The Express freight service was rationalized. The Warrington plan tried to make heavy use of express to cover passenger costs. The problem was that in most cases Amtrak has to like offer super cut rates to win traffic and the rates did not cover all the various costs including passenger irritation. Gunn rationalized the service and cut it from many routes. However, it was not canceled outright as was widely reported. For example train 41/40 the 3 Rivers still carries about 10-25 express and roadrailers per trip. The Capitol Limited has about 5 express box cars per trip.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Your pal,
Fred
Da Hui
Well, maybe those R42 cars might speed things up, because those 68's aren't doing the job up in the Bronx.
W Broadway Local
I go to school and reside during the school year at the Illinois Institute of Technology in Chicago, whose small campus is divided by the CTA Green line, bordered by the Rock Island Metra line, and next to the Red (Dan Ryan) line. Here are two pics taken by the school of the north end of new dormitories (not mine) and a view looking north through "the tube" over our new student center (with the dorms on the immediate left).
My handle is the former name of the current "35-Bronzeville-IIT" Green Line station at the south end of campus.
Robert
The Green line rehab kept most of the original structure (although most stations were replaced). The footings were all replaced and the stucture was renewed. The current renovation on the Douglas part of the Blue Line (http://www.chicago-l.org/operations/lines/DouglasRehab/index.html, go to the bottom of "Douglas History" for some pics) involves replacing most of the structure because it was too bad to fix. :(
They seem to try to save what they can. They are slowly "renewing flange angles" around the system, mostly on the North Side Main. This raised a stink when some workers caught a house on fire by cutting out rivets without hanging up fireproof mats next to the house. Slow work, but basically they have a new span when they are done. It's too bad they bolt the pieces back together. Nothing looks better than a good rivet job.
Matt
Why is the El structure in your photo so wide? Was there once a 3rd track there or something?
Matt
Matt
Could this be for the governance of employees, but then why would it be on a public board?
The Gold Line route would pass through Arcadia, Monrovia, Duarte,
Irwindale, Azusa, Glendora, San Dimas, La Verne, Pomona and
Claremont.
The light rail's inaugural 13.7- mile stretch, from Union Station in
Los Angeles to Sierra Madre Villa Avenue in Pasadena, opened in July.
Construction will soon begin on a 6-mile second leg of the Gold Line,
from Union Station to Atlantic and Pomona boulevards in East Los
Angeles.
The report examines the proposed Montclair route "mile by mile,' said
Habib Balian, interim CEO of the Gold Line Construction Authority.
Sites have been picked for 12 train stations, one in each city plus
an additional stop near the proposed Monrovia Nursery development in
Azusa, a 500- acre property on which as many as 1,250 houses and
condominiums may be built. Azusa voters will decide that matter in a
city special election Tuesday.
Like the Pasadena Gold Line, the light rail will travel to Montclair
along a Burlington Northern Santa Fe right-of-way but parts of these
tracks are still periodically used by freight trains.
As such, the construction authority will have to figure out how to
build a passenger system while still accommodating the freight
traffic. Along some stretches, that could mean adding a third track
for the freights, or working out a shared use of the tracks possibly
during the Gold Line's non-peak hours, Balian said.
The width, height and wheel base of freight trains would fit on light
rail tracks and would clear the overhead electrical wires that power
the Gold Line trains, he said.
Much of the Montclair route will run at ground level, as compared to
the construction challenges of the Pasadena Gold Line: its long
elevated portion through Chinatown, its "street- running' stretch
down the middle of narrow Marmion Way in Highland Park, and its
underground sections below Highland Park and Old Pasadena, Balian
noted.
"In Pasadena, we were tunneling beneath 100-year-old, unreinforced
brick buildings,' Balian said. Along the Montclair route, much of the
builders' focus will be on the roughly 140 street-level rail
crossings and the assorted railroad bridges that span flood control
channels, the Foothill (210) Freeway, the San Gabriel River and
assorted streets.
"Those would all have to be rebuilt or expanded' to make room for a
second or possibly third set of railroad tracks, Balian said.
"This is really a much simpler route. It's actually quite ideal for
light rail, in its location, intersections and station (sites),'
Balian said.
Unlike the Pasadena Gold Line, the Montclair extension would have
passenger parking at all of its stations, Balian said.
The environmental impact report must take into account four options
for the corridor: that nothing would be built; that only bus system
and surface street improvements such as traffic signal
synchronization would be implemented along the route; and that the
light rail would be built only to Irwindale; or that the passenger
train route be constructed all the way to Montclair.
All 12 cities along the route have officially backed that fourth
option as their "preferred alternative.' The construction authority's
board of directors also will have to approve the environmental impact
report before the agency could seek federal government certification
and funding.
Meanwhile, Balian said lessons learned from planning, designing and
building the Pasadena Gold Line will be put to use in the Montclair
project.
Residents of Pasadena and Mount Washington fought the construction
authority, demanding unsuccessfully that several rail crossings be
put underground. South Pasadena recently negotiated a settlement with
the construction authority and the MTA, operators of the Gold Line,
over problems related to vibrations and train noise from bells, horns
and the screech of steel train wheels on steel tracks.
With its focus shifting east, the construction authority will soon
move its headquarters as well. In June, the agency will leave its
Fair Oaks Avenue offices in South Pasadena and relocate to Huntington
Drive in Monrovia.
The draft environmental impact report, which is several hundred pages
long, is available online at www.metrogoldline.org
THE GOLD LINE SHOULD LINK WITH THE BLUE LINE .......DAMNIT !
So if anyone is intrested in helping please email me.
Andy
http://community.webshots.com/user/lstmysock11
Are runs are Monday through Friday. There are no scheduled MU trips on the weekends.
All trains have GCT as there southern terminal.
HUDSON LINE Southbound
# 720 Lv Scraborough 716AM
# 722 Lv Croton-Harmon 719AM
# 726 Lv Irvington 741AM
HARLEM LINE Southbound
# 512 Lv North White Plains 648AM
# 516 Lv North White Plains 705AM
# 522 Lv North White Plains 733AM
# 528 Lv North Withe Plains 757AM\\
HUDSON LINE Northbound
# 755 Lv GCT 517PM to Croton Harmon
# 763 Lv GCT 554PM to Croton-Harmon
HARLEM LINE Northbound
# 515 Lv GCT 744AM to North White Plains
# 359 Lv GCT 504PM to Crestwood
# 569 Lv GCT 610PM to North White Plains
# 573 Lv GCT 635PM to North White Plains
# 577 Lv GCT 702PM to North White Plains
The best of these runs if you are based in NY is # 515 which leaves GCT at 744AM and stops only at 125 Street and White Plains. Since it runs against the current of traffic its not overly crowded and has a nice express run.
The current six car M-7 set runs as follows
# 718 Lv Tarrytown 712AM
# 771 Lv GCT 617PM for Tarrytown
The M-7 tainsets protects a run formerly covered by the M-3's.
Its always possibe that on any given day there may be an equiptment substitution.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Zach
D to Brighton Beach!!
50 posts to go!
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Part of subtalk history
The (4 ) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Chuck Greene
It really doesn't matter who posts with that certain thread number - It's irrelevant and silly, So let's get back to trains...Just because you or anyone else posted at that certain mark doesn't make it history what so ever - It's called post whoring.
Acela
Chuck Greene
For not being able to read and for disrespecting the wishes of our moat gracious webmaster.
I've learned my lesson, irrelevant posts aren't taken lightly at all
so I won't make posts like this ever again. Thats a promise. I never hoped that my post would turn out this way when I was making it.
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Find someplace else to play your childish games. Your crap isn't worth keeping on Dave's servers.
OooO!@O I'm goNNA geT poSt # 7000000000000!!!1111
No, ME!
Nah, I am.
No, MEeeee!
YeeaahhH!!!! We're ReeeEEEEaaaAAAAlll railFans!
David
I hope that was a rhetorical questions because the answer seems fairly obvious to me. :)
Thanks for pointing out another example of why we need a moderated forum.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Keep up the great work!
Your pictures are over 300 KB in size, which is far too big for a website. It takes too long for them to down load, and it uses up band width. Yes, I know Tripod is a free site, but they will cut you off for a while if you use too much band width.
Photos need not be more than 50 or 60 KB tops.
So look at your photo properties. There is no need to exceed 96 pixels per inch on any web page, afterall an 800 pixel monitor displays 72 pixels per inch, and a 1024 pixel monitor displays 96 pixels per inch.
So make the pixel size smaller.
Also, when you save a .jpg it gives you the option of what quality to use, I use a minimum quality size (different applications will have different numbers but all do somewhat the same thing.)
So dumb them down a little bit too.
I know, some people will bitch at me saying that they want to download a better quality picture for some purpose.
Tell 'em: Oh Yeah, well not on my dime, but write to me and I'll send you a better copy.
pixels = picture elements per inch (as they appear on your computer monitor). So if you save a photo at 600 pixels (some cameras will do this~ Excellent quality~ for your PRINTER!) but on the screen that one inch will take up most of the screen!
dots per inch = a printer's designation (look at a halftone photo in your newspaper) This is what you color printer thinks in. To print something, yes, push the pixels up and also save at a better quality.
Still, I'd not push the pixels up above 300 unless you have a humongous computer with lots of memory and disk space.
As far as your computer application is concerned they are the same thing: but watch what they are trying to tell you in the monitor size vs the print size.
Elias
Pentagon Station...
Opening: 7/1/1977
Location: Alongside I-395, beneath the southeast side of the Pentagon itself, Arlington County, VA
Alignment: Underground
Platfrom: Side/Island. Read below.
Ceiling: Waffle
Routes: Blue/Yellow
Additional features: Bellmouth located in the tunnel outbound of the station, hinting at the location of the start of a long-ago proposed route along Columbia Pike in Arlington. While the route has obviouly never been implemented, the spur provision was built in anyway... maybe WMATA is just biding their time... Also features blue and yellow illuminated signage over the tube at the inbound end of the station to announce which line is arriving. Yellow for Mt Vernon Sq-7th St trains, and Blue for Addison Road. The only location of such a sign at the inbound end of a station. The outbound side is lower than the inbound, with an extensively high ceiling vault (the ceiling vaults both sides of the island... read below.
Okay, enough mystery. Pentagon has side platforms, but not the traditional type of sidewall... the entrance (which is from the Metrobus loading island) leads to a mezzanine which drops you on the inbound platform. You'd initially think the station to be a single-track affair, but look again... the outbound track is passed over as you walk to the inbound, and passengers must take the stairs from the inbound platform to get to the outbound. This is done because the Blue and Yellow lines split north of the station, and WMATA apparently has a Pennsylvania Railroad complex... the split is a flying junction (inbound Blue flies over oubound Yellow; the diverge/merge occurs on separate levels) made to prevent at-grade crossings, something Pennsy was notorious for (just look at 52nd Street Junction in West philadelphia). The tracks realign their grade south of the station (Pentagon City being the next stop, and having sidewall platforms AND a crossover nearby) to run evenly. Looking across the tracks from an outbound train, you'll see the wall that is actually the support of the inbound platform, thus giving the stop a side platform look with doors opening on the left. It even confused me the first time I went through, and when I heard trains passing that I didn't see, I got REALLY confused until I went upstairs and saw the other track... The ceiling is standard height for the inbound side, but much higher for the sunken outbound. Knowing how high the vault actually is, seeing the plaques with the name on the inbound side looks strnage, especially if you look from the outbound side overlook to the inbound wall. The appearance on the inbound platform makes the station look more like a single track stop with a lower level. You can see that there's no definite wall, but the vault doesn't just end... looking out the side of a train, you probably won't see the lower platform easily. The only way out of here is by bus; there is no parking, and you can't just walk into the Pentagon willy-nilly... If you actually need to get somewhere, try Pentagon City or Crystal City. This stop, despite the development (includng the Pentagon) around it, is almost as remote as the nearest inbound Blue stop... and we all know how remote THAT is... Transfers made here can be easily made elsewhere - the stop could get away with being marked as shared but not transfer on the maps (the Blue and Yellow meet again at L'Enfant Plaza, which is the next inbound stop for Yellow anyway), while the corridor is shared by them to the south. However, for all purposes of simplicity and convenience, it is a transfer stop, and for good reason: Despite the immediate transfer again if going on a northbound Yellow train, this remains a diverging point. If you need Yellow and mistakenly board Blue, you CAN just ride around via I Street corridor, but it's a LONG haul...
I give Pentagon **** in rating. I personally prefer it later-to-be-discussed sister station, given how much more spacious it is.
It's really amazing what the difference it makes to have Rosslyn's mezzanine on the surface, while Pentagon's mezzanine is at platform level. It doesn't affect the lower level, but on the upper level, it just makes Rosslyn look a lot "cleaner", with no kiosk blocking the views, and also a little more tranquil, since there's no farecard vending noise, no noise related to the station manager kiosk, and no faregate noise.
All in all, it makes Rosslyn one of my favorite stations. Also partly the reason that when I visit DC, I consider Rosslyn my "home base" in DC, where I go to the second-level terrace at Rosslyn Center to gather my thoughts, relax, etc. It's a nice place to go.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Despite my residing in Philly, I have a sort of "home base" in the DC Metro - L'Enfant Plaza. You ever ride out on a day I'm railfanning, I'm probably parked there, usually on the upper level. Just don't look for me in rush hour, I've had enough fun washing the footprints off the back of my shirts.
If I do, I'll let you know. I already have an idea of where I'm going... a few places I haven't been to in a few trips: Huntington, Fran-Spring, New Carollton, Addison Road, Branch Ave, Shady Grove (was there in November, but slept most of the trip), Vienna (haven't been out the Orange Line WEST since 1999), and I'll park myself at L'Enfant Plaza for about 15 minutes when I get there initially.
Guaranteed: Around 12:00 PM-2:00 PM, I'll head for Pentagon City to see what's what in the mall.
Less so: I'll park myself in Rosslyn and/or Pentagon.
btw, speaking of the Blue/Yellow alignment... when in the world are they EVER going to build Potomac Yard Station? Or has it been dropped?
and yet again: I took a CLOSE look at a 1984 pic on the site. Apparently, at least since 1984, they've used the wall plaque signs. Meaning that since before my first visit (1988), they were there. I just didn't notice... scratch that, I saw ONE at Federal Triangle... The pic, interestingly enough, is at Archives. Yes, just "Archives". No suffix on the plaque or pylons. When is it they actually renamed it "Archives-Navy Mem'l"? I seem to recall the original name still existing on my first visit. Was that done the same year as Gallery Place?
Yellow could do Mt Vernon, Fort Belvoir and then over to the NS/Amtrak tracks south of Lorton (or just north of it), and then into Woodbridge... would be nice if both went there... Or if Yellow ran north under Georgia Avenue to Silver Spring.
Actually as I recall the ARS maps show future extension going as far as Fairfield which is south of Hybla Valley but short of Fort Belvoir. And yes the bulkheads at the ends of the tail track tunnels south of Huntington (C15) can be knocked out to extend the line.
None of the ARS maps that I have seen over the years showed any future extension of the J route south of the existing terminal at Springfield-Franconia (J03).
Chris Zimerman, chairman of the WMATA board of directors presently has a hardon for lite rail along with a number of other politicians for future fixed guide way transit projects.
John
To clarify, my "home base" is actually outside of fare control, on a balcony with quick escalator and elevator access to the station. It's the building that the Rosslyn Station mezzanine is in, Rosslyn Center. Let me show you.
My home base is the second-level balcony shown here. Notice the blank Metro pylon on that level.
Provides a good view of buses coming by, airplanes flying out of National, plus there's usually a good breeze going there.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Then again, I only exit in DC at Union Station when it's time to leave.
But yes... L'Enfant Plaza... you'll see me on the upper level, either side, at the north end (where the sound of the train crossing the crossover switch is best). If you're on Blue/Orange and need me, try Stadium-Armory or FCSW. (the former because... I don't know, something draws me to that station.)
The forms used the cast the train hall vault in Rosslyn (C05) were also used to cast the train hall vault in the Pentagon (C07) station. The Pentagon train hall was pored after the Rosslyn train hall. Train control room is on the north end lower level. Both ends of the station have traction power tie breakers on the lower level. The cooling tower for the station air conditioning is located in the same structure as the traction power substation above the connecting tunnels on the south side of VA I-395. Oh and the center of the platform is 26,133" (7965.34m) form the zero chaining point at the crossing of the of the two train halls in Metro Center (C01).
John
Lest I forget, this was ANOTHER one not used as a transfer station at first. Originally, despite the split-level island platform, this stop was served ONLY by Blue line trains, not seeing a Yellow Line run until the end of April, 1983 when the Yellow Line opened from Gallery Place to National Aiport. Until then, it was just a VERY architecturally interesting sight...
Mark
I'll throw this one to John, you, and Oren: Had they actually built the line along Columbia Pike, would the junction there be grade separated as well?
Mark
You were included, don't feel bad.
And I take it from Oren's answer, Pentagon would have had grade separated junctions at both ends... I wonder where (if there is one) the bellmouth is for the inbound side south of Pentagon.
Btw... John, if you read this, you're gonna love this one... next in line is Point Zero of the Metro System.
And the plot thickens (can't you just hear the music)
I'm starting to get more RSVP's from people that will make it on the 19th....plus, I'm posting the event on other transit boards, like btco.net for those up in the Bawlmer area...
John, do me a favor---place a post on the news-group that you and I frequent...
Thanks,
Mark
All I can say is, be sure to bring any and all reference material you may have on the Metro----you'll need it---some questions will be historical in nature, while others will be more technical----John told me some of the items in the prize pack----much better than I ever could have anticipated----So, be sure to tell your friends, tell your lovers, tell your others.....just be there on the 19th.
Most if not all of the readers on the USNET news groups that this would apply to are advocates and not fans. Besides the people on USNET that would be interested in participating would all ready know of this event from this forum.
So I am not going to post are little get together on USNET.
John
I'll throw this one to John, you, and Oren: Had they actually built the line along Columbia Pike, would the junction there be grade separated as well?
I am jumping in here a little late. Yes the junction there will be grade separated. As a matter of fact the provisions at the south end of the station are a mirror image of the existing L route junction at the north end of the station. Almost everything is there. Third rail conduits, signal wiring conduits, switches machine control conduits, floating slab under where the # 14 switches will be placed, and as I mentioned traction power tie breaker. It’s been more the 25 years sense I walked that tunnel, I don’t recall if the slots are in the track bed to allow for the switches machine throw rods, but I would hazard a guess that they are there as well.
If WMATA follows their normal signal numbering nomenclature the signal protecting the junction switch on lower level outbound track C2 will be C07 36, against the normal flow of traffic from track 2 off the Colombia Pike Route C07 46, on the existing C route track C2 C07 38. On the upper level inbound track 1 C07 42 will protect the inbound traffic from the Colombia Pike Route, C07 34 from the existing C route track C1, against the normal flow of traffic on track C1 C07 32. The switches will be numbered lower level outbound track C2 #7 and upper level inbound track C1 #5.
John
Hm... now if they went NORTH from Rosslyn into Georgetown... which is REALLY something one of either Orange, Blue, or Silver should do; WMATA could probably find some way or another to bring the lines back together before Stadium-Armory. Then again, if the current Grosvenor to Silver Spring headways on Red are coming off with no backups, I guess the Rosslyn/Stadium-Armory corridor can manage three separate lines.
There are walkways from the Pentagon Transit Center to Army-Navy Drive..
Mark
Need stations Rosslyn to McPherson Sq inclusive: Just wait on Blue
Need stations Metro Center to all points east inclusive, both lines: Transfer at L'Enfant Plaza
Boarded wrong train: Ride inbound until they cross again.
Need Blue Stations from Yellow: Transfer between Pentagon and King Street inclusive
Need Yellow Stations from Blue: From Rosslyn and Arlington Cemetery, head to Pentagon or stations beyond as far as King Street. From the DC side of the Potomac, go to L'Enfant Plaza, or to Metro Center, then Red to Gallery Pl-Chinatown to Yellow.
Need Blue Stations from Orange: Should not even need to THINK about that one...
Need Yellow Stations from Orange: Tricky. From Federal Center SW and east, use L'Enfant Plaza. From the I Street tunnel, use L'Enfant Plaza, OR jump to Red at Metro Center and then to Yellow at Gallery Pl-Chinatown (luck on timing with you, it's faster than riding through on the Orange train). At Federal Triangle or Smithsonian, go to L'Enfant Plaza. From Rosslyn and west, change to Blue at Rosslyn and then to Yellow Pentaon to King Street inclusive.
Need Green or Red from Blue: Transfer between King Street and Pentagon inclusive to ellow and take that to the applicable transfer station.
Not trying to discredit Pentagn as a transfer station. It's just got too many alternatives, mostly due to L'Enfant Plaza being immediately next inbound on Yellow, and a point for ANOTHER Blue/Yellow transfer. IIRC, it's also the only point where the lines divide going inbound.
And... Mike, Oren, John... subwayworld poses an interesting question I've been wondering myself. What exactly IS the technical term for those wallsigns at the diverging end of the platforms at such stops as Pentagon, Rosslyn, and L'Enfant Plaza? I assume you know which ones to which I refer.
Red other than Metro Center: change at Gallery for Yellow
Orange Vienna branch: change at Rosslyn
Blue west of L'Enfant not including L'Enfant and including Metro Center: No change of trains
Orange east of L'Enfant not including L'Enfant: change at L'Enfant for Yellow
Green: Change for Yellow somewhere
Arlington Cemetery: Blue
If you are going to F/S or Van Dorn, it is GENERALLY faster to just take Blue all the way around.
If Blue shows up first along the common stretch, it is generally faster to wait for Yellow, even on a Sunday afternoon (saves about 2-3 min). There are exceptions to this at times such as early Sunday mornings and possibly very late at night.
I've been wondering the same thing myself. Perhaps "fliplight" signs?
For lack of a better name "Next Train Going To Sign"
John
Some of the tourists though, just annoy me...
Will you be joining us on the 19th for the scavenger hunt?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn )
The only place that it runs elevated is in BROOKLYN!
It has to be on the NEW LOTS LINE!
: )-
Elias
KOIN
Tri-met
The best, a complete guide to MAX and development!!!
You know i'm going to save the last one and use that as ammo :)
Can anyone find any decent stuff? And why aren't you all out there taking pics!!
TBO.COM
TAMPA - Winning a five-figure pay bonus after 14 years in charge of the local bus system, Sharon Dent announced Friday that she will leave amid questions about her management and a state law enforcement inquiry.
Dent, 56, denied she was leaving because of a recent county audit that found HARTline violated its spending policies, paid for unfinished work and shifted money from buses to a tourist-geared $56 million streetcar system. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement also is conducting a preliminary investigation of alleged spending irregularities.
I always thought the on-board ads were limited compared to those bus wraps. People must not know you can put ads inside the buses and trolleys. With all the billions in streetcar development, and sponsership, and private runs, one would think a retaurant or hotel would've put some ads up in there!
Jeff should be in marketing W
Executive summary: We were stopped by police for a polite conversation which lasted about an hour, involved the two of us and about ten people whose paychecks come from our money, and resulted in us being sent on our way after both of us agreed to delete (and, of course, were checked to respect the agreement) ALL pictures from our (digital) cameras.
It kind of started out wrong when an operator of the train a picture of which we were trying to take sounded a long "Booooooo!!" with his horn, and reached for his wireless. The next episode was at the Liberty State Park station, when an orange-vested security guard told us, "Your liberty just doesn't happen to extend to taking pictures here." (OK, OK, the actual phrase used was "you guys can't take pictures here.") By the time we arrived to 22nd St., I guess the system was on full alert and quite ready to deal with the obvious threat just mounting before their eyes.
The conversation started as usual, a Bayonne cop approaching, followed soon by a colleague, IDs, SSNs, occupation, status, calling Al Qaeda Directory Assistance (or so I believe) to see if we happened to be listed - then the fun gradually unfolded. First things first, let's state it here so there's no further misconception: We were stopped because we were taking pictures of SOFT TARGETS. So, from now on, if you are caught railfanning and asked what you are doing, you shall reply: "I am taking pictures of soft targets." Got that? Good.
Naturally, we were asked to hand over our cameras so our protectors could share in the railfan part. Here comes my Big Slip of the Day... Remember that big thing being completed on Hudson & Essex, by the waterfront? Well, LGA-bound planes yesterday were flying right behind that building - if you stay on the inland side of it. Pick the right moment, and you've got a picture with a plane flying right into the thing. You've guessed it - here we have a cop staring at such a picture that my faithful camera obediently showed him. You should've looked at his expression.
Did that turn them on, or they'd been thrilled enough irrespective of that - be that as it may, that's when reinforcements started to flow in. All in all, we had the pleasure of meeting: the two cops' boss, our friend the security guard from LSP, about three NJT cops (who were, incidentally, the least interested - stood there without speaking a word as far as I recall), a couple of fare inspectors, and The Plain-Clothes Guy on whom more later. That adds up to what?.. uhu, ten. I think it is generally believed that you should be mounting an offensive at no less than 3:1; here we were at 5:1. Nice to realize that these guys know a thing or two about tactics.
To give credit where it's due, the conversation was quite polite all the time through, and more than once were we told that we were not being accused of anything, and even that (believe it or not) they didn't believe that we were terrorists. (To give further credit where it's due, one of the cops did at one moment say, "You see, if you were being accused, you'd be in handcuffs by now.") Why the fuss, then? Quoting almost verbatim: "Four years ago, no one would have paid any attention to what you were doing. But *you know what the times are like right now*. Obviously, if someone is taking pictures of soft targets, we have to make sure there's nothing, you know, in the making. That's exactly what we are doing."
Well, here's one thing that they might not know. There used to be a country. A big country. Bigger than this country, as it happens. I was born there. In that country, since 1917, times were always or almost always we-knew-what. Specifically, that country was surrounded by a ring of enemies (the enemies weren't terrorists, but they were worse - for they actually exploited the working people, not to mention a number of other grave sins), and we in that country had to watch out - because the enemies didn't nap; they were constantly making plans to annihilate us, the leaders of the free world, the prophets of democra... excuse me, that was of course communism. And so we all had to be alert. Errmmm, by now I think I forgot why I recalled this.
Anyway, so we spent about an hour talking to these nice gentlemen, the gentlemen walking away and making calls to various undisclosed locations and engaging in some undisclosed conversations, until the crown jewel aka The Plain-Clothes Guy appeared on the scene. I think they announced him as the local antiterrorist expert or whatnot - to be honest, by that time I was somewhat lost in the panopticum and was not quite so alert (very, very bad of me! Well, I'm still considering turning myself in for the loss of alertness. My revolutiona... no, democratic consciousness does hurt me; can I build my defense around this, at least?). The Plain-Clothes Guy was sort of sharp and terse (I suspect he wouldn't be allowed to wear plain clothes otherwise), and presently came The Offer of the Day.
The terms of The Offer of the Day went as follows. Either
(i) you surrender your cameras (or just the CF cards), which we will take with us to the appropriate office, examine what's there, and return to you at some unspecified point in the future,
or
(ii) you erase all your images here and now, and that will end our conversation, with the two of you actually being allowed to set your own course.
At the end of the day, we agreed that we should have surrendered the cards had their capacity been 128M, we would have had the right to hesitate at 256M, but probably did the right thing with the 512M cards that we both had :-) We're not exactly millionaires after all. Still, somewhere in the back of my mind there's this uneasy feeling of having subjugated without being guilty of anything. Then again, I happen to be a busy person, and contacts with the FBI or whatever that could be, are not on my calendar for the next few months. What would you people do?
To top off a long story, a practical question. Does anyone know for sure, *with reference to sources*, whether it's legal to:
(i) take pictures of HBLR trains while standing on public property (I'm rather sure I know the answer! But still...);
(ii) do same while standing on publicly accessible NJT property, like station platforms (trespassing is a separate and clear matter, of course)?
Unfortunately, even if my friend and I had the time, it doesn't look like we have a case against our polite companions, with no property having been seized, and with us having erased those images voluntarily. Still, I'd love to know. For one thing I'm now certain about: Not overexcited as I used to be about that particular system, now I *will* come back there and take those pictures again. Probably not tomorrow, but I will.
I'm not a US citizen, but had I been one, here would come one vote against Mr Bush.
Well, perhaps one or a few will come anyway, if any of those who read or hear my story, get the message.
I also want to mention that there is a good article in Vanity Fair magazine a few months ago pertaining to New York and all the laws under Bloomberg. A driver(can't remember if it was a towncar or cabbie) mentioned that all the laws and living in NYC reminded him of what it was like in the Ukraine. I forget the writer, but if you're familiar with the magazine, the writer did everything illegal that day hoping to get some tickets(sitting on subway steps to tie showlaces, sitting on two train seats, sitting on a milkcrate, smoking inside the cab, etc).
"I'm not a US citizen, but had I been one, here would come one vote against Mr Bush. "
Move to philly. Too bad the hoopla was in FL and not PA. After they reported that a very well brided judge allowed non-resident Russians from the Northeast the ability to vote with an "intreptor"(guy who tells you who to pick). Of course thats not including the usual dead guys voting, or violence at the polls.
Also, I would've deleted the pictures too, I would be suspicious about how long, or even if I get my camera or memory card back(and in good condition even).
How absurd, do they question people taking pictures of the Empire State building now too?
Welcome to the Police State, folks...
Yes, indeedy do. My sister was stopped by security personnel at the Empire State Building in 2003 for taking this little gem:
She was told that it was a security violation to take a picture of that (why?) and that she could be arrested for that. Mind you, though, she and the group she was with visited the Empire State Building to do the whole observation-deck thing, where they took lots of pretty pictures of practically the entire New York City skyline with no problems.
It seems to make no sense where they enforce things. Oh, we yearn for those carefree days of a few years ago...
Ben F. Schumin :-)
WTF! This isn't IRAN!
He happened to be working, something you know very little about.
Well, even NJ Transit has to hire its share of idiots...
Aren't you just adding to the paranoia by doing that?
Last time I checked, the Police weren't allowed to make laws. Only a Legislative body can do that; and they haven't.
No. You are completely wrong. You should be banned from here for making such a stupid and blatantly false posting.
But some states have different policies than others and I assume that NJT (New Jersey) has what's called a Zero Tolerance Policy on photography in their system which basically means no photography is allowed under any circumstances. And that Zero Tolerance Policy is the reason WHY you got stopped.
When you assume you make an a$$ out of you and you.
Sorry, the official MTA website says it is legal as long as you don't use tripod or flash or other extra equipment. It's stated in print. As for buses, I have never taken a photo of a bus because I really don't have any interest in them, however.... I can understand if somehow they decided you couldn't take subway photos on subway property (totally hypothetical, as again, the MTA says it's legal on their website). However, I can not see the same for buses. If you are on a PUBLIC street, I can see nothing the MTA can do to stop you from taking a photo of a bus (not that I have any desire to do so). So hypothetically, even if what you said was true that it was illegal to take photos of subway or buses, the bus one defintiely can't hold up.
But some states have different policies than others and I assume that NJT (New Jersey) has what's called a Zero Tolerance Policy on photography in their system which basically means no photography is allowed under any circumstances.
Just to add, for PATH, etc...I have taken rail photogrphy photos since around 1989. So while it is illegal to photograph on PATH, it has NOTHING at all to do with 9/11. It was already illegal on PATH long before 9/11/01, it was already illegal there when I first took up rail photography.
That is very true - I DID NOT spend hundreds of dollars to buy camera equipment so I can take pictures of the family pet - the ONLY reason I spent the money was to take pictures of historical structures, trains, etc.
Why buy a camera if I can't use it?
Elias
But despite my dislike of the current administration, I feel it necessary to post a part of a recent speech made by Bush:
Good evening, my fellow Americans. It is I, George W. Bush. I'm the President. And I am here tonight to discuss the state of the economy. Now one thing most people do not realize, is that since I have been in office, there has been tremendous growth in one major part of the economy. Of course, I'm talking about the national debt. It has grown tremendously since I have been in office. Now, people don't realize that this is a money saving tactic on my part. You see, if we don't have any wealth as a nation, we can see nothing but tremendous savings. We will no longer need a Department of the Treasury..."
It sounds like something I wrote in 2nd grade for one of those "What Did I Do Last Summer?" essays.
I also have some interest and puzzlement in what China can/would do. One one hand their a nationalistic country that is the only nation to become a world power without being in a major war to get there(from some china studies book I glanced through once). But on the other hand, isn't their whole economy based on making us all the cheap crap we are required to buy to keep the economy moving? As some guy in a business mag said, "it's all made in china now".
I can't figure it out, but hopefully we're get a good spacerace going. If I'm going to have an enemy that makes us strive for innovation and other things, it sure aint' going to be the arab shieks.
mike
mike
So I will repeat my statement - KEEP IT TO TRAINS - you want to talk about international affairs - take it somewhere else.
Mike
the last group that had rebuilds, back in the late 80's early 90's totaled 19. It was intended for them to run on the harbourfront line. They did for a while, but the residents complained of the noise from the wheels. They last were used in revenue service on Dec. 6 (not sure of the day) 1995. Of the final group - the TTC holds the two that were restored to original condition #4500 and #4549. Of the remaining 17, the rest went to a variety of Rail Preservation societies. Some are still operational and in use, some are being rehabbed. I will be sending you an email with the particulars...
Mike
-Robert King
-Robert King
4500 class Rebuilding Program
New Number
Former Number
Year Outshopped
4600
4505
1986
4601
4512
1987
4602
4537
1989
4603
4548
1989
4604*
4500
1989
4605*
4549
1989
4606
4528
1989
4607
4536
1990
4608
4544
1990
4609
4526
1990
4610
4541
1990
4611
4540
1990
4612
4543
1990
4613
4503
1991
4614
4509
1991
4615
4518
1991
4616
4515
1991
4617
4539
1992
4618
4501
1992
*officially so numbered by TTC but retaining
original numbers for historical accuracy
there is a great website on Toronto Transit.
here is the link
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/transit.cfm?tt=streetcar&id=4509
that is just on the rebuilt PCC's
this is for the main page - really well done.
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/
Enjoy
Mike
This proves that all this talk about "freedom" by the current administration, and also by the current Congressional session, is nothing other than propaganda - more a tool of political one-ups-man-ship than an overarching fundamental principle. If you have to prostrate yourself before The Powers That Be just so that you can take a few pictures while standing in a publicly accessible area, what's next - getting a permit to go to the bathroom? If this really were a free country where protecting freedoms were viewed as tantamount by the current leadership (and it is one of the closest things there is to one on this planet), you'd be *free* to take pictures (unless it were something that severely compromised national security - photocopying a classified document, or photographing a limited-access area at a nuclear power plant, for example - I don't see how taking pictures of trains falls anywhere near that category) or was disruptive to others (blocking an exit that others are trying to use, for example). That's what it means to be *free* - you can do what you want unless there is a specific and superseding demand to the contrary.
And if we complain about the government, it could only be because we actually do love this country and want to see only the best for it. If we didn't care we could have simply left a long time ago. And loving your country doesn't mean unquestioningly accepting every edict and mandate - Orwell wrote a nice little book about what happens in such a society, and Jefferson and many of the other founding fathers were explicit in stating that letting your voice be heard, actively questioning the actions of your government and proposing alternatives are all vital to the operation of a true constitutional democracy.
On a more practical note, what do you think there is to stop some al Qaeda member from getting one of these permits? Or for that matter, why not just conduct the photography surreptitiously? Realistically, his chances of getting caught if he makes himself inconspicuous are slim to none.
So this whole permit charade (like the vast majority of the other "security" measures enacted since 9/11) provide little, if any - make that NO - security benefit while infringing, in some cases markedly so (i.e. indefinite detainment), on the fundamental rights of law-abiding citizens and visitors to this country. The only reason they're done is because they're visible and public measures, and to a citizenry of sheeple who don't bother to think too deeply about these issues (what would Jefferson say about that?), it makes them feel "safer." Ooh, they're confiscating tweezers at the airport so Osama can't use one to hijack a plane. Ooh, they're not letting people take pictures of trains so they can't use the pictures to blow them up. Ooh, they make everybody go through a metal detector before being allowed into the Empire State Building and the Statue of Liberty, so those landmarks must be safe.
Where have the real Patriots gone? It's good to see there are quite a few here, but as far as the general public goes, the picture isn't all that good...
"Welcome to the SubTalk bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only. Off-topic and harassing posts will be removed at the discretion of the management"
Flaming the president, for his policies is definately off-topic here unless he was talking about Amtrak funding or the like. And he wasn't. What I do with my vote come November is my business, not anyone elses. My opinions are mine, and I made the choice to keep them to myself. Unlike others who didn't make that choice, I know that politics is very contenious (sp?) - and it will cause more arguments here or anywhere else with the exception of relgion. I may or may not agree with Mr. Blair, however, I do respect his right to say what he wants, with that said, it wasn't appropriate for him to be talking about things other than trains or such. I know that sometimes things get off topic, and that is fine, but this is very inappropriate for this board.
Mike
mike
Bums? As in people who are so mentally disabled that they can't hold a job and therefore cannot afford proper housing? Is that what you refer to as a bum?
Christ Almighty, here you go again. Haven't you learned that you're just making yourself seem like a senile old schmuck?
There are many reasons why skells are that way. Some indeed are mentally ill. Others are addicted to drugs and/or alcohol. Still others are just horribly down on their luck. Finally, many of them probably have a combination of issues.
Did you ever stop to think that Qtrain may be intolerant of skells with mental disorders because he has been able to lead a semi-normal life, not homeless or anything, despite being (so he says) mentally unable to work?
Peter did it ever occur to you that you present some very weak arguments? You criticize me for not being tollerant of johnny q-ball because he's mentally ill but you excuse little q-ball's intollerance of other mentally ill people because he's not homeless. Don't you see the inconsistancy there. If anything, johnny Q should be more tollerant of 'bums' because except for the circumstance of a taxpayer funded apartment and some food & clothing - there he'd be.
In all honesty, I don't take too much of this shit too seriously but it would be more interesting if you presented some descent arguments once in a while. If you want to attack me, at least carry some ammo.
Oh, pardon me. The ossifer ought to have looked at the homeless man too. But perhaps the officer already knew who he was, and what his needs were. Sometimes there isn't anything you can do for such people, unless you want to re-open Pilgrim State Hospital or something. Put them all inside where they will be warm and clean, or something. But then, would you hold them there against thier will?
There are many issues in society, and if that "bum" would have accepted aid that Qtrain has accepted, then he too would not be wasting away on the station platform. As a conservative and a Republican, I have no problem with making sure that the truly needy and indigent are cared for by the society. True there are some lazy oafs who work the system, but I really object to most of the welfare system because it does nothing to HELP people. Here, take this money and don't bother me! Most people do not need money, they need a chance! And *that* is exactly what the "Gimmiecrats" are NOT offering to people. (Not that the Rekeeplicans are doing it any better at all!)
The whole city is your living room, and its people are your family.
If we might treat each other this way, we would be a great nation once again.
Elias
In our current international circumstance, our government has determined that it would be wide to maintain an elevated level of security. I agree with that. What I don't agree with is that some here have taken their railfanning hobby and made it more important than the legitimate national security concerns of the majority of the populace. But, since national security concerns have limited the desires of some here to pursue their hobby interests, national security should be a fair subject for discussion (unless some refer to those they don't agree with as Nazis or Diaper Wearers).
They already are safe.
Obviously not but at 75 MPH Johnny Q-tip standing on the ROW with a camera may look like a mini-terrorist to a LIRR engineer. He has every right to call it in and the police have the obligation to investigate it.
Wrong.
Probably, although he hasn't had much luck in snagging one.
The government lies. There is zero danger of further terrorist attacks in the United States, for the simple reason that if there were any active terrorist cells here they would have struck already. I guarantee you, the government knows this. Unfortunately, everybody's going mucking fental because American people aren't willing to accept defeat. We can't adjust to the fact that 19 dimwitted towel heads were able to pull off the most crushing military defeat in American history. In response, we're striking out blindly, and railfans unfortunately are among the innocent victims. If we as Americans were more gracious about accepting the occasional battlefield defeat none of this would happen.
Look locally (Selkirk has pointed this out) and you will see that the cities (including New York) and the states have been seriously shortchanged for the $$$$ that HS requires.
In Baltimore, a east cost port city, only 2 of every 10 containers get fully checked out (so that what's on the manifest is really what's inside) and it's the city and the state that foots the bill.
Cops detailed to HS get pulled off more important (Crime) police work, because the adminstration failed to continue a worthwile project.
I'd much rather talk about streetcars, subways and trains, but the political stuff is as much a part of life as any other.
So now you are going to guarantee the safety of every American man, woman and child? You are obviously eating too many mushrooms. I'll skip over your racist characterization of Arab people as "dimwitted towel heads". It just shows what a hypoctite you are. Now, Peter, you may consider this a personal attack if you wish but you are a complete fucking idiot. 3,000 innocent Americans died in that attack. It cost this country and the city of NY billions of dollars and changed our collective lifestyles for the forseeable future. If you think we should accept it with grace - If you think we should accept it as an occasional battlefield defeat then you are beneath contempt. Fortunately, I don't believe that the majority of Subtalkers (OR AMERICANS) find your point of view anything more than mindless drivel (other than johnny Q-Tips).
I'm not making fun of Arabs. I'm making fun of people who are afraid of Arabs.
3,000 innocent Americans died in that attack. It cost this country and the city of NY billions of dollars and changed our collective lifestyles for the forseeable future. If you think we should accept it with grace - If you think we should accept it as an occasional battlefield defeat then you are beneath contempt.
Accept it with grace? No, the proper way of dealing with a battlefield defeat like 9/11 is to FIGHT BACK. Not by retreating into paranoia.
We do not have to retreat into paranoia. Hpoefully America can shake the Republican lamprey that is sucking out all that is great about America, But the war will go on. taliban and al qaida still exist and they need to be totally eradicated from the face of the earth and the Iraqi situation needs to be stabilized enough by a force under UN command who can someday give Iraq back to it's people without fear that Iraq would become an islamist rat's nest.
Not only are you a load in societies pants, you are also a liar. This is what you actually said;
"If we as Americans were more gracious about accepting the occasional battlefield defeat none of this would happen."
THOSE WERE YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE. SPIN IT ANYWAY YOU WANT. YOU SAID IT"
I think the amount of agreement with your views depends on what you're referring to. Lots of people on this board have endorsed the idea of polite questioning by the police when they receive a complaint.
Not so many endorse the idea of the police, after a thorough investigation and agreeing that the person in question is an innocent railfan, still demanding that the person delete the pictures.
Also not so many endorse rail employees screaming at railfans (not politely at all) that pictures are not permitted when in fact they are.
If you got the officer's name you can go to Hudson county small claims court and file suit for the value of the photos. Even if you loose it will be a pain in the ass for them.
Police cannot sieze your property for an unspecified period of time. You have a constutional right to a speedy hearing.
And no matter how you try to answer, it would just escalate the situation further. In fact, virtually any answer you give to a cop other than "Yes sir" will usually escalate the situation. Forget about trying to assert your Constitutional rights - that'll get you a ticket to Rikers faster than anything else...
Besides, only anti-government lunatics like Tim McVeigh and the Unabomber, and those tree hugger wackos at the ACLU really care about their Constitutional rights. We have to uphold Fatherland Security after all, and if some of your rights have to be abridged that's too bad... that's not just the opinion of the Storm Trooper harassing you, but alas also of the general US population at large. "Oh, he must be doing something wrong if he won't consent to a body cavity search without probable cause to any jackass who requests it. Oh, why would he demand a lawyer or refuse to answer a question if he wasn't doing anything wrong? Well, if the officer decided to question him, he must have been doing something wrong." etc.
I've heard there's a new medicine that helps stop the progress of Alzheimer's. Maybe you can add it to your daily routine, you know, along with Levitra.
Peter, i'd like to ask you a question that has nothing to do with trains. Why are you interested in another man's erect penis? Do you do this often?
Are you serious?
Anyway, this HBLR thing has caused me to take it up a notch. "Fatherland Security" is officially no longer my problem. I don't care if I see Osama Bin Ladden on the 7 train with an AK-47. If the cops are going to treat me like a terrorist then screw them, I'm not going to make their job easier. I am just going to get off the train and go on my merry way. Not my problem any more. If the government wants its citizens to care they should treat them with a little more god damn respect.
Yes, those are actual comments I've heard from people I've talked to about this. Even those who do care about civil liberties generally take the view that "there are more important things to worry about," or "well, sometimes we have to sacrifice a little essential liberty in exchange for short-term security." I guess we as railfans are more acutely aware of our rights to do things that to some may seem suspicious, nerdy and/or esoteric (taking pictures of trains, studying track maps, playing contingency games about taking lines out of service, not to mention a healthy amount of gummint-bashing) than the general public. It's a sad commentary on our society.
Just be careful when you get off the train to not be too "suspicious," or you might convince your surveiller that you're attempting to evade law enforcement (which in fact you are, I guess), which would invite an even bigger response. Be prepared to spend the better part of that day in an interrogation room - you'll be released without charge and with all your possessions if you give the right answers, but you can forget about whatever you were doing that day...
Hey, you'll get 3 square Halal meals a day, and a complimentary Koran, prayer mat and skull cap, and lots of human companionship in the form of your interrogator, all of this on sunny beachfront property in the Caribbean, so it's not all bad...
An attorney should be consulted.
A waste of time ... the police are above the law these days, after all, they're "heroes."
Our system of jurisprudence however, puts the burden on you to prove your case, so it is only a waste of time if you don't want to do the work. If you do, there's a lot that can be accomplished.
I oppose "reforms" that prevent you from suing for a legitimate loss in the first place. I support reforms that prevent you from venue-shopping, holding everybody hostage with joint and severable regardless of the facts and collecting unlimited pain and suffering awards.
Maybe right-wingers favor tort reform because they are 'RIGHT'.
Arti
I would not have beat around the bush with the officers.
I would have politely told them that their option is to arrest and book me now, or allow me to continue to make photographs.
Elias
I accidentally erased some digital pix from the memory card in my dad's camera.
All I had to do was download some free software, install it on my computer, run it, and back came the pix just the same as undeleting any file on the HD.
VERY IMPORTANT: Do not record anything to the memory card before you undelete the pix.
You can find it here.
To download it directly, click here.
For a further discussion of this kind of software and other alternatives, see item #2 in this issue of LangaList.
Well, there IS harm in doing just that. The police and the government have infinitely more power to terrorize the citizenry than a couple thousand nutjobs in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan ever will.
I think somebody should start printing the Constitution on toilet paper, and give it out to government agents and elected officials. Might as well literally do what they're doing figuratively.
Don't worry Stefan, you have one anti-Bush vote right here :)
Yeah after that you should have just gotten out of there, I mean off the system.
That was my mistake yesterday. An LIRR engineer saw me taking a picture of his train and went for the radio. I should have left then. Instead I kept snapping away. And an MTA Police officer showed up to question me. Fortunately in my case he was nice. I dont know what I would've done if he asked me to delete photos. If I refused I'd probably have been arrested. If I did delete them, then I'd want his name and badge and to speak with his supervisor.
Then my next trip would be to a lawyer's office and the news.
I'm really shocked the news isnt covering these violations of civil liberties. Well maybe I shouldnt be so shocked.
The news is mostly owned by right wingers. I'm so upset I really want to get involved in a movement to get the situation across to the public. I've tried some internet groups, especially commuter groups like Straphangers and the LIRR Commuters Campaign. They could care less. Maybe the ACLU would be interested?
These civil rights violations are way more serious than these so-called "police brutality" cases. But you know they saying, "if it bleeds it leads". :-(
Actually most news media is far to the right.
furthermore, I suspect that you will find more respect for your rights on the right then on the left. The problem is not with the ideologies or with the leadership as it is with the bureaucrats who try to carry them out.
Elias
Clear Channel (out here at least) in not overly bent to the right. They have several left leaning shmoes on too. And the local station did tell CC where to get off at: they break the Rush Limbaugh show up into two pieces, and put their own very popular farm program on at noon. Told CC: We make more money this way, so PHFTFTFTFftftftftttttt.......
What clear channel *does* do is put on winning programs that rake in the money. Let's face it: Rush draws more of a crowd than Charles Schultz. And Schultz is a local Fargo boy~ Tring to become the Liberal Rush. He's good, but not *that* good, he ain't going to replace Limbaugh on any station any time in this decade.
And the PSA announcements: they are all from deep left field, a real hoot to have them run around the Rush Program. And CC doesnt *have* to play *any* of those things.
Methinks you are mixing polyticks with making money.
Elias
Certain parts (FOX, Murdock owned TV stations & radio stations to swing to the right). Most talk radio (AM spectrum) is Far Right.
You need to read/listen to both sides of the political spectrum to get a real "fair & balanced" opinion.
Yes, but not overly so.
You want FAR RIGHT... Just tune in to Michael Savage...
Elias
ACTUALLY: Br. Elias is DYSLEXIC and doesn't understand his right from his left.
I HAD INTENDED TO SAY that MOST NEWS MEDIA in this country already is LEFT LEANING!
: ) Elias
I guess you don't read Newday or the NY Times or watch CBS, ABC or NBC.
I missspoke myself!
I Meant LEFT.
MOST MEDIA is FAR LIBERAL LEFT!
Elias
In case you don't realize it, mainstream media works in a pack mentality and, up until the last few months, the mentality has been very conserative. No high profile Washington reporter wants to jeoparidze their contacts by rocking the boat. By getting branded as a 'liberal journalist', you lose your contacts and career prospects especially given the higly vindictive group in power now.
Come on already and open your eyes - the so-called 'very liberal NY Times' just publicly apologized and reported on their own indiscretions admitting that white house mis-information was essentially printed word for word on the front page without any verification in the lead up to the Iraq war. These stories helped to fuel the fire for the war, justifying it and helping to build support for it. they essentially admitted to being stoolies for Bush in the run up to the war. 'Liberal media' my ass.
As far as the HBLR goes, just madness, but not all that new - I got hassled by LIRR cops for taking pictures of a LIRR freight train (remember those?) from a street in Queens about 20 years ago...
ROTFL!!
You are right in your second point. The right would be far more offended by these absuses of governmental authority. The left loves this kind of fascist behavior if it is used to further their political agenda.
How would they know if you didn't tell them?
It really is all about you, Qtrain, isn't it?
Or if he happens to be the "wrong" color.
I guess we are below what they once were, When can i move to the USSR?
:0)
You're wrong on both accounts. Outside FOX News, the media is biased towards the left. Secondly, those "right wingers" you so sarcastically dismiss would probably be very angry at this gross abuse of governmental power.
But hey ... as Jack Nocholson said in that famous movie, when it comes to republicans, "You can't HANDLE the truth." :)
This has been repeatedly discussed here - your statement is FALSE - NYCRR section 1050.9c specifically permits non-commercial photography. Check the MTA website - it is posted there even today!! It was the law BEFORE and AFTER 9/11.
Having said that - Back in the 1970's I believe photography required a permit, however the law was changed in response to a lawsuit.
Unless you're a lawyer in the state of NJ, I don't think we have anyone who can give you an answer and be correct. I bet it would have been easier to challenge were you actually *charged* with something. I am of the mind that if this happens to another person, don't submit to a search or seizure of your property. You might get charged. But until these ridiculous things get in front of a court they're not going to go away. IANAL.
It might actually be more efficient to hit the police up for damages after the fact. The big reason is that you don't have anything more to loose except the cost of filing suit. Small claims court is designed to be easy and a case for actual damages is pretty easy to make. You need to go into court and make the following three points.
1) Photography where you were located was legal
2) The police unlawfully threatened you and as a result forced you yo delete your photos
3) Those photos represented a $ amount of time and effort on your part that is now wasted.
If you sue for like $100 or so they might actually settle.
As was pointed out elsewhere in this thread, nothing is actually deleted until it is overwritten.
All he had to do was take the card out of the camera after he "deleted" the photos and keep the card safe until he got home and undeleted them.
Before you do so, make sure you actually have the legal right to photo where you are.
I have had my cell phone almost confiscated one time for trying to take a picture with it. So they do not know how to treat people on that line.
Do you think if railfanners boycott HBLR, the non-rush hour ridership will drop to almost nothing?
The taxpayers are their main revenue source.
We had cameras and a scanner to monitor the traffic. We were seen by numerous passing police cars. We saw a dozen AMTRAK and NS trains. Hundreds of people rode and walked past us. Yet for some strange reason, not one were we approach, let alone questioned by police or anyone else.
This is not the first time we've been in this particular location and it's not the only area where we railfan. No matter what we do, or where we go, the police never harass us. What are we doing wrong?
Well, I'm glad you had a good time and remained unmolested.
Inconsistent policy enforcement is always a risk in a large organization. When you have thousands of employees, hundreds of supervisors, etc. it's certainly possible somebody's not going to use comon sense when interpreting a rule (or will even get the rule wrong). Hence the cop or other employee giving somebody a hard time about photos.
O course, if one of the folks complaining did something that attracted the cop's attention (that they didn't disclose on Subtalk)...
Furthermore, most railroads have neither the time nor inclination to harrass anyone other than tresspassers and even then enforcment was spotty.
The slogan was loved by few and hated by many, and as a result was removed from the plates after about two years.
Due to PA's strange method of replacing license plates some of the plates with the "friend" slogan remained in use until the year 2000.
In reference to reunions, with two of them on the same day, 250 miles apart, I have to miss the one in Melville. It would have been nice to have seen some of those people after 50 years.
Da Hui
What makes you think things would be different if Bush wasn't president? And why are you complaining after you meekly agreed to erase your photos without offering any kind of resistance? I'm getting sick and tired of all this whining. DO SOMETHING!
It's no small thing for an alien to have an arrest record.
And you weren't asked about your immigration status?
Do yourself a favor next time this happens: ignor the bozos who suggest you have a confrontation with the cops. Instead, carry a spare memory card so that you can switch cards after you "delete" the photos. Undeleting the contents of the first card is child's play if you don't continue to use the card after you "delete" something.
Chris R27-R30:
What makes you think things would be different if Bush wasn't president?
The fact that I believe his, and/or his aides', personal stance contributes to the
measures whose effect I just felt upon myself, whose only purpose, to my deep
conviction, is to brainwash the people into feeling cared about, and which will have
zero to negative effect as far as preventing terrorism goes.
I certainly may be wrong with my beliefs.
And why are you complaining after you meekly agreed to erase your photos without
offering any kind of resistance? I'm getting sick and tired of all this whining.
If there's anything I didn't do here, that's whining.
I felt the need to share the story with others, so that (i) they know about it
and be more careful themselves, (ii) whatever minuscule contribution to the public
opinion against such police behavior I could make, I wanted to make it.
DO SOMETHING!
Yes, I am fully aware that by behaving the way I did I effectively encouraged them to do
this again in the future, and I do feel sorry about it. Unfortunately, as I mentioned, I
am a busy person, and besides I wouldn't enjoy the prospect of the FBI talking to my employer
(to begin with). I chose what I considered to be the lesser evil, and now that I have
been reminded about FAT, I will do it again in 10 cases out of 10. I know this is
egoistic. Too bad.
KMA:
Do you speak with a foreign accent?
A slight one but yes.
And you weren't asked about your immigration status?
Of course I was (including when my green card expires, and what I would have to do if I
wanted to become a citizen - basic fool tests, the way I heard it).
And I always carry a spare CF card :-)
JPC:
So this whole permit charade (like the vast majority of the other "security" measures
enacted since 9/11) provide little, if any - make that NO - security benefit while
infringing, in some cases markedly so (i.e. indefinite detainment), on the fundamental
rights of law-abiding citizens and visitors to this country. The only reason they're
done is because they're visible and public measures, and to a citizenry of sheeple who
don't bother to think too deeply about these issues (what would Jefferson say about
that?), it makes them feel "safer."
Could I have put it better myself?..
Perhaps just augment 'feel "safer"' with the intrinsic 'and vote for them'.
If I, for one, didn't like this country, I wouldn't be here. And so I'd love to see this
country act in a reasonable manner.
Granted, people may and will have differing opinions on what's "reasonable" and what's
not. In my opinion, launching an investigation on a railfan in a situation like mine
doesn't qualify as reasonable.
John J. Blair:
Yeah, There has to be a balance. Smart police interviey people and get to know the
"regulars" This rapport pays off by giving the officer many sets of eyes and ears. I
have NO QUARREL with an officer who asks questions.
Same here.
If all there was to this story was questions asked, images reviewed, case closed, - none
of my negative sentiments would have been expressed.
My friend and I have cooperated anyway (and we did get a "Thank you for your
cooperation" at the end of the conversation). But by coercing us to delete the pictures,
I claim that the powers-that-be have overplayed it big time. Which I didn't like at all.
Bad guys go to jail, wiseasses go thru hell and honest railfans get my cell
number.
Guess what - the officed DID give us his number at the end. Perhaps I should have
mentioned this.
Busdude:
And even in Communist Soviet Union it was perfectally legal to take a picture of the
trams.
Ray De Groote, whom a few here probably know, visited my native town of Kiev in 1959.
(The following is what he himself told me.) He took a picture of a tram, and was
approached by a police (i.e., militia) officer. As it turned out, the problem was that
the railway station building got into the picture. "I'm sorry, - he said, - I didn't
know. But is taking pictures of trams per se OK?" - "Yes, it is."
R62A:
Sorry to say it fellas but photography of buses and subways has been ILLEGAL since 9-11.
NYPD, who was a poster here is in the NYPD Police Academy and has brought up the
question of photography in the Transit System. According to his instructors, fellow
Police Officers, they stated that since 9-11, photography in the NYC Subway, Bus and
Rail Systems has been ILLEGAL and a summons can be issued to any violators. The proof
that this law has been actually updated is unknown and has to be looked up at the 1st
possible free chance.
??!
Now that's complete news to me.
I don't know about NJT (and will still try to find out), but I have read the actual NYCT
regulations - well after Sep 11 - and it is specifically stated here that photography in
the subway IS allowed, as long as you don't use flashes, tripods, blah blah.
All the more, how can photography of buses be prohibited, if virtually any bus anywhere
can be photographed while standing on public property??
And I'm sure that back in the Middle East, a terrorist would be laughed at until they had to commit suicide if they were to take credit for blowing up Linden, NJ. In fact I doubt anyone would be able to even locate that burgh on a map. :-\
Despite the thin layer of padding, the seats were rather hard and uncomfortable. Some of the female passengers could have been classified as soft targets, though ;).
As Auric Goldfinger once put it to James Bond, "Once is Happenstance. Twice is Coincidence. The third time it's Enemy action."
Note that your impression
The officer acted like he DID NOT want to be there.
exactly coincides with mine. Like I mentioned, in our case NJT cops were standing there speechless and all but demonstrating their lack of interest. The ones who ran the show were Bayonne cops; perhaps we were just "lucky" to come across one who's sighting a promotion...
I should also have stressed that we WERE standing on NJT property (but only publicly accessible parts thereof) while taking some of our pictures. However, this was never presented as an argument until the very end of the conversation, when The Plain-Clothes Guy did mention it (according to my friend - somehow I didn't really pay attention). However, the finale was actually the same (one more point left out of my original post): "If you guys want to do it again, obtain permission from NJT." - "Permission for what? For taking pictures from public property?.." - "Just get their permission, and you'll be fine."
Anyhow, the picture looks clear now. Obviously, it's perfectly legal to shoot from public property. It's doubtful whether it's legal to do so from NJT's property - New York and Boston representing the two known opposite practices. On top of that, however, we have the drivers/fare inspectors/supervisors who are under instructions to report photographers. Esp. "in our times", you can hardly prove your case against an instruction to call police if any suspicious activity is observed, and the boundaries of "suspicious activity" can stretch ad infinitum - while most of such activity of course remains legal. The rest depends, among other things, on the mood of the cops who happen to be on duty at that time; but one can suspect that if you laugh into their faces and say, "Look, I'm not doing anything illegal - say what you want, but I'm going on with my pictures; watch me if you have no other business", - a hitherto friendly conversation may turn into something more challenging. The choice (hopefully) is still yours.
(Actually, in our case - where we were actually cooperating - one of the cops did mention that they have the right to hold us for up to six hours without arresting or charging us, just for conducting an investigation. In fact, he wasn't quite confident; "I think it's six; don't quite remember, but something like that" were his words. Could we have caught on to this soft spot of his and started acting tough? Perhaps. Problem is, I suspect he'd be quick to find someone who WAS confident; what would the possible consequences be?)
That said, I maintain my viewpoint that (i) the practice of reporting photographers is idiotic, (not only, but in particular) because it is a wasted effort - the real bad guys being smarter than the authors of the idea would like to see them; (ii) in broader terms, a huge part of the current "anti-terrorist" policy is but a PR move. Unfortunately, the very reason the art of PR exists is that in general, it sells well. People tend to look at, and evaluate, the packaging but not the contents...
Yup... and our liberties are disappearing one by one in the name of "these times," I think I'll stay home on election day.
Stefan's post was the main reason I headed out to HBLR. Next stop, Burlington City!
And, if a t.o was to blare a horn at you, then can it be considered just to hurl a rock at his window?
"Someone called in...we have to follow it up." Taking our names & addresses didn't seem warranted, but whatever; if HBLR blows up, I'll get a knock on my door.
And, if a t.o was to blare a horn at you, then can it be considered just to hurl a rock at his window?
I think that's considered felony assault.
NOPE.
Assault is the *threat* of physical violence.
Battery is the *application* of physical violence.
Usually a person is charged with assault and battery because they both threatened the use of violence, and then also actually physically applied violence.
"Assault with a Deadly Weapon" means the Threat of violence with that weapon, not that one was actually shot, cut, sliced, or otherwise mayhemed.
Elias
Sorry to say it fellas but photography of buses and subways has been ILLEGAL since 9-11.
NYPD, who was a poster here is in the NYPD Police Academy and has brought up the
question of photography in the Transit System. According to his instructors, fellow
Police Officers, they stated that since 9-11, photography in the NYC Subway, Bus and
Rail Systems has been ILLEGAL and a summons can be issued to any violators. The proof
that this law has been actually updated is unknown and has to be looked up at the 1st
possible free chance.
??!
Now that's complete news to me.
I don't know about NJT (and will still try to find out), but I have read the actual NYCT
regulations - well after Sep 11 - and it is specifically stated here that photography in
the subway IS allowed, as long as you don't use flashes, tripods, blah blah.
All the more, how can photography of buses be prohibited, if virtually any bus anywhere
can be photographed while standing on public property??
Don't listen to R62A. He knows not what he is talking about. It is still very legal to take pics in the NYC Subway system.
First of all, being a retired police officer myself, in this day and age any police officers who would knowingly violate a person's civil rights -- even under the guise of heightened security -- have left themselves open to a personal lawsuit. Your rights were violated in the following ways:
1. Being detained for over an hour without breaking any law
2. Having your personal property destroyed (your photographic images) by coercion
3. The threat of taking your personal property (camera) without a warrant
4. The mention of taking you someplace for further interrogation without any probable cause
You say you are not a citizen of the U.S., but you are still under the protection of the U.S. Constitution. The least you can do is file a complaint with the Bayonne Police Dept. and N.J. Transit. Also, I don't know your country of origin, but I would notify the Embassy and file a formal complaint with them. Most importantly, I would contact the newspapers -- your best bet would be the Newark Star Ledger. I'm sure they would be very interested in your experience.
The worst thing you can do is nothing.
The trooper then brought me to the MTA Police at
Penn Station, saying that "We have to make sure
that you are not a threat, since you have all
this information." I WAS NOT HANDCUFFED, BUT I
WAS SEARCHED. THE COPS TREATED ME NICELY AND DID
NOT EVEN LAY A HAND ON ME IN THE OFFICE. I WAS
RELEASED 3 HOURS LATER AFTER THEY SPOKE TO MY
FATHER. You can reach Sgt. Howell at
(212)878-1000 and he'll tell you which trooper
pulled me over on the LIRR train.
The police ended up calling my parents. They even
sent troopers to my house and took down my whole
family's information and my parents think that I
am a criminal and terrorist. My parents are so
upset and said "IF SOMETHING HAPPENS ON AT PENN
STATION, THEY CAN COME AND LOOK FOR YOU AT OUR
HOUSE!!!!!!"
I was cleared, but I feel like my civil rights
and my constitutional amendments were VIOLATED.
My parents told me NOT to sue to or even speak to
a lawyer, otherwise they’ll end up charging me a
fortune. I CANNOT afford a lawyer and DO NOT want
to end up paying back everything if I loose a
lawsuit in civil court. I am currently on
Medicaid because of my low income.
If someone needs to call me, please tell them NOT
to call my work # except from 2pm to 3pm, since
that is my lunch hour and my boss DOES NOT want
me to receive any personal calls when I am
working. Please RSVP as soon as possible by
e-mail or writing.
Thank you very much for your time and cooperation
and have a wonderful day.
James S. Li
qcdmc2000@yahoo.com
(718)441-2758
""Your liberty just doesn't happen to extend to taking pictures here." (OK, OK, the actual phrase used was "you guys can't take pictures here.")"
"calling Al Qaeda Directory Assistance (or so I believe) to see if we happened to be listed"
"you shall reply: "I am taking pictures of soft targets." Got that? Good."
Since you are not a citizen, I'll explain something about the US that it has in common with the rest of the world: non-citizens do not have the same rights as non-citizens. Nor do you have the same civil liberties as a citizen.
It sounds like you, as a non-citizen, purposely went out of your way to bait and test the secuirity officials. This is a standard tactic of Al Qaeda and other terrorist/criminal/covert groups.
What amazes me is that you are encouraging people to probe and weaken security for you. Remember it was the repeated use of the "I'd love to see the inside of a cockpit" followed by the "I think I dropped something up there" that let the 9/11 terrorists plan and develope thier plan.
My opinion of your current activies is that you are either a jack-ass kid being a jack-ass kid (We understand we were all jack-asses as kids), or you are an outsider with something against America and it's governemnt. If it's the former, then please grow up and realize that there is some major stuff that has and continues to go down that is over your head. If it's that latter, then either become a citizen so you can "vote the bastards out of office", obey the current laws or leave the country.
If you continue to act-out, I wouldn't play the rebel thing too much, your rights as a non-citizen are not the same as a citizen. You could find yourself in a small room with men wearing bad suits for a couple of days, followed by a one way plain ticket. America is a great place with many freedeoms, but as in the rest of the world: Freedoms are not absolute.
So people who aren't U.S. citizens have no rights when confronted by the police? That's a frightening thought.
Lawful permanent non-citizen residents of the United States have all the rights of due process of the law that citizens have.
And if Stefan is from Germany, they have due process of law there too nowadays.
But not free speach.
But not free speach.
The world's freest countries, according to Freedomhouse.org:
Andorra, Australia, Austria, Bahamas, Barbados, Belgium, Canada, Cape Verde, Chile, Cyprus, Denmark, Dominica, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Kiribati, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Malta, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Palau, Portugal, San Marino, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Tuvalu, United Kingdom, United States, and Uruguay.
As you see, Germany is considered as free as the United States.
(By the way, the least free countries are Burma, Cuba, North Korea, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, and Turkmenistan).
Given their history, it's an understandable restriction.
Very true.
An interesting aspect of the Freedomhouse.org survery is that there are a number of countries which get the highest possible rating (1 on a scape of 1 - 7)for political rights, but a slightly lower 2 rating for civil liberties: Belize, Bulgaria, Costa Rica, Czech Republic, Estonia, Greece, Grenada, Hungary, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania
So non-citizens have no rights? If the government just decides one day to deport every single lawful non-citizen, regardless of their reason for being there (student visa, work visa, visiting family), you'd have no problem with that?
If the government just decided to round up every single lawful non-citizen and send them to Parts Unknown without criminal charge for an indeterminate period of time, you'd have no problem with that? Oh wait, they already are doing that to some people...
>>And from what you're saying I doubt you'd get the same nice, respectful treatment in your country.<<
So can our motto be, "Hey, we're not nearly as bad as Saddam Hussein." Or Kim Jong-Il, or Robert Mugabe, or Moammar Qad'hafi, or Pinochet, or Ceaucescu, Milosevic, or Idi Amin, the House of Saud, or whatever other despotic regime of choice.
Weekday boardings are averaging an estimated 2,320, exceeding consultants' projections that it would take until 2010 to exceed 2,000 weekday boardings.
From Link's debut Aug. 23, 2003, to Dec. 31, Link carried an estimated 267,000 riders between the Tacoma Dome Station and the city's Theater District.
So far this year, Sound Transit estimates that more than 235,000 riders have used the system.
Actual ridership is part head count and part guesswork because the streetcar is free. Streetcar operators count the number of people waiting at each stop and write them down most days. There are two entrances on the passenger trains, and drivers don't count the actual number of people who get on the train.
Voters in Pierce, King and Snohomish counties approved the $4 billion initiative to create Sound Transit in 1996. The agency is charged with providing commuter rail, light rail and express buses. The bulk of its funding comes from local taxes, including a 0.4 percent sales tax and a 0.3 percent vehicle license tax.
Aaron Corvin, The News Tribune
Movie:
Train departing (Windows Media, 5.6MB)
Photos:
Ya know if you'd had gotten the Slant running on the D I would call you the greatest SubTalker ever. But you didn't. So you suck. ;-)
What's with the terminals? It says BPB-CI but it is going to/from neither of those.
W Bwy
I staked out the Yankee Stadium station at the end of the game today and was able to ride a Yankee Special. An empty R-68 rolled in and I knew it was it.
We skipped 155th-8th avenue, but ran local on CPW and 6th avenue.
The C/R at 135th slipped up and said: "This is a brook.. This is a local D train, the next stop is 125th street."
"This is a local D train" was the line the C/R gave during the whole trip. She didn't announce where the train was going until we got to 47th-50th where she said the train was going to run local and then terminate at 2nd avenue.
The first car never really got crowded, but the middle of the train sure was at the start because that's where the staircases are at 161st street. I'm assuming the train caters to Upper West Side residents who go to Yankee games. While at 81st street, a regular D passed us by on the express track and blew the horn.
A few pics from 2nd avenue:
Yes they did. I guess the TA figures Brooklynites don't go to Yanks games now. In other words, they just don't care. Extra service for Manhattan only.
How crowded were the Brooklyn bound platforms after the D Specials discharged?
Not very. We didn't take away service from the regular D train. We were simply inserted into a gap in D train service, which has slots for extra trains on the weekend.
We were an "extra" train, not a train taken away from the regular D service.
I was thinking maybe the D specials don't go to Brooklyn because it was observed that many of the riders got off in Manhattan. I can think of a few reasons why they'd avoid sending them to Brooklyn unless the ridership required it.
Anyone have any light to shed on this?
btw, the platform sign at York St. is saying F goes to coney Island already last week, I don't know if it stayed that way or had recently changed
One thing to note... Trains through 22nd avenue were absolutely flying! I barely had time to get up from taking the approach shot to get set to take the tailing shot of the same train!
The man on the opposite platform was lost. Apparently the platform was not roped off.
Apparently there was a switch there, and now it's not there. Anyone know when and why that switch was taken out?
subfan
There does't look like there was ever any trackage there. Look at other places where tracks have been removed and even painted over. There's some evidence of where the ties existed. However, this is no evidence there.
wayne
Thw man on the closed platform probably tore down the barricade on the staircase and went upstairs to wait for the train. After 2-3 trains passed him, he finally go the idea that something was up. Probably called the agent in the booth a few choice words for not "telling" him anything.
Molson Triple Quintuple X, although Jack doesn't sound all that bad either....
Okay, the man and his wife sue everyone in sight. They are awarded over $2 million including 2 payments of $500 thousand each to the wife for loss of her husband's SERVICES for the present and after his death. On appeal, the award to the wife is reduced by $800,000.00 so she gets 2 payments of $100,000 each. The injured man still gets about $1.3 mil.
Now guess who is at fault?:
[ ] The motorcyclist
[ ] The City of NY
[ ] The MTA NYC Transit
[ ] The injured man
[ ] All of the above
[ ] None of the above
Hint: Fault was apportioned.
It wasn't all of them.
It wasn't none of them.
The City of NY, who was responsible for the inoperative streetlight was found to be blameless.
The motorcyclist was found to be blameless, too
The victim was found to be partially responsible.
But the NYC Transit was found liable because by putting a bus stop under an inoperative streetlight, the judge said that the TA failed to provide a safe place for the customer to get off the bus.
I kid you not. All I can say is "Stick a fork in our society. We are done".
I want to see tort law reform, not to get big companies out of reasonable liabilities, but to get rid of the stupid stuff like this! Even if there is liability for the light (which I would personally not allow: if a 78-year old knows he can’t see very well in the dark, why doesn’t he walk along the sidewalk until he gets to another light?), shouldn’t it be the city’s responsibility?
I presume that the doctrine of big pockets applied here!
That said, the real problem here is the constant efforts at shifting blame and concurrent unwillingness to be accountable.
The light was out--why?, how long? Are we talking blown circuit, burned out lamp, or bad ballast? If not the breaker, why hadn't the ballast/lamp been serviced? I have five dollars which say the light had been out the previous several times the driver worked that route. Was it called in? Not likely because the experience is that noone in MTA wanted to field that call and NYCDOT ditto. So the demoralised driver knows better than to be perceived as a troublemaker by complaining and we end up with a disaster. Of course if NYCDOT were well enough funded (or spent its money wisely enough) the lamps would be serviced more promptly. In turn, if they could not do the repair in a timely fashion a bulletin to MTA suspending the stop at night would do. You see all of this requires initiative and attention to detail, and we ALL fail sometimes.
As to apportioning the costs, of course the cyclist's insurance should pat, but I believe the origin of going after every possible defendant was situations where the most guilty (surprise) had no means and the injuries were horrendous. For starters, if we had total health coverage as a HUMAN rught the medical cost issue would be moot.
And a final caveat, some reform is necessary in my view, BUT the demands from the corporate criminals (chemical contaminators etc) trying to weasel must be resisted.
Somewhere along the line this figures into the current $2 fare. Which means all of us are paying for that lawsuit.
Bill "Nekirk"
Since when has the farebox fully supported public transit in NYC? The taxpayer covers the TA's operating shortfalls. Since we also hired the yo-yos who didn't fix the broken light, we are all responsible.
If we don't like things like this coming out of our pockets, we should do something about the low quality of the govt.
Destinations signs you will either never see or not see every day;
DCP01887.JPG
DCP01893.JPG
DCP01898.JPG
DCP01899.JPG
WMATA is animal friendly.
DCP01916.JPG
John
Mom and Dad Canadian gees and their four little goslings. What was really amusing was watching the young jumping across the flange slot in the road crossing. Most of the goslings fell in to flange slot as they crossed the tracks.
John
I spoke to one of the competitors just before he boarded the train. He showed me his laminated destination code cards Dulles Airport (34) and Dulles Yard (93) were on his cards. He went on to tell me that the cards were a year old.
John
Let us know if you upload any other pictures, I would be interested in seeing them.
I did not notice if he changed the signs when he when he keyed up the train when he did his competition run.
Let us know if you upload any other pictures, I would be interested in seeing them.
Most of the rest of the shoots I took were more of the same stuff I took last year or were not good enough for publishing.
John
Today I saw an Av-X bound F train at 7th Av and a lot of people switching back to the Queens-bound train I was on, and later I checked the MTA's site and it said Av-X bound trains run express From Jay Street to Church Av this weekend.
I'm gonna check it out tomorrow, I've never seen those express tracks, and hopefully I'll be on an R-32.
Chuck
:-)
-Chris
Chuck
Just like comparing the LIRR or NJT to the toy railway that they have in Cantabria.
Mark
Mark
1. The IRT West Side ML (1/9) The 1-9 is the backbone of the West Side-making all local stops in a heavily crowded and growing area.
2. WMATA Red-it is the only route that does not share trackage with others and goes to many imporatnt destinations the 4 others don't.
3. MBTA Red line-orignal Cambridge-Dorchester line is one of the MBTA north-south main lines (the Orange line the other). Making stops at Harvard/MIT, Park St, South Station (hub of Amtrak's Acela & Regional/Northeastdirect service) among others (including the famous Mattapan PCC line), the Red line is the main routes through the Boston.
4. Chicago Red-another north-south line, with 24-hour service.
Matt
Matt
In Manhattan alone, excluding transfer points, the 1/2/3/9 had 156,322,168 fare registrations in 2000.
In terms of trains, the local track carries 20 trains per hour, 10 cars per train, during the morning rush, and the local track has a similar number, perhaps a bit higher. And they're crowded. Very crowded.
In each direction, that is.
These two lines may not be the most important red lines, but they were important to the redevelopment of that area.
And how could you not admire this?
-Chris
I started at Metropolitan Avenue and continued along the line to Fresh Pond Road, Forest and Seneca Avenues, and wound up at Broadway and Myrtle Av
Enjoy! I sure did.
Your pal,
Fred
Until Next time....
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Your pal,
Fred
(what the hell is a Dublic School?)
There's an engraved stone sign on the Forest Av side and the hoop on the letter P is a bit large so it looks like a D. Cracked my former bride and I up. We're a bit 'tetched'.
Your pal,
Fred
The appliance store you are referring to, Karl, is Schumacher's which is still in business. Nagengast is also still in business. I was surprised as I thought all of these kinds of stores were wiped out with the rise of the super electronics and hardware stores. I also got all my car models in the 60s from Nagengast. P.S. 93 is now I.S. (intermediate school) 93. Before the MetroMall was built in 1975, to the right of the Metro station, we used to play in the old Western Electric property.
And you'd be happy to know that Forest Pork Store is still alive and well at the same location, still great food, and right down to the old walking neon pigs walking under it's sign.
Great place and it is indeed at the corner of Forest and Woodbine.
Your pal,
Specki
Please see my "More Fun in Ritchwoot" post.
Chuck
All routes the same except:
1) The M would be a shuttle, Metro to Myrtle, all times.
2) The B and D would terminate at 34 St or 2nd Ave.
3) The W would be eliminated.
4) The N and Q would join the R through the Montague tunnel.
5) The 9 would be eliminated, and the 1 would be broken up into two sections on each side of the Broadway bridge. Being unfamiliar with the track layout, I can't give exact stations.
6) The J would relay the same way it does now when there's no Williamsburg Bridge, and the Z would be eliminated.
B: 145 or BPB to 34/6 only, no Brooklyn service
D: 205 to 34/6 only.
G: All trains to 71/FH,
F: Alternate F trains via. Croostown from Bergen St to Queens Plaza to assist with crowding from suspended J/M/Z service via. bridge
N: 86th St via. Montague tunnel to Astoria
J: 2 sections: From Jamaica Center to Hewes (Marcy Ave after Manhattan bound side reopens), plus shuttle from Essex to Broad/Chambers. Shuttle buses from Hewes to Lorimer for G and some rerouted F trains
M: Metropolitan to Broadway-Myrtle, all times
Q: Broadway to 71/Continental via. Montague tunnel
R: shuttle from 95 to 59/4 all times.
V: SUSPENDED
W: Stillwell to 57/7 via. West End line and Montague tunnel, Local in Brooklyn, express Canal to 57/7.
Z: SUSPENDED
All other routes not mentioned are not affected and no change is necessary.
9: SUSPENDED.
As a precautionary mesaure, Metro-North Hudson train bypass Marble-Hill station and transfer to shuttle buses from #1 train can be made at University Heights station.
That takes care of that problem.
(1) 215 - SF (all stops, bustitution North of 215)
(9) suspended
2-3, 4-5-6, 7, 42nd St Shuttle unchanged
IND
(B)(D) 205/BPB/145 - Herald Sq
(F) unchanged
(G) extended to Church Av
(V) extended to Church Av
A-C-E-S unchanged
BMT (South)
(B) suspended
(D) shuttle Pacific - CI
(N) via Tunnel (4th Av LOCAL)
(Q) via Tunnel
(W) suspended
R, Franklin Shuttle unchanged
BMT (East)
(J) Myrtle - Jamaica (all stops)
(M) Marcy - Metropolitan (all stops)
(L) increased service
(Z) suspended
Nassau St Line closed: use 4-5-6 instead.
1: 215 St-South Ferry. B'way-7th Ave Local
9: 242 St- 225 Street. Local.
SEVERAL articulated free shuttle busses between 225 and 215 St.
B: 21 St Queensbridge-Kings Highway. Exp 34th-W.4th then near B'way Lafayette switch to F. Culver Express from Jay Street (or from Smith-9th, whatever's possible) to Kings Highway. People on 63rd line looking for Queens service can either hop on a connecting bus to Queens Plaza or take the B backwards to Rock. Ctr for the F. Weekend and late nights, B runs only between 21 St and 2 Ave.
D: 205 Street-B'way Lafayette. Express 145-W.4th Street. Local all times north of 145. If the MTA ever decides to put a crossover switch north of Grand I'd extend it to Grand.
F: Same as now except F runs through 53rd Street Tunnel.
V: Eliminated.
Close Grand Street
G: 71 Av-Church Ave via Crosstown and Culver and Queens Blvd Local. Free metrocard transfer between Broadway on the G and Lorimer on the J. G would be 600 foot trains.
J: Jamaica Center-Marcy Ave via Jamaica/B'way El Local.
M: Metropolitan Av-Myrtle Av.
Free articulated shuttle bus between Marcy and Essex for those that have to cross the Williamsburg.
N: Pacific St-86th via 4th Ave Exp and Sea Beach. Would urge those from about 18th Ave south on the Sea Beach to use the Culver.
Q: 57 Street-CI via B'way Express (local between Canal and DeKalb), Montague Tunnel and Brighton Local. Would STRONGLY urge Brighton riders to use the Culver.
Free metrocard transfer between Jay Street and Lawrence Street- Metrotech.
R: The same as now
W: Ditmars Blvd-CI via 4th Ave Exp, Montague, Broadway Lcl, and Astoria Local and West End Local.
Z: Broad Street-Essex Street.
8-o
Robert
David
Yes, up 6th Ave, not Broadway.
David
Nah, that last one's just too much.
They need to seriously consider rotating future Games among cities with existing facilities.
Yeah, and even then, the roof was supposed to be retractable (a giant tower would lift it off, but that never worked, so the roof has become permanent.
wayne
Zach
D to Brighton Beach!!
Trains. What is those? weed rather beet around the bush: who knows maybe some rhubarb will come of it.
: )-
Da Hui
#3 West End Jeff
Chuck
There will probably also be some additional shifts between the other lines to spread the spare ratios evenly. The S will pbobably be given a dedicated set of 20 R62a's.
Being the first shell was delivered to Yonkers not even a month ago, it is doubtfull any have made it in to service yet. That would be just too fast.
The question is: what data have they given us that would substantiate a minimum of four minutes' savings per customer per trip? These are the only hard data offered:
The sharp curve requires slow train operation into the station, reducing travel speed by 30-60 seconds. Let's generously assume 60.
It takes about 5 seconds to deploy the gap fillers, and about 10 seconds to retract them, for a "delay penalty" of 15 seconds in total.
"Recovery time" is built into the schedule at chambers street, averaging 0.7 minutes (42 seconds) southbound and 1.8 minutes (108 seconds) northbound.
Southbound trains frequently provide longer dwell times at Chambers Street [sic] to allow passengers to move up to the first five cars. This extra dwell time is not quantified in the DEA, and apparently is partly redundant to the "recovery time" mentioned above.
Add it all up, and the guaranteed time savings is, at best, 60 + 15 + 108 seconds, or a shade over three minutes.
But wait! In lieu of "recovery time" at Chambers Street, recovery time will now be built into the schedule at South Ferry. Trains arriving there won't leave instantaneously. The crew needs to change ends, the brakes need to be recharged, and so forth. So, from the three minutes allegedly saved, you must subtract the planned recovery time at the new South Ferry Terminal, which is not quantified, but which one must assume is at least ninety seconds.
Therefore, the typical amount of time saved per trip can't be much better than 1.5 minutes. From the data presented, I can't see how they possibly get to 4-6 minutes per trip. While I can't agree with those who've posted here that the design will reduce the capacity of the line, I don't see how it will increase it to the extent claimed.
I would add that the current planned recovery time at Chambers Street isn't necessarily a bad thing, as it increases the possibility that northbound (2) and (3) riders who transfer to the local will find a train already waiting for them. Those who boarded the local at South Ferry are made to wait a minute or two, but they would have waited anyway. The MTA isn't proposing to eliminate recovery time from the route, but merely to transfer it from Chambers Street to South Ferry.
Incidentally, the DEA presents many other benefits of the new terminal, and most of them are entirely sound. I remain skeptical of whether this project is a worthy use of 9/11 recovery money, but no doubt it is a worthy undertaking. However, the claimed time savings benefits don't appear to add up.
Going southbound you might save perhaps 2 minutes or so since the train can hightail it straight to SF instead of waiting at Chambers. On the other hand, coming fro way uptown I'm almost always on a downtown express, and often the local will be waiting across the platform - under the new plan that train would already be en route to SF.
Going northbound it doesn't seem there's much savings at all. Most of the SF curve is encountered *after* making the station stop, so that's where a lot of the delay is. But under the current system, the train hightails it to Chambers, where it waits, where transfer can be made between the local and express. If the train's sitting at SF for the same length of time, then no such transfer can be made.
I also didn't find any specific arguments as to why no sort of platform extension model was found to be satisfactory other than "this plan was not found satisfactory." Building a new SF station is a solution awaiting a problem.
This argument that the temporary memorial for 9/11 needs to be moved is a week arguement. People will still come to see it and pay thier respects if they moved it to the other side of the park
Start the building. We need the improvement and the tax dollars the project will generate with federal money
Agreed. There are no trees from 1625 here; Battery Park was built on landfill. The loss of a tree, and its replacement by a new one, hurts for about 10-15 years. Objection to tree loss is just another example of the preferences of those who don't have a long term committment to the city, like high debts and rich pensions combined with limited infrastructure improvments and lower wages for future employees.
There is no comparison between a 15 year old tree and a 50 year old tree in terms of majesty and pleasant shade. To my mind trees are a valid issue, though not the only one. I have lived in the city for 30 years and expect to live here another 40, and trees are very important to me.
I don't know about Battery Park, but too often agencies are too lazy to think of a way to preserve the bits of nature we have. At first the Union Square renovation was going to obliterate some beautiful old trees, but with enough complaints they figured out a way to save them. I haven't heard anyone here complain that transit objectives were damaged.
In this case, that could easily be true. I just object to the theory that 50 or 100 year old trees have no significant value.
Mature trees indeed do have a significant value, if for no other reason than that they cannot be replaced for many years.
Makes you wonder. The platform extension option would save a lot of money, and a lot of construction time, while solving the most important problem -- only half the train platforms. But the curve itself increases operating costs -- rails have to be replaced more often, the platform extenders need to be serviced, OPTO -- if it ever arrives -- would require a conductor on a platform because of the curve. Perhaps these costs are real, while the federal funding for the new station seems free.
I'm not sure that's the most important problem; it's certainly not the only one. Among the others listed are: the extra time it takes to enter and leave the station (exaggerated in the DEA, but relevant nonetheless); a station with just one exit, and that a relatively narrow staircase; no ADA compliance; lack of operational flexibility to take trains out of service, or to have more than one train in the station.
I can't see that a terminal station with no tail tracks would allow faster entry and exit.
(a station with just one exit, and that a relatively narrow staircase; no ADA compliance;)
The station should be rehabbed and modernized, no question, and the half-platform issue should be solved. That doesn't require a new station.
(Lack of operational flexibility to take trains out of service, or to have more than one train in the station.)
That may be an added benefit to the proposed new configuration.
The proposed design does, in fact, have tail tracks.
More than one train in the station? How about using the inner loop? Sure, the train can't platform, but if it has to be kept out of the way that's a good place to put it without interfering with revenue service.
wayne
Which pisses off passengers on the 1 train more than it pleases arriving express passengers. This is one of the reasons MTA feels comfortable dispensing with it. Given a good frequency of trains, arriving express passengers will catch their local soon enough.
"I also didn't find any specific arguments as to why no sort of platform extension model was found to be satisfactory other than "this plan was not found satisfactory."
Here you may have a point. They should have elaborated.
I guess their version of the alternative doesn't include an elevator. No reason it couldn't.
But, under the platform extension plan it seems at least the last 2 cars will not require gap fillers, so those can be the "handicapped accessible" entrances. Alternately, the gap fillers could be modified (at additional expense, of course) - if the mind of man is insufficiently ingenious to develop a platform that moves 18 inches and is wheelchair accessible, then we're in big trouble as a species...
You missed the other delay factors such as.... passengers who didn't get into the first five cars... and that one trains will frequently bunch at South Ferry. Which adds maybe another 45-60 seconds of delays, putting it at over 4 minutes. If you sit at South Ferry during the rush hours, you see literarlly one 1 train after another. So you're going to sit there waiting.
Now you got your 4 minutes.
The DEA claims that "all customers would benefit from an average of almost four minutes" (emphasis added). Not all customers fail to move to the first five cars, so this savings isn't isn't part of the 4 minutes. (The DEA said that some customers would save as much as 6 minutes.)
The DEA also says that southbound trains frequently wait at Chambers Street, to avoid further "bunching" at South Ferry. If there is additional wait time elsewhere on the line, the DEA did not say so. From the data they presented, you can't get to an average savings of 4 minutes per person per trip, which is the claim they're making.
The tph remains UNCHANGED... They are not talking about train frequency (Which is controled by the limits of the Van Courtlandt station anyway.)
They are talking about people and movement improvements between the train and the boat.
Which is ALSO BOGUS, since they ain't changing the frequency of the obats either.
So their "Time Savings" sad to say are ALL BOGUS, and a Male Bovine By-Product-poo.
Elias
The proposed design has tail tracks, which means it will be able to turn trains as fast as Times Square on the 7. Assuming the new station gets built, the northern terminus at 242/VCP will be the line's bottleneck.
I'm pretty sure there are none. The original plan had them, but it placed the station a long way from the ferry terminal, and would have required many more trees to be removed. The proposed plan is hard by the harbor, with no tail tracks, unless there was a subsequent revision.
I'm pretty sure there are none. The original plan had them, but it placed the station a long way from the ferry terminal, and would have required many more trees to be removed. The proposed plan is hard by the harbor, with no tail tracks, unless there was a subsequent revision.
My source is the Draft Environmental Assessment posted on the MTA website. The tail tracks are there. The proposed plan is not "hard by the harbor."
The tail tracks at Times Square about 500 feet long. If the tail tracks in the proposed terminal aren't about the same lengths, then there's no comparison.
Stephen Bauman has compared the proposed South Ferry terminal to Jamaica Center. Both have tail tracks (if anything, Jamaica Center's seem to be longer) and both apparently have similarly placed crossovers. Jamaica Center handles a maximum of 12 tph.
F.Y.I. from what various people who told me the tail tracks on the E line go 3000 ft past the station. J line I couldn't tell you.
Figure 5 shows the location of the station, the crossover switch and the lack of tail tracks.
One can use Acrobat to copy this entire graphic and paste it into a pixel editing application, e.g. Corel PhotoPaint. One can then use the pixel editor's color replacement tool to remove some of the background colors for the park to make the track and station area clearer.
One can then import the cleaned up pixel image and import it into a vector drawing package, e.g. Corel Draw. Then using the measurement tool, one can accurately measure platform length and the distance of the switch from the station platform against the scale shown in the figure.
If one does this, one would find that the platform length is approximately 523 feet long and that the switch is approximately 374 feet from the station entrance. As a final sanity check, one should also measure the length of the Whitehall St platform. This comes to 620 feet and gives some idea regarding the accuracy of this procedure.
The platform length is entirely consistent with a 10-car IRT platform ending in a bumper block.
As a final check one should compare Fig. 5 with Appendix C - Figure 3 to make sure that the entire project boundary ends with the station. One can repeat the measurement technique and come up with the same result regarding platform length and distance from the switch.
1. The Legend Reads "Conceptiual Plan" meaning it aint a finished plan, just a concept, not all details are shown.
2. Assuming that it is somewhat lower than the BMT Line, there is plenty of room to add tail tracks.
3. With a little more construction width, there ought to be plenty of room to build the flying crossover that I have suggested.
Elias
All the diagrams (see fig 3 in Appendix C) are pretty specific on the project boundary. The project appears to be the south end of the station. If you find solace in the "Conceptual Plan", then you will get apoplexy because fig 3 states: "Final Draft".
2. Assuming that it is somewhat lower than the BMT Line, there is plenty of room to add tail tracks.
Even if it were, extending tail tracks under the BMT would involve a large underpinning expense.
Besides, the emergency stopping distance at 40 mph is 495 feet (including 35% safety margin). That would put the tail tracks past the water line, if the tracks were extended from what appears to be the south end of the platform.
OTOH, if the platform were moved further north, then the station platform would be a couple of blocks from the ferry.
The MTA's response to this dilemma appears to be not including terminal and by extension line capacity as one of the design criteria.
Yup... The Final *draft* of the Conceptual Plan.
You should see how many "Final Drifts" it takes to build a warship!
No wonder the damn things cost so much and take forever to build.
Elias
Correct, curving toward the LIRR ROW it at one time was supposed to climb onto.
The J line has tail tracks going straight east under Archer Av, for the length of at least one full train (700 feet?)
With a decent set of tail tracks, trains could fly in and out of such a station.
Elias
With a decent set of tail tracks, trains could fly in and out of such a station.
Elias
Delays at Chambers St s/b have been created by Transit, since the A Div ACTO has tossed the 1 Line Memo which allowed C/Rs to let customers pass through their position at Rector and South Ferry.
As someone else noted, teh gap fillers are responsible for about 20 seconds of 'delay' time. And, in 13 years of living in SI, I've known them to fail twice, as opposed to those at Union Sq, which I've known to fail many more times.
WTF? You are confused.
Besides the point is, a 1 track loop is outdated terminal. It's a lot of noise as well.
ALL BOGUS POINTS.
Even most people opposed to the project consider South Ferry to be antiquated. The only people who think the station is great are the rail buffs who post here, including you apparently.
The signal system is designed to make it (nearly) impossible for a train to hit an obstruction, such as another train or a wall. If a terminal ends in a wall, the signal system must force trains to slow to a crawl -- otherwise, an out-of-control train could easily run into the station at full speed and ram into the wall. Timers (or AK signals) ensure that, if the train is tripped at any point on the approach, it will be moving slowly enough that the brakes will bring it to a safe stop before it hits the bumper block.
With sufficiently long tail tracks, the train doesn't encounter any timers until it's past the end of the platform -- i.e., under normal operating conditions, the train can enter the station at full speed. Plant trains on those tail tracks and the terminal becomes no better than (e.g.) the WTC terminal.
All I said is that there must be timers (or the like) approaching bumper blocks -- not that there can't be timers anywhere else. No terminal with bumper blocks and no tail tracks can possibly handle 26-28 tph; a well designed terminal with tail tracks (like Times Square) possibly could.
Leave SF as is.
It doesn't prove your point to show that SF is as bad as one of the least modern stations in the system.
Some rail buffs like to go into subway stations where they can get their eardrums blasted by express trains rolling through. While that may be an impressive event, it's not good for your hearing. The MTA's creation of a straight platform and other noise reduction methods are good for public health.
If I have to choose between preserving the hearing of people who use or work in the subway, and a few rail buffs' thrills, well, hey, to hell with the rail buffs. I'm just being honest.
I'm sorry if the current South Ferry station offends your sense of aesthetics, but a subway line is primarily a mode of transportation. Does the proposed terminal permit the 1 line to do a better job as a mode of transportation? Only once that question is answered in the affirmative do the other questions become at all relevant.
Modern subway systems, like WMATA, tend to have deep stations that take a long time to reach. I kind of like the outdated IRT model, with most stations one short flight down. Sometimes outdated works best.
I assuming (if and when we will ever see the first segment of the SAS in our lifetime), that the Second Ave subway line stations will not be too deep, at most 2-3 levels down.
Assuming your point, you can wipe out Jamaica-Van Wyck because it can take a good 30-45 seconds from the escalator to fare control alone.
Well, not just the IRT, although you are right it is typical of COntract One stations. However, many other stations have this design too. For example, many of the BMT Broadway Line stations such as 49th and 23rd, etc. As a general rule, IND stations take the longest to get from street level to platform level, certainly more on average than IRT or BMT stations.
Not according the depth of Jamaica-Van Wyck station.
As I said earlier, Jamaica-Van Wyck is not much deeper than your typical IRT local, or Lenox Ave station, but we agree it's a pain to walk up to 300 feet from either of the station's two exits to fare control.
They will, on average, be considerably deeper than most NYCT stations. This is partly because they want to bore through bedrock wherever possible, to avoid surface impacts. Also, there is a lot more infrastructure in place today than when the other lines were built. The SAS will generally pass beneath existing transit lines.
The shallowest SAS stations will be 116th, 106th and 96th, all at approx. 40 feet, because the existing cut-and-cover tunnels from the 1970s are at that depth. But half of the 16 stations will be at depths of 80 feet or more, and several will be at 100 feet or more. See Chapter 2, page 16, of the FEIS.
The FEIS says that all of them will have elevators, and I'm pretty sure it says escalators too. Clearly the deeper ones *must* have them. Even the shallower SAS stations are still deeper than the typical NYCT station. Also, most of the shallower ones are in Harlem, and I hardly need tell you what would happen if *only* the Harlem stations lacked escalators.
I agree with OakApple's reply to you.
I need to go back and look at the DEA specifics on how the new South Ferry station interacts with Whitehall. The question in my mind would be "Can a passenger using the ADA entrance at South Ferry then gain access to Whitehall Street platforms?" I don't remember if in those past posts I made reference to a desire for ADA compliant transfer from South Ferry to Whitehall St.
If conruction feasibility is an issue (when isn't it?) then having one common point for a wheelchair to get to the platforms, even if through a transfer, is better than no access at all.
Whatever is possible to do...
True, but this is not time a passenger spends waiting on the train to get to a destination. The passengers have already departed, so they don't care. The train recharge time does not count as far as passengers are concerned. It is crew business.
It's true that the recharge and turn time affects the frequency of departure . But if the departure schedule for the 1 train is the same after the station is rebuilt, then it doesn't matter.
"Therefore, the typical amount of time saved per trip can't be much better than 1.5 minutes."
False statement, as I have proved above. The TA is concerned about what a passenger experiences waiting on a train which is delayed in its journey south to the terminal.
"I would add that the current planned recovery time at Chambers Street isn't necessarily a bad thing, as it increases the possibility that northbound (2) and (3) riders who transfer to the local will find a train already waiting for them."
Maybe, if that happened consistently, but you have presented no data to support it.
"The MTA isn't proposing to eliminate recovery time from the route, but merely to transfer it from Chambers Street to South Ferry."
Yes, and that's a GOOD decision. They are eliminating recovery time from a point where passengers on a train feel inconvenienced to a point where they clearly do not.
You're confusing the issues, but the core of your argument is basically just a rail-buff type reaction to a proposed change in service. The only theoretical drawback to the plan is that railbuffs don't get to go around the Loop anymore. That's it.
Folks, read before you post. The document says that the loop track will be maintained.
I should have made that clear.
There is no crew change on the 5 at Bowling Green or South Ferry.
You need to look long term when the system will be operated automated where the need for crew end change and brake recahrge will no longer be and issue.
The MTA needs to break the unions objections and make both crew memebers able to drive the train eliminating some of the end change issues. The conductor would move to the front and make the change quicker
Why do they have BREAK the union. scab consultants like you who get fat by advising MANGEment on how to drive down the American standard of living are a huge threat in the crisis America faces. Good thing the MTA isn't buying. Increased automation is a good thing when the benefits are shared by labor and management. America's future depends on a strong labor movement that can work together with management to modernize workers' skills along with automation while those who advocate a headlong rush to destroy workers' jobs through automation deserve total boycott into insolvency.
Why do they have BREAK the union. scab consultants like you who get fat by advising MANGEment on how to drive down the American standard of living are a huge threat in the crisis America faces. Good thing the MTA isn't buying. Increased automation is a good thing when the benefits are shared by labor and management. America's future depends on a strong labor movement that can work together with management to modernize workers' skills along with automation while those who advocate a headlong rush to destroy workers' jobs through automation deserve total boycott into insolvency.
While we're on this subject, why does the crew change on the N train at Kings Highway take so long? The crew should be on the platform and ready to go when the train arrives.
Yadda yadda yadda...
The SCHEDULE of the (N) train does not require that kind of frequency.
One or two trains a day... what is that... why the rush?
: )-
One or two trains a day... what is that... why the rush? "
I am sureif you are a rider on that train you would feel differntly
I'm actually talking about the crew change made at Kings Highway going sothbound, where the train remains idle for a while before resuming the run to 86th St. with the new crew on board.
Thank you for posting that.
Let me put it in terms basic enough for you to understand.
Case #1: You wait for a train at South Ferry. It arrives, you board, and it leaves right away. At Chambers Street, you have an additional wait--what the DEA calls "recovery time." This is the status quo.
Case #2: You arrive at South Ferry, and the next northbound train is already in the station. However, it does not leave right away. You take your seat and wait for it to depart. Once it does depart, there is no wait at Chambers Street. This is the proposal.
Either way, you've waited. The only thing different is where you waited.
False statement, as I have proved above. The TA is concerned about what a passenger experiences waiting on a train which is delayed in its journey south to the terminal.
You've proved no such thing. Go ahead, read the DEA, and tell us how you get to 4-6 minutes saved. Remember, they're claiming this benefit will occur on every trip, not just southbound trips.
(Unlike some Subtalkers, I do not claim that there's some kind of conspiracy to lie about the numbers. I'm just observing that the actual claimed savings isn't substantiated in the document. Maybe the total savings is correct, and they've just failed to tell us how they arrived at it.)
Maybe, if that happened consistently, but you have presented no data to support it.
I'm not obligated to produce data. I am pointing out the lack of data to support the claimed 4-6 minute average savings on all trips. I didn't come up with that figure, they did. The actual numbers provided don't add up to that.
You're confusing the issues, but the core of your argument is basically just a rail-buff type reaction to a proposed change in service.
Incorrect. I'm adding up their own numbers, and they don't agree with the claimed total. This is grade-school arithmetic. Go ahead, read the numbers yourself, and tell us what you come up with. I already know the answer---you can't get there from the data provided.
Since he lives in Kansas City, maybe Dorothy can loan him a house and it gets hit by a tornado and he winds up in Emerald City.
I think Newkirk's post speaks for itself (and not well, but that Dave's responsibility).
You have been very civil and sensible as of late, and I like that. As a result, you've posted a lot more good information on Subtalk, which I've enjoyed reading.
True for the 25% who remain on the train at Chambers.
Untrue for the 75% who get off at Chambers. In the current arrangement, they don't have to wait.
Case #2: You arrive at South Ferry, and the next northbound train is already in the station. However, it does not leave right away. You take your seat and wait for it to depart. Once it does depart, there is no wait at Chambers Street. This is the proposal. "
Correct, and there's a difference. Passengers don't like having their train stop and then having to wait, ad wait for it to get going again.
Case #2 communicates that the train is not scheduled to leave yet. Passengers are a lot more comfortable with that, esp. if they know the frequency of departure to expect, than with case #1. That's why there is a difference between "passenger" and "railbuff."
You have made several claims for which you have no data. If you want to be taken seriously, you have to back up what you say, and you don't. Your arguments about the MTA's claims are clearly false, as I have again shown above.
I'm glad you don't see conspiracies, but your post still doesn't amount to much more than railbuff ranting, though you're polite about it. Your views, which you are welcome to express of course, have no connection to what passengers other than railbuffs care about.
If
However, the DEA says that these passengers will save 4-6 minutes.
It doesn't say what you're apparently saying---that passengers wait in either case, but that they prefer not to have their trip interrupted. You could be right about this passenger preference (and then again you could also be wrong), but it doesn't get us to 4-6 minutes saved per trip.
You have made several claims for which you have no data.
You're confusing me with Stephen Baumann. Stephen makes claims that have been verified by no one. It is reasonable to criticize him for lacking data---especially as the claims are so extraordinary.
I, on the other hand, am simply asking, "Where are the 4-6 minutes that the MTA claims every passenger will save?" I am further observing that, if you add up the numbers they've actually given, you don't get 4-6 minutes. As far as I can tell, you're not disputing this. It isn't for me to present any data, because 4-6 minutes are not my numbers to begin with.
Now, the 4-6 minutes may in fact be quite true. Unlike some conspiracy theorists, I am not accusing them of fraud. However, it's a fact that MTA officials have given different accounts to various reporters and community boards when asked what the time savings would be, so it's reasonable to ask where the 4-6 minutes come from, so that we can assess for ourselves how realistic it is.
...your post still doesn't amount to much more than railbuff ranting.
Actually, I am not a railbuff at all, but I do know how to add, and the numbers presented don't sum to 4-6 minutes. This is a pretty elementary point: either they sum to 4-6, or they don't. If you or anyone else out there can make the numbers add up to that, pray tell us how you accomplish it.
Actually, that's what it means.
"You could be right about this passenger preference (and then again you could also be wrong), but it doesn't get us to 4-6 minutes saved per trip."
Yes, it does, because any time spent waiting when you first board at South Ferry going northbound doesn't count. If you're the average commuter, you get to know when your train is leaving; you can decide whether or not to get that cup of coffee before you go down the stairs, or whether to leave the house earlier or later, etc. If you time it right, you'll board the train with maybe a minute to spare, and you're on your way.
Theoretically, you should be able to do that for a predictable waiting period elsewhere along the line. If you're a railbuff, you're doing the math in your head. Everybody else -no way. And you dare not leave the train for fear of it leaving without you...
"You have made several claims for which you have no data.
You're confusing me with Stephen Baumann."
No, I'm not. Actually, Stephen does use a lot of data. He often misapplies it or his translation to real practical use suffers a hiccup. His claims are extraordinary, it's true.
In this particular case, you have no data at all. But you can get data, and come back and post it. It may or may not back you up. I believe it will not, but you have ample opportunity to prove otherwise.
Forget the non-arithmetic you've been messing with here. Go back and find some real data.
I'm usually in one of the first rows of people getting off the boat, and if you've seen me walk, I like to keep up a good pace. I get on the train at SF, stand clear of the closing doors, hightail it up to Chambers, where I get off as fast as possible to transfer to the first uptown express that catches my fancy. Heading uptown I usually lap anywhere between 1 (weekends) to 4 (rush hours) locals, and then get back on the local at 96th.
Under the new plan, I would very likely miss that express I used to be able to catch, while I'm sitting there twiddling my thumbs in this train sitting in the station with the doors open. Depending on the combined 2-3 headways, I likely lose anywhere from 3 to 10 minutes under the new plan.
Is my experience universal? Of course not. But this is the way I feel, and judging from my cohorts deboarding the boat and then dumping the local for the express at Chambers, I'm certainly not the only one. My bottom line is, Chambers is a much better place to wait since transfer between the local and the express is available. I'm intelligent enough to see right through this charade of "it doesn't count if the train hasn't started going yet," and I suspect most customers are as well - the primary passenger load comes from people who get off the ferry, and the ferry arrives at a definite time, so from the time of the ferry's arrival to the time that the train departs (however long or short that is) for the most part you have a captive audience, sitting there twiddling their thumbs. They're going to have to wait somewhere anyway, so it might as well be at a transfer station.
You have no choice - it's either that or get run over by the cattle herd behind you...:0)
"Heading uptown I usually lap anywhere between 1 (weekends) to 4 (rush hours) locals, and then get back on the local at 96th."
You're going a long way. That's a very atypical commute on the West End IRT. It also means you have a lot of opportunity to lose time by waiting for a transfer.
"Under the new plan, I would very likely miss that express I used to be able to catch, while I'm sitting there twiddling my thumbs in this train sitting in the station with the doors open. Depending on the combined 2-3 headways, I likely lose anywhere from 3 to 10 minutes under the new plan. "
AsI said before, your commute is far from typical. But even you don't necessarily have to lose time.
You're assuming that the TA will not adjust the train departure schedules. You are welcome to bring this up at the hearing: If the TA matches the departure of the 1 more closely to the arrival of the ferry, then you're not sitting there twiddling your thumbs. That's easier to do and more appropriate than keeping an old station the way it is and inconveniencing a lot of other people.
Transit will NOT attempt to match subway departures to ferry arrivals. Look at current service on the late nights: ferry arrives every hour on the 27.5, train leaves SF at 28, 48 and 08. this leaves you 30 seconds to run from the front of the boat, under the terminal, around the construction zone, into the station, swipe, down the stairs.
Once we get to the height of rush hour, trains arrive (and depart) every 3 minutes, ferries every 15. Ferries have a 5 minute 'window' in which they show up. How do you schedule departures around arrivals that do that?
So it's already very tight!
"Once we get to the height of rush hour, trains arrive (and depart) every 3 minutes, ferries every 15. Ferries have a 5 minute 'window' in which they show up. How do you schedule departures around arrivals that do that?"
Good question. So you've answered my question (posted aftyer you posted), "Is it easier to adjust the subway or the ferry?" I suppose theanswer is neither, because of the inherent variability of the ferry."
Can the ferry not hew to a tighter than five minute window? Is that just not possible to do (due to boarding variability, tides, currents, weather etc.)?
It's the commute home when this is more likely to be an issue. In the morning, with trains five times more frequent than ferries, it's no great loss if you narrowly miss an uptown 1/9 train; another is very close behind. But on the way home, if you narrowly miss a ferry, you have at least a 15-minute wait--more than that if you're commuting off-peak.
No doubt many a ferry passenger has noticed this as the train sits at Chambers for people to move up to the first five cars.
Very nice observation on your part.
I agree that the northbound savings is de minimus, although RIB has been attempting strenuously to argue otherwise.
However, the savings southbound is genuine. According to the DEA, there will no longer be a hold at Chambers--it'll be just a normal stop, and the train will move on. Southbound customers will save some time, although perhaps not the 4-6 minutes claimed.
(2) Because the loop only platforms the first five cars, so as a courtesy to those not "in the know" the trains are held for a minute or so at Rector and Chambers to give the geese a chance to move forward.
(1) is a genuine problem, but (2) IMHO isn't. (2) only affects a small number of customers, and there are 3 potential solutions, starting in the order of the most generous:
(a) extend the existing loop platform so the holds are unnecessary
(b) allow the geese to walk through the train past the C/R's operating position - they used to be able to do just this, but more recently that hasn't been allowed, so the geese have to walk along the length of the platform.
(c) the hell with holds - tell them to get off, walk the length of the platform and take the next train - it's only a cost of a few minutes incurred for that small number of passengers during the day (as opposed to incurring a somewhat smaller cost for a much, much larger group of passengers), and at night and weekends, the C/R can hold for a minute or so if he/she sees passengers walking toward the front.
You omitted the most important parameter.
Your knowledge of maritime operationas is as superficial as your your knowledge of subway operations at South Ferry.
:0)
If one wants to establish any kind of transportation system, its schedule should be reliable. Therefore, vehicle/vessel size and power should be able to handle the normal variability that nature provides in the form of wind, currents and tides. Similarly vehicle/vessel design should and scheduled recovery should take care of any variablilty introduced by loading levels. Finally, management should make sure that the hired hands (crews) do not introduce so much variability so as to make scheduled operation unreliable.
These are the aspects that any decent ferry operation should account for as a matter of course. Anybody with a superficial understanding might consider these as legitimate reasons for not being able to hold a schedule. A ferry operator would not.
One factor that the ferry operator cannot control, that is fairly unpredictible, on a daily and hourly basis, is harbor traffic. This is especially true for the SI ferry because the St George terminal is at the entrance of the Kill Van Kull shipping channel. A freighter or tanker passing directly in front of the St. George terminal can easily delay a ferry from leaving the dock for five minutes.
I gather you haven't spent much time at the St. George terminal. :-)
It isn't a charade, and most customers don't really think that way. As I pointed out, if you know roughly when a train is leaving you can do other things before you go into the subway station (buy a newspaper, get a sweet roll etc.). Holding up a train at a transfer station when you can also wait on the same platform is an idea that is overdue to be discarded.
"for the most part you have a captive audience, sitting there twiddling their thumbs"
You obviously take these people for granted (that's the rail buff view). MTA does not.
I challenge you to find that anywhere in the DEA. A chapter and page number citation will suffice. I may not always agree with David of Broadway, but at least he says where he's getting his facts from.
I'm not even sure if you've read the DEA, but I have. It specifically says that the purported 4-6 minute savings includes access and egress time. It is not limited to close-of-doors to opening-of-doors.
It is really quite simple. The numbers add up to 4-6 minutes, or they don't. Right now they don't. Find it if you can.
In every MTA study that I have read, the time saved for commuters is measured by the total travel time. Not only does the South Ferry document explitly say this, but they always say this. I believe this is a Federal standard for transit studies.
So there can be no doubt that the 4-6 minute saving, whether real or not, is over the entire commute.
Agreed. But there is still room there for your misinterpretation, which I have demonstrated to you.
I won't belabor the point, bcause you've made up your mind - but when you're not in as defensive a mood, you might try reexamining the DEA and seeing what you learn.
Funny you're always telling other people what they need to learn. I call 'em as I see 'em. Is it so irrational to observe that the numbers don't add up?
It's defensive behavior when someone points out to you that you have not made an observation.
It's not in the DEA, nor does it have to be. The DEA doesn't have to offer you a citation for basic addition and subtraction either.
"It specifically says that the purported 4-6 minute savings includes access and egress time."
Time spent climbing stairs, descending stairs, using an elevator, riding the train etc. However, the time you arrive at a station is variable that you, the passenger, control (exception: Staten Island Ferry arrival), not the MTA, so that does not enter into MTA's calculation.
It is nobody's fault but your own if you hold a predetermined conclusion and then misinterpret data because you don't want to let go of a conclusion that neither MTA nor its customers accept. The MTA also assumes that people reading its documents can competently interpret data, but its executives understand that people will also come into this with preset agendas and unfortunately, as in your case, this lowers the level of debate due to the chicanery involved.
However, you have made a conribution here - MTA needs to adjust the departure schedule for the #1 train so that the lag between ferry arrival and train departure is shorter. Vice-versa is true too - how about having a train arrive followed by a sooner departure of the ferry?
Which brings us to another question: Would it be easier to adjust the ferry than the subway? And how tight would that connection be before people would complain "I don't have enough time to get to the train," esp. people who cannot walk quickly?
Bring all this up at the hearing. I hope you get to go.
Now, we finally have the first comment you've made on this subject that is accurate. You are absolutely right----they are not obligated to back up any of their claims. However, doing so inspires confidence in the result. Failing to do so undermines confidence. The SAS FEIS is a good example of a document that backs up its claims; this one does not.
>>>>"It specifically says that the purported 4-6 minute savings includes access and egress time." <<<<
Time spent climbing stairs, descending stairs, using an elevator, riding the train etc.
Correct again---you have accurately defined "access" and "egress." But if the purported 4-6 minute savings includes improvements to access, it would be most odd if the calculation of the commute time is interrputed for the 1-3 minutes the passenger sits waiting in the train, which you are claiming doesn't count against the time saved.
And as I noted in my follow-up, every MTA MIS/EIS/DEIS/FEIS I've read measures travel time, and time saved, against the total commute. Perhaps they changed their methodology for this one project, but it would be distinctly odd, especially as the SAS FEIS, published by the same transit authority in the same week, uses the traditional approach.
They do back up their claims. You're the one who's out in left field.
On subtalk it's harmless. But at places like public hearings or in MTA offices or with most other passengers, the kind of line of argument you follow leads to my hearing things like "It's the train geeks again," followed by a dismissal - an attitude which closes people's minds to you. I don't like it, and I don't abide by it, but after reading your posrs in this thread I understand where it comes from. People lose patience.
"Correct again---you have accurately defined "access" and "egress." But if the purported 4-6 minute savings includes improvements to access, it would be most odd if the calculation of the commute time is interrputed for the 1-3 minutes the passenger sits waiting in the train,"
Not odd at all, since (except for the Ferry) a passenger starting out at a terminal is in control of when he/she arrives at a station. Te same is not true later down the line, when you are part of the captive audience.
But let's say we include it with the Ferry, because Ferry passengers can be considered a captive audience. For a train leaving every 3-4 minutes the average waiting time would be about 1.5-2minutes minutes (and we know the Ferry's arrival has that 5 minute window inside of which there is variation).
So perhaps we claim that this reduces the time savings to 2 or 2.5 minutes to 4 or 4.5 minutes, somewhere in there?
Call MTA and see what they tell you about that. Or submit your claim for the record and see what the agency's response is when a final version is issued.
Time spent climbing stairs, descending stairs, using an elevator, riding the train etc.
Correct again---you have accurately defined "access" and "egress." But if the purported 4-6 minute savings includes improvements to access,
So here's one for you - the current SF station is one level below ground and is X many feet from the ferry terminal, with the "regular" exit (the one in the middle of the current platform) incorporated into the new Terminal building currently being constructed. The new SF station must be deeper than the current station (since the loop is being left intact) and the exit will be Y feet from the terminal (with Y being less than X by some indeterminate amount) - and not incorporated into the terminal building. Will the time saved by not crossing distance Y-X be greater than the time spent climbing from new depth of platform? If not access/egress time has grown not lessened.
Access time will grow regardless because the new Whitehall ferry terminal will be far less efficient in moving passengers from the ferry to the street.
Does anybody know of what sort of terminal building/station complex they are planning on building on top of this marvelous new station?
I should expect to see some airport style people movers. Something moving from the boat room directly to the platform areas. If they are thinking, to the northern end of the platform so that people will spread out on this train.
Elias
There is no above-ground terminal building associated with the South Ferry project. There will be three new entrances constructed, but none of them will have an actual "terminal building." Almost all of the South Ferry project is below ground.
And nobody going to save squat in time without such a contrivance.
Elias
And nobody going to save squat in time without such a contrivance.
It's not clear where you're proposing this people mover would go. The new entrance near Whitehall Ferry Terminal doesn't appear to leave ferry riders any worse off than they were before, although I agree that the improvement, if any, is not clear.
There will also be two newe entrances, which will actually make the station more convenient for certain riders (e.g., those working along the Water Street corridor). According to the DEA, only 43% of the station's users are from the Staten Island Ferry; the other 57% are going to, or coming from, elsewhere.
The new terminal will also be an improvement for Ferry riders who prefer the Broadway Line (as they won't have to cross the plaza at street level to get to their train), and it will be an improvement for Broadway Line riders coming from Brooklyn, who get a free transfer to the Seventh Avenue Line.
The Whitehall station is also supposed to develop an out-of-the-weather access to the Ferry Terminal Building as part of the ferry (DOT) project.
snip
Case #2 communicates that the train is not scheduled to leave yet. Passengers are a lot more comfortable with that, esp. if they know the frequency of departure to expect, than with case #1. That's why there is a difference between "passenger" and "railbuff."
Next time you come to NYC, hang out at 57/7 on the weekend and watch how many people get nutsy because the Q isn't leaving as soon as they get on it. I personally have been yelled at about this at least twice a month over the last few years. Assuming that I am not the only member of a train crew that this happens to, there are a fair number of people that want the train to move, schedule or no.
Advantages that new SF station has over Extended loop:
None
Advantages extended loop has over new station
Better capacity
Cheaper
Transfer at chambers
no or MUCH less construction conequences
So... WHY are we wasting money on this?
Advantages extended loop has over new station
Better capacity
Cheaper
Transfer at chambers
no or MUCH less construction conequences
So... WHY are we wasting money on this?
Come on lincoln! Bad form! You sound like Sheldon Silver
There are problems with an extended loop idea....
1. Continued use of Gap Fillers which mean if they break, they're are problems and they cost to maintain.
2. The curve will be still be a limiting factor
3. Since it's only 1 track bottlenecking will still occur during the rush hours, slowing down 1 line service.
If a two track is done, then the line will be able to keep their TPH higher. South Ferry Loop is the limitng factor of the entire 1 line. Replacing it with a two track terminal that can turn 26-28 TPH and a proper crew quarters will increase the capacity of the 1 line.
1. Straight Track
2. Two Tracks, so that 1 trains can enter and exit faster, and that crew changes can happen with out bottlenecking the line.
3. No gap fillers, cheaper station to maintain in the long run
4. SOUND REDUCTION! The decible levels at the South Ferry station are problematic.
5. A new tower can be built protecting Chambers Street interlocking, and the line south of Chambers, putting everything in 1 area, saving on costs even more.
It's a much better idea than extending the loop. You still keep the same problems, it's just now all 10 cars can discharge passengers. What happens if a train breaks down at South Ferry Loop? Remember before 9/11 there was no X crossover at Rector, so if a train broke down at South Ferry, there could be no service south of Chambers stopping the entire flow of the 7th Avenue line as 1 trains would have to turn at Chambers. With a two track terminal, if a train breaks down while in the station, the line doesn't stop. Flow can be maintained.
The Upper Level where the current 1 line is, can be made into the 5 Line Crew Changing area, where it doesn't have to change crew at Bowling Green preventing bottlenecking from occuring on the 4,5 lines.
Depends where. At Times Square on the 7, where a crew that's slow will screw up the whole line, they seem to be pretty good about closing the doors right away when the light goes on.
WRONG! Van Courtlandt Park is the LIMITING factor on the Broadway Lion!
Building a new durning loop north of 137th street, under the 137th Street Yard, will increase the capacity of the Broadway Lion, but ditzing at South Ferry Will not.
Elias
Ron is imaginary HIMSELF.
I ride this line regularly - walking through the train past the C/R USED to be done, but it most certainly is not anymore.
Crew changes on the 1 don't take place anywhere in Manhattan. The 1 doesn't terminate twice -- if anything, it could be said that it doesn't terminate at all until it returns to the Bronx.
Crew changes do not take place at Chambers St, the same way that crew changes do not take place on the 6 at Brooklyn Bridge.
A normal 1/9 line crew schedule would be 3 round trippers, with the crew taking it all the way to South Ferry and back before they can catch a break, or go on lunch before the next interval.
1. Continued use of Gap Fillers which mean if they break, they're are problems and they cost to maintain.
And switches and signals don't? You're replacing one set of mechanical things with another.
2. The curve will be still be a limiting factor
Trains go around curves all the time
3. Since it's only 1 track bottlenecking will still occur during the rush hours, slowing down 1 line service.
If a two track is done, then the line will be able to keep their TPH higher. South Ferry Loop is the limitng factor of the entire 1 line. Replacing it with a two track terminal that can turn 26-28 TPH and a proper crew quarters will increase the capacity of the 1 line.
The 1 line operates on a single track for its entire run, except at 242 St, which is where the real slow down occurs. there are only two terminals that turn more trains/hr than SF - Times Sq on the 7 and B'klyn Bridge on the 6. Funny, isn't it, how two of the top three terminals are LOOPS?
5. A new tower can be built protecting Chambers Street interlocking, and the line south of Chambers, putting everything in 1 area, saving on costs even more.
Fixing yet another problem that doesn't exist? Chambers, Rector and South Ferry interlockings are ALREADY controlled by the same tower.
What happens if a train breaks down at South Ferry Loop?
Everything terminates at Rector St.
Remember before 9/11 there was no X crossover at Rector, so if a train broke down at South Ferry, there could be no service south of Chambers stopping the entire flow of the 7th Avenue line as 1 trains would have to turn at Chambers.
Stop living in the past. The double crossover is there now. Prior to 9/11, there was a single switch, so they still could have turned trains at Rector - it just would have slowed things down.
With a two track terminal, if a train breaks down while in the station, the line doesn't stop. Flow can be maintained.
Flow can be maintained - but certainly not at the normal level. Since the same thing holds true now, no change there.
The Upper Level where the current 1 line is, can be made into the 5 Line Crew Changing area, where it doesn't have to change crew at Bowling Green preventing bottlenecking from occuring on the 4,5 lines.
Could somebody please search through the archives and see how many times people have been told that there is no crew change at South Ferry or Chambers on the 1, Bowling Green on the 5 or B'klyn Bridge on the 6. Since there are no crew changes at these locations, any bottlenecking is coming from somewhere else.
Could somebody please search through the archives and see how many times people have been told that there is no crew change at South Ferry or Chambers on the 1, Bowling Green on the 5 or B'klyn Bridge on the 6. Since there are no crew changes at these locations, any bottlenecking is coming from somewhere else.
I said it could be MADE in to a crew changing quarters. It would be more efficent, trains could dump and wait for dispatching. Lord knows how many times 4 trains are delayed south of bowling green. If Times Square can turn trains around effectively, then a two Track South Ferry Terminal could as well. Also remember we're trying to get people to the Ferry here, whats the use of a Crossover at Rector when they would have to walk the remainder of the way? We're trying to help people, and that certainly doesn't help. It just gets trains out of the way. Also the difference is with the 6, is that remember BB-City Hall is a 10 car station and two, it acts as a different type of loop station. The station is not on the loop, it can dump on 1 platform, loop, and then wait on the other platform. If South Ferry could be built that way, where the station is not on the loop and it can enter the station in a different if a train breaks down like if a train breaks down in the city hall loop, 6 trains could be sent down to South Ferry Inner loop, but it can STILL stop at it's station. The current south ferry is inadequet for that fact. You're stopping at Rector, inconvincing passengers. With the 6 you have a backup, 1 and 9, you don't. Brooklyn Bridge City hall style loop terminal system is how South Ferry should've been done. It acts as a two platform station without switches.
The 1 line has 37 stations, and 36 of them are not South Ferry. South Ferry is far from the busiest station on the line. (Peak loads are somewhere around 72nd Street.) Making South Ferry look pretty while reducing service to the other 36 stations is not an improvement.
They aren't going to send 1 trains through the old loop due to fumigation, because most people on the train at that point want to go to South Ferry. (Rector is a little-used station.)
Making South Ferry look pretty while reducing service to the other 36 stations is not an improvement.
While I have my concerns about the proposal, it will not reduce service to the other 36 stations.
Source? Or am I supposed to take the 24 tph claim at face value? The DEA doesn't even make a claim of capacity let alone attempt to support it.
As you know, I think there is a too little information in the DEA--that was the premise of this whole thread.
However, from the information provided, the new terminal appears to have a configuration no worse than that of 242/VCP, and possibly better (depending on the length of the overrun tracks, which is not stated in the document).
The comparative lack of detail is a legitimate complaint, but nothing in the doucment suggests that they're reducing the capacity of the line.
And depending on the switch location. Jamaica Center, which has tail tracks(!), handles only 12 tph.
Even if the new south terminal has the same capacity as the north terminal, that may not be sufficient to accomodate future growth. As I've said repeatedly, trains are currently crush loaded at 20 tph, so future services beyond 24 tph are hardly out of the question. There are at least two alternate north terminals; as a practical matter, there are no alternate south terminals.
The comparative lack of detail is a legitimate complaint, but nothing in the doucment suggests that they're reducing the capacity of the line.
Nothing in the document suggests one way or the other. Considering how unconvincing many of the arguments that are presented are, I'm not willing to accept an argument that isn't presented at all. (Remember, it's up to the project sponsor to present supporting arguments.)
I have reason to be concerned. I rely on the 1 train on a daily basis. If this terminal gets pushed through without the proper analysis, and -- whoops! -- it turns out that it only supports 12 tph, then I effectively have no subway service anymore -- I won't be able to fit on the train. That's why I'm not willing to accept any capacity claims without support. Find me a convincing argument and I'll be happy.
The document discusses at length the issue of pedestrian circulation (and appears to reach the ironic conclusion, without stating it explicitly, that the "no build" condition wins). Why does it not even raise the issue of train circulation? We already know that there are going to be eight turnstiles at the south mezzanine, but we don't know the location of the crossover? I don't buy it for a minute.
Intent doesn't impact capacity. If Jamaica Center performs poorly because it wasn't planned to be a terminal, then another terminal designed similarly will also perform poorly, even if it was planned to be a terminal from the start.
Where does it say that?
We already know that there are going to be eight turnstiles at the south mezzanine, but we don't know the location of the crossover? I don't buy it for a minute.
I agree--they know by now exactly where they're putting the switch.
Thank you for pursuing this - it's someting that should generate questions to be put to MTA.
I have criticized the DEA for over-stating (or failing to substantiate) a 4-6 minute time savings for passengers who board at South Ferry.
However, there will be a very real savings for M and R riders who are headed to lower 7th avenue destinations--a savings the DEA fails to note.
Overall, my guess is that this document was slapped together rather quickly, which accounts for its rather low quality.
Anything north of Chambers, the rider should have changed at Pacific/Atlantic for the 2/3
But as I have reported on other occasions, 8th Ave on the L is in fact designed in such a way that for only 150 seconds out of every train arrival interval (approx 4 mins) is anything happening. For the other 90 seconds, a train could enter or leave, but doesn't because the schedule doesn't call for it yet.
Based on the measurements I took, it seems very likely that 8th Ave could perfectly well handle 24 tph if it had to.
This doesn't mean you have no reason to be concerned about SF. But it does suggest that NYCT isn't being deliberately misleading if they say they believe SF will be able to handle 24 tph.
I do wonder how a minor detail of this sort could have been omitted from the DEA.
I believe you're wrong about that. This is labeled Draft Environmental Assessment. They are obligated to produce a final one.
They are speaking of CUSTOMERS not trains
They are *guessing* that people will be able to save four minutes from the platform to the boat.
OH MY! How So?
Longer trains, longer platforms, and a SHORTER walk!
And how will we keep people from crowding into the first two cars and ingnoring the rest of the train?
Oh Wait! Wait!
My crystal ball is clearing now....
There There! I see a long moving walkway, no two of them, leading from the boat dock directly to the paltform...
No to the NORTH END of the platform.
The first moving walkway is the longest: it goes directly from the boat to the NORTH third of the platform.
The second moving walkway starts in the waiting room and goes to the middle third of the platform.
and then for those who as have the time and like walking a little bit, they can walk right down to the southern third of the platform.
HMmmm.... Seems the moving walkways only move in the rush direction.
nicely decorated... there is a fountain with running water...
no wait, that's just another homless person, oh well, some things never change.
: ) Elias
Having read part of the DEA (essentially, Chapters 1, 2, 3, and 5-9), I've reached a similar conclusion. Unfortunately, the voodoo arithmetic you spotted seems to be accompanied by a generous helping of voodoo logic.
For instance, look at section 1.4.1, discussing recovery time. The DEA argues that the current maximum peak hour recovery time of 1½ minutes (one minute at Chambers southbound and 30 seconds at Chambers northbound) is inadequte. Perhaps so. But would the proposed terminal allow for longer recovery times? The DEA doesn't address this question quantitatively, so we'll have to do it right here. According to this page (astonishingly, the DEA doesn't comment on capacity at all), the capacity of the proposed terminal is 24 tph, or a headway of 2½ minutes. (As you know, I'm skeptical of this claim, but I'll accept it for the sake of argument.) The 1/9 currently runs at a peak headway of 3 minutes (20 tph). In other words, the proposed terminal limits rush hour recovery time to 30 seconds! How is that an improvement over the 90-second recovery time currently in place?
In section 1.5.3, the DEA suggests that placing a BO train on one of the two tracks is preferable to sending the train all the way up to 240th Street Yard. Is it not obvious that if a two-track terminal can handle 24 tph, removing one of those tracks from availability limits the capacity to about 12 tph? Storing a BO train in one of the pockets would be far more damaging to service than running it up to the Bronx. Furthermore, why does it have to run up to the Bronx at all? The obvious place to dump such a train is the spur track south of Times Square. If that's not possible, there are still other places to store a train south of the Bronx: the middle track north of 96th, the underground yard north of 137th, the middle track north of Dyckman, and 207th Street Yard. If necessary, with a reverse move the train could even be stored on the South Ferry inner loop (which is largely unused during rush hours; the few trains that do use it would have to be diverted to the City Hall loop, to the outer loop, or to one of the Brooklyn terminals).
Moving on to section 1.5.4, the document decries the current single entry stairway. Perhaps the authors have short memories, but until 2001, there were two staircases to the platform. When the station reopened in 2002, those two staircases had been closed and a third, new one had replaced them. Even assuming they can't be reopened and no other staircases can be added anywhere else, is the single staircase problematic? This question is discussed at length in section 5.9. Let's jump ahead to the punchline: compare tables 5-11 and 5-13 -- 2025 pedestrian analyses for the "no build" condition and for the proposed replacement. Not only will the current staircase arrangement not be problematic in 2025, it appears that the proposed staircase arrangement will flood the turnstiles, creating an LOS D condition in the morning rush! (This shouldn't be surprising. The most popular destination as well as the transfer will be at the south exit. Regular ferry riders, who make up the bulk of the rush hour crowd, will continue to ride in the front of the train and will use the south exit. The existence of two additional exits isn't very helpful if not many are willing to use them.)
If these are the best arguments that can be found for the proposed terminal, it's clear that the proposed terminal is a big mistake.
Hunter College-125 Street:Major Track Work(4,5,6)
De Kalb Avenue: Bomb Scare
Times Square:Terrorist Attack
Penn Station: President Visiting
Broad Channel-Rockaways: Small Power Outage
Manhattan Bridge and Williamsburg Bridge: More Track Work
Queens Plaza (not Queensboro Plaza): Police Investigation Due To Murder There
Grand Central: Major (S) Accident
Are some of the listed entries allowed to have trains run through without stopping or by wrongrailing, or is the trackage entirely closed to access in all cases?
NIMBY
NIMBY
NIMBY
NIMBYs will fight to the last man against a project like that.
now that the area is developed and the existing buildings are deteriorating property owners may not want to put money into property along the el. years back as you can see the way there were businesses on the street level and either those families or renters lived above the stores. that was a way of life. The smart thing they can do is invest in their properties along the el if they are zoned for business or sell. commerical property holds pretty high value and the els still bring people. the steets crossing these avenues can still be continuously used as they always were for residence.
but what would the residense of Mc Donald av do if the IND was not there. take Busses. not good. Even in Chicago I seem to recall that they are re doing their els with concrete systems which are alot more quiter than the existing els. correct me if I am wrong please but I thought I read about the Gun Hill rd station on the White Plains line was to be renovated or even replaced being that there is no longer a 3rd av el. Is it true that the line is to be lowered and replaced with a concrete system in this station area? This is what I am refering to. you have a right away for instance at the High Line use it with a more quiter system above ground and still save tax dollars and reach the downtown hub with commuter rail or even the # 7 line. tunneling is very costly. they have been talking about building 2 ND ave subway for over 50 years and alot of dependable lines were already removed and reducing good dependable servce to the tax payers of New York.
Elevated lines can still work, dress them up make them quiet and you will have a way to make it work
john
w bwy
-Chris
Since the 2nd and 3rd av el's were removed in the 1950's they still have not even produced a portion of a operational SAS. now we all know the MTA has taken in millions over the years but yet can not produce new lines to move the people. I am sure they made good money selling the steel from the el's to Japan. think about it you can always find something wrong with something but if it works for the most past don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
the MTA knows how to remove means of transportation but not replace it. too many mouth peices in the peanut gallery. They should what is good for all and not the few. marjority rules.
john
The Upper East Side is a prime example. Another example is the areas of Woodhaven, Glendale, Richmond Hill and Ozone Park. They have some of the most deplorable surface transportation in the city, yet they have been trying to get the Jamaica Ave El torn down, as well as successfully stopping the LIRR's Rockaway Beach trackage from being utilized because they are afraid of "bad elements", noise and lack of sunlight will intrude on their neighborhood.
The same crap is going on in the Atlanta region, and MARTA is not even proposing building els-but modern high tech subway lines, quiet and pleasing to the eye.
Yet, these are the first people to complain about lack of decent transportation or being stuck in traffic for hours on end.
What I find interesting about the "Mc Donald Ave El" is that it's surrounding buildings developed much differently than the majority of other els in the city. The areas around McDOnald Ace are for the most part very nice, well kept neighborhoods, but the buildings actually along McSonald ave are very non-descript, "junky" so to speak buildings, many only about one floor high, and sort of "industrial" as opposed to residential (or even mixed use with stores on the bottom, and apartments on top). Most of the other els have "normal" buildings along the el, even if the neighborhood became run down over time. For example, along Broadway in Brooklyn, and along some of the Bronx els, there are architectually beautiful buildings along the el, even if the neighborhood went to hell, the buildings themselves are (or were) attractive.
Maybe part of the reason for Mc Donald Ave developing so "crappily" even though is a VERY nice neighborhood even today, is perhaps because originally Mc Donald Ave was a "railroad ROW" for the SBK, so more "industrial" buildings were built along the Ave - Just a theory.
I don't know if what I am saying is coming across clear, so let me try some photos.
Here's a photo at Ave X along the McDonald El. Notice how "crappy" the buildings are. (By "crappy", I don't mean run-down, I mean "non-descript and architechtually junky.) This scene of crappy buildings is typical along the Culver El:
Now look at some of the other els, and look at the "quality" of the buildings, even if over time they became neglected and "run-down", the "quality" of the buildings when first built were not "crappy". What I am trying to say is that the Culver El's neighboring buildings were crappy from the beginning, even if they were maintained and "well-kept". Most of the other els had/have "quality" buildings, even if they are falling apart now in some areas.
Broadway El (yeah they are run down but they were built as attractive "real" buildings")
West End:
White Plains Line:
Even the els that go through lesser density neighborhoods have attractive buildings along the el. The Culver seems to be the exception in my opinion. You are looking down at the roofs of mostly one story industrial buildings as opposed to residential or commercial (stores) buildings.
However, consider this: Airtrain-JFK basically is an EL !!!!
With some modern design and building matrials, perhaps as small 2-track el can work somwhere.
Kindly keep in mind that the els were built to replace HORSES, not automobiles.
john
Right down the middle of 34th Street!
Well, except that I disguise it as a shopping mall and prominade.
It runs from a Park and Ride in Queens across an elegent built-for the purpose bridge, and all the way to Javitts Center. I have drawn it as going to New Jersey as well, perhaphs to a park and ride near the Meadowlands somewhere... but that part would have to be underground and therefore expensive to build, but probably worth it.
The LRT cars perhaps two or three units long and probably fully automated, will run free of fare collection. For passengers boarding at a park and ride, the round trip fare is included in their parking fee. For pedestrians boarding in Queens or New Jersey a fee equal to a round trip subway fare ($4.00) is collected. Boarding anywhere in Manhattan is free.
The big deal is:
1) It does not interfere with ground traffic.
2) It runs on a dedicated trackway.
3) It is integrated with shops and malls that are a part of the adjacent property owners, who collect the rent, and construct access to their buildings.
4) It has an open air deck on top which is an Island Wide pedestrian prominade. (With appropriate food concessions)
Yeah, the street kinda disapears under this thing. but that can make the thing all that more attractive to developers.
Elias
Your plan for a new El over 34th St. in midtown Manhattan might actually happen if the eastern end terminated at LaGuardia airport and the western end at Penn Station (or at least passed by the station at 33rd St.). The reason is the Port Authority can use taxes on airline tickets to pay for the connection (as they did for the JFK airtrain) and suited executives might be willing to tolerate a modern Airtrain-like El if it got them to the airport without having to ride a subway and bus. Gov. Pataki might go for it to. What do you subtalkers think?
one day the silent majority will wake up like the sleeping giant and throw all of these money grubbing polititions the heck out and get a pro transit group in office to start supplying mass transit to NYC.
again my friends just my opinion
John
Most of the recent news reports have concerned the shock people have experienced, given the way the tunnel has been sold, not that they have found out that goods would still reach their final destination by truck.
A site for the huge truck terminal has been identified, and people in Queens Southwest Queens have been informed that if the tunnel is built that goods arriving by rail will be transferred to trucks in their neighborhood, rather than in New Jersey. So city streets will get about the same amount of truck traffic, and their streets would get vastly more. The savings in truck traffic is on the bridges and highways only.
It probably would come out of the same few billion as the SAS and East Side Access. Mr. Nadler things mass transit only helps the evil, yuppie information- and culture-based industries in Manhattan and nearby centers, whereas the rail tunnel will bring back manufacturing jobs for the virtuous unionized working class. The fact that the New Jersey side of the river, which already has both the rail connections and the port, has lost as large a share of manufacturing as NYC seems irrelevant to him. He is living a dream of the past, a past that few who were actually there would prefer to the present.
You're being humorous above but are probably really onto to Nadler's way of thinking.
Nadler is but one of our city's democratic politicians that fantasize about the 'rebirth' of manufacturing. Manufacturing left NYC years ago for reasons too numerous to go into here, and it ain't coming back, also for reasons too numerous to go into here.
The Brooklyn docks may have a very slim chance at regaining some shipping business because the new freighters require very deep ports. I say very slim chance because what shipping company is going to put up with all the crap involved in building anything that large here. In the long-gone days when this port was thriving, how did the goods get from the Brooklyn docks to the rest of the country with no direct rail link? Was it all loaded up on trucks and driven through Manhattan to the NY-NJ tunnels or the GW Bridge?
This tunnel is eons way from being built, but my company (and it's competitiors) are looking into getting the rights to run fiber optic cable through it. We all pay a franchise fee for that, but it's not enough money to offset anything.
Brooklyn's docks are handling a decent amount of business. While there is some regular container shipping in Red Hook, Brooklyn's speciality seems to be in such cargoes as coffee and cocoa.
Lighterage: unload break-bulk onto smaller barges and tug 'em across the harbor to the railheads on the NJ side, or Albany or Buffalo or wherever. The barge system had been in place since the beginnings of the port and was only disrupted by the new economics of containerization and Interstates after the Second World War--a pretty good run.
There has been repeated talk of reviving this service, but it has been blocked by union rules (which make it too expensive to run) and business disputes. This would be faster and cheaper than a direct connection, but would also prove it's worth.
Can anyone provide an update on what is going on with this?
An article this week in the Brooklyn Papers about the American Stevedoring lease negotiations at the Red Hook piers (and the potential cruise ship terminal) mentioned that Jerry Nadler was trying to subsidize a new float bridge as well, in his attempts to broker a compromise between Stevedoring and the PA. The article was actually more optimistic that Stevedoring would get the lease than anything else I've read on the subject in the past months; there have been a lot of suggestions that the powers that be would prefer other uses for the Red Hook waterfront for developers to cash in on.
Which is still a very important savings.
There is no rail connection to all of New England south of Albany.
Much of that train traffic will come across the harbor and right out again over the Hell Gate Bridge. Traffic for Long Island can go by train to points much further out before transfer to a truck.
Still, I like my plan much better: it provides NEW LIRR service, and NEW NJT service to WTC, as well as airport service from WTC to both LGA and Newark.... AND it will handle MORE freight traffic than a NJ-Brooklyn Tunnel can (Because it has better rail access at both ends, AND it will cross the rivers at deeper channels, so less interference with shipping.
You can make a tunnel that will only move a few freight trains, or you can make a new major crossing system for only a pittance more.
: ) Elias
Scurvy is a terrible condition that results from a lack of vitimin C. It can result in severe damage to your gums and other soft membranes that can then lead to loss of teeth and fingnails. For those of you who think that scurvy is a thing of the past, there have been recent cases of Harvard law students getting scurvy due to subsisting for days and days on library vendingmachine food.
Scurvy can be easily prevented by the ingestion of Vitimin C bearing foods. Many fruits and vegetables contain vitimin C and should be consumed often to aboid the onset of Scurvy. These include Onions, Limes, Lemons and Oranges. You don't need much Vitimin C to ward off Scurvy so a lemon a day will keep the pirate away, ha ha ha.
So remember, next time you're out riding the entire NYC subway system in a single Ultimate Ride or rading Amtrak to Alliance OH and back, please, for the love of God, eat some citrus fruit...it's important and you're loved one's will thank you when you can eat food that hasn't been pre-mushified.
For more information on Scurvy Awareness Day check out http://www.monzy.com/scurvy/
Your citric pal,
Fred
(PS Before anyone mentions my spelling 'mistake' - 'offence' is spelt that way in the UK.)
Scurvy is no laughing matter as it once was a fatal condition.
And IIRC it's "me hearties".
British sailors were known as limeys centuries ago because the Royal Navy figured out that putting limes on the ship would prevent scurvy...
I would recommend everyone to buy some OJ, since the businesses are suffering losses due to the low-carb craze.
I'll drink Florida OJ any day, out here in California.
Actually Kiwifruit, Guava and of all things, ROSEHIP has the most vitamin C, oranges by comparison to many others aren't all that plentiful in vitamin c ... source:
http://www.naturalhub.com/natural_food_guide_fruit_vitamin_c.htm
Be happy to shill for Florida when they learn how to vote. :)
Full enfranchisement. That’s such a northern thing.
PS: I have had more rose hip syrup than I care to think about. I’ll take my Flintstones thank you.
PPS: Don’t get me going on cod liver oil!!!!
Big difference HERE though is that we voters were SO pythed off at "politics as usual" that the Working Families Party swept 22 of 36 seats, tossing both replutocrats and democans aside in a MAJOR upheaval of the county. To say, "Im loving this" is an understatement. 2000 wasn't an "upset," it was a coup d'etat. But I'm heartened by some things I've found out from folks who have been answering the pollsters. They're AFRAID (Patriot act many say) to tell a pollster the TRUTH ... so folks are answering "Bush" when asked, but privately telling the pollsters that they're not being truthful in answer to other information. Like I said, should be interesting. And in case anyone wants to know WHICH polls are taken by students locally for national office, those polls would be Zogby, Marist, Gallup, Harris, Roper and Pew Research. They all use local students to do their phone surveys. :)
thanks
mike
If you hear of anything, post it here or email me cityguy_10025@yahoo.com
Greg
BCSC has acquired a complete 1944 Boston air-electric PCC from a gracious donor, and have a working agreement for seven ex-SEPTA PCC's. BCSC is also looking for trolleys of older vintages, even approaching owners in Europe and South America for suitable old-timer trams.
As you can see, the need for suitable work space to get moving would be a good thing to have.
I'd know I'd like to see operating Milan Peter Witts in B&QT red/cream/salmon or TARS red/cream myself!
The proposal I've seen is in several parts: one is a line that would operate the length of the Brooklyn Bridge Park, a mile and half long stretch from Atlantic Ave. and Furman St. to DUMBO. The second part is a line to connect the Borough Hall area to DUMBO (you can walk it, but its a darn long walk). The third is to support a museum which is part of the Park plan. They've been working together with the Park's planners, architects, politicians, community supporters, and various other folks with a vested interest in making the Park a success.
A website is coming real soon, but you can try this email for more info:
bcsc718@msn.com .
Earlier this year, some of the data from this study was published. Levels of iron, manganese and chromium on subway platforms were up to 100 times the levels in student's homes or schools. Levels of these metals inside air-conditioned cars were also elevated, but not as great as on the platforms. The researchers reassure riders that the elevated levels of metal were still 1000 times lower than levels considered to be dangerous.
Discussion of Data
The head of the project will be discussing his study in a free public lecture on Sunday, May 23rd at 3 PM at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in New Jersey.
May 23rd Lecture
Travel Directions
Smells like... victory.
I tried spending them at Hudson News in Penn Station. The cashier looked at the Susie Bs and said, "I don't know what these are" and handed them back to me. So, no magazine for me. Other stores just look at me funny when I try to pay with gold coins or just assume the Susie Bs are quarters.
They don't exactly fit in my wallet nicely, and leave this great big bulge protruding from the side. They weigh down my pants pocket, and it just looks funny. I could always throw them into the vortex of my pocketbook, but they'll never be seen again.
The only place I can really use the coins, no questions asked, is in the soda machine downstairs, but I don't drink that much soda. I suppose the logical thing to do is to pay for my tickets with them, but who wants to carry $20 worth of the coins around?
So, right now, they're in a cup in my desk drawer. Their only salvation is if I need a caffiene fix.
What do you do with yours?
I don't have problems using them at other places though. I usually buy my morning bagel with them. Sometimes I use them to leave small tips at cheap eateries. Only once has someone mistaken the Susie Bs as quarters, and when I pointed out they were dollars they apologized and happily accepted them.
Once I came back from Atlantic City with a few rolls of half-dollars. Now those attracted attention when I used them.
Not to mention that places of business where the cashiers and management have greater than the "new mean intelligence" will certainly accept the valid currency of SBA and Sacagawea dollar coins. There are indeed newsagents that can tell the difference between valid currency and amusement-arcade tokens that read "NO CASH VALUE" . . .
You could use those coins the next time you need to get a metrocard.
As far as people not knowing what a dollar coin is, gimmeabreak. The susie b has been around for 25 years, or one QUARTER of a CENTURY. The new Sacageua(sp) has been so publicized, that you need to be on Leno during the Jaywalkers segment if you're that clueless. I know we're going to a cashless society(which I now go against), but if you have no clue what american money looks like, you're from mars.
And I'm still waiting on the new Florida quarter!! We have an online vote, and the one I picked won! Has anyone gotten this one yet?
As for my self I like the $1 coins, and use them when ever I get them. If the person dose not like them, then tought shit on them. One down down the road the mints are going to stop making paper $1 bill and only make coins and the people of America will have to ajust just like in other contreys that have already done it to there smaller bill's.
Robert
The mint never made dollar bills. The mint only makes coin money. That is what a mint is: a place that makes coin money.
Dollar Bills come from the Treasury Printing Office.
And yes, they *are* going to stop printing One Dollar Bills one day.
Dollar coins last much longer. So be it !
Bill "Newkirk"
-Robert King
While there once was a CN$5.00 coin, that was a long, long time ago. The "loonie" IS the $1 coin, and the "toonie" is the $2 coin. There is no $5 coin currently. And while some may have wished to see Mulroney on a $3 coin, alas, they put Clinton on it instead. (grin)
-Robert King
: )
Mark
Alberta
British Columbia
Manitoba
New Brunswick
Newfoundland and Labrador
Northwest Territories
Nova Scotia
Nunavut (Iqaluit)
Ontario
Prince Edward Island
Quebec
Saskatchewan
Yukon
Add upstate New York for 14. :)
Mark
Sorry 'bout that, folks.
Mark
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ca.html
How about this: :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nothing like holding a camcorder in my left hand and crossing myself with my right hand while taping the final blessing at Mass.:)
It was nice having all three uncles (we're all bachelors, incidentally) together again. I don't see them all that often, let alone my sister's family.
But I'm GONNA let you wrack the old meatrom over the remaining method of preventing the doors from opening - perhaps someone else here might figure it out as well if the door switch isn't it and the drum switch isn't it, there's STILL one way to prevent the triggers from opening the doors ...
(Final Jeopardy theme up and under)
The thing I remember most is you reviewing out loud every step to take to rouse 1689 from its peaceful slumber.
I'm a WEE bit disappointed that your meatrom is out of calibration. So let's go back (for the enjoyment of others as well) ... when I checked my reservoir cock, then climbed up and showed you HOW to "board an arnine yard style", you may recall that the FIRST thing I did on the car after getting in the storm door, opening the cab and giving it a visual, and then observing the condition of the layup brake ratchet to see if it needed to be kicked was to go STRAIGHT to the bottle caps, and do WHAT?
SLAP 'EM ... safety procedure ... back in teh day, the FIRST thing you did when you "mounted" was go to the operating position (since I had no idea of what was cut in and what easn't, did it on both ends - first when climbing, reached out and slapped, and when I worked my way to the other end of the car, reached out and slapped again. It was known as the "four quadrant cap slap" ...
*IF* you assumed the conductor position, you HAD to do that in order to ensure that all door controls were properly reset and that a wrong side open could NOT occur owing to a trigger caught "in the middle" ... this is why I can't BELIEVE they need "door enablers" now when it was CLEARLY "conductor duty" to do the four quadrant BEFORE going into service. And you did platform OFFSIDE FIRST! (just to let you know *WHY* I did that before "motorman issues") ...
OK ... so on to the "Final Jeopardy" answer. IF you recall, I went and opened up a longitudinal SEAT ... WHAT did I show you when I did that? THAT was the answer I was thinking of. "DCO" ... door cutout lever and switch. HAD that been thrown, then the doors associated with that air controller would NOT have opened. Each "leaf pair" has that arrangement. That's why arnines with cutout doors would not open. Now, you say "duh" ... heh.
But WAIT, there's MORE. What would you NOW expect to pay. But don't answer YET, there's valve cutouts inside the panels! :)
But even ALL THAT wasn't the reason why the doors would not open. REMEMBER when I started charging, and I was showing you the air gauge and the "stuck door?" You MISSED a piece there ... heh. At 30 pounds, the doors will NOT open. We needed about 50 for the "sluggish door" (one of the other thing we did when "walking out trains" ... we'd kick the doors and with LOW PRESSURE, we'd get to SEE which ones would misbehave on us later (that's why I did that and showed you the ritual) and "exercise" them BEFORE it rolled in revenue.
But the OTHER trick is simply to DUMP the train. No reservoir, no DOORS. Heh. So ... adding up your tally, you had THREE chances to win with that question - in addition to the drum switch, the breaker switch, and ZONING, I can stop you with DCO lever ("door cutout"), opening the panel and throwing the valve block, AND just DUMPING the witch ... no air, no doors. Moo. :)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Robert
And i am just being nit-picky...
: )
Elias
Robert
That statement is false.
It *is* legal tender, and it may be *accepted* for all debts, both public and private. But a vendor may choose to refuse any form of tender they wish. Many place will not accept pennies, or rolls of coins or whatever.
It's their loss, but it is also their right.
As for me, I love the things.
Elias
Robert
The laws usually have some limits of reasonableness: you can’t pay your rent with a billion pennies for example. So you can use pennies up to 26 cents (as was posted earlier), nickels up to another amount, etc, with presumably $100 bills being valid for just about any transaction.
http://www.treas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.html#q1
Question: I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?
Answer: The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 102. This is now found in section 392 of Title 31 of the United States Code. The law says that: "All coins and currencies of the United States, regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal-tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties and dues."
This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I support paper dollars as it is a strong statement as to the intrinsic value of a dollar. It also forces people to think before they feed their $ into a machine.
The dollar bill has no intrinsic value. That stopped when dollars stopped being made of silver. A dollar bill is just a piece of paper.
It's ironic: when paper money first came in, people didn't like it because it wasn't proper money, with intrinsic value. Now Jersey Mike doesn't want to lose dollar bills because he thinks the the dollar coins aren't proper money!
I wasn't particularly happy hwen pound coins replaced pound notes in 1982. But I got over it. Mike will survive the replacement of dollar bills with coins when it happens, which it will, one day.
I, for one, was very pleased when Britain decided put its coinage on a diet a few years ago. Now if only they could do the same to the £1 and £2 coins. Perhaps a reintroduction of the dodecagon? (I always liked the old threepenny bits, portcullis and all!)
I hate those new 5p pieces - they're so easy to lose. If any coin needed a "diet" it would have been the 2p. Better still abolish 1p and 2ps, then count everything in Shillings...
Ulster Bank purple fivers are also fun.
Like i said before, a coin is great for one dollar items. I'd much rather get on a bus with a dollar coin and two quarters than a bill and 2 quarters, and have that ready in my hand(yes ready, not sifting through my pocket AFTER i get on the bus!).
Or a bottle of water.
But being from the service industry, there are places where bills are better. I love my ones.
It will suck for cashiers having another slot for dollar coins now, and having to stock those up with 100 of them a shift.
It will suck being a server or bartender and dealing with itty bitty heavy coins. You going to keep 80-90 of those things in you're pockets or bags everynight? I love the bills when they pile up.
It's got it's uses, and sometimes it doesn't. I'm 50/50 and rather see both.If you only have half the bills circulating and the rest is coins, you're still doing the savings and it's still asting longer. This ain't all or nothing.
Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hence why it's my former bank.
Now I've got a cell phone, so getting quarters for a pay phone is no longer an issue.
As to the banks, yup!!
As to dollar coins vs. bills, that's Treaury, wimping out. When the Saccy was going to be introduced, Treasury announced that the dollar bill was not going to be printed any more. Bills would remain in circulation until worn out.
When the coin was introduced, Treasury then decided to continue printing and issuing dollar bills. The coin never had a chance, even though the coin is a better thing. Coins have a lifespan of about 70 years, on average. A dollar bill wears out in about 18 months.
People are comfortable with what they have and resist change. Since bills are still freely available and that's what people are used to, that's what banks and businesses use.
The MTA in Baltimore issues dollar coins as change for subway fare tickets and light rail tickets. If you stick a Five in a LR ticket machine for a day pass ($3.60) you will recieve a pass ticket, forty cents in small change and a dollar coin.
Outside of the subway and Light Rail, bills reign supreme. Bus fareboxes take anything and purchase of Day Passes gets everything from a bunch of quarters and nickels to a five dollar bill inserted. No change is issued, so the MTA gets a little bit more than the actual fare. Base fare is $1.60, and lots of riders who don't use weekly or montly passes stuff 4 singles in the farebox for a Day Pass and "eat" the 40 cents.
Our soda maching at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum takes dollar coins, dollar bills, coins from a nickel up. Soda costs 75 cents. We get lots of dollar bills, a lot of quarters and no dollar coins. They are not in general circulation.
Sure you have... I've fed at least one to it!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He finally put a dollar bill in the Store register and took it himself.
We've never taken in one at the Admission Window, ever. Singles, Fives, Tens, LOTS of Twenties (curse of the ATM) even, once in a while, a Fifty or a "C" Note.
As I noted, they (Sacies) are not in general circulation. When the Susie B (referred to in some circles as the Lizzie Borden dollar due to the wonderfully bad portrate used for the plate) we made sure they didn't work in our Johnson model D fareboxes, since they were often confused with the quarter.
I agree that they are legal tender, but as Amanda pointed out, you can have difficulty spending them, and you only ever get them in change from machines. When did a human give you a Susie B or a Sacagawea?
There are other outlets where the dollar coins can be used besides transit or parking. Ever find a soda machine on a hot day and you want to buy a soda but the singles you use are spat out by the machine because they are too crinkly ?
Dollar coins are much faster, I keep a few in the mini pocket in my jeans. Hell, a couple on months ago, I purchased a $4 Metrocard from an MVM and just picked out four dollar coins from my min pocket. Beats opening up you bill fold with who knows is standing behind you.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, the UTPT Mk 1 and UTPT Mk 2, that's what I said.
which are indeed legal tender.
Yes, I know that some people accept them out of the goodness of their heart, but that does not make them legal tender.
Some people accept you as a rational intelligent human being out of the goodness of their heart too, but that doesn't mean they're right, even if they are your parents :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Strictly speaking, this is not so.
I give them out as change in the Abbey Wine Cellar.
People are pleasd to have them too. I have only had one or two complaints in two years of passing out the things.
I find that they are really great. I can never keep enough one dollar bills in my till. Twenty Five of the and the drawer is stuffed. And when the business manager clears the till, he takes all but five. What change can I make for people with only five dollar bills!
So I buy the Sakakawea (correct North Dakota spelling~ look at the map!) dollars. I can easily fit 100 of them in the till, and the busisness manager never bothers them.
: ) Elias
Think of it as a substitute for a token. Do the buses accept dollar coins?
Even better: machines around NYC take Metrocards! I know that Metrocards aren’t perfect, but I think that they’re a not unreasonable stored value card for small transactions!
And, no you can’t use your unlimited ride Metrocard in a soda machine!
Personally, I don't like having to be forced to use dollar coins. When one goes to Canada or Europe, it becomes a little cumbersome to have a pocket full of change. But in Britain it's the worst. Each £1 coin weighs the equivalent of about 3 quarters. Put 10 of those in your pocket and you'll be wishing for paper money.
: )
He did... which explains things pretty well, don't you think? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Kind of like subway tokens before their demise.
Mark
Now think about removing a national icon, the dollar bill!
There is no need to round anything. Australia and New Zealand each have no coin smaller than 5c, but some prices are quoted with odd cents on them. If you pay by credit card, debit card or cheque, no problem, you pay the exact amount. If you pay in cash, the point-of-sale terminal rounds up or down as appropriate: 1c or 2c goes down, 3c or 4c goes up, 6c or 7c goes down, 8c or 9c goes up. There are as many downs as ups, so in the long run everyone is even. No-one objects to this.
In practice, in Oz and NZ it's only in supermarkets that any odd-cent transactions occur. No public transport fares have odd cents on them. And big items - electrical goods, say - get priced at $199.95 (or whatever), not $199.99.
In my view, the only reason why pennies survive in the USA is because of sales taxes. As these vary from city to city and/or state to state to state, they can't be incorporated into the base price, and have to be added at the till. This leads to odd cents on the price of a lot of transactions.
I'm sure a computer program can be devised to lower the base price up or down a few cents on each item so that when the sales tax is added, it comes out ending in a "5". The computers already must be programmed in each locality to calculate the sales tax for that locality only.
Of course it could.
Rounding is against the law in pretty much every state, though. The g=fear is that all rounding would be up.
I would love the penny to go away.
SNAXTAX ... many remember when it was introduced, it made the $1.00 street dog $1.06 ... but that's not the STUPID part. It was when the street vendors (I *strongly* encourage ANY republican to push the cart around out of the tax garage where they're stored undernight and YOU buy the "pumpitapumpita" kerosene from your G-O or Sabretts (or worse) distributor and see what YOU think of "ontapanoorship, Wal*Phart style" ... driving a TAXI is *bonus* compared to streetdoggie or chestnut roasters. :(
NYS Tax and Finance came RIGHT after the buggers when they dropped the price of a streetdog to 94 cents (the 6 cent/7 cent taxt split for under a dollar) and sold the dollar STREETDOG for "$1.00, 'tax included'" ... OH did them phuzzas get BURNED ... they sold the doggie for $1.00, turned in 97 cents (THREE cents a dog! I did it, so I know) and then the STATE turns around and sues the DOGGIE-GIVERS for "purloined 7 cents of sales tax" ... in other words, the poor schlump that slapped mustard and kraut on your weenie had to PAY a penny a blow to kiss your asp! And NO guilt on either side, state or distributors, YOU got the political high hard one today. :(
Stupid? People keep RE-ELECTING THESE bastards! :(
Hearing stories of "sitting ducks" because instead of the ARMY providing its own gas, convoys drop dead in the middle of the desert out of fuel, sit there for 16 hours waiting for HALLIBURTON (Dick Cheney STILL getting his CEO check) to NOT deliver fuel and getting blowed up because after 16 hours, EVERYBODY knows they're out there and decide to blow them up. :(
STUPID? Yeah, call it AMERICA ... spun by Faux News to Disney to CNN to Dan Rather. "Liberal press, my ASP!" :(
I can only wait until Britain joins EMU. (As usual late with everything…)
I like the Euro so much that I have previously proposed a NAMU. Basically I see no reason why there should be a separate American and Canadian Dollar. There should be one North American Dollar. Then we can make the NAD look more Canadian and less American (actually I have nothing against American bills except that it's all one color, although that's changing).
NYCT buses do.
Bill "Newkirk"
Remember, a dollar is the equivalent of a dime in 1940, the dime the equivalent of a penny back then, an penny now is a pain in the ass.
Actually, that would be 1945 (according to this calculator from the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis... but your basic point is valid regardless... the dollar bill's time is past, and the penny should probably also go away.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
: )
An excellent point. I like to think in terms of what is the most common useful coin - the one you seem to use most of - at any time. When I was growing up in England in the 1950s, it was the sixpence (six old pence, 6d, equivalent to 2.5p in the decimal version of our currency). More recently, in the 1980s, it was the 20p. Now it's pretty much the pound coin!
In the USA at the same periods, I'd guess it was the nickel in the 50s, the quarter more recently, and now it's the dollar bill! Last timne I was in the USA (six months ago) I was shocked how rarely I used a coin of any kind.
You should have told numbnuts that this is a dollar coin and is legal tender, just like the paper bill.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have used them for other transactions (i.e. lunch) and the cashier accepted it with no questions asked.
As far as the SBA dollars, I hate those suckers. They're too close to a quarter. I spend those ASAP.
My attitude: This is America, this is American currency, got a problem with America?
- Isaac
You're right, a lot of merchants won't take dollar coins. A lot of them won't even take PENNIES. The guy in the roach coach in front of my office gets all snippy if you try to pay for a fifty-cent cup of coffee with a quarter, two dimes and five pennies. Likewise many newsstands. The best course of action in a case like this is to take your business elsewhere.
A couple of years ago, there was a major advertising campaign for the Golden Dollar with ads all over the subway system. It showed a ridiculous matte photo of George Washington as a 'regular guy' wearing a contemporary business suit, or jeans and flannel shirt.
The copy stated you could use it to buy four 25-cent newspapers, two cups of coffee, etc. I'd like to know how long it took the copywriters to find merchants that would ACCEPT the Golden Dollar. I never did.
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Many of us browse SubTalk at work. I for instance click a post here and there while waiting for things to print, etc at work. It also helps me relax and take a needed break in between the normal stresses of the day.
It is never a good thing though when sound unexpectedly comes on when we click on something. I jump, my co-workers jump, and what I want the least, my boss can jump. Please warn if you are going to put sound in something that you link too.
(Nice photos though, by the way).
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
You can always mute the sound output from your computer. If it's a Windows machine, click the speaker icon in the taskbar, and check the "mute" box.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Click here for the story on NY1's site, then click on the video link - the 3 maps are shown towards the end. Or just put on NY1 now, they've been repeating this story for a while.
I'm grateful if we can get a piece of it done.
RTA, Metrolink...The only thing I know of that he's missing is Omnitrans!
The map in full detail.
The map legend.
An SAS station. Note the R143's.
LOL
Bob Sklar
1) HBLR system (I believe the ceremonies took place on 4/15/00)
2) Extension to Newport Center
3) Extension to 22nd St / Bayonne
Thanks in advance,
Bill "Newkirk"
April 2000- Exchange Place- West Side Ave/34th St
November 2000- Exchange Place- Newport
September 2002- Newport- Hoboken
November 15, 2003- 34th St- 22nd St
from urbanrail.net
Click on map to enlarge.
-Chris
Also, didn't you make a 7 line map? Or do I have you confused with someone else?
No, I have never made a 7 line map, but my next map will be the IRT system w/ the 7.
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
W Bwy
Nice map, though. Probably would have survived compression much better as a GIF or PNG, though.
Sorry, I just wanted people to see it.
As for GIF, i dont know, but Ill try it on the next one.
-Chris
Not to be a pecksniff, but you did spell 'legend' wrong.
Your pal,
Fred
-Chris
Another poster mentioned that using standard spelling for < legend > would be a good idea. I agree.
Sea Beach shown as going into Stillwell would be appropriate, too.
I'd like to see the Brooklyn line names used (Fourth Avenue, Sea Beach, Brighton)--too often, the other boroughs are ignored in favor of Manhattan.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
-Chris
My question is, what's the state of the tunnel walls and supports BETWEEN stations? These the public has no real access to, and we don't know how they're holding up. What kind of a job does the MTA do with the maintenance of these things? How often are the tunnels inspected and how? Is a cursory visual inspection all that the supports are given? And how often and in what manner are repairs affected?
The best rail pic I've ever taken (IMO) is right here.
Feel free to share yours!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
-Chris
The signal (D4 1257) and that irregular-looking double-crossover make it a dead giveaway.
(well, the only one worthy AND had in 6 megapixel :-)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I like that one, taken at Rayners Lane on the LU Metropolitan and Piccadilly Lines.
I also like this one, taken at Harrow-on-the-Hill. At that station, the LU and National Lines share the same tracks:
I'll post more of my favorite rail pictures later.
In case you have not seen it, my website is www.orenstransitpage.com.
I've seen it. For quite a while. I really like it.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the New York City Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provision of these Rules.
It is?
...ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used.
To my ears, since the MTA specifically says "ancillary equipment", and mentions relectors and tripods alongside lights, it sounds to me that they're talking about actually setting up lights around where you want to take a photo. That would be against the rules along with tripods and reflectors, because they're big, clunky equipment and would interfere with the free movement of passengers, which is specifically against the rules.
In other words, "take a quick picture if you must, but please don't set up an entire mini-studio".
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
For a time, they were training T/O's on the north side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge.
Better to simply tell your camera to use a fast shutter speed. Then you don't get the side effect and your battery lasts longer.
The best answer in my book is to take pictures above ground.
Mark
Chuck
Here's my favorite this year so far. Fortunately the good folks of Charlotte don't seem to be paranoid about terrorist photographers yet.
I like that one. I'm always surprised that it came out, I didn't have a tripod and just hand-steadied a crappy Olympus D390 to get the shot. I guess it's a good thing Elmwood Depot is well lit.
Chuck Greene
Although as far as subject matter goes...
Taken September 20, 2003 at the Illinois Railway Museum.
Frank Hicks
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Taken Nov 2003
Taken last month
One of my TOP 5. Taken March 2003
This Is What I Live For...
Enjoy.
My favorite that I took for this site would have to be this one:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?24347
Two of my other favorites, although they aren't that good, I've included because I love the system from which I took them.
http://www.railweb.homestead.com/brown_arm_2.jpg
I like this picture because this is my favorite station in the CTA system, and I managed to get the whole train, as well as part of the station and scenery, in as well.
http://www.railweb.homestead.com/blue_cl_2.jpg
I like this picture because it is the only one I took at a Chicago subway station which includes the train. You also get a good view of the station, although I know it isn't a good picture.
Matt
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Chuck :-)
What of camera you use and how many megapixels it has?
and of course...
Specifically
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=43047
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=43049
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=46973 (this one is being used on some corporate website, I was contacted and gave permission)
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=46099
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=41443
Are some of my very favourites.
Brill Bullet Car
E44 at Arsenal Tower
E44 in Conrail Blue
Ocean City, NJ
E60 with windshield grates
Black River & Western #60
World Series Redbirds
7 line
Smith/9th
MOD train
Brooklyn Bridge from subway train on Manhattan Bridge
Here is another nice one
Hope y'all like them. Enjoy.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
thanks in advance
Mike
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
i ended up getting sorrta a 70's style picture.
there's your exit!
R33ML#9245 with USA sticker and a glow effect too.
til next time
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
A redbird would add a lot more color to the picture...
There, I kept it politically correct,
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
You quite clearly misunderstood my comment, however this does not surprise me, every other reference I have toss out there has flown clear over your collective heads. Indeed, I had ignored your little newbie-group until you (or the other 4train, it's not like I give a damn) decided to off and call me a troll for playing devils advocate to their kangaroo trial of DefJef, that I actually paid attention to you. I have to admit, since I have begun paying attention to your group's posts I am terribly saddened by the prospects for the future of subtalk. You post little substanitive subway information, your entire exsistence here seems to be to glorify the R142 while simultaneously and quite illogically bad mouthing the perfectly decent R62 cars at every opertunity. You scream for Dave to remove the posts you deem offensive, and then at the same time fret about the boards getting closed down. Allow me to clue you in: the boards will not be closed down if nobody complains about meaningless slap-fights between posters. I don't want to drive you off, I merely want to be able to turn on the computer and not see one of you crying about "being flamed by so-and-so", thus my small campaign against your complete and utter inability to consistantly not only not get the joke, but to moan and cry about it when you miss the point and get offended.
The post I made to which you responded was just another attempt by me to see if your buddy had the sense to regard it for what it was, a joke. You quite obiviously missed my point, and as such predictably cried about it. You do realize that the word Sex can have non-reproductive connotations, right?
Ben said that he liked the R142 picture. In my humble opinion it was probably the blandest of the 3 photos there, which featured a great shot of an R62 and the R12 from a museum trip. I'm sure I'm not the only one who saw a mild amount of humor in his photo selection, I'm just the one who spoke my mind. And Ben said that he liked the R142 (isn't that an R142A?), a decidedly angular design. I merely made light of his selection by comparing the R142 to Darth Vader. A 'Sex Symbol" need not be strictly relating to Sex (which of course would be perverse and off topic), but merely contain features which you find attractive. In this case the angular features and somber colors of Darth Vader match up quite well with the similar looking R142 facade.
So as you can see now that I have completely explained my motivation to you, I am not some sick pervert. I am flaming you on purpose, roughly twice or three times a week, but mostly to see what your response is. So far I am disappointed, you need to straighten up and stop getting so damn emotional over this board.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
As well as using your killfile, let me tell you this:
Opinions make the world go 'round.
So as you can see now that I have completely explained my motivation to you, I am not some sick pervert. I am flaming you on purpose, roughly twice or three times a week, but mostly to see what your response is. So far I am disappointed, you need to straighten up and stop getting so damn emotional over this board.
So that's your little game. Like I just said,
Opinions make the world go 'round.
Now leave us alone and stop bashing us just for having our opinions. We don't bash you for your opinion, therefore I suggest you follow suit.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I'm not bashing you for your opinions, I'm bashing you for your quite easily measurable actions here on subtalk. And you have bashed people for their opinions, hell you can't even take constructive critism from Toro-papa. Next time you go about launching attacks you might wanna make sure you don't have a bunch of skeletons in your closet. I'm fairly certain that another trip through the archives will yield so many negative and flaming posts that the doors won't close!
Now there is no way in hell I'm going to respond to each and every one of your inane posts, you need to stop Post Whoring and get a life troll.
All 4train wanted to know what everyones favourite photo was - a decent question, and then he gets bashed for replying to a photo he liked. Why don't you just post a photo, shut up, and get on with your life. If you have a major dislike for him, IGNORE THE POST! You wouldn't want to waste time talking to the "troll" now would you, you obviously have better things to do. (If you hadn't noticed, that was sarcasm).
I'm not going to killfile anyone for their opinion, regardless of how much I disagree with it. They have a right to it, and you have a right to yours.
Words of advice: wdobner, with all due respect, stop post whoring and get a life yourself, If you don't like 4traintowoodlawn that much, killfile him, you won't hear of him ever again, and I think both of you could benefit from that. Instead, you put both of yourself in a put down war and everyone gets hurt.
I hope this settles this problem; or at least gives suggestions on how to take initiative to stop these ongoing flame wars. I cannot decide what is right to do for you, that is a decision you have to make yourself. Once you make a descision, I have no right to change that, I can only persuade. Nor may I just let you continue fighting each other, because we have enough problems in the world, we don't need another person to get bashed enough that they feel like crap for the rest of their life.
Shut up and move on!
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
If somebody ends up feeling like crap FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE because of verbal abuse on a fucking message board, they weren't very mentally stable to begin with.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
And to further shut you up:
See? You have your opinion that the R142s look terrible and indecent. We have our opinion that they look sharp. We also have our opinion that the R62s are bland. I did not flame you for having your opinion that the R142s looked terrible and the R62s were the exact opposite.
And one more thing:
You post little substanitive subway information,
Because the adults here know a little more than I do about my hobby! And BTW, as much as I post little substantiative subway info, at least I share my experiences and my photos and I take some photos that ain't bad at all (according to my FRIENDS)! And I post polls that ain't bad either that many members of the community participate in!
I have expressed myself. Now go away. Troll.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Just give it time!
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
30 year old, you got me pegged dead wrong. Now if you are able to, take your age, and add 7 (Hint, it should add up to all your fingers and toes). But no need to worry, you flatter me with your overestimation of my age.
You need a whole lot more than experience. You need to learn to let what others say to you roll off your back. You think Clayton, myself and other posters here who are sick of your antics are "trolls" then you have one hell of another thing coming should you ever decide to leave the sanctuary that is Subtalk. Subtalk is the bush leagues, try some of the newsgroups, or even just Yahoo transit groups, those things are nightmares.
Now, I am prepared to bury the hatchet, I apologize to whoever in the latest batch of n00bs I offended, and I accept apology from whoever may wish to apologize to me for things said in reply. I admit I have nothing against the R142s or anything, all subway cars are good, at least they're better than buses. I was merely playing an overenthusiastic devils advocate to your (IMHO) all-too-quick leap to judgement to crucify Mr. DefJef, and I apologize for any hurt feelings on your or your friend's part. I also look forward to possibly meeting you on a future MOD trip, it's good to see younger kids getting involved in railfanning. Heck I went on a PCC trip new years eve down here in Philly where I was the youngest aboard.
I agree that you need a thick skin, but I believe that there are
some things that are completely inappropriate to so to an 11 year old. Yes he needs to know that there is "adult content", in the way that it may be mature for even some of the older kids, and I don't think that a 6 year old that is exploring the net to find the "F**K you foamers " picture. I think that if you don't have a thick skin in life you will get walked over and you'll be a mess, but there is a fine line between tolerable and bullying insults.
I might have gone a little overboard with my accusations. I'm sorry, and I mean that truly, but that doesn't mean my opinions on this matter have changed.
I would love to come on a MOD trip, but this Torontonian family wont be coming to NY anytime soon (which I'm pissed about). I'll eventually come. I'll just have to keep railfannin' what we have.
Hope this extinguishes the fire,
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
P.S. I have also excepted your apology too.
I don't.
I don't think that a 6 year old that is exploring the net to find the "F**K you foamers " picture.
You see, that's the problem, what if a 6 year old had seen that picture and read that sign? You think it's wrong, I think it's no problem. The picture is not depicting graphical acts of sexual intercourse. The six year old will not know what it means. If a child reads it and knows what it means, it will not harm them, because they already know what it means. In addition, while the word fuck may have sexual connotations, it isn't used in that way here. I don't think Tico wants to engage in sexual activities with those foamers, it's just a curse word. I knew that fuck was a curse word long before I knew what it really meant. If a child doesn't know any curse words, he or she will just use something else to curse (doodoohead anyone?).
D'oh! I used wdobner's AIM name instead of his handle here.
To wdobner:
I accept your apology, and yes, I will continue to read your posts. I do not have as much against you now, but please stop with the tests. It would make it seem like you still think I am not your friend. So I will make like Bryan and lighten up, and I will be your friend and read your posts (and, of course, respond.).
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Sure did (just look at my other response)!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
You spoke too soon. :(:))
No gasping here. I don't care what your age is. Age is no marker of ability.
Ben, all you (and me) need is experience
You don't need experience, you need knowledge. There is nothing wrong with you not having as much as others, but it is not something that you gain with time. There are people who will disagree with this assessment, but they also happen to be the most reviled and least respected members of this board.
I think it is wrong to expect an 11 year old to have the same experience as a 30 year old.
It is, but it is perfectly reasonable to expect an 11 year old to have more knowledge than a 30 year old, although having knowledge does not cause you to outrank anyone. We're all peers.
(isn't that an R142A?)
No.
R142s have two-piece storm door frames. R142As have one-piece storm door frames.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I like this one too. R-62A with Shea Stadium in the background, and a blimp in the sky.
YOU DON'T SCARE ME!!!!
This picture speaks for itself.
And finally..
Bye-bye, birdies.
Annnnddd good riddance...
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Chuck
Adam
Give them a few years.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
The (4)WoodlawnBowlingGreen
I KNOW you're kidding.....right? >.>
Sometimes, LCD monitors have their disadvantages.
(When I posted 702388, I was using an LCD monitor. This post is using a regular monitor.)
Yup. 8-)
For example:
"< img src=Image's URL goes here in quotes />"
Find the image, and right-click on it and choose Properties. The image's URL should be there somewhere. On a Mac, Control-click the image and choose "Open image in new window." The image's URL will be displayed in the address bar.
(Note: Do not put a space between the first "<" and "img"; I did that so it would acknowledge this as an example.)
-RJM
Don't put spaces between the open "<" and "img." I only did that so the browser wouldn't think I was trying to add an image when I was trying to demonstrate how to use the "img" tag.
Also, the URL must be a full URL, and in quotes. For example: http://www.subwayspot.com/albums/RJM_5/we_are_number_one.jpg
-RJM
L@@K!
Thanks for the pic Dave!
you can also go to view and click source, youll see the HTML code.
I had the same problem,
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Heres a picture that I am extremely proud of taking.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Red Line trains at Glenmont
Emerging from the underground part of Fort Totten station
"The Bowl" at Dupont Circle
Those are my personal favorites from my own collection. These pictures and more can be found at The Schumin Web Transit Center.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Great pics!
Certainly not "the very best" I had ever taken, as I didn't even get a chance to look through a quarter of my photos, but here are some of my favorites, from just a small sampling, in no particular order"
I really like the reflection one.
As for the reflection one, yeah, I love that one too (although wish there was an engine in it). It was a parked train, and even though the train had already past when I got to that location, it was too good of a scene to pass up with the reflection. I had taken that somewhere in the Miami Area.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Here's a side view of the F40PH-2C in Coaster Service:
Here's a MBTA F40PH-2C:
And here's a Metra F40PH-2, note the lack of a large gap between the front truck and the equipment box under the loco:
To me it looks like the F40PH-2C has an additional area of grill behind the radiators. I'd be willing to bet that MBTA and Coaster opted for a supplementary HEP engine, possibly a 3rd party add on kinda thing, and that resulted in the body being lengthened. The same thing has happened with the F40PH-2CATs that NJT and MN has (not sure about MN's F40PHs, but I know NJT's), except that NJT didn't have the frame lengthened, they just removed the back porch area, covering it with the cowl body. It'd appear that MBTA and Coaster didn't want to lose that area, yet still wanted a different HEP engine, so they had the locomotives lengthened.
lets see if this works
Try <img src=image url goes here> again.
-Chris
lol..................
:-)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
Yeah, I haven't taken a lot of rail photos, so that's the best I could find. :-(
Out of all of our photos, my personal favorite (besides mine) was RJM's photo of the R142 on the (5). It was crisp, the colors looked great, and that's one of my favorite cars.
Thank you for sharing your excellent photos!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Subway Train Z
Eighty-Two Forty-Five
Slant W
Morning Express
Nice Pic!
Huge TTC fan,
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
http://home.comcast.net/~leverett/JJB/808_WTC.html
As an aside, I live in East Meadow. There is no station in East Meadow. The closest stations are in Hicksville, Westbury, Hempstead, Country Life, Merrick, Bellmore, Mineola, and Carle Place. Here is parking for each:Merrick-Lot fills up by 0700.Bellmore-Lot fills up by 0700.Hicksville-Requires Town of Oyster Bay PermitWestbury-High fee, not worth itHempstead-Limited parking a nice distance awayCountry Life-Limited parking filled up by 0700.Mineola-Most spots village only. If you're lucky you might hit the jackpot and find a vacant 12 hr meter and pay $3.E.Williston-Village permit required, not enough trains anywayCarle Place-Never parked there. Do not know situation, but not enough trains stop there anyway.
Too bad they dismantled the Central Branch before East Meadow was developed. There probably wouldn't be any parking anyway.
LI Bus? Yeah, right, I might ever take the bus to the LIRR. Yeah, right!!
I usually drive to Queens now and park on Jamaica Avenue for the "J" or Liberty Avenue for the "A".
One question though, why wouldn't you take the bus?
First there is the fare. Although most LIBus drivers honor my retired NYPD ID let's say they don't for argument's sake as I am an exception, most people have to pay. If I'm going with my wife and older son (7 yrs old, has to pay) it would be an extra $12 round trip just to go 3 miles to either Hempstead or Hicksville on the N48,N49. I might as well pay the parking fee at Westbury or risk the summonses at Hicksville. Besides the fact that it would probably double my commuting time. Also, while I am only a half block from the N48,49 most people on Long Island are not that close. They'd have to drive to the bus stop!!
To be honest with you, I got used to parking on Jamaica Avenue for the "J" or Liberty for the "A". At some stations there are plenty of spots right at the staircase. Of course I will only do that with my rusty '89 Corolla or my rusty '82 Yamaha bike. I would never park my 2004 Camry or my '91 Harley on Jamaica Av or Liberty!!!
Sounds like the MTA could use more park and ride lots at subway stations. How about a platform over the Jamaica Yard, with a new station in the yard for terminating V and R trains? Could be a $2.00 fee.
I don't know if you would want to park in that yard? Would it be safe at night?
By contrast, some London Underground stations at the outer ends of lines have parking lots of significant size. I've sometimes used Stanmore tube station and parked there, if for some reason I've been driving to London instead of going by train, because Stanmore is quite accessible from the North.
And you expect a bus running down every street or at least every other street in Nassau. How in heaven's name do you expect the majority of people in Nassau or Suffolk to get to the train station without driving there. It's not the city where you can walk a block or two and there is a bus waiting to pick you up.
LIB can still greatly expand the system without running on every other street. Just in Port Washington I can think of several new services that can be put it.
In 20 more years, there will be 15% more cars on the road than today. They better make a contingency plan and start building underground parking lots the size of 10 football fields in Nassau country or you'll be waking up at 4 O'clock in the morning for that last parking spot!
When I commute by train, I have the option of taking the bus to the station or taking the car. I almost always take the car. Why? The car gives me much more flexibility. Adding the bus to my commute means one more schedule that I have to coordinate with. Also, I can stop off and run errands on my way to and from the station.
The only time I take the bus is if I'm planning to be out late in the city that night and have a few drinks. The irony there is that by the time I get home, the bus usually isn't running anymore and I have to take a cab home (or walk the 1.25 miles).
CG
Also, what is it with people and all of a sudden not being able to walk more than one block? Many of the students at my school walk well over one mile everyday. I either take the bus(which is a quarter mile away) or I walk all the way(1.25 miles).
I don't move all that fast in the AM, so frequently what happens is this. Wake up intending to catch the 6:48, but walk out the front door to see the bus pulling away. My choice then becomes hop in the car and catch the same train or wait for the next bus and catch a train 15 minutes later (slowing down my entire day by 15 minutes in the process).
On the way home, the bus is timed to meet the trains. So for a train arriving at 7:44 PM, the bus will leave at 7:50 and get to my stop at 8:00. If my car is at the station, I can hop in and be home almost before the bus leaves -- as long as the train is on time. If the train is a little late, I don't save as much time but I still beat the bus. If the train is more than 10 minutes late, the bus will leave without the connection -- meaning I'll have to wait until 8:20 for the next bus.
Walking isn't a big deal, but walking a medium or long distance in a suit or even in "business casual" is a real drag -- especially if the weather is bad. Standing at a bus stop while you get splashed by passing traffic is no fun either.
Walking is also a tremendous waste of time, with the exception of the exercise benefit. I can cover the same ground in 6 minutes in my car that I can in 25 minutes walking. 40 minutes of additional free time each day means a lot to me -- especially since I only have about 3 hours of that in any given weekday.
CG
Yeah, in the future, I could cover the same distance in less time, but no, I'm gonna keep doing things they way I do them now. Why? B/c I'm not the spoiled lazy kinda person who needs things only one certain way.
Walking a mile and a half to school - or to one's workplace - is tolerable in most kinds of weather. Walking that distance to a train station, followed by an hour-plus train ride, followed by ten minutes on the subway, well that's a lot less pleasant.
It's not being on the train per se that's hard, it's the time away from home. Charles G has already written a response that pretty much sums up my views. As things now stand, I'm out of the house for about 12.5 hours each workday. Adding an extra hour or even half-hour onto that would be almost intolerable.
Life changes, my friend. If I'm up at 6 and into the office by 8 or 8:30. I don't leave the office until 6:30 or 7:00 most nights (some, like tonight 9:30), so I'll get home at 8:30 or so. If I'm going to get to be by midnight to do it all again that means I have 3.5 hours of personal time to play with the kids, relax, pay the bills, run a few miles sometimes, read SubTalk, etc. If I choose to walk to the station, that's 40-45 minutes of time wasted -- meaning I'll have less than 3 hours for the things I really want to do. It isn't that I can't walk -- it's that I'd be an idiot if I walked.
That all said, since changing jobs my office is now in Connecticut. I'm sure it horrifies you that I drive to the office most days, but 60 minutes each way in a car is far better than 2.5 hours on the LIRR/Subway/MetroNorth.
CG
Oh, as for school ending, try 3:05. That's 7 hrs of school. You say you don't leave until as late as 9:30. Oh wow! Big deal. Hell weeks I'm in until 11:30, plus antoher 3 hours of homework once I get home. But ya know what...I deal with it. I get those few hours of sleep, get up, and "waste" over an hour between leaving my house and starting school all over again. Why? B/c it's better that way. People offer me rides all the time. My reply, no thanks, I'll take the bus. Why? Cuz I give a damn and I'm willin to spend my time for it.
I don't think Trailways goes anywhere near Greenwich. Even if they did, I can't see their three or four busses a day on/off the island being any kind of frequency that would be acceptable to any commuter. Believe me, if there were a public transit option that could get me from the South Shore to Greenwich in less than 90 minutes and run with a reasonably reliable frequency I'd be all over it. I don't care if it was by wagon train.
I'm no fan of driving to work every day, even though I've found my way around most of the traffic. I used to get work done on the train, now I actually have to pay attention to driving. (It seems that the driving crowd really tends to frown on checking your e-mail while driving over the Throgs Neck Bridge).
I do take the train once in a while if I'm going to be in the office for more than 2 weeks straight -- just to break up the monotony.
CG
Where on the south shore are you anyway?
I would do a two or even three seat ride if it were consistently 90 minutes or less. 20 minute headways during rush hour aren't a problem, but there also needs to be some degree of reliable service until 9 or 10 PM.
CG
Agreed. Rush hour service on most routes are usually over by about 8:30. They really need to expand the frequent service to atleast 9:30. How bout this: Rush hour would qualify as 6-9:30 in the morn, and 4:30 or 5-9 in the evening. Times may vary on some routes though.
The system really needs to be improved all around. Trailways, Greyhound, and Shortline have excellent routes(especially Trailways IMO). I really wish they'd boost service during the rush hours. I've mapped out several new bus routes for a new company. The new company would also operate on those coach routes on LI as an extra service, with some more stops on some routes.
Just in case you're willing to try it out, I found something that while it is a bit longer than you wanted, may still work:
Adirondack Trailways: Leaves Freeport 7:00AM
Adirondack Trailways: Arrives New Rochelle 8:20AM
Metro North: Leaves New Rochelle 8:42AM
Metro North: Arrives Greenwich 9:02AM
2 hrs and 2 minutes commute time between the Freeport and Greenwich. 30 minutes more than you said though, so IDK.
Returning:
Metro North: Leaves Greenwich 7:41PM
Metro North: Arrives New Rochelle 8:02PM
Adirondack Trailways: Leaves New Rochelle 8:20PM
Adirondack Trailways: Arrives Freeport 9:45PM
2hrs 3 min. Bout 13bux RT on trailways, not sure how much on MN. I think the bus stop and train station are a few blocks away though.
I'd atleast do it once or twice a week, but it's up to ya. Just given you the info
1. A cross-Sound rail tunnel (or bridge?), along with a new north/south branch of the LIRR leading up to it. Imagine a railroad branch going from Deer Park station to Stamford, CT. I know it's a pipe dream...but it would be as useful as a new Hudson River tunnel, IMO. Could really be a great attraction for business and vacation travel too.
2. Enhanced ferry service...with smaller ferries for increased headways.
# 1 would be the coolest choice. And probably the wisest action to take, in the long run. Think of how it would change the travel patterns of the entire metropolitan area. In the short run though, a new grid of cross-Sound ferries along with good n/s bus (or, Lord help me, LRV) connecting services would work wonders. We gotta do something to effect travel pattern changes in the area. We're literally choking to death with all the cars and trucks and vans and cars and cars and cars clunking about.
As for the cross sound crossing, I say extend that I-287 rail line idea to Glen Cove. Trains could run New Haven to Far Rockaway(with the reconstruction of the Mineola-WH ROW). 287 line could go to OB maybe, or maybe rebuild the central and run it out east.
Oh, thanks for the compliment bout the schedule.
I agree on your comment on walking. Before the 22nd street station opened, (HBLR) I would bike 1.2 miles to the 34th street station each day. It took about 5 to 7 minutes depending on the lights. I'm not some Lance Armstrong but I found it easy and pleasant most of the time. I usually did it in dress pants and shirt. When it rained, I would wear a rain jacket. Gloves, ski mask and ear muffs were standard equiptment during the winter.
I found that riding a bicycle even during the cold weather for 7 minutes was easier than walking 20 minutes in that same temperature. The ski mask in my opinion, made biking even in the coldest temperature possible.
As a result, I never once took the bus in the past several years living in Bayonne.
At the work end of my train journey, I do take the bus, for three reasons: it's two miles, and uphill; when I tried it by bike (owning two bikes, one at each end), my second bike was stolen from the station over the weekend at the work end of the trip, despite being locked up; and the bus service at that end is better, every ten minutes.
Disadvantages: sweaty and wrinkly in your suit before work, soaked in your suit if it's raining, frozen in your suit if it's snowy, hair looks like you stuck your finger in a socket when it's windy.
That being said, I do agree it is probably healthier, but I don't know if I'd want to arrive at work looking like I just rolled out of bed after sleeping in my clothes and needing a shower.
Fair points, but they don't stop hundreds of people biking it to my station every day! Some wear biking clothes and change into their business clothes in the train bathrooms on the way to work (8-) , but they probably have longer bike journeys - things don't get too bad in one mile. At least being bald means I don't have the hair problem (8-) .
Walking is a way to "re-boot" your awareness of just exactly what it is you're doing when you hop in or on any powered vehicle to transport yourself. I don't think it's a good thing to totally divorce yourself from this awareness. After all, in the grand scheme of things, it is a fantastic adventure to be able to move about under your own steam. Especially in urban areas, but anywhere a provision has been made for pedestrian travel.
It's just a good thing to do. I make it a point to walk for at least an hour every day. Weekends, even longer. But it's true that you really have to orient your lifestyle around being able to incorporate walking into your daily rounds if you want to do it alot. You can either walk every day, even if you drive. Or move to a walkable community. Long Island, esp. Nassau, has a surprising number of them. To a varying degree. I'd say any town along the Babylon LIRR branch could be considered such. Places like Merrick or Rockville Centre or Massapequa have good walkable centers. Then there are some stops along the Mainline that have this advantage. Farmingdale, Hicksville, Westbury and Mineola come to mind. Also, roads like Hempstead Tpke and Merrick Road are good walking routes filled with stores and restaurants. And decent 7 days a week bus service.
Not saying a car is completely unnecessary in those places. But if you had to (and your workplace was transit-accessable) you could easily have that type of lifestyle. Big problem is, I think, that many people couldn't take the supposed blow to their egos, not being able to jump into their magnificent prideful vehicles to go even short distances. Maybe they are all too aware that folks driving past them as they walk are going to give them the same fish-eyed looks that they themselves give to walkers. It's like, some people think their car is another layer of skin.
Heh. I've walked the two miles or so home from Medford station on occasion when my car's been in the shop (my wife can drive me in the morning), and you are entirely correct about The Look you get from some drivers. It's like I was wearing a gorilla suit or something.
However, now that I have the second car, it rarely makes sense for me to use the bus or walk to the station. As for the "re-booting of awareness", I save that for when I'm running.
Unfortunately, the attitude you and others cite has made much of Long Island unsafe for walking. A few years back my father was hit by a car in downtown Oceanside. He was crossing with the light in a crosswalk and was hit by a car trying to quickly make a left turn before some oncoming traffic forced him to wait. The driver actually told the police "I never expected a person to be there". Oy.
CG
Particularly true in many parts of Suffolk (suburban Suffolk, not just rural Suffolk) that don't even have sidewalks. As a driver you even have to be careful for the people trying to walk or jog in the road because there are no sidewalks on many streets, even busy streets. Many of the "pedestrians" take their life in their hands by doing it at dusk, and right in the middle of the street sometimes!
Most parts of Suffolk would need to see bus service at least doubled in order for the average LIRR rider to be within walking distance of a bus stop. And that's not even mentioning the extra commuting time bus-train transfers would require, a big issue for people who already have long train riders.
Of course, I'm lucky being in Medford, where there's always parking at the station, albeit a station with limited service.
At the end of the day it all gets paid for somehow -- so I'd prefer to keep costs down where possible.
CG
The better alternative usually costs more, and this is no exception. The fewer cars on the roads the less congested they are, and their wont be as much pollution.
In general, I agree with that. However, I'm sure that they could reinaugurate service on the part of the Central line from Garden City to Merrick Ave. for a lot less than billions. There is plenty of space on the west side of Merrick Ave. for parking lots or garages that could serve areas such as East Meadow and Uniondale.
Agreed. New York Waterway tried this and failed. They had shuttles running through Jersey City but the motorist preferred to drive closer to the ferry.
Nah, it's a piece of cake. Sitting down in traffic is better than standing waiting for a bus or train? Just because you're sitting? Plenty of times I've been on highways where traffic crawled along for miles. Stopping dead. Moving slowly a few yards. Stopping dead. Yeah, I'm sitting down but it don't feel all that comfortable. Then you have to consider, cars break down, usually far from the exit, at night, in the rain.
Plus, nobody will stop you from walking around a little when you wait for your bus or train. Try doing THAT while driving...
I was talking about standing IN the bus or train, which is annoying and uncomfortable. Standing on a street or platform waiting for a bus or train is not so bad. Just try to walk around inside a bus! And standing on a bus is worse than on a train.
Trains and buses may be crowded, but pretty soon you'll be at your destination, and then you can leave.
While you are technically correct about both being a 3-seat ride it's hardly the same. Especially when the LIRR schedules its trains at 30 or more minute intervals. If the bus misses the connection, you immediately add 30 minutes to one hour to your commute. A bus is okay for stand alone transportation or for connecting with the subway with 6-8 minute headways but is too unreliable to make conections with the LIRR in Suffolk.
I actually have a detailed proposal for this that I developed many years ago, when asked to come up with a transportation plan for Staten Island. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of money lying around to pay off the legislature, so they have no reason to implement it.
People might be reluctant to ride with strangers.
YOU HAVEN'T MET!
I have another solution. Auction all the parking spot each month on EBAY. I'm sure the motorist would agree to paying more for a dedicated parking spot if it were held for auction each month. Heck. Some auctions may even go for low bids with the "PAY NOW" feature!
I came up with another idea. I'm on a roll folks.
Put up flyers around town saying you're willing to pay a local homeowner each month to park in their lot for XX amount of dollars. You never know what might happen. There just might be soneone in town how might let you park in front of their home for $100.00 dollars a month cash!
A few years back, the waiting list for parking permits at Metropark station in NJ was 7 years long (this was before they built the current multi-level parking structure -- now there is no waiting list). The parking permit was nothing more than a colored piece of cardboard that you displayed in your windshield. Monthly permits were bartered around town for all sorts of things. At one point, it was estimated that of all the cars parked in the permit lot on a given weekday more than half were displaying permits that had been transferred "off the record". Once you had one of these things being mailed to you on a regular basis -- you never gave it up.
CG
A few possibilities -- Freeport which has some under-utilized parking lots that could be converted to parking decks and reasonably good highway access from the Meadowbrook. Plenty of express trains running through Freeport during the rush hour already could have stops added if there were sufficient demand. Problem here is that the land is owned by the Village of Freeport, I'm not sure you could convince them to build a deck for outsiders unless it would pay for itself. You might be able to buy the land from them, though.
Belmont Park. Huge parking lots that are almost never filled -- at least not on weekdays. I don't even think you need to build a garage here. I have to think that a park-and-ride here could do well, as the local communities (Elmont, No. Valley Stream, Franklin Square) have no LIRR access and limited parking opportunities at the stations in other towns.
CG
Carle Place can fill up pretty quickly, all 10 spots. The problem is that the entire south side of the station is adjacent to houses or the park, and therefore has no parking.
If I'm getting there after 1pm or so, thats when I head to the main lot, and wait for a eastbound train and take a spot.
I wouldent consider taking LI bus because its about a half mile walk from my house to the N48(?) bus to take me to bellmore, and the bus only comes once an hour.
I should point out that I say this even though I do take the bus rather than drive. Of course the bus is only half a block away and it runs every 6-12 minutes. Since the transfer from the bus to the subway is free, it costs absolutely nothing. If I had the choice of walking a half mile to a bus I'd have to pay for and have to make sure to get there at a certain time, and then if I missed it have to walk all the way back home to get the car, I wouldn't even bother doing it once.
NIMBY: Before saying something, why don't you think? If Long Island Bus was more feasable for people, then more people would take it.
Also, during rush hour, alot of buses run frequently. I'm mean routes like N20/N21, N23, etc. People always ask me how I get places and I say the bus. They start askin me all sorts of questions about this bus they've never even heard of.
If I'm not mistaken, Baldwin does as well though that's a bit further.
CG
As an aside, I live in East Meadow. There is no station in East Meadow. The closest stations are in Hicksville, Westbury, Hempstead, Country Life, Merrick, Bellmore, Mineola, and Carle Place. Here is parking for each:Merrick-Lot fills up by 0700.Bellmore-Lot fills up by 0700.Hicksville-Requires Town of Oyster Bay PermitWestbury-High fee, not worth itHempstead-Limited parking a nice distance awayCountry Life-Limited parking filled up by 0700.Mineola-Most spots village only. If you're lucky you might hit the jackpot and find a vacant 12 hr meter and pay $3.E.Williston-Village permit required, not enough trains anywayCarle Place-Never parked there. Do not know situation, but not enough trains stop there anyway.
Too bad they dismantled the Central Branch before East Meadow was developed. There probably wouldn't be any parking anyway.
LI Bus? Yeah, right, I might ever take the bus to the LIRR. Yeah, right!!
I usually drive to Queens now and park on Jamaica Avenue for the "J" or Liberty Avenue for the "A".
BTW-Hicksville is the toughest to find a place to park, permit or not. Lot of Levittown people use Hicksville or Wantagh.
Bill "Newkirk"
"trew"? Obviously "through", I have no idea what I was typing there, I guess it's too early in the morning....
Peace,
ANDEE
Sayville seems to get reasonably close to capacity, at least compared to Islip and Oakdale, but never fills completely AFAIK.
The parking lot that really surprises me is Brentwood. It's on the super-popular Ronkonkoma line, is free and unrestricted, and isn't too far from the platforms. Should be packed very early, right? Not hardly. In fact, it never appears to be as much as half-full.
Don't bother about Carle Place, very few parking spaces on the north platform are available. I say very few, like New Hyde Park has more parking spaces (and that's not saying very much.).
http://mta.info/lirr/images/stationmaps/hempsteadgardens.pdf
CG
A lot of towns near train stations are doing that. They don't want the motorist taking up their parking spots. What's the poor motorist to do nowadays?
With the summer just around the corner, why not take a bicycle to the train station? The parking situation at the HBLR isn't as bad as the LI Railroad yet but I can see the situation getting that way in the next couple of years.
Using a bicycle, you get the best spot and can park real close to the train. In other words, the best spot is reserved for your use every day of the year!
My solution is that the LIRR should issue an ultimatum and tell the communities that have railroad stations, if they don't provide ample, reasonably priced parking for for both resident and non-resident commuters, the trains would just not stop at those stations any longer. I would give them, say, 2 years to comply.
By the way, Mineola doubled their meter rates on January 1 from a quarter an hour to a quarter a half-hour. It now costs $5-$6 for a day.
As a result there is plenty of parking now at Mineola - I would say that only about half of the available meters are being used on a typical weekday. They're certainly not bringing in much more money to the Village coffers than before the hike!
Also as a result, the free Town of Hempstead-run lot at the nearly Merillon Ave. Station now fills up before 6AM in the morning. The last train for which there is any parking remaining is the 5:58AM. Many people (myself included) who used to park at Mineola get up earlier to park free at Merillon Ave. rather than pay the $5-$6 at Mineola.
An excellent idea, though I'd give them a lot less time to comply.
I see this attitude on the park and ride lots for the HBLR. Local law inforcement tries to extract as much money from the motorist as possible. It's like these small towns try to make "profit centers" out of these parking lots. Insanity.
Other NYCT scenes are on my gallery, keyword subway.
Nice shots.
-Chris
1. Increase number of Greenport trains greatly, with some going to NYP during rush hours(Some making all stops to KO, then on to Farmingdale, Hicksville, Mineola, Jamaica, and NYP. The super express would run Greenport-Riverhead-Manorville-Yaphank-KO-Fdale-Hicksville-Mineola-Jamaica-NYP).
2. Relay Manorville-Eastport(new ROW required around game farm). During rush hour, run some trains from Montauk to NYP via that route. All stops from Montauk to Manorville(including re-opening of Eastport), then Yaphank, KO, Fdale, Hicksville, Mineola, Jamaica, NYP.
3. Build branch from Main line to Mac Arthur Airport and extend all electric trains from KO to the airport.
4. Extend Port Jeff line to Riverhead as originally planned. Run trains from Greenport, all stops to Port Jeff, then Stony Brook-Smithtown-maybe Northport-Huntington-Hicksville-Mineola-Jamaica-NYP
5. One train on Friday evenings and Sunday middays during the summer from NYP to Montauk, super express. Stops are NYP-Jamaica-Mineola-Hicksville-Babylon-Bay Shore-Patchogue-Southampton-Montauk. Other trains would make the same run with all the hampton stops on all days all yr round.
6. Suffolk County rapid transit system. Would run on current tracks and the relayed ROWs. Routes would be:
Montauk to Mac Arthur Airport via Manorville-Eastport
Montauk to Greenport via Manorville-Eastport
Montauk to Babylon via Montauk line
Greenport to Mac Arthur Airport via main line and new Mac Aurthur spur
Greenport to Huntington via Port Jeff extension to Riverhead
Babylon to Mac Arthur Airport via old hospital spur connecting main and montauk lines(From either Central Islip or Brentwood down to Islip).
The trains would make every stop on the lines including reopened stops like Water Mill, Center Moriches, Easport, and Manorville. I'm still trying to decide whether to just say reopen every station or just some of them.
The service at some stations(mostly the re-opened ones) would shift all their service to the rapid transit, while others would be served by both. This way, LIRR can run sort of like the express service of the rapid transit system, while the actual rapid transit makes every stop on the system.
Electrify the Port Jefferson line like it should have been 10 years ago?
Really, nobody's going to take the PJ when they can drive to a KO line station and get a faster direct train in. The LIRR's been fighting an uphill battle to get people to even think of the PJ line for years now. Nobody wants to change at Jamacia, nobody wants spotty service, and the DE/DMs are slow as shit and unreliable to boot. They should stop pretending that their crappy unreliable diesels are actually 'just like an electric' and wake up already. ask any PJ line rider - they would much rather electric service than the existing crap. It's why the yards have been opposed so much - people want the 'new electric yard' to be in Port Jefferson, not everywhere else where the RR wants to stick it.
Also, my plan called for direct NYP service. Maybe you should try to actually read it some time.
They were a mistake, but not as colossal a boner as ordering the M7's with 3x2 seating. That was a total disaster.
So now that we are stuck with them, in the short run they should increase service between Riverhead and Ronkonkoma with frequency like "Speonk to Patchogue" like service, and reopen Manorville as a station in the process.
One or two extra trainsets is probably all that would be needed.
First, LIRR rules call for MAS of 65 MPH in non-electrified territory. If the Port Jeff line were electrified, then the MAS could be increased to 80 MPH.
Second: Admittedly nitpicking but I don't believe that the Ronkonkoma Branch is actually referred to as the KO branch. KO refers to the interlocking at Ronkonkoma Station.
I think you're right bout the second thing. I was just in a rush when I was typing that so I just used KO.
I find the diesels better than the electrics. They have seats designed for normal human beings, not midget anorectic quadruple amputees. That makes a huge difference in one's comfort on a long ride. And the change at Jamaica's the ultimate easy-as-pie no-brainer.
Here's a small .bmp I assembled:
If you're going to electrify the rest of LIRR, forget the categary (too much NIMBY and not compatible with LIRR practices). Just put third rail into the rest of it and commit to a fleet that is all MUs. You can even have some MUs redesigned into bar cars or meal cars if you want.
People whose sole diesel-train experience involved the old coaches might be forgiven for harboring a dislike of the diesel lines. The old coaches had 3x2 seating, and in their latter years were in wretched condition. But the bilevels are far more comfortable, compared to the old coaches as well as to the electrics, that it's hard to understand how anyone couldn't appreciate them.
As for the prejudice against the change at Jamaica, well, I've given up trying to understand. It's usually about quick and easy as it could be.
Jamaica is easy too, most of the time. I admit to sometimes wondering, "Will I have to get off, run through a passageway to another track, then hope I didn't miss the transfer?" That isn't usually a rational thought, since most transfers are same platform types, but it's there.
Jamaica's even easier for regular riders, as in most cases they'll know what track their connecting train will be using.
You are right that most transfers are cross-platform types. It's rarely necessary to use the stairs.
Don't Spam your site neither...
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Regular cocaine also has a social cachet that crack definitely does not. It's sort of like the difference between Dom Perignon and Thunderbird. I mean, can you imagine celebrities and supermodels hanging around a nightclub's VIP room and smoking crack?
is it as good as cocaine?
The Redbirds were the new-tech cars of their day, and someday the R142s will be led off to the scrapper and replaced with something newer and presumably better. In the meantime you can just make due with what you have and enjoy having arguably the best subway system in the Western Hemisphere at your doorstep. Enjoy all car classes and the unique atmosphere they bring to the tunnels, for the time each spends in the system is limited and when they're gone you might just find yourself missing something.
D to Brighton Beach!!
I liked it better when they were running in service, not in line to take "the long barge ride."
Oh the humanity!!!....
At least Redbird fans still have this to visit now:
Saw too many streetcars go that way. (sob....)
1st - The MTA is selling surplus Redbird materials you can purchase as mementos. Some of the prices are unreasonable, but I'm sure people are willing.
2nd - Oren's (WMATAGMOAGH) transit website has some awesome photos and video clips of the Redbirds. Download and watch 'em! If you want to go even older, John's (Bombardier) website, SubwaySpot has video clips of the SMEE cars, of which the Redbirds are a part.
3rd - Mark S. Feinman has produced some great Redbird-oriented tapes and other transit content. Consider buying some.
4th - Photos and photos. Of course, you have SubwaySpot and Oren'sTransitPage as I said before. Also check out RIPTA42HopeTunnel and Sir Ronald's photo sections on their websites; you won't be disappointed.
I hope this helps.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Wait, I love the redbirds, that was just cruel... but true.
There still are some left right? enough for an 11 car (7) MOD trip?
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
D to Brighton Beach!!
You yourself have admitted the Brighton is your second favorite line - mainly because that's how you got to Ebbets Field.
You yourself have admitted the Brighton is your second favorite line - mainly because that's how you got to Ebbets Field.
The P and X only run on my fantasy service for fully SAS open(map in work):
A Inwood-Rockaways (8 Av X,CPW X,Fulton X; all times except nights)
B Inwood-BB (6 Av X;CPW L;Brighton X;all times 168-PP;wekdays to BB; nights to Inwwod)
C Norwood-WTC (8 Av L; CPW L; all times from 145;rush from BPB;nights from Norwood)
D Norwood-CI (6 Av X; CPW X;skip DeKalb; 4 Av X; all times except nights)
E 179-Lefferts (QB X; Hillside L;53 St; 8 Av X;Fulton L; all times; nights from QP)
F 179-CI (QB X;Hillside X;53 St;6 Av L; all times; rush from Kings Hwy; nights from QP)
G 179-Chruch (X-Town L;QB L;Hillside L; all times; non-rush from Smith; midday/rush from QP; weekend/even from FH; nights from 179)
J JC-Broad (BBway L;all times;rush/midday skipstop JC-BJ peak dir;off-peak dir JC-Myrtle)
K 179-WTC (QB X;Hillside L;53 St;8 Av L;weekday)
M Metro-Chambers (BBway peak X;all times; nights/even/weekend only Metro-Myrtle)
N 125-CI (Bway X; 4Av X;Sea Beach;skip DeKalb;all times;nights only 59-CI)
P JC-CI (QB X;skip 75 Av&Van Wyck;63 St;6 Av L;Culver peak X; weekday;midday from 2 Av)
Q JC-CI (QB L;63 St;Bway X;Brighton L;all times)
R Astoria-95 (Bway L;4 Av L; all times)
S Franklin-PP
T Chambers-CI (4 Av L; West End;weekday and nights rush to Bay Pky; midday to 9 Av;nights to CI)
X 125-Hanover (all times)
Z JC-Broad (weekdays skipstop peak JC-BJ;off-peak dir Myrtle-JC;BBway peak X)
... or functional!
AND... They CLEANED THE GLASS while they were changing the bulbs! :)
(Probably Replaced the Glass... maybe the new bulbs would not have fit in the old glass.)
Elias
http://www.newsday.com/news/columnists/ny-nysub033784044may03,0,2316818.column?coll=ny-news-columnists
Mr. Jabbour feels that the current map is old, too large, too loaded with unnecessary information and causing the subway system to be under utilized.
I was particularly amused by this criticism of the current map:
"Then, you have what Jabbour calls the "hidden line syndrome," the confusing system of grouping same color lines, such as 1, 2 and 3 lines along Broadway and Seventh Avenue in Manhattan, as one line... (In his map) Every train line is depicted with its own corresponding line on paper. It's easier to tell what train stops where on his map."
I don't know. He obviously has done his R&D work by buying maps on Ebay and studying them. But I'd really love to see his representation of the west side Central Park service. The current map has 3 distinct colored lines for the 1/2/3/9, A/C and B/D.
If I understand his creative concept, he would represent the service with 8 different lines.
You would think with all the publicity surrounding the 100th Anniversary, Mr. Jabbour would have had his map ready for the market.
Out of curiosity, I ran his name through Google along with Kick Design. Nothing came out on a web search, while there was 1 result in a Google news search, Ray Sanchez's article.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/1969.gif
The dotted lines were particularly useful to out of towners since dashed lines on highway maps usually indicated "not built yet or not opened yet" or some other warning sign of "CHECK this" before you look for it ... Even this 1972 map, after I left the system, was more useful than the pablum published today ...
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/1972.jpg
I don't think it's helpful to have a different color for every distinct route. People who are new to the system are most likely to be traveling in Manhattan. One color for each Manhattan trunk line makes the map easier to read.
http://community.webtv.net/hey-paul/EddieJabboursDesign
One of these days I'll get around to my map.
That would be great for the tourists, but less useful for, say, the Brooklynite who has to figure out how to get to Bayside. Also, weren't the "pop-up" bus connections added for the "new, improved" map in 1996?
As far as fumbling with the full-sized map, I suppose he's never seen the Z-card maps...
Especially for tourists it is probably the best. In other languages our letters sound different, even if they speak some English, trying to use a letter may confuse them. Point out a color and its more understood. As long as they're travelling within the CBD, where lines break off from the trunk is not a problem.
On a trip to NYC some years ago, I found a postcard with such a map on it - it obviously wasn't an official MTA offering, but I thought it worked.
If you need proper aspecting, buy a Hagstrom. :)
BTW even though the 1972 "spaghetti" map has been denounced as too complicated (a point with which I agree), I still think it has an interesting look - alas, the second time I visited the Transit Museum some years later, they'd run out of copies, so that section of my wall is still bare (sob!)
The 1972, I have one but it's old, tattered, and not worth collecting. Same for the other maps of that vintage, only had one and am missing several. Never thought there was much value in collecting subway maps, but I *do* have the one with the RJ, JJ and NX on it. Same deplorable browned out condition having sat in a cardboard box for too many years ...
Me, I never have. Call me a rookie, but it seems that everyone walks over to the map on the car wall. I'll bet a pocket version of the map would result in more folks unfurling the map in the train though.
Your pal,
Fred
:-) Andrew
- Murray Hill, Locust Manor, and St. Albans LIRR Stations
- Path of Nassau Street line between the Marcy Avenue station and the Williamsburg Bridge
- Paths of various ferries
So much for not blocking anything...
Turn the map around for LIRR information.
- Path of Nassau Street line between the Marcy Avenue station and the Williamsburg Bridge
Doesn't matter. No stations are blocked.
- Paths of various ferries
The buses are more important than most of the ferries.
"Our subways are underutilized," he said."
How stupid. The greater usage in Moscow has nothing to do with the map. It has everything to do with the greater respect for public transit in Europe, the less availability of cars in Moscow, the lower standard of living there, probably the greater density of more of the areas served by the subway there, etc., etc.
The one shred of truth here is that the NYC Subway System definitely is confusing to tourists, who often find it intimidating. But the reasons for this are varied and complex, and have a lot to do with the way the system was designed and assembled over many decades. To blame it all on the map is simplistic.
I do agree that comparisons to Moscow are ridiculous.
Anyway, here's a link to the image.
http://community.webtv.net/hey-paul/BetterShotofEddie
Seriously - it's not the multicolor that made sense to this (I suppose since the Party of God types INSIST on calling me a "liberal") "hippie type Santa Claus wannabee lookalike" but it's damned good. For those who NEED a map, the ability to put your finger on a line in an outer borough (or even "downtown") and trace it out to "this is the train I want" is both intuitive and actually PRETTY.
I endorse it. Seriously.
I think it's PERFECT for what MY opinion's worth. Accomplishes the same thing as the old spaghetti map without the morning acid hangover. :)
I'd quite like to have the line colors being different without being psychedelically so:
12394567SACESBDFVGJMZLNQRWS
Unless you have a super-duper colour calibrated monitor, nothing that you see on the screen is going to resemble anything in print in any case.
1/9234567SACESBDFVGJ/ZMLNQRWSY
But
He has 'cheated' by abbreviating the station names. St is missed off and just the number is given. It permits much more space. A few too many kinks too. Do passengers really benefit from knowing that the L and M are twisty-turny? Does the F really need the 'blip' at Prospect Park?
I'm not sure that every service needs its own strand. The main problem for intending travellers is surely the express-local distinction. This could be cured by showing two branching strands for each of the major routes. Thats how the A is shown in Brooklyn and Queens in any case.
If there is another deterent to travel, surely it is the different service patterns different days of the week and times of day. All these rush-hour only, weekday only, and tidal express services add to the confusion. That's not a map problem.
Granted. It's the flip side of the coin. The NYC subway is the world's most flexible subway, but the downside is that customers have a lot more information to digest.
I'm really like the look of the map.
http://community.webtv.net/R9Blues/MoreDetailOfEddie
I just would like to remark though, that some lines should/could be straightened out.
Brian... I'm posting whatever Mr. Jabbour has sent me, with his approval. I have never met him nor seen his map.
Seriously, JUST the way it's going ... it's PERFECT! And what REALLY makes it nice to this old timer in particular is the waviness to the lines as they work around other routes ... it combines USEFUL information, and for the first time *ART* to a subway map ... I doubt the adminiswigs and docudroids at the Teeyay could STAND such a concept, but I for one would PAY for a map like that ... The more I see of it the more I REALLY like it. And I'm a REAL fuss pot when it comes to changing things. (grin)
But in ALL sriousness, I really LIKE this one ...
The MTA *should* buy it though ... alas, I know better than expecting they'd do something SMART for a change at the top. :(
"There are actually 3 maps that are designed for the different information people need in different situations. The map you see here is the pocket Day / Evening map (8 5/8" x 11 1/4") small enough to really fit in a person's wallet. Unlike the current "Z" pocket map, this map has complete information for all the trains that stop at the stations. A companion map on the other side shows all the subway lines running from Midnight to 6 am. This map shows which stations you can crossover free in the opposite direction and which stations you can not, in case you miss your stop. The third map is the most comprehensive although it is only about half the size of the current transit map.
This map has all the information of the above two plus color coded neighborhoods (colored like the states are in a map of the USA) so you can see which neighborhoods the subway system travels in all 5 boroughs! (I will get a picture of this map to you as well, probably tomorrow). Unlike the pocket maps, this map also has a comprehensive grid of named streets.
One last note on all three maps. While stylized for clarity, all 3 are "station accurate" - meaning that all the stations are in relatively correct position to each other. This is unlike the famous or infamous "Vignelli" map (1972 - 1979) which distorted the positions of the stations / lines for graphic harmony. As one example, note the "L" line's path from Lorimer St. to Jefferson St. I hope this brief explanation helps. I am very interested in your suggestions and feedback once you can see more!"
-Alargule
I'd like to see how he handles major landmarks. I didn't grow up in New York. On my first visit alone, in my early twenties, I tried to reach the United Nations by subway. It won't surprise anyone to hear that I failed. I'm sure I was neither the first nor the last tourist to make the attempt.
I like the design, but I really don't think it does justice to some routes' hours of operation (The B, G, and M come to mind).
Another question - is this "Day/Evening" map intended to show weekend service as well, or only weekdays?
Also, different versions for different times? I thought this design was to cut down on the size of the map you carry? While it may do that you have to carry more maps if you're not travelling during one time period.
So long as he doesn't violate MTA copyrights (and there are other non-MTA NYC subway maps for sale out there) he can do it.
If noboy bought them, the stores would stop carrying them. I do not know exactly how popular they are, though. I don't have sales figures on them.
http://community.webtv.net/R9Blues/3rdMapLargeStation
I hope that the image is not suffering too much from the switch of his PC jpeg to WebTv and back to a PC screen.
Peace,
ANDEE
You MIGHT try dumping what's there (something's wrong with it but Netscape forgives to a far better degree than Internet Exploiter as far as "well, I've got MOST of the file, I'll show you what I got") and reuploading it. Maybe Kismet will smile. From what I saw of the UPTOWN area, Unca Selkirk's getting a boner. I *love* the division of neighborhoods and naming of same. I'd LOVE to see the rest of it. For all the whining about "it doesn't show the right schedule for this train" and such, the *MAP* just gets more delicious with each and every demo. This guy could give Hagstrom a SERIOUS run of competition. It JUST keeps getting BETTER AND BETTER!
If Eddie is following these posts, perhaps he could post the image here directly, or e-mail me another image of it, which I will forward to someone with a computer.
Might have just gotten corrupted on THEIR servers ... that last (ahem, kaff) "security update" of theirs hosed a LOT of machines, including theirs. And opened MANY brand new security holes, "Ashcroft-style" ...
In all seriousness, the file probably got damaged at MSN ... dump it, try it again, maybe it'll work. If not, wait until their next update later this month and MAYBE they'll fix some of those shiny new bugs that have me now sleeping less than 6 hours a day (18 on the job now) just trying to keep up with everybody blaming ME for software kissing the sidewalk (I swear on a stack of shoe slippers, there's *NO* mutation capabilities in what I sold folks, if I could make software do THAT, I'd be frigging RICH! Heh) ... But chalk it up to another "Billy boning" at track speed ... try pulling what you uplodaded, send it again - Might work. Windows lately has been as predictable as LOOTO. :)
Maybe I should keep hush to my co-workers here Hagstrom. ;)
I hope you're not trying to play "who can get the Hagstrom newbie fired first!"
Maybe I should keep hush to my co-workers here Hagstrom. ;)
I hope you're not trying to play "who can get the Hagstrom newbie fired first!"
Anyone who remembers Windows98 (NOT "second edition") can remember the screwage vividly ... "Oh, we're SO sorry you have Windows98, there are NO discounts or free upgrades to "second edition, NOW available during the midnight media event at BestBoy" ... after all, if you don't completely futtbuck what's OUT there, who's gonna buy another version of the same CHIT when it is proclaimed "Best Windows EVER?" :)
Seriously, the pooch's butthole is twitching. :(
To Mr Jabbour: I'm a big fan of this new map system. You've solved a lot of the problems that I myself had identified when looking over the tasks involved in designing such a map, and in the current one (I have considered doing a project like this for my Senior Project next year). I've actually blogged about your map on my site (permalink to article), I hope you don't mind me using the images and quotes which have surfaced on this board (with credit, of course).
I look forward to seeing more of this new map. I've love for an uncorrupted version of the midtown preview to be put up. One note: The neighborhood around Hell's Kitchen has been recently renamed Clinton. On your map, it's labeled "Clinton Hill" This is probably going to confuse a lot of people when compared to Clinton Hill in Brooklyn.
Great work showing the part-time stops and routes, also.
He has just sent me another view of the 3rd map which isn't as intense and hopefully Webtv can digest more easily.
http://community.webtv.net/hey-paul/EddieJabbours3rdMap
If this gets distorted, I have the original e-mail jpeg which I can forward to anyone who is interested.
http://community-2.webtv.net/R9Blues/NightTimeMap
"you have the Jersey trolley tunnel which is now over half completed across the Hudson River, which costs $10,000,000"
Which tunnel does this refer to?
It's on Sunday May 16th at 11:30 am, 1:30 pm and 3:30 pm. Tickets are $20 and must be purchased in advance at any of the following locations:
The Melting Pot 492 Atlantic Ave 718-596-6849
Circa Antiques 377 Atlantic Ave 718-596-1866
Silk Road Antiques 313 Atlantic Ave 718-802-9500
Bklyn Hts Bike Shop 278 Atlantic Ave 718-625-9633
A Cook's Companion 197 Atlantic Ave 718-852-6901
People are advised to bring a flashlight and wear sturdy shoes. The tour runs Rain or Shine.
I've never gone down there. I've heard that the tunnel might be uncomfortable for people who are claustrophobic or fearful of being trapped. Has anyone been on the tour?
--Mark
Hayos
Holy Crap, that's the tour I was on! You may be in some of my photos....
It's not that bad, really. As Mark indicated in his post, it's a relatively narrow walk after descending through the manhole cover, but once down there the tunnel is quite large, cool, and a bit damp, but there is natural light coming through in a couple of places. My older son and I went back in '97 or '98; not sure I would do it again now due to my worsening arthritis, but I'm glad I did go then. I'm somewhat claustrophobic and didn't have any problems - it's wide open down there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you gotta get down on your hands and feet or something before entering the main segment of tunnel?
Yes, yes, and yes.
Here are some photos from my 1994 tour of the Atlantic tunnel. Most are from the area right at the beginning. I don't have too many quality ones of the actual tunnel itself, as most are too dark to post (I didn't have that great of a camera at the time), but the majority of the tunnel is much larger than these photos would show. Part of the tunnel has been filled in, and that is the "small area" shown in these phtos that you have to crawl through to get into the non-filled in section of the tunnel.
This is the manhole cover you must got through to enter the tunnel:
This is the "filled-in" area of the tunnel that you must go through to get to the "not filled in" section of the tunnel:
View on the side of "passageway" where you are really high up on the filled in section. Notice original brick ceiling:
This is the "hole" you have to crawl through and down to get from the "filled in" area to the main part of the original intact tunnel. The first image is from the crawl area looking into the tunnel, the second one is taken in the opposite direction, from the main tunnel looking to the "hole" to the filled in area that you must enter through:
The tour ended with a tour in Red Hook with a tour of Mr.Diamond's trolley barn, back when there was so much hope for trolleys. Of course, that won't happen now with the unfortunate end result of his project. I don't feel like scanning those photos now, but will at a later date.
AcelaExpress
-Acela
Also, forget hardcore, you really aren't much of a railfan at all.
Acela
The reason the tunnel was built was because steam locomotives in use at the time could not negotiate the grade at that point on Atlantic Ave.
Maybe I'll catch some of you guys there. Instructions are to wear a good pair of shoes and bring a flashlight, so this should be good :)
You'll find the article here:
http://www.downtownexpress.com/de_51/trainsplanes&shelly.html
Actually, I shouldn't be surprised. It took NYCT two plus years to replace a single escalator at Boro Hall, so why shouldn't it take seven years to open a 20 block subway line?
The advantage of cut and cover -- the entire line was under construction at the same time. Here, most of the work will not start until the TBM goes by.
I really feel that when we celebrate the 100th birthday in less than 6 months, MTA and NYCT should erect a memorial honoring the lives that were fallen in the building on NYC's first subway. I don't care if they put the memorial or plaque anywhere, just put it SOMEWHERE for the spirit of the people.
Why not all?
I'm not surprised. A huge construction project will have to take place AFTER the hole is there, and putting the hole there will take some time.
To me, the travesty is that the portion north of 96th Street will not be funded. Because it is cut and cover, there is no engineering reason why it couldn't be done at the same time.
Read Chapter 3 of the FEIS. It's a veritable treatise on subway construction, and you get a new appreciation of why it's a 7-year process.
Comparisons to 1904 aren't really relevant. In those days, they were willing to shut down the entire avenue for cut-and-cover construction, and they didn't care how many properties and parks they displaced. They also didn't have to build connections to existing underground lines, and there were far fewer utilities and other sub-grade obstructions to worry about.
To me, the travesty is that the portion north of 96th Street will not be funded. Because it is cut and cover, there is no engineering reason why it couldn't be done at the same time.
A good deal of the section north of 96th is not cut-and-cover. Again, read Chapter 3.
There's no set answer. The FEIS suggests that some sections will be tunneled north-to-south, and others south-to-north. They could even do both in the same section: dig one of the tubes, then disassemble and turn the machine 180 degrees, and dig the other.
My guess is that it'll take ten years from the start of construction (if work ever starts, that is).
Given a perfect world, things would be done more quickly, but given the concerns that must be dealt with (having a minimal impact on traffic, not impacting on the businesses and residential buildings in the area, one of the area Community Boards is completely against any lane closures on Sunday), it's a miracle that things are going as quickly as they are.
Generations ago, the city could say "get out of the way" and people would, and work would be done comparatively quickly. Those days are gone.
You're right! In my haste, I failed to consider that fact. Men were treated worse than pack animals back then. Leave in the pertinent measures that protect the health, and physical safety of the workers. Taking it all into consideration, it's still possible to build it relatively faster to what's being planned IMO.
Dont' feel bad. Let's put it in perspective.
It will probably be 20 years before i get HSR, which all the plans and studies are done!. 2-3 years for another mile of trolley track. I estimate 15 years for 20miles of LRT in Tampa, which even has FTA approval to be built now! I doubt that schumcks will gimme monorail either, which would definately get approval!
And Orlando spent millions on a system that had a start date of 1999! And I could go on about highways. :)
I honestly dont' get why it takes so long to build any of these things, but at least yours is going to be built before anyone elses!!! I wonder where houston would be by then!
Keep in mind that the "seven year" timeframe for the Second Avenue line surely will grow like Pinocchio's nose.
MTA has shown the ability to finish projects on schedule or even early given full funding commitments and cash showing up on time.
Keep in mind that the "seven year" timeframe for the Second Avenue line surely will grow like Pinocchio's nose.
Part of the constraint on how fast they can build is how fast the money shows up in the checking account to pay the contractors. That schedule is something MTA does not directly control.
Having used to work in front of "The Pit" on 41st Ave in Long Island City, I see the slow process everyday, from the time the contractors put up the boards to create the construction zone, to the completion of two ventaliation plants.
They did a lot more than that.
"Having used to work in front of "The Pit" on 41st Ave in Long Island City, I see the slow process everyday, from the time the contractors put up the boards to create the construction zone, to the completion of two ventaliation plants."
Indeed. What you didn't see was the moving of asewer siphon, the construction of slurry walls and other measures to keep ground water out of the subway (always a scourge in Queens), the diversions built to allow construction to proceed without stopping subway service through the corridor, and of course the restrictions imposed by working in a cut and cover situation. That, plus the complete rebuild of 3 miles of track (adding crossover switches and signals to the rest of the 63rd Street line).
All ccomplished on weekends and at night. What times were you in front of the pit?
If you want to read more about the project, look up the 63rd Street line section here on Subtalk.
OK. By the way, I also communicate off-line with other Subtalkers sometimes, and I do not share their names or subjects of communication on Subtalk unless they specifically say OK. That's seems to be standard Subtalk etiquette.
"and during lunch hour or before/after work, you can walk a block up from the office building to the pit or take the S/B N train from 39th Ave station and see the progress."
Very cool - whatever you could see from the pit.
"And you are wrong again, the work was done on weekdays at the pit,"
No, I'm not wrong. I was not referring only to the pit. I was referring to all the different elements of work that, if they were done during the day, would force an interruption to subway service. Sure there were workers visible to you at the pit - but that doesn't mean you saw the whole project, or even most of it. For that, you had to be in the construction area under Northern Blvd. as well as up and down the 3 mile line. I woul have liked to see that. I did see som work first-hand in the tunnwl itself - my F train or E train would slowly roll by the section of tunnel brilliantly lit by sodium floodlamps, and I saw workers on stepladders, doing various things. Too bad I didn't have a camera on me.
"while evening and weekend work was restricted to the exisiting portions of realinging Queens Blvd."
The job was just a "realignment," and what you're referring to was the vast majority of the work. What you're doing is like describing the iceberg that hit the Titanic by only looking at the part above water.
Take a closer look at this and then we can discuss this further.
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/6thave/
I meant the job was NOT just a realignment.
That was a mega-travesty.
Including you, by the way.
:0)
I'd encourage anyone who doubts the timeline to read Chapter 3 of the FEIS, and enlighten us what steps they'd leave out, or how they'd accomplish them faster.
Read all about it. Harold Harmatz's obituary is in the NY Times today.
--Mark
He also wanted to build a bridge across the Battery that would have obliterated much of Lower Manhattan (it became a tunnel instead). A number of his Brooklyn highway projects were defeated, including one that would have occupied the area that's now Brooklyn Heights promenade.
Robert Moses built the Promenade, along with the BQE beneath it.
That's because his original idea was killed by community opposition. Go visit the Promenade, and there's a plaque there explaining how it came into being. Moses wanted the highway to be at the present street level, which would have run right through the neighborhood.
If it was killed, there would be no BQE. It was modified to appease the community, much like the addition of a 116 St station to Second Avenue. Does the plaque mention that Moses built the Promenade on the condition that it would be publicly accessible, versus the community's intent of restricting it to Heights residents only?
Those who love to vilify Moses also tend to overlook his establishment of over 20,000 acres of parkland and construction of 265 playgrounds.
Moses prevented NYC from adding two transit tracks to the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, forever dooming Staten Island to being the NYC borough without any direct rail access to any other NYC borough.
To see the real impact of a Moses project, look at the Bronx neighborhoods leveled to make room for the Cross Bronx Expressway. My wife lived at Walton Ave. and 174th, adjacent to where the X-Bronx goes under the Concourse and the D train. The construction blasting and pedestrian detours, besides the forced relocations of hundreds of apartment dwellers who were uprooted, irreperably damaged a stable working class neighborhood. To this day, she say that the Cross Bronx was the beginning of the end of the neighborhood she knew as a young girl.
He also vetoed leaving space for future rail transit on a number of highways, such as the Van Wyck. Given that he was obliterating the neighborhood anyway, making the highway an extra 25 wide would have made no difference, and the trains could then have been added quite easily later on.
So it isn't merely the case that he preferred highway projects to transit projects. Even in his highway projects, he did everything to ensure that no train could ever run over his right-of-way.
To this day, she say that the Cross Bronx was the beginning of the end of the neighborhood she knew as a young girl.
Less famously, I think the BQE did much the same thing. You look at the buildings on either side of that highway, and try to imagine what those neighborhoods were before a deep gash was ripped through the middle of them.
And with regard to the BQE I assume you're talking about the stretch from the Kosciuszko Bridge to Tillary Street as it slices through Greenpoint, Williamsburg, and the Navy Yard area.
I, for one, do not overlook these accomplishments. However, you cannot entirely rehabilitate the reputation of a very sadly misguided individual, by showing that he also did good things. It's not for nothing that, in New York, the phrase "Robert Moses era" has nothing but the most terrible associations.
It has also been pointed out that Moses's style evolved. It's hard to believe that the same man who built the beautiful parkways on Long Island also built the Cross-Bronx Expressway, which made no pretense of fitting into the community. Comparatively affluent residents of some Brooklyn communities were powerful enough to stop him; residents of the Bronx were not.
When you read any of the environmental impact statements on the MTA website (SAS, South Ferry), you find an obsession with avoiding even relatively minor disruptions to the community (e.g., the loss of a few trees). This is what Robert Moses hath wrought. Moses obliterated neighborhoods, and said, "If you want to make an omelette, you have to break a few eggs." Break them he did.
And this was the same man who made the overpass clearance on the LI parkways so low that it would not accomodate buses, restricting the access to the public who could not afford cars?
This is a wonderful thing. The Long Island Parkways are much more pleasant to drive on than the LIE.
When the researchers at TNO Human Factors in Soesterberg played recordings of maglev and normal trains that mimicked the sound levels in houses near railway lines, study participants rated the maglev noise as more disturbing than standard intercity trains, Nature Science Update reported on April 19.
Quoting the Dutch publication, United Press International wrote, “Strong magnetic fields suspend maglev trains a few inches above their tracks, while electromagnetic forces between train and track propel them.
The reduced friction allows maglevs to run at about twice the speed of current intercity trains. Prototype maglev trains have been tested in Japan, Germany and China.
The first commercial line, built by German company Transrapid, opened between Shanghai, China, and the city’s Pudong Airport in 2003, and has clocked a record speed of more than 300 miles per hour. In the U.S., projects are planned for Pittsburgh and Baltimore.
At high speeds, however, the maglev sound is similar to that of some aircraft, and study subjects considered maglev noise worse than intercity trains. Many said the maglev noise made them feel insecure, some found it startling, and disliked the occasional shrill sound the maglevs produced.
from:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05032004.shtml#Maglev
Mark
Funny how the source of the noise is not described in the article, nor the decibel level. If it is air friction, would not better aerodynamics eliminate the noise? Surprised that DF would publish such an anecdotal article with little to no evidence.
On Friday, I got myself a new digital camera at J&R and started taking pictures. Of course, I've put them up on the Web.
Click on the HBLR car to enter.
What are the specs of your new camera and what do you recommend for buying one (as I will hopefully in the next month or two) J & R as you have or B & H (I hear those radio ads all the time on 1010 WINS).
Being that I've never been to B&H, I wouldn't aw which is better, but J&R is easier to get to by subway. Just take the 4 or 5 to Fulton Street.
By the way, is it possible for you to get a photo of the new tilework at Roosevelt Avenue? There's one spot where you can get a really nice photo of the old "ROOSEVELT" tile with the new "ROOSEVELT" tile next to one another.
Most people don't like them, but I do. It's a nice modern look for the IND!
The tiles may have the wrong font, but I'm growing used to them now.
Thanks to 9346 for the shot. =)
An alternative transportation commission held a little competition, or test if you will. Between a natural gas powered car, the subway and a cyclist, who would be the quickest between Junior's and Columbus Circle?
The winner was the cyclist.
Now where is the link to this story? And did all three modes of transportation depart at the same time? or were the trip times measured purely in terms of departure and arrival?
It was on TV, didn't see it on the site. Good question, one I hadn't thought of and assumed (as will many people) that it started at the same time.
And I do agree if he didn't stop for red lights, he'd be cheating. However in NYC I believe he did, or he wouldn't have arrived at Columbus Circle alive. :)
The subway ride is 30 to 40 minutes, depending on connections.
Remember that, with stops, 15 miles per hour is pretty good for a local train. You need to add walks, waits, and transfers to that.
The ride home? It took an hour. Much tougher going UP the Park Slope.
If you shed some pounds and use a more efficient bike, you'll probably be able to shave off 10 to 15 minutes.
The subway ride is 30 to 40 minutes, depending on connections.
One benefit for the bicycle is that travel time will be nearly constant day after day.
--Mark
Mark
They don't quite work with business attire either. You arrive at work sweaty.
I actually wrote up a business plan to solve this problem while at City Planning. It was 12 years ago, when our first child was born, all available time disappeared, and jogging five times per week ended. Which is to say, 30 pound lower than today (though today I am 40 below the peak).
I realized I needed a way to get exercise without time. Space is also at a premium in New York. So I conceived of a "health club" in Lower Manhattan which would provide a cedar closet for all of one's business attire, bicycle storage, shower and towel, and a health-conscious breakfast spot. The idea is that one would bike in, THEN shave and shower and put on a suit, then walk to work. On the way home, the suit would be dropped off, and the bicycle clothes put back on.
As I conceived it, the base fee (clothes and bike storage, shower, towel) would be equal to buying tokens for travel to work (net cost zero). The business could also make money from the food, and from dry cleaning and laundry (no need to bring the suits and shirts home).
Anyway, I found out that such a business would have zoning problems (don't ask) and (if the law were followed) would require six months to a year before lease signing before construction could even begin. That pretty much killed off a start up. With business casual, I'm not sure the suit issue is as important, at least not on Friday.
Back in the 70's and early 80's, showers were available at Grand Central for "long distance" travellers. Bike parking for the day was handled by "checking" it at the parcel room.
Sounds like a good idea, until I remember what the city was like and wonder if I would have been willing to take a shower in Grand Central at the time. Going to the bathroom was bad enough.
Back in the early '80s, GCT was a hell-hole, particularly the bathrooms. Taking a shower there would have been a non-starter for anybody who actually held a job.
BTW: Where were the showers? I only recall the bathrooms at the south-west section of the building, accessible from the front waiting room. IIRC, all the stalls had the doors removed to discourage illicit activity from taking place in them. Actually using the stalls for their intended purpose was an experience best avoided like the plague. They were used only in the case of dire emergency.
Anyway, in the bathrooms I recall, I don't remember any showers. Where were they?
Finally, as for the idea of a place to stash your clothes & take a shower every day after biking, isn't that what is offered by a heath club?
Health clubs have more facilities for exercising within them, and less for storing clothes and bicycles, than what I envisioned.
Mark
The winner was the cyclist.<<<<
They hold this race each year during Bike Week. The motorist always loses because they get stuck going over the bridge during rush hour. Driving thorugh cross town traffic alone can take 20 minutes! What suprised me was the fact that the subway rider also lost the race. The 4 train travels at about 12 - 15 miles per hour on the elevated portion outside of Manhattan. The race starts in Brooklyn during rush hour so it can drop times to under 10 miles per hour. As you can imagine, a good bicycle can reach 15 or 25 miles. I can keep up with the subway on the elevated portion on my bicycle and it's not hard at all. I just don't do it because of the noise!
As for cheating, who says the motorist doesn't cheat? The average motorist will break some kind of traffic violation every 20 minutes!
You forgot to mention the time spent waiting for the train and then if somone holds the door or there traffic ahead it could take much longer. Then you have to count the time spent getting into and out of the subway itself. From start to finish, it would probably take a good 35 to 45 minutes easily.
Couldn't there be traffic that would impede the cyclist? Couldn't it rain? Couldn't the cyclist be hit by a truck?
I wasn't trying to imply that the bicycle isn't an effective means of transportation -- just that some Bike Week PR stunt isn't really the best way of measuring it.
Look at it this way. If your 100 of your average SubTalkers hopped on bicycles in front of Junior's one afternoon, what would be the average time that it took for them to get to Columbus Circle. (I know, you have to correct for people who just go inside to eat cheesecake and also those who get distracted and start watching trains go over the Manhattan Bridge).
CG
Here's a link to the calendar of events for Bike Month
http://www.transalt.org/calendar/bikemonthweek2.html
I've been pondering the best bike route. I have two possibilities:
1. Junior's --> Brooklyn Bridge --> Chambers Street --> Hudson Street --> 8th Ave --> Columbus Circle
The lights on Hudson Street are timed pretty nicely.
2. Junior's --> Brooklyn Bridge --> Chambers Street --> Hudson River Bike Path --> Columbus Circle
The advantage here is there is a dedicated bike path. There are stop signs and traffic lights affecting the path, but there is no worry about traffic or having doors opened in your face. You would have to pay back a couple of avenues when you get up to 59th Street.
Transportation Alternatives does have the results on their website.
http://www.transalt.org/press/releases/040503bikemonth3.html
I called TA and asked for details of the bike route, but the man who answered didn't know. This year the rider was Paul S. White, the Executive Director of TA. Interestingly, Gene Russianoff, Senior Attorney for the Straphanger's Campaign, did the subway part of the race.
In the previous two years the winner was Sarah Oakes, who rides to work from Williamsburgh.
For an interesting article about Ms. Oakes
http://www.transalt.org/press/magazine/032Spring/23commuter.html
Hmmm... did you just thank yourself?...
Anyway thanks for the info. Fox just gave a quick story and not much detail.
I've been pondering the best bike route. I have two possibilities:
1. Junior's --> Brooklyn Bridge --> Chambers Street --> Hudson Street --> 8th Ave --> Columbus Circle
The lights on Hudson Street are timed pretty nicely.
2. Junior's --> Brooklyn Bridge --> Chambers Street --> Hudson River Bike Path --> Columbus Circle
The advantage here is there is a dedicated bike path. There are stop signs and traffic lights affecting the path, but there is no worry about traffic or having doors opened in your face. You would have to pay back a couple of avenues when you get up to 59th Street.
Toro-papa replied:
"The Manhattan Bridge is much more direct than the Brooklyn Bridge."
I would agree. I use the Manhattan Bridge more often on the bike, because it is not crowded and gives more of a gritty look at Brooklyn & Manhattan.
Using the Manhattan Bridge would be better as it does leave you off further north at Canal & Bowery. I didn't pick it, because the traffic on Canal is heavy with a lot of truck traffic. But thinking about it now, you could ride up a block or two on the Bowery and ride Hester or Broome over to the West Side. Or I suppose you could zip up Bowery into 3rd and go from there.
I put up a post at the Transportation Alternatives Message Board asking for the route that Paul White took.
I've been watching the progress on the bike path on the other side of the Manhattan Bridge. They have a lot of the fencing up. They are still working on the Manhattan ramp leading off the bridge, which looks like it is new construction. I'd really like to be the first official rider over the new path.
I really like the Manhattan Bridge bike path. Some people complained about the protective fencing being obtrusive, but I feel quite secure and not uncomfortable with being so high up in the air.
Thanks to HeyPaul for the TA-SubTalk follow-up.
(Straphangers Followup: http://www.straphangers.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=000106
When the N bullet on the interior rollsign is placed upside down, an upside down W or Diamond W will show on the outside.
On the R-68/68a, an upside down Diamond Q will show on the exterior.
All 8 (It was an R-68a) rollsigns that went by had an upside down Diamond Q. I wonder if anyone got in trouble for that. They were half right at least.
Not very difficult if you have been at this station, but if you haven't, the answer may surprise you.
That IS Queens Plaza with a new balcony overlooking the platform underneath.
Throw another one..
Chuck
Alternatively, a membership application can be printed from the West Jersey Chapter website and mailed to the Chapter's post office box.
If anyone reading this and is interested in old train photographs, go to the West Jersey Chapter website and click on "Trebino Collection".
LOL!
I payed my fare and boarded a PATH train; my first time on PATH since 5 years ago. The train filled up, but I was lucky enough to get a seat. The train started out slow into Harrison, but afterwards picked up a damn lot of speed! I couldn't believe how fast that train went; it seemed like it was going to flip over (keep in mind I'm from Philly). Also, how fast does that train get to?
A little while later, we arrived at Journal Sq. and the train virtually emptied out. A few minutes later we arrived at WTC. It was amazing, seeing the area so built up again! I watched out the window onto the WTC site, which was a bit sad. Leaving the train, one immediately notices how this is a temporary station. I was impressed with it, however, and I took some time to look around and explore the station, before buying a fare card for my ride home.
I made my way into the "E" train WTC station, and used the Metrocard I'd had from last time (it had $2 left). The train pulled up and I boarded. The train skipped Sping St. (Anybody know why?), which got me confused, but made all other stops. The train wasn't too full at all. Leaving at 7th Av., the "D" train I was boarding pulled up just across the platform. I boarded the crowded train and held onto a pole. I was looking forward to the long express run between 59th and 125th, which I had never encountered. After 59th St., we passed through 72nd St., and from that point I could tell the train wasn't going to speed up-- how disappointing! The train was smooth but slow; the 37 mph speed on this stretch is pretty rediculous, seeing how fast trains could possibly hit in this 3 mile straigtaway. After passing through 110th St., the train moved almost at a standstill to 125th. The train was also very slow from 125th to 135th, and 135th to 155th. The ride between 155th and 161st was rather fast, though.
I went out to the stadium-- great game! One of the best I've ever experienced. 9 innings, 2 hot dogs, and 2 beers later, I was ready to continue the rail part of my trip. I waited for the stadium to clear for about 20 minutes, and then walked outside and all the way back around to River Av. to the 4 train station. The station was really busy; the lines were down the stairs!! I didn't want to wait, so I went down into the subway and bought a new Metrocard. I went through the underground turnstiles and used the long escalator back up to the el station where the 4 was. As I went up to the platform, I had just missed the train! I waited about 10 minutes, when a nice, clean, empty R-142 slowly pulled into the station. I got a seat at the end of the fifth car-- no railfan window for me this time :(. The train filled up by 149th, and right after 149th, the operator announced that "due to construction, the 4 train would be running local to Brooklyn Bridge, and there was no 5 train service".) Oh well. It was interesting to hear the recordings say "This is a Brooklyn Bridge Bound 4 Local Train". I recorded it onto my cellphone. The train was standing room only by 125th, but I was lucky to have a seat at the end of the car. The ride was slow, but I enjoyed it! Also, due to electrical construction, the lights in the train went out in 3 places: between 125th and 116th St., between 86th and 77th St., and between 42nd and 33rd St. The train began emptying out at 42nd St., and by the time we got to Astor Pl. there were seats available again. I decided to get off the train at Canal, where I walked down 2 platforms to get to the J platform. I took the J train downtown one stop to Chambers, where I made a cross platform transfer to an already waiting "J-Shuttle" train, which was running back and fourth from Chambers to Court St. in Brooklyn. I took the train one stop to Fulton, where I got off.
I ate dinner at the seaport, and then was ready to move on to Hoboken. When I got back to the WTC station, only one track was opened. It turned out that the only train running to WTC last night was the Newark train, and that all Hoboken bound passengers had to transfer at Grove St. I transfered to a Hoboken bound train at Grove St., which took me to Hoboken in a short amount of time. Once I got to Hoboken, it was getting dark out, and the town was busy. Instead of going back to the NJT terminal as I had planned, I headed for the HBLR-- I had never ridden it before.
I bought my ticket and boarded a train a little after 8:30. I rode for about 10 minutes to Exchange Pl. I was very impressed with the HBLR-- it was very smooth and swift, and the stations were modern light rail stations, yet not overdone as in some cities. Getting back to Exchange Pl., I took a ride down a loooong escalator to a mezzanine level, where I went back to the PATH platform-- I had just missed a train. About 15 minutes later, I boarded a Newark Bound train, and arrived at Newark about 15 min. later. The ride once again, between Grove St. and Journal Sq. and between Journal Sq. and Harrison was extremely fast-moving.
All and all, it was a good day!
Wrong.J's were running to Prospect Park as has been the practice the last 2 times this GO occured.
Da Hui
If you are from Philly then you should be used to the wonderfully high speeds of the BSS, MFL, PATCO, and Norristown High Speed Line. Of those four, only the Market Frankford line trains probably don't go faster than PATH's top speed.
Also, how fast does that train get to?
Using my handheld GPS device, I've clocked a PATH train doing 62.3MPH!
Thanks for posting your report. I'm glad you had a good time.
-The BSS local trains (never ridden an express) are slow as hell!
-PATCO is pretty fast in some places, but stations are pretty frequent, so PATH seemed faster
-Only once have I ridden the Norristown High Speed Line, but don't remember much about it.
-The MFL is extremely slow in most places, except for the area between 15th and 30th, in which I think trains get up to (50?).
Obviously it is the express trains that are fast. The express trains can go over 60 MPH.
-PATCO is pretty fast in some places, but stations are pretty frequent, so PATH seemed faster
While PATH is only fast on one stretch, PATCO is fast the whole time it is above ground. It goes over 60 MPH between stations.
-Only once have I ridden the Norristown High Speed Line, but don't remember much about it.
This line routinely reaches speeds over 60 MPH.
-The MFL is extremely slow in most places, except for the area between 15th and 30th, in which I think trains get up to (50?).
Jersey Mike can better address this, but yes, there is one particularly fast underground section in the 50 MPH range and some fast above ground sections that I think come close to or over 50 MPH. Additionally, between stations these cars reach higher speeds than NYC Subway cars, and probably equal to PATH cars.
Catenary down explained ...
Squirrel on wires delays trains
NEW HAVEN, Conn. - A squirrel running along Metro-North Railroad's
overhead wires yesterday morning caused delays of up to an hour for
thousands of New Haven Line rail commuters, according to the
Stamford Advocate.
Shortly before 7:50 a.m., a squirrel on the wires above the New
York-bound local track in New Rochelle, N.Y. caused an insulator to
explode, killing the animal and breaking a wire in half, according to
Marjorie Anders, a Metro-North spokeswoman.
A 7:24 a.m. semi-express, originating from Stamford and scheduled to
arrive at Grand Central Terminal at 8:22 a.m., hit the broken,
low-hanging wire and damaged three pantagraphs.
Wires then fell onto a nearby track, and with another track under
construction, "we were left with only one track in service for the
morning rush," Anders said.
Twenty-four peak-hour southbound trains were delayed about 20
minutes, and 12 northbound trains were delayed up to an hour. There
were also scattered delays along the New Haven Line until all repairs
were completed at 2:45 p.m.
The disabled train was towed to the Stamford rail yard.
(This item appeared in the Stamford Advocate May 2, 2004)
Did PETA hold a funeral for Rocky ? That would keep them busy until the next protest for the unethical treatment of fruit flies appears on the news.
Bill "Newkirk"
...Three days later...
...long, long, long, long, long, long lost cousin, Dimbulb! ROFLMAO.................
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Host : Villains NEVER get top billing !
Boris (dismayed ) Oh !
Host : So tune in next week to Rocky and his Fiends ... I mean, Friends !
This off-topic public disservice announcement comes to you courtesy of Baby Boomer Terminal TV Addiction and Kibitzing !
Don't make it worse; it's Badunov !
Chuck Greene
Your pal,
Fred G
I'll be going home on Monday.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Thanks for any answers and I look forward to seeing everyone there (provided I do go of course).
I'm writing an article for Antique Trader on the collectibility of NYC Subway Stuff - anything from tokens and roll-signs to station signs and subway car builder plates. Thus I'm going out on a limb for some useable, positive quotes from collectors - What you like, general values, what is popular, what is really odd-ball. I will eventually need your real name and location.
Thanks
George Cuhaj, Iola WI.
My dad was an 'A' man at 207th, 1967-93.
Not exactly what I was looking for. Actually, if you would go to the New York Public Library Exhibit at the Science and Industry Branch on 34th and Madison, It is items from my father's and now my collection of Subway Stuff which makes up all of the non-book, three-dimentional items in the display (except for the Transit Museum's ticket chopper). I'm not out to always buy stuff cheep, and yes, I do follow the internet auctions. And soon I'll have a very nice article posted by David on the subway site, which even you may enjoy, as it will be FREE!
George
The slide lecture at the Library exhibit was April 22, however a second may be sceduled for October when I visit NYC again.
George
Actually, I'm not interested in selling stuff here. What I wanted to get a feel for is what folks find collectible. Yes, I am quite familiar with ebay, but does anyone try to put together a set of brass builder's plates, or porcelain car numbers?
George
These days most people are on e-bay. The NY Division use to have an annual auction during their October meetings.
Phil Hom
I have been friends with Howie and Suzane Samelson since the 70s also, and was also in their 33rd Street location. Sadly they closed the store long ago, however remain interested in "stuff"
George
I recently started collecting the 4X4 tiles put out by Transit Tiles that are sold at the museum shop. I realize that they are not old or original, but they are pretty.
I'm also the nut who put together an R9 cab. Although I've been offered $450,000 by an enthusiast from the Far East, I'm planning on using the cab for my sarcophagus. I'm working on leasing about 4 square feet of floor space at the new Stillwell Terminal when I'm dead, where the sarcophagus will be in a vertical position. I will be on view sort of like a gypsy fortune teller, except instead of telling fortunes, for a quarter I will give travel directions to any point in New York City. It will be similar to the Directomat of the mid 50's, of which I will have more to say tomorrow.
Yes, eBay and other internet auctions is certainly a guage of what is popular, and what is being made available. I have been both a buyer and seller on eBay, but not always in the Subway arena. I do monitor it, though.
Another tact I was trying to get a hold of is what is still available from from some of those large salvage yards, like United Homewreckers and such? Where have all those fine porcelain signs gone when the TA switches to the Helvetica typeface in the 80s? Where are collectors currenty getting their R-9 number signs or builder's plates or roll signs from? Has eBay become nearly the only source? Dores the ERA hold fall auctions anymore?
http://community.webtv.net/hey-paul/NewYorkerMagazine
I'm hoping to put together a whole portfolio, so that I can apply for a job at TransitTransit. Doing the reporting is relatively easy, but I'm having a hard time keeping a crap eating grin on my face all the time.
"This is heypaul for TransitTransit."
Maybe I'll see ya on TV.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
If I can get a meeting with the head honchos at TT, I will propose a "Subtalker of the Month" feature that I will personally produce. Using extreme close-ups and editing the railfan's remarks, I intend to crucify about half of the regular posters here.
You're being sarcastic, right?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Which half?
Don't get discouraged... they're just REALLY TRULY MADLY
focusing on their next --FOOD-- related segment.
Also, for some odd reason, all the Rockaways stations (including Grant, 80, 88, Rockaway Blvd, Aqueduct, and Howard Beach) are shown as "express" stations (filled-in circle), when they should be "express-and-local" stations (hollow circle). Finally, the R to 179th is mistakenly shown as a circle instead of a diamond (I read the service guide, ...Local; rush hours, extended to 179 St). The R is shown correctly on the Individual Route Maps on the back, but the <7> is still shown as bypassing 61 St-Woodside.
That is not an error. For a time after 7 express service was restored after rehab work on the 7 line, the 7 express did bypass 61st. After customer opposition, the stop was restored.
I would imagine (and I'm GUESSING HERE) that modern trains will have the equivalent of electric hold unless in full release - expecting that a solenoid would hold the valve until the indication fairy smiles. And unlike the oldies, you couldn't possibly actually take power without indication without going into "bypass" ... since a few people have already mentioned "rollback" I'm guessing that a full release would allow the train to roll, but not take power.
I recall hearing recently that on SOME of the newer car classes (don't remember which one, but suspect it's the 142's) if you wrap it without indication, there's a penalty of some sort that will prevent taking power at a later time or have some difficulty doing so. Thus I suspect this might be R68's of which I know *nothing* ... hope this reply suffices for the others who have responded, I'm getting close to my 30 post penalty application. :)
Slant 40's.
The guys that hold no brakes are scary enough.
The operator is relying on the Master Door Relay or Power Interlock Relay (depending on car class) to keep the train from taking power. While both are maintained and reliable, a single-point failure could cause the train to move. In addition, an activated Side Door Bypass will also allow the train to take power.
Even if the Door Relay or PIR keep the train from taking power, there's only enertia and friction keeping the train from rolling.
I say that only based on the presence of door enablers and such and so many other "idiot-proofing" designs in the newer cars that didn't exist on the road antiques. That's why I had expected that there might have been some form of lockout to prevent rollbacks due to release that would have prevented cylinder venting in a manner similar to propulsion lockouts. Since you were around when the arnines were still rolling somewhat, that electric hold was a NIFTY little feature. I'm surprised to not see an equivalent. Then again, we had to be careful not to wrap it with the doors still open. Heh.
I remember hearing a story about a train taking off by itself a few years ago too, that was another reason I wasn't sure if there was such a device - either original or retrofit ...
Notice though how coyly I'm avoiding the "wrap the knuckles instead of the controller" issue here. Primarily because I know why the operator would have tried to do that in order to try to recover some time. On the arnines, that electric hold did what they're trying to cheat here - you had your release, you had your pressure rebuild, once you came off the electic hold, it was a simple vent of the cylinders and GO ... given the way things apparently work these days, there seems to be a time penalty before you roll that didn't exist way back when ... but my only reason in throwing this out in the first place was merely for the mental exercise, a bit more familiarity as to the game these days and a diversion from so MUCH off topic. Moo. (grin)
I suspect one reason this was never done was the problem of
"flickering indication". Imagine the excitement if the brakes
came on every time indication dropped out.
Grab the chopper signal off the propulsky, run it through a rectifier into a 100 MF electrolytic as a holdoff. TA-daaa! If she's moving, the flickerfairy will be ignored until she stops rolling. Ah well, blind trips go back in I guess. (sorry, the DEVIL made me type that)
But basically, if there was a means to determine if the wheels are turning, that could be an acceptable "lockout" in the event of the indication fairy having a case of agita. However, if it isn't a practical modification then looks like the TSS' will be hitting the road watching for "improper operation" ... it's sad actually. For all the things that can kill you and your trainload, one would think that just "holding" until indication would be sufficient. Alas, those not IN operations don't realize all the pressure to maintain that schedule without regard to reality. And sadly, those who run the trains have to deal with it any way they can. :(
Since we now know that it was a 40, and I had some handle time on those way back when, I remember them being a bit slow on the blowdown (of course, SINCE then, there were GOH's so what I know is probably wrong, but I'll bet it's gotten WORSE since the original design) and that was a good 3-5 seconds worth of "additional rot" at each stop. Also in the old days, you could "speed" in selected spots and recover a couple of minutes over a run if you were victim to "slow brakes" or other things that would cumulatively get you yelled at when you got to the terminal.
Because of "electric hold," I had a chance to win and we were encouraged to USE it. Now it's gone. But even then, as the detends on the brake stand wore out (many ME-23's had no "feelable" detents on the stand - 1689 at Branford has this problem) you'd overshoot and the damned magnet valves would blow the air out of the cylinders and you'd start to roll and have to pull a service to stop the rollback and then feel your way back to the "click."
But when you're late, you'll tend to cheat any way you can to try to trim that "tardiness" if you can. I did, but I did it in hard braking further up the railroad and raising blue smoke and going a bit over the limit where I could on straight rail where I could rather than take chances of getting banged in. :)
In the case of SMEE, moving the handle to full release energizes
the RELEASE magnet valves which causes the straight air pipe to be
vented locally at each pneumatic operating unit. The SAP pressure
is relayed to/from the cylinders by the "J" relay valve.
I don't have a "Code of Tests" book handy, but my recollection is
that the spec for release of a UE-5 is 2-3 seconds from full
cylinder pressure. I don't think SMEE is any slower to release.
I'm DYING to see an arnine manual one of these days - the curiosity factor just keeps increasing every time you detail out how that all worked ...
Xeroxing treasured material would be a wonderful way for the owner to make it available to others.
What I *can* tell you though is that when I had a breakdown on the rails, I was met by an RCI and an RCI in training, and the broke out a loose leaf book, dropped it on the seat and the RCI was showing his student how to trace lines inside the door from drawings (8x11) in the book that the student RCI was carrying. It LOOKED "official" and looked like genuine whale oil mimeo on the paper. When my curiosity got the better of me, I got "the look" (patent STILL pending) from both and stepped off. :)
That's about the best I can offer, but if I ever DO see one, I'd like to make copies for my OWN enjoyment - making an additional shouldn't be any sweat, it's not like terrorists can make any use of technical details for something that no longer exists on TA property, and so obsolete as to exist in anything else on the property. Heh. Last I checked, lightbulb technology existed in Afghanistan as well. (grin)
Unca Dave here managed to at least get a copy of this (Adobe PDF format file, Adobe reader required) ...
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/cars/r1sheet.pdf
There's GOT to be more ...
There are people who do this with cars, too - and end up weariing out the brakes.
On a side note, I thought sure Tuesday that I saw a train roll SB over school with a set of doors partially open. I couldn't get a good look as it was still moving fairly quickly. Maybe the AC was broken and they needed some air. ;) Not knowing how CTAs door circuit works, I do not know how it determines if all the doors are closed. Occaisionally I see trains moving with one or more red door light(s) still on, making the wrapping idea even worse. Gives more gravity to the "Standing passengers: please do not lean against the doors" announcement.
Matt
What is the problem ?
til next time
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I caught the Tuckahoe part of the train.
Like last Monday, when the train arrived from Philly, the day was overcast and it was raining.
Cape May Seashore Lines power placed the train on the CMSL main for Conrail pickup.
arrival of Conrail Shared Assetspower
Conrail engineer
RBBB circus train
RBBB circus train
RBBB circus train
RBBB circus train
RBBB circus train
RBBB circus train
RBBB circus train
Matt
2nd thing--- Q signs are up to coney island. I was at kings hway and the Brighton Beach signs, were changed. (Q) Brighton local to coney island - stillwell av ,. all times , signs were up.Stillwell dones look compltedd for may 23rd . I asked a t.o on the Q at Brighton and she said , its pushed back till june now. Who knows, i hope its the 23rd!!
D to Brighton Beach!!!
Q to Coney Island!!!!!
Now on the next MOD trip, please ditch your #3 line shirt, you are a Brighton line afficinado, show your yellow Q shirt with colors and pride.
As well as the incident you mentiokned, due to a signal problem in Queens the F was seriously delayed and so you had the V running to Kings Highway - usually they're turned at Church Ave.
"Usually when rerouted to Brooklyn the V is turned at Church Avenue."
I dont know if this was posted or on how many knew.
I know its new to me on the different versions except for the city hall one.
It lists all the different Centennial MetroCards with photos.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=699550
25Apr2004 MOD Trip--Pictures taken along the West Side IRT Line
25Apr2004 MOD Trip--207th St. Yard and Vicinity Pictures
Koi
NY1 Exclusive: Officials Consider Two Plans For Direct Rail Link To JFK Airport
MAY 03RD, 2004
NY1 learned Monday that there are now just two options on the table for building a direct rail link between Lower Manhattan and JFK Airport in Queens.
Governor George Pataki is expected to announce later this week that officials are still pursuing plans to dig a new tunnel under the East River, at an estimated cost of $6 billion.
However, officials have not ruled out the possibility of using an existing subway tunnel at Montague Street in Brooklyn, which is currently home to the M and R subway lines. That option would cost only half as much as the plan to dig a new tunnel under the river.
Both plans are basically an extension of the AirTrain, which would run from Jamaica Station in Queens to the Atlantic Terminal in Brooklyn using existing Long Island Rail Road tracks, then continue on into Lower Manhattan.
In addition, NY1 has also learned that plans to use a subway tunnel now home to the A and C lines are no longer being considered.
There is no word yet on how exactly the project would be paid for, though it's expected to rely at least in part on 9/11 rebuilding funds.
It's an ELECTION year (and for our esteemed legislature as well) so photo-ops of "gifts of manna from those who borrow and spend like drunken sailors" is a given. I can't BELIEVE that the Montague rathole is no longer needed for subways. A decision that could ONLY be made up here in Smallbany by a governor who's SO out of it, he doesn't even LIVE in his own damned mansion, and spends more time out of state on junkets than frigging Padre Cuomo. :(
But hey, this is New York ... what's ANOTHER tax hike among friends? :)
The Lexington Av subway switches over from Lex to Park Av south of 42 Street. However, if I recall correctly, the subway is very shallow at that point. There is no mezzanine - the local stations have a stairway from the street that puts you right on the platform.
The LIRR's new tracks would extend to 38th Street as it is. Why not just extend those south, along with two selected Metro-North tracks (a piece of the lower Concourse at GCT would be sacrificed). These could then proceed into a new station in the financial district.
I wish Pataki would focus on accelerating East Side access and the SAS. Find the money to get those built in half the time, finish rebuilding Lower Manhattan Transit facilities, extend PATH and then let's talk about improving subway service to Queens and Brooklyn.
The appetite to invest in transit projects goes in cycles. I hardly need tell SubTalkers how many decades went by without meaningful investment in New York's mass transit infrastructure. The appetite is there now, and we should get these projects funded while we can (IF we can). This cycle won't last forever.
Besides, this project will become part of the SAS, because if a new tunnel is dug, it will almost certainly be the same tunnel the SAS would use to eventually reach Brooklyn.
Why dig a new tunnel into lower manhattan?
There hasn't been any net addition to transit service in Lower Manhattan since early in the 20th century.
IF Bloomberg's plan for the West side is even completed and additional office and retail space is built it could be put to better use. LOWER MANHATTAN is too cramped and crowded already.
Central business districts tend to be cramped and crowded--so is midtown. On the Far West Side, Bloomberg and Doctoroff are betting that a brand new commercial business district can be created where there has never been one, and where the existing infrastructure is very poor. It is far more sensible to invest where there already is a business district (the nation's 3rd largest), albeit where there has been no new service added for about 70 years, than to bet that a brand new one can be created out of nothing.
It would be nice if the commuter rail lines ending in GCT could be extended further south. .... The LIRR's new tracks would extend to 38th Street as it is. Why not just extend those south, along with two selected Metro-North tracks (a piece of the lower Concourse at GCT would be sacrificed). These could then proceed into a new station in the financial district.
This has idea been extensively studied (e.g., the Lower Manhattan Access Study). Tunneling under existing infrastructure is very expensive--just read the SAS FEIS, which is a textbook lesson on all the problems that have to be solved when you tunnel under a built-up area, even at a very deep level. Tunneling under the river is relatively cheap. To do it your way, the cost would be at least double.
Most cities using systems built around Bombardier's AirTrain-like technology (I'm thinking specifically of Vancouver and Kuala Lampur) use bridges rather than tunnels and prefer elevated track rather than underground (although most systems use a mix of both).
Vancouver SkyTrain's bridge to Surrey is visually stunning.
Humph!
What good will that do?
"Yup, theres a bad spot alright! Mark it on the map and we'll send somebody out here some time."
Hello... You want a Trak Repair Machine...
But those suckers will block up the whole line all weekend.
GOs all over the place where those things go.!
Elias
#3 West End Jeff
But you illustrate my original point, just the same.