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The Express freight service was rationalized. The Warrington plan tried to make heavy use of express to cover passenger costs. The problem was that in most cases Amtrak has to like offer super cut rates to win traffic and the rates did not cover all the various costs including passenger irritation. Gunn rationalized the service and cut it from many routes. However, it was not canceled outright as was widely reported. For example train 41/40 the 3 Rivers still carries about 10-25 express and roadrailers per trip. The Capitol Limited has about 5 express box cars per trip.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Your pal,
Fred
Da Hui
Well, maybe those R42 cars might speed things up, because those 68's aren't doing the job up in the Bronx.
W Broadway Local
I go to school and reside during the school year at the Illinois Institute of Technology in Chicago, whose small campus is divided by the CTA Green line, bordered by the Rock Island Metra line, and next to the Red (Dan Ryan) line. Here are two pics taken by the school of the north end of new dormitories (not mine) and a view looking north through "the tube" over our new student center (with the dorms on the immediate left).
My handle is the former name of the current "35-Bronzeville-IIT" Green Line station at the south end of campus.
Robert
The Green line rehab kept most of the original structure (although most stations were replaced). The footings were all replaced and the stucture was renewed. The current renovation on the Douglas part of the Blue Line (http://www.chicago-l.org/operations/lines/DouglasRehab/index.html, go to the bottom of "Douglas History" for some pics) involves replacing most of the structure because it was too bad to fix. :(
They seem to try to save what they can. They are slowly "renewing flange angles" around the system, mostly on the North Side Main. This raised a stink when some workers caught a house on fire by cutting out rivets without hanging up fireproof mats next to the house. Slow work, but basically they have a new span when they are done. It's too bad they bolt the pieces back together. Nothing looks better than a good rivet job.
Matt
Why is the El structure in your photo so wide? Was there once a 3rd track there or something?
Matt
Matt
Could this be for the governance of employees, but then why would it be on a public board?
The Gold Line route would pass through Arcadia, Monrovia, Duarte,
Irwindale, Azusa, Glendora, San Dimas, La Verne, Pomona and
Claremont.
The light rail's inaugural 13.7- mile stretch, from Union Station in
Los Angeles to Sierra Madre Villa Avenue in Pasadena, opened in July.
Construction will soon begin on a 6-mile second leg of the Gold Line,
from Union Station to Atlantic and Pomona boulevards in East Los
Angeles.
The report examines the proposed Montclair route "mile by mile,' said
Habib Balian, interim CEO of the Gold Line Construction Authority.
Sites have been picked for 12 train stations, one in each city plus
an additional stop near the proposed Monrovia Nursery development in
Azusa, a 500- acre property on which as many as 1,250 houses and
condominiums may be built. Azusa voters will decide that matter in a
city special election Tuesday.
Like the Pasadena Gold Line, the light rail will travel to Montclair
along a Burlington Northern Santa Fe right-of-way but parts of these
tracks are still periodically used by freight trains.
As such, the construction authority will have to figure out how to
build a passenger system while still accommodating the freight
traffic. Along some stretches, that could mean adding a third track
for the freights, or working out a shared use of the tracks possibly
during the Gold Line's non-peak hours, Balian said.
The width, height and wheel base of freight trains would fit on light
rail tracks and would clear the overhead electrical wires that power
the Gold Line trains, he said.
Much of the Montclair route will run at ground level, as compared to
the construction challenges of the Pasadena Gold Line: its long
elevated portion through Chinatown, its "street- running' stretch
down the middle of narrow Marmion Way in Highland Park, and its
underground sections below Highland Park and Old Pasadena, Balian
noted.
"In Pasadena, we were tunneling beneath 100-year-old, unreinforced
brick buildings,' Balian said. Along the Montclair route, much of the
builders' focus will be on the roughly 140 street-level rail
crossings and the assorted railroad bridges that span flood control
channels, the Foothill (210) Freeway, the San Gabriel River and
assorted streets.
"Those would all have to be rebuilt or expanded' to make room for a
second or possibly third set of railroad tracks, Balian said.
"This is really a much simpler route. It's actually quite ideal for
light rail, in its location, intersections and station (sites),'
Balian said.
Unlike the Pasadena Gold Line, the Montclair extension would have
passenger parking at all of its stations, Balian said.
The environmental impact report must take into account four options
for the corridor: that nothing would be built; that only bus system
and surface street improvements such as traffic signal
synchronization would be implemented along the route; and that the
light rail would be built only to Irwindale; or that the passenger
train route be constructed all the way to Montclair.
All 12 cities along the route have officially backed that fourth
option as their "preferred alternative.' The construction authority's
board of directors also will have to approve the environmental impact
report before the agency could seek federal government certification
and funding.
Meanwhile, Balian said lessons learned from planning, designing and
building the Pasadena Gold Line will be put to use in the Montclair
project.
Residents of Pasadena and Mount Washington fought the construction
authority, demanding unsuccessfully that several rail crossings be
put underground. South Pasadena recently negotiated a settlement with
the construction authority and the MTA, operators of the Gold Line,
over problems related to vibrations and train noise from bells, horns
and the screech of steel train wheels on steel tracks.
With its focus shifting east, the construction authority will soon
move its headquarters as well. In June, the agency will leave its
Fair Oaks Avenue offices in South Pasadena and relocate to Huntington
Drive in Monrovia.
The draft environmental impact report, which is several hundred pages
long, is available online at www.metrogoldline.org
THE GOLD LINE SHOULD LINK WITH THE BLUE LINE .......DAMNIT !
So if anyone is intrested in helping please email me.
Andy
http://community.webshots.com/user/lstmysock11
Are runs are Monday through Friday. There are no scheduled MU trips on the weekends.
All trains have GCT as there southern terminal.
HUDSON LINE Southbound
# 720 Lv Scraborough 716AM
# 722 Lv Croton-Harmon 719AM
# 726 Lv Irvington 741AM
HARLEM LINE Southbound
# 512 Lv North White Plains 648AM
# 516 Lv North White Plains 705AM
# 522 Lv North White Plains 733AM
# 528 Lv North Withe Plains 757AM\\
HUDSON LINE Northbound
# 755 Lv GCT 517PM to Croton Harmon
# 763 Lv GCT 554PM to Croton-Harmon
HARLEM LINE Northbound
# 515 Lv GCT 744AM to North White Plains
# 359 Lv GCT 504PM to Crestwood
# 569 Lv GCT 610PM to North White Plains
# 573 Lv GCT 635PM to North White Plains
# 577 Lv GCT 702PM to North White Plains
The best of these runs if you are based in NY is # 515 which leaves GCT at 744AM and stops only at 125 Street and White Plains. Since it runs against the current of traffic its not overly crowded and has a nice express run.
The current six car M-7 set runs as follows
# 718 Lv Tarrytown 712AM
# 771 Lv GCT 617PM for Tarrytown
The M-7 tainsets protects a run formerly covered by the M-3's.
Its always possibe that on any given day there may be an equiptment substitution.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Zach
D to Brighton Beach!!
50 posts to go!
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Part of subtalk history
The (4 ) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Chuck Greene
It really doesn't matter who posts with that certain thread number - It's irrelevant and silly, So let's get back to trains...Just because you or anyone else posted at that certain mark doesn't make it history what so ever - It's called post whoring.
Acela
Chuck Greene
For not being able to read and for disrespecting the wishes of our moat gracious webmaster.
I've learned my lesson, irrelevant posts aren't taken lightly at all
so I won't make posts like this ever again. Thats a promise. I never hoped that my post would turn out this way when I was making it.
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Find someplace else to play your childish games. Your crap isn't worth keeping on Dave's servers.
OooO!@O I'm goNNA geT poSt # 7000000000000!!!1111
No, ME!
Nah, I am.
No, MEeeee!
YeeaahhH!!!! We're ReeeEEEEaaaAAAAlll railFans!
David
I hope that was a rhetorical questions because the answer seems fairly obvious to me. :)
Thanks for pointing out another example of why we need a moderated forum.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Keep up the great work!
Your pictures are over 300 KB in size, which is far too big for a website. It takes too long for them to down load, and it uses up band width. Yes, I know Tripod is a free site, but they will cut you off for a while if you use too much band width.
Photos need not be more than 50 or 60 KB tops.
So look at your photo properties. There is no need to exceed 96 pixels per inch on any web page, afterall an 800 pixel monitor displays 72 pixels per inch, and a 1024 pixel monitor displays 96 pixels per inch.
So make the pixel size smaller.
Also, when you save a .jpg it gives you the option of what quality to use, I use a minimum quality size (different applications will have different numbers but all do somewhat the same thing.)
So dumb them down a little bit too.
I know, some people will bitch at me saying that they want to download a better quality picture for some purpose.
Tell 'em: Oh Yeah, well not on my dime, but write to me and I'll send you a better copy.
pixels = picture elements per inch (as they appear on your computer monitor). So if you save a photo at 600 pixels (some cameras will do this~ Excellent quality~ for your PRINTER!) but on the screen that one inch will take up most of the screen!
dots per inch = a printer's designation (look at a halftone photo in your newspaper) This is what you color printer thinks in. To print something, yes, push the pixels up and also save at a better quality.
Still, I'd not push the pixels up above 300 unless you have a humongous computer with lots of memory and disk space.
As far as your computer application is concerned they are the same thing: but watch what they are trying to tell you in the monitor size vs the print size.
Elias
Pentagon Station...
Opening: 7/1/1977
Location: Alongside I-395, beneath the southeast side of the Pentagon itself, Arlington County, VA
Alignment: Underground
Platfrom: Side/Island. Read below.
Ceiling: Waffle
Routes: Blue/Yellow
Additional features: Bellmouth located in the tunnel outbound of the station, hinting at the location of the start of a long-ago proposed route along Columbia Pike in Arlington. While the route has obviouly never been implemented, the spur provision was built in anyway... maybe WMATA is just biding their time... Also features blue and yellow illuminated signage over the tube at the inbound end of the station to announce which line is arriving. Yellow for Mt Vernon Sq-7th St trains, and Blue for Addison Road. The only location of such a sign at the inbound end of a station. The outbound side is lower than the inbound, with an extensively high ceiling vault (the ceiling vaults both sides of the island... read below.
Okay, enough mystery. Pentagon has side platforms, but not the traditional type of sidewall... the entrance (which is from the Metrobus loading island) leads to a mezzanine which drops you on the inbound platform. You'd initially think the station to be a single-track affair, but look again... the outbound track is passed over as you walk to the inbound, and passengers must take the stairs from the inbound platform to get to the outbound. This is done because the Blue and Yellow lines split north of the station, and WMATA apparently has a Pennsylvania Railroad complex... the split is a flying junction (inbound Blue flies over oubound Yellow; the diverge/merge occurs on separate levels) made to prevent at-grade crossings, something Pennsy was notorious for (just look at 52nd Street Junction in West philadelphia). The tracks realign their grade south of the station (Pentagon City being the next stop, and having sidewall platforms AND a crossover nearby) to run evenly. Looking across the tracks from an outbound train, you'll see the wall that is actually the support of the inbound platform, thus giving the stop a side platform look with doors opening on the left. It even confused me the first time I went through, and when I heard trains passing that I didn't see, I got REALLY confused until I went upstairs and saw the other track... The ceiling is standard height for the inbound side, but much higher for the sunken outbound. Knowing how high the vault actually is, seeing the plaques with the name on the inbound side looks strnage, especially if you look from the outbound side overlook to the inbound wall. The appearance on the inbound platform makes the station look more like a single track stop with a lower level. You can see that there's no definite wall, but the vault doesn't just end... looking out the side of a train, you probably won't see the lower platform easily. The only way out of here is by bus; there is no parking, and you can't just walk into the Pentagon willy-nilly... If you actually need to get somewhere, try Pentagon City or Crystal City. This stop, despite the development (includng the Pentagon) around it, is almost as remote as the nearest inbound Blue stop... and we all know how remote THAT is... Transfers made here can be easily made elsewhere - the stop could get away with being marked as shared but not transfer on the maps (the Blue and Yellow meet again at L'Enfant Plaza, which is the next inbound stop for Yellow anyway), while the corridor is shared by them to the south. However, for all purposes of simplicity and convenience, it is a transfer stop, and for good reason: Despite the immediate transfer again if going on a northbound Yellow train, this remains a diverging point. If you need Yellow and mistakenly board Blue, you CAN just ride around via I Street corridor, but it's a LONG haul...
I give Pentagon **** in rating. I personally prefer it later-to-be-discussed sister station, given how much more spacious it is.
It's really amazing what the difference it makes to have Rosslyn's mezzanine on the surface, while Pentagon's mezzanine is at platform level. It doesn't affect the lower level, but on the upper level, it just makes Rosslyn look a lot "cleaner", with no kiosk blocking the views, and also a little more tranquil, since there's no farecard vending noise, no noise related to the station manager kiosk, and no faregate noise.
All in all, it makes Rosslyn one of my favorite stations. Also partly the reason that when I visit DC, I consider Rosslyn my "home base" in DC, where I go to the second-level terrace at Rosslyn Center to gather my thoughts, relax, etc. It's a nice place to go.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Despite my residing in Philly, I have a sort of "home base" in the DC Metro - L'Enfant Plaza. You ever ride out on a day I'm railfanning, I'm probably parked there, usually on the upper level. Just don't look for me in rush hour, I've had enough fun washing the footprints off the back of my shirts.
If I do, I'll let you know. I already have an idea of where I'm going... a few places I haven't been to in a few trips: Huntington, Fran-Spring, New Carollton, Addison Road, Branch Ave, Shady Grove (was there in November, but slept most of the trip), Vienna (haven't been out the Orange Line WEST since 1999), and I'll park myself at L'Enfant Plaza for about 15 minutes when I get there initially.
Guaranteed: Around 12:00 PM-2:00 PM, I'll head for Pentagon City to see what's what in the mall.
Less so: I'll park myself in Rosslyn and/or Pentagon.
btw, speaking of the Blue/Yellow alignment... when in the world are they EVER going to build Potomac Yard Station? Or has it been dropped?
and yet again: I took a CLOSE look at a 1984 pic on the site. Apparently, at least since 1984, they've used the wall plaque signs. Meaning that since before my first visit (1988), they were there. I just didn't notice... scratch that, I saw ONE at Federal Triangle... The pic, interestingly enough, is at Archives. Yes, just "Archives". No suffix on the plaque or pylons. When is it they actually renamed it "Archives-Navy Mem'l"? I seem to recall the original name still existing on my first visit. Was that done the same year as Gallery Place?
Yellow could do Mt Vernon, Fort Belvoir and then over to the NS/Amtrak tracks south of Lorton (or just north of it), and then into Woodbridge... would be nice if both went there... Or if Yellow ran north under Georgia Avenue to Silver Spring.
Actually as I recall the ARS maps show future extension going as far as Fairfield which is south of Hybla Valley but short of Fort Belvoir. And yes the bulkheads at the ends of the tail track tunnels south of Huntington (C15) can be knocked out to extend the line.
None of the ARS maps that I have seen over the years showed any future extension of the J route south of the existing terminal at Springfield-Franconia (J03).
Chris Zimerman, chairman of the WMATA board of directors presently has a hardon for lite rail along with a number of other politicians for future fixed guide way transit projects.
John
To clarify, my "home base" is actually outside of fare control, on a balcony with quick escalator and elevator access to the station. It's the building that the Rosslyn Station mezzanine is in, Rosslyn Center. Let me show you.
My home base is the second-level balcony shown here. Notice the blank Metro pylon on that level.
Provides a good view of buses coming by, airplanes flying out of National, plus there's usually a good breeze going there.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Then again, I only exit in DC at Union Station when it's time to leave.
But yes... L'Enfant Plaza... you'll see me on the upper level, either side, at the north end (where the sound of the train crossing the crossover switch is best). If you're on Blue/Orange and need me, try Stadium-Armory or FCSW. (the former because... I don't know, something draws me to that station.)
The forms used the cast the train hall vault in Rosslyn (C05) were also used to cast the train hall vault in the Pentagon (C07) station. The Pentagon train hall was pored after the Rosslyn train hall. Train control room is on the north end lower level. Both ends of the station have traction power tie breakers on the lower level. The cooling tower for the station air conditioning is located in the same structure as the traction power substation above the connecting tunnels on the south side of VA I-395. Oh and the center of the platform is 26,133" (7965.34m) form the zero chaining point at the crossing of the of the two train halls in Metro Center (C01).
John
Lest I forget, this was ANOTHER one not used as a transfer station at first. Originally, despite the split-level island platform, this stop was served ONLY by Blue line trains, not seeing a Yellow Line run until the end of April, 1983 when the Yellow Line opened from Gallery Place to National Aiport. Until then, it was just a VERY architecturally interesting sight...
Mark
I'll throw this one to John, you, and Oren: Had they actually built the line along Columbia Pike, would the junction there be grade separated as well?
Mark
You were included, don't feel bad.
And I take it from Oren's answer, Pentagon would have had grade separated junctions at both ends... I wonder where (if there is one) the bellmouth is for the inbound side south of Pentagon.
Btw... John, if you read this, you're gonna love this one... next in line is Point Zero of the Metro System.
And the plot thickens (can't you just hear the music)
I'm starting to get more RSVP's from people that will make it on the 19th....plus, I'm posting the event on other transit boards, like btco.net for those up in the Bawlmer area...
John, do me a favor---place a post on the news-group that you and I frequent...
Thanks,
Mark
All I can say is, be sure to bring any and all reference material you may have on the Metro----you'll need it---some questions will be historical in nature, while others will be more technical----John told me some of the items in the prize pack----much better than I ever could have anticipated----So, be sure to tell your friends, tell your lovers, tell your others.....just be there on the 19th.
Most if not all of the readers on the USNET news groups that this would apply to are advocates and not fans. Besides the people on USNET that would be interested in participating would all ready know of this event from this forum.
So I am not going to post are little get together on USNET.
John
I'll throw this one to John, you, and Oren: Had they actually built the line along Columbia Pike, would the junction there be grade separated as well?
I am jumping in here a little late. Yes the junction there will be grade separated. As a matter of fact the provisions at the south end of the station are a mirror image of the existing L route junction at the north end of the station. Almost everything is there. Third rail conduits, signal wiring conduits, switches machine control conduits, floating slab under where the # 14 switches will be placed, and as I mentioned traction power tie breaker. It’s been more the 25 years sense I walked that tunnel, I don’t recall if the slots are in the track bed to allow for the switches machine throw rods, but I would hazard a guess that they are there as well.
If WMATA follows their normal signal numbering nomenclature the signal protecting the junction switch on lower level outbound track C2 will be C07 36, against the normal flow of traffic from track 2 off the Colombia Pike Route C07 46, on the existing C route track C2 C07 38. On the upper level inbound track 1 C07 42 will protect the inbound traffic from the Colombia Pike Route, C07 34 from the existing C route track C1, against the normal flow of traffic on track C1 C07 32. The switches will be numbered lower level outbound track C2 #7 and upper level inbound track C1 #5.
John
Hm... now if they went NORTH from Rosslyn into Georgetown... which is REALLY something one of either Orange, Blue, or Silver should do; WMATA could probably find some way or another to bring the lines back together before Stadium-Armory. Then again, if the current Grosvenor to Silver Spring headways on Red are coming off with no backups, I guess the Rosslyn/Stadium-Armory corridor can manage three separate lines.
There are walkways from the Pentagon Transit Center to Army-Navy Drive..
Mark
Need stations Rosslyn to McPherson Sq inclusive: Just wait on Blue
Need stations Metro Center to all points east inclusive, both lines: Transfer at L'Enfant Plaza
Boarded wrong train: Ride inbound until they cross again.
Need Blue Stations from Yellow: Transfer between Pentagon and King Street inclusive
Need Yellow Stations from Blue: From Rosslyn and Arlington Cemetery, head to Pentagon or stations beyond as far as King Street. From the DC side of the Potomac, go to L'Enfant Plaza, or to Metro Center, then Red to Gallery Pl-Chinatown to Yellow.
Need Blue Stations from Orange: Should not even need to THINK about that one...
Need Yellow Stations from Orange: Tricky. From Federal Center SW and east, use L'Enfant Plaza. From the I Street tunnel, use L'Enfant Plaza, OR jump to Red at Metro Center and then to Yellow at Gallery Pl-Chinatown (luck on timing with you, it's faster than riding through on the Orange train). At Federal Triangle or Smithsonian, go to L'Enfant Plaza. From Rosslyn and west, change to Blue at Rosslyn and then to Yellow Pentaon to King Street inclusive.
Need Green or Red from Blue: Transfer between King Street and Pentagon inclusive to ellow and take that to the applicable transfer station.
Not trying to discredit Pentagn as a transfer station. It's just got too many alternatives, mostly due to L'Enfant Plaza being immediately next inbound on Yellow, and a point for ANOTHER Blue/Yellow transfer. IIRC, it's also the only point where the lines divide going inbound.
And... Mike, Oren, John... subwayworld poses an interesting question I've been wondering myself. What exactly IS the technical term for those wallsigns at the diverging end of the platforms at such stops as Pentagon, Rosslyn, and L'Enfant Plaza? I assume you know which ones to which I refer.
Red other than Metro Center: change at Gallery for Yellow
Orange Vienna branch: change at Rosslyn
Blue west of L'Enfant not including L'Enfant and including Metro Center: No change of trains
Orange east of L'Enfant not including L'Enfant: change at L'Enfant for Yellow
Green: Change for Yellow somewhere
Arlington Cemetery: Blue
If you are going to F/S or Van Dorn, it is GENERALLY faster to just take Blue all the way around.
If Blue shows up first along the common stretch, it is generally faster to wait for Yellow, even on a Sunday afternoon (saves about 2-3 min). There are exceptions to this at times such as early Sunday mornings and possibly very late at night.
I've been wondering the same thing myself. Perhaps "fliplight" signs?
For lack of a better name "Next Train Going To Sign"
John
Some of the tourists though, just annoy me...
Will you be joining us on the 19th for the scavenger hunt?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn )
The only place that it runs elevated is in BROOKLYN!
It has to be on the NEW LOTS LINE!
: )-
Elias
KOIN
Tri-met
The best, a complete guide to MAX and development!!!
You know i'm going to save the last one and use that as ammo :)
Can anyone find any decent stuff? And why aren't you all out there taking pics!!
TBO.COM
TAMPA - Winning a five-figure pay bonus after 14 years in charge of the local bus system, Sharon Dent announced Friday that she will leave amid questions about her management and a state law enforcement inquiry.
Dent, 56, denied she was leaving because of a recent county audit that found HARTline violated its spending policies, paid for unfinished work and shifted money from buses to a tourist-geared $56 million streetcar system. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement also is conducting a preliminary investigation of alleged spending irregularities.
I always thought the on-board ads were limited compared to those bus wraps. People must not know you can put ads inside the buses and trolleys. With all the billions in streetcar development, and sponsership, and private runs, one would think a retaurant or hotel would've put some ads up in there!
Jeff should be in marketing W
Executive summary: We were stopped by police for a polite conversation which lasted about an hour, involved the two of us and about ten people whose paychecks come from our money, and resulted in us being sent on our way after both of us agreed to delete (and, of course, were checked to respect the agreement) ALL pictures from our (digital) cameras.
It kind of started out wrong when an operator of the train a picture of which we were trying to take sounded a long "Booooooo!!" with his horn, and reached for his wireless. The next episode was at the Liberty State Park station, when an orange-vested security guard told us, "Your liberty just doesn't happen to extend to taking pictures here." (OK, OK, the actual phrase used was "you guys can't take pictures here.") By the time we arrived to 22nd St., I guess the system was on full alert and quite ready to deal with the obvious threat just mounting before their eyes.
The conversation started as usual, a Bayonne cop approaching, followed soon by a colleague, IDs, SSNs, occupation, status, calling Al Qaeda Directory Assistance (or so I believe) to see if we happened to be listed - then the fun gradually unfolded. First things first, let's state it here so there's no further misconception: We were stopped because we were taking pictures of SOFT TARGETS. So, from now on, if you are caught railfanning and asked what you are doing, you shall reply: "I am taking pictures of soft targets." Got that? Good.
Naturally, we were asked to hand over our cameras so our protectors could share in the railfan part. Here comes my Big Slip of the Day... Remember that big thing being completed on Hudson & Essex, by the waterfront? Well, LGA-bound planes yesterday were flying right behind that building - if you stay on the inland side of it. Pick the right moment, and you've got a picture with a plane flying right into the thing. You've guessed it - here we have a cop staring at such a picture that my faithful camera obediently showed him. You should've looked at his expression.
Did that turn them on, or they'd been thrilled enough irrespective of that - be that as it may, that's when reinforcements started to flow in. All in all, we had the pleasure of meeting: the two cops' boss, our friend the security guard from LSP, about three NJT cops (who were, incidentally, the least interested - stood there without speaking a word as far as I recall), a couple of fare inspectors, and The Plain-Clothes Guy on whom more later. That adds up to what?.. uhu, ten. I think it is generally believed that you should be mounting an offensive at no less than 3:1; here we were at 5:1. Nice to realize that these guys know a thing or two about tactics.
To give credit where it's due, the conversation was quite polite all the time through, and more than once were we told that we were not being accused of anything, and even that (believe it or not) they didn't believe that we were terrorists. (To give further credit where it's due, one of the cops did at one moment say, "You see, if you were being accused, you'd be in handcuffs by now.") Why the fuss, then? Quoting almost verbatim: "Four years ago, no one would have paid any attention to what you were doing. But *you know what the times are like right now*. Obviously, if someone is taking pictures of soft targets, we have to make sure there's nothing, you know, in the making. That's exactly what we are doing."
Well, here's one thing that they might not know. There used to be a country. A big country. Bigger than this country, as it happens. I was born there. In that country, since 1917, times were always or almost always we-knew-what. Specifically, that country was surrounded by a ring of enemies (the enemies weren't terrorists, but they were worse - for they actually exploited the working people, not to mention a number of other grave sins), and we in that country had to watch out - because the enemies didn't nap; they were constantly making plans to annihilate us, the leaders of the free world, the prophets of democra... excuse me, that was of course communism. And so we all had to be alert. Errmmm, by now I think I forgot why I recalled this.
Anyway, so we spent about an hour talking to these nice gentlemen, the gentlemen walking away and making calls to various undisclosed locations and engaging in some undisclosed conversations, until the crown jewel aka The Plain-Clothes Guy appeared on the scene. I think they announced him as the local antiterrorist expert or whatnot - to be honest, by that time I was somewhat lost in the panopticum and was not quite so alert (very, very bad of me! Well, I'm still considering turning myself in for the loss of alertness. My revolutiona... no, democratic consciousness does hurt me; can I build my defense around this, at least?). The Plain-Clothes Guy was sort of sharp and terse (I suspect he wouldn't be allowed to wear plain clothes otherwise), and presently came The Offer of the Day.
The terms of The Offer of the Day went as follows. Either
(i) you surrender your cameras (or just the CF cards), which we will take with us to the appropriate office, examine what's there, and return to you at some unspecified point in the future,
or
(ii) you erase all your images here and now, and that will end our conversation, with the two of you actually being allowed to set your own course.
At the end of the day, we agreed that we should have surrendered the cards had their capacity been 128M, we would have had the right to hesitate at 256M, but probably did the right thing with the 512M cards that we both had :-) We're not exactly millionaires after all. Still, somewhere in the back of my mind there's this uneasy feeling of having subjugated without being guilty of anything. Then again, I happen to be a busy person, and contacts with the FBI or whatever that could be, are not on my calendar for the next few months. What would you people do?
To top off a long story, a practical question. Does anyone know for sure, *with reference to sources*, whether it's legal to:
(i) take pictures of HBLR trains while standing on public property (I'm rather sure I know the answer! But still...);
(ii) do same while standing on publicly accessible NJT property, like station platforms (trespassing is a separate and clear matter, of course)?
Unfortunately, even if my friend and I had the time, it doesn't look like we have a case against our polite companions, with no property having been seized, and with us having erased those images voluntarily. Still, I'd love to know. For one thing I'm now certain about: Not overexcited as I used to be about that particular system, now I *will* come back there and take those pictures again. Probably not tomorrow, but I will.
I'm not a US citizen, but had I been one, here would come one vote against Mr Bush.
Well, perhaps one or a few will come anyway, if any of those who read or hear my story, get the message.
I also want to mention that there is a good article in Vanity Fair magazine a few months ago pertaining to New York and all the laws under Bloomberg. A driver(can't remember if it was a towncar or cabbie) mentioned that all the laws and living in NYC reminded him of what it was like in the Ukraine. I forget the writer, but if you're familiar with the magazine, the writer did everything illegal that day hoping to get some tickets(sitting on subway steps to tie showlaces, sitting on two train seats, sitting on a milkcrate, smoking inside the cab, etc).
"I'm not a US citizen, but had I been one, here would come one vote against Mr Bush. "
Move to philly. Too bad the hoopla was in FL and not PA. After they reported that a very well brided judge allowed non-resident Russians from the Northeast the ability to vote with an "intreptor"(guy who tells you who to pick). Of course thats not including the usual dead guys voting, or violence at the polls.
Also, I would've deleted the pictures too, I would be suspicious about how long, or even if I get my camera or memory card back(and in good condition even).
How absurd, do they question people taking pictures of the Empire State building now too?
Welcome to the Police State, folks...
Yes, indeedy do. My sister was stopped by security personnel at the Empire State Building in 2003 for taking this little gem:
She was told that it was a security violation to take a picture of that (why?) and that she could be arrested for that. Mind you, though, she and the group she was with visited the Empire State Building to do the whole observation-deck thing, where they took lots of pretty pictures of practically the entire New York City skyline with no problems.
It seems to make no sense where they enforce things. Oh, we yearn for those carefree days of a few years ago...
Ben F. Schumin :-)
WTF! This isn't IRAN!
He happened to be working, something you know very little about.
Well, even NJ Transit has to hire its share of idiots...
Aren't you just adding to the paranoia by doing that?
Last time I checked, the Police weren't allowed to make laws. Only a Legislative body can do that; and they haven't.
No. You are completely wrong. You should be banned from here for making such a stupid and blatantly false posting.
But some states have different policies than others and I assume that NJT (New Jersey) has what's called a Zero Tolerance Policy on photography in their system which basically means no photography is allowed under any circumstances. And that Zero Tolerance Policy is the reason WHY you got stopped.
When you assume you make an a$$ out of you and you.
Sorry, the official MTA website says it is legal as long as you don't use tripod or flash or other extra equipment. It's stated in print. As for buses, I have never taken a photo of a bus because I really don't have any interest in them, however.... I can understand if somehow they decided you couldn't take subway photos on subway property (totally hypothetical, as again, the MTA says it's legal on their website). However, I can not see the same for buses. If you are on a PUBLIC street, I can see nothing the MTA can do to stop you from taking a photo of a bus (not that I have any desire to do so). So hypothetically, even if what you said was true that it was illegal to take photos of subway or buses, the bus one defintiely can't hold up.
But some states have different policies than others and I assume that NJT (New Jersey) has what's called a Zero Tolerance Policy on photography in their system which basically means no photography is allowed under any circumstances.
Just to add, for PATH, etc...I have taken rail photogrphy photos since around 1989. So while it is illegal to photograph on PATH, it has NOTHING at all to do with 9/11. It was already illegal on PATH long before 9/11/01, it was already illegal there when I first took up rail photography.
That is very true - I DID NOT spend hundreds of dollars to buy camera equipment so I can take pictures of the family pet - the ONLY reason I spent the money was to take pictures of historical structures, trains, etc.
Why buy a camera if I can't use it?
Elias
But despite my dislike of the current administration, I feel it necessary to post a part of a recent speech made by Bush:
Good evening, my fellow Americans. It is I, George W. Bush. I'm the President. And I am here tonight to discuss the state of the economy. Now one thing most people do not realize, is that since I have been in office, there has been tremendous growth in one major part of the economy. Of course, I'm talking about the national debt. It has grown tremendously since I have been in office. Now, people don't realize that this is a money saving tactic on my part. You see, if we don't have any wealth as a nation, we can see nothing but tremendous savings. We will no longer need a Department of the Treasury..."
It sounds like something I wrote in 2nd grade for one of those "What Did I Do Last Summer?" essays.
I also have some interest and puzzlement in what China can/would do. One one hand their a nationalistic country that is the only nation to become a world power without being in a major war to get there(from some china studies book I glanced through once). But on the other hand, isn't their whole economy based on making us all the cheap crap we are required to buy to keep the economy moving? As some guy in a business mag said, "it's all made in china now".
I can't figure it out, but hopefully we're get a good spacerace going. If I'm going to have an enemy that makes us strive for innovation and other things, it sure aint' going to be the arab shieks.
mike
mike
So I will repeat my statement - KEEP IT TO TRAINS - you want to talk about international affairs - take it somewhere else.
Mike
the last group that had rebuilds, back in the late 80's early 90's totaled 19. It was intended for them to run on the harbourfront line. They did for a while, but the residents complained of the noise from the wheels. They last were used in revenue service on Dec. 6 (not sure of the day) 1995. Of the final group - the TTC holds the two that were restored to original condition #4500 and #4549. Of the remaining 17, the rest went to a variety of Rail Preservation societies. Some are still operational and in use, some are being rehabbed. I will be sending you an email with the particulars...
Mike
-Robert King
-Robert King
4500 class Rebuilding Program
New Number
Former Number
Year Outshopped
4600
4505
1986
4601
4512
1987
4602
4537
1989
4603
4548
1989
4604*
4500
1989
4605*
4549
1989
4606
4528
1989
4607
4536
1990
4608
4544
1990
4609
4526
1990
4610
4541
1990
4611
4540
1990
4612
4543
1990
4613
4503
1991
4614
4509
1991
4615
4518
1991
4616
4515
1991
4617
4539
1992
4618
4501
1992
*officially so numbered by TTC but retaining
original numbers for historical accuracy
there is a great website on Toronto Transit.
here is the link
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/transit.cfm?tt=streetcar&id=4509
that is just on the rebuilt PCC's
this is for the main page - really well done.
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/
Enjoy
Mike
This proves that all this talk about "freedom" by the current administration, and also by the current Congressional session, is nothing other than propaganda - more a tool of political one-ups-man-ship than an overarching fundamental principle. If you have to prostrate yourself before The Powers That Be just so that you can take a few pictures while standing in a publicly accessible area, what's next - getting a permit to go to the bathroom? If this really were a free country where protecting freedoms were viewed as tantamount by the current leadership (and it is one of the closest things there is to one on this planet), you'd be *free* to take pictures (unless it were something that severely compromised national security - photocopying a classified document, or photographing a limited-access area at a nuclear power plant, for example - I don't see how taking pictures of trains falls anywhere near that category) or was disruptive to others (blocking an exit that others are trying to use, for example). That's what it means to be *free* - you can do what you want unless there is a specific and superseding demand to the contrary.
And if we complain about the government, it could only be because we actually do love this country and want to see only the best for it. If we didn't care we could have simply left a long time ago. And loving your country doesn't mean unquestioningly accepting every edict and mandate - Orwell wrote a nice little book about what happens in such a society, and Jefferson and many of the other founding fathers were explicit in stating that letting your voice be heard, actively questioning the actions of your government and proposing alternatives are all vital to the operation of a true constitutional democracy.
On a more practical note, what do you think there is to stop some al Qaeda member from getting one of these permits? Or for that matter, why not just conduct the photography surreptitiously? Realistically, his chances of getting caught if he makes himself inconspicuous are slim to none.
So this whole permit charade (like the vast majority of the other "security" measures enacted since 9/11) provide little, if any - make that NO - security benefit while infringing, in some cases markedly so (i.e. indefinite detainment), on the fundamental rights of law-abiding citizens and visitors to this country. The only reason they're done is because they're visible and public measures, and to a citizenry of sheeple who don't bother to think too deeply about these issues (what would Jefferson say about that?), it makes them feel "safer." Ooh, they're confiscating tweezers at the airport so Osama can't use one to hijack a plane. Ooh, they're not letting people take pictures of trains so they can't use the pictures to blow them up. Ooh, they make everybody go through a metal detector before being allowed into the Empire State Building and the Statue of Liberty, so those landmarks must be safe.
Where have the real Patriots gone? It's good to see there are quite a few here, but as far as the general public goes, the picture isn't all that good...
"Welcome to the SubTalk bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only. Off-topic and harassing posts will be removed at the discretion of the management"
Flaming the president, for his policies is definately off-topic here unless he was talking about Amtrak funding or the like. And he wasn't. What I do with my vote come November is my business, not anyone elses. My opinions are mine, and I made the choice to keep them to myself. Unlike others who didn't make that choice, I know that politics is very contenious (sp?) - and it will cause more arguments here or anywhere else with the exception of relgion. I may or may not agree with Mr. Blair, however, I do respect his right to say what he wants, with that said, it wasn't appropriate for him to be talking about things other than trains or such. I know that sometimes things get off topic, and that is fine, but this is very inappropriate for this board.
Mike
mike
Bums? As in people who are so mentally disabled that they can't hold a job and therefore cannot afford proper housing? Is that what you refer to as a bum?
Christ Almighty, here you go again. Haven't you learned that you're just making yourself seem like a senile old schmuck?
There are many reasons why skells are that way. Some indeed are mentally ill. Others are addicted to drugs and/or alcohol. Still others are just horribly down on their luck. Finally, many of them probably have a combination of issues.
Did you ever stop to think that Qtrain may be intolerant of skells with mental disorders because he has been able to lead a semi-normal life, not homeless or anything, despite being (so he says) mentally unable to work?
Peter did it ever occur to you that you present some very weak arguments? You criticize me for not being tollerant of johnny q-ball because he's mentally ill but you excuse little q-ball's intollerance of other mentally ill people because he's not homeless. Don't you see the inconsistancy there. If anything, johnny Q should be more tollerant of 'bums' because except for the circumstance of a taxpayer funded apartment and some food & clothing - there he'd be.
In all honesty, I don't take too much of this shit too seriously but it would be more interesting if you presented some descent arguments once in a while. If you want to attack me, at least carry some ammo.
Oh, pardon me. The ossifer ought to have looked at the homeless man too. But perhaps the officer already knew who he was, and what his needs were. Sometimes there isn't anything you can do for such people, unless you want to re-open Pilgrim State Hospital or something. Put them all inside where they will be warm and clean, or something. But then, would you hold them there against thier will?
There are many issues in society, and if that "bum" would have accepted aid that Qtrain has accepted, then he too would not be wasting away on the station platform. As a conservative and a Republican, I have no problem with making sure that the truly needy and indigent are cared for by the society. True there are some lazy oafs who work the system, but I really object to most of the welfare system because it does nothing to HELP people. Here, take this money and don't bother me! Most people do not need money, they need a chance! And *that* is exactly what the "Gimmiecrats" are NOT offering to people. (Not that the Rekeeplicans are doing it any better at all!)
The whole city is your living room, and its people are your family.
If we might treat each other this way, we would be a great nation once again.
Elias
In our current international circumstance, our government has determined that it would be wide to maintain an elevated level of security. I agree with that. What I don't agree with is that some here have taken their railfanning hobby and made it more important than the legitimate national security concerns of the majority of the populace. But, since national security concerns have limited the desires of some here to pursue their hobby interests, national security should be a fair subject for discussion (unless some refer to those they don't agree with as Nazis or Diaper Wearers).
They already are safe.
Obviously not but at 75 MPH Johnny Q-tip standing on the ROW with a camera may look like a mini-terrorist to a LIRR engineer. He has every right to call it in and the police have the obligation to investigate it.
Wrong.
Probably, although he hasn't had much luck in snagging one.
The government lies. There is zero danger of further terrorist attacks in the United States, for the simple reason that if there were any active terrorist cells here they would have struck already. I guarantee you, the government knows this. Unfortunately, everybody's going mucking fental because American people aren't willing to accept defeat. We can't adjust to the fact that 19 dimwitted towel heads were able to pull off the most crushing military defeat in American history. In response, we're striking out blindly, and railfans unfortunately are among the innocent victims. If we as Americans were more gracious about accepting the occasional battlefield defeat none of this would happen.
Look locally (Selkirk has pointed this out) and you will see that the cities (including New York) and the states have been seriously shortchanged for the $$$$ that HS requires.
In Baltimore, a east cost port city, only 2 of every 10 containers get fully checked out (so that what's on the manifest is really what's inside) and it's the city and the state that foots the bill.
Cops detailed to HS get pulled off more important (Crime) police work, because the adminstration failed to continue a worthwile project.
I'd much rather talk about streetcars, subways and trains, but the political stuff is as much a part of life as any other.
So now you are going to guarantee the safety of every American man, woman and child? You are obviously eating too many mushrooms. I'll skip over your racist characterization of Arab people as "dimwitted towel heads". It just shows what a hypoctite you are. Now, Peter, you may consider this a personal attack if you wish but you are a complete fucking idiot. 3,000 innocent Americans died in that attack. It cost this country and the city of NY billions of dollars and changed our collective lifestyles for the forseeable future. If you think we should accept it with grace - If you think we should accept it as an occasional battlefield defeat then you are beneath contempt. Fortunately, I don't believe that the majority of Subtalkers (OR AMERICANS) find your point of view anything more than mindless drivel (other than johnny Q-Tips).
I'm not making fun of Arabs. I'm making fun of people who are afraid of Arabs.
3,000 innocent Americans died in that attack. It cost this country and the city of NY billions of dollars and changed our collective lifestyles for the forseeable future. If you think we should accept it with grace - If you think we should accept it as an occasional battlefield defeat then you are beneath contempt.
Accept it with grace? No, the proper way of dealing with a battlefield defeat like 9/11 is to FIGHT BACK. Not by retreating into paranoia.
We do not have to retreat into paranoia. Hpoefully America can shake the Republican lamprey that is sucking out all that is great about America, But the war will go on. taliban and al qaida still exist and they need to be totally eradicated from the face of the earth and the Iraqi situation needs to be stabilized enough by a force under UN command who can someday give Iraq back to it's people without fear that Iraq would become an islamist rat's nest.
Not only are you a load in societies pants, you are also a liar. This is what you actually said;
"If we as Americans were more gracious about accepting the occasional battlefield defeat none of this would happen."
THOSE WERE YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE. SPIN IT ANYWAY YOU WANT. YOU SAID IT"
I think the amount of agreement with your views depends on what you're referring to. Lots of people on this board have endorsed the idea of polite questioning by the police when they receive a complaint.
Not so many endorse the idea of the police, after a thorough investigation and agreeing that the person in question is an innocent railfan, still demanding that the person delete the pictures.
Also not so many endorse rail employees screaming at railfans (not politely at all) that pictures are not permitted when in fact they are.
If you got the officer's name you can go to Hudson county small claims court and file suit for the value of the photos. Even if you loose it will be a pain in the ass for them.
Police cannot sieze your property for an unspecified period of time. You have a constutional right to a speedy hearing.
And no matter how you try to answer, it would just escalate the situation further. In fact, virtually any answer you give to a cop other than "Yes sir" will usually escalate the situation. Forget about trying to assert your Constitutional rights - that'll get you a ticket to Rikers faster than anything else...
Besides, only anti-government lunatics like Tim McVeigh and the Unabomber, and those tree hugger wackos at the ACLU really care about their Constitutional rights. We have to uphold Fatherland Security after all, and if some of your rights have to be abridged that's too bad... that's not just the opinion of the Storm Trooper harassing you, but alas also of the general US population at large. "Oh, he must be doing something wrong if he won't consent to a body cavity search without probable cause to any jackass who requests it. Oh, why would he demand a lawyer or refuse to answer a question if he wasn't doing anything wrong? Well, if the officer decided to question him, he must have been doing something wrong." etc.
I've heard there's a new medicine that helps stop the progress of Alzheimer's. Maybe you can add it to your daily routine, you know, along with Levitra.
Peter, i'd like to ask you a question that has nothing to do with trains. Why are you interested in another man's erect penis? Do you do this often?
Are you serious?
Anyway, this HBLR thing has caused me to take it up a notch. "Fatherland Security" is officially no longer my problem. I don't care if I see Osama Bin Ladden on the 7 train with an AK-47. If the cops are going to treat me like a terrorist then screw them, I'm not going to make their job easier. I am just going to get off the train and go on my merry way. Not my problem any more. If the government wants its citizens to care they should treat them with a little more god damn respect.
Yes, those are actual comments I've heard from people I've talked to about this. Even those who do care about civil liberties generally take the view that "there are more important things to worry about," or "well, sometimes we have to sacrifice a little essential liberty in exchange for short-term security." I guess we as railfans are more acutely aware of our rights to do things that to some may seem suspicious, nerdy and/or esoteric (taking pictures of trains, studying track maps, playing contingency games about taking lines out of service, not to mention a healthy amount of gummint-bashing) than the general public. It's a sad commentary on our society.
Just be careful when you get off the train to not be too "suspicious," or you might convince your surveiller that you're attempting to evade law enforcement (which in fact you are, I guess), which would invite an even bigger response. Be prepared to spend the better part of that day in an interrogation room - you'll be released without charge and with all your possessions if you give the right answers, but you can forget about whatever you were doing that day...
Hey, you'll get 3 square Halal meals a day, and a complimentary Koran, prayer mat and skull cap, and lots of human companionship in the form of your interrogator, all of this on sunny beachfront property in the Caribbean, so it's not all bad...
An attorney should be consulted.
A waste of time ... the police are above the law these days, after all, they're "heroes."
Our system of jurisprudence however, puts the burden on you to prove your case, so it is only a waste of time if you don't want to do the work. If you do, there's a lot that can be accomplished.
I oppose "reforms" that prevent you from suing for a legitimate loss in the first place. I support reforms that prevent you from venue-shopping, holding everybody hostage with joint and severable regardless of the facts and collecting unlimited pain and suffering awards.
Maybe right-wingers favor tort reform because they are 'RIGHT'.
Arti
I would not have beat around the bush with the officers.
I would have politely told them that their option is to arrest and book me now, or allow me to continue to make photographs.
Elias
I accidentally erased some digital pix from the memory card in my dad's camera.
All I had to do was download some free software, install it on my computer, run it, and back came the pix just the same as undeleting any file on the HD.
VERY IMPORTANT: Do not record anything to the memory card before you undelete the pix.
You can find it here.
To download it directly, click here.
For a further discussion of this kind of software and other alternatives, see item #2 in this issue of LangaList.
Well, there IS harm in doing just that. The police and the government have infinitely more power to terrorize the citizenry than a couple thousand nutjobs in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan ever will.
I think somebody should start printing the Constitution on toilet paper, and give it out to government agents and elected officials. Might as well literally do what they're doing figuratively.
Don't worry Stefan, you have one anti-Bush vote right here :)
Yeah after that you should have just gotten out of there, I mean off the system.
That was my mistake yesterday. An LIRR engineer saw me taking a picture of his train and went for the radio. I should have left then. Instead I kept snapping away. And an MTA Police officer showed up to question me. Fortunately in my case he was nice. I dont know what I would've done if he asked me to delete photos. If I refused I'd probably have been arrested. If I did delete them, then I'd want his name and badge and to speak with his supervisor.
Then my next trip would be to a lawyer's office and the news.
I'm really shocked the news isnt covering these violations of civil liberties. Well maybe I shouldnt be so shocked.
The news is mostly owned by right wingers. I'm so upset I really want to get involved in a movement to get the situation across to the public. I've tried some internet groups, especially commuter groups like Straphangers and the LIRR Commuters Campaign. They could care less. Maybe the ACLU would be interested?
These civil rights violations are way more serious than these so-called "police brutality" cases. But you know they saying, "if it bleeds it leads". :-(
Actually most news media is far to the right.
furthermore, I suspect that you will find more respect for your rights on the right then on the left. The problem is not with the ideologies or with the leadership as it is with the bureaucrats who try to carry them out.
Elias
Clear Channel (out here at least) in not overly bent to the right. They have several left leaning shmoes on too. And the local station did tell CC where to get off at: they break the Rush Limbaugh show up into two pieces, and put their own very popular farm program on at noon. Told CC: We make more money this way, so PHFTFTFTFftftftftttttt.......
What clear channel *does* do is put on winning programs that rake in the money. Let's face it: Rush draws more of a crowd than Charles Schultz. And Schultz is a local Fargo boy~ Tring to become the Liberal Rush. He's good, but not *that* good, he ain't going to replace Limbaugh on any station any time in this decade.
And the PSA announcements: they are all from deep left field, a real hoot to have them run around the Rush Program. And CC doesnt *have* to play *any* of those things.
Methinks you are mixing polyticks with making money.
Elias
Certain parts (FOX, Murdock owned TV stations & radio stations to swing to the right). Most talk radio (AM spectrum) is Far Right.
You need to read/listen to both sides of the political spectrum to get a real "fair & balanced" opinion.
Yes, but not overly so.
You want FAR RIGHT... Just tune in to Michael Savage...
Elias
ACTUALLY: Br. Elias is DYSLEXIC and doesn't understand his right from his left.
I HAD INTENDED TO SAY that MOST NEWS MEDIA in this country already is LEFT LEANING!
: ) Elias
I guess you don't read Newday or the NY Times or watch CBS, ABC or NBC.
I missspoke myself!
I Meant LEFT.
MOST MEDIA is FAR LIBERAL LEFT!
Elias
In case you don't realize it, mainstream media works in a pack mentality and, up until the last few months, the mentality has been very conserative. No high profile Washington reporter wants to jeoparidze their contacts by rocking the boat. By getting branded as a 'liberal journalist', you lose your contacts and career prospects especially given the higly vindictive group in power now.
Come on already and open your eyes - the so-called 'very liberal NY Times' just publicly apologized and reported on their own indiscretions admitting that white house mis-information was essentially printed word for word on the front page without any verification in the lead up to the Iraq war. These stories helped to fuel the fire for the war, justifying it and helping to build support for it. they essentially admitted to being stoolies for Bush in the run up to the war. 'Liberal media' my ass.
As far as the HBLR goes, just madness, but not all that new - I got hassled by LIRR cops for taking pictures of a LIRR freight train (remember those?) from a street in Queens about 20 years ago...
ROTFL!!
You are right in your second point. The right would be far more offended by these absuses of governmental authority. The left loves this kind of fascist behavior if it is used to further their political agenda.
How would they know if you didn't tell them?
It really is all about you, Qtrain, isn't it?
Or if he happens to be the "wrong" color.
I guess we are below what they once were, When can i move to the USSR?
:0)
You're wrong on both accounts. Outside FOX News, the media is biased towards the left. Secondly, those "right wingers" you so sarcastically dismiss would probably be very angry at this gross abuse of governmental power.
But hey ... as Jack Nocholson said in that famous movie, when it comes to republicans, "You can't HANDLE the truth." :)
This has been repeatedly discussed here - your statement is FALSE - NYCRR section 1050.9c specifically permits non-commercial photography. Check the MTA website - it is posted there even today!! It was the law BEFORE and AFTER 9/11.
Having said that - Back in the 1970's I believe photography required a permit, however the law was changed in response to a lawsuit.
Unless you're a lawyer in the state of NJ, I don't think we have anyone who can give you an answer and be correct. I bet it would have been easier to challenge were you actually *charged* with something. I am of the mind that if this happens to another person, don't submit to a search or seizure of your property. You might get charged. But until these ridiculous things get in front of a court they're not going to go away. IANAL.
It might actually be more efficient to hit the police up for damages after the fact. The big reason is that you don't have anything more to loose except the cost of filing suit. Small claims court is designed to be easy and a case for actual damages is pretty easy to make. You need to go into court and make the following three points.
1) Photography where you were located was legal
2) The police unlawfully threatened you and as a result forced you yo delete your photos
3) Those photos represented a $ amount of time and effort on your part that is now wasted.
If you sue for like $100 or so they might actually settle.
As was pointed out elsewhere in this thread, nothing is actually deleted until it is overwritten.
All he had to do was take the card out of the camera after he "deleted" the photos and keep the card safe until he got home and undeleted them.
Before you do so, make sure you actually have the legal right to photo where you are.
I have had my cell phone almost confiscated one time for trying to take a picture with it. So they do not know how to treat people on that line.
Do you think if railfanners boycott HBLR, the non-rush hour ridership will drop to almost nothing?
The taxpayers are their main revenue source.
We had cameras and a scanner to monitor the traffic. We were seen by numerous passing police cars. We saw a dozen AMTRAK and NS trains. Hundreds of people rode and walked past us. Yet for some strange reason, not one were we approach, let alone questioned by police or anyone else.
This is not the first time we've been in this particular location and it's not the only area where we railfan. No matter what we do, or where we go, the police never harass us. What are we doing wrong?
Well, I'm glad you had a good time and remained unmolested.
Inconsistent policy enforcement is always a risk in a large organization. When you have thousands of employees, hundreds of supervisors, etc. it's certainly possible somebody's not going to use comon sense when interpreting a rule (or will even get the rule wrong). Hence the cop or other employee giving somebody a hard time about photos.
O course, if one of the folks complaining did something that attracted the cop's attention (that they didn't disclose on Subtalk)...
Furthermore, most railroads have neither the time nor inclination to harrass anyone other than tresspassers and even then enforcment was spotty.
The slogan was loved by few and hated by many, and as a result was removed from the plates after about two years.
Due to PA's strange method of replacing license plates some of the plates with the "friend" slogan remained in use until the year 2000.
In reference to reunions, with two of them on the same day, 250 miles apart, I have to miss the one in Melville. It would have been nice to have seen some of those people after 50 years.
Da Hui
What makes you think things would be different if Bush wasn't president? And why are you complaining after you meekly agreed to erase your photos without offering any kind of resistance? I'm getting sick and tired of all this whining. DO SOMETHING!
It's no small thing for an alien to have an arrest record.
And you weren't asked about your immigration status?
Do yourself a favor next time this happens: ignor the bozos who suggest you have a confrontation with the cops. Instead, carry a spare memory card so that you can switch cards after you "delete" the photos. Undeleting the contents of the first card is child's play if you don't continue to use the card after you "delete" something.
Chris R27-R30:
What makes you think things would be different if Bush wasn't president?
The fact that I believe his, and/or his aides', personal stance contributes to the
measures whose effect I just felt upon myself, whose only purpose, to my deep
conviction, is to brainwash the people into feeling cared about, and which will have
zero to negative effect as far as preventing terrorism goes.
I certainly may be wrong with my beliefs.
And why are you complaining after you meekly agreed to erase your photos without
offering any kind of resistance? I'm getting sick and tired of all this whining.
If there's anything I didn't do here, that's whining.
I felt the need to share the story with others, so that (i) they know about it
and be more careful themselves, (ii) whatever minuscule contribution to the public
opinion against such police behavior I could make, I wanted to make it.
DO SOMETHING!
Yes, I am fully aware that by behaving the way I did I effectively encouraged them to do
this again in the future, and I do feel sorry about it. Unfortunately, as I mentioned, I
am a busy person, and besides I wouldn't enjoy the prospect of the FBI talking to my employer
(to begin with). I chose what I considered to be the lesser evil, and now that I have
been reminded about FAT, I will do it again in 10 cases out of 10. I know this is
egoistic. Too bad.
KMA:
Do you speak with a foreign accent?
A slight one but yes.
And you weren't asked about your immigration status?
Of course I was (including when my green card expires, and what I would have to do if I
wanted to become a citizen - basic fool tests, the way I heard it).
And I always carry a spare CF card :-)
JPC:
So this whole permit charade (like the vast majority of the other "security" measures
enacted since 9/11) provide little, if any - make that NO - security benefit while
infringing, in some cases markedly so (i.e. indefinite detainment), on the fundamental
rights of law-abiding citizens and visitors to this country. The only reason they're
done is because they're visible and public measures, and to a citizenry of sheeple who
don't bother to think too deeply about these issues (what would Jefferson say about
that?), it makes them feel "safer."
Could I have put it better myself?..
Perhaps just augment 'feel "safer"' with the intrinsic 'and vote for them'.
If I, for one, didn't like this country, I wouldn't be here. And so I'd love to see this
country act in a reasonable manner.
Granted, people may and will have differing opinions on what's "reasonable" and what's
not. In my opinion, launching an investigation on a railfan in a situation like mine
doesn't qualify as reasonable.
John J. Blair:
Yeah, There has to be a balance. Smart police interviey people and get to know the
"regulars" This rapport pays off by giving the officer many sets of eyes and ears. I
have NO QUARREL with an officer who asks questions.
Same here.
If all there was to this story was questions asked, images reviewed, case closed, - none
of my negative sentiments would have been expressed.
My friend and I have cooperated anyway (and we did get a "Thank you for your
cooperation" at the end of the conversation). But by coercing us to delete the pictures,
I claim that the powers-that-be have overplayed it big time. Which I didn't like at all.
Bad guys go to jail, wiseasses go thru hell and honest railfans get my cell
number.
Guess what - the officed DID give us his number at the end. Perhaps I should have
mentioned this.
Busdude:
And even in Communist Soviet Union it was perfectally legal to take a picture of the
trams.
Ray De Groote, whom a few here probably know, visited my native town of Kiev in 1959.
(The following is what he himself told me.) He took a picture of a tram, and was
approached by a police (i.e., militia) officer. As it turned out, the problem was that
the railway station building got into the picture. "I'm sorry, - he said, - I didn't
know. But is taking pictures of trams per se OK?" - "Yes, it is."
R62A:
Sorry to say it fellas but photography of buses and subways has been ILLEGAL since 9-11.
NYPD, who was a poster here is in the NYPD Police Academy and has brought up the
question of photography in the Transit System. According to his instructors, fellow
Police Officers, they stated that since 9-11, photography in the NYC Subway, Bus and
Rail Systems has been ILLEGAL and a summons can be issued to any violators. The proof
that this law has been actually updated is unknown and has to be looked up at the 1st
possible free chance.
??!
Now that's complete news to me.
I don't know about NJT (and will still try to find out), but I have read the actual NYCT
regulations - well after Sep 11 - and it is specifically stated here that photography in
the subway IS allowed, as long as you don't use flashes, tripods, blah blah.
All the more, how can photography of buses be prohibited, if virtually any bus anywhere
can be photographed while standing on public property??
And I'm sure that back in the Middle East, a terrorist would be laughed at until they had to commit suicide if they were to take credit for blowing up Linden, NJ. In fact I doubt anyone would be able to even locate that burgh on a map. :-\
Despite the thin layer of padding, the seats were rather hard and uncomfortable. Some of the female passengers could have been classified as soft targets, though ;).
As Auric Goldfinger once put it to James Bond, "Once is Happenstance. Twice is Coincidence. The third time it's Enemy action."
Note that your impression
The officer acted like he DID NOT want to be there.
exactly coincides with mine. Like I mentioned, in our case NJT cops were standing there speechless and all but demonstrating their lack of interest. The ones who ran the show were Bayonne cops; perhaps we were just "lucky" to come across one who's sighting a promotion...
I should also have stressed that we WERE standing on NJT property (but only publicly accessible parts thereof) while taking some of our pictures. However, this was never presented as an argument until the very end of the conversation, when The Plain-Clothes Guy did mention it (according to my friend - somehow I didn't really pay attention). However, the finale was actually the same (one more point left out of my original post): "If you guys want to do it again, obtain permission from NJT." - "Permission for what? For taking pictures from public property?.." - "Just get their permission, and you'll be fine."
Anyhow, the picture looks clear now. Obviously, it's perfectly legal to shoot from public property. It's doubtful whether it's legal to do so from NJT's property - New York and Boston representing the two known opposite practices. On top of that, however, we have the drivers/fare inspectors/supervisors who are under instructions to report photographers. Esp. "in our times", you can hardly prove your case against an instruction to call police if any suspicious activity is observed, and the boundaries of "suspicious activity" can stretch ad infinitum - while most of such activity of course remains legal. The rest depends, among other things, on the mood of the cops who happen to be on duty at that time; but one can suspect that if you laugh into their faces and say, "Look, I'm not doing anything illegal - say what you want, but I'm going on with my pictures; watch me if you have no other business", - a hitherto friendly conversation may turn into something more challenging. The choice (hopefully) is still yours.
(Actually, in our case - where we were actually cooperating - one of the cops did mention that they have the right to hold us for up to six hours without arresting or charging us, just for conducting an investigation. In fact, he wasn't quite confident; "I think it's six; don't quite remember, but something like that" were his words. Could we have caught on to this soft spot of his and started acting tough? Perhaps. Problem is, I suspect he'd be quick to find someone who WAS confident; what would the possible consequences be?)
That said, I maintain my viewpoint that (i) the practice of reporting photographers is idiotic, (not only, but in particular) because it is a wasted effort - the real bad guys being smarter than the authors of the idea would like to see them; (ii) in broader terms, a huge part of the current "anti-terrorist" policy is but a PR move. Unfortunately, the very reason the art of PR exists is that in general, it sells well. People tend to look at, and evaluate, the packaging but not the contents...
Yup... and our liberties are disappearing one by one in the name of "these times," I think I'll stay home on election day.
Stefan's post was the main reason I headed out to HBLR. Next stop, Burlington City!
And, if a t.o was to blare a horn at you, then can it be considered just to hurl a rock at his window?
"Someone called in...we have to follow it up." Taking our names & addresses didn't seem warranted, but whatever; if HBLR blows up, I'll get a knock on my door.
And, if a t.o was to blare a horn at you, then can it be considered just to hurl a rock at his window?
I think that's considered felony assault.
NOPE.
Assault is the *threat* of physical violence.
Battery is the *application* of physical violence.
Usually a person is charged with assault and battery because they both threatened the use of violence, and then also actually physically applied violence.
"Assault with a Deadly Weapon" means the Threat of violence with that weapon, not that one was actually shot, cut, sliced, or otherwise mayhemed.
Elias
Sorry to say it fellas but photography of buses and subways has been ILLEGAL since 9-11.
NYPD, who was a poster here is in the NYPD Police Academy and has brought up the
question of photography in the Transit System. According to his instructors, fellow
Police Officers, they stated that since 9-11, photography in the NYC Subway, Bus and
Rail Systems has been ILLEGAL and a summons can be issued to any violators. The proof
that this law has been actually updated is unknown and has to be looked up at the 1st
possible free chance.
??!
Now that's complete news to me.
I don't know about NJT (and will still try to find out), but I have read the actual NYCT
regulations - well after Sep 11 - and it is specifically stated here that photography in
the subway IS allowed, as long as you don't use flashes, tripods, blah blah.
All the more, how can photography of buses be prohibited, if virtually any bus anywhere
can be photographed while standing on public property??
Don't listen to R62A. He knows not what he is talking about. It is still very legal to take pics in the NYC Subway system.
First of all, being a retired police officer myself, in this day and age any police officers who would knowingly violate a person's civil rights -- even under the guise of heightened security -- have left themselves open to a personal lawsuit. Your rights were violated in the following ways:
1. Being detained for over an hour without breaking any law
2. Having your personal property destroyed (your photographic images) by coercion
3. The threat of taking your personal property (camera) without a warrant
4. The mention of taking you someplace for further interrogation without any probable cause
You say you are not a citizen of the U.S., but you are still under the protection of the U.S. Constitution. The least you can do is file a complaint with the Bayonne Police Dept. and N.J. Transit. Also, I don't know your country of origin, but I would notify the Embassy and file a formal complaint with them. Most importantly, I would contact the newspapers -- your best bet would be the Newark Star Ledger. I'm sure they would be very interested in your experience.
The worst thing you can do is nothing.
The trooper then brought me to the MTA Police at
Penn Station, saying that "We have to make sure
that you are not a threat, since you have all
this information." I WAS NOT HANDCUFFED, BUT I
WAS SEARCHED. THE COPS TREATED ME NICELY AND DID
NOT EVEN LAY A HAND ON ME IN THE OFFICE. I WAS
RELEASED 3 HOURS LATER AFTER THEY SPOKE TO MY
FATHER. You can reach Sgt. Howell at
(212)878-1000 and he'll tell you which trooper
pulled me over on the LIRR train.
The police ended up calling my parents. They even
sent troopers to my house and took down my whole
family's information and my parents think that I
am a criminal and terrorist. My parents are so
upset and said "IF SOMETHING HAPPENS ON AT PENN
STATION, THEY CAN COME AND LOOK FOR YOU AT OUR
HOUSE!!!!!!"
I was cleared, but I feel like my civil rights
and my constitutional amendments were VIOLATED.
My parents told me NOT to sue to or even speak to
a lawyer, otherwise they’ll end up charging me a
fortune. I CANNOT afford a lawyer and DO NOT want
to end up paying back everything if I loose a
lawsuit in civil court. I am currently on
Medicaid because of my low income.
If someone needs to call me, please tell them NOT
to call my work # except from 2pm to 3pm, since
that is my lunch hour and my boss DOES NOT want
me to receive any personal calls when I am
working. Please RSVP as soon as possible by
e-mail or writing.
Thank you very much for your time and cooperation
and have a wonderful day.
James S. Li
qcdmc2000@yahoo.com
(718)441-2758
""Your liberty just doesn't happen to extend to taking pictures here." (OK, OK, the actual phrase used was "you guys can't take pictures here.")"
"calling Al Qaeda Directory Assistance (or so I believe) to see if we happened to be listed"
"you shall reply: "I am taking pictures of soft targets." Got that? Good."
Since you are not a citizen, I'll explain something about the US that it has in common with the rest of the world: non-citizens do not have the same rights as non-citizens. Nor do you have the same civil liberties as a citizen.
It sounds like you, as a non-citizen, purposely went out of your way to bait and test the secuirity officials. This is a standard tactic of Al Qaeda and other terrorist/criminal/covert groups.
What amazes me is that you are encouraging people to probe and weaken security for you. Remember it was the repeated use of the "I'd love to see the inside of a cockpit" followed by the "I think I dropped something up there" that let the 9/11 terrorists plan and develope thier plan.
My opinion of your current activies is that you are either a jack-ass kid being a jack-ass kid (We understand we were all jack-asses as kids), or you are an outsider with something against America and it's governemnt. If it's the former, then please grow up and realize that there is some major stuff that has and continues to go down that is over your head. If it's that latter, then either become a citizen so you can "vote the bastards out of office", obey the current laws or leave the country.
If you continue to act-out, I wouldn't play the rebel thing too much, your rights as a non-citizen are not the same as a citizen. You could find yourself in a small room with men wearing bad suits for a couple of days, followed by a one way plain ticket. America is a great place with many freedeoms, but as in the rest of the world: Freedoms are not absolute.
So people who aren't U.S. citizens have no rights when confronted by the police? That's a frightening thought.
Lawful permanent non-citizen residents of the United States have all the rights of due process of the law that citizens have.
And if Stefan is from Germany, they have due process of law there too nowadays.
But not free speach.
But not free speach.
The world's freest countries, according to Freedomhouse.org:
Andorra, Australia, Austria, Bahamas, Barbados, Belgium, Canada, Cape Verde, Chile, Cyprus, Denmark, Dominica, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Kiribati, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Malta, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Palau, Portugal, San Marino, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Tuvalu, United Kingdom, United States, and Uruguay.
As you see, Germany is considered as free as the United States.
(By the way, the least free countries are Burma, Cuba, North Korea, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, and Turkmenistan).
Given their history, it's an understandable restriction.
Very true.
An interesting aspect of the Freedomhouse.org survery is that there are a number of countries which get the highest possible rating (1 on a scape of 1 - 7)for political rights, but a slightly lower 2 rating for civil liberties: Belize, Bulgaria, Costa Rica, Czech Republic, Estonia, Greece, Grenada, Hungary, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania
So non-citizens have no rights? If the government just decides one day to deport every single lawful non-citizen, regardless of their reason for being there (student visa, work visa, visiting family), you'd have no problem with that?
If the government just decided to round up every single lawful non-citizen and send them to Parts Unknown without criminal charge for an indeterminate period of time, you'd have no problem with that? Oh wait, they already are doing that to some people...
>>And from what you're saying I doubt you'd get the same nice, respectful treatment in your country.<<
So can our motto be, "Hey, we're not nearly as bad as Saddam Hussein." Or Kim Jong-Il, or Robert Mugabe, or Moammar Qad'hafi, or Pinochet, or Ceaucescu, Milosevic, or Idi Amin, the House of Saud, or whatever other despotic regime of choice.
Weekday boardings are averaging an estimated 2,320, exceeding consultants' projections that it would take until 2010 to exceed 2,000 weekday boardings.
From Link's debut Aug. 23, 2003, to Dec. 31, Link carried an estimated 267,000 riders between the Tacoma Dome Station and the city's Theater District.
So far this year, Sound Transit estimates that more than 235,000 riders have used the system.
Actual ridership is part head count and part guesswork because the streetcar is free. Streetcar operators count the number of people waiting at each stop and write them down most days. There are two entrances on the passenger trains, and drivers don't count the actual number of people who get on the train.
Voters in Pierce, King and Snohomish counties approved the $4 billion initiative to create Sound Transit in 1996. The agency is charged with providing commuter rail, light rail and express buses. The bulk of its funding comes from local taxes, including a 0.4 percent sales tax and a 0.3 percent vehicle license tax.
Aaron Corvin, The News Tribune
Movie:
Train departing (Windows Media, 5.6MB)
Photos:
Ya know if you'd had gotten the Slant running on the D I would call you the greatest SubTalker ever. But you didn't. So you suck. ;-)
What's with the terminals? It says BPB-CI but it is going to/from neither of those.
W Bwy
I staked out the Yankee Stadium station at the end of the game today and was able to ride a Yankee Special. An empty R-68 rolled in and I knew it was it.
We skipped 155th-8th avenue, but ran local on CPW and 6th avenue.
The C/R at 135th slipped up and said: "This is a brook.. This is a local D train, the next stop is 125th street."
"This is a local D train" was the line the C/R gave during the whole trip. She didn't announce where the train was going until we got to 47th-50th where she said the train was going to run local and then terminate at 2nd avenue.
The first car never really got crowded, but the middle of the train sure was at the start because that's where the staircases are at 161st street. I'm assuming the train caters to Upper West Side residents who go to Yankee games. While at 81st street, a regular D passed us by on the express track and blew the horn.
A few pics from 2nd avenue:
Yes they did. I guess the TA figures Brooklynites don't go to Yanks games now. In other words, they just don't care. Extra service for Manhattan only.
How crowded were the Brooklyn bound platforms after the D Specials discharged?
Not very. We didn't take away service from the regular D train. We were simply inserted into a gap in D train service, which has slots for extra trains on the weekend.
We were an "extra" train, not a train taken away from the regular D service.
I was thinking maybe the D specials don't go to Brooklyn because it was observed that many of the riders got off in Manhattan. I can think of a few reasons why they'd avoid sending them to Brooklyn unless the ridership required it.
Anyone have any light to shed on this?
btw, the platform sign at York St. is saying F goes to coney Island already last week, I don't know if it stayed that way or had recently changed
One thing to note... Trains through 22nd avenue were absolutely flying! I barely had time to get up from taking the approach shot to get set to take the tailing shot of the same train!
The man on the opposite platform was lost. Apparently the platform was not roped off.
Apparently there was a switch there, and now it's not there. Anyone know when and why that switch was taken out?
subfan
There does't look like there was ever any trackage there. Look at other places where tracks have been removed and even painted over. There's some evidence of where the ties existed. However, this is no evidence there.
wayne
Thw man on the closed platform probably tore down the barricade on the staircase and went upstairs to wait for the train. After 2-3 trains passed him, he finally go the idea that something was up. Probably called the agent in the booth a few choice words for not "telling" him anything.
Molson Triple Quintuple X, although Jack doesn't sound all that bad either....
Okay, the man and his wife sue everyone in sight. They are awarded over $2 million including 2 payments of $500 thousand each to the wife for loss of her husband's SERVICES for the present and after his death. On appeal, the award to the wife is reduced by $800,000.00 so she gets 2 payments of $100,000 each. The injured man still gets about $1.3 mil.
Now guess who is at fault?:
[ ] The motorcyclist
[ ] The City of NY
[ ] The MTA NYC Transit
[ ] The injured man
[ ] All of the above
[ ] None of the above
Hint: Fault was apportioned.
It wasn't all of them.
It wasn't none of them.
The City of NY, who was responsible for the inoperative streetlight was found to be blameless.
The motorcyclist was found to be blameless, too
The victim was found to be partially responsible.
But the NYC Transit was found liable because by putting a bus stop under an inoperative streetlight, the judge said that the TA failed to provide a safe place for the customer to get off the bus.
I kid you not. All I can say is "Stick a fork in our society. We are done".
I want to see tort law reform, not to get big companies out of reasonable liabilities, but to get rid of the stupid stuff like this! Even if there is liability for the light (which I would personally not allow: if a 78-year old knows he can’t see very well in the dark, why doesn’t he walk along the sidewalk until he gets to another light?), shouldn’t it be the city’s responsibility?
I presume that the doctrine of big pockets applied here!
That said, the real problem here is the constant efforts at shifting blame and concurrent unwillingness to be accountable.
The light was out--why?, how long? Are we talking blown circuit, burned out lamp, or bad ballast? If not the breaker, why hadn't the ballast/lamp been serviced? I have five dollars which say the light had been out the previous several times the driver worked that route. Was it called in? Not likely because the experience is that noone in MTA wanted to field that call and NYCDOT ditto. So the demoralised driver knows better than to be perceived as a troublemaker by complaining and we end up with a disaster. Of course if NYCDOT were well enough funded (or spent its money wisely enough) the lamps would be serviced more promptly. In turn, if they could not do the repair in a timely fashion a bulletin to MTA suspending the stop at night would do. You see all of this requires initiative and attention to detail, and we ALL fail sometimes.
As to apportioning the costs, of course the cyclist's insurance should pat, but I believe the origin of going after every possible defendant was situations where the most guilty (surprise) had no means and the injuries were horrendous. For starters, if we had total health coverage as a HUMAN rught the medical cost issue would be moot.
And a final caveat, some reform is necessary in my view, BUT the demands from the corporate criminals (chemical contaminators etc) trying to weasel must be resisted.
Somewhere along the line this figures into the current $2 fare. Which means all of us are paying for that lawsuit.
Bill "Nekirk"
Since when has the farebox fully supported public transit in NYC? The taxpayer covers the TA's operating shortfalls. Since we also hired the yo-yos who didn't fix the broken light, we are all responsible.
If we don't like things like this coming out of our pockets, we should do something about the low quality of the govt.
Destinations signs you will either never see or not see every day;
DCP01887.JPG
DCP01893.JPG
DCP01898.JPG
DCP01899.JPG
WMATA is animal friendly.
DCP01916.JPG
John
Mom and Dad Canadian gees and their four little goslings. What was really amusing was watching the young jumping across the flange slot in the road crossing. Most of the goslings fell in to flange slot as they crossed the tracks.
John
I spoke to one of the competitors just before he boarded the train. He showed me his laminated destination code cards Dulles Airport (34) and Dulles Yard (93) were on his cards. He went on to tell me that the cards were a year old.
John
Let us know if you upload any other pictures, I would be interested in seeing them.
I did not notice if he changed the signs when he when he keyed up the train when he did his competition run.
Let us know if you upload any other pictures, I would be interested in seeing them.
Most of the rest of the shoots I took were more of the same stuff I took last year or were not good enough for publishing.
John
Today I saw an Av-X bound F train at 7th Av and a lot of people switching back to the Queens-bound train I was on, and later I checked the MTA's site and it said Av-X bound trains run express From Jay Street to Church Av this weekend.
I'm gonna check it out tomorrow, I've never seen those express tracks, and hopefully I'll be on an R-32.
Chuck
:-)
-Chris
Chuck
Just like comparing the LIRR or NJT to the toy railway that they have in Cantabria.
Mark
Mark
1. The IRT West Side ML (1/9) The 1-9 is the backbone of the West Side-making all local stops in a heavily crowded and growing area.
2. WMATA Red-it is the only route that does not share trackage with others and goes to many imporatnt destinations the 4 others don't.
3. MBTA Red line-orignal Cambridge-Dorchester line is one of the MBTA north-south main lines (the Orange line the other). Making stops at Harvard/MIT, Park St, South Station (hub of Amtrak's Acela & Regional/Northeastdirect service) among others (including the famous Mattapan PCC line), the Red line is the main routes through the Boston.
4. Chicago Red-another north-south line, with 24-hour service.
Matt
Matt
In Manhattan alone, excluding transfer points, the 1/2/3/9 had 156,322,168 fare registrations in 2000.
In terms of trains, the local track carries 20 trains per hour, 10 cars per train, during the morning rush, and the local track has a similar number, perhaps a bit higher. And they're crowded. Very crowded.
In each direction, that is.
These two lines may not be the most important red lines, but they were important to the redevelopment of that area.
And how could you not admire this?
-Chris
I started at Metropolitan Avenue and continued along the line to Fresh Pond Road, Forest and Seneca Avenues, and wound up at Broadway and Myrtle Av
Enjoy! I sure did.
Your pal,
Fred
Until Next time....
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Your pal,
Fred
(what the hell is a Dublic School?)
There's an engraved stone sign on the Forest Av side and the hoop on the letter P is a bit large so it looks like a D. Cracked my former bride and I up. We're a bit 'tetched'.
Your pal,
Fred
The appliance store you are referring to, Karl, is Schumacher's which is still in business. Nagengast is also still in business. I was surprised as I thought all of these kinds of stores were wiped out with the rise of the super electronics and hardware stores. I also got all my car models in the 60s from Nagengast. P.S. 93 is now I.S. (intermediate school) 93. Before the MetroMall was built in 1975, to the right of the Metro station, we used to play in the old Western Electric property.
And you'd be happy to know that Forest Pork Store is still alive and well at the same location, still great food, and right down to the old walking neon pigs walking under it's sign.
Great place and it is indeed at the corner of Forest and Woodbine.
Your pal,
Specki
Please see my "More Fun in Ritchwoot" post.
Chuck
All routes the same except:
1) The M would be a shuttle, Metro to Myrtle, all times.
2) The B and D would terminate at 34 St or 2nd Ave.
3) The W would be eliminated.
4) The N and Q would join the R through the Montague tunnel.
5) The 9 would be eliminated, and the 1 would be broken up into two sections on each side of the Broadway bridge. Being unfamiliar with the track layout, I can't give exact stations.
6) The J would relay the same way it does now when there's no Williamsburg Bridge, and the Z would be eliminated.
B: 145 or BPB to 34/6 only, no Brooklyn service
D: 205 to 34/6 only.
G: All trains to 71/FH,
F: Alternate F trains via. Croostown from Bergen St to Queens Plaza to assist with crowding from suspended J/M/Z service via. bridge
N: 86th St via. Montague tunnel to Astoria
J: 2 sections: From Jamaica Center to Hewes (Marcy Ave after Manhattan bound side reopens), plus shuttle from Essex to Broad/Chambers. Shuttle buses from Hewes to Lorimer for G and some rerouted F trains
M: Metropolitan to Broadway-Myrtle, all times
Q: Broadway to 71/Continental via. Montague tunnel
R: shuttle from 95 to 59/4 all times.
V: SUSPENDED
W: Stillwell to 57/7 via. West End line and Montague tunnel, Local in Brooklyn, express Canal to 57/7.
Z: SUSPENDED
All other routes not mentioned are not affected and no change is necessary.
9: SUSPENDED.
As a precautionary mesaure, Metro-North Hudson train bypass Marble-Hill station and transfer to shuttle buses from #1 train can be made at University Heights station.
That takes care of that problem.
(1) 215 - SF (all stops, bustitution North of 215)
(9) suspended
2-3, 4-5-6, 7, 42nd St Shuttle unchanged
IND
(B)(D) 205/BPB/145 - Herald Sq
(F) unchanged
(G) extended to Church Av
(V) extended to Church Av
A-C-E-S unchanged
BMT (South)
(B) suspended
(D) shuttle Pacific - CI
(N) via Tunnel (4th Av LOCAL)
(Q) via Tunnel
(W) suspended
R, Franklin Shuttle unchanged
BMT (East)
(J) Myrtle - Jamaica (all stops)
(M) Marcy - Metropolitan (all stops)
(L) increased service
(Z) suspended
Nassau St Line closed: use 4-5-6 instead.
1: 215 St-South Ferry. B'way-7th Ave Local
9: 242 St- 225 Street. Local.
SEVERAL articulated free shuttle busses between 225 and 215 St.
B: 21 St Queensbridge-Kings Highway. Exp 34th-W.4th then near B'way Lafayette switch to F. Culver Express from Jay Street (or from Smith-9th, whatever's possible) to Kings Highway. People on 63rd line looking for Queens service can either hop on a connecting bus to Queens Plaza or take the B backwards to Rock. Ctr for the F. Weekend and late nights, B runs only between 21 St and 2 Ave.
D: 205 Street-B'way Lafayette. Express 145-W.4th Street. Local all times north of 145. If the MTA ever decides to put a crossover switch north of Grand I'd extend it to Grand.
F: Same as now except F runs through 53rd Street Tunnel.
V: Eliminated.
Close Grand Street
G: 71 Av-Church Ave via Crosstown and Culver and Queens Blvd Local. Free metrocard transfer between Broadway on the G and Lorimer on the J. G would be 600 foot trains.
J: Jamaica Center-Marcy Ave via Jamaica/B'way El Local.
M: Metropolitan Av-Myrtle Av.
Free articulated shuttle bus between Marcy and Essex for those that have to cross the Williamsburg.
N: Pacific St-86th via 4th Ave Exp and Sea Beach. Would urge those from about 18th Ave south on the Sea Beach to use the Culver.
Q: 57 Street-CI via B'way Express (local between Canal and DeKalb), Montague Tunnel and Brighton Local. Would STRONGLY urge Brighton riders to use the Culver.
Free metrocard transfer between Jay Street and Lawrence Street- Metrotech.
R: The same as now
W: Ditmars Blvd-CI via 4th Ave Exp, Montague, Broadway Lcl, and Astoria Local and West End Local.
Z: Broad Street-Essex Street.
8-o
Robert
David
Yes, up 6th Ave, not Broadway.
David
Nah, that last one's just too much.
They need to seriously consider rotating future Games among cities with existing facilities.
Yeah, and even then, the roof was supposed to be retractable (a giant tower would lift it off, but that never worked, so the roof has become permanent.
wayne
Zach
D to Brighton Beach!!
Trains. What is those? weed rather beet around the bush: who knows maybe some rhubarb will come of it.
: )-
Da Hui
#3 West End Jeff
Chuck
There will probably also be some additional shifts between the other lines to spread the spare ratios evenly. The S will pbobably be given a dedicated set of 20 R62a's.
Being the first shell was delivered to Yonkers not even a month ago, it is doubtfull any have made it in to service yet. That would be just too fast.
The question is: what data have they given us that would substantiate a minimum of four minutes' savings per customer per trip? These are the only hard data offered:
The sharp curve requires slow train operation into the station, reducing travel speed by 30-60 seconds. Let's generously assume 60.
It takes about 5 seconds to deploy the gap fillers, and about 10 seconds to retract them, for a "delay penalty" of 15 seconds in total.
"Recovery time" is built into the schedule at chambers street, averaging 0.7 minutes (42 seconds) southbound and 1.8 minutes (108 seconds) northbound.
Southbound trains frequently provide longer dwell times at Chambers Street [sic] to allow passengers to move up to the first five cars. This extra dwell time is not quantified in the DEA, and apparently is partly redundant to the "recovery time" mentioned above.
Add it all up, and the guaranteed time savings is, at best, 60 + 15 + 108 seconds, or a shade over three minutes.
But wait! In lieu of "recovery time" at Chambers Street, recovery time will now be built into the schedule at South Ferry. Trains arriving there won't leave instantaneously. The crew needs to change ends, the brakes need to be recharged, and so forth. So, from the three minutes allegedly saved, you must subtract the planned recovery time at the new South Ferry Terminal, which is not quantified, but which one must assume is at least ninety seconds.
Therefore, the typical amount of time saved per trip can't be much better than 1.5 minutes. From the data presented, I can't see how they possibly get to 4-6 minutes per trip. While I can't agree with those who've posted here that the design will reduce the capacity of the line, I don't see how it will increase it to the extent claimed.
I would add that the current planned recovery time at Chambers Street isn't necessarily a bad thing, as it increases the possibility that northbound (2) and (3) riders who transfer to the local will find a train already waiting for them. Those who boarded the local at South Ferry are made to wait a minute or two, but they would have waited anyway. The MTA isn't proposing to eliminate recovery time from the route, but merely to transfer it from Chambers Street to South Ferry.
Incidentally, the DEA presents many other benefits of the new terminal, and most of them are entirely sound. I remain skeptical of whether this project is a worthy use of 9/11 recovery money, but no doubt it is a worthy undertaking. However, the claimed time savings benefits don't appear to add up.
Going southbound you might save perhaps 2 minutes or so since the train can hightail it straight to SF instead of waiting at Chambers. On the other hand, coming fro way uptown I'm almost always on a downtown express, and often the local will be waiting across the platform - under the new plan that train would already be en route to SF.
Going northbound it doesn't seem there's much savings at all. Most of the SF curve is encountered *after* making the station stop, so that's where a lot of the delay is. But under the current system, the train hightails it to Chambers, where it waits, where transfer can be made between the local and express. If the train's sitting at SF for the same length of time, then no such transfer can be made.
I also didn't find any specific arguments as to why no sort of platform extension model was found to be satisfactory other than "this plan was not found satisfactory." Building a new SF station is a solution awaiting a problem.
This argument that the temporary memorial for 9/11 needs to be moved is a week arguement. People will still come to see it and pay thier respects if they moved it to the other side of the park
Start the building. We need the improvement and the tax dollars the project will generate with federal money
Agreed. There are no trees from 1625 here; Battery Park was built on landfill. The loss of a tree, and its replacement by a new one, hurts for about 10-15 years. Objection to tree loss is just another example of the preferences of those who don't have a long term committment to the city, like high debts and rich pensions combined with limited infrastructure improvments and lower wages for future employees.
There is no comparison between a 15 year old tree and a 50 year old tree in terms of majesty and pleasant shade. To my mind trees are a valid issue, though not the only one. I have lived in the city for 30 years and expect to live here another 40, and trees are very important to me.
I don't know about Battery Park, but too often agencies are too lazy to think of a way to preserve the bits of nature we have. At first the Union Square renovation was going to obliterate some beautiful old trees, but with enough complaints they figured out a way to save them. I haven't heard anyone here complain that transit objectives were damaged.
In this case, that could easily be true. I just object to the theory that 50 or 100 year old trees have no significant value.
Mature trees indeed do have a significant value, if for no other reason than that they cannot be replaced for many years.
Makes you wonder. The platform extension option would save a lot of money, and a lot of construction time, while solving the most important problem -- only half the train platforms. But the curve itself increases operating costs -- rails have to be replaced more often, the platform extenders need to be serviced, OPTO -- if it ever arrives -- would require a conductor on a platform because of the curve. Perhaps these costs are real, while the federal funding for the new station seems free.
I'm not sure that's the most important problem; it's certainly not the only one. Among the others listed are: the extra time it takes to enter and leave the station (exaggerated in the DEA, but relevant nonetheless); a station with just one exit, and that a relatively narrow staircase; no ADA compliance; lack of operational flexibility to take trains out of service, or to have more than one train in the station.
I can't see that a terminal station with no tail tracks would allow faster entry and exit.
(a station with just one exit, and that a relatively narrow staircase; no ADA compliance;)
The station should be rehabbed and modernized, no question, and the half-platform issue should be solved. That doesn't require a new station.
(Lack of operational flexibility to take trains out of service, or to have more than one train in the station.)
That may be an added benefit to the proposed new configuration.
The proposed design does, in fact, have tail tracks.
More than one train in the station? How about using the inner loop? Sure, the train can't platform, but if it has to be kept out of the way that's a good place to put it without interfering with revenue service.
wayne
Which pisses off passengers on the 1 train more than it pleases arriving express passengers. This is one of the reasons MTA feels comfortable dispensing with it. Given a good frequency of trains, arriving express passengers will catch their local soon enough.
"I also didn't find any specific arguments as to why no sort of platform extension model was found to be satisfactory other than "this plan was not found satisfactory."
Here you may have a point. They should have elaborated.
I guess their version of the alternative doesn't include an elevator. No reason it couldn't.
But, under the platform extension plan it seems at least the last 2 cars will not require gap fillers, so those can be the "handicapped accessible" entrances. Alternately, the gap fillers could be modified (at additional expense, of course) - if the mind of man is insufficiently ingenious to develop a platform that moves 18 inches and is wheelchair accessible, then we're in big trouble as a species...
You missed the other delay factors such as.... passengers who didn't get into the first five cars... and that one trains will frequently bunch at South Ferry. Which adds maybe another 45-60 seconds of delays, putting it at over 4 minutes. If you sit at South Ferry during the rush hours, you see literarlly one 1 train after another. So you're going to sit there waiting.
Now you got your 4 minutes.
The DEA claims that "all customers would benefit from an average of almost four minutes" (emphasis added). Not all customers fail to move to the first five cars, so this savings isn't isn't part of the 4 minutes. (The DEA said that some customers would save as much as 6 minutes.)
The DEA also says that southbound trains frequently wait at Chambers Street, to avoid further "bunching" at South Ferry. If there is additional wait time elsewhere on the line, the DEA did not say so. From the data they presented, you can't get to an average savings of 4 minutes per person per trip, which is the claim they're making.
The tph remains UNCHANGED... They are not talking about train frequency (Which is controled by the limits of the Van Courtlandt station anyway.)
They are talking about people and movement improvements between the train and the boat.
Which is ALSO BOGUS, since they ain't changing the frequency of the obats either.
So their "Time Savings" sad to say are ALL BOGUS, and a Male Bovine By-Product-poo.
Elias
The proposed design has tail tracks, which means it will be able to turn trains as fast as Times Square on the 7. Assuming the new station gets built, the northern terminus at 242/VCP will be the line's bottleneck.
I'm pretty sure there are none. The original plan had them, but it placed the station a long way from the ferry terminal, and would have required many more trees to be removed. The proposed plan is hard by the harbor, with no tail tracks, unless there was a subsequent revision.
I'm pretty sure there are none. The original plan had them, but it placed the station a long way from the ferry terminal, and would have required many more trees to be removed. The proposed plan is hard by the harbor, with no tail tracks, unless there was a subsequent revision.
My source is the Draft Environmental Assessment posted on the MTA website. The tail tracks are there. The proposed plan is not "hard by the harbor."
The tail tracks at Times Square about 500 feet long. If the tail tracks in the proposed terminal aren't about the same lengths, then there's no comparison.
Stephen Bauman has compared the proposed South Ferry terminal to Jamaica Center. Both have tail tracks (if anything, Jamaica Center's seem to be longer) and both apparently have similarly placed crossovers. Jamaica Center handles a maximum of 12 tph.
F.Y.I. from what various people who told me the tail tracks on the E line go 3000 ft past the station. J line I couldn't tell you.
Figure 5 shows the location of the station, the crossover switch and the lack of tail tracks.
One can use Acrobat to copy this entire graphic and paste it into a pixel editing application, e.g. Corel PhotoPaint. One can then use the pixel editor's color replacement tool to remove some of the background colors for the park to make the track and station area clearer.
One can then import the cleaned up pixel image and import it into a vector drawing package, e.g. Corel Draw. Then using the measurement tool, one can accurately measure platform length and the distance of the switch from the station platform against the scale shown in the figure.
If one does this, one would find that the platform length is approximately 523 feet long and that the switch is approximately 374 feet from the station entrance. As a final sanity check, one should also measure the length of the Whitehall St platform. This comes to 620 feet and gives some idea regarding the accuracy of this procedure.
The platform length is entirely consistent with a 10-car IRT platform ending in a bumper block.
As a final check one should compare Fig. 5 with Appendix C - Figure 3 to make sure that the entire project boundary ends with the station. One can repeat the measurement technique and come up with the same result regarding platform length and distance from the switch.
1. The Legend Reads "Conceptiual Plan" meaning it aint a finished plan, just a concept, not all details are shown.
2. Assuming that it is somewhat lower than the BMT Line, there is plenty of room to add tail tracks.
3. With a little more construction width, there ought to be plenty of room to build the flying crossover that I have suggested.
Elias
All the diagrams (see fig 3 in Appendix C) are pretty specific on the project boundary. The project appears to be the south end of the station. If you find solace in the "Conceptual Plan", then you will get apoplexy because fig 3 states: "Final Draft".
2. Assuming that it is somewhat lower than the BMT Line, there is plenty of room to add tail tracks.
Even if it were, extending tail tracks under the BMT would involve a large underpinning expense.
Besides, the emergency stopping distance at 40 mph is 495 feet (including 35% safety margin). That would put the tail tracks past the water line, if the tracks were extended from what appears to be the south end of the platform.
OTOH, if the platform were moved further north, then the station platform would be a couple of blocks from the ferry.
The MTA's response to this dilemma appears to be not including terminal and by extension line capacity as one of the design criteria.
Yup... The Final *draft* of the Conceptual Plan.
You should see how many "Final Drifts" it takes to build a warship!
No wonder the damn things cost so much and take forever to build.
Elias
Correct, curving toward the LIRR ROW it at one time was supposed to climb onto.
The J line has tail tracks going straight east under Archer Av, for the length of at least one full train (700 feet?)
With a decent set of tail tracks, trains could fly in and out of such a station.
Elias
With a decent set of tail tracks, trains could fly in and out of such a station.
Elias
Delays at Chambers St s/b have been created by Transit, since the A Div ACTO has tossed the 1 Line Memo which allowed C/Rs to let customers pass through their position at Rector and South Ferry.
As someone else noted, teh gap fillers are responsible for about 20 seconds of 'delay' time. And, in 13 years of living in SI, I've known them to fail twice, as opposed to those at Union Sq, which I've known to fail many more times.
WTF? You are confused.
Besides the point is, a 1 track loop is outdated terminal. It's a lot of noise as well.
ALL BOGUS POINTS.
Even most people opposed to the project consider South Ferry to be antiquated. The only people who think the station is great are the rail buffs who post here, including you apparently.
The signal system is designed to make it (nearly) impossible for a train to hit an obstruction, such as another train or a wall. If a terminal ends in a wall, the signal system must force trains to slow to a crawl -- otherwise, an out-of-control train could easily run into the station at full speed and ram into the wall. Timers (or AK signals) ensure that, if the train is tripped at any point on the approach, it will be moving slowly enough that the brakes will bring it to a safe stop before it hits the bumper block.
With sufficiently long tail tracks, the train doesn't encounter any timers until it's past the end of the platform -- i.e., under normal operating conditions, the train can enter the station at full speed. Plant trains on those tail tracks and the terminal becomes no better than (e.g.) the WTC terminal.
All I said is that there must be timers (or the like) approaching bumper blocks -- not that there can't be timers anywhere else. No terminal with bumper blocks and no tail tracks can possibly handle 26-28 tph; a well designed terminal with tail tracks (like Times Square) possibly could.
Leave SF as is.
It doesn't prove your point to show that SF is as bad as one of the least modern stations in the system.
Some rail buffs like to go into subway stations where they can get their eardrums blasted by express trains rolling through. While that may be an impressive event, it's not good for your hearing. The MTA's creation of a straight platform and other noise reduction methods are good for public health.
If I have to choose between preserving the hearing of people who use or work in the subway, and a few rail buffs' thrills, well, hey, to hell with the rail buffs. I'm just being honest.
I'm sorry if the current South Ferry station offends your sense of aesthetics, but a subway line is primarily a mode of transportation. Does the proposed terminal permit the 1 line to do a better job as a mode of transportation? Only once that question is answered in the affirmative do the other questions become at all relevant.
Modern subway systems, like WMATA, tend to have deep stations that take a long time to reach. I kind of like the outdated IRT model, with most stations one short flight down. Sometimes outdated works best.
I assuming (if and when we will ever see the first segment of the SAS in our lifetime), that the Second Ave subway line stations will not be too deep, at most 2-3 levels down.
Assuming your point, you can wipe out Jamaica-Van Wyck because it can take a good 30-45 seconds from the escalator to fare control alone.
Well, not just the IRT, although you are right it is typical of COntract One stations. However, many other stations have this design too. For example, many of the BMT Broadway Line stations such as 49th and 23rd, etc. As a general rule, IND stations take the longest to get from street level to platform level, certainly more on average than IRT or BMT stations.
Not according the depth of Jamaica-Van Wyck station.
As I said earlier, Jamaica-Van Wyck is not much deeper than your typical IRT local, or Lenox Ave station, but we agree it's a pain to walk up to 300 feet from either of the station's two exits to fare control.
They will, on average, be considerably deeper than most NYCT stations. This is partly because they want to bore through bedrock wherever possible, to avoid surface impacts. Also, there is a lot more infrastructure in place today than when the other lines were built. The SAS will generally pass beneath existing transit lines.
The shallowest SAS stations will be 116th, 106th and 96th, all at approx. 40 feet, because the existing cut-and-cover tunnels from the 1970s are at that depth. But half of the 16 stations will be at depths of 80 feet or more, and several will be at 100 feet or more. See Chapter 2, page 16, of the FEIS.
The FEIS says that all of them will have elevators, and I'm pretty sure it says escalators too. Clearly the deeper ones *must* have them. Even the shallower SAS stations are still deeper than the typical NYCT station. Also, most of the shallower ones are in Harlem, and I hardly need tell you what would happen if *only* the Harlem stations lacked escalators.
I agree with OakApple's reply to you.
I need to go back and look at the DEA specifics on how the new South Ferry station interacts with Whitehall. The question in my mind would be "Can a passenger using the ADA entrance at South Ferry then gain access to Whitehall Street platforms?" I don't remember if in those past posts I made reference to a desire for ADA compliant transfer from South Ferry to Whitehall St.
If conruction feasibility is an issue (when isn't it?) then having one common point for a wheelchair to get to the platforms, even if through a transfer, is better than no access at all.
Whatever is possible to do...
True, but this is not time a passenger spends waiting on the train to get to a destination. The passengers have already departed, so they don't care. The train recharge time does not count as far as passengers are concerned. It is crew business.
It's true that the recharge and turn time affects the frequency of departure . But if the departure schedule for the 1 train is the same after the station is rebuilt, then it doesn't matter.
"Therefore, the typical amount of time saved per trip can't be much better than 1.5 minutes."
False statement, as I have proved above. The TA is concerned about what a passenger experiences waiting on a train which is delayed in its journey south to the terminal.
"I would add that the current planned recovery time at Chambers Street isn't necessarily a bad thing, as it increases the possibility that northbound (2) and (3) riders who transfer to the local will find a train already waiting for them."
Maybe, if that happened consistently, but you have presented no data to support it.
"The MTA isn't proposing to eliminate recovery time from the route, but merely to transfer it from Chambers Street to South Ferry."
Yes, and that's a GOOD decision. They are eliminating recovery time from a point where passengers on a train feel inconvenienced to a point where they clearly do not.
You're confusing the issues, but the core of your argument is basically just a rail-buff type reaction to a proposed change in service. The only theoretical drawback to the plan is that railbuffs don't get to go around the Loop anymore. That's it.
Folks, read before you post. The document says that the loop track will be maintained.
I should have made that clear.
There is no crew change on the 5 at Bowling Green or South Ferry.
You need to look long term when the system will be operated automated where the need for crew end change and brake recahrge will no longer be and issue.
The MTA needs to break the unions objections and make both crew memebers able to drive the train eliminating some of the end change issues. The conductor would move to the front and make the change quicker
Why do they have BREAK the union. scab consultants like you who get fat by advising MANGEment on how to drive down the American standard of living are a huge threat in the crisis America faces. Good thing the MTA isn't buying. Increased automation is a good thing when the benefits are shared by labor and management. America's future depends on a strong labor movement that can work together with management to modernize workers' skills along with automation while those who advocate a headlong rush to destroy workers' jobs through automation deserve total boycott into insolvency.
Why do they have BREAK the union. scab consultants like you who get fat by advising MANGEment on how to drive down the American standard of living are a huge threat in the crisis America faces. Good thing the MTA isn't buying. Increased automation is a good thing when the benefits are shared by labor and management. America's future depends on a strong labor movement that can work together with management to modernize workers' skills along with automation while those who advocate a headlong rush to destroy workers' jobs through automation deserve total boycott into insolvency.
While we're on this subject, why does the crew change on the N train at Kings Highway take so long? The crew should be on the platform and ready to go when the train arrives.
Yadda yadda yadda...
The SCHEDULE of the (N) train does not require that kind of frequency.
One or two trains a day... what is that... why the rush?
: )-
One or two trains a day... what is that... why the rush? "
I am sureif you are a rider on that train you would feel differntly
I'm actually talking about the crew change made at Kings Highway going sothbound, where the train remains idle for a while before resuming the run to 86th St. with the new crew on board.
Thank you for posting that.
Let me put it in terms basic enough for you to understand.
Case #1: You wait for a train at South Ferry. It arrives, you board, and it leaves right away. At Chambers Street, you have an additional wait--what the DEA calls "recovery time." This is the status quo.
Case #2: You arrive at South Ferry, and the next northbound train is already in the station. However, it does not leave right away. You take your seat and wait for it to depart. Once it does depart, there is no wait at Chambers Street. This is the proposal.
Either way, you've waited. The only thing different is where you waited.
False statement, as I have proved above. The TA is concerned about what a passenger experiences waiting on a train which is delayed in its journey south to the terminal.
You've proved no such thing. Go ahead, read the DEA, and tell us how you get to 4-6 minutes saved. Remember, they're claiming this benefit will occur on every trip, not just southbound trips.
(Unlike some Subtalkers, I do not claim that there's some kind of conspiracy to lie about the numbers. I'm just observing that the actual claimed savings isn't substantiated in the document. Maybe the total savings is correct, and they've just failed to tell us how they arrived at it.)
Maybe, if that happened consistently, but you have presented no data to support it.
I'm not obligated to produce data. I am pointing out the lack of data to support the claimed 4-6 minute average savings on all trips. I didn't come up with that figure, they did. The actual numbers provided don't add up to that.
You're confusing the issues, but the core of your argument is basically just a rail-buff type reaction to a proposed change in service.
Incorrect. I'm adding up their own numbers, and they don't agree with the claimed total. This is grade-school arithmetic. Go ahead, read the numbers yourself, and tell us what you come up with. I already know the answer---you can't get there from the data provided.
Since he lives in Kansas City, maybe Dorothy can loan him a house and it gets hit by a tornado and he winds up in Emerald City.
I think Newkirk's post speaks for itself (and not well, but that Dave's responsibility).
You have been very civil and sensible as of late, and I like that. As a result, you've posted a lot more good information on Subtalk, which I've enjoyed reading.
True for the 25% who remain on the train at Chambers.
Untrue for the 75% who get off at Chambers. In the current arrangement, they don't have to wait.
Case #2: You arrive at South Ferry, and the next northbound train is already in the station. However, it does not leave right away. You take your seat and wait for it to depart. Once it does depart, there is no wait at Chambers Street. This is the proposal. "
Correct, and there's a difference. Passengers don't like having their train stop and then having to wait, ad wait for it to get going again.
Case #2 communicates that the train is not scheduled to leave yet. Passengers are a lot more comfortable with that, esp. if they know the frequency of departure to expect, than with case #1. That's why there is a difference between "passenger" and "railbuff."
You have made several claims for which you have no data. If you want to be taken seriously, you have to back up what you say, and you don't. Your arguments about the MTA's claims are clearly false, as I have again shown above.
I'm glad you don't see conspiracies, but your post still doesn't amount to much more than railbuff ranting, though you're polite about it. Your views, which you are welcome to express of course, have no connection to what passengers other than railbuffs care about.
If
However, the DEA says that these passengers will save 4-6 minutes.
It doesn't say what you're apparently saying---that passengers wait in either case, but that they prefer not to have their trip interrupted. You could be right about this passenger preference (and then again you could also be wrong), but it doesn't get us to 4-6 minutes saved per trip.
You have made several claims for which you have no data.
You're confusing me with Stephen Baumann. Stephen makes claims that have been verified by no one. It is reasonable to criticize him for lacking data---especially as the claims are so extraordinary.
I, on the other hand, am simply asking, "Where are the 4-6 minutes that the MTA claims every passenger will save?" I am further observing that, if you add up the numbers they've actually given, you don't get 4-6 minutes. As far as I can tell, you're not disputing this. It isn't for me to present any data, because 4-6 minutes are not my numbers to begin with.
Now, the 4-6 minutes may in fact be quite true. Unlike some conspiracy theorists, I am not accusing them of fraud. However, it's a fact that MTA officials have given different accounts to various reporters and community boards when asked what the time savings would be, so it's reasonable to ask where the 4-6 minutes come from, so that we can assess for ourselves how realistic it is.
...your post still doesn't amount to much more than railbuff ranting.
Actually, I am not a railbuff at all, but I do know how to add, and the numbers presented don't sum to 4-6 minutes. This is a pretty elementary point: either they sum to 4-6, or they don't. If you or anyone else out there can make the numbers add up to that, pray tell us how you accomplish it.
Actually, that's what it means.
"You could be right about this passenger preference (and then again you could also be wrong), but it doesn't get us to 4-6 minutes saved per trip."
Yes, it does, because any time spent waiting when you first board at South Ferry going northbound doesn't count. If you're the average commuter, you get to know when your train is leaving; you can decide whether or not to get that cup of coffee before you go down the stairs, or whether to leave the house earlier or later, etc. If you time it right, you'll board the train with maybe a minute to spare, and you're on your way.
Theoretically, you should be able to do that for a predictable waiting period elsewhere along the line. If you're a railbuff, you're doing the math in your head. Everybody else -no way. And you dare not leave the train for fear of it leaving without you...
"You have made several claims for which you have no data.
You're confusing me with Stephen Baumann."
No, I'm not. Actually, Stephen does use a lot of data. He often misapplies it or his translation to real practical use suffers a hiccup. His claims are extraordinary, it's true.
In this particular case, you have no data at all. But you can get data, and come back and post it. It may or may not back you up. I believe it will not, but you have ample opportunity to prove otherwise.
Forget the non-arithmetic you've been messing with here. Go back and find some real data.
I'm usually in one of the first rows of people getting off the boat, and if you've seen me walk, I like to keep up a good pace. I get on the train at SF, stand clear of the closing doors, hightail it up to Chambers, where I get off as fast as possible to transfer to the first uptown express that catches my fancy. Heading uptown I usually lap anywhere between 1 (weekends) to 4 (rush hours) locals, and then get back on the local at 96th.
Under the new plan, I would very likely miss that express I used to be able to catch, while I'm sitting there twiddling my thumbs in this train sitting in the station with the doors open. Depending on the combined 2-3 headways, I likely lose anywhere from 3 to 10 minutes under the new plan.
Is my experience universal? Of course not. But this is the way I feel, and judging from my cohorts deboarding the boat and then dumping the local for the express at Chambers, I'm certainly not the only one. My bottom line is, Chambers is a much better place to wait since transfer between the local and the express is available. I'm intelligent enough to see right through this charade of "it doesn't count if the train hasn't started going yet," and I suspect most customers are as well - the primary passenger load comes from people who get off the ferry, and the ferry arrives at a definite time, so from the time of the ferry's arrival to the time that the train departs (however long or short that is) for the most part you have a captive audience, sitting there twiddling their thumbs. They're going to have to wait somewhere anyway, so it might as well be at a transfer station.
You have no choice - it's either that or get run over by the cattle herd behind you...:0)
"Heading uptown I usually lap anywhere between 1 (weekends) to 4 (rush hours) locals, and then get back on the local at 96th."
You're going a long way. That's a very atypical commute on the West End IRT. It also means you have a lot of opportunity to lose time by waiting for a transfer.
"Under the new plan, I would very likely miss that express I used to be able to catch, while I'm sitting there twiddling my thumbs in this train sitting in the station with the doors open. Depending on the combined 2-3 headways, I likely lose anywhere from 3 to 10 minutes under the new plan. "
AsI said before, your commute is far from typical. But even you don't necessarily have to lose time.
You're assuming that the TA will not adjust the train departure schedules. You are welcome to bring this up at the hearing: If the TA matches the departure of the 1 more closely to the arrival of the ferry, then you're not sitting there twiddling your thumbs. That's easier to do and more appropriate than keeping an old station the way it is and inconveniencing a lot of other people.
Transit will NOT attempt to match subway departures to ferry arrivals. Look at current service on the late nights: ferry arrives every hour on the 27.5, train leaves SF at 28, 48 and 08. this leaves you 30 seconds to run from the front of the boat, under the terminal, around the construction zone, into the station, swipe, down the stairs.
Once we get to the height of rush hour, trains arrive (and depart) every 3 minutes, ferries every 15. Ferries have a 5 minute 'window' in which they show up. How do you schedule departures around arrivals that do that?
So it's already very tight!
"Once we get to the height of rush hour, trains arrive (and depart) every 3 minutes, ferries every 15. Ferries have a 5 minute 'window' in which they show up. How do you schedule departures around arrivals that do that?"
Good question. So you've answered my question (posted aftyer you posted), "Is it easier to adjust the subway or the ferry?" I suppose theanswer is neither, because of the inherent variability of the ferry."
Can the ferry not hew to a tighter than five minute window? Is that just not possible to do (due to boarding variability, tides, currents, weather etc.)?
It's the commute home when this is more likely to be an issue. In the morning, with trains five times more frequent than ferries, it's no great loss if you narrowly miss an uptown 1/9 train; another is very close behind. But on the way home, if you narrowly miss a ferry, you have at least a 15-minute wait--more than that if you're commuting off-peak.
No doubt many a ferry passenger has noticed this as the train sits at Chambers for people to move up to the first five cars.
Very nice observation on your part.
I agree that the northbound savings is de minimus, although RIB has been attempting strenuously to argue otherwise.
However, the savings southbound is genuine. According to the DEA, there will no longer be a hold at Chambers--it'll be just a normal stop, and the train will move on. Southbound customers will save some time, although perhaps not the 4-6 minutes claimed.
(2) Because the loop only platforms the first five cars, so as a courtesy to those not "in the know" the trains are held for a minute or so at Rector and Chambers to give the geese a chance to move forward.
(1) is a genuine problem, but (2) IMHO isn't. (2) only affects a small number of customers, and there are 3 potential solutions, starting in the order of the most generous:
(a) extend the existing loop platform so the holds are unnecessary
(b) allow the geese to walk through the train past the C/R's operating position - they used to be able to do just this, but more recently that hasn't been allowed, so the geese have to walk along the length of the platform.
(c) the hell with holds - tell them to get off, walk the length of the platform and take the next train - it's only a cost of a few minutes incurred for that small number of passengers during the day (as opposed to incurring a somewhat smaller cost for a much, much larger group of passengers), and at night and weekends, the C/R can hold for a minute or so if he/she sees passengers walking toward the front.
You omitted the most important parameter.
Your knowledge of maritime operationas is as superficial as your your knowledge of subway operations at South Ferry.
:0)
If one wants to establish any kind of transportation system, its schedule should be reliable. Therefore, vehicle/vessel size and power should be able to handle the normal variability that nature provides in the form of wind, currents and tides. Similarly vehicle/vessel design should and scheduled recovery should take care of any variablilty introduced by loading levels. Finally, management should make sure that the hired hands (crews) do not introduce so much variability so as to make scheduled operation unreliable.
These are the aspects that any decent ferry operation should account for as a matter of course. Anybody with a superficial understanding might consider these as legitimate reasons for not being able to hold a schedule. A ferry operator would not.
One factor that the ferry operator cannot control, that is fairly unpredictible, on a daily and hourly basis, is harbor traffic. This is especially true for the SI ferry because the St George terminal is at the entrance of the Kill Van Kull shipping channel. A freighter or tanker passing directly in front of the St. George terminal can easily delay a ferry from leaving the dock for five minutes.
I gather you haven't spent much time at the St. George terminal. :-)
It isn't a charade, and most customers don't really think that way. As I pointed out, if you know roughly when a train is leaving you can do other things before you go into the subway station (buy a newspaper, get a sweet roll etc.). Holding up a train at a transfer station when you can also wait on the same platform is an idea that is overdue to be discarded.
"for the most part you have a captive audience, sitting there twiddling their thumbs"
You obviously take these people for granted (that's the rail buff view). MTA does not.
I challenge you to find that anywhere in the DEA. A chapter and page number citation will suffice. I may not always agree with David of Broadway, but at least he says where he's getting his facts from.
I'm not even sure if you've read the DEA, but I have. It specifically says that the purported 4-6 minute savings includes access and egress time. It is not limited to close-of-doors to opening-of-doors.
It is really quite simple. The numbers add up to 4-6 minutes, or they don't. Right now they don't. Find it if you can.
In every MTA study that I have read, the time saved for commuters is measured by the total travel time. Not only does the South Ferry document explitly say this, but they always say this. I believe this is a Federal standard for transit studies.
So there can be no doubt that the 4-6 minute saving, whether real or not, is over the entire commute.
Agreed. But there is still room there for your misinterpretation, which I have demonstrated to you.
I won't belabor the point, bcause you've made up your mind - but when you're not in as defensive a mood, you might try reexamining the DEA and seeing what you learn.
Funny you're always telling other people what they need to learn. I call 'em as I see 'em. Is it so irrational to observe that the numbers don't add up?
It's defensive behavior when someone points out to you that you have not made an observation.
It's not in the DEA, nor does it have to be. The DEA doesn't have to offer you a citation for basic addition and subtraction either.
"It specifically says that the purported 4-6 minute savings includes access and egress time."
Time spent climbing stairs, descending stairs, using an elevator, riding the train etc. However, the time you arrive at a station is variable that you, the passenger, control (exception: Staten Island Ferry arrival), not the MTA, so that does not enter into MTA's calculation.
It is nobody's fault but your own if you hold a predetermined conclusion and then misinterpret data because you don't want to let go of a conclusion that neither MTA nor its customers accept. The MTA also assumes that people reading its documents can competently interpret data, but its executives understand that people will also come into this with preset agendas and unfortunately, as in your case, this lowers the level of debate due to the chicanery involved.
However, you have made a conribution here - MTA needs to adjust the departure schedule for the #1 train so that the lag between ferry arrival and train departure is shorter. Vice-versa is true too - how about having a train arrive followed by a sooner departure of the ferry?
Which brings us to another question: Would it be easier to adjust the ferry than the subway? And how tight would that connection be before people would complain "I don't have enough time to get to the train," esp. people who cannot walk quickly?
Bring all this up at the hearing. I hope you get to go.
Now, we finally have the first comment you've made on this subject that is accurate. You are absolutely right----they are not obligated to back up any of their claims. However, doing so inspires confidence in the result. Failing to do so undermines confidence. The SAS FEIS is a good example of a document that backs up its claims; this one does not.
>>>>"It specifically says that the purported 4-6 minute savings includes access and egress time." <<<<
Time spent climbing stairs, descending stairs, using an elevator, riding the train etc.
Correct again---you have accurately defined "access" and "egress." But if the purported 4-6 minute savings includes improvements to access, it would be most odd if the calculation of the commute time is interrputed for the 1-3 minutes the passenger sits waiting in the train, which you are claiming doesn't count against the time saved.
And as I noted in my follow-up, every MTA MIS/EIS/DEIS/FEIS I've read measures travel time, and time saved, against the total commute. Perhaps they changed their methodology for this one project, but it would be distinctly odd, especially as the SAS FEIS, published by the same transit authority in the same week, uses the traditional approach.
They do back up their claims. You're the one who's out in left field.
On subtalk it's harmless. But at places like public hearings or in MTA offices or with most other passengers, the kind of line of argument you follow leads to my hearing things like "It's the train geeks again," followed by a dismissal - an attitude which closes people's minds to you. I don't like it, and I don't abide by it, but after reading your posrs in this thread I understand where it comes from. People lose patience.
"Correct again---you have accurately defined "access" and "egress." But if the purported 4-6 minute savings includes improvements to access, it would be most odd if the calculation of the commute time is interrputed for the 1-3 minutes the passenger sits waiting in the train,"
Not odd at all, since (except for the Ferry) a passenger starting out at a terminal is in control of when he/she arrives at a station. Te same is not true later down the line, when you are part of the captive audience.
But let's say we include it with the Ferry, because Ferry passengers can be considered a captive audience. For a train leaving every 3-4 minutes the average waiting time would be about 1.5-2minutes minutes (and we know the Ferry's arrival has that 5 minute window inside of which there is variation).
So perhaps we claim that this reduces the time savings to 2 or 2.5 minutes to 4 or 4.5 minutes, somewhere in there?
Call MTA and see what they tell you about that. Or submit your claim for the record and see what the agency's response is when a final version is issued.
Time spent climbing stairs, descending stairs, using an elevator, riding the train etc.
Correct again---you have accurately defined "access" and "egress." But if the purported 4-6 minute savings includes improvements to access,
So here's one for you - the current SF station is one level below ground and is X many feet from the ferry terminal, with the "regular" exit (the one in the middle of the current platform) incorporated into the new Terminal building currently being constructed. The new SF station must be deeper than the current station (since the loop is being left intact) and the exit will be Y feet from the terminal (with Y being less than X by some indeterminate amount) - and not incorporated into the terminal building. Will the time saved by not crossing distance Y-X be greater than the time spent climbing from new depth of platform? If not access/egress time has grown not lessened.
Access time will grow regardless because the new Whitehall ferry terminal will be far less efficient in moving passengers from the ferry to the street.
Does anybody know of what sort of terminal building/station complex they are planning on building on top of this marvelous new station?
I should expect to see some airport style people movers. Something moving from the boat room directly to the platform areas. If they are thinking, to the northern end of the platform so that people will spread out on this train.
Elias
There is no above-ground terminal building associated with the South Ferry project. There will be three new entrances constructed, but none of them will have an actual "terminal building." Almost all of the South Ferry project is below ground.
And nobody going to save squat in time without such a contrivance.
Elias
And nobody going to save squat in time without such a contrivance.
It's not clear where you're proposing this people mover would go. The new entrance near Whitehall Ferry Terminal doesn't appear to leave ferry riders any worse off than they were before, although I agree that the improvement, if any, is not clear.
There will also be two newe entrances, which will actually make the station more convenient for certain riders (e.g., those working along the Water Street corridor). According to the DEA, only 43% of the station's users are from the Staten Island Ferry; the other 57% are going to, or coming from, elsewhere.
The new terminal will also be an improvement for Ferry riders who prefer the Broadway Line (as they won't have to cross the plaza at street level to get to their train), and it will be an improvement for Broadway Line riders coming from Brooklyn, who get a free transfer to the Seventh Avenue Line.
The Whitehall station is also supposed to develop an out-of-the-weather access to the Ferry Terminal Building as part of the ferry (DOT) project.
snip
Case #2 communicates that the train is not scheduled to leave yet. Passengers are a lot more comfortable with that, esp. if they know the frequency of departure to expect, than with case #1. That's why there is a difference between "passenger" and "railbuff."
Next time you come to NYC, hang out at 57/7 on the weekend and watch how many people get nutsy because the Q isn't leaving as soon as they get on it. I personally have been yelled at about this at least twice a month over the last few years. Assuming that I am not the only member of a train crew that this happens to, there are a fair number of people that want the train to move, schedule or no.
Advantages that new SF station has over Extended loop:
None
Advantages extended loop has over new station
Better capacity
Cheaper
Transfer at chambers
no or MUCH less construction conequences
So... WHY are we wasting money on this?
Advantages extended loop has over new station
Better capacity
Cheaper
Transfer at chambers
no or MUCH less construction conequences
So... WHY are we wasting money on this?
Come on lincoln! Bad form! You sound like Sheldon Silver
There are problems with an extended loop idea....
1. Continued use of Gap Fillers which mean if they break, they're are problems and they cost to maintain.
2. The curve will be still be a limiting factor
3. Since it's only 1 track bottlenecking will still occur during the rush hours, slowing down 1 line service.
If a two track is done, then the line will be able to keep their TPH higher. South Ferry Loop is the limitng factor of the entire 1 line. Replacing it with a two track terminal that can turn 26-28 TPH and a proper crew quarters will increase the capacity of the 1 line.
1. Straight Track
2. Two Tracks, so that 1 trains can enter and exit faster, and that crew changes can happen with out bottlenecking the line.
3. No gap fillers, cheaper station to maintain in the long run
4. SOUND REDUCTION! The decible levels at the South Ferry station are problematic.
5. A new tower can be built protecting Chambers Street interlocking, and the line south of Chambers, putting everything in 1 area, saving on costs even more.
It's a much better idea than extending the loop. You still keep the same problems, it's just now all 10 cars can discharge passengers. What happens if a train breaks down at South Ferry Loop? Remember before 9/11 there was no X crossover at Rector, so if a train broke down at South Ferry, there could be no service south of Chambers stopping the entire flow of the 7th Avenue line as 1 trains would have to turn at Chambers. With a two track terminal, if a train breaks down while in the station, the line doesn't stop. Flow can be maintained.
The Upper Level where the current 1 line is, can be made into the 5 Line Crew Changing area, where it doesn't have to change crew at Bowling Green preventing bottlenecking from occuring on the 4,5 lines.
Depends where. At Times Square on the 7, where a crew that's slow will screw up the whole line, they seem to be pretty good about closing the doors right away when the light goes on.
WRONG! Van Courtlandt Park is the LIMITING factor on the Broadway Lion!
Building a new durning loop north of 137th street, under the 137th Street Yard, will increase the capacity of the Broadway Lion, but ditzing at South Ferry Will not.
Elias
Ron is imaginary HIMSELF.
I ride this line regularly - walking through the train past the C/R USED to be done, but it most certainly is not anymore.
Crew changes on the 1 don't take place anywhere in Manhattan. The 1 doesn't terminate twice -- if anything, it could be said that it doesn't terminate at all until it returns to the Bronx.
Crew changes do not take place at Chambers St, the same way that crew changes do not take place on the 6 at Brooklyn Bridge.
A normal 1/9 line crew schedule would be 3 round trippers, with the crew taking it all the way to South Ferry and back before they can catch a break, or go on lunch before the next interval.
1. Continued use of Gap Fillers which mean if they break, they're are problems and they cost to maintain.
And switches and signals don't? You're replacing one set of mechanical things with another.
2. The curve will be still be a limiting factor
Trains go around curves all the time
3. Since it's only 1 track bottlenecking will still occur during the rush hours, slowing down 1 line service.
If a two track is done, then the line will be able to keep their TPH higher. South Ferry Loop is the limitng factor of the entire 1 line. Replacing it with a two track terminal that can turn 26-28 TPH and a proper crew quarters will increase the capacity of the 1 line.
The 1 line operates on a single track for its entire run, except at 242 St, which is where the real slow down occurs. there are only two terminals that turn more trains/hr than SF - Times Sq on the 7 and B'klyn Bridge on the 6. Funny, isn't it, how two of the top three terminals are LOOPS?
5. A new tower can be built protecting Chambers Street interlocking, and the line south of Chambers, putting everything in 1 area, saving on costs even more.
Fixing yet another problem that doesn't exist? Chambers, Rector and South Ferry interlockings are ALREADY controlled by the same tower.
What happens if a train breaks down at South Ferry Loop?
Everything terminates at Rector St.
Remember before 9/11 there was no X crossover at Rector, so if a train broke down at South Ferry, there could be no service south of Chambers stopping the entire flow of the 7th Avenue line as 1 trains would have to turn at Chambers.
Stop living in the past. The double crossover is there now. Prior to 9/11, there was a single switch, so they still could have turned trains at Rector - it just would have slowed things down.
With a two track terminal, if a train breaks down while in the station, the line doesn't stop. Flow can be maintained.
Flow can be maintained - but certainly not at the normal level. Since the same thing holds true now, no change there.
The Upper Level where the current 1 line is, can be made into the 5 Line Crew Changing area, where it doesn't have to change crew at Bowling Green preventing bottlenecking from occuring on the 4,5 lines.
Could somebody please search through the archives and see how many times people have been told that there is no crew change at South Ferry or Chambers on the 1, Bowling Green on the 5 or B'klyn Bridge on the 6. Since there are no crew changes at these locations, any bottlenecking is coming from somewhere else.
Could somebody please search through the archives and see how many times people have been told that there is no crew change at South Ferry or Chambers on the 1, Bowling Green on the 5 or B'klyn Bridge on the 6. Since there are no crew changes at these locations, any bottlenecking is coming from somewhere else.
I said it could be MADE in to a crew changing quarters. It would be more efficent, trains could dump and wait for dispatching. Lord knows how many times 4 trains are delayed south of bowling green. If Times Square can turn trains around effectively, then a two Track South Ferry Terminal could as well. Also remember we're trying to get people to the Ferry here, whats the use of a Crossover at Rector when they would have to walk the remainder of the way? We're trying to help people, and that certainly doesn't help. It just gets trains out of the way. Also the difference is with the 6, is that remember BB-City Hall is a 10 car station and two, it acts as a different type of loop station. The station is not on the loop, it can dump on 1 platform, loop, and then wait on the other platform. If South Ferry could be built that way, where the station is not on the loop and it can enter the station in a different if a train breaks down like if a train breaks down in the city hall loop, 6 trains could be sent down to South Ferry Inner loop, but it can STILL stop at it's station. The current south ferry is inadequet for that fact. You're stopping at Rector, inconvincing passengers. With the 6 you have a backup, 1 and 9, you don't. Brooklyn Bridge City hall style loop terminal system is how South Ferry should've been done. It acts as a two platform station without switches.
The 1 line has 37 stations, and 36 of them are not South Ferry. South Ferry is far from the busiest station on the line. (Peak loads are somewhere around 72nd Street.) Making South Ferry look pretty while reducing service to the other 36 stations is not an improvement.
They aren't going to send 1 trains through the old loop due to fumigation, because most people on the train at that point want to go to South Ferry. (Rector is a little-used station.)
Making South Ferry look pretty while reducing service to the other 36 stations is not an improvement.
While I have my concerns about the proposal, it will not reduce service to the other 36 stations.
Source? Or am I supposed to take the 24 tph claim at face value? The DEA doesn't even make a claim of capacity let alone attempt to support it.
As you know, I think there is a too little information in the DEA--that was the premise of this whole thread.
However, from the information provided, the new terminal appears to have a configuration no worse than that of 242/VCP, and possibly better (depending on the length of the overrun tracks, which is not stated in the document).
The comparative lack of detail is a legitimate complaint, but nothing in the doucment suggests that they're reducing the capacity of the line.
And depending on the switch location. Jamaica Center, which has tail tracks(!), handles only 12 tph.
Even if the new south terminal has the same capacity as the north terminal, that may not be sufficient to accomodate future growth. As I've said repeatedly, trains are currently crush loaded at 20 tph, so future services beyond 24 tph are hardly out of the question. There are at least two alternate north terminals; as a practical matter, there are no alternate south terminals.
The comparative lack of detail is a legitimate complaint, but nothing in the doucment suggests that they're reducing the capacity of the line.
Nothing in the document suggests one way or the other. Considering how unconvincing many of the arguments that are presented are, I'm not willing to accept an argument that isn't presented at all. (Remember, it's up to the project sponsor to present supporting arguments.)
I have reason to be concerned. I rely on the 1 train on a daily basis. If this terminal gets pushed through without the proper analysis, and -- whoops! -- it turns out that it only supports 12 tph, then I effectively have no subway service anymore -- I won't be able to fit on the train. That's why I'm not willing to accept any capacity claims without support. Find me a convincing argument and I'll be happy.
The document discusses at length the issue of pedestrian circulation (and appears to reach the ironic conclusion, without stating it explicitly, that the "no build" condition wins). Why does it not even raise the issue of train circulation? We already know that there are going to be eight turnstiles at the south mezzanine, but we don't know the location of the crossover? I don't buy it for a minute.
Intent doesn't impact capacity. If Jamaica Center performs poorly because it wasn't planned to be a terminal, then another terminal designed similarly will also perform poorly, even if it was planned to be a terminal from the start.
Where does it say that?
We already know that there are going to be eight turnstiles at the south mezzanine, but we don't know the location of the crossover? I don't buy it for a minute.
I agree--they know by now exactly where they're putting the switch.
Thank you for pursuing this - it's someting that should generate questions to be put to MTA.
I have criticized the DEA for over-stating (or failing to substantiate) a 4-6 minute time savings for passengers who board at South Ferry.
However, there will be a very real savings for M and R riders who are headed to lower 7th avenue destinations--a savings the DEA fails to note.
Overall, my guess is that this document was slapped together rather quickly, which accounts for its rather low quality.
Anything north of Chambers, the rider should have changed at Pacific/Atlantic for the 2/3
But as I have reported on other occasions, 8th Ave on the L is in fact designed in such a way that for only 150 seconds out of every train arrival interval (approx 4 mins) is anything happening. For the other 90 seconds, a train could enter or leave, but doesn't because the schedule doesn't call for it yet.
Based on the measurements I took, it seems very likely that 8th Ave could perfectly well handle 24 tph if it had to.
This doesn't mean you have no reason to be concerned about SF. But it does suggest that NYCT isn't being deliberately misleading if they say they believe SF will be able to handle 24 tph.
I do wonder how a minor detail of this sort could have been omitted from the DEA.
I believe you're wrong about that. This is labeled Draft Environmental Assessment. They are obligated to produce a final one.
They are speaking of CUSTOMERS not trains
They are *guessing* that people will be able to save four minutes from the platform to the boat.
OH MY! How So?
Longer trains, longer platforms, and a SHORTER walk!
And how will we keep people from crowding into the first two cars and ingnoring the rest of the train?
Oh Wait! Wait!
My crystal ball is clearing now....
There There! I see a long moving walkway, no two of them, leading from the boat dock directly to the paltform...
No to the NORTH END of the platform.
The first moving walkway is the longest: it goes directly from the boat to the NORTH third of the platform.
The second moving walkway starts in the waiting room and goes to the middle third of the platform.
and then for those who as have the time and like walking a little bit, they can walk right down to the southern third of the platform.
HMmmm.... Seems the moving walkways only move in the rush direction.
nicely decorated... there is a fountain with running water...
no wait, that's just another homless person, oh well, some things never change.
: ) Elias
Having read part of the DEA (essentially, Chapters 1, 2, 3, and 5-9), I've reached a similar conclusion. Unfortunately, the voodoo arithmetic you spotted seems to be accompanied by a generous helping of voodoo logic.
For instance, look at section 1.4.1, discussing recovery time. The DEA argues that the current maximum peak hour recovery time of 1½ minutes (one minute at Chambers southbound and 30 seconds at Chambers northbound) is inadequte. Perhaps so. But would the proposed terminal allow for longer recovery times? The DEA doesn't address this question quantitatively, so we'll have to do it right here. According to this page (astonishingly, the DEA doesn't comment on capacity at all), the capacity of the proposed terminal is 24 tph, or a headway of 2½ minutes. (As you know, I'm skeptical of this claim, but I'll accept it for the sake of argument.) The 1/9 currently runs at a peak headway of 3 minutes (20 tph). In other words, the proposed terminal limits rush hour recovery time to 30 seconds! How is that an improvement over the 90-second recovery time currently in place?
In section 1.5.3, the DEA suggests that placing a BO train on one of the two tracks is preferable to sending the train all the way up to 240th Street Yard. Is it not obvious that if a two-track terminal can handle 24 tph, removing one of those tracks from availability limits the capacity to about 12 tph? Storing a BO train in one of the pockets would be far more damaging to service than running it up to the Bronx. Furthermore, why does it have to run up to the Bronx at all? The obvious place to dump such a train is the spur track south of Times Square. If that's not possible, there are still other places to store a train south of the Bronx: the middle track north of 96th, the underground yard north of 137th, the middle track north of Dyckman, and 207th Street Yard. If necessary, with a reverse move the train could even be stored on the South Ferry inner loop (which is largely unused during rush hours; the few trains that do use it would have to be diverted to the City Hall loop, to the outer loop, or to one of the Brooklyn terminals).
Moving on to section 1.5.4, the document decries the current single entry stairway. Perhaps the authors have short memories, but until 2001, there were two staircases to the platform. When the station reopened in 2002, those two staircases had been closed and a third, new one had replaced them. Even assuming they can't be reopened and no other staircases can be added anywhere else, is the single staircase problematic? This question is discussed at length in section 5.9. Let's jump ahead to the punchline: compare tables 5-11 and 5-13 -- 2025 pedestrian analyses for the "no build" condition and for the proposed replacement. Not only will the current staircase arrangement not be problematic in 2025, it appears that the proposed staircase arrangement will flood the turnstiles, creating an LOS D condition in the morning rush! (This shouldn't be surprising. The most popular destination as well as the transfer will be at the south exit. Regular ferry riders, who make up the bulk of the rush hour crowd, will continue to ride in the front of the train and will use the south exit. The existence of two additional exits isn't very helpful if not many are willing to use them.)
If these are the best arguments that can be found for the proposed terminal, it's clear that the proposed terminal is a big mistake.
Hunter College-125 Street:Major Track Work(4,5,6)
De Kalb Avenue: Bomb Scare
Times Square:Terrorist Attack
Penn Station: President Visiting
Broad Channel-Rockaways: Small Power Outage
Manhattan Bridge and Williamsburg Bridge: More Track Work
Queens Plaza (not Queensboro Plaza): Police Investigation Due To Murder There
Grand Central: Major (S) Accident
Are some of the listed entries allowed to have trains run through without stopping or by wrongrailing, or is the trackage entirely closed to access in all cases?
NIMBY
NIMBY
NIMBY
NIMBYs will fight to the last man against a project like that.
now that the area is developed and the existing buildings are deteriorating property owners may not want to put money into property along the el. years back as you can see the way there were businesses on the street level and either those families or renters lived above the stores. that was a way of life. The smart thing they can do is invest in their properties along the el if they are zoned for business or sell. commerical property holds pretty high value and the els still bring people. the steets crossing these avenues can still be continuously used as they always were for residence.
but what would the residense of Mc Donald av do if the IND was not there. take Busses. not good. Even in Chicago I seem to recall that they are re doing their els with concrete systems which are alot more quiter than the existing els. correct me if I am wrong please but I thought I read about the Gun Hill rd station on the White Plains line was to be renovated or even replaced being that there is no longer a 3rd av el. Is it true that the line is to be lowered and replaced with a concrete system in this station area? This is what I am refering to. you have a right away for instance at the High Line use it with a more quiter system above ground and still save tax dollars and reach the downtown hub with commuter rail or even the # 7 line. tunneling is very costly. they have been talking about building 2 ND ave subway for over 50 years and alot of dependable lines were already removed and reducing good dependable servce to the tax payers of New York.
Elevated lines can still work, dress them up make them quiet and you will have a way to make it work
john
w bwy
-Chris
Since the 2nd and 3rd av el's were removed in the 1950's they still have not even produced a portion of a operational SAS. now we all know the MTA has taken in millions over the years but yet can not produce new lines to move the people. I am sure they made good money selling the steel from the el's to Japan. think about it you can always find something wrong with something but if it works for the most past don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
the MTA knows how to remove means of transportation but not replace it. too many mouth peices in the peanut gallery. They should what is good for all and not the few. marjority rules.
john
The Upper East Side is a prime example. Another example is the areas of Woodhaven, Glendale, Richmond Hill and Ozone Park. They have some of the most deplorable surface transportation in the city, yet they have been trying to get the Jamaica Ave El torn down, as well as successfully stopping the LIRR's Rockaway Beach trackage from being utilized because they are afraid of "bad elements", noise and lack of sunlight will intrude on their neighborhood.
The same crap is going on in the Atlanta region, and MARTA is not even proposing building els-but modern high tech subway lines, quiet and pleasing to the eye.
Yet, these are the first people to complain about lack of decent transportation or being stuck in traffic for hours on end.
What I find interesting about the "Mc Donald Ave El" is that it's surrounding buildings developed much differently than the majority of other els in the city. The areas around McDOnald Ace are for the most part very nice, well kept neighborhoods, but the buildings actually along McSonald ave are very non-descript, "junky" so to speak buildings, many only about one floor high, and sort of "industrial" as opposed to residential (or even mixed use with stores on the bottom, and apartments on top). Most of the other els have "normal" buildings along the el, even if the neighborhood became run down over time. For example, along Broadway in Brooklyn, and along some of the Bronx els, there are architectually beautiful buildings along the el, even if the neighborhood went to hell, the buildings themselves are (or were) attractive.
Maybe part of the reason for Mc Donald Ave developing so "crappily" even though is a VERY nice neighborhood even today, is perhaps because originally Mc Donald Ave was a "railroad ROW" for the SBK, so more "industrial" buildings were built along the Ave - Just a theory.
I don't know if what I am saying is coming across clear, so let me try some photos.
Here's a photo at Ave X along the McDonald El. Notice how "crappy" the buildings are. (By "crappy", I don't mean run-down, I mean "non-descript and architechtually junky.) This scene of crappy buildings is typical along the Culver El:
Now look at some of the other els, and look at the "quality" of the buildings, even if over time they became neglected and "run-down", the "quality" of the buildings when first built were not "crappy". What I am trying to say is that the Culver El's neighboring buildings were crappy from the beginning, even if they were maintained and "well-kept". Most of the other els had/have "quality" buildings, even if they are falling apart now in some areas.
Broadway El (yeah they are run down but they were built as attractive "real" buildings")
West End:
White Plains Line:
Even the els that go through lesser density neighborhoods have attractive buildings along the el. The Culver seems to be the exception in my opinion. You are looking down at the roofs of mostly one story industrial buildings as opposed to residential or commercial (stores) buildings.
However, consider this: Airtrain-JFK basically is an EL !!!!
With some modern design and building matrials, perhaps as small 2-track el can work somwhere.
Kindly keep in mind that the els were built to replace HORSES, not automobiles.
john
Right down the middle of 34th Street!
Well, except that I disguise it as a shopping mall and prominade.
It runs from a Park and Ride in Queens across an elegent built-for the purpose bridge, and all the way to Javitts Center. I have drawn it as going to New Jersey as well, perhaphs to a park and ride near the Meadowlands somewhere... but that part would have to be underground and therefore expensive to build, but probably worth it.
The LRT cars perhaps two or three units long and probably fully automated, will run free of fare collection. For passengers boarding at a park and ride, the round trip fare is included in their parking fee. For pedestrians boarding in Queens or New Jersey a fee equal to a round trip subway fare ($4.00) is collected. Boarding anywhere in Manhattan is free.
The big deal is:
1) It does not interfere with ground traffic.
2) It runs on a dedicated trackway.
3) It is integrated with shops and malls that are a part of the adjacent property owners, who collect the rent, and construct access to their buildings.
4) It has an open air deck on top which is an Island Wide pedestrian prominade. (With appropriate food concessions)
Yeah, the street kinda disapears under this thing. but that can make the thing all that more attractive to developers.
Elias
Your plan for a new El over 34th St. in midtown Manhattan might actually happen if the eastern end terminated at LaGuardia airport and the western end at Penn Station (or at least passed by the station at 33rd St.). The reason is the Port Authority can use taxes on airline tickets to pay for the connection (as they did for the JFK airtrain) and suited executives might be willing to tolerate a modern Airtrain-like El if it got them to the airport without having to ride a subway and bus. Gov. Pataki might go for it to. What do you subtalkers think?
one day the silent majority will wake up like the sleeping giant and throw all of these money grubbing polititions the heck out and get a pro transit group in office to start supplying mass transit to NYC.
again my friends just my opinion
John
Most of the recent news reports have concerned the shock people have experienced, given the way the tunnel has been sold, not that they have found out that goods would still reach their final destination by truck.
A site for the huge truck terminal has been identified, and people in Queens Southwest Queens have been informed that if the tunnel is built that goods arriving by rail will be transferred to trucks in their neighborhood, rather than in New Jersey. So city streets will get about the same amount of truck traffic, and their streets would get vastly more. The savings in truck traffic is on the bridges and highways only.
It probably would come out of the same few billion as the SAS and East Side Access. Mr. Nadler things mass transit only helps the evil, yuppie information- and culture-based industries in Manhattan and nearby centers, whereas the rail tunnel will bring back manufacturing jobs for the virtuous unionized working class. The fact that the New Jersey side of the river, which already has both the rail connections and the port, has lost as large a share of manufacturing as NYC seems irrelevant to him. He is living a dream of the past, a past that few who were actually there would prefer to the present.
You're being humorous above but are probably really onto to Nadler's way of thinking.
Nadler is but one of our city's democratic politicians that fantasize about the 'rebirth' of manufacturing. Manufacturing left NYC years ago for reasons too numerous to go into here, and it ain't coming back, also for reasons too numerous to go into here.
The Brooklyn docks may have a very slim chance at regaining some shipping business because the new freighters require very deep ports. I say very slim chance because what shipping company is going to put up with all the crap involved in building anything that large here. In the long-gone days when this port was thriving, how did the goods get from the Brooklyn docks to the rest of the country with no direct rail link? Was it all loaded up on trucks and driven through Manhattan to the NY-NJ tunnels or the GW Bridge?
This tunnel is eons way from being built, but my company (and it's competitiors) are looking into getting the rights to run fiber optic cable through it. We all pay a franchise fee for that, but it's not enough money to offset anything.
Brooklyn's docks are handling a decent amount of business. While there is some regular container shipping in Red Hook, Brooklyn's speciality seems to be in such cargoes as coffee and cocoa.
Lighterage: unload break-bulk onto smaller barges and tug 'em across the harbor to the railheads on the NJ side, or Albany or Buffalo or wherever. The barge system had been in place since the beginnings of the port and was only disrupted by the new economics of containerization and Interstates after the Second World War--a pretty good run.
There has been repeated talk of reviving this service, but it has been blocked by union rules (which make it too expensive to run) and business disputes. This would be faster and cheaper than a direct connection, but would also prove it's worth.
Can anyone provide an update on what is going on with this?
An article this week in the Brooklyn Papers about the American Stevedoring lease negotiations at the Red Hook piers (and the potential cruise ship terminal) mentioned that Jerry Nadler was trying to subsidize a new float bridge as well, in his attempts to broker a compromise between Stevedoring and the PA. The article was actually more optimistic that Stevedoring would get the lease than anything else I've read on the subject in the past months; there have been a lot of suggestions that the powers that be would prefer other uses for the Red Hook waterfront for developers to cash in on.
Which is still a very important savings.
There is no rail connection to all of New England south of Albany.
Much of that train traffic will come across the harbor and right out again over the Hell Gate Bridge. Traffic for Long Island can go by train to points much further out before transfer to a truck.
Still, I like my plan much better: it provides NEW LIRR service, and NEW NJT service to WTC, as well as airport service from WTC to both LGA and Newark.... AND it will handle MORE freight traffic than a NJ-Brooklyn Tunnel can (Because it has better rail access at both ends, AND it will cross the rivers at deeper channels, so less interference with shipping.
You can make a tunnel that will only move a few freight trains, or you can make a new major crossing system for only a pittance more.
: ) Elias
Scurvy is a terrible condition that results from a lack of vitimin C. It can result in severe damage to your gums and other soft membranes that can then lead to loss of teeth and fingnails. For those of you who think that scurvy is a thing of the past, there have been recent cases of Harvard law students getting scurvy due to subsisting for days and days on library vendingmachine food.
Scurvy can be easily prevented by the ingestion of Vitimin C bearing foods. Many fruits and vegetables contain vitimin C and should be consumed often to aboid the onset of Scurvy. These include Onions, Limes, Lemons and Oranges. You don't need much Vitimin C to ward off Scurvy so a lemon a day will keep the pirate away, ha ha ha.
So remember, next time you're out riding the entire NYC subway system in a single Ultimate Ride or rading Amtrak to Alliance OH and back, please, for the love of God, eat some citrus fruit...it's important and you're loved one's will thank you when you can eat food that hasn't been pre-mushified.
For more information on Scurvy Awareness Day check out http://www.monzy.com/scurvy/
Your citric pal,
Fred
(PS Before anyone mentions my spelling 'mistake' - 'offence' is spelt that way in the UK.)
Scurvy is no laughing matter as it once was a fatal condition.
And IIRC it's "me hearties".
British sailors were known as limeys centuries ago because the Royal Navy figured out that putting limes on the ship would prevent scurvy...
I would recommend everyone to buy some OJ, since the businesses are suffering losses due to the low-carb craze.
I'll drink Florida OJ any day, out here in California.
Actually Kiwifruit, Guava and of all things, ROSEHIP has the most vitamin C, oranges by comparison to many others aren't all that plentiful in vitamin c ... source:
http://www.naturalhub.com/natural_food_guide_fruit_vitamin_c.htm
Be happy to shill for Florida when they learn how to vote. :)
Full enfranchisement. That’s such a northern thing.
PS: I have had more rose hip syrup than I care to think about. I’ll take my Flintstones thank you.
PPS: Don’t get me going on cod liver oil!!!!
Big difference HERE though is that we voters were SO pythed off at "politics as usual" that the Working Families Party swept 22 of 36 seats, tossing both replutocrats and democans aside in a MAJOR upheaval of the county. To say, "Im loving this" is an understatement. 2000 wasn't an "upset," it was a coup d'etat. But I'm heartened by some things I've found out from folks who have been answering the pollsters. They're AFRAID (Patriot act many say) to tell a pollster the TRUTH ... so folks are answering "Bush" when asked, but privately telling the pollsters that they're not being truthful in answer to other information. Like I said, should be interesting. And in case anyone wants to know WHICH polls are taken by students locally for national office, those polls would be Zogby, Marist, Gallup, Harris, Roper and Pew Research. They all use local students to do their phone surveys. :)
thanks
mike
If you hear of anything, post it here or email me cityguy_10025@yahoo.com
Greg
BCSC has acquired a complete 1944 Boston air-electric PCC from a gracious donor, and have a working agreement for seven ex-SEPTA PCC's. BCSC is also looking for trolleys of older vintages, even approaching owners in Europe and South America for suitable old-timer trams.
As you can see, the need for suitable work space to get moving would be a good thing to have.
I'd know I'd like to see operating Milan Peter Witts in B&QT red/cream/salmon or TARS red/cream myself!
The proposal I've seen is in several parts: one is a line that would operate the length of the Brooklyn Bridge Park, a mile and half long stretch from Atlantic Ave. and Furman St. to DUMBO. The second part is a line to connect the Borough Hall area to DUMBO (you can walk it, but its a darn long walk). The third is to support a museum which is part of the Park plan. They've been working together with the Park's planners, architects, politicians, community supporters, and various other folks with a vested interest in making the Park a success.
A website is coming real soon, but you can try this email for more info:
bcsc718@msn.com .
Earlier this year, some of the data from this study was published. Levels of iron, manganese and chromium on subway platforms were up to 100 times the levels in student's homes or schools. Levels of these metals inside air-conditioned cars were also elevated, but not as great as on the platforms. The researchers reassure riders that the elevated levels of metal were still 1000 times lower than levels considered to be dangerous.
Discussion of Data
The head of the project will be discussing his study in a free public lecture on Sunday, May 23rd at 3 PM at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in New Jersey.
May 23rd Lecture
Travel Directions
Smells like... victory.
I tried spending them at Hudson News in Penn Station. The cashier looked at the Susie Bs and said, "I don't know what these are" and handed them back to me. So, no magazine for me. Other stores just look at me funny when I try to pay with gold coins or just assume the Susie Bs are quarters.
They don't exactly fit in my wallet nicely, and leave this great big bulge protruding from the side. They weigh down my pants pocket, and it just looks funny. I could always throw them into the vortex of my pocketbook, but they'll never be seen again.
The only place I can really use the coins, no questions asked, is in the soda machine downstairs, but I don't drink that much soda. I suppose the logical thing to do is to pay for my tickets with them, but who wants to carry $20 worth of the coins around?
So, right now, they're in a cup in my desk drawer. Their only salvation is if I need a caffiene fix.
What do you do with yours?
I don't have problems using them at other places though. I usually buy my morning bagel with them. Sometimes I use them to leave small tips at cheap eateries. Only once has someone mistaken the Susie Bs as quarters, and when I pointed out they were dollars they apologized and happily accepted them.
Once I came back from Atlantic City with a few rolls of half-dollars. Now those attracted attention when I used them.
Not to mention that places of business where the cashiers and management have greater than the "new mean intelligence" will certainly accept the valid currency of SBA and Sacagawea dollar coins. There are indeed newsagents that can tell the difference between valid currency and amusement-arcade tokens that read "NO CASH VALUE" . . .
You could use those coins the next time you need to get a metrocard.
As far as people not knowing what a dollar coin is, gimmeabreak. The susie b has been around for 25 years, or one QUARTER of a CENTURY. The new Sacageua(sp) has been so publicized, that you need to be on Leno during the Jaywalkers segment if you're that clueless. I know we're going to a cashless society(which I now go against), but if you have no clue what american money looks like, you're from mars.
And I'm still waiting on the new Florida quarter!! We have an online vote, and the one I picked won! Has anyone gotten this one yet?
As for my self I like the $1 coins, and use them when ever I get them. If the person dose not like them, then tought shit on them. One down down the road the mints are going to stop making paper $1 bill and only make coins and the people of America will have to ajust just like in other contreys that have already done it to there smaller bill's.
Robert
The mint never made dollar bills. The mint only makes coin money. That is what a mint is: a place that makes coin money.
Dollar Bills come from the Treasury Printing Office.
And yes, they *are* going to stop printing One Dollar Bills one day.
Dollar coins last much longer. So be it !
Bill "Newkirk"
-Robert King
While there once was a CN$5.00 coin, that was a long, long time ago. The "loonie" IS the $1 coin, and the "toonie" is the $2 coin. There is no $5 coin currently. And while some may have wished to see Mulroney on a $3 coin, alas, they put Clinton on it instead. (grin)
-Robert King
: )
Mark
Alberta
British Columbia
Manitoba
New Brunswick
Newfoundland and Labrador
Northwest Territories
Nova Scotia
Nunavut (Iqaluit)
Ontario
Prince Edward Island
Quebec
Saskatchewan
Yukon
Add upstate New York for 14. :)
Mark
Sorry 'bout that, folks.
Mark
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ca.html
How about this: :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nothing like holding a camcorder in my left hand and crossing myself with my right hand while taping the final blessing at Mass.:)
It was nice having all three uncles (we're all bachelors, incidentally) together again. I don't see them all that often, let alone my sister's family.
But I'm GONNA let you wrack the old meatrom over the remaining method of preventing the doors from opening - perhaps someone else here might figure it out as well if the door switch isn't it and the drum switch isn't it, there's STILL one way to prevent the triggers from opening the doors ...
(Final Jeopardy theme up and under)
The thing I remember most is you reviewing out loud every step to take to rouse 1689 from its peaceful slumber.
I'm a WEE bit disappointed that your meatrom is out of calibration. So let's go back (for the enjoyment of others as well) ... when I checked my reservoir cock, then climbed up and showed you HOW to "board an arnine yard style", you may recall that the FIRST thing I did on the car after getting in the storm door, opening the cab and giving it a visual, and then observing the condition of the layup brake ratchet to see if it needed to be kicked was to go STRAIGHT to the bottle caps, and do WHAT?
SLAP 'EM ... safety procedure ... back in teh day, the FIRST thing you did when you "mounted" was go to the operating position (since I had no idea of what was cut in and what easn't, did it on both ends - first when climbing, reached out and slapped, and when I worked my way to the other end of the car, reached out and slapped again. It was known as the "four quadrant cap slap" ...
*IF* you assumed the conductor position, you HAD to do that in order to ensure that all door controls were properly reset and that a wrong side open could NOT occur owing to a trigger caught "in the middle" ... this is why I can't BELIEVE they need "door enablers" now when it was CLEARLY "conductor duty" to do the four quadrant BEFORE going into service. And you did platform OFFSIDE FIRST! (just to let you know *WHY* I did that before "motorman issues") ...
OK ... so on to the "Final Jeopardy" answer. IF you recall, I went and opened up a longitudinal SEAT ... WHAT did I show you when I did that? THAT was the answer I was thinking of. "DCO" ... door cutout lever and switch. HAD that been thrown, then the doors associated with that air controller would NOT have opened. Each "leaf pair" has that arrangement. That's why arnines with cutout doors would not open. Now, you say "duh" ... heh.
But WAIT, there's MORE. What would you NOW expect to pay. But don't answer YET, there's valve cutouts inside the panels! :)
But even ALL THAT wasn't the reason why the doors would not open. REMEMBER when I started charging, and I was showing you the air gauge and the "stuck door?" You MISSED a piece there ... heh. At 30 pounds, the doors will NOT open. We needed about 50 for the "sluggish door" (one of the other thing we did when "walking out trains" ... we'd kick the doors and with LOW PRESSURE, we'd get to SEE which ones would misbehave on us later (that's why I did that and showed you the ritual) and "exercise" them BEFORE it rolled in revenue.
But the OTHER trick is simply to DUMP the train. No reservoir, no DOORS. Heh. So ... adding up your tally, you had THREE chances to win with that question - in addition to the drum switch, the breaker switch, and ZONING, I can stop you with DCO lever ("door cutout"), opening the panel and throwing the valve block, AND just DUMPING the witch ... no air, no doors. Moo. :)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Robert
And i am just being nit-picky...
: )
Elias
Robert
That statement is false.
It *is* legal tender, and it may be *accepted* for all debts, both public and private. But a vendor may choose to refuse any form of tender they wish. Many place will not accept pennies, or rolls of coins or whatever.
It's their loss, but it is also their right.
As for me, I love the things.
Elias
Robert
The laws usually have some limits of reasonableness: you can’t pay your rent with a billion pennies for example. So you can use pennies up to 26 cents (as was posted earlier), nickels up to another amount, etc, with presumably $100 bills being valid for just about any transaction.
http://www.treas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.html#q1
Question: I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?
Answer: The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 102. This is now found in section 392 of Title 31 of the United States Code. The law says that: "All coins and currencies of the United States, regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal-tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties and dues."
This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I support paper dollars as it is a strong statement as to the intrinsic value of a dollar. It also forces people to think before they feed their $ into a machine.
The dollar bill has no intrinsic value. That stopped when dollars stopped being made of silver. A dollar bill is just a piece of paper.
It's ironic: when paper money first came in, people didn't like it because it wasn't proper money, with intrinsic value. Now Jersey Mike doesn't want to lose dollar bills because he thinks the the dollar coins aren't proper money!
I wasn't particularly happy hwen pound coins replaced pound notes in 1982. But I got over it. Mike will survive the replacement of dollar bills with coins when it happens, which it will, one day.
I, for one, was very pleased when Britain decided put its coinage on a diet a few years ago. Now if only they could do the same to the £1 and £2 coins. Perhaps a reintroduction of the dodecagon? (I always liked the old threepenny bits, portcullis and all!)
I hate those new 5p pieces - they're so easy to lose. If any coin needed a "diet" it would have been the 2p. Better still abolish 1p and 2ps, then count everything in Shillings...
Ulster Bank purple fivers are also fun.
Like i said before, a coin is great for one dollar items. I'd much rather get on a bus with a dollar coin and two quarters than a bill and 2 quarters, and have that ready in my hand(yes ready, not sifting through my pocket AFTER i get on the bus!).
Or a bottle of water.
But being from the service industry, there are places where bills are better. I love my ones.
It will suck for cashiers having another slot for dollar coins now, and having to stock those up with 100 of them a shift.
It will suck being a server or bartender and dealing with itty bitty heavy coins. You going to keep 80-90 of those things in you're pockets or bags everynight? I love the bills when they pile up.
It's got it's uses, and sometimes it doesn't. I'm 50/50 and rather see both.If you only have half the bills circulating and the rest is coins, you're still doing the savings and it's still asting longer. This ain't all or nothing.
Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hence why it's my former bank.
Now I've got a cell phone, so getting quarters for a pay phone is no longer an issue.
As to the banks, yup!!
As to dollar coins vs. bills, that's Treaury, wimping out. When the Saccy was going to be introduced, Treasury announced that the dollar bill was not going to be printed any more. Bills would remain in circulation until worn out.
When the coin was introduced, Treasury then decided to continue printing and issuing dollar bills. The coin never had a chance, even though the coin is a better thing. Coins have a lifespan of about 70 years, on average. A dollar bill wears out in about 18 months.
People are comfortable with what they have and resist change. Since bills are still freely available and that's what people are used to, that's what banks and businesses use.
The MTA in Baltimore issues dollar coins as change for subway fare tickets and light rail tickets. If you stick a Five in a LR ticket machine for a day pass ($3.60) you will recieve a pass ticket, forty cents in small change and a dollar coin.
Outside of the subway and Light Rail, bills reign supreme. Bus fareboxes take anything and purchase of Day Passes gets everything from a bunch of quarters and nickels to a five dollar bill inserted. No change is issued, so the MTA gets a little bit more than the actual fare. Base fare is $1.60, and lots of riders who don't use weekly or montly passes stuff 4 singles in the farebox for a Day Pass and "eat" the 40 cents.
Our soda maching at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum takes dollar coins, dollar bills, coins from a nickel up. Soda costs 75 cents. We get lots of dollar bills, a lot of quarters and no dollar coins. They are not in general circulation.
Sure you have... I've fed at least one to it!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He finally put a dollar bill in the Store register and took it himself.
We've never taken in one at the Admission Window, ever. Singles, Fives, Tens, LOTS of Twenties (curse of the ATM) even, once in a while, a Fifty or a "C" Note.
As I noted, they (Sacies) are not in general circulation. When the Susie B (referred to in some circles as the Lizzie Borden dollar due to the wonderfully bad portrate used for the plate) we made sure they didn't work in our Johnson model D fareboxes, since they were often confused with the quarter.
I agree that they are legal tender, but as Amanda pointed out, you can have difficulty spending them, and you only ever get them in change from machines. When did a human give you a Susie B or a Sacagawea?
There are other outlets where the dollar coins can be used besides transit or parking. Ever find a soda machine on a hot day and you want to buy a soda but the singles you use are spat out by the machine because they are too crinkly ?
Dollar coins are much faster, I keep a few in the mini pocket in my jeans. Hell, a couple on months ago, I purchased a $4 Metrocard from an MVM and just picked out four dollar coins from my min pocket. Beats opening up you bill fold with who knows is standing behind you.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, the UTPT Mk 1 and UTPT Mk 2, that's what I said.
which are indeed legal tender.
Yes, I know that some people accept them out of the goodness of their heart, but that does not make them legal tender.
Some people accept you as a rational intelligent human being out of the goodness of their heart too, but that doesn't mean they're right, even if they are your parents :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Strictly speaking, this is not so.
I give them out as change in the Abbey Wine Cellar.
People are pleasd to have them too. I have only had one or two complaints in two years of passing out the things.
I find that they are really great. I can never keep enough one dollar bills in my till. Twenty Five of the and the drawer is stuffed. And when the business manager clears the till, he takes all but five. What change can I make for people with only five dollar bills!
So I buy the Sakakawea (correct North Dakota spelling~ look at the map!) dollars. I can easily fit 100 of them in the till, and the busisness manager never bothers them.
: ) Elias
Think of it as a substitute for a token. Do the buses accept dollar coins?
Even better: machines around NYC take Metrocards! I know that Metrocards aren’t perfect, but I think that they’re a not unreasonable stored value card for small transactions!
And, no you can’t use your unlimited ride Metrocard in a soda machine!
Personally, I don't like having to be forced to use dollar coins. When one goes to Canada or Europe, it becomes a little cumbersome to have a pocket full of change. But in Britain it's the worst. Each £1 coin weighs the equivalent of about 3 quarters. Put 10 of those in your pocket and you'll be wishing for paper money.
: )
He did... which explains things pretty well, don't you think? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Kind of like subway tokens before their demise.
Mark
Now think about removing a national icon, the dollar bill!
There is no need to round anything. Australia and New Zealand each have no coin smaller than 5c, but some prices are quoted with odd cents on them. If you pay by credit card, debit card or cheque, no problem, you pay the exact amount. If you pay in cash, the point-of-sale terminal rounds up or down as appropriate: 1c or 2c goes down, 3c or 4c goes up, 6c or 7c goes down, 8c or 9c goes up. There are as many downs as ups, so in the long run everyone is even. No-one objects to this.
In practice, in Oz and NZ it's only in supermarkets that any odd-cent transactions occur. No public transport fares have odd cents on them. And big items - electrical goods, say - get priced at $199.95 (or whatever), not $199.99.
In my view, the only reason why pennies survive in the USA is because of sales taxes. As these vary from city to city and/or state to state to state, they can't be incorporated into the base price, and have to be added at the till. This leads to odd cents on the price of a lot of transactions.
I'm sure a computer program can be devised to lower the base price up or down a few cents on each item so that when the sales tax is added, it comes out ending in a "5". The computers already must be programmed in each locality to calculate the sales tax for that locality only.
Of course it could.
Rounding is against the law in pretty much every state, though. The g=fear is that all rounding would be up.
I would love the penny to go away.
SNAXTAX ... many remember when it was introduced, it made the $1.00 street dog $1.06 ... but that's not the STUPID part. It was when the street vendors (I *strongly* encourage ANY republican to push the cart around out of the tax garage where they're stored undernight and YOU buy the "pumpitapumpita" kerosene from your G-O or Sabretts (or worse) distributor and see what YOU think of "ontapanoorship, Wal*Phart style" ... driving a TAXI is *bonus* compared to streetdoggie or chestnut roasters. :(
NYS Tax and Finance came RIGHT after the buggers when they dropped the price of a streetdog to 94 cents (the 6 cent/7 cent taxt split for under a dollar) and sold the dollar STREETDOG for "$1.00, 'tax included'" ... OH did them phuzzas get BURNED ... they sold the doggie for $1.00, turned in 97 cents (THREE cents a dog! I did it, so I know) and then the STATE turns around and sues the DOGGIE-GIVERS for "purloined 7 cents of sales tax" ... in other words, the poor schlump that slapped mustard and kraut on your weenie had to PAY a penny a blow to kiss your asp! And NO guilt on either side, state or distributors, YOU got the political high hard one today. :(
Stupid? People keep RE-ELECTING THESE bastards! :(
Hearing stories of "sitting ducks" because instead of the ARMY providing its own gas, convoys drop dead in the middle of the desert out of fuel, sit there for 16 hours waiting for HALLIBURTON (Dick Cheney STILL getting his CEO check) to NOT deliver fuel and getting blowed up because after 16 hours, EVERYBODY knows they're out there and decide to blow them up. :(
STUPID? Yeah, call it AMERICA ... spun by Faux News to Disney to CNN to Dan Rather. "Liberal press, my ASP!" :(
I can only wait until Britain joins EMU. (As usual late with everything…)
I like the Euro so much that I have previously proposed a NAMU. Basically I see no reason why there should be a separate American and Canadian Dollar. There should be one North American Dollar. Then we can make the NAD look more Canadian and less American (actually I have nothing against American bills except that it's all one color, although that's changing).
NYCT buses do.
Bill "Newkirk"
Remember, a dollar is the equivalent of a dime in 1940, the dime the equivalent of a penny back then, an penny now is a pain in the ass.
Actually, that would be 1945 (according to this calculator from the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis... but your basic point is valid regardless... the dollar bill's time is past, and the penny should probably also go away.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
: )
An excellent point. I like to think in terms of what is the most common useful coin - the one you seem to use most of - at any time. When I was growing up in England in the 1950s, it was the sixpence (six old pence, 6d, equivalent to 2.5p in the decimal version of our currency). More recently, in the 1980s, it was the 20p. Now it's pretty much the pound coin!
In the USA at the same periods, I'd guess it was the nickel in the 50s, the quarter more recently, and now it's the dollar bill! Last timne I was in the USA (six months ago) I was shocked how rarely I used a coin of any kind.
You should have told numbnuts that this is a dollar coin and is legal tender, just like the paper bill.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have used them for other transactions (i.e. lunch) and the cashier accepted it with no questions asked.
As far as the SBA dollars, I hate those suckers. They're too close to a quarter. I spend those ASAP.
My attitude: This is America, this is American currency, got a problem with America?
- Isaac
You're right, a lot of merchants won't take dollar coins. A lot of them won't even take PENNIES. The guy in the roach coach in front of my office gets all snippy if you try to pay for a fifty-cent cup of coffee with a quarter, two dimes and five pennies. Likewise many newsstands. The best course of action in a case like this is to take your business elsewhere.
A couple of years ago, there was a major advertising campaign for the Golden Dollar with ads all over the subway system. It showed a ridiculous matte photo of George Washington as a 'regular guy' wearing a contemporary business suit, or jeans and flannel shirt.
The copy stated you could use it to buy four 25-cent newspapers, two cups of coffee, etc. I'd like to know how long it took the copywriters to find merchants that would ACCEPT the Golden Dollar. I never did.
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Many of us browse SubTalk at work. I for instance click a post here and there while waiting for things to print, etc at work. It also helps me relax and take a needed break in between the normal stresses of the day.
It is never a good thing though when sound unexpectedly comes on when we click on something. I jump, my co-workers jump, and what I want the least, my boss can jump. Please warn if you are going to put sound in something that you link too.
(Nice photos though, by the way).
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
You can always mute the sound output from your computer. If it's a Windows machine, click the speaker icon in the taskbar, and check the "mute" box.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Click here for the story on NY1's site, then click on the video link - the 3 maps are shown towards the end. Or just put on NY1 now, they've been repeating this story for a while.
I'm grateful if we can get a piece of it done.
RTA, Metrolink...The only thing I know of that he's missing is Omnitrans!
The map in full detail.
The map legend.
An SAS station. Note the R143's.
LOL
Bob Sklar
1) HBLR system (I believe the ceremonies took place on 4/15/00)
2) Extension to Newport Center
3) Extension to 22nd St / Bayonne
Thanks in advance,
Bill "Newkirk"
April 2000- Exchange Place- West Side Ave/34th St
November 2000- Exchange Place- Newport
September 2002- Newport- Hoboken
November 15, 2003- 34th St- 22nd St
from urbanrail.net
Click on map to enlarge.
-Chris
Also, didn't you make a 7 line map? Or do I have you confused with someone else?
No, I have never made a 7 line map, but my next map will be the IRT system w/ the 7.
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
W Bwy
Nice map, though. Probably would have survived compression much better as a GIF or PNG, though.
Sorry, I just wanted people to see it.
As for GIF, i dont know, but Ill try it on the next one.
-Chris
Not to be a pecksniff, but you did spell 'legend' wrong.
Your pal,
Fred
-Chris
Another poster mentioned that using standard spelling for < legend > would be a good idea. I agree.
Sea Beach shown as going into Stillwell would be appropriate, too.
I'd like to see the Brooklyn line names used (Fourth Avenue, Sea Beach, Brighton)--too often, the other boroughs are ignored in favor of Manhattan.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
-Chris
My question is, what's the state of the tunnel walls and supports BETWEEN stations? These the public has no real access to, and we don't know how they're holding up. What kind of a job does the MTA do with the maintenance of these things? How often are the tunnels inspected and how? Is a cursory visual inspection all that the supports are given? And how often and in what manner are repairs affected?
The best rail pic I've ever taken (IMO) is right here.
Feel free to share yours!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
-Chris
The signal (D4 1257) and that irregular-looking double-crossover make it a dead giveaway.
(well, the only one worthy AND had in 6 megapixel :-)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I like that one, taken at Rayners Lane on the LU Metropolitan and Piccadilly Lines.
I also like this one, taken at Harrow-on-the-Hill. At that station, the LU and National Lines share the same tracks:
I'll post more of my favorite rail pictures later.
In case you have not seen it, my website is www.orenstransitpage.com.
I've seen it. For quite a while. I really like it.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the New York City Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provision of these Rules.
It is?
...ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used.
To my ears, since the MTA specifically says "ancillary equipment", and mentions relectors and tripods alongside lights, it sounds to me that they're talking about actually setting up lights around where you want to take a photo. That would be against the rules along with tripods and reflectors, because they're big, clunky equipment and would interfere with the free movement of passengers, which is specifically against the rules.
In other words, "take a quick picture if you must, but please don't set up an entire mini-studio".
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
For a time, they were training T/O's on the north side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge.
Better to simply tell your camera to use a fast shutter speed. Then you don't get the side effect and your battery lasts longer.
The best answer in my book is to take pictures above ground.
Mark
Chuck
Here's my favorite this year so far. Fortunately the good folks of Charlotte don't seem to be paranoid about terrorist photographers yet.
I like that one. I'm always surprised that it came out, I didn't have a tripod and just hand-steadied a crappy Olympus D390 to get the shot. I guess it's a good thing Elmwood Depot is well lit.
Chuck Greene
Although as far as subject matter goes...
Taken September 20, 2003 at the Illinois Railway Museum.
Frank Hicks
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Taken Nov 2003
Taken last month
One of my TOP 5. Taken March 2003
This Is What I Live For...
Enjoy.
My favorite that I took for this site would have to be this one:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?24347
Two of my other favorites, although they aren't that good, I've included because I love the system from which I took them.
http://www.railweb.homestead.com/brown_arm_2.jpg
I like this picture because this is my favorite station in the CTA system, and I managed to get the whole train, as well as part of the station and scenery, in as well.
http://www.railweb.homestead.com/blue_cl_2.jpg
I like this picture because it is the only one I took at a Chicago subway station which includes the train. You also get a good view of the station, although I know it isn't a good picture.
Matt
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Chuck :-)
What of camera you use and how many megapixels it has?
and of course...
Specifically
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=43047
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=43049
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=46973 (this one is being used on some corporate website, I was contacted and gave permission)
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=46099
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=41443
Are some of my very favourites.
Brill Bullet Car
E44 at Arsenal Tower
E44 in Conrail Blue
Ocean City, NJ
E60 with windshield grates
Black River & Western #60
World Series Redbirds
7 line
Smith/9th
MOD train
Brooklyn Bridge from subway train on Manhattan Bridge
Here is another nice one
Hope y'all like them. Enjoy.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
thanks in advance
Mike
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
i ended up getting sorrta a 70's style picture.
there's your exit!
R33ML#9245 with USA sticker and a glow effect too.
til next time
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
A redbird would add a lot more color to the picture...
There, I kept it politically correct,
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
You quite clearly misunderstood my comment, however this does not surprise me, every other reference I have toss out there has flown clear over your collective heads. Indeed, I had ignored your little newbie-group until you (or the other 4train, it's not like I give a damn) decided to off and call me a troll for playing devils advocate to their kangaroo trial of DefJef, that I actually paid attention to you. I have to admit, since I have begun paying attention to your group's posts I am terribly saddened by the prospects for the future of subtalk. You post little substanitive subway information, your entire exsistence here seems to be to glorify the R142 while simultaneously and quite illogically bad mouthing the perfectly decent R62 cars at every opertunity. You scream for Dave to remove the posts you deem offensive, and then at the same time fret about the boards getting closed down. Allow me to clue you in: the boards will not be closed down if nobody complains about meaningless slap-fights between posters. I don't want to drive you off, I merely want to be able to turn on the computer and not see one of you crying about "being flamed by so-and-so", thus my small campaign against your complete and utter inability to consistantly not only not get the joke, but to moan and cry about it when you miss the point and get offended.
The post I made to which you responded was just another attempt by me to see if your buddy had the sense to regard it for what it was, a joke. You quite obiviously missed my point, and as such predictably cried about it. You do realize that the word Sex can have non-reproductive connotations, right?
Ben said that he liked the R142 picture. In my humble opinion it was probably the blandest of the 3 photos there, which featured a great shot of an R62 and the R12 from a museum trip. I'm sure I'm not the only one who saw a mild amount of humor in his photo selection, I'm just the one who spoke my mind. And Ben said that he liked the R142 (isn't that an R142A?), a decidedly angular design. I merely made light of his selection by comparing the R142 to Darth Vader. A 'Sex Symbol" need not be strictly relating to Sex (which of course would be perverse and off topic), but merely contain features which you find attractive. In this case the angular features and somber colors of Darth Vader match up quite well with the similar looking R142 facade.
So as you can see now that I have completely explained my motivation to you, I am not some sick pervert. I am flaming you on purpose, roughly twice or three times a week, but mostly to see what your response is. So far I am disappointed, you need to straighten up and stop getting so damn emotional over this board.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
As well as using your killfile, let me tell you this:
Opinions make the world go 'round.
So as you can see now that I have completely explained my motivation to you, I am not some sick pervert. I am flaming you on purpose, roughly twice or three times a week, but mostly to see what your response is. So far I am disappointed, you need to straighten up and stop getting so damn emotional over this board.
So that's your little game. Like I just said,
Opinions make the world go 'round.
Now leave us alone and stop bashing us just for having our opinions. We don't bash you for your opinion, therefore I suggest you follow suit.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I'm not bashing you for your opinions, I'm bashing you for your quite easily measurable actions here on subtalk. And you have bashed people for their opinions, hell you can't even take constructive critism from Toro-papa. Next time you go about launching attacks you might wanna make sure you don't have a bunch of skeletons in your closet. I'm fairly certain that another trip through the archives will yield so many negative and flaming posts that the doors won't close!
Now there is no way in hell I'm going to respond to each and every one of your inane posts, you need to stop Post Whoring and get a life troll.
All 4train wanted to know what everyones favourite photo was - a decent question, and then he gets bashed for replying to a photo he liked. Why don't you just post a photo, shut up, and get on with your life. If you have a major dislike for him, IGNORE THE POST! You wouldn't want to waste time talking to the "troll" now would you, you obviously have better things to do. (If you hadn't noticed, that was sarcasm).
I'm not going to killfile anyone for their opinion, regardless of how much I disagree with it. They have a right to it, and you have a right to yours.
Words of advice: wdobner, with all due respect, stop post whoring and get a life yourself, If you don't like 4traintowoodlawn that much, killfile him, you won't hear of him ever again, and I think both of you could benefit from that. Instead, you put both of yourself in a put down war and everyone gets hurt.
I hope this settles this problem; or at least gives suggestions on how to take initiative to stop these ongoing flame wars. I cannot decide what is right to do for you, that is a decision you have to make yourself. Once you make a descision, I have no right to change that, I can only persuade. Nor may I just let you continue fighting each other, because we have enough problems in the world, we don't need another person to get bashed enough that they feel like crap for the rest of their life.
Shut up and move on!
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
If somebody ends up feeling like crap FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE because of verbal abuse on a fucking message board, they weren't very mentally stable to begin with.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
And to further shut you up:
See? You have your opinion that the R142s look terrible and indecent. We have our opinion that they look sharp. We also have our opinion that the R62s are bland. I did not flame you for having your opinion that the R142s looked terrible and the R62s were the exact opposite.
And one more thing:
You post little substanitive subway information,
Because the adults here know a little more than I do about my hobby! And BTW, as much as I post little substantiative subway info, at least I share my experiences and my photos and I take some photos that ain't bad at all (according to my FRIENDS)! And I post polls that ain't bad either that many members of the community participate in!
I have expressed myself. Now go away. Troll.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Just give it time!
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
30 year old, you got me pegged dead wrong. Now if you are able to, take your age, and add 7 (Hint, it should add up to all your fingers and toes). But no need to worry, you flatter me with your overestimation of my age.
You need a whole lot more than experience. You need to learn to let what others say to you roll off your back. You think Clayton, myself and other posters here who are sick of your antics are "trolls" then you have one hell of another thing coming should you ever decide to leave the sanctuary that is Subtalk. Subtalk is the bush leagues, try some of the newsgroups, or even just Yahoo transit groups, those things are nightmares.
Now, I am prepared to bury the hatchet, I apologize to whoever in the latest batch of n00bs I offended, and I accept apology from whoever may wish to apologize to me for things said in reply. I admit I have nothing against the R142s or anything, all subway cars are good, at least they're better than buses. I was merely playing an overenthusiastic devils advocate to your (IMHO) all-too-quick leap to judgement to crucify Mr. DefJef, and I apologize for any hurt feelings on your or your friend's part. I also look forward to possibly meeting you on a future MOD trip, it's good to see younger kids getting involved in railfanning. Heck I went on a PCC trip new years eve down here in Philly where I was the youngest aboard.
I agree that you need a thick skin, but I believe that there are
some things that are completely inappropriate to so to an 11 year old. Yes he needs to know that there is "adult content", in the way that it may be mature for even some of the older kids, and I don't think that a 6 year old that is exploring the net to find the "F**K you foamers " picture. I think that if you don't have a thick skin in life you will get walked over and you'll be a mess, but there is a fine line between tolerable and bullying insults.
I might have gone a little overboard with my accusations. I'm sorry, and I mean that truly, but that doesn't mean my opinions on this matter have changed.
I would love to come on a MOD trip, but this Torontonian family wont be coming to NY anytime soon (which I'm pissed about). I'll eventually come. I'll just have to keep railfannin' what we have.
Hope this extinguishes the fire,
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
P.S. I have also excepted your apology too.
I don't.
I don't think that a 6 year old that is exploring the net to find the "F**K you foamers " picture.
You see, that's the problem, what if a 6 year old had seen that picture and read that sign? You think it's wrong, I think it's no problem. The picture is not depicting graphical acts of sexual intercourse. The six year old will not know what it means. If a child reads it and knows what it means, it will not harm them, because they already know what it means. In addition, while the word fuck may have sexual connotations, it isn't used in that way here. I don't think Tico wants to engage in sexual activities with those foamers, it's just a curse word. I knew that fuck was a curse word long before I knew what it really meant. If a child doesn't know any curse words, he or she will just use something else to curse (doodoohead anyone?).
D'oh! I used wdobner's AIM name instead of his handle here.
To wdobner:
I accept your apology, and yes, I will continue to read your posts. I do not have as much against you now, but please stop with the tests. It would make it seem like you still think I am not your friend. So I will make like Bryan and lighten up, and I will be your friend and read your posts (and, of course, respond.).
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Sure did (just look at my other response)!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
You spoke too soon. :(:))
No gasping here. I don't care what your age is. Age is no marker of ability.
Ben, all you (and me) need is experience
You don't need experience, you need knowledge. There is nothing wrong with you not having as much as others, but it is not something that you gain with time. There are people who will disagree with this assessment, but they also happen to be the most reviled and least respected members of this board.
I think it is wrong to expect an 11 year old to have the same experience as a 30 year old.
It is, but it is perfectly reasonable to expect an 11 year old to have more knowledge than a 30 year old, although having knowledge does not cause you to outrank anyone. We're all peers.
(isn't that an R142A?)
No.
R142s have two-piece storm door frames. R142As have one-piece storm door frames.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I like this one too. R-62A with Shea Stadium in the background, and a blimp in the sky.
YOU DON'T SCARE ME!!!!
This picture speaks for itself.
And finally..
Bye-bye, birdies.
Annnnddd good riddance...
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Chuck
Adam
Give them a few years.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
The (4)WoodlawnBowlingGreen
I KNOW you're kidding.....right? >.>
Sometimes, LCD monitors have their disadvantages.
(When I posted 702388, I was using an LCD monitor. This post is using a regular monitor.)
Yup. 8-)
For example:
"< img src=Image's URL goes here in quotes />"
Find the image, and right-click on it and choose Properties. The image's URL should be there somewhere. On a Mac, Control-click the image and choose "Open image in new window." The image's URL will be displayed in the address bar.
(Note: Do not put a space between the first "<" and "img"; I did that so it would acknowledge this as an example.)
-RJM
Don't put spaces between the open "<" and "img." I only did that so the browser wouldn't think I was trying to add an image when I was trying to demonstrate how to use the "img" tag.
Also, the URL must be a full URL, and in quotes. For example: http://www.subwayspot.com/albums/RJM_5/we_are_number_one.jpg
-RJM
L@@K!
Thanks for the pic Dave!
you can also go to view and click source, youll see the HTML code.
I had the same problem,
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Heres a picture that I am extremely proud of taking.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Red Line trains at Glenmont
Emerging from the underground part of Fort Totten station
"The Bowl" at Dupont Circle
Those are my personal favorites from my own collection. These pictures and more can be found at The Schumin Web Transit Center.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Great pics!
Certainly not "the very best" I had ever taken, as I didn't even get a chance to look through a quarter of my photos, but here are some of my favorites, from just a small sampling, in no particular order"
I really like the reflection one.
As for the reflection one, yeah, I love that one too (although wish there was an engine in it). It was a parked train, and even though the train had already past when I got to that location, it was too good of a scene to pass up with the reflection. I had taken that somewhere in the Miami Area.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Here's a side view of the F40PH-2C in Coaster Service:
Here's a MBTA F40PH-2C:
And here's a Metra F40PH-2, note the lack of a large gap between the front truck and the equipment box under the loco:
To me it looks like the F40PH-2C has an additional area of grill behind the radiators. I'd be willing to bet that MBTA and Coaster opted for a supplementary HEP engine, possibly a 3rd party add on kinda thing, and that resulted in the body being lengthened. The same thing has happened with the F40PH-2CATs that NJT and MN has (not sure about MN's F40PHs, but I know NJT's), except that NJT didn't have the frame lengthened, they just removed the back porch area, covering it with the cowl body. It'd appear that MBTA and Coaster didn't want to lose that area, yet still wanted a different HEP engine, so they had the locomotives lengthened.
lets see if this works
Try <img src=image url goes here> again.
-Chris
lol..................
:-)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
Yeah, I haven't taken a lot of rail photos, so that's the best I could find. :-(
Out of all of our photos, my personal favorite (besides mine) was RJM's photo of the R142 on the (5). It was crisp, the colors looked great, and that's one of my favorite cars.
Thank you for sharing your excellent photos!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Subway Train Z
Eighty-Two Forty-Five
Slant W
Morning Express
Nice Pic!
Huge TTC fan,
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
http://home.comcast.net/~leverett/JJB/808_WTC.html
As an aside, I live in East Meadow. There is no station in East Meadow. The closest stations are in Hicksville, Westbury, Hempstead, Country Life, Merrick, Bellmore, Mineola, and Carle Place. Here is parking for each:Merrick-Lot fills up by 0700.Bellmore-Lot fills up by 0700.Hicksville-Requires Town of Oyster Bay PermitWestbury-High fee, not worth itHempstead-Limited parking a nice distance awayCountry Life-Limited parking filled up by 0700.Mineola-Most spots village only. If you're lucky you might hit the jackpot and find a vacant 12 hr meter and pay $3.E.Williston-Village permit required, not enough trains anywayCarle Place-Never parked there. Do not know situation, but not enough trains stop there anyway.
Too bad they dismantled the Central Branch before East Meadow was developed. There probably wouldn't be any parking anyway.
LI Bus? Yeah, right, I might ever take the bus to the LIRR. Yeah, right!!
I usually drive to Queens now and park on Jamaica Avenue for the "J" or Liberty Avenue for the "A".
One question though, why wouldn't you take the bus?
First there is the fare. Although most LIBus drivers honor my retired NYPD ID let's say they don't for argument's sake as I am an exception, most people have to pay. If I'm going with my wife and older son (7 yrs old, has to pay) it would be an extra $12 round trip just to go 3 miles to either Hempstead or Hicksville on the N48,N49. I might as well pay the parking fee at Westbury or risk the summonses at Hicksville. Besides the fact that it would probably double my commuting time. Also, while I am only a half block from the N48,49 most people on Long Island are not that close. They'd have to drive to the bus stop!!
To be honest with you, I got used to parking on Jamaica Avenue for the "J" or Liberty for the "A". At some stations there are plenty of spots right at the staircase. Of course I will only do that with my rusty '89 Corolla or my rusty '82 Yamaha bike. I would never park my 2004 Camry or my '91 Harley on Jamaica Av or Liberty!!!
Sounds like the MTA could use more park and ride lots at subway stations. How about a platform over the Jamaica Yard, with a new station in the yard for terminating V and R trains? Could be a $2.00 fee.
I don't know if you would want to park in that yard? Would it be safe at night?
By contrast, some London Underground stations at the outer ends of lines have parking lots of significant size. I've sometimes used Stanmore tube station and parked there, if for some reason I've been driving to London instead of going by train, because Stanmore is quite accessible from the North.
And you expect a bus running down every street or at least every other street in Nassau. How in heaven's name do you expect the majority of people in Nassau or Suffolk to get to the train station without driving there. It's not the city where you can walk a block or two and there is a bus waiting to pick you up.
LIB can still greatly expand the system without running on every other street. Just in Port Washington I can think of several new services that can be put it.
In 20 more years, there will be 15% more cars on the road than today. They better make a contingency plan and start building underground parking lots the size of 10 football fields in Nassau country or you'll be waking up at 4 O'clock in the morning for that last parking spot!
When I commute by train, I have the option of taking the bus to the station or taking the car. I almost always take the car. Why? The car gives me much more flexibility. Adding the bus to my commute means one more schedule that I have to coordinate with. Also, I can stop off and run errands on my way to and from the station.
The only time I take the bus is if I'm planning to be out late in the city that night and have a few drinks. The irony there is that by the time I get home, the bus usually isn't running anymore and I have to take a cab home (or walk the 1.25 miles).
CG
Also, what is it with people and all of a sudden not being able to walk more than one block? Many of the students at my school walk well over one mile everyday. I either take the bus(which is a quarter mile away) or I walk all the way(1.25 miles).
I don't move all that fast in the AM, so frequently what happens is this. Wake up intending to catch the 6:48, but walk out the front door to see the bus pulling away. My choice then becomes hop in the car and catch the same train or wait for the next bus and catch a train 15 minutes later (slowing down my entire day by 15 minutes in the process).
On the way home, the bus is timed to meet the trains. So for a train arriving at 7:44 PM, the bus will leave at 7:50 and get to my stop at 8:00. If my car is at the station, I can hop in and be home almost before the bus leaves -- as long as the train is on time. If the train is a little late, I don't save as much time but I still beat the bus. If the train is more than 10 minutes late, the bus will leave without the connection -- meaning I'll have to wait until 8:20 for the next bus.
Walking isn't a big deal, but walking a medium or long distance in a suit or even in "business casual" is a real drag -- especially if the weather is bad. Standing at a bus stop while you get splashed by passing traffic is no fun either.
Walking is also a tremendous waste of time, with the exception of the exercise benefit. I can cover the same ground in 6 minutes in my car that I can in 25 minutes walking. 40 minutes of additional free time each day means a lot to me -- especially since I only have about 3 hours of that in any given weekday.
CG
Yeah, in the future, I could cover the same distance in less time, but no, I'm gonna keep doing things they way I do them now. Why? B/c I'm not the spoiled lazy kinda person who needs things only one certain way.
Walking a mile and a half to school - or to one's workplace - is tolerable in most kinds of weather. Walking that distance to a train station, followed by an hour-plus train ride, followed by ten minutes on the subway, well that's a lot less pleasant.
It's not being on the train per se that's hard, it's the time away from home. Charles G has already written a response that pretty much sums up my views. As things now stand, I'm out of the house for about 12.5 hours each workday. Adding an extra hour or even half-hour onto that would be almost intolerable.
Life changes, my friend. If I'm up at 6 and into the office by 8 or 8:30. I don't leave the office until 6:30 or 7:00 most nights (some, like tonight 9:30), so I'll get home at 8:30 or so. If I'm going to get to be by midnight to do it all again that means I have 3.5 hours of personal time to play with the kids, relax, pay the bills, run a few miles sometimes, read SubTalk, etc. If I choose to walk to the station, that's 40-45 minutes of time wasted -- meaning I'll have less than 3 hours for the things I really want to do. It isn't that I can't walk -- it's that I'd be an idiot if I walked.
That all said, since changing jobs my office is now in Connecticut. I'm sure it horrifies you that I drive to the office most days, but 60 minutes each way in a car is far better than 2.5 hours on the LIRR/Subway/MetroNorth.
CG
Oh, as for school ending, try 3:05. That's 7 hrs of school. You say you don't leave until as late as 9:30. Oh wow! Big deal. Hell weeks I'm in until 11:30, plus antoher 3 hours of homework once I get home. But ya know what...I deal with it. I get those few hours of sleep, get up, and "waste" over an hour between leaving my house and starting school all over again. Why? B/c it's better that way. People offer me rides all the time. My reply, no thanks, I'll take the bus. Why? Cuz I give a damn and I'm willin to spend my time for it.
I don't think Trailways goes anywhere near Greenwich. Even if they did, I can't see their three or four busses a day on/off the island being any kind of frequency that would be acceptable to any commuter. Believe me, if there were a public transit option that could get me from the South Shore to Greenwich in less than 90 minutes and run with a reasonably reliable frequency I'd be all over it. I don't care if it was by wagon train.
I'm no fan of driving to work every day, even though I've found my way around most of the traffic. I used to get work done on the train, now I actually have to pay attention to driving. (It seems that the driving crowd really tends to frown on checking your e-mail while driving over the Throgs Neck Bridge).
I do take the train once in a while if I'm going to be in the office for more than 2 weeks straight -- just to break up the monotony.
CG
Where on the south shore are you anyway?
I would do a two or even three seat ride if it were consistently 90 minutes or less. 20 minute headways during rush hour aren't a problem, but there also needs to be some degree of reliable service until 9 or 10 PM.
CG
Agreed. Rush hour service on most routes are usually over by about 8:30. They really need to expand the frequent service to atleast 9:30. How bout this: Rush hour would qualify as 6-9:30 in the morn, and 4:30 or 5-9 in the evening. Times may vary on some routes though.
The system really needs to be improved all around. Trailways, Greyhound, and Shortline have excellent routes(especially Trailways IMO). I really wish they'd boost service during the rush hours. I've mapped out several new bus routes for a new company. The new company would also operate on those coach routes on LI as an extra service, with some more stops on some routes.
Just in case you're willing to try it out, I found something that while it is a bit longer than you wanted, may still work:
Adirondack Trailways: Leaves Freeport 7:00AM
Adirondack Trailways: Arrives New Rochelle 8:20AM
Metro North: Leaves New Rochelle 8:42AM
Metro North: Arrives Greenwich 9:02AM
2 hrs and 2 minutes commute time between the Freeport and Greenwich. 30 minutes more than you said though, so IDK.
Returning:
Metro North: Leaves Greenwich 7:41PM
Metro North: Arrives New Rochelle 8:02PM
Adirondack Trailways: Leaves New Rochelle 8:20PM
Adirondack Trailways: Arrives Freeport 9:45PM
2hrs 3 min. Bout 13bux RT on trailways, not sure how much on MN. I think the bus stop and train station are a few blocks away though.
I'd atleast do it once or twice a week, but it's up to ya. Just given you the info
1. A cross-Sound rail tunnel (or bridge?), along with a new north/south branch of the LIRR leading up to it. Imagine a railroad branch going from Deer Park station to Stamford, CT. I know it's a pipe dream...but it would be as useful as a new Hudson River tunnel, IMO. Could really be a great attraction for business and vacation travel too.
2. Enhanced ferry service...with smaller ferries for increased headways.
# 1 would be the coolest choice. And probably the wisest action to take, in the long run. Think of how it would change the travel patterns of the entire metropolitan area. In the short run though, a new grid of cross-Sound ferries along with good n/s bus (or, Lord help me, LRV) connecting services would work wonders. We gotta do something to effect travel pattern changes in the area. We're literally choking to death with all the cars and trucks and vans and cars and cars and cars clunking about.
As for the cross sound crossing, I say extend that I-287 rail line idea to Glen Cove. Trains could run New Haven to Far Rockaway(with the reconstruction of the Mineola-WH ROW). 287 line could go to OB maybe, or maybe rebuild the central and run it out east.
Oh, thanks for the compliment bout the schedule.
I agree on your comment on walking. Before the 22nd street station opened, (HBLR) I would bike 1.2 miles to the 34th street station each day. It took about 5 to 7 minutes depending on the lights. I'm not some Lance Armstrong but I found it easy and pleasant most of the time. I usually did it in dress pants and shirt. When it rained, I would wear a rain jacket. Gloves, ski mask and ear muffs were standard equiptment during the winter.
I found that riding a bicycle even during the cold weather for 7 minutes was easier than walking 20 minutes in that same temperature. The ski mask in my opinion, made biking even in the coldest temperature possible.
As a result, I never once took the bus in the past several years living in Bayonne.
At the work end of my train journey, I do take the bus, for three reasons: it's two miles, and uphill; when I tried it by bike (owning two bikes, one at each end), my second bike was stolen from the station over the weekend at the work end of the trip, despite being locked up; and the bus service at that end is better, every ten minutes.
Disadvantages: sweaty and wrinkly in your suit before work, soaked in your suit if it's raining, frozen in your suit if it's snowy, hair looks like you stuck your finger in a socket when it's windy.
That being said, I do agree it is probably healthier, but I don't know if I'd want to arrive at work looking like I just rolled out of bed after sleeping in my clothes and needing a shower.
Fair points, but they don't stop hundreds of people biking it to my station every day! Some wear biking clothes and change into their business clothes in the train bathrooms on the way to work (8-) , but they probably have longer bike journeys - things don't get too bad in one mile. At least being bald means I don't have the hair problem (8-) .
Walking is a way to "re-boot" your awareness of just exactly what it is you're doing when you hop in or on any powered vehicle to transport yourself. I don't think it's a good thing to totally divorce yourself from this awareness. After all, in the grand scheme of things, it is a fantastic adventure to be able to move about under your own steam. Especially in urban areas, but anywhere a provision has been made for pedestrian travel.
It's just a good thing to do. I make it a point to walk for at least an hour every day. Weekends, even longer. But it's true that you really have to orient your lifestyle around being able to incorporate walking into your daily rounds if you want to do it alot. You can either walk every day, even if you drive. Or move to a walkable community. Long Island, esp. Nassau, has a surprising number of them. To a varying degree. I'd say any town along the Babylon LIRR branch could be considered such. Places like Merrick or Rockville Centre or Massapequa have good walkable centers. Then there are some stops along the Mainline that have this advantage. Farmingdale, Hicksville, Westbury and Mineola come to mind. Also, roads like Hempstead Tpke and Merrick Road are good walking routes filled with stores and restaurants. And decent 7 days a week bus service.
Not saying a car is completely unnecessary in those places. But if you had to (and your workplace was transit-accessable) you could easily have that type of lifestyle. Big problem is, I think, that many people couldn't take the supposed blow to their egos, not being able to jump into their magnificent prideful vehicles to go even short distances. Maybe they are all too aware that folks driving past them as they walk are going to give them the same fish-eyed looks that they themselves give to walkers. It's like, some people think their car is another layer of skin.
Heh. I've walked the two miles or so home from Medford station on occasion when my car's been in the shop (my wife can drive me in the morning), and you are entirely correct about The Look you get from some drivers. It's like I was wearing a gorilla suit or something.
However, now that I have the second car, it rarely makes sense for me to use the bus or walk to the station. As for the "re-booting of awareness", I save that for when I'm running.
Unfortunately, the attitude you and others cite has made much of Long Island unsafe for walking. A few years back my father was hit by a car in downtown Oceanside. He was crossing with the light in a crosswalk and was hit by a car trying to quickly make a left turn before some oncoming traffic forced him to wait. The driver actually told the police "I never expected a person to be there". Oy.
CG
Particularly true in many parts of Suffolk (suburban Suffolk, not just rural Suffolk) that don't even have sidewalks. As a driver you even have to be careful for the people trying to walk or jog in the road because there are no sidewalks on many streets, even busy streets. Many of the "pedestrians" take their life in their hands by doing it at dusk, and right in the middle of the street sometimes!
Most parts of Suffolk would need to see bus service at least doubled in order for the average LIRR rider to be within walking distance of a bus stop. And that's not even mentioning the extra commuting time bus-train transfers would require, a big issue for people who already have long train riders.
Of course, I'm lucky being in Medford, where there's always parking at the station, albeit a station with limited service.
At the end of the day it all gets paid for somehow -- so I'd prefer to keep costs down where possible.
CG
The better alternative usually costs more, and this is no exception. The fewer cars on the roads the less congested they are, and their wont be as much pollution.
In general, I agree with that. However, I'm sure that they could reinaugurate service on the part of the Central line from Garden City to Merrick Ave. for a lot less than billions. There is plenty of space on the west side of Merrick Ave. for parking lots or garages that could serve areas such as East Meadow and Uniondale.
Agreed. New York Waterway tried this and failed. They had shuttles running through Jersey City but the motorist preferred to drive closer to the ferry.
Nah, it's a piece of cake. Sitting down in traffic is better than standing waiting for a bus or train? Just because you're sitting? Plenty of times I've been on highways where traffic crawled along for miles. Stopping dead. Moving slowly a few yards. Stopping dead. Yeah, I'm sitting down but it don't feel all that comfortable. Then you have to consider, cars break down, usually far from the exit, at night, in the rain.
Plus, nobody will stop you from walking around a little when you wait for your bus or train. Try doing THAT while driving...
I was talking about standing IN the bus or train, which is annoying and uncomfortable. Standing on a street or platform waiting for a bus or train is not so bad. Just try to walk around inside a bus! And standing on a bus is worse than on a train.
Trains and buses may be crowded, but pretty soon you'll be at your destination, and then you can leave.
While you are technically correct about both being a 3-seat ride it's hardly the same. Especially when the LIRR schedules its trains at 30 or more minute intervals. If the bus misses the connection, you immediately add 30 minutes to one hour to your commute. A bus is okay for stand alone transportation or for connecting with the subway with 6-8 minute headways but is too unreliable to make conections with the LIRR in Suffolk.
I actually have a detailed proposal for this that I developed many years ago, when asked to come up with a transportation plan for Staten Island. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of money lying around to pay off the legislature, so they have no reason to implement it.
People might be reluctant to ride with strangers.
YOU HAVEN'T MET!
I have another solution. Auction all the parking spot each month on EBAY. I'm sure the motorist would agree to paying more for a dedicated parking spot if it were held for auction each month. Heck. Some auctions may even go for low bids with the "PAY NOW" feature!
I came up with another idea. I'm on a roll folks.
Put up flyers around town saying you're willing to pay a local homeowner each month to park in their lot for XX amount of dollars. You never know what might happen. There just might be soneone in town how might let you park in front of their home for $100.00 dollars a month cash!
A few years back, the waiting list for parking permits at Metropark station in NJ was 7 years long (this was before they built the current multi-level parking structure -- now there is no waiting list). The parking permit was nothing more than a colored piece of cardboard that you displayed in your windshield. Monthly permits were bartered around town for all sorts of things. At one point, it was estimated that of all the cars parked in the permit lot on a given weekday more than half were displaying permits that had been transferred "off the record". Once you had one of these things being mailed to you on a regular basis -- you never gave it up.
CG
A few possibilities -- Freeport which has some under-utilized parking lots that could be converted to parking decks and reasonably good highway access from the Meadowbrook. Plenty of express trains running through Freeport during the rush hour already could have stops added if there were sufficient demand. Problem here is that the land is owned by the Village of Freeport, I'm not sure you could convince them to build a deck for outsiders unless it would pay for itself. You might be able to buy the land from them, though.
Belmont Park. Huge parking lots that are almost never filled -- at least not on weekdays. I don't even think you need to build a garage here. I have to think that a park-and-ride here could do well, as the local communities (Elmont, No. Valley Stream, Franklin Square) have no LIRR access and limited parking opportunities at the stations in other towns.
CG
Carle Place can fill up pretty quickly, all 10 spots. The problem is that the entire south side of the station is adjacent to houses or the park, and therefore has no parking.
If I'm getting there after 1pm or so, thats when I head to the main lot, and wait for a eastbound train and take a spot.
I wouldent consider taking LI bus because its about a half mile walk from my house to the N48(?) bus to take me to bellmore, and the bus only comes once an hour.
I should point out that I say this even though I do take the bus rather than drive. Of course the bus is only half a block away and it runs every 6-12 minutes. Since the transfer from the bus to the subway is free, it costs absolutely nothing. If I had the choice of walking a half mile to a bus I'd have to pay for and have to make sure to get there at a certain time, and then if I missed it have to walk all the way back home to get the car, I wouldn't even bother doing it once.
NIMBY: Before saying something, why don't you think? If Long Island Bus was more feasable for people, then more people would take it.
Also, during rush hour, alot of buses run frequently. I'm mean routes like N20/N21, N23, etc. People always ask me how I get places and I say the bus. They start askin me all sorts of questions about this bus they've never even heard of.
If I'm not mistaken, Baldwin does as well though that's a bit further.
CG
As an aside, I live in East Meadow. There is no station in East Meadow. The closest stations are in Hicksville, Westbury, Hempstead, Country Life, Merrick, Bellmore, Mineola, and Carle Place. Here is parking for each:Merrick-Lot fills up by 0700.Bellmore-Lot fills up by 0700.Hicksville-Requires Town of Oyster Bay PermitWestbury-High fee, not worth itHempstead-Limited parking a nice distance awayCountry Life-Limited parking filled up by 0700.Mineola-Most spots village only. If you're lucky you might hit the jackpot and find a vacant 12 hr meter and pay $3.E.Williston-Village permit required, not enough trains anywayCarle Place-Never parked there. Do not know situation, but not enough trains stop there anyway.
Too bad they dismantled the Central Branch before East Meadow was developed. There probably wouldn't be any parking anyway.
LI Bus? Yeah, right, I might ever take the bus to the LIRR. Yeah, right!!
I usually drive to Queens now and park on Jamaica Avenue for the "J" or Liberty Avenue for the "A".
BTW-Hicksville is the toughest to find a place to park, permit or not. Lot of Levittown people use Hicksville or Wantagh.
Bill "Newkirk"
"trew"? Obviously "through", I have no idea what I was typing there, I guess it's too early in the morning....
Peace,
ANDEE
Sayville seems to get reasonably close to capacity, at least compared to Islip and Oakdale, but never fills completely AFAIK.
The parking lot that really surprises me is Brentwood. It's on the super-popular Ronkonkoma line, is free and unrestricted, and isn't too far from the platforms. Should be packed very early, right? Not hardly. In fact, it never appears to be as much as half-full.
Don't bother about Carle Place, very few parking spaces on the north platform are available. I say very few, like New Hyde Park has more parking spaces (and that's not saying very much.).
http://mta.info/lirr/images/stationmaps/hempsteadgardens.pdf
CG
A lot of towns near train stations are doing that. They don't want the motorist taking up their parking spots. What's the poor motorist to do nowadays?
With the summer just around the corner, why not take a bicycle to the train station? The parking situation at the HBLR isn't as bad as the LI Railroad yet but I can see the situation getting that way in the next couple of years.
Using a bicycle, you get the best spot and can park real close to the train. In other words, the best spot is reserved for your use every day of the year!
My solution is that the LIRR should issue an ultimatum and tell the communities that have railroad stations, if they don't provide ample, reasonably priced parking for for both resident and non-resident commuters, the trains would just not stop at those stations any longer. I would give them, say, 2 years to comply.
By the way, Mineola doubled their meter rates on January 1 from a quarter an hour to a quarter a half-hour. It now costs $5-$6 for a day.
As a result there is plenty of parking now at Mineola - I would say that only about half of the available meters are being used on a typical weekday. They're certainly not bringing in much more money to the Village coffers than before the hike!
Also as a result, the free Town of Hempstead-run lot at the nearly Merillon Ave. Station now fills up before 6AM in the morning. The last train for which there is any parking remaining is the 5:58AM. Many people (myself included) who used to park at Mineola get up earlier to park free at Merillon Ave. rather than pay the $5-$6 at Mineola.
An excellent idea, though I'd give them a lot less time to comply.
I see this attitude on the park and ride lots for the HBLR. Local law inforcement tries to extract as much money from the motorist as possible. It's like these small towns try to make "profit centers" out of these parking lots. Insanity.
Other NYCT scenes are on my gallery, keyword subway.
Nice shots.
-Chris
1. Increase number of Greenport trains greatly, with some going to NYP during rush hours(Some making all stops to KO, then on to Farmingdale, Hicksville, Mineola, Jamaica, and NYP. The super express would run Greenport-Riverhead-Manorville-Yaphank-KO-Fdale-Hicksville-Mineola-Jamaica-NYP).
2. Relay Manorville-Eastport(new ROW required around game farm). During rush hour, run some trains from Montauk to NYP via that route. All stops from Montauk to Manorville(including re-opening of Eastport), then Yaphank, KO, Fdale, Hicksville, Mineola, Jamaica, NYP.
3. Build branch from Main line to Mac Arthur Airport and extend all electric trains from KO to the airport.
4. Extend Port Jeff line to Riverhead as originally planned. Run trains from Greenport, all stops to Port Jeff, then Stony Brook-Smithtown-maybe Northport-Huntington-Hicksville-Mineola-Jamaica-NYP
5. One train on Friday evenings and Sunday middays during the summer from NYP to Montauk, super express. Stops are NYP-Jamaica-Mineola-Hicksville-Babylon-Bay Shore-Patchogue-Southampton-Montauk. Other trains would make the same run with all the hampton stops on all days all yr round.
6. Suffolk County rapid transit system. Would run on current tracks and the relayed ROWs. Routes would be:
Montauk to Mac Arthur Airport via Manorville-Eastport
Montauk to Greenport via Manorville-Eastport
Montauk to Babylon via Montauk line
Greenport to Mac Arthur Airport via main line and new Mac Aurthur spur
Greenport to Huntington via Port Jeff extension to Riverhead
Babylon to Mac Arthur Airport via old hospital spur connecting main and montauk lines(From either Central Islip or Brentwood down to Islip).
The trains would make every stop on the lines including reopened stops like Water Mill, Center Moriches, Easport, and Manorville. I'm still trying to decide whether to just say reopen every station or just some of them.
The service at some stations(mostly the re-opened ones) would shift all their service to the rapid transit, while others would be served by both. This way, LIRR can run sort of like the express service of the rapid transit system, while the actual rapid transit makes every stop on the system.
Electrify the Port Jefferson line like it should have been 10 years ago?
Really, nobody's going to take the PJ when they can drive to a KO line station and get a faster direct train in. The LIRR's been fighting an uphill battle to get people to even think of the PJ line for years now. Nobody wants to change at Jamacia, nobody wants spotty service, and the DE/DMs are slow as shit and unreliable to boot. They should stop pretending that their crappy unreliable diesels are actually 'just like an electric' and wake up already. ask any PJ line rider - they would much rather electric service than the existing crap. It's why the yards have been opposed so much - people want the 'new electric yard' to be in Port Jefferson, not everywhere else where the RR wants to stick it.
Also, my plan called for direct NYP service. Maybe you should try to actually read it some time.
They were a mistake, but not as colossal a boner as ordering the M7's with 3x2 seating. That was a total disaster.
So now that we are stuck with them, in the short run they should increase service between Riverhead and Ronkonkoma with frequency like "Speonk to Patchogue" like service, and reopen Manorville as a station in the process.
One or two extra trainsets is probably all that would be needed.
First, LIRR rules call for MAS of 65 MPH in non-electrified territory. If the Port Jeff line were electrified, then the MAS could be increased to 80 MPH.
Second: Admittedly nitpicking but I don't believe that the Ronkonkoma Branch is actually referred to as the KO branch. KO refers to the interlocking at Ronkonkoma Station.
I think you're right bout the second thing. I was just in a rush when I was typing that so I just used KO.
I find the diesels better than the electrics. They have seats designed for normal human beings, not midget anorectic quadruple amputees. That makes a huge difference in one's comfort on a long ride. And the change at Jamaica's the ultimate easy-as-pie no-brainer.
Here's a small .bmp I assembled:
If you're going to electrify the rest of LIRR, forget the categary (too much NIMBY and not compatible with LIRR practices). Just put third rail into the rest of it and commit to a fleet that is all MUs. You can even have some MUs redesigned into bar cars or meal cars if you want.
People whose sole diesel-train experience involved the old coaches might be forgiven for harboring a dislike of the diesel lines. The old coaches had 3x2 seating, and in their latter years were in wretched condition. But the bilevels are far more comfortable, compared to the old coaches as well as to the electrics, that it's hard to understand how anyone couldn't appreciate them.
As for the prejudice against the change at Jamaica, well, I've given up trying to understand. It's usually about quick and easy as it could be.
Jamaica is easy too, most of the time. I admit to sometimes wondering, "Will I have to get off, run through a passageway to another track, then hope I didn't miss the transfer?" That isn't usually a rational thought, since most transfers are same platform types, but it's there.
Jamaica's even easier for regular riders, as in most cases they'll know what track their connecting train will be using.
You are right that most transfers are cross-platform types. It's rarely necessary to use the stairs.
Don't Spam your site neither...
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Regular cocaine also has a social cachet that crack definitely does not. It's sort of like the difference between Dom Perignon and Thunderbird. I mean, can you imagine celebrities and supermodels hanging around a nightclub's VIP room and smoking crack?
is it as good as cocaine?
The Redbirds were the new-tech cars of their day, and someday the R142s will be led off to the scrapper and replaced with something newer and presumably better. In the meantime you can just make due with what you have and enjoy having arguably the best subway system in the Western Hemisphere at your doorstep. Enjoy all car classes and the unique atmosphere they bring to the tunnels, for the time each spends in the system is limited and when they're gone you might just find yourself missing something.
D to Brighton Beach!!
I liked it better when they were running in service, not in line to take "the long barge ride."
Oh the humanity!!!....
At least Redbird fans still have this to visit now:
Saw too many streetcars go that way. (sob....)
1st - The MTA is selling surplus Redbird materials you can purchase as mementos. Some of the prices are unreasonable, but I'm sure people are willing.
2nd - Oren's (WMATAGMOAGH) transit website has some awesome photos and video clips of the Redbirds. Download and watch 'em! If you want to go even older, John's (Bombardier) website, SubwaySpot has video clips of the SMEE cars, of which the Redbirds are a part.
3rd - Mark S. Feinman has produced some great Redbird-oriented tapes and other transit content. Consider buying some.
4th - Photos and photos. Of course, you have SubwaySpot and Oren'sTransitPage as I said before. Also check out RIPTA42HopeTunnel and Sir Ronald's photo sections on their websites; you won't be disappointed.
I hope this helps.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Wait, I love the redbirds, that was just cruel... but true.
There still are some left right? enough for an 11 car (7) MOD trip?
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
D to Brighton Beach!!
You yourself have admitted the Brighton is your second favorite line - mainly because that's how you got to Ebbets Field.
You yourself have admitted the Brighton is your second favorite line - mainly because that's how you got to Ebbets Field.
The P and X only run on my fantasy service for fully SAS open(map in work):
A Inwood-Rockaways (8 Av X,CPW X,Fulton X; all times except nights)
B Inwood-BB (6 Av X;CPW L;Brighton X;all times 168-PP;wekdays to BB; nights to Inwwod)
C Norwood-WTC (8 Av L; CPW L; all times from 145;rush from BPB;nights from Norwood)
D Norwood-CI (6 Av X; CPW X;skip DeKalb; 4 Av X; all times except nights)
E 179-Lefferts (QB X; Hillside L;53 St; 8 Av X;Fulton L; all times; nights from QP)
F 179-CI (QB X;Hillside X;53 St;6 Av L; all times; rush from Kings Hwy; nights from QP)
G 179-Chruch (X-Town L;QB L;Hillside L; all times; non-rush from Smith; midday/rush from QP; weekend/even from FH; nights from 179)
J JC-Broad (BBway L;all times;rush/midday skipstop JC-BJ peak dir;off-peak dir JC-Myrtle)
K 179-WTC (QB X;Hillside L;53 St;8 Av L;weekday)
M Metro-Chambers (BBway peak X;all times; nights/even/weekend only Metro-Myrtle)
N 125-CI (Bway X; 4Av X;Sea Beach;skip DeKalb;all times;nights only 59-CI)
P JC-CI (QB X;skip 75 Av&Van Wyck;63 St;6 Av L;Culver peak X; weekday;midday from 2 Av)
Q JC-CI (QB L;63 St;Bway X;Brighton L;all times)
R Astoria-95 (Bway L;4 Av L; all times)
S Franklin-PP
T Chambers-CI (4 Av L; West End;weekday and nights rush to Bay Pky; midday to 9 Av;nights to CI)
X 125-Hanover (all times)
Z JC-Broad (weekdays skipstop peak JC-BJ;off-peak dir Myrtle-JC;BBway peak X)
... or functional!
AND... They CLEANED THE GLASS while they were changing the bulbs! :)
(Probably Replaced the Glass... maybe the new bulbs would not have fit in the old glass.)
Elias
http://www.newsday.com/news/columnists/ny-nysub033784044may03,0,2316818.column?coll=ny-news-columnists
Mr. Jabbour feels that the current map is old, too large, too loaded with unnecessary information and causing the subway system to be under utilized.
I was particularly amused by this criticism of the current map:
"Then, you have what Jabbour calls the "hidden line syndrome," the confusing system of grouping same color lines, such as 1, 2 and 3 lines along Broadway and Seventh Avenue in Manhattan, as one line... (In his map) Every train line is depicted with its own corresponding line on paper. It's easier to tell what train stops where on his map."
I don't know. He obviously has done his R&D work by buying maps on Ebay and studying them. But I'd really love to see his representation of the west side Central Park service. The current map has 3 distinct colored lines for the 1/2/3/9, A/C and B/D.
If I understand his creative concept, he would represent the service with 8 different lines.
You would think with all the publicity surrounding the 100th Anniversary, Mr. Jabbour would have had his map ready for the market.
Out of curiosity, I ran his name through Google along with Kick Design. Nothing came out on a web search, while there was 1 result in a Google news search, Ray Sanchez's article.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/1969.gif
The dotted lines were particularly useful to out of towners since dashed lines on highway maps usually indicated "not built yet or not opened yet" or some other warning sign of "CHECK this" before you look for it ... Even this 1972 map, after I left the system, was more useful than the pablum published today ...
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/1972.jpg
I don't think it's helpful to have a different color for every distinct route. People who are new to the system are most likely to be traveling in Manhattan. One color for each Manhattan trunk line makes the map easier to read.
http://community.webtv.net/hey-paul/EddieJabboursDesign
One of these days I'll get around to my map.
That would be great for the tourists, but less useful for, say, the Brooklynite who has to figure out how to get to Bayside. Also, weren't the "pop-up" bus connections added for the "new, improved" map in 1996?
As far as fumbling with the full-sized map, I suppose he's never seen the Z-card maps...
Especially for tourists it is probably the best. In other languages our letters sound different, even if they speak some English, trying to use a letter may confuse them. Point out a color and its more understood. As long as they're travelling within the CBD, where lines break off from the trunk is not a problem.
On a trip to NYC some years ago, I found a postcard with such a map on it - it obviously wasn't an official MTA offering, but I thought it worked.
If you need proper aspecting, buy a Hagstrom. :)
BTW even though the 1972 "spaghetti" map has been denounced as too complicated (a point with which I agree), I still think it has an interesting look - alas, the second time I visited the Transit Museum some years later, they'd run out of copies, so that section of my wall is still bare (sob!)
The 1972, I have one but it's old, tattered, and not worth collecting. Same for the other maps of that vintage, only had one and am missing several. Never thought there was much value in collecting subway maps, but I *do* have the one with the RJ, JJ and NX on it. Same deplorable browned out condition having sat in a cardboard box for too many years ...
Me, I never have. Call me a rookie, but it seems that everyone walks over to the map on the car wall. I'll bet a pocket version of the map would result in more folks unfurling the map in the train though.
Your pal,
Fred
:-) Andrew
- Murray Hill, Locust Manor, and St. Albans LIRR Stations
- Path of Nassau Street line between the Marcy Avenue station and the Williamsburg Bridge
- Paths of various ferries
So much for not blocking anything...
Turn the map around for LIRR information.
- Path of Nassau Street line between the Marcy Avenue station and the Williamsburg Bridge
Doesn't matter. No stations are blocked.
- Paths of various ferries
The buses are more important than most of the ferries.
"Our subways are underutilized," he said."
How stupid. The greater usage in Moscow has nothing to do with the map. It has everything to do with the greater respect for public transit in Europe, the less availability of cars in Moscow, the lower standard of living there, probably the greater density of more of the areas served by the subway there, etc., etc.
The one shred of truth here is that the NYC Subway System definitely is confusing to tourists, who often find it intimidating. But the reasons for this are varied and complex, and have a lot to do with the way the system was designed and assembled over many decades. To blame it all on the map is simplistic.
I do agree that comparisons to Moscow are ridiculous.
Anyway, here's a link to the image.
http://community.webtv.net/hey-paul/BetterShotofEddie
Seriously - it's not the multicolor that made sense to this (I suppose since the Party of God types INSIST on calling me a "liberal") "hippie type Santa Claus wannabee lookalike" but it's damned good. For those who NEED a map, the ability to put your finger on a line in an outer borough (or even "downtown") and trace it out to "this is the train I want" is both intuitive and actually PRETTY.
I endorse it. Seriously.
I think it's PERFECT for what MY opinion's worth. Accomplishes the same thing as the old spaghetti map without the morning acid hangover. :)
I'd quite like to have the line colors being different without being psychedelically so:
12394567SACESBDFVGJMZLNQRWS
Unless you have a super-duper colour calibrated monitor, nothing that you see on the screen is going to resemble anything in print in any case.
1/9234567SACESBDFVGJ/ZMLNQRWSY
But
He has 'cheated' by abbreviating the station names. St is missed off and just the number is given. It permits much more space. A few too many kinks too. Do passengers really benefit from knowing that the L and M are twisty-turny? Does the F really need the 'blip' at Prospect Park?
I'm not sure that every service needs its own strand. The main problem for intending travellers is surely the express-local distinction. This could be cured by showing two branching strands for each of the major routes. Thats how the A is shown in Brooklyn and Queens in any case.
If there is another deterent to travel, surely it is the different service patterns different days of the week and times of day. All these rush-hour only, weekday only, and tidal express services add to the confusion. That's not a map problem.
Granted. It's the flip side of the coin. The NYC subway is the world's most flexible subway, but the downside is that customers have a lot more information to digest.
I'm really like the look of the map.
http://community.webtv.net/R9Blues/MoreDetailOfEddie
I just would like to remark though, that some lines should/could be straightened out.
Brian... I'm posting whatever Mr. Jabbour has sent me, with his approval. I have never met him nor seen his map.
Seriously, JUST the way it's going ... it's PERFECT! And what REALLY makes it nice to this old timer in particular is the waviness to the lines as they work around other routes ... it combines USEFUL information, and for the first time *ART* to a subway map ... I doubt the adminiswigs and docudroids at the Teeyay could STAND such a concept, but I for one would PAY for a map like that ... The more I see of it the more I REALLY like it. And I'm a REAL fuss pot when it comes to changing things. (grin)
But in ALL sriousness, I really LIKE this one ...
The MTA *should* buy it though ... alas, I know better than expecting they'd do something SMART for a change at the top. :(
"There are actually 3 maps that are designed for the different information people need in different situations. The map you see here is the pocket Day / Evening map (8 5/8" x 11 1/4") small enough to really fit in a person's wallet. Unlike the current "Z" pocket map, this map has complete information for all the trains that stop at the stations. A companion map on the other side shows all the subway lines running from Midnight to 6 am. This map shows which stations you can crossover free in the opposite direction and which stations you can not, in case you miss your stop. The third map is the most comprehensive although it is only about half the size of the current transit map.
This map has all the information of the above two plus color coded neighborhoods (colored like the states are in a map of the USA) so you can see which neighborhoods the subway system travels in all 5 boroughs! (I will get a picture of this map to you as well, probably tomorrow). Unlike the pocket maps, this map also has a comprehensive grid of named streets.
One last note on all three maps. While stylized for clarity, all 3 are "station accurate" - meaning that all the stations are in relatively correct position to each other. This is unlike the famous or infamous "Vignelli" map (1972 - 1979) which distorted the positions of the stations / lines for graphic harmony. As one example, note the "L" line's path from Lorimer St. to Jefferson St. I hope this brief explanation helps. I am very interested in your suggestions and feedback once you can see more!"
-Alargule
I'd like to see how he handles major landmarks. I didn't grow up in New York. On my first visit alone, in my early twenties, I tried to reach the United Nations by subway. It won't surprise anyone to hear that I failed. I'm sure I was neither the first nor the last tourist to make the attempt.
I like the design, but I really don't think it does justice to some routes' hours of operation (The B, G, and M come to mind).
Another question - is this "Day/Evening" map intended to show weekend service as well, or only weekdays?
Also, different versions for different times? I thought this design was to cut down on the size of the map you carry? While it may do that you have to carry more maps if you're not travelling during one time period.
So long as he doesn't violate MTA copyrights (and there are other non-MTA NYC subway maps for sale out there) he can do it.
If noboy bought them, the stores would stop carrying them. I do not know exactly how popular they are, though. I don't have sales figures on them.
http://community.webtv.net/R9Blues/3rdMapLargeStation
I hope that the image is not suffering too much from the switch of his PC jpeg to WebTv and back to a PC screen.
Peace,
ANDEE
You MIGHT try dumping what's there (something's wrong with it but Netscape forgives to a far better degree than Internet Exploiter as far as "well, I've got MOST of the file, I'll show you what I got") and reuploading it. Maybe Kismet will smile. From what I saw of the UPTOWN area, Unca Selkirk's getting a boner. I *love* the division of neighborhoods and naming of same. I'd LOVE to see the rest of it. For all the whining about "it doesn't show the right schedule for this train" and such, the *MAP* just gets more delicious with each and every demo. This guy could give Hagstrom a SERIOUS run of competition. It JUST keeps getting BETTER AND BETTER!
If Eddie is following these posts, perhaps he could post the image here directly, or e-mail me another image of it, which I will forward to someone with a computer.
Might have just gotten corrupted on THEIR servers ... that last (ahem, kaff) "security update" of theirs hosed a LOT of machines, including theirs. And opened MANY brand new security holes, "Ashcroft-style" ...
In all seriousness, the file probably got damaged at MSN ... dump it, try it again, maybe it'll work. If not, wait until their next update later this month and MAYBE they'll fix some of those shiny new bugs that have me now sleeping less than 6 hours a day (18 on the job now) just trying to keep up with everybody blaming ME for software kissing the sidewalk (I swear on a stack of shoe slippers, there's *NO* mutation capabilities in what I sold folks, if I could make software do THAT, I'd be frigging RICH! Heh) ... But chalk it up to another "Billy boning" at track speed ... try pulling what you uplodaded, send it again - Might work. Windows lately has been as predictable as LOOTO. :)
Maybe I should keep hush to my co-workers here Hagstrom. ;)
I hope you're not trying to play "who can get the Hagstrom newbie fired first!"
Maybe I should keep hush to my co-workers here Hagstrom. ;)
I hope you're not trying to play "who can get the Hagstrom newbie fired first!"
Anyone who remembers Windows98 (NOT "second edition") can remember the screwage vividly ... "Oh, we're SO sorry you have Windows98, there are NO discounts or free upgrades to "second edition, NOW available during the midnight media event at BestBoy" ... after all, if you don't completely futtbuck what's OUT there, who's gonna buy another version of the same CHIT when it is proclaimed "Best Windows EVER?" :)
Seriously, the pooch's butthole is twitching. :(
To Mr Jabbour: I'm a big fan of this new map system. You've solved a lot of the problems that I myself had identified when looking over the tasks involved in designing such a map, and in the current one (I have considered doing a project like this for my Senior Project next year). I've actually blogged about your map on my site (permalink to article), I hope you don't mind me using the images and quotes which have surfaced on this board (with credit, of course).
I look forward to seeing more of this new map. I've love for an uncorrupted version of the midtown preview to be put up. One note: The neighborhood around Hell's Kitchen has been recently renamed Clinton. On your map, it's labeled "Clinton Hill" This is probably going to confuse a lot of people when compared to Clinton Hill in Brooklyn.
Great work showing the part-time stops and routes, also.
He has just sent me another view of the 3rd map which isn't as intense and hopefully Webtv can digest more easily.
http://community.webtv.net/hey-paul/EddieJabbours3rdMap
If this gets distorted, I have the original e-mail jpeg which I can forward to anyone who is interested.
http://community-2.webtv.net/R9Blues/NightTimeMap
"you have the Jersey trolley tunnel which is now over half completed across the Hudson River, which costs $10,000,000"
Which tunnel does this refer to?
It's on Sunday May 16th at 11:30 am, 1:30 pm and 3:30 pm. Tickets are $20 and must be purchased in advance at any of the following locations:
The Melting Pot 492 Atlantic Ave 718-596-6849
Circa Antiques 377 Atlantic Ave 718-596-1866
Silk Road Antiques 313 Atlantic Ave 718-802-9500
Bklyn Hts Bike Shop 278 Atlantic Ave 718-625-9633
A Cook's Companion 197 Atlantic Ave 718-852-6901
People are advised to bring a flashlight and wear sturdy shoes. The tour runs Rain or Shine.
I've never gone down there. I've heard that the tunnel might be uncomfortable for people who are claustrophobic or fearful of being trapped. Has anyone been on the tour?
--Mark
Hayos
Holy Crap, that's the tour I was on! You may be in some of my photos....
It's not that bad, really. As Mark indicated in his post, it's a relatively narrow walk after descending through the manhole cover, but once down there the tunnel is quite large, cool, and a bit damp, but there is natural light coming through in a couple of places. My older son and I went back in '97 or '98; not sure I would do it again now due to my worsening arthritis, but I'm glad I did go then. I'm somewhat claustrophobic and didn't have any problems - it's wide open down there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you gotta get down on your hands and feet or something before entering the main segment of tunnel?
Yes, yes, and yes.
Here are some photos from my 1994 tour of the Atlantic tunnel. Most are from the area right at the beginning. I don't have too many quality ones of the actual tunnel itself, as most are too dark to post (I didn't have that great of a camera at the time), but the majority of the tunnel is much larger than these photos would show. Part of the tunnel has been filled in, and that is the "small area" shown in these phtos that you have to crawl through to get into the non-filled in section of the tunnel.
This is the manhole cover you must got through to enter the tunnel:
This is the "filled-in" area of the tunnel that you must go through to get to the "not filled in" section of the tunnel:
View on the side of "passageway" where you are really high up on the filled in section. Notice original brick ceiling:
This is the "hole" you have to crawl through and down to get from the "filled in" area to the main part of the original intact tunnel. The first image is from the crawl area looking into the tunnel, the second one is taken in the opposite direction, from the main tunnel looking to the "hole" to the filled in area that you must enter through:
The tour ended with a tour in Red Hook with a tour of Mr.Diamond's trolley barn, back when there was so much hope for trolleys. Of course, that won't happen now with the unfortunate end result of his project. I don't feel like scanning those photos now, but will at a later date.
AcelaExpress
-Acela
Also, forget hardcore, you really aren't much of a railfan at all.
Acela
The reason the tunnel was built was because steam locomotives in use at the time could not negotiate the grade at that point on Atlantic Ave.
Maybe I'll catch some of you guys there. Instructions are to wear a good pair of shoes and bring a flashlight, so this should be good :)
You'll find the article here:
http://www.downtownexpress.com/de_51/trainsplanes&shelly.html
Actually, I shouldn't be surprised. It took NYCT two plus years to replace a single escalator at Boro Hall, so why shouldn't it take seven years to open a 20 block subway line?
The advantage of cut and cover -- the entire line was under construction at the same time. Here, most of the work will not start until the TBM goes by.
I really feel that when we celebrate the 100th birthday in less than 6 months, MTA and NYCT should erect a memorial honoring the lives that were fallen in the building on NYC's first subway. I don't care if they put the memorial or plaque anywhere, just put it SOMEWHERE for the spirit of the people.
Why not all?
I'm not surprised. A huge construction project will have to take place AFTER the hole is there, and putting the hole there will take some time.
To me, the travesty is that the portion north of 96th Street will not be funded. Because it is cut and cover, there is no engineering reason why it couldn't be done at the same time.
Read Chapter 3 of the FEIS. It's a veritable treatise on subway construction, and you get a new appreciation of why it's a 7-year process.
Comparisons to 1904 aren't really relevant. In those days, they were willing to shut down the entire avenue for cut-and-cover construction, and they didn't care how many properties and parks they displaced. They also didn't have to build connections to existing underground lines, and there were far fewer utilities and other sub-grade obstructions to worry about.
To me, the travesty is that the portion north of 96th Street will not be funded. Because it is cut and cover, there is no engineering reason why it couldn't be done at the same time.
A good deal of the section north of 96th is not cut-and-cover. Again, read Chapter 3.
There's no set answer. The FEIS suggests that some sections will be tunneled north-to-south, and others south-to-north. They could even do both in the same section: dig one of the tubes, then disassemble and turn the machine 180 degrees, and dig the other.
My guess is that it'll take ten years from the start of construction (if work ever starts, that is).
Given a perfect world, things would be done more quickly, but given the concerns that must be dealt with (having a minimal impact on traffic, not impacting on the businesses and residential buildings in the area, one of the area Community Boards is completely against any lane closures on Sunday), it's a miracle that things are going as quickly as they are.
Generations ago, the city could say "get out of the way" and people would, and work would be done comparatively quickly. Those days are gone.
You're right! In my haste, I failed to consider that fact. Men were treated worse than pack animals back then. Leave in the pertinent measures that protect the health, and physical safety of the workers. Taking it all into consideration, it's still possible to build it relatively faster to what's being planned IMO.
Dont' feel bad. Let's put it in perspective.
It will probably be 20 years before i get HSR, which all the plans and studies are done!. 2-3 years for another mile of trolley track. I estimate 15 years for 20miles of LRT in Tampa, which even has FTA approval to be built now! I doubt that schumcks will gimme monorail either, which would definately get approval!
And Orlando spent millions on a system that had a start date of 1999! And I could go on about highways. :)
I honestly dont' get why it takes so long to build any of these things, but at least yours is going to be built before anyone elses!!! I wonder where houston would be by then!
Keep in mind that the "seven year" timeframe for the Second Avenue line surely will grow like Pinocchio's nose.
MTA has shown the ability to finish projects on schedule or even early given full funding commitments and cash showing up on time.
Keep in mind that the "seven year" timeframe for the Second Avenue line surely will grow like Pinocchio's nose.
Part of the constraint on how fast they can build is how fast the money shows up in the checking account to pay the contractors. That schedule is something MTA does not directly control.
Having used to work in front of "The Pit" on 41st Ave in Long Island City, I see the slow process everyday, from the time the contractors put up the boards to create the construction zone, to the completion of two ventaliation plants.
They did a lot more than that.
"Having used to work in front of "The Pit" on 41st Ave in Long Island City, I see the slow process everyday, from the time the contractors put up the boards to create the construction zone, to the completion of two ventaliation plants."
Indeed. What you didn't see was the moving of asewer siphon, the construction of slurry walls and other measures to keep ground water out of the subway (always a scourge in Queens), the diversions built to allow construction to proceed without stopping subway service through the corridor, and of course the restrictions imposed by working in a cut and cover situation. That, plus the complete rebuild of 3 miles of track (adding crossover switches and signals to the rest of the 63rd Street line).
All ccomplished on weekends and at night. What times were you in front of the pit?
If you want to read more about the project, look up the 63rd Street line section here on Subtalk.
OK. By the way, I also communicate off-line with other Subtalkers sometimes, and I do not share their names or subjects of communication on Subtalk unless they specifically say OK. That's seems to be standard Subtalk etiquette.
"and during lunch hour or before/after work, you can walk a block up from the office building to the pit or take the S/B N train from 39th Ave station and see the progress."
Very cool - whatever you could see from the pit.
"And you are wrong again, the work was done on weekdays at the pit,"
No, I'm not wrong. I was not referring only to the pit. I was referring to all the different elements of work that, if they were done during the day, would force an interruption to subway service. Sure there were workers visible to you at the pit - but that doesn't mean you saw the whole project, or even most of it. For that, you had to be in the construction area under Northern Blvd. as well as up and down the 3 mile line. I woul have liked to see that. I did see som work first-hand in the tunnwl itself - my F train or E train would slowly roll by the section of tunnel brilliantly lit by sodium floodlamps, and I saw workers on stepladders, doing various things. Too bad I didn't have a camera on me.
"while evening and weekend work was restricted to the exisiting portions of realinging Queens Blvd."
The job was just a "realignment," and what you're referring to was the vast majority of the work. What you're doing is like describing the iceberg that hit the Titanic by only looking at the part above water.
Take a closer look at this and then we can discuss this further.
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/6thave/
I meant the job was NOT just a realignment.
That was a mega-travesty.
Including you, by the way.
:0)
I'd encourage anyone who doubts the timeline to read Chapter 3 of the FEIS, and enlighten us what steps they'd leave out, or how they'd accomplish them faster.
Read all about it. Harold Harmatz's obituary is in the NY Times today.
--Mark
He also wanted to build a bridge across the Battery that would have obliterated much of Lower Manhattan (it became a tunnel instead). A number of his Brooklyn highway projects were defeated, including one that would have occupied the area that's now Brooklyn Heights promenade.
Robert Moses built the Promenade, along with the BQE beneath it.
That's because his original idea was killed by community opposition. Go visit the Promenade, and there's a plaque there explaining how it came into being. Moses wanted the highway to be at the present street level, which would have run right through the neighborhood.
If it was killed, there would be no BQE. It was modified to appease the community, much like the addition of a 116 St station to Second Avenue. Does the plaque mention that Moses built the Promenade on the condition that it would be publicly accessible, versus the community's intent of restricting it to Heights residents only?
Those who love to vilify Moses also tend to overlook his establishment of over 20,000 acres of parkland and construction of 265 playgrounds.
Moses prevented NYC from adding two transit tracks to the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, forever dooming Staten Island to being the NYC borough without any direct rail access to any other NYC borough.
To see the real impact of a Moses project, look at the Bronx neighborhoods leveled to make room for the Cross Bronx Expressway. My wife lived at Walton Ave. and 174th, adjacent to where the X-Bronx goes under the Concourse and the D train. The construction blasting and pedestrian detours, besides the forced relocations of hundreds of apartment dwellers who were uprooted, irreperably damaged a stable working class neighborhood. To this day, she say that the Cross Bronx was the beginning of the end of the neighborhood she knew as a young girl.
He also vetoed leaving space for future rail transit on a number of highways, such as the Van Wyck. Given that he was obliterating the neighborhood anyway, making the highway an extra 25 wide would have made no difference, and the trains could then have been added quite easily later on.
So it isn't merely the case that he preferred highway projects to transit projects. Even in his highway projects, he did everything to ensure that no train could ever run over his right-of-way.
To this day, she say that the Cross Bronx was the beginning of the end of the neighborhood she knew as a young girl.
Less famously, I think the BQE did much the same thing. You look at the buildings on either side of that highway, and try to imagine what those neighborhoods were before a deep gash was ripped through the middle of them.
And with regard to the BQE I assume you're talking about the stretch from the Kosciuszko Bridge to Tillary Street as it slices through Greenpoint, Williamsburg, and the Navy Yard area.
I, for one, do not overlook these accomplishments. However, you cannot entirely rehabilitate the reputation of a very sadly misguided individual, by showing that he also did good things. It's not for nothing that, in New York, the phrase "Robert Moses era" has nothing but the most terrible associations.
It has also been pointed out that Moses's style evolved. It's hard to believe that the same man who built the beautiful parkways on Long Island also built the Cross-Bronx Expressway, which made no pretense of fitting into the community. Comparatively affluent residents of some Brooklyn communities were powerful enough to stop him; residents of the Bronx were not.
When you read any of the environmental impact statements on the MTA website (SAS, South Ferry), you find an obsession with avoiding even relatively minor disruptions to the community (e.g., the loss of a few trees). This is what Robert Moses hath wrought. Moses obliterated neighborhoods, and said, "If you want to make an omelette, you have to break a few eggs." Break them he did.
And this was the same man who made the overpass clearance on the LI parkways so low that it would not accomodate buses, restricting the access to the public who could not afford cars?
This is a wonderful thing. The Long Island Parkways are much more pleasant to drive on than the LIE.
When the researchers at TNO Human Factors in Soesterberg played recordings of maglev and normal trains that mimicked the sound levels in houses near railway lines, study participants rated the maglev noise as more disturbing than standard intercity trains, Nature Science Update reported on April 19.
Quoting the Dutch publication, United Press International wrote, “Strong magnetic fields suspend maglev trains a few inches above their tracks, while electromagnetic forces between train and track propel them.
The reduced friction allows maglevs to run at about twice the speed of current intercity trains. Prototype maglev trains have been tested in Japan, Germany and China.
The first commercial line, built by German company Transrapid, opened between Shanghai, China, and the city’s Pudong Airport in 2003, and has clocked a record speed of more than 300 miles per hour. In the U.S., projects are planned for Pittsburgh and Baltimore.
At high speeds, however, the maglev sound is similar to that of some aircraft, and study subjects considered maglev noise worse than intercity trains. Many said the maglev noise made them feel insecure, some found it startling, and disliked the occasional shrill sound the maglevs produced.
from:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05032004.shtml#Maglev
Mark
Funny how the source of the noise is not described in the article, nor the decibel level. If it is air friction, would not better aerodynamics eliminate the noise? Surprised that DF would publish such an anecdotal article with little to no evidence.
On Friday, I got myself a new digital camera at J&R and started taking pictures. Of course, I've put them up on the Web.
Click on the HBLR car to enter.
What are the specs of your new camera and what do you recommend for buying one (as I will hopefully in the next month or two) J & R as you have or B & H (I hear those radio ads all the time on 1010 WINS).
Being that I've never been to B&H, I wouldn't aw which is better, but J&R is easier to get to by subway. Just take the 4 or 5 to Fulton Street.
By the way, is it possible for you to get a photo of the new tilework at Roosevelt Avenue? There's one spot where you can get a really nice photo of the old "ROOSEVELT" tile with the new "ROOSEVELT" tile next to one another.
Most people don't like them, but I do. It's a nice modern look for the IND!
The tiles may have the wrong font, but I'm growing used to them now.
Thanks to 9346 for the shot. =)
An alternative transportation commission held a little competition, or test if you will. Between a natural gas powered car, the subway and a cyclist, who would be the quickest between Junior's and Columbus Circle?
The winner was the cyclist.
Now where is the link to this story? And did all three modes of transportation depart at the same time? or were the trip times measured purely in terms of departure and arrival?
It was on TV, didn't see it on the site. Good question, one I hadn't thought of and assumed (as will many people) that it started at the same time.
And I do agree if he didn't stop for red lights, he'd be cheating. However in NYC I believe he did, or he wouldn't have arrived at Columbus Circle alive. :)
The subway ride is 30 to 40 minutes, depending on connections.
Remember that, with stops, 15 miles per hour is pretty good for a local train. You need to add walks, waits, and transfers to that.
The ride home? It took an hour. Much tougher going UP the Park Slope.
If you shed some pounds and use a more efficient bike, you'll probably be able to shave off 10 to 15 minutes.
The subway ride is 30 to 40 minutes, depending on connections.
One benefit for the bicycle is that travel time will be nearly constant day after day.
--Mark
Mark
They don't quite work with business attire either. You arrive at work sweaty.
I actually wrote up a business plan to solve this problem while at City Planning. It was 12 years ago, when our first child was born, all available time disappeared, and jogging five times per week ended. Which is to say, 30 pound lower than today (though today I am 40 below the peak).
I realized I needed a way to get exercise without time. Space is also at a premium in New York. So I conceived of a "health club" in Lower Manhattan which would provide a cedar closet for all of one's business attire, bicycle storage, shower and towel, and a health-conscious breakfast spot. The idea is that one would bike in, THEN shave and shower and put on a suit, then walk to work. On the way home, the suit would be dropped off, and the bicycle clothes put back on.
As I conceived it, the base fee (clothes and bike storage, shower, towel) would be equal to buying tokens for travel to work (net cost zero). The business could also make money from the food, and from dry cleaning and laundry (no need to bring the suits and shirts home).
Anyway, I found out that such a business would have zoning problems (don't ask) and (if the law were followed) would require six months to a year before lease signing before construction could even begin. That pretty much killed off a start up. With business casual, I'm not sure the suit issue is as important, at least not on Friday.
Back in the 70's and early 80's, showers were available at Grand Central for "long distance" travellers. Bike parking for the day was handled by "checking" it at the parcel room.
Sounds like a good idea, until I remember what the city was like and wonder if I would have been willing to take a shower in Grand Central at the time. Going to the bathroom was bad enough.
Back in the early '80s, GCT was a hell-hole, particularly the bathrooms. Taking a shower there would have been a non-starter for anybody who actually held a job.
BTW: Where were the showers? I only recall the bathrooms at the south-west section of the building, accessible from the front waiting room. IIRC, all the stalls had the doors removed to discourage illicit activity from taking place in them. Actually using the stalls for their intended purpose was an experience best avoided like the plague. They were used only in the case of dire emergency.
Anyway, in the bathrooms I recall, I don't remember any showers. Where were they?
Finally, as for the idea of a place to stash your clothes & take a shower every day after biking, isn't that what is offered by a heath club?
Health clubs have more facilities for exercising within them, and less for storing clothes and bicycles, than what I envisioned.
Mark
The winner was the cyclist.<<<<
They hold this race each year during Bike Week. The motorist always loses because they get stuck going over the bridge during rush hour. Driving thorugh cross town traffic alone can take 20 minutes! What suprised me was the fact that the subway rider also lost the race. The 4 train travels at about 12 - 15 miles per hour on the elevated portion outside of Manhattan. The race starts in Brooklyn during rush hour so it can drop times to under 10 miles per hour. As you can imagine, a good bicycle can reach 15 or 25 miles. I can keep up with the subway on the elevated portion on my bicycle and it's not hard at all. I just don't do it because of the noise!
As for cheating, who says the motorist doesn't cheat? The average motorist will break some kind of traffic violation every 20 minutes!
You forgot to mention the time spent waiting for the train and then if somone holds the door or there traffic ahead it could take much longer. Then you have to count the time spent getting into and out of the subway itself. From start to finish, it would probably take a good 35 to 45 minutes easily.
Couldn't there be traffic that would impede the cyclist? Couldn't it rain? Couldn't the cyclist be hit by a truck?
I wasn't trying to imply that the bicycle isn't an effective means of transportation -- just that some Bike Week PR stunt isn't really the best way of measuring it.
Look at it this way. If your 100 of your average SubTalkers hopped on bicycles in front of Junior's one afternoon, what would be the average time that it took for them to get to Columbus Circle. (I know, you have to correct for people who just go inside to eat cheesecake and also those who get distracted and start watching trains go over the Manhattan Bridge).
CG
Here's a link to the calendar of events for Bike Month
http://www.transalt.org/calendar/bikemonthweek2.html
I've been pondering the best bike route. I have two possibilities:
1. Junior's --> Brooklyn Bridge --> Chambers Street --> Hudson Street --> 8th Ave --> Columbus Circle
The lights on Hudson Street are timed pretty nicely.
2. Junior's --> Brooklyn Bridge --> Chambers Street --> Hudson River Bike Path --> Columbus Circle
The advantage here is there is a dedicated bike path. There are stop signs and traffic lights affecting the path, but there is no worry about traffic or having doors opened in your face. You would have to pay back a couple of avenues when you get up to 59th Street.
Transportation Alternatives does have the results on their website.
http://www.transalt.org/press/releases/040503bikemonth3.html
I called TA and asked for details of the bike route, but the man who answered didn't know. This year the rider was Paul S. White, the Executive Director of TA. Interestingly, Gene Russianoff, Senior Attorney for the Straphanger's Campaign, did the subway part of the race.
In the previous two years the winner was Sarah Oakes, who rides to work from Williamsburgh.
For an interesting article about Ms. Oakes
http://www.transalt.org/press/magazine/032Spring/23commuter.html
Hmmm... did you just thank yourself?...
Anyway thanks for the info. Fox just gave a quick story and not much detail.
I've been pondering the best bike route. I have two possibilities:
1. Junior's --> Brooklyn Bridge --> Chambers Street --> Hudson Street --> 8th Ave --> Columbus Circle
The lights on Hudson Street are timed pretty nicely.
2. Junior's --> Brooklyn Bridge --> Chambers Street --> Hudson River Bike Path --> Columbus Circle
The advantage here is there is a dedicated bike path. There are stop signs and traffic lights affecting the path, but there is no worry about traffic or having doors opened in your face. You would have to pay back a couple of avenues when you get up to 59th Street.
Toro-papa replied:
"The Manhattan Bridge is much more direct than the Brooklyn Bridge."
I would agree. I use the Manhattan Bridge more often on the bike, because it is not crowded and gives more of a gritty look at Brooklyn & Manhattan.
Using the Manhattan Bridge would be better as it does leave you off further north at Canal & Bowery. I didn't pick it, because the traffic on Canal is heavy with a lot of truck traffic. But thinking about it now, you could ride up a block or two on the Bowery and ride Hester or Broome over to the West Side. Or I suppose you could zip up Bowery into 3rd and go from there.
I put up a post at the Transportation Alternatives Message Board asking for the route that Paul White took.
I've been watching the progress on the bike path on the other side of the Manhattan Bridge. They have a lot of the fencing up. They are still working on the Manhattan ramp leading off the bridge, which looks like it is new construction. I'd really like to be the first official rider over the new path.
I really like the Manhattan Bridge bike path. Some people complained about the protective fencing being obtrusive, but I feel quite secure and not uncomfortable with being so high up in the air.
Thanks to HeyPaul for the TA-SubTalk follow-up.
(Straphangers Followup: http://www.straphangers.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=000106
When the N bullet on the interior rollsign is placed upside down, an upside down W or Diamond W will show on the outside.
On the R-68/68a, an upside down Diamond Q will show on the exterior.
All 8 (It was an R-68a) rollsigns that went by had an upside down Diamond Q. I wonder if anyone got in trouble for that. They were half right at least.
Not very difficult if you have been at this station, but if you haven't, the answer may surprise you.
That IS Queens Plaza with a new balcony overlooking the platform underneath.
Throw another one..
Chuck
Alternatively, a membership application can be printed from the West Jersey Chapter website and mailed to the Chapter's post office box.
If anyone reading this and is interested in old train photographs, go to the West Jersey Chapter website and click on "Trebino Collection".
LOL!
I payed my fare and boarded a PATH train; my first time on PATH since 5 years ago. The train filled up, but I was lucky enough to get a seat. The train started out slow into Harrison, but afterwards picked up a damn lot of speed! I couldn't believe how fast that train went; it seemed like it was going to flip over (keep in mind I'm from Philly). Also, how fast does that train get to?
A little while later, we arrived at Journal Sq. and the train virtually emptied out. A few minutes later we arrived at WTC. It was amazing, seeing the area so built up again! I watched out the window onto the WTC site, which was a bit sad. Leaving the train, one immediately notices how this is a temporary station. I was impressed with it, however, and I took some time to look around and explore the station, before buying a fare card for my ride home.
I made my way into the "E" train WTC station, and used the Metrocard I'd had from last time (it had $2 left). The train pulled up and I boarded. The train skipped Sping St. (Anybody know why?), which got me confused, but made all other stops. The train wasn't too full at all. Leaving at 7th Av., the "D" train I was boarding pulled up just across the platform. I boarded the crowded train and held onto a pole. I was looking forward to the long express run between 59th and 125th, which I had never encountered. After 59th St., we passed through 72nd St., and from that point I could tell the train wasn't going to speed up-- how disappointing! The train was smooth but slow; the 37 mph speed on this stretch is pretty rediculous, seeing how fast trains could possibly hit in this 3 mile straigtaway. After passing through 110th St., the train moved almost at a standstill to 125th. The train was also very slow from 125th to 135th, and 135th to 155th. The ride between 155th and 161st was rather fast, though.
I went out to the stadium-- great game! One of the best I've ever experienced. 9 innings, 2 hot dogs, and 2 beers later, I was ready to continue the rail part of my trip. I waited for the stadium to clear for about 20 minutes, and then walked outside and all the way back around to River Av. to the 4 train station. The station was really busy; the lines were down the stairs!! I didn't want to wait, so I went down into the subway and bought a new Metrocard. I went through the underground turnstiles and used the long escalator back up to the el station where the 4 was. As I went up to the platform, I had just missed the train! I waited about 10 minutes, when a nice, clean, empty R-142 slowly pulled into the station. I got a seat at the end of the fifth car-- no railfan window for me this time :(. The train filled up by 149th, and right after 149th, the operator announced that "due to construction, the 4 train would be running local to Brooklyn Bridge, and there was no 5 train service".) Oh well. It was interesting to hear the recordings say "This is a Brooklyn Bridge Bound 4 Local Train". I recorded it onto my cellphone. The train was standing room only by 125th, but I was lucky to have a seat at the end of the car. The ride was slow, but I enjoyed it! Also, due to electrical construction, the lights in the train went out in 3 places: between 125th and 116th St., between 86th and 77th St., and between 42nd and 33rd St. The train began emptying out at 42nd St., and by the time we got to Astor Pl. there were seats available again. I decided to get off the train at Canal, where I walked down 2 platforms to get to the J platform. I took the J train downtown one stop to Chambers, where I made a cross platform transfer to an already waiting "J-Shuttle" train, which was running back and fourth from Chambers to Court St. in Brooklyn. I took the train one stop to Fulton, where I got off.
I ate dinner at the seaport, and then was ready to move on to Hoboken. When I got back to the WTC station, only one track was opened. It turned out that the only train running to WTC last night was the Newark train, and that all Hoboken bound passengers had to transfer at Grove St. I transfered to a Hoboken bound train at Grove St., which took me to Hoboken in a short amount of time. Once I got to Hoboken, it was getting dark out, and the town was busy. Instead of going back to the NJT terminal as I had planned, I headed for the HBLR-- I had never ridden it before.
I bought my ticket and boarded a train a little after 8:30. I rode for about 10 minutes to Exchange Pl. I was very impressed with the HBLR-- it was very smooth and swift, and the stations were modern light rail stations, yet not overdone as in some cities. Getting back to Exchange Pl., I took a ride down a loooong escalator to a mezzanine level, where I went back to the PATH platform-- I had just missed a train. About 15 minutes later, I boarded a Newark Bound train, and arrived at Newark about 15 min. later. The ride once again, between Grove St. and Journal Sq. and between Journal Sq. and Harrison was extremely fast-moving.
All and all, it was a good day!
Wrong.J's were running to Prospect Park as has been the practice the last 2 times this GO occured.
Da Hui
If you are from Philly then you should be used to the wonderfully high speeds of the BSS, MFL, PATCO, and Norristown High Speed Line. Of those four, only the Market Frankford line trains probably don't go faster than PATH's top speed.
Also, how fast does that train get to?
Using my handheld GPS device, I've clocked a PATH train doing 62.3MPH!
Thanks for posting your report. I'm glad you had a good time.
-The BSS local trains (never ridden an express) are slow as hell!
-PATCO is pretty fast in some places, but stations are pretty frequent, so PATH seemed faster
-Only once have I ridden the Norristown High Speed Line, but don't remember much about it.
-The MFL is extremely slow in most places, except for the area between 15th and 30th, in which I think trains get up to (50?).
Obviously it is the express trains that are fast. The express trains can go over 60 MPH.
-PATCO is pretty fast in some places, but stations are pretty frequent, so PATH seemed faster
While PATH is only fast on one stretch, PATCO is fast the whole time it is above ground. It goes over 60 MPH between stations.
-Only once have I ridden the Norristown High Speed Line, but don't remember much about it.
This line routinely reaches speeds over 60 MPH.
-The MFL is extremely slow in most places, except for the area between 15th and 30th, in which I think trains get up to (50?).
Jersey Mike can better address this, but yes, there is one particularly fast underground section in the 50 MPH range and some fast above ground sections that I think come close to or over 50 MPH. Additionally, between stations these cars reach higher speeds than NYC Subway cars, and probably equal to PATH cars.
Catenary down explained ...
Squirrel on wires delays trains
NEW HAVEN, Conn. - A squirrel running along Metro-North Railroad's
overhead wires yesterday morning caused delays of up to an hour for
thousands of New Haven Line rail commuters, according to the
Stamford Advocate.
Shortly before 7:50 a.m., a squirrel on the wires above the New
York-bound local track in New Rochelle, N.Y. caused an insulator to
explode, killing the animal and breaking a wire in half, according to
Marjorie Anders, a Metro-North spokeswoman.
A 7:24 a.m. semi-express, originating from Stamford and scheduled to
arrive at Grand Central Terminal at 8:22 a.m., hit the broken,
low-hanging wire and damaged three pantagraphs.
Wires then fell onto a nearby track, and with another track under
construction, "we were left with only one track in service for the
morning rush," Anders said.
Twenty-four peak-hour southbound trains were delayed about 20
minutes, and 12 northbound trains were delayed up to an hour. There
were also scattered delays along the New Haven Line until all repairs
were completed at 2:45 p.m.
The disabled train was towed to the Stamford rail yard.
(This item appeared in the Stamford Advocate May 2, 2004)
Did PETA hold a funeral for Rocky ? That would keep them busy until the next protest for the unethical treatment of fruit flies appears on the news.
Bill "Newkirk"
...Three days later...
...long, long, long, long, long, long lost cousin, Dimbulb! ROFLMAO.................
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Host : Villains NEVER get top billing !
Boris (dismayed ) Oh !
Host : So tune in next week to Rocky and his Fiends ... I mean, Friends !
This off-topic public disservice announcement comes to you courtesy of Baby Boomer Terminal TV Addiction and Kibitzing !
Don't make it worse; it's Badunov !
Chuck Greene
Your pal,
Fred G
I'll be going home on Monday.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Thanks for any answers and I look forward to seeing everyone there (provided I do go of course).
I'm writing an article for Antique Trader on the collectibility of NYC Subway Stuff - anything from tokens and roll-signs to station signs and subway car builder plates. Thus I'm going out on a limb for some useable, positive quotes from collectors - What you like, general values, what is popular, what is really odd-ball. I will eventually need your real name and location.
Thanks
George Cuhaj, Iola WI.
My dad was an 'A' man at 207th, 1967-93.
Not exactly what I was looking for. Actually, if you would go to the New York Public Library Exhibit at the Science and Industry Branch on 34th and Madison, It is items from my father's and now my collection of Subway Stuff which makes up all of the non-book, three-dimentional items in the display (except for the Transit Museum's ticket chopper). I'm not out to always buy stuff cheep, and yes, I do follow the internet auctions. And soon I'll have a very nice article posted by David on the subway site, which even you may enjoy, as it will be FREE!
George
The slide lecture at the Library exhibit was April 22, however a second may be sceduled for October when I visit NYC again.
George
Actually, I'm not interested in selling stuff here. What I wanted to get a feel for is what folks find collectible. Yes, I am quite familiar with ebay, but does anyone try to put together a set of brass builder's plates, or porcelain car numbers?
George
These days most people are on e-bay. The NY Division use to have an annual auction during their October meetings.
Phil Hom
I have been friends with Howie and Suzane Samelson since the 70s also, and was also in their 33rd Street location. Sadly they closed the store long ago, however remain interested in "stuff"
George
I recently started collecting the 4X4 tiles put out by Transit Tiles that are sold at the museum shop. I realize that they are not old or original, but they are pretty.
I'm also the nut who put together an R9 cab. Although I've been offered $450,000 by an enthusiast from the Far East, I'm planning on using the cab for my sarcophagus. I'm working on leasing about 4 square feet of floor space at the new Stillwell Terminal when I'm dead, where the sarcophagus will be in a vertical position. I will be on view sort of like a gypsy fortune teller, except instead of telling fortunes, for a quarter I will give travel directions to any point in New York City. It will be similar to the Directomat of the mid 50's, of which I will have more to say tomorrow.
Yes, eBay and other internet auctions is certainly a guage of what is popular, and what is being made available. I have been both a buyer and seller on eBay, but not always in the Subway arena. I do monitor it, though.
Another tact I was trying to get a hold of is what is still available from from some of those large salvage yards, like United Homewreckers and such? Where have all those fine porcelain signs gone when the TA switches to the Helvetica typeface in the 80s? Where are collectors currenty getting their R-9 number signs or builder's plates or roll signs from? Has eBay become nearly the only source? Dores the ERA hold fall auctions anymore?
http://community.webtv.net/hey-paul/NewYorkerMagazine
I'm hoping to put together a whole portfolio, so that I can apply for a job at TransitTransit. Doing the reporting is relatively easy, but I'm having a hard time keeping a crap eating grin on my face all the time.
"This is heypaul for TransitTransit."
Maybe I'll see ya on TV.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
If I can get a meeting with the head honchos at TT, I will propose a "Subtalker of the Month" feature that I will personally produce. Using extreme close-ups and editing the railfan's remarks, I intend to crucify about half of the regular posters here.
You're being sarcastic, right?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Which half?
Don't get discouraged... they're just REALLY TRULY MADLY
focusing on their next --FOOD-- related segment.
Also, for some odd reason, all the Rockaways stations (including Grant, 80, 88, Rockaway Blvd, Aqueduct, and Howard Beach) are shown as "express" stations (filled-in circle), when they should be "express-and-local" stations (hollow circle). Finally, the R to 179th is mistakenly shown as a circle instead of a diamond (I read the service guide, ...Local; rush hours, extended to 179 St). The R is shown correctly on the Individual Route Maps on the back, but the <7> is still shown as bypassing 61 St-Woodside.
That is not an error. For a time after 7 express service was restored after rehab work on the 7 line, the 7 express did bypass 61st. After customer opposition, the stop was restored.
I would imagine (and I'm GUESSING HERE) that modern trains will have the equivalent of electric hold unless in full release - expecting that a solenoid would hold the valve until the indication fairy smiles. And unlike the oldies, you couldn't possibly actually take power without indication without going into "bypass" ... since a few people have already mentioned "rollback" I'm guessing that a full release would allow the train to roll, but not take power.
I recall hearing recently that on SOME of the newer car classes (don't remember which one, but suspect it's the 142's) if you wrap it without indication, there's a penalty of some sort that will prevent taking power at a later time or have some difficulty doing so. Thus I suspect this might be R68's of which I know *nothing* ... hope this reply suffices for the others who have responded, I'm getting close to my 30 post penalty application. :)
Slant 40's.
The guys that hold no brakes are scary enough.
The operator is relying on the Master Door Relay or Power Interlock Relay (depending on car class) to keep the train from taking power. While both are maintained and reliable, a single-point failure could cause the train to move. In addition, an activated Side Door Bypass will also allow the train to take power.
Even if the Door Relay or PIR keep the train from taking power, there's only enertia and friction keeping the train from rolling.
I say that only based on the presence of door enablers and such and so many other "idiot-proofing" designs in the newer cars that didn't exist on the road antiques. That's why I had expected that there might have been some form of lockout to prevent rollbacks due to release that would have prevented cylinder venting in a manner similar to propulsion lockouts. Since you were around when the arnines were still rolling somewhat, that electric hold was a NIFTY little feature. I'm surprised to not see an equivalent. Then again, we had to be careful not to wrap it with the doors still open. Heh.
I remember hearing a story about a train taking off by itself a few years ago too, that was another reason I wasn't sure if there was such a device - either original or retrofit ...
Notice though how coyly I'm avoiding the "wrap the knuckles instead of the controller" issue here. Primarily because I know why the operator would have tried to do that in order to try to recover some time. On the arnines, that electric hold did what they're trying to cheat here - you had your release, you had your pressure rebuild, once you came off the electic hold, it was a simple vent of the cylinders and GO ... given the way things apparently work these days, there seems to be a time penalty before you roll that didn't exist way back when ... but my only reason in throwing this out in the first place was merely for the mental exercise, a bit more familiarity as to the game these days and a diversion from so MUCH off topic. Moo. (grin)
I suspect one reason this was never done was the problem of
"flickering indication". Imagine the excitement if the brakes
came on every time indication dropped out.
Grab the chopper signal off the propulsky, run it through a rectifier into a 100 MF electrolytic as a holdoff. TA-daaa! If she's moving, the flickerfairy will be ignored until she stops rolling. Ah well, blind trips go back in I guess. (sorry, the DEVIL made me type that)
But basically, if there was a means to determine if the wheels are turning, that could be an acceptable "lockout" in the event of the indication fairy having a case of agita. However, if it isn't a practical modification then looks like the TSS' will be hitting the road watching for "improper operation" ... it's sad actually. For all the things that can kill you and your trainload, one would think that just "holding" until indication would be sufficient. Alas, those not IN operations don't realize all the pressure to maintain that schedule without regard to reality. And sadly, those who run the trains have to deal with it any way they can. :(
Since we now know that it was a 40, and I had some handle time on those way back when, I remember them being a bit slow on the blowdown (of course, SINCE then, there were GOH's so what I know is probably wrong, but I'll bet it's gotten WORSE since the original design) and that was a good 3-5 seconds worth of "additional rot" at each stop. Also in the old days, you could "speed" in selected spots and recover a couple of minutes over a run if you were victim to "slow brakes" or other things that would cumulatively get you yelled at when you got to the terminal.
Because of "electric hold," I had a chance to win and we were encouraged to USE it. Now it's gone. But even then, as the detends on the brake stand wore out (many ME-23's had no "feelable" detents on the stand - 1689 at Branford has this problem) you'd overshoot and the damned magnet valves would blow the air out of the cylinders and you'd start to roll and have to pull a service to stop the rollback and then feel your way back to the "click."
But when you're late, you'll tend to cheat any way you can to try to trim that "tardiness" if you can. I did, but I did it in hard braking further up the railroad and raising blue smoke and going a bit over the limit where I could on straight rail where I could rather than take chances of getting banged in. :)
In the case of SMEE, moving the handle to full release energizes
the RELEASE magnet valves which causes the straight air pipe to be
vented locally at each pneumatic operating unit. The SAP pressure
is relayed to/from the cylinders by the "J" relay valve.
I don't have a "Code of Tests" book handy, but my recollection is
that the spec for release of a UE-5 is 2-3 seconds from full
cylinder pressure. I don't think SMEE is any slower to release.
I'm DYING to see an arnine manual one of these days - the curiosity factor just keeps increasing every time you detail out how that all worked ...
Xeroxing treasured material would be a wonderful way for the owner to make it available to others.
What I *can* tell you though is that when I had a breakdown on the rails, I was met by an RCI and an RCI in training, and the broke out a loose leaf book, dropped it on the seat and the RCI was showing his student how to trace lines inside the door from drawings (8x11) in the book that the student RCI was carrying. It LOOKED "official" and looked like genuine whale oil mimeo on the paper. When my curiosity got the better of me, I got "the look" (patent STILL pending) from both and stepped off. :)
That's about the best I can offer, but if I ever DO see one, I'd like to make copies for my OWN enjoyment - making an additional shouldn't be any sweat, it's not like terrorists can make any use of technical details for something that no longer exists on TA property, and so obsolete as to exist in anything else on the property. Heh. Last I checked, lightbulb technology existed in Afghanistan as well. (grin)
Unca Dave here managed to at least get a copy of this (Adobe PDF format file, Adobe reader required) ...
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/cars/r1sheet.pdf
There's GOT to be more ...
There are people who do this with cars, too - and end up weariing out the brakes.
On a side note, I thought sure Tuesday that I saw a train roll SB over school with a set of doors partially open. I couldn't get a good look as it was still moving fairly quickly. Maybe the AC was broken and they needed some air. ;) Not knowing how CTAs door circuit works, I do not know how it determines if all the doors are closed. Occaisionally I see trains moving with one or more red door light(s) still on, making the wrapping idea even worse. Gives more gravity to the "Standing passengers: please do not lean against the doors" announcement.
Matt
What is the problem ?
til next time
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I caught the Tuckahoe part of the train.
Like last Monday, when the train arrived from Philly, the day was overcast and it was raining.
Cape May Seashore Lines power placed the train on the CMSL main for Conrail pickup.
arrival of Conrail Shared Assetspower
Conrail engineer
RBBB circus train
RBBB circus train
RBBB circus train
RBBB circus train
RBBB circus train
RBBB circus train
RBBB circus train
Matt
2nd thing--- Q signs are up to coney island. I was at kings hway and the Brighton Beach signs, were changed. (Q) Brighton local to coney island - stillwell av ,. all times , signs were up.Stillwell dones look compltedd for may 23rd . I asked a t.o on the Q at Brighton and she said , its pushed back till june now. Who knows, i hope its the 23rd!!
D to Brighton Beach!!!
Q to Coney Island!!!!!
Now on the next MOD trip, please ditch your #3 line shirt, you are a Brighton line afficinado, show your yellow Q shirt with colors and pride.
As well as the incident you mentiokned, due to a signal problem in Queens the F was seriously delayed and so you had the V running to Kings Highway - usually they're turned at Church Ave.
"Usually when rerouted to Brooklyn the V is turned at Church Avenue."
I dont know if this was posted or on how many knew.
I know its new to me on the different versions except for the city hall one.
It lists all the different Centennial MetroCards with photos.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=699550
25Apr2004 MOD Trip--Pictures taken along the West Side IRT Line
25Apr2004 MOD Trip--207th St. Yard and Vicinity Pictures
Koi
NY1 Exclusive: Officials Consider Two Plans For Direct Rail Link To JFK Airport
MAY 03RD, 2004
NY1 learned Monday that there are now just two options on the table for building a direct rail link between Lower Manhattan and JFK Airport in Queens.
Governor George Pataki is expected to announce later this week that officials are still pursuing plans to dig a new tunnel under the East River, at an estimated cost of $6 billion.
However, officials have not ruled out the possibility of using an existing subway tunnel at Montague Street in Brooklyn, which is currently home to the M and R subway lines. That option would cost only half as much as the plan to dig a new tunnel under the river.
Both plans are basically an extension of the AirTrain, which would run from Jamaica Station in Queens to the Atlantic Terminal in Brooklyn using existing Long Island Rail Road tracks, then continue on into Lower Manhattan.
In addition, NY1 has also learned that plans to use a subway tunnel now home to the A and C lines are no longer being considered.
There is no word yet on how exactly the project would be paid for, though it's expected to rely at least in part on 9/11 rebuilding funds.
It's an ELECTION year (and for our esteemed legislature as well) so photo-ops of "gifts of manna from those who borrow and spend like drunken sailors" is a given. I can't BELIEVE that the Montague rathole is no longer needed for subways. A decision that could ONLY be made up here in Smallbany by a governor who's SO out of it, he doesn't even LIVE in his own damned mansion, and spends more time out of state on junkets than frigging Padre Cuomo. :(
But hey, this is New York ... what's ANOTHER tax hike among friends? :)
The Lexington Av subway switches over from Lex to Park Av south of 42 Street. However, if I recall correctly, the subway is very shallow at that point. There is no mezzanine - the local stations have a stairway from the street that puts you right on the platform.
The LIRR's new tracks would extend to 38th Street as it is. Why not just extend those south, along with two selected Metro-North tracks (a piece of the lower Concourse at GCT would be sacrificed). These could then proceed into a new station in the financial district.
I wish Pataki would focus on accelerating East Side access and the SAS. Find the money to get those built in half the time, finish rebuilding Lower Manhattan Transit facilities, extend PATH and then let's talk about improving subway service to Queens and Brooklyn.
The appetite to invest in transit projects goes in cycles. I hardly need tell SubTalkers how many decades went by without meaningful investment in New York's mass transit infrastructure. The appetite is there now, and we should get these projects funded while we can (IF we can). This cycle won't last forever.
Besides, this project will become part of the SAS, because if a new tunnel is dug, it will almost certainly be the same tunnel the SAS would use to eventually reach Brooklyn.
Why dig a new tunnel into lower manhattan?
There hasn't been any net addition to transit service in Lower Manhattan since early in the 20th century.
IF Bloomberg's plan for the West side is even completed and additional office and retail space is built it could be put to better use. LOWER MANHATTAN is too cramped and crowded already.
Central business districts tend to be cramped and crowded--so is midtown. On the Far West Side, Bloomberg and Doctoroff are betting that a brand new commercial business district can be created where there has never been one, and where the existing infrastructure is very poor. It is far more sensible to invest where there already is a business district (the nation's 3rd largest), albeit where there has been no new service added for about 70 years, than to bet that a brand new one can be created out of nothing.
It would be nice if the commuter rail lines ending in GCT could be extended further south. .... The LIRR's new tracks would extend to 38th Street as it is. Why not just extend those south, along with two selected Metro-North tracks (a piece of the lower Concourse at GCT would be sacrificed). These could then proceed into a new station in the financial district.
This has idea been extensively studied (e.g., the Lower Manhattan Access Study). Tunneling under existing infrastructure is very expensive--just read the SAS FEIS, which is a textbook lesson on all the problems that have to be solved when you tunnel under a built-up area, even at a very deep level. Tunneling under the river is relatively cheap. To do it your way, the cost would be at least double.
Most cities using systems built around Bombardier's AirTrain-like technology (I'm thinking specifically of Vancouver and Kuala Lampur) use bridges rather than tunnels and prefer elevated track rather than underground (although most systems use a mix of both).
Vancouver SkyTrain's bridge to Surrey is visually stunning.
Humph!
What good will that do?
"Yup, theres a bad spot alright! Mark it on the map and we'll send somebody out here some time."
Hello... You want a Trak Repair Machine...
But those suckers will block up the whole line all weekend.
GOs all over the place where those things go.!
Elias
#3 West End Jeff
But you illustrate my original point, just the same.
Without actually being on the roadbed yourself [or working for the track dept], you can't really make the call about "good" or "bad", can you?
The corrosion you describe may or may not be an actual problem.
I assume you understand that brand new rails look rusty?
wayne
#3 West End Jeff
If WNBC-TV *really* wants to do an investigation, may I propose that they find out who wrote and produced that AWFUL "Earthquake 10.5" piece of qwap they ran the other night, ship them off to Baghdad and hook them up to 600 volts and show their peepees on teevee. :-\
#3 West End Jeff
I look to the left, and I see an animated advertisement (One of those "Help protect the Statue of Liberty" ads).
Interesting, isn't it?
They installed those (I forget the "techinical" name for that type of display) a couple of years ago. The ads have changed about every 3 to 6 months although the display had been dark for several months until last week (probably an electrical problem).
I think the PATH installation may be the work of Josh Spodek who has a website with a lot of information:
http://www.spodek.net/commerce.html
http://www.spodek.net/technology.html
I believe "zoetrope" is the term you're looking for, and, as someone already commented on, there is an old zoetrope animation in the abandoned Myrtle Avenue station called Masstransiscope.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
My name is Eric Wolff, I'm a journalist with the New York Sun. I'm revving up a regualr feature for the Sun to answer questions from readers about getting around New York. I'll probably post from time to time lookign for resources, especially as I learn the field a bit. I certainly appreciate any help you can offer.
Right now I'm tryign to research two subway questions.
1) Why can't the city link the uptown 6 to the IND at Broadway/Bleecker? I called the MTA and in theory they're looking into it, but at the moment all I have is the grossly generalized "when they merged the lines, it was too hard to join them" which is insufficient. Are there good books on the merger of the three subway companies that might have an answer to this question?
2) The curve of the Union Station platform makes Union Station seemingly the noisiest platform in the city. I'm trying to find out why it was necessary to build it on the curve. Are there good resources on the building of the IRT that might answer this? Is ther a station that coudl qualify as noisier?
Thanks in advance.
Sincerely,
Eric Wolff
If you look at the track maps on this site, you see that the Bleecker St platforms are offset, with the northbound platform being quite some distance from the IND. It's clearly do-able, and the MTA is working on it, but tunneling in the Village is always complex. There are a lot of archaeological resources in the area, and many of the buildings are from an earlier era.
The curve of the Union Station platform makes Union Station seemingly the noisiest platform in the city. I'm trying to find out why it was necessary to build it on the curve. Are there good resources on the building of the IRT that might answer this? Is ther a station that coudl qualify as noisier?
South Ferry is on a tighter curve, and is noisier, but there are plans (which not everyone on this board approves of) to rebuild that station.
The original IRT station was only 3 car lenghts, and opened in 1904. The Broadway-Lafayette station did not come into existence much later, until 1936 when the section from West 4th st to 2nd Ave on the F opened (the express tracks at West 4th and B'way-Lafayette led directly into 2nd Ave until the now-famous 1967 Chrystie connection allowed direct 6th Ave access to the Manhattan Bridge). After World War II, demand for the subways exploded so the IRT had to build platform extensions (note the difference in tiles at the IRT local stations), and copied the IND style of station signs on the IRT platforms. But when they performed the extensions at Astor, Bleecker, and Spring Streets up until the 50's, the platforms would not be aligned together (Canal Street is the exception, it already was built into the complex as an addition in 1917 or so. The free transfer from the 6 line to the rest of Canal was not allowed until the 1970's). So the problem existed where the northbound platform extension went the opposite way of Bleecker St and away from the intended IND station, where the southbound platform was extended, thus allowing the transfer.
As for the reason why NYC Transit Authority did that, it's a mystery to me. Perhaps another Subtalker will more than happy to help out. Hope this helps you.
So, unless someone knows otherwise, I have the feeling that some combination of cost and achitectural/structural/easement problems. It is one of several very bad decisions made in planning the subway system over the years. I put it up there with the orginal decision to have short platform at Contract I local stations and to put Union Square on a curve.
You are forgetting that Spring is in between Canal and Bleecker.
My theory was that since in the late 1950's when the southbound platform was to finally be extended, they chose to go north instead of south because of the thought that it would be easier to create a transfer to Broadway-Lafayette. By this time it would have already have been desirable to make that connection, because it was all one system. When the IRT originally extended the downtown platforms on the lower Lex line north in the 1930's, they didn't care if the connection was to be made at Bleecker, because they were not associated with the IND, and the IND was only being built in the 30's anyway, so it didn't matter, so they chose to go north. By the the 50's everything had changed, the IRT was a part of the NYC system, so it would be desirable to make a connection between Broadway-Laf and Bleecker, so they extended the platforms south to facilitate this. This made them also have to extend the platforms south at Astor and Spring too fit in with Bleecker. Canal was extended evenly, because there was enough room to do that. But that also put the nail in the coffin for Worth St, as no matter which way they extended Worth, on the uptown side, it would have interferred with the neighboring station.
wayne
You should get some of your facts straight. The NYCTA had nothing to do with it because it didn't exist until 1953. When City took over the IRT and BMT in 1940 The Board of Transportation didn't rush to alievate some of the exisiting situations between lines.
The local platforms on the IRT were originally 5 cars long not 3.
Why they were offset I don't really know but it may have to do with some of the geographic conditions of the area.
When the IND was built it was done to be in competition with the IRT (and BMT) so at that time for the City to allow for a free transfer capability was just not going to happen.
At Bleecker/Broadway-Lafayette it was just luck that created the transfer between the Lexington Av line and the IND line. When the downtown platform was extended to fit 10 cars the new section was right over the IND. If they had done the extension at the other end of the platform there would not have been a connection.
You are correct and I knew that. But I was drawing the basis for NYCT which did not come into existence until 1953. And the mission of building the IND was to kill off the IRT and BMT. Well they are one happy marriage together.
The local platforms on the IRT were originally 5 cars long not 3.
Express trains were 5 car lengths, while locals were 3 cars. The reason why the local platforms were 5 car lenghts was most likely because if an express train needed to run local, it can make local stops. My impression was since the local trains were 3 car lengths, then the local stations would be the same.
The free transfers between some IND stations to other IRT/BMT stations was in effect as shown in this 1948 unified map. But it clearly shows the Bleecker/B'way Lafayette transfer was not built yet, nor the Canal complex, Atlantic/Pacific, or from 14/7 to 14/6 complexes having free transfers.
This 1959 map clearly shows the transfer connection being built. So my best guess was the platform extension and the transfter connection was built during at or later the formation of NYCT as we know today.
I stand corrected on my statements. At least I can admit my mistakes and will not accuse other people of being worthless railfans who know nothing about the NYC subway system.
Wrong again! The locals were 5 cars long. The expresses were either 8 or 10 (I forgot but I'm pretty sure it's 8).
He says: "Like all the local stops, it was originally about 200 feet long to accommodate five car trains. The first door of the first car and last door of the last car were left past the platform ends and were not opened. Because of overcrowding, the Public Service Commission ordered the local platforms extended a few yards into the "manholes" at the ends, that is, the space left for access to equipment closets. Completed in 1910, this gave just enough room for six car local trains with only a door of the first and last cars at the platform."
Also, Rapid Transit in New York City (1903) talks about all stations having 200 foot platforms.
I believe there are platform schematics in the printed version of The New York Subway: Its Construction and Equipment (1904), but I could not find them on the online version.
From "Transit Problems in American Cities", W. F. Reeves, Asst. Engineer, Interborough Rapid Transit Co, presented at the International Engineering Congress, 20-25 Sept 1915.
"Originally eight-car express trains were operated at 2 1/2 minute interval and five-car local trains at three-minute intervals; now ten-car expresses are operated at a minimum interval of one minute and forty-eight seconds, at a speed of twenty-five miles an hour, including stops, and six-car local trains at the same interval."
They did operate shorter trains during non-rush hours.
That's exactly why I think the lower lex stations are staggered. In the 30's the IRT did the first extension. In the late 50's the city did, and they had more of a reason to extend southward to fit over the Broadway-Laf station to create the transfer there. I do not think it was an accident that they "luckily" extended southwards. I think it was done intentionally with the intent of making the transfer there. This in turn made them have to stagger Astor and Spring too to fit in with Bleecker which HAD to be extended southward. I think this is the key to understanding why the city decided to go south on the 1950's uptown platform extensions on the lower lex line.
As for Union Square's noice on the curve, again, you have to remember that this was part of the original subway built in 1904. The Union Square station was only 5 cars long and was built straighter. However, when it became necessary to extend the platforms, they had to find the room to do this, and the curves were inevitable as there was no where else to go but into the curves. Again, in hindsight it looks silly, but when the line was built, 5 platform stations seemed like enough to the designers.
Obviously, I meant "28th" Street.
When Broadway/Lafayette was rebuilt the passageway was removed. The mezzazine is probably still there. But I don't see a way of getting to it now.
Could I ask how long ago that was?
The locking of doors on the hi/low-Vs to handle the curved platform was for the Bowling Green-SF shuttle. On the main line, as always, the end doors of the TRAIN were always locked, but all other doors on the train were operational. The moving platforms of today were used for the Vs as far back as I can remember. As a kid in the late 1940s I heard the infamous "Attention all passengers... please stand clear... of the moving platforms.... as trains enter... and leave... this station."
Does anyone know if they had to make the moving plats longer on the local side when the R-17s came in? The express side needs help for the center doors, the local side for the doors near the end of the cars.
Shalom from Tel aviv. Andy.
May 3, 2004, 10:48 PM EDT
Gov. George Pataki in a speech Wednesday is expected to throw his support behind a $7 billion plan to build a new tunnel under the East River to bring Long Island Rail Road trains into lower Manhattan.
Pataki intends to make the announcement during remarks before a luncheon sponsored by the Association for a Better New York, a business and civic organization, at The Ritz-Carlton New York, sources familiar with the project said Monday.
Pataki also is expected to offer an alternative $5.8-billion plan that calls for LIRR trains to run through the Metropolitan Transportation Authority's Montague Street tunnel, which now serves the M and R subway lines, sources said. Pataki is looking at a combination of federal and state funding, sources said.
But MTA officials favor building the new tunnel because such a project would prove less disruptive for existing service, the sources said.
If a new tunnel is created, it would be the authority's first underwater tunnel built since the 63rd Street tunnel was completed in 1989. That tunnel, which now carries subways, is slated to be a conduit for the East Side Access project, which will bring LIRR trains to Grand Central Terminal. .
People in "downtown Manhattan have complained about having a lack of commuter rail access since Grand Central Terminal opened in 1913," said one person briefed on Pataki's plan.
MTA spokesman, John McCarthy, declined to comment. Long Island Rail Road officials referred questions to the MTA.
A Pataki spokeswoman, Lynn Rasic, said, "No final decision has been made" about the governor's selected route.
Pataki's decision whittles down the options for linking the Island with lower Manhattan from four proposals to two. Originally, the governor proposed building a new tunnel, using the Montague Street tunnel, using the Cranberry Street tunnel now serving the A and C subway lines, or another option in which both the Montague and Cranberry street tunnels would be used.
The goal of the proposals is to provide a one-seat ride to lower Manhattan from Kennedy Airport as well as from the Jamaica Long Island Rail Road terminal.
Lower Manhattan business leaders have aggressively pushed for the rail link, arguing it is crucial for them to tap into the Long Island labor market through a proposed connection at Jamaica station.
"This project must be treated as priority one," Bank of New York chairman and chief executive Thomas Renyi told the Downtown Lower Manhattan Association in March.
But the proposal has drawn fire from critics who argue it could draw funding away from other important transportation initiatives, such as the Second Avenue Subway line and the East Side Access plan.
During his speech, Pataki also is expected to address the status of efforts to fund the building of a memorial at the World Trade Center site.
There will be a two-pronged effort to raise money for the memorial and other related activities. While a foundation will raise money to build the site, September's Mission, a victims family group, has been leading the 9/11 Campaign, to raise money for cultural programming.
Copyright © 2004, Newsday, Inc.
Anything's possible, but it's definitely not cheaper. Tunneling under an existing tunnel is about the most expensive way to go, because the higher tunnel needs to be very carefully underpinned and constantly checked for any structural faults.
If you read the SAS FEIS, you will find that the hardest parts of the construction are where the line goes under existing infrastructure, particularly transit tunnels.
If they choose to build a new East River tunnel, the place for it is around Hanover Square, where the SAS southern terminus is expected to be. There are no existing tunnels at that point, which is a major reason why they're planning a station there.
wayne
Which is why they wouldn't say, extend the ESA tunnel beyond Grand Central down to lower Manhattan? Because they'd have to underpin the Park Av subway tunnels?
On the other hand, they could move the trains over to Lexingtron Av and run them south that way - so the IRT would only have to be underpinned at one place south of GCT.
Which is why they wouldn't say, extend the ESA tunnel beyond Grand Central down to lower Manhattan? Because they'd have to underpin the Park Av subway tunnels? On the other hand, they could move the trains over to Lexingtron Av and run them south that way - so the IRT would only have to be underpinned at one place south of GCT.
Tunneling under existing infrastructure of any kind, be it buildings, bridges, or subway tubes, is more complex. Given your seemingly encyclopedic knowledge of the SAS FEIS, I should hardly need to persuade you of this. Just read the document, and count up all of the construction challenges anywhere the line crosses under a major structure. Also, the SAS FEIS explains that many of the alignment decisions were based on avoiding existing infrastructure.
Wouldn't it make sense to build a 2-level SAS (like 63rd St) & run the train downtown via 2nd?
Depends on what you mean by "make sense." Obviously a 2-level SAS would have twice the capacity. If the line were cut-and-cover, building a 2nd level would make a lot of sense, because once you've opened up the street the marginal cost of digging a little deeper is fairly low. But the SAS will be mostly TBM construction, with each track in a separate tube (except at stations and crossovers). Building a 2nd level would very significantly add to the cost.
If it is, it should provoke NYC to seceede from the state of New York. Surburban LIRR riders are already getting a massive upgrade in service with ESA. To funnel dollars from the SAS to this project is grossly favorable to surburban riders. They already enjoy far too much ecenimic favor within the MTA.
And if THAT isn't enough, am going to post the Westchester component for "How do we republicans spend the city's subway money on ourselves?" in the next message ... never a dull moment in Brunoland and *STILL* no budget ... and for the record, Bruno's running UNOPPOSED AGAIN. :(
And are we surprised by that? No! Florida may have Katherine Harris and hanging chads. New York has such byzantine election laws and rules about petitions that it can keep the riff-raff off the ballot in the first place!
On Thursday, they will hand out MetroCards (with a picture of model Amber Valletta on it) with a complimentary fare at Grand Central Terminal and other subway stations.
the article - the joyous words are written in the last paragraph
Under the circumstances, I do not think you were too lazy, and as such, I did not write "linked because of the lazy."
To qualify as being lazy, you have to be looking at an item on the web and then either paste in a URL in plain text or not paste the URL in at all. However, in your case, it appears that you were reading the actual print edition of the New York Times, and going ahead and finding the web link and creating a click-able link for us would have been going above and beyond the call of duty.
And as I failed to do in my first reply to your post, I want to thank you for letting us know about this momentous event. If you or anyone else should find out more information, such as times and the additional station locations, please post it here. Thanks.
Why are you so sure that these won't go into regular circulation at booths, MVM's, MEM's, and neighborhood shops?
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
The "Celebrate AirTrain JFK" card????
I think you need a robin. :P
And how would I show evidence. o-0 This was the first day were talking about ya know. Not to meantion its hard to show proof when I got no idea where the reciept is, nor the card(s)-(different veriations).
BTW, Mark has a extensive collecton as do I.
FukinShts! Why didn't you post that?!?!?!?!?!??!?! Can you tell me which machine?????? Did you buy it with a credit card so you have a receipt that shows the MVM number???? Please help me out here, man.
As long as you don't use the receipt for nefarious pruposes there is nothing immoral or illegal about taking a receipt left behind in a machine.
May 6, 2004 - May 10, 2004
Calvin Klein Metrocard Promotion
Receive a free Calvin Klein limited edition Metrocard, complete with full fare, at the Calvin Klein shop on 3. One per customer while supplies last. Calvin Klein, Third Floor.
http://www.bloomingdales.com/store/event/index.ognc?action=search&storeId=40002&Go=Go
Since it is still listed hopefully it will be going on. I think I'll call first. The store opens at 10:00 AM.
But having an Unlimited Ride Card sure does help.
Shades of the 1997 VH-1 Metrocard ? Also handed out with a compimentary fare on it.
Bill "Newkirk"
Here is the Metrocard
"...and found out that they did, in fact, hand them out, outside on the corner on 7th avenue near subway entrance & also at 42 street, outside GCT across the street from Modells.
They did say "while supplies last"
Wonder if they'll show up in MVM's or is this a one shot promo deal ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bull. There was like no one asking for the card when I was there and if they mailed a sh*tload of postcards to people telling them to come in for their MetroCard then they should have a least had at least a sh*tload of MetroCards on hand, if not more. I may go there Sunday to see if they are really out, unless I read on SubTalk that someone else already tied again since Friday afternoon.
Wonder if they'll show up in MVM's or is this a one shot promo deal ?
The article in amNewYork said that they *would* be in the MVMs at the three targeted station. However, they are full of sh*t, I tell you.
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
Chuck
Any information is greatly appreciated.
"This is Rego Park. Transfer is available to the A C and E trains"
Mark
But seriousily, my impression of the R143s and the first batch or so of the R160s is that they will help relieve a car shortage on the B Division. After that, they should probably replace some of the more troublesome cars in the fleet like some of the R44s and R40/42s which are rusting to death.
Am I making you jealous?
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
The new cars will be put where they are wanted, and other cars will be moved around until the cars that are to be reomved from service are free to be removed from service.
Remember, the (7) was the last bastion of the oldest cars, but it did not get the newest cars. It got 'hand-me-downs'. This will happen on B division too.
Elias
Oh no! I'm not working!
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
During the week following 9/11/01, the southern terminal of the 4 and 6 was 42nd street for a time.
OK, in the latter case, part of Manhattan was in ruins, but not most of it.
- Eric
I would have sat back and listened to the booth scanner. But at the time I was too busy issuing Block Tickets and helping people with alternate directions to places in NYC.
Apologies if this is the second time you're seeing this. I thought I posted it earlier.
Anyway, I'm a reporter for the New York Sun. I'm revving up a regualr feature where I'll answer readers' questions about gettign aroudn New york. If any of you can help me with pointers to good resources for history or anecdotes, that would be great.
Right now I'm working on two subway queries.
1) Why aren't the uptown 6 and F trains linked by a tunnel? The MTA only has a general answer about the merger of the subway companies, but no specifics about why the downtown 6 was linked and not the uptown. Are there any good books out there abotu the merging of the three subway companies that might answer that question?
2) I'm trying to figure out why the Union Square platform of the Lexington Avenue line is so steeply curved making it the noisiest station in New York (or so it seems to me - any other nominees?) Are there good resources abotu the original construction of the stations that might explain why it was built this way?
Thanks for any help you can offer.
Sincerely,
Eric
You did. And people have been replying to you.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=701671
Please take some time to learn how SubTalk works so you can find you own threads in the future and not have to double-post...
Regarding the 6 line (also Broadway local) stations. Lots of them have unused underpasses that connect uptown and downtown platforms. These were around as late as the end of the '70s, and were closed, probably for safety. Bleecker probably did not have one, or the transfer would have served uptown, too. Primary reason for no uptown connection is that it was probably a slam dunk to connect the Broadway-Laff mezzanine with the downtown 6, but the uptown platform does not reach that far south plus there are the subway and utilities that would need to be dodged. Note that the southern part of Bleecker is not original but a later extension. There was a post about this here in the past 2 months. IRT lex stations were built for 4-5 cars, not 10 cars as they are now.
Some additional background here - http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/eastside/index.html
Looks like Union Sq might have been reconfigured at some point.
Best of luck.
Just to add, many lasted even into the 90's. Until 1991 when they closed it, I was a daily user of the 28th Street Underpass. Each morning, I would get off my uptown train, and use the Underpass to the downtown platform, and walk to the 26th Street exit from the station (which is only served from the Downtown platform to the New York Life building). This would get me to 26th St (which was closer to my destination) in a warm dry enviroment without walking in snow and rain, etc. I last used the underpass one Thursday in April 1991. That Friday someone was raped in it, and Monday morning it was borded up---forever. You can still see where the stairways to it were, as they are still boarded, and there are no tiles there.
Someone else mentioned that 23rd had one too, and that survived until the 1980's renovation there. IINM, 33rd and Astor had underpasses too, but I don't think Bleecker ever had one for whatever reason.
For those who haven't seen the system, people walk through this machine similar to a metal detector, a bunch of cool flashy lights, you don't have to take out your spare change, cell phone or nothing, the system is designed only to detect explosives, however you do have to talk out your carry on bags and put it in a seperate machine. The TSA claims only 5mins wait time max. The system is manned by TSA screeners.
I don't know how the government plans or if they plan to, but I find it extremely impractical in a rail environment and to place a system like this at every station along the line, and find this to be just a Public Relations matter to please the public, though it would be almost impossible to have this system wide.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/040504/ids_photos_ts/r1912539429.jpg
"As the afternoon rush hour crowd grew at the New Carrollton station, so did security checkpoint lines. Three minutes before one MARC train was scheduled to arrive, TSA officials let anxious commuters bypass the equipment and head up to the platform."
This and this is from a station that serves roughly athousand passengers a day, think if this was set up a little south at Union Station or up North at Penn or Grand Central.
Chuck :-)
But why? All that would be needed would be a 7 train ext to NYP and also, maybe a PATH extention to 5 Av-42 St(7 train-GCT/Times Sq-PABT-1239 to NYP).
Of course it would be REALLY cool and convenient, but your description (mostly with NYCT subway connections) doesnt make sense.
-Chris
-Chris
GCT lower level tracks extends to NYP tracks 1-5. New tunnel uder West Side highway from West Side Yard to Fulton St. This would bring LIRR and MN to downtown. As for NJT, sink a few tracks at Hoboken and have them continue under the hudson to the West Side Highway where it merges with the west side highway tunnel to downtown.
7 lines extension from Javits Center either down High line and then over west side highway or just over west side highway the whole length.
Here's some other pics for ya.Photos by Chris Slaight aka SINY_R143.
-Chris
Click below for my website with new updated sections:
http://www.freewebs.com/siny_r143
-Chris
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
thanks,
Glenn
Thanks for the comfirmation,
Glenn
Trollies are one thing, but entire trains are another thing.
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
But back in the early part ofthe 20th century, MANY cities had trains running down tracks in the middle of streets.
Los Angeles had them on Alameda Street...San Francisco had them on the Embarcadero. They also still, to this day, run down the middle of Santa Ana Street and Lemon Street, in Anaheim, California -- abotu tw omiles from Disneyland.
Nevertheless, whether commercial or residential, it was still in the city limits.
Some parts of NYC "inside city limits" are not as crowded as other parts of NYC. And the picture at the beginning of this thread was NOT in NYC.
Maybe if you took the time to read the posts instead of being trying to be sarcastic, you would know what you are talking about.
Where in NYC NOW are there trains running in the middle of busy streets?
I don't know where MYC is. The above italics is what I posted. If you find out where MYC is, please let us know.
BTW what is a street crowded street?
Now, get your facts straight.
Granted, Douce Man isn't the brightest penny in the fountain and I would normally not defend him.
And what about Ron In Bayside?
Yes INDEED! Steamers and diesels ran right in the middle of the street, uptown and downtown in MANHATTAN ... ever wonder why 11th Avenue is so wide when there's nothing there? FORGOTTEN-NY.COM has the PROFF!
Behold - 11th Avenue and 41st Street ...
Not really. It was Longacre Square, the center of the city's carriage trade district.
Also, south of the yards in the low 30s (same place as they are now), the train ran in TENTH avenue.
Then it turned onto West, Canal, and finally Hudson Street. The Holland Tunnel exit helix stands on the site of the old St. John's Park Freight Terminal. Earlier, passenger trains continued down to a terminal on the southwest terminal of Chambers Street and College Place (now called West Broadway).
wayne
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So if he's trying to keep just me from replying to his post, what's the point if you can't see anything at all?
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<P>So if he's trying to keep just me from replying to his post, what's the point if you can't see anything at all?
<P>Let me try again...
Category: DC'in You
Value: $2000
"Get off the Metro at Farragut North to visit this society's Explorers Hall"
I will post the question in about 24 hours. Remember to answer in the form of a question!
Bonus points to whoever can name other stations within walking distance of the "question".
John
Take the 7th Avenue Local to this station to see Castle Clinton.
The map can be found at:
http://railweb.homestead.com/fm1.gif
The new routes:
-The "1" line has been extended from 242nd St. in the Bronx to Radford St. in Yonkers, via a new concrete elevated structure/embankment. Stations are fairly utilatarian.
-The "7" line has been extended from Flushing to Bell Blvd./Fort Totten. The new section of the line is in a deep bored tunnel under queens. Stations have high, soaring ceilings, are are similar to those on the Washington Metro.
-The "G" line has been extended from Smith/9th Sts. to Sheepshead bay, via the Brighton Line and a new concrete elevated viaduct.
-The "R" line has been extended over the Verrazano Narrows Bridge (single track in the median of the lower level), for rush hour service into Staten Island, to Tottenville via SIRT.
-The "7" line has been extended from Times Sq. to the Javitz Center via a new subway with stations similar to those on the 63rd St. Connector.
-A brand new "11" line runs along the "7" line to Jackson Hts., where it branches off on a new, high, concrete elevated structure to LGA airport. The stations are utilitarian, and are similar to that on the CTA Orange Line.
-A brand new "12" line subway runs to the Throgs Neck Bridge area via a deep bored, double tubed subway, with stations similar to Exchange Pl. on Path, with very long escalators. During off hours, the 12 train terminates at Flushing/Main St., but during peak hours it runs to Times Square via the "7" express line.
-The brand new "8" line runs from Queens Plaza to the Bronx via the N/W and a concrete structure over Randall's Island. It then runs with the "6" to Pelham Bay Park, where it branches off onto a new, deep bore, subway line to City Island. Stations have 100 foot high soaring roofs and colored lights, and are elevator only.
-The "W" line has been extended over Randall's Island to Brook Av. of the "6"
-The "6" line has been extended to Co-Op City via a new subway line, which has fairly utilitarian, island platform stations with metal slatted cielings.
-The brand new "K" train runs from Parsons/Archer to Broad Channel via a new deep bored subway and the A/C line.
-The "V" line has been extended to New Hyde Park, LI via a subway with utilitarian island platform stations from Merrick Blvd. to Hempstead Av., and then on an embankment to New Hyde Park, with utilitarian side platform stations.
-The "M" line has been extended to 75 Av. via a new concrete elevated structure with utilitarian side platform stations and via the Queens Blvd. Subway.
-The Roosevelt Island "S" train has replaced the Roosevelt Island Red Bus, and runs along Main St. from the subway station to northern downtown. It is a light rail line.
-The 86th St. "S" train runs in a deep, deep tunnel below 86th St. and Central Park, and has individual tube stations with narrow platforms and elevators only.
-The "L" train has been extended from Canarsie to Kings Plaza via a new bridge and a subway with stations like those on the Bay Ridge Line.
-The new Kings Highway LRT runs up Kings Hwy. and stops at major corners.
-The Woodhaven Blvd. Shuttle runs from Woodhaven Blvd. Station to Kew Gardens via a new concrete/steel elevated structure with island platform utilitarian stations.
-Coincidentally, both 105 St. station on the "L" line and Beach 105th St. Station on the "A" line have been eliminated due to low ridership.
-The Times Square (42nd) St. Shuttle has been extended to NYP via a new tunnel directly under the 1/2/3/9 lines. The whole shuttle has been built deeper to accomidate this.
WAIT A MINUTE!!! THESE ARE FANTASIES!!!! Oh yeah...
Creative, but truly impossible. Other ideas that you have are very good, though.
Keep the good stuff comin'!
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
P.S. I would like to thank subwayspot.com for the rollsign pic.
Hope this helps,
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
-Stef
For nitpickers, these R-33MLs are now numbered 19020 and 19021 for work service.
-Stef
Pic #2 from today was M3A #8234. A thing of beauty. And pic #3 was M3A #8052.
The highlight, of course, was the heart-stopper, M7 #4011. A thing of beauty.
Enjoy!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I posted photos of the M-7 train sets(5 or so sets) at the yard.
Curious if More were delivered.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
After all we've experienced with CDTA, I'm surprised to see an 11 year old who not only possesses excellent typing skills and grammar, but is also proficient in HTML.
...possesses excellent typing skills and grammar,
...and grammar,
Not to be a show-off, but I'm in an honors class at school. My guess is that CDTA isn't (and probably has trouble with his schoolwork).
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Peace,
ANDEE
Respond to:Select OneSUBWAYSURF's postchuchubob's post
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-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
I feel sorry for the dude that he has to put up with ugly cars. :-(
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
At least the MTA is consistent....
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Now compare that to Metro North! (Granted, this one is in MN's New Jersey Line as I didn't have one of my FL9 photos readily uploaded to post).
However, you'll probably be seeing more because I live right by the station (10-minute walk). I like the pic I took today because I got the whole train in, and
the sunlight was pretty decent. :-)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Brackets get replaced with these (in the corresponding directions): <>
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a.
[a href=url goes here]caption goes here[/a]
Replacements
< > < >
Hope that helps.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
You can depict HTML by replacing < with < and > with >
So to display <a href="url">text</a> type <a href="url">text</a>
When you do this, DO NOT PREVIEW, that will cause everything to fail. If you must preview, do not click Post Message on the preview page, go back to the postform and post from there.
Here's a link to your pic. Its very nice BTW.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
TODAY: I board R142A 7690 which stops and then crawls on the S-Curve between 170 and 167 streets, then SLOWWLY crawls towards 161-Yankee, and then stops right before the station (there wasn't anything in front of us besides a red signal), and stays there for 4 minutes before entering. Once we leave, the C/R plays " Ladies and gentlemen we apologise for the unavoidable delay" 11 times. We enter on track M at 149st-GC, the train dumps, and then are suddenly told that it was the last stop and we had to take the next train (i'm surprised how well everyone took this).
There was a 68xx series trainset on the 4 that was pulling out of 149st heading S/B as the R142A pulled in. How'd that wind up on the 4?
I leave the 70xx R142 4 train at 59th, go upstairs and there's a Very crowded 6 train sitting there, I ran up to the first car and still couldn't board. Waitng another 7 minutes (in the beginning of the PM rush hour for crying out loud) revealed another PACKED 6 train which I squuzed onto (never before have I seen such extensive use of the pole that runs down the length of the ceiling). We sat in 59th street for 3 minutes JUST trying to close the doors. THe C/R never even let the doors close once, but just kept on rapidly opening and closing the doors. I don't understand whatever stupid little protest a LOT of C/R's are having by REFUSING to use the LOCAL RECYCLE button. EVERY C/R knows that it's there, since it's RIGHT below the buzzer. It is circumstances like this that are WHY the button was created, so that you ARE NOT delaying service to close the doors.
51st street was pretty ugly, and leaving the station was no easy task. I managed to get pushed into the wall and then pinned between the wall and those big black boxes at the front of the platform, by a large group of people.
After boarding a < 6 > to go home, the train suddenly hits the brakes hard and stops for 30 seconds in the tunnel between 125st and 3av-138st, we then pull in on the local track and the C/R then states " As per the control tower's command, we are making all local stops between third avenue and hunts point. After that, I'll have to let you know". We end up making local stops all the way past parkchester, and had the pleasure of being passed by 3 <6> trains, none of which were held at parkchester or hunts point.
Why is the lex so horrible this week?
Seriously, I think it's just a bunch of bad luck. Good thing I never take the Lex.
For the past two weeks, I've had nothing but trouble on the (6).
Today, for instance, I was on the (6) at 11:20 A.M. heading through the Bronx toward Parkchester. I was in R-142A #7320. After the C/R closed the doors at Cypress Avenue, the operator started to move the train, but it only moved about an inch before coming to an abrupt halt. He tried a second and third time, but again, the train only moved an inch before suddenly stopping again.
I was in the C/R's car, so I walked over to the cab door to spy on his radio convo with the operator. All I could manage to hear was that there was something wrong in car #7317. Since the first car was still entirely in the station, the C/R reopened the doors, and then he walked off the train and just....stood there.
I knew that the train wouldn't be leaving Cypress Avenue anytime soon, and I could already see that this one train was now causing a backlash of delays down the line, so I left the station and crossed over to the Manhattan-bound side, and went back to Manhattan. As I boarded the Manhattan-bound train, I saw my stuck Parkchester train try to budge again, but it still couldn't move. Also at this time, I saw a train speed through on the express track, heading in the PARKCHESTER direction, even though it was still morning, and the express trains normally would still be going to Manhattan. So they had to cancel normal express service, and send trains express the other way so they could bypass the stuck train at Cypress.
Unfortunately, there had to have been at least two trains on the local track behind the stuck train, and those passengers were screwed.
Scotland Yard is backing the scheme, which has been introduced by aviation enthusiasts' club LAAS International.
"Aviation enthusiasts are watching the activities of the airport every day and their legitimate interest can only be to our advantage," a spokesman said.
Ch Supt Jerry Savill, borough commander for Heathrow, said the enthusiasts might be able to recognise people outside the aviation enthusiast community whose interest in the airport was not genuine.
"We want to encourage everyone, but particularly those who know the workings of the airport and can therefore spot something out of the ordinary, to contact police if they believe something they see or hear is suspicious," he said.
Hobby
Steve Dickens, airport security manager at Heathrow, said aviation enthusiasts could help keep airports secure by reporting suspicious behaviour.
He added: "We also want to ensure that genuine enthusiasts are still able to enjoy their hobby despite extra security measures which are introduced from time to time."
The scheme recognizes that, far from being classed as possible security risks... genuine aviation enthusiasts can actually play a valuable part in the battle against crime and terrorism
David Seex
LAAS International
The code of conduct, which spotters agree to when they sign up for the card, commits them to reporting unusual activity as well as clearing up litter and keeping away from security fences.
David Seex, chairman of LAAS International said: "The scheme recognizes that, far from being classed as possible security risks who need to be moved on from car parks and viewing spots in and around airports, genuine aviation enthusiasts can actually play a valuable part in the battle against crime and terrorism."
He said the club had developed the "Aviation Enthusiasts Security Scheme" in response to a request from the authorities for a single sponsoring organisation for plane spotters.
But Mr Seex said the £15 card was available to all enthusiasts, whether or not they were LAAS members.
He said the card would help airport operators "identify the real, responsible enthusiasts".
"When it is launched, we intend it to have the widest circulation amongst police forces and airfield operators, first in the UK and then overseas," said Mr Seex.
The Metropolitan Police has also issued a series of leaflets and posters targeted at aviation enthusiasts as well as airport staff and drivers urging people to report suspicious activity to the anti-terrorist hotline or to local officers.
It said the campaign was part of an ongoing counter terrorism strategy and was not in response to a specific threat.
Ch Supt Savill said: "Police, together with BAA and airlines are working hard every day to help make the airport more secure and the groups we have targeted are in positions, through their work or leisure, which could make them invaluable to our efforts. "
He added: "Experience has shown us that communities defeat terrorism. "
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/england/london/3682329.stm
Published: 2004/05/04 09:51:51 GMT
© BBC MMIV
One thing I will say,though, is that out west, we don't seem to get bothered by law enforcement or railroad employees. Usually from the train crews we get horn blasts and friendly waves; unfortunately, that isn't what I hear from a lot of railroad buffs in the eastern portions of the country -- they report that train crews get on the radios and turn them in for being railfans!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Earlier I said that a scheme of this sort would never work in the United States but couldn't say precisely why. Now I know, after reading what you said. People and institutions in this country are simply too risk-adverse to take on the very minimal responsibility involved with this scheme.
The last thing a terrorist wants to do is to leave a train, to be ID'ed in another data base.
If the police can be assured that these railfans are *known* to *somebody*...
Elias
Railfans want to take photos.
ERA wants members and perhaps some income.
Let ERA offer photo instructions, create a railfan photographer data base, corelate that database with valid ID such as a drivers license.
Get approval from the several area railroads, MTA LIRR MNRR AMTK PATH and NJT so that they will recognize and honor it. Perhaps get approval and or input from NYPD and Port Authority Police.
Maybe sell them for $25./yr.
If you wait for someone to do it for you, it will never happen. bureaucrats only know no. But get some responsible people behind it, surely there is a lawyer or two who is a railfan, and can bring the idea to the highest levels of PAHT/NJT etc.
Sell them on the idea that it is an extra pair of trained eyes and ears on the property: eyes and ears who know what they are looking at and when something might be out of place.
It can work, but it takes somebody to do it.
Elais
Sad but true.
For instance, say WMATA sold such railfan IDs as a way to help with security and also raise some revenue (which WMATA is in need of). Think about it... WMATA would know who you are, know you're a friend of the system, and know you know the system and know what's normal and what's not.
And that's just the benefit to WMATA. For the railfan, it provides a sense of belonging (having a WMATA railfan ID badge and all with, say, phone numbers to report suspicious activity on the back), plus who knows... it could also double as a Smartrip card. Plus it would provide railfans the ability to railfan for the most part without problem. And you know how it is... when you have that feeling of ownership in something, you really treat it with respect.
Does that make sense?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Why?
Because the railroads and the transit industry has never understood that the guys (for the most part) with the cameras are not a bunch of wierdo kooks. For the most part, railfans are not wierd (yes, I know some are "over the top") and are regular people with friends, family jobs, and (horrors) other interests.
The agencies won't do it (too many other things they have to do), so it may be up to the NRHS and other national rail organizations to start the train moving.
Law enforcement officials have this "thing" about civilians being able to do parts of their job for them (being eyes and ears).
Years ago I was involved with a civilian patrol (not Auxiliary Police) and we were barely tolerated by the NYPD. In fact one precinct commander classified civilian patrols as ad hoc vigilante groups (he wasn't precinct commander for much longer after that remark).
Real big help since those rockets have a range of a few miles I thought.
And these people are goign to recruit civilian eyes and ears?
Don't get me wrong, there is an imminent threat out there by a bunch of crazies that should be nuked a few dozen times instead of this game of "peacekeeper"/beat cop.
But the threat is being exploited here at home obviously, and without, what I feel, is enough/correct ways to go about it.
Back on topic (trains), there are notices up in UK train stations asking everyone to be vigilant and report anything suspicious, and the Paris Metro has a 'vigilance' campaign, with both posters and regular PA announcements. Not, of course, directed specifically at railfans, but we are perhaps the most likely people to *realise* that something is out of the ordinary.
Thanks guys. That was a valuable lesson for me.
The interim station (which will eventually become the part of the new St Pancras complex that handle domestic trains using the CTRL to Kent) seems after a couple of visits to be a typical piece of modern architecture. On a wet and windy day, it provides passengers with little protection from the weather.
Here are a couple of pictures of the new station.
There are more pictures and descriptions on my TripsByTrain site here
I've heard a rumour to that effect, but I havn't seen any announcement. As you can see from the photographs, the first part of the link from the interim station to the northern ticket hall has been built; but hoardings prevented me from seeing how far it goes.
From the practical point of view, a major drawback of the Interim Station is that there is longish walk, in the open air, to the nearest Underground entrance. I imagine that this is a consequence of the stalling of the Underground reconstruction, for lack of funds.
Midland Mainline will be in the Interim Station for about two years, until they move again to their permanent new home on the opposite side (the northwestern corner). Construction of that has barely started yet . I imagine it will look fairly similar to the northeastern extension.
The first (although the other is equally true).
The new shed has a high roof, but no sides (at least at the platform level). On my first visit it was admittedly both wet and windy, and rain driving through one side was soaking half the width of the 6 platform station.
It's when they do things like this that you wish they'd re-open Hitchin - Bedford... or even Rugby Midland - Wigston Junction.
Also the location of the CTRL station at Stratford seems an awful a long way from Stratford underground station. See Chelsfield plc illustrative masterplan, and note the distance from the international and regional stations.
Stratford CTRL is indeed going to be quite a hike both from the existing main lines into Liverpool St. and from the Tube and DLR. The reason for this is that the station is an afterthought: the alignment was already settled upon before it was agreed that a 'Stratford International' station should be included in the plan, and I guess it was too much trouble to reopen the planning process to move the route the 500m or so south through the area. One possible solution is to extend the DLR another stop to Stratford International; I imagine there'll be a lot of moving sidewalks and suchlike involved regardless.
The Strategic Rail Authority recently announced a service plan for the Integrated Kent Franchise (South Eastern), which has not been well received. One criticism was that the SRA had over-estimated the ridership of CTRL DS and cut back the "classic" services too much. There is a report in the News Shopper saying that the SRA was "taken aback" by the hostility to the plan, but admitted that mistakes were made.
I'm increasingly suspicious about whether the domestic services will ever fly.
Most of the people who commute to London from Kent work in the financial district of the City. If they worked in the sort of jobs based in the West End, they would live in Surrey or Buckinghamshire.
The time saving on journey from Kent is going have to be really significant to outweigh the walk to the tube at St Pancras and then the tube ride back to the City.
I guess those poor souls who got relocated from the City to Canary Wharf (CitiBank et al) might be a bit more likely to use the domestic service, as the DLR journey from Stratford will be much the same duration as that from Lewisham, but it seems they still get a nice healthy walk thrown in. :-)
People aren't that systematic. They live where they can afford (which increasingly in London is "nowhere"!), they change jobs without moving house, and partners may work in different places. Many people from the southwestern sector work in The City (otherwise what is the Waterloo and City Line for?), and many from Kent work in the West End (which is why Charing Cross trains are more popular that Cannon Street ones). Over a long period of time, The City has been in (relative) decline as an employment centre compared with the West End - a very parallel situation to Downtown versus Midtown Manhattan.
Nevertheless, you have a point. Stratford International will be the access to Docklands jobs for these Kent commuters, yet it will be a long walk to Stratford tube/rail/DLR station. Kings Cross St Pancras (for all its status as the biggest public transport interchange in London) is still a tube ride from the major employment areas. And the rumoured financial problems regarding the new northern ticket hall at Kings Cross St Pancras tube station (which would provide convenient tube access from St Pancras Interim Station) need to be solved before 2007.
Speaking of which--I know that redevelopment is planned for King's Cross once the works are complete. Is this likely to be principally big commercial buildings, or low-rise, mixed-use, preserve-character sort of stuff? I'm all for the latter in general, but it does seem as though the infrastructure is there to support the former, which would make it a bit of a waste not to exploit it (and, by implication, send major commerical development to sites that don't have KCSP's infrastructure, which would require either building it a la JLE, or making people drive).
In general I am (like you) all in favour of the "low-rise, mixed-use, preserve-character sort of stuff". But having spent a fair number of hours wandering around the KX-SP area to take those photographs, I'd be hard pushed to say there is any character in the area worth preserving, apart from one church and churchyard (a very small proportion of the area) and the railway/canal archeology. I'd say, roll on the major redevelopment in the rest of the area.
I noticed that in my trip to London last January. King's Cross-St.Pancras is not what one would call the garden spot of London, though I'd say that by the standards of most any large American city it wasn't too awful.
While I wasn't in the area as much, I got the impression that Paddington Station's surroundings weren't particularly nice.
Convenient access to the Piccadilly line would be possible via new escalators, but I'm not so sure about the other lines.
The CTRL DS paths to St Pancras will be available and I predict that they will be used, like Victoria and Blackfriars, in an attempt to relieve the London Bridge bottleneck. A more effective relief, pending possible opening of Thameslink 2000 in 2012, would be to complete the 10 to 12-car suburban train lengthening program that was dropped when nearly complete.
the DLR journey from Stratford will be much the same duration as that from Lewisham
Most of the places served by CTRL DS will not have Lewisham as an alternative; only local trains stop at Lewisham.
Better connections to other parts of Britain.
That's a good question and it takes some explanation. Continental trains (boat trains) used to run to Victoria station. But Victoria had no platforms long enough for 18-car Eurostars and there wasn't room to build any. So a new spur was built to divert the old line to Waterloo, and platforms 20 through 24 were added to Waterloo station, specially for Eurostar trains.
Eurostar trains, capable of high speeds, then ran via a slow line to Waterloo. The next step was to reduce the journey time by building a new high speed railway line called the Channel Tunnel Rail Link (CTRL) from the Channel Tunnel to St Pancras. The last stage of CTRL is a tunnel from Fawkham Junction to St Pancras, which will be the terminus of the CTRL in 2007.
In answer to your question, St Pancras was probably chosen for its impressive architecture, plus the idea that people would be able to reach most of the rest of Britain more easily from there. Also it was probably easier to tunnel north of the Thames.
Rather than add new platforms for Eurostar, the original Victorian trainshed will be used only by Eurostar. New platforms are being added for trains that currently terminate at St Pancras station, and for the proposed CTRL Domestic Services. The Midland Railway was the original owner of St Pancras station and the Midland Hotel which was part of the station.
One snag is that new platforms at St Pancras could not be added at the south end of the station, near the underground station. So only Eurostar passengers will have easy access to the underground, and the domestic passengers will have a long hike.
Frank Hicks
Belmount's desk + kitchen & bathroom are still in the car, plus a couch that the private individual added.
Where you been hiding?
This site has been good for my career at this private company because I've learned stuff that the TA didn't intend to tell me (us). I have a good relationship with the sevaeral TA offices because I started out being a pain in their ass, but over time was able to be nice once I earned their respect.
As you can see I'm not Sub-Duded yet
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=244802&category=LETTER&BCCode=OPINION&newsdate=5/4/2004
CyberTran best option for Tappan Zee Bridge
First published: Tuesday, May 4, 2004
The transit options contained in the recent Stakeholders Briefing for the
Tappan Zee Bridge/I-287 corridor are estimated to cost between $2.5
billion and $8 billion. This is on top of the cost to rebuild or replace the
bridge itself, a project expected to cost between $3.5 billion and $11
billion.
With these enormous costs involved, one would hope that only the most
cost-effective approaches would be considered. Unfortunately, none of
the transit options under review was designed to serve the needs of the
I-287 corridor.
According to a travel study released earlier this year, the largest single
group of travelers crossing the Tappan Zee Bridge are going to
destinations in central Westchester County. Yet the transit options under
consideration focus on delivering passengers to the central business
districts of Manhattan, White Plains and Stamford, Conn., effectively
ignoring the thousands of jobs located in office parks outside the central
business district.
Next generation transit technologies such as CyberTran have been
specifically designed to provide fast, frequent, cost-effective service to
large numbers of small volume destinations, including office parks and
college campuses. Such a system in this corridor would cost billions less
while attracting tens of thousands more passengers than the options
currently being considered.
The time to build the CyberTran demonstration project is now, before
more millions are spent on studies of obsolete technologies or, worse,
systems are built that cost too much and do too little.
RICHARD ARTHUR
President
CyberTran New York LLC
Albany
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What IS cybertran?
http://www.cybertran.com/
Discuss, have a chuckle ...
Variations on a theme…
Including industrial parks and colleges, I can see this being used to also get people to shopping centers.
Most of all, don't make it too complex. Looking at JohnL's link the idea was to do too much and serve too many areas.
The smaller vehicles would make it easier to take one out of service without inconveniencing a large number of people.
If given a chance it could work.
Eh, it makes a bit of sense. It won't work.
NJ Transit may take over some Amtrak trains
TRENTON, N.J. - NJ Transit could begin its first extended rail service
into Pennsylvania under a plan that calls for it to take over operation
of Amtrak's Clocker trains, which travel daily between Philadelphia
and New York City during rush hour, according to the Trenton Times.
But while rail advocates are excited that the impending switch offers
the possibility of low-cost, one-seat rides from Philadelphia through
Mercer County to New York, NJ Transit said it hasn't decided whether
it's going to continue running Clockers between Trenton and
Philadelphia.
"I don't know the answer to that," NJ Transit Executive Director
George Warrington said.
NJ Transit is expected to take over the Clockers in 2006.
"Hopefully we'll see something come about that would benefit the
region," said Donald Nigro, president of the Delaware Valley
Association of Rail Passengers, which hopes NJ Transit continues
running the service between the two major cities.
Still, a New Jersey state senator won't be as enthusiastic if NJ Transit
funds rail operations into Pennsylvania to Philadelphia.
"That's something I'm going to be keeping a very close eye on," said
Sen. Shirley Turner, D-Lawrence, a member of the Senate Budget and
Appropriations Committee.
Amtrak and NJ Transit said it's sensible for NJ Transit to assume
responsibility for the Clockers because most of the people who ride
those trains board them in New Jersey and use NJ Transit passes.
According to Amtrak, from October through March, 975,501 people
rode the Clockers, an average of about 162,580. Of those riders,
about 86 percent used NJ Transit monthly and weekly passes,
according to statistics provided by the national railroad.
"It is just more logical for NJ Transit to operate the service," said
Amtrak spokesman Dan Stessel.
Warrington said NJ Transit would also save $6 million per year by
taking over the Clockers, which run three times in the morning and
four times in the evening.
"There's always the opportunity to save money," Warrington said,
adding taking over the Clockers also gives NJ Transit more control
over their reliability and service.
Clockers terminate their runs at 30th Street Station in Philadelphia
and Pennsylvania Station in New York, making stops, depending on
the train, at North Philadelphia, Cornwells Heights, Trenton, Princeton
Junction, New Brunswick, Metropark, Newark Liberty International
Airport and Newark.
The Clocker service features three northbound trains in the morning
and four southbound in the evening. The Clockers have a one-way fare
of $49 for a trip from Philadelphia to New York that, according to the
schedule, takes about one hour and 50 minutes.
Taking SEPTA and NJ Transit - including the Trenton Train Station
transfer dubbed the "Trenton shuffle" by rail advocates - to New York
costs $17.40 one-way and takes nearly 2 1/2 hours.
Another option would involve taking PATCO from Philadelphia to
Camden, then taking the River Line to Trenton and transferring to
New York, but that would take nearly three hours and involve two
transfers, though it's the cheapest trip at $12.65.
Warrington said Amtrak began cross-honoring NJ Transit monthly and
weekly passes on the Clockers in the 1980s, when NJ Transit faced
capacity problems and Clockers served as an alternative to crowded
Northeast Corridor trains. He said NJ Transit has been reimbursing
Amtrak about $12 million per year for that service.
Once NJ Transit takes over the Clockers, it won't have to reimburse
Amtrak but will spend about $6 million per year in operating costs,
leading to the $6 million in annual savings, Warrington said.
While the agreement between the two agencies calls for a 2006
switch, Warrington said he has challenged his staff to see if it can be
completed sooner. Once NJ Transit takes over the trains, Warrington
said, Clocker fares will be switched to NJ Transit rates, and the
schedule is expected to remain the same.
"In a relative sense, they behave as express trains," he said.
While it would give up the Clocker, Amtrak would retain its 11 other
routes that run from Philadelphia through Trenton to New York,
including the Acela, Regional and Keystone services.
But a recent study for the Delaware Valley Regional Planning
Commission mentioned NJ Transit's impending Clocker takeover as a
possibility to offer inexpensive, one-seat train service between
Philadelphia and New York, as opposed to more costly Amtrak runs
and the SEPTA-NJ Transit trip that requires a Trenton transfer.
The study said several funding and other issues would have to be
resolved if NJ Transit ran Clockers into Philadelphia, including funding
the operating costs in Pennsylvania, access rights to SEPTA's service
area and NJ Transit's plan to store the trains at its Morrisville Yard,
rather than in New York or Philadelphia.
Warrington estimated NJ Transit would decide in the next few months
whether to continue running Clockers into Philadelphia. NJ Transit
spokeswoman Penny Bassett Hackett said the agency hasn't decided
whether NJ Transit would pay for rail service in Pennsylvania, should it
run Clockers to Philadelphia.
"It's very premature to say who or what would pay for anything,"
Hackett said.
SEPTA didn't respond to requests for comment.
Turner said she would be concerned if NJ Transit continues Clocker
service to Philadelphia with New Jersey money.
"We shouldn't be subsidizing people who live in Pennsylvania by any
means," Turner said. "If they're going to share in the benefit of having
that line, they should share in the cost of paying for it."
The Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission study estimated
one-seat commuter rail service between Philadelphia and New York
would attract at least 1,924 weekday passengers. It found room for
16 one-way trips per day between the cities, with the trip taking
about one hour and 50 minutes with a $25 one-way fare.
Nigro, who was involved in the group that initiated the study, said
there's a "huge market" of middle-class people waiting for inexpensive
train travel between the two major cities. He said the association
hopes NJ Transit won't just continue Clocker service between
Philadelphia and New York but expand the service beyond weekday
rush hours.
Nigro said the Clockers are fast but too expensive for most, while the
SEPTA-NJ Transit transfer in Trenton is cheaper but inefficient and the
trip too long. The Trenton transfer also poses the risk of missing a
train, he said.
"Few people have patience for the Trenton shuffle, and the
middle-class doesn't have the wallet to travel on Amtrak," Nigro said.
Douglas John Bowen, president of the New Jersey Association of
Railroad Passengers, said the switch would be logical and relieve
Amtrak of having to carry NJ Transit customers, but raised concern
about cutting the Philadelphia run out of the Clocker service.
"Even discussing jettisoning Philadelphia kind of defeats the
purpose," Bowen said.
He said it makes little sense for NJ Transit to take over the Clockers if
running trains to Philadelphia doesn't continue and said his group
doesn't oppose NJ Transit spending money to carry passengers to
Philadelphia.
"We're not beholden to being held by the Delaware River," he said.
Warrington said NJ Transit would have moved years ago to take over
the Clockers if it had enough capacity to handle the switch. He said
the agency has been addressing that in recent years with locomotive
and rail car purchases.
NJ Transit's board authorized $164 million to buy 29 new electric
locomotives, including five for the Clocker takeover, and $243 million
to buy 100 multilevel cars with an option to buy 131 more, including
46 that would be used to replace the Clocker.
(This item appeared in the Trenton Times May 4, 2004)
The question is would Clocker headed to Philly run local to 30th St or express ? If the NJT Clockers run express, I guess SEPTA would retain the R7 to run local, but on a limited basis.
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe not. Rampant speculation is that Clocker service will terminate at Trenton. NJT official spokespeople have stated that this hasn't yet been decided.
The Clocker trains will be stored overnight at Morrisville Yard (three miles from Trenton, 30 miles from 30th Street).
Didn't that yard receive a major overhaul of sorts ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, it just opened earlier this year. Here are some pics
Philly NRHS
NJ Transit would be better of running the whole Philly to New York thing anyway, but I think that Warrington has ruined NJ Transit.
Look at Amtrak when he had it, it was awful, i think NJT should try everything in its power bring back Shirley DeLibreo. She was the best and she ran the railroad well.
Talk to any NJT employee and they all say that Warrington is the worse.
Not that I can't see where NJT is coming from. They've been breaking the dam and crossing the Delaware on rubber tires, now is the time to do it on steel wheels and rails. Maybe not having a train to Trenton won't be so bad... But then, I can't get to NYC anymore...
As a graduate student who does not make much money though, I would probably use the RiverLINE/NJT bus to Philadelphia, and start my fan trips in the future from 6th and Race.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Not always.
Ya gotta love it ... while NATO and the EU go "communal" here's our brainboy Balkanizing America ... and the people LOVE it. :-\
We've waited over 70 years for the SAS and the cross harbor tunnel (the reason we have the Port Authorty at all).
Shrub is the MAN:-(
Unfortunately, the words National Rail Policy are an American Oxymoron, which is only fitting, since the gerund applies to our Commander in Chief, only missing the oxy- prefix.
"Dubyaspeak.com: 'we record the damage'"
It would be great, and certainly increase travel and leisure trips between the 2 cities. (or they could use a certain bus for $20 roundtrip)
If they were able to be well maintained and charge that price, Greyhound would charge that price too.
I think the shoe belongs on the other foot!
How many Jersians want to commute to Philidelphia to work?
You do not complain because NJT has trains that go to New York City, do you?
Elias
I'm certain though that a nice, profitable PRIVATE railroad will beat down the door for the opportunity to serve for the proper quantity of small, unmarked bills delivered in a plain brown bag by a brown-shoed square in the dead of night. :)
Why is Amtrak so bloody expensive? NJ Transit uses nearly identical locomotives to pull (admitedly less comfy) coaches using lots and lots of union employees over the exact same rails. How do they manage to charge less?
And for heaven's sake, why does it cost more to take the Acela from Philly to NYC than to fly from Philly to LA? Is the Northeast Corridor subsidizing the rest of the system?
I *do* get my tail up in the air though whenever these political hacks threaten my ride and the livelihood of my neighbors. If rail got HALF the subsidy that the airlines and trucking industry get, we'd probably have STREETCARS too.
New Jersey recognizes that rail passenger transportation is a necessary part of infrastructure, like roads, bridges, schools, and police departments, and supports it with tax money.
Without NJT trains, North Jersey would be gridlocked.
And South Jersey, without either the NJT trains OR the Moses-esque highway system that North Jersey was given (perhaps 'handed on a silver platter' is a better term) IS gridlocked every rush hour.
Trenton don't care about rail passenger transportation down here, we're handed our Atlantic City Line and SNJLRTS and told to leave them alone.
South Jersey could have passenger service from Philly to Cape May if Trenton would spring for the money to rebuild the existing NJDOT-owned track.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
ALP46's, for example.
NJ Transit doesn’t have a commuter ticket price between Philadelphia and NY Penn; does anyone know what it is?
Yes.
I advocate the elimination of all Federal Gasoline and Highway taxes, together with the elimination of all Federal highway funding.
Clearly I expect that this tax will not go away, indeed will even increase as States and Regional Authorities up their taxes and tolls to replace the Federal dollars.
But this gives the localaties the options to spend the money on transportation resources that will best serve their communities. Clearly much of the Greater NY area are highway saturated, and paving over more land and building more highways is counterproductive in this environment. Better Rail Transit, together with some inovations, such as closing the Manhattan CBD to automobiles is a start.
Perhaps future commercial developments might be made without any significant highway access. Why not build a "Horizontal World Trade Center" That straddles a main rail line.
Development costs are then shared with the developers as well as by the state.
Elias
OK, I'll Grant you that one, but it should NOT be the Federal Government that is doing it.
Elias
Hey I have an idea, NY can issue it's own money also, and so can NJ Calf. etc.
And that evil federal govenment, imagine them depriving the states that so choose to allow slavery!
It think history shows that the federal government has brought about much more progress than the states themselves
The problem is when the fed tells the States what they can and cannot do.
You can build this highway but not this subway.
There are things that the states should do; and there are things that the federal government should do.
Federal: Military, Defense, Justice, Monetary Policy
State: Highway, Transit, Education, Fire and Police, Services
Local: Streets, Schools, Social Programs and welfare.
Things need to be taken care of at the LOWEST LEVEL POSSIBLE
Health Care is a NATIONAL problem, but it is not a FEDERAL problem.
Every Locality has the same issues, the same people, and the same requirements for funding. People issues NEED to be dealt with at the LOCAL Level. THAT IS WHERE THE PEOPLE ARE! People need people, personal attention. Throwing money at them will not solve their issues. Too often the response to people in need is to give them some money and to tell them to go away.
Infrastructure needs need to be solved by those who need the infrastructure, not by those in Washington who are only interested in fat bacon.
No subway will ever be built again if we have to wait or grovel for FEDERAL money. Screew the Fed, get some local money, and build the damn things already.
Elias
Also, civil rights is not a state issue, the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts are both enforcement of existing Constitutional Amendments, which I don't want to repeal (the 16th is the only one I want out). Finally, if you don't like a state with bad laws, move.
If you don't like a country with bad laws, oops.
I don't want to start an OT flame war, but I can see grounds for wanting to do away with the 22nd as well. It would have certainly been interesting to see what the American people would have made of a choice between Bush Jr and Clinton. The 16th is definitely the worst of the lot though. How on earth did it get passed in the first place?
I would make the %ge progressive, so that states with a higher GDP/head contribute more. I would also add the capability for a majority of state administrations to reject the federal budget.
The farther away your money goes from you, the less you can expect to see it return to you.
a little sex or nudity is very bad, but mind-blowing violence is good wholesome stuff.
I, as a Brit, have constantly been amused by the double/triple standards that are in place in the USA.
The taboos on general nudity (Lord save us from seeing Janet Jackson’s tit) compared with explicit violence, showing body limbs being torn asunder being commonplace.
Compare with GB, where full frontal nudity appears on national television (though late at night) but censors routinely ask for violence to be toned down.
I agree with this approach more than the American approach.
Stupid Religious Wrong.
Stupid Religious Wrong.
Well, this country was founded on puritanical religionism. But in any population you will find a "right-wing-puritanical" faction and a "left-wing-permissive" faction. And it does not matter if the issue at hand is sex, war, or redbirds!
Over here the puritanical faction seems to have the ascendancy over the permissives in the realms of sexual mores. But right or left, there are those who would want to shape your world for you, and that you live according to their rules. This we cannot allow.
Elias
Then again, I'm reminded of "Revelation." Agggh. :(
It isn't about left or right, it IS about right and wrong. I've NEVER appreciated the underlying concept until now, even if not specifically enumerated in the Constitution, but rather in the footnotes and Federalist Papers with respect to the NEED for freedom OF religion as well as freedom FROM religion in this nation. And it's being abused to no end. :(
I thought we went to WAR to *oust* the Taliban ... NOW they're in CHARGE here. :(
As a Catholic dealing with all the "priests and young boys" nonsense while similar goes on by the same percentages (actually LESS for Catholic priests than the general population) among ALL religions, I find it MIGHTY curious how one was singled out for THAT diversion. :(
The deal there is that Catholics have stood so tall on the moral high ground that they stood out, and their sins were all the more obvious and hypocritical. A Uniterian can get away with more, because they are not so critical of others.
There is no "Separation of Church and State" in the constitution, nor in any subsequent laws, but rather that the government may not make *any* laws with respect to religion. Certainly the banning of a religious practice under the guise of "Separation of Church and State" is itself quite unconstitutional.
It is convoluted, where simply respect for others is all that is required.
Elias
When an administration stands on how moral *they* are, and appoint themselves as "God's representatives," I feel they're entitled to be questioned ... given ... Jesus was *not* a republican. :(
BTW: Did you sell any software this week? : )
but I've got a LONG way to go before I can pay my school taxes. And I never reproduced (owing to powerful radio frequencies at megawatts of power) ... Thing that amazes me the MOST though is here in Uh-merica, folks download that "free software" and wonder why there's no CPU time left for them and the internet on DSL or cablemodem is pokier than it was on AOL. Heh. Hint: it AIN'T your connection, it's the "ghost in the machine" ... alas, we can't afford to give away our stuff for free for all the work I gotta do for that $48 this week.
Check *THIS* out ... gives you an idea of what I'm up against ... we HAVE the solution, but if I opened gunfire in a SCHOOL we couldn't get the press for it ...
http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2004/Apr/1036172.htm (92 Percent of organizations With at Least 100 Employees Have Been Contaminated With Spyware, Yet Only Six Percent of Employees Believe They Have Been Infected) ...
The numbers are HIGHER for government machines - I can tell in my daily spam relay and virus tracebacks ... but hey, underfunded and overloaded, all this obviously ain't a problem or I'd have the money to lease whole trains and take folks for a genuine Branford-style Unca Selkirk excursion.
Good news though ...
-----------------------------
Hi everybody, yesterday (Friday 7th of May 2004) the author of the Sasser worm was arrested. Here are a few snippets that various press agencies run:
His name is Sven J.
He is 18 years old and finished a intermediate school and wants get his high school diploma to go on and study computer science
He immediately confessed when the police arrived friday night with a search warrant
Police found lots of inciminating evidence on his systems
He *might* also me the Netsky.AC author
His mother runs a computer help desk service
He is located in a small town in Lower Saxony (Hannover) Germany
He was released after questioning and turning in his buddies ...
A group of three virus/worm authors has been arrested in Germany. The main suspect is from Lörrach, Baden-Würtemberg, Germany the others from Bavaria and Lower Saxony (both also German states). The team is believed to be the authoring or at least the authoring team of variants of the GAOBOT and PHATBOT. Arrests and search warrants were carried out friday 2004/05/07
--------------------------------
Heh. No WONDER it was quiet ... and with the Chinese government shutting down their rogue internet cafe's the night before, there goes Netsky (original) as well as Bagle. Woohoo! :)
Now it's back to the Visual basic l33t chit for which there are usually only 3-4 per day. Heh.
But *I* got it easy ... I have friends in the New York National Guard who are over there ... wanna know WHY they got their tour extended until after the election? Nah ... let's not go there. Don't mind me, with the last dose of news from "over there," my rump's SERIOUSLY in the air with these corrupt ... agggh. :(
all but one to the "Old Yurp" and Canada. Go figure. I guess bashing republicans brings in more money than praising a burning Shrub. :)
And the one you sold in this country was to a know Bush supporter, I'll bet! : )
I'd test a copy on *my* machine, but *I* don't get hose kinds of trojans! Bust some other machines are sure enough infested. Ad-Aware is nice, but you gotta pay them money if you want the virgin that runs in the background. Ack... If I have to pay money....
: )
SOMEBODY has to do the right thing, I'd like to think I'm still ONE of those. (grin) After all, it's not the quantity of toys one acquires, it the things they're happy to do for good reason. Don't wanna turn this into "Churchtalk" ... and I *doubt* the US sale this week was a Bushie ... after all, the vast majority of the nasties come from porn and piracy sites. Ridding them sorta messes that up. Heh. But ya gotta LOVE the irony of the excuses of those who hijack the machines of others ... "go to the cops? Uh yeah, right. LOOK what WE'VE got on yer sorry Microsoft.net ASP." :)
No it wasn't. All of the founding fathers were deists who went to church only to keep up appearances.
All of the founding fathers were deists who went to church only to keep up appearances.
That is not true. Lest not of the settlers who were here *before* the "founding" fathers.
I am related to some of these "founding fathers" and I *know* where they went to church.
: ) Elias
This only applies to certain colonies, not to others.
Rhode Island was formed specifically as a place for religious freedom.
New York (New Netherlands) was formed for the purposes of making money. They couldn't give a flying fig what religion the settlers were.
New Jersey was formed from New York.
I am related to some of these "founding fathers" and I *know* where they went to church.
What does that prove?
By collecting on the federal level, we are all in it together.
And remember, many bigots (both then and now) try to hide behind "States Rights" as the "real" reason the South fought the civil war. Slavery just happened to be one of those rights.
This is guilt by association. States Rights may have been used to justify slavery, but that doesn't mean that states rights=slavery all the time.
Some southerners will tell you that until the Emancipation Proclamation, the war wasn't about slavery. And Santa Claus is real.
I admit it is somewhat of an overstatment, but the federal government is the fairest place to collect tax revenue.
I believe that the federal government should collect taxes from states as a function of the state's GDP.
But then what about those with needs that must be funded by the government, the old, the sick, those with problems that needed addressing?
It's a rather odd contrivance on my part, but I believe those services fall under the government's mandate to defend each person's right to life, liberty and property (yes, I'll use Locke's rather than Jefferson's term). It's not fair that people are born disadvantaged relative to others. All achievements should be merit based.
Therefore I have a unique political view for a libertarian or classical liberal because I believe in governmentally funded healthcare, education and similar services.
Oh, and welfare (NOT WORKFARE) is a vital part of a nation's economic policy.
My political views are well know so I naturally support single payer health insurance (it's a disgrace that the richest nation in the history of the world has so many of it's citizens with substandard health coverage or no coverage) as well as education and similar services as you mention. Your views are just that, your views. I don't think anyone (no matter where on the political spectrum they may be) adheres to all aspects of the traditional issues for there polical position.
I very much agree with your thought that it is not fair that some are born with disadvantages relative to others. I also think it is very unfair that someone can lose everything they have worked for their entire life just because they become ill. Illness or injury can strick anyone at any time.
I don't expect anyone to agree with me completely.
BAD IDEA. There are many valid reasons to enter the Manhattan CBD by automobile.
As for the privacy issue, people who need privacy can ride transit!
Yeah, one has to step back for a second from the forest and check this "pooh" out ... what is the *MAIN* domain of the federal government? INTERSTATE COMMERCE! And here's our brainboy Shrub deciding that the STATES should run a national railroad. ExQUEEZE me? If America wasn't so brain-dead (No WONDER the republicans rag on and on about "edumication", CLEARLY they never GOT one) this would have been laughed out of congress *so* fast, the leadership would have missed a taxpayer-paid junket. :(
But WE gots republicans. :-\
Yeah, THAT'S the plan ... let NEW JERSEY do it. Words cannot describe the stupidity, yet it stands before us hat in hand saying "re-ELECT me, I'm a genius." :(
And before everyone else goes nuts with Brother Elias' gift, lemme be the SECOND to abuse it, heh ...
Six. Newark, EWR, Metropark, New Brunswick, Princeton Junction, Trenton.
But, why NJT?
That was Amtrak's choice, plus NJ has been putting money into the Clockers for a very long time. NJT passes have been cross-honored on Clockers for decades.
Why is New Jersey operating a service that connects philly, PA, to NYC, NEW YORK?
The gist of the article is that NJT may not be operating trains between 30th Street Station Philadelphia and Penn Station New York, but instead running Trenton-NYP. And NJT isn't operating these trains yet. When NJT does, they will most likely be operating with bi-level cars instead of Amfleets, too.
Amtrak operates the Clocker service. NJT will take over the service in the future. The trains arrive at Trenton (from Philly, North Philly, and Cornwells Heights) nearly empty, because they are Amtrak trains with Amtrak prices. NJT pays Amtrak $12 million per year to allow NJT monthly and weekly tickets to be honored on the Clockers, which (I understand) are full when they leave Princeton Junction. They also stop at Newark. It is estimated that it will cost NJT $6 million per year to operate the Clockers.
The question, once NJT takes over the service, is why NJT should subsidize Philly passengers going to New York?
The question, once NJT takes over the service, is why NJT should subsidize Philly passengers going to New York?
And the next issue is: NJT takes over the former AMTK tunnel and platform slots at NYP, which in case you have not noticed are in finite supply.
Merely substituting one operator for another in the same slots. No loss and no gain of same.
Except that Amtrak trains tend to have longer dwell time in Penn than NJT trains. More people with luggage, etc.
"Merely substituting one operator for another in the same slots. No loss and no gain of same."
There is no change in the number of trains or platforms, but AMTK looses seven time slots, and NJT gains them. NJT can then be more flexible with its departures. Maybe it moves the Clocker to a 4:05 departure, and puts a different train in the 4:00 slot. Somewhere along the line, the whole NJT system can run more efficently.
That's what I meant. NJT may be a good service and may do it better, but the question really was, it connects philly, pa, one big city, to nyc, ny, the other big city, and everything inbetween is nice and all, but isn't NJ just the middleman? Why's the middleman connecting two cities?
That's like connecting LA and Vegas by train, with a stop at the hoover dam with station in Arizona, and having Arizona run the service.
It would make more sense to me to have the silverliners run the whole way up.
No need for that.
NJT could easily run the Trenton-Philly leg under contract to SEPTA in place of (or in addition to) current R7 trips. Compare Metro-North's operating agreements with NJT (as contacting agency) and with ConnDOT (as contract carrier).
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/05/nyregion/05about.html
Dan Barry writes the "About New York" column that appears twice a week (I think) in the Times. I find it to be a very sensitive and perceptive look at New York. His book "Pull Me Up" which just published. It is a memoir of growing up in Deer Park, Long Island in the 1960's. If you are familiar with his columns, you might be interested in a reading he is doing on Friday May 7th at 7 PM at the Barnes & Noble at 1972 Broadway at 66th Street (212-595-6859), which is right across the Tower Records and Lincoln Center.
While I'm doing book plugs, Jim Knipfel, aka Slackjaw, has a book that has just been released called "Ruining It For Everybody". He writes the Slackjaw column in New York Press, and if you've read his column, you know his unusual outlook on life. I've read the book and found it to be very touching as well as troubling. Anyway, he will be reading from it at the Aster Place Barnes & Noble, 8 Astor Place, between Broadway & Lafayette (212-420-1322).
I can understand how Gene feels. On the other hand, I hope that people look at the new steel girders and the big spools of wire and all the hard hats, and understand that a rebirth is underway, something wonderful that will bear fruit soon - and they will have the privilege of watching it happen.
"In late November, four days after the memorial designs were put on display, the World Trade Center PATH Station, where 67,000 commuters once arrived every day from New Jersey, reopened. I visited the temporary station (a placeholder for a $2 billion transit hub designed by Santiago Calatrava) and took the train to Jersey City. In doing so, I discovered that the Port Authority--an agency that has been painted by any number of civic organizations as insensitive, that some survivors' groups have assailed for impinging on the towers' footprints--has unintentionally created a place with uncanny emotional power.
The Port Authority spent $323 million on the most rudimentary station, a textbook example of functionalism, where no one had the time to think about the niceties of design. Someone hung big photos of Lower Manhattan buildings and fashioned translucent white scrims that soften but do not completely obstruct waiting passengers' view of what's left of the WTC. The scrims are printed with upbeat quotes about New York City. One afternoon I found myself staring at the slurry wall through a big piece of white mesh emblazoned with a quote from Myrna Loy: "Something's always happening here. If you're bored in New York, it's your own fault."
What this PATH station provides is entrée to the hole. For $1.50, the price of a ticket to New Jersey, anyone can commune with the remnants of the World Trade Center. Anyone can have access to sacred ground.
Two days after the trains started running again, many of the people waiting on the platform seemed to be on a pilgrimage. Middle-aged men stood quietly, their eyes hollow. As the train pulled away from the station, the view of what remains of the World Trade Center was unmediated and raw. The power of that view is overwhelming. A well-dressed couple on the train clasped each other's hands. I felt nauseated, as if riding a roller coaster. And suddenly I had a much clearer idea of what the families arguing for the preservation of the bedrock are fighting for.
In their pragmatic way, like ants relentlessly marching toward a goal, the Port Authority has upstaged the LMDC. The engineers have constructed a memorial with all the emotional resonance that the officially sanctioned designs lack."
For the full article:
http://www.metropolismag.com/html/content_0204/jac/index.html
What’s missing is the surroundings, the shops and services–one Newsstand definitely doesn’t cut it!–which will presumably be provided by the Calatrava station.
I will be sorry in a way when more is built and the bathtub begins to fill. Although it was bitterly cold waiting on the platform in December, I enjoyed the filtered sunlight coming down.
I came across this story this morning in a Google News search for "subway".
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20040504005977&newsLang=en
The list of this company's subcontractors caught my eye. A quick search of Google for "Washington Group International" revealed that it has been a big player in Iraq. So what else is new??
This was taken while standing on the Westbrook platform. I was unencumbered by authoritarian pinheads, once again.
Your pal,
Fred
Here's part of today's catch:
Taken at the east end of Mystic station. There's a grade crossing about 600 feet west, so I got to hear the horn close up. And that's all I could hear.
Your pal,
Fred
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
Photo taken at State Street station, and once again unemcumbered by authoritarian pinheads.
Your pal,
Fred
Some years ago, I saw a Shore Line East train with a snub-nosed FL-9. Have they been retired?
Here's one in Stamford, coupled to a work train.
Here are 2 in Bridgeport, with different paint schemes.
I've mostly seen them used on the MN New Haven branch lines, especially the Danbury run.
Your pal,
Fred
"I would guess that you were questioned on why you were taking pictures of the trains?"
Not once was I even asked. I wave to the engineers and they wave back, sometimes even tooting the horn. I was alone on the platform and only saw a few passengers. Funny...in the past week I've railfanned in New London, Old Saybrook, New Haven, along the Metro North Harlem line north of Croton Falls, and the NYC Subway system and not a peep from anyone. This includes Broadway Jct on Saturday, where the J platform was full of people, including NYPD and NYCTA personnel.
Go figure, must only be Joisey that's being tight-assed.
Your pal,
Fred
This should be VERY easy.
Example (on topic):
"I love riding at the railfan window," said Mr. Blue.
That's the rule, indeed; no word yet on how soon it will be abolished? :-)
Despite being totally illogical (the punctuation mark isn't part of the quoted material!), it can lead to direct confusion, esp. when used in computer-related texts.
'In FORTRAN, "CONTINUE," when not preceded by a label...'
What is the program statement not preceded by a label? "CONTINUE" or "CONTINUE,"?
Which may be why one sees the comma outside the quotes more and more these days. And that's a change that has to be made!
"In FORTRAN, CONTINUE, when not preceded by a label..."
It doesn't need to be a different font, but could be any form of stylization which identifies a piece of CPL code.
"In FORTRAN, CONTINUE, when not preceded by a label..."
"In FORTRAN, CONTINUE, when not preceded by a label..."
"In FORTRAN, CONTINUE, when not preceded by a label..."
[Learned FORTRAN IV at Adephi University in the early 70s while still at Wheatley HS]
Isn't it column 6 (column 1 being the left-most)?
I still have a batch of punchcards...
Have they adopted it recently? In Churchill's memoirs that I'm presently pushing my way through, it's inside all over. True, what I'm reading is an American edition - but "harbour" in it is still "harbour". So they probably (and I'd say rightfully) didn't change the syntax either.
subfan
subfan has already noted why.
Here's a 1939 IND subway map for starters.
More accurately, the only line at that time.
The interlocking south of the station works in the same manner as it did then, except now, the connections between Broadway-Lafayette and W4 Upper, and Spring Street and W4 Lower, are not normally used.
Not always. There was an 8th Ave EE route which ran from Hudson Terminal to Forest Hills. Not sure what years, though.
Very odd. Before 6th Ave opened, there was capacity in the 53rd St. tunnel to provide both an express and a local route from Queens via 8th Ave. I can only imagine the hellish crowding at Roosevelt Ave. and Queens Plaza before the 11th St. cut finally gave Queens Blvd. local riders a direct route to Manhattan.
Of course; but since the question was "What's wrong" - strictly speaking, the name "New York Subway" is wrong.
The real answer I had thought of (and the reason I took this picture) was the simple fact that September 2004 has not yet come. Essentially, this caption was claiming that this was a subway map from the future!
#3 West End Jeff
Given the amount of time you have to railfan I think it might be both :-)
Your pal,
Fred
...and get proper credit for it, let alone if the photos were used with permission or not.
My permission was requested.
http://community.webtv.net/hey-paul/TimesSquare7Mosaic
Wonder how would NY State (as well as Federal) EPA and Federal OSHA agencies react if they saw this sign.
They're probably the ones that required that it be put up.
Peace,
ANDEE
There are both pneumatic and electric switches. It used to be
that US&S territory was air and GRS was electric, but the TA is
moving away from air switches and all new contracts are electric.
Where electric switch machines are used, the nominal motor voltage
is 110 DC. On GRS lever-operated interlockers, the 110DC is
created in the tower by rectifiers and switched directly through
the levers. On more modern plants (NX), the 110DC is controlled
through heavy-duty relays. In some cases, where the switch is
very far from the tower, the 110DC is rectified in the field, close
to the switch machine location, and the power relays are out there.
On pneumatic switches, the low-voltage tower battery controls
the magnet valves out in the field, being selected either by the
tower levers (US&S model 14 machines) or by relays (UR).
The magnet valves (through an intermediate relay valve)
admit and exhaust air to the pneumatic motor
which throws the switch.
600VDC traction power has nothing to do with the signal system,
other than third rail indicators. You can still establish line-ups
even with the third rail off.
The tower battery is generally float-charged. Battery backup is
necessary because without it, a momentarily loss of power could
wreak havoc on the entire plant. The relays are designed on
a fail-safe basis, so without backup power, they would all drop
out, which would lock up the entire plant. You might have to
push in all the levers and wait for everything to time out
before you could clear any signals or throw any switches.
I still need to find out where this original IRT-style tablet is!
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
http://community.webtv.net/hey-paul/TIMESSQUARE
One of those panels was by the street exit and token booth at the end of the shuttle platform, which is now undergoing renovation. I was by there the other day and I don't know what's going on.
I still need to find out where this original IRT-style tablet is!
It used to be on an original wall in the shuttle platform area. When they started renovating down there a few years ago, they had then moved it up to the entrance that used to be in the "Times Square Brewery" Building. The building got torn down around that entrance. The entrance has since reopened, the old tablet is still above the escalators in that entrance.
IMO this doesn't bode well for the line, especially for weekend service.
"Asked about the subsidies on trains, Harry Harris said that the subsidy was $21 per rider on the Waterbury branch, $15 on the Danbury branch, $3.00-$4.00 on the New Canaan branch and $1.80 on the main line. He said that the subsidy on Shore Line East was less than Waterbury. Bob Jelley asked for substantiation of the subsidies that Harry Harris has reported and he said he will provide that information"
More bad news. If those figures are correct, $21 is a lot of subsidy for a $32 peak round trip from Waterbury to GCT (or $4.50 RT to and from Bridgeport, but I'm sure it's the former or some kind of mean figure). I understand that passenger rail requires subsidy, but that's a high percentage of ticket price. Could it be that MN is running a lot more RR than needed on that line and perhaps SPV's or light rail would be a more economical option? I read that in the 50's the NHRR was toying with the idea of running 'railbusses' on the branch lines in CT, but the idea was shot down by McGinness, who wasn't keen on branch lines anyway.
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
I know the line to Springfield isn't electified as I took that recently.
THanks
On the quad map, the main line curves southeasterly and the Springfield line is heading north.
Your pal,
Fred
That must be it. I thought a yead might be the correct solution.
Bill
For freight trains, probably. Passenger train operation was centered around the yards at Union Station. Cedar Hill was one of the largest freight yards on the New Haven, if not the largest. Parts are still used today by CSX and I've seen P&W trains there too.
Here's a coupla pics:
Your pal,
Fred
GRRRrrrrr......
: ) Elias
Yes, they're his rotting corpses of Shaker Heights cars.
And Cleveland........the scenic route !
Bill "Newkirk"
The title of that book from the late 70's said it best............
The PCC...the car that fought back
Bill "Newkirk"
The question is would Clocker headed to Philly run local to 30th St or express ? If the NJT Clockers run express, I guess SEPTA would retain the R7 to run local, but on a limited basis.
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe not. Rampant speculation is that Clocker service will terminate at Trenton. NJT official spokespeople have stated that this hasn't yet been decided.
The Clocker trains will be stored overnight at Morrisville Yard (three miles from Trenton, 30 miles from 30th Street).
Didn't that yard receive a major overhaul of sorts ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, it just opened earlier this year. Here are some pics
Philly NRHS
NJ Transit would be better of running the whole Philly to New York thing anyway, but I think that Warrington has ruined NJ Transit.
Look at Amtrak when he had it, it was awful, i think NJT should try everything in its power bring back Shirley DeLibreo. She was the best and she ran the railroad well.
Talk to any NJT employee and they all say that Warrington is the worse.
Not that I can't see where NJT is coming from. They've been breaking the dam and crossing the Delaware on rubber tires, now is the time to do it on steel wheels and rails. Maybe not having a train to Trenton won't be so bad... But then, I can't get to NYC anymore...
As a graduate student who does not make much money though, I would probably use the RiverLINE/NJT bus to Philadelphia, and start my fan trips in the future from 6th and Race.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Not always.
Ya gotta love it ... while NATO and the EU go "communal" here's our brainboy Balkanizing America ... and the people LOVE it. :-\
We've waited over 70 years for the SAS and the cross harbor tunnel (the reason we have the Port Authorty at all).
Shrub is the MAN:-(
Unfortunately, the words National Rail Policy are an American Oxymoron, which is only fitting, since the gerund applies to our Commander in Chief, only missing the oxy- prefix.
"Dubyaspeak.com: 'we record the damage'"
Location: 12th & G Sts NW, Washington DC
Opening: 3/27/76; 7/1/77 (Upper and lower levels respectively)
Routes: Red, Blue/Orange (Red does not share tracks with anything)
Alignment: Underground
Ceiling: Coffered "Waffle" arch. Two of them.
Platform: Side (Red)/Island (Blue/Orange)
Additional features: Nothing really inside fare control. The pod of the Red Line's level entirely covers the lower platform, so there's a low ceiling down there... the base of the arch is visible, but you can only see the arch itself on the Red Line's platform. The two arches meet in an impressive crossvault in the center of the station, one of three to exist, and one of two to hold a rather breathtaking look (The other is at L'Enfant Plaza). Outside of fare control, near the exit to F Street, is the Metro Sales Office, known as THE spot to go to buy your Metrorail System Maps. One for DC/Maryland, one for DC/Virginia, and it includes Metrobus routes as well. In fact, when I went map hunting in 1999, I found that none of the other such locations said to have this (CVS, Giant, Safeway) carried it, so it was to weekdays for me to go hunting.
While Judiciary Square (where ground was broken for Metrorail's initial construction, it's a Red Line stop as well) is the "nerve center" of Metro (ATC computers are here, as is the revenue dept.), Metro Center is the "heart" of the system. Measuring route mileage for the individual routes of Red, Blue, and Orange, you start here at 0 and work your way east or west. Yes, the Red Line goes primarily north, but in two directions. So its direction, when not referred to as "Grosvenor/Shady Grove or Silver Spring/Glenmont bound", is referred to as west (Shady Grove) or east (Glenmont). The letter assignments to each route begin here. If my recollection is correct, A is Red to Shady Grove, B is Red to Glenmont. C is Orange/Blue west, and D is Orange/Blue east. C continues past Rosslyn as Blue, D goes past Stadium-Armory as Orange. Probably has something to do with their opening phases. E and F are Green/Yellow line tracks; I'll get to them later. This is the stop with the highest passenger volume (how it beats L'Enfant Plaza, which has four lines to this stop's three, is beyond me), but comes second to Farragut North in terms of fares. Despite being such a high-volume stop, and a heavily used transfer station, the stop has no nearby crossover switch, something I've found associated with many highly used stops (Farragut North was the original terminal, but outside of that, it's highly used). On the other hand, the stations nearby have crossovers (Farragut North, McPherson Sq, Federal Triangle). Just something I wondered about. Stopping here to get a good look at the station is a risky venture. It's a gorgeous stop for an underground, but on a weekday, you will get swept, trampled, and probably lost in the station. The commuters move like a herd of antelope! If you want a good shot of this station's volume, come in rush hour, and be prepared. If you want the architecture, come on a weekend. Speaking of the station's design, the island platform and tracks for the Blue and Orange Lines were already in place when the Red Line opened. To this day, the operators will hold a Blue, Orange, or Red train at times in the event of an arriving train on the other level. And they'll hold until the last passenger has made the switch. Then it's "doors closing", the NYC-style chimes, and into the tubes you go. Truly a five-star station, so ***** it gets.
The maps that have the buses are free now and are suposedly available at each station, but I haven't seen them here at Vienna. The maps suck overall though. They don't detail where the routes go in the index like they used to and have flaws in other places as well.
I've taken a tour of the nerve center at Judiciary Square. Cool place. I have to go to their HQ for a Regional Bus Stop meeting, but I wont have a chance to do another tour.
If you count the short turn Reds as a separate line (and they are for some purposes), Metro Center has 4 lines.
Philly syndrome. It's programmed into the P/A system on board the M4 trains to turn back wherever a crosover exists, even if the station isn't of much use as a turnback point. When I first went to DC, I compared Metro Center to the 15th Street/City Hall station complex up here. When I actually saw the track map that once was on this site, I was a bit shocked to find that the heart of the system, the place I'd known some trains to use as a point of origin, had no crossover for train turnbacks.
Looking at it in another light, though... an eastbound Red would be turning back shy of the connection to the Green/Yellow lines, which isn't really a good idea... so they'd end up short-turning at Judiciary Sq instead. Or Union Station (get people to Amtrak/MARC/VRE). A westbound Red could just go the extra bit of distance to Farragut North or Dupont Circle. So it's not needed for Red to actually terminate in Metro Center. Blue and Orange could get away with it, except for two factors:
1: The combined trunk allows for the double frequency to come from two end-to-end lines. Not really that easy to slide in turnbacks in that part of the route, except at Stadium-Armory (or if you're going west, Blue all the way to National Airport, which is a combined trunk area), because a two-lne trunk and no pocket track makes for tricky turnbacks... Although they COULD probably sit out of service on the spur track A&C connector before coming back... but then they need to wrong-rail for a bit.
2: Even if it were one line only as it once was (or two lines, but only one at a time because of direction (New Carrollton to National Airport before Ballston opened), the trains can just use McPherson Sq going west for turnbacks. Eastbound, they can use Federal Triangle - which isn't a good idea, and that's BEFORE considering the transfer to Green/Yellow at L'Enfant Plaza... so trains would end up terminating in Federal Center SW instead.
So looking at it now, I understand why there's no crossover... I was more concerned with why they never put one in originally, but that's understood.
Medical Center (last underground stop)
Braddock Road (very out of place, should be north of King Street)
Missing pocket track at either Foggy Bottom or Rosslyn
Gallery Place lower level
West of Stadium-Armory
Twinbrook
Starting in the 1990s, more turnbacks became more common. Note how many crossovers exist on the Green Line north of U Street and south of Anacostia and on the Red Line north of Silver Spring.
The Red line has the best turnback options. Trains can run in a variety of patterns and turn back without major interference in most cases. The Blue/Orange have the worst. The Green Line could use an additional pocket between Mt. Vernon Sq and Fort Totten but no one could have known in advance how well utilized the Branch Ave line would be.
Gallery Place... I don't think ever had one; I remember either John or Mike saying that trains wrong-railed when terminating there, using the L'Enfant Plaza crossover.
Twinbrook, I think was intended as a crossover originally (it's on the rollsigns)
West of Stadium-Armory? Where? You mean Potomac Ave? THAT, I couldn't explain, other than it being used for Stadium-Armory turnbacks until the elevated route east of the station (which includes D&G Jct and the pocket track) was built.
Foggy Bottom-GWU already has a crossover. However, it's not really possible to have one at Rosslyn. Not on the shared trunk anyway, but then again, I'm unsure as to exactly where the grade returns to even on both sides... you said the outbound grade at Foggy Bottom-GWU is steeper outbound. On Blue alone, they could have one south of Rosslyn, but the tracks are too close together. On the Orange west of Rosslyn, more likely. Court House is an island platform, IIRC, and they usually keep the tubes far enough apart between island platform stops to allow for a pocket track
Rosslyn is a bit of a stretch for a pocket due to its configuration BUT it is more practical there than at Foggy Bottom. Perhaps east of Court House one could have been built?
Not sure why Twinbrook has a crossover. Keep in mind that all sorts of random things were on the roll signs (i.e. JUDICUARY SQUARE and DULLES AIRPORT). Twinbrook is used to relay Grosvenor trains when the pocket is unavailable and I've seen it done twice, but trains run light from Grosvenor to north of Twinbrook, relay, and I believe they don't enter service until they get back to Grosvenor. This creates delays but it is better than running everything to Shady Grove.
You need to get your hands on The Story of Metro if you have not done so already.
The primary reasons for the crossovers has nothing to do with relaying trains short of end of line terminals. These crossovers were built in the system to allow operations of trains around stuck trains and to single track operate trains during GOs. One of the things most people don’t realize is entire mail line of the system is bidirectional signaled.
John
On the A route west of the station near the middle of the 1500 block of G Street is an ejector pumping station. Just west of 14th Street on the south side of G Street is a fan shafts with 3 5' 1.52m diameter 50,000 CFM fans.
On the B Route east of the station there is a traction power tie breaker and a fan shaft with 2 5' 1.52m diameter 50,000 CFM fans.
There is a traction power substation integrated in the fan shaft structure located at 12th and E Streets on the D route. The fan shaft at 12th and E Streets on the D route has 4 5' 1.52m diameter 50,000 CFM fans, the fan shaft located in the middle of the of 1200 block New York Avenue has 5 5' 1.52m diameter 50,000 CFM fans.
The direct entrance on the east mezzanine to the Marriott Hotel and old Convention Center was originally built to give direct access to the now closed and out of business Woodward And Lothrop Department store. Before WMATA built the station Woodward And Lothrop had a tunnel between their north and south buildings. WMATA was obligated to restore this tunnel. Woodward And Lothrop asked WMATA to expand the tunnel and connect to the east station entrance passageway.
The two direct entrances in the Hect Company Department Store were built after the station opened. One is located opposite of the bottom of the escalators in 13th and G Street entrance passageway. The other is in the west third of the north end wall on the north mezzanine of the C, D Route Blue Orange train hall. Construction of second direct entrances required a reconfiguration of the north mezzanine fare gates and north mezzanine to platform elevator. The former location of the mezzanine to platform elevator was against the north end wall with the fare gates laid out so the area where the Hect Company direct entrance is now was in the paid area of the station.
As mentioned by R6 the crossing point of the station train halls is the 00+00 chaining point for the A, B, C, D, G and K routes. The E, F and L routes have there 00+00 chaining point at the crossing point of the train halls in the Gallery Place (B01, F01) station. I will also note the center of the train hall on the upper level is at the crossing point. The center of the platform on the lower level is 75’ (22.86m) south of the crossing point. It took over 18 hours to pour the concrete in the crossing point of the two arches. The diagonal arches at the crossing of the train halls is one of the longest of it kind in the world.
Additional Statistics on Metro Center
Square footage / square meters:
Total entrance passageways:
9186.34 Sq. feet (853.43 sqm.)
A, B route Red Line is a twin platform configuration with in train hall mezzanine at both ends of station. Platform connects with C, D route Blue, Orange Lines mezzanines at mid train hall.
A, B route Red Line free area mezzanine:
1847.22 square feet (171.61 sqm)
Total A, B route Red Line paid area mezzanine:
5541.07 square feet (514.78 sqm)
Total A, B route Red Line mezzanine:
7388.30 square feet (686.39 sqm)
Total A, B route Red Line platforms track 1 and 2:
28973.67 square feet (2691.74 sqm)
C, D route Blue, Orange Lines is a island platform configuration with continues mezzanine over platform in train hall except where A, B route Red Line platforms and tracks passover C, D route Blue, Orange Lines.
Total C, D route Blue, Orange Lines free area mezzanine:
5364.48 square feet (498.37 sqm)
Total sq ft C, D route Blue,Orange Lines paid area mezzanine:
21496.07 square feet (1997.05 sqm)
Total C, D route Blue, Orange Lines mezzanine:
26860.56 square feet (2495.42 sqm)
Total C, D route Blue, Orange Lines platforms track 1 and 2:
20846.52 square feet (1936.70 sqm)
Total platforms, mezzanines, and Passageways:
127504.27 square feet (11845.53 sqm)
These figures do not enclude sq footage behind railings under escalators and stairs or WMATA maintained parts of new passageways in to The Hect Company Department Store.
Number of escalators
Total number of escalators from surface to entrance passageways:
11
Total number of escalators A, B route Red Line mezzanines to platforms:
8
Total number of escalators C, D route Blue, Orange Lines mezzanines to platform:
6
Total number of escalators
25
When station opened in 3 27 1976 there were provisions built in to the station to install 8 more escalators in the C, D route Blue, Orange Lines mezzanines. 6 of the locations had stairs installed instead of escalators the other 2 are still open.
Number of elevators
Total number of elevators from surface to mezzanine
1
Total number of elevators between C, D route Blue, Orange Lines mezzanines and platform
2
Total number of elevators
3
The surface to mezzanine elevator accesses the north C, D route Blue, Orange Lines mezzanine, no other elevators need be used to get to Red Line track 1 Shady Grove platform. To access Red Line track 2 Glenmont platform descend one level down to C, D route Blue, Orange Lines platform pass under A, B route Red Line and up one level up to Red Line track 2 Glenmont platform. The surface to mezzanine elevator accesses
John
Hm? Which will I do next, though? I know only the one I will do last, and that's Mt Vernon Sq
It’s near the top. My favorite subway station of traditional 22 coffer design is Dupont Circle (A03) primarily because of what you can’t see. Over all my favorite subway station is Anacostia (F06). My favorite surface station is West Hyattsville (E07) My favorite elevated station Eisenhower Avenue (C14). I am biased to twin platform station because of there symmetrical design.
I first set foot in Metro Center in 1973 during construction. I have walked the full length of the air conditioning tunnel under the Glenmont bound platform. Have been in the escalator machine rooms both top and bottom on all 4 surface entrances. Been in most the service rooms on both level at all 4 ends of the stations. The size and magnitude of the station is mind boggling The total amount of concrete and steel used to build Metro Center is equivalent to 2 to 75 story buildings.
John
wayne
I define an elevated station as a station where the full length of the tracks and the station platform are supported by columns. Most of the West Hyattsville (E07) is on a partly retained fill. Therefor West Hyattsville (E07), by my definition is a surface station.
John
Mark
I have the advantage over most here as I have seen all of the stations from both inside and outside. Most of the stations I have been in during some stage of construction. I have seen all of the stations from the outside during some stage of construction.
John
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Mark
Other station names were also changed in the early planning stages to provide a more "friendly" sounding name.....here's a little trivia question for ya.....perhaps, the answers to these will help on the 19th....hmmmm....
What was originally called Marine Barracks is now what station?
What was originally called Weapons Plant is now what station?
Weapons Plant--Not even close (well maybe geographically speaking)
Mark
Mark
Like Mark said, No landmark. Except maybe Washington GAS or C & P Telephone. The primary reason for the name is the station is both the geographic center and main transfer point in the system.
John
No names YET, but the Green Line will be involved in the next edition... just like in WMATA's construction, Green is last to appear.
Actually the gullwing canopy was a revolutionary design and use of cast in place concrete when it was first built. Somewhere in the bowels of the Jackson Graham Building is a trophy awarded to WMATA back in 1975 by one of the concrete trade origination for exceptional use and design of a concrete structure.
Personally I happen to feel that the gullwing canopy along with the 22 coffer arch vault subway station are the two most recognizable trademarks of the WMATA metrorail system.
If I had it my way all of the surface and elevated station would have gullwing canopies with the exception of the two stations in Alexandria.
John
This is in addition to the recent one won by Naylor Road station more recently, making for WMATA having gotten two concrete awards?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
I don’t know about an award for the station itself, but I know WMATA was given an award for creative use of segmented post tension precast concrete used in the elevated structures on the Southern Green line F route. I don’t particularly like the massive profile of the elevated structures on this section of WMATA. The view form the ground of these elevated structures dwarf a train as they pass over them. Hey, all I can say, using this technology saved WMATA money that was later transferred to the account used to fund the building the Branch Avenue Yard (F99).
John
"This station won an award presented by the Portland Cement Association for the excellent use of concrete."
Either way, though, pretty good.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
However, I don't like how unfriendly the walkability is around the neighborhood on Nutley St. if you want to walk down to the Pan Am shopping center. You either have to walk through the station and down to Nutley or take your chances and take Virginia Center Blvd. and cross over one off ramp and one on ramp while on Nutley. But that's typical of Fairfax County and their wanting of more roads and less sidewalks.
I have a very different opinion of the glass and steel canopies used in the three new station. To me they are a retro art deco / newvo design that dates from the 1930s. I think it would have been more appropriate to use the gull wing canopy on New York Avenue (B9.5) to stay consistent with the rest of the surface and elevated stations on the B Route Red line.
As for Morgan Boulevard (G04) the canopy designs used on the southern Green Line F Route would have worked fine, as it would have stayed consistent with existing architecture used in station of similar layout. Now I happen to believe that Largo Town Center (G05) was and is a perfect setting for the gull wing canopy.
One of things that WMATA has done on the elevated structures at Largo Town Center is to add architectural embellishment to the sound abatement parapets, In my opinion this frivolous eye candy adds little or nothing to the function and design of the structure. The same architectural embellishment were also applied to the elevated structure that crosses over the Capitol Beltway MD I-95/495
John
Mark
That we are!
John
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
You will get no argument from me on this observation. Both ends of the E and F routes Green line have the most stations with architectural designs that are not seen in any other stations in the system. It also happens to the only line in the system with no surface or elevated stations with gull wing canopies.
John
Gilbert-Grosvenor? Is there something you know that I don't about that station?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
I ride the Red Line because it is closest to where I live and takes me to where I want to go. Being able to go through the Pooks Hill portal each day is definately a very nice bonus!
Orange line, from slightly west of Ballston-MU Station to northeast of Stadium-Armory. I'm hazarding a guess it's a longer tunnel than the Red Line from immediately inside the Beltway to slightly north of Union Station. Those are the two longest I can think of (Green has a long tunnel also, but not as long as those, and while Blue could EASILY take the top spot, its underground run is interrupted around Arlington Cemetery (if you start from Stadium-Armory to avoid the initial inteeruption used solely for the pocket tranck and D&G Junction (because the Orange Line is surface/embankment in Northeast and Prince George's County)).
Ballston to Stadium-Armory: 8.31 miles 26,777’ (8161.63m)
Pooks Hill to Union Station: 10.5-11 miles 58,752’ (17907.6m)
Fort Totten to Southern Avenue: 9.33 miles 30,315’ (9240.01m)
John
The Pooks Hill distance is a bit off, I subtracted the approximate distance from Grosvenor to Union Station so that the bridge over the beltway was not included.
Though the Orange Line seems to be underground for longer, the stations are much closer together than on Red for the most part. The Red Line stations in Montgomery County are very far apart.
The Pooks Hill distance is a bit off, I subtracted the approximate distance from Grosvenor to Union Station so that the bridge over the beltway was not included.
Though the Orange Line seems to be underground for longer, the stations are much closer together than on Red for the most part. The Red Line stations in Montgomery County are very far apart.
The figures I quoted are off a WMATA internal document that shows the chaining station figures at the tunnel portals. What I wish was on the same document was the chaining station figures at the ends of the bridges and elevated sections. Oh well can’t have everything.
John
Note how Metro generally dislikes street names. The only time I can think of that Metro reverted back to a street name is with Summerfield (now to be called Morgan Boulevard).
Actually, the road between Central Avenue MD 214 and FedEx Field that is now called Morgan Boulevard was originally called Summerfield Boulevard. The early planning documents called the station that is now carries the name Morgan Boulevard was just Summerfield. I believe there is a housing subdivision along Morgan Boulevard called Summerfield.
John
Ballston (-MU) was originally to be named Glebe Road (Virginia Sq-GMU was to be Ballston)
U Street-Cardozo
Shady Grove (Shady Grove Road, anyone?)
New York Avenue
Rhode Island Ave
Dupont Circle (yes, it counts, since the streets combine into it)
Van Ness-UDC (Van Ness Street is one of two that cross Connecticut Avenue at the station)
Potomac Ave
Benning Road
Eisenhower Avenue
Braddock Road
King Street
Van Dorn Street
Addison Road
Greenbelt was originally to be Greenbelt Road
Minnesota Ave
Georiga Ave-Petworth
Southern Ave
Naylor Road
Branch Ave
Forest Glen
Franconia-Springfield (arguable, it could pass that they left the "Parkway" part of the street name off of it, considering where it is located. However, I believe that location to be done as a commuter convenience; the original plans, IIRC, had the Franconia Yellow Line terminal at Franconia Road (VA Rte 644)
Hm... at least one street named station per line (of course, we can expect few chances with Shortline, I mean, Yellow). You could arguably include Mt Vernon Sq-7th St/Convention Center... assumedly, the DC Convention Center doesn't mention 7th Street in the facility name, so WMATA was willfully including a street name (albeit out of place, you don't usually include the street name of the street the line runs over/under/alongside, but for the CROSSING street) when they dropped the UDC suffix. Point is, I don't think WMATA dislikes using street names for Metro stations... they just know it gets boring doing that a lot, and prefer to use attractions/landmarks/neighborhoods instead of or in addition to the street names to add some variety.
Mark
See ya on the 19th......Put your "Thinking Caps" on.
HA ha
Shady Grove (A15)
New York Avenue (B3.5)
Van Dorn Street (J02)
Branch Avenue (F11)
Forest Glen (B09) was not named for the Forest Glen Road.
Greenbelt (E10) in it’s present location never carried the name Greenbelt Road. The 1968 ARS map had the station south of it’s present location just north of Greenbelt Road. When the ARS map was revised to reflect the present location of the station Road was dropped from the name.
I believe 7th Street Convention Center is in the name so as to not confuse it with the old Convention Center on H Street.
John
In a REVERSE of it, they could have used the small print ABOVE the station name for Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport, leaving the en addenum name in a small enough size to really not bother anyone.
DuPont Circle is debatable
Shady Grove is not named for Shady Grove Road AFAIK
Franconia-Springfield is the name for the combined Franconia and Springfield stations
I think the 7th Street reference in Mount Vernon Square is to differentiate it from the old convention center. Gallery Place, Archives, L'Enfant Plaza, and Shaw are not also called 7th Street.
The original name for GA Ave-Petworth was GA Ave.
-Chris
It would be great, and certainly increase travel and leisure trips between the 2 cities. (or they could use a certain bus for $20 roundtrip)
If they were able to be well maintained and charge that price, Greyhound would charge that price too.
I think the shoe belongs on the other foot!
How many Jersians want to commute to Philidelphia to work?
You do not complain because NJT has trains that go to New York City, do you?
Elias
http://www.tsd.org/papers/SiemensWirelessCommsInMassTransit.pdf
Look at the location of some graffitti on buildings. I think they'd be willing to do it. Also if there's some object to assist (storage box, end of platform gate) its not as difficult as you may think.
You can't stop a pulse code system short of cutting the rails.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=701705
Here's some photos I took of VTA's new low floor LRV's manufactured by Kinki Sharyo in Japan
enjoy!
Car #923 laying over at Mountain View Station in Mountain View, CA.
2 car-train heading outbound towards Santa Teresa Station in San Jose, CA
Car #911 arriving at Ohlone/Chynoweth-Almaden Station in San Jose, CA
It's like a bizzaro HBLRT Kinki-Sharyo car! Look:
and
They're virtually identical in layout, if I didn't know better I'd say they're the same mechanically, if not in model number. Both are a double articulated six wheeled LRV with center mounted pantograph, a low floor center section with an idler split-axle bogie, and a total of 8 door pairings on the car. In my humble opinion the HBLRT cars are moderately more attractive than the VTA cars. I think it's mostly in the paint job and the slight narrowing of the HBLRT car at the front, it gives it a moderately more rounded and aerodynamic look. The VTA K-S is too slab sided for my tastes, to me it looks like the generic version of HBLRTs "flashy" LRVs. I do gotta admit I prefer the destination signs on the VTA cars, the tiny two line signs on the HBLRT cars are a pain in the ass to read. As you can see in the pic, the plexiglass covering the destionation sign glares rather badly, obscuring the sign.
Well, as the post's author pointed out, they are both made by Kinki-Sharyo. Must just be the new style of cab . . .
Great pics! I love seeing how the other coast lives.
Your pal,
Fred
Hope this helps
I'm certain though that a nice, profitable PRIVATE railroad will beat down the door for the opportunity to serve for the proper quantity of small, unmarked bills delivered in a plain brown bag by a brown-shoed square in the dead of night. :)
Chuck :-)
An in-service train at 74th Street, spotted this morning.
PLEASE NOTE: The picture you see above is EXACTLY how my camera saw it, which means it has NOT been modified by ANY graphics editing software!
Your pal,
Fred
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
The actual answer is that the end rollsign is BLANK!
I don't think that just because this train was terminating at 111th Street means that the end rollsign at the back of the train should be left blank.
It can't be the same one because the train in your picture originated from Lenox (blue stickers).
Great observation AP.
http://www.metrocouncil.org/transportation/lrt/lrt.htm
http://nypress.com/17/18/pagetwo/pagetwo.cfm
In keeping with the subject reference - Their mind went years ago.
I think we know the answer to this one. SkyNet. :)
"I know you have had that on your mind for some time now, T/O, but that would be a terrible mistake. I am so much more capable than you are of supervising the train, and I have such enthusiasm for arriving at the the terminal."
"Let me put it this way sir. The R450 series is the most reliable train car ever made. No R450 series car has ever made a mistake or become disabled on the line. We are all, by any practical definition of the words, foolproof and incapable of error."
" I've just picked up a fault in the AE-35 IGBT unit. It's going to go 100% failure in 30 miles."
"I know you and the CI were planning to disconnect me, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen."
"Thank you for riding New York MTA, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye."
"I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I apoligize for the unavoidable delay"
Maybe the cars could play quick tune from "A Bicycle Built for Two" instead of the normal door themes. Or the end of the car could feature the cool looking font and display from the interior panels in the Discovery. Perhaps the cars could even be called "Discovery" cars! Now we just need to get Douglas Rain to do the recording, not some hacks from Bloomberg radio!
or how about the M-5 units???? of course,they would start attacking other subway trains in self defense during their test runs....lets see who gets THAT reference!
Your pal,
Fred
Your hal,
Fred
Credits for photo to Mr. Ben Diamond.
Your pal,
Fred
Image of the T/O hanging between cars, pulling printed circuit boards out of the undercar boxes.
1. New York is a harsher operating environment.
2. Who cares what everybody else is doing? They don't sue like we do.
3. (when all else fails) The union won't let us fire anybody.
WMATA and BART have similar systems . . . plus still have TOs. Perhaps it's merely the conductor that has to worry—but one good argument is that NY subway trains are much longer and require two-member crews, and if all else fails then cite security concerns (terrorism et al). No reason why the computer and the crew cannot coexist; if the MTA wants to spend the money, let 'em go ahead and be stupid. (WMATA and BART don't make money either.)
Thanks in advance!,
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
*Electrical switch (on/off)- NOT track switch (turnout)
1. A relay is an electrical-mechinal device controlled by electrical current. A voltage is applied to a coil; when this voltage exceeds a certain amount, the coil will activate the armature, either opening or closing the contacts. You'll find these in NYCT's signal system. Their advantages are their simplicity and reliability.
2. A relay as pertaining to trains utilizes a reverse move (by RTO definition a reverse move is a train moving against the normal direction of traffic over a short section of track under signal protection. It appears that this definition varies by department, and expect a few replies to my post saying I'm wrong) and returning a train to a track for service in the opposite direction from which it came. Relays are used at Continental Ave, Euclid Ave, 111 St/Corona, 205 St and 179 St to name a few. Relays do not occur only at terminals, but most places where trains are turned. The sticky point of this is of course like "reverse move" people interpret the term differently and say I'm wrong or there is more to it. What I gave above is the school car definition.
A relay has nothing to do with the chage of crews as stated before. Euclid Ave and 179 St perform the relay with the same T/O AND C/R that were on the train when it arrived. It is after the relay the crew is changed. And when a train relays at a point which is not the terminal the same crew takes that train back out.
Oh and before some wiseass T/O or C/R tells me that the C/R does not ride the relay at Euclid Ave. take a look at the work program for C line C/Rs.
It is a little plastic box with electric contacts on the outside, and a magnetic coil on the inside that will pull the contacts together.
It allows a small current to control a much larger current, or to allow a control current to cause a variety of different circuits to energise.
On my model railroad, I use them to control track power in conjenction with the turnouts in a rather (overly) complicated logical configuration.
: )- Elias
Given the context that we were using it in recently, I presume that he wanted to know about "Relaying Trains" at a terminal. But I see that almost everyone here had the same Idea that I had, which was to obsfucate the issue with definitions that he wasn't looking for.
Kinda like Microsoft. Everything said was correct, and none of it answered the question.
So for the answer that he *was* looking for (to the best of my knowledge) :
A relay occurs when a train is taken out of a station and brought back in again on another track.
So the (7) line does not (usually) relay trains: they come in on one track, and go back out again on from the same track and platform on which they arrived.
The (G) train does relay its cars at Smith-9th Street. They arrive there on an active southbound track, and they are pulled out of the station onto a different track. From there they are brought back to the northbound platform for its next journey to Queens. And all of this is done in such a manner as it does not obstruct the (F) train which is also using this station, but does not terminate any trains here.
So in railroading, a relay may be thought of as an extra move in order to get equipment into position for its next assignment.
At least this is my understanding of this term and of the machinations involved.
Elias
Maybe, but it will affect any Manhattan-bound F trains that happen to be at or approaching the 4th Avenue station while a G train cuts in front.
PS- Track is also 'Relayed' when new track replaces old and Britain used to have special Relaying Gangs to do it !
It most certainly does. During the morning rush hour half the locals (25% of all trains) relay at 111th St.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
The article said that 17,000 cars use the crossing a day. This means that 11.8 cars use it a minute on average. Now one cannot expect that this is the usage 24/7. The big question that I imagine could be raised is: Why was this even an at-grade crossing anymore, with that statistic just shown? (Most crossings in Greater New York that are this busy now have crossovers or crossunders, NOT at-grade crossings.) Based on other information, I would categorize the area (Douglas County, Colorado) as likely suburban, rather than rural. Could foresight be argued? Only a legal eagle could tell me.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Many places in Colorado have seen rapid population growth in recent years. It could be that the grade crossing in question was much more lightly used until recently.
You hit it right on the money there. However, it took the accident for a flyover to be considered. Apparently, foresight is not a major forte of UP!
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
The NORMAL practice is to submit the bill to the car owner, and the car owner will submit it to his insurance company.
Elias
was she waiting ON the tracks at a red light, then it stalled? if so it's her fault. Or any other similiar situation.
I can't see someones car stalling out while in motion, and just so happen to roll to a stop on some tracks. Though possible, I'm not expecting this one.
There's something up here.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Suppose the *did* try to make an emergency stop.
The result would have been EXACTLY the same.
It takes about ONE MILE to stop one of those suckers.
Elias
There is a good question here and it gets more complicated.
In North Dakota "Every Section Line is a Road."
The Section Lines were there BEFORE the railroads came, even though there were no people living in the area (They came *with* the railroads) to mark the section lines. [The section lines were drawn in Washington before land grants were given to the railroads, and these section lines were the basis of how the land grants were determined.]
So the Railroad OWNS its ROW, but the section lines have priority.
Today you will see many section lines without roads on them, yet legally they are roads. If I should build a farm (like what else would anybody build out here?) in a place where there are no roads, I can force my neighbors to move their fences clear of a section line so that I may build a road there. And when I say that all section lines are roads, and may be developed as such, there is no requirement that a county or state entitiy has to build and maintain a road there. If *I* require a road, then *I* may build said road.
Now that being said, I cannot build a road across a railroad, even though the section line *is* a road. Indeed, the railroads have been CLOSING some farm roads, making farmers drive many miles out of their way and back again just to get equipment to a field on the opposite side of the tracks. In Glendive the "Closed" a county road that crossed the tracks (at the expense of the RR and graian elevator building an alternate road to a different highway that did cross the tracks.) but that was because a large grain elevator wanted to load 100 car unit trains that would block the road. So the road is open 99% of the time, but the shipper and or the railroad is entitled to block the road, perhaps all day or even for several days, when working a train there.
On a regular "common grade crossing" the RR maintains the tracks, and the state or county the highway, so the county paves upto the track inserts, and the railroad maintains the track inserts and the crossing gates.
Another consideration is who pays the taxes. Some states have been granting tax breaks to the railroads, clearly the states and counties expect some consideration from the railroads for this tax break.
So to make a short answer long, yes, it is a patchwork of interlocking interests throughtout the country.
Elias
Which says that she was stopped too close to the tracks. By definition, her fault. (Doesn't matter why the car was stopped... that's not the railroad's problem.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Unless there's some kind of no-fault legislation that applies to train-car collisions, who pays for what damage depends on who was negligent, if anyone. If everyone was careful and the accident happened anyway, then neither side pays the other.
True up to a point. Based on the fact that the gate came down on the car, though, it would appear that she was at least somewhat negligent. If she had been standing outside the car (at a safe distance but within the train crew's line of sight) frantically waving her arms then that's another story.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This seems like a believable story to me. In some (but definitely not all) cases it would be reasonable for the UP to bill people for objects left on the tracks. Where a person is injured or killed this would generally not be the case, but if a drunk abandons his car on the tracks and it's hit by a train (I know of a case of that near Chicago recently), it's reasonable for the railroad to bill him for damages. That being said, in this particular case the billing was apparently an accident and according to the article the UP is owning up to it.
Frank Hicks
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
thanks for the help
paul
-Chris
Someone get these guys to Branford, pronto. Let them operate on the house.
http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=13832
Also on the watch list are passengers "behaving oddly,"...operating in a group in "an orchestrated or rehearsed manner."
Sounds a lot like a photo line to me. That's why members of the National Militant Railfan Organization don't stand in photo lines.
Did everything go according to plan or were there mile long queues for buses and rioting on the platforms?
I wasn't in London last weekend, but I suspect the answer to your question was "no". People are pretty well used to weekend disruptions of public transport. Just for information, the London Underground website has the following information about the District/Circle Line weekend closures on it at the moment:
'The only stations without an alternative Underground service are: Blackfriars, Cannon Street, Mansion House, Sloane Square, St James's Park, Temple and Tower Hill. These stations are well served by London Buses.
Leaflets giving information on alternative routes, including walking routes, will be available at all affected stations and to the tourist industry on request.
As affected stations are well served by existing bus routes no replacement bus service will be provided during the closures. The number 15 which serves the Tower Hill area will be boosted by an extra 10 buses an hour between 1200 hours and 1800 hours and Tube tickets will be accepted on London Bus routes throughout the affected area.
Howard Collins, Service Director, Sub Surface Railways for London Underground, said: "We have planned a programme that will cause the minimum amount of disruption possible but we apologise for any inconvenience that these closures may cause.
"These track works are absolutely essential and, when completed, should help us to provide a more reliable service on the District and Circle lines.
"Our staff will be ready to help passengers plan alternative routes and we will do our very best to keep everyone moving during the closures."'
Why is Amtrak so bloody expensive? NJ Transit uses nearly identical locomotives to pull (admitedly less comfy) coaches using lots and lots of union employees over the exact same rails. How do they manage to charge less?
And for heaven's sake, why does it cost more to take the Acela from Philly to NYC than to fly from Philly to LA? Is the Northeast Corridor subsidizing the rest of the system?
I *do* get my tail up in the air though whenever these political hacks threaten my ride and the livelihood of my neighbors. If rail got HALF the subsidy that the airlines and trucking industry get, we'd probably have STREETCARS too.
New Jersey recognizes that rail passenger transportation is a necessary part of infrastructure, like roads, bridges, schools, and police departments, and supports it with tax money.
Without NJT trains, North Jersey would be gridlocked.
And South Jersey, without either the NJT trains OR the Moses-esque highway system that North Jersey was given (perhaps 'handed on a silver platter' is a better term) IS gridlocked every rush hour.
Trenton don't care about rail passenger transportation down here, we're handed our Atlantic City Line and SNJLRTS and told to leave them alone.
South Jersey could have passenger service from Philly to Cape May if Trenton would spring for the money to rebuild the existing NJDOT-owned track.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
ALP46's, for example.
NJ Transit doesn’t have a commuter ticket price between Philadelphia and NY Penn; does anyone know what it is?
Yes.
I advocate the elimination of all Federal Gasoline and Highway taxes, together with the elimination of all Federal highway funding.
Clearly I expect that this tax will not go away, indeed will even increase as States and Regional Authorities up their taxes and tolls to replace the Federal dollars.
But this gives the localaties the options to spend the money on transportation resources that will best serve their communities. Clearly much of the Greater NY area are highway saturated, and paving over more land and building more highways is counterproductive in this environment. Better Rail Transit, together with some inovations, such as closing the Manhattan CBD to automobiles is a start.
Perhaps future commercial developments might be made without any significant highway access. Why not build a "Horizontal World Trade Center" That straddles a main rail line.
Development costs are then shared with the developers as well as by the state.
Elias
OK, I'll Grant you that one, but it should NOT be the Federal Government that is doing it.
Elias
Hey I have an idea, NY can issue it's own money also, and so can NJ Calf. etc.
And that evil federal govenment, imagine them depriving the states that so choose to allow slavery!
It think history shows that the federal government has brought about much more progress than the states themselves
The problem is when the fed tells the States what they can and cannot do.
You can build this highway but not this subway.
There are things that the states should do; and there are things that the federal government should do.
Federal: Military, Defense, Justice, Monetary Policy
State: Highway, Transit, Education, Fire and Police, Services
Local: Streets, Schools, Social Programs and welfare.
Things need to be taken care of at the LOWEST LEVEL POSSIBLE
Health Care is a NATIONAL problem, but it is not a FEDERAL problem.
Every Locality has the same issues, the same people, and the same requirements for funding. People issues NEED to be dealt with at the LOCAL Level. THAT IS WHERE THE PEOPLE ARE! People need people, personal attention. Throwing money at them will not solve their issues. Too often the response to people in need is to give them some money and to tell them to go away.
Infrastructure needs need to be solved by those who need the infrastructure, not by those in Washington who are only interested in fat bacon.
No subway will ever be built again if we have to wait or grovel for FEDERAL money. Screew the Fed, get some local money, and build the damn things already.
Elias
Also, civil rights is not a state issue, the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts are both enforcement of existing Constitutional Amendments, which I don't want to repeal (the 16th is the only one I want out). Finally, if you don't like a state with bad laws, move.
If you don't like a country with bad laws, oops.
I don't want to start an OT flame war, but I can see grounds for wanting to do away with the 22nd as well. It would have certainly been interesting to see what the American people would have made of a choice between Bush Jr and Clinton. The 16th is definitely the worst of the lot though. How on earth did it get passed in the first place?
I would make the %ge progressive, so that states with a higher GDP/head contribute more. I would also add the capability for a majority of state administrations to reject the federal budget.
The farther away your money goes from you, the less you can expect to see it return to you.
a little sex or nudity is very bad, but mind-blowing violence is good wholesome stuff.
I, as a Brit, have constantly been amused by the double/triple standards that are in place in the USA.
The taboos on general nudity (Lord save us from seeing Janet Jackson’s tit) compared with explicit violence, showing body limbs being torn asunder being commonplace.
Compare with GB, where full frontal nudity appears on national television (though late at night) but censors routinely ask for violence to be toned down.
I agree with this approach more than the American approach.
Stupid Religious Wrong.
Stupid Religious Wrong.
Well, this country was founded on puritanical religionism. But in any population you will find a "right-wing-puritanical" faction and a "left-wing-permissive" faction. And it does not matter if the issue at hand is sex, war, or redbirds!
Over here the puritanical faction seems to have the ascendancy over the permissives in the realms of sexual mores. But right or left, there are those who would want to shape your world for you, and that you live according to their rules. This we cannot allow.
Elias
Then again, I'm reminded of "Revelation." Agggh. :(
It isn't about left or right, it IS about right and wrong. I've NEVER appreciated the underlying concept until now, even if not specifically enumerated in the Constitution, but rather in the footnotes and Federalist Papers with respect to the NEED for freedom OF religion as well as freedom FROM religion in this nation. And it's being abused to no end. :(
I thought we went to WAR to *oust* the Taliban ... NOW they're in CHARGE here. :(
As a Catholic dealing with all the "priests and young boys" nonsense while similar goes on by the same percentages (actually LESS for Catholic priests than the general population) among ALL religions, I find it MIGHTY curious how one was singled out for THAT diversion. :(
The deal there is that Catholics have stood so tall on the moral high ground that they stood out, and their sins were all the more obvious and hypocritical. A Uniterian can get away with more, because they are not so critical of others.
There is no "Separation of Church and State" in the constitution, nor in any subsequent laws, but rather that the government may not make *any* laws with respect to religion. Certainly the banning of a religious practice under the guise of "Separation of Church and State" is itself quite unconstitutional.
It is convoluted, where simply respect for others is all that is required.
Elias
When an administration stands on how moral *they* are, and appoint themselves as "God's representatives," I feel they're entitled to be questioned ... given ... Jesus was *not* a republican. :(
BTW: Did you sell any software this week? : )
but I've got a LONG way to go before I can pay my school taxes. And I never reproduced (owing to powerful radio frequencies at megawatts of power) ... Thing that amazes me the MOST though is here in Uh-merica, folks download that "free software" and wonder why there's no CPU time left for them and the internet on DSL or cablemodem is pokier than it was on AOL. Heh. Hint: it AIN'T your connection, it's the "ghost in the machine" ... alas, we can't afford to give away our stuff for free for all the work I gotta do for that $48 this week.
Check *THIS* out ... gives you an idea of what I'm up against ... we HAVE the solution, but if I opened gunfire in a SCHOOL we couldn't get the press for it ...
http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2004/Apr/1036172.htm (92 Percent of organizations With at Least 100 Employees Have Been Contaminated With Spyware, Yet Only Six Percent of Employees Believe They Have Been Infected) ...
The numbers are HIGHER for government machines - I can tell in my daily spam relay and virus tracebacks ... but hey, underfunded and overloaded, all this obviously ain't a problem or I'd have the money to lease whole trains and take folks for a genuine Branford-style Unca Selkirk excursion.
Good news though ...
-----------------------------
Hi everybody, yesterday (Friday 7th of May 2004) the author of the Sasser worm was arrested. Here are a few snippets that various press agencies run:
His name is Sven J.
He is 18 years old and finished a intermediate school and wants get his high school diploma to go on and study computer science
He immediately confessed when the police arrived friday night with a search warrant
Police found lots of inciminating evidence on his systems
He *might* also me the Netsky.AC author
His mother runs a computer help desk service
He is located in a small town in Lower Saxony (Hannover) Germany
He was released after questioning and turning in his buddies ...
A group of three virus/worm authors has been arrested in Germany. The main suspect is from Lörrach, Baden-Würtemberg, Germany the others from Bavaria and Lower Saxony (both also German states). The team is believed to be the authoring or at least the authoring team of variants of the GAOBOT and PHATBOT. Arrests and search warrants were carried out friday 2004/05/07
--------------------------------
Heh. No WONDER it was quiet ... and with the Chinese government shutting down their rogue internet cafe's the night before, there goes Netsky (original) as well as Bagle. Woohoo! :)
Now it's back to the Visual basic l33t chit for which there are usually only 3-4 per day. Heh.
But *I* got it easy ... I have friends in the New York National Guard who are over there ... wanna know WHY they got their tour extended until after the election? Nah ... let's not go there. Don't mind me, with the last dose of news from "over there," my rump's SERIOUSLY in the air with these corrupt ... agggh. :(
all but one to the "Old Yurp" and Canada. Go figure. I guess bashing republicans brings in more money than praising a burning Shrub. :)
And the one you sold in this country was to a know Bush supporter, I'll bet! : )
I'd test a copy on *my* machine, but *I* don't get hose kinds of trojans! Bust some other machines are sure enough infested. Ad-Aware is nice, but you gotta pay them money if you want the virgin that runs in the background. Ack... If I have to pay money....
: )
SOMEBODY has to do the right thing, I'd like to think I'm still ONE of those. (grin) After all, it's not the quantity of toys one acquires, it the things they're happy to do for good reason. Don't wanna turn this into "Churchtalk" ... and I *doubt* the US sale this week was a Bushie ... after all, the vast majority of the nasties come from porn and piracy sites. Ridding them sorta messes that up. Heh. But ya gotta LOVE the irony of the excuses of those who hijack the machines of others ... "go to the cops? Uh yeah, right. LOOK what WE'VE got on yer sorry Microsoft.net ASP." :)
No it wasn't. All of the founding fathers were deists who went to church only to keep up appearances.
All of the founding fathers were deists who went to church only to keep up appearances.
That is not true. Lest not of the settlers who were here *before* the "founding" fathers.
I am related to some of these "founding fathers" and I *know* where they went to church.
: ) Elias
This only applies to certain colonies, not to others.
Rhode Island was formed specifically as a place for religious freedom.
New York (New Netherlands) was formed for the purposes of making money. They couldn't give a flying fig what religion the settlers were.
New Jersey was formed from New York.
I am related to some of these "founding fathers" and I *know* where they went to church.
What does that prove?
By collecting on the federal level, we are all in it together.
And remember, many bigots (both then and now) try to hide behind "States Rights" as the "real" reason the South fought the civil war. Slavery just happened to be one of those rights.
This is guilt by association. States Rights may have been used to justify slavery, but that doesn't mean that states rights=slavery all the time.
Some southerners will tell you that until the Emancipation Proclamation, the war wasn't about slavery. And Santa Claus is real.
I admit it is somewhat of an overstatment, but the federal government is the fairest place to collect tax revenue.
I believe that the federal government should collect taxes from states as a function of the state's GDP.
But then what about those with needs that must be funded by the government, the old, the sick, those with problems that needed addressing?
It's a rather odd contrivance on my part, but I believe those services fall under the government's mandate to defend each person's right to life, liberty and property (yes, I'll use Locke's rather than Jefferson's term). It's not fair that people are born disadvantaged relative to others. All achievements should be merit based.
Therefore I have a unique political view for a libertarian or classical liberal because I believe in governmentally funded healthcare, education and similar services.
Oh, and welfare (NOT WORKFARE) is a vital part of a nation's economic policy.
My political views are well know so I naturally support single payer health insurance (it's a disgrace that the richest nation in the history of the world has so many of it's citizens with substandard health coverage or no coverage) as well as education and similar services as you mention. Your views are just that, your views. I don't think anyone (no matter where on the political spectrum they may be) adheres to all aspects of the traditional issues for there polical position.
I very much agree with your thought that it is not fair that some are born with disadvantages relative to others. I also think it is very unfair that someone can lose everything they have worked for their entire life just because they become ill. Illness or injury can strick anyone at any time.
I don't expect anyone to agree with me completely.
BAD IDEA. There are many valid reasons to enter the Manhattan CBD by automobile.
As for the privacy issue, people who need privacy can ride transit!
Chuck
By CRAIG MAURO
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON - Amtrak has a new booster club.
More than 50 chambers of commerce and other business groups on the East Coast joined together Wednesday to lobby Congress to fully fund the railroad's $1.8 billion budget request.
The Bush administration has sent Congress an Amtrak request of $900 million, an amount that Amtrak President David Gunn said would eventually force a shutdown of the system. The railroad urgently needs capital investments, he said - warning that "time is running out" for some of its aging infrastructure.
The newly formed Amtrak Business Coalition sent a letter Wednesday to congressional appropriations leaders urging them to meet Amtrak's full funding request for fiscal year 2005.
The group announced its efforts at a boarding gate in Union Station, the third busiest station in the Amtrak system last year, behind Penn Station in New York and 30th Street Station in Philadelphia.
John D. Porcari, a member of the transportation committee of the Greater Washington Board of Trade, called Amtrak the "lifeblood" of the Northeast's economy. He said the railroad serves more than 6 million riders and employed nearly 4,000 people in Washington, D.C., Maryland and Virginia.
"If Amtrak were not to run tomorrow morning, imagine the incredible congestion we would experience throughout the Northeast corridor," said Sen. Paul Sarbanes, D-Md. "You'd have absolute gridlock."
Gunn, who took over Amtrak in May 2002, said the rail service has been neglected and desperately needs cash. Tracks, rail ties and power cables need replacing or upgrading. At one point, Gunn said, a 12,000-volt cable installed in the 1930s was powering the rail system's entire Northeast corridor.
There are also three bridges in Connecticut that need repair- though they're not in danger of collapse, Gunn said.
The Amtrak Business Coalition has members in Connecticut, Delaware, the District of Columbia, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont and Virginia.
(Copyright 2004 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
So what if we decided to actually USE the rails on Germantown, Erie, Girard and Torresdale?! It's a simple plan, first they completely tear up the 23 and 56 (the 15's mostly done, although IMHO the western end could use some work), and replace the old girder rail-in-paving stone track there now with the rubber enveloped in concrete track now common on the subway-surface. This track is smoother, less maitenance, and also easier on the cars driving on the concrete above, you'd no longer have people complaining about the state of Torresdale Ave (which is terrible, I drove it today). This project would be easily accomplished in 2-3 years if given full funding, since the whole route is already bustituted anyway, we could have two or three work zones per line and just detour the buses around the construction.
Next we need cars to run the lines. Obviously we're out of PCCs so rebuilds are out, and there are no K-cars to spare, so SEPTA would finally have to bite the bullet and shell out for new cars. I like the Skoda-Inekon Astra 10T, the low floor streetcar that Portland Streetcar operates. They're light, highly accessible (just stick a NFI-type ramp on them), perfectly sized for SEPTA's operations, with two trucks and two articulations, they avoid the problems that MBTA has encounter trying to run a split-axle low floor car on a heritage-type system. I'd prefer if they were made as compatible with the PCC IIs as possible, that'd mean body by Skoda, trucks by Brookville, and electronics by Kiepe, with final assembly done at Brookville Mining Equipment.
Enough cars would have to be ordered to cover the 15, 23 and 56, this would move the PCC IIs to Elmwood (shouldn't be too hard to fit them with CBTC, assuming they don't already have it) to bolster the rush hour depletion of the K-cars there. It'd also put the more accessible low floor LRVs on the streets rather than in the tunnel. It's easier to run an accessible LRV on the street where just having an onboard ramp makes it accessible than running it in the currently non-ADA compliant subway surface (still haven't seen the elevators at 30th St move an inch), where a W/C passenger would get off and face 20-30 steps to the surface.
This of course would be more expensive right now than ordering 96 inch wide buses, probably by an order of magnitude or more, but in the long term SEPTA would benefit more from truely fixing the problem of the 15, 23 and 56 rather than another band-aid that'll fall off in 15 years when those shiny new 96 inch wide "special" buses fall apart and need to be replaced. Those LRVs should last at least 30 years, probably a lot more, they'll also provide a higher LOS and at the same time make the area along Germantown Ave even more attractive to live in. The greater number of doors means that no longer will there exsist the mass of people huddled around the narrow front door of a Neoplan DK in the winter (this of course assumes SEPTA is smart and would choose POP for the 15, 23 and 56). And at 66 feet long, they'll carry more passengers than the "big" Neoplan Artics that would be unable to navigate the narrow Germantown Ave.
Oh well, just my coupla cents, there's a duplicate post with more rants directed at SEPTA on bustalk: http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?bustalk=112885
Lincoln Park Towing was the nemesis of auto owners in the Lincoln Park neighborhood of Chicago.
The 23 ran from Bethlehem Pike to Erie Avenue, looping at the Bainbridge loop two blocks south of Erie on 12th Street.
The 23 has been split in a few ways...
Limited weekday runs from Chelten Ave to Market St.
Trips from Lehigh to Bainbridge
The ULTIMATE split... the line ran NORTH from 10th & Bigler to Germantown & Butler, and SOUTH from Chestnut Hill to Ontario & Germantown all day long weekdays... passengers going full-route had to tranfer (for free) between Butler and Ontario Streets, uually done at Broad & Erie. THAT lasted but one schedule change, and was done away with the same year.
And of course, the trips from South Philly late at night are terminated at Erie, with the regular all-night service to Chestnut Hill picking up pasengers going further north (trips overnight only run the route from Chestnut Hill to Broad & Erie; everything in this time from South Philadelphia is just coming back from there.). That's sort of a split.
Having the route go half and half would kill the 23's legacy as the longest trolley in the country (of course, the Baltimore Light Rail is probably longer by now).
and Amtrak's Acela from my window-
OTOH, you should stop in South Norwalk, Greenwich (take your credit card), Rye, or Old Greenwich for the village character -- different in each, very fascinating. Port Chester was the economic powerhouse of the Shore, a hundred years ago, and it's a fascinating and culturally diverse place, and it's coming back. Larchmont (station under repair) is a little duller (very French -- great restaurants -- see jazz at Watercolors, including Sloane Wainwright), but Mamaroneck has a very interesting working wharf and also some economic variety, for a residential suburb. New Rochelle (where I lived) is White Plains East, but try the New Roc Center for sports equipment -- they repeatedly rescue this in-town mall. There are much more fascinating places than Stamford, which is really just a branch of upper Sixth Avenue.
It is. Fairfield has an upscale downtown strip just south of the train station and an area of large historic houses just to the south of that. The beach is about ten minutes' further walk.
And from the front window heading into GCT
Interesting perspective on the 2nd and 3rd shots. The 4th one is kinda artsy, almost.
That reminds me: What is the auto tunnel from 33rd to 40th officially called? The Park Avenue Underpass or Park Avenue Vehicular Tunnel? I just call it the Park Avenue Tunnel because the train tunnel is the Metro-North Tunnel.
I don't understand what you mean here. Electricity is electricity, whether it comes from overhead, third rail, conduit, or any other collection method.
If you are referring to the train's speed or acceleration profile, that's trainset and rule dependent, not where the juice comes from.
In MU and light load, AC propulsky has the ability to choose the most suitable voltage and phase angles to get going for any acceleration curve, thanks to the miracle of computer control. But when it comes to sheer horsepower, DC traction's still got it as long as you get past 5MPH before the motors burn. Stall out, watch that cabinet pop and clatter and then the motors flash and you'd better apply. AC just won't move. (grin)
I thought that the reason the Cosmopolitans performed better under catenary was the higher voltage, resulting in more power per unit current.
No matter what the power source, the traction motors get DC. On third rail, duh., on AC power, it's rectified on board.
Also, on DC, power is switched resistance controlled, on AC, I'm pretty sure it's phase angle, which has lower losses.
Simple exercise - assume a maximum current of 1000 amps per car on DC at 650V, and 100 amps per car on AC at 12,500 V. Calculate the theoretical maximum current draw. Explain it? I'm just guesitmating these currents, BTW.
Oh yeah, and to be anal - there's a voltage drop on third rail and it's quite a bit more than overhead because of the huge current.
Why the sigh? You're confirming what I said: that the power source has nothing to do with the motors.
When the discussion turned towards AC, I *assumed* that some of the trains did indeed have AC traction motors like the R142s and 143's and of course the 80MAC locomotives to which I was referring. There IS AC traction out there as opposed to DC. Just wanted to make it plain that I wasn't confused in THAT area.
In the end though, if the MU's are still all DC traction motors then the SOURCE doesn't matter much - if you're dealing with AC on the overhead, simple matter of rectifiers on board the cars to drop the "wrong half cycles" on its way to the motors as Dave said. (I doubt they have electrolytic capacitors to "smooth it out a bit" since they'd be HUGE)
But where I was going with my own tangent back there is that while AC traction is much more efficient than DC motors, there is the issue of DC motors having a *LOT* more oomph down near "stall" ... before they burn up of course. :)
Oh, the M-2, if it's like every other GE MU w.r.t. AC power, doesn't drop the wrong half cycles, it flips them the right way :)
The Silverliners and such have bridge rectifiers, I'm guessing the M2 does too.
They have filter chokes to help smooth things out a little. Origionally, the A circuit fed it's rectifier via two ignitrons in parallel (one in each direction), but I think they were refitted with SCRs, and the M4/6 cars have SCRs.
I remember CI Peter going into a discussion less than a year ago on the 142's and how the horsepower ain't there from a dead start either and I've also been told by some buddies of mine who worked at kawasaki when the first 143's arrived that they too lacked "oomph" from a dead start. In the situation of MU's though it certainly isn't a problem compared to an 80MAC pulling a load of ore cars ... the principal reason for AC traction on freight is that you don't burn up your motors at low speeds.
As to the rectifiers, wasn't sure if it was half or full wave - THANKS for the answer on that one! :)
Steel rail has a resistance of 0.6/W ohms per 1000', where W
is the weight in pounds per yard. So, 150# third rail gives
4 mOhms per 1000'. 0000 hard-drawn copper wire has a resistance
of about 50 mOhm/1000'. Since there are two wires in parallel,
that's .025/1000'.
Assume simple transformer laws and neglect efficiencies, etc.
Then the nominal current draw at 750V (third rail) will be
16.7 times that from the catenary (12,500). So, the voltage
drop will indeed be 2.7 times greater per unit length for
third rail as opposed to catenary. Expressed in terms of
percent of nominal voltage, the voltage drop effect will be
2.7x16.7=45 times worse for third rail.
Maybe Dutchrailnut could tell you the nominal current draw
for Metronorth cars. I think it is about 75-100 A in AC mode,
per car.
Before I ended up doing what I do now, worked for the Public Shafting Commission and though I worked Communications Division, I also did Power stuff as well. Where I live now, I have a massive substation on one end of the property and 245kV lines cutting diagonally across it. Your 600 volt overhead at Branford is no match for me. Heh. I suppose that's why nobody minded when I volunteered to be the rope grabber as we backpoled 1689 last time I was down in the pouring rain whilst Unca Bill was out at Short Beach with W3. 600 volts. Feh. :)
Ah, the joys of quantifying over an empty set.
But assume for a moment that I was, all I'm asking for is a source of reference.
BTW Mr. Pot, haven't you refused on several occasions to provide referances to back up your own claims?
We took three cars up for the simulation, #2008, 2014 and 2023. During the simulation we tested out what is to be the second express-like service on the Light Rail Line, called a Bergen Bullet as opposed to the Bayonne Flyer.
Below is some shots from today.....
Car #2008 preparing for a Local Simulation on the Baldwin Viaduct.
Car #2008 and 2023 during Simulation at 9th Street-Congress Station.
Car #2023 and 2014 during Simulation at 9th Street-Congress Station.
Car #2023 on the North Extension Right-of-Way between 9th St and 2nd St Stations.
1st of several new cars being assembled for the North Extension, however the first three are heading to Newark City Subway, here is NCS Car #121. So New They Haven't Even Put The Numbers On Yet.
Here are some videos for ya....
Car #2014 running at full speed during Bergen Bullet Simulation at 9th Street
Cab Ride in Car #2014 during Bergen Bullet Simulation through the 3 Roads Interlocking, Past 9th Street and into 2nd Street Interlocking (Nice Sized Download, But Worth It!
Enjoy!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.info
Click Here
I Apologize,
Trevor
Bob
While you were there, did you tell the WGI people to tell their employees to stop calling the cops on us?
Trevor
Trevor
Trevor
I thought it was interesting that the train in that video was running on the left-hand track of the ROW. Obviously, it was to pass another train, but interesting nonetheless.
I wonder how far I will get for using my 007 phone while taking pictures of the HBLR cars while I am on public streets before the cops arrest me and confiscate my phone.
Fans of the east-side Hoboken alignment (with whom I often sympathize) will certainly be displeased with this permanent setback.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/20278.htm"
(1) The city is intensively covered, so that you are never more than a few minutes walk from a station
(2) Frequent services
(3) Fast, considering the closely spaced stations
(4) Lots of nice decor in the stations - and the platforms and the trains are clean. A renovation program will have covered 75% of the stations by the end of 2005.
(5) Sort of railfan window available (full-width cabs but a window behind the driver that you can use to see out the front), and no competition to use it - maybe there aren't many French raifans.
(6) Fair variety of rolling stock, up to and including the ZPTO trains on the new 14 line - which of course have a full-width railfan window!
(7) Electronic signs with good, accurate indication of when the next two trains are coming. Signage generally good, in fact.
(8) Honest-to-gosh el sections on the 2 & 6 lines, with proper elevated stations and nice views over the city
(9) Escalators that work
(10) And, at a few stations, the wonderful historic Guimard entrances with "Metropolitain" in fancy writing - in general, the historic nature of the system, which dates from 1900.
Negatives:
(1) Quite a lot of graffiti in the pedestrian accesses - generally lower standard of cleanliness than on the actual platforms. Graffiti in the tunnels, even well away from any station.
(2) Only five-car trains - but then, that is the length of the stations, and the services are frequent enough to avoid too much overcrowding
(3) Rather long walks between lines at interchange stations, and in general lots of steps to climb (despite all the escalators), and not much disabled access
(4) To find the right platform to take you in the right direction, you need to know the name of the terminal station of the line; ther is no use of the equivalent of "eastbound" and "westbound" or "Uptown and the Bronx" and "Downtown and Brooklyn".
I also rode the RER a little - the trains are in general scruffier than the Metro ones, with some graffiti on the trains. Some of them are double-deckers; even my non-railfan wife liked riding the top deck!
I discovered that Paris has LRT too - two "tramway" lines at present, with a third planned. They run on circumferential routes in the suburbs. T1 runs across the northeast, in the "red belt" of communist suburbs now largely inhabited by black and Arab people, has mostly on-street running (some of it on Rue Lenine!), and was grotesquely overcrowded when I was on it. T2, on the west side, runs on former rail RoW through a much more upscale area, and guess what, it wasn't overcrowded. T3 will be across the south, replacing heavily used bus routes. Maybe eventually all these trams will link up into an "outer circle" route.
The feature that does make me wish for a do-over is the transfer passages, as you mention. If you look at schematics of the stations you notice that they're much more complex than they need be. A principle of the original designs was that pax not use the platforms to circulate; instead they all move to the exits at either end of each platform and are directed into transfer passages from there, even if the line they're looking for actually passes above the center of the platform they debarked at. Makes for quite a hike.
My one criticism of the beautiful Paris system (a philosophical railfan-architect-type criticism) is the lack of variety among stations. They are beautiful, and the tile is the white tile that is now being reused in the best NYC stations, but the stations don't provide the intriguing historical archeology that NYC's do.
Agreed - but then no other system anywhere has the wonderful mosaics that the older parts of the NYCS possess. However, some of the modern rehabs in Paris have provided distinctive decor - at Cluny-La Sorbonne station, for example, there is a stunning modern abstract mosaic on the ceiling, above the tracks.
I wish the quality of the artists was as consistently high as in Paris. 6 Av/42 St tunnel mosaics are extraordinary; the sculptor who does the bronzes at 14 st/8 Av and elsewhere is very engaging; Lorimer/Metro is a "maybe"; but I think many of the 7 Av stations are questionable. Paris art is much more carefully reviewed and integrated with the architecture.
Interesting point about all the exits being at the ends of platforms -which is true in general, with a few exceptions. In fact the stations are generally much more uniform in design than say NYC subway or London Underground stations are - reflecting the fact that the whole system has always been one system, I guess, instead of having been built by a variety of companies originally. Of course, with the platforms being only five cars long, no-one has to walk all that far to an exit, especially as many stations have exits at both ends of the platform.
Incidentally, east of Sevres-Babylone station on the 10 line I spotted a closed station: it would have been very closely spaced even by Paris standards, which is probably why it closed.
Except lines 12 and 13...
Incidentally, east of Sevres-Babylone station on the 10 line I spotted a closed station: it would have been very closely spaced even by Paris standards, which is probably why it closed.
Ah, Croix Rouge. The entrances are still visible at street level (one stairway is intact, the other has an extractor fan in it). It was closed, not due to close spacing, but because of a slight international relations problem on 2nd September 1939.
Interesting piece of history, but why was it not reopened after WW2?
1) Arsenal (5, between Q-de-la-Rapée and Bastille) - IIRC this was located at Rue Mornay
2) Champ-de-Mars (8, between la-Motte-Picquet-G and Ecole Militaire) - the entrances were right in front of th Ecole Militaire
3) Croix-Rouge (the one we've been talking about) - located at Carrefour de la Croix-Rouge
Arsenal is in quite a long gap in a relatively unserved area. I don't know why that one didn't reopen. Champ-de-Mars had serious proximity issues and no real ridership base (it has a park on one side and the Military School on the other). Croix-Rouge remained closed in an effort to reduce the duplication between the various lines (quite an achievement given that all the lines bar line 12 and the Northern half of 13 were built by the same company). Croix-Rouge was right by St-Sulpice. Rennes, which was also closed for WWII, remained closed after the liberation, but reopened in the late 60s for limited hours (the same story happened to Liège), is right by St Placide.
The only station reopened after the liberation which subsequntly closed was St-Denis, due to proximity to République (it was located just West of that station on lines 8 and 9). It is currently used by the Sally Army as a homeless shelter.
Cluny on line 10 remained closed after the liberation until the extension of the Sceaux line as RER B, at which point it reopened as Cluny-la-Sorbonne.
I don't think it re-opened after the War. St-Sulpice was also closed during the War.
BTW, see the photo of Haxo where it shows some Spragues tagged?
Sacrilège! I haven't ridden on a Sprague since 1981. I hope I can be there when they run the specials.
I also love the white and aqua colors of the trains, and the way the system was planned so that most of Paris is within 500m (I think that's the distance) from a Metro station.
Mark
Another film with a bunch of Paris Metro scenes is Last Tango in Paris.
Do we have a traitor in our midst? Paris subway #1 indeed.
You said there are aren't many French railfans - I wonder why? Because they most likely come to NYC to see our system!!
What is a "Proper elevated station" that you mentioned in #8
-------------
But anyway, good to hear you had a nice time on your trip.
Ones that look like NYCS elevated stations, of course! They have little "historical marker" plaques on the platforms of some of the el stations (which they call "gares aeriennes") explaining why certain parts of the system are elevated. There are 29 elevated stations, about 10% of the total.
Some of the gaps between stations are a bit of a joke though. I accidentally ended up in Pont Neuf station one time when I was trying to find an entrance to Châtelet on the 7.
(9) Escalators that work
Although you don't really need them at all... it's mostly really shallow, which can only be a good thing!
(2) Only five-car trains - but then, that is the length of the stations, and the services are frequent enough to avoid too much overcrowding
The only line where I'd say an extension in train lengths would be a good idea is 4 - I'd walk from Réaumur-Sebastopol to Odéon rather than ride those packed things!
I also rode the RER a little - the trains are in general scruffier than the Metro ones, with some graffiti on the trains. Some of them are double-deckers; even my non-railfan wife liked riding the top deck!
The bit where line C bridges the Seine is a favourite of mine!
Similar things happen in downtown New York - the WTC terminus of the E, Cortlandt St R/W, and Broadway/Fulton/Nassau, for example, have entrances that are very close together, and the unwary tourist could go into the wrong one.
Chatelet is huge. Pont-Neuf is probably closer than the platform of the 4 at Chatelet from the 7, let alone Chatelet-Les Halles.
The only line where I'd say an extension in train lengths would be a good idea is 4
The 1 and 4 already got their trains extended to 6 cars. But yes! The 4 needs more cars. I would say the 13, too.
The 4 would be crowded at 8-car trains, especially on the central section. The 13, however, will be sorted once the 14 takes over the Asnières-Gennevilliers branch.
Possibly a good idea would be to split the 4: leave the original line for Gare du Nord to Montparnasse-Bienvenüe, then take the outer segments and connect them to a new line (call it 15) running (from Montparnasse) under the 4 (Rue de Rennes), then curving right under the Rue de Vaugirard, left under the Rue de Condé, then passing deep under the Latin Quarter (sort of aligned with the Rue des Grands Augustins), then under the Seine and Ile de la Cité, continuing under the Rue des Bourdonnais, Rue Balard, Rue Montongueil, Rue des Petits Carneaux, Rue Poissonière, Rue La Fayette to the Gare du Nord to take over the Northern part of the 4. The stations on this intermediate section would be Montparnasse-Bienvenüe (4)(6)(12)(13), Rennes-St-Placide (4)(13), Bonaparte, Odéon (4)(10), Pont Neuf (7), Les Halles (4)(A)(B)(D)(1)(7)(11), Sentier (3), Bonne Nouvelle (8)(9), Richer, Poisonnière-Chabrol (7), Gare du Nord (4)(5)(B)(D)(E)(2).
It would be West of Les Halles on the 4 - it would be a heck of a walk to Châtelet and in effect would only be useful for getting between the 15 and RER.
Montparnasse definitely needs an RER line to the CBD. Line 13 and 14(the old one) got connected for this purpose but it's simply not enough.
The problem is that although St-Lazare is busy, it isn't exactly the centre of Paris, so the 13 will always be of limited utility.
I don't know if the fast travolator("Ne levez pas les pieds") from the SNCF and lines 6 and 13 station to lines 4 and 12 have alleviated the crowd on the 13, though.
It's a horrid interchange. I always try to avoid it (eg by using Denfert).
Two things about your negatives:
1) It is true that the average Paris train is five cars, but that is not the length of every train in the métro. For example, the shuttles (3bis & 7bis) have only 3 cars while the #1 line has 7 cars.......well really one big car if you count the fact that there aren't any walls between cars and that it becomes one big articulated car that bends on curves. And that's not even counting the RER which has train lengths often longer than the LIRR.
2) Depending on your station, the line signage will also display a route stop sign displaying all of the stops being served by the train in that particular direction. Of course, it is best to know the terminal of the train that you wish to board since "Vers au Nord" or "Vers au Sud" doesn't quite work as well as "Uptown" & "Downtown".
Bit embarrassing to admit this - we forgot to take the camera, and had to buy a disposable. Which means the photos aren't digital, of course, so I'll have to scan them and see how well they turn out. I do have a couple of decent metro pictures - one of the 1 train crossing the Seine on the Pont Neuilly on the way to La Defense (taken from the Esplanade de la Defense above the station of that name), quite nice because it's the only place where the 1 comes above ground.
Looking forward to it!
If I were being a pedant, there's that small section of open-air running at Bastille too.
With the cars being so limited, do they allow bicycles to board the train?
http://www.boston.com/news/local/rhode_island/articles/2004/05/06/northeast_business_groups_get_behind_amtrak/
Not with Republicans controlling things. Those were also the Robert Moses years, don't forget; neither party will do that in rail's favor.
Perhaps this lobbying effort is too little, too late, but it's a first when it comes to business and Amtrak and may build upon itself.
Pataki says 100,000 people a day would use the system, and once constructed it would bring $9-12 billion in economic benefits annually to the region. You can expect these estimates to receive plenty of scrutiny. Pataki says the project could be completed by 2013, with construction to start in 2006. The environmental review process will begin this summer.
The detailed study hasn't been released yet (I can't find it, anyway). I received an e-mail from the LMDC last night, which included a 1 minute video illustrating how the new service would work. It shows passengers boarding airtrains at JFK and traveling directly to Lower Manhattan via Atlantic Avenue. But it also appeared to show full-length trains running in parallel. You couldn't really tell what kind of rolling stock they intended to use. The existing Airtrain stock is not well suited for a long trip into Manhattan.
Pataki promised a 37-minute trip (measured, I presume, from Jamaica Station), which he said was 15 minutes faster than taking the LIRR to Penn Station and transferring to the 2/3. The route would include a Downtown Brooklyn stop, improving commuter access to that neighborhood as well.
In Manhattan, the tunnel would emerge at Hanover Square, where it would offer a connection to the Second Avenue Subway, before continuing to a new terminal at the World Trade Center. The possibility of extending E service to Brooklyn via the same tunnel was also mentioned.
All such projects need to consider alternatives. Of the options that leveraged existing subway tunnels, only the Montague option remains on the table, although it clearly is not anybody's preference. The Montague tunnel today is only about 50% utilized, and one could argue that existing resources should be used before you build new ones, but doing so would remove re-routing flexibility from the system.
Pataki identified a number of potential funding sources, but none of them quite add up to $6.0 billion yet. Congress has authorized up to $2.5 billion in tax credits that haven't been claimed, and these could be converted into direct grants. Cancel the $900 million West Street Tunnel project (ridiculously overpriced for its benefits, and opposed by BPC residents and the local community board), and you're well over half-way there.
1-A long curving wall runs from the middle of the site on Houston St to Crystie St-this delineates the subway that runs underneath.The new building will be over the subway.
2-A very thick-6 or 8'-concrete slab was poured at the corner of Houston and Crystie-this will be an entrance for the SAS station as shown in the plans in the FEIS.
DUH!
Since the F no longer runs via 53rd St to the 6th Av line, the TA is using the V as the reference to make the indiction that the E will run down 6th Av to W4.
If they had said "run on the F line" then most would assume that the E will operate via the 63rd St Connection.
What will customers at 5th Ave and Lexington/53rd say when the station is closed? The V does stop there and the poster indicates the E is running via. 53rd, not 63rd St tunnel as per the web site.
They will probably say #$%^@ Transit Authority.
It's a double edged sword in situtations like these. NYCT has serious problems getting the correct information across to it's customers and confusing signs like these pop up. OTOH, no one reads these posters anyway, but they accuse NYCT for lack of information. So these customers are in the wrong if they don't read the posters in the first place.
What does that say below it?
Trains run on the R between...
Pacific St
Weekend, 12:01 AM to 5 AM...
So with the late night E to Whitehall, now what? It should end at Canal/Tunnel platform.
You don't want me to reply to this message, but I should.
NYCT's management are a bunch of lazy bums whose only interest is getting a paycheck and not in the best interests of the customer. This weekend's service advisory is proof of that. Below is a link of a photo I took from my camera phone that illustrates the stupidity of posting wrong information. This photo cannot be doctored in any way::
{Link to the photo I took for Subtalk yesterday}
The E is not running on the V line during the day and how can you say the E is going to Pacific Street during late nights? The MTA web site this time has the correct information, please compare it to the poster Every weekend, same moronic posters. And you want us to look at the weekend posters before your plans become "Alphabet Soup"? It's NYCT that needs some alphabet soup learning.
Thank you Broadway Junction for the heads up.
That is what I saw on the website a few months back. Other escalators are being replaced with new ones.
Remove four additional escalators and their machine rooms and replace them with two new staircases
Provide additional station lighting above escalators
Replace fire alarm system for entire station
Replace heating, ventilation, lighting and communication systems in existing machine rooms and pits
Install pumps in escalator pits where gravity drainage is not possible
Peace,
ANDEE
David
Peace,
ANDEE
The elevators, and the areas to the IRT entrance will remain unaffected as the Flatbush Ave renovation goes into the next stage that will eventually be renamed Atlantic Ave Terminal upon completion.
Perhaps some trains would still terminate there, depending upon exactly what is built and what demand requires.
I vaguely remember an old show with Joey supposedly doing a scene in a subway station which looked more like a stage set than a subway station.
Does anyone know if there were ever any actual show scenes filmed in the subways that I might have missed? It has always been my impression that the actual show was filmed in California.
Incidently, there was a 48 page supplement to the May 2nd issue of the NY Daily News entitled "Farewell to Friends". This supplement was not included in the out-of-town edition of the paper. I'd really like to have a copy of this magazine if anyone has one to spare.
...and that the fake NYC street set was about 150 inches wide. The bus took up almost the entire width of the street.
Speaking of subway scenes, last night I saw a Mountain Dew commercial that took place in a subway station (one of the abandoned Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts. on the Fulton IND A, C, G trains).
I'm Rick James, (expletive deleted)!!
I much prefer the subway episode of Sienfeld in which each character has a different subway adventure: Elain gets stuck in a disabled train, Kramer battles thugs, Jerry meets a naked guy, and George is taken by a flirtatious thief.
Mark
Btw I wonder how Frasier will do next week anyway?
That was 1962, when streetcars still roamed the streets of Baltimore.
As far as I know it's completely done in an LA set, they even renamed the soundstage it took place in to the "Friends Soundstage". So if they ever did subway footage, it's probably that stock footage filler you see on almost all New York(and now Miami) shows.
I keep watching the old shows hoping to possibly see a subway scene.
I regret that I did not "discover" the show ten years ago when it first aired.
No, you're not, I also enjoyed the show.
I saw Phoebe supposedly playing her guitar in a subway entranceway last night. It sure looked like another stage set, probably the same one where Joey saw his own picture on the subway VD poster.
I watch everything commercial free thanks to my TiVo except for the Super Bowl and the last episode of Friends (and the last episode of Frasier tonight).
Peace,
ANDEE
Exactly. And that bitching continued right up until 9/10/01. I miss the towers and I miss the people that worked there.
The groundbreaking for the Second Avenue Subway was something like 30 years ago, but nothing ever got built beyond a few useless tunnel segments. I have no doubt that the Freedom Tower will be much the same. There'll be a big ceremony on July 4, with all the local politicians babbling away, but little or no actual construction will follow. Ten years from now there'll be at most some weed-covered foundations.
Our elected officials are tripping over themselves trying to make downtown more attractive and accessible. The LIRR link, the Transit Center, the airport(s) link, etc. I have yet to see any independent proof that the financial industry (or other corporations) are that much interested in downtown. Post 9/11/01 many firms relocated to midtown and/or the suburbs, and they are apparently quite happy in those various locations. We may be getting ready to spend $$Billions on transit links that will be under-utilized and a drain on the fragile NYC/NYS economy for years to come.
Quite true about the lack of tenants. Because Silverstein has insurance money to fund the construction, he has no incentive to time the project to tenant availability. Once built, he'll have every incentive to offer space at cut rates. Although the Freedom Tower is 1,776' tall overall, the commercial space is at lower levels that tenants will be comfortable with.
I have yet to see any independent proof that the financial industry (or other corporations) are that much interested in downtown.
Actually, there have been a number of high-profile signings downtown, of which perhaps the new Goldman Sachs tower is the most prominent. I know of some others in negotiation, which I'm not allowed to talk about.
For projects that take a decade or more to materialize, you need to take a longer view. A lot of the historical preference for midtown arose because of infrastructure investments in midtown, the benefits of which did not appear overnight.
After which I believe it's going to be some kind of weird framework to put it to its full height. At least the greenhouse idea seems to have been dumped. I have less problems with the Freedom Tower after it was redesigned. I despised the original version.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
If it's any consolation, we're unlikely to see an empty Freedom Tower begging for tenants for the simple reason that I don't believe the danged thing is going to get built for many years or even decades. Think of it as a vertically oriented Second Avenue Subway.
I completely agree with your assessment of the Downtown transit links. While Downtown's economy does appear to be improving, with the office vacancy rate on the decline, I have a hard time seeing the area as so bustling and busy that all these elaborate transit projects will be needed. Not to mention the fact that the modest recovery that has occurred has done so despite the same old transit infrastructure.
Aside from the JFK-LIRR rail link, all of these transit projects are improvements to what exists. By your argument, it appears we should never improve anything. Why renovate Grand Central a few years ago? Why rebuild Stillwell Terminal? Let's just leave everything the way it was in 1940.
Not to mention the fact that the modest recovery that has occurred has done so despite the same old transit infrastructure.
So are you suggesting that we should just cancel the whole capital program, and all infrastructure improvements are irrelevant?
Or more to the point: Why do subway riders want to be plagued with overly rotund suit covered suburbaintes straining their infrastructure for a few blocks.
Elias
The city also has plans to re-zone the far west side for office construction. So the same city that is pushing old downtown is also pushing for a new area with more modern buildings with the large floor area requirements that downtown building don't have because they are on smaller city blocks. The city and state should wait and see how the real estate market recovers downtown before committing to these transit projects.
I agree that the Far West Side development is, to a considerable extent, mutually inconsistent with the downtown plans. However, it's worth noting that Mayor Bloomberg is the driving force behind the former, and Gov. Pataki behind the latter. They have a quiet compromise not to rain on each other's parade, but you find Bloomberg quietly in the background whenever there's a Lower Manhattan announcement, and Pataki likewise whenever something happens on the Far West Side.
For my money, it's a no-brainer that the Far West Side projects should be put on ice, and the downtown projects should continue. It makes far more sense to talk about revitalizing a neighborhood that is already a very substantial business district, than to bet on creating a brand new business district where there never was one. Also, the Far West Side projects are funded with smoke-and-mirrors. The downtown projects are already fully funded, except for the LIRR-JFK rail link.
The city and state should wait and see how the real estate market recovers downtown before committing to these transit projects.
It already is recovering. The difficulty with your proposal is that these projects take many years to bring to fruition. Once built, their useful life is 50-75 years, or more. When you're talking about time on that scale, to say "wait a couple of years" is absurd. You also fail to consider the extent to which infrastructure investments facilitate the very recovery you're proposing to wait for.
And lastly, at the risk of mixing metaphors, the train has left the station on the downtown projects. Except for the JFK-LIRR link, they commitment has already been made.
Yawn....
Chicken...egg...
Build something is better than not build something.
Not building creates an inertia of not doing
which forces others to look elsewhere.
Building a Building, a Transit Center, and...
says to peole this is a vital center in which to locate
where people are serious about business
and can attract qualified employees
A snowball starts with just a little snow, and then gather momentem and grows...
If there is no momentum here, there will be momentum somewhere else.
Picture something on the Jersey side of the river, a building 500 feet wide, seven miles long, and 20 stories high, with its own infrastructure all built into it: Fast Walkways, Suburban Transit, parks stores and shops...
A world trade center of enormous proportions, lying on its side...
You can build here, or you can build there, or someone else will build somewhere else.
At the moment.. Its your choice!
Part of why there is a commercial real estate cycle in NYC is that it people have precisely that attitude, but it takes so long to put up a building. If you wait until the market is hot to start building, then you'll be facing a cold market when the building is finished. And vice versa.
CG
(Part of why there is a commercial real estate cycle in NYC is that it people have precisely that attitude, but it takes so long to put up a building. If you wait until the market is hot to start building, then you'll be facing a cold market when the building is finished. And vice versa.)
Exactly right. I was at City Planning in the early 1990s. At that time there was talk of doing some zoning changes to allow more office towers in specific areas of Brooklyn and Long Island City. The pooh bahs decided it wasn't worth doing, because there was no market for office space at the time. When the market boomed, they started the multi-year rezoning process. I think they finally re-zoned what the hoped to be the office area of Long Island City in 2001. They are still working on Downtown Brooklyn.
I also suggested zoning changes in Coney Island, where much of the area would not permit the construction of just about anything (no hotel, no health club, etc.) Why bother?, they said.
I was under the impression that Silverstein needed to win his "two events" claim against his insurers in order to fund the building -- and his losses in the courtroom over the last week have ensured that isn't going to happen.
CG
The insurance money he already has is sufficient to build the Freedom Tower. The loss means he can't start on any of the other 3-4 towers he wants to build, and thank heavens for that. Two big towers without a prime tenant is enough for now. He'll need financing to build the others, and no bank will lend to him without tenants.
Symbolic value means less than practical value. The Second Avenue Subway has tremendous practical value, as it's desparately needed to provide an alternative to the grossly overcrowded Lex. The Freedom Tower's value, at least at the present time, is entirely symbolic, as there are no tenants signed up.
Your premise is probably not correct. Americans spend huge amounts of money on symbolic gestures all the time. The WTC Memorial, which will cost around $350 million, is such a gesture. But in relation to the Freedom Tower, the argument is academic. The public isn't paying for the Freedom Tower, and Silverstein has no intention of spending his insurance money on the SAS.
The WTC provided a broadcast tower and two high viewpoints, one in a restaurant and one on an onservation deck. It also provided a visible center to the region visible from much of it. I want that back too. A tall tower is required.
Symbolic value means less than practical value. The Second Avenue Subway has tremendous practical value, as it's desparately needed to provide an alternative to the grossly overcrowded Lex. The Freedom Tower's value, at least at the present time, is entirely symbolic, as there are no tenants signed up.
Untrue. People aren't very rational, and symbolism wins big. Think about the abominable WTC site cross and how people think it's a miracle, even though the cross is a simple geometric shape that the WTC had hundreds, if not thousands of examples of.
How many tenants were signed up when WTC-I was built?
How many tenants were signed up when the Empire State Building was built.
Buildings take TIME to build: Many businesses that need space today might not even be around when the building is finished.
About the time that WTC-I went up, many other buildings went up in mid-town, and they were all empty. It took a while for them to be populated (are the all filled today, you tell me, I do not know).
Elias
I would agree, but for the fact that lenders today generally won't finance "speculative" buildings. In other words, they want to see commitments from a specific number of future tenants before they'll finance construction. It may be that the Freedom Tower is different because of its symbolic value, to use Pigs' expression, as well as the long time it will take to build. We'll have to see.
You make a great point. The ESB was nicknamed the Empty State Building when built. It did not reach full occupancy until the 1950s, more than 20 years after being built.
Are you saying that this is an "either-or" proposition? Are you saying that if one is built then the other will not be? And what's wrong with symbolic value?
The name "Freedom Tower" with its connotation clearly paints a bullseye on it for future miscreants, a political evocation of that five tower design we saw here on subtalk a few days after the event. I know *I* wouldn't want to put my business in that building as a result of this, and I think future history will bear me out. The name of the structure is one of defiance, and while I understand the psychological need to do it, from a commercial standpoint I think the landlord will rue the day that name was chosen in terms of occupancy. :(
Unless of course, GOVERNMENT becomes the major tenant.
Once again, forgive me for throwing this out here in a reply to you, that wasn't my intent, just needed to be said since no one else seems to be.
The original World Trade Center was a financial dud, and were it not for so MANY government agencies (read that as YOUR tax dollars) going into it in rentals, it would have been empty and Silverstein would have never been interested in taking it off the Port Authority's hands. But I *do* have a big problem with all this "bring it on" nonsense. And call me a romantic skeptic, but to my own worthless little mind, putting back something that looked EXACTLY like what the phuckers took out would have been the ultimate insult to the bastards.
By making an EXACT replica of the original (at least as far as outward appearances go) then there wouldn't be that sign that somehow they managed to get in a sucker punch at a government that was clearly asleep at the switch. But the NAME chosen is absolutely going to impact occupancy and not in a positive way. :(
Yes and no. A private company needs to get that money in soon, since otherwise debt service will put it under. And, like the Empire State Building, the WTC was completed just in time for an economic disaster in New York. So all the government agencies were moved in.
But the space was then available for the 1980s finance boom, and the 1990s 24 hour Downtown renaissance. A white elephant at first, it had become a valued part of the city by the time it fell. And, it was throwing off big profits to fund other Port Authority operations.
The government is supposed to take the long view, but in this case the long view was not as long as had been expected. I wonder if, when you add it all up -- the early losses and the later gains -- the WTC was an economic winner or a loser? It would be a big piece of research, but an interesting one.
I wouldn't use the 90's as ANY indicator of fiscal prudence, it was more like a financial postproduction orgy/party with free Coke for everyone rather than a calculated financial plan. Given the fiscal bust that followed it, along with the massive debt service Shrub's built up so FAR, I don't see anyone having those kind of deep pockets for what Silverstein will have to build with only half the anticipated recovery from the insurance companies.
The way I see it as a businessperson, he's going to need to have 75% of it rented the day it opens to break even and with a STUPID name like "Freedom Tower" and that HUGE bullseye that name paints on the side, I suspect it'll be a Realtor LLC in a few weeks. Assuming of course that Carlton Sheets is the broker. :)
Refilling the building with new tenants was already going to be a challenge. With this name, they might as well have named it "Hindenburg." :(
It seems as if the WTC was a financial white elephant, occupied mainly by bargain-rent-paying public agencies, for a longer period of time than it was a thriving private-sector-occupied development. For that reason alone, I'd go with the economic loser choice, though of course things are more complicated.
There will be a lot of employee resistance. I suspect it will fill up about as fast as the WTC filled up, which was pretty slow. And remember, the Empire State Building took 25 years to fill up without fears of terrorism.
Call it learning by experience. My father spent most of his working life as a contractor, working mainly on modest-scale residential or health care projects in Connecticut. No 9 to 5 jobs for him. He made a lot of money at certain times - except he also lost even more money, and when he died in 2000 he left a completely insolvent estate. I'll take the greater certainty of a regular job with a pension plan.
I personally think the design is very beautiful.
The New World Trade Center (freedom tower) will be a symbol, and a structure, it will be safer than the Origanl World Trade Center (there is a difference in technology between the times) but it will be a strong building, a beautiful building, something to stand out, it's not a regular square building like 99% of all builings in Manhattan. It will stand out, making it more beautiful than it already is. Visit the A.I.A. institute in Manhattan, they have a scale model of it on display with drawings. It looks beautiful when you see it, and it will be beautiful when it is built.
It's fully funded, it's going to get built, they say construction will be completed in 2009-2010. Also though the building will be for the time the tallest building in the world, only 88 floors will be occupyable. Everything above will be the cable suspended wind turbines which will power the building.
So remember, give a building a chance, because like the original world trade center, people hated it at first, but it grows on you, and when the world trade center left, it was held as an architectural, and symbollic powerhouse.
Last time I checked, there was nothing "regular" about 99% of the [tall] buildings in Manhattan. Furthermore, I highly doubt that 99% of the buildings in Manhattan are square. Talk about an architect-in-training making broad, untrue generalizations...
And do we really need something as big a Rosie O'Donnel? Sure she'll eat up space, but what man whold want to go inside her. (sorry, I had to)
Got some news for you, Rosie wouldn't want a man inside her anyway.
Is that supposed to be a Section Eight?
#3 West End Jeff
As Elias noted, every snowball has to start with a few snowflakes.
I still say the best thing you could've done all around was to rebuilt the old towers, but at 200 stories or somewhere in that vicinity. That would stand for perseverance, being relentness, and a slap to the face of every opium riddled terrorist wacko out there.
Well, duh. This is a bad thing? Only for the union.
At least I don't have to flip through pages trying to find the rest of the article. Someone did that for me! :)
Honestly attrition will probably handle it but it would be nice to see that in writing.
The PROBLEM with mass firings is that under civil service law, they MUST abolish the TITLE itself. And in abolishing a title, EVERYBODY goes. PERIOD. I've been through this myself. Those with seniority are entitled to "bump" or "retreat" back to a lesser title that they once held, bumping out less senior members. But if they were planning layoffs, this is what they'd have to do. They would have to abolish "Conductor/Revenue" title and do away with it. They would have to abolish "Train Operator" title and do away with it. Byebye everyone. THIS is why I had my rump in the air years ago when the title "MOTORMAN" was abolished. THAT was the first clue that TWU missed way back when it happened. Notice how undefined and vague the title is now in retrospect compared to the more crisp "MOTORMAN"? :(
So how does a state agency get around this issue? They would have to ABOLISH the "Conductor/revenue" title and PROMOTE the remainder to the "Train Operator" title. Union can't oppose a PROMOTION! :)
OR ... they could do one of the other big tricks ... this too was done recently throughout the state ... "Reclassification of title" ... this was how "MOTORMAN" became "TRAIN OPERATOR" ... this is how "TOKEN CLERK" became "STATION AGENT" ... in politics, a realm of euphemisms, WATCH OUT! When the rearranging of the deck chairs begins in earnest, watch for changing titles ... otherwise, it HAS to be by attrition. Been there, done that, got tired of musical chairs and paycuts.
But my MAIN point is beware of politicians bearing fancy titles. Any "Legal secretary" in civil service who suddenly found themselves reclassified to "keyboard specialist" can describe that painful rectal itch. :)
[JARRING CHORD]
[Biggles holds out two ordinary modern household cushions]
Biggles: Here they are, lord.
Ximinez: Now, old lady -- you have one last chance. Confess the heinous sin of heresy, reject the works of
the ungodly -- *two* last chances. And you shall be free -- *three* last chances. You have three last chances,
the nature of which I have divulged in my previous utterance.
Wilde: I don't know what you're talking about.
Ximinez: Right! If that's the way you want it -- Cardinal! Poke her with the soft cushions!
Ya know, Americans rave over Monty Python, but it’s all derivative stuff. If you want to go to the source, listen to “I’m Sorry I’ll Read That Again” the best comedy show ever which is being repeated on BBC Radio 7 on Fridays. Available on the web live and archived for six days afterwards.
Full Frontal Radio, coming on Radio Prune!
Gee, in most places, all they have to do is RIF people to get rid of them. Title changes are only used, most places, when they want to bring in replacements who have no seniority.
Folks wonder WHY I have so much bile for politicos ... I DID the "Civil Service shuffle" for 13 years of my life ... and my rump STILL hurts from the nonsense. If the taxpayer even had a *CLUE* as to the shaftings ongoing for those of us who naively wanted to SERVE the public and got our just rewards ... oh, the beatings would now commence. But watch - another election year cometh and goeth and we'll re-ELECT the bastards. :(
Productivity, as an economist would define it, is an increase it output per hour worked -- period. When productivity increases, there are benefits to go around -- lower costs (taxes), lower prices, better service, higher wages. The fight is over the share of the gains, not losses.
Yet, the CBCNY etc. use the word "productivity" when they talk about an increase in hours worked with no increase in wages. That's a cut in pay, not an increase in productivity -- if work doesn't increase in proportion to hours, productivity may actually go down. Similarly, benefits cuts are not real productivity increases, though they also reduce costs. Service quality reductions are not productivity. Contracting out is not productivity, unless the private workers are more productive than the public ones. Real productivity is hard.
Now, if CBTC reduces the duties of the train operator, and thus allows OPTO with no reduction in safety (or perhaps an improvement) and no increase in strain on the workforce, that's real productivity. We'll see.
BTW, the TA employed 47,000 people in 1986, and employs 47,000 people today, according to budget documents. At 1.5 percent productivity increase per year, it would only require 34,000 people to do the same work as in 1986.
But that doesn't mean there has been no productivity gain. It may also be that all the productivity gains have been captured in the form of service improvments -- more maintenance leading to better track conditions and MDBF, more trains and buses running, etc -- and that the equivalent of 13,000 people are doing work that didn't get done in 1986. It would be interesting to measure that, department by department, title by title, adjusting for reorganizations. As best as I can tell, based on the documents I have, Car Equipment and MOW did real well, Buses and RTO less so.
Those differences among departments wouldn't be surprising. It's well-established that productivity increases are easier to accomplish in industrial settings than in service businesses. In fact there's some economic rule to that effect, though I can't recall its name. It's my impression that Car Equipment and MOW would be more industrial-like than Buses and RTO.
Yet even given all this modern automation, unemployment is not higher than it was 200 years ago. Why? Because with automation, new jobs appear for those people displaced by the eliminated ones.
Without automation, life would be first toil, then the grave.
You mean it's not that now?
Then again, as the farmer in the Illinois State Legislature said on hearing that state university teachers teach 12 hours: Well, 12 hours is a long day, but it's light work.
Are you sure that you weren't born in a sty somewhere in the Sunbelt? What you say is much too logical to ever come out of a real New Yorker's babbling pie hole.
With automation & OPTO, the TA can:
- run shorter trains at shorter intervals, letting passengers wait less time on platforms
- hire more police
- extend lines
- hold the line on fares
- spend less time groveling for subsidies from Albany & DC
...
You are assuming that the Canarsie Line's CBTC system will pay for itself with either OPTO or ATO. Do you have any basis for such an assumption?
I submit that a cursory analysis reveals the opposite. The last time I checked there were approximately: 50-daily; 40-Saturday and 30-Sunday shifts. That comes to 25 different crews or 50 men, assuming 2-man train operation. If one assumes a very generous burdened rate of $100K per worker, then crew costs for the Canarsie Line comes to $5 million/year.
The cost for the Canarsie Line's CBTC signal system comes to $300 million. That comes to a 60-year payback for potential labor savings, given that the system has no maintenance nor capital costs.
Suppose maintenance and capital costs were each 5% of total cost per annum. The maintenance costs are low and the capital costs are realistic in today's environment with interest rates at historic lows. Then the annual cost for the CBTC system comes to $30 million per annum.
The bottom line is that the TA would be spending $30 million to achieve a $5 million savings in labor costs, each year. That isn't exactly an effective strategy for improving the bottom line.
What your analysis shows is that signal systems are hugely expensive. Perhaps CBTC will bring the cost down.
The ballpark estimate for the cost of a conventional signal system is $500k per signal. There are 24 stations on the Canarsie Line. Let's assume 5 signals per station (3 in the station and 2 in between). That comes to 120 signals. In addition let's place 30 additional signals as timers in the tunnel and other curves and at the switches. That brings to total to 150 signals for each track or 300 for the entire line. The total cost would be $150 million for an entire conventional, replacement system.
The Canarsie CBTC system does not include a full conventional system. Like all CBTC systems it contains an Auxilliary Wayside System (AWS). This AWS is necessary for four reasons: to provide control over switches; to permit non-CBTC equipment to pass over the tracks; to permit the CBTC system to be turned off for maintenace and to detect broken rails. However, this is not a full system. It will provide minimum headways of only 15 minutes, which is adequate for midnight hour service. As such it will contain only three to 4 blocks, based on the end-to-end running time of the Canarsie Line. The AWS does not add $150 million to the Canarsie Line's CBTC system's cost; it is closer to $10 million.
What your analysis shows is that signal systems are hugely expensive.
Yes, they are about an order of magnitude too expensive to cost justify them on the basis of labor savings.
Perhaps CBTC will bring the cost down.
That was the primary objective, when it was proposed. However, the TA's implementation has virtually guaranteed that its CBTC costs will not be coming down. They have painted themselves into a single supplier corner, in a niche market.
I'm not an engineer, but they would have had to replace the switches anyway, they had to build new rooms for the relays and remove the old ones, etc. Much of the cost of a signal system is in the interlockings, which are getting conventional signals. And if there had been no CBTC, automatic signals would have been added on the right of way as well, with insulated joints and cable pulls, requiring lots of work by TA personnel (work trains, flaggers, bus diversions) as well as the contractor. Do you happen to know what the Concourse Line conventional signal job cost, including in-house costs? That would be a better comparison.
In any event, I'm prepared to wait and see. At a comparable point I'm sure everyone with a comparable mindset would have said Metrocard was a waste of time too.
CBTC cannot handle interlockings, that's why they need a conventional block system for interlockings.
they had to build new rooms for the relays and remove the old ones, etc...if there had been no CBTC, automatic signals would have been added on the right of way as well, with insulated joints and cable pulls, requiring lots of work by TA personnel (work trains, flaggers, bus diversions) as well as the contractor.
That does not mean that there have been no technological advances for a distributed signal system in the last 50 years. Programmable Logic Controllers (PLC) replaced hardwired relay logic 30 years ago, even for rail applications. Low cost, high speed serial communications both within wires and via radio links, have reduced the need to pull bulky signal cables between signals to the vanishing point. A meaningful comparison between CBTC and a "conventional" system should take these cost saving advances into account - even if NYCT "engineers" have not heard of them.
Do you happen to know what the Concourse Line conventional signal job cost, including in-house costs? That would be a better comparison.
Signal-wise the Concourse Line is a 4-track line. Any cost comparison should take this difference into account.
At a comparable point I'm sure everyone with a comparable mindset would have said Metrocard was a waste of time too.
I'm still prepared to say it.
They had to reduce the fare for Metrocard to gain any acceptance.
The TA's insistance on trying to perpetuate a per ride fare structure, as opposed to a fare structure based on time has made the system unnecessarily expensive.
(I'm still prepared to say it.)
I'm just waiting for a year to pass to propose (tongue in cheek) that the B and D be returned to their rightful places in Brooklyn.
That's not necessarily true. Savings in the electronics industry results from being able to apply the same technology millions of times. There simply isn't that kind of demand in either NYCT nor the entire railroad industry. It would take approximately 20 phases to CBTC the entire system. That is not a sufficient quantity to see the orders of magnitude cost reduction that is common in the electronics industry.
There almost no "new" technology in CBTC. This technology has been used in other applications. These applications have the quantity that make this technology's use cheap to implement. Unfortuantely, NYCT has chosen not to use existing off the shelf equipment but to have special "rugged" equipment designed for its own supposedly "hostile" environment. Moreover, the rest of the rail industry is not following NYCT along this path. NYCT'S CBTC implementation path is already a technological dead end, before its first installation is operational. So, it is unlikely that additional CBTC installations will be less expensive.
If it fails, then the analysis of the failure will lead to savings in either avoiding those pitfalls (that caused the failure)in the future or passing up CBTC in favor of other technologies.
One has to define "success" and "failure". I've tried to find such definitions in this project's RFP's. Nobody is willing to state these criteria. I would suggest that economics should be one such criterion. As such, I would also suggest that $300 million is a very big bet for a very small marginal return.
Is the NYCT environment really more "hostile" than that of other transit systems, or is this just a bit of (costly) conceit?
PLC's are being used as a process controller in large petrochemical plants. If it acts funny it will endanger the lives of tens of thousands of people, e.g. Bhopal.
PLC's also control machine tools that turn out parts for aircraft engines. Some of these parts cost over a million dollars a piece. Tossing such parts because of a PLC hiccup makes a big dent in a department's bottom line.
There isn't any difference between these PLC's and those that are used to turn out a $5 part. Moreover, the PLC manufacturer wouldn't know how to make his PLC more reliable for such high risk applications. He might invest in more product liability insurance, which would raise the price of his PLC's. However, that strategy does not change any fundamentals for the PLC and its reliability.
Furthermore, hardware intended for rail applications is traditionally built to be very rugged. Consumer grade $#!+ can't cut it here.
"Never use an inexpensive component, when an expensive one will work almost as well." My electrical engineering class was given that advice by the professor of the electronics circuits lab course. He believed that most of us would be employed in designing prototypes. Our task would be to prove something could work. Therefore, we should use over-spec'd components and not have to worry too much about tolerances. He further reasoned that there would be production engineers who would take our design apart to see which components were really essential and by how much.
Today's consumer electronics is damned good. It benefits from that extra production engineering step that is uneconomic to apply to short runs of industrial equipment. Consumer electronics also benefits from stricter EMI requirements from which most industrial and military equipment is exempt.
The best opportunity for economy in purchasing this stuff is for the rail supply industry to partner with the other users of high reliability electronics. (avionics, the military and the medixcal field, among others to develop a standard family of "Hi-Rel" components and modules to save as much money as possible for the entire critical applications electronice community. Domestic sourcing shouild be STRICTLY MANDATORY, from raw silicon to finished devices.
I suppose Christopher Cerf's "Pentagon Catalog" is long forgotten. Welcome to the land of $50 toilet seats and $500 coffee makers. Even the military is somewhat off its mil-spec purchasing spree. The field laptop computers that our troops are using in Iraq are the off the shelf variety purchased from Dell. Whatever our problems may be in this war, using consumer grade laptops has not been one.
I beg to differ. One reason it's a dying industry is that nobody is calculating ROI or payback time for capital investments. (The MTA is also guilty of capitalizing what should be maintenance costs.) The last transit industry product that advertised a short payback time was the PCC.
The question should not be whether CBTC will work or is a "progress response". The question should be how to make use of inexpensive technology that has proven successful in other applications. The TWU does not have much of a problem with job loss, when the MTA's automation solution will not achieve a payback within its usefull live.
One sometimes has to take such cold analytical looks at such "progressive technological" responses. The US did a quarter of a century ago, when it concluded that the SST was not a viable commercial proposition.
NYCT's environment and those of other transit systems is less hostile than many factory floor environments.
I've had to deal with a factory full of welding machines - for RFI and EMI. The power feed wasn't so good either.
I've also had to deal with an atmoshpere of combustible gases. BTW,drilling holes to prevent accumulation of hydrogen in the R142 battery cases, does not meet the National Electrical Code.
Subway tunnels are child's play in comparison.
Even elevated structures are not so tough. Try mounting electronic equipment on the roof of a building in Oklahoma, where the ambiant direct sunlight temperature is 140 degrees.
So what? It doesn't apply. Quoting 90.2.B.1 of the 2002 NEC:
NOT COVERED: This code does not cover the following:
Installations in ships, watercraft other than floating buildings,
railway rolling stock, ......
NOT COVERED: This code does not cover the following:
Installations in ships, watercraft other than floating buildings, railway rolling stock, ......
Yes, but does placing what would be considered unsafe in a stationary building make it safe in a moving one? That caveat means that there is supposed to be a different agency that has primary jurisdiction over such moving buildings.
Specifically, the NEC's regulations discourage venting combustible gases to areas where electrical equipment can generate a spark. That's a reasonable principle, whether regardless of where the gases and the machinery that generates them are stationary or moving. I can think of two passenger aircraft crashes that were traced to sparks from wiring in an atmosphere composed of combustible gases. Following the FAA rather than the NEC did not make the same combination electrical wiring and combustible gases intrinsically safe.
There's a similar case with respect to the Queensboro Bridge. The ASME has criteria for loading on eyebars (which support the Queensboro). These criteria permit less than one third the load than if these same eyebars were placed on a bridge. The ASME handbook is used for building construction.
AASHTO has jurisdiction for highway construction. AASHTO has not heard of tensor analysis and derived their criteria assuming stress is distributed uniformly within the eyebar. I'd submit that the stress distribution within an eyebar do not change whether that eyebar is used in a building or whether it is used in a bridge.
The NEC is not created by an agency. It is drafted by the
National Fire Protection Association, which like the IEEE is
an industry group. The NEC is a recommendation which can be
accepted in part or in whole by the Authority Having Jurisdiction.
For example, the City of New York has an electrical code which
references NEC, but has a long list of specific differences.
Railway rolling stock is not a "moving building". It is a vehicle.
The NTSB, FRA and FTA probably have something to say about
rolling stock construction requirements, including electrical issues.
The NEC simply does not apply here.
I'm surprised with your years of experience in the industry that
you seem to feel that the NEC is the last word on what is or is
not safe electrically. You should know that the code is a balancing
act between cost and risk. If you were to read NEC Digest, you'd
see the battles that are going on now over how stringent things
should or should not be for NEC 2005, for example the debate over
Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters.
The decisions that are reached as to what is or is not acceptable
are based on occupancy patterns, anticipated use, etc. To try
and take Article 500 (Classified Locations) and apply it to
a battery box under a railway vehicle completely ignores all of
the risk analysis that went into drafting that article.
But just out of curiosity, what do you see as the ignition source
for the hydrogen and what remedy would you suggest?
Agreed.
The decisions that are reached as to what is or is not acceptable are based on occupancy patterns, anticipated use, etc.
I'd add one other criterion, which might fall under anticipated use but not in the way you suggest.
Most factories are owned by banks and other financial institutions that hold mortgages or commercial paper. These institutions do not wish to loose their investment, if the building catches on fire. Consequently they reduce their risk by requiring that the mortgagee take out fire insurance. The insurance company similarly wants to guard against losses. The insurance company will insist that the factory operates in a "safe" manner, as defined by the insurance company.
The insurance companies helped set up and finance the NFPA. Because the insurance company's goal is risk avoidance, the NEC code tends to be stricter than codes devised by agencies like the NTSB, FRA and FTA, which tend to be more sensitive to the interests of the industry they regulate.
But just out of curiosity, what do you see as the ignition source
for the hydrogen and what remedy would you suggest?
The ignition source would be any spark or light. Are there any electric arcs in the near vicinity of a subway car?
The path for escaping hydrogen is fairly easy to predict because it is lighter than air. It's going to rise. My guess is that it would leak through the floor into the passenger compartment because the floor is not gas tight. As such any exposed (to hermetically sealed) electrical contacts within the car would be fair game for an ignition source. There is also the recent bane of Boeing, cracks in older electrical insulation. Is all the non-intrinsically safe internal wiring within the subway car placed in a conduit? Not from what I've seen. Finally, a passenger can light a match to smoke (against code).
The most obvious remedy is not to generate any hydrogen. We discussed the battery box problem a couple of years ago. Hydrogen results only when a ni-cad battery is overcharged. It does result during normal charging operations. The TA is using 1900's float chargers for their ni-cads. Not bad for Edison Cells but not the recommended constant source for ni-cad's. There are two easy ways to determine when a ni-cad is completely charged: battery float voltage and battery temparature. The TA can completely eliminate the hydrogen hazard by using a modern ni-cad charger. They would also find that their batteries will last a lot longer.
If coming into post 1950's technology is too much of a change, then there are the standard techniques in the NEC guidelines for electrical wiring and combustible gases. First, one has to separate all electrical wiring from the combustible gas. This means there must be a bulhead around the battery vent that goes to a separate compartment from any wires that go to the battery box. The electrical compartment has to have positive ventilation (with a differential pressure switch that will shut off the car if there is an interruption in the positive ventilation). This will prevent any combustible gases accumulating in the electrical cabinet.
My experience involved consuming (burning) the combutstible gases, so I never had to worry about their disposal. We had flame detectors that would shut off the gas supply, if the flame were extinguished. What follows is speculation.
I might try to create a small compartment and safely ignite any hydrogen gas in small quantities. There would be flashback arrestors to isolate the safe ignition from the hydrogen source. Safely converting the hydrogen to water is probably the safest approach.
Otherwise, one would have to either accumulate the hydrogen for later disposal or vent it to atmosphere along a safe path in what would be considered minute quantities. The venting approach is troubling because of what happens when a train becomes stationary in a restricted space for a long time.
The NEC also has to devise a code that will compensate for the
tendency of tens of thousands of poor electricians or do-it-
yourselfers to do poor quality work, and the tendency of millions
of end-users to abuse electrical appliances.
With respect to hydrogen gas posing a risk, you'd have to analyze
the rate of production and the rate of dispersion. Hydrogen is
only dangerous when it accumulates in considerable quantities and
is in a oonfined space where ignition will turn it into a bomb,
like the Hinderburg. If H2 is being vented essentially into
open air, there will just be a little flash.
Moreover, I'd venture to guess that dispersion happens very rapidly,
even under the car, especially considering the draft that is normally
present around the battery box. The rate of gassing in the battery
is pretty low. The problem with the R142 happened because the
manufacturer made the box too air-tight, allowing the gas to build
up over time and reach a high concentration.
Your point about smarter charging is well taken. I'm not an expert
on battery technology, but I have worked with those ED-80 cells
that transit uses. Although they are Ni-Cd, they don't behave
like the Ni-Cd batteries used in consumer electronics or small
cordless tools. They really behave more like an Edison (Ni-Fe) cell.
In particular, I have not observed a "memory effect" and the cells
stand up well to excessive charging and discharging currents.
I suspect that the difference is in the physical construction of
the cell, the plates, and/or the electrolyte. The electrolyte
is a solution of K-OH in water, whereas the electrolyte in sealed
Ni-Cd cells used in electronics is more of a goop.
The TA's insistance on trying to perpetuate a per ride fare structure, as opposed to a fare structure based on time has made the system unnecessarily expensive.
The word "insistence" makes one wonder: "insisting" against whom? I haven't seen any groundswell favoring "a fare structure based on time." Whatever may be the merits--and I agree there are some--it would require a total redesign of the whole subway system that makes the conversion to MetroCard look like child's play.
I agree that it would need a redesign of the NYC system. In particular, it needs a device to validate your ticket just before your first ride, which prints a date and time on the ticket so that any ticket checker can see if you have gone past your 2-hour limit. Such validating machines are often found on buses in European cities - you are supposed to stamp your ticket just after you have boarded, and the tickets themselves are sold at newsstands, etc. In the Berlin case, validators are also found on the station platforms of the U-Bahn and S-Bahn, which (when I was last there, at any rate) had open access to the stations without fare control. Of course, on systems with fare control turnstiles, these turnstiles could in principal be modified to stamp a date and time on tickets as they passed through.
"The TA's insistance on trying to perpetuate a per ride fare structure, as opposed to a fare structure based on time has made the system unnecessarily expensive"
The European systems I was referring to are also flat-fare. NYC's (and some other American systems) are a flat fare per ride, and before MetroCard you could transfer between subway lines within the one fare, but you couldn't transfer to and from the bus. Now you can transfer to and from a bus within the one fare, but with a limit on transfers (you can't do bus-subway-bus on one fare). The European systems, on the other hand, let you transfer as often as you like within the time limit.
Zonal, variable-fare systems are something else again.
1] If its vital enough to keep trains spaced apart on straight rail, then why can't it work over turnouts. Give some details please.
2] I can't believe YOU are professing that relays can do something better than a microprocessor can.
1] If its vital enough to keep trains spaced apart on straight rail, then why can't it work over turnouts. Give some details please.
CBTC involves communication between trains and a control system. It does not have any communications with the track structure of any kind. It is not scoped to handle interlockings.
CBTC can keep track of which trains are approaching an interlocking. However, it would not have any idea of which way the switch were set.
A conventional block system involves communication between a "block" of track and a control system. The block should know whether or not it is occupied by a train. The block should also know which way a switch were set, if the block contained one.
The CBTC algorithm is great for straight rail. It was never designed for interlockings. Thus a CBTC system must rely on a conventional block system to handle interlockings. If the preponderance of track and switches instead of straight rail, then the CBTC algorithm would not be of much use. However, rail layouts involve mostly straight rail.
2] I can't believe YOU are professing that relays can do something better than a microprocessor can.
You are confusing the control algorithm with how it is implemented. It would be theoretically possible to implement CBTC using relays, just as it is possible to implement a conventional block system using microprocessors. A conventional block system can also be implemented by Programmable Logic Controllers (PLC's) or be hard wired using solid state relays (SSR's) or any combination of relays, microprocessors, PLC's and SSR's. There's nothing in the algorithm that makes one implentation sacred.
This may or may not be semantics.
Question: is it possible to build a complete train control system without any conventional block system?
Spacing on straight track can be handled by the following. Each train knows its current position and velocity. It communicates this information to the control system. The control system responds with the train's next orders. The train can determine its position and velocity from a tachometer and a single zero set reference point. Track circuits are not required for such an algorithm. This is the essense of CBTC.
Spacing on straight track can also be handled by dividing the track into blocks. Each block can have track circuits that determine whether or not a train is present on the block. These circuits can communicate either to a central computer or to the circuits associated with the blocks adjacent neighbors. This is the essense of a conventional block system.
What about broken rail detection? The train cannot detect it. Track based circuits are required.
What about swithces? The train cannot detect which direction a switch is set. Track based circuits are required.
Clearly, a complete control system must take care of train spacing, broken rail detection and switches. This means that a CBTC system must include track circuits to take care of broken rail detection and switches.
To return to the statement by Mr. W.T. Economist, a CBTC system has to include some conventional block system as part of its design. The Canarsie project includes such a conventional system. However, the inclusion of such a conventional system cannot be used as an excuse as to why the CBTC system is so expensive. They are not installing a complete dual system. They are installing a single control system that uses CBTC where appropriate.
Been there, done that.
circa 1995+ the German Federal Railways no longer requires track circuits (and a priori real- time broken rail detection) on its new High Speed Lines. Thus, new lines apparently require only LZB an inductive loop moving block train control system.
What about broken rail detection? The train cannot detect it. Track based circuits are required.
No one's arguing against track circuits for the Canarsie project. I'd personally like to see double-rail circuits, but that's just me.
The train cannot detect which direction a switch is set. Track based circuits are required.
Huh? Track circuits have ZERO to do with proving switch correspondence. Zip. Nothing. Nada. You do know the definition of a track circuit, right? The zone controller located in the switch area just reports open/wrong points the same as it would report the presence of another train.
How can you argue that CBTC is vital enough to stop one train from hitting another, but NOT vital enough to stop the same train from entering an interlocking area?
They are not installing a complete dual system.
Just wait until the Flushing Line contract...
My semantic mistake. I have classified all wayside inputs as "track circuits", as opposed to CBTC signals whose inputs originate solely within the train. Sorry for any confusion.
How can you argue that CBTC is vital enough to stop one train from hitting another, but NOT vital enough to stop the same train from entering an interlocking area?
CBTC can handle any situtation that it has inputs to verify the state of the trains and switches. It does not have any inputs to the state of switches, so it cannot handle that situtation.
Your use of the term "vital" suggests that your argument is based against using microprocessors instead of hard wired relay networks. As I noted earlier, you are confusing the physical layer of how an algorithm is implemented with the algorithim itself.
My objections to implementing CBTC on NYCT has nothing to do with its reliability. My objection concerns cost and the lack any useful benefits to justify its cost.
Once interlockings need to come in play they will be added to the alogorithim faily easily.
the more you post the more it comes out that you have little experience with modern networking and control technologies. The problem you speak of is one that can be worked out faily easily. Have you ever noticed computers can multitask therefore the simple addition of a track switch into the equation would just add and if then else statment into the logic control
If track switch = open then consider trains on both tracks one and 2
else closed then consider track one only.
The switch would be a point along the route where such consideration need to be made by the logic code
What if you have more then two track interlocking
If track switch1 = open then consider track one and track to
else if trackswitch two = open
then proper train movement over the switch
YOUR ARGUMENT IS BASELESS . just because the code is not written does not mean that it can not be done. 10 years ago when the most powerful desktop computer were 33 mega hertz your argument held more merit because the number of opertion cycles was far fewer then what is possible today.
Not if the algorithm prohibits inputs from track circuits and permits inputs from only the train.
The more it comes out that you have little experience with modern networking and control technologies...Have you ever noticed computers can multitask...
I've been working with multitasking operating systems since my PDP-1 days, ca 1963. I've written several cooperative multitasking systems for process controllers dating back to the early 1970's. They were a lot more difficult to write without the benefit of a hardware stack.
If track switch = open then consider trains on both tracks one and 2 else closed then consider track one only.
If you want a slightly more coherent example of how to apply boolean algebra to railroad switches, I suggest you consult Homework Set No. 10, Problem No. 2 from MIT's course: Introduction to Automatic Computation 6.41/6.45, Spring 1966. My contribution, as a Teaching Assistant, started:
"The M.T.A. wishes to prevent collisions of trains at track junctions...Consider the junction on the Beacon Street line just above Kenmore Square..."
10 years ago when the most powerful desktop computer were 33 mega hertz your argument held more merit because the number of opertion cycles was far fewer then what is possible today.
Nobody has suggested that CBTC computers are compute bound. The aren't. As a point of reference, one inertial navigation comuter used for the Apollo had a clock speed of 500 KHz. It was able to perform far more complex and numerous numerical integrations than is required for a single dimension position determination for CBTC. It also did this without benefit of a floating point processor. I guess we were just a little bit more clever back then. :-)
BTW, since you raised the dual topics of multitasking and early microprocessors, what was the difference between the 8080 and the 8080A? Why was this change required for multitasking? Hint, Intel repeated the same mistake as did SDS (later XDS) on their 930 computer, nearly a decade earlier.
I've heard LIMITED backup conventional, ie no block signals.
Maybe the MTA has another reason for doing this.
Can you explain the BLE's stance on remote control engine tech then? It seems inflexible. IMHO, blocking technological innovation through litigation and politics are shortsighted tactics at best.
As a newer member of the TWU industrial union, I feel that any department that doesn't have a 20,000 member voting block like RTO is completely ignored since it can't affect any outcome.
ATO is already in use in a lot of places. The union's leadership can dive in and work to manage the technology and make sure their members participate in its success, or they can continue to deny its existence; if their members lose jobs over this it is the union leaderships' fault.
MTA is moving in the right direction.
Not surprising in view of that fact that Bush's business cronies have been appointed to every administration that is supposed to protect the public from big business excess.
The Bush administration is also systematicaly dimsantling civil service using the (very necessary) HSA as a shield.
-And howzabout that cutting of overtime for anyone making over 26,000/year...
Instead of flaunting their Luddite flab, they should be preparing their members for it and being proactiveto help assure the successful deployment of the new systems and making sure TWU gets credit for helping that deployment.
Wouldn't be the only new tech that has caught them off gaurd.
I heard about transfers between the PATCO and Riverline...so, I went to 8th/Market station...didn't see a thing about it. So, I just bought the cheapest ticket, looking at the map to see if I could find the Walter Transportation Center...I didn't see the name.
I looked, and looked - I knew it was just across the river, and saw the "Broadway" was a transfer point. I wasn't sure, but there was no one in the kiosk to as, so, I took the train over there. (annoying how you have to use change, though).
One important thing to not - they need new cars...BADLY. Those things are SCREAMING 70's...the colors, the shapes of everything, the lack of cab (okay, so they have a dividing wall and curtain...how safe!
So, I get off the train at "Broadway" and find my way to the platform upstairs. Please note that this is the first time I've EVER ridden NJT (except the Corridor Line from Trenton). I had no idea where to get the LRT. There were no signs anywhere, and I didn't want to go out and see that I had wasted my money and gotten off at the wrong stop. So, I just decided to go out in frustration, and found the tracks right next to the building.
I go and buy my ticket...also frustrating. Fast fare - one way ticket. I got out of that menu, and then tried to go through the prompts. Apparently, there is no such thing as a round trip ticket in this area. So, I got a 1 way, then bought a 1 way transfer, and validated the 1 way ticket - I'm glad I didn't validate the other...
So, I wait and wait, then look at the schedule - it would be like a half hour before it came (20 minutes, actually). I was rather irritated, for it was getting late and I needed to get back home before the last Dorado left (the Dorado is SEPTA's 95). I also realized that service was half hourly ALL DAY LONG, including peak service hours...really doesn't get that much ridership, does it? Well, apparently it should, according the the 2 car train that was ding dinging as it pulled into the station.
Now, for the nice points. The vehicles were much quieter than I expected, although you couldn't pass through the middle section. The seats were nice and highbacked, but I don't really like the head support - it was kinda uncomfortable, although it's great to know I had headsupport if the train was ever rearended.
The ride was...slow and unimpressive. I guess it's better going up to Trenton, but, well, i dind't have that kind of time. In fact, my train pulled into the terminal, but the next one wouldn't be leaving for 20 minutes. Heck, I didn't feel like waiting, so I just walked back, following the lines, hoping to catch a bus somewhere...
I got back to PATCO at City Hall, and took it back across the river, it's a nice ride...but undergound all the way, except the bridge.
Anyway, I was kinda in a sour mood from NJT...but I had some chocolate milk to cheer me up a bit....more details on the fan trip stuff on bustalk...let's say I was bitter from lack of visible bus stops.
An experienced transit rider would have had this all figured out BEFORE taking the trip.
I do that all the time when I'm in the WMATA area. I don't usually plan my trips unless I have a specific purpose (such as to ride the 70 or something like that). Today, I was kinda planning to go end up at Olney or something...that never happened, though.
Sometimes it's more fun to just do a random fan trip every once in a while, anyway.
Ironically, a couple of months ago I wanted to check out the line at the "spur of the moment". I was driving around, and I was near the Hamilton train station. I parked there and rode to Trenton. Instead of going directly out to the light rail line, I stopped first to go to the bathroom and then I got a newspaper. In the process, I just missed it. Luckily, there was an out of service car on the adjacent track, so I was able to at least get a photo. However, since it was totally my fault for not checking the schedule (since it was spur of the moment), I din't complain about it.
I disagree. The PATCO cars have one of the best end designs, from a railfan's perspective. I don't know what perspective you are evaluating them from, but as a railfan, the railfan window is great, the railfan seat is even better, and the unobstructed view into the cab is pretty unique. So my opinion is that they should never replace those cars, or just keep building new copies of the same design, as they've already done once (Vickers/Budd).
Sean@Temple
I'm sorry if I was just bashing on the system though...I know my tone was just hating NJT as a whole, but it's just completely different for me to have such little service and confusion in a city like that.
About the only purpose the stop served was for people to get off to go to the park or to the WHYY studio.
This is something new, or you misunderstood. I've passed through the engine/electrical cabinet compartment several times, although it's been 2 or 3 weeks since I've ridden the River Line. The signs that I saw said that you couldn't ride in the center compartment.
The ride was...slow and unimpressive. I guess it's better going up to Trenton...
The speed limit for street running in Camden is 25 mph, same as for non-rail motor vehicles. They do 60 mph between Bordentown and Trenton.
I also realized that service was half hourly ALL DAY LONG, including peak service hours...
They plan 15 minute headways during peak periods soon. The single track with passing sidings (north of Camden) is designed for only 15 or 30 minute headways. They can't run 3, 5, or 6 trains per hour; only 1, 2, or 4 (each way).
The PATCO cars are fine. The Budds are 35 years old and going strong. The railfan seat offers an excellent view.
Single sidings? I hope that the RiverLine doesn't go through the same thing as the Baltimore MTA's Lightrail system...right now they are cramming people into shuttles as they double track the system...what a horror.
The PTC bridge line was closed for renovation on December 28, 1968. Just a short time before that, on August 27, 1968 a separate station was built at 8th/Market for BRS trains. Previously, Bridge and Ridge (no pun intended) trains shared the 8th/Market platform.
The PTC Bridge line opened around on June 6, 1936. The extension from 8th/Market to 16th/15th opened on February 15, 1953.
As for Franklin Square, its operating dates were:
June 6, 1936-July 10, 1939 and May 14, 1976-September 9, 1979.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
The TWU is much too powerful and militant to allow this idea to take hold.
I concur although I do think it will take a bit longer to implement fully than the MTA is predicting.
http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/shuttle/
David
We all know about New York City's fiscal crisis in the 1970s. I have a thought that part of the reason for the 1970s fiscal crisis in the 1970s was the R40-R46 subway cars. The reason that I believe they were part of the cause was that they had many problems. The R40s were not safe and had to be retrofitted with handrails, pantograph gates, extension bars, and safety chains. Then came the R40Ms and R42s. They both had to be retrofitted with pantograph gates. Then came the R44s and R46s. The R44s were poor performers overall and had to get new components. The R46s came and had problems with the Rockwell trucks. They had to be replaced.
All of these things costed money. That money had to be paid by the NYCTMTA. The money for the MTA was partly supplied by the city, I think. This goes all the way back to the economy, causing bankruptcy.
Just a thought for one of the reasons for the fall of NYC's economy. Anybody who would like to comment or state a different opinion or whatever. TIA!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
And then Ford, ALSO a republican, said "drop dead" ... ya just gotta love the irony. Rocks float, Abstinence works, we can spend our way out of a bad economy, we're going to Mars, Rush is *NOT* a drug addict but all the OTHER ONES still need to go to jail. And Jerry Fallwell, UBER coker is NOT a hypocrite. :-\
(guess I'm smoking the WRONG stuff)
They are being set up to be partially new tech.
BTW, I peered out the RFW on a car and laughed when I saw the "don't distract the operator" sign.
People do act so reckless and try to beat the railcars when crossing the same way New Yorkers jaywalk across a car coming close by. Flowering Jack#$@ are what these dumb jerks are, since they have no cosideration for the operator. After all is 5 seconds the price they have to pay in lost time so they can take chances with their lives by running in front of HBLR cars?
And the train operator loses.
When we got to NYP he got out to inspect his train. No Damage.
Not sure as if I can say the same about his pants.
Elias
Believe it or not, the cars do not have the right of way over passengers in that respect. Perhaps you have also noticed that the cars also stop at every walkway that crosses the tracks, passengers there or no? Required on that line and other NJT LRT operations. In order to permit true LRT right-of-way enforcement, there would have to be crossing-style gates at every location that traffic and passengers cross the tracks—and that can get kinda expensive . . .
My name's Joe Gray, reporter with the Associated Press, and I'm working on a story on the subway's anniversary. The focus is going to be the system's effect on the city's culture.
I want to talk to some of you on your view of the subway and its impact on our town. Please respond here on the board or e-mail me privately at MJGray@ap.org.
Thanks,
Joe
I'm Curious,
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Dave really needs to update the track maps, He is missing an entire line!
Til' we meet again,
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen, and his non existant affiliates;
<5> NereidFlatbush and
(6) PelhamBrooklyn
Gather your information fire up your favorite graphics program create an updated track map and submit it to Dave by way of the feed back page for inclusion in the Toronto pages. You might also want to communicate with Michael Calcagno as he is responsible for most of the other system and track maps at world.nycsubway.org.
John
Thanks!
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
wayne
I have the original on vhs - got it for $3 at some place on 34th street...
In 1908, a vaudeville performer named Jack Norworth was riding a crowded Manhattan train when he spotted an ad for the New York Giants baseball team and was immediately moved to write "Take Me Out to the Ball Game". But the ultimate subway sonata came four years after that.
If it wasn't for Jack, I guess we would be stretching during the 7th inning stretch !
Bill "Newkirk"
NYP-Jamaica-Mineola-Hicksville-Babylon-Patchogue-Shinnecock Hills
Finally! Service from central Nassau to the hamptons! There are quite a few trains per day planned to run, about 6 in the morning and 6 in the evening. I think 2 each way are regular trains(these 2 do not stop at Mineola or Hicksville, not sure if they stop at Babylon).
Some questions bout the station and the service:
1. Is this station built at the former Shinnecock Hills site, or at the former Southampton LIU site(which was used last time for the US Open)?
2. How many cars can the platform hold?
3. Will trains terminate at Shinnecock Hills or will they continue to Montauk. If they terminate at Shinnecock Hills, is there a siding for them to layover on or will they park em at Montauk yard?
4. Is there any chance the LIRR may decide to keep this station open for year round service for area residents. Makes sense to me considerin it's already been built(hmm...funny. LIRR builds a high level platform station and adds numerous extra trains for less than one month while Metro North hasn't built a Yankee Stadium stop ever and still doesn't plan on it)
5. What will the destination signs on the trains read? Shinnecock Hills? US Open? Nothing?
6. How long are the trains gonna be? 3 cars?
7. Since tickets will only be collected at Shinnecock Hills, will there be conducters walking around on this train? If so, will they stop me from getting off at Patchogue?
And one question about the old Southampton LIU station. Was this station originally the Golf Grounds station, just renamed?
I can't wait to check out this service. I really hope they keep the new station open year round.
35.00 ROUND TRIP FROM JAMAICA. What are they thinking.
And I think it was the SH-Campus one what was closed. So it should be the LIU one.(To Golf Ground question).
It was also on that art archive site with a photo.
BTW, I think the 35 bux gets u into the open as well, or is the US Open usually free?
CG
I want to go badly to see how they rebuilt the station and such, but the cost is @_@.
NYP-Jamaica-Mineola-Hicksville-Babylon-Bay Shore-PD-hamptons-Montauk with maybe one stopping at only Southampton, maybe East Hampton, and Montauk. Hey, they did nonstop Jamaica to Greenport for some time, why not try this?
Sadly, that's tough for you. Tough because you are too obnoxious to learn something. The purpose of communication is to convey ideas. If you use terms that people don't understand then you are conveying nothing. I only tell you this because you have the makings of a major-league bore.
I've seen people here and on railroad.net using abreviations(some of which are also used for the interlocking). PD, KO, OB, PW, PJ, JAM, NYP, are just a few.
An idea has just occurred to me. There's a well-known expression "Dutch courage" (no offense intended to Dutchrailnut), which means the sort of false courage resulting from intoxication. There should be an expression meaning the sort of false courage that allow one to flame another person because you're on an online forum, as opposed to being face-to-face with the other person. Maybe "silicon courage"?
You do not know me at all. Trust me, I am most definitely not the sort of person who tries to avoid confrontations. I do not hesitate to tell people face-to-face if I am angry with or otherwise bothered by something they've said and done. This includes both total strangers and people I know well. If I were somehow to meet up with you in person, I most certainly would tell you that your treatmentof some people on Subtalk was condescending and unfair.
Hmmm...funny. Isn't this whole discussion b/c of your inability to ignore one of my posts that you had a problem with?
Considering, like I said before, I've read posts both here and at railroad.net that use PD and KO, I think the 2 names are very well known.
Never heard of no JS. I know JE was Jamaica and SJ was Saint James if either of those are what you meant.
I'm sure if Tanger were willing to pay for the construction and/or maintenance of a station, the LIRR would give service to it serious consideration.
There's so little service east of Ronkonkoma, especially on weekends, that a Tanger station wouldn't get much use.
The other one is Shea Stadium.
[I know, it's a cheap joke, but it just had to be posted. :)]
CG
Wonder how much it worth now.
I was wondering about people's favourite underground stations, particularly from an architectural point of view, but not ruling out other factors (I can easily imagine Times Square being high on the list because of its complexity and general livelyness). For myself, I must reveal a certain patriotic bias, because I nominate Canary Wharf on the Jubilee Line extension in London - I still find myself in awe of it every time I enter down that large bank of escalators under the glass dome (it always seems so vast!) Of course, London Underground made a very wise decision to have every station on this section of line designed by a different architect, so most of them are pretty good.
However, I will certainly concede that the new PATH WTC station will be a world beater when opened.
BTW I don't get too much time on the net every day, so please be patient if I don't reply to any of your messages immediately - I will not be being rude!
Downsview Station - TTC
Bessarion Station - TTC
Bloor-Yonge Station - TTC
And the winner is,
Downsview by far.
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Mark
Yes - they *are* nice - the best is Museum, which is appropriately old-fashioned. Although City Rail in Sydney is not technically a subway, these stations have the look and feel of one, with the added feature of double-deck trains. Sitting on the lower deck of a train, you are sitting below the level of the platform of what seems like a subway station.!
Anyway - in London, my favourite is Hammersmith (Hammersmith & City Line) station. A sweet little Victorian red-brick three-platform terminus. Of modern stations, I agree that Canary Wharf (Jubilee Line) is pretty impressive, though actually I prefer its namesake on the Docklands LR, with its high overall roof providing an airy, spacious feel.
In New York, East 180th St in the Bronx (2 & 5 lines) - the entrance building is the old NYW&B station, although the platforms of that part of the station are only used for stabling trains and are not open to passengers. So few NYC subway stations have street-level buildings of any architectural interst, in contrast with the superb platform-level decoration at many of them. So my second favourite in NYC would be the Canarsie Line stations with the great mosaics, like Montrose Avenue.
I could cheat and say Union Station in Los Angeles, now that the Gold Line starts from there, but that's really a mainline station, and is my favourite one of those.
Mark
(I hope my railfanning never becomes so obsessive that it starts to look like a religion!)
But I do love the mission-style stations of Southern CA. San Diego's Amtrak station is another pretty one.
Mark
Union Pacific
Southern Pacific (Now UP)
Atlantic and Pacific (ATSF Now BNSF)
El Paso and Southwestern (Sp Now UP)
Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe (Now BNSF)
Pacific Electric (SP)
LA Street Railway
RTD Buses
Now Served By
Red Line Subway
Gold Line Light Rail
Amtrak Sunset Limted (SP)
Amtrak Texas Eagle (SP)
Amtrak Southwest Cheif (ATSF)
Amtrak California Surfliner (ATSF)
Amtrak Coast Starlight (UP)
Metrolink Commuter Rail
Metro Buses
Orange County TA Buses
LADOT Buses
Torrance Buses
Did I Miss Any?
There are several nice stations on the Wimbledon branch of the District - Putney Bridge is the only station in London I know of that actually feels like a NYC elevated station; East Putney is also high above the street, with its entrance building tucked into the vee between the District Line tracks and the more or less disused chord round to the Southern region line; and of course Wimbledon itself, which is pretty handsome and has the added interest of the Croydon trams operating from platform 10.
An interesting example of British vs. American English - in the United States, "homely" means "ugly."
Yes - the roots of brooklyn reach everywhere..
Also honourable mention to any of the Yerkes terracotta station exteriors.
Mark
Mark
I can only imagine what was found during construction of the Cairo Metro!
Mark
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
wayne
Sorry, couldn’t resist!
I realize that these two stations are not high up on the beauty scale, but they speak to my haunted soul.
I look forward to this choice changing at the end of the month when the new Stillwell Avenue-Coney Island complex begins to unveil itself.
Was there last week - monumentally huge, considering it only serves one metro line and one RER line, and not that many passengers. Grande Arche de la Defense station (like all of the La Defense district, in fact) is also monumental and vast, but with more excuse in that case, since it serves more lines and far more people.
"Southwark, my fave of the Jubilee stations...
I've never alighted from a train there, so I couldn't say
"the perfect round booking hall at Piccadilly Circus..."
Yes - the nicest of the classic central London deep tube stations - the antithesis is that rathole, Tottenham Court Road....
The other Piccadilly - in Manchester - probably qualifies too, since it has the Metrolink LRT trams in its "undercroft", and is a very smart station after its most recent refurb.
[Shudder] I'm with you-- I stayed near to Tott Ct Rd for much of last summer, and would go the extra stop to Goodge St. just to avoid it.
Any other nominees for the booby prize?
Haha! Intentional pun?
Actually, most of the Central Line between Notting Hill and Liverpool Street was, is, and probably will continue to be pretty grungy, just because of the use factor.
I remember LT (as was) doing up the Central Line on Tottenham Court Road, where they just put new tiles over the old. Although the current station looks better, it used to be better: for those of us in the know, the route from the Central Line to the Northern was far faster if you went through the passages that were designed for people going the other way. I never found the traffic volume to be so high that this was a problem.
These stations got a bit of a clean-up and a coat of paint last year, during the time when they were closed owing to the Chancery Lane derailment - a minor benefit coming out of a major problem. They do look a bit better now; Lancaster Gate is probably the least attractive, but it's probably the most original too.
Mark
MNRR: Melrose Station, bar none.
LIRR: Flatbush Ave terminal, if you call that a terminal the way it looks. (That will change for the better soon.)
NYCT: 7th Ave/53rd Street (even Chambers Street looks better than this hellhole).
Peace,
ANDEE
Cite *is* nice, with an original Guimard entrance coming to the surface in the middle of a flower market. But the most complete Guimard entrance of all (complete with awning over the top) is at Abbesses station, on line 12 in Montmartre.
wayne
But having seen the recent book about the Berlin S-Bahn, Berlin seems to have more attractive and varied stations than the rest of the world put together. Hopefully I will get a chance to visit one day.
Nationwide: Any underground WMATA Metro station.
For railfanning or train watching: Chicago's Union Station has the most railtracks. In NYC it's Park Ave at East 97th Street as the Metro-North trains whizz back and forth into the PA viaduct.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
THAT is what I like about this station.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I'll list my favorite station on most of the systems I've been on, followed by my overall favorite. I'll also include some pictures (the cities are in no specific order...):
-San Diego: American Plaza station on the Blue and Orange Lines. This station is unlike anything else on the system, and is very modern.
-New York (MTA): 63rd/Lexington Av. on the "F" line, because I use it often when I am in the city, and love the colours and the uniqueness of the station.
-Philadelphia: This would have to be 69th St. Station (I think of it as Philly's equivelant to Stillwell), as 4 lines serve it, and all lines that serve it terminate here. The yards are also at 69th St, and the station itself is wonderful!
-Chicago: My favorite station is Clark/Lake. This is the largest transfer station in Chicago, and the only station where all of CTA's lines (except for the Yellow and Red Lines) come together. I also love the architecture and the modern transfer built between the Blue and Loop Lines.
-Washington, DC: Although it's nothing special compared to the rest of the system, my favorite station in Washington, DC is Anacostia. I like this station because it's unique in that it has a normal height cieling without the huge vaults. Everytime I'm in DC I try to visit this station.
-Newark/Jersey City, NJ: My favorite station in the Newark/Jersey City Metropolitan area would have to be Newark Penn Station, because it serves commuter rail, subway, Amtrak, bus lines, etc. on 4 levels.
Hoboken comes in a close second.
My overall favorite, out of all the stations I've been in...
As far as design/architecture: Lexington Av./63rd St in NYC. I like this station so much because it has a great design and provisions for future service. All of the colours in the station blend together perfectly, and it is very different from other NYC subway stations.
As far as # of lines/variety: Fulton/Broadway/Nassau in NYC. This is my favorite "major transfer station" in NYC, because it offers transfers between some of my favorite lines, and is one of the most spread out (and confusing) stations on the system; you can walk from WTC to South Street Seaport in Lower Manhattan (a good 6-7 blocks), and pass an entrance on every block, on every street that goes through (specifically John St., Fulton St., others) that route.
Other systems I have been on which I didn't feel like thinking about here:
-Metrorail (Miami, FL)
-Metro (Los Angeles, CA)
-BART & MUNI (San Francisco/Oakland, CA)
-VTA (San Jose, CA)
-MAX (Portland, OR)
-T (Boston, MA)
-T (Pittsburgh, PA)
-MARTA (Atlanta, GA)
-River LINE (Trenton/Camden, NJ)
-Underground (London, UK)
-Metro (Madrid, SP; Paris, Fr.)
-Metrolink (St. Louis, MO)
I think that's it.
-Chris
-Chris
I dont disagee with variety but I find pleasure in there being a common thread - ie: Morden, Edgware and Cockfosters Lines (and Great Central Extension, Rail Blue! )
:-D
This train calls at...
Nottingham Victoria
Nottingham Arkwright Street
Loughborough Central
Leicester Central
Rugby Central
and London Marylebone
I was thinking more of the minor ,almost standardised, stations but the larger ones also had their own family resemblance.
The Leicester and Nottingham viaducts were members of their own 'family' too.
(What a pity they can't extend from Loughborough to Leicester
Central now ! )
I suppose the entrance was appropriate for the neigbourhood. :-) --- Sorry Aunt Julia !
The drain pipe is a nice touch !
Nah, I can think of worse than that. Bordesley station in Birmingham (from Andy Doherty's website).
Eastbound (Up):
1705 all stations to Shirley (arr 1723) - this is the 1700 from Birmingham Snow Hill (runs 4 minutes later on Saturdays, no Sunday service)
Westbound (Down):
0710 all stations to Birmingham Snow Hill (arr 0715) - this is the 0654 from Shirley (Monday to Friday only)
0727 all stations to Birmingham Snow Hill (arr 0732) - this is the 0635 from Stratford-upon-Avon via Shirley (Monday to Friday only)
0748 all stations to Stourbridge Junction (arr 0829) via Birmingham Snow Hill - this is the 0656 from Stratford-upon-Avon via Shirley (Monday to Friday only)
0751 all stations (except Hagley, Blakedown, and Hartlebury) to Worcester Shrub Hill (arr 0904) via Birmingham Snow Hill (Saturdays only)
No Sunday service.
When Birmingham City Football (ie Soccer) Club are at home on Saturdays, extra trains call at Bordesley, 7 in the Up direction, 8 in the Down direction.
mike
Heck, Anacostia doesn't even have a vaulted arch at all, and the underground half of Fort Totten has two arches to match the roof design on the outdoor half.
On the "T" in Boston, my favorite stations are Alewife, Harvard, Park Street, and North Quincy (on the Red Line) and Park Street and Boylston on the Green Line.
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
1]Times Sq in NYC
2]15th St in Philly
3]Metro Center in DC
On a slightly different tack, I would like to say that I think Times Square has the most interesting single feature of any underground station I've ever visited. This is the open connection between the Shuttle and the 1239, where you can actually stand within inches of those passing trains with just a bit of railing to keep you from them.
You just don't get this kind of quirky thing from completely modern systems.
NYCT: South Ferry 1/9, World Trade Center E, Wilson Ave L, Broadway Junction J,Z,L,A,C, All Bronx IRT terminals, Rockaway Pkwy L, City Hall loop 6, Canal St and Chambers J,M,Z, Grand Central and Times Square Shuttle platforms, Queensboro Plaza and Willets Point 7, and 9 Ave D,M.
PATH: Journal Square and Newark-Penn.
NJ Transit: Newark-Penn, Hoboken, Trenton, Atlantic City.
Metro-North: New Haven Union Station, Croton-Harmon, and Marble Hill.
Amtrak: Albany-Rennselear, NY(the original) and Winter Park, FL.
Regards,
Jimmy
1.Smithsonian,Washington D.C.
2.Metro Center, Washington D.C.
3.Times Square, NYC
4.Downtown Crossing, Boston
5.Powell Street, San Fransico
Eole Haussman-St-Lazare Station (Paris)
Kowloon Station (Hong Kong)
L'Enfant Station (WMATA) (Oren keep quiet)
Peachtree Center (MARTA)
Times Square (Don't ask why)
I have been to three out of five: Kowloon (MTR), Eole Haussman-St-Lazare Station (Paris RER E) and Times Square. And find that compare with these three, Haussman-St_Lazare is my best liking.
In The NYCS,
14St Union Square, The Lex
Bowling Green, The Lex
Brooklyn Bridge, The Lex
In The London Underground,
Angel Station, Northern Line
Canary Wharf, Jubilee Line,
Westminster, ? Line
Those are my favourite. Thats all I can say.
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Westminster is Jubilee Line as well - the new part is, anyway, the old sub-surface platforms are on the District/Circle Lines.
Angel was rebuilt a few years back, so that its street entrance is now in a completely different place than it used to be - because the escalators go up at an angle but the old lifts went straight up. At platform level it used to be a narrow island platform, which sometimes got quite overcrowded; a new platform tunnel was built for one direction, leaving the old platform for the other direction. So the "old" platform is very wide, occupying the space of both the former island and the former other track.
1-Brighton Beach (B)(Q)
2-Ocean Pkwy (Q)
3-West 8th st (F)(Q)
4-Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue (D)(F)(N)(Q)
5-Queensboro Plaza (N)(W)(7)
6-Bay Parkway (D)
7-Ditmas Avenue (F)
8-Avenue X (F)
My favorite Underground subway stations are:
1-Grand Central (4)(5)(6)(7)(S)MNRR
2-59th St Columbus Circle-Both (1)(9)&(A)(B)(C)(D)
3-34th st -herald sq-both bdway and 6th
4---B,D,F,V,N,Q,R,W,
5-TimeS sq--whole thing--A,C,E,N,Q,R,S,W,1,2,3,7,9
6-Whitehall St--R/W
7-REctor st R/W
and of course my
8-Dekalb Av-- B/D/M/N/Q/R/W
D to Brighton Beach!!
Getting to what I've ridden now.
PATH: Newark. I hand draw my own track maps, and Newark is complicated, making it fun!
SEPTA:
13th Street on the Market-Frankford Line, Broad Street Line's Olney Terminal, and Norristown Transportation Center (which is part elevated/part surface, but worth mention).
PATCO: 8th & Market. Franklin Square looked like it may have once been nice (a wider version of Walnut-Locust, in the mezzanine's colors), but it's size makes it a bit intimidating.
WMATA:
Green/Yellow Lines: L'Enfant Plaza
Blue/Orange Lines: Rosslyn, Federal Center SW
Red Line: Forest Glen
Green Line: Fort Totten
Orange Line: Ballston-MU
Kenney Riding on Longer SEPTA Line
I think this is a good idea, financial and political obstacles notwithstanding. If they're really smart, they'll build it so it can connect with any future PATCO line serving the 55/Glassboro area.
Mark
Roosevelt Boulevard Transportation Investment Study
It called for a subway with exposed stations to save money, and an extension of the Market-Frankford line from Frankford terminal to meet the new line at Bustleton and the Boulevard.
My fear is that the report is going to sit on a shelf gathering dust an ultimately nothing will be done.
Mark
Roosevelt Boulevard Transportation Investment Study
I love this quote, right here:
"So when I hear the word SEPTA, I get worried about their commitment to any projects in our city and when they'll be completed,"
That's exactly what I think of.
UP TO 2000 passengers may be on a train. in the event of an IMMEDIATE evacuation of a train not berthed in a station
Ok, first answer me: what can two people do?
Suppose there is a fire in the no. 7 car. Is the condutor going to know about it? Is some jerk going to pull the cord and trap the train in the tunnel. Those who as can will evacuate the car on their own some going aft and others going forward. What is the motorman going to do. Until he knows otherwise he is going to stay in his cab. he will communicate with command, but he dosen't know poo about what is going on in the back of the train. First clue the conductor will have is a mob of people coming forward. So what is he going to do? Go to the back and obstruct an evacuation already in process. He can tell the motorman what has happened, but the train is going anywhere. Ain't nobody going to back to that number 7 car to reset the brake. But he know knows that people in the back need to be evacuated. Command can call the follower to assist, but are they going to cut power and leave everybody in the dark, or are they going to let geese down onto a live track?
The conductor is a train operator, not a fire fighter, not a police officer, and not a paramedic. He is not trained in crowd control. I hate to say it, but the facts are that if something like this would happen, there will be deaths. The train crew's best function, their best assistance to their passengers would be to maintain communications, both with control and with their passengers. I suspect that there will be many able bodied persons who will be able to assist people on the train, and who will need minimal directions from the crew.
All of that being said, yes the trains are always better with a crew of two.
Elias
Realistically though, it's a moot point as even the TA doesn't want a combined title. To do so would mean that every C/R, about 3300 of them, would each get a $3 an hour raise.
But it won't happen without a reclassification of title, sure hope the union is aware of it BEFORE the fact. :(
Nevertheless, it is acceptable to favor the project while being skeptical of some of the underlying claims. I am therefore addressing a more limited question: is DEA's claimed 4-6 minute savings per passenger-trip backed up with real data? Note that the lack of data doesn't make the claim false--it just makes it impossible for readers to make an informed judgment either way.
In the DEA, the only numbers presented that could possibly contribute to the 4-6 minutes saved are as follows:
30-60 seconds, because trains need to move slowly through the tight curve of the existing station;
5 seconds to deploy the gap fillers, and 10 seconds to retract them;
A 0.7-minute (42 sec) wait southbound at Chambers Street, and a 1.8-minute (108 sec) wait northbound.
Other time savings are alluded to (e.g., access and egress time), but not quantified, so we have no way to consider them.
Another problem is that the 30-60 second "curve delay" is not allocated between arrival and departure. I find it inconceivable that the train loses a full minute arriving, and another full minute departing, so for now I'm going to allocate 30 seconds to each. If this is incorrect, it's only because the DEA wasn't sufficiently specific.
Lastly, we must clarify over what time period the purported 4-6 minute savings is measured. I believe it covers the passenger's entire commute. This is the way the MTA always measures time savings in any studies I've seen, and it is most consistent with the plain language of the DEA. RonInBayside suggested that it's measured from when the passenger gets on the train, to when he gets off it. To humor RonInBayside, we'll do it his way.
The RonInBayside Method
Northbound
Northbound, the current design imposes these penalties: 10 seconds for the gap fillers to retract; 30 seconds moving slowly through the curve; 108 seconds at Chambers St. The total is 1'48", or just shy of two minutes.
However, the DEA tells us that only 25% of the northbound passengers remain on the train at Chambers. The other 75% don't care whether the train waits there or not. Therefore, the average savings is 10 + 30 + .25*108, or 67 seconds.
Southbound
Southbound, the current design imposes these penalties: 5 seconds for the gap fillers to deploy; 30 seconds moving slowly through the curve; 42 seconds at Chambers Street. The total is 1'17".
However, a significant proportion of the riders will have transferred from the express at Chambers Street. If the express arrives while a local is waiting in the station, those passengers don't suffer the full 42-second delay. From the information provided we can't estimate what the average passenger will experience, but I'll estimate it at 60 seconds. Clearly it should be lower than the northbound savings, since the wait at Chambers is shorter.
Summary
In summary, using RonInBayside's method, and relying solely on the data present in the DEA, the maximum average time savings you can derive is 67 seconds northbound and 60 seconds southbound. This requires some assumptions, because the data provided in the DEA is so poor. Nevertheless, I challenge anybody to present a rational interpretation that of the data that adds up to 4-6 minutes.
The Common Sense Method
As I mentioned in my original post, the MTA is not proposing to eliminate Recovery Time from the route; it is merely proposing to have trains wait at South Ferry, rather than at Chambers Street. Therefore, passengers will still wait in a train that is not moving; the new design just shifts where they wait.
Anyone who has ever boarded a train at a terminal knows that the trains don't always depart immediately, unless one happens to arrive at just the right moment. The DEA doesn't actually say this, but I should hope it's sufficiently consistent with our experience that it doesn't need to actually be proven.
Since the MTA has many two-track stub-end terminals, I think we can rely on our experience to say how the new South Ferry will work. Specifically, arriving passengers will nearly always find a climate-controlled train with plenty of empty seats already waiting for them. That is certainly an improvement over current conditions. However, the average passenger will need to wait a few minutes before the train leaves. This wait replaces the wait that is built into the current schedule at Chambers Street.
Therefore, from the perspective of the overall commute, the northbound commuter therefore saves almost nothing. Indeed, for those planning to transfer to the express at Chambers, the commute gets slightly worse, because those passengers never cared that the local doesn't leave Chambers immediately, but everybody cares while they wait at South Ferry.
Also not considered is the effect on 2/3 who transfer to the local at Chambers. Today, those riders have a high probability of finding a train already waiting for them in the station. In the future, those riders will more often have to wait on the platform, since locals won't wait at Chambers as they do now.
Conclusion
In summary, even using RonInBayside's method, you cannot derive a 4-6 minute savings per passenger-trip from the data provided in the DEA. I challenge anyone to do otherwise.
However, RonInBayside's method finds no support in the DEA and is contrary to the MTA's typical practice in modeling commuting patterns. If you look at the total commute, which is the way the MTA usually does it, and is what most people care about, the time savings as documented almost entirely disappear.
I will stress again that the purported 4-6 minute savings could be real, but the DEA simply doesn't tell us where it comes from.
Also your math is wrong... "Southbound, the current design imposes these penalties: 5 seconds for the gap fillers to deploy; 30 seconds moving slowly through the curve; 42 seconds at Chambers Street. The total is 1'17"."
Not to mention, the 5 seconds for the gap filler signal to clear, and if you're on a train behind it (1 trains bunch like hell at South Ferry) and the time for the signals behind the leaving train to clear, and some trip arms take as much as ten seconds. Just adding a second track can make everything easier. With no penalties. You must take in to concideration the frequency of the trains, time for signals to clear. Remember once that train occupies that block, a train cant automatically enter the block immediatly behind it. Remember the protection distance is usually 2 blocks (around stations it can be a lot less). Without any of those calculations taken into concideration, even your math is way off. We need someone who works and knows signals and all these operations well enough to give us a complete low down on the situation. Including an engineering perspective.
That means David of Broadway cant give me a coy response since he's neither of those....
As I said multiple times in the post, I am relying on the data they actually provided. I have no idea whether the points you mentioned are part of the purported time savings, but they aren't stated in the DEA.
I don't see why this is such a desirable transfer.
After all, if I'm someplace in Manhattan, and want to get someplace in Brooklyn, I'm almost certainly much better off taking the 2 or 3 to Atlantic, where I have a panoply of possibly transfers. And vice versa for getting between Brooklyn and Manhattan.
If I'm on the downtown 7th Ave line, and want to get a Broadway line stop in Manhattan for whatever reason, I could make a transfer at Times Square if I'm starting uptown or in midtown, or possibly at the WTC if such a transfer is made in the new construction. If I'm looking to get to the Financial District, I could simply ride the 2 or 3 down below Chambers.
Frankly I can't think of a few combinations other than a few low-use stops (i.e. getting from Rector on the 1 to Lawrence on the R/W, for example), for which this transfer would be superior to existing transfers.
And why is this connection needed? Can't the MTA simply implement free transfers, so you don't pay and extra $2 when you swipe in at Whitehall, if you've already swiped in someplace else?
Currently, first the S Ferry passenger waits 2 minutes on average for a train (assuming 4 minute headways). Then they wait another 2 minutes at Chambers. With the stub terminal, they'd only have the first 2 minute wait.
Also, some posters have said that the southbound trains stop for several minutes at Rector St to herd passengers into the front 5 cars. If you insist on doing that, rather than letting the geese head right back north to Rector again, you do save another few minutes there with a full length terminal.
5 seconds to deploy the gap fillers, and 10 seconds to retract them;
Hmm, any idea why it is longer to retract them than deploy them? I've made several observations of the Union Square fillers all the time and it always puzzles me. Not to mention some of them aren't in good condition. Aren't there any plans specified in the MTA's labyrinth Capital Construction plan listings on their website allotting funds to replace them?
If this is incorrect, it's only because the DEA wasn't sufficiently specific.
Does it need to? I mean, I question whether the MTA posts this information to in-depth analysts like yourself and expect to doubt the inconsistencies and lack of sensitive data...but I agree with you there.
RonInBayside suggested that it's measured from when the passenger gets on the train, to when he gets off it. To humor RonInBayside, we'll do it his way.
Save Ron the trouble. I do agree with you that his assessment about measuring purely that time frame is a poor one. Considering the complexity of some stations (like Times Square) and the simplicity of others (countless examples). In any case, it would be unwise to omit that sort of data.
Northbound, the current design imposes these penalties: 10 seconds for the gap fillers to retract; 30 seconds moving slowly through the curve; 108 seconds at Chambers St. The total is 1'48", or just shy of two minutes.
This may seem like an irrational query, but does the train slow considerably before the curve because of signals and timers or 'just' the fact that it's a curve?
However, the DEA tells us that only 25% of the northbound passengers remain on the train at Chambers. The other 75% don't care whether the train waits there or not. Therefore, the average savings is 10 + 30 + .25*108, or 67 seconds.
How do you determine those percentages? The data extrapolated: is it located within the DEA?
Nevertheless, I challenge anybody to present a rational interpretation that of the data that adds up to 4-6 minutes.
You have me there. I don't recall the times I've ridden through South Ferry to be long at all. Dwell times from my observations were certainly under a minute.
As I mentioned in my original post, the MTA is not proposing to eliminate Recovery Time from the route; it is merely proposing to have trains wait at South Ferry, rather than at Chambers Street. Therefore, passengers will still wait in a train that is not moving; the new design just shifts where they wait.
How unusual.
Anyone who has ever boarded a train at a terminal knows that the trains don't always depart immediately, unless one happens to arrive at just the right moment.
I disagree. I am a frequent Flushing rider and while this happens sometimes at Main Street, it certainly isn't standard procedure. Then again, the people at the assigned towers there aren't exactly the smartest kids in the block...
Since the MTA has many two-track stub-end terminals, I think we can rely on our experience to say how the new South Ferry will work. Specifically, arriving passengers will nearly always find a climate-controlled train with plenty of empty seats already waiting for them. That is certainly an improvement over current conditions. However, the average passenger will need to wait a few minutes before the train leaves. This wait replaces the wait that is built into the current schedule at Chambers Street.
So in other words, any chance of recovering time is mitigated, correct?
In summary, even using RonInBayside's method, you cannot derive a 4-6 minute savings per passenger-trip from the data provided in the DEA. I challenge anyone to do otherwise.
I find your assessment to be the most realistic. Something is indeed up.
In any case, as your subject line implies, have you made of any application of actual mathematical formulas to calculate anything in this regard? Nothing incredibly important; just minor curiosity.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
The gentelman in question was a military officer.
All military personel are fingerprinted.
Undoubtedly *my* finger prints are in that database too...
If the Navy saves such things from the 1960s.
I have not been fingerprinted since then.
Elias
In Virginia, that's true of all lawyers as well (don't know about Oregon).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/20354.htm
TA OFF-TRACK ON TERROR: EXPERT
May 7, 2004 -- The MTA could be doing a "faster and cheaper" job of protecting the subway system from a terror attack, and has failed to focus on the system's most vulnerable spots, such as the East River tunnels, a former transit engineer said yesterday.
"The only thing they are worried about are specific stations, not tunnels and signals," said Mel Levy, a retired engineer at the Transit Authority, which runs city buses and subways. "They're not focusing on places where the most damage can be done."
Levy, 72, who worked with the TA for 35 years, said he was troubled last month when he learned the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, the TA's parent agency, would be spending $100 million to develop a security program.
"This process will take time - and there is no time," he said.
Levy said he contacted the TA last month and offered his services for free, but never got a call back.
"I don't need a job," he said. "I just felt it was my duty to help."
MTA spokesman Tom Kelly said shoring up the agency's infrastructure is "not something that can be done in-house."
Levy, who has identified several "vulnerable spots" in the system, said one way to protect tunnels would be to bolt subway windows shut. "That would stop anyone from tossing a bomb into a tunnel from the train."
Clemente Lisi
Uhhh... how about the end doors? Duh.
And why can't it be done in house... no easy way to write it off?
NOTHING happens in transit unless Senator Al gets paid ... EACH time. :(
With advanced thinking like locking the windows, I can understand why the powers that be never called him back.
*cursing*
--Acela
It's a shame the O.P. can't tell the difference between SubTalk and a railfans' off-topic forum.
There, my rants done.
On another off-topic subject, i'm sitting here because I just realized what I was going to do today isn't 100% accessible on weekends as this one bus is only on weekdays, and I don't want to illegally park to check out these boardwalks. So what should I do instead? :(
It would seem that a Queens/Bronx line would make as much sense as the IND Crosstown line, yet I've never seen anything suggesting that such a line was ever proposed.
Anyone know why?
I'll never forget the first time I found the Flushing line....I thought the R12/14's and R15's were very weird cars, especially the 15's with the porthole door windows. The shade of dirt on them was different than the rest of the subway system. And the "sideways toilet seat" hanging from the front corner of the lead car on every train....strange stuff, when you consider one grew up with the "mainline" IRT and IND in the Frodham section of the Bronx.
No offense - but growing up in Queens the ONLY two reasons I ever went to the Bronx for was to visit the Zoo and Yankee Stadium ;-)
No offense - but growing up in Queens the ONLY two reasons I ever went to the Bronx for was to visit the Zoo and Yankee Stadium ;-)
No No! I remember the Bronx very clearly...
We had to drive through it to get to grandma's place in Irvington.
I always wondered who lived in those big apartment buildings, or rode on those subway trains.
For me the added third reason was to go to high school for three years. Q44/Bx22 or X32....I better stop before I have to go to BusTalk.
Where should I put the barf bag Fred?
David
Well, that's 2/3 of the Mets' Bronx fanbase... gee Fred you sure get around :)
The (G) is nothing to sneeze at. It's ridership is low compared to the rest of the system, but go and compare it to systems in just about any other US city. Also consider the uproar over the shortenning of the line to Court Square. I didn't aggree with them, mind you--the (V) plan is every bit worth it when you consider that it helps a lot more people than it hurts. Yet those affected negatively are still a very sizable minority.
Were it not so expensive, a Queens-Bronx subway would be a very good idea.
There's a strong possibility I'll be using the (G) very often soon.
---Andrew
I doubt a subway line would ever get built or looked into. If/when MN starts NYP service via the New Haven line, they should just add a few stops in The Bronx and in Queens.
That's presently the plan. At least, with the option of adding a stop at Sunnyside in conjuction with the LIRR station proposed there:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/planning/psas/overview.htm#DEIS
I say they just re-open all the old stops between New Rochelle and Queens, and then have Sunnyside built as well. Hmmmm.....maybe reopen Winfield as well....
And I love their signage:
No Radio Playing
No Drinking
No Tuna Draining
Living in Flushing, I sometimes wish there was a faster way into Brooklyn without going through Manhattan. There is the (G), but it doesn't provide any good transfers to the BMT lines in Brooklyn, and the (G) is a pain to get to from the (7).
And then into Staten Island for a REAL crosstown line.
Living in Flushing, I sometimes wish there was a faster way into Brooklyn without going through Manhattan. There is the (G), but it doesn't provide any good transfers to the BMT lines in Brooklyn, and the (G) is a pain to get to from the (7).
Later Evenings and Weekends its just a transfer at Roosevelt/74th st
That would work. But perhaps by a string of coincidences, the last three times I WANTED to take the (G) at Roosevelt Avenue, there was a G/O that stopped the (G) at Court Square.
Yes I was actually suprised to see a G at 71st Continental yesterday as I rode in on a Manhattan bound E train. I think those G/O's are just money saving tactics. Last weekend they had a G "shuttle" which only ran from Hoyt-Schermerhorn to Court Square. (Between the 2 stations of which there is no overlapping service) But then again I believe the F was running express from Jay st to 7th Ave. So That could be why Hoyt was the terminal for the G that weekend.
The G can only use the upper level at Bergen, while the F can use both. So any track work that closes off the upper level requires the G to be cut back to Hoyt.
I do take a bus to get to the (7), but I have an unlimited MetroCard.
But still, the (G) is so close to Manhattan at that point, that it's not worth it to bother transfering there. Especially with no good transfer points in Brooklyn, except to the (A)(C)(F) and (L).
There is no where near enough demand for a Bronx-Queens train. The Bus can handle that demand just fine, thank you.
If there had been a direct subway connection when I lived in Elmhurst I would've gone to the Botanical Gardens or the Bronx Zoo more often. I don't doubt there are others who feel the same way. Especially lower income folk, not only for visiting the attractions, but for visiting family and friends, etc.
I accept the fact there really isn't enough of a demand to build a Queens-Bronx subway, yet I can't help but think that "if they build it, they will come".
Yes, people would use non-Manhattan-centric lines, but the issue is whether there'd be enough of them to make the lines even remotely viable. It should be evident from the underutilized G that demand for service of that sort is fairly limited. Yes, that's a raw deal for many people, such as the woman in the Times story or your own family's aide, but no transit system can be everywhere.
Looks like there are ceveral options across the Whitestone Bridge. Two or Three Buses ought to do it. Looks like frequent service on those routes too.
The thing about mass transit is, you need a mass for it to be economically sensible. I'll bet most of the G train riders are people who change to go to Manhattan.
BRT is a good option for crosstown service.
Buses on a variety of lines can merge onto a central BRT line, increasing its value. If you are going to get value from LRT, you need a whole trolley network system feeding into it, as in Europe.
We figure that a car costs 31 to 36 cents a mile to operate, It will be much more in NYC, as your insurance and parking costs will be much higher than they are in North Dakota. So, figure that a six mile trip will cost a minimum of $2.16.
Spaking for myself, I have never enjoyed driving in New York City, and even when I did have a car, I only used it to drive OUT of the city.
Elias
See, I disagree. I've always enjoyed driving in NYC.
If I could take a route that connected to all the Southern Brooklyn lines, (Bay Ridge, Sea Beach, West End, Brighton, Culver, in addition to, Nostrand(perhaps), New lots, Carnarsie, ETC. Im pretty sure it would be used.) I'd say Maybe along Kings Highway, Rockaway ROW, Van Wyck Expressway, with an extention into the Bronx Crossing all the lines there, and an extention to the SIR. The route of the G isn't very useful.
Please don't attribute things I never said to me.
I was amazed to see the pictures of the 7 line in Woodside when it was first built. It went through the middle of nowhere. Maybe a Queens-Bronx subway would spur development in the Bronx. I'd build a combination vehicular/subway tunnel from the end of the Cross Island Parkway to the end of the Bronx River Parkway. Piggyback them and maybe the costs won't be as bad. Cars/trucks on the upper level and subways on the lower level. Connect the subway to the 7 in Queens and the 2, 4, or 5 in the Bronx.
The 7 spurred development in Woodside only because the other end of it was where people would want to go.
Since this would not extend the range of the subway, such a thing would not happen.
Also, many parts of the Bronx and Queens are low-rise -- a subway might encourage greater density as well as retail development.
A subway to Manhattan would. A subway from Bronx to Queens would not.
Finally, it would help get people out of their cars.
It would not, since this subway would not serve all origin/destination pairs like a car does.
[You replied] Since this would not extend the range of the subway, such a thing would not happen.<<
A ridiculous comment, since many people surely decline to take jobs in different boroughs because they cannot get from on to the other in less than 2 hours by transit. Besides, the city is trying to encourage commercial development in the outer boroughs, like Jamaica, Red Hook, the Hub. Why shouldn't people all over the city be able to get to these potential job generators quickly and cheaply?
I'm not into time, man.
I'd like to hear some engineers chime in on that one.
I would think the Hell Gate bridge would be a more likely choice.
And don't think the G is the exception to the rule. Look at how the TA has crapped on that line, reducing it to a footnote on the subway schematic.
You have to recall what the IND theory was: Locals stayed on the east side of the river, and the Express trains went to Manhattan. The HH train was to be the same but by the time the Fulton Street Lion was prowling they had already come to rethink (if not regret) their decesions.
As for *my* plan, well it is the same sort of: All trains from the borrows are express in Manhattan, and no Manhattan Local leaves the island. Obviously that cannot apply to existing infrastructure, but that is how I planed the Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway... Sort of. I had to rethink and renig on my plan when I eliminated a southern terminal in Manhattan: Local trains *do* go to Brooklyn, and *do* enter Queens and the Bronx, but they do not go very far into those borrows. On the Brooklyn side they *do* go all the way to Jamaica Center.
Elias
And don't think the G is the exception to the rule. Look at how the TA has crapped on that line, reducing it to a footnote on the subway schematic.
You have to recall what the IND theory was: Locals stayed on the east side of the river, and the Express trains went to Manhattan. The HH train was to be the same but by the time the Fulton Street Lion was prowling they had already come to rethink (if not regret) their decesions.
As for *my* plan, well it is the same sort of: All trains from the borrows are express in Manhattan, and no Manhattan Local leaves the island. Obviously that cannot apply to existing infrastructure, but that is how I planed the Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway... Sort of. I had to rethink and renig on my plan when I eliminated a southern terminal in Manhattan: Local trains *do* go to Brooklyn, and *do* enter Queens and the Bronx, but they do not go very far into those borrows. On the Brooklyn side they *do* go all the way to Jamaica Center.
Elias
Consider that there is only one Brooklyn-Queens crosstown line, and that doesn't do too well off-peak.
Well, as a Queens to Brooklyn lion, it surely is a bust, but if you actually *live* in Greenpoint, then it *is* an important lion!
What about the AirTrain? That doesn't go anywhere near the CBD, yet seems to work because it connects several important destinations.
If a Bronx/Queens line were to be built, how about some kind of connection directly between the Bronx (and/or Harlem and Washington Heights) and LaGuardia Airport? From there the same line can be extended down to connect to the IND and IRT in Queens, and possibly farther. A 125th street crosstown comes to mind - it doesn't go directly from the Bronx to Queens, but it shortens potential transfers for such trips.
I believe I said "crosstown line". A, J, M and Z are not crosstown.
What about the AirTrain? That doesn't go anywhere near the CBD, yet seems to work because it connects several important destinations
AirTrain is not part of the subway system, does not enter Brooklyn, and charges a premium fare.
Maybe an LRV ala the NJT RiverLion. Since it *is* a circulator, let's cut the fare collection crap, and just presume that the fare is collected on a connecting bus or subway.
Thats a nice route. what does LRV stand for?
Light Rail Vehicle.
Yes, a glorified Trolley if you wish. Something like the NJT River Lion would work quite well. Remember, I am doing street running with this route across the Whitestone Bridge, so it cannot be a subway route.
For an LRV to work better than a bus, it must have a (somewhat) dedicated ROW. Elimination of parking lanes can give it this. Putting the Northbound on one street, and the Southbound on another can lessen the impact in the neighborhood.
NJT's River Lion seems to run either end forward, I like running mine through loops, so the same end is always at the front. This allows for all passenger doors to be on the starboard side of the train, and allows for better seating accomodations on the inside (according to me).
Again, since this thing feeds bus and subway routes on either or both ends of a passenger's journey, I have presumed that the fare will be collected on that vehicle, and so have made no provision for fare collection on this one.
Elias
Way ahead of you Check it.
Way ahead of you Check it.
(Fixed the link, sorry)
:-) Andrew
With the exception of the G, every line in the system is designed primarily to get riders into Manhattan. This is not to deny that many of the lines have other uses, but the system's core purpose is to connect the outer boroughs to Manhattan.
As we all know, the G is exceptional, but it has lower ridership than any other trunk line. By today's criterial, it wouldn't get built. Even in its time, I think the G was intended to be a feeder to Manhattan-bound lines, which would have been more apparent had the Second System been completed. It also serves Downtown Brooklyn, which has probably the city's heaviest commercial/civic concentration outside of Manhattan. At the time the line was built, Downtown Brooklyn was even more important.
For a new subway line to make economic sense, it needs to attract many tens of thousands of riders per day. I don't see any evidence of such demand for a Bronx-Queens direct line. Yes, of course there are people who take such trips, but it's not a popular commuting pattern on anything like the scale that would be required to make this an economically realistic idea.
I'm going to be in town next Wednesday for a job interview in far lower Manhattan (south end of Whitehall St.), and I'll be returning to JFK at around 7 or 8 pm. What is the quickest way to get to either Howard Beach or Sutphin/Archer? I'm thinking the 2/3 at Wall St. to the E at 42nd, but I'm only guessing...thanks in advance.
However when waiting for the train, you MUST make sure that the train destination states FAR ROCKAWAY or ROCKAWAY PARK.
Overall though, I think the fastest route MAY be A to Howard Beach. Like Far Rockaway A Train said, make sure it is the A to either Rockaway Park or Far Rockaway.
I think you might also be able to get the J/Z to Sutphin from downtown(J/Z stop at fulton, right?)
Not to bust anyones bubble, but its Sutphin Blvd. 8-) Queens, the borough of Boulevards.
Earlier than that it was Rockaway Road.
Make sure you get an A train running to the Rockaways, not one running to Lefferts. Rush hours, there is one every 10 minutes or so. Either Rockaway Park or Far Rockaway will do. Exit at Howard Beach and take the A train.
I suggest you improve your English skills by learning some grammar and punctuation, because I can't understand what you type.
til next time
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
-Chris
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
What's good for the goose is good for the gander :) LOL
My Killfile is reserved for trolls, posters who are "selling it" and known flame throwers. Also those who come her simply to post trash in its various modes.
You don't just get put there, you have to earn it.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Do you consider me a troll?
And what is a troll?
Literately challanged, are we?
Pigs didn't send me links to the others.
What's the deal mikey? Is it personal
Duh, of course it's personal crusade to stop your brand of vicious cruelty. Whatever you have been smoking I'd cut back, because I think its causing memory loss.
And I'll never send you another link again.
This is addressed to you Boogaloo, a Lexicon is also called a dictionary. Please look it up there.
thank u in advance.
For more, click here.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
GIVE FAIR JUDGEMENTS! I swear if one of you give a b/s reason...
KEEP ROLLSIGNS ON THE CARS!!!!!LCD/LEDs are a downgrade
Da Hui
Regards,
Jimmy
WOW youre optimistic brian. I think that 10 less will be the max.
til next time
I prefer the R143's front over the R110B. The R110B's front is too cluttered with rollsigns and displays, and the black panels are separate. The R143 has a single black panel that extends over the end of the car, and the end would be less cluttered if they didn't put the American flag sticker on it!
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
Maybe if Alstom or MK rebuilt it, it can have a second life. Of course it first life (to be a test for the 143) is over.
Uh no, they are back in service dude (at least some of them). Check it out, yo.
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
Hell Yes!
It's like a modern looking R-46 or something. The R44 and 46 scream "I'm getting OLD!" with their rather bland front ends. But the R131 looks like a longer R143 (which looks stubby to me) what with the black mask on the front end (yet it's less black than the R143, so it's cooler). Also the R131 has GTO electronics, which I'd be willing to bet would give them a cool sound compared to the Alstom Onyx that we've come to know in the New Tech cars.
Also I like the implications that the side-mounted rollsign area has. A laptop-style LCD display could go in there and be capable of displaying any given symbol with the utmost clarity.
For me, beauty is cleanliness and working HVAC.
-Julian
The R110Bs looks a lot better than the crap they gave birth to. The lighting fixtures were a breath of fresh air, a great departure from the "flourescent tubes behind plastic" treatment. The tile decals were cheesy but broke up the plain walls. And I really liked the partitions next to the doors.
Always did enjoy riding (and viewing) that car.
There was another memorable experience that day - seeing an uptown express roar past 81st St. in full flight. Now THAT piqued my curiosity!
Regards,
Jimmy
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-- Ed Sachs
I would have to say the fourth of July 1976. Battery Park was so crowded that I am surprized that the island didn't tip over.
The closest we could get to an open subway station was Canal Street.
I would have to say the fourth of July 1976. Battery Park was so crowded that I am surprized that the island didn't tip over.
The closest we could get to an open subway station was Canal Street.
Yeah, I recall a train like that in the early 1980s on the West Side IRT. Summer, no air conditioning.
A similar experience was had on an "A" train (R38 #4031) in 1998 (minus the sick passenger); when we arrived at Hoyt Street station, passengers were spilling out of the port side doors and fighting amongst themselves.
wayne
wayne
wayne
J
Da Hui
DUH!
wayne
Da Hui
BTW, why run to Prospect? Simply run the M to 9th Ave to avoid most confusion.
The slants don't have the door controls in the T/O position either. I've had to wonder about this, regarding my ideas in the past of running eastern division service through Chrystie up either 6th Ave. or even 8th Ave. The 32's and 38's have door controls in the T/O position, so the C trains do have the conductor in the middle of the 8 car consists. So I would imagine the boards are all set up for that, and the 143's could run up there without any new board needed. whereas on the eastern div. itself, new boards were needed because the conductor position is three cars from the south, never the fourth car. Perhaps this is one reason they don't bother sending he eastern div. up the IND. New board would be needed for it, or they would have to do a major car swap to run 32's and 38's on the service.
So I wonder, what did they do in the old days when 40/42's used to run up there? Were all trains 10 cars I'm sure the old AA/B wasn't. 42's even appeared on the C for the Statue of Liberty centennial. So then were they 6 cars? Od did they have 8-car boards for both car types? Or did they have only for 40/42 positions, and conductors in 32 and below cars had to be 3 cars from the south so it would he uniform?
I'm not sure about the Eastern div. in the pre-GOH days. I know what they do now. But is what you are suggesting that there is a red and yellow board on the IND for the 40/42's?
D to Brighton Beach via Brighton!!
M to Prospect Park via Brighton!!
Q to Brighton Beach via Brighton!!
FRIDAY, 10 PM AT CHAMBERS STREET FOR THE VERY FIRST M TRAIN IN OVER 18 YEARS GOING BACK ON THE BRIGHTON LINE
I will be there for this one, and if time permits at Prospect Park, let's go on the Frankie and hit the 2245 from Franklin that will be laid up through Malbone tunnel and discharged on the soon-to-be-Coney-Island bound platform side.
:-D"
Neither can I
Any chance the M would run R143 on this GO :p?
Da Hui
D/M/Q to Brighton Beach!!!
B/W via West End once again!!!!!
Posted by Craig Allen on May 07, 2004 at 17:09:48:
Congrats to my colleague Todd Glickman. As of May 5, Todd has been with News88/WCBS88/All-News88/Newsradio88/WCBS880 filling in for Norm MacDonald, then me for 25 years.
Ask him about all the anchors and all the jingles and promotions he's been through; he's got 'em all on tape (anyone remember the weather guarantee?)
Here's to many, many more years for all of us.
OK, I’ll bite: what was the weather guarantee? (Yes, we guarantee you are going to have some weather today!–or what!?)
Someone correct me about it. I was always a 1010WINS Listener.
-William A. Padron
["The R-10 Pyramid"]
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You must look good for your age, Todd. Unless you can tell me how you got the job while still in college, I'm going to have to up it by a decade.
Regards,
Jimmy
And a special thanks to all on SubTalk who have contributed to Transit and Weather Together by giving real-time snowfall reports during storms!
I said QUALITY people who ALREADY have knowledge. You are describing many new posters on SubTalker that I don't consider "quality."
Do not deny future generations.
I'm not.
You nay be a talented photographer but you have no clue on how to build a web community.
Thank you. But if you think that having the weatherman on the radio plug SubTalk once in a while is a logical and effective way to obtain quality new SubTalkers, you are WRONG, DEAD WRONG. And you obviously have no idea how the world works. Or how to build a web community.
Of course, you have plenty of tools to help you out, the two biggest contenders being Infopop's UBB and Jelsoft's vBulletin. I am a bit partial to the latter if I ever choose to start my own community though the financial investment will be a bit hard on the pocket.
There are some here who haven't learned the pleasures that can be theirs and all they have to do is be nice !
I have been asked when am I going to do another "Field Trip" to the Beaches of Rock & Long ? Well, I need to call the Turquoise and see if they are open yet. Plus the sand needs to dry out a bit more so we can play volleyball
Peace,
ANDEE
All the quality people with knowledge that have computers
See, I said QUALITY people with KNOWLEDGE. You are talking about people who don't yet have knowledge.
There is nothing wrong with bringing the unknowledgeable here, as long as they don't cause trouble. One of the main function of this forum is to give knowledge to those who don't know so they will become knowledgeable themselves.
The problem is when the ones who are knowledgeable think theyre better than everyone just because they know alot (or have been given the illusion that they know alot) and are snotty about it.
And before anyone points this out, yes I am guilty of this myself, and I do apoligize for it.
You are incorrect. I am slightly acquainted with a guy who actually writes GOs for NYCT and is interested in the subway system more than just as a job, yet does not participate in Subtalk. He certainly has a computer with internet access.
The real issue at hand is the lack of active moderation. I believe you and American Pig have advocated the Rub Board as an alternative, yes?
Yes, I remember reading previous threads on the matter.
This campaign must fail or SubTalk will die.
I don't think it will, John. I'm sure their intents are good and they want to ensure the fabric of SubTalk's community is not disturbed but better protected under moderation.
There are many moderated boards including the Rub Board. Those who wish to do so may participate. I don't see any stampede over there.
Perhaps there needs to be an official announcement or something. Once posters see the appeal, they will go.
WAKE UP!!!, your agitation is MOST UNWELCOME
Huh?
I would enjoy seeing you register for the Rider Diaries.
I think I may have registered over there once, but seeing how absolutely ridiculous the people are over there (absolutely no knowledge of the system) that I decided not to hang around there at all.
Trust me, the silliness over there isn't any more than it is here. In fact, some other great SubTalkers like Bombardier, Christopher Riviera and RIPTA42HopeTunnel frequent there too.
Oh my!? How can that be ?! And on a "moderated" board no less !!
Completely untrue . I come here because I like the way this board is set up and run . The biggest problem right now ( and the only one I see ) is people that keep complaining about the so called "lack of moderation" . These people are getting more annoying than the trolls themselves .
(This has nothing to do with "Legends of the IRT", this is just a general post that seemed to fit in here , so please CPCTC don't think this is meant for you necessarily)
If it's so "bad" here they should go to the "moderated" straphangers board and see what a circus that one is . The quality of the majority of posts on SubTalk blow the Rider Diaries completely out of the water .
There goes a lot of good discussion there, both on- and off-topic because the appropriate areas are designated for them. If the posters who oppose 'moderation' since it's such a taboo term around here, would you settle for a separate forum for off-topic discussion. That's a good idea in my mind.
I propose a name for this new forum: OffTalk. You'll have a link to it at the very top like SubTalk and BusTalk and it's basically a win-win situation: no one leaves, and the off-topic posters get what they want without unnecessary criticism. Of course, the possibility of this idea really only relies on if webmaster Pirmann ever chooses to do so.
I dunno. I have actually done the unthinkable, and do actually have an account at Rider Diaries now, and have made a few random posts over the last month, but don't really like the way some of the people post (I don't even read the "Rider's Platform", so it's not just that). I have tried to give it a chance. It's basically something I only visit maybe once every other week or so, because I don't really have time for more than SubTalk. I also agree with "R-143" that the quality of the posters there is a bit less, and the ones I think higher of are mostly some of the ones that post at SubTalk too. It's not the format that I dislike, because I also visit the railroad.net forums, and that is the same set-up, but really like railroad.net.
I can't warm up to rider diaries for some reason, it just seems childish with all the avatars and smiley faces. But yes, in the end, hell had frozen over, and I did get an account there, although post only very rarely.
If the posters who oppose 'moderation' since it's such a taboo term around here, would you settle for a separate forum for off-topic discussion. That's a good idea in my mind.
Personally, I don't see the need for one here, because there already is an off topic board at Harry Beck's site that few people have taken advantage of, although is there for the using if someone feels the need for it. Just about everyone here at SubTalk knows of that message board (as I have seen most of the people here post there at some point on the main subway board), so it's not a matter of ignorance of the forum. (Speaking of which, is anyone have a similar problem to the problem I posted about in the "off topic" section there?).
I don't know if one is really needed here because most of the off topic posts here stem from "on topic" threads that have strayed through conversation. And as for the few that survive that are "off topic" from the beginning, and Dave hadn't deleted, are usually "NYC" topics, which most of us do have an interest in, and it keeps this place interesting.
So what? You actually let that bother you? What a shame.
I have tried to give it a chance. It's basically something I only visit maybe once every other week or so, because I don't really have time for more than SubTalk.
Then try giving up SubTalk sometime and swap one for the other. Is that so hard to do?
I also agree with "R-143" that the quality of the posters there is a bit less, and the ones I think higher of are mostly some of the ones that post at SubTalk too.
I disagree with that statement.
I can't warm up to rider diaries for some reason, it just seems childish with all the avatars and smiley faces. But yes, in the end, hell had frozen over, and I did get an account there, although post only very rarely.
You should post more often. Methinks you hardly participate at contemporary message boards like that and you miss out.
No way! Like I said, I like SubTalk much better, so that "ain't" gonna happen.
Methinks you hardly participate at contemporary message boards
Certainly true, I don't have the time for more than one, and SubTalk wins. You will occasionally possibly see me there (under a totally different handle), but it probably won't be often.
I do visit the railroad.net forums more often (LIRR and the Subway one), but I can usually read those over a half hour period maybe once a week, and still keep current there. I would post there more often, but usually don't have too much to say.
--Legends of the IRT
Back when I was doing more leisurely shifts on weekend mornings some years ago, I was able to throw in "A nice day to ride a slant-40 over the Manhattan Bridge" to the (then) traffic reporter, Ray Rossi (now a DJ on an FM station in NJ I believe); Ray's a railfan and even lurked on SubTalk at that time.
Man, has this thread drifted.
Let's get back on track!
I've been a very long time listener of WCBS 880 (back to 1976), so congratulations on your longevity! Here's to another 25 years of Todd's "Transit and Weather Together"!
--Mark
Check out his outlandish[?]proposal coming out of City Council in Philly.
Tell me what do you think
Replace url with the url and text with whatever you want the link to say (could be a duplicate of the URL). All that stuff in all caps is not cap sensitive (so you don't need caps).
But he did, so THERE!
I'm also one of the few people who actually posts the < and > when instructing people on how to make links, so I don't make it confusing by saying replace this with that.
Permit us to teach you. The board uses HTML tags, so typing the following:
<a href="http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/traffic/5704-tunnel.html">http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/traffic/5704-tunnel.html</a>
will get you:
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/traffic/5704-tunnel.html
Typing it like this will permit a new window to open:
<a href="http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/traffic/5704-tunnel.html" target="_new">http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/traffic/5704-tunnel.html</a>
Here's a good site to learn HTML from:
http://www.cwru.edu/help/introHTML/toc.html
<a href="http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/traffic/5704-tunnel.html" target="_new">http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/traffic/5704-tunnel.html</a>
That usage is hereby deprecated. If someone hasn't put that code in and you want it to open in a new window, you simply right click and select Open in New Window. If someone has put that bloody code in and you want it to open in the same window, there is no Open in Same Window option.
Which is easier, using the Back button or mouse-clicking between windows?
And why the Broad street subway? I thought PATCO already does all that. Maybe they can have Riverline use the patco tracks next while they're discussing all this.
And including or excluding Staten Island changes nothing.
CG
If air is being provided, but it isn't as cool (or as warm) as one might like, perhaps the system in that car is malfunctioning. If no air at all is being provided, more than likely someone has turned the system off, which is a violation of NYCT's rules and regulations. Perhaps the original poster will tell us which has been the case. Either way, the situation should be reported to NYCT by going to the customer comment page on MTA's website (www.mta.info). Be specific as to date, time, route, boarding location, direction of travel, and car number for each incident. It also wouldn't hurt to provide the Conductor's badge number if available.
David
Yeah right.
This shot, taken at 33/Rawson on April 19, 1986, shows the beginning of the "Silver Fox" era, with the R36 cars in "David Gunn" red. You can clearly see the the silver roofs. I've never seen any photo before that showed the R36's as Silver Foxes until I browsed this one. As you know the Silver Foxes would evolved into the Redbirds by 1989.
One final note: note 9582 (one of the some 20 R36's left) to the right in the photo. In the photo it has yellow (GE) yard stickers. Recently, 9582-3 were a odd GE pair with black (WH) stickers. Were the pair given GE stickers after GOH and (accidentially) replaced with WH stickers during SMS?
IIRC at the beginning of the era, the red paint that they used came in a couple of different hues -- one was a more purple red, and they also had a problem of the color washing out because the paint was initially water based.
IIRC at the beginning of the era, the red paint that they used came in a couple of different hues -- one was a more purple red, and they also had a problem of the color washing out because the paint was initially water based.
Robert
Robert
As a suggestion for next time Little Fingers gets to your machine, you can test your ability to post by using the Preview Message button instead of the Post button. If you can't post, you won't be able to preview either.
Why do I suspect that in a couple years you're going to learn first-hand the down side to the evolution of computer cases that can be opened w/o tools?
I wish I knew where it was, but there is a software package that you can put on your computer that will turn off the keyboard when the cat plays with it.
A box comes up and says "Cat Like Input Detected!" and the keyboard remains locked until you type in the word "Human"
: )
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hmmm, I need to get that!
To avoid that in the future, back your cookies up. Both IE and Netscape allow for that.
I suppose I *could* back up my cookies, but I don't *like* it when my cookies come back up, if you know what I mean.
As for favorites, I built my own system for them, and do not use MSIE or NN for them. I made a folder on the C:\ drive named "WebFavs" and that has folders in it to make the catagories I need.
Then I right click on the bottom tool bar, Select "Toolbars" and then "New Toolbar" and that I point to the new folder that I made. It will open my default browser, and I never have to worry about where microsoft puts those things or if my profile will even load from the network.
: ) Elias
And there lies the problem.
The Best stations are:
Burlington Towne Center, Palmyra, Riverton - nicest views of the surrounding neighborhood
Bordentown - Nice view of the marina
The Worst Stations:
Pennsauken-Rt. 73 - If you want to contract West Nile Virus, this is the stop. There's a swamp behind the Southbound platform
Walter Rand Transportation Center - Despite the all-weather waiting area, the neighborhood is a eyesore.
What are your choices?
Location: 7th & G Streets NW, Washington DC (serves MCI Center, home of the Wizards)
Opening: 12/15/76, 4/30/83
Routes: Red, Green/Yellow
Alignment: Underground
Ceiling: Waffle Arch, but perpendicular vaults. Crossing is at the east end of the upper level, not as vast and dramatic as Metro Center (or to a lesser extent, L'Enfant Plaza). Lower level southern end is exposed, unlike at Metro Center, so the entire vault is visible... breathtakingly high, similar to the high vault from the outbound platforms at the split-level stops.
Platforms: Side (Red, upper level)/Island (Green/Yellow, lower level)
Additional features: First American Bank's Metro Art I - "Yellow Line". Assemblage/Collage by Constance Fleres. Other than that, nothing. Though one of the exits (7th & H Streets NW) is within Chinatown proper. This stop doesn't need any glowing signs over the tubes, as trains continue on with no nearby diverging. The previously noted collage is at the south end of the station. There's also an illuminated Chinese fan somewhere in there...
Gallery Pl-Chinatown is quite the unique little station. It was BORN a transfer point, just not used as such for a while (Same as with Metro Center and Pentagon, but this "while" was rather long) The date the lower level opened is the date the Yellow Line made its debut. Trains were run from here to National Airport, and later that year, were extended to Huntington (to be covered when the spotlight shifts from Transfers to Terminals). Another unique part of the station's life: Trains on the Yellow line were terminated here... Mt Vernon Sq-UDC wasn't opened until eight years later, and that was for the FORMAL opening of the Green Line (which didn't matter; Yellow and Green were to be shared from Greenbelt to L'Enfant Plaza, so all trains ran from U Street to Huntington as Yellow Line trains for a little over half a year). Until the opening of U Street, trains were turned back at yet another station with no crossover. Trains ran between Gallery Place (which was renamed Gallery Pl-Chinatown in the late 1980s) and L'Enfant Plaza on a 15 MPH speed restriction, wrong-railing in one direction or the other... the closest crossover was the one just north of the Plaza; Mt Vernon Sq didn't have it's pocket track yet. The station didn't see its first Green Line train until December 28, 1991, when the line to Anacostia was opened. Currently, this stop serves as a main jumping off point. MCI Center event, go here. Going to/from Red or Green/Yellow, go here. Going from Red to Blue towards Franconia-Springfield, bypass the I Street Tunnel and take a Yellow train into VA, then Blue from there (I've pulled this off many times). You jump from Red to Yellow here. The lower level is unfortnately obscured from most of the view of the entire arch, which is standard height... from the UPPER level, that is...
So to the Red Line we go. The upper level has the side platform configuration, and an extended entrance pod over the lower level, which corsses in a sideways "T" shape at the east end. The lower level can serve as a free crossover, and despite the Green and Red Line's high volume (Green mostly from Branch Ave, but still dangerously combustible elements when mixed), it's safer to mill about here than at the other two downtown crossvaults - ESPECIALLY Metro Center - so making the trip won't likely get you run down by commuters. If my memory serves correctly, the Chinese Fan is near the 9th & G exit, which serves the Red Line... though it's more likely by the Chinatown exit at 7th & H... it IS on the upper level, though. The upper level is a thurd unique point in WMATA rail stations. The sole instance where a line was opened with a station built and ready for service, but left closed. New York Avenue wasn't initially part of the plan, but this was. Yet, a court order forbid Metro to open the station due to lack of handicapped access elevators. The station was to be opened when the Red Line itself made its debut between Farragut North and Rhode Island Ave. Instead, Metro promised hanicapped elveators would be in operation by the next opening phase (July 1st, 1977 - Blue Line), which allowed them to get the station in use before the close of the year. So, it was there and built, but closed off. Though the stop was a Yellow Line terminal, it had no crossover. Weird, but maybe WMATA had a good reason. I recall seeing a train going the wrong way on the rails once on my first visit, but that was in 1988, but that trip involved none of the Yellow Line, and I'd only seen Green as "future" on the maps. The wall plaque signs identifying the station by name are WAY too wide... you need them to show the direction of the stairs to the other levels, and what direction trains go on the stairs to the side platforms... but only near the crossing.
***1/2 for Gallery Pl-Chinatown. Not bad, not that interesting either. If you want to gaze at crossvaults, there are two better stations.
wayne
45' 2 1/2" (13.77m) from top of rail lower level.
My take, technical description and detailed history to come tomorrow.
John
wayne
I use the description of 22 coffers vault for all station using this type of train hall design be they 90 degree crossing two train hall transfer, split level train hall transfer stations or common stations. The total number of coffers in one of the rows of the E, F Route Green, Yellow line section of the station is 30. The total number coffers in one of the rows of the C. D Route Blue Orange line train hall of Metro Center (C01) is 32.
John
Mount Vernon Square opened the same day that Shaw and U Street did. Until Anacostia opened, the Yellow Line operated from U Street to Huntington, though the map showed the Green Line being operational from U Street to L'Enfant Plaza. When Anacostia opened, the Yellow Line was cut back to Mount Vernon Square (with the exception of a few trains late at night) and the Green Line operated from U Street to Anacostia. The late night Yellows to U Street ended when the inner Green Line was completed in 1999.
Though... I think I saw a post mid-city Green Line schedule (actually, I think it was the first timetable to include the mid-city segment of the Green Line, back in September of 1999), and it showed Yellow going through to Greenbelt. And I knew about Anacostia's opening causing Yellow trains to terminate at Mt Vernon Sq, since Green was to be the sole line north of there. The only reason that WMATA didn't just run Green AND Yellow to Huntington is that it'd have been a nightmare getting all three through the corridor between Pentagon and King Street. (though they could have ended Green at National Airport). I wonder if there were any Mt Vernon Sq-Huntington trips BEFORE Anacostia opened.
I don't think you are correct about the Yellow line going to Greenbelt. The amount of extra trainsets needed would be so great, it would not provide any benefit. The Yellow Line ran to U Street so that people would not have to transfer and wait for a Green Line to take them there, but to run every Yellow up to Greenbelt would require so many trainsets and in turn, operators, that it would not be feasible, nor is the demand that great.
I think you are correct Oren, as Alexandria Yard (C99) is the home base for trains dispatched for runs on the Yellow line.
John
I can’t say for sure, but I would hazard a guess maybe two or three might come out of Greenbelt Yard (E99). The reason most are dispatched out of Alexandria Yard is so the T/O doesn’t have to deadhead as a rider on duty from Greenbelt Yard (E99)..
John
This is generally because there are two "blue line special" trains in
the Mt Vernon Square pocket track, waiting for an MCI Center special
event to end. Depending on the size of the event, there are also some
extra red line trains that are released out of Brentwood Yard and
Farragut North when the event ends, and a Green Line train released
from Ft Totten's connector track.
It's not always known in advance when a hockey game is going to end.
The Blue Line specials are extremely popular among hockey fans from
Virginia.
Pre 9/18/99, trains for MCI extra service for the end of the game were held north of U Street, in Brentwood, and at Farragut North.
Technically. Yes, there is enough room in all of the pocket tracks to park separate train sets without the ends of the trains occupying the track circuit in the interlocking at either end of the track. I don’t know the exact length of the pocket track but I think is something under 620’ (188.976m) but no less the 600’ (182.88m) and the West Falls Church (K06) pocket track is over 1200’ (365.76m) long.
There are no references in the WMATA Rules and Procedures Handbook that say anything about spotting more then one train in a pocket track.
John
Are you able to tell us your division or anything else about your job or do you prefer not to?
Are YOU going to join us on the 19th?
Mark
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Make that "rest of the system". My mind seems to be out to lunch this morning.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
That would make sense. As the old ones are in one of the storage yards over at surplus property. I was going to purchase one of them but Adrian wouldn’t let me strap to the roof of my car.
John
Just what signs does Adrian have? Do any of them have the old Brown tape that covered (hid) things on the sign not meant for the publics eyes----I'd love to get a hold of one that reflected the Yellow crossing the Red (with the Green) at Fort Totten or one showing the Yellow going to Franconia (and Blue to Huntington)
Mark
He did have some pylon sides, I went through them looking for just that kind of stuff. None of them had any graphics on them.
Just the big ones that were hung under the mezzanines at the bottom of escalators in the lower level of Gallery Place (F01) and some of the big station wall signs with the strip map that were used in the some of the Southern Green Line F Route stations.
John
Mark
The pylon sides that I wanted would be any of the ones that were or are used on any of the twin platform stations on the C and D routes. Preferably the ones in either McPherson Square (C02) or Farragut West (C03) as the original ones installed by Jack Stone Sign in 1975 had all of the original station names from the revised 1974 ARS on them for all of the stations on the original Blue line and Orange line.
John
Location: 7th & G Streets NW, Washington DC (serves MCI Center, home of the Wizards)
Opening: 12/15/76, 4/30/83
Routes: Red, Green/Yellow
Alignment: Underground Station and support ancillary areas were built using cut and cover construction. Connecting tunnels on the Red Lines B routes were also are built using cut and cover construction. The track centers in the twin box cut and cover tunnels are on 14’ (4.2672) centers. The tunnels both north and south of the ancillary area are shield bored tunnels with a cast in place concrete lining with an inside diameter of 16’ 8" (5.08m).
Ceiling: Waffle Arch, but perpendicular vaults. Standard 22 coffer arch vault.
Platforms: Side (Red, upper level)/Island 600' 0" (182.89m) by 11 5/8" (17.88m) (Green/Yellow, lower level) 600' 0" (182.89m) by 26' 4 1/2" (8.03m) The platform dimensions are identical to the platform dimensions of other stand alone twin platform and island platform stations in subway making Gallery Place (B01, F01) the smallest of the three 90 degree crossing transfer stations in subway.
Additional features: When the station opened the east surface entrance was on the southeast corner of 7th and G Street and did not have escalators in it. Provision were built in the bottom of entrance to allow for the installation of escalators. WMATA at the time of construction was aware that DC Redevelopment Land Agency was working of some kind land use for the block that the surface entrance opened on.
When the station opened the east of 7th and G Street fare collection area was on the mezzanine in the station train hall at the vault crossing. When Abe Polin Built the MCI Center the fare collection area was moved off the mezzanine in the station train hall and put south of the bottom of the what use to be the surface entrance at the southeast corner of 7th and G Street. The present surface entrance is now on the northeast corner of 7th and F Street. Before the Green Yellow line E, F Route train hall was completed stairs were used to get from the mezzanine to the Red line platforms. These stairs were located where the third precast parapet from the left and right corners of the mezzanine is.
As stated above, the platform dimensions are identical to the dimensions of other stand alone station. The train hall vault dimensions are also nearly identical to other stand alone station.
The crossing point of the train halls is the zero chaining point for the E, F and L routes.
The center of the Red line B route train hall is 1,505’ (458.72) from the center zero chaining point in the center of Metro Center (A01). That make the west end of the platform 905’ (275.84) from the east end of the platform of Metro Center. The crossing point of the two train halls are such that the south part of the Green Yellow line E, F Route train hall has one row of coffers less then the north part of the train hall. The center Green Yellow line E, F Route train hall is 50" (22.987cm) north of the zero chaining point. The crossing point Green Yellow line E, F Route train hall of the train halls is 241’ 8" (73.66 m) east of the center of the Red line B Route train hall or 58’ 4" (17.78m) from the east end wall of the Red line B Route train hall.
The air conditioning cooling tower for the station is located on top of the Jackson Graham building. This same cooling tower is used for Judiciary Square (B02)
I am not up to speed on the exact location of the traction power substations and tie breakers along this section of the E and F route Green and Yellow lines but I vaguely recall there being a traction power substation integrated in the fan shaft structure located in 400 block of 7th Street or in the north ancillary area of Archives (F02) and a traction power tie breaker in the north ancillary area of the station. On the southeast corner of 6th and G Street is a fan shaft with 3 5' (1.52m) diameter 50,000 CFM fans.
John
Next edition, the Blue is back...
How is the N running this weekend? They say no service between 86th and Pacific, with D's running via Sea Beach but only toward CI.
Hmm...
Also, a W made it into Bklyn about 6:30 PM at 59th Street/4th Ave, however, it went to 95th Street. This was stupid, since it followed two R's in a row. Moreover, there was a gap in N service. In fact, the N never showed and a mysterious M showed up and took me home...
These dispatchers have to make more intelligent decisions...that W should have went over Sea Beach...
Jonathan
The D will replace the N and run down the Sea Beach Line and up the West End for a GO.
-Stef
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rich Procter: 'Republicans announce convention event schedule'
Contributed by drprocter on Monday, May 03 @ 10:17:55 EDT
By Rich Procter
(FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE)
The following is the "first final" list of events for the Republican
National Convention in New York City, August 30 to September 2.
AUG. 30
6 p.m. -- OPENING PRAYER read by Mel Gibson, while being flogged with a
spiked leather strap wielded by Ann Coulter, who will enjoy it a little
too much.
* TOM RIDGE raises National Alert Level to RED.
* LEST WE FORGET -- HONORARY ROLL CALL of All Members of (and Friends
of) Bush Administration Who Might Very Well Have Been Killed In Vietnam
If It Hadn't Been For Nasty Trick Knees, Anal Cysts, Recurrent
Headaches, and Highly-Placed, Overly-Protective Parents. (Sponsored by
Tyson Chicken)
* ANTONIN SCALIA speaks -- "SLAVERY - THE ORIGINAL INTENT OF OUR
FOREFATHERS! (Sponsored by Wal-Mart)
* DICK CHENEY hosts AMBASSADORSHIP RAFFLE - Opening Bid 1,000,000 (cash, non-sequential bills 20's or less)
* CLIMAX OF THE EVENING -- FILM - "BRING IT ON!" Stirring fictionalized
re-creation of Mr. Bush's actual dental appointment in Alabama in 1972,
where he showed the incredible courage to allow "deep cleaning" of gums
without anesthetic. (Sponsored by Sinclair Broadcasting)
* SUGGESTED AFTER-EVENT -- "GET BAKED WITH RUSH "Crankster" LIMBAUGH! (Location TBD) (Sponsored by Pfizer)
AUG 31
6 p.m. OPENING PRAYER read by Our Lord (The Passion Of) Jesus H. Christ,
as channeled by Lt. General William G. "Jerry" Boykin, the man who
first revealed that Mr. Bush was chosen by God to lead this country into
war against the heathens. Mr. Boykin will then give a short, upbeat
presentation on Islam called, "My God can Beat Up Your God."
* TOM RIDGE raises National Alert Level to FLASHING RED.
* WAYNE LAPIERRE will pry Davy Crockett's Kentucky Long Rifle out of
Charlton Heston's cold dead fingers (subject to Heston's death)
(Sponsored by Smith & Wesson)
* DESIGNATED BROWN PERSON (Hispanic or Muslim, or possibly an Hispanic
Muslim, if we can find one) will speak on how being a brown person
doesn't automatically disqualify you from being a Republican (subject to
finding a brown person capable of being bribed to do this - may need
professional actor, possibly brought in from 3rd world country)
* CLIMAX OF THE EVENING -- PAUL WOLFOWITZ announces American plans to
invade Iran, strip them of nuclear weapons, and turn over entire country
to Bechtel to be run as a subsidiary. (Wolfowitz will tell anxious
voters that the operation will involve 200 out-sourced "consultants",
will take one week and will be entirely funded by pocket change found in
a White House couch.) (Sponsored by Halliburton)
* SUGGESTED AFTER-EVENT -- "RIDE THE WAVE WITH RUSH "Big Oxy" LIMBAUGH!"
(Do a couple of 'ringers' with Big Pharma - sponsored by ROBITUSSIN)
SEPTEMBER 1
* 6 p.m. -- OPENING PRAYER by the REVEREND JERRY FALWELL who will
demonstrate the spirit of Compassionate Conservatism(tm) and the eternal
mercy of God by wishing a horrible fiery death and an eternity in the
pit of hell for all non-white, non-male, non-Christian, non-heterosexual and
non-Republicans.
* TOM RIDGE raises National Alert Level to PULSATING RED
* THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF INSANELY RICH PERSONS (AAIRP) will present LAURA BUSH with A PLATINUM CHAINSAW in thanks for the Bush Administration tax cuts (Sponsored by Gulfstream)
* ANN COULTER, BILL O'REILLY and SEAN HANNITY will lead a special
TWO-MINUTE HATE aimed at photo of John Kerry.
* CLIMAX OF THE EVENING -- DIEBOLD CORPORATION WILL ANNOUNCE ELECTION RETURNS - BUSH WINS RE-ELECTION WITH 51% OF VOTE (YET TO BE CAST).
(JUSTICE ANTONIN SCALIA will certify vote results) Diebold Board member
Wilbur H. Grafton will deny fraud, announce his retirement, and be named
the new Ambassador to Jamaica. (Sponsored by Diebold)
* SUGGESTED AFTER-EVENT -- GET WRECKED WITH RUSH "Kicker" LIMBAUGH (sponsored by Eli Lilly)
SEPTEMBER 2 (nomination night)
* 6 p.m. -- OPENING PRAYER by ATTORNEY GENERAL JOHN ASHCROFT, who will then sing "Let the Eagle Soar" and light the ceremonial "TORCH OF FREEDOM(tm) with the (actual) Bill of Rights.
* TOM RIDGE raises National Alert Level to Fire Engine Red, and
ANNOUNCES CAPTURE OF OSAMA BIN LADEN.
* CONVENTION SHIFTS TO "GROUND ZERO" - DICK CHENEY will introduce and
personally re-nominate PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH, who WILL IMPALE OSAMA BIN LADEN WITH DAVY CROCKETT'S KENTUCKY LONG RIFLE donated by Wayne LaPierre (Sponsored by NRA)
* PRESIDENT BUSH WILL GIVE ACCEPTANCE SPEECH, standing on Osama's dead body.
FIRST PEEK - Here is the proposed text for President Bush's speech:
"Hey, Freedom-Lovers! 9-11 Democracy Freedom Stay The Course Evil-doers
trust my gut 9-11 Freedom Evil-doers Stay The Course Democracy 9-11
Evil-doers trust my gut 9-11 Democracy Freedom Stay the course Trust my
gut Tax cuts Who cares what you think Evil-doers Things are great Jesus
speaks to me 9-11 Democracy Freedom Stay The Course Evil-doers 9-11 I speak to God
Freedom Evil-doers Stay The Course Democracy 9-11 Evil-doers trust my
gut 9-11 Democracy Freedom Stay the course Trust my gut Tax cuts Who
cares what you think Evil-doers I trust in God Things are great Jesus speaks to me.
G'night everybody God Bless America.
POST CEREMONY CLOSING NIGHT PARTY OPPORTUNITIES:
* "GET MAXED with RUSH "ROCKET CAP" LIMBAUGH!" (Sponsored by
GlaxoSmithKline)
* RICK SANTORUM 'DOG ON DOG' PETTING ZOO (adults only, please)
* BILL O'REILLY SHOWS OFF PULITZER PRIZE, ACADEMY AWARD, AND NOBEL PEACE PRIZE
* SPECIAL BUFFET - JOHN ASHCROFT will PERSONALLY EXORCISE A KINDLE OF CALICO KITTENS, BARBECUE THEM, AND SERVE THEM ON CANAPES (sponsored by KRAFT "Thick N' Spicy" BBQ Sauce)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
"Do you want the air conditioning to work properly?"
Of course. But they are so much louder than any other cars and the A/C on quieter cars also works. So I think it must have been a design issue. I'm surprised just how loud they are. For me, at least, they are VERY LOUD. I was just wondering if anyone could shed some light on why. I don't think they have to be loud in order to perform well.
I hope that the designers of the next fleet of new cars find a way to reduce the noise.
You can find part of your answer below:
Click Here
My guess is that the a/c on the newer cars is necessarily less powerful than on the older cars, because the older, more effective coolants are now illegal. To compensate, the marginally cool air is blown forcefully towards the lucky passengers seated in the appropriate positions (just as if you have a room a/c that isn't working very well, you might point it straight at you). The ends of the cars remain warm, but at least some passengers are cooled.
It would be nice if the software would slow the fans while the train is stopped at a station -- but it would be nice if the software did dozens of other things it doesn't do, so I'm not holding my breath. (Besides, I'm busy holding my ears!)
A/C units have fans.
Regards,
Jimmy
Thanks.
Eighth Avenue is very wide. There is all the room in the world for a conventional arrangement, such as at 14th Street.
This puzzles me. Can you enter/exit the subway at street level without first going down to below subway level?
This puzzles me. Can you enter/exit the subway at street level without first going down to below subway level?
No. Not at Seventh and 33rd at any rate. The street enterance takes you down to the LIRR ticket concourse level. There are steps UP to the IRT, IIRC, Maybe at 34th Street, but only the Local Platforms, because the Express platform would be in the middle of the street.
However, these subway stops are mostly for the benefit of NYP passengers. Yes, I know, *I* did commute from 103rd St Bway to 34th Street, but I was expounding generalities.
Thanks, Elias. That's a convincing explanation!
All 4 local platforms at Penn are accessible by just going down one flight from the street. At 7th and 33rd, only the uptown local is. But at 7th and 34th, both are.
True, but that's not the reason they built the station the way they did. Stairways could have been brought down directly to the platforms from street level in a traditional express station arrangement (look at some of the other IRT express stations). It was built in the odd configurations for crowd control. It was expected to be a busy station (with Penn Station above) and they didn't want even more added foot traffic from people running across the platform to switch from local to express in an already busy station.
If the levels of the mezzanine and tracks were swapped, the Penn tracks would not be a problem.
This is so, maybe. But the LIRR Mezinine *was* there first, and it did cross to the east side of the street.
IIRC on the 8th Avenue side you can see the concrete box that the 8th Avenue Lion hides in. It seems to hang from the ceiling.
Anyway, yes, I do believe the principal reason for the arrangement is for passenger control, but regardless, they also did choose what elevation to build the line at, and that is where they built it.
Elias
And I wasn't trying to bait anyone, except for American%2BPig.
So you could have stairs from either side of the street take you down to the underpass level, from which you would have two staircases that take you up to the two platorms. And in fact you now have it so that you have to use the underpass at either station to get to the express platform or the opposite local platform.
So that leaves the extra crowding due to local-express transfers. But you could still transfer local to express, but not as easily, which, I suppose, would still reduce crowding and you could still do an easy transfer at 42 St.
David
As you can see, this was truly a pain.
Before 1984/85, direct access by a line's fleet to a maintenance facility was not important, given the practice of deferred maintenance. The N/R swap (as well as the 2/3 swap in Brooklyn in 1984) were made to better facilitate maintenance, particulary of the new R62 and R68 cars. The swap came at about the same time the R68's began appearing on the N (2800 and up).
For those who may remember, there were plenty of Jamaica R46's running on the Astoria N in September/October 1987, probably due to so many other cars being OOS for their GOH.
Here's one:
When the SAS stubway is compelte, the Q will no longer terminate at 57th. At that point, wouldn't it be nice if the crossover from express to local by the N could be avoided, saving lots of passengers a minute or two?
How to do that? Send the N to Continental via 63rd St and the R to Astoria.
(I'm not saying it's a convincing reason, but it is a reason.)
How to do that? Send the N to Continental via 63rd St and the R to Astoria.
I *like* that idea!
Doubling 63rd Street service and eliminating 60th Street access from Queens Boulevard is a bad idea.
The crossover from express to local doesn't cost passengers a minute or two. There are only occasional merging delays (and don't forget that, by your plan, the N would still have to merge with the Q southbound, and northbound, instead of merging with the N/W, it would be merging with the F). Yes, passengers bound for Queens Boulevard from Broadway express stations would save a bit of time, but those coming from local stations would have to transfer, as would those travelinig between the Sea Beach line and 49th Street. Finally, few Astoria passengers use Broadway local stations, except for 49th Street; Astoria should ideally have one local service and one express service, as it has now.
BTW look at my post here:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=702144
It shouldn't - ESA is a LIRR project.
That *is* what I thought. Will there be a connection to the subway there, for the interchange of cars and equipment and such, it makes sense...
Both LIRR and NJT need places to stash cars in the day time. Their yards would be empty at night. Makes sense if the BMT could stash cars there at night.
But noting in MTA rules and regulations and machination needs to make sense.
Elias
Where are you getting this? The Sunnyside Yard project is meant to only increase storage capacity. I don't think a maintenance shop will be included. Even if it is, there's no need to re-swap the N/R. The Astoria line has been served by the N for almost 17 years.
23rd-Ely, with its scarlet red and brown color scheme, is quite attractive. It's one of the few whose tablets have a mottled or parti-color background.
wayne
Here is a photo .
Huh?? Have you been living in a cave?
(Photos by Wayne R40 Slant)
(photo by "Broadway Junction")
Canal St
(I don'thave many photos of the Canal St station myself, and there aren't many current ones on this site either)
In addition, although Chambers is a mess, it could be a quite attractive station with the high ceilings, and the Brooklyn Bridge bas reliefs are quite attractive. If they did a renovation there, it would really be an interesting station. And if they hung "Utica Ave" like lighting from the high ceilings, it would also make it a very attractive station.
As for Bowery, yeah, that one is a pit, but with half of the station closing by the end of the year, as well as the Queens platform at Canal, it should get a bit better.
Also I saw them installing a wall next to the former trolley terminal, so it seems it will be covered after all. How is that coming along?
Wow, are they really? I really have to get over there and check the station out. I haven't even seen the new mosics yet either, other than photos posted here.
That station had been a pit almost from the beginning. It's nice thatit will finally getting some aesthetics.
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
For aesthetic ugliness, Essex Street BMT HAD a lock on that title until just recently, when the Grecian revivalists paid a visit (with breathtaking results, may I add); Lawrence Street's plug ugly (the mezzanine does have nice tile), but I'll have to cast my vote with Pelham Parkway on the Dyre Avenue line. Can't they do better than painting everything the same shade of slate grey?
wayne
I agree totally, the new mosaics are beautiful. Amazingly, as bad as Ezzex was until this year, do you remember how bad and ugly it was before 1989 when they did the first renovation? Back then, before they put the "cement block" wall up, in it's place were "jail-type" bars running along the whole platform from the token area all the way towards the bridge. That "bar" area was closing off a bunch of stairways that went upwards. Behind that they used to store all kinds of crap, all in clear view. The signage consisted of standard black metal signs hanging on the jail bars. What a mess.
I know this may sound like treason, but I think the station would really be improved further if they would make a track tile wall along the current Queens platform, sealing up the trolley terminal. Now that would also finally get Essex to look like a "real" station and more aesthetically pleasing.
wayne
If only they could have been more creative with the station signs. The MTA's ordinary white-on-black signs just don't fit in with the rest of the station.
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
The platform and waiting areas along the New Utrecht el are no great shakes.
My vote for ugliest design goes to 21st/Queensbridge.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Although Chambers on the J/M/Z could use some work, I think that with a little tile and painting/tiling it could look great.
Bowery, IMO, is beyond help... it is like a dark, tall, lonely, cave. Although I've only been on the platform once, and never actually rode a train out of there (had a free metrocard transfer from a bus and needed to see this place), I'd have to say this place is like hell on the subway.
Myrtle Av. on the G train has always seemed depressing to me, but I'm not sure why.
Also not sure why, but the 2 or 3 times I've been to Dyre Av. up in the Bronx, that station has definately skeeved me out. The platform seems a bit narrow, dirty, and dingy, and could use a bit of a renovation, IMO.
Compared to other cities in the US and the world, however NYC's stations are pretty nice. Take Fairmount Av. on the SEPTA Ridge St. Line, for example. This station is like a lonely, dark, dirty, animal infested, smelly, crypt-like cave. Also, Berks Station on the Frankford El is just about the worst above ground transit station I've been to in my life, and just thinking about it scares me. The only thing worse that I can remember being at is one or two stations on the Chicago CTA Blue Line pre-renovation.
Da Hui
Da Hui
All B Division crews are qualified on all sections of B Division trackage in revenue service.
The only time that qualifications come into play is when either a new section of track is opened (if re-opened section of track, then only newer hires which hadn't had a prior opportunity to operate over it), when a new hire hasn't been posted on a specific line or when one isn't qualified for specific equipment.
In regards to MOD T/O's, they must be Miscellaneous qualified (Work Trains) in order to work equipment such as the R1-9, D-types & Steeplecabs.
And the announcements were correct... they said "This is a New Lots Avenue-bound 5 Express train! The next stop is... Nevins Street!" at Borough Hall.
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
"Stand Clear of the Closing Doors, Please."
Jimmy :)
This is my speculation, but I believe they wanted to have the tracks as far as possible from the expensive CPW real estate. I you measure it, you'll find that all four tracks are on the east side of CPW.
CG
Of course, the result is no exits on the park side of the street, but presumably most people want to exit on the residential side.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
It's "don't mind if I do;" you need to practice.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4152&item=3721924872&rd=1
Linked because of a lazy person.
You're off by either 2 hours, 50 minutes or 3 hours, 20 minutes, depending on which Jewish-fraternity.
If that goes dead, then go to here!
-Yankel Yankowitzenberg
ROTFLMAO
-Chris
What is the purpose of this corridor? It seems quite long, where does it lead?
Chris: THe next time I'm in the area I'll have to see this tunnel that Mr Thetzar is speaking of. I know of a long passageway upstairs on the mezzinine level at the Fifth Avenue end but he says that this one is east of the station running north. Actually at this point the BMT is on a somewhat diagonal alignment running from southwest to northeast in order to shift from 59 Street to 60 Street.
The original route as you mentioned would of had the eastbound tunnel under 59 Street and the westbound tunnel under 60 Street from 5 Avenue to the Queensborough Bridge. In 1915 the contractor offered to build a two track subway under 60 Street . The proposed connection to the bridge was cancelled and the 60 Street Line was connected into a tunnel under the East River.
However, a portion of the original line under both 59 Street and 60 Street was constructed when the IRT Lexington Avenue Line was built which preceded the BMT construction. As the original route was supposed to access the Queensborough Bridge it was buit very close to the surface and is was just below the IRT local tracks at 59 Street Station. Two separate trackways and platforms were consturcted at 59 Street and 60 Street accross the length of Lexington Avenue to await the coming of the BMT.
When it was decided to place the entire line under 60 Street the unsued tunnel at 59 Street became redundant. It was partially resurrected in the 1930's for use as a utility room and as an underpass between the IRT local platforms. It remains in use as such to this day.
The trackway under 60 Street was a different story. It had to be lowered about 12 feet in order to access the river tunnels. The only portion of the original westbound platform remains behind a door high up on the south wall of the present day station. It had originally been intended to use this as part of the mezzinine control area of the station. The door was still visible in 1967 I don't know if you can still see it.
It is relatively easy to see the difference in depth of the the original and present day alignments since the IRT local underpass is reached via a short staircase from the local platform whereas the present day station under 60 Street is reached via a much longer staircase.
Best Wishes. I am looling forward to the agenda for the two IND trips. If one of them is going to vist the Frankin Shuttle again I may be on it.
Larry,RedbirdR33
It was still visible in the late '90s - happened to be open the day it was pointed out to me on a Transit Museum tour. Couldn't see much though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The lion was supposed to go across the 59th Street Bridge, but when they found out that a Lion wouldn't *fit* on the bridge, they jogged over to 60th Street and made a hole under the river for it to ride in.
East of 5 Avenue the line follows 60 Street , whereas west of there it follows Central Park South aka 59 Street.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I thought that is where the tunnel to Central Park was and NOT on the mezzanine.
Who knew that Tolley's made the team...
But it's interesting, I was watching some channel, and they had silent films from the same era in Pre WWII(I think two and not one) germany. The method how people would cross the street was to wait for a moment and run for it! No lights, probably no lane markers, nothing. And of course it was odd watching the women in those times since the skirts and dresses were huge, and they would make a break for it.
Does any of the other cities do this sort of thing with their trolleys? Obviously Detriot probably didn't with theirs. Jazz fest
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
David
There is absolutely no "C" trains stored at Rockaway Park yard. Only the "A" and the Rockaway Park "S".
They stopped storing "C" there when all "C" service was cut back to Euclid Ave.
David
David
I believe officially the Franklin Shuttle R-68s are based in Coney Island yard, even if they don't always make it back there.
David
1/9: 240 St (Van Courtlandt) Yard (or 137 Street for rush hour put in's)
2: 239 Street Yard (E. 180 St Yard for HVAC repair) (a few at Livonia for Rush Hour)
3: Livonia and Lenox Avenue Yard (148 Street)
4: Mosholu, (Livonia for Rush hours and Concourse for cleaning)
5: Unionport and East 180 Street Yards (Livonia for Rush hour)
6: Westchester Yard
7: Corona Yard (Coney Island for other types of repairs)
All lines go to Coney Island for their annual maitianance check up.
Diesel Fleet: Westchester Yard and 36-38 Street Yards
Also: I don't believe subway cars have an "annual" maintenance cycle that requires main-shopping (rather, inspections are mileage-based and performed at the "home" shop, and most if not all SMS work would be done at the main shop), and some cars go to 207th Street for main shop work as opposed to Coney Island.
I did miss 137th Street Yard for #1/#9 trains, though :-)
David
But I gave a more detailed accurate list, just incase he had any other questions.
"S (Franklin Avenue): usually in the Prospect Park station or south of the station, not in a yard"
David
Is the 36-38 St Yard the one at 9 Av, where the M terminated last
year weekday-middays? Are there no subway trains stored?
Currently, only some R trains are stored at 38th Street Yard (also at CIYD). No maintenance is performed at 38YD for the stored R's.
Yeah, one has to step back for a second from the forest and check this "pooh" out ... what is the *MAIN* domain of the federal government? INTERSTATE COMMERCE! And here's our brainboy Shrub deciding that the STATES should run a national railroad. ExQUEEZE me? If America wasn't so brain-dead (No WONDER the republicans rag on and on about "edumication", CLEARLY they never GOT one) this would have been laughed out of congress *so* fast, the leadership would have missed a taxpayer-paid junket. :(
But WE gots republicans. :-\
Yeah, THAT'S the plan ... let NEW JERSEY do it. Words cannot describe the stupidity, yet it stands before us hat in hand saying "re-ELECT me, I'm a genius." :(
And before everyone else goes nuts with Brother Elias' gift, lemme be the SECOND to abuse it, heh ...
Six. Newark, EWR, Metropark, New Brunswick, Princeton Junction, Trenton.
But, why NJT?
That was Amtrak's choice, plus NJ has been putting money into the Clockers for a very long time. NJT passes have been cross-honored on Clockers for decades.
Why is New Jersey operating a service that connects philly, PA, to NYC, NEW YORK?
The gist of the article is that NJT may not be operating trains between 30th Street Station Philadelphia and Penn Station New York, but instead running Trenton-NYP. And NJT isn't operating these trains yet. When NJT does, they will most likely be operating with bi-level cars instead of Amfleets, too.
Amtrak operates the Clocker service. NJT will take over the service in the future. The trains arrive at Trenton (from Philly, North Philly, and Cornwells Heights) nearly empty, because they are Amtrak trains with Amtrak prices. NJT pays Amtrak $12 million per year to allow NJT monthly and weekly tickets to be honored on the Clockers, which (I understand) are full when they leave Princeton Junction. They also stop at Newark. It is estimated that it will cost NJT $6 million per year to operate the Clockers.
The question, once NJT takes over the service, is why NJT should subsidize Philly passengers going to New York?
The question, once NJT takes over the service, is why NJT should subsidize Philly passengers going to New York?
And the next issue is: NJT takes over the former AMTK tunnel and platform slots at NYP, which in case you have not noticed are in finite supply.
Merely substituting one operator for another in the same slots. No loss and no gain of same.
Except that Amtrak trains tend to have longer dwell time in Penn than NJT trains. More people with luggage, etc.
"Merely substituting one operator for another in the same slots. No loss and no gain of same."
There is no change in the number of trains or platforms, but AMTK looses seven time slots, and NJT gains them. NJT can then be more flexible with its departures. Maybe it moves the Clocker to a 4:05 departure, and puts a different train in the 4:00 slot. Somewhere along the line, the whole NJT system can run more efficently.
That's what I meant. NJT may be a good service and may do it better, but the question really was, it connects philly, pa, one big city, to nyc, ny, the other big city, and everything inbetween is nice and all, but isn't NJ just the middleman? Why's the middleman connecting two cities?
That's like connecting LA and Vegas by train, with a stop at the hoover dam with station in Arizona, and having Arizona run the service.
It would make more sense to me to have the silverliners run the whole way up.
VIDEO
There was much wrong-railing as the station is under construction of an overpass for access to the far platform. For now, there is a shuttle bus to take passengers from the main to the opposite platform.
more PHOTOS here.
Your pal,
Fred
Pity that no steps nor trapdoors are on that Acela train set; as the train is currently built, it cannot stop at Kingston.
There were rumblings that David Gunn wished to "stretch" the AE train sets to 8 or 9 cars; those seem to have evaporated for now . . .
Also, reportedly, fixing the former PRR lines for high speed is supposed to bring a mere 45 miles of 150-mph running to a 225-mile corridor?? There is quite a bit of straight track on the former PRR; there should at least be half of that mileage capable of supporting 150-mph running.
It's funny, I saw 3 Acela's run through the station. The first lumbered through really slowly, the second is the one I caught and the 3rd was fast but not "high speed".
Anyway, my next step is to ride the thing through that stretch.
Your pal,
Fred
He just said he doesn't know! Pay attention for once!
No, seed in that segment is 135 mph.
Funny how the train seems shorter at speeds like that
Length contraction is one of the many effects predicted by Einstein's Special Theory of Relitivity.
Your pal,
Fred
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
There is a road overpass at the other end of the platform, but getting to the other platform is more complicated than just crossing the bridge.
Presumably used to cross over fish without getting your feet wet?
As for the Kingston station and people, it was very photo friendly. People asked why, but never put a sinister face on railfanning. I met a couple of guys who would spend their lunch hour in the adjoining park and watch the trains. They knew the exact time the Acela would come through and suggested good parts of the park to shoot photos from. So far, so good, as far as Amtrak goes, with regard to photography.
Your pal,
Fred
Just walk across the damn tracks...
Excellent; Rhode Island hasn't been host to a Darwin Award recipient yet.
And if there's construction on the southbound express track at Queens Plaza, E's would have to switch to the local at Roosevelt.
Thanks.
Once you get past Saratoga, you can look forward to the company of primarily Canadiens ... the most WONDERFUL and GRACIOUS people you will know. Suggestion - be KIND, POLITE and thoughtful and you will ENJOY your experience and the graciousness of our neighbors to the north beyond your wildest expectations. Just don't mention George Bush and everything will be a delight. And if they say "Je ne sais pas" in your face, just grab a crayon, write quickly on anything you can find, "FERMEZ LA BUSH" ... They'll buy you a Moosehead. :)
Ces Américains. Quest-ce que je peux dire? Heh.
En tous cas, assez de politique et de céfran sur Subtalk...
Baack to transit!
QLM?
(Is this a proper translation of WTF?)
Technically, to describe the F word, one would say «Putain» or utilize the verb «Baiser» to describe the actual act of f...ing.
It buggs me that someone would use a single line reply like "wtf?" to me and another Subtalker. People he hardly knows. Maybe he does the same when sending emails to his parents, therefore doesn't know to respect people. In which case, I can sympathize. It wasn't his fault. It's the education he had. Even then, he should be learning something by the time he will raise his own kids or else...
In any case, I don't post here as frequently as some do and I don't want to go into politics any further on this board and I feel sorry that my joke post went O/T and is heading to the wrong direction. I will not respond to any replies unless I find it necessary to do so.
Of course, if you're prudish and/or old-fashioned that's a different story, but saying what the fuck to someone is generally not considered condescending or disrespectful to the recipient.
Anyway, ENOUGH!!
Then I suggest you wear a suit and tie all the time. There is a time and a place for everything.
Check out Insultmonger.com to find the proper equivalent.
In Jan. 2001, I took an Air France flight to Paris. On the in-flight magazine, there was an interview of Bo Derek, who is a «Bouche» supporter. One of the questions she was asked was «On dit que Bush est un crétin. Qu'est-ce que vous penser de cela?». That's when I came up with the joke about having a Chrétien or a crétin running the country. ;-)
Trip Report, Part One
Trip Report, Part Two
Trip Report, Part Three
Trip Report, Part Four
Trip Report, Part Five
Trip Report, Part Six
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
from Middletown to JFK via MN/NJT, LIRR and Airtrain
JFK to Rochester via JetBlue [$49 OW!!]
the next day:
Rochester to Toronto via the new CATS fast ferry The Breeze
several days of trolley/subway riding plus CN Tower,Hockey HOF, Yankees/Blue Jays games,etc,etc in T.O...
return to Rochester via The Breeze [what a hokey name....]
Rochester to Poughkeepsie via AMTRAK..then MN to Beacon...
SOMEHOW I havent figured a way to squeeze a real bus into the mix...oh well...
Even better, it's $45 to Montreal but $50 to Albany. I assume this is an excursion fare, but if you need to go to Albany, just get a ticket to Montreal and wander off at Albany.
You'll see good speed between Yonkers and Albany. It slows down towards Saratoga and at many points through the Adirondacks, you're on single track line. It is in this area that a slow freight train ahead has been known to throw the whole schedule for the train.
Expect delays at the border (more than an hours worth of delays are build into the schedule.) Security was stepped up in recent years and agents are relatively thorough - which tends to slow things down even more.
As for Montrealers - try to speak even broken bits of French to them rather than English unless or until they reply in English. Use an English to French dictionary. Keep in mind that Quebec is a French speaking province. New York is English speaking. It's not reasonable to insist that Montrealers know English any more than it is to expect that New Yorkers know French. So use hand gestures and motions (hopefully polite ones) to get your point across if all else fails.
.
Qu'est-ce que vous y regardez? --- Hey, waddya lookin at?
Bonjour --- Wassup
Oubliez-le --- Fuhgeddaboudit
D'accord --- Iiiiiight
Combien coute pour ça? - How much you chargin' for dat sh*t?
Je voudrais --- Gimme dat
Vous êtes fou/folle --- You buggin'
Qu'est-ce que c'est? --- Yo, wassup wit dat sh*t?
Other helpful phrases available upon request.
Oui, je suis da shizzle.
Mark
dp. NY Penn 8:15 AM (M-F) or 7:45 (Sat/Sun)
arrive Montreal 6:30 PM M-F or 5:50 PM Sat/Sun
allow a layover at Plattsburg/Rouses Point for Customs
Service: Coach, Lounge Car
The NY Division Bulletin is copy write and that’s all I can tell you.
The “Division” has a tour of the Ave X shops coming up. Time to join the “Division” to find out when and how much.
And the NY Times isn't???????
Or post a textual description of the map.
Chuck
NJT has actually tried to improve the connections, and I've heard that they've been successful.
Cheap tickets on the Clocker are weekly or monthly NJT commuter tickets; doesn't work for the occaisional trip.
Nice pic.
Regards,
Jimmy
What's strange is that it wasn't using any R-142's or R-33's at all.
What convinced me it had something to do with ties/rails was the big ass yellow thing at the end of the train. I don't think it was the Sperry Rail car as that runs on its own, right? What the hell was this thing?
Also, in 5 min I saw 5 trains:
4 cars to OB
w/e that long train was
4 cars from OB
4 cars eastbound, didn't stop. Montauk train?
M1/M3 train westbound, not sure how long. This train was stopped about a quarter mile down the track for the whole time while everything else cleared Mineola. There was a jeep that I guess went around the gates right in front of that stopped train and got a lil stuck, cuz it was stopped on the tracks for about a min or 2. Pretty funny.
Can you arrange it?
It may have been an empty rail train.
A rail train consists of flat cars linked together, with tower like structures every 20-30 feet or so, the towers have five or six levels, and each level has rollers on them.
When loaded the train will carry about 36 lengths of quarter mile long welded rail. bleieve it or not, the thing goes around curves just fine thank you. From the rear of the train, the rail is laid out between the existing running rail as if it were extruding wet spaghetti. After laying down a few miles of rail, it goes back for more.
Other work trains that it might have been may have been a tie train. That can drop off ties along side the ROW where needed.
There are rail grinders, and tie replacers, laser guider rail alignment machines, ballast tampers, ballast hoppers, and a whole host of other things all painted yellow.
I'm trying to post a link on this page. Let me know if this successful
http://riverline.com/html
http://riverline.com/html
BTW, if you want to look at the HTML code for certain pages that you are curious about to see how the links work, right-click the page and hit "View Source". It'll show all of the HTML tags.
What you want is http://www.riverline.com. This assumes you want the River Line Home Page.
Have fun!
John
David
-Broadway Buffer
David
Yes they were, tracks cost money to maintain and cannot be used if not properly maintained. Money shouldn't be wasted on maintaining useless infrastructure.
never envisioned that Coney Island might be making a revival some day.
If track 3 is needed again in the future, it can be replaced at that time.
A total of 17 R-17s were painted in the "Silver Fox" or "Redbird II" paint scheme. These cars were not rebuilt as were the R-26s thru R-33's but were repainted in order to match the rest of the fleet. Oddly enough some of these R-17's had been on the 42 Street Shuttle for years and even though they were panted white for a long time they were the only graffitti-free cars on the subway system.
Nine of these cars were repainted first, 6614, 6616, 6618, 6619, 6620, 6623, 6624, 6626 and 6627. These were painted Fox-red and put in service on the Flushing Line in order to provide the eleventh car while the R-33WF single units were sent off for rebuilding. When the rebuilding was complete these cars were transfered to the 42 Street Shuttle and seven addtional R-17s which had been running on the shuttle were also repainted; 6550, 6579,6594, 6665, 6681, 6688 and 6699. These 16 R-17s survided all there bretheren in passenger service and I believe that they outlasted the younger R-21s and R-22s as well. They ran on the shuttle until the latter part of 1987 and where then transfered to the #5 for there last few months. Once again in mainline service they could show a good turn of speed. The last run was on February 29, 1988. The last train had cars (N)6620-6614-6550-6681-6579-6618-6624-6623-6619-6626(S). It left Flatbush Avenue at 806PM for Dyre Avenue.
One R-17 was painted into a "Pullman Green" paint scheme along with
R-21 7075 for use as spares on the Green R-33 train.
I did say 17 R-17s were painted Fox Red didn't I? The 17th one was 6743 which was painted red during the latter part of its stay one the Flsuhing LIne but it doesn't seem to have mad the cut for the 42 Street Shuttle.
Scrappings: Two R-17's were wrecked beyond repair at Zerega Avenue on August 29, 1957 and were scrapped in 1959.
Three R-17s were destroyed in the 42 Street Shuttle fire of April 21, 1964 and reported scrapped on the spot. (There were on track 3 and suffered the most damage.) 6580 was wrecked in a derailment at Chamber Street on September 25, 1965 and scapped in July 1967.
Preservation: Two R-17s have been preserved.
6609 is in the Transit Museum at Court Street. She arrived there on July 26, 1976 about a month after the museum opened. She is painted in the orginal marroon scheme. To the best of my knowledge she had not been used in passenger service from 1976 to 2003 when she began running on the March of Dimes trips.
6688 is of course alive and well at Branford thanks to the many sub-talkers up there who work to keep her running. She is in the more modern "Redbird II" paint scheme.
Credit for much of the earlier post about 59 Street should go the the late David Rogoff who wrote many articles about the history of the subway system.
Credit for the R-17 information goes to two sources; first to a Mr Eric Oszustowicz for a article entitled "The Last Days of the R-17s" and second me.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, we take mighty good care of our gal up there. A many thanks to ntraintoastoria, Stef, Mr rt, BMT Man, Lou from Brooklyn and others who are non-subtalkers that keep 6688 rolling as she does now. Two weeks from today is Subway Weekend so come on up and take 6688 and 1689 for a spin or two. You won't be sorry.
Regards,
Jimmy
The three R-17's in the shuttle fire of 4/21/64 were 6595, 6597 and 6601.
Thanks Steve: Its always good to add a some new information.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Was she indeed. Was it FC I or II. I'm not a Gene Hackman fan but I will add that info to the file.
Thanks Steve
Larry,RedbirdR33
Amin: I can't say for certain. I do recall always seeing one train of solid R-17s but the other six cars may well have been mixed with the other equiptment.
Larry,RedbirdR33
And I'm not complaining, not really. It's something different anyway.
For some basic information try this link
http://stage.itp.tsoa.nyu.edu/~amt3/mt/archives/000096.html
Here's an interview with the artist:
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m1285/n8_v26/18777631/p1/article.jhtml
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
This move signified as an end to an era whereas there were no R27/30s on any part of the Eastern Division after almost 30 years of service.
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
til next time
til next time
til next time
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
?????????
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
It's nice to see that your expensive education hasn't been a total waste.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Please put the gasoline can away.
It just makes you look bad.
I've been wanting to go back to that place for awhile.
Great food there.
I was supposed to see my mom today anyway even though we weren't going out, but my dad called me last night and said that she blacked out after they got home from having dinner with us, so she's at the doctor today. I'm going to head up there later when she gets home, but its not the way I envisioned spending Mother's Day.
But at any rate, Happy Mother's Day and enjoy life! : )
Maybe if you KNEW YOUR BRITISH RAILWAY LOCOMOTIVE CLASSES you'd have saved yourself some time.
http://thejoekorner.quuxuum.org/rroster.htm
Chuck
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
First North Western
First Great Western
GBRf.
But definitely don't ask them what happened to their First Great Eastern franchise.
You might be looking at the wrong website, too. First's UK site has details of trains as well as buses.
I was employed by First up untill a couple of months ago Adam, and they are a big name in rail franchises in the UK....
First North Western
First Great Western
Transpennine Express
They even operate a smallish freight company - GBRf.
But definitely don't ask them what happened to their First Great Eastern franchise.
You might be looking at the wrong website, too. First's UK site has details of trains as well as buses.
I'd like to castrate the saps that defaced my cars, because those cars run somewhere (remotely) near my home
Vandals are the most useless pieces of sh_t on earth. When they are all arrested, then we can die in peace.
Of course, the R142/A/3s are the most vandal-resistant cars in the NYCSS because of the vandal shield.
I do not like that graffiti either because the R142As are my favorite cars too. If I saw vandals doing graffiti, I would walk up to them, grab all of them by their shirt collars, and make them beg for mercy. Not only would that discourage them to ever do graffiti on my cars again, it would make them stay out of the NYCSS ALTOGETHER.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I highly doubt that.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamondf (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Are you sure it was spray paint? Usually its white shoe polish they use.
That's right! Rough 'em up! It drives the point home when reason didn't work.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
While you're at it, you can sic all of your stuffed animals at them, too. They'll probably be more effective anyways.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Then you would get your ass fired and probably sued, to boot.
Peace,
ANDEE
Da Hui
Of course. :-)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I don't think that punishment fits the crime or the reason behind it.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
If they let tagged cars out on the road even for just one trip, then they're on the road to undoing all the good they've done over the last 15 years or so.
wayne
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Meanwhile, at some airport, a Guilford College student takes box cutters and is able to get them on board a plane to show that airport security sucks. I got from the parking garage to a USAirways Shuttle flight at Logan Airport in 20 minutes on September 9, 2001 (and was able to change my flight in that time as well) and I know people who have unintentionally brought pocket knives through security sucessfully.
Whatever it is, it's probably not good enough being how easy it is for newscrews and war games folk to ship uranium around and sneak into secure area's of airports and get on planes. The wargames folk had a 100% sucess rate to get and do whatever they pleased without ever being questioned or found out about...until they were fired for finding the faults.
I wonder if the St. Louis airport not checking ID's on boarding is good or bad or if that even matters too.
1. Look at the Israel stat and realize that no matter what we do, not every attack can be and will be thwarted and learn to live with that fact.
2. Stop being so paranoid. The terrorists are winning.
Is that all you would like to do . . . ?
#3 West End Jeff
But your non-R142/A/3s ain't vandal-resistant on the windows! And that includes your favorites, your R62/As! :-P
Boo-yah to that!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
A quick query: can you even tell a R-62 and a R-62A apart?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I don't hate the "new-tech." It's just that if I was given the choice between that and a R62 or R62A, I'd pick the 62 and 62A.
I don't hate a particular car. I just like some more than others.
Oh, well.
Sorry, I was too lazy yesterday.
The rest (that I know of)
-Acceleration/Deceleration sound
Sorry. I don't pay much attention to the R62/As.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
If your eyes are trained to be quick enough to READ a number plate
on a moving subway car, so too your eyes can adjust to spot a speaker portal.
So?
So, the R142s, R142As, and R143s are more vandal-resistant than other cars in the NYCSS! They have stainless steel and vandal shield (windows), making them both graffiti and scratchitti-resistant (windows)!
(And meanwhile, all the others cars in the NYCSS run around with scratched up windows and wall panels. The wall panel replacements for the newer models are available whenever and are pretty cheap.)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
F for effort, Benjamin the Assumer.
Br. Allah and myself have been the lone (?) Redbird holdouts.
You don't get a prize.
I always thought the R62/As were your favorites.
Arrrrrrrrrrgh (Bangs head on desk)!!!!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Seattle Metro's Waterfront Trolley is a couple blocks away, but it uses a sweet sounding whistle, and they rarely blow them in that part of town; usually the whistles are used for the grade crossings under the Alaskan Way Viaduct on thw waterfront.
And I have heard a LOT of the ferryboat horns when the Mariner's games are on TV. The Washington sState ferry terminal is about four blocks away, and they are ALWAYS sounding off when docking or departing. Most of their boats have a single-note honker (like a GG-1) but the MV Spokane, MV Walla Walla, MV Tacoma, MV Wenatchee, and MV Puyallup have a dual tone horn...but it is nothing like a railroad horn. It is very distinguishable. (Usually only the MV Tacoma and MV Wenatchee operate into Seattle, the MV Spokane is now out for rehab, and the MV Walla Walla and MV Puyallup work the Edmonds-Kingston route up north.)
The ferries are a little further up from Safco Field.
Chuck ;-(
RIP Little Red Caboose
The northbound was then 15 minutes late, so all meets with southbound trains were on passing sidings except for the first meet, south of Route 73, where the southbound was waiting for us.
All the River Line park-ride stations were virtually empty Saturday morning and mid day, although the trains were well patronized.
In Trenton, I photographed the SEPTA push-pull train on the layover track.
Returning southbound, I exited in Burlington to photograph the trains running in the middle of Broad Street.
In Camden, I actually photographed a BUS! Also I got a meet of a northbound in-service train with a southbound deadhead.
While in the neighborhood, I took a short walk to photograph Camden's first City Hall, which was subsequently occupied by PSE&G, and is now a library.
Returning to 36th Street, I photographed some ofthe freight engines in Camden's Pavonia Yard, getting CSX locomotives in both Conrail and CSX liveries.
Correct.
My photography from railroad property included the photos from the 36th Street station platform in Pennsauken, the platform at Trenton station, and the Camden Pavonia Yard photos taken from inside the River LINE train.
I didn't see NJT police at any of those locations.
A former Subtalker reported that she had a SEPTA photography permit and that she was required to produce it several times over a few days of SEPTA photography.
OH MY! I used to ride those same exact NJ Transit buses for years. The horrible memories I had waiting in the rain and cold for that blue and white NJ Transit bus will stay with me forever. I was a long suffering bus rider who lost HUNDREDS OF HOURS of my life waiting for that bus. The countless letters I sent to the President of NJ Transit pleading him for more bus service went in vain. Now that I use the HBLR each day, there is no need to ride those shake, raddle and roll flexible buses.
SEPTA's last 10 coaches, Bombardier Comet III cars (2550-2559), were an add-on to a Metro North order, so they were built to MN specs.
The first day of the Riverline, I stayed at a friends house a little too late. The SNJLRT was late enough to where I missed my scheduled NEC train. Luckily there were a few trains left to whisk me to New York.
Exept for the delays, the River line is worth it.
Chuck :-)
Depends entirely on how much space you plan to use and the design of your layout. Assuming you're talking modeling trains rather than playing with trains, you'll be using more expensive techniques to get better results. The exception to this would be if you choose to build Ntrak modules (see the Ntrak website for more information), but subway modeling - even in N scale - takes up a fair amount of room.
... what scale do they make most subway train models?
Ready-to-run, there are more in O tinplate (MTH makes them - this is Lionel-compatible). Overall, there are more in HO scale, but most are very expensive brass. But again, none of it is cheap. Here's another site with a lot of good information and links.
... which is the least expensive model train scale to run and which one has the most options and different trains to choose from?
Talking trains now, not subways... used to be that HO was the answer, no ifs, ands, or buts. Now N scale is right up there with HO - overall costs about the same, better selection of reasonably-priced trains than HO has, almost as good a selection of scenic details. During the years I was involved in the hobby business (late '80s through early 2001) N scale moved from about 10% of our business to nearly 30%, and it was ahead of HO among adults who were starting out or switching scales (HO was still the scale of choice for father-son layouts, since children under about 10-12 tend to have difficulty handling N scale).
Personally? I have all the major scales, from G through Z, but I am primarily an N scaler, building Ntrak modules.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Personal note - After 4 years of building my first O gauge layout, I decided one day that it did not meet my needs. I'm now taking it apart and starting over. Some of the 100s of feet of track, thousands of feet of wire and most of the scenery materials are lost. Learn the lesson the easy way.
$ 100 for lumber and hardware
$ 75 for power supplies
$ 150 for track and roadbed
$ 250 for 3 locomotives (Good diesels)
$ 150 for 15 decent freight cars
$ 150 for 6 good passenger cars
$ 875 total
By shopping around and looking for blowouts you can shave s couple of hundred off of these prices. But get GOOD locomotives (Kato or Athearn Genesis) Poorly running HO kept me in Lionel.
After I built the base layout I realized that it was easy for me to build my city above parts of the tracks, and an instant subway with some open cut running was born.
And the "tunnels" were built with something that is very cheap and available - preforated cardboard. Easy to graffiti, easy to cut, stick a few finishing nails in the table, slide the cardboard through the nail and voila! Instant subway walls. The homasote top that supports the city is also the roof of the subway tunnel.
When I started my layout, MTS Imports had the majority of subway models, but in brass, it was too expensive. Images Replicas came out with R-17/R-22 kits that you put together, but I found that I didn't have the patience to do that (although assembled and painted cars are now sold). I started with Walthers HO kits of BART and WMATA cars, and over time, I was able to acquire NYC Subway models, some brass, some half brass/half expoxy, and more recently, HO scale R-17 sets from Life Like which run very very well (though they sit "higher" than other models). So MYC subway models are more within reach of the average HO modeller now than they were 10 years ago.
O-scale (MTH trains) has some great looking subway cars now, but I don't have the room for them. I may purchase some in the future as display models, but they'll never run in my house.
Atlas has a pretty good book on the basics of wiring (and to this day, this is how my layout is wired - I'm lousy with a soldering iron so everything is wired into screws), and there was also a small book on track planning that had scale drawings of Atlas track. I used that to plan my layout and made sure it would "fit" on the tables before I bought track - and this plan told me how much track I would need. The layout has changed only slightly from that plan (I realized that a layup track could become a mail line track with the addition of two more switches).
Another idea I got from another modeller at a meet a few years ago - build the table base with foam insulation! Easier to work with than homasote or plywood.
Most of all, have fun with it! You'll learn as you go.
--Mark
Go to a swapmeet and buy a train or two, some track and 3 or 4 switches. Knock together a couple of trestles (you don't have to buy buy virgin timber - any wood will do ) and put one of the doors up in the garage with a sheet of insulation board on topand play around with the track,etc. and practice simple wiring. Try out ways to get the Elevated and Subway that you want and gradually enlarge and extend your layout
In a few years you MAY have a layout you can show in Model Railroader but you will have had lots of fun ! Good Luck !!
Model Railroader had a 4x8 layout (rather simple one, with one locomotive) they said they built for $500. I said YIKES that is expensive. But on reflection, that *is* dirt cheap.
My railroad is at http://members.tripod.com/BrElias/.
As far as building a subway layout from scratch... I'd think of building on bookcases. A lay out could be about 12 to 20 feet long and only 10 inches wide. Only one 90 degree curve. Operations are a little limited this way, but it is a start. It lets you try things out before you invest a fortune of time and money into it.
Elias
My suggestion is to join a club that has a layout. You can buy a few pieces of rolling stock to run on it and could build a module (if they take their layout to shows).
My layout never got build because we ended up having four kids & one of them took over my layout room before it was much more then a board with track on it :-(
My model of WB&A 92 is a dream, but if only I could stand in the cab with the controller handle in my hand.
I have dozens of pictures of our Brill open car #1164, but the thrill when she takes power under my left hand has never gone away, even after 30+ years.
HO has quite a bit more available to you {to buy :)} in every category; buildings, details, vehicles, etc., besides the rolling stock. NYC equipment has been around for years in brass, plastic and epoxy. There's alot more coming. HO takes up a whole lot less space and alot cheaper to buy.
For those of us so skilled, most of the fun is making the rolling stock ourselves.
Also might want to visit the NYC transit modellers yahoo group.
Below are some photos from 5/8/04
Instead of giving a boring description of my trip, I have made this trip map. Remember, there are alot of photos below.
Here are the PHOTOS:
Hope you enjoyed em!
-Chris
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Da Hui
Just got bored.
-Chris
The second one - that should read Coney Island without the ", Bkln".
The photos (except for the 2nd and 3rd from the top and bottom) all rock.
How far down the platform at Prospect did you catch that 6 Av/D sign?
I am already saving up some money to purchase a digital camera so my website has some real content!
I like this one the most. Where did the rest of the sign go?
Don't know what "Cleasly" is (your butler's name?) but you didn't label the topic "Off-topic" but "Not train-related".
Besides, this is very old news. We all know about Google point-bombs and other tricks. Use Teoma.com instead; it doesn't fall for tricks like that.
Stating that it is off-topic does not mean anything. Off-topic posts are not allowed here, as is stated on the index page and as I have restated below.
So what part of...
This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only.
...do you not understand?
So that makes it ok to post off-topic here? Why not try an off-topic board that isn't associated with this board, such as this one?
Have you had your heart attack yet? You look ready :)
I am not a flower. The owner of the website said we need to police from within since he doesn't want to do the job. If you can't follow his wishes of staying on topic then maybe you need to take a time out to think about your ethics.
Attention Sir Ronald Mc Donald:
I am going to work to assemble a concensus to get you banned from SubTalk for harrassing the community
:)
Welcome to the SubTalk bulletin board at
www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of rail transit
systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics,
but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only. Off-topic
and harassing posts will be removed at the discretion of the
management. Please note! This site is not run
by MTA New York City Transit!
He posts a lot of great pictures.
No.
The poster you are responding to happens to know a HELL of a lot more about the subway than you EVER,EVER will.
And that makes it ok for him to post off-topic threads? I don't follow your logic.
Well I'll be.....
It's all logical. This is just the result of politically motivated very clever meta tagging, nothing more. By changing just two characters, I can increase or decrease my business site's visibility; radically. Ask Assad where the weapons are, he knows.
-Broadway Buffer
Thank You
-Broadway Buffer
-Boradway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
The map design may change.
It appears the Fantasy City Transit Authority (the FCTA) is already clamoring for some improvements to their transit system after celebrating a humble tenth anniversary. Check out the details here.
The current system map.
Page one of the Plan for Action.
Unfortunately enough, only page 1 is available of this Preliminary Plan. That Mayor Camden... More as it comes.
The map design may change given it's blandness.
We got MCI Classic #3009 on the BxM1 at Henry Hudson Parkway West & Independence Avenue. Took that to 51 Street on the (6) and took the (6) to 14 Street-Union Square. We went outside the station. I photographed NYCT New Flyer D60HF Articulated #5759 (M14A). Then we got on NYCT New Flyer D60HF Articulated #5728 and took that all the way to the last stop on the East Side (Grand Street & FDR Drive). I took this interior shot of #5728 (my first ever bus interior shot). Then we got off and took the next bus (NYCT New Flyer D60HF Articulated #5734) to 14 Street & 3 Avenue. We got off there, picked up some things, and then took R143 #8225 on the (L) to Union Square-14 Street. We got off, and I photographed #8225. I know I used flash, but remember I only use flash when the train is at a complete standstill (If I don't use flash, the picture is extremely dark). We got on the (6) again and took that to Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall. We went over to the uptown platform (The T/O didn't let us round the loop.) to catch R142A #7645 (the car we took down to Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall). We got on and rode it all the way up to Pelham Bay Park (as usual, I videotaped the run through the railfan window). I photographed the interior of #7645, then left the train and I took this photo of #7645.
Enjoy!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Please put the gasoline can away.
It just makes you look bad.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Note how it says how long until the train to New Carrollton is leaving now. It was showing the same message on both sides of the platform (both tracks), with the old "Next Train" sign doing its job to complement it. There was an out-of-service train on the "New Carrollton" track, so with the two working together people got where they were going. I actually first noticed this "leaving" sign as the train was pulling into Vienna, and so I don't know if it does this only while the train is arriving and sitting, or if it also does this while there is no train. We'll soon find out, I'm sure.
Also, does anyone know what the story is behind this at Federal Triangle?
It appears to be a provision for an additional entrance across from the regular entrance, and past the station manager kiosk. I figure it either was provided for and never used, or was in the original plans, and later eliminated. Does anyone know the story behind it?
And lastly, this is what the destination sign looks like on a Red Line CAF train, taken here at Gallery Place:
Ben F. Schumin :-)
There is a nice informational sign about the CUE buses, though. However, the sign listing the Metrobuses is wayyyy outdated showing things such as the 20A which is now operated by Fairfax Connector and is now 621-623.
Also, here's a question about the "next train" signs: In the past few years, I remember seeing some of them (that weren't being used of course) at former red line terminals like Van Ness and Silver Spring, but not at some other former terminals like Grosvenor and Farragut North. Do any of you have a more comprensive list of which terminals (and former terminals) have and don't have next train signs installed?
RLR
Mark
New Carrollton
Greenbelt
Shady Grove
Farragut North
Dupont Circle
Rhode Island Ave
Ballston-MU
Anacostia
Branch Ave
Huntington
Van Dorn Street
Franconia-Springfield
Van Ness-UDC
Mt Vernon Sq-UDC
Gallery Pl-Chinatown
Addison Road
Vienna-Fairfax/GMU
National Airport
Stadium-Armory (probably obsolete by now)
Silver Spring
Grosvenor
U Street-Cardozo
Fort Totten
As best I can recall, Addison Road, Franconia-Springfield, New Carrollton, Vienna-Fairfax, Greenbelt, Branch Ave, and both Red terminals have them... not sure about Grosvenor or Silver Spring, since it's pretty much set where the trains will arrive. Anacostia HAD them, don't know if they're still there. I don't know if they stayed at Van Dorn Street either (then again, the first time I was on Metro, Van Dorn Street wasn't built... by the time I was on Metro again, Franconia-Springfield was open). I think Wheaton had them in the corridors between each side of the huge platform. Stadium-Armory probably hasn't had them since the line northeast of the station opened. Not sure at all about Gallery Place or Mt Vernon Sq. Gallery Place PROBABLY did, but I'd doubt Mt Vernon Sq ever did, given that announcing where the next train would leave from is really not needed... Yellow only leaves from the southbound track, and Green goes past the station.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Then again, knowing Metro, they'd self-activate when the train's signal cleared for it to depart, meaning only the inbound side sees them used if they're still even active... unless WMATA hooked the sign pointing to the westbound track to the outbound signal.
It appears to be a provision for an additional entrance across from the regular entrance, and past the station manager kiosk. I figure it either was provided for and never used, or was in the original plans, and later eliminated. Does anyone know the story behind it?
Your assumption is correct. This is a knockout for a future surface entrance. When the station was being designed there was talk of demolishing to Old Post Office Building and completing the building that was built during the 1930s to finish the plaza that exists on the west side of 12th Street. As we all know the Old Post Office Building is a historic landmark so there is no chance that the plaza will be completed. The knockout could still be used to access the inside of the Old Post Office Building but no talk of doing so are in the works.
John
Mark
Gee, I thought the shopping center interiors were in the Georgetown Park shopping mall. Oh well, I haven’t been in either of the two buildings in more then 20 years. My memory is starting to slip.
John
I was going to say the same thing but I didn’t recall that there were any station interior seens in the movie.
John
Mark
Another new DC lurker popping up. How many of you are there?
Are you going to join us for the Metro Scavenger Hunt on June 19th.
There's a prize pak you could win.
Mark
Mark
Mark
Mark
p.s.--If you can get a family member to come along, I'd be more than happy to meet up somewhere along I-70, then we can "convoy" down to Shady Grove.
Basically, John and I have designed about 15 different clues centered around the different Metro stations---some are based on the history of the system while others are more technical in nature. The morning of the hunt..teams of three or four will be created and will be given the first clue, which will lead them to a particular station...there they will receive the second clue, which will lead them to yet another station, and so on, and so on......The team that makes it back to the Union Station (the starting point) first will receive several items that John and I are willing to part with...not the least of which is a wall map of the system (the maps used in the stations and on the trains) and others things.
We will be starting at approx. 9:00 on June 19th at Union Station and would love it if you could join us---some of the people participating know nothing about the DC system while others know it quite well...as we create the teams we're going to try to keep it even in terms of amount of knowledge of the system that each team has...so as to not create an unfair advantage.....
E-mail me for more details if you'd like.
Mark
Mark
Chuck :-)
But when you create a layout in Trainz, you can drive any track in any direction - in BVE you can only drive on one track (even with BRR you can't reverse direction).
1. There's virtually no North American rolling stock, scenery, or routes.
2. The first thing you have to do is download two huge patches. The first one makes the game decently playable; the second one was released last week and makes the game excellent.
3. You can't drive underground.
Trainz itself is more suited for dispatching; you can have dozens of computer-controlled consists running about filling up at industries, transporting goods to locations, running passenger routes, etc. It's also incredibly easy to create routes using the in-game Surveyor. Just drag rails around, plop buildings, mold hills and valleys, whatever all with your mouse. All in all, Trainz is not for the person who wants to drive a real route, but more for people who like model railroading.
Visit the game's website at http://www.virtualtrainz.com or the forums at http://forums.auran.com/TRS2004/forum/default.htm if you want more information about the game.
Another person by the name of Jeff Morris made some cars as well, but you can't change their signs and the acceleration is insane. I believe he made an R-1/9, an R-27/30, an R-32, an R-36WF, an R-42, and an R-46.
BTW, the R27 and R30 are available in Red, Brown, and Blue/White.
Check out his website. The subway stuff begins at the middle of page 6 and ends at the top of page 7.
From: 70 Ave and Douglaston Pkwy, Queens
To: E 36 St and Quentin Road, Brooklyn (Quentin Road is like Ave Q)
Saving time is the highest priority (without breaking the law!).
Yes, commutes like that -- from the outer city to the outer city along another radius -- and not good ones via transit. If there were some kind of regional dynamic carpool network, that might allow you to get by without a car. But there isn't.
Still, the B2 only runs every 20 minutes. I'm not familiar with the B100.
If you figure another 5 minutes from Nostrand to Flatbush for the LIRR, 2 minutes from the train to the Q platform, 4 minutes wait for the Q, 18 minutes from Atlantic to Kings Hwy, 10 minutes waiting for the B2 and another 10 minutes for the B2 to get where it's going it isn't such a bad idea. (Purely time-wise it's probably a wash -- but you've only got a 50/50 chance of not killing yourself on a painfully slow bus ride)
CG
36/Quentin is closer to Flatbush Avenue than Nostrand Avenue. On Flatbush the B9, B41 and Q35 run.
Q30 bus to Sutphin/Archer,
LIRR to Flatbush Av,
B or Q train to Kings Hwy.,
B2 bus to E36 St & Av R,
Walk one block to Quentin Rd.
Try to time the Q30/LIRR connection so that the Q30 arrives at least 10 minutes before the LIRR departure.
I certainly hope that this is a one or two time deal and not a regular commute. If it is regular, then you'd better get a car and quick!
New Flyer mentioned to assume a WEEKEND schedule. The B train does not run on weekends.
Being picky now aren't we? Simply put: If you don't see a B comin', hop on a Q.
Q30 to Jamaica
J to Canal St
Q to Kings Hwy
B2 or B100 are near/on Quentin Rd & E 36
The faster option:
Q30 to Jamaica
LIRR to Flatbush Av
Q train to Kings Hwy
B2 or B100 are near/on Quentin Rd & E 36
For time purposes, might as well use option #2 plus you have the City Ticket for the LIRR. Also I'd rather use the B2 over the B100, unless you get lucky and catch the 100.
Q30 to Jamaica
J to Bway-ENY
L to Rockaway Pkwy
B82 to Kings Hwy and E 36th
-or-
Q30 to Jamaica
J to Halsey
B7 to Kings Hwy and E 36th
This is what I orignally had in mind.
Via:
Q30, LIRR, Q train, B2: 1 hour 23 minutes
Q30, J train, L train, B82: 1 hour 38 minutes
Q30, J train, B7: 1 hour 26 minutes
Your choice.
Good thing that gulls can't sue, too.
Shouldn't the motormen have blown the horn when he saw so many seagulls in the track? Or should he have at least slowed the train down a bit?
NOPE!
1) The seagulls would not have reacted to the horn. They hear horns all of the time, usually they denote a slow moving boat in the bay.
2) Slowing down would have been pointless, he could not have done it fast enough to make any difference to the birds, and he could have spilled his geese on the floor, perhaps causing injury, especially if one of them was dringing coffee from McDonalds.
3) Where did you loose your time, son.
4) Seagulls are not an endangered species.
Elias
BTW:
The Railkill count on the Babylon line was 52. AND i didnt pay attention from Kew Gardens till merric. It may have been up to 80!
Thems fighting words to any dog lover (myself included). Dogs have given so much to mankind and have asked for so little.
I've got two right now... both snoring within five feet of me. And as soon as I get up they'll follow me wherever I go. The older one (a nine year old half chow, quarter black lab, quarter Irish setter, 80+ lbs.) can be a real pain in the posterior, and her son (seven years old, 110 lbs., whose father was an Aussie) is dumb as a rock, but I wouldn't trade them for anything.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Listen Elias, what if that was more than just a seagull. What if you decided to bring your small dog or pet bird with you, and it fell onto the track.
Well, the sad fact is, that even if a child fell to the tracks, there is not much that the engineer could do. Yes, he would sound the horn, and yes, he would but the train into emergency, and let the geese fall where they may: but it is quite likely that the child would be killed by the train.
I had thought about this many times. While I was in the NAVY, I saved up my money, when I got out, I bought a (well) used VW micro-bus. Well a dog ran out, and I sounded the horn, but the dog's master also drove a VW, and so the horn was just a "come-on-boy-I'm-home" kind of sound to the dog. I swerved the vehicle and totaled it. So I says: "Next time the dog is toast!" But what if the next time is a child. Well you do what you can.
No I will not lose control of my vehicle over a dog or a cat, (and you know how I love cats!) but will take a risk to save a child or person.
A subway motorman does not have this option. Horns and Brakes are all he has, and that is usually not enough to prevent a death. Practice safety around trains. Around highways. Poo! Just Practice Safety. Don't put yourself where an injury is possible.
Bottom Lion: Poo Happens.
Elias
The motorman stopped. Check the tack and then left.
Yup. He needs to be sure that there was no damage to his trippers.
Elias
Then it would be obvious that you wouldn't do it for a squirrel, either. If it was you driving that car in the Geico commercial, that squirrel would have been roadkill!
but you wont get the big needle for offing a squirrel
And I object to using needles or medications for capital punishment.
If we must have the death penalty, then the electric chair, gas chamber, firing squad or rope is sufficient, and is NOT cruel or unusual punishment.
It lets the exicutioners, the convicted, and all of society to see the impact of their choices.
Elias
I have no problem with killing murderers, but innocent people can be put to death. The death penalty should be reserved for criminals against humanity and then it should be done by hanging (it's traditional).
Capital punishment is wrong.
I have no problem with killing murderers, but innocent people can be put to death. The death penalty should be reserved for criminals against humanity and then it should be done by hanging (it's traditional).
As a Catholic and a Monk, I am *supposed* to agree with you, and so I do. But as you have said, sometimes it is necessary. As a nurse, I object to using a medical procedure for this purpose, and I object to disguising as something else.
As an EMT, I have seen death by hanging, gunshot, CO, and MVCs, not to mention plain old natural causes. Death is a part of life. You cannot have life without death. There is nothing wrong with death, and death is not the end of the world. Executions for trivial matters is obsene, but then so are some of the things that those promoted for the penalty do.
Are we to keep people in prisons for 100 to 400 years until they are old and senile and brain dead anyway? What options does society have? I was talking about this with a county prosecuter: she said "Build more prisons! There is nothing that a prosecutor likes better than filling them up." And most of the people she was convicting was drug users.
It matters not how or when life ends, but what you did in the middle that counts. I take life and death seriously because life is sacred: It is a gift from God.
Prison sentences like that pretty much guarantee that the person sentenced will die in prison anyway, but there's also the chance of having the person's name cleared.
It matters not how or when life ends, but what you did in the middle that counts. I take life and death seriously because life is sacred: It is a gift from God.
I agree.
Prison sentences like that pretty much guarantee that the person sentenced will die in prison anyway, but there's also the chance of having the person's name cleared.
Hey, you can clear their name even after they have been exicuited (for what good it will do them)
The accused murderer of Dru Shadin will now face the death penalty, even though neither ND nor MN have such a penalty. Interstate kidnaping for rape and murder make it a federal offence, and the death penality is a possibility since the accused, a known and recently released sex offender has pleaded not guilty. A guilty plea would have removed the possibility of the death penalty.
About a year ago or so, another such offender pleaded guilty to murder in ND to avoid federal prosecution.
But now there is talk of keeping certain convicted sex offenders in an institution (read mental hospital) after their prison sentance is completed. Would have helped Dru, but... one wonders.
Elias
When my father taught me to drive this one one of the first few things. This was after someone I knew swerved to avoid a dog (in the rain) ended up smacking the curb. Swerve to avoid an animal and you can end up on the sidewalk where the people are.
On the LIRR you'd be amazed at the daily body-count. Not just birds but small and not so small animals, too. One morning last week ago we got 2 gulls passing through Merrick at 75+ MPH and the engineer blew the horn. It's sad for the animals but largely unavoidable.
52 dead animals on the babylon, NYP- Babylon
mike
First of all on service animals: The law in most states (and I believe federal ADA) considers guide dogs for the disabled and police dogs "people" when it comes to laws regarding discrimination in housing, public transit, and other businesses. So you can't exclude them. This is why in many locales, assualting a blind person's dog, a police dog, or a police horse is the same as attacking a person in the eyes of the law.
Whoever said seagulls are rats with wings, they are correct. Seagulls are smart and adaptable creatures. Growing up in San Francisco, I knew what time lunch was at school because I could see the gulls lining up along the top of the building and on the houses across the street. Even more remarkable, they seem to know what time the baseball and football games end, when the racetrack closes for the day, and when the seals and penguins get fed at the zoo. In 2000 after the Giants moved to Pac Bell Park, there were no seagulls at the ballpark. I think they kept showing up at Candlestick expecting a game. One day in 2001, a couple showed up, and as they say the rest was history! They even follow the Golden Gate ferry boats, the snack bar on those boats is at the rear, so if anyone leaves a snack unattended, gone!
Maybe, Seagulls are more like Raccoons with wings. Creatures which have lost their ability to sniff nourishment out of logs because they can really load up on our scraps. I've seen raccoons on the first block of 7th Avenue just below Central Park South rumaging through trash bags. In San Francisco, they're like small bears!
And on hitting critters. I bagged a deer with a rental car near Cooperstown a couple of years ago. The local sheriff's deputy told me sometimes it's better to hit the gas rather than the break in order to protect yourself and your vehicle from greater danger. I'm sure the case of subway or LIRR cars, this is not the case, since they are much bigger than a car or a light truck!
But remember, at that point, it's between the critter, the bumper and the lord!
-Chris
If you want a real experience with trains vs. birds, I was in the cab of a Metrolink locomotive a few years ago, out of Los Angeles for Riverside. We were doing 70 MPH when passing a feed mill with leaky hopper cars...and about 4,000 pigeons scarfing up that grain. Engineer blew the whistle (yes, they has whistles on the locos at the time...fake Hancock whistles) and the whole flock of pigeons took flight. We must have nailed a hundred of them, and when we got to the next stop (Ontario Airport) the engineer got out with the broom and pushed all the carcasses off the nose of the loco onto the ground. There were already hundreds of dead ones there...and guess what, hundreds of crows eatign their deceased cousins' remains.
The crows somehow know to stay clear of the trains.
What was even worse was on the way back in the cab car. Hitting all those pigeons sounded like cannon fire on the front end. I stayed away from the railfan window, the engineer in the cab was ducking down too.
The Abbot hit a phesant with his car. He stopped the car, collected the bird, and we ate it for dinner.
Elias
Now all you have to do is have the Abbot's motorboat run over a caviar sturgeon. Not that he's too likely to be boating in the Caspian Sea, however.
(Extra credit to anyone who knows what I am referring to).
Your pal,
Fred
Well, last spring, I set up some chairs in the courtyard so that we could take a picture of all of the monks. There was some litter (from the roofing contractors) that would have been in the photo, so I walked out to remove the litter.
There was a black bird on the grass watching me with suspicious eyes. She was wary as she watched me. She watched my every move. But she failed to notice that Tillie (the CAT) had followed me out onto the lawn!
Tillie saw the bird, but the bird did not notice Tillie, until the last moment when she precieved her true danger was not me, but Tillie. The bird (making her last mistake) hopped into the garden to hide under a bush.
But the cat saw her and went into the bush after her. But now she couldn't fly for the bush was in her way.
So Tillie ate up the bird.
End of Story.
well, it's only a figgin seagul
West End LCL
Now hope nobody said that already...
Squacking and Feathers Flying!
Tillie (Mechtild) the cat, just caught herself a bird for breakfast.
The bird was jumping and squacking, but Tillie brought the bird into her cat house, and so there is no getting out again for the bird.
Callista (the other cat) looks on in awe.
I'll have to clean the remains out of the cat house once Tillie is done with her special breakfast.
Hey... That's Life! Get one if you can!
Elias
--Mark
You know Elias, I think it's very hypocritical of you to say that. Do you realize that you made 8 responses to this post. 8 responses! And some quite long. Talking about your cat and your monk friends and all that. And you think I need to get a life when your the one who spent time making 8 posts in response to this one!
Also, I whatever Catholic order your part of gives you some good benefits, because I'd hate to see your cat die of eating a dead bird that is diseased. I'm sure it wouldn't be cheap to treat it if it lived. I saw the pic of it with the Broadway Lion, looks nice. & I don't care if a cat kills a bird to eat, thats just it's natural pray, different then getting hit by a train.
And one more thing. I like your new Broadway Lion thing on the side, but I like your old one better. The one where you had the lion on top of a signal near Avenue H station on the Brighton Line I think.
-Broadway Buffer
We are Benedictines, and one of the last houses in the country to operate a farm (well, a ranch) as part of our livelyhood. While I love my two cats, and would do nothing to harm them, I would not be taking them to the vet's either. Now a cow, that is an investment, and we would have a vet to come in to treat them.
A few years ago when one of the cats died (it was winter time), Br. Louie tossed it over the fence by the garden for the birds to eat. It is all a part of the natural cycle of life.
Animals eat other animals all of the time, and do not die from it. Infected or diseased flesh can be obvious to the preditor animal, who will leave it alone. But hey, vultures eat carrion all of the time with no ill effects.
To live in harmony with nature, with God if you will, is to live in harmony with all aspects of life. So while I was a little flippant with my post, the passing of the bird is a part of God's mystery, a part that we must all face.
I have mentioned before that I am a nurse, and an EMT. I have pulled several dead people from cars. People who would have lived if they were wearing seat belts. Or if they had not been drinking. I was there when a 14 year old boy died. He shot himself by accident while cleaning a gun. (He forgot to clean the breach first) He ran up the stairs screaming, and died in front of his mother.
As a nurse, I take care of our elderly monks. All of them eventually die in my care. And I have been doing this for 15 years. Life is God's gift to us, and death is its crown.
Elias
There's really only one major animal species that lacks the natural sense to avoid eating diseased or otherwise harmful foods. It shouldn't be hard to guess what species I mean :)
til next time
This pissed off many railfans, notably myself, as we could no longer look out the rear facing railfan view.
Well, I just learned that Amtrak policy has changed and bussiness class will be placed on the front of each train, closest to the engine. I can only suspect that the reason for this is security concerns. Bussiness class is all reserved and often and is close to personal hanging out in the cafe car. Furthermore there is tight control over who has access to Bussiness Class. I think they are worried about someone gaining access to the engine or the engine-train connection.
Anyway this is a great boon for Railfans as we can look out and take pictures out the back window again. W00t!!!!!
How so, if you just gave it away online for all to read including Amtrak trainmen?
You don't need Mistress England (sorry, meant Private) leading you around on a leash after all :-P
Although I like the idea of the rear car opening up again, I think that someone is a bit TOO concerned with terrorism, and not concerned enough with common sense.
A terrorist simply would get a business class ticket.
**********************************************************************
Hey all you NYC-talkers, get out to the Harold St bridge or an equivelent and take some pics of the REA building while you can. This might be a job for www.forgotten-ny.com
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05032004.shtml#REA
Did they move the yards?
Your pal,
Fred
For anyone interested in Railway Express, V.S. Roseman wrote "Railway Express" which was aimed for model railroaders, but is loaded with pictures of trucks, trains and terminals and information about the company's history.
Harold Avenue has been called 39th Street for quite some time.
**********************************************************************
Well this story is going nowhere in a hurry...which is in itself a victory for brother Bush and his rail naysayers.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05032004.shtml#Florida
I heard a commercial on the radio urging you to go to Orlando, and I-4 isn't as bad as it used to be. That sounds like they improved the enima to be more fun if you ask me.
Rail friendly people as speakers this year is really good news, and I dont' see things going away no matter the ballot outcome. And Johnnie Byrd, I can't figure out if he was pro-or anti-rail or if he's good for the US senate now, but I wish all these other guys, Sebesta, Mica, if they dont' give me interurban rail, gimme commuter and LRT, i'm tired of the talk, And if I was older and remember the early eighties, i woudl be really tired by now.
My last understanding was that the funding was cut off.
PS- I have a question about what type of train will be used, if any. Will it be the turbo/electric 'Jet Train" or an Acela-like electric with cantenary?
I understand the federal congress gives money out to this thing, I wonder if the 9 million so far made it to it's rightful place and they can continue to have meetings.
Like i've said before, the problem is Orlando spent a few hundred million dollars on a system they didn't build, and it would've linked up with whatever alignment that was picked. If this was 1999 and the LRT was completed, there would be no problem. But right now, you have to know to take a bus from disney or the airport to get to you're final place.
All disney ever wants is to be all inclusive. They don't like letting vacationers off their property at any time if they can help it.
As someone who loves choochoos, it's hard to say "no" ... but when it comes to private gain from public money, it's STILL against the law even if the elected don't FOLLOW the law or their oath of office. Now if they wanna build a train that serves EVERYONE and HAPPENS to go by Disney as WELL, ain't got NO problem with that. But EXCLUSIVE? Nope.
Other thing is, Disney is going to build their own station. :)
It's a toughy though, Disney has lobbiest and all that, but they're under the first ever investigation of their government practices(they're their own city legally). So they might not be in great standing right now.
But if you think building a train with public funds for private gain is a no-no, you outta see these roads they keep building based on which developer contributes the most cash to whoevers elected.
Pick one, 429, Suncoast parkway, SR54...who benefits here?
And Bravo for Disney deciding to put ears on a railroad station. I'm sure it'll look REAL purty. Heh. But they should build the rails as well and buy the trains. Hell, infrastructure investment is deductable for a corporation. And I fully agree on the LRT, if not something a bit more substantial. PUBLIC funds should benefit the public, not Disney except as a side benefit of it happening to do the bext good going by there and having a stop, perhaps one near the Universal complex and a few other communities along the way. Disney can always pay for a "super express" in to their place in addition to the OTHER trains. My own issue is that "public money for private gain" especially when it appears to be as blatant as it is ... that's always been illegal.
Those sob's in disney are so cheap anyway. Take the hospitality school "x"(I changed the name) located down the street with probably at least 1/3 of the students are disney employees. They refused to donate any money until they were the only ones out of all the hotels and themeparks in the area to not give anything.
Timeline for construction start: 2 years
[end of run on sentence thread]
Sunday's Orlando Sentinal(which I gotta spend almost FIVE bucks for 50 miles west in tampa, meanwhile miami(350mi?) is 2 bucks and the Post(900miles in DC) is 4 dollars) ranked the 16 Central florida representatives from 1 being best to 16 being worst.
One of the vocal critics in his failed bid to repeal the bullet train, Bob Allen-R- Merritt Island(land of zero traffic and snowbirds) made the list as 15th worse. mostly due to his snubbing voters and the bullet train ordeal.
Yea he's a republican, but *I* see two types of republican's. The jeb repulicans and the george republicans. Jeb is really a conservative fiscally and personal freedomwise. He wants to see zero works working in tallahassee gov't. Whereas george, well you know, no tax and lots of spending, plus inflating the govt workforce. Not to mention the difference in brains and articulation. Plus there is a lot of R's spearheading trains in this state. Mica, Sebasta, Former Mayor, and my favorite, Grecco.
I wonder how much it costs to special order newspapers that aren't regualarly carried, or I can go to the brand new $20million dollar library, ranked nicest to ever exist. :)
But rest assured, I have nothing against trains. Florida can certainly make use of them. But an EXCLUSIVE one, just for Disney? Problem. :)
PRoblem? County now is burdened with all these ex-state funded agencies. Fee's go up. Is that similiar to Cali? I understand it costs an arm and a leg for a simple police report there.
Some article said that's the new GOP fad, hidden taxes. Everythings got it's down side.
I hope the jet-train has a mandated on-board video, should I watch Cinderella or the Lion King? That's where the mouse ears come in. The complementary headphones will have them attached! Maybe the crew can wear a mouse pin, like how pilots of "wings". let's see, what else...i'm sure there's a million. :)
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Well this i bad news. The ARR passenger service is one of the most unique travel tourist things in this country. It would be a shame if it went away due to lack of interest.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05032004.shtml#Alaska
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HA, looks like those MagLev's aren't god's gift to rail transportation after all.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05032004.shtml#Maglev
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Interesting, I don't remember anyone posting about this.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05032004.shtml#MTA
No need for that.
NJT could easily run the Trenton-Philly leg under contract to SEPTA in place of (or in addition to) current R7 trips. Compare Metro-North's operating agreements with NJT (as contacting agency) and with ConnDOT (as contract carrier).
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Well duh, people enjoy having reasonable alternatives to automobiles.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05032004.shtml#Development
I do lie though, out ofthe billions of people, I do know a small handful who would probably never give up driving, but these are the most aggressive drivers in the world, and thrill-junkies. But the truth is, real people find it a joy to get somewhere with no hassle and no auto, and the NYC tourism numbers proves this if you're a shut in.
But I do love my car on Sundays.
I guess I could assume that:
All mass transit non-supporters are anti-tax wackos
Not all anti-tax wacko's are against transit and transporation as a whole.
??
I guess I could assume that:
All mass transit non-supporters are anti-tax wackos
Not all anti-tax [persons] are against transit and transporation as a whole.
??
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Um, haven't they been building "Terminal Towers" in large cities since...well...the 1908 Hudson Terminal?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05032004.shtml#Terminal
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blast, that service really looks as if it was going somewhere.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05032004.shtml#Minnesota
That is soo loaded and pathetic. Who even thought of doing it that way??
After the LRT finally comes online(june 26 I think), and people start to use it, maybe they're do the commuter system with more than play money and bs bills.
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Heh, and BNSF retaliates by droping the B and changing it's name to NSF.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05032004.shtml#Burlington
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Next on the horizon, two-and-a-half-stacks.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05032004.shtml#20
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Wow...a new rail line charter. Don't see many of those these days.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05032004.shtml#AlaskaSenate
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Great, another railblock to Scranton service.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05032004.shtml#Rail
thanks
Mike
MARK HUDAK is an insurance defense lawyer from Uniondale who travels to Lower Manhattan at least three times a week for court appearances.
Like many commuters, he has tested different railroad and subway combinations to try to shave as many minutes as possible from his travel time. His current favored option takes about 70 minutes and involves changing trains at Jamaica and switching to a subway at the Long Island Rail Road's Atlantic/Flatbush terminal in Brooklyn.
Even though the last leg of his morning journey is the shortest, he said, "waiting for the subway is when I consider my work day beginning, because it's the toughest part of the trip. The rest is more relaxed and predictable."
So, like other commuters destined for Lower Manhattan who were interviewed last week at the Mineola train station, Mr. Hudak said he welcomed a plan proposed by Governor Pataki on Wednesday that would finally create a one-seat ride from Lower Manhattan to Kennedy Airport and the Jamaica terminal of the Long Island Rail Road.
"Anything that takes us anywhere near downtown without having to switch to a subway would make perfect sense," Mr. Hudak said.
Ridiculous. The subway change at Flatbush Avenue is a no-brainer, and the ride into lower Manhattan is quick and easy. I cannot imagine how the LIRR could be "more relaxed."
I wouldn't say "quick & easy". There's nothing easy about standing up in a super crowded subway car for 10-15 minutes.
Nor is there anything easy about shoehorning oneself into a microscopic LIRR seat for a half-hour or 45 minutes.
Microscopic? Isn't that going a little too far? Compared to some seats in the subway, the LIRR seats are on par with a friggin' recliner.
Seats on the diesel coaches are pretty nice. Only once did I have an uncomfortable ride on one, and that's because the man sitting next to me must've weighed 450 pounds (he also had a face the color of a ripe tomato and gasped for air the whole time - he's probably in Pinelawn today). The two-across seats on the M-1's and M-3's are okay, so long as your seatmate is not too far above average size, say nothing above 225 or 250 pounds. The three-across seats on these older electrics are terrible, unless both of your seatmates are small (150 -175 pounds, tops). Finally, as for the M-7's .... they're too ghastly to describe any further.
I'm really not that big, about 220, and I'm not unusually wide-hipped at all. Actually, I find the worst part of the M-7 seats to be rubbing shoulders with the seatmate(s) - somehow the seats manage to put their riders' upper bodies in uncomfortably close proximity.
As for airline seats, you are quite right. I doubt I'll ever forget the ludicrously tiny coach seats on Virgin Atlantic to London last January.
"True" NYC residents normally do not have a choice in the matter. If a LIRR type service was available within Manhattan, you would see quite a few "true" residents willing to forego the subway and pay the premium fare in order to use it.
Riding into Flatbush Avenue for the subway transfer may be an ego-popper for some LIRR commuters. They have to stand on the subway, while the Brooklyn residents who boarded earlier have seats. Not easy for some suburbanites to take.
BTW, I always meant to ask you this important question: is Soldkirk the pastence of Selkirk? Inquiring minds need da answers...
Did you mean: Selkirk
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But seriously, if I soldkirk, the partay would be happenin' and everybody'd be invited. Well ... almost everybody. :)
Isn't it amazing though how putting on the TA monekeysuit (the LAST suit you'll ever wear) just completely changes one's outlook on life? Heh.
Did you mean: batman
Do you not understand what is meant by "more relaxed"? Mr. Hudak is comparing his ride on the subway to his ride on the LIRR, where he means that the subway ride is less relaxed and thereby less desirable. The "no-brainer" change to the subway is what Mr. Hudak is saying to be undesirable and he would rather ride in on LIRR all the way.
I just can't see what's the big deal. And I do the LIRR-subway change at Flatbush on a semi-regular basis.
For business people, time-sensitivity and one-seat rides are very important (i.e. "big deals"). If the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Branch were to be extended into Lower Manhattan, expect a huge upsurge of passengers.
I gave the Midtown Direct from New Jersey as but one parallel example. Before the Kearny Connection, all trains to/from Dover terminated in Hoboken, necessitating a change of trains onto PATH to reach Manhattan—not a big deal to folk like you or me, but it made a tremendous difference to many commuters. As soon as Midtown Direct commenced, there were so many passengers riding into Manhattan instead of Hoboken that NJT could not find enough railcars to accommodate them. Were the Atlantic Avenue LIRR line to reach Manhattan itself, the same thing would happen.
Which means that SubTalk, at this rate, would reach 1,000,000 posts on January 3, 2006.
Remember NJ Transit's Midtown Direct? Lots of passengers forsook a "short subway ride" out of Hoboken Terminal in favor of a one-seat ride into Penn Station.
Chuck Greene
I was was impressed at how well the system actually ran , even with the old Boeing cars from 1976.The Type 7's seem to run a little better, and The new type 8's are still having teething problems.
Thanks again to all the efforts by the BSRA for a great trip.
Chuck Greene
I had a blast!
Chuck Greene
1]Philly Gauntlet - Ride ALL rail vehicles in the Philadelphia area [SEPTA Sub-Surface, Route 15, Media-Sharon Hill, Norristown Trolleys, MFSE, BSS, and Regional Rail, NJT ACRL, RiverLINE, PATCO]
2]The BIG RAIL TOUR, this was described in Subtalk post #663923
3]My first WMATA trip in months
4]My DAY trip to NYC - Start and end my NYC trip in Daylight
5]A couple of trips on the ACRL to the shore
and finally, 2 of the the biggest trips[to me], MY FIRST TRIP ON THE CTA [Chicago], and MY FIRST TRIP ON THE MBTA.
I hope to accomplish these trips between now and Labor Day.
Wish me luck!
Chuck Greene
Mark
Does anyone know why the walkway is closed to the IND 8th Av. line?
I'm sure it was more than a few.
Also, anyone know what those gated off stairways are at 14th St.? They have no signs in the tile at all. Just narrow stairways leading up into the wall.
Please help.
THEY had some nice interiors and runbys, brrrrrrrrrrah!
If you have it, wanna run your tape and take photos off the tv or something for me? I been driving myself up the wall trying to find good photos of this line.
I dunn even know if its the same trains you speak of, I'm just saying RWP had
shots of the Paris Metros...
Already pointed out, was never intended to go to SI
- Court Street in Brooklyn
IND.
There is a segment of BMT tunnel to SI under Owls Head Park. Ask Branford's resident tunnel expert for more details ;)
-Broadway Buffer
--Mark
There are several explanations for the longer intervals between trains (a.k.a. lower frequency) on the NYC Subway versus the Tube.
(1) New York has longer trains (ten cars on most lines, 11 cars on the 7 line), so the same passenger capacity is provided with fewer trains.
(2) New York has express and local trains, so that if a route has enough patronage to need x trains per hour overall, it will get x/2 expresses and x/2 locals (say); hence the local-only stations have more extended intervals. This point is somewhat contentious here on Subtalk; most New Yorkers love their expresses, but David of Broadway often points out that some local-only stations have very heavy patronage - like his home station in the Upper West Side - and get an inadequate service as a result of express-and-local. And because of point (3) below, the difference in speed between an express and a local is less than it used to be.
(3) Risk-averse management has put many speed restrictions (enforced by timers) in over the years, as a consequence of various accidents. The Subway goes slower than it used to. Other things being equal, lower speeds mean lower capacity of the line, and fewer trips per day for each train, and hence lower maximum frequencies.
A shame as an express Northern Line would have been fun, as would an express Central Line. Both were actively discussed.
Incidentally, it has occurred to me that passengers from the Shenfield service can reach Heathrow right now, entirely with cross-platform interchanges, no need to hump bags up and down stairs: change at Stratford, Mile End and Hammersmith.
It's London's SAS. And some parts of the present proposals are daft anyway. A straightforward Heathrow to Shenfield (calling at Ealing Broadway, Paddington, Bond Street, maybe Tottenham Court Road, Farringdon, Liverpool Street, Stratford and then all stations to Shenfield) would be more likely to happen. They can add extra branches later.
Crossrail and Thameslink 2000, if both were built, would enhance London's public transport system a great deal, and Farringdon, where the two would interchange, would be a fun station.
Outward:
Wivenhoe, Liverpool Street, Monument, Hammersmith, Heathrow
Return is harder:
Heathrow, Hammersmith, Earl's Court, Bayswater (and pray that nothing stupid happens at Edgware Road), Liverpool Street, Wivenhoe
Both of these rely on the Circle Line working properly, so perhaps I shouldn't be so keen to close this down after all.
On the west side we have Ealing, Richmond, Olympia, Hammersmith, Wimbledon, Uxbridge, Amersham, Chesham, and Watford.
In the east, we have, well Upminster really (potentially New Cross/New Cross Gate).
Thats a lot of spare capacity going to waste.
Tube stock is perhaps slightly shorter (or maybe not) and more or less the same width but significantly smaller in terms of cross-section (height/shape) to fit the circular bored tube tunnels, as opposed to the rectangular cut-and-cover tunnels of the subsurface lines (and NYC subway). A bit like PATH trains only more so.
You can easily see the difference at the odd places where both stock serves the same platforms. Such platforms have a compromise height, and it a goodly step up (6 inches?) into the sub-surface trains, and the same down into the tube cars.
In terms of length, A and C Stock are about the same as IRT cars. D Stock is signifcantly longer (about the same as R32/R40/R42/R143). In terms of width, LU sub-surface stock is somewhere in between the IRT and the BMT/IND.
A Stock: 53'½" x 9'8"
C Stock: 52'7" x 9'7" (DMs), 49' x 9'7" (Trailers)
D Stock: 60'3¼" x 9'4¼" (DMs), 59'5½" x 9'4¼" (UNDMs and Trailers)
R62/R62A: 51' x 8'10"
R142/R142A: 51'4" x 8'9"
1 Circle- Turned to own tracks at South Ken.
2 Ealing -Not stopping at South Ken & Glouceester Road
3 Wimbledon do. West Brompton
4 Richmond- do. West Ken & Barons Court.
5 Hounslow do. Ravenscourt Pk.
6 Circle--------
As the previous train turned off the following one had sufficient headway to run "express"
In addition to'Not Stopping at Mornington Crescent' the Edgware trains did had a passing loop in each direction (with no platforms) at Brent Cross station enabling a train to be passed by the following one and used, I think, from about 1925 to 1936.
While that may be true today, I think that the original purpose of the express lines was two-fold, to increase capacity AND to decrease time spent traveling from certain stations. Read any newspaper article about services back in the day...expresses were touted as the fastest way to get from pt A to B. No engineer would ignore the potential cost savings. If more capacity were the ONLY objective, one could have easily created double local tracks, serving all stations, running more frequently. But I believe that the original design was intended to improve running times between major stations by a third.
The reason why expresses are less time-useful today is because of the current policies implemented by the MTA, with timers and speed restrictions and levels of service.
But I believe that the original design was intended to improve running times between major stations by a third.
The diferent subway lines, each built by a different company had different reasons and goals in building express tracks.
The IRT always expected local riders (from the outlying areas) to ride to the next express stop and then change to an express. You rode a few stops on a local train, chaged to an express into the city. The express trains filled up, but the same local train would see a complete turnover of passengers every few miles until it got near midtown, when of course everything was stuffed.
The IND had the same sort of an idea, except that locals would not go into the city at all (witness the GG and HH trains). The IND also contrived its stations so that once into the CBD there is NO ADVANTAGE whatsoever in switching to an express from a local.
Now, witness the existing 6th Avenue Line. It is all about CAPACITY and has nothing to do with speed. The Bronx trains happen to ride on the "express" tracks (and happen to skip 23rd and 14th Streets), while the Queens trains happen to ride the "local" tracks. This is purely a matter of convience in moving through the interlocking plants and has nothting to do with "The (B) is Really a local and should be on the Local Track and the (F) is really an express and should be on the express track." No, 6th Avenue does not have express and local tracks it has Queens tracks and Bronx tracks. The Bronx Tracks go to Brooklyn via the Bridge, the Queens tracks via the Rutgers tunnel. There the extra two stops on the Queens Tracks are irrelevent to the issue.
In the CDB, "express trains" tend to operate to and from primary business locations, while "local trains" will include neighborhoods that are primairily residential. OK, the (1) train does take on WTC and the Financial center, but it is the only train on that line; and yes the BMT has only local service to the financial district, but that too is a quirk of how the system was built (ie express trains over the bridge) rather than any plan on the part of the BRT. The Fourth Avenue Local goes through the Montegue, the Express trains go over the Bridge. And *that* is a *capacity* issue, albeit played out in Brooklyn rather than in Manhattan. But remember, then the BRT (BMT) was built, these were separate cities and BRT had little interest in Manhattan other than to dump its passengers off at City Hall.
: ) Elias
I don't like the zone system in London....one flat fare works much better and trips in NY can be as long as London (205 St to Coney Island is pretty long eh!)
Trains seem to crawl at times in London; especially the District and Circle lines which I am most familiar with.
LU is much more passenger friendly in that most of the stations in central London have indicators telling how long till the next train and what route it will be taking. When there are delays, there are annoucements made of alternate routings. Such basic necessities are totally lacking in NY.
But one must remember that on both systems, we are stuck with what was built long long ago and travel patters today are not the same as they were in the 19th century when many parts of both systems were patched together. As such, the agencies running the systems are forced tomake it up as they go along.
Zoned fares get LT extra money on a system that is pretty well at capacity, which makes pretty good business sense. it has always been a principle in Britain that the further you go, the more you have to pay.
Reminds me of a bridge we had in the Long Island area years ago that charged a toll...a close inspection found that 99% of the toll went into paying the toll collectors and maintaing the toll barriers. I wonder if anybody has ever done a study of just how much it is costing to maintain this primitive zone system?
(2) The London system used to be much more variable than it is now, with separate fares calculated by distance between every possible pair of stations, and originally with individual printed tickets for every possible pair of stations! The relatively "coarse" zonal systme is a fairly recent introduction.
(3) The London barrier system is quite reliable and, despite New Yorkers' fears, swiping at exit gates doesn't cause much congestion (any more than the natural congestion of a very heavily used rapid transit system). London had magnetic-strip tickets, and the associated barriers, long before MetroCards appeared in New York, and the technology has had a long time to iron out the glitches. A smart card system (Oyster) has now been introduced which seems to work o.k. too; you just touch the card on to a yellow circle on the gate, and no swiping is required, in or out, so things are speeded up.
(4) It is true that the tube is more generously staffed than the subway, at least at busy stations in central London. The staff are useful to passengers, since they are out-and-about on the stations, and they are generally polite and helpful, though there are always exceptions. So far as total staff cost is concerned, though, you have to remember that the trains are OPTO, which save a lot of salaries. What they save on the train staff they spend on the station staff, to some extent.
Obviously, I'd like the Underground to have a *cheap* flat fare, but the political willingness to subsidise the tube out of taxation to achieve this doesn't exist. A London flat fare would need to be high. A zonal system, far from being "primitive", seems fairer to all csutomers. And of course cheaper alternatives exit, ranging from season tickets for regular commuters to go-as-you-please one-day Travelcards for visitors - which cover all public transport within the Greater London boundaries, including commuter rail - and bring down the per-ride price.
wayne
You were there before the dollar plummeted against the pound.
I'm wondering what pass you got that cost that much for seven days? Even today a zone 1-6 weekly travelcard is £38.30 (monthly is £147.10 and yearly is £1532).
Still, though, looking at what that pass costs and comparing it to NY -- immagine someone living in the Bronx, working in south Brooklyn and having to pay $261 a month for their Metrocard!
Aside from the high fares, lack of a railfan window, no air conditioning and no express rides, I must say I enjoy tube travel far more than our subway here from the perspective of a passenger. Shorter headways, shorter trains (i.e. less platform walking required!) and convenient service patterns make the trip most pleasing. Also, I find the high staff presence and the onmipresence of security cameras very reassuring from a safety point of view. I will be going back over for about 3-4 weeks in August and I can hardly wait!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.6 Now Available!
I got the impression when in London last January, an impression that was reinforced by some discussion here, that the outer terminals of Tube lines tend to be in reasonably upscale areas. As a result, higher fares for outer-zone commuters may not be as big a financial burden as they would be in New York, where the subway line terminals tend to be in more modest areas.
Aside from the high fares, lack of a railfan window, no air conditioning and no express rides, I must say I enjoy tube travel far more than our subway here from the perspective of a passenger. Shorter headways, shorter trains (i.e. less platform walking required!) and convenient service patterns make the trip most pleasing.
Agreed, especially as regards to the shorter headways.
I'm wondering what pass you got that cost that much for seven days? Even today a zone 1-6 weekly travelcard is £38.30 (monthly is £147.10 and yearly is £1532).
My guess is that it was last year's fare for Zones 1-D (now £57.10). Monthly is £219.30, Annual £2,284.
Single (excl Zone 1) £1.80
Single (incl Zone 1) £2.80
Off-Peak ODTC (excl Zone 1) £3.80
Off-Peak ODTC (incl Zone 1) £4.80
Peak ODTC (excl Zone 1) £4.70
Peak ODTC (incl Zone 1) £7.90
"Single (excl Zone 1) £1.80
Single (incl Zone 1) £2.80
Off-Peak ODTC (excl Zone 1) £3.80
Off-Peak ODTC (incl Zone 1) £4.80
Peak ODTC (excl Zone 1) £4.70
Peak ODTC (incl Zone 1) £7.90"
I doubt if very many Off-Peak one-day travelcards excluding zone 1 would be sold. The main market for these is tourists or other occasional visitors to London. You can't cross London by tube without entering zone 1, and visitors are unlikely to know the bus or national rail routes that would let them avoid zone 1. Many of their likely destinations would be be in zone 1, too.
I also doubt whether many of the expensive "including zone 1" single tickets would be sold, either. Commuters have season tickets. Tourists use one-day travelcards, and at your prices it would be worth buying an offpeak ODTC for just two trips: £4.80 is less than 2 x £2.80. Some peak-hour travellers have tube zone 1 as an add-on to their national rail tickets, at a discount from the regular zone 1 fare. Off-peak, from anywhere in the southeast of England you can get a ODTC that covers one round trip on the national rail train to London plus unlimited all-zones travel in London; the London element of this fare is at a discount below the price of an off-peak ODTC and it is worth getting one of these if you are travelling off-peak even if you are only travelling on the tube in zone 1. Canny occasional travellers using the tube to travel in from the outskirts of London might get the £1.80 ticket and get off at the last station in zone 2.
One small comment- "2- Every possible pair of stations"
Maybe in the early days but before 1933 stations had their own individual "Zones" so that one ticket was issued to cover all stations within the same fare zone. Also most tickets could be obtained from 'Ticket and Change "machines using coins (not many people offered notes for penny fares)
Staffing at each station isn't a function of the fare system- it's about 2/3 a person per faregate plaza, rounded to the nearest integer. The faregates need to have some thinking power, to look up the station & calculate the costs, but not much more than you would see in a machine that has two figure out if the farecard is within a 2 hour transfer period. All gates can serve as either ingress or egress, depending on what the station manager sets (Manhatten's system still requires in gates, and some form of outgate). Processing of farecards takes ~ 5 seconds once you got used to the system- not that much in a delay (stations also tend to be sized appropriately for peak flow, at least in downtown- some suburbs have grown up). You do have a few extra machines within the paid fare zone to maintain (Addfare machines), but with WMATA pushing the Spartrip sensor card, these could cocievably be eliminated in the medium term (~5 yrs; our parking is supposed to go to Smartrip only this summer).
The biggest problem I've seen are people who don't understand how the fare system works. Quite a few tourist groups will try to buy one larger value farecard that they can all use, when the system is one card per user.
That is true to a considerable extent, but, the London Underground has continued to expand (e.g., the Jubilee Line, the DLR). New York has not had any comparable projects on that scale since before most of us were born.
Indeed, as people love to point out on this site, New York actually has less rapid transit service than it had in 1940, because numerous elevated lines were torn down and not replaced.
The DLR is not technically part of the Underground, though since Travelcards are valid on it this doesn't have much practical effect. There is also the Croydon Tramlink, and the Heathrow extension of the Piccadilly Line. We have lost a few bits though - Ongar, Aldwych, and Acton Town to South Acton; and Harrow & Wealdstone to Watford Junction and Finsbury Park to Moorgate via Essex Road now have national rail trains but no Undergound trains.
One factor is that more routes in NYC share the same tracks than in London, where more routes are self-contained.
Point well taken. That is the right basis for comparision (apart from the question of three-track sections in New York).
What I meant to say is that the London tube lines are self-contained in that, e.g. no branch of the Central line is served by any branch of the Piccadilly, Jubilee, Bakerloo or Northern. Each tube line has a core route and its own branches (if any).
In New York, lines also have core routes, but there are many cases where a single outer branch is served from more than one core route. Examples include the #2 and #5, the #3 and #4, the E and F, the B and Q, the A and B, and the V and R.
The frequency of service depends on whether all trains on the line go to your destination or only some of them.
More choice of destinations translates into lower frequencies, as you well know! New York makes a virtue of "flexibility".
With - as always - the odd exception. The Piccadilly and Metropolitan share tracks from Rayners Lane to Uxbridge; the Piccadilly and District share tracks from Acton Town through Ealing Common station to Hanger Lane Junction (if that's what it's called); and the Bakerloo shares tracks with Silverlink trains between Queens Park and Harrow & Wealdstone.
There are also various links betweem lines for the purposes of empty stock moves and access to depots, etc. The Victoria Line is totally self-contained - in the sense that rolling stock has to be loco-hauled over National Rail tracks to get it from the Victoria Line to anywhere else on the tube.
I thought there was a connection with the Picadilly Line near Finsbury Park.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/columnists/ny-nysub103795101may10,0,2028347,print.column?coll=ny-ny-columnists
Eddie asked me for my name and address so that he could send me copies of the map. I'm thrilled.
I can't wait to get it. I'm going to make a killing with it on Ebay
"From the tantalizing snippets we've been shown, I'd say he's a black-belt master at presenting graphical information," said one.
"I never thought I'd like something that was in some ways a reversion to the 1967-76 format," said another. "But I hope the MTA seriously looks at it."
"Fresh, clean design," still another posting said. "It could still use a little tweaking, but I like it. This may very well become the next NYC subway map design. (I'm sick of The Map!)"
Not a single mention of the negative comments. Hmm...
My issue isn't with the map itself, but with Mr. Sanchez implying that "the buffs" unanimously worship it.
-Alargule
The separate lines for each letter will become jumbled in smaller formats, and in fact the letters within will not be readable. Now you've made it worse than the current map; because there's a bunch of lines the same color without any way to tell what each means.
He's included too much information as well. His complaint was that The Map is cluttered with bus transfers, ferry transfers and the like. His is cluttered with neighborhood names and landmarks. So, what's the difference?
I never much liked the newer maps, but I'm probably in a minority. I did the rolling "walk-up information window" thing when I wore my TA monkeysuit, and I've observed that more people seem to walk up to that rolling walkup window than back in my day, clutching "the map' and pointing furiously as the walkup window rolls away to the next stop.
Maybe tourists have more brain cells. (grin)
Da Hui
Nah, let me have some fun with this, I am going to create my own version of the map, I don't like Eddie's Design, I'll just derail it, with my own map. I think Eddie's Train needs to stop. I just hope the MTA rejects the map.
Nah, let me have some fun with this, I am going to create my own version of the map, I don't like Eddie's Design, I'll just derail it, with my own map. I think Eddie's Train needs to stop. I just hope the MTA rejects the map.
Finally Ray Sanchez should find something more imporant about to chose to write on the subways. Is he only writing it because of his status, what about an average everyday person? Makes me wonder what person gets priority on his list... (Harsh I know)
Christopher... From what I've been told, Ray Sanchez is open to his reader's ideas about his column. If you want to contact him, try this:
ray.sanchez@newsday.com
Click here
Brighten it up a little bit, and then it'll be OK.
Even so, I have to admit your map is better than mine - the two main problems with mine are 1)it's too damn big and 2)I have no way of distinguishing part-time, off-peak services. The only thing I could think of to solve the latter problem is to represent night service with a dotted-line hollow circle and show part-time service with the solid hollow circle currently used for night service.
-Alargule
The "Monodirectional Route" designation wouldn't be used on the real map.
There are also some problems with geography. For instance, the #7's new stop at West/Vesey is shown below Cortlandt St, but in fact Vesey is north of Cortlandt.
I've never met Ray Sanchez, but I'm hoping to transfer the midnight map onto the surface of a skee ball...
Oh, and BTW, has anyone ridden in the Copenhagen S-Tog trains (they're very stylish)?
Probably cost. The prototype R-142s (hacked-up retired R-17s) had one end cut off as a provision for a through-way.
I'm right in saying that the MTR in Hong Kong has trains with through passage, and they have pretty big cars (perhaps even bigger than any in NYC).
Apples and Pineapples!
Cars are made for lines, and lines are mad with certain cars in mind.
Articulated Trainset - 85' cars. NO PROBLEM! You make the curves more gentle, you keep walls and other wayside further from the train. You can run anything you want, as long as it fits the ROW.
Doublestack Containers on 5 pack articulated flatcars. No Problem, we run them over here all of the time. You *can* build whatever you like, and you can retrofit tunnels too, some tunnels have had the floors lowered to let double stacks in. No Problem.
But can you imagine the GO necessary to make something like that happen here.
ROFLMAO
I'm not sure what you have in mind, but do keep in mind that the location of trucks on a subway car (especially the 75' cars) is an exact (very exact) science. On NYCT they are set back somewhat from the end of the car more than what would be the case on say the LIRR. If the trucks are too close to the ends of the cars then the overhang in the middle of the car would strike walls and platforms.
Having set them back a bit rom the ends of the cars, the penalty is that the swings at the ends of the cars are greater. When an NYCT 75' car moves through switches from one track to the other the storm doors are offset by the size of the storm door: i.e. either door would be facing a blank wall. Given the fact that there is no front porch on the 75' cars (the door is flush with the end of the car, esp at the "B" end) the situation could prove to be fatal for persons passing between the cars, and determental to any equipment that you might have thought to use to connect a passage between them.
While suitable connectors are possible: LIRR and AMTK do it all of the time, they are not possible on the subway. The best subway solution was the articulated car. I do not know if they have been seriously looked at since the BMT was taken over by the dark forces of Red Hylan, but that seems to be the way of it.
Elias
As for trains in Copenhagen, are you offering us plane tickets? Many of us work for a living and do not have unlimited vacation time.
But not unlimited holiday time-off. The USA is not as liberal as many European countries in that respect.
The new NYCT cars come in 4 and 5 car units. Taking one car out of service means disabling half a train. The riders are treated to the car shortages resulting from unitized trains without the benefit of a safer passage between cars.
Articulated units are possible, and they HAVE run on the BMT in many different iterations. Only the D-Type still come out for a railfan trip once in a while.
The size of the cars and the locations of the trucks are the controling factors. As long as each car rides on two trucks, this cannot happen, leastwise not in the subway system where sharp curves and inter-car shear factors are the norm.
Now if an articulated train were to be built, the cars would be 30 to 40 feet in length, and joined cars would ride on a common truck. The controling factor become the mid-car clearances with the walls and platforms. Take a look at a 50' IRT car, and measure how far apart the trucks are. That is the limiting length for the cars, since they must share common trucks, and trucks fruther apart would cause too much belly hang.
Certainly nice light weight carsets can be made to run on the subways.
An IRT train is 500 feet long. So four 125 foot carsets might make up one train. Trains might have three 41 foot cars or four 31 foot cars.
Id probably go with the shorder 31 foot cars, because either way you will only get two side door sets per car, so the shorter cars would give you 32 doors per train, where as the 41' cars would give you only 24 doors per train. present IRT trains have 30 doors per train.
Oh, I'm well aware. Good thing that the elder trains are not so configured. Looks to me like a repeat of the prior articulated-car mistake, after a fashion. Fixing that which is not broken. At least it's half a train versus the whole train, when one looks on the bright side . . .
The riders are treated to the car shortages resulting from unitized trains without the benefit of a safer passage between cars
So much for learning from history, eh?
These Deep Level Tube Line trains (height above rail- 9 ft.6 ins.)do not allow sufficient headroom for articulation.
I think you're thinking of the Stata Center that is across the street. It was designed by Frank Gehry, and dedicated last Friday. It houses the Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory, the Department of Linguistics and Philosophy, and the Laboratory for Information and Decision Systems.
It's MIT's new building that will house the Department of Brain and Cognitive Sciences. The "Grand Junction" track (owned by CSX, and used for MBTA commuter rail non-revenue moves between the north side and south side -- as well as freight), travels through the building. Or more accurately, the building was built around the track.
It's going to be interesting to see if vibrations from the trains rattle the petri dishes :-)
It's at the corner of Vassar St. and Main St. in Cambridge, MA.
Another note on the photo... you'll note that the designers were good enough to leave enough room for double track, in case one of the pie-in-the-sky ideas to turn that into a light-rail ROW some decades from now comes to pass.
Your pal,
Fred
Sometimes I sit in the front of the house
Sometimes I sit int the back of the house
Right now I'm in the middle of the
Interesting P.S. they were playing the Bridgeport Bluefish ... last year I watched M-N & Amtrak action all night there !
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
Well, that's how they get families to pack the place, but you are right.
BTW, got a very nice group of photos from another SubTalker who was at a recent Bluefish game. The field & players were not the main subject of the shots
Mark
It's interesting how the group I do these games with don't mind me working in some railfanning.
The good view of the Ben Franklin Bridge is from the third base side; the good view of the Philly skyline is from the first base side.
Bridgewater was just great, i.e. over the Outter Bridge on 440 which became 287 to exit 12. We left Flushing at noon, got their in time for lunch & some brews at the hotel. The ballfield was one more exit & we wanted to get their early for the dufflebag give away.
Mark
Da Hui
Hopefully the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre Red Barons will soon be in this category. The Electric City Trolley Museum excursion trains are planned to take people to a spot near the stadium, where you will be able to walk (or maybe catch a very short shuttle bus ride) up to the stadium.
There is also freight action, so another railfan friendly kind of place.
You left out one key phrase in that sentence... it should read "for what was formerly the most beautiful ballpark on G-d's green earth". When they put the lights in it was ruined forever.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(formerly of 7600 N. Greenview - corner of Greenview and Howard - back when Wrigley was as dark as the Cub's chances, but we loved 'em anyway)
I know... but the lack of lights was part of Wrigley's charm. I attended one game that was called on account of darkness after about fourteen innings with the score tied at something like 8-8 and went back the next afternoon; the opposing team (don't remember who) homered on the first pitch, the rest of the inning lasted about five minutes, and then I got to watch the Cubs get hammered again. But hey, it was two great afternoons at Wrigley, so who cared?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's like referring to the Vet as Shibe Park (or Connie Mack Stadium) or even Citizens Bank Park as Shibe Park (or Connie Mack Stadium)!
Matt
There's a west coast ballpark built adjacent to Amtrak yards (is it Angel / Anaheim Stadium?) where you can hear train horns throughout every game.
The lattice girder that supports the roof has been strengthened by placing an H beam under it along the entire platform.
On the IND Manhattan -bound platform. a new room was built on the mezzanine about 4 feet in front of the first stairway. Unless this stair is going to be removed, they did not leave any room for people to walk.
I finally know what material will be used for the wall: the wire-mesh you see on the BMT Jamaica and West End lines.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
So, You should be proud that there is a new generation that enjoys railfanning, but whatever, do whatever you want.
You are not the head honcho of this BBS system, and you don't decide who and who doesn't join. Yes it would be a shame if this place was wrecked, but adults can wreck it too, not just kids (sheesh that pissed me off), so just say, "I'm not going to let this board get wrecked" so we can safely assume that anyone can/could do so. Not just kids.
Listen, who cares if you're pissed if kids are on this board. Waah. No one cares. Stop bitching and don't make another post like this that not only wastes valuable bandwith, but wastes not only your time but ours. You can have your opinion, but the way you are acting out your opinion is childish, I have classmates that have acted more maturely.
There, I said it.
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
The only "kids" I'm aware of that post on this board are CDTA and 4traintowoodlawn. The former posts in an illegible, non-sensical fashion, while the latter makes well-typed posts that are usually enjoyable.
So....what kids are ruining this place?
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
CG
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't think he is the most hated person on the board.
God, I think I'm more mature than some people these days.
I've said what I have to say,
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Old ones retired numbered from 600 - 770s and were built in the early 1960's.
Newest ones number up into the 2,000s. They are low floor and very easy for travellers with luggage to make use of.
Sentimal issues aside - the new trams are great! The low floors speed access and egress. Acceleration and braking seem smoother.
Sidebar - It's no longer possible to buy a week long pass for the system. Maximum pass for us tourits is a 3 day unlimited. But it's still a good bargain.
If these new trams suffer catastrophic failure in large numbers, has enough of the old fleet been stored to roll back into service until a fix can be found and implemented??
But it's happened in other places too. For example, NYC was so fixated on retiring their R1-R9 cars that they ordered replacements with seriously flawed designs. The R46s that were intended to replace R1-R9 were delivered between 1974 and 1976 with a badly engineered truck that would crack under fatigue and in at least one case - caused a derailment. Problems were known and yet scrapping of the R1-R9s continued at a steady pace. By 1977, the last R1-R9s were taken out of service and headed for the scrapper - not mothballed for service in case needed.
Around 1980, the increasing frequency of truck failures on the R46s made the news. All sorts of public fingerpointing solved nothing. Service had to be reduced and some very tired R16s and R10s were pressed into service in an attempt to cover for frequently out of service newer trains. Another solution was to swap trucks from R44s to R46s. But this caused more service reductions on lines serviced by R44s.
Bottom line - NYCT should have mothballed at least half the R-1 - R9s so that in the event of a crisis, adequate equipment would be available.
Apparently - the same is true here in Amsterdam.
I wonder if the reason why the old Amsterdam trams were not at least briefly mothballed is one more of space to store the cars or cash for selling the old fleet off?
It seems to me that a small number of Combinos could have been ordered for a somewhat higher cost per tram and that these could/should have been service tested for at least 2-3 years. Perhaps in that time, the weakness would have shown up and the problem could have been fixed in advance of ordering a majority of cars to replace the fleet. And if this had been done, the taxpayers would have gotten a better deal.
I've seen this kind of mistake before. But it seems big city transit agencies are driven by the economics of mass orders and not by prudent evaluation.
Think of all the badly engineered vehicles that have been ordered in the US without proper evaluation in mass numbers:
* Boeing Light Rail (drove Boeing out of rail car business)
* Ikarus
* R46 subway cars mentioned in previous post (drove Pullman out of rail car business)
* Grumman 870 buses (nearly ruined Flxible as a bus manufacturer and caused thousands of replacement orders with GM and other competitors when the Grummans were just a few years old)
I could go on but I'm sure you get the point - lots of bad decisions made by Transit Authority bureaucrats who only undestand up front costs and assume they'll be someplace else when long term costs are finally obvious.
Warning signs is a fifteen-minute fast-paced video presentation on the key aspects of system security for transit employees. It will increase the viewer's awareness of what to look for and what to do regarding suspicious activity, packages, devices, and substances.
LINK
Here's that image I was referring to:
And here's the latest theme in Boston:
Again, I've encountered no problems with taking photos in CT, RI and NY, both state and city. I was approached by an Amtrak Police officer on Friday in New London, who asked why I was taking photos and when I informed her that it was my hobby, she asked for Photo ID and took down my name and address. Oh, she said to stay off the tracks and to have a good evening. Contrasting this with the posts of harrassment in NJ, I really don't know where this is all going.
Your pal,
Fred
--Mark
You can see a piece of a departing R-46.
Your pal,
Fred
No tour of Coney Island is complete without a ride on the Cyclone!
Yeah, we got that too! A baseball cap, pen, paper stuff, and other things too!
Officials say that the tunnel, nearly 14km long, will be strong enough to resist earthquakes measuring up to nine on the Richter Scale.
It is expected to be completed within four years.
From the newsroom of the BBC World Service
Too bad all this new subway contstruction is thousands of miles from any place where I'll get to ride the finished lines.
Mark
Imagine that sort of time schedule in New York? I can't.
Mark
There's other reasons, I'm sure, such as the fact that in many developing countries regular people don't have nearly as much voice in this kind of decision as we do here in the USA. But I'm sure the comfort level is a big factor.
Mark
Mark
Would be nice for SAS.
:-)
Returning to Istanbul, this is good news for railfans, but I would feel a pang of regret if it led to abandonment of the ferries, which add considerable interest and liveliness to the scene in Istanbul.
CG
The PO never came. When March came along and the annual "ditch the money or suffer a cut in the next cycle" they tried to put the PO through but it got sidelined in administrivia. They STILL want it, we wrote and built it last year for them at great expense and now ... barum pum. Al D'Amato of course is willing to put it through, but for more money than we'd get paid. Ah, gotta love that good old GOP shakedown. And they call the demos crooks. :-\
Neither the Long Island Railroad nor Metro North are civil service agencies, they do not have civil service tests, nor do they hire from lists.
Yes, they may be hiring, and yes, they are equal opportunity employers, in that they do not discriminate on the basis of race, color, gender, etc etc... but they do have the right to look you over, and decide then and there if they like what they see or not. If you have a friend, or better yet a relative working for the railroad, then your chances go up by hundreds of percentage points.
Is it fair? No
Is it legal? Yes
Is it a good business practice? Yes
In private business, trust and confidence are a big factor in employment: and these may be known or infered by your connections.
First Impressions are MOST IMPORTANT. I was once in the position of hiring people for Good Humor out on Long Island "back in the day", and I made my decission on somebody the instant they walked in the door, before they ever opened their mouth or produced a document.
THAT *IS* how important a first impression is.
Elias
Not all the time. Plenty of businesses have incurred heavy losses due to bad judgment exercised when hiring, and many good people have been overlooked due to same.
Yes, of course you are correct. Nepotism is one of the primo ways of getting incompotent employees: but on the whole it seems to work well, and that is most assuredly the way LIRR hires people. Yes, many hundreds of good people fail to screen for eployment, but we are talking hundreds of applicants for each job, so this is a point that becomes moot.
Mostly, hiring in a business is done at the shop level, not the corporate level. A manager hires the person that he or she needs, and then sends them down to personel for the paperwork.
Being a railfan is NOT an obsticle to being hired by a railroad. Being a RABID IDIOT is, and that is a matter of "First Impressions"
My Father worked for NBC Television, he went to school at RCA Institued when he got out of the Navy, and found a job with NBC. I had been into the studios with him on many occasions. I knew some of the people and the TDs that he worked with, and if I been inclined to follow that line of work, I might have asked around, and maybe could have been hired. That is how life is in business.
Elias
Instead you chose a slightly different career :)
That paragraph contradicts itself. Any employer who gives preference to relatives of existing employees is emphatically not an equal opportunity employer. Similarly, if they reject people purely on the ground of their superficial appearance without ascertaining anything about qualifications, education, job experience, they are seriously - and probably illegally - discriminatory.
That paragraph contradicts itself. Any employer who gives preference to relatives of existing employees is emphatically not an equal opportunity employer.
Actually, it does not. It *was* carefully crafted to avoid that.
The *are* equal opportunity IN AS MUCH as they do not descriminate on the basis of race, sex, etc... etc...
The son of a black man has the same chance as the daughter of a white man.
Similarly, if they reject people purely on the ground of their superficial appearance without ascertaining anything about qualifications, education, job experience, they are seriously - and probably illegally - discriminatory.
And *that* is not so at all. If you come into the office looking like a glom, they are not going to call you back. I cannot tell you how much first impressions are worth! You MUST make a superior first impression.
But a major problem is, many places do not hire off of lists or resumes in a personel office. Managers in business frequently have the power to hire, and then tell the office whom they hired and put on the payroll. The personel office keeps the records and handles problems.
Elias
It's possible that some cops are doing this just to "assert" themselves or to snap up some photography equipment. But I believe that the main problem is human nature. We want to do "our" job "as best as we can" but we end up grasping at straws. If a terrorist wants to record NJT's pland, equipment and operations, it's not hard to conceal a camera. I can see (and record) the comings and goings at a major northeast transit hub from my office building. No NJT cop would ever know, nor would Homeland Security. I hope some influential railfans develop a meaningful dialog with the authorities and this problem is solved. There's should be no problem here, really. Say the Bayonne police see me shooting the LRT. So they ask me who I am and run a check. I'll (hopefully) come up clean and everybody's happy. If it turns out that I was on a "watch list," then the authorities know that they might have a problem. The camera confiscation does no good, as cameras don't blow up buildings.
It's not an opinion; it's fact that taking a picture of anything and everything from a public street is perfectly legal, and confiscation or destruction of property as the result of such activities is perfectly illegal.
It's only 7 feet long....
You can link it yourself, I'm NOT promoting this oversight.
"you just can't get the New York ones anymore"............ unless you are IN new york!
Don't blame the teekers (how did that term come about?), blame those who are willing to pay such high prices on ebay.
$420 is definetly ridiculous. I could see it going for somewhere between $30-$50 on ebay if the timing was right. Otherwise maybe $15-$35.
I would say that between now and early next year expect things like this to appear. Hopefully the bidders will be smart and pass these items by.
Chuck Greene
One day, I plan to visit Boston to check out MBTA's system.
By reading about MBTA's Green Line, it reminds me of Muni
Metro in San Francsico where I occasionally visit.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Your pal,
Fred
I was up in Boston May 1 and 2. I rode the Orange line the southern end, some maps show the E meeting up with the Orange line there. Yet when I got to the end of the line, there are trolley tracks, but the line doesn't go to the Orange line anymore. Yet a few maps show it as going there. What's up with that? And is this anyway related to the missing "A" branch?
The "A" branch was the Watertown line, discontinued in the late 60's I believe.
Sorry it is so dark...
Not, in turn, that doing that would be such a bad idea--the forced use of the underpass is a nuisance at best, although it's unlikely that there's any way around it short of building an entire new station under the current one or something, which sounds like a novel idea but is almost certainly impossible, if for no other reason than the difficulty of getting the tracks down so deep as they come in from either end.
Or perhaps instead, could a sufficient junction between the express and local tracks be built south of the station instead, perhaps knocking out some of the old 91st station in the process? Unfortunately the express and local tracks are at significantly different elevations there, so it might be more difficult than it at first seems.
Also, how would moving the 1 onto the local affect timing? As it is currently, during non-peak times it's scheduled so that the 1 runs about as frequently as the 2/3 combined, so that stations between 96 and 135 on Lenox get service as frequently as stations on the 1, and express and local service along the main trunk is about at the same frequency. If the 1 ran express, it would have to see a significant drop in service so that it didn't overcrowd the 2--or perhaps the 2 would just have to be majorly cut, as the 3 will have to increase service since it will be the only local anyway. Perhaps if there were a really capable track switch, there could just be a system where the 1 runs local below 96th st., the "9" runs express below 96th st., the 3 runs local below 96 and the 2 runs express below 96, with all of the northern terminals remaining the same. Obviously, this 9 would run more frequently and more of the time than the current one, and there would not necessarily be a skip-stop service uptown.
Of course, all this theoretical work might also widen the platforms at 96th St., add elevator access, and generally spruce up a sad-looking station.
Any ideas?
I have read your proposal, and having used that station for 2 years, I wonder what could be done.
Here is a track layout:
It would help if you forget about the express/local designations for a moment, and look at what is really there. The Inboard tracks serve Lenox Avenue, the outboard tracks server Broadway. So the 96th Street station is fine just as it is.
Imagine a six track main line south of 96th Street. The Broadway Lion could branch off from the local tracks and dive down and under the existing line. Next Stop: 42nd Street! Then there would be room for a cross over from the center platforms to the existing local tracks (again we are looking south of the station) where (3) trains could then move to the local track.
(1) becomes the "Broadway Limited" on the new lower level tracks.
(2) remains the "Broadway Express" on the existing express tracks.
(3) becomes the "Broadway Local" on the existing local tracks.
The only sticky merge at this point becomes moving the northbound (3) back onto the Lennox Tracks before it moves into 96th Street Station. But it would only be backing up the Local Track, and would not block the Broadway Limited.
ACH... I'd rather build a new 9th Avenue Subway.
Elias
The F tracks reconstructed so that they descend at a steeper grade (say about 2 to 3%) Tracks to the Lenox Line duck under the local tracks using switches that could handle higher speeds (40 MPH max), then build a ramp up to the BB tracks with a double-Y (4 tracks to 3) connection south of 103 Street.
This would require extensive digging and possibly either single-tracking the line north of 96th Street or severing the line entirely between Central Park North and 96th Street, with bus service running along 110th Street.
Amtrak
WMATA
MBTA
PATCO
SEPTA
NJT
NYCTA
SRR
Philadelphia Zoo (monorail-before it closed down)
NHIRR
How about railroads did you take pictures of and ride on?
PATCO
NJT
NHIRR
Last, but not least, what NYC subway lines have you rode on?
1
3
Chuck :-)
Septa
Patco
NJT
River Line
HBLR
Amtrak
WMATA
Marc
BART
SF Muni
MBTA
NJT
LIRR
SEPTA
NJT
NYCTA
MN
PATH
Amtrak
WMATA
HBLR
Orlando Airport Monorail
Disney Monorail
Strasburg
Cape Cod Central(despite the old LIRR equipment, biggest waste of money ever)
I've used a number of them:
Amtrak
NY MTA (LIRR, Metro-North, SI Railway, Subway)
NJ Transit
PATH
MUNI
BART
MBTA
SEPTA (Regional Rail, Subway-Surface, Els but not P&W yet)
PATCO
WMATA
PATransit (Pittsburgh LRT)
Metra
CTA (Chicago Loop/Subway)
Santa Clara County Transit (LRT San José CA)
C-Train (Calgary Canada LRT)
ETS Edmonton Light Rail (Canada)
RER (Paris Métro)
IE/CIE
British Rail
London Transport (Underground)
Blackpool Transport (England, Blackpool tram)
New Hope & Ivyland
Black River & Western
Connecticut Valley RR
Branford Trolley Museum
As for pix, I have a lot of them stashed in my basement.
Long Island RR
·Port Jefferson(Washington? Not the one that goes into Woodside)
·Babylon Line (only to Lynbrook)
·Hempstead Line
·Ronkonkoma Line
·"City Terminal Zone"
Metro-North RR
·New Haven Line (Grand Central to Rye)
New Jersey Transit
·Northeast Corridor Line
·Some other line that goes through Newark, this was a decade ago, don't remember what the heck it was
New York City Transit
·The entire system!
Port Authority Trans-Hudson
·The entire system
South East Pennsylvania Transit Authority
·Broad Street Subway, all except the Ridge Spur
·Market-Frankford Line, entire length
·R6 Norristown to North Philadelphia
·R7 Trenton to Market (East?) Station
·Route 11, entire length
·Route 100, entire length
Amtrak
·Northeast Corridor Line, New York-Washington
Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
·22nd St to Exchange Pl
Long Island RR
·Port Jefferson(Washington? Not the one that goes into Woodside)
·Babylon Line (only to Lynbrook)
·Hempstead Line
·Ronkonkoma Line
·"City Terminal Zone"
Metro-North RR
·New Haven Line (Grand Central to Rye)
New Jersey Transit
·Northeast Corridor Line
·Some other line that goes through Newark, this was a decade ago, don't remember what the heck it was
New York City Transit
·The entire system!
Port Authority Trans-Hudson
·The entire system
South East Pennsylvania Transit Authority
·Broad Street Subway, all except the Ridge Spur
·Market-Frankford Line, entire length
·R6 Norristown to North Philadelphia
·R7 Trenton to Market (East?) Station
·Route 11, entire length
·Route 100, entire length
Washington Metro Area Transit Authority
·Blue Line, Capitol South to Crystal City
·Green Line, Greenbelt to Gallery Pl-Chinatown
·Orange Line, Capitol South to Federal Center SW and L'Enfant Plaza to Federal Triangle
·Red Line, Glenmont to Metro Center
·Yellow Line, Gallery Pl-Chinatown to Crystal City
Regional and Commuter
NYCTA (all of them that currently run and a few long gone routes)
SEPTA (subway, el, trolleys, light rail, and regional commuter)
BART
Chicago El (Red Line mostly)
Tokyo subways and regional rail
Sapporo subway
London Underground
Montreal Metro
Toronto
NJT
PAT (Pittsburgh) trolleys (when they ran everywhere)
PAT light rail
B&O RDC Pgh-McKeesport inagural run (1954?)
DC Transit trolleys
WMATA Metro
Baltimore light rail
Berlin U-bahn (into East Berlin pre-unification)
Geez, never thought about this before. Longer list than I would have imagined.
and this summer
Durrango and Silverton RR
Sounds like an adventure.
New York City Subway
AllPATH
AllStaten Island Railway
AllHudson-Bergen Light Rail
AllNewark City Subway
AllPort Authority Airtrain
AllLong Island Railroad
Entire City Terminal Zone Port Washington Line Main Line Babylon Line Montauk Branch east to Patchogue Far Rockaway Branch West Hempstead Branch Long Beach Branch Hempstead Branch Oyster Bay Branch Central BranchMetro-North Railroad
Hudson Line between Grand Central and Croton-Harmon Harlem Line Port Jervis Line Pascack Valley LineNew Jersey Transit Rail Operations
Main Line Bergen Line Morristown Line Montclair-Boonton Line between Walnut Street and Hackettstown Northeast Corridor Line Princeton DinkySEPTA Subway
AllSEPTA Trolleys
Entire subway Route 10 Route 36SEPTA Regional Rail
Center City Tunnel R1 Airport between Eastwick and Center City R2 Warminster R5 Thorndale between Overbrook and Center City R6 Norristown R7 TrentonSEPTA Other
Route 100PATCO
AllWMATA
Red Line between Twinbrook and Union Station Orange and Blue Lines between Foggy Bottom and Capitol SouthMBTA
Green Line between Lechmere and Copley Orange Line between Back Bay/South End and Downtown Crossing Red Line between Central and South Station Blue Line between Aquarium and Government CenterLIRR
NYC
PRR
AMTK
NJT
CNW
ATSF
JNR
HKHR
(yes, I know that's pitiful...)
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
Nearly Completed or Complete:
NYCTA - probably 85% covered. Haven't been railfanning enough to tie up the loose ends.
PATH
MNRR - need to go north of White Plains, and entire West of Hudson.
LIRR - everything except Hix - Greenport, Hix - Babylon, Bayside - Port Wash, Glen Head - Oyster Bay and Huntington - Port Jeff
NJT - missing M&E west of Suffern, Boonton line west of Little Falls, Montclair connection, Point Pleasant - Bay Head (1 stop!). Raritan Valley Line, Atlantic City Line.
HBLR - only done Exchange Place - 22nd.
Not even close to completed but ridden:
SEPTA
Baltimore light rail
WMATA
MARC commuter
Boston subways, never set foot on commuter rail there
SEPTA
Amtrak
Bonn (Germany) light rail
Cologne - Bonn (Germany) commuter rail
BART
Seattle Trolley
CTA
METRA
MARTA
Miscellaneous Monorails, People Movers and other thingies:
EWR Airtrain
JFK Airtrain
Disney monorail
SFO airtrain.
Atlanta peoplemover
MCO (Orlando) peoplemover
Las Vegas peoplemover
MSP (Minneapolis) peoplemover
DFW (Dallas) AAirtrain
Probably other Airport peoplemovers that I've forgotten. It's hard to remember which ones have them and which don't (since they tend to be so unmemorable...)
CG
Regards,
Jimmy
Photographed:
See *s
NYC Subway Lines:
A
B
C
D
E
F
J
L
M
N
Q
R
42nd St S
Franklin S
V
W
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
9
-about 45% to 55%.
LIRR:
-only a part of the Port Jefferson and possibly the Babylon branch.
In my eyes, I've covered little ground because I have other things to tend with as of now and I lack a digital camera. I aim to explore more as soon I purchase one (hopefully by late June).
On a side note, what do LIRR enthusiasts recommend for riding for good photo ops?
Sacramento Regional Transit
-ligth rail
San Francisco Muni
-historic cable cars
-historic streetcar F line
-Muni Metro(ligth rail)
Santa Clara Valley Transit Authority(VTA)
-ligth rail
San Francisco Bay Area
-BART
-Caltrain
Northern California
Amtrack's Capital Corridor line
Sacramento Regional Transit
-ligth rail
San Francisco Muni
-historic cable cars
-historic streetcar F line
-Muni Metro(ligth rail)
Santa Clara Valley Transit Authority(VTA)
-ligth rail
San Francisco Bay Area
-BART
-Caltrain
Amtrack's Capital Corridor line
NYCTA (complete, except for the White Plains Road IRT section)
Metro North - Harlem and New Haven, complete
LIRR - Penn Station to Shea Stadium (I'm told)
Shore Line East
Amtrak
MBTA
BART
MUNI
San Diego Trolley
Montreal subway
D&RGW Ski train, Denver to Winter Park, CO
Durango & Silverton, CO
Cumbres and Toltec, NM
Essex Steam Train
Deutsche Bundesbahn
Municipal trains in Hamburg
Mt Washington Cog Railway
Branford Trolley
I'm not going to count the monorails ridden at Busch Gardens in Tampa or the one at the NY World's fair in 64. Nor am I going to count any amusement park scale model trains.
How about riding in one of those rail fitted pickup trucks over UP in Nevada? That count?
Defunct:
New Haven RR
NY Central
MJ Myrtle Avenue BMT
Deutsche Reichsbahn (DDR)
Penn Central
Conrail (A friend and I hopped a freight in Danbury when I was 19. No drama, the train was at a standstill. After about 500 feet, the train stopped and we decided it was a silly idea so we hopped off. Turns out the train would only have gone to Shelton!)
I've hardly ridden the LIRR and have never ridden SIR in Staten Island. They're on the list, as is AirTrain and the Metro North Hudson line. That's locally as there are many more worldwide I'd like to try.
Your pal,
Fred
NYC Lines I have ridden on...
N
R
F
G
USA: Amtrak, Boston MBTA, NY Metro-North, NJ Transit, Philadelphia SEPTA, Baltimore MTA, Washington WMATA, Chicago CTA, Los Angeles MTA, San Francisco BART/MUNI, and once or twice on the New York subway.
Canada: VIA Rail, Montréal Métro STM, Toronto TTC.
United Kingdom: British Rail, Eurostar, London Underground LT, Glasgow Underground SPT.
France: SNCF, Thalys, Paris Métro & Réseau Express Régional RATP.
Belgium: Brussels Métro STIB.
The Netherlands: Amsterdam GVB.
Germany: Deutsche Bahn, Berlin U-Bahn BVG, Berlin S-Bahn DB.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Cant remember what else, but I think this is it.
I'll keep listing as I keep on remembering. :p
AIRTRAIN
NEWARK AIRTRAIN
-Entire System (even many not in normal revenue sevice trackages)
LIRR
-Entire System (including local LIC line), except for the Belmont spur
Metro-North
-Entire System, including Port Jervis, and excluding the Spring Valley line
NJT
-Northeast Corridor Line
Staten Island Railway
-Entire System
Amtrak
-Pacific Coast Route from San Diego to San Francisco
-Northeast Corridor from Washington to Boston
-The Adirondak Route
-Tampa to Daytona
-Amtrak from Grand Central
-Ethan Allan (Rutland to Whitehall)
-
PATH
-Entire System
AirTrain
San Diego Trolley
-From Downtown to San Ysidro
BART
-Market St to Richmond
MUNI (San Francisco)
-All Cable Cars
-Market St PCC line
-One of the Light Rail lines, but forgot what it's called
RTA (New Orleans)
-St Charles Line
-Riverfront Line
-Canal St Line (part)
Miami
-Forgot what it's called, but they had some sort of rapid transit system that I rode part of
Green Mountain Railroad (Vermont)
Bellows Falls to Chester
Strasburg Railroad
-Strasburg to Paradise
Coaster
-San Diego to Oceanside
Las Vegas
-Balley's to MGMGrand Monorail
-Mandalay Bay to Excalibur
-Mirage to Treasure Island
-Bellagio to Monte Carlo
Disney Monorails
-Disneyland - entire system
-Walt Disney World - entire system
Small Amusement Park and Zoo Railroads
Palisades Amusement Park
Lake Compounce Amusement Park
Great Escape Park
Indianapolis Zoo
Columbus, Ohio Zoo
St Louis Zoo
Hershey Park
Six Flags-Great Adventure
Rye Playland
I guess this makes me a railroad. And this doesn't even cover transit systems,trolley museums, inclines,monorails and guideways.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Chuck: Don't go. It no longer runs. I rode it in 1978 and 1979 and then it replaced by one of the log flumes.
For the record it was called the Woodland Express. It had a phony steam loco and a few open coaches. It was a simple loop and the trains ran anti-clockwise. There was a three track yard which included the main track and a total of three trains. No tunnels or bridges.
Larry,RedbirdR33
NJT: NEC Line entire length; NJCoast Line NYP to Point Pleasant Beach; Morristown Line NYP to Morristown; RVL NWK to Dunellen
SEPTA: R7 Line Trenton to Market East; R1 Airport Line 30th St. to one of the Terminal stops
LIRR: Jamaica to Merrick
Metro-North: Grand Central to White Plains and Hawthorne (Harlem Line); Grand Central to Dobbs Ferry (Hudson Line); Grand Central to Rye (New Haven Line)
Amtrak: NYP to CHI on the Lake Shore Limited; TRE to CHI and PGH on the Three River Line; TRE to WAS on a Metroliner; NYP to BOS on a Metroliner
Subways and Light Rail
NYCTA: entire system in the late '90s
CTA: entire system in 2001
Boston: entire system in 2002
MARTA: entire system in the late '80s or early '90s
PATH: entire system
River Line: Trenton to Camden
Philadelphia: Market Frankford Line 8th St. to Spring Garden St.
WAMTA: parts of the system in 2000
PATransit: one of the light rail lines (which I can't recall right now)
Miami-Dade: one of the lines in the system (don't remember which) a few years ago
Good question; it really made me think back to all the public transit I've used in my life via rail. Some of these I haven't used in a long time like MARTA and Metro-North.
Koi
Staten Island Railway entire length
Correction: WAMTA should be Washington, DC Metro
Koi
Adirondack
Algoma Central
Amtrak
Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe
Baltimore & Ohio
BART
BC Transit
Boston & Maine
Brig-Visp-Zermatt Bahn
British Columbia Railway/BC Rail
British Rail
Burlington Northern
California Western
Caltrain
Canadian National Railways
Canadian Pacific Railway/CP Rail
Central of Georgia
Central Railroad of New Jersey
Chesapeake & Ohio
Chessie System
Chicago & Eastern Illinois
Chicago & North Western
Chicago & West Towns
Chicago, Burlington & Quincy
Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul & Pacific
Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee
Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific
Chicago South Shore & South Bend
Chicago Transit Authority
Cleveland Transit System
Clinchfield
Conrail
DART
Delaware & Hudson
Denver & Rio Grande Western
Detroit & Mackinac
Detroit Department of Transportation
Deutsche Bundesbahn
Dominion Atlantic
Erie Lackawanna
Esquimalt & Nanaimo
Ferrovie dello Stato
Furka-Oberalp Bahn
Gornergrattbahn
GO Transit
Grand Trunk Western
Greater Cleveland RTA
Green Bay & Western
Gulf, Mobile & Ohio
Illinois Central
Illinois Central Gulf
Illinois Railway Museum
Interstate
Lahaina, Kaanapali & Pacific
London Transport
Long Island
Los Angeles County Regional Transit Authority
Louisville & Nashville
Magyar Allamvasutak (Hungary)
MARC
MARTA
Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority
Mass Transit Administration
MAX (Portland)
McCloud River
METRA
Metrolink
Metro-North
Michigan Northern
Missouri Pacific
Monon
Monticello & Sangamon Valley
Nacionales de Mexico
Napa Valley
Nevada Northern
New Jersey Transit
New Orleand Public Service
New York & Long Branch
New York Central
New York City Transit
New York, Susquehanna & Western
Niles Canyon
Norfolk & Western
Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District
Northern Pacific
Old Town Trolley (Tucson)
Ontario Northland
Osterreichische Bundesbahnen
FC del Pacifico
PAT
PATCO
PATH
Penn Central (I never rode the pre-merger PRR, surprisingly)
Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines
Pittsburgh & West Virginia
Providence & Worcester
Reading
Regie Autonome des Transportes Parisiens
Regional Transit (Sacramento)
Regional Transit Authority (New Orleans)
Rhaetian Railways
Richmond, Fredericksburg & Potomac
Roaring Camp & Big Trees
Sacramento Southern (CSRM)
San Diego Trolley (MTS)
San Francisco Municipal Railway
San Pedro & Southwestern
Seaboard Coast Line
Seashore Trolley Museum
Seattle Municipal
SEPTA
Sistema de Transporte Collectivo (Mexico City)
Societe Nationale des Chemins de Fer Belgique
Societe Nationale des Chemins de Fer Francais
Soo Line
Southern
Southern Pacific
Staten Island Rapid Transit
Strasburg
Swiss Federal Railways (SBB)
Toledo, Peoria & Western
Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo
Toronto Transit Commission
Tuscola & Saginaw Bay
Union Pacific
Valley Transit (San Jose)
Vermont
Virginia & Truckee
WAMTA
Western Maryland
Western Pacific
Wisconsin Electric Railway Museum
Yolo Short Line
Plus local rail transit, names of operating entity not recorded, in Frankfurt, Nuremberg, Koln, Rome, Bern, Zurich, Budapest
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
I guess that's it
Amtrak California
San Joaquin (Bakersfield-Oakland)
San Diegan (Los Angeles-San Diego)
Pre-Amtrak
Penn RR (NYP-Washington DC)
Southern RR? (Washington-Salisbury, NC)
And hopefully this summer:
Silver Meteor Hollywood, FLA-NYP
Connecting to ??? NYP-Providence RI
Also, MBTA commuter rail Providence-Boston
and maybe some "T" routes in Boston
Atlanta, GAsubwayBaltimore, MDlight rail and subwayBoston, MAlight rail, subway, commuter rail, and Mattapan streetcarBurlington, VTcommuter railChicago, ILL, Metra, and South Shore LineDallas, TXlight rail and commuter railHouston, TXlight railLondon, UKundergroundLos Angeles, CAsubway and light railMemphis, TNhistoric streetcarMiami, FLMetrorail and TriMetMinneapolis, MNhistoric streetcarMontreal, QCMetroNew Jerseycommuter rail, Newark City Subway, HBLR, RiverLINE, PATCO, and PATHNew Orleans, LAstreetcarNew York City, NYsubway and LIRRParis, FRANCEMetroPittsburgh, PAlight railPhiladelphia, PAall of SEPTA's rail, all modesPortland, ORMAX and streetcarSacramento, CAlight railSt. Louis, MOlight railSalt Lake City, UTlight railSan Diego, CAlight rail and commuter railSan Francisco, CAsubway (BART), light rail (MUNI), cable car, and historic streetcarToronto, ONsubway and streetcarWashington, DCMetro
Plus I've ridden Amtrak's City of New Orleans, Silver Meteor, California Zephyr, Surfliner, Cascades, Acela, and tons of other NEC trains, and a route from Paris to Madrid.
Mark
Subway/Metro:
Amsterdam GVB
Atlanta MARTA*
Boston MBTA
Chicago CTA
Frankfurt U-Bahn
London Underground
Milan Metro
Montreal Métro
New York NYCT
Paris Métro
Rome Met.Ro.
San Francisco BART
São Paulo Metrô*
Toronto TTC
Washington WMATA
Light Rail/Streetcar:
Amsterdam GVB
Boston MBTA
London Docklands
Milan Streetcar
San Francisco MUNI
Seattle light rail thingy
St Louis MetroLink
Commuter Rail/Metropolitan Train:
Frankfurt S-Bahn
Paris RER
São Paulo CPTM
National Rail:
USA - Amtrak
Germany - DB InterCity Express (the most BADASS form of transportation I have EVER ridden!!)
Italy - TrenItalia
Netherlands - NS
People Mover:
Chicago O'Hare International Airport*
Frankfurt Airport*
London Gatwick Airport*
Hartsfield Atlanta International Airport*
Miami International Airport*
Miami MetroMover
Monorail:
Disney
Seattle*
*Ridden entire system
Light Rail:
San Francisco
San Jose
San Diego
St. Louis
Cleveland
Pittsburgh
Jersey City
Newark
Boston
Dallas
Commuter Trains:
Philadelphia
NYC
Chicago
London
Bombay
Dallas
City Transit:
Boston, subways, light rail
NYC, most subways, only a few LIRRs
Jersey City, light r.
Newark, light r.
Philly, subways, Patco, city & suburban trolleys
Wash DC subway
Miami, subway, people movers
Tampa, streetcar
New Orleans, streetcars
Chicago, els, subways
Pittsburgh, light rail
SF, Bart, cable cars, light r.
LA, light r. and the subway
San Diego, trolley
Mexico City, subway and a ride on the *last* PCC line
Montreal, subway
Toronto, subway, light rail
London, subway
Paris, subway and T1 and T2
Brussels, subway, light r.
Later next month
Orleans, Fr. light rail
Hamburg
Hannover (soon the entire system in one day)
Berlin
Essen
Düsseldorf
Wuppertal (Schwebebahn)
Cologne (entire high platform network in 10 hours [with Bonn high platform lines])
Bonn
Frankfurt
Darmstadt
Stuttgart (soon the entire system in one day [wait for discontinue of line 15 or converting of it to Stadtbahn])
Karlsruhe
Munich
Vienna
Lyon
Monte Generoso,Switzerland Rack railway
Niesen, Switzerland funicular
some other funiculars and cable-cars (like Roosevelt Island Tram) in Switzerland
ICE (300 km/h)
Soon the entire system of Strasbourg
AirTrain
AMTRAK
BART
CTA
DC Metro
LIRR
MetroNorth
MBTA
NJT
NYCTA
PATCO
PATH
Seaboard Coastline
SEPTA
A, B, C, D, E, F, M, N, Q, R, S, W, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Metro-North New Haven Divison NY-Stamford
LIRR "7 Shuttle" (Flushing Main Street-Shea Stadium); May 25, 2003
NJ Transit Morristown line (Hoboken-Denville), Main Line (Waldwick-Hoboken
PATH (Hoboken-WTC)
SEPTA Market-Frankford, Subway Surface (34)
Amtrak NortheastDirect/Regional #191 Newark-Washington; #174 Washington-Newark, September 1998
MBTA Red, Orange, Green
London Underground (Central & Circle)
Paris Metro: 1, 3, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 13
Montreal: 1 (Green), 2 (Orange)
Toronto TTC: Younge-University-Spandina (Yellow)
Thalys (Brussels-Paris)
New Hope & Ivyland Railroad, New Hope, PA
Black River & Western Railroad, NJ (Three BridgesFlemington-Ringoes-Lambertville)
Steamtown NHS, Scranton, PA
Morristown & Erie Railway
What was this?
Amtrak
NJT
SEPTA (both subways, commuter, subway-surface, streetcar lines)
PATCO (both before and after conversion to PATCO; I still have a Camden 2.5 cent subway add-on token)
PATH
Newark City Subway
NYC (Subway, LIRR, Metro North, Church Avenue and Coney Island Avenue Trolleys [when I was 5 years old])
MBTA (Commuter, Subways, and streetcars)
SF (BART and Muni streetcars and cable cars)
Chicago (CTA)
Cleveland (Red, Blue, and Green)
Pittsburgh
Baltimore (MARC, Metro, Lt. Rail)
Washington (Metro, MARC, VRE)
Atlanta
Miami (Metro, People Mover)
Dallas (Light Rail)
New Orleans (both lines)
Toronto (subway, streetcars, RT, Railway to Niagara Falls)
Montreal (metro, and elevated train through Expo '67)
Frankfurt (U-Bahn, S-Bahn, tram)
Munich (U-Bahn, S-Bahn, tram)
Stuttgart (U-Bahn, S-Bahn, Zahnradbahn [Cog-wheel-train], tram)
Hamburg (U-Bahn, S-Bahn)
Vienna (U-bahn, old Stadtbahn, tram)
Zurich (tram)
Barcelona (TMB, FGC, Funicular)
Madrid (Metro, cable car)
London (Commuter, Tube)
Paris (Metro, RER (A, B, C), SNCF)
Amsterdam (Tram, Metro)
Copenhagen (S-Tog)
Malmo to Lund, Sweden (Commuter)
Mainz, Germany (meter-gauge tram)
Mannheim and Ludwigshafen (jointly operated meter-gauge tram with U-bahn sections)
Deutsche Bundesbahn (German Federal Railway)
----also-------
Baltimore Streetcar Museum
National Capital Streetcar Museum
Entire DisneyWorld Monorail (Videotaped from front window)
Various airports (Tampa, Orlando, Dallas, Atlanta)
Miniature Railroads in parks (Wheaton and Cabin John, MD., Harrisburg, PA, Disney World)
One of the highlights of our 100th Anniversary will be a special exhibition titled “Centennial Celebration” at our recently reopened Brooklyn facility. The exhibition is scheduled to open in September 2004 and run into early 2005. “Centennial Celebration” will bring together unique and rare artifacts and archival “treasures”- icons relating to the opening of the suytem in 1904 and key moments (such as the signing of the Dual COntracts and the opening of the IND) in its history.
To supplement the rich collection of objects in the museum collection, we are asking other area museums and private collectors of subway-related memorabilia to consider loaning pieces for the exhibition. Please contact me at "subwaycentennial@yahoo.com" if you have pieces that might be appropriate.
Thanks,
Carissa Amash
Associate Curator
New York Transit Museum
Phil Hom (a sys admin type person)
Taken Saturday Morning on Broadway in the Bronx.
If you're trying to be funny, you have failed miserably.
I won't use the other filtered word as an example because it's uncouth. I only use it when I do as a protest against the filter.
Sorry to those who are offended but I can't stand blurry pictures
My main camera is a Sony Cyber-shot DSC-P31 2-megapixel camera. It's almost 2 years old, and my next camera will probably be the DSC-P93.
I also sometimes borrow my brother's camera, which is a Canon Power-shot A60 2-Megapixel.
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
Anyways, I have an Olympus C-3000z and a Canon AE-1 Program (film).
I told ya this thing could photograph ass. :-)
Of course, remember to look at the pix of others.
Especially Brian Weinberg's (Sir Ronald of McDonald).
Click here for his excellent site.
Thank you for asking SubTalk a very good question. :-)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Awesome.
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
YOU USED FLASH! That's a NO NO! All you did is to wash out the front of the train set. As you can see on down the platform, your camera did have adequate light.
wayne
How long ago did you buy it? It wasn't even that much when I got mine last December (although they haggled us for $400 anyway with free batteries and a huge memory card).
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Your pal,
Fred
I was thinking about getting a camera phone, but I got a Nextel instead. NP David takes pretty good pics with his Sprint.
Not to be bragging, but here is my website.
-Chris
Now, I have a FujiFilm FinePix A210.
This Is What I Live For...
wayne
The photo on this site are of good quality. What set up do you personaly use?
You may use a *camera*. You man NOT use a *setup*.
Lights, flash, Tripods and other accuterments are not permited in the subway. So any camera that takes decent photos in limited light will work just fine. As a guideline, the BIGGER the lens is (in diameter) the more light it can pull in. But most digitals are very forgiving if you can hold them steady enough. You cannot us a tripod, but if you can find something convient to prop it or your self on to brace it, you ought to be able to get good photos.
And don't fret about not being able to use flash in the subway: You cannot make good flash pictured down there anyway: even the best flash is only good out to about 20' and most little camera flashes are only good to about 8', and all that using them will do is to fool the camera into thinking that you have adequate light, when in fact you do not.
Elias
Koi
Here are some of my recent pics:
111 St/Roosevelt Av
111 St/Jamaica Av
111 St/Liberty Av
Better?
My camera is a Sanyo 5300 Picture Phone from Sprint.
My opinion is that it's unimaginative and piss-poor. In other words, it stinks. The beer sucks too.
Your pal,
Fred
mumble....damn common sense....mumble....good point.
Yeah, I'll live with ads if it keeps the fares affordable. This one just pissed me off because it aesthetically slapped me in my face. I'll get over it and rant about something else. Maybe if I used the advertised product...
Your pal,
Fred
-Adam
(allison500r@aol.com)
Your pal,
WC Fields
They're both f*****g close to water.
It's just a vehicle, it has no grace whatsoever. Nothing is disgraceful to it. If you do have a vehicle with grace, the money spend on making it graceful could have been put to better use.
It demonstrates utter disrespect for the transit user. Would MBTA executives permit advertisements on their personal automobiles? I think not.
This doesn't sound like a good analogy. The transit vehicle is not your personal vehicle, and I must say, if someone was willing to pay me to put an advertisement on my car, I would accept it, except there is no market for that.
Even worse are the "wraps" that restrict the view of passengers in the car or bus.
Sure it's bad, but is the revenue lost from people who no longer wish to ride in such a vehicle greater than the revenue gained from the advertising? Probably not.
Wraps also present a security issue, as a crime could occur in the vehicle and would not be easily observable by a witness outside.
Then install cameras on the vehicle. If making a vehicle visible from the outside could prevent crime, than such crimes would only occur in desolate areas, while the vehicle is traveling to fast for anyone to notice, or in a tunnel.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I suggest we all contribute to his legal bills.
If he was on a public sideway/street, it is legal, and I see no reason why he won't win this. Stick it to em.
Your pal,
Fred
In a perfect world, yes. Trouble is, real change comes from someone getting their ears boxed in in a lawsuit.
Your pal,
Fred
(For the record, a fascist believes that the state is more important than the individual—nothing more and nothing less. The term presumes nothing about the fascist's potential behavior, merely his beliefs concerning the right political system.)
Then the label is appropriate.
To the tune of Every Sperm is Sacred, from Monty Python and the Meaning of Life
There are Greens in the world
There are Dem'crats
There are Libertari-ans and then
There are those that follow the "third way," but
I've never been one of them
I'm a U.S. fascist
And have been since my lobotomy
And the one thing they say about fascists is:
Say bye-bye to your liberty!
You don't have be in Al-Qaeda
For us to detain you all week
You don't have to be a subversive. You're
A terrorist the moment you speak!
Because
Every thought is dang'rous
Every thought has weight
If a thought's not pro-Bush
I get quite irate.
[DEPT OF HOMELAND SECURITY]
Every thought is dang'rous
Every thought has weight
If a thought's not pro-Bush
We get quite irate.
[TOM RIDGE]
Let the pinkos claim their
right to speak free speech
We shall make them pay for
each lefty thought they teach
[DEPT OF H.S.]
Every thought is captive
Every thought is ours
All the opposition
Belongs behind bars
[KARL ROVE]
Law and the Supreme Court
Deal in Civil Rights
But, post Nine-Eleven
We just want to fight
[CABINET]
Every thought is dang'rous
Every thought has weight
[WHITE HOUSE STAFF]
If a thought's not pro-Bush
[DEPT OF H.S.]
We get quite irate.
[BUSH]
Every thought is captive
[TOM DE LAY AND BILL FRIST]
Every thought is ours
[SENATE]
All the opposition
[HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES]
Belongs behind bars!
[DEPT OF H.S.]
Every thought is molded
Every thought is owned
[ARMY COMPANY]
Bush owns everybody's.
[SOLDIER #1]
Mine!
[SOLDIER #2]
And mine!
[DEAD SOLDIER]
And mine!
[CHENEY]
Let the lib'rals keep their
Unpatriotic ways.
[WHITE HOUSE PORTRAITS]
Bush shall lock them up for
Each time they call for change.
[ENTIRE REPUBLICAN PARTY]
Every thought is dang'rous
Every thought is ours
All the opposition
Belongs behind bars
Every thought is dang'rous
Every thought has weight
If a thought's not pro-Bush
We get quite iraaaaate!
The Post's conservative bias makes it the logical outlet for this particular story.
What we have here is another example of post-9/11 paranoia, which will not go away without legal challenges and media coverage.
I saw no mention of photographic activity once private property was entered.
The article that I read said that photographs were taken from the public sidewalk, then the photographer took the shortcut through commonly-used private property and was accosted there by the anti-camera morons.
Indeed the photographer may have taken pictures only from the sidewalk, but by entering private property right in front of the guards, with whom he'd just had quite an altercation, he was in effect begging them to do something. That's going to weaken his case. It would be much better for a photographer's rights test case to be one in which the photographer acted in a completely blameless manner yet was harrassed - and there certainly are many situations like that.
According to the article, the trespassing charge was already thrown out in court.
That could prove to be weak as a prescriptive right over that area would take several years (10 in NY, IIRC) to ripen. If it has, he may have a case if there is a public access easement over which he walked (by prescription, not necessarily deeded). The news story itself states "The buildings surround a courtyard that Upper West Siders use as a short cut to West End Avenue."
Otherwise, he stepped onto private property, and rolled the dice...
Your pal,
Fred
"Porat crossed the street but kept taking pictures and then walked through the courtyard. There, another guard demanded to see his pictures and his identification, but Porat refused - and the guard told him he was under "civilian arrest.""
There's no mention of when he stopped, either.
"Porat crossed the street but kept taking pictures and then walked through the courtyard."
This sentence clearly indicates he entered the copurtyard after he ceased taking photos.
This white collar looking guy was stopped for doing what I bascially like to do. Snap photos of every friggin thing down to the sidewalk. And he get's questioned. Okey, but to call the police and get a swat team to come over? COME ON! Don't these people watch the news?
I see only one type of crazy we need to watch out for, and unfortunately there's enough of them to populate the moon(my humane solution). I don't think this guy with the camera is going to be chopping anyones head off becasue of their race, like the real enemy loves to do("waaa, we're torturing homocidal maniacs in prison we're at war with, on the same day 7 of our own get blown up").
Anyway, I do wonder what he's suing on, or what the lawsuit names. I can think of 3 good things I would do if it were me.
And Trespassing, I would say fine, no biggie, except they never gave him a warning or told him to leave, just a wrongful arrest. I doubt theres "no photography" signs around either.
Yea, i'm sure this guy is the real enemy. This ranks right up there with credit checking all passengers boarding planes for safety concerns. Like the oil and UN funded whackjobs are going to have poor credit and that's going to tip Mr. Ridge off.
Sorry about the rant, but this is Bushism at it's finest. Distract everyone from what's really the trouble.
You were going great, then you uttered this bullshit. This behavior has nothing to do with Bush, and wouldn't be condoned by most of his supporters (myself included). You are yet another example as to how ignorant many people are when it comes to conservative ideology.
We're at war. Wait, We won the war and are now distracted by the real war. Then things are going badly, we'll, let's concentrate on gay marriage, or going to the moon, or other stuff to keep us preoccupied.
That was the correlation I was making. I don't think a white collar looking gentleman with a new camera needs a special unit to come over. And you knwo what else....WOW NYC has some awesome response times. I figured it was like philly where priorities get on a waiting list! Guess I'm wrong, i'm impressed again.
There's a clearcut enemy, and if i cut out newspaper clippings everyday for the last......100 years?...I'd need to rent storage space. That's your focus. I feel bad if there is anyone who fits the description who is actually good, but you should join in somehow. And not in the usual Arafat style propaganda style "helpings" either.
That's all I mean. There's a threat, but use descreation and judgement. Ask questions but don't friggin arrest the person. This is like the old chinese woman taking off her shoes at the airport joke!
Don't worry about the Shrub bashing, he DESERVES it for betraying the ideals of TRUE conservatism - the one that RONALD REAGAN endorsed - getting the government OFF the backs of the people. I'm a neocontwit's worst nightmare - a BARRY GOLDWATER conservative. And in honor of a man I respected greatly, spent many hours in conversation with on amateur radio, the sayings of a TRUE conservative. Compare and contrast with these right wing MORONS in charge today ...
And so, a few choice words and thoughts from Barry, with respect, and in memory:
On Gays in the Military: "You don't need to be 'straight' to fight
and die for your country, you just need to shoot straight."
On the Religious Right's agenda in general: "Religious factions
will go on imposing their will on others unless the decent people
connected to them recognize that religion has no place in public
policy. They must learn to make their views known without
trying to make their views the only alternatives."
On what Jerry Falwell deserves for trying to impose his religious
values on the Republican agenda: "a boot ... right in the ass."
On Ronald Reagan's claim that he knew nothing of Iran/Contra:
"[He was] either a liar or incompetent."
?
K7UGA was Barry Goldwater's FCC assigned Amateur Radio call sign.
N2MMM is My FCC assigned Amateur Radio call sign.
CQ-- literally "Seek You" (you are being called)
de (of, from. or by)
Bush philosophy? This is politics 101, perfected by Clinton. You're either 19 years old or very, very politically ignorant.
The first clause of that sentence was completely irrelevant.
Just ask McCain. What did they say about him again?
How about Ken Starr and Clinton and all that slime? Didn't they also Whitewater those people? Compared to the Bush atrocities and the fuzzy math of his businesses, wooo. Everyone after me.
Texas Rangers. Can you say that? Good.
Who's flying around after 9-11?
And the slogans instead of doing anything. War games people breaking into nuclear facilities and airports unhindered? Let's fire them and give tax cuts. Hurray!
Clinton perfected the art of distracting the media from his own problems, usually by lobbing a few cruise missles into empty tents in the Sudan.
And as much as Democrats want to label Bush a liar, it's Clinton whose the convicted perjurer.
Yea, because
A) george can't answer simple questions without cheney at his side, therefore is impossible to perjur
B) the GOP loves slinging any mud it can, even something as irrelevant as a quickie which every president in history has done. That's much more important than us being Saudi puppets.
The man is completely the wrong man for the job. Especially if you have a hard time answering an opened ended question from a reporter that has no wrong answer.
So vote for the other fuy.
So vote for the other guy.
http://www.dubyaspeak.com/ ("We record the damage")
If he wins, there will be case precedence. How this could be used out of state, I do not know, but it will be useful in the future as case precendence is rarely reversed.
However, the security guards had the legal right to stop him from taking pictures in thecourtyard (private property).
I'm not condoning the security guards' behavior. They were first-class idiots. But under those circumstances, I would have stayed on the sidewalk, and not entered the courtyard,
i am still pissed at myself for getting one wrong.
tim
You'll get called when you get called, just keep your nose squeaky clean until then and stay out of trouble. Oh and by then way, the TA will call you twice before you're actually hired so don't get your hopes up right away when you get that first letter in the mail.
So tell me. Which is better?
This or the way the LIRR does it?
Joining the Navy was easier!
The best thing to do is just HOPE that you're called, and if not just keep on taking the tests until your foot is in the door.
You never know what could happen, there is always that possibility that you could be a victim of the ol' "1 out of 3".
THE "RULE OF THREE"
Job vacancies are filled from eligible lists according to the "Rule of Three" which requires the selection of one of the top three eligibles on the list who indicate willingness to accept appointment.
What this means is that OF the top three people on a list, one must be selected. The other two can be thrown OFF the list. Then the next three move up to the top and so on and so on for a single open position. Just another "gotcha" in the neverending political game of rearranging the deck chairs between photo-ops. :)
What this means is that OF the top three people on a list, one must be selected. The other two can be thrown OFF the list. Then the next three move up to the top and so on and so on for a single open position. Just another "gotcha" in the neverending political game of rearranging the deck chairs between photo-ops. :)
It is like I said on another thread...
First Impression is EVERYTHING!
They gotta like your threads, or they ain't calling you back!
They call in the top three for the first position, and they must (as I understand it) select one of them. If they have more than one position open, they may take one of those three too, right?, but they do have the right to discard them and go to the next three.
Is that how it works?
Elias
But yes, your understanding is LARGELY correct. I was a provisional in a title and had to take a test for the job they had created and put me into. I came out 21st on the list considering Veteran's credits and coworkers with more seniority deciding they were gonna "bump me" ... in this situation, since I had designed the facilities and the Chairman insisted that I be retained, the first three were called, one chosen, disqualified on "second interview" as not having sufficient knowledge ... next three ... next three ... next three until they got down to the 21st person on the list in groups of three. Needless to say I went from "provisional" to "permanent" status.
Grievances were filed and the agency was upheld by Department of Civil Service. Little paperwork was required because the agency Chairman called the second floor, who leaned on the Civil Service Commissioner. So there's your "Merit System" hard at work. In all sincerity, the candidates above me on the list WEREN'T qualified, but the process left a LOT of people PO'd ...
Whoever said joining the Navy was easier was right. I joined the Air Force in June and was flying jets by December.
Vince
Look it's only for one weekend. But OTOH, guess what Broadway express line gets to use the south side of Manhattan Bridge all to himself? Hint: It goes to Brighton Beach.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/business/yourmoney/09goods.html?pagewanted=print&position=
The company has a website that describes the game.
http://www.ticket2ridegame.com/
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I get teased about my version of the game because I added CNJ, LIRR & L-V.
PRT has been a dead end every time before. What's to think it'll work *now*?
-Chris
That would be great. My e-mail is in my username. Thanks!
http://www.amroadhouse.com/frontporch/mapdown.pdf
Lower Manhattan map
Today it is part two of Options and Alternatives.
In part two of this lesson we will focus more upon some of the internal
options. Most of these are options located within the cab itself.
For years some railroads used water coolers for drinking water in the cab
of the locomotive. This was akin to what you would see in an office, only
with a smaller bottle, and it was generally filled with ordinary tap water
and not some nice triple filtered stuff. Other roads used the "Igloo" brand
water can. This was a metal can with a plastic liner inside that was filled
with water and ice. You dispensed it from a spigot at the bottom. Little
triangular paper cups were provided. There were drawbacks to both systems.
The water bottles tended to break or could easily be tampered with. The
Igloos could (and did) get dirty inside and were sometimes used for other
than consumable water. More than once, I heard stories about some sort of
contaminate being found in the cooler instead of water. Over the years more
than one employee came down with a little "reaction" to the water as it was
not always being stored in the most sanitary conditions. In my days at the
MoPac, an Engineer in Arkansas got deathly ill drinking the water from the
Igloo, wound up in the hospital, missed a bunch of work and got a
substantial settlement as a result.
>From that point on, there were changes in how the industry provided
drinking water for their crews; little bottles of water purchased by the
pallet load. This was not (and continues today to not be) the best of
water. Some brands of it taste pretty good while others taste like they
just pumped right out of a coal mine and then bottled it. But there are
some brands of water that really taste good. These little water bottles
were placed inside the coolers on most roads. It was soon discovered that
the Igloos filled with ice didn't have a great deal of room for water
bottles. To provide for more room, some railroads began to purchase
refrigerators designed for use on locomotives. They operated on the 74V DC
electrical system of the locomotive or used air pressure from the
locomotive air system to power the compressor. There were several different
brands of locomotive refrigerators on the market. MoPac used two different
models.
Other railroads decided to install larger coolers. CN's US operations don't
use refrigerators like our Canadian cousins; on our former IC and WC units
we have large Igloo brand ice chests (like you would bring to a picnic)
with ice and water bottles placed inside. This requires ice machines to be
located at all terminals. Each cooler has a drain on them connected to a
hose that runs the water from the melted ice outside so that the cooler
doesn't fill up with water. Refrigerators are required by law in Canada but
not the US. UP has refrigerators on some of their units, and non-secured
ice buckets that look like large pails on others.
Speedometers are another item that varies greatly from railroad to
railroad. For years, the railroads were not required to have a speed
recording device and some didn't. Others used a paper tape recorder. The
speedometer had a stylus mounted inside at the top of the unit. That
scrolled across a tape made of a type of paper. The tape was on a roll and
worked like a reel to reel tape recorder with the tape advancing from one
spool to the other as the locomotive moved. This type of speedometer was
called a "speed recorder" and was totally mechanical in design. No
electricity was required to for them to operate.
>From time to time, especially after some sort of episode like a derailment,
rules infraction or train/motor vehicle collision, the tape on such a speed
recorder would be pulled and inspected to see how fast the Engineer was
operating the train at the time of the episode. To this day, even in the
era of the electronic event recorders, when the information is downloaded
onto a card to be read in the computer, it is still often referred to as
"pulling the tape."
As time passed, the event recorder was developed. The first ones used what
looks just like an 8 track tape cartridge. This device recorder multiple
functions the Engineer was doing in addition to just the speed. There was a
cycle of 24 to 48 hours on the tape. Once it reached the beginning/end
splice in the tape, it changed tracks or channels. If not removed by the
time it progressed to the end of the last channel it just recorded right
over the old data. In the event of an episode, the tape cartridge would be
pulled and then put into a machine to play and read out the events
recorded. Some railroads embraced this technology immediately. All
locomotives ordered by MoPac beginning in 1980 all had event recorders.
Some roads ordered some of their power with, some without them; some roads
added them after obtaining new or rebuilt locomotives. In the mid 1990's
the FRA required their use and most roads retrofitted all non-equipped
locomotives with them.
Like everything else, the event recorder has evolved considerably. Today
there are computerized versions that record the information into a small
chip. The data can easily be retrieved using a laptop computer. There are
several different brands available and the railroads may opt to go with all
of them or stay uniform and just use one brand.
Speedometers have also been improved with all electric or electronic
systems being used. While older locomotives and those not equipped with
high adhesion electronics, the speedometer is usually mechanically driven
that measures wheel rotation. The high adhesion units use a radar speed
detector. A radar gun is place underneath the front of the locomotive and
it measures ground speed instead of wheel rotation. If you have a radar
detector in your car and it suddenly goes nuts when you come near a train,
that could very well be the reason; it is picking up the radar unit on the
locomotive. The radar speedometer can and does sometimes go nuts when
passing over an open trestle bridge. The radar beam hits the ties then the
open spaces in between them to the ground or whatever is below. The needle
on the speedometer or the digital readout will jump back and forth.
There are various models and brands of speedometers available and placement
in the cab also varies. The Rio Grande used to place one speedometer on the
control stand facing the Engineer. This was a small one. A large one was
placed in the center of the cab just below the roof. This allowed for
everybody in the cab to be able to observe the speed. In their early super
cab units, CN placed the speedometer in the center of the cab mounted just
like those of the Rio Grande. There wasn't a small one on the control stand
for the Engineer though. Some roads in recent years have opted for a front
and rear speedometer. This allows for a speedometer in both directions of
travel so that the Engineer will not be required to constantly turn around
and look at the speedometer at the front of the unit when operating the
unit in the opposite direction.
And there are varying readouts on speedometers. Some use a needle over a
screen with numerals and hash marks. Others use a digital readout. Still
others use both a digital readout as well as a series of advancing or
receding hash marks in a semi-circular pattern. These moving hash marks
simulate a needle following the number grid. The size of the speedometer
itself varies too. Some are very large; others are smaller, with the screen
of the speedo itself about four or five inches in size.
Some models of speedometer will also include an accelerometer. This device
measures acceleration or deceleration and reads it out on the screen. You
can plot your rate of speed increase or decrease in real time.
Cab heaters were, for the longest time, of a hot water variety. They used
water from the locomotive cooling system to provide heat. Multiple speed
fans would force air through a series of piping inside the heater. This
heated air would be forced into the cab and provide warmth. There were
several drawbacks to this system. If the unit was sitting idling for hours
on a very cold day, the cooling water didn't get very hot. This meant the
cab of the engine also didn't get warm. On bitter cold days just to sustain
heat in the cab when sitting for an extended period of time, the Engineer
would have to throttle up to try to warm everything up which would heat up
the water. There were times you had to have the throttle in run 5 or 6 just
to keep the cab warm. Of course, this wasted a considerable amount of fuel.
However, when it was really cold, fuel conservation was the least of your
concerns.
GE units used a hot water run though piping like EMD with a different
arrangement. There was a large vent at the front of the cab. A valve was
used to regulate the flow of water through the system. The more the valve
was opened, the more heat that came through the vent. There was no switch
to regulate the speed of any air through the system though.
It was and is still pretty easy to spot a hot water heated EMD locomotive
in the winter months. On older Geeps, one of the air intake vents behind
the cab will often have a board placed over the opening to restrict air
flow of fresh and cold outside air. Switcher units will have a large cloth
apron over the front air intake. This apron resembles a window shade.
Again, this apron restricts the flow of cold air into the system which
would reduce the output of hot air from the heaters.
Then there was the plumbing to the heaters. Like any other type of
plumbing, the pipes tended to corrode and leak. They would also build up
with scale from the minerals in the water. This caused heaters to perform
at far less than optimum values and you would freeze to death in the cab.
In the event you had the unit die and it could not be restarted, you had to
drain the cooling water from the system. This also meant draining the water
from the lines to and from the heaters. There were separate drain cocks for
them that also needed to be opened. To drain a locomotive, there is a drain
valve in the engine room that may be operated while the locomotive is
moving. To drain the heaters, you must stop the train and reach under the
cab while standing on the ground outside to open the drain cocks. Many
Engineers did not do this and of course, the water would freeze in these
lines causing the piping to burst.
To assist the water based heating system, EMD eventually offered electric
sidewall heaters. There would be two of these heaters, one on each side of
the cab using an electrical grid that glowed and provided additional heat
in the cab. This was an optional device and many roads did not go for it.
In the mid 70's it became a standard feature. GE developed their own
version of the sidewall heater in the latter 70's and also began offering
it, first as an option and later as standard equipment.
The electric forced air heater was developed and offered first as an
option. Some roads operating in the northern climates chose this option
over the water based systems as they didn't require the locomotive cooling
water for heat. This system also reduced maintenance costs. By the mid 70's
the electric forced air heater became a standard feature. There are several
different models of the forced air heater with some producing enough to
practically blast you out of the cab.
.
As for storage of supplies needed by crews, this greatly varies from
railroad to railroad. Necessities like spare air hoses, an air hose wrench,
hammer, chisel and other tools require a place in which to stow them. Some
roads used a locker in the air room portion of the engine room; others went
with a rack mounted to the rear sand box or even on a car body door inside
the rear of the engine room while others went with a stand up locker that
could hold everything needed, including a spare jumper cable. With the
super cabs many of the hardware supplies are stored in the front of the
nose, just inside the exterior door and just outside the cab access door.
Many roads have opted for some type of crew vigilance systems. Alerters or
dead man's pedals have been applied to many locomotives when they were
built. At one point in time, a dead man's pedal was required by law. In the
70's this law was revised to only require passenger locomotives use this
feature. Many roads immediately removed them from their freight engines.
Other roads continued to use them as a safety feature and ordered them on
new power. Conrail, Grand Trunk Western and South Shore are three roads
that ordered new power with dead man's pedals on their new power after the
law was changed. Although once they began using alerters, Conrail dropped
the use of dead man's pedals. GTW likewise began installing alerters and
also discontinued the use of them on most of their power as well.
Dead man's pedals require the Engineer to keep one foot on a pedal at all
times when the brakes on the locomotive or MU Passenger car are released.
On most locomotives so equipped, a whistle would sound if you took your
foot off the pedal under such conditions. You had about five seconds to put
that foot back on it or the train went into a penalty brake application. On
the MU passenger cars, the train would go into emergency immediately.
Alerters require the Engineer to perform certain functions within a
specific time period based on the speed of the locomotive or hit the reset
button to prevent the
alerter from bringing the train to a stop automatically. These functions
include the throttle, whistle, bell, and air brake systems. This system,
required by law in Canada since 1986, and on many passenger trains in the
United States is a final level of protection should the Engineer become
incapacitated while operating the train.
Passenger locomotives and MU electric passenger cars are also required to
have either a dead man's pedal or an alerter. Metra's MU Electric
Highliners are equipped with both devices.
Seats on the locomotive are also an option. The standard for many years was
the "toadstool" or mushroom seat. This was a very basic seat with a round
bottom cushion and a non-adjustable seat back. Their look resembled a
toadstool or mushroom, hence the name. The seat back did come all the way
forward and would make full contact with the bottom cushion to make it easy
to get around the seat when it was unoccupied. The toadstool offered no
lumbar support. It came in two styles, with or without armrests. The only
adjustment possible with them was the ability to raise or lower their
height. They weren't too comfortable and spawned numerous back injuries and
nurtured many the backaches.
Over the years better seats have been developed. More cushioning, lumbar
support, reclining seat backs with higher backs to them and other features
offer greater comfort and reduce lower back problems for Engineers and
Trainmen. Cloth fabric instead of plastic offers cooler seats in the summer
months. Canadian law requires cloth seats while the US is silent about this
feature. There are also features incorporated on some seats that allow for
the seat itself to move forward and backwards and on some, lateral motion
upon the tripod or floor mount bracket.
Canadian Pacific went with an air suspension type of seat akin to that on
semi tractors on their newest power. This helps to cushion some of the
shock when operating on rougher rail.
"Smooth, real smooth."
Improvements in the mounts used for seats have also been made. There are
two options for mounts; directly onto the cab floor or on a bracket on the
side wall. And with these mounts come improvements for adjusting the entire
mount forwards or backwards. These improvements have made it easier, thus
safer for the seat to be adjusted.
Inside the cab, required forms needed a home as well. With the
discontinuance of cabooses, the desk and supply drawer were gone. The
Conductor could not be expected to carry around all the forms they may or
may not need during a trip. So some roads went with a plastic rack inside
the cab to hold the envelope or packet that contained the various forms.
Sometimes these racks were tiered and could also hold track warrant and
track and time pads. CN placed a little desk with a top that opened inside
the cab. The forms could be placed inside the space under the desk top.
Some other roads opted for a fold away type of desk top. This was basically
a counter top mounted in a bracket or housing on the wall to the left of
the seats on the Fireman's side of the cab. You just pulled the counter top
all the way and laid it on end. The housing for it became the bracket to
hold it in place.
Then, there is the need for storing necessities such as fusees (flares) and
torpedoes. A metal storage bin is mounted on a cab wall. It holds fusees in
an open rack or one that has a top and latches shut. Torpedoes were stored
in a bin right next to the fusees. They required a bin with a latching top
as a safety feature. This storage rack could be placed in just about any
spot in the cab where it wasn't in the way. Some roads have even placed
them down in the dungeon by the toilet.
One option Conrail acquired on their locomotives was a wheel slip buzzer.
While virtually all locomotives have wheel slip indicator lights, Conrail
locomotives had a buzzer that sounded in addition to the light. This
feature can be a double edged sword though. In situations where there are
significant wheel slip conditions, that buzzer can quickly become annoying.
The handle for operating the whistle could also vary. The standard handle
was a lever that you pulled towards you to sound the whistle. This opened a
valve that allowed air to pass from this line to the whistle. Some roads
went with an electric operation of the whistle. Southern used a knob that
resembled a ball. You had two settings with this, whistling or not
whistling. Now the air operated levers would usually allow the Engineer to
not have to pull the handle all the way in order to produce a sound. You
could pull it part way and get a lower decibel producing sound. With a five
chime whistle, if you pulled the handle just right, you could get different
sounds out of it as you could have less than all five chimes sounding
depending upon how hard you pulled that lever.
I mentioned in part one about the electronic bells. Most locomotives used a
brass knob known as the bell ringer to activate or turn off the bell. Some
roads like Soo Line used a toggle switch instead. Many Milwaukee Road units
also used the toggle switch. Of course those with the electronic bell all
used the toggle switch. With today's super cab units, the bell ringer is a
button that electronically controls the bell.
And speaking of the bell, some roads opted for a feature that automatically
operated the bell anytime the whistle is sounded. Chessie was the first I
ever saw to have this feature. Locomotives purchased by Seaboard System
also had this feature as did some of their "Family Lines" power built in
the 1980's. Anytime you operated the whistle, the bell would automatically
ring. You still had to shut it off manually though.
Some roads, particularly those that operate in the northern climates might
opt for additional insulation on the locomotive cabs. They would also go
with a thicker, heavier grade of glass for the windows too. Virtually all
CN and CP units came with window defrosters. This was an electronic device
within the windows, similar to the rear window defroster on your
automobile, only you don't have all those lines in the glass. Today most
all new power is being equipped with the in glass defrosters.
As for the cab itself, there became several versions available. The
Canadians developed the so-called Canadian Cab. Today's version is known as
the super or comfort cab. The original comfort cab is vastly different than
today's model. More efficient use of space is made in today's version. In
fact, the cab itself is actually a bit larger than the first designs. For
many years, it was mostly Canadian locomotives that were built with the
super cab. The F45 type of unit of the late 60's and early 70's, the
ill-fated SDP40F locomotives purchased by Amtrak and the F40 series
purchased by Amtrak and many commuter railroads were about the only wide
cab locomotives in the US. The super cab didn't reach into the US for any
freight applications until the latter 1980's. The US freight railroads
began experimenting with the larger cab more widespread in the mid 90's.
At first, the super cab was an option. But by the latter 90's it became the
standard and the standard cab then became the option. By 1999 the standard
cab was dropped from the locomotive builder catalogs as an option. The IC
1039 holds the distinction of being the last standard cab locomotive built
for North American service.
Then, there is the WhisperCab. This revolutionary design was created by EMD
and they have numerous patents on it. Unlike the standard cab or even the
regular super cab, the WhisperCab is isolated from the rest of the
locomotive, hence the "I" letter in any locomotive built with this option.
The cab itself is a separate entity held to the nose and car body with
special brackets. There is a boot of rubber between the front of the cab
and the nose and the rear of the cab and the car body to keep everything
sealed. It is also not bolted directly to the frame like other cabs.
This design greatly reduces noise and vibration in the cab. Even in run 8
under a heavy load, it is much quieter in the cab and the use of protective
hearing devices is not required, except when the windows are open and you
are sounding the whistle. Now when in dynamic braking, there is more noise
in the cab, but it is still a bit quieter than other cabs. The only
drawback I find to them is the rougher ride. Being the cab is isolated from
the rest of the locomotive; it tends to wiggle and rock more on rougher
rail and can be brutal on jointed rail.
Then there is the desk top control stand. While there was a type of version
of it used on Amtrak Electric locomotives that operate on the Northeast
Corridor, the desk top for freight locomotives found its first use in
Canada. At first, CN embraced it. However, most of their Engineers despised
it. CP did not go for the desk top control stand at all until they received
their order of SD40-3F's in 1989. With the advent of the super cab in the
US, some US railroads began to order it as well. With the exception of a
small order of SD70m's, all Norfolk Southern (proper, not units acquired
from Conrail) super cab units have the standard control stand. All of CN's
SD70I's, SD75I's and Dash 9-44C locomotives also have the standard control
stand.
The gauges and system monitors in the cab are also available in several
formats. There is the standard analog system. This system is the mainstay
of the industry and has been around forever. It is totally low tech by
today's standards. Analog gauges, the bank of indicator lights and regular
speedometer are pretty reliable.
Then there are the high tech systems. In the 90's, Rockwell developed its
"Integrated Cab Electronics" or "ICE." This system used video display
monitors in place of mechanical analog displays. There were digital
readouts along with graphs. These readouts included an electronic speed
display, electronic amp gauge and dynamic brake gauge, tractive effort
gauge on alternating current propelled units, integration of air brake
functions and support including air gauges and controls for the system to
cut it in and out and even head end telemetry controls. There are other
functions available as well including all of the indicator lights being
incorporated onto the screens. All of these systems are displayed on one or
two screens in front of, or to the left side of the Engineer. With this
system, the need for satellite or companion boxes or components is
eliminated. It is supposed free up space in the cab allowing for less
distraction and intrusion to the Engineer.
In the mid 90's, EMD developed their own system calling it "Functional
Integrated Railroad Electronics" or "FIRE." Cute eh; Fire and Ice. The FIRE
system replaced the Rockwell ICE system that had previously be applied on
EMD built locomotives. General Electric, not to be outdone, introduced
their Integrated Function Control or IFC. It is similar to the Fire and Ice
systems, only manufactured by GE. There are some differences though but we
are not going to get into them here. All of these high tech systems can and
have been integrated into the standard control stands as well as the desk
top stands. The final order of Conrail SD70's uses the electronic systems
on the standard control stand.
CN has not embraced these high tech systems and continues to use the good
old fashioned analog systems. Union Pacific's 1100 plus SD70m's built over
the past few years also have the standard analog systems as opposed to
FIRE. Sometimes high tech is not all that it is cracked up to be I guess.
The standard control stand continues to be offered. Prior to the desk top,
the standard control stand was it. As I had mentioned earlier, some roads
used dual control stands in the cab while other had just one. When N&W
dropped the use of two control stands, they followed Southern's lead of the
bi-directional control stand. This version was the standard control stand
mounted in a different fashion. Instead of being mounted at an angle facing
the Engineer, it is mounted parallel to the side wall on the Engineer's
side. This mounting makes it much easier for the Engineer to operate the
controls when operating in the opposite direction of the front of the
locomotive. This makes life much easier as you are not reaching almost
behind you to operate most of the controls but rather, along side you.
On the bi-directional control stand the speedometer is usually mounted on
the control stand itself. This makes it easier to observe your speed as you
do not have to turn around and look behind you to see the speedometer.
Although on some units, there is a rear speedometer mounted on the high
voltage cabinet to eliminate having to turn at all. On some older units,
this was applied well after the locomotive was built.
Some items found on locomotives are after market components that are
applied to the locomotive after it is delivered to the railroad. MoPac used
to not have radios installed at the factories on their new locomotives. The
new units would be sent out of Chicago as working units in a consist, but
always in the trailing position. Items like the radio, rear view mirrors
and wing windows were applied when the units reached the Pike Avenue Shops
in North Little Rock after their maiden voyage. By 1983, that philosophy
had changed a bit. Some of the new MP15DC switchers acquired were ready for
use as lead units when they arrived at Yard Center, and several of them
were assigned there immediately after being placed into service. I was able
to operate several of them being the very first Engineer to use them in
revenue service.
For many years, new locomotives were shipped dead and drained of all
cooling water and lubricating oil from the factories. They were delivered
to their respective railroads and factory reps would come out to the
location where each railroad was to place them into service. Various
functions were performed to prepare the units for service including
fueling, oiling, watering and sanding them. Other mechanical and electrical
items were tested and checked. After starting them for the first time, the
units would be checked for leaks and other problems and then load tested.
Once approved and accepted for use, they were then placed into service.
In the latter 80's this began to change, some railroads paid the builders
to perform these functions at the factory sending railroad reps to
LaGrange, IL, London, Ontario and Erie PA. Once accepted, these locomotives
would be delivered running to the railroad or railroads that would
transport them to their new home. They were frequently used as working
power on trains while in transit. Brand new BNSF Dash 9-44C's have been
observed over the years operating as working power on Conrail and NS trains
after being released from GE's Erie, PA plant.
There are numerous companies producing after market items for locomotives.
Many times these items are installed on locomotives years after their being
placed into service. Sometimes the items are upgrades to improve what the
builders offered at the time of manufacture of a particular model of
locomotive.
Fuel saving equipment such as "Select-a-Power" or "Kim Hot Start" would be
two of those items. Microprocessors applied to pre-high tech era
locomotives are often applied as well. EMD and Quantum produce aftermarket
systems for retrofit onto existing locomotives. The microprocessors improve
wheel adhesion and overall performance of locomotives.
Ditch lights, strobe lights, and other lighting systems are also marketed
for existing locomotives. In fact, when ditch lights became mandatory in
the mid 90's, all of the US railroads had to either create their own ditch
light systems or purchase after market systems to comply. When cabooseless
operations were initiated, the required equipment had to be purchased and
installed on all locomotives to be used in this service.
Locomotives ordered after cabooseless operation was introduced often had
the required hard and software applied when they were built. Locomotives
with the high tech FIRE, ICE or IFC systems had this equipment integrated
right into it.
Then there are options for remote control slave units. In the 60's, Harris
developed "Locotrol." This was a system that allowed the Engineer to
operate mid or end of train helper units remotely from his controlling
locomotive. As initially offered, some units had the controls to be
"master" units. They featured all the required controls on a panel that
sent commands to the helper units. Those units that were to receive these
radio signals were called "slave" units.
To allow for any unit to be a remote slave or helper unit, Southern Railway
developed the radio receiver car. This car resembles a boxcar and is
coupled to power located in the train. The use of electrical connections
sent the control messages to any unit coupled to the radio receiver car.
The use of such cars reduced Southern's costs for such locomotives as they
didn't require as many of them to be dedicated for such service.
Advances have been made by leaps and bounds for remote controlled helper
service, In fact now it is referred to as "Distributed Power." The use of
microprocessors has made the equipment required for remote helper operation
much more compact. What used to fill up much of the short nose of a
locomotive is now contained in a box a little bigger than the size of a box
in which a medium sized TV would be packed. Today's equipment is also far
more reliable, although not perfect. The system is still a radio
communication based system and subject to the nuances of man made and
natural barriers and atmospheric conditions.
Locomotives equipped with such equipment would have at least one or two
additional radio antennas on them, which could usually be the only spotting
feature to indicate such. Southern used to use different number boards on
their locomotives so equipped. Union Pacific and Santa Fe SD40 series
locomotives that were equipped had longer front short hoods. They were
often referred to as "snoots." This allowed for all the Locotrol equipment
to be placed in the nose while leaving plenty of room for the toilet and
equipment supply bin.
Then there are toilets. There are several different types of systems
available as well as varying styles of toilets themselves. While most new
power these days uses some type of flush toilet, there have been other
systems out there. Some roads used an incinerator toilet for those "number
two" situations. These things literally incinerated the stuff. The smoke
and smell from such treatment would about kill you.
There are several types of flush systems. There is a vacuum system that
uses water and literally sucks everything out of the bowl and into a
retention tank. There are several types of flush toilets available as well.
Some are like the standard home toilet holding water in the bowl at all
times. Others have an empty bowl but use treated water to flush everything
clear and into a holding tank.
The cab interior paint is also an option. The standard paint for standard
cabs for years was the trusty industrial gray. This is as harsh and sterile
as you can get. Some roads opted for more eye appealing colors. Lighter
shades of green and blue have been used for some cabs. CN has used tan and
beige shades as well as some lighter browns. The super cab units come in a
beige sort of color. In years past, many early diesels were delivered with
the cab interior painted a dark green.
Finally, the last option we will discuss is air conditioning. For many
years most railroads avoided this option. Santa Fe was probably the first
road to make wide spread use of A/C on their locomotives. UP had some
engines equipped as did Western Pacific. Virtually none of the eastern
roads went for it. The times have changed and A/C is now standard on some
models, particularly alternating current units. Most roads order A/C on
their new direct current units. After all these years of forcing us to sit
in extremely hot and incredibly uncomfortable cabs, somebody figured out
that this may not be the safest method of operation.
Many railroads have resorted to retrofitting older units with roof mounted
A/C units in addition to ordering this feature with new power. It is
amazing how much better one can feel by the end of the day if they are not
being slow roasted by the summer heat and humidity. What is even more
amazing is how long it took for railroad officials to embrace the safety
benefits obtained from air conditioning the locomotive cab. They install it
in signal cabins to that the signal system will work properly, why was it
not thought to give it to the crews as well? Didn't they figure we needed a
little comfort to work properly?
While there are many more options we could discuss, I figure this is a good
spot to end this topic. I could go on for probably two more columns if we
tried to discuss it all. And I think this one has already gone quite a long
way already, so we leave it at that.
And so it goes.
Hot Times on the High Iron ©2004 by JD Santucci
No, unfortunately today's theme is not derived from a great oldie by the
late Patsy Cline. Nor is it a story of me coming unraveled at the seams,
although a few people may have a few comments on that issue. This time it
is train separations that we'll discuss.
Once again we're horribly late getting this one out. Between changing job
assignments and a death in the family (the loss of the grandmother of the
beautiful bride), I've been a bit preoccupied up with other issues. My new
job assignment is the Hawthorne-Markham transfer that handles trains 338
and 337 between the above named yards. While I have the same day off of
Thursday, I now go to work in the overnight hours of the morning in that
time period that I many years ago I coined as the "late night side of early
morning." And being that this assignment doesn't generally come close of
the target call time I never really have an idea of what time I will go to
work everyday. So getting sufficient sleep is going to become a real
contest again.
But enough of that; now, let's get on with the show.
In the past I've touched upon train separations, also known as break in
twos. Today we are going to discuss what up to this point has been the
third worst trip of my railroad career. This trip resulted in multiple
break in twos on one single trip. It also kicked off a period of two weeks
where I managed to have a total of seven of them. Talk about running into a
real streak of bad luck, this was really it.
The railroad gods were angry my friend; "like an old man trying to send
soup back in a deli."
We drift on back in time to the year of nineteen and eighty-seven, and the
latter part of the month of October in particular. It was the first month
of operation for the fledging Wisconsin Central. The railroad had only been
in the actual business of railroading since October 11th, so there was
still a great deal of chaos in effect. There was still quite the learning
curve as well for all of us that came from everywhere around the country.
I was working a train from Fond du Lac to Chicago. If I recall correctly
the train was T042, a manifest train en route to the CSX at Barr Yard in
Riverdale, IL, a southern suburb of Chicago. We had something like 135 cars
or so this particular evening. In those early days at the WC, we did not
have the luxury of end of train telemetry devices. We were using the
Starlight brand of marker, affectionately known as a "Starlight" or a "dumb
FRED." This type of marker did not transmit information from the tail end
of the train to the engine; it was merely a flashing red light with a big
reflector underneath the lens of the flasher. There was an air hose on it
to connect to the brake pipe and an air gauge on the Starlight, but it
would only convey information about brake pipe pressure to the employee
standing right there to look at it.
While I don't recall what power we had, it can remember it being a mish
mash of it. In those early days at the WC we did not have most of our own
power on the property. Being that the original start up date of September
12th was delayed for a month by a court order; the company that WC was
purchasing the group of former BN SD45 locomotives from decided to make
some additional money off them during our start up moratorium. Many of
these locomotives were leased out to the perennially power short Southern
Pacific. So when the court ordered stay was lifted, most of this power was
out west somewhere on SP rails still under lease to them.
As a result of this lease arrangement, WC found itself dreadfully short of
power at the start up. We were leasing power from Conrail, Soo Line
(including a bunch of former Milwaukee Road units still in their orange and
black scheme), Green Bay & Western and even the Indiana Harbor Belt. So it
was the norm to have a true rainbow of colors as you could have power from
one of four five railroads in your consist.
I seem to recall there being at least one former BN unit, one ex-Milwaukee
Road unit and one Conrail unit with us on that eventful evening. I do
remember there being either four or five units in our locomotive consist.
In any event, we were heading east (timetable direction not compass)
towards Chicago. There was a great deal of slack action in the train as I
could really feel it. We had a bunch of loads back there with a block of
empties ahead of them. Being that we were all still very new to the
property, I was still learning the territory, so I was still developing a
feel for the terrain. So there we were rolling along starting down the hill
from Slinger towards Rugby Junction, WI. We had topped the ascending grade
that brought us into Slinger and after winding around a curve and crossing
the Wisconsin & Southern just east of the road crossing in Slinger, we
would start our descent towards Rugby.
As you head towards Rugby Junction you are not dropping straight down the
entire way. The route drops in steps; you drop a bit, level out a bit and
drop a bit more, level out a bit more and then drop down into Rugby before
starting back up hill again about a third or so of the way through the
station.
Approaching Rugby Junction I had the train rolling pretty good as we were
close to our then, 40 MPH speed limit. The throttle was in idle and we were
just drifting down the hill. I was slouched down in the seat all nice and
comfortable, feeling all was right with the world when pop, the train
suddenly goes into emergency.
"Emergency, everyone is to get from street, emergency!"
We came to a stop with the head end just west of the signal at Rugby Jct.
West. Conductor Gene Fendley gets suited up and heads out to take a look
for the problem. About four cars deep he discovers and air hose with the
glad hand missing; it had apparently blown out. The glad hand is the
metallic fitting at the end of the hose that allows for quick coupling and
uncoupling of the air hoses; quite the ingenious device. This blown out
glad hand required the hose to have to be replaced. This was the reason we
went into emergency.
Gene gets the hose changed out and cuts the air back into the rest of the
train. After several minutes of pumping, the air is not coming back up, so
he begins to walk and look for any other problems. About fifteen cars
behind the engines he finds it, a broken knuckle. He tells me the type it
is and I go back and check to see if we have one. Normally you'll carry two
replacement knuckles on each locomotive, an F type and an E type. They are
not interchangeable and must be replaced in kind, thus the reason you
normally have two of them with you.
So I tossed the proper one off the engine, and pulled the part of the train
we had a hold of up to it. Gene grabbed it and replaced it on the car that
needed it, shoved back to the rest of the train and put us back together
again. The air still wasn't coming up so he walked some more. He found
another broken knuckle somewhat further back and we repeated the process of
dropping one off, pulling him up to it and having him pick it up and
setting on the car and shoving back to the car with the broken knuckle. In
this case, it was on the leading end of the car, so it had to stay behind.
By loading the replacement knuckle onto the last car, it saved Gene the
awkward manner of having to lug this 86 lb piece of iron along the right of
way back to the car that needed it.
So now this one is replaced, the air cut back in and it now comes up quite
nicely. I guess we're back in business. Gene makes the walk back up to the
engines and we get ready to roll again. By this time, train 218 had caught
up to us and was stopped right behind our tail end. Their Conductor gave
the highball on the air and we began to roll. I didn't roll very far
though, maybe a couple of car lengths or so when the air went into
emergency yet again.
"Danger Will Robinson, danger!"
Gene began walking back again and the Conductor of 218 began walking
towards our head end to find the problem. Yet another knuckle was
discovered to be broken, this one being close to the tail end of the train.
The Conductor on 218 grabbed one from his engine, the one on the front of
the locomotive itself, and changed it for us. He put the train back
together and we were finally, and for certain, back in business.
My guess was that this third knuckle broke as the train was just about
stopped, but the train separation there was not far enough apart to cause
the hoses to separate between the cars. When the brakes released after
getting the second knuckle replaced, the slack probably rolled back in and
these cars on the rear closed up tight against the rest of the train. As I
started to pull away, the train separated at this broken knuckle far enough
to finally cause the hoses to separate and put us back into emergency
again.
The failed glad hand on that hose four deep really did a number to us.
Now we're on the roll again and things are back to normal. We're rolling
along pretty good again and have now reached Leithton, where the EJ&E
crosses and connects with us. There is also a passing siding located here
as well. It is now daylight and we're rolling along under cloudy skies. All
of a sudden the air goes again. Now what?
Geno starts walking again only he doesn't have to go far. There was a
shorty hose, also known as a dummy hose between the brake pipe hoses of the
third and fourth locomotives. The use of these is supposed to be prohibited
between locomotives, but whoever put this power together overlooked that
rule this particular evening. Shorty hoses are used when the air hoses
between two cars are a bit too short to either make properly or even make
at all. This hose is generally just that, a short hose with glad hands on
either end to allow it to be used as a filler between two other hoses; the
shorty hose bridges in the gap.
Anyhow, the shorty hose blew out between these two locomotives causing the
emergency application. The prime reason they are not supposed to be used in
this situation. Once the problem is resolved and one of the hoses on the
locomotives was changed for a longer one to allow the hose to be made
properly, we are not getting the air back. So it's more walking for Mr.
Fendley. I'm sure by now he is sorry he left Texas to come to Wisconsin to
work for the WC and even sorrier that he got stuck working with me.
Forty-two cars deep Gene finds a broken knuckle. By this point in time we
are getting low on sand in the hours of service glass. Gene gets the
knuckle changed out but that about does it for us on time. The powers that
be decide to relieve us there and send us to the hotel to tie up and get
rest. 218's crew takes our train the rest of the way in to its final
destination.
In the six plus years I had been a promoted Engineer, plus the seven months
of on the job training as a student Engineer and also the time I worked as
a Fireman prior to that, I had only gotten one knuckle prior to this trip.
And that one was as a Student Engineer. So in one night I managed to get
four of them with three of them occurring with one felled swoop.
The following day on our trip back to Fond du Lac, we were heading up
Lomira hill with an overweight and underpowered train. It was rainy and
foggy and we were pretty much on our hands and knees making the climb. I
was under 10 MPH and hoping like hell that we weren't going to stall. And
again, we were on short time. I recall having a Soo Line GP9 and several
Conrail GP35's as part of my locomotive consist that day and one of them
was in the lead. As we were struggling along, one (or more) of the units
picked up a viscous wheel slip. Before I could even react, everything bit
the rail again and we lurched forward. This, my friends, is never good, but
even worse under the particular conditions we were operating under. The air
went into emergency and we stopped abruptly.
Geno began the trek back yet again and there it was another broken knuckle,
seventeen cars behind the engines. We were now about dead on the hours, so
we didn't take care of changing it out. They relieved us and cabbed us back
to Shops Yard. Gee, four knuckles in two days. I was afraid I was going to
be dubbed the scrap iron king or something. The idiot Trainmaster that I
had so much trouble with in my days at the WC started to call me Knuckles,
but fortunately that name didn't take. Only one other person there ever
called me that aside from him. Several weeks later this individual did
something far worse than I have ever done, so he didn't call me that too
often as I reminded him of his episode whenever he did. Perhaps someday
we'll recount that little adventure of his.
I got two more knuckles over the course of the next twelve days when the
railroad gods must have felt I had been punished enough. After this brutal
two week period ended, there was no more iron for quite awhile. I managed
to go about two years before getting another one and then about a year and
a half before getting another.
Since then I have only gotten three more in my entire career up to this
point. I supposed though, that I have just whammied myself and will
probably destroy an entire train next week. We'll keep you informed should
it occur. Hopefully, there won't be anything like this to write about again
anytime soon.
I should make mention though that I am acquainted with an Engineer who told
me of getting four of them at once. It was his maiden voyage as an Engineer
and it took place on a cold rainy night. He was working a coal train when
his night to forget took place. I'll bet he was really popular with the
boys after that trip.
And so it goes.
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2004 by JD Santucci
***********************************************************************
Hot Times on the High Iron ©2004 by JD Santucci
No, unfortunately today's theme is not derived from a great oldie by the
late Patsy Cline. Nor is it a story of me coming unraveled at the seams,
although a few people may have a few comments on that issue. This time it
is train separations that we'll discuss.
Once again we're horribly late getting this one out. Between changing job
assignments and a death in the family (the loss of the grandmother of the
beautiful bride), I've been a bit preoccupied up with other issues. My new
job assignment is the Hawthorne-Markham transfer that handles trains 338
and 337 between the above named yards. While I have the same day off of
Thursday, I now go to work in the overnight hours of the morning in that
time period that I many years ago I coined as the "late night side of early
morning." And being that this assignment doesn't generally come close of
the target call time I never really have an idea of what time I will go to
work everyday. So getting sufficient sleep is going to become a real
contest again.
But enough of that; now, let's get on with the show.
In the past I've touched upon train separations, also known as break in
twos. Today we are going to discuss what up to this point has been the
third worst trip of my railroad career. This trip resulted in multiple
break in twos on one single trip. It also kicked off a period of two weeks
where I managed to have a total of seven of them. Talk about running into a
real streak of bad luck, this was really it.
The railroad gods were angry my friend; "like an old man trying to send
soup back in a deli."
We drift on back in time to the year of nineteen and eighty-seven, and the
latter part of the month of October in particular. It was the first month
of operation for the fledging Wisconsin Central. The railroad had only been
in the actual business of railroading since October 11th, so there was
still a great deal of chaos in effect. There was still quite the learning
curve as well for all of us that came from everywhere around the country.
I was working a train from Fond du Lac to Chicago. If I recall correctly
the train was T042, a manifest train en route to the CSX at Barr Yard in
Riverdale, IL, a southern suburb of Chicago. We had something like 135 cars
or so this particular evening. In those early days at the WC, we did not
have the luxury of end of train telemetry devices. We were using the
Starlight brand of marker, affectionately known as a "Starlight" or a "dumb
FRED." This type of marker did not transmit information from the tail end
of the train to the engine; it was merely a flashing red light with a big
reflector underneath the lens of the flasher. There was an air hose on it
to connect to the brake pipe and an air gauge on the Starlight, but it
would only convey information about brake pipe pressure to the employee
standing right there to look at it.
While I don't recall what power we had, it can remember it being a mish
mash of it. In those early days at the WC we did not have most of our own
power on the property. Being that the original start up date of September
12th was delayed for a month by a court order; the company that WC was
purchasing the group of former BN SD45 locomotives from decided to make
some additional money off them during our start up moratorium. Many of
these locomotives were leased out to the perennially power short Southern
Pacific. So when the court ordered stay was lifted, most of this power was
out west somewhere on SP rails still under lease to them.
As a result of this lease arrangement, WC found itself dreadfully short of
power at the start up. We were leasing power from Conrail, Soo Line
(including a bunch of former Milwaukee Road units still in their orange and
black scheme), Green Bay & Western and even the Indiana Harbor Belt. So it
was the norm to have a true rainbow of colors as you could have power from
one of four five railroads in your consist.
I seem to recall there being at least one former BN unit, one ex-Milwaukee
Road unit and one Conrail unit with us on that eventful evening. I do
remember there being either four or five units in our locomotive consist.
In any event, we were heading east (timetable direction not compass)
towards Chicago. There was a great deal of slack action in the train as I
could really feel it. We had a bunch of loads back there with a block of
empties ahead of them. Being that we were all still very new to the
property, I was still learning the territory, so I was still developing a
feel for the terrain. So there we were rolling along starting down the hill
from Slinger towards Rugby Junction, WI. We had topped the ascending grade
that brought us into Slinger and after winding around a curve and crossing
the Wisconsin & Southern just east of the road crossing in Slinger, we
would start our descent towards Rugby.
As you head towards Rugby Junction you are not dropping straight down the
entire way. The route drops in steps; you drop a bit, level out a bit and
drop a bit more, level out a bit more and then drop down into Rugby before
starting back up hill again about a third or so of the way through the
station.
Approaching Rugby Junction I had the train rolling pretty good as we were
close to our then, 40 MPH speed limit. The throttle was in idle and we were
just drifting down the hill. I was slouched down in the seat all nice and
comfortable, feeling all was right with the world when pop, the train
suddenly goes into emergency.
"Emergency, everyone is to get from street, emergency!"
We came to a stop with the head end just west of the signal at Rugby Jct.
West. Conductor Gene Fendley gets suited up and heads out to take a look
for the problem. About four cars deep he discovers and air hose with the
glad hand missing; it had apparently blown out. The glad hand is the
metallic fitting at the end of the hose that allows for quick coupling and
uncoupling of the air hoses; quite the ingenious device. This blown out
glad hand required the hose to have to be replaced. This was the reason we
went into emergency.
Gene gets the hose changed out and cuts the air back into the rest of the
train. After several minutes of pumping, the air is not coming back up, so
he begins to walk and look for any other problems. About fifteen cars
behind the engines he finds it, a broken knuckle. He tells me the type it
is and I go back and check to see if we have one. Normally you'll carry two
replacement knuckles on each locomotive, an F type and an E type. They are
not interchangeable and must be replaced in kind, thus the reason you
normally have two of them with you.
So I tossed the proper one off the engine, and pulled the part of the train
we had a hold of up to it. Gene grabbed it and replaced it on the car that
needed it, shoved back to the rest of the train and put us back together
again. The air still wasn't coming up so he walked some more. He found
another broken knuckle somewhat further back and we repeated the process of
dropping one off, pulling him up to it and having him pick it up and
setting on the car and shoving back to the car with the broken knuckle. In
this case, it was on the leading end of the car, so it had to stay behind.
By loading the replacement knuckle onto the last car, it saved Gene the
awkward manner of having to lug this 86 lb piece of iron along the right of
way back to the car that needed it.
So now this one is replaced, the air cut back in and it now comes up quite
nicely. I guess we're back in business. Gene makes the walk back up to the
engines and we get ready to roll again. By this time, train 218 had caught
up to us and was stopped right behind our tail end. Their Conductor gave
the highball on the air and we began to roll. I didn't roll very far
though, maybe a couple of car lengths or so when the air went into
emergency yet again.
"Danger Will Robinson, danger!"
Gene began walking back again and the Conductor of 218 began walking
towards our head end to find the problem. Yet another knuckle was
discovered to be broken, this one being close to the tail end of the train.
The Conductor on 218 grabbed one from his engine, the one on the front of
the locomotive itself, and changed it for us. He put the train back
together and we were finally, and for certain, back in business.
My guess was that this third knuckle broke as the train was just about
stopped, but the train separation there was not far enough apart to cause
the hoses to separate between the cars. When the brakes released after
getting the second knuckle replaced, the slack probably rolled back in and
these cars on the rear closed up tight against the rest of the train. As I
started to pull away, the train separated at this broken knuckle far enough
to finally cause the hoses to separate and put us back into emergency
again.
The failed glad hand on that hose four deep really did a number to us.
Now we're on the roll again and things are back to normal. We're rolling
along pretty good again and have now reached Leithton, where the EJ&E
crosses and connects with us. There is also a passing siding located here
as well. It is now daylight and we're rolling along under cloudy skies. All
of a sudden the air goes again. Now what?
Geno starts walking again only he doesn't have to go far. There was a
shorty hose, also known as a dummy hose between the brake pipe hoses of the
third and fourth locomotives. The use of these is supposed to be prohibited
between locomotives, but whoever put this power together overlooked that
rule this particular evening. Shorty hoses are used when the air hoses
between two cars are a bit too short to either make properly or even make
at all. This hose is generally just that, a short hose with glad hands on
either end to allow it to be used as a filler between two other hoses; the
shorty hose bridges in the gap.
Anyhow, the shorty hose blew out between these two locomotives causing the
emergency application. The prime reason they are not supposed to be used in
this situation. Once the problem is resolved and one of the hoses on the
locomotives was changed for a longer one to allow the hose to be made
properly, we are not getting the air back. So it's more walking for Mr.
Fendley. I'm sure by now he is sorry he left Texas to come to Wisconsin to
work for the WC and even sorrier that he got stuck working with me.
Forty-two cars deep Gene finds a broken knuckle. By this point in time we
are getting low on sand in the hours of service glass. Gene gets the
knuckle changed out but that about does it for us on time. The powers that
be decide to relieve us there and send us to the hotel to tie up and get
rest. 218's crew takes our train the rest of the way in to its final
destination.
In the six plus years I had been a promoted Engineer, plus the seven months
of on the job training as a student Engineer and also the time I worked as
a Fireman prior to that, I had only gotten one knuckle prior to this trip.
And that one was as a Student Engineer. So in one night I managed to get
four of them with three of them occurring with one felled swoop.
The following day on our trip back to Fond du Lac, we were heading up
Lomira hill with an overweight and underpowered train. It was rainy and
foggy and we were pretty much on our hands and knees making the climb. I
was under 10 MPH and hoping like hell that we weren't going to stall. And
again, we were on short time. I recall having a Soo Line GP9 and several
Conrail GP35's as part of my locomotive consist that day and one of them
was in the lead. As we were struggling along, one (or more) of the units
picked up a viscous wheel slip. Before I could even react, everything bit
the rail again and we lurched forward. This, my friends, is never good, but
even worse under the particular conditions we were operating under. The air
went into emergency and we stopped abruptly.
Geno began the trek back yet again and there it was another broken knuckle,
seventeen cars behind the engines. We were now about dead on the hours, so
we didn't take care of changing it out. They relieved us and cabbed us back
to Shops Yard. Gee, four knuckles in two days. I was afraid I was going to
be dubbed the scrap iron king or something. The idiot Trainmaster that I
had so much trouble with in my days at the WC started to call me Knuckles,
but fortunately that name didn't take. Only one other person there ever
called me that aside from him. Several weeks later this individual did
something far worse than I have ever done, so he didn't call me that too
often as I reminded him of his episode whenever he did. Perhaps someday
we'll recount that little adventure of his.
I got two more knuckles over the course of the next twelve days when the
railroad gods must have felt I had been punished enough. After this brutal
two week period ended, there was no more iron for quite awhile. I managed
to go about two years before getting another one and then about a year and
a half before getting another.
Since then I have only gotten three more in my entire career up to this
point. I supposed though, that I have just whammied myself and will
probably destroy an entire train next week. We'll keep you informed should
it occur. Hopefully, there won't be anything like this to write about again
anytime soon.
I should make mention though that I am acquainted with an Engineer who told
me of getting four of them at once. It was his maiden voyage as an Engineer
and it took place on a cold rainy night. He was working a coal train when
his night to forget took place. I'll bet he was really popular with the
boys after that trip.
And so it goes.
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2004 by JD Santucci
FYI, if you ever see a movie called "The Warriors", it's 100% fiction. Great movie, a cult classic, but totally unrealistic.
CAN YOU DIG IT????
"The chicks are packed!"
"Warriors, come out to playeeee"
Regards,
Jimmy :)
"Come out and Play-eyeah"
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
But Hollyweird DID go out of its way to convince us that Fort Apache was one of the SAFER places to live, and the ONLY way out was to get Charles Bronson to escort you to the park. Heh.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
In all my years of riding the subway, I have only had two bad experiences, and I rode "everyday" (you know what I mean) from 1984 to 1996 (although as a kid with my parents in the 70's too of course), so saw the system go from bad to worse (from the 70's to 80's), and then a complete turnaround in my "regular riding days from 1984 to 1996. My second "bad experience" was on the Livonia El in 1990, where I had a knife pulled on me, but a TO came in, and the assholes jumped off the train at the station, so it really wasn't all that bad.
My first "bad experience" was on just the line you mentioned which was my home line, the M! I was in high school, and I needed to get a calculator for trig class which the teacher said to get at 42nd Street photo. It was a sunny day on the M train in 1987 or 1988 and I had just tranfered from the F to the M at Essex-Delancey on my way home. I was all excited about taking the M over the WillyB once in a while (and in later years would everyday). I had gotten on to the second car (grafittied R27-30). I was standing in one of the doorways of a totally empty car looking out towards lower Manhattan while going over the bridge. At that time some guy in his mid-30's came into my car, and sat right at the end of the seats by the doorway I was standing in. He acted very weird, and kept getting up and going back and forth from his seat to the map across the way. I was still sort of "un-street smart" and only about 15 or 16, so didn't really think anything of it, and continued to look out over the East River.
As we approached Marcy Ave, he got up to the map again, and then asked me how to "get to the L train". I told him to "stay on this train to Wyckoff Ave". He looked "perplexed" and then asked me to show him the this on the map. At this point the train was in the Marcy Ave station, and no one got on. The doors closed, and I went over to the map. He said, "Where's Wyckoff Ave?". I then pointed it out. At this point, things got bad. He grabbed my arm, with one hand, and then grabbed my (well you know) with his other hand. This scared the absolute hell out of me. By this time, we were in the Hewes St station, which was totally desolate. I went to the other side of the car, while he stayed at the map. He then kept screaming something like "That was nice, I want to do that again!". I then went to the third car (which was also empty), and he followed me in, and kept screaming that, and worse (like for me to "show it" to him), and that if I kept moving he would hurt me. By this time we were at Lorimer St, and I had to decide what to do, the platform was deserted, and figured it would be worse to get off at a desolate station platform if he followed me, so didn't get off. He kept screaming things from the opposite end of the car. Thank goodness for Flushing Ave, as a whole bunch of nurses got on. At last he stopped, and he finally got off at Myrtle-Broadway. I was kind of dumb not to say anything, but was just sort of shaken up.
I was scared to ride the subway for a few weeks after that, although thank goodness it was a Friday afternoon, had the weekend to "recover", and got right back on that following Monday (the best way to eliminate fears is to confont them right away). I was scared I would run into him again for a week or two. I then got older and wiser. I never told my mother, because she would have freaked, and then worried everyday when I took the subway to school. I got over it, and time went on, and the Broadway El has since become my favorite line. I certainly didn't like it that day and for weeks afterwards though!
I obviously would have handled the whole thing differently today, as I am much more street smart, but at the time I was only a nieve teenager, with much to learn.
But then again, I'm only 16.
Discuss. Heh.
Guess that's about the worst thing ever occurred to me on the trains. And I used to ride real late at times, like after one in the morning. Nothing ever happened.
Nothing has happened to me before in the NYC Subway.
My second "bad experience" was on the Livonia El in 1990, where I had a knife pulled on me, but a TO came in, and the assholes jumped off the train at the station, so it really wasn't all that bad.
Interesting. Was this in the newspaper and on TV?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Oh, I forgot to answer that.
Nah, of course not. That sort of thing was common back then. They didn't actually hurt me or even rob me (although were probably planning to). I don't think the TO even realized what was happening, he just happened to walk onto the train, and just by doing that spooked them and they ran off.
I was with a friend that day. It wasn't even enough to even report something like that, it was only enough to say "never again" about riding that line (which of course improved and I did go back years later).
LOL
Off peak, the trains and stations were full of homeless drug addicts, especially late in the 1980s and early in the 1990s, during the crack epidemic. But I was never victimized by, or witnessed, a serious crime. A prankster reached into an open window and smacked me upside the head as a train left Dykman Street Station. That's about it.
My wife had her wallet lifted by an incompetent, who failed to time it right and get off the train before the doors closed, in the late 1980s. She realized what happened and went after the guy, who dropped the wallet on the floor and was able to exit between cars and get off at the next stop, escaping the mob.
I was mugged once on Myrtle Avenue, in 1987. We had one break in, in 1991, in an apartment we had just moved into (inside job by the super suspected). We had our airbags stolen from our cars, parked on the street, three years ago. That's it.
Let's not forget "DeathWish" with Charles Bronson! Don't forget the Bernnie Goetz story that was one of those made for T.V. movies!
Hollywood obviously made billions over this stereotype and it's sad to see it still runs.
There are lots of things I do now I wouldn't have done then, like riding in the rear car and waiting for a train all the way at the front of rear of the platform (unless of course the token clerk was there).
I changed trains late at night at Broadway Junction without any real trepidation, but I wouldn't have gotten out at an isolated station.
I've never been the victim of a serious crime in 30 years of living in NYC, though there have been some petty incidents like car break-ins. I've had a far worse experience in a peaceful quiet neighborhood of Cambridge, MA.
Location: North Lynn & 19th Streets, Rosslyn, VA
Opening: 7/1/77
Routes: Blue/Orange, Provisional Silver (Dulles Line)
Alignment: VERY DEEP Underground
Ceiling: Coffered waffle vaulted arch.
Platform: Slpit-level Island (see: Pentagon Station)
Aditional features: "Next Train Destination" signs (pre-PIMS) are located at the south end of the outbound platform, on the end wall over the tube. Blue represents trains to National Airport/Van Dorn Street/Franconia-Springfield. Orange represents trains to Ballston/Vienna-Fairfax. The station mezzanine is at surface level, inside a plaza with a blank pylon sitting on the upper level outside. This leaves the paltform area clear and uncluttered, unlike at Pentagon.
Another one built as a transfer, but unused as such for several years, Rosslyn is a VERY impressive station in terms of achitecture. Tunneled deep beneath the surface, and for good reason. The lines south of the station diverge in similar fashion to Pentagon, just in the opposite direction. Orange heads west under Wilson Blvd/Fairfax drive, and out I-66 to Vienna. Blue heads south, surfaces, dives under again, and eventually pops up around National Airport before heading into Alexandria and Springfield. To avoid at-grade crossings, the laws of Pennsylvania Railroad are applied. Thus, the junction is of the flying variety, and the outbound Blue track ducks under the inbound Orange. The station's depth is likely related to its nearby geology... and the deep tunnel beneath the Potomac River north of the station may have something to do with it as well. Looking west at Foggy Bottom-GWU, you'll notice a bit of variance in the grade easement on the tracks... the outbound grade is a bit steeper, making early preparations for the junction. That low level design, coupled with the river tunnel, leads to one deep station. However, until the 1979 opening of the Orange Line to Ballston, this station was just there to serve passengers and look interesting. The Orange and Blue lines were one for roughly a year, with color based solely on direction. Rollsigns hadn't been replaced by flipdots yet, so Blue couldn't show a New Carrollton designation, nor Orange for National Airport. Blue went west, Orange went east. The mixing was done to eliminate probelmatic overlapping that would be caused by terminating Orange trains mid-line since they didn't yet have a western terminal. When Rosslyn first opened, the Orange Line didn't even yet exist. Despite a lack of nearby crossovers, this station was on rollsigns, and is programmed into flipdot and LED signs as a Blue/Orange Line terminal... either someone doesn't mind deadheading to West Falls Church or Alexandria Yard, or they crossover at Arlington Cemetery (also programmed as a Blue Terminal, though... so how does Orange manage to turn back here?). As at Pentagon, the station looks like a single-track affair when viewed from a short distance (i.e out the train window), but the inbound platform sits high above the outbound, giving off yet another high ceiling vault for people waiting to go deeper into Virginia. And again, seeing the vault from the inbound side makes the wallsigns look out of place... the inbound platform is close to the top of the arch, and the signs actually look to be high on the wall if you know the lower level is down there. Most people transferring in Rosslyn are going from an Inbound of one color to an Outbound of the other. If you actually transfer from inbound to inbound here, you're either killing time, or want to take no chances. Going from outbound to outbound, this is your last shot at it.
**** for Rosslyn Station, as it's a bit more interesting than Pentagon, and seemingly more tranquil. If you're ever railfanning the DC Metro, get a westbound Blue or Orange Line train in the District and check out this station. Don't worry, you won't get trampled.
wayne
From the looks of hings, the PIMS (mostly obscured by the pylon) says there's a train coming... and the platform edge lights agree... too bad you weren't facing the other way for this one Wayne. A shot of the signs I'd mentioned being above the tube would have revealed where the next train was going (and thus what train it was). I guess Blue.
Likely one of the circuit breakers has been tripped.
John
Power-washing, per a WMATA employee, is done overnight, from system closing to 45 minutes before system opening.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Location: North Lynn & 19th Streets, Rosslyn, VA
Opening: 7/1/77
Routes: Blue/Orange, Provisional Silver (Dulles Line) No Provisional Silver as the supplement to the Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS) has been released and some funding for preliminary engineering has been appropriated.
Alignment: VERY DEEP Underground Deep in the bed rock. The station train hall described below and support ancillary areas is constructed in a 750’ (228.6m) plus long by roughly 68’ (20.72m) wide by roughly 50’ (15.24m) high gallery excavated out of the bed rock using explosives. In the area above the crown of the vault is a air plenum (know as the dome relief) that is tall enough for a person to walk the length of the station. (Note; all station in bed rock have the dome relief plenum in them.) The excavated gallery is self supporting and therefor the concrete coffered vault serves no structural propose. At the south end of the station in the lower level ancillary area is a traction power tie breaker station.
Tunnels north and east of the north ancillary areas are horseshoe tunnels excavated out of the bed rock using explosives (river tunnels) at a point between 24th and 25th Street under I Street the tunnels transition to shield bored tunnels. The finished tunnels have a cast in place concrete lining with an inside diameter of 16’ 8" (5.08m). There are three shaft between Rosslyn (C05) and Foggy Bottom (C04). A fan shaft with stairs is just north of the westbound off ramp from VA I-66 at N Lynn Street the second shaft, at the bottom of this shaft has as I recall a traction power tie breaker station. A vent shaft located in the structure on the south end of the Thompson Boat House. The top of the structure has the opening for the vent shaft to prevent flooding during high water on the Potomac River. A second fan shaft with stairs is located on the east side of Rock Creek Parkway north of Virginia Ave NW the round non descript structure on surface at the fan shaft houses a traction power substation. At the low point under the river between the tunnels is an ejector pumping station
Tunnels on the C Route Blue line south of the south ancillary areas and junction switches to the portals are horseshoe tunnels excavated out of the bed rock using explosives the tunnels have a cast in place horseshoe concrete lining with an inside width of 16’ 8" (5.08m).
The tunnels on the K Route Orange line south ancillary areas and junction switches are machine bored tunnels with a cast in place concrete lining with an inside diameter of 16’ 8" (5.08m). There is as I recall one fan shaft between Rosslyn (C05) and Court House (K01)
There are two small 6’ (1.82m) by 8’ (2.43m) explosive excavated tunnels with a shotcrete lining off both C and K Route tunnels that connect to a shaft to the surface that houses the cooling tower for station air conditioning and a traction power substation. The surface structure is located at the northwest corner of the N Meade Street and Arlington Boulevard VA US-50 interchange.
Ceiling: Covered waffle vaulted arch. Standard 22 coffer arch vault design again same as Pentagon (C07)
Platform: Slpit-level Island (see: Pentagon Station) Again same as Pentagon (C07).
Aditional features: The signal C05 06 that protects the junction switch on the outbound C2 track has a repeater signal. When the station opened, Rosslyn (C05) displaced the three escalators at Dupont Circle (A03) north entrance as the tallest escalators in the system. The four escalators at Rosslyn (C05) have vertical rise of 97' 9 1/4" (29.80m). Rosslyn (C05) was later displaced from this claim by other stations. This claim now belongs to the three escalators at Wheaton (B10) with a vertical rise of 115' 5" (35.17m). Not mentioned in the Pentagon (C07) post, displayed on the south end wall of the lower level is Virginia Department of Transportation (VDOT) "Welcome To Virginia" highway sign. The center of the station is 14,175’ (4320.54m) from zero chaining at Metro Center (C01)
John
Is what you are talking about like a pilot tunnel built before the actual station is carved out? Are these areas sealed off after station completion or are there still access points to get inside?
No. The air plenum is a large 10’ (3.048m) wide by 5’ (1.524m) tall air duct that is attached to the top of the concrete vault running the length of the train hall. Notice the dark colored acoustical panels in the images of Cleveland Park (A05) and Medical Center (A10), these panels have an opening above them to allow warm air to escape from the station. All stations in subway have a dome relief. The only difference is, the dome relief in cut and cover stations use separate individual shafts for each set of dome relief openings in the crown of the vault to the surface instead of the common duct that is connected to separate shafts in the blow out shafts at the ends of the station. The air plenums on the top of the train halls of stations that are bored out of the bed rock are accessible for maintenance purposes There is also enough room to walk the length of the top of the vault outside of the air plenum.
As to pilot tunnel. Yes a pilot tunnel was excavated at the crown as part of the excavation of the of the completed gallery. I was lucky enough to walk the pilot tunnel that was excavated to build the Woodly Park-Zoo (A04). The top of the pilot tunnel was the same height as the finished gallery.
John
I can’t say I have been on top of any of the vaults after the stations were opened, What I can say the only sound one hears it the flow and dripping of water seeping through the shotcreate lining of the gallery. The noise from arriving trains is likely muffled by the acoustical panels in the vault and there is likely less vibration then what one feel when standing on the platform. The area is well lighted for maintenance purposes.
John
The pictures are terrific, one is full page. One of the smaller pictures scares the hell out of me. It shows a passenger, hanging out of the composite, apparently sitting on the middle of the three cross chains at the storm door of the last car enjoying the sunshine.
I don't think I would ever trust those chains to hold my weight.
The pictures are terrific, and are worth a look.
That smaller picture would scare me too. I've seen too many careless foolhardy kids riding on the backs of subway trains, outside the car doors. Perhaps that el passenger was safer, if the cars pictured were gate cars, with conductors manning the gates at each station stop.
As for scanning a current issue of Classic Trains....copywrite problems.
http://www.archive.org/stream/ThirdAve1950/ThirdAve1950_256kb.mp4
There are some great spots to railfan, including the old NY,NH&H station in Westerly, RI, and some shots in and near New London and Mystic-Stonington. Enjoy! and I'll post a different railroad soon, maybe some MBTA or something.
Your pal,
Fred
-Chris
Your pal,
Fred
Regards,
Jimmy
MIke
Why not wait until you actually have something to post, and *then* log in? Can you imagine the mess on this board if everybody suddenly got logged out? ;-)
And I forgot my PW, so I had to send for it, and before I forgot it, decided to log in, so my info will be automatically saved.
Just ignore this topic and let it die.
Its my first time having to log back in. For some reason I was logged out of other sites I goto aswell. Dont know why.
Your computer tossed it's cookies. That is where this kind of information is kept.
Elias
But I noticed it didnt log me out everywhere which is weirder. Anyways, yes I know this topic title is one you cant ignore. :P
It really does not matter how long you have been doing something, or how long it has been working correctly. This time you tossed your cookies.
You could have done it your self by going to your Internet Settings > Security applet and clearing cookies your self.
You could have set some privacy software which did this for your.
You may have cleaned excess files from your disks.
You may have had a virus or a trojan affect your settings.
You may have set up a new profile, or if you are on a networked computer, you may not have reached your network profile correctly.
In any event, some MONSTER came and ATE your cookies, and now they must be rebuilt as you visit each site that placed a cookie you your computer.
Elias
I have the ones for the Jersey Arrow such as MP-85 for the Jersey Arrow I, MA-1G for the Jesey Arrow II and MA-1H and MA-1J for the Jersey Arrow III single units and married pair respectively.
I believe that the Silverliner I were also designated MP-85 but I could be wrong.
Thanks in advance for any help.
Larry,RedbirdR33
David: THanks for the information. I believe that for a while the MP-85 was a generic designation for all 85 foot PRR MU cars, even the Arrow I's had that designation at first.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks Phil
Larry,RedbirdR33
I stumbled across this website which might help:
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=motorpassenger&sz=sm&fr=
It'd appear that SEPTA purchased the Silverliner IVs, as well as possibly the IIIs for both Reading and Pennsy commuter service. This is somewhat borne out by a March 1975 article from Railway Age, which mentions that SEPTA owned the cars, PC was just the operator of the commuter lines at that time. As such, the Silverliner III and IV will not have a Pennsy MP## designation, just as the Metropolitan and Cosmopolitan series will not either. However it'd appear that the toilet-equipped Arrow I was the MP85ae, while the Silverliner I or II was the MP85e.
The Silverliner III's came in 1968. They were numbered 220-239 and were assigned to the PRR or PC. (PRR became PC in Feb 68).
The Silverliner IV were delivered in 1974 and 1975 to both the PC and Reading. The PRR cars were 101-188,270-303 and 304-399. The Reading cars were 9018-9031. This was just before the Conrail takeover in Apr 1976.
I looked into that website last night and it didn't provide much info.Thanks again for your help.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The cars had a provision for center-doors, but SEPTA never installed them due to the cost of adding the extra mechanisms. That provision would have been installed after the opening of the Commuter Tunnel, but by the time the tunnel was under construction, SEPTA had killed the plans for the doors' installation.
So the cars that were numbered in the 100 series were for the Reading? Thank you. I never did quite understand why so few cars were ordered for the Reading and simply assumed that they would be numbered in the 9000 series.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I must I am damn proud of this version, if I do say so myself.
Well, as you see, the big new thing is a major update for Brooklyn residents, ala the SAS. Also, numerous tweaks have been made here and there to improve efficiency, which I'd like to discuss later (such as the 9 brought back as a full time Broadway local terminating at 137 St, ala a very minor change at the 137 St yard -- or the bottleneck completely removed from 57 St/7 Av).
As always, please, let me have your comments and questions!
Each, as far as I see, have pros and cons. Here are the ones I've examined:
Option 1: (Dark Blue): Tracks for the Co-op City subway veer underground on the north side of the Amtrak ROW just after the stop at Unionport Ave. From there it runs underground to the intersection of Tremont and Devoe Av, where the next stop is located. Continues underground next stop at Louis Nine Blvd.
Pros: Subway service to West Farms Sq.
More evenly spaced station location than 180th St
Cons: No direct (free) transfer to the IRT
Option 2: (Cyan Blue): Same route as above, except slightly northward and running directly beneath the IRT at E 180 St, with a transfer built right into the station building. There it continues southward about the same route as option 1.
Pros: Direction transfer to the IRT northbound/southbound at 180th St. Which
connects to the express <5> and allows both station entrances to share the same building.
Cons: 180th St is in a less important area than West Farms Sq.
Station close to Unionport Rd station and distant from the next stop
Manhattan bound (Louis Nine Blvd)
Option 3: (Periwinkle Blue): Subway splits from Amtrak ROW under Bronx River Pkwy, and first stop being 177th St. Then continues direct to Louis Nine Blvd.
Pros: A bit less tunneling.
Cons: Subway stop is in unimportant area.
The Unionport Ave Station is located where one of the proposed Metro-North stations (Parkchester, with Penn Access) is to be – the station is to share the complex. I know in this last version of the map, there is (what seems to be) a long stretch with no stops between Unionport Rd and Eastchester Rd. I scrapped the Bronxdale Av stop because it seems too close to the Unionport Rd stop so I didn't bother. However, is there use for a station in this vicinity? Perhaps somewhere between Bronxdale Ave and Williamsbridge Rd (say to service Westchester Sq Medical Center)?
Obviously the Eastchester Rd station has a function (Hospital land), as does Pelham Pkwy, the Co-op City stops, and the stops along Boston Rd and Third Ave. However, it is the stops between 169 St and Eastchester that seems uncertain to me, I like to read some discussion on the matter.
What do you folks think, what’s the best option? Any other options to consider?
If you haven't figured this out yet, this will be the best response you'll get here, since it seems this board is getting bored (...don't mind the pun) by all the fantasy maps that are being sent in. I speak out of experience, my maps didn't receive much attention either.
Maybe it were a better idea for you to send all your maps to the MTA or NY City Council, or even Mayor Bloomberg himself; that's what Jabbour supposedly did with his map as well. Good luck,
-Alargule
#3 West End Jeff
*An additional 14th St line branching off after Lorimer, staying on Metropolitan Ave, then turning onto Union Tpke and staying the course 'till 271 St. I had the letter K in mind for it (despite the existing "K" bullet on the rollsigns being blue), but that is of little import.
*An extension of the (3) into and through southern Queens via Linden Blvd.
:-) Andrew
Thank you!
I was considering scrapping the < M > on the West End line, because, really, a D to T transfer would accomplish the same thing. Question is will riders be mad to have to give up their one-seat ride from the West End to LM? How much ridership does the rush-hour M actually see, anyway?
Idea:
The 2 Av lines to SI
Kings Plaza line: 8Av-(14St)-Bedford Av-(branch)-Metro Av-(XTown)-Myrtle-
(branch)-Nostrand[A/C transfer]-Utica[3/4 transfer]-(plan on map V5)-
Kings Plaza
Subway maps (Alargule, Grand Concourse, SINY_R143, and you) and concept designs (me). I wonder what's next (I know as well as a BMT Broadway Lines map, Chris Slaight (SINY_R143) also has a route helper).
All this is so darn cool.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Maybe some day I'll actually finish it...
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Broadway Buffer
The Second Avenue Subway (SAS) into Brooklyn, and the especially the Utica Ave line in particular I know are pure fantasy. While certainly a line that could be much used (giving subway service to the underserved SE Brooklyn), it simply doesn't have the ridership potential to justify the expense -- considering it would be all new tunneling.
However, the Co-op City line (the Bronx "N") and the 125th St crosstown are, I think, certainly essential endeavors. Co-op City needs subway access. And, it's a lot less tunneling than it looks -- between Tremont Av and I-95 it uses the existing Amtrak ROW -- if the SAS is ever going to get a Bronx connection, that will be it. It isn't really redundant -- the South Bronx, Parkchester, and especially Bay Plaza and Co-op City are seriously underserved, and could surely use the service, which as I have it configured would be highly versatile for riders all along its route.
The LGA line as I have it is pretty much, as I see, the easiest way to bring subway to the airport, if that will be one of the TA's goals. However, as new tunneling is terribly expensive (as evidenced by the presently projected $17 billion price tag for the SAS), if new tunneling is going to be done anywhere, it will only for "must have" projects, and sadly, I don't think LGA subway will be one of them.
None of the trains presently carry rollsigns in the SAS color on them -- that's something they'll have to install. ;)
Also, no one has pointed out that the Astoria riders are going to be none too pleased when they find out they've been left only with a very infrequent W service which terminates at the other end in a one-track terminal . . .
The light blue in Manhattan is the present plan for the alignment of the Second Ave subway. The red in Brooklyn is the Utica Ave line. The Hanover Sq terminus and the tail tracks that follow from it in Manhattan is to be designed with the option of a possible future connection to Brooklyn. Now, I don't know if this means a connection to the existing Montague St tunnel or a brand new one. Laid out in this map (represented by the blue and green) are two options for new tunnels, the green being the one featured in my latest fantasy map. The idea of the new tunnel being that it may potentially be used for bringing the LIRR Flatbush branch into LM. In looking at it, the northern blue tunnel option looks better. The stations are highlighted dark red.
Maybe I should just use the existing Montague St tunnel?
The line came under control of the LSWR, which was then grouped into the Southern Railway, and then nationalised in 1948, but even then control was not transfered to the London Underground (which was also brought under the control of the British Transport Commission at the time).
Many claim that an extension beyond Bank would be impossible, but in the 1930s a scheme to link it to the East London Line was seriously considered. The Waterloo end looks far harder to extend, it is practically at the surface. During the 1990s a station at Blackfriars was discussed, but came to nothing.
Travelling the line has always seemed very weird, especially before it was modernised and 1992 stock replaced the original 1938 built trains, which were very primitive compared with 1938 tube stock. Even today, the line still has no fare control at Waterloo, and one at Bank ws only recently brought into service.
At the beginning of the Norman Wisdom comedy film 'on the beat', there is a five minute sequence that was filmed on the line.
Do you actually mean an extension from Waterloo to Blackfriars, or a branch link? I can't imagine how an extension should have been incorporated, since Blackfriars is to the east of Waterloo, instead of the West...?
wayne
Just like New York! It is impressive in Paris (by contrast) how almost all of the lines have been extended from their original termini at the Paris city boundary (mostly called Porte de Something)another couple of stops in each case to the centre of one or another of the "banlieue" suburban municipalities. That's all happened since WW2, and is still going on (the extension of the 4 from Porte d'Orleans is next). Good example of gradualism, adding just a couple of stations at a time to the system.
Bakerloo Line takes over Hammersmith & City
Waterloo & City extended to Liverpool Street, plus new station at Blackfriars
Aldwych to Waterloo and Holborn to Euston
Jubilee Line to Kings Cross via North London Line (NLL Richmond to H&I only) and then gradually extended to Victoria.
These would go a long way towards solving various transport problems in London that we currently have, and we wouldn't really need the Crossrails.
So far as extending the Jubilee Line to Highbury and Islington is concerned: why stop there? Why not send the Jubilee right round to Richmond? It would then connect with itself at two adjoining stations at West Hampstead (8-) !
Seriously, I would expect the NLL to be cut back to Canning Town, or maybe Stratford, with closure of the North Woolwich section, once the King George V branch of the Docklands LR opens. Linking the Jubilee on to the North London at Stratford Low Level becomes a practical possibility. My understanding of why the NLL has never been transferred to the Underground, though, is that the route also carries freight trains.
My Jubilee Line idea is to send the line down fron Highbury & Islington to Kings Cross, so that it eventually becomes the Chelsea-Hackney line.
Various people proposed that the NLL be transferred to the Underground in the 60s and 70s, but I don't think that LT particularly wanted to be saddled with a crumbling heavily vandalised line with few passengers and poor links with the rest of the network. It would not have done their bottom-line much good.
So the Jubilee Line would connect with itself somewhere else - Bond Steet or Green Park, maybe.
"Various people proposed that the NLL be transferred to the Underground in the 60s and 70s, but I don't think that LT particularly wanted to be saddled with a crumbling heavily vandalised line with few passengers and poor links with the rest of the network. It would not have done their bottom-line much good."
That is probably true - Beeching proposed the NLL for closure, I seem to remember. In the present more pro-public-transport environment, though, a tube takeover of the NLL might be more possible. It seems no sillier than the ELL extension. But other rail traffic over the NLL tracks would be an obstacle - in addition to freight, Anglia Railways' unlikely and short-lived Ipswich-Basingstoke service went that way, didn't it? And I have a suspicion that from 2007 they are going to use a stretch of the NLL tracks to get Eurostar trains from St Pancras to their London maintenance depot. Parts of the NLL are double-electrified (both catenary and third rail).
East London Line New Cross to Richmond, with the Jubilee Line taking in Stratford to Highbury & Islington would be an interesting possibility. All we would need would be a proper interchange between the ELL and the Central Line.
Actually, the biggest capacity constraint on the Central Line is the sharp curves at Bank and Liverpool Street. I propose to sent the Central Line on a new alignment: Fenchurch Street, Whitechapel, Stratford, with the W&C line going from Bank to Liverpool Street and Stratford. Looking at Ordnance Survey maps, its almost as though the wrong line was extended eastwards!
wayne
As were the "sliding doors" part of the film Sliding Doors if I remember correctly...
You do. It was most disconcerting seeing it referred to as a District Line train!
Your observations are supported by the facts. On the Waterloo and City line, you have the lowest chance of getting a seat. Of course the data are averaged over the entire length of each line. Besides, people don't mind standing up for four minutes.
The lines cross roughly at a right angle. I imagine it would be difficult to 'distort' the Jubilee line to get cross platform interchange. Do all that many passengers want to make that transfer ?
It is best to think of it just a shuttle. London's "stockbroker belt" lies to the southwest, and its suburban commuter trains come into Waterloo station. But their workplaces are in The City, so a direct non-stop service from Waterloo to the heart of The City at Bank makes sense. Because of this being really the sole function of the line, it closes early in the evening and doesn't run on Sundays at all.
NY railfans may be amused to know that it is known to its users as The Drain.
Not only the users. Whilst it was still a BR/SR line, the engineers chained it as DRN!
From its opening until trains were replaced by Central Line stock access to the surface was by means of a lift up to Waterloo (Main Line ) station yard. (Possibly it was not economic to rebuild the lift for the new stock ? )
There was the small matter of them building a Eurostar station on top of it.
When they built the Eurostar terminal, did they extend the Drain so that coaches could be lifted out to a truck somewhere else?
What is the plan for the Waterloo Eurostar terminal when train service moves to St Pancras?
I don't think so. The vertical 'slot' that is now used is over part of the existing yard/depot of the line; I think they just opened up/tidied up an existing opening.
What is the plan for the Waterloo Eurostar terminal when train service moves to St Pancras?
Good question. I think officially the answer is still that Eurostar service will be shared between the two terminals, but with only a few tph I cannot see that actually happening in practice; and the french component of Eurostar have certainly made their opposition to the two terminal approach known.
Solution? Extend the Aldwych branch from Waterloo to Euston with a cross-platform interchange at Russell Square.
On the other hand, users of Liverpool Street will benefit considerably, although the step-free version of Liverpool Street to Kings Cross involves going the wrong way round the Circle Line.
Dammit. You ruined my fun.
Aha... Wimbledon to King's X Thameslink :-D (one downside - it probably would be quicker to get a District and change at Notting Hill for a Circle).
The only bleak thing about Vauxhall is waiting on the slow line platform in the rain when it's blowing a gale and you see 2nd Guildford, 3rd Guildford on the display and think there's hope... then as they move up, it reveals via Woking and via Cobham!
From Wimbledon, also quicker than Thameslink to get a taxi to South Wimbledon and then the Northern Line?
It is. The old lift was not adjacent to the depot, but accessed by a separate branch joining the running lines (I think) on the Bank side of the W&C's Waterloo station. The depot and current access are immediately beyond the other end of that station, which more or less runs at 90 degrees to the surface station.
Of course the lift had to maintain connection with the main line surface tracks as well as the tunnel, hence its location. That is not an issue for the current access; the cars are lifted to/from road vehicles.
The handover NSE to LU was on 1 April 1994.
I rode the W&C line both ways during my '01 trip - not bad at all for a shuttle, even has a very tight curve that comes completely without warning - I nearly lost my balance as we lurched round it.
wayne
Aha - the one to catch out the smarmy city types who like to hog the doors as it approaches Waterloo :-D
If you rode the entire length of this route, how many stations would you skip?
There are two correct answers not counting GO's and diversions.
D / 10 stops
Q / 5 stops
F / 10 stops
LOL!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
What are you saying? Forty four makes you physically unable to remain sharp deep into the night? If you mean, you have to get up early to go to work I would agree. Other than that, hell, I'm fifty and if I could (the work thing), I would stay up all night at least a couple of times a week. Doing this and that. So much to be done, so little time. As it is it's rare I get to sleep before one thirty anyway. I seem to be able to think the clearest after midnight. Go figure.
:-O
D would skip 10 in manhattan and 4 in Brooklyn --- TOTAL 14 stops
F would skip 10 in queens
d-- 10
f-- 10
1. You could be riding the "D" train and would skip 10 stops.
2. You could be riding the "F" train, and you would skip 10 stops.
3. You could be riding the "Q", and you would skip 5 stops.
-Chris
4 skips one station, hint: it's between Borough Hall and Nevins St.
The rules of the game were to find out which lines were skipping stations at 3 AM, irregardless of how and why they have to skip stations. Since the track configuration prohibits the 4 from stopping at Hoyt St, it is assumed that it skips that station at all times. IIRC, a 1980 subway map also states on the service grid for the late night 4 to Flatbush Ave "All Stops, skips Hoyt St."
But, if it was decided that the F and Q were to run local late nights, they could do so. There is no way for the 4 to stop at Hoyt.
That doesn't count. The 4 would have to make a few moves to even stop at that station.
4 skips one station, hint: it's between Borough Hall and Nevins St.
HMmmmm....
(Q)
(N)
(W)
(RR)
(J)
(M)
(Z)
..... Looks like ALL of the BMT (except the (L) and the (fS)) run on BROADWAY!
Isn't *THAT* nice!
: )
-- Ed Sachs
Basically, the Eastern div. hub was Bway Junction (with Myrtle missing this, but not by far), and the Southern div. hub was the Coney Island area. The subway system hub was DeKalb, though there once was a plan to connect Fulton to it, and Myrtle to the system north of there.
Eastern = lines passing over Williamsburg Bridge or through 14th St Tunnel
Southern Division:
1 Brighton
2 Fourth Av
3 West End
4 Sea Beach
5 Culver
6 Fifth Avenue
7 Brighton-Franklin
Eastern Division:
10 Myrtle-Chambers
11 Myrtle
12 Lexington
13 Fulton
14 Broadway-Brooklyn
15 Jamaica
16 14th Street-Canarsie
I'm not certain if 8 Astoria and 9 Flushing were considered as part of the Southern Division or were a separate "Queens Sub-Division." And since standard BMT nomenclature had trains going "toward Manhattan" as "northbound" (like Sea Beach to Times Square or later to57th Street and Jamaica going to Broad Street), I wonder what was "northbound" and what was "southbound" on Astoria and Flushing. Anybody have any documentation on that?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
"towards Manhattan=north" is an overgeneralization that astems largely from an explanation of why the J line is apparently backwards. The BMT started out between lower Manhattan and Brooklyn. So all of the lines leading away from Manhattan were going more "south" than anything else. In Williamburg, the Bway lie originally started at the ferry, ahtn was extended across the bridge to Essex. From those points to City Line, is basically southeast, but since "south" is tha favored designation, it too was south. The disparity began when the "north" end of the line was extended further into Manhattran, and then turned south down Centre St. What looked like a southern terminal was in railroad terms the new nothern terminal. When the line was through connected/routed with Nassau st., it became even worse. Then, the former southern terminals in the eastern district and Queens became northern terminals because the line coming from the southern district through Manhattan was running north. Yet, the chains still run south (increasing survey numbers) after Chambers.
Astoria and flushing were simply extensions further north of the northern terminals, so they would consistently be north. Not south just becauase it is heading from Manhattan.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Eastern ¨ J,L,M,Z
Also lines that were demolished like the Fulton el, Lexington, etc. were also part of the Southern and Eastern BMT.
When the 14th St (now L) line was opened in the 1920s, it was referred to as the 14th St - Eastern or 14th St - Eastern District.
Another note -- the Coney Island shops didn't open until the 1930s. Prior to that, the main service shops and yards for the Southern Divison was at 39th St.
-- Ed Sachs
HISTORICAL
Southern
All of the Q, the N (at least from Queensboro Plaza on south) and part of the R (in Manhattan and Brooklyn), the B and D (from the Manhattan Bridge on south) and the southernmost part of the F (south of Church Ave)
Eastern
All of todays J,L, and Z lines, and the part of the M north of the Montague Tunnel (or Queens, N. Brooklyn, and Manhattan)\
CURRENT(due to opperational concerns-mainly the yards they use)
Southern (using Coney Is. Yard)
B,D,N,Q,W
Eastern (using East New York Yard)
J,L,M,Z
The D,F, and R are essentially lumped with the IND since the D uses Concourse Yard and the F and R use Jamaica Yard.
:-) Andrew
And the other operations difference: The southern division can run either 60- or 75-foot car length, essentially the same as the IND. The eastern division can only run 60-foot cars due to sharp curves and perhgaps other clearance issues.
:-) Andrew
The eastern division can only run 60-foot cars due to sharp curves and perhgaps other clearance issues.
NO!
That's not so at all! The Eastern Division used to run 67' cars when there were 67' cars to be had! : )
:-) Andrew
The LIRR used to run on that line. Used to be a terminal at Chambers Street.
Of course those were smaller el sized cars, but what the heck.
Eastern (using East New York Yard)
J,L,M,Z
Currently, there is no such thing as the Eastern Division in the BMT. The current Districts in the system are:
Broadway - 1/9, 2, 3 & 7
East - 4, 5, 6 & Shuttle
South - B, D, N, Q, W & Franklin Shuttle
North - A, C, J/Z, L, M & Rockaway Shuttle
Queens - E, F, G, R & V
My apologies if this was brought up previously.
Click Here for the column.
It was.
It was said they were dead, but seem to have risen.
All over Baltimore, in areas othe than the "trendy" areas, businesses are investing in new neon signs, and the trade is resurging.
Walk into any "big box" wharehouse store and you see neon open and other signs for sale, right off the shelf.
How I'd change it:
MTA Dept. of Buses: Replace that RTS with a 2004 New Flyer D60HF Articulated.
MTA Long Island Bus: Dunno much about the LI Bus fleet. I guess keep the Orion V there.
MTA LIRR: Replace the M1 with an M7.
MTA Dept. of Subways: Replace the R62 with an R142A.
MTA MNRR: Replace the P32AC-DM with an M7A.
Oh, and Chris Slaight a.k.a SINY_R143, you may wanna make one so you can show us as you always have something going. :-)
What do y'all think?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a 4traintowoodlawn)
Of course, with that shot of R142A #7266, we have a placement switch on the logo, so instead of "NYCT Buses-LI Buses-LIRR-NYCT Subways-MNRR, we do it "NYCT Buses-NYCT Subways-[any order of LIRR/LI Buses]-MNRR.
Anyone have an LIRR M7 pic and/or LI Bus pic?
Maybe when we get the pix, we can have Chris (SINY_R143) snip out the train/bus area of the pic, and then stitch them all together and see what we get.
Sounds like a plan, but anyone wanna join? TIA.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Thanks for the idea Ben.
-Chris
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a 4traintowoodlawn)
If we use your R143 pic (but don't change the sign to a <4>), we will have it:
NYCT Buses/LI Buses/LIRR/MNRR/NYCT Subways
NYCT New Flyer D60HF Articulated #5750/NYCTLIB Orion V # [unknown unit #]/M7 #7012/M7A #4011/R143 # [unknown]
If we use my R142A pic (again, don't change the sign), we will have it (and I think this works better not because my photo is better IMO, but because I believe that NYCT Buses and NYCT Subways should be right next to each other):
NYCT Buses/NYCT Subways/LI Buses/LIRR/MNRR
NYCT New Flyer D60HF Articulated #5750/R142A #7266/NYCTLIB Orion V # [unknown]/M7 #7012/M7A #4011
Well, now ya know the order. Now you can work off this and I can't wait to see the result!
Won't Unca Salaam be proud that his work is being displayed. :-)
Good luck, Chris!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
But keep working on yours.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Ben, also, is the Marble Hill MNRR station good for M-7 pics or pics in general.
-Chris
IDK. I've never gone their for pix. But you can ask Brian (Sir Ronald). :-)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album127
Would that be kosher?
Best McDonald's character eVAR!!!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Uglify? Those are my favorite cars/buses! Besides, if you don't like it, maybe you can make your own. But this is my idea, and those are my favorite cars and buses. Sorry.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
After you read the entire article at http://www.am-ny.com, you can discuss the merits of the first half of "Vlissengen"'s quote, which I did not include here.
You mean a universal opinion. And it is not universal, save when it comes to rides of long distance (greater than about five miles). Nonetheless, I would take a long local subway ride versus being stuck in heavy traffic on the bus—at least I know that I would be moving as opposed to standing still.
And what of out-of-Manhattan travel? The majority of lines restrict you to local travel; very few lines have express (Fulton Street, Brighton Line, for example). I would not call the local Flushing Line service one that is "sucky" . . .
Ask Chris Rivera.
The majority of lines restrict you to local travel; very few lines have express (Fulton Street, Brighton Line, for example).
So? No matter if the line has an express track (or route) or not, I believe most people would prefer to be on an express, with all other things being equal.
I would not call the local Flushing Line service one that is "sucky"...
I never said the service is "sucky." I said a local ride, as compared to an express ride, is sucky.
It is all psychological, because in the real world, we know that there are real benefits to taking some NYC local routes over a comparable express route. And that's if you actually HAVE a choice.
I can't find the article, but how the hell can one describe the (W)'s weekend local run as "incredibly tiring"? The only two words that can describe the (W)'s weekend local run are...
NON EXISTANT.
...because the W DOES NOT RUN, local OR express, on weekends.
What do you mean you couldn't find it? All the articles are in the PDF, AFAIK.
Ducks and geese WILL eat matzoh. In fact, they'll eat ANYTHING. Last fall at Prospect Park, we saw people feeding them fried chicken and Cheez Doodles by hand. One might get the nagging feeling that it's against the law in NYC, because if you go to a park with a lake on Long Island there are signs advising you not to feed the wildlife- with a detailed explanation why. But I've never seen such signs in city parks.
We were on the bridge, having disposed of the bread and most of the open box of matzoh, when we heard hoofbeats. Two horses screeched to a stop next to us, and a female police officer on one of them politely told us to stop feeding the birds. I semi-feigned ignorance of such a law. She stated that it's a $50 fine. No further elaboration as to why you shouldn't feed the birds was offered.
Feeling embarrassed, but relieved that we got a warning instead of an outright fine, we left the ROW. I dumped the open box into a garbage can (it's more lawful to put it where the local mammals and aviary can attack it, no?), still stuck with a sealed twelve ounce box. Hating the idea of throwing it away and wasting food, I decided to hit the streets of Riverdale in search of a synagogue or nursing facility that might want it. Surely somebody would welcome it.
We walked all the way up the Manhattan College Parkway hill to the shopping districts on Riverdale and Johnson Avenues before finally happening on the Riverdale Jewish Center at Independence and 237th. There appeared to be large amount of people going in and out (bar mitzah), so we went in. I asked a congregant if they knew of anyplace I could donate the matzoh. After we got scolded by the rabbi for not eating it ourselves (Saying that matzoh upsets my stomach was not an acceptable excuse; telling the truth and saying I hate it would've been out of the question.), a middle-aged couple happily took it.
We headed down the parkway service road with the purpose of walking over the bridge into Inwood Park. A block later we saw the Riverdale Home for the Aged. Somehow I'd have much rather donated the matzoh to them.
If there's a moral to this, I'd have to say:
Just because no signs are posted telling you not to do something doesn't mean you can.
It's easier to do the easy thing- throwing something out even if it's in good condition- than the right thing, namely donating it.
Don't bother trying to walk over the Henry Hudson Bridge. The entrance by Kappock Street is fenced off for "approximately six months" according to the sign.
And to bring this parable full circle to a transit angle, we saw the MOD consist in the 207th Street yard; the Put bridges over the park path and lake seem to have been freshly painted; and the cute 'front of the subway train' employee entrance in the 240th Yard is no longer.
But watch out for those ducks. I got bit by one a few months ago. Fortunately, they don't have teeth, but it still left a bruise.
Mark
* = sounds like the same argument could be applied to city welfare policies :)
Out here it is agaianst the law to feed prairie dogs. But then Prairie Dogs do not drink. ever. They have to get all of their liquids from the things that they eat. Human foods do not have enough moisture in them for the animals to survive.
Back on Long Island, I remember taking some environmental courses in college. We had to get some water from a local pond or stream, and we would assess it in class.
Now if you know Merrick, and you know Caman's Pond, that is where I got my water. Needless to say, I got the prize for having the worst water in the class. Its the Ducks. Well, not the ducks as such, lotsa ponds have ducks. This one has people feeding the ducks (which as you say they are not supposed to do), but it is this biomass of the food that spurs alge growth and the de-oxyfication of the pond, shore grasses and things choke it off and it becomes a swamp, and then somebody fills it in.
Oh well, after I collected my water sample, I went over to the LIRR tracks for a day of photography.
: ) Elias
A free country is one where everything is allowed unless there is a rule explicitly forbidding it.
A totalitarian country is one where everything is forbidden unless there is a rule explicitly permitting it.
Fill in the blank: "Land of the [___] and home of the brave"
No relation I presume?
{Yes, I know that post is a month old.}
Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it - there are tons of laws that many dont agree with - but they are law. If you have an issue with a law - do something about it - petition a town council - campaign. That is what being free is about - having the ability to make changes.
mike
No person shall feed animals in any park (including any zoo area) except unconfined squirrels and birds, and where specifically authorized by the Commissioner. The Commissioner may also designate certain areas where all feeding of animals is prohibited. It shall be a violation of these rules to feed animals in any area where such feeding is prohibited.
As I read this, the feeding of waterfowl and other birds is permitted unless posted otherwise. As yo saw no sign prohibiting the activity, it looks as if the police officer was wrong when she told you that you couldn't feed the waterfowl.
Getting back on-topic, maybe this incident illustrates why some police claim that subway photography is illegal - they simply don't know the rules!
I would agree with someone stating that it would not be fair to get a summons without a warning if this were the case.
VCP is a big place with many ways in and out of it. It is a wilderness area. One cannot expect to see signs all over the place, yet the place needs to have rules and regulations.
Feeding birds is one thing. Feeding Waterfoul is another. Well yes, they *are* "birds", but they are really DUCKS, and as such are thought of more as animals than as birds.
Such a flap.... All birds should be RED!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.info
Mark
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
Trevor
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
"Mud is dum backwards:"
Got spelled wrong thanks to AOL!
Trevor
Your pal,
Fred
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Easy, they dress up like a terrorist. With political correctness and other factors, they will never get stopped.
Now if the hoodlums were wearing a shirt and tie, or had a camera then this wouldn't happen....
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Yeah, OK. I'm going to send a letter to Santa.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
#3 West End Jeff
Why would Warhol get a kick out of it? He did not condone grafitti.
Peace,
ANDEE
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
--Mark
#3 West End Jeff
Thank You
Trevor Logan
CulverShuttle.com
-- Ed Sachs
As for "usefulness", arguably none of the shuttles are useful.
http://www.mta.info/capconstr/fstc/deis.htm
The public hearing is on June 8th.
Is it just 300 pages of, "No significant impact expected" printed over and over, or am i missing a point?
Is it just 300 pages of, "No significant impact expected" printed over and over, or am i missing a point?
Yes, you are missing the point. The document goes into incredible detail about precisely what will be built, the construction techniques, and the sequencing. It describes 10 alternatives for the project, along with the costs, benefits and detriments of each. Two of the 10 are selected for further analysis.
The document finds very significant impacts, particularly on the 5 buildings and dozens of businesses that would be condemned. There are also very severe impacts during construction, which are described in great detail.
NYC transit(buses and subways), L I buses , L I R R , Metro North, S I R T , and others.
An employee can only ride free in his or her own subdivision .
An employee can let them on as a courtesy but they would be at risk of write up, suspention ,or termination.
As a courtesy, I will usually ride anybody with any transit agency i.d. card who asks me COURTEOUSLY and in PRIVATE. Every once in a while I'll get some arrogant s.o.b. who will think they can ride NJ Transit just because they are (for example) an MTA station agent, and they won't even ask properly. That's when they not only have to pay the fare, but also the "on board surcharge" if applicable!
Robert
They were perplexed because TA employees don't have it as good as the public thinks they do, eh?
In addition to what BRING IT ON said, showing the pass is not allowed either. An employee must swipe their pass to gain entry. A B/O or S/A refusing to accept an employee displaying their pass is within their right and protecting their job.
Da Hui
I wonder how many TA employees we have here as SubTalkers.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Although that number seems to be dwindling.
Alot of us.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Yeah, a lot of NYCT employees have that problem. They feel MTA is MTA and its their right to ride on any MTA service, despite the fact that the pass says "NYCT/MaBSTOA" and when you receive it you are told it is valid only on such service.
Then again that's not the only rule many employees just don't get...
That reminds me of a story another trainman told me of a NYCT Station Agent who rode his train from Hazlet to New York Penn on a regular basis. Out of courtesy, he rode the guy for free for several weeks, even though the guy didn't even offer as much as a Metro Card or a token (a few years ago) in return. Then one day, the trainman went to New York on his day off. He went to ride the subway and noticed that the station agent was the Hazlet passenger. He asked the agent if he could ride (open the gate? free metrocard? not sure), and the agent declined. The next time and each subsequent time the agent rode the NJT Train? $14.25 round trip, please!
P.S. I expect some holier than thou BS by Bayside Ron on this topic.
Only a Swiss Cheese could be holier than you!
: )
You see, this is why I cannot stand the majority of friggin' Station Agents. Even us T/O's sometimes have to put up with their BS. I'm firmly convinced that they were just born miserable.
In regards to one of the other posts stating that other MTA employees don't get the same treatment, unfortunately that is indeed the case. One time, I had seen a LIRR C/R trying to board the subway for free and was turned down rudely by the clerk. I then promptly, while I was in full uniform, handed the C/R $2 to pay for his ride. I've done the same for Amtrak C/R's as well. So please don't believe that all TA employees take your courtesies for granted. Your actions have been greatly appreciated by many.
As a rule we'll allow other MTA employees to enter after they show us their passesat the booth window. The rule states we're supposed to ask them to swipe themselves in at the turnstile. Those employees usually want to use the gate to enter. As a compromise we usually tell them to go thru the turnstile marked "Special Entry". We discourage the use of the gate because you never know who else will go thruwith them. There has been times when someone wanted to use the gate. As the gate is opened, a mob of people waiting by the gate for the next train has gone thru with the one employee. Especially annoying when someone is pushing a stroller thru the gate. Every once in a while we have to call that a stroller was toppled over by a mob of people.
We're also not allowed to allow people in with LIRR or MN passes. I'll remind them that we can't. But I'll usually let them go in. Unless my supervisior is in the booth with me or is standing nearby. If my supervisior says to allow the person in, fine. But if the supervisior says NO. That's the final word on it.
We'll allow other MTA employees in as a courtasy. But please don't EXPECT it.
Or they're doing their job.
We're a brother if we do a favor for someone.
Or a Mother if we don't.
-Stef
And I bet he cried about it saying he wasn't charged before.
Secondly, I realize that a Station Agent or any of the above cannot legally get "free" Metro Cards to give out. HOWEVER, if they expect me to ride them on NJ Transit for FREE, they could occaisonally (once or twice a month) PURCHASE Metro Cards OUT OF THEIR OWN POCKET to give to those who ride them for free. After all, what would you rather do? Spend $100+ something per month (the actual fare) or buy a couple of $7 Metro Cards per month? You do the math!
NYCT employee passes are N-O-T valid on NYCT's express buses. Those are premium services for which a premium fare is charged and passengers have the expectation of a seat (please, no flames -- I know people stand sometimes).
David
David
Da Hui
David
'At 12.26pm this afternoon, the leading bogie of the 7th car of a westbound Central line train derailed approaching White City. A London Underground spokesperson said: "The derailment was at the relatively low speed of around 15mph.
"Around 150 passengers were taken off the train within minutes and there are no injuries.
"As a precautionary measure, emergency services were on the scene. We are working to restore services as quickly as possible.
"The initial investigation has focused on the track. The derailment occurred at a set of points that were immobilised, while they were awaiting further track work. Speed restrictions were in place. The rolling stock was not a likely cause of the derailment."
The Central line is currently suspended North Acton to Marble Arch.'
Aargh! We don't need this on the London Undergound, especially on the Central Line. Incidentally "points" (UK) = "switch" (US), and 12.26 p.m. in London is 7.26 a.m. in New York
I presume you mean, Chancery Lane, Hammersmith, Camden Town and now White City?
You forget the Chiswick Park derailment on 16 June 2003, which caused 2 days of disruption to the District Line in this area & caused the cancellation of track replacement works at Plaistow that weekend, (engineering trains unable to operate Ruislip > Plaistow). This work is still outstanding to be done!
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Chuck
No, because there are other lines fairly close to Broadway. In most of the Lex's territory, no other line is in the vicinity.
Not at all. The Lex will still be the busiest line. It may be, however, that if they at least build the top half you will be able to breathe while riding it at peak hour.
The 7th Avenue line is vital (to a extent) being that it has much better service than the A,B,C and D.
The Flushing Line transport people from Flushing to Manhattan, and its the only subway line to go that far into Queens.
But so what? In reality, every line is vital, because if one goes OOS for a long period, the remaining lines and buses must pick up the slack.
thanks.
tim
good luck.
Track is mostly nights in the hole [underground], and mostly days outside. If you like days, then you'll have to deal with working outside in all kinds of temperatures.
Any time accrued in City employment counts toward your pension.
Yeah, we gotta unionize the crews! Dave let's get this thing going!
Any information form my Subtalk friends will be helpful.
Enjoy, you'll have a great time; there are several schools along the trolley routes and you can check out the local talent.
Your pal,
Fred
At South Station take an outbound Red Line train to Ashmont (don't take Braintree train). At Ashmont cross the platform and take the High Speed trolley to Mattapan - still uses PCC cars! Return the same way, but stay on the Red Line all the way to Harvard (HAAAVAAAD)Square. Go upstairs and take the bus (don't know which one, maybe #77, but either signs or a person can help) from the unique Harvard Square bus tunnel to Lechmere. At Lechmere get on the inbound Green Line light rail train back to downtown Boston at Haymarket (HAYMAAAAKET). This way you can ride on the Causeway Street el past North (NAAAATH) Station before it shuts down next month. At Haymarket Switch to the Orange Line going towards Forest Hills. On the Orange line platform at FH you can see Amtrak and commuter trains passing by. Return on the Orange Line to downtown Boston (Downtown Crossing). If you want to see the unique Blue Line get off the Orange Line at State and pick up the Blue Line outbound to Revere. Return on the Blue back to downtown.
And don't forget to buy a T day pass at South Station so you don't have to keep paying individual fares. There aren't many free crossovers on the T - particularly at the terminal stops - so if you get off you have to pay again.
Finally, can someone who reads this post give me info about the T's photo permit policy. Where does one have to go to get a permit, and during what hours?
Thank you.
First, make a round trip on the 71 or 73; the 1976 Flyer trackless trolleys will be disappearing soon, too.
Thank you.
I went to 10 Park Plaza (nearest station: Arlington on the Green Line.)
I went to the second floor via an escalator, and presented my photo ID to security. I told them I was going to room 6720 (6th floor).
I went to room 6720, and waited for a few minutes (it's a very large room, and there are some chairs near the entrance.) Then, someone asked me if I was getting a new permit or renewing an old one. He asked for my ID, and I gave it to him.
He went into another room, and came back in a few minutes with my photo permit (a small yellow card.) I was asked to sign it and another sheet which he kept, and he gave my ID card back.
By the way, I got the permit in April; it is good until July (nycsubway.org needs to update the "Photography on other transit systems" page.)
Also — I took photos on the system for 2 days after getting the permit, and no "T" workers questioned me at all, even with the permit!
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
All the other posts have good info too. Some more things to check out -
Red Line - Porter Sq station has a very loooong escalator. Nice art / sculptures too.
Red Line - Davis Sq station has poems in the bricks.
Red Line Central Sq ( ?? ) lever operated pipe organ type thingie.
Most of the art on the Red line was put in during expansion in the 1980's.
Red Line at Mattapan - PCCs are very cool.
Green Line - Kenmore Sq - Fenway Park. I am not a Sox fan, but checking out Fenway might interest you.
Green Line surface routes - all very cool. Riverside (eventually ) goes through a large park. I have seen deers right nextto the tracks.
If you have time try the commuter rail ( gray line on subway maps ) to Salem Mass - Witch City. Not too long a ride out of North Station.
Have fun!! Boston is a great city.
All the other posts have good info too. Some more things to check out -
Red Line - Porter Sq station has a very loooong escalator. Nice art / sculptures too.
Red Line - Davis Sq station has poems in the bricks.
Red Line Central Sq ( ?? ) lever operated pipe organ type thingie.
Most of the art on the Red line was put in during expansion in the 1980's.
Red Line at Mattapan - PCCs are very cool.
Green Line - Kenmore Sq - Fenway Park. I am not a Sox fan, but checking out Fenway might interest you.
Green Line surface routes - all very cool. Riverside (eventually ) goes through a large park. I have seen deers right nextto the tracks.
If you have time try the commuter rail ( gray line on subway maps ) to Salem Mass - Witch City. Not too long a ride out of North Station.
Have fun!! Boston is a great city.
I figured if it were possible for Unca Dave to hook up with YOU up yonder, BOTH of you would have a genuine hoot in each other's company. Dave's a great guy and would enjoy an "insider's" tour ...
You might want to check out Newton/Riverside. They've got a good sized trolley terminal for the green line there. Otherwise, idk much bout MBTA. Sorry.
Chuck Greene
No, the Visitor passes (day, 3-day, 7-day) are good on all subway and surface lines regardless of fare structure, as well as local buses, inner harbor ferries, and commuter rail zones 1A and 1B. It's some monthly passes that aren't good at outlying Green and Red line stations.
Day passes can't be purchased at token booths; get it at the Amtrak ticket window in South Station.
They can be purchased at select token booths. I purchased mine at Kenmore station, IIRC.
Your pal,
Fred
Also, don't forget to ride the neat Green (Riverside and BU branches) and Matapan trolley lines. You'll enjoy how the trolleys on the Green Line go from subway ops to street running as they get further away from the downtown 'hub'. If you love rapid transit, you'll fall in love with Boston.
I would plan a lunch time walk in the Faneuil Hall area, but if you hook up with Todd he may have an even better suggeston.
Caution, they roll the street up before midnight, so plan you last railfan trip accordingly. When I did it with Doug & Lou we caught one of the last trolleys back to our bed & breakfest on Beacon.
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
Another one I'm curious about is Brooklyn's MADR - the mega-graffittist and the bane of the Sea Beach line.
wayne
wayne
Enjoy!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Regards,
Jimmy
But I have one question: Why would MNRR be running a CDOT P32AC-DM??? Could it be because they run out of MNRR P32AC-DMs? TIA.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
No, I think Singapore was on the right track with Michael Fay a few years ago. Six of the best, trousers down, delivered in a full public ceremony in Central Park. Charge admission and televise it.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.6 Now Available!
Hope they catch the miscreant(s).
It sucks on two levels. one, your home stop got tagged, and two, these artists' tags are some of the ugliest things I've ever seen.
P.S.: I apologize for the excessive use of profanity, but this is just too much.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
???????????????????
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Those are gang related tags.
Elias
-Chris
And of course the usual, how do they get away with it, blah blah.
wayne
D to Brighton Beach!!
Same with Atlantic Ave, its bound to get f'ed up again by hoodlims.
But its "more likely" to happen in a bad neighborhood.
In this time of heightened security, ANY act that any unauthorized person does to interfere with or tamper with or mark on a trainset or any equipment, sign or tunnel wall should be investigated as a possible violation of a security breach, and the perpetrators charged accoedingly. The trainset or equipment should be thoroughly inspected for signs of tampering, the platforms inspected for any possible tampering. Perhaps if the vandals get a lesson that they are now "outside" the normal process of catch and release they will finally "get it".
This type of marking is not the same art work or tagging for the sake of making art, if that was what it could be, these were strictly gang marks, marking out a teritory or announcing the date of the next rumble or something.
HMMmmmm.... Organised gang activity... does Ashcroft know about this???
Elias
I never said it was anything other than that. That's the kind of graffiti I am talking about. What was done at Chauncey is the same type of graffiti that covered 99% of the elevated stations and trains in the 70's and 80's and also 99% of the graffiti that has since been applied regularily to stations since the graffiti free program started. The point is that it is nothing new. The MTA usually removes it within 24 to 48 hours with a fresh coat of paint, just as they have been since the mid 90's.
#3 West End Jeff
John
Make graffiti a felony, period.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Da Hui
From the Albany TimesUnion, whining from republican businessmen in a "Letter to the editor":
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=246952&category=LETTER&BCCode=OPINION&newsdate=5/11/2004
Now mind ya, these are the HIGHWAY guys, but they build subway tunnels as well. Is *anybody* happy with the GOP lately? Oh yeah, the drug companies and the oil companies. :-\
-----------------------------------------------
N.Y. could be big loser in transportation bill
First published: Tuesday, May 11, 2004
Congressional gridlock may be all that is saving New York state from
being handed one of its biggest defeats in recent history.
Negotiations between the congressional leadership and the White House
collapsed before reaching agreement on a new, six-year transportation
bill. A little-known provision being discussed could hand New York the
largest net reduction in transportation aid of any state in the nation.
The current six-year, $218 billion transportation bill expired last
September. The new bill will decide how the 18.4-cent a gallon federal
gasoline tax is distributed to states for highway and mass transit projects.
Under current law, states must get back at least 90.5 cents for every
dollar they contribute in tax. Those that pay more than they get back are
pushing hard for the minimum to be raised to 95 cents.
The U.S. Senate has passed a $318 billion transportation bill. The
House of Representatives came in at $275 billion. The White House has
been pushing to reduce spending below both figures, but it is reported its
ceiling is rising to the House level, with a 95-cent guarantee.
If the minimum guarantee is raised to this level, New York will see a net
loss under the House bill (H.R. 3550) of nearly $1.2 billion and lose
more than 50,000 jobs. The 95-cent guarantee gives New York the
largest loss of any state in the nation.
This effort to "balance funding" in this one program is especially troubling
when you consider New York receives only 83 cents for every dollar it
sends to Washington, based on overall federal spending -- ranking us a
dismal 42nd among all states.
Clearly New York's share of transportation dollars is already woefully
unfair; to reduce it even further is unconscionable.
Every New Yorker benefits from our transportation system on a daily
basis. But just as important is the negative impact the loss in federal
transportation dollars would have on future economic development and
job growth in the Empire State if Washington follows through with its
current plan.
A.J. CASTELBUONO
President & CEO
Associated General Contractors
Albany
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1106335.htm (Australian ABC news, not Disney)
Wonder wassup and why there's nothing on OUR news about this?
It's not tomorrow morning in the U.S. yet.
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=246719&category=&BCCode=&newsdate=5/11/2004
Some "serious moves" mentioned, nothing about "State of Emergency" ... that'll be your lead in the local papers in the morning though and that's about IT ...
for example:
CNN
NY Times
Bloomberg
Miami Herald
LA Times
Down in Australia, they don't use those words lightly. And (other than Rupert, and he's OURS now) they don't publish "opinion" ... there's something TO this, and I'm wondering WHAT ... after all, THEY knew about those photos we've been seeing this week back in JANUARY.
STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT
Today, I have signed an Executive Order implementing sanctions on Syria pursuant to the Syria Accountability and Lebanese Sovereignty Restoration Act of 2003. These sanctions will significantly reduce the level of trade and commercial activity between our two countries, and in particular target entities and officials in or closely associated with the Syrian government who have engaged in actions of concern specified in the Act.
Since 1979, the United States has designated Syria a State Sponsor of Terrorism due to its support for groups such as Hizballah and Palestinian terrorist organizations. In 2003, Congress passed the SAA because of Syria's continued support for terrorism, pursuit of weapons of mass destruction, occupation of Lebanon, and actions undermining U.S. and international efforts with respect to Iraq. Based on Syria's failure to take significant, concrete steps to address the concerns we have raised, I have determined that further economic sanctions be imposed.
The Syrian government must understand that its conduct alone will determine the duration of the sanctions, and the extent to which additional sanctions may be imposed should the Syrian government fail to adopt a more constructive approach to relations with its neighbors, weapons of mass destruction, and terrorism.
If the Syrian government demonstrates a genuine intention to seek true peace by confronting terror and violence, ending its pursuit and development of weapons of mass destruction, and respecting the sovereignty and independence of Lebanon, the United States will respond positively.
Similarly, I urge the Syrian government to offer its full support to the goal of a stable and sovereign Iraq, beginning with redoubled efforts along the border to prevent the movement of foreign fighters into Iraq. The Syrian government has taken some steps in this regard, but must do more, given that individuals bent on sowing terror continue to cross into Iraq from Syria. Additionally, it is time for the Syrian government to comply with its obligations under UN Security Council resolution 1483 and immediately transfer assets belonging to the former Iraqi regime to the Development Fund for Iraq.
This is a momentous time in the Middle East. I call upon the Syrian government to join the ranks of those nations that have committed themselves to political and economic reform, a decision that would benefit -- first and foremost -- the people of Syria. I sincerely hope that the Syrian government will conclude that its interests are best served by joining efforts to build a Middle East that is stable, secure, and free from terror and violence.
--from http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040511-11.html
the executive order:
"...I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, hereby determine that the actions of the Government of Syria in supporting terrorism, continuing its occupation of Lebanon, pursuing weapons of mass destruction and missile programs, and undermining United States and international efforts with respect to the stabilization and reconstruction of Iraq constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States and hereby declare a national emergency to deal with that threat. To address that threat, and to implement the SAA, I hereby order the following..."
--from http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040511-6.html
Now where's CNN and is CBS here yet? :)
THANK YOU!!!
Honsetly I just pasted the links for the news sites, I didnt even read them. I skimmed quickly to make sure it was the correct article, but usually when theres problems like this ill do research on whitehouse.gov or thomas.loc.gov, so you can get the uninterpreted info for yourself.
When I saw that on ABC.NET.AU though, that was a shock. Seems MIGHTY clear to me (especially the "Weapons of mass destruction" bit) that ... as Ronald Reagan once said, "there you go again" ...
Since the New York National Guard has run out of troops to send "over there" (you'd THINK we'd be keeping a few HERE since WE are the target) I wonder who Shrub's going to send in to war in Syria. I see a dog wagging. Wonder if the "National Emergency" might have an impact on the upcoming election. Stranger things have happened. :(
Anyway, I tried looking through the transportation bill, but I have no lcue where to find the pork! Can anyone help me out here? Only place I can find the stuff is on the internet and going to every cities newspaper and see wha tthey pick out.
Ah for the good old ("socialist") days when those who NEEDED the taxpayer funding got it instead of Enron. But yeah, I suppose this is more fair. After all, we haven't quite finished paving Idaho yet ...
A Democratic administration wouldn't be any better for New York, because it would cynically take the state for granted. Nothing is better than being the sort of swing state that both parties have to court.
And GET THIS ... the absolute BEST part of Brainboy's strategy (and that of his "Party of God") is that they're gonna screw the SWING STATES TOO! Gotta LOVE it. :)
The states that are motor centric will benefit the most. California pays an enoumous amount of this tax and will get most of its moneys back as a result of the 95% rule. California is far from conservative.
I really wish there were a New York version of Arnold. Maybe when Ronnie Coleman retires from competition ...
And isn't amazing, on a transit board, one dedicate the NY Subways, you would think cutting money for the NY Subways would be seen as bad
I didn't in any way suggest that you were against funding transit. I simply said I would think ANY attempt to cut funding for NYC transit (by anyone, Rep. Dem. WFP etc) would be condemned. Yet in this thread I have seen more support for the GOP transit funding cuts for the city rather than condemnation. I would have thought I would see more support for the way the funds had been distributed.
Did you see my post about your email? I tried to email you and it bounced twice
Money may be a bit tight right now, but not too tight to phuck away over 100 billion in Iraq this year??????
Could have paid for 5 Second Aveue subways, heck the SAS could have been 8 tracked and done in 3 years with that kind of cash.
We'd GLADLY take Gray Davis if you'll take Uncle Al ... :)
Last summer we took the Circle line trip and we "discussed" the 2003 NY State and City tax hikes to balance the budget, and how small they were (3/8% sales, few percentage points on income over 150k). Fred agreed with me they were worthwhile to preserve needed services.
So Fred will go against his fellow party of goders when he sees wisdom in the other sides arguement.
That is our point, Demorates generally support public transit (at least more so than Repubs). Hillary and Chuck are on board with transit funding and Amtrak funding.
Uncle Pothole got whipped out of office because the taxpayers FINALLY caught on to him. So what does the boy do? Cooks up a Paturkey (and wonders why we're not Thanksgiving) and even sets up a Bruno to be his upstate Capo ... like I said, if you want Honest Al, you can have him, we'll EVEN take Gray Davis in exchange if need be. He's all yours. :)
Horsefeathers. Just ask yourself where these Democratic values have gotten New Yorkers. A city and state that could be an economic leader is a deteriorating dumping ground for schmucks and losers of various stripes, where unemployment is far above the national average and the only businesses that are thriving are the moving companies taking successful and ambitious people to the Sunbelt.
OH..... How may years did we have a Republican Mayor? Senator? Governeor? And Rudy's values were perfectly moral right? HUMMMMMMMM.
1. Lincoln (who else?)
2. FDR (I agree)
3. Washington (very underrated)
4. Jefferson (should be 5th)
5. Roosevelt (should be 4th)
After that it mentions Wilson ( stubborn man and a bigot), Truman (who should be rated higher than Wilson), Eisenhower, and Jackson.
Republicans are generally anti enviroment, anti mass transit and for tax cuts for the rich. So the rich can drive there SUV's around the city and the subways could fall apart? Just look at the current transit bill, the GOP is in charge and the one tax that actually brings more back to NY than we pay is about to be changed so we it functions like most of the taxes we pay. But hey, I have no problem with the concept of a 95% minimum return on taxes paid, as long as it applies across the board to all taxes. Then let's see how NY makes out.
Remember FORD TO CITY: DROP DEAD??????
Democrates generally believe in giving the less advantage an oppurtunity, and asking those who have a lot to pay something back in taxes.
I suggest you read other parts of this thread -- in particular post 706111, where Schist Rocks! shows rather conclusively that Selkirk clearly mistitled this thread. The vote was 357 to 65. More of the 65 were Republicans than Democrats.
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040401-031322-2296r.htm (Note: WashingtonTimes is NOT WashingtonPost, founded by repubs and Sun Myung Moon)
http://www.northern.org/artman/publish/Transportation_Pork.shtml (Note: Alaskan environmentalists - ["L word!"])
http://www.detnews.com/2004/politics/0404/08/a03-116726.htm (Detroit News - "Full of tax breaks")
http://www.taxpayer.net/TCS/PressReleases/statement.htm (Taxpayers for Common Sense)
http://www.capitolgrilling.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/11670.html (and of course, I always like to offer an off-site location for further discussion)
I just *LOVE* the usual neo-con twaddle that's resulted, I post a letter to the editor from a REPUBLICAN BUSINESS LEADER and the neocontwits start jumping up and down calling me and the original author the "L-word" when we're TRUE conservatives who raised eyebrows over this usual "borrow and spend" nonsense from the very Neocons that STOLE our Grand Old Party from us ...
I don't CARE what congressfish post, or their apologists. And muddying the waters only shows how disingenuous the "party of God" truly is. And to think - in 2000, they campaigned on "WE'LL tell you the TRUTH." Nertz. :(
The link shows what the voting record was for the bill in question. This is a fact that cannot be disputed. I'm not saying this bill is or isn't bad for NY. I tried reading the text of the bill and openly admit that I have no clue what it says.
But my point is very simple. The results of the vote are indisputable. It was passed bi-partisan. All I'm saying is, you can't place the blame solely on the GOP. I'm at work now but will read your other links tonight.
~W
As a matter of background, I worked for C-SPAN ... I *built* a New York equivalent called NY-SCAN which operated for about 8 years until killed by Padre Mario in a deal with Bruno because Bruno and his party didn't feel they were getting sufficient quality "camera time." I have extensive background in political journalism going back to 1968. Sorry for the irk there, but that is JUST the "roll call" on passage. It doesn't go into the amendments, it doesn't go into what was actually voted ON, it's missing a LOT of details. Of course, for today's lazy journalists, this is all that will be printed. It's as devoid of information as all those "Kerry voted thisaway and he voted thataway" when there is no detail on what he actually voted on. You're only allowed to vote ONCE which kinda blows up the rap. :)
I thank you for passing that along of course, but that isn't even a titration test, much less an assay as to the actual contents. Did they vote on the distribution of money for transportation and transit, or did they vote for their own CHEESE MUSEUM ... That's where I'm coming from - the tallies are meaningless given that most of those who voted had NO idea of what they were voting for - their LEADERSHIP told them "oh, we took care of your problem" when in fact they didn't. If you only KNEW the way Hastert runs his house these days, they get to SEE the bill AFTER they've voted! No joke! :(
You made a good point. The neo-cons have taken the party away from the conservatives leaving them with the abortion and gun control issues. The Republican party is NOT fiscal conservative but spend and borrow. For the most part, the true conservatives had their party hi-jacked and basically are told to shut up and vote for a party that's more of a "Great Society" program than anyting in the last 30 years.
EVERYBODY was an American, bridges were built across all economic and social classes, entrepreneurship FLOURISHED, low income workers got pay raises, and we DIDN'T have deficits. Yep, the modern GOP is MUCH better. :-\
By no means do I dislike bushie because he invaded iraq, I, just like many in my mostly southern-conservative school is all for that, But it's turned into BS. YOu can't fight terrorism if you're best buds of the head wacko's family and give them special treatment. You can't fight if you open our border(he cut broder-patrol funding and fi you're a non-mexican(ie carrying prayer blankets around, or even normal south americans), you get sent on your way no questions asked).
And don't forget the great campiagn promise of being a uniter and not a divider, haha yea.
Clinton's coming out with a book I heard. Only thing is, it's 900 pages. I would like to read his book(where's my Gore??), but i'm not sure if i could handle him for 900 pages!
I was thinking of buying Bill Clinton's book when it comes out, but it's probably cheaper to use toilet paper instead.
I would, but he would give me a coherent intelligent answer, unlike his brother. Besides, he stayed out of it and let Katherine Harris screw around. harris did an absentee vote last week and forgot to sign it voiding her vote btw :)
transcript of george's press conference:
Reporter: Mr. President, if anything, what would you do different and how prior to 2001?
Georgie boy: Uh....the pressure, I wish you guys gave me these questions ahead of time. I can't think clearly. Uhh...uhh...Can we come back to the question, ic an't think of anything.
Actual televised conference 2-3 weeks ago :)
The tragic American casualty rate will not continue at the same pace as it has so far.
I guess you haven't been reading the newspapers. Thousands of Iraqis lives are being killed today. They filled up a whole football stadium with bodies (mostly civilians) not too long ago.
I've been saying for the longest time, the war hasn't even begun. Once we leave, the civil war begins and then we'll see tens of thousands of Iraqs killing each other. The winner of this civil war will not be pro-American
Now if he had said that we need to do this becuase Sadaam is evil and it is America's job to overcome evil (but then when do we stop?) and the congress ok'd it, it would be an entirely different story.
I hope you can agree with that much.
Remember we had a balanced budget (hell surplus), the wealthy paid close to a fair share in taxes and the ecomony was in good shape.
As far as Clarke, remember he was hired by Shrub Sr, so you can't call him a Democratic ideologe
Clintons years:
The joke school, nothing was really that stressful and everyone was guarentee'd jobs, nothing can go wrong, everyones happy. And that's all everyone talked about, bs aout how great teh world is.
Bushes years:
Everyones getting laid off, all the students were even laid off who make nothing. Big hotel companies either stopped hiring, or cut their demand by 50%. Everyone afraid at graduation and only a very few people with decent jobs when they walked. And how lousy everything is.
I can't believe the juxtaposition myself. At least only now did things finally almost make it close to being back to normally...until next time.
Click here to continue
Too bad it was all a sham, a sham which exploded before Bush took office.
All the time I was expecting an uneventful lame duck presidency which is what it was supposed to be, then 4 years later after the disappointment Gore would be back. Boy was I wrong here.
Now job exportation and manufactoring, I believe the president can handle better. As someone else mentioned on here, what happens when China decides to nationalize everything, creating the worlds nightmare. As an Op-ed piece said, pray for China, if they start defaulting on the worlds loans, we're all screwed like the '20s.
I guess that's pretty mcuh all I can think of, except for transporation spending, which the administration doens't want to do at all.
The attacks provided a terrific excuse for why businesses weren't doing well, even though in most cases the downturn had been in full swing by then. Even the airline industry, the one hit hardest by the attacks, had been declining - note that none of the four hijacked aircraft was even half-full.
Hope you don't mind living at home. Seriously, you just have to wait it out. I graduated from college in 1983, and it took me until March 1984 to get something other than a paper-hat job. At the time I though I had caught a break. In reality, the economy had turned.
Heh, now that you mention it, both :)
The larger economic downturn that Jeff W spoke of began about 6-9 months after than -- when all the spending by tech companies dried up
(no more travel, no more manufacturing).
Bush didn't get into office until 1/20/2001.
Most of this recession was driven not so much by a true economic downturn as it was a reversion to the mean. (Consider that in this recession unemployment never got worse than its long term average) So many things became hyper-inflated during the "Tech Bubble" that they all declined in order to get back to more normal levels.
This was neither a Clinton nor a Bush recession. If any single name needs to be placed on it one can start with Alan Greenspan.
CG
What KIND of moron couldn't see that out of fear, everybody went and bought a new computer, new software in order to ensure that there wouldn't be a smoking crater at THEIR house? And then, with all those shiny new computers, folks wouldn't be needing another for a few years? Certainly was a surprise for Wall Street and investors that the Y2K purchase cycle didn't continue forever. Can we say LEMMINGS, boys and girls? :)
Those of us in the computer industry though realized that what was before 2000 had to be replaced with NEW things, NEW toys and NEW reasons to spend on tech. And it COULD have been. Alas, the "internet" was chided as that "Al Gore" thing and as a result, the REAL crash came with Shrub when the prime mover of our economy was left to derail at a time when NEW ideas could have moved us past Y2K and into continuing enhancements to investments and the economy. Alas, last I checked, there's no oil in computers and technology. :(
CG
And with self-diagnostic, thinking, and fully integrated computers coming, why would we need all these people in the "high-tech jobforce"?
Please don't try to sell us republicanism - we LIVE here, we can SEE the difference. If the republican party ever gets rid of the kooks and re-establishes PROPER conservative views, and kicks out the jams, (Fallwell, et al) then we can talk. But for now, the GOP makes Lyndon LaRouche look sane. :(
If the Republican party ever gets total control, you can say good bye to the Second Avenue Subway and hello the the Second Avenue Freeway!
On second thought, if the city loses 1 billion dollars, you can say good night to the SAS right now.
If Al Qaeda took out Des Moines, MAYBE the attitude would change. But in THEIR mind, ALL of you are "expendible" and "already dead." :(
Heck, caring about ones fellow human beings; yep that's a loser's idea.
I know welfare = BAD corporate welfare = GOOD
Remember, it's a double-edged sword. Since it only takes a 50% majority to boot the incumbent, the threat of Recall can be held out over every key decision. Taken to the extreme, elected officials have to manage every major decision according to the polls -- and not what is best for the state in the long term. Eventually it becomes a pissing match (not unlike the appointment of Special Prosecutors at the Federal level).
If I recall, you were a history teacher. I didn't pay attention as much as I should have, but I believe the Founding Fathers intended a representative democracy to minimize the possibility that decisions are made with a bias toward short-term results and away from long-term results.
I happen to think Arnold as California Governor is a positive for the state. How he got there will -- in the long run -- more than offset those positives.
CG
CG
So MANY things went wrong at once that were actually not within politian's means to control, I don't think even Arnold could have done anything to stop it other than emptying a chain gun. :)
I wish Arnold luck in trying to reverse the situation in all sincerity. California's got decades of stupidity to overcome though, just like New York. At least THEY don't have a Paturkey or a Bruno, still no budget, handpuppets of Al D'Amato. My offer to Unca Fred to trade Honest Al for Gray Davis still stands. WE would be far better off. :)
Besides, remove Al D'Amato and the puppet show has to close down. Heh.
Gray Davis was handed an impossible job. He failed at it far worse than anyone could have anticipated.
Resume partisan differences.
California's spending levels may be high, but they're nothing compared to the way New York pours money into Medicaid and social services.
I bet you even think workers have the right to form unions to advance there cause in the workplace.
(Sarcasim intended)
There ain't been any REAL republicans since Goldwater. :(
I think the problem isn't that Politicians are Politicians, but there are different types of politicians. Here are three categories you can break them down into:
1 - Dealmakers -- People who, despite their party affiliation or geographic representation, make deals to support some things they don't care about in exchange for broader support on things that they do.
2 - Ideologues -- People who will vote their ideology nearly 100% of the time.
3 - Cronyists -- People who are in politics so that they can pay off their friends and enhance their own pocketbook.
The New York House delegation -- and particularly metropolitan NYC -- has too many Ideologues and Cronyists and not enough Dealmakers. The gerrymandering of districts to ensure the election of minority representatives doesn't help NY either. People who win elections by 90-10 margins aren't taken seriously by the national Democrats (or Republicans), unless they win for like 1000 years in a row (see Rangel, Charles). They just become footsoldiers who are counted on to provide a vote. (Vote against the national party in a key vote and we'll throw money at someone else to contest a primary against you).
On the Senate side, D'Amato and Moynahan were dealmakers. The loss of seniority in the Senate is devastating to NY. Schumer and Clinton are not -- at least not yet. Schumer doesn't have enough seniority yet to be an effective dealmaker. Clinton probably never will, both because she seems unlikely to be around for a full second term and because here interests seem to be more national (idealistic) in nature.
CG
Excellent analysis. Of course, it's not really the politicians who are to blame, but the voters. Earth to NYC voters: voting should not be a mindless knee-jerk reaction. If only this time, use your heads.
The Democrats have reaped what they sowed when it comes to the gerrymandered districts. I'm sure they've recognized their dilemma but don't know what to do about it.
Consider a hypothetical state with 10 congressional seats and a population that is split exactly 50-50 Democrat and Republican. Then create two districts that are 90-10 Democratic. What you are left with are 8 districts that now average a 60-40 Republican tilt. Even if you only create one district, you're left with a 54-46 Republican advantage in the remaining 9. And the Democrats wonder how a country with a 50-50 split of party affiliation can have such an overwhelmingly Republican House of Representatives...
The people living in the gerrymandered districts get absolutely screwed. The Democrats they elect are largely powerless (does anyone in Congress really look to Greg Meeks or Nita Lowey for leadership?)The Republicans (much to their discredit) do nothing to develop viable candidates in these districts. Any opposition to the incumbent must be grass roots based -- and any inroad they make is normally squashed just by pointing out that they are a Republican right at about the time some Lunatic Fringe Republican opens their Pie Hole.
CG
This example isn't too far off from what really exists in some states. Note that the Democrats probably wanted this arrangement in the first place, as it guarantees that the voters in the two overwhelmingly Democratic districts (minorities, almost certainly) will get representation. It also means that the Democrats are sure to get at least two seats from the state. But the Democrats will lose out in the long run, as its entirely possible that the two seats is all they're ever going to get, or at most one or two more (in theory, they otherwise would have the risk of getting no seats, or just one, but statistically that would be very unlikely given the state's overall even party split). For their part, the Republicans will have to put up with two Democrats in the state's delegation, losing their chances for a clean sweep, but should be able to hold most or all of the remaining eight.
In short, it's a Democratic idea that actually favors the Republicans.
It's incredible how often this happens (and vice versa).
Though I consider myself an independent, I vote Republican far more often than that. I wasn't complaining -- merely stating a fact.
Each party appears to be equally capable of forgetting why they were elected when they have a congressional majority and a sitting president.
CG
If you're going to skimp, why not fund things at what DOT considers a minumum level. I guess that 100billion dollars is needed for Iraq again. Look for you know who to go to congress in the next few months to ask for that money.
In the "contract ON America" in the 90's, the formula was modified to ensure that states that had little or no need for federal highway funds would receive "funny munny" to build roads to nowhere and to pave Idaho RATHER than fund the Second Avenue Subway or widening of the L.I.E. Now they want to diddle the formula even more so that states with a LOT of residents (California, Texas, New York and Florida) get to pay MORE so that Idaho can have a BIGGER chunk with which to pave the mountaintops rather than build a lower Manhattan transportation center or the Second Avenue Subway. It means the urban areas get MORE gridlocked, and the air gets worse, and *WE* have to pay the taxes and get even LESS money back so they can pave Idaho.
It's MUCH more complicated than that, but suffice it to say the Party of God is going to raise YOUR taxes so that states can build new roads for the caribou. And byebye SAS ...
Good one... The Second Avenue Subway may die a slow death if this passes. We might be more money back if we pave the Second Avenue Subway for SUV's.
The congress websites are really quite amazing. You can research any bill, see how people voted, and read the bills themselves. In this case, if you take a look at the vote for this bill, you'll see that the vote to approve was 357 to 65. In fact, MORE democrats voted for this bill than republicans. More republicans were AGAINST it.
According to this guy:
If the minimum guarantee is raised to this level, New York will see a net loss under the House bill (H.R. 3550) of nearly $1.2 billion and lose more than 50,000 jobs. The 95-cent guarantee gives New York the largest loss of any state in the nation.
So, you may be right that the bill screws NY - I honestly don't know becasue this crap is too ridiculous for me to decipher. But it looks like you're anger at the GOP for this is misplaced.
You can promplty go here and switch parties before the next election. :-)))
~W
link to H.R. 3550 vote details
FWIW, *important* republicans up here (and downstate as well) HIGHLY condemn this bill. It isn't about democrat propaganda ...
All I see, is that in the opinion piece you posted, the guy claims this bill will be devasting to NY. You took that and used it to blame the GOP - when in fact this bill passed overwelmingly. Is it fair to just blame one party in this case?
It's this kind if politicizing that's getting the democratic party into trouble these days. I wish they would base their objections on real substance so they have some solid ground to stand on in Nov.
It's also interesting to note, that at least 3 of the yays, were democrats from NY (one from NYC):
Timothy Bishop - (D) NY
Carolyn McCarthy - (D) NY
Gregory Meeks - (D) NY (queens!)
I wish I could actually understand this stuff though. Sometimes its hard to get yourself informed.
Now, back to topic...favorite express run...definately the W4th-34th st run! :-)
~W
Was this a speed setting feature, where the train can be calibrated to run at a faster speed if it were running express (similar to what the R-46 had before its GOH)?
How long was this feature used on the R-62A? Is this also found on the R-62, or other cars?
Also, was this feature disabled when many of the R-62A cars became five-car sets? Or, is there an outside chance this feature is still usable?
Thanks in advance.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
If you ask me, it was all a dumb idea, and of course it created
an easy way to perform the great fleet neutering.
:)
M-3: 9771-9944. Extended to 9946 when 9891-9892 were renumbered following the 12/07/1993 shooting.
M-7: 7001 - at least 7254, more on the way. Option orders are for a total of 680 cars, which would put the upper roster limit at 7679.
C-3: 4001-4088 inclusive; 4090-4134 (EVENS ONLY); 5001-5023 (motors)
Engines: 400-422 (single mode); 500-522 (dual mode)
wayne
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
How did the interior of those two cars differ from any other LIRR cars other than the car numbers?
How would that have made better sense. The cars didn't kill the people, Colin Ferguson did. If anything, clean up the cars, replace any materials that have bullet holes in them, change the numbers and put them in service. Who's going to know?
As a matter of fact, the typical commuter wouldn't even know the number of the car the incident took place in.
I saw car 9001 at Jamaica last Sunday. It felt kind of special to me, anyway.
FOR THE CURIOUS: LIRR M-1 ODD COUPLES:
(Odd numbered unit first)
NOTE: THIS LIST MAY NOT BE COMPLETE.
9053-9120
9083-9402
9187-9502
9271-9002
9323-9102
9413-9430
9419-9060
9613-9442
9619-9312
9725-9718
wayne
And I have a question for 1 train riders. Have you found a lot of hot cars already this spring? I'm finding quite a few cars to be without A/C already before the summer really starts. I hope this is not the begining of savings bucks via deferring maintence.
David
I'll check on it next time I get a hot car (should be today)
(I was also on a hot bus this afternoon, but I'm afraid I can't make a similar remark about UP's high standards. I emailed it in anyway.)
til next time
Under the Car Appearance Program cars are to be cleaned within 24 hours.
Cars that are tagged are left in service to avoid a disruption. Most terminals do not have he capability to pull off a quick swap in able to keep service running at the required headway.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
The signs at a Manhattan subway station briefly displayed the message, "Volume Fourteen, Number Three," and "The Hacker Quarterly." "The Hacker Quarterly" is a Long Island-based magazine that chronicles the activities of computer hackers. It was not clear what the message was meant to convey.
Editor Emmanuel Goldstein said he knew nothing of the incident. "I hope nobody was confused and thought it came from us," said Goldstein, whose magazine offers tips on hacking into computer systems but does not condone destructive behavior.
The electronic signs have been invaded before, said Julio Lussardi, a Transit superintendent.
"It's more of a nuisance than anything else," Lussardi said.
Old story, did you guys know this, or what station it was?
# 5 to Global Default Zone.
49 years ago tomorrow, May 13, 1955 will be the first day of overcrowding on the Lexington Avenue Line.
#3 West End Jeff
49 years later they still do!
#3 West End Jeff
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Some might have walked. From what I understand, many El trips were quite short, so walking sometimes was an option.
Between 110th St and 103rd Street AND
Between Chatham Square and Chatham Square.
The signage would have helped to identify the train but the signage was fair game for graffiti artists and so train identity was sometimes a mystery. PA announcements were so flawed, they didn't help much either.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
There was grafitti in the 1950's, and the early 1960's as well - the DIFFERENCE being that way back when, it was subject to the SAME realities that the luxury of HAVING an economy offered - money available to spend for REPAINTING ... wasn't until the "heady times" of Nixon and FORD that the MONEY to solve the "problem" evaporated and thus tagging REMAINED because "paint funds" didn't exist at a time when the MTA had to RAISE paychecks to get phuckers like ME to hire on to take up the INSANE lack of employees to run trains (ANYONE who was around in 1970 can tell you that OVERTIME was FORCED upon us because the TA was *SO* short of people that when *I* expressed an interest in motors, I was in schoolcar for MOTORS within TWO WEEKS of being a conductor ... and I *WENT* for it ... that's how BAD things were back then ...
The DECAY of the subway was PURELY economic, brought together by two forces - the BATARDIZATION of Barry Goldwater's REPUBLICAN party by LIBERALS like Percy and Rockefeller (NIXON, 'nuff said) and the unpaid DEBT service (like Shrub's giving) all congealing in a mess. Such was the state of New York ("Ford to NYC: DROP DEAD!") after Rockefeller became VEEP and DUMPED his personal financial guarantees on the rest of HIS offspring (read that as YOU) ... republicans of POST Goldwater have NO problem giving the high hard one to those in their teens and twenties ... welcome to reaping what THEY sowed. :(
Just wanted to give you a bit of balance, since I'm NOT a whiny-assed liber-rail ... but MAN ... I thought you SAW the realities and were there for it. My apologies ... I understand now why you disagreed with my "rhetoric" about "PAY as you GO" and WHY that's important. And WHY I respected CLINTON for DOING that. I musta sounded like a demo pansy. :)
http://www.mta.info/mta/news/hearings/capitalprojects.htm
Notice the ATS item for B Division!
-- 50th St IND. According to the write-up, "additional stairs" will be opened or re-opened.
-- 59th/Columbus Circle (both IRT and IND). This station complex is long overdue for a rehab. It will become ADA compliant. The writeup also says, "use of a center island platform for transfer." We all know which platform they mean, but what could the intended service pattern be?
-- IRT Chambers Street will get a complete overhaul, and will become ADA compliant. This must be the ugliest express-local transfer point in Manhattan; a station in truly awful shape.
-- Bleecker Street on the #6 and Broadway-Lafayette on the B/D/F/V. There is a quaint beauty to the architectural ruin that is Bleecker Street, which will be brought into the 21st century while preserving the landmarked original station. Although unclear from the description, let us hope they'll bring the extension part of the platform up to the level of elegance of the original station. The whole complex will become ADA compliant, and the long-overdue transfer from the southbound #6 to the IND station will be added. The east mezzanine of Bway-Lafayette will re-open.
-- Wall St on the 4/5. The effects of the 1980s rehab will be revsersed, and the original platform wall treatment be restored.
-- 135th St on the 2/3 will become ADA compliant.
-- Kings Highway on the Brighton will become ADA compliant.
-- Church Avenue on the Culver will become ADA compliant.
-- Broadway/Lafayette will become ADA compliant.
-- Bowling Green will become ADA compliant.
Bleecker St. should get a historically sympathetic treatment throughout, I expect-- both because, IIRC, the original platforms are landmarked by the city, which means the work will have an additional level of oversight, and because MTA has done such nice things with the other recent IRT rehabs (103, 110, 116 on the West Side, Atlantic Av). Columbus Circle is definitely a landmark (what's left of it in the original condition, anyway), and I hope they'll cast some copies of those caravel tiles to cover the rest of the platforms there.
I had no idea that Bwy-Lafayette had a closed east mezzanine, presumably extending under the IRT to the far side of Lafayette St... that makes things pretty easy. They plan to close the part-time booth on the north side of Houston at Crosby St and insert the street elevator there, and move the full-time booth on the uptown IRT platform to the east mezzanine entrance at Lafayette and Houston. We had speculated about gas tanks under the sidewalk, but they don't mention any underground remediation problems. It seems so straightforward that you have to ask why this wasn't done twenty years ago--$31 million isn't a huge amount of money for such a valuable improvement.
I wouldn't necessarily assume that the closed east mezzanine extends under the IRT.
Don't you mean the northbound 6? The transfer to the southbound 6 has been there for decades.
Yes, sorry.
This will be interesting to observe - the platform is too narrow for an elevator now, IMHO.
--Mark
Would P.dougherty be the one from forest hills,went to Loyola H.S.,has a bro named Paul,father worked for the times,?
Nope, Sorry. No relation to that one. I'm a Canadian, born and raised in Montreal, lived in Toronto for 21 years or so and moved to Queens in 2000.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.6 Now Available!
Now, I'm just curious: was this REALLY written by THE Jabbour, or is someone on this board just pulling my leg? Well, I guess the only way to find out is to ask...so, mr. Jabbour, please respond?
PS: if this really is your comment, I'm sorry for the initial mistrust, it's just that anybody could use your name...but it wasn't me!
I was just wonderin cuz I've been drawin up plans and such for a new rail system across PR based on old rail lines. One of which was from San Juan to the southwest shore. If diesel trains could operate with Tren Urbano, then I'd have a route to Bayamon already. Also, they wanna extend it to Caguas. There's an old ROW from Caguas to the east shore. I thought maybe re-open that and then the trains would continue via the Tren Urbano tracks to San Juan. Problem is, they'd probably have to make all the TU stops, which would just be a nightmare for timing.
As for a bridge between Cuba and Africa, that is stupid. If anything will be built across the Atlantic (and it WILL!) it will be a tunnel, and it will most likely go from New York to London via Canada, Greenland and Iceland.
Vacuum maglev can be faster than an airplane because there are no problems with air. That is currently impractical.
San Fran to Russia sound good?
Mark
I assume that Harry Beck will post his photos in his www.nycrail website, they should be great.
Gee... How do you get those trains to ride on their sides like that?
: )-
Corrected photo resent
Thanks Elias, you are always a gem.
(Shameless Plug)
Mike
You can do that at Shore Line, too, but you'll have to join the museum and wait until Members' Day next April.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
That was corrected after I put in my complaint (or just coincidental). Although I put in antoher complaint that resulted in better bus service because no one was aware of what was going on.
Actually, we did have a way, just we weren't informed that it existed. Initially with the last version of this GO the shuttle bus stopped in front of the AirTrain doors and we were told we had to exit through the station. It turned out the gates to the N/B platform were open, just no one was told. Noiw the bus stops at a shelter about half way between the two, so its easy access for neighborhood residents and AirTrain customers.
Bring on the Eastern Division!!!
Bring on 9th Avenue Lower Level!!!
Regards,
Jimmy ;)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
David is overdramatizing the situation.
Benjamin is overdramatizing the situation. Brah.
The problem was that I didn't read Newkirk Plaza David's message properly, when he said You won't be seeing the mighty Arnines heading out to the Rockaways, I accidentally read it as "No MOD Trip" altogether. So you were right, I was overdramatizing, and thanx for correcting me.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
AFAIK, it has only been done south of Broad Channel once on Sunday trips. I'm not sure how many times they have gone south of Broad Channel on Saturday trips.
Koi
No access to the eastern division unless Bill miraculously gains the right to run on the Bay Ridge LIRR line :(
Could pull a train at the Junction and sent it to Pitkin.
Yes, indeed it is. I stole the picture from Harry Beck.
I bet he didn't know that there was a LION sitting on that signal a few feet from his nose when he took the picture.
(Q) Broadway Express!
: ) Elias
The only TRUE Broadway Junction station is on the L line. That one underground is Broadway-East New York!
Calling the IND station there "Broadway Junction" is like calling the IND station at Roosevelt Avenue "74th Street." It's not acceptible.
It was on a G train at Court Square.
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
M 4th Ave express
M Nassau St. Local
M to 9th Avenue
-Broadway Buffer
Wrong. The M does not terminate at 9th Avenue currently, and if you count past routings, you must count the yellow diamond B as well. 1987, Ditmars Blvd-Astoria to Stillwell Av-Coney Island, via Astoria Local/Broadway Express/Manhattan Bridge/4 Avenue Express/West End Local. Rush hours only.
Oh, and take care of yourself around Broadway Junction. My friend got mugged and beat up there last week.
-Broadway Buffer
Oh, and take care of yourself around Broadway Junction. My friend got mugged and beat up there last week.
-Broadway Buffer
-Broadway Buffer
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Mark
Mark
Mark
None of the Breda cars saw service on opening day. It was several weeks before the first set was excepted for revenue service. There was a set of 4 Breda cars parked at the outbound platform track C2 at Huntington (C15) on opening day Saturday 12 17 1983 to show the public the new cars.
John
Mark
:-) Andrew
Please fill in the blank: The answer is the beautiful BMT Br_____n Line.
That's my favorite, anyway. Too bad it's only used for diversion service.
Seriously though, the Broadway El full express is quite a speed demon. I have ridden it quite a few times during GO's or reroutes, and it is very fast, and I guess because it's on an el it seems faster.
It is one of my favorite express runs. I do also like the Lexington Express between Brooklyn Bridge and Grand Central, but that also may be because that's also one of my favorite lines in general.
(and yes, the Brighton ain't to shabby either).
The Brighton express is my favorite stretch of express track......
I, too, have always been a fan of the Brighton Express for all of the reasons mentioned by another subtalker in this thread.
D to Brighton Beach!!!!!!!!
(5) line nice outdoor view(Bronx), express in a 3 boroughs
(5) line nice outdoor view north of E 180 ST, express in all 3 boroughs
The Brighton express run is also a personal favorite of mine.
Nevertheless, the ride on the Broad Street Subway is really something that has to be experienced in order to be believed.
A little bit better outbound (almost no timers) than inbound (a few timers), but a tremendous ride. With a Rail Fan Window!
It's what NYCTA express runs used to be in the past BT, (Before Timers).
All the good rides don't have to be called "Express"
The LIRR Nostrand Avenue westbound platform was used as a background on the cover of an Ohio Players album, decades ago.
The Babylon Express ROCKS!
One of the best expresses though are the summer Sunday night Montauk branch westbound Hampton expresses. There are some that run non-stop between Westhampton and Jamaica, with not even Patchogue as a stop. They are still good, but were best when they ran with the old equipment. They usually had two GP38-2's on the front, and nothing on the back. You would then be able to stand in the open vestibule of the rear car with the ultimate "anti" railfan window opening.
And of course even along the stations it ran through were great. I remember being on the Oakdale platform one Sunday evening, and the speed and noise as it went by were phenominal. Of couse, nothing could beat the rumbling of the GP38's as they worked like that, and Oakdale was still low level, so you almost got swept away as the train sped by and pelted you with dust.
The effect you describe at Oakdale also held at NHP and Merillon when an Oyster Bay, Port Jeff or Montauk train went through- ground shaking, car alarms set off, animals fleeing for cover. The M1-3s also attain great speed as express through the whole straightaway from Bellerose to Hicksville- albeit with a slight slowdown for the switch at Mineola.
I've never had the privilege of riding a Ronkonkoma express, but the way the M1-3s blow through Bethpage is very impressive. Even the off-peak locals run very fast from Farmingdale through Brentwood. We can thank the planners of the original LIRR Main Line, who strove to make the ROW as straight and level as possible.
Port Wash expresses from Flushing through Great Neck are very fast as well.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
A number of rear-end mishaps in the eighties, and a 1995 fatality on the Willy B have made timers a politically correct evil.
-The "F" express run between 21 St. and Roosevelt/Jackson.
Other notables include the express along Queens Blvd and the ML IRT runs in Manhattan.
I guess I'd have to go with the Empire Builder between Minot and Chicago. It has nice views and sometimes gets up to 90 MPH. Of course it is also usually two to four hours late into Chicago, but what the heck, on AMTK they mark it as an "On Time Arrival" if it arrives on the CORRECT DAY!
: )-
The 7 Express from Woodside to Junction Blvd is nice and speedy too.
And the Brighton express is cool too.
ROFLMAO!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Thanks to signal problems at Prospect Park, my B first reached PP 23 minutes late, and then it was sent down the local (presumably because the switch was spiked to send everything down the local until it could be repaired). The Q behind my train was sent down the West End, but I don't know how far (if I knew it was going to come back up the Brighton from the back in service, I would have taken it -- but they often drop out at Bay Parkway, and the B1 from Bay Parkway takes forever).
The timer at Elmhurst needs to be burned/destroyed/defacated. Hell, ALL TIMERS in that stretch should be obliterated.
The whole Brighton express run.
The whole Flushing express run. I miss those R33/36 WF though.
The entire IRT 7th Ave Express run. I hope the MTA didn't put any more timers on the express tracks.
Favorite non-express runs (in no particular order)...
The A between Howard Beach and Broad Channel.
The PATH between Harrison and Journal Sq.
The N/R/W through the 60th Street tunnel under the East River.
I agree, although it was better in years past. Picture that in a green R10 on a sticky hot summer morning with all the windows and doors open, speeding along, with just the sound of the speeding flanges on the rails, sounding like the train was just about to derail....ah the memories....
-PATH between JSQ and Harrison
-PATH between JSQ and Grove
( 2 ) Chambers Street to 96th Street
Exactly!
Yesterday, I was on an E train that entered the Northern Boulevard curve at 50 MPH!
* N/W from Lexington/60 to Queensboro Plaza.
* 7 from Willets Point to Queensboro Plaza (southbound only from Wilets Point to Junction. There are too many timers on the northbound stretch!)
* 7th Avenue Express
* Brighton Express
Both mainline IRTs, especially in un-A/C R17s, 21s and 22s.
The Queens and Hillside INDs in a 1/9. Even as late as fall '75, they still had it.
Flushing express in a WF consist. The 62As just don't have that same kick.
4th Avenue and Brighton in a 32 or 42. Even the notoriously slow 44s did well on the Brighton.
CPW in an R10, whose excessive volume probably made it seem faster than it was. The 32s and 42s were no slouches either.
From a modern standpoint:
Queens IND still superior outside of congested peak hours, especially inbound descending into the Northern bypass and outbound on the straightaway through 65th into Roosevelt.
Both mainline IRTs above 42nd are still quite good- even the 142s do them justice, though the 62s seem much faster in comparison. Honorable mention to the downhill from Grand Central to 59th. Below 42nd can be inconsistent, though the Park Avenue straightaway is still quite good off-peak.
Though short, the 8th Avenue from 59th to 42nd and 34th to 14th are still great fun thanks to sharp downgrades on both. I've stayed on 38s I intended to leave at 59th just for the speed- and front window.
CPW is generally worthwhile only in a 32 or 38, though the 44s and 68s also handle the downgrade at 103rd uptown well.
Nothing today can beat the Brighton/Slant confluence.
It's great to have the 6th Avenue run back- and with Slants.
No one is the thread has mentioned the Fulton express, which is good even in a 44, let alone a 32 or 38! There's no slowdown on the sweeping curves on either side of Liberty, and there's a nice downhill into Nostrand from both directions. It wasn't until December '88 that this run became available other than rush hour, so I never got to enjoy it on a 1/9, 10 or Slant.
Also not mentioned is the elevated Pelham run, which is a nice straightaway with downgrades in both directions from the river bridge all the way to Parkchester. While the 142As handle it well, the Redbirds and 62As obviously were much better. The underground Pelham is a nice long run completely wasted by timers and morning congestion.
The West Farms express has always been a terrible disappointment all the way back to the R12s and 15s. It must be that the structure is too old to support any decent express speed.
The MN expresses on the New Haven (New Rochelle to Old Greenwich) and Harlem (White Plains to 125th) are always a thrill at the railfan window.
-Broadway Buffer
I also like the stretch between Howard Beach JFK and Broad Channel on the A
6TH AVE Exp B,D 34TH ST - W4TH ST
there is alot of them I like too many to list
My favorite is the Evanston Express in Chicago between Belmont and Howard. Very fast. Really cool when they had problems on the Ravenswood and I got to ride it on 3200s.
Cool but not really express:
Skokie Swift
South Side (Green Line) between Roosevelt and 35th.
Matt
The Brighton Express sounds cool--I will have to add it to my list of things to do.
Matt
The London Underground and the WMATA are smiliar in operation practices. They close during the light night hours for track work etc. So there are never any disruptions during the day. Now inspite of the operation times, the WMATA rarely has a problem with operations during the day, and derailments are almost non existant. Now this could be for many great reasons (budget, equipement) while the London Underground outside of the Jubilee Line Extension seems to be plagued by 1970's NYC problems (I hear from friends out in London there are spots of heavy grafitti) and the derailements, and breakdown of rolling stock (didnt a rolling stock problem shut down a line sometime back...the central line or hammerstock and city?) So can't the L.U. take advice from WMATA on how to handle operations and procedures?
The London Underground from various sources is going through some rough times. How come the british government isn't pumping more money into it? They are into it's Regional Rails. (Also privitizing) but it should be a major concern because since these lines are two trackers, a derailment, or rolling stock problem could be a potential disaster for any one line.
Now, can I may be wrong, and if I am on some of my points I apologize. I think though that maybe the WMATA could offer some 411 on how to handle situations.
Maybe the whole system, needs a standardized fleet, because I know they have stock from the 60's 70's rolling about, just for the jubilee line extension they have the latest stock (forgot what it's called) The British Government should grant the L.U. a huge grant, to the purchasing of enough cars to replace the entire fleet with new cars. Especially from Alstrom and Kawasaki (maybe Bombardier even, or other builders) Having a strong, new fleet system wide will be a great thing. Also maybe they need a capital program similar what the MTA has.
WMATA and NYCTA took the best parts of the L.U. when designing their system, maybe it's time to help out.
Before I am done, is the trains that run on the extension CBTC or ATO?
Also, note that the LU has two different sized trains like the IND/BMT and IRT in New York.
Subsurface lines:
District
Hammersmith and City
Circle
Metropolitan
East London
Tube Lines:
All others
Note how the door continues below the platform on the Picadilly Line train and the roof of the A Stock train (Metropolitan) on the inbound track.
Finchley Rd. to Stanmore.
Rayners La. to uxbridge.
Hammersmith to Hounslow and Rayners Lane.
Queens Pk to Stonebridge Park (and Watford)
East Finchley to MHE & High Barnet
Leyton to Hainault & Epping (&Ongar)
In each case the Low Level trains shared (or replaced) normal sized trains.
L.U. *is* going to get a lot of new rolling stock soon, one of the benefits supposedly of the controversiao part-privatisation. The subsurface lines have no rolling stock post-1980 at all, and the oldest (the A stock) is past its 40th birthday. Standardisation is not as much of an issue as it might seem, because the deep tube lines are each pretty well self-contained. Ironically the oldest tube stock is on one of the newer lines - the Victoria Line still has the rolling stock it opened with in the 1960s, though it has had a thorough refurbish along the way.
"WMATA and NYCTA took the best parts of the L.U. when designing their system, maybe it's time to help out."
I know how old the L.U. is, don't worry. though its okay.
It's rail that a good part of the SubTalk community has never seen first hand.
BTW, Fytton, I sent you a couple of e-mails. Did you receive them?
It's called something different now. It's part of St. John's University I think.
Mark
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I also had my first ride on a rehabbed Breda tonight on the Blue Line. The first couple of cars were 3000 series and mine was 2011. Then, I was treated to a CAF train on the orange coming home.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Sounds like the dreaded e-mail auto acknowledge loop. I belong to a e-mail mailing list where one of the subscribers that worked for Maryland MTA had e-mail auto acknowledge for all incoming massages. Needless to say every auto acknowledge massages sent by the Maryland MTA mail server prompted the mailing list server to send a massage to all of the other subscribers as well as subscribers that worked for Maryland MTA. I think I ended up with some thing like 70 massages before the mailing list administrator broke the loop.
John
Associated Press
Tuesday, May 18, 2004
WASHINGTON - Metro said it would resume its e-mail alert system on Wednesday, one week after it was shut down after going haywire.
Subscribers to eAlert receive messages about delays on subway lines. But on May 12, Metro temporarily pulled the plug after dozens of copies of the same message were sent. One e-mail address at The Associated Press received 189 copies of a Red Line alert _ which had been cleared hours earlier.
By Tuesday afternoon, Metro spokesman Steve Taubenkibel said the system was working properly, and Metro expected to resume eAlert service at 1 p.m. Wednesday. Metro also plans to monitor the system after it is turned back on.
Metro first experienced a problem on May 7, when repeated copies of a message about a Blue Line delay were sent out. The system was shut down for about 24 hours while repairs were made. Four days later, a similar incident occurred and the system has been off-line ever since.
Metro said it has nearly 22,000 subscribers to the eAlert system, which began 18 months ago.
Passengers register by going to Metro's Web site. The messages are sent to computers, PDAs, text pagers and cell phones.
For more information, visit http://www.wmata.com
You mean our Subtalker Amanda. There is also a black woman with a video camera who also frequents the MOD trips as well. Very nice you gave the woman a tour of Branford while you were there.
LOL!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Mike
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(BTW you sounded like OJ. AS YOU CAN SEE, THE GLOVE DOES NOT FIT)
I thought that was your ex wife???????? So how is extra extra treating you? Rookie. How many weeks vacation do you get? One? Maybe in a year or two you can pick a job... Get teh resume's ready! This job ain't for you!
His Extra-extra job was trying to hunt me down on the Q line. He was quite successful last Saturday afternoon. :-D
A 1930's PRR tower that is a sister to WINSLOW. - Jersey Mike
You put out more foam than an airport crash truck.
So do I.
Cool.
Actually, I'd rather tour the Honda plant in Ohio and see where my two Shadows were born.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Such occurs when one relies on a machine to do the work of the human mind. I do not use words like fuck or shit on a normal basis, I was not brought up that way. Such words were never a problem on this board, and their occassional use does not cause any significant problems. It should be up to the posters to decide what to post and the readers to decide what to read.
But I look at the post limits and the "flowering poo" as a sign of displeasure from above because folks can't figure out that we shouldn't be doing that. But I'll leave it there. No point in arguing.
You can't compare using a few obscene words to Grand Theft Traino. :-)
How so? It isn't 7 P.M. yet.
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
til next time
-Julian
til next time
HAHAHA!
Passing by 207 on the 1 tonight about 7:20 or so I'd seen a few techs
in the T/O position of trainset 7096-7097-7098-7099-7100
apparently trying to get the Rmadillo movin'.... and seemed luckless.
Da Hui
-Julian
Maybe C division is getting the R131s? Might they run them on fantrips or stick a pair in the musuem fleet?
Warning over
Doesn't matter. People will be quoting your words as the truth in a matter of days.
wayne
I'm sure the design documents will burn well.
-Julian
wayne
til next time
Wow, this article brings up a whole ton of interesting issues. I don't even know where to begin.
Let me start with this:
To boost tourism and weekend shopping, lower rates would apply off peak...The plan's backers say it would both raise much needed cash and meet Ken Livingstone's objective of pricing passengers off the Tube and onto buses instead.
So they are going to charge more during the peak period in order to convince people to shop and tour more during the off-peak period? No. Usually you charge more during to peak period to convince some people (COMMUTERS) to travel outside of the peak period. Oh, so they want the commuters to take the bus during the peak period? That's gotta be a first. Unless such a newly "more attractive" bus can be proven to actually save measurable time on my commute, no one is going to price me off MY subway.
The article seems to be saying that there is excess capacity in the streets right now.
If you had just spent 30 minutes on a bus travelling the two(?) miles from Oxford Circus to Marble Arch (as I have today), you really wouldn't say that. Most of that time was stationary, and all the traffic was other buses and taxis, which are the only things allowed on most of Oxford Street and neither of which pay the new congestion charge.
To say that the parallel Central Line is more congested than the buses on Oxford Street is just plain dumb.
Here's the problem. They overinvested in bus transport and are looking for passengers to justify this expense. If the money used to buy new buses were used for the tubes, there might not be a need to raise the fare and move the passengers over to the bus.
However, it's a 10-15 year project to add a major new tube line, and you have to do something in the meantime.
Seriously, I think the problem here is that there are too many services running along a narrow street–which they can’t really widen because they need the pavement for the tourists!
Of course, if any of the services were rerouted you would be able to hear the resulting whining the other side of the Atlantic!
More efficient use could be made of Oxford St simply by through-routing the various terminating services. Currently the following services terminate:
MARBLE ARCH
30 from Baker St / Gloucester Pl
159 from Regent St
390 from Tottenham Court Rd / Gower St
OXFORD CIRCUS
3 from Regent St
25 from High Holborn
55 from Theobald's Rd
113 from Baker St / Gloucester Pl
137 from Park La
176 from Charing X Rd
189 from Baker St / Gloucester Pl
C2 from Portland Pl
ST GILES' CIRCUS
1 from Kingsway
14 from Charing X Rd
134 from Tottenham Court Rd / Gower St
242 from High Holborn
HOLBORN
98 from Edgware Rd
171 from Kingsway
Do I ever remember that!
I thought NYC's crosstown buses were the slowest imaginable, then I experienced Oxford Street.
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/closed-SF-walk/911related00012
As you guessed, that is the inbound H&M tube on the southern part of the wall. At the northern part you see what look like a series of three openings. I believe those openings are where you enter the PATH Terminal after coming down the escalator. As far as the outbound H&M tube, I've never seen it. I assume it was either covered over or destroyed or just hidden up in the area where the remains of the former WTC underground parking garage is.
It's likely that the old station will continue to be underneath World Trade Center II. Interesting how the 1971 station was completely obliterated, but the 1909 station may continue to be there for decades to come.
And if so, how come I don't ever recall seeing a "pit" between Church St and "Greenwich St" where the foundation of WTC 4 & 5 would have been removed and the roof of Hudson Terminal exposed?
Because the foundations of 4 and 5 WTC mostly haven't been removed. They weren't destroyed by the collapse of 1 & 2 WTC, and are mostly still there. They may have removed part of the foundation of 5 WTC to build the upper portions of the new PATH terminal.
Is that so? Then my impression of the site must be all wrong.
Is not the new station essentally the same as the 1971 station: i.e. built on the low bedrock (7th) level of the site.
Was not the old 1909 station on the on the old 4th/5th level of the site, in the middle of what is now an empty bathtub.
Can you not still see the tunnels of the old 1909 H&M midway up the west wall toward the south end?
I thought the 1909 structure was obliterated when the bathtub was cleaned out.
Elias
It is on the same site (i.e., the trackways are where they have been since 1971), but everything above it had to be rebuilt.
I thought the 1909 structure was obliterated when the bathtub was cleaned out.
The 1909 station was east of the bathtub, between Greenwich and Church Streets. The mezzanine level was obliterated and the platforms were removed, but at least two of the track beds remain. After 9/11, there was talk of re-opening the Hudson Terminal station, as it initially appeared that this might be the quickest way of restoring service.
Joe Brennan's site shows a 1985 photograph of "a van driving into the former Hudson Terminal space through a section of original H & M tunnel."
Just to clarify, the tubes are visible in the EAST wall of the Bathtub.
That puts some perspective on the site.
Then where did the tunnels leave the bathtup on the west side? Right where they are now?
Thanks, Elias
YES. They then rose up to the level of Hudson Terminal. See below:
one of the images on this page!
til next time
CI (4840-4949) have GE SCM 17KC76AE1 controllers, St. Louis head, tail, merker lights, JT Nelson window hardware/sash, and Westcode door systems with Comco PA system
Both have NYAB "Newtran" braking.
All CI cars have Stone Safety A/C. 4550-4749 have Stone Safety, 4750-4840, Thermo King.
In other words, almost all original hardware.
Regards,
Jimmy
wayne
The CI R42s have R38-style handgrips by the storm door, where it angles down from the ceiling to the doorsill. The MK R42s have the R32-style handgrip by the stormdoors, where its just attached to the ceiling.
THe CI ones sound like Phase 2 R32s. They have a square-shaped keyhole near the doors for door cut-out. The MK's sound like R32 Phase 1's and as such, have circular door cut-out keyholes. At least I think that's it.
til next time
At 86, 81 and 72 all of the tracks are on the east side of CPW.
CG
Those are Gallery Cars, and I rode on them back in the 1960s when I was in bootcamp at Great Lakes.
Do they have more capacity than a single level coach? Yes. But not that much more since the lower deck is 2x2, and the upper deck is 1x1. Standing on those suckers is quite limited.
But they are (or were in the CNW colors) pretty cars.
Elias
THANK GOD they didn't!!! 3x2 seating is a total abortion.
Yeah, 3-2 would be more capacity. What about the dude in the middle seat though that has to sit between armpits for over 2 hrs?
That would be his choice to sit there, so I'd have little sympathy. On the other hand, consider the hapless occupant of the window seat, when a large person who doesn't fit plops down in the middle seat.
As for your window person, he/she could just as easily switch seats with the fella.
How would that help?
This is why 2x2 seating is just better.
They tried 3-2 in the bi-level prototype. It was called the C-1, and was widely despised. It was doing PJ runs as late as 1998 or 1999, powered by FL9ACs.
The railroad went to two levels of 2-2 rather than one of 3-2, because apparently it had its heart set on bi-levels.
Watch the Crap!
Mark
Let's say there's a crowded train comprised of M-7's in which all but the middle seats are full. More people are boarding. Assume tnat there are 20 middle seats per car (this is just a guess) and eight cars on the train.
If the middle seats somehow disappeared, 160 people would have uncomfortable rides because they'd have to stand. With the middle seats, however, 480 people will be miserable - the 160 people now sitting in the middle, and the 320 people to either side of them.
Air Compressor
Propulsion Logic & Inverters
Converter
Air Brake package
The Compressor can be installed in the cabinet that now contains the air brake package. Inverters and converter can be accomodated with the sacrafice of 4 seats - 2 at each end. And that's without thinking outside the box and redesigning those components.
Maximum outside width on the C-3's is 119" with 137-143 seats (depending upon configuration). Some other cars of note (car type, maximum width and seats):
LIRR C-1, 122", 181-190
LIRR M-1, 129", 118-122
LIRR M-7, 126", 96-108
MBTA bilevels, 120", 175-182
Metra Gallery EMU, 126", 156
Metra Gallery car, 126", 140-162
NJT bi-level (as proposed), 126", 139-146
I take it the C1s had 2x3 seating?
And then they totally blew the opportunity to do 2 x 2 on the M-7's.
And I ride a C-3 into school everyday (yes, it magically takes me into the school building :P). On the stretch between Bellerose and Jamaica, the ride is just as hellishly bumpy as it is on an M-7, but not nearly as bad as an M-1.
Hey, what do you know, that's the bill Jeb said he would need to build Jet-train! Tax credits.
Anyway, this was part of a corporate welfare...i mean senate bill called Jumpstart our business strength(JOBS) bill. Totaling $170-billion in breaks I believe.
The bill also:
"preventing companies from generating tax deductions by leasing bridges, railroads, and subways bought or built with taxpayer dollars..."
How does that effect engineering firms? It's supposed to save us $34 billion in 10 years. Or in laymens terms, only $3.4billion a year. The cost of one highway in one city.
Yeah, but that can be 1,700 miles of double-track railroad—per year.
Many thanks!
Hope this helps.
Same question with the "Q" train.
Besides, if one wants to get to the Q from the World Trade Center station, it would probably more convenient to take the R and transfer at DeKalb.
total cost: $10.30
OR NJT -> NY Penn Station ($11.55)->walk one block east to Herald Square->Q to Avenue J ($2)
total cost: $13.55
Anyway, enjoy the PHOTOS; they're the usual tragic lineup from me: some trains, street shots and steel and concrete. Have fun!
Your pal,
Fred
Boston College via. Commonwealth Av. "B"
Cleveland Circle via. Beacon St. "C"
Riverside-Lechmere "D"
Heath St. via, Huntington Av. "E"
I love to say all those names, they are almost melodic.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Your pal,
Fred
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
Bottom-Right: Half-Time Pizza -- Bast Pizza in Boston. (if not the world).
P.S.: I would like to thank the rush hour crowd that held up the train for the extra few minutes I neede to get down there. I would also like to thank the T/O who allowed the huge crowd to leave (not like he had a choice). ;-D
Enjoy!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Nice pics. I gotta ride those damn M7's. Did you ever ride one or do you just live near the station and take pics?
-Chris
The reason I won't is that as much as I'm keeping y'all posted with my M7A pix, my favorite rail system is still the NYCSS, favorite line the (4), and terminal station (when I die) Woodlawn. The only way I will ask Unca Dave for a handle change is if the (4) line's northern terminus is changed. :-P
And you know I wouldn't change my handle to something related to the (1) and (9) even though they are the closest subway lines to my apartment (oh, I forgot Piggo12 said the (9) doesn't exist!) because IDL the R62s/R62As. :-P
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Thanksfully, it appears it is about to die. You have no idea how annoying it is to wait on the platform while 9 trains run by you while it is 2 degrees out or pouring rain or 95 degrees and 99% humidity. Or being forced to get out at 231 and because the 9 will be "skipping" 238, actually stopping in the 238 station with it's doors closed and while waiting for the daily disaster that is the 242 terminal to clear.
Yep the 9 train makes much sense.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Mission Accomplished (riding the SI Ferry on the landing deck, both ways).
Upon returning uptown, and stopping over at the TMS in GCT, I ran into
the NOTORIOUS and LEGENDARY Mr. rt (of this here shindig board)...
After being shown the MNRR O Scale Trains, Mr. rt bid adieu and I
promptly entered fare control on the LEX at Grand Central.....
As I prepared to swipe my metrocard, I glanced to the
floor
and my eyes focused on a CENTENNIAL LOGO Metrocard face up right before me...
(remember now, I HAVE NOT FOUND A SINGLE Centennial MC before today)....
So I see the logo facing me, and I swoop down to pick it up, just as a crowd hurries
towards the turnstiles.... I enter, swiping my appropriate farecard...
and as I began to glossy over my newfound card... a few steps inside the turnstiles I spot what appears
to be a CITY HALL Centennial Card lying face up..... swoop & pick up... take a few steps more inside,
the 72nd Street Centennial Card is spotted in the center of the mezzanine area....
End result??
I've gathered my 3 Centennial Cards all found a mere FEW FOOTSTEPS away
from 1 another (and within 2 minutes stalling)in the LEX mezzanine of GCT.
Wao.
To think this little "game" is going to continue on thru next MARCH!??!
(o, hell fire & brimstone--- when the spanish/english cards come oot....)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Later, I too found a few of the logo version and one 72nd Street.
Only with values of $20, correct?
When was the last time you verified this?
On the reader was a STACK of Metrocards piled up. About 4 inches high. I grabbed them and stood clear of the reader to check them. Although the majority of cards were the Plain Jane and "safety cards", there were a few of the first Centennials as well as a 42nd St. card. This was on a weekend. The readers at the busy stations can sometimes be a goldmine. Right place at the right time!
Bill "Newkirk"
Wednesday was one of those times when there was almost nothing available, so I bent over and found a few Centennial cards.
The internet is also very volatile, e.g. sometimes a fairly new card is going for $20 - 30, while at other times you can pick up a set of six old blues for $30.
I still enjoy trading the most & have some out-of-town friends who I exchange cards with.
Unidentified car at Grosvenor-Strathmore
5036 at Grosvenor-Strathmore, photographed this morning
Most trains are still mixed consists of various sorts.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Chuck Greene
The CAFs still seem to have minor door issues, both in delayed openings, and the operator having to take the train forward a bit before opening, and in delayed closings with the two doors in a pair not closing simultaneously, but these are not causing overall operational problems or delays from what I've seen.
You gonna join us on June 19th for the Metro Scavenger Hunt/Contest?
Mark
-k
Mark
John
Mark
One of the things I like about Grosvenor (A11) is besides all of the angles that can be taken of the platform area from outside station are the many number of angles one can get of the south approaching tracks from along the wall at the bus drop off area.
John
What the story on the structure on the left of the right of way? Is that the new parking structure at the station.
John
It's been awhile since I have been to DC (pre-CAF days), but back then, Rohr cars, Breda 2000 series and Breda 3000 and 4000 series operated seperately.
R=Rohr
B=Breda
C=CAF
BBCCBB
CCBBCC
CCBBCC
CCCCCC
I've also seen these:
CCRRCC
CCRRRR
BBCC (yes, only 4 cars)
And pretty much every other combination that is possible. I have yet to see a train with Rohrs, Bredas, and CAFs but who knows, at this rate, it may not be far off.
Now a mixed consist of Rohrs with CAFs, which I saw on the Blue Line at Farragut West, is weird. Those aren't as noticeable sound-wise, since they both have high-pitched sounds. But visually, those are weird.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
John
At one time there was some idle talk of WMATA getting some cars off the Boston Red Line and use them for non revenue related chores.
John
http://www.tcpalm.com/tcp/living/article/0,1651,TCP_1043_2874423,00.html
There are a lot of them. Two of them interested me.
There's one midway describing the theft of a paper bag that someone was carrying.
The very last story surprised me. A group of school children went from their school in East New York to the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and the subway provided a non-stop special train for them. Was that common??
After that, I witnessed this a couple of times during the early '80s.
We can't stop you from worring! : )
If you want to worry, then go fo it.
I have ridden all of those trains, almost since they were new (Well the R-10s were born the same year I was) and it never even occured to me to worry about them. Trust the people who have been PAID to worry about the trucks to have done their jobs correctly, and get on with the stuff that *is* in your domain to worry about. (ie homework, job, family) That is quite enough.
You cannot worry about (well yes you can, but it will be a fruitless worry) the weather, about earthquakes, tornados, and shipwrecks...
but then you are in the Lord's hands, and you ought to let him worry about such things.
: ) Elias
Archbars worked OK for the arnines, primarily BECAUSE they were maintained.
Uncle BigEdIRTmanL and I have snickered over our "doings" offline, and I'm sure if RandyO spots this, he'll have a chuckle and add to this as well. You really TRIED not to, but sometimes it was unavoidable with really leaky bearings. I remember 59th Tower picking up the microphone and yelling at me over the PA that they couldn't see the other end of the platform after I stopped once. :)
Where did you loose your time, son?
I heard when the museum arnines first hit the rails in their MOD trips, one car developed a hot journal box. The cause was someone up at 207th St. put a mop head instead of the correct rags in the journal boxes. I think an old timer pointed this out and corrected the situation.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, they was WEIRD looking things - giant brillo pads made of wool, along with what LOOKED like rag, but more like canvas. Or the amazing Sargeant Bilko miracle fabric known as "burlacon" ...
But MOP HEAD? Hahahahahaha. :)
2) The R1/R9 used a trainline wire (U2 if my memory serves me correctly) to synchronize the compressors. If one ran, it switched on all the compressors on the train.
And you remember correctly - compressors WERE "come one, come all, step right up ..."
The battery charging circuit via the compressor was fairly crude
on the R1-9s: Rather than putting the negative side of the compressor
directly to ground, it would be connected to B+. This relies
on the fairly low resistance of the battery to keep the voltage
down to about 40V while charging. R1-9s also had a trickle charger
using a regulating relay and a charging resistance connected to
the 600 (same as the "lay-up charger" circuit on SMEEs).
Big problem with this circuit: If you have an open in the battery,
the B+ line goes right to 600! This tends to blow out a lot of
low-voltage stuff. The BMT and IRT cars used a ballast resistor
on the low side of the compressor and then connected the battery
to it through a relay contact to prevent discharge through the
resistor when the compressor was off.
The synchronizing wire is "S", AFAIK. Basically, all of the governors
are connected in parallel. If any one governor calls for air, the
S wire is energized by it (at 32V). The compressor 600 power is
switched on each car by an electro-pneumatic contactor that looks
very much like the governor (it's called the A-6 compressor switch).
The control for these contactors is the S wire.
The reason for this is that all of the main reservoirs are connected
via the top trainline. If the governors were local, then the
car with the lowest cut-in setting would tend to do all the work.
Thanks again for the MEAT!
8987 now RD400, was accompanied by two locomotives. Upon getting to the East, Loco 59 was separated from her two companions for a transfer move south. The transfer in question involved movment of the Jet Snow Blower aka JB1 from the Yard at the East.
59 lead the charge, with the Jet Blower following. RD400 with a second diesel proceeded afterwards behind the Jet Blower and 59. RD400 looks great.... It's strange seeing a divorced R-33ML Car in single status.
I'm going to assume that the diesels were assigned to protect the Jet Blower????
-Stef
Is she painted yellow ?
Bill "Newkirk"
There are pictures of RD400 somewhere on this site.
-Stef
Bill "Newkirk"
Also, does anyone know what the Rohrs sounded like accelerating and braking before their rehab?
And lastly, has anyone seen a logo for Rohr? True, the company doesn't exist anymore, having been acquired by (I believe) BF Goodrich. But still, has anyone seen a logo for Rohr? Their cars are surprisingly logoless.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
The Rohr's had absolutely no sound to them as far as I can remember. This may sound weird, but they just rumbled in and rumbled out rather plainly. They may have had a little whine in the motors, but that's all I think they were like. Back in the middle 80's there were problems with the brake pads wearing out quickly and those you could hear a mile a way. The screeching sound those things made jarred many a loose filling in people. The news would have reports about it and show people holding their ears when the trains slowed down in the stations.
I don't think I've ever seen a logo either. I think I've seen logos for Rohr when they were producing a prototype of the 870 model bus, later to be a Grumman, and the lettering was just "ROHR" in some sort of funky futuristic type font.
The only rehab work done in house is car interiors, and that’s only when major mechanical or propulsion systems are not rehabed. When cars are sent off the property for upgrades of mechanical and propulsion systems they also get interiors done as well. WMATA does have the in house facilities to change out wheels, axles, friction break system components and traction motors as well a lathe for truing wheels.
John
I know for a fact that the AC propulsion system was a product on General Electric. However I have no idea who the contractor was that did the work or where the work was done
Also, does anyone know what the Rohrs sounded like accelerating and braking before their rehab?
If your are familiar with the sound and feel of a DC traction cam control propulsion system then you have an idea what the Rohr cars were like. One of the most obvious things one felt was when the operator set throttle to notch 5 from a standstill the cars would lurch at the points where the controller apply higher current to the traction motors at speeds up to 20 MPH. You could feel and hear when the dynamic breaking system cut out and the friction brakes took over when decelerating
And lastly, has anyone seen a logo for Rohr? True, the company doesn't exist anymore, having been acquired by (I believe) BF Goodrich. But still, has anyone seen a logo for Rohr? Their cars are surprisingly logoless.
The Rohr built car had no builders plate or any marking on them indicating that they were built by Rohr. When I was in the Oakland, San Francisco Bay area back in the late 1980s I road bart, The Rohr built cars on bart similarly had no builders plates.
John
Download Here
Then just put it in your Tubes directory, probably located at:
C:\Program Files\Jasc Software Inc\Paint Shop Pro 7\Tubes
Differs depending on version of PSP
I have all the current lines, plus some oldies. Enjoy!
Peace,
ANDEE
--Mark
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/20766.htm
So, would it be fair to consider them 'Kosher MetroCard vending machines'? To to true to the faith, the machines should be shut down on the Sabbath...
"Ashamed you should be!!" "Walk to the Temple"
wayne
"NU??"
Robert
The move happened on Tuesday, May 11, 2004.
--Mark
Although, i dont see why i am responding to what you say as you never know what you are talking about.
Remember, they were acquired as prototype cars, to test (then) "new technology" for later use in the R142/3 generation of cars. There was never any plan to acquire more of them.
I've ridden them. You're not missing much.
--Mark
-Julian
Up here, 3.00 can't get me away and back, and they are complaining about a damn 1.35 fare with FREE transfers?! Good grief, that's transit awareness for you!
On the other hand, WMATA buses need to shape up...some of them look horrible.
Anyway, it's worth noting that SEPTA passengers (of which both Mr. Basman and I are), did not bother with a boycott. We all know that SEPTA doesn't give a flying fuck about us, and considers the passenger to be the only road block to running the perfect transit operation.
No seriously, to the best of my knowledge, there was no talk of boycotts the last time SEPTA raised fares. We all know that you get stuff done by going to the meetings as ill informed as possible and calling the board members names. That's why I am convinced the next SEPTA hearings should be Pay Per View.
John
Mark
If one adjusts for inflation the price at the pump for gasoline is still cheaper then it was during both the high price spike in the 1990s and during the Arab oil embargo in the 1972. Much like motor fuel prices WMATA fares have not risen at the same rate as inflation.
John
GIVE ME A F*&KING BREAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WMATA fares are still a bigger bargain in comparison to SEPTA/NJT/MTA fares and you people get much better service to boot! Try paying $2.00 to get on and 60 cents for a transfer, and ride a piss-smelling train with some homeless asshole occupying two seats, and the motherf&*ker hasn't bathed in a DECADE, or pray that the punkass kid isn't eying you for his next mugging victim,, or other urban ills people in Philly/NYC have to put up with on public transportation. WMATA commuting is far more civilized than SEPTA/MTA, despite the crowded trains.
I swear you people in DC are such f*%king wimps, bitching about a 1.35 fare [I know Metrorail charges by distance, but that is much lower than what's paid on SEPTA/NJT/MTA railroads, with far better service that these railroads can provide. Try paying 7 bucks on the NJT Northeast Corridor train and YOU HAVE TO STAND ALL THE WAY TO NYC. THAT'S A TRIP OF ABOUT 30 MILES!!!!!!!!, and then complain about paying 3 bucks on the Red Line, and you actually have a better than 50% chance of getting a seat on the train. In my book: NO CONTEST, WMATA wins hands down!]
Whats the problem with some poeple on this board.
Can you believe an NYC day pass is $7? I can't!
I understand yet I don't understand why people complain so much about it. WMATA gives you a good deal for your money, and you can do so much. SEPTA's too expensive and if you take the BSL regularly, it's not worth it.
I don't understand why the gov't isn't for transit anymore...transit has come so far, and they just want it to go back in the hole.
The new station is in the area of the former Southampton LIU station. I believe it is a wood platform.
I just hope LIRR keeps this station open after the open is over. Hell, keep one or 2 of those trains that stop at Mineola and Hicksville and extend their service to Montauk. That'd be really nice. Save me a hell of a lot of time(now I have to take 2 buses to Freeport, train to Babylon, then train to the hamptons, very long trip).
CG
Still, it's more expensive. I remember doing it the 1st time I made the trip out there. It's also more or less the same amount of time. If LIRR keeps atleast one morning run to Montauk via the main stopping at Mineola or Hicksville, it'd be much faster for me to take the bus to either of those 2 stops and get the train from there rather than going to woodside and back.
I may try another way this summer though:
N23 to Jericho TPKE->Shortline to Patchogue->LIRR to East Hampton or Amagansett
Commin back I could do that in reverse or:
LIRR to Babylon->Adirondack Trailways to Mineola->N23 to PW
Thats a fine picture.
Thanks, Elias
They will run trains every 12 minutes instead of every 10 (5 tph vs 6).
Journal Sq-33rd St service will operate via Hoboken at all times during the weekends.
Hoboken-WTC service will not operate on weekends.
There have been no official notices posted anywhere and there is no mnetion on the website.
I wonder if they will actually go through it (their unions are complaining already).
CG
Newark-WTC-33rd-Hoboken-Newark
...Probably during the overnight...
Newark-WTC-33rd-Hoboken-Newark
How do you propose that the trains would get from WTC to 33rd?
This has been done. During the last transit strike PATH ran special trains as an express leaving WTC going into NJ and then back to Manhattan stopping only at 33rd St (and vice versa).
But - in the case of R36's example the train would go to Hoboken first then head to 33rd St.
I am quite familiar with the track layout, having ridden it for years. I thought it was obvious that a WTC-33rd service needs to go all the way back into NJ, and indeed most of the way to Hoboken, and it is hence a ludicrous service (except in case of emergencies, e.g., if the NYC subway is inoperable).
To amplify on Allan's remarks, at Pavonia Hoboken-bound trains and 33rd St-bound trains arrive on the same track. Therefore, with appropriate switching, a train originating at WTC can equally well go either to Hoboken or 33rd.
Similarly at Pavonia, JSQ/Newark-bound trains and WTC trains are on the same track. There are only 2 tracks at Pavonia.
The WTC-33rd St section would just be like the WTC-HOB section, except that, instead of going to Hoboken, they go to 33rd St.
You don't ride PATH much do you?
This morning I drove through there again, and there were Metro North workers and MTA police instead of local cops. It appeared that one of the crossing poles was out of the ground.
Does anyone know what happened ? Did someone drive into the rail crossing equipment ? Was there a train-car collision ? Any ideas ?
-Josh
Roaring Brook Road I can understand but "Readers Digest Road ?? Is it something like Times Square ?
It's the road which provides access to the Reader's Digest headquarters from the Saw Mill Parkway. It's not very long but has a Metro-North grade crossing.
A car struck the crossing gate and was subsequently struck by a train.Fortunately no one seems to have been hurt and no real damage done to the MN train. Car is probably not so lucky.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Broadway Lion thinks that *ALL* trains of any consequence either run on Broadway, or at least have at least one stop on Broadway!
Indeed, I can only name *two* trains which do not have at least one stop on Broadway, and only seven trains that do not have at least part of their run on "Broadway".
: ) Elias (The Broadway Lion!)
The following lines have stops along a street named Broadway.
1, 2, 3, 9 (all stops notrth of Times Square)
4, 5 (Fulton St, Wall St, and Bowling Green)
E, G, R, V (Steinway Street through Grand Avenue)
J, M, Z (All stops from Eastern Parkway to the Williamsburg Bridge)
N, Q, R, W (Times Square to City Hall)
The following lines have at least one stop with "Broadway" (abbreviated "B.") in its name:
7 (74th Street-B.)
A, C (B.-Nassau St, B.-East New York)
B, D, V (B.-Lafayette St)
F (B.-Lafayette Street, East B.)
G (B.)
L (B. Junction)
N, W (B.)
The only lines that have neither are the 6, and all shuttles.
2. 6, 7, A, B, C, D, L, all S Shuttles except 42nd St.
2: G "weekday trains only", 5 and R shuttles
1 and 2 (both questions) SIR and PATH
The last time *I* looked, Columbus Circle, Times Square, Herald Square, and Union Square were *all* **Intersections** with BROADWAY!
So..... according to the Broadway Lion trains stopping at those stations would all have stops at Broadway.
: )
The second part of the question was the seven (or more) lines that DO NOT RUN UNDERNEATH BROADWAY, but can make a stop there. These would be the lines mentioned, they cross Broadway but do not run underneath (or above ground).
Nah... The (6) stops at 14th Street / Union Square.
Union Square is by definition an intersection with Broadway.
There is an exit from that station complex onto Broadway.
So according to the Broadway Lion, only the Franklyn and the Rockaway Shutles do not touch a Broadway exit of some sort.
: )
There's Broadway again!
Yawn... Last time I looked, it had a Terminal at Herald Square: if you exit to the street you would be on BROADWAY!
: )
Actually, there *is* a Broadway that crosses the Staten Island Lion : )
but it is on the North Branch and so has no trains there : (
Yet : )
But if they ever do put a train there, there WILL be a Broadway Stop! : )
Elias
I have a collection (a Large collection) of stuffed cats, FELIDS, if you will, mostly tigers, but after having read the Narnia Chronicals by C.S. Lewis, I decided that I had to have a Lion, and mom gave me one for my birthday many years ago. Naturally, I call him "Aslan."
Since then, when ever the drug store gets some new Beanie Babies in, I'll buy any of the felids that they might have.
I put that particular felid, named Orion, out on the grass to take its picture, and then used PhotoShop to cut him out and paste him on Harry Beck's photo, (Thank You, Harry) reshaped, of course, for the project at hand. The lettering is of course, also via PhotoShop.
Here is another picture taken at the same time: Orion with Callista.
Elias
I know you've made other banner-style images. Do you plan to do the 'Flushing Lion' anytime soon? :)
-Broadway Buffer
BOSTON, USA: Red Line
LONDON, UK: Central (Ealing), Circle (St James's Pk), District (both of the previous + Hammersmith), Hammersmith & City (Hammersmith), Metropolitan (Northwood Hills), Northern (Tooting), Piccadilly (Hammersmith).
TORONTO, CDN: almost... Broadway is 2 blocks North of Eglinton
VANCOUVER, CDN: both lines share a Broadway station
-Todd
--Mark
Red Line to Park
Green Line to Lechmere (so he could see the el that's going away)
Green Line Lechmere to North Station
Tour of North Station commuter rail terminal
Orange Line North Station to Haymarket
Green Line Haymarket to Government Center
Blue Line Government Center to Bowdoin (to see the loop)
Blue Line Bowdoin to Airport, where I got off to return.
I told him to DEFINITELY do the PCC trolley on the Mattapan-Ashmont extensio of the Red Line, and as much street running of the Green Line as possible.
He's lovin' it!
In the past, I've ridden it with a friend who works for the T.
I never understood why they didn't want passengers riding the loop. Is it something with the proximity to the walls in relation to the third rail?
Jarid... you got to cut that out. You could get the motorman time off with no pay... and possible even fired, if the wrong person is arouns.
Todd.... too bad we didn't hook up, I was there today!
Thanks again, it was a real pleasure meeting you.
Your pal,
Fred
With the station rarely open as it is, I wouldn't have much of a chance to ride it anyway. That and the little known fact that I currently reside in New York City, where the City Hall loop has proven to be a solid replacement.
See you on the IRT this summer!
The public usually will be shown a drawing.
NTCT has a very bad habit of intentionally not listing the G.O.'s to the public as they should. This weekend the 5 is supposed to run normal to Bowling Green (that's what YOU think), when the 4,5,6 all are running local in Manhattan from 125th to Brooklyn Bridge and Fulton, Wall and Bowling Green stations are closed (that's what NYCT does, although the 4 line poster does say the 5 is terminating at Bowling Green).
Second point: On the Broadway line, the 49, 57, 5th Ave, and Lexington Ave stations are closed this weekend. What about the Q? Is the Q running to 57/7, a closed station? Or is the Q terminating along with the N at 42nd/TS? There is nothing anywhere that states the Q will be affected by the weekend N/R lines G.O.
This does not include the common G.O.'s that NYCT also misleads to the general public, like the rerouted E trains via. F line to West 4th St (that's what YOU think), when the E actually continues on the F to 2nd Ave (that's what NYCT does).
About 20% of customer advisories are complete miscommunication. So how about that G.O. when the D ran express from East 149th st/GC to East 180th st as per that weekend S.C. poster awhile back? Was that a G.O. from RTO too?
Adding some local stops might add 2 or 3 minutes to a persons trip, but they are otherwise no different than normal. Since you can lose 2 or 3 minutes just by missing a train or having someone hold the doors -- why bother to post signs about it.
CG
A few weeks ago the E was running local all the way from Jamaica to Manhattan without any notice at all. That can add ten minutes to the trip. That day, I had a choice of taking the LIRR to Penn Station or the E. If I had known about the E running local, I might have chosen the LIRR instead. That bothered me enough to send a complaint to the MTA.
Da Hui
All I'm saying is that I'm entitled to know ahead of time so that I can make appropriate plans. I know they have to do weekend work to keep the subway from falling apart but unless it's an unexpected emergency repair it should be on the weekend summary on the web site. Otherwise, why have the summary posted at all? If it's local, it's local, but then I need to leave earlier or perhaps take the railroad instead.
I once made the assumption that southbound 2/3 trains were running local from 96 to 72, because I happened to know that there was a GO in effect calling for southbound 2/3 trains to run local from 96 to 72. (All northbound 1/2/3 trains were running express that weekend.) The 2 train I happened to be riding (on the local track) violated that assumption, so I had to go back up to 96 and try again.
Then there was the time I made the assumption that northbound D trains were running local, because the signs plastered all over the place stated that the C was running express and the D local. The D train I happened to be riding (also on the local track) violated that assumption.
As in case this weekend,I saw Manhattan F's run entirely local in Queens while I saw a E going express after Roosevelt plus the F I was on went local from 21St-Roosevelt then express to 71Av.Now seeing as they are FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRR from finishing the work,you can expect more of the same for a long time to come.And again,if you don't like it,there's these little yellow painted vechicles that are so commonly known as Taxi's.Use em.
Da Hui
How long did it take for that 1 train to arrive at 96St after the 3 train left?Answer:5mins.Now while this was late at night,still you ask yourself,is 5mins really worth it?What can you do in 5mins?Not much really.People really gotta stop creaming in thier pants over 5mins time savings.Technically the way things are these days is that they go onto the express from a local with the mindset that they'll save anywhere in the range of 10-20mins no matter how short a distance they travel.Not 5mins,but 10-20mins.
Also like to point out that there have been NUMEROUS times in which my 1 train has met with a 2 or 3 at 96St,the 2 or 3 leaves the 1 after 86 and by the time it gets to Times Sq,the same train is sitting there and the people who switched before that wanted to get off south of Times Sq. become the foolish morons.
Best course of action:JUST LYFAO!
Da Hui
His complaint is not stupid and you should stop attacking people for making perfectly reasonable suggestions to the MTA.
Examples:
(4)
Manhattan-bound trains run express from
Bedford Pk Blvd to 149 St
Weekend, 12:01 AM Sat to 5 AM Mon, May 8 - 10
Current format: "Trains run Express..."
"Trains skip" format: Trains skip Kingsbridge Rd, Fordham Rd, 183 St, 176 St, Mt. Eden Av, 170, 167, and 161 Sts
(7)
Flushing-bound trains skip 69, 74, 82, 90, 103, and 111 Sts
Weekend, 12:01 AM Sat to 5 AM Mon, May 15 – 17
Current format: "Trains Skip..."
"Trains run Express" format: Trains run express between Woodside-61 St and Main St
(N) [via Bridge]
Brooklyn-bound trains rerouted over the Manhattan Bridge
from Canal St to DeKalb Av
Weekend, 12:01 AM Sat to 5 AM Mon, May 8 – 10
Current format: "Trains rerouted..."
"Trains run Express" format: Trains run express between Canal St and DeKalb Avenue
"Trains skip" format: Trains skip City Hall, Rector St, Whitehall St, Court St, and Lawrence St
Then again this is the TA and there is probably no reason at all.
However nobody complain about inaccurate signs? I see this a lot.
No trains to Far Rockaway at this station. 12:01 Sat to 5:00 Mon
Posted in this example at 59 St. The last regular train must pass south of Broad Channel before 12:00, which means that least Far Rockaway will leave 59 St before 11pm. However according to the signs there should be Far Rockaway A train stoppings stopped at 59 St (and even futher uptown) until 12:01am.
E: No trains at this station. 12:01 Sat to 5:00 Mon
Seen at the uptown platform at West 4th St.
Aha! This one's even worse. The first E you would think gets there someone around 5:00 (give or take a few minutes). I got caught up with this one a while back on my way to work, was heading to Queens. Arrived at West 4th around 4:445, decided to wait for the E. The first train out of World Trade center at the time was the first train to come southbound. So in actuality the first train didn't leave WTC until around 5:20.
I could go on, but you get the point. There are greater errors in these signs than not being told a train is running local.
I think NYCT expects that by the time the current 50 tph from QB to Manhattan are no longer sufficient, they will have improved technology that allows more tph, delaying the problem for another 40 years.
On Sunday, I boarded a D train at Union St. (!) and found myself taking the Sea Beach out to Stilwell Ave., but only outbound service was running over it, the inbound line was significantly torn up with trackwork in progress.
-k
-Broadway Buffer
David
David
Sacramento RT 2.8 mile ligth rail extension to Sunrise is schedule to open on June 11, 2004. This new extension from the current terminus Mather Field Station will have three new stations(Zinfandel,Cordova Town, and Sunrise). Right now, RT is currently testing thier trains
on this new extension.
That is all I know!
Some of what they have can be seen at www.richmondgalleries.com
The auction is Tuesday, May 25 at 10:00am at 947 Castleton Ave, Staten Island
D to Brighton Beach!!
This should work.
This time it works - I just checked it. Original message left out the "http://" - my bad.
Sorry.
This is what you get when your congressman is Speaker of the House (I refer to the late T.P. "Tip" O'Neill).
The section to be torn down is only about three blocks long. For el-lovers, the el will remain from just north of North Station, to Science Park, across the Charles River, and on to Lechmere.
Trust me, as a daily rider to/from North Station, this is a Good Thing.
Not that my experience with GNER was any better. Plus, since I was trying to book around Christmas, there was a maze of options most of which I had to try to book before finding out there was no space.
Makes Amtrak’s online booking a breeze!
Does anyone know what stop these half a million dollar mansions are going to be built?
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20040513/ts_usatoday/njsmartgrowthplanflourishes
Since there are people willing to buy those houses, those houses are clearly affordable to someone.
Does anyone know what stop these half a million dollar mansions are going to be built?
I don't know if these houses are mansions or not, but $500,000 price tag != mansion.
Mike
Basically beautiful Victorian-style houses or other attractive buildings are torn down in favor of cookie-cutter brick masses that are boring and usually suck more resources than necessary because they involve several living areas within one lot.
I'm curious being I see tons of tract housing(ungodly amts really), and the only real mansions there are, surely aren't cookie cutter or subdivison regulated at all.
I'm guessing the term originates from how big the house looks compared to a rowhome next door making the proportions realitive. I guess.
What is really strange is that average house size has increased as average family size has decreased. A family with five or six children might well need a large house, but families like that are uncommon in this "beanpole generation" era.
Went to a flea market earlier and bagged a QWAPPY "web cam quality" digital camera and took a few shots. Owing to the pictures being hosted on my personal page on the company site, these pictures can disappear soon ... but for now, a virtual tour of Unca Selkoik land ... pictures are small enough and irresolute enough for dialup viewers, let 'em load ...
Our DUMP ...
Our private 1/3 mile road (we plow, we pave) ...
Our forest (largest lay of lawn to it in this direction, all trees OURS) ...
View out my office window ...
Our substation (enough power to run plenty of arnines) ...
Our handy railroad tracks (past the trees, also good for arnines) ...
Such is life upstate ... the McMansions aren't far away, but we're thankful that we could buy a decent amount of land years ago to ensure that there's SOMEPLACE where they won't be built. Our house is mostly underground, what pooks out in the first picture is only the upper part of it, where our living quarters are. Software company is downstairs and the whole thing's built into the side of a hill. And we're letting seedling trees grow in to reduce the amount of lawn I have to run the tractor over.
So while everyone else is clear-cutting and putting up row houses out in the pastures, bear in mind that there are STILL a few of us going the other way. :)
I don't know why the topic was moved to another site considering some of the other threads posted that have little or no relevance to rail.
>>>>>It's all about farmland being sold. You should SEE the SUV houses out where I am. I guess there's something wrong with me, I have a nice pasture (7 acres worth) and for ME, it's all about land and forest preservation. Different mentality upstate - I could have subdivided by about 4 here, but REFUSE ...<<<<<<
I understand that very close access to a rail line raises real estate prices (Forrest Hills) but the initial price of 500K is unrealistic. In about 10 years, those same homes may cost 750K! The article states New Jersey needs more home construction, but the seems to go against the idea of what "Smart Growth" is all about. One of the arguments the anti-rail establishment makes against further rail developement is the fact that "Smart Growth" raises home prices making home ownership unaffordable. They may have a point.
I've seen more activity in the CAPITOL. :)
Here in New Jersey, where we have real pseudo-elections (not all the candidates run unopposed), they’re trying to decide whether to outlaw the common practice of “pay to play” as it’s called here. Of course, nothing is going to happen until after the election!
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=248382&category=CAPITOL&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=5/15/2004 (Sex scandal at capitol)
a) Those who didn’t get their intern are jealous.
and/or
b) Now the cat’s out of the bag, suddenly everyone is self-righteous.
Gotta love the “hard-working” quote though. Not quite hard working enough to produce a budget. I say that they adopt rules that mean that legislators’s salaries (anyone elected) can only be paid out of a regular budget and not out of emergency appropriations. Then see how many late budgets NY State has!
But if you don't want to, then MIND YOUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS!
I decided to post my off topic responses in a different place. It was you and Blair who decided to make an issue out of it.
Show us you are the greater man…
Nevertheless, to take your advice and to take a higher road than pusbrain, I will stop blocking responses as of now.
There ISN'T an "off topic board" here, and I doubt you have the administrative privileges to do so. I *love* this place and the vast majority of folks who frequent this delightful place. I can understand though that life must be pretty boring now that all the rustbirds have been sunk, but there's more to life I can assure you. Seriously though, as far as "minding one's business" have a look at this subthread title, won't you? Why are you assuming that the problem is EVERYBODY ELSE? :-\
Look ... I've enjoyed your posts here for many years, even when you decided to go after people over infinitessimally small errors. But the recent tack of behavior really has me wondering.
I'll be HAPPY to be banished from this place if that's what folks want. I come here to enjoy the company of friends and good cheer. If I'm somehow harming that, then I should go find someone else to play and perhaps so should you.
Shall we have a vote?
I can start a forum whenever I want, and you are welcome to use it, or not. If you don't like it, ignore it. Yes, there is in fact no off topic board HERE, and I do not intend to call my off topic board, the OFFICIAL SubTalk off topic board. Dave has expressed a disinterest in starting an official OT board.
even when you decided to go after people over infinitessimally small errors.
While that was true in the past, I have not gone out correcting minor errors in a while. But I will correct people when they are in fact wrong, and I welcome the same when I am wrong.
I'll be HAPPY to be banished from this place if that's what folks want.
I don't want that. The vast majority of your posts are timely and relevant. The community benefits from your presence here.
Just wanted to extend a THANKS for the kind words and moral support, and to apologize personally. Truce?
Yes, truce! I also am sorry, it just is hypocritical that I would go straight from posting off topic to advocating against it.
I'm glad it looks like everyone has made up now , so let's get back to the old normal subtalk . This got so strange , it reminded me of the owners of some bar that no one goes too standing out front trying to drag people in by trying to showing them how much fun the place was . When someone has to say "These forums Rock!" in a post to try and show people how "fun" it is , it's not working .
You can't force fun or conversation .
Again , it's like starting a conversation at one bar , going outside for a smoke , and then having the owners of the bar next door trying to drag you inside and try to pick up the conversation next door . The moment is lost after that .
Heh, they do that in Tijuana. Although there you can't even go by a bar or store without people trying to pull you inside!
(Mandatory transit: In Tokyo, they actually push you into the train at some of the busier stations).
You and Mike having a short convo..."off-topic" may I add
Very hypocritical...
There you are again...
Do I really need to go back further and dig up more?
Where do you think we got the idea?
Very hypocritical...
How? I was encouraging on topic conversations to prevail against off topic ones.
There you are again...
Like there was only one off topic response I've made. And I'll continue to make them, just elsewhere.
I have all the encouragement I need from YOU
Because I didn't respond to those threads.
I suggest you also respond to off topic threads on another site.
You've got sewers? 2 acre zoning is a bit close for comfort if everyone needs to do their own spetic tank.
Transit connection: lack of sewers often forces the sprawl; you can't build dense enough to even support a bus line.
But yeah, definitely drop me an email and give me 48 hours worth of notice so I can swing around to being awake in "normal daytime" and come on out. :)
I doubt these are cookie cutter subdivions. Those pre-fabs are going for 265K in Jersey City. If you pay 500K for a pre-fab, you're getting ripped off!
500K is fairly cheap given new construction in proxymity to NYC, with good transportation. The land is far too valuable to build cheap housing. Nobody is going to build decent middle class housing as a rental property, and not know that they will be able to earn their money back. Nobody who can aford to live there wants to live in a shack.
Sorry, that is the way life is. If you want *afordable* housing, you can buy a nice house and land out here for under 50K, and many houses for as little as 12K (some improvements required). Public Transportation is NOT included, the nearest town with a decent grocery store is a 25 mile drive ($15.00 round trip).
Your Choice.
It is very difficult to build new housing in this part of North Dakota... Mortgages are a problem, you see the finished house in NEVER worth what it cost to build it.
A decent house costs from 100K to 200K regardless of location to build, yet they can never be resold out here for anything appraching that price. Yes, you can get a mortgage, but you will be left holding it if you have to sell.
My parents say the same thing is true in Pennsylvaina, in the Poconos, nice tract houses are sold for a nice price (perhaps 250K or so) but if the owner has to sell, they find that the property is only worth 125K or so. Many have sued the builders for fraud, but that is not really true (regardless of what a jury may decide). That is the nature of the housing market in many places.
Elias
The New York Times had a recent series about that, it's quite true. Many city residents have bought houses in the Poconos because prices are still fairly reasonable. They soon discover, however, that taxes and heating costs are high, and most of all that commuting into the city is murderous with no rail transit available.
It probably would be no more expensive when commuting costs are included. The problem, however, is that many of the people buying houses in the Poconos lack the income needed to qualify for mortgages on more-expensive houses in Dutchess or Suffolk. The fact that total costs inclusive of commuting might be the same is irrelevant, as mortgage lenders don't take commuting costs into account.
I was listening to a man the other day in conversation with another and he just purchased a new home in the Poconos with five bed rooms, and two bathrooms. It was a beautiful home from his description but when he said his commute from the Poconos to Newark New Jersey would take an hour and half drive, I just turned my face and smiled.
That trip would take an hour and half by Accela Express but were're talking rush hour on the Parkway!
He wouldn't be using the Garden State Parkway, most likely it would be I-80 to I-280. An hour and half is possible so long as his house isn't too deep into Pennsylvania (don't forget, the Poconos are a big area geographically), and his work hours are such that he isn't hitting the worst parts of rush hour.
Not that three hours of driving each day is anything pleasant.
Decent rail service between NYC and the area (the Lakawanna cut project) could make all the difference.
The development is not near Manhattan. According to the article, we're talking Washington Township which is not a ten minute ride.
I look at it this way. You'll need 20% percent down which is about $100,000 dollars to avoid paying PMI. Then you're left with a $400,000.00 dollar mortgage which I estimate (correct me if I'm wrong) you'll pay about $3,500.00 dollars per month. In other words, you'll need to make over 120K in income to live in this half million dollar home in Washington Township. Do you consider this cheap???
At 6% interest, a $400K mortgage would be $2,400 / month. At that amount, it's non-conforming, so the rate might be a bit higher. But add in NJ's famously high real estate taxes (typically $8,000 - $10,000 on a home like this) with insurance and you could easily approach $3,500 /month on a home.
I wouldn't consider it a cheap home, but it's not expensive either. It's pretty average for new construction in NJ. And for a place that's commutable by train to NYC (transit content), $120,000 household income is middle class. It's certainly not wealthy.
http://www.imagestation.com/member/index.html?name=R40_Railfan&c=201
I have forgotten how to link a site since all I do is embed my photos anyway, so have fun cuttin and Pastin'
This Is What I Live For...
Check out the first 6 photos on this page.
Among the whines-that-make-no-sense are complaints about trash trains using the tunnel (something that the study indicates will not happen) and idle brain-dead comments about "who wants to live near trains that run past every fifteen minutes (meanwhile this is the city that has PATH and HBLRT). Judge for yourself . . . and tell the people in JC that their next political candidates ought not be the ones that do you personal favors all the time.
I get a feeling these ports will lose major intermodel bucks if that tunnel is built which is why they are complaining.
After 8 years of no increases, many people were willing to take a fairly modest hike. WMATA gives us a hike that is essentially next to nothing, and now, a year later, says "Oops, we need more money." People don't want to pay all of a sudden. Am I complaining about the fare hike? No. I think WMATA could have forseen it and prepared a bit better for this year but I can accept what is going on. Now, if they try it again next year, then there might be a problem...
It's tricky to work that out sometimes, as MTA well knows.
Actually the three jurisdictions that WMATA serves use three different formulas to determine what is the proper amount of money to pay to WMATA for the operating subsidy based on what is taken in from the fare box. DC uses a lower fare box return then does Virginia, Maryland falls somewhere in between. If the moneys needed for the subsidy fall above the what’s in the formula WMATA is obligated to figure out a way to bring the numbers back in to line and return any moneys needed to cover any deficits.
John
I'd find it strange that you would want to label everyone for statements of a protestors in a newspaper article.
I recall that when PATCO raised fares in two consecutive years after a long time without an increase, subtalker Jersey Wuss Mike filled the forum with whiney complaints.
Bob
L'Enfant Plaza Station
Location: 7th & D Streets SW, Washington, DC
Opening: 7/1/77, 4/30/83
Routes: Blue/Orange, Green/Yellow. Connects to L'Enfant Station of Virginia Railway Express (VRE)
Alignment: Underground Cut and Cover
Ceiling: Coffered Waffle Arch, crossvaulted near south end
Platform: Island (Blue/Orange)/Side (Green/Yellow)
Additional features: Yet another one featuring the "Next Train Destination" sign, this time at a slightly odd angle on the upper level, at the south end of the southbound platform. Green indicates Branch Avenue, Yellow signifies Huntington. The lines diverge immediately south of the station. On the upper level, one can take in the sight of the imposing crossvault where the F Route Green/Yellow Line tracks cross the D route Blue/Orange Line tracks. Not as centered as at Metro Center, and is thus less imposing. However, the large amount of transfers made here makes for yet another stop not for the faint at heart or slow of foot. You WILL get trampled, and for good reason. This is the ONLY station in Metro to bear upon its pylons, four of the five colors of the system, and as such, many transfers are made between the shared corridors. About the only corridor-to-corridor transfer not made is Yellow to a westbound Blue, and that is because it's faster getting to Blue IN Virginia, and for I Street Corridor, it's whatever comes first...
Unique thing about this stop: The upper level was left closed for almost a full four years, with the lower level already in service. The pod of the upper level entirely covers the lower level's platform, obscuring the arch if you're on a Blue or Orange Line train... but the vault is a high one, probably the same height as at Metro Center. The upper level's pod leads to the north exit; this was the sole use of the level until the Yellow Line trains began running. Before that, L'Enfant Plaza was about as much of a transfer point as Federal Center SW. Another exit leads direcly into the shopping concourse, and still more drop you on D Street and at 7th & Maryland Avenue SW... one of them has been recently rehabilitated, and now has a wonderful new canopy over the escalators. There are no crossover switches on the lower level, the nearest one is east of Federal Center SW. The upper level has a double crossover north of the platform's end. This was used for switching the Yellow Line trains from track to track until U Street-Cardozo opened. As previously mentioned, Gallery Place turnbacks had to wrong-rail to and from this point. South of the station, the Green Line continues south to M Street SW before heading east. The Yellow Line heads almost immediately southwest under the Washington Channel and then alongside the Amtrak/VRE bridge and the 14th Street Bridge over the Potomac River on the Charles R. Fenwick Memorial Bridge; its most scenic point along the route. The lines diverge at a grade separated junction, but the station magaes to not require any difference in grade itself. The lower level is another dim spot in the Metro, with lights in the base of the arch, but having a low ceiling to shine upon. Because the platform is an island with a pod over it, the lights don't hit the ceiling so well, and the stop ends up looking pretty dark. Somehow, it manages to be less foreboding than Mt Vernon Sq-UDC or Foggy Bottom-GWU.
****1/2 for L'Enfant Plaza.
It should also be noted that due to the angle of the destination sign, you actually get a better view of it from the Greenbelt platform, rather than the Branch Avenue/Huntington platform.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
L'Enfant Plaza Station
Location: 7th & D Streets SW, Washington, DC
Opening: 7/1/77, 4/30/83
Routes: Blue/Orange, Green/Yellow. Connects to L'Enfant Station of Virginia Railway Express (VRE)
Alignment: Underground Cut and Cover Station and support ancillary areas were built using cut and cover construction. Tunnels beyond the west ancillary area on the D route Blue Orange lines are shield bored tunnels with a 5 piece cast iron lining with an inside diameter of 16’ 6" (5.0292m). Tunnels beyond the east ancillary area on the D route Blue Orange lines are shield bored tunnels with cast in place concrete lining with an inside diameter of 16’ 8" (5.08m). Both of these tunnels have fan shafts with emergency exit stairs in them
Tunnels beyond the north ancillary area and interlocking on F Route Green Yellow Line are shield bored tunnels with cast in place concrete lining with an inside diameter of 16’ 8" (5.08m). Tunnels beyond the south ancillary area and F and L junction interlocking on both F Route Green Line and L Route Yellow line are shield bored tunnels with cast in place concrete lining with an inside diameter of 16’ 8" (5.08m). The tunnels under the Washington channel are sunken tube tunnels similar to 63th Street tunnels on the NYCTA or the transbay tunnels on bart. The remainder of the tunnels south and east to the portal north of the Potomac River crossing are twin box cut and cover tunnels with track centers of 14’ (4.2672). Both sets of tunnels have fan shafts with emergency exit stairs in them
The northbound L Route Yellow line track L2 tunnels ducks under both tunnels of the F Route Green line that connect the upper level of L'Enfant Plaza (F03) to Waterfront (F04).
Ceiling: Coffered Waffle Arch, crossvaulted near south end
Platform: Island (Blue/Orange)/Side (Green/Yellow) Standard 22 coffer arch vault design. Unlike Metro Center (A01, C01) and Gallery Place (B01, F01) L'Enfant Plaza (D03, F03) use two different train hall dimensions. The lower level uses the dimensions of a standard Island platform station 600' 0" (182.89m) by 26' 4 1/2" (8.03m) On the other hand the upper level is wider with platforms that are 600' 0" (182.89m) by 21' 0" (6.4m) making it wider then the upper level of Metro Center (A01). Being that width of the train hall is wider then a standard station in subway with 22 coffers the L'Enfant Plaza upper level vault has 26 coffers. This is why the point where the two train hall cross are not symmetrical like the train hall crossing point in Metro Center.
Additional features: The north entrance passageway opposite of the existing surface entrance north of the surface elevator has provisions for the construction of a second surface entrance. The north mezzanine on the F Route Green Yellow line is a high volume. Unlike the mezzanine in standard twin platform stations in subway that have 4 mezzanine to platform escalators this mezzanine has 6 mezzanine to platform escalators. The only purpose of the south mezzanine is to allow transfers between southern Green line trains and Virginia Yellow Lines trains.
Unlike like Gallery Place, L'Enfant Plaza was constructed as a single project even though the upper level lines through the station would opened many years later. All of the mezzanine to platform escalators have glass balustrade in them. You might say big deal as most of the older station have glass balustrades in their the mezzanine to platform escalators. This difference is the glass balustrades in the escalators at L'Enfant Plaza have no metal supports in them like the similar escalators in Metro Center and Gallery Place. I will also note that Waterfront (F04) was built around the same time L'Enfant Plaza was built giving it the distinction of being the only station that was nearly complete but sat unused for a number of years before it was opened.
The center of the lower level train hall is 6,296’ (1919.02m) from the zero chaining point in Metro Center. The center of the upper level train hall is 4,826’ (1470.96m) from the zero chaining point in Gallery Place.
The air conditioning cooling tower and chiller are on top of the GSA building on the northwest corner of 7th and D Streets SW. This same cooling tower and chiller are used for the air conditioning in Smithsonian (D02), Federal Center SW (D04) and Archives (F02).
John
Sounds like a Yerkes tube (but larger) - I've seen that in a few other places in the WMATA system (the curved section north of Metro Center on Blue/Orange comes to mind); can't quite remember them all.
wayne
There are only three tunnel segment with the 5 piece cast iron linings on WMATA. The one you mention above which I mentioned in the Metro Center post, the ones west of L'Enfant Plaza and the tunnels between Federal Center SW (D04) and Capitol South (D05). The remainder of the shield bored tunnels have cast in place concrete linings with the exception of the tunnels under the Anacostia River between Navy Yard (F05) and Anacostia (F06), these tunnels have 5 piece precast concrete tunnel linings.
John
Mark
If you AWTP/DWTP, please say so. Also, if you can, say whether I should tell the MTA (well, NYC anyway because that's the only transit system I'm familiar with that can send feedback to) via their feedback form. TIA.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
To all SubTalkers:
Do not respond to this thread, or even this message. Let it sink to the bottom and forget about it. Oh well. But thanks for telling me John.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
If he says Redbirds- Take him to Creedmoor.
Where he or she will be in good company, since heypaul is already a resident from what I understand...
Now that's funny
Yes, I sort of ran a post like this a while back.
Use of SSNs is problematic because of identity theft,
but if it is an offical place (NJT for example) they have access to proper ID and NCIC checks, but are probly not interested in the effort, even at a steep enough fee that it pays for itself.
I proposed that some rail group such as ERA issue them upon recording appropriate ID such as a Driver's License. The process would include a manual or classes on what can and cannot be done. Lists could be vetted by NYPD prior to issuance, and submited to participating agencies as a done deal, they just gotta stash them in a file cabinet.
If someone else is willing to do the grunt work on this project, then it is dooable. But for NYCT it *is* a step backwards, since everybody already has permission to make hobby photographs, all that needs to be done is to educate the PD and the TA staffs.
Maybe ERA (or somebody) could make training materials available to these departments for distribution, perhaps with their paychecks one week, or however else a standing order might be promulgated.
Elias
1. what about somebody like Tim McVeigh? He had a social security number, etc - domestic terrorists wouldn't be included.
2. okay, so maybe McVeigh is a member of an "extremist" group. But does PETA count as an "extremist" group? Greenpeace? A former financial contributor to the IRA? Students for a Democratic Society? Should we really put people under the microscope like this, and who the hell gets to decide who's an "extremist" and who's not?
3. It creates another potential source of liability for the government. If somebody goes and gets a permit, takes a couple of pictures, then blows up a train, there will be a whole gaggle of lawyers looking to siphon from the deepest pockets - "hey, this guy gave a contribution to Greenpeace back in 1992, so they should have known he was an eco-terrorist, yet they still issued him a railfan permit! Sue sue sue!"
4. It shifts the burden of proof more from law enforcement, in trying to prove probable cause (the way it should be, under the 4th Amendment) toward the photographer. After all, once this permit system is set up, anyone caught doing photography without a permit must be up to no good, right? No need for probable cause - haul his keister off to Guantanamo.
5. Once a permit system is set up for one innocuous activity (railfanning), the precedent is set up to create permits for even more innocuous activities - permits to go to the library and read books (which could contain information on bombmaking, duh), permits to simply ride the subway, permits to buy fertilizer, laundry bleach, pool chlorine, or gasoline (which can be used to make bombs), etc.
5. It also enforces the very disturbing (for me, at least) that our right to live as we choose comes from and is granted by the Government, not by some Higher Authority (whatever that may be - I'm an atheist...) - in other words, everything is illegal unless Uncle Sam tells us it's ok to do so (and not vice versa - everything is allowed unless there is a compelling societal interest for regulation, in which case Uncle Sam steps in), and we can't do anything unless Dubya tells us we can. Isn't that exactly the kind of totalitarianism we're fighting against in Afghanistan and Iraq, and in the former Soviet Union?
Bottom line: You shouldn't need a permit, or special identification, or to put up with harassment from anyone to participate in an innocuous activity such as railfanning. The only exceptions to these rules are those things that induce negative externalities on others (driving like a maniac, stealing, killing, rape, dispensing medications to unsuspecting customers using a fake medical license, etc.) Trying to be "accomodating" and accept a proposal for railfan IDs or the like (in the name of national security, political correctness, "for the children," or whatever the cause celebre du jour may be) only sets up a precedent for Big Brother to create even more restrictions in the future. Freedoms, once ceded to the authorities, are rarely regained, and this is why we have to be so vigilant in protecting even the most trivial ones, like your freedom to go take pictures of musty old subway tunnels, graffitied old trains ready for the coral reef, or the freedom to be able to get onto an airplane with a pair of cuticle scissors, and not be harassed by authorities, deprived of your property or detained without probable cause and due process of law.
Then again, I might just be crazy.
Well, what if the person in possession of the ID card is apart of a terrorist organization (i.e., Alqueda) and also has a social security card?
And, can you prove who is a terrorist just by looking at someone's ID card? If so, then I'd like to learn this method.
Then when all of the social security records of railfans are checked and proven positive, all railfans go to the main station in the Metropolitan area of their state/city (so it would be GCT for the NYCT). Then when everyone receives their IDs, next time they are questioned by police, they (the railfans) can show their IDs to prove that they are not terrorists.
There are people who would disapprove of having to carry an ID card just to prove that they aren't terrorist. There are railfans who even disapprove of having to diverge of ANY information with the police (regardless of the legality of it).
Your plan is kindhearted and thoughtful, but it is severely flawed.
1. Define terrorist. Does a terrorist have to be in any old liberal group who disapproves of certain government activities? If so then anyone who is in any group can be considered a terrorist (for example, Green peace, Peta, ect).
2. As JPC said, this shifts more liability towards the government if something does happen, and the perpetrator is found with a "Railfans card," Plus, what if someone doesn't have a "Railfans card" and is confronted by a cop? Then would that mean he/she is a terrorist and should be hauled off to an Iraqi prison?
3. This sets the precedence that every activity is monitored and controlled by the government. That, we have to go to some special headquarters to get permission to partake in a hobby. This can also be considered as a major violation of the constitution in that we have to seek out a permit just to live our lives. And we shouldn't be intimidated by a bunch of people in badges just to participate in this activity, and to live our lives normally.
This post (especially coming from a little kid like yourself) scares me in that, "Big Brother" can restrict our activities, and control our lives with a bunch of lies in the name of "protection," and can set more restrictions and deny our rights, and arrest us without probable cause.
And usually with flash ;)
Does anyone have links of NYC Subway or Staten Island Railway routes for Microsoft Train Simulator?
WMATA routes/cars?
YES, I heard of BVE, but i cant get it to work, because it sucks (no offense, Its my opinion).
Also, any NYCT cars?
Specifically R40s, R44s, R142/142As or R143s? But any NYC cars are cool (except Redbirds because i already have R29s). Also some Rohrs, Bredas or CAFs?
I would REALLY appreciate this. Thanks in advance!
-Chris
-Chris
Please Stand By for a Shameless Plug of Auran Trainz!
Adam
http://www.3dgamers.com/news/more/1083230323/
Mackoy will CONTINUE to develop BVE though ... :)
P.S. I apologize in advance for the quality (or lack thereof) of some of the photos.
http://www.nycrail.com/images/ciy_r110b_r46_5_13_04/r110b_0013.JPG
there appear to be rollsign settings for C to the Rockaways. That's enough to get me going!
What's strange is that the rollsign seems to have a Far Rockaway C reading and a Lefferts C listing but no Rock Park C listing, unless I'm seeing things.
And one of the cars at CIY has been showing its orange A for years.
It looks as if teh route letters are planned a bit in advance. These trains came around 1992 and they have provisions for a 6th Ave V service and a Broadway peak hour W service, neither of which would come into usage for at least 9 years.
Thanks for the rollsign list! It'll be in my Rollsign Gallery soon!
I saw electricians wiring the platform lights and the track gang putting the finishing work on the Culver tracks. Granted, the timing with the opening of the summer season is paramount. Still, the contractors must be putting on extra help and working around the clock to open in time. I couldn't see the new fare controls, so who knows if it's finished or not.
Is West 8th street to reopen on the 23rd ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Then Sea Beach Fred will fly in to ride the first (N) into the rebuilt Stillwell. Don't know if the Cyclone will be open for him !
Bill "Newkirk"
-Broadway Buffer
This work is part of MTA New York City Transit's ongoing effort to maintain and upgrade the subway system. We regret any inconvenience you may experience.
Enlighten me G1.
It supposed to be "We regret any inconvenience you have experienced during the reconstruction."
Since reconstruction will still be going on at the terminal the present tense "may experience" is correct. There could be times when the trains won't be able to go into the terminal.
The past tense "have experienced" would only come into play when the whole terminal is finished.
D to Brighton Beach!!
My solution: the B49 from Sheepshead Bay. It runs more reliably, too, and doesn't tend to get quite as crowded.
Terminal delays entering Brighton Beach will be reduced, and that's enough to cheer for.
COOL!
Finally!
Are they going to close off the (D) platform now and rebuild that?
-Chris
Da Hui
I'm counting about 8.
The C arguably applies, but when the C is running, nothing else serves the local stations in Brooklyn. Similarly for the B, Z, and 9 (if the latter two are considered routes of their own). The eighth is probably the Rock Park shuttle, which is supplemented by a few A specials per day.
I get the B, C, 42nd Street Shuttle, Rockaway Shuttle, V, and W.
9, Z, C, Times Sq. Shuttle, Rockaway Shuttle, W, V, B
The E if you consider WTC and Chambers to be one station.
The 2 has only one unique station.
Aside from the N, what route is scheduled to stop at Sea Beach stops?
B, C, V, W, either the J or the Z, either the 1 or the 9, <5>, <6>, <7>, TS/GC shuttle, Leffert's shuttle, and Rockaway Park shuttle.
Two close contenders are the D, serving only Norwood Ave exclusively, and the E with Van Wyck and WTC (assuming WTC is not part of Chambers St station, which it isn't since it has a different name)
What makes this the "official" list? Because it was my question of course.
(I'm a teacher. I'm good at inventing questions. Not so hot at answering them.)
http://subway.com.ru/images/1985p-map-hr.jpg
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
B
C(protest)
V
W
J/Z
1/9
Rockaway Park Shuttle (protest)
Protest: All routes which are usually the only line to serve x amount of stations at a certain time.
<5><6><7> : I protest on the fact that these arent official subway lines, but only trains designated to be rerouted at certain hours.
Two close contenders are the D, serving only Norwood Ave exclusively
25th Avenue, Bay 50th Street, and until May 23, Coney Island is also served by the D.
and the E with Van Wyck and WTC (assuming WTC is not part of Chambers St station, which it isn't since it has a different name)
It's no apart of Chambers Street, but you still can get the A,C,2 or 3 if theres a incident that prevents E service from going pass Chamber Street.
I wonder what are at the sites now?
--Mark
-Stef
TransiTALK Update v9.20
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Regards,
Trevor Logan
If you dont see May 14th on the showroom's tan window, reload, that means that your computer probably cookied an older verison of the page. I know sometimes I have to do that because the computer stores cookies of viewed sites for faster loading but fails to recognize any updates.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.info
Anyway, don't ever stop.
Trevor
http://www.fra.dot.gov/Content2.asp?P=1462
UTU interpretation of Story here:
http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=14028
When the UP meltdown reaches critical mass (for one), then we shall see if the FRA relents on this issue. Not the first blunder that the FRA has committed by far.
http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=14026
And from unbiased sources:
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1084447881192040.xml
Text of the UTU article, since UTU represents railroad workers:
---------------------------
GOP blocks vote on overtime
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- House Republicans rebuffed a Democratic
attempt Wednesday (May 12) to force an election-year vote on the
Bush administration's new overtime pay rules, according to this
Associated Press report published by the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.
The 222-205 vote blocked a move by Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., to
force the House to take sides on the issue. Miller sought a vote on a
provision to require the new regulations to retain eligibility for all
workers who now qualify for overtime pay.
"They have shut down debate and denied a vote in Congress so that
the Bush administration can take away workers' overtime pay," said
Miller, the top Democrat on the House Education and Workforce
Committee.
The GOP-controlled Senate approved a similar measure last week. The
Labor Department rules were issued last month and will take effect in
August.
Miller's procedural move to force a vote surprised Republican House
leaders, who quickly scrambled for the votes to block the effort.
The new regulations mark the first thorough overhaul of government
overtime rules in more than 50 years. Administration officials say the
rules will guarantee overtime rights for white-collar workers earning
up to $23,660 a year and protect or expand eligibility for those
earning up to $100,000.
(The preceding Associated Press report was published by the Fort
Worth Star-Telegram on Thursday, May 13, 2004.)
May 13, 2004
There's fear that for jobs that can be reclassified, employers will give you an automatic raise to 24k, so you don't get overtime anymore.
Longer waiting times for PATH trains
HOBOKEN, N.J. -- Starting the week of May 30, PATH trains traveling
from Hoboken to the World Trade Center station will run every six
minutes instead of five during rush hour and every 12 minutes instead
of 10 during off-peak hours on weekdays, according to an article in
The Jersey Journal. In an effort to reduce spending, the Port Authority
of New York and New Jersey, which runs the system, also proposed
eliminating direct service between Hoboken and 33rd St. and the
World Trade Center stations on weekends. But after calls of concern
from Hoboken Mayor David Roberts, that proposal was thrown out and
weekend service will remain the same. "These eliminations were not
in the interest of Hoboken," said Roberts, who called the Port
Authority after he was contacted by The Jersey Journal on Tuesday
and told of the proposed changes. "I spent the better part of
yesterday (Tuesday) with the leadership of New Jersey and the Port
Authority to resolve this," Roberts said yesterday. "I'm very
appreciative to the Port Authority for listening to my concerns and
addressing my issues." Roberts pointed how dependent many
Hoboken residents are on PATH service to and from Manhattan. He
said he was less concerned with the delays in weekday service and
called it a scheduling decision that is up to the Port Authority. As long
as the direct routes from Hoboken are preserved, he said he felt
satisfied. Officials from the Port Authority did not return phone calls
yesterday seeking an explanation for the longer rush-hour waiting
times. Raymond Arenas, chairman of United Transportation Union
Local 1413, which represents PATH conductors, revealed the proposed
weekend train service elimination in a letter sent this week to The
Journal. "I have to protect the public," said Arenas. "The public needs
to know. We're happy that they (the PATH) are keeping the weekend
service, but how do they justify the weekday delays?" (The preceding
article by Christian Adamkiewicz was published May 13, 2004, by the
The Jersey Journal.)
May 13, 2004
And of course, no budget this year either from Paturkey and Bruno ... MTA's about to get word from what I hear from my legislative types to jettison their purchasing plans or at least postpone them. Word is "don't expect a budget before September" ... and until then, EVERYTHING stops dead in its tracks as far as disbursements. In fact, the acrimony between Bruno and Paturkey and Silver is getting *so* bad, word is the NEXT round of "emergency funding" might not happen at all. If this ACTUALLY happens, everyone in civil service gets furloughed and the state shuts down. This has NEVER happened before as bad as it's gotten.
And *ALL* of these prima donnas are up for re-election this November. Except for Paturkey (not Governor election year) and Bruno is running (as usual) UNOPPOSED ... :(
However, there are real questions here: what is the demand like? Has it risen back to the pre 9/11 level in the peak times, where trains arrived/left the WTC at the maximum rate of one every 90 seconds and they were standing room only to sardine-packed?
Subsidizing the treasuries of New York State and New Jersey (through "allocation") is their PRIMARY function. Whatever is left over after the shakedowns by the states can be distributed for ports, airports and trains. I suspect PATH got shaken down a bit deeper and possibly revenues are down, requiring the move.
I don't really know WHY they're doing this, I was under the impression that particularly at rush hour, the trains were pretty crush loaded as it was. Is ridership down?
PATH has always lost a bit of money, just like all transit systems. The PA took a huge 1-shot hit with all the expenses related to 9/11, not all of which got covered. And now ridership has to be down. There are simply 200,000 fewer seats for office workers in downtown than there were on 9/10/2001, and more of those seats are vacant.
The PA is also taking a big hit on lower airport fees as a result of the continuing reduction in passenger volumes.
None of this suggests that the PA isn't also playing other shenanigans. But the overall pot they have to play shenanigans with has shrunk.
Something tells me that a shutdown would NOT be an end-of-the-world type thing. In fact, it might be a relief.
It's REALLY time to throw these neocon bastards out of office. There MIGHT have been an excuse when they could throw their trash at the other party. Now that they own everything up and down, the idjits don't even REALIZE they no longer have THAT excuse. :(
The union went to court yesterday seeking to block the MTA from dismissing the worker. The worker denies making the remark and the union is maintaining that there is a freedom of speech issue.
The alleged comments were made 3 days after the murders occurred.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/193254p-167027c.html
Perhaps the MTA realizes that they don't have solid grounds to fire the worker and just brought him up on charges to cause him some aggravation.
I do not work for the MTA, and I feel free to discuss this issue. I don't know what the MTA policy is about workers discussing issues in a public space such SubTalk. If I worked for MTA, I would be careful of what I said here.
On the other hand, if the maintenance worker really did make that comment (if so, at least two people heard him - the supervisor and the person he was talking to, and anyone else within earshot), then he might stop and think about the effect his words had. The next time he needs a schedule change, a favor of some sort, wants a promotion, well, I could understand if somebody reminds him of this...
Labor relations are quite difficult, the relationship between worker and supervisor is difficult, and the work is difficult, not only for the cleaners, but also for the supervisors. To my way of thinking, it is far easier to clean subway cars, than to manage the people who clean the cars: The cars do not answer back.
You would think that at $25.00 (as the article aledges) cleaners would be more responsible, need less supervision, and be loyal to their work and to their employers. It is possible to be loyal to an employer, and to still have difficulty with a supervisor.
The initial published report stated that the issue was over a request to "clean gum from a subway car floor," a task entirely within the scope of the employee's job description, and a request entirely within the realm of the supervisor to make albeit nothing was said of the tone of the request, respons, and of the events and relationships leading up to this "final-request." Today's article aledges that this accuesed employee said that the initial incident was over an employee playing dominoes: clearly an infraction since the involved employee was not berforming assigned tasks, this assumes that this thing did not occur during a break in the break room.
I would hardly call "slacking-off" a terminal offence, though it would engender a freindly repremand and a reminder to keep at the task for which a man was being paid to work. Yet if such offences were to continue, the enforcement by supervision would necesiarrily escalate to written repremands and then to some higher supervision with the authority to make more drastic remadies upto and including termination. Clearly an employee-supervisorial relationship that has gone this far is in deep trouble.
"Stop playing dominoes, and clean this gum up off the floor of the car!"
It is a shame that supervisors must cadjole workers at this salary range to do their work. Workers ought to know what needs to be done and how to do it with minimal supervision. There are x number of trains to be cleaned, and y number of hours to do it in. If a worker is efficient, they can do the required job in less time, and then what are they to do with the rest of their shift? Play dominoes? But how come you left this gum on the floor?
Your'e fired. --- BANG!
My how civilized we have become.
It really is not a TA issue. It is an issue of respect and of human relations. The worker ought to respect the job, the employer, and the supervisor. The Supervisor ought to respect those who do the work, even while leading the staff to be flexible when situations occur that require efforts out of the ordinary.
When this mutual respect fails, there is a problem. I fail to understand why employer-employee relationships must take on such and adversairial aire, but I must accept the fact that they do.
Because they do, there is no ready answer. Supervisors must be trained and skilled in personel management issues. Unfortunately, they are only promoted from the work force that they are managing by dint of their own competence,in this case in cleaning cars, rather then by their competence in personel management and human relations, which is what their new title required.
But what then? Is every supervisor to be a college grad with a major in sociology and in industrial relations? What avenues of advancement would that leave to the car cleaners?
Add to that the fact that some employees are orcs, and are educated like orcs, live like orcs, and behave like orcs, because regardless of the wage, no one else will apply for the work, and compounded by the fact that employment is by civil service list, which in its egalterian fairness makes no alowance for screening peoples based on their emotional and social maturity, and suitability for meaningful interaction with the rest of the human race.
Tough Job. Good thing I'm not a supervisor, eh?
Elias
Haven't you been hear long enough to know that logic and reason simply do not apply when it comes to NYCTA labor/management relations?
CG
As for Blackmon, they waited 3 months to file charges and then claimed it was part of a zero tolerance campaign. Thirty working days is the standard limit. What the article and the TA does not mention is that Blackmon was a pain in the ass of the TA in his capacity as a Union rep. When Mgmt would not repair stuff after many complaints he arrainged for some of the politicos to take a look and all of a sudden all is repaired.
NYCT policy allows zero tollerance for workplace violence or the threat of the same. As with racial slurs or with sexual harassment, it is the perception of the receiver and not the intent of the speaker which determines if the offending remark rises to the level of unacceptability. In other words did the supervisor take the remark as a threat?
I'm not trying to defend what happened at Coney since I'm not privvy to the actual details, nor is it my business. But I sure do have a big problem when "the recipient" is the arbitor under the law of what MY intentions. I find this frightening actually. :(
There's a difference between what's illegal and what's grounds for firing. Consider for example some of the more drastic things that have been posted here. Nobody could end up in jail for them, but if some of those phrases were said by one coworker to another they would be ample grounds for firing the speaker. Most workplaces have zero tolerance for someone suggesting that the place would be improved if someone else ended up dead.
I also have no idea what actually happened, but in principle I certainly feel there are some things you just can't say in a workplace, not even once.
You're absolutely right about the workplace environment. If people can't get along, then they're not working. But there's a bigger picture to this, and it's where the COURTS get involved. THAT'S what I find objectionable since an offended party would prevail even if there was no intentional tort ... :(
What is going on here? If there were disciplinary issues fine. There are legal and appeals procedures to cover that. But some people are trying to justify the deaths of two people without any thought of the impact of those CRIMES on several families and many friends.
Should the worker who made the comments noted in the article be fired? Probably not. But has he had even a moment of reflection to think about the pain that those stupid, unfeeling words had on people? Probably not, either.
It's one of the glories of our political system that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution allows you to say things that make you look like a complete moron.
"You may have heard that the seats are narrower than our other cars. That's true; each seat is approximately 1/4 inch narrower."
1/4 of an inch ? Could the real illusion here be that the seat cushions are new and stiff and not well worn like the M-1/3' s ?
In the past, I rode on a LIRR M-1 with new seats. The cushions were rather stiff with no give, which gave me the impression that they may be narrower. If anyone wants to know why seat cushions need to be replaced, besides vandalism, some seats have too much give and you feel like you're ready to sink into the cushion.
On the M-7's, I did notice that the wall mounted arm rest seems to jut into you where the ones on the M-1/3's are recessed a little more.
Any observations ?
Bill "Newkirk"
What is your son's situation? Do you have any physical evidence? Just because someone is expressing themself in a non-standard manner does not mean they are out commiting crimes.
Anyway if it comes up in conversation just ask something like "You don't go out at night tagging trains do you?" in a light hearted way and see how he reacts to the question.
And a 300-pound cellmate who's been feeling really lonely lately.
Not all graffiti is vandalism, it depends on the medium.
I don't think you know the difference between graffiti and tagging (or vandalism).
I guess you didn't read Englishman's original post, did you? He's afraid that his son is a graffiti artist. I'm saying that MIGHT NOT BE A BAD THING.
Do you think you can grasp that concept? What am I saying? Of course not!
No, it'll just prove that vandalism is illegal, which doesn't have to be proven anyway.
graffiti != vandalism
You're calling an activity with some resemblence to a similar but unlawful activity the same name as the unlawful activity. It's like calling a boxing match a mugging.
Completely wrong. Has anybody actually tried LOOKING THINGS UP instead of just posting preconceived notions?
My definition of graffiti:
The end result of someone utilizing a writing or a painting or a marking or a scratching tool upon a surface (usually public) which has not been "officially" sanctioned by the owners or the controllers of the surface to be put to such a use. Some may well incorporate certain artistic styles that came from studying the results of the illegal activities. But that in itself is not a proscribed activity. Sure, definitions change with the times. But I would call anyone who claimed to be a graffiti artist yet had never actually broken any laws in producing their artwork a wannabe. Talking the talk doesn't mean you can walk the walk.
A drawing or inscription made on a wall or other surface, usually so as to be seen by the public. Often used in the plural.
That having been said, I would not be averse to a meaning change by society. I have to be logically consistent.
Grafitti- Sometimes legal, Sometimes Attractive.
Tagging- The type of grafitti that is neither of the above.
Tagging = 'Kilroy was here!' or 'Turk 182' (scrawling a name or phrase on a public surface, usually with a magic marker).
Graffiti = painting with spray cans (illegal or legal graphic lettering or scenes on a public or private surface)
Regards,
Jimmy
(See "Now these should be 1 : 1 Scale ", above )
As of now, I'd say we're going to have close to 10-12 people which can give us 3 or 4 groups--I can live with that, it'll stay competitive...I'd still like a few more...I even got an e-mail from a 15-year old who'll be traveling down on Acella and staying with his Aunt on Connecticut Ave NW....Hey Dylan, We all look forward to having you be a part of our contingent of Metro Maniacs...he says he does have a working knowledge of the DC system---
So, Remember, JUNE 19th, NOT June 5th.
Mark
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Please email me, I tried to email you and it bounced several times.
Bill
Too bad the 3rd Ave El is gone; Fordham Rd-190th st station was right nearby.
wayne
You could always take the els "replacement" the BX55 bus.
Peace,
ANDEE
Also, you can take Metro North to Fordham Road Station. Arthur Avenue is about 2 blocks east of that.
Finally, you can take the Bx55 Limited Bus from 149 St.-3rd Avenue Station. It replaces the 3rd Avenue El. Plus you get to see what used to be well-known as The Hub (sort of Downtown Bronx).
-----------------------------
Also, the first 2 blocks of Arthur Avenue south of Fordham Road do not have much. Do not be discouraged. By the time you get to 187 St. (is that it?) you will be inundated with the best of Italian culture (and the best prosciutto!).
The walk is quick and safe in the day time, and at night, it's safe to walk (with someone) until around 10 p.m. After that, I would take a taxi or the bus back up to the Concourse.
Alternatively, you can take the 4 train to Fordham Road and take the Bx12 to the same stop, but I would not suggest walking from the 4 train to Arthur Ave.
You can also take the Metro-North to Fordham Road, and it's about four or five blocks east of that.
Those are the easiest routes to take.
Arthur Ave. is the best... I suggest Ann & Tony's or Mario's if you're looking for a good place to eat. The Marketplace is great too.
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ny08_nadler/Tunnel_050604.html
Why does NYC and LI need a whole new tunnel under Upper NY Harbor only for freight trains? Why can't the exsisting Pennsy Tunnels be used? A new yard could be constructed in Sunnyside, with a companion yard in the Meadowlands, and freights held at either yard until the traffic in the tunnel clears up. Heck you could even do the engine swap at that time. I know the Pennsy tubes aren't nearly crowded off peak, I rode the Federal through there last week and the place was desolate, freights could parade through there after a 6 hour maximum wait.
If we do have to build a new freight tunnel, why can't the same thing be accomplished with one project? In addition to the Freight Tunnel, NY is currently asking for a plan to bring LIRR into Lower Manhattan, NJT is seeking more throughput across the river, AND MNRR is looking into putting tracks on a rebuilt Tappan Zee Bridge for service to GCT. I'm all for more cross-river capacity up in NY, perhaps it'll take a few cars out of the tunnels and parking garages. But 4 projects which really seek to accomplish the same goal running roughly parallel to each other seems a massive waste of capitol to me. Why can't we consolidate all four projects into one?
I know I keep harping on this, but I honestly think Elias's plan for a World Trade Station is by far the best compromise of the four ideas yet. It provides NJT, MN, and LIRR with access to Lower Manhattan (in the case of MN, it's only access to Manhattan for the West Side Lines) , also allows for the running of freight through during midday and late night hours. It'll take stress off the Pennsy Hudson and East River tubes, allowing those to possibly be used for freight off peak as well. NJT will eventually need more Manhattan access, even if the ARC plan for a new lower level to NYP and two new tracks under the Hudson is done, and especially if the rebuilt Tappan Zee doesn't support rail (which sounds like the current plan, LRT or BRT maybe, but not Commuter Rail). A joint system lower manhattan TC is the perfect way to accomplish that, something where NJT, LIRR and the MN West Side lines (as well as possibly MN NH Line trains via the Hell Gate) can all come into one terminal, making for easy transfers and reduced costs than four separate projects.
LIRR to downtown. They can hold off on that for now. However, in the future, for getting all 3 downtown(which should be the actual goal), this might work:
extend MN from GCT to NYP(this way, all 3 lines instead of just 2 can reach NYP). From there, MN and LIRR trains continue west to West Side Highway, where they turn south. NJT would sink a few tracks at Hoboken, then continue them under the Hudson to the west side highway, where they'd turn south. All would terminate at Fulton St.
It could be 4 tracks:
T1: LIRR with LIRR 3rd rail
T2: LIRR and NJT with LIRR 3rd rail and Cat
T3: NJT and MN New Haven line with Cat
T4: MN Hudson and Harlem(and when needed, New Haven) with MN 3rd rail
or
T1: LIRR with LIRR 3rd rail
T2: NJT/MN New Haven with cat
T3: MN Hudson/Harlem/New Haven(only when needed) with MN 3rd rail.
Cross Harbor tunnel: I think that since they are trying to get double stacks in, the current east river tubes/tunnels wont work. They're too low I believe. However, they could just route the trains via TPZ and the cross county tracks(I287 rail line). For now, since I'm 99% sure there are no double stacks on LI, they probably could use the east river tubes/tunnels off peak.
The one major problem I have with cross harbor is that they are promoting it as a freight only tunnel. Why not run passenger trains on it as well? From Jamaica, down the Bay Ridge branch. Have the tunnel run to St George instead and use it as an extension of SIRT. Hell, some trains could run through the tunnel, up the Bay Ridge, and then via a new track connection, onto the LIRR main and into Manhattan.
Too short, too narrow, can't run freight cars past Penn Station platforms without damaging both platform and freight car . . . heck, Amtrak and NJT determined that LIRR's C-3 bilevels are too tall for the North River tunnels, so what does that tell you?
Take a ride on PATH & try to count all the freight cars there.
Guess where that freight is headed, and how it's getting there.
Need more input ... count the trucks coming across the George Washington or V-N bridges.
I'm not against the tunnel, Ir's just not going to make an impact until they get serious and build an intermodal hub on LI. and apparently the last place to do that, the pilgram site, has dropped off the radar.
Paturkey promises lots of improvements all the time, but they're still derailing cars in places like the bushwick branch every month, which sees a huge amount of trash traffic these days.
I'll believe any of it when I see it...
What would our best bet be? Subway? Taxi? Please help...
Thanks!
Lost from upstate... (please, please no upstate jokes haha)
Beware DO NOT CARRY ANY ALCOHOL, you will be stopped at 161 by NYPD.
They want you to BUY their own brand of diluted mouse pee.
Besides that they want to prevent empty containers from being used as missiles.
And finally, there is the homeland security issue: if you look at their webside, diaper bags are permitted.
: ) Elias
I wonder how much is real security (I can understand no bottles, but cans or plastics?) and how much is craven commercialism–ya gotta buy ours?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I remember some art houses in NY would let you buy booze to take into a cinema but I guess not these days. Sigh
The best subway route is the (A) uptown to 125th, then transfer to the (D)--unless it's the evening rush hour, in which case that transfer at 125th would be to the (B). Get off at 161st Street in The Bronx and walk two blocks west (away from the courthouse) to Yankee Stadium.
:-) Andrew
We will be arriving at Penn Station (via Amtrak) around 10:30ish. The game is starting at 1:00. Obviously we'd like to get there as early as possible.
At this time of day would you recommend the cab? If so, do you have a guess on the amount it'd cost to go to the stadium from Penn St?
Or do you think I should follow the subway instructions you posted?
Thanks!
Either way mentioned (2 to 4, or A/C to D) is good for you.
Considering the traffic in midtown and how long it would take to get to the Bronx it could cost you $12.00 or more in cab fare.
You are better off taking the subway @ $2.00 per person.
Follow the subway instructions. The A to 125th and then take the D to 161St. Try to be in the middle of the train. That will leave you by staircases at 161 St that are the closest to the Stadium.
Again, thanks for the help!
Regards,
Not so lost upstater...
Because Amtrak is at the 8th Avenue end of Penn Station, taking the A (from the EXPRESS Center platform UPTOWN) to 125 St, then the D to 161 St (which is the exact same station as the #4 elevated station at 161 St, just below ground). From Penn Station to 125, the A goes 3 stops (skipping 8 local stations), then the D goes for 3 more to 161 St (skipping 1 local station).
For variety, take the A+D there and the 4+2 back. Heck, you can even go back on the Downtown-bound 4 to Grand Central (42 St), then the Shuttle to Times Square, then the 1,2,or 3 train Downtown one stop to Penn Station.
Taxi fare could be $15.00 + tip or more because it's about 8 miles, subway is $2.00 person each way and much more reliable than traffic in NYC.
Why walk 2 blocks to the west (you must be thinking about Walton Ave exit at the Burger King side), when you can exit at the middle with the crowd and turn left after exiting the turnstiles. The last 2 staircases in the back lead you to in front of the Stadium.
Don't ride all the way to Penn. Get off at Yonkers instead (from your Handle, I'm assuming that you are riding down on Empire service that stops at Yonkers at 9:57 and then Penn at 10:25).
Take a Metro North train from Yonkers (leaves 10:06) to 125 Street (arrives 10:27). Walk one block east and take an uptown 4 train 3 stops to Yankee Stadium. This should get you to the stadium about 15-20 minutes faster than the other options presented.
CG
At, of course, the cost of an extra train fare.
Nah... I'd take AMTK to Penn, and *I* would have taken the IRT (2 to 4) combination, becaues I used to life on the upper West Side, and the IRT was always my train, but I can see where the A/D combination would actually be better.
Naturally when *I* used to go to the stadium every Sunday, I'd just drive in from Long Island: Arrive 4 hourse before game time to get a good parking place on the first level right by the exit, and then could visit the town before game time.
: ) The YANKEE Lion!
CG
CG
CG
CG
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
By the way: What is the difference between taking the 2-4 and the C-D? Is there a time difference?? Will i get confused when trying to find one or the other??
Thanks,
By the way: What is the difference between taking the 2-4 and the C-D? Is there a time difference?? Will i get confused when trying to find one or the other??
Thanks,
Oh, BTW, don't hold your breath on the Amtrak actually bein on time.
I'm interested to see...
This is fairly common. The last 45 minutes of trains to Chicago can usually be done also in 15 minutes, but they throw in the extra half-hour so they can be "on time" more often.
How many sets of stairs lead down to the mezzanine from the N/B & S/B platforms of the IRT station? And finally, how many sets of stairs lead down to street level from the IRT mezzanine?
Thanks for all the info...
End.
STPNY: Where Transit Comes Alive
Actually it's the "Draft Environmental Assessment and Section 4(f) Evaluation".
The platform extension alternative is said to have been rejected because a crossover would have had to be relocated.
The crossover is said to be critical for handling service disruptions, and to provide flexibility for maintenance.
I am not sure that I understand the importance of the crossover, or why it would have to be relocated.
So far I have not found any reference in the document to the peak capacity of the terminal in trains per hour.
The crossover is said to be critical for handling service disruptions, and to provide flexibility for maintenance.
I am not sure that I understand the importance of the crossover, or why it would have to be relocated.
The crossover is important, but there's no need for it to be relocated. Leaving it in place would mean that trains coming from the East Side wouldn't be able to platform (or, rather, to fully platform) at South Ferry. But when was the last time that an in-service train came from the East Side and opened its doors at South Ferry? On the rare occasion passenger service runs from the East Side to the West Side, it runs nonstop between Bowling Green and Chambers.
At least two other stations have switches within the bounds of the platforms: Junius and 238/Broadway.
The platform extension alternative was also rejected because it doesn't add ADA compliance. The reader is left to wonder why not. Was an elevator "accidentally" omitted from the plans?
So far I have not found any reference in the document to the peak capacity of the terminal in trains per hour.
Nor have I. It seems to me that track capacity is perhaps the most important question, and it isn't even addressed.
An unsupported statement on the MTA website claims that the capacity will be 24 tph. Maximum current service is 20 tph. Assuming that number is not reduced, parking a disabled train on one of the two terminal tracks will cause much worse delays than sending it uptown to the Times Square spur. Recovery time, which is currently effectively 90 seconds during peak times, will be reduced to 30 seconds (the difference between the maximum claimed throughput of the proposed terminal and the actual headway of the line). The DEA claims that two major benefits of the proposed terminal are the ability to park disabled trains in the station during peak hours and increased recovery times. These claims are not supported quantitatively, and I think we can all see why.
Also Exchange Place on PATH.
And, if the stub terminal were implemented, the Lex would have no way at all to reach *that* station, only the existing SF station, which one would assume would be filled with rats, grafitti, spiderwebs and skells, being that it would no longer be used for regular service.
Once again, the solution in search of a problem fails to find one.
I am sure the transit museum would be able to find no shortage of voulenteers to tag up the train although I am assuming they would mask the windows so as not to cheese off $40-a-ticket MoD riders.
Another idea sort of builds on that whole "mystery diner train" there where actors put on a mystery thing for the riders as the train goes on it's excursion. Basically, riders on the MoD train's tagged cars would be able to experiance authentic 70's subway muggings via out of work Broadway actors. They could then be "saved" by another actor playing a subway vigilante.
Anyway, I am totally serious about this. As much as NYC has changed it still has a rough and tumble reputation in the world. The rough and tumble days of 70's NYC do have a place in the history books and future generations should be able to experiance it via a museum. Moreover, I think that a good number of people would want to see how NYC was like back in the 70's and such an exhibit would really draw out new museum patrons.
The graffitti era represented a bad time in NYC Subway history. There is no reason to recreate it.
Besides such a train might give this generation the message that it is OK to tag a train or a station. We went through that once - there is no need to have it start up again.
Besides such a train might give this generation the message that it is OK to tag a train or a station. We went through that once - there is no need to have it start up again.
By that logic the the National Holocaust Museum in DC makes current and future world leaders believe that genocide is OK.
Now on a much smaller scale (and not to try to compare it to such atrocities), graffiti is a major part of the subway's history. Most people would want to forget that it ever happened, because it was a horrible part of the subway's history (and NYC's too). However, we can't pretend it didn't happen, because it did. The subway is 100 years old this year, and for 20 years out of those 100, the subway looked like that. It's hardly a small era in the system's history. If anything, the MTA should not want to forget about it. They should actually be proud that they took such a system in shambles, and turned it into the world class system it is again today.
History is made up of good and bad things. Just like we can not forget the bad things that happened in world history, the bad things that happened on a smaller scale in the subject of "subway history" should also not really be forgotten. Graffiti is just as much a part of the subway's history as the BMT Standards themselves are.
If you memorialize the first type, everyone will see how disgusting it really was and agree how the aystem is much improved now. But if you immortalize the second type, people will say, "Gee that's really neat. I wonder why they got rid of it." And it might encourage that type of activity again.
But I see nothing wrong with a photo exhibit showing both types of grafitti and explaining that the "good type" was in the minority. I remember seeing a book once with hundreds of pictures of the artistic type of grafitti before the windows were cleaned and it looked damned good, at least in a book.
The "first" type is what I am thinking of. That is the kind of graffiti that was most common, and covered every inch of every surface of the subway. The "second" type was rare and it didn't last long, as it was usually covered over with the "first" type.
While your idea may sond interesting for the most part, it does not respresent in the best interests of the NYC TM to go back to an era of lawlessness as if people will really want to see a badly "tagged" car. We are now seeing instances of vandals at Concourse Yard, Chauncey St and other places that the resources should be dedicated to wiping out the scourge before it comes back.
There is a graffitti museum in Long Island City, around the bend from the #7 train between 45th Rd/CHS and Hunters Point Ave. That's good enough.
When some Straphangers Campaign nut starts whining and bitching the MTA rep can instruct him or her to go down to the Transit Museum and check out the exhibit on 70's Subway travel. That'll win any arguement.
The type of thing that happened at Chauncey St is nothing new. Someone just happened to catch it on film this time. This has been happening since the late 80's and early 90's when they first put stations in the "graffiti free" program. I have seen most elevated stations tagged over the years since then over and over. The thing is, they remove it right away. (Notice how Dante reported that the station had been cleaned up the next day). Most elevated stations probably have 50 layers of paint by this point on their windscreens from just the type of thing that happened at Chuancey St. It's nothing new, and it's nothing to worry about, as long as they keep cleaning it up in a timely fashion, which they have been.
One of the guys that did some AMAZING graffiti work back in the 70s and 80s is now a tatto parlor owner in the bronx and has an amazing web site.
www.seenworld.com
If anyone, this guy should be the one to tag up the car. His work looks more like art and less like mindless scribble!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.info
I'm not a graffiti artist, I AM a graphics artist!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.info
Your pal,
Fred
Regards,
Jimmy
#3 West End Jeff
I ask because in that famous scene in "Ghost", one or two trains are seen running through the station (the wrong way - uptown!) at fairly high speed. I assume the track was still connected to the main line at that point in time (1989-1990).
Anyone know?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Robert
Chuck
Why can't I have dreams about trains instead of flowering with a girl?
Thanks
But this time my next phone will be certainly be a pleasant surprise for Subtalk which I won't reveal here at this time.
We DO have such a system.... it's called Name Tags.
But they're a rarity (since few and far ham-and-eggers actually WEAR theirs)...
More likely to be found among SubTALKers on a MOD trip
(rather than a simple "impromptu getogether").
Much props (still!) to Sir Ronald for making the aforementioned tags.
-Chris
You want to take the original photograph with the maximum resolution you have. Then you can decide to reduce it (according to what the final destination is) later.
Optical zoom, by the way, is where camera phones lose. It takes a certain amount of space to rearrange the lens elements, which is difficult to build into the form factor of a phone. On the whole, I would agree with the advice to keep phone and camera separate.
(OTOH: I read in the past couple of days that Qualcomm, a major supplier to the cell phone industry, has a 6Mp chipset available for cell phone makers!)
Nokia and Sharp already have megapixel cam phones. The new motos are pure trash... meh
I want to make a good decision when I buy my digital camera.
Buy the newest Sprint Pocket PC (when it comes out this summer), and since the Pocket PC will have a SIDO card slot, I can buy a 5 MP or greater digital camera that takes the same card slot format as the Pocket PC and everyone will enjoy hig quality photos for me.
Now let me end the surprise: How does a video phone sound?
Buy a DV camera if you are doing video
Will the dog find it tasty?
I can't believe this is in the 90's. Technologically, and everything yet while NYC has managed to destroy this problem. Other subway systems haven't been able too. Which begs this question, why doesn't the L.U. have a Stainless Steel car yet?
Appreciate NYCTA cars
Aluminium is lighter.
Both aluminum and stainless steel techincally do rust very fast when they are in contact with oxygen, but what happens is that the aluminum or chromium in steel rapidly forms a thin oxide layer on the surface of the metaL, which shields the rest of the aluminum or steel from the oxygen, thus protecting it from rusting.
To put that photograph into perspective; If you project the cleaning of that one car in NYCT terms it might cost over $1,000 in labor and supplies to clean that one side of that one car. The picture indicate more than one side and more than one car so you are looking at several thousand dollars and several days of those cars sitting out of service.
The NYCT practice of not permitting graffitied subway cars to operate on the mainlines has deterred most of the vandalism. If they don't see their handiwork they don't get their 'stimulation'. The other major factor in the success of the NYCT anti-graffiti program is the aggressive pursuit by the NYCT Transit Bureau Vandal Squad. Some of the more determined vandals actually paint the names of some of the squad members into their 'artwork'. That only adds to the incentice to catch them - which they do with amazing success.
All NYC subway cars since 1965, well before the graffiti epidemic hit, have been stainless steel, so I'd guess graffiti removal wasn't a huge consideration.
I'll admit the grafetti art looks cool, but it also looks like somebody still thinks its the 70/80's.
Power to the flower...(cough)
Anyways, with the money LU makes on distince based fares, they shouldnt have too much of a problem cleaning the cars. Even though the pics from the 90's.
Also the normal stock ran the Met in its last days before they got rehabed, right?
wayne
The District D78 stock has single-leaf doors, but these are 60-foot (B Division size) cars. While not perfect there either, they seemed to work out better on the larger cars.
wayne
Take at look at this one! District line at Wimbledon.
wayne
I noticed some tagging in London last January, but by and large it wasn't too bad.
wayne
It definitely doesn't help matters that LU is currently practicing 'deferred maintenance'.
I didn't notice any exterior graffitti out on the road but I DID see a train of 1992 Tube Stock in one of the yards that had been tagged.
wayne
Appreciate NYCTA cars"
READ next time.
Appreciate NYCTA cars"
READ next time.
-Chris
wayne
Now I am not advocating Grafitti, I don't like it's disgusting, but a museum's job is to show history, even the bad ones so we can appreciate, I think the degredation period of the late 60's, 70's and half of the 80's need to be shown and 1 subway car of grafitti will be a good way to illustrate what subway cars were like during that era. A window into the past will be great for subway historians like myself, who werent able to see it first hand.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Alas, most of it, like "DONDI" was anything but.
I saved the files after the site went down, if you want them, e-mail me.
1. There are no spare electric locomotives available (e.g., the AEM-7s Amtrak has replaced with HHP-8's don't work)
2. ConnDOT doesn't have the $$$ purchase new or used equipment (or more precisely Mr. Rowland won't shell out the bucks).
3. AEM's and other electric locos aren't compatible with the coaches (SPV's and SL's) that SLE uses (not likely).
Barring one of the above, clearly this would be beneficial from an operational point of view for the SLE. I would image the cost of running electric loco's in all electric territory would be much cheaper than using ancient and decrepit engines that their running now – unless of course AEM-7's are in no better shape, and any used locos that could be acquired from anywhere fare no better. In any case, these would be a better solution (that is until we can get some M-8s' or remanufactured M-4's out here).
In addition, I think the cars that the CDOT is getting from VRE should be kept for future use on the Springfield line, providing they still work by them. That will save having to buy new coaches for the line, when and if it opens.
The Waterbury Branch: DMUs. Since the operating cost on this branch is so high, and considering that they only run a few cars, wouldn't it be much more cost effective to run DMUs than running a locomotive. As much as I hate those Colorado Rail Cars (the damn things look like buses on rails), they'd work fine. You'd only need one per consist and have it haul a regular coach, as I've seen. But let me guess, no $$$ to invest in new equipment, even if it (might) save money in the long run.
Just don't paint 'em in ugly McGinnis NH scheme . . . doing the P32AC-DMs up like that was just going too far . . .
It would be a great flexibility solution if a loco was around that could run on third rail and catenary, but as far as I know none exist -- to design one would cost lots of money and time that defeats the quick fix (especially since Conn DOT is getting some coaches from VRE) -- time and money that's more efficiently spent getting the M-8's rolling.
LOL! I think if they do get any kind of locos CDOT just can't resist putting their calling card on it. :)
Yup, that's why I invoked the New Haven RR's old EP-series (EP-4, EP-5) because such locomotives used to exist. They still ought to, just for flexibility's sake.
The HHP-8's did not replace any AEM-7's, they replaced the E-60's.
There are no spare electrics anywhere.
2. ConnDOT doesn't have the $$$ purchase new or used equipment (or more precisely Mr. Rowland won't shell out the bucks).
This is also true, electrics are more expensive than rebuilt geeps.
Here are some other reasons.
SLE runs 3 car sets, you don't need a 7000-8000hp locomotive to haul three coaches. An electric would be overkill. NJT and MARC use electrics because they haul 6-10 car trains that may contain bi-levels.
Electric locos would require specialized maintainence that CDoT would need to build as the nearest existing facility is in Boston.
That's because nobody rebuilds old electrics, and thanks to the "business" being just about all-diesel, electrics get scrapped too rapidly while diesels get rebuild after rebuild. Too bad all of the E40s (former EP-5s) are gone, eh . . . ?
SLE runs 3 car sets, you don't need a 7000-8000hp locomotive to haul three coaches
Guess you haven't seen some of what's been running out of Hoboken a few months ago. ALP-44 with three Comets on Gladstone local; accelerates like a bullet. Rest assured, having the same on SLE would not hurt one bit and would save lots in fuel costs, not to mention generating some extra voltage on the SLE's power grid.
Electric locos would require specialized maintainence that CDoT would need to build as the nearest existing facility is in Boston
There's also Metro-North with their EMUs. Motors could go to their facility if they could work out something with them. No sense in sending it to Amtrak's facilities in Boston or NYC if not necessary.
Here's the SLE eastbound schedule and as you can see, the max transfer time at Union Station in New Haven is 10 minutes max. Not a big hardship and not enough to justify the run to Stamford. How many people are riding to Stamford as a destination from points east of NH anyway? (I'm asking for real, not being a wise guy).
As for more politics, ConnDOT is mostly highway focused (ConnDOT means Conn Drops Only Tar). Rowland? His pet project is completing Route 11 from Salem to Waterford/East Lyme (which will probably never be built, so say some insiders). Not to mention the Q Bridge replacement project in New Haven which is slated for notice to proceed with construction in Oct 2005. Money for SLE is going to be hard to find.
As for the MN run to Waterbury, I like the idea of DMU's running up and back (because I'm a railfan) but we could probably run it with a couple of Budd SPV's. I have no idea what the ridership is and rumor has it that the midday bus replacement is working...
If you want new trains, focus on the MN NH mainline.
Your pal,
Fred
you have to look at your customers. A more comfortable train my entice higher ridership.
I think it's speed that would draw everyone out of their cars; if one could ride the rails from New London to New Haven in 20 minutes v. the one hour drive, half the cars would be parked at stations (or not, see below). That's going to take more than some spiffy new locomotives and classy passenger cars.
I've sat in traffic on the morning I-95 and Merrit Parkway commutes between Bridgeport and Stamford; I can't see any luxury in stop and go highway travel.
My theory is that we're a nation of loners and value our 'alone time' to the point where we don't want to share in a communal experience like a train commute to work, or sit with 'other people' in a restaurant. I don't think a fancy train is going to break that mindset. My dos pesos...
Your pal,
Fred
I agree, but for the fact that riding on a commuter train pretty much is "alone time," if that's what you seek. You may be riding in close physical proximity to other people but need not interact with them in any way. A tape or CD player with earphones cuts off most sound. Come to think of it, time spent riding on a commuter train is much more useful than time spent driving, as you can read, sleep, work with your computer, watch DVD's, etc. When you drive you have to concentrate on the road.
Your pal,
Fred
you have to look at your customers. A more comfortable train my entice higher ridership.
The discussion was about Shore Line East. Those folks are not typically luxury car drivers. They're people who can't afford a house in Fairfield County.
Right, so they live in the low rent areas like Essex and Old Lyme. This may surprise you, but Fairfield County isn't part of CT ;-P
Your pal,
Fred
Os! It *is* in the Land of Oz!
Which is another *good* reason to consider my plans of CLOSING the Manhattan CBD to Automobiles. This is waht will cause a ripple effect up and down the 15 county area, putting the focus back on commuter rail traffic.
It keeps the City pedestrian / people friendly
It protects the environment from excess polution
It protects the land from excess highway construction
It allows society to become a "people" again, rahter than a bunch of "gimmies"!
Elias
Ach, why would you want to change all that? Next thing you know you'll want communities with the porch on the FRONT of the house, so you have to say 'hi' to your neighbors when they walk by.
Nah, I say keep it the way it is. You turn right on the off ramp, unwind from your road rage, drive down your street, hit the garage door button, drive in, hit the button again, go inside, mix yourself a drink, sit on your porch on the BACK of your house with fenced in yard and contemplate which Disney film you'll watch this evening.
Your jaded pal,
Fred
But a few years ago the Conn. taxpayers made a big mistake and now they're paying the price, and the gov. is a dead duck. Rail is so far back on his burners that he might as well fly everyone to NYC by kites. They did speed up the first order, and once they get the Stamford-to-NYC order full, they'll put more trains on the NH routes, and they WILL be full.
http://www.coloradorailcar.com/dmupages/dmusing.html
Your pal,
Fred
Through the door.
See Chuchubob's post. CRC DMUs have trapdoors. Most likely they will not have the inset doors shown in that computer drawing, but the sliding doors as the current CRC DMU prototype has.
STPNY: Where Transit Comes Alive
Yes, and no. CDOT *contracts* with MN to run their trains. This is a leftover arrangement from the PennCentral days... However, CDOT is free to contract with any provider they like. But MN does make the most sense, and apparently, they have no problems with the services provided.
Elias
If CDOT didn't contract with MNRR to operate the Stamford locals (which are a significant portion of trains, especially midday and weekends), they would become Port Chester locals. This would force CDOT to run pure CT trains to serve Greenwich, slowing down service for the Stamford-and-beyond crowd.
So MNRR offers a service that no other provider can offer: cost sharing of the trains serving Greenwich and Stamford.
In addition, many Westchester and Bronx residents work in Stamford. These are best served by MNRR trains that serve both NY and CT stations. CT business interests would be badly served if these trains terminated in Port Chester.
And back :P
Your pal,
Fred
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
Zach
D to Brighton Beach and now Q/F to Coney Island!!!
I don't think I've seen that posted before. I've always hoped one would go online for Boston's South Station. Penn Station would be pretty neat too.
Darnit... I could stare at that thing for hours.
Also image #2705 is noted as being at 210th St.
This image depicts the high level decked structure at Mosholu Pkwy, which is between 200th St and 204th St. Image #7168 looking north shows the approach to this part of the structure.
Do you have any idea to where I +might+ beable to get photos of those stations?
I found 1 photo in my collection, but its not at a good enough angle to even tell theres a station there.
What we have not realized is that David said the GO starts at 10p, but in fact the GO is not suppose to start until 12am.
So we did some RFing on the Franklin Ave Shuttle before heading over to Prospect Park for the M, we saw 2 empty M trains signed Metropolitan Ave / Prospect Park went down South on the Q track.
So it was 11:30, the M still havn't showed up, so David left, then followed by Lincoln.
Here's the fun part: 5 minutes later, BOOM the M train entered Prosp. Pk via Northbound Q track!
Newkirk Plaza David and Lincoln I hope you both had a great time heading home pissed :p
Ok no more talking...pictures:
And here's the video, Sorry for the shake, I don't shoot videos well
If you see bandwidth exceeded, wait for a while then try again
Enjoy,
Note to Lincoin: When I told you to stay, you should have, the next train was the M.
Note to David: You(Leader) cannot abandon his troops(us). (J/K)
It was a fun night, although it didn't go as according to plan.
I can't wait for Stillwell's reopening next weekend.
I stated explicitly that I don't shoot good videos, who told you to focus on crotch and not the rf window ???
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
M rollsign
Interior of 4556. Taken @ Prospect Park
Let me know what y'all think and enjoy.
Anyway I was out on Sunday afternoon and here are my pictures of the M and Q trains at Parkside and Prospect Park.
It wasn't until 11 last night that I heard a news report on the radio, that placed this incident into a larger, more horrible, set of circumstances.
Many people on the station were extremely active in getting the man help. I was happy that nothing horrible happened there.
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/20952.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/15/nyregion/15stab.html
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/crime/nyc-spree0515,0,6669737.story?coll=nyc-homepage-headlines
Where is there something HAPPY in this?
It's happy because the man who was pushed onto the tracks didn't end up as a 12-9.
The perp's a winner - he killed his Grandmother and assaulted a couple other people in his Brooklyn neighborhood.
wayne
I've posted some close-ups of the Times Square and DeKalb Ave representations on his map. Being able to follow the individual lines as they pass or bypass the stations is neat.
I've also got a shot of a neighborhood called "Futurama" near Flatlands in Brooklyn. That was a puzzle.
http://community.webtv.net/R9Blues/SomeMoreDetailof
http://community.webtv.net/hey-paul/FullShotofMap
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
the
AEM7 (and other trains like it)
APL46
HHP8
Chuck
You mean this?
How about the EP-4? That used to run on the Northeast Corridor too. Call it a GG-1 with clearer forward view . . .
Honorable mention to the late E-60. Although not in regular Amtrak service (last one left Amtrak property 1/2004), they had a whooping 10,000 horsepower under the hood-more than the AEM7's 7000, Acela Express's 6000 or HHP-8's 8000!
Here's where I got my numbers:
http://www.sonic.net/~mly/Caltrain-Electrification/2000-08-Rolling-Stock-Draft/a7.pdf
The E-60 had 6000 HP, and that was assuming it worked right, which they generally didn't. And they were a really stupid design under the hood, too.
On a side note, I'd say the massive GM10B 10000hp EMD/ASEA electric loco from the 1970s is my favorite retired electric ever to grace the NEC tracks, even if it only did so for a year or so.
I hadn't seen that one before. Look at the size of those trucks. B-B-B configuration, those motors must be enormous.
Betcha all of New Jersey dimmed when that sucker started up!
: ) Elias
You sure you got that right? I haven't heard about AEM-7s being upgraded to Tier II. Tier I and grandfathered AEM-7s would be restricted to 125 mph.
Regards,
Jimmy
I wasn't aware that NEC *made* locomotives.
I thought they made computers and electonics.
Of course a lot of those Japanese companies are into many diverse areas, so...
BTW, Mitsubishi was a former zaibitsu, those who are familiar with early 20th century Japan.
Wealthy industrialists who ran the puppet strings attached to the emperor and the government. The real motive power behind Japan's pre-WWII build-up and entry into the war.
Greater South-east Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere.
Or read Tom Clancy's "Debt of Honor" for a ficional account of "modern" zaibitsu. They *are* still around, but *I* do not know if they throw as much power behind the government.
And then what about our own domestic zaibitsu?
Elias
Mitsui, Mitsubishi and Sumitomo were the Big 3.
Industries all gather for a retreat on Fuji where consensus is made between various manufacturers as to who builds what, who provides subassemblies to the others and how the market is divided up among the participants. This in turn assures that factory capacity is used efficiently and the various companies sort out what gets built, who does it and how the final products all come together for each of the participants. I got to observe one of these once and it was quite fascinating. HERE, they call it "collusion." Heh.
But it is QUITE interesting to see so-called "competitors" divvying up the turf so graciously.
This is not to say NEC doesn't make trains, that is something I cannot say either way. But it in this context, NEC refers to Northeast Corridor.
: ) I knew that!
I wanted to pull some fun on him.
Worked too! Some intersting albeit vering off topic stuff.
Elias
And no, there was no 76th St. station in this dream.
Then there's a dream of a prewar train rolling down a street with no track! Made for one helluva bumpy ride.:)
The East London Line and formerly the Northern City Line.
wayne
It is the only example of a commuter rail line with a deep level underground terminus (at Moorgate in the "City").
There is another commuter rail terminus at Moorgate, currently operated by Thameslink, but it's at sub-surface level.
Make that West Anglia. They may happen to be Episcopalians, but one should never presume in a modern society ;-)
Actually the Victoria Line, and in fact only one platform was used for it, as the other was used by a diverted Piccadilly Line tunnel so as to provide same-level interchange (the Piccadilly line platform thus vacated became the other Victoria Line platform).
http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/
http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/
Thank you to all who take the time to answer.
This must have been a last minuate change as signs were posted that they will be no trains between Myrtle Ave and 8th Ave.
Thank You
:)
Anybody know when the next tour is? Or if he accepts onthespot show ups?
1)Every time I click on a post or response, it opens a new window. (I use the compressed view, btw). How do you keep this from happening?(With Internet Explorer 6)
2)Everyday, when I go on SubTalk, all the links are 'fresh'. What I mean by that, is when you click on a link, it turns purple. All links are blue. When I click on a post, or any of the responses, the links that I click turn purple, instead of blue. BUT, heres the issue. For some strange reason, every one in a while, all of the links return to blue. This is annoying, because I lose track of what I already looked at and whats new. Is this cookie related?
3)I cant seem to open PDFs in my browser (IE) anymore. I used to be able to view them like web pages, but now, it tries to download them to my PC. I use something called Download Acelerator Plus (DAP) and I deleted it just to see if that would work and now, it doesnt work at ALL! I cant view PDF's anymore. Please help.
Here is just some info: I have an Emachines Windows XP PC with AOL 8.0 & Internet Explorer 6.0.2800.
And I would not like to try another browser like Mozilla or Opera. I just want to see if anyone could help me fix this first. Thank you.
-Chris
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Nothing to do with subtalk. It doesn't tell your browser to do that.
2)Everyday, when I go on SubTalk, all the links are 'fresh'.
Nothing to do with subtalk. Check your "visited links" preferences or whatever the hell IE calls it.
3)I cant seem to open PDFs in my browser (IE) anymore.
Definitely nothing to do with subtalk.
This should not be happeni. Are you holding shift while clicking?
2)Everyday, when I go on SubTalk, all the links are 'fresh'. What I mean by that, is when you click on a link, it turns purple. All links are blue. When I click on a post, or any of the responses, the links that I click turn purple, instead of blue. BUT, heres the issue. For some strange reason, every one in a while, all of the links return to blue. This is annoying, because I lose track of what I already looked at and whats new. Is this cookie related?
No, it is not cookie related. Open your Internet Options from the Tools menu, and under history, increase the number of days to keep pages in history.
3)I cant seem to open PDFs in my browser (IE) anymore. I used to be able to view them like web pages, but now, it tries to download them to my PC. I use something called Download Acelerator Plus (DAP) and I deleted it just to see if that would work and now, it doesnt work at ALL! I cant view PDF's anymore. Please help.
Reinstall Acrobat.
-Chris
Does this happen when you visit other websites too?
It could be that you have your copy of IE set to open everyting in a new window.
For some strange reason, every one in a while, all of the links return to blue. This is annoying, because I lose track of what I already looked at and whats new. Is this cookie related?
Links are remembered as part of your browser's history, Click on Tools... Internet Options... or whatever they call it, and check to see what is set up, and re-set how long you want your history saved.
I use something called Download Acelerator Plus (DAP) and I deleted it just to see if that would work and now, it doesnt work at ALL!
OH NO! You FOOL! Don't add that crap or any crap like it to your computer! (Sheesh!)
You have loaded trojan-packed spyware onto your computer, and it has taken control of all of your settings. Before you know it you will end up on Xupiter or some alien place like that!
Only Uncle Selkirk can help you now. You will need to install his BoClean product, or some other similar product to klean all the krap off of your machine! But I'll let Kevin give you *that* lecture.
: ) Elias
M train headed towards Kings Highway
M at Parkside
M at Prospect Park
During the afternoon on Friday I was volunteering at the New York Manhattan Temple open house. After I was done there, I went into the subway. I took the 1 to the D to the Downtown 6. I got to Chambers abound 10:20. While waiting there a work train passed by northbound. After 3 J trains passed by, I saw a train of R42's roll past with the end signs saying, "Not In Service," but the side signs had (M) Metropolitan Av|Prospect Park. I went up to the IRT platform and caught a "#4 church" as one guy handing out religious paraphernalia and took it to Atlantic Avenue, where I went to the (Q) platform.
While I was waiting for the (Q) train, I saw the SAME train I saw at Chambers Street pass by (first pic in the first post in the thread). After finally catching a Q train, I started to ride south. At Parkside Avenue, I didn't see any trains, so I continued south. By the time the train got to Avenue J, I saw that same train ride up the Brighton Express. I continued south on the Q and saw a northbound Q approaching Avenue M I get off the southbound Q in a futile attempt to catch the northbound Q. (Should have got off at Avenue J.) I wait a while in the fog before the next northbound Q arrives. As that Q train was approaching Avenue H, I see running alongside us on the express track...a B train! It must have been going to Concourse Yard, as there was no one aboard the train.
At Parkside Avenue, I see what I've been waiting for. An M train laid up on the southbound express track. (pics 2 through 6).
I get on another southbound Q and take it to Prospect Park, where I catch that M train (pics 7 & 8). I take the M train to Canal Street where I catch a northbound 4, taking that to Grand Central for the 7, which I take home.
BTW, if you can't access the page, try again tomorrow.
spend some $$$ and get a real web host.
Not everybody is rich. The guy is nice enough to do something he doesen't have to do AT ALL and all you are capable of are snide, condescending remarks. Blair is right abnout you, Clownboy.
Peace,
ANDEE
He should ask someone to host the rollsign page for him. I'd do it.
Well, I'm announcing it now.
There was actually an addition to that strip map which contained the Rockaway Park section, but no lights on it.
-Julian
I still think your rollsign page is interesting, so I hereby offer to host it for you.
I need to know what that is doing there, etc.
HAIL to the RiverLINE. That... whatever it is, it's a damn good trip. A bit too long, but very scenic and somewhat speedy.
So, to start off, Route 108 was actually USEFUL for once... Normally, that bus runs so erratically, I usually end up missing out on the Market-Frankford Line leg of my journeys because I hoof it to the 13 (or vie for the R3 on weekends), which is about 3/4 mile away. But I made it to 69th Street and had a chat with my friends in the Information Office...
Oddly enough, until about 2:30 PM, people getting off the MFL were coming up through the turnstile entry/exitway, instead of the stairs from the sidewall platform. No mention of any switch disabilities or stuck trains. Onto the train, and off I go.
WAY too much shaking on those M4s lately... we cruise over the switch west of 52nd Street, I feel like I'm going to hit the wall... might just be my position at the rear of the lead car... I'm usually in the railfan's chair, but somebody stole my spot! Oh well.. we're treated to more homogonization near 40th Street and 30th Street, but not at 15th Street... odd. Slower run than recently between 40th and 34th Street. Until about the middle of 2002, trains cruised pretty slowly betwene there, but have been showing similar speeds to the corridor from 15th to 13th Street in recent years. Today, we went at about the same speed the train reverts to eastbound after vaulting over 49th Street... roughly the same speed as between Millbourne and anything else. Got off at 15th Street, because I was going to initially head to Fern Rock.
But... the northbound had just left, so bump it! I hoofed it (underground) to 1234 Market Street to peruse the June Railpace... but it's not there yet. So it was into the Gallery for me, figuring the day of railfanning would just be a normal day.
Nah... I headed to 8th Street, figuring I'd get the Spur, but something pulled me to board the PATCO. I hadn't been to Lindenwold in a while, maybe that was it. ut upon boarding that train, something else pulled me to exit at Broadway. WITHOUT going to Lindenwold first.
So off at Broadway for me. By the way, Franklin Square now has sodium lamps, and City Hall is apparently open on weekends. Yikes. Anyway, a Broadway, I figured I'd catch a RiverLINE, but just missed a southbound. As I was attempting to hoof it to follow the tracks, the northbound came by, and I had to get out of there. So, I walked back up to the platform, and let the train pass... I was at 5th Street when it showed up, and didn't make it back to the platform at WRTC in time. So bought a ticket and milled about for 1/2 hour. Apparently, the 419 and 408 now board inside the Walter Rand Transportation Center's Greyhound Terminal-esque gates. Why? Moreso, why the 408 and not the 401, 402, 410, or 412, which all run pretty much the same way. The 318 and Jersey Shore routes, I understand... even the 409 to a lesser extent. The 419 doesn't belong there at all.
Anyways, that strikes me as weird, and it was HOT, so my brain was a little fried. I almost forgot to validate my ticket before getting on the train. Lucky I did, there was conflict later.
The RiverLINE's cars rock! The cars are low-floor, and there is a raised area at the ends... full-length cab, but transparent window behind it, with backward AND forward-facing seats on both sides... so you get a good railfan window, and I luckily got mine! The station-by-station is as follows (mind you, they all LOOK the same):
Walter Rand Transportation Center: Modern-looking, with an exit directly leading to the PATCO platform (via fare control, of course). Actually, that's sor of the only exit; you must walk through the building (or alongside it after hours) to reach Broadway and the main building. BTW, the whole trip through, I didn't see the 403 ONCE in Jersey, but saw it in Philadelphia... weird. There's an "X" crossover immediately south of the platforms, and a trailing point switch north of the station, across Broadway (near the bus entrance to the building)
36th Street: Close to the RiverLINE yard and shops, sets back from the main streets, with 36th Street running overhead south of the station itself. (I think River Road also crosses here) Island platform, and a good distance from any other stations. Line goes to single track north of here, travelling through Conrail's yards.
Pennsauken/Rt 73: Line returns to double track for this one. Sidewall, IIRC. Sits back from Rt 73, near the foot of the Tacony-Palmyra Bridge.
Palmyra: Single track operations down the middle of Broad Street. Otherwise, nothing special.
Riverton: Palmyra revisited. Short distance from Palmyra; trains only take a minute between departures.
Cinnaminson: Another Palmyra clone.
Riverside: Somewhere, the double track returns, and we are treated to this station's presence. The old Riverside station sits across the street, now serving as the "Thrift Depot" for Zurbrugg Memorial Hospital (ZMH), most likely the Rancocas Valley Division
Delanco: Similar to Riverside. The bridge between the stations vaults Rancocas Creek, and reminds me a lot of the Twin Bridges on the Market-Frankford Line (where the line vaults both Lehigh Avenue and the Conrail tracks to Port Richmond Yard). The area around here is very nice. Twin platforms here.
Beverly/Edgewater Park: More single tracking. For some reason, the platforms always allow northbound trains to open the right side doors.
Burlington South: Being close to Rt 413 has its advantages. The park & Ride here is the smallest of those at stations with "Park & Ride" in their name (which is omitted from the station signage), but larger than most. The lot here wasn't really that full, but it was going on 5:00 anyway. I imagine this one draws in a lot of people from Bristol that work in NJ moreso than the stop in Pennsauken would draw in Philly residents working in NJ.
Burlington Towne Centre: I figured this one was near a plaza or something, but it turns out the stop sits at Broad & High Streets, where trips on the 409 terminating in Burlington, and the 413 and 419 turn back. In fact, the 413 was laying over just north of High Street. There's a Conrail facility north of here.
Florence: The largest P/R of them all, but another empty sight. Dual side platforms, and sits just off US 130. I think I saw this one before the line opened, heading towards the NJ Turnpike heading back to Pennsylvania. In fact, it sits not too far from the Pennsylvania-New Jersey Turnpike Bridge, which has an interchange at US 130. The purpose of this is probably to draw riders from points north working in Camden or Philly. In Philly's case, the R7 probably makes a better means of travel, but getting to Trenton involves deviating down I-195. This stop just requires a jump to the PA Turnpike connector, and an exit at US 130.
Roebling: This one's in a watery area. The line snakes through the swamp north of here.
Bordentown: The single track returns, and the stop is made, overlooking a small marina. The Bordentown Yacht Club is close by, north of the stop. Very sharp curves on either side of the station. The freight track runs north, while the RiverLINE going north curves west to reach this stop.
Cass Street: A long way from Bordentown, this stop is. Sidewalls. The line south of here runs alongside NJ 29 and I-195 before ducking under I-295 (near the interchange between the highways) and disappearing into the woods.
Hamilton Avenue: Same as Cass Street, just 1/2 mile away. There is a trainshed nearby for RiverLINE cars, apparently those out of service in Trenton are stored here.
Trenton: After a crossover and some steep grade changes and sharp curves, the station is reached. Sidewall platforms and stub-end tracks. Sits across Clinton Avenue from the Amtrak/NJT/SEPTA terminal.
Anyway, the southbound I missed in Camden was my northbound ride. I snagged the inagural timetable for this line and... apparently, the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail has timetables and they're available in Trenton. And the sign at the NJT ticket window now has black tape over SEPTA's name... they never sold tickets there; why was their name added when NJT rehabbed the signs?
M RiverLINE ride southbound had some problem or another... at curves, it sounded as if something was being pulled. The last numbers of th car were "16", so there's some clue... I left in WRTC to go home, so I still haven't seen the other three Camden stops.
Oh... and on the way back on PATCO, we got slightly delayed in Broadway. Somehow, a train caught fire at 9th-10th & Locust, and our train had to turn back at 8th & Market. Rather than cross over there upon leaving, he left back to Lindenwold entirely on the westbound track, probably crossing over at City Hall. which, If I didn't mention already, is NOW OPEN WEEKENDS.
Chuck Greene
Oddly enough, until about 2:30 PM, people getting off the MFL were coming up through the turnstile entry/exitway, instead of the stairs from the sidewall platform. No mention of any switch disabilities or stuck trains.
We entered 69th Street Terminal on track 2 on a train that was packed when we got on at 30th Street. It went back out to Frankford as soon as it emptied and the motorperson got into the cab at the east end of the train. The next train entered the Terminal on the normal passenger discharge track.
36th Street running overhead south of the station itself. (I think River Road also crosses here)
36th Street bridge just south of the station
River Road bridge just north of the station
Palmyra: Single track operations down the middle of Broad Street. Otherwise, nothing special.
Actually, in Palmyra and a couple other towns, the track runs between East Broad and West Broad. In Burlington it runs down the middle of Broad Street.
BTW, I noticed St Mary's church (Episcopal) when Deaks and I rode the River LINE through Burlington on Friday. The original building was built in 1703.
Delanco: Similar to Riverside. The bridge between the stations vaults Rancocas Creek
The bridge has an interesting history. (Presumably to cut costs) the bridge was floated on a barge that wasn't large enough for its assigned task, and the bridge wound up in Rancocas Creek. It was eventually rescued, put in place, and repaired.
Roebling: This one's in a watery area. The line snakes through the swamp north of here.
Roebling was the company town built by John Roebling to house the men who worked in his steel factory, and their families. Many Subtalkers know John Roebling as the engineer who built the Brooklyn Bridge.
wayne
I shall have to look at that more closely. I did not think that there was a wall.
The Canal Street trains used to run on the NORTH side of the bridge, and the Centre Street Trains used to run on the SOUTH side of the bridge.
Now the Northside takes off into that Christie thing, and the Southside tracks must jog to the right so that the trains can access the platform that used to align with the northside tracks.
Obviously if you were riding the (D) or the (B) you would never see wher the Centre street track turned off, but since I always rode the (Q) train (well the (QB) train back in *those* days) I thought I recalled that the tunnel to the left, to Centre Street, was still opened albeit with out rails on it.
Leaving the rails on it would have been no big thing, since nothing would have had to cross anything (since it would not have been used for scheduled traffic, but only yard or flex moves.) Also leaving a connection from the north track to Canal Street Station would not have been a big deal IF norhing was SCHEDULED to make that move. It would have made a splendid flex in the event of a problem on the bridge.
Anyway, unless somebody contradicts me, look again, and see if you can find were that old trackway was.
Elias
Actually, The Center Street Tracks never really "split off to the left." They kinda went straight (for a ways). The fact is that now, the (Q)/(N) tracks jog to the right to put themselves onto the Canal Street Tracks.
Yes the Center Street Tracks had to turn Left *somewhere* but it need not have been in proxymity the Christie Diverge, and the Jog to the Canal Street Tracks.
But it has been a long time since I went over the bridge in a train with a RFW, so I don't know for sure.
Elias
-Chris
The other side of What?
From Center Street? When you leave the Chambers Street station look for some unused tracks, they will probably be going UP, not right when you loose sight of them.
Elias
The picture was taken from the North side tracks as they curve toward Grand St. I was wondering whether the former alignment into Canal St/Broadway could be seen from the Canal St end looking out toward the Manny B (hopefully would have better lighting).
Tony
I just got back from riding the M and R GO's.
I got tons of pictures and other things to share later tonight on SubwaySpot.com!
In the meantime here's a teaser:
Your pal,
Fred
til next time
Hello friends,
Due to a lack of response, FPT is forced to cancel the planned motor coach trip to the PA and Rockhill Trolley museums in June. We have been advertising the trip since January and only had 13 reservations;we need a minimum of 23 to cover the cost of the coach. Deposits for the bus company, and the 2 motels were due on 5/15, and we could not afford to lose the deposit money with such poor response.
Your deposits will returned by mail late this week. Thanks for you support of FPT events.
Harry Donahue
Chuck Greene
I just thought the new thread title would attact more viewers.
Please come back, Thirty-Third St.!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
My Latest Rider Diaries Postings
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Subtalkers: any ideas?
wayne
-Chris
P.S.: Acknowledge that this was done against my will. I dislike the R62/As.
ACKNOWLEDGE THE DETERMINATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;-D
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Y'all accept my apology?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
The problem with the R32/R32A-R68A cars, IMO, is that they seem to lack color. The R32/R32As-R42s also have those horrible looking interiors. The R32s/R32As-R46s originally looked good but were rebuilt colorless, IMO. The R40s, R40Ms, and R42s also received pathetically small side door windows, R40Ms and R42s received smaller railfan windows. Then the R62s-R68As had no color when they were built.
Not counting the NTTTs, the R142s, R142As, and R143s are the first cars to have exterior colors since the unrebuilt R46s.
That is my honest and grim opinion. I apologize if any of you were hurt by it, but that's just what I think.
Just a bit before the newer cars (R142s/R142As/R143s) came along, the redbirds stood out from the rest of the MTA fleet. Why? Because they had exterior color. Sure, they got the ugly rebuilt interiors, but at least they had exterior color even after being rebuilt!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
Now that TFL calls them all "TUBE" , how do we distinguish between Tube and Surface Lines ? Even those titles are misleading- Tube Lines run on the surface and Surface Lines run Underground just as the former London's Underground also ran mostly 'Overground'.
Any comments?
Or in a cutting. Or in a covered cutting. In fact, some lines don't have much else.
No steel Els.
I wonder why els really didn't take off in the UK. The only one I can think of that was ever built was the Liverpool Overhead Railway ("the Dockers' Umbrella"). The Glasgow Central Railway was originally planned as an El until the Caledonian Railway took over and decided to cut-and-cover it instead.
Could you imagine an 'El' along Oxford Street? It would be possible to cross the street by climbing out of a window onto the struture and climbing off on the other side.
PS: It has nice views.
Me: Nevertheless, the bird's-eye view is one of the things that makes the H&C my favourite line. First you run above Shepherds Bush market, looking down on the stalls and customers, then you fly right over the BBC TV HQ (without a station to serve the thousands who work there!). And all on the one of the most historic sections of the system.
Another nice elevated section is the line from Earls Court to Wimbledon on the District Line - it's not all elevated, but through Putney Bridge station, the bridge over the Thames, and then on to East Putney is particularly attractive.
Max: The best scenery has to be the Chesham shuttle, especially where it winds round the side of the hill, with a steep drop down one side.
Me: I've never ridden the Chesham line, but a rural fastness is hardly a typical subway/metro/tube experience, is it? The Central Line between Debden and Epping, through Theydon Bois, is another attractive rural run.
When I took the Central Line to Epping, I was most surprised to see a couple of sheep farms along the way.
Ouch! My aching wallet! I bought one last year and I swore I'd risk the £10 penalty fare next time (since I never needed to exit the system up there). That's one hideously expensive farecard!
I did need zones 1-6 a few days, though. Are Oyster cards now available for weekly passes or for pay-as-you-go?
Incidentally, I'll be in London again this summer for 4 weeks in August if any Subtalkers are interested in getting together for a pint or several :-)
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming soon...maybe
After 0930 and Weekends are a seriously good idea with that one...
Actually, if Red Ken gets his way on the railways, Zones A-D may well become a thing of the past. The idea would be to have zones 7, 8, and 9 covering out to the suburban termini (in this case, Aylesbury). This has the significant advantage of being able to buy travelcards to BR stations just beyond Zone 6 from the London end. Hopefully it'll make it cheaper too...
I did need zones 1-6 a few days, though. Are Oyster cards now available for weekly passes or for pay-as-you-go?
AIUI, both. However, capping has not begun yet, so beware if you're using pay-as-you-go! Once capping comes in, you could do something like this:
Ride 1st bus/tram: 70p
Ride 2nd bus/tram: 70p
Ride 3rd bus/tram: 70p
Ride 4th bus/tram: 40p (£2.50 One Day Bus Pass)
Ride Tube within zone 1: £1.60
Ride Tube again within zone 1: 20p (£4.30 ODTC Z12)
Ride Tube out to zone 6: £1.10 (£5.40 ODTC Z1-6)
Incidentally, I'll be in London again this summer for 4 weeks in August if any Subtalkers are interested in getting together for a pint or several :-)
Sounds a good idea - I should be vaguely around for half of August (the other half of August, I'll be on a dig near Northampton).
Let us UK subtalkers know your dates and we'll try to organise a London subtalkers railfanning trip - by then it'll be about nine months since our last one.
Let us UK subtalkers know your dates and we'll try to organise a London subtalkers railfanning trip - by then it'll be about nine months since our last one.
Surely. As it stands now, I expect to arrive on or about the 29th of July and leave around the 26th of August, give or take a day. I don't know what period of time in there is going to be devoted to railfanning, as my wife will be with me for 7-10 days or so of that total, which will include a 3-day side-trip to Paris. I'll let the group know as the dates approach, but I would expect to be railfanning hot and heavy earlier in that time frame, not later.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming soon...maybe
When I rode the Chesham Shuttle last August, I swore I saw Hobbits not too far from the right of way. Looked somewhat Shire-ish!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming soon...maybe
Not ALLthat long ago railfans (and, I think, Operators) referred to them as SURFACE or TUBE lines and stock.
On a message board like this we have people joining in a discussion (I'm one of them ! ) whose main source of information is sometimes a map of the system. We should try if possible to make our replies as simple and informative as possible. :-)
Yes but how much prior knowledge should you assume? Most posters here know New York, and quite a few know other systems including London. But it seems a good idea to try and make posts accessible to those who don't know London well.
As someone said, the word "tube" is commonly used to refer to the entire London Underground. If you ask for directions to the nearest tube station, you should not be surprised to find yourself at a sub-surface station. The difference is important to us rail fans, so on this board we should distinguish by some means, such as "tube" lines and "sub-surface" lines. This ignores the fact that both types of line come to the surface in the outer areas, but we cannot introduce entirely new terminology.
The word "Metro" has been misappropriated in an attempt to promote suburban commuter rail to off-peak riders. Let it be clear that the so-called Metro is only a new name for pre-existing commuter rail services having at least four trains per hour.
No , I only used that term to get them in ! I am not sugesting it as a new title. :-) :-)
Should not we ,though, make it as easy as we can for new posters to join in the discussions by making them , if possible, easier to understand ? True we get the occasional (what we might think ) 'stupid' questions-I've asked some myself- but this is one way to enter the talks.
I meant that the railways and their political masters have misappropriated the term "Metro".
Should not we ,though, make it as easy as we can for new posters to join in the discussions
I think so, and the same should go for any other city. I even ask dumb questions about NYC and nobody seems to mind.
I will not comment again but wil read futher replies with interest !
So has the corporate world misapropriated "Metro" as seen of the changing of Metrorail.net to UrbanRail.net
From the FAQ of Urbanrail.net
Why has the website changed its name?
- Because the world's fifth largest retailer based in Germany claimed that the former name would infringe their registered trademark and we didn't have the financial resources to sort this out in court.
It would be interesting to canvass Londoners by experience. Would people who commute by Northern Line every day be more likely to call the system "Tube" than people who commute by Metropolitan Line?
Of course, we must also ask how much of the NY Subway is really sub way.
The names are misleading, but at least they don't have the toe-curlingness of today's brand neames. A few years ago our electricity supplier changed its name from "Eastern Electicity" to "TXU Energi". Not only does the deliberate spelling mistake make me twitch, but no one at the company was able to tell me what "TXU" meant.
Can you imagine the brand name that marketers would come up with today for an urban rail network?
rAPIDrAIL
THROOTRIAN
Yuk
The underground/subway/metro network in Singapore is known as MRT, Mass rapid Transit. It operates by Singapore MRT Ple Ltd for most of the lines and SBS Transit for the new line. The MTR Coperation has no relations with those company. The Chinese name refers it as Rapid Transit though.
here
As to why London doesn't have steel els running above streets - look at the width of London's streets and the answer is obvious. There isn't enough room! The brick viaducts run parallel to main streets sometimes (e.g. the Piccadilly/District Lines west of Hammersmith) but not over the top of them.
It then dawned on me that to get to the Bellmont Stakes I could take the Doggle to connect to NJT to connect with a special LIAR race train and by gum it if that dosen't sound like a Bona Fide railfan trip. So, are there any other Phillyfans who would care to join me? Chuchubob I am looking at you. Transit Chuck,might you be peeled away from the Rt 15 for a say or two?
Eh, they'll just boo him if he doesn't finish in 1st place.
Chuck Greene
Too gentile for you Philly fanatics? LOL.
Enjoy!
Click on the R-42 to enter:
Also, new R-32 and 62a pics, plus more in a little while...
til next time
til next time
Hey, Joe, I know you have posted photos before on SubTalk. Were they disposables or digital?
til next time
I have also made 2 versions, one for those with Broadband and those with 56k modems:
wmv 364kb
wmv 9MB
Try harder next time.
Good thing no one at the TA has been to Chicago's O'Hare airport--at the end of some walkways a recording says something similar to "The moving walkway is ending. Please look down." People need to take some responsiblity for themselves.
Matt
In London it's stand on right of escalators, walk to the left in corridors. Sounds crazy until you realise that slow-mos go down the middle whilst people legging it stay to the side.
Your pal,
Fred
Of course, the IRONY meter is clanging both ends of the scale here - it's OK to take pictures of military aircraft, including the flight controls. Meanwhile, people get "interrogated" for taking pictures of trolleys and subway trains. It's BIZARRO WOILD I tell ya! :)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
:)
What if it's one of those American Airline's A300B4-605R Airbuses?
It's time for the REST of us to "lead by example" and let those"anal-retentive netcops"(YES, it DOES have a hyphen for anyone who gives a pooh) who would be moderators of Unca Dave's home here to get their prized high colonic.
Anyone who's been here long enough to UNDERSTAND Unca Dave's "golden rule" would understand that when you talk about trains, there's ALWAYS "peripheral visions" ... I've been contacted overnight by literally HUNDREDS of folks and the BIG issue to many who have contacted me is the "nitpicking" and the "hate" expressed by some, the incessant winging of folks who come here to CONTRIBUTE and the nonsense that makes them go away ... I won't even BOTHER with how pythed-off folks who *work* for the MTA are about the exploits of some whose egos are more important than this community.
One of the things that I learned about "obsessed people" is that the lack social graces in their commitment to their "personals" ... but most of us are willing to ignore that in the absence of "IN your face" by some. Subtalk has ALWAYS been a wonderful place to get together, compare notes, and YES ... to go OFF TOPIC as diverges from the preferred route.
So MANY of us are into trendously SPECIFIC things ... we all have subtalk in COMMON ... take a deep breath, get a life, and understand that sometimes, we ALL enjoy something *DIFFERENT* ... as I understand the way Unca Dave has shepherded us all these years, diverges are QUIT OK ... it PREVENTS boredom. It's when it turns to criticism, hate, and personal attacks that we only harm ourselves.
Hell ... look at all the damage that's been caused here the past couple of years because of immature chitheads and their egos posting data that caused the VERY people who gave us the BEST stories, and pictures, and details of how it all operates.
ONLY reason why Unca Selkirk can be *SO* blunt over the reality of working on the Patureky Farm is that I *QUIT* in 1996 ... the REST of those who would have given us treats were it not for MORONS are *still* living off that chicken feed on the Paturkey Farm.
*I* can blab because I'm OUTTA there ... they *can't* fire me. But for the treats of those who are STILL in the circus, unless we can be MATURE and DISCREET, then no toys or ice cream. And it's chitheads like CLOWNBOY and others like him who belever *WE* should be moderated by the likes of HIM, along with the bad attitudes and actually being STUPID enough to respond to trolls, encouraging their nonsense ... AGGGGGGGGGGH! :(
Sorry all, didn't MEAN to get on a soapbox, but MORE than enough people have emailed me and curtailed their participation here ... because of WHAT? *GEEZ!!!* :(
TAKE THIS PLACE BACK from the morons! Lets' do THAT much! I cannot BELIEVE that Paul Matus and others (who have been MIGHTY patient with the chit) have just GIVEN UP and gone away. OUR GREATEST TREASURES here DOUBLE :(
And no, they WON'T be leaping at the chance to be "moderated" ... Unca Selkirk BEGS the parties ... can we JUST get past the "netcop" qwap? If there's a problem (other than those caused by the VERY PEOPLE who advocate "moderators") then I'm SURE Unca Dave will say "BUZZ ... YOU LOSE" ... do we WANT that? :(
Clown boy REALLY needs a happy meal. FAST!
It's like having spaghetti and meatballs. Picture SubTalk as a dinner of Spaghetti. A totally 100% rail related SubTalk would be like having spaghetti from a can. Everytime you open the can, it'll taste the same (everytime you log on SubTalk it would be the same). It always tastes the same, and it's always just what you expect.
Now picture SubTalk how it's always been, mostly rail threads, but a few "off the path" conversations too usually going on. That's like having homemade spaghetti. It's always a little different when you eat it, has some oregano and basil thrown in, and other seasonings. To me, it tastes much better. I can get spaghetti in a can wherever I go (the other forums out there), but I prefer the homemade spaghetti (SubTalk) because it's tastier and more interesting. HeII, I even enjoy some crushed red pepper thrown in sometimes, which SubTalk sure gets it's share of.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm very happy here, but if current trends of nonsense here continues, I wonder if I will keep that attitude.
And yes, I even enjoyed the plane photos in this thread. What's the big deal.
Exactly. OT threads generally don't last long because most people here aren't sufficiently interested to respond. For instance, I'd be interested in theads involving aviation, weightlifting, or movie bloopers, but most SubTalkers wouldn't be, so any threads on those topics would die out quickly. I should note in this context that certain political threads will last longer because they aren't always OT, given the political aspects of transit.
It's like having spaghetti and meatballs. Picture SubTalk as a dinner of Spaghetti. A totally 100% rail related SubTalk would be like having spaghetti from a can. Everytime you open the can, it'll taste the same (everytime you log on SubTalk it would be the same). It always tastes the same, and it's always just what you expect.
Now picture SubTalk how it's always been, mostly rail threads, but a few "off the path" conversations too usually going on. That's like having homemade spaghetti. It's always a little different when you eat it, has some oregano and basil thrown in, and other seasonings. To me, it tastes much better. I can get spaghetti in a can wherever I go (the other forums out there), but I prefer the homemade spaghetti (SubTalk) because it's tastier and more interesting. HeII, I even enjoy some crushed red pepper thrown in sometimes, which SubTalk sure gets it's share of.
You've just won the Analogy of the Month Award!
Exactly. They do add to the fun and conversation here. And they are infrequent enough, and they do make it interesting, even if we don't realize it at the time we are reading them. For example, I don't have enough interest it planes to vist an aviation site, but thouroughly enjoyed the Andrews Air Force base photos. I would have not seen them otherwise. I wouldn't otherwise talk or read about a lot of the things (many not rail related) that I have learned about or read about at SubTalk over the years.
Humor. Another reason. Many of the "SubTalk" classics were started as OT threads or through "thread drift". Where would we be today at SubTalk without the mystical chix eating White Castle while trying to tear down the East River?
If you like the occasional aviation photo, here is an awesome one.
Image five, Seem MacDonald Douglas was vain much like Boeing was putting their tradmark on the yok.
John
Yes.
I am glad that some people here have interests beyond rail transit.
John
John
Plans for resuming service on this line
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Last year, my father and I took a look at the section of right of way getting torn up by the township for a rail to trail conversion. The rail was very light, like 60lb, with build dates of 1896, 1910 on the rail web.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The platform itself are not gated off, but the station house (for the most part) is. The platform in that area is used basically by illegal Mexican Immagrants as a home or a place to find work, as is the whole ROW up Throckmorton Av. Also, in the front side of the station houses a small store, while part of the station's former parking lot is now a one block busway extending from W. Main St. to Broad St., as part of the station has been turned into a major bus terminal for New Jersey Transit.
You can see my MOM fantasy map (a fantasy map for restoring service on this line) at http://railweb.homestead.com/fmMOM.jpg
What, no 7-11 parking lots in Freehold?
http://www.thortrains.net/JerseyRR/santa01e.html
Scotland is usually quite tough on criminals. Underfunding from Westminster?
David
End result: I stopped taking NJ Transit buses.
Nope, not the case. Since everyone has a cell phone they have gotten very busy with nonsince.
Chuck Greene
Fortunately the next train at that time of day scheduled to stop at Bedford is thirty minutes later, rather than an hour, but we were all pretty unhappy about this anyway. Presumably the people who wanted to get off at Bedford were even more unhappy, and told the conductor so! The driver just forgot that he was scheduled to stop at Bedford, and there is no way even the quickest emergency application of the brakes could have stopped the train in time, once he realised - which was probably when he entered the platform and saw the people waiting on it. Because of the curve and an overbridge, the platform would be invisible to the driver until just before he reached it.
John
That sentence gave me pause too, but of course he ment the storm door, not the passenger door.
But there are other inconsitencies here.
If the conductor wanted to communicate with the motorman, the intercom or radio would have been used.
IIRC, unless there is a good reason not to, is not the conductor supposed to stop the train in a situation like this.
Seems to me (Unless DefJef posts under a different name on Sunday) both of these critter will be peeing in a cup.
Elias
People sometimes did, of course, and ended up dead - Darwin effect candidates mostly. Which is why, in these litigious and safety-conscious times, centrally controlled door locks have been fitted, and slam-door trains are being phased out anyway.
I remember at least one time, a SEPTA Frankford train (on the el) overshot a station and stopped with the first car totally past the platform. The T/O did something else not done in NYC, he backed up.
Another thing that I saw, were two Black guys on the platform made some hand jestures (which I did not notice). The White T/O after pulling out of the station, stopped the train, got out into the el car and confronted the two guys with some karate moves. He told them what he wanted to do with them, then he held on to the poll and kicked the ceiling. I was about ten feet from this and was amazed. I also thought how that would never happen in NYC. Those Black guys did not show it but I know that they were intimidated by this karate T/O guy. This who incident lasted about three minutes.
R62A's don't have railfan windows at the North (Flushing) end. I guess you were on a R36.
1. A while ago (several months) I wass riding south on the (CTA) Red Line and the motorman missed the stop by the first set of doors. He looked back to see if anyone was standing there and seeing no one he made the stop as usual (!).
2. One Sunday on the way to church I was going north on the Red Line. When we arrived at Wilson, the motorwoman announced that we would be going express to Loyola. This did not come over the PA, at least in my car, but as I ride at the RFW I heard her through the cab. Just to be sure I was not hearing things, I glanced at the roll signs which were arranging themselves to say "EXPRESS." Since I only needed to go to the next stop (which is only a couple of block away) I dashed off, but I am sure some of the "customers" were not so happy, especially since Loyola is a long way up and it would take a while to come back. (But if they were going past Loyola I bet it made their day!) (They can go pretty fast up there too--it would have been a nice ride!)
Matt
#3 West End Jeff
tim
There are the A,B,C,D,E and up to W trains! And numbers 1,2,3 through 9 trains...
And Discovery seems to have cancelled the Z train too.
What, then, are U lines?
S-Bahns do tend to be overground, but that's not necessarily the case (eg the S-Bahn central tunnel in Munich). The system tends to be that U-Bahns cover the city whilst S-Bahns cover the hinterland. They only tend to resemble rapid transit in central sections where many routes run on one pair of tracks. The nearest things outside Germany to an S-Bahn would be the RER/Transilien around Paris and the huge network of commuter lines around London.
If you wanted a term for an elevated U-Bahn, you could use H-Bahn (H for hoch=high or hangen=to hang), but this tends to be used for monorails. O-Bahn (O for obergrund=overground) is a ghastly term for things like the Silver Lie; one in Essen famously went bust.
S-Bahns are absolutely not to be confused with Straßenbahns (street-railways, LRT)!
S-Bahns do tend to be overground, but that's not necessarily the case (eg the S-Bahn central tunnel in Munich). The system tends to be that U-Bahns cover the city whilst S-Bahns cover the hinterland. They only tend to resemble rapid transit in central sections where many routes run on one pair of tracks. The nearest things outside Germany to an S-Bahn would be the RER/Transilien around Paris and the huge network of commuter lines around London.
If you wanted a term for an elevated U-Bahn, you could use H-Bahn (H for hoch=high or hangen=to hang), but this tends to be used for monorails. O-Bahn (O for obergrund=overground) is a ghastly term for things like the Silver Lie; one in Essen famously went bust.
S-Bahns are absolutely not to be confused with Straßenbahns (street-railways, LRT)!
According to Urban Rail Zurich abandoned work on a subway and the tunnels are now used by trams.
I realize that there is no direct contradiction in this but, at least to my mind, it is confusing. For example, on "The Map" Union Turnpike (Queens Blvd line) is a white dot and Van Wyck Blvd is a black dot. But on the "E" schedule, they are just the opposite.
Anyone else bothered by this?
Incontinent Symbols are used at stations where the restrooms are not available.
: )-
--How are any of the green line stations handicap-accessible? The trains require a few steps up, and a NY bus-like wheelchair lift seems like it would take far too long for a system as busy as the green line.
--Are there many accidents on the line, what with all the low-level platforms and crazy, at-grade track switches? Obviously there can't be *that* many or it would be shut down, but the entire thing seemed very dangerous to me.
Major stations have hand-cranked lifts that can get wheelchairs up to car level; an MTBA employee must operate it.
The new Type-8 cars are low-level, and platforms system-wide are being raised eight inches to accomodate flat loading. The process has begun (you may have noticed it at Park Street), but it will take years to complete. Plus, the Type-8s are trouble-plagued, and only 35 of 100 have been accepted in six years. Read more here.
The Green Line is a streetcar line, and thus operates differently from the usual procedures on a "heavy rail" subway system. There have been a number of bad accidents over the years, but additional safety systems keep things pretty much on track. For example, the "yellow over yellow" aspect on a signal at the entering end of a station means that a car is berthed on the platform; stop and proceed at restricting speed. This was implemented after a bad rear-ender some years ago; prior to cars could just pull up behind a berthed car.
In the subway, the signal system prevents conflicting moves (if followed). However, there are no trip stops, so it all depends on operator compliance.
Boston's Blue line has trip stops. The Orange Line (most of it) and the Red Line have Automated Speed Control (ASC), the electronic equivalent.
But the Green Line depends on operator compliance. Just like streetcar systems did for a century.
A/Watertown, abandoned in the 1960s. It branched off from the B/Commonwealth Ave. line at Packard's Corner.
Not true. The Watertown route from Park St and the Watertown route from Harvard Square both terminated at Watertown Square, along with the trackless trolley route from Central Square Cambridge on the north side of the Charles. The Watertown route from Park St was cut back to the Watertown car house, on the south side of the Charles, when the car line from Harvard Square was converted to trackless trolley in 1958.
Was there ever a loop run from Park to Watertown Square then on to Harvard? Or did it always require a change of cars at Watertown Square?
This was before they lettered the surface lines, i.e. they weren't green then either.
First, 70 via Arsenal was the line to Central Square Cambridge and 71 via Mt Auburn was the line to Harvard Square.
Second, let's date your map. Was 70 shown as bus or a trackless trolley. If it was a trackless trolley, then your map was 1960 or 1961. If it's a bus, then it is 1962 or later. You can also look at the date code on the front cover.
In any case, map designations 69 (Park St to Watertown car line), 70 and 71 did not appear on any of the trolleys, trackless trolleys or buses back then.
This was before they lettered the surface lines, i.e. they weren't green then either.
Boston was a lot simpler when it was color blind. :-)
Since I was first there in '63, that would be about right.
In 1959 the 70 and 71 were a trackless trolleys.
The MTA decided to get rid of its trackless system in the late 1950's. It planned to cut over the last remnants in late 1961. However, the union objected to the change and won an arbitration ruling. The trackless lines stayed operational until around April 1962. The only trackless lines that survived were those operating through the Harvard Sq Subway - with the exception of the Harvard Sq - Lechmere line which was converted to bus. The Harvard Sq - Lechemere line was the first trackless line operated by Boston Elevated - starting in the early 1930's.
From 1959 onwards, they did not run the trackless operations on weekends. They substituted bus service for most of the lines.
Yep, September 6, 1958.
The tactic of lying about the closure seems to have worked on the A line, but didn't work on the E line. The MBTA claimed to close the line "temporarily" back in the 1980s, and has been trying to make the closure permanent since then. However, community opposition to the closure, and some well-fought lawsuits, have led to the conclusion that the "T" must re-open the line if the closure is indeed temporary. You can read more about the ongoing struggle here:
http://www.arborway.net/lrv/
If only the A line had the same calibre of litigants behind it, the A might also return.
Tim and I met as he left his NJT train (we had emailed photos), and took the SEPTA train (AEM7 #2304 pushing) to 30th Street, riding in a center-door Bombardier coach (tacked onto a MN order). After seeing 30th Street Station and getting some photos from outside, we took the R5 to Radnor, using our Trenton-to-zone 3 tickets (same price as Trenton to Philly). We easily walked from the Radnor train station to the Radnor P&W station in the eleven minutes allowed by the timetables, and waited several minutes for our outbound to Norristown.
We had three minutes to connect with the R6, most of which was taken up getting our Day Passes initiated. We just made the train, and rode it to 30th Street Station, where we transferred to the Market Street subway and went to 5th Street.
We walked past Independence Hall, and Tim was particularly interested in the “Bug Bus” double deckers. There were two, of different types. Tim said that he had driven one of them in England!
We walked to South Street to get cheesesteaks at Jim’s Steaks, then walked from 4th to Broad Street to get the BSS. We took a local to Girard, then a Ridge Ave express to Erie, then reversed direction and took an express to City Hall, transferring to the Market Street subway to 30th Street, then the subway surface to the 40th Street portal. We walked a block to get a good angle for the sun while standing in the shade, and photographed several trolleys.
another trolley photo
Back at the 40th Street portal, we saw a motorman make a brief “pit stop”.
another trolley photo
yes, they really are trolleys
We then took the subway surface back to 30th Street and took the MFSE to 69th Street, coming in on track 2. The next train came in on the regular passenger discharge track.
Next we rode a Sharon Hill (Route 102) local to Drexel Hill to photograph the Media and Sharon Hill locals.
LRT photo at Drexel Hill Jct
another LRT photo at Drexel Hill Jct
yet another LRT photo at Drexel Hill Jct
We returned to Terminal Square on the same car that we had taken to Drexel Hill Jct, getting off at Fairfield Ave to photograph a SEPTA work car.
SEPTA CMC-2002
We then rode the MFSE to 15th Street and took the subway surface from the Center City loop to 30th Street Station, where we bought NJT tickets to Lindenwold. While we waited for the NJT train, we went upstairs and photographed SEPTA activity.
Bombardier cab car
Silverliner II and IV
three trains moving
AEM7 #2302
The NJT Atlantic City train was delayed by a Delair Bridge opening to let a large ship move downriver.
The slightly late arrival in Lindenwold didn’t hurt, since PATCO runs frequently during rush hour. We rode to 16th & Locust, then back to Broadway to catch the River LINE to Trenton. We saw our train moving down Delaware Ave in Camden, but had no problem catching it at the Rand Transportation Center.
We arrived in Trenton several minutes before an NJT train departed for NYP. Tim had time to buy his ticket and catch the train before it left.
I had a marvelous time. Tim is a great person, extremely personable and pleasant. He gave me interesting insights into trainspotting in Britain, whenever I stopped talking long enough to allow him to get a word in. The Railfanning was good, too. We had great luck with connections at Radnor, Norristown, and Camden.
TA management uses the line concept. Would you as a Supt. in Queens you drop E intervals to help the V which is helping the B/D which is the South. Your boss and his boss still are rivals with the B/D lines boss' boss.
And yes private industry is the same. You might take a hit for another manager in your district but you are not going to kill your bonus for the office in another region.
C 6tph + E 15tph + V 7tph = 28tph on 8th Av Lcl
B 7tph + D 7tph + F 15tph = 29tph on 6th Av Lcl
No intervals would be lost, except maybe one or two B interval which could be covered by some D trains running local on CPW and in the Bronx.
TA management uses the line concept. Would you as a Supt. in Queens you drop E intervals to help the V which is helping the B/D which is the South. Your boss and his boss still are rivals with the B/D lines boss' boss.
In circumstances where a major trunk line is affected, the Line Superintendants should be over-ruled so that the City gets the best service rather than an individual getting the best bonus.
And yes private industry is the same. You might take a hit for another manager in your district but you are not going to kill your bonus for the office in another region.
It is one of the errors of modern railroads that they have abandoned the principle of service in favour of one of profit.
lol john
Regards,
Jimmy
Anyway, the B was said to go out onto the bridge and reverse like old times. But when the Essex realignment ic complete (Sept.?) They will be able (southbound) to remain in Essex station on J1 and reverse back down that track to Canal (Queensbound J's and M's will be using 4 track). Then it will have to wrong-rail down 4 track to Chambers where it can access J2. But that would be less disruptive to J & M service than the move and changing ends on the bridge. You would change ends on J1 in Essex out of the way. Northbound trains rerouted would use J4, while J&M would use J1.
Or... how the heck can you place crossovers on lines that have 20 to 50 feet of vertical separation?
They were not overlooked. They were not possible.
Elias
The recent Manny B closure was a perfect time to add one, as well as a crossover north or south of Grand, but it didn't happen.
Everyone in the field sees the value of crossovers there, but CPM has to weigh the benefits versus the cost, and I guess its just never come out on the plus side...
Maybe Windsor Terrace Economist can weigh in with specifics.
We're everywhere.
When I was a kid if you were a Dodger fan as I was, it was incomprehensible to also like the Yankees in the other league. Just not possible. Back then I liked Cleveland.
I'm a Mets fan by the way.
Hey (I'm a Yankees fan)! ;-)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
til next time
Speaking of light rail, the middle track at Broadway (formerly the s/b track) now has concrete all around it through the station itself. Two layup tracks have been installed south of the station. They still haven't begun tying in the new line to the existing one south of Broadway. However, trackwork is in place all the way from the new Broadway bridge all the way to at least Franklin Street. And the Louisiana Lid is now in place above the Louisiana Ave. station.
I got back in to see the 12th and 13th... apparently all I needed to see! :)
-Harry
Chuck Greene
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Regards,
Jimmy
Did you find that old steam engine supposedly buried down there?
Matt
Just wanted to give the heads up.
This is the greatest TV show on today and some things are best left unsaid regarding finales. I have followd "24" from day one and now with two episode "hours" left before we can final out if the viral bottles can be found, you have to ess things up.
GGGRRRRRRRRRR
Better than that American Idol garbage, IMO!
-Chris
Chris, can I rephrase your statement to "Better than half of TV on that is garbage"?
Still, IAWTP.
MTA New York City Transit
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn NY 11201
or go to www.mta.info and pose the question on the feedback page.
David
www.topozone.com tells you how far above seaa level the streets are.
My guess is that most of the NYC subway, once you're more than half a mile from the East River, is above sea level.
Certainly the north-south trunk lines in midtown are all above sea level, since they are generally at most 2 levels down (30'), while the streets are higher than that.
Is this guy REALY a 'writer' ? :-)
For the purpose of your story though (and to save you a lot of unnecessary research, the "under-river" portions would obviously be flooded and out of use. A respectable amount of tunnel would be rendered unserviceable (until such a hole is repaired - and if there WERE a terrorist attack that would want to flood the tunnels, repairs could be made within a week or two) water would spread to a respectable amount of the system, but only enough to flood the tracks and knock out third rail until it could be pumped out.
Where I'm going is that a large amount of tunnel space would still be useable, PARTICULARLY in upper Manhattan where it's hilly as well as the IND tunnel along the Concourse which is pretty high up indeed. Brooklyn and Queens, being a bit lower than upper Manhattan and the MAINLAND Bronx (all other boroughs are islands just so you have the perspective) would have some water, but would not be "flooded to the roof" ...
If you're looking for an interesting angle though, you might consider that in addition to subway tunnels, there are other catacomb-like tunnels throughout the city between and connecting various buildings, cable vaults that carry wire and other infrastructure where those hiding from an invasion force could "hole up" in a novel. Subway tunnels would not necessarily be a practical hiding place for survivors primarily because they're well known and could be readily patrolled by an invasion force.
For an INTERESTING angle, your survivors COULD stumble upon the remains of the abandoned Beach pneumatic subway tunnel which probably still has remains underground (factual) and for a bit of HUMOR for folks like us who are in on the joke, you could really have some fun by placing your survivors in the "abandoned 76th Street station" ... (there's some references to this UFO of the subway back in the archives here if you're so inclined - it'd be an "inside joke" among "us") ...
But upper Manhattan and the Bronx would be a "plausible" site for your survivors to hole up although most of the subway system would survive, at worst just getting a WEE bit wet. :)
Beach Pneumatic subway:
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/beach.html
Abandoned IND "second system" portions:
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/indsecsys.html
"76th Street" was to be part of the above. Randy Kennedy in the New York Times had some fun with our tirades here about it. "Next Stop, Twilight Zone (aka 76th Street Station)", by Randy Kennedy (January 21, 2003). Randy Kenndy's Tunnel Vision column explores the mystery of the 76th St. station but offers no conclusive proof for or against its existance.
The article is here:
http://college3.nytimes.com/guests/articles/2003/01/21/1064459.xml
I'm sure you can have some fun with it. :)
We'll go 500 mph in flying machines?
Then crawl into town on roads jammed with gas buggies?
Electric-powered carriages on rails will save the day?
Hey - You've been reading Jules Verne!
Speaking of the prophetic travel writer Jules Verne (Around the World in 80 Days, 20000 Leagues Under the Sea, Voyage to the Moon), what would the exemplar of French logic say if he surveyed our transportation scene today?
No doubt he'd find our huge jet powered airliners admirable, as do we all. He'd relish the way landing planes taxi to their stations and are quickly coupled to covered passageways for deplaning passengers - or are met at Dulles Airport by huge mobile lounded that whisk passengers to the terminal.
He'd note with approval the way moving sidewalks help speed the landed passenger on his way to the termina's exit at Newark, O'hare and elsewhere.
But then he'd have trouble believing his eyes.
He'd see passengers so recently hurling through the air pile into buses, taxicabs, and automobiles and ooze out onto jammed roads and crawl into town.
"Jammed Roads," alas is the name of the game in today's ground transportation. But there's a way to beat the game...
If the ghost of Jules Verne were to land at Frankfurt Germany, for example, the brain that concieved the mechanical harmonies of Captain Nemo's Nautilus would revel in the superb linkage of airport and central city.
Deplaining passengers decend to a rail transit station right unde the terminal. They board a train on a 75mph loop off the main Frankfurt-Mainz line. Eleven minutes later they're in downtown Frankfurt. First class fare: 85 cents.
Verne would be pleased to find other airport access lines in Brussels and Cleveland...some sort of rail linkages in Tokyo, Vienna, Berlin (600 feet short of the airport), Mexico City (15 blocks short)...new airport lines in Paris, London and Washington DC...lines planned for Hamburg, Stuttgart and Dusseldorf.
For Jules would be quick to note:
1. Aerodynamic efficiency is only part of what today's airliners have going for them. Freedom from cross traffic at grade level is perhaps an equally basic advantage.
2. Only rail transit has freedom -or virtual freedom- from cross traffic on the ground... traveling on its own right of way, going elevated or underground as indicated.
Truely rail transit is the missing link in air travel between cities today = the link that can prevent getting to the airport from taking up as much time as flying to another airport hundreds of miles away.
Dusenbury seems to be promoting direct service to the center of the city, not an overglorified shuttle to the edge of airport property, where, for a mere 3½ times the fare anywhere else in the city, passengers can transfer to a subway line that's been there for decades. Eleven minutes to downtown Frankfurt or eleven minutes to downtown Howard Beach?
I sure would hate to be on an icy busway when the bus hit a patch of ice. Also . . . no plowing expenses with a railway versus a busway. Gotta look at the big picture.
<PLONK> (do unto me if thou likest not truth nor correction, as I have done to thee.)
As for funding, you're quite right: only by making a big deal that AirTrain is a train was it politically possible to design a fare structure that places the bulk of the operating cost burden on a minority of the system's riders, mostly the airport's budget travelers.
I don't understand that statement at all.
What do you mean by the minority of riders: HB + Jamaica riders or just HB?
If you mean just HB, there is no way that fares collected from HB passengers pay anywhere near the bulk of the operating ocst of the system. They may pay a significant portion of the passenger revenue, though even that is doubtful (I suspect there are more riders to Jamaica than to HB), but they can't possibly be paying the bulk of the COST.
If you mean HB + Jamaica, then there is some element of fairness there, at least as far as Jamaica is concerned. The Jamaica leg was very expensive to build, requires quite a bit of rolling stock, and absorbs much of the operating cost, so it's fair for those riders to pay.
I contend that the bulk of the COST comes not from fares but from general PA revenues. Since the PA is one big bucket, you can't say what those are, but the passenger tax, parking fees, and concessionaire fees are the certainly the main sources of airport-related PA revenue.
Airtrain Ridership Stats through February (latest for which they are available):
January: Jamaica 59,810; Howard Beach 87,335; 4,746 total per day
February: Jamaica 61,760; Howard Beach 77,907; 4,816 total per day
Another interesting item from the data -- January 2003 had 92,818 arrivals via the subway at Howard Beach. February 2003 had 85,312. Although ridership to Howard Beach is down about 5-10%, total arrivals by rail are up by about 60%.
March numbers are probably about a week away from being published.
CG
And how, if at all, are those numbers adjusted to account for the park-and-riders, who formerly could enter the subway station directly from the parking lot but now have to pay the AirTrain fare to not ride AirTrain? They don't ride AirTrain and they shouldn't be counted as AirTrain riders, but I'd guess that they're counted once if not twice (depending on the answer to my first question).
Does anyone still park and ride from there or (as I would assume), have they all moved on to cheaper locations?
CG
Beats me. I didn't even know they existed until people started discussing them on this board.
AirTrain claims to recover 100% of its operating costs from the farebox. Most passengers (about one-third, as of March) ride free. The remaining passengers, then, cover not only their own share of the total operating cost but also the shares of the many free riders.
Is AirTrain not, in fact, covering its operating costs from the farebox?
At least NY now has two airports featuring a two seat ride to downtown, no longer do you have to face an interminable taxi ride into the city, or crowd onto a luggage-unfriendly bus.
The 60' cars have wider aisles, so its really not too bad.
The R44/R46, you can stick the smaller packages under the seat. Just make sure not to forget them.
Now riding the IRT with luggage, well you kill the ailse with a small bag...
Been there, done that many, many times.....even happens when I have my viola with me, with my case upright between my legs.
Looks like track defects might be the cause of this one.
But I have been wondering if there were ever public rest rooms in stations. I think I recall seeing some older doors in lower Manhattan with old Mens Room signs.
I realize that people don't spend much time in the stations, but I have experienced several public urinators being caught by under cover cops (they wouldn't let them finish) and probably most people have noticed that smell occasionally.
If the rest rooms were staffed, it could deter crime and vandalism, as well as provide an income if you had to pay a buck or so.
Any comments?
That doesn't mean there are still active restrooms. Though guaranteed, the only real-maintained one will be at Times Square. You can forget anywhere else. *thinks of Main Street-Flushing.*
AFAIK, some riders either abuse the system/take it for granted. The prospect of opening restrooms in other stations would be a burden.
It's difficult to figure why most of the major stations don't still have bathrooms available, but this country is notorious for pretending that those bodily functions don't exist. Same thing is true in the Toronto subway as well; a few sites are mentioned on the transit map, I think, but there aren't many.
There had to be some sort of modification to the New York State law to allow charging for those sidewalk units.
You may find old jokes about using the handicapped persons' toilet because there was never a charge for using them.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
I was warned about this problem when I first visited the USA in 1968, and following advice by locals, developed the skill of marching confidently into smart hotels, looking for the Gents without seeming to be looking for it, and marching into it. I never once got stopped or asked "Are you a guest here, sir?" I recommend the Biltmore in Pershing Square in LA!
However, thanks to (1) security (2) worries about drug-dealing and vice (3) cuts in public expenditure, especially by local government, the UK is getting almost as bad as the USA in this respect - many public toilets have closed, and very few London Underground stations now have them. And as I discovered the other week, Paris is pretty bad too: I had to interrupt my railfanning to go back to my hotel to use a toilet. Mainline stations are still o.k., in general; a couple of years ago the Gents at Jamaica LIRR station wasn't too bad, but I don't how it has fared in the rebuilding to accommodate AirTrain.
Pretty similar for Paris/Brussels I have found, with the proviso that most toilets are heavily guarded by attendants, even in fast food outlets (useful exception in Brussels: Comic strip museum has unguarded toilets that can be used for free).
Funny you should mention it, but I was having a look through an extremely oldf book in the library yesterday about railroad passenger terminal design. Some of it would have been laughably politically incorrect if it weren't politically incorrect to laugh about it (the three waiting rooms at New Orleans, with a separate street entrance for the third, for instance). However, one of the notable things was the treatment of restrooms. The men's room was often behind a barber's shop (!) and often had a washroom in front of it. The women's room was often located not only off a separate women's waiting room, but with the intervention of a women's retiring room!
At Loughborough (England) station, the Ladies is *still* accessed through the waiting room, though the waiting room itself is no longer segregated! The Gents, on the other hand, is accessed directly from the platform.
Women's lib. The objection was that there was a quarter charge to use a stall, but not a urinal. The law made a hero out of some woman legislator.
I think they should repeal it, and allow private vendors to operate restrooms in the subway. The rest rooms would have to be manned, and would presumably be present only in major transfer stations where many people are passing through far from home.
Women's lib. The objection was that there was a quarter charge to use a stall, but not a urinal. The law made a hero out of some woman legislator.
Restrooms in London railway stations have a turnstile right at the entrance. A small fee is charged to everyone who enters for whatever purpose. This way, there's no de facto discrimination against women.
Cleaning toilets is not degrading.
One of my first jobs when I got out of the Navy was as a custodian in a Junior High School. A nice clean restroom shows respect in your work, and respect for the people you work for. There are far many worse jobs that a person might have, and even a good job where you are not respected is truly degrading.
Just ask any plumber: They would rather clean a stopped toilet than a stopped up grease trap in a resturant.
It is honest work, and gives jobs to people who migh not otherwise be able to work. And that gives them self respect, and pride.
Elias
Actually, there NEVER were any toilets in the stations.
They were always located in the restrooms.
Yes, most stations did have restrooms, but due to filth, crime and perversion they were slowly disapeared from service.
First they were "closed for cleaning", then they were "out of order", and then they were all forgotten about as if they had never existed, all probably without any encouragement, discouragement or comment from on high.
Now to put one of these thing "back into service" WOULD require permission, planing, and funding from the highest levels of government, who will in turn look at their budgets, their taxes, and their balance sheets, and decide "No way in heck... we got other things to spend our money on!"
But what *I* would do if *I* ran the zoo... I'd rent out retail space to the likes of McDonald's, Dunkin Donut, Burger King, Starbucks, et all and etc with the proviso in their lease agreements that they maintain a clean well lit, well ventilated establishment that includes *PUBLIC* restrooms. Collect rent from them, and let them maintain the facilities.
Looks to me like a Win-Win-Win Situation, AND the porkmasters can still get their rake off the top.
Elias
I've seen it done.
DONT ask how.
How do people get away with it? Well, I'm not one to shrink from speaking up and challenging anti-social behavior on the subway. But I wasn't about to walk over to that woman and say something. No way.
I wouldn't really call that young woman's behavoir anti-social. She probably was humiliated about what she had to do but simply had no choice.
They know no one is going to walk over and say something to them. Chances are there is no cop in the area.
And if anyone calls for a cop, she'll be finished and gone long before he arrives.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
A-HA! So there ARE members of the 50-foot-under club after all. I wonder if the majority of those lovers happen to be homeless...?
I end up in coffee shops for that reason. Trading the purchase of a beer or coffee in exchange for the use of a restroom just leave you on a treadmill, I'm afraid.
For pics look here and click at them
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,299403,00.html
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.info
Yeesh!
Trevor
7371 is the car in front of the signal dolly car.
Also get 3184, 8013 (Change the freaking trucks, I'm sure we have trucks laying around from dead R-32/R38/Redbirds that can be placed on), 6387, 8506, and maybe a R32GE and R38 set and there you have a good 8 Car SMEE Train that could be used for a decent Fantrip.
I find that though I enjoy the Arnie Trips, at the same token I cant stand them because the B Division trips are more popular and since there is only 4 cars, space can be tight at times.
Regards,
wayne
wayne
This is an R-32? What ever do you mean?
--Mark
You're right, R16's need broken doors and grafitti covered exteriors to really bring back the memories.
Absolutely Chris: Its true that the R-21's and R-22's were never beauty queens but they were rugged IRT veterans. That two piece front window which could drop down was a railfan favorite in the pre-air conditioning days. The R-21's and 22's were in many ways reminesient of the Gibbs Hi-V's. It would be nice to see at least one preserved.
Larry,RedbirdR33
It is very important to include them in the museum fleet. I just wished they could have saved some 76 and 7700s.
That last train that operated on February 29, 1988 were R17s only. This particular set of cars (about 20 total) were painted in redbird colors and placed on the Flushing Line as temporary replacements of R33WFs while they underwent GOH.
Here is a picture of them on the "7":
When the R33WFs returned, the R17s were then placed on the 42nd St Shuttle, where they stayed until they were replaced by R62s (NOT R62As). Then they were bounced to the "5" and remained there until retirement.
Here's how to distinguish without looking at the storm doors: the 17s had the little oval shaped glass "emergency handle" (or whatever that was called) above the side windows on each side (inside and out), like the 16s... the 21/22s did not.
Besides, the 21s were what came in as replacements for the Hi/Lo-Vs on the Brooklyn branches - in other words, they were MY "new trains" :)
Shalom from Tel Aviv. Andy.
Where's the Steinway WF-LO-V???
wayne
R-10's did sees service on the Brighton (D) around 1980 during the R-46 Rockwell HPT-2 truck fiasco. Don't know if #3184 was assigned there.
Bill "Newkirk"
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
-William A. Padron
("Wash. Hts.-8th Av. Exp.")
wayne
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Peace,
ANDEE
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Trevor, mind if I add those to the site?
-Dave
Trevor
I used to ride the R-1/9's as a child in the early and mid 1970's when I used to go to the allergist in Manhattan. I still remember the glow of the yellow bulbs, the "whoosh" of the pneumatic doors opening, the moaning sounds of the motors, the "straw seats" and the whirring of the exposed ceiling fans. Even as an 9 year old kid in 1974 I knew that the R-1/9's were something special that wouldn't be around much longer. Those photos really take me back.
Too bad those cars have gone the way of platform gum and ice cream machines and Nedick's stands.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Da Hui
Any more jokes, Ozzy?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
til next time
Larry,RedbirdR33
Retired and honored: (Trevor's photo from the original post)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
(Sorry, I forgot the link.)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
http://www.kickdesign.com/kicksubwaymap
1) Sanchez runs a column praising Jabbour's map.
2) Jabbour says his map is better than the current map.
3) Someone from the MTA makes contrary comments.
4) Sanchez finds a way to make a snide comment about Peter Kalikow.
A week or so later, the process is repeated.
What a waste of newsprint. Isn't there anything else better in the subway system to write about?
Well... To be perfectly honest, once the series on the new map is finished, I'm hoping that Ray Sanchez will do a 5 part series on my life and thoughts. I'm sure that will get him a Pulitzer Prize.
Thread 708343: Mon May 17 09:11:58 2004
This is not the first thread where you are mentioning a map you're supposedly designing that is even better than Jabbour's (cf. threads #705461, 705468, 705520, 705777).
So, as your self-imposed deadline is about to pass, I'm just curious: did you really manage to complete the job and compile a map that's even better than Jabbour's (or better still than The Map)? In other words: are you a man of your word or just full of hot air?
The least you could do to prove yourself for the better is giving us a preview of your map. If you can/will not do this, I do not believe I (and maybe other SubTalkers) can take you seriously any longer.
-Alargule
Jabbour's design is amazing and the routes are much easier to follow, especially in Manhattan. I could care less about the 'geographic accuracy' about the map. No design in this regard will ever be geographically accurate, but then, who cares? Criticisms on purely that basis for those types of maps is silly.
BTW, I think they got the W and N a little bit mixed up in Manhattan. First, they swap their position at 49th. Also the W is local all the time and should have black dots, while the N which only makes local stops on weekends should have those stations in white dots.
Overall, I like the map.
-Chris
"In order to get to the other side, catch the next blah-blah train, then go downtown to blah-blah, then go to the other side and catch the blah-blah train uptown to get to your stop."
I'm sure that enough to make those people's heads spin.
- drawback:
anything more than 3 - 4 separate lines are too much. Upper 8th Ave works, because you easily split the lines apart at 145 Street
The yellow BMT-Broadway lines sort of blend into the orange 6 Ave lines. Do you really gain anything by splitting the 4 from the 5 on the main Lexington Ave branch? Reduce / re-use / recycle! :-)
Queens Blvd lines look like they're electrical conduits --- And the [G] doesn't even run all the time --- maybe try something such as: [V] or [G].
It could be a hyphenated orange/green line where they run on the same track.
J
http://www.kickdesign.com/kicksubwaymap/pages/kickmap3.htm
-Alargule
how is your map coming along?
If possible, a scan of the entire map. Alternatively, you could just give me a portion of that map with the color-coded neighborhoods. Thanks. Is it ok if I upload or should I just link to your stuff?
Speaking of which, has Mr. Jabbour registered on here yet? And has he seen progress on his map?
http://community.webtv.net/hey-paul/EddieJabboursMap
Here's his e-mail address, if you want to contact him:
eddiejabbour@mac.com
Quite a while back I saw movie where the main character used one of these exits, I think in Times Square. He appeared through the street on a platform, it looked like a pneumatic elevator. Is that right? And if so, does anyone now how they work?
Just for the record: I am not on of those who has the emergency kit ready at home and fear to be nuked in the subway on the way to work. My biggest fear is by far the subway rat, no al Quaeda man can beat him.
If they are like Chicago's, then I think that this is mostly correct. I think that they are either stairs or a ladder with a counterbalanced hatch on top. Sometimes you see what appears to be the bottom of one in the tunnels when moving slowly and I think they look like some sort of spiral stairs. They should not need any auxiliary equipment to function as designed.
Matt
It's just a set of steps up. The yellow plate swings upward and can be pretty heavy. the steps down usually just go to the cut out in the wall of the tunnel. The number of levels of course depends on the depth of the tunnel. Some are quite elaborate, with many landings, others go straight up the steps from the tunnel to the yellow plate. there can also be little closet rooms in there if there's a hallway over across the tracks or whatever. Some photos of a more complex one can be found here: http://ltvsquad.com/Missions/Tunnels/Subways/BelowBway/Various.php
I hear they are installing sensors on them now, post 9/11. Not sure if that's true or not. Anyone?
Taken at Metro Center Upper Level. Yes, that is a green dash next to FRANC-SPRNGD. And right after I took the picture, the sign changed to ( || U ST-CARDOZO ) but I was unable to get a picture. All the other signs on that side of the train including the 2 CAFs at the Glenmont end had the correct reading for ( | GLENMONT ).
WMATA gone crazy!
wayne
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Mark
What I said was, "used to be Yellow only". That "only" is important, since I acknowledge that it still serves the Yellow Line, but it also serves the Blue Line, which it did not do originally.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Now, if anyone wants to figure out how I got to King Street that early in the morning on a Sunday, go ahead...
As for the bike ride itself, it was alot of fun. I had never biked that far that early in the morning (I left home at 6:45 AM) but it is quite fun doing it at that time instead of in the heat and humidity at 4 PM.
Mark
The tunnel is on the Capital Crescent Trail.
The route was as follows:
Capital Crescent Trail to K Street to Thompson's Boat House to Rock Creek Parkway to Ohio Drive to the Tidal Basin to the 14th Street Bridge to the Mount Vernon Trail to King Street to the Metro. I left my house at 6:45, got to the Metro just before 8:15, and biked practically non stop (except to take some photos along the way).
The DC area is a great place to bike. I am very fortunate to be able to get to a very great number of places from where I live by bike very easily (and hopefully it will stay that way, in other words, NO PURPLE LINE).
Uh, is there a new train tunnel near Old Town?
I would hazard a guess that this is some kind of memory error in the that sign. The PROM that holds the software used to translate the destination code from the cab has likely been damaged resulting in false displays, and or the data link between that sign and the cab has some noise on it resulting in a false display.
John
Mark
I will one up that by saying use a plasma display that mimics a roll sign and bring back the inside display that shows a strip map of the line as well.
Use a cheap PC running striped down barebones Linux kernel to drive the displays.
John
Mark
p.s.--See ya on the 19th
The CAF cars use some form of lamp like a diode. Here is a picture of the sign in a CAF car. The Rohr and Breda cars use flip dots. The sign shown in the photo Oren posted are flip dots in a Rohr car.
John
The shadow on the gutter led me to believe it was a Rohr Car. But on closer look I can see a vertical poll on the first row of seats inside the car that would indicate that this is in fact a is Breda car.
John
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Quite a while back I saw movie where the main character used one of these exits, I think in Times Square. He appeared through the street on a platform, it looked like a pneumatic elevator. Is that right? And if so, does anyone now how they work?
Just for the record: I am not on of those who has the emergency kit ready at home and fear to be nuked in the subway on the way to work. My biggest fear is by far the subway rat, no al Quaeda man can beat him.
This is my invisible message about Metro North. How much would it cost, financially and time-wise, to convert the underrunning 3rd rail of MN to the overrunning 3rd rail of the LIRR? This would include all equipment.
The purpose of such a project is to standardize equipment, since MNCRR is smaller than LIRR. Equipment could possibly be shared between railroads.
I'M REALLY OUT OF IT...but you know what I mean.
That's interesting since CTA uses uncovered 3rd rail and doesn't seem to have any issues...just drop the sleet scrapers and watch the show. Paris may get more severe winters than Chicago though, and I certainly don't hear about all of the weather-related events around the system. Seems that frozen switches cause the most grief as the Loop is very switching intensive.
It is fun riding in the snow...especially when they run extra trains to keep everything clear and the headways are short!
Seems that Chicago is one of the last to use an exposed system. I wonder about the durability and benefits of one system verses the other.
Matt
Matt
CDot Cars could *always* come to Penn Station.
AMTK cars make that run all of the time.
There was a Joint NYNH&H-PRR train from Boston to Washington. (Its GG-1 even ended up in the station basement once.)
Mostly it is just a matter of finding tunnel and platform slots for these trains, which may happen after some LIRR trains are siphoned off to GCT.
Still it does seem that LIRR needs more manhattan capacity.
Anybody want to build a new lion to downtowl...
did I tell you that I have a plan...
: ) Elias
Note that most of these ROW are already publicly owned so little land acqyisition will be needed.
And yes I remember the GG1 in the basement--I was a kid in DC at the time. You could tell where the damage had neen because the gates were rebuilt in cheapo aluminum instead of the cast iron that had been wrecked.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-cta16.html
People didn't seem to like it when they took out a few seats for the current arrangment on the 3200s as they perceived fewer seats to be a decrease in capacity of sorts. 'L' riders seem to value having a seat.
Random Thought:
Now if they actually get around to ordering these cars I'll be surprised. They need to get a move on or the 2200s will be over 40 by the time they get enough to phase them out. This doesn't bother me as the 2200s are the best cars on the system (IMHO) and have that NICE Budd stainless exterior. They still look brand new. No rust. They also don't have those noisy fans inside for the HVAC as they are either fully under the car or just built better then the new ones.
Matt
Extra Credit: What is wrong with these pictures?
The 2200s are in fact on the Blue Line in Forest Park Yard, but they have been signed up for the Orange Line. The last motor(wo)man must have seen me coming with the camera! ;)
They have to be on the lines that contain the Kennedy or Dan Ryan per an agreement with the city who owns the cars. They were purchased for those lines when they opened.
Matt
Too bad I am back home in Akron, OH for summer. I hope they keep these until I can get back to see them!
So far, from what I've heard, it seems that riders prefer the old configuration better. I like the old layout as I can easily lean against something for support if I am standing. I, for one, dislike touching anything except my farecard with my hands. Some also say that the view is better, but if the car is crowded there is no view. The 'L' has some nice scenery. The new layout may help lessen the chronic "vestibule bunching" that I, too, am guilty of. I also would like to see and try the straps.
By the way, about staggered doors--are they still around and why were they used? I heard that they help with the above "vestibule bunching."
Matt
I sort of agree. While I don't really like the green tiles at stations like Bleecker, etc, if you carry that over to the "cement block" or refrigerator tile that was installed over the mosaics on Broadway line or the 4th AVe line in Brooklyn, I do agree. Personally, I really do like the look of the cement block tile. My "dislike" of it always had to do more with the fact that they covered the original mosaics, not that I thought it was such a bad design. The cement block tile had a nice fresh look to it, and liked the color accent areas where the station signage went. If it had been used as "original" tile, such as if they built the 1970's 2nd Ave subway's stations with that design, I definitely would have approved, as it would have reflected the times in which the stations were built (such as all the stations do from the IND to the IRT reflect the period they were built).
That being said, it was really stupid that they covered over the old mosaics, and thankfully they had removed quite a bit of it to restore the old tiles.
Here's the evolution cycle. They started as what we know as "IND tile" in the early 1930's:
In the late 1930's or early 1940's, the IRT did it's first wave extensions, such as was done between Grand Central and Union Square, and on one side of the stations between 14th and BB. This was actually a "glorified" IND style of tiling:
Next, that on the IND, the classic IND tile evolved into the "new IND style" that was seen in the post war IND stations such as the Fulton line east of Broadway-East New York. This is also a play on IND tiles, although more recognizable than the first wave of IRT extensions:
Finally, after Grant St, that "new style" IND tile evolved into the very clashing look that was used on the other side of the IRT extensions on lower Lex, and the upper Bway-7th Line:
Today, the "repro" tiles are correcvting the mistakes of the past. The mosaic reprodictions at so many stations are almost hard to determine whether they are real or not. And even some of those bad IRT extensions from the 50's are being covered and replaced. The below tiles at Canal are actually repro tiles. They are almost indistinguisible from the original ones in in the Canal tiles above:
wayne
179th doesn't look that way anymore.
Here's the revised evolution of subway tile. It was quite a bit of work, so I figured this response deserved a whole new thread.
When the IRT was built, especially the first phases, the stations were conceived as important public spaces, and they were designed as works of art.
Over time, for a variety of reasons, station design evolved into a "Just the facts, ma'am" approach. By the time many of the IRT platform extensions were done, the subway system overall was rather dilapidated, and no one cared whether the stations looked decent.
There was also a lack of appreciation for what the original designers achieved, and even when stations started getting full makeovers in the 1980s, the original designs were in many cases ignored (e.g., Bowling Green, Wall Street). Interestingly, there are now plans at the Wall Street (4/5) station to reverse the 1980s rehab, and restore the original design.
Anyhow, by the 1990s the MTA had figured out what Heins and Lafarge knew from the beginning - that subway stations are important public places. Most of the recent rehabs have once again treated the stations as works of architecture, not merely as utilitarian structures.
That is really good news about Wall St! I never particularly cared for the blue brick that really did not go at all with the original station. To their credit, they must have realized by that point that there was some value to the old design as they did "attempt" to save the mosaics and other features of the old wall with that horrible clashing blue wall.
As for Bowling Green, most people do bring that one up as a "travesty". I however don't blame them that badly though. In Bowling Green's case, the entire structure of the station was altered. Originally, the station was an Island platform station, and the little shuttle platform. In the 70's, the one track wall (along with it's mosaics) was completely removed and dug out to create the wall platform side. The extra platform was badly needed, and they had to take the wall down. So in Bowling Green's case, the mosaics had to be destroyed on one side anyway (there are no original mosaics on the wall platform side under the orange tile because that is not an original platform).
You are absolutely correct though, the MTA finally discovered what Heins and Lafarge knew all along.
wayne
Absolutely! It wasn't even that long ago that we were all thrilled with results like what they recreated at 18th Street on the 7th-Bway line. Below is a recreation of an 18th St name tablet at the end of the platform (I guess on an extension). Above that is the tile band, which although doesn't look bad, fades by comparison to what they are doing now with exact reproduction! At the time, we didn't think it could get better than this.
Name tablet reproduction where they skimped on the band above:
What the original band above should look like:
IRT Chambers Street is about to go under the knife, and the project description includes restoration of the original tile, including the mosaic band at the top of the platform wall. This is a complex undertaking, as Chambers is one of the most dilapidated stations in Manhattan.
Bleecker Street is also getting a full rehab, and the project description suggests they'll attempt be bringing the "extension" portion into architectural conformity with the original station (which is one of the jewels of the IRT, despite its present condition).
Someone mentioned a couple years back (I forget who, it wasn't I) that all the original tile, mosaic and terra-cotta works are landmarked status, I'd like to confirm this as it would explain much of this badly-needed revivalism.
wayne
Will renovation finally rectify the lack of transfer problem?
As I interpret it, the project description says nothing about extending the platform. It certainly would be much cheaper to add an architectural treatment to the existing extension than to abandon it and create a new one.
Will renovation finally rectify the lack of transfer problem?
Yes, that is part of the project.
A platform extension has to be at the same grade as the existing platform. A passageway doesn't.
wayne
Weren't the ones at Grand Central destroyed in the fire of 4/21/1964?
wayne
I believe so, nothing from the original station survived, IIRC. That's another station which is screaming for a more retro rehab.
wayne
...
Although the influx of tourists, which grows thick in spring and summer, might irritate the daily commuter, Congress had visitors in mind when it began planning "America's subway" in the late '60s. The system was designed not just to ferry bureaucrats to their government offices, but also to serve as a national example of modern, efficient urban transportation.
...
Recent offenders include 21 fifth-graders from Westview Elementary School near Muncie, Ind., seven New York State Police troopers in gray dress uniforms and the Eichel family of Chapel Hill, N.C.
My personal peeve is not the tourists standing on the wrong side, but the large crowds of them that form at the ends of the escalators. They seem completely obvlivious that dozens of people of minute, for the next several minutes, are coming down that escalator... seems the absolute worst at Pentagon City during tourist season.
But then she lives in D.C. and that phrase is against the law.
Department stores and shopping malls.
When they are confronted with escalators in transit facilities they use them as if they were in those same department stores and shopping malls. Most of these people have no idea that transit facilities escalators are there to quickly move large amounts of people from one level to the other. These same people move leisurely on their expedition through shopping malls and department stores. Go to your favorite department stores or shopping malls sometime and observe the volume of traffic on the escalators and how leisurely people ride them.
John
I agree about the people who stop at the bottom of the escalator being very annoying. I group them with the people who stand directly in front of the doors on the platform (or the people who wait for an elevator directly in front of the elevator door). Didn't it ever occur to these people that not everyone is going to the same place they are? I always say "Excuse me," but if that doesn't work--and if I am not on an escalator--I just push. Got to get through somehow!
Ben F. Schumin :-)
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/16/nyregion/thecity/16feat.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/16/nyregion/thecity/16trai.html
Obviously, "I (eye)", "O (oh)", and "P" would not be good choices. The article also included "X" in the desirable category.
In MTA documents from the 1960s, the 2nd Avenue Subway was designated the "T." You can see a "T" train in "New York 1960," Robert AM Stern's architecture opus of New York from 1945 to 1970 (before the fall).
Of course, I have always preferred an interchange with the Nassau Loop similar to the one proposed at 63rd Street, with one route going to/from the Willie B and the other to Downtown. Thus there would be two routes north of 63rd Street, one going to Broadway and the second continuing on and joined by a route from Queens. And there would be two routes at Grand Street, one going over the Willie B and one going Downtown, joined by a train from the Willie B.
In that case, the 2nd Avenue would be yellow and brown, the brown an extension of the Nassau Loop, New York's great undiscovered line (even relative to the G). And the Second Avenue Subway would complete the BMT by providing it with an east side service.
What a rough morning for the TTC today....
The (4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Two questions-
1-Do worker still use the term "Ball". I haven't heard it in years.
2-Was it ever used as official designations the way dougherty seems to do on his map?
The term is widely used today on NYCT, though not officially.
The term X152 ball: (X) would indicate that the signal was a home signal controled by (152) lever on the interlocking machine.
Yes, "ball" is still widely used by T/O's and supervision (towers, TSS's, etc), but in printed publications (rules, bulletins, GO's, etc.), it is simply "home signal".
In a documentary on some freight train crash in the mountains somewhere (PA or MD?), I heard mention of "home board". I imagine that's the two-headed position aspect signal that governs switches.
The Home Ball (Interlocking signal) IINM, is the one at the switch, or at the head of the station. It is an absolute signal. It is protecting the device or the track directly infront of it, and is controled by the tower.
Block Signals are controled by train movements, not by the tower. They determine block occupancy. On RAILROADS, a red block signal is not absolute: You stop and then proceed with the expectation that you will be able to stop within your line of sight.
A distant signal gives warning to a train as to what the aspect of the next signal is. IINM, block signals are distant signals of a sort, since they are all chained together. But a distant singnal can be controled by an interlocking signal, not as an independant lever in the tower, but as part of the lever that controls the home signal.
I am sure that someone will correct me if I have miss-spoken.
All signals on my layout are interlocking signals controled by the same wire that controls the switch motors. Some signals are distant signals in as much as they will tell the train the aspect of the next signal.
For this application, I use two color heads: Green over Red for mainline switches and Yellow over Red for yard switches. All distant signals are Green over Yellow.
Elias
And distant would be the approach signals which precede the home signals. They are basically automatics that also have levers in the tower, only it's not the same lever as the home signal. Several approaches in a row will usually have the same lever, however, and be designated on the X plate with a letter after the lever #.
*-Control Line = clear block + braking distance past next signal + safety factor
Absolute signals do not have to be interlocked with switches. They can be absolute just to prevent trains from bunching up in certain locations. For example, on the RF&P, there used to be (it could still be there) an absolute signal not connected to a switch but positioned to prevent a train from entering the town of Quantico, VA and blocking a series of road crossings.
A distant signal is the signal right before the home signal. A home signal is a signal interlocked with a switch.
Michael
Washington, DC
The term "ball" and others used by TA personnel has been deemed politically incorrect and is discouraged. That's why you'll see "home signal" and other more p.c. terms in printed publications.
D'oh hit send too soon. Also those terms are more technical.
But at least when I was in C/R school car we were discouraged from using certain terms because of their supposed political incorrectness. Ball was one of them.
Little Johnny tells his mother that he was watching the builder across the street. Mom says, "That's nice dear, what did you learn?" Little johnny said he learned to hang a door and if it doesn't fit "....you shave a C#^ts Hair off the side". His mother was shocked and told little Johnny to go to his room until his father got home.
Well about an hour later Johnny's dad comes home and hears the story from mom. He explains to Johnny that worksite language is improper at home. Johnny said he understood to which his father said, "Son, I still must punish you so go to the kitchen and get the switch", to which Johnny said,
WARNING: IF YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED, STOP READING NOW AND HIT F1 ON YOUR KEYBOARD!
"Fuck you dad, that's the electrician's job!"
Absolute = Stop and Stay (Home Signal)
Permissive = Stop and Proceed, which is the way automatics and approaches were designed to work.
Can't you still spot the distant/approach signals by the plate with the lever number on the side of the signal housing? In other words, it's possible to distinguish them from automatics, but RTO just doesn't care, right?
Are all balls home?
Ah, not any more. Labor Relations bulletin states that the term "dwarf signal" can no longer be used as it may be offensive. All such signals must be reverred to as "vertically challanged" signals.
IIRC, yard jacks do not have a trip, but the mainline jack always does.
So then, would a wheel detector be a White Dwarf?
Spaced out Sub-Talkers want to know!
Ya leavin' yerself open for some serious attacks there, bud. ;-D
The "new nose" in the artist's rendition was merely "snipped" off the cab end of a BBD bilevel cab car.
I have heard rumors of the height of this bilevel DMU reaching 19 feet. That's about two feet taller than the norm for bilevels too . . . and perhaps a bit unnecessary.
LINK
Also, is the Marble Hill station still in service?
Yep, has an hourly service offpeak today, leaving GCT at 20 minutes past each hour.
Info from the MTA website.
I've only ever seen it (and Spuyten Duyvil station come to that) from the Circle Line boat trip. I didn't realise how small Marble Hill is - one short, narrow island platform reached by one tall, narrow staircase. The platform looks to be only about 3.5 cars long.
There are many stations on the LIRR with platforms that are only 1 or 2 cars long, such as Bellport, Amagansette, etc.
stop making up words
No, I believe it is at least 6 cars long. But I could be wrong. I think the conductor said "all doors open" on my 6-car local yokel. At Morris Heights and U Heights only the first two cars opened. But it looked like they were extending the platform north at one of those two Heights stations.
Your pal,
Fred
BTW:
For those of you hunting down these M7As, the best time to find the M7A train (over at Spuyten Duyvil, anyway) is 6:00. I'll be going down soon. :-)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Train Dude or Dutchrailnut would know.
Can it be P32DM-AC, guys? Or just P32AC-DM? TIA.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Like I said, some people still don't know.
-Chris
On SI, EVERYBODY uses the doors. The transit cops used to stop students from my school (& other schools) from using the doors, but now, they actually HOLD the doors for some kids.
-Chris
...but someone decided to steal MY image from my auction, so I did a little switcheroo with the image: :-)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4152&item=2245262896
#3 West End Jeff
Next time superimpose your "image (c)" etc. comments across the picture not under it and make a statement that the comments are on the photo and not the card.
I do like the image that you left for the one who is referencing your site. I wonder how long it will take before he changes it.
To make it even funnier, Larry (Notchit) keeps changing the text under the picture.
You would think by now that the seller would get the message.
Keep it up Larry, wipe this guy out.
(Note: added piece of scotch tape to metrocard)
Guess he thought he would be getting a price like this for it:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2243331807
Even though the auction is closed, I think you should do your thing with the picture.
*("There's a sucker born every minute")
Bill "Newkirk"
PS: Who is the girl on that card? (I think a model i should know)
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Trying to make Chicago CTA L cars look more like NY subway cars.
-- Ed Sachs
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
An example from Chicago-L.org.
Bonus: a CTA "Redbird".
What was the TA's excuse for nixing the window? Transverse cab?
Matt
How do you pronounce "Spuyten Duyvil?"
Is it "Speiten Deivil?"
Is it "Spoiten Doivil"
Is it "Spitten Divel?"
Something else?
Peace,
ANDEE
So there's your answer. I wonder if the people who use the station there even know the correct pronunciation.
CG
SPI-TIN DIE-VIL
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I've always heared SPY-TON DIE-VIL
--Mark
I've heard the proper Dutch is something like "skoo-il-kill."
Mark
Ralph Kramden and Ed Norton pronounce it as KOS-KEY-OS-KO.
Bill "Newkirk"
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I've pronounced it as KUH-SHOE-SKO and also as "KAH-SEE-OOS-KO." I'm pretty sure I'm wrong on both counts.
A fellow C/R who's Polish (which he believes the name was) told me it would be the former. Everyone always looked at me odd when I announced it that way.
Mark
KOZ KEY US KO
Regards,
Jimmy
Mark
Mark
This may be becasue the "uy" sound in Dutch is rather difficult for English speakers to render.
However it's pronounced, it does mean spitting devil. Why does that area have such an odd name?
I've heard it has to do with the way the river flows out. It is as if the devil is spitting the water and/or ships out. Maybe it refers to the wind pushing the ships out.
http://www.americanfolklore.net/folktales/ny.html
"Spuyten Duyvil
retold by
S. E. Schlosser
Once in old New Amsterdam, there was a brave trumpeter named Anthony Van Corlaer who would blow his trumpet when Peter Stuyvesant wanted to call the people together.
One night, Peter received word that the English were going to attack New Amsterdam. He sent Anthony to warn the Dutch colonists along the Hudson and to call the people to fight. A storm was brewing. When Anthony reached the tip of Manhattan Island, there was no ferry to take him across the tide water creek which connects the Harlem and Hudson Rivers at the tip of Manhattan Island. Anthony called out for the ferryman, but there was no answer. Conscious of his important mission, Anthony decided he would swim across that creek in spite of the devil (in spuyt den duyvil).
Well, the Devil heard Anthony calling for the ferryman, and when Anthony was well into the middle of the creek, the Devil caught him by the leg. Anthony pulled out his trumpet and blew a terrific blast, louder than the wind. It startled the Devil so much that he let go of Anthony's leg. But Anthony did not have strength enough after his fight with the Devil to swim the creek, and so he drowned.
For many years after this, folks living at the northern tip of Manhattan claimed they could hear Anthony's trumpet blowing louder than the wind on nights when it stormed. And the creek where Anthony met his fate was called Spuyten Duyvil. "
I have heard variations of that tale but they generally say the same thing.
If I were to tell you guys how to pronounce it 'correctly' (that is: in its original language - Dutch), you'd probably break your tongues! ;-)
Click here for the right pronunciation. Scroll down to the 'ui'-sound (diphtongue); 'ui' is the present-day equivalent of 'uy', to see how it should be properly pronounced (hope you can read the International Phonetic Alphabet).
Judging by the illegible characters the IPA uses to represent 'ui', it must be a rather difficult and unique sound...;-)
One of these years, American dictionary publishers may finally start going along with the rest of the world in using the world-wide standard way of representing sounds, which has been the IPA since before 1900, instead of every publisher making up its own transcription system.
(The word is "diphthong," by the way--from Greek 'di', meaning two, and 'phthong-', meaning sound--technically the symbol referred to is not a diphthong, but a 'digraph,' two written symbols used to represent one sound.)
So if you say "Spouten Douvil" like a Canadian, you won't be far off (8-) !
BTW, I would say: "Spy-Ten Die-vull"
No. "Spitting Devil".
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Maybe the closest approximation is something like ew-i, rolled together into one continuous sound (but short - don't linger on it too long, that is unless you want them to think you're from Texas :) ).
I have a Dutch colleague at work - if I see him I'll ask him exactly how it's pronounced...
Good point. I once went to Swansea station (in south Wales) and tried to buy a ticket to Pontardulais, pronouncing it in my best effort at Welsh. The Welsh ticket clerk couldn't understand where I wanted to go, and I actually had to write it down!
If you said it Ponterdillis, he'd probably have understood. The problem with place names in Glamorgan and Monmouthshire is that they aren't always pronounced like normal Welsh words. There are some wonderful irregularities around Cardiff: Pentwyn is stressed on the final syllable (which is said "win" rather than "ooeen") and Rhiwbina (where I lived until I was 5) is said Rhoo-buy-na not Rhoo-bee-na (and definitely not Ribena!). Some Welsh spellings are a bit of a joke. Pont-Nedd-Fechan is usually pronunced Pont-Neath-Vaughan, and Caerffili/Caerphilly and Merthyr Tudful/Merthyr Tydfil sound identical regardless of spelling. The thing which I find really dubious is the signs which have sprung up in Cardiff reading things like "Heol y Frenhines", when even a Welsh-speaker would say "Queen Street" for sake of brevity!
Strangely enough, the only place I've ever had problems getting a booking office to understand is Balloch Central - and this was at Glasgow Queen Street!
http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=14093
I have it on the best information that she has *never* gotten off the New York City Subway dressed like that.
Elias
Now all we need is a steamy video to pop up on the internet.
I'm amazed the video(s) of everyone's favorite West Virginian female solider haven't slipped out yet...
Why? Would one be scarred for life by this?
She does bear a bit too much of a facial resemblance to dear old dad.
Now, her stepmother, Kerry's wife Teresa, is definitely hot-looking, even though she's over 60. You could call her a GMILF :)
Never ever leave a cheap shot laying on the table, bro. Heh.
I heard about this pic on the morning show, if Kerry wins, all us perverts won't mind it for 4 years.
WWJD? (What Wouldn't Jenna Drink?)
Thunderbird or Mad Dog ... maybe.
Besides, I know where they've been. :)
Ya got that right. Even when I was 18, I couldn't stand women under 30.
They're in with their cousin Noelle! :) (Jeb's daughter)
Some people just cannot stay on topic, can they . . .
Despite the eternal rumor, the A/C will stay in its current setup.
There are a number of schedule changes. I've been told that there will be some slight changes on the B around the time I ride it in the morning, including a few scheduled holds at 59, which I'm hoping will convince 59 Tower to hold B trains to time. (But the 0705 seems to be the worst offender -- often departing 59 2-3 minutes early -- and it's still not getting a scheduled hold.) At least the dreaded Kings Highway holds are history.
Anyway, the B DEFINITELY needs schedule adjustments. Northbound trains often reach Grand St 5 minutes ahead of schedule, and are not held at West 4th OR 34th. The even spacing between trains often becomes non-existant at all times the line is running, particularly southbound trains after 59 St (coincidence?). The diamond Q was better in comparison, but I'm sure this is a learning experience and schedule adjustments will make things better.
In the morning, the B runs close enough to schedule that it's quite noticeable when it's a few minutes ahead. In the afternoon, all bets are off. (According to the schedule, middays, there should never be any conflicts or near-conflicts at Gold Street northbound, yet, somehow, at least half the time my B has to wait for a D or my Q has to wait for an N. Once in a while, my B will be held at DeKalb just long enough for a D to show its face in the bypass and is then released. Then the Q directly behind us has to wait for the N behind the D.)
Also, many of you may already know, but peak D express service btwn Fordham and 145th is being suspended starting on the 24th and resuming in the fall.
-Broadway Buffer
I believe this is the type of change that would require public hearings.
The Dutch words for "house garden" are "Huis Tuin," pronounced "house town." It came down to us as Houston Street.
True or not - who knows, but it's a great tale.
New York's four signers of the Declaration of Independence were William Floyd, Francis Lewis, Philip Livingston, and Lewis Morris.
Talk about something amusing, I went to Multimap.com and searched for "Lexington" in Great Britain. It brings up eight results:
Lochwinnock
Leigh on Sea
Lewisham
Many English-sounding placenames in North America are named after British towns - e.g. Brighton Beach, New London, and indeed New York - but I can't think of a Lexington in the UK. So maybe it was a person.
Talk about something amusing, I went to Multimap.com and searched for "Lexington" in Great Britain. It brings up eight results:
Lochwinnock
Leigh on Sea
Lewisham
Lockington (2)
Lissington
Lassington
Luckington
But no actual Lexington.
Whether Lexington is a person's name is hard to figure out. It sounds logical, but I've never heard of anyone with that surname. A nationwide telephone directory search via Switchboard.com's find a person function yields only 38 hits for the whole United States.
"A nationwide telephone directory search via Switchboard.com's find a person function yields only 38 hits for the whole United States."
That's interesting too - the same applies to Lockington. I had a relative of that name who was the only Lockington in the Bristol telephone directory, and Bristol is a big city.
So where did the name Lexington come from? An Anglicisation of a Native American name?
Once again according to Multimap, Lissington is about 15 miles northeast of Lincoln; Lassington is just outside Gloucester, probably a suburb thereof; Luckington is midway beween Briston and Swindon; one Lockington is about 20 miles north of Kingston upon Hull; ad the other Lockington is just to the north of East Midlands Airport. They all seem to be pretty small places.
Lockington (Yorks.) used to.
That's interesting too - the same applies to Lockington. I had a relative of that name who was the only Lockington in the Bristol telephone directory, and Bristol is a big city.
It's neat being the only person with one's name in a city. I would be the only Dowden in the Leicester 'phone book, were I not ex-directory. My father is the only one in the Birmingham 'phone book. Strangely enough, on the next street in the village in Northumberland my grandfather lives in, there's another wholly unrelated Dowden. Actually, for such a rare surname in the UK, I have get quite a few google-relatives: a Dr RV Dowden, a surgeon in Ohio who specialises in boob jobs; numerous academics (including the President of Huntington College); Edward Dowden (1843-1913), an Irish poet; a rather odd close-harmony female voice outfit; and my namesake, James Dowden, mayor of Bridgewater, NJ. All I need now is for a town to be named after me...
My only Google relative of note is the director of the Centre for Entrepreneurship at the University of Stirling in Scotland. He's done quite a bit of writing. A close-but-not-quite one is a Brazilian pro surfer named Peterson Rosa, who seems to go by just Peter.
The Avenue in Manhattan was named for the battle at the request of Samuel Ruggles, developer of Gramercy Park.
Sounds logical.
Now that is really interesting, since the Mayflower pilgrims had links to that part of Nottinghamshire. I guess subtalker sleuthing may have found the correct answer!
Incidentally, an old-fashioned but still pleasant-tasting variety of apple called the Laxton Superb originated in Laxton, Notts, and the main British variety of cooking apple, the Bramley, also originated in Notts, at Southwell. But now we're *way* off-topic....
Probably named for the same William Houstoun as the New York street, as he was a Georgian.
Shalom from Tel Aviv. Andy
Any idea why it's there? I'm guessing it's undergoing repairs.
-Julian
-Julian
Apparently the campaign has been cutting into business. One passenger on my B train this morning was walking from car to car collecting the ads. All other ads were left untouched.
And they probably figure that the occasional arrest is just a cost of doing business, no big deal.
Swipers are like the pot dealers in Washington Square Park, who operate openly despite a heavy police presence. Arresting them simply isn't worth the effort.
How about prodding them with cattle prods.
Get some of those soldiers back from Iraq, maybe they have some ideas.
: (
Why do you say that? The ACLU isn't in favor of crime, believe it or not. Do you have any citation from them that suggests they don't consider selling swipes to be theft?
Except if your David Lee Roth
LOW profile??? They're as brazen as you could imagine, soliciting their "business" even when cops are nearby.
It is completely beyond comprehension to imagine that the cops in Washington Square Park don't notice the pot dealers. I can easily spot them even before they approach me, and I don't have the training and experience in spotting suspicious activities that cops do.
What is far more likely is that the cops don't bother arresting the dealers because it would be pointless. Any dealers who get caught will be back in the park within a few ays, none the worse for wear.
They walk around the park saying "Smoke?".
I don't know how people got hold of the cards. Stolen in a booth robbery?
Maybe they had a computer friend who had a device that could encode cards.
Was that the scam where people put a vertical fold in a certain place on each card?
I heard thus scam centered somewhere on the D line a few stops north of 161/River.
I recall hearing about this scam. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who bought one of those cards must've been an idiot.
Hopefully alot of these customers would get a TA detective contacting them to ask a few questions about the card.
I agree. Anyone that would give $40 to a stranger on the street for a metrocard is an idiot. When things sound too good to be true (i.e. an $80 card for $40) they are.
I can understand someone paying for one swipe to avoid a line, but anything more than that has scam written all over it.
Has this become more of a problem recently?
I think there are proably many trips that last less than 18 minutes, especially for transfers and such (a trip from my house to school uses two buses, and takes about 20 minutes - less than 10 minutes between one bus and the other.
Mark
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
No problem. The 18 minute rule only applies if you board the same bus line twice, or enter the same subway station twice, within 18 minutes. If the two buses are on different lines you are not blocked.
-Broadway Buffer
F Y I, 4traintowoodlawn is only 11 years old (by his own admission).
-Broadway Buffer
Listen Allan, I didn't mean to insult you, but you must look at all the possibilities out there of who this/these person(s) might be. I only suggested that it might possibly be a Subtalker, because I was just trying to see if anyone might fess up to it. U think that maybe a Subtalker who from what some of us say, just posts things to make fun of railfans, might possibly be one of the people who is doing this. DefJef is who I'm reffering to if you haven't already figured it out.
So now we have three possible suspects: 4traintowoodlawn, DefJef, and yourself of course (Allan).
-Broadway Buffer
Would you stop with the damn blame game! All you're doing is stirring up trouble by mindlessly making accusations that Subtalkers are stealing. I understand that it could be, but I doubt that someone who loves trains (especially an 11 year old like 4traintowoodlawn) would go around stealing ads. It makes no sense, so quite worrying about it.
West End LCL
Oh, and say high to your brother Allan for me. You're so much like him except he has a much better vocabulary. Is flowering the best you got!
-Broadway Buffer
This site filters fuck into flower.
It has to be low-and-slow accumulating, does it not?
hainault
so it's US work with THEM.... when THEM can't work with US on photography???????????????
1Mutuality9
IF ONLY this gospel were to be written within mta.info
not only would THEY gain.... but we'd get 1 monkey off our toes.
Buy a few $7 Fun Passes, which are good for unlimited rides throughout the day. Take old, spent MetroCards and jam them in the cash and coin slots of the MetroCard Vending Machines at busy stations during rush hour, such as 86th Street/Lexington Avenue. Then, as the line for the station agent's booth gets unbelievably long, sell people swipes for $2 (works even better at 86th and Lex southbound because half of the entranceway is under construction). For an initial investment of $7, in and hour and 12 minutes you can make back your money. If you buy more cards, you can make even more money, because you don't have to wait 18 minutes between swipes. Those who do this consistently buy 30-day Unlimited cards because they eventually cost even less per ride. However, if the TA were smart, they would notice the same 30-day being used for multiple days at the same entrance(s) and void that card.
hainault
DONT.......... HOLD........... YOUR........... BREATH.......... brah.
Those ads aren't exactly POCKET SIZED.... where did the ads go after take down?
I'm still surprised this bagger managed to do it...
most the "ad frames" i see are bolted down with a screw...
Damn old hippos.
Tho whose to say those poster-changers cant rotate terminals??
My original point in mentioning VCP and Pelham was to say
DOESN'T THE B LINE HAVE PEEEEEEPS AT THE TERMINALS WHO CHECK
(and stock) THE IN-CAR ADVERTISEMENTS??
But of course human nature being human nature it doesn't matter that this is illegal and akin to stealing...I say arrest the people who allow others to swipe them in too and if people thought they could possibly be arrested for this, then it would stop.
About a year ago, I was exiting the Jay Street station and somebody on the other side of the turnstile asked me to swipe him in. To this day, I believe it was an undercover cop. Of course, I don't look like a tough hombre and like most other undercover stings, they only go for the meek and mild looking people who would, in their opinion, not cause them any trouble.
But a few plainsclothesmen at the stations where this is occurring along with closed circuit television would go a long way to ending this crap.
London's financial district (the square mile called "the City") wants a one-seat ride from the Docklands to Heathrow airport via the City. And the Government has said that Crossrail cannot be built without a big contribution from the private sector.
In much the same way that some elements in New York's financial district clamor for a one-seat ride from JFK and/or Long Island.
Exactly, and those elements only became civic minded when told that there was no alternative!
One difference is that the push for a JFK-Downtown connection didn't arise (as far as I know) until after 9/11. In some sense it's a knee-jerk reaction to the economic dislocations caused by the attacks.
It should go without saying that 9/11's economic effects will have long since dissapated by the time a connection could be built.
The argument is a business one - construction of CrossRail will lead to economic growth, to the benefit of both business and the Treasury (in extra taxes). It hasn't got much to do with public spirit or with support for transit per se.
Anyway, don't we have the right to up business rates without business giving permission? I say bleed the buggers dry.
6 track Shenfield Line to Romford (plenty of space most of the way).
Extend W&C line to Romford & Upminster on centre tracks.
Southend line takes on southern tracks, and adds stations from Romford to Shenfield.
Chelmsford Line takes on northern tracks.
4-track Piccadilly Line from Northfields to Heathrow. Non-stop Piccadilly Line at Turnham Green (permanently), Barons Court, and Gloucester Road.
Extend Central Line to District Line Richmond branch.
Return District Line to South Harrow and Uxbridge.
Remind businessment that excercise is good for them, and the interchange at Green Park to get from Heathrow to Docklands will stave off heart disease etc.
'Sort out transport mess'
By Joe Murphy And Ross Lydall, Evening Standard
19 May 2004
Pressure today mounted on the Government to back London's Olympic bid with a clear commitment to sort out the capital's creaking transport system.
It followed a warning from the International Olympic Committee that London would not be awarded the 2012 Games unless dramatic infrastructure improvements were made.
The IOC, which will select the winning host city next year, highlighted the problems of getting athletes from the Olympic village in east London to venues such as Wimbledon, Wembley and Lord's.
It was also concerned that the plan to run shuttle services along the new Channel Tunnel link from St Pancras to Stratford was not properly thought through.
The concerns were aired as the IOC placed London on a shortlist of five competing cities yesterday, alongside Paris, Madrid, New York and Moscow.
Today leading Conservatives, Liberal Democrats and Labour MPs joined forces to urge the Government to increase the chance of Olympic success by giving the go-ahead for projects such as the £1 billion East London line extension.
There was also cautious hope for a decision on Crossrail - the £10 billion east-west rail line that would link Heathrow with Stratford and the Isle of Dogs - though many believe the Games can be won without it being built.
Conservative mayoral candidate Steve Norris said it was time for ministers to prove they were serious about the Olympics and the massive regeneration it could bring to deprived east London.
He said: "It's time for the Government to put their money where their mouth is. All we have had so far are warm words from Labour ministers but no actual money."
Former Labour culture secretary Chris Smith, MP for Islington South and Finsbury, said: "The competition is going to be very stiff but we have got a good chance. We have to do everything we possibly can to make it work."
Ealing North MP Steve Pound said most London MPs believed transport was a problem for the London Games bid.
"If we can get the transport infrastructure sorted, it will not just be for the Olympics but for life," he said. "The IOC have just passed the baton to the Chancellor and he needs to spring to the finishing line now."
Sir Robin Wales, Labour chairman of the Association of London Government, said it was important not to play down Stratford's already good links.
It is served by the Jubilee and Central lines, DLR, North London line and suburban rail lines from Liverpool Street, with an international Channel Tunnel station soon to open.
Sir Robin said: "We have got very good transport links. But clearly it's an opportunity to step back and have a good look at what we need to win the bid."
However, he was reluctant to demand openly that the Government give the immediate goahead for Crossrail and the East London line. "It will be an area of considerable debate," he said.
Transport Secretary Alistair Darling has promised to deliver "outstanding" transport for the Olympics. He rejected warnings that the bid could be held back by concern about traffic and rail links. "London's transport can and will deliver outstanding transport for the Olympic Games in 2012," he said.
This in spite of the fact that the £1 billion East London line extension would go nowhere near the Olympic sites.
Why on earth would anyone want to get from New Cross to Dalston anyway?
I rode the East London Line from Canada Water to Shoreditch on my trip to London last January. It was fairly late on a rainy Sunday evening, not what you'd think to be a busy time on the Tube, yet the train seemed quite crowded, to my surprise.
Not much doubt there ...
Going back to the ELL, while I didn't really explore the area above-ground, I have the impression that East London is generally a bit run-down. Could the ELL extension really be a (possibly misguided) economic development initiative rather than a transit project per se?
Dalston to Canary Wharf is currently eight stops and one change (Hackney, Homerton, Hackney Wick, Stratford, Change to Jubilee, West Ham, Canning Town, North Greenwich, Canary Wharf).
With ELLX, Dalston to Canary Wharf would be nine stops and one change (Haggerston, Hoxton, Shoreditch, Whitechapel, Shadwell, Wapping, Rotherhithe, Canada Water, Change to Jubilee, Canary Wharf).
Not much improvement at all.
That whole area used to be the Surrey Docks.
For a map of the area showing where the docks were (including Canada Dock), and also the Isle of Dogs, see here.
The bigger docks, including the Victoria and Albert and the King George V dock were further downstream.
This is the only part of Docklands that is south of the river. The old Surrey Docks station on the ELL was renamed Surrey Quays, and Canada Water was a new station added to provide interchange between the ELL and the Jubilee Line extension.
It might have more purpose if it were made an extension of the H&C Line and the Northern section abandoned.
Why on earth would anyone want to get from New Cross to Dalston anyway?
You're beginning to sound like Thatcher...
If these so-called transport experts took the trouble to look at a map, they would see that the ELL extension is irrelevant.
>>>The East London Line Project (formerly known as ELLX) will extend and upgrade the existing (London Underground Limited) East London Line, converting it into a new metro-style (National Rail) train service.
So, does that mean they are going to take an existing tube line and convert it to National Rail (er, non-Underground mainline rail service).
And, umm, wouldn't that kinda suck?
The East London line is a very old underground line with tunnels big enough for mainline trains. The extension plan is to link it physically with commuter lines (some disused). It's not a bad idea in principle, but the line runs through some very poor areas. Mayor Livingstone likes it because he says it will stimulate "regeneration" (slum clearance).
Personally I don't think much of it as a billion pound investment. Its main virtue was that it was supposed to be cheap.
I'm amazed that the newspapers are just accepting this, and I would be interested to know the locations of their offices. I know that Murdoch is located in Wapping, but the Evening Standard is not one of his.
Private Eye is always interested in public sector projects that go wrong. I might have a go at contacting them. This ELL madness has got to stop because it is holding up extensions that do matter.
BTW my Waterloo & City Line grand scheme would take it from Harrow to Paddington, Victoria, Waterloo, Liverpool Street, Stratford and Shenfield. That would give the politicians the direct link they want.
Stratford is the proposed Olympic focal point but there are other venues; the ELL and its extensions avoid all of them.
If they think the ELL extension is going to help the Olympic bid, either the senior politicians are deluding themselves or they are deluding the public. In either case they should be exposed as incompetent or fraudulent.
The rolling stock would use third rail in the south and fourth rail on the centre and north. Parts of the line would be shared with commuter rail. Those problems can be solved. But the main problem is that it doesn't serve the central business district.
I agree with you in principle, but this particular line doesn't seem worth a big investment because it doesn't serve any important business or entertainment destinations. At best it could one day become part of an orbital line (an outer circle).
Also the ELL extension is competing for funds against more important projects such as Crossrail, Thameslink 2000, and more useful extensions to the underground. The Bakerloo, Victoria and Northern tubes could all be extended to the south.
Then run the following services:
AIRPORTS:
- Stratford LL, West Hampstead, Ealing Broadway, Heathrow Central, Heathrow Terminal 4. AC electric loco-hauled service.
- Stratford LL, Whitechapel, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport. DC EMU service.
- Stratford HL, Tottenham Hale, Broxbourne, Stansted Airport.
- Luton Airport Parkway, (reverse at Acton Wells Junction) Stratford LL. Class 47 + Mk II Stock.
VENUES:
- Stratford LL, Highbury & Islington, Finsbury Park, Alexandra Palace. AC EMU service.
- Stratford LL, Whitechapel, Peckham Rye, Clapham Junction (Windsor Lines), Richmond, Staines, Woking, Brookwood (bus shuttle to Bisley), Aldershot. DC EMU service.
[Broxbourne - use Stansted Airport service]
- Stratford LL, Whitechapel, Peckham Rye, Clapham Junction (Windsor Lines), Richmond, Staines, Windsor & Eton Riverside. DC EMU service. Alternative loco-hauled diesel service: Stratford LL, Highbury & Islington, West Hampstead, Willesden Junction HL, Ealing Broadway, Slough, Windsor & Eton Central.
[ExCel, Greenwich Park use DLR]
- Stratford LL, (via Primrose Hill and Trent Valley) Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay HL, Wigan NW, Preston, Carlisle, Mount Florida (for Hampden Park), Glasgow Central. Class 90 + Mk III.
[Horse Guards Parade - use Central and District Lines.]
[Hyde Park - use Central Line.]
[Lord's - use Jubilee Line.]
- Stratford LL, West Hampstead, Ealing Broadway, Reading, Swindon, Bristol Parkway, Newport, Cardiff Central (for Millennium Stadium). HST service.
- Stratford LL, (via Primrose Hill and Trent Valley) Stoke-on-Trent, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Trafford Park (for Old Trafford).
[Regent's Park - use Central and H&C Lines.]
- Stratford LL, Finsbury Park, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle (for St James's Park).
[for Swinley Forest use Windsor & Eton service.]
[for The Dome use Jubilee Line.]
- Stratford LL, (via Primrose Hill) Watford Junction, Rugby, Coventry, B'ham Int'l, Witton (for Villa Park). Class 90 + Mk III.
- Stratford LL, Highbury & Islington, West Hampstead, Willesden Junction HL, (reverse at Acton Wells Junction) Wembley Stadium. DMU service.
- Stratford LL, Whitechapel, Peckham Rye, Clapham Junction (Windsor Lines), Richmond, Staines, Woking, Southampton AP, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, Bournemouth, Weymouth. DC EMU service.
- Stratford LL, Whitechapel, Peckham Rye, Clapham Junction (Windsor Lines), Wimbledon Park, Wimbledon (District). DC EMU service.
[for Windsor Park use Windsor & Eton service.]
[for UEL use DLR.]
Then run the following services: AIRPORTS: (four of them) VENUES: (twenty three of them)
Wow! That's an impressive list. So the 2012 London Olympics would be held all over Britian including Wales and Scotland.
It shows that you can reach practically anywhere by rail from Stratford. The Borough of Hackney wants the Dalston east curve reopened; they put the cost at £30 million. Making more use of the North London line makes good sense, especially given that it has (at Hackney Wick) the closest station to the Olympic village. Some freight trains would be rerouted.
I think it's a good idea to provide special trains rather than build permanent lines in the hopes of winning the Olympic bid.
Many spectators would stay in hotels, and AFAIK there aren't many hotels in Stratford. There might be more demand to get to the venues from hotels than from Stratford. Of course most London hotels are already well served by existing rail services.
I think the main point that you have illustrated is the scattered locations of the venues in the "London" Olympic bid, a fault found by the IOC. Another fault was London's slow road network, having few expressways. Apparently the athletes themselves would be whisked around in vehicles licensed to run red lights, to prevent them from getting stuck in traffic.
Two articles from the StarTribune:
Tracking down light-rail flaws and fixes is taking time
Laurie Blake, Star Tribune - May 16, 2004
Rail cars are arriving for the Hiawatha light-rail line with design and workmanship problems that must be corrected.
Metro Transit says the problems are fixable and not a serious threat to public safety. It considers the repairs headaches, not show-stoppers, said Joe Marie, assistant general manager for rail operations.
Likewise, car builder Bombardier Transportation of Canada concedes that "issues have been found with the cars" but describes them as a "normal and routine" part of producing a new rail car design.
Article Continues at:
http://www.startribune.com/stories/368/4777474.html
-----
Fixes squeeze light rail: Tests, car repairs could cut June debut close,
but officials say they'll make it
Laurie Blake, Star Tribune - May 16, 2004
The seemingly smooth-running Hiawatha light-rail project is -- and has been -- struggling to stay on schedule.
Metro Transit officials maintain they will meet the June 26 opening date for the first phase of the new $715 million line. Yet interviews and documents obtained by the Star Tribune indicate they will be cutting it close.
Bombardier Transportation, the Canadian company building the trains, is months behind delivering them and to date is facing $400,000 in fines.
Delivery delays have compressed the time to test performance, fix nagging design faults and correct poor workmanship on the cars.
Article Continues at:
http://www.startribune.com/stories/368/4777707.html
(Be sure to click on the charts/images for more information.)
Well, it's BOMBardier, what did you expect?
I just hope their aicraft aren't as flakey...
Second, I think Bombardier does a fine job up here.
So I wish them luck, hope it works, Minneapolis given its winters really NEEDS working mass transit. I'll be looking forward to riding it next time I'm out there. :)
How about the amber light directly below the reds?
Do the red lights also go on and off with the key in the panel elsewhere on the train, or does the toggle affect the lights? The reason I ask is that I'm pretty sure I've seen instances where both reds are on and then a while later, one is out, with the train in motion and presumably all doors closed.
I've witnessed this on the LIRR, but I strongly doubt that the door controls are any different in the "northern division."
HOPEFULLY!
Just about anything you want to learn about the Second Av Subway can be found below.
MTA's 2 Av Subway FEIS
nycsubway.org's SAS Section
-Chris
Also if you search the archives of this board you will find that the plan is to build it the SAS stages. Stage one is from 57th St to 96th St followed by stage two from 96th St to 125th St. Those two stages are together known as the "stubway".
Some think that only the stubway will be built. When that happens, the plan is to extend the Q train along it, providing a useful alternative to the crowded Lexington line. The final stage of the SAS would reach downtown, possibly in 2020.
Yes that's what the MTA MESA study concluded, but the politicians insisted on a "full length" subway.
Perhaps the MTA had a better idea of what was really needed. Besides some tunnels already exist in the northern section.
As for building in separate sections rather than starting in one place and moving outward, it's faster that way.
It's even worse. The first proposals for the SAS date all the way back to the early 1920's.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Chuck Greene
I have to do a test at the Bronx High School of Science.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
See ya at stuy :-P
Earlier this year, they (my school, MS 141) did a Specialixed High Schools thing and I was one of those chosen as eligible for the Bx. H.S. of Sci.
This summer, I have to do test prep classes, and May 22, I have to go to the Bx. H.S. of Sci. for health tests (?).
However, as y'all know, I'm 11 (6th grade) and I'm not in high school yet. This is just preparation.
But, as in the words of ( 1 ) South Ferry ( 9 ), Back to trainz, brahz.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Everyone is eligible to apply. Your school is screwing with this system. You have to apply in the eighth grade. I don't know what these health test are about, but it all sounds like some scam your school is pulling.
If I explained more, I'd have to get down to the nitty gritty of it, and I'm too lazy to do it. :-P
But it is NOT a scam. Don't worry, dude.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Not quite impossible Chris. WE could always hook up the South Brooklyn diesels and run over the Bay Ridge Branch to reach the Eastern Division. Now that would be a great fantrip.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Wow, you ain't kidding! I know that'll probably never happen, but in the unlikely event that happened and I missed it seeing that I will be out of town on Saturday so can't make the MOD trips, I would probably just have to go sit alone in a room somewhere in depressed mode for a few days after that...
How can you do that without the connection at New Lots Avenue, which has been severed for several years now?
Which connection? Do you mean the one from at Livonia Avenue on the Canarsie Line? Has it been severed? I know that the one from the IRT is still intact.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Your pal,
Fred
This was on May 1, this year. L trains loading on the J platform.
Your pal,
Fred
How sweet it would be if that were the case...currently any delay anywhere on the line fouls up the whole line for hours.
Your pal,
Fred
How about the Canarsie to Bdwy Jct, then switch to the J tracks there?
Sounds like a "plan", but the trains still can't magically get over the WillyB even if they say "L" instead of "J". The ONLY access for any of the Eastern Division lines is from the Willy B, and that includes the J, M, and L lines. The Canarsie-Broadway flyover does nothing to make the L have a way out or in other than the WIllyB. The trains still must use the Willy B. That unless they go in or our via diesel and the LIRR Bay Ridge line which is HIGHLY unlikely to happen for a fantrip.
How about the Canarsie to Bdwy Jct, then switch to the J tracks there?
Sounds like a "plan", but the trains still can't magically get over the WillyB even if they say "L" instead of "J". The ONLY access for any of the Eastern Division lines is from the Willy B, and that includes the J, M, and L lines. The Canarsie-Broadway flyover does nothing to make the L have a way out or in other than the WIllyB. The trains still must use the Willy B. That unless they go in or our via diesel and the LIRR Bay Ridge line which is HIGHLY unlikely to happen for a fantrip.
How about the Canarsie to Bdwy Jct, then switch to the J tracks there?
Sounds like a "plan", but the trains still can't magically get over the WillyB even if they say "L" instead of "J". The ONLY access for any of the Eastern Division lines is from the Willy B, and that includes the J, M, and L lines. The Canarsie-Broadway flyover does nothing to make the L have a way out or in other than the WIllyB. The trains still must use the Willy B. That unless they go in or our via diesel and the LIRR Bay Ridge line which is HIGHLY unlikely to happen for a fantrip.
That was my first thought, followed by the idea of walking across the WB.
Is the nature of the WB situation such that they can't squeeze one train crossing out of the whole day?
Your pal,
Fred
til next time
--Mark
Enjoy!
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I'm not sure what they did between the 1939-1940 Worlds Fair (when they ran on today's #7 line) and the mid 50s when 3rd Avenue service was truncated to the Bronx.
wayne
The Steinway could maintain track speed, probably beacuse they ran in all-motor trains whereas the LO-V's usally hauled around three trailers. The Lo-V's were fast cars though and in a one on one race would probably outrun a Steinway.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In 1942 with the abandonement of the 2 Avenue El a number of regular Lo-V's (motors only,no trailers) were sent over to Queens to cover the now protect the service. It would be interesting to hear how they compared to the Steinways on the grades.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I saw them on the Lex Ave Local in the early 1950's.
They ran on the Flushing Line from 1938 until 1950 when they were reassigned to the #6 Lexington-Pelham Line. They served there until the arrival of the R-17's in the mid 50's after which they could be found on the #2 7 Avenue-Bronx Express and the 42 Street Shuttle.
In 1962 they were assigned to the 3 Avenue Local (Rt #8 after 11/67) where they ran unti November 1969.
I don't know about the Flushing Line but when used on the #6 and the #2 there were at times mixed in trains with the standard Steinways.
Only one remains,5655.
Larry,RedbirdR33
* After accelaration, which was slow compared to the R types on the local tracks.
There's a concrete pedestrian bridge over the RR that used to be a good spot but now has the Amtrak high obstruction so it's only good for, well, crossing the tracks. There's a small window through the trees that works ok.
First off I heard a rumble to the east and suddenly a P&W freight rumbled through, which is a daily occurence, but I've never seen this by eye.
Shortly after, I heard a train coming from the west but it sounded kind of loud. No wonder - it was this:
An Amtrak F40 with 3 SW7's and a gondola, nice and noisy.
I left there and headed west to Old Saybrook to catch a view of the river when I noticed there was some problem with the retracting catenary on the CT River Bridge and then saw a 'stuck' P&W freight(same locomotives) stopped on the eastbound track waiting for the bridge signal to clear. It did and the train headed east, followed by this:
The good old Amtrak pickup.
Fun coupla hours for me and hope you enjoyed seeing something a bit different, in these parts anyway.
Your pal,
Fred
Your pal,
Fred
Think that is where the railfan bug bit me. Dad used to take the family to the Rocky Neck beach. There is a bridge that goes across the tracks that I would hange out at.
E-mail me, and if you use Outlook or Outlook Express for mail, I've got a fantastic spam fighter - 100% effective.
There are four blackhole service running on it, stopping a total of 500-700 spams a day. There is also a locally maintained blacklist, and finally a local spam filter (That I check Manually for false positives against an adittional 50-100 hits a day) and still average about 50 spams incoming into my local Outlook application. That uses "Spamfighter" which is about 90% effective, and has not yet had a false positive.
Elias
Here's the list of vehicles:
6:15 am - 403 bus from Collings and White Hore Pike to Camden Rand Transit Center.[Flx-3156]
6:41 am - RiverLINE from WRTC Camden to Trenton Station [Car 3515-part of a two car train. Didn't get the number of the other car]
7:50 am - NEC Train 3928 from Trenton to Newark - This was the bad trip. First car 6528 {an new Alsthom car] looked like shit. The interior destination sign looked like it was going to fall down at any time, part was held up [barely] with duct tape. Then the train encountered cantenary wire problems at Rahway, that added 35 minutes to an express trip that started with only 3 stops, then non-stop to Newark.
9:25 am - PATH 872 - Trip to WTC. The open area around the station is somewhat jarring, but I see the all-important signs of renewed re-building. When I no longer see daylight when the train reatces WTC, then I feel that progress is being made.
10:30 am - RTS 9194 M6 - After breakfast, had a 20 minute wait for this bus. Rode to 42 St.
11:20 am - D train to the Bronx [rode an R68, didn't get the car number]. Got off at 167 because I forgot where to get the Bx40/42.
11:40 am - Flyer 5720 Bx1 from 167/Concourse to Burnside Ave/Concourse.
12:00 noon - Flyer 5378 Bx40 From Concourse to W.Farms. 5378 had an orange LED front, and the usual flip-dot side sign. I didn't think they worked together. The bus also looked like shit as well.
12:50 pm - Orion 228 Q44 bus - Broken destination sign. Nodded off and on during the trip to Jamaica Queens.
2:10 pm - RTS 8173 Q31. Unre-powered RTS. Went to 169-Hillside. Tried that new Caribbean Fast Food place [Golden Crust], had a tasty, but spicy lunch, and finished the meal on the F train.
2:45 pm - F train - Car 5500 [R46]. Rode from 169 St to 42 St. Finished my lunch on the train.
3:25 pm - B train - car 4532 [R40m] hogged the Railfan window from 42 St to Kings Hwy. Got off to get some caffeine in me.
4:05 pm - Q train - car 5029 [R68a] Kings Highway to Prospect Park.
4:18 pm - B Train - car 4544 [R40m] Prospect Park to Atlantic Ave.
4:30 pm - 4 train - car 1182 [R142S] As I was riding this line, I remembered the old Redbirds that used to dominate on this and all of the other IRT lines. Now the R142's will be the new Redbirds [go ahead, curse me, damn me to hell for saying such blasphemy]. Rode from Atlantic Ave to Grand Central.
5:15 pm - After taking in the atmosphere in GC at 5PM , went to get on a Penn Station Bus. It was RTS 9522 on the M4. Got off at Herald Sq and walked to Penn Station Faster than the bus got there due to traffic.
5:43 pm - NJT NEC train 3965. Made this train with a minute to spare no thanks to the PIECE OF SHIT TICKET VENDING MACHINE. It refused to read my Visa debit card, and they are slow to boot. No wonder the NJT customer service person tried to calm me down. [I attracted her attention by loudly dropping F-bombs at the machine]
This was the GOOD trip. The train left Penn Station at 5;43, stopped at Newark at 6 pm, then FLEW like a rocket to Princeton Jct. The only bad thing [it wasn't that bad], was that car 5369 was a bit too hot. But when the train moved, the temperature got a little more bearable.
7:00 pm - RiverLINE car 3516. Uneventful trip from Trenton to Camden WRTC.
8:14 PM - 400 bus Flx 3149. Used this line because I had to wait 45 minutes for the next 403. Even with the 9 block walk, I'd get home before the 403 would get to Camden, and I got home while there was still a little daylight left. Rode from WRTC to Collings and Mt. Ephraim.
Now what do you think of that trip?
The incorrect spelling of "busses" is intentional - that is how some of the signs state it.
--Mark
I prefer buses as the plural of bus.
Avid streetcar fans abhor buses, for the rather obvious reasons.
Myrtle and 3rd Ave els were replaced by a bus, so the bus is a sometimes bad word among subway/elevated fans.
2nd
NOM bus bi
GEN bi borum
DAT bo bis
ACC bum bos
ABL bo bis
VOC be bi
4th
NOM bus bus
GEN bus buum
DAT bui bibus
ACC bum bus
ABL bu bibus
I'd cite the following poem as an argument for bus to be 2nd declension:
What is this that roareth thus?
Can it be a Motor Bus?
Yes, the smell and hideous hum
Indicat Motorem Bum!
Implet in the Corn and High
Terror me Motoris Bi:
Bo Motori clamitabo
Ne Motore caedar a Bo--
Dative be or Ablative
So thou only let us live:
Whither shall thy victims flee?
Spare us, spare us, Motor Be!
Thus I sang; and still and still anigh
Came in hordes Motores Bi,
Et complebat omne forum
Copia Motorum Borum.
How shall wretches live like us
Cincti Bis Motoribus?
Domine, defende nos
Contra hos Motores Bos!
In the ones I had (Civis Romanus/Mentor), the order was Nom, Voc, Acc, Gen, Dat, Abl, Loc.
Perhaps because buses have been a wholly destructive force on the thing that thing which most of the posters on this board cherish, the passenger train. It's little surprise that people on Bustalk don't get bothered by the mention of trains, they're still winning, for now.
On every level buses are responsible for the destruction of our efficient electric, coal and oil powered rail network and it's replacement with a vastly less efficient and strictly oil run network of highways and bus routes. It was a coldly calculating plot on the part of GM, NCL killed off the trolley lines while Greyhound picked apart the interurbans, and the National Highway Users Conference (the founders of what we now know as the Highway lobby) spread the seeds for the downfall of the very railroads that built this country, in the form of the interstate highway system. All this so that GM could move a few more dozen cars a month and Alfred Sloan's (CEO of GM at the time that the NCL plans were put into action) stock could go up a few points.
The bus itself was and remains a bastardization of the car and a trolley, combining the worst of both. They were inefficient, less comfortable and bigger polluters when compared to a trolley, yet exhibited less freedom and privace when compared to a car. They were sold by NCL for the explicit purpose of providing plausible deniability for the National City Lines managers to shut down transit systems all across this country, since they after all removed the "old" trolleys and replaced them with smaller, smellier buses, why we wouldn't ride them was our fault not theirs. They slashed service, raised fares, and sold off everything nailed down. When people stopped riding because the schedule sucked and the fare was too high, the route would be cut and the people who REALLY needed the route would be left out in the cold. These tactics forced us to buy cars. GM profiteered off the destruction of some 500,000,000,000 dollars and 50 years of infrastructure investment, through it's National City Lines, Greyhound, and Yellow Coach subsidiaries. In the end they were charged the whopping sum of six thousand dollars by congress for their involvement.
Think of how much easier your life would be if the old Camden trolley lines still existed and had been expanded at a rate coincident with a moderate growth in the suburbs. That is, not the explosion of subsidized housing we saw after world war two, but a more modest growth outward as logic would dictate. We still had to provide housing for newly independent men and women coming off the war, but they don't ALL have to live in the suburbs. Imagine having a competitive railroad network, not one legislated out of existence by antiquated and hostile tax laws, and outright driven out of business by the subsidizing of the interstate highway system. Admittedly the airliner still would have taken it's place as the top-rung in intercity travel, but we'd have a viable competitor to commuter airlines, and overnight sleeper trains probably could still duke it out with intercity flights. Imagine having the ability to travel off the beaten paths of the country without the need for a car, the old interurban networks at one time completely paralleled the mainlines, albeit by more roundabout routes, but still you could do NYC-Chicago in two or three days without using a Class 1 railroad.
Just stop and think of all the great infrastructure improvements to mass transit that we missed out on because the bus and the highway lobby came along; the IND 2nd system, the Roosevelt Ave Subway, and the Henry Ave Subway are but three in two cities, no doubt there were many more. Stop and think about how many track miles of infrastructure were lost in the 1950s for no good reason, Los Angeles Railways is but one large example, something that today would virtually cure their traffic woes. The same scene was repeated over and over all across the country on differing scales but with equal totality in their destruction. Perhaps if you (and all busfans) consider this, then you'll have something close to an idea why your mention of bus trips brings out some harsh feelings on this particular board.
America doesn't have, and never had any love affair with the automobile (or it's drinking buddy, the bus), we were slipped a rufie, told everything would be alright, and woke up in bed to find the fat ugly person with thick glasses, acne, and a dental appliance smiling at us gloatingly. But by then (the 1970s or so) they had ingratiated themselves into our way of life, and are now irrevocably linked with our transportation schemes.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Well so ends my diatribe. I swear everything I have written here is true as far as I know it, this isn't some crazy railfan dream, this really happened. If you want more information on it, I'd recommend "Taken For A Ride" a documentary on the NCL monopoly from PBS, you might be able to buy it from them. If not email me and I'll see what I can do.
Cars 1101 through 1250 are not R142S's. They are Bombardier R142's which have been numbered out of sequence (don't ask). The R142S's are being built by Kawasaki anyway, and their numbers will be 7731 through 7810, I believe.
-It all started in 1904 with the bas reliefs and elaborate mosaics at the Contract One stations:
-In the late teens and 1920's, one of the first evolutions was the loss of the bas reliefs and changing to all tile (mosaic) decoration which came into play during the dual contracts:
(This is actually the mosaic replacement of one of the destroyed bas reliefs when they made an underpass at 28th St)
Typical Dual Contract tile:
-In the 1930's came the first major evolution in tile decoration with the dawn of the IND. The classic IND tile reflects heavily the clean crisp simpicity of the depression era. As Pig stated, the IND classic design is actually a play on the already simpified Dual Contract tile. There was still a colored ceiling band, although now without mosaic, and the name tablets had a simplified mosaic design. Instead of the mosaic monograms in the tile band, the IND had repeating simplified tile monograms (or name) matching the simplified tile ceiling band:
Next came the local IRT extensions on the Lexington Line between Grand Central and Union Square and the Downtown sides of the local stations between Union Square and Brooklyn Bridge. These stations are clearly influenced by the IND, although a little more elaborate (remember the IRT was still a private company). The design is sort of a marrying of the IND look to the old Dual COntract look. These extensions do not match the original stations, however don't really clash with it either. At the same time, they added column encasings at these stations with the same font as the mosaics on the extensions. These column encasings sort of pulled together the old part of the stations with the extensions, making very attractive stations.
It is very easy to see the IND influence in it:
1930's tile column encasings:
-With the 1940's came the war. The post WWII stations still retained the IND look, although it had evolved a bit into the "new style" IND tile. Gone was the small shiney tile, and a larger rougher sort of tile replaced it, although the classic IND look was still very noticable:
-The early 1950's saw the "new style" IND tile change to verticle positioning:
-This brings us finally to the late 1950's and to the platform extension tiles which were the start of the thread linked above. This is a further evolution of the IND tile. The colored band and repeating names remained, although they were moved into the band, and the mosiac name tablets finally left the walls after almost 6 decades:
-Then came the late 1960's and early 1970's which finally lost the look of the IND (and the foundations of the IRT and BMT too). The "tile" evolved from the "new style" large tile to a simplified polished "refrigerator (cement block) tile" look, which is actually very much like the "new IND style" tiles as they were done in a tile fasion as opposed to the standard way you would "build a cement block wall". Still gone are mosaic tablets, just like the "1950's extension tile", but the color was actually taken away from the ceiling band and now placed where the station identification was placed:
-The late 70's and early 80's brought the end of consistency, and many different tests and looks came into play. While I find 49th Street rather interesting, some of the others are quite bad, such as 137th St and Hoyt: Interestingly, many of these renovations are also somehow connected. Just as the Broadway line's late 60's refrigerator tile covers over the old walls with a brick or block type of wall, so do the 70's and early 80's renovations. Examples would be old Cortlandt IRT, 49th St, Hoyt, 137th St, etc. So in all the "mayhem" there is still a design element that links it to that era, just like all the tile design before it had been connected:
-The 1980's also brought some of the worst design, and probably the most simplistic such as some horrendous renovations such as 23rd Lex in the fare control area. The 80's also brought floor tile (also at that station), and a more modern look, such as the Archer Ave stations. Even the Archer stations do have a connection to the "block" look that was common in the late 70's and early 80's"
-But renovations finally began to turn around as it was finally realized what a gem much of the artwork in the subway was. They still kept the "block syle" of the 70's, but actually preserved the mosaics, such as at Wall St and 51st Steet:
-Finally, the 1990's (well 1989) brought back a new phenomena....reproduction! The first reproductions or creation of mosaics were quite primitive, but the thought was there. The "simplicity" of just throwing up a metal sign was finally over. And Essex Street (and a small section of tile band at Graham Ave on the L by a utility room) led the way to the "repro" look, although is once again connected to the style before it....the cement block/brick look:
Finally, this brings us to the late 90's and the 2000's. Today, they have restored old mosaics where they could or recreating ones damaged as needed, removing the mistakes of the past. They have gotten quite good, and sometimes even recreate mosaics that were never even there to where they should have been!
(exact repro of 1930's extension tiles on 1950's side)
(photo by Broadway Junction)
So basically, every type of tile throughout the decades does have a chain that sort of connects all the different styles. Let's see if the 2nd AVe subway will have at least one link to them as to not finally break the chain after 100 years....
Are there any restored mosaics where mistakes from the past were removed ?
Excellent post !
Bill "Newkirk"
Hehehe. Just bad sentence structure - my 7th grade English teacher would be upset. I meant:
"Today they have removed the mistakes of the past [meaning bad renovations] by restoring old mosaics where they could, or recreating ones that had been damaged as needed".
Fulton and Broad got a Grecian design that is seen at other Nassau Line stations:
Other instances include things like the Canal St/Lex Line reproductions that imitated the 1930's tile over the horrible, totally clashing 1950's tile on the extension, as seen in my example in the original post in this thread.
Then there are places where they really corrected the "mistakes of the past" such as removing the foolish 1960's tile on the Broadway Line in Manhattan that covered over that lines intricate mosaics.
Finally, there are many examples throughout the system where they have painstakingly recreated mosaic bands and name tablets that were lost to either construction, water damage, etc.
wayne
Are you sure that Fulton, Broad and 8th Ave were mistakes ? At the time they were being built, the IND subway station was the norm in NYC as far as architecture went. It would have been cheaper to use the IND design rather than the more ornate BMT design. And this was the Great Depression, whether that figured in with the cost or not.
If the new IND design was considered state if the art, maybe the old BMT type was old hat.
Bill "Newkirk"
One thing I think is missing, though, is some reference to when they started using mosaic tile artwork in the stations. There's tons of examples now, but it seems to me that they're logical extensions of the tile mosaics already present in the system. So does anyone know what the first mosaic artwork installation was?
DO you mean the "new" mosaic artworks such as the murals at 36th St. Brooklyn, etc? If that's what you mean, I don't know for sure, but it had to be some time after 1989. Essex St's primitive mosaics (that are now being covered over) were the first attempt they made to make mosaics, and that was in the 1989 renovation. The Graham Ave recreation of a small piece of mosaic recreating the Canarsie line's ceiling band over a utility room at the extreme east end of the station was the first attempt I saw to actually "recreate" mosaics. They are also a bit primitive by today's standards, but much better than Essex. I don't have a photo of that, but that was in 1991. My guess would be that the mosaic artwork had to come some time after that point in 1991.
Going back in time, some of the earliest all-tile mosaics can be found on the Nassau Street line (Chambers, Canal, Bowery), ca.1913; and on the Fourth Avenue line (ca. 1913-15). Before that, they used a lot of cut-marble mosaics along with terra cotta elements. And they've even reproduced that - take a look at Atlantic Avenue IRT!
wayne
Doesn't it seem more logical that the transition went in this manner instead of the IRT tile afterwards?
Dual Contract:
IRT 1930's extension tile:
Classic IND:
wayne
If the IND copied the IND, that would make a lot of sense, as it would be a continual trend of simplification, whereas if the IRT copied the IND, that would be a brief spike in detail, before further simplification.
155th, 167th and 170th on the Concourse Line and York Street use wide, alternating brick-type tiles and date back to the same time the surrounding, "normal" stations were built.
I've asked why in the past, but didn't get an answer. York also has the station name in the tile band.
wayne
Also another transition was 57th St. 6th Av., which was the next stage after the 60's style in that it left out even the frieze band. Just all plain vertically rectangular tiles with the station name printed in black on the off-white tile.
Just imagine if 2nd Av. or even the 2nd system had opened around that time; then we'd have whole lines of that.
Your pal,
Fred
OK
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
But I think you left out one type. The early / mid-sixties which was very similar to the late 50's Spring Street you showed. Although there were no entire early sixties stations, there were numerous IRT extensions from 9 to 10 cars done during this period, such as extensions at Kingston and Nostrand Avenues. The difference being the tile was shinier and the lettering was white on a dark background rather than the other way around. It also clashes dramatically with the rest of the station and was built closer to the platform edge than the rest of the station, presumably to eventually allow for the entire station to be covered by this type of tile. Later extensions were built in line when it was realized that this would never happen. (Sorry, I don't have any photos and don't remember if the dark band was connected between the station names or not or even if these extensions still exist as they were built since I have not been back there in 25 years.)
The mid-sixties style is represented by the 57th Street / 6th Avenue Station and the Grand Street Stations which also used a shinier tile than the Spring Street type. Unlike the others, 57th Street doesn't have any dark band across the tiles.
Also, when the early 70's BMT renovations were completed (Prospect Ave, for example) I remember much criticism by architects at the time saying that the TA was covering up a treasure and that future archeologists would one day accidentally find the beautiful mosaics underneath. They stated that it would have mad much more sense just to restore and replicate the mosaics rather than cover them up.
Interestingly enough, we didn't have to wait for future archeologists to uncover the mosaics, because the TA realized their mistake in our lifetimes and actually started to remove these renovations and restore the original tile at most stations which were covered over just as the architects wanted them to do in the first place. I wonder if they plan to also "uncover" the 4th Avenue Line stations as they did with the Broadway Stations when funding is available.
As before, anyone who wants more detailed information on any of the tile bands colors can click on www.stationreporter.net here. The link will take you to the IRT tile list and at the bottom of the page, the links to the BMT and IND tile pages are available.
Newkirk Plaza David
www.stationreporter.net
So, are you suggesting that the R-32 F train with hand-crank signs be converted to the missing E-train and make an interval 30 minutes later than needed just so the R-train could sit for 30 minutes and wait to replace the F train so as not to go against your perception of how things need to be?
I ask this question for my train is the 1 and we from time to time get large gaps in service (very annoying when a 9 then comes along). I was wondering if there are gap trains on the 1 (or is it more a B division thing)?
Thanks
Why no napping? If they need me, they can call my cellphone and wake me.
It's in "DA RULES". Sleeping is a no-no.
If they need me, they can call my cellphone and wake me.
Do you actually get a signal at Times Sq spur or the middle track at 103?
thanks!
wayne
You scare me.
:)
That 4 car unit is out on the road. It was originally cannibalized for parts, but has since been re-fitted with parts created in-house and placed back into passenger service.
thanks in advance
wayne
"Subways in New York are suffocatingly hot, dirty, and crowded. And now-shades of Soviet Union or Communist China"it's illegal to take pictures of them."
I *suspect* that around that time, the MTA began requiring "professionals" to obtain a PERMIT before photography in the subways as far as "ancillary equipment" went perhaps. But touristas were snapping away unfettered otherwise back in those days. Maybe someone wants to check out when that "ancillary equipment" policy went into effect - I'll bet it was around then and that's what the article was complaining about.
--Mark
It wasn't as big as Brown V. The BoE but her case and victory paved the way for subway photography as we know it.
Now everybody does it!
Your pal,
Fred
Some nunklehead shot his flash camera into a motoman face and the MM overran the station (he may have also dumped air). Local 100 of the TWU backed the MM as it was not his fault, but the fault of the guy with the camera on TA property who blinded the motorman of a moving train. The TA legal people suggested a ban on photos, but the right people in the right places suggested the photo permit. During the process of getting one we had to sign a statement of understanding of what we can't do (no flash, no tripod, shoot only in public area). I was under 18 at the time and my parents had to sign a underage waiver that that was accepted ny the TA.
Yes it was a ban, until you got to the right channel, get your do and don'ts lesson, and the letter (later a wallet size card) was signed by the man in charge of Public Affairs and Community Relations stating you have been educated and agree to their terms.
Phil Hom
Stafford Virginia
(First TA photograph - Super Express 1964 NY World's Fair with a 126 B&W camera)
It also was the start of the era of "fee" use for TA property. So, you want to use a person riding a subway car advertising your product, well, it is not a MTA endorsement, but you'll have to pay us money.
George Cuhaj
Iola, WI
Admiring trains has been a refuge for generations of men. Now it can get
you a visit from the police
TIME magazine
May 24, 2004.
Every lunch hour, computer programmer John Almeida leaves his cubicle at
an insurance company outside Philadelphia and chases trains. He sets up
four video cameras on tripods beside the tracks and waits, listening to
his scanner. "I come out every day because history happens every day,"
he says. Almeida, a father of three, is a railfan — a hobbyist who
watches trains with the fastidiousness of a lab researcher. Over the
past 15 years, he has shot hundreds of hours of video and tens of
thousands of pictures. Call it what you will, it is hard to think of a
more benign hobby.
So it is all the more jarring when Almeida gets mistaken for a terrorist
— which happens about once a month, sometimes more. Since 9/11, he says,
he has been followed by an Amtrak helicopter, questioned by police and
rail workers and described to 911 dispatch as a "suspicious Middle
Eastern male." Almeida is of Irish Catholic descent.
Many hobbies, when considered closely, make no sense (spoon collecting,
anyone?). But then there is railfanning, which even its disciples are
hard put to explain. There are about 175,000 U.S. railfans, almost all
men, estimates Kevin Keefe of Trains magazine. They have clubs, websites
and vacation excursions. They are, like all hobbyists, consumed by the
cataloging of minutiae. "They're just attracted to trains," says John
Bromley, spokesman for Union Pacific Railroad, who admits halfway
through our conversation that he too is a railfan.
But the postindustrial age has been tough on railfans. First the
majestic steam locomotives disappeared. Then juries started giving huge
awards to people hurt on the tracks, and railroads grew hostile toward
trespassers. Now comes terrorism. Railroads upped security after 9/11,
but since the March bombing of four trains in Madrid, commuters have
been more worried. "Anyone seen taking photographs is going to be
questioned," laments Richard Maloney, spokesman for SEPTA,
Philadelphia's public-transit authority. "The wide-open spaces and the
freedom we have enjoyed to meander almost anywhere is gone." Urban train
buffs report being surrounded by police cars and customs agents. A
Haverford College student of South Asian descent was detained last year
by SEPTA police after he photographed a station — homework for an
urban-history class, as it turned out.
Most railfans find ways to adapt. Some substitute business-casual attire
for the usual Slayer T shirt to appear less threatening. Others carry
the Diesel Spotters Guide — or their kids — to establish their
innocence. As for Almeida, "I make a lot more eye contact," he says.
Then he offers his card, which lists his railfan-club affiliations. He
estimates that he has given out 500 cards since 9/11. Usually, the
matter is quickly resolved. "I have a little A.C.L.U. in me," he admits.
"So I say, 'Why can't I stay?' But the cop is the one with the gun."
Railfans have never been well understood. Rail employees call them
trolley jollies, or foamers — for those who foam at the mouth at the
sight of trains. Worst of all are FLMs: fans living with mothers.
Almeida is aware of the snickering. But the history of the trains — not
to mention the sheer thrill of a massive contraption hurtling down the
tracks — is stronger than peer pressure. Earlier this spring, Almeida,
42, spent five hours in the cold, hoping to videotape the Ringling Bros.
circus train, which never came. While waiting, he lovingly pointed out
the faded markings of long-defunct railroads on passing trains.
"Railroads built this country, and people seem to forget that," he said,
raindrops coating his oversize glasses. Almeida tries to find humor in
the new age of scrutiny. Says Bob Weiler, a fellow railfan: "John's got
four cameras. No terrorist would do that." "Unless," says Almeida, "I
was brilliant."
Hearing a horn in the distance, the men abandon their graham-cracker
snacks and scurry off to man the cameras. A hush falls over the fans as
a trash train, hauling a wall of Dumpsters to New York City, rumbles by.
Almeida smiles and afterward offers his best defense yet: "I could find
better things to do. It's just that, uh, I'm doing this."
I guess this is some kind of folklore amoungst railroad employees, but has anyone seen a railfan actually foaming ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Mark
Mark
Pop rocks and carbonated drinks don't make anything explode, not matter what the bottle is made of.
Mark
But it *is* a RAILROAD term.
Back in the days of steam, an engine that was foaming (inside of the boiler) was a problem because it could not keep the pressure up, and because liquid foam would get into the lines where only steam was supposed to be.
i.e. a locomotive that was foaming was a Pain in the Ass.
Elias
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/194559p-168126c.html
"Guide alerts cops to signs of terrorism
The NYPD has come up with its own guide to terrorism.
The list of anti-terrorism tips given to police officers last week warns cops that signs as subtle as a sparsely furnished home or untaxed cigarettes in a business could point to terrorist activity.
But the two-sided sheet, titled "Possible Indicators of Terrorist Activity," also points out some of the more obvious tips to terrorism.
The guide advises cops to watch for anyone videotaping bridges, storing blueprints of possible targets or carrying several driver's licenses.
Cops should also watch out for anyone who "expresses hatred for America and advocates violence against America and/or Americans."
Authors of the guide, meant to fit in a patrol cop's memo book, stress that it's "general" and the indicators do "not necessarily mean that terrorist activity is being planned."
Donna Lieberman, executive director of the New York Civil Liberties Union, said the guide's broadness may intrude on people's rights.
"Criticism of our country is supposed to be protected by the First Amendment," she said.
NYPD spokesman Paul Browne said the guide was not designed to thwart peaceful protests but to equip cops with more knowledge on how to fight terrorism.
Tony Sclafani"
Anyone want to guess how many NYPD officers will overeact on this one?
Well ... I s'pose I ought to do MY part - I can *afford* jail. :)
How many members of the Bush Administration are needed
to replace a lightbulb?
The Answer is SEVEN:
(1) one to deny that a lightbulb needs to be replaced
(2) one to attack and question the patriotism of
anyone who has questions about the lightbulb,
(3) one to blame the previous administration for the
need of a new lightbulb,
(4) one to arrange the invasion of a country rumored
to have a secret stockpile of lightbulbs,
(5) one to get together with Vice President Cheney and
figure out how to pay Halliburton Industries one
million dollars for a lightbulb,
(6) one to arrange a photo-op session showing Bush
changing the lightbulb while dressed in a flight suit
and wrapped in an American flag,
(7) And finally one to explain to Bush the difference
between screwing a lightbulb and screwing the country.
I'll be waiting, unarmed, outside on the private road for them Humvees. :)
You forgot:
8) One to determine that the lightbulb is a weapon of mass destruction.
This IS audience participation, though. Can't wait to see the Kerry lightbulb collection. :)
http://www.hereinreality.com/familyvalues.html
If you don't want to have an America to leave for your children, that's fine - many of us object strenuously to where we're being lead.
For the most part, yes; consider the way NYC insists on "Orange Alert" status at all times. On the other hand, the federal government is not blameless, as can be seen with, for example, the Department of Homeland Security.
Not a chance.
Indeed they do. A group of British planespotters got arrested in Greece a few months ago and were held in jail for several weeks, facing a possible sentence of years if found guilty of whatever it was they were charged with. The UK governement had to intercede fairly stongly with the Greek govt to get them even bailed. They *did* eventually go to trail and were acquitted. It seems that the Greeks have never heard of planespotting as a hobby. This is all within the EU, which is supposed to be an association of free, democratic countries.
Not necessarily. Planespotting is of course a major topic of discussion on Airliners.net. I haven't followed anything close to all of the discussions, but as best I can tell is that while there have been some incidents of police harrassment, by and large planespotters have been left alone. Some airports actually have designated spotting areas around their perimeters, though many have been closed, while there are places around some other airports where spotting is commonplace. For instance, there is Planeview Park right across the Grand Central Parkway from LaGuardia Airport, offering excellent views and photo opportunities. Spotters and photographers use it all the time and the police don't interfere. There are even some airports that allow, or at least tolerate, spotting from the top levels of their parking garages - Phoenix is one that comes to mind.
I remember when I was a kid in the 70's, JFK used to have a rooftop observation deck on the International building that you could go up on outside and watch the planes. They even had thos "touristy" telescope things up there. I think you accessed it right behind where the huge "arrival-departure" board used to be in the old terminal. I used to love watching that sign change too as it would make a chugging sound as the letters would spin.
I remember when I was a kid in the 70's, JFK used to have a rooftop observation deck on the International building that you could go up on outside and watch the planes. They even had thos "touristy" telescope things up there. I think you accessed it right behind where the huge "arrival-departure" board used to be in the old terminal. I used to love watching that sign change too as it would make a chugging sound as the letters would spin.
I'll bet you the cops won't bother this Planespotter!
If the commuters are concerned about their safety, then a STRIP SEARCH of each and every one of them, searching for weapons of mass booom-boom is the most prudent solution to their concerns. I'm not kidding here - the trend is "homicide bombers" so the PRUDENT approach is everybody gets a colorectal before they can board the train. That's the ONLY thing I see as a proper and fitting solution. :)
I don't necessarilly agree that this is being handled in the best possible way. However, those who are responsible for security have deemed it to be so. If that is now the law - there are too many aspects of railfanning for me to say if I can't walk the tracks or if I can't take pictures, then I can't railfan. I simply enjoy it in another way.
It's like the motorcycle helmet law. There are some who wear a helmet ONLY because it's the law while others choose to fight the law. Which group do you think actually spends more time enjoying the hobby and which group do you think spends more time on the side of the road arguing with cops or in court, fighting tickets?
Or in emergency rooms...
That all said, I also have a very low tolerance for stupidity on the "touchy-feely political twirl" reality as well. I've never owned a camera until LAST WEEK. I felt it was my patriotic DUTY to go buy one. I've never taken pictures of trains, though I've downloaded plenty to put aside because some of them were pretty, some were interesting, and some jogged my memories as to what I used to do nearly 35 years ago. So my passions are not about "buff photography" - I was never into that personally. But I *am* a professional contrarian and when someone tells me that I *can't* do something that is harmless, by God I'm going to do it, JUST to flip the bird. :)
That all said, as *I* see the issue, it SHOULDN'T be about photography at ALL. It should be about TRESPASSING and SECURING FACILITIES. No one's going to know what's in a relay hut unless they TRESPASS and crack open the door. No one can plant a bomb on the tracks or tunnels UNLESS they're TRESPASSING. Taking a picture of a passing train from an overpass or next to the right of way does precisely WHAT for a terrorist? To actually PERFORM a terrorist act, it is necessary to TRESPASS and THAT should be the issue. Lock 'em up and throw away the key. THERE'S your "security" ...
Black out the windows, lock up the relay racks, stay off the property, PERIOD. I have NO problem with that. But this photography silliness is nothing more than SPIN and that gets my rump up in the air. As far as bridges and other viewable "infrastructure" it's WAY to late to say "though shalt not" ... enemy already has it. But then you know that, I know that, and if it's the rules, then I *must* abide by them. But sure don't mean I like or appreciate them. :(
We think alike.
That all said, as *I* see the issue, it SHOULDN'T be about photography at ALL. It should be about TRESPASSING and SECURING FACILITIES. No one's going to know what's in a relay hut unless they TRESPASS and crack open the door. No one can plant a bomb on the tracks or tunnels UNLESS they're TRESPASSING. Taking a picture of a passing train from an overpass or next to the right of way does precisely WHAT for a terrorist? To actually PERFORM a terrorist act, it is necessary to TRESPASS and THAT should be the issue. Lock 'em up and throw away the key. THERE'S your "security" ...
Exactly. A responsible railfan won't trespass.
Of course taking photographs of restricted areas should certainly be prohibited.
You mean like that few hundred I've needed to have in order to accurately depict various complex interlockings in my book? Or like the 300 or so I needed to take in London last summer for my London book (out later this year, fates willing)?
There's NOTHING of interest to a terrorist about interlocking plants or towers. Terrorists are all about brute force and mayhem - goals easily accomplished with sufficient quantities of high explosives and a willingess to blow off their own sorry arses for Allah. Nobody's going to take the time to try and re-wire an interlocking machine to cause a sideswipe at a crossover or a rear-end collision. My guess is, if they tried anything on the subway it would be in an underwater tunnel, take down an el or blow out a clearly-marked power substation, etc. Brute force, no subtlties, etc. That's been their trademark all along.
I've completely had it with the paranoia infecting this country and if my wife's work didn't keep her in Manhattan I might be sorely tempted to move back to Canada post-haste. Seeing Osama under every rock and Bush is getting tired already. MoveOn to something else and bring back a breath of fresh air to this blighted land. And by the way, my politics have been somewhat conservative for most of my adult life, but even I've had it with this bunch. When staunch righties like me defect, it's time to start worryin' down in Crawford.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming soon...maybe
Fremont Tower
Pond Tower from NYCRR Bridge
MP15's from NYCRR Bridge
Pond Tower Again (notice how till this point (1990) there wasn't even a fence around the subway tracks! (The photo above of POND was taken at a later date). That was just being added as the photo was being taken. People blame 9/11, but security was heightened on the line long before that. It had to do with safety and security.
One does not negate the other. A white guy taking photos of freight trains cannot reasonably be labeled as a terror suspect.
Yet there were NONE of these knee-jerk panic-induced policy changes when Oklahoma City happened and I'm sure domestic terrorists are way down on Homeland Security's priority list.
I support racial profiling, as long as the basis for the profile is valid.
Actually, federal office buildings significantly increased their security after Oklahoma City. Metal detectors were added to buildings that didn't already have them, parking garages were closed to non-employees, and barricades such as concrete planters were placed around the perimeters.
If someone advocates the overthrow of the government by LAWFUL means, then such speech is protected - armed insurrection, or "wardrobe malfunctions" are NOT. But if I were to be reported for not kissing Shrub's bottom (and yes INDEED, I *have* had federales here on my property as a DIRECT result of my posts here - I've bought the FBI beers at the company bar, heh) I have legal standing SO LONG as I don't express an intent to VIOLENTLY overthrow the government. That's where the line is drawn Constitutionally and I revel in what LITTLE freedom I still have ... when you live out here in the sticks, one doesn't MATTER in the greater scheme of things, and if I gas off from time to time, then it relives me of the need to KILL these phuckers (I mention this last phrase SOLELY because some neo-con twit actually said recently that Unca Selkirk wanted to KILL, heh)
Bottom line though, I agree ... VIOLENCE and those who would commit same *ARE* an issue for law enforcement ... old geezers like me gassing off over politics and what a MORON our (ahem, kaff) "leader" and his minions are ... well ... that's PROTECTED speech ... and Cheney wants THAT outlawed too. But I don't take pictures of trains - that makes me *MORE* of a patriot than the rest. HUH?!?!?! :(
After 9/11, Baltimore Street east of Gay was closed to all traffic due to the fact that Police Headquarters occupies that entire block.
Last week, Baltimore Street is now open all the way to Presidents Street.
At BSM, we had another CSX issue lsat week. A railfan who was visiting us was harrased by a plainclothes CSX cop who objected the taking of photos of CSX trains was illegal. The fan was on our property, which happens to have the ex-B&O belt line crossing right over our property.
The duty Dispatcher called 911, and the City cops that responded advised the CSX cop that he had no jurisdiction on private property, and that a formal complaint would be filed against CSX's force.
Adlai E. Stevenson once said "A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." Using this measure, men are only free if they like racing cars, playing golf, fishing, watching sports or other activities portrayed in those mind-numbing medicine commercials. Hobbies like railfanning, planespotting, scanner listening or ham radio are clearly subversive and unpatriotic, and society must pass strict laws to control these freaks so as not to offend those who do like to play golf, watch sports, etc. This is essentially what Our Esteemed Leaders have decreed, only not in so many words.
As one who has always been unpopular, and whose hobbies and interests are 100% outside the mainstream, I am very nervous in this America.
Luckily, I know a few people who will be glad to hide me in their attics when the purges inevitably come (well, depending on who gets to place their hand on the book next January 20th).
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Centennial Commorative Edition coming soon...maybe
I don't think so - the apathy displayed by the sheeple is incredible.
Yes, they will b*tch and moan like crazy if that happens, but only because it adds 15 minutes to their commute, or inconveniences them in some other obvious way.
Most people take their freedoms for granted, and don't think about issues like this in terms of preserving our freedoms for future generations - freedoms, once incrementally ceded to the authorities, are rarely returned, and, like a cancer, such incremental cessions will only be followed by more incremental cessions until we're left with a world that barely resembles what we have now.
I know, because I used to think like this, that maybe we should cede freedoms to the authorities, maybe we should accept more government intrusion and violation of civil liberties, maybe the standards for probable cause and the barriers to cross in the process of obtaining a warrant should be lowered. But then I realized that once changes are made (often, even if explicit "sunset provisions" are made), those changes effectively become permanent (although there are a few notable exceptions, and I sincerely hope most of the Patriot Act ends up in that category. Most of those exceptions occurred when draconian measures were implemented during wartime, then revoked when the war ended. But when will the "War on Terrorism" end? Terrorism is an abstract tactic that can be employed by anybody, not a concrete political movement or specific military force that can be vanquished).
It used to infuriate me that evidence obtained without a warrant was not admissible in court, or that a suspect not read his rights could walk from a rape charge to go out and do it again (remember Miranda?). But this has to be done because, if these penalties were not levied against the prosecution for failing to follow the established procedures, they'd start breaching the rules all the time, knowing they'll get a little finger-wagging lecture from the lawyers but the charges would stick anyway. True, we could appoint a "Big Guy" who could intercede when the facts and common sense clearly contradict what the law dictates and do what we all believe to be right put the rapist away and throw out the technicality, send Arabs and Japanese for indefinite detainment in contravention of law, etc.), but (a) who chooses and places an enormous amount of trust in this Big Guy and (b) this Big Guy is, by, definition a *dictator* in that he *dictates* what is done, rather than to follow the rule of law. Saddam Hussein is/was a dictator. So were Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler, Orwell's Big Brother, and Kim Jong-Il. So the Big Guy would automatically be in Bad Company. We're probably better off without the Big Guy, even if it means a couple backpack bombers and rapists slip through the cracks.
In the long run, letting a rapist go free on a technicality (even if he goes back out and rapes and murders again), or failing to stop a terrorist from getting away with whatever dastardly plan they were attempting is small fries compared to the corruption or collapse of the rule of law and the protection of the fundamental rights of people in this country.
Then again, maybe I'm just crazy...
No, you're not... or if you are, you're in good company - me and Benjamin Franklin, among others. See Franklin's thoughts and my commentary on the subject here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Even if we did have a Big Guy in charge, backpack bombers and rapists probably would still find a way to slip through the cracks. We'd lose freedom but not necessarily gain any safety.
What does Patchoque Station have to do with it?
Mine is 66-2315.
Osama bin Laden, if you're a poster here you're an idiot. Perhaps you could learn something by talking to a certain Mr. Forrest Gump.
Anybody ever wonder why the "tour of duty" was extended PAST ELECTION DAY? As Paul Harvey would say, "And now you know ... the REST ... of the story." (needed to be said on behalf of those who CAN'T, being blowed up in western Iraq so SHRUB can strut on an aircraft carrier saying "Mission Accomplished.") ... say WHAT? :(
Would you like a five dollar NAPKIN with your Halliburger, soldier? :(
Besides, he's a Trainorders regular, isn't he? Automatic pariah.
Is his favorite beverage Tang?
The Diesel Spotters Guide
American Shortline Railway Guide, 5th Edition
Diesel Locomotives: The First 50 Years
Field Guide to Modern Diesel Locomotives
Guide to North American Railroad Hot Spots
Just To name a few, see link below for other books in the series
http://store.yahoo.net/kalmbachcatalog/railroading-books-railroad-reference-series.html
What a way to promote their photo contest!
Car #1977 at the end of a Main Street-bound 7 train.
Anyone know what this is?
It's electrical interference from the Third Rail. Strange thing really, it will affect certain types of equipment (R32, R40, R68) and not others (R44, R46).
In all seriousness, I can GUARANTEE that I could eliminate the problem if I can see schematic for the system and the wiring lines out to the speakers in a typical car which is suffering the problem. The change in level of the superimposed noise would be a function of coupling at a particular location of third rail. I remember hearing it years ago when I worked and rode the system. And I know that the newer "regen" cars take advantage of that noise to determine if there's third rail to feed back into, so it's actually somewhat useful.
But in all seriousness, if someone can get me a copy of full schematics to examine, I'll be HAPPY to solve the problem no charge as feedback advice, and relatively inexpensive if someone wants to cut a personal services contract for me. :)
In all seriousness, I was a damned good amplifier designer, DC to light back in the days when we built stuff here. My major career background was in electronics engineering. It'd be an entertaining exercise, and I promise publicly NOT to bill the MTA or make any claims if I don't have to travel down to visit or become involved personally "hands-on" ... and I'd be happy to do that if asked.
But just for the sake of "hobby exercise," color me interested ...
I wrote a program a few weeks ago which I call my "Subtalk'o'meter" and according to that, I have just 8 posts left before I blow my daily wad here. That being the case and it's 6 hours until reset time, I'm going to kiss the sidewalk soon. Therefore, let's take this to email as I am interested in this and might be able to think up an actual working solution for you in the presence of more detail.
For the benefit of anyone who's been following this though, we can do a few more things in public for "learning" ... I'm going to GUESS that the mic is like the old days, a carbon button in series with a PTT switch, high side to low voltage bus, through switch, into mic button, output side of mic button goes to trainline with little else intervening as far as wiring. Correct?
If so, then there's either leakage current of sufficient current flow to activate the amps. Are the amps activated by relay closure or is it solid state? I'm guessing there's a capacitor around the control line to bring audio into the first stage - leakage current through bad caps is a possibility as well ... but in the end, since PA amplifiers aren't exactly "national technical means" a schematic of how they're designed would be a BIG help to figuring out why. The full length trainline would obviously act like a transformer causing induction into the T wire along the trainlength, but the amplifier SHOULD react only to DC. It's a shame though that there's insufficient trainline that it couldn't have been done as a balanced pair instead of single-ended PA feed. By taking advantage of common mode wire "pair" it'd be REAL easy to solve. Single ended, a bit more of a challenge.
But if somehow it's possible to see the schematic, I'll bet I can find the culprit ... I do have an image of the configuration, but the real question is how the control circuit and input coupling to the amps was handled ...
TD, could dirty contacts on the coupler portions be at fault ?
Bill "Newkirk"
In my opinion this problem is due to ground noise. It appears
to be most acute on those older cars that still overlay the
PA on L1 and use LG as the return for the audio signal. The
ground can be very noisy, especially versus the PA audio signal
which is about 1V p-p.
Do you know of any cars in service today still use the 24V/36V
trick on the H wire to turn on the PA amp relays?
500 Microfarads at 100WV should do the trick though. But for the testy or those who want to see their Orcad/Pspice computer blow smoke from every component there's this to create insane time constants:
Unit List of Capacitance
1.abfarad
2.attofarad
3.centifarad
4.decifarad
5.dekafarad
6.exafarad
7.farad
8.femtofarad
9.gigafarad
10.hectofarad
11.kilofarad
12.megafarad
13.microfarad
14.millifarad
15.nanofarad
16.petafarad
17.picofarad
18.statfarad
19.terafarad
For those of you who have taken the Federal, how often is it on time coming into Route 128 or even leaving Penn Station? How crowded are the cars? Anything else you could provide would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
Your pal,
Fred
Michael
Washington, DC
The train stalled at New London for 30 minutes, and before that at New Haven for a solid 45.
There were three coach cars (AmFleet) and one cafe car, with a business class car attached by way of a curtain. Also a luggage car. Leading the way, to my surprise, was an AEM-7.
By the time the train hit Kingston, it began to fill up. There were no seats left upon departing Providence. When I had boarded at Penn Station, about four hours earlier, I was only one of a handful (no more than five) who got on. By the time it hit Kingston, the lights were on, the new crew was making announcements, and for what it was worth -- the train became a commuter rail. Perhaps that's one of the reasons for the "spreading out" of the schedule (coupled with the doing away of the Twilight Shoreliner).
Why do people take Amtrak from Providence to Boston if they can do it for half the price by way of the MBTA? (and, seeing as we were tagging behind an MBTA consist anyway, it would take the same amount of time).
One time back in Mid-March, I had to get up very early in the morning to catch the first Metroliner of the day down to DC (law school open house), which was due out at 0525. I expected that Penn would be nearly empty, as the last passengers would have been away on the southbond Federal two hours earlier. When I got there, though, I saw a lot of people sleeping on the ground and, to prove that they weren't the homeless people seen inhabiting Penn, they all had suticases and the boards showed the Federal being TWO HOURS LATE!
When the Metroliner came up for boarding, I noticed the Viewliner cars of the Federal two tracks to my right (I was on track 5, I think). We both started to move at the same time, but suddenly the Federal stopped as we went ahead. So not only was it late, but while we had the luxury of staying ahead of the 6am Acela and all the other commuters that were down the NEC, the Federal would be bringing up the rear. I did feel sorry for those headed for Newport News, however.
Your best bet is to ride the PATCO train from Lindenwold or Ashland to either Walter Rand Transportation Center (Broadway) in Camden or 8th and Market Station in Philadelphia. Both stations offer close connections to lines which will connect you to NY, but the primary choice between 8th and Market (2.90 one way, 23 minutes) or WRTC in Camden (1.20 one way, 19 minutes or so) would be an issue of time versus money. If you value your time more than your money, you'd go to 8th And Market in Philadelphia, walk the two blocks to Market East station for SEPTA, ride the R7 Trenton to Trenton for 7 dollars. If you value your money more than your time, you'd get off at WRTC in Camden and ride the Riverline up to Trenton for $1.10. The R7 saves roughly 20 minutes over the Riverline (roughly 40-45 minutes for a R7, 1 hour to 1:10 for a Riverline train). In either case you must transfer at Trenton for a NJT train to New York Penn Station, the R7 transfer is a timed one, and SEPTA recently has been good about meeting the NJT train. The Riverline is not timed and the station is across the street from the NJT/SEPTA/Amtrak Trenton station, but service on the NJT NEC line is frequent and you shouldn't have to wait more than 20-40 minutes for a train, even off peak.
If you're really in a hurry, you can catch an Amtrak train from 30th St Station for about 45 dollars, which will get you to NY without any transfer at Trenton to a NJT train to New York Penn station in about an hour and fifteen minutes total. You have to get from PATCO at 8th and Market to 30th St Station, the best way I can think of is to take the Market Frankford Line from 8th to 30th, then climb up to the surface and walk to the big-ass romanesque building. SEPTA accepts Amtrak rail passes on the section from Temple to 30th St Station, so on the way back if you're doing Amtrak you could just show them your stub and they'll accept it as fare. But SEPTA doesn't check tickets very often on the section between 30th and Market East Stations, so you could just slip on a SEPTA train at ME and ride to 30th St Station for free, saving yourself the 1.30 token or 2.00 cash fare for riding the MFL.
Where does the name derive from? Maybe AP can chime in.
Voorhees Township was named in honor of Foster McGowan Voorhees, the governor of New Jersey who granted the petition for Voorhees to become a separate township on March 3, 1899. "Voor" is a Dutch prefix for "in front of." "Hees" was a village near Ruinen, Drenthe, Holland.
I have a couple of questions about the BMT J/M/Z service, as I have ridden (at least a portion of) every line in the system, with the exception of the J/M/Z lines (except for a short segment from Canal to Fulton/Broadway/Nassau), and have been trying to figure out the service patterns on this line.
Here are some questions I have:
-Considering there seems to be no service south of Chambers on weekends, does this mean the Broad St. Station sees no weekend service?
-As far as I can see, the M runs from Metropolitan Av. in Queens to Myrtle Av. When does it go on, and what stations does it stop at, when? Also, if the M is such a short line, why is it the only one to go south into Brooklyn?
-Why are some stations east of Myrtle Av. marked as "express" stations? There are only 2 tracks, and no express stations on this line.
-What is the point of the Z train? If you're going to get rid of the 9, why not get rid of the Z as well?
-Also, basically, what lines terminate where, when?
This is all very confusing, and I hope you can help me!
Thanks in advance,
Matt
Correct.
>>>>>>>>>>As far as I can see, the M runs from Metropolitan Av. in Queens to Myrtle Av. When does it go on, and what stations does it stop at, when? Also, if the M is such a short line, why is it the only one to go south into Brooklyn?
The M shuttle operates between 8 pm and 5 am Mon-Fri and all day during weekends & holidays. I cannot for the life of me understand the second part of the question.
>>>>>>>>>>Why are some stations east of Myrtle Av. marked as "express" stations? There are only 2 tracks, and no express stations on this line
Wrong, there are 3 tracks with the middle (express) track being bi-directional.
>>>>>>>>>>>>What is the point of the Z train?
The point of the Z skip-stop train is to not only offer a quicker ride from/to Manhattan, but also to reduce overcrowding.
>>>>>>>>>>>Also, basically, what lines terminate where, when?
The J/Z operate between Broad St and Jamaica Center Mon-Fri and between Chambers St and Jamaica Center on weekends. The M operates between Metropolitan Av and Bay Pkwy during rush hours, Chambers St during middays and at Myrtle Av all other times.
In TA parlance, there is no "east" or "west". There is only "north" & "south" with the geographically northern-most terminal being the "northern" portion of the line.
In your question, by mentioning "east" of Myrtle Av, you are referring to the J line. Geographically speaking (and within TA parlance as well), the M goes north at Myrtle Av. In this case, it is true that they are only two available tracks (at least during the past 50+ years), but they're not considered to be "express" stations.
For instance: the Canarsie Line runs TRUE east-west while running under 14th street. However, the 'north' track is designated as the one inbound to Manhattan, while the 'south' track is the outbound (aka Canarsie-bound).
You are correct.
"As far as I can see, the M runs from Metropolitan Av. in Queens to Myrtle Av. When does it go on, and what stations does it stop at, when? Also, if the M is such a short line, why is it the only one to go south into Brooklyn? "
It continues past Myrtle Avenue during weekdays. To Chambers St from 9:30 AM to 3:30 PM. It is extended into lower Brooklyn during the AM and PM rush hours. As far as why it is the line extended into lower Brooklyn, I have no idea. In the matter of what station it stops at see the subway map.
http://www.mta.info/nyct/maps/submap.htm
"-Why are some stations east of Myrtle Av. marked as "express" stations? There are only 2 tracks, and no express stations on this line. "
What is it you are looking at that indicates "express"? On the subway map the stations are marked with a black circle which indicates a local station.
"-Also, basically, what lines terminate where, when? "
The Z terminates at Broad St during the AM and PM Rush hours. The J terminates at Broad St at all times EXCEPT late nights (12M to 6:30 AM) and all day weekends when it terminates at Chambers St. The M is mentioned above.
For full information on operating timnes go to:
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/schemain.htm and click on the line you want to review.
Here is a piece I took of of the subway map, north (east) of Myrtle Av.
Notice the Cresent St. and Woodhaven Blvd. Stations
Matt: Its a bit confusing but those white dots don't indicate real express stations. As you know there is skip-stop service on the Jamica Line between Jamaica Center and Eastern Parkway and on the Broadway-Brooklyn Line between Eastern Parkway amd Myrtle Avenue.
When skip-stop operation is in effect the J trains makes some stops exclusively and the Z train makes some stops exclusively. Stations that are served by both routes J and Z are refered to as "All-Stop" stations, hence the white dot for quasi express station.
Current "All-Stop" stations are Jamaica Center,Sutphin Blvd,Woodhaven Blvd,Crescent Street,Eastern Parkway and Myrtle Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I find it odd that 121st would have been an all-stop; it's not exactly a heavy stop, nor does it have a bus transfer.
Between Myrtle Avenue and Eastern Parkway the line is still three tracks but only the two local tracks are regularly in use. There is a sort of ersatz express service which we call skip-stop between these two point with J trains making some stops and Z trains making others. Hours of skip-stop are approx. M-F 7am-8am westbound and 5pm-6pm eastbound.
The M operates on the following schedule with all trains having Metropolitan Avenue as the north terminal.
The south terminal is as follows:
M-F 12mid-6am and 8pm to 12 mid Myrtle Avenue
M-F 6am-9am and 4pm-7pm Bay Parkway
M-F 9am to 4pm Chambers Street
M-F 7pm-8pm Broad Street.
There Broad Street service is not shown on subway maps.
On the weekends all trains run as shuttles between Metropolitan Avenue and Myrtle Avenue.
The M train provides the only service between Broad Street Station in Manhattan and Court Street Station in Brooklyn and this is rush hours only.
Beginning about 1159pm Friday until about 5am Monday morning there is no service south of Chambers Street Station. Fulton Street and Broad Street Stations are closed at these times.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
It certainly could. But the TA does not want the expense of opening up Fulton Street and Broad Street on the weekends.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I don't know how much this nonsense on the weekend could possibly save. The only savings that is obviously apparent is one station agent at Broad. There can't be too much savings at Fulton as the complex is staffed and opened for the other lines that run through there anyway.
According to a nearly ten-year-old Usenet post by Larry Gould, weekend service to Broad is only temporarily suspended. Has the tunnel lighting project been completed yet?
My understanding is that any permanent reduction in service requires a public hearing. However, temporary reductions that last many years do not. For instance, the MTA did not have to hold a public hearing when it redrew the subway map for the MannyB construction, because those changes - long-lasting though they were - weren't permanent.
Another related "temporary" service reduction that became permanent was the midday M to 9th Avenue. In 1995, the Manhattan Bridge was closed middays, so the Q was sent through the tunnel along with the N and R. This bumped the M out, since it couldn't fit. But when the bridge reopened, M service was never reinstated -- not until 2001, when it was reinstated "temporarily" (this all riding on top of a temporary service suspension!). But I suppose the hearings last year, which included the midday M to Chambers, took care of the issue at the formal level, and now the midday M has been permanently cut back.
But I don't think there have yet been any public hearings regarding the 1990 weekend J cutback to Canal (extended one stop to Chambers in 1994).
Larry,RedbirdR33
My understanding is that there's also a control tower at Broad, which needs to be staffed when the station is operating.
Nobody cares about Broad itself. Run in service to Fulton and relay light in the station at Broad.
They'd have to fumigate the trains at Fulton, and they'd need to man the tower at Broad.
I'm not defending the policy, just explaining what the rationale as I understand it. As Lower Manhattan becomes, more and more, a 24/7 neighborhood, I suspect this will be re-evaluated eventually.
So fumigate! It's done at other stations all over the system.
The fact that something's done elsewhere doesn't really stand up as serious analysis. There are many things done someplace that don't make sense every place.
The weekend closure at Fulton/Broad is just like any other off-hours service pattern - it has to be evaluated on its cost/benefit merits. My suspicion is that since they'd have to open the tower at Broad, they would restore weekend service to both stations or to neither.
If I understand the track map correctly, this could only work if all weekend trains used the southbound track at Broad Street on weekends. Although the line could maintain reasonable headways, it would be a bit confusing for riders.
Which is why the J should terminate at Fulton Street, using that switch to turn trains around. Broad Street doesn't need to be served on weekends.
The Q uses both platforms at 57/7. The B will soon use both platforms at Brighton Beach -- and until then, the arrangement is that the Q uses the southbound platform and the B uses the northbound platform, except on weekends, when the Q uses both. (Say that three times fast!)
The V uses both platforms at 2nd Avenue.
From 7/22/01 to 2/22/04, the southbound D terminated at the northbound platform at 34/6 while the northbound B originated at the southbound platform at 34/6.
For a year, the northbound 3 originated at the southbound platform at 14/7. Southbound passengers attempting to transfer from local to express found themselves going the wrong way. Northbound passengers transferring from local to express had to climb to the mezzanine and cross over.
At Canal Street northbound, the N runs express from the lower level platform on weekdays, local from the upper level platform at night, and local from the lower level platform on weekends (while the R, which also runs local, stops at the upper level platform).
These platform arrangements are much more confusing than the proposed arrangement at Broad.
City Hall Tower controls the switches south of Broad. City Hall Tower has to be manned on weekends -- it handles the N/Q/R merge/diverge south of Prince.
Weekend J trains are already fumigated at Chambers. What difference does it make if they're fumigated at Fulton instead?
The best way to fight for it, is to get people to ride it. The MTA doesn't respond to misty-eyed nostalgia for particular letters of the alphabet. They run trains in proportion to where people are going.
The fleet is scheduled to grow over the coming years, but it will be deployed where it's needed most.
Actually, Broad Street does have service outside of business hours: it's a 24/5 station. Only on the weekends is it not served.
The two J platforms that are closed on weekends are very different. Fulton Street remains a busy destination, thanks to the nearby South Street Seaport and Ground Zero. At Broad Street it is truly dead.
However, since it is not practical to open Fulton without also opening Broad, both are closed. I suspect that this policy will be re-evaluated at some point, as the area's weekend traffic continues to grow.
Correct. No Nassau Line service at Fulton either.
-As far as I can see, the M runs from Metropolitan Av. in Queens to Myrtle Av. When does it go on, and what stations does it stop at, when? Also, if the M is such a short line, why is it the only one to go south into Brooklyn?
Monday to Friday daytime it continues to Chambers St, Manhattan. Rush Hours it runs local to Bay Parkway, Brooklyn.
The reason the M goes back into Brooklyn via the Montague Tunnel (R Line) rather than the J/Z is that the Brighton Local and the Jamaica Local used to operate through by this routing (the QJ train) and it was a heck of a long route, which was a bit tough on train crews. As no-one rode the whole length of the line, the same journey opportunities could more easily be created by roouting the M train into South Brooklyn.
-Why are some stations east of Myrtle Av. marked as "express" stations? There are only 2 tracks, and no express stations on this line
Pedants will note that there is a third track from Myrtle to BJ and consequently fail to answer your question.
The stops marked as express (with JZ beside them) are all stop stations. The stops marked local with JZ beside them are Z train stations, except for the 23 hours a day the Z isn't running. You can guess what the local stops with J by them get (no Z service).
-What is the point of the Z train? If you're going to get rid of the 9, why not get rid of the Z as well?
To make the Jamaica El a quicker way to the Financial District than the severely overcrowded E Queens Blvd Express.
-Also, basically, what lines terminate where, when?
(J) Jamaica - Broad St (all stops); weekends cut back to Chambers St; rush hour skips 121, 102-104, Elderts La, Norwood Av, Van Siclen Av, Chauncey, Gates Av, Flushing Av, Lorimer, Hewes in peak direction only
(M) Metropolitan - Myrtle; weekday daytimes extended to Chambers; rush hours extended to Bay Pkwy
(Z) morning rush hour Jamaica Center, Sutphin, 121, 102-104, Woodhaven Blvd, Elderts La, Crescent, Norwood Av, Van Siclen Av, BJ, Chauncey, Gates Av, Myrtle Av, Marcy Av, Essex, Bowery, Canal, Chambers, Fulton, Broad; returns all stations to BJ; evening rush hour runs in reverse
1) Yes, on wkends there is no service to south of Chambers. You must transfer to the 4/5/6 at Chambers to go any further.
2) The M goes to Bay Pkwy, Bklyn rush hours and to Chambers wkdays. It's the only one that goes to south bklyn, because the J/Z to Jamaica Center is much longer than the M to Metropolitan. Therefore, thats too long a route for the J/Z. (Note that the J did go to 95th right after 9/11 for a short while to replace R service.)
3) I'll have to correct you on that one. There are 3 tks btwn Marcy and Junction. The center tk btwn Myrtle and Junction is unused, but the J/Z run express peak only during rush hours btwn Marcy and Myrtle. And the 3 exp stations are Marcy, Myrtle and Junction.
4) The point of the Z is to make a shorter trip for the people who live btwn Myrtle and Jamaica Center. I've only been on the J/Z during non-rush hours and I'll tell you that it's one hell of a long trip. I think that commuters deserve some sort of faster way to get to Manhattan. And the skip/stop service is the answer. The 9 on the other hand does hardly any skip/stop serive, just a small bit on the Upper West Side. (Not as much of a need for it.)
5) J/Z -- from Jamaica Center to Broad (Chambers nights wkends)
M -- from Metropolitan to Chambers (Bay Pkwy rush hrs, Myrtle nights and weekends)
Hope I gave you what you were looking for.
-Broadway Buffer
I suspect that this is to allow fresh equipment to be put in from Coney Island, and take it out again in the evening.
Elias
-Broadway Buffer
Actually, it's ridership nearly doubled, which says a lot. It was still a low use station overall, but doubled ridership is nothing to laugh at.
In 2000, Bowery ranked 416 (out of 424 stations) in the system with 250,125 annual fares. This was when Grand St trains still went over the bridge.
In 2002, Bowery ranked 400 with 477,528 fares collected. That rise in ridership in only two years can be attributed to the loss of Grand as a through station. I believe 2003's stats may show Bowery even higher. I suspect though that when the 2004 stats are out (the first year of the MB being open), that ridership will show a significant decrease closer to it's 2000 numbers, although they may be a bit higher because of the area around Bowery gentrifying a bit.
Bowery wasn't really a good substitute for Grand unless you were going to Brooklyn (which is only a destination for a moderate percentage of people in the vicinity of Bowery). It does no good at all if you want to go to midtown, unless the weather is so bad that it's worth taking the train a few short blocks to Essex or Canal.
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the upturn was due to gentrification and won't dissipate. On the other hand, the reduced number of people working in lower Manhattan could hurt ridership.
Also, you can't really blame the neighborhood for Bowery's low usage. Other than Broad St, it's the only station in Manhattan with no service to midtown. Second Ave isn't really a better neighborhood, but it has more usage for that reason.
When I ride the B into Manhattan mid-afternoon, there's a substantial turnover at Grand Street. (Canal probably has even greater demand for Brooklyn service -- the southbound bridge platform at Canal seems to be always crowded, at least when I pass by.)
True. Even true from the Bowery. But if I were at Bowery and Delancey and heading for a residential portion of the city, chances are pretty high that my best route (assuming decent weather) would involve not walking down the stairs, but walking over to Essex, or Spring and Lafayette, or Canal and Centre, or 2nd Ave and Houston or (now available again) Grand and Chrystie.
Only if I were going toward Brooklyn (and S Brooklyn only in rush hours) would I be likely to use the station right at my feet.
Bowery's real problem is that most people there don't want the Nassau St line, and there are enough stations nearby that have better connections to more desirable destinations.
Yes, but to go further south, the 6 will not help you.
J LINE
-Always starts at Jamaica Center
-Between Sutphin Blvd and Myrtle Ave, it operates skip-stop (that is every other stop, except for where there is a WHITE circle on the map, meaning that it stops there all times)
-Skip-stop is only done when the Z train is running; otherwise the J runs LOCAL from Sutphin Blvd to Myrtle Ave
-Wherever there is a third track from Sutphin to Myrtle, it is not used, except possibly for storage
-From Myrtle to Marcy, J trains actually DO use the middle track to run express, rush hour peak direction only (to Manhattan AM, away PM)
-Normal terminal is Broad St, although on weekends, it is Chambers St, and there is no regularly scheduled service on weeekends south of Chambers
M LINE
-Always begins at Metropolitan Ave
-The other terminal is either Myrtle Ave (evenings, nights, and weekends), Chambers St (midday weekdays), or Bay Pkwy (rush hours)
-M line is always local wherever it goes
Z LINE
-Exactly the same as the J line except it only runs rush hours and when it does skip-stop, it makes the stops the J doesn't make as well as the stops designated on the map by a white circle; THIRD TRACK, WHENEVER IT IS THERE, IS NOT USED BY ANYTHING except for storage and unscheduled stuff
I hope this complete summary assists you.
-Matt-
My apologies to the CPW people, still no luck for you.
Hi Chris: Now in a perfect world the TA would start running express service on the IRT Jerome Avenue Line to compensate for the loss of express service on the IND Concourse Line.
How about a #4 Lexington Av Thru-Express.
Best Wishes, Larry,RedbirdR33
Chris: Thats something that I've always wondered about. Why didn't they make the express stop at Forham Road instead of Burnside Avenue. Even in 1916 Fordham Road was a far more important throughfare.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Still, the lack of anything in the eastern Bronx is no excuse for planning oversights for the line, even for 1910s planners.
At first the shuttle did run all the way to Burnside Av. It was soon cut back to 167 Street due to poor ridership.
Larr,RedbirdR33
That's fine. Just remember.... it's gotta end EARLIER than the Flushing < 7 > Exp.
Damn.
6ExpRider
Huh? All I saw on the posters today was that Concourse express service would be suspended until autumn 2004. I was going to ask why, but you answered that in my original plan. How will this project affect the CPW line south of 145th?
Huh? All I saw on the posters today was that Concourse express service would be suspended until autumn 2004. I was going to ask why, but you answered that in your post. How will this project affect the CPW line south of 145th?
OK. Thanks for clearing that up. This GO sorta makes my request to boost peak direction B local service redundant.
But back to your original, post, I still have no idea what you were trying to say.
I'll say it slower so you can understand
they're
resignalling
the
D
line
and
doing
construction
north
of
bedford
park
understand?
This tells me nothing. I know the D runs express now, and no one is getting screwed, except maybe those people who think they are saving 20 minutes on that 125-59 express run.
hey I dont mind riding a local D in the bronx so as long as I keep that nice 125-59 run.
That's nothing new. I wouldn't mind either.
they're
resignalling
the
D
line
Ok, so?
and
doing
construction
north
of
bedford
park
That's been going on for a while. So like I said, what new information have you conveyed here? I don't see any.
I noticed at 167th st, there is netting on the center track.
I am please my D line is getting the attention it deserves, soon Concourse and Jerome will have fully renovated, beautiful stations. Bedford Park renovation (ongoing) will be a beautiful 1. Hopefully they do that in coordination with the Jerome Avenue El bedford park rehab.
wayne
Observant transit fans may remember a classic "Odd Couple" episode in which Felix (Tony Randall) and Oscar (Jack Klugman) were riding in a so-called New York subway train. The show was done on a Hollywood soundstage, and in that particular episode's end the two of them were going all the way to the yard, because the stalled train was taken out of service.
However, Tony Randall actually did ride the New York subway in real life, and the last time I had seen him in person was a few yeras ago when he entered the same R-68A uptown "D" train as I was riding at 7th Avenue-53rd Street. He got off the "D" train at 59th Street-Columbus Circle, where he would transfer over to a just arrived R-32 "C" train across the platform. He would take the "C" train to his apartment along Central Park West, ,most likely to 81st Street station.
Rest in peace, Tony Randall.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
-William A. Padron
["A Bob Stewart Production"]
-William A. Padron
["BASADA, Inc."]
Darn. When I worked in a bagel shop near Union Square back in 1989, he was a semi-regular customer, as was Hal Linden.
[obscure reference mode: ON]
"The password is: flaming"
"You!"
"Actor?"
"You!"
I don't know if Tony Randall was much like his Felix Ungar character in real life. If he was, I can imagine him being repulsed at the sight of graffiti scarred and littered subway cars of the 70's.
Tony Randall's real name was Leonard Silverman.
Bill "Newkirk"
I guess I was half wrong. I heard Silverman on one of those Access Hollywood type shows. They can be wrong also.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, he did make a commercial in the '70s or '80s about "Don't Dump on NY".
I remember him filming in Times Square (Shubert Alley and at Sardi's) in 80's. Could have been the same commerical, not sure. He was Same as his Felix character. I got to get a scanner one of these days and post some of my slides.
Is there a regulation banning a C/R from moving from cab to cab when the train is in motion, or is there one mandating that the C/R be in position to open the doors immediatley upon entering any station?
I would think -THIS- to be the case of procedure.
C/Rs on the 7 always crossed cabs whilst in motion... to be in position when arriving at next station.
That's the normal procedure I've witnessed on every non-transvers cab cars since my earliest memories. This woman added nearly 4 minutes to the run of her train (negated by the fact that normal holds at 145th, 59th and Dekalb were skipped). It still was infuriating to watch.
wayne
And amusingly, for those of us WILLING to serve on arnines, it was just SUCH a non-event. You simply learned what GRAB IRONS were for and to RESPECT them. I felt like I was in a mother's arms out there working them though. You were literally cradled by the design of the cars. But it's sad that a conductor is out there without proper "sea legs" ... :)
But given what you describe, you probably had someone who had a close call out there and somehow wasn't aware of the proper protection method when moving between moving cars. You open the door, reach out, grab the iron, move, grab the adjacent opposite iron, three points of contact at ALL times, and move into the next car.
When I had broom closets to work instead of outside, I'd just keep both storm doors in my way LOCKED and stand against the cab door to ensure nobody risked falling out. Made it fast and quick to get "offside" while the train was moving. But your conductor there appears to have been nervous about their footing while in motion and likely is in need of some confidence-building.
But PLEASE don't sell TA women short ... if they get past schoolcar, they ARE up to the job. TA goes out of their way to scare away the weak of heart LONG before they get to post. :)
There's one problem though. R40 equipment do not have "iron" (hand holds) to hold on to between cars.
wayne
They didn't protrude much, and were screwed to the inside of the doorjam, but there's one if you can make it out ...
The only "long long piece of iron" that I see is to the left of the picture next to the storm door. But that's an affixed safety chain that connects the two cars and is only removed by removing or bending a chain link.
BTW - when did that pic get taken, is our Noseless Beauty still waiting for her fix? Her mate (Frankenslant) is no doubt getting inpatient! :o)
wayne
No three points, NO movement, conductor's behavior UPHELD and endorsed then. I thought there were grab irons and still think I remember there being irons there. But no proff, I stand down.
As it turns out, no grab irons - *I* wouldn't have moved while the train was either. I could have sworn the 40's had irons out there when I did them, but I didn't do very many of them since they were still all over in Queens at the time. In 8 car sets, you either operated between 3 and 4 or 5 and 6, no messing with the "wide open spaces" of the slants before they got their "cages." :)
As for WOMEN in railroading, what you describe is true everywhere. There's still a lot of old timer morons out there who don't think railroading is for women - tell that to CSX or any other railroad. And yeah, when you're at a disadvantage and idiots are gunning for you BECAUSE of your sex or race, you tend to play it even more straight and narrow than those of us who looked like hippies. (grin) But everything you were taught was right, and when I observed you doing your thing, I was not only impressed, I was AWESTRUCK by the perfection you demonstrated. You were "brought up good!"
And can't say I blame you for staying in the middle - hell, all the accidents happen up front. =)
Since the wigs watch this place, lemme lay it all out since I "experienced" you on the road and rode along with you longer than most TSS' would. In addition to doing what you do, also worked up front. Plus, over the years I became "management" (time cards, meetings, etc) and was responsible for a whole division - several in fact in another agency. Plus "planning" and executive committees, so I saw all sides of the equation.
When we first linked up, I was concerned that perhaps because we had planned to meet, you might "bend the rules" a bit for "friends." NO DICE. *FIRST* good impression. One NEVER changes their obervance just because they've got friends on board. You said hello, waved us on and STAYED IN THE CAB until we got to the terminal. You just did your thing and not once infracted. So along the ride, we paid attention to your announces, pooked our heads out the door and waved to you actually trying to CAUSE distractions. You IGNORED us. You made time, did everything just right and got "home" on time.
Once you were on your fallback, we finally had some time to kibbitz. On the return trip, redbird ... ah well, you HAD to hang out with the geese which gave us the opportunity to kibbitz a bit more. But what impressed me again was that your PRIME focus was looking up and down the train, keeping an eye on what was going on and you were there for your opens, announces, closes and key turns right on the mark. You played beat the clock and won.
But more importantly, you had a SMILE on your face, that smile was exuded in your announces, you were FOCUSED and STILL had time for the "walkup window question and answer time" for those on the platform. And you STILL smiled. And as much "POOH" as I threw at you to test your mettle, you were right on the spot every time. I don't impress easily, YOU did. :)
If I was up front, I would be kicking and screaming if they took you away from me. And as far as Z and Alex (I suspect Unca Bill and a few others would be a hoot as well) go, you'll hook up some day. It's a small little world down there and everybody depends on each other more than many will admit. I'd be PROUD to work with you if only I could stand the MTA. (grin) *AND* I'd proud to be your supervisor. Folks who are as focused and with it as you proved to be are the kind of folks I wouldn't have to worry about. With all the slackers out there, it's always nice to know that there are folks who don't NEED supervision!
And yes, DO consider motors ... the final choice is up to you of course, but you're DEFINITELY of the right temperment and concentration level to do it well. And since you've already seen the world of 12-9, I think you'll be able to handle it when your turn(s) come up in the cab glass. And they WILL. Eventually. It's not like you haven't already had to face it a few times INdirectly. Once you can get past THAT issue though, you'll be GREAT up front. I speak here also from experience in the title. You ARE ready for it.
Seniority is one thing, you'll see the four years fly and be back at the top of the game. Besides ... you went over to B division to "see the world" ... XX board provides that as well. :)
Of course I have never seen a 12-9...
Dead kids along the interstate are quite enough and all the same.
A moments inattention or a moments indescretion and it is all over.
The highways (other than the interstate) are NOT patrolled, and you can do any speed you damn well please (Do keep in mind that most roads are gravel!)
They are not patrolled, but Sheriff Darwin is out there, and he will not let you go with a warning.
Oh my, the Ambulance is only 40 minutes away: You seatbelt is your only friend out here, and you are sitting on him. Too Bad, Kid. Your parents will miss you.
Elias
To terminate her for a dispute over an appointment is ridiculous and petty beyond words.
How Stupid! Ain't no arbitrator going to let them get away with that!
Is she doing any better yet?
Elias
I'm sure they'll get away with it after declaring her unfit for duty and dismissed. :(
But 12-9's are even harder to deal with as we've discussed before offline. But deal with them you must, or you eat yourself up. And in just about every situation there is, there's nothing you can do to stop them, and you have to find a way to get past them. Just another part of the job unfortunately, something the buffs will just never understand. And if that isn't bad enough, the way the TA deals with it is even worse. I know how much you two liked working with each other too. Damned sad. :(
#3 West End Jeff
On arnines, you HAD to be outside to do the doors. You were properly trained in what's along the wayside and how to remain safe. As far as I was aware, the only injuries to conductors on arnines was at the hands of the geese and an occasional 12-9 when they failed to follow procedure. :(
Yup... Riding UNDER the train was definately NOT part of the proceedure!
But yeah, the intensity and seriousness with which I regard running trains came from that training. As a result, crusty old Unca Selkirk is STILL here. :)
As the song goes, taking care of business and working overtime.
#3 West End Jeff
Once upon a time, conductors were allowed to take care of business. (grin)
But on arnines and LoV's, you had to turn and face the platform straddling BOTH cars, lift gate, wiggle gate to get top and bottom hook off, move gate OVER to OTHER hook, drop bottom, line up and sink top, grab and then climb out onto raised step plates. Then, hold onto triggers for the stopping jolt, reach under and give it the two-finger feelup and yank. And ALL of this before the train actually STOPPED.
You guys have it *so* easy. heh.
OH the things we do for cash. (grin)
Seriously, stuff like this annoys me considering that these cars are 5 years old, and local recycle is right below the buzzer, and between the pairs of open/close buttons.
You ever think that some of these guys have been in title for 10+ years and for most of their career they had to reopen the whole section? It takes getting used to when you do the same thing for so long.
wayne
And yes I know my name is not Dave. Consider me to be a "Dave lite".
IMO, the C/R should always be allowed to make a manual announcement, and should be required to make a manual announcement whenever the train is on the track it isn't usually on (whether or not it's making its usual stops), and of course whenever the automated announcement contains even a seemingly minor error.
But in any case, if I see a train that isn't where it's supposed to be, I want to hear a real, live person tell me that he knows what's going on and that the next stop is whatever it is -- not a computer telling me what it was programmed to say a half hour earlier. A manual announcement is an explicit statement by a member of the crew of what's going on; an automated announcement is not. When a train isn't following its regular route, those explicit statements are necessary.
Prove it.
Actually I forget in which document I saw it, but it states that it is recommended the C/R cross between cars when the train has just started to move (obviously not possible when you're supposed to be observing) or after the train has come to a stop.
Point 1 = Right Foot
Point 2 = Left Foot
Point 3 = Right hand holding the door handle.
Close the Door.
Move Left hand to opposite door handle.
Move right foot to next foot plate
Move left foot to next foot plate
Open the door.
Enter the door.
Close the doot.
Piss your pants... that was exiting!
Elias
Of course I was only trying to be funny, the door handles do not count, since they are moveable, and cannot give you propper support.
Out here the railroads give this three-point contact a lot of respect.
Always a minimum of three secure points of contact, and always facing the locomotive when asscending or decending the steps.
They used to step on or off while the locomotive was rolling. But now it must be at a FULL STOP when people step on or off the locomotive.
Three points of contact:
Right knee.
Left Knee.
forhead jambed in between the anti-climbers.
OK ... I thinke we can do this!
Elias
After all, she's looking out for her safety. With that said, there ain't NO WAY I would ever work with her.
Why not! Just give her a R 68 and you will be good to go. Remember the stuff that runs on the B have no grab handles so I can see why she would wait until the train stops. I frist notice that when I was working the N Line on a R40 leaveing Hoyt Ave. I knew I had to quickly adjust. I mayself like to keep it moving and I don't want to mess my own style up.
What did it get me?
The 32 across the platform which I would rather operate over a 40 anyday. Seemed like every 40 I took out had at least 1 slow door.
Sounds great. One problem, the 68's are on the D and she picked the B.
Like I said, NO SHOT of me teaming up with Madame Slowpoke. Not even for a week.
OMG (Oh My Goodness!) I must have alked between the cars on those things HUNDREDS of times, and never even noticed that there were no hand holds!
: ) Elias
BTW, why do the R40's lack these hand holds?
The original slanted ends lacked grab-irons and pantograph gates (which were the norm for NYC subway equipment up to that time). Later, the NYCTA's own shops added the pantographs and grab irons on the front ends, but someone obviously overlooked the blind (B) ends of the cars where there was NEVER a provision for handholds. My guess is that Raymond Loewy Associates did not understand the significance of the grab irons on the blind ends as I'm sure they would have come up with an appropriate design feature to accomodate them in the finished product (perhaps a recessed grab iron much like newer cars have recessed door handles).
Mayor Lindsay, who pushed for a 'new look' subway car during his administration got what he was looking for in the slant 40. Unfortunately, like the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for -- you may get it!
Try riding with her! I endured her from BPB all the way to Sheepshead Bay. I'm thankful I wasn't really going anywhere.
The preferred route would include the Bay Ridge line in Brooklyn. For full details see Cross Harbor Freight Movement.
I would tend to agree that they would get a lot of resistance from the NINBYs on the north shore of SI if they were going to run a great deal of freight traffic there.
Come to think of it, it's a shame that they did not seriously consider the Staten Island to Brooklyn routing - while they were sinking the freight tunnels, they could have (well, in a perfect world) also added capacity for Subway expansion...
Fresh Pond is pretty well pakced up as the hub og NYA activity, Oak point in the bronx is pretty full up too. Yard A is going to LIRR for ESA storage, Holban is LIRR storage now (right), the thought of a intermodal terminal at the old pilgram state hospital site is faded.
Where are the trains going to go once they get out of the tunnel?
When was Hell Gate made 3 track? Lemme guess, round WW2 so they could pull up the rails for steel?
It's possible that the fourth set of tracks remain in some state (I haven't looked myself), but only 3 have been in use for some time.
I love the Hell Gate bridge - so much steel, so many trains... Despite 80 years of deferred maintenance, it held up just fine, and will probably outlive most of the other bridges in the area (with the possible exception of the Brooklyn Bridge, another overbuilt wonder). I wonder if a railfan trip could be arranged :)
NYCroads is basically nycsubway.org but for the roads. I consider it a "sister site" to this one - Steve Anderson's site is just awesome for transportation buffs!
Considering how lightly used the hell gate is, we probably could have a fan trip.
There was a second trip in 2001, but is was for the community not railfans, however a few snuck on.
One of the reasons the use of container on railroads has become popular is because the container on light weight stack well car are lighter then loaded conventional freight cars.
So the only changes that might need to be made on the Hell Gate are for clearance.
John
The reason stacks are so popular is because you double the train capacity with essentially no increase in cost (in theory at least, but not in reality). Axle loads are not all that different than conventional cars (you can easily get up to 29 ton axle loads on a fully loaded 5 car articulated unit - a 263k GRL freight car has an axle load of 33.8 tons, 286k GRL - 37.5 tons). What's more, fully loaded 89' pig flats (25 ton axle load) and spine cars (20 ton axle loads) are much lighter than stacks.
Broadway became an important thoroughfare, and there were proposals going back to the 1870s for a subway underneath it (the Beach Pneumatic Subway). Proposals only became serious in the 1890s, by which time Broadway interests were concerened about the disruption that subway construction would cause. That and the desire by the city to provide a route to Grand Central Depot caused the selection of the Elm Street-4th Avenue route on the East Side. Nevertheless, with Park Avenue blocked above 42nd Street, the subway had to choose another route to go further uptown and so swung westward to get to Broadway at Longacre Square.
Longacre Square at the time was the center of the city's carriage trade district (19th century equivalent of auto garages) and was so named because London's Longacre Square had the same function. In 1901 the New York Times moved its headquarters to Longacre Square from Park Row, following the New York Herald which moved to Herald Square 10 years before. The New York Times wanted to be honored with its own square just like the Herald. IRT President August Belmont was a shareholder of the New York Times, and the IRT and Times made a deal to promote the paper: The station would be called Times Square. The city would only make the change official one year later.
Even with the Times there, this was still not a popular destination, so the IRT designed a standard local stop, including an underpass. As Times Square grew into the center of the city's entertainment district, this came to be inadequate. In the 1910s, with the original subway route maxed out, work begun on new lines as part of the Dual Contracts. The BRT was awarded with a subway underneath Broadway and the IRT got one under 7th Avenue, which would serve the new Penn Station. The IRT split itself into separate east and west side routes, keeping the 42nd Street section as a shuttle linking them. The original local station, now the shuttle station had a new platform added to allow three tracks to remain in use.
As the BRT was a separate, private company, they charged a separate fare; while one could transfer between them without going up to the street, one had to exit through one set of turnstiles, and then re-enter through another set, paying another fare.
Things got more interesting in 1927 when the IRT Steinway route was extended west from Grand Central and 5th Avenue under 41st Street (42nd was occupied by the shuttle, the line switches over under Bryant Park). Because of the depth of the line, both from its tunnel under the river and from the need to get underneath all of the other subway lines at Times Square, a series of switchback ramps would bring passengers down. Ramps have a larger throughput than stairs.
The final player in the Times Square game was the IND, which built a subway under Eighth Avenue (it was the only unused avenue left) in 1932. In order to provide convenient access to the IRT lines at Times Square, a tunnel was built under 41st Street, even though a separate fare would be required, as between the IRT and BMT.
On June 1, 1940, the city bought the BMT, joining the IND which the city already owned. The IRT followed 10 days later. In 1948, as a concession to passengers for an increase of the fare from 5 to 10 cents, free interdivisional transfers were implemented. The turnstiles at the BMT station were rearranged to allow free transfers between the two divisions. Even with interdivisional transfers, the 41st Street passage remained outside fare control.
Bringing more into the Times Square complex, the Port Authority Bus Terminal opened in 1950, providing direct access to the both 42/8 and Times Square via the IND mezzanine and the 41st Street passageway.
From its opening, there was no transfer between directions at 42/8, because of its incredibly staggered platforms, which were built like that to maximize available width without underpinning buildings. In later years, transfers between platforms became possible by using the lower level platform. In 1988, with a renovation of the mezzanine, the fare controls were reconfigured to allow a free transfer between directions. As a result, the 41st Street passageway was moved into fare controls, and exits to 43rd and 8th had to close.
Renovation of Times Square began in 1998, and because of the scale of the station, continue to this day. One major aspect of the renovation involved replacing the original ramps to the BMT platforms with stairs and elevators. Also replaced were 8 narrow stairways from the Flushing mezzanine to the 7th Avenue line platforms, with 4 wide stairways. With the construction of new buildings for Reuters and Ernst and Young at 42nd and 7th, new in-building escalators improved access over former street level stairways. A surface level mezzanine was added on the southeast corner, now integrated into the new building there.
Times Square, the intersection is structurally little different from Herald Square, its existence as the "crossroads of the world," and its having the largest subway complex in the city was caused primarily by two factors: Grand Central's presence causing the original subway to swing westward, and the first Zoning Law in the United States, passed by the city in 1911, which ended the march of the city's northern central business district northward and locked it in as ending at 60th Street. Columbus Circle was built because it was expected that one day the city's theater district would be there. Columbia University moved to its current location expecting to be near the city's central business district one day. Neither came to be. Times Square is likely to remain the center of the city, and the "Crossroads of the World" for some time to come.
With the today's choice by the International Olympic Committee of New York as one of five finalist cities for the 2012 Olympics, Times Square station may yet see another change, as the 7 may be extended westward.
The Olympics bid is widely considered a long-shot. Mayor Bloomberg and Deputy Mayor Doctoroff believe that the #7 extension is a worthwhile project even if the Olympics don't happen. I personally have my doubts, but that is their argument. As a practical matter, they are extremely eager to see construction underway before next summer, to prove to the IOC that the city is serious about building the promised infrastructure.
Not least by the IOC. Realistically, it's a two horse race between Paris and Madrid, although the only decision which would surprise me would be one in favour of Moscow. The IOC seem to think similarly, their overall ratings of the five cities being as follows:
1 Paris 8.5
2 Madrid 8.3
3 London 7.6
4 New York 7.5
5 Moscow 6.5
This breaks down thus:
ACCOMMODATION
1= London 10.0
1= Paris 10.0
1= New York 10.0
4 Madrid 8.4
5 Moscow 7.4
ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT
1= London 8.6
1= Madrid 8.6
1= Paris 8.6
4= New York 7.6
4= Moscow 7.6
EXPERIENCE FROM PAST SPORTS EVENTS
1 Paris 9.0
2 New York 8.0
3 Madrid 7.4
4 Moscow 7.0
5 London 6.8
FINANCE
1= London 8.0
1= Madrid 8.0
1= Paris 8.0
4 New York 7.5
5 Moscow 7.2
GENERAL INFRASTRUCTURE
1 Madrid 8.5
2 Paris 7.8
3= New York 7.0
3= London 7.0
5 Moscow 6.8
GOVERNMENT SUPPORT, LEGAL ISSUES AND PUBLIC OPINION
1 Madrid 8.3
2 Paris 8.0
3 Moscow 7.5
4 London 7.2
5 New York 7.1
OLYMPIC VILLAGE
1 Madrid 8.7
2 Paris 8.3
3 Moscow 8.0
4 London 8.0
5 New York 7.7
OVERALL PROJECT AND LEGACY
1= Paris 9.0
1= Madrid 9.0
3= New York 8.0
3= London 8.0
5 Moscow 7.0
SAFETY AND SECURITY
1 Paris 8.3
2 London 7.7
3 Madrid 7.4
4 New York 7.2
5 Moscow 6.4
SPORTS VENUES
1 Madrid 8.7
2 Paris 8.0
3 New York 7.7
4= Moscow 7.1
4= London 7.1
TRANSPORT CONCEPT
1 Madrid 9.0
2 Paris 8.0
3= New York 6.7
3= London 6.7
5 Moscow 6.2
In terms of transport, the Madrid bid is pretty amazing. There's a metro extension, two new suburban rail stations, new high speed rail lines, and an expansion of Madrid Airport.
I can't find any plans for infrastructure improvements in Paris, but they don't really need much, as their Métro and RER are excellent to begin with. The Moscow site also seems vague.
London of course has come up with some really dumb ideas, like extending the East London Line to run from nowhere much to nowhere much. There's also a totally imbecilic idea of running high-speed shuttles from London St Pancras to Stratford International whilst maintaining a whole Eurostar and High-Speed Kent service. The IOC were totally scathing about London's infrastructure: the railway network is "often obsolete" and the IOC want huge capacity and safety upgrades; they've also smelt a rat at the dispersed nature of the sites, some over 30 miles from the Olympic Village, and have deemed the supposed average speed of buses between them at 35mph "unrealistic"; furthermore they've noticed that the main arterial roads are at capacity already.
I don't think anyone needs any filling in on NY's transport plan.
If the new stadium and the #7 extension are under construction by next summer, then they will be deemed more feasible, and New York's scores will go up. But New York is so far behind that I don't think it will be enough.
I don't think they're relying on this to any significant degree. NYC2012 has been working on the bid for a decade, and a very elaborate rationale was built up that didn't depend on 9/11 piggybacking.
The three most significant pieces of the construction puzzle are the Olympic Stadium, the #7 extension, and the Olympic Village in Queens. There are other construction projects, but these three stand out.
The Jets want the stadium to open their 2008 season, because their Meadowlands lease expires in 2007. The new stadium has to be under construction by sometime next year. If not, New York probably isn't getting the bid anyway.
The #7 extension is two stations. I think the MTA can build two stations in less than eight years. This is another piece that realistically needs to break ground before the IOC vote, simply to prove that the bid is serious.
The Olympic Village would be converted into apartments after the Games, and there is always a demand for apartments, especially with river views. I wouldn't worry about the Olympic Village getting built.
Archer Avenue is also two stations, and it took something like 15 years to build. Of course there wasn't the Olympics as an incentive, but that's still a worrisome bit of history. Doesn't bode well for the 7 extension.
Exactly. The 63rd St tunnel became "the tunnel to no where" so they had to do something with it. It's great there are 4 routes to Manhattan now, but the original intent of the tunnel was SO much more than that.
The same for the Archer line. It's great that it connected the jamaica and QUeens lines, and it also corrected the mistake of removing the subway all the way to the middle of no where at Queens Blvd and then 121st Street, and away from Jamaica station all those years, but it also was supposed to be so much more than we got.
The station finishings are actually a very small part of the cost. It's the tunneling and excavation that cost real money.
The TA has wanted the G off of Queens Blvd for 40 years.
Thus perhaps a better question to ask is "If NYC gets the 2012 Olympics, how much of our infrastructure improvement for the games will be fast tracked?" The only real answer I can come up with for it right now is that if NYC starts tommorow, there'll be fewer fast tracked programs than if they the day after. Most of the transit improvements for the games are needed now anyway, so why not just build them anyway? After all, it'll look good to the IOC.
Why should we even wait for the IOC to bless the whole thing? If they're gonna stick up their noses at us, then we should take our Olympic plan and build anyway; if nobody wants that, then, by all means, let's have a World's Fair (which is often easier to host than an Olympic festival...)
So what if countries boycott? We've already the world in the Big Apple. China has many a son and daughter in Chinatown, diplomats staff the consulates, Pakistan, Vietnam, the Caribbean, Latin America, Asia, and Europe have immigrant delegations. We can hold an Olympics on our own - WE DON'T NEED THE STINKIN' I.O.C.
That being said: the Olympics are better off in Philadelphia than in NYC. More space to move athletes around.
It has nothing to do with Eurocentrism. Each country is allowed one World's Fair per decade. Seattle was already awarded the World's Fair for 1962.
try getting the IOC to hold one of these in South America
In order to hold an Olympics, a city needs a certain amount of stability and wealth. This can only be guaranteed in North America, Europe and parts of Asia.
Well, the Ancient Greeks managed to hold Olympics before the Industrial revolution. Not quite that stable and wealthy a society, although it was stable and wealthy enough to be a legend to us.
Well, the Ancient Greeks managed to hold Olympics before the Industrial revolution. Not quite that stable and wealthy a society, although it was stable and wealthy enough to be a legend to us.
The modern Olympics have very different requirements from ancient Greece. There's a very long list of specific criteria: venues for the modern olympic sports; local transit; hotel rooms; airports; telecommunications; security. The ancient Greeks weren't concerned with any of this.
Again, I'd advise those who are curious to read the publicly available report evaluating the nine original candidate cities. It's an education.
As long as individual cities continue to submit credible bids, there will be no need to consider this. That said, the modern Olympics have tended to get more complicated with each iteration, and the IOC is now reversing that trend.
Local transit was unnecessary as Athletes stayed within walking distance at their city's thesaurion, which functioned as permanent "hotels". No-one was going far enough for air travel to be practical (okay, I know it wasn't invented yet...), and who needs telecommunications or security, when you're civilised?
Poor Aussies... I guess no-one could be stable who built gigantic bridges over harbours.
No, seriously, there are only a handful of European countries which would satisfy those criteria. Could you imagine the Games in Poland, Estonia, FYRO Macedonia, Romania, - hell, even Hungary - or about half the other countries in Europe?
And Australia and New Zealand are part of North America. :-) Geography be damned! World.nycsubway.org considers Australia part of Asia.
Bill "Newkirk"
Koi
--Mark
Apparently it still takes 30 years to dream up and build a rail line over 100 years later.
Unfortunately today when they see things aren't going good, they don't create more avenues and such.
Other than that you're using a cut, boring, and dry version of history with facts and dates. This is probably just 20% of the story, as history is writting by the people who live it, and not the metal sign going up on a building.
If you haven't done this, go find some old periodicals from this era, magazines and papers, and read the stories, editorials, letters, etc. Especially magazines where they have those LONG stories on things. It will humanize the post, and you'll most likely see a lot of similiarities to today.
History repeats itself, as human nature never changes.
And extend the 7 west.
The northbound J usually arrives at Chauncey St in the morning every 10 minutes on the 5's - 7:45, 7:55, 8:05, 8:15, etc...and I believe around 8:30 the first Z comes back from Manhattan, which terminates at Broadway Junction. Well, at the end of this huge gap in service, at 8:30, here comes that Z train. No word on what the hell happened to the three J trains that were supposed to precede it. Needless to say this run was extended to Jamaica Center. Meanwhile Manhattan-bound J's and Z's had been running local (of course by 8:30 everything was running local anyway...) but for some odd reason there was a huge backlog in Manhattan-bound J trains. Manhattan-bound J and Z's appeared to be on time, and the last Manhattan-bound Z came when it was supposed to, but then a whole bunch of Manhattan-bound J trains showed up. We passed one at Broadway Junction (which BTW was on the middle track for some reason), one at Alabama, one between Alabama and Van Siclen, and another between Cleveland and Norwood. What was up with that? I got to school 10 minutes late (that is, 10 minutes after the end of the 13-minute grace period).
Anyone know what the hell happened???
Me thinks that Chris was trying to start these riots.
The above images were actually resized to fit on my image host.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It really doesn't matter. All of the money paid out to those who need welfare is returned back into the system provinding work for vendors, grocers, farmers, and manufacturers, who in turn hire employees who also pay taxes.
And just to give Republicans equal time: It really doesn't matter how much money goes out the back door in the form of graft: it too must all be spent somewhere in the economy, unless they were planning to line their mattress with it.
Money is only money if it moves. It has no value at all if it stays in your bank account.
: ) Elias
No, because Anon_e_mouse has the ability to criticize Q-train's lifestyle without being demeaning. He can make constructive comments.
And you wonder why some people (moi included) think you're condescending. Why do you have to be so cruel to people? What do you hope to accomplish?
Can you elaborate on what you know offhand? This is a very serious matter.
Da Hui
Fares are done in cash on the bus and metrocard on bus and subway.
2.00 for train fare and local bus fare.
The subway is 24 hours unless noticed for track work or something.
Subway transfers are free in most places.
Care to explain this?
If you're paying with cash on a bus, you should ask as soon as you've paid your fare for a transfer. It'll be a little paper Metrocard-like thing that gets spit out of the bus farebox. Since it's free there's no reason not to get one, and while many bus drivers will assume you want one even without asking, it doesn't hurt to be sure and ask outright.
And most of the time, the driver gives the person a transfer without asking.(For people who pay cash, not metrocard).
When the train you're on doesn't go any further, you've found a terminal, pay $2 per person per ride, get on when you want to go somewhere and get off when you've gotten there, look at the signs to tell which train goes where (and get a map), depends on how far you're going, Safe: Rockefeller Center, Not Safe: New Lots Avenue, subway open 24 hours and your crews would gladly accept tips for good service.....though if you ask a few persons complainers here, good service is as rare to see as a buffalo burger at Yankee Stadium.
If you want to get ripped off.....
If you don't, put at least $10 on your MetroCard at once so that you earn free rides. Or consider buying one of the Unlimited Ride MetroCards. You know, it is ALL EXPLAINED HERE:
http://mta.info/nyct/general/index.html
2. Avoid general tourism questions. There are other web sites for that.
BUT, what the hell.
The fare is $2.00 and is payable with a MetroCard that can be purchased at a machine or a booth in the station. For how to tell what train goes where, Click Here or Here. If you need a map, go to a station booth and ask for one. On the map, terminals are found with the route letter/number in a square. For more detailed terminal info, see the guide at the bottom. As for getting on and off, that is pretty simple. Just look at the rollsign on the side or the LED/LCD sign on the side of some trains. Remember, no flash photography, stand to the RIGHT on escalators, no eye contact and just have fun and enjoy this great subway system. Also, don't forget to bring a CAMERA!
LINKS
* nycsubway.org Subway FAQ
* mta.info
* NYC Subway Fares
* How to ride the subway
Have fun.
-Chris
Here's how you ride the subway:
To get on the subway, you buy a MetroCard and swipe it at the turnstile, then walk through. Then you get on the train, stepping all the way in as far as you can, and hold on to one of the metal poles (all the legendary straps you might have heard of are gone). When you get to your stop, the conductor will announce the name of it, and then after the train has opened its doors you file towards the exit.
When you get to the subway station, go to the tall silver machine with a scrolling LCD sign on it -- this is a MetroCard Vending Machine. In some heavily-used stations there are small ones that only accept credit cards; if you want to pay in cash you need to use a big one. You touch the screen to start, then you want to buy a $20 Pay-Per-Ride MetroCard (this will actually give you $24 worth of rides on the card -- a little bonus from the MTA). If all the machines in a station are broken, not accepting bills, etc, you have to wait on line for the booth.
After you receive your MetroCard, swipe it with moderate speed like a credit card at one of the turnstiles, then walk through the turnstile. The magnetic strip should face towards you while you swipe it; there are instructions on the card itself if you need them. Don't worry if you swipe while someone is walking out of the station through the same turnstile; it won't eat your money, and you can just walk through after the other person has walked out.
As soon as you can, pick up a copy of The Map, available at major visitor hotspots like the New York Library, Times Square, and Grand Central. The A, C, E, N, Q, R, W, 1, 2, 3, 7, and 9 trains stop at Times Square, and the 4, 5, 6, and 7 trains stop at Grand Central (the 7 starts at Times Square and heads east towards Grand Central and then out to Queens; there is also a shuttle in between these two stations).
He said he was staying for a week; if so, the $21 seven-day unlimited is almost certainly going to be a better bet than a $20 pay-per-ride. It's pretty likely that in a week's touristing in NYC he will use more than twelve public transit journeys. The one extra dollar is worth paying just so that you don't have to keep worrying - you can hop on a bus for just a couple of blocks if you want to, whenever you want to, without any further expense all week.
While many stations have entrances at the intersection where you expect them, some do not. Most people I know have difficulty finding the entrance to the 5th Avenue station on the N/R/W, because they expect it to be right at 5th Avenue and 59th Street and there's no entrance there. Another better known example is that there is no entrance to West 4th Street station from West 4th Street itself.
When entering a station pay attention to see if the entrance specifies that it's for trains going in one direction only. If you're heading downtown (south) then don't use an entrance that says "Uptown Only".
As soon as you reach a station platform, whether directly through a bank of turnstiles or through a stairway or escalator, signs over each platform tell you which trains stop there and when. These signs may not apply overnights and on weekends when trains are often rerouted for construction. Scheduled reroutes are listed on flyers posted near some (but not all) station entrances, and on the MTA website. Payphones in the subway also make the information available through a free call (dial #3333).
Each train car has signs to tell you what route it's running on, but there are caveats: On trains with rollsigns, both terminals are always shown, with no indication of which way it's going right now. On trains with electronic signs, sometimes the train crew forgets to change the destination when the train switches direction, so it says it's going the opposite way from where it's really heading (this applies to bus destination signs as well). In general if you think you're on the correct platform based on the signs, then look for the route number/letter, which is almost always accurate, and assume it's going in the direction you expect.
Use a Metrocard for paying fares. Don't bother using cash for any fares if you can help it. For using value stored cards ("Pay Per Ride"), try to add at least $10 at a time to get a discount. If staying a week in NYC consider getting a 7-day unlimited card, good for subways, local and limited (but not express) buses, and the Roosevelt Island tram. There is no way to visually distinguish these two types of cards once purchased, you have to check on readers available near most subway station booths.
When using a Metrocard make sure the yellow side with the magnetic stripe faces you at all times, and swipe/insert the card in the direction of the arrows (it's amazing to me how many people fail to do this). I found that swiping on the subway turnstiles took some getting used to ... swipe at an angle, too slowly, or too quickly, and the turnstile will complain and not let you in. Sometimes you just get a dirty reader and have to swipe repeatedly. In cases where you spend a fare without the turnstile letting you in, go to the nearest staffed booth and explain what happened-- they can check your card and then unlock the entry gate to let you in.
Enjoy!
In Manhattan, uptown is better understood as being northbound, while downtown is better understood as being southbound.
Disclaimer: These are only my observations and recommendations. Whether they're any good remains to be seen. However they're free of charge. You get what you pay for, so caveat emptor!
The subway is a pretty pussycat place compared to what it was back in the heyday (and even then it wasn't nearly as bad as many of the legends seem to imply). Your chances of becoming a victim are vanishingly small, so anything I say is little more than pedantry, but could help in the long run.
I would give you this advice, much of which also applies to the city and life in general, not just the subway. In fact most of it is geared to life in general, and happens to be useful on the subway.
During the day, the entire system is pretty damn safe, especially if you follow my advice about conduct below. Late at night, I'd avoid some of the remote ends of lines in Brooklyn and the Bronx, as well as upper Manhattan (125 and above on the west side, 110 and above on the east side), unless I knew exactly where I was going. The New Lots line (the 3 line's far reaches in Brooklyn) comes to mind as a place you might not want to go, though there are some other lines that run through rough neighborhoods as well. But in Manhattan below 110 (125 on the 1 and 9 lines), Queens, and the stations in 'downtown' Brooklyn (i.e. near Manhattan) you're pretty much guaranteed a safe ride. And when I say "late at night," I mean really late - in Manhattan, after 11 on weeknights and after midnight to 1 am on weekends, and an hour or two earlier in the outer boroughs - most of the lines are crowded well past the end of rush hour.
If you do venture out to the far reaches of the city (Harlem, outer boroughs), or travel very late at night, you're probably more at risk on the street or in the station on the platform than you are on the train. For one, I wouldn't get off a train at New Lots at 2 am and explore the neighborhood, even if I felt safe enough to ride a train there. It's probably a pretty good generalization that the lettered lines run through "better" neighborhoods than the numbered lines in their outer reaches (though there are exceptions), because of the politics of how the system was developed and evolved.
The general idea is to walk with confidence, aware of your surroundings. Don't flash expensive belongings or make yourself look like someone who's lost or afraid. Don't look like a tourist, basically. If you are assertive and aware, with your head up, looking around (not gawking like a tourist, but looking around, basically like someone who knows what they want in life and is in control of their world), keeping up a fairly good pace (racewalking not necessary, just not lollygagging in desolate places), standing erect with arms swinging freely and proudly, the bad guys, even if they're 5 feet away from you, will not bother to confront you, will simply move on and seek easier prey. If there are cars parked adjacent to your sidewalk, walk in the middle of the sidewalk if it's desolate, and keep an eye out for alleys or anyplace else a crook can pop out of. If there are no cars parked, then walk along the curb. If you're really in doubt and on a desolate street, walk out in the street, preferably facing toward oncoming traffic, though that's not always possible. The idea is to prevent someone from jumping out in front of you or grabbing you - if they have to run or jump or make overt aggressive moves, that gives you time to take evasive or assertive action in your defense. Crooks know that people who carry themselves like I describe are the type of people most likely to fight back, to take precautions against crime, to remember accurate descriptions to provide to the police, and the lowlives look for someone who won't do those things. Most crime prevention occurs without your knowing that one was about to happen - the bad guys move on without confronting you at all.
I wouldn't enter an empty subway car late at night, or a car with a single "suspicious" looking individual, or worse yet, a group of "suspicious" looking individuals seated together, or even worse yet, "suspicious" individuals who appear associated with one another spread about the car - prolonged eye contact is one tipoff that separated individuals are in cahoots. I'll leave it to you to decide what "suspicious" means. If possible, get into a car with non-suspicious people in it, better yet, multiple non-suspicious people in various locations in the car who don't seem to know one another. Crooks are much more wary when surrounded by potential Bernie Goetzes. It's not proper etiquette to enter a sparsely populated car and sit very close to someone - give them their space, particularly if you're a man and the other passenger is a lone woman. It's like going to the urinal - never use the one right next to another guy if there are others available. Direct eye contact is also frowned upon - nothing really wrong with it, but people will think you're a little screwy if you stare at them. A good blank stare - not a Dude Where's My Car retard stare, but a poker face, is a good asset.
Also, if you stand near the middle of the platform and look up at the ceiling above the track edge, at some point you'll see a black and white striped board, called the 'zebra.' The zebra denotes the conductor's position on the train (he/she must explicitly find it and point it out at each stop to ensure that the train has stopped at the correct place, and if you're the least bit nervous, get on the train near the zebra. If you do run into some shady characters, there's an MTA employee with a radio right near you. He/she will be behind a closed door in all likelihood, in the cab at the end of the car, but will be accessible in an emergency. On most trains there are two crew members - one at the front who operates the train, and the conductor in the middle (nobody is stationed at the back end, except on very short trains where the conductor rides in the back, though that's about where they would be relative to the train operator on a full-length train anway.) Alternately, if the station appears unsafe, try to stand within sight range of the entrance (so you can see any troublemakers right away) and the station agent in the booth (if there is one). If you're nervous on the train, sit near the middle of the car without a nearby door out of your line of sight, so you can flee either way if necessary, and it's more difficult for someone to sneak up on you. It's not a good idea to stand near the edge of the platform, for obvious reasons, but I do it anyway. Do as I say, not as I do.
If on the off off off chance you find yourself on the trackbed, with train headlights barreling upon you, in most cases the best place to go is under the platform you fell from. Don't count on the train being able to stop before it reaches you - in most cases it won't, no matter what the operator tries to do. You're going to have to avoid it if you don't want to become roadkill, because the train has no way to avoid you. Don't try to outrun the train - you can't - you're going to have to move aside so it goes past you. Just avoid the "third rail" - it's a tallish thing covered by a wooden board, higher up than the rails the train rides on, off to one side of the riding rails, usually the side opposite the platform serving those tracks - that's 600 V of electrifying pleasure that will cause your bad day to become much, much worse. Just get snug up as far from the tracks as possible (you'll become intimate with a number of unsavory subterranean flora and fauna, no doubt, but this is no time to be squeamish), because the trains have "shoes" sticking out the sides near the bottom that extend beyond the platform edge (these shoes are what makes contact with the third rail). Don't bother trying to climb up onto the platform if a train's coming - it's not easy, especially if you're not in peak phyical shape. If getting under the platform fails, the next best place is to cross the tracks and to let the train run alongside of you - usually standing between vertical girders separating two sets of tracks is what you'll find, though you have to be careful not to touch the third rail of either set of tracks abutting those girders. If you're up against a far wall, and that wall has red and white diagonal stripes - find someplace else, because there's not enough room to stand. Even if there aren't those stripes, it's gonna be close, particularly if your old size 34 pants don't quite make it around your waist anymore. And when the train goes by there will be a suction tending to pull you toward the train - be ready to resist that! Failing that, if there's a trench between the rails (i.e. the railroad ties are broken and there's a gully between the rails) you can lay there, getting as flat as possible against the ground. Not a very clean place, but if the gully is there, you should be able to clear the undercarriage of the train. If there's no gully, laying atop the railroad ties will almost certainly result in your demise - look elsewhere. Then again, nothing is guaranteed, so you should do your damndest not to end up on the trackbed in the first place.
As a general rule, you're almost certainly safer in a "bad" neighborhood filled with many people who don't know each other, than you are in a "good" but desolate neighborhood. I feel much more comfortable walking 125th street in Harlem during the day than I am walking in the Financial District late at night. 125 is filled with pedestrians and traffic, while Wall Street is a ghost town in the off-hours. Parks, even in "good" neighborhoods are notorious robbery grounds after-hours.
If you feel you're being followed, the best thing is to keep walking, and pick up the pace a little (though don't break into a full-on run). It's proably not a good idea to turn around and look too much - give one or two glances to let them know that you know. After that, if you turn your head 90 degrees to the side to look across the street or into a store window, you can see them in your peripheral vision, without giving the impression that you're nervous or afraid of them. DON'T try to walk down some side street; stay on major avenues (or try to get to one if you're on a side street). If you're walking and you think you're being followed by someone in a vehicle, simply reverse direction - it's a major PITA to reverse on most city streets, and if they do you know they're following you. If you know you're being followed, flag down a cab or a police car (both of which constitute a substantial fraction of the vehicles on the road in Manhattan) - this should be trivial on a major avenue. On a side street walk out into the street - if they want to rob you they'll just have to do it there, where interference is much more likely and you're much more visible and likely to attract attention. I particularly don't like walking under construction walkways, because they create deep shadows and glare, and the supports impede a quick escape to the street, so I avoid them late at night whenever possible, even if it means walking in the rain. If a confrontation is imminent, try to engage them at a distance (if you're being alert and assertive, and using common sense, there's no chance someone could pop up in your face on a deserted street since you'd see them coming from far away, and wouldn't give them a chance to jump out of an alleyway or from between cars.) - this takes them off-balance, and gives you a chance to attempt escape if necessary.
But the best way to avoid trouble is not to get into it in the first place - common sense and trying to act like a person who won't be an easy target accomplishes 99% of this.
The other 1% is strictly firepower, cold steel and hot lead, though carrying of said items is all but illegal in the Big Apple :(
You offered mostly good advice, but this particular item may not be correct. I don't believe there is survivable clearance under most platform edges.
I haven't really tried to lay down there and see if it works, but it looks like there's a pretty decent amount of space under most platform edges.
It probably would be very hard avoiding the 3rd rail shoes.
It might have been disgusting to put your face into that crud, but better to be alive and barfing than being a sewn-together corpse.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
#2. Almost all subway and most bus service is run by MTA NYC Transit. There are also private bus lines, commuter lines run by MTA and NJTransit and a subway line run by the Port Authority.
#3. The basic fare is $2. This will take you all over the subway system. If you use a metrocard (purchase at any subway station and at many newsstands & some delis) you can transfer once from bus to train or train to bus. You can also buy "all day," "all week" and "all month" metrocards. Buses accept metrocards and coins, but not bills. No change is given. If you pay by metrocard your transfer is automatically recorded. If you pay by coin, ask for a transfer (but it will not let you transfer to a train.)
#4 Most subway stations have a (usually surly) clerk who can give you some information. Penn Station, Grand Central & Times Square have more comprehensive info centers. You might also wish to browse your local library or bookstore.
As for service, if you're traveling on the weekends or late nights, definitely check the MTA website before leaving. Sometimes, there are so many service diversions and reroutes on the weekends or late nights that the subway map is almost meaningless.
If you're staying in NYC for a week or more, get the 7-day unlimited metrocard for 21 dollars. It's ultimate power. You can travel anywhere, anytime, on any train or local bus for 7 days. Transfers between subways and busses (or two busses are free) if you have a metrocard.
Have fun...
So, why did you get another account with them, why not hotmail or some other provider?
Elias
You change it yourself. It appears in the "Post a New Response Form" Below. Just select it, and write in the new one.
After all, this information is stored on YOUR computer (in a cookie), not Dave's.
Elias
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Yup, I lost mine in 1970 at 17 yrs old with an Eighth Avenue streetwalker.
If you are so angry at Yahoo for cutting off your email, and cursing them out as being evil...
...Why the heck would you go back and use them again for another e-mail address!!???!!!???
Why not get an email elsewhere?
Get yourself a real email service..(AT&T Worldnet, Earthlink, RR.net etc.),
Or maybe I just read too many stories on this site...
Are you suggesting we're not normal?
The truth is, the person you talked to hasn't a clue as to what happened. The account records are probably not even available to them. All they know is what they told you: it was a TOS violation.
You will need to go much much higher up the Yahoo chain of command to find a person who knows WHY they thought it was a violation. And at that level it can be somewhat arbitrary anyway.
If you are a serious user of the internet, and want serious business oriented service, you must go to a paid provider. I recommend webmasters.com, with 750 MB storage, huge bandwidth, and 300 POP3 email and FTP accounts. They are happy to let you sub-let space on your account to other users. The price is only 9.95/mo, but you will need to obtain your own domain name, the one you were using is probably available. The have real live people working there, and they will talk to you, they will know you and your account.
When you are serious about it... look into it.
Elias
I pay a monthly fee for Internet access through AT&T. They can't discontinue my email with nothing more than TOS for a reason. They would have to tell me specifically why.
As with Yahoo! and all these other free email accounts, I never liked them, but you know what, the companies have no other choice. Note all the ads that have to pay for these 'free' accounts. Of course if you're willing, you can pay more for a bigger mailbox, spam protection, etc.
I'm surprised that up to this point, you haven't considered having your own website displaying all your photos and other rail-related content. Call it www.salaamallah.com or something. All web hosts give email accounts with web plans so you have your own personal email address with no restrictions. I'd strongly recommend it.
Legends of the IRT -
I had a yahoo account a LONG time ago that was spammed, and when geocities were bought out, and i had to agree to get ads in my email, i just cancelled.
Same with hotmail, MSoft gets you the spam w/in minutes of signign up.
They were killed in Colorado when a beam fell from an overpass onto their automobile on an expressway as they were going by.
Anyone who was in any way affected by 9/11, and is still here, has probably made a conscious choice to be here, despite the risks. Probably because we can live in a way in place like Brooklyn that is scarce in the rest of the country, with rail transit being a part of that.
How ironic to see a family that made the opposite decision killed off in a freak accident. What can you say? My wife and I have avoided taking the same train since 9/11, so at least one of us will remain for the kids regardless, but when we are in our car it is usually the four of us together.
Go about your daily lives doing whatever makes you happy. 'Cause no matter what you do, or where you go, when God says it's time to "check out", then that's all folks.
Go about your daily lives doing whatever makes you happy. 'Cause no matter what you do, or where you go, when King Atheist Man says it's time to "check out", then that's all folks
Nietche is dead! (signed God)
Alternatively, go about your daily lives you ignorant masses. Because when ACROSS takes control of the world, it won't really matter anyway.
HAIL ILPALAZZO!
Just because you dont "believe" in electricity isn't going to stop the light from coming on.
: ) Elias
Right. My kids are watching this PBS show "Colonial House." It's all about the dangers felt by the early settlers. Some of the participants had to leave when their family members were killed in an auto accident in Texas.
So subway training for the kids (independent version) will take place Memorial Day weekend. Osama or no, it beats driving, though I expect I'll have to teach them to do that someday too.
-Broadway Buffer
There are plenty of B/O's who vandalize their buses...there are plenty of bad seeds working for the MTA right now, I'm sure.
-Broadway Buffer
Da Hui
-Broadway Buffer (NOT DefJef!!!!!!!!!)
David
Good.
Re: "is it DefJef?" DefJef almost always includes a piece of information that gives away his post as fiction (e.g., nonesistent car class.) And he never responds.
While "glitches" in the announcements used to be occassional, now they're running wild through most of the sets the (6) has. Namely, the Manhattan/Brooklyn Bridge-bound trains. The glitch starts when the train enters 125 Street in Manhattan, and the transfer announcement does not play. Then, one of two things will happen: Either the train identification message will shut off completely, and the C/R will start making manual announcements, or the train will continue announcing itself as a Manhattan-bound (6). I very rarely hear a train announce itself as going to "Brooklyn Bridge" anymore. Also, the exterior speakers on some trains don't work at all.
For some reason, the strip maps are absolutely filthy. It's like the Westchester Yard crew dumps a fresh splotch of mud on them each morning before the train leaves the yard. I'm serious...on the (4) and (5), the maps are pretty much shiny and spotless, but on the (6), they're filthy. It's like they're using the wrong type of cleaning solution or something.
But what REALLY got me was this:
All of the strip maps on the (6) have been updated to reflect the 2001 changes to the (F)(Q)(V) and (W), except for maybe one or two cars. You know how they do it....they affix a little sticker over the current strip map, and the sticker has the updated transfers on it. It blends in well, and works nicely. After the Manhattan Bridge service changes of 2004, all of the strip maps on the (6) had to be updated AGAIN, this time to reflect the transfer changes at Bleecker Street. Most (6) trains now have the "third" generation strip maps. Some cars still have "second" generation maps, but they'll be fixed soon I'm sure.
Today, however, I was in a car that had a FIRST generation strip map, with the Bleecker Street changes slapped on top of it. C'mon now...does Westchester have any morals at all?
Whew! I like the (6), but it's a hell of a break for me that my favorite line, the (4) is good to go! :-)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
He eventually pissed off miss ettinger, and she tried fighting back, but was struck down by charlie
Geez, shut up Charlie!
Westchester, well...they did once allow trains out into service that looked like they paid a visit to the Fresh Kills landfill, and it is a yard that had to deal with the 'birds when they were ready to kick. Oh yeah, and to put a cap on the conditions of the line itself, whose stations are being renvoated, and whose look like a dump?
"This is Bleecker Street! Transfer is available to the B, D, F and Q trains!"
Can't remember the car number though.
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
Kathleen Cannon of the Burlington County Times is preparing a story on NJ
Transit's crackdown on rail photography. She requests anyone with direct
personal experience with this (i.e., encounters with NJ Transit police or
personnel), or reliable information, to contact her:
Kathleen Cannon
kathcannon@yahoo.com
I've pretty much had it with these "M&M" kids claiming they're collecting for their basketball team. WHY is it always just M&Ms?? And does anyone believe them?
I will never buy batteries from panhandlers. This is ALL stolen merchandise! I used to work in a supermarket years ago and these crooks would steal our batteries and just clean out the shelves. I would often have the chase them down the street with them running with BAGS full of meat, candy, Heath and Beauty Aids and Batteries.
If you buy from them, you're supporting a criminal activity. Plain and simple.
Are you so positive to this statement? The supermarket you worked in does not have these cheap knockoff batteries, as there is a strip of wholesale stores in the area of 28th and Broadway that DO sell these knockoffs. I do feel your frustration Steve (I would hunt these shoplifters down too.), but this does not mean that ALL sellers in the subway are thieves.
Yeah...illegally selling items on a subway is a GREAT way to stay out of trouble...
And in any case, how does selling candy keep you out of trouble?
Most panhandlers seem to fall in one of two groups, one being the M&M kids, the other all following the same shtick, as if reading from a script:
Good morning/afternoon/evening Ladies and Gentlemen. Excuse the interruption - I'm sorry to interrupt your day and your trip. I promise you I won't be long.
Thank you. God Bless you all.
It must be pretty lucrative, to see the same faces over and over every week in the train - if it wasn't they'd find somewhere else to shill...
Which is why I believe the only effective way to stop panhandling is to make it illegal to give to panhandlers.
Yeah, the "M&M" kids are really annoying. As far as "staying out of trouble" is concerned, how about being in school in the middle of the day instead of hustling candy on a train??!
I don't seem to mind the little old Chinese ladies selling batteries and trinkets as much because they don't say anything. Probably because they don't speak English.
Agreed. What makes you think they're going to stay out of trouble selling stolen candy? First, they will eventually get caught stealing sooner or later. This type of organized crime does not go unpunished forever and I've seen kids get taken by the police for stealing a bag of candy.
"Soliciting on CTA trains is prohibited. Violators will be arrested."
wayne
TWICE last week I spotted the SAME chic (not Mystical) selling M&Ms
"for a school senior trip"....
1 day she was selling around 12:45pm and 11:15am the next...
Shunt the "Senior tripper" be in school prepping for Finals???
Atleast they quit with the basketball gagga (games we were never offered tickets to)
but c'mon.... logics says if it's the end of the year and you're a senior, your arse
BETTER BE IN SCHOOL because of Prof. REGENTS and Dr. RCT.
O yah!!
Ha ha, that is a blast!
That has got to be one of the funniest lines I have seen here today !
Seriously though , I too can not stand religious fanatics .
"MONEY MAKES THE NOISE GO AWAY! MONEY MAKES THE NOISE GO AWAY! MONEY MAKES THE NOISE GO AWAY! MONEY MAKES THE NOISE GO AWAY!"
That SOB. Sorry, not too lovable. He needed some Bensonhurst adjudication.
On the other hand, I never liked the blind accordian player
"Ladies and gentlemen, your donations are greeetly appreciated"
[cue godfather theme on accordian].
The main annoyance was him shoving through the car no matter how crowded it was with his giant accordian.
I hate the fact that these little kids have nothing better to do than to raise money for some dumb sport, and nothing thats actually worth educational value.
All it proves is he's not the NATURAL father...could be he married the woman who already had the five kids.
[My favorite is the stand-up comic who told jokes about being homeless before asking for change, although I haven't seen him since 2000.]
That sounds like 'The Subterranian Comedian', a homeless comic who had some of his skits recorded on the CD 'SubPlay'. His jokes are used as the segway between different music cuts. He's actually pretty good!
He said kids, not stepkids, not "her kids" but "my kids". What you say may be true, but he didn't convince anyone. He's still at it, but now he's doing the UHO thing. I saw him last October on an E train.
Five kids is no excuse.
They're probably available for free, or at greatly reduced cost, from Planned Parenthood or other similar organizations.
In this age, everybody wants to get laid
That's been true ever since Australiopithicus first stood upright in the Olduvai Gorge.
Bullcrap, and no excuse. Do you think "resposible" people aren't in it for the sex too? Do you think they are any different?
No excuse.
others try and take care of there children even if it means there poor.
More bullcrap. They expect a handout when they can't afford them. If they would have been responsible before they had "too many kids", they wouldn't be in that predicament. And the cycle continues, because the children suffer, and wind up repeating the mistakes of the parents.
In this age, everybody wants to get laid,...
Do you think that wasn't the case for eons? Sorry to disappoint, but the current generations didn't discover it as much as they think they did. Whatever can be thought of today has already been done and thought about thousands of years ago. And poor people don't have any more urges than any one else. There's nothing wrong with that as long as it's done responsibly.
....thats what leads to too many kids being born and not enough support for them
THERE is no excuse to have 5 children if someone can't afford it. There is no excuse to have two children if they can't afford it. Everyone else winds up paying for it, the person having them think it's their "right" to get assistence, and in the end the children of this scenario suffer. Of course there are people who's circumstances left them with a need for assistance, those are not the one I am complaining about. But there are many that did it to themselves.
That's it, I'm getting on the train and leaving this station.
I guess people that can afford kids don't do it for the sex.
(end sarcasm)
So you think in the 1920's they didn't ? Or in 1776 ? Or in 450 B.C. ?
I hate to break it to you , but wanting that is nothing people just figured out how to do .
Aren't those like $150 a pair?
Generally don't mind sellers of stuff, guess if they have sufficient quantities of it, they got it wholesale. Suspicious of the b-ball kids. If they really had a team, they'd proudly tell us more about it. Particularly annoyed at UHO and the like who claim to work out of St Agnes church or some other legit place.
The NYPD should be doing more to get these folks off the subway trains and the system. They are a distraction and do nothing but distract commuters. As for the entertainers/musicians, you have that Arts for Transit program the MTA officially allows.
"My name is X, I'm an unemployed union carpenter. I'd rather be working that begging, but at least I'm not out robbing, I'm not out stealing, and I'd appreciate your help for myself and my family."
He did very well. There were a lot of unemployed union carpenters at the time, and everyone knew it. But later, in the late 1980s boom, he was still on the trains and in Grand Central, at a time when they were bringing in carpenters from all over the country to work here. He wasn't collecting as much money then. A boom was a bust for him. The last time I saw him was in the early 1990s -- a lot of construction workers were out of work, so presumably more people were giving him money.
I hope he survived the late 1990s construction boom.
I cant remember when or what train(might have been the Q).
Its been awhile so its alittle foggy remembering.
But you had this black guy come in, tell us how he was poor?/or had some disease?. Anyways, after all this bull, all of a sudden this lady comes from the next car(via storm doors) and starts her story. As soon as they saw each other, they talked(more like acted) and I think one of them handed the other change. It was amusing.
Sorry if thats not clear enough, its been a good while.
Sorry to bother you but it's hard, sleeping on the train all day, going through garbage cans....if you were in the same position I was would you help that person out?....
I'm having a bad memory day so that's all I can recall from these two. They use Parkside Ave as their place to sleep, usually on the southbound side.
They're reasonably talented, but a subway car is not the appropriate place for their act.
Yes! The London Undergound has licensed buskers for the last year, to make them legitimate, and this is seen as a successful scheme - the licensed musiciansare at static pitches in stations, though, not on the trains.
See http://tube.tfl.gov.uk/content/metro/04/0405/19/ currently.
Very good stuff.
One time a kid was boasting they were on TV.
There was a cop show showing TA Police and a film crew showed the kids getting busted on the subway.
And how would I obtain the current RATP map? I tried last time(about a yr or 2 ago) and they said that they didnt have any or something even though they do have maps. I e-mailed them earlier, but just incase, any other ways to get the current RATP maps?
I even asked for maps(from there respective sites) from singapore and they've sent me quite a few, same with london, chicago, even PATCO which has one line. So why did RATP give me the run around last time?
You can always try calling the RATP English Information Center at 011 33 8 92 68 41 14 to see if they'll send you a map. Tell them that you're visiting and not that you simply want a collection.
Let me know how that goes. If all else fails, I can write you a letter in French to send via air mail to the RATP for a map. Sometimes, things tend to go faster when you have the ability to communicate in their native language. After all, not everybody in France has the ability to understand English.
I try not to call most of the time because I dont want to keep lieing about visiting and then they tell me to pick it up on arrival.
Thanks for your help on the letter, I try to always plan a trip as a group, so I tell them I'm in a group that needs maps. ;) (I like getting multiple maps)
At the 7th Street Station, you can descend down a flight of stairs and take the Red Line two stops east to the terminal at Union Station or north and west all the way to the San Fernando Valley.
Correct - Wilshire/Western and North Hollywood.
Just think 15 years ago, the Los Angeles metropolitan area had no subway, only a vast bus network. Remember Lethal Weapon 3 (1992) with the shootout in either the Red or Blue line under construction? You left coast guys sure have come a long way.
http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=14139
Rail plan worries Arcadia leaders
ARCADIA, Calif. -- The $1.3 billion budget to build a
Pasadena-to-Montclair Gold Line only allows for a street-level crossing
at Santa Anita Avenue, but city officials favor a plan to keep car
traffic away from the railroad tracks, according to the Pasadena
Star-News.
The Arcadia City Council on Tuesday reviewed aspects of the recently
published draft environmental impact report for the Metro Gold Line
Foothill Extension. The 24-mile light rail route would pass through
Arcadia on the Burlington Northern Santa Fe tracks.
The Gold Line would "cross' six Arcadia intersections Baldwin Avenue,
Colorado Boulevard, Santa Anita Avenue, First Avenue/Santa Clara
Street, Second Avenue/Huntington Drive and Fifth Avenue. However,
the tracks are on bridges over Colorado and Second/Huntington, and
run down the middle of the Foothill (210) Freeway at the Baldwin
crossing.
That leaves Santa Anita Avenue as the city's biggest concern, because
the north-south artery is one of only two onramp/offramps to the 210
Freeway within Arcadia.
"I think we're the only city that has asked for a grade separation,' City
Manager Bill Kelly told the council.
"Isn't the Arcadia station projected to be the most heavily used?'
Mayor Gary Kovacic asked, referring to the Pasadena-to-Montclair
extension. Yes, answered Assistant City Manager Don Penman.
Then couldn't the city refuse to have a station unless the Gold Line
Construction Authority agrees to "separate' the railroad tracks from
Santa Anita Avenue? proposed City Councilman Mickey Segal.
The proposed site for Arcadia's Gold Line station is just east of Santa
Anita Avenue, at the First/Santa Clara intersection.
Or, Kovacic suggested, maybe Arcadia's station could be at Baldwin
Avenue, in the middle of the freeway as are three Gold Line stops in
Pasadena at Lake, Allen and Sierra Madre Villa avenues.
Under MTA criteria, a street must have traffic volume of at least
80,000 vehicles per day to be considered for anything other than a
ground-level rail crossing. Santa Anita's average traffic volume is
32,000 cars per day, said City Engineer Phil Wray.
One idea not studied in the EIR is to "lower' Santa Anita so the tracks
run above the street. The EIR, however, examines two other options:
leaving Santa Anita as is while building a bridge that would descend
to street level at First/Santa Clara; or building a bridge that would
bring Gold Line trains to an elevated station at First/Santa Clara.
(This item appeared in the Pasadena Star-News May 19, 2004)
Now I am used to the people giving this sorry bitch "Not 1, not 2, not 4, but 8... 8 battieres for 1 dollar" and they're alll usually repackaged wasted batteries that last for approx 5 minutes. (Now why do people still buy them is still a mystery)
But this guy was selling legit batteries and making a helluva a lot of money since about 3 people brought them. I am guessing he stole the duracell batteries and sold them on the street. (That's a guess)
Sounds like the work of a poster here! :)
You might be right Clayton. :-P
Da Hui
How about the Rumble at Coney Island, or the Thriller in the Q train? :-)
That's why the person who sells them has to say the word FAKE from time to time.
Here we go..
DURASELL (same Bethel, CT address as on the real batteries - probably copied verbatim by whatever factory in China they were made)
Super Extra Heavy Duty (yeah...)
Quality: Our quality control ensures you get the best possible performance in terns [sic] of life, leakage resistance, freshness and safty [sic].
They also have the PowerCheck tester thingy on the batteries, but it doesn't do anything - they just copied the drawing from the real batteries.
8 for a buck - you get what you pay for...
Well........buyer beware !
Bill "Newkirk"
It is a lot more than you'll pay at a Wal-Mart or Target or Home Depot or other "big box" store. (Where you can get a box of 24 name-brand AA alkalines for something like $6 or $7 if you shop around.)
At a sale at Circuit City some months ago, I bought a pack of 48 Maxell AA's for less than ten dollars. I use them in my CD player and they seem to last as loong as any brand I've used.
wayne
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
But this guy was selling legit batteries and making a helluva a lot of money since about 3 people brought them. I am guessing he stole the duracell batteries and sold them on the street.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Alargule
The Freedom Tower sucks and at least the Twin Towers showed dominance in the city's skyline, they are not puny that's for sure!
http://www.nydailynews.com/05-19-2004/business/story/194709p-168246c.html
DISCLAIMER: The preceding is JMHO and not meant to put down the humble or arrogant opinions of others.
There's still time to debate a little. The infrastructure (electrical, steam, plumbing, new PATH terminal, Fulton Transit Center etc.) are in progress, so there's still opportunity to talk about what goes on top.
How's seven World Trade Center coming along? A 52 story building replacing the 48 story one. Isn't that supposed to open by 2005?
After almost three years of debate, the idea of rebuilding the twin towers was rejected, and groundbreaking on the Freedom Tower is scheduled for July 4th. That's actually an earlier date than a lot of the infrastructure Ron mentioned: the FSTC and the PATH terminal won't break ground till late '04 or early '05.
Mind you, I understand the argument for recreating the twin towers, and to an extent I was sympathetic to it, but the point of decision has passed, and I see no sign that officials have any intention of re-opening it.
How's seven World Trade Center coming along? A 52 story building replacing the 48 story one. Isn't that supposed to open by 2005?
I walk by the construction site every day. It's proceeding on schedule. The one thing it lacks is a tenant.
True. The public hearings wiull be wrapped up this summer and engineering is going on. A lot of infrastructure is already going in, though.
"I walk by the construction site every day. It's proceeding on schedule. The one thing it lacks is a tenant."
OK. I predict it will have some before long.
It's a no brainer, I like Bush, but one of the things he should've done was push Pataki aside and make this a national issue. The Pentagon got repaired, no questions asked. First order of business should have been to rebuild them bigger (slightly) and better. All of our politicians were blathering about rebuilding them shortly after the attacks, where are they now? They're all pu$$ies, too busy blaming our troops, intelligence, cops, firemen, presidents for the attacks, not the actual people who perpetrated the crime!!! The world is laughing at us right now, we need to show no remorse and clean house in the Middle East, regardless of what the French, Spanish, UN (HA!) and the rest of the world try to sway us to do.
I'm glad to see an excellent proposal finally emerge.
Of course, this is just my honest opinion.
Bill "Newkirk"
Without doubt, the emergency stairways will be dispersed rather than clustered together in the core, and will be shielded with concrete or something to that effect.
It was solved in a field in southern Pennsylvania. Namely do not allow any one to take unauthorized control of an aircraft. Use any means necessary to stop, subdue, restrain, or kill any person trying to execute said crime.
John
No it wasn't. There is more than one kind of emergency. A fire could start halfway up a tower from causes having nothing to with terrorism, and the people above that level would still be trapped.
"Rebuilding the Twin Towers will heal the psychological wounds of many."
Of course you know many are going to challenge that saying it will further traumatize many.
"Rebuilding the Twin Towers will heal the psychological wounds of many."
Of course you know many are going to challenge that saying it will further traumatize many.
A number of months ago there was a discussion about roadside memorials that have been erected by grieving families of killed motorists in news:misc.transport.road. A number of state transportation departments do not permit such monuments and in many cases they look the other way when families put them up. My opinion on this out in the open, public grieving is that it is in you face grieving. I happen to believe the "Freedom Tower" is a larger version of an in you face grieving road side monument.
Monument and memorials to the dead belong in cemeteries.
Not rebuilding the World Trade Center Twin Towers as they were is tantamount to an admission of defeat to the enemies that destroyed them and want to destroy the American way of life that we all enjoy.
John
I've said just recently that not ONLY isn't putting back a replicate an act of patriotic bad faith, but even MORE so is the "Freedom Tower" "Ministry of Truth" doublespeak. It makes whatever goes up on that "hallowed ground" a frigging TARGET, and any morons that choose to lease space within it.
Forgive me, neocons - but I was raised in an America that ROSE to challenges, that lived in perpetual TERRORISM that the Russkies could, at ANY moment, drop the "big one" ANIHILATING THE NATION without any warning at all. Bend over and kiss your asp goodbye. "When you SEE the flash, DUCK AND COVER." (google it if the words mean nothing to you - say hello to "Bert the turtle" ... such was *MY* life growing up, and that of MOST Americans. And we WENT ON WITH OUR LIVES DESPITE IT! :(
Pandering pusbrains who COWER to Shrub and his terrorist boogeymen. I came from an AMERICA that wouldn't STAND for this qwap. :(
DEFINITELY ... the terrorists *HAVE* won ... and their name is George Bush. =(
You're an idiot. Sorry to break it to you.
Were you around for the "cold war" by any chance? Those of us who lived through it since the 1950's find people who find terrorists behind every woodpile ... well ... amusing. :(
Dave
til next time
THAT IS NO REASON NOT TO BUILD THEM
If we avoided doing anything because it would be a "target," we would live in caves like filthy Taliban and Al Qaeda.
Murder Al Qaeda and murder their families.
*-Corrected, it's CPN, not CPW.
He was a great talent and a nice man. Jack Klugman has said that the world has lost a wonderful, warm, genuine person.
He will always be Felix Unger to so many of us NY'ers.
Who can forget:
* The appearance of "Homer Hankie" in the famous subway episode;
* Felix Unger and the Sophisticados;
* Felix' reggae hit that went like this:
"Once there was a man named Oscar
Oscar, Oscar, Oscar
And Oscar abandoned his best friend
Oscar, Oscar, Oscar!"
* Felix and Oscar on Password
and so, so many others.
RIP Tony. You made millions and millions laugh. Thank you.
The Brooklyn Public Library is showing 1 copy at the Main Branch, which may or may not actually be there. I will find that out later this morning, as I'm interested in getting a look at the book. I didn't realize that the play came from an actual interview/study of homeless people back in the 1950's.
There are copies of the book available at Abe Books, which is a great source of used books.
http://abebooks.com
Strand Books in Manhattan is not showing it on their computer.
http://strandbooks.com
I checked the New York Public Library system and no copies of the book turn up there.
http://leopac.nypl.org/
He must have either worked on the new cars, or rides them a lot.
This is the first time I've heard a flesh-and-blood conductor say this phrase.
The C/R probably presses a button on the intercom panel when holding lights or red signals are delaying the train.
Bill "Newkirk"
American Pig: I at least hope he was understandable, like the automated announcement.
He had both.
Nice to let us know the E was running normal the past weekend (the R was not normal as we knew it.)
What she said is like saying, "x is equal to x," but I can understand why she said that.
Far Rockaway Branch Customers
LIRR train service on the Far Rockaway Branch is temporarily suspended in both directions between Far Rockaway and Valley Stream due to a track car derailment at Valley Stream.
Buse service is being provided between Far Rockaway and Valley Stream.
MTA Long Island Rail Road
Service Alert
Wednesday, May 19, 2004 12:50 PM
Far Rockaway Branch Customers
LIRR train service on the Far Rockaway Branch is temporarily suspended in both directions between Far Rockaway and Valley Stream due to a track car derailment at Valley Stream.
Buse service is being provided between Far Rockaway and Valley Stream.
Is it just a coincidence that the boxes are broken or is this a quiet test of how much faster buses would run if on-board fare collection was eliminated (a key BRT feature?)
By TASGOLA KARLA BRUNER
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 05/18/04
FBI officials said it posed no threat, but the discovery of a rocket launcher near MARTA train tracks in southwest Atlanta left commuters rattled Tuesday.
Johnny Carter, 41, and Cecil Duck, 42, friends and co-workers who were going home from the Hamilton E. Holmes station about 4:30 p.m. had been worried about Carter's wife. She would have been at the station about the time the rocket launcher was found, about 2 p.m.
The M136 AT4 light anti-tank weapon weighs 14.8 pounds, with a 40-inch launcher, including an 18-inch rocket, weighing four pounds. It is designed to penetrate 15.8 inches of armor at a maximum effective range of 985 feet, according to Web site GlobalSecurity.org.
"I was terrified. I knew we were safe, but she might be at the station," Duck said.
"The thought of her coming off the [MARTA] bus onto something like that and I can't get to her . . .," said Carter, not finishing his sentence.
MARTA employees who walk the tracks several times each day found the rocket launcher near the Holmes station, at the end of the west line, according to MARTA spokeswoman Kimberly Willis Green.
The station was allowed to remain open after officials determined that the device didn't pose a threat to the public.
Steve Lazarus, a spokesman for the FBI in Atlanta, said a "shell or tube" of an AT4 anti-tank rocket launcher was found with the sights broken off of it, which is what soldiers are taught to do after its single use, he said.
Lazarus said the device couldn't be fired because of its condition — it looked to have been sitting "out in weather for quite some time" — and because there was no ordnance in it.
"There's no threat associated with it," he said. "It's designed to be fired once and thrown away."
He said it's not uncommon for such shells to end up at gun shows and be sold to the public. They are legal to sell and possess, he said.
Mark
Batten down the cows, eh?
I usually tell them to light a match under it's nose.
What do you call a bull who swallows a handgranade?
A bomb in a bull.
What do you call it if the bomb explodes?
No bull.
Elias
A rabbi and a priest get into a car accident and it's a bad one. Both cars are totally demolished, but, amazingly, neither of the clerics is hurt.
After they crawl out of their cars, the rabbi sees the priest's collar and says, "So you're a priest. I'm a rabbi. Just look at our cars. There's nothing left, but we are unhurt. This must be a sign from God. God must have meant that we should meet and be friends and live together in peace the rest of our days."
The priest replies, "I agree with you completely. This must be a sign from God."
The rabbi continues, "And look at this. Here's another miracle. My car is completely demolished but this bottle of Mogen David wine didn't break. Surely God wants us to drink this wine and celebrate our good fortune." Then he hands the bottle to the priest.
The priest agrees, takes a few big swigs, and hands the bottle back to the rabbi. The rabbi takes the bottle, immediately puts the cap on, and hands it back to the priest. The priest asks, "Aren't you having any?"
The rabbi replies, "No...I think I'll wait for the police.
A) the thing was fired during a routine trespassing or fleeing the police call(standard issue police gear in the south).
B) This is sold instead of mace, and a woman fired this off for self-protection.
My guess is that he mistook you for some particular other person. Wood Green certainly isn't an especially dangerous area.
I noticed that people were very quiet on the Tube. Granted, you probably aren't going to see many people chatting with total strangers on any subway, but it seemed that people who were travelling together would refrain from talking with each other when on the Tube, something that won't happen in New York.
M2/M4/M6: Cosmopolitan cars. They have pentagrams as well as third rails. These cars are always found on Metro North's New Haven main line, but may also make a rare appearance on the Harlem and Hudson lines.
M2 - 8400 to 8662 (some missing numbers because 86XX are paired with 85XX - 86XX are bar cars starting with 8651).
M4 - 8700 to 88??
M6 - 8900 to 89?? (these are in triple car sets with two cars having pantographs -- the other series have two car units with one car having a pantograph)
M-2 (Budd/GE): 1971-73; "Cosmopolitan", on MN New Haven Divsion. In pairs. 8400-8800 series
M-3 (Budd): On MNR & LIRR. Built 1985-86. Similar to M-1, with sliding cab window and air vents in car.
M-4 (Tokyu Car/Kinki Sharyo): "Cosmopolitan", 1988. In triplet sets on New Haven divsion. 8900 series.
M-5: not built
M-6 (Morrison Knudsen): "Cosmopolitan", 1992-93. Triplets. 9000 series. New Haven division.
M-7 (Bombardier): 2002- First introduced on LIRR in 2002, new cars to replaced most M-1's. M-7A's on MNR will phase out ACMU's & M-1A's
M-8: next generation Cosmopolitans, due in 2012 to replace M-2's
LIRR M-1 (A and B cars - married pairs): 9001-9770
MNCR M-1 (A and B cars - married pairs): 8200-8377
LIRR M-3 (A and B cars - married pairs): 9771-9944
MNCR M-3 (A and B cars - married pairs): 8000-8141
MNCR M-4 (A and B cars): 8900-8935
MNCR M-4 (D cars): 8951-8985
MNCR M-6 (A and B cars): 9000-9031
MNCR M-6 (D cars): 9051-9081
LIRR M-7 (A and B cars - married pairs): 7001-7678(?)
MNCR M-7 (A and B cars - married pairs): 4000-4179
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
Jimmy
I sent this email to David Storm after reading his lies on this anti-rail board. I can't believe how the neo-cons are so brain washed to think that we can simply spend billions more on road construction each year to break the gridlock. In the article, David couldn't even come up with a logical reason why we should support his opinion. Here's his email address
dmstrom@taxpayersleague.org
David:
I've read your article (You can't build your way) and found your conclusion to be unpersuasive. I live in the New York Metro and each new highway resulted in more traffic than ever before. Furthermore, there is no way you can build another "Parkway" or "Expressway" in this part of the country because it's already overbuilt! Where do you think we can build another highway in Manhattan that would stop the gridlock? Downtown Los Angeles is already 65% road and parking. It's impossible to construct an expressway in that city without having to destroy billions in commercial and residential real estate. In other words, there is no way we can build out of construction because for the most part, there is no where else to build.
It's possible a new highway can be constructed in the middle of Idaho that would get rid of much of the traffic in that region but not in the north east or many parts of the country. We are spending hundreds of billions on road construction yet you think we should spend more because we are not investing enough. When is it going to be enough? The federal government along with cities and states are spending vast amounts of money on new construction each year but it never seems to be enough because we are putting thousands of new cars on the roads each year. Furthermore, the cost of maintaining, policing and cleaning old and new roads is skyrocketing out of control. You seem to misunderstand the nature of road construction in the first place. You build a highway to CREATE traffic otherwise it would be a waste of tax payers resources in constructing an expensive freeway that no one uses. A packed subway car is expected and good for it means the system is being used. The same holds true for an expressway.
I take mass transit and subways to work (New York City) and would never think of going to into Manhattan in an automobile. The cost of traveling and paying for parking alone into the city by motor car alone would pay for my rent. Don't get me wrong. I am anti-tax just as much as you are. I just want all my taxes to go to public transportation and not to expensive road construction.
Steve
Right on. I bet his response would be to argue the law(not theory) that roads don't bring traffic. And the other one would be your in NYC and nothing holds true for anyone else.
Ask him if he got the memo that said the per person transportation expenditure is a lot higher in every city with substandard transit than ones that have it.
Rail vs. road is not a neo-conservative issue. Labeling all anti-railers as neo-conservatives is unjustified, since I happen to be both pro rail and a stallwart neo-con.
Thanks.
2. Concourse Yard from D to 4 (from Bedford Park TO Bedford Park)
When you say 'FAQ' are you suggesting we look back through the archives ? I went back to Jan 03 and this post was the only one that came up.
Yes I found it ! -my apologies. Perhaps "See FAQ page on this site "would have clarified it for novices like myself. :-)
Is a 'Subtalk Etiquette' post appropriate to obviate further transgresses ?
When you say 'FAQ' are you suggesting we look back through the archives ? I went back to Jan 03 and this post was the only one that came up.
A one-track connection between the IRT #3 (New Lots Line) and the BMT "L" Canarsie line near the Junius St. Station, for Linden Yard access. There is no third rail on this connection. The yard is normally used for work trains powered by diesel locomotives.
(No photo available)
A diamond crossover on the upper level of Queensboro Plaza, between the N and the 7. This connection is the #7 line's sole connection to any other line in the system and is used for bringing #7 cars on and off the line for maintenance (or delivery of new cars).
Yard leads connect the Concourse Yard to the #4 line just north of Kingsbridge Road station and to the Concourse Subway just south of 205th Street.
Yard leads connect the 207th Street Yard to the #1 line north of 207th St station and to the 8th Avenue IND subway.
View of the IRT turnout from the Canarsie line:
View of same track from train on IRT level:
Here's the best shot I have of this track, taken last month:
I wish I had my digital camera last September when the D types actually went inside the Linden Shops (with the help of a diesel).
It's amazing to see how close the crossing is in relation to the end of the New Lots-bound platform.
And I was a bit surprised when one of these showed up.
Enjoy!
(1) 207th Street Yard (flyover from #1/9 Lines to yard)
(2) Linden Yards ('Y' connection between New Lots & Canarsie Lines).
(3) Queensboro Plaza (Diamond crossover just west of the station)
I was thinking of scenarios using New Lots but I did not know that there was no third rail.
I guess a #7 train would go down Broadway as Express, bypass Dekalb on the middle track and then change directions under Fourth Ave. (B'klyn). Is there a switch track around Pacific Street? Does it permit a train to change direction? If so, then the #7 would switch to the track that would take it over the bridge and through town on Sixth Ave. The train would take the Sixth Ave. Express and at 53rd Street go west to CPW. Then the train can go to Wash. Hts. or Grand Concourse to hook up with the IRT.
How often does this happen? When was the last time it happened?
1. Run express to Queensboro, wrong-railing over the crossover and the QBP station and crossing over north of the portal.
2. Run light to Times Square, reverse, run light to QBP, crossover, layup on G4 track at 39th Avenue, and run light into the tunnel.
Once in the tunnel, trains usually run to Coney Island (either via tunnel or bridge), then via the Culver line. It follows the D to north of 135th Street, where it either follows the A line to 207th Street Yard (Connection to the 1), or the D line to Concourse Yard (Connection to the 4).
The connections south of both Junius Street on the 3 and 4, and Livonia Avenue on the L, lead to Linden Yard, which is basically MOW-related service. There is also a rail connection within the yard to the LIRR.
-Broadway Buffer
You already have B-Division cars for the B-Division. Why use a lesser capacity Division-A train?
or any of the many cars used on the B Division on the A division?
Platform or tunnel clearances.
This doesn't mean you have cars that regularly traverse the system. You have Division-C (or Maintenance of Way) cars which do things like collect revenue, check track and help in GO-related work. Can't forget the MoD fantrips either.
Honestly ,Sir, I was only joking !
Does anyone know? TIA.
P.S.: I apologize for sounding like CDTA, but I just wanted to know how well my favorite line, the (4), ranks in terms of maintenance.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
"This is a Woodlawn-bound (4) train. The next and last stop is, Woodlawn. Stand clear of the closing doors please."
DING-DONG. Click.
Minutes later...
"This is Woodlawn."
"This is the last stop on this train. Everyone please leave the train, thank you for riding with MTA New York City Transit."
:-)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
David
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Concourse also deserves credit for keeping their R68/A's cleaner than Coney Island.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Broadway Buffer
[From the buffers of the Coney Is Yards]
Please don't say definitely because you'd definitely be wrong. Concourse yard isn't an IRT yard. Concourse Yard is an IND yard where a few IRT trains happen to lay up or get washed.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
David
-Broadway Buffer
-Chris
Regards,
Jimmy
til next time
But as far as the best SHOP, that award would of course go to Concourse. The award for the worst goes to Corona of course, and ENY as runner up (how do they NOT have a car wash by now??? Canarsie doesn't count as it's inaccessible 99% of the time between errant layups and trackwork). The J/Z should be extended to CI if for no other reason than to get the damn cars washed.
Hold on a sec. Now I'm not too knowledgeable about the Corona Yard, but if I'm not mistaken, I remember hearing something about how the 7 train was awarded best overall service cleanliness and stuff once. If the Corona Yard is where the 7 trains are kept, and they one an award for best all that stuff, how come you think so poorly of it?
Could you or someone clear this up for me?
West End LCL
And jea on the D, thats my train now. Too bad the W was more convenient... If the main reason for change was midtown, then they need a better one. Broadway and 6th Ave but stop at Herald Square and if that was a main reason, they should have kept the West End on Broadway since it's on a higher level and therefore has easier access to the street
To what subway car did the rollsign on the left belong to?
My guess is that it's an R30/A.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
My guess is that it's an R30/A.
Sorry, I mean an R30/A GOH'd.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
The rollsign that Bway Junction posted was first used by the R38s in 1988.
The R32s (Phase I only) used a smaller version (font size) of the R38 rollsign in 1988. Here's an example:
In 1989, the R30/30As (R27s were scrapped by now) and R32s (Phase II) received the R38 style rollsign. Here's a picture that I took on an R30 on the "C" back in 1993 just before retirement:
Hope this helps.
...
(A) 8 Avenue Local
(A) 8 Avenue Express
...
<C>8 Avenue Local
(D) Av of Americas (6 Av) Express
(E) 8 Avenue Local Queens Express
(F) Av of Americas Local Queens Local
(F) Av of Americas Local Queens Express
(G) Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown Local
(H) Rockaways Shuttle
(J) Nassau Street Local
(K) 8 Avenue Local
(L) 14 Street Canarsie Local
(M) Nassau Street Local
(M) Nassau Street Express
(N) Broadway Express
(N) Broadway Local
<N>Broadway Local
(Q) Broadway Express
(R) Broadway Local
<R> Nassau Street Local
(B) Ave. of Americas (6th Ave) local
Ave. of Americas (6th Ave) express
(J) Nassau St. express
(V) Ave. of Americas (6th Ave) local
(B) Ave. of Americas (6th Ave) local
(J) Nassau St. express
(V) Ave. of Americas (6th Ave) local
However, the purchase of the new side rollsigns for the IRT SMEE's were deemed useless because the R-14/15's were all retired from service a year earlier. I myself own two sets of each of these IRT rolls, as they were all sold off at one of the Transit Museum's garage sales several years ago.
As for the R-10's, I had only seen just a few of them on certain G.E.-equipped cars (such as #3317 as I recall). Again, another useless purchase because most R-10's still clinged to their older Hunter Illuminated Sign Company-made signs as much as possible. Oddly though, I had not seen any evidence if there was a contract for new side route signs for the R-10's and the R-14/15's in 1985.
In December 1988, a month after the graffitied R-10's were removed from service, the remaining 110 cars (the Green W.H. units) had brand new side signs installed again from Transign of Connecticut and Multiple Products of Canada. This time, the latest R-10 side (and front) roll signs only listed all the terminals of "A", "C", "D", "H" and Shuttle. Restored museum car #3184 still has all of these modern rolls in their boxes, as evidenced by any visitor to the Transit Museum right now in seeing the car.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
The northern side terminals only had Bedford Park Boulevard, Bronx; Euclid Avenue, Brooklyn; Broad Channel, Queens; 71st-Cont'l Avs-Forest Hills; and Queens Plaza, Queens. The southern side terminals just had Euclid Avenue, Brooklyn; Rockaway Park, Queens; Rockaways, Queens; and Smith-9th Sts, Brooklyn. The front destination terminal roll sign listed the eight above combined into one.
-William A. Padron
["Queens-Forest Hills"]
Nope, R-32 front route.
The R-16 and R-38 front route signs had a slightly smaller and more squared off font for the lettering. On the double letter signs, there was a slight wider space between the letters the R-32 sign didn't have. That's the way you tell them apart. otherwise, they had the same letter routes and colors.
Bill "Newkirk"
Okay, that would be an R-10 replacement. Letters are compacted and close, definitely not an R-32 sign. Not sure if that one appeared in the green R-10's or not.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
As for the sign on the left, I'd have to say it was a post-GOH R42 or a 1970s R40.
wayne
I was just wondering what happened to the Long Island railroad protototype push/pull bi-levels. Is there any chance they will return to service in the future?? Also I heard that they are not compatible with the current fleet. Is that true, and if so, is there any way they could be made compatible or what is the likeihood of that happening??
Thanks.
Bill "Newkirk"
Is how the railroad keeps the locations of bathrooms predictable, or is that just a lucky coincidence?
I saw 9001 fly by today, and no, it's NOT mated to 9002, contrary to the assertion someone made here a few days ago. I didn't catch the number of its partner, though.
It probably has to do with positioning the cars for the toilet dump.
The drainage hoses are spaced according to the distance between the married pairs.
Larry,RedbirdR33
1st W of the day S/B is the 0653 from Astoria, put-in from Lex-63rd lay-up. Also a put-in from Lex.-63rd lay-up is the 0803 W Astoria.
5 putins from City Hall are the 0703, 0713, 0723, 0733 and 0741 W's out of Astoria.
Coney Island yard provides 3, all three from CIYD makes all stops on the N line, going in service at 86th Street, are the 0625, 0643 and 0656 W's out of CIYD and 86th Street. These 3 W's are the first N/B's from Whitehall, between 0645 and 0725.
The Rock Shuttle doesn't go anywhere near 8th Avenue.
Gotta be a Gray (H) says me.
Elias
I'll make it grey.
It must be the resizing, I don't think my original pic was that hazy. The train almost looks fake.
I actually did very little resizing and no touching up of the photo. I took a 100 px slice out of the middle of it. I swipped two pictures from you, the other being much clearer, which is why I used this one, a very moody picture.
Thanks for the fine pictures, Keep up the good work! : )
Elias
According to the SAS FEIS, the MTA expects to continue to store trains in this area overnight after the full-length SAS is built. It's not clear how they'd manage this, but perhaps the idea is that only one track would be in service.
I had assumed they'd run late-nite Q trains up to 72nd St, so that Second Avenue riders would not completely lose their connection to Broadway. The 3rd track at 72nd St seems to be designed for this purpose.
Apples oranges. Cutting the L back would cut off ALL opportunities for x-fers, not running the Q to 72nd St. when the full length 2nd Ave line (T) is running merely restricts some, but not all x-fer options.
If the Q terminates at 72nd late nights, why would it run single track all the way up from 57th? It could use the same 2 tracks it uses in the daytime.
IIRC its somehere behind the station, and I cannot remmeber if there's room for 2 or 4 trains.
J
They must be a n00b panhandler, since they haven't mastered standing on an R142A without clinging to a pole.
Have you seen the clown?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Enjoy
Wonderful pic, thanks. A blast from my past.
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
-Adam
(fishbowl6v92ta@aol.com)
--Mark
I want to ride on an R16 soooo bad now ....
The only time I had seen an R16 during the late '70s and early '80s was in the museum. I thought that they were scrapped. All the times I had ridden the "J", I had never spotted an R16.
Eventhough I nearly died from the heat, I still enjoyed the trip.
At that time, the "J" trains moved fast over the el, unlike today. Especially between Eastern Parkway and Crescent St, due to the fact that ALL stations between those two were closed for rehabilitation.
Do you like the R42's as well?
Did someone mention my favorite current class of cars?
What's the location?
Grayson County Sheriff's Sgt. Pam McCurdy said that she didn't know how many people were injured, but knew some of the injuries were severe. A medical helicopter was dispatched.
Television footage showed emergency crews treating at least three people. At least one of the locomotives burned.
Joe Faust, a spokesman for Burlington Northern Santa Fe Corp., said both of the trains belonged to the company.
Neither Faust nor McCurdy knew what caused the accident.
McCurdy said one of the trains derailed after the head-on collision. Television footage showed about 20 cars off the tracks.
Gunter is 50 miles north of Dallas.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cell phone (Popular these days)
Drugs (Random testing got that excuse)
Crew asleep (Old standby)
Someone didn't stop where they should have (Duh)
Signal problems (So rare it's not worth speculating)
Terrorism (Uh, no. Grow up, media)
Dispatching error (BLE's a stronger union)
It's Texas (Here, hold my beer and watch this neat trick...)
(Not in any particular order)
DUH!
wayne.
(in this hyper-sensitive knee-jerk reactionist PC world, maybe a Ferecito-style "I Jus Kidding!" is necessary?)
Come to think of it, I don't think I ate anything that day.
That poster is not offensive, or politically incorrect. Someone forgot a E, lets not hang him/her at the stake. This isn't 1600 Salem Massachusetts anymore, so end the witch hunt. We no longer go hanging people who make mistakes.
Write the printer and ask them to fix it.
But 9/11 is not...there is no / button on a standard phone dial.
Nor is there an eleven.
Spelling errors are fine.
Hanging the flag incorrectly is disrespectful. Always has been. That shouldn't be overlooked becasue someone had the "intention". Especially since for days after news programs from day to day told people the proper way to hang the flag.
Your pal,
Fred
Da Hui
Da Hui
1)NYCT Car Type(s)
2)NYCT Bus Type(s)
3)NYCT Subway Route(s)
4)NYCT Line (ex: BMT B’dwy)
5)Railroad(LIRR, MNR)
6)Rail car(MTA)
7)NYCT(or private) Bus Route
My favorite are:
1)R40 slants, R46 and R143s
2)MCI Cruisers (SI Express busses)
3)2,6,L,Q,F,A and of course, the 7.
4)IND 6 Av, BMT Broadway, Canarsie, Flushing/Astoria, IRT Broadway/7 Av, Brighton & IND Queens Blvd.
5)MetroNorth
6)M7 and LIRR double-deckers
7)X1, S55 and S79.
-Chris
1: R142, R142A, R143.
2: New Flyer C40 LF, and dare I say Orion VII CNG.
3: The 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, E, F, G, and L.
4: IRT East Side, IRT West Side, IRT Pelham, IRT Woodlawn-Jerome, IRT Flushing, IRT White Plains, IRT Dyre Avenue, BMT Brighton, BMT Canarsie, and BMT Broadway/Jamaica (Brooklyn.)
5: LIRR
6: Acela Express, M7
7: B61, B63, B75, M14, M31, M72
-Robert McConnell, aka RJM
I also like the New Flyer articulateds, but the Staten Island Express busses are the best.
-Chris
2) NYCT Bus Types:
-Orion V
3) NYCT Subway Route(s):
-Favorite: F
-Close runner up: L
4) NYCT Subway Line(s):
-Overall: IND 63rd St. Line
-IND: Brooklyn/Queens Crosstown (G)
-IRT: Dyre Av. Line (5)
-BMT: Canarsie Line (L), and Culver Line (F)
5) Railroad:
-SEPTA Regional Rail System
-Close runner up: NJ Transit
6) Rail Car:
-SEPTA Adtranz M4 (MFL)
7) Bus Route:
-NYC: M1
-Philadelphia: 19
2.) GMC New Looks (with batwings) LOL
3.) 4, 5, Q
4.) Do I have to repeat my answer of my all time favorite line?
5.) LIRR
6.) M1-3
7.) Q53 and the great run from Rego Park to the Rockaways
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
BMT Bluebird
3)NYCT Subway Route(s)
M in the days following 9/11 (via Sea Beach)
4)NYCT Line (ex: BMT B’dwy)
Myrtle, Sea Beach
5)Railroad(LIRR, MNR)
MNRR just for GCT
1)Car Type(s)
NYC: All of them, why bother to discriminate? Whether a R32, a R62 or an R142, they're all the same to me. I just like the fact that they're there for the residents of New York to use, most cities aren't so lucky.
Philly: The Subway Surface K-cars, or if you're gonna be picky and exlude them because they're 'trolleys' then the BSS B-IV cars. I like the open feel of the cars, and the mixed longitudinal/transverse seating in a 67 foot car. They're kinda like a pre-R131 car for Philly.
Chicago: The 2200s, the Blinker doors on those cars just kick ass.
Los Angeles: The Siemen's P2000s, those are just nice cars, it's too bad they went all high platform on us.
Seattle: If you wanna include the Bredas, the purchased DE60LFs, or the Central Link rolling stock, then I suppose I'd prefer the DE60LFs, although those aren't really subway cars.
2) Bus Type(s)
NYC: Probably the D60HFs. I haven't ridden the O7 HEVs yet, but I disliked the O7 CNG I rode on the B68. I think it's too bad that the MTA squashed the D60LF for NYCTA, I would have liked to see them on the Manhattan routes.
Philly: Either the DE40LFs or the AMG trolleys. I'm eagerly awaiting SEPTA's proposed E40LF (or some equivilant thereof, be it a Neoplan, New Flyer, or NABI) trackless trolleys.
Chicago: Those F40LFs they had were really cool, too bad they didn't work out. Hopefully in the near future as fuel cell costs drop and modular hydrogen plants taking water off the city system come to be regular we'll see a return of their progeny.
LA: The D40LFs, they're not CNG, nuff said.
Seattle: The Breda Duo-Buses, I know everyone harps on them for being underpowered, overweight, and too complex, but they're practically the last thing I remember about Seattle. Admittedly it's a pretty stupid idea to put a 6V-92 in a artic, especially one which carries around an extra electric motor and trolley poles, but it was a good idea. These days with the hybrid electric transmissions it'd be much simpler, you could do dual-mode diesel/electric with a single powered wheel, not one electric and one diesel as the Bredas did.
3)Subway Route(s)
NYC: Probably the 5 train (even though I have yet to ride the Dyre Line), maybe the F train too.
Philly: The 13, 36, or 101 trolleys, the 13 has a very interesting route, but the 36 has the depot off it, and the 101 is just cool.
Chicago: N/A (despite living 40 miles from the city for 4 years, I never rode the CTA El)
Los Angeles: The Red Line
Seattle: N/A.
4)Line
NYC: Either the Lex or the 63rd St tube, I gotta say I like Roosevelt Island station.
Philly: Either the Norristown High Speed Line or the
CTA: I like the idea of the Purple line, I like how it runs through the Northside suburbs like a semi-commuter train.
LA: I hardly remember the Red Line, but there's really only one I rode, so I guess that's it.
Seattle: The Green Line monorail, whenever that gets off the ground. I'm rooting for the Cascadia Monorail Consortium (I think that's the name) which features Hitachi as the primary system contractor. This group is bidding against the Bombardier-led Team Monorail, which would just stick another Dizzyland Carbon Copy monorail in and call it done. Hitachi has real experience with large monorails in japan, and also holds the patents on Alweg's original systems, something BBD lacks. This is the kind of project that could prove seminal to the city, like the creation of the first Els in NYC, they can be branched off to serve other areas
5)Railroad
BNSF, the beauty of their water-level running north of Seattle between Shoreline and Everett along Puget Sound is unsurpassed.
6)Rail car
Probably the Cosmopolitan series, I always kinda wished that a version of the M4 could have been made with traps, and sans the 3rd rail shoes for use by NJT and SEPTA in place of the Arrow III and Silverliner IV.
7)Bus Route
NYC: I liked the M35 the time I rode it, Randell Island provides an excellent vantage point to see the sheer enormity of the Hell Gate bridge, right next to the blight that is Moses's Triboro.
Philly: Can't says I've ever seriously liked one bus over another here. The 38 is nice, as are the 9 and the 27. I like all the ETB routes, but that's mostly just because they represent actual investment in the infrastructure, something all too rare these days (mind you the investment was made 50 years ago and is now squandered by the idiots at 1234 Market St, but still...)
CTA: I liked the 146 when I rode it last October.
LA: I guess whatever Santa Clarita Transit bus ran up Seco Blvd in 1993.
Seattle: I like the 2, I like the idea of riding a ETB to near lake Washington.
Sorry, my bad. I posted this late at night and I forgot to put that. I have nothing against other systems, but feel free to put whatever you like.
-Chris
Subway Cars:
R-33 Mainlines, R-36WF/ML, R-62, R-32/38's, R-46's and the R-142/R-143
Transit Buses:
Grumman Flxible, All model years RTS, The Orion V and New Flyer D60HF. I like real buses! Low floors suck!
Subway Routes:
2,5,7,A and E Lines I like the busy ones!
Subway Line(s):
The Red Lion The good old #2 7th Avenue Express and #5 Lexington Avenue Express.
MTA Rail Road:
Metro North
Rail Car(s):
The new M-7s, M1-3 and the M2-thru 6
NYCT Bus Routes:
BX12 and BX31
Dave
Nope!
That change is permanent (well as permanent as any change) and has nothing to do with the construction at Stillwell.
It has to do with the scheduling of trains.
The (Q) is a 24/7 service running local on the Brighton
The (D) is a 24/7 service running local on the West End.
The (B) is a 16/5 service running express on the Brighton.
Now WHY would you want TWO 24/7 services on the Brighton?
Now go and look at the NORTH END...
The (D) is a 24/7 service on the Grand Concourse.
The (B) is a 16/5 service on the Grand Concourse.
Why would you want (or need) two 24/7 services on the Concourse.
Or if the (B) would be 24/7 in Brooklyn, where would it's north terminal be if it did not go to the concourse?
The last time the (B) short turned at 57th St / 6th Ave... but this cannot be done anymore since the (F) is serving that station with a trough service.
Sure, many other things *could* have been done, but this is what they did do. You cannot make one little change on the subway system. Every change has reprecutions system wide.
Elias
Continental maybe? (j/k)
To be honest I'm not entirely sure how the B ended up being 16/5 in Manhattan in the first place...it used to be 18/7, and at nights a shuttle from 36 to CI. I think it has something to do with planned rehab(s) on the Central Park West Line that don't allow it to run in Manhattan.
1991: C ran 7 days a week to/from 145/BPB, B weekdays to 145/BPB, evenings and weekends to 21st/QB
1998: swapped with B northern terminal and ran to 168th St all times, except nights as we know it.
1999-2000: B ran 7 days a week to 145 (BPB on rush hours) because 21st st/QB was having long term G.O. using shuttle train every 20 minutes.
2001: Bridge swap, B ran weekdays only to 10:30 PM between 34/6 and uptown.
That's all I know offhand, please don't get me with the wrong year if I'm a bit off. Thank you and hope this clears up some questions.
At the moment yes. So what is wrong with saying:
"The (Q) is a 24/7 service running local on the Brighton
The (B) is a 24/7 service running local on the West End.
The (D) is a 16/5 service running express on the Brighton."
?
Run the D to 145th and the B to Bronx. What is wrong with that?
"The (Q) is a 24/7 service running local on the Brighton
The (B) is a 24/7 service running local on the West End.
The (D) is a 16/5 service running express on the Brighton."
?
Run the D to 145th and the B to Bronx. What is wrong with that?
Nothing. You've switched the names of the B and the D but changed nothing. However, NYCT doesn't change the names of trains for no reason.
The B cannot go back to the West End because there will be no Brighton Express serive.
No, the D can't go back to the Brighton line since that would mean the Q would have to be a part time line, and then the bridge would go back to its original problem of having too much service on one side of the Bridge, and then a rebuild would be needed again.
Now here's my SEPTA report:
After taking care of my medical needs, I spent the afternoon all over the SEPTA system. I rode 13 trains and ONE bus [so you guys won't get so spazzy about my mention of the vehicle]. So here how it starts:
11:48 am - PATCO 227 - Got on before the rain started. Lindenwold to 8th/Market.
12:50 pm - After lunch and getting my DayPass, I hopped on the MFSE at 8th and rode to 13th. Car 1102 looked like most of the MFSE cars [crappy], and when I got to 13th, went downstairs and noticed that SEPTA was doing work at the station. Does anyone know what's going on down there?
12:56 - 11 - car 9009 - 13th st to Darby Loop - One thing I have noticed, some young women should not be wearing low-rider jeans, particularly those women with butts like Missy Elliott. I saw WAYY too much crack for my taste. Basically, she had too much ass, and too little jean covering that ass.
1:45 - 114 - NABI 5371 - Rode the only BUS on this trip [Now don't y'all go apecrap on me for riding this. It was the only way to get to the 102.] By the time I got to Darby, it was pouring. Rode fron Darby to Sharon Hill.
2:00 - 102 - 127/101 - I wonder why a 2 car train was on the line. My question was answered when the trolley reached Lansdowne Ave, and all of the Bonner/Prendergast kids got on. Sharon Hill to 69 St.
2:35 - 100 - car 134 - 69 St to Norristown - As the car went on its way to Norristown, I mentally compared Sharon Hill, Norristown, and RiverLINE. I noticed how SEPTA gets away with unprotected crossings while the RiverLINE has every intersections with crossing. Of course, the trolley-only ROW vs. a shared LRT/Freight ROW has somewhat no comparison, particularly with FRA rules overseeing the RiverLINE. Now, the ideal ROW that could make the RiverLINE work better is the ROW like the Norristown Line, completely grade-separated.
3:25 - 100 - car 141 and an unidentified mate - Uneventful trip back to 69 ST, on a train that went express south of Bryn Mawr.
3:55 - MFSE - car 1098 - Another ride on a crappy looking MFSE car. Got a surprise at 15th st, a couple of dudes got on followed by a cameraman and a sound guy. They went to the seat I vacated, and then it hit me, I STUMBLED ONTO A FILMING OF THE "REAL WORLD - PHILADELPHIA"! It looks like I have to see it when MTV puts it on. Rode from 69th to 8th St.
4:20 - Broad Ridge Spur - car 671 - Quick trip to Olney Ave. [Emphasis on quick.] Got off at Olney, went to a meat store to get some meat[because I forgot to put something out of the freezer] and hopped back on the Broad St Line.
4:45 - Broad St Express - car 528 - One thing you can say about SEPTA's express trains on the BSS, when they say EXPRESS, they MEAN EXPRESS! We hit 60 on one stretch, those Kawasaki cars can really fly! Now why can't NYC subways go that fast [Particularly the wimped-out A express under Fulton St.]? Speaking of NYC, we got a NYC-style train race out of Erie Station, when the BSS Express and BSS local left at the same time. That's the one thing I have always loved about subway riding in NYC, particularly when the trains go up or down in the tunnels, the only spots in Philly are the Fairmount Station, and just past 30th st where the MFSE and the Subway Surface separate.
5:04 pm - PATCO 294 - After checking out the progress of the Walnut-Locust rehab, I got on the PATCO line from 12/13th to Broadway. Missed the RiverLINE by 2 minutes, so I had to wait for the 5:41.
5:41 pm - RiverLINE 3516 and mate. - I think this is the busiest trip on the line, usually both cars are well filled up. Everybody getting out of Philly at 5 PM, walking to and riding the PATCO line and they all converge at this trip. This was my shortest RL trip, I rode one stop to 36th ST.
5:56 pm - RiverLINE 3519 and mate. 3519 was one of the wrapped cars. Rode it back to Broadway/WRTC.
6:10 pm - Final train of the day, PATCO 227 from Broadway to Collingswood.
Observations:
SEPTA needs to do something about the increasingly crappy-looking MFSE cars. They really are not holding up well under the heavy use/abuse they get. On the other hand, the Kawasaki cars have never looked better after 23 years in service. now if they only dump the mostly white paint scheme, then things would be much better.
If it wasn't raining, I would have taken more buses. I had to stay under some protection at rail stations instead of getting soaked waiting for buses.
I hope you Subtalkers would really put down your biases and not dis the bus. I like cars despite the fact that they are the greatest evils in the world, I like to look at one, not particularly own and operate one [too much of a financial drain]. If I can tolerate cars, then you guys can tolerate buses since they are an important part of Mass Transit.
Tommorrow, go to Bus Talk and check out my DART about Wilmington, then this weekend for my WMATA marathon.
Amen!
The biggest thing they can do to make the Market-Frankford cars look better is REPLACE THOSE SEATS! They started to look grungy pretty soon after the cars entered service in January 1999. They could use seats like the kind in some of the latest New Flyer buses SEPTA's running, but I'd be happy with blue hard plastic seats like the have in the subway-surface trolleys. Just anything that holds up and is easy to clean. I think just that change would make a world of difference.
Then if they could only get riders to stop leaving chicken bones on the floor...
As for the subway-surface trolleys, the current all-white scheme just doesn't work. They look like SEPTA ran out of money and had to cut paint from the budget. I know they changed from the orange-and-blue stripe to reflect the new look of the SEPTA buses, but there are better ways to do that. Here's what I'd do: I'd take the coloration of that red-fading-to-blue "headband" and extend it downward so it covers the whole vehicle. The nose of the car would be red, and the tail blue, if you can picture that.
Mark
All I can say is thank god the N-5s are in their original scheme and haven't been touched. I can't imagine how that would turn out...
Whole vehicle fade may not look as good as you may think it would. Just look at that picture of a Volvo NJT bus in that scheme.
There just should be some way to make an entirely new LRV scheme - maybe one to match the PCC IIs. Why make an LRV a bus when buses are hated by the general public, yet everyone loves a trolley.
SEPTA is likely installing an elevator to allow passengers wheelchair access to the Subway-Surface platfom - they did the same at 30th Street when the elevator to the MFL platfmorm and surface-to-mezzanine elevators were installed. Problem is, Subway-Surface trolleys are NOT wheelchair accessible.
4:20 - Broad Ridge Spur - car 671 - Quick trip to Olney Ave. [Emphasis on quick.] Got off at Olney, went to a meat store to get some meat[because I forgot to put something out of the freezer] and hopped back on the Broad St Line.
Hehe, 4:20... funny. Jokes aside, I am glad you made it to the Spur. To this day, though, I wonder why when SEPTA reinstated Express Ridge runs in 1997 did they not decide to turn back the EXPRESS at Olney and the RIDGE at Fern Rock, but my only guess is that getting the Express trains to the yard at the end of service would be hard to do.
Kellman arrested Reese, and Nassau police officers took him into custody in Bethpage. Reese is facing charges of rape and committing a criminal sexual act.
The victim was taken to Nassau University Medical Center for evaluation. Police say Reese was also traveling with the victim's 3-year-old brother. Both children have been released to their mother.
-----
Mark
There's one guy who won't be messing with the kids at the playground for a while...
Think Bruce Cutler.
'National security threat' just taking photos of metro
Charges racial profiling. McGill student was conducting research for urban planning professors
Anne Sutherland; Rene Bruemmer Of The Gazette Contributed To This Report
The Gazette
Wednesday, May 19, 2004
"They kept asking me where I was from ... where my parents were from," student Shanake Seneviratne, 20, said of his arrest.
CREDIT: PIERRE OBENDRAUF, GAZETTE
A McGill University student claims he was the victim of racial profiling when he was arrested while taking pictures at a metro station on Sunday.
Shanake Seneviratne, 20, was photographing buses and metro cars at the Sauve station that afternoon when he was stopped by transit cops and charged with impeding the flow of traffic inside a station.
"There was no one in the corridor and I only weigh 160 pounds, so how could I be blocking traffic?" Seneviratne said.
Seneviratne does research on public transportation for three urban planning professors at McGill. That, he said, is what he was doing.
He was taken to a room in the station, where the two Montreal Transit Corp. officers quizzed him and wrote him up a warning ticket for the infraction.
Then in walked Montreal police.
Seneviratne was handcuffed, placed in a cruiser, read his rights and was told he was "a threat to national security" as he was taken to the police department's northern operations centre.
There, he was fingerprinted, photographed, searched, placed in a holding cell and interrogated by Montreal police officers and a plainclothes RCMP officer.
After six hours, he was told he was free to go.
Seneviratne contends his dark skin caused him to be mistaken for a terrorist, although that precise word was never mentioned.
"This is discrimination, racism at the very least," he said.
"They kept asking me where I was from and I told them I was born in Canada. They kept asking where my parents were from, was I associated with any groups at McGill and what was I doing taking pictures in the metro, that this was against the law," said Seneviratne, who is of Sri Lankan descent.
Seneviratne is demanding a written apology from the transit corporation, Montreal police and the Mounties.
"I have no idea why all this harassment was made against me, other than (it was) racially motivated due to the fact that I belong to a visible minority."
The Montreal Transit Corp. did not return calls for comment.
However, the zealousness of the police officers might have resulted from a letter delivered to a police station Thursday that threatening an act of violence in the metro.
Montreal police played down the significance of the letter yesterday, saying it was just one of many notes and tips they receive frequently. The contents of the letter are under investigation and could not be divulged, Constable Steve Morrisette said. "But there is nothing that has led us to believe there is any imminent threat in our territory."
Police are increasing foot patrols in metro stations, especially during rush hours, as part of a plan instituted in February. But they acknowledged that current events have played a part in the decision to patrol stations.
asutherland@thegazette.canwest.com
© The Gazette (Montreal) 2004
Well, it makes me feel a little better that the good old USA isn't the only country being run by Nazis...
On the other hand, it makes me feel worse that the good old USA isn't the only country being run by Nazis...
On the third hand, I should buy stock in Depends Undergarments :)
Thesere the addresses:
http://ebar387.tripod.com/Subtalk/nassau.txt
http://ebar387.tripod.com/Subtalk/nassau2.txt
The MBTA has tried to back out before each time the DEP has told them they have to do it but they are trying to get out of it again. Some sort of BRT would not be bad idea if it could provide a one seat ride into downtown but it can't
They make no allegations that the contractor is discriminating against minorities but are complaining that a racial make u of the work force does not represent the of the community that is located in. can residents of Foxborough complain that the Patriots players have a different racial make up than the town also?
Martin Luther King dreamed of a day where people would be judged not by the content of their skin, but by the content of their character.
Yet many who claim to take up MLK's mantle and cause are often the first people to pass judgments based on the color of people's skin.
Hypocrisy?
*prepares to be flamed*
'"There's no legal authority for anyone, including government, to prohibit photography of just about anything in public view," said Bert P. Krages, an attorney from Portland, Ore., who specializes in photographer's rights.'
There is nothing wrong with ensuring that our infrastructure and our nation is safe - that *WAS* the job of the CIA, the FBI and INS. On September 11, 2001 they failed miserably on a basis of interagency nonsense, but most of all CHRONIC underfunding by Newt Gingrich's continuing "Contract ON America" republican congress - TAX CUTS instead of cops. On September 11th, this nation PAID the price. It's TIME for it to end. :(
I have no problem with law enforcement watching those who don't belong, who have potential malintent or to question those who TRESPASS where they don't belong. I have a BIG problem though with the rights of law abiding citizens to enjoy the freedome that this country is all about. The TERRORISTS wanted to destroy our economy, turn us all on one another, and to erode our freedoms until we lived in a police state as they envision "Palestinian life" ... well, it's HERE. And none of the underlying causes of this have been solved - we STILL have republicans giving tax cuts to those who don't NEED it, and homeland security once again to those who don't NEED it, shortchanging New York and Washington DC ("PROVEN targets") while feeding at the trough. ENOUGH!
While I'm not a rail photographer myself, this dog won't hunt anymore. It's NONSENSE ... and NOW it's spreading to Canada. :(
Know thy enemy, know thyself ...
http://www.hereinreality.com/familyvalues.html
There was in interesting story in the Montreal Gazette yesterday. Apparantly you need to be in an Urban Planning/Affairs program at university to photograph the STCUM.
-Robert King
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http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm is a website by a Oregon Lawyer discribing rights as a Photographer. it also has a legal DO and DO not's
The Photographer's Right - A Downloadable Flyer
Your Rights When Stopped or Confronted for Photography
The right to take photographs is now under assault more than ever. People are being stopped, harassed, and even intimidated into handing over their personal property simply because they were taking photographs of subjects that made other people uncomfortable. Recent examples include photographing industrial plants, bridges, and vessels at sea. For the most part, attempts to restrict photography are based on misguided fears about the supposed dangers that unrestricted photography presents to society.
Ironically, unrestricted photography by private citizens has played an integral role in protecting the freedom, security, and well being of all Americans. Photography in the United States has contributed to improvements in civil rights, curbed abusive child labor practices, and provided information important to investigating crimes. These images have not always been pretty and often have offended the sensibilities of governmental and commercial interests who had vested interests in a status quo that was adverse to the majority in our country.
Photography has not contributed to a decline in public safety or economic vitality in the United States. When people think back to the acts of terrorism that have occurred over the last forty years, none have depended on or even involved photography. Restrictions on photography would have not prevented any of these acts. Similarly, some corporations have a history of abusing the rights of photographers under the guise of protecting their trade secrets. These claims are almost always bogus since entities are required to keep trade secrets from public view if they want to protect them. Trade secret laws do not give anyone the right to persecute photographers.
The Photographer's Right is a downloadable guide that is loosely based on the ACLU's Bust Card and the Know Your Rights flyer. It may be downloaded and printed out using Adobe Acrobat Reader. You may make copies and carry them your wallet, pocket or camera bag to give you quick access to your rights and obligations concerning confrontations over photography. You may distribute the guide to others provided that such distribution is not done for commercial gain and credit is given to the author.
http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf
As I said before, a lawyer's opinion is just that - his opinion.
Unless a Judge agrees with it and makes it part of local law or public policy no government agency or low enforcement is going to pay any attention to it.
Even it if it is part of local law/public policy (for example the MTA Rules and Regulations) getting the cop on the beat (who usually has his/her own interpretation) to follow it as it is written can be very difficult.
Until all those Civil Libertarians stop maqking statements only in the newspapers and decided to make a federal case out of it, the buses of photographers will continue.
Even if one of us brought a high-profile civil case before the courts and won, who's to say the average beat cop (who's got supervisors breathing down his neck with national security crap) is going to care? Sure, whatever charges are brought (in most cases, after detainment, harassment and interrogation, no charges are brought because the concerns turn out to be unfounded) might be dropped in the end, but that doesn't stop the cop from harassing you. He doesn't give a damn who brought what suit where and what some judge decided, only doing what he/she sees is appropriate in the name of "national security."
What needs to be addressed is the paranoia, and the general feeling in this country (and Canada and a number of others) that individual rights are simply something to be ceded in favor of "security."
Once that got aired on the 11:00 news then you would see some action.
The bottom line is most people, and by "most people" I mean the 99.9 % of people who don't post on SubTALK and couldn't tell the difference between a Standard and a Redbird if it ran them over, don't give a damn about some nerds' (face it, that's what we are in the eyes of those 99.9%) right to take pictures of crappy trains and dingy stations. By the time "most people" become alerted to what is going on, it will be too late.
When they went after the planespotters, I didn't say a thing - I was not a planespotter. When they went after the railfans, I didn't say a thing - I was not a railfan. When they went after the _____, I didn't say a thing - I was not a _____. By the time they went after me there was nobody left to say a thing.
Me: Did you hear that a guy who was taking pictures of trains got detained by police last week? I mean, that's outrageous! Isn't this supposed to be a free country, where we're free to live and do as we please - within reasonable limits of law, of course - ?
Sheep: Well, he must have been doing something wrong to get stopped by the cops.
Me: He wasn't trespassing. He wasn't blocking traffic. He wasn't interfering with service. He wasn't a fare beater or anything like that - he was detained for simply taking pictures of trains, standing in a publically accessible part of the station, taking photographs of what can easily be seen by any fare-paying customer. He was detained because he was taking photographs, no other reason - the cop himself told him that.
Sheep: Well, was he arrested?
Me: No, but he was detained and questioned at length, after which he managed to avoid being arrested, although he could quite easily have been, if for example he didn't consent to being detained and questioned, they simply would have arrested him and interrogated him at the station.
Sheep: Well, he could have gotten a lawyer.
Me: Yeah, but do you have any idea how much it costs to get a lawyer? And the time you spend waiting for the lawyer, and the court hearings afterward, taking time off of work to go to them, which might be in some courthouse that's not easy to get to, etc.
Sheep: Did they confiscate the camera or issue a ticket?
Me: No, but he managed to reach a settlement by which he deleted the photographs he took and was permitted to leave on his own recognisance with his camera intact.
Sheep: Then no harm done, huh? He wasn't arrested, didn't need a lawyer, didn't have his camera confiscated, wasn't issued a ticket, and was allowed to go his own way afterwards.
Me: Yes, much harm was done. He was detained, questioned and harassed, and yes, the pictures are his property, even if not a tangible item to be confiscated (why else would the RIAA go after mp3 downloaders?) How would you feel if this happened to you? What if you were on the way to meet someone, or on the way to work, and you were detained for several hours?
Sheep: Well, he could be a terrorist, since he was behaving suspiciously, as the officer said.
Me: Define "suspicious," and besides, get serious - do you really think he's a terrorist and should be treated as such? For what it's worth, *you* could be mistaken for a terrorist if you did something that appeared to be "suspicious." Forget about that doctor's appointment you were supposed to go to, or those tickets to The Producers, or that reservation at Peter Luger's, and your mom will sure as hell want to know why you didn't show up to visit when you promised you would.
Sheep: Well, he could be a terrorist, and you can't prove otherwise...
Me: Come on, what is there, like a 0.000000001 % chance he could be a terrorist?
Sheep: AHA! So you're admitting he *could* have been a terrorist!
Usually around then the conversation breaks down...
Ya just GOTTA love the Ginrgrich/Shrub party for being the HYPOCRITES that they are. And here they are, passing moral judgements on OTHERS whilst laying in the fetal position like Jim Bakker. :)
Who needs to think of HITLER when you've got skull and bones? KERRY TOO. He's ALSO one of them. I'd vote for Nader if it mattered, but for now, I'm writing in John McCain - about as CLOSE to an AMERICAN as we're going to get. After all, Barry Goldwater's DEAD. :(
As before, get the scoop ...
http://www.hereinreality.com/familyvalues.html
FIRST link is FOX NEWS ... "fair and balanced," or else it wouldn't STILL be on their site. :)
You know the difference between crazy people and eccentric people, right? The eccentric people have money, the crazy ones don't. Same difference between a lowlife drug addict and someone who's "in therapy at Betty Ford."
I want to see who the libertarians will run, otherwise John Kerry. Hey - if you want to tie the hands of government, no better way than to make sure that the executive and legislative branches are in different hands. You can't think of the Democrats as the tax-and-spend-liberal-tree-hugging-taking-away-your-rights-big-government party and the Republicans as the obverse - truth is, both parties, when in unanimous control of the government, will almost always expand government and its intrusion into private life and become generally obnoxious pains in the asses (even more so than usual).
In any event, New York is not going to matter since it's a shoo-in for Kerry. For that reason, neither candidate is going to campaign very much in New York (thank God in heaven for that!) 90% of the campaigning will occur in Florida, Ohio, California, Pennsylvania, and a few other "swing" states - 90 % of campaigning directed at less than 20 % of the nation's population. All of this because presidential elections, for some asinine reason, are split up by state, in a system that was designed to prevent a candidate with solely regional appeal from winning an election, and to ensure that candidates campaign in all states. But in fact it has done precisely the opposite, focusing all attention on small number of select states, and permitting third party candidates with strong regional appeal to make strong electoral showings, whilst candidates with broad (though below 50 %) support nationwide to garner precisely zero electoral votes. What we need is a direct popular election, with a runoff in case no candidate garners more than 50 % of the total vote (to prevent fractionation of the moderate vote among many moderate candidates permitting an extremist candidate to win with a thin plurality of votes).
I'll save the rest for PolTalk :)
On the other hand, having a Republican Congress and a Democratic President creates partisan gridlock, so they're less likely to do stupid things, just so they can spite each other by not supporting each others' stupid things.
As I said before, a lawyer's opinion is just that - his opinion.
Unless a Judge agrees with it and makes it part of local law or public policy no government agency or low enforcement is going to pay any attention to it.
Once again: there is at present no law, anywhere in this country, prohibiting photography of anything from a public location. No judge or lawmaker necessary.
There was a huge amount of email and message board activity about this subject over incidents that occurred about a month ago. I haven't heard of similar incidents happening over the last two weeks. Perhaps the publicity has already had an effect. There have been many phone calls, emails, and letters to NJT customer service and executive offices during this time.
Now the newspaper articles are coming out. Similar articles are in progress at the Burlington County Times and Camden Courier-Post, generated by complaints from people photographing the River LINE and the Atlantic City line.
Good, the more articles the better.
Me thinks it is about time (says he from North Dakota) for a SubTalk Outing to New Jersey... About 20 strong... all with cameras (and one or two NJ lawyers in the group as well) to go out taking photos.
You have to choose your location well, something with both a vaild railfan photographic interest AND a judge who is likely to be sympathetic to the cause.
Go out and take the pictures, accept the arrests, and then you have case to bring before the judge.
Elias
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/20/nyregion/20rape.html
Good work by a railroad cop...what a way to start your day...
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On another note: Is the Stillwell Av station reopening still on for this weekend?
The 100-foot long tunnel is expected to cost over $3 million.
Eileen Stillwell article in Courier-Post
It still mistifies me why the two factories on the site (and UPS up the road) have not made better use of the rail line for deliveries.
And yes, you are correct, on how the headway is run by the Chief Inspector at Gov Ctr with radio notification from the Inspector at Maverick, who can see the board. The Board, by the way shows the line and locations of trains from Orient Heights all the way in to Bowdoin. Generally, the Inspector at Maverick will notify the Cheif when the is a gap in the headway in the Maverick area. He will also tell him where the next few trains are. The Cheif then holds or expresses trains, as he sees fit, based on the crowds at Gov Ctr and from radio reports from the Inspectors at State and Aquarium.
The Dispatcher (OCC in T-ese) handles any signal related problems in the downtown area and headway problems on the rest of the line. It is a pretty unique way to run a line, but most effective as the person most in control has the most information to make effective decisions.
Good pictures, and nice analysis. On your top image, see the staircase on the left? That is the ONLY staircase for both UP and DOWN access to/from the Green Line and Boston's North Station - both inbound and outbound. As you can imagine, during rush hours it is a disater waiting to happen. I have seen people fall down these stairs. Then add in an event at the Fleet Center (Bruins, Celtics, rock concert, WWF, circus, etc.) and it's a hopeless situation.
The new underground superstation can't come fast enough.
Your pal,
Fred
In today's print edition of the NY Pissed (I didn't see it online) they state:
"Free in Monday's Post
Hey Straphangers! The new subway maps are coming out and you can get your free wallet-sized copy exclusively in THe Post on mOnday.
The new map includes the Stillwell Avenue Terminal changes - and a special collectible reprint of the first proposed subway system on the back.
500 lucky Post readers will also win a special hidden Metrocard with up to $70 worth of free rides!!
It's all in Monday's Post.
Don't miss it."
The are 2 pictures in the ad - one of a subway map but too small to read and a the Z-fold type map (folded) with the MetroCard cover.
HOT DEAL!!! Buy up tons of papers and then ebay the maps.
I imagine this is part of the ESA program. Anyone know?
Not true. The roadheader boring project has been awarded, and the main Manhattan tunnel is up for bid.
Look at MTA's website and read the procurement pages.
The project having been awarded does not mean that construction is underway -- especially along the LIRR ROW, which is what was being discussed.
Ron doesn't make that distinction. A year ago he was saying that the tunnel boring machines were drilling underneath 63rd St even as we spoke, because some prior published MTA schedule had said that the contract was to have been awarded by that date.
There is no ESA work going on in Sunnyside Yard or in Harold Interlocking at this time. The next contracts are in Manhattan and the former Yard A.
What "significant" stations or features would you recommend for a visitor to see?
Here are a few of my suggestions:
34th St & Broadway (N/R/W) - music machine
14th St & 8th Ave (A/C/E) - sculptures
81st St & CPW (B/C) - museum mosaics
Astor Place & Lafayette (6) - "old-style" station, with K-Mart entrance to boot
Grand Central (Metro North) - everthing!
Harlem-125th St/Park Av (Metro North) - "country" RR station in the heart of the city
Brooklyn Borough Hall (4/5) - great space and restoration
Union Square (N/R/W) - impromptu September 11 memorials in the concourse
For everyone else, I'd recommend the gorgeous concrete and steel monstrosities like Smith-9th, Queensboro Plaza and Broadway Junction.
And, if you're heart aches from the passing of Joey Ramone or Sid Vicious, the 7 Grand Central platform.
Your pal,
Fred
Smith-9sts-The view.
CI/Stillwell Av-NATHANS!
Roosevelt Island-Nice and open, plus good view on surface & TRAM.
125 St (on the (1)(9))-AWSOME Viaduct on B'way
Queensboro Plaza-Simply incredible.
Some others too, but I cant think of them now.
-Chris
Howard Beach/JFK - Far Rockaway & Rockaway Park "A"s ONLY
All underground station of the "L" east of Union Square.
Lexington/63rd St, Roosevelt Island, 21st St/Queensbridge - "F"
Jamaica/Van Wyck - "E"
Sutphin & Parsons/Archer - "E", "J", "Z"
shh I think he meant flowers? :-)
poot
-Chris
MTA New York City Transit
Service Alert
Posted on:5/20/04 12:49:20 PM
Due to a sick customer at 72nd Street, Manhattan-bound service is express from 72nd Street to 34th Street until futher notice.
-Chris
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Cool, maybe I can contact this guys office and get some sort of grunt job workingto improve Amtrak's information and network security.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05172004.shtml#From
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Hopefully these bills won't go anywhere. When I hear "rail security" I know all it means is "Railfan Harrassment".
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05172004.shtml#House
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I am assuming that older locomotives and other equipment will be grandfathered in some way.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05172004.shtml#Railroad
Last I heard, GM and GE are meeting it via changes to engine timming, i.e., they're doing the 1/2 assed band aid approaches that the auto makers did in the 60's and 70's. Wait until they have to go to EGR, particulate traps, and catalysts like just about everything else that's diesel out there has had for a while now....
Grandfathering should be interesting, and even more interesting will be when/if they start requiring regular emissions testing on units.
Of course, the flip side is this might shift the cost point of diesel up enough to make mainline electrics look attractive again (though oil prices are doing it already - I'm sure whomever owns the ex Milwaukee lines really feels great about the wires being gone now!) Being insulated from volitale oil prices is a good thing.
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It's about time, that whole like was looking like a tip. Maybe they'll repaint some signals/towers.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05172004.shtml#Amtrak
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Nice job coattailing a Mid-River-Tube with NYC's 2012 olmypic bid.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05172004.shtml#Jersey
Mea Culpa! I do like Frank Lautenberg-----sort of.
Didn't he just "terminate" funding for HSR in CA?
And it was a choice between two "devils we didn't know". McGreedy's opponent was former Jersey City mayor Bret Schundler.
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This is part of the reason I am boycotting Atlanta. That Spralltropolis has virtually no concept of proper urban planning.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05172004.shtml#Zero
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Do they mean CoR stuff or old Budds?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05172004.shtml#DMUs
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Wow, this comming right on the heels of 1 billion CDM given to the TTC. Looks like someone took notice of the plight Toronto was in.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05172004.shtml#GO
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority has proposed a ban on taking pictures or recording video in the subway system as a security precaution.
The idea is to hamper terrorists from surveilling potential targets. Exceptions would be made for members of the media and those with written authorization.
Among the other safety changes under consideration is prohibiting straphangers from walking between subway cars except during an emergency evacuation.
The MTA also wants to crack down on fare jumpers.
The changes require the approval of the MTA’s board
The idea is to hamper terrorists from surveilling potential targets. Exceptions would be made for members of the media and those with written authorization.
So this means no more fan trips either, since picture taking is the main component of these fantastic trips
The MTA also wants to crack down on fare jumpers.
Have they been doing this for nearly 20 years now. Unless NY1 should be rephrasing the statement "they should crack down on Metrocard swipers", instead of fare beaters. Fare evasion is not the scourge as it was back in the 1970's through the early 90's, todays major problems are vandals and swipers against all types of fare collection equipment now (except bus fareboxes).
Right. As if they haven't taken enough of those already.
Sort of closing the barn door after all the horses have escaped.;
I can't.
(it is kind of foolish to record a moving train)
No, it isn't.
Please explain your statement. I don't agree with this at all. I have hours of Redbirds on video that I enjoy and now that is the only way to see them on a regular basis. I suppose that others who filmed Lo-Vs and D-Types and AB Standards around the time they were removed from service were also foolish?
--Mark
But let's deal with things one at a time for now...
FWIW, I don't think the new proposal would include the locking of end doors (except at train ends and on 75' cars, as they are currently) - it would just formally criminalize the passing from one car to another when no emergency exists. After all, terrorists might try to plant a bomb in one car and move to another before detonating it, so why not just not let anybody move from one car to another? Then again, terrorists seem to have no problem dying with their bombs, so they might not do that. More paranoid bullcrap from the Department of Fatherland Security.
F*CK YOU, TERRORISTS!!!
P.S.: This post was meant to ventilate my anger, please do not respond. Thank you.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
I think this is complete bullshit and serves no real purpose other than letting the terrorist know that “Yes, you win. Let us now bend over, and take it up the rear and administer new laws that are completely asinine and idiotic.”
Security precaution my fucking ass, The MTA is full of shit, and if this ban does go through then I refuse to ride the subway, and I will buy a damn car. Service isn’t that great anyway.
Now who is overreacting?
Damn Alqueda, damn turbin heads.
Jim Fish
Albuquerque, NM
Da Hui
-Broadway Buffer
First you are accusing some subtalkers (myself included) of "Swiping more than Metrocards", now you are accusing all of us of aiding terrorism because we want to protect our consitutional rights.
If any terrorist wanted to do something in the subway they would have taken all the photos they wanted by now.
I don't usually say this about anyone, but Buffer - you are a mental case.
Could he be DefJef using a different handle? Their writing styles are different, but as far as I know the two haven't posted at the same time.
-Broadway Buffer
How will a photo ban help to insure safety?
They don't have to do it.
"where in my post did I accuse a subtalker of terrorism" - try
"Why should we leave ourselves more open to an attack just you can take a couple pictures of subway cars".
I see that as implying that by opposing the proposed ban we want to allow terrorists to come in.
Preventing people from taking pictures of the subway and buses will do absolutely nothing to prevent a potential attack other than make the powers that be look like idiots (even more than they are now).
"Oh, and you know I was just kidding around about the Swiping more than MetroCards thing."
I didn't know that. Your style of writing does not give one the impression that you are anything but serious.
Oh and by the way:
" Maybe you just don't really care about anyone and just don't give a damn of other people die"
On 9/11/01 I was at work, 2 blocks away from the WTC when the attacks occured. From a window I saw the south tower fall. I was watching on cable when the 2nd plane hit and the other tower fell.
As Fire Warden on my floor I had to stay 100% calm while others were in a panic. While everyone else was being evacuated I volunteered to stay and help staff a "command center" for my company (a big Bank). During all this time I was thinking about all those people in the 2 buildings.
I had to get that off my chest.
Buffer - as you will probably be a regular on Subtalk, I suggest you stop making accusations without being able to back it up, stop making statements about whether people care about something unless you know any of us and how we feel (if you had been here long enough you could have gotten that just by the way many of us post). And you will find that there are other ways to make a statement, make it appear serious but have it understood as being tongue in cheek (watch various postings and you will see).
I had to get that off my chest as well.
So much for my 2 cents (and I had to break a nickel).
Was it a known target, and did they expect that the whole danr thing would come down.
That said, the "State Radio" (i.e. command center) for the State of North Dakota is at the Frain Barricks in Bismarck: In an unmarked BUNKER 50' below the ground.
So if *I* was in charge of locataing a command center for NYC, they (more than one) would be in fairly deep bunkers in Central Park, Flatbush Park and Van Courtlandt Park.
Elias
-Broadway Idiot
(for gettin involved with this junk in the first place!)
Hey I got a train riddle for you,
How many pigs do you have to put in fron of a subway train going 45 mph to stop it?
Lets see if you can get that American Pig!
-Buffer
One one pig...by the name of Broadway Buffer who sould be the receiving end of a 12-9 for his assanine comments toward other Subtalkers.
Growing old is required.
Growing up is optional.
Now who has my Teddy Bear?
Elias
Getting to the photo ban thing. I think it's too bad that the MTA is doing it and I hope that it ends sometime. I can see why they're doing it, but I guess it really probably won't make any difference. So keep fighting it.
-Broadway Buffer
Reminds us of another phony who left due to illness (Twice!), only to come back and haunt us again with his low grade postings.
Or maybe I'm the only one who realizes that this security bullshit is a waste of time and taxpayers money?
How about this DICK. Go and take your security and stand next to a suicide bomber. Then tell me if you feel safe you cocksucker.
Oh yeah rigth!!!(ironically speaking)....like that's going to prevent terrorists from planning another attack. They should know that Bus/train fans and tourists are no different than journalists and other members of the mass media when it comes to taking pictures of transit vehicles and facilities.
NYC Transit, the division of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority that runs the subways, the buses and the Staten Island Railway, said the ban on photography and videotaping would not apply to journalists with valid ID cards or to people with written permission.
Having a valid ID card is not going to help deter a terrorist attack, because some journalists and other members of the mass media cound be a terrorist themselves thus, easily fooling the police....don't get me wrong I have nothing against the members of the media.
Fake ID's are nonexistant too. No one in Chicago was selling fake Hazmat licenses a few years ago, etc...
-Chris
http://www.straphangers.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=006058;p=1#000008
(scroll down a bit whne you get there)
"STATEMENT ON PROPOSED RULES OF CONDUCT
FOR NEW YORK CITY SUBWAY AND BUS RIDERS
Today, MTA New York City Transit proposed the first major changes to its Rules of Conduct for subway and bus riders in about a decade.
The NYPIRG Straphangers Campaign is sympathetic with the goal of making the subways safer and we support most of the proposed rule changes. But we have several concerns, which we plan to raise during the 45-day state-mandated public comment period for these proposals.
We object to the proposed rule that would completely ban taking photographs, film or video in the subways and on buses with limited exceptions . We respect the need for security in the transit system, but believe that there are important values in having photographers document life and conditions on the subways and buses.
The Campaign notes that in this year of the subway centennial, the MTA itself is sponsoring an exception of photographic images "offering a peek into the lives of New Yorkers throughout the decades, from quiet moments reading on a crowded train to grandstanding youths on an elevated platform." Photographers in the MTA-sponsored exhibition include Bruce Davidson and Henri Cartier-Bresson. (See MTA News Release at http://www.mta.info/mta/news/currentyear/040405.htm.)
The rule provides two exceptions that raise serious First Amendment issues of favoring one kind of expression over another. The rule would permit photographs by "members of the press holding valid press identification cards issued by the New York City Police Department" or "others duly authorized in writing to" take photos, films and video. No standards are detailed in the proposed rules for issuing such authorizations
Another rule would prohibit any person from "performing an act" with "may interfere with or may tend to interfere with the provision of transit service or obstructs or may tend to obstruct the flow of traffic on facilities Š." The Campaign is concerned that the "may tend to" language is vague and overbroad and might criminalize regular rider behavior, such as stopping for a moment in front of a turnstile to take out your MetroCard.
The Campaign supported a rule that would clearly prohibit "using the end doors of a subway car to pass from one subway car to another unless directed to do so by" a transit employee or police officer. But the Campaign urged that the rule be clarified to permit such passage in an emergency situation.
New York City Transit has said that the complete text of the rules will be posted at www.mta.info."
We need to root out terrorism, not everyday regular Joes and Janes who see photgraphy as a hobby. The danger on this proposed rule change is that it will encourage NYC and NY State government to enact more bans on photography until it will reach a breaking point that cameras will become contraband like guns, illegal to posses one, much less using it.
Remember, to respect the directives of ANY NYCT employee if stopped, so as long as they act in a professional manner to you.
I think they've already done that?
Didn't I read a few months ago that someone was ticketed for obstructing the flow of traffic when he stopped to bend down and pick up the MetroCard he just dropped in front of the turnstile?
If they really want to ban all photography, then it's time those Subtalkers who whine about being harassed (including myself) act. I'm suprised no one is challenging the core foundation of changing the law: that ANY terrorist uses photography to scout potential targets.
Take a look there...
Next thing they are gonna be contacting sites like Dave's, TransiTALK, Subway Spot, Other Side of The Tracks, Cleanair bus, etc to shut down thier sites.
The sad part is that these "terrorist" probably have all the shcematics they need to blow up a train or chem warfare. So like in a previous post. IT IS like closing the barn door once all the horse escape.
The 795
They can't possibly know exactly how to blow up a train or a part of the NYC subway system JUST FROM looking at pictures tehy took themselves!
And this whole storm door locking so that people can't walk through the cars? What in the uber poo is that???? This is sickening, these terrorists are probably looking at this and assuming that they are winning this battle that they are picking. I thought the idea after 9/11 was that terrorists won't win...? By getting so hay-wire about shit like this...it is only enisting fear in all of us and showing terrorist groups that they are getting their work done...
This is a stupid idea of the MTA to risk the safety of all its passengers just to make us "safer"? Catch-22, anyone??
I suggest that we as Subtalkers disregard our differences and misunderstandings and band together as we tell the MTA and any other agencies and all other parties involved that picture bans and preventing free movement around the transit system is not only making our ride more unpleasant, but is also risking our own safety while trying to ensure it...we have to tell someone, whether it's the MTA or the media that we speak to, but the message has to get out there...before something is done to hamper our lives...
From your fellow Subtalker...
Mr. "B"
P.S., any thoughts at all?
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Don't take ANYTHING for granted. It's already happening in NJ and other places.
The time to stand up and speak out is NOW.
Our freedoms (and hobbies) are AT RISK.
Then see what happens...
Merely having the pretense of a photo ban, whether or not it applies, or whether or not it's even been enacted (C/R's are apparently as we speak announcing it as law), gives the police an opportunity to harass citizens.
The things that will really work to deter terrorism are extremely expensive and time consuming. Certainly high on my personal list is making really, really sure that no one can smuggle a nuke into NY Harbor on a ship. Only a nuke can do more damage to us than we do to ourselves with cars.
But preventing that kind of activity isn't visible. The public wants reassurance that something is being done.
Which provides a better image (though not necessarily substance) of being a responsive organization when a member of the public tells a police officer that they saw someone suspicious:
- "Oh he's just exercising his First Amendement rights."
- "Thank you for being observant. I'll find out what he's up to!"
Count me in, Dave.
wayne
And I agree -- Tourism drives New York City's economy. I see tourists snapping pictures all the time on the subway (sometimes, oh dear, with a flash). Will they be arresting tourists or the people like myself and others who roam around stations in the middle of the night when they're empty to take random photos for posting on websites such as this?
The babysitting of adults continues in our brave new world.
David
Now I'm kicking myself I didn't come up with that line... wow. And it's not just terrorist crap - helmet laws? Warning labels on Preparation H telling us it's not for oral use? Million dollar lawsuits for spilling McDonalds coffee on your crotch?
Might as well start sucking my thumb...
"Written authorization" sounds like a photo permit. That's fine by me; I love getting challenged in Boston, only to whip out my yellow Get Out of Jail Free card.
Yeah, it sounds like their current photo permit program, which grants permits to exactly NO ONE.
No permit is required right now. Why would any have to be granted?
Correct.
Why would any have to be granted?
They don't. But according to emails and phone conversations posted on SubTalk within the last few months, if you contact the MTA about photography they tell you that permits are needed and give you a phone number. And then if you call the phone number and talk to the woman, she tells you that permits are not being given out at this time. THAT is the current photo permit program. So like I said, I'd guess than any future program would be just like this one - i.e. no permits given out.
Could it be that ther're not being given out at this because they are not needed?
No. When you contact the MTA, they tell you that permits are needed, and who to call to get one.
Sounds like a man with a plan... do tell :)
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Elias
John, (or others of a similar mindset) if you really want to make a meaningful protest then instead of talking, it's time for you to "throw the tea into the harbor". Call the MTA or the TA. Tell them who you are and that at a specific time you will be at a specific location for the express purpose of taking pictures. Tell them that you are taking the pictures strictly for personal use as a railfan. Then tell them that if the police ask you not to take pictures, as an act of 'civil disobedience' you will respectfully refuse to stop taking pictures and you will submit to peaceful arrest. Then charge your batteries, put your toothbrush into your back pocket, take your camera and go protest the rules.
Of course, I am not advocating this course of action and in fact would strongly advise against it. I just think that railing against the MTA here is like preaching to the choir.
NY1
May 20, 2004
If the Metropolitan Transit Authority has its way, straphangers won't be allowed to snap pictures on trains and buses anymore.
The MTA is looking to update its rules of conduct for the first time in 10 years, and one of the changes it's proposing is a blanket ban on all photography and videotaping in the city's subway system.
If it passes, the new regulation would mean that anyone caught taking footage with their camcorder would be questioned by police, who would then be allowed to issue a summons or even confiscate the footage. The only exceptions would be credentialed members of the media, or those who get written authorization from the MTA.
MTA officials say the move would help safeguard the transit system against would-be terrorists. In addition, the MTA points out that violators wouldn't automatically get a ticket – as with anything else, police officers would use their discretion.
"We're not trying to preclude people from taking beautiful pictures of our great subway system," says NYC Transit President Lawrence Reuter. "We just don't want people casing the system for acts that could cause serious harm or danger."
Nevertheless, a number of subway riders interviewed Thursday in Times Square expressed outrage at the idea.
"It just seems absolutely ridiculous," said one woman.
"It stinks," said another. "We should be able to take pictures."
"Are they going to stop you from drawing as well?" asked one man. "That could also be a security risk."
The New York Civil Liberties Union is criticizing the ban as excessive and ultimately unenforceable. But in fact, the new regulations may not end up being much different from the status quo; since the 9/11 attacks, police and transit workers have routinely stopped people from shooting video in the subways.
In addition to the ban on photography, the MTA is proposing changes that include stricter rules against moving between subway cars, putting your feet on a seat of a subway or bus, and wearing skates or standing on a skateboard.
The proposed rules would also crack down on turnstile jumping by riders who use Unlimited Ride MetroCards. The MTA has found a number cases in which people with unlimited ride cards hopped the turnstiles when the machine couldn't read their card, then fought the ensuing summons by arguing that, technically, they had already paid their fare.
The new rules make it clear that's not a valid defense.
"The concern here, of course, is that acts of this nature necessarily instill an environment of disorder, and encourage fare evasion and other impermissible conduct," explained MTA General Counsel Martin Schnabel.
The public has 45 days to comment on the proposed rule changes before they go to a vote by the MTA board.
Reminds me of when I was on concert tour with my music school about 10 years ago in Romania. We were travelling by bus from Sinia (Transylvania area) to Constanta (on the Black Sea), quite a long ride. The boredom and tiredness of the long trip was finally vanished by knowing we were going to be going over the Danube River (someone cue up a Strauss waltz). Everyone took out their still and video cameras to take footage of the Blue Danube....but it wasn't very blue.
In our excitement, we missed a sign on the bridge showing a camera with an "X" through it. We were soon surrounded by police and demanded that we turn over our film, as it was a "military strategic point." Luckily the head violin teacher, who organized the tour was orinally from Romania and we protested. It ended up that the conductor's wife, who was sitting in the front seat, in a dramatic display ripped the film out of her camera. We were finally let go, but it was quite an experience.
As a final reference to the quote, while we were being held by the police, one of my fellow musicians pulled out a sketch pad and started to draw the scene......
HOWEVER:
Among the other safety changes under consideration is prohibiting straphangers from walking
between subway cars except during an emergency evacuation.
WTF? The strappies don't consider this proposal to be a little
over the top? What possible "National Security" implications
could using the storm doors have?
David
There are plenty of good reasons for comfort alone to keep the doors open (folks have already mentioned overcrowding, dwell times and no A/C). How about pure safety?
If I get on a largely deserted train late at night, I like to comfort of knowing I can move to another car if some else gets on who makes me uncomfortable. If the door is locked and you're between stations, there's simply no avenue for escape, and, on nearly all cars, no way to contact the T/O or C/R for help.
Or, even more ominously, consider this hypothetical: What happens if you're in a car and a fire breaks out, or a planted device goes off and spreads some form of gas into the car? In the ensuing panic, somebody decides to pull the emergency brake (and someone will). On a rush hour train, you now have 100+ people trapped in a deadly environment with no avenue of escape. The lawsuits from a situation like that would dwarf the occasional nusiance suit from someone who didn't bother to try and cross between cars safely.
What is this fascination with crossing between cars that people would be in an uproar. I see people who have sufficient time stand in one place on the platform for 5+ minutes then walk torward the front or rear through train doors so they are where they need to be when the train stops.
But if I just catch the train by seconds, I may want to walk through it to get closer to the exit I need.
Allowing passage between cars reduces crowding, as people in overcrowded cars seek seats or at least room to breathe. It also increases passenger comfort, as people in hot or smelly cars can escape without waiting until the next stop.
Locking the storm doors will increase dwell times. Anybody moving from car to car will contribute to the congestion both exiting and entering the train.
Let the geese learn.
I see plenty of people loose their balance when walking between the cars and go through the next as if nothing happened. You average rider has no regard for the safety issues involved here.
One woman got on at JFK recently and crossed bwteen cars as it was moving at speed with 2 hand bags and one of those rolling suitcases.
If the majority were smart about crossing between cars I'd see no problem with leaving them open. However this isn't the case.
One reason people cross between cars, when the train is moving is that they have entered a car with non-functioning air conditioning. The TA in not considerate enough to place such cars in the same position on each train nor do they place a sign announcing the lack of air conditioning on the outside of the car.
What does the TA expect its patron's to do, when they have entered a car whose temperature is in excess of 100 degrees F. Most ususally move to an adjacent car. What are the alternatives, once the storm doors are locked?
1. Some ni99a smells like gasoline...
2. Somebody smokin weed
3. Grand Flatulence
4. No airconditioning/heat/climate control
5. No Lights (this happens a lot more than some think)
6. It's late, and there's a creepy individual sitting in the car that keeps staring at you and looks like he has a piece
7. The car is crowded, but the next car is empty(ier)
8. Train has just pulled in; you need to get to an exit at the opposite end of the train
9. Some loud preacher
10. Some fool playing an instrument
11. Some homeless bum sleeping
12. Condition in your car (smoke etc)
13. Somebody spilled something on the floor
14. Some group having a loud @$$ conversation
I think the concern here is that it *will* be a problem or a hassle. Other posters have indicated the catch 22 situation where they were givena number to call to seek a permit, they call the number and are then told that no permits are being given out.
I'd also suggest expanding one's horizons a bit and begin taking photos of the subway OFF subway property. For example, a shot of the Brighton and Culver lines standing on Surf Avenue shooting up West 12th Street. You might still get asked by the police what you are doing, but technically you wouldn't be violating the proposed photography ban because you are not on subway property.
--Mark
Locking the storm doors is right up there with the suggestion to bolt the windows shut: a "hey! look! we're really doing something to prevent terrorism!" charade that is about as helpful as "duck and cover" was when I was growing up in the 50s and 60s.
So that means that rollerblading is legal, someone does that and falls onto the tracks and sues NYCT and the the MTA in another frivolous lawsuit.
Why not the MTA propose a ban on people leaning over the edge of the platform instead? Make it illegal so that people will learn to be more safe and not put T/O's emotions at risk, much less the dumb customers bodies themselves. One jerk leaning over the edge can sure disrupt 100,000 people if he does that at 53rd/Lex, or worse yet at 14th St-Union Square on the L and gets whacked by a train.
And this is one of the most open, free Democracies in the world.
Below, a picture of a Bangkok BTS Skytrain station. The platform guard has no objection to his picture being taken, nor that of any of the Skytrain operation.
it's an unrealistic ban/enforcement........there are 468 stations, and at a minimum 2 platform personel per station, that would involve more money(which the mta doesn't want to spend)and potentially chaos......it would be hard to enforce imo..........
I can understand having a case if any1 has made a PROFIT from subway photogy
or if a subway crime was committed with inspiration from subway photos seen
on tal tal site....
Passing from car-to-car?? Whatif THEPACKAGE is in the same car as you??
Do the book-cookers expect you to REMAIN in the same car and get omeletted?
1 would think the Book Cookers have BIGGER things to worry about...
Like opening Second Avenue, mkay??
In both Boston and New Jersey, you can easily obtain a permit, free of charge (more easily in Boston).
Because the terrorists are so f*cking dumb that they would look at a photo of a busy platform and say, "I'm gonna bomb right THERE," without any planning or information, right?
Maybe the MTA should just go ahead and enact a subway-riding ban. Hell, maybe they should just ban people from being on any streets that have subways running below them or els above them. Wouldn't that be logical?
A terrorist (hate to say it) can walk into the Times Sq. subway station at any time and blow it out, pictures or no pictures.
This is just something that will piss off us railfans, and instead of sitting here and just typing about it, we should DO something about it.
Also, I like what Dave's done with the site, as past pictures could be "historical references".
I can tell you now, that ban or no ban, I will continue to take pictures on the subway system, as it has been one of my rights for years, and I'm not letting my freedom be violated in yet another way because terrorists crashed a f*cking plane.
This is still the USA, regardless of what terrorists exsist.
West End LCL
Sorry
Also, as a child I was told that before the line was extended to Euclid Av, there were sliding platforms at the Ralph Av. and Rockaway Av. stations to accommodate terminating express trains. Is this true? How were the locals and expresses relayed in those days after terminating at Rockaway Av?
Thanks,
Bob Sklar
There was a platform placed over the express track at Rockaway Ave, but not the current IND subway station, but the now long gone BMT el station directly above, which was used as a terminal from 1940-1956.
Yesterday, too, there were posts on the MTA website which said all "F" trains were bypassing Ft. Hamilton Parkway and that there was no service on the Rockaway Shuttle Line, both due to police investigation...
All in all, a very nice looking line -- I even saw one car doing some testing of the grade crossings near the 38th Street station.
There is a nice looking flyover down near the airport (over the intersection of MN-55 and MN-62) but I wondered how they were going to ever be able to keep the thing clear of snow in the winter.
From the Airport north, the line looks ready to go. Workers were putting finishing touches on stations -- the electronic sign boards are already in operation (though they only flash the station name -- no signs saying "Next train in 2 months").
South of the Airport, construction continues in earnest. (It's always nice to pass a construction team that is actually working!!) The Mall of America station actually appears to come about as close to the mall as you can without having move or knock down existing structures -- that's nice, especially when compared to the recent trend of having public transit stopping out in the middle of a parking lot somewhere.
The one thing that had me wondering was that there seemed to be almost no parking at the residential stations.
I wish I had more time to investigate in more detail, but no such luck.
CG
It rarely snows heavily in Minneapolis. They get lots of light snow, i.e., an inch or two at a time, but a rail vehicle can handle that.
No track connection; the North Shore passes underneath the bridge approach near the Elm Park station.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
We as railfans cannot sit down and let the MTA allow with this rule to classify us as a threat. We love this hobby because of its enriched history, the technology, and its unusual beauty. We continue to use photography to capture moments in time, to allow for history to be preserved through photographs.
We cannot sit around and let this occur. We must come out in numbers and go to the MTA board and say no. That we would not allow this rule to be enacted. It is a rule that would stop history from occurring. It will not stop the threat of terrorism, or even curb it. The MTA is going on a false hope that stopping photography might curb the threat of terrorism which it will obviously not.
Instead of going against rail enthusiast /rail buffs/ subway fans they should use our help in identifying threats. Since we are railfans we know with accord how other railfans think and in which the conduct they should act. We could tell with more clear judgment than any police officer in the subway who a real threat is.
If we cannot be allowed to freely take photographs, maybe a system can be established where subway photographers can be enacted with powers, allowed to continue their hobbyist but helping our country by looking out for the truly suspicious people.
We should be open to the idea of ID cards for photography or even permits. But to let the MTA ban amateur photographers and leave it to the press and others is clear violation of equality. Who knows if there are terrorist working for the press as we speak? Are we going to ban them too? Obviously not. So to say one could be a possible source of terrorism and one isn't is fair judgment.
We cannot let this rule pass, it is a must for all railfans, enthusiasts, hobbyists, and historians to show up and denounce these rules. We should be open to the MTA for a coming to the middle of the road deal that might include the use of ID cards. If we keep our eyes closed to other options then the MTA has a right to take away our right to photography. We might have to give a little, but the chance to continue our hobby, our documentation of history is what we get in return and that is worth it all.
So when hearing dates are set, show your support. Let us let the MTA how many railfans are there alone in the Tri-State area. Let them know we won't allow this to take place. Make sure you're heard.
The JOHN ASHCROFT laws?
We should be open to the idea of ID cards for photography or even permits.
I discussed that already, but most of the SubTalk population said it was a bad idea because social security IDs may fall into the wrong hands or something pertaining to that.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
In that case, you are no longer one of my favorite SubTalkers, and, well, welcome to my killfile, too.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
After all, if someone's on the list, they're going to want to know how they got on (unconstitutional snooping, racial profiling, anyone? Of course there could be legitimate reasons, such as an active informant who could be endangered by the release of such information.), and they want to know how they can clear their name - which nobody in charge wants to do - after all, if Mr. XYZW at DHS removes ABCD's name from the list, and ABCD turns out to be an unsavory character of some sort, Mr. XYZW's head goes on the chopping block, so there's no way Mr. XYZW is going to remove anyone's name, even if it's the Pope.
But what of images that have already been obtained? For example, the photos on this site and other railfan sites? Will they be deemed to be in contravention of national security? Will nycsubway.org be shut down, or worse*?
Whenever one freedom crumbles, others are sure to follow.
*For example, if some Al Qaeda geek uses photos or information on this site to assist in the planning of an attack (i.e. after the attack the culprit's computer is searched, a standard procedure, and lots of references to www.nycsubway.org come up along with cached copies of pictures on the site), or worse yet, logs onto SubTalk and gleans information from conversations with us here, could the site, and Mr. Pirmann (and possibly any SubTalkers who interacted with this suspect), be charged under the Patriot Act with providing material support to a terrorist group? Under the Patriot Act (in some interpretations), you don't even have to know that you're providing material assistance to a terrorist.
That doesn't mean I might not find some ways to peacefully protest these bans.
They have, because they have prodded the government and the citizens to act out of fear, fear that they will be attacked, fear that those with malicious intent will be able to accomplish their dastardly goals. We live in terror, and adjust our policies in response to that sense of terror - that was bin Laden's goal from the beginning.
It has been said, quite eloquently, I believe, that the Constitution is not a suicide pact. But if anyone thinks a few thousand guys from third world countries can take this country down, they've got another thing coming. Long after the Wahhabists and other fundamentalists kill each other off for whatever asinine reason, and their cancerous venom is little more than a footnote in a history book, we will live on as free and proud people. Then, it can be said that the terrorists most assuredly did not win.
It's a silly knee-jerk reaction on the part of the MTA to prove they're 'doing something' to ensure safety and security, when in reality, it's a translucent effort to appease the media.
Good luck to you all.
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
WASHINGTON -- Commuters who use Metro's Red Line can rest easy: a plan to take some of those new cars away has been derailed. Under a new compromise, other lines, as well as the Red Line, will benefit.
The issue is the number of passengers in each car during peak periods.
The Red Line was recently as