel, land).
Do they apply to all forms of transport?
Yes but to varying extents. Bicycles could be an exception.
I don't think that transport should generally be taxed at a higher rate than any other service. Specific negative impacts should be charged for.
Agreed! It might be hard to organize, and political suicide, but that's what I would do as a benevolent dictator.
Unlike physical fitness, I don't see that transport is something that governments should actively encourage with subsidies.
No. Fucking bicycles are the bane of humanity. They are fucked up and are for fucked up people. First of all they fucking take over the sidewalks so transit riders cannot walk to transit stop safely. Then they go out onto the road and snarl up traffic, so everyone else in automobiles has to brake and then re-accelerate, contributing to pollution. Whose fault is that. Then bicycles are manufactred with aluminium. Do you have any idea how you get the aluminium. Do you know how much energy it takes to make that frame. If a steel frame, do you know how much coal is burned smelting that steel? Bicycles are for idiots. They have no place in the city. No place in the country. No place anywhere. Bicycles are a public health hazard and should be banned. They are outdated crappy 19th Century French technology. No one likes them. They suck.
AEM7
I think you have established that bicycles do have social and environmental costs, so let's tax them accordingly!
Isn't everything a question of cost-attribution? I used to think like you, until I realized that in a system, cost attribution (especially for long-lasting capital assets) is usually arbitrary, depending on which costs you consider sunk. So even though in principle (and on the micro level) charging for those who causes externalities or "uses up" resources works fine, it doesn't work when you're dealing with a large system -- large economic system, or just a large engineered system (such as our transportation system).
Take for example. Highways are a shared asset, but trucks do more damage to pavements while bicycles operate at far below the optimal speed required to optimize highway capacity. So, in congested freeways, bicycles should be charged for "using up" highway capacity? In the time it takes a bike to clear a mile section, probably about 100 cars can clear the same section. On the other hand, if everybody biked, then it's the car that goes faster which screws up the capacity, because they need the "gap" ahead and behind it in between all the bikes, for safety. It's the same argument re: Amtrak versus freight trains.
AEM7
So in practice it may be impossible to devise an entirely fair taxation method, but should that stop us from trying?
Meanwhile can we refrain from subsidizing activities that are not inherently beneficial to society, such as transport.
Decades of economic research will not convince a Tory, but it doesn't stop us from trying:
Economic principle No.1 -- In systems with unlimited economies of scale (i.e. marginal cost decreases as supply increases), marginal cost pricing will not recover capital costs. This will lead to mergers and acquisitions, and ultimately bankruptcy for the single monopoly operator when the assets wear out and there is no capital replenishment to renew the assets.
Observation -- Transport markets have practically unlimited economies of scale. Exception is seen in major metropolitan areas, where the economies of scale have been exhausted, e.g. the NYCT Lexington Line, the Cross-Bronx Expressway, JFK Airport.
Result -- Transport markets everywhere require subsidy to function.
Envision a world in which people own private property, but in order to get to another property (say, that of your friend or your employer), you must negotiate separately a "right of passage" agreement with each and every property owner between you and the other property. That would make a very inconvenient life indeed!
So private companies will spring up and assemble properties in a linear fashion and charge rates for the "right of passage". These are called turnpikes. As long as the maintenance cost stays low and no capital investment is needed, these turnpike operators will collect rent from all who choose to travel, and there will be no problem.
Next comes the streetcar. However, the maintenance and capital costs of the streetcars are so high such that they could never be recovered based on extracting rent from travellers; the traveller would choose not to travel before the streetcar company is able to charge enough revenue to even meet its fully allocated capital costs. So, by your logic, we ought to all go back to walking on turnpikes and paying a tuppence toll every mile.
Now, for your philosophical question as to whether transport is inherently good for mankind (or humankind, if you prefer). That is a matter of debate. However, I will make one observation. As soon as transport was invented, humans have been transporting themselves. Transport is not a result of government subsidy. Transport is an end in itself, and the human desire to go places is so strong that it has caused government subsidy to be made available.
Technically, wouldn't he be a Whig? Real Tories are a bunch of Consensus paternalists.
ultimately bankruptcy for the single monopoly operator
The single monopoly operator can charge what the traffic will bear, and use some of the proceeds to renew the assets.
Transport markets have practically unlimited economies of scale.
Railways and toll roads with spare capacity do sometimes run at a profit. But if they can't pay their way, then I don't see why they should be kept running at a loss at the public expense. The Beeching Report comes to mind.
Result -- Transport markets everywhere require subsidy to function.
In most cases they do receive subsidies, but I say that they don't deserve to and they ought to pay their way.
the traveller would choose not to travel before the streetcar company is able to charge enough revenue
If that be the case, let the streetcar line close down; they should have thought of that before building the line.
whether transport is inherently good for mankind
Travel can be enjoyable, but that doesn't make transport worthy of subsidy at the expense of other activities.
Why should they? If I became the monopoly operator of a transportation facility, I will just keep charging what the market will bear and pocket the money, and when the facility is decrepit I will simply shut down the facility.
Railways and toll roads with spare capacity do sometimes run at a profit. But if they can't pay their way, then I don't see why they should be kept running at a loss at the public expense. The Beeching Report comes to mind.
Beeching report is actually substantially different from the argument you are making. Beeching Report suggested that the railway network be rationalized by losing some of duplicative and lighly-patronized lines. Beeching wasn't perfect but he did remove many lines which were not necessarily needed so that resources could be focused on the few remaining lines that had high patronage or had potential to consolidate markets. Beeching was the "Conrail of the UK", I guess.
Beeching never made the argument that every line must make money.
Also, it is not clear how you define if a line makes money or not. First of all, how do you divide the revenue between connecting traffic? How much of it goes to the branch line and how much of it goes to the main line? Secondly how do you define line revenue? Does increased real estate values along the lineside constitute line revenue? And if so, as line operator how would you recover such revenue? Would you suggest that those who live near train stations ought to have a "rail tax" applied to their property, because their real estate value has increased as a result of the proximity of the rail service?
If that be the case, let the streetcar line close down; they should have thought of that before building the line.
I think that the Pictish Kingdom in the 1200's might have been a good place for you to be. They had no streetcars, people did not travel, and you defended yourself against rival tribes and wild animals.
Travel can be enjoyable, but that doesn't make transport worthy of subsidy at the expense of other activities.
Let us know what other activities you mean. Food, Education, Healthcare, Entertainment, Manufacturing... which of those are not subsidized by government in one way or another?
Why kill the goose that lays the golden egg? Wouldn't it be more profitable to renew the assets and keep it going?
Beeching never made the argument that every line must make money.
Not exactly, but the general idea was to close those lines that could never make a profit.
I think that the Pictish Kingdom in the 1200's might have been a good place for you to be.
No thanks! I like to have a government that will look after my essential needs such as defence and health care.
Food, Education, Healthcare, Entertainment, Manufacturing
I would include things that are commonly believed to be good for you, such as a healthy diet and plenty of exercise.
Not exactly, but the general idea was to close those lines that could never make a profit
That would mean closing all of the lines. Back to square one . . .
That would mean closing all of the lines.
Not the case in the UK. InterCity regularly showed a profit (mainly due to the East Coast and Great Western Main Lines) and Railfreight made a profit in every year after 1985/6. IIRC, Network SouthEast also ended up in profit.
"That would mean closing all of the lines."
"Not the case in the UK....."
The way the Beeching process worked *would* have led to closing all the lines (except perhaps the very crowded London commuter lines) eventually, if the process had been continued to completion.
The reason is that every line had overhead costs allocated to it. When it was closed, those overheads were transferred to the other lines, pushing some of them into deficit. When *they* closed, the overheads wre shifted again, and so on. of course, in theory the overheads should have been cut as the system shrank, but in practice we know that doesn't happen, or at least not fast enough.
In practice, common sense prevailed, and government stopped when the network had been pruned to a substantial but not ridiculous extent. Similar things have happened in other European countries, perhaps less systematically. The Beeching plan succeeded in its objectives, namely: (1) to remove rural lines that virtually no-one used any more but which still had to be maintained to a reasonable safety standard; and (2) to remove duplicate routes. We could still argue legitimately that in some cases the wrong duplicate was chosen for retention.
Did you ever asked yourself how the books were "cooked"? Do you know how many InterCity trains were hauled with "Provincial" locomotives? For that matter, Network SouthEast locomotives. Do you mean you never saw NSE Class 50's on the Waterloo-Exeter-Plymouth run?
More significantly, did you know that the maintenance cost of the Newark Flat Crossing was hived off to Provincial, because "if Provincial hadn't been there, the ECML would not have a Newark Flat Crossing"?
AEM7
In the final year of InterCity operation as "InterCity", the profit/loss numbers were something like:
ECML +$55 million
WCML +$25 million
MML (I have no idea)
GWML (I have no idea)
Sleeper -$35 million
XC -$40 million
------------------------
Total +$5 million
Source: 2000 Conversation with ICEC representative.
So you'll be in favour of cutting all Sleepers and all CrossCountry service?
Not many sleepers survived privatisation anyway. The few survivors are the only Scotrail trains that come further south of the border than Carlisle.
Actually, I had a bunch of bikes, and I was in a bunch of biking accidents. Who can go to college at a certain institution on the River Cam without a bike? That place is biketown. That's probably why I grew to hate it. Now that I think of it, there's even a documented case of moronic drivers trying to run someone on a bike over in my college days.
The other bike accidents I was involved in includes one in the rain, when my brakes failed and I ran into the back of another bike shoving the poor women forward about 2 feet; and one where I ran into a lamppost and bent my handlebar out of shape.
Then there was the one when my girlfriend was hit from behind by a biker biking on the sidewalk, when Cambridge (Massachusetts) city ordinance specifically prohibits cycling on sidewalk.
I think bikes are fucked up only because of bikers in this town. They think they own the sidewalk. They don't. Bikes are vehicles and belong ON THE HIGHWAY.
AEM7
....or on dedicated bikeways. Where such exist (as in Holland) thgey provide a very energy-efficient mode of transportation for short journays. I agree that cyclists do not belong on the sidewalk, and the fact that they do cycle there is responsible for the kind of anti-bike vituperation that AEM7 produced a message or two back in this thread.
I also went to the said institution on the Cam (the English one), and there bikes are the dominant mode of traffic in the town, and thus can keep the cars at bay by their sheer weight of numbers.
As a human invention to improve human mobility at the least cost to the sustainable environment, I believe the bicycle has perhaps the best benefit/cost ratio of anything the human race has invented.
I agree with that. Using only human power a bicycle increases your speed tenfold over walking! I think that's a pretty amazing number.
I sometimes wonder how life would have been different if bicycles had been invented a hundred years before the automobile instead of being developed at about the same time.
Mark
If you want to read the whole thing yourself, here's the story. Free registration is required, though.
The Hard Way
Mark
The energy used to make a bike is way less than is saved by using it instead of driving.
But you have some good points:
1. It's illegal to ride on the sidewalk but people do it anyway, endagering pedestrians.
2. On the streets, they rarely actually slow down cars. But bicicylists do endanger themselves. I lost a lot of enthusiasm for bicycling as a mode of transportation after (1) being sideswiped (in Boston) and (2) being hit square on from behind (in Cambridge).
You shoulda been around when horses dominated.
Mark
"Then they go out onto the road and snarl up traffic, so everyone else in automobiles has to brake and then re-accelerate, contributing to pollution."
Yeah, bikes cause congestion, not all those cars on the road.
"Then bicycles are manufactred with aluminium. Do you have any idea how you get the aluminium. Do you know how much energy it takes to make that frame. If a steel frame, do you know how much coal is burned smelting that steel?"
A typical bike weighs, oh, 25, maybe 30 pounds. Even a tank of a bike will weigh at most 50 pounds. A car can easily weigh 50 times the heaviest bike, an SUV 100 times the weight of a heavy bike. Pack them to capacity, say 6 people to a car and the car still weighs five to ten times as much as a bike per person. Even transit vehicles weigh in at least five to ten times heavier then a bike (300 pounds per person using a 90,000 pound vehicle with 300 people on board). So, yes, simply based on material consumption, bicycles are far, far, less efficient. As far as the materials themselves, I could be wrong here, but I believe aluminum and steel are extensively used in pretty much all vehicles, including cars and tranist vehicles.
Aluminum is refined from ores such as bauxite using the Hall-Héroult process, a form of electrolysis. It consumes large amounts of elelctricity. Not surprisingly, the Niagara Falls area, with its cheap abundant hydroelectric power, became the world's first big aluminum refining area. That's also why the aircraft industry became big in Washington state; the Grand Coulee dam encouraged aluminum refining, which is of course needed for aircraft manufacture.
Mark
And I'd say that walking has the least negative impact of all.
I’m a great advocate of relatively high density housing mixed with services and recreation areas (it was a bit further to walk, but Astoria Park was close).
Just as private transport fits well into the private sector. Privatise the Motorways and spend the funds raised on rail!
I have no objection to toll roads, or congestion charges.
The problem with annual permits is that they're all-or-nothing -- once I have an annual permit, there's no disincentive for me to drive on any given day.
It could be owned and operated by a government appointed body – but make a profit!
Please cite examples. I am sure every government that operates public transportation will be willing to jump on this bandwagon. No profitable public transportation exists that I know of, save perhaps the Haneda Airport Monorail in Japan and taxicabs.
I believe that most of the railways in Tokyo run at a profit. Some are privately owned; others are publicly owned.
If the competition weren't so highly subsidized (directly and indirectly), many transit systems would be profitable.
Arti
Please cite examples. I am sure every government that operates public transportation will be willing to jump on this bandwagon. No profitable public transportation exists that I know of, save perhaps the Haneda Airport Monorail in Japan and taxicabs.
Blood congestion can lead to blood clotting, and ultimately to death.
It's in the best interest of governments and citizens to have a transportation network that gets people and goods to their destinations as quickly and effiecntly as possible.
Not if it means diverting resources from other forms of economic activity, which is the effect of subsidies.
It was often said that better telecommunications (including telephones and inter-computer communications) would reduce the need for physical transport, so to some extent telecoms are a substitute for transport. Are telecommunications subsidized? They are another form of "lifeblood" but without the same detrimental effect on the environment.
Public transport subsidies have the effect of redirecting resources towards the economic activity of public transport!
telecommunications can be just as environmentally damaging
Have you any evidence of that?
Let us tax or subsidize telecommunications based on their environmental damage when compared with other activities.
I urge you to recall the blackout of last year and all of the people that were consequently unable to ride NYC subway trains. Now picture every one of those people behind the wheel of a single-occupancy motor vehicle. Public transport has the effect of minimizing potential traffic jams such as that one, and as I was trying to say, get people to work faster and more efficiently and thus preventing the loss of billions of dollars in lost work time.
telecommunications can be just as environmentally damaging
Have you any evidence of that?
WADR, I must challenge you to prove your stance in regards to transport subsidies before I provide evidence of what I said "can be" environmentally damaging. The more telecommuting, the more electricity needs to be generated to fuel WWW activity.
I am not arguing against public transport; only that I don't see why any form of transport deserves a subsidy.
I must challenge you to prove your stance
I have already made my arguments, and neither one of us can "prove" what is ultimately only an opinion.
The more telecommuting, the more electricity needs to be generated to fuel WWW activity.
Yes but does telecommuting use as much energy as physical commuting? How many BTUs or kilowatt hours does each use?
The electricity consumption of telecommunications and computers is pretty negligible alongside that for transportation (rail, road, water and air) which is one of the major consumers of energy, alongside heating (and cooling) of buildings. And, of course, with good energy-efficient architectural design, some of that energy used for computers can *also* heat the buildings!
I don’t know about British phone bills, but my US phone bill has taxes and surcharges up the wazoo!
Public transport operated subsidy-free until a competing form of transport started receiving large subsidies.
(A slight simplification, true, but it will suffice.)
So your solution is to reduce the amount of blood in the body?
Not if it means diverting resources from other forms of economic activity, which is the effect of subsidies
The rate of return in productivty is greater than the amount invested in transportation. If that weren't the case, we'd have no economy, period. Example, Hartsfield Airport in Atlanta at its current state (not including current expansion project, which, BTW, is costing $5.4 billion to construct) cost around $1-2 billion dollars to build over three decades, but its economic impact is over $15 billion per YEAR on the city. The costs needed to build this piece of transportation infrastructure is a drop in the bucket compared to the return. Do you still believe that the inital "subsidies" to that airport would have been better spent elsewhere?
If Hartsfield airport is so good for the local economy (which I do not doubt) it should be able to pay for itself.
Thanks very much! If we were allowed to talk about politics, I would not entirely agree with your characterization.
"The use of quantity of money as a target has not been a success. I'm not sure that I would as of today push it as hard as I once did."
- Friedman, M., in Financial Times (7 June 2003).
Look at Bush: his foreign policy (excuse the hyperbole) has managed to pyth off most of the rest of the world!
First of all, your original premise that the government should try to encourage less movement of people will never work because when people and goods need to get places, they WILL get to their destinations, no matter what. Civilization has been based on this for 1000s of years, so you aren’t going to change that through some mandate.
Transportation is an INVESTMENT in PRODUCTIVTY for the region it serves. Let’s say there was a community with no transportation. Someone needs to deliver goods they manufacture across town to the store. Do you think it’s cost effective for that one company to build its own mode of transportation to deliver only their product to their retailer? Should their employees blaze their own trails from their homes to get to work? No, that company probably would get together with all of the other businesses in the community and together, they would foot the cost of building some mode of transportation that all of them could use, thus reducing the cost of business and increasing productivity for everyone.
In the real world, every community already has a convenient entity where everyone has come together to share the costs of things. It’s called government and the taxes collected go a long way in helping reduce the costs of transportation for everyone and increasing the productivity of the community. People complain about money-losing interstates. Yeah, well, let’s see how much money in terms of productivity is lost if everyone had to take two lane surface roads between distant cities. Let’s see the 5 million NY’ers who take the subway everyday walk to work from their homes. Imagine if that NYCT strike a couple of decades ago was made permanent. I’m sure all the money you save by not giving the MTA its subsidies could be used for more productive things, right? And please name those more productive things.
You can be all anti-government you want to be, but if there is only one area that the government should be involved in, it’s ensuring its citizens have the best transportation network in order for then to conduct whatever business they have. Even the most ultra right-wing nut job should agree with that.
Rob, I'm curious as to where you get these numbers from.
Not necessarily critical, and I am just interested, although I am typically skeptical of such numbers because of how easy they are to cook. Now, without Hartsfield it's likely that Atlanta today would look like Birmingham, AL or Savannah, GA, so Hartsfield was the right decision and probably would have paid off whether it was public or private. But how do you know that it gives the city $15 billion per year? How do you know that's ONLY the effect of Hartsfield and not all of the other investment that had occured because of Hartsfield? Now, if you consider another ATL knock off, the Raleigh-Durham Int'l Airport -- has that been successful? What happened when American Airlines pulled out? I still have one of their SABRE terminals labelled with "PROPERTY OF AMERICAN AIRLINES -- RDU". Local economics is complex and it's hard to attribute economic success to a specific investment, even though the politicans like to do it. For example off the top of my head I can think of other things/entities that has contributed to Atlanta's success: Norfolk Southern, CNN, Coca-Cola, MARTA...
AEM7
Scroll down towards the bottom to the section "Economic Impact" They actually have two sets of data listed in two sections, one say $18.7 B and the other says $16.8 B.
How do you know that's ONLY the effect of Hartsfield and not all of the other investment that had occured because of Hartsfield?
That's exactly the type of thing that counts towards that number. A company moves to Atlanta because of the worldwide connections ATL provides would count towards that impact number since they wouldn't be moving here if it wasn't for the airport. That link also gives the direct payroll ecomonic imapact as well.
Rob, this is the fallacy of the input-output model. It sounds like a huge return on investment when you say an airport costs $2 billion to construct and now generates $15 billion for the local economy, but you cannot calculate ROI based on these numbers. ROI can only be calculated when you have net investment cost and net operating profit, without any of the "multiplier" effects since those are simply transfers between different agents.
Now it is a valid argument to say that ATL re-generated the local economy by (1) attracting new investment, (2) creating jobs, (3) the payroll generated a trickle-down effect. But those are not part of the ATL ROI on strict economic terms. In fact the ATL ROI could well be negative even though the overall effect on society is positive. When determining whether something should be built, you need a cost-benefit analysis, which is NOT based on ROI nor based on the "impact on local economy". It should be an NPV analysis based on whether the direct benefits of whatever you build justify the costs. In this case the direct benefit is necessarily measured in tangibles like: profit from air operations, appreciation of land values, etc.
If you want to include the "attracting investment" factor, you will have to include all the costs associated with the new investment (e.g. cost to build office tower, hotel), and all the benefits that those generates (e.g. office production in $ terms, hotel production in $ terms).
When doing NPV analyses, you can never include the "feel good" factor (i.e. the trickle-down effect of I/O multipliers).
AEM7
Just wondering, do you work in an industrial or systems engineering field?
That is a good point. South East trains, the operating company that runs suburban services into London from Kent, pointed this out in a customer newsletter I read last year. They have a fixed infrastructure, and new trains (and come to that new staff) take a while to acquire, but an upturn in London's economy leads directly to an increase in the number of commuters they are expected to carry. Result, obviously, overcrowding.
Energy efficiency is a big deal at NYCT -- witness the hybrid buses, regen braking, solar panels at Stillwell, etc.
But ... if the Tory leader Michael Howard just stands up and says "We'll cut expenditure on trains and increase it on roads", he has two problems. (1) No-one believes anything any politician says any more. (2) He will alienate a lot of rail commuters in London and its suburbs, and also alienate environmentalists who don't want lots of new roads built.
A more subtle approach is to drip-feed the public over the next year with a series of "objective research reports" that show that all kinds of things the pro-road lobby doesn't like are really bad, and don't do the good they are supposed to. Like trains. Like speed humps. Like speed cameras. Then the Tories can say "these are objective research reports that show the government has it all wrong". Ask: who funded the research?
The Daily Telegraph report talked about the high-speed trains on (for example) the London-Edinburgh route, not trains in general. And it talked about comparative costs per seat-mile. Ask: what proportion of five-seater cars are actually carrying five people at any given moment? 1%? What is the average occupancy rate of trains on the London-Edinburgh run? Over 50%? And how many commuter trains are carrying a lot *more* people than they have seats for - an occupancy rate of say 125%?
Anyway, one of his favourite 'stock-in-phrase' arguments is that motorists pay x-billion pounds per year in fuel tax, car tax, and duty on new cars, and therefore they have a right to expect this money to be repaid in the road building and maintenance.
To this, I respond:
(1) He is quoting DoT road building figures, not local authority road building/maintenance.
(2) He is not including indirect costs such as police, traffic wardens, courts, and hospitals.
What would be really nice would be some data to back this up. Any thoughts?
I find the "answer is just 12 feet away" advertisements extremely depressing, not least because the rail industry is in such disarray that they are unable to issue a rejoinder, something along the lines of "the answer is just 12 feet away" but this time showing a railway line.
But whatever they are, I think the counter arguement is just 6 feet down. I'm talking about the 43,000 graves we have to dig each year because of traffic accidents. Transit is just plain safer.
Mark
1) surely lanes in both directions are needed, thats 24 feet of road folks.
2) roads create congestion. The more roadspace built, the more car journeys people make. These extra lanes will prove to be an inadequate solution.
3) What happens when people get to the ends of the motorways. Road congestion in cities is also a serious problem.
For a truly depressing afternoon, try the website of the "Association of British Drivers" The phrase "You’ll take my steering wheel when you pry it from my cold dead fingers!" comes to mind.
Before anyone tries to ask me awkward questions, please note that I am 37 years old, hold no driving licence, have never needed one, and have no intention of ever getting one.
I'm 25, holds a Massachusetts drivers' licence, needed one because of an ex-girlfriend from Ohio.
PA also offers ID cards for people who don't drive or can't drive. I call it the "drinking license."
Mark
Mark
SeedyTeeyay has a piss-poor record of service, usefulness, you name it. And where they COULD have pulled their musical schlung out of their posterior, we get BRT ... BUZZ-BUZZ! Wrong answer. It's going to be a turd, mark my words. And it's a damned SHAME. If I could even get RUBBER tires to take me where I needed to get, I'd DEAL with it though I'd prefer cast-iron tires personally. :)
but all we got is "Bruno's Bus Company" ... agggggggh~! :(
Might be an improvement if they became "Bruno's Bus & Pizza Inc." ;-P
The creation of Usenet proved that maxim false, long ago.
As for foolish questions, there has never been "no such thing" as them. To prevent them, God created encyclopoediae and search engines . . .
Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer's mother asked the interesting question: "why would a person ever want a computer"
A brief overview of newsgroups and message boards breathes new validity into that question.
A brief overview of newsgroups and message boards breathes new validity into that question.
And this thread provides a pretty clear "no" answer :)
The meaning of that can change depending on the activity.
Bodybuilding.com's forums occasionally have some interesting, any-topic-goes discussions, but by and large the maturity level of the discourse is somewhat low. It doesn't help matters that the typical member is a skinny, acne-faced 16-year-old who recently managed to curl a 10-pound dumbbell and immediately started thinking of himself as the next Arnold.
Go to your local public library an check out this book. "America's Highways 1776-1976" It was published by the United States Department of Transportation as part of the Bicentennial.
You might even be able to still get a copy for free from The Federal Highway Administration.
Request your copy today while quantities last! Call 301-577-0818, fax your order to 301-577-1421, or email report.center@fhwa.dot.gov.
John
Chuck
But this is the only thread posted 3 days later I can find
Subtalk
-Chris
-RJM
;)
Your pal,
Fred
If you don't want the public to have access to your writings, you're in the wrong place.
What the hell are you talking about.
-Chris
Then you'll understand.
Or go to library and borrow the book.
Amazing how education has changed over the years. When I was in school 1984 was required reading.
PS: You're sitting currently near one. And here you can find the tool:
http://www.autonomy.com/
don't worry, he'll be the only one watching. ;) hahaha
And what does George Orwell have to do with subways?
I know the original poster is a troll and it's very off topic but I have to respond to this because Orwell's book 1984 (where Big Brother is from) always reminds me of Arnines!! As a teen in the late 60's I took a trip into the city and happened to buy 1984 at Macy's Herald Square. I started to read the book going home on the subway (an R1-9) and by the time I got to Jamaica 179th Street to get the Bee Line to Hempstead (the N-6's ancester) I had already read several chapters and was into the book. And when I think of 1984 I always associate it with that ride, reading it on the wicker seat to Jamaica!!
That's troll talk all right.
Glad to know that I'm not on yer list, what with not being from Dragonball but briefly mentioned in the LOTR-ROTK appendices . . . not that I care, troll.
Continuing on this level of diatribe, can you now deny that you're a troll?
Oh, and "pig" is inaccurate since I do not work for a police force.
OSAMA BUSH SADDAM WMD JIHAD AL-JAZEERA CHENEY GORE KERRY WTC PENTAGON ATTACK DESTROY
BIG SISTER IS WATCHING!
BIG DADDY IS WATCHING!
Your pal,
Bubba
This afternoon, I saw this at the library in Woodside. I snagged it because I thought it looked funny. As you can clearly see in the first picture below, it shows the cover of the What's What on QPTV magazine. Here's a shot of the cover.
Here's the "About Our Cover" Description
Crazy, eh? They think they can take what is obviously a screenshot from MSTS, and pass it off as a photograph! Ha! I can see the overhead wires!
But who made the screenshot?
I bet Microsoft lawers are scheming right now over exactly how they can sue over this...
Anynews on the return of light rail to routes 23 & 56 is appreciated.
How about changing the law so that it says that neither SEPTA, the city nor the state is responsible for damage to double-parked cars. Then put dragon-teeth bumpers on the streetcars.
Double-parking is the poorest excuse for not reversing bustitution of streetcars. Truly pathetic and shows that the city has zero backbone when it comes to law enforcement.
I can't stand the ignorance of automobile drivers, when it comes to Mass transit!
I love the way they have to back up when a bus makes a sharp corner turn. They are supposed to stay behind a white line in the street, but who pays attention to that?
Chuck Greene
Light Rail Infrastructure Improvements - Routes 23 & 56 ($189,000,000). This project provides for the restoration of light rail service to Routes 23 and 56.
Light Rail Vehicle Purchase - Routes 23 & 56 ($130,000,000). This project provides for the purchase of vehicles for SEPTA’s light rail routes.
Will it happen? They've been committed to restoring these routes (and route 15) since they officially abandoned the others, like 53 and 60. My guess is that it is better than 50-50 they'll come back, unless there is another huge fiscal crisis, or whatever.
Route 53 is another story. This was pretty much just a neighborhood trolley line with light passenger loading and sparse headways. I'm a bit surprised it lasted as long as it did.
I suppose Route 50 falls into the same category as 23, with narrow streets and mucho congestion. At least 23 has some support in Chestnut Hill where the trolleys and Belgian block pavement are appreciated.
And the free highways aren't. What hypocrisy.
and with the exception of regional rail, don't care to make change
Still waiting for change on that end. For all the money the SVM is supposed to cost, they could have electrified to Reading, Allentown, Newtown and other places and the old diesel service out of Reading Terminal would not be missed . . .
HAH!
Oh, they've made changes alright, and they tend to shaft Regional Rail just as much as anything else... the only difference is that the lines run so infrequently, it's easy enough to see a SLIGHT dip in ridership as just cause to eliminate some stations...
The ONLY change to the RRD operations I can't fault SEPTA for is the elimination of service to Parkesburg. AMTRAK wanted to hike up the lease on the tracks past Thorn interlocking, and SEPTA wasn't having it. However, they'd reportedly also turned down an offer to BUY the rights to the track from Philly to Harrisburg. BAD move.
As far as the newer stops:
Churchman's Crossing: Paind for by State of Delaware
Baldwin: This was dropped, proposed for re-build, dropped again, and re-proposed for rebuild HOW many times now? It was supposed to be opened THREE YEARS AGO!
Eastwick: The stop was supposed to be re-opened at Island Avenue last year, with concrete high platforms and a private driveway for bus service, direct connections to the 36 trolley, and parking. WHY they leave the "temporary" stop at 84th Street (the ORIGINAL name) is beyond me. Mind you, Eastwick is the RRD equivalent of Millbourne, only less remote and thus more used. But it's an all-wood affair that looks like someone just wanted to get the monkey off their back.
University City: Unsure of when they ACTUALLY started to build this. Civic Center, 70th Street, and 84th Street were proposed for the R1. University City was to be finished in 1994... and work was SUPPOSED to start on it in 1991, but the stop didn't open until 1995.
Thorndale: About the only stop SEPTA gave to the RRD that I have no gripe with... except the outbound platform, which is 1) low level with Mini-high, while the INBOUND side is full-length high, and 2) Is not realy needed, as trains cross the interlock BEFOE entering the station, and thus terminate at the inbound patform. Unless SEPTA plans to go further west, I see no need for that outbound platform. AMTRAK doesn't stop here, and while the operators are trained and qualified to run to CORK interlocking near Lancaster Station (so why not go REVENUE that far?), I don't think they've done so since the end f service to Parkesburg.
And from sources within the company, only a few station cloures made int he past decade were worthwhile. Most of those were on the R7 Trenton, and were due to the seedy nature of the nearby neighborhoods (Wissinoming, Andalusia (which was a remote station partly in the woods) and the Fankord stops), the only other ones justified were the danger-prone Lamokin, and Fellwick (used solely by employees at a nearby nursing home, both were permanent flag stops).
And lest I forget, they've clipped service on the R8 Chestnut Hill West from hourly to every 90 minutes weekends, and from half-hourly to hourly weekdays mid-day. They recently increased Sunday R8 Fox Chase headways from two hours to hourly, but then cut it back to 90 minutes Then there's the whole R6 Cynwyd business. The last time RRD service was INCREASED was twice in 1997. The addition of trains on the R6 Cynwyd, and the increase from two-hourly to hourly weekend frequencies on the R3 Elwyn line.
And at least twice, SEPTA has threatened to axe Allegheny, Angora, 49th Street, Crestmont, the entire Cynwyd and Airport branches, and North Philadelphia on the R8.
The 23 has problems of the citizens in Germantown not knowing that double-parking is illegal, while people in South Philadelphia want their precious parking spaces that the trolleys don't leave much room for. Say I, equip the trolleys with car-catching bumpers, and let them drag the cars all the way to the other end of Philadelphia. And if the car owners complain, run THEM down with the 23 trolley as well.
I can only GUESS where they'd run trolleys from if those lines were reinstated. I suppose Frankford could always add trolleys to its roster of diesel buses and ETBs. Southern once DID have trolleys, and those were converted to bus (or in the 29 and 79's case, to ETB, THEN bustituted). The 23 could get away with Callowhill, but NOT the 56. They'd need to either add trolley bays to Midvale, or reopen Germantown as an active depot. Luzerne has been sold.
As far as the other trolley lines...
47: No idea.
60: I think it died as a trolley before SEPTA's time, that or they scrapped it early on. I was born in 1982, and it's been a bus all my natural life.
53: Mentioned already, not a good headway for a trolley line. Understandably so.
50: Part of some route reorganization... they first cut out service to Lawndale (Knorr St Loop, the line probably ONCE went to Fox Chase), then bustituted the line before eliminating it. Similarly, they cut the South Philadelphia part of Route 5 (yet Southern District still has their claws on it), and merged the two halves into the current Route 57; this all went down in 1992.
6: I recall its last days as a trolley, as some generations-long friends of my family live on Sommers Road not too far from Ogontz & Washington Lane. I REALLY do not know why they cut this one. I think this may have been just after the Woodland Carbarn fire.
Until 1956, Route 6 was also tied to other lines via Route 26, Olney Avenue, which connected with Route 50 at Rising Sun Avenue. Perhaps a case could have been made for restoring trackage on Olney for Route 6 access if 50 was retained, but that would've been a real stretch in the SEPTA world of the '70s and '80s.
The 60 went in 1977 due to a persistent shortage of cars since the Woodland Fire.[Also the crappy maintenance didn't help]. The Toronto cars that ran on this line went to the 6 and 56.
The 53 lasted until the late 80's when the Wayne Ave Bridge over the R8 tracks developed structural problems. The trolleys stopped running, then the bridge was replaced [without tracks].
The 50 once ran to Fox Chase, then it was cut back to a rush hour only extension to Knorr St [another rush hour run was to 4th and Ritner] then the line went bus in '77. In the 80's, certain parts of the line was rerouted [such as the route was taken off of 6th and Oxford sts, then rerouted straight down Germantown Ave, between 6th and 4th Sts.]. As you mentioned, this line died in 1993 in the South Philly bus reoganization.
The 6 became bus in 1985. The acess trackage from Luzerne was deteriorating, and SEPTA was planning to tear down the original Olney Loop and replace it with the current structure. As a sweetner to riders, when the line went bus, they replaced the old PCC's with 1 year old Neoplan buses [8435-49]. The Route 6 riders never complained about the changeover.
Actually, Route 53 trolley service was suspended about 1980 when the Wayne Avenue bridge over the R8 line was torn out and rebuilt WITH tracks. Trolleys again ran beginning in 1982, but the line was bussed, permanently as it turned out, in 1984, supposedly because of poor track conditions on much of Wayne Avenue. The new bridge was used by trolleys for just two years (!)
>>>The 6 became bus in 1985.
Route 6 lasted as a rail line until early 1986, though it might have been bussed temporarily before then. I rode a farewell fantrip right near the end. No doubt those nearly new Neoplans helped melt any opposition to the trolleys being replaced.
On a good day, it takes 52 minutes from 242 to South Ferry. My worst trip ever took 67 minutes from end to end.
And it would be simple matter to calculate whether skip-stop saves riders time - which number (for each station) is greater - the number of minutes saved by having skip-stop, or the number of minutes between rush hour trains (i.e. the expected additional wait incurred by having one of the two lines skip the station)? Then do a weighted average over each station times the number of riders, and there's your answer.
You are being rational! All regular readers of this board know that New Yorkers looooove their expresses, regardless of whether expresses actually save them any time or not. And the 1/9 skipstop is that line's equivalent of expresses.
Anyone who uses that portion of the line (except those from 231 street and 242) hate it! We don't like having trains blow thru the station while we are standing in 2 degree weather (the station house can hold about 12 people so that is not much of an option) or sweltering in 98 degree heat. Or just plain wasting time standing on a platform waiting for a train that will save us NO time. I'm sure my councilman hasn't riden the subway in years if ever, people like that are the ONLY one who like skip stop.
In other words, many more people transfer to the express that's there than to the express that isn't.
My other learning experience was when I would get off the 1 to get the A at 168, not a wise move. By the time you get up to the A and wait for its few trains per hour, even in rush hour
(Sorry, the link inside the post doesn't work anymore.)
RIP 9 train...
I am sure he was really smart.
J/K
But he couldn't put air conditioners in the trains yet? :p
Roads of rails called Wagonways were being used in Germany as early as 1550. These primitive railed roads consisted of wooden rails over which horse-drawn wagons or carts moved with greater ease than over dirt roads. Wagonways were the beginnings of modern railroads.
By 1776, iron had replaced the wood in the rails and wheels on the carts. Wagonways evolved into Tramways and spread though out Europe. Horses still provided all the pulling power. In 1789, Englishman, William Jessup designed the first wagons with flanged wheels. The flange was a groove that allowed the wheels to better grip the rail, this was an important design that carried over to later locomotives.
The invention of the steam engine was critical to the invention of the modern railroad and trains. In 1803, a man named Samuel Homfray decided to fund the developement of a steam-powered vehicle to replace the horse-drawn carts on the tramways. Richard Trevithick (1771-1833) built that vehicle, the first steam engine tramway locomotive. On February 22, 1804, the locomotive hauled a load of 10 tons of iron, 70 men and five extra wagons the 9 miles between the ironworks at Pen-y-Darron in the town of Merthyr Tydfil, Wales to the bottom of the valley called Abercynnon. It took about two hours.
In 1821, Englishman, Julius Griffiths was the first person to patent a passenger road locomotive.
In September, 1825, the Stockton & Darlington Railroad Company began as the first railroad to carry both goods and passengers on regular schedules using locomotives designed by English inventor, George Stephenson. Stephenson's locomotive pulled six loaded coal cars and 21 passenger cars with 450 passengers over 9 miles in about one hour.
George Stephenson is considered to be the inventor of the first steam locomotive engine for railways. Richard Trevithick's invention is considered the first tramway locomotive, however, it was a road locomotive, designed for a road and not for a railroad. Stephenson was extremely poor growing up and received little formal education. He worked in local collieries and was self-taught in reading and writing. In 1812, he became a colliery engine builder, and in 1814 he built his first locomotive for the Stockton and Darlington Railway Line. Stephenson was hired as the company engineer and soon convinced the owners to use steam motive power and built the line's first locomotive, the Locomotion. In 1825, Stephenson moved to the Liverpool and Manchester Railway, where together with his son Robert built (1826-29) the Rocket.
Colonel John Stevens is considered to be the father of American railroads. In 1826 Stevens demonstrated the feasibility of steam locomotion on a circular experimental track constructed on his estate in Hoboken, New Jersey, three years before George Stephenson perfected a practical steam locomotive in England. The first railroad charter in North America was granted to John Stevens in 1815. Grants to others followed, and work soon began on the first operational railroads.
Two major figures in developments in RR technologies were George Pullman and George Westinghouse. Pullman invented the Sleeping Car and Westinghouse invented the air brake.
All information on About.com's resources.
"Subway Train puts a stethoscope to the pulse of the bustling masses and uncovers emotional landscapes not readily available in the everyday." – getunderground.com
In preparation for the 2004 New York International Fringe Festival, the Liilaa Company (pronounced lee-lah) presents “An Evening in the Liilaa,” a fundraiser for SUBWAY TRAIN – A Beat Poetry Musical. Taking place on June 21st at New York’s hottest new venue, Crash Mansion located at 199 Bowery at Spring Street, the evening will feature Liilaa Records artists the Katy Pfaffl Band and Swim, plus live performances from SUBWAY TRAIN. There will be two different programs at 8pm and 11pm featuring both bands and the SUBWAY TRAIN cast. There will also be a DJ and dancing throughout the night. General admission for the whole evening is $20, with VIP tickets for reserved seating and hors d’oeuvre reception at BLVD with the Liilaa Company for $60. Advance tickets at TicketWeb.com 866-468-7619.
The Liilaa Company was founded by Joshua Kobak, Katy Pfaffl, and Mickey Fisher and produced their first show "The Colors Of Love" in 1997 at the New York International Fringe Festival. Independently, Joshua Kobak has appeared in RENT on tour and on Broadway in addition to performing with his band Swim and releasing his album “Above and Beneath.” Katy Pfaffl, a Manhattan based voice teacher/coach, recently released "As She Stands" the acoustic soul-folk follow-up to her 2001 self-titled debut album and performs regularly at the Living Room in the East Village. Mickey Fisher of Leo's Pride Entertainment wrote, directed, and appeared in the forthcoming independent feature film "The King Of Iron Town." The Liilaa Company’s new musical, SUBWAY TRAIN, has been in development over the past 6 years and was previously presented as a work-in-progress piece in 1998 at The Duplex Cabaret, Show World Center in 1999 and 2003, and 2003 and 2004 presentations at the Bowery Poetry Club.
Sharing the stage with Kobak, Pfaffl and Fisher on June 21st will be actress Yassmin Alers (RENT, The Rocky Horror Show, The Capeman) and NYC musicians, Sean Dixon, Sebastian Guerrero, Justin Wallace, Dan Johnson, Danton Boller of the Jazz Mandolin Project, and Matt Caplan who can currently be seen on Broadway in RENT as the filmmaker Mark Cohen.
You may have had an evening in celebration, reflection, or ecstasy, but you’ve never had “An Evening in the Liilaa.”
For more information on SUBWAY TRAIN visit www.subway-train.com
###
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/Okinawa1.html
This to me seriously looks like what Seattle would end up getting if the contract goes to Cascadia Monorail headed by Hitachi Heavy Industries. Admittedly the small two car trains do little to encourage hope in the future ridership, but Okinawa (the site of that monorail) is small, and the trains themselves are fully expandible, just stick cars inbetween the cab cars and you have a longer train. As you can see, internally there is little difference between a monorail car and a A division train in NYC, potentially the monorail could carry as many people as the IRT train, however this is unlikely, since there are no cities out there the size of NYC which lack railroad infrastructure and would need to build monorails.
Suorce: Classic Toy Trains newsletter.
To read the full report, visit ClassicToyTrains.com.
Its almost like saying Frank Hornby was a-- (No, I can't say it .)
TOPIC ABOUT PATH (PORT AUTHORITY TRANS-HUDSON)
I have noticed all over the PATH system that in many curve or station approach situations, engineers get red aspect. Now I find that engineers approach these signals at speeds of 20-30 mph. What is the point of having red signals to slow trains down if all they do is turn yellow over yellow as soon as the train is two second away? Is this some wacky grade time.
DYLAN
Part 1 NOTE: Signals south of Bushwich-Aberdeen, and near interlockings at 3rd Avenue, Bedford Avenue, and Myrtle Avenue have been replaced. New signals are installed, but not in service at the 8th Avenue Interlocking.
Part 2
Part 3
Bulletin 60-03 - Passing Caution Signals
...Train Operators operating in time controlled areas will operate in accordance with the posted speeds when grade or station time is in effect...
A strict reading of this Bulletin in its entirety should get you out of any discipline from hitting timed signals that do not clear. Read it for yourself and then discuss with a friendly TSS. Or, for lots of fun, find the nearest unliked TSS and ask him about the Bulletin that allows you to hit home signals.
David
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Good thing the T/O wasn't operating according to posted speed.
As I discovered last night on a D train, the switches from local to express are much faster.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
If the School Car people are telling the student Train Operators to go through timers at less than the posted speed, then they are contravening what the rule book says about operating through timers, and someone in RTO management really ought to take a look at the way the students are being trained.
David
But if some timers are set wrong and you have to go slower than the posted sped to not trip them, and if management then initiates disciplinary action against T/Os who trip the timers (both of which many other posters have claimed), no amount of change in training will help. T/Os are just trying to keep their records clean.
David
Most RTO managers goals involve on-time performance and not how many employees that they can discipline. If a timer is creating operational problems that delay service, the respective manager(s) would better serve themselves by correcting the signal issues. Of course that should not relieve the T/O from having his train under control at all times.
Easier said than done. All RTO can do is place a request with Signals to have it checked and hope that Signals gets to it sometime in this century. We're still waiting for 'AK' plates and 10 car Stop Markers at Stillwell.
A surprising number of managers forget that part of their job is looking out after their own people as well as the edicts of organization.
I complain about the OPTO marker at Euclid being behind a signal so it is not visable until the last second, a similiar problem at Bergen and that the marker at Fulton (NB) makes you lean dangerously out of the cab to see the back of the train. I always clean out my train even if I am very late at Smith and 9th, instead of asking where the platform c/r is, I am criticized for being too inefficient.
To me the easiest thing would be to ride the train and say yes that is legit or no it is not. Instead you are a trouble maker and get reviewed all the time. The weak minded employees pick off and the manager is happy for getting rid of what they considered to be the problem. After a bit no one says anything and hopefully there is never an incident.
People like "Jeff H.", "Train Dude", me (only 15 years at NYCT)...
David
AND as Flash said, nobody ever got in trouble for shooting homeball alley BELOW the posted speed. Nowadays, I suppose because schoolcar ain't what it USED to be, you have folks that aren't trained as well as we were - and WE got tossed through schoolcar like sheet through a goose, but at the same time - if you didn't CUT it, they'd make your life *SO* miserable that you quit before you ever posted. LONG before you posted. As a result, the rules are a LOT stricter than they were back in MY day. Hate to say it, but I've got to agree with "Flash" here. IF the rules are "hit a ball, you crushed a cab" then the enforcement should REALLY be directed at ACCURATE timers and ACCURATE GT and ST plates so that the ACTUAL RULE "proceed according to posted speed" will ACTUALLY WORK!
HOW the MTA plans to get there though is a valid issue. I *knew* what 10 was by the pitch of my motors. I *knew* what 25 was by the pitch of my motors. The speedos used are known to be "quirky" under certain conditions, the trains no longer expose a motorman to motor sound (Which WAS a calibration point by ear) and wayside sounds, continuous welded rail has gotten rid of the secondary calibration of "click clack" and the plates are clearly wrong.
Apologies - THIS is why I side with the motormen ... if I can't TRUST a signal to clear at the posted speed AND I'm going to be charged with a collision (I *had* an ACTUAL collision myself and was dismissed ON THE SPOT) then I'll do 3 MPH until I see the proverbial "Yellow submarine" "Sea of green." :)
Glad *I* don't work the railroad? Heh.
David
If I leave a terminal on time, arrive at my timepoints on time and arrive at the other terminal on time, all without hitting any signals or other trains, I must be doing something right, yes? Getting someone to an intermediate point 30 seconds sooner just to keep them happy isn't worth the shit that will rain down upon me if something goes wrong.
David
I have been 12 minutes late NB by Continental and on time by 179. Late trains are covered, especially on the midnights.
The fat in the running times is often intentional by ops planning or Supt looking to preserve ontime records by fattening the times, not from a slow TO. Some of the daytime N times were padded in case they had to run local in Brooklyn or they were until a pick or two.
Even the traffic checker system has been compromised. If I get a push in a place where they don't do that normally 90% of the time there is a checker somewhere on the line, the other 10% the checker probably left by the time I got there. If all the running times were padded they would not bother with the push.
For another, timers, if strategically placed, can actually help trains get through an area more quickly. Case in point: station timers. The IRT was built without them but added them soon after opening because management needed to have trains creep into stations as their leaders were leaving; previously, the follower was stuck outside the station until its leader had completely cleared the station. Which timers are we talking about in this #2 line example?
David
As for the R142, yes they can keep to schedule a bit better than the Redbirds. But keep in mind, at this time there were three set of 142s and a whole pile of Redbirds still running.
David
Posted 20, clear at about 11 with less than a car length to spare.
HIT THE SIGNAL?
SIGNAL DIDN'T CLEAR AT THE POSTED SPEED?
GUESS WHAT?
YOU'RE STILL AT FAULT.
YOU DID NOT HAVE YOUR TRAIN UNDER CONTROL.
And the result of such an incident is the T/O has to visit the nice people down in LR and be threatened with suspension or termination.
You say the T/O is braking when that least signal clear, now how far is the train from that signal finally clears, and would the signal have cleared in time if the train was going 40?
I worked with a T/O who was great with timers, and you never saw the signal clear for more than a second (I watched the signals on the elevated sections). However, that's a bit risky and he'd be going downtown if he misjudged.
David
Bottom line is that if a T/O hits a timer, regardless of it's GT posted speed, he/she is looking at severe discipline. I know damn well that none of you would help that T/O with the bills while on suspension, so leave the T/O alone when it comes to playing with signals.
Now if you want to critique someone on his/her operational and/or stopping skills, then that's something entirely different.
David
When you consider that most who work a pick get to see that SAME signal at least twice a day if not more, then for them to take things THAT slow indicates that they've had their own personal "epiphany" at that ball before ... When you know your route and you know your timers, you should be able to "work them." What you're seeing in operation though is the result of actual experience there.
But the bottom line is "IN control of your train" whatever that requires. And you DON'T challenge timers. :(
David
Since I understand the signals HAVE been rehabbed since, I can at least mention that under the OLD regime, that first timer never cleared at 40. 32 sounds about right but back in my day, we didn't have speedos, we had to GUESS on SMEE cars, and we knew the correct note on the arnines I usually ran. But it definitely wasn't 40. And we also had "peppier cars" then so riding the reds was quite commonplace.
To ADD to the fun, you could never be sure until you crested the hill as to whether or not that last red in the time zone would actually clear owing to a train parked IN the station, or partway out of it, so you'd BE prepared to stop until you could actually SEE into Prospect park as to whether or not you were going to actually pull all the way in.
AFTER the rehab, I've been told by current day operators that those timers are LIES, and they're occasionally erratic. Therefore I don't believe it's an old wive's tale, it's an actual characteristic of the line. Since they've slowed down the whole railroad anyway, and it seems pretty clear in conversing with operators privately whose competence I *believe* in, maybe they should adjust the plates to reflect the ACTUAL clearing timings. But sorry to say, if I was running, I'd just do the course slower and not chase the lights at all until I could SEE into Prospect park. But if I suspect that I might get tripped, I *will* give it a full serve. I ran arnines like that as well.
I do agree with you that something ain't right about that time zone. I'd suggest that it get fixed. :)
And to think that when the arnines made their debut on the Brighton post-Chrystie, I thought they were cattle cars. MOOOOOOOOOOOO......
Actually, I worked a put-in from CIY to Brighton Beach each morning, 0705 usually. And more often than not, they'd been F trains "yesterday." Rollsign duty in addition to kicking the doors. Heh.
True, the Redbirds also whispered, but the whisper was definitely more distinct on the Brightliners than on any of the Redbirds I rode on.
As for the Arnines, they had lousy acceleration. Was their braking good enough that you could "take up full" the northbound downhill express well past Av. H and still get it to brake in time for Newkirk?
I am sick of your BS.
This is my offer I pick 100 signals, you throw away fifty of them. I pick them right before we go out.
I will bet 50K out of personal funds that they will not clear at post speed, 1K a piece. We get Johnson to ride the train and for each one I lose I give 1K to the March of Dimes and for each one I win you give a like amount to the TWU fund for families of workers killed on duty.
First - T/Os have always been responsible for the safe operation of their train - even before speedometers.
Second - most of the NYCT speedometers are of the doppler type (up to R-68A) and are tested against a calibrated tuning fork. They are accurate to within less than 2 MPH. The Inductive pick-up type speedometers such as on the R-46 & R-68 are dependent on the wheel size and are re-adjusted when wheel size warrents re-calibration. In any event, the max error (min wheel - speedo set for max) would be 3 MPH.
I had an interesting (to me) CED problem. Email to you gets bounced, can you give me a holler at CDGNPC@aol.com?
In any case, the rule book says that yellow-over-"S" means proceed AT THE POSTED SPEED, not at HALF the posted speed. I need not make bets on anything. If the Union doesn't vigorously defend those Train Operators who "go in the hole" and claim that they were obeying the speed limit, and if the Union doesn't press management to (a) ensure that the timers clear at the posted speed or change the posted speed to match the actual performance of the timers, (b) ensure that the speedometers are accurate (yes, I saw the followup post that mentioned "Train Dude"), and (c) change the way time signal overruns are treated by management, then shame on the Union.
David
David
Not like TWU is any more on the ball than all those wiglets ... what you describe though is a bottleneck - isn't that RTO's job? Of course WIGS don't get to pee in the cup. :)
The Supt of "C" division?
David
No freaking way he's not.
What? Again, details.
I only post what I've seen, and what I know to be true, and I don't jump to conclusions about things I know nothing about.
The guy I was talking about usually did not post with his name or email (I stopped myself when i traced spam to this site) and would quote partial RTO rules and insisted at one point the 90+% of all signals cleared at posted speed. Last time when confronted with all the T/Os current and former that disagreed with him he put it on CED saying it was due to faulty speedometers.
David
David
I *live* for Jeff and Dave getting it on about track circuits - we're not allowed to talk about barely missing hitting a signal anymore - or what happens in the yahds when beakies ain't looking. I don't CARE about TPH or which train gets to rot on the local track. :)
The problem seems to be that of reliability. Timers don't clear at the posted speed or in some cases even at some consistent speed below the posted speed. I think there is a tendency to push up against timers that have been reliable in clearing but in other areas operators will not because there's no telling when the signal will clear. The places where operators come close to running a red signal are the most reliable to clear, like in the 60 St or 14 St tunnels. Other timed signals seem to take more than their allotted time and different signals at different times. Maybe a baseball analogy is the best. Some umpires don't call a strike zone that's the same as the one published in the rule book, but if they make consistent calls on their different zone players can rely on taking a pitch. Someone playing will prefer an umpire who calls an incorrect but consistent strike zone to one who calls correct strikes inconsistently. Are operators the same?
David
Leaving Seventh Avenue southbound "on the post" and staying there, a train of slant R-40s (nowadays a typical B train consist) hits 40 MPH just before it gets to the GT-40 sign. This T/O would bring the train down to 32 MPH as the first car passed the GT-40 sign. After the first timer cleared, he put the controller back "on the post" and kept it there until he needed to make the station stop at Prospect Park. Since the cars have no field shunting anymore and since the train had to negotiate a slight upgrade going into the Prospect Park station, the train never did get up to 40 in that area again. However, it did not crawl and the passengers did not get knocked around.
David
And yes, I noticed that that particular signal "went nutsy" earlier this year. I asked one of my colleagues who deals with Signals people to report it. The signal was "nutsy" for weeks but seems to be working properly now. I've been through the area this year at decent speed, but only on Q trains -- it's not the cars, it's the way the cars are being operated.
But I've been thinking some more about the area in question (Seventh Avenue to Prospect Park, southbound). The GT-40 sign is somewhat obscured by dirt and is followed by an ST-20 sign (after a signal in between). Could it be that the "newbies" are not seeing the GT-40 sign, are seeing the ST-20 sign, and are failing to properly interpret the yellow-over-"S" aspects as grade time aspects, interpreting them instead as station time aspects (which, for those who are not initiated, would be red-over-whatever the maximum allowable speed is in MPH until clear, then yellow without a speed or an "S" illuminated)?
David
The R/20 is the last timed signal. In theory, if I pass the former auto Y/S at posted speed, this one should clear to Green (assuming no train ahead. Witha train ahead, it should clear to Yellow). Instead, it just sits there, showing R/20 until you slow down. My current version of reality has me passing the former signal (Y/S) at about 25 with a small brake applied - the R/20 clears to green about 30 feet in front of me while travelling at 15 mph. Then I can wrap it into the station.
And I won't even go into the case of the signal just north of Atlantic Avenue on the southbound track -- the one that used to be a station timer but got changed to a combination one-shot grade timer/station timer without a lunar white aspect being added...and now clears faster when it's acting as a station timer than when it acts as a grade timer...
David
Signal 1 is approached displaying y/s/g. It clears before the
train passes it (right?) and then signal 2 displays y/s.
Now, the critical question: does signal 2 change aspect before
it is passed?
David
David
David
What I am wondering is *where* and *when* does a signal clear.
Yes you have to be doing the correct speed or the signal will not clear. but if you are doing the corect speed, when or where is the signal supposed to clear.
Suppose the timer is set for 30 and you are doing 30, ought it clear as soon as you are doing 30? How can it know what speed you are doing?
Ought it to clear x number of seconds after you pass the previous signal, so that if you are doing the corect speed it will clear just before you get to it. before you get to x number of feet from it?
Maybe it will not clear until you are x number of feet from it no mater how fast or slow you were going.
Elias
In operation, many would enter the time zone over the posted speed and then have to reduce to well below it to match the Mickey Mouse clock ticks to signal clearage. And in situations where you entered the block below speed what would happen is the signal would clear in the distance and you'd WRAP IT, going over the speed.
This is the reason for WD's out there as opposed to standard timers at critical points, owing to the practice of many sloppy operators on interlocks - you'd get your lead car through the interlock, maybe drag three more across the switch and then wrap it resulting in some serious whippage of your tail cars. WD's ensure that you maintain that SPEED throughout the WD zone and can't cheat by underruning and then wrapping it.
But in the critical complaints over the homeball alley on the Brighton, having worked it myself years ago my bet is that the ones that go to a crawl entered the timed zone too fast.
So maybe the signals *are* working correctly, and some of these turkies would never know it.
Elias
That particular piece of the railroad HAS been bad ordered recently though, so I'm inclined to believe the motorpeople. And there are many repeated reports from competent people that the timers do NOT work as planned, and these come from people who have enough meatrom to know that the time is the time at speed when you enter the zone. So it's probably that either the plates or the timer relays are wrong. My bet, given policy, is that the timers were changed but the plates never were. :(
MTA: Going Your Way. Slower and Slower Every Day.
For a single-shot timer (red over lunar white disk), there is
just one timing relay per signal. Let's say you pass signal 1
which has a GT20 fixed plate sign near it. As you cross the
joint you enter track circuit 1T. This starts timer relay 1U
running. That relay is part of the control of signal 2. Even
though all other conditions are set to clear signal 2, the
timer relay prevents it from clearing until the relay completes
running its time period. That period is calculated based on
how long the track circuit is (the distance between signals 1 and 2)
and the desired speed, usually with some allowance in the favor
of the motorman, so that if you are doing exactly 20 MPH, that
lunar white will clear comfortably before the train is on top of it.
For a two-shot timer, where illuminated "S" aspects are used,
things are more complicated. Once again signal 1 displays GT20.
Signal 2 displays Y/S and although people will call it a timer signal,
it technically is not, because the timer does not hold it at red.
The first timer signal is signal 3. Now, once again, when you enter
1T track circuit (between signals 1 and 2), timer relay 1U starts
counting. If it runs time before you reach signal 2 (and thereby
occupy track circuit 2T) then that allows signal 3 to clear.
In other words, relay 1U is holding signal 3 at red.
Signal 2 was displaying yellow because the next signal was at red.
The illuminated S means that all conditions are good at that next
signal to clear, it's just a timer that's holding it back.
When signal 3 clears, signal 2 displays green.
Now, if the train is moving too quickly through track circuit 1T,
then timer 1U does not complete in time. Once signal 2 is passed,
timer relay 1U no longer can clear signal 3. Instead, timer relay
2U starts running. This is the "2nd shot". In theory, you were
going too fast in track circuit 1, so now you would have to slow down
to below the posted speed in order to clear signal 3. But, if you
went from signal 1 to 2 at 30 MPH and then slowed down such that
you were doing exactly 20 as you passed signal 2 (at Y/S), then,
once again, in theory, signal 3 will clear.
If there are more timers ahead, timer 2U is the first shot for signal
4, etc. If you went past signal 2 at Y/S, then signal 3 should
clear from R directly to G.
I'll look at my Hall catalog to see if I can come up with some information.
That is incorrect.
A "Disc" is a round shape such as a CD-ROM Disc or a 45 RPM Disc.
A "Disk" ONLY REFERS to a magnetic medium applied to a disc,
such as in a Floppy Disk or a Hard Disk Drive.
Elias
Some quotations using the spelling "disk" in its other senses:
1664 Phil. Trans. I. 3 He hath..at length seen them emerge out of his Disk.
a1711 GREW (J.), The crystal of the eye, which in a fish is a ball, in any land animal is a disk or bowl.
1714 DERHAM Astro-Theol. V. iv. (1726) 130 Jupiter..hath manifestly..his Belts and Spots, darker than the rest of his Disk.
1715-20 POPE Iliad II. 941 In empty air their sportive jav'lins throw, Or whirl the disk.
1727 BAILEY vol. II., Disk, with Florists, is a Body of Florets collected together, and forming as it were a plain Surface.
1761 GAERTNER in Phil. Trans. LII. 82 Out of the top part, or the disk of the polype, grow the feelers.
1791 COWPER Iliad II. 948 His soldiers hurled the disk or bent the bow.
1791 COWPER Iliad XI. 528 Ulysses' oval disk he smote. Through his bright disk the stormy weapon flew.
1794 MARTYN Rousseau's Bot. vi. 65 In the radiate flowers the disk is often of one colour and the ray of another.
1797 GODWIN Enquirer II. xi. 364 The spots discoverable in the disk of the sun.
1802 HERSCHEL in Phil. Trans. XCII. 214 To remove the disk-micrometer.
1803 Med. Jrnl. X. 26 Volta constructed a pile made up of disks of different metals with layers of cloth interposed.
1807 J. E. SMITH Phys. Bot. 454 Polygamia frustranea, florets of the disk..perfect or united; those of the margin neuter, or destitute of pistils as well as of stamens.
1830 LINDLEY Nat. Syst. Bot. Introd. 29 Immediately between the stamens and the ovarium is sometimes found a fleshy ring or fleshy glands called a Disk, and supposed..to represent an inner row of imperfectly developed stamens.
1834 MCMURTRIE Cuv. Anim. Kingd. 272 Some of them..expand into a disk comparable to that of a flower or of an Actinia.
1835 THIRLWALL Greece I. viii. 329 He could run, leap, wrestle, hurl the disk.
1846 DANA Zooph. iv. §54 The *disk-buds, like the lateral, probably proceed from one of the same lamellæ.
Ibid. iv. §53 In *disk-budding, a new mouth opens in the disk.
1847 CARPENTER Zool. §1015 In the Ophiuræ we find a more distinct central disk..it is furnished with arms. Ibid. §1013 In others the disk seems almost absent, the animal being, as it were, all rays.
1855 GOSSE Marine Zool. I. 41 Acalepha. Body in form of a circular disk, more or less convex and umbrella-like..moving by alternate contractions and expansions of the disk: Discophora [Sea-blubbers, etc.] Ibid. 63 Comatula. When adult, free, stemless, with simple thread-like jointed appendages around the dorsal disk.
1865 LUBBOCK Preh. Times vi. (1878) 283 A small oval disk of white sandstone.
1865 GROTE Plato II. xxiii. 169 Whether the earth was a disk or a sphere.
1866 TATE Brit. Mollusks iii. 46 The foot is a broad flat expanded disk.
1870 HOOKER Stud. Flora 347 Coniferæ..wood-cells studded with disks.
1870 HOOKER Stud. Flora 185 Asteroideæ..*Disk-flowers 2-sexual.
1870 HOOKER Stud. Flora 159 Cicuta..*Disk-lobes depressed, entire.
1872 OLIVER Elem. Bot. II. 195 In Daisy..the inner florets are much smaller, regular, tubular, and yellow, constituting the disk.
1872 RUSKIN Eagle's Nest §224 The shield [is] a disk of leather, iron fronted.
1872 OLIVER Elem. Bot. II. 195 In Daisy, and many other plants with ray and *disk florets.
1874 KNIGHT Dict. Mech. I. 708/2 *Disk-telegraph, one in which the letters and figures are arranged around a circular plate and are brought consecutively to an opening, or otherwise specifically indicated.
1881 Daily Tel. 28 Jan., So long as the position of the disk which he is legally obliged to affix somewhere upon the vessel's side is left to the discretion of the owner.
1883 Syd. Soc. Lex. s.v., Intermediate disks, the membrane of Krause, separating muscle fibre into compartments.
1883 H. W. V. STUART Egypt 365 Some Egyptologists assert that Amunoph III already had adopted *disk-worship from his Semitic wife.
a1884 KNIGHT Dict. Mech. Suppl., *Disk electrode,..an electrode for telegraphic instruments in which the connection is secured by the contact of the peripheries of two disks.
a1884 KNIGHT Dict. Mech. Suppl., *Disk harrow, a harrow..carrying a number of sharp-edged and concave disks.
1884 F. KROHN tr. Glaser de Cew's Magn. & Dyn.-electr. Mach. 104 A kind of voltaic battery in which only one metal was employed, the disk-electrodes of which were rendered active by polarisation.
1893 SIR R. BALL Story of Sun 39 Mars at the time..shows a large and brilliant disk.
1895 A. J. EVANS in Folk-lore Mar. 15 Like the *disk-barrows it is surrounded by a ditch and bank.
1907 Sound Wave & Talking Machine Record Dec. 60/2 The world today always associates Edison's phonograph with a cylinder apparatus, but the first phonograph we look at in this patent is a disc (he called it a disk) machine.
1942 Time 6 July 67/1 Some stations merely hired ‘disk-jockeys’ to ride herd on swing records, in the traditional milk-man's matinee style.
1956 Nature 11 Feb. 277/2 Red cells retain their disk-like form.
1962 Gloss. Aeronaut. Terms (B.S.I.) v. 16 Disk area, the area of the circle described by the tips of the blades.
1962 Gloss. Aeronaut. Terms (B.S.I.) v. 16 Disk loading, the thrust of the rotor divided by the disk area.
1971 N.Y. Times (Entertainment section) 9 May 17/4 All the other disk jockeys had names like Brown and Green.
Correct
and then signal 2 displays y/s.
Now, the critical question: does signal 2 change aspect before
it is passed?
Once upon a time - prior to Jan 2004 - it did, and then signal 3 would clear from R/20 to G. Now it, signal 2, doesn't clear before you pass it and signal 3 remains at R/20.
My first experience where someone said "They told us not to pass a timer until the Y turns G." Local supervision had a shit-fit.
David
What if the "S" were extinguished when the following signal was to clear on station time at 20 miles instead of 40...would that help?
David
Hypothetically, if one were in GT-40 territory, and passed a Y/S signal and the following signal was R/20, and it cleared only at 20mph or below, then one would want to contact your friendly neighborhood signalman.
Everything is contextual, and I'm not addressing any particular location.
David
David
The train slowed to 15. The lunar white continued to blink until it slowed further to 5. Then the next lunar white (at the WD 10, when we were doing 5) started blinking, and continued blinking until we dropped to 3.
I can't vouch for the precise accuracy of the speedometer, but we were certainly moving a lot slower than 10.
David
I have this thing I do for the northbound tube. I actually use a stopwatch to measure the time it takes for a northbound N or W train to run from Lexington/60 to Queensboro, and my personal record is 3:07, on a set of R40 slants running on the W, I believe.
I give grades to the T/O's for their "performance."
Anything:
Under 3:20 is an A.
3:20 to 3:25 is an B.
3:25 to 3:30 is an C.
Over 3:30 is an F.
(There is no D.)
Unfortunately, I get more F's than A's.
Matt
I will be glad to bring commerative maps down to washington with me but I need to know how many to get from the TA. Just reply under this if you would like a **FREE** 2004 100yr Aniversary Map for the NYCTA...
THIS IS FOR WASHINGTON SCAVENGAR TRIP ATTENDEES ONLY Jun 19th 2004
I hear Mark wants some maps. :-)
Cant Wait
Dylan
Can't wait to meet you.
Oren
You might bring more just in case.
John
You are truly a saint for bringing them down...Yes, I'd like one (or two) please....
Thanks,
Mark
p.s.---See y'all on the 19th....
NH&I GP30
steam engine
runby in the rain
runby in the rain
steam engine running around train at Wycomb
steam engine running around train at Wycomb
face of #40
adding water in the rain
getting ready for second steam trip
steam train in New Hope, PA
diesel train waiting for meet with steam train
diesel train at Lahaska
runby at Wycomb
steam
1925 Baldwin 2-8-0 #40
#40
I find the map, in general, very helpful, although some local railroads, such as SMS in Pureland and Penn Jersey in Morrisville, are not depicted.
Thank you for providing that valuable resource.
Chuck Greene
At a protest by photographers, you see things like a guy taking pictures of a guy taking pictures of a few more guys taking pictures of one another.
There was such a protest yesterday, but it might take hundreds of pages to describe it, given all the pictures that were taken, each one worth at least a thousand words.
The photographers - about 100 of them - gathered to express their outrage at the Metropolitan Transportation Authority's proposed ban on taking pictures in the subway system. Meeting at Grand Central Terminal, they rode the trains for upward of an hour, shutters clicking, flashes popping, in a filmed rebuke to the idea that photography is somehow a national security threat.
"The point is really to make everyday people wake up and realize that photographers are not terrorists," said Joe Anastasio, who organized the event. "In the last few years, photographers near anything vaguely important have been getting harassed."
Mr. Anastasio went on to tell the story of a friend who took his wife's picture near the Whitestone Bridge, only to be called in for questioning by the police. He told another of a man caught snapping pictures at a Metro-North station who was interrogated for nearly two hours by authorities at the scene.
"The paranoia," he said, "has gone a little too far."
The transit authority's proposal, posted on its Web site, says the agency is planning to adopt "a general prohibition against photography and videotaping in the system." The agency is soliciting public comment on the ban and plans to vote on the proposal in the next few months.
"It's a security measure," said a spokeswoman for the agency, Deirdre Parker. "It was suggested by the N.Y.P.D."
Mr. Anastasio and his fellow photographers said it was ridiculous that pictures of the subway might somehow make the trains unsafe. After all, they said, there are thousands of subway photographs already on the Internet.
"The subway is so well documented that what's the point?" asked Jean Miele, a fine art and commercial photographer. "This sort of thing makes us less free, not safer."
Infuriated that his photographic rights might in fact be curtailed, Mr. Anastasio sent messages to several friends, asking them to show up yesterday to photograph the subway. They did - with Nikons, Leicas, Canons and such. There were an $8,000 digital job and a cheap mini that showed a nudie picture through its viewfinder.
When a downtown No. 6 train arrived, the photographers began to cheer. They boarded in a herd and held their cameras up, taking pictures of other hands holding cameras up.
At the 14th Street station, they split into two groups, stood against the walls and photographed each other across a corridor. This had varying effects on the people passing by. One woman fixed her hair before she ran the gantlet; another covered her face.
One guy said to his buddy, "Hey, what's with all the paparazzi?"
His buddy said, "Dunno, I think it must be you."
There was a tense moment when the crowd decided it would photograph a transit police dispatch station at 14th Street. A startled officer came out and suggested that they leave.
"You didn't say 'Cheese!' " one of the cheekier photographers said.
When an L train finally arrived, they tried taking pictures of the motorman. He was not keen on this idea, however, and blocked his window with an advertising circular.
Many of the photographers said they planned to post their pictures on the Internet - Jared Skolnick, for example, who takes pictures of the subway on his cellphone and then displays them online.
"I've learned that so many crazy things can happen on the subway," said Mr. Skolnick, who paused and then added, "including this."
OT, in one of the San Ysidro/Tijuana pictures you caught a corner of the McDonalds where there was once a multiple murder (a nutcase went in shooting all and sundry).
Actually, I believe the McDonals'd where the shootings took place in 1984, was later torn down, and the one at the border is a replacement.
Great photos of a great system in a great town. Nuff said. And congrats on getting outta town for a bit.
How was your railfanning received by the authorities there? The last time I railfanned there was in '99 so my perspective is from 'the good old days'. Did you require a permit? Didja get yelled at by anyone? Inquiring minds wanna know.
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Sierra Madre
Mark
Does one of those trains really goto/connect to Mexico? I like the action too. Especiallyt he picture of hte motorized wheelchair and the dude standing next to it, and the two cops hassling a guy ont he bench in the background.
I also understand you really don't want to drive on I-5(or is it 10 too) at night. Mexican smugglers use that road by the dozens at night, with headlights off driving onto oncoming traffic since it's illegal for the cops to follow or pursue.
Did you stay at a hotel, and if so, which one?
Yes, the San Diego Trolley Blue Line ends in San Ysidro, a very short walk to the US-Mexican border.
Operator fell asleep, train went sailing through the San Ysidro station, knocked over the bumpers and crossed the street. The entire train went over the opposite sidewalks and the front of the train was technically into Tijuana! Fortunately it happened on one of the very late night trips, and nobody was killed.
The operator no longer works for SD Trolley.
I also understand you really don't want to drive on I-5(or is it 10 too) at night. Mexican smugglers use that road by the dozens at night, with headlights off driving onto oncoming traffic since it's illegal for the cops to follow or pursue.
Did you stay at a hotel, and if so, which one?
Yes, the Blue Line goes to the border. Look at the photo I took where I wrote that I was yelled at by the Feds. Where I was standing was still several hundred feet north of the border, but only maybe 100 feet from the beginning of the cattle chute that everyone going to Mexico must enter.
The wheelchair guy was interesting. The signs on his wheelchair said he was an Armed Forces vet and that he was selling night/day vision binoculars for $50. And he was out of the wheelchair at Old Town but then got back on it and stayed in it from the time he got on to the train to the time he got back off.
I don't recall the cops in the background, I'll have to look at the photo again later.
I wasn't aware of the issues with driving on the Interstates at night (if they are true). The latest I drove at was probably 11PM. But the Interstates and State Highways during the day are fun! The overpasses, underpasses, and on/off ramps are much different from back east. It was really cool.
I stayed at the Radisson in La Jolla. It was nice.
The wheelchair guy was interesting. The signs on his wheelchair said he was an Armed Forces vet and that he was selling night/day vision binoculars for $50. And he was out of the wheelchair at Old Town but then got back on it and stayed in it from the time he got on to the train to the time he got back off.
I don't recall the cops in the background, I'll have to look at the photo again later.
[PICTURE 52]
I wasn't aware of the issues with driving on the Interstates at night (if they are true). The latest I drove at was probably 11PM. But the Interstates and State Highways during the day are fun! The overpasses, underpasses, and on/off ramps are much different from back east. It was really cool. *
I got this from an article and some other source of it being talked about, forget what the other source was now.
I wonder how the freeways compare to LA or the south. I absolutely love the LA freeways, they're the only city that has the infrastructure to make driving fun and attractive. Though those highways are so dated, i couldn't imagine merging in anything less than a 6cyl. and that took gunning it.
I love the way that LRT goes right into the "town center" and that little promende thing.
You should have ridden the Blue Line, right next to US 101, and down C Street! (When I get back to the states--I am in Panama), I will post some of my pics of my MTS experience!) Now, did you pay your fare, or take a chance that no one would check your tix, a la RiverLINE and HBLR?)
>_>
-_-
What?
No. >_>
You should've told them you were taking the pics for Pancho Villa.
And staying in La Jolla! What a beautiful place that is. Some of the best sunsets I have ever seen were right there at the rocks:
(excuse the poor slide scan, it was done with my old scanner a while back)
I stayed in Old Town when I was there, and it was also great. Certainly can't beat the Mexican Food (my favorite type of food) and margaritas! We may have the monopoly here in New York on Pizza and bagels, but they certainly have it on Mexican food!
We did ride the Blue Line from downtown to the border. When I saw that the Blue Line now runs to where we were staying- it looks like either by the Fenton Parkway or Fashion Center station based on the map- I was quite frustrated. In '92, we had to drive downtown and park in one of those honor system parking lots where you put the money in the slot box numbered for the spot you're in. They have those at many SEPTA stations. It wasn't easy trying to jam $7.00 into that tiny slot, but at least I had a five and two singles. There didn't seem to be any provision for changing bigger bills.
There was also a gasoline spill closing the 163 Freeway, the most direct way downtown. So we were forced to take I-8 west to 5 south downtown. San Diego freeway traffic seems just as bad as in L.A. Had the Blue Line reached where we were staying at the time, all of this nonsense would've been avoided.
The trolley ride was quite interesting, with heavy street running downtown (and a mass of overhead wires by the Imperial/12th junction) and a speedy ROW along I-5. It's amazing how grade crossings can exist right next to freeway off-ramps. Had I been alone, I would've taken the Orange Line to El Cajon. Someone says it goes through some very bad neighborhoods heading east out of downtown. If I recall, some of downtown didn't look so hot either- just as with any big city.
Did you stay in Tijuana long? We got our tequila and headed back to the States without eating or drinking anything. This wasn't my first time there; that was as a teenager in '74 with my folks. The vendors were EXTREMELY aggressive the first time; eighteen years later they hawked stuff, but didn't try to haul you bodily into their stores. The covered pedestrian bridge running over the toll booths and through customs didn't exist in '74. I've got a photo of my Dad and I standing on opposite sides of the border (a line painted on the ground) shaking hands. You probably couldn't do THAT today even if it were physically possible. Coming back into the States in '92, the inspector engaged us in conversation to gauge our accents and determine just how American we were. (We saw some large, forlon families who obviously didn't make the cut sitting in a room off to the side.) Hearing our Noo Yawk accents, the guard asked where we were from. Turns out he used to live in Flushing. What a small world!
While in San Diego, we also went to the Zoo, Sea World, Pacific Beach and Old Town- the latter of which is now served by the Blue Line as well. I found it interesting that the Amtrak ROW crosses streets at grade in such an urban area. That was the one right under the I-5 freeway. My bride panicked at the loud bumping noise a car made on the unpadded crossing: "Oh, no! A train's coming!" Apparently she never walked across railroad tracks before marrying ME-
Did you go to L.A. or anywhere else in Southern California? We actually stayed in L.A. at the beginning and end of our 'moon, with a three-day sojourn to S.D. in the middle. We rode no public transit while in the L.A. area- but I sure drooled at the Blue Line ROW that paralleled us along the Long Beach Freeway!
(Note: SD Trolley 1001-1071 = Siemens-Duewag U2 1980-1990
2001-2052 = Siemens-Duewag SD-100 (1994-1997)
If you confine it to the near future, then the answer is simple. The projects already underway aren't yet fully funded, and these are multi-year projects - in some cases multi-decade projects. In the near future, the question is whether the existing projects will all get done, not which new ones will be dreamt up.
The more distant future is another story. I assume you're talking about system expansion projects, not rehabs or improvements to the existing plant. With that understood, the more plausible projects would include the following:
Extending the SAS to Brooklyn.
Extending the SAS across 125th St and/or to the Bronx.
Extending the #7 further south along 10th avenue.
Extending the N or the 7 to LaGuardia airport.
Extending the L to 10th Avenue.
Extending the Archer Avenue Line in Queens.
Building the Queens "super express," connecting to the SAS @63rd St.
Note that the above assumes that the SAS and #7 extension get built as currently planned.
Busing? Yeah I guess the latest talk in town is BUS RAPID TRANSIT. I wonder if New York has any in the works. 12th Avenue BUS RAPID, with connexions to the Q, N, R, and W?
AEM7
The only subway-related enhancement related to the Olympic games is the #7 extension. The others have nothing to do with it.
In any event, the premise of my post is that these things - if they ever happen - are many many years away, by which time the factors deciding what gets built could be very different from what we think is important today.
What'd I say?
M-O-N-O-RAIL
M-O-N-O-RAIL
I hear there awefully loud...
er I forgot the rest. >_>
It drives as softly as a cloud!
Is there a chance the track could bend?
Not on your life, my Hindu friend?
What about us brain-dead slobs?
You'll be given cushy jobs!
Were you sent here by the devil?
No, good sir, I'm on the level!
The ring came off my pudding can!
Take my pen-knife, my good man! I swear it's Springfield's only choice! Throw up your hands and raise your voice!
MONORAIL!
What's it called?
MONORAIL!
Once again!
MONORAIL!
But Main Street's still all cracked and broken!
Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken!
MONORAIL! MONORAIL! MONORAIL!
MONORAIL!
Mono... d'oh!
Too bad they didnt bring back the monorail in a later episode and have it actually working. But it was funny to see what was built.
Perhaps a sector plate (turntable ) would work ???
Sorry!- I forgot to add the :-) after the last remark.
Another 2-track monorail at Chiba-city, has a branch line and service is as frequent as the Tokyo Monorail.
Shonan Monorail is single track, so they have to pass the trains going to the other direction at some stations. Yet they run a 8 tph service on weekdays.
Yes. It is possible.:-)
Chiba- I was thinking only of 'straddle' monorails but Chiba is the 'suspended' type and appears to work - they are suggesting extensions !
(I don't feel that either type of switch is as simple as the normal rail type )
That's true. But since the Tokyo Monorail has been there for 40 years, I believe you can call it by now, "proven technology".
Anyway my point was, the technology for switches on a monorail system can provide frequent service. It is probably more costly to keep HSR systems like Shinkansen, ICE or TGV running.
But I cant get any info on it, weather its just a employee/yard station or what.
Anybody know what it is, and/or have any info on it?
Anyway, the Shonan Monorail is a fun ride. More like a roller-coaster ride with fast acceleration and ups and downs.
And yes the ride is fun, though I only know this from the monorail dvd I got from monorails.org
Generally speaking, Japanese private railways tend to have railbuff friendly sites. Not that their T/Os are happy with it, though.
The last time I rode the Shonan Monorail was probably in the late eighties. Maybe I'll do the ride the next time I visit my folks in Japan.
What is called a "monorail" is too imprecise to issue a blanket comment on all forms. The simplest reason I can give for not botehring with monorails (unless you want a novelty in a tourist central like Las Vegas, or a zoo or theme park) is to state this about two-rail systems: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
monorail does not create much of an opportunity for politicians to make money when repairs are needed, if ever.
WDobner once told me that in Seattle, where they have Monorails, it's actually a six-rail and not a monorail. It's a six-rail because six conventional rails are laid down as guideways. Why not just one? Well, there's the issue of balance, and there is the fact that it is cheaper just to buy railhead shaped rolled steel than to try to persuade a Steel plant to run you off a one off short run of "mono" rail. Rail -- not beams, is the established technology, and there is no reason to change it; even if something is called a "monorail", if it is steel wheels on steel rails it still uses conventional "rail". If it's rubber wheels on concrete then it's really a busway. There's really no such thing as a true monorail, except for the suspended type vehicle design which has proved to be totally impractical for many reasons.
Monorails do not create jobs the way steel rail does- trackworkers to replace worn out or broken rails (beams were replaced recently at Disneyworld for the first time since it opened, any single subway line goes through rail replacement quite often.
How often is quite often? We have lots of 1910's and 1920's rails running out there. Show me a monorail that has a 'beam' dating back from that time. Besides, for this type of comparison to be valid, you will have to control for factors like MGT, weather, vehicle design, etc. I don't know enough about monorail to say whether wear is a problem but I know that for conventional rail, wear cost functions are well known and wear maintenance requirements are mostly well known. (As Ladbroke Grove shows, we are still learning about CWR even though it's been out for 30 years as a concept.) I'm [sort-of] an engineer and I would rather stick with what I know how to do than what I don't know how to do.
As for being an unproven technology, we could learn a great deal from Japan. There are many monorails operating in that country
Of course we could. But why bother? These "monorails" operating in Japan would have been just as successful if they were constructed as conventional rail. Strange wear patterns appear whenever you change the wheel-rail contact system -- for example, in Vancouver Skytrain, they went to linear induction motors and it has resulted in some bizzare vehicle wear. You know, I am all for trying new things, but in a few experimental systems I've seen and rode on, they were either not real innovative (a la Seattle six-rail) or they were crapped out (Shanghai Maglev) because the novel technology simply didn't work. Two-rail configuration has been around since the time of the Romans, and have evolved to something close to optimal (Even the AAR's official book "The Railroad, What it is and What it does" tell us so -- along with technical justifications). What I presented is an abbreviated argument from that book, you should read it if you are interested.
AEM7
The only "true" monorail I know of, which fulfilled the desired advantage of minimizing rolling resistance, was the Pelham Bay monorail, which used a single conventional rail on the ground and was stabilized by buffers and a structure on top. Of course, it took a curve too slowly one day, toppled off the track, and that was that. But with gyroscopic stabilization it might have done better.
I have looked at monorail.org's site and it is very nice. But I have yet to have a monorail advocate give me a convincing reason that monorail should replace conventional rail.
There isn't. Monorails in Japan are usually built where conventional rail is not suited. Steep hills, not enough space, NIMBYs, etc...
This idea would also address the issue of switches, which I see is even a sort of controversy on the monorail site. When I first saw the Wild Asia ride, the one thing that bothered me was that a switch that was not set for you simply had the structure ahead of you ending in a void-- nothing but a straight drop to the ground. The NWK Airtrain, with the flipping structure is not much better. With my idea, once again, the monorail could end, and the outer flange rail begin, and do the switching in the interlocking. Some other sideways support sould have to take over then, which might compromise the light unobstructive nature of the guideway, but this would only be brief, for the interlocking.
I think that Metrotech should pay to build something like this, since it was they who were instrumental in getting the Myrtle removed (even as MTA was preparing to get new cars for it), and it wouldn't even be built for decades after that. They have been inconveniencing the area to the east, such as even moving the buses around, (and the B54 was even altogether cut back for a while, until they found a way to run it around there) so it's time they gave something back to this area that has had to sacrifice so much for their development.
So what does everyone think of this idea?
How often do the tires need to be changed on a monorail?
Matt
Rubber tires have been hitting cement highways for decades, what's the difference for a "monorail"? Monorail looks like a non-completed highway project to me, and I see these overpasses and such going up all the time and they will never stop going up. Why not a monorail?
6 rails? Well aren't we into semantics. Power has to be fed somehow I guess. In that regard,I guess NYCT subways aren't real 2 track trains. They got that 3rd rail, and those inner rails on turns, maybe making it 5 railed. Therefore, in that logic NYC doesn't have real trains.
The only reason I can see monorail not being done is that monorail isn't commuter(though could be, but too expensive as bridges are the most expensive thing to build, and monorail is one big bridge), and it isnt' LRT, monorail is more rapid transit, and we dont' have cities and area's that need rapid transit anymore, with very few exceptions.
There is a group of concerned citizens in Seattle who are contesting that city's monorail project, claiming that the monorail proponents misled voters in the monorail election campaign. For more information go here:
http://exordia.net/monorailrecall/
The issue of compatiblity is BS anyway, the FRA and FTA have killed off any comingling of subways or rail. It's not like NYCTA or WMATA will ever run on the tracks owned by CSX or Amtrak, indeed cars today aren't even delivered on their own trucks. The exsisting "compatible' systems might as well be monorails, they're nearly completely incompatible in all forms other than track layout. After all, NYCTA's system was built to be incompatible with the freight and commuter lines, so arguing compatibility with the national network in a debate over a mode of transit is pretty much moot anyway, August Belmont saw to that 100 years ago.
I'm not sure if you're familiar with the american west, remember that most cities out west grew up in a post-NCL country and as such do not have the railroad backbone that holds the metropolitan and suburban areas of Philadelphia, New York, Boston and Chicago together. Los Angeles is lucky enough to have a reasonably good rail network which allowed a radial Metrolink system to be created, and San Fransisco, along with UMTA, forced BART through, despite massively high costs. But what of cities which lack even basic rail infrastructure, and indeed who's geography may be hostile to a commuter rail or LRV system? Specifically I'm thinking of Seattle here, they are the only city in the country currently working on a true transit monorail system, and they may be the only city in which a monorail holds chief advantages over LRVs. For one thing, Seattle is built on a isthmus, trapped between Puget Sound and Lake Washington, as such the rail infrastructure enters the city from the north or south. This is terrific if you're in Tukwila, Renton, Federal Way, Everett, Edmonds or Mukilteo, but sadly the highways struck out across Lake Washington, and in the 1960s (and more rapidly in the 90s) the suburbs of Bellevue, Kirkland, Issaquah, and others have exploded in population. For the residents of these communities to recieve rail transit to the CBD, they'd have to sit on a train as it rolls around Lake Washington, to approach from either the north or south. The savings in time would be minimal, and that's the primary way to get people out of their cars. With a monorail system across lake washington (provided by a rebuild of the SR. 520 floating bridge with monorail tracks), Seattle would have IRT-like capacity for moving people across the lake. If the entire King County regional monorail system were built to the same standards then it would be more compatible than the NYCTA system is with itself.
Now I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a transit system which is "incompatible" with the national network than no system at all.
May as well throw in former CNJ Main Line and Newark & New York Branch being converted to HBLRT—it'll never go back to FRA rail . . .
THE Centennial Exposition in 1876 had a steam operated monorail that connected the exhibits on east side of the Schuylkill River with those on the west side.
But then again it proberly cant be done because there would be no easy way to turn the wheels if theres no room.
Then explain how autos are able to parallel-park in such small spaces (relative to their own size). While autos are much smaller than trains, any vehicle, properly programmed and guided, should be able to make some sort of turn. We just need to build a bit of space into the junctions.
CARS USE RUBBER WHEELS.
TRAINS USE STEEL WHEELS.
Only trains that use rubber wheels are properly fit trains that need a special set up of track, and APM's use rubber wheels most of the time.
So rethink your statement and try to correct it.
Oh and also, a monorail that stalls or has a fire very high up on pylon will be difficult to reach and evacuate "commuters." Take a look at what happened in Seattle the other day (fire). The only practical application I can think of for a monorail in the tri-state area (discount AirTrain Newark) is maybe if people wanted a train service on the High Line, but a 7 train extension there would be a better deal (however, this would be as noisy as hell with the curves), or a special built light rail line, a la Docklands Light rail in London (though this does have subway sections...).
A similar example of a rail technology not be successful or implemented, is a 4 track subway line, express and local, UNDERGROUND. I know in Philly they have one, but is rarely used and that subway was built very early on, therefore its builders were able to rip open the street. I think I saw somewhere that in Chicago, there is a part of the Chicago El with 4 tracks - local and express. I can't think of any other examples of a 4 track line for a subway. Bottom line: some places are ripe for 4 track lines, but other aren't.
Another Bottom Line: What works in one part of the world will always not work in another (sorta like how some people stop nosebleeds by blowing their nose very hard, but hemophiliacs could die in the process).
Okay, I'm done.
Hmmm. Well, there is Park Avenue South/Lexington Ave, Sixth Avenue, Seventh Avenue, Broadway and Eight Avenue, in Manhattan, for examples. Okay, Manhattan is possibly the only place in the universe where such a configuration will ever exist. But as a concept, a four track local/express subway is by no means impractical or not successful. It works...as long as your city core consists of a gridwork street pattern with long, very intensively developed avenues and where the level of high density development extends outward to the cities edge. I'm sure there are at least SOME sections of SOME cities other than NY where such a pattern exists. Sadly though, we will still never see any more four-track subway lines ever be constructed again. I just don't think you can correctly say that the concept is not viable. Mainly, it's not needed outside of NY.
That's not a valid comparison of the differences between traditional dual-rail and monorail.
Bah, butterfingers tonight.
But yet again, not valid. Don't automobiles and airplanes work the same all over the world?
First, show how using a monorail in place of a two-rail system would produce as different of results as treating the nosebleeds of hæmophiliacs and non-hæmophiliacs in the same manner. I maintain that the results will not be different.
Here you can see the storm door and ramp on the inside of a Hitachi Light Monorail train in Okinawa:
But I think the newer cars for the tokyo-haneda dont have front doors with some other versions having them.
Again, sorry but I didn't find the same page on their English version. You can see a clearer picture of the newest series 2000 on their English top page.
I was just lazy and tired to correct myself. :P
Problems, no, just variation in complexity of switches. If monorails were prevalent, then any expenses associated thereof would be a non-issue.
Ever see the EWR monorail switches? There are rotating sections that contain two parallel tracks, a switch track between 1 and 2, and a switch track between 2 and 1. To switch from one to the other, the sections rotate on a horizontal axis. Quite heavier and larger than with a two-track switch, but it is what it is.
Yes, but they're a crappy switch design. Click here to see better methods, albeit from a less than impartial source. There's a lot to be said against monorails, but the "switches are crap" accusation is false.
Actually, I quite like monorails, so I would argue that they are indeed great. Pity the one 20 miles from where I live got torn down.
I need to run some bmt trains already , i want my D , and i hope its signed up for the Brighton Line NOT west End..............
D to Brighton Beach!!
I am curious why the R-12's are still wrong ?
D to bRighton Beach!!
I think MTH is trying hard to deliver everything that has been delayed. They have alot coming out later "this year."
SECAUCUS - At 4 p.m. on a typical weekday, New Jersey's largest
train station is pretty much empty, according to the Newhouse News
Service.
Classical music plays softly in background while nine people linger in
the clean and cavernous atrium at Secaucus Junction. Down below,
the boarding platforms are just as quiet, except when trains rumble
into the $600 million station, a place where passengers can make
connections with most of the state's main rail lines.
Meanwhile, across the Hudson River at the Port Authority's bus
terminal, commuters are rushing through the halls to catch their rides
home. Lines of people are forming for buses heading to Rutherford,
Clifton, Garfield and Paterson - all destinations for trains passing
through Secaucus Junction. But people waiting for the buses doubt
they would be better off using the new rail station.
"You have to get off one train and on another one, it sounds like an
inconvenience," said Monica Gelianas of Rutherford.
"The bus is more regular," said Steve Motyka of Clifton. "If I miss a
train, might have to wait 30, 40 minutes for the next one."
After six months of weekday operation at Secaucus Junction, NJ
Transit officials are still trying to sell commuters on its benefits,
hoping to lure more passengers to facility that likely will produce a
deficit of almost $30 million in the coming year.
Rail riders make about 5,600 trips a day through the transfer station's
turnstiles, according to NJ Transit. That number falls short of the
projections NJ Transit made last September when the agency said
Secaucus Junction would handle 7,500 riders a day within its first six
months. The number comes nowhere near the 30,000 daily passengers
officials promised as recently as three years ago while the station
was being built.
NJ Transit officials are preaching patience, and the agency's executive
director says the station's success should be judged "not just a
decade, but a generation from now.
"The number of riders over the short haul from my point of view is
very inconsequential," said George Warrington, NJ Transit's top
executive. "As the economy revives and the related projects take off,
the numbers clearly will grow. I have to look at this from a broader
point of view. I look at this as a long-term investment to stimulate
the economy of New Jersey."
Warrington said Secaucus Junction has been adding 300 to 400 riders
per month and should reach about 8,500 by the end of the year.
"That's a successful launch," he said.
The station, which sits next to the New Jersey Turnpike's Eastern Spur
just south of Route 3, has added another strain to the agency's
finances.
NJ Transit's preliminary budget for the fiscal year that begins July 1
calculates that it will spend $44.1 million this year to operate
Secaucus Junction, an expense that will be offset partially by $15.9
million in fares and other revenue.
"It's not as bad as the squawkers like to make it out to be," said
Doug Bowen, president of the New Jersey Association of Railroad
Passengers. "I think people have seized on the negative too
aggressively."
For the most part, deficits are part of the norm for NJ Transit, a public
agency that depends on state subsidies to cover about half its
operating expenses. The Northeast Corridor is its only rail line that
makes money.
During the past decade, some new rail projects have been an
immediate success, such as the Midtown Direct Line that opened in
the summer of 1996. Others - like the light rail system in Hudson
County - have had slower starts.
By providing a connecting point for most of the state's passenger
trains, Secaucus Junction plays a key role in New Jersey's rail future.
It provides train access to downtown Newark from populous regions of
Passaic and Bergen counties. It makes Trenton, Rutgers University's
New Brunswick campus and the Jersey Shore all easily reachable by
train for people from Essex and Morris counties.
Greg Alston of Westwood in Bergen County is the kind of commuter
who highlights the advantages of the new station. He used to take
one train from Westwood to Hoboken, a second from Hoboken to
Newark Broad Street station and then a bus to his office near Newark
Penn Station. Now he simply transfers from one train to another in
Secaucus.
"It saves me 40 minutes a day," Alston said.
Others have benefited in less dramatic ways, shaving 10, 15 or 20
minutes from commutes that used to depend on transfers to the PATH
system or on buses.
"I would never go back to the bus," said Andree Jolicoeur of
Rutherford.
But many customers say there's room for improvement in Secaucus,
where timing is critical for the transfers to work well.
For example, if an evening train out of New York Penn Station gets
stalled, a commuter heading for Hackensack might not get to
Secaucus in time for the train heading north on the Pascack Valley
Line. In the evening rush, the next train for Hackensack might not
leave for another half an hour.
"When the trains are on time, it's great," said Barry Kornblum of
Ridgewood. "But if there's delays or something, then nothing works
right," he said, adding that delays are infrequent on his trains.
"They don't always seem to hook up all the time," said commuter John
Cirillo. "There's not enough connectivity."
In its efforts to draw more riders, NJ Transit has filled the gaps in its
schedules for several of the lines serving Secaucus Junction. In the
past year, the railroad has added 10 trains to its Bergen and Main line
schedules and six to Pascack Valley.
On weekends, the numbers are more dramatic. The Bergen and Main
lines have an extra 47 trains on Saturdays and 55 on Sundays.
In the long run, officials are counting on other factors to increase
ridership, such as the Xanadu development proposed for the
Meadowlands Sports Complex and the office buildings that will be
built on top of the station. Plans for the station-top complex envision
five buildings, 25 to 40 stories tall, with a total of 3.5 million square
feet, including a hotel.
Marc Joseph, executive vice president of the development company,
the Allied Junction Corp., said those plans have not changed, though
Allied is having discussions with a possible partner "that may have a
different idea about how they want to take the 3.5 million square feet
and develop it."
He said there is no time frame for the project.
"Our understanding is it will proceed expeditiously but without a time
schedule," Joseph said.
The Turnpike is building an interchange in Secaucus next to the train
station. At present, there is no public parking at the train station, and
transit officials say they would be hard-pressed to provide any at a
project designed to get people off the roads.
But Warrington said the new Turnpike interchange might provide an
opportunity to create a bus depot in Secaucus, almost a mini- Port
Authority terminal on this side of the Hudson River, where people
would switch from buses to trains.
"We are looking at a number of things for Secaucus Junction,"
Warrington said. "This is a service that will evolve in time."
(This item was distributed June 7, 2004, by the Newhouse News
Service.)
That sounds like it's gotta be like the worst commute ever! I would rather quit my job.
Seriously though. They said they get about 5xxx people a day with 8xxx projected, that's not that bad compared with other systems in their news items. Wonder what the proposed hotel is going to be.
That half brain gets pretty fried when the Lincoln tunnel has one of its periodic 1 hour backups. The train isn't much quicker, but the time is more consistent.
Mind ya, I'm not saying it's a waste of money, a joke, whatever - I was surprised that the article hadn't shown up here for discussion, so silly me, I went and posted it. My own take is that if it's doing a couple thousand already, then it's doing good for such a YOUNG "transportation center." And it DOES take a while for something new to become accepted.
I'd bet it would work a LOT better if NJT didn't have an idiot like Warrington running it. Some simple adjustment of schedules, holds if an inbound for a transfer is late (within reason). I haven't looked at the track layouts or figures for the lines serviced, but if it was handed over to ME as a responsibility to run, I'd look at serious shufflings of things to MAKE it work.
Completely CLUELESS as to where it is, it's purpose and what it actually CONNECTS to - I would expect first of all my trains to be ON TIME or no more than 5 minutes late with RARE situations caused by emergencies or breakdowns. That's another issue I'd want to deal with but let's jettison THAT potential thread for somewhere else. :)
If I had a terminal nexus of routine commuters from all directions, I'd be inclined to provide a set of frequent SHUTTLES finishing the trip to NYC or any other high-location traffic. Gotta change trains, awwwwww. And for those willing to pay a small PREMIUM, then some "through trains" to satisfy those who MUST have a one-seat ride. Let them PAY for that, it'll encourage the cheapskates to take a shuttle if it actually connects with trains and runs often enough that it's not much of a wait - across the platform, onto the train, find a seat and it starts to move. Nobody will mind if THIS is the case. But they don't want to ROT watching the platform for ten minutes except in rare "emergency" situations such as a hold to meet a train.
The "tracion industry" once made MONEY on a simple principle - "Toonervill Trolley that meets ALL trains" ... delays are infrequent NORMALLY. Holding a train that runs infrequently to meet a delayed, so long as it's less than 10 minutes at worst, isn't a big inconvenience if it happens RARELY. If it's more commonplace, or runs are so far apart, then let the SCHEDULED train go, roll in a GAP train or "extra" to meet the delayed one, and well ... that's the price you pay for not maintaining schedule. FIX IT. :)
Well ... this went on longer than I'd planned, and like I said, I know NOTHING about the "Secaucus Transfer", what it connects, where the branches all go or what its REAL purpose is. But it looks like it was intended to provide "to Manhattan" services from other points beside NEC and that section, replacing Hoboken and PATH as a fast way into the city. If this IS what it's for, then it should be doing MUCH better and that tells me that scheduling isn't as good as it could be to make it attractive as a fast way in and out. If it also allows "through service" from all the branches, but that would be insane for capacity, then that capacity limit should result in a "premium" service for those who won't change to a shuttle for NYC ...
Sounds like you are describing the principles of congestion pricing. I would be the first one to back that principle. The problem is that in the 30 years that people have been talking about doing it, only London managed to pull it off. Commuters are whining idiots.
London's congestion charge applies to road, not rail, traffic.
Most peak-hour train commuters into London have season tickets, which result in a price per ride that is quite a bit lower than a standard fare. Standard (i.e. high!) fares apply to non-regular peak-hour travellers. The rationale is that these are likely to be business travellers whose employers are paying their travel costs, to the meeting or whatever. After the peak hour, various cheaper fares become valid, which are attractive to those travelling at their own expense, for pleasure or personal activities.
I don't think you can really call this congestioon charging - if it was, *all* peak-hour travellers, regular or not, would have to pay a high fare. And whatever government brought that in would lose the next general election (8-) !
But results in a price per ride that is quite a bit higher than "Network Awaybreak", or off-peak standard fare. In fact off-peak standard fares are not valid on arrivals before 1000 (0930 on some lines) at their London Termini. It's market segmentation, with a congestion pricing logic built in; it's not real time congestion pricing -- but neither is the London highway pricing model.
I don't think you can really call this congestioon charging - if it was, *all* peak-hour travellers, regular or not, would have to pay a high fare.
No. The scheme you describe is called congestion pricing without market segmentation. You can still segment the market even with congestion charging.
AEM7
Not much higher, though it depends how many days you work, of course, and whether you make any extra trips to London at weekends. From Bedford (where I live) to London, assuming you work 200 days/year, you pay about 15 pounds per day round-trip if you have an annual season ticket. Less per day if you work more days, of course. The full return as paid by the occasional traveller going to London in the peak hour is about 30 pounds. The offpeak ticket is about 14 pounds, a little less than the season ticket. The cheapest ticket is a promotional offpeak fare restricted to Thameslink trains (not valid on Midland Mainline) of 10 pounds.
My experience up north is that no one, I mean NO ONE uses the annual season tickets. Firstly, forking over 300 pounds or whatever in one month to get the ticket is just beyond most people's means, and besides if you lost the ticket then the risk was too great. Thirdly what if you change commuting patterns half way through the year. In general people use monthly season tickets at most.
Then there is the fact that many leisure travellers do not pay the full Network Awaybreak fare -- due to railcard discounts etc which are not valid when you are buying season tickets or any peak time tickets for that matter.
When I commuted to Glasgow, it was always cheaper for me to buy tickets on a day-by-day basis, utilizing a peak outbound single ticket and an off-peak inbound discounted ticket (there were no restrictions in the afternoon). Doing this, and including the fact that when I didn't travel I didn't have to buy the ticket (but I didn't get paid either), worked out cheaper for me on the single fares than the monthlies.
AEM7
First off, I ***ADMIRE*** Dave Gunn. He was an ARROGANT little chit at the MTA, but he's FINALLY gotten the RIGHT balance of wisdom, and *I* salute him today! Having been an engineer-type, working for New York State government for a year with the MTA and 12 between the now-defunct NYS Commission on Cable TV, absorbed into the Public Service Commission where I rapidly had a snootful of "el toro caca" and QUIT, I've never gone for the boot-smooching, professional high intensity wanking, or mincing my words to suit some party doll stuffed in a suit, DUMPED in the agency because they weren't smart enough to go out for Dorm Authority or THRUWAY Authority, people SO stupid as to be able to block a bridge at 2AM.
I irked the QWAP out of my managers at EVERY opportunity ... like Dave Gunn, I was a manager who said "THIS is what it costs. What part of THIS IS WHAT IT COSTS don't you understand? THIS is what it costs. Either DO it, or DON'T!" Whereupon came the proverbial (as in the film "Used Cars") "THAT price is TOO phucking HIGH! We blow the CHIT out of high prices" styled "give me ALTERNATIVES" ... well, I'd do what I felt COULD be done at a lesser quality of result, but when that movement got down to that ratty line where an engineer will NOT allow further sinking into the swamp, I'd begin to offer REALLY BAD alternatives with "IF you want THIS, I insist upon it in WRITING." Heh. MAN the sandbags! (political appointees don't LIKE people who say "OK, genius") So to me, a person PERFECTLY capable of "Wing it or fling it", I *LOVE* Dave Gunn ... As Arthur Godfrey used to say, "There you are, and there's your picture" ...
But as to this "congestion pricing" my whole take was more in a "this is what we GOTS, this is what we CAN do, and anything outside that envelope costs X ... CHOOSE." Engineers are trained to provide MULTIPLE solutions to a particularly vexing problem and you NEVER face the clueless without anticipating that nothing you did a "gold plate" design on is going to happen. So you work your way back through silver, bronze, brass, copper, tinfoil and paper and HAVE a plan that will fly for each level. It results in engineering CREDIBILITY. When you have numerous ways to win and say "THIS is a brick wall" they don't question you. Such is GUNN, and he's DONE his homework. :)
So WHAT do we do? Like I said, I don't know the lay of the land as far as this operation goes. It LOOKS like it's destined to be a New Jersey Grand Central Station of sorts to provide direct connections to NYC and the REST of the railroad. If my GUESS is right, then with this new "transportation center" comes operational responsibilities. DRASTIC restructuring of the timetables would be proper *IF* my understanding is correct. If not, then f00k this whole concept. (grin)
But anyone trying to run a railroad would want to redo the timetables to make it work. You PAD the timetable from the origin point so that if a train was five minutes late LEAVING, it would still "make time" at its first stop. TOO many rail execs try to SHRINK the timetable away from the truth rather than "yeah, it takes longer than it used to and it's on paper, but we get you there SAFELY and we might actually show UP at that time. The WORST thing that can occur on transit is a train arriving EARLY ... that means most folks who arrive "fashionably late" will MISS their train and be really, really honked off. If they get there late and the train does too, it's not as bad as the converse. Railroad management has to get OVER themselves and recognize this. Passenger complexities along the line can ALSO slow a train. Schedules should provide the extra time built-in: this allows a little bit of slack and trains can wait until scheduled departure.
After adjusting the SCHEDULES, we turn to the EMPLOYEES. With a REALISTIC schedule, employees don't get cheated out of their OWN personal time. They GET their lunch, they GET their break. They become HAPPIER and more DEDICATED to the railroad because suddenly they're getting their basic requirements and the pressure isn't as insane. MOTIVATED employees are happier and present a happier face to the public. Civil Service though somehow seems obsessed with TRASHING this simple concept. But that TOO is jettisoned for another thread tangent.
Running a railroad CAN be done sanely - and as a final toss, the concept of PREMIUM service (one seat ride) is justifiable if it is part of a greater improvement in service. How many LIRR riders know those fateful words, "CHANGE AT JAMAICA?" And yet, even now, so many have to ... THOSE riders would pay for a through train if it was THAT important. However, to many LIRR and MNRR commuters from say POUGHKEEPSIE, landing at Croton ... it's NO big thang really as LONG as there is a train waiting, ready to MOVE. :)
To do such a massive shakeup of a railroad, expectations, and then turn around and have the stones to do what I suggest seems just entirely out of the realm of Warrington's "anatomically correct like a Ken doll, or "hung like hamster" regime at NJT. However, if they want to come up with some money, fire the witch and put ME in charge, I could find a way to make it work, boost employee morale and have a working solution where commuters could TRUST the railroad sufficiently to actually USE the facility because it's BETTER.
That pretty well describes New York-area lines too.
North from Secaucus, the Main/Bergen County lines split apart (only to later reunite further up the line) on their way to Suffern and Port Jervis (which is run by Metro-North). The Pascack Valley Line splits from the Main/Bergen County Lines before they split their separate ways, and cuts through Hackensack on its way to Spring Valley, NY. Heading west, the MiDTown DIRECT electric trains run through Newark (Broad Street Station) towards Montclair, Boonton, Denville, Dover, Gladstone, Morristown, and Hackettstown (Boonton, Montclair, Hackettstown only seeing weekday service, however, the Boonton and Morristown Lines meet up in Dover, with the Morristown Line running weekends. Gladstone Branch also runs the weekend through). North Jersey Coast line trains and the Northeast Corridor Line head through Newark (Penn Station) and Newark Int'l Airport before splitting at Rahway for service to Monmouth County, Long Branch and Bay Head (often via diesel shuttle) or New Brunswick and Trenton respectively.
For whatever reason (I guess due to there being only two tubes under the Hudson River to let trains into NYC, despite the four-track configuration at Secaucus and the SIX-TRACK layout in Newark), the Raritan Valley Line (to Union, Cranford, Raritan and High Bridge) only runs as far as Newark Penn, and anyone needing to get to/from it must change trains there and AGAIN at Secaucus if need be. For OBVIOUS reasons, the Atlantic City Line has nothing to do with Secaucus Transfer.
However, people in NJ are unfamiliar with the SJ facility. I asked sewveral people as to which NJ Transit station was best to park my car during the weekend and take the train to the city. Most people instead pointed me to taking the express busses that use the Lincoln Tunnel to the Port Authority Terminal.
For a Secaucus loop, they would have to invent a Catenary/dual-mode engine, which MMC would be too inept to maintain, crawl around a 270 degree curve upgrade and hope for a slot on the NEC, and give rush hour slots to little 4 and 6 cars trains to NYP, with many having no desire to go there. It is ridiculous.
I took this trip to illustrate what NJT is trying to sell, and I can vouch for them, it is quite convenient. The trip went as follows:
RiverLINE from Camden To Trenton
NEC from Trenton to Secaucus
BCL from Secaucus to Paterson
Total trip time [including waiting time] 2 hours 45 minutes.
I do not think this trip can be made by car in that amount of time.
Why is NJ Transit still providing bus service from Port Authority? This is duplicate effort and wasteful subsidization. Port Authority managed to get the bus service cut in order to increase ridership for the Airtrain. It's time they discontinue these slow moving bus routes to Rutherford, Clifton, Garfield and Paterson to get more ridership for the Secacus Junction. It's insanity when you consider how much money they spent on this hub and yet they continue to finance these bus routes.
To be totally honest, I'm not even aware of the benefits of the Secaucus hub and tend to travel to Penn Station for service to the Coastline. It's time NJ transit show the time savings from taking rail while while getting passengers off those bus routes and over to rail.
Keep the bus service as is. If people want to switch to the 2 seat ride rail service, so be it.
That sounds like it's gotta be like the worst commute ever! I would rather quit my job.
Seriously though. They said they get about 5xxx people a day with 8xxx projected, that's not that bad compared with other systems in their news items. Wonder what the proposed hotel is going to be.
That half brain gets pretty fried when the Lincoln tunnel has one of its periodic 1 hour backups. The train isn't much quicker, but the time is more consistent.
Mind ya, I'm not saying it's a waste of money, a joke, whatever - I was surprised that the article hadn't shown up here for discussion, so silly me, I went and posted it. My own take is that if it's doing a couple thousand already, then it's doing good for such a YOUNG "transportation center." And it DOES take a while for something new to become accepted.
I'd bet it would work a LOT better if NJT didn't have an idiot like Warrington running it. Some simple adjustment of schedules, holds if an inbound for a transfer is late (within reason). I haven't looked at the track layouts or figures for the lines serviced, but if it was handed over to ME as a responsibility to run, I'd look at serious shufflings of things to MAKE it work.
Completely CLUELESS as to where it is, it's purpose and what it actually CONNECTS to - I would expect first of all my trains to be ON TIME or no more than 5 minutes late with RARE situations caused by emergencies or breakdowns. That's another issue I'd want to deal with but let's jettison THAT potential thread for somewhere else. :)
If I had a terminal nexus of routine commuters from all directions, I'd be inclined to provide a set of frequent SHUTTLES finishing the trip to NYC or any other high-location traffic. Gotta change trains, awwwwww. And for those willing to pay a small PREMIUM, then some "through trains" to satisfy those who MUST have a one-seat ride. Let them PAY for that, it'll encourage the cheapskates to take a shuttle if it actually connects with trains and runs often enough that it's not much of a wait - across the platform, onto the train, find a seat and it starts to move. Nobody will mind if THIS is the case. But they don't want to ROT watching the platform for ten minutes except in rare "emergency" situations such as a hold to meet a train.
The "tracion industry" once made MONEY on a simple principle - "Toonervill Trolley that meets ALL trains" ... delays are infrequent NORMALLY. Holding a train that runs infrequently to meet a delayed, so long as it's less than 10 minutes at worst, isn't a big inconvenience if it happens RARELY. If it's more commonplace, or runs are so far apart, then let the SCHEDULED train go, roll in a GAP train or "extra" to meet the delayed one, and well ... that's the price you pay for not maintaining schedule. FIX IT. :)
Well ... this went on longer than I'd planned, and like I said, I know NOTHING about the "Secaucus Transfer", what it connects, where the branches all go or what its REAL purpose is. But it looks like it was intended to provide "to Manhattan" services from other points beside NEC and that section, replacing Hoboken and PATH as a fast way into the city. If this IS what it's for, then it should be doing MUCH better and that tells me that scheduling isn't as good as it could be to make it attractive as a fast way in and out. If it also allows "through service" from all the branches, but that would be insane for capacity, then that capacity limit should result in a "premium" service for those who won't change to a shuttle for NYC ...
Sounds like you are describing the principles of congestion pricing. I would be the first one to back that principle. The problem is that in the 30 years that people have been talking about doing it, only London managed to pull it off. Commuters are whining idiots.
London's congestion charge applies to road, not rail, traffic.
Most peak-hour train commuters into London have season tickets, which result in a price per ride that is quite a bit lower than a standard fare. Standard (i.e. high!) fares apply to non-regular peak-hour travellers. The rationale is that these are likely to be business travellers whose employers are paying their travel costs, to the meeting or whatever. After the peak hour, various cheaper fares become valid, which are attractive to those travelling at their own expense, for pleasure or personal activities.
I don't think you can really call this congestioon charging - if it was, *all* peak-hour travellers, regular or not, would have to pay a high fare. And whatever government brought that in would lose the next general election (8-) !
But results in a price per ride that is quite a bit higher than "Network Awaybreak", or off-peak standard fare. In fact off-peak standard fares are not valid on arrivals before 1000 (0930 on some lines) at their London Termini. It's market segmentation, with a congestion pricing logic built in; it's not real time congestion pricing -- but neither is the London highway pricing model.
I don't think you can really call this congestioon charging - if it was, *all* peak-hour travellers, regular or not, would have to pay a high fare.
No. The scheme you describe is called congestion pricing without market segmentation. You can still segment the market even with congestion charging.
AEM7
Not much higher, though it depends how many days you work, of course, and whether you make any extra trips to London at weekends. From Bedford (where I live) to London, assuming you work 200 days/year, you pay about 15 pounds per day round-trip if you have an annual season ticket. Less per day if you work more days, of course. The full return as paid by the occasional traveller going to London in the peak hour is about 30 pounds. The offpeak ticket is about 14 pounds, a little less than the season ticket. The cheapest ticket is a promotional offpeak fare restricted to Thameslink trains (not valid on Midland Mainline) of 10 pounds.
My experience up north is that no one, I mean NO ONE uses the annual season tickets. Firstly, forking over 300 pounds or whatever in one month to get the ticket is just beyond most people's means, and besides if you lost the ticket then the risk was too great. Thirdly what if you change commuting patterns half way through the year. In general people use monthly season tickets at most.
Then there is the fact that many leisure travellers do not pay the full Network Awaybreak fare -- due to railcard discounts etc which are not valid when you are buying season tickets or any peak time tickets for that matter.
When I commuted to Glasgow, it was always cheaper for me to buy tickets on a day-by-day basis, utilizing a peak outbound single ticket and an off-peak inbound discounted ticket (there were no restrictions in the afternoon). Doing this, and including the fact that when I didn't travel I didn't have to buy the ticket (but I didn't get paid either), worked out cheaper for me on the single fares than the monthlies.
AEM7
First off, I ***ADMIRE*** Dave Gunn. He was an ARROGANT little chit at the MTA, but he's FINALLY gotten the RIGHT balance of wisdom, and *I* salute him today! Having been an engineer-type, working for New York State government for a year with the MTA and 12 between the now-defunct NYS Commission on Cable TV, absorbed into the Public Service Commission where I rapidly had a snootful of "el toro caca" and QUIT, I've never gone for the boot-smooching, professional high intensity wanking, or mincing my words to suit some party doll stuffed in a suit, DUMPED in the agency because they weren't smart enough to go out for Dorm Authority or THRUWAY Authority, people SO stupid as to be able to block a bridge at 2AM.
I irked the QWAP out of my managers at EVERY opportunity ... like Dave Gunn, I was a manager who said "THIS is what it costs. What part of THIS IS WHAT IT COSTS don't you understand? THIS is what it costs. Either DO it, or DON'T!" Whereupon came the proverbial (as in the film "Used Cars") "THAT price is TOO phucking HIGH! We blow the CHIT out of high prices" styled "give me ALTERNATIVES" ... well, I'd do what I felt COULD be done at a lesser quality of result, but when that movement got down to that ratty line where an engineer will NOT allow further sinking into the swamp, I'd begin to offer REALLY BAD alternatives with "IF you want THIS, I insist upon it in WRITING." Heh. MAN the sandbags! (political appointees don't LIKE people who say "OK, genius") So to me, a person PERFECTLY capable of "Wing it or fling it", I *LOVE* Dave Gunn ... As Arthur Godfrey used to say, "There you are, and there's your picture" ...
But as to this "congestion pricing" my whole take was more in a "this is what we GOTS, this is what we CAN do, and anything outside that envelope costs X ... CHOOSE." Engineers are trained to provide MULTIPLE solutions to a particularly vexing problem and you NEVER face the clueless without anticipating that nothing you did a "gold plate" design on is going to happen. So you work your way back through silver, bronze, brass, copper, tinfoil and paper and HAVE a plan that will fly for each level. It results in engineering CREDIBILITY. When you have numerous ways to win and say "THIS is a brick wall" they don't question you. Such is GUNN, and he's DONE his homework. :)
So WHAT do we do? Like I said, I don't know the lay of the land as far as this operation goes. It LOOKS like it's destined to be a New Jersey Grand Central Station of sorts to provide direct connections to NYC and the REST of the railroad. If my GUESS is right, then with this new "transportation center" comes operational responsibilities. DRASTIC restructuring of the timetables would be proper *IF* my understanding is correct. If not, then f00k this whole concept. (grin)
But anyone trying to run a railroad would want to redo the timetables to make it work. You PAD the timetable from the origin point so that if a train was five minutes late LEAVING, it would still "make time" at its first stop. TOO many rail execs try to SHRINK the timetable away from the truth rather than "yeah, it takes longer than it used to and it's on paper, but we get you there SAFELY and we might actually show UP at that time. The WORST thing that can occur on transit is a train arriving EARLY ... that means most folks who arrive "fashionably late" will MISS their train and be really, really honked off. If they get there late and the train does too, it's not as bad as the converse. Railroad management has to get OVER themselves and recognize this. Passenger complexities along the line can ALSO slow a train. Schedules should provide the extra time built-in: this allows a little bit of slack and trains can wait until scheduled departure.
After adjusting the SCHEDULES, we turn to the EMPLOYEES. With a REALISTIC schedule, employees don't get cheated out of their OWN personal time. They GET their lunch, they GET their break. They become HAPPIER and more DEDICATED to the railroad because suddenly they're getting their basic requirements and the pressure isn't as insane. MOTIVATED employees are happier and present a happier face to the public. Civil Service though somehow seems obsessed with TRASHING this simple concept. But that TOO is jettisoned for another thread tangent.
Running a railroad CAN be done sanely - and as a final toss, the concept of PREMIUM service (one seat ride) is justifiable if it is part of a greater improvement in service. How many LIRR riders know those fateful words, "CHANGE AT JAMAICA?" And yet, even now, so many have to ... THOSE riders would pay for a through train if it was THAT important. However, to many LIRR and MNRR commuters from say POUGHKEEPSIE, landing at Croton ... it's NO big thang really as LONG as there is a train waiting, ready to MOVE. :)
To do such a massive shakeup of a railroad, expectations, and then turn around and have the stones to do what I suggest seems just entirely out of the realm of Warrington's "anatomically correct like a Ken doll, or "hung like hamster" regime at NJT. However, if they want to come up with some money, fire the witch and put ME in charge, I could find a way to make it work, boost employee morale and have a working solution where commuters could TRUST the railroad sufficiently to actually USE the facility because it's BETTER.
That pretty well describes New York-area lines too.
North from Secaucus, the Main/Bergen County lines split apart (only to later reunite further up the line) on their way to Suffern and Port Jervis (which is run by Metro-North). The Pascack Valley Line splits from the Main/Bergen County Lines before they split their separate ways, and cuts through Hackensack on its way to Spring Valley, NY. Heading west, the MiDTown DIRECT electric trains run through Newark (Broad Street Station) towards Montclair, Boonton, Denville, Dover, Gladstone, Morristown, and Hackettstown (Boonton, Montclair, Hackettstown only seeing weekday service, however, the Boonton and Morristown Lines meet up in Dover, with the Morristown Line running weekends. Gladstone Branch also runs the weekend through). North Jersey Coast line trains and the Northeast Corridor Line head through Newark (Penn Station) and Newark Int'l Airport before splitting at Rahway for service to Monmouth County, Long Branch and Bay Head (often via diesel shuttle) or New Brunswick and Trenton respectively.
For whatever reason (I guess due to there being only two tubes under the Hudson River to let trains into NYC, despite the four-track configuration at Secaucus and the SIX-TRACK layout in Newark), the Raritan Valley Line (to Union, Cranford, Raritan and High Bridge) only runs as far as Newark Penn, and anyone needing to get to/from it must change trains there and AGAIN at Secaucus if need be. For OBVIOUS reasons, the Atlantic City Line has nothing to do with Secaucus Transfer.
However, people in NJ are unfamiliar with the SJ facility. I asked sewveral people as to which NJ Transit station was best to park my car during the weekend and take the train to the city. Most people instead pointed me to taking the express busses that use the Lincoln Tunnel to the Port Authority Terminal.
The Downtown Historic Railway has its own page on the Vancouver TRAMS website, which tells you all you need to know about schedules etc etc. Anyone with even a passing interest in trains who is in Vancouver on weekend should make a trip on this line a must, and after you've finished there is the bustling Granville Island Market to enjoy.
I also have plenty of the vintage operations of streetcars in San Francisco here.
Joseph Cartercq? haha That's a new name for the dood.
I think their policies are cool. For once the T is doing something right, and before crap happens. So hopefully they won't be in crisis-management mode if something happens.
Knowing the T police, I don't think the riders have anything to fear. Some of the officers have an attention span of 2 weeks, so they'll search people for 2 weeks then they'll get bored and go onto more interesting things like catching vandals or arresting high school kids getting into fights at T stops.
My (fairly strong) belief is that transit authorities only have the responsibility to look after the safety and security of transit riders, and not the entire population. So if people choose to be stupid and drive instead because of the possibility of being search, then they should understand that there are consequences (e.g. they might be maimed in a car wreck). The transit guys don't care about that. Maybe the State government does, in which case the State government would need to direct the MBTA to act.
I think you are over-estimating (a) dangers of the highway (b) the demand elasticity of transit riders. In my experience, most riders will put up with minor inconveniences such as being searched, when traded against the major inconveniences of looking for parking downtown and fighting traffic. Also, most highway wrecks occur with either inexperienced drivers or high-speed drivers. Commuting drivers tend to be experienced (since they drive everyday), and tend not to get into high speed wrecks (since the highways are clogged anyway). If people want to sit in traffic, I think the MBTA should tell them, "be my guest". Boston has a highway system that is crappy enough that most rush hour passengers are riding by choice.
AEM7
Let's see... I've put up with having to pay $3 each way plus $2.50 to park at Riverside, the confusing payment policy (dollar coins only?!), and the fact that the damned thing shuts down at 1:00. I've taken days out of work to get there on a business day to obtain a photo permit. Now I have to take a day off 5-10 days in advance of my trip for a background check to get my permit, and, as a passenger, I have to submit myself to random searches? No thanks; I'll drive if I have to go to Boston, and I won't be making any trips just to railfan.
If you happen to have a baby in the household, save all the dirty diapers, especially the "poopers", and stuff them in the backpack. Let them sit around until they get very smelly.
That would most likely land someone in trouble. Poo is a public health hazard. Intentionally "presenting" it to an officer could also be considered assault. I don't think that would make for a terribly good day.
I would not let them search me without a search warrant or MAYBE probable cause. They have no right. This is getting ridiculous. People need to stop depending on the government for everything and take some responsibility. They also need to evaluate risks. If you are a park- or kiss-and-ride passenger, you're more likely to get injured on your way to the train station. If you think the train is too high of a risk, don't take it. More room for me. I'll take my chances on the train without these crazy searches. If they want sniffing dogs, that is fine. If a dog sniffs me and flags me, then they can take further action. Otherwise they can leave me alone and let me go about my business (taking pictures ;) ) because I have accepted that risk and chosen to ride the train.
Matt
Then they take you in, and introduce you to your cellmate Bubba.
>>This is getting ridiculous. People need to stop depending on the government for everything and take some responsibility. <<
A-fucking-men!
>>If you think the train is too high of a risk, don't take it. More room for me. I'll take my chances on the train without these crazy searches. If they want sniffing dogs, that is fine. If a dog sniffs me and flags me, then they can take further action. <<
Exactly. I'll even pay for the diapers and the brown pants for those who are too skeered to get on the train.
Can anyone draw? I have an idea for a cartoon.
John Ashcroft putting on a Darth Vader costume, telling an aide:
"Why can't I? The SURGEON general gets to wear HIS uniform?"
Hmmm... maybe I'll give it a shot.
RAW, VIBRANT, UNDERGROUND: AN EVENING IN THE LIILAA
A fundraiser for the beat poetry musical SUBWAY TRAIN
"Subway Train puts a stethoscope to the pulse of the bustling masses and uncovers emotional landscapes not readily available in the everyday." - getunderground.com
In preparation for the 2004 New York International Fringe Festival, the Liilaa Company (pronounced lee-lah) presents "An Evening in the Liilaa," a fundraiser for SUBWAY TRAIN - A Beat Poetry Musical. Taking place on June 21st at New York's hottest new venue, Crash Mansion located at 199 Bowery at Spring Street, the evening will feature Liilaa Records artists the Katy Pfaffl Band and Swim, plus live performances from SUBWAY TRAIN. There will be two different programs at 8pm and 11pm featuring both bands and the SUBWAY TRAIN cast, plus a DJ and dancing throughout the night. General admission for the whole evening is $20, with VIP tickets for reserved seating and hors d’oeuvre reception at BLVD with the Liilaa Company for $60. Advance tickets at TicketWeb.com 866-468-7619.
The Liilaa Company was founded by Joshua Kobak, Katy Pfaffl, and Mickey Fisher and produced their first show The Colors Of Love in 1997 at the New York International Fringe Festival. Independently, Joshua Kobak has appeared in RENT on tour and on Broadway in addition to performing with his band, Swim and releasing his album "Above and Beneath." Katy Pfaffl, a Manhattan based voice teacher/coach, recently released "As She Stands" the acoustic soul-folk follow-up to her 2001 self-titled debut album and performs regularly at The Living Room in the East Village. Mickey Fisher of Leo's Pride Entertainment recently wrote, directed, and appeared in the forthcoming independent feature film "The King Of Iron Town." The Liilaa Company's new musical, SUBWAY TRAIN, has been in development over the past 6 years and was previously presented as a work-in-progress piece in 1998 at The Duplex Cabaret, Show World Center in 1999 and 2003, and in 2003 and 2004 with presentations at the Bowery Poetry Club.
Sharing the stage with Kobak, Pfaffl and Fisher on June 21st will be Yassmin Alers (RENT, The Rocky Horror Show, The Capeman) and NYC musicians Sean Dixon, Sebastian Guerrero, Justin Wallace, Dan Johnson, Danton Boller of the Jazz Mandolin Project, and Matt Caplan who can currently be seen on Broadway in RENT as the filmmaker Mark Cohen.
You may have had an evening in celebration, reflection, or ecstasy, but you've never had "An Evening in the Liilaa."
For more information on SUBWAY TRAIN visit www.subway-train.com
If it happens a 3rd time maybe Dave should charge them for advertising.
For a Secaucus loop, they would have to invent a Catenary/dual-mode engine, which MMC would be too inept to maintain, crawl around a 270 degree curve upgrade and hope for a slot on the NEC, and give rush hour slots to little 4 and 6 cars trains to NYP, with many having no desire to go there. It is ridiculous.
Whatever you are on - get help!
I took this trip to illustrate what NJT is trying to sell, and I can vouch for them, it is quite convenient. The trip went as follows:
RiverLINE from Camden To Trenton
NEC from Trenton to Secaucus
BCL from Secaucus to Paterson
Total trip time [including waiting time] 2 hours 45 minutes.
I do not think this trip can be made by car in that amount of time.
AEM7
Well walking in their yards is a rule violation anyway. As for photos, it's just a question of having a car and being able to get away quick enough if you spot GRS cops. But they don't have that many cops anyway because they've cut their staff to the bone. GRS is just anti-everything, not just anti-railfan.
Jack
Decide for yourselves.
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/editorial/25343.htm
"June 8, 2004 -- Fearing that terrorists may use cameras to help plan an attack in the subways, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority is considering banning their unauthorized use throughout the subway system.
That would be a pity.
But it may be necessary.
Look at it this way: Inconveniences are necessary in post-9/11 New York, and a subway camera ban may be one of them.
Even if some folks are none too happy about it: Over the weekend, about 40 shutterbugs launched an impromptu "protest," train-hopping and taking as many pictures as possible.
But while the policy change may be easy to mock, it's not unreasonable to fear an attack on the subway system. Federal, state and local authorities have been worrying about just that for years.
Furthermore, two Yemenis taking pictures of federal buildings here in the spring of 2001 — while innocent themselves — may have been asked to do so by a known terrorist.
Why?
Possibly to help identify the best — that is to say, the deadliest — place to plant a bomb.
Memories of the Madrid railway bombing linger. This isn't a minor point.
So if the MTA board OK's the proposed ban, subway shutterbugs could be ticketed — and possibly have their film or digital memory cards confiscated.
But, notwithstanding the security issues, it is necessary to proceed carefully.
Mayor Bloomberg recently called for balance: "If somebody's there with a high-powered camera at the front of the train trying to photograph switches and signal boxes, maybe there is something going on, but if there are some tourists and they want to take pictures of each other on the subway train — come on, get real."
Let's face it: New York's subway system is not merely mass transit — it is a tourist attraction in and of itself.
It's part of the New York experience.
And that must be respected.
A ban would likely go into effect in September after a 45-day public comment period, following the printing of the updated New York City Rules of Conduct in the New York State register.
Let the honest discussion begin. "
I suppose the Post allows ANY reporter to phone it in without benefit of a breathalyser. (grin)
Does anyone know where this confiscation concept came from? The "official" proposed changes do not change the penalties for breaking DA RULEZ. They remain at $25 and/or 10 days in jail.
No one has ever accused the Post of having an obsession with accuracy.
That doesn't happen much!!!
Jimmymc25
Yor editorial on Subway Photography is ill-advised. The freedoms that Americans enjoy are more precious than and outweigh any risk of random terriorism. Terrorists do not need photographs. But if we surrender our freedoms to them, they have won a victory that they could not have otherwise achieved. Freedom has a price, and it is not all collected in the form of taxes. We have always claimed that we fought for our freedom. Then why not now.
If you must keep people safe: Ban automobiles: they kill far more people than terrorists ever have.
Br. Elias Thienpont, OSB
Wake up.
The can and will continue to kill people. There is nothing that you or anybody else can do about that. The photo ban will not stop or hinder them in the least. Therefore, there is no reason for us to also surrender our freedoms on the altar of a false security.
Elias
There are many things *we* can do.
I joined the Navy when I was 17, and went to war in Vietnam. To fight for freedom, or so they said. And some must die so that others may live. Frodo said that in the "Lord of the Rings", but it is an old story.
*I* for one will NOT surrender the freedoms and liberties that are proper to living in America just because some terrorist has an agenda of his own. *MY* Agenda is freedom and liberty.
Now I will say this to you again: We should ban all automobiles, because more people are killed by automobiles than by all of the terrorists in the world, indeed more than who died in 9-11 and 3-11 combined. More die because of automobiles than died on the beaches of Normandy.
Banning Automobiles is something that we MUST do if we wish to be kept safe.
Elias
Heck I'm happy with a carpet or a hard wood floor for that matter...
Dark alleys should also be banned. Nothing good ever comes out of those.
I've seen enough of hospitals to know that when the doc pats me on the shoulder and gives me that look, I'm gonna call up Washington and see if I can get air-dropped into Afghanistan to go look for bin Laden - if I don't make it, I didn't have long for the world anyway.
Your editorial on subway photography "Picturing Subway Terror" is misguided and leans against the artistic values of photography in the subway, both professional and amateur. Way before 9/11, the NYC subway system endured many acts of terrorism; In 1927, two manhattan subway stations were bombed, casuing at least one fatality. In 1960, a mad bomber device struck and IND train in Harlem, and the most recent act of terrorism on 12/21/1994, a man "rigged" himself to go off on a #4 train at Fulton Street station in Manhattan, only one block where the WTC once stood (and survived the first bombing in 1993.) Why do we have to wait for the Madrid bombing as a reason for this ban? Why not ban riding the subway altogether and shut it down permanently?
Yet all these incidents, subway photography continued and flourished throughout the decades, and on one ever bother how dangerous picture taking was until 9/11 happened. Today, the majority of subway photographers are law-abiding citizens who do this as a hobby, not potential terrorists. Perhaps the MTA should be more dilligent in protecting it's customers than going after harlmess photographers.
I don't believe so. But I think this is exactly the crux of the problem - for many years we've had stringent security restrictions in place at what are usually called "hard targets" - military facilities, nuclear power plants, prisons, high-ranking government summits and the like. At such places it has become customary to expect summary abridgments of Constitutional liberties, or to be denied access or asked to leave for whatever reason at any time by any official. These places are few and far between, and most of us deal with them only on rare occasions. But now the authoritarians in society are trying to lump all sorts of other things - restaurants, trains, airports, the Superbowl, into the same category. Before long, these "innocuous" security restrictions will become the accepted status quo, to be followed by further "innocuous" abridgments of our freedoms (perhaps ones which we right now would find completely unacceptable, but under that new, more restrictive, status quo, might feel to be quite copacetic) and more and more and more, and pretty soon we've taken all these little, tiny, unobjectionable steps, and from where we are we can't even see where we started, and we've become a police state.
I would much, much, much, rather live in a state where occasionally the bad guys score a victory than in such a state, in which I'm free to be poked, prodded, frisked, wanded, patted down, sniffed by dogs, searched, questioned, harassed, and all sorts of other things, pretty much every place I go. If you don't believe me, if you don't believe that every infringement on civil liberties will be followed by even more, well, I'll spare you the annoyance of saying "I told you so" when it happens.
The point is, you can't guarantee safety with 100 % certainty so it's not an either/or situation (more of a shades-of-probability situation), and I'm a lot more afraid of the government's ability to oppress than I ever will be of a few thousand guys with diapers on their heads.
I personally think the solution is to go on living as before - don't change the laws and the way we do things unless there's a simple, sensible reason other than fear, and it's something that will not trample the Constitutional rights of citizens or prove an undue burden on all of us - after all, we *all* have to live our entire lives in this world and the laws and regulations it creates; only an extremely small minority will ever become victims of terrorist attack. And just because John Ashcroft, Dick Cheney, Orrin Hatch or Tom Daschle says some new government power is not going to be abused doesn't make it so; there is very good reason to be deeply suspicious of any government (or any authority figure) attempting what it claims to be a harmless power grab.
We've faced down much more dangerous enemies before. These ones are perhaps more brazen, because they have less to lose than most of our previous foes, but we've been down this road and worse before, and through it all we've somehow managed to maintain our viewpoint. And in those instances where our view of freedom has been obstructed (for example, the internment of Japanese-Americans), the verdict of history has in general been very damning.
Rumors are growing that the guv'mint (the Justice, State and Defense Depts) is about to have its ass handed to itself by the Supreme Court in regards to the Hamdi and Padilla cases, and the Guantanamo prisoners case. Now I'm not saying that these guys aren't guilty (because they almost certainly are guilty of something worthy of a lengthy jail sentence), but they still deserve the right to due process of law. The Moussaoui trial is actually quite scary - when Judge Brinkema threatened a mistrial in return for the government's refusal for Moussaoui to have access to witnesses currently in US custody, they simply replied that if a mistrial were declared they'd take him down for a military tribunal, where no such provisions for witnesses are required. Kind of like double jeopardy, but worse.
I wonder which way this whole discussion would be going if BUBBA had done this? :(
Your pal,
Fred
Buy that boy a case of Depends!
WWII restrictions were in place so that troop movements and equipment dispositions could not be guessed at by an enemy, and much less so because it could guide a bomber to a target. And our "enemy" today does not have the ability to select so fine a target that a photograph of it would make any difference.
Terrorism is terror, and it looks like they have accomplished THAT without making any additional attacks. (That is you are quaking in your own panic attack).
We now have an enemy that targets civilians and other targets with no military value
Many of the targets hit both by the Germans and by the British durring WWII had no tactical, strategic or military value other than terorism of the populace either.
There will always be warfare on this planet, and now that there is terrorism, there will always be terrorism, and no photo ban or box of Attends will change that. People will die because of these attacks, and there is nothing that will change this. But that in no reason for our liberty, our freedom to die along with it.
Apeasement in our time will solve nothing!
Elias
Because in every animal that walks upright, the Deficiency of the Fluids that fill the Muscles appears first in the highest Part: the Face first grows lank and wrinkled; then the Neck; then the Breast and Arms; the lower Parts continuing to the last as plump as ever: So that covering all above with a Basket, and regarding only what is below the Girdle, it is impossible of two Women to know an old from a young one. And as in the dark all Cats are grey, the Pleasure of corporal Enjoyment with an Old Woman is at least equal, and frequently superior, every Knack being by Practice capable of Improvement.
Or, as we say today, they all look the same upside down.
Are you sure you're not thinking of the Second Amendment Right: "A large and active railfan militia being necessary for the operation of the subway system, the right of the people to keep and bear cameras shall not be infinged?"
or
Nearly half a century of review and refinement of Establishment Clause jurisprudence has distilled one clear understanding: Government may neither promote nor affiliate itself with any religious doctrine or organization, nor may it obtrude itself in the internal affairs of any religious institution. __Justice Harry Blackmun, concurring opinion, Lee v. Weisman, 112 S. Ct. 2649 (1992)
I still respect him, for his encyclopedic knowledge of subway history, but I'm slightly surprised at the level of fear he seems to have. Everyone reacts differently, I suppose.
Let me pose the question from a different point of view. This debate is beginning to remind me of the gun control debate, and the "right to keep and bear arms" is in the Constitution, no matter how hard we try to explain it away.
I know perfectly nice people (including my late father-in-law) who love guns. Many of them never even shoot at anything alive. They go to their gun clubs and shoot at clay pigeons, they collect antique or specialized guns, they spend their spare hours reading gun magazines. I can say with confidence that none of them (of the many I know) would use their guns in a crime or to hurt someone.
Now they know that there are some people who just should not have guns. Incompetent, dangerous, immature, criminal. But there is no inconvenience, no restriction that these perfectly nice people are willing to go to see that these dangerous people can't get guns. "Why should I have to go through a check because some criminal somewhere wants a gun. I'm not a criminal."
Railfans are starting to sound like that with photography. If 9/11 didn't put the handwriting on the wall for you, 3/11 should have. If you want to protect our right to photograph, it's time to negotiate. If the MTA refuses to negotiate, I'd reconsider my position.
Guns hold bullets, which when projected into people often kill them. Whatever your position on gun control, a gun is an instrument that is used specifically and directly to kill.
Cameras cannot kill. Perhaps one could argue that a camera is capable of indirectly causing death, and that therefore it should be banned. I've never found such arguments convincing, but even if you do, surely the comparison is a bit of a stretch.
When I asked at 370 Jay about permits last week, the gentleman behind the counter was unaware of the proposed ban.
Do you think it's reasonable to require permits to open one's eyes while in the subway system? Whatever information can be gathered in one fashion can be gathered in the other.
Cameras are used to record information. So are notepads. So are brains. Do we ban notepads and brains on the subway? Notepads and brains can be used for many more devious activities than recording information as well.
And brains have been banned on the subways for years,
As for brains, that must be why I feel so out-of-place on the subway these days.
Do we agree?
I think photographers should certainly expect to be questioned, and I'd be thrilled if there were an optional permit system to short-circuit the questioning.
No, apparently we do not agree.
Photo permits will NOT provide security or prevent terrorism.
The most they will do is give authroities an idea of who may be taking pictures, and that those photographers know what rules and safety regulations apply to them.
We *are* providing input. reams and reams of it that they will find difficult to ignore. We *are* raising the conciousness of the bueraucrats, and of the general population of what is at stake and what the root issues are.
AND THE ROOT ISSUE IS NOT SECURITY: Security is the excuse that they are putting forward to the agrandizement of their own agenda.
Elias
While there are exceptions, such as the deceased relative you mentioned, by and large people who are opposed to all restrictions on gun ownership tend to be, how do you word this, eccentric?
We see it all the time right here. The best service plans are routinely bashed by a few who lose a one-seat ride or express service as a result.
I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make ... after all, driving is subject to a host of restrictions, as it should be.
I have no problem with outlawing automatic weapons (which have been illegal for civilian possession since at least 1934, despite what Chuck Schumer might try to imply), in just the same way I have no problem with making it illegal to own nerve gas or plutonium.
But if a law-abiding citizen, of age, sound mind and a clean record, wishes to own or carry a firearm, I adamantly oppose restrictions (particularly discretionary restrictions such as those applied in large cities like New York, in which it is predominantly only retired LEOs, the wealthy and the politically connected who are granted carry permits) on their right to do so. In large cities, I believe it's also quite legitimate to have gun safety class requirements and safety testing (in just the same way as new drivers are tested to see how well they can handle themselves on the road).
When you see one of your friends who believes there should be absolutely no restrictions on the right to bear arms, ask them if they think the average citizen should be allowed to walk around with a cylinder of nerve gas, or a briefcase nuke. Clearly the right to bear arms has limits.
Most of the current hullabaloo regards cosmetics - take a perfectly legal gun, add a pistol-style grip or a folding stock, and it becomes an assault weapon. Similarly, take a designated "assault" weapon, make a few cosmetic changes that don't affect the operation or action of the gun at all, and it's now perfectly legal.
The other major segment of the current "assault weapon" category are handguns that can hold more than 10 rounds without reloading. But a number of mass killers of the last 10 years or so (the LIRR shooter, the Columbine shooters, etc) simply reloaded over and over again before they either killed themselves, were apprehended by police, or a brave civilian took it upon themself to stop the carnage, so it matters little how many rounds they hold since they can simply reload. Besides, if we had an armed population, a crook wouldn't be able to get off half that many rounds before being stopped :)
The bottom line is, close quarters aren't the ideal place to go shooting - your advantage against combatants without firearms is reduced compared to what it is out in the open - oh, it's still there, but a lot less than it otherwise could be. That's why I have no particular fear of guns in airplane cabins - guns are simply not very effective weapons of mass destruction at close range, since you can be disarmed in a moment.
Can be, but aren't going to be. Recall that on 9/11 a handful of terrorists were able to take over four aircraft despite being way outnumbered, and, as best we know, armed only with box cutters or short-bladed knives, neither of which are particularly lethal weapons. Most people simply would not fight back even in a clear life-or-death situation, it's just our cultural conditioning.
And even if they managed to subdue every passenger on the plane, they still have that reinforced cockpit door to deal with.
And even if they managed to get through the cockpit door, they'd have to deal with the pilots, who are ready and waiting. And if there's a God, they'll have chosen to carry a firearm in the cockpit to quickly dispatch these bastards.
And even if they managed to subdue or kill everyone on board, then the USAF will shoot the plane down.
I think that's an example of cultural conditioning that's gone the way of the dodo...
But yes, you're right - in most cases we'd simply acquiesce to the demands of whoever's got the biggest weapon.
That ruse worked only once; in fact, three-quarters of once--when the passengers on the flight in Pennsylvania got wind of what happened to the other flights, they rushed the hijackers. They died, but saved others.
Similar issue with Colin Ferguson. Even though passengers thought they might be killed or wounded, they figured that making any move toward him would ensure their deaths, until he stopped to reload and several people saw their chance. If their was any cultural conditioning going on, it was that no one tried to kill him, then and there.
One of the flight attendants on AA 77 had called the dispatch center and reported that a passenger and another flight attendant had been stabbed/slashed, one was dead and the other dying. You'd have thought that the other pax would've caught on that they were dealing with savage killers, and that meekly complying with their demands might not be so wise a decision. Too late to do anything about that now, of course ...
Similar issue with Colin Ferguson. Even though passengers thought they might be killed or wounded, they figured that making any move toward him would ensure their deaths, until he stopped to reload and several people saw their chance. If their was any cultural conditioning going on, it was that no one tried to kill him, then and there.
A couple of years ago - after 9/11 - a passenger on a Southwest Airlines flight went wild and tried to storm the cockpit. He was a teenager or young adult with a history of psychiatric problems, not a terrorist. Any way, a group of passengers DID kill him.
Not in Pennsylvania. A co-worker owns an Uzi and a Thompson. He has a Federal license for each. They are for sport.
He goes to a machine gun shoot in Kentucky once each year, and he goes to a machine gun shoot in New Hampshire once each year. The major drawback is the expense of the ammo, because it goes out very fast in full automatic.
Instead of railing against the MTA, interested rail photographers should attempt to get together with MTA officials and try to negotiate some kind of "railfan photo pass" which would include at least as much information as a driver's license, with the photographer's picture. It's fair to expect some kind of vetting process, and expect to agree not to photograph certain specific things. Sure it would be an inconvenience, but it beats being prohibited from picture-taking altogether, or having the city blown up.
but now we feel the need to be able to do searches with no warrants and not even tell you about it. they are going too far. you do NOT need to give away your liberties in order to gain safety.
Trouble is, the MTA wants to impose a permit requirement, but is vague as to the procedures needed to get one. They could issue NJT-style permits, restricted to a specific time and place, which of course are of limited value to railfans, or demand proof of some commercial purpose before issuing them. It's also possible that permit seekers will encounter endless bureaucratic runarounds and/or high fees.
If the MTA would commit to being more reasonable, in the manner of the MBTA, things would be less worrisome.
If there were a real terrorist event, the MTA would not handle it as well as they did on 9/11/01. But instead of fixing its own communication problems, it is trying to cover them up and shift the responsibility to the public. We're shifting it back.
Can anyone think of anything else?
Whch brings up the question of whether it's better to ask for reasonable permit conditions now, when permits aren't required, or waiting until a permit requirement actually goes into effect. I really don't know what would be better.
Having permits, and trying to work with the TA for reasonable ways of getting one, would solve most of the problems on both sides. A policeman who saw some dudes photographing could ask for "your permit, please." This gives the cop a chance to look at the permit, see if it looks like you, and also assess your demeanor. All OK, you go on taking your pictures. DOn't have a permit, and (at least when the permits are a new thing) you get a bit closer questioning and, in most cases, an instruction not to photograph but to get a permit.
If this becomes well known, it will discourage a lot of genuine evil dudes from exposing themselves to the process.
The fact is, if you really think that a slap-on-the-wrist $25 fine for subway photography is going to send Osama bin Laden away shaking in his boots, I've got a bridge to sell you. Cameras today are so tiny that they can be easily concealed; those who have a need to be surreptitious will do so, leaving the rest of us stroking the salami. The system is huge, and it can't be patrolled 24/7 in all places; even if someone calls the cops, a person who has reason not to be caught will be long gone by the time they get there.
Besides, many thousands of pictures of the subway system, and many other critical infrastructure "soft targets" exist on web sites and in books and magazines. Perhaps the next step, if we really want to GET SERIOUS about security, will be to create a nice big Homeland Security bonfire and start burning those books.
That would merely confirm what I already believe to be true - I'm a hell of a lot more scared of what the government and all its power can do to terrorize citizens than I am of a couple thousand guys scattered to the four winds whose leaders live in caves.
Can I see pictures first? :)
But what does that have to do with taking pictures of items that are in plain view of public areas, items that are perfectly legal to look at and to memorize details about and to take notes on?
(Apologies to those who don't think prepositions are proper to end sentences with.)
And even if a terrorist did wish to take a picture rather than use some other form of information gathering, do you really think a $25 fine would be much of an impediment? These guys are perfectly happy to die for their "cause," but they'd be unwilling to leave their heirs with a $25 debt?!
What does that have to do with levying a fine of $25 on somebody caught photographing an R-68 for his hobbyist website?
Presumably if and when this ban is instituted, fines will become more common.
I don't think anybody's arguing that the police shouldn't have the right to question photographers, and certainly nobody's arguing that there shouldn't be a permit system that would short-circuit the questioning. But what has been proposed is a ban, with a penalty of a fine and/or imprisonment simply for taking pictures.
Tell you a short story. I do very little subway photography right now, though I look forward to getting back into it. Well, a few months ago I met my brother and erstwhile co-author in the City. To get into the City I parked at the Aquarium and took the subway from Stillwell. I stuck my camera through a hole in the fence to take some pictures of construction at the headhouse. In short order there was a large and unphotogenic hulk in front of my lens. I looked up and there's a beefy construction foreman asking me why I was photographing. I said I was from The Third Rail and was getting some shots for a follow-up on my Stillwell article. "Oh, yeah," he says, "I liked that article." So he withdraws and yells to the other guys "It's OK, he's from The Third Rail."
Well, my point is, that had a simple ending, particularly since these guys knew what the hell I was talking about. But I would like a permit which doesn't require me to make an explanation every single time I want to take a picture. A permit with my picture on it. Wouldn't you like that?
So who's to prevent an al-Qaeda operative from getting one of these permits? Do you really trust the gummint to weed out all the bad guys? And even if you think they could, would you like to have the means they use (interviewing your relatives and friends, perhaps lengthy interviews or interrogation, fingerprinting, criminal background checks - all at your expense, of course) applied to every innocent railfan in the city?
It's a big issue of responsibility - there isn't a god damned person in the world who wants to be blamed for giving a permit to an al-Qaeda operative. So if your name is Muhammad, good luck getting that damn permit, is all I can say. Similarly, there are terrorist watch lists and no-fly lists that nobody wants to claim responsibility for. Nobody wants to explain how names are selected to go on these lists (perhaps because illegal information was used to compile the lists, or maybe nobody has any idea why that name is there), and certainly nobody ever wants to remove a name from such a list for the above reason, so if you become one of those people who's repeatedly denied access to permits, to airplanes, questioned regularly or detained indefinitely, it's quite an arduous procedure to try and clear your name because nobody wants to clear it for you.
And suppose, god forbid, that somebody gets a permit, snaps a couple of pictures, then blows up a train? The gummint gets sued, that's what happens! It pins more responsibility on the government and grants more leverage to plaintiffs, at least in the civil courtroom when it comes to handing down damage awards to terror victims.
I'm pleasantly surprised that the construction foreman caught the reference.
If you do plan to get back into subway photography, now's the time. Within a few months, it may very well be illegal.
Depends, I never seen your mug! :P
Seriously, if the MTA is willing to issue such a permit that's similar to the MBTA permit aka for a 3 month period, I'd live with it. It's not my ideal, but passable. A total clampdown is not acceptable though.
Your pal,
Fred
The ban has not yet come up for a vote, and photographers have been already been fined. Those in the know have it thrown out by a judge.
Your pal,
Fred
Keep checking the New York Register. When the proposal is printed there, the 45 day period for public input begins.
When regulations become law, they are also printed in the Register. Until they are printed in the Register, they are not law and cannot be cited.
Elias
And since spy cameras have been invented, those conducting surveillance for Osama will have them, thereby avoiding questioning should a photography ban pass.
Not that I think it would be necessary for them to go through the trouble. You really don't need photographic surveillance to fly an airplane into a building or drop a backpack full of explosives on a train.
There is nothing that I could take a photograph of in the NYCS that could lead to the deaths of more people than just placing a bomb on a crowded train.
And police can question all they want...they shouldn't be able to stop you however.
A police officer may always approach an individual who is behaving suspiciously, and ask what he is about, and why he is loitering.
From those answers the officer will be able to determine if other "profiles" apply to this individual and his behaviors.
An officer may not "Profile" a person because he is of a "certain origin" or because he is "using a camera", but because of certain behaviors, because he is loitering, because he cannot give an accout for himself.
It pays to be vigilant, but it is counterproductive to be paranoid or to chase after windmills.
Elias
Exactly - this is the downfall of the "if it saves only one life it's worth it" argument. Even if some security measure makes the system 1% safer, could those resources have been used someplace else that would have made the system 10% safer? Or if not, why not use the money that would have gone toward harassing railfans, and buy every American a beer. Put it on Big Dubya's tab. Would probably help his poll numbers, if nothing else.
Example: Take the guys at the TSA currently getting their kicks feeling up pregnant women and stripsearching Congressmen, and put them to work examining shipping containers that arrive at our nation's ports - many of which receive virtually no checking whatsoever.
And you can hide a lot more explosives (nuclear, even) in a shipping container than you can up any Congressman's,(even Ted Kennedy) butt.
I ain't going to touch that one no matter how much money you pay me.
So do some arch neo-cons (yo).
My point is that there will be the usual negative reaction by conservative elements in the press to the fight against the photo ban simply because of who's involved, not what's being fought. Yeah, it's silly, but predictable.
So you were expecting Pulitzer-quality journalism from the (com)Post?
NY Post: All the news that's fit to print - and then some...
BMT-Lines.com Guestbook
Your pal,
Fred
The ONLY thing we have to fear is the POLITICIANS. Let's DO something about that. Let's roll. :(
Why is NJ Transit still providing bus service from Port Authority? This is duplicate effort and wasteful subsidization. Port Authority managed to get the bus service cut in order to increase ridership for the Airtrain. It's time they discontinue these slow moving bus routes to Rutherford, Clifton, Garfield and Paterson to get more ridership for the Secacus Junction. It's insanity when you consider how much money they spent on this hub and yet they continue to finance these bus routes.
To be totally honest, I'm not even aware of the benefits of the Secaucus hub and tend to travel to Penn Station for service to the Coastline. It's time NJ transit show the time savings from taking rail while while getting passengers off those bus routes and over to rail.
Keep the bus service as is. If people want to switch to the 2 seat ride rail service, so be it.
I don't necessarily disagree because cell phones in a subway car are annoying but the next thing you know it will be illegal to breathe on the subway.
http://www.straphangers.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=006197
"Res 0070-2004 MTA, Rules Portable Telephones
Description: Resolution calling upon the Metropolitan Transportation Authority to promulgate rules governing the use of portable telephones on the New York City mass transit system.
Resolution 0070-2004 History
Res. No. 70
By Council Members Reed, Lopez, Perkins, Brewer, Oddo, Koppell and James
..Title
Resolution calling upon the Metropolitan Transportation Authority to promulgate rules governing the use of portable telephones on the New York City mass transit system.
..Body
Whereas, Public transportation in New York City provides transportation to individuals from all parts of the world; and
Whereas, The passengers on the New York City buses and subways are confined in close quarters for relatively short periods of time; and
Whereas, Smoking and playing of portable radios are examples of conduct that is otherwise legal, but that is illegal during the short periods of time that a passenger uses the bus or subway; and
Whereas, These rules enhance the ride and the comfort of all passengers in a manner that is comparable to other quality of life rules; and
Whereas, The comfort of all passengers requires that the Metropolitan Transportation Authority enact and enforce rules that insure that passengers will not act in such a way as to cause annoyance, alarm or inconvenience to another reasonable person; and
Whereas, A close attention to the quality of life in our mass transit system removes stress and increases the satisfaction of the users of the system; and
Whereas, A satisfied user returns to the system and in other ways gains a favorable impression of New York City; and
Whereas, Cellular phones are often used without regard for others, and in a manner that can be obnoxious or even rude; and
Whereas, Individuals using these phones, raise their voices and in other ways intrude on the comfort of others; and
Whereas, The Metropolitan Transit Authority has rules against sound production devices and engaging in nontransit activities while in subway stations or riding on buses and subways; and
Whereas, The widespread use of portable phones is a relatively new practice; and
Whereas, These devices are susceptible to abuse and need to be regulated in a manner comparable to that applied by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority to radios; now, therefore, be it
Resolved, That the Council of the City of New York calls upon the Metropolitan Transportation Authority to promulgate rules governing the use of portable telephones on the New York City mass transit system. "
At this point all we have is a recommendation from the City Council to the MTA.
What the MTA will do is anyones guess.
-Chris
OH!!!! WAIT A MINUTE!!!!
WHy don't we all go back to living in caves like our ancestors and try to make fire with sticks and flint. Oh crap, the MTA banned those too...
Your daily dose of sarcasm, provided by edk256.
0. A photo permit system would be offered, but the fees would be so exorbitant, or the permits to clunky to get and use, that very few people would actually apply, so before long the permit system would be terminated for "lack of interest."
1. Closing down subway fan and photo sites. Printed material containing subway information may be removed from general circulation in libraries or placed on designated "watch lists" with records kept of who requests such material for potential law enforcement inquiry.
2. Covering any railfan or other front or back windows to prevent people from looking out.
3. Vastly increased cases of police harassment of the riding public, for loitering (e.g. waiting on the platform for a train), "suspicious behavior" such as looking around, taking photographs or just looking intently at something or twiddling your thumbs while waiting for your train, or the heinous crimes of Riding While Black and Riding While Being A Young Adult Male Of Middle Eastern Descent.
4. "Random" bag/coat/passenger searches, which increase in regularity as time goes on. I put "random" in quotes because we all know it'll be anything but. Focus on minorities, those of Middle Eastern descent, business travelers with briefcases, tourists with luggage, students with backpacks, and pregnant women.
5. Increasingly regular "police investigations" and "service diversions" with no forewarning given, and no explanation given either during the event or after the fact. Nobody ever says what was done or not done, what was found or not found, and nobody asks why that particular set of measures were taken.
6. Subject to financial constraints and personnel availability, the requirement to present ID (eg. driver's license) to enter a subway station or train, and the installation of airport-style security barriers at major and transfer stations, with metal detectors, explosives detectors, and bomb-sniffing dogs; whether it is an inconvenience for passengers, promotes overcrowding or adds significant amounts of time to an already lengthy commute will not be taken into account. Detainments of passengers will be performed on a regular basis to allow for more thorough screening and online background checks. These checks may or may not involve the confiscation, with or without due process or legal recourse, of contraband (pocket knives, cameras, and the like). If you commute to work, you will have to deal with this every day.
Now repeat after me, freedom is slavery...
Bodily functions?
The line runs in a subway underneath Main Street for most of its route, making it closer to true rapid transit than a streetcar.
About half of the underground stations are twin tubes, reminiscent of London Underground stations, and all looked very clean and in good shape.
The most curious thing about the system is that it actually runs above ground in the downtown area, and underground everywhere else. This is backwards from the conventional practice of putting transit underground downtown and above ground in less-dense areas further out. Anyway, where the train runs above ground it has a dedicated ROW, with Main Street being closed to all other traffic in that part of town. The only exceptions are NFTA-Niagra transit buses and oddly, postal vehicles. Go figure.
I'm also pleased to report that a lot of the trains are painted in a new red-and-blue-on-white paint scheme, replacing the dowdy-looking Thanksgiving Day paint scheme of brown, orange, and yellow.
The trains weren't very crowded, even at rush hour. I'm not surprised. A single line that doesn't go very far out isn't going to be that useful unless it's accompanied by the kind of urban development that will bring people back into town, and provide them places to go in town, like grocery stores, for example.
Take a look at the above ground parts of the line: The downtown the trains cruise through is clean, attractive, and deserted. It seems not so much a city as the incredibly well-preserved ruins of a city. Underneath the buatiful architecture of Buffalo's old sky scrapers is a lot of beautiful landscaping, with few people to enjoy it all. I know Buffalo was hit hard by the collapse of its industrial base, but it looks like the kind of urban planning required to bring its remaining people into downtown hasn't been done. There are some stores, but I didn't see much in the way of residences downtown.
Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed railfanning on Buffalo's light rail line. But the line deserves to have the most made of it. For that to happen, more urbanist development needs to take place downtown. Also, more lines would have to be built to make the system useful for navigating the whole metro area. I realize Buffalo has a ton of other problems to deal with, and money may not be there for good urban development projects and transit expansion. Too bad.
Mark
I'm glad Cincinnati decided to pass on a $900,000 tunnel, but its new light rail, if it ever happens, will have the same trouble. No residential or local retail support and no population diversity to support growth.
If they ever expand the system I would be very surprised if they continued in the current pattern. I'd suspect new lines would be above ground to save money.
Mark
Mark
I left Buffalo in '79 after graduating from UB, went back to the city once and rode the thing when it was new, and have only been back one other time on business. Buffalo never changes, it only gets more run-down.
Mark
The downtown fare-free zone had (and has) a lot of possibilities, but other than San Jose and Sacramento, I don't know of any North American transit malls that have been at all successful. One thing that might have hurt downtown businesses in Buffalo was the way in which Main Street was torn up for so long while the line was being built--it looked like pictures of the construction of the New York subway through Times (Longacre) Square and elsewhere, which killed a lot of businesses in Manhattan.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
(280 miles from Buffalo)
Good access to downtown for students would be good for both the school and Buffalo, I'd think. There's not much to do around the north campus. If Buffalo wants people to come downtown and enjoy nightlife, students are a good market to cater to.
Mark
Buffalo obviously has what these and other cities don't have, and a huge huge HUGE prerequsite to vibrant development. Infrastructure. Everyone else is BEGGING for an LRT and they have it! So the first block is there. Now all you need is cultural change and leadership.
Jeff "why can i find a job that travels" W
Police cars are allowed on the transit mall, too.
Mark
That's what is needed but who in their right mind is going to get the ball rolling? The lightrail commuter drove off to the burbs.
In order for these new retail store to open along the lightrail, the city must think about mixed use like in NewPort Center.
Mark
Mark
Notice that someone circled (RCA) on the top sign and wrote, "HUH?"
Notice also that (presumably) the same person circled RCA in the bottom sign and wrote, "What does this mean?"
Later, two different people, upon reading the first person's ignorant question, wrote the answer, "Restricted Clearance Area," nearby; one above the question, one below it.
#3 West End Jeff
There's the problem. We speak Spanish now, and korean,russian,etc.
Sort of like our crosswalk signals, it was too much to ask that people learn "Walk/Don't Walk".
#3 West End Jeff
Da Hui
Maybe they thought they were on Candid Camera. >_>
Americans, from the president on down, are acronym crazy. His WMD is one example.
People should learn to use the language properly, and I mean born and bred English speaking Americans. Why must the penchant for speed and cutting corners elevate esoteric shortcuts above clear, easy to understand sentences.
Better yet maybe the sign should have defined each word. "Clearance - (1) an intervening space" rather than "Clearance - (2) a sale to get rid of surplus merchandise."
Click on the picture to view the full size version. (905K)
-Chris
I meant improper.
-Chris
And on the monday after the 6th Ave GO ended but before they fixed Roosevelt that reading was completely correct.
The signs are programmed so that when you enter a sign code, it programs both the route letter and destination as well as route information. Each of these elements (Route letter, maximum of 2 destination messages and 2 route information messages) cannont be programmed separately. For example, entering a single code, the signs for "A/FAR ROCKAWAY/8 AV EXPRESS/FULTON ST EXPRESS/via JFK AIRPORT" are displayed. Its a primitive method of the sidesign entry on the R142/143 - you can only use the routes the computer is programmed for. An R to Far Rockaway via 6 Ave Local/Fulton St Express can not be programmed, because the computer doesn't contain that information, just like "L/to 207 STREET" doesn't exist in the R143s computer.
However, the Luminator side signs are programmed to allow every station in the system to be displayed on the sidesigns. Because the sidesigns only use one code for entry, a route can not be displayed (in theory every station could be programmed for every route, but this would be a ridiculous waste of memory).
Sat Jun 19 2004 Charity Fan Trips - IRT SMEE/Redbird Cars
...
The trip will leave the Times Square station of the #7 at 10:30 AM
Join the supporting of the March Of Dimes. Fares are $40 per trip for adults and $20 per trip for children under 13. ...
Is that a suggested donation (i.e. any donation would be accepted) or something more rigid (i.e. no $40, no ride)?
I am interested in going, but money is tight at the moment.
Your pal,
Fred
But it will not cost you more than one swipe to get onto the platforms at photograph the train as it goes by.
Elias
You only have to download one program into your computer Quicktime 6.0 and you won't again have to worry about downloading 1 MB files, the videos will playback automatically in the same manner the photo albums are played back.
The first subway video will be shown tomorrow, and it won't cost me a $25 fine to shoot it. Now, get ready for 6/19. Downlaod Quicktime 6.0 in advance and watch.
Why am I not surprised?
-Chris
Chuck Greene
Why do you have a camera phone? Camera phones are cute and all, well, WERE, when they came out, but now it's like a crayon, it's a kids' tool. Get a real camera and take real pictures, or get a real videocamera and take real video. It's better in the long run, trust me, I know people who have these things (even though I currently don't own either of those)...
I have a little mini-camera with a voice recorder, but I hardly use it because it's of low-quality, besides, I didn't buy it, it was a gift from a friend.
BTW, do you know any good chinese restaurants near Newkirk Avenue where your namesake is?
thank you
As for getting a digital camera, I am waiting for the next Pocket PC from Sprint. Currently the Hitachi G1000 uses Pocket PC 2002 as the platform but the card slot is not SDIO compatiable so I don't think I can use Multimedia memory cards and I'd rather have the latest PDA. Of course once I get the Pocker PC, I can get a digital camera with that and the camera will be up-to-date too.
But it looks like next year, there will be camera phones coming out with 1MP to 2MP built-in. Still I would peruse a PDA with an 8MP camera instead.
Anyway, you are right, he should get a regular camera, but I saw the videos and they arent that bad.
-Chris
The downstairs ticket booths are already closed and signs direct passengers upstairs for booth service. The ticket machines and information booth are still at track level. The elevator on Hanson Pl. remains in use.
In related news, the Bank of New York has started moving workers into the office building above. No retail tenants have opened up in the mall yet, though.
Today's Venus transit seen by NASA's Sun-observing TRACE spacecraft. Credit: NASA
Underground, 11 min., 2:00 P.M.
UNDERGROUND is a political thriller set in the subway of an anonymous city. A woman riding the subway is being followed. What lies ahead is not what you expect and will leave you thinking. The shocking conclusion challenges the audience to face themselves, their prejudices and preconceived notions based on gender race and fear. UNDERGROUND ...what are you afraid of?
www.undergroundshortfilm.com
Ferry Tales, 39 min., 4:00 P.M.
For hundreds of commuters it is just a routine trip form the quiet of Staten Island to the frenzy of Manhattan. But not for all. Every morning a fascinating group of women spends those 30 minutes gathered around the mirrors in the Powder Room of the Staten Island Ferry. As they put on their make-up they transform themselves form housewives to business women. Juggling multiple worlds these women have hilarious and serious insights beyond race and class stereotypes.
www.ferrytales.net
I guess someone just thought, "oh, to heck with changing the signs," and left it like this.
(Spotted in the 10th car of a southbound B train between 42nd Street and 34th Street)
Michael
Washington, DC
Similarly, the bottom rollsign would say Southern Terminal at the start if you don't roll it anywhere.
til next time
North Dakota is the only state in the union that does NOT have any voter registration at all.
Today for the first time, however, identification is required. A driver's license will suffice. (I have been voting here for 20 years, and they all know me, they looke at me, they looked at my ID, and let me vote, never even reading that my ID is in a different name than what I used to vote with. They saw what they thought they saw.) [My maiden name is "Donald" which is what is says on my license, but nobody knows that!]
In any event is was also the roll out of the new electonic voting machine. (North Dakota Style!) We used the same paper ballots and No. 2 pencils that we have always used, but then when you put the ballot into the machine (You could not put it in wrong: it would be read correctly either side up and either end into the machine). The machine would read the ballot, and if you made any mistakes (In the primary you cannot cross party lions for example) it would give you the option of getting a fresh ballot, or accepting it the way you wrote it.
And that was that! (Other than the fact that I had to bring the ambulance to the Abbey, because the ambulance garage is also the voting place.)
Freedom! It is worth fighting for, it is worth voting for!
Elias
That's the machines I used in the 2000 election. That by far is my favorite, since I know my ballot is accepted and it reminds me of standardized test in school.
Now the county I'm in used touch screens, refuses to turn the printers on, and issues some smart card(with the chip like a credit card) in there. Not to big on it as there's no verification. The scantron ballots least has that paper trail.
Plus, when I voted in the primary a few months ago, I voted for a guy who dropped out before I voted for him. Wasting a vote isn't as bad as they make it out to be. :)
Saudi Arabia is just a lost cause. That's why I believe it is a fundamental national imperative to reduce or eliminate our dependence on imported fossil fuels - if we can reduce our consumption to our domestic production (possibly buttressed by drilling in the ANWR), plus the oil we can get from friendly, democratic, countries such as Norway and Mexico, plus perhaps oil from ocean drilling (currently impractical in many cases but with enough work, I think could be rendered competitive), and increase our use of domestically available fuels - natural gas, nuclear fission, possibly nuclear fusion, some coal, hydroelectric, solar, wind, possibly geothermal in some cases - then we can tell the Saudis to drink their damn oil, and we would be more free to engage in a foreign policy on *our* terms, where we deal with the countries *we* want to deal with, rather than making alliances of convenience or necessity. There's no reason a country this big, blessed with so many natural resources, should be forced to deal with hostile foreign powers on their terms and be dependent on their charity. That way we can live as much as we can in a world of the civilized, where governments are elected and fundamental freedoms and the rule of law are respected. Everyone else can either reform themselves to conform to those precepts, or they're on their own. If we really want to isolate the "evil-doers" and the totalitarian dictators, it's time we "get serious."
It may happen. Iran's not a hopeless case, at least not yet.
Saudi Arabia is just a lost cause.
Totally. A country that had the potential to accomplish just about anything is a loathesome disaster.
That's why I believe it is a fundamental national imperative to reduce or eliminate our dependence on imported fossil fuels
Unfortunately, the love affar with the automobile will be a hard thing to change.
No need to get rid of them - just gradual change.
Add a 50 cents tax to gasoline starting in January, and every 6 months thereafter tack on another 0.50. Gas will be on par with European prices by the end of the decade. The tax goes into a fund to help us deal with the sh*t stirred up by our necessity to involve ourselves in Middle East politics - you know, the Iraq war, our assistance to Saudi Arabia, and the like.
Then, income tax incentives to buy electric, natural gas or hybrid vehicles, and sin taxes on low mpg gas users - the lower the mpg, the more you pay.
Tax incentives to switch from oil to natural gas heat, and to produce your own power at home (solar panels, etc) to reduce your draw off the grid.
Convert public vehicles as expeditious over to natural gas or electric (battery or cat line) - buses are already starting to do so. Again, tax revenues go to the same fund.
Ahh, here's the best part: High speed rail! Forget Amtrak and its 19th century trackage - a TGV-like line running 200+ mph from NYC to Chicago, another from Boston to Florida, to be followed by more lines. These lines make limited stops, and are supplemented by more conventional lines running at Acela-like speeds of 100-150 mph, and then local transit and commuter lines handle the local yokel stuff. Europe and Asia already run modern rail lines - we should do the same. Reduce airline subsidies and force air passengers to pay these subsidies in the form of add-on ticket fees. Increase rail subsidies. Bring it to the point that the only need for air transit is for international flights (unless someone wants to build that tunnel across the Atlantic...), and cross-continental flights (you pay a sin tax for the increased speed, since by then high-speed rail will be available, though it would still take all day to get across the country)
Build new non-fossil-fuel-fired power plants - natural gas burners, nuclear, hydroelectric, and perhaps solar and wind farms (though these are likely to be more practical for individual buildings or homes). Coal could also be used, although the environmental implications need to be assessed.
Sure, it's expensive, but how many trillions of dollars have we spent getting involved in issues we have no business involving ourselves in, and propping up totalitarians and kleptocrats and puppet states, and how many wars and battles have we gotten ourselves into over oil?
Then, once we're self sufficient:
Nationwide high speed rail: $trillions
Nationwide gas tax: $8.00
Telling the Saudis they can go drink their oil for all we care: Priceless.
Tax incentives to switch from oil to natural gas heat, and to produce your own power at home (solar panels, etc) to reduce your draw off the grid.
I like most of what you have said, EXCEPT for the damn tax incentives.
There should be no incentives of any sort in the tax laws. Tax what you must to raise the money that you need.
But these damn incentives only provide loop holes for chisslers, cheating on their taxes and faking the repairs or upgrades.
If something needs to be cleaner, just pass a law!
"All vehicles shall get 50 mpg by January 1 2006, or will not be sold"
Heck! It worked with toilet tanks. You can no longer buy an inefficient toilet. (Or one that works well either). Kinda leaves a black market in illeagally imported Canadian toilets, but what the heck, not everybody can use Depends.
Yes, I have proposed High Speed rail networks. Heck the ROWs are already in place, just build along the existing interstate highways!
Just do it. Cheaping out with existing RR ROWs doesn't cut it.
And YES: Remove all subsidies from air travel!
Elias
I believe in a combination of the carrot and stick approach. For example, if I go to the immense expense and trouble to install solar panels on my roof, I think it's only fair that I get a break in my property taxes. The alternative is to simply raise the taxes of everybody, and offer to lower it to the original level if they install solar panels - I can tell you for sure that ain't gonna fly - not that huge gas taxes will be popular (though I think immediately after 9/11 was a golden opportunity to pass such a tax measure as a "patriotic" measure for "national security" to prevent those terrorist scumbags from financing bin Laden with our gas money)
So the stick is sort of relative, and the carrot has to be extended from time to time.
C'mon - lower taxes aren't always bad... do it for ol' Ronnie Reagan - the Gipper 'd be proud of ya :)
Then there some cases where the stick applies - HUGE gasoline surcharges, for example.
>>Heck! It worked with toilet tanks. You can no longer buy an inefficient toilet. <<
Tell me about it... I don't know how much more efficent it is if it only uses 1/3 the gallons per flush, but I have to flush 3 times to get it all down. I know - Saddam Hussein wanted to use my colon for bioweapons research :)
>>"All vehicles shall get 50 mpg by January 1 2006, or will not be sold" <<
The trouble with that is that more than anything it will convince people to keep their older cars, which certainly by then will be the SUVs so popular now, so this law would be counterproductive. I tend to prefer market-based reforms - sure you can drive a land boat, but you gotta front the $$$$$. No, you don't *have* to surrender your car to the gummint, but we'd appreciate a nice big chunk of $$$$$ to let you keep it. No, you don't *have* to make all your cars 50+ mpg, but it'll cost ya...
C'mon, Ronnie will be proud :)
>>And YES: Remove all subsidies from air travel! <<
Of course that will result in essentially the death of the airline industry (though it will continue to exist as a fraction of what it once was) - but let's take those pilots up to Branford for some arnine handle time, and see how long it takes them to go BIE :)
WRONG!
You Increased the value of your home, so your property taxes go UP!
Elias
Hence the need for a tax break... you increase the resale value of your home, but your taxes stay the same (or even decrease).
ROFLMAO
There was a fellow in Merrick, had a nice enough house, but in all the 20 years that I lived there, he never finished the roof on the house.
Nope: The house is still under construction, you cannot assess it yet.
Not sure what he did about snow storms or hurricanes, but, nope, the roof was never finished.
Elias
Unfortunately, the love affar with the automobile will be a hard thing to change. *
I was reading something interesting. and unless I miscomprehended it, if we got rid of the SUV mpg loophole, the reduction in consumption in this country would equal the amount we import from the manic-east daily currently.
You did miscomprehend. The SUV mpg loophole, if closed, would reduce the amount of imported oil by about 2 to 3 percent - no more. What single change would make the biggest difference? End the use of oil and natural-gas fired power plants, replacing them with nuclear... the exact percentage escapes me, but it's around 7 or 8. Total dependence, utilizing all significant variables short of gross consumption of the end commodity (in other words, still using the same amount of electricity, still driving the same number of miles, etc.) could be reduced by about 18 per cent without a perceptible change in our lifestyle.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What really concerns me is that if we burn all of our oil as a fuel, then other demands for hydrocarbons will go unmet.
Frankly I can live without an automobile that uses gasoline,
but I can no longer live as I am accustomed to without PLASTICS!
Everythijng from computers to drugs to fibers all depend on hydrocarbons.
Elias
That sounds like a line from "The Graduate", when they remake it (inevitable in Hollywood).
It's only the complex hydrocarbons (petroleum products - gasoline, diesel, aviation fuel, bunker Charlie, etc) for which we're so dependent on the Middle East. That also includes many plastics, vasoline and a few other petroleum products, though the need for petroleum products could probably be brought down to levels that can be met by domestic production.
"What upset me most was when (President) George W. Bush said that any nation that feeds, harbors or aids terrorists is basically our enemy," explains Broussard, who last year celebrated Zeitgeist's 15th anniversary. "I believe it's very hypocritical for the United States to be using this label of terrorists when it's really what we've been doing as foreign policy for the last three decades.
"There's a total lack of recognition that we're the ones who trained Osama bin Laden, we trained (Iraq's) Saddam Hussein. We trained (Panama's) Manuel Noriega. It's always 'the enemy of our enemy is our friend,' and we forget that we fed, harbored and trained these terrorists."
Anyway, it is good that your voting machines use voter verifyable paper instead of having to trust unreliable and insecure software code.
Yup, that way if we need a recount, you can just run them through the machine again.
I neglected to mention that for the first time, they required a street address and not a post office box. The deal here as too many people were voting in the wrong districts. They used to live on a farm way down there, but they moved to town. But they would still go back to the old place to vote. No surprize there, that *is* where their land is, their farm, and their livelyhood, but they themselves had long since moved to the big city perhaps even in the next county.
Now they will have to vote where they live, rather than where they farm or whatever.
Elias
Please don't whisper a word of that to anyone in California. We have enough problems, as it is.
-Chris
The photo I posted was taken on Friday.
-Broadway Buffer
I love choice.
D to Brighton Beach!!
You know, someday you're gonna get in a lot of trouble for changing rollsigns. I don't know if you're joking or not, but if you're not, I suggest you cut it. Thats very inconsiderate to other people who don't know the lines and where the trains go.
-Broadway Buffer
D via West End!!!
D via Brighton Forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wayne
I seem to recall a proposition not too long ago (past couple of years, perhaps)... I wasn't sure if this was an LIRR thing, or perhaps a town wanted to do this.
Anyone remember this, or am I imagining it?
My own proposal was a dynamic carpooling network -- prospective drivers and prosepctive passengers dial in and are connected by computer based on time and proximity for each trip. Parking spaces would be allocated to drivers who were willing to bring people to and from the train -- they would also collect a fee from the passengers.
I think something of the sort could be beneficial for communities (and there are plenty of Long Island towns dense enough to make it work - Islip, for example) in which some commuters don't have cars, and the bus routes aren't exactly the greatest. It would also ease up the parking lot congestion, as well.
"This is a Manhattan-bound 4 train. The next stop is...Rockaway Ave."
New Jersey Transit ought to be censored for five things:
1) Photography-banning and excessive enforcement of such ban at times;
2) Uncomfortable seating on its buses;
3) Aesthetically bland and uninteresting rolling stock;
4) Not doing more to keep NJ's transportation system from going bankrupt.
5) Not doing enough to keep on-board restrooms free from dirt and stink.
New Jersey Transit ought to be praised for six things:
1) Making and extending reduced-fare rights for people with disabilities and senior citizens;
2) Providing paratransit services for such people and surveying people who use such transportation;
3) Aesthetic improvement of railroad stations;
4) Putting larger windows in new rolling stock;
5) Creating Midtown DIRECT service;
6) Creating new and scenic rail excursions (such as that of the Riverline, or Boondoggle).
Any comments?
Not doing enough planning to improve transit service in South Jersey[The RiverLINE is clearly not enough. We need MORE bus service down here. More and better feeder bus service to both PATCO and the RiverLINE, a cross-county bus run on Rt. 73, and more bus service out of fast-growing Gloucester County, particularly in the Rt. 55 corridor.]
My grade for the system: B-.
New Jersey Transit ought to be censored for five things:
1) Photography-banning and excessive enforcement of such ban at times;
2) Uncomfortable seating on its buses;
3) Aesthetically bland and uninteresting rolling stock;
4) Not doing more to keep NJ's transportation system from going bankrupt.
5) Not doing enough to keep on-board restrooms free from dirt and stink.
6)Not doing enough planning to improve transit service in South Jersey. (The RiverLINE is clearly not enough. We need MORE bus service down here. More and better feeder bus service to both PATCO and the RiverLINE, a cross-county bus run on Rt. 73, and more bus service out of fast-growing Gloucester County, particularly in the Rt. 55 corridor.)
New Jersey Transit ought to be praised for six things:
1) Making and extending reduced-fare rights for people with disabilities and senior citizens;
2) Providing paratransit services for such people and surveying people who use such transportation;
3) Aesthetic improvement of railroad stations;
4) Putting larger windows in new rolling stock;
5) Creating Midtown DIRECT service;
6) Creating new and scenic rail excursions (such as that of the Riverline, or Boondoggle).
Let me add a couple of more.
They should be praised for their actions in deploying billion dollar lightrails in underdeveloped communities
They should be praised for the incredible amount of bus service they provide to the people of Hoboken heading for 42nd street.
They should be praised for their low cost rail fees compared to Amtrack.
I don't think many people in states that have no rail service realize what they are missing.
Years ago my father used to load us up in the station wagon and we would speed the better half the the day going to the Jersey Shore. Since my father was a slow driver, it would take us 4 or 5 hours to get to SeaSide Heights. This was back in the late 70's and I would regret every minute of this horrible ride. I actually preferred the times when we would all take the train to Coney Island.
About a month ago, I used NJ Transit for the first time to the Shore-line. Unbelievable. I could not believe we arrived at the shore so fast and with my bicycle, could reach any of the beaches in minutes. The train was barely full with plenty of room for more passengers! It's unbelivable that people would rather spend four or five hours driving on a hot freeway instead of a relaxing train.
But they do. Which is unfortunately why we have such a generally poor rail system.
Let me add some more.
NJ Transit ought to be censored for poor weekend bus service in urban communities.
NJ Transit ought to be censored for little or no bus service to luxury malls (Woodbridge, Willowbrook)
NJ Transit ought to be censored for the 1970's interrior on their rail lines in comparison with SEPTA
i wonder how they ended up at Broad Street....
I've seen many misguided souls waiting for the downtown M at Chambers and Fulton during the middle of the day, signs notwithstanding. It can take some people a good four or five J trains passing by before they get the idea.
There seems to be nothing to stop anyone from going to the downtown Broad Street platform when there's no continuing service. If you try to walk down to the outbound 179th Street platform, which is discharge-only, an employee will be very quick to stop you. Of course, that's a full terminal, so there always are employees around-and large signs telling you no trains are on that side.
On weekends, this problem doesn't exist since all service ends at Chambers, a place where easy connections can be made to 4 and 5 trains headed to Brooklyn- at least for people who are willing to read signs or listen to instructions.
Since the latest version of Le Map shows this service as a dotted line, maybe the message will emerge that if you head to Broad Street in the middle of the day, you'll just have to turn around.
This brings up an interesting point. The J and M are probably the least used "tourist" lines in the system. Forgetting the Franklin Shuttle as a "real" line, the G probably IS the least used line by tourists, but I'm sure the J and M are probably 2nd and 3rd. The L probably the next after that.
And the 2/3 connects Times Square and Penn Station to lower Manhattan, not to mention tourist attractions outside Manhattan, like the Brooklyn Museum and the Bronx Zoo.
The V is a 6th Ave local. The V (weekdays of course) gets used almost as much as the F would by tourists. (The F of course a little bit more). There are many tourist destinations along the 6th Ave line in Manhattan, certainly more than the L passes through. By 2nd Ave, most of the tourists would probably have left even if they were on the F, so the fact that it ends at 2nd Ave instead of going through makes little difference.
At the very least I'd say more take the L than the 2/3.
I also severely doubt that. The 2/3 runs the length of Manhattan stopping at many tourist destinations. Yes, probably less "tourist" than the 1, but certainly more "tourist" than the L. The only thing the L does is connect the east and the west, the same thing most tourists probably do in the 42nd Street area. In addition, most tourists are here to "see" the city, not ride the subway, so much of the "crosstown" stuff, is probably done by walking, again especially in the midtown area.
And my point about the V was that if a route is not shown on the map the tourist is holding in his/her hand, he/she will probably not take it. I have seen people pass up Vs to go from 14th to 42nd.
Also, in the case of many of these other lines, you have the number of tourists distributed among the different routes somewhat equally. Ie: an estimate on the number of pepople travelling between Rockefeller Center and W4th should be divided by 4. Taking into account the routes that don't run weekends, and the V statisically would have to be the least-used 6th ave tourist line.
The L doesn't share and is supposed to be 24/7, so 100% of the tourists on the 14st subway are using the L.
Whatever, when I started this argument I was biased toward the L since I had recently seen a large gaggle of tourists going from 8th to Union Square (they probably transferred from an A/C). I really don't know at this point...
Here's the stats:
Bedford Ave: (81st in the system with 4,617,671 fares paid)
First Ave: (74th with 4,843,735 fares)
Third Ave: (not even close at 274th in the system with 1,360,879)
Other high Brooklyn stations on the L:
Myrtle-Wyckoff: (89th with 4,338,566 fares)
Lorimer-Metro: (129th with 3,036,305 fares)
Rockaway Parkway: (117th with 3,213,674)
So only 8th, 6th, and Union Square beat Bedford Ave by a landslide (with 1st of course by just a fraction.
I'm a railfan and therefore not your typical tourist.
That's the key right there. For me (and you) it would be one of the first things to do. But for your average tourist....
The most touristy line in my opinion is the Broadway corridor between 57th and Whitehall. Many of the city's main attractions are served by it: Rock Center, Times Square, the Herald Square shopping district, the Village, Chinatown, 'Ground Zero' (which has sadly more of a tourist attraction than what used to occupy it), the Financial District and the ferries. Musicians and other skells are keenly aware how many tourists ride this line- and how much more receptive tourists are to them than everyday commuters.
All the other lines connecting Midtown and downtown are obviously very popular with tourists. Surprisingly, the A above 59th seems to have a high concentration as well. It must be the Cloisters.
And every year for two weeks around Labor Day, the 7 is flooded with tennis fans, who you'd have to consider tourists. Side benefits of the Open to regular 7 train riders are an increased police presence and clear express/local announcements.
Of course, when the Open is over and the tennis buffs leave, everything goes back to normal and regular riders are left with few cops and fewer announcements.
Agreed.
The 1/9 south of Times Square also seems to get a lot of tourists.
They announce local or express trains?
Some parts of the LES are getting trendy.
When a friend of mine from Chicago visited New York two years ago, the one part of the city she really wanted to visit was the Lower East Side. (We took the F, but we were coming from CPW, not Wall Street.)
And, again, the J/M/Z has good transfers to the other lines in the area.
Ironically, they had just come from ground zero, not realizing that the A train stops right there on Church St.
Obviously, the R/W serves more tourist destinations than the J/M/Z. But it stops two blocks west of the Stock Exchange and has one stop at the very west edge of Chinatown. The J/M/Z stops directly underneath the Stock Exchange and has three stops in three different parts of Chinatown. Why should a tourist care that the R/W also serves Times Square if he wants to get to Essex Street from the Stock Exchange?
Obviously, the R/W serves more tourist destinations than the J/M/Z.
You just answered your own question.
OTOH, when I was a tourist on my first visit to NYC, I exactly did that to get from Wall St. to Little Italy. What I saw was the dirtiest tagged train I ever saw during that visit and noticed that my parents and I were the only ones getting off at Bowery but quite a few people lived in that station. We moved very quickly to go up the stairs and had a nice meal at Grotta Azura.:-)
After I moved to NYC, I realised that that train was not really the dirtiest tagged train around.
Times have changed...
I'm not a typical tourist but ridding the line from Wyckoff to Chambers is the one of the most interesting and enjoyable thing I have done in New York next time on in town I plan on ridding all the way out to Jamaica if I have time.
Mmmmmm.....
The look on their faces was priceless!
Lionel stole MTH's designs.
The Baltimore Sun does not print jokes in the financal section.
Mike Wolfe was surprised at the verdict as MTH's damage claim was only $33M.
The suit was filed in Federal Court, and a Japanese Company was also involved.
Could MTH become the owner of Lionel?
I guess we have to wait and see.
WTF has happened to the simple act of cleaning windows? Not only are they marred with a decade's worth of scratchitti, now it seems that every car has that damned milky substance grafitti. Pitkin's R44's are by far the worst of the bunch, with hardly a side window not blotted out. I rode R46 #5600 today, and it's condition almost gave me the feeling of being in a time warp. Every window was "milked up", there was traditional grafitti on the interior and 2 doors were inoperable. What happened to zero tolerance? Is there a sponge shortage? Did cleaning windows get removed from the current TWU contract? Are the yards having a contest as to who can refrain from cleaning windows the longest before someone complains? Trains in the 1980's, covered with traditional grafitti, were actually cleaner than today's stock. Ugh!
[rant mode: OFF]
Today I noticed an R44 odd set, containing car #5403, coupled to 5317/18/20. Is this the only odball R44 set? I never knew there was even one.
Pitkin Yard: Where we put the "P" in philth.
Bill "Newkirk"
If it is acid, replace the really bad windows. Leaving them as-is is not an option.
You don't see them much, but they literally put holes in the window. Apply enough, and you've got a large hole in the middle of it. Most vandals just mindlessly throw it on, although I've occasionally seen writing done in it.
And to 4traintowoodlawn: Vandal shield is slightly effective against the acid (although one could really screw up the R142/3 windows with the stuff.
To those who believe vandals should be castrated, or forced to tag the third rail with metal tools: The acid stuff is really easy to spill, and it permanantly damages the user's hands (or face, or body). That's why it's not used much.
-Julian
Not used much?? You need to take a ride on the "A"-especially the R44s. I say especially the R44s because not only do those bastards put that sh*t on every window and the glass on the door panels, they put it on the glass that is on the partitions. It is really a disgrace and Chris R27/30 is right, it is unacceptable to let these train go out in the condition that they are in. I remember all too well what the subways looked like in the 1980s and this is surely a good reminder of that time period.
-Julian
Next time, I will take the picture just to show how bad the problem really is.
Whats wrong with sending the vandals to Guantanamo.
Let the Marine Corps teach them some manners.
Or else get this truly HUGE DOG...
Apply Zero Tolerance to the perpetrators!
Elias
1) 5316-5317-5405-5418
note: 5319 lost to arson fire damage, scrapped.
2) 5246-5247-5337-5336
3) 5404-5403-5479-5478
note: 5402: Stock stored out of service
4) 5262-5263-5303-5302
5) 5260-5261-5277-5276
note: 5284-5285: Stock stored out of service
note: 5282-5283: Lost to derailment, 7-03-1997.
wayne
#3 West End Jeff
> Did cleaning windows get removed from the current TWU contract?
Before you start about the employees again, why don't you think of other factors?
There is limited cleaning staff at some terminals.
If the train arrived late, the cleaners may not have had time to clean all of the cars, if any.
Of course I'm all for abandoning an interval to make sure its clean and making passengers wait longer for a train rather than to let it leave the terminal on time and a little dirty. Then again, I'm not a dispatcher or a TA employee to make those decisions.
I'll be on Sunday's shop tour. If I remember, I'll ask about it.
If true, why are Coney Island's cars so filthy of late? And why was the track leading to the carwash covered with more rust than the express tracks @ Smith/9th on the date I mentioned?
Look at the rails going to the Rockaways after a weekend GO, and you'd think they weren't used in months as well.
Rust does act pretty quick on unprotected metal. I was working on my brakes when it started raining and had a rotor sitting on a table outside. After just a few minutes rust started to show.
Are the yards having a contest as to who can refrain from cleaning windows the longest before someone complains? Trains in the 1980's, covered with traditional grafitti, were actually cleaner than today's stock. Ugh!
...but I guess it's how you read it.
When the R40M's and R42's ran on the JMZ and L lines, they were routinely mixed up together, at least until they started phasing the R40M's out of East New York. I think that they are so similar, that they don't cause many problems running together. It was typical until the R143's started to arrive, and East New York started getting rid of first the R40's, then the R40M's, and finally some of the R42's that they started putting them together again.
I don't know if it's the same and can still be done since after their General Overhauls, but back in the early and mid 80's, I seem to remember occasionally seeing any of the classes between R32 to R42 running together mixed every so often and there not being any problems.
I'll try to get actual car #'s next time I see this set. Since the R40M and R42 came right after one another and both were built by St. Louis, They were probably very similar, until the GOH in the early 90's. I've never seen R32's and R38's intermixed.
Seriously though, I hope there will be some time when the MTA will replace all the damaged windows once again, and this time, they'll put on vandal shield so scratchitti removal on the windows is easy and inexpensive like R142s, R142As, and R143s.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Take a look at this:
It'll only be a matter of time until vandals figure out how to use that stuff without the risk of burning their hand off =(
-Julian
til next time
What happens in a case like that?
When they lighten the sched in cases like that....who has to show up for work & who get's paid for not having to show up for work??
All that kind of stuff....
Jimmymc25
Subways and railroads should run normal.
But check with radio and TV and a booth on Thursday.
I did specifically ask about express busses, but im sure the same holds true for subways.
June 9, 2004
To our customers and employees:
We join our fellow Americans in sorrow over the passing of former President
Ronald Reagan. In honor of his memory and in accordance with Governor
George E. Pataki’s Proclamation calling for a Statewide Day of Prayer
and Remembrance, the MTA will observe a national day of mourning this
Friday, June 11th, as the former President is laid to rest.
While MTA offices will be closed, all essential subway, bus, and railroad
services will remain in operation on regular weekday schedules for the
convenience of those customers who need to get to places of employment,
education, and recreation. All our bridge and tunnel facilities will also
be operating normally. Flags on all our facilities will be lowered to
half-staff in honor of President Reagan until July 5, 2004 – 30 days from
the date of his passing.
Our thoughts and prayers are with the Reagan family and with all our
fellow citizens as we pay respect to the memory and legacy of our 40th
President.
Sincerely,
Considering most of us still have to go to work, it had damned well better be.
"Situations arise currently where passengers “jump” the turnstiles or enter through an exit gate when their time-based card is swiped improperly or malfunctions. They then seek to have a charge of fare evasion dismissed on the theory that since they had already prepaid for unlimited transportation for a specified period (e.g., 7 days), they therefore cannot be guilty of fare evasion. In other instances, some passengers “jump” the turnstile when their improperly swiped or malfunctioning pay-per-ride MetroCard does not grant access, only to discover, after the fact, that a fare had been deducted from their card."
The proposed revision does nothing to reduce the causes of the customers' desperate actions, that is malfunctioning fare gates and cards. Worse, it seeks to punish the innocent fare payor (who is financing the system not only through taxes, but directly out of pocket) for the authority's failings. A better procedure is to have the proposed penalties apply to the personel that fail to adequately maintain the infrastructure necessary to admit the fare paying public. Extra penalties should apply to any vandal, whether employee or public, who dammages the facilities in such a way as to prevent the proper access of someone who has paid the proper fare. And there must be well known and convenient ways (for instance, speaker phones at unmanned stations) to help customers who have been shortchanged by the system.
The MTA will save money by not providing an adjustment buracracy, but this should be done by eliminating errors, not by making the customer bear the loss for the authority's mistake.
\'040607-000253\'.
"Currently, there appears to be uncertainty as to whether the provisions of section 1050.9(d) which prohibit riding between subway cars also prohibit the act of moving between cars. The use of end doors to move between cars carries with it inherent safety hazards whether or not the train is in motion. Accordingly, it is proposed that the use of end doors be prohibited except when passengers are directed to use them by NYCT personnel or a police officer."
I disagree that the possible safety hazards of moving between cars in an emergency when the train is not in motion outweigh the need to do so when NYCT personnel or a police officer is not present to direct such movement. Current subweay cars usually give automatic notice that they are about to move, which only helps to increase the safety of the movement. And as newer cars are being kept almost permanantly in long sets, it becomes more feasable to install better protection for movement between cars.
It is unreasonable to expect the MTA to have personel in every car in case of need, so some discretion must be left to the defenseless rider.
The reference number for your e-mail is \'040607-000244\'.
"Additionally, scooters would be added to the list of vehicles which may not be ridden in the system."
Won't this be in violation of the Americans with Disibilities Act?
\'040607-000255\'.
Another possibilty is it was a transfer from the bus to the BMT.
Maybe a trolley token to the BMT?
The one that Chris R27-R30 showed was a rare one, with a typo ("transfer system" instead of "transit system"); Cuhaj's work has a lot of medal and token pictures.
According to his description, they were used when someone with a paper transfer got on a bus or streetcar that had a turnstile--the paper transfer would be exchanged for it to allow entry through the turnstile into the body of the car.
The article also mentions the three-cent children's tokens, which I remember as a little kid. I had thought half-fare was a pre-Unification practice continued by the City until the fare went to seven cents. But one can always learn. Did the IRT and BMT/BQT have half-fare for children pre-Unification? What about the IND?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Ed
Reprinted from Philly Traction Board
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
At the risk of alienating some Philly Traction members, I note an interesting difference between SubTalk and our brother group, Philly Traction: many (most?) of us here live in NY and actually ride the trains all the time. It appears (I could be wrong) that many Phl Traction contributors are trolley nostalgia buffs (oh, I am, too!!) but contribute to the board from far away locations. Many are former residents of Philly but left for gentler or safer climes while still loving their Philly trolleys-- but from afar. Other than opening day hoopla and the occasional fan trip, one wonders how many of the critics condemning the delay of the 15's return will be riding the 15 on a daily basis. Don't get me wrong. I'll be delighted when the 15 returns and hope to get a chance to ride it (just as I cheered, then wept, over the Red Hook trolley's conception and stillbirth). My point-- how can we or the Philly Traction critics badmouth the *neighborhood* that has concerns, real or not, about the single track in a 2-way street when we don't live there?? We can fight for transit where we live-- and we can root for transit nationwide and worldwide, but is it fair to take on or condemn somebody else's battles when we're not part of the community? Just wondering...
Why couldn't things be worked out on 59th street. Just say the trolleys would cautiously turn the corner and travel up that street. being on the lookout for errant motorists. Is this too much to ask?
Or do they have to make the street one -way and inconvenience a handful of people?
Chuck Greene
Never the less, I can see why that would be a concern with so many people.
For people complaining about the lack of trolley service in Philadelphia, just remember this. We have 5 trolley lines in regular operation, in addition to 2 trolley/lightrail lines in the suburbs. Most cities can't boast that.
Philadelphia is perhaps the greatest "almost-was, isn't-now, never-will-be" city in the country.
Has anyone actually ridden the bustitued line to get the reaction from the daily riders to the return of the trolleys?
Chuck Greene
And if theres a work train, then you must assume that theres no need to worry about whats ahead unless there just passing by.
Robert
wayne
wayne
Have we looked into possible bent frame or other chassis damage ?
That may be the answer why that car is not repairable.
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
wayne
wayne
I wonder how sturdy the ends of the R142/R142A are. Nothing's tested them yet AFAIK.
wayne
wayne
I was at the scene the night we lost 1054 and 941. 1054 had the front end compressed to roughly the first door panel. 941 buckled due to the other 6 cars that hit it. The downgrade was again a signigicant contributing factor as was the bumping block and wall. The other factor, present in the 1369 incident was not a factor in the 1054/941 wreck. Sorry for the tease.
(if at the bottom of the SI landfill counts as still around)
It was at Witte's Marine; it has probably been recycled by now.
R-32.
wayne
R-32.
Click Here to see the last pix of car #1369!
wayne
wayne
Yeah, that's what I thought; the other one wouldn't want an IRT car.
$13,000 Parking Ticket for UP
A Union Pacific coal train blocked a grade crossing near Caledonia, Wis., for more than six hours April 18th, and racked up more than $13,000 in fines, according to the Racine Journal Times.
The train was delivering coal to a nearby power plant. The crew parked the train , uncoupled the diesels, and left. The rear car of the train blocked the crossing from at least 4:33 to 10:33 p.m.
Caledonia police issued 20 tickets. Nineteen of them, written every 20 minutes, carry a fine of $660 for blocking the highway. The other, for $1,280, was for being a public nuisance. It was the sixth time since October 2003 UP had been cited for similar violations.
UP said the crew had broken the train apart to open one crossing, but didn't realize it was blocking another.
Now I have heard EVERY THING!! Guess CSXT and New York & Atlantic better count their blessings for the scarcity of railroad crossings in Queens, Brooklyn the Bronx. Mayor Bloomy would have a field day, considering the out of control ticket blitz in the city.
In florida the owner of the rails own the crossing, and they're the ones who decides when to repave that section, when to close that street, and just do it leaving the city/counties to say that's when they're going to do it, that's it and close the road.
Then there's the article about a subdivision that has no access except to cross some CSX tracks. CSX wants a LOT of money to allow a crossing to come in plus an insurance fee that's supposed to be standard. forget when I posted this one.
If you're forcing the train operators to OWN and pay TAX on their OWN PROPERTY....i'm really missing something.....really really missing something.or is there some city/train agreement that makes this enforceable?
I don't think anyone's forcing any railroads to own property. I have seen railroads eager to transfer property to a municipality but retain a permanent right-of-way for their rail operations. This saves them from paying property tax yet allows operations. The instance I'm describing refers to sidings and not mainline.
As for that subdivision, I can't think of a place where that situation would be allowed; people would start using that 'bridge' word. I'm not familiar with Florida regulations, but my overall impression is that things are rather 'lax'.
Your pal,
Fred
Of course the psychotic mayor Paula Brown in Darby PA, who parked her car on the CSX tracks through town, because she claimed they were blocking the crossing too often.
I bet you'd see the blocking BS stopped real quick.
Face it - UP broke the law. And the law's there for a very good reason - because blocked crossings prevent the police, FD, and ambulances from crossing. And it disrupts comerce in the town, too.
They broke the law - they chose to - and they got a fine. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
And sure, the FRA will whine about it - doesn't matter, the RR broke the law, and should have to pay the fine, just like everyone else.
the crew was unaware that they had blocked the crossing.
They should have checked, after all they stopped a long train in a built-up area.
the crew was unaware that they had blocked the crossing.
They should have checked, after all they stopped a long train in a built-up area.
That's a consequence of having a two-man crew on a mile-and-a-half long train.
Our town has three grade crossing, the outer two exactly one mile apart.
As far as I know, it is railroad policy to not block any of them if possible, or else to make sure that at least one of them is open. But that is a railroad guide line, and not a law writ in stone.
The Eastern most crossing in our town is a STATE HIGHWAY complete with a State Highway number, so that would be the one to keep open if possible.
In other places bridges or over passes are to be provided. And in one place a whole road was relocated so that trains could park where they needed to be.
Elias
They do look sharp under night light
But come daylight, they just look funky
Kind of like some dates I've had, I suppose...
Anyway, I do like them and don't want to give them a bad rap.
Your pal,
Fred
I always know I'll have a GREAT time in NYC when I land at JFK and board a brigtliner consist at Howard Beach. It doesn't get a whole lot better!
Long live the Brightliners!
Thanks for the memory.
Vince
This is exactly what I do. There are presently 500 files in my Subway Photo Folder.
(And THANK YOU Subtalkers for all of the wonderful photos!)
: ) Elias
I have drawn every type of NYCTA car from R-1 through R-68 decorated as they were originally delivered!! I also did many of the LIRR types in various paint liveries. They can all be run together.
Google has some more sites listed too.
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
What is that pipe running down the middle of the trackbed? A water sprinkler-type fire suppression system?
Matt
Maybe something to do with speed control or signal system ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Da Hui
Peace,
ANDEE
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/22629.htm
Because I remember seeing at times 2 or so different R types that I cant remember at the momment.
And this is why you should not move between cars, it would have been alittle funny(though still sad) if they found batteries and such with him.
So walking between cars is safe on a parked train, but also, if you're trying to run away from danger in a particular car, yes, you may have to use the storm doors. Unfortunately, on an R44, R46, R68, or R68A, the storm doors are alwways *LOCKED*, so you're basically trapped. :-(
BTW heypaul (and to Shinycelebi as well): The man may have been on an R32 or R32A, so that's why he may have been able to get through.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
The apparent advantage, as far as the Gentleman in Brooklyn was concerned, was that the end (storm) doors would have been locked, and he could not have crossed between the cars.
The R44- Class and up (until the R143 class) are 75' cars, the other cars are 60' cars. The overhang on the longer cars causes radical and abrupt shifts of the cars in relationship to each other that make crossing between cars dangerous. Ergo: The Doors are Locked
(Except of course that people (If you can call battery salesmen "peopel") pry the doors open, which can cause problems.)
The 60' class of cars were never (heretofore) locked.
Elias
R-32.
To me there is no good place. Especially if you are carrying something in one of your two hands.
Thank God the trains are air-conditioned.
Vince
Yet C/R's are required to do it all the time.
I agree that simply waltzing out of the car is unsafe. But there is a safe way to walk between cars (hint: it involves holding onto something that doesn't slide back and forth).
That way if you lose grip on one, you're still holding on by two points and can maintain balance.
In the less likely circumstance you lose two, then you're still anchored at one point so all is not lost.
If on the lightning-bolt chance you lose three, may the Good Lord have mercy on your pitiful soul :(
All bets are off on R-40's and R-142's.
I think the failure mode there is that the grab iron on the 2nd car could get jerked away from you because of rough track or curve or whatever, and you might have a problem then.
I don't live in NYC so I don't know the equipment, but I think theoretically you are supposed to stop on the platform between cars (at least on RR and MBTA equipment there is a small platform). So it's three distinct steps: (1) open door, exit car 1; (2) grab grabiron on car 2, step on car 2 at the same time grabbing the other grabiron, move other foot on car 2; (3) open door on car 2 while maintaining both feet on car 2 platform and one hand on grabiron, enter car 2.
Again I never had training on this so don't take my word for gospel. And I know that no one really does this in real field operations, but it's good to practice the '3-point' way of doing it before developing your own short cuts as you gain confidence.
I'll try the two-handed method, although it probably won't last long. I do make sure I have a tight grip with my one hand before venturing out.
R-32.
Also, the doors of an R46 might have been open. Rare, but not unheard of.
This has been discussed many times, but rather than telling you off to the archives, I will be delighted to explain it all again : )
The cars are longer.
That means among other things that the trucks are further away from the ends of the cars.
(This is because if they were not the middles of the cars would scrape the tunnel walls and platforms on curves)
This also means that there is more overhang at the ends of the cars.
This means that when cars do curves or especially when they cross over from one track to the next, there is a sheer action that occurs that can both be abrupt and will leave you facing a blank part of the car in front of you.
If you were standing with one foot on each car (I used to love to do that, just like the R-9 conductors used to do it!) you would find yourself split (about right at the crotch) with one have on each car, but no longer attached in the middle, or more likely just dumped to the tracks like the gentelman in Brooklyn was.
Also, there is no "front-porch" (or back porch as the case may be) on this class of cars: The storm door is pretty close to the anticlimber, (IINM).
Finally, as was pointed out several weeks ago, there are no grab rails between this class of cars.
Selkirk was mentioning about the "Three-Point" grasp that was required to move between cars. Well, let me assure you that the "One-Point" contact just does not cut it!
Yes, it is true! 85' cars on LIRR and AMTK have NO PROBLEMS with this!
The trucks are close up to the ends of the cars, and there is little or no overhang. The curves are much gentler, but that is a rather moot point, since they still run across the same kinds of crossovers, but do so without problems. This is possible because the clearances allow for 85' cars and are designed to clear the belly overhang of the longer cars with the trucks at the end of the cars.
And so a tighter coupling with pivot points at the end of the car, with the trucks at the end of the car are no problem.
The subways cannot do this.
Elias
Because of all of this shucking and jiving, either a large amount of deadfall space between cars must be left, or the anticlimbers must be significantly rounded so they don't crunch against one another as the train rounds a curve.
Add to that the fact that the 75 footers were never designed to facilitate moving between cars (no grab irons, no restricted walkway to keep the geese from moving toward the car's corner (where the intercar space must be significantly larger for the reason above).
I still think the doors of the 75 footers should be unlocked, with a big skull and crossbones sign stating the passageway is only for emergency use (punishable by the fine the MTA is currently trying to implement).
Why? The window is designed to be popped out in an emergency.
And even if 100% of them could make it, imagine how much longer it would take than if they could simply walk out as God intended.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was not aware of that. And if I'm not, it's a safe bet that 99.9% of the riding public is not, so we'll all be there trying to crawl out the window. Why make things more difficult than they need to be?
R-32.
OK, boys and Girls! Dr. Lion is here!With an experiment you *CAN* do at home!
Take a dinner plate, ten inches in diameter.
Put a helping of mashed potatos one inch from the edge.
Now get a ruler and hold it up on edge.
Hold it at the 0" and at the 6" mark, and run it around the edge of your plate as if it were a 60 foot subway car! COOL Isn't it.
Ok, now do it again, but this time hold it at the 0" and the 8" marks, and run it around the edge of your plate as if it were a 75 foot subway car.
AWWW.... WOW, you smashed it into the mashed potatos!
OK, same 75 foot subway car, this time hold it at the 1" mark and at the 7" mark. Run it around the edge of the plate again!
COOL.... HEY! Watch out for the Glass of Milk! Wow that was a close one! Gosh! everything has to fit just right for this thing to work!
NOW imagine what would have happened if our train was going through the switches from the local track to the express track:
1) the rear end of the leading car would swing way over to the right.
2) the rear end of the leading car would then swing to the left as our car was still pointing to the right.
3) now our car is swinging to the left, but the leading car seems to be swinging to the right.
WOW the overhang DOES make a big difference.
Now stop playing with your food and eat your dinner!
Sheesh! Kids these days! You tell them every thing you know and they still spill their mashed potatos on the floor!
: ) The Broadway Lion
But if you repeat that experiment with individul segments being rail cars, what you find is the angle between one car and the next goes through greater excursions with longer cars, since each successive car is further along the curve than the previous one - this effect is independent of truck location, and depends only on car length and the turning radius (I could give you a formula but I'm too lazy)
The Grand and Glorious and Most Imperial LION digns to disagree with you.
IF the truck was at the very end of the car, with the follwing car riding on the very same truck... (A taglo train) Then there would be no over hang, and the storm doors would always be perfectly aligned. You might get a belly ache, but the ends would remain aligned (Albeit they would need to be rounded.)
Pull that trash barrel over here. Here is a 6" ruler. Run it along the edge with your fingers at the ends of the ruler. See: no gap between the ruler and the curve.
Now do the same with the 12" ruler: hold it by the ends: There is a two inch gap in the middle, but the ends are right on the barrel.
No move your fingers to the 2" and 10" marks: The Belly Gap becomes about 1/4 inch, but the end overhang becomes 1.5 inches. This is the overhang that causes troubles with passing between cars on the subway where there are close quarters.
An 85' long LIRR car does not have these problems. The wayside is designed to accomodate the belly overhang, and the trucks can be closer to the ends of the cars.
The LION!
You mean an articulated consist? The same thing applies.
The bottom line is, if a train is rounding a curve, the car ahead of you is further ahead on the curve than you are (and if it's anything but exactly one car length ahead you're in serious trouble), and by virtue of the fact that it's *exactly one car length* ahead means that it must have a different orientation, i.e. the two cars are not in line with one another, but rather make some oblique angle.
This angle doesn't matter one bit where the trucks are - what that does is tell you where the ends are located relative to the tracks - are the ends directly over the tracks, or somewhere on the outside of the curve? Now it is correct that if the ends of the cars overhang, then as the train rounds a curve the train ends swing more wildly, which may make it more likely to lose balance.
Now, it does matter how the cars are connected - basically, the closer the coupler is to the car end (that is, the shorter the length of any piece beneath the car that moves relative to the car), the closer the spacing between adjacent cars is guaranteed to remain.
AHHhhh.... *THERE* is your mistake!
The coupler is a pretty solid looking thing and it sure *looks* like it is attached to the end of the car... But IT IS NOT!
There is a nice picture of this in this month's Model Railroader, somebody had the opportunity to climb under a car, and discovered how far back (from the end of the car) the coupler pivot point really was.
If you go back to the LION's image of a ruler on the trash barrel (HMmmmmm....) anyway you would have to make the coupler pivot points at the 1" and 11" marks, maybe even the 1.5 and the 10.5 inch marks.
Yes the ends of the cars *DO* swing out over the running rails. Go in between an watch as the train goes over a cross over.
Wait. No don't do that either, I don't want to be responsible for your 12-9
Elias
Yes, you can observe this with your HO passenger cars.
I have some that the coupler pivot is about two inches back from the end of the car, and others where it at the end of the car.
The cars cannot be mixed together. The ones with the coupler pivot closer to the end have difficulties with certain radii.
For some of my trainsets I use drawbars instead of couplers.
The closer to the end of the car the coupler, the better it likes push-pull service. I have just as tender a mix of issues with my trains as NYCT has.
Elias
The two of you are arguing the same point. On a curve, if the carbody is long, then gap between two cars (and misalignment) is likely to be substantial. However if the trucks are located closer to the car ends, then the misalignment is less of a problem for people passing through because instead of car ends swinging out, you have car bellies swinging in. The extreme case of this is the articulated truck, where the car ends do not swing out at all. Since you cannot make the pivot right at the gangway, even with an articulated truck, there is still swinging motion. The only way to avoid swinging motion is if you do a Breda -- have the two car segments share one bolster, like between the A and C segments of a Breda.
The key issue is not in the coupling, but in the bolster -- where the carbody rests on the trucks.
It really sucked when I was stuck on an R-44 (A) train during the blackout last year, and we couldn't open the storm doors for air. -.-
Matt
Different railroads were built to different dimensions. Wider tunnels, more gentle curves, a 75' car does not have to bust it's belly against the walls, well, then you can move the trucks closer to the ends of the cars. End of problem.
Remember, the LIRR uses 85' cars and has no troubles running in their tunnels or across their swithches.
: ) Elias
Well, put an undercover cop in the next car. Make sure that the doors are correctly locked. When the battery salesman comes through, arrest him for tampering with railroad equipment.
That *HAS* to be a bigger offence than taking pictures.
Elias
What if the end doors were all properly locked?
What if the person tried to board the train from between cars after it was moving?
What if he fell between the cars, tripping the car he fell under?
As long as everyone has an opinion, perhaps this is another possible senerio.
What if the passenger was peeing between the cars and had both hads on his business when the curve came.
I scarred my-self a lot swiching cars on an R-32 E train I assumed that the tracks between Jamaica Center and Sutphin Blvd were as streight as an arrow so I swiched cars, but NO I was completely starteled when I was almost thrown since the train had to go over an X swich, also the front car had both the end doors closed meaning I had to run around at Jamaica-Van Wyck
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/22810.htm
I wonder how many people are killed as a result of walking between cars?
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/22655.htm
According to the Times' article, tear gas may have been released.
"According to bankersonline.com, an Internet resource for bankers, dye packs often contain tear gas, in addition to smoke and dye. The gas in the explosion is intended to briefly disorient the robber, in addition to dyeing both criminal and money."
Like getting caught red handded!
Hey! How do *you* know what is in there???
: )- Elias
So if no one notices a bank robber covered in soot and red dye, can you imagine no one observing a potential terrorist or prankster leaving a suspicious package, looking around first before he leaves his mark?
We don't???
FROM THE POST STORY:
The suspect is described as a 5 feet 8 inches tall, black, between 25 and 32 years old, wearing a blue coat and white baseball cap.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hmmmm! So much for "If you see something, say something" attitude.
--Mark
Nah, if I was going to rob money, I wouldn't waste my time on a piddly cash drawer at a bank - I'd run for ELECTED OFFICE! No point in going to jail for a petty crime - I'd make a law and exempt myself from any responsibility. Just like REAL politicos. Heh.
Just a suggestion. It'd be a shame if you stopped the walk of the lions. :-)
Actually they do not. The replies are in the same order, only the indentation gets messed up a little bit. But the SOLID DIAMOND is an immediate reply, the OPEN DIAMOND is a second generation reply, and the rest of the replies are all SOLID SQAURES.
: ) GRRRrrrrr....
Who followed him on this silly routing?
(I wondered why for two long blocks from 6th Ave to University Place, no one ever noticed a strange man running with a bag in his hand.)
Posted on:6/8/04 5:59:44 PM
Due to police activity at Court Street in Brooklyn, northbound M and R trains are bypassing Court Street. Southbound M trains are turning at Broad Street. Southbound R trains are operating via the Manhattan Bridge.
(Well, except that my B, which was already running more than the scheduled headway behind its leader, was held at West 4th and again at Kings Highway.)
(I meant to post this yesterday, but I hit my quota before I got around to it.)
If you are interested send me a personal e-mail.
You'll also have the option at Long Beach of LIRR or N15 to Rockville Centre & LI Bus N4 back to Jamaica ... or back the way you came.
There is also City of Long Beach buses to ride if that's you desire, but they'll be an extra fare.
It was a very nice way to spend a Friday afternoon & early evening.
Want to do your own "Field Trip" ?
- Get a few friends interested
- Agree on a route/destination
- Publicize it.
- It has been a great way for me to meet some folks who are now amoung my best friends ! (this trip I happen to have know every one, but for some it was their first timne to Long Beach)
From the Daily News:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/201058p-173531c.html
"Turban turnabout heads off TA flap
By CELESTE KATZ
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
A veteran Sikh subway motorman who was yanked out of the driver's seat last week for wearing his turban at work has his regular job back.
Kevin Harrington, 53, will be on the No. 4 train tomorrow, three days after the Transit Authority reassigned him to moving trains around a yard for disobeying the dress code, which, for headgear, permits only a regulation TA cap.
"I'm glad that it's happened. I think it's a good place to begin, and I think we have a lot more to do with the Transit Authority as far as civil rights," Harrington said at the Manhattan headquarters of Transport Workers Union Local 100 yesterday.
Harrington, who lives in the Bronx near the Woodlawn No. 4 station, grew up in Queens and adopted the Sikh faith in 1978. He said he was wearing his turban when first hired as a cleaner 23 years ago, and has worn it without any complaints during two decades as a motorman.
"We took a look at the enforcement of the policy and realized that it has been uneven over the last few years," said TA spokesman Charles Seaton. "We didn't think it was fair to him to keep him out of service."
Seaton also said the TA is going to look at revamping the dress code with an eye toward accommodating workers who wear headgear for religious reasons.
A case involving three female bus drivers who were reassigned last year after they refused to stop wearing Muslim head coverings called khimars on the job is pending, said Roger Toussaint, the union's president.
Originally published on June 9, 2004 "
[I can't help myself from this pun (and with all respect to Kevin Harrington) - "Sikh and ye shall find"
Mark
This paragraph was taken from the WMATA Web Site:
To honor the former President, Metro officials also draped black bunting today along a portion of the mezzanine at Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport Metrorail Station in Arlington. The station, which serves both the Blue and Yellow Lines, was renamed Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport Metrorail station in 2002
I think this is worthy of a photo
Thanks,
Mark
To honor the former President, Metro officials also draped black bunting today along a portion of the mezzanine at Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport Metrorail Station in Arlington. The station, which serves both the Blue and Yellow Lines, was renamed Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport Metrorail station in 2002.
I think this is worthy of a photo.
Thank you Mark.
I would hazard guess that the Post and Times as well as the wire services might have all ready taken such pictures.
I will check with Phil Portlock at WMATA to see if he took any pictures and ask if I might get digital copies that can be published to the photo archive at http://world.nycsubway.org
John
I missed the R32 entering Newkirk Ave 'cause my back was turned as I was exiting, but I did get the odd #3348 renumbered car. I can also take photos as well but I think it would be nice to see videos first.
If you leave comments directly on the album, please leave your handle name after the album. Thank you.
What I'm really curious about is if Metro plans to leave the existing Red Line tracks in place bypassing the station as non-revenue tracks and just adding new tracks to get trains into and out of the station, or if Metro is planning on completely removing the existing Red Line tracks at New York Avenue station in favor of a new alignment.
Anyone know?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
What I'm really curious about is if Metro plans to leave the existing Red Line tracks in place bypassing the station as non-revenue tracks and just adding new tracks to get trains into and out of the station, or if Metro is planning on completely removing the existing Red Line tracks at New York Avenue station in favor of a new alignment.
Anyone know?
A friend of mine inside WMATA gave me a copy of the track layout in PNG format. Both main line tracks will be realigned to pass through the station platforms. The existing M03 M Street crossover will be moved south from 98+55 to 86+00. Both mainline approaches will be razed to the proper elevation of the station platform.
The plans originally called for putting in one passing track on the old alignment that would bypass the platform connected to the northbound main line track B1. I don’t have the figures on how long said passing track was planed to be. I would hazard a guess that the turnout on the south end of the passing track would have been just north of the relocated M Street crossover with the turnout on the north being north of the Florida Avenue overpass.
It has never been explained to me why the passing track was dropped from the originally plan. But I would guess their are two likely reasons. 1. Cost; 2. The S curves in the approaches at both ends of the New York Avenue station on mainline track B1 making it difficult to install the turnouts that would connect to the passing track.
John
wayne
I agree !
Had I had any input in how the station was designed and fitted in the existing alignment the station would look very different then the way it was built.
Mind you the way I had done it would have had a greater disruption on operation then the way it was done.
First off I would have built the southbound half of the platform and elevated that would carry the southbound B2 track just west of the existing the southbound B2 track. After completion of the southbound half of the station I would move the southbound B2 track to the new alignment through the station platform. Then I would move the northbound B1 track east as close to the Washington Terminal property line as physically possible and build the northbound half of the station platform. After completing the northbound half of the platform and all of the support facilities for the station. I would then move the northbound B1 track to the proper location next to the northbound platform then open the station.
John
Posted on:6/8/04 5:59:44 PM
Due to police activity at Court Street in Brooklyn, northbound M and R trains are bypassing Court Street. Southbound M trains are turning at Broad Street. Southbound R trains are operating via the Manhattan Bridge.
This is still posted on the MTA service alert page. What on earth is going on at COurt Street?
There was a roped-off area with a fair amount of blood on the ground, and two people (possibly 3) were being treated.
Does anyone have any more info on this at all?
Summer 1983 was a particularly hot one in NYC, and the subway system had yet to recover from the breakdowns, derailments and overall chaos that had plagued it for the previous decade. More than half the rolling stock lacked air-conditioning- about 80% on the IRT. As a result, fights seemed to break out with great frequency. The worst ones by far were those between two women. One such altercation at Queensboro Plaza was in full view of a couple of cops who were AFRAID to break it up.
Maybe they were unwilling to break it up. After all, fights between women can have interesting clothing-torn-off possibilities :)
Blame the NIMBYs from the 1940s and 1950s for what ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Would that include the real estate interests who wanted to buy up and tear down the old tenaments and build rise rise on 3rd Ave ?
Bill "Newkirk"
At 3rd Ave I stand right by the turnstiles. There's always someone getting off. That gives me room to get on.
Not a problem at Third Ave. In the AM rush, 20 people get off and 10 get on.
They should replace it with the 5, because the 5 is always empty
Adam
http://www.metropolismag.com/html/content_0604/obj/index.html
Also, please remember that Cooper Street becomes Rockaway Avenue south of Broadway.
The girl, Tianie Hazel, said she boarded a train at the Georgia Avenue station in Northwest Washington last Thursday and was minding her business when an older girl came up and began punching her.
Another rider, Yamashita Paines, 25, boarded the train - by mistake - at another station. That error turned out to be Tianie's good fortune when Paines came to her aid.
"When I got on this little girl was getting beat up," Paines told WTTG-TV. "And no one would do anything about it, so I jumped in." But the suspects then turned on Paines and stole her wallet before running off at the next stop.
"The following day, on June 4th, pursuant to the investigation, four apprehensions were made," Metro Transit Police spokeswoman Linda Foxwell said, adding the suspects range in age from 13 to 15. The search continued for the other four. But Tianie's mother was just relieved her daughter's ordeal was over - and that Paines decided to get involved.
"It's a godsend," said Strommett Hazel. "I'm thankful, very thankful for her."
If the "filter was still on this would have read:
"Another rider, Yamaflowera Paines,"
Mark
p.s.---Trivia Time---Nicholson Lane---What station am I referring to? Also, this IS NOT one of the clues for the 19th.
11-year-olds should feel safe enough to ride alone on the transit system. I grew up in Edinburgh (Scotland), where I rode the #11 and #15 buses regularly to school when I was aged 11-13.
Then the assault thing got so bad (never on the buses, always after I got off, and always by neighbourhood kids belonging to a rival "gang") I had to have my parents pick me up by car at a local park & ride lot. But I still rode transit from the Park & Ride lot. I switched to route #27 (peak-only) and route #23 (if I missed the #27, requiring my parents to drive me to the P&R instead of walking to the peak-only pickup stop.
It's too bad that those people feel they can pick on other youngsters. Not sure what can be done, other than to teach youngsters self defense techniques. I learned a lot through the assault episodes and I think it prepared me well for living in Dorchester, MA.
AEM7
Earlier still, from age 5 in Hertfordshire, I had gone to school in one of the again fashionable "walking buses" - that is, one of the teachers gathered up all the kids who lived across the main road from school, and then walked us in a crocodile to school for safe crossing of the busy road.
In my entire school career I never had the services of a school bus. In secondary school I used a public trolley-bus (trackless trolley to you, but a double-deck one, of course) to get to school. And from the age of about 12, I used to go with another railfan friend from Brighton to London (50 miles away) for a day's railfanning, travelling all over London by the tube, without any adults with us.
I was riding the bus to school when I was in the 5th grade.
3rd Grade, here.
And now I'm in DC actually.
-WES
Me personally, I didn't see the inside of a school bus (except for school trips) until I moved to Queens from the Bronx at the age of 11. The ONLY reason I started riding the school bus then was becaused we were "bused" to other neigborhoods for school.
So you see, as I stated earlier, it's just a part of life here in NYC.
Somehow, I suspect the 19th won't be that easy...
Replace the xxxxx with the image number. So here is image #31204.
<a href="www.yourlink.com">text you want it to say here</a>
So for example, if you wanted to post the link for image 26245, you would put it into the formula like this. Put the spaces and quotes just like below:
<a href="http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?26245">http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?26245</a>
Of course, you can put any text you want it to say in the second part of the formula, I just put the actual link text there, but JohnL typed "here" there.
So when you post the link like above, this is what the formula above will result in when posted:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?26245
I always type the formula first like this:
<a href=""></a>
and then just copy and paste the link between the quotes and then between the greater-than and less-than signs (or text you want it to say there). It's quicker that way.
This isn't the first time this has happened on my line. I'm sure its happened on everyone's else's lines too. The volume of the talker's voice is not the only problem; very often, conversations drag on and on and go into details that no one other than the parties to the call care one whit about.
To alleviate this problem, I suggest that the MTA designate several cars on each train to be "phone-free" cars, meaning that cell-phone discussions are prohibited thereon, on penalty of a fine. The "phone-free" cars will be available to anyone who doesn't want to be subject to the constant yammering of an inconsiderate rider who thinks he's in his living room. People who need to make a call can move into a "phone car."
Ideas?
wayne
That reminds me of the customers at Branford who ask which is the next car to leave when there are two consecutive cars one after the other at the end of the same track!!
This is reasonable at Penn Station because there's no real sense of direction. I'm not sure how reasonable it is at Jamaica or elsewhere, and it would be quite absurd at Hoboken Terminal or Grand Central Terminal.
wayne
wayne
And it is pleasant! I'm not sure if I was in the designated 'quiet car' or if simply no one used noisy devices, but it really is a nice ride. Almost makes me wish they didn't allow tonal choices on cell phones. Nah... Well, yeah, it does.
Your pal
Fred
At least on my ride, while nobody dared make a short, quiet phone call (perhaps to inform a spouse that the train was running a half hour late -- oh, wait, according to Amtrak's records it miraculously arrived only ten minutes late), there were numerous loud, prolonged business meetings taking place in the Quiet Car(tm), as though it were a collection of private conference rooms stuffed together, with poor me sitting in the middle.
Combine that with the bright lighting and there was no point in either trying to sleep or to look out the window.
Your pal,
Fred
One of the worst I've experienced was hearing someone call an 800-number to place an order, audibly reciting credit card numbers and expiration date, full name, address, and telephone number.
I sometimes think there's a sign over my head which says, 'Sit here and drive this guy crazy.'
That stupid "Can you hear me?" sounds like telephone service from the World War I era. And "You're breaking up" is just as inane.
Lowered volume on some of those audio head sets would be appreciated, too. Hearing the highs and lows can be maddening.
I try to get on a quiet car whenever I can.
One advantage of living in a rural area is that I drive through constitutionally protected areas in which cell-phones don't work or are prohibited and if I stop, I don't have to listen to the noise.
Ed Alfonsin'
Potsdam, New York
Then, a passenger across the aisle pulled out a little tape recorder and held it up near the lawyer. The passenger said, "I'm taping this call." The lawyer cursed at the passenger but hung up the cell and didn't get back on until he left the train.
For those who don't realize what happened, communications between lawyers and clients are privileged and confidential unless the client waives the privilege, thereby giving the attorney permission to discuss the case with others. In discussing this case where non-clients could hear, without permission from the client, the attorney breached confidentiality without permission and could have been subject to discplinary action by the NY Bar, as well as sued by his client.
[Moving to Chicago where I go to school]
The only (relatively) quiet section is in the subway where the signal can't reach. That is until CTA powers up their new system to allow cell phones in the subway. Then it will be really bad as the 2600s on the Red line have more flats than a road in Kansas (or Oklahoma) and sometimes are loud enough that you can't even hear yourself think, let alone someone on a phone. Too bad SMS service in the US is so expensive. Maybe someday phones will be wired right into the head...or all the cell phone towers will fall over. ;)
Matt
I listened to about 5-10 minutes worth of messages without making a sound myself (the phone volume was low enough that nobody else would hear my messages as well). The entire time I was on the phone, another passenger kept shooting me death glare daggers.
So here's my question -- is the quiet car cell phone free even if you're not talking???
CG
In this instance, I just put the phone to my ear knowing that nobody else could hear it and that there was no reason for me to speak. Since I had the phone set to a noiseless setting, the keys don't even beep. I'm very sensitive to letting someone else overhear my business or see what I'm working on (I generally won't even open my laptop if someone is sitting next to me unless I know that they are not in my business).
From Todd's post I realize now that the rule is that cell phones are to be turned off. It strikes me as odd that something that can be entirely noise-free is prohibited in a quiet car while other non-noise-free activities (talking as though you are in a library) are permitted. (as an aside -- have you ever run across one of those people who's whisper voice is louder than their regular voice)??
CG
Like the Will Ferrell character from SNL with voice immodulation disorder? LOL
But holding business meetings at full volume on the train is perfectly fine and doesn't disturb any of the other passengers.
Mark
See y'all on the 19th.
mark
Could be, although I don't believe there are any MTA rules on the subject yet in force.
Lets see if that is still true on July 1st.
Wrong board.
Which is why I thought it odd that the officer showed the couple something in a manual that bore an MTA PD logo. It couldn't be an anti-photo rule as none exists.
For sure. Babies will be born. People will die. Couples will get married. In short, life will go on as usual, like always.
It will be Saturday.
THE TERRORISTS HAVE WON!LETS ALL BOW AND RESPECT THEM!
That's what we seem to be doing these day's anyway!
Da Hui
I wonder if it's because it was a cop, but sometimes that doesn't matter, but well off business-tourists are usually the nastiest people and wouldn't surprise me if he started throwing punches. :)
But seriously, I wonder what the American Hotel/Motel Association's stance is on this, and the New York regional Chapter. Because this is up there to if there were a rule banning photos on the Vegas Strip!
It is hard to describe the new card but it sort of looks like a section of a board game with spaces to represent the stops and small stylized pictures of riders and subway cars.
Don't hold me to this but it may be possible that once all the Redbird cards are replaced they might wind up in the TM stores rather than the TA just dumping them in the trash. Don't go bugging the TM Store staff about this because they are not going to know the answer. The best thing is to keep watching what is available in the store once all the new cards are in place.
If you look at the TM online store they state that the Whale cards -
"This batch of posters rode in the trains over the past 2 years and may have slight edge imperfections, though they are perfect for framing. "
Anything is possible.
There's a --MARKET-- for those cards (aka those who didnt get them last time)
and we all know the BookCookers AINT allergic to pocketin' some geese money.
1Buyer9
BETCHA $2 that don't happen with the REDBIRD cards....
The Redbird is a classic - I hope the sell them.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
The name of the work is "Redbird in Air".
I don't think the R17s were even around when the Redbird paint scheme was instituted. That is one of the things that made that poster/card even more desirable.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3089
Other pictures do show a bright red paint scheme but that was before the Redbird color.
it's red.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?3089
Other pictures do show a bright red paint scheme but that was before the Redbird color.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Evan: It was IRT Gate cars which were delivered via the then New Haven Railroad to a point on today's MN Beacon Line next to Lkae Whaley. The el cars were converted to cabins for use by members of the NYC Department of Transportation as a summer camp. IT was known as Camp Sanita. I don't have they exact stats in front of me but there were around 50+ cabins. In the 1950's the Camp was turned over to the Boy Scout and more recently a housing developement was put in that destroyed most of what was left of the old camp.
Larry, RedbirdR33
While it isn't practical to return it to service, it would still be nice (the R110b was a really nice train). Perhaps on every other Friday?
Thanks,
-Julian
But I could be wrong.
til next time
They should restore its interior (the propulsion system doesn't have to work), and put the three-car set in the transit museum. They should also have random automated announcements, with a fully working "next stop" display and stripmap.
The remaining, working sets should go to the (C), with programmed announcements, route display, and stripmaps.
Or, even better, restore the three-car set at CI and run the nine car set on the (A) during the centennial, and afterwords, run it every other weekend (or something to that effect, since only a few people are trained to operate it).
-Julian
David
They should restore its interior (the propulsion system doesn't have to work), and put the three-car set in the transit museum. They should also have random automated announcements, with a fully working "next stop" display and stripmap.
The two remaining sets should go to the (C), with programmed announcements, route display, and stripmaps.
Or, even better, restore the three-car set at CI and run the nine car set on the (A) during the centennial, and afterwords, run it every other weekend (or something to that effect, since only a few people are trained to operate it).
-Julian
The Rise and Fall of the Amateur New York Subway Riding Committee, the chronicle of the 1966-1967 PDP-6 computer aided efforts to ride the subway system as fast as possible.
If you've read any of the "New Hackers Dictionary/Jargon File" you will be familiar with the article's author, Peter Samson. He was one of the founders of the famous MIT Tech Model Railroad Club.
-Dave
Very fascinating piece of everyone's dream of conquering the entire NYC subway system. Thanks Dave!
Does anyone know if at any time, freight service went to the abandoned warehouse next to Yankee Stadium? I've seen by looking, that at one time it must have had two loading levels.
Regards,
Jimmy
What someone told me today that the street was one way when the
trolleys were running, now it is two way, for the trolley to pull out
of the depot it has to go up the middle of the street and there is no
room for cars to pass.
This all could change by Sunday.
Reprinted from Philly Traction Groups (Trolley Bill)
Chuck Greene
Jumping the gun there, aren't we SEPTA? It's a bit too soon to pull the roster for the 10 from Elmwood.
Chuck Greene
Click Here
Enjoy!
Regards,
That is about the only action that can express my feelings now.
WASHINGTON - Metrorail ridership was running high Wednesday, with a number of people apparently heeding police advice and using mass transit.
As of 5:15 p.m., 592,166 trips had been taken on the subway. That was up 72,678 from the same time Tuesday.
Metro spokeswoman Lisa Farbstein said if the trend continued until closing time at midnight, it could be a top ten ridership day - possibly even in the top four or five.
The Ronald Reagan funeral procession made its way through suburban Maryland, the District of Columbia and northern Virginia during the evening rush hour. Commuters and those going to view the procession were urged to take Metro.
The all-time highest ridership day was President Bill Clinton's first inaugural on Jan. 20, 1993, when 811,257 people used the subway. The runner-up is the Million Man March on Oct. 16, 1995, when 804,146 people rode the rails.
The WMATAs metrorail system daily average exceeds 500,000+ daily riders. Actually as I recall the daily average for the completed 103 mile system is over 650,000. In the summer tourist season 700,000 is not unusual.
John
You obviously are an advocate. I am not. Passenger rail is not the best way to spend transit funds to provide transit service in most areas.
John
What do you see as a better way to spend funds. I think Amtrak should be funded in the range of the 1-2 billion they have requested per year. It is a drop in the bucket compared to the subsidies the airlines get. And agencies like the MTA (LIRR subways ect) are very wise places to spend funds.
Building highways is self defeating, you build it relieve congestion and they just make more congestion
I think it should be privatized---kinda like what it was before Amtrak
John
Hey, I have no trouble with funding infrastructure improvement and expansion in the metropolitan New York area. What I have problems with is spending large amounts of capitol on rail projects where expanding bus operations on existing infrastructure would be a better use of limited capitol. I can give you two examples where lite rail project are lousy use of capitol, Baltimore Lite Rail and Charlotte lite rail.
What most here don’t know, construction capitol for first segment of the Baltimore Lite Rail Camden Station to Timonium Fairgrounds segment was paid from Maryland Transportation Authority toll revenues from toll facilities that are more then 100 miles away from the lite rail line.
Charlotte North Carolina is having to raise property taxes to provide matching funds for the project however the vast majority of the property owner are no where near the line.
As for Amtrak. The long distance service should privatized or shut down all together. The corridor service should be either privatized or turned over to a multi state operating authority that is subsidized with member state revenue.
John
As much as I'd LOVE to see "commuter rail" for the suburbs surrounding Albany, Schenectady and Troy and perhaps "light rail" or a REAL subway in Albany, the population density just doesn't justify the insane costs of doing so and then maintaining it. As the economics work out, Washington DC barely has enough population and demand to justify what THEY have. Damned shame, but very real. :(
As much I don’t like coffee, I am glad I am not the only one here that has waken up to smell it.
John
Mark
And if you insist on going somewhere, you can come to my house and shovel my walk and driveway.
We rather have you travel to shelters via the Streets than take our subway underground in hurricanes... go screw yourself and have a nice day
When was the last time you were in a hurricane or tropical storm?
Looks like they fell a little short ;)
John
Correct me if I am wrong, but I heard somewhere that the daily average on WMATA metrorail is second only to NYCTA in the United States. It passed the CTAs rail transit operation a couple of years ago. Mind you it’s a distant second but second never the less.
John
I believe that's correct. Even though DC is significantly less than NYCT, its still 2nd. Its not even worth trying to compare NYCT to WMATA.
To be a little more precise, a distant second, but second never the less.
John
Peace,
ANDEE
"We're looking at some type of shelter or some type of storage facility," where people could get out from the rain, he says.
"If there's lightning, we'll move the crowds from out of the barricades in front of the Capitol to across the street where there is no metal," Pettiford says.
http://www.wtop.com/index.php?sid=211857&nid=25wtop.com/index.php?sid=211857&nid=25
WASHINGTON - With the funeral procession and public viewing of the casket of former President Ronald Reagan on Wednesday, ridership on Metro set a record with 850,636 people riding the rails.
"We did not anticipate that it would be the new No. 1," Metro spokeswoman Lisa Farbstein says. "It was highest ridership in our 28 year history."
The record was set, even though federal workers had the option of liberal leave.
The previous all-time highest ridership day was President Bill Clinton's first inaugural on Jan. 20, 1993, when 811,257 people used the subway. Before that, the Million Man March on Oct. 16, 1995 had 804,146 people riding the rails.
Metro initially told WTOP that its buses 7,203 people to the Capitol Rotunda for the viewing overnight, but then corrected the figure. Farbstein says 1,760 customers took the buses from RFK Stadium to the Capitol and 1,841 returned to RFK.
The bus service will run again between 11:30 p.m. Thursday and 6 a.m. Friday.
From 1 p.m. until 7 p.m. Thursday, Metro will run rush hour peak service.
And, in anticipation of crowds lining the streets after Reagan's national funeral service at the National Cathedral Friday, Metro will offer rush hour service all morning and afternoon, Farbstein says.
Regular subscription service for Metro Access riders has been canceled on Friday.
I've been wondering, are all of these people local, or if not, where are they parking? I'm just wondering the logistics of moving them all.
No idea where all the out of towners parked since it seems like every tourist WTOP interviewed drove for hours to get here.
Our passengers were awesome. I guess giving them a free ride helps, but were very friendly as I directed them to which bus they needed if the destination sign wasn't working right.
-Chris
When the south side was reopened briefly in 1990, the N was sent express and the R was the only local. The local stations were starved, and it probably wasn't the ideal service plan in retrospect, but at least through passengers saved substantial time.
The local stations always seemed starved to me with the N and the R stopping at them! I couldn't imagine them with just the R!
David
Things become dicey when there's a delay in R service (a frequent occurance). Three times I've seen W trains extended past Whitehall St. to fill a gap in R service.
You mean the (N)ever and the (R)arely?
BTW, there was scheduled express service on Broadway during 1995, when a GO forced the north side tracks to close middays and all weekend long. Q service operated via tunnel, then express to 57th St and on to Queensbridge. With no need to merge with the N/R again, using the express tracks in this case made sense.
I'd like to see the M run to Bay Ridge, not Bay Parkway, but infrastructure constraints prevent that.
I didn't say they did.
I said that West End riders bound for lower Manhattan prefer Nassau over Broadway.
I know, and that's what I was addressing. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that more West End riders switch to the R at Pacific than ride the M directly into lower Manhattan.
Why would you think that? There's more square footage of office space east of Broadway than west of it for the time being.
How do you know that?
Hopefully putting the Sea Beach back on the bridge will help, but more frequent service, station rehabilitation and access to Coney Island are all necessary to really bring the line most of the way back to its glory days.
**********
-Chris
Two Towers - Entry post/stanchion at the Broadway & 35th St (northwest corner) entrance to the 34 St-Herald Square station.
-Chris
CIY Tour Pictures--Motor Shop
CIY Tour Pictures--Outside the buildings
CIY Tour Pictures--Main Overhaul Shop
CIY Tour Pictures--Restoration of the Lo-Vs
Koi
At leat 4 cars: The two cars sitting on the yard tracks and the two cars being restored (5290 and 5292). I didn't see any more at the yard.
Koi
Regards,
Jimmy
MTA-NYC Transit Coney Island Shops Visit and Tour
SUNDAY, JUNE 13 | 11 AM — Come with us and explore the Coney Island Shops, one of the largest transportation facilities in North America, on June 13. Lunch will be on your own at a location of your choosing. It is suggested that, following the tour, you may want to visit the rebuilt Stillwell Av-Coney Island station. The ticket price is only $15. For further updates and information, please call 718-784-3643 evenings.
Click here to download more information and the application form.
I sent in my check last week and I haven't gotten anything in return.
-Broadway Buffer
Ronald Wilson Reagan 1911-2004
Why the hell are you posting this NOW??
-Broadway Buffer
Ronald Wilson Reagan 1911-2004
It's worth every penny !!!!!
Got the T-shirt??
til next time
thanks
paul
-Broadway Buffer
Ronald Wilson Reagan
When the Q is extended up to 125th St/ 2nd Av in about 10 years or so with the T train, *If The Manny B is still open and the N and Q are still going Via Broadway Express, will the N go express to 57 st / 7 av , then switch over back to the local north of 57/7 or will IT STILL crossover south of 42 st and north of 34th st. Since the Q will be a "theu " train right thru 57/7 then via 63rd st to 2nd av stations, Does anybody know if the N will go past 34 as a Broadway Express??
D via Brighton 1967-2001---R.I.P............
Bring back the N local (or at least make it express thru 42).
R-4 ave local- via bridge bway express via 63rd st to forest hills local
N sea beach express (weekdays) via bridge bway exp to astoria
W SB local weekdays and via tunnel alltimes to astoria
Q Brighton local bway express via bridge to 125/lex
My that is a long stretch.
Trains through the 60th Street Tunnel will want to be on the local track at 57th Street. The Best way to get there, seems to switch after times square and thus make the local stop at 49th Street.
Trains for 125th Street or for the 63rd Street Tunnel (lets keep our options open now, eh?) will be on the express tracks at 57th.
But above all else LOOK FOR THEM TO KEEP THE SWITCHING SIMPLE!
Simple switching makes for faster trains and greater tph.
Elais
Well, somebody asked for a Flushing Lion!
Mapaseequa?
I don't think so.
I was from Merrick!
: ) Elias
-Broadway Buffer
Ronald Wilson Reagan 1911-2004
Back to the track maps, Lion. Trains going to Queens via 60 St can be on either the express or local track at 57/7. Trains going to Queens via 63 St MUST be on the express track.
Yes, Yes, Yes, this is 100% correct! But since they are using the "Express" Tracks as a "Terminal" it makes sense to keep the 60th Street service on the Local tracks.
WHEN *** : ) additional service is provided beyond 57th Street, to 125th or to 63rd Street Tunnel, then yes it *could* go to 60th Street from 57th Exp, but ****WHY*** ???
I'll bet a nice tender wildebeest that the 60th Street trains will run on the "Local" tracks and that the 63rd Street trains will run on the "Express" Track.
Makes the Switching Easier... and MTA likes easier, even if the only terrorists they can catch are wearing cameras.
The LION!
Office of the Controller Memorandum
To: All MTA- New York City Transit Employees
From: Kevin F. McKenna, Controller
Date: June 9, 2004
Re: President Reagan – Memorial Observation
To honor former President Ronald Reagan, Friday, June 11, 2004 is being designated as a Federal and State day of mourning. MTA-New York City Transit will run a normal weekday-operating schedule.
NYC Transit Department Heads will be determining which employees will be required to report for work as scheduled. Those employees who are needed for the safe and efficient provision of normal service or other essential duties will be required to work. Each reporting employee will be granted a compensatory day which can be utilized as time off during this calendar year in the same manner as other compensatory days.
Those employees who are not required to report for work will be granted the day off with pay.
Employees in both categories who are already scheduled to be off due to vacation, sick leave, AVA, FMLA, RDO, etc. will remain in that leave status and will not be granted a compensatory day.
If you should have any questions regarding this day of remembrance, please contact the Timekeeping & Payroll Services Division at
(718) 694-1120.
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=255604&category=STATE&newsdate=6/9/2004
It is CUSTOMARY for employees with an RDO of Friday to receive the compensatory time. Such will be the case for EVERY OTHER AGENCY. What IS unusual (and MTA is going along with) is the loss of that comp time for those who are scheduled off on Friday where it is NOT an RDO. This was always done in the past.
Kinda fitting, the screwage though, in light of what's being "celebrated." :(
IE in this case if you were scheduled to work on Friday and don’t have to, you get the day off with pay. If you work you get a comp day. If it was one of your days off (say you work Sunday->Thursday), you get screwed.
Why hasn’t the union had something to say about this?
R-32.
(and yes, RDO="Regular Day(s) Off")
New York is ALL ABOUT its diversity, and it's the DIFFERENCES that make it a place worth visiting. One of the idjits I spoke to indicated that people working the subway should "look like an AMERICAN, not a 'foreigner'" I *live* for idjits like that. So I asked them to DESCRIBE what an AMERICAN looks like. (grin)
At Stillwell through some dumb luck I caught a R-32 and got the railfan window again. Around Ave X a young guy came up and wanted to take some pictures out of the front window. I thought he was one of us but he said he was just back in NYC after about a year away and couldn't wait to take pictures from a NYC Subway.
When I told him of the ban and the problems people were having he thought (like most of us) that it was ludicrous.
All in all a pleasent viewing day from the fast disappearing rail fan window (I had to take the T/O test in October because soon there will be no place to enjoy the unparalled views afforded by the railfan window.
Vince
Why?
For the same reason that birds perched on power lines don't.
Oh wait, that doesn't really answer the question, does it?
Because the animal was never touching the third rail and ground
at the same time, therefore its body never completed the
electrical circuit and no current flowed.
For electricity to FLOW (it's the AMPS that get ya) you have to have a DIFFERENCE of potential. The third rail is 600 volts. "Ground" or the rails is zero (or thereabouts) ... the DIFFERENCE in voltages if bridged by meat will cause umpteen thousand AMPS to flow. But if you're perched on the 600, and NOT grounded, then nothing flows and thus you're sitting at 600 volts, but it's meaningless because current doesn't flow. Granted, small amounts of leakage current CAN flow and if there's just a little, fricasse. But if you're insulated, you're safe.
If the wee animal is touching ground AND the 600 volts, then it's Kentucky Fried Rodent ... :)
You ain't just whistling Dixie, Kev.
It's even better with 12KV.
At Baltimore's Penn Station, there are lots of "flying rats". Every once in a while one manages to touch the wire while sitting on a station beam. KA-BOOM!!!!!
A friend of mine once saw a two birds touch beaks - one on the beam and one on the trolley. His commemt: "That was the hottest piece of ass he ever got."
There was the "BANG", and the crash of the pantograph shoe on the platform (scared the Redcap and the conductor as it skidded on the platform) followed by a few burned feathers swirling on the concrete.
Wildlife and electric railroads do not mix.
The pantograf is live, and therefore at the same voltage as the messenger wire. If what you witnessed is correct, I think that maybe the bird decided to somehow touch the panto and the car body at the same time. How fast was the Metroliner moving?
There was the "BANG", and the crash of the pantograph shoe on the platform (scared the Redcap and the conductor as it skidded on the platform) followed by a few burned feathers swirling on the concrete.
I'm surprised that the panto was torn off in this incident. I guess the panto designs back then were pretty crap.
AEM7
He said the "Shoe" not the Pantograph.
The carbon shoes on the pantograph are designed to 1) wear faster to protect the wire; and 2) be easily replaced.
Or at least that is my understanding of the beast.
Elias
They L-O-V-E Penn Station Baltimore, with all the cranies and beams. However they and the 12KV do not get along.
Most powerline work is done "hot" these days - folks don't LIKE having their power off just because there's a fire somewhere. :)
Because we are SMARTER than people!
"Because the animal was never touching the third rail and ground
at the same time, therefore its body never completed the
electrical circuit and no current flowed."
And because a nice back of hair is not a particularly good conductor of electricity.
And if you *are* a bird (and have not yet been eaten by a cat) then feathers are not a paricularly good conductor of electricity either.
And if you are a HUMAN, then your skin is only a marginaly better conductor of electricity: it is all of the nice juices in side of you with electrolites in them that *are* a good conductor of electricity. But you skin also has moisture in it enough to conduct power to the fluid pathways inside!
Here, have some more GATORAIDE, turkey!
The Broadway Lion
a squirrel ran across the tracks, through the third rail, and off to the other side.
So this guy ducked under the 3rd rail, and put a reasonably conductive thing between 3rd rail and ground. At only 600V, it won't jump very far, but if this guy had wet fur and the ground is soaked with rain, would you think this guy would have gotten fried?
I guess specifically I am interested in knowing to what extent rain increases 3rd rail risk. Like if it is REALLY dry in Kansas or something, and you are bare feet on ballast, because ballast is an insulator then you shouldn't get a shock if you touched some lowish voltage (100V or so)? So what about when it's wet but you have rubber boots on, and touch some low voltage?
Not that I would try any of this under any weather conditions, but there is an old wives tale that say you are more likely to get electrocuted in rain; just wondering how true that really is.
Yes, moisture plays a big role. With dry skin, most people could
touch each side of a car battery with each hand and feel nothing.
Yet if the hands are sweaty, that could produce a very uncomfortable
shock.
Rubber boots are good insulators, as long as there isn't a path
of conductive moisture from the skin to the surface, or cracks
in the insulation.
Ballast also varies. If it's relatively recently quarried limestone, that's almost as good as ceramic insulator. SHALE on the other hand is porous and actually contains some petroleum in it. And being porous will also have some groundwater in it. If you're familiar with "brown-stained track ballast" that's been there since the days when train toilets were a funnel that empties straight onto the ballast. Ewwwww! Heh. Now get THAT a little moist and you might as well be knee deep in salt water mud. So as you can see, conditions vary.
A SMALL animal passing under a third rail will have FAR less "surface area contact" with "ground" and if it's walking on dry ballast with next to no leakage current possibility, then it's safe. Add a few impurities or moisture and you'll hear the little critter go off like a cherry bomb in a puff of smoke. :)
What you said is also a big principle in getting hit by lightening. A lot of the time people who get hit by lightening, and a big reason not to stand near trees(amoung 2 other reasons) is this:
lightening goes from cloud-ground
through ground
up you're leg, and down the other leg completeing a circut.
I have a theory if you stood on one leg, on the ground or the 3rd rail like a flamengo you would be fine. But I haven't had a chance to test this out.
I think the #1 reason not to stand under a tree during a lightning
storm is that the tree is very likely to get hit, and if it does,
you are very likely to be injured from the secondary effects
of that strike. One of those effects is mechanical: fallen tree
limbs, etc.
Another thing to consider is you can be electrically injured when
lightning strikes nearby, even if it doesn't hit you directly.
The discharge is on the order of 50,000 amps. The ground is far
from a perfect conductor. When the current enters the soil, it
radiates try to find its way back to 0 potential. This can create
large local voltage gradients which could cause burns or shock.
When lightning strikes a tree, most of the current goes through the roots into the ground. Because we're talking megavolts typically, the distance between your two feet can often be a voltage drop of SEVERAL hundred volts through the ground between your feet. This can result in electrocution. (In addition to the possibility of the core of the tree splitting open and falling on you)
In situations of downed "hot" power lines, SAME THING. An 18kV line down and "hot" can also result in several hundred volts of current between your legs through the earth. And in fact, in fire training, you're advised NOT to apply water as long as the voltage is active even if there's a brush fire, and to stay far away from the downed wires not so much because they might "jump" as it is the ground currents.
You're TRAINED that if you should FIND yourself in such a situation, try to keep your feet as CLOSE together as possible and DON'T fall down. BUNNY-HOP on one leg if at all possible until you're away from the electrified area. But that's the reason for that rule. And it's QUITE real. I've seen and experienced it personally.
Now, the only time I've been in lighting trouble in Brooklyn is during a walk or jog in Prospect Park, when a storm came up suddenly. Those are basically the three options -- you are either under or near a tree, or out in the meadow standing up, or out in the meadow sitting or lying down. Aside from not going to the park when there is a chance of thunderstorms, what DO you do?
But the last place you want to be is near a tree. Remember a storm last year, where they reported almost a dozen cows laying under a tree(which is their big activity) getting fried. Lightening also bounces off of stuff if you're too close. And don't be in a field. I guess if you see a storm coming, you best find some mud and build a little adobe house or to run for it.
Also when the tree gets hit the water inside boils and causes part of the tree to pretty much explode. People have been seriously injured from pieces of tree flying after being hit by lightning.
OR, you can do like the priest in "Caddyshack" ... raise your golf club into the air, start waving it and curse the Deity. Your choice. :)
But the raincoats work great in my experience, once i tried them, i can't turn back.
FYI: you can stand on top of the third rail, with your bare feet touching the rail, and not get electrocuted. Just make damn sure not to touch anything else at the same time, or else' you'll be buggered faster'n a railfan at Rikers...
Now if you stand with one leg on a riding rail and the other foot on the third rail, you won't be having kids for a while. Probably ever.
Jump.
And land elsewhere.
Would that not electricute you?
I thought the 3rd rail can melt eggs so why not anything else?
If you stand on the rail, then jump and land, say, on one of the riding rails you'd be just fine, as long as you don't touch them both at the same time. Similarly, if you unplug a lamp, then touch the prongs on the plug, you won't get a shock.
3.1 Q: Why doesn't the third rail short out when it gets wet or rained on?
A: When I originally answered this one, I said:
Well, this is really a question for an engineer and I'm an urban planner, so I'll do my best. Basically, water can only make something short out if something else is grounding that object. Because the various places where the third rail is connected to something else (i.e. the ground, a power source, etc.) are insulated, there's nothing to cause a short. The only way it could short out as a result of water is if it were completely submerged and thus the water were touching something else at the same time or if it similarly acted as a conduit between the third rail and another object (like, say, a person).
Well, it turns out this was only a half truth. Retired-CTA® worker Peter A. Christy (Badge #23234) sent me this far better explanation:
In one sense your answer is correct but, in fact, the third rail does "see" a low grade "short" when it rains. I worked on the West Side "L"TM as Motorman, Conductor, Towerman and Flagman for several years before moving on to more technical careers.
As you are aware, the third rail sits on ceramic insulators that are mounted on non-conducting dowels. The dowels are often mounted into the wooden cross ties (and wood is also non-conducting, when dry). As you've undoubtedly noticed, most of the area along the track is covered with grime and rust. Much of this material is from metal dust that is due to friction between the rails and wheels as trains pass. The surface of the ceramic insulators (a.k.a. "chairs") are well coated with a film of this dirt, as are the dowels and cross ties. When dry, the rust particles are not very good conductors of electricity, and there isn't enough fresh metal dust to conduct a lot of electricity, either.
Up on the "L"TM‚ structure, when conditions are dry, the third rail is not particularly hazardous. While acting as a Flagman for Carpenter crews replacing ties or sections of the wooden catwalk that runs between the tracks, I've actually witnessed carpenters who would SIT on the third rail while pounding nails! (If working at ground level, however, the same crewmen would avoid the third rail like it was a cobra.) The interesting thing is, that if the weather was threatening, as soon as the first few raindrops fell, the foreman would call it quits, the crew would drop everything, and we'd all hightail it for the nearest station.
The way it was explained to me is that when the coating of metal dust and rust gets wet, it becomes more conductive and there is a significant amount of current leakage between the third rail, over and through the dirt covered wood, and into the steel of the "L"TM‚ structure. To put it another way, there actually is a low grade short, all along the track. And if you are walking near the third rail, your footsteps may compress this slightly conductive grime so it conducts better, and you can get shocked. Of course, if you actually brushed against the third rail, under those conditions, it'd probably be fatal. If the right-of-way is at ground level, the situation is more hazardous because there is no layer of wood between you and the earth.
One of the Supervisors told me you can actually see the leakage on the instruments at the power substations. He said it looks the same as if there are one or more trains running in a section that is actually unoccupied and, if it rains really hard, the film of dirt is washed off of the insulators so the amount of leakage (lost power) goes down.
Obviously the reason why none of this is evident to the casual observer is that the short, or leakage, is spread over a large area. Picture the volume of water that comes out of the nozzle of a high pressure fire hose (call it X cubic feet per minute) and spread it out so the stream is three hundred feet wide, instead of three inches wide. You would have the same volume of water moving, in both cases, but in the case of the 3" nozzle it has so much force that it can blast holes through a plasterboard wall, while in the other case it might appear as a slowly moving 1/8th inch film of water.
The Chicago El is very cheeply constructed and uses very crappy insulators that lack these folds and grooves so they get a lot of leakage with it rains.
In the case of the squirrel a number of factors including the low voltage nature of the third rail, the dry ground, the squirrel's fur, the clearance b/t the squirrel and the rail, etc, also disqualified it from creating an acceptable path to ground. I have seen rabbits go under the third rail so I sometimes just what it takes to get an animal zapped.
On another note, the maintainence guys down at Baltimore Penn told me that it is not to uncommon for Pidgeons and squirrels to get blown up on the catenary. Squirrels are long enough that if they run accross one of the insulators they'll create a path to ground. Pidgeons sometimes meet another pidegon at an insulator and they do a little "kiss" accross it and also get fried. The guys said that the current is so strong that the pidgeons litterally explode...said it sounds like a gunshot.
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/newyork/politics/nyc-terr0610,0,2763219.story?coll=nyc-manheadlines-politics
1) Call downtown via our alarm system.
2) Put on the mask that should be in every booth.
3) Hightail it out of the station and take as many with you still standing as possible.
Henceforth, it shall be called the "Theodore Roosevelt Regional Airport"
: ) Elias
Oh! Ok, that explains it.
Elias
To tell you the truth, I hadn't really come up with a good explanation. I just considered this whole renaming business thing so off-SubTalk that I decided to just go along with it. But yours is an explanation that will do... ;-)
Huh? what connection has Billy C with Newark?
Teddy Roosevelt was a big North Dakota figure, having his ranch here and spending a lot of his time here. The Theodore Roosevelt National Park is here. (As is the "Bully Pulpit Golf Course".... wierd isn't it?)
Elias
Am I right (to get sort of back on topic) in thinking that Teddy Roosevelt is the only US president who was actually born in New York City?
Correct.
East Midlands Airport is now officially Nottingham East Midlands Airport - never mind that it is in Leicestershire, it has a Derby postcode and phone code, and its railheads are Loughborough (which is in Leicestershire) and Long Eaton (which is in Derbyshire)! Apparently its business was being hit because no-one knew where it was. But then, such is the general ignorance of geography these days, no-one knows where Nottingham is either (8-) .....
Sure they do...it's near Sherwood Forest, where Robin hangs out....< BG >
And Idlewild was renamed.
LOL
Just kidding John
What about Carter? It might be hard to find an airport to name after him, Atlanta's the nearest big city, and the location of his library, but ATL recently got renamed for Maynard Jackson.
Gerald Ford's already gotten an airport, in Grand Rapids.
(quote from Bob Barr when he required WMATA to rename the National Airport station)
Its formal name is Hartsfield - Jackson Atlanta International Airport. Quite a mouthful.
Its right here.
I seem to forget the lion when I make a new post.
: (
Actually, Like Teddy Roosevelt, I was born in New York City, and grew up on Long Island.
Elias
Your pal,
Fred
No. The airport was built in 1932 when Reagan was only about 20 years old and had nothing to do with politics. It was renamed because a Reagan fanatic, Bob Barr (former Republical GA representative to Congress who was so disliked the Republicans in Georgia redrew his district to get rid of him) decided that there needed to be something in every state or county named after Reagan.
Ronald Reagan - Aircraft Carrier - in commission
Jimmy Carter - Submarine - not sure of status
George H. Bush - Aircraft Carrier - Under Construction
Gerald Ford - Not sure - but i know he was an officer on the carrier Monterrey in WW 2
the current pres is Geo. W. Bush
About the only kind thing you can say about Regan National Airport is that the man himself didn’t have anything to say about it, being close to Altzheimer’s at the time.
Reagan raised the stakes in the international game of poker that the Cold War represented. The Soviet Bloc didn’t have the money to raise the ante and so they folded.
I believe that the Soviet Union was more a hegemony than a union. When the strong influence from the center faded, so the Union split apart.
Unlike the United States where, despite odd secessionist rumblings, a large majority of the citizens believe in the benefits of union.
I am extremely disappointed in your response. I can assure you that my nuts are anything but numb.
I believe that the tradition in US public buildings and works is not to name anything after living people. When they have passed away and history has enabled us to have a reasonable perspective on their contributions is an appropriate time to decide what to name after whom. That we have two airports named after (at the time) living ex-presidents I believe is a mistake, hence the sarcasm.
All joking aside, you really should look at the dedications to Bush Sr (and Barbara) in the Houston Airport. I have a neutral opinion of the man (actually going up based on the euology he gave at Reagan’s funeral) but the pictures and text in the airport displays are glurge of the first order.
I would also commend to you some critical thinking insofar as our national leaders go. I believe, from reading your posts, you confuse the private and public personas. Bill Clinton, during the time he was president, had an execrable private life but he knew what he was about.*** The current president, unfortunately, doesn’t appear to understand the nuances of government and the world stage–even though his private behaviour appears to have been exemplary.
Who is the better man? I don’t know, it depends on the characteristics you as an individual deem important in your metric. What I would urge is not the unthinking “Republicans are right”, “Democrats are wrong” (or vice-versa) rhetoric. Judge each policy and action on its merits regardless of who proposed or sanctioned it–or whether it provides a short-term personal benefit for you. Become a real critic.
Think.
Ford also.
My objection though is creating monuments to LIVING presidents. That point is NOW moot.
The same thing used to happen in the former Soviet Union, with places being re-named, money changed, and statues and paintings placed all over the country after a guy named Stalin.
Yes, but it must be remembered that Lyndon B. Johnson's Civil Rights legislation was a Kennedy project also (although had it not been for Kennedy's death and virtual canonisation, it may have faced a little more trouble getting through Congress). In terms of foreign policy, there was also that little incident in a porcine bay somewhere...
We also got Vietnam from Kennedy and a hint of the Clinton Years with his sexual escapades.
Vietnam only really got blown out of all proportion under Johnson. A memo from Kennedy's aide Sorenson, dated April 1963, suggests very much that Kennedy was fed up with the South Vietnamese government and was inclined to leave them to fend for themselves at the earliest possible opportunity which wouldn't leave America with egg on her face.
As far as sexual indiscretions go, Clinton showed quite how much these don't matter if you have public support. The only time at which they become significant is if the government is already unpopular and you want more mud to fling at them.
And, by the way, I still like JFK and have a bust of him on my desk. But truth is truth.
I detest the way that JFK has been made into some saint or other: he obviously wasn't; he was a politician. However, I would steer well clear of the Kennedy-bashers revisionist views. He deserves credit where it is due, just like any other man. Finally, I cannot say whether I like him: I never met him.
Idlewild Airport was renamed for Kennedy after his assassination. I see nothing wrong with that and similar honors. What is more dubious is the practice of naming airports after living ex-presidents.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Not to the airport, but Dickinson was a major division point on the BN.
Now that they have gone from 100 mile to 200 mile division points, it is no longer a division point, but about 20 - 30 trains pass and or stop there every day. Unit Coal East, Unit Hoppers West, and a number of Grain trains in either direction. There is some local freight, and occasional a lost goods train. Most goods trains run on the old GN tracks through Minot. Our Lion has mostly the slower coal drags.
AMTK runs the GN lion.
Elias
At that airport you would be lucky to get a horse and buggy!
If you want a taxi, you will have to call one, and wait a half an hour at least for one to come out.
OTH: If you book for the morning flight (like there's more than one flight???) there is no need to read this trash about arriving two hours early. The FBO only arrives about 20 minutes before flight time.
: ) Elias
Last night three were available at 34th St/Penn Stn IRT MVMs.
Have seen the same Station Agent in the booth, he's one of a kind !
I think he enjoys his job way too much.
I found the promotion flyer near the MVMs selling the MCs
What's left is two batters: one batting left, one batting right.
At 6:15 PM last night, I was waiting for a Brooklyn bound A/C train at Broadway-Nassau station. A woman loses her purse wallet to the roadbed at the same side I need. The location was nearest to the 4/5 side, so you have the curve right there where the T/O can't see until he reaches the station. One of the bongoi drummers actually went down to the roadbed and retrieved the wallet back to the woman. The man got out of the tracks safely before a C train pulled in 2 minutes later. If I decided to flip out my cell phone camcorder, I sure would lose it to an angry mob, while I was recording this possible tragedy.
I was lucky not ever to see my first 12-9, and I hope I never ever will in my lifetime. However, is a strangers wallet more important than your precious life? Look at the woman and her cell phone at Grand Ave/Newton/IND station in Queens.
-Chris
Given that the man regularly perform there, didn't it occur to you that he may know the schedules/headways/sight-and-sounds that would predict when the next train would come? For example, here at Kendall, I can hear a train coming at me some 30 seconds in advance. Just enough to get clear.
Personally, I would never do that kind of thing, but maybe he had more information to go by than you imagined. Maybe he wasn't stupid, he was just more willing to take risks than you and had better information.
This kind of behaviour should not be encouraged, but on the other hand I am sure it happens all the time and very few actually result in 12-9's.
AEM7
Interesting expression. I presume it means "hit my mouth" or something along those lines, as an expression of shock and amazement?
The bongo dude probably figured he was physically capable of hoppng back on the platform quickly if a train came, in other words he was taking a calcuated risk. Of course, what he did was still a bad idea, not to mention illegal.
Just chalk it up to a near Kodak moment.
I'm actually surprised that the girl at Grand Avenue couldn't make it up to the platform. Even if she wasn't very athletic, I would think that the adrenaline rush of being in such a life-or-death situation should have been enough.
But it is *MUCH* higher than you think.
And adrenaline or not, you cannot do what you cannot do.
Elias
Easy way to find out for yourself: stand at the lineside on the above-ground portion, and look at where the train doors are. They are usually just below eye-level for average height people (about 5 ft 6 ins tall). If you can jump up a 4 ft step, you can hop on to the platform from trackbed.
A considerable number of people cannot jump up a 4 ft step. Large athletic men usually can. I don't know if I can or cannot, have never tried. Good comparison would be: if you can pull yourself up to the top bunk of a bunk bed without using the stairs, then you can probably do it.
I doubt if any human being could jump up onto a 4-foot step or platform without a running start. Getting onto a subway platform from the trackbed almost certainly would require the use of the arms. You'd probably be best off putting your hands on the platform, jumping as high as you can, and using your hands to push your body up sort of like you're in the upward part of a dip ... considering that probably 85% of men and 99+% of women are incapable of doing a single unassisted dip, you'd probably need a good jump to have any chance of getting back up. Guess it is a lot harder than one would think.
Agreed. That's a bad spot.
Try not to touch any shoes while you are down there.
Can't magically fall onto subway tracks.
Disadvantage - makes sneaking up on anyone to scare/mug/kill them darn near impossible :(
Sheesh, you had to go THAT FAR Sgt. Rosen. :-). You forgot, I have a video camera inside my phone right now. Though I still would never retrieve anything like that, just to try engage in an off-topic matter with another woman.
The reason I ask - a few days ago, I was waiting for the B at 72nd st. It was about 9:40pm. I figured I could still catch one, but none came. How do you know when the last train has already ran?
And furthermore, does anyone know the reason why the B only runs until 9:30 during the week? This is very frustrating sometimes!
~W
If you were reading a sign in the station, then it was probably correct for that station only.
If you were looking at the map, you may preseume that those are "Times Approximate." (whatever *that* means)
If you downloaded the schedule from the internet, then you have got the best possible information, not, that as you have found out, that the information is very good.
If I saw a sign that said the train ran from 0630 to 2130, and it was after say 2100, I'd be thinking of other routes that might get me there, just as an option, you know.
If I were waiting say on 6th Avenue, and a (D) came in first, I just might take it to Pacific Street and then walk over to the Brighton Lion to see what came in next.
Actually, if it was 2130, I'd probably be at home, getting ready for bed anyway.
: ) Elias
The Lion *is* there: don't you see him. He is on this page too. (I made a new one) If it's not working let me know, and I'll reset my server. But I have no trouble seeing him.
Elias
The last northbound B leaves 59th Street at 9:22pm. The last southbound B leaves 59th Street at 9:10pm. You missed it by a half hour.
When in doubt, check the schedules.
When you see the times on the platform sign, those signs are specific to the station and track you wait near.
When you see the times on the map, they are approximate. So if you don't have a specific timetable or platform sign to tell you, but you're within one hour or so of "opening" or "closing" time for a particular route or section of a route, do not depend on it.
When you see the times on the timetable, they are exact, but if the last train is scheduled at your station at a specific minute and you get there at that specific minute, and nothing comes after six or seven minutes, it probably came a minute early and you should go for another route.
BOS-WAS #95 06-11 $89.00
BOS-WAS #95 07-01 $89.00
BOS-WAS #67 07-01 $89.00
BOS-WAS #147 09-01 $89.00
BOS-WAS #95 09-01 $89.00
I am shocked... Gunn has undone years of work in the Revenue department!! Now, I don't know if it is for better or for worst, but hell, I know that I won't be travelling by Amtrak from Boston to Washington if it is going to cost $89 a pop... last summer, I was able to make that very same run for about $60!
AEM7
If you say bus, well fine, price can trump convenience and comfort if you're short of money.
But if you say anything else, except multiple riders in a prviate car, then it's not really the money that's an issue.
Stay in Boston.
If you say bus, well fine, price can trump convenience and comfort if you're short of money.
I'd never ride the bus to Washington... the train is too convenient, and too much in my religion.
Amtrak used to be OK to joyride in -- you know, like pay your $60 fare, go overnight to Washington, look around for a day or visit a friend, come back the same night to Boston. Same with New York. It would be worth it at $120 round trip. At $180 round trip, that's a 50% increase in price... and it also means that I am unlikely to visit Washington unless forced there by business or when someone else is paying my expenses. You can have a much better time driving around New Hampshire in a rental car for $80.
AEM7
NEW YORK -- Pop princess Britney Spears injured her knee during a video shoot in Queens and was hospitalized for arthroscopic surgery, her record label said Wednesday. Spears, 22, was rushed to a hospital after hurting herself late Tuesday, Jive Records said in a statement. An MRI scan revealed floating cartilage in her knee.
The injury occurred after Spears completed scenes for the video of her new single, "Outrageous," with rapper Snoop Dogg under the L train line on Roosevelt Avenue. Spears was doing choreography when her knee gave out, Jive said.
"Outrageous" will be featured in the movie "Catwoman," due out next month.
Spears is scheduled to begin a North American tour June 22 in Hartford, Conn., according to her Web site. Her latest album, "In the Zone," was released in November.
Spears was forced to cancel two shows in March because of a knee injury.
Can't WNBC 4 tell the difference between the L train and the 7 train? The Daily News did get it right.
1 - Broadway "L"
2/5 - White Plains Road/Westchester Ave south "L"
4 - Jerome Ave/River Ave "L"
6 - Westchester Ave north "L"
7 line - Queens Blvd/Roosevelt Ave "L"
A - Liberty Ave El./Rockaways "L"
J/Z - Broadway/Fulton St/Jamaica Ave "L"
L - Van Sinderen "L"
M - Myrtle Ave "L" (also see D below)
N/W - 31st Street "L"
D/M - New Utrecht Ave/86th Street/Stillwell Ave "L"
B/Q - East 16th Street embankment/"L"
F - McDonald Ave/Shell Road "L"
Oh and lets not forget the LIRR Atlantic Ave "L".
After leaving Bushwick-Aberdeen, it becomes elevated to Livonia Ave.
Leaving Livonia, it becomes embankment briefly, then at grade once it reaches East 105th st (there was a grade crossing just north of the current station.) Then it runs at grade to Rockaway Parkway, with the Canarsie yard alongside the main line.
But in Chicago all elevated are called "L".
"doing choreography under the L Train line on Roosevelt Avenue in Manhattan..."
NOOOOOOO. She's perfect already! There was something stupid in the news a few weeks ago about her busting her knee onstage, and she was carried off crying, while the music she lipsyncs to was still playing.
Heh, I thought I was one of the very few people who actually liked that movie. I never quite understood why so many people thought it stank.
Now she can spend some more time riding her skanky boyfriend's tool, instead of the 7.
-Chris
Maybe she was on her knees doing something else...
Out here in San Francisco(some of you may know), Muni Metro Breda LRV's have fareboxs inside
the operator's cab.
Does that mean the LIRR is not running for 3 hours also? There is nothing in the MTA advisory that states it. If they are running, how are you going to buy tickets, since machines are dependent on electricity?
When did I hear this? Got a link?
Anyhow, I was just on an LIRR train and while we went agonizingly slow at times, it was nothing out of the ordinary.
My correction, it was to reduce non-essential power during today's 3 hour drill.
Your pal,
Fred
David
David
wayne
So, I am putting it to you all, where would you envision the secret train boarding area in the NYC area...it can be either on a transit or railroad line. For extra credit you can suggest where the secret train would take you.
I think that the train would leave from the already somewhat magical Platform H at Newark Penn. While thousands of people arrive on that platform every day...nobody ever uses Platfrom H to depart so as a secret departure station it would be great. I don't even think that most people know what Platform H is or how they would ever get to it.
The obvious answer is 76th Street!
1. in the tunnel at the east end of the GCT shuttle platform
2. other side of the wall at 63/Lex
3. Woodhaven Blvd LIRR
4. IND Mezzanine between 34 St-Herald Sq and 42 Street-Bryant Park
5. Inside the loop at GCT
6. W4 Street middle level
7. Abandoned section of DeKalb Av platform
8. In the thin air where the other half of Queensboro Plaza used to be
The lower level of the Canal BMT used to have a certain mystique to it back when Manny south was closed, but now it's back to its old non-mysterious self...
How about Track 18½ at Penn Station.
now for answer to your question: did none of you know about the supersekret platform at grand central, where the president (of the united states, and of new york central) would travel on their special trains in and out of nyc?
Whether or not *you* like the books, you can't deny that an awful lot of people do like them, as evidenced by their massive sales. They are a bit derivative, but to create books that are derivative of *both* Tolkien and Billy Bunter was quite imaginative in itself! It isn't obligatory for all literature to have sex in it. J.K. Rowling wrote the books because she was a single parent needing to earn a living. And since when was a person whose partner is an *adult* younger than themselves classified as a pedophile?
hehe... I am sorry. Sometimes threads on here really gets me riled up. I assure you, this is not a "I hate people for having done more than I have;" it's more of a "I lament the state of affairs."
Whether or not *you* like the books, you can't deny that an awful lot of people do like them, as evidenced by their massive sales.
I do not even recall why I disliked J.K.Rowling. Since I do not read and am illiterate, I don't even know what is good or bad about the Harry Potter books. All I remember was that when I was living in Edinburgh, there are many people who were Harry Potter fans, and people would stake out the streets just so they can get a glance of J.K.Rowling. I think I actually dislike the mob crowd that chases after her more than the writer herself. I just see no need to idolize anybody, and I feel that anyone who allows themselves to be idolized is partly to blame.
Maybe I'm just an Eeyore.
Now I love Winnie the Pooh, but I do not go stake out A.A.Milne's gravestone.
I found the Potter books wonderfully readable, but on the other hand had no luck at all trying to read Tolkien.
It isn't obligatory for all literature to have sex in it. J.K. Rowling wrote the books because she was a single parent needing to earn a living. And since when was a person whose partner is an *adult* younger than themselves classified as a pedophile?
If the gender roles were reversed - a 40ish man dating a woman in her early 20's - nobody would think twice about it. And certainly no one would be using the "p" word.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Ever hear the phrase "there's no fool like an old fool"?
But part of this reflects our social construct. It's OK for daughters to be attached to their daddies, even after marriage, but not a son his mother. In terms of dating, a woman with an older man is not accused of dating her father, but a man dating a significantly older woman is likely to be derided for looking for his mother. Some things have not changed through the so-called social revolutions of the last 40-odd years.
While I'm at it, another old phrase: "Your son is your son until he takes a wife, but your daughter's your daughter for the rest of your life."
She is now, thanks to the success of her writing. And I don't begrudge her one penny of her wealth - unlike most billionaires, she got her money by her own efforts, without exploiting or impoverishing anyone else on the process. Every person who contributed to her wealth did so by buying a book, or going to a movie, because they wanted to, because they got pleasure from her work.
Will she be a durable writer? I can't say, but other non-famous writers produced some real clunkers. Take Dickens. I've been re-reading a few of his classics. Great Expectations (written late in his career) is tight, suspenseful, with interesting characters and plot lines well sown together by the end. But Oliver Twist, written early in his career? See the movies better. He was paid by the installment and it shows. The parts with Fagin, the Artful Dodger and so are great, but there are long chapters of filler, in which Oliver, the world's most innocent (not so say clueless) street kids, gets into a scrape, is "adopted" by a rich patron, does on an innocent mission, gets into a scrape, is "adopted" by a rich patron ... and on ... and on.
So every "great" writer has not burst on the world with angels singing.
Oh yeah, a magical trip to the PATH relay tracks at Newark Penn, THAT'd be REAL fun...
Start searching for it gang - its there somewhere...
BTW - not to get techinical but the Spanish version of the Bronx Expansion card is 5a.
So, the MVMs need MC stock, and that's what at the warehouse.
Maybe that 4th JFK Air Train card will come out, lets hope.
R-32.
The MTA is issuing a series of Metrocards commemorating the 100th Anniversary of the opening of the first NYC Subway line.
See here: http://www.mta.info/nyct/cen/metrocards.htm
and http://www.mta.info/nyct/cen/pdf/metrocards.pdf
We identify each card by a number as well as the name (if you right click and do a save as on the image you will see the number we are referring to).
Confess David, your cover is blown.
R-32.
I was with my friend (and if he wants to reveal himself here, he is welcome to) earlier this evening at 14th Street-Union Square at the front of the southbound N/R/Q/W platform. He had a manilla envelope with him which contained important documents containing his full name, address, DOB, social security #, utility bill, and the list goes on. Stuff that if found could be used to make a nice little shopping spree for some scumbag. Anyways, we had just missed a local train and as the local train was leaving, a northbound train was coming in on the other side. The combination of these two generated a pretty big draft/breeze and my friend lost his grip on the manilla envelope and it fell to the trackbed. It landed between the platform and the closest running rail. We were thinking of what to do until another train came in. After this train came in, and then left, the envelope was gone. It was probably carried along a short distance out of the station. We could no longer see it though. We proceeded to walk to the back of the platform to take the next RFW-equipped train and look out the back to see if we could spot where it was to tell the station agent/track worker that we would notify as the next step where to look. We couldn't really see anything too clearly so we crossed over and went back to Union Square. My friend then went to the token booth and explained the situation to the S/A. This one OF COURSE felt like doing the bare minimum of his job and told my friend basically to fuck off because it's gone. He didn't even bother to call anyone. Now we were smart enough to just turn away as it didn't really have any value in the form of $$. But if someone dropped something that had a lot of $$ value to them, then it would probably be viewed differently in that person's eyes. The S/A would still be a lazy POS and not do anything, though the passenger would likely go back downstairs, go to the trackbed, and search for it on their own. If they got hit, 12-9, and some SubTalk dufus would make yet again another Darwin Award post to this messageboard. So before any of you think of doing it again, think about this: It isn't always fully the passenger's fault much like you want it to be.
You story doesn't prove that a person is justified to go down to retrieve an item, and I don't buy the BS that if its of value, its not the fault of the person retrieving the item should they become the victim of a 12-9.
He had really good sense in not going down to the trackbed.
If he'd gone down to the trackbed his luck could have gotten a whole lot worse.
But getting back to the S/A problem, maybe you could tell the S/A "if you don't call this in I'm going to go down on the tracks and get it myself." If you can do this convincingly enough, I can't see how the S/A would not wise up fast.
No one has written back. I believe the S/A's are essentially on a continuing sit-down strike and know they can't be touched.
Wow! Is that like a million zillion dollars?
So you're life is worth only $500? Wait till your old enough to join see that $500 don't mean squat compared to a human life.
What you and your friend did first of all was a wise thing to value your lives more so than papers. Yes they were important, yes they were vital, yes no one wants some scumbag thief to get it and steal your friends' identity. But the decision to risk lives by retrieving something that can be replaced does not take in account of the train operator. He or she operates their train. They have their obligation to transport passengers safely. They see someone on the roadbed retrieving a cell phone or manila envelope. What happens? The T/O tries to apply into BIE mode quickly enough but is too late and the person on the roadbed is crushed to death, another 12-9 in the system.
Now here's what happens after the accident. NYCT will try to blame the T/O for not stopping the train in time, and will make every effort to can the person if it can be proven. The T/O? Well psychologically he/she is really messed up, having nightmares about the accident, can't function at optimum levels (like driving or even watching TV), and all this trauma, is only allowed 3 days leave. I am not sure what the new union contract entails from last year, but it's clearly not in the favor of the T/O. A police officer experiencing shock and trauma is allowed unlimited days leave, but a T/O is only allowed 3 days. Train Operators are part of this great subway system, we need to respect them too. And the media rarely reports on the mental challenges they must confront to their lives after seeing a 12-9 up close.
And what about the customers? If it happened on the L line in Manhattan at 5 PM, you are talking about incoveniencing 50,000 to 100,000 customers alone on the evening rush. All it takes is one person disrupting thousands of people, they have to get home too. They have families too (Honestly I do have a life too and I want to get home to my family too.). If you are talking about a 12-9 on the Lex, forget it. What if power to the 3rd rail has to be turned off for even 30 minutes on the 4/5/6 at 8 AM or 5 PM in the height of rush hour? Then these same customers that are detoured from an dumb 12-9 will blame NYCT for screwing up the system, when it's not their fault.
It's your view, and in some ways you have valid points. But we have to look at all angles on this controversial issue and ponder the other side of the coin too. Just something to think about.
Station Agents are obligated to call it in. It can take up to 2 hours for a specific person (they have a group of people whose job is just that! and they are based at DeKalb/Flatbush Aves station) to arrive to retrieve the object. During rush hours a customer is out of luck. If customer is not there when the item is retrieved item is given to the booth to be turned in as lost property. Only certain booths have lost property bags and if a booth has no lost property bag the item is delivered to a booth that has a bag. From there, bags are picked up by Revenue and taken to the Lost Property Office at 34th st/8th Ave station. As you also know, any item left on your train, go to booth and give train car number, time and direction of travel (ie to 71, to Stillwell, etc.). to the booth. The S/A will activate the emergency alarm and a supervisor will call RTO to advise the train crew to look for the package which if found will be left at the
dispatcher's office at a terminal. Note customers cannot enter tracks. Check with the booth and they will call the dispatcher who will send someone to the booth with the package or escort the person.
In the case of the booth at 14th st/Union Square, did you record the booth number and badge number? You should report this to Customer Service or email to the MTA web site as a complaint and follow up. Station agents must comply with a customers legal request and follow all NYCT rules. What the S/A did to you was a rule violation(s) that does warrant disciplinary action.
BTW: I got there very late (about 11 pM), tried one run with no luck. However, in the interest of your security, I did not ask the S/A of any followup regarding you lost item. There is also Transit Police District #4 right there (remember June 6th anti-photo ban?), did you file a lost property report inside there?
In Boston, station agents can get an inspector to come out and retrieve the said item. Besides administrative reasons, there aren't really any reason why this could not be done on the MTA.
Yes it has service impacts, especially when the said item could not be found quickly. Had an official been on the platform when the envelope was dropped and before it blew away, the oncoming train would have been stopped and the envelope retrieved and it would never had disappeared down the tunnel. Total service impact would have been about 2 mins. Now if you think bunching is a problem, it's not like NYCTA's lines aren't chronically bunched anyway.
AEM7
-Julian
paul
David
things are different now. in general transit authorities have no interest in hiring anyone who might stir up the pot a little -- whether this be changes in operating practices, efficiency drive, or just a new way of looking at things. the best entry to a transit career is through one of the trades: electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, civil engineering, operator, and god forbid token clerk.
college interns today joining a transit authority tend to get filed under one of the planning or engineering disciplines. planning is mostly a matter of kissing the butts of politicians, and engineering requires you to sit and calculate signal distances for 2-3 years before they will give you a serious job. if either of the career sound like fun to you, keep going. i am -- on a good day.
aem7
Last year, I sent my resume to a number of different people/authorities, only one offered me anything.
thanks for your insight, much appreciated. however you do have to bear in mind that you were low-risk as far as they were concerned, because you weren't coming to stay; you were coming to intern and then you were gonna move on. transit joints look at you very differently when you adopt a 'here to stay' outlook, particularly if you were a college grad in search of a serious job. they just don't need someone who is serious about a transit career -- because if they hired someone like that, things might become a little bit stressed out as people try to get the service to improve.
i have worked for 3 transit authorities/rail carriers in my entire life -- and in one of them, they put me in a cubicle running reports on computer schedules; a high school graduate could have done that better than i could. in another they could not find an open position after my contract expired, well, because the department i worked in (strategic planning) was eliminated and merged with another one (marketing). in a third, like i just said, i got to run around with measuring wheels and had a lot of fun, but it was just that: taxpayer subsidized fun -- not taxpayer subsidized service improvements.
think what you like about my effectiveness in getting things done, but i've been in a number of industries and i haven't ever had to fight this hard to get shit done. when i say a number of industries, those include freight railroading.
aem7
Problem with most transit agencies in north america is that they are not properly funded and have an adgenda to hold the line when it comes to providing service. Hiring fresh faced kids who still beleive that they can make a difference is not in their interest.
Actually the good money is in working for a transportation consulting firm. Designing potential rail and bus facilities is also rewarding as there is less pressure to conform to the whims of politicos and top brass.
But consluting is for scumbags. I know this. I am a conslutant. There is good money, but it isn't earned money. It's money that we blagg off government entities because allegedly I have the expertise and they don't. If you like, it's 'rental' income on my degree. I am such a slut. I prostitute away my time by the hour. And most of the time I don't even mean what I say.
I regularly shop myself out to government entities (not my consluting clients -- that would be a conflict of interest) to see if anyone would hire someone in house to do the work that they normally prostitute out to conslutants. No one is buying, even at 70% of what I am currently getting paid for. That's right. I will take a 30% paycut to go work for a DOT or a transit authority. No one is buying. But similar people will willingly prostitute my time at 200% of the rates (including overhead), except that when under contract they can tell me to go away anytime they don't like my responses, derived from hard analysis of harsh realities.
Do most interns plan to sytay on with the TA? I have to beleive that it makes for good resume filler material, but after doing mindless jobs with civil servants for several months the transport manager to be will want to see what else is out there.
I know what you mean. Except this is the wrong attitude w.r.t. being a civil servant. Civil servant are there to serve the public interest (however that is defined) and it is a job that is far from mindless. It can be mindless, if one doesn't care; then one shouldn't be a civil servant.
When I was working for a public transit agency, I found that most people were working really hard to do what they can. They are just unable to do everything. There were people whose titles clearly do not match their job descriptions (e.g. I knew of a superintendent whose nature of work was more akin to that of a secretary), but on the other hand so long as they get things done, it's OK. The head office was so short on resources that they were hiring people into "management" positions because they could not "justify" hiring a secretary to perform the necessary admin work. Fat chance they can justify hiring college grads who can actually perform analysis and provide "decision support".
Nexus (the private company that took over the Metro in Newcastle) calls me every few years asking if I would consider puling up my stakes in the US and work for them.. Its tempting.
If you don't have any lasting investment in the U.S. (e.g. a marriage), you probably should -- of course, you might be happy just doing consulting, but I much prefer to have a hands-on role in this world. I suppose, to lead a life that involves public service and earned income. Instead of rental income on my fucking degree.
Problem with most transit agencies in north america is that they are not properly funded and have an adgenda to hold the line when it comes to providing service. Hiring fresh faced kids who still believe that they can make a difference is not in their interest.
Maybe you are right. So I thought privatized British Rail had problems. I guess the problems here are sort of different, but leads to the same results: indifferent staff, total lack of rationality when it comes to service planning and capital planning.
AEM7
If given the choice between working management or consulting, I would except in a few cases consulting. At least in a private consulting firm job performance counts for more than political gamesmeaship.
In Britan, things are worse now than before privatisation, mostly because you've got even more sets of hands to get anything done. Privatisation was a big mistake and the British now realize it. The govenment should have continued to run the system and make improvements. What they (and US Systems) need is strong management that will stand up and fight for better and more service, despite the obstacles in their path. Once this is shown, the public and employee will regain confidence in their product.
The TTC in Toronto was and is still a very good example of a benevolent system, although its being cash starved.
My work has been in three cities with four transit authorities/carriers and perhaps with the exception of under a privatized British Rail subsidary I have found exactly that -- hard-working people trying to cope with budget cuts, political bickering and inadequate skills. I don't know which departments you worked in but I think you have described transit bureaucracy and not transit operations.
In operations, it is very difficult to skate through your job. You might see indifference to customer service but you will not see indifference when it comes to ensuring that the system operated as intended. If train operators were indifferent, shit immediately happens: trains derail, passengers are caught in doors, or on a more subtle level, trains are randomly cancelled because you either can't find the equipment or the crew. My feeling is that most people in operations try really hard, they just get constantly pissed off when the radio don't work, the tools aren't available, or there is not enough staff to tend to every single problems that may arise on a given day. All of those are funding issues. I am guessing the several transit managers on this board will agree with me when I say 'we could really use more funding'.
Let's take a look at Metra, for example. I have never worked for Metra as a direct employee. Many people criticize Metra for their planning staff (or the lack thereof), but my understanding is that Metra is really focusing on what it does -- operating trains, improving revenue, and improving ridership; the lack of a credible capital plan (besides the whole STAR-line thing, which is politically driven,) in a way is a good thing as it means Metra doesn't have all the 'dead-wood' in planning where it is easy to skate through your jobs -- but where doing so will do the greatest harm to the transit agency in the long term. Having people who are involved in operations doing the planning may lead to unimaginative solutions, but that's better than planners that come up with grandiose schemes that are either never funded or a total waste of money when funded because operations hadn't learned how to use the new plant (or didn't want it in the first place.)
At least in a private consulting firm job performance counts for more than political gamesmeaship.
Think so? Think again. I've been on bid teams where we were outbid by 'insiders' who were much less qualified, and I've also gotten jobs because I was an 'insider' and practically made a mockery of the bidding process. The political bickering in a consluting firm is even worse than one at a transit authority -- there are no union rules, and when you have 10 owner-bosses in different factions fighting with each other and you work for three of them all at the same time, you better play your political cards right. Small cozy air-conditioned office is much worse than a factory floor or crew depot for "office politics".
... the rewards are there, so why not reap them if you've paid your dues?
I am. I haven't resigned from my consluting position, even though with these thoughts I probably ought to have. I'm old enough to recognize the realities of my own situation and to have enough sense to keep the paycheck coming in -- but I do really believe, and I will move into a "better" job (that pays less money) as soon as the window of opportunity is open to me. And I am fortunate to have a wonderful girlfriend who is 100% supportive even though she knows that I'm totally passing up on making big bucks in a consulting career that my degree apparently 'entitles' me to. These fucking degrees are almost like Union cards.
You know, I do really appreciate the plethora of useful things I learned while doing my degree. I just don't enjoy the position that a degree-holder occupies in our society.
AEM7
(I've been going to Hunter for my Masters in Urban Planning.)
:-) Andrew
fuck! this was the exact same thing they had me do as an intern at the mbta. i guess that's all they thought we were worth.
yes i am the type to pick up a measuring wheel if i don't have the distance data, but i can't do that forever. there is only one of me and there is lots of interesting data to collect, some can be queried from computer databases and some need a team of checkers to do it (e.g. train running times, or train loads).
until the legislature can pony up some money for some data system to be installed (or even just some people to maintain the data systems that exist, or fix the ones that are broken), a transit planning career will have you out running around with a measuring wheel and not achieve very much other than get very sweaty in the heat.
aem7
I suppose you even might call your job 'surveying', just like all the GIS 'Surveyors', the car counting 'Traffic Surveyors' and the questionaire-dispensing 'People Surveyors'. ALL of them are inferior to the professional land surveyor. :)
BTW: Anyone want to guess what I'm doing for my internship?
Your pal,
Fred
I don't think that much accuracy is necessary for what the planning office does.
I suppose you even might call your job 'surveying'
That particular task is, but there is much more going on in the planning office. As a college aide, I've been doing a lot of data entry, but I've had my ears open and fully intend to get as involved as I can in more "planning" related things as well.
:-) Andrew
:-) Andrew Kirschner
I was working with Evelyn Lane, Ted Orosz, Robert Lenin, and Adrienne Zicklin-Cantor. I know Bob passed away a couple of years ago and Ted is out getting his hip replaced. Also I remember down the next aisle of cubicles was (forgive me I forgot their last names) Paul and Ira. Any of them you know?
I know that the N still has a few R-40s on it, but does the D also or is this a rare occurrence? And no joke, I really did see it.
-Broadway Buffer
David
Subtalk rules!!!!
The APTA is an organization about the past, present, and future of public transit bus and rail service nationwide. Like Subtalk/Bustalk, the APTA talks about the public transit industry, so I am NOT posting off-topic messages.
Arthur Thomas
"Like Nashville, Utah Transit Authority is in the process of acquiring 30 gallery cars for the planned Salt Lake City service. In addition, the Housatonic Railroad in Connecticut will soon take delivery of 11."
Dylan
P.S. I'm tryin for them Mark, and Oren
|ORNG LINE|>
| VIENNA |>
<|BLUE LINE|
<|FRAN-SGFD|
So the FREE part might be the reason why there going like hotcakes, becides the facts for visiters and railfans like me and this board.
Holy cow, did they ever "flower" things up.
The scene starts out with an establishing shot of real, live footage of an R-62 (4) train blowing past a local station. Then it cuts to the set of a "subway station" platform where our characters are waiting for a train. The signs on the wall say "14 St". Okay...so they're at 14 Street - Union Square. But wait...they can't be, because they're not on an island platform, they're on a side platform. To their credit, though, the station really does look like a NYC subway station.
We then switch to a live-footage shot of an R-62 (4) pulling into a station, and then suddenly there's a "train" on the "set". Okay, so it's a (4) train. During the confusion of the crowd trying to jam onto the train, the man makes it on, but the woman doesn't....the doors close before she gets on. The man starts screaming through the door, trying to tell her to "wait right there", but the woman thinks he said to wait at "Union Square." You half-assed moron, you're AT THE UNION SQUARE STATION!!!
We now cut to the man on the "train". The seats are colored like an R-62, but they're arranged like those on an R-68, with some seats that face forward. Except there were no backward facing seats. Actually, I think there WERE backward facing seats, but they were FACING the forward facing ones. And the rest of the train just looked... wrong.
Back to the woman again, she has now made it to the "Union Square" station to wait for her husband. It looks like the exact same set as the "14 St" station, except that the signs now say "Union Sq". When she realizes that her husband ain't showing up, she returns to the "14 St" station, where she just misses him, and she ends up just returning home.
Is it right to feel insulted after seeing this crap?
This is the same "train" that they used on the subway episode of Seinfeld.
>>>Is it right to feel insulted after seeing this crap?<<<
Nah, don't sweat it. It's just Hollywood fucking up, again. They do it all the time.
Peace,
ANDEE
No just Hollywood. Movie-makers all over the world routinely get train details wrong. Don't worry about it. It only bothers nerds like us (8-) .
Which one? There were quite a few.
My favorite Seinfield botch is where they get off at Queensboro Plaza for gyros... and
1. its an underground station and
2. it looks like Church Ave on the 2 line
In a sit-com they find ways to do so that are "funny".
But don't always make sense.
Yes...if you have the IQ of a turnip.
I'm still thinking up some good questions to ask him, but does anybody here have any suggestions of some good subway-related queries you want answered? Maybe anything about the photoban?
"Mr. Mayor ... if you were given a choice of how to spend $600 MILLION of NEW YORK STATE taxpayer money, which of these two do you think would better serve DEVELOPMENT of the west side of Manhattan? A subway line that would feed people into the area -or- a football stadium for the Giants?"
Reason for asking that is that the MTA has apparently DROPPED its plans to extend the Flushing line to that area so that Suit Covered Anuses from Long Island can have their ride. Thus, no subway to the stadium ANYWAY. Stadiums WON'T develop a business district, so the question is which is more important to the mayor - development and new business supported by a new subway extension, or a stadium? He'll be scratching his nuts over that one. :)
"Mr. Mayor, what do you think is a better way to spend $600 million of our city's money? Giving it to our schools to buy new computers, or to renovate the crumbling buildings? Or *gasp!*, maybe give the teachers a raise? Or reopening the fire houses you closed? OR, do you think it's better to build a football stadium in Manhattan?"
>=-)
As far as I'm concerned, we can't afford the $600 Million in the FIRST place because the state's more than $5 BILLION in the hole and there's no budget in SIGHT. Paturkey's too busy campaigning for the Shrub to be our GOVERNOR and do his DAMNED JOB. :(
But at least if $600 Million went into a subway to the far west side, developers WOULD come in, office space WOULD get leased, business WOULD come in and there'd BE some money. But throwing it in the toilet for a team from Jersey ... no way. Not until we had a CLINTON economy again at least. :)
Are they really planing on building a stadium without the subway extension? I just imagine the traffic, but since it's only 8 days a year????????????????/
And by the ride from LI, are you talking about the East Side Access or the take over of the Cranberry tubes?
He'll just say what he says about film shoots plugging up the streets. "Deal with it".
The stadium is being pushed HARD, however the plans for expanding NYC's business district was entirely dependent on that subway line. In all sincerity, I don't see a stadium creating much demand for subway service since the Jets fans already have to drive or bus it as it is. But that subway line would have encouraged development and would have expanded the city's taxbase. In other words, UNLIKE the stadium, that subway line would have likely paid for itself or better. The stadium would be mostly cost with no real benefits aside from a few vendors. Would hot dog sales really make up for the loss of new real estate?
You don't see folks from Westchester and Connecticut demanding Metro North trains to Wall Street. Long Island already has downtown and east side access. It's called the SUBWAY. :)
Slash Medicaid* and the state will be rolling in money. But that's nothing that hasn't been said many times before.
* = also known as The Ultimate Losers' Program
You're totally correct. Get rid of all programs for those of low income and all the governments will be rolling in money. But is that the kind of country you want to live in?
If what you really mean is focus Medicaid so each dollar goes to meaningful care for those who truly can't afford it, now the problem isn't as simple.
All you'd have to do is cut NY's average Medicaid benefits to nationwide levels. No huge sacrifice.
And the money left over could build railroads, airports and highways anywhere and everywhere they're needed. But as long as we continue this dogmatic SCAM of "privatized healthcare for the VERY few who can afford it" and medicare/medicaid taking up the costs for those who CAN'T, then it will continue to eat us alive. A NATIONAL system would eliminate the inequities and price spikes in places like New York.
THERE'S a aolution ... that is if you're LOOKING for a solution rather than a rhetorical excuse. :)
Single payer health care would work in the United States only if combined with some sort of outcome-based rationing. Huge amounts of money are wasted under our present system on heroic care for people who are certain to die anyway. Sometimes, the least expensive - and most merciful - option is to let nature take its course, and let the dying pass away peacefully.
Why is the US the ONLY country where this doesn't work?
As to the "waiting lists" the REALITY in those "awful socialist countries" is that if you DON'T need the treatment NOW, it will be put off. If you NEED it, you're admitted in a flash. And while that MAY have been the old saw back in the days of Blue Cross, the REALITY with HMO's is that Sweden *WILL* get you in the OR at all. HMO's have proven that cutthroat competition can make you rot longer and harder than ANYTHING government can put you through and still get re-elected. Seriously! :)
What once was AIN'T ... we've been "trickled down on" in the past couple of decades. Ain't so anymore.
Instead of wasting huge, coast to coast funerals on them, complete with fighter jets, even if the deceased guests of honor designed those ceremonies?
And she sounded like someone with a good job too!!!
You can look at it as buying an apartment building and renting out apartments
the building may cost you $2 million but over the life of your ownership it will bring in $10 million in rents. The $600 will be in the form of bonds for which the interest rate is very low right now. The money used to pay off the bonds will come from a tax levey on the new development around the staduim
Look at battery park city and the world trade center as an example. The state dumped hundrend of millions into the trade center for which battery park city was it's landfill for soil and rock removed from the trade center. the money spent on the WTC for which up until 2000 had few marquee tenents. today BPC brings in hundreds of millions of dollars in tax like revenue(BPC pay a special levey not a tax) that the city would not have had if not it's initial investment.
The west side redevelopement project has potenial to do the same.
Get the facts straight. The moeny used to pay the bonds will come from a special tax levy on adjacent development plus excess revenue from BPC on top of the money that BPC pays the city. If you want increased soical services and higher pay and maintaining the same health insurance levels for maniciple workers. West side redevelopement which includes the staduim is a win win
This comes from a teacher who needs a raise. If the city does not create new revenue sources, it will not be able to pay it's increasing pension liabilities which means lower bennifits for current employees
I work in a school and have access to it's budget. Principles have tons of money to buy new computers. The whole purpose of the west side redevelopement project is to bring in money to help pay projected costs of rising pension costs which will rise at a greater rate then city revenues will. the west side projects increased tax revenue over time will help pay for such rising pension and medicare cost and bring in thousands of good paying costruction and hotel jobs.
Laugh all you want but hotel bell hopes make very good money all tax free.
Of course.
He came to my neck of the woods and everything was "we'll study this" and "the money has to come from somewhere, and the city's taxpayers shouldn't have to cover improvements to just this area."
Also he brought up the tax cut and followed it with "people in the smaller areas like this should not expect to see any part of the cuts anytime soon." I still can't figure out that connection.
I think the general idea is to get people to come into the area(build up more business and whatnot).
A subway line that extends to the complex can be used for all sorts, but proberly wont be used largly unless theres some type of event.
So maybe we need the sports complex first, then the subway second.
Though I want the subway ext. first, It makes more sence this way.
How they see it, this way or another, is just for the money that sports complexs and such bring in. If the complex is built, maybe the ext will follow.
But an olympic stadium would esculate the redevelopment in the area as the land owners will want to cash in on the olympics and banks who will see lending money to these developers less risky in essence it will help legitmize the west side as a neighborhood worth spending money in.
I would not expect you to understand such matters unless you have a degree in finace, accounting or business. It is the banks who hold all the cards. If they see fit to lend Toney for development a neigborhood will rise up from the underutilized state the west side is today. the stadium and the hopes of the olymbics that it will bring is a catalist to get the ball rolling. Bloomberg has already lined up the banks and developers who are interested and if built and the olympics come plus the 7 line extension, the project will make the city 20 times it's investment
The reason many neighborhoods in the outer bourough suffer over the last 40 years is that they were 'red lined" by banks. that means that the banks thought lending money to developers and individual homeowners in those areas was too risky and not worth it. The stadium and the olympics will green light lending to projects that banks would not support today.
Donald trump does not put his money up for new building projects, banks lend him money.
When the Nausea Coliseum was built, it did nothing for the surrounding area other than raise their taxes.
Amen, a monuMENTAL waste of time and energy.
Peace,
ANDEE
- Why do property owners get a "tax rebate", but those who rent (and who saw significant increases in their rent after you raised property taxes) get nothing?
- Can you fine one worthwhile study which demonstrates that the proposed West Side stadium is a wise investment of municipal resources?
If I come up with more, I'll post.
- Can you fine one worthwhile study which demonstrates that the proposed West Side stadium is a wise investment of municipal resources? HE CAN'T, +++ALL+++ SPORTS FACILITIES ARE WELFARE FOR THE RICH.
The fact is, losing the team tore the heart out of the borough and though I wanted very badly to have big league baseball for Los Angeles we didn't want the Dodgers. In fact I knew about a dozen or so people who were Brooklyn fans and were unhappy that they left Brooklyn. I still despise the Dodgers to this day.
Glad to see your Basebal part of yourself stayed in NY with our Mets!!
The Yanks may have won all those championships (26 is it?)....but the Mets have played my emotions, sold me down the river.....etc.....whatever.......
But in the end, I smile, & realize how much I love baseball & my Mets!!!
What can you say about a team that plays in Flushing?
Taxpayer subsidies for stadiums seem to be the trendy thing around the country. Hardly sensible economics, but that's the way things are.
As I've said before, what New York desparately needs is not a football stadium, but a NASCAR track. That's the most popular and fastest-growing sport in America. New York wil make itself a second-rate city in the nation's eyes if it doesn't SOON have its own race. I wouldn't mind seeing some reasonable subsidies for one, though the fact that it would almost certainly have to be in a suburban location would make the subsidy arrangements more complicated.
Men everywhere love fast cars and the promise of proving whose car is the fastest.
No, R-32!
No, R-62!
No, R-33!
No, R-44!
No, R-68!
Disney World has been on the soft target watchdog list for a while now, and thanks to big [campaign] contributions has one of the only 2 no fly zones in the US. But guess what? I can still take a picture of the epcot globe and the castle!! You tell me!
(assume he says yes)
Punchline: Then why did you back Governor Pataki and the incumbents in the state legislature in the 2002 election? Will you be doing so again in 2004, or advising people to vote against their incumbent state legislator?
What if Police officers stole money from banks to catch bank robbers?
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/11/nyregion/11TRAI.html
I was particularly interested in the cab drivers who work the station after closing time.
I dispute this statement in the article. The last LIRR train is at 0314 with the next one leaving at 0457 (both Babylon line trains), a gap of almost 2 hours. While Penn station doesen't close the cabbies there go through a similar scenario.
Peace,
ANDEE
Bub, that's still 24 hour service. The station doesn't close. Don't be so picky.
BTW, this gap doesn't exist during the weekends. LIRR always looks out for it's drunks.
The problem is that Metro North wants Grand Central completely shut down for a few hours, so it doesn't become a skell hotel. I suppoe the solution would be to run the super-locals from 125th Street, to which people can get by subway.
I see the trains consisting of 3 2-car MU pairs, one for each line. There could be an extra fare charged OR, it could be run like a Taxi where they charge something like $40 to make a station stop and let people out. Either way, the train should only make stops where people need to get off and run express otherwise.
If they ran a super local to any of the standard end destinations, there'd be at least one person getting off at every stop, except maybe a few of the really obscure ones. But that's a lot better than no train.
Or... Have an electric run to croton harmon/north white plans(wherever 3rd rail ends on the harlem) and have a diesel waiting for the few customers.
Regardless... a super local is better than no train at all.
The 1:30s are already super-locals.
1:20 AM electric to CH has connection arriving Pgh at 3:27 AM, making all stops
1:30 AM electric to Southeast arrives 3:09 AM, making all stops except Melrose and Tremont
1:30 AM to New Haven arrives 3:40 AM making all stops except Fordham
These take 23, 15, and 25 minutes longer than the prior semi-expresses. There is no really late night service on any branch line or to Wassaic.
It would seem to make sense to have 3:30 AM trains on all 3 routes.
Late Night Service on the Hudson Line, and on the New Haven Line can run out of Penn Station. There are plenty of platform slots available at that hour.
A Harlem Division train *could* leave NYP, turn right at Sppuyten Duyvil and then left again at 149th Street.
Probably have to use Genisis Locomotives for these trains.
These trains would not have to leave at 0330. 0245 is late enough.
Elias
1. Ticketing: Unless you reprogram the LIRR ticket machines, how are you going to allow people to buy tickets if they dont have them already. Remember they try to discourage ticket sales onboard as much as possible.
2. Location: Are people going to remember that their 3:30 and only 3:30 train leaves out of Penn Station, and NOT Grand Central. Also, which side of Penn do you use? LIRR or Amtrak. Seems like you'd use the LIRR side with Qualified Amtrak conductors/engineers on trains.
3. Equipment: LIRR/Metro North have different 3rd rails. Do you think Amtrak will allow Metro north to borrow 2 Genesis locomotives plus an Electric train consist? M2/M4/M6 IIRC cannot run off the catenary that goes in to penn station.
I'm surprised only the cabbies have seized this opportunity. Why no enterprising Bus, Limo or Van company?
For a good night sleep, what I did was bought was went to Penn Station, waited an hour for the train to Bablyon. At Massapequa Park there was a diner. This was a good place to enjoy an early breakfast before catching the returning train back to the city. During this time I was able to sleep on the trains going to and from Massapequa, as well as in the LIRR ticketed waiting hour. By the time I returned to the city it was only an hour-hour and a half until the first train out of Grand Central left.
I'm assuming Starlight is the one near All American. Massapequa Diner is good food, and late night, its served QUICKLY.
I'm glad there are still a couple of movie houses along the Babylon Branch near the stations. Bellmore has two, so does Rockville Centre. Lynbrook has its quad movie house, and I think there's one near Merrick, though I haven't seen that one yet. RVC is an especially nice place if you're into taking a train to a movie. A real good walkable village. Then again, the Bellmore location ain't too shabby either. And the ticket price was only four bucks, last time I went there. If I'm by myself there's nothing I like better than exiting the movies right onto a sidewalk (instead of a parking lot), and walking up onto an elevated train station platform to catch a train home. Whether at night or even in the middle of the day. It's really cool to leave a movie theatre in the daytime and you get onto the street and people are walking by, tending to their business. I can't explain it exactly. I get a feeling like I was playing hooky or something.
Sunrise Mall went downhill fast after the movies closed....But its about what i'd expect from a mall with Wal-Mart as its anchor store. I mean Wal-Mart is convenient and all, don't get me wrong, but when thats the best a mall can come up with, its kinda sad...
The two cinemas on 110 tend to have different things playing most of the time, so it depends on what I want to see which one i'll end up at. I guess thats how they keep competing next to each other!
The point of much of the discussion on this thread is that it might actually make good economic sense to have a very late night train. It would gain a fair amount of revenue, and ease traffic congestion by persuading people that they don't have to drive to NYC because there's always a train back. Presumably the control room doesn't go dark at night because there are work trains, etc., so there are no additional expenses in that direction.
I think they canceled the trains simply to get rid of the homeless people, becuase there was a lot less late night life in Manhattan back when they last had the trains than there is now. Demand would probably be much higher now. They just don't have the imagination to figure out a way to have 3:15 AM trains while still cleaning GCT and preventing it from becoming a hotel.
Legally, it may not be possible to keep Grand Central open all night without it becoming a hotel. Aren't the subways a hotel? Otherwise, it's a simple case of marginal cost vs. marginal revenues. As you say, the cost of the train may not be that high on the margin, but the cost of opening the station may be.
How about running night buses from Grand Central every hour on nearby roads? They could get up 87 or 95 very quickly to the Westchester line, then get to the stations by running up nearby streets (ie. Route 1). They wouldn't be that fast, but better to snooze on a bus than in the street.
Not sure why. Isn't there a small waiting room right by the main entrance on 42nd and Park? Open up that, and cordon off everything except a path from there to three tracks right in the middle of the upper level.
That's why I'd keep Grand Central closed to the public, and have all boarding of the overnight locals take place at 125th. People can get to 125th easily by subway.
I can't help getting the feeling from this article that these are folks who stayed too long at the bar or 'at a strip club' as one instance was reported. Only one instance was pure miscalculation. Correct me if my reading skills are subpar.
Don't get me wrong, my point of view isn't anti-drinking. I enjoy the hop flavored beverage as much as the next guy, but these folks are clearly amateur drinkers. Know when to say when cuz the last train leaves at 1.30.
Your pal,
Fred
Late night's long subway headways might be the cause of some missed Metro North trains at Grand Central. People who aren't familiar with the subway may take too long before leaving the clubs or whatever because they figure that the trains run every few minutes and they'll make it to GCT in time.
It may have been because of the following:
(1) Was in a different part of town, and tried to take the subway back to GCT, and ended up missing the train.
(2) Was drinking and lost track of time
I just attribute it to young, dumb, and full of cumb!
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/11/nyregion/11nyc.html
Idiot...it's not illegal yet! And he probably has a press ID anyhow!!!
Whenever I see something unusual, I try to take a picture (not that it may cost me $25 for each picture taken in the subway system real soon, in the form of a summons.)
I'd kill to ride it ...
Da Hui
Da Hui
#3 West End Jeff
-Broadway Buffer
Ronald Wilson Reagan 1911-2004
No cars are ever "thrown away". In fact, most of the cars are still assigned to the same shops as they were before 2/22.
I know I was just being sarcastic. It would make no sense to throw away perfectly good trains like R-40s. But I did hear that in 2006 when the R-160s come in all the R-32s are going to be retired or "thrown out." Too bad. Personally I think they look a lot better than the R-40s. & I know a lot of people say they looked even better with blue doors.
-Broadway Buffer
Commuters and workers helped NJ Transit design the next generation
Friday, June 11, 2004
BY JOE MALINCONICO,
Star-Ledger Staff
LA POCATIERE, Quebec -- From sizzling welding torches amid the smell of melting
metal, NJ Transit's next generation of trains is taking shape in this remote
Canadian village near the St. Lawrence River.
So far, only a few pieces of the frames are built -- steel skeletons that
hardly reflect the significance of the project. New Jersey transportation
officials are counting on these new cars to prevent a rail capacity crisis
during the next decade by carrying scores more passengers on trains into
Manhattan.
For years, they were called bilevels or double-deckers. But the 100 cars due in
2006 will be more than that.
In fact, there are three distinct levels -- entry vestibules at the two ends of
the trains that will have a few flip-down seats and ample standing room, a
lower area of 60 seats and top level with 60 more seats. It's pretty much like
a split-level home, with five stairs up and five stairs down.
Never before has a train anything like this worked New Jersey's rails.
"I think it will be an enjoyable train to commute on," said Matt Collins, who
rides the Raritan Valley line.
"They did a really good job accommodating the different needs of their
passengers," said Jill Pozarek, a commuter on the Gladstone line.
How do Collins and Pozarek know so much about the multilevel cars? They were
among 14 customers whom NJ Transit sent to the Bombardier Transportation
manufacturing plant in Canada last year for input on a preliminary model.
That focus group and the preliminary models are some of the unprecedented steps
the agency has taken to try to make the debut of the multilevel trains a smooth
one for commuters. Officials are especially wary after problems plagued the new
Comet V cars, the state's most recent new rail equipment, when they hit the
tracks in the fall of 2002.
"There was always a tendency to push new equipment out as fast as we could,"
said Richard Sarles, NJ Transit's assistant executive director. "Reality
eventually catches up with you. It's important for us to get this right."
By next summer, the first six multilevel cars will be ready to go to the
Federal Railroad Administration's test tracks in Pueblo, Colo., where they will
undergo six months of evaluation. In spring of 2006, officials expect
multilevel trains to begin carrying commuters, with the full shipment of 100
cars in operation in spring 2007.
NJ Transit is paying Bombardier $243 million for the first 100 multilevel cars,
and next year, transit officials will decide whether to buy another 100 cars
for $193 million.
Some of the main features commuters will notice include:
No three-seat combinations, a design that eliminates the unpopular middle
seats. The rows mainly are composed of two sets of two seats.
Individualized bucket-style seats, with 1.5 inches of space separating each
pair. That will put to rest the question of whether someone is taking up more
than his share space on vinyl cushions that do not mark where one seat ends and
the next begins.
Vestibule areas will have "perches," or lean bars, against which folks who are
standing can slouch down and rest.
Bathrooms will be twice as large as the current ones. They will have dispensers
that hold two rolls of toilet paper and stronger exhaust systems that officials
say will do a better job of getting rid of the odors that sometimes make
sitting near a train rest room a test of nasal endurance.
"Many of these features are a direct result of feedback from customer focus
groups," said NJ Transit Executive Director George Warrington.
The commuters who went to Canada to review the model of the multilevel cars
helped NJ Transit decide what color to make the seats (Bayfield Navy with
Imperial Blue trim), what type of material to use (a textured vinyl that's
comfortable but easier to clean than real cloth would be) and where the
bathroom coat-hanger should be placed (higher on the door so a trench coat
won't drag on the floor).
"They're using public funds, so they should be getting the public involved in
the decisions," said Everett Samms, a Raritan Valley line commuter who was in
the focus group. "I though it was a hoax when they called me about it."
Members of the engineers, conductors and mechanics unions also have reviewed
the model, part of a process designed to incorporate improvements in the design
before full-scale production of the trains begins.
But not everyone has jumped on the new trains' bandwagon.
"Painting the bilevels as the panacea is a big mistake," said Doug Bowen,
president of the New Jersey Association of Railroad Passengers.
Bowen warns that the multilevel cars -- by carrying more people than the
current models -- will cause schedule-busting delays while riders take longer
to discharge and to board at major stations. For example, passenger bottlenecks
are pretty much routine for morning rush-hour trains arriving at New York Penn
Station. The new cars will make those delays worse, Bowen said.
The new cars will have four doors -- two at each end of the train -- that will
open at the high-level station platforms that predominate NJ Transit's rail
lines. There will be no door in the middle of the cars, something that is
common on many NJ Transit trains now in service. Some members of the customer
focus group were concerned that the absence of the middle doors would cause
delays getting on and off the trains.
But transit officials said the middle doors would not fit with the multilevel
cars' design. They acknowledged that passengers would go through a "learning
curve" getting used to locations of the doors on the new trains.
Bowen also pointed out that many people have the misperception that the new
cars will carry twice as many passengers as the current ones do. In fact,
depending on the type of car, the multilevels will have anywhere from 17 to 25
more seats than do comparable versions of the Comet V's.
There will be significantly more standing room on the multilevels -- but
transit officials are hoping not to need the extra space right away.
One of Bowen's other qualms about the multilevel trains is that NJ Transit's
locomotives will not be able to pull as many of them as they can Comet V cars,
which he said would offset some of the benefit of the extra seats.
Transit officials said that their strongest locomotives can carry 10 multilevel
cars, compared with 12 Comet V cars.
New Jersey transportation officials see the multilevel cars as crucial to their
ability to provide enough capacity on trains to New York for the next decade
until a second rail tunnel gets built under the Hudson River to Midtown
Manhattan.
Boston and Baltimore have been using multilevel trains for years. NJ Transit's
version will be most similar to those running on the Long Island Rail Road,
largely because both models had to be built to fit through the tight tunnels
leading to New York Penn Station, officials said.
"These new trains aren't going to solve all of NJ Transit's problems, but
they're a step in the right direction," said Collins, the commuter from the
focus group.
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-6/1086929586244491.xml
Saw an interior diagram too . . . they're going with non-reversible seats. Those proved unpopular on NJ Transit before, and guess what: they will again.
I suspect that NJT's going with the non-reversibles here just due to two factors, those being less money and avoidance of "feet on seats". What NJT should have spent the money on was new EMUs—because, to be frank, where are these bilevels gonna be used? Electrified territory. Expect a lukewarm reception . . .
Oh? Now where did you get that information from. The ALP46 can handle 12 Comets just fine—so long as they aren't Comet IIMs, IIIs, IVs and Vs mixed together on the same train as has been happening lately thanks to the MMC. Now when you get the ALP44 with eight or nine cars, then you're asking for trouble.
Take another look out on the NEC or Morristown Line during rush-hours.
An ALP46 easily handles 12 Amfleet cars.
Since when have you seen a 12-car NEC NJ Transit local train? They don't exist. Not even local Arrow trains are 12 cars long. The 12-car jobs are NEC NJT expresses.
But you seem to have a bit of a reading comprehension problem. The 12-car jobs run on express trains, not locals as you heretofore claimed.
I'm trying to figure out what you meant by the following:
This is an MMC-driven decision to Box Car George of Acela Express fame, who also takes orders from a political-operative fool named Marty Robbins.
- What's MMC?
- Who are Box Car George and Marty Robbins?
- Does this "Marty Robbins" have anything to do with a certain New Jersey transportation guy named Martin Robins?
Peace,
ANDEE
wayne
Robert
By 1981 everything went back to normal with the exception that ALL R44s were placed on the "A". I am not exactly sure when the TA switched trucks between the R44s and R46s, but evidently the R46 truck fiasco was not over because in April 1982, the TA basically mothballed the R44s completely, thus moving the R38s from the "D", yes I said "D"; to the "A".
The R44s did not return to service until the Spring of 1983, thus moving the majority of R38s to the "CC". I am assuming that this marked the end of the truck fiasco.
You also have to remember, the "GG" was completely 8-car R10s on weekdays from 6 am to 9 pm before early 1985.
Wow, I could only imagine seeing that now. Do you think there is ever a possibility of seeing the models for any of the lines change like having R-38s back on the B or R-46s back on the E?
And I have a quick question. I noticed today (6/13/04) that when I was at the Coney Is Yard that almost all the F trains that passed by were R-32s. I only saw two R-46s opposed to seeing a lot of R-32s on the F. Is this unusual, because from what I usually see, the F's are usually mainly R-46's. Is the F going almost all R-32s?!
-Broadway Buffer
I think that there has been an increased amount of R32s on the "F" lately. I first noticed it when I was on the MOD trip of 2-29-04 while on the Culver line. I personally saw about 3 sets of R32s on the "F". Yesterday, while riding the "A" train along Fulton St in Bklyn, I saw about 3 R32s operating on the "F" on the Fulton St local tracks, in fact there was an R32 "F" @ Euclid Ave waiting to depart when my "A" train arrived. Also, Broadway Junction posted a bunch of pictures of the R32 "F"s along the "C" route yesterday.
As far as the "F" almost going all R32s, the original plan back in 1990 (due to heavy ridership and slow dwelling time) was to have R32s AND R38s on the "E" and "F" ONLY. The "A", "C", "G" and "R" was to have all R44s and R46s. The TA did start the process beginning 12/90. By early 1991, the "E", "F", "G" and "R" were ALL half R32 and half R46s. By late 1991, the "E" was 100% R32s, the "G" was 100% R46s, the "R" was 100% R46s (with 40% being rebuilt), and the "F" was mostly R46s with about a handful of R32s. I also noticed that at that time, the R32s on the "F" were Phase I R32s ONLY-which I thought was weird. Anyway, this arrangement lasted until 1993 when the Phase I R32s on the "F" were transferred to the "C" to replace the R30/R30As operating there. It was at this time that the "F" once again became 100% R46s and stayed this way until just recently (except for one very cold frigid winter-either '93 or '94, the TA was having problems recharging R46s, so the "E" and "F" swapped cars-the "E" was mostly R46s and the "F" was mostly R32s-only lasted about 3 weeks).
I think the TA didn't put R32s on the "G" because the "G" was not going to Forest Hills. It was only going to Courthouse Sq. I could be wrong, but I don't think there is a Courthouse Sq distination on the R32 rollsigns.
Like I said, I don't know if they have the destination or not. If they do have the destination, then I sure don't know why they didn't run the R32s on the "G".
Thanks for the picture.
Thanks again.
-Broadway Buffer
No, you had one or two sets on the "AA" and "B", but the majority of them were indeed on the "D" just before they were sent to the "A". You are right about the R40s and R40Ms.
As far as R46s, the "E" started getting them in 1977. By the end of 1978, the "E" as well as the "F" was exclusively R46s. It remained this way until 1980 with the truck fiasco. By the beginning of 1981, the "E" and "F" were once again 100% R46s. It remained this way until late 1990 when the R32s started appearing on the "E" and "F" again. You know the rest.
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Metrorail saw its fourth-best ridership day ever Thursday.
Spokeswoman Lisa Farbstein says 763,121 trips were taken on the subway.
The top three ridership days have been Wednesday's funeral procession for Ronald Reagan, President Clinton's first inauguration in January 2003 and the Million Man March in October 1995.
On Wednesday, 850,636 trips were taken on Metro.
(Copyright 2004 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
John
Michael
Washington, DC
By Lyndsey Layton
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, June 11, 2004; Page B01
Metro's budget committee endorsed a plan yesterday to raise fares and fees at the end of the month but added a new twist: The rail system would open a half-hour earlier on weekdays, at 5 a.m.
On a 7 to 2 vote, the directors who make up the budget committee agreed to raise the minimum subway fare by 15 cents to $1.35 and the local bus fare by a nickel to $1.25. The weekly bus pass would remain unchanged at $11.
The maximum peak rail fare would rise 30 cents to $3.90, and daily parking fees would increase by 75 cents. Monthly reserved parking would rise by $10 to $45.
The full Metro board is to vote Thursday on the increases, which would take effect June 27 and mark the second year in a row that fares and fees have gone up. Transit officials expect the fare increases will cause about 14,000 rail passengers and 3,200 bus riders to stop taking public transportation.
Metro directors, faced with a projected $23.4 million deficit in an operating budget of about $940 million, endorsed $29.2 million in fare increases. They said the surplus would be returned to the local governments that help fund Metro.
"You've asked for a fare increase, and then you send the money back to local governments," said Gordon Linton, a newly appointed board member from Montgomery County who was federal transit administrator under President Bill Clinton. "I find that highly unusual."
In the package endorsed yesterday, Metro would also charge a premium fare from 2 a.m. to 3 a.m. on Saturdays and Sundays, but trains would run on an off-peak schedule. Currently, off-peak fares are charged during that hour.
Disabled and elderly passengers who use MetroAccess, the curb-to-curb service, would see a 10-cent increase in their base fare to $2.50. But anyone accompanying a MetroAccess-eligible rider on Metrorail or Metrobus would be able to ride free -- an offer that transit officials are hoping will encourage more disabled riders to take the regular transit system. For the first time, MetroAccess riders traveling beyond the service area defined by federal law would be charged a premium of up to $4 per ride.
Opening the subway at 5 a.m. weekdays instead of 5:30 is expected to attract about 1,700 riders, transit officials said. The earlier opening would begin in September and would cost the local governments that subsidize Metro about $700,000 a year.
The two directors who voted against the fare and fee package, Chris Zimmerman of Arlington and Jim Graham of the District, said the increases were excessive.
"I cannot support any increase in Metrobus" fares, said Graham, a D.C. Council member who represents the Adams Morgan neighborhood, which is heavily served by bus lines. "We're raising $29 million, but we're insisting that $1.8 million come from bus riders who are least able to afford this."
Zimmerman called the fare increases "sneaky" because during extensive public hearings this spring, Metro officials presented a range of increases but pledged they would not seek the maximum amount. In the end, that's just what they did, he said.
"It hurts our credibility, to tell people we're going to do one thing and then we turn around and do the other," Zimmerman said. "I don't think that's the right way to do business."
© 2004 The Washington Post Company
By Lyndsey Layton
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, June 11, 2004; Page B01
Federal officials gave permission yesterday for Virginia to begin engineering work on the $1.5 billion plan to extend Metro to Tysons Corner and Reston, breathing new life into a massive public works project that appeared ready to collapse several times in the past year.
"We've always believed this corridor needs a public transportation solution," Federal Transit Administrator Jenna L. Dorn said. "They have a long way to go, as every project does when it begins preliminary engineering. But we feel confident they're on the right track."
The route would serve motorists, commuters and shoppers in one of the region's most congested corridors.
The approval means that the rail project, which has been discussed since the 1960s, will move beyond computer models for the first time. "We've got the beginning of a project -- not studies, not planning but engineering work," said Karen J. Rae, director of the Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transportation. "It's a pretty significant step forward."
Preliminary engineering is the second of three phases that a transit project must complete before it can be considered for federal construction money. Engineering, scheduled to take 15 months, is supposed to produce more accurate cost estimates as well as specifics on benefits and impacts.
Approval to start preliminary engineering does not guarantee that the federal government will decide to fund the rail project. But it is a crucial step in the lengthy process to win federal money.
"It's critical in that it separates this rail project from other competing projects that are not as far along, yet there are more hurdles that have to be overcome," said Richard A. White, chief executive of Metro, which has agreed to provide technical expertise on the project.
The rail project is a slimmed-down version of a $4 billion plan to extend Metro to Dulles International Airport, which Federal Transit Administration officials said was too expensive. Virginia officials devised a plan to build the line in phases, with a first section from West Falls Church to Wiehle Avenue. The second would run from Wiehle Avenue to Dulles International Airport and end at Route 772 in Loudoun County.
Federal officials made it clear they are backing rail to Wiehle Avenue only.
But Rae stressed that the state remains committed to building the entire line to Dulles and that Virginia will pay for preliminary engineering for the second phase.
"Dulles Airport is the largest airport in the nation's capital, and it's going to grow exponentially in next decade," said Fairfax County Board of Supervisors Chairman Gerald E. Connolly (D). "For reasons of national security, practicality, accessibility, you've got to serve Dulles with rail."
The state wants a private firm, rather than Metro, to design and build the project. It would be the first time a segment of Metro was not built by the public transit agency. Virginia officials said they have an innovative plan that will save tax money and set an example for other transit projects.
Opponents say it is a sole-source deal that would benefit Bechtel Corp. and Washington Group International, the companies that entered into a partnership to build the rail line.
State officials have been holding confidential negotiations with the private partners since January 2003 and have a draft agreement. There is no opportunity for public review until the deal becomes binding.
The arrangement is so unusual that the FTA hired an outside law firm to review it. The review found that the deal conforms to federal and state procurement laws, Dorn said.
In its approval letter to Rae, the FTA raised concerns about potential conflicts of interest among Virginia's private partners. Until early this spring, the West Group was one of the partners. The real estate firm, the biggest landowner in Tysons Corner, would have been involved in designing a rail line that would enrich its property values.
The West Group's decision to drop out of the private partnership reduced the potential for conflicts of interest, the letter said. But the FTA is requiring tougher guidelines for real estate negotiation between the state and its private partners.
Federal officials said they are also concerned that Virginia has never before built a billion-dollar rail project and lacks the experience necessary to manage it. The FTA has directed the state to hire a project manager with an extensive background in supervising such a project.
Opponents of the project say it will squander money. "Not only is it not a solution to traffic, but it's billions of dollars of taxpayers' money that are going to be wasted," said Gil Davis, an attorney for a group of Fairfax landowners who plan to file suit to stop the project.
The landowners, from the western part of the county, contend that Virginia officials violated state law when they selected rail to serve the Dulles corridor. They want the state to consider bus rapid transit, a relatively new and cheaper form of public transportation, in which buses run on a dedicated road and operate more like trains on rubber tires. A hearing in the case is scheduled today in Fairfax Circuit Court.
© 2004 The Washington Post Company
John
There has been a lot of speculation as to how trains are going to be dispatched and where they will start and terminate runs. The fact we do know is the total length of the Silver line will run between Route 772 (Middletown Road) (M11) and Stadium Armory (D08). Based on the fact that the pocket track east of Tyson East (West Park) (M02) has been remove and replaced with a double crossover the likely hood of inbound trains terminating at Tyson East has dropped considerably. However some outbound trains will still short turn at Tyson West (Tyco Road) (M04) I will also note, besides there being a pocket track west of Wheile Avenue (M07) there will also be a pocket track west of Dulles Airport (M11) throwing other possibilities in to the mix.
FYI. The zero chaining point for the Tyson, Dullas, Loudoun County M Route Silver Line is the only route in the system that does not have its zero chaining point in either Metro Center (A01,C01) or Gallery Place (F01). The zero chaining point for the Tyson, Dullas, Loudoun County M Route Silver Line is located at 238+26 on the D Route Blue Orange line. That point is 169’ (51.51m) east of the portal east of Stadium Armory (D08).
John
Peace,
ANDEE
Things would NOT have developed. Development was related to the presence of the Lion.
Elias
Which begs the question, why the 7734 is Grand Concourse a three track line.
I mean, if Red Hylan wanted to drive the IRT out of business in needed more than what he built!
Elias
also, i had no idea that the street was built along with the subway. what sections and for how long?
-Broadway Buffer
Arti
My name is Morgan Friedman and I'm I love public transit. Why do I sound as if I'm standing up in an AA meeting?
Anyhow, I read this group regularly but only post occasionally, and I wanted to post now because I just realized that lots of people I know who are also really into the public transit world also really enjoy listening in to strangers conversations! So I thought that you all might enjoy my web site, Overheard in New York: www.overheardinnewyork.com. We just post random things that we overheard strangers saying in public.
Thinking about it now, I just realized that Overheard in New York is related to public transit in an interesting way. In Los Angeles, everyone is alone, driving -- no public transit; no serendipity of meeting or at least hearing strange people nearby. But in NY, the crowds on our subways - people standing on top of each other as the subway goes all throughout the city - make it impossible NOT to listen in to what the people around you are saying. That is, unless you have a discman/ipod.
Anyhow, I'd love to hear what you all think of the site & if you have any suggestions for it!
-morgan
A young woman gets on the downtown C train at 59th (about 2 months ago). across from her is another young woman with a long object in a soft-sided container.
First woman: "Is that a bassoon?"
Second woman: "No, it's a sword."
Recently, within maybe the last 6 months, I heard a hilarious line on the bus. In Clearwater FL SR60 typically backs up big time in the winter and holidays. On this day the whole thing from end to end was a standstill. And this old man, who's very vocal anyway, shouts:
"Look at all this traffic. If this was a hurricane right now we'd be dead!"
Funny but very true. Another reason why I want my #%#% jet-train!
And I've done this before too, from your page. :)
Girl on cell: Hey! What's new?...What?...I have no life. I don't know what to tell you.
--Union Square
I was chatting with some lady a little while later and she laughed. I agree with her when she concluded they had no idea what it meant and just overhead the term.
I'm certain, however, that the two boys on the #1 train were using the word "lesbian" as it is generally understood.
I wonder how easy it is to use the word gay as a slang, when ORL and the keys are two big gay hotspots.
I was up at the to pf the World Trade Center (before it fell down)...
Some lady from the mid-west (well, somewhere west of the Hudson at any rate) was pointing to the large gas tanks on the far side of the east river... (recall that they had a red and white checkerboard patter as was required for aviation reasons back in those days)...
She tell her kids "That's the Ralston Purina Building"
Exit, one Lion stage left laughing his tail off!
: ) Elias
Where am I?
You must identify the closest subway station to where this picture was taken, it's not far away. Good luck.
Da Hui
It is a highway billboard, whatever it is advertizing, it is not the TA, for those are not correct colors for some of those trains. So the Letters on the billboard have nothing to do with what trains might be nearby.
Since somebody already said LIC, and that would have been my guess, I'd guess that the Flushing Lion might not be far away, but what station, I have no clue.
Elias (and his Lion!)
Good one Dave.
-Chris
Story here
For a 12-9?
Maybe it was a skell who didn't bathe for a month and whose bloodstream was an ecosystem of microbiology.
The police use 10- codes on their raidos. 10-4?
The police or EMS would cal it a 103, as in a 10-103 but up in the hundreds, the leave the 10- out. Damn if I don't know but two or three of those codes. Mostly I talk to LEC in English, and they will reply in kind.
The Subway has its own code system for their radios, and those are 12- codes, so that other people listening in will know that it is a transit issue. Maybe someone can point us to the other codes, for I have seen them on here before.
12-9 is a "Customer under the Train".
But that doesn not translate to BNSF. I do not know if the have any codes like this.
Elias (and his Lion!)
A San Diego Trolley employee was killed yesterday when he stepped in front of a morning rush-hour train headed through Chula Vista, disrupting trolley service in the area for about four hours.
The 6:46 a.m. incident near Moss Street and Industrial Boulevard also might have contributed to an accident at another nearby crossing about 10 minutes later.
The 42-year-old worker was an off-duty facilities service employee for the trolley agency, where he had worked about eight years, a spokeswoman said.
Witnesses told officials the man stood waiting on the Moss Street sidewalk, then without warning ran to the center of the light-rail tracks and faced the oncoming train. The three trolley cars, heading toward downtown San Diego from San Ysidro, were moving about 50 mph.
Nancy Irwin, a spokeswoman for the Metropolitan Transit System, said the trolley operator saw the man and "slammed on his emergency brake" but had no hope of avoiding impact. At full speed, she said, it takes about 300 feet to bring a trolley to an emergency stop.
Irwin said the man, who worked on trolley station maintenance and upkeep, lived near the Moss Street crossing. He was declared dead at the scene.
This sounds like a suicide - sad to say
After I insisted, she connected me to a supervisor, who was very kind and informative. She did some research, and told me that the B/Boston College and E/Heath lines will go to North Station, and the C/Cleveland Circle and D/Riverside lines will be cut back to Government Center. She also promised to pass this to the front line Customer Service agents. (Currently, D & E go to Lechmere; B & C turn at Government Center.)
So all things being equal, I guess we'll see some Type-8s at North Station beginning soon!
Press release on Green Line changes
Super Station Project Description
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-6/1086929586244491.xml
Saw an interior diagram too . . . they're going with non-reversible seats. Those proved unpopular on NJ Transit before, and guess what: they will again.
I suspect that NJT's going with the non-reversibles here just due to two factors, those being less money and avoidance of "feet on seats". What NJT should have spent the money on was new EMUs—because, to be frank, where are these bilevels gonna be used? Electrified territory. Expect a lukewarm reception . . .
Oh? Now where did you get that information from. The ALP46 can handle 12 Comets just fine—so long as they aren't Comet IIMs, IIIs, IVs and Vs mixed together on the same train as has been happening lately thanks to the MMC. Now when you get the ALP44 with eight or nine cars, then you're asking for trouble.
Take another look out on the NEC or Morristown Line during rush-hours.
An ALP46 easily handles 12 Amfleet cars.
Since when have you seen a 12-car NEC NJ Transit local train? They don't exist. Not even local Arrow trains are 12 cars long. The 12-car jobs are NEC NJT expresses.
But you seem to have a bit of a reading comprehension problem. The 12-car jobs run on express trains, not locals as you heretofore claimed.
I'm trying to figure out what you meant by the following:
This is an MMC-driven decision to Box Car George of Acela Express fame, who also takes orders from a political-operative fool named Marty Robbins.
- What's MMC?
- Who are Box Car George and Marty Robbins?
- Does this "Marty Robbins" have anything to do with a certain New Jersey transportation guy named Martin Robins?
Anymore?
This photo actually makes me want to play with my n-gauge version more. >_>
http://naphotos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=2004060108450720786.jpg&order=byposter&page=3&key=salaamallah
Its the gold line, not green line
Makes it less confusing. XP
I will surely bring my camera, cant say much for a credit card, sometimes you need to leave home without it. >_>
What? This aint the bad credit bureru? Damn.
In florida on the BCT bus, I think a all day was 1.25, too bad it was only bus's, BCT, doesnt have a train line., though MDTA has one but they dont have a all day pass.
Now I went off topic. >_> Atleast its interesting. :P
Its been about 2-3 yrs since I last was down there, and most likely wont be going back since my grandma moved to (shudders)Honesdale PA, while its nice down there, theres no public transit ;_;.
Just hope that the yearbook staff in 2006 doesn't make as many errors in people's names and majors...
-Chris
Our school was a mad house.
Students parked in teacher lots, 3,000 bouncy balls, water balloons and water guns filled with beer and vodka, chickens running loose in the cafateria, eggs flyings, fire crackers, by the end of the day, the school was on lock down and cops patrollin the whole building.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Does anyone here take Regents or have taken them yet this year? As a freshman, I had none in Jan, but I have a Biology regents next Fri. The LAST day of class at Tottenville is Tue, Jun 15. This is because during the rest of the week and the next one, there are Regents in my school. I just have to go back for like 15 mins on Jun 25 to get my report card.
Anyone else?
-Chris
til next time
I've got my math final on Monday, then a Global Regents, Spanish Regents, and Earth Science Regents. So far, everything but the math seems like it'll be fairly easy.
i have no word on the senior prank and what it may be.
Nice new obstruction of the view... :(
Still some Redbirds floating around
As for the other photos, I'm wondering when the new trackways are laid. The last photo is the most interesting as they show some new signage. Especially love the RAILROAD CROSSING sign.
Acoording to the FRA standards and US DOT Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) the "Highway-Rail crossing sign know as the crossbuck shall be retroreflectorized white with the word RAILROAD CROSSING in black lettering".
Therefore, this is how it the proper crossbuck should appear according to FRA and USDOT guidelines:
[url]/mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/millennum/12.18.00/8.pdf [/url]
picture 1
picture 2
I've only seen the R32 Q once. Haven't had the oppurtunity to ride it just yet.
Akzidenz lives on in the "R" reading on rollsigns... =p
No that's not the case. If you notice, in the first picture, "Manhattan" is spelled out. In the second picture, Manhattan is abbreviated as "Manhtn".
I always thought of smaller font as below:
That's where they ran when they were new!
Looked better with the blue doors!
Elias
Your pal,
Fred
I just have one question. Does anyone know what happened to the R-32 set that was on the B line a couple weeks ago. Is it still around or has it been moved to another line.
-Broadway Buffer
The B always runs on the Brighton line (when it runs at all), and by now most riders are used to it there. (Most passengers who care about the distinction between Brighton and West End live, work, or go to school along one of those lines -- i.e., they're regular passengers. Relatively few tourists ride the B or D into Brooklyn.) The 2 doesn't always run local, and when it first did, in late 2001, there was incredible confusion, especially at stations like Times Square, which has an extremely heavy tourist presence.
Shouldn't the R-142's have been swapped with R-62(A)'s from some other line? The R-62(A)'s neither sign nor announce express vs. local.
And the signage would still have been incorrect. Just like the signage on the R-32 B, except it affected far more non-regular passengers.
Go down to the fifth picture
post 722517
Getting back to the original issue of this thread - they SHOULD order new rolls for a permanent service change, or at least implement a temporary solution. The current R32/R38 rolls lack correct signage for the B, S(Rock Pk), and W routes. Never mind the oddball R32 cars which lack correct signage for the C, and lack the letters V and W altogether (but ironically enough have appropriate signage for the B).
There are R42s that lack a Z reading; a Z bullet was pasted over the V reading. Why can't black tape be placed over the word "Brighton" on CI's R-32s?
What signs are the R32s lacking for the "C"?
As far as it being wrong. It's just a shape. Believe it or not, a regular rider wouldn't pay that any attention unless they are on the "6" or "7". In fact, I would even go as far as to say that a regular everyday rider doesn't have a clue why some trains are circles, and some are in diamonds or why they use different colors.
Maybe the shape is wrong, but the important thing is the information that it stating is correct-it is a "C" and it is an 8th Avenue Local.
If you want, download BAHN and run it's NYCTA simulation, it's not as pretty as a BAHN simulator, but it makes you appreciate the MTA's planning department.
I have a challenging enough time laying out the track and getting the trains to run without causing any accidents, much less setting up a good schedule. I still love it, more power to Jan Bochmann!
>They are like M7s with pantographs for the overhead cantary(?) wires.
-Chris
Does anyone know what I can expect on the Lex on saturday? I've already figured out that there will likely be bowling green bound 4 trains or 149st bound 5 trains (that hasn't happened in a while), from what's on the TA website.
Da Hui
# 4 Line will have Extra service running between Woodlawn and Bowling Green.
All # 5 T/O's and C/R's report to Woodlawn.
Interesting item: next weekend there are expresses on the 4 from 149th to Woodlawn.
Bad News: No 2/3 service between 149 GC/ 148 Lenox to 96 St - Bway.
Uptown and Downtown # 4,5 running local between Grand Central and Brooklyn Bridge.
And what you're saying isn't anything new. When the coaches arrive it is a guarantee that SOMEBODY will photograph them and post them online, eventually they'll filter over here.
At some point wouldn't it be cheaper, and less oppresive to just admit we were wrong, apologize, and then give the trillions of dollars we give to 'defence' to the people who bear us a grudge? Admittedly it's bribery writ large, but if there's one thing that history teaches, it's that terrorists and insurgencies are not fought with armies and military might, they're fought with education, prosperity and just courts. Nobody grows up WANTING to be a suicide bomber, they're driven to it by some percieved injustice. For one thing, such a notion runs counter to every drive that we retain from our ancestors, namely the need to reproduce and secure a future for our offspring. I could see how they could perceive the destruction of their opressor by their own hand as securing that future, but most people have a rather strong self-preservation drive to counter that.
What was the name they mentioned in that paper, Music City Star or something like that for the name of the RR? Do they have a website?
And a map here:
-Chris
Remember the Champlain Flyer? This is going to go that way... Rural area just do not need Commuter Rail. They need better buses.
AEM7
"then you know that Nashville, Charlotte, and Atlanta is where everyones going"
REALLY? I'm thinking about moving to Nashville, but I'm dying for Atlanta.
R-32.
But to quote Jeb Bush:
"We have the largest number of people moving in, the third-highest number of people moving out. We have a pretty high birth rate. We have a lot of young people who are becoming first-time voters. And, we have a lot of people going on to see their Creator," Bush said.
It's an interesting place....
All the girls say, Save a horse! Ride a cowboy!
Gaylord Entertainment Center I think it's called. Lots of concerts there. Aren't the flameworthys there too?
I miss the old TNN, with the Dukes of Hazard
Gaylord entertainment used to be extremely diversified company but now their core focus is on hotels and entertainment. The hotel portion was the best company I ever worked for. A buddy told me I'm spoiled now and the only place I'd be happy working at is vegas. He's right.
With the commuter rail, that might be a great thing for the city. I will find my non-car-oriented commute someday!
I was searching for some info and came accross some news propaganda putting the line down. The funny thing is, besides the exact same sheet feed propaganda on how horrible it is, the guy was talking exclusively about LRT when putting this line down. I guess no ones told him that the difference is like a downtown st. vs highway, no comparasion.
I'd make a trip(if i'm not living there in 06 anyway, that's always an unknown), but, is this one of those rush hour only systems? or will there be a midday trip?
Everything I've read says that basically, at the start of things, it's gonna be a rush hour only thing. 3 trips inbound in the morn, and I guess 3 trips outbound in the late afternoon. They said they plan to expand the system and add alot more service by 2012, but I doubt there's gonna really be any midday service.
I'm startin to think....I've always wanted to live in Nashville. Hmmm...move to Nashville and get a job on the Music City Star, hell, that'd be real fun.
I think all Express services should have at least 1 or 2 mid-day runs, for whatever reason. Ridership isn't that high, but as a public service, people do use them for whatever reason. Without the mid-day run, there's services I would never use other than an business day work situation.
I never seen people on a mid-day xpress run that didn't exist.
I agree, atleast have some midday service.
Anyone know what equipment they plan to use. I haven't seen anything relating to it on the Colorado Railcar proposed service gallery(Or is the Riverside Transit Authority the Nashville one?). Maybe Bombardier bi-levels? Kawasaki bi-levels? I'd like to see Colorado Railcar and Bombardier bi-levels. Run 3 car trains:
AeroDMU-BBD bilevel-BBD bilevel
That's 362 seats(ya think that'd be enough?) per train.
Looking at your 362 seats for 3 trains per trip, and the total ridership, that's a bit much, sortof. I'm concerned if it's once an hour, no mid-day, 3 times in morn and evening service. They got a bus in Orlando that does that. That's fine and all, but you limit your potential. I hope later on they improve service like Tri-rail is doing. The more frequent you can run, the more people will come. If you miss a train that sucks at every 60 min. Or what if you start work at 7 or 8 am or whatever, and the train comes at 8:10am. You're either 10 min late or 50min early. That'll be my situation probably, but i'm more for the greater good, if it works it works, depending on how you define works.
Also, if the 362 seats per train is too much, have a train like:
AeroDMU-single level low floor-single level low floor
That's I think 270 seats per train.
They could of course always just do single level low floor-single level low floor. That'd be I think 180 seats per train.
Nashville is far larger than Burlington.
Secondly, have you been to Nashville, or the Nashville area? If not, then you have no idea how sparse it is just based on that skeletal map showing only the main roads. That map says nothing of all the subdivisions (suburban speak for semi-enclosed/ enclosed neighbourhood ) off of those roads, each with their own web of roads. I know; along with Jeff W., I live in the South. Florida. My area originally started as a neighbourhood that, due to urban sprawl, grew into a big area that can't be called a 'neighbourhood' (complete with various shopping centres and strip malls). To look at my area on any regional or state map won't do the density of the area any justice; as there must be over a thousand streets out here, and there's an expressway that leads up here from Tampa. That map may only show the main routes with numbers (US 19, US 41, and SR 50).
Thirdly, there is very sufficient population in and around Nashville. Do you know how I can tell? Here's how: see all of those interstate legs radiating out of Nashville, there are five of them. They make two rings inside Nashville. That's a huge clue that there's alot of folks to get rid of during the evening rush-hour, as well as goods and services and cross-country traffic. All of those bodies could use commuter/ rapid trasit. Especially those in dire need of escaping urban Nashville. Even if Lebanon is rural, that commuter line will change that. Radically!! Then those folks will be crying for the days of old!
I believe that for a successful transit system to be built, and last, you have to have the vision to think long term. Do not just build where there is a dollar to be made [immediately]. If N.Y. did that, we'd never have a subway.
Click here for that picture.
As i understand it, trains in the early days were used to move people further out, like what the highways do today. Interesting how now we try to use these trains to counteract the highways and bring people to more cohesive situations.
The way I see it. If you live south of a certain latitude, you're probably traffically(traffic-ally, not terrific) screwed. As long as you have employment centers like they keep doing, you can park and ride from anywhere and have it work out just fine. Only thing you can do in exurbia, besides tear it down is park and ride.
And besides being a growing town, I understand the traffic sucks. go figure.
R-32.
On the maps, I could see some track that entered the airport property. They should think about starting a rail service from the airport to the downtown.
I'm suprised it says construction will start so soon, and even more suprised they expect service to start in one year. I think it's great. It's probably mostly cuz the track is there.
Does anyone know if they plan to serve the old Union Station(I think Riverfront is on the other side of the city, right?)
Thus it's fitting that his funeral not only cost the taxpayers millions of dollars, but also dripped of Neo-Con ranting and political entreaties for reelection. Perhaps the greatest irony, one almost of biblical magnitude, is that his disease is likely preventable by the very process that the person claiming to be a later incarnation of him has banned.
Until now I used to think only that the British were best at 'Stage Managing' these occasions.
Then compare: pomp and circumstance, entry of the coffin (and uniforms!). Skip most of the middle of the service, and go to the end: last post, styles of Her Majesty (amazing list of accumulated titles, the funniest being “relict”), reveille, National Anthem and exit.
But then the Brits have a lot more practice at these things: the Trooping of the Colour ceremony to celebrate the Queen’s official birthday was held today.
Chuck Greene
Just pay the $2 and be done with it. He was a very popular and influential president, whether you liked his politics or not.
ENJOY!!!
-Chris
Ben F. Schumin :-)
-Chris
Here are three version that I have done over the last four years.
103 miles system that I did in December of 1999 that shows the system as it looks today.
One of the version of the 127 miles system showing one of the early options proposed for the line through Tyson Corner that I did in June of 1999.
This version of the 127 miles system (modified from the one above) showing the Local Preferred Alternate with the revisions from the Supplemental Draft Environmental Statement.
John
Yard? Looks interesting as its a 1 door made platform.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
You are correct. I posted them unchanged from when I first created them with the exception of the fact that I removed the WMATA M logo after being informed by WMATA that I was violating their trademark.
John
No. Only extension provisions exist on the east side.
John
Based on your map with the Silver Line--wouldn't East Falls Church technically be a transfer station?
Mark
Yes.
John
Changes:
-New York ave. station under construction added
-recent station name changes added
-orange line to Vienna Fairfax GMU in east-west representation
-blue line extension under construction marked as such
-Alargule
-Alargule
One comment: the Orange Line alignment was better off the way it was before in your first version. With it like this it will be difficult for you to squeeze the Silver Line in there when it finally opens.
Also: if you're going to show terminals in boxes, you should also box Grosvenor-Strathmore and Silver Spring since many Red line trains short-turn there.
-Chris
-Chris
Click here
-Chris
I do not want to be nitpicking, but you made some typo's (or is it typoes?):
POTMAC instead of PotOmac;
Federal TIRANGLE instead of TRIangle.
-Chris
John
Also, move the legend to the lower left corner of the map, then the Orange Line might be able to go straight west.
That might be a reason to choose for the former, much shorter names ... ;-)
Oh, SINY... I advise you throw in Brookland-CUA's name next to the station.
The maps for the WWII Memorial Dedication brochure did have the new names on it, though. I would think that tourists would find that confusing, since they're signed one way, and on all the other maps like that, but then the little pocket map shows otherwise.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
-Chris
Especially strange they'd print a map that's got name changes on it like that, since when the Bredas went back into service after rehabbing, they got the 2001 map that says "National Airport" and "Summerfield" on it, among other things that have changed.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
WMATA only prints up new car maps when new segments open. That why the rehabbed Bredas got 2001 maps. The car maps use a 9 color printing process printed on heavy paper with inks that prevent color fade as opposed to the 4 color printing process used on brochures.
When New York Avenue (B3.5) and the G Route Blue line extension open in 2005 all of the maps will be updated.
I have no idea if both of the new but separate facilities will open on the same weekend or on different weekends.
John
I could've sworn that I read on the WJLA web site that New York Avenue will be opening up this November......
Was it my imagination.....or not
See ya Saturday,
Mark
Was it my imagination.....or not.
I downloaded the latest version of the Metofacts PDF on 06 10 2004 and it says both New York Avenue (B3.5) and the G Route Blue line extension will open in late 2005. The search engine at WMATA web site displays "Fact card December 01 revision - draft" which is embedded in the PDF document. The link in the search engine has the same path as the link on the WMATA home page under Inside Metro > Facts.
WJLA likely has gotten information that has not been updated in the persent version of the Metrofacts PDF file on the web site.
John
-Chris
>>* Updated WMATA Map*6/13<<
-Chris
It was not clear if that meant the shuttle also was out of service this weekend. I never noticed this entry for the M on weekends before, but then I possibly never looked.
-Broadway Buffer
June 10 2004
Gov. John Rowland approved a plan to spend more than $1 billion to replace Metro-North Railroad's entire New Haven Line fleet and to build new maintenance facilities in New Haven.
The plan, announced yesterday, calls for $1.02 billion to buy 340 new electric cars. The state Department of Transportation and the Office of Policy and Management are preparing a funding plan to present to the General Assembly next year.
The plan, which remains unfunded, is contingent on approval by the Legislature. The Metropolitan Transportation Authority board also must approve it.
The current 342-car New Haven Line fleet is more than 30 years old, 10 years past its intended life span. The need for new equipment was highlighted this past winter when about a third of the cars were knocked out of service, causing widespread shortages, delays and crowding.
The $1 billion railcar replacement plan is significantly cheaper than what Metro-North Railroad officials projected.
Transportation officials initially estimated that replacing the fleet would cost $2 billion because the New Haven Line works on a dual propulsion system, requiring it to purchase as-yet-undesigned M-8 electric rail cars.
But the DOT reduced the cost by proposing to buy only one M-8 for every three cars -- the other two will be the much cheaper M-7s, which run only in New York.
"We realized that the M-8s are over-powered," said Harry Harris, head of the Bureau of Public Transportation, part of Connecticut DOT.
According to the plan, the M-8 cars are strong enough to propel two M-7 cars while the train goes through Connecticut, which is powered by ground-level and overhead electricity. Once the train passes into New York, where trains run solely on ground-level power, the two M-7s can propel the M-8.
"Metro-North is fairly confident that it will work," Harris said.
M-8 trains cost about $3.5 million each, Harris said, whereas M-7s cost about $2 million.
Yesterday, the DOT also announced that it has purchased 38 locomotive-powered cars that will add about 4,000 seats to the New Haven Line by fall.
The cars, purchased for $60 million from Virginia Railway Express, will be used on Shore Line East and some of the branch lines, transportation officials said, freeing Bombardier cars and maintenance equipment for the New Haven Line.
"I am very pleased that we will be able to deliver some relief to our commuters within a few short months," Rowland said in a statement.
The Legislature approved the $60 million appropriation in April, expecting that it would purchase only 20 cars, or about 2,000 seats.
The DOT now will need an additional $20 million to $30 million to buy locomotives to pull the trains, Harris said, although in the short-term it can use locomotives borrowed from Metro-North lines.
The Virginia rail company is getting rid of the 10-year-old cars because it is upgrading its fleet, which runs from Washington, D.C., to the Virginia suburbs, to double-decker cars, said Jim Cameron of the Connecticut Rail Commuter Council.
The cars are expected to arrive next month. They will be serviced over the summer and placed into service by early fall, transportation officials said.
"It's a good first step in what is a long overdue fleet replacement," Cameron said.
A statewide 5.5 percent commuter rail fare hike is still set to take effect Jan. 1.
Don't mind me, wearing my cynic hat again. With tassels. :)
David
The New Haven washboards (4400) lasted only 26 years.
The 4000's heavy weights lasted 42 years but after two extensive rebuilts.
I worked on the specs for the M1 - the design life was 30 years, with an overhaul at 20.
John
There has been a lot of speculation as to how trains are going to be dispatched and where they will start and terminate runs. The fact we do know is the total length of the Silver line will run between Route 772 (Middletown Road) (M11) and Stadium Armory (D08). Based on the fact that the pocket track east of Tyson East (West Park) (M02) has been remove and replaced with a double crossover the likely hood of inbound trains terminating at Tyson East has dropped considerably. However some outbound trains will still short turn at Tyson West (Tyco Road) (M04) I will also note, besides there being a pocket track west of Wheile Avenue (M07) there will also be a pocket track west of Dulles Airport (M11) throwing other possibilities in to the mix.
FYI. The zero chaining point for the Tyson, Dullas, Loudoun County M Route Silver Line is the only route in the system that does not have its zero chaining point in either Metro Center (A01,C01) or Gallery Place (F01). The zero chaining point for the Tyson, Dullas, Loudoun County M Route Silver Line is located at 238+26 on the D Route Blue Orange line. That point is 169’ (51.51m) east of the portal east of Stadium Armory (D08).
John
After more than two years of talk, reports, congressional lobbying and consultant contracts, the Downtown Development Authority's plan to pull drivers off the roads has finally gelled.
The quasi-governmental DDA, a taxing authority, hopes to slip into place by 2007 a public transit option that would free downtown of the congestion redevelopment will bring.
Many condominums are being built downtown now, but even if fully occupied, the downtown is walkable.
South Florida has a history of public works projects that have been huge money losers. In Public Transportation, these include the Miami Metrorail. While Light Rail downtown would be neat, I bet it would join the ranks of huge money losers.
The above statement was pulled from the article.
Can we say "Houston" light rail II !!
It looks like these folks did not see all the accidents along the Houston LVR and are looking to repeat the same mistake. It's folley NOT to give the light rail it's own right of way removing the motorist.
OH WELL. After two dozen accidents and several fatalities, they might get the picture.
Anyway, it sounds like Riverline to me, Houston is it's own ROW i thought and just crosses at intersections where all the crap is happening. THe most I would worry about is the same as I would in a bus for streetrunning, some dick pulling out in front and not stepping on it. Big cause of "accidents".
That finding ended a 15-month examination of cost overruns and change orders associated with the $1 billion project, according to a statement released by Attorney General Peter Harvey.
This story is all over the place mentioning and blocking critisms. I'm not even sure where to start. what a surprise they didn't find anything? BUt then the probe was too narrow? Jeeze.
Noting that Greater Cincinnati's population is expected to increase 20 percent from 1.89 million in 2000 to 2.27 million in 2030, he said that "demands on roads and transit will continue to be significant."
To try to keep up with transportation demands, OKI estimates that $7.54 billion in federal, state and local sources will be available from now through 2030 for transportation improvements in the area -- $5.92 billion in southwest Ohio and $1.62 billion in Northern Kentucky.
Of that, $3.68 billion -- about $2.8 billion in southwest Ohio and some $850 million in Northern Kentucky -- is expected to be spent on 116 highway projects that include 466 miles of new lanes and 450 miles of reconstructed lanes.
OKI estimates that another $10 billion worth of projects are needed, but can't be implemented because funding isn't available.
I never realized how similiar current infrastructure is between there and Orlando until these articles came out. Apparently they both have a major, 40 year old 6 lane highway that's over capacity and wants something done for the same amt of money. ONly difference is, cincy freaks out about 150,000 cars, Orlando's got 250,000 cars on theirs.
You got to be kidding me. They fought against raising the county sales tax by half a cent! Do you think they're going to want toll roads??
>>>The first attempt to secure a funding source for light rail failed miserably two years ago when 68 percent of Hamilton County residents voted against a half-cent increase in the county sales tax.<<<<
I bet if i followed the vote, there would've been the usual talk of, people won't use LRT(yet the highway it would've gone down is at 150% capacity or so, yeah they sure wont use it!), or some BS about the size of the city and all that.
It's amazing how you can rig an election with senseless propaganda. I'm tired of it for one.
And why does everyone need 10billion dollars for the cities infrastructure. What a magic number. Too bad we dont' have an administration who gives a damn about us.
They don't have money for the Lightrail but they have plenty for highway construction. Insanity.
Can't say it is a non-Republican administration. You are what you do. What do Rockefeller, Lindsay, Pataki, Giuliani, Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II have in common? Just two things. They are Repubicans, and they ran up massive debt. Screwing the young seems to be the one core value that unites that party.
I was going to hold my disrespect until they got him in the ground at
least - but I am fed up with with the sideshow of hauling the carcass
here and there like some P.T. Barnum attraction. And it's ALL ABOUT DEATH to these clowns, and the sooner the better it seems ... Terrorists, Stem cells, "Rights of the unborn, but once you're born you're on your own", "rationing of healthcare" and "privatization of social security into an 'investment fund' for the Exxons of the world."
Nothing says "give up all hope" like the republicans these days. But they're not just screwing the young, ask GRANDMA. They're screwing EVERYBODY (instead of just an intern) ... :(
"Back in 2000 a Republican friend warned me that if I voted for Al Gore and he won, the stock market would tank, we'd lose millions of jobs, and our military would be totally overstretched. You know what?
I did vote for Gore, he did win, and I'll be damned if all those things didn't come true!"
--James Carville
I just passed that quite to a friend, he'll get a kick out of that. He's a real republican too, not a phoney. though I only half get why.
China owns our industry, Saudi owns our butts, and our dollar ain't worth a plum nickel. Yep, the Reagan revolution, bringing us OSAMA, SADDAM, tuna and Taiwan is a GREAT improvement. Don't get me wrong, Ronnie was a fun guy and a hell of a nice person, he really MEANT well and actually BELIEVED the scripts he was handed - but I TALKED with him, I worked with him as a member of the press - he had NO idea of where he really was, and that made him INVALUABLE to the shadow neocons. REAL conservatives like Barry Goldwater and others SHUDDERED at how out of it the boy was.
REAL republicans know a schtupping when they're being handed out. Sorta like republican PRIMARIES ... "we won't have ANY of that - we have a BIG tent, so long as you march in lockstep." I'm sorry, REAL republicans believe in personal betterment, "BUCK STOPS HERE, *I* phucked up and HERE'S how I'm gonna fix it" ... TELL me the current "regime" (or RONNIE) took ANY responsibility when they screwed up. Nope, all swept under.
Don't mind me, I've *REALLY* had my fill of the sideshow. What was it Rush was fond of saying? "Symbolism over substance?" Ronnie was a nice enough actor - but the people AROUND him were downright EVIL. Ronnie was just a handpuppet to a bunch of SERIOUS whackjobs. And YES, they DO believe that the world is going to end, so screw everybody. That's the SADDEST part. Burned more than enough videotape in all the National Religious Broadcasters ("NRB") conventions in deecee documenting this nonsense. Why WOULD they care if they're personally planning to end the world?
And what WAS it that "Revelation" said about charlatans? :)
Your pal,
Fred
One of the things that irked me to NO END during my own life is that I've been seriously down on my luck here and there over the years. The *ONE* thing that "welfare" WON'T do is a *LOAN* ... out of money, out of work, but a year or LESS from now, back on top again. "Welfare" will NOT buy you a suit, will NOT front you upstate because there's no kids, no wife, etc ... "go live in a treehouse" ... and I *DID* ... But if "social services" made it possible to BORROW, then government wouldn't have huge deficits, and poor people would have a shot at a better job, JUST through the benefit of borrowing a SUIT for a job interview. Barry and I got into stuff like that. Some folks need some help to climb out. Traditional values were dependency (democrats) or "phuck YOU" (republicans) ... NOBODY did what needed to be done.
But yes, we've got HOSERS. Remember when "balanced budget" MEANT something? Sadly, Clinton did it, even if kicking and screaming. Whattabout brainboy? Reagan had the same conservative defect. :(
And what ABOUT "America First?" If we EVER get the rest of the world honked off at us, why ... they could cut off our SUPPLIES! Nobody is promoting "MADE in America" ... in fact, almost NOTHING is these days beyond "McJobs." HUH?!?!?! :(
I honestly don't remember much of Ronnie, sounds like he at least had some vision. But I love the SNL skit with him acting senile to all the photo ops, and the second the girl scouts left the oval office, he would take his war planners out of the closet and start dictating to them these intricate plans. Very funny.
But Reagan was VERY insightful back in California. Most of his writings (the lucid ones) date back to that time period BEFORE he was elected, not after. He's been on that spiral for a LONG time, and was already pretty much in the bag by the time he dealt with the Panthers at the Capitol, or ordered the gassing of Berkeley students as Governor. I was *THERE* with him as he was sworn in after welcoming the hostages home in 1981 ... at his inauguration, he asked for the director to tell him WHICH "TAKE" it was! (reality in Hollyweird AND in the White House was that you ALWAYS told him it was the THIRD so he wouldn't flub his line - the first two were "gimmes" to him, again NO JOKE) ... he was a PUPPET, PROUD to be one, and he was WELL taken advantage of. He didn't care, HE got paid. And he had a BLAST! It was his JOB. :)
Apologies extended to neocons, but that REALLY IS the truth ... I was there for it all, and had numerous opportunities as a journalist. The "Which take is this one?" was satellite fed to the usual religious broadcaster suspects - CBN, TBN, PTL and a few others - BUT CBS News also bagged the feed and it resided in their archives. Might STILL be a copy of "Iran Hostages feed" on Inauguration day dubbed off. But the "Reagan Library" impounded all original copies of videotape. It was Cheney's DEMAND. But then again, I know the old breadcasting axiom of Senator Everett Dirksen - "Is CBS here yet?" Heh.
Reagan was pretty damned sharp ... BEFORE he was Governor of California ... that's the point. By the time he was in the White House, he REALLY BELIEVED he was playing a role - the skit was almost accurate. Cheney ran the show THEN too.
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HEre
Bryan Maloney used to catch the Number 34 there every morning. But it sure wasn't easy.
The nearest crosswalks are a half-mile away. The stop, meanwhile, is little more than a metal sign nailed to a telephone pole. No shelter. No sidewalks. Not even a storm drain. And then there is the wait for the bus itself, which Maloney says is sometimes a half-hour late.
But the 37-year-old Indianapolis laboratory technician, who now hitches a ride with his wife every morning to his job Downtown at the Institute of Psychiatric Research, still counts himself a member of the transit devoted. Despite the hassle, he takes the bus home from work whenever he gets the chance.
-------
I'm noticing a pattern on every city doing and saying the exact same thing, and seeing a city fail to do it's plans and reading about one in the beginning stages, you notice a huge problem when they fail.
1) If monorails have been operating for the past 100 years (Wuppertal) why call it futuristic?
2) What is monorail-like?
Mass transit alternatives moving along smoothly in Las Vegas
ASSOCIATED PRESS
LAS VEGAS (AP) - While the ballyhooed Las Vegas Monorail continues test runs, it's another system of fast-moving bullet-shaped cars that will open to the public later this month and become southern Nevada's first rapid transit system.
It's a high-tech express bus line called Metropolitan Area Express, or MAX, that's among a trio of new rapid transit systems aimed at reducing the Las Vegas area's seemingly single-minded dependence on cars.
After MAX begins service June 30 along Las Vegas Boulevard North, ahead of the monorail, which opens later this summer, it's likely other MAX routes eventually will sprout up around town.
And planners are looking at building a light rail line, nicknamed "CAT Rail," linking downtown Las Vegas to Henderson, North Las Vegas and possibly beyond.
"The future looks exciting for us," said Curtis Myles, deputy general manager of the Regional Transportation Commission, which oversees the area's Citizens Area Transit mass transit service.
Although receiving far less attention than the tourist-carrying monorail, MAX and the CAT Rail plans are far more likely to have greater relevance to area commuters who are the target customers.
But the big question remains: Will anybody ditch their car to catch a ride? CAT is betting the answer will be yes.
"The goal is not to just put out a service because the vehicles are nice," Myles said. "It's to provide an attractive alternative to people driving in a single-occupancy vehicle."
Planners believe the area's growing traffic congestion and sprawl are slowly creating a market of commuters who wouldn't think of leaving their cars at home to catch a bus, but who might consider more direct and faster rapid transit service.
The MAX buses will use optically-guided computers to pull snugly against passenger platforms, where commuters will buy tickets from automated kiosks. The top speed will be 50 mph - same as the monorail - but when stops are figured in, the average will be closer to 20 mph.
Ideas for CAT Rail aren't as high-tech as the monorail, using resources already in place. For starters, RTC officials hope to use existing, lightly-used Union Pacific Railroad tracks in the southeastern valley.
A feasibility study is expected to conclude later this month, but Myles said one conclusion is already obvious.
"What we've discovered is rail works good because there's rail there."
A first phase would involve a 14-mile section of track, running from around the Nevada State College at Henderson to a new downtown Las Vegas transit center.
If CAT Rail gets the go-ahead from RTC and Union Pacific leaders later this year, that segment could be ready for light rail service as early as 2009. A second phase could be completed sometime after 2012 and would run north from downtown.
Information from: Las Vegas Review-Journal
This is one for the archives
And I like this van
A "real" LRV line will cost about a billion. With Bush and the NeoCons, that will never happen. In fact, don't be surprised if they defund this trolley for bus service.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=309&item=6301089177&rd=1&ssPageName=WD2V
Seems we actually agreee on something. LOL - Actually anyone who chooses graffiti as a form of expression, is showing disrespect to all. It is a blatant slap in the face of the general public. it sucks up funds that can go else where, not just in transit and for the police
-Chris
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOL!
In addition, does anyone have photos of the yard? I haven't quite gathered the courage to ask a motorman to let me ride in the front car of the (C) train to see into it while the train is reversing.
Thanks,
-Julian
*that* is NOT revenue track, and so unlike City Hall, he *could* get in trouble for doing that, and there likely is a tower with a supervisor in there who would see it, and besides, who is to say that that will be the next train back out agian.
Having said that mouthful, why not built a passenger station at the GeoWash BusTerm as was intended to be.
Elias
Rich Panse sent me one he took from the MOD trip mentioned in this thread, I hadn't put it up yet but I just now did.
click here
-Julian
At the north side of the plant: 7731-7732-7733-7734-7735
At the south side of the plant: 7760-7759-7758-7757
Keep your eyes a-peeled, these cars are almost down here...
SAS
til next time
til next time
I heard the reefing program is done, but don't be surprised if the some more R33 ML's and R36WF's head to Florida or Carolina this summer as the R142S comes in.
THE REEFING PROGRAM IS DONE
THE REEFING PROGRAM IS DONE
THE REEFING PROGRAM IS DONE
THE REEFING PROGRAM IS DONE
THE REEFING PROGRAM IS DONE
THE REEFING PROGRAM IS DONE
THE REEFING PROGRAM IS DONE
THE REEFING PROGRAM IS DONE
THE REEFING PROGRAM IS DONE
THE REEFING PROGRAM IS DONE
THE REEFING PROGRAM IS DONE
THE REEFING PROGRAM IS DONE
PS I think what they did to the HB/JFK "A" station is a disgrace!
wayne
Click the thumbnail...
....C# anyone?
THE REEFING PROGRAM IS DONE
--Mark
R160 training program?
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
At the south side of the plant: 7760-7759-7758-7757
WTF kinda sequence is that? What happened to 7736 through 7755? and shouldn't 7756 be with 7760-7759-7758-7757? Is Kawasaki smokin the kalamari or what?
David
David
wayne
This is the first time I've heard your "version" of the rumor.
But this was the first time I heard that *specifically* all of the R-142S's would go to Corona, along with the remainder of R-142A's on the (4), and a couple of R-142A's from the (6).
Unless you are saying that I'm blind or I cannot see very well, cuz I saw VERY clearly the car #s were 7731-7735...
SAS
Call me ignorant, but I never knew that NYC's subway cars were manufactured so close to the city. That's good to know.
Mark
Chuck Greene
See you on the 19th!
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
No date has been announced for the end of bustitution of SEPTA's trolley lines 10 and 15.
Photo of SEPTA Route 10 trolley on last day of trolley service before June 13 bustitution.
Chuck Greene
Chuck kinda blended in with the woodwork when I took NJT photos from NJT property.
Chuck Greene
Which of the many transit events will you be attending next weekend? You have a number of choices as I am sure you know...
-Broadway Buffer
til next time
If its a pitcher's game, usually close to 3 hours, some cut it less than that. A hitters' game and you could be waiting at 161st for quite a while.
Much longer than it used to, and too long.
When I was a kid, an average game was 2 1/2 hours. Certain pitchers were known for under 2 hour games, if they were on. They worked fast and threw strikes. Three hours waa a long game.
Today three hours is shorter than average. Pitchers stare, and hitters talk a walk, after every pitch. They umpires could stop this. They don't.
Joe
http://subway.com.ru/06122004/
Well, say goodbye to rails under the Culver for once and forever...
:-(
That's actually the Verrazano Bridge.
Most of it is badly corroded.
G service on the Culver...
Great pics, historic really.
www,forgotten-ny.com
(Great photo by the way!)
'Nuff said, don't want to get into a big discussion about them here, it's been done elsewhere.
Fallen Flags
And while John's suggestion is good, remember, no option is better than having your own website. Trust me, you have maximum flexibility with that. Have you even registered a domain name?
Glad you enjoyed them. When I uploaded them, I didn't think that I would get the response that I got. I plan to upload a few more in the future. Keep a lookout.
Here's a couple of shots of it:
This one is between B60th and B44th St stations on the Far Rockaway "A" line:
This one is at the B60th St station with an R44 on the other track:
This is an R1 at Brighton Beach during an MOD trip:
I have about 16 albums in transitgallery.com on a variety of subject covering subways, buses, trolleys, LRVs, commuter trains and elevated structures from various cities and transit agencies.
You can click here for my albums in Transitgallery.com.
Hopefully you will find something of interest to you and enjoy them.
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. Also, let me know what you think.
Enjoy.
If you don't think they were right in rejecting a photo, you can appeal. This has worked for me many times in the past. You should be prepared to explain why the photo should have been accepted, and keep it civil. They won't like it if you just say something like "my photos should be accepted because they're obviously better than others on the site."
Good luck.
Now I have to dig them out and resubmit.
In general, I haven't had problems and I agree that the screeners, while human, usually make reasonable decisions.
Here are my submissions so far, BTW.
I find their "too dark" reasoning for rejection somewhat fishy. The other rejections I can understand, but most of the ones they reject for being "too dark" are, if anything, too bright!
I guess it's good that others give up on the site, because it means that those of us there have less "competition" for our photos.
I have 23 photos on their website, and yes, they have rejected quite a few of my pictures as well. Many of my rejections come back with "Bad motive" as the reason for rejection. I have no clue what that means, but I'm not obsessively desparate to put up most of my pics so I don't contest them. I'll admit that for the most part, they do have some pretty good photos, but some photos that are currently on the site really baffles me. One of the being this one:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=34169
A flash is one of the cardinal sins in photography. With as high as a standard that they supposedly hold, how they let this one slip by is beyond my knowledge. Also, although a blurred train can be artistic, this one IMO, is kinda pushing it:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=61120
Now this one is by far a better attempt at a blur
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=65353
Upper Level
F Express To 179th Street
V Local To 179th Street Or 71st Avenue
Q Local To 71st Avenue
Lower Level
E Express To Jamaica Center
R Local To Jamaica Center Or 71st Avenue
G Local To 71st Avenue
MIDDLE LEVEL (8 tracks):
The rest of the V trains all stop local on one pair of tracks, except nights, when they will be craned onto the LIRR Rockaway Line and equipped with horns to upset the NIMBYs
Second pair of tracks: F train express to somewhere in Nassau County
Third pair of tracks would be a monorail line
Fourth pair would see LIRR service to Belmont Park on non-Racedays only
LOWER LEVEL (5 tracks):
The P train would run on one pair of tracks to amuse Subtalkers.
A third track would be used by transit museum excursions shuttling between 67th Dr and Puritan Av.
The remaining pair of tracks would be used by a new Amtrak express Subway to Greenland. The president will ride the first train from New York Penn to a station in a Greenland glacier where they ran out of money before they could install access to the street. The banks would then reposess the tracks and trains and Dubya would be stranded.
No fear, the axis of evil suddenly launch a weapon of mass destruction that had been warp-speed-locked on Dubya, destrroy the entire mass of the glacier and Bush flies through the sky riding a pig that has mysteriously appeared back in triumph to Washington and decides to give the naughty bad NYC subway to Halliburton.
And they all lived happily ever after...
When 2nd Ave opens, I'd shift the V as the extra express while restoring G local service.
:-) Andrew
Yea, its kind of a dumb joke but what the hell.
-Chris
:-) Andrew
What was the cause of the madness that compelled me to actually record the 2 train lady (I know that I said that i'd never do it) ?
They were recorded under quite possibly the worst possible conditions for recording R142 announcements, that my new mic did a nice job of compensating for.
The Times sq bound 2 express train
Did you happen to catch an R-142 on the (1)?
After that ordeal, I analyzed the incident are figures out MISTAKES WERE MADE. First, the rescue train should have pulled us back to Delanco, then the passengers should have removed from the disabled train and sent to the other platform so we could get on the next scheduled northbound. This would have inconvenienced the passengers no more than 45 minutes, instead of the nearly two hours this mess took. The disabled train would have limped back to the shops at 36th St, instead of limping all the way to Trenton. Second, there should be better communication between operators and the control center. I think the control center had no clue of how to get the train off the track in an expedient amount of time. And last, but not least, they should have a rescue bus [like they did in the initial days of operations] ready on a moments notice, so riders can complete their trip ASAP. Also they should find out why the 11:45 was cancelled, and they should tell the passengers PRONTO!
We took the next southbound to Rand, again without incident.
Chuck Greene
Larry,RedbirdR33
Chuck Greene
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
PS: IF you didn't get one of the timetables with the 15 minute headway and would like one e-mail me.
That must have been insanity with all those people jammed like sardines. It must have been a nightmare.
Why didn't they just drop you at a station and got a bus to pick you all up for Camden? Unbelievable.
I'm telling you right now, they should have electrified the RiverLine instead of using the Diesel motor.
http://www.njtransit.com/ne_pressrelease.jsp?PRESS_RELEASE_ID=1223
Yet another Bombardier success story, huh?
I happened to take my first River Line trip on that same day, leaving Trenton at, IIRC, 12:15. Everything went well, although I did note meeting NB cars at somewhat irregular intervals. An echo of the accident mentioned, I presume?
On my way back late at night, at some point we waited for the opposite-direction car for what seemed like ages (I fell asleep). We were some 10-15 min late into Trenton.
6 rail steps:
1) Hi/Sou Ken to Earl's Court (Dist)
2) Earl's Court to Heathrow (Pic)
[fly to JFK]
3) Airtrain to Howard Beach
4) Howard Beach to Bway - Nassau (A)
5) Fulton St to Pacific St (R)
6) Pacific St to CI (D)
Bus from outside my house to Bedford Bus Station (short walk to the train station); Thameslink train Bedford-Gatwick Airport; Continental Airlines Gatwick-Newark; Newark Airtrain to the Newark Airport train station; NJT Newark Airport to Penn Station in NYC; one trip left for a subway or bus ride to wherever my destination in Midtown or Downtown NYC might be.
wayne
wayne
til next time
-Chris
Made by Chris Slaight
Made by Chris Slaight
-Chris
How'd you make that?
Here are some of my "works" ;)
I also had a 2 to Flatbush on an R46 that was perfect, but can't find it.
Southbound G to Coney Island
Leave Court Sq 3:09pm
21 St 3:11
Greenpoint 3:14
Nassau 3:16
Metropolitan 3:18
Broadway 3:20
Flushing 3:21
Myrtle/Willoughby 3:23
Bedford/Nostrand 3:25
Classon 3:26
Clinton/Washington 3:28
Fulton 3:29
Hoyt/Schermerhorn 3:32
Bergen 3:34
Carroll 3:35
Smith/9 3:38
4 Av 3:40
7 Av 3:41
15 St/Prospect Park 3:43
Fort Hamilton 3:45
Church 3:47
Ditmas 3:49
18 Av 3:51
Avenue I 3:52
Bay Pkwy 3:53
Avenue N 3:55
Avenue P 3:56
Kings Hwy 3:58
Avenue U 4:00
Avenue X 4:02
Neptune 4:03
West 8 St 4:05
Arrive Stillwell 4:07pm
Total time=57 minutes
Northbound G to Court Square
Leave Stillwell 5:06pm
West 8 St 5:08
Neptune 5:09
Avenue X 5:11
Avenue U 5:13
Kings Hwy 5:14
Avenue P 5:16
Avenue N 5:17
Bay Pkwy 5:18
Avenue I 5:20
18 Avenue 5:21
Ditmas 5:23
Church 5:24
Fort Hamilton 5:26
15 St/Prospect Park 5:29
7 Avenue 5:31
4 Avenue 5:33
Smith/9 5:35
Carroll 5:36
Bergen 5:38
Hoyt/Schermerhorn 5:40
Fulton 5:41
Clinton/Washington 5:43
Classon 5:44
Bedford/Nostrand 5:45
Myrtle/Willoughby 5:47
Flushing 5:49
Broadway 5:50
Metropolitan 5:51
Nassau 5:54
Greenpoint 5:55
21 Street 5:58
Arrive Court Square 5:59
Total time=53 minutes
And a few pics; including a wild card for show. Enjoy!
The wild card, a R68A on the D.
NF 935 B68
NF 954 B35
R68 2900 (Q)
R32 3399 (E)
R46 5574 (G)
R68A 5173 (Q)
R46 6138 (G)
NF 855 B61
RTS 4644 B44 LTD
O7 7597 B8
US Open Redbird (hauling trash) spotted at 96th.
Hell, I wanted to go out and ride the friggin' cyclone -- But nooooooooo!
For the record, Sir Ronald of McDonald was hoping to get arrested. David and I didn't want to spend the night in prison.
Then I remembered that I was sleepy.
French friends...eaten??? How big was this rodent?
I thought it was Bubba who'd have their backs :)
I was asked if I was lost because I was hanging around the terminal a little too long for their tastes. Once by a C/R, and another time by a station cleaner.
I also ate dinner in the terminal. I must've been hanging around there for a good hour.
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/13/nyregion/thecity/13fyi.html
If you cannot understand the method, BMTman will be giving an explanation over the pa system on his first run on the 1st & 3rd Wednesdays of each month.
(If I was left alone with a subway train, I'd be playing with the rollsigns myself.)
:-) Andrew
W
to Beach 44/Frank Ave.
via Nassau St.
til next time
All of this will be posted on my website(clickhere) soon.
Note: Bus photos are below/after Annadale pics.
Annadale
Bus pics
-Chris
(minus the express ones)
D to Brighton Beach!
Cool. Are you in high school? I go to Tottenville. Do you ever get tired of the Farrel HS crowding? (Also, do you go to the dentist Dr. Graziano? The dental lab I work at makes dentures for him.)
-Chris
Zach
-Chris
The extended headways are required for the Bronx only, but to keep up the same level of service on 7th Ave they change the north terminal for 2 out of 3 trains.
Sometimes the GO has them go to 137/B'way and another GO will have them go to Lenox.
Last time it worked was:
(1) Normal
(2) Flatbush Ave to 137 St local Chambers to 137.
(2) 34 St to WPR express 34 St to 96 St.
(3) Express Chambers to 96 St Northbound,
Express 96 St to 42 St southbound then local to Chambers.
You wish it was the G's regular route. LOL, not in a million year buddy. Althought I do look foward to it's return to Church Ave in 2006. And I hope to see an E going peak only to Kings Hwy in 2006 also. But a G to Coney Island regularly?...Nah G people should not be given a gift like that. I mean considering they've had their service cut on Queens Blvd, why should it be extended that much further in another direction? LOL!! ;-)
-Broadway Buffer
There was a gap in "A" service about 10:30 Saturday night, so one of the "F" trains, an R46s ran EXPRESS to Euclid Ave. Of course, I had to be on the "F" train before it-damn.
It would make more sense to send the F local to Euclid but then to extended it to Lefferts or Far Rock.
Seriously though, a local did arrive at Euclid Ave about 2-3 minutes after the express "F".
Buzzzzz wrong. That F train was so late it wasn't even funny. That's why it went express.
2. There was no thirty minute gap in A service Saturday night around that time. C'mon now, "well, it felt like 30 minutes." The longest delay I recall was 20, and considering a 12 minute headway its not really a significant delay.
3. The TA does not, I repeat DOES NOT make up for a gap in express service when a local provides service to the same stations. Even the T/Ds have more sense than that. If the people choose not to get on because its a local that's their problem. They could have been home by the time the express comes.
However an express will be used to make up for a gap in local service.
Think:
Have you ever seen a C or E run express on 8th Avenue because the A is running late? No.
Have you ever seen a C or E run express on 8th Avenue because that train is late? Yes.
This "Its the TA of course it doesn't make sense" crap goes a little far sometimes. Especially when you don't know the whole story.
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
Bottom line neither one of us were in the dispatchers' office when the decision was made to run the "F" as an express, nor do we know why the "A" was delayed.
But I do know was that there was an "F" express Saturday night and there was a half hour delay in southbound "A" service Saturday night. Furthermore I have no reason to lie to you or anybody else on this board. If you choose not to believe me, then so be it.
Are you sure about that?
But I know where I was and I know that there was a 1/2 delay on "A" service and an "F" express.
"But I know where I was and I know that there was a 1/2 delay on "A" service and an "F" express."
So? I never denied there was an F express. I actually agreed on that point.
I still don't get your logic of how because the F ran express it filled in for A service and it because of a gap in A service. The F arriving soon after on the local doesn't prove anything. The late F could have had door problems. Could have gone BIE.
Your F was probably late too. All Fs were late. Just because yours went local and the one behind may have gone express doesn't prove there was some gap in A service.
Nobody is asking you to get my logic or agree to it. It was what I believed happened. Granted, it does not make it fact AT ALL, but I do have the right to make what ever asuumptions that come to mind.
> You act like it is a scientific fact that the "A" cannot have a 30 minute delay.
Ok, learn to read. I didn't say it wasn't possible. Totally possible. What I said that ON THAT NIGHT THERE WAS NO SUCH DELAY.
> And as far as if I have seen a "C" run up 8th Ave express when the "A" was running late, the answer is definately, without a doubt YES.
Can you prove this? Not even the dumbest T/D will send a local train express to make up for a gap in express service. A T/D will have a local run express when that train is extremely late and there's another train with the ability to provide the same local service behind it. Its called a "run".
What is this, The People's Court? I am going to say this again. You asked me a question and I answered it. In the 30+ years that I have been riding the subway, I have personally, on several occasions been on the "C/CC" when the conductor would say "due to a delay in "A" service, this train will operate express".
This was what was explained to the passengers during those times. So that is what I went by. What am I supposed to do, get off at the nearest dispatcher's office and ask "is this really the reason why the "C" went express, or is there another reason" and demand written proof? So no, I don't have written proof.
All I can say is that it happened to me. I have no reason to lie to you or anybody else on this board. If you choose not to believe me, then have fun with. Trust me, it's not taking anything from me.
What about the reverse -- sending an express train local to make up for a gap in local service? Are there specific guidelines of when this is an appropriate action or is it left to the T/D's discretion? Some T/D's seem incredibly reluctant (or are they simply not paying attention?), while others are more reasonable.
I was once on a southbound 1 that had door problems at 125 and 116. The T/D sent a 2 in front of us down the local and then sent us express. That didn't help me reach my destination (and it was an incredibly long wait for the next train, given that we were late and it was the tail end of rush hour), but at least nobody lost any service. I wish T/D's would do stuff like that more often.
Wouldn't it be helpful if the Location or Subject was the first word in the title ie: Ft. Lauderdale, Grade Signals, Z LIne Delays.
Any comments ? :-)
Matt
Yes, I would agree that many subject titles are very vague. Not many people modify the heading when they change the direction of a thread.
What I find especially distressing are thread titles that are in poor taste. One that comes to mind has to do with farting. I think that title and its discussion reflect poorly on www.nycsubway.org. This message board is part of a very serious body of information about the subway that David Pirmann with the help of others has assembled. We are guests in his house and should show some sensitivity to other people. I am dead serious about this matter and would be quite unhappy if people respond with one-liner quips, which happens to be another issue that troubles me here.
Heypaul: I couldn't agree with you more.
Larry,RedbirdR33
No - but maybe a key word as I sugested.
More to come...
WTF did I miss out on today...
egad!! The pics don't load... BUT --I CAN-- live without seeing
an Rmadillo on the 1... such #$@#$@#$$#@ travesty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sounds like my ex-girlfriend ...
Why not? Why pay for new rollsigns when the old ones work just as fine?
The only change came when the 9 was "born," many years ago.
So I assume that numbers 9 through 13 were on the 1988 signs.
...as a Broadway Local? <.
http://www.nycrail.com/rollingstock/r27_30.htm
(excuse the poor side scan, I didn't get a chance to rescan it on my newer scanner)
Regards,
Jimmy
Ho-ho, hee-hee, I remember seeing you in that scrap yard!
The actual money trains are nothing more but retired SMEE cars painted the Division C yellow.
Somehow, this has a little more glamour too it....
There were about a dozen real ones used for the filming, brought out to Los Angeles. There were also a few fake ones, studio-built copies of the real ones but with some details done wrong. They even built a fake subway for the filming, it was on the site of a former Southern Pacific freight yard near Chinatwon section of Los Angeles, the present Gold Line runs right through the location! No signs of the fake subway exist any more.
I keep a look out for more G.O. like this some time down the road again, since they still have alot more work to be done on the North end of the Burgen St Interlock. This is the only way that I could think of doing it since trains can't go hought the eara when they do this work.
Robert
I got photos of the G at every stop from Smith-9th south, except 18 Av, Av I, Av N, Bay Pkwy, & Av X.
It was my privilege to be your tour guide on your Philly trip.
Bob
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
But even if so, why 5am? Except, that is, for a diversion on the IRT in Brooklyn (until 5am tomorrow) and a diversion on the 7 (until 8am today).
Wait, the PDF disagrees with the HTML. So maybe not.
K: Discontinued on 12/11/88, replaced with expanded C service. Was redundant after the decision to expand Fulton St. express service to all day weekdays was made.
Diamond R: Discontinued 11/23/87. Was made redundant when the M was shifted from the Brighton to West End lines. The official notice placed in stations, IIRC, stated the elimination was to prevent confusion and ease congestion on the 4th Ave corridor.
Truncated means "shortened" or "simplified".
The BROWN R was eliminated on 11/23/87. The May 1987 map is the first (and only) map to display it as a brown route, not an offshoot of the regular yellow R.
I'm not sure this was a good thing. Does demand along Fulton St justify express service? Today, Manhattan demand and Brooklyn demand for C service seem unbalanced and yet both Branches receive the same service.
Diamond R: Discontinued 11/23/87. Was made redundant when the M was shifted from the Brighton to West End lines. The official notice placed in stations, IIRC, stated the elimination was to prevent confusion and ease congestion on the 4th Ave corridor.
There was a lot of confusion then mostly because of yellow and brown and orange. The W instead of a yellow D was a huge improvement when 6 Av tracks over the Manhattan Br were last unavailable. The congestion complaint looks overstated though. If the number of cars allowed it shouldn't J service operate to 95 St rush hours? That might allow more R service during those times to terminate in Manhattan better serving all. Some argued in another topic that extended J service would be preferred to present R service by Brooklyn riders bound for lower Manhattan.
During the week, all day express service is justified. The C in Manhattan never runs on a line alone, supplemented by B service north of 59th and E service south of 59th, so service is appropriatley unbalanced.
There was a lot of confusion then mostly because of yellow and brown and orange. The W instead of a yellow D was a huge improvement when 6 Av tracks over the Manhattan Br were last unavailable. The congestion complaint looks overstated though. If the number of cars allowed it shouldn't J service operate to 95 St rush hours? That might allow more R service during those times to terminate in Manhattan better serving all. Some argued in another topic that extended J service would be preferred to present R service by Brooklyn riders bound for lower Manhattan
Back then, the N ran local on 4th Ave during the week. The diamond R was specifically meant to give 4th Ave express service a convenient transfer to Nassau St. service (remember the M was on the Brighton line and the Atlantic Ave/Pacific St transfer didn't exist until the late 1970's). The diamond R trains never ran as depicted on the map (almost all I rode began/ended at Metropolitan Ave). Simplicity dictated that the M alone was sufficient to provide service to lower Nassau.
-Broadway Buffer
FYI, the Rock Park Shuttle for NYCTA internal purposes is still called the H.
-Broadway Buffer
#3 West End Jeff
Seriously, that idea is the worst for the Rockaways. It took almost 40 years for the Rockaway residents to have the TA get rid of the round-robin shuttle and believe me if they brought it back, there will be plenty of hell raised.
Also with the housing boom that Rockaway is going through as well as politicians and community leaders trying to attract market rate homeowners to these new beachfront homes-whose asking price is anywhere from $395,000 to $550,000, it will never happen. It is too much money and politics at stake here.
It ran from Euclid to Rockaway Park, then to Far Rockaway (by the extra little eastbound track connecting the Rockaway Park track to the Far Rockaway track), then back to Broad Channel and Euclid. Hammels is the village name where the extra piece of track is. So every trip passed each station twice and inbound RP riders had to go to FR first, wasting a lot of time and outbound FR riders had to go to RP first, also wasting a lot of time.
how long is the trip between RP and FR?
The same thing happens to passengers en route to Bklyn & Manhattan at B. 67th St. That same train they got off of going to Far Rockaway is the same one that they get on.
I'm glad somebody realizes how ridiculous the whole thing was.
A lot of Queens subway station at numbered street also have a name. For example 104th St-Oxford Av, 46th St-Bliss St, 88th St-Boyd Ave.
I'm not sure, but I believe that when the stations opened, the powers to be attached the "named street" by naming the station after somebody. As far as I as I know, there is no Oxford Av, Bliss St or Boyd Ave. But as far as B90th St-Holland, there is a Holland Ave-a block away from the station, but where the station is located was known as Holland section years ago.
104th Street was Oxford Avenue, 46th Street was (and still partially is) Bliss Street, and 88th Street was Boyd Avenue, and so forth.
Regards,
Jimmy
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
In fact, they just had a multi-weekend GO two weeks ago.
I know that this is a bustalk subject, but I am going to respond anyway. Your statement is so untrue. The Q22 runs until 1:15 am every night, and the Q113 last trip to Jamaica is 2:30 am, though definately not 24 hours.
And it's confusing having a blue (A), a blue diamond-A, and a blue (S) going to the same general area.
I think most shittles are not gray.
The 63 St-Broadway shuttle was yellow.
The only reason I can see for this is that they don't want the passengers to confuse the Lefferts Shuttle with the Rockaway Park Shuttle, which has used the gray "S" on it's trains for years.
Go figure.
i can't believe i'm getting closer to my daily limit with this post......
what is so confusing about having blue circle A and blue diamond A, the only between them is the shape.
Another interesting thing about the new Map: No commuter rail!
:-o Andrew
-RJM
-Chris
H was is discontinued in March 1992
K was discontinued in Dec 1988
Q diamond is Discontinued as of 3/22/04
Possibly #9 was be drop before fall 2004
H was is discontinued in March 1992
K was discontinued in Dec 1988
Q diamond is Discontinued as of 3/22/04
Possibly #9 was be drop before fall 2004
2. The Diamond "R" via. Nassau was discontinued in May 1987 when all "R" trains were rerouted to Forest Hills and began using R-46's.
Tony
I forgot the train, possibly the N, it was in the tunnel.
Anyways, on the sidings I saw 2 R trains, 1 of them had the brown diamond R sign. That was a weird sight.
Then I forgot how long later, I saw it again.
So either the person was lazy to goto the correct R sign, or was playing with the past.
I have several of these signs for both systems that I got back in scrapping days--i.e., 40 years ago, so they are all more or less the same age. I moved a lot over the years and these were sometimes stored under less than ideal conditions.
Well, some of the BMT signs were worn or faded from service while others looked brand new; ditto the IRT. How have they fared after 40 years? The IRT signs are almost universally pitted, rusted and flaking, the BMT signs look pretty much as good as when they were in service.
Why? I don't know. Maybe the metal composition? Or preparation (like an undercoat)? Quality of the paint? Anyone familiar?
Thank You for writing to Metro. This message is an automatic response to let you know that your e-mail has been received. A representative
should be in contact with you soon. For reference, your case number is
XXXXX
Metro would like to remind you that customers play an important role in
keeping our system safe.
Please remember to be watchful for . . .
*Unusual persons or activities
*Unattended bags, packages, boxes, backpacks, etc.
*Persons photographing, sketching or documenting activity at or around
Metro stations
*Odd smells, fumes or smoke
*Anyone carrying a sprayer, aerosol canister that could be used to
spread dangerous substances
*Customers getting sick
If you see anything unusual, report it immediately to the Station
Manager or to Transit Police at 202-962-2121.
I can't wait for Vegas to ban photography at the monorail
With all those people breathing down their neck in "The Nation's Capitol" is it any wonder that they include the warnings ? After all it doesn't cost anything to program them in.
I like to think, though, that people will draw a difference between an obvious rail enthusiast like myself (photographing openly and will happily and with enthusiasm tell you some tidbit of information about Metro), and a terrorist not trying to attract attention to themselves who would probably wear a hidden camera anyway.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
>>And click here for my website with the new map.
-Chris
One minor thing I've noticed is on the Orange Line, you have "Courthouse" but it is really "Court House" even though if you enter this station name on the ride guide, you have to put in Courthouse. But, on the WMATA map and in the stations, they have it broken down to two words.
Very good though.
Mark
Also the Official name is RONALD REAGAN WASHINGTON NATIONAL AIRPORT.
Lol I bet you're pulling your hair out now lol.
Your stretching of the Southern F Route Green Line puts Branch Avenue further south then even WMATAs out of scale system map, also the Capitol Beltway is closer to both Greenbelt and New Carrollton then the way shown on your map. Why is National Airport in blue text?
John
An interesting anecdote about the WMATA map being out of scale. I was on the Red Line this week coming home from work and some kids got on at White Flint. I overheard them looking at the map and they were commenting on how far apart Takoma and Fort Totten supposedly were because they were basing their conversation off the map.
Isn't the longest distance between stations from National Airport to Braddock Road or from Shady Grove to Rockville?
Mark
see ya Saturday
Van Dorn Street (J02) is 20,125’ (6134.1m) from King Street (C13)
Springfield-Franconia (J03)is 18,692’ (5697.32m) from Van Dorn Street (J02
Shady Grove (A15) is 14,155’ (4314.44m) from Rockville (A14).
Minnesota Avenue (D09) is 11,024’ (3360.12m) from Stadium Armory (D08)
Braddock Road (C12) is 3,917’ (1193.9m) from National Airport (C10).
Come Saturday you will have all the distances between station, with the exception of the yet to open stations on the G Route Blue line extension.
John
Yes
Benning Road (G01) is 13,395’ (4082.8m) from Stadium Armory (D08)
John
-Chris
W/B via West End!
M/Q/D via Brighton!!
Your pal,
Fred
I didn't take photos today.
Where is that, CI yard?
-Chris
Yes, sometime in 2005, N will be fully, and permanently return to CI
*Note, when the D returns to the West End platform and the N goes back to the Sea Beach platform. the D will no longer have to run via single line approaching and leaving Coney, since it will NOT have to cross all the way over to any other platforms , but its own, so the ride in and out of Coney Is WILL be a little bit quicker....
D to Brighton Beach!!
Yeah! Skipping all SeaBeach stops.
> from Times Square to Stillwell Avenue
N starts in Astroia!
:-)
Mike
For me it's the IRT (8) Astoria-Times Sq
:-)
This line have seen a lot of lines in the last decades: West End T,
95 St RR/R, Sea Beach N, Brigthon QT/QB
I think only the Culver is the only one of the Brooklyn BMT lines, which
never had seen Astoria.
Was this the Astoria service when you left NYC?
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
wayne
wayne
Times Square? That hasn't been the Sea Beach's northern terminal since 1955!
#3 West End Jeff
-Bradway Buffer
P.S. You don't have to worry about Stillwell, you're gonna like it. They're about 2/3rds done. They've just begun to demolish the old West End platform. The entrance building (fronting on Surf) isn't done yet either. My only quibble is the modernistic "pod" lights at the north end of the station; they should have used the replica 1917 Dual Contracts lamps as they have done at Myrtle, Sheepshead Bay etc.
wayne
wayne
Your pal,
Fred
Honorable Mentions:
1) The French Connection I
2) King of New York
3) Nighthawks
Money Train was horrible!
Worth mentioning:
Beat Street
Wild Style
Body Rock
Fort Apache-The Bronx
NightHawks
Night Shift
Coming To America
C.H.U.D.
King Kong(Original)
Hell no:
Pelham 1-2-3(Remake)
Money Train
Just Another Girl On The IRT
Car 54, Where Are You?(Good flick, bad subway coverage)
The Cowboy Way
Godzilla
Mimick(The CR17 built in Coney Island, not. Only good things in the flick are the giant roaches and Charles S. Dutton)
Regards,
Jimmy
Here's a few more honorable mentions that were left out:
1) Saturday Night Fever
2) Sleepers
3) Coming to America
Terrible movie except for the real star of the movie R-17 # 6688. :-)
But there are Brooklynites who want to go to the Nassau Street Lion.
Elias
When they removed the W from running through the Montague tunnel into Brooklyn, the MTA promised enhanced service on the R. Have they not kept their promise?
Seems to me, I have heard that song before.
Like when the (R) service still went to Astoria.
The idea in those days was, rather than providing express service to Ft. Hamilton and to Astoria, they would run the (R) trains at Saturation Levels, but that would be the only service to either Astoria or to Ft. Ham. As far as I can recall, this has NEVER happened.
Unless Fourth Avenue *needs* more service, then I suspect that the TA has the Broadway Lion pretty well optimized.
Elias
I think that you have never been to Brooklyn on the 4th Avenue and that your idea is far from excellent. It sucks as bad as you think the R service does with all due respect. Do you realize that having another local on Fourth Ave is not helping anything. Its only going to make train traffic worse at 36 St. M trains area always held to let an approaching D train go first onto the West End. This caused delays with R service. As someone who transfers at 36 St almost every weekday, I can tell you that I've seen R's waiting stationary for M's to move out of the way for up to 10 mins a few times. Imagine how bad it would be would W trains causing even more traffic?
Now your idea could work under one of these two conditions.
1. DQ BrightonLines's idea of having the M back on the Brighton happens leaving more space for more local trains on fourth ave.
2. Eliminate the W and have an N diamond that runs all local from Gravesend to Astoria, but having some terminate at Whitehall St and some in Gravesend so the # of trains will not be as great on fourth ave.
-Broadway Buffer
Yeah I guess that would be better than an N diamond. But it would have to be equal number of W's terminating at Whitehall St as terminating at 86 St. The only reason why I suggested an N diamond is because it would have the exact same route as the N. Who knows, maybe there can be skip/stop serive, but I don't think it's nessasary.
-Broadway Buffer
Bill "Newkirk"
Funny if they did get a hold of the wallpaper and tried to bring down the Myrtle or Lexington El....a little bit too late....
Mark
They are very protective of that wallpaper design.
Karl, consider yourself very fortunate (right place at the right time). Many have tried to get that wallpaper (myself included) but Subway would give to anyone.
This shit is AWESOME. The videos might take a while to load, but their worth it. The photos are below.
>>Videos & Pix<<
-Chris
-Chris
2) On the Jamaica Center mezzanine and fare control area. All the suspended ceilings were removed with only the light fixtures still in place. The question is will Jamaica Center, both levels be rehabbed on account of the Airtrain project at Jamaica Station ?
3) Jamaica Center station in general has really gone to seed. It's looking like a modern day BMT Chambers St. Missing ceiling panels where a water leak was along with planks covering the lower level escalators doesn't look too good. Add to this numerous cracked ceramic floor tiles and peeling water damaged paint on the (J)(Z) level. This station was good looking when it first opened, but looks worse for wear. Maybe a rehab is in the wind.
4) If you are in Jamaica Station and you need a really clean restroom to use, use the one by the Airtrain turnstiles. No, you don't need to swipe a $5 Metrocard to use it. And they have a nice cold water fountain there. Beats using restroom behind the LIRR ticket office. That one is raunchy !
Bill "Newkirk"
Anyway, I remember that "LIRR" tiling well. That was one of the first attempts by the MTA to "recreate" decorative tiling (It was even more primitive than the old Essex mosaics from 1989!.
I agree, Sutphin station had really gone to seed. It really did look good when it opened, but certainly didn't age well. Come to think of it, it probably didn't look all that good in 1988 either, but at the time, it was "new", and the subway looked so bad that anything would look good. The orange is so dated. I kind of compare it to people that bought "harvest gold" appliances for their kitchen in the 70's and thinking they "looked" good. We have moved on to better things. (Not to mention the materials must have been really cheap considering that they did not wear well at all).
As for bathrooms, we sure have come a long way at Jamaica station. Does anyone remember the pit that the Jamaica men's room was like before? I don't mean the one with "stainless steel" fixtures from around 1988, I mean the one BEFORE that! What a pit! it would have rivaled the old STillwell men's room!
:-) Andrew
At any rate, why then is there no W on this sign?
The N to Ditmars was included on this sign probably because there was a number of R46 N trains running in late 1987, probably due to so many cars being out on GOH.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=516951
Didn't nearly all the bus routes in the area go up to the terminal at 165 St at one time? Was it the shift of the bus connections down to Archer Avenue that led to the E being shifted to Parsons/Archer? Which came first -- the chicken or the egg?
CG
Me too. 9 out of 10 times when using the LIRR, and not going to Penn Station, I use the East New York-Atlantic Ave subway connection rather than Jamaica. I too rarely use the Jamaica/Suthphin connection.
The TE raised the vent opening to try to prevent the fish water from the stores above. They still had to address the water inflow. at one point, a large plastic sheey with a drain was placed under the upper-level roof.
All the approach tracks are concrete ties and ballasted. Though no third rails are installed yet. Looks nice and impressive, check it out if you haven't done so.
Bill "Newkirk"
In the London mayoral election last Thursday, Ken Livingstone was re-elected for a second four-year term as Mayor of London. This had been in some doubt as the opinion polls were suggesting that the Conservative candidate, Steve Norris, was running him close, but in the end Ken emerged with a comfortable 55% to 45% lead. Given that Ken is now back in the Labour Party (having won as an Independent in 2000), and the Labour Party wasn't in general doing very well in last Thursday's elections, this has to be seen as an endorsement of his record over the last four years.
The relevance here, of course, is that he is pro-public transit. For practical reasons, this has mostly emerged as pro-bus in the short term, since the tube is essentially maxed out, but he supports rail expansion as well. Norris, on the other hand, would have scrapped the Congestion Charge, a measure which has discouraged car use in the centre of London and helped bus services there to be more reliable.
Peace,
ANDEE
Later on, Margaret Thatcher as Prime Minister removed the problem by abolishing the Greater London Council. (Imagine Pataki deciding to abolish the city government of New York City, and saying we'll just have the five borough councils.) Ken Livingstone then got elected to Parliament as Labour MP for Brent in northwest London, where he remained until 2001.
When the Labour Party was elected to government in 1997, it had a pledge to reintroduce an all-London tier of local government. This time it is called the Greater London Assembly, but also has a New York-style elected mayor. In 2000, the first time this new body was elected, Labour didn't choose Ken Livingstone as their candidate for mayor because he was too left-wing for Topny Blair's taste. He ran as an Independent and won. Earlier this year, he was re-admitted to the Labour Party, and last week ran as the Labour candidate, and won again. See: http://www.london.gov.uk/
The GLC version was a real “Red Ken”, spouting socialist nonsense (many paragraph with the word proletariat in them!). The new Ken seems in tune with the needs of London as a city.
The Congestion Charge is unpopular, but it’s working. Buses move through Central London faster. Concentration on more bus service makes sense, because there is room for capacity improvement.
Now East-West Crossrail, which is probably more important than North-South, given that it could provide some relief to the Central Line.
More power to him.
For £10 billion, Crossrail would be a major undertaking, and the routes of its southern branches are controversial. They might stand a better chance of getting the line built in increments, starting with the core section from Paddington to Liverpool Street. In order to get funding from the City, they might also have to include Heathrow and the Isle of Dogs. There is a plan along these lines by a consortium called London Regional Metro.
I welcome the congestion charge, and Red Ken now wants to make London "the Green capital of Europe". See ic Thewharf.
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/queens/nyc-subway0614,0,1367184.story?coll=nyc-manheadlines-queens
I'd hardly call that a "ped." accident, there are no pedestrians on the subway tracks, only trespassers.
Methinks the T/O of the leading train has some questions to answer.
Of course *he* whouldn't have any answers, because if he had seen anything, he would have stopped.
Did the ped fall from the leading train? It is a mystery as to how the deadder got there with out being seen.
Elias
Example of bad journalism right there. Did the second t/o stop his train then run over the man again? I assume not, but this is how the sentence construction makes it seem.
1) Operator see's man on tracks
2) Operator stops train
3) Operator calls for help
4) Operator runs the man over again
CG
Hell, if the second train operator really did run over the man again, I'd expect legal action against the MTA.
You can probably expect it just based on what the first train did to him. I'd be quite surprised if the TA/MTA don't get sued in 100% of their passenger fatalities.
CG
NOT A CHANCE! He doesn't have a leg to stand on!
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
... severed around 4pm?
Is that above or below the knee?? Let me check my "Gray's Anatomy"!!
AEM7
Jack
He's at it again and they caught him again:
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/25634.htm
"TRAIN IN THE NECK
By LARRY CELONA and DAN MANGAN
---------------------------------------------------------------------
June 14, 2004 -- Despite the city's post-9/11 security clampdown, a man notorious for posing as a transit worker and commandeering city subways and buses has been busted again — this time in a Queens rail yard carrying keys that would give him access to trains.
Darius McCollum, who's been arrested 20 times, first made headlines in 1981 at age 15 when he was nabbed after taking the controls of an E train and driving passengers along a six-stop ride to the World Trade Center.
On Friday, McCollum, 39, was just two months out of prison for another transit-related offense — and still on parole — when MTA police caught him at about noon in the Long Island Rail Road's Hoban Yards in Jamaica after they got a call about a suspicious person.
McCollum was caught with a transit worker's vest, a hard hat, and several sets of keys including engineer, universal and switch keys, said authorities.
The yards, used for equipment maintenance, are adjacent to another yard where LIRR trains are maintained.
McCollum's latest episode reveals security lapses within the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which recently announced it will spend another $100 million to boost protection of its system from terrorists.
The MTA previously made other upgrades in light of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, including increasing its police force and adding surveillance equipment.
Asked about the security lapse, MTA spokesman Tom Kelly said, "He got caught, right?"
Kelly said he did not know how McCollum acquired the keys and other transit paraphernalia, but added that "there is an investigation into how he came into the possession of some of the instruments that he had, some of the tools that he had."
McCollum, of the Lower East Side, was charged with attempted grand larceny, criminal impersonation, possession of stolen property, trespassing and possession of burglar tools, according to Queens District Attorney Richard Brown.
He was held in lieu of $250,000 bail after being arraigned.
McCollum's latest arrest saddened — but did not completely surprise — his supporters, who believe the mild-mannered man has Asperger's syndrome, a neurological disorder with autistic-like symptoms, including obsessive routines.
"This thing is almost inevitable," said McCollum's former lawyer, retired state Supreme Court Justice Alvin Schlesinger. "He's going to do it, and do it again, unless his problems are attended to."
McCollum's friend, theatrical director Jude Domski, said she was "devastated" by his latest arrest, which could send him to prison for a sixth time.
"It's horrible. He had so many people rooting for him to stay clear and clean of it," said Domski, who last year directed "Boy Steals Train," a play based on McCollum.
McCollum was paroled in November, but soon went back to prison for violating parole by leaving the city without permission, Domski said. In early April, he was paroled again.
Domski said that since then he appeared to be doing well, but there were danger signs.
"One of the last times I saw him, he had on a hardhat and a reflector vest." "
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, knowing full well of McCollum's prior MO's why didn't this person call the authorities in advance????
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1111/is_1824_304/ai_85882845/print
I realize that he did steal those trains after all. But given the muddled legislative issues surrounding his possible ailment and such, it seems to me that a more fitting punishment would be to place him in a role helping the MTA, possibly without pay. Such a punishment would be roughly similar to a kid working off payment for a broken window or something.
Wait, perhaps we should give him a bottle of windex, a rag and free access to the CI yard.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
In other words, there's no excuse for what he has done, but there is an explanation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Should the City offer car thieves jobs as bus operators or taxi drivers?
Now this, I can work with. With Darius as a security consultant guinea pig, some of our security worries might be solved. But then again, he might attempt to steal trains again knowing of the improvements and weakness of transit security. I feel that it may be better to keep him in a place where he will be scared silly to not steal or intrude MTA property again. And that place is:
SING SING!!!!
Regards,
Bird Man from Alcatraz. 8?)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
But a rubber room at Creedmoor and Bellevue aren't...
Jim Fish
Albuquerque, NM
Regards,
Jimmy
Your pal,
Fred
It will be interesting to see what improvements the MTA makes in their security plan given this incident. Oh wait, they're too busy looking for people with CAMERAS ....
--Mark
If there are any people from the media reading this and wanting to know more of my life story, please e-mail and I will be send you my press kit and schedule an appointment for an interview.
Avid Reader
He's not some bum you'd see on the street, he simply has disorder(s) that manipulate his perception of what is right and what is wrong and he is not aware of the punishments for lack of a better phrase. I'm sure a lot of people here could be on the verge of doing what Darius has done but have a clear line in their head on what is right and what is wrong. If they had a disorder similar to what Darius had, forget about it...
RIM SHOT!!!
I don't really think so. Darius' actions, whatever the reason, are WAY over the line, and note than no one else has come even remotely close to him in terms of unauthorized train operation.
I have to add that its not trains evoking sympathy from me. I don't think this man should ever be let near trains aside from toys. If anything its concern for our fiscal health. Its going to cost a lot of money to keep this man in prison for the rest of his life. Money that could among other things, buy and maintain trains. If we can reasonably avoid then we should at least consider it. Whether his case deserves treatment can only be decided after a trial after we determine his culpability. Many indicted people and their counsel dream up syndromes when they're accused it must be recalled. But maybe this one is for real. I can't say but we should be open-minded about it if only because of our own selfishness.
I also think we can learn from this man. How did he gain access? How can others like him, some with sinister maybe terrorist thoughts be stopped? Those are questions that have to be resolved too.
It's not the politically correct or popular answer, but assuming this guy REALLY has a neurological problem, this would be the truth. Now if he didn't have Aspergers and he is stealing trains willingly and knowingly because for some reason he thought he could get away with it, then obviously the normal sentencing would be appropriate.
From http://users.wpi.edu/~trek/aspergers.html
Asperger's Syndrome is a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) characterized by severe and sustained impairment in social interaction, development of restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, and activities. These characteristics result in clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
Adults with Asperger's have trouble with empathy and modulation of social interaction - the disorder follows a continuous course and is usually lifelong.
Aspergers is not easily recognizable. In contrast to Autistic disorder (Autism), there are no clinically significant delays in language or cognition or self help skills or in adaptive behavior, other than social interaction. Remedies used today range from St. John's Wort tea to drugs such as Haldol and Ritalin. Treatments vary to a great degree with the individual patient - no single medication or remedy works for everyone - and AS cannot be completely cured.
Has he ever sought treatment (presuming one exists)?
He probably has, but there really is nothing you can do about it. Lots of people with a milder/non-clinical form of Asperger's (we call those Autistic-spectrum disorders) have held jobs in various transit properties and non-transit properties. For example I know of an Asperger's person fascinated by bikes who works in a Trek factory doing QA (Quality Assurance). This type of jobs allows them to be really happy and they are usually great, conscientious workers. The cure is worse than the disease; it's easier just to utilize their "disease" to generate profits or public benefits.
He's a persistent felon. He's been arrested on 20 seperate occasions. The fact that it's trains should not evoke sympathy.
Prison is useless for this guy. He is going to do it again and again and again. So unless you got him a life sentence, it will not help him. And since he will never be able to get out of his obsession (it's neurological), unless you tie him up and keep him away from trains, he's always going to keep doing this. If he's too high risk for a real job assignment, you've got no choice but to bar him from MTA property and ensure that ban is supervised. If he were barred from MTA property, the next thing we know is he's out here on MBTA and has all the keys here too.
AEM7, M.S. (Psychology with Physics)
The idea of Civil Commitment would have chilled me back in the 70s. The idea that you pay your criminal debt to society and then are commited to a mental facility until you are deemed no longer a danger to society. In the event that you could not be cured, that meant forever. Now, in the case of Child Molesters and people like Darius where there is no treatment and the likelyhood of repeating the offense is high, Civil Commitment seems like the way to go.
Shall we give arsonists, positions within the NYC Fire Department?
Shall we give long term sexual predators, a job in a Adult strip club?
Shall we give serial killers, a job in the NYC Office of the Medical Examiner (the morgue), located at First Ave and East 32nd st and next door to Bellevue?
I think he has already proven that he DOES have what it takes.
Let us pretend I am Darius and they gave me a job as a car cleaner. Remember I have keys, and I am assigned to clean a train in a yard. I get bored and since I have keys why not? Evenutally, I may be able to get a brake handle, radio, and maybe the T/O uniform. Supervisor is not around and I steal a train by impersonating a T/O. I will lose my job with NYCT, but I know I will get out of jail, do my probation, and turn around and do it again.
Now being a T/O it will get worse, with all the equipment I have at my disposal, on my off day, I will start moving trains in and out of CI yard in no time. Darius has committed multiple offenses of Grand Larceny, impersonating a government official (acting as a transit employee), disordely conduct , etc..
end pretend situation.
If you want to give him a job do so in the mental hospital. Let him construct and run a model railroad for the enjoyment of children in the hospital and once a month or so allow a field trip on the subway or LIRR with his case worker or police officer and only public access or yard views from the street. Let him enjoy his love for trains while being closely monitored by mental health officials and the police. The man needs serious help, and allowing him a job with NYCT is not the answer. Like a baby being breast fed by mommy, Darius needs to "wean" himself off his psychological obsession of trains and him operating them until he is fit for him to be with the rest of society as a railfanner and train buff. A real train buff like among us Subtalkers, that is.
#3 West End Jeff
Isn't that in a way what the MOD trip crew does? On their off days, they take the MOD train out for play time basically and allow a specific crowd for 40 dollars to ride around on it with them. Yes, they are doing us a favor, but they (or most of them) enjoy what they are doing.
Yes, there have been several isolated incidents, 20 to be exact over 23 years. Part of the reason for the spacing between incidents is the fact that this fool has been in jail. To suggest that giving him a job with the TA would cure his miscreant tendancies is as rediculous as sending all rapists to medical school and training them to be OB/Gyn MDs to stop them from raping or making repeat bank robbers into tellers.
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/25746.htm
And as for the morons at the Moronic Transportation Authority, you guys want to derail photographers because they pose a security threat to your infrastructure, but allow a crazy person (he is NOT a foamer, don't get me wrong, he is a threat to public safety, and a threat to the fine MTA workers' lives too. Foamers do not perform stunts like that.), to wander into subway yards, trains not in service, bus depots, you name it.
They go after photographers, but can't protect themselves from intruders. Really makes you wonder about our leadership at 347 Madison Ave.
Actually you are wrong on 2 points.
First - he is a foamer. He's taking foaming to the extreme.
Second - the MTA has not let him onto the property. MTA pays for security and trains all employees to identify & report trespassers. It's the MTA employees who sat with him in the crew room at Main St. and the property protection agents who likely didn't challange him. It's the people who are always pointing in the wrong direction that are at fault. I hardly think that Peter Kalikow and Katherine Lapp and the other MTA board members are expected to perform perimeter patrol. Thankfully one LIRR employee did what he was supposed to do.
Today's NY Times has a thing on him:
http://nytimes.com/2004/06/15/nyregion/15subway.html
True railfans don't go out of their way to endanger passengers, crews, and equipment. McCollum does.
True railfans don't wander into depots and steal buses. McCollum does.
True railfans don't impersonate agency or contractor employees and don't carry unauthorized keys and equipment. McCollum does.
True railfans do appreciate trains and their associated infrastructure enough to ride/observe/photograph them safely and behave legally while doing so. Ditto for busfans. McCollum does not.
Darius McCollum is no railfan.
Then I am not a railfan.
AEM7
Criminal
or...
Mentally Unstable
MARTA POLICE MAKES ARREST IN TRAIN ATTACK
ATLANTA—This afternoon, the Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority (MARTA) Police Department made an arrest in connection with an attack on a high-ranking military official on the train at the MARTA Airport Station.
“At 11:17 a.m., a U.S. Army major boarded a southbound train at the MARTA Lakewood-Fort McPherson Station to pick up his family from Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport. While sitting on the train, an African American male dressed in a white robe and head dress, began staring at the major, pacing back and forth. He then headed towards the major yelling, screaming and swinging punches at him,” said MARTA Police Chief Gene Wilson. “An elderly lady, who did not give her age, tried to intervene by hitting the attacker with her purse, but the suspect retaliated by knocking her unconscious. As the train pulled into MARTA’s Airport Station, the suspect ran off the train and entered the northbound train across the platform, where he got into another altercation with another passenger. The MARTA rail operator and the passenger subdued the suspect until police arrived.”
MARTA Police arrested 42-year-old Saffo Davis of Atlanta and charged him with four counts of battery and four counts of obstruction for attacking the major, the elderly lady, the third victim and a police officer. He is being detained at Clayton County Jail. It took 15 MARTA police officers to transport Davis. According to a preliminary background check, Davis has numerous convictions on his police record.
“The suspect made no reference to the major’s race or military background prior to the attack. As far as we can tell, this is just one individual acting on his own,” said Wilson. “We do not believe this incident is tied to G8 protests or anything of that nature.”
The major was treated by Grady Hospital’s auxiliary clinic located inside the airport. The elderly lady was treated on the scene by the paramedics and released to her husband.
Prior to this incident, MARTA beefed up its police presence on the south line. Last week, MARTA redeployed 20 of its bus and special operations response teams to cover the G-8 Summit in Savannah. “As soon as they return, our officers will redeployed throughout the system,” said Wilson.
MARTA rail service was not interrupted during the incident.
For more information:
Kimberly Willis Green 404.848.5567
kgreen@itsmarta.com
It happened last Thursday. The only thing on TV was Reagan.
I know some people who are corrections officers at Rikers Island and they tell me plenty of the time how it takes 10-15 officers to subdue one inmate.
10 or 15 cops or C.O's trying to subdue one person will mainly get in each other's way. With proper training, it should take a team of only five to subdue and control even the strongest suspect - one for each limb, and one to grab him around the neck.
I personally love the stories of a guy spotting someone driving his stolen car and running them down.
Let's hope Jimmy Carter continues to enjoy good health ...
Low-V 5290 and 5292 are in the Paint Shop, getting cleaned up for the Centennial. The other two Low-V's 5443 and 5483 are still out in the yard, I suppose they're up next for repainting. Only two redbirds in the shop, 8956-8957, getting converted to work cars; they've been in there a while now. RD324 (R14 5812) which I had been told was going to the scrapper is sitting on the museum tracks along with another R12 or R14 rider car. I noted four Arnine's, 923-925 were still there and probably 103 & 381. (1300 went up to 207th St a while back, not sure about the other "missing" Arnine #1000.). The rest of the museum cars haven't changed much. Inside the overhaul shop, SMS floor replacement underway on the R46 and R68 fleets.
So far 8987 is the only one done. The renumbering so far will be:
RD-400 ex-8987
RD-401 ex-8986
RD-402 ex-8957
RD-403 ex-8956
More to come.....
Actually three cars would do it for 1904, but then again they didn't have center doors then ... now if only word would come down thet Shrub ISN'T going to "photo-op" it so PEOPLE can ride the train on the magic day instead of fattened calves.
wayne
Bill "Newkirk"
Peace,
ANDEE
Danke!
#4259
Bill "Newkirk"
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
The original Frankenslant didn't involve a SLANT R-40, but an R-27 that had an R-16 end grafted on the front. This happened on the early 60's and I believe seeing the pic here in the R-27 section. The shot was taken inside Coney Island shops with the R-27 still in dirty olive drab.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'll have to find some time to go looking for it if these damned script kiddies give me a minute's peace with their "leet warez." :)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Peace,
ANDEE
(obviously it was a test project in an attempt to extend the life of the R-10 fleet)
Judging by the pics, they look like they want this couple back on the road. The cars are side by side and the fiberglass bonnet on #4260 seems to be repainted. Sure looks shiny.
By the way, anyone "tinkering" with the BMT Standards ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I impersonate Ozzy: HOLY MOTHER OF CORN BEEF AND CABBAGE!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I understand the 137th street yard was used for layups, but what was used for the delivery of new rollingstock, and repairs? It appears that the original IRT (City Hall - 137th Street) had no aboveground yards.
-Julian
I believe it was 129th Street of the Manhattan Elevated. Later, the IRT opened a shop at 147th Street.
129th!? It appears that all evidence of this is now gone. Wonder what it looked like...
-Julian
That trackmap is really cool. (now, if only I could obtain one for WMATA ;))
-Julian
Just Don't Tell The Feds...
Thanks anyway.
-Julian
For any of the not-so-netsavy subtalkers out there, just go to http://web.archive.org/web/20010124045900/www.nycsubway.org/us/washdc/ and click on the link that the current Washington DC page on this site lacks.
Thanks for pointing me to an archiver!
-Julian
-Julian
London: Hammersmith to Acton Town ?
Baker Street to Harrow, Rayners Lane & Moor Park ?
Hi Subway: You can find express service with express tracks in Philadelphia, Chicago and even LOndon.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Actually, your statement makes more sense: It would have been much more expensive to rebuild the area just north of 96th than to pre-construct the Lenox branch's access.
-Julian
The spur to 145 Street was not part of the original design. It was a later addition once consruction had actually begun. However the 145 Street Station only missed opening day by a few months.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Joe Cunningham disagrees with you. According to his book, "Interborough Fleet," the cars were delivered to the 129th Street shops as unfinished coaches and the operating hardware was installed there.
"There is a storage yard under Broadway between 137th Street and 145th Street on the Fort George Branch, another on the surface at the end of the Lenox Avenue spur, Lenox Avenue and 148th Street, and a third on an elevated structure at the Boston Road and 178th Street."
The connections to Lenox and White Plains Road weren't strictly "Day One"; prior to the line's opening the cars were stored along the express tracks. There's photos in "the literature" of the cars lined up along 125th St. viaduct. The connection to Lenox opened for passenger service November 23rd, 1904 (although it's possible it was in use for yard service prior to that). The subway connection to the White Plains Road el wasn't opened for passenger service until July 10th, 1905 but the el line was in operation with connection to the 3rd Avenue el prior to that (which would have provided access to the Manhattan El yards mentioned elsewhere in this thread).
(The dates are from Ten Years of the Subway (1914) also available here on the site.)
Hi Subway: It was the 98 Street Yard of the 3 Avenue El was which the main overhaul and repair shops. It is interesting that the el structure (pre-dual contracts) was strong enough to support the weight of the subway cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Because the subway's Harlem River tube was not yet in service,
cars were floated (not clear if it was from 129 yard or from
the surface trackage on the other side of the river) to the
IRT subway division shop "Lenox yard".
Man With History Of Transit Arrests Caught In Queens Rail Yard
NEW YORK -- A man who has been arrested 20 times for illegally posing as a subway motorman, bus driver and transit token taker has been arrested again -- this time for walking through a Queens rail yard carrying several sets of transit keys and wearing a worker's vest and hard hat, police said.
Darius McCollum, 39, was on parole after serving prison time for his last arrest when transit police found him in the Long Island Rail Road's Hoban Yards on Friday. He was arraigned on charges of attempted grand larceny, criminal impersonation, possession of stolen property, trespassing and possession of burglar tools, according to the Queens District Attorney's office.
Tom Kelly, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, said it was unclear how McCollum got the uniform and several sets of keys, including ones that would give him access to trains.
"There is an investigation into how he came into the possession of some of the instruments that he had," Kelly told The New York Post for Monday editions.
In 2001, McCollum pleaded guilty to an incident the previous year in which, posing as an transit supervisor, he tripped a switch that caused a Queens-bound subway train to stop. He was sentenced to 21/2 to five years in prison and was released on parole in April.
Although he has not been officially diagnosed, some experts believe McCollum suffers from Asperger's Syndrome, a mental condition characterized by obsessive and anti-social behavior.
One of his former lawyers, Alvin Schlesinger, told the Post that McCollum would probably continue to impersonate transit workers unless his condition is treated.
McCollum has never worked as a paid transit employee. His mother, Elizabeth, once said that by the time her son was 8, he had memorized the entire New York City subway system and could direct a person to any point on it without consulting a map or guide.
These keys and wrenches seem too easy to duplication, if you ask me.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
My understanding of rolling stock control systems (which admittedly isn't that extensive) tells me that certain systems are shut-off with relay logic when you physically turn the reverser (what you transit guys call "keys") to the neutral position, and certain systems are locked on. For example, if the reverser is "neutral", you can pull the throttle all the way to Run 8 and you will just sit there while the engine generates all that power that never flows to the traction motors. A swipe system will not provide that hard relay logic.
This is not to say all new trains shouldn't be solid state, and that the relay logic should continued to be hard-wired to the reverser. However I can see a few technical problems that would need solved before a train will positively ID its operator before moving.
The real operational problem is when you are in the yards. Try swiping in and out each time you make a yard move. It will drive you nuts in a few hours.
AEM7
If the reverser is 'centered', you can't move the Controller at all.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=722995
That "true foamer" gives everyone else a bad rep.
Allan, the man has a medical condition. Probably a cross between Aspergers (mentioned) and obsessive-compusive. This guy ain't a normal railfan.
AEM7
And "normal railfan" is an oxymoron.
Does that mean I am not a railfan? I've been having doubts about my railfanism recently. Yesterday we were riding on the Blue Line back from Wood Island, and I failed to even go up to the railfan window while Jersey Mike and Mr. John fought over it, instead I sat down in the middle of the car. What's happening to me??? Am I going to lose membership of this exclusive club?
Not at all!
At least legitimate foamers will attempt to go through the proper channels in order to get to drive a train . . .
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
I was 13 before I could claim that skill.
Oren, Dylan & Perry---Don't bother with this, I know what your status's are and that you ARE attending...
Thanks,
Mark
Have fun though!
Mark
However, I'm not letting this summer go past without getting down there, I guarantee that!
Yes Mark, I will be seeing you Saturday. Don't worry.
I don't mind about doing the western part of the Red Line by myself earlier or later in the day. On the last time I met up with Oren, I went out to New Carrollton with no problem beforehand. When I say "start somewhere on Red", I'm thinking somewhere in the neighborhood of Farragut North or Metro Center or thereabouts.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
I was thinking bus of some sort across. Riding the Red Line all the way around does not sound fun to me at all.
NEW CARROLLTON (AP) -- A person who apparently fell off the platform is under an Amtrak train at the New Carrollton station.
Prince George's County Fire spokesman Chauncey Bowers says despite being under the train, the person apparently is not hurt.
Amtrak spokesman Dan Stessel says the train involved is number 95 from Boston to Newport News, Virginia. It arrived in New Carrollton just after two this afternoon, and was due to stop next at Union Station in Washington.
I was sitting in coachclass which was the 3rd car behind Business and the Cafe. We arrive at New Carrollton running about 10minutes late (apparently there was a train or somthing stuck in a tunnel out of NY?? I dont know that part, I got on after). Anyways at NCarrollton, the power suddenly goes off, and I figure "oh great, the engine died or somthing" So I step out outside on the platform to talk to the conductor I see him then I look over his shoulder and there's this lady (senior citizen) down on the tracks between the 4 and 5 cars, theres a gap when you stop off at New Carrollton, First I thought "Oh man someone got killed" but then I saw she was talking calmly and the EMS and Fire Department arrives and pulled her out. But that was a sight.
The conductors were announcing "this train is delayed indefinatly" "please use Metro orange line, or the up coming Marc train", A Marc train pulls up and there was a max exodus far too many people for the marc train, but at the same time, the lady had been cleared and the train proceded onto Union Station.
Better Odds, But Still a Losing Bet
By JAMES GARDNER
Any time now,people will begin to celebrate the centennial of the New York subway system’s inaugural run, which took place on October 27, 1904, when the IRT line between City Hall and 145th Street opened. I will not be among them.
Despite an acute appreciation of the importance of this massive infrastructural achievement, I have ridden too many other subways around the world — 20 at the very least — not to be keenly aware that ours is the least reliable, the slowest, and the most malodorous.
I say this in the full awareness that the subway is far cleaner and more efficient today than in the 1960s and 1970s, when it reached the perigee of its fortunes, and that the changes initiated last Sunday will greatly streamline service in and out of Manhattan through the creation of four new tracks across the Manhattan Bridge. But although our stations and trains have a somewhat more burnished air to them, and although occasionally you can even make out the voice over the PR system, the main consequence of this turnaround is that riders are waiting for the subway in slightly less dingy circumstances. And more of them are waiting.
For better or worse, the subway is integral to the lives of many, if not most, of our citizens. It takes us to work and then it takes us home. It takes us to the sites of our leisure. But in the century that it has served this function, it has had a subtle and unhealthy effect upon us. It is like a chronic pain that we assimilated so long ago that our resulting unhappiness has come to seem like the natural order of things.
We have lost all awareness that, when we descend into the subway, we are actually taking part in a wager. We assume that the train will come, that it will take us to our destination, that we will not have to get out midway and walk or take a taxi because of any of a hundred perturbations along the line. None of this is certain.
All too often I have wagered that the subway will take me 20 blocks downtown faster than the quarter-hour I would need to walk. So I have anted up two dollars as warrant of this belief, only to find myself reduced to hoping that, at the very least, the journey will not be a waste of my time. This sentiment yields, in turn, to that sinking feeling, so familiar to New Yorkers, that I have in fact paid money to waste time, that I have lost the wager.
A similar — if more complicated — bet is involved in deciding whether to take the local or the express (in my case on the Lexington Avenue line) from, say, 86th Street to 14th Street. Do I let the local go by, implicitly wagering that an express cannot be far off? Am I feeling lucky? Here too, I often make the transition from hope to resignation to ultimate disappointment.
Multiply that anxiety and the resulting anger by several million, extend it over generations, and then try to imagine the damage it has caused to the collective psyche of the citizenry at large. Who among us does not know that haunted boredom of staring into the blackness of an interminable tunnel, or the abrupt, idiotic uplift of finally seeing light in the distance, where there was none a second before?
The Australian Aborigines are said to have developed an acute sensitivity to the minutest shifts in their natural environment, a sensitivity bred into them over thousands of years. So have we acquired by now a preternatural acuity to the minutest gradations of light along the flanges of the tracks, that almost notional fizz or gleam as the longed-for train begins to materialize half a mile away.
Rarely, it seems, does anyone speak about, let along seek to quantify, the effect of such eternal exasperation on the lives of the citizens. Yet this disquiet is the first thing many of our citizens experience most of the mornings of their lives, and it is the last thing they experience in the evening.
But surely, it will be said, subways are like that everywhere. No, they are not. All others are better and ours is the worst. Notice that I have not mentioned the dehumanizing effects of people being stuffed into the cars at rush hour: That is universal to all subways. The main reason that riding the Paris Metro or the London Underground is so much more pleasant than riding our system comes down to the greater abundance and regularity of their trains.
This abundant regularity is the summum bonum of all subways, and everything else is in varying degrees unimportant. Parisians and Londoners experience their subways differently from the way we do ours. They walk to the platform and then they wait for the train — which is usually just coming into the station — to stop. London’s system has the added amenity of listing, with uncanny accuracy, when the next three trains are coming, usually within one, two, and four minutes. We, however, walk to the platform in a state of total unknowing qualified only by a strangely indomitable hope.
Surely the superiority of the subways in London and Paris, as well as in Berlin, Moscow, and Buenos Aires, is due mainly to the fact that those cities are the capitals of highly centralized nations, whereas our system is funded by a perennially impecunious local government. However that may be, the result is that we have been living for 100 years now with a subway that is quite simply unworthy of a great metropolis.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well, I'm not saying he's wrong, but this whole article is total crap. You ALWAYS think the system you have to put up with day in and day out is the worst. Look at how many native San Franciscans complain about SF MUNI. Every time I've been out there, it's been completely fine, buses come, get me where I want to go, had an easy day-pass system before NY did etc. But they complain left and right. I'm sure if I lived there, I'd see their points. Same thing here. That guy should go to London and have expensive theatre tickets on a night when the Underground goes on a one day strike-- and see how much he loves it then.
Despite the MTA's dogged insistence on standard black and white directional signs, the NYC subway was constructed by three different companies and so features artwork and signage of several different decades. You want mosaics depicting long-gone landmarks? The IRT's got 'em. You want terra cotta? Early Heins & LaFarge IRT stations have it. You want brilliantly colored tilework? The Canarsie line's got it. You want Machine Age letterforms and color-coded stations? The IND has it. You want station ID plates in serifed mosaic letterwork? All over the BMT and IRT...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The London press is always slagging off the Underground, but our own Peter Rosa was very complimentary about it when he visited last year. On the other hand, it does have lots of weekend GOs and the reason for that is deferred maintenance; as on Britain's main line railways, a lot of making up for lost time is going on.
The Subway *is* old (it's the Centennial, after all) and looks it. But that is part of its charm. I wish more of the London stations had retained their original decorative features in the same way as NYC ones have - it's only the lesser-used ones that have anything like their original appearance.
I remain most impressed by the Underground. Its short headways are so much better than New York's often-lengthy waits, plus of course the electronic "next train" signs have no counterpart in the Big Apple (where they're REALLY needed).
Public Address/Customer Information System
(I think)
And for the record, the information will appear on the Date/Time boxes that hang at all stations. Believe it or not, I've already seen such indicators already on the Flushing Line, but they were most likely tests.
- The NYC subway system has so many mysteries to discover.
- The NYC subway system has the Rockaways, none of the 20 "other" systems, he rode on, has that view
- The NYC subway system is the largest urban rail system in the world
- The NYC subway system is so varied; tunnels or different methods used in building, open cut, elevated, embankments
- The NYC subway system is the true "melting pot", over 200 languages are spoken at once all over the system
- The NYC subway system is the ultimate system to conquer. Just look at "New York Underground" for example
- The NYC subway system is unpredictable. How many times have you seen G trains running to the beaches and playgrounds at Coney Island?
- The NYC subway system is the best way to travel (most of the time.).
- The NYC subway system is a system you can use, without spending upwards of $40 a day for parking, or worse yet a $110 parking ticket.
- The NYC subway system is a wealth of history, existing ROW's are well over 120 years old.
- The NYC subway system has station mosaics dating back to 1904 and are preserved for future generations to come.
Now Mr. Gardner, as in the Steven Segal film "Hard to Kill" (1990)..."YOU CAN TAKE THAT TO THE BANK"
Thats exactly one of his points
When?
The TEA-21 and "Transportation Bill" is the REAL culprit. Remember in November ...
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Still though, the outer boroughs get some improvement, like Altantic Avenue/Pacific Street, Roosevelt Avenue-Jackson Heights/74th Street-Broadway and Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue.
As Pigs says, it's ALL about where the tourists are, where the money is, and where the WHINERS commute back and forth from. "Squeaky wheel, squeaky politician" is what matters. And WHERE it matters is where it's going to be seen by outsiders! Let's get real here - the subway is one of those all too many annoyances of living in the city. You TAKE the subway and DEAL with it, or you walk. OR you take the bus, OR you take the LIRR, OR you take a taxi, OR (if you can afford this, why the PHUCK are you living in the city, heh) a LIMO and scroo the subway.
Reality is the subways carry (as Immigrants once said back in the 50's) "ALL KINDSA PIPPLES" ... from the very wealthy who don't FEAR a subway ride (ever wonder WHY I admired Bloomy when the REST of you all hated him? He RIDES the TRAIN, he ALWAYS DID! Even BEFORE he got elected - I was involved in the original construction of "Bloomberg Television" peripherally) ... you either DEAL with it, or you DON'T. The "makeup" is for los touristas. Money *IS* set aside for "outer borough" but it's a FAR smaller amount.
Fred, old buddy - I *agree* with you about the deplorable conditions. The BOTTOM LINE though for NYC's survival is make what is viewable to AUSLANDERS the MOST appealing where possible. If you take in the WHOLE of the system, what stations get WHAT and what LINES get which "SHINY NEW" vs. "Old broke chit" what I've just said (as did Pigs) only makes SENSE.
With the republican congress having just cut OFF funding for New York City, the Sea Beach is REALLY going to go straight to hell now BECAUSE it serves RECENT IMMIGRANTS as the majority of riders, AND "touristas" don't use it. Unless CONGRESS coughs up some cash, better to rehab Times Square again with fresh paint, new ART and other "New York City is the cultural center of the world ... *SEE?*)
It's ALL a sidewalk act. :(
There IS quite obviously a budget for station rehabs, and in fact right now the Jamaica El is getting some as are other stations around the system. Someone more knowlegeable than I can indicate how many are currently in progress, but at any given time it seems to be a handful. And rather than just sending out a paint crew to slap some paint on and move along, these rehabs appear to be end to end full treatments done the hard way. And from the looks of things, the Jamaica el waited far longer than the Sea Beach for theirs. Quite possible that in one of the upcoming years, your line will finally come around for it.
But these things really ARE about money and rehabs tend to get sidelined when money's tight which I assume it is right now. The costs of 9/11 have ended up being borne by US rather than "America" (I won't go political on it, but everything's going to hell in this state the past three years) and about the only hope I'd have for the money to do more rehabs would HAVE to come from outside New York's tax base - the money just ain't there, state's over $6 billion in debt and word is the legislature's going to go home this coming Friday with NO budget at ALL ... doesn't bode well. :(
You are comparing it to a system that doesn't cover even a fraction of the area that the NYC subway covers (saying Philadelphia is more pleasant and better), and then saying that NY doesn't cover enough! Isn't that an oxymoron?
Okay, it's silly. But I'll take it.
Surely the superiority of the subways in London and Paris, as well as in Berlin, Moscow, and Buenos Aires, is due mainly to the fact that those cities are the capitals of highly centralized nations, whereas our system is funded by a perennially impecunious local government. However that may be, the result is that we have been living for 100 years now with a subway that is quite simply unworthy of a great metropolis.
Then he must really be ignorant to think that a 100+ year old system would be bad for the city. We're one of a few systems that has the 4 track set up as well as other things not seen anywhere else.
Hopefully it will be truly useful. In addition to giving estimated times of arrival, will it also give estimates of where the next express will pass the next local, and will the signs be visible from trians on the local track? Will information about transfers be given, so passengers can decide where to transfer? (e.g., do I get off here at 59th for the B, or do I stay on to Times Square for the Q, or do I transfer to the express and take that to Atlantic for either one?)
No.
a) be late. KISS means that you get the basic information out first (what’s next and how long, maybe what’s after that and how long). The rest of the information can be Phase 2, so that if the budget is cut, it doesn’t work etc, etc, we still have something. Human beings’ track record for software projects that deliver everything in one big bang is terrible.
b) be confusing.
However, I would like a display that can rotate train information with “B not running. Take F…” messages. That would help stuck geese on GO days.
Agh, that's not a big problem. Merely a matter of design. How about every station has a strip map with progress lights for, say, five stations up the line and five stations down. Simple blinking position lights. With all the advancements in display technology, such a display should be not be difficult to design. Put it over the, uh, token booth. (please, no ragging on that word. I know there're no more tokens.) People would get used to this quickly, I think. Just a standard map...with lights.
Makes you wonder why anyone would take it seriously.
I will never forget this incident I had there in the Fall of 1999:
I lived/worked in London for 4 monts then, My commute was 'the drain' (Waterloo & City Line) from Bank to Waterloo, where I would transfer to a South West Train to Richmond. Richmond was an express stop on the main line and service was meant to be very frequent especally during rush hours. One day I get to Waterloo the Big Destination Board says "Cancled" for the next 5 trains to Richmond meaning that the next train will be in 1/2 an hour. I get on that train, its crowded to the brim. Over the PA we are told "We are trying to find the driver". We wait on the crowded train for 10 more minutes until the driver comes and we fineally leave.
Hardly a tragedy by New York standards. Let's see ... there were five trains to Richmond in a half-hour period (only LIRR to Jamaica and MN to 125th would have that frequency); the train was jammed (ever ride a Ronkonkoma line train on the LIRR?); and the delay lasted 10 minutes (an eyeblink by NYC standards).
Well, I'm not saying he's wrong, but this whole article is total crap. You ALWAYS think the system you have to put up with day in and day out is the worst. Look at how many native San Franciscans complain about SF MUNI. Every time I've been out there, it's been completely fine, buses come, get me where I want to go, had an easy day-pass system before NY did etc. But they complain left and right. I'm sure if I lived there, I'd see their points. Same thing here. That guy should go to London and have expensive theatre tickets on a night when the Underground goes on a one day strike-- and see how much he loves it then.
Despite the MTA's dogged insistence on standard black and white directional signs, the NYC subway was constructed by three different companies and so features artwork and signage of several different decades. You want mosaics depicting long-gone landmarks? The IRT's got 'em. You want terra cotta? Early Heins & LaFarge IRT stations have it. You want brilliantly colored tilework? The Canarsie line's got it. You want Machine Age letterforms and color-coded stations? The IND has it. You want station ID plates in serifed mosaic letterwork? All over the BMT and IRT...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The London press is always slagging off the Underground, but our own Peter Rosa was very complimentary about it when he visited last year. On the other hand, it does have lots of weekend GOs and the reason for that is deferred maintenance; as on Britain's main line railways, a lot of making up for lost time is going on.
The Subway *is* old (it's the Centennial, after all) and looks it. But that is part of its charm. I wish more of the London stations had retained their original decorative features in the same way as NYC ones have - it's only the lesser-used ones that have anything like their original appearance.
I remain most impressed by the Underground. Its short headways are so much better than New York's often-lengthy waits, plus of course the electronic "next train" signs have no counterpart in the Big Apple (where they're REALLY needed).
Public Address/Customer Information System
(I think)
And for the record, the information will appear on the Date/Time boxes that hang at all stations. Believe it or not, I've already seen such indicators already on the Flushing Line, but they were most likely tests.
- The NYC subway system has so many mysteries to discover.
- The NYC subway system has the Rockaways, none of the 20 "other" systems, he rode on, has that view
- The NYC subway system is the largest urban rail system in the world
- The NYC subway system is so varied; tunnels or different methods used in building, open cut, elevated, embankments
- The NYC subway system is the true "melting pot", over 200 languages are spoken at once all over the system
- The NYC subway system is the ultimate system to conquer. Just look at "New York Underground" for example
- The NYC subway system is unpredictable. How many times have you seen G trains running to the beaches and playgrounds at Coney Island?
- The NYC subway system is the best way to travel (most of the time.).
- The NYC subway system is a system you can use, without spending upwards of $40 a day for parking, or worse yet a $110 parking ticket.
- The NYC subway system is a wealth of history, existing ROW's are well over 120 years old.
- The NYC subway system has station mosaics dating back to 1904 and are preserved for future generations to come.
Now Mr. Gardner, as in the Steven Segal film "Hard to Kill" (1990)..."YOU CAN TAKE THAT TO THE BANK"
Thats exactly one of his points
When?
The TEA-21 and "Transportation Bill" is the REAL culprit. Remember in November ...
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Still though, the outer boroughs get some improvement, like Altantic Avenue/Pacific Street, Roosevelt Avenue-Jackson Heights/74th Street-Broadway and Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue.
As Pigs says, it's ALL about where the tourists are, where the money is, and where the WHINERS commute back and forth from. "Squeaky wheel, squeaky politician" is what matters. And WHERE it matters is where it's going to be seen by outsiders! Let's get real here - the subway is one of those all too many annoyances of living in the city. You TAKE the subway and DEAL with it, or you walk. OR you take the bus, OR you take the LIRR, OR you take a taxi, OR (if you can afford this, why the PHUCK are you living in the city, heh) a LIMO and scroo the subway.
Reality is the subways carry (as Immigrants once said back in the 50's) "ALL KINDSA PIPPLES" ... from the very wealthy who don't FEAR a subway ride (ever wonder WHY I admired Bloomy when the REST of you all hated him? He RIDES the TRAIN, he ALWAYS DID! Even BEFORE he got elected - I was involved in the original construction of "Bloomberg Television" peripherally) ... you either DEAL with it, or you DON'T. The "makeup" is for los touristas. Money *IS* set aside for "outer borough" but it's a FAR smaller amount.
Fred, old buddy - I *agree* with you about the deplorable conditions. The BOTTOM LINE though for NYC's survival is make what is viewable to AUSLANDERS the MOST appealing where possible. If you take in the WHOLE of the system, what stations get WHAT and what LINES get which "SHINY NEW" vs. "Old broke chit" what I've just said (as did Pigs) only makes SENSE.
With the republican congress having just cut OFF funding for New York City, the Sea Beach is REALLY going to go straight to hell now BECAUSE it serves RECENT IMMIGRANTS as the majority of riders, AND "touristas" don't use it. Unless CONGRESS coughs up some cash, better to rehab Times Square again with fresh paint, new ART and other "New York City is the cultural center of the world ... *SEE?*)
It's ALL a sidewalk act. :(
There IS quite obviously a budget for station rehabs, and in fact right now the Jamaica El is getting some as are other stations around the system. Someone more knowlegeable than I can indicate how many are currently in progress, but at any given time it seems to be a handful. And rather than just sending out a paint crew to slap some paint on and move along, these rehabs appear to be end to end full treatments done the hard way. And from the looks of things, the Jamaica el waited far longer than the Sea Beach for theirs. Quite possible that in one of the upcoming years, your line will finally come around for it.
But these things really ARE about money and rehabs tend to get sidelined when money's tight which I assume it is right now. The costs of 9/11 have ended up being borne by US rather than "America" (I won't go political on it, but everything's going to hell in this state the past three years) and about the only hope I'd have for the money to do more rehabs would HAVE to come from outside New York's tax base - the money just ain't there, state's over $6 billion in debt and word is the legislature's going to go home this coming Friday with NO budget at ALL ... doesn't bode well. :(
You are comparing it to a system that doesn't cover even a fraction of the area that the NYC subway covers (saying Philadelphia is more pleasant and better), and then saying that NY doesn't cover enough! Isn't that an oxymoron?
Location: Galloway Street, off 1st Place NE (as it's been said, "literally in the middle of Fort Totten Park"), Washington DC
Opening: 2/6/78, 12/11/93
Routes: Red, Green
Platforms: Island
Ceiling: Gull-wing roof on both, lower level mirrors the design underground with two mini-arch ceilings, of a variant of the standard vaulted arch. Not a waffle design, though.
Alignment: Embankment/Cut/underground (read below for explanation)
Additional Features: None within the station itself. A single-track spur connects the Red line south of this station to the Green Line east of it, the second of such interface points between the Red Line and the other four (the other is C&A Connector between Dupont Circle and Farragut North, which leads to McPherson Sq on Blue/Orange). A crossover in the Green tunnel (yes, it's underground immediately east of the station, as well as the station's west half being underground) allows trains to be taken from southbound Green to the spur, and into the westbound (Grosvenor/Shady Grove bound) Red. The spur could also be used as a layup for trains terminating at Brookland-CUA if need be, as the track splits to access BOTH Red tracks.
VERY long time between opening of the upper and lower levels. The Red Line saw service here on a rather cold winter's morning when the service to Silver Spring began. That platform sits on the embankment, with its mezzanine being dual-use now. The much later opening of the Green Line station finally put this stop to use as a transfer point. However, Green only went east, as the connecting segment between here and U Street-Cardozo wasn't open yet (and wouldn't be for nearly six years). Thus, this station pulled dual use as transfer and terminal. The Green Line platform is under the mezzanine, while Red sits above it. The platform below is in an open cut, but only for the eastern half. The west half is buried underground, and the ceiling matches the gullwing roof, looking almost like two tubes, something normlly seen BETWEEN staions, rather than IN them. This is one of only two such stations, the other being Huntington at the end of the Yellow Line (which, interestingly enough, is on such a high embankment, that it appears to be an elevated station, an appearance supported by the elevated guideway into the stop...), which has the last third buried in the hillside there. The tracks originally stub ended at the west end, until Septermber 18th, 1999, when the Mid-City segment FINALLY opened (after much rerouting and resident appeasing, though it did lead to the "double-decker" tunnel). The spur is just about never used, the main time of its use being between 1996 and 1999, when WMATA concepted the Green Line Commuter Shortcut. Tains from Greenbelt would run through the crossover east of the station, and into the Red tracks, heading for Farragut North (Why not Dupont Circle?). This maneuver allowed Green Trains to bypass Fort Totten, and eliminated the need to transfer to get downtown, but was only used in rush hours (and in 1998/1999 on July 4th). I don't actually know if there were any rush hour Green trains from Greenbelt that didn't use the shortcut. There are NOW, but that's because they can get through to downtown on their own trackage. The shortcut's been dead since the Green Line was de-fragmented. Mind you, the Red has never terminated here. Lest I forget, the station sits between the outbound and inbound CSXT/MARC Brunswick Line/Amtrak tracks here; these same tracks are paralleled on the Shady Grove side (including shared station space at Rockville) by the Red line. North of here (once, I believe was north of Takoma), CSX trains have twice tipped over, tearing up Metro's Red Line trackage, but that hasn't been a problem for decades. You can park here if you need to.
***1/2 for Fort Totten. You can all pretty much guess which transfer is next; that one shall also be the inaugural edition of the Spotlight on Terminal Stations (and no, I'm not doing Stadium-Armory all over again, but yes, I will cover FORMER terminal stations).
Green Line shortcut did not run to my knowledge on 7/4/1998.
When the shortcut ran, all trains used it except at the end of both rush hours, there would be Green Line trains from both Fort Totten and Farragut North for a short period because trains would start turning back at Fort Totten while trains were still returning from downtown.
Are we seeing you on Saturday?
How I know it ran? We took a trip up to Wheaton, and when we came back, we got off at Metro Center. Before we slipped down to the Blue/Orange platform (we were gonna head for New Carrollton but turned back at Stadium-Armory to avoid missing the fireworks... good thing, because the Orange train ended up going to Addison Road anyway), a Green Line shortcut train went past... confused me at first, until I remembered it even existed.
BTW, 1998 was the year I remember people in DC actually BOOING the Blue Line westbound while witing for the Orange... we had three Blue trains pass us at Rosslyn (or were we at L'Enfant Plaza???) before an Orange Line train showed up... at the time, we were visiting friends in Reston, and had parked in Vienna (normally, when we hit DC, we park at Greenbelt or Addison Road - but if I' alone, I'm on Amtrak, as I don't drive.)
Basically, upon leaving Reston and getting to Vienna, our trip went as such: Orange to Metro Center, Red to Wheaton, Red back to Metro Center, Orange to Stadium-Armory, Blue to Smithsonian, fireworks, Orange to Vienna, back to I-95 and back to Philly. I saw at least one Green Line Shortcut train, perhaps they just pulled a few for the crowds... it was a six-car consist, all Breda (I THINK) I KNOW I saw a train displaying GREEN in front (I don't know how to color the text on this board just yet) and FARRAGUT N in the sides. Blue/Orange were having some sort of problems; not only did our Orange Line get delayed eastbound to the point that they just sent it to Addison Road to appease the other Blue riders, bur going home, about four Blue Line trains passed us before the Orange Line finally showed up... and all the Blue trains got booed (and SOME people were throwing tomatoes)... don't even ask who got the crowd started booing...
Mark
I also WILL get a better keyboard (or browser, Netcsape 6 didn't miss letters that I actually typed, despite my keyboard's very high sensitivity setting compared to Netscape 7)... I had to fix six typos in this post
They don't run buses up to Silver Spring & Glenmont when they do major work at New York Ave.
Let me know what you'd like...or would you like for me to stop by 5th Street after the teams get started Saturday morning.
Mark
There are a couple other thing that are not known to a lot of people about the evolution of the design of lower level part of Fort Totton (E05).
There were at least two other designs that were proposed. Two involved placing the center of the platform under the center line of the upper level platform. Both of these designs would have put the west end of the lower level platform where the under ground part of the station begins today. These designs would have eliminated the half in subway half in open cut design.
East of the station one of the designs called for an elevated that would have extended east over South Dakota Avenue NE in the park that the present tunnels run under to a portal around 11th Street NE. The double crossover would have been on the elevated on the east side of South Dakota Avenue NE. West of South Dakota Avenue NE an almost exact copy of the of the existing connector track on the B Route Red line would descend west between the E route main line tracks to connect to the B Route Red line. The other design placed the connector track and double crossover in subway with the same platform configuration.
Local neighborhood opposition to the elevated put the line under ground.
Both of the designs of the lower level called for a platform canopy similar to the canopies used on the other island platform stations on the surface along the Green Line
Those that plan to attend this Saturday will get to see some of the architectural rendering that were done by neighbor friend of mine when I lived in DC. One of the renderings is the elevated east of Fort Totton others are renderings of proposed designs that were never built.
Other facts;
Fort Totton (B05) upper level is 27,876’ (8496.6m) from center of upper level platform in Metro Center (A01)
Fort Totton (E05) lower level is 26,107’ (7957.41m) from center of lower level platform in Gallery Place (F01)
The Center of the lower level platform is placed such that half of the station is in subway and half is in open cut.
The tunnels east of the station from the platform to a point east of the double crossover are twin box cut and cover the remainder of the tunnels to the portal west of West Hyettsville (E06) are shield bored tunnels with a cast in place concrete lining with an inside diameter of 16’ 8" (5.08m) Near the transition between the cut and cover and shield bored tunnels is a fan shaft with emergency exit stairs. The tunnels west of the station were machine bored tunnels through clay that were shotcrete lined before the cast in place concrete lining with an inside diameter of 16’ 8" (5.08m) was installed. The blow out shaft at the west end of the station has emergency exit stairs in it. There as I recall is a shaft, fan shaft west of North Capitol Street and another shaft, fan shaft on the north side of Grant Circle on New Hampshire Avenue.
John
Mark
To be precise the only concrete that was pored under the mezzanine were the support columns and the machine room at the bottom of the elevator shaft. No short section of platform no track bed.
John
If the TA wants to remove it, it can. Just thought you all would like to know that.
Either cheap paint, or shoe polish. I've removed some too; With a wet napkin it came off after a few vigorous strokes.
-Julian
It's sort of sad, in a way, that it doesn't. It simply requires a wet napkin and a few vigorous strokes. Heck, even T/Os or C/Rs can do it in layups, or something.
On the NT trains, the vandal-shield can be peeled off, although that's overkill.
-Julian
Maybe public minded passengers could do it if it worries them !
:-)
Maybe NY should elect their own 'Red Ken' ! (Another Smiley Face ! )
No, they can't. No matter how simple it is to clean, having a T/O or C/R clean it is still out-of-title work. Period.
Good man!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Julian
Okay, it's silly. But I'll take it.
LOS ANGELES -- Residents of Los Angeles' oldest suburb say they
know how to steer their forgotten neighborhood back on track,
according to this report by Bob Pool published by the Los Angeles
Times.
They want to resurrect a trolley line that for 60 years carried
passengers between Angelino Heights and downtown.
Service on the Angelino-Crown Hill Line lurched to a halt in 1946 after
Los Angeles Railway Corp. was sold to a consortium of automobile,
truck and tire companies and oil firms that replaced its trademark
Yellow Car electric-powered trolleys with buses.
But Angelino Heights residents have acquired an 84-year-old Yellow
Car that once clang-clang-clanged past their neighborhood's elegant
Victorian homes. And they've launched a campaign to refurbish the old
coach and get it running once more.
The goal of nonprofit Angeleno Heights Trolley Line Inc., is to
construct a 5 1/2-mile rail loop that will once again provide passenger
service between Angelino Heights, Echo Park and downtown.
In Angelino Heights itself, restarting the trolley could be as easy as
scraping the asphalt off the old narrow-gauge tracks hidden beneath
hilly neighborhood streets and stringing a 600-volt electric line
overhead, advocates say.
New tracks would be required along busier streets that have been
repeatedly dug up and repaved since the original trolley service was
discontinued.
The trolley would connect their historic neighborhood with such tourist
sites as Olvera Street, light-rail and subway commuter service at
Union Station, the Civic Center and Chinatown.
It would also cross Grand Avenue, which some urban planners are
touting as the future Los Angeles version of Paris' Champs-Elysees.
Now lined by such showpiece structures as the Cathedral of Our Lady
of the Angels, the Music Center -- including Walt Disney Concert Hall
-- and office towers, the street has been targeted for $1.2 billion in
new development.
That means that antique cars, riding on tracks and powered by
low-voltage electricity drawn from an overhead wire, could someday
connect L.A.'s newest with its oldest: Laid out in 1886, Angelino
Heights is considered the city's oldest suburb.
"It would be something people would ride," predicts Bruce Lash,
president of Angeleno Heights Trolley Line. "It would connect a lot of
the attractions that draw people to downtown Los Angeles."
Trolley backers say restoration of the line could help introduce new
generations of gingerbread-architecture lovers to their colorful,
Midwestern-looking neighborhood.
Tucked between the Hollywood Freeway and Sunset Boulevard, it is
close to downtown, forcing its residents to fight to protect the quaint,
small-town look from overdevelopment.
Trolley supporters estimate that it would cost $15 million to build the
line. But they say grants from various urban renewal, historic
preservation and transportation funding sources could easily cover
that cost if governmental agencies got behind the project.
So far, $6,000 in seed money "raised by Angelino Heights garage
sales" is being used to launch the campaign, said David Goldsboro,
the nonprofit group's vice president for fundraising.
It was the donation of old Yellow Car No. 1030 to Angelino Heights
neighborhood leaders in late 2002 that sparked the trolley line plan,
however.
The austere, slat-seated Birney Safety Car was built in St. Louis in
1920 and rumbled along neighborhood streets until June 30, 1946.
That the 28-foot-long, wood-sided coach survived at all is amazing. It
was sold for scrap after its last run. But collector Ray Younghans and
a friend pooled together $100 and bought it from a Vernon salvage
yard before its cab could be crushed and its three-ton metal
undercarriage melted down.
Younghans' friend kept it in Pasadena for 10 years before moving it to
Younghans' Cypress Park home.
Younghans hoped that the old car would eventually be placed in a
proposed trolley museum at El Pueblo de Los Angeles Historic
Monument.
That never materialized, however. And No. 1030, along with
Younghans' extensive collection of memorabilia -- Pacific Electric Co.
blueprints, Los Angeles Railway destination signs, Red Car timetables
and Yellow Car tokens -- ended up in the possession of the Electric
Railway Historical Assn. of Southern California after his death three
years ago.
It was the railway historical group that persuaded Angelino Heights
residents to take on No. 1030. The trolley was donated with the
stipulation that it be refurbished and put into working order once
more, said John Heller, association vice president.
Rebuilding the car will cost an estimated $600,000. At least two other
Birney-style cars would be needed for the line to operate, and Lash
said his group was already negotiating to have a second car donated.
Eduardo Santiago, secretary of the Angelino Heights group, said
preliminary talks had been held with the Metropolitan Transportation
Authority about resurrecting the line. At the suggestion of U.S. Sen.
Dianne Feinstein's office, his group is initiating a formal feasibility
study into renewed trolley service, Santiago said.
"They are to be applauded for their determination and effort. But they
have a long way to go before getting off the ground," said Guillermo
Gonzalez, deputy state director for Feinstein.
Robin Blair, transportation planning manager for the MTA, said his
agency offers its moral support. He said it would be up to Los Angeles
officials to decide whether trolleys once again shared city streets with
automobiles, however.
"If a community, in a political sense, can reclaim those tracks, they
can reclaim the right of way," Blair said.
But though supporters contend that vintage coaches would mix easily
with traffic along Sunset Boulevard, West Cesar Chavez Avenue and
Echo Park Avenue, Blair noted that "the real critical issue became
whether they can convince the city that what they want to do is worth
relocating traffic" or that the slow-moving trolleys can be operated at
"off-peak times."
Pointing to a new Red Car trolley operation begun on former railroad
tracks near the harbor in San Pedro, Blair said things like local trolleys
are "the stuff we like to see communities do -- they do a nice job of
bringing a signature image to a community."
City Councilman Ed Reyes, who represents the Angelino Heights area,
agrees. He has written a letter expressing "strong encouragement" of
the trolley plan, saying reconstruction of the line could be "a fitting
addition to the city's first Historic Preservation Overlay Zone," which
was created in the 118-year-old neighborhood.
"The possible reestablishment of this vintage trolley line is worth
examining, if for no other reason but to remind our city's residents of
our wonderful transportation and cultural history," Reyes said.
For now, No. 1030 sits covered by plastic sheeting in a vacant lot a
few steps from the paved-over tracks it once traveled on East
Edgeware Road.
Fittingly, the lot is empty because Angelino Heights residents recently
banded together and bought it to block construction of an oversized
building.
"Now we own the land and are putting deed restrictions on the
property, which will prevent forever a condo project or any building
plan that would seriously damage the integrity of this city historical
zone and this delightfully diverse and unique neighborhood," said
resident Planaria Price.
Someday, the neighbors may own their own trolley system, too.
(The preceding report by Bob Pool was published by the Los Angeles
Times on Saturday, June 12, 2004.)
If Philip Anschutz shows up waving a $500 million check, it MIGHT happen.
There is also the trolley line proposal in the Brooklyn Bridge Park project that is still moving along quietly. There are some politics involved just getting the park built, and some things are taking a real long time to develop. In the mean time, there's all this background work that needs to be done before a wheel can turn.
Why, right here where I live, a nine mile section of original D&H railroad was abandoned, and myself and others tried to get some sort of excursion rail usage going. Last week, they started ripping up the tracks, so it's now too late - instead, we're going to have a "bike path" in an area where nobody rides bikes. :-\
Call me empassioned. :)
There is a website coming very soon which will fully explain what is the actual proposal of the Brooklyn City Streetcar Company.
In a nutshell, the one way length of the Brooklyn Bridge Park is 1.5 miles with limited access from Atlantic Ave. to Fulton Ferry due to the Brooklyn Heights cliffs, the isolation of DUMBO from downtown, and the distance of the waterfront from any public transport, especially the subways. Its also a heck of a long walk, even if one is fully able. The streetcar idea solves a good number of the access and transportation problems this Park has. Also, it would be a Brooklyn theme that is in a good number of people's minds. And its environmentally sound. If done the way other cities have so successfully done, its not going to cost an arm and a leg. And it has demonstrated time and again that it works very very well.
Hey, we got the brewerys back, we got a great underdog baseball team back, why not make it a triple and get some REAL streetcars back?
Immediate problems: A space to work in that is near by the operation site. Funding (of course) is another.
The BCSC even have a trolley (stored in PA) that is not a chicken coop to start work on. There are others being negotiated for. It is entirely possible that actual Brooklyn cars could return home.
I think its a great idea, and I'm in full support of it. HOW ABOUT YOU ALL?
*clang clang*
Walking east along along Fulton Mall, I noticed that at Albee Square, on the street that goes north from there, there is a very short section of girder rail exposed. It was most likely the right rail of the old northbound track that DeKalb Avenue trolleys used after they were routed off Fulton Street around 1940. (That was when Fulton Street merchants insisted that the City remove all visible rail lines on Fulton Street, overhead or on the surface.)
The exposed rail was at a rail joint, but I didn't see any curved rail still in place turning onto DeKalb Avenue. (Since I'm not into digging up asphalt on public streets, I didn't try using a ballpoint pen to see if there was more girder rail anywhere in the vicinity.)
I think that side street used to be Gold Street, but amn't certain--a web map I checked says 'Albee Square North.'
One thing I totally forgot to do was to walk over to Willoughby and Flatbush to see if they're ever corrected the "Flatbush Avenue Extention" spelling that was on the street signs years back.
Side questions on Fulton Street--when was the Albee theatre torn down?
And Loew's Metropolitan?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Regards,
Jimmy
Hmmm, a catchy frase, I like it !
We used to have cows next door, but just as Bruno and Paturkey are doing for industry, dairy farms are shuttering up as well around here (anybody check the price of milk lately? There's your answer) as well and the nearest cows now are about 6 miles from here. But woohoo! We're going to get a NANOTECH Park ... heh.
I hear ya bud, but I don't even have a quarter to spare of late.
Like Salaam, I'd like to see Angels Flight restored, but it ain't happening anytime soon.
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/06-14-2004/0002192943&EDATE=
I wonder how long it will take for SUBWAYSURF to suggest that Subtalk's "Darlene" be included.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's nearly impossible to listen to music on the subway. The ambient noise is such that the music can barely be heard at reasonable volumes; you have to jack up the volume to possibly dangerous levels just to hear all of the music and this probably isn't good for your hearing and it most likely annoys the people next to you, too. Headphones that do a better job of rejecting external noise would probably be better. However, the Discman itself sounds like crap anyways so why bother? It was a total flop. I'll just wait for some time to enjoy listening to music at home on a real stereo in a quiet room.
-Robert King
Nyuk, nyuk,
Jimmy
So, as far as I'm concerned, listening to music on the subway is just pointless.
-Robert King
Regards,
Jimmy
hainault
That is correct, but it isn't a complete loop enabling trains to go back exactly the way they came, AFAIK. Kennington is the junction where the two routes of the Northern Line through central London (via Charing Cross and via Bank) rejoin on the south side. Unlike Camden Town at the north side, however, Kennington has only one route proceeding further (the line to Morden) and therefore some trains terminate there. The purpose of the loop is to allow a train that has arrived "via Charing Cross" to return northwards "via Bank" (or vice versa) without reversing.
Heathrow Terminal 4 is a single-platform station, as the loop is only one track and unidirectional (clockwise). The only other single-platform station on the Underground is Mill Hill East.
MillHill East ,Chesham , New Cross and New Cross Gate ??
They could have had both EB and WB platforms to relieve the passenger congestion !
MillHill East ,Chesham , New Cross and New Cross Gate ??
(Did you get to add 'City Hall 'to your collection ? )
Regarding LONDON - There used to be 'revenue' loops at Embankment (Northern Line) before the extension to
Kennington and at Wood Lane before White City station opened.
(No revenue trains 'looped 'round the Circle Line)
A triangle between Moor Park and Rickmansworth towards Watford used to cause trains to' face the wrong way' when compartment stock trains used it but today's A Stock are not affected.
You know about your namesake,of course, where you can go round with one change of train . :-)
Basically, I'm lookin at either takin Amtrak to Hartford, but I can't find any trains back to NYC after 9 that nine, or anything the next day. That said, I may stick with ridin Greyhound. Anyone got any other suggestions? Are there any Amtraks on the 26th(june) southbound(i think it's on the vermonter)?
Oh, and what time did yall say the last riverline train was from Tweeter in Camden, Nj?
The last train to Trenton leaves Entertainment Center at 9 PM Sunday through Friday nights and midnight Saturday night.
Your pal,
Acro
If Philip Anschutz shows up waving a $500 million check, it MIGHT happen.
There is also the trolley line proposal in the Brooklyn Bridge Park project that is still moving along quietly. There are some politics involved just getting the park built, and some things are taking a real long time to develop. In the mean time, there's all this background work that needs to be done before a wheel can turn.
Why, right here where I live, a nine mile section of original D&H railroad was abandoned, and myself and others tried to get some sort of excursion rail usage going. Last week, they started ripping up the tracks, so it's now too late - instead, we're going to have a "bike path" in an area where nobody rides bikes. :-\
Call me empassioned. :)
There is a website coming very soon which will fully explain what is the actual proposal of the Brooklyn City Streetcar Company.
In a nutshell, the one way length of the Brooklyn Bridge Park is 1.5 miles with limited access from Atlantic Ave. to Fulton Ferry due to the Brooklyn Heights cliffs, the isolation of DUMBO from downtown, and the distance of the waterfront from any public transport, especially the subways. Its also a heck of a long walk, even if one is fully able. The streetcar idea solves a good number of the access and transportation problems this Park has. Also, it would be a Brooklyn theme that is in a good number of people's minds. And its environmentally sound. If done the way other cities have so successfully done, its not going to cost an arm and a leg. And it has demonstrated time and again that it works very very well.
Hey, we got the brewerys back, we got a great underdog baseball team back, why not make it a triple and get some REAL streetcars back?
Immediate problems: A space to work in that is near by the operation site. Funding (of course) is another.
The BCSC even have a trolley (stored in PA) that is not a chicken coop to start work on. There are others being negotiated for. It is entirely possible that actual Brooklyn cars could return home.
I think its a great idea, and I'm in full support of it. HOW ABOUT YOU ALL?
*clang clang*
Walking east along along Fulton Mall, I noticed that at Albee Square, on the street that goes north from there, there is a very short section of girder rail exposed. It was most likely the right rail of the old northbound track that DeKalb Avenue trolleys used after they were routed off Fulton Street around 1940. (That was when Fulton Street merchants insisted that the City remove all visible rail lines on Fulton Street, overhead or on the surface.)
The exposed rail was at a rail joint, but I didn't see any curved rail still in place turning onto DeKalb Avenue. (Since I'm not into digging up asphalt on public streets, I didn't try using a ballpoint pen to see if there was more girder rail anywhere in the vicinity.)
I think that side street used to be Gold Street, but amn't certain--a web map I checked says 'Albee Square North.'
One thing I totally forgot to do was to walk over to Willoughby and Flatbush to see if they're ever corrected the "Flatbush Avenue Extention" spelling that was on the street signs years back.
Side questions on Fulton Street--when was the Albee theatre torn down?
And Loew's Metropolitan?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Regards,
Jimmy
Hmmm, a catchy frase, I like it !
We used to have cows next door, but just as Bruno and Paturkey are doing for industry, dairy farms are shuttering up as well around here (anybody check the price of milk lately? There's your answer) as well and the nearest cows now are about 6 miles from here. But woohoo! We're going to get a NANOTECH Park ... heh.
Sometimes the wind pick up jes right...
Your pal,
Fred
Surely the superiority of the subways in London and Paris, as well as in Berlin, Moscow, and Buenos Aires, is due mainly to the fact that those cities are the capitals of highly centralized nations, whereas our system is funded by a perennially impecunious local government. However that may be, the result is that we have been living for 100 years now with a subway that is quite simply unworthy of a great metropolis.
Then he must really be ignorant to think that a 100+ year old system would be bad for the city. We're one of a few systems that has the 4 track set up as well as other things not seen anywhere else.
Is it possible that certain trains, if not most trains, almost always leave from the same track at Penn? I mean, it certainly sounds probable. I notice that every single time I come into Penn, my train comes in on Track 20. And when I depart Penn, more often than not, my train leaves on Track 16.
Whenever I arrive at Penn, and I get off my train, there seem to always be people already waiting on the platform to get on my train. When I look up at the signs over the platform, they're all blank. The signs hadn't yet been set to wherever the train's destination would be. Why would they get getting on, and how do they know where it's going?
I got lucky tonight. I wanted to take the 10:19 PM Port Washington train out of Penn, and it was currently 10:05. At the time, there were already trains assigned to Tracks 17, 19, and 21. The Port Washington train's track hadn't been programmed into the signs yet. On a hunch, I walked over to Track 16's staircase, and peeked down to the track. I saw an M-7 sitting there. I walked down to the platform and took a look....the M-7's signs said it was going to Port Washington. Nobody was on the train, or on the platform. I stood outside the train for a few minutes, watching the platform signs, and waiting for them to start flipping frantically. Finally, after a few minutes of waiting, they flipped to say 10:19 to Port Washington, and somebody got onto the P/A system to announce that the Port Washington train was on Track 16.
Coincidence, or not?
Well not its OWN track, but its set on what track its gonna be leaving/ariving most of the time.
- - - also ensures that ,if the service is running close to the timetable, an unoccupied track is available for an arriving train.
Cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute half-moons.
I think though that the control people at NYP have a schedule they try to follow daily that has a predetermined track for each train.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hopefully it will be truly useful. In addition to giving estimated times of arrival, will it also give estimates of where the next express will pass the next local, and will the signs be visible from trians on the local track? Will information about transfers be given, so passengers can decide where to transfer? (e.g., do I get off here at 59th for the B, or do I stay on to Times Square for the Q, or do I transfer to the express and take that to Atlantic for either one?)
No.
a) be late. KISS means that you get the basic information out first (what’s next and how long, maybe what’s after that and how long). The rest of the information can be Phase 2, so that if the budget is cut, it doesn’t work etc, etc, we still have something. Human beings’ track record for software projects that deliver everything in one big bang is terrible.
b) be confusing.
However, I would like a display that can rotate train information with “B not running. Take F…” messages. That would help stuck geese on GO days.
Agh, that's not a big problem. Merely a matter of design. How about every station has a strip map with progress lights for, say, five stations up the line and five stations down. Simple blinking position lights. With all the advancements in display technology, such a display should be not be difficult to design. Put it over the, uh, token booth. (please, no ragging on that word. I know there're no more tokens.) People would get used to this quickly, I think. Just a standard map...with lights.
Maybe I shouldn't be a subway fan.
"But my tail keeps falling off..."
Makes you wonder why anyone would take it seriously.
When a consist is built for MetroRail in Washington, can you miz and match the new CAF and some older Breda and Rohr cars? Will this be the same with the Alstom cars...also Where are the CAF cars situated right now and how many cars are there right now?
-DYLAN
4 Days Til Scav
Legend:
R-Rohr
B-Unrehabbed Breda
C-CAF
A-Rehabbed Breda (Alstom)
CCRRRR
CCBBCC
BBCCBB
BBCC
BBAA
RRBBRR
BBRRBB
RRBBBB
RRRRBB
Essentially, anything can run with anything, surprising considering how the Rehabs and CAFs have comptuer eqipment the other cars do not have. The most mixing generally occurs on the Red Line.
Actually most of that computer equipment has little or nothing to do with the propulsion and breaking control lines. As long as each of the manufactures cars "speak the same language", for a lack of a better term, on the control lines and the hardware is programmed or designed to respond in the same manner as the other cars their should be little problem running mixed consists.
One of the biggest question that floated around WMATA operations from the time the Rohrs were first delivered to the time New Carrollton yard was opened, will the Rohr cars run with odd numbered car of a set coupled to the odd numbered car of another set, or even to even. During this time WMATA had no way of turning sets to make this test. Needless to say with all of the other bugs the that WMATA dealt with during the first couple years with the Rohr cars this one turned out not to be a problem.
John
Jim D.
I had to play hide-and seak with a cop at 74th ST/Bway on Saturday as I photographed the replacement of the Manhattan-bound station canopy.
Bill "Newkirk"
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
The entry form is at this URL:
http://www.straphangers.org/photoban/contest.htm
"Straphangers' Campaign Photo Contest
Welcome to the NYPIRG Straphangers Campaign's First Annual Subway and Bus Photo Contest!
As the MTA considers a ban on subway and bus photos, film and video, let's give them an eyeful of how transit images enliven our lives and make the system safer, better and more accountable.
The rules are simple. You can submit up to 3 (three) photos in each of two categories:
The first category is "Transit Slice of Life." Photos can depict people in everyday activity, such as snapshots of your family riding the system or riders waiting for a train or a bus. You can also submit photographic images of the system that express what makes the subways and buses so important in our daily lives.
The second category is "The Fixer-Upper." These photos can depict conditions in the subways or buses that need fixing, such as drips (and subway stalactites and stalagmites!) or overcrowded locations.
Completed entries must be submitted via the online entry form to the NYPIRG Straphangers Campaign by 5:00 p.m., Friday, July 30th, 2004.
For more information about your rights to photograph, read: The Photographer's Right - A Downloadable Flyer: Your Rights When Stopped or Confronted for Photography
Judging
Five finalists in each category will be selected by an impartial committee. The Straphangers Campaign will ask our list of 35,000 transit activist subscribers to vote online for their favorite entry in the “Transit Slice of Life” category. The top vote getter will be deemed the winner and will be awarded a $70 unlimited-ride 30-day MetroCard. Each of the four runners-up will receive a $21 unlimited-ride 7-day MetroCard.
Finalists in the “Fixer-Upper” category will be judged by Straphangers Campaign staff and associates. One winner will be selected and awarded a $70 unlimited-ride 30-day MetroCard. Each of the four runners-up will receive a $21 unlimited-ride 7-day MetroCard.
The decision of the impartial committee on the finalists and the winners is final, as are the result of the online vote for the winner of the “Transit Slice of Life” category.
The Straphangers Campaign will submit all “Fixer Upper” finalists to transit officials to resolve the problem, as well as the finalists in the “Transit Slice of Life” category.
Click here to see complete Contest Rules.
How To Enter
All entries must conform to the following requirements:
JPEG or GIF format only
250K or lower file size
400x300 pixel size max "
Huh??? That means only photo entries from camera phones would qualify, it's barely 0.7 MP.
Does the overhead 3rd rail at Grand Central Terminal still exsist? Is it energized? If it was removed, might there be a way to get it back? Might there be a way to squeeze 12.5kvAC Catenary over certain tracks at GCT?
Also how did the EP-5s use the overhead 3rd rail? Did they have mini-pans for the 3rd rail, or did they use the pantograph that picked up the 11.5kv off the catenary? If a modern version of the EP-5 were made, might it be possible to use modern high voltage electronic switching gear to take the 750vdc off an overhead 3rd rail to the IGBT without another pantograph?
Thanks in advance.
Since 12 kV catenary was installed at Penn Station replacing a similar third rail system I don't see overheard at GCT being impossible, but it has been said here before that there are some clearance issues in thew old Park Ave tunnel so it just wouldn't be worth the cost.
From examining the photographic evidence, the Mini-pan on the EP-5 was located right behind one of the main pans on the roof, just like what was done with the EP-4 and EP-3.
Some NYC Q motors were used on the NJ with a pantograph and were later converted to third rail and bought back to GCT, thought those might have been the ones.
Anyway, weren't the E-10's in use until fairly recently for various GCT duties? There was an article not to long ago about MNRR buying a new lo-emmision diesels to replace their "antique" electric switchers.
That's assuming push mode for all inbound trains. (I suspect some foamers would have re-routed AEM7- or HHP8-hauled trains from Boston in mind for this versus P32AC-DM-hauled commuter trains.)
Besides, couldn't an overhead third-rail detector be installed similar to the third-rail detectors that M2/4/6 have that tell them to drop the pantographs (but in this instance telling the third-rail pantograph to raise and make contact) . . . ? As they said while Steve Austin's life was hanging in the balance, "We have the technology" :-P (and have had it for decades)
Where I come from they call it Overhead Wire - even Southern Electric and Newcastle "third rail " Locos used it.
What do we call the' Four-Rail 'Jumper cables used to move trains in London car sheds ?
Going under all of those stations would require deep stations and a lot of engineering. The IND Jamaica line runs together with the 6 Av subway there and the 6 Av El ran over 55 St. The 6 and 9 Av Els were probably going to be replaced by subway so a near overlap was desirable.
I think you might want to rephrase that. Elevated portion UNDER 53rd St????
The second system would have rendered almost all of the elevated portions of the eastern division redundant.
The Stuyvesant/Utica, Myrtle/Central/Rockaway and the Winfield Spur would have either directly followed or closely followed every elevated portion of the eastern division outside Jamaica Ave (which was slated to be kept) and the Canarsie line.
Besides, those plans indicated that if the SS went through, virtually all homes would have subway access within one-half of a mile. I can't even begin to fathom how amazing that would've been: better than the crap that are the Private Bus Lines, crooked liveries and illegal dollar vans we have plaguing Queens today.
If everything had been built, the subway system would today be a monstrous entity which would collapse under the fiscal weight of both providing service and maintaining the infrastructure. The plans were not made to compliment the existing lines, but to compete with them (either directly or indirectly by expanding into areas the 2 private companies sought to).
Hmmm... we have NYT on microfilm, I wonder if we have some that old. Have to look and see.
Elias
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/indsecond.html
I think the choice of 53 street may have had more to do with engineering concerns, because the crosstown line turns north and south at Eighth Avenue. They needed sufficient length to link up with the Eighth Ave line at Columbus Circle. The 50th Street station, however, extending as far as 52 Street, was too close and so a lower level station was constructed for the line from 53 Street.
Why not do the same under 9 Av? Arguably ridership would be greater for that line with no 2 over 2 configuration needed because both sides of the street are used.
In Stan Fisher's "The Subway", he mentions the NYCTA originally chose 64th Street as the location for the new IND/LIRR tunnel. But Rockefeller University and New York Hospital-Cornell University opposed the 64 Street plan because tunnel drilling would be directly under their site. So 63rd Street was chosen instead.
The real scandal is that they didn't choose 61st St for a better connection to the Lex.
Tue Jun 15, 4:27 AM ET Add Local - New York Post to My Yahoo!
By CLEMENTE LISI
A transit advocacy group that wants to kill a proposed ban on taking photos on buses and the subway encouraged riders yesterday to snap pictures for a contest it's running to protest the restriction.
"Let's give transit officials an eyeful on how transit images enliven our lives and make the system safer, better and more accountable," said Gene Russianoff, staff lawyer for the Straphangers Campaign.
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority (news - web sites) last month proposed banning taking photos and videotaping on buses and subways to prevent terrorists gathering information about the system. The MTA was acting on a request from the NYPD.
For the Straphangers photo contest, shutterbugs can submit up to three photos in each of two categories by July 30. The winners will receive a free 30-day MetroCard.
The two categories are: "Transit Slice of Life," photos depicting "everyday activity" on the transport system, and "The Fixer-Upper," which must show "conditions in the subways or on buses that need fixing."
The MTA said the media and others who have obtained "written authorization" from them will not be prevented from taking photos by the ban.
The ban will give cops the authority to question anyone taking pictures or shooting film and give officers the option of issuing a summons or confiscating the film.
The MTA board will vote on the ban in September.
ps the petition just hit 100 signatures.
http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/notransitpicban
If anyone knows or has a list on train desinations that are on the T Train Information Board at South Station in Boston, please post it.
The answer remains the same.
Go to the MBTA Web site, and look at the .pdf commuter rail schedules. The outbound terminals for all trains are listed. That will match the train destinations on the Solari Board at South Station.
Not true. There is a whole bunch of "hidden" destinations that were either once thought to be terminals, reserved for future use, or short-turn locations that aren't featured on the official timetable. For example "Hyannis" is a destination on the Solari boards (and I only know this because one time it got stuck and Hyannis was showing).
The same book points out that it was the el station at 8th Street and First Avenue (of the Second Avenue el) to which most walking survivors rode home. About 300 survived of about 1,300.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com, now slapping myself silly, lol!)
Yes there is! If you reasonably believe that his crime rose to that level. Unfortunately, the courts did not agree.
Actually, a person CAN be convicted of murder for an unintentional killing. It would happen if a person engaged in an action that is so outrageously reckless that any reasonable person would have known that it created a grave risk of death. An example might be demonstrating your new assault rifle by firing it wildly in a crowded club.
The unlawful killing of a human being with deliberate intent to kill: (1) murder in the first degree is characterized by premeditation; (2) murder in the second degree is characterized by a sudden and instantaneous intent to kill or to cause injury without caring whether the injury kills or not.
It is very, very doubtful that he intended to smash into the rear of another train on the bridge. Therefore, it was not intentional and he cannot be tried for murder.
Had they not screwed with the BRAKES (those horrible composite pieces of crap instead of REAL cast iron shoes) to satisfy the whining public ("oh, those subway cars are TOO LOUD") then he might have retired in peace and we wouldn't have TIMERS as a solution to bad braking profiles. That the train couldn't have been tripped and stopped by the THEN EXISTING signals (which served the old cast-irons just FINE thank you) is testament to a lot of bad decisions. And of course, the motorman fell asleep which DIRECTLY caused the "collision" though the signals SHOULD have stopped the train on time.
But I *still* blame the composite shoes. Cast iron shoes and proper dynamic profiles WOULD have stopped it. So TIMERS and wheel detectors (I can't fathom the WD's) were the solution, according to MTA lawyers, and the village rejoiced. ("yay.") :(
R-32.
R-32.
I agree with you there. I don't think carbon conducts electricity though.
R-32
It is not my intent to weigh in on the issue of capital punishment here, but just to say that if you mean you feel Ray should have been excecuted, then say "he should have been executed" rather than "he should have been tried for first degree murder," because the two are not the same thing.
Just being picky,
Mark
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
He was the T/O in the Union Square Wreck that left four pax dead and many injured. Evidence establsihed that he had been intoxicated while operating the train.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Sorry if I seem as though I am following a railroad adage with respect to accidents.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
It's late and I don't have time to do a thorough search of the archives right now, so I will have to do this from memory (which hasn't failed completely yet).
The route was established from the express to the local. Therefore the signals approaching the switch were on time. He exceeded the required speed and the home signal (at least) did not clear, and the train was tripped. However the train speed was not sufficiently reduced by the time the first car took the points and the derailment ensued. It was determined that the home signal was too close to the switch to provide positive switch protection for a train travelling at maximum attainable speed. This accident gave us a systemwide switch survey and wheel detectors at switches that were similarly vulnerable. (The Williamsburg Bridge accident gave us the signal survey and eventually the installation of seemingly useless timers on straight track. Their purpose is to reduce the maximum attainable speed of the train since the next signal(s) provides insufficient stopping distance in emergency braking to prevent a rear end collision. Surprisingly, the IND was the biggest offender in this category. Other solutions were applied at other locations as required and appropriate.)
The terminal dispatcher should have been at least disciplined for failing to detect an intoxicated employee. S/he probably was.
Towermen have no way of knowing.
Towermen ought to see if a train is being operated eratically, and could have gien him a red signal, and let him stew where he was untill the TSS gets there.
Elias
Let me take this even further, down to Burnside Avenue. That is a station at which if a train is flagging stops, it must almost always stop at no matter what. If the lights clear there less than 45 seconds or so apart, IMO, someone in the tower should have said something. Of course, radio transcripts would also have to be looked at to see whether or not flagging had been authorized. Certainly, it likely was not authorized, flagging I mean.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
There is an element of human nature that doesn't want to get somebody else busted -- especially if it's somebody we know. We see it all the time here, when somebody post details about a (usually) minor incident ("My X train overshot the platform at 255 Street today at 3:20 PM"). Many of us will jump on the poster for possibly getting somebody in trouble.
Nobody likes a rat. If the C/R calls the TSS and they take Mr. Ray off the train at 125 Street, then the crash never happens. Of course, the C/R becomes known as the guy who caused Mr. Ray to get fired/suspended/demoted or whatever (and since nobody figures that a crash would have happened -- after all, Mr. Ray had apparently driven drunk a few times before -- the C/R is just a rat, not a hero who saved 4 or 5 lives).
CG
But it seems that Ray overshot a number of stations, and missed a couple altogether - when single isolated incidents (which happen) start becoming repetitive, that's when it's time to pull the plug.
No, it's very unlikely that a crash would have been averted, because chances are the run would have completed without any further serious incident. Then again, maybe it would not have.
If I may stir the pot a little here... perhaps it is precisely those "zero tolerance" and "throw the book at em" policies that cause people to cover for their friends or try to obstruct investigations...
-- All of this comes from some book- i forget which, but it seemed quite trustworthy.
I actually have some sympathy for the C/R. He was in a very difficult position, forced to choose between a possible safety hazard or disciplinary action. Had I been in his shoes, I really can't say that I would have done anything different.
There is such a thing as negligence or recklessness, in which someone, while not deliberately wanting to cause harm, acts in such a way that the potential for harm is greatly increased, and the types of precautions that "normal" people would take are not heeded. I use "normal" in quotes because there's no concrete definition of normalcy
The other extreme, though, is shutting down at every little thing - if your T/O, who you've worked with for months without incident, suddenly overshoots one station stop, do you have the entire train pulled instantly out of service, fouling up service on the entire line and inconveniencing thousands of passengers? Do you react like this every single time some little tiny anomaly occurs? This is, as John/Qtrain would say, wearing diapers. This is closing down an entire subway line for 3 hours because you find a lunch box under the seat, or closing an entire airport terminal because someone finds a toenail clipper in a "secure area" garbage can.
Many "zero tolerance" policies are like this as well; in fact almost by definition they allow zero tolerance and impose draconian countermeasures for even the tiniest anomaly. They're good for politicians to vote for, though, since it makes it sound like they're "tough" - tough on terrorists, tough on street thugs, tough on drunks, tough on kids who raid the cookie jar for dinner, etc. But such policies, by virtue of their strict precepts, encourage deceit and encourage tempting fate to avoid running afoul of the rules - you can face the music for some wrong (and lose your head in the process), or commit more wrongs (perhaps far worse in the long run, since "zero tolerance" policies tend to target smaller risks that make bigger headlines - drunk driving vs. heart disease, or sending money to terrorists vs. sending money to Saudi oil tycoons) in order to cover up the first wrong.
So yes, I feel for the C/R too - besides having to go through the accident itself, he/she has to deal with the fact that maybe, in their heart of hearts, maybe they could have done something. But then again, in a culture that tends to favor one extreme or the other, usually hands are tied.
And maybe *that* is a function of "Zero Tolerence". That is a shitty way to treat the people who work for you. They are people: the are a valuable resource to the company who has invested time and money in their training. There needs to be some sort of a way to rehabilitate peopel without thier loosing thier jobs. Sometimes that too is necessary, but if it were possible for the C/R to pull the train and the T/O out of service, knowing that the T/O would get help, and that there would be no reprcutions... A period of help in a rehab center, followed by employment in a safer part of the operation, under beter supervision and mentorship... With a posibility of being promoted to T/O again if possible...
These thing make for better morale, better industrial relationships, and a better work environment.
BTW: Do they have to give him his job back when he gets out?
Elias
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Of course, in real life, we really DO shut an entire subway line for three hours because of a discarded lunch box nad close an airport terminal for a toe nail clipepr!
There are other ways of dealing with this. For example, as C/R on that run, I would probably have manufactured a mechanical defect that requires to take the train out of service, if I thought what he was doing was unsafe.
Alternatively, just dump the passengers, take the train OOS, then refuse to give the bell until I have personally walked to the front of the train and talked to Mr Ray about the issue, and possibly ride in the front cab until the end of the line. There will be lots of explaining to do later, but I would have done it to save Mr Ray's ass.
Also, I could have called a TSS that I personally knew, but may not have been on duty, to ride with the T/O.
There are various ways of 'busting' people without throwing the book at them. Certainly Unions typically have programs where employee can be taken O/O/S and treatment administered. Mr Ray's drinking habits would be well known throughout the crew -- and this is where the Union can help prevent a problem.
AEM7
The C/R could have pulled the string, Locked his cab door, and called the police.
Elias
I do believe that the line *was* tied up anyway, and not just out in the sticks, but a major mane lion in the city.
Elias
Yup... tying up one track for about an hour, instead of all four for about four days. Hindsight is 20/20, but...
Elias
what about blowing through red signals? wouldn't that trip the timers and derail the train?
Nope. BIE will almost NEVER derail a train. Splitting a switch will, but not a normal BIE.
Somebody tamering with a hand brake can derail a train. That can stringline a train if done on a curve, or part it if done elsewhere.
Elias
let's say you approach a red signal, with one of those little yello wtimers/derailers (i forget their official name) in the "up" position.
won't that automatically derail a train that goes over it? isn't that the point?
won't that automatically derail a train that goes over it? isn't that the point?"
The names are "trips" and no, they will not derail a train. The trip arms activate the emergency brakes when passing a red signal. There used to be a derailer on the Lex at 125 St but not sure if it's still there.
Regards,
Jimmy
Nope. You never find derails on the main lines.
Those are trippers. There is a similar tripper on the underside of the car. If those two trippers come in contact, the rigid one on the track pushes over the tripper on the train which simply opens the brake line to the atmosphere, putting the train BIE.
Derails are found in sidings. They are huge pieces of cast iron, painted yellow that sit on top of one of the rails. It will physically lift a wheel off of the rail and set it on the ground. Another kind of a derail is built like a switch point that simply diverts the train to the ground.
These devices are used to protect the main line from a car rolling out of the yard on its own. So look to find a derail about 50 feet or so from the fouling point where a siding joins the main line. Even then, they probably will not other with them if gravity is pointed in the other direction, away from the main line.
Elias
Regards,
Jimmy
Yes, this fits the criteria that I explianed to you. The Northbound track from the tunnel into Whitehall Street is to be considered the main line, and the center track at Whitehall is to be considered the siding.
The derail then, protects the mainline from having laid up cars rolling out and fouling the main line.
Elias
The derailers are on the spur that goes from the S/B express track at 125th to the S/B local. IIRC they prevent the train from rolling back into 125th St, but no protection is offered for the mainline should the train go south.
There is no such spur that goes S/B to N/B. To go S/B to N/B requires a reverse move from the S/B express over the switch N/O 125 St, as work trains do every night.
right?
No. He had either a yellow or a green signal, almost certainly yellow, since he was changing tracks, but in either case the tripper would have been down to allow the passage of the train. That he was going 30 mph or more faster than the switch is engineered for is not detected by the signal.
Elias
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Nope. He overran the first 2 or 3 stations after leaving Woodlawn. At least that's how the story goes.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
He was still drunk when he was found, that's how they busted him. Since the possesion of the vial couldn't be proved, he couldn't be charged with that.
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i7000/img_7661.jpg
Gash! Thats a nasty picture. Looks like it got some of the Suits out of Jay Street.
Elias
So, you are telling me that the suits never did crawl out of Jay Street to make a look-see. Maybe they submitted their expense report, and then just included the photo to 'prove' that they really stepped outside of the office for this one.
Besides, even Jay Street Suits would have to have been wearing hardhats in that zone, probably an orange vest too.
Elias
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
I wonder what exactly went wrong.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
2. Will Lady Grace be at one of the T/O's working the trip ?
Join the trip and find out.
-Chris
You're probably thinking of City Hall/IRT where it is part of a loop from the downtown to uptown platforms at Brooklyn Bridge.
Whats the deal of this disused station? Anymore photos?
And I'm tired as hell, so Plaque? I keep thinking 2 thinks, the thing you put on the wall, or the disease. Which are you refering to.
Here's another noteworthy plaque commemorating FDR's FWA SIRT grade crossing elimination. This plaque is under the overpass on Richmond Av.
-Chris
Any photos of the Beach plaque?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Plack means:
1a) a C15/16 Dutch Coin
1b) a coin of James III of Scotland, or its C15/16 copper version (worth 4d Scots)
1c) in proverbial phrases, something worthless - "not worth a plack" utterly worthless, "plack and bawbee" or "plack and boddle" to the last farthing, etc
1d) something which costs a plack
2) an obsolete form of "placket" in the sense of a plan or map
3) an obscure dialectic word for a shapeless heap
4) variant form of "playock", meaning a plaything, a toy
Plaque, on the other hand, means:
1a) an ornamental plate or tablet (often inscribed)
1b) a small ornamental tablet worn as a badge of high rank in an honorary order
1c) a counter used in gambling
1d) a metal plate used for separating the two parts of a double reed for a musical instrument whilst it is being manufactured
2a) in pathology, a patch or eruption
2b) in anatomy, a small flat discoidal formation
2c) in medicine, a patch of fibrous tissue or fatty matter on the wall of an artery, or the substance of which the patch is made
2d) in dentistry, a patch of bacterial deposit adhered to the tooth, or the substance of which it is made
2e) in biology, a relatively clear area in a culture of micro-organisms or other cells, produced by the inhibitory or lethal effects of a virus or other agent
3) in medicine, a flat applicator containing radium or its salts, formerly placed over cancerous tissue as a treatment
The upper level City Hall station was intended as a terminal for Broadway locals, with the lower level serving Broadway express service. These trains would then continue to Brooklyn via Montague St. During construction, the plans changed and the Broadway expresses were routed via the Manhattan Bridge and the locals via Montague St. Canal Street was originally intended to be a local station (which is why there are express tracks running thru the station.
What I don't understand is why the locals weren't routed to the lower level platforms north of Canal St, instead of the current alignment. The upper level could have served as a full-length mezzanine.
Your pal,
Fred
"This is Nevins Street. The next stop on this Bay Ridge bound #2 is Pacific Street".
Trains from the Manhattan Bridge were originally slated to run along a never completed Canal St. subway all the way to the Hudson River.
-Chris SINY_
Or something.
Times Square 7 station at 10:30
more info
Which speaking of OPTO, there are OPTO markers still on the West End line, even though the line is not longer OPTO during late nights.
Second paragraph is allowing OPTO without a C/R.
Rule 98 (Train Operator0 item c
They (T/O's) are under the orders of the Conductor assigned to their train in regard to starting, stopping and general operation of the train between terminals but they shall not obey any order that may endanger the saftey of the train or passangers or which may involve a violation of the rules.
David
The conductor is supposed to be in charge of the train.
The engineer is supposed to operate the train safely.
The train goes when the conductor waves his flashlight up and down (or gives whatever other signal he might.
The train stops when he waves his light the other way.
Both the conductor and the engineer must sign the track warrants, and agree on how to do what they do.
But it is the conductor that decides how to set out cars and to pick them up. These days, he is also the one to get down onto the ground to throw the switches, and to pull the coupling leavers. He tells the engineer how he wants the train moved.
BNSF already uses only conductors in the freight yards, them on the ground and controlling the locomotives with a remote control device. There is no engineer or crewman on the engine.
BNSF is also working with fully remote controled trains, using GPS and running everything from Ft. Worth. It is said that there will be an "attendant" on the train, but that he or she will not be driving the train. They are to assure that the locomotives keep working, and are to handle some problems, but they need not even be in the lead unit.
Elias
Both. It's actually a good system. The conductor technically has authority over the T/O, but if the T/O refuse to move the train, the C/R can't move the train. If T/O decides to take off without C/R permission, not only is it a rule violation, C/R can also activate brakes. So in fact both have to agree for the train to move.
More information
http://www.general-slocum.com/
Want to firm up plans for Saturday morning. How does the Friendship Heights platform at the Glenmont end (under Jenifer St pod) at the time I mentioned in the other thread sound? I think it was 8:20 but can verify that when I get home later tonight.
Thanks,
Oren
Mark
E: same service
F: same service through 53 rd
R: same service through 60 th
G: Kings hwy to 71 ave (all times)
V: Euclid Ave to 71 ave via fulton express and 8th/6th ave/63rd st local from W4
Q: CI to 179th via bway/ 63rd st /QB Express
1) We can figure out how to turn a train at 71 Ave without having
to clear out homeless first.
2) We either increase fleet speed or wait for the B division fleet
to expand with the R-160 order.
Or sometimes they keep a train down there longer than expected or a V/R swap that might piss off some people.
It's just not the world we live in. Maybe on the back of the MetroCard, there could be a line like "Swiping this card revokes your right to sue the TA!"
David
-Chris
Not at all. While there were some claims to the contrary, according to most testimony he handled the steep BB downgrade quite well. Now, Luciano did take the wrong lineup at Franklin/Fulton, but he followed the correct procedures in getting back onto the proper route.
Not according to Stan Fischler's book, which seems to be the best-researched account of the crash. Which isn't to say that other versions say otherwise. Surviving passengers disagreed as to whether Luciano had control of the train on the Brooklyn Bridge downgrade, though most said he did. It's not hard to imagine similar disagreement over the train's speed at the junction.
-Julian
What about the Greatful Dead's assertion that he was high on cocaine?
Until 1903, cocaine was an ingredient of Coca-Cola(R). Heroin, which was isolated in 1868, was hailed as a nonaddicting treatment for morphine addiction and alcoholism. States began to enact control and prescription laws and, in 1906, Congress passed the Pure Food and Drug Act. It was designed to control opiate addiction by requiring labels on the amount of drugs contained in products, including opium, morphine, and heroin. It also required accurate labeling of products containing alcohol, marijuana, and cocaine.
The Harrison Act (1914) imposed a system of taxes on opium and coca products with registration and record-keeping requirements in an effort to control their sale or distribution. However, it did not prohibit the legal supply of certain drugs, especially opiates.
So DID Casey? Probably.
The thing that puzzles everyone is why was he going so fast through that area. He knew he had to saw by(or w/e that term was) the other train on the siding cuz it'd be too long to fit the entire siding(though it was the front of the stopped train that was supposed to be on the main track)
Now I might be wrong but the way I heard it was when Mary Jo K. asked Ted how they are going home, Ted replied, "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it".
Who would be more familiar with the controls of a modern subway train?
If it were a wooden gate car I'd choose Luciano, other wise maybe Colin Ferguson?
Probably pick Robert Ray if he were sober.
Conductor survives under PTC
NEW YORK, N.Y. -- The New York City Transit Authority intends to
replace subway motormen with positive train control (PTC), leaving
the conductor as the only crew member under computerized train
operation, reports Trains magazine in its July 2004 issue.
The computer operated subway trains are scheduled to begin
operation in March 2005 on the Transit Authority's L Line, which runs
from 14th Street and 8th Avenue in Manhattan to Canarsie in
Brooklyn.
Other routes are expected also to be equipped with positive train
control, with the entire subway system computer operated by 2025,
said the Transit Authority.
The only crew member remaining, reported Trains magazine would be
the conductor, who would operate the doors.
June 15, 2004
It will run from the new Control Center which looks like a Bond movie set.
As for the C/Rs. They are making the C/R jobs on the L temp jobs (subject to cancellation) next pick. They have also measured the T/O position for monitors that see train length in at least a few stations.
Getting the station agents out of the booths will be another factor in this.
Somebody'd better be up front; 'cause Mr. Murphy is sure to be onboard for *every* run.
On second thought, maybe it would be better to put his tower on automatic. Automatic towers don't forget about trains.
That's right, the "conductor" would have to be trained, and would presumbably by paid, as a T/O who could stop the train if there was something on the tracks and start the train if the system went down.
Welcome to 1970 guys!
Oh yeah, and if the thing gets locked in a loop, the watchdog timer causes a reset, everything dumps, and the timer beats the CPU over it's head until it grows up again. It's even better than an alertor, cause it needs to be 'hit' every 2 seconds and you can control when/where the CPU hits it (heh:)
Unless they're just talking about the titles, firing all the C/R's and renaming the T/O position.
Conductors:
97 (Bravo)Conductors who are assigned to revenue train service have charge of thier trains and are responsible for the safety , reqularity, and proper care and condition of trains and such orders that they may givenot conficting with the Rules and regulations of special instructions must be obeyed. Where C/R's are NOT assigned to revenue train service Train Operators will be in complete charge of thier trains.
Also keep in mind if the train has a failure and manual operation is needed C/R's can Not operate the train.
Its always possable for rule to be changed but I really think there would be a problem if they trained C/R's to operate trains. The Union would be all uptight over it.
The new proceedure will be is the T/O and C/R will both show up at Rockaway Pkwy for duty. The T/D on duty will flip a coin to see which one will go down the road. If it lands on heads the T/O will go down the road and the C/R A. Be reassigned to Platfrom and required to do jumping jacks to promote fitness. B Hand Switching. C. Will be sent home and told to try again tomorrow.
If its Tails the C/R goes down the road with the T/O training the C/R until Bway Junction where the C/R will continue to 8 Ave on thier own. Then the T/O will report back to Rockway Pkwy where they will A. Be ressigned to Yard and fight with the computer who is telling the T/O how to operate. B. Platfrom but will be required to do 50 Push ups to promote fitness. C. Go home and try again
C/R's are doing Jumping Jacks and T/O's are doing Push Ups this is so the Local supervision can tell the diffrence between the two titles.
Now gimme 50, puke!!
Someone tell the sellout RCO union that PTC is not computer-operated train control. Oh, and BART and WMATA still have train operators—even if you can get a computer to think clearer than a human, you'll still need that human backup.
-Chris
Sorry for all the questions but I havent been in the subway for a while. Im going RFing tomorrow.
Thanks in advance.
Also, heres a new pic of the SIR Dongan Hills station. I was there last Friday and I saw a guy come up onto the St. George-bound platform (I was on the Tottenville going home from work), and he started taking lots of pictures. I wonder if he is on SubTalk?
-Chris
-Chris
Your post is about as useful as my saying that I discovered yesterday that the MVM at Herald Square doesn't have Centennial MetroCards. (Which MVM? Oh, the one immediately to the right of the exit to the west side of 6th at 35th. Glad you asked!)
-Chris
hope that helps.
-Chris
Peace.
ANDEE
Sample
-Chris
Bergen Street (F, G) has them.
-RJM
One of your best posts ever. And the best use of the word "bustitution" I've heard in a while. Neverless, the situation down there looks bad.
Expect to see buses on Route 15 (as before) and also on Route 10 ( see other posts on this) for a long time , like many months.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
I long for the "good old days" when news readers actually paid attention to what they read on the air.
Have fun on the MOD trip Saturday, I'm going to DC.
Chuck Greene
Now back to South Philly, the tradition is to park your car right in the middle of Broad Street!
Mark
I did that 35 years ago visiting during a visit to my wife at Methodist Hospital while she was recovering from childbirth (our daughter's birthday was last Thursday). I sought a parking space in vain, then saw all the cars parked in the middle of Broad Street, with no tickets on their windshields, so I parked there too. When I came out, we all had parking tickets.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Listening to SEPTA's trunked radio system the past week has offered some funny and at times stupid actions, questions, etc. by SEPTA employees...paritularly on the bus lines. Obviously, going into detail would be a violation of FCC rules since we're not supposed to divulge communications specifics that we hear on the radio. But, trust me, some pretty lame stuff goes on.
The other thing is - and the 15 and 10 lines would seem to be good examples - does SEPTA's managerial right hand know what its left hand is doing? I mean, come on...doesn't someone in management and planning think about things like -- well -- running a PCC car up a two-way street?
I am not complaining. I am just amuzed by some of what SEPTA does. And if someone who has only been here for three weeks can hear about all of the snafus that go on in a day, the politicos in Harrisburg have to know, as well, and must take this into account when funding is mentioned (as it is currently).
Come on boys...just keep the trains, trollies, subways, and busses running at reasonable service levels. And then work out your idiosyncracies.
Most notably, the 14, 17, 18, 20, 21, 23, 33, 42, 47, 48, 52, 58, 60, and 66 (and to a lesser extent, Route 65) are the bus routes SEPTA cares enough to TRY to keep on schedule, AND running at a decent frequency. Mind you, out of ALL of them, ONLY the 21, 48, and 58 have any overnight downtime; the rest run through the night, and VERY frequently during the day. The highest frequencies for the suburbs usually is 30 minutes, but you get 10-15 on a few. The 99, 104, 109, 110, 113, 117/119, and 123 are quite favored. The 108 is as well, but the City division owns half of it. Unreasonable? Yes, a few other corridors could do with half-hourly service.
Regional Rail is hard to speak for. It's an exclusive sort of service, geared mostly to the forward commute (into city by morning, away by evening), with some reverse-commute volume on selected lines. Their most heavily used line is their most frequent by peak service, but tied with it's other half (I speak of the R5 here, the "other" half being the Lansdale/Doylestown branch), and the R1 Airport during mid-day weekday hours. It's tied with the R1 Saturdays, and half as frequent Sundays. The R1 is half-hourly all week, 5:30 AM to midnight, but is little used as a regular run. Most people on it either commute to/from Eastwick, or are headed out of town on a flight. So it seems to have an unreasonable frequency, at least until you factor in airline departure times and a need to get there at almost any given moment in time.
By use, the R5 Malvern/Thorndale should be most frequent, then the R7 Trenton, R1, and the R6 Norristown. The rest seem relatively self-contained; never too crowded, never too empty.
As far as the 10-15 situation. SEPTA jumped the gun on havng the K cars pulled from Elmwood so soon for both. The 10 could have stayed there a while longer while they worked ot the situation around Callowhill. The 15 used K cars in 1995 briefly, so no problem. At the time, the 10 was bussing to 33rd Street due to street construction on Lancaster Ave. And there, you jump to the other FOUR lines, no extra cars for the 10. Of course, the 10's cars were on the 15 (but from 63rd & Malvern to Richmond & Cumberland; buses ran the trips turning back at 63rd & Girard, and ran a shuttle from Cumberland St to Westmoreland Loop), but now they're just gathering dust. SEPTA should have left the ops for the 10 at Elmwood, moved the 15 there temporarily, and run the trolleys ALL from Elmwood until te Callowhill problems were fixed. The PCC II problems are the easier ones to overcome, at least when compared to traffic concerns on 59th Street. People will just have to DEAL with it, the trolleys are coming back, and there's not a damn thing they can do about it. Of course, getting the people to admit defeat is a long, arduous task, but look who they'd have to go to. The city. And the city is who ordered the line restored to trolley operations in the first place. So for Philadelphia officials, it's a touch of the ol' double-edged sword.
I could just see the expressions to come up on South Philadelphia and Germantown/Mt Airy resident's faces if the city orders trolleys back on the 23... kiss you precious parking spaces and double parking goodbye!
During the first month or so of Mayor Street's first term he launched a blitz to remove a thousand abandoned cars from the streets each day for 40 days. He was all over the papers and TV at the wheel of a tow truck hauling the cars away himself. Despite the silly media grandstanding, it actually succeeded and somehwere around 40,000 abandoned cars were removed. The fact that there are still so many left speaks volumes about the state of the city.
Mark
IMHO, the answer is F$%K NO! They enforce the laws on the politically powerless. If you know someone in City Government, then a different style of enforcement is performed.
Don't get me started on Traffic Court, the most corrupt place on Earth!
You've got that right! I remember hearing on WHYY news about a month ago how one member of city council actually had the gall to suggest that one way to help ease the traffic problems in Center City would be to start enforcing traffic laws. He was quickly rebuffed by another council member who told him that the citizens might not like it if the city interfered with their right to drive through red lights in the bus-only lane.
Can you believe that! A city government that is afraid to enforce simple traffic laws out of fear of backlash? I'm not sure who is worse, the crybaby drivers who think they should be able to do whatever they want or the spineless politicians who lets them!
I think the most telling sign of how bad things have gotten is the proliferation of ATVs roaring up and down Philly's streets. It's illegal to even drive these things on the streets, let alone breaking the speed limit going the wrong way on them! I've learned that this unique to Philly. Other cities that enforce their traffic laws don't have this problem, if I understand correctly.
Mark
Remember Angel Ortiz, who drove around in a City car for how many years without a drivers licence? If that were you or I, we'd be in jail for a year or two. Him? oh, that's ok, just don't do it again, & get a d/l.
"I think the most telling sign of how bad things have gotten is the proliferation of ATVs roaring up and down Philly's streets. It's illegal to even drive these things on the streets, let alone breaking the speed limit going the wrong way on them! I've learned that this unique to Philly. Other cities that enforce their traffic laws don't have this problem, if I understand correctly. "
Damn, they're in Philly too? Thought it was just New jersey rednecks that did that - my neighbor's TEN YEAR OLD has one....
That's what I find so odd. When I was a kid in Philadelphia, Mississippi, everyone was riding them. No big deal; that's what I expect in a semi-rural Southern town. But I'm surprised 20 years later to see hip urban kids now taking their cues from rural kids down south.
Mark
Let's face it, even though NYC and Chicago also has reputations for corruption like Philly, at least those cities will MAKE A DECENT EFFORT at enforcing basic traffic laws. Philly can't do even that, and they wonder why people no longer live in the city.
I think a big part of SEPTA's problem is how it sees itself. I get the idea that it doesn't view itself as a valuable piece of infrastructure necessary for the health of a city so much as a charity for all those losers who are too lazy to work hard enough to be able to afford cars. "If they want nice rides, they can drive!" SEPTA seems to be telling us a lot of the time.
Other times I think SEPTA's management views the agency as a tool for handing out favors and contracts to their cronies. Quality of service is irrelevant to these ends.
Another problem is that while most of SEPTA's ridership is in the city, most of the representatives on its board represent suburban constituencies. This means the needs of its largest block of riders often take a back seat to those of suburban commuters. Just look at how the Roosevelt Boulevard subway proposal, which lies entirely in the city, gets very little attention for SEPTA while the suburban Schuylkill Valley Metro gets the spotlight all to itself. This is odd, considering the Boulevard project has much higher ridership estimates. What's more, it would stand a very good chance of getting funded by the feds if it were ever pursued seriously, having ranked very highly using the FTA criteria for projects they like to fund. Meanwhile the feds laughed out loud when the SVM proposal was submitted. But the suburbs are more important in SEPTA's eyes, so SVM plans are still on the front page while the only time the Boulevard gets mentioned anywhere is when I write a letter to the Inquirer about it.
I hope I haven't ruined Philly for you with all this doom and gloom. I really enjoy living here, and I hope you will too. But I'm not blind to the problems that exist.
Mark
Is this the one where Kramer goes nuts for gyros sold at Queens Plaza?
Thanks Dave for posting this again. (Now I just got to remember to watch a few of these things). There are quite a few documentaries that look interesting too.
I have no idea what George was doing.
By the way, while the "train" interior footage is definitely fake (looks sort of like an play on an R68 or R62), there is quite a bit of real station footage. One of the stations they show looks sort of like either 23rd St or 28th St on the Lexington line.
Yes, Kramer does get mugged and he manages to find the perp, but not before an undercover cop busts him. :)
The Full House episode was pretty unrealistic. I swear they used stock NYC subway footage.
As for the Seinfeld episode, the interiors actually look a bit convincing. I don't think they acknowledge the width differences in A and B division.
I did remember something rather interesting. I spotted an old advertisement discussing the incoming R62's with the bullet to a 4.
Anyone remember the Family Matters when Carl and Steve got stuck on the subway on Christmas?
How many "stuck on the subway" sitcoms do we need?
Yeah, all the sitcoms seem to be "stuck on the subway" episodes. Archie Bunker and his family got "stuck on the subway" too!
And if it's not "stuck" on the subway, it's "lost" on the subway - like I Love Lucy and Mad About You.
I don't have a picture of the interior of the GE R32s, but when these 10 cars were overhauled, they kept much of the original R32 appearance such as most of the roof, the front ends, the market lights (although covered, but still visable), standee poles (12 of them) as well as the door frames.
Here's a picture of the R32 before GOH. You will see what I am talking about regarding the door frame. That's the same design the GE R32s have.
There is no method as far as what car had the painted door frames and what car does not. However, what I can tell you is that none of the 3400s, or 3700 have the painted door frames. Also the bulk of the painted door framed R32s are 3800s and 3900s.
The basic idea of the report is to make a case for long term planning when it comes to rolling stock purchases. They say that few systems actually think in terms of life cycle costs, instead choosing to emphasize a reduction to short term costs, and as such they're often unwilling to change their operational practices. With this emphasis on reducing costs now rather than in the long term, often railroads even foregoe consulting with engineers to learn potential costs over the long term.
The report happens to use MNRR and ConnDot's New Haven Line as it's case study. It studies the increasing size of the fleet, the potential cost of the new vhicles over their life cycle, and the differences in performance and cost between 13 different combinations. They make the point that the ridership of the New Haven's ridership will rise over the next 30 years, requiring 523 EMUs by 2034 if they stick with a 100% EMU fleet. These combinations range from sticking with the status quo, a 100% EMU fleet, to going to a 85% Bilevel Pull Pull (that being two locos, one at either end, like LIRR's DMs, for gaps at GCT)/15% EMU fleet. In between are all combinations from Push Pull and Pull Pull, Single Level vs Bilevel, and three variants on EMU usage. Those three variants are High EMU, Low EMU and Minimal EMU, the best way I've come to think of them is that High EMU is like SEPTA, only 7-8 Push Pulls and the remainder EMU, Low EMU is like NJT is currently aiming for, roughly 75% Push Pull with 25% EMU. I literally cannot think of an equivilant to Minimal EMU, but in their plans it includes only 33 EMU cars for the entire NH line, perhaps enough for locals inbound from Stamford.
The report makes clear that their solution is to achieve both performance acceptible to the current EMU run times, while reducing costs relative to the EMU fleet. They go into great detail about how the 13 combinations perform, and then how much they cost. Obviously the EMUs are the fastest, but they also cost more, the single engine bilevel push-pulls would cost less but have slightly poorer performance, the difficulty was to choose a happy medium between cost and performance. In the end they picked a Bilevel Pull-Pull Electric Loco consist with a 75% P-P/25% EMU split as the most cost effective way to provide the needed increase in seats over the EMU fleet through 2034. Over the 30-40 years the trains would be in service it was estimated that the railroads would save 128 million dollars over running 100% EMUs. I disagree with their assement that they need two locos per train, especially if the overhead 3rd rail at GCT were rehabilitated. I do not know if the MTA and ConnDot are particularly paying attention to this report, although I did note rumors that the M8 orders might be cut back to 50 or fewer units.
Definitely seems like something the MTA should consider.
D'oh
But *what* is an unit?
Is it a car. i.e. 50 cars...
A pair of cars. i.e. 100 cars?
A triplet of cars such as was proposed: 3rd rail motor car, catenary trailer car, 3rd Rail motor car. (ie 150 cars)
50 trainsets (ie 500 or more cars???)
Oh well, I guess planers with degrees gotta have fantasys too.
Elias
Is that your photo? Whenever I see a realy great, artistic photo, I grab it and put it in my Screen Saver file. By the time I started making Lions, I had long since forgotten who I grabbed them from.
I have also used some photos on CD audio disks that I have made. But since I do not own the copyrights for the photos or the music, that just stays here in the house with me.
I have also swiped some sound clips for my audio CDs. A nice announcement from the Pelham train, and then segway into the music. I also got than nice cut of a train running from one station to the next that segways into my outro music.
Thanks for the really great photos, (and I hope you do not mind my using it, I only get into the city one day a year to take my own photos!
Elias
Push-Pulls are ideal for the super high density lines where one encounters severe capacity problems. The marginal cost of adding extra trailer cars is far lower than extra MU cars. You also have greater equipment availability due to the fact that trailers have fewer shit that can break down. Problems with acceleration can be addressed by using the push-pulls on limited stop extress trains that start out in the lo-density areas while keeping the MU's in close to the city.
MU's make great sense if you typically run 1-4 cars (like SEPTA), lack strict regulatory requirements (like transit systems) and have a line configuration where MU problems can be quickly ironed out without disrupting through operations (like PATCO).
On high speed lines with limited stops and growing ridership you can't beat a push-pull for cost and flexibility. Where the stops are close together and/or ridership light you'll want to break out the MU trains.
The report is correct when it says that most agencies are change their operational practices and the result is that we see MU use in inappropiate places (MNRR/LIRR) and Push-pull use in inappropiate places (NJT M&E div/NYLB service). Oddly enough I think that SEPTA is just about the most rational agenvy when it comes to push-pull vs. MU. They use their MU's on the lines where most trains run 2 cars and then push-pulls on the few lines that have high peak period ridership, but only when needed to serve that peak ridership and then for limited stop express runs.
With increased ridership, most New Haven line trains are 7 to 10 cars long, perfect push-pull size.
The two-locomotive "pull-pull" would be a disadvantage, because it would lenghthen the walk at GCT ... the gaps can be handled.
Jersey Mike drew my attention to this comment. While I agree that it is true that most studies are worthless, some are not, and in some cases agencies should heed the findings of such national studies to improve their own operations.
In the case of MNCW and ConnDOT, no study was ever carried out on the cost-benefit of consists versus MUs. On the understanding that those studies are never perfect, and sometimes fail to account for some costs (e.g. re-training of carhouse personnel who have thus far only worked on MU's), it should still be done, so that the agency could at least understand their reasons for choosing MU over push-pull consists.
Dutchrailnut you have just demonstrated that you do not appreciate the breadth of engineering issues surrounding rolling stock procurement. I take my hat off to you on rulebook and operations matters, but you should understand that procurement is not an easy thing and that when writing specs, you have to not only consult those who are working with the current equipment but also vendors and technologists who understand what you could do with other types of equipment. Minimizing costs is not necessarily the goal, there are often multiple, conflicting goals that have to be flushed out.
I know a guy in the T's rail procurement dept., perhaps if you are ever up in Boston I will introduce him to you and we can talk through some of these issues.
AEM7
No, that's why serious studies require fieldwork -- tests at TTCI, dialogue with the MNCW people, and dialogues with the vendors.
your 4 consultants know everything there is about push-pulls and their cost ??
Not sure where you're getting the '4 consultants' idea from. I'm not a consultant in the field of rolling stock procurement and I am not four persons. The art of transportation modelling is to determine the cost of push-pulls using available data, including data garnered from MNCW, other agencies, and simulations carried out using engineering models. MNCW is only part of the picture. MNCW maintenance superintendents may have cost data about the equipment they currently run, but they don't have data for the equipment they currently don't run. These data would need to be collected from other sources, or calculated using engineering models.
MNCW/ConnDOT took this issue serious in hand years ago when NJT started to go all Push-Pull, and desided the loss in ontime performance was not worth the changes they would need to make to save a few bucks.
If you know that they did, there is probably a report floating around somewhere in MNCW's head offices. Make it public so the rest of us can see it. Even just give me a title, author and date. I'm pretty certain that such a report doesn't exist.
I'm not saying you are wrong. In fact I may even agree with you, since I know it is true that the push-pull advantage is rarely as amazing as it is made out to be -- there is a lot of hidden costs, especially with implementing it on top of an operation which is currently all-MU. But I want to see how you're arrived at your conclusions.
why no Push-Pull??
A] Yards are not constructed for Push-pull and the way the toilets and cars need to be serviced or cab cars needing to be swapped.
This is a cost. When you do life-cycle costing, you can depreciate the capital cost required on the depot side over the life cycle of the vehicle.
B] During Slippery season it was not worth it to have only one powersource.
You calculate this as a risk -- risk of train stalling, disruption to service, and how much the service incurs in loss time or loss revenue.
C] Redundancy with EMU's in propulsion/etc etc.
Again, you use MDBF's to calculate the risk of failure. The MU consists have a lot better MDBF's than the single-source types, but low MDBF's may not be such a problem when you use the consist four times a day, twice in the AM rush and twice in the PM peak.
D] Flexibility in changing consist
Flexibility costs money. You need to calculate how much public benefits can be gained by having the additional flexibility.
E] Noise level if two locomotives were used in GCT.
This is a qualitative issue, probably mitigated by simply having the locomotives on the northern end of the consist
F]Cost.
to eleborate on last one a 10 car EMU set will run you around 2.4 million per car for 24 million
A two locomotive Dual mode 10 car push-pull would cost you 2 x 4.9 plus 10 x 1.9 million for total of 28.8 million.
the maintenace of even the M8's would be lower anyway since the trailer in middle is not powered and not considered a locomotive.
So you, Mr. Locomotive Engineer, knows everything about locomotive, MU, and carhouse maintenance costs? Your numbers are approximately correct, but you don't have any numbers for maintenance costs at all -- if you do, share them. "Would be lower anyway"? Would it? How much lower? M8's are basically a hybrid MU/push-pull concept, since they are using trailer cars in between MU cars. So you've basically just told us that all-MU isn't necessarily the right solution.
As far as the T guy, before you introduce him let him finish making enough coaches available for service in Boston Area before he considers any advice to MNCW.
I won't even begin to go into the Kawasakis. They are actually pretty good cars, but, as usual, there are issues, some of which are related to maintenance funding. Don't forget, MBCR is privately operated now.
AEM7
Not the plan. As I understand it, the basic consist will be M7-M8-M7. The M7's will have the 600v power equipment and propulsion. The M8 will be, basically, a transformer car without propulsion, and used to provide power to the M7s on the overhead system.
One more thought -- the MU concept was adopted in the late 60s by MNRR and LIRR. I believe at that time that a standard locomotive required a two or three person crew! The labor cost made the difference if that were the case.
Two engines on north end ?? how novel an Idea, but now you need a cabcar and two engines ?/ 3 out of 12 considered locomotives, here goes the cost advantage.
As far as those Kawasaki's from what I see the other coaches don't fare to much better on MBTA. and MBTA made their own bed when they split from Amtrak and decided to go with outside operators insteadof starting their own Railroad operating outfit.
Then MNCW really are boneheads. They should have asked you to work on the vehicle spec team when they were speccing out the M7's and M8's. I don't believe for a minute that you are 100% happy with the specs. There is another guy I know at the T who had a similar experience; he went back to working the roads because of higher pay, having turned down a management position. This is a chronic problem, with most guys who know something about mechanical and electric systems working in direct labor because the management/analysis pay is not good enough.
AEM7
haha. I did too (fell off a boat). Holland America Cruises is cool. I don't generally tell this story, but I am actually 1/16th Dutch -- my parents are from Asia, and that country used to be a Dutch colony, and five generations back we had a Dutch woman in our family. So anything Nederlandse must be cool.
AEM7
I haven't read the report, so I am not about to pre-judge it here. However I would be interested in seeing the fine print -- precisely who funded this study and why. Did Mr. Nelson go out and talk to the MNCW guys, or was this a classroom exercise? Mr. Nelson has a great professional reputation and is well experienced in rolling stock speccing, but judging by what you excerpted from the report, it sounds like a desktop exercise where a detailed cost/benefit has not been done. Was things like the cost of flexibility and the cost of providing additional maintenance location and staff training due to the use of MU's taken into account? What about the "cost" of the loss of flexibility because push-pull consists cannot be broken up into smaller MU's in case of demand changes or in-service failures? Life cycle costs mean different things to different people.
I'll look at JTRF when we get our copy. Or you could take a look at the study and critique it for me, based on the questions I raised here.
AEM7
Now, look at revenue lost from slower, less reliable service. Well, a monthly on the New Haven line is about 200 dollars (probbably more!). Thus, each rider is 'worth' about 2400 dollars a year. Thus, the cost difference can be made up by simply attracting about 1700 extra monthly pass riders a year with EMUs. Could adding 15 minutes to a schedule drive away ridership? Yes - and especially at the far end stations where the riders are 'worth' more, too.
And, it's no secret push pull is a LOT slower in real life - NJT has been stretyching schedules out more and more ever since they started their conversion. That cuts into ridership.
Plus, the NH line inherently will amplify the differences between MU and push/pull, because it has many curves and grades and speed restrictions.
Oh yeah, an MU will always have greater adhesion than a push/pull, which helps in bad weather. And is a heck of a lot more reliable, less gap prone, and performs better.
We're talking a 4 million dollar a year difference in the two here, at best. And 30-40 years to 'save' 128 million. Now, look at the costs of dual fleet - training everyone for two fleets, scheduling, modifying maintenance facilities, lost ridership, delays via breakdowns, etc etc etc. I bet that adds up to close to 128 million. So, we're talking about saving a million or so year, but providing a shitty service.
What's the old expression - it doesn't cost more to do it first class? That applies in a lot of places. 1/2 assed transit systems don't attract riders, they attract critics, which atytracts budget cuts.
A mix of equipment would make sense. Strangely, MN is operating conventional sets on local service, and MU on the express. Using the conventional units on runs like GCT - Stamford - Fairfield and then local to New Haven would be optimum.
Today, it's a switch, a transformer, and a rectifier. The AC propulsion system doesn't care what's feeding the DC link, just that it's being suitably fed.
It's not like the old GE system where you had two sepperate propulsion systems mushed together.
The M-8's will probbably be no less reliable than the M-7's, which are already 10X better than the LIRR's M-1/3 cars.
Even the rebuilt M-2's have been doing well.
I'm guessing once the teething problems are out of the M-7's, they should be able to regulerly do 200,000 - 300,000 miles between breakdowns - or better. And remember, by basing the M-8's off the M-7's, MN will have a New haven fleet that's closer to the rest of the MU fleet in design, which will further lower costs and increase reliability. And, they'll have had a few year's experience with the 7's, when the 8's arrive.
There are good reasons for both MU and conventional trains ... as is shown by the opinions here. All things being equal, the MU should be better, but the history of the NH, from the washboards forward, shows the opposite!
?????
What are you referring to? The overwhelming majority of New Haven Line runs, whether a New Rochelle local or a New Haven express, are the same M2 equipment. The few diesel trains are mostly on the unelectrified Waterbury and Danbury lines, though there are probably a handful that run in electric territory.
other one makes New Rochelle,Larchmont, Mamaroneck, Harrison, then deadheads to S Norwalk for 1874 comes back as 1993 and to Stamford for Morning service, New Roch, Pelham, Mount Vernon Express
third one is making stops on a New Haven Express due to lack of EMU's Available
Don't see people running away from Metra, Tri-Rail, Metrolink, TRE, GO Transit, MARC, or any other diesel push-pull commuter system.
NJT has been stretyching schedules out more and more ever since they started their conversion. That cuts into ridership
You're not thinking straight. NJT has never had so high of ridership during its existence. Midtown Directs still draw 'em. NEC has experienced no drop in ridership either, but rather an increase. How about some facts first?
What's the old expression - it doesn't cost more to do it first class? That applies in a lot of places. 1/2 assed transit systems don't attract riders, they attract critics, which attracts budget cuts
Here you go acting like every transit agency has the resources of the MTA. Yes it does cost more to do everything EMU, especially when you don't have a legacy electric RR to do it with. And even with the MTA, how come they haven't electrified all of the LIRR or Metro-North?? Answer that one truthfully this time.
Now they will have some REALLY dirty cars!
The 68A's have been grimy for ages. :)
But we were AM. Perhaps the wash doesn't operate in the PM. Perhaps it was official "road operations" training, and not the extra road practice they gave in the normal AM class hors, and they didn't want to do the wash then. Who knows.
Too bad when it went to 205th St, they didn't take it OOS and run it through the car wash at Concourse.
Why not simply cycle Coney Islands cars up to Concourse so that they can be properly cleaned?
Robert
*CHOKE*
4 weeks?
This issue was raised at the last PM UMD meeting and the UMD Chair said that unlike the current officers he was not friends with K O'C and that the pick section said no. Contractually the pick must go into effect about a month after the picking ends. The pick in the B was originally supposed to end in August with the pick taking effect late October and possibly early December. The pick delayed the picking for 2 weeks and I will have more information at the next UMD meeting manana.
The last issue is the work program. Not just the passenger control jobs lost or the L jobs going temp. The last issue is the notes on the L TO work program that say you must stay one year on the L due to the tme and expense of CCBTC training or some such nonsense. ontractually we get 2 picks a year and that would be a violation. Plus what about RDO relief spots that would make it weird if you only had one day on the L and got frozen because of that. To me it sounds like the start of another push towards pre packaged picks.
Unfortunately, the precedent is already there for the RTO guys, it wasn't "nipped in the bud"
The union is trying to fight it, but so far it's been an uphill battle.
Lees brought a smile to many a youth face for his handiwork -- may he Rest In Peace.
Sigh....:-(
My condolences to the bereaved and to the unfortunate victim.
In any event, part of the reason I posted this is that it is semi-related to the topic of Daris McCullom and his Asperger's Syndrome. I recall that in an old post on the subject, the ability to constantly recite dialogue from Abbott & Costello was one of the symptoms of Asperger's. I didn't get around to checking the archives on this, but I do seem to recall something to that affect.
*with appologies to Rodney Dangerfield
Does anyone know if this will be a maglev? That was what the agent told me Sunday.
it is called " Skylink"
Mark
What happened to the other tram that served the non-AA gates/terminals? Is it still operating?
CG
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The employee shuttle never carried anyone nor did a freight version that shuttled baggages between carriers.
The designer was a local firm with no transit experience - LTV.
Phil Hom
Stafford VA
http://www.odu.edu/af/maglev/
Bombardier call it " Innovia"
Peace,
ANDEE
To expand on that, and split hairs a bit, it's called a pull-apart if it happens at a link bar; it's called an undesired uncoupling if it occurs where there is a traditional coupler.
First is called an undesired uncoupling - where the automatic couplers open and cause the train to split into two sections. This may be caused by many factors including human error. Usually, with this type of incident there is no damage and the train can most times be put back together and brought back to the maintenance facility for investigation.
Second is called a pull-apart. This is where cars seperate at a permanent or semi-permanent coupler. This is always due to mechanical or hardware failure and will result in broken air lines and torn trainline cables. The cars cannot be re-added and must be moved in pieces back to a maintenance facility or an overhaul shop for investigation and repair.
In both cases, both halves of the train should go into emergency.
EAST HAVEN (AP) -- A construction worker was killed early Wednesday when his crane was hit by a train that was testing the tracks, Amtrak said.
The accident occurred about 3:45 a.m. on the tracks about three miles east of Union Station in New Haven, according to Vernae Grahm, a spokeswoman for Amtrak.
Grahm said the train was a Connecticut Department of Transportation test train with an Amtrak conductor and engineer on board.
The train struck a crane that was involved in a repair project on the nearby Interstate 95 overpass. Grahm said the accident had halted at least two Amtrak trains running north and south through New Haven.
Investigators remained at the scene Wednesday morning. Officials had not released the name of the victim Wednesday morning.
(Copyright 2004 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved)
http://www.wtnh.com/global/story.asp?s=1944887&ClientType=Printable
The man-lift
(East Haven-WTNH/AP, June 16, 2004 Updated 2:20 PM ) _ A day of work turns deadly for one man on Connecticut's train tracks. That accident happened early this morning right under a highway overpass near exits 51 and 52 on I-95 in East Haven.
Officials have released the name of the man killed in this morning’s train accident. He is 48-year-old Gregory Roberts from Woodbridge.
I spoke with some neighbors who live in this area and they tell me they are certainly used to hearing noise -- construction, traffic, trains -- but after hearing this morning’s train screeching on the tracks, they tell me they knew something very bad had happened.
Jon Bokowski describes the accident, "I heard a honking train then I heard a big crash like something fell down, And a minute later I hear lots of screams and shouting and yelling."
What East Haven’s Jon Bokowski heard was the sound of a southbound train tearing through this construction site at about 4:00 AM on Wednesday.
Chris Gallucci from D.O.T. says, "This was apparently an unscheduled run. We're investigating right now why the train was here at that point in time."
Transportation officials say the train was, in fact, authorized to run, but that it’s likely that crews working on the underside of the I-95 overpass in East Haven were not informed that the train was headed their way.
Officials say one worker was standing on the platform of this machine when the state-run train came barreling through.
Asst. Chief Paul Cahill of the East Haven Fire Dept. says, "The construction employee was evidently operation off a man-lift, an item that they'd raise an employee to work on an elevated position and the train actually struck the man-lift itself with the employee in it."
The victim was thrown to his death, officials say. The machinery he was operating from was left wrapped around a concrete support. Construction came to a halt on the ongoing I-95 project, and train service for both Shoreline East and Amtrak completely stopped.
Chris Gallucci says, "Our paramount concern right now is naturally, for the victims, and to find out exactly what happened."
Officials are still investigating
Both tracks for Shoreline East and Amtrak have reopened. One of the tracks remained closed until about 11:30 AM to allow crews to clean up any leftover debris that was on the tracks.
Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs are subeay cars. They are steel IRT subway cars, three single leaf doors per side, conductor's position between the cars, white enamled straps, but round rather than triangularly shaped.
Think of them as older cousins to the Arnines.
Hi-Vs, the older of the two, had the full 600v dc current serving the switch gangs in the M/Ms controler. (In *those* days they were Motormen, not Train Operators.)
Later trains, the Lo-Vs had controled relays, which controled the 600v switches under the cars. I presume that the controler was 32v dc, since that was the other voltage available on the car, was it not? Suppled by batteries, or maybe by the battery charging circuit. Big Ed Davis could tell us, but it is not likely that he will see this post.
(sigh)
Elias
The "LoV's" were "MODERN CARS" of the 20's wherein BATTERIES were placed undercar for emergency lighting and other purposes and some IRT genius said, "ya know? We wouldn't have so many motormen electrocuted if we used the BATTERY voltage instead of the 600 volts in that box." One of the realities of the old subway cars is that if it was a bit moist in the atmosphere and you touched metal, you'd get knocked on your ASP ... and so, a redesign of the control stand to use the 36 volt battery/emergency lights voltage became the norm. Cut down GREATLY on electrocutions in the cab, flashovers, arcovers and FIRES.
By the time the IND came into existence, LO-VOLTAGE control of the relays was the norm and all R-contract and other cities' subway cars were designed around LoV control. On the IRT however, because of the original HiV legacy, those cars were different by the day's standards and MUCh safer to operate. Hope this does it ... moo. :)
Today's computerized toasters on wheels make it OH so easy ... "back in the day" a MOTORMAN earned their wings. And the MOTORWOMEN were to similarly be FEARED and RESPECTED. (grin) Seriously though, despite all the touchy-feely of today's modern toasters on wheels, there's STILL a badarsed KNIFE-SWITCH undercar and shoe slippers and SOMETIMES you gotta use them. If one is faint of heart and is afraid of a piddly 600 volts, DON'T go out for "motors" ... for those of us who have worked 465kV power lines, 600 volts is a mere tingle, 36 volts is a (safe) joke, and never the trains shall meet. =)
But MOTORPEOPLE are a SKILLED craft - learn how NOT to die - such is the nature of "structure walk" and "track safety" ... and in reality, as long as you don't get stupid, it's all perfectly safe. As LONG as you literally "LIVE by the rules."
Westinghouse invented the idea of using battery voltage for the
MU trainlines in 1901. It took GE another decade to offer a
low-voltage product (the "PC" group switch). However, Westinghouse
also marketed high-voltage MU ("HL" and "AL" systems) into
the 1940s, at least, and GE continued to offer high-voltage Type M
as well as high-voltage versions of PC. So, there is little evidence
that hi-v control was considered unsafe.
The primary reason for switching over to lo-v control for subway
trains was third rail gaps. Hi-V cars required an awkward system
of high-voltage jumpers (the so-called "bus & balance" wires)
so that when the head car hit a third rail gap, this didn't drop
out the entire train! A side-effect of this was that a train
could bridge a third rail gap with obvious safety implications,
thus the use of IRT "SB" Section Break signals.
Low-voltage control works from a battery (in this case 32 VDC nominal,
although other voltages were used, such as 14 VDC on the BU cars)
and thus is unaffected by third rail gaps. The battery is generally
charged through the compressor circuit.
And in addition to your very accurate explanations, I think I recall also that there was a problem with the HiV controls having to do with gapping and having to drop back to coast or very bad things would happen with the motor groups but I don't remember after all these years WHAT the specific problem was, but LoV controls solved that as well.
With regard to knife switches, the Lo-Vs retained the exact same
switch board cabinet, which is opposite the motorman (not behind
like on the R-types). The knife switches weren't totally
unprotected, of course, they had insulated wooden handles :)
I suppose I *must* be thinking of the MUDC's then - what I'd been told was that if you DIDN'T kick to coast as you took it across a gap (and your trainline dropped out) when you DID pick up power again, if it wasn't in coast/off position, *BANG!* You'd blow fuses or have really bad things happen to the motors. And what I remember being told by old timers back in MY day, whatever knife switch it was that'd get ya was up OVERHEAD in the operating position behind a door and that controlled the lights. I also got told that on juicy days, you'd get zitzed by the electrical stuff as well and had to be careful and wear your gloves or you'd be thrown across the cab. All second hand of course, but that's what I was told by the folks that actually ran them once upon a time ...
They never closed at a constant speed like the R-1's to R-9's
Then there were Triplexes 6043 and 6978 that collided near Stillwell Ave. in 1955. Ouch! Boom!!
Of course, I got a big kick out of turning those levers aka faucet handles myself.
But yeah, Unca Selkirk quit the city because it wasn't *FUN CITY* anymore - if I can't dance at your revolution, then the revolution is OVER. *MY* living is all about *FUN* ... if you can't dance, then you're NO fun and people who have a stick up their asp, well ... enjoy the ride, watch the closing doors, BING phucking BONG. You and *I* had FUN. Moo. :)
Unca Selkirk's continuing advice to the people ... TERRORISTS, "be governed accordingly" ...
"NEVER take life TOO seriously, and BEWARE of those who do, moo." =O
Yeah, if I wasn't so stoned from lack of sleep, I woulda been a LOT more chilled while the train was in motion, but my PRIME directive was "do it right." That was about all the meatrom could handle, and "stoned from lack of sleep" was NOT an excuse. :)
We gotta do it sometime again when I've had more than four hours sleep. Heh. I'd be like Unca Dougie, doing a Groucho whilst dumping the train. :)
Similar set-up on the MBTA 0500-series Blue Line cars. Some years ago at Seashore I found out that the insulated wooden handles are not perfect insulators, especially when wet -- even while wearing (wet) gloves. ZORCH!
We had another incident at Seashore some years ago. In the pouring rain, one of our motormen was putting away The City of Manchester, which is operated from an open-end platform. The rain was so heavy, that a river of water flowed from the roof to him to the controller handle. Somehow, an extra "circuit" was completed. Talk about taking power!
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
What are you so afraid of?
Just a guess.
-Julian
Douce Man is correct in saying they had a choice over having a 4 track line or a 3 track line, the latter being able to be completed sooner. I think it was due to cost and money available but am not sure.
Just a guess.
Given the width of grand Concourse, they could have put in a eight track line if they wanted to.
Indeed, my Fifth Avenue Subway runs up a new two track line under the concourse. And before you get on be about not having an express track, the first stop is Bedford Park Blvd!
Elias
Anyway, a question that came to my mind is: what's the shortest distance between 2 subway stations? (And possibly, if you have the info, the distance between them)
Some places that came to mind were between Cortleyou and Beverly Rd. Stations on the Q (Brighton) and between 145th and 148th on the 3 (Lenox).
Any help I could get would be great!
Thanks!
Mark
Strangely, City Hall seems closer to Walnut-Locust than to Race-Vine. The alignment has less curvature going southbound than northbound, but even once again directly beneath Broad Street, there's a longer straight run to Race-Vine, unlike Walnut-Locust, which is almost immediately after the realignment southbound.
If you wanna REALLY talk short distance, the R1 takes the cake... the Airport Terminal stops are VERY close; in fact Terminals A and B share the same platform, yet aren't a shared terminal stop like C and D (Though, I beliee at one time, the trains stopped in the center of the A&B Platform, serving both terminals insead of stopping a either end. The old 1984 Rail System Maps (these had Regional Rail and all other rail lines; no RRD exclusive map exists) showed the Airport stops for A/B, C/, and E).
However, previously it was Dean to Franklin on the Shuttle.
Nobody's done a proper job of measuring Park Pl to Chambers on the 2/3.
David
Though it seems longer given the sharp curve along the way.
-Chris
What about Canarsie-E. 105th on the L?
It's not. It's at 149th and ACPJr. (7th)
Search the ARCHIVES here. There have been MANY discussions on this topic with all the info you are looking for...
P.S. BRING M7 TO NEW HAVEN LINE!!!!
Peace..:&:..Love
J e n
-Chris
Anyone want to do a translation on what she said?
Plainly put - lose the street talk.
If you want to be taken seriously you have to use a better way to express your thoughts. Try proper English - you might like it.
aem7 - you don't like me (and the feeling is mutual). Don't speak for the others.
Is it too much to ask that people communicate in a way that others can understand?
No sweat. It ain't hard, bro.
OmGzzZ yo the shortest stations ever are on the Brooklyn Bridge Bound 6 Train going through Upper to Lower BxX!
(self-realization of wonder!) Attend me. The shortest distance between stations that I've been able to discern are those along the portion of # 6 train traversing the Bronx from the lower section to the outlying districts.
I mean sometimes its like Doors Closing to Welcome to Such and Such Station!! LoLzzZz
Indeed, my observations have shown that the inter-station transit duration within these Bronx districts seems so diminutive that after the train doors have barely closed at one station, it is a matter of mere moments until the standard entry greeting is announced for the proceeding station stop. Why, this datum has caused me to express mirth in a private yet vocal manner.
I agree with Heinlein...semantics do matter.
Allan-- ( & all da haterz)--- You dont kno me..so don't put labels on me like im some stupid, street-talking, narrow-minded loser.
Peace..:&:..Love
J e n
I'm still I'm Still Jennyfromtheblock
You are street talking. >_> And I know I aint Allan.
And maybe were so white because some of us (coughMEcough) are white.
Although ,he could've said it in a way whereas it wouldn't have been considered a diss or put down.
By the way,it has nothing to do with color,thank you. So lets not start on that topic again.
Okay?
Vengeance is out!
Serioulsy - ntrain, thank you.
At least know I know what the meshuganah was talking about.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
PLEASE, don't presume to speak for me.
Peace,
ANDEE
On a related note, if two stations in NY are close enough that they almost touch, why were they not connected as in Chicago?
Matt
Matt
I think septas broad street or proberly it was Patco, anyways, one of those 2 has a area but 2 seperate stations as I recall last time.
Kinda weird to have stations joined into 1.
Matt
Kinda weird and all, any others like this?
Not sure of any more in any other cities (other than Philadelphia that you mentioned), but they have to exist.
Matt
Or does that not count because the same train doesn't stop at both?
Or, does that not count because 18th St. is closed? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
-Chris
Arthur Thomas
Metro-North will operate a rare mileage fantrip over the Beacon Line,
including a stopover at the Danbury Railway Museum on Sunday, September
12. You will also have the oportunity to ride (for first class fare) in
one of the ex Phoebie-Snow observation cars now used by the railroad
president.
=============================
Sept. 12, SUN: MTA Metro-North’s “Beacon Line Railfan Trip,” departing
Grand Central Terminal (GCT) at 8:45 AM and traveling along the former New
York Central’s scenic Hudson Line to Beacon, NY. From Beacon, the trip
will run east to Danbury, CT, via the little used former New Haven RR
Maybrook Line. The line passes through Beacon, Fishkill, Hopewell
Junction and along Whaley Lake in Dutchess County. The trip will include
a stop at the Danbury Railway Museum. On its return to Grand Central, the
train will travel south on the Danbury Branch, then west on the New Haven
mainline to GCT, arriving at 6:30 PM. The 200 mile trip will include
photo stops and runbys. Fare includes a commemorative ticket, an official
souvenir timetable and a box lunch. Tickets by reservation only.
Fare: adults $75, child (11 and under) $55. Limited First Class seating
is available in two of the former Erie Lackawanna “Phoebe Snow”
observation cars for $175. For tickets and information:
Metro-North Group Travel, 420 Lexington Ave., 9th Fl., New York, NY 10017.
Telephone: 212-499-4398, or e-mail: Group Sales@mnr.org
Your pal,
Fred
chartered FL9's at Danbury
runby on Maybrook Branch
commuter train leaving Stamford in PM rush hour
Matt
What's happening to Diamond's collection?
There was word of a rival group. What are they up to? Do they have a web site for info?
- Isaac
The "rival" group, The Brooklyn City Streetcar Company, has a proposal in for real live streetcar line(s) to be built as part of the Brooklyn Bridge Park waterfront redevelopment stretching from Atlantic Ave. to DUMBO, the western part of the Navy Yard and into downtown. The proposal has garnered alot of support from the local community groups and politicians with an interest in what happens down there. The BCSC proposal was even included in the architect's plans for the redevelopment.
To get something like this built properly will need a bit more political action and financial effort. It's going to be alot of work.
The website is coming. Info can be obtained by emailing bcsc718@msn.com
All these streets had a carline on it. York St. used to have an el on it!
Jay St. Conn RR primarily ran east west from their car float yard where the Empire Stores Park is now at Dock St.
Where is Concord Village?
:>) ~ Sparky
*runs and hides*
I'm very sure that a Brooklyn PCC [#1001] will see passengers riding,
while H&M #503 may not. May not be in Brooklyn, but with the current
leaders of the "Premier PCC" rebuilding at BERA it will come to life.
>>GG<< By the way I'm a realist more so then an optimist.
8>) ~ Sparky
Peace ..:&:.. Love
J e n
Phil Hom
Stafford VA
Seriously, I know that all things will come to an end, but commuter rail will not be the same around here.
I've just got the above come up on my screen when I wasn't taking care ! THANK YOU, whoever was resposible, for letting me off the hook !
Possibly the LIRR at um... Maybe Fresh Pond just as a guess?
I got no idea if he meant the queens statement seperatly or what, so I figure I'd just say what I said.
Jimmy
Those are geese getting off the train, so it is an in service train and not a construction train. (It might be a construction site, but I think not.)
The presence of a steamy locomotive and low level platforms suggest to me the Culver Terminal or something on the Culver Line.
While the *location* may still exist, the low level platforms are long gone., but the Culver is the only place that I can think of where steam and electric co-existed. And does that electric have a trolley pole on it. It all says Culver to me.
Elias
It's the Brooklyn Bridge in cable days.
Note the center doors in the cars, and the gripman at the wheel, plus the steam engine (used to push the cable cars/train out of the station to the pick up point.
But that does not have train service today, so....
But it is *not* brooklyn bridge, because you said that this place still has train service today.
The geese are still getting off at track level, rather than using the center door which is at platform level, and I think that Brooklyn Bridge was always high level platforms.
So we are looking at the back of the train, and the tran came *from* Brooklyn Bridge.
Note the rope going to the top of the car, it does look like the rope that attaches to a trolley pole. AFIK, only the Culver Line used that contrivence, that when it was running on the ground level.
Culver Lion trains *did* go all the way to CI, but you said that that is not this. So somewhere served by today's elevated (F) train, clearly prior to the grade crossing elimination.
So I'll guess KINGS HIGHWAY.
Elias
My real observation is the line was below another line, and the current line in question is open cut.
The concrete on the right side is clearly part of the SBRW, as it ran alongside the Brighton line until it's demise in 1924.
Hmmmm, am I getting warm now?
Back to square one:
You have a girder in the middle, possible elevated line over the exisiting ROW (where the people are standing on the island platform.). You have the platform NOT aligned with the train so you have to step up to board the train. You have another girder that looks like in was not in place. And I found another picture that fits it to a T with the picture of another picture I stumbled across this time because it's the old LIRR East New York station before the Atlantic Ave viaduct was built. The girders match on both pictures. The station would be the way it looked like when the Canarsie line was reconfigured in 1916 during the Dual Contracts era.
Also in support of Newkirk are several other issues: the station house itself was just a skeleton as of this date, and there were a lot of track shifts and temporary platforms and staircases. There is no evidence of side platforms (as existed at the time at both Beverley and Cortelyou). On the leftmost track is a work train, the rightmost track has an apparent rapid transit loco, but that would also have been a work train, as steam was completely discontinued on the BRT for passenger service by then. The train in the station is evidently turning for a return trip, as evidenced by the trainman on the platform. Newkirk Avenue (South Midwood) was still a short-turn destination until the grade crossing work was completed.
The only puzzle is the exact location of this temporary station, with the (probable) southbound express track covered by the temporary platform. It is not between Newkirk and Foster because there is the cut seems only wide enough for the four tracks and there is no evidence of platform steelwork or the distinctive tunnel windows. Between Ditmas and Newkirk is out, because it had no available platform at that time. So my best guess is that it is looking south at Foster with the "geese" existing to Foster by temporary stairs, not in the picture.
>_>
I forgot about the Kings County Elevated cars with the center doors. I've seen pictures of them in Greller-Watson's The Brooklyn Elevated. That threw me off.
The Brooklyn Bridge cable had similar cars, but larger. The were not usable off the bridge line, and few were sold for further use when cable service was eliminated.
Cable service began when the Bridge was opened (1883), the Elevated Companies (Brooklyn Union and Kings County Elevated)leased trackage rights in 1997 and a connection was made at Tillery Street. This began electric service on the Bridge. The Bridge cars were electic equipped at this time, eliminating the steam engines (The grip wheel was on the right side of the platform so the controller was on the left.) but the Trustees continued cable operation until 1908.
-Broadway Buffer
At least you're thinking about South Ferry.
I don't know why they didn't connect to the Rutgers tunnel when they re-built the DeKalb Ave. (Gold St) interlocking, but at this point it would seem needlessly expensive to build such a connection with no kind of regular service to go through it. I see rebuilding the Rogers, 96/Bway, Myrtle/Bway, and 142/Lenox junctions with higher importance.
Basically, someone should just buy the line and start their own damn service. If the NIMBYs didn't want to deal with a train, why'd they move next to the tracks? Try to get them to answer that question. They just try to dodge it. Why? Cuz they've got ZERO common sense.
Just buy the line and get some DMUs and start runnin em between Hempstead and NCC while the line is rehabbed to the shopping area and a new loop is built around the hub.
wayne
The clinton Rd station doesn't really need to be restored. Well...the westbound platform is kinda non-existant, but the eastbound platform is in perfect condition, along with the station house(which yeah, it's used by GCFD).
I saw a plan from the county showing a system with a line going up the old ROW to Mineola as well, more or less the same thing I planned out. I remember a few monthes ago I posted a proposal for a 2 line rail system for the hub as such:
Mineola-Stewart Av-Clinton Rd-Quentin Roosevelt BLVD-Mitchell Field-Hofstra-Nassau Collesium-NCC-Quentin Roosevelt BLVD-Clinton Rd-Stewart Av-Mineola
and the other route
Hempstead-CLP-Clinton Rd-Quentin Roosevelt BLVD-Zeckendorf BLVD(Roosevelt Field Mall)-The Source-Merrick Av
I've recently expanded my plans as such:
Nassau Loop line: Glen St-Sea Cliff-Glen Head-Greenvale-Wheatly Hills-Roslyn-Albertson-East Williston-Mineola-Stewart Av-Clinton Rd-Quentin Roosevelt Blvd-Mitchell Field-Hofstra-Nassa Collesium-NCC-Quentin Roosevelt Blvd(forming a loop allowing it to run back to Glen St without switching direction)
The other line from Hempstead up past Roosevelt Field Mall that I mentioned, I extended it to Westbury(like the nassau county plans say), then up the PJ line to Huntington, and then up the old Northport Village spur.
I've got lots more lines for Nassau/Suffolk county, but those 2 are the only ones that were extended routes of what I previously planned.
I think you saw the same plan that I saw. What were some of the ideas that were there?
wayne
Why bother electrifyin? It's more expensive. Just run DMUs. As for where are they gonna go? Well, the LIRR used to run from OB to Valley Stream, and I think Far Rock as well, via the Mineola-CLP-WH ROW, which is still in tact. I say LIRR just restarts that service, and then adds some new intra-island services. I've got a website with my proposal for intra-island rail service, which I'm actually updating(combining 2 routes) right now.
Oh yeah, and the LIRR said the DMs were going to be 'no different from an electric'. They're not even close. They're as slow as the old crap was, and just as annoyingly noisy. I live 1 mile from Glen Head, and even with double insulated windows, I can hear those POS EMDs from Sea Cliff. The freaking LIPA plant that's a 2 minute walk from me is quieter than the DMs are. And they get LOUDER every year, like all diesels do.
My plan for OB?
* Cut it back to Glen Street. There's effectively NO ridersahip beyond there, and won't be for decades, if ever.
* Single track from a 2 track GS terminal to Greenvale. Use the ROW to straighten curves and make it 80mph if possible.
* Two track to Roslyn. This will allow trains to pass on the long, slow trek between Greenvale and Roslyn, and given them two stops to slow things abit more.
* Single track to Mineola. Once again, straighten the ROW and try for 80mph.
* Third platform at Mineola so OB trains can stop and do whatever, without tiring up the main line. This alone is worth a bit of extra ML capacity.
* Make the OB -> main line crossovers between mineola and Merrilon Ave, and 80mph.
* Service every 1/2 hour, one to Penn, one to FBA.
* Rush hour - more trains, and some from FBA, some from Penn, and eventually, a lot from GCT.
As for DMUs? It's not going to happen on LI, they were a flop last 2 times. OB to Valley Stream? Who the fuck wants to go to Valley Stream / far rock from here? I want to go to NYC, not get a tour of LI's ghettos Even if i was still working in Far Rockaway, I wouldn't take such a train unless it could do it in 45 min (i.e., as fast or faster than driving), which with diesel service, you might as well ask for a 45 minute trip to the moon.
Isn't the track from Mineola to Roslyn pretty much dead straight already?
I think you'd need to eliminate intermediate stations along the line if you want to speed it up. Greenvale and Albertson come immediately to mind. What's the point of having 80 mph running speeds if you can't get up that fast in between stations?
CG
You don't need electrification to make a line better. LIRR just can't run a diesel service for shit. They could definately find a way to schedule trains so that there is space for a few more OB trains at NYP. 1 idea, combine trains from PJ and trains from Huntington. Those through trains from PJ are followed closely by trains from Huntington which make the stops that the PJ train doesn't. Combine those 2 trains and right there is room for one more OB train. This thing happens a few times on the PJ line. As for the weekend, LIRR definately has space at NYP to add more OB trains, no questions.
And FBA and GCT service? TRANSFER! It's not that hard. I think the OB going to just NYP and LIC is fine.
Oh, and about the noise. Yeah, they're noisy, but not that noisy. I remember last summer I was staying at Gansett Green Manor in Amagansett, which is probably 250 ft from the Montauk line. Anytime the train passed, I hardly even heard it, and the cabin I was in was the closest to the tracks and not soundproofed. My friends also had no problem sleeping with the trains going by. I also hardly noticed them during the day.
"Cut it back to Glen Street. There's effectively NO ridersahip beyond there, and won't be for decades, if ever. "
I don't know how the hell you can say this. I've ridden the OB line numerous times during no special occasion or anything, and there have always been quite a few people going to OB. I suggest you actually take a ride on the train past Glen St instead of just guessing.
"Single track from a 2 track GS terminal to Greenvale. Use the ROW to straighten curves and make it 80mph if possible. "
That'd just make the line worse. It'd put a time constraint on the line effecting the efficiency of service. 80MPH on the OB? Are you kidding? That line has stations far too close to do 80. 55 I could see, maybe even 60, but no way in hell 80 would work.
"Two track to Roslyn. This will allow trains to pass on the long, slow trek between Greenvale and Roslyn, and given them two stops to slow things abit more. "
Yeah, and what happens when a train has a problem on the single track section? And what two stops? The only station between Greenvale and Roslyn is North Roslyn/Wheatly Hills, which has been abandonned for ages now.
"Single track to Mineola. Once again, straighten the ROW and try for 80mph. "
YEY! Another bottleneck! What Fun!
"Third platform at Mineola so OB trains can stop and do whatever, without tiring up the main line. This alone is worth a bit of extra ML capacity."
The only thing needed for extra ML capacity in the Mineola area is a third track on the south side. During the evenin rush, trains to OB can stop on the current eastbound track and do whatever, while trains going further east on the ML can go around it(and still stop at the same platform) on the south side. So now the evening problem is solved, but what about the morning? Simple, those westbounds come onto the westbound track and yeah, hold up a few trains. Well, those trains from east of Nassau tower can just switch to what is now the eastbound track to pass the OB train. The eastbound trains can switch over to the new 3rd track.
"Service every 1/2 hour, one to Penn, one to FBA.
* Rush hour - more trains, and some from FBA, some from Penn, and eventually, a lot from GCT. "
What the hell is so hard about transfering to a FBA or GCT train? OB line should just stick with NYP and LIC as terminals, but yeah, add service(1/2 hour is good. NYP-LIC-NYP-LIC-NYP-LIC-NYP-LIC
"As for DMUs? It's not going to happen on LI, they were a flop last 2 times."
Yeah, but those were old ones that flopped everywhere eventually. Colorado Railcar is having widespread success, most of it on tri-rail. It was able to maintain the regular tri-rail schedule on multiple trips with no problem. So far it seems this is the DMU that aint floppin any time soon.
" OB to Valley Stream? Who the fuck wants to go to Valley Stream / far rock from here? I want to go to NYC, not get a tour of LI's ghettos "
Well, that's a very narrow-minded way of putting it. First of all, intra-island travel is booming, and has been for some time now. A north-south route is desperately needed, and this is the perfect one. It could connect with current and new services as well.
wayne
If the houses on either side of the Hempstead line are in different school districts, as I would imagine is the case, the major price difference is easy to understand. House buyers will pay large premiums for access to "good" school districts. Even people without school-age children will do so, because of the higher resale values in the better districts.
For $250K, you get a 3 bedroom house on 0.1 acres with access to Hempstead schools (complete with mold problems, roof problems, average SAT scores in the neighborhood of 900 and continued threats of state supervision).
For $500K, you get a 4 bedroom house on 0.15 acres and access to the Garden City schools (complete with science labs, SAT scores averaging 1100+ and annual Westinghouse finalists).
If it was purely a "race thing" on Long Island, you wouldn't have integrated communities like Valley Stream, Freeport and North Baldwin.
They don't let it go through Washington Street on Sundays. For years, the Sunday N15's terminated at Hempstead.
It skips the courthouse loop on Saturdays (since they're closed), but has run on Washington on Saturdays ever since time began (or at least since my time began...). RFM used to be very limited on Sundays (12-5 only and maybe even closed early on in its existence). When the hours started to grow, MSBA/LIB wanted to extend the N15 but Garden City didn't want the bus on Sundays.
They accept it on Clinton, since that's a 4-lane road with few (if any) houses fronting it.
Still, don't most of the houses on Washington face side streets too?
Same goes for reactivating the link between Country Life Press and West Hempstead. Who would ride it? Especially since it avoids downtown Hempstead where the people are who might actually need/ride it.
If somebody really wants to build something to serve the "hub", then I propose the following:
Start/End at Hempstead LIRR. East along Jackson St, NE on Westbury Blvd to a station at Oak Street serving Hofstra and Mitchell Field Athletic Complex.
The line then splits into a loop. East to a station at Lindbergh and Ovington serving the office building and also the LI Childrens and Cradle of Aviation Museums, then further east to a station serving Nassau Colesium and the Marriott Hotel.
North from there to a station serving Nassau CC and then north again to a station at Merchants Concourse and the Meadowbrook Parkway. (Rebuild the exit there to provide direct access to a parking structure built just north of the Meadowbrook on the vacant land where the Racetrack was.).
North again to a station at the Source Mall. Then west to a station at Zeckendorf Blvd. From there, north and west to the LIRR tracks just west of the Meadowbrook Parkway and east of Glen Cove Road, where a transfer station from the LIRR will be constructed. (No parking, minimal (and possibly no) local access.
Then South to a station at Roosevelt Field. South again to the station at Oak Street and back to Hempstead LIRR.
Alternate trains would go Hempstead/Oak Street/East and then Hempstead/Oak Street/North.
This plan minimizes intrusion on existing residential neighborhoods, with the exception of Westbury Blvd. An alternate plan would be to run from Hempstead LIRR east along Fulton Street (Hempstead Tpk -- NY24) as far as Oak Street and then work similarly to the above.
I remain unconvinced that people will utilize such a service in numbers that warrant its construction -- but if you could convince me that people want public transit to and around the hub, this is what I would build.
Thoughts?
CG
If Nassau wanted a real "Downtown," the best way to get it would be a grade separated ROW running from stations on the main line and south shore LIRR branches through it. That way, people could go east-west on the LIRR, transfer, and run north-south to the "Downtown." It could be light rail or a busway, or start as a busway and switch to light rail if ridership warrents.
Either way, you have to acquire property. If Long Islanders are unwilling to do that, carpools may be the best it can do.
Also, Glen St-Roslyn-Mineola-Stewart Av-Clinton Rd-Mitchell Field-Hofstra-Collesium-NCC.
(not all stops listed for either line)
Both serve either the south shore or main lines or both.
We have not lost touch with reality. We see a rail line with potential and are throwing ideas for its use. Hell, even Nassau County has proposed using it. The NIMBYs. I really don't give a damn how much clout they have. Those narrow minded pricks will deal with it.
"Second it that the spur doesn't actually go anywhere. What kind of ridership is it going to get?"
The spur doesn't go anywhere? Hmm, last I checked, Roosevelt Field Mall was a pretty popular destination, as well as the rest of the hub area. Just extend the line near RFM to Merrick Av to serve the whole shopping area there along Old Country Rd. As for serving Hofstra and the collesium. Simple. Build a loop. It'd branch where the old Mitchell Field spur it, run south to Hofstra, then over to the collesium and then up to NCC, where it'd meet again with the secondary in a westward direction, forming a loop. Stops east of Clinton Rd would be Quentin Roosevelt Blvd, Mitchell Field, Hofstra, Nassau Collesium(near the EAB Plaza and Marriott Hotel), NCC, then back to Quentin Roosevelt Blvd and Clinton Rd. The actual begining of this line could be Mineola like Nassau County is currently proposing, or they could extend it up the OB line to Glen St. With that kinda service area, I think it will definately get some riders.
"There just aren't enough people going from Garden City and Floral Park to Nassau CC to warrant any kind of service."
Exactly, that's why everyone is saying have it run to Mineola and Hempstead, where connections to more or less every other town in Nassau County(as well as parts of suffolk and queens) is available.
"Start/End at Hempstead LIRR. East along Jackson St, NE on Westbury Blvd to a station at Oak Street serving Hofstra and Mitchell Field Athletic Complex.
The line then splits into a loop. East to a station at Lindbergh and Ovington serving the office building and also the LI Childrens and Cradle of Aviation Museums, then further east to a station serving Nassau Colesium and the Marriott Hotel.
North from there to a station serving Nassau CC and then north again to a station at Merchants Concourse and the Meadowbrook Parkway. (Rebuild the exit there to provide direct access to a parking structure built just north of the Meadowbrook on the vacant land where the Racetrack was.).
North again to a station at the Source Mall. Then west to a station at Zeckendorf Blvd. From there, north and west to the LIRR tracks just west of the Meadowbrook Parkway and east of Glen Cove Road, where a transfer station from the LIRR will be constructed. (No parking, minimal (and possibly no) local access.
Then South to a station at Roosevelt Field. South again to the station at Oak Street and back to Hempstead LIRR.
Alternate trains would go Hempstead/Oak Street/East and then Hempstead/Oak Street/North. "
This whole thing is served by the ideas that both I and Nassay County are putting forward, and they utilize existing tracks/ROW. However, I did once have an idea much like yours, not as big as that, but very similar, and still think some of it(up westbury Blvd to NCC, and maybe the source) would still b good.
"This plan minimizes intrusion on existing residential neighborhoods"
What intrustion is there to minimize? None, zilch, zero. The only section where houses line the ROW that would see re-instated service is from CLP to Clinton Rd, and those people have no arguement cuz the tracks were there first. If they didn't want to deal with trains, why did they move next to the one place they are almost gaurenteed to find them?
I still stand by my idea for this as well as an expanded nassau-suffolk rail link that'd bring even more ridership.
These are the same folks that got the audible fire signals removed from three locations in GC village and the response time was decreased by 50% until they came up with a (costly) solution.
wayne
Look at it this way. You're going to commit $XXX million to go to the expense of laying new track and building new stations over an entirely new ROW to create a loop around the Hub area.
You need a way to connect that loop to a major transit Hub (Hempstead). You have two choices:
1) An existing ROW (you'll have to entirely rebuild the tracks along that ROW, though) which will generate huge community opposition and not bring any additional riders (how many people are realistically going to get on/off at Country Life Press or Clinton Road?)
-- or --
2) A new ROW which will generate little or no community opposition as well as generate possible additional riders (a station along Westbury Blvd east of Clinton?).
It seems strange to say this to a guy who's in his teens, but your affection for the GC spur makes me think you're living in the past.
CG
"Look at it this way. You're going to commit $XXX million to go to the expense of laying new track and building new stations over an entirely new ROW to create a loop around the Hub area."
The only new ROW is from Mitchell Field down to Hofstra, east to the Collesium, and up to NCC. You are proposing a whole new ROW. And your also proposing way more costly stations than I am. The new stations I'm proposing(which only really need to be small low level platforms with a small shelter) are Quentin Roosevelt Blvd, Mitchell Field(a high level platform already exists), Hofstra, Nassau Collesium, and NCC.
"1) An existing ROW (you'll have to entirely rebuild the tracks along that ROW, though) which will generate huge community opposition and not bring any additional riders (how many people are realistically going to get on/off at Country Life Press or Clinton Road?)"
"2) A new ROW which will generate little or no community opposition as well as generate possible additional riders (a station along Westbury Blvd east of Clinton?). "
Your proposal will produce just as much, if not more, community opposition. Your saying build a new ROW down a street you said was residential. The ROW I'm saying to use is already there, and is lined by only a few houses. I don't expect an overwhelming amount of ridership from Clinton Rd or Country Life Press, but I don't expect an overwhelming amount of ridership on Westbury Blvd either, which is the only residential area that'd get new service(or, wait, isn't there an LIB route runnin down Westbury Blvd). Still, the main idea is to connect the commercial areas served by this rail system with the LIRR and rest of the bus system.
"but your affection for the GC spur makes me think you're living in the past. "
I sometimes wish I am.
Who the HELL is going to use it?
And, would the NY state DOT please come clean and stop trying to call a bus by every fancy name in the book? It's a bus it's not a 'flex trolley', or a 'rapid commute vehicle', or a 'mass transit alternative vehicle', it's a fucking bus. It's slow, it smells, it rattles, it blocks traffic, and it has a 10 year lifespan.
No matter what you call a bus, it's a bus, and buses flat out suck, and they're expensive to run anyway.
Actually, PCCs are pretty damm nice streetcars. And they can keep up with traffic, as opposed to LI Bus's moving roadblocks.
Photos
The above photo was edited in MGI PhotoSuite III by Chris Slaight.
Map Scans
SIR Annadale Photos
SIR R44 Interior Shots
Enjoy em!
-Chris
the links are the BEST part!
Where's Patience and Fortitude!
They are missing from that picture!!!
GRRRRrrrrrrr
-Chris
Patience and Frotitude are LIONS!
They are *supposed* to be outside of the public library!
WHERE ARE THEY! and what are those thing doing there!
Elias
>>Click here<<
All new design for ease of use.
Hope you like it.
And sorry 1&9 Sf for not providing links. I gotta remember that next time. Ill put the linx at the top of the page.
-Chris
-Chris
SIRT R-44s are not the same as NYCT R-44s.
Or rather it is a different LION that does not have the overhangs and sheer actions that are found on the subways.
Can somebody tell us if the truck placements on SIRT is the same as on NYCT, or are they set differently.
In any event SIRT is a RAILROAD, and has much gentler curves than the subway has, Probably has easier switches too.
Elias
David
Matt
Proposed line from Laurelton to Huntington and the line from Hempstead to Mac Arthur Airport have been combined, and the resulting line has been shortened. 1st, the proposal no longer includes running trains to Rosedale and Laurelton stations, but rather terminating now at the Green Acres Mall.
Also, the new line no longer serves the Hempstead station, nor does it serve the stations between Country Life Press and Huntington on the former Laurelton-Huntington line. Service between Country Life Press and Huntington would still be available via the Hempstead to Northport Village line, though it's a different routing, meaning not stopping at Stewart Av, Mineola, or Carl Place. Those stations are still served by 3 different lines(Glen Cove Ferry Terminal-Nassau Loop, Oyster Bay Far Rockaway, and Mineola-Patchogue).
Other changes to the system are as follows:
1. Selfridge Av stop has been eliminated due to how close it is to the NCC stop.
2. Proposed line from Far Rockaway to Mac Arthur Airport via Babylon line no longer has proposed stops at Inwood, Lawrence, Cedarhurst, Hewlett, or Gibson. It would still stop at Woodmere, though I'm thinking of eliminating that too. This is to speed up the service. Service at those stops listed would still be available via the Far Rockaway-Oyster Bay line.
3. New stop, Dowling College, proposed as addition to Mineola-Patchogue line betweem Great River and Oakdale stops for easier access to the college.
4. Proposed Mac Arthur Airport-Huntington line extended to Landia(LIE intersection with LIRR PJ line at Robbins Ln). I'm still trying to find a way to route the line from Syosset up to Oyster Bay, but so far all I can find forces me to route it in a way that allows it to join the OB line west of OB, which means either turn east and terminate at OB or turn west and terminate at Glen Cove Ferry Terminal. I'd rather serve both, but with this routing, it means I'd have to run it like the A train, with multiple terminals for the same direction, which may work. BTW, this new line would also create a stop in East Norwich at the intersection with Northern Blvd/Rt25A.
wayne
I wonder what's going on ?
Bill "Newkirk"
That, or we got another foamer playing games. >_>
Peace..:&:..Love
J e n
And another question about the MNRR on the LIRR side, how did it get there when the flaps are different, so truck then? Or were the flaps changed for this occassion?
Also, Connecticut now realizes that they will need a new maintenance facility for the M8 (not in the original budget).
I ride MNCR every day. Depending on the train I pick, it makes between 11 and 15 stops. If a push-pull adds a minute per stop because of slow acceleration, you've just increased my ride from 45 minutes to 60.
That might be enough to persuade me to drive. It would certainly be enough to persuade a lot of other people to drive.
wayne
Or will the single-track Essex-Chambers shuttle be using the (old) northbound track for a change? That would actually make some sense -- removing the construction barricades at Canal with passengers walking around might be a challenge.
Well, it's all for the better though in the long run....
Speaking of Bowery, I forgot to mention this before. I'm not sure if the SAS was supposed to join the Nassau line before Bowery or before Canal, but can you imagine if it was before Bowery! Bowery would become the transfer station between J/M/Z riders and the SAS (as it would be the first stop in the union). Imagine the thousands of people getting off and on trains at Bowery! The poor station wouldn't know what hit it!
The IND first planned to use the station.The BMT was gonna be evicted from the Nassau st line,rerouted to the Second and 8th ave subways..and Second ave/6th ave trains would continue Downtown via Nassau st.So overall, Grand st would have been the transfer point for riders to Lower Manhattan/Downtown Brooklyn,and the line would definitly be used more than it is today.
R-32.
R-32.
"Were" the worse, not "are". Of course for Chambers, there is no excuse, but the others are not bad anymore, expecially if not including that pit of a station that is about to be abandoned on Canal St. Bowery, well, it's platform (the one remaining open) is much better than it used to be, but you can't expect much at a station that has the lowest use in all of Manhattan (and in the lowest 5% of ridership of all the stations in the system), of course they won't spend too much time and money on it.
Also, in the Big Apple, anything that gets beautifully renovated doesn't remain so for very long; especially in the subway.
That depends. Fulton and Broad were renovated in 1997 and they look great. It's not that recently.
If you say so. You should know I live in Florida; and you thought something in NY was neat until you come here and Fl. blows it away. Almost nothing in NYC can compare with Florida's high standard of cleanliness. Of course, there are dirty parts here and there, but Fl. is spic and span. Whether you're talking about houses, supermarkets, cars ( if you could find a good deal on a Fl. car - that wasn't in a flood - buy it), and especially the public infrastructure. The highways are class A ( of course that's how most folks get around down here ). The minute you land in Tampa, you get the message from the doorknob. The airport is SPIC and SPAN. I mean not even a piece of paper on the carpet - carpet, they use carpet! Forgeddabout those trash strewn restrooms smelling of piss; the airport restrooms' chrome is shining, the trash cans aren't overflowing, the mirrors are clean, the floor mostly swept, etc. It is such that, even still, I am taken by the striking difference between NY and Tampa/Fla.. New York is a just plain filthy city. Just about any city here (or abroad) is cleaner than NY (even Chicago). I know they've been making big strides above and below ground - and, frankly, I'm glad. Yes there is a marked improvement over when I was coming up - things look much better, but not good enough. Even when NY is nice, it's filthy, compared with the rest of the country - especially Fla. The exception to this is when you go into buildings - private property. Obviously, they have a vested interest in cleanliness; but public infrastructure, forgeddaboutit!! The leads me off my soap box, and back to the subway. I say all this to say that even when a given station is given a makeover, sure it looks good by NY standards, but other parts of the country would do a MUCH better job, not just great, but gorgeous. Yes, including Fl.. Thus I have an awful critical eye. So as for Canal and Bowery, I believe it , of course, but after a year, we'll see.
R-32.
You want a really spotless city, check out Vancouver. In fact, I'd say that Canadian cities in general are cleaner than US ones.
Yes, I have heard that. I never was to Vancouver, but would like to visit there one day.
In fact, I'd say that Canadian cities in general are cleaner than US ones.
That appears true. Case in point, the US side of Niagra Falls, and the Canadian side of Niagra Falls. Now Buffalo....now that was a dirty city when I was there! I haven't been there in many years, so if it's changed, I apologize, but wow was it bad in the 80's.
Yes, I have heard that. I never was to Vancouver, but would like to visit there one day.
In fact, I'd say that Canadian cities in general are cleaner than US ones.
That appears true. Case in point, the US side of Niagra Falls, and the Canadian side of Niagra Falls. Now Buffalo....now that was a dirty city when I was there! I haven't been there in many years, so if it's changed, I apologize, but wow was it bad in the 80's.
R-32.
Look, do understand that, like many of us here, I was born in NY, raised in The Bronx/ Queens. I have a very qualified opinion - if I do say so myself. I remember the graffiti days. I remember the days of trash strewn throughout a subway car. I remember the days when you'd get on a train and an entire cars' lights would be out - all this and more. I thought that was normal - until one day in '85 when we took off to Nairobi with a three day stop-over in London. Immediately I began to realize the alternatives. I'm glad NY has made great strides, but there's still alot to be desired.
That said I agree with you completely about the landscaping at JFK. I was pleasantly surprised. I am very glad. I hope that trend spreads throughout the city. The roads are starting to look nice too. That's the kind of stuff Florida does.
R-32.
BTW, you named alot of the bay area; do you live out here?
R-32.
That's not true. Mickey Mouse only arrived in Orange/Lake counties in the '60's. New Yorkers started moving down before that - as a retirement mecca. That's the bad part about Fl. If you're single [I am] it sucks.
"I have plenty of family there and I know."
Incidently, that's probably the reason alot of yourfamily is down there - retirement (for the most part).
R-32.
Now ,what I do love about FLA,is the non winters....I can't knock that...I visited one year in the middle of Febuary[MIAMI] and MAN..It's lovely....Fla is nice...but it not NY.
And to bring it back to transit.....well, we all know the best subway system in the country - NYC! Others are nice too, but none of them come close to the intricate NY system. New York does need to learn a little bit more abougt eliminating buses though. With that, San Francisco and San Diego blows NY away. I gotta give California credit with some of their abitious rail projects.
Yes ,Im knockin it...why? Because I can.heh heh heh....but I won't trade it for nothin in the world.....What that poem about that Statue in NEW YORK BAY?
"Give me your tired and poor..blah blah blah...I rest my lamp by the Golden door"....something like that?
Nuff Said....
If you say so....
Broad
Broad
Fulton
Fulton
Canal (remaining open side)
Unfortunately, I don't have a photo of the beautiful mosaic recreations they have now installed at Essex (maybe someone else does to post), but they are beautiful. Essex is not quite done yet, but it sure is 2000 times better than just a year ago.
R-32.
As for the decor, they basically gave all the stations a grecian design. This is the original design for the Centre St line, and the design that Canal St and Bowery have had since 1909 (or whenever they were built). All the original mosaics on the Broad St bound platform at Canal St have been preserved, and restored (or replicated where needed). The white tiles have been totally replaced. The granite-like tiles also look great on the floors.
This "grecian" design is what they chose to use when Broad St and Fulton were renovated. As you remember, Broad and Fulton were built to look like IND stations originally, totally out of place with the rest of the stations on the line, and choose the Grecian design to match Canal and Bowery. The current renovation at Essex St is also giving it a Grecian design. The Name tablets now match those at Canal, Bowery, Fulton, and Broad, and has the grecian mosaic band along the ceiling. It has also been reported that they are putting a trackwall up covering the former trolley terminal (although I have not seen it yet personally), so that will also have mosaics on it. The tiles are very colorful at Essex St. I plan to be there on Wednesday, so may take some photos if I have time.
So that leaves Bowery and Chambers. Bowery's platform to remain open still has it's original grecian tiles. The station has been somewhat "cleaned up", especially on the remaining open side, but still is not all that great by other station's standards, but is SO much better than it used to be. I don't expect too much more there for the time being as it is the least used station in all of Manhattan, and many other stations that should be in front of it for complete renovation. It is acceptable for now.
Chambers is still a wreck though. I think they have waited to fix it because it will be a monumental undertaking because of it's size, and also because of the water problems they have there. It will cost extreme amounts of money.
So basically, Bowery is marginal, but acceptable, Chambers is the worst, and all the other stations are in class 1 condition (Essex is in the process) This will be especially true when the two Queens platforms at Canal and Bowery are eliminated next week.
R-32.
R-32.
So lay off it! You think Miami can do better? Or Tampa? They can't even build subways.
"Yes ,Im knockin it...why? Because I can.heh heh heh....but I won't trade it for nothin in the world....."
If you can knock it, so can I. Neither would I trade.
"You think Miami can do better? Or Tampa? They can't even build subways."
With that statement, it's becoming evident that your speech exceeds your knowledge.
First of all, Miami has a 'subway' - no, not that silly people mover, a rapid transit system (it just doesn't adhere to the boundaries of the city, as most modern, recent transit systems don't). Secondly, you should know that in Fl. there is no state income tax. I'm sure all those other states/municipalities with rail rapid transit do tax their residents. As such, the powers that be are not entirely likely to 'get up off' the capital required to fund such a project. They (including Tampa) don't build subways, because - like most southern/ suburban cities - they put their money in the highways. They've got I-4 torn up as I speak to make it twice the size. They don't spend on transit because people love their cars. That - remindedly - includes TONS of New Yorkers, including your family. They don't spend on transit because, you conveniently forget, this is the Jeb Bush state. Remember him? He's the guy who absolutely hates the Florida High Speed Rail project - especially since we voted it into law - they have to build it. You should know, yes, I voted for it.
So Tampa doesn't build a subway not because they don't have technical know how, but because don't entirely have the incentive (although they will in coming years when their roads get saturated). I don't think the residents will welcome a sales/ gas tax increase for the sake of transit; although I'm not sure about that one. You can forgeddabout a state income tax. You see, the very same reason alot of your athletes/ celebrities/ actors move here (there are other advatages too), is the same reason there is a relative lack of transit - especially rail (because there are quite a few bus systems).
"The Nassau st line is not great,nor is it very pretty.But it is historical,and needs renovation to reflect that,especially Chambers st. The line is showing it's age,thats all. "
Well okay then... like I said before it looks worse than the 1904 contract one subway. You said that yourself in another post.
R-32.
But it doesn't anymore! You saw the photos of Broad, Fulton, and the "to remain open" side of Canal. Now here's a photo of the almost completed Essex Street I took today, when i was through there. They are still not finished, so there are still some missing tiles, the columns are still in primer paint, and wires hanging from the ceiling, but it's night and day from what was there!
As for comparing it to the "Contract One 1904 subway", well the Centre St Subway is only 5 years younger, built in 1909. But, I also don't agree that the Contract one stations are in such shambles either. The majority of them also look great, and most have been renovated.
As for Nassau, the truth is, Chambers St is a disaster, but that's the only station that's in shambles. All the others look great (again, aside from the to-be-abandoned in a week platforms at Canal and Bowery. Yes, the to be abandoned platform at Canal is a wreck, and a pit too, but it's to be closed...
To be abandoned side...
The in use side...
Chambers is the only station currently that needs attention. Even the to remain open platform at Bowery has been somewhat spruced up a little, much better than it used to be.
But it doesn't anymore! You saw the photos of Broad, Fulton, and the "to remain open" side of Canal. Now here's a photo of the almost completed Essex Street I took today, when i was through there. They are still not finished, so there are still some missing tiles, the columns are still in primer paint, and wires hanging from the ceiling, but it's night and day from what was there!
As for comparing it to the "Contract One 1904 subway", well the Centre St Subway is only 5 years younger, built in 1909. But, I also don't agree that the Contract one stations are in such shambles either. The majority of them also look great, and most have been renovated.
As for Nassau, the truth is, Chambers St is a disaster, but that's the only station that's in shambles. All the others look great (again, aside from the to-be-abandoned in a week platforms at Canal and Bowery. Yes, the to be abandoned platform at Canal is a wreck, and a pit too, but it's to be closed...
To be abandoned side...
The in use side...
Chambers is the only station currently that needs attention. Even the to remain open platform at Bowery has been somewhat spruced up a little, much better than it used to be.
With the "to remain open photo"
Anyway, I hope for all this beautification, they seal up all that concrete (leaks) up above in the infrastructure, because that's largely the cause of the problem, why the stations looked filthy in the first place - including Chambers St.. I'm not talking about just that incidental concrete that you can see with your eye, I mean that concrete way, way up - whereever. If you don't nip that in the bud, I believe you'll be right back at square one. Look at that photo of old Canal St.. That water leakage is 2/3 of the problem; i.e. imagine how much different it would look without those stains. I keep mentioning concrete, I forget about limestone, which weathers. Those milky white deposits inside the stain patterns are calcium deposits from water leaking through limestone. In some stations, they actually form stalactites - small ones of course.
Now most stations suffer from this from one extent to the other, of course, just that these stations - well we know :-) Concrete over the long term, leaks water - depending on the quality. If we don't fix the source of the leak, I feel we're wasting our time renovating.
R-32.
The renovated platform once looked about as bad as the to be abandoned platform (well, with 10 years less of neglect on it, as the other side has been declining rapidly). Another 10 years, and you are right, the abandoned side will look like Howe Caverns with all the stactites that will soon form.
Jeb Bush...Asshole.Gave the election to his brother...
So who could forget him[conveniently or otherwise]Here's one fellow who hopes the voters have short memories...[outsise of Fla...that is]
Tampa...nice place to visit
Nassau st subway=loop first opened with one station[Delacey st,later changed to Essex st] in 1908 at the foot of the williamsburge bridge.
enjoy FLA.....Hope to see you,on my visit...
Well, it's not tecnically a "subway" (I forgot what they called it, but I think "Metro" or something - it's been about 5 years since I have been on it), but I guess it's the same as us saying we are going onto the "Subway" and then walk UP the stairs to the el station.
It was a "cute" little system when I rode it, but NYC it isn't:
(excuse the poor slide scan, it was done a few years ago with my old (and inferior) slide scanner, and I don't have time to rescan it now).
R-32.
A subway can have extentions on elevated trackage....[like the J does]...
If it begins outside on an EL,AND REMAINS OUTSIDE.....
then it's an ELEVATED RAIL LINE....not subway.
that being said Chris...it seem that some people here don't know what they are talking about,thank you very much....
must be the Florida sun....
In similar news, the north side of the Manhattan BRidge walkway I have been told will open in a coulpe of weeks. They want it open before the beginning of the month, so it may be that Monday before. I have been observing the progress operating over the bridge every week, and when I saw that the remaining fences are being put up in the stone anchorage terraces today, and most other work is done (a few more lights and railing have to go up on the Manhattan side), then after work I rushed over to ask the workers.
Will track 1 still be available for revenue service -- say, for GO's? What about the platforms at Canal and the Bowery?
OTOH, the walled-in section at the south end of the southbound plattform is gone, revealing a few goodies:
Wow, that's strange, they were lit on Wednesday...
Please post them asap. Thanks very much!
Thanks
I don't think it will be that drastic. They're probably gonna keep the current Queens-bound track live, right? And they will probably use the platforms for something, being that they are still part of an active station. In any event, I'll be there (Bowery and Canal) today for the PM rush. Anyone else plan on being there also?
J1 will still be live, but not in revenue service. The platforms will probably be used as storage space.
-Broadway Buffer
True, but by 1928, it was a mere 15 or 20 years. Actually, those little platforms that were at the south end of the Canal St in the curtain wall were used for conductors to pass between trains through the wall when Canal was used as a terminal. (Wow, that must have been confusing for passengers - "Which platform is the next train leaving from?").
The Nassau Line never really lived up to it's great potential. Of course it used to be used much more, but still no where near what could have been sent throgh there as originally designed (remember that the Canal St center tracks were not originally mean to be "stub" tracks like they were for about 90 years.
Chambers St once served trains coming off the Manhattan as well as the Williamsburgh bridge.
Also true, but that's not why Chambers is so huge. The Manhattan Bridge service did not need all the platforms that are there. They only needed the same tracks and platforms that are there in use today. Chambers is so huge because it was designed as a terminal, not a through station. It was designed for a terminal that was expected to see major traffic. Sure, even the LIRR went to Chambers for a while, but when the line was extended through to Fulton, most of Chambers became redundant. In addition, Chambers was also designed to connect to the Brooklyn Bridge in addition to the WIlly B and the Manhattan Bridge, and that never happened either. Three tracks and two platforms would have been more than enough for most of Chambers' life.
(Today, I almost wish they would make it two platforms and two tracks, as that would make it impossible for them to continue the lunacy of having the weekday M terminate there (instead of Broad), and the weekend J terminating there. At the very least, at least with the Canal realignment no one can ever think of that "sick" service plan again of having weekend J's terminate there like they did for a while!)
Also, I suggested to go on and tie J1 together. Then trains bypassing through Canal wouldn't have to cross over to J4. Also, it makes feasible the resumption of rerouting D's through there. As it is, they will no longer have to back out onto the bridge. Southbound, they could just pull into Essex on J1, change ends, and proceed down J1. Then, they would have to wrong rail on J4 between Canal and Chambers, which would be a bitless disruptive than backing out onto the bridge and changing ends there (northbound, the trains were already able to change ends on J4 in the station). But if they tie in the other side of J1, they could continue, and only have to cross the northbound service at the switch north of Chambers.
This was done for a while a few years back. Makes perfect sense. The relay south of Chambers is not needed.
Better yet to run in service to Fulton and relay in the station at Broad.
Some IND second system plans would have treated that territory well and not even the most speculative. Old Williamsburg is the area of Brooklyn that would most benefit from a SAS via Nassau St route. New Williamsburg meaning regions now trendy near the 14 St not Nassau St line. That same "old" area would have had the Brooklyn version of West 4 St. Those plans are dead now of course.
But the part of the BMT Eastern showing the most promise and the most overcrowding has no plans for relief: the L from 8 Av to somewhere before Broadway Junction even at night like midnight SRO crowds you sometimes see on the 1 but not nearly as bad. The 8 Av terminal seems to be the obstacle to more frequent service. Ideally the High Line would be used to extend the L northward but that will not happen. Maybe a spur could be built to the SAS. That would seem to ease crowding on the East Side IRT with a one-seat ride uptown. The L and demand for it may be the BMT Eastern's last great hope.
But the part of the BMT Eastern showing the most promise and the most overcrowding has no plans for relief: the L from 8 Av to somewhere before Broadway Junction even at night like midnight SRO crowds you sometimes see on the 1 but not nearly as bad.
Yes, the L is always crowded, and usually standing room only between Myrtle and Manhattan, but especially between Montrose and Manhattan. You are right, the crowds continue to flock to the L until midnight or even later. Since you are underground, and only looking at passengers, the L looks no different at midnight than it does at 2:00 PM. And Bedford! It's packed well into the night.
The second system would have eased the easern division quite a bit with the S4th ST subway, and there was supposed to be a Myrtle Ave subway too, off of that, into glendale and then to the Montauk and Rockaway branches. It would have eased the L a bit, and all the people entering at Myrtle-Wyckoff from the M would not need to get off their "Myrtle" subway. These lines would
Ooops, I got cut off, and didn't notice it. I meant:
These lines would have really helped the Eastern Division riders, and they would have had all kinds of options, and wouldn't have had to use the L as much, especially Ridgewood and Bushwick residents.
1. Knocking out the wall that blocked the two middle tracks that connected the southbound and northbound platforms on the J/M/Z lines,
2. Connecting the middle express and Queensbound local tracks to what they should be like the tracks between 34-42 Streets on the 6th Avenue Line but only with "X" switches between Canal and Chambers Streets,
3. Having the tail tracks that use to run to the Manhattan Bridge (now used for storing trains) become the Queensbound tracks so the tracks to be like the track structure just south of 59 Street-Columbus Circle where the "B" and "D" trains merge with (uptown) and seperate from (downtown) the "A" and "C" trains or the track structure a little north of 42 Street-Port Aathority (Times Square) where the "E" merges with (downtown) and seperates from (uptown) the "A" and "C" trains so the Second Avenue Subway can run to Brooklyn via Nassau St and Montague Street tunnel or through a new tunnel to link Staten Island to Manhattan,
4. Soften the turn the trains make coming into Essex Street going souhtbound and Chambers Street going northbound and
5. Rehabilitate the northbound J/M/Z platform side of Canal Street.
pg 2
Bill "Newkirk"
Please!!! You are making me all nostalgic! : )
Also I haven't been to Essex since the 12-28-04 MoD trip and wow that station really has improved greatly {imo}
Yeah, Canal Queens side was/is a pit, easily the worst station in the system, even worse than Chambers St.
As for Bowery, it's not really all that bad. I think that Bowery may get a job similar to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, a good place for movie crews to film "subway" scenes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It seems as if the MTA is just adding fuel to the fire of paranoia with these ideas. Now they want to make riders wear Depends too?
Once riders start harassing railfans just trying to get a picture of a train, it's truly gonna be hard to enjoy railfanning anymore.
So the next time you hang out at the station waiting for an M7, Amtrak, or any other train to go by (and or taking photos), or looking around and enjoying the artwork, remember, someone could think you're a terrorist!
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Is it just me or do all the Republican members come from "highway" states while the democrat members come from "rail" states.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06072004.shtml#House
That other person, Corrine something, maybe brown, never heard of her, can't give my input.
For years, Florida has been a donor state to the Highway Trust Fund and the Airport Improvement Program. I was a leader in the fight to change transportation funding through an initiative called "Tea-21," which returns more transportation money to populous states like Florida and Texas. As a result, Florida now receives a 57% increase in transportation funding. Brown is also a member of the Subcommittee on Aviation and she successfully lobbied to change the language in the Airport Improvement Program so that Florida's airports receive more funding from the FAA. Brown is also responsible for securing more than $75 million for a new runway at the Orlando International Airport."
" This subcommittee is very important to Florida and the Third District because of its jurisdiction over the passenger and freight rail industry, which plays a vital role in Florida’s economy"
For years, Florida has been a donor state to the Highway Trust Fund and the Airport Improvement Program. I was a leader in the fight to change transportation funding through an initiative called "Tea-21," which returns more transportation money to populous states like Florida and Texas. As a result, Florida now receives a 57% increase in transportation funding. Brown is also a member of the Subcommittee on Aviation and she successfully lobbied to change the language in the Airport Improvement Program so that Florida's airports receive more funding from the FAA. Brown is also responsible for securing more than $75 million for a new runway at the Orlando International Airport.
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It is good that rail service in the auto State has really taken off since the dismal days of the 50's and 60's.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06072004.shtml#San
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It might be perhaps more effictive if states passed laws holding those that are hit by a train liable for repairs to said train and for the cost of the delay to the railroad.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06072004.shtml#Grade
I really wish these same people would do this at drawbridges. That would be entertaining watching cars fly straight up and into the water.
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I think that with gas prices, road congestion and urban planning what they are in the Original Smog State the tipping point has been reached and the people are mad as hell and are not going to take it anymore.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06072004.shtml#Train
Mark
Mark
The maglev trains would operate up to 240 mph.<<<<
This is nothing more than a dream proposal. A 275 mile Maglev train would cost billions which California does not have. I don't even think you'll get that kind of money for highway construction!
The article on the Lightrail extention is about all we'll see in the next 14 years. Maybe some additional parking for the park & ride crowd.
This wouldn't necessarily be easy, but it could be done without billions of dollars, and it could be done in smaller steps than any new rail line.
These plans if done right would pull people and business into the metro area's core, maybe easing traffic problems, maybe showing what transit and proper land use can do. Once this is done, maybe support for new lines (and mixed use development around them) might build in the area.
Mark
Look how much it cost to build an "Extension" of a light rail system already in place. Half a billion dollars! You can forget the idea of a bullet train.
The prospect of this new rail expansion relieving traffic is nothing more than a dream. There are too many cars in LA and more will be driving in the very near future. If they were taking a "Congestion surcharge" like what they have in England, we might be talking possibilities.
I would assume/hope that any type of "long range" fast rails would travel along those huge freeways(to use the west coast term). elevated or not i don't know. But I think they were relatively straight too.
What I said needed to be done to help relieve congestion was to foster mixed development around the rail lines that already exist. I think Los Angeles needs more lines, but as you say, the money to build them isn't there. Nor is the will. That's why I suggested transit-oriented development around existing rail lines.
Rail lines without this sort of development won't have an effect on congestion, just as you say. If the world the trains operate in isn't built to make using transit convenient, even preferable to driving, then the trains will flop.
I'm not even saying these will solve the traffic problem. I'm just saying it's the first step. Without it, none of the other things that need to be done will work.
As for the "Congestion surcharge," amen to that! I wish they were used more here. But again, to make them feasible, the option of not driving has to be a viable one. This requires not only rail lines, but development that makes transit the best way to get around.
Mark
Mark
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Well it's not like this crap is anything new for CSX. They tried to derail the Baltimore Light Rail project back in the early 90's, but fortunately the MTA had purchased the Northern Central railroad property and could claim a priority date of 1834...60 years older than the CSX line. That shut them up.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06072004.shtml#Safety
R-32.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
I personally love that thing, it's a great connector and great for economic development/tourism. Not to mention in gridlock, i'm jealous of watching the trolleys zoom off meanwhile I can't move 2 inches in traffic. There's 2 hotels going up in it's location SOLEY because of that trolley(one's chipping in 100g's), and soon going to be 2 30story apt towers and one other for the same reason.
As far as single tracking goes, after enough times, i've noticed the only real problem is at centro ybor. That trolley has to wait random times. Most of the time none of the rest of the line has a problem. They've gotten a lot obetter in front of channelside now too. But I wish they could do something at Ybor, that's the only bottleneck right now.
Channelside is a crock! In my view, a big prop to bring in quick dollars. Half the shop space is empty, and there isn't much exciting going on there, yet they don't mind charging you $500 parking to do it! Ybor City, now that's more like it; because it's real, already there (established), and not synthetic and 'manufactured' to look like some hip hub that has always been that way.
R-32.
I agree with you on the difference on Ybor City vs. channelside. I was surprised to find out how channelside is getting a lot of business now, along with baywalk and all that junk is oversaturated. You haven't seen channelside in the last few months though, almost all the space is occupied now except possibly one slot. All gorgeous upscale restaruants.
You outta see it when a cruise ship is docked. All the hot chick bartenders(damnit, i'm a guy and i took a course, i could never get one of them jobs), live music, people all around. It's neat then.
Really? Actually, it's been a few years since I've been there. I saw a movie there ('Crouching Tiger'), and the video games in the new arcade were free at the time - go figure. The trolley tracks' right of way were evident by the 'blank rails' in the concrete. Where the track is now there was some parking. I remember, I got told to move...heh heh. At a later point, they put the rails in, but left the switches out. I made a special note because I was wondering how they would conceal the frogs, but the switchblades especially. I can just see some curious child whose fingers wander where no finger has gone before. SNAP!!! Anyhow, at that time, of course, there was no catenary. I'm dying to try the trolley, but I keep forgetting when I'm down there.
BTW...LOL on the bartending. Murphy's law.
R-32.
Anyway, in case you missed the last posts on here for who knows how long, they dont' use frogs or anything. Each direction has it's own wire. makes sense to me I guess. The best on the trolley is from one of the channelside stops and take that straight up towards ybor. A few of those guys open it up. Other direction isnt' bad. But I hate the ybor stop going back, there's always a freakin wait. That and the extention needs work. Plus, what's with these morons who's never crossed a street before and never used a farebox? They hold it up too!
I'm also mad about ybor garages charging now. There's been a drop off in parking since they started, and the idiots can't see why!
Anyway, you want a useless bartending certificate?
"Anyway, in case you missed the last posts on here for who knows how long, they dont' use frogs or anything. Each direction has it's own wire. makes sense to me I guess. "
What are you referring to? When I refer to frogs, I'm talking about down on the track, on the switch at the intersection of the two converging inner rails. All switches would have to have frogs. Do they use separate catenary wires for their power in each direction? That's odd if they do. I thought power is power, and it's up to the vehicle to translate it into forward or reverse. Any idea on the voltage (probably D.C.)?
I see what you mean with those parking garages, though I had no idea they were free at one time. The last time I parked there they were happy to take our money. Besides, I always assume that a parking garage is not free; rare is the case when it is. Unless it's at a mall, ( even then, Queens Mall's garage isn't free - you know that ) it's rarely free. The one exception I know of is in Clearwater. There is a small municipal garage on Park St. right behind the SunTrust building and right next to the Clearwater PD (which itself has its own parking garage built not too long ago). IIRC, it's free on weekends and after hours. That's great for concerts in Coachman Park - a short walk away. I use it every time the Clearwater Jazz Holiday is in town. Any how, you know those garages in Ybor weren't there only a few years ago (five or six). Things change so fast down here! Also, back behind 7th Ave. on 8th Ave. there are those Municipal lots. Well they were free. However, even now at about 50 cents a half hour they're still reasonable - if you can find a space.
"That and the extention needs work."
Which extension? I heard some rumors about extending the line out to around 22nd St., thereabouts; I wonder if that's what you're referring to.
"Plus, what's with these morons who's never crossed a street before and never used a farebox? They hold it up too! "
Dude, you know most southerners don't have the first clue about transit; opertators or passengers. Which is why they should have [or at least planned to] double-tracked the line in the first place.
R-32.
My question is this: I dont' get how much money they settled for. A two million deductable for taxpayers? Whoopdee doo. That's only if something happens at THAT crossing, and there's what, 4 trains a day or maybe 5-6 there? *yawn*
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I'd urge you once again to write or call, but I think that if you want to be heard you might try one of Homer Simpsons's attention getting techniques :-)
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06142004.shtml#House
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Ouch, my eyes just about rolled out of my head. If the "terrorists" don't catch their train at DC union after 5:30 PM they might as well pick it up at let's say Silver Spring or Alexandria. Did anyone ever think that blowing up an Amtrak LD train would be a complete waste of time?? they don't travel over important corridors, they carry few passengers and if you just way a week they'll probably derail anyway.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06142004.shtml#TSA
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See, as I said Terrorists need not waste their time with Amtrak. Even the slightest breeze could finish them off.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06142004.shtml#Derailment
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I thought Taxachussetts was like liberal heaven...how did this asshole get into office? All I can say is stick it to 'em. When they built that second bridge into the outer banks of NC it totally ruined the islands...turned them into a suburb. Keep traffic out of cape cod!!
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06142004.shtml#Romney
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MTBA has weekend service...Caltrain has weekend service...might MARC be next to get weekend service??
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06142004.shtml#Caltrain
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?8297
>>The URL is http://www.freewebs.com/siny_r143.
>>Click here to visit Chris's NYC Transit Photography
>>Click for new links page
-Chris
If ye can be 'doing this' then ye can also be 'doing' the FEEDBACK gimmick.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
I was riding on a B heading from Brooklyn. I eventually reached 34th-HS where I decided to tranfer onto the V right across to get home in Queens. The B didn't even budge when my V left. The culprit? A 'dead' D was at 42nd. I noted the C/R: he was talking with some confused straphangers. Extreme crowding was present at 47-50.
I thought that was BS, but I didn't say anything.
I switched at Jamaica for a Brooklyn train. The M-1 I boarded was very cool inside and the heat was NOT on.
Whatever.
At least he seemed to know what he was talking about and didn't come up with some BS excuse.
In school car they told us this for NYCT equipment as well. Well, it was more like the thermo was on the floor heater circuit. So naturally, all of the morons who don't pay attention in school car cut out any breaker with the word "heat" in it (Overhead Heat, Floor Heat), and viola! hot car. This goes for the old timers especially because they "know better".
Yuck. I wonder why those idiots even get MTA jobs... What's this, another fine example of social promotion of flunkies?
You're lucky you were able to switch trains. Imagine being stuck in a Coach USA bus headed for the Lincoln tunnel with the heater on and it's nearly 90 degrees outside!
Now you know why I don't take the bus anymore.
hayos
-DYLAN
Starting next week, stops will be added at Queens Village and Hollis for the summer.
Eastbound there are 3 mainline trains that stop at Floral Park. The 4:54 AM Flatbush to Huntington and the 5:47 and 8:00 AM trains from Penn to Huntington.
No weekend Floral Park main line service.
CG
A friend wants to come along with me for the first time but is concerned about the ending stop. My guess would be Columbus Circle. If so then he would come into to Times Square by taking the LIRR to Penn and the 7th Ave subway for one stop. I might then meet him there rather than driving to Queens.
Your pal,
Fred
Times Sq. to Queensboro Plaza, switch to Astoria line, run up to Astoria, then down and thru 60th St, via Broadway local to City Hall LL, back up Broadway to Roosevelt Island, down 6th Ave to W4th, then via 8th Ave to the Rockaways, then back via the A line to 207th St. The biggest mystery will be where we have our lunchstop.
Wonder if we're doing the HH thing while in the Rockaways ?
Chris: I won't be surprised if they use Rockaway Park again like they did last year. There a little cafeteria right in the station.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, RedbirdR33
-Chris
I think a more pressing question is what livery will the last 2 Redbirds bear? We already have the 60's cardinal red/yellow and the 70's silver/blue. What now?
SubwaySpot.com is holding it's first ever photo contest! The contest is open to any photo taken by any photographer on Saturday's MoD trip.
The prize....
A free ticket to a future MoD trip courtesy of SubwaySpot.com!
The contest details will be finalized when I put up the section on Saturday's trip, probably monday.
The basic rules are:
- The photo must have been taken during the saturday MoD trip.
More rules regarding submission will be drawn up.
Good luck to all those who wish to enter! I will be personally judging the entries.
My choice would be the fictitious Joseph Porter KCB the "Monarch of the Sea - the Ruler of the Queen'e Navy" from Gilbert and Sullivans "HMS Pinafore". While Porter's law partnership "was the only ship he ever had seen !" politcal shennanigans got him appointed head of the Navy.
Vince
One and a fifth.....
WASHINGTON (AP) - The Metro Board gave final approval Thursday to a series of fare hikes that will kick in at the end of the month.
The hikes are second increase in as many years. The transit agency's Budget Committee voted in favor of the increases last week.
Minimum subway fares are climb 15 cents to $1.35, with the maximum rush hour fare rising 30 cents to $3.90.
Local buses cost $1.25, a nickel more, with express routes going to $3, up 50 cents. Parking fees at Metrorail stations also increase by an additional 75 cents.
All the hikes are expected to take effect June 27.
Metro will begin weekday subway service 30 minutes earlier, at 5 a.m. Passengers using late night weekend service could find themselves paying rush hour fares between 2 a.m. and 3 a.m. Saturday and Sunday mornings.
The cash-strapped transit agency faces an estimated $23.4 million budget shortfall. The hikes are expected to raise $29.2 million, with Metro officials saying the difference would be used to help pay for services and to lower subsidies paid by jurisdictions served by Metro.
I will never forget this incident I had there in the Fall of 1999:
I lived/worked in London for 4 monts then, My commute was 'the drain' (Waterloo & City Line) from Bank to Waterloo, where I would transfer to a South West Train to Richmond. Richmond was an express stop on the main line and service was meant to be very frequent especally during rush hours. One day I get to Waterloo the Big Destination Board says "Cancled" for the next 5 trains to Richmond meaning that the next train will be in 1/2 an hour. I get on that train, its crowded to the brim. Over the PA we are told "We are trying to find the driver". We wait on the crowded train for 10 more minutes until the driver comes and we fineally leave.
Hardly a tragedy by New York standards. Let's see ... there were five trains to Richmond in a half-hour period (only LIRR to Jamaica and MN to 125th would have that frequency); the train was jammed (ever ride a Ronkonkoma line train on the LIRR?); and the delay lasted 10 minutes (an eyeblink by NYC standards).
Has anyone else tried it?
What are your thoughts?
Joe K
I just tried it as I am typing this thread and it works - for now.
I don't like the actual ten-trip tickets themselves, because the punch spots aren't numbered and are directly opposite the MetroCard magnetic stripe, so you can't get a MetroCard on your ten-trip even though it says "MetroCard" on the back. (I wouldn't do it anyway, but it's stupid to have what seems to be a MetroCard without the option of using it as a MetroCard, and I bet it's possible to "refill" them in an MVM and then get the card punched.)
I hate the interface, especially how some of it doesn't work with Safari.
What I hate most of all is that they seem to sit on your order for a day before mailing the ticket out.
Yup. You've got to be on a Mac to play along - if you aren't, think about it when considering your next computer purchase. :)
I use Netscape 7.1, much better than buggy 7.0.
I HATE I.E.
Might I recommend Firefox? It has Netscape roots, but lacks the bloat. And it seems to work with the parts of WebTicket that Safari has trouble with. (If you need mail and news too, add Thunderbird.)
Mark
One requirement: the station must currently exist and be in use for revenue service. Obviously, time has forgotten the closed stations (even if we haven't) and the stations on lines that no longer exist (the els, et al) don't count.
Here are my nominees:
Vernon-Jackson, IRT Flushing Line: This station dates back to the Dual Contracts. The original tilework is still there, nearly untouched. There is still a tiled sign pointing one "To Vernon Avenue" even though the street name was changed to Vernon Boulevard decades ago. There are still yellow bulbs in the upper level.
High Street, IND 8th Avenue Line: This station is named after a street that, because of construction in downtown Brooklyn over the years, has shrunk to one city block in length. There are many original IND "decal" signs in the station, pointing riders to the Red Cross Building (which was closed and is now being renovated by the City), the St. George Hotel and the intersection of Adams and High Streets. The stairways still have the original wooden railings. The platform is fairly modernized but the mezzanine, other than the flourescent lighting, is pure 1930's.
Others?
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Chris
Mike
Chambers Street's potential makes its current condition all the more disturbing.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/chambers/chambers.html
Only stations CURRENTLY IN REVENUE SERVICE count in this poll. The side platforms obviously are not in revenue service.
-Chris
Vince
They said at the meeting that the TA had committed itself to put demolition plans on hold if the LPC showed any interest at all in saving the station and they did. I have been in touch with Ron and with an architect/historian for the commission and they are developing plans to preserve the station. It seems 90% certain that the exterior will be preserved, perhaps even restored. As to the interior, that's an open question, since it differs somewhat from the original. I think we may expect it won't look the same inside as now.
So it looks like Avenue H will enter its second century. Keep your fingers, toes, and anything else you've got crossed.
mike
Regards,
Jimmy
Also, another vote for BMT Chambers St. (J/M/Z).
What about Bushwick-Aberdeen on the L?
Actually, Chambers and Bushwick are better candidates, but there is one that I just thought of that may sound crazy at first, but it could be in the top 10 or so of "untouched" stations. I mention this because of flourescent lighting. I am going to mention Euclid Ave as an honorable mention. It has tiled columns, so they look like they did when it first opened in the 40's. It was built with flourescent lighting, so that looks like opening day. The only thing they did there is change the hanging signs, and added a safety strip in the 70's to the edges of the platforms, otherwise....time has stood still. The locals stations at Liberty, VanSiclen, and Shephard too. All had flourescent lighting when opened in the 40's. Only changes there - safety strip and track destination signs - also can't get too much more original than that.
And there renovating stations anyways.
Its A subway station. And most of them are elevated anyways.
They been doing so in renovations. I'm not sure how progression is lately though.
I think the station was being redone, and there was garbage all over the place, including the 3-4 girls who were there and not going anywhere(proberly prostitutes since they said they werent taking the train which I overheard).
READ next time, I was clearly talking different things.
But I mean, come on, they looked like skanks anyways.
As for individual stations, Van Wyck Blvd should at least get honorable mention for being named for a street that hasn't existed for some 50 years!
:-) Andrew
:-) Andrew
Jackie Gleason was born on Chauncey Street. That's why he had Ralph Kramden and Ed Northon living there, although he "moved" the street from Bushwich to Bensonhurst.
Was 104th Street really called "104-102 Streets" (with 104 in front) at one point?
No, Ely Avenue is the former name of 23 Street.
Those were slated for closure but never did, so they were left to rot.
Which leaves the 1 car Atlantic station as a local station(last car for both directions).
Bob
Take Kedzie, Francisco, and about 60 other stations in Chicago. Another one that I still wonder why it's never been renovated is Berks Av. on the MFL in Philadelphia.
Vince
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Mark
Mark
And even if we cut that down, the current job that I'm in would still have an unlimited amount of work for me as a result.
I wonder if a little civil disobedience might be in order. Suppose a LARGE group of photographers were to go out on the same day, and at the same time, and begin snapping away. I'm talking about a highly coordinated effort that would target all local transportation agencies: NYCTA, LIRR, Metro-North, NJT, etc. Using the old Arlo Guthrie thinking ("...they may think it's a movement!"), the protest could place a enough of a short term drain on their photographric policing efforts that they may give up.
Now, I'm not normally the type of person who advocates such things, but there are consitutional rights involved here that require an outpouring of civil disobedience to make a point. As long as we rail photographers sit back and let the fear and over-reaction of transportation agencies to potential terrorism slice away the rights of citizens (read: us), we will be facing a downward spiral that ends in a police state.
At what cost security?
Our own "The Joe" organized something like this already. Where were you?
If the protest goes to 347 Madison again, how about on a weekday, when someone is there to see it?
I can't wait for the book burning to come up next.
Oh don't worry, that's next. Web sites too.
Your pal,
Fred
Great minds think alike. I was thinking the same thing while driving home from work this evening.
If its on a weekend and I am free, I'd be happy to join up, as I need shots of the new Stillwell Ave. Terminal anyway (that is assuming it opened while I was gone). That's actually probably the ONLY way I'll have ANYTHING to do with the New York Subway anytime soon. Right now in my eyes the TA is lower than the dirt beneath my Dog's poop.
One thing I can tell you, this is purely a regional effort. While I was on my 5-week excursion this past month, I hit four of the newer properties (Denver, Houston, New Orleans and Dallas) and had absolutely NO problems. The railroads were even friendlier and the crews seemed to go out of their way--all was normal. It only goes to reinforce what is regrettably becoming the case: you've got the Northeast, and then you've got the rest of America. Hysteria is winning out in one; common sense in the other. It's very sad.
Keep us posted, and also maybe we can start lighting a fire under the ACLU's pattootee at the same time. This BS has to go to court sooner or later!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I use "randomly" in quotes because we know the searches will be anything but. However, such discretion is blatantly illegal, so they've opted to sail under the somewhat less offensive "random" banner.
It just goes to show that these infringements spread like cancer - before long you'll have the same rights walking down the street as you do now when visiting a prison. That is, you can be detained and interrogated at any time, subject to all manner of search and seizure, and may be asked to immediately leave the premises by virtually anyone at any time for any reason (or even no specific reason). In prisons there are plenty of good reasons to have such security, but apparently some want to extend the same turn-your-head-and-cough thank-you-sir-may-I-have-another policies all over the place.
I'd be up for a Saturday photo protest - it's actually the only day that I could attend.
If you haven't as yet signed the anti-photo ban petition at the above link, now is as good a time as any.
As of now, the signature count is 1111.
- on that note, when should it be done again?
Realistically, if we want a huge amount of people to turn out, we need a good 3-4 weeks to promote it and really get word out to everyone (since obviously there are people who didn't even know about the first one...) . Either that, or at least 2 weeks advance notice, and an even larger dedicated group of people who will print up flyers, post about it and email it all over the web, and more press, of course (DN and Times articles were nice, but the more good press for the cause we can get, the better).
I'd be all for dropping by 347 on a weekday, but the chances of getting a big enough crowd on a weekday are probably a little smaller.
But I can't FATHOM why the TA wouldn't allow women into the craft MANY decades ago. :(
Interesting that T/O was a "male" job and stations a "female" job. I could see that flip-flopping, as train cars become computer-controlled and if station agents are expected to step out of the booth and act more like security guards, train operation could become more female and station work more male.
Jobs in NYC seem to have strange gender rules. For instance, there seems to be a high percentage of women police officers, probably more than in most other cities. Yet the FDNY is almost entirely male, which is not the case elsewhere (e.g. the Minneapolis FD is almost 25% female, and that's not counting EMS workers). You'll very seldom see women taxi drivers in the city, yet in the 'burbs it's a different story.
But yeah, she DID want to go out for motors after doing her time as a conductor. TA would have none of that. :(
TA didn't hire off the street in those days. Only way you got the motorman's job was through a promotion.
Regards,
Jimmy
Peace,
ANDEE
David
Track 3 was for Northbound Harlem Line Trains
Track 1 was for Northbound New Haven Line Trains
Track 4 was for all Southbound Trains
Track 2 was for all Northbound Hudson Line Trains
You saw Diesels side by side with other diesels (they were crusing at the same speed, maybe the engineers were talking?) M7's, M2,4,6. It was a helluva site, I am defintly going to go there during peak hours and take pictures. It was amazing, some tracks had 1 minute spaces between trains. For instance on track 1 the 5:30 train to New Rochelle came in, then at 5:31 the train to New Haven arrived, or was it the other way around. But 1 minute spacing was amazing, and watching it made me realize how much of a pain in the ass it must be for any tower to watch, maintain, and keep everything at a safe distance, given 3 lines, peak hours, 4 tracks.
I respect them for that, it's amazing, but please get the M1/3's to have A/C! 3 trains in a row with no A/C.
FYI there are no towers and spacing is all done automatically through the signaling system. All the MNRR dispatchers do is play video games on an NT box where points are awarded on how badly they can screw over Amtrak.
If you really want to be impressed visit DOCK, JAY or HALL. There you'll see some real railroading.
To be fair, Dave Gunn did change that around a while back, and it keeps changing, so who can remember. Even I can't remember anymore.
...play video games on an NT box where points are awarded on how badly they can screw over Amtrak.
That might be true. I wonder why MBCR doesn't do this.
AEM7
And Amtrak dispatchers do the same with LIRR and NJT trains at Penn, so it evens out....
Mike, have you ever visited JAY or HALL towers, or are you only talking about watching the interlockings? I'd love to see what goes into switching so many trains through the spaghetti as they manage to do.
Mark
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I suppose Harold handles more trains, but 125th is definitely the easiest place to sit and see dozens of trains go by in an hour.
I still don't see why MNRR felt the need to concentrate all of it's dispatchers downtown in an office building when if they were out lineside with centralized supervision operations could be much more efficient. When one has a view of the tracks it is much easier to guage what is going on and a dispatcher will make more informed choices. It's all part of this push to make dispatching part of "mamagement" rather than operations. SEPTA is still having trouble since closing it's towers about 1.5 years ago.
The new captions use the Canal IND font and have a black border around the edge. The new tile band is a slightly less violet shade of blue, Copenhagen blue to be exact.
wayne
I think you can tell which is which.
As long as there are examples of the old font at some stations, I don't care. It's boring to see the same font at EVERY SINGLE IND station.
As long as there are examples of the old font at some stations, I don't care. It's boring to see the same font at EVERY SINGLE IND station.
wayne
So I guess they don't want this back at this point:
Sorry I meant the mosaics at Delancey Street, where the gross font is. There are fish head and cherry mosaics along the platform, with large pictorials in the transfer areas. Fish on the S/B and Cherries on the N/B. I haven't stopped by to look at the larger works yet, but they do brighten up the station.
But if they;re going to make mosaics like THAT clusterfuck at Canal...they shouldn't even bother...it's just not the same with Helvetica...
I *can* tell which is witch! The older ones are nicer and easier to read.
Elias
And I stand by my opinion.
-W.E.S.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The wrong font, AND the wrong size!
They are being covered over for the first time by the current renovation.
Does anybody know of any MNRR, LIRR, or NYCT bus books? TIA. I'd be very interested.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
>>LIRR Books
>>MNR Books
>>Bus Books
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-RJM
Anyone else passing by or in the know about why forty minutes was taked onto my trip?
I was told that a rat jumped onto the platform.
Thank you.
The woodlawn bound 4 trains were only making stops at 5 bronx stations, which were: Woodlawn, Moshulu parkway, Burnside Av, 149 and 138st GC.
The 5 was running as a bronx express at noon, going to eastchester-Dyre avenue.
What exactly happened today on the 4/5/6, resulting in a "celebration of the Bronx Express", especially at midday?
4 line G.O.
5 line G.O.
6 line G.O., tomorrow, it's Manhattan-bound 6 running express.
Thanks for the info!
They have some dating to when the (B) and (C) both annoyingly serviced 168th, creating unnecessary confusion for people.
-Julian
According to Peter Dougherty's site, they will not be updated for now.
If you like, you can download them, by clicking here, and update them yourself in Microsoft Paint or something. Then maybe email them to David Pirmann and see if he'll put them online.
I updated the downtown Blkln area and 63 st connector area on my maps, but I probably wont ask to put them online because what we have is fine for now.
-Chris
Q should get more 63rd st time all the way to 179 st Express(I DONT CARE IF THERE ARE 68A'S ON QBLVD THE Q CAN JUST COME FROM CI)
V can run 63rd st only during rush hours to forest hills local
V terminate at 57/6th all other times between kings hwy to this stop
more G service eliminate theV
THE G WANTS ITS 6 R46'S BACK OR 8 R32'S
No it can't, with through traffic it is now impossible to use 57/6 as a terminal with or without the right switches. It would have to go to 71 Forest Hills all times in that case.
"more G service eliminate theV"
You're crazy! The G is fine the way it is. I would like to see it back at 71 again, but to say that it has more ridership than the V is crazy. The V is more utalized then the G any day of the week from what I've seen at any rate.
-Broadway Buffer
David
Your pal,
Fred
Regards,
Jimmy
Well, You got *that* part right, anyway.
Let me see what I can think up (Taking into account operational requirements such as you have not done.):
(E) Jamaica Center EIGHTH AVENUE EXPRESS via 53rd St Tunnel to:
E1 = Euclid via Fulton Local
E2 = Lefferts via Fulton Local [Except Rush Hours]
E3 = Lefferts via Fulton Express [Rush Hours]
(F) 179th Street SIXTH AVENUE LINE via 53rd St Tunnel to Coney Island via Culver Local (Smith Street Express Day Times)
(G) Court Plaza QUEENS CROSSTOWN to Church Avenue
(N) Astoria BROADWAY EXPRESS to Coney Island via Sea Beach (Bridge)
(M) Metropolitan Avenue NASSAU STREET to Ninth Avenue via West End (Tunnel)
(Q) 179th Street BROADWAY EXPRESS via 63rd St Tunnel to Coney Island via Brighton Local (Bridge)
(R) Continential Avenue BROADWAY LOCAL via 60th St Tunnel to Ft. Hamilton via Fourth Avenue Local (Tunnel)
(V) Continential Avenue SIXTH AVENUE LINE via 63rd St Tunnel to Chambers WTC
(W) Astoria BROADWAY LOCAL via 60th St Tunnel to:
W1 = Bay Parkway via Sea Beach (Tunnel) [Rush Hour Put-ins]
W2 = Whitehall Street
W3 = City Hall (Lower Level) [Rush Hour Extras]
(A) 207th Street EIGHTH AVENUE EXPRESS to:
A1 = Far Rockaway via Fulton Express
A2 = Rockaway Park via Fulton Local [Rush Hours]
A3 = Howard Beach via Fulton Express
HH = Broad Channel to Rockway Park [Non Rush Hours]
(C) 168th Street EIGHTH AVENUE LOCAL to Church Avenue (Rutgers)
Chew on that for a while... Elias
Yes, you are absolutly correct. I just havent figured out an elegant way to do it.
Right now the (C) terminates at Euclid... all well and good;
and (A) goes to Lefferts, Far Rock or Rock Park sometimes with some help from a shuttle.
If I would send the (E) up there instead of the (C), then I'd have more tph than Euclid by itself would need. If I would send them all to Lefferts that would be more service than Lefferts needs.
If I make the (E) Local on Fulton, run it to Lefferts with some making a short turn at Euclid... well that was sort of my base idea. So what if during rush hour you take thoes Lefferts trains and make the city bound trains "diamond"(E)s and run them express. (All PM trains are local to avoid confusion).
Then I'd have all (A) trains headed to Howard Beach and/or Far Rock.
*That* is less confusing than what is now. And even now there are some Rock Park (A) trains during the rush hours. Maybe those trians could pick up some Fulton Local stops to replace those skipped by the < E>.
There has to be a better way, but I havent thunked of it yet.
(Save of course the some pie-in-the-sky (or other part of the eco-systems) that would send something out to 76th Street and beyond.)
Elias
-Broadway Buffer
Well then, Junction, Dante, or whatever you call yourself, where do you think the R-160's should go, or where do you think other trains should be moved around to and/or retired to accomidate them?
-Broadway Buffer
There are of course other places I wish they would go in certain quantities to facilitate certain fantasy service patterns, but that is another matter.
David
Try follow the new signals installation to guess where the cars are going and when.
They are going on the SUBWAY SYSTEM. I mean, they would look rather silly running on a bus line, or across the Whitestone Bridge.
The first cars for the tuna fleet (scrappers torch... whatever) will be the 38s, 40s and the 42s. It is possible that some 44s will go before the 32s.
Elias
1) Which cars are to be scrapped!
2) Which fleets will be increased.
3) Which shops & yards need to be updated.
4) Which cars will be moved from A yard to B yard or A shop to B shop.
5) Which shops and lines will the mechanics and train crews need to be trained first.
6) What are the political considerations in where new cars are assigned.
7) Where will vendors put their facilities.
They are not going to wire up Queens and the A/C for NTS/ATS/CBTC and then put the new cars in the South.
Look for Queens and or the A/C to get the new cars in conjunction with them getting wired with the new signals.
In your TA computer (BBS?)try to look for a file named "STAGE-3.DOC" with the heading "Master Plan for New Technology Signals Program".
-Broadway Buffer
What are the reasons for this? They seem to break down more often than any other car class except the IRT Redbirds in their last years but that is not an actual measurement and personal observations aren't scientific. Larger operators look uncomfortable at the controls.
As for replacing them first, it would take more than a ratio of 1 new car: 1 R-44 unless 75' cars were moved from current assignments to replace them.
Actually even if they do shuffle 75-footers arround it still ultimately means a loss of capacity if 75 footers are replaced 1-1 with 60-footers. For every 12 R44s that would (hypothetically) be scraped you'd need 15 R160's, otherwise you're destroying capacity somewhere.
:-) Andrew
...or to reduce that fraction even farther, for ever 4 R44s you'd need 5 R160's.
:-) Andrew
Yes, I just meant locally to retain capacity - thanks for clearing that up. It suggests that maybe more 75' cars should be built. They have now been around for over 30 years. Have the savings they generated in terms of less cars to maintain and buy justified considering more 75' cars in the future?
I don't definitively know. But the consensus seems to be that 75-footers aren't really worth it. They can't run on parts of the B-division, and that means a loss of flexibility any way you slice it. Really the more interchangeable cars are, the better. Standardization may be boring, but it means greater flexibility. And once the R44s and R46s start to come to the ends of their useful lives, they won't be able to hide them on the Eastern Division.
:-) Andrew
-RJM
75-footers really haven't proven their worth. Even if they could run everywhere in the B-division they can never run on consists with 60-footers (I believe R68s and R68As can technically run with pre-R44 cars, but it can't be a good idea what with the differential in weight.) And just by simple virtue of the cars being longer it means that they're by nature less flexible--and that works on several levels. They're less flexible at making turns, so even the turns they do make aren't as smooth as 60-foot cars. Since there are fewer segments there are fewer possible train lengths, a problem made worse by the fact that almost all 75-footers are arranged in 4-car units (as opposed to 2-car married pairs for the pre-R44 cars.) So if you want a shorter train than the standard for the C line, for instance, the R44 is out because it simply can't do anything near 48 feet. Finally 75-footers have fewer doors, and on a system as busy as NYC's, that really not a good thing.
:-) Andrew
-Broadway Buffer
That isn't a huge objection. The L and J run exclusively on BMT Eastern trackage. The M takes 8-car consists to 10-car platforms for a few hours weekdays. Flexibility is always good but aside from the K for a few years when Nixon was president that flexibility hasn't been used so why should it function as a constraint? BMT Eastern will not suffer for only using 60' cars.
But they may get to use new 75' cars without modification. The problem seems to be not length per se but sideswipes. Maybe trucks could be placed to avoid this. 67' BMT Standards managed.
Really the more interchangeable cars are, the better. Standardization may be boring, but it means greater flexibility.
I saw a R-40/40M/42 consist on the B. Can't we do without that? The trend nowadays, which makes good sense, is to assign only a few car classes to each shop. That makes each shop specialists at what they do and gives operators a good look at their equipment. On the exterior there's little hope that a new 75' car would be anything more than an elongated R-143 and not even a city version of the M-7.
The R-46 cars are a large part of the B division fleet and the savings for replacing them with 75' cars might be considerable.
Nope, they will have to hide them on the (C), (G), and RockPark Shuttle.
Elias
:-) Andrew
They are NOT replaced car for car, but rather train for train.
No Net Capacity Change.
The r-46's fared much better - they have different brakes - except for the one achilles heel that made everything mute. Of course I refer to the trucks that started cracking. That's like a fat Merc with no tires; beautiful and useless.
R-32.
What alterations should be made? Um, lots!
trains.
They may also see service on the
and maybe even on the .
Hope that helps.
-Chris
-Chris
Isn't their arrival date supposed to be 2005?
-Julian
David
BTW: Look for the 5 car links to preceed the 4-car links, at least to the test phase.
MANY people have posted that their front will be silver not black.
Personally, I like the black front. However, I think the windows at the end of each car should be enlarged, like on the R110.
-Julian
Personally, I believe that they will be identical to the R143s.
(semi-shame)
-Julian
Be on the lookout when they come in, BB.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
slow your roll...
We don't know exactly where these cars are going, we can only do one of two things:
1) Speculate, as we always do
2) Wait and see, which we all FAIL to do...
Or we can:
3) Make up little anecdotes of our own of where we think the should or would most likely go, as we ALWAYS do, ALL of us, I am including myself, I admit I have speculated and assumed and made up things pertaining to this...but let's just see what happens. The TA changes their minds faster than we change the toilet paper in our bathrooms, and they can say one thing and make it official one day just to repeal it and say something else...
For now, the R160 4-car sets are slated for the J/M/Z lines to makes all of the BMT Eastern Division new-tech trains. The 5-car set assignments are up for grabs. From what I understand, the first 5-car sets are going to the A line. After that is pure speculation and further debate. Originally, the cars would have operated the Q line, and maybe the D, E, and F lines with the option order(s) coming in...now, I'm hearing that assignments might change to other lines due to certain people in certain facilities fighting against receiving the cars, so the decision process must commence yet again.
In other words, STAY TUNED FOR THE NEXT EPISODE...
SAS
We want to terminate shuttle trains at Euclid from the south, but we can't, because we already have C trains terminating at Euclid from the north.
So why not turn half of those C trains into shuttle trains? In other words, why not extend alternate C trains to Rock Park on weekends?
IINM, the summer shuttle doesn't run OPTO anyway.
Reliability of C service - same issues with having a very long run that already apply to the A now apply to the C as well.
-Broadway Buffer
Great! now instead of having the (S) train conflict with the (C) train, you have the (C) train conflicting with the (C) train.
Which is to say that a station may have a problem being both a thru-station and a terminal at the same time. In theroy, yes it could be done, assuming that all of the trains remain on schedule. But at the end of a long run such is not always sooth.
Elias
There is no need to return to this service pattern. The C local was useless between Broad Channel and Euclid Ave because almost all Rock Park spur riders transferred to the A at Broad Channel. The current setup is the most efficient, at least until all that new housing being built is completed and occupied.
That seems pretty good to me unless I'm missing something.
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
So I'm going with what the TA said they were going to do....replace all the cars at ENY yard[JMZ]except the 143's,and place 340 cars in Pitkin yard for A/C service.
Of course that can change,but I guess we wil have to wait and see.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
the R40's came in three types.The R40 slope front,R40 slope with AC and the R40[M]redesign with AC...THERE WERE 300 slope front cars and 100 modified end cars.The R40m cars[what i WAS talking about]could have been concidered the"A"part of the contract,due to the redesign of the front end.
David
Who, specifically, at MTA?
David
-Broadway Buffer
-Chris
-Chris
-Broadway Buffer
They shouldn't. They have decades of experience with their own cars. Why junk that?
He fails to realize that that is NOT a real R-68 and in fact is a MOCK-UP OF ITS FRONT END.
LOL.
-Chris
All through the incident he acted very professional, never threatening to touch or take away the cameras. At least he had that going for him. He even showed me his badge, though I didn't think to get his badge number. Fortunately for all of you and unfortunately for him, the whole incident was recorded by the video mode of a digital camera. So soon you will all be able to hear it, and maybe we can identify this guy and have someone straighten him out as to what the rules really are. He should get a copy of the rules and read them so that he'll be able to recognize the rules when someone presents them to him in the future.
If this guy doesn't get straightened out soon, he's gonna have a heart attack tomorrow and/or Monday when he sees all the railfans at Canal and Bowery taking photos and video :)
Here's the video with audio (8.4M)
You didn't miss anything. They don't have badge numbers.
No, they are generic badges. If it was sort of oval, it's a TSS; if it was more roundish, it's a Superintendent. Anyway, you have his name on the tape.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Yeah they roll it up and stuff it in your mouth so nobody hears you scream as they violate it (and you)...
I couldn't make it out, but did someone say "Are you working on a project?"
Larry,RedbirdR33
-Chris
-Chris
Da Hui
-Chris
lower level city hall, get stoked.
Chuck Greene
Adam
-Chris
Peace,
ANDEE
It also could be him after having all that booze, it is up to you to decide.
Adam
This will be my first MOD trip as well...
Oh, and here's me... Not for the faint of heart...
Weather is predicted to be a sunny day with low humidity. Too bad we can't get off and go on the rides at Playland.
CLAMBAKE
I'll be in shorts, that's all I know for now...Look out for me...I'm gonna be around with R62A #1979, The 795, Amanda, R33 #8840, etc...
KIBACHI!
SAS
The Port Authority today launched a record $809 million investment in its Port Authority Trans-Hudson (PATH) rapid-transit rail system by formally seeking proposals from contractors to replace or rehabilitate its entire railcar fleet.
The request for proposals calls for the design and fabrication of 246 new rail cars. As part of their proposal, contractors also were required to submit alternate bids for the rehabilitation or replacement of an additional 94 cars.
The $809 million program cost also includes the award of several contracts for car maintenance equipment, renovations to the Harrison Maintenance Facility, and preliminary work on a new signal system. It is the largest single investment in PATH since the Port Authority acquired it from the Hudson and Manhattan Railroad in 1962.
New Jersey Governor James E. McGreevey said, “For more than 40 years, the PATH system has provided a key mass transit option that allows commuters to spend less time in their cars and more time with their families. These new PATH cars will demonstrate our unwavering commitment to public transportation in New Jersey, and will help my administration improve the quality of life for all commuters by reducing congestion at our bridges and tunnels.”
New York Governor George E. Pataki said, “This historic investment in PATH will continue our monumental effort to restore the economy and vitality that existed in Lower Manhattan before the tragic September 11, 2001, attacks. These new cars will convince even more people to use public transportation when traveling to jobs or recreation activities in Lower Manhattan and in other parts of the city.”
Port Authority Chairman Anthony R. Coscia said, “The purchase of new PATH cars is a critical component of the Port Authority’s ambitious $8.7 billion capital plan, which will allow us to fulfill our regional mandate to enhance the transportation system in New York and New Jersey. In addition to buying new PATH cars, the Port Authority also is finalizing plans to build a spectacular World Trade Center Transportation Hub that will rival the great transportation facilities throughout the country.”
Port Authority Vice Chairman Charles A. Gargano said, “The redevelopment of Lower Manhattan hinges on our ability to provide a world-class transportation system that will allow commuters and visitors to travel easily to and from the downtown area. Upgrading the PATH system is a key component of that plan, along with our efforts to improve the Fulton Street subway station and develop a one-seat ride to John F. Kennedy International Airport.”
Port Authority Executive Director Joseph J. Seymour said, “These new cars will further improve our ability to attract more riders to the PATH system. Since the opening of the temporary World Trade Center PATH Station last November, ridership at that station has far exceeded our projections, and we believe it will continue to grow once we provide our customers with the additional passenger amenities available in the new PATH cars.”
The new cars will have improved lighting, air conditioning and heating; cantilevered seats with room for passengers to store items under them; prerecorded station announcements; better signs; and three doors on each side to allow for faster loading and unloading.
The Port Authority expects to award a contract for the new PATH cars late this year, and have the first of them in passenger service in late 2008 or early 2009. The entire fleet is expected to be replaced or rehabilitated by 2011.
The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey operates many of the busiest and most important transportation links in the region. They include John F. Kennedy International, Newark Liberty International, LaGuardia and Teterboro airports; AirTrain JFK and AirTrain Newark; the George Washington Bridge; the Lincoln and Holland tunnels; the three bridges between Staten Island and New Jersey; the PATH (Port Authority Trans-Hudson) rapid-transit rail system; the Port Authority-Downtown Manhattan Heliport; Port Newark; the Elizabeth-Port Authority Marine Terminal; the Howland Hook Marine Terminal on Staten Island; the Brooklyn Piers/Red Hook Container Terminal; and the Port Authority Bus Terminal in midtown Manhattan. The agency also owns the 16-acre World Trade Center site in Lower Manhattan. The Port Authority is financially self-supporting and receives no tax revenue from either state.
Disposable cars?
Back in the day cars were built to and maintained to last 40-60 years.
They really should avoid doing it when the posted service advisories state that the D is running local (and the C express), but the GO has been cancelled. Then again, this is the same tower that once held my southbound B train to let a D go first even though not one but two D's (and two A's and a C) had already gone by while I was waiting for the B, so I won't hold my breath.
Here's the breakdown:
4:03, 4:22, 4:44, 5:04 all begin at 168th Street.
The 5:16 pm begins at Dyckman St.
In fact after 4:11 pm, the next Lefferts Blvd "A" train departs 207th St at 4:57 pm. All other "A" trains to Lefferts Blvd depart from 168th St. In other words, ALL "A" trains departing from 207th St between 4:11 pm and 4:57 pm are going to Far Rockaway ONLY.
Here's one for the record books: once upon a time I was on a n/b D train that got switched to A6, and we skipped 135th St. on it. I'm curious as to why that track doesn't just continue past 135th St. and become the n/b Concourse local track. It merges with A2 and A4, then C2 begins shortly beyond there. Could it be that at one time that track was continuous?
As to your TRACK mystery, those were LAYUPS ... never used, but that was the design. REMEMBER, unlike the "other competitive lines," The IND "thought different." Those tracks were there for the purpose of layup of "GAP TRAINS" available to 125 to send south so as to not scroo up the railroad in midtown where it MATTERED. As things worked out, didn't NEED them, but there they were just the same. Like the Pentagon - "four sides and a spare." =)
Same story with our light rail system in Denver. All junctions are wyes, with some legs not normally used. One exception is the new wye being built at the I-25/I-225 junction. Instead of meeting at grade, the tracks approach each leg on flying junctions - mainly because all three legs will be used at that junction.
Ditto for the unused loop connection downtown. It came in mighty handy when part of the line was shut down during construction. Trains from 30th Ave. simply looped around and went back. Sometimes the operator would even set the signs for 14th Street. You don't see that marking very often.
Sory for the harsh words, but the IND was built to TAXPAYER shakedown, not corporate. It was over-engineered the Nth! Who'da figured years later that the GOVERNMENT solution would get short-sheeted while the PRIVATE solution gets gold-plated to the Nth?!?! WHATTA COUNTRY as Yacov Smirnoff would say. :-\
GO REPUBLICANS, You GO GIRL! ... as if the destruction of ANY chance for a NYC SUBWAY museum with 9 miles fo track up HERE went down the toity, the very *LAST* chance of commuter rail, "light rail" or anything else LIKE steel wheels JUSt went in the toity here, Bush/SWEENEY style:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=257730&category=REGION&newsdate=6/16/2004
The ABOVE was *SUPPOSED* to be a TRAIN. PHUCK you, Shrub. :(
Coulda, shoulda woulda ... we almost had RAILCARS - REAL trains on the route. Instead, we get rubber tires, more Orions or their ilk. DESPITE the traffic of the Oliver Northway, no need for TRAINS, just another 55X will do the trick. =(
We COULDA had trains ... but SWEENEY and MCNULTY decided to measure their "viagra" and thus, we get NOTHING since BOTH of these crooks are running UNOPPOSED ... Democraps HAVE no balls. :(
And just as a word of caution , since our host here is *SO* torn up about the ineveitable reality of POLITICS impinging on TRANSIT ... aS RUSH hissle says, "Trolleys, donkeycarts and DEMOCRAT realities - they'd all RATHER we ride TROLLEYS than a HUMMER" (WORD!) As long as REPUBLICANS RULE, *SO* do the SAUDIS. Republicans, SAUDIS, slit your throat. Can't TALK about that here, and BUSES are OFF TOPIC TOO! :(
Why they never bothered to include "Carnegie Hall" along with "57th Street" is beyond me.
I think they tried to make up for that mistake with those little historical did deds of various artist, who performed there, on the tiles in the fare control area.
The park was designed with the Museum in mind so it predates the station by at least 50 years.
I assume that is the original tile from the 30s right?
Some of it.
1. Q44-QBX1-BL 45
2. Q44-(2)-BL 60/61
3. Q44-(5)-BL 60/61
4. Q44-(2)-BL 42
5. (E)-(6)-BL 45
6. (E)-(2)-BL 42
7. (E)-(2)-BL 60/61
8. (F)-(5)-BL 60/61
9. (F)-(6)-BL 45
I was thinking option 8 will be the best since I be going to New Rochelle Tuesday Afternoon due to an event in my school and why I think is Option 8 is the best is because the 5 is pretty fast at rush hours(Lex Ave and Bronx Express) but the only problem is should I switch over to the BL 60/61 at Pelham Parkway(5 via WPR) or Baychester Ave(5 via Dyre).
Tell me what is the best one.
Regards,
Jimmy
I meant going into Manhattan is not a time saver. I placed the parenthesis in the wrong spot. Sorry about that.
Jimmy ;)
If you are trying to save money I don't think its that expensive getting on at Fordham.
Even without passes, New Roc-Fordham is cheap, then walk up Kingsbridge to the Concourse line.
www.greyhound.com
www.trailways.com
www.shortlinebus.com
The New Rochelle stop is about 1/2 mile from the MN stop, unless they finally moved it to the MN stop(they recently finished a new bus terminal I believe and said Greyhound was moving there, so I assume Shortline and Trailways did/will as well.
When I saw these photos (taken by Rob Marrero-R36 9346 in April), I (nearly) cried. This is the first time I've seen photos of a Corona yard with not a single Redbird in sight. Corona for the first time ever is a place of all silver-with not a single painted car. The Redbird-free Corona we've imagined we would never see is here.
Jimmy :)
Unless they moved them, they were there a few days ago.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
However, they have exterior "texture". The ridges do a much better job at breaking up the sides than colors do.
The only exception IMO is the R38 where the part ridge/part flat makes it look old. Until I knew better I always thought the R32 were the newer of the rolling stock (not knowing #s at the time) based on how the full ridged sides had a more modern look. R38s to me looked like a transition phase from Redbird to R32, of course I know better now. Regardless, its look still better than color alone.
My CURRENT faves are:
SEPTA M4 MFSE cars
All of the WMATA cars, especially the Rohrs
SEPTA BSS Kawasaki cars
R142
R40 Slants
R44/46/68-68a 75 foot cars
PATH fleet
PATCO fleet
My RETIRED faves are:
SEPTA "Almond Joy" Budd Cars
R36 WF cars [original paint]
R10 cars [A train scheme]
CTA 6000 series cars
And all of the other Redbird series [R26/28/33/36 mainline]
My favorite MONORAIL cars (so far): Disney Mark IV (they had a old time British style boarding/disembarkation door scheme), Disney Mark V/VI, Seattle-Alweg. Japanese monorails may be the sturdiest out there, but they certainly don't look graceful.
wayne
Well heres My list
Current:
M1-6
R38
R40s/m
Retired:
R1-9
R10
R16
R17
R21-22
R27
R29
R33ML
R36ML
And most of all
R30AGOH
Retired Favorites:
R10, R12/14, R15, R16, R17, R21/22, R26/28/29, R33ML/WF, R36ML/WF, R27/30.
Make acception for:
Low-V, R1/9, R142, R46/44(pre-GOH), R68/68A.
Ick:
R11/34, R143, R8A.
Regards,
Jimmy
Favorite retired:
R-33/36 WF/ML
R-26/28/29
D via Brighton !!!
BART's Slanted 'A' Cars
R-142 or R-142A's(until I get Tired of Riding Them)
WMATA Breda Cars
Chicago 2200 series cars, soon to be retired if they haven't been already
R-46's- Someone has to love these cars!
Retired Faves:
R-9's
North Broad Cars
B Types
Low V's
Paris 'Sprague' Cars
They have not been retired and are getting a light overhaul as the RFP for the next series was cancelled due to the Brass wanting features that the RFP couldn't be modified to allow. So, the 2200s will be around for a while as the new RFP has not come out yet and may not for another few months. They may make 40 years on the road! Quite commendable given that they were "cheaper" cars and their predecessors (the 2000s) only lasted about 29 years due to their "new technology" not allowing them to be work cars and presenting other problems. The 2200s are still going strong and look brand new and I think they are getting new speedometer/cab signal displays with blueish backlighting that looks very neat and high tech. The "blinker" doors are also cool, but not allowed anymore due to the ADA. The envy of the fleet!
Matt
Retired: Delaware River Bridge trains
Retired:
R-110B
Peace,
ANDEE
Retired? CRT/CTA 5001-5003 (later 51-54) articulateds, particularly in their original CRT red and silver livery; CRT/CTA 4000's.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Current: R142A
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Retired: R16
RETIRED:
London: 1959 Stock
New York: BMT Bluebird
Paris: MP55
All of BART's A, B, C1 and C2 cars
I don't have a favorite subway car(or light rail).
-R40 Slants
-R46s
-R142/R142a's
-R143s
-R32/38's are not that bad either IMO.
-R62s
-All WMATA cars
(BTW, my LEAST favs are R40M/R42's, R44's and R68's)
My RETIRED favorites are
-Manhattan El cars
-BMT Bluebirds/BMT Zephyr
-D-Type Triplexes
-Low-V's
-All Redbirds(Even more before they were red)
-R110A & B
-Chris
The R1/9 cars are better. Sorry, Fred.
My retired favs:
All IRT Redbird car class
R1/9
R142/a/3
R40 Slant
R32
Retired:
All Redbirds
R110b
-Julian
CURRENT: Any type of car that will let me look out the front railfan window on the end storm door with no obstruction.
RETIRED: R-10's, R-1/9's.
In case wonders, I have visited inside R-10 #3184 and R-9 #1802 each at the Transit Museum on four separate visits, with the last one being on Sunday 6/6/2004 in the afternoon. So cool still!
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
Matt
NJT
-Alp46
-Alp44
-All comet cars
-Arrow 3s
LIRR/MNRR
-M1
-M3
-Bomb cars
-Bi levels
Septa
-M4
-Subway surface cars
-Norristown Cars
-BSS cars
Amtrak
-AEM7s
-Amfleets
-Viewliners
-Superliners
-Heritage fleet
Strafford car
N-5?
Retired:
R1/9
R33ML
Retired Favorites:
All REDBIRDS!!
-Broadway Buffer
R-32's forever!
R32
R40
R42
R62
R68A
R142A
R143
retired:
D types
R1/9(fav:R7A#1575)
Redbirds
til next time
CURRENT:
R62A (whom keep me sane from an Rmadillo infested IRT)
My least favorite: R62/R62A, thank God north Brooklyn doesn't really have them.
Favorite retired: Redbirds that were recently retired, also the R27's and R30's
Regards,
Jimmy
--Seth
Jimmy
Problem is money, we got the money for tickets and food ready, but a place to stay is what I need help with.
Who knows of a really cheap Motel? Or any fellow London subtalkers feeling like taking me and my dad in for a certain amount of time?
I'm planning anywhere from July 7th-8th to August 10th or anywhere around then.
I stayed at the Parkside Hotel when in London last January and paid about $75 per night. It's a pretty basic place, but it's clean and you get free breakfast. It's in the Finsbury Park area of North London, a fairly dreary part of the city, but you probably won't be spending much time in the immediate neighborhood. The hotel is a few minutes' walk from Manor House station on the Picadilly Line, and a slightly longer walk from Finsbury Park station on the Picadilly and Victoria lines.
London doesn't really have American-style motels, except maybe in the distant suburbs..
AEM7
Free full breakfast, too, which was nice. Only downside was that the rooms were SMALL. I mean prison-cell small. But if it's only a place to crash at night, well, it should do nicely. Frankly a few nights there wouldn't bother me, but a month would start to get on my nerves.
I just checked a discount site at http://room4u.org.uk/hotels/hotel.asp?ID=1981 and it shows an internet special rate of £40 a night.
I'm actually going over myself in August for 4 weeks, but staying at my in-law's flat in Muswell Hill. *My* trouble is finding airfare under $700! I'm going to wait a few days and hopefully I'll find a seat sale or something. It was $510 last year for the same trip!
Also, since money's an issue for you, please realise that the dollar is very weak against the pound (thanks, dubya), and that things are natually much more expensive in the UK than here. You might do better to find accommodation that has a kitchenette and buy groceries at Sainsburys or Tesco, rather than eating at restaurants and pubs for 3 or 4 weeks.
Good luck, in any event, have fun, and hope it isn't as hot this year as it was last.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming July 5th
I've been to London just 1 month ago and tried finding cheap hotels - didn't work. I asked a friend of mine who lives in London and someone else who travels to London every other weekend and does stay at cheap hotels - nothing.
I eventually went for a youth hostel - it's about 20 pounds ($36.6) a night in a shared bedroom. You will not be able to get any bed for less than that, sorry. With two people, you can get your own room at a youth hostel for 49 pounds [$90] - I suggest the one in Hampstead Heath...it's spacious, quiet and only a 5 minute walk from Golders Green Northern line station. I remember seeing a hotel next to Wembley Stadium (IBIS hotel) offering rooms for 49 pounds a night on weekdays and 39 pounds on weekends. It's located right by Wembley Stadium National Rail station or a 10 min walk from Wembley Park (Jubilee and Metropolitan lines) or Wembley Central (Bakerloo line and National Rail).
My friend who travels to London every other weekend (this one included) stays at a Travelodge in the Docklands (a short walk from one of the Docklands Light Railway stations), but that's 50 pounds a night too.
Good luck on locating cheap hotels in London. Better take enough cash for London is one of the most expensive places in the world!
But I might have to delay going there, I still have to go get a passport(theres places to get it asap, so thats not a worry), but I need my state id, and I still gotta get one. -_-, so by then I should have enough cash to actually stay in london.
So hopefully I can be in london by the end of july.
If you think so, you're in for a big surprise...
Meals are much more expensive in London than in Paris.
The equivalent of a $5 lunch in NYC would probably cost £5 in London.
In Paris, you can get that for 3 Euros if you avoid the tourists-oriented places (where they charge you 5 Euros for a coffee).
www.octopustravel.com
(payment in advance)
and
www.s-h-systems.co.uk
(beware, check first, some prices are out of date)
The further you have to stay out, the more any saving will be offset by travelling to London, especially if you end up having to pay for peak rate commutes. Look at the travelcard zones, and try to stay within these, otherwise things can get really expensive. Looking around the suburbs (e.g. Wembley, Croydon) I don't think there is much scope for getting below 45 pounds per night for two people in a twin room.
From the 2nd link, I found http://www.smoothhound.co.uk/a56122.html
Lowest price, seems good, I still gotta recheck it and make sure its still in effect in pricing.
BTW How much is the pound/euro worth to the dollar now, or vice versa anyways???
http://www.smoothhound.co.uk/a00164.html
According to
http://www.x-rates.com/
$1 = 55 pence. Ouch, thats going to cut your holiday fun. Time for me to buy and import some more Lifelike trains subway cars.
And damn, only 55 cents per dollor(wish's it was canada with double the currency for each dollor), and aint pence euro though? So how about pounds/cents form? Or does the euro cent and pound cent both have the same name?
1 pound sterling = 100 pence
1 euro = 100 cents (european cents, not US$ cents)
1 euro = 0.66 pounds, 66 pence
1 pound = 1.52 euro, 1 euro 52 cents
BTW when I do this: £££££££, do you see lots of pound signs, or just weird illegal characters?
Thanks to the recent gains for the UK Independence party in the european elections, I think we will be keeping pound sterling for a while yet. More money for the banks in exchange-rate rip-offs
Those euro-cents are confusing. They should have used a different name for fractions of a euro.
And come to think of it, I think it was cent...(the 3 dots is there because it was a bigger word with cent in the name, I gotta recheck my euro money but its in my other apartment -_-)
Euro symbol is a C crossed out twice. Pound sign is similar but has a base as well, or is Bill Gates subverting sterling by making pound signs come out as euro symbols?
Euro (Monopoly Money)
I like the euro symbol best over the pound symbol. :/
All the pound sign is, is a capital E, with the euro sign being a lowercase e.
No, it's a particularly florid version of Ł. I'm not sure what the Euro symbol is meant to be. Probably it was drawn by a bureaucrat. Actually no, it'll have been a committee of bureaucrats who spent most of the meeting debating how to inflate their expenses claims.
The euro sign I have always assumed is an E (for euro!).
The Euro sign is a compromise, it is drawn to be shaped like an E but if you look at it, it kind of resembles a Pound sign to please the British to entice the Brits to sign up.
History of the Euro
The old sixpences, shillings and two-shilling pieces stayed in circulation after the 1971 decimalization, re-christened 2.5 (new) pence, 5 pence and 10 pence coins. The actual new 5 and 10 pence coins issued were the same size as the old one-shilling and two-shilling coins respectively, and these stayed in circulation alongside their new counterparts.
Subsequently (in the 1990s) our coins shrank - the current 5 and 10 pence coins are much smaller - and when that happened, the last of the old pre-decimal coins finally vanished. The sixpences (there never was an actual 2.5 new pence coin) were kept in circulation as a concession to popular opinion by the incoming Tory government in 1971, but in fact quietly disappeared quite early after decimalization. I found a dozen or so of them in the back of a drawer at home just the other day.
Even if they were circulating well into the late seventies, you couldn't use them on public phones or Tube ticket machines so they weren't very useful. OTOH, you could use French 20 centimes on the 5p machines.:-P
Absolutely - come on over! You might be surprised by the amount of new rolling stock on commuter lines and some tube lines - though none of the subsurface Underground lines, where the *newest* is approaching 25 years old. And of course the Jubilee Line and the Docklands LR have been extended since 1993. The Croydon Tramlink (opened 2000) is fun - it's nice to see red trams in London again, even if they are bendy single-deckers. There are red single-deck bendy buses in central London too, and the Routemaster isn't dead yet, even though the newest of them are 36 years old and the oldest survivors are past 40.
I sincerely hope not. Can you imagine Oxford Street with the buses effectively double the length for the same capacity? Ouch!
Then, when they've almost worked out what's going on, tell them something costs a Guinea and wait for the reaction of dumbfoundedness...
Why the hell did we give up such great opportunities to confuse the rest of the world?
Oh and for foreigners, a clue:
or in the unlikely even you prefer it's modern equivalent:
OTOH, these went fairly quickly:
Information about banknotes is at the Bank of England Site, which uses frames (badly), so it’s difficult to reference the page you want. Follow the Banknotes & Banking link and all the information you want is there.
I'm not sure I agree that the shrinking of the 50p coins was pointless. In Australia and New Zealand they still have the original coins from when they decimalized, and I thought their 50c pieces were absurdly huge, considering they are worth quite a lot less than US50c.
I just noticed that, and also the fact that I put a Scots Shilling up too...
OTOH, these went fairly quickly: [image of 10s note]
Now that's what I call real money!
Seriously, our currency has become so worthless it needs seriously rebasing (Alternatively we should start counting everything in Shillings). Perhaps we should use the opportunity to dedecimalise. It's a bit silly having a decimal currency when the coins worth one-hundredth and two-hundredths of the unit are utterly useless.
And don’t bother with the rebasing. Sooner or later the UK will adopt the Euro (but not before much bickering aboud “real money”). Decimalization déjà vu.
I wasn’t there, but I would bet money that there was howling, wailing and gnashing of teeth when the 5p, 10p and 50p coins were made a more reasonable size.
I'd definitely be in favour of that!
I remember a Mars bar costing 6d. How much does one cost now?
Between 6 and 8s. Talk about inflation!
And don’t bother with the rebasing. Sooner or later the UK will adopt the Euro (but not before much bickering aboud “real money”).
The Euro's off the political agenda. The British public has always been hostile to the EU and is getting more so. It would be political suicide to advocate any further integration. Remember that in the recent European election, turnout almost doubled from the previous one, the largest party was the highly eurosceptic Conservative Party, and 21% of the voters found them too "weak" on Europe and voted for either UKIP or the BNP. Were the Conservative parliamentary party anything less of a disaster than they actually are, Blair could not be getting any sort of European policy through. Even so, he has been forced to stage a referendum on the proposed European Constitution, one which he is bound to lose.
I wasn’t there, but I would bet money that there was howling, wailing and gnashing of teeth when the 5p, 10p and 50p coins were made a more reasonable size.
Yes. Mainly because of the nuisance value of the old ones stopping being valid too quickly. The other problem is that the 5p is now too small and extremely easy to lose. The one which was a total waste of time to change was the 50p. The size difference is minimal.
In the meantime, a few choruses of “The English, The English, The English are best! So up with the English and down with the rest!…And crossing the Channel, one cannot say much, Of French and the Spanish, the Danish or Dutch, The Germans are German, the Russians are red, And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed!”
They already have been doing that for several years. But they are losing the argument, as the recent European parliament election result showed.
I used to take your view, that eventually the Euro would come to Britain, just as I also thought that full Scottish independence (within the EU) would inevitably happen, Now I'm not so sure. On both issues, opinion is moving the other way.
Scotland is a notable policy success for Labour. With that parliament in Edinburgh they have successfully made independence seem irrelevant. Hats off to the Blairites on that one.
On the subject of the Euro, I don't see why the City wants it. The so-called Stability and Growth Pact on which it is founded is an economic disaster. Next time there's a recession, Europe will be dragged down by its terms.
There must be some sort of way of getting a universal currency system that works for 10 loosely affiliated states. After all, USA can manage it for 50-something states.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
There must be some sort of way of getting a universal currency system that works for 10 loosely affiliated states. After all, USA can manage it for 50-something states.
The current one is about the same size as a US dime. Dimes have never fared too well in vending machines and payphones here. How does the "current shilling coin" fare against machinery?
BTW, I hate the Euro. It is roughly over a dollar and easy to do the conversion but make me lose the sense of how each country prices their goods.
And I like the look of the pound shown, though I'm not going to London it seems at the time :/, I think I might want to get some pound coins, looks cool.
Any other photos of the pound coin, or should I just google for photos.
Yowsers, reminds me of the 50state quarters, except these actually look cool.
Yep. But mostly no-one looks at them.
How much you think I would need if I say, want to buy 12, 1 pound coins from the foreign currency dealer? I know different dealers are different in prices, but whats the estimate you think?
What I suggest you do is walk into a bank in the UK (preferably a large branch when it's quiet) with £12 in cash and ask them nicely to change it for one of each version of the £1 coin. They should be happy to do so . Likewise if you want Scots or Irish banknotes, or alternatively want rid of them, this is how to do it. As far as cost goes, with current exchange rates, the value's about $20.
How many different versions are there exactly? And is it one version PER year?
I need to know because If I dont, I'd be driving the foreign exchange dealer crazy. :P
John's given you all the £1 coin designs there are. Of course, there are also some £1 notes around still (NB only Scottish ones are still valid; shopkeepers will give you very strange looks if you try to use them in most of England as virtually no-one South of about Durham knows what they look like):
Royal Bank of Scotland
FRONT
BACK
(There were also various commemorative versions issued in the 90s, but these are very rare as Pound notes wear out quickly!)
The Bank of Scotland and the Clydesdale Bank withdrew their £1 notes quite some time ago. The other Scottish bank which issued its own notes, the Scottish Linen Bank, is long defunct.
A number of banks in Northern Ireland also issue notes (although none have a £1 note any more), namely the Bank of Ireland, the First Trust Bank, the Northern Bank, and the Ulster Bank. There used to be more: the Allied Irish Bank, the Belfast Banking Company, the National Bank, and the Provincial Bank of Ireland all used to issue their own notes. You will never see NI notes outside Northern Ireland (you used to get them in the Republic in pre-Euro days as the Irish Pound was worth a fraction less than the British one, so it was in shopkeepers' interests to take them), but the key thing to remember is that they aren't all the same colour as their English and Scottish counterparts (or indeed as eachother); notably, the Ulster Bank fiver is purple:
FRONT
BACK
You may be disappointed to note that both England and Wales use Bank of England notes only.
They're still valid to buy Budweiser
Not well. Most machines take only 10p, 20p, 50p, one pound and (maybe) two-pound coins; few accept the 5p.
On the other hand, payphones in the USA used to take dimes quite happily, when the local-call rate was 10c and later 20c. I can't recall one ever failing on me.
You were lucky, unless it was when payphones had individual slots for each coin. I haven't tried with the Metrocard machines yet, but I usually avoid using them on payphones and soda machines.
Tell that to the pre-Euro French or Italians.... :)
But in fact the pound sterling is one of the *largest* currency units around, so what you say is even more true of most of the others!
Both Australia and New Zealand have done away with coins smaller than 5c. This doesn't stop people having prices in odd cents if they want to; if people pay by plastic or cheque, the odd cents are no problem, and if they pay in cash the point-of-sale terminal applies rounding.
1 pound sterling = 100 pence
1 euro = 100 cents (european cents, not US$ cents)
1 euro = 0.66 pounds, 66 pence
1 pound = 1.52 euro, 1 euro 52 cents
BTW when I do this: £££££££, do you see lots of pound signs, or just weird illegal characters?
Thanks to the recent gains for the UK Independence party in the european elections, I think we will be keeping pound sterling for a while yet. More money for the banks in exchange-rate rip-offs
Those euro-cents are confusing. They should have used a different name for fractions of a euro.
Put like that, New York's $2 fare seems pretty reasonable. The £2 Zone 1 single works out at $3.64.
The Finsbury Park area, where I stayed in January, also seemed to have quite a few older, reasnably inexpensive hotels. It was a somewhat dubiuous area, however; I didn't see Shepherd's Bush, but it's probably nicer than Finsbury Park.
but I would definitely not venture off onto side streets
Me neither, in both areas.
Me neither, in both areas.<<<<<
What's on both areas??
I thought Europe was supposed to be safe?
I thought Europe was supposed to be safe?
It may not be as bad as some places in US cities, each large city has its own unsafe neighbourhoods. There are some lines in Paris, that I wouldn't want to ride at night unless it's necessary.
Which ones? I bet they'll be ones I actually HAVE ridden at night...
There are other parts that I would avoid but I'll post those later if you want. Right now, I gotta go. :)
I always had a interest in the 3bis/7bis/ and I think it was the 11? loop for some reason, and I been interested about the station "Haxo" which never opened and had no entrence built. :/
The 10, most likely.
I been interested about the station "Haxo"
Never had the chance to visit there on the rare fan trips. Some of my friends have.
3bis/7bis
Could be a little rough(or empty) at night.
I've only used RER B/D a couple of times North of Châtelet, mostly daytime, but once at night from St-Dénis to Gare du Nord. RER C looks grim, but doesn't scare me - it seems very much like Paris's equivalent of the Nassau St Line. It's probably my favourite RER line. The only thing that gets me about it is the stupid way RER A doesn't stop at Pte Maillot, making it a double transfer to get to St-Germain-en-Laye.
Except for the bit which actually went to Auteuil ;-) I know, nobody rode it, but it certainly can't have helped that the line only went to Pont-Cardinet, necessitating a change even to get to St-Lazare. I kind of wish they'd run a Petit Ceinture service...
and the remote Garibaldi terminal.
Where was the Garibaldi terminal? I can think of a Boulevard Garibaldi in the 15th arrondisement, running from Cambronne to Sèvres-Lecourbe (both on the 6), but I don't know of any main line station in that area!
I just checked a few sites and realised that most of the section west of Orsay is 1.5kv DC. The switch over to 25kv AC is at the new St-Ouen station.
Incorporation to the RER C occured in 1988. But the new interchange to line 13 at Porte de Clichy didn't open until 1991. I don't know why there was such a delay but it must have been frustrating, having to go to Pereire to the 3, just to get to St-Lazare.
Aha! I see the line you mean. If MSN Maps is reliable (haha!), it looks like it wasn't possible to send it into Nord - the tracks are shown connecting to the PC only.
I just checked a few sites and realised that most of the section west of Orsay is 1.5kv DC. The switch over to 25kv AC is at the new St-Ouen station.
How do they manage to use two different voltages of catenary (going beyond the obvious answer of two pantographs)? Wouldn't the wrong pantograph be touching the wrong catenary at some moment?
Incorporation to the RER C occured in 1988. But the new interchange to line 13 at Porte de Clichy didn't open until 1991. I don't know why there was such a delay but it must have been frustrating, having to go to Pereire to the 3, just to get to St-Lazare.
There always seems to be a lot of Backside and Elbow syndrome going around when it comes to the RER, especially line C. How else could they end up with the interchange station in Boulainvilliers having two names...
Another random thing I've noticed is that there only seems to be one of those old services to nowhere that used to dog the railways in the Ile de France left - Aulnay-s/s-Bois to Bondy. I can't imagine anyone much rides it, despite it connecting to the RER to CDG.
MSN Maps... The connection from Garibaldi to Gare du Nord lines was outside Paris. I believe it's still used for goods as shown in the yahoo.fr maps. The reason why passenger service was cut short seems to be track capacity at Gare du Nord.
How do they manage to use two different voltages of catenary (going beyond the obvious answer of two pantographs)? Wouldn't the
wrong pantograph be touching the wrong catenary at some moment?
First they use the same panto for both voltages. The transition is usually done by either having a dead section or a dual voltage block in a station. The former is used near St-Ouen and many other places. The latter was used at Gare du Nord RER B when both RATP's DC only stock and SNCF AC only stock also used the station. I think it has been converted to a dead section system(north of Gare du Nord) once all running stock became dual voltage. Except for RER E which is 25kv all the way so far, all RER lines have sections in both 1.5kv DC and 25kv AC. The A and C have both DC only stock and dual stock, while B and D run dual stock only.
How else could they end up with the interchange station in Boulainvilliers having two names...
The original Boulainvilliers station predates line 9's La Muette. Maybe it has to do with it. And remember. There's an Auber-Opera-Havre Caumartin-Haussman-St Lazare-St Augustin in the system. They did it right when they combined Bd Massena into Biblioteque Mitterand, though.
Another random thing I've noticed is that there only seems to be one of those old services to nowhere that used to dog the railways in the Ile de France left - Aulnay-s/s-Bois to Bondy. I can't imagine anyone much rides it, despite it connecting to the RER to CDG.
Actually, the line had good ridership even though it's partially single tracked. It connected to RER B on one end and RER E on the other. Why past tense? Because it's currently closed for conversion to Light Rail. The remaining single track section will be double tracked and dual voltage trams a la Karlsruhe will run on them. A branch with street running is planned too. The current bus shuttle has been doubled in frequency, due to high ridership. Originally the frequency was the same as the trains they replaced.
There are also plans to convert PC RD into "Tram-train".
On the topic of RER's expansion across the old suburban networks, are there planned destinations in the west for line E?
Not in the near future but in the 2010s, they are supposed to connect with group II and part of group III of the suburban lines out of St-Lazare. That means Versaille RD and St-Nom-La-Beretche will be RER E and also Poissy would be handed over from RER A to allow more service by the A to Cergy. Nothing is firm, though.
One correction has to be made for my previous post. RER D has some DC only stock still running on its South-East part, mostly starting and terminating at G. de Lyon. I checked some French BBSs and sites today.
One more thing I found was that RER C service to Argenteuil would be cut off at Ermont, to allow a direct Ermont to St-Lazare via Argenteuil service. A new double track bridge over the Seine is being built to give much needed track capacity for that section. Current Argenteuil(C3) service will go to Montigny(C1) while the current C1 service will be extended to Pontoise.
Ouch! I'm too tired, I guess. Of course I meant "St-Nom-La-Bretèche".
The area does count, but even in London there are interesting differences. I find the Shenfield line, via such delightful places as Ilford and Romford to be completely non-threatening, despite the areas it goes through. On the other hand, Liverpool Street to Enfield Town was extremely nasty. I wouldn't like to do that one at night.
I was puzzled about that too, on my recent railfanning visit to Paris. I was quite surprised to find the RER scruffy and grafitti-ridden, while the (much older) Metro is so clean and smart.
Two points, I think. One is that not all of the RER is new construction - a lot of it was made up of existing suburban lines converted into RER by being linked together through the centre. So these lines were never "shiny new" in recent times. Secondly, the social structure of Paris has the poor people in awful public housing projects that are *outside* the city, in suburban municipalities, while those living in the city of Paris itself are mostly affluent. My impression is that there is far less commuting into Paris by professional-level people living (say) 20-50 miles out than there is into either New York or London. As a sweeping generalisation, the RER commuters are the poor.
I'm certainly looking forward to another brief visit this year where I may actually get some time to see the *insides* of a few museums!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming July 5th
That's probably right. When I was in Paris I went on both of the relatively new light rail lines - which run on circumferential routes, rather than the radial routes of the Metro and RER. The one on the west side (running southwards from La Defense) ran through pleasant, leafy suburbs, and was modestly full but with seats to spare. The one in the northeast running through the old "Red Belt", the working-class formerly communist suburbs, was the most jampacked public transport I have ever been on! The multiracial clientele were, in fact, being quite stoical, and everyone was being nice to each other, but it was insanely crowded.
Incidentally a third light rail line is planned, running across the south. Socioeconomically, I'd guess that would fall in between the other two.
I would call it a long span, as the area from 13th to 15th arrondissements is quite diverse. But yes, it would fall between the two. The 12th arrondissement in which I spent my childhood would fall in between as well.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
I explored some of that area when I first got to London. Sure, it's not what you'd call upscale, but you'll find far worse areas in just about any large U.S. city.
London being such a desirable place to live these days has indeed reduced the undesirable element quite a bit. I can think of far worse areas in other major UK cities than any that still exist in London.
There are some alarming parts of Birmingham where you walk along leafy streets, turn a corner and end up on a street with most of the houses boarded up and hypodermic needles on the ground. I can think of several such streets that were so bad they got demolished! (Having said all this, you'd really have to be looking for them to find streets like those - no tourist would end up anywhere near them). Even so, I am one of the greatest fans of Birmingham as a city and would highly recommend it as somewhere to take a city break.
The only tourist I know who might end up in a place like that is me.
You are not alone, Peter. After World War II, I loved to explore the poorer parts of London, including the docks, places with railway viaducts and places with tram lines. Near every mainline station there was a goods station. Those areas were not dangerous, but the atmosphere was always exciting and the three biggest docks were magnificent although badly damaged.
Sadly the docks have all gone, as have the trams and goods stations, but the passenger railways and viaducts were spared.
At least there's a new tram, the Croydon Tramlink of course. I rode its whole route (quite time-consuming given the different branches on the enstern end) and enjoyed it quite a bit.
In those days anywhere in London seemed safe to go.
I even went a few times from Villiers Street 'Underneath The Arches' of Charing Cross ML Station and out to the Strand !
The arches under Charing Cross station were inhabited by homeless people, but anyone could walk through there safely.
The lady used to give talks in Notting Hill Gate about some of the highways and byways of London and a couple of times after her presentation, I went with her and her husband to have supper at TC. The people who worked there in the evenings were anything but Gerrard’s Cross.
Try the "Ibis" motel chain (there are a few in London, the one in Euston being the most convenient, I think) - web address is "ibishotel.com". I'm sure you can get a reasonable rate. Secondly, try Holiday Inn - they also have a few centrally placed options (web address "holiday-inn.com").
After that, you may wish to be a little more adventurous and try for a B&B, and I would suggest one in Earl's Court - I think this is a nice little area, and Earl's Court Station is unique and interesting, not to mention it is direct from Heathrow on the Piccadilly Line. Just look on a London Tourist Board site for this info..
Although I live in Coventry, I do get down to London from time to time, and coincidentally I'm travelling to Holland on 11th August - I may come down a couple of days earlier to stay with a friend who lives in Wandsworth, which is a nice part of South London.
Finally, if you're in the Country for a month, you may wish to consider a trip to one of the other cities with underground railways - my favourite would be Glasgow, and you can get there pretty cheaply from Stansted to Prestwick by ryanair (www.ryanair.com). Both airports are directly accessible by train to their respective city centres.
Hope this helps.
Mark.
And thanks for the tip about the IBis motel chain.
Although it seems I wont be doing London as planed for July, I'll be using everybodys tips when I finally do get everything oriented.
Thanks all for the tips.
Aha! Nice to see another midlander here! (I'm variously in Birmingham and Leicester).
By the way, what do you think of the split of the Birmingham - Coventry Local?
(And if you don't mind a blatant plug... http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/railwestmids might interest you).
Further to my earlier messages, and by pure coincidence, I unearthed some info. about a hotel in Earl's Court where I stayed back in 2001:
Manor Hotel,
23, Nevern Place,
London,
SW5 9NR.
Tel.: +44 (20) 7370 6018
I paid £30 for a single for one night, and £75 for a shared double plus single for the second (other friends joined me). I know it's some time ago, but I don't think prices will have increased too much.
The hotel was okay - nothing palacial, but comfortable. Only just off Earl's Court Road, five mins. from tube, nice coffee shop on corner, many eateries around, and a supermarket on Cromwell Road (five mins.) which I think may have been 24 hrs. opening.
I'll send more info. if you're interested.
Mark.
The links provided earlier were for double with just a 45pound price p/n.
I'll make sure to hold this place in mind in case they maybe lowered the price.(like that ever happens :/)
So perhaps the IBIS is your best bet, and I have to say that the one in Euston is ideally suited if you're planning any trips North. Euston for Liverpool (Merseyrail Underground), Birmingham (Midland Metro) and Manchester (Metrolink) - I would say Glasgow, but promise not to mention it again (although I was one of the lucky people who rode on the Glasgow Subway before it was modernised, with it's little red Victorian trains and peeling paint). St. Pancras for Sheffield (Supertram) and now Nottingham (NET). King's Cross for Newcastle (Metro).
Much to my chagrin, the Midland Metro is the least interesting (and the one I'm closest to!) - I guess I'll have to move house after all.
Mark.
;-)
A (7) train on the Lexington?
A (W) train on the Second Av line?
A New Haven Line R44 E train.
Hope you liked em!
-Chris
Regards,
Jimmy
Thanks Brian.
-Chris
at the signal box right at the front of the Queens-bound train, in addition to the usual red signal, there were these two white lights in a horizontal alignment that were lit up. they were below the unlit yellow and green lights, and below the unlit "S" signal.
does anyone have any idea what they might indicate?
http://www.nycsubway.org/tech/signals/light.html For more info.
-Julian
-RJM
I thought the rulebook states that the T/O must contact the Control Center.
There is a home signal SB at East B'way which serves no other function than to keep trains out of the tube...
Red signifies stop and stay, and white signifies proceed. Caution/diverging route are shown via flashing signals, although I don't know the exact pattern.
-Julian
I hear ya bud, but I don't even have a quarter to spare of late.
Like Salaam, I'd like to see Angels Flight restored, but it ain't happening anytime soon.
Is it still operating or what happend to it ?
As soon as I had posted the question I. naturally :-) searched for the subject and found all I would need to know , including pictures. Thanks to all concerned for sharing !
Oh, and yeah, they used actual Radio Shack parts during the Winnebago conversions. That shop was pretty resourceful.
The Metro Gold Line Foothill Extension would run 24 miles, from Pasadena to Montclair in San Bernardino County. Plans call for the $1.3 billion light rail to reach Irwindale by 2009 and Montclair by 2014.
"There's a time for negotiation, and there's a time to say 'This is our position take it or leave it,' ' said county Supervisor Zev Yaroslavsky, chairman of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority board of directors.
At issue for the committee is AB 712, proposed state legislation authored by Assemblywoman Carol Liu, D-Pasadena. One provision of the bill would expand the Gold Line's governing board from five members to seven splitting four seats among the San Gabriel Valley cities along the route and giving two seats to MTA and one to the city of Los Angeles.
That balance of power did not sit well with Yaroslavsky or Supervisor Yvonne B. Burke, who argued that MTA's bigger priority is to build the Expo Line, a 17.3-mile light rail from downtown Los Angeles to Santa Monica.
Why does the San Gabriel Valley, including "the metropolis of Claremont' need another rail line right away since it is already served by Metrolink, Yaroslavsky asked.
"I don't have anything in my part of town,' said Yaroslavsky, whose Westside district the Expo Line would run through.
The San Gabriel Valley also has the Los Angeles-to-Pasadena Gold Line, the 13.7-mile first segment that opened in July. "I won't have the problem of opening the Expo Line and having (only) 11,000 people riding it,' Yaroslavsky said, a jab at the Pasadena rail system's lower-than-predicted usage.
If the cities along the Gold Line's Foothill extension Arcadia, Monrovia, Duarte, Irwindale, Azusa, Glendora, San Dimas, La Verne, Pomona, Claremont and Montclair want better representation, he said, the Gold Line Construction Authority's five-member board should be juggled, not enlarged.
Keep the seats for MTA, the San Gabriel Valley Council of Governments and the cities of Los Angeles and Pasadena, drop South Pasadena's representation and substitute another seat for the Foothill Extension cities, Yaroslavsky said during the meeting of the Executive Management and Audit Committee.
The MTA board of directors will consider the committee's recommendation during its June 24 meeting. The committee also decided that MTA will become the "designated recipient' of any federal funding the Montclair project receives, since the agency ultimately will be the extension's owner and operator.
The power struggle came to a head this month because AB 712 was to be heard Tuesday before the state Senate Transportation Committee. The Gold Line board of directors called a special meeting last Saturday to weigh in on Liu's bill.
The board adopted a resolution that the MTA should have no more than 20-percent representation the agency's current membership and that the Construction Authority retain the same power and autonomy to build the Montclair extension that it had to build the Pasadena Gold Line.
The Gold Line board also agreed Saturday that it be enlarged to seven members, giving full voting rights to two current nonvoting members.
Meanwhile, Tuesday's Senate hearing was postponed until June 29 because the chairman state Sen. Kevin Murray, D- Culver City wanted assurances that Gold Line advocates would not undermine efforts to secure federal funding for the Expo Line.
Murray is a staunch supporter of the Expo Line, which would travel through his district.
told you the east la line should have not been started first !
Anyway, here are the misc. Baltimore photos up through early May.
http://acm.jhu.edu/~sthurmovik/Railpics/05-15-04_BALTIMORE_STUFF/Thumbnails.html
Here are the NEC and Connecticut Photos
http://acm.jhu.edu/~sthurmovik/Railpics/05-30-04_AMY_TRIPS/Thumbnails.html
Be sure to check out back-of-the-train shots of the desicrated MORRIS interlocking on Amtrak and the rebuilt Greens Famrms interlocking on MNRR.
And here are the tower photos:
http://acm.jhu.edu/~sthurmovik/Railpics/Towers/-Thumbnails-05-30-04.html
And for the lazy out there here are some teaser pics:
A really nice shot of the still active UNION tower
A very springy photo of CSX action on the BT Sub
The old soldier Amtk 950 arrives in New Haven in Phaze III paint.
I don't know if all the kit on the Anchor bridges are transformers, switches or breakers.
Your pal,
Fred
in addition, why does the MTA spokesperson continue to refer to the confiscation of "film" in recent news articles? they fail to mention a specific plan for digital cameras, or are we the people not priveledged to know the details of their rules?
it really seems like they didn't think this through and are doing this just to get additional homeland security funds for their compliance.
As for camera phones, they'll proberly ban cell phones aswell, otherwise there gonna have people with cameras still. Then again, camera phones suck at photos anyways.
However, for the millions of people who prefer not to think too hard about things, the subways will "seem" safer, and those are millions of votes for whoever argues in favor of the ban.
First and foremost: Make sure you go to the bathroom at the ragged last moment before you leave your house. It would probably be the last time you go to the bathroom for four to five hours. Yeah, I know, you can hold it. So can I. But it is far more comfortable for us to hold it if we want to rather than if we have to. Besides, don't think you were the only one with designs on the bathroom at the end of the line. It's one of the least pleasant waits known.
- Eat something before you board the train. Try not to drink coffee. You may not be hungry now, but you will be an hour or two into the excursion with lunch another hour or two away. Bring a light, compact, neat snack with you on board the train for the same reason. Also, avoid coffee, because caffeine is a diuretic. Don't say I didn't warn you. It also helps to bring a bottle or two of water to drink a couple of hours into the trip. You may get thirsty.
- Get a good night's sleep before boarding the train. You will be participating in things not normally done on the subways, from riding equipment to places it (or you) has no business being. You will want to drink it all in. Secondly, if a one hour subway trip from one end of the line to the other makes you punchy afterward, imagine how spun around you will feel after having ridden the subway for upwards of eight hours with only a one-hour break. Do it drowsy, and you will be flapping your lips with your index finger after all is said and done.
(My phrase for ensuring you are prepared in such a manner is making sure you are "fed, watered, and walked" before you board.)
If you are going as a chaperone to your son or daughter, and have little or no interest in the matter at hand, please plan a full day of just sitting. Bring plenty of newspapers, books, knitting, or whatever. It must be just like jury duty to you, except with moving scenery. Please don't blame your kids.
In the end, these trips are well worth it. If you are well-prepared for what is in store, they are very enjoyable, and good value, even at the seemingly steep fare. Enjoy!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4217930,00.html
Some suicides seem to lock eyes with the operator of the incoming train. Others put black bags over their heads. There was a subway operator who was depressed and jumped in front of a colleague's train.
I wonder if there is any pattern to the suicides on our subway system? Poor health. Loss of job. Problems with mates. Mental illness. I also wonder if our system has done anything to address the problem?
No way to take your life, well with a train involved anyways. Not to meantion the other advantages. I dont see why NYCTA, doesnt take advantage of that, london has them on some areas, singapore has them in most stations, same with some other asian systems.
...I dont see why NYCTA, doesnt take advantage of that<<<
There are any number of reasons that this is impractical in the NYC subway. The number one reason is cost. Another reason, especially in the B division, equipment of different lengths.
Peace,
ANDEE
He had transferred to the D on a new pick to get away from the Eastern Division where his former QJ run had been shortened, picking out to Stillwell and the D for a 9-1/2 hour clear. "Phat City" as he called it, despite the bozos at Stillwell that he had to contend with. When the Eagle qwappeth, it was QUITE a pile and he was pleased. We joked about "JJ, RJ, QJ, dammit! No *BJ* in honor of ME." :)
That fateful morning, we walked out and boarded as usual, he and I joking as usual as we converted an arnine "B" into a "D" and why was it that they couldn't just give us a train already marked as a "D" on the adjacent track. Ben's attitude was "they do this JUST to phuck with ya, don't pay it no mind, gotta EARN your check here." The trip was uneventful as we plodded north over the bridge and hit Manhattan around 7AM.
As I stepped up after the 6th Avenue dash to get to my bottle caps, the train went BIE about halfway into 34th Street and I damned near ended up on the platform as I was JUST assuming the position when the train dumped. Obviously we weren't about to be opening up, so I stepped back figuring we got tripped by the ST and it would be a few seconds before I saw my jailbars, and I just wanted to take a look up and down the train to see that nobody got put on the floor. The jailbars were never to be. :(
I heard screams from the front of the train and tried to see what was going on, but the crowds gathering near the front of the train blocked my view. I saw some cops also start running towards the front of the train and realized, "this ain't good" and started walking up front myself after checking the cab and seeing that the air wasn't coming back up either. We were apparently going nowhere and I had at first thought it was a derailment.
As I got through the second car, a cop stopped me at the doors between lead and second and stopped me saying, "You don't want to go up there." Then I saw Ben outside his cab, pounding on the storm door in tears. In 16 years, he'd never had a leaper but today, he had his FIRST. And it DESTROYED him. :(
Ben ended up on switchman duty after the 12-9, but he was never the same. I only ran into him a couple of times after that morning, and he just WASN'T the same person anymore. All he could say to me was "There was this drunk standing against the pillar, nobody around him, everything was fine (back in those times LOTS of people leaned over the edge of the platform to see what train was coming in and it was SO commonplace, motormen didn't think twice about it) ... as I pulled in, this guy did a half-gainer RIGHT into my windshield and the phucker SMILED at me as he stared into my eyes. Wasn't anything *I* could do, WHY ME? What did *I* do to anybody?" :(
A couple of weeks later, Ben resigned. Never saw him again and he was the ONE person that I was REALLY tight with as a conductor. We read each other's mind, we made time, and he made GENTLE stops being an old arnine road warrior. When he heard I'd already gotten motors and was waiting to be called, he'd show me LOTS of the nuances and tricks of arnines ... "don't MAKE me come back there and yank a door for your lazy ass, boy." :)
It's real nice to hear that soothing music and messages like you hear subliminally in a K-Fart on the Muzak system are being applied to a subway. I doubt it'll make any difference. But my *BIG* wish is that the TA would ***DO*** something for their ***OWN*** who get caught up in someone else's suicide. The TA lost one of their BEST motormen in that incident, and they didn't do CHIT for Ben. And not ONLY didn't they do chit for Ben, they expected him to MOVE the traion and CONITNUE HIS PHUCKING RUN!!! NO counseling, just "reassignment" as punishment as though somehow it was BEN'S fault that some moron leaped in front of his train. And in the end, Ben was more phucked up than the person who leaped. The MTA destroyed HIS SOUL. :(
12-9's are SERIOUS STUFF ... except to management. And to THIS DAY, they ain't done CHIT for people who are the victims of 12-9's - the people IN THE CAB. :(
If you haven't as yet signed the anti-bus/rail photo ban petition at the above link, now is as good a time as any. And spread the word.
As of now, the signature count is 1111.
SUBWAY SAFARI: GREAT BRONX TRIP ALONG THE BROADWAY EL LINE," a walking and train tour that covers the geological features of the area heading south from Broadway and West 242nd Street. Meeting tomorrow at 10 a.m. at the West 242nd Street subway stop on the Nos. 1 or 9 train. Sponsored by the Bronx County Historical Society. Fee, $15, $10 for members. Information: (718) 881-8900.
Bush Plan Stymies N.O. Rail Line Idea
The gist of the story is that the plan in question would require 50%local funding of transit projects instead of getting 80% of their fudning from the feds. What caught my eye was this paragraph near the end:
"A House version of that legislation would provide Louisiana with $2.9 billion in highway money and about $308 million in transit money over six years. But it would include only $2.5 million for continued study of the light rail line in New Orleans."
Yikes! Highways get $2.9 billion and transit only gets $308 million? I have a lot of questions. What is the federal-local split with regard to highway funding? Does Louisiana have to shell out 50% for those projects as well? Just a portion of what the state is getting for highways could fund an airport light rail line.
Heh, it's too bad Huey P. Long isn't still here. Back in the 1930s the feds gave LSU money for dorms, but refused to fund a new football stadium. So Long had the university build a dorm with a 100-yard long courtyard and bleachers on the roof. I bet Huey could have also figured out how to build a rail line and make it technically count as a highway so the feds would fund it!
Mark
Mark
But no shock Bu$h is hooking up his boys at ExxonMobileTexacoChevronGulfPB..................
I remember the Schuylkill Valley Metro proposal called for an 80-20 federal-local split, which given the multibillion-dollar pricetag, was a big part of why the feds laughed in the faces of the folks who submitted the proposal. If I recall, the Roosevelt Boulevard Subway proposals (that every one ignores) called for a larger percentage of local funding but I can't remember what the numbers were.
Mark
But the fact that there were so many people transfering at 10:00 PM tells me that lots of people in New Orleans are transit-dependent, and expanding rail service, with both an airport light rail line and better rail service within the city's neighborhoods, would probably be a good idea.
Mark
Mark
And I thought Orlando neglected it's reason for existing.
I was in Orlando once. Years before there was any tourist attraction there at all. All that was there was a nice bucolic Naval Air Station.
: ) Elias
Anyway, I was jut in Orlando today, if it's the airstation right NE of downtown, it's not a huge new urbanist development. Baldwin park. They got great billboards, and it's beautiful. I can't believe I didn't get a chance to see it today. I'm always disappointed in how I never get my whole list done.
McCoy field was on the site of what's now Orlando International, which is why the latter's code is MCO.
From the Baldwin Park website, named after the lake it sits around, which is named after a Secretary of the Navy.
"The site that is now Baldwin Park has a long and proud history of United States military service. From 1940, throughout World War II, and until 1968, the site was an Army Air Corps and Air Force base. In 1968, that base became the Orlando Naval Training Center (ONTC), sort of a college campus for sailors. Over 650,000 Naval recruits received basic Training here before the ONTC was closed in 1999. Lake Baldwin and Baldwin Park take their names from former Under Secretary of the Navy, Robert H. B. Baldwin. Lakefront land has been donated for a commemorative Veterans Park planned for the northern shore of Lake Baldwin. "
Mark
At 10:30, leave Times Square for Queensboro Plaza. Cross from Track C-2 to Track G-2 and operate via Track G-2 to Ditmars Boulevard.
From Ditmars via the Broadway Line to City Hall Lower Level and Lunch.
From City Hall via the Broadway Line to 21st Street/Queensbridge, and relay.
From Queensbridge via the Sixth Avenue Line and the A Line to Rockaway Park, and rest stop.
From Rockaway Park, via the A Line to Jay Street, and via the F Line to 21st Street/Queensbridge and relay.
From Queensbridge the excursion train will operate to 34th Street/Broadway and relay.
From 34th Street via the Broadway Line to Queensboro Plaza and cross from Track G-2 to Track C-2.
Excursion train will proceed to Junction Boulevard and end.
Train lays up in Corona Yard.
NOTE: There is NO uptown R service at Cortlandt or City Hall stations due to G.O.
Have fun.
-Chris
Your pal,
Fred
-Chris
I prefer a more conservative approach and enjoy their Blimpie's Best sandwich. A good combination.
On the way back from Rockaway Park, can we get off at 34 street ? I need, and I am sure others, to get to Penn Sta.
thanks !
Be sure to ask early enough. What will be done is that an announcement will be made over the PA and verbally in the cars that don't have PA's, that all passengers wishing to disembark at 34th Street please be in a certain car. When the trains slows down, you'll be asked to line-up at a certain door in that car. When the train stops, either a half or a whole door of the three will be opened with a key. Everyone scampers out and waves goodbye..
A friend and I who are both coming into Penn with the LIRR will also want the stop, so I think BW will do it for us.
Othertimes, I go to a coffee shop or diner that's near by.
Its your choice. One trip, I was allowed to stay in a crew room and watch TV. Another time, I was allowed in the tower. A third time I was allowed to stay on the train (61st Woodside). However if they put the train in a yard you may have to sit on a bench on the platform and schlep the cooler for an hour..
Anyway......WELCOME ABOARD. It might be your first MOD, it won't be your last.
i hope i have enough time.
Adam
Ugh! I worked for those bastards in 1989-91 when they only had 3 stores in New York City. The only thing not run of the mill about them is their prices, which are outragous. You'll spend $11.00 for the same meal you can get elsewhere for $6.00.
However, there's a great hamburger joint (assuming it survived the post 9/11 climate down there) at Chambers/Church.
-Chris
I will be railfanning several scenic railways at Hershey Park tomorrow. Doubt I'll get any cab video because I don't want to attract too much attention :)
--Mark
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
I posted what the GO says. Listen to others at your own risk. Be guided accordingly.
-Chris
It would have been possible to have ALL 4 lines into the the reopened terminal, but only three were in:
The F, N and Q would be stationed at their newly reopened respective Culver, Sea Beach and West End platforms while the D continues to uses its West End platfrom which would be rebuilt (a temporary platform would be used).
But the TA sent the D on to the N's Sea Beach platform with the F and Q on their own tracks, with no N, why?
Because during the rebuild process the West End Lion continued to operate as normal, so the platform that it was using was NOT renovated.
NOW the other three platforms are finished, but the West End Platform had not yet been touched.
So... the (D) moved over to the (N) platform while the (D) platform takes its turn at being rebuilt.
The (N) train still terminates at Bay Parkway, because it has to terminate *somewhere* and Bay Parkway has access to the Coney Island Yards.
Later on when the WHOLE project is done then it will all be done.
(Does *that* make any sense to you?) : ) Elias
Doesn't the N terminate 3 stops south of there?
Regards,
Jimmy
N Crews change over at K/Hway Southbound.
Cheerfully withdrawn
David
I believe the way it is now was the plan all along. Since 2001, NYCT has made clear that the N will not return to Coney Island until 2005.
They aren't done. Of course the F platform is going to get wet if it rains.
The rest of the roof doesn't leak. That's an accomplishment!
Take a trip to CI and look up from the F platform. Then try to imagine a waterfall cascading down from that flat piece of roof.
Good the pictures in the design phase thatI saw made all the plats look covered. That uncovered part will be the only part of the plat that does not smell like urine in a year or two
URINE is the OFFICIAL SMELL of New York! If it weren't for that fresh "city scent," how could you tell you weren't in Joisey? And DON'T ask me (Glade, other products) what "fresh country scent" REALLY smells like. When I did schoolcar and caught my FIRST "bouquet du eau du Stillwell," guys at "the table" in CIY told me, "you'll get used to it, it smells like HOME." Heh.
It's the OFFICIAL State Smell though - the alternative though is more accurate. =)
All together now: slowly I turn, step by step...
Leave Corona Yard for Times Square at 9:15. Leave Times Square at 10:00 for Queensboro Plaza, cross to BMT and up to Astoria. Via 60th Street tube to Lexington Avenue and relay. Back to Queensboro Plaza and Flushing Line. Lunch drop off at Willets Point and Main Street. Train lays up at Corona Yard. After lunch, pick ups at Willets Point and Main; then to Times Square and end. Lay up location to be determined.
Chuck Greene
Use your "Retro"Card to ride the No. 7
Straphangers who ride the No. 7 line will be able to visit the past today when they get a chance to ride a vintage train as part of the subway's centennial celebration.
The train will be in service between Times Square/42nd Street and Main Street in Flushing Queens, from 10 a.m. to 1 p.m.
The post is the official newspaper of the centennial celebration.
The train is part of a series of "nostalgia rides" the MTA will have this year as part of the subterranean celebration. A listing of centennial events is availablt at www.mta.info.
Clemente Lisi
There was no advance notice to the public. In fact only the NY Pissed mentioned it (and that was a very small article). Must have something to do with their being the Official Newspaper of the Subway Centennial
Or it is just a gimmick and just a set of R62A's wrappped in colors and retro ads?
Your pal,
Fred
I will make sure everyone will love my videos (with mono sound) and photos too. I got it covered and will have them Saturday night.
I am skipping the monthly yawnfest on Sunday.
Was the train OOS when this pic was taken? If it was, I was right there with ya!
Answer your IMs, eh?
I do that all the damn time, and I don't get diddly squat comment from no one...so back off a sec here...my only hats are two MTA NYCT bus dept hats and a bunch of Yankees hats...
SAS
Don't hate the playa, hate the game...
I have worn Yankee hats while riding the Flushing. No one ever says a thing. It's not illegal to wear a Yankee hat on the 7 anyway... -_-
;-)
::whips out Zippo lighter::
Photo courtesy of David of Broadway
You should have introduced yourself. There have been tons of photos of David and I posted here, but we had no idea what you looked like.
Due to construction at 74-Broadway, all Manhattan-bound trains were forced to run express. When I first got on the line to seek the MoD consist, I did some actual railfanning on one of the expresses. I don't see the use of the timers when the train entered the 69th-Fisk area.
I'll have a recollection of today's events on my website soon enough.
Not knowing it was doing revenue runs, I continued about my normal business.
The MoD train passed by on the upper level. I thought nothing of it and continued what I was doing. I thought it was going to CI to take care of something or whatever.
I didn't get the memo about it actually being in service until afterwards.
The train left Main St (in service) shortly after 12:00PM to start its third and final round trip in service.
So two cars had A/C. On Friday only one of the tarter sauce cars had A/C working.
AARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe this is like the problem of there not being enough truck spaces in this country(another problem no one wants to solve) so when a trooper makes a truck leave it's underpass or exit ramp, they're in violation of federal rules. You can either be fined by the feds or the state, take your pick i guess.
-Alargule
-Chris
NO! Those were not old cars! they were R27s! Those were almost NEW back then. (Well, at least there were back in '66 when I took the (RR) to Whitehall Street to enter the Navy!)
: ) Elias
I have a brochure laying out this service change and others whic took place because of the swap. If anyone wants to see it, I'll bring it with me tomorrow.
The now-classic "Mad as Hell" full-color, four-page brochure, right?
--Randy B.
In May 1987, there were not enough R68 to give to the "N". During that time, only the "D" and "Q" were operating them. Also, the TA didn't start overhauling the R32s until mid 1988.
That was during the 1986 Manhattan Bridge closure which lasted for over 2 years. Unlike the last Manhattan Bridge closure which ended in February 2004, the TA decided to keep the "B" and "D" destinations and give them different colors as opposed to different letters. The orange "B" and "D" were the 6th Ave routes which operated from 34th St-Herald Sq to 168th St and 205th St respectively. The yellow "B" and "D" were Broadway BMT routes which operated from Astoria or Queensboro Plaza (the "B") or 57th St/7th Ave (the "D") to Coney Island via West End and Brighton Beach respectively.
The northern routes are exactly the same, it just didn't go past 34th St.
yellow B= W
yellow D= Q
-Broadway Buffer
Jimmy 8?)
Sure about that? Its not shown on the track map the only thing east of Queensboro Plaza is the swithes that go to the center track. And thats really north I don't see any turn around place but that.
-Broadway Buffer
Ironic we were discussing such a thread about old Jamaica Center service before the N/R terminal switch a few days ago. Look, we were discussing about late night shuttle service to Jamaica Center and now this.
Koi
All are welcome, just e-mail Mark that you are coming if you have yet to do so. If I get Mark's and John's permission, I will post the rules and other information for the day at some point between now and when I go to sleep tonight. That information will also be given out tomorrow morning when we meet up, along with the clues themselves (because we are figuring you might find those remotely useful tomorrow). Even if the complete rules are not posted tonight, I will post my cell phone number as a point of contact.
Meeting time/place: Tomorrow morning at 9 AM at Gate G in Union Station (near the Ladies' Room, same place as for the other trips we have done in DC)
Ending time/place: You will have to return to the same location in Union Station by 7 PM or contact someone so we know your whereabouts. The hunt is not to last until system closing at 3 AM Sunday morning.
There is a prize package for the winners but my understanding is that everyone will go home with something.
See you tomorrow!
You may have spoken too soon...I don't know if John is bringing enough for EVERYONE to go home with something....what I DO know is that everyone from the winning team WILL go home with something.
Mark
p.s.---sure go ahead and post the rules...if there's an last minute changes, I can address that in the morning.
Thanks,
Me
Anyway, without further ado:
SubTalk DC Scavenger Hunt
Saturday, June 19, 2004
Rules, Clues, and Other Useful Information
1. There are a total of 26 clues scattered throughout the MetroRail system. You have been given the clues separately from this handout along with instructions as to when you may view each clue. You will not pick up anything at any of the clue locations.
2. You must visit the clues in order. At each stop, obtain a rail to bus transfer to indicate the station and time you were there. Make sure that the station name is readable and that the time is correct. If not, try another machine (most mezzanines have more than one) or write the information on the transfer. Keep in mind that when the hunt ends, you will have had to have visited the stations in the correct order, so it is not in your interest to alter the time if it is not printed correctly by the machine.
3. You may use MetroRail, MetroBus, DASH, ART, CUE, Fairfax Connector, and Ride-On to travel between stations, or you may walk. You may not use any privately owned automobiles, taxicabs, bicycles, or other forms of transportation. You may not use a public bus in service for a company other than those stated above. Keep in mind that the $6 dollar one day pass is only good on MetroRail. In order to not pay the full bus fare, you may obtain a rail to bus transfer at a station other than the one you board the bus. When you are on board the bus, you may ask for a free bus to bus transfer which will be valid for up to two hours, sometimes longer. Keep in mind you must have all rail to bus transfers for grading at the end of the scavenger hunt, so be sure to pick up extras to use on the busses! You may call Metro’s Ride Guide to plan your route.
4. At least one clue is at or near a food stop that has a variety of food options. You should reach it around lunch time. Of course, you can opt not to eat at all or eat somewhere else than where is intended.
5. The Blue Line is closed east of Stadium-Armory this weekend due to work on the Largo Extension. No clue will take you to the Addison Road, Benning Road, or Capitol Heights stations, but the bus bridge is a legal travel option between stations. At the time that this document was printed, Metro had not announced any other trackwork projects resulting in either closures or schedule changes.
6. You must return to Gate G at Union Station by 7:00 PM or you must call Oren (number below) and inform him of your location by that time. Late teams will be penalized. The penalty will be less for a team that calls and arrives late than one that does not call at all. We simply do not want to be riding the Metro until 3 AM tomorrow morning!
7. Photography is legal on WMATA, but please use common sense! Do not use either flash or tripods. Do not photograph from a location or position that may endanger your safety or the safety of others, or a location that is off limits to passengers. Do not photograph at the Pentagon Station and cooperate if questioned by WMATA employees or transit police.
Thank you and have a great day!
Day of hunt contact information:
Oren’s cell phone: E-mail me (linked above) to get this number. You must be coming on the trip to get it!!! You can also get it before the groups split from Union Station, but then you won't be able to reach anyone prior to arrival at Union Station. My cell phone works on many underground parts of the MetroRail system so I am pretty much able to be contacted at any point during the day, though reception underground can be a bit spotty at times.
In summary:
Metro map t-shirts or SmarTrip t-shirts are GOOD
Navy blue WMATA maintenance shirts are BAD
Why make this request? It helps to detract attention from us. The last thing we need is for a charge that we are posing as transit employees on top of any stupid photography rules someone decides to randomly impose.
Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
See you tomorrow!
Provided the total number attending is no more then 20, then everyone will get a multi page copy of the 127 mile track schematic. Member of the winning teem will get two sets of car maps and the color version single sheet 82" X 24" 106 mile track schematic. I also am bringing the check plot rejects of the sheet 82" X 24" 106 mile track schematic that have some minor errors in them if any one wants one, and some extra car maps that I will sell to help recoup the costs of the printing of the other stuff.
John
P. S.
Bring rubber bands, I forgot to pick some up to put around the rolled up maps so you can take them home.
Any information you could give me would be very useful. My trip to Newark for the last few days leading up to the August 26th last day got torpedoed back then due to some nonsense up here. I'm waiting for that fantrip I was assured would be coming ('It isn't a big deal you missed the last day. They'll run fan trips...'). I'd like to know when this fantrip is going to happen. Or even if there's a snowball's chance that it could possibly happen. Unfortunately, I about 100% certain I'm 100% S. O. L. as far as Newark PCCs are concerned.
The reason why I'm asking when this 'upcoming fantrip' of sorts is/isn't happening is because the same set of circumstances which screwed me then is developing rapidly again and I want a few replies I can print out and submit as PROFF to get the B. S. shut down before it gets into full swing. ...Again...
Thanks,
Robert King
I guess the answer is 'no way' and I missed out but good. I will just have to try my best to make sure I don't miss out like that again in future.
-Robert King
The MBTA Web site now says the change has been postponed until the weekend of June 25-27. In that case I can't go on Friday evening, since I'll be driving a Seashore bus in the LaKermesse Parade in Biddeford, Maine that evening.
AEM7
Thanks.
Let's get some sort of Boston meet-up going so we can all railfan this thing.
AEM7
-Chris
I guess I wont be getting any pics tomorrow.
-Chris
Bob
I suspect that wherever it is, we are looking "Citybound", since the platform on the right seems to have a newsstand, and people would only buy papers on their way into the city, not on the way home.
There is no third rail, nor any trolley wire, I don't *think* they were using diesels back then, so I'd expect to see a Forney there somewhere.
Since the Brighton Lion north of Prospect Park was always subway or electric (once it was built, that is) this picture predates that by some little bit.
So yeah. I'd have to agree with the others: Franklin Avenue Lion, and I'll accept the idea of the Botanical Gardens too.
I'd not be overly concerned about the bridges: Bridges can come and go, and remember, when the Brighton was being built, most of the neighborhoods thereabouts had not been built yet either.
Elias
I don't expect you to necessarily pick all this out very easily, but the point is that the line was electric at the time of the picture.
wayne
A couple of these points require a little historical knowledge (but nothing really exotic) or current observation:
* My first hint was that it looks like a current line, and yes, the line I had in mind was Franklin. (NOTE: "looks like")
* The original Brighton Beach Line was always an open cut from day one from south of Park Place to south of Church Avenue. The rest of the original line was on the surface.
* It was an open cut because the area was relatively developed.
* There is trolley wire in this picture (as I mentioned--not obvious), so this picture is between 1899 and 1907.
* There is a newsstand/ticket office on the right-hand platform only and also a canopy of the stairway and front of platform.
*Looking into the distance are relatively frequent bridges, stone-lined, indicating a more-developed area. The nearest bridge crosses the right-of-way at an angle of lower-left to upper-right, and though less evident, the next bridge crosses from upper-left to lower right.
Now do we have any more ideas?
A couple of these points require a little historical knowledge (but nothing really exotic) or current observation:
* My first hint was that it looks like a current line, and yes, the line I had in mind was Franklin. (NOTE: "looks like")
* The original Brighton Beach Line was always an open cut from day one from south of Park Place to south of Church Avenue. The rest of the original line was on the surface.
* It was an open cut because the area was relatively developed.
* There is trolley wire in this picture (as I mentioned--not obvious), so this picture is between 1899 and 1907.
* There is a newsstand/ticket office on the right-hand platform only and also a canopy of the stairway and front of platform.
*Looking into the distance are relatively frequent bridges, stone-lined, indicating a more-developed area. The nearest bridge crosses the right-of-way at an angle of lower-left to upper-right, and though less evident, the next bridge crosses from upper-left to lower right.
Now do we have any more ideas?
Those are my guesses: Canarsie, east of Rockaway Parkway, somewhere around West End and Culver at 9th Ave, or a VERY rare possibility between Fresh Pond Rd and Metro on the M (although I really don't think that could be it).
* My first hint was that it looks like a current line, and yes, the line I had in mind was Franklin. (NOTE: "looks like")
The entire open cut portion of the Brighton looked pretty much like the Franklin Line originally
* The original Brighton Beach Line was always an open cut from day one from south of Park Place to south of Church Avenue. The rest of the original line was on the surface.
It IS the Brighton Beach Line, somewhere in this area.
* It was an open cut because the area was relatively developed.
Must be in an old community
* There is trolley wire in this picture (as I mentioned--not obvious), so this picture is between 1899 and 1907.
Another hint it's the Brighton. Other lines mentioned had trolley wire much later.
* There is a newsstand/ticket office on the right-hand platform only and also a canopy of the stairway and front of platform.
It's city-bound (looking north)
*Looking into the distance are relatively frequent bridges, stone-lined, indicating a more-developed area. The nearest bridge crosses the right-of-way at an angle of lower-left to upper-right, and though less evident, the next bridge crosses from upper-left to lower right.
Put it together and we get...?
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Thanks.
Regards,
Jimmy
That said, time to crack open Mt Vernon Sq(-UDC)-7th St/Convention Center
Location: 7th & M Streets, NW, Washington DC
Opening: 5/11/91
Routes: Green/Yellow
Platform: Island
Ceiling: Vaulted arch, broader coffers than the usual "waffle" ceilings seen in earlier construction.
Alignment: Underground
Additional features: Yellow Line terminal, no need for "next train destination" signs at the north end since the ONLY train going past here is a Green Line. The Yellow Line trains park on the pocket track north of here to reverse direction and lay over, similar to the maneuver pulled at Stadium-Armory for anything terminating there. However, THIS one's pocket track begins immediately north of the station.
Yet again, a station in a dual line corridor that saw service for only one line when it opened. The difference in this case is the fact that the use as a regular station was succeeded by use as both a transfer AND terminal, in less than a year. The December opening of the line to Waterfront, Navy Yard, and Anacostia opened a new Green Line segment (which was completed nine years later), thus FINALLY bringing that color to service. Before this was opened, Yellow trains terminated at Gallery Pl-Chinatown. Once this was opened, the Yellow terminated at the GREEN LINE stop of U Street-Cardozo, with all service running to Huntington. Once Anacostia opened, this station was used for Yellow Line turnacks. And it's been that way ever since. Next to Orange, YELLOW has had the least amount of line tailoring done in the last thirteen years. Then again, Orange hasn't been touched since 1979, but that's for another spotlight. Until the Green Line segment between U Street and Fort Totten was completed, Yellow Line trains would end their runs at U Street-Cardozo a la the May-December 1991 service pattern, but only late at night. Since then, though, never has a Yellow Line train passed this point. However, I think Yellow is the only line to have this stop programmed as a terminal, even though Blue and Green can also pull off the trick. The station itself has undergone renaming at least twice. The 1976 Red Line in operation ONLY maps listed this as Federal City College. Somewhere between then and opening day for this stop, WMATA decided to change the name to Mt Vernon Sq-UDC. I'm not sure if between 1976 and 1991, WMATA had settled on simply "Mt Vernon Sq", and later added the "UDC" suffix, or what ELSE they may have planned. I'm not sure exactly when the campus of University of DC closed in this area, but 2001, I believe, is when WMATA began showing this as Mt Vernon Sq-7th St/Convention Center. The slash has got to go. Wth it there, it seems as if breaking it down has the name in a three-part configuration. If the 7th Street part of the name refers to the new Convention Center itself (to avoid confusion with the old Washington Convention Center), the forward slash isn't needed. It otherwise gives off the appearance that the station is partly named for 7th Street itself... the entire LINE at this point runs under 7th Street, between Shaw-Howard Univ and L'Enfant Plaza. M Street would have been a better choice n hat case; you typically ad in street names with train routes for intersecting streets, not for the street the line immediately parallels, even if it crosses it later. If it diverges, then it's okay at the diverging point. Mt Vernon Sq is NOT the diverging point, though. And Mt Vernon Square itself is a bit of a walk from this station, due south. This also ranks among some of the grimier Metro stations, thanks to groundwater penetration here. It's not as dark in appearance as Foggy Bottom-GWU, but you can see the trails the dripping water leaves on the concrete wall. Lest I forget, this is another of Metro's stations that is transfer by circumstance. If the Yellow Line went any further north, the transfer would be at Shaw-Howard Univ (and probably another at Georgia Ave-Petworth, assuming the line went THAT far north, probably to a terminal in Brightwood). Howeer, it doesn't, and if you are on a northbound Yellow when it gets here, off you go. And onto the Green Line if you have to go further north. Southbound, you have between here and L'Enfant Plaza to transfer between Yellow and Green.
*** for Mt Vernon Sq-7th St/Convention Center. Not too outrageously interesting, but not that boring either. Needs some water sealing done, assuming it hasn't been done since last November.
Destination Codes for Mount Vernon Square E01
28 Yellow
38 Blue
46 Green
91 Pocket (Non Revenue)
John
There has been a Blue Line code in the system sense WMATA started doing the blue line reconfiguration on Independence Days.
We already know that Dullas Airport (M11) is 34 and Dullas Yard (M99) is 93 on the Silver Line. The $64.00 question is what destination codes are going to be used on the Silver Line at the various turn backs locations and the Ashburn terminal at Middletown Road (M14).
The unused codes are 51-53, 57, 59, 61-64, 68-70
John
I figure the others unused are meant for extensions of existing lines.
WMATA: Send Blue Line SOUTH, and give Lorton a pocket and Woodbrisge a crossover
JUNE 18TH, 2004
New York Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver has signed off on a plan that will give the South Ferry subway terminal in Lower Manhattan a $400 million makeover.
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority had been seeking the funds for improvements to the station since the attacks of 9/11 closed the terminal, as well as two other subway stations, for a year following the attacks.
Silver agreed to the renovation plan after the MTA agreed to spend $15 million for the revitalization of Battery Park. That project will add bike paths and a new playground.
The South Ferry station is a hub for commuters who travel to Lower Manhattan using the Staten Island ferry. Under the new plan, the station will get new tracks and additional exits. The MTA says the improvements will shave five minutes off the commute for straphangers.
"The MTA funds really will make a big difference to the South Ferry station below the surface, and also above the ground," said Mayor Michael Bloomberg.
The project is being paid for in part by federal 9/11 rebuilding funds.
It's scheduled to be completed by 2007.
Any thoughts regarding this?
But, we railfans will miss the unique operation.
That is NOT going to happen come hell or high water, or any thing else either.
It is DEAD! So forgetaboutit.
Elias
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
One problem: the examples that you gave don't involve relaying trains as those terminals have crews changing ends in the station.
To have an example such as yours implemented, it would leave zero room for error. Nobody in management likes to recite the first three letters in the TA alphabet: AB_D.
The current South Ferry loop can handle at least 30 tph, as is. Don't believe me? Stand at the signal near the back of the platform and time the red aspect.
It's possible that they've changed since I last checked. Which would be a shame, since those trains were crush loaded then. Maybe they're gradually reducing service, pick by pick, so we don't get suddenly dumped with 5-minute headways when the new South Ferry opens.
But, we railfans will miss the unique operation.
Here's the consist as I saw it.
F|9306-6609-6239-5760-9069-9068-9010-9011-9016-9017|M
The last 5 cars are painted in older schemes. The newest of these "old scheme" cars is 9068, which is painted green. That's right, 9068 can now be called, "The Green Redbird." Of course, I had my camera with me and took some pictures, and heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere they are!
There are 6 of them.
I also have photos from today's in-service excursion. Those photos, and the photos from the MOD Trip will be posted on Monday.
See you tomorrow!
That is NOT going to happen come hell or high water, or any thing else either.
It is DEAD! So forgetaboutit.
Elias
Please confirm that you read this by e-mailing me and tell me if it sounds OK (primarily Dylan, I know Mark is OK with it). Thanks.
See you in about 14.5 hours!
Oren
Reference was made to 9306 as a blue car. One passenger interviewed remembered it as the "Worlds Fair" car. Another passenger, who was retired from the MTA planning dept. remebered the "ugly!" green paint job that one car received.
Koi
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/204245p-176291c.html
But they didn't get to see the lower level of City Hall or run out to the Rockaways :)
The third guy, a guy in a business suit, ends the commercial off by asking "is this the express?"
The station is definitely Hoyt, though the "HOYT" tiles on the walls were covered over with white...but the light green tileband is EASILY noticable.
wayne
-Broadway Buffer
That's exactly what they do in London. The Waterloo & City line is closed evenings and Sundays, so it's the one which shows up in movies etc... the unfortunate result was that I fell about laughing when it was referred to as the District Line in Sliding Doors - the train's both the wrong size and the wrong colour!
Ooops, I meant "their own track and platform...".
The "local" trackwall is in better shape than the "express" trackwall, and since the local track is the track that will remain serviceable, that's the direction they would be pointing in to film anyway. You be surprised what movie companies can do to "spruce" things up. They spend millions to create entire sets, so some missing tiles are drops of water in a bucket for them, especially when they don't have to create an entire set.
It all depends on what they are doing for the movie. At least it will be another option for sure.
And also, in Jurassic Park, I believe it was The Lost World, they have one of beginning seens on an R-44 or an R-46, I can't remember exactly, but I do remember that the LCD sign was turned off. What was the point of doing this?
Wouldn't it in both cases look more authentic to have had the signs uncovered and the LCD sign on with a random letter?
-Broadway Buffer
Something must have been going on or expected in order to warrant so many police. It can't have been routine.
I've noticed a pretty heavy police presence all over the amusement area since Memorial Day. Part of it might be crowd control as well as establishing that Coney is a safe place to be.
It's not unlawful to take pictures.
Just ask them to get out of the way because they are spoiling the picture.
Elias
BTW, it's summer and all ot the druggies from Burlco are riding the RiverLINE to 36th st or WRTC to get their drugs at Camden's better open-air supermarkets. That's one market the line has captured!
4:20 dude.
wayne
Oh, I don't care what that says - I'm saying no pictures.
And that's a wrap. Who gives a flying crap about the rule of law when we have *TERRORISTS* out there?
Well of course - who would bother to report that they took photos and no one bothered them? A thread like that wouldn't go anywhere.
Your pal,
Fred
So, anyone who can make it this is a PERFECT time to go to Strassburg and carch some rare photo ops on the Harrisburg Line.
If anyone has it, or knows where I could find it I would greatly appreciate it. If I can get a even slightly decent scan of a reasonable size, I could adjust in Photoshop and print the size I need. My e-mail address is: cshaffer18@yahoo.com Thanks.
Chris
Photos, anyone?
The huge building on the Queens bound side still has last I saw, boarded up windows, or was that the small one next to it, bah I forgot now. :P
Other then the windows and walls, thats basically it from what I saw, I dont really travel out of 74th, just pass it, so I dont really know much of the lower portion(Rooseavelt Ave Station and the fare area).
As for the transfer, it has already been set-up. The two existing escalators within the 'tube' will be closed permanently and most likely dismantled. Get your photos, now.
No No NO... They will NOT be dismantled. They will be taken over by the MONSTERS, and will provide a direct connection to (with apprpriate music and narration by Rod Sterling) 76th Street!
de-doo de-doo dee-doooo
No need to. The escalators will be closed for a short time over the summer (or maybe towards the fall) while the structure that they are part of is replaced. The current structure (which one person compared in appearance to that of a caterpillar) will be replaced by something resembling what the IRT would have built (red rood, green walls, windows, etc.).
My journey started out by boarding the B83 bus to Livonia-Pennsylvania, and then took the 3 train to Penn-Station. I JUST MISSED by seconds the 11:58 NEC train, and so I had to wait 36 minutes for the next train to Trenton. (This line, which had been in the past been almost all-Arrows, now has about a 2-1 mix of Arrows and Comet push-pulls (Comet 3 and later), as I saw several NEC push-pull trains, one 8 cars in length, and 2 11 cars in length (all pulled by ALP46s, more on that later).
I arrived in Trenton at around 2 PM, and just missed by a minute or two the RiverLINE train to Camden. I decided there to wait for the next one, as that would come before the next R7 train, and it would be $5.15 cheaper than taking the R7. I got on 3518, and this LRT had some jerking and “pinging” in the undercarriage, and momentarily experienced problems at Cinnaminson, but arrived at Walter Rand Transit Center on time. This turned out to be a good thing, because the 410 to Philadelphia was boarding. This was a D4000 bus, and it had a wheelchair passenger on it, reducing the available seats to 43 (from the usual 49). The ride was good across the Ben Franklin Bridge, until it got onto Market Street (a wheelchair protest—damn Street, not the street, the mayor, that is—was wrapping up, making Market Street a mess! I got off the bus at 11 Street (because the buses were detouring), and got on the MFL.
As you Philly people already know, these seats are no good on the MFL, as they are always going flat, and mine on 1108 was also! I only rode it to 30 Street, as I was looking to take the 10 trolley. To my initial dismay, I found out it was busstituted because of construction on the trolley tracks near Callowhill Depot. Thus, I had to take the 13 one stop to Drexel University (which seemed a lot like NYU in terms of its campus structure), where Route 10 buses were waiting outside. I was on an EZ Neoplan, but most of the buses were EB Neos, and to my shock and dismay, I watched a DK go by (3110—oh, how I wish I were on that bus)! The route was 100% Neoplans, and they probably will stay until September, when the 10 becomes trolley again. My Neoplan was slow, and as I have been told by others off the board and saw firsthand, these buses are extremely cut down, although it did have some speed down Malvern Avenue. I rode this bus to the last stop, and then I got on the 65 (which had a stop moved, which I found out in the nick of time). This ride was very enjoyable, but too short it seemed, to Upper Darby.
At Upper Darby (69 Street Terminal), my original plan was to ride the 101 to Media, but then when I looked at my watch, I realized I would have to change plans. At Drexel Hill Junction, the driver told me to get off and take the 102 instead to Clifton-Aldan, which I did, so that I would get the R3 at Clifton-Aldan.
As far as SEPTA fares, at least regional rail fares for one ride is capped at $7.00. The R3 ride was good to Market East, although I did get jumpy when I noticed how far below the ground was to my right just after Clifton-Aldan. At Market East, I changed to get the R7 to Trenton. (IMO, now that I have seen all three Center City stations, I believe Market East is the best in design!) Both cars I was on Regional Rail were Silverliner II cars, 221 on the R3 and 9005 on the R7, and the seats do seem a little solid and flat after 40+ years in service.
I got to Trenton on time, and there I got the NEC train, an express to NYC (no stops between Metropark and Newark Liberty Airport). Before I got to Trenton, however, I noticed 2 NJT ALP46 locomotives (4619 and 4628) pulling Amtrak trains, both 11 cars in length. I knew NJT equipment was good, but I never realized firsthand HOW GOOD the ALP46s are. My train to NYC-Penn was once again an Arrow III, but I was in single car 1306. This was uneventful, except for caternary issues at Metropark.
My trip ended by taking the M4 two blocks over to 5 Avenue, and then the Command BM2 bus home.
8000 NYCT B83
1476 3 Train
1363 NEC S
3518 RiverLINE
8013 NJT 410
1108 MFL
9002 SEPTA 13
3428 SEPTA 10
102 SEPTA 101
117 SEPTA 102
221 SEPTA R3
9005 SEPTA R7
1306 NEC N/B
5029 NYCT M4
4955 Command BM2
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
P.S. The buses are mentioned for continuity purposes.
I'm trying to see what I want to do for tomorrow, I'll proberly railfan the R7 to 30th for the MFL back and forth.
Or try and plan some other destination, sometimes it gets boring when you goto the same place over and over doing the same thing over and over. :/
And just IMHO, but I prefer 30th St Station over Market East. ME feels cheap and '80ish, while 30th St Station almost exudes history from it's limestone facades. Sitting on the platform during rush hour you can almost imagine what it must have looked like 30-40 years ago, 12 car MP54 trains pulling into the station crammed with commuters heading home to Manayunk or the main line. Of course I usually think of this when a single car R6 Cynwyd train is sitting on the platform, only half full for it's slow trip to the City Line.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Ouch! Yes, 33 years ago I watched 14-car MP54 Wilmington Locals leaving 30th Street Station during afternoon rush hour.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Amtrak uses NJT ALP46's on Clockers.
Beats me
Damn! How did I not hear about this???
Beats me
How about that someone was YOU John. Seems you neglected to read the 'fine print' on the menu that stated something to the effect that 'all orders will be charged dinner rates of $8'. John, that means in layman terms that even though your choice was listed at $6, it would've shown up on the bill as $8.
Uh, I think you owe some people an apology...
It's probably cat anyhow.
It seems like counterterrorism needs to be more effective in places besides the subway first, then we can worry about proposed photo bans. I would also like to state for the record that I have spent longer standing outside with my car at National Airport, which is considered to be one of the most heavily surveilenced airports in the nation and should be far more secure than Dulles. Go figure...
AND today, we have way too many people with shellphones where that luxury didn't exist years ago for a car to drop someone off, go somewhere else and wait for the phonecall of "I'm OK" or "I'm NOT" and then come back, to a pickup and move along. Like I said, I *sympathize* but technology has eliminated the issue ... REALLY important adminiswigs do NOT carry beepers or shellphones - they have someone who does it FOR them. Such transistorized bling-bling makes me laugh. I *don't* have a shellphone (though I have someone who does) and no pager. Means I'm too important to be disturbed, other than emotionally. :)
So like I said, I can *understand* the issue, and agreed, not terrorism (although DHS *has* put a major emphasis on concern) ... the TERRORIST issue is someone driving up fast and within five seconds, *BLAMMO!* ... THAT is what a terrorist would do with a "loading zone" ... if someone's SITTING there, a terrorist would NOT do that. The LONGER they sit, the more likely they are to be "noticed" and for terrorists, boom-boom as quick as possible to get to those juicy virgins. :)
SOOOOOOooooooo ... if someone's BLOCKING a "loading zone" that means that a terrorist has to keep driving around the block looking for an opening. (grin) STAY AS LONG AS YOU'D LIKE *should* be the proper "safety dance." Heh.
Which could mean that the SCA types constantly babbling on their cell phones on the LIRR aren't actually top executives, but more like eager underlings. Explains a lot.
It is also the officer's job to enforce other rules in effect in the drop off area. I am almost sure that photography and videotaping is not permitted in that area.
Or do you enjoy waiting in long lines just to get to the terminal? That's what the officer was trying to prevent.
I can't imagine why photography would be prohibited at an airport loading zone. I certainly wouldn't be willing to assume that it is.
He wasn't consulting a map. The person driving the car got out, collected baggage or whatever and flew away on an airplane.
He may, mayhap saying good bye, or helping with a bag or something, but then had to adjust the seat and mirrors before he could drive away. This is what he meant by "getting situated."
All that was required was a friendly wave and a nod to the officer, and to get into the car. The officer's job was done at this point and he was pleased that the space would become available for the next drop off. You culd have adjusted your seat and mirrors and the officer would have understood this.
When I am dropped at the Bismarck airport, my driver is gone just as soon as I close the trunk, but more often we will drive into the parking area, and both of us would walk to the terminal. But then the flow of traffic at the Bismarck Airport is not so overwhelming.
When my parents drop me at ABE, they let me off at the door, and then go and park the car and return to the terminal to visit.
Speeking of visits, I WILL BE IN NYC for one of the JULY MODs, and will have to send in a reservation soon!
Elias
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
One problem: the examples that you gave don't involve relaying trains as those terminals have crews changing ends in the station.
To have an example such as yours implemented, it would leave zero room for error. Nobody in management likes to recite the first three letters in the TA alphabet: AB_D.
The current South Ferry loop can handle at least 30 tph, as is. Don't believe me? Stand at the signal near the back of the platform and time the red aspect.
It's possible that they've changed since I last checked. Which would be a shame, since those trains were crush loaded then. Maybe they're gradually reducing service, pick by pick, so we don't get suddenly dumped with 5-minute headways when the new South Ferry opens.
But I do have a question for anyone who knows this. I heard someone say that Pacific St plat where the D/M/N/R come in is going to be renamed Atlantic Ave so that it will be the same as the Q/B and IRT. Is that true, because it happened with Broadway Junction, so it would make sense to do it at Atlantic also. Anyone know whats going to happen?
-Broadway Buffer
Regards,
Jimmy
I figure as long as the Pacific St. name is in there somewhere people won't confuse the 4 Av platform with the Brighton platform.
-Broadway Buffer
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=726634
Mark. :-)
Since the plan hasn't been released yet, nobody knows what will be in it except those developing the plan, and even they don't know because anything they propose can be knocked out of it by people higher up...so, as always, wait and see. That said, I know of no plan to have a "layover yard" for R trains, unless what is meant is an expansion of the 38th Street Yard due to the Second Avenue Subway -- that's been proposed.
David
At the very least, that would clear up the 4th Avenue express track on weekends.
I'm not suggesting that R trains go up to the Bronx. I'm suggesting that, when an R train is currently scheduled to be removed from service in Brooklyn on Friday evening, it instead become a D train. (Only two rollsigns need to be changed, assuming the R's usual R-46's.) That means there's now an extra D train somewhere on the line, so put one train in the Bronx into the yard. Or, simpler still, do the same, but at the CIY end, either with a D or with an N.
Come Monday morning, reverse the process.
Again several problems with that. If the R line cars are used all day and then switched into other lines over night when do you maintain them? Also, what happens to the D line cars? 10 D trains run all night. Where do you put them? Where do you store another 80 cars?
The other problems are that the Concourse Cars (in your example) do not accumulate mileage as rapidly and so Scheduled maintenance is not performed as frequently, making the cars perform more poorly and far less economically. Finally, you have the problem of crew unfamiliarity with a foreign fleet. Those who operate the R-68s might have trouble switching to R-46 or R-32 equipment. If you think I'm exaggerating, perhaps some of the T/Os here will speak to the issue of picking a job based on their preference for the equipment on a particular line.
That is true. There are quite a few T/O's and C/R's who won't work a specific line because of their problems in properly maintaining control of the equipment. My personal dislikes are the 143 and the 68A. I'll work those types of equipment if need be, but fortunately I don't see them very often.
I'm not suggesting that this be done every night. Overnight, express tracks are largely dispensable. I'm suggesting that this be done over the weekend. Cars on the R can be inspected overnight, or they can be inspected next weekend. (A car that's running on the R this Friday may well be running on the F, G, or V next Friday.) And CCYD isn't full all weekend. If you're referring specifically to the nights during the weekend, either put those cars back on the 4th Avenue express or lay up a few cars on the CPW express. (Contrary to what Concourse line riders may suggest, their 3 minutes isn't worth more than anybody else's 10+ minutes. NYCT has a general late night policy of running two local services in preference to one local and one express, and while there are places where it might make sense to consider waiving the policy, CPW is not among them.)
I'm assuming that an R crew would stay with its train all weekend. Perhaps it would be better to put the cars on the N, then, which has a similar route to the R.
Keeping the N express all the way to 59th would help, either by simply making operations smoother or by allowing the D to run local in Brooklyn and stop at DeKalb on weekends.
The D still can stop at Dekalb without a merge if the N goes local anyway.
2 express and one local on weekends? Should be reversed.
If the D and N both stop at DeKalb, then three services (DNQ) have to merge into the same track there. If the D stops at DeKalb but the N doesn't, and both run express on 4th Avenue, then the D encounters the slow WD's coming into Pacific. If the D stops at DeKalb and runs local while the N runs express, all is fine at DeKalb and Pacific, but there's a three-way merge at 36th. Clear out the express track south of 36th and the three-way merge goes away.
I agree that, in most cases (in B Division territory), three services should be broken down into two local and one express on weekends. Certainly that's what's been done on 4th Avenue in the past -- even before the 2001 bridge flip, the N ran express on 4th Avenue on weekdays but local on weekends. I don't know for sure if ridership patterns dictate an exception in this case -- especially with a transfer point at one of the local stations. But I think it would be most useful for those two services to be the D and R rather than the N and R, both to provide one service on each of the major Manhattan trunks to local passengers and to provide easy transfers to Brighton passengers bound to 6th Avenue.
The 68/68a need a backrest.
For me, I will definitely NOT touch an L-line R143 when it becomes ATO. I don't mind taking the blame as long as I remain in control. I don't need some computer sending me down to Livingston when I can easily do that myself. Anyway, it'll be all of the junior T/O's that'll be working ATO on the L line (more junior than you). It'll have much less seniority than the weekend OPTO G. I mean, 8 car OPTO (essentially) through Bushwick and East New York with 5 trips? I can see the scenario in the Pick Office right now: "Ah yes, Mr. Soandso, we have 20 jobs left and all of them are on the L on late PM's. Which one would you like?"
In regards to holding the controller, there's a trick to it that won't hurt your hand (or arm) at all. You simply twist the T-handle to the right and let the controller rest on your thumb rather than have a Vulcan death-grip on it. That and you lower the T/O seat a little and you'll find the controller to be a lot more comfortable to deal with.
Hey Vulcan death grip was my old line. And I did get used to it but "the pain, oh the pain."
BTW the weekend OPTO is not a total rookie line anymore.
And what color grafitti would you like on your train tomorrow morning.???
Elias
nope... it runs out of Jamaica.
And when this new yard is built does this mean the R can go back to Astoria?
No it doesn't, because in that case the Astoria Line will have no late night service, because the R terminates at 36 St, Bklyn during late nights. Plus, there is no use for the R going back to Astoria. The N has been serving it well for many years now, and there is no use in needlessly changing it. Plus, you have to consider that the Sunnyside Yard was proposed. Unfortunately, thats really not saying much. LOL!!!
: ) Broadway Buffer
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Oh and have fun at the National University of Ireland!
Thanks for the old name, I will remember that also! (When did it become Connolly though?)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
1966, but the use of the old name continues in speech (less common is the persistence of calling Pearce station Westland Row* and I've never heard anyone call Heuston Kingsbridge, probably because being a Royalist isn't the most popular thing in the Republic). Just imagine if someone tried to rename New York Penn or London Paddington - no-one would use the new name.
Incidentally, AFAIK, Dublin's other station, Harcourt Street, didn't have its name changed before it was abandoned.
* although it does indeed occur quite a bit - see this hotel website, Trinity College's website, the Dublin Bus Company (look at the Special City Centre Shoppers' Fares section for their railway station confusion)
Incidentally, AFAIK, Dublin's other station, Harcourt Street, didn't have its name changed before it was abandoned
That is because the Harcourt Street Line didn’t survive until 1966, having been abruptly abandoned in 1958, all to save the grand total of IR£65,000 (back then). I shudder to think what its current conversion to Luas Line B has cost (only going as far south as Sandyford too), not to mention how troublesome the new street-running trackage along Harcourt Street onto St. Stephen’s Green West will make daily operations. The Harcourt Street Station building still stands, but it looks odd to have tracks alongside it that ought to be going into it.
Talk about penny-pinching.
I shudder to think what its current conversion to Luas Line B has cost (only going as far south as Sandyford too), not to mention how troublesome the new street-running trackage along Harcourt Street onto St. Stephen’s Green West will make daily operations.
It's also quite amusing how the two Luas lines won't connect (I'll refrain from making the jokes that will be heard on the other side of the Irish Sea)! Apparently there's some scheme to create tunnels across the City Centre, but I don't get how that will work with the water table and all...
On the subject of where the line went, I'm aware the only service running by the end was Harcourt St - Bray, but did trains ever run beyond Bray (perhaps on the line out of Pearse/Westland Row, or maybe an independent alignment) and were there any branches?
It's also quite amusing how the two Luas lines won't connect (I'll refrain from making the jokes that will be heard on the other side of the Irish Sea)!
Oh, there’s nothing but noise about that, not to mention how the LRVs of each line differ in length (Line A has 30-metre trams while Line B’s trams are 40m). These rather ugly Alstom products have no MU capability either...which makes no sense to me because long trains, especially in today’s Dublin, are sorely needed, especially for capacity.
As far as Line A goes, it looks like Abbey Street will be sacrificed, or must needs be if they want the trams to run without a hitch.
Apparently there's some scheme to create tunnels across the City Centre, but I don't get how that will work with the water table and all
Not sure myself. The Dublin Transport Office has some bizarre idea of “converting” the Luas Line B to a system they describe as “metro” (must have gotten the term from their French consultatnts and Connex, who is supposed to be running the Luas system, may Heaven help us); part of the plan is to extend the Luas Line B between Sandyford and Cherrywood (which is between Loughlinstown and Shankill); going northbound, the plan is to go underground onto the old Broadstone line (original Midland & Great Western Rwy line, and where the Maynooth trains used to go incidentally) onto a yet-unconstructed line operating to Dublin Airport and possibly Swords via Glasnevin, Finglas and Ballymun. Two other “Metro” lines are planned, one going between Tallaght West and the centre of Dublin via Kimmage, and another line connecting Finglas and Tallaght via Blanchardstown and Clondalkin (presumably an “outer loop” line).
On the subject of where the line went, I'm aware the only service running by the end was Harcourt St - Bray, but did trains ever run beyond Bray (perhaps on the line out of Pearse/Westland Row, or maybe an independent alignment) and were there any branches?
Here is a page with a good summary of the permutations of the Harcourt Street Line. The line originally was part of a railway company called the Dublin, Dundrum and Rathfarnham; about five years after forming, they became the Dublin and Bray Railway and, if I understand this history correctly, finished the line to Bray before the Waterford, Wexford, Wicklow and Dublin could extend the original Dublin & Kingstown that far south. Financiers were none other than the GWR, and the D&K extension via Dalkey and Killiney (the railway by then being called the Dublin & Wicklow) was designed by none other than I.K. Brunel. (The Dublin & Kingstown started with a 4' 8½" gauge too, this being converted to 5' 3" gauge in 1855.)
The web page has a brief list of the branch lines, too, most notably the Shillelagh and Macmine branches, plus a branch line serving the RDS.
With regard to the Broadstone Line, where was the original terminus? On the map, it looks like the tracks now end at the North Circular Road, but there seems to be "suspicious" space as far as Brunswick St N.
And whilst on that part of the city, are there any plans to do anything with the branch off the Western Suburban Line to the Eastern end of Phoenix Park? (It looks like it could quite easily be turned into a Heuston - Connolly connector - which it may indeed have origninally have been, looking at the angle of it.)
Two other “Metro” lines are planned, one going between Tallaght West and the centre of Dublin via Kimmage, and another line connecting Finglas and Tallaght via Blanchardstown and Clondalkin (presumably an “outer loop” line).
This last one sounds a little silly as it wouldn't reach the DART line at either end!
With regard to the Broadstone Line, where was the original terminus? On the map, it looks like the tracks now end at the North Circular Road, but there seems to be "suspicious" space as far as Brunswick St N
The original terminus was at Broadstone. :) (Not to be confused with Broadstone of the Somerset & Dorset of course) Original terminus of the Midland & Great Western Railway. Location of this terminal is where the streets of Constitution Hill, Western Way and Phibsborough Road meet. The old station building is still intact; but the grounds of the station have been used for Bus Éireann’s fleet for decades (and CIE Provincial Bus fleet before that, and of course Great Southern Railway bus service prior to that). The roadbed is still intact, albeit without tracks; the Great Southern Railway abandoned passenger traffic in 1937, but tracks remained until CIE took them up in 1961.
Personally, I really wish that the Great Southern Railway had not abandoned the original MGWR line between Broadstone and Liffey Junction back in 1937, because in actuality Broadstone is closer to the city centre of Dublin than Connolly is, and it would be a far shorter ride from Maynooth into Dublin than having to go through North Strand Junction as well (the current route).
If any rails reached North Brunswick Street, they would have been for freight, because the passenger terminus was a good bit north of there, as described.
And whilst on that part of the city, are there any plans to do anything with the branch off the Western Suburban Line to the Eastern end of Phoenix Park? (It looks like it could quite easily be turned into a Heuston - Connolly connector - which it may indeed have origninally have been, looking at the angle of it.)
That line was actually still in use for infrequent passenger movements almost into the very early 1980s; there was a boat train that operated from Galway to Carlisle Pier in Dún Laoghaire, and it used that route under the Phoenix Park. (Carlisle Pier station itself, where the Holyhead ferry departed from, was abandoned when the DART was built – as was argued, whatever work was being done to the alignment would have rendered the branch into the pier inaccessible, and apparently the Linke Hoffmann-Busch EMUs to be used for DART service were not able to negotiate the curve leading into the pier platforms. Nowadays, the Holyhead ferry doesn’t even use Carlisle Pier, instead using a rehabilitated pier to the north.)
There is an advocacy group called Platform 11 who have advocated the re-use of the Phoenix Park line as a connecting line between Heuston Station and the planned Spencer Dock station. Apparently, Irish Rail may put that plan into effect, extending Kildare commuter trains to Spencer Dock during rush-hours, which could still serve Heuston at the recently-built Platform 10. (IE’s original plan for the Phoenix Park line? Abandonment, before the lobbying began.)
As for the Metro proposals, they are indeed silly what with not connecting to DART at all. Platform 11 have come up with this “Interconnector” plan that would have tied things up, and included an inter-connecting tunnel between Heuston, Pearse, the Docklands and the northern DART line, which current Transport Minister Séamus Brennan dismissed by citing a bloated estimate of some €1.8 billion to build. (There is only one thing I dislike about this proposal, that of converting Dublin-Maynooth to DART; while it would be an improvement, neither the LHB or the new Mitsui rolling stock is up to Arrow standards in terms of comfort and facilities. At least the intent is to connect it to the Harcourt Street Line as DART and extend it to Bray...)
Does it still occur with the Trafalgar Square/Strand/Charing Cross/Embankment complex ?
The destination should show as Mullingar
Most trains end at Maynooth. If the sign reads Mullingar, he’ll be on one of the few expresses, but usually trains that go beyond Maynooth aren’t DMUs.
Be aware that some people still refer to Dublin Connolly Station by its old name, Amiens Street station
Those would be the older folk, since the station was named after James Connolly (a.k.a. “The Liberator”) in 1966. Many other stations were named after Irish patriots in that year, such as Heuston Station, after Seán Heuston (formerly known as Kingsbridge). CIE was the company that did this; more details here. Any younger people would just call the station “Connolly” anyhow.
PS. Most Maynooth-line commuter trains terminate at Pearse Station nowadays (formery Westland Row station and the original terminus of the oldest railway in the country, the Dublin & Kingstown).
The Maynooth-Connolly commuter rail service is all-DMU. Most are Arrows, but some may be the new CAF 2900-class (built in Spain). If you're lucky enough to catch the 0748 departure from Maynooth (only runs on a Monday), you’ll ride right from Maynooth to Connolly without stopping. Originally, though, the service was provided with push-pull equipment, de-motored former GNR DMUs with the former 201-class Metropolitan Vickers which had been re-engined with EMD prime-movers (not the current 201-class).
Before this commuter service was started up, the trains went from Connolly right to Mullingar without even stopping in Maynooth. The commuter service started back up in 1980 or so, and the only stops were Maynooth, Leixlip (Louisa Bridge), Clonsilla and Ashtown. The line was single-tracked west of Clonsilla, with a passing siding at Maynooth; now it is double-track to Maynooth (done in 2000) and the line has additional stations at Confey, Coolmine, Castleknock, Broombridge and Drumcondra.
Timetable is online at http://www.irishrail.ie/your_journey/printed_timetable_pdfs/2004/dublinlongford.pdf (I recommend downloading for better viewing)
SAS
There are a number of sites on the web. The site with the most comprehensive collection of pics of Irish rolling stock on the web (http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/) seems to be off-line at the time of writing. I did find a few pictures of Irish Rail DMUs, one showing a 2700-class in new livery and another of the new 2900-class built in Spain.
It's put out by Transit Gloria Mundi Productions.
Their website is Transit Gloria Mundi Productions
It has a full listing of everything they sell.
People have been taking some pretty SWEET pictures so far! We actually had to walk from the MOD consist to a standing train of Slants to exit! Also, a group of people went down the tunnel south of CHLL, and we heard some splashings as people took steps into water on the trackbed. Of course, it was dark, so those w/o lights couldn't see so well.
Another report will come on Monday, so take care!
I guess you didn't hang out at CHLL as long as I did.
Funny, I was responding to yuor post at Howard Beach...amd you were standing right next to me. :-P
The CDTA knows NOTHING about how to run a system...and it shows[case in point=the new station across the Hudson River from Albany].It was part of a plan for commuter rail service,that never got off the ground,[because of political back bitting]along with the new light rail line. So the BRT system was the answer.THE WRONG ANSWER,but an answer never the less.
And your right,It does suck. A bus is NOT a train...so to me,buses that pretend to be trains,and the people that propose them,are in need of service help mentally
:-) Andrew
In developing nations where car ownership isn't as widespread, people will ride whatver transit is available, and BRT is a big step up for the riders over normal slow buses. In this country, transit competes with the private auto as a transportation option. While its been shown that people will get out of their cars to ride a train, BRT isn't attractive enough an option to get people other than the transit-dependent to ride.
While BRT can be the perfect solution for a cash-strapped nation needing to move large numbers of transit-dependent people, in this country it's more often chosen because it won't threaten King Kar and the people who would lose money if too many people chose transit: the oil companies, the highway construction companies, the automakers, and the tire manufacturers.
As for flexibility, it's precisely the inflexibilty of rail that makes it a part of sound urban planning. While a bus can be re-routed at the drop of a hat, a rail line stays where it is. This means that building it requires commitment to the areas it serves. They jurisdiction that builds a rail line shows it is committed to a neighborhood, and is less likely to let the area served by the rail line become an abandoned victim of white flight in ten years. This is part of why rail can draw in development and investment while a BRT line won't.
Mark
Serious BRT requires a grade separated exclusive busway. That is also a committment.
Why not just do light rail? Well they have inflated the cost of light rail until it is almost as expensive as heavy rail. And if you have a busway, local bus from a variety of local routes can get on it and use it for part of the ride, as long as the dedicated BRT vehicles can leave the flow of traffic to stop at the stations.
I think serious LRT has to get off the street in congested areas also, as in Boston's green line, Philly subway-surface, Newark Subway, etc. But you need a whole feeder trolley network to justify the investment.
Mark
Interesting idea! The only disadvantage I can see is that on a BRT ROW you can have a "pull out" at the station so buses running express can continue right on through. But I guess that might be possible for LRT as well.
Meaning it aint' any cheaper than the already existing tracks.
you can learn basically anything you need to know about the official plans of the SAS here: http://www.mta.info/capconstr/sas/
David
does anyone know or have any guess as to what the headways would be? since there will be two trains converging onto the same tracks, i would assume they aren't going to be that tight.
unless of course CBTC comes into play....
wayne
I can understand not using I, but there is no 0 train to confuse an O train with.
Do you how long it would take to bult a cross ocianic tunnel...It will never happen. Just take the plane it would be a heck of a lot easier.
Dylan
That's not cost efficient. In fact the line will use some of the current Boston Shore Line alignment and depart from New York via Boston, Portland (Maine), Bangor (Maine), New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and then to Halifax, where it will take a short dive through the Ocean to reach Greenland. There, it will cross Greenland on a single track (Express Track with one stop) and reach England through Ireland and a tunnel to Holyhead and Great Western to Dorchester and then London.
AEM7
Now that Snediker is gone, do you miss it? Would you like to be able to ride or photograph it again? Or do you think what's there now is more fun?
Regards,
Jimmy
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
It's a similar bittersweet feeling I have about the Canal-Bowery abandonment and realignment project. I also have SO many happy memories of the Queens Canal platform. (Why do they always choose my "happy memory" stations!). Again, I can't count how many times I have waited at the Canal St platform to go home after going to Chinatown. As a teenager (and pre-Guiliani), I spent many an end-of-June day on that platform "smuggling" my freshly bought fireworks with my friends for our 4th of July roof-parties. I will never forget that platform. It was always a "pit" as long as I can remember it (mostly from the 80's and early 90's), but the memories made it such a great place, and a happy memory. I will also miss Canal St.
So in summary, yes, I do miss Snediker, and I will miss Canal. But at the same time, I think both projects were brilliant, and right on target of what the MTA should be doing. Sad events, but very good projects.
I saw the photos from here already, any others?
Thanks to those who respond.
I'll try to rephrase the question:
Anybody have *any* photos of Mill Hill East, Chesham, or any stations that only has 1 track to it?
I'm trying to look for nice sized photos.
If you find anymore sites, please do tell me.
It appears to be an enamelled sign intended for the top or bottom of stairs leading to a NB platform. The station below Camden Town seems to be' Mornington Crescent '
I would say it was for a station on the Charing Cross Line.
Alley Pally (not the former Wood Green on the main line ) and Northern City Line were not to be served direct 'From This Platform ' but by interchanging at Highgate
I've got Mill Hill East, on the Northern line page.
Here
I will quote "I saw the photos from here already, any others?"
Unless here means some other site, I already said I visited yours. And nice shots btw.
And yeah, I definitly check the site first.
Consider yourself fortunate that you have recieved so much information in answer to your query from people trying to share their knowledge with you.
Chuck
Regards,
Jimmy
Wait till you hear what the next trips will be running! A clue:
"He who has a wooden heart will not pass thru Heaven's gate".
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Has to be. Employee activity is fairly frequent down there.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
-Chris
Matt
Perhaps instead of bitching about the operators who are kind enough to allow you to donate 40 dollars to a noble cause and get a free train ride out of the deal, you'd instead like to thank fucking gawd that you have a system which has maintained a fleet of cars from it's rich history for your riding enjoyment. It is very easy for an agency to simply throw their cars away after their useful life is expended. It is quite another thing when people within the organization realize the potential benefits to keeping around a few of the old cars, indeed I would say that it is that distinction which separates the true transit agencies from the also-rans.
Instead of just running your mouth off and wasting a post with bitching about the kind volunteers who put in time to not only run your train, but also restore, maintain and paint it. And also to the system who supports their activities, even if it's only through tacit approval.
Once again, give a hand to C division, without them the centennial would be rather boring.
Your pal,
Fred
-Chris
-Chris
Group photo taken by putting my camera on a timer and resting it on a barricade outside Union Station. Obviously, I ran to the wrong side of the group but anyway, from left to right: Me, Evan (Red Line Raven), John (john), Chuck (TransitChuckG), Jeremiah (Mark's son), Mark (Mountain Maryland), and Dylan (Long Island Railroad M7)
Click here for a movie of a 4 car train of 2000 Series Breda Rehabs leaving the Crystal City Station (4.75 MB)
More to come...
1. Geographic center of system
2. The bowl
3. Second surface enterance with elevators only
4. Station on the Red Line that was not on the Adopted 1968 97 Mile Area Regional System Map
5. Longest Escalators
6. Originally to be called Chillum
7. Transfer station where both platforms are island platforms
8. Oldest twin platform station with knockout for second surface enterance
9. Widest twin platforms
10. Station with repeater signal in the interlocking
11. Station with longest pocket track
12. Station formerly known as Glebe Road
13. This station closes earlier than all the other stations each day
14. 24 inch escalators
15. Last station built with gull winged roof
16. Only elevated station with twin platforms and gull winged roof
17. Station in subway with mezzanines and fare collection on surface
18. Smithsonian Garber Center
19. Station formerlly known as Weapons Plant
20. Station formerly known as Marine Barracks
21. Station with unused bypass trackway
22. C end of A & C Junction
23. First station with no graphic pylons on platforms (changed wording from original to improve clarity of question)
24. South mezzanine with knockout for future transfer tunnel
25. Oldest elevated station
26. Station that once had Visitor Center in the name
Chuck Greene
It was fun, anyway , with our one group of (4).
Chuck Greene
The reason I point this out is because 17+67.5 on the B Route is 00+00 for the E, F and L routes.
We also made some discoveries that I had either forgotten about or never noticed in the past.
1. Tunnels from F and L junctions on the L route to the fan shaft at the north end of the Washington Channel sunken tubs have cast steel linings.
2. Tunnels between Galley Place (F01) and Mount Vernon Square (E01) have precast concrete linings.
3. The east entrance passageway in Navy Yard (F05) has provisions to build second surface entrance on the south side of M Street SE.
4. The tile on the Rockville (A14) platform are laid different then the tile laid in all other stations. The layout pattern is turned 30 degrees compared to other stations
5. There is a significant differences in platform widths at number of island platform stations from roughly 33’ 3’ (10.1498m) at Grosvenor (A11) down to 29’ 4" (8.93064m) at U Street (E03).
John
Dylan
MARK YOULL GET THE MAP SOON
For years, railroad publication CTC Board has sponsored an undertaking called "A Day In North America," when it seeks photos from participants around the country (as well as Canada and/or Mexico). Usually, hundreds of submissions are made and the best become a basis for the feature.
How about trying this approach by uniting the many urban transit/commuter railroad participants on this and other electronic railfan communications media nationwide. If someone wants to contact CTC Board, perhaps it could be linked with an actual "Day In North America" as a true show of the colors, if you will.
Properly organized, this would send quite a message (political and legal) to agencies around the country as well as Homeland Security and its decision-makers.
Another worthwhile activity would be to tally up what is going on where around the country. So far as I know, Boston and New Jersey Transit seem to be playing hardball, while MTA NYC Transit is considering it. Haven't heard anything about rules on SEPTA yet.
I understand that this week public address announcements on the Washington Metro started urging passengers to notify employees if suspicious activities (among them taking pictures or making sketches) were noted.
My recent personal experience in Denver, New Orleans, Houston and Dallas was quite favorable, with no announced restrictions and no harrasment of any type while photgraphing for several hours on each.
What about places like Pittsburgh, Chicago or the West Coast properties? Any anectodes from those distant precincts?
I'm sorry to say it, but this issue is starting to keep me up nights :-(
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
What I am trying to point out is the need to expand this effort beyond New York City.
Even though SubTalk and nycsubway.org is based and focused there, its reach is very large, and the ramifications of decisions being made now, like a stone in a pond, can and may affect railfans and rail photographers from coast to coast.
Similarly, though urban transit might be in for particular scrutiny (largely because it is easier to control access and behavior) a bad legal precednt could be very dangerous for all modes.
This is very serious business and should be regarded as such, so if all are potentially affected, all should have a chance (preferably a coordinated chance) to make their voices heard.
There is a lot "riding" on the outcome!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Regards,
Jimmy
Matt
What's up with all those flags at 39th Ave?
Tickets are by mailed reservation only, first come, first serve! There will be no day-of-trip tickets available on the trains. Demand for these tickets will be high, so get your requests and checks/money orders in the mail ASAP. If you don't have a flyer, here's the address you need to write to. Be sure to include a stamped self-addressed envelope:
NYCT Subdivision C - MOD Trip
1311 Waters Place, Room 221
The Bronx, NY 10461
Mine's already in my local mail box!
Maybe so, but when I rode a trip two years ago it was $40. by male.
Elias
Were they cheaper for females?
Seriously though, they had been $35 by mail until late last year. Last summers excursions were $35 in advance, or $40 on the day of the trips.
Anytime between 5:00PM and 8:30PM. The later the better, obviously.
Thanks for the update. Where would this trip be departing from and would you know the time? Mail out for my tickets today.
Thanks,
paul
Dates: July 17th, 18th, 24th and 25th
Times: All trips begin at 10:30 AM
Locations: All trips begin at 59th St/Columbus Circle, middle platform
Cost: $40 per ticket, $20 for children under 14
Availability: By mailed reservation only. No day-of-trip tickets will be available
Make checks payable out to: The March of Dimes
Where to mail your requests: see first post in this thread
What's running? The 4 museum R9's we're all used to, plus the museum BU gate cars in tow.
My nice neice is getting married (in Beantown) on the 17th.
So maybe I can make the Apple on the 24th or the 25th.
Maybe there will be a C Div Flyer in my mailbox this week.
: ) Elias
Rumor has it that they used Chicago because they wanted an el in an urban canyon and NYC does not offer this. Is it true that you cannot find an el in an urban canyon in NYC? They did use structure from both cities, as is apparent in the trailers.
Matt
That is the truth. They were all torn down.
Nowadays, Metropolis is a conglomeration of shots, but before it was New York.
At any rate I love that they are having EL shots no matter where they are from.
Sean@Temple
There are certain shots you can only do in NYC (the NYPL shot, the the 7 in the background). Chicago has the L, which NYC lacks (for good reason, IMO). LA has great weather and a civil service more acclimated to movie shoots.
I am limited to 850 Kb on the other place I use to host my pics for the board. If Anyone wants the original 2.5 MB file E-Mail me directly.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Koi
All I can say is . . . What a trip. At times I laughed so loud and so hard my lungs burned. What a group!
Sorry, I swore those sounds were coming from the real R17!
I don't know if you were there for the whole thing, but the two of us were dreaming up to have him stand at the railfan window of a train in service, making those sounds randomly, and sometimes adding sounds of the compressor sputtering or otherwise acting abnormally, and seeing if the motorman reacts.
Again, I still feel a burning in my chest every time I breathe deeply from what transpired. Yeah, I laugh at the simple stuff.
WHEN WILL I EVER HAVE THE TIME TO GO ON AN MOD TRIP?????????? LOL.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
When did Super Foamer (the Panthers fan on the extreme left) become a Subtalker?
Least I had an R38 A train all to myself and shot some videos from the RF window and sides.
anyway,that MOD trip was great.i'am the one with the yellow,white and
purple shirt.and it was my luck too,i got to go to Joe Testagrose's
apartment in brooklny,he showed me the Books he has and some pictures
he has taken.he even lend me one of his laptops until i got mine's
fixed.and gave me 2 CD-R discs full of his(and other people's)images.
i'v only seen half of the pictures in the 1st disc,i,ll try and post
some as soon as i'am done seeing them.
til next time
It looked like a fun trip. I wish I could have gone... I would probably fit in perfectly in the photo....
Why surely, you can fit....there's some room in front of JPC to squeeze you in....with the wonders of Photoshop!
Based on the columns seen in the picture and what may be indicated on the train in the background, I'll guess that the location is either at the front of a citybound platform somewhere on the West End between 9th Av and New Utrecht Av or the Brighton Line at the front of a northbound Newkirk Av platform.
Koi
Here's the consist:
R-33 9017 Redbird I
R-33 9016 Redbird I
R-33 9011 Silver & Blue
R-33 9010 Silver & Blue
R-33 9068 Green
R-33 9069 Redbird II aka Silver Fox
R-12 5760 Two tone Gray
R-15 6239 Marroon and Creme
R-17 6609 Maroon
R-33WF 9306 Bluebird
Itinerary:
Lv Times Square (C1) to Queensboro Plaza (UL)(C1) via Astoria Line (G2) local to Ditmars Blvd (G2).
Lv Ditmars Blvd (G2) via Astoria express (G3) to Queensboro Plaza G1)
via 60 Street tunnel and Broadway local (A1) to Canal Street (B1).
then via B1 to B3 to B4 to City Hall (LL) arriving on track B4. There was a ten car train of R-40's in the middle track on the lower
level. The platforms can only hold an eight car train so the train extended beyond the north end of the platform. WE pulled up to it and walked through three cars to reach the platform and go to lunch.
Lv City Hall (LL) (B4) via B2 to A2 and Broadway express(a4)to 57 Street-7 Avenue on A4, then wrong rail via 63 Street Line (G3) to Lexington Av-63 St arriving on the unused north side of the upper level.
Lv Lex AV-63 St (G3) switch to T1 and 6 Avenue local (B1) to W 4 St (LL) then via AB1 to 8 Avenue Line (A1) at Spring Street to express track (A3) s/o Canal. via 8Avenue-Fulton Street to Howard Beach (F1) to southbound express (F3) to Hamilton Beach and continue via F3 to Rockaway Park arriving on F4.
Lv Rockaway Park via F4 to 80 Street middle (K6). east via K1 to 104 Street middle (K3/4). west via K2 to Euclid and Fulton Street exp to West 4 Street (LL) and 6 Avenue Line to 34 Street where I bailed out.
The trip continued on to Junction Blvd.
A long trip yes but a very good one.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Yes indeed. The BU trips promise to be something really special. I definitely plan to make one or two. IT was good to see you too.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The owner of these pics is another SubTalker; perhaps he'll come forward and tell how he got access. My guess is that it was on a Transit Museum tour several years ago; they ran a couple of them, one of which I was on. Kodachrome 25 - all I was shooting back then - doesn't do too well in minimal light so I've only posted a couple of photos, and these are better than mine.
Also note the correction in the subject line... it was never completed and opened, so therefore it's not an abandoned station, just a disused one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Eh, it really doesn't matter with the replacement going on anyway. They aren't using the classic IND font (it's a variant of Copperplate from my observations) and they will use Helvetica (as at Canal Street-8th Avenue IND).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And I think one area is flooded aswell.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Was this station a strict terminal or a thru station for subway service continuing towards Manhattan? Why was the current 4 track Roosevelt Ave. station built with such narrow platforms when the whole complex would have been a tremendous transfer point (it currently is, but in an unintended way)? I use Utica Ave. on the Fulton St. line as an example. That station is huge, with wide platforms unecessary for a normal neighborhood station.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What a Subtalk turnout! Thanks to everyone for coming out! What a trip!
Good luck to those who are entering my photo contest as well!
And no, it's not photoshopped or paintshop or otherwise altered (except it was reduced in size from 1024x768 to 800x600). I had to do a double take when I was standing there because as I was taking the picture I didn't even notice, then when the train passed I swore I saw a P, but I was thinking "no f***ing way", so I looked at the photo on the camera and zoomed in, and sure enough, the damn thing said P. I've seen oddball signs on the end of trains before (like a V at Pacific St), but this is the first I've seen one on the front. Later in the day, I saw a 7 train with no front end sign.
Right, thats an (A) train, and so recognized at once.
It's an (A) that has underwent a change of sorts.
Cut off a leg or something.
: ) Elias
R-32.
Some T/Os will display a letter other than the route its running on, I guess in an attempt to not confuse the customers.
-Broadway Buffer
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
wayne
wayne
Is there anything in the rules about ralphing?:)
-Chris
Is New Look Terrapin the one with his hand in front of his face?
Leave Times Sq, switch to the N/W track at Queensboro Plaza heading north to Ditmars, Ditmars to QP via express track, 60 St tube, Broadway to City Hall lower, Broadway to 63 St connector, switch to 6 Av at Lex, switch at W4 via Fulton, via Rockaway (A) branch, Rockaway Park, Liberty el/Fulton, 8 Av then switch to 6 Av line to 21 St, Queensbridge then through 63 St to Broadway, north through 60 St to QP then via Flushing to Junction Blvd and end.
The consist: 9017-9016-9011-9010-9068-9069-5760-6239-6609-9306
Now onto the trip. So as expected there were many Subtalkers and regular rail buffs in general so it was a big turnout. I was at Times Square with oter people for a good while then around 10:45am the MOD train arrives and it included the Greenbird car [9068]. So I notice that all of the single unit cars are coupled consecutively and the married pairs after them so with the big turnout, then settled in 9306 & we depart at 11am and run through the 7 train route to Queensboro Plaza then switch over to the Astoria branch and head northbound on the local track and we arrive there and decided to take the train ahead to get photos of the run by via M track. At 30 Av I got a few shots then it was off into R68 2883 and take it to QP to wait for the MOD train but another N train gets in front of it then right afterwards we get into 9017 and the car is cool and we do about 40 [grrr....] through the 60 St tube and proceed to go through the 63 connector then down via Broadway local to Canal upper level then we switched over to the "express tracks". It gets interesting 8-).
So then we arrive at City Hall LL around 12:40pm and since there were storage trains [a few R40 W trains] we walked through that train to an R40 W parked at the platform then made our wat to the exit and it was surprisingly clean down there although the signs are now gone :-(. So we get some lunch at Blimpies then we collect some souvenirs from Samsung doing some promos so anyway we head back down to the LL and wait for the train to depart so we leave at 2:10pm and head north and switch to the Broadway express track and head northbound to the 63 connector at Lexington [the back], had to wait a good 15 minutes and switched over to 6 Avenue local followed by a switchover to West 4 St so we head down the A train via Fulton express and it was ok but we were stuck behind a R38 A, ruining the chance for good speed. As the trip went on, the laughter, jokes, discussion and such was just too damn funny and there were loads of comic relief in the cars we chilled in.
By time we reach Rockaway Blvd, it was just past 3:45pm and we still had some gound to cover so some photo stops were cut due to time and we stop at Howard Beach, got the pic and decided to ride the run on the flats but first we switch over to the center track so we can let the incoming A go in front and seeing A headways on weekends when its to either terminal you know its infrequent :-\. Two A's going to Brooklyn come before a Far Rock bound A goes by about 20 minutes later then we do pretty good down the flats but have to stop when there is a shuttle in front of us. Then we take a turn onto the Rockaway Park branch and its all good until we went BIE twice within one stop and the stops were HARD! So that was cleared up and arrived at Rockaway Park around 4:25pm and this was a second break to get a drink or whatever and the train parks on the side track for good photo shots. At first they switched the shuttle; now using 8 cars again; into the track next to it and making a pic shot useless for now [but got success later anyway].
Used the restroom and it had no paper towels but hey lets be thankful that it was even open lol. Waited nearly an hour for the train to get back to the track and we left at 5:40pm [keep an eye on the times!} to make our way north towards Junction Blvd so had to wait for an A to cross in front of us again! while waiting at Beach 90 and made a stop at Broad Channel and of course we continued with our 'mischief', practical jokes, the disses, going at each other with the Samsung balloons and such but man it was no joke :-D. Went through the flats at 39mph then arrived at Rockaway Blvd so the train went to 80 St to switchover to the Queens bound track so the fellow railfans had their cams ready to get their shots and it switched just east of Rockaway over going all the way to Lefferts, saving some time seeing we are already going on 7 1/2 to 8 hours. Went back on the tartar red R33's and we made our way via Fulton express, switched at W4 to run via 6 Avenue local.
This time after going through the 63rd connector again we went down to 21 St/Queensbridge then went back towards Manhattan and we were held on a curve for a good 10 minutes and it was almost 7:30pm then we run down to 57 St and briefly wrongrail on the n/b express track so we don't have to go down to 34 St to relay and go north again. Meanwhile the barrage of hits, 'mischief', jokes, etc. continues between some fellow railfans and then everything finally settled down after a day of having a very good and memorable experience, maybe in the wrong way in some instances [you had to be there to see it for yourselves] ;-D. We get moving once again by going through 60 St tube and again we hit no more than 40mph after a early slowdown and afterwards switched to the 7 train tracks and went via Flushing local and had to trail a 7 in front of us after 52 St to Junction Blvd and finished our marathon of a trip there at 8:15pm! Had a great time alright.
Now going home some of us rode R62A 1719 to 74 St to transfer to the G or R at Roosevelt so 5 minutes later a G arrives and its going good then at Norhtern Blvd we have long delays and persists until Court Square. The thing is when we get to 36 St, there was a F that was in the express track so it seemed like there were signal problems due ot the fact that all E's run to 2 Avenue this weekend so 53 tube is closed. Then we had more delays at Queens Plaza and by time we reach Court Sq the G in front of us went out of service and nearly cursh loaded our train so this causes a 20 minute delay in service and instead of the staying on the 7 then take the Q [which would of been better] I just decide to take the F at Smith/9 and finish my trip.
The list of Subtalkers:
The 795
Sci Guy 1904
VCP R62 #1516
Jehuty V2
NJ Coast Exp
A 8 Av Fulton Exp
Thru Express
Chris R27-R30
Amanda
New Look Terrapin
Aznboy4305
Boriqua
Bombardier
Sonic Express
R62A #1979
Newkirk Plaza David
Kingsbridge4bd
Joe C
Clayton
Broadway Junction
Second Avenue Stubway
Larry Redbird R33
SINY_R143
I know that I forgot some names since there were so many Subtalkers there so my fault if I left ya off the list, just include yourselves.
Pics to come later.
R68A 5074 (Q)
R33WF 9306 SPECIAL
R68 2800 (N)
R68 2883 (N)
R33 9011 SPECIAL
R33 9010 SPECIAL
R33 9017 SPECIAL
R33 9016 SPECIAL
R12 5760 SPECIAL
R62A 1719 (7)
R46 5954 (G)
R46 5960 (F)
-Chris
-Chris
Here's my version:
Started out at 1:30, went to Chauncey Street to get my Fun Pass and got a huge ass bottle of juice (a 2-liter) and took the B60 to Fulton St for the C. Crossed over at the Hopkinson Av mezzanine to the Queens side and took an R38 C to Broadway Junction, where I changed for a Lefferts A (R44) to Rockaway Blvd. Not even 2 minutes later here comes the Far Rockaway A (R38) so I grab the window and ride down to Broad Channel, where I waited quite awhile. I hung around taking photos all over the place, and even left the fare control twice to photograph the entrance and an abandoned exit.
After about an hour or so a whole mess of railfans comes pouring out of an R44 A train and I knew the excursion train was coming, but unfortunately my camera was acting funny and I was only able to get off 2 shots of the train approaching and 4 of it leaving.
I decided to take whatever came first - either the A to Howard Beach (then walk back to the North Channel Bridge) or the S to Rockaway Pk. The S came first, so I headed down to Rockaway Park and photographed the train entering the layup track next to the station and got a couple pics from the end, exchanged some short words with some of the guys on the trip before leaving on another S to Broad Channel and then R44 A up to Howard Beach.
I waited at Howard Beach for a while, and saw an R-38 with a P on the front and then finally the excursion train showed up, got 3 shots of that going by and then I took the AirTrain to Federal Circle where I changed for the train to Jamaica. The ride was great but I still hated it. At Jamaica I ran down the escalators, powerwalked under the LIRR and ran down the escalators jumping down one to catch the Manhattan-bound E train. This E had messed up signs including Canal St and Coney Island and 2 signs were installed backwards (good job Jamaica Yard!).
P.S. what in the world were these three taking photos of?
Had I realized how long it would take the excursion train to get back to Manhattan, I would've stayed on to 21-Queensbridge and intercepted the train there and then walked back to Queensboro Plaza. But I thought it was moving fast so I bailed off the E at Roosevelt for the G to Queens Plaza. I stopped for refreshments then took the scary elevator up to the 5th floor of the parking garage and got a few shots of the N, 7, LIRR and Acela. Two R40M sets in a row went by towards Astoria but neither one came back. (One did eventually come back, but it just sat there on the curve, and then turned around and went back to Astoria). Finally the excursion train shows up and I got shots of that (was hoping for the sun to either set or duck behind a cloud but no dice, so I had to shoot away from the sun) and then I headed up to Junction Blvd in hopes of catching it depart but no dice, so I headed back down with some of the people from the trip.
Switched to the G at Roosevelt which was a very slow ride due to several "stalled trains" at 46th Street, 36th Street, Queens Plaza, and Court Square. Dunno what happened exactly but when I got off at Broadway two more southbound G trains showed up within 4 minutes. I meant to walk to Lorimer St but lost my sense of direction and accidentally walked to Hewes instead. Got a final shot, of a Manhattan-bound J with the lit Williamsburg Bridge and the HSBC building, then caught the Queens-bound J to Norwood where I went to Wendy's and finally took another J back home to Chauncey, but not before seeing a train with J signs on the front and back (but was dark) fly through the station at full speed, without slowing down or even blowing the horn.
A R40 in City Hall lower level.
R38 arriving at Rockaway Blvd.
What train is it lol?!
Now the MOD train shots, with one rollsign setting to go with it.
What a destination! :-P
One of my favorites of the day
ENJOY!
Thanks,
-Tom
spelling mistake...
What videos? Nothing was moving down there, right? There were just a whole bunch of laid up trains. I would think photos would have been better in this instance.
Here's a shot from the middle of the southbound platform, looking north. The free space between train and structure was limited to that which you see here:
The only other area of open space on the platform we were allowed to be on was at the extreme southern end, where I shot this photo. Ironically, the opposite platform was completely open and was far more suitable for photography. Unfortunatley, I'm not crazy enough to go down on the trackbed to access it:
After the BRT was given the rights to the Manhattan bridge routes, the plans changed. Expresses were diverted over the bridge from 4th Ave. and the partially built Canal St. subway. A ramp was built from the southern end of the upper level to carry the local tracks down to the lower level before reaching Cortland St.
The BMT desperatley wanted to expand northward from 57th St via the UWS, so I'm assuming that City HaLL would have terminated trains coming from there as well as Queens, while expresses continued down to Whitehall St. and into Brooklyn.
You really outdid yourself this time Dave! Really cool.
That's awesome that they let you guys really wander around, even onto the trackbed beyond the station. So how far do those trackbeds extend beyond the edge of the platform? And is it only one track that extends beyond?
I sincerely hope that the TA gave permission to do that (but somehow I don't believe so).
If the suits see these pics with the passengers on the roadbed, it could spell the end of MOD trips after this centennial year. What's the point of raising money for charity and risk hefty lawsuits by unattended passengers in the process?
The trip would not have been the same without these.
-Chris
Hope you liked em!
-Chris
-Chris
???
More realistically it's probably a leaf-blower or a track dryer(haha).
I've piloted that sucker before in Pitkin Yard. It has a jet engine for propulsion and is the noisiest "train" you've ever heard (maximum speed - 3 mph). And when that sucker goes underground, oh man, your eyes start burning up and you couldn't breathe for all the money in the world.
I would rather be unemployed than have to work that sucker in Pitkin Yard again.
The jet engine does propel the train and at the same time blow the snow away with it's exhaust. That's why whenever it goes underground, it completely engulfs the tunnel with fumes. It doesn't draw any power from the third rail.
Anyway, that's what I was told from the TA maintainers operating the jet blower.
But there was no way to go around it. Pitkin Yard was buried in over 2 feet of snow after a blizzard, and the only way to change tracks was to bring the blower into the underground portal and then wait for the line-up. Cough! Cough!
Your pal,
Fred
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Your pal,
Fred
Most of those cars are not airconditioned. They were probably the singles from the flushing that never were air conditioned, and of cousre some were of an older type that never were airconditoned.
You can tell by the arrangement of the grab bars, wether or not the car was rebuilt with air. Indeed, the Big Fans are also a give away.
Why preserve ACd card, that is just more to maintain.
Elias
Just as a point of reference, only one of those cars is a World's Fair single (9306). The other three museum cars are also singles but that's not exactly what you were talking about. 9010-9011, 9016-9017, and 9068-9069 are all Mainline R33's and were indeed air conditioned, although I'm not sure they'll spend too much money maintaining the a/c's in those units going forward, nostalgia or no.
Matt
Enjoy!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.info
Chuck Greene
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
Matt
After the trip broke up at Junction Blvd, I rode a Manhattan bound 7 accompanying John V and Koi, among others whose names I forget (sorry). I exited at 46th, grabbed photos and then moved on to 40th/Lowery where I photographed an incoming train. I greeted the glaring T/O and he responds "I'm not good, it's against the law to take photos". I responded that it wasn't illegal YET to which he replied "Do you want me to call the cops?" "Sure", I sez, "I'll argue the point with them too. What's your supervisor's name?" He told me again the photography was illegal, and it became an "Is - Is Not" kinda argument before he finally realized that his job was to get the train to the next station. Me, I remained at the station, took more pics and looked out for some police to show up. None did, so after about a half hour I left.
GCT - I stepped outside and noticed a larger than normal police prescence and before I could ask, I noticed a group of runners with one carrying a torch! WTF?
More stories and pics later. Today I'm going fishing.
Your pal,
Fred
GCT - I stepped outside and noticed a larger than normal police prescence and before I could ask, I noticed a group of runners with one carrying a torch! WTF?
The Olympic Flame/Torch was all over the city yesterday. You didn't get the memo?
Your pal,
Aloof
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Awesome trip. My son had a blast !!
Sounds like Newspeak to me... it doesn't matter what the law actually says - any lie, repeated often enough, becomes the "de facto truth." Strangely, the more bizarre the lie, the fewer times it need be repeated...
This seems to be what they're trying to do with the photography ban.. whether or not it actually gets passed, and however long that takes to happen, they're just going to pretend it's the law anyway, effective immediately. Why don't we just fire the entire Congress while we're at it - just let the Prez make up the rules as he goes along, and everyone "pretends" that it's the law? We'd save millions of dollars every single year!
PS: Awesome pics! I was on the trip too - we probably met at least once but didn't know each other... I was the guy with the beard in the light checkered shirt... I'm in the group photo just to the right of the Rock Park sign. My first MOD trip, so now I'm de-virginized :)
-Chris
I wonder if stating "railfans are not terrorists" in the article would have qualified as being practical info...
I hope they rode another line and saw that they were the same, unless they rode a CAF car then they would think they're on the red or blue line.
Ahh yes, Spring has sprung as well as idiocy.
Another reason to support tourist-rail.
I bet hotel parking lots become a demolition derby.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
That's pretty funny. I also heard a similar one. One of my friends used to live in across the street from the Silver Spring station. Well once his sister-in-law had moved to the DC area after completing grad school at Tufts. Well since she had been used to MBTA where the train is actually the color of the line... She took one look at a train arriving at Silver Spring and said that it was the brown line. I got a good laugh out of that one and explained that WMATA is not like MBTA.
I said it before I'll try to help tourists out as much as possible since mosts tourists outside of big cities don't usually use mass trasit.
I helped an older couple at the farecard machine at Vienna recently. They were using the regular machines to try and buy multiple farecards. She stuck in a $10 bill and said, "I only want to buy 2 farecards at $2.20 but it wouldn't give me enough change, blah blah blah". I stopped her right there and told her to hit cancel to get her money back and use the blue farecard machines which allow you to buy more than one.
Chuck
I like your way of thinking--at the beginning of the Scavenger Hunt (at Union Station), I was showing the guys how to get their day pass, when I noticed in elderly couple join us, if only to learn how to get one--I was more than happy to share them in the lesson.
Mark
Being a transit fan like we all are definitely has its benefits for those that don't use it too much. My wife calls me every now and then with a question one of her coworkers have about something and I can usually answer it off the top of my head.
Wish I could have joined you guys, but it sounds like you had a great time.
We also discovered another station with a knock-out wall for a future entrance...Navy Yard
Also, we witnessed a VERY LARGE blind be lead OVER the platform edge
by her (also blind) guide dog---As far as I know, after others jumped down to help her and the dog up, all were ok----Power was shut off for a few minutes so it made for a mini-crunch...The only real idiots were those that jumped down from the Shady Grove side, then had to jump over the 3rd Rail (the incident happened on the west end of the Glenmont platform)
Also, we witnessed an interesting glitch with some Green Line CAF's--at Navy Yard, the last two cars had no power and half the doors didn't open....hmmmmm.
Later,
Mark
Sometimes I wear my ID around my neck to look more like a native. Having any sort of ID hanging from you makes you look more like a native. But I find that if I wear that into a museum or store, then customers of those institutions start assuming I work there...
A small fraction of those offering unsolicited advice may be trying to scam unsuspecting tourists... but I've only seen that happen maybe twice in the past decade (both of them trying to sell me expired day passes, and both of them got talked to by the MTPD). Mostly they're genuinely trying to be helpful to a guy who is hauling around his kids and maybe looks a little outnumbered :-)
Tourists don't bite, don't mate in public and do minimal harm to native plants and trees. Let's keep this in mind when choosing between welcoming them and squashing them like bugs.
Funny stuff.
But here's the joke: A Sunday evening Regional train comes in a mere 17 minutes later than a Sunday evening Decella train. At any other time, the difference is maybe another 15 minutes *give or take*! And yet the price jumps to nearly double that of the Regional except on Sunday evenings when Regionals are still considered peak by Amtrak.
I am hoping that someone can explain to me the economic prospect of the Decella Express as opposed to more Regional trains serving more stations along the NEC? In terms of Amtrak's reservation system, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Those poor Decella Regional cars must've been disappointed when they lose their NorthEast Direct paint-schemes. What an insult.
1) What does P32AC-DM stand for? I know that "DM" means dual mode, but what about "P" and "AC"?
2) What does the "GP" in designations like GP38, GP38-2, and GP40 stand for?
3) what does the "R" in all of the NYCT subway car designations stand for?
TIA.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
2) GP = general purpose
3) R = that's up for debate
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
DE=Diesel electric (Shaft output of a diesel engine is converted to electrical energy by a generator or alternator to be fed to traction motors which are directly geared to the driving axles.
30 = 3,000 HP.
AC- The electrical energy to the traction motors is in the form of alternating current which can have the frequency of it's AC pulse varied to control the speed of the special brushless AC traction motors which are used. This VARIABLE FREQUENCY DRIVE is the only way to control the speed of a brushless DC motor. BTW, When you see 60 Hz on the nameplate of an electric home appliance it refers to the fact that the power that Con Ed supplies to your home pulses (goes from + to - polarity as a rate of 60 times a second)This 60 Hz (Hertz) rate is accurate enough that old style electric clocks have tiny versions of the type of motors seen in an AC drive locomotive, with the time regulated by those Hertz pulses. Conventional DC motored units have a speed control which works by throttling the fuel flow to the diesel engine and simultaneously varying the supply of low voltage current to the generator or alternator field. Remember that a generator produces electricity by moving a coil of wire through a magnetic field. On a locomotive, this field is produced by an electromagnet which can be made stronger or weaker by adjusting the flow of current to the magnet.
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Ah, but it can and does stand for Revenue, least wise it was that way for the first cars... Only later on did it mutate to include all sorts of rolling stock, and even some shop equipment, IINM.
Requsition number might be appropriate, but what they requisition every thing from subway cars to paper clips, and so far I have not encountered an R-47839 Paper Clip.
Revenue still might make sense if you want to say that the equipment is or is in direct support of revenue equipment.
Leastwise, that was *my* understanding of the situation, an understanding, that if coreect, was probably confered upon me on this website.
: ) Elias
The "R" relates to Revenue contract number and orginally included all rolling stock purchases. It was used for both passenger and work equiptment and for certain material purchases directly related to the rolling stock. Later it was used for other capital and equiptment purchases.
Examples:
R-1 300 Passenger Car Bodies
R-2 Trucks and Motors for the above.
R-3 Work Cars
R-4 500 Passenger Car Bodies
R-5 Trucks and Motors for the above
R-6 500 Passenger Cars
R-7 150 Passenger Cars
R-8 Work Cars
R-8A at least one work car and two passenger type revenue collection trailers
R-9 153 Passenegr Cars.
Later R numbers also includes wheel truning machines and roll sign replacement contracts. Thats why the R numbers are so high today.
Larry, RedbirdR33
"GP"-General Purpose-"Geeps" (thats how the Jeep got its name in World War II-a general purpose vehicle)
"P"-a GE term for passenger unit, AC-alternating current
What does P32AC-DM stand for? I know that "DM" means dual mode, but what about "P" and "AC"?
P – passenger locomotive, 32 – 3,200 horsepower, AC – AC traction motors. It is strictly a General Electric deisgnation IIRC, like the P32-8, P40/42DC, and of course the ill-fated P30CH.
What does the "GP" in designations like GP38, GP38-2, and GP40 stand for?
General Purpose. Also applies for locomotives such as GP7, GP9, GP15, all the way up to GP60M which IMHO should have had a passenger variant (then we would not have to see the plethora of oddball commuter locomotives such as the MP36PH-3S/3C, DE/DM30AC, PL42AC, and F59PH/I that we see nowadays).
SD = Special Duty, as in as SD-40 dash 2 or an SD 45 etc etc...
Characteristic of the SD locomotives is their C-C truck arrangement vs the B-B arrangement of the GPs
GP, SD, F etc are EMD designations. there was also a BL in there somehwere. F-7s were in their day the most common of locomotives and are much despised by ferrophiles.
Alco had PA-1 PA-2 RS 3 etc.
GE used U designations (for Universal), and were thus called U-Boats.
SD = Special Duty, as in as SD-40 dash 2 or an SD 45 etc etc...Characteristic of the SD locomotives is their C-C truck arrangement vs the B-B arrangement of the GPs
Correct. One blatant exception, of course, would be Metra’s F40C with its C-C trucks.
GP, SD, F etc are EMD designations. there was also a BL in there somehwere
The BL-2, an oddball design. Meant to compete with Alco’s RS-1, but due to its body design being more cowl than hood, it was not as suitable for road-switching. The GP-7 was more successful.
F-7s were in their day the most common of locomotives and are much despised by ferrophiles
Much despised? The “steam-killers”, you mean? They did stick around for quite a while. I suspect that a rake of A-B-B-A F7s would be better looked upon than a single overcomputerized SD90MAC at this stage of the game...
Just don't send any e-mails, my e-mail's been down for a while.
Happy father's day to all, BTW.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
ROFL!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Yes, but it's not getting there via Jerome anymore...
hint: look under the 4
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
What Rockwell truxk fiasco? What occurred?
Oh, and btw, my own 25th birthday is on Tuesday...
"Washdaclawsindaws"
Enjoy.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
From personal expreience, you'll be 13 without you even noticing a thing.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Regards,
Jimmy
PS _ Did I ever tell you about when I saw the Rocket at the Rainhill Trials ?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Chuck Greene
Arthur Thomas
Thats hard for me to forget, cause you have the same birthday as my sister.
-Broadway Buffer
ROFL.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Happy belated birthday, enjoy your summer riding the trains.
-Chris
Saturday
Sunday
Saturday
Sunday
Sorry about that
Matt
What camera do you use?
-RJM
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/20old.gif
John
I hate to do it to you--
Minnesota (in Minnesota Ave) is spelled wrong.
The Avenue in Potomac Avenue is spelled wrong also,
And, as was mentioned previously, Rosslyn has two "S"'s
You Da Man,
Mark
Any body else here up for any other WMATA destination signs, retro, fantasy or otherwise.
John
Mark
List the Station out as I lost my copy of Ditters book as the result of Isabel.
I will do 8;
Greenbelt to Rosecroft and Rosecroft to Greenbelt with north end station names both as they exist today and retro.
Greenbelt to Branch Avenue and Branch Avenue to Greenbelt 1968 ARS on south, north end station names both as they exist today and retro.
John
Everything the same from Greenbelt south with two changes---West Hyattsville would still have been Chillum...we would have had just U Street and Mount Vernon Sq-UDC (Federal City College was already gone)
After Anacostia is went..
Alabama Avenue, Southern Avenue, St. Barnabas, Rosecroft.
Thanks,
Mark
And... they just jumped from Federal City College to Mt Vernon Sq-UDC? I thought UDC was added in later.
What about the other changes and Naylor Road, when were those made?
Rosecroft to Greenbelt
Greenbelt to Rosecroft
John
Green Line - Laurel to Waldorf
Retro Yellow and Blue
Blue Line - Largo to Woodbridge
Silver Line
Yellow Line - Greenbelt to Mount Vernon
Please?
Green Line - Laurel to Waldorf
Retro Yellow and Blue
Blue Line - Largo to Woodbridge
Silver Line
Yellow Line - Greenbelt to Mount Vernon
I have lists for all of these stations.
Give me some time.
I will also do a couple of other fantasy signs
John
Mark
There would be 2 retro Yellow Line signs Greenbelt to Franconia and Greenbelt to Springfield
John
Mark
Though judging by what you said, I'm guessing they decided on having Yellow only go to Mt Vernon Sq-UDC when they figured out they needed more cars, so it was probably planned until 1991 for Yellow and Green to go to Greenbelt.
Again, I say.... They need to extend Yellow north under Georgia Avenue to Brightwood (maybe divert it in some spots if tunneling under Georgia Ave-Petworth Station would present problems). Even if they never used it for Yellow, it'd at least give the southern Green Line more service, as they'd have someplace to turn back besides Greenbelt or Mt Vernon Sq, thus allowing for added trains to that leg of the trip. Heck, they'd probably have the Green alternate, and send the Yellow there regularly, effectively freeing up the pocket at Mt Vernon Sq for the Blue line to ease crowding in the shared corridor when the Silver Line is completed.
Though judging by what you said, I'm guessing they decided on having Yellow only go to Mt Vernon Sq-UDC when they figured out they needed more cars, so it was probably planned until 1991 for Yellow and Green to go to Greenbelt.
The decision to relocation of the Greenbelt station happened long before the decision to change the configuration of the Yellow line service in Virginia.
John
As I recall the maps that were displayed on the trains, in station and in brochures prior to the chances made for the opening of the Yellow Line showed the northern terminal at Greenbelt.
John
Mark
p.s.---thanks again for the gifts this past weekend
I have a train map that Cody gave me in 1977 This map shows the Red Line open from Rhode Island Avenue (B04) to Dupont Circle (A03) and Blue Line open between National Airport (C10) and Stadium-Armory (D08). The maps of that era only showed unopened segments by not having the black circles at stations. It did not use hashed lines on the unopened segments like the later maps. Anyway this map shows what is now Greenbelt (E10) as Greenbelt Road. With both Green and Yellow Lines terminating there. It also shows West Hyattsville (E07) as Chillum, Georgia Avenue-Petworth (E05) as Georgia Avenue, Mount Vernon Square (E01) as Federal City Collage, Tenleytown (A07) as Tenley Circle, Union Station (B03) as Union Station-Visitor Ctr, Ballston (K04) as Glebe Road and Virginia Square (K03) as Ballston, and Stadium-Armory (D08) as Stadium/Armory.
This map also shows the early configuration of the original Yellow line terminals in Virginia on the H and J Routes. The H Route terminal what is now the J Route as Franconia and the abandoned original J Route terminal at Backlick Road as Springfield.
John
And there IS a development near the Metro and CSXT/Amtrak/VRE ROW where it crosses Franconia Road/VA 644 called "Franconia Station"... I originally thought Franconia-Springfield was to be built there, until I read on VRE's website where THEIR Franconia/Springfield station is, and it was to have direct interface with Metrorail's Blue Line...
Oh, the 1977 map... what name changes HAD been implemented by then?
I believe the VRE facility is on the same site.
And there IS a development near the Metro and CSXT/Amtrak/VRE ROW where it crosses Franconia Road/VA 644 called "Franconia Station"... I originally thought Franconia-Springfield was to be built there, until I read on VRE's website where THEIR Franconia/Springfield station is, and it was to have direct interface with Metrorail's Blue Line...
Oh, the 1977 map... what name changes HAD been implemented by then?
There were a lot of back and forth changes that took place, most of my memory of that stuff is kind fuzzy because their were a lot of proposals put on the table then quickly removed. Some appeared on train maps some did not.
John
Actually Oren the 1968 ARS had what is now known as Greenbelt at Greenbelt Road. And when the location was down at Greenbelt Road the station was named Greenbelt Road.
Both Yellow line terminal station in Virginia had trains running to and from Greenbelt Road.
John
There isn’t much more that I can add that you haven’t already made. Besides this is one of the areas of the system where I know little about the design, construction and location of the various support facility.
John
I forgot about the split Yellow in the early days---After Van Dorn, it would split with one brance heading further west to a Springfield station and the other branch along the present alignment to Franconia...when they eliminated the Springfield branch, they added the Springfield Station on the current alignment...then later deleted it. The planned station location was to be just outside the beltway along the current alignment----I wonder if they'll ever put it BACK in the plan or if provisions were made for a future station there? Hmmm, might be worth checking out.....
Mark
I will also add here that the location of the Franconia station was to be on the south side of Franconia Road with all of the support facilities that go with a typical suburban terminal station.
It is my understanding of the evolution of present configuration of the J Route from a friend of mine that works for VDOT is the Backlick terminal was deleted and the Franconia terminal was moved further south to the present location of Springfield-Franconia (J03) No adding of Springfield-Franconia then deleting of the original Franconia terminal. The changes were done for funding reasons.
As to the possibility of an infill station at Franconia Road, any thing could happen. As far as I know from what I have seen near Franconia Road there doesn’t appear to be any provisions for a future station at that location and there is no train control RTU between Van Dorn Street (J02) and Springfield-Franconia (J03) unlike the RTU at Potomac Yard (C11) between National Airport (C10) and Braddock Road (C12).
John
Greenbelt to Franconia
Greenbelt to Springfield
Others to come later.
John
Largo Town Center to Woodbridge
Germantown to Onley
John
Germantown to Onley
John
It is Olney, not Onley
You have transfers to the Orange, Silver, and GREEN lines at Metro Center
But as usual, great job.
Did you get my e-mail? Pls respond by e-mail if you are interested.
Doh !
You have transfers to the Orange, Silver, and GREEN lines at Metro Center
Doh !
Germantown to Onley
John
Of course, it still looks really good.
Damm, to many "Dohs" for one day.
Germantown to Onley
John
Germantown to "Olney"
John
Thanks again!
You also have the transfer at Takoma instead of Fort Totten....
Doh!
Mark
Doh !
Germantown to Olney
I think we have developed a new SubTalk sport. Correct Johns errors. Keep them comming.
John
Two questions, though more related to station location than the rollsign itself:
On Red, how close would the alignment come to MARC's Metropolitan Grove Station, and which stop would be closest to it?
On Blue, for Lorton, is that at the VRE station, the Auto Train Terminal, or between the two?
The alignment are described in my map. The location of Metropolitan Grove would be north of Oakmont Avenue and Ridge Road north of the MARC station.
On Blue, for Lorton, is that at the VRE station, the Auto Train Terminal, or between the two?
It could be any of the three.
John
Stadium-Armory to Ashburn
Ashburn to Stadium-Armory
John
Incidentally, does this mean there will be two "Morgan" stations? You might recall that Summerfield Blvd. in Prince Georges county, MD (site of the new blue line station serving JKC stadium) has been renamed in honor of Garrett Morgan, invetor of the traffic light. That could become confusing, especially since they would be at completely opposite ends of the region. Oddly, the Redskins' have their trainging facility in the Ashburn area, so either training or at a home game they are off (or at least close to) a road named Morgan.
I tacked "Morgan Road" on the station that is called VA-606 in the DEIS. So that name is not in official WMATA documentation. VA-606 is Old Ox Road and is the road that crosses and interchanges with the Dulles Greenway VA-267 south of the station. Morgan Road is one of the primary roads that goes north that connect the station entrance with areas southeast of Ashburn. The other road is Lockridge Road but it runs in to a residential subdivision.
John
Can you imagine what the pylons will look like at say, Federal Center SW with three dots and 3 sets of strip maps on the pylon,
Mark
And for the other stops... it'd be weird. I can guess they'd have Blue/Orange on one side, and Orange/Silver on the other.
You mean something like this?
Mind you this is nowhere near scale.
John
Have I told you lately---I love.....the way you think...
I was looking at one of the title pages of my Dupont Circle (A03) finish contract construction plans that has a system map on it. There are station locations and station names that you likely have never heard of.
A trip to the Martin Luther King Library on G Street NW would give us most of this documentation.
John
Oh and those station names from my finish contract construction plans;
Helpine Road (Twinbrook)
Michigan Avenue (Brookland-CUA)
Monroe Avenue (Was located at the VA US 1 crossing over Potomac Yards, station moved south to the present location of Bradock Road)
Independence Avenue (Smithsonian)
Voice Of America (Federal Center SW)
Oklahoma Avenue (Deleted, was to be built near RFK Stadium north parking lot)
Kenilworth Avenue (Deleted, D and G Junction pocket track)
Deane Avenue (Deanwood)
Greenbelt Road (Greenbelt)
Chillum (West Hyattsville)
Federal City Collage (Mount Vernon Square)
Pennsylvania Avenue (Archives)
Telegraph Road (Deleted, between C and J junction and Telegraph Road)
Route 7 (West Falls Church)
Gallows Road (Dunn Lorring)
Nutley Road (Vienna)
John
Oklahoma Avenue (Deleted, was to be built near RFK Stadium north parking lot)
Kenilworth Avenue (Deleted, D and G Junction pocket track)
in both instances, why?
Deane Avenue (Deanwood)
I'll assume they didn't have any plans yet for Minnesota Ave.
Monroe Avenue (Was located at the VA US 1 crossing over Potomac Yards, station moved south to the present location of Bradock Road)
Isn't this (or somewhere near here) where Potomac Yard station was to be built?
Pennsylvania Avenue (Archives)
I guess it would be confusing as just "Pennsylvania Avenue"... isn't Federal Triangle on the same street? And what was Federal Triangle's original name?
Telegraph Road (Deleted, between C and J junction and Telegraph Road)
So it wasn't actually to be AT Telegraph Road? Or did you mean Van Dorn Street? And why'd they omit it, this seems like it could have been a good idea. Or was this to be too close to the as-of-yet-unbuilt stop at Quaker Lane?
And I take it you're none too fond of the current surname at Mt Vernon Sq...
The VOA headquarters was and is in the building directly across D SW from the station entrance.
The station now known as Suitland was once called Federal Center. I forgot to put Suitland (Federal Center) in my previous post
Oklahoma Avenue (Deleted, was to be built near RFK Stadium north parking lot)
Kenilworth Avenue (Deleted, D and G Junction pocket track)
in both instances, why?
Redundant, The Oklahoma Avenue site was and is very close to Stadium-Armory. Their has been talk about building an infill station at this location.
Deane Avenue (Deanwood)
I'll assume they didn't have any plans yet for Minnesota Ave.
There is no Minnesota Avenue on the map in the construction plan I was quoting from The addition of Minnesota Avenue and the some what isolated location of Kenilworth Avenue made Minnesota Avenue more accessible to more people.
Monroe Avenue (Was located at the VA US 1 crossing over Potomac Yards, station moved south to the present location of Bradock Road)
Isn't this (or somewhere near here) where Potomac Yard station was to be built?
The planed location of the Potomac Yard station is further north closer to the shopping center.
Pennsylvania Avenue (Archives)
I guess it would be confusing as just "Pennsylvania Avenue"... There are a total of three station that are close to Pennsylvania Avenue. isn't Federal Triangle on the same street? Actually Federal Triangle is under 12th Street NW halfway between Pennsylvania Avenue and Constitution Avenue. And what was Federal Triangle's original name? Federal Triangle's.
Telegraph Road (Deleted, between C and J junction and Telegraph Road)
So it wasn't actually to be AT Telegraph Road? Telegraph Road was and is the closest cross street to the station location Or did you mean Van Dorn Street? Their was and is a Van Dorn Street on the map in the plans And why'd they omit it, this seems like it could have been a good idea. It was omitted because it was decided to built the station at Eisenhower Avenue that was not on this map, making the station at the Telegraph Road Redundant Or was this to be too close to the as-of-yet-unbuilt stop at Quaker Lane? Quaker Lane is not on the plan map I was quoting from.
And I take it you're none too fond of the current surname at Mt Vernon Sq...I have no trouble with Mount Vernon Square as the station name, I do have trouble with all of the stuff after the first hyphen.
John
mark
"ASHBURN via Dulles Airport, Tysons Corner, Ballston, Arlington, Rosslyn, Georgetown, Foggy Bottom, Metro Center, Smithsonian, L'Enfant Plaza, and Capitol South"
For the 15 character side destination sign:
AVDATCBARGFBMCSLEP&CS (21 characters)
Perhaps that will get Metro to shorten the name of some things.
New York Avenue is going to be an atrocity, and I can't say I'm too thrilled about "Penn Quarter" tacked on to Archives-Navy Memorial... which WAS once just "Archives" (they didn't even need to get new signs, just re-word them for the initial suffix). If they ever DO decide to add the other attractions at Stadium-Armory...
I guess I should just be glad for SOME stations not being anywhere too close to any really stand-out attractions (the Federal stops, L'Enfant Plaza, Union Station (though THAT is an attraction itself, and once WOULD have had "Visitors Center" on the nameplate - isn't that why Union Station has longer wallsigns than, say, Farragut North?)). I think in the far future of WMATA, the only stations to NOT have had some surname addition will be:
Franconia-Springfield
Prince George's Plaza
Takoma
Forest Glen
Glenmont
Rockville
Crystal City
Huntington
Anacostia
Navy Yard
East Falls Church
Medical Center (unless they rename the facility itself)
Federal Center SW
McPherson Sq (they'd have added "White House" by now, I wonder why they didn't...)
Fort Totten
Silver Spring (barring the plans for a "Silver Spring Transit Center")
Southern Ave
Suitland
Van Dorn Street
Rhode Island Ave
Judiciary Sq
Union Station
Pentagon
Fairfax is not close enough to Vienna to warrant a station name change in my opinion.
Many operators call Medical Center "Medical Center/NIH". My operator this morning called it "Medical Center/NIH/Navy Medical/Suburban Hospital." The funny thing about that is while Suburban Hospital is within walking distance of Medical Center, you aren't allowed to walk through the NIH campus, therefore, Bethesda is the station to use for that hospital.
Fairfax is not close enough to Vienna to warrant a station name change in my opinion.
At least it's shorter. If I find another name for a station anywhere NEAR as horrendously long as U Street-Cardozo and Woodley Park-Zoo have now, I'll crack. That goes for any FORCED name changes as well, no matter how short they may be.
And I figured "Medical Center" would stick because of its location. Unless they tear down the NIH campus or the medical center itself, the only thing around the station is a hospital campus... if they build a mall there or something, that may present a problem, but who's going to do THAT?
Speaking of Medical Center, isn't that a kind of private stop? Even Pentagon, despite being alongside the southeast face of the Pentagon, has more function than just "security clearance ONLY" passenger use, given the bus island nearby. I'd figure Medical Center to be only slightly more used than Arlington Cemetery, at least in terms of regular commuting (which I don't think Arlington Cemetery sees at all)
And back to the renaming, now WMATA need only tack on "Silver Hill" to the unnecessarily large placards at Branch Ave, and they should have filled their quota for tacking on area names to a station name (as I don't think there's much one can do with Benning Road, Minnesota Ave, or Southern Ave).
MOD Trip 6/19
NOTE: If you have not done so in my last batch of videos, you must download Quicktime 6.0 in order to view them. Thank you.
I will repost a new album, which contains the same as before, minus the City Hall tunnels and any media I took while I was on the roadbed. The footage of LL City Hall on the platform, as well as all the other action, will remain in place.
My sincere apologies to Mark W., Zman179, and all the NYCT employees on this board. On the next MOD trip in July, I will personally apologize to Bill Wall for this mistake I made.
I think it's just a coincidence and not an omen of things to come.
thanks,
tim
Regards,
Jimmy
I believe someone privately owns them, but for some reason never paid to either get them transported off the island, or parked in a secure location...
Or, I think a great idea would be to move on the grass further down on the exit ramp and act like your car just broke down and just snap a few quick pics and then take off. You won't get in any trouble as long as you don't try something like sneaking into the yard or something like that.
Hey I saw a guy riding his bike today right past there on the exit ramp!! I'm not kidding you. My dad started honking at him like crazy. I wonder if he was there to take pics of the yard too! Anyway, thats another idea, but you're more likely to get in trouble that way.
Well, in conclusion, I suggest that you ask Paul Matus about this, because I know that he is very familiar with the Bay Ridge Branch and has a lot of pictures of it which I'm sure includes the yard you're interested in.
-Broadway Buffer
AFIK, the LIRR still owns the Bay Ridge branch, even though the New York & Atlantic Railway runs freihjt on the line.
-Broadway Buffer
This is great. Now with all the litter bins gone, all the garbage will be on the street. Good idea.
There has never been garbage bins in London anyway because of the IRA terrorist issue that had been ongoing since '75.
There is a place for bus ticket machines, and blocking the entrance of busy subway stops isn't one of them. I haven't seen the report, but I suspect they are only suggesting that those machines could be relocated to somewheres less crowded. Been to Oxford St., only once and it was at night so I don't really have an idea as to whether there are other places to put these machines.
AEM7
Shouldn't be hard to find plenty of candidates, given the massive overstaffing I noticed in most Tube stations:)
They did the same thing on that silly tramway through the Black Country. Except there the reason was that the local yobbery kept vandalising the machines...
"They did the same thing on that silly tramway through the Black Country. Except there the reason was that the local yobbery kept vandalising the machines..."
That was the reason in Sheffield too. For some reason the Manchester vandals don't seem as bad - but then a lot of their tram stations are real stations (being ex-train stations), and maybe the yobs are more likely to vandalise a machine if it is just standing in the street. Anyway, Manchester still has off-vehicle ticketing. The new Nottingham tram system had conductors from the start (thus saving money on buying street ticket machines).
There are only two street stops in Birmingham and the Black Country. Okay, they did their best to obliterate the fact that there was a railway there before, but nevertheless it doesn't seem to run with a correlation between street running and vandalism.
The key problem now is that when the Baggies are at home the conductors can't get through the cars. This makes the days when it should make revenue actually turn out to be the days that it loses the most. Really what's needed is to staff the stations (which would require closing the superfluous ones - no bad thing when you consider that the reason its ridership is so low is that the short distance ridership has not materialised whilst the longer distance ridership is actually quite good) and install ticket barriers (something desparately needed at all WM local rail stations).
That certainly isn't my impression. In the busiest places I'd say New York's sidewalks are busier than London's pavements (in their busiest places).
New York (I guess I really mean downtown/midtown Manhattan here) is more pedestrian than anywhere I know of in the UK. The only place I've been that rivals it is Hong Kong. As a side issue, those are the only places (other than real third-world places) I know where man-powered carts are used in serious commercial goods transportation.
Just my impression, mind.
In any case, 1 trains are making all stops between 242 and 14, with extensive delays approaching 14 since only one pocket is available. There is no 2 train service in Manhattan; trains are laid up along the express tracks. (Due to a GO, there are shuttle buses between 96 and the Bronx.) The 3 is making all stops between 137/Broadway and Times Square; it appears that northbound 3 service is available at 34 as well.
I'm not sure what's happening at the Brooklyn end. Supposedly there are 2 and 3 shuttle trains terminating at Atlantic, with 4 service running through as normal, but that's not quite possible. Maybe the 4 is running local and the 2/3 shuttles express, or maybe the 4 is extended to New Lots with only a 2 shuttle.
Thanks for posting this David of Broadway.
(Isn't Railfanning fun ! )
Example - MoD trip photos look good on paper.
My issue is why they couldn't send down an extra T/O at 14st to be ready to move the train out Northbound instead of having the T/O change ends.. I didn't see a crew on that layed up southbound local....
On a Sunday Evening? Where you going to get a spare T/O, and how is he going to get there? On a subway Train?
: ) Elias
The T/O could have gotten down there the same way the passengers were getting down there: on a 1 train.
The 3 had extra crews because of its short service.
And there was a 1 train laid up on the SB local at 14. What happened to its crew?
The congestion was caused entirely by trains sitting too long in the one pocket at 14.
SubTALK.
Complete with a lion. :)
If the 4 is running express in Brooklyn, there's no way to turn 2 and 3 shuttles at Atlantic.
You don't have to tell me how you know. Mr. Brooklyn Local has demonstrated an obsession with R-142 signs and announcements, so I was trying to confirm that his report was based on where the actual trains were going.
Seems kind of strange that passengers at Eastern Parkway, GAP, and Nevins weren't provided with direct service to Manhattan. IMO, 4 trains should have run as they do at night, borrowing some crews and trains from the 2 and 3, with 2 shuttles running between Flatbush and Atlantic, express. (Atlantic is a better place to terminate than Nevins, so Manhattan-bound passengers get kicked off the train where they can transfer to the BMT. I assume that's why the north section of the 3 terminated at 42 even though it continued to 34 to pick up northbound passengers.) But perhaps there wasn't enough time to set up something like that.
I get on a downtown 1 at 116 at about 13:15, to head down to SF.
When we get to about 103, the C/R announces that because of the weekend G/O, etc there's no 2/3 service on the Lenox line - but I already knew that.
Then we pull into 96, the train sits there with the doors open for a minute or so (while a 2 sits on the express track with doors closed), and the C/R announces that due to a police investigation there is no 2 service at all in Manhattan, and the 3 is running local to SF; for service to Brooklyn take the TSq Shuttle to GCT and xfer to the 4/5. Ok. The train continues on its way down...
This message is repeated a few more times between 96 and 42, and there is a mass exodus at 42, presumably to head for Brooklyn service on the East Side.
Then we get to about 23rd and the C/R announces that due to a police investigation at Chambers, this downtown 1 train will be terminating at 14th Street to head back uptown. For further downtown service wait on the platform for the next train making all stops to SF.
Then at about 18th (with significant delay in progress) the C/R announces that due to a police investigation at Chambers, all downtown 1/3 service is terminating at 14th - for service to downtown and Brooklyn, take the L to Union Square.
By this point half the people in the car I was in were looking perplexed. One group of tourists on the 1 from Florida came and asked me for help, since I was probably about the only person who seemed to have any idea what was going on. I ended up leading them to the 4/5 at 14th, and from there to the WTC (and I'm not sure they even got there if there was a surface police investigation).
On the way off the 1 train, in the 14th station, and on the L platform I gave directions to a few more people who were equally confused.
When the crush-loaded (as usual) 4 train arrived at Union Sq it was running local; the express tracks were taped off, so I wasn't even convinced the 4 train we were on was going past Brooklyn Bridge until it switched to the express just north of BB station). On this train I ended up guiding another group of tourists to BB station, and another guy got on going in the wrong direction so I set him straight.
About the only guy who seemed to be happy was the musician in the passageway between the 1/2/3 and the L, whose revenues must have tripled in about 15 minutes.
Bottom line, I'm going to get a scanner and listen to it every time I'm on the subway from now on because I'm not going to depend on the announcements (which, now that much of fleet has been refurbished or replaced, is usually, though not always, audible).
Many hours later, I rode from 96 to 14 and back with one of my favorite C/R's on the 1, who makes entertaining announcements but doesn't always verify their correctness. He insisted that he had been informed that there was a shuttle bus from 14 to South Ferry, but I heard no such thing on my scanner and the S/A at 14 didn't know anything about a shuttle bus either.
(Some of his gems: "I apologize for the inconvenience -- but it's not my fault!" And after being stuck at 18 for an eternity, "Stand clear of the closing doors, thank G-d!")
Then again, depending on reception in the tunnels and the band range of my scanner, I may be privy to more information than the C/R is receiving (or paying attention to).
I'd also assume that there is a great deal of information passed to the C/R which is not passed on to the customers - either there's specific information about tracks and switches being out of service that would confuse riders (so it has to be transferred to relatively amgiguous, yet sheeple-friendly statements like "the 2 is running on the 5" or "the 1 is running express from 34 to 96" - does that mean it's stopping at 42 and 72 or not?)
There might also be information that's not released for fear of causing panic, or because technical problems or "national security" mandates dictate otherwise. For example (I don't know this for sure, but those who were on the trains that day can tell me), what was the information given to passengers stuck on trains during the blackout? Was any information given? Or were the people left to sit there in a dark, hot train stuck in a tunnel, not having any idea what's going on? Cell phones generally don't work in the tunnels, AM radio gets no reception at all (I've tried), and FM gets very weak reception only on a few stations in a few places (presumably ones that are closer to the surface or close to an exit so there's less metal and concrete for the signal to penetrate), so there's no outside source of information - you might as well be in the Black Hole of Calcutta.
A few months ago, I posted about an incident one morning on the B train. I had to get from Columbus Circle to Sheepshead Bay or Brighton Beach. My B train, with little warning, was taken out of service at W4. The C/R hadn't been told why, nor had the C/R on the D train behind it. It would have been helpful if the passengers had been told where the problem was so they could make alternative travel plans -- in my case, should I make my way down to the Q (to bypass a problem in Manhattan) or should I use the D or F to a relatively nearby destination in Brooklyn (to bypass a problem on the Brighton line)?
Eventually another B showed up, and just to annoy me further, it ran local in Brooklyn. I never did find out what had happened until I posted to SubTalk, and someone told me that there was a police investigation(?) at 7th Avenue. Apparently the information was being sent, but only over the BMT channel, not the IND channel, so B crews and passengers still in Manhattan were left out in the cold.
I would think so. If the C/R said "Battery Run" then it wouldn't stop at 42 and 72.
Well, let's see:
Station PAs weren't working - no power.
NYCT hand-held radios were working; however, the base stations at Control, the Towers and other field locations weren't - no power.
Train PAs worked until train batteries ran down.
For a while, train crews could give information to passengers, except they had no accurate information to give. I suppose it was possible to guess what had happened - after all, losing both AC and DC power at the same time doesn't happen often - but it probably wouldn't have been accurate (let's face it - I was home at the time, and it was almost two hours later when I found out the extent of the power loss. I just assumed it was a "local" problem and power would be back soon). So the short answer is - - Yes people were left to sit in a hot, dark tunnel with no idea what was going on.
Da Hui
One is crooked like a politician.
Tear it down!
Seriously -- most of them need cropping, rotating (perhaps just a bit), maybe some color correction. But I have to do that all manually.
Yes, you do a better job of making your photos look worse than they already do. Just leave them well enough alone. Only a couple-two-tree of them need to be fixed.
If I had shot into the sun (say, from the opposite platform), the train would have been a dark blob.
Matt
Da Hui
I'd say you need some filters for the outside photos.
Depends on the type of filter as to how much it costs.
Maybe someone else on here can recommend the best for the purpose of photographing trains. When I'm out on the rails I always have a polarizer with me at the least.
Your pal,
Fred
What in the uber phuck happened to that 2 train?
Da Hui
'Salaam' is talking about now, though. From the pictures, it looks as if there is a shed as well as a platform going in. A station? I saw that stuff being built myself at the end of last year. They had just put the steel skeleton up.
R-32.
Your pal,
Fred
Somebody better pee in the cup!
Are the runways on the same approach?(ie both have runways 18 or 17 or something close?)
AirForce Base: For SECURITY reasons, the Runways are not shown. Like it really matters, eh?
And about 3 miles due south:
The AFB controls all traffic, so it may have well been a controller error.
: ) Elias and the LION
You're right it doesn't matter...
Ellsworth Air Force Base
Rapid City, South Dakota, USA
Landing errors are far more common than you realize, it being the most difficult stage of any flight. Landing is the hardest, followed by take-off, then cruising.
British Midland has managed to put an aeroplane down on a motorway while approaching East Midlands (I think the plane landed on the M6 back in early 1980s or so), and sometimes when you hear pilots say "control tower told us to go around", it's another word for "oh shit we nearly landed in the wrong place". Singapore Airlines at one point landed on a taxiway, causing the plane to crash into some cranes and burst apart.
AEM7
So is that why the al Qaeda guy only wanted to learn how to fly in a straight line? :)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anyone with better luck on the 4 than I did?
-Chris
And if you mean something else, I got no clue what your trying to refer to.
I think that the next stop (for you) : ) is 76th Street!
That *IS* Manhattan in the background, and the train is on the outbound track. So wherever it is going, Manhattan is not in its near future.
Yes it does *look* like it is coming into Smith-9th, and maybe that is all that he meant by this, but the skyline is all wrong. That is MIDTOWN Manhattan with the Crysler building to your LEFT. If you were at Smith-9th you would see the WTC in that place if the WTC were still there, that is.
Elias
The picture does remind me of Smith/9.
No, not really.
-Chris
-Chris
That blue object just ahead of the train looks like an urn.
Your pal,
Fred
If anyone wants any MBTA stuff, let me know and I can bring them over.
AEM7
Have a great trip and don’t spend too much time underground! London is a great city for walking around–Bloomsbury comes to mind: walk from Tottenham Court Road to Russell Square with a stop at the British Museum. Or Aldwych (sorry no tube nowadays J) to Trafalgar Square with a stop at the Transport Museum. Or St Paul’s (detour inside and walk up to the Stone Gallery for a great view) to Monument (ditto). Or South Kensington to Hyde Park with a stop in the V&A, Science, Geological, Natural History Museums.
Much more history per square inch than even Boston!
Going to my sister's graduation, which is in Stansted Airport (well, not quiet, but that's the nearest railhead; her high-school is relatively inaccessible and it's easier just to say I'm going to Stansted Airport).
London is a great city for walking around–Bloomsbury comes to mind: walk from Tottenham Court Road to Russell Square with a stop at the British Museum. Or Aldwych to Trafalgar Square with a stop at the Transport Museum.
Yeah, I should really do all those. Too bad I would be "working" while over there, so won't have much free time...
Or South Kensington to Hyde Park with a stop in the V&A, Science, Geological, Natural History Museums.
Been there, done that to death, and we even made it to the Tate Modern at one point...
Much more history per square inch than even Boston!
That may be true, but when you spend three years living in fully-depreciated history with showers that don't work, drafty windows, no electrical outlets anywhere convenient, no broadband... you soon get turned off from history.
AEM7
All four of these have improved a lot recently [in the UK], especially the last.
To switch to another of your points - I would like some MBTA maps, etc., as I expect to be visiting Boston, with some railfanning time available, next spring.
Thanks, Yours, Fytton.
Do you mean those Cambridge Dons actually allowed their 13th Century building to be DRILLED so that the ethernet cables can go through??? What Treacherous Travesty is This!!??? Whatever happened to the "no drilling" rule? When I was at college, I witnessed a truck take a piece out of Gonville & Caius' relatively new 15th Century masionary because the truck LITERALLY WOULD NOT FIT on Trinity St. Instead of moving the bay window or having workmen saw a bit of off for safety, oh no, you mustn't damage the building... so we'll wait for a truck to hit it, so we can then widen the highway... reasoning that the history was accidentally damaged, and not torn down...
Kidding aside, I do enjoy Britain as a nation -- I just couldn't live there and deal with all the institutions and conservatism.
To switch to another of your points - I would like some MBTA maps, etc., as I expect to be visiting Boston, with some railfanning time available, next spring.
I'll run down to the carhouse and see if I can find those big maps they put up all around the system... those are rare, and the stopped handing them out a few years ago.
AEM7
While we are off topic - when I was an undergraduate in Cambridge 40 years ago, the electricity supply in central Cambridge was so poor due to voltage drop over the antiquated wiring, that the stores sold special low-voltage light bulbs specially for us in the colleges and other buildings in the city centre - the regular ones were too dim on the low voltage!
Even the instant showers, powered by a small electrical heater, don’t give nearly enough good hot water: you have to choose between hot but dribble, or tepid and a good flow.
That is one part of the UK I don’t miss.
However, I believe the UK electrical standard is better than the US, especially now that appliances come with plugs attached, and with the correct fuses too!
Except if you're lucky enough to have a house with an Ascot boiler. :-D
However, I believe the UK electrical standard is better than the US, especially now that appliances come with plugs attached, and with the correct fuses too!
Hmmmm... I'm sure I've replaced several 3-Amp fuses with 13-Amp ones. The thing which strikes me about our plugs compared to everyone else's is that they're massive!
The main characteristic of British 13A plugs is that if you leave one on the floor, the plug will either lie prongs down or prongs up. For anyone who has stepped on a plug prongs up (e.g. in the dark) they will know that it is one of the most painful experiences a person can have without requiring hospitalisation. More sensible designs have the prongs pointing sideways.
More sensible designs have the prongs pointing sideways.
When I did live in the UK, I would buy enough banks to allow all plugs to be plugged in simutaniously, and control the device through the switch on the bank. I have found myself doing the same thing with U.S. appliances, because many of them are unswitched or have switches so unsafe that I don't want to touch them.
AEM7
Oh, and I never stepped on a plug in the dark. I have never left plugs out in the middle of a room waiting for the unsuspecting foot! I leave plugs plugged in, so the electricity doesn’t leak out of the socket!
Which is the other American annoyance: all the sockets are 2 feet up the wall instead of at skirting board level so it’s harder to hide the wires.
Not a good idea. They make the fuses in different colours for good reasons.
I know the standard argument, although I have been somewhat cynical of the reasoning. So the logic goes like this: you should install the fuse that exceeds the rating of the appliance by the smallest margin: so a 100W lamp at 240V is 0.4 amps, and you should install a 3 amp (orange) fuse because if the lamp is drawing more than 0.4 amps then the chances are something is wrong.
Now, think about this for a moment. A fuse will not prevent an electrocution, because if you have 3 amps going through your body then you may as well be dead. Besides it's pretty hard to drive 3 amps through a human body with only 240V, since the body has such a high electrical resistance under normal circumstances. So the only thing the fuse will realistically prevent is an electrical fire due to excessive current draw. Right?
Now, I don't know if any of you has ever caused a short circuit on 240V. I have -- because of a badly designed shaver adapter, I grounded the live to the neutral (240V to 0V) with one prong of an American appliance. Because of the nature of the fault, it grounded the two prongs together BEFORE the appliance fuse. The result: a very loud bang, a white flash, vapourized metal coated the adapter plastic, and a blown main fuse (rated 60 amps). We had to call out the electricity board to fix it.
So, question: wouldn't any comparable electrical fault cause more than 13 amps of current to be drawn, therefore blowing out the largest fuse there is for an individual appliance? So what is the point of the 3 amp (orange) and 5 amp (black) fuses, unless you have one of those old-fashioned electrical system that did not support a full 13 amp?
AEM7
So, if your cable is rated for 13 amps, then there is no reason to install a 3 amp fuse, even if the appliance itself is rated for much less than 3 amps?
Wouldn't the filament blow before the fuse?
You are also protecting appliances from overheating and starting to burn or causing flammables near them to char.
Anyway, proper fusing depends on the application. In the National
Electrical Code, the purpose of fusing is to protect the supply
conductors, both against short-circuit and against overheating.
Conductors have a rated ampacity which can be de-rated for various
factors such as conduit fill, heat dissipation, etc. The fuse
is sized according to the conductor, with some exceptions such as
motor loads where it can be sized larger.
Now, fuses that are internal to equipment, such as a computer power
supply fuse, are there to protect the equipment. They would be
sized based on the current drawn by the equipment, the maximum
tolerable current, and the likely inrush current. For example,
a power supply fuse has to be sized a bit larger than the full-load
current to allow for inrush (especially switch-mode power supplies
with a primary-side HV capacitor).
Or be designed as a “slow-blow” fuse.
In this case, which country’s National Electrical Code are you referencing?!
But again, I’m surprised that plumbing codes allow this. If the standard would only allow non-return valves, then the Brits could convert to hot water cisterns at mains pressure and showers would work just fine!
That's the thing. Amazingly, they've come on a lot since those days. My parents' house in Birmingham has one and the only downside is there's about a 30 second delay before the water runs hot if no-one's been using hot water for a while. It's the perfect system for running a shower off.
I try and gather atleast 1 or 2 photos of each APM, and thats 1 that I only found photos so small there not worth it.
Thanks if you do so.
And since personnel from the mod trips allow it as it seems, then maybe its allowed rather then your 'taking advantage and it aint allowed speech'.
Last time I checked, the --BRASS-- was higher than 'the mod'.
MW has a point, bub.
Now go back to playing with yours...er trains, and quit bugging the adults. >_>
Sorry 2 hear that. Ye can always get a HotMail. :>
1Adult9
And I tried another sn's, but at the time I got aol, only 1 sn was made the master sn, and even now they got it where you can choose any others as master, but I got too much stuff into this sn, so I said f' it and just stuck with it. :/
It appears the third rail ended somewhere near the end of the platforms, and that they MOD'ers were crossing beyond where the third rail ends. So in actuality, they were no closer to the third rail than we were during the ERA CIY Tour.
Explain this to me.....WHO IN THE WORLD WOULD GIVE PERMISSION FOR PASSENGERS TO WALK ON SUBWAY TRACKS UNSUPERVISED?!?!?!?!?
What Dave did isn't as bad as what some of our more youthful Subalkers did (they continued to walk down the tunnel). All Dave did was cross over to the closed platform.
I wouldn't be suprised if the MOD trips aren't allowed to visit closed off areas anymore. Thankfully, the two most important areas (9th Ave, City Hall) have already been done, so I can claim to have been down in these areas at least once. Don't think I'll see lower Bergen St. in my lifetime.
Ride the F G.O. Although it doesn't stop there, you'll see pretty much all you need to see from riding through.
look on street level.... then you'll C why mark is right about removal.
and before we go barking over having other abandoned station pics, ask yourself
what makes this 1 different from the other abandonees.
The handout on the MOD trips usually includes a reminder. Was it left off this time? Even without a reminder, it's common sense.
Maybe this is splitting hairs, but back around 1997/1998 the Transit Museum hosted a trip that went down there, via the stairway; a number of individuals went way down the trackways, including some TM volunteers wearing orange vests... at least one of whom is a regular SubTalker today.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have some; one of these days I'll try and dig them out. My wife has me scanning a lot of her father's slides right now in an effort to preserve them before they're totally faded out, though, so it will take a while.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What tracks? AFAIK the tracks don't continue past the bumper blocks.
It makes no difference if there are tracks present or not.
I should know...I was on that fantrip, which was my first one ever on the NYC subway system. The ticket price for that E.R.A. excursion was ten dollars (in 1976 money).
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
What no one bothered to mentioned was this: People were eating on the train, they were sleeping on the train (even putting feet on the seats, see my photo/video album) and at one point, the entire sacred train was trashed to the point that some liquid spilled onto one of the end cars. Us Subtalkers had nothing to do with what was going on inside the train, save for the playfighting and rollsign changes. We respected the train, and we paid $40 to have fun. We didn't eat on the train, only one Subtalker slept on the train but there were other non-Subtalkers who lied down, having no respect for a vintage SMEE train. The mess in the rear car was so bad, that the RCI assigned to the train ended up being the CTA for the same train, cleaning up a nasty spill (I helped out by giving my napkins). People were standing between cars while the train was moving, why nothing was said about that?
As for the City Hall incident, we had to be VERY CAREFUL walking from the Slant car to our car. Bill Wall said to come back from lunch at 1:45 PM, there were no further instructions to stay away from any tunnels beyond the station. There was no 3rd rail anywhere and for most of us, it was our first time seeing that station. On the May 23rd trip, the staircase at 9th Ave Lower was SO DANGEROUS, but we were allowed to use them with the usual caution "just watch your step and be careful.". If there were instrucions NOT to enter the area, then I and everyone else will heed to them. I feel very sorry, and apologize for my mistake for entering the tunnel. I just hope this won't spell the end of these trips, it shoud not be for a mistake we were not warned in the first place.
When I say "what else is new", it means how ignorant a few parents are when it comes to protecting their kids. I've seen parents holding their 4 year old...as the kid was closer to the edge of the tracks. If anyting, the parent should walk on the outside and the kid safely on the inside.
Bill merely caved in AFTER you all went onto the trackbed and allowed it to continue. He was NOT a happy man after that.
As we can see,common sense is in short supply when it comes to SOME rail fans....It should be noted that because of this,future trips could be in jepardy. These guys should learn to THINK BEFORE THEY ACT!
What do you mean "your"? Only a few entered the trackbed, and I was not one of them. I chastized those who did afterwards. I never ventured off the west platform.
The fact remains that they knew better,and KNOW better...and a slap on the wrist won't change anything...
I think common sense should have prevailed. Under normal circumstances going onto the roadbed (abandoned or not, MOD trip or not) would not be allowed. I think someone should have asked Bill Wall first. Never assume that because no instructions or warnings are given that it is OK to do something - especially in the subway.
I also think that from now on we all have to look out for everyone else - that is, while you are exploring and taking pictures if you see someone doing something "stupid" such as that youngster going toward the Slant or others making a mess, you say something. If I had been there I am sure I would have said something about those making a mess with the intent of having them removed from the trip.
BTW - David - playfighting has no place on the MOD trips either. You wouldn't do it on a road train why do it there? In that same regard - if you are as old as you say you are then I say act your age.
Am I saying that we have to police ourselves? Maybe not quite that drastic but we all have to do our part to make sure that these trips go off smoothly and nothing can happen to reflect negatively on railfans.
Well said my friend. There are those here who think these trips will go on forever, just because. That is not the case. They need to realize that there are a lot in the TA who don't know why the company bothers with this. Should anything happen it will be just the excuse they have been waiting for to stop them !
If you're "stuck" on a subway train for 7+ hours with a couple of breaks you might get a little bored. It's only human.
Eliminates Boredom.
I do not.
Hope they don't ruin it for the rest of us