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Once at 7th Avenue and 34th Street, while waiting for an Uptown express (I was going to 42d St) I saw an off-duty LIRR trainman intently looking down the tracks. There was a electrical arc off in the distance and it told him all he needed to know. He headed over to the local platform and sure enough a 1 Train arrived a minute or two later. About 5 minutes later I was still standing waiting for a 2 or 3 when a second 1 Train came in! I think I missed my Metro-North train at GCT by a couple minutes and then had to wait 40 minutes for the next one. Okay, so next time I was at 34th Street I looked down the tracks and, when I saw a flash of light, I headed over to the local side. Got there just in time to miss an Uptown 3! ;=D
And why would you want to encourage passengers to use the local? This isn't Queens Boulevard; the locals are quite crowded already.
Forcing people to make mad dashes through narrow underpasses isn't my idea of good crowd control.
The answer is that the platforms are separated to encourage passengers to transfer between local and express trains one stop up, since the railroad transfer points would be crowded enough without cross-platform transfers in addition. (Little did the planners of the time realize how crowded the platforms at Times Square would get once interdivisional transfers came about.)
There are two changes I'd make. First, install annunciators in all of the underpasses, so passengers can wait downstairs and take whichever train comes first. Second, don't lock off the northbound local platform from the south underpass at 34/7 nights and weekends just because a nearby station exit is closed.
Was that originally the answer? If trains from 53 St. used the lower level of 42 St. SB then the transfers are vertical. At 50 St. the CPW local and Queens local/express are on different levels. At 42 St. the 53 St. line might have been sent via the lower level making for another vertical transfer. 34 St. is a crossunder transfer. It might have been originally planned for Queens locals to have no cross-platform access to the express until 14 St. I'm surprised they didn't carry their experiment to its logical end: expresses on one level and locals on another. It would've been an extension of what they did on CPW.
But there don't seem to be very many local-express transfers along the 8th Avenue line -- it's just not worth it for most, unless they're on an express and they're going to one of the three local stations. The last time I transferred between local and express at 42nd, I transferred from a NB A to a NB C on a Sunday to go to 59th, since the C has a clear shot but the A sometimes gets stuck behind a D. Turns out that, not only was there a D blocking the A's path, but it was holding for a connection for the C. (Once again, the local wins the race.)
Local-express transfers are a lot more common at Times Square and probably at Nevins.
Why 86 St isn't an express station I don't know.
I think that's what he was saying: keeping people on the local trains i.e. as opposed to getting off the local to change for the express.
Well I did put the word encourage in quotes for lack of a better word to use. I say that the anticipation of Penn Station crowding caused that but you're correct about Times Sq.
Forcing people to make mad dashes through narrow underpasses isn't my idea of good crowd control.
Why should people do that when the next express station is only one station away? I think people should use good judgement [and common sense] in making such a choice. Maybe the layout's intent was to discourage going through the narrow underpasses.
Answers are in the first paragraph of that page.
(1) The tunnels are very shallow, right below street level. There is no room for the mezzanine necessary for the normal NY style express platform with two island platforms and four tracks. Both subway stations at Penn Station were built after the railroad station opened and could only be placed above the railroad tunnels and right below the street level. Atlantic Ave. is similar but the subway and railroad stations opened around the same time (1908 and 1906 respectively).
(2) Three platforms were thought necessary to handle heavy patronage to/from the railroad stations - and also discourage express/local transferring. In each case the next station northward is also an express stop where transfers between local and express trains are possible due to the conventional island platform layout. Next nortward stations are Nevins St., Times Square, and 42/8th Ave.
The narrowness of the street forced that tunnel configuration. Putting the express trains below the locals was a simple solution but you could argue that they should have done something like Central Park West (which was built later).
How? First, there are no express stations under Central Park West. Second, passing CPW express trains subject waiting passengers to an aural assault.
No, but there could have been. Just put in an island platform between the two tracks instead of a side platform for the local. You still only have two tracks per level.
"Second, passing CPW express trains subject waiting passengers to an aural assault."
Agreed. This is a drawback which can be eased a bit by using continuous-welded track and by making sure your rolling stock gets regular care from the truing machine.
No, but there could have been. Just put in an island platform between the two tracks instead of a side platform for the local. You still only have two tracks per level.
But wouldn't that have meant the station(s) would need to be deeper than they currently are? If not, the stairs to the street would break the surface in the middle of CPW.
Until I read your post I never thought about this, but are the Central Park West stations the only IND underground stations without a mezzanine?
No, there are a few others. Fulton St on the Crosstown, for example.
West side: Franklin, Canal, Houston, Christopher/SS, 18, 23, 28, 50, 59 66, 79, 86, 96, 110, 137, 145, 157, and all Lenox Line stations except 148th.
East Side and Brooklyn: Nostrand, Kingston, all 2/5 stations except Sterling and President Streets, Bergen, Hoyt, Wall, all Lex Ave local stations except for 68th, 96th and 103rd streets, all underground Pelham Local stations. If you want to count elevated stations, add Jackson, Prospect, Simpson, Freeman and 174th Streets to the list.
IND
Dyckman-200th st, 135th st, all CPW local stations except for 110th st, 50th st, 23rd SAt (both 6th and 8th Ave stations), Spring, Clinton/Washington (Fulton St only), Nostrand/Fulton, Kingston/Throop, 46th st/QBL, Northern Blvd, Rockaway Park, Bergen St/Smith St.
BMT
Marcy Ave (elevated), Union, Prospect and 25th st stations on the 4th Ave line, Rockaway Parkway, Wilson Ave, Graham Ave, Grand St, Halsey St, Rector, Cortlandt, City Hall, Prince, 8th, 23rd and 28th st (Broadway Line), Park Place (shuttle)
Whew, can I catch my breath?
Fulton St, Flushing Ave, Myrtle-Willoughby all on the G line.
Vernon Blvd-Jackson Ave on the 7
Metropolitan Ave on the M
The CPW solution is only workable because there are no entrances to the trains from the east (Park) side of CPW. That's also the only way the BMT City Hall station works the way it does (I know, that's a different situation).
Also, at 86th it's quite reasonable to wait for an express or a local, whichever comes first. You can wait at a point halfway down the stairs and have time to go either up or down, wherever the train comes first. Or, even easier, you can wait at a point right at the top of the stairs and watch the other person who's already at the mid level of the stairs. When that other person starts to move, you know an express is coming in.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Some years back didn't the TA install audible annunciators (is that redundant?) at many stops? Seems like the Bedford Park 4 station got them, which I used quite often back then, when the 4 was known as the Muggers Express and it was s'posed to be a safety feature -you could stay downstairs where it was safer until your train was due. The thing is, at 34th & 7th the things are always going off. I've tried listening to them but I can't make heads nor tails out of them.
Why don't they copy MetroRail in Washington and have lighted signs telling you when the next train will arrive and what train it is?
That would require knowledge of what kind of train is coming and how far away it is even when it's not about to enter the station. Maybe when they're done with the CBTC on the L they can try this out, but for now we're stuck with stopgaps like the annunciators.
The annunciators do have displays though, which a little arrow and something like "DOWNTOWN EXP" if something is coming on the express track. It's just that they have no idea what's really coming ... an express train, a rerouted local, or, in the case of the downtown express track at 34th and 7th, a work train that will end up in the middle track between there and Times Square and never reach the station at all.
But where are they? I don't care WHAT train is coming in, only what track. I'm usually only going a few stops.
At Whitehall Street, the multi-color LED display in the southern entrance (near the SI ferry) usually shows just the date and time, but doubles as an annunciator for trains in both directions.
At West 4th Street, there are annunciators just after you enter the turnstiles at the West 3rd St entrance.
At 86th St and Lex, they're right inside fare control on each side, but also above both the top and bottom of each of the stairways at both ends of each platform. This is very useful for the many people transferring between the local and express levels (but incredibly frustrating when everyone sees "DOWNTOWN EXP" on the annunciator and goes downstairs only to find a work train pulling in, while the rerouted express is coming in on the upper level).
34th Street stations were built to accomodate crowds arriving at Penn Station. An additional platform *was* needed. And cross platform transfers were intended to be discouraged.
Now look at if from an arriving commuter's viewpoint. They *already know* if they need an express train or a local train, and so can go to the correct platform. Train frequency (especially on the IRT when built), was so frequent in those days that waiting for the first train was a moot point: Either track could expect an arrival within 90 seconds.
The IND was built so that there would be no purpose in switching to or from a local in the CBD. there is no advantage to that.
Elias
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
The people running the system seem to be able to make quick decisions. The projected ridership was off so much that three weeks into the operation of the system, the hours of operation were extended by a half hour in the morning (5:30 start instead of 6:00) and two hours at night (12:30 end instead of 10:30).
Also, on Friday night the pedestrians attending downtown Superbowl festivities weren't intelligent and/or sober enough to stay off the tracks, so service on the last 12 blocks was terminated.
From what I've been reading in the Houston Chronicle, this line is NOT a boondoggle.
No way is this a boondoggle. The system is meeting an immediate need, and probably needs extension as soon as funds permit!
(Unfortunately, my source for some of the comments, the Houston Chronicle, wants $$$ for archive stories, so I can’t post links.)
www.freewebs.com/islandtransit
enjoy!
What else?
IDK, kinda like what steveboatti said, it's transit.
D U H, any idiot could figure that out. This forum doesn't serve Green Day Punk fans.
I didn't really get interested in it too much until this summer when I went back for the first time in a LOOONG time. I saw the AMA, Metrobus, and Tren Urbano and wanted to learn more.
Interesting. Why did you go back there: was it personal or purely railfanning?
From there it just blossemed into everything. I created the website to place my ideas. There is really no transportation network that unites the towns of PR,
What about here in NY?
so I was hoping one day maybe some of my dreams would become reality.
How about getting your own domain? I'd like... NIMBYKILLER's spicy Paella of PR Transit.
Enjoy
Does anyone here know anything about this exhibit? Website? Location? Anything?
Thanks!
After all, that's my main beef with it - it doesn't GO anywhere. I like being able to get off a crush loaded F and get a seat, but it doesn't do me much good when 95% of the time I need the J M and Z and the damn V ends one stop short of my destination.
I believe that is the cube root of pi... :-P
The Crew:
I’m presuming that there is a similar plaque for Challenger on the back of Opportunity’s high-gain antenna, but NASA hasn’t released a picture yet.
I guess it’s another reminder that space travel is not like airline travel, there are significant risks and people do die.
This is Bowling Green
If it matters, I was on this train at roughly 11:45AM.
Transfer isn't supposed to be availiable to the ferry
By the way, have any tips on recording on R142/R142A cars? Like where should I be standing relative to the PA speakers and where should I stand in the car?
That gives you a total choice of 3 speakers on both the R142 and R142A; all of which are directly under the overhead units.
The "A" cars are your best friend, especially on the R142, but you can work in the "B" cars in the R142A as well.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Regards,
Jimmy
http://thejoekorner.quuxuum.org/suball.htm
AA - became the (2nd) K
BB - became the B
CC - became the C
DD - never regularly used
EE 1 - Continental Av - ?
EE 2 - Continental Av - Whitehall St
FF - never regularly used
GG - became the G
HH 1 - Court St - Hoyt/Schermerhorn Sts
HH 2 - became the H (AKA Rockaway Park S)
JJ - Canal St - 168/Jamaica or Crescent St or Atlantic Av or Rockaway Parkway
K 1 - 57 St/6 Av - 168 St/Jamaica Av
K 2 - 168 St - Chambers St
KK - became the (1st) K
LL - became the L
MJ - Metropolitan Av - Bridge/Jay Street
MM - never regularly used
NX - 57 St/7 Av - Coney Island
QB - became the Q
QJ - became the J
QT - ? - Coney Island
RJ - became the <R>
RR - became the (R)
SS - became the (S)
T - 57 St/7 Av - Coney Island
TT - Chambers St/Nassau - 62nd St or Bay Pkwy or Coney Island
The DD marking was used very briefly in December of 1962 when a water main break at 6th Ave. and 23rd St. forced some alternate routings.
The JJ operated between 168th St. and Broad St. during non-rush hours.
The QT's north terminus was Astoria. The pre-Chrystie St. QB also terminated there.
The T ran to Astoria during weekdays and to 57th St. on Saturdays.
The TT also operated as a shuttle between 36th St. and Coney Island during late nights and Sundays.
QT ran via Tunnel as Brighton Local when the Q (Brighton
express) was running cos of missing bridge capacity (north side)
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/1967.gif
And this one includes the KK, CC and others:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/1968.gif
I am interested in identifying exactly what types of subway cars are running on my beloved "A" line (8th Ave IND). I have looked at the photos in the "cars" section on this website, but the R44s and R46s look fairly similar -- similar enough that I can't really figure out which ones are in use on the A. Yes -- I admit I'm a newbie & need glasses!
Are there ID plates in the cars anywhere giving the car type? I often see ID plates on the outside wall of the TO's cab giving the car manufacturer & serial number. HOwever, I don't recall seeing the car series listed there. Where would I look for an ID tag? Or do I just have to "know" based upon the photos on the website?
Thanks for your informed answers!
SDB
The R44 is exclusive to the A. This link below should have all of your answers
www.nycsubway.org/cars
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/bytype.html
I noticed on that web page that the "R" numbers have some gaps. What does this mean? Were they contracts which were never funded? Or maybe contracts for capital equipment other than cars?
SDB
Most of the R contract #'s in between is for work equipment like diesels, cranes, etc.
David
Interior vestibules:R44: There is glass between the doors and the seats.R46: No glass.
Exterior belt:R44: It's painted gray and looks duller than the rest of the body.R46: The belt, like the body, is shiny stainless.
Cab door:R44: You need to be Calista Flockhart to fit through.R46: Wide cab door.
And, if you check the builder's plates for the original builder:R44: St. Louis Car.R46: Pullman-Standard.
Mark
R44: It's painted gray and looks duller than the rest of the body.
R46: The belt, like the body, is shiny stainless.
Remember however that there is a 4-car set of stainless steel R-44's. The car numbers escape me at the moment, but they appear quite frequently on the Rockaway Park shuttle.
And they sound nothing alike.
BTW, when you go to the Transit Museum or on a MOD trip most of those cars ONLY have names, e.g. D Types; Lo-Vs; Standards; Arnines; etc.
They are going to start using those names ... as soon as one of their staff sees the first cow fly !
(I was playing a joke with some of the names, just to see if anyone was listing) ... Mooo
This is a falacy. Two transit systems operate in two states yet are not under the jurisdiction of the FRA, PATCO and WAMTA. I don't know that WAMTA did, but PATCO was declared to be an "Interurban or Electric Railway", one of the requirements being isolation from the national railroad network. "Interurban or Electric Railways" do not fall under the jurisdiction of the FRA.
FRA control SHOULD have gone away once the system was severed from everything else, but hasn't, probbably because the FRA doesn't want to let go of it for some stupid reason or another.
Title of Law: Interstate Commerce Commission Termination Act of 1995
Law #: 104-88 Passed by Congress:
104th Congress (1st Session - 1995)
November 6 1966: President Johnson signs bill creating
Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority.
Governors of Maryland and Virginia sign November 17 1966 and commissioners of District of Columbia sign November 22 1966.
John
My pleasure.
There is an old saying, ignorance of the law is no excuse. With the Internet the law is at your finger tips.
John
I believe there are track connections (via switches) between PATH and the mainline railroads, but those connections are not used in revenue service.
SIR Is under a waiver (is it?).
The MetroRail, St Louis, and PATCO are captive systems therefore not subject to FRA rules.
They don't, that's the irony.
This is true of museum railroads as well. E.g. an insular
museum railroad with no connection to any other rail carrier
and entirely on private r-o-w with no highway crossings could
still be under FRA for steam boiler rules. I can think of
a large midwestern railway museum that has a track connection
to (what is now) the UP. This connection, IIRC, is a simple
switch that is kept padlocked. This museum railway is not under
the FRA although some aspects, such as highway crossings, are.
In the portion of PATH's line between Journal Sq. and Newark that
shares ROW with the Amtrak/NJT/etc. trackage, is there not a
crossover between the two?
As was explained to be by that guy in South jersey who built the railroad on hs farm, he could do whatever he wanted as long as he did not cross a public throughfare (like a road or waterway or railway). However, his steam engine did fall under STATE regulations regarding the operation of steam boilers which required some sort of liscenced inspection and operation.
I couldn't location the exact federal reg, but this line is repeted over and over again in many different places for a lot of the ancillary regulations re: rail transport.
(a) The term ``carrier'' shall not include any street, interurban,
or suburban electric railway, unless such railway is operating as a part
of a general steam-railroad system of transportation
BTW, yes the regularion still reads steam-railroad :-)
Dairy farmer Bob Stanton and his steam engine.
before the paint job
No one gets rapid transit equipment by rail any more, the cars are so specialized that the railroads can't and won't handle them.
Silk Road and other specialized trucking companies are making a small (or not so small) fortune moving rail (rapid transit and streetcar/LRV) moves. Silk Road has custom built trailers designed specifically for railcar moving, including 50 foot roll-on/rool off ones.
Gotten a new car at your friendly local trolley museum lately? 10-1 Silk Road moved it.
I don’t know if it was Silk Road that handled delivery of the CAF cars to WMATA‘s Greenbelt Yard from CAF's assembly facility in Hunt Valley Maryland. But yes there are "roll on roll off" lowboy trailers that can handle 75’ 80,000 rapid transit cars.
Some where in my image collection I have some pictures of one of the CAF car on a trailer in the unloading area at Greenbelt that was taken from the Capitol Beltway.
John
I find that hard to believe. Freight railroads will move everything from coach buses to John Deer tractors to aircraft bodies to wind turbine assemblies.
But they won't move 302.
After that, the transit industry went (almost) to inside bearing trucks and in some cases, non-air braking systems (except for NYCTA) and the railroads refused to move them.
So, the transit industry went to the highways to receive their new rail equipment.
Show me one transit property that received new cars by rail on their own wheels in the last 35 years and I'll believe your statement.
Back in the old days, the NYCTA got their cars delivered by rail, on their own wheels. St. Louis Car and ACF had their own gondolas that had an MCB coupler on one end and a Tomlinson (Hook type) coupler on the other. The subway cars were coupled and a gondola was on each end. The air brakes worked just like any other freight car, as far as the engineer knew.
After the cars were recieved, the gondolas were coupled together on the Tomlinson end and returned to the builder and the whole operation was started again.
One gon was coupled on each end of the cut of NYCT cars. The NTCT cars had their air brake systems set up for train line braking and the motors were cut out.
This took place in the early 1980s.
For more information go to:
http://www.rockhilltrolley.org/roster/1009.htm
Regards,
Matthew Mummert
I thought some of the R142s (or A models) actually arrived by rail. Were they not put on flatcars?
Did the M7s arrive by flatcar or were they put on 85' trailers over the oad with a lead car escort?
Somehow I don't see 60 hours of classroom training as equivalent to medical school and residency. But if you do, hey be my guest.
Having said that, railroad engineers have a lot of serious responsibility (and lives) on their hands. It is a non-trivial job worthy of respect.
"Hours of operation are approximately 4 AM to 3:40 AM."
Do they really close for 20 minutes? Or is that just their way of separating the morning hours of one day from the late night hours of another day?
I think it was also a legal reason to evict the homeless that would camp out in the station. I didn't know.
Not too long ago, maybe 10-15 years, when the homeless crisis was at its peak, Metro-North decided to close down GCT from 1:30 to 5:30 every morning so they could evict the homeless. Previously, it was open 24/7 and there were trains leaving at around 2:30 and 4:00.
Today, while there are still a lot of homeless, there are a lot of less blunt instruments that could be used to keep them out of GCT, Having last trains at 1:30 is sort of ridiculous in a city like NY where nightlife often goes on till 4 and many night shift workers in the finance and media indutries either arrive at work or leave for home between 1 and 5 a.m. And the LIRR runs 24/7 -- somehow they deal with the homeless at Penn. MNRR should at least extend the closing time till 2:30 if not go to 24/7.
1. All A trains should go to the Rockaways.
2. C trains should all go to Lefferts. Some Cs could be C diamond and run express.
3. V trains, or at least every other V, should provide extra local service to Euclid Ave. The crossover north of Jay Street doesn't seem any tougher than what they are trying to accomplish in switching the N from the express to local track so it can go to Astoria.
Anyway I am still surprised that Lefferts Blvd. needs just as much service as the Rockaways. One would expect that since the Lefferts branch is merely three stops, but the Rockaway branch is nine stops plus four from the shuttle, including Howard Beach, that Rockaway trains would be significantly more crowded.
The Lefferts line serves bus routes from other parts of Queens. The Rockaway routes doesn't.
Assign the "V" 8-car R32's. The "J" can extend to the West End line when need be with R42's released. With the net reduction of trains between Essex and Broad, shuffle equipment around and give some of the the "C" trains 10 cars at times and places that they need it.
Considering that the B and D run the same line after Pacific street up to the Bronx like it's always have, and the only scheduling difference is the late night issue, why not keep the names the same? It would confuse a lot less people on the West End and Brighton lines, since we're used to having the D on Brighton and the B on West End. There seems to be no real reason to call a "D running on the B as a D" a D.
Basically, she wants to know why they couldn't simply re-designate the existing D line as a "B" and the existing B line as a "D" for the purposes of generating less confusion once 2/22 arrives.
Responses would be most welcome.
Since lately neither the B nor the D has gone to Brooklyn they might have figure, "Let's start over". After all the Brighton has had the QT, QB, Q, QJ, M (two different types: Brighton-Chambers Exp before 1967, then later Brighton-Myrtle Local), D, and Q-diamond. What's another letter between friends. The West End has had T, TT, B, W, so same difference.
There are always lots of competing logics; they flipped a coin and chose this one.
Considering that the B and D run the same line after Pacific street up to the Bronx like it's always have, and the only scheduling difference is the late night issue, why not keep the names the same?
The B doesn't run late nights, so who cares? There's only one line. Unless I'm thinking of something different.
It would confuse a lot less people on the West End and Brighton lines, since we're used to having the D on Brighton and the B on West End.
What about the riders in The Bronx and Manhattan? Should they be inconvenienced just because of this?
There seems to be no real reason to call a "D running on the B as a D" a D.
Yeah, but it appears the MTA is retaining these routes as they are at the northern terminals. It wouldn't hurt, but maybe your friend could write the MTA if she feels this way. Of course, if she was this confused, she would have to ignore every little measure the MTA has taken for advertising this measure, including all of the posters, banners and brochures throughout the system; not to mention the replacement of most in-house maps on subway cars.
I guess ya had to BE there. Heh. But it *is* amusing how the D train has CAPTURED every BMT line except for Unca Fred's ... I'm seeing a loud announcer, paper-view, and a wrestling match here when the D train comes to Bensonhurst. =)
*NOBODY* is safe from the D TRAIN! Boowahahaha ...
Heh, when there's a G.O. on the D West End line, then the D will have no choice but to use the Sea Beach line in one direction.
MOO!
Changing it means that the B would be the new CPW X and the D the CPW L.
This confuses more the people, cos they have a longer history with the
current service on the CPW/Concourse, than the West End and Brighton it haves with B & D.
David
Duh, I can't figure it out. :)
They are two different geometric shapes! What's NOT to figure out? =p
The LOCAL owns and names the Brooklyn Lions, and the Express gets visiting rights.
LIVE WITH IT!
There are lots of discussions here of problems (or perceived problems) with subway service as it stands, often with proposed solutions. One problem that some have picked up on is inadequate local service in some corridors.
There are also discussions of waste (or perceived waste) in subway service as it stands, often with proposed solutions. One sort of waste that some have picked up on is underused services.
Sometimes the two happen to share a corridor: an underused express passing through inadequately served local stations. Bumping the express over to the local tracks kills two birds with one stone.
"Same as now" has both routes ending at 34th Street. By definition, that precludes use of either Brighton or West End.
"Uptown" didn't have a "Culver" or a "West End" or a "Sea Bits" or a "Brighton" ... the train WAS the LETTER ... that's why folks get up in arms with train swaps "up north" ... it's an A train - A to 207th. D to 205th ... ya just can't screw with that without torches, peasants, "South Bronx in YOUR neighborhood" as retribution for phucking with Mother Transit. :)
Regards,
Jimmy
LOL
BTW: Renaming the V as T and rerouting it from 2 Av to CI via West End
is no vendetta. I have listed the QB service as it is today. So no
complains about it.
Just did the math for that response.
18 (F) Trains Per Hour(TPH) = 3.3 Minutes(3 minutes and 18 seconds)
12 (E) Trains Per Hour(TPH) = 5 Minutes
15 (E) & (F) Trains Per Hour(TPH) = 4 Minutes
That means that E line saw a minute decreased while the the wait time for an F has increased by 42 seconds.
"Do you expect me to go into the Montague Tunnel,Blofeld?"
"No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to die!"
:0)
"If I die then the N train replaces me."
"I Trust he will be most sucessful".
That's a little like Jackie Robinson ofering an opinion at a Klan rally...
You know people [especially in the Bronx] wouldn't like to see the D become a part time line, it might sound silly but its true.
Wouldn't it be more consistent to have a uniform full-time service at 10 out of 11 Concourse stations than at only 5 out of 11?
Wouldn't it be more consistent to have a uniform full-time service at 10 out of 11 Concourse stations than at only 5 out of 11?
Is that a suggestion to remove express service via Concourse? If so, you know the people won't have it at all.
Well I think the rason it hasn't been done has been discussed alredy Lincoln, community outcry is the main reason.
No proposed service change is good for everyone. Should the planned February 22 changes be cancelled because Sea Beachers lose direct access to lower Manhattan and West Enders lose direct access to Broadway? Of course not -- even though some people are inconvenienced by the change (and they're inconvenienced a lot more than simply having to sit on the same train an extra three minutes), the net gain is positive, so they're going to have to adjust.
For rush hour peak-direction travelers at 6 Concourse stations, the B is the only line.
Take a step back from the letters. The Concourse line always has local service, and the Concourse local always serves all Concourse stations but one. The Concourse line only sometimes has express service, and the Concourse express always bypasses six Concourse stations.
It sure seems to me like it would make sense to give the full-time local service a full-time name and the part-time express service a part-time name.
Just like on the Brighton.
And what about 205th Street? the D is primary because it runs on Concourse more than the B does. What about 138th Street in the Bronx? sometimes it is served by the 5 only, sometimes both, sometimes the 4 only.
When the SAS comes, the (T) could be the full time Concourse local, or the longer running express(like the <6> in the Bronx)
Who cares what borough it's in? Is the D train operated and funded by New York City Transit or by Bronx County Transit?
And what about 205th Street?
What about it? It's one station that enjoys a consistent service (even though that consistent service has an inconsistent service pattern) at the expense of six that don't.
the D is primary because it runs on Concourse more than the B does.
D is a letter. It doesn't matter if the Concourse local goes by a different letter each day of the week -- the Concourse local is a full-time service and thus it should go by the same letter full-time.
What about 138th Street in the Bronx? sometimes it is served by the 5 only, sometimes both, sometimes the 4 only.
What about it? The rush hour 4 uses the middle track through 138th so it doesn't get bogged down behind 5's entering a sharp curve followed by a merge. The entire line north of 138th gets more reliable service at the expense of an inconsistent service pattern at one station. Would the entire Concourse line become unreliable if the full-time local were given a consistent full-time letter? The 4 and 5 go to vastly different places north of 138th, so they can't be renamed on a whim; the B and D Concourse locals differ by a whopping one station.
When the SAS comes, the (T) could be the full time Concourse local, or the longer running express(like the <6> in the Bronx)
The SAS will not be going to the Concourse line. The Concourse-Jerome corridor has more than ample service already, to both the East Side and the West Side; it doesn't have the demand for four services.
But the Bronx in general does, and a Concourse to SAS merge, once the SAS is operating to 125 St is much, much cheaper than dropping another tunnel across the Harlem River into the Bronx.
The Jerome Line and Concourse are not the same line; however they are close enough together so your comment about serving both East and West is not entirely inappropriate.
The MTA will look at this and say, "Hmm, the Bronx wants additional subway service. It's an additional $4 billion to run a brand new subway line to the Bronx; $300-500 million to merge the Concourse line into the SAS." In an environment where MTA will be fighting to fund the SAS and the 7 extension, there's really no contest here.
The SAS merge to the Concourse Line wins hands down.
In fact, the MTA is considering this option and the borough prez staff in Manhattan have told me that they and their counterparts in the Bronx are thinking about it too.
What about it? The rush hour 4 uses the middle track through 138th so it doesn't get bogged down behind 5's entering a sharp curve followed by a merge. The entire line north of 138th gets more reliable service at the expense of an inconsistent service pattern at one station. Would the entire Concourse line become unreliable if the full-time local were given a consistent full-time letter? The 4 and 5 go to vastly different places north of 138th, so they can't be renamed on a whim; the B and D Concourse locals differ by a whopping one station.
Besides that, 138 St/GC doesn't need all of those trains in the rush hour stopping there since it has relatively low volume.
I don't see how service would be unreliable on the 4/5 b/c of one station. I agree I won't think that the B/D would become inconsistent with the same letter at all times [as the full time route].
But this is a two-edged sword here. The would be no new lines needed above 125th st (it does not compare with QBL ridership), so one of the four lines will have to be merged with the Q and one line is lost below 125th st as the T will go to the Bronx. (What the you-know-what??????).
I don't think the MTA is actively looking at this — there are already more active subway expansion plans than the MTA has money for.
The most you can say, is that the proposed alignment of the SAS's northern terminal, pointing westward, makes extension along 125th St a realistic possibility at some date in the indefinite future. Like maybe 15-20 years from now, which is about how long it'll take to complete the existing menu of projects if we're lucky.
I agree that the Concourse Line doesn't necessarily need four services, but Concourse riders obviously would benefit from having an East Side commuting option. Anyhow, we're talking decades into the future.
So in other words, you would like to see the B as the Concourse express [since its part time] and the D is the full time local.
David
NO NO NO! Thats NOt So! That's a BALD FACED LIE! : )
When the (D) ran on the CULVER LINE it NEVER Stopped at DeKalb!
:)-
Elias
How stupid are passengers required to be?
People were confused when the V was introduced through 53rd Street and the F started using 63rd Street. They got used to it.
People were confused in 1987 when the N and R switched places in Queens. They got used to it.
People were confused in 1988 when the E started running to Archer Avenue. They got used to it.
People were confused when the AA became the K, and then when the K was eliminated in favor of midday B and midday/weekend C service. They got used to it.
People were confused when the B and C switched places north of 145th Street. They got used to it.
People were confused when the 2 and 5 switched places with the 3 and 4 switched places in Brooklyn. They got used to it.
Most passengers are not railfans. They're adaptable - if you tell them which train to look for, they'll look for it.
There are a couple of threads over at RD where they still claim the F has been affected negatively by all this; even saying the number of F trains has gone down with the V around. I'm sure this is false, since the trainsets the V has came from the G.
And you wrote:
"Most passengers are not railfans. They're adaptable - if you tell them which train to look for, they'll look for it."
Does that mean that railfans are not adaptable? ;-)
And by the way, a good number of passengers ARE stupid. I deal with commuter rail passengers every day, I see what's out there. Their I.Q.'s could be 200, it doesn't matter. Their *COMMON SENSE* flies right out the window when they step onto a train platform.
Since unification, and especially since the Chrystie Street connection opened in 1967, this choice had to be made many times. Maybe because the IND was the city line, it appears to have gotten ascendancy over the BMT. Virtually every choice of route changes has kept things as close to status quo for former IND users (Bronx, Manhattan, Queens) and changes were continuously made to route designations in Brooklyn. A previous poster pointed out that Brighton has had eight or so different letter designations of trains running on it, and the West End isn't far behind.
It has to be the BMT-IND thing. Otherwise, why would Brooklyn riders be bright enough to get used to all of the letter changes and Bronx riders aren't sharp enough to have one change on the Concourse?
I'd take the service improvements over keeping my old letters any day.
The service cuts you are talking about in the Bronx were all made to the old IRT, anyway. Many of the Brooklyn improvements you mention are to what are now IND lines (A,C,D,F). In the meantime, Rogers Junction (IRT) hasn't been touched. I am right there with you in wanting additions and improvements in the Bronx. My dad's family is from the Bronx.
If the IRT (A) Division didn't have different tunnel clearances and could use the same rolling stock, probably the same thing would have happened to it.
Where do people come up with this stuff?
Now will they actually be used on West-of-Hudson services, or will they eventually get painted into NJT corporate logos like the former Metro-North-labeled Comet IIIs were…? (Remember those?)
Also, is there an unofficial “Shoreliner III” name waiting in the wings, or do all Comets west of the Hudson get stuck with the Comet name…? (like the Shoreliners that used to be east of Hudson, NJT started calling them Comet IIS IIRC)
As far as NJT's Comet V's go, it seems like they tried to keep them together in the beginning but then gave up. As far as MNR's coaches west of the Hudson go, I think they have always kept them on just the PJ and PVL trains. So what has to be done differently here? Maybe I just don't understand what you are saying.
Bill "Newkirk"
What I think he meant, and what I would like to know, is whether any "west of the Hudson fleet coaches" were ever transfered to "east of the Hudson" service either temporarily or permanently up until now.
Thanks.
There's a whole untidy continuum of categories of electric rail transit, often with rather mushy boundaries and many borderline instances: street railways, modern light rail, people movers, rapid transit, interurbans, and mainline suburban electrification.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Sprague is credeted with the invention of the trolley pole in his electrifation of the Richmond Union Passenger Railway in 1888, although he may have actually developed the idea if a spring loaded pole with a wheel that pressed uo on the single wire.
The last known use of trollers, btw, was DC Transit, which used trollers in the conduit carhouses. Once a car was off the transfer table, which was conduit equipped the plow, was unpluged and a troller was plugged in so the car could be moved over a pit track. This was used until 1962.
If you compare them with PCCs or modern LRVs they certain seem un-trolley-like, but they are not rapid transit cars for several reasons: street-running on-board fare collection, overhead wire, and no passage between cars and, of course, the type of service they provided.
I know you can always find exceptions (OH wire in East Boston and Cleveland, old BRT el trains on street, etc.), but in their context those PST cars were definitely trolleys. If you look at some of the trolleys that ran on the streets of Brooklyn (5000s) and Manhattan (Broadway Battleships) you could similarly make the trolley vs rapid transit argument.
Frank Hicks
A video tape I have about the history of The Trolley tells about a city that had cars which had a kitchen area that served breakfast in the morning. And if I'm not mistaken it was a city car, not an interurban.
The car with the kitchen was a Dallas Railways publicity stunt in cooperation with General Electric, who was pushing electric appliences for the home.
The equipment supplied was custom built - everthing ran on 600 volts DC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That the car had couplers and ran MU does not make it an RT
car. There were many examples of MU streetcars. To me, the lack
of any high-level loading ability disqualifies it from considering
as a Rapid Transit car.
A car which flirts much more with the RT distinction would be
North Shore 709.
Sorry for dragging ya in, dewd ... but it's somewhat TECHNICAL and SOME of us STILL come here to the shrine in hopes of some "technical dish" like you, Jeff H. and a handful of others STILL offer - but and bolts - you know how it was in RTO ... we weren't ALLOWED to know what that red handle REALLY did under the longitudinals on Arnines - if the door died, throw it, open panel, throw wingy-thingy, indication fairy smiled, buzz-buzz. It was like that. We GO now, OK? :)
I just miss the "old" subtalk where I'd learn every visit about the details of the old gals and WHY I had to uncork a door by looking for the newspaper in the track and NOT have to cut it out ... WHY cab speedos will read streetlights and all the other morsels that attracted so MANY of us here in the first place. I *really* miss that aspect of this place - the MEAT. :)
I can understand with petrified political hacks running the "home office" that my own PERSONAL attraction was "war stories from the trenches" of my fellow TWU members just giving forth "a day in the life" ... I found those to be more "humor" than indictments, the proverbial "get it off your chest and chill - we care here" pressure relief - over the years, I ENJOYED sympathizing, comiserating, and sharing how it was years ago ... but all that's gone now with our current never-ending-state-of-fear imposed by our "leaders" ...
TRULY sad though is that folks BELIEVE this qwap of "today's an ORANGE DAY! Anita Bryant sex so" ... is our leadership SO out of it that after growing up in the 50's, 60's and 70's that we've all FORGOTTEN what a "MUSHROOM CLOUD" is? And DESPITE the ferocity of those we've cheesed off in the world, can a mass-destruction in a relatively small area *REALLY* compare to the former realities of 50,000 mushroom clouds and EVERYBODY'S dead? I just can't SEE how a bunch of diaperheads can somehow be SHOVED into our faces like they are the RUSSKIES of the 50's. :-\
In other words, cannot fathom why folks on the rails can't talk about it anymore. Our "enemy" is WAY too smart to hijack a subway train. In reality, what are they gonna do? Shoot a wheel detector? Hell ... GAMBLING in Islam is forbidden. :)
1]The ticket machines, CCTV cameras, call boxes, and electronic signs are installed at all stations. No maps or other printed matter is there yet.
2]The idea of running simulated service during the current shitty weather is paying off. It tells everybody involved in the operating of the line how the equipment is doing under the extreme conditions we're going through. This is better than doing this in the spring and summer, and having breakdowns in the winter, at least any defect is taken care of now and its performance is monitored during the bad weather.
3]I recently saw the new NEC schedule [effective 2/15] online and I was appalled that there was no mention of the River Line. I sent an e-mail to NJT notifying them of this grevious oversight. I hope that NJT makes a mention of the line when the schedule changes again.
4] I wish NJT would release some of the literature pertianing to the line [promo literature, schedules, etc.] so people can begin to plan their trips on the line. Keeping this stuff a "state secret" until opening is really hampering any building of ridership for this line, especially since this line needs all of the ridership it can get.
5] The cars really look comfortable. The seats are more like the seats on MCI buses rather than the usual light rail seats found on the NCS and HBLR cars. The cars also has luggage racks on the front section [near the motorman's cab] and has places for wheelchairs and bicycles.
6] I'm going to promote the hell out of the line on my own. I plan to let the alternative papers in town [Phila Weekly, and City Paper] about its low fares, and more frequent service than SEPTA, and hope to lure some of the college crowd into riding the line as a cheap trip to NYC. I know, that with this line operating, my visits to NYC and North Jersey will be a hell of a lot more frequent.
If you got anything to comment about on this subject, feel free to post on the board.
Also, does anyone at NJT headquarters at Newark seen any of the literature up there yet? If you did, please post them at the board.
Mark De Loatch
mdlbigcat@comcast.net
Remember the opening was postponed twice.
Chuck Greene
Also it's a race to open on time.
: )
Mark
Chuck Greene
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
I found a one with a M-N theme that I also liked (I have three on my wall: Bill's Subway; M-N & LIRR). I saved a spot for the NH one, but they either didn't do one this year or I missed it at my local hobby shop.
Personal business brought me to New York last weekend (1/23-25) and gave me some good opportunities to ride the subway as well as do some exploring on Sunday. Surprisingly, I was able to pick up some "rare mileage", that is, tracks (usually short sections such as crossovers that do not see scheduled service).
Arrived LGA about 8:30p Friday. 9:00 Q33 to the E to my hotel at 53rd/3rd. No rare mileage tonight. Crawled from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza - no idea why (F had gone through about five minutes earlier). I assumed timers until I rode it again on Sunday and we flew through there.
Saturday, my main item of business kept me off the subway until evening when I was going to Chinatown for a banquet. 6 from 51st to Canal was routine. Uptown 6 was running express Brooklyn Bridge to Grand Central so had to take the 6 south first to BB (if I had been thinking fast enough as I walked down the J platform on my way to the 6 platform, I would have hopped on the downtown J that arrived as I was on the platform). I had hoped we could ride around the City Hall loop but we were told to leave. An uptown 6 was just arriving but sat there for several minutes so it was clear trains were holding on the loop for several minutes. Two bits of rare trackage - crossover from the local to the express north of BB and again from the express to the local north of Grand Central.
Sunday started with me riding the Pelham line, a line I had never ridden. Downtown 6 trains were running express from 177th to 3rd so that was fun. To the TA's credit, at 177th and Hunts Point, trains were opening on the uptown platform giving people to/from the skipped stations a cross-platform connection. But at 3rd Ave, we crossed back to the local track which seemed strange. I assume the weekday diamond 6 stays on the express at 3rd Ave. If so, then the crossover entering 3rd Ave was another bit of rare mileage.
I then planned to ride the Dyre Ave line but when no uptown express had arrived at 125th in 20 minutes (about 11:15am, both 4 and 5 should be running every 12), I gave up on that decided to do Flushing instead. Rode a downtown express to 59th, then W to Queensborough Plaza. The 7 was terminating at QP on the lower level so I was able to ride wrong-rail out of QP and then cross-over picking up some more rare mileage. Rode to Willets Point (I wanted to see the station connections to Shea and Flushing Meadows Park), then back to 74th. Willets Point sure is a desolate station when nothing is going on. At 74th, it was downstairs to the E. To my surprise, the express tracks (both sides) were taped off in an unpublished G.O. (they appeared to be doing some work to the ceiling in the station). E arrived on the local - to my surprise, the T/O had to stick his head out the door and listen to what the conductor was announcing to make sure both the C/R and the Tower were on the same page. At the same time, we got Green over Yellow and it was over to the express for another bit of rare mileage. Unlike Friday night, we flew to Queens Plaza. Per a G.O., the E was express in Manhattan while the A went local and Rutgers so leaving 50th, still more rare mileage as we crossed to the express (and got a view of the site of the removed switch to 42nd lower). Quick express ride to Canal and then the final bit of rare mileage as we crossed to the local.
Running the E express and the A and C via Rutgers leaves no service downtown at Spring Street. Are the three routes (A, C, and E) really too busy not to have all three run local?
Next was PATH. Definitely a wierd feeling walking from the E to the PATH. Rode the next train to Exchange Place, then back to WTC so I could see the arrival from the railfan window. Then it was time to head to Newark. I had just missed a NWK train so I took the next HOB train to Exchange Place figuring it would be warmer waiting there (it was until the next train left WTC and acted as huge ram pushing frigid air into the station). At Newark, I took the next NJT train to EWR, monorail to the terminal, and home to Chicago.
With my riding of the Pelham line, I'm down to three short sections of IRT I have not ridden: the entire Nostrand Ave branch, Lenox Ave from 135th to 148th, and White Plains Rd north of Gun Hill Rd. Why did I only go to Gun Hill? Because it was many, many years ago and I went there to change to the "8" (that was before I knew enough of the history to know that "8" was just a designation on the map and it was actually the last running segment of the 3rd Ave el - but fortunately I did ride it (and the Culver Shuttle too on another day)).
You did splendidly for a non-local, including that Q33. Welcome aboard.
MTA has a plan to improve the way trains clear Harold Interlocking, which will help both commuter rail and Amtrak service. David Gunn insists, quite rightly, that MTA needs to assume all costs and liability for work done on Amtrak property (he has no choice: Amtrak has no money to contribute).
Discussions are going on now, and it's likely an agreement will be in place before this issue becomes an obstacle. The NY Times says "roadblock," but it isn't one yet.
URL at http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/01/nyregion/01amtrak.html
NY Times link
If you were in charge, how would you use Harold Tower? What kind of tech or procedural innovations would you use?
This would put the controler right in the middle of the action where he can make more efficient decisions.
Did you not ask this same question two months ago? That is what I seem to remember. Get someone to show you how to save web pages off the computer, if you do not know how to do it (hint: Go to “File” on the menu bar and then choose “Save As”, then you can have them all the time).
The answer now is the same as last time: No. Since MOM is to be a diesel service that does not go to Manhattan but instead will terminate in either Newark or Hoboken, new tunnels under the Hudson River have no bearing or effect on its service.
Also, where did you get the year 2015 for new North River Tunnels and 2010 for unspecified “near-term improvements” (and what indeed will be improved)?
WHY DID THE G USE 6 R46'S BEFORE THE V CAME IN. I JUST HOPE THE MTA DOESNT DESTROY AN UNUSUAL INE LIKE THE G BY CUTTING IT DOWN TO 2 OR 3 CARS.
WHEN THE W IS REVITALIZED IT SHOULD USE 8 60 FOOTERS AND OR 6 75 FOOTERS
WHY DO I ALWAYS HAVE TO RUN UP TO CATCH A C TRAIN
Until September 2001, the 3 ran 9-car trains (either 9 singles or 4 singles and a 5-car set) of R-62A's, because some of the tracks a Lenox Yard can't handle 10-car trains.
With the new cars coming in, it had already been decided to lengthen 3 trains. After 9/11, the 3 was the only express, so full-length trains were especially warranted then, and it was operationally easier to merge the 1 and 3 fleets than to keep them separate, so the change to full-length 3 trains took place a bit earlier than planned.
WHY DID THE G USE 6 R46'S BEFORE THE V CAME IN.
Why not?
I JUST HOPE THE MTA DOESNT DESTROY AN UNUSUAL INE LIKE THE G BY CUTTING IT DOWN TO 2 OR 3 CARS.
Most R-46's are in 4-car sets, and a few are in pairs. There are no R-46 singles.
WHEN THE W IS REVITALIZED IT SHOULD USE 8 60 FOOTERS AND OR 6 75 FOOTERS
Why?
WHY DO I ALWAYS HAVE TO RUN UP TO CATCH A C TRAIN
I don't know. The C runs underground for most of its length, so most of us have to run down to catch it. And I do mean run, because there's no telling when the next one will show up.
So if they now run 10-car 3 trains, how do they handle the short yard track issue?
A few 3 trains in the evening terminate at 96th and run light to the Bronx. (At first they ran in service, but I guess that confused the passengers. I'm not sure, but I think they run in service back down in the morning.)
See, now I changed it to Arial
[font face=Arial]Text[/font]
Remember, use these <> in your tags instead of these [] brackets or it won't work.
WHY DO I ALWAYS HAVE TO RUN UP TO CATCH A C TRAIN
Because its 8 cars that's why.
Which is known by AMTRAK as WAS ;)
A interlocking being the interlocking connecting the south end of the lower level platform tracks in Washington Terminal to the south throat that connects to the main line at Virginia tower.
John
Michael
Washington, DC
Wantto win the Super Bowl, next year, Panthers? Invest in mass transit. Make sure it serves the stadium.
A public-service message brought to you by Football Fans for Mass Transit.
:0)
Mark
Mark
You don't know what you're talking about. MBTA is a cobbled-together, tinkertoy system. The E from Heath St to Arborway was "temporarily" bustituted 19 years ago, and (DUH!) it's still on the maps. I once waited 42 minutes for a train that runs on posted 13-minute headways, missed the last train back to South Attleboro by three minutes, and had to stay overnight. They can afford to build a new subway to replace the Causeway St el, providing no new service, but can't afford to connect North and South Stations, a vital service that's missing. The fare structure is almost as complicated as SEPTA. Don't get me started on the buses...
And I would be the last person who is confused about the Green line fare structure. If I am confused, then forget it, everyone is confused.
If you think 19 years was a long time since the E line was "bustituted", then I will post a link that is totally unbelievable, and is a NYC website yet.
Be back at 1 PM for that DUH! of the decade.
That's not MBTA. That's the highway folks. MBTA was lucky even to get that much.
:0)
The site is: http://www.nydailynews.com/
Pssst. It's an unedited and CLOSE-UP version. However, since this is a family website, I will not provide the link at this time.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Who won, anyway? :)
Mark
And there are a lot of tax payers in the Charlotte-Mecklenburg area that are pushing back. From what I have read and heard on the radio on this project there is a lot of strong opposition to the light rail line.
John
Mark
It will pass a couple of blocks from the stadium, along the route now used by the heritage trolley line. Here's a view that shows both the trolley and the stadium.
: )
So what drew you to that conclusion that anything on the Q line is bad?
I was just looking through some pictures of the Pittsburgh LRV system, and saw this one of a stone platform and canopy.
I'm a big fan of stone construction, when done correctly. It's beautiful and durable. A block of granite will last forever under most conditions. Polished correctly, it can be cleaned of graffiti. Unlike tile surfaces, a chip or scar doesn't result in revealing an ugly under-surface, but rather simply more granite. It couldn't care less about water. It can bear a load. If it's thick enough, you can hit it with a car, and it'll shrug it off.
Now, for all these benefits, you'll have to pay. Concrete is cheaper, and much more moldable; but it lacks the lifespan of serious stone construction. The MTA is moving away from exposed concrete surfaces, anyway. The problem is, where stone IS being used, it's being used poorly. the stone tiles I mentioned before often adorn the bottom of walls, and edges of staircases. The problem here is that they are very thin, maybe 1/2 an inch, and lack proper backing. I've seen them start to come apart; a hard enough kick or enough water eroding the backing with ruin it.
While the IRT used stone for some of their street-level station houses, they embroidered it with terra cotta, which wore away quickly. There is very little other stone in the system.
I HAVE noticed, however, that the MTA is experimenting with more stone. In the new Atlantic/Pacific complex, there are two major uses. One is for an ass-ugly wavy lower-wall covering, with a rolling, sin-wave top; below the wave is a gaudy marble, and above it is white tile. The other is a strikingly beautiful gray, heavy stone, probably granite, forming a wall and corner of the pedestrian passageway under the IRT lines. I've NEVER seen anything like it anywhere else in the system. It's both lovely and strikingly different; it contrasts with everything else.
After seeing stations like MARTA's natural-stone Peechtree Center, does anyone else think that the MTA might be better off looking to use more durable, beautiful stone, rather than bathroom tile?
Discuss among yourselves.
Mark
Bob Sklar
I had written MTA in December, requesting that they include AirTrain in full detail on their maps. The December version of The Map that I have shows AirTrain, but not in that kind of detail. I see they've fixed that.
I will send a thank-you note to my contacts and ask them for the Feb map, with the new Manny B service on it.
It shouldn't be depicted as a diamond since the trains are the same trains that run the whole route. Diamonds it seems now are for peak variants (like the <Q>)
But the <5> in Brooklyn IS a peak variant. It doesn't go to Brooklyn all the time. Just in the rush.
The <Q> is a peak variant because it varies from the regular full time route while it still operates, it is actually used to distinguish a service.
This was brought back on the previous map, December 2003.
I also saw the new map on the Hindu-Arabic numeral V train.
The blue railroad tracks and blue box symbols represent "Commuter rail service" (and stations), not TA rail service.
also 6 trains stopping at bleeker st still say transfer is available to the BDFand Q trains now it says transfer is available to the F,V,and Grand St shuttle it will then soon say BDFand V trains
It is not a book about equipment nor a book which ponders car assignments, route designations and other issues which are frequently the rage of discussion here. But there are articles about Harry Beck's trip through the system, Phil Copp's 25+ year project detailing the appearance of the stations and the column recounting my own surreal connection with the subways and life.
The article on the ugliest station in the system which has contributions by Subtalkers is included. In other articles, David Pirmann, Carlos, Clayton and Larry are quoted.
It is primarily a book about the people who use the subway, the people who operate the subways and the people who entertain in the subways. Randy grew up in a Texas town of 1400 and hoped to live any place where he could walk out his door and see people he didn't know. I mention that, because I think his columns are fueled by his yearning to experience the mysteries of people not known. From my own experience, I can say he succeeds in getting a feel and understanding for his people and presents their vision of life and their world in a non-judgmental way.
In the introduction, Randy describes the amazing social milieu that millions of riders are thrown into. Rush hour is an experience which brings people of radically different backgrounds together and is the cauldron out of which the "New Yorker" emerges.
In this year celebrating the 100th anniversary of the subway system, Randy Kennedy's book is a celebration of the humanity of the millions of the people who either ride and endure the system, work in and struggle to survive the system and those of us who are fascinated by the system.
Randy Kennedy will be reading from the book at the Transit Museum on Saturday February 21st at 1:30 PM.
I will be there to continue making a public spectacle of myself.
I will look around later this week at some B&N stores to see if there is a copy out there.
This book sounds similar to "Subway Lives," written in 1991, which is another great book. If you haven't read it, I would definitely recommend checking the used book websites, such as ABE, to try to get a copy. It will be well worth your effort.
I'm afraid you might have company this time. But I do hope he mentions you and your R9 cab in your book.
I've revised the copy of the book that I bought. I ripped out all the pages not having to do with me. It's now a much more readable book.
It's been quite a weekend, what with the CBS interview and the appearance of Subwayland. I think the moment is ripe for me. I've decided to join the race for President this year, and will begin my campaign on the Q train tomorrow. I hope some of motormen and conductors at this board will slip in occasional annoucements supporting my candidacy. In return for your support, in the words of Ed Norton "As long as I am president of this country, you can rest assured that you will be a motorman/conductor for the rest of your life."
** I think this is the first time I've ever used "notwithstanding".
For example, if you quote someone asking a question, does the question mark go inside or outside the quotes?
He said: "Can I leave early"?
He said: "Can I leave early?"
(Is it correct to use a colon"
I hope Karl B is around.
Please do! I'll bring a camera for evidence!
avid
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
Dammit ... we've got to extend the Sea Beach to MARS ... then it'll be OK. :-\
Mark
Mark
Mark
And, why exactly are they doing the lawsuit NOW, it's been winter for ages!
??
Refrigerants (HFC-134a, CFC-12, HCFC-22, and many others) don't "go bad." You'll need to (recover and) recharge if refrigerant leaks out, or if dirt or moisture gets into the circuit.
Recharges are virtually unheard of in some systems, like the ones used in current window air conditioners and refrigerators. There, the compressors are hermetically sealed, the refrigerant circuit is entirely metal, and connections are soldered. In automotive systems, the compressor needs a (prone-to-failure) shaft seal because it's pulled by the engine, flexible hoses are used in part of the circuit, connections aren't as impermeable (and are sometimes quite awful), and the entire system is subject to vibration and other awful things that happen in a car. Still, even in the car, recharges shouldn't be considered routine maintenance.
If you're asking purely about automotive applications, the answer you're looking for is that if you leak CFC-12, you'll leak HFC-134a at least as quickly. Get the leak(s) fixed.
Mark
Is that why many stores feel so HOT in the summer? I used to enjoy shopping years ago when you could actually feel COOL in a store - now I'd rather stay home with the AC on full blast!!
Chalk it up to energy conservation more than anything else. HFC-134a will cool less effectively in a system designed with some other refrigerant in mind, but it doesn't take much to engineer a system with desirable characteristics around 134a.
On the other hand, it's easy to cut costs by turning the thermostat up a degree or five.
Mark
These are even better, since they contain no chlorine and can't produce the chlorine radicals that lead to ozone destruction.
Mark
Interesting timing though, i was just reading a story about a state's DEP head quitting his post to run International Paper. Apparently he's been corrupt with them and a bunch of other companies looking the other way for a long time. Maybe the subways need to raise fares for more payoff's.
http://www.timesnewsweekly.com/NewFiles/OURNEIGH.html
http://www.timesnewsweekly.com/NewFiles/013TRACKS.html
That Q-type car had A LOT of modification! :)
Uh-oh...
Great photo!
Submission for February 2004 has begun, so post them photos!
So here's the scenario: Giuliani wants to run again, and would want to do so as a Republican (which he is). To avoid a primary battle with Giuliani, Bloomberg returns to the Democratic Party, since he was a Democrat anyway until he switched to avoid the Dem primary in 2001.
So it's Guiliani the Republican vs. Bloomberg the Democrat or a Third Party Candidate in 2005. What Do You Think?
Obviously, aside from stylistic differences, the election would have enormous implications for the city and, obviously for rebuilding and transit.
He would have been an unknown against a big field of Democrats.
Why didn't he switch parties after he was elected?
Why? There is a Republican Governor and a Republican President. Bloomy had every reason to continue to pretend to be a Republican unless he was forced to switch. In 2005 he might be forced.
Personally, I think wanting to be Mayor of New York reveals a significant personality disorder, but if you like it, why stop?
Rudi caused more diversion and polarization in NYC than any other mayor. During Koch and even Dinkens relations between the police and the minorities were actually getting better. But Rudi completely disenfranchized the minority community against the police more than it ever has been.
In summary New York would have been a lot better if Rudi didn't run as fast as he did on 9-11.
They don't trust Republicans with their money.
They don't trust Democrats with their lives.
How public sentiment swings between those is a better predictor of electoral success than most.
They don't trust Democrats with their lives.
They don't trust Democrats with either.
This is a very, very touchy issue with Long Islanders as many (if not most) people think the pay scale of county cops is way out of line. There was a time in the 80s/90s when there was a 'pay race', wherein Nassau cops would get raises, and then this new higher base salary level would be used to set the Suffolk contract when that came up (and vice-versa).
Correct me if I am wrong, but is it true (or was it true) that the arbitrators cannot use 'Ability of County to Pay' when setting the salary disputes (this is what I read in Newsday - I do recall most contracts going to arbitration)?
Anyway, lately this police 'pay crisis' seems to have been overshadowed by the counties' Medicaid Payments crisis, which again promises to swamp the counties' taxpayers' ability to pay. Oh Goody.
>>>>Rudi took PERB to court saying it was unconstitutional because of home rule. After two appeals the courts declared PERB unconstitutional.
I'm not sure if you worded this phrase correctly, but what you wrote above was Rudy considered NYC PERB unconsititutional, and, in fact, it was...
Wasn't some modified form of PERB eventually enacted for NYC?
The city's long had a Medicaid crisis, now the suburbs are finding themselves in the same boat. Medicaid's a prime example of a program that was started with the best of intentions but has turned into an unstoppable rapacious monster.
That's a crock. The final days of the Koch administration saw the Yusef Hawkins murder in Bensonhurst, which led to a straining of race relations. Dinkins is the only mayor to have oversaw a legally-sanctioned pogrom in 1991. Rudy's concentration on law enforcement over racial pacification probably save thousands of lives during his mayoralty.
If all goes well I won't be a NY resident any more by the time this election comes around ;-)
Giuliani was good in some ways, bad in others. Those in the know realize he sold out the future of the city ten times over to pump up his own popularity. That is the future we are living in now.
On the generational equity issue, I'll take Bloomberg or Miller. No older pols, like Ferrer or Thompson. I'm tired of having the governmetn run by those looking to cash in and move out. Bad enuf the state is run that way.
Well if that's the case we can re-elect the best mayor (after Fiorello) the city ever had:
ED KOCH
Try to read that quote with his nasal accent.
And yeah, great picture! You may not believe it but I was 14 years younger then, too! (Small world). ;-)
Just remember:
o Loal government does all the work;
o The federal government collects all the money; but
0 The state government has all the power.
And our state government stinks! How do you like paying higher taxes and fares not for services or investment, but to pay off higher debts and unfunded pension liabilities? Guess who made those decisions (and many others?) Pataki escaped judgement (again), but the least we can do is vote against the incumbents in the legislature. Or write in Daffy Duck if they are running unopposed.
1. Fiorello La Guardia-----hands down.
2. Rudy Giuliani
3. Ed Koch
4. All the rest.
The worst. John Lindsay and Abe Beame and "Dinky" Dinkins
You mean Florida's son on Good Times? He's in the projects of Chicago yelling dy-no-miiite!!!
Oh, you mean the NYC mayor. Last I heard he fled to Europe after resigning.
I thought someone would have mentioned Hylan by now!!!
Best New York mayor money could buy!
But I don't think Cheney is going to back out short of real bad health.
Cheney is good for Bush's health. There seem to be a bunch of crazies who think Bush is the heart of evil, sort of like certain right wingers though about Clinton. But none of them are going to shoot Bush while Cheney is next in line. Lesser of two evils.
Rim Shot!!!
I guess he learned it from his dad. Dan Quayle was daddy's insurance against getting shot!!!
For the hopelessly young, "Presidential Timber" was the term that was used before we learned fancy-shancy words like Gravitas.
If Cheney drops out Bush should pick Condaleeza Rice for a running mate. That's if looks don't count, of course because although she is more than qualified she certainly isn't any eye candy!!!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes
www.forgotten-ny.com
www.timesnewsweekly.com
The January 29, 2004 issue of the Queens Chronicle has on page 4 an article about the proposed renovation of the Myrtle-Wyckoff mini-complex (L to M line transfer point, and "depot" for the B26, B52, B54, Q55 and Q58 bus lines). The architect's rendering resembles the American Legion building on the south side of Fairview Avenue between Madison Street and Putnam Avenue, across Fairview Avenue from the Ridgewood library, near the Forest Avenue station on the M line. The link is :
www.queenschronicle.com
www.timesnewsweekly.com
www.queenschronicle.com
Also, Mr. Smith mentions the planned extension of the IND along Pitkin Av. past Euclid Av, but he stops short of mentioning the dreaded (aaaaaaargh!) 76 St. station!
Bob Sklar
It was part of the Triboro Plan of lines to be built by the city but operated by private transit companies. The Centre St line, the 4th Ave line in Brooklyn and the existing Lexington Ave line, as well as the Pelham and Jerome Ave lines in the Bronx were also part of it.
More info
It didn't walk up and examine it to avoid attention but from what I see it looks just like a camera, with the lens and tiny cables behind.
CAn anyone confirm this?
Example of this stuff: http://www.safetyvision.com/onboard/roadrecorder.html
Probably a test.
Isaac
til next time
It would be nice if someone can puts a little camera at the front of the coupler and stream it online though ;-)
#4136
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Four options for a direct rail link from lower Manhattan to Kennedy Airport will be unveiled this month and one will be selected in April for development, Gov. Pataki announced yesterday."
Several other media outlets reported similarly. The end of the month has passed, and as yet the four options have yet to be unveiled.
In a report dated August 26, 2003, the Regional Plan Association identified no fewer than nine options, although many of these were variations on a smaller number of basic ideas. Probably the LMDC is looking at many of those same options. (You'll find that report on www.rpa.org. Click on "Transportation," then "Lower Manhattan Transportation Needs," then "Lower Manhattan Transportation Issues.")
Whatever you think of the idea, it's doubtful Pataki would have announced it unless a report were indeed imminent. I'd imagine we'll have something in the next couple of weeks.
What you are advocating is that Airtrain should take over all of the Queensboro Bridge. The Queensboro would be overloaded, if all lanes were occupied. That's why one of the outer lanes cannot be used for vehicular traffic.
Well not ALL of the Queensboro Bride, But I suppose it could be built over one of the outer lanes.
No ALL of the Queensboro Bridge. When I said the Bridge was overloaded I meant that the structural members that support the entire bridge would enter the region of plastic deformation. They would not recover, when the load was removed. This would lead the the Bridge's ultimate collapse.
But I suppose it could be built over one of the outer lanes.
How are you going to support these tracks - with skyhooks?
That said, to put rail traffic on the QBB, car traffic would need to be curtailed, with serious knock-on effects all over Queens and Manhattan.
The bridge is considerably weaker now than it was, when heavy rail traffic last ran on the bridge some 60 years ago. Some of that weakness is as a result of the rail traffic. However, most of the problem is due to design shortcomings that have been documented since 1908, a year before the bridge was completed.
That said, to put rail traffic on the QBB,...
Is that your idea of a structural analysis?
I was pointing out that it's impractical for a whole bunch of other reasons, even if the bridge technically could handle it.
The last performance occurred 24 years ago, when 1 automobile lane was removed from the lower inner roadway and the upper level pedestrian walk was removed. It was determined at that time that the maximum live load that the bridge could take would be 9 traffic lanes. Dead load was minimized to the point of looking at the lamp mounting brackets for the lower outer roadways.
The only fictional collapse of the Queensboro that I'm aware of appeared in Not The New York Times and occurred during the Runners Marathon.
I meant Skyhooks. There was a novel about a hijacked airliner being corralled in mid-air by a Sky Hook device. I don't recall the explanation of how it worked.
As for airtrain, I still hold my position on the fact that the only place it should go to LGA with a stop at Flushing Main St station. They really should encourage MTA to run the A on the Howard Beach branch. They'd probably have to build a new loop though along the existing one, or can specially designed cars run on both?
My proposal -- build a link to the Montigue Street tunnel with a bellmouth toward Pierrepont Street under Cadman Plaze (I have a detailed proposal how to get there). A super shuttle can run on the Nassau Loop and terminate on the H tracks north of Chambers -- during all bnut rush hours the Airtrain could run though too. Pierrepont street is on a direct line to the Vietnam Memorial on Water Street -- and the bottom of the projected Second Avenue Subway. If demand warrents, a link can be made there later.
Ending LIRR service to Atlantic Terminal is not and never will be an option
Elias
Mark
I heard it on the radio, but apparently the Grand Forks Herald doesn't have a website, and the Bismarck Tribune only posts a few selected stories.
Elias
Grand Forks Herald
Mark
Elias
ROFL! How high was that woman!?
An article in Monday's Courier-Post about continuing problems with crossing gates says they want to run a similated week without serious problems before they start. Fat chance.
Channel 6
I'm going to DC with my college's politcal science department's spring break field trip. (They let me tag along to take advantage of the group hotel rate and Amtrak fare, even though I'm actually in another department.) We're arriving on the Crescent on the 13th and leaving on the 16th. I was planning to take a day trip to see the River Line on Monday the 15th, but if the new opening date sticks, I'll go up on Sunday instead and see if I can get a souvenir or something. Pictures, at least.
Previous plans called for trains every 15 minutes during peak commuting hours in the morning and afternoon and every 30 minutes at other times.
That's still the goal, Warrington said. But at first, trains will be scheduled to depart Camden and Trenton every 30 minutes throughout the day.
And here's a clause for Jersey Mike: The $600 million River Line has been decried by critics as a boondoggle...
If there's anything we've learned from "critics" in every other city in the US, is this:
If no one rides it and the ridership for hte year is 10 people, it's a bonndoggle.
If like Houston they are suffereing from overloads(before superbowl) and you can't even get on the trains, it's a boondoggle.
If the system spurs billions in development, it's a boondoggle.
–The Houston Light Rail system was described as a boondoggle by anti-transit people with an axe to grind before it opened. Thankfully it appears that they have been proven wrong–though the real criterion is ridership numbers after the system has been established for a year or so (though if I were a system manager looking at the initial numbers, I would be seeing if I could order more equipment and increase service frequency!)
–The River Line does seem to have had its share of problems, some of which were unforseen (bridge parts toppling over), and some of which seem like they are working out how to do things for the first time. I don’t know why the crossing gates are randomly lowering on cars, apparently with no trains around according to the news reports I’ve read, but I would have thought that by now there would be a standard set of engineering best practices that would prevent such problems.
I’m also a little sceptical of the route that the River Line will be taking, and whether it will manage to find the patronage it needs.
We still can’t call it a boondoggle yet: that’s an evaluation that must wait until next year.
Mark
Remember, this line is primarily intended as an alternative to I-295 for commuters to Trenton and Camden, and to a lesser extent, Philadelphia. It is not intended as a bridge between NJT and PATCO for folks travelling between NY and Philly (although people with a lot of time and not enough money will use it that way.)
Arrggggghhhhh....
My other question was, why the BSL instead of the MFL. All the buses connected to the MFL. Everyone used the MFL if they dind't take the regional rail or car. We all knew about the MFL, and even talked about the M-4's when they first came out. Psychologically, the Broad street line is impossible to get into my head that it can be linked up in the Northeast. Is the only reason because they have express tracks? I never even rode this line.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
But I agree with you completely that the Broad Street Subway stations need a lot of rehabbing.
Mark
I can't find any articles referring to this 60% business other than those on the Schuylkill Metro. I also don't see this on APTA or searching the Senate.
My guess is that they want to cut the funding on this particular project for local reasons.
I didn't think the SVM was silly, in fact, I thought it was quite forward thinking, and a refreshing break from the lowest common denominator, bare minimal 'commuter' rail systems out there. Such systms, while they may have low startup costs (though generally not), don't attract ridership, and make exceptionally poor utilization of equipment, i.e., they're very expensive for the results achived.
The DVARP's complaint about the proposed service being too frequent was assinine at best. High frequency attracts riders, and idling equipment is money wasted. Further, they could provide no evidence that diesel operations would be cheaper (and in general, they're not), and they provided no real reasons why their proposed locomotive would actually work, whereas dual modes have not in the past.
I've brought up these questions before, and believe me, they avoid answering them. likely because the answers are stupid at best.
I don't get the big need for rail to Reading anyway. Ever been there? It's a royal dump dead anyway.
Why even bother expanding SEPTA? They can barely run the current system. adding more trackage to non maintain will only make matters worse, stretch resources more, and achive little. I'd rather see efforts being turned towards getting SEPTA running at least semi decently, before system expansion.
I'd like to know where you got this from. It doesn't appear in any of their newsletters. In fact DVARP gets the credit for forcing some very practical changes in the Silverliner V design. SEPTA has a good engineering staff, but with 25 managers having to vote on everything, things get bogged down.
"he DVARP's complaint about the proposed service being too frequent was assinine at best"
DVARP is not complaining about that. Yu're taking that completely out of context. What they actually said was that extending conventional commuter rail service and improving on existing stations was far more cost-effective, and I fully agree. Te federal government finally killed off the SVM, and SEPTA had to go back to the drawing board. They are not against electrifying that route.
Of course, where SEPTA would get the money to do anything is in question...
"'ve brought up these questions before, and believe me, they avoid answering them. likely because the answers are stupid at best."
As opposed to the rank stupidity of some of the things you've posted here? Your posts are of two types: incredibly insightful, smart, and even scholarly (I love reading your stuff on electric power; wh couldn't you have been teaching physics when I was a freshman at UCLA?) and the ones bashing Amtrak and a few other topics so incredibly, blindly biased that there is no question you know you're BSing even before you write it. Happily, you do much more of the former than the latter.
So look in the mirror and clean yourself up before you go afer DVARP.
" don't get the big need for rail to Reading anyway. Ever been there? "
Yes. It's a struggling mill and factory town. But the Vanity Fair mall is pretty good and Don Nigro demonstrated that adequate rail service could bring traffic back into downtown. I was on one of those shopping trips.
"hy even bother expanding SEPTA? They can barely run the current system. adding more trackage to non maintain will only make matters worse, stretch resources more, and achive little. I'd rather see efforts being turned towards getting SEPTA running at least semi decently, before system expansion."
That's the one sensible thing you've said amid all the ignorant nonsense in this post (and shame on you for it!) SEPTA does havesome serious operationa problems they need to fix. They have some great, talented people there (I know some of them personally and like them and respect them) but SEPTA's structure and governance, and the politics involved make improvements difficult.
Kudos to DVARP for actuall making a difference. They could actually teach you something (if you stopped ranting long enough to listen, that is).
This question has serious implications. SEPTA's need for expansion is partly the result of sprawl. In my opinion it's equally important to improve the city to lure residents and businesses back into the area that is already well-served by SEPTA's existing rail and bus lines. This migh relieve some of the pressure for system expansion and help SEPTA make more effective use of what they already have.
Mark
You're blaming the hardware for the stingy operational decisions of those that fund transit. The reason there is poor service and equipment utilization is because most startup agencies lack the funding/wilpower to provide adequate service that can build ridership. Heavy rail diesel hauled commuter technology is not the issue. The issue is the 3-5 trip peak direction only service that most new systems try to pass off on their ridership. Take a look at MARC and VRE. First, there is no money for weekend service. Second, CSX gets bitchy about service on its main freight trunk lines, which it actually be well within its rights to. All service on the CSX/NS lines are peak period only and often peak direction only. This is because CSX/NS don't have the tolerance/capacity to deal with stopping local trains all day.
The key to ridership is service, not some untried technology with massive startup costs. If you provide all day service lasting till about 1am with 30 min peak headways, 60-90 min off-peak headways with a few extra peak express trains and then have 60-120 min headways on Sat/Sun you'll get the ridership. The problem is that capital money is relitivly easy to get, but operational money is extremely hard to get and there are all these taboos on transfering capital money to operations money. It really pisses me off when agencies have $$ to fix the shit that ain't broke, but are then forced to raise fares and cut service.
An extension of the R6 using commuter rail rolling stock and catenary wire makes the most sense. DVARP supports this, in fact.
Do ou get their newsletter? If you read it you'd know what they do.
Heck, Orlando spent more money on studies than an actual system would've costed. Tampa Bay comes up with plans and maps and everything to build a system, but does it yearly for 30 years. We could've had a bigger system than NY by now, all we got is a 2.2 mile trolley that has 25HP on each motor. Everything get's studied.
Wait a second, speaking of the SEPTA area, what about that Woodhaven road. How many times has that baked in the oven. For decades now I've been saying i'm going to attend the opening ceremony of that road.
How much stuff actually get's the green light after it get's included in 2025 long range plans anyway?
Their wanting to use new technology was not silly. But in a region where there are a lot of operational deficiencies, where local subway service needs expansion badly and where existing rolling stock could be used by extending commuter rail in its current form, the SVM proposal was DOA - and still is.
If you had $87 billion dollars, and the heart of Andrew Carnegie, what would you do to better our nation?
How much rail infrastructure could you build in the US also(and please don't waste it all on SAS!).
I've been curious.
Which is anybody who makes $115,000 or more a year. Hardly rich.
Anyway, back down to 115k a year, nationally people who make that kind of money don't ride transit anyway.
They do in NYC.
I'm glad you responded though, I wanted to include in there another exception.
Park and Ride lots
People who work and live in fancy places in the city(any city with a strong core).=
Then if I had some change left over I'd pick a small uniteresting city like Jackson, Mississippi where I used to live, and I'd carry out a little experiment. I'd build dense mixed used developments downtown, a rapid transit system, and again endow the schools to draw people in. The point of the experiment would be to see just how small and how sprawling a city I could turn into some place interesting and fun to live using good urban planning. In other words, to see just how capable all the things I usually call for really are by pitting them against a real challenge.
Mark
But I think you two would still have a huge surplus of money after all those projects.
Mark
: )
My school books were always outdated, too. When I was in the third grade our English book had a sample sentence from a future newspaper, reporting the launch of the first human trip to Mars. The fictional newspaper was dated 1979. The real year was 1980.
Mark
By 1964, experts say man will have established twelve colonies on the moon, ideal for family vacations. Once there, you'll weigh only a small percentage of what you weigh on Earth.
Slow down, tubby! You're not on the moon yet!
The moon belongs to America, and anxiously awaits the arrival of our astro-men. Will you be among them?
Maybe she drove to the Moon.
If you had $87 billion dollars
Eighty-seven billion dollars dollars…? How much money is that, exactly…? :-P
Also, asking what one would do to “better our nation” makes the question very non-specific to rail, which means it can diverge into education, defense, other social reforms, etc.
But if you are talking rail, then $87 billion can buy about twice the amount of HSR infrastructure and rolling stock as the US-of-A would probably need – and to help with maintenance, guess what is going to go in on the interstates…yup, toll booths…not only for raising revenue but also for slowing down those maniac tractor-trailer drivers…(Oh, there would be quite a bit left over, so just put in any dream projects here, related to rail projects in various cities.)
Yep, that's one of my wishes: Have everything that's for sale in a 99 cents store be made in America. And if I managed to make a go of it, who knows? The idea could spread. Anyway, I sure do miss seeing labels that say Made In U.S.A. Hate going shopping lately.
How to waste money through Amtrak:
- Penn Station Tunnels
- fix Metro-North New-Haven line issues
- newer rolling stock to reduce shortages
- electrification to Chicago, Montreal, and Richmond
- California electrification
- some sort electrified rail system along I-40 and I-85 corridors in Georgia, South Carolina, and North Caroina which connects with the NEC at Richmond, VA
- purchase as much track as possible from freight RRs for better passenger service
- VIA Rail gets some money for Windsor-Quebec City electrification
- bribe people at FRA to loosen standards :-P
Soo much money, it's never going to happen.
In exchange, he (or she) would get:
- A school nearby good enough to send an average number of kids to college.
- A public transportation stop good enough to get everybody downtown (or to a major shopping hub in a city without a downtown) and to an airport within 30 minutes.
If I was going to LA, I sure would let you know on this board, and call you privately about arranging the meeting place and date/time.
And for one thing, I keep my appointments when I announce them, maybe I might be a few minutes late, but I sure will not hold you up until 12 Noon.
Subtalkers, it appears they had a mix up as to time of the trip.
Some of us have to WORK for a living!! We like roofs over our head and food on the table....etc.
Sea Beach Fred is a school teacher...and works weekdays.
I am a transit driver and work weekdays.
I'm sure George has a weekday job too.
So don't get excited.
Congratulations!!!
Mistakes get made. Get over it.
Surfliner was standing room only....in BOTH directions!!
Yet the Metrolink train that followed us home had plenty of seats.
Besides, the Surflienr cars are a hell of a lot more comfortable.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
If you cats had used cell phones, you would have found eachother.
did you guys think to use cell phones at the station?
you can see the whole trackbed area.... but can you see people standing
in a platform vestibule?
This matter is ancient history. It's over. It happened. It cannotbe undone. Humanbeings made a mistke.
B.F.D.!!!~
Grow up and give this subject up.
I think the problem is that you and they got the time mixed up. In your post, you say that 10:30 AM was the agreed upon time. However, if you check the thread about the "Fred and Bob show hits LA", you will see that under your own post, you were supposed to be at the station at 10 AM, and not 10:30. I don't know if you guys made subsequent plans or not, and since I wasn't involved in the arrangements at your end, I have no idea who was at fault. I am just trying to set the record straight as to why nobody was there at 10:30.
I still hope to get to meet you in the near future. I really admire your work.
1) How well connected is Madison to transit?
a)NJT bus services around Madison, if any?
b)Non-NJT public transportation, if any?
C)Paratransit/ taxis/airport limos etc.?
d)Time between trains? Transit level of service?
2)Ridership levels over time: how have they changed?
3) Has NJT invested in Madison? If so, in what way?
a) Does the town have any active relations or partnerships with
NJT?
4) Has NJT gauged customer feelings in any meaningful way, especially
relevant to Madison or relevent to the line(s) on which it stands?
a) Polls?
b) Surveys?
c) Analysis of customer complaints?
d) Other?
5) Firsthand data gathering could also be useful (such as analysis of
pedestrian traffic in vicinity of Madison station, etc. Downside is that
we'd need a map of vicinity, and don't expect to catch the whole route of
everyone. I've put dots on maps to represent pedestrian routes in general
before, in Hudson River Park in Manhattan, so I know what I'm talking
about.)
6) insert your own questions here :-)
Thanx!
-Richard R. :)
It was a work train.
Trevor
Jersey Mike could probably outline a reasoble way to reconfigure the Jamaica station approaches so trains could move faster. Mike, would you like to chime in here?
There are two sides here. The north side is for Penn/HP/LIC trains that will continue on main line to OB, HEM, PJ, KO, and Montauk via. Hicksville. These trains will use Tracks 1-4 (assuming that all 8 tracks are available for use.) All Montauk trains will no longer use Babylon branch, they will stay on main line to Divide then KO to Babylon.
South side (Tracks 5-8) will have Flatbush trains going to Babylon, LB, and FR. So, Hempstead will use Penn istead of Flatbush, while Long Beach, and Babylon will get Flatbush. However, because of heavy traffic along the Babylon Branch, most peak trains will use Penn instead of Flatbush.
Biggest plus is that trains will not have to cross over, such as a Penn train going to Long Beach that is competing with a Hempstead train from Flatbush will not have this problem with my suggested track and route usage.
And what do we do with the westbound trains if all tracks are taken up by eastbound trains??
http://tube.tfl.gov.uk/content/pressreleases/0402/02.asp
I read the Word document version of the full report and was very impressed with the detail. The only element that was missing, was a diagram of the track layout at the derailment site, which would have helped with the visualization of the incident.
wayne
I recall noticing that on some of the older currently-running cars (R32? R38?), adjacent non-meeting door leaves seem to be linked. If a door leaf hits an obstruction and stops, its buddy leaf at the other side of the seats and window will also stop. The leaf that it meets with isn't affected.
What's going on here? Do the doors share a motor? Is there a really long linkage connecting the two leaves?
Mark
There is. It runs under the bench seat. The R40's and 42's have it, too.
You mean meeting panels latching against one another?
Mark
That also explains why there's so much less under-seat bulk beginning with the R44s. I always suspected something important must be in there. Resistance heaters don't take up that much space, and it's not like resistance technology had improved significantly by the 1970s.
Door operation as I understand it was explained by Joe Korman in this nyc.transit post. Does that same description apply to the under-seat and in-wall operators?
My understanding of the newest cars is that they use overhead worm drives. How does this system preserve pushback, or does it not?
Mark
Pushback is dead! None of the cars in the current fleet will
allow the door to be pushed back. Pushback was required with
the older door mechanisms because they were not precise enough
in sensing panel position. They could give indication and
still have a purse strap wedged in the door...pushback allowed
the passenger to remove it in a hurry.
I'm not asking what this "S" means, I'm asking why it was chosen, as opposed to any other letter.
David
APPROACH AT ALLOWABLE SPEED THEN CONTINUE ON MAIN ROUTE
It doesn't mean "speed". We usually take it to mean "straight", as opposed to the same signal with an illuminated D, which means "diverge".
And as for "D" meaning "diverge," it certainly does (well, "diverging route," anyway), but most time signals don't have a "D" aspect.
David
I'd love to do what you want, and I will -as soon as they get rid of the penalty when I hit the damned signal that doesn't clear at the allowable speed. There are just too many places where the signals don't clear at the posted speed, and Bulletin 60-03 notwithstanding, I don't want to visit the friendly folk at Labor Relations.
I got a question:
Why do t/o's travel slow even after a timer has cleared?
Ex: CPW express S/B from 145th to 125th. All signals are green, but T/o's keep trains around 18mph well after timer clears.
Yes, but there's a huge gap between these timers.
Also, they permit much faster speeds than those actually performed.
wayne
I've got three years in and have always operated this way and have had no incidents or problems.
I've got three years in and have always operated this way and have had no incidents or problems.
The use of "D" aspects doesn't show up until the late 1960s.
It was part of some new thinking in the signal department. About
this time aspects such as illuminated "20" or "15" began to be
used on new contracts as well.
Ain't got old rulebooks to go by, but that's what I *think* I remember ...
David
But like I've said before, I'm real hazy on the RULES of the railroad (aside from this, I'm SURE I can still pass the signal test, heh) after all these years, but the IND had an abundant supply of "S" ... ideal operating mode though was to hold it back and watch the "S" die, although the witch wouldn't clear to green for ya (wonder if there was ever a bulb in that head?) if the "S" extinguished, your musical pitch was just right and you could expect either a yellow or another one of the "gauntlet candle 'S' lit" ... but IND had no compunctions about throwing reds at ya, it was DESIGNED to do that. They'd clear if you had any brains, OR a pulse. :)
Mystery solved on the "D" (forgot about that - Alex was RIGHT, duh.) here:
http://www.nycsubway.org/tech/signals/timesig.html
It IS "stop here if you don't expect to diverge" ... like I said, been a LONG time, many many other "careers" under the wings since I *had* to know this stuff. Wowsers - I've forgotten *SO* much - but at the same time, after a trip to Branford a year or so ago operate once again after a 2001 jaunt with an R143 on MTA property, I've also realized that the "rules and meanings" can fade away to meat-rom dust, but actually operating a train is like riding a bicycle ... Once you're done schoolcar, you never forget how to run a train. That at least is something I hadn't forgotten how to do - SAFELY. :)
The newer signal sytems also use it for grade time, such as Queens Plaza Manhattan bound express. If you see one shot red w/number instead of two-shot yellow w/S, then watch out for the blind trips. This means not that someone is in fron of you, but the route is established for the V to cross over beyond the station. Most of the time, it starts off as one-shot, but turns into two-shot by the time you enter the station.
On the West End, heading up towards Bay 50, the red/20 is displayed at the same time as the yellow/S before it. That is one of the newest systems installed, so I guess they will use both two-shot and one-shot at the same time, in case you do pass the yellow too fast.
ST is any conditional cutback of the signal's control line.
GT is always in effect.
The R/20 displayed after the Y/S at Bay 50, is a result of that same artifact Jeff H described on another branch of this thread.
The R/20 is a two-shot GT and one-shot ST signal. With no train ahead the signal is red, waiting for the first or second shot timer to run. The 20 is displayed since the conditions for the signal to clear on station time are met and the signal is still red because the GT hasn't run. In this case it is likely that the 2nd GT shot and the 1st ST shot are in fact the same timer.
Modifying the circuits so the the 20 lights only for ST, would add unnecessary complication and expense. At any rate, If the TO blows the 1st shot, and is approaching a R/20 signal timing the 2nd shot, the signal is not "lying" by displaying the 20. It just may clear in less time if for example the GT speed was 25 or 30mph.
Cming south from 7 Ave to Prospect Park, you encounter the following;
GT 40, Y auto, R/R, ST 20, R auto, R/20 repeater, R/20 auto, G auto.
The R/R clears to Y/G/S at about 40, the first R auto clears to Y/S at about 40 (most times - sometime, neither clears correctly). So now you're doing 40 - the posted limit - witha Y/S in front of you... that doesn't clear! Pull madly on the brake and hope everything works.
OR
when R/R clears, begin slowing down, pass first auto at 22 and you can get the R/20 to clear at 15 when you get to the repeater. Wrap it back up into the station.
Since the posted limit is 40 for the GT two-shot, why does that last red clear so slow? Ther's nothing in front of me, the nearest switch is 1000' away (with two autos and a homeball in the way).
The ST number is only lit because the signal is red with the control line clear. It conveys absolutely ZERO information about what speed is required to clear the signal on GT.
There are no circuits to light the number based on a train missing the 1st shot.
There is a funny artifact arising from the way these illuminated
station time numerals are wired. You may notice that when an
approach signal or home signal that has one of these numerals
was being held back by the tower and is then put reverse, with
the track ahead being clear, that the numeral will light momentarily,
then the signal will clear from red to yellow or green.
This corresponds with the stop arm driving time.
:-)
There could be jackets and hats: "Signal Station Time Lighting Clarification Project" with a picture of a R/20 head and a ? with a circle slash over it.
But I digress.
Does it have to be vital? Let's ask Stephen Baumann.
I can think a way to fix this without adding a relay:
Get rid of the HST relay and, for that matter, the illuminated
numeral. After all, the IND did station time for years without
an extra aspect. What's wrong with that "T" sign? Maybe a small
sign beneath reading "Please feel free to creep up"
"Limited offer! This Signal Only! Some Restricting Speed Applies!"
"Go directly over the IJ, Do not stop, Do not collect 200 seconds (of delay)"
B etter
O ff
S omewhere
E lse
You're right that timers are checked to be de-energized and "wound-down" but the contact is elsewhere. A signal will not clear at all if by clearing it would allow entrance into a section that has a stuck timer.
"An S signal is a signal bearing a letter S used in conjunction
with a block or home signal which, when illuminated, indicates
that the next Grade Time beyond may be cleared by an approaching
train operating at a predetermined speed. This signal is used
on the IND division only."
The same rulebook notes that a LUNAR WHITE LIGHT...is used
on the BMT division only.
An October 1944 revisions page adds
"A D signal is a signal bearing a letter D used in conectoin
with a Block or Home signal which, when illuminated, indicates
a diverging route, and that the next Grade Time Signal beyond, may
be cleared by an approaching train operating at a pre-determined
speed. This signal is used on the IND division only."
In March 1948, the lunar white rule was ammended"
"AN AUXILIARY WHITE LIGHT.....is used on the IRT division and
BMT division only"
Do you have any BMT rulebooks that give their explanation of
time signals?
Becuase the TA is so strict about trailing points, it conversely plays fast and loose with facing points. You could be hauling @$$ twoards a red homeball protecting facing point and have it go over, and that's completely ok and protected by design. [and that's with no pissant wheel detectors either!]
But like I said also, I've been wrong before so it wouldn't be news - but I swear I remember being told to NEVER pass a "D" unless you expected to diverge or you'd be stuck with it. Only exception I remember to that rule was northbound into 59th from 7th Avenue. There, it was common to be sent to the wrong track due to "congestion" and you were expected to ACCEPT a wrong lineup "for the good of the service." :)
Elaborate please? Do you mean because approach signal levers
don't lock facing point switches?
Exactly. You are fully protected because the collary is ALWAYS true= All signals lock trailing points in their overlap.
If you pass the "D" signal and that also happens to be the approach
signal then the tower would have to run time before the lineup
could be changed.
The BMT did use a "lunar white" for the same purpose. Using a letter has the advantage of being able to use different letters for variation of meaning; specifically, "S" is all purpose, but "D" means the same thing when there is an interlocking situation and "D" represents timing on a diverging route.
Forget about timers and lunar for a second. I've got a more generalized signal philosophy question. (Yup, another one from the bag of ponderous but unasked questions.)
If a route has been set, why not let the bottom head show it even if the top head is showing STOP? Is there something fundamentally wrong with a signal saying "I'm not clear now, but when I do clear, I'll clear to the diverging route," R/Y?
The best reason I've been able to come up with is that old-style IRT home signals (each route gets its own head) can't convey such information, and the use of R/R there infiltrated the new style of home signalling.
The second-best reason I've come up with is that in signalling, "if it's not all red, it's not red at all." That's really only a half-justification, though, because NYCTA (and the BoT before them, and the operating companies before them) could have come up with virtually any rule, and if they decided that R/G and R/Y would mean STOP AND STAY the same as R/R while conveying route information, it would have been so. It's not like they had to maintain compatibility with any other signalling standards. At best, general practice served only as guidelines, and the "if it's not all red" rule was more of a mnemonic from roads where the R/G and R/Y aspects would have meant something different anyway.
It seems to me that if a route has been set, there can only be advantages to lighting the homeball before the (automatic, timer, whatever) clears. I don't see the drawbacks.
Mark
You are correct that the combination of routing and slotting
is descended (ca 1914) from the older aspect system of R/G, G/R etc.
It was the BRT which invented this aspect system, not the BOT/IND,
and they did so in anticipation of the dual contracts which
included the first extensive subway running for the BRT (I am
ignoring the Centre St subway which had opened a few years earlier)
Allegedly this new aspect system would be easier to understand and
work better with color light signals (the older IRT subway signals
were essentially compact semaphores). In retrospect I think the
aspect system was a big mistake, one which the IND ripped off.
Since at the time the BRT was using standard ARA aspects for
interlocking signals on the elevated (what would later be called
"IRT aspects" by railfans), it would have been extremely confusing
to have R/G mean Diverging Clear on the elevated but "Stop and
expect a straight route" on the subway.
What do you suppose would have been a better choice at the time (and why?) The old IRT (what you called then-standard ARA) aspects?
The original IRT heads used colored lenses in front of a single light source, correct?
Since at the time the BRT was using standard ARA aspects for
interlocking signals on the elevated (what would later be called
"IRT aspects" by railfans), it would have been extremely confusing
to have R/G mean Diverging Clear on the elevated but "Stop and
expect a straight route" on the subway.
Indeed it would have. I hadn't considered that the "conversion" didn't take place overnight.
Mark
The subway signals used prior to the dual contracts on the IRT
are compact semaphores. Instead of a rotating blade, the operating
mechanism was vertical and operated by a pneumatic piston.
This placed one of two colored roundels in front of a bulb in the
upper portion of the head, the light from which was focused by
a clear lens, while in the lower portion one of two
reflective targets were displayed corresponding to semaphore
blade positions (i.e. a horizontal bar or a diagonal bar).
The IRT used 2-aspect lower quadrant semaphores on the el (which
they took over in 1901) and this was a continuation of that practice.
A typical automatic block signal had two heads. The top was
HOME and the bottom DISTANT. The bottom head was also mounted
in front of the plane of the upper head to create a riser for the
operating rod, thus creating an assembly with two lenses and
two targets that sat on top of a signal case.
There is not too much information about these pneumatic semaphores
as they evidently got rid of them quickly once color light
signals were adopted. Some of the heads were recycled as
color-light heads. The lens of the top half was given a green
lens the target was replaced by a red lens assembly with bulb,
the lens of the lower half became yellow and the lower target
was covered over by a number plate. One of these signals survived
into the 1990s at 5 Ave on the Flushing line.
Signal 121C (the signal described above) survived for a couple of years into this decade as well.
That has always been cited as a reason why the BMT aspect system
is easier to understand. However, I could turn around the
"dim or obscured" argument you made in favor of the "IRT" system.
With the BMT system, it is possible to mis-read a Y/G as a G
automatic if the top head is out or obscured. By the time you
realized this, it might not be possible to reduce speed quickly
enough to avoiding tripping on the next signal at danger.
>One thing I think would be a good idea is elimination the
> bottom head on home signals that only protect trailing points,
> or are used as holdout signals
This was standard practice on the IRT. What distinguished an
interlocking signal from an automatic was the presence of a red
number plate with white lettering, bearing the letter "X" and
the controlling lever number (of course always with an L or R
since the IRT was a US&S customer).
heavy drinkers.
I have a print which shows 2-shot GT implemented with 3-position AC line relays. So chalk one up for the BMT.
The lit "S" was a B of T invention for sure.
Could it be to distinguish it from the 2 train order lights?
This is done so that any aspect color is distinguishable from
the bare bulb color. In the event that the colored lens is broken
out for some reason, it prevents mis-reading the signal.
Some of the "S" stencil aspects coming into Queens Plaza now look more bluish-white, so perhaps they are beginning to use LED's as backlights for existing time aspects as well. (The new LED's installed elsewhere are bare diodes arrayed as an "S" or number; rather than a backlit stencil.)
A *long* time ago -- so long ago, it was on an R1/9 on a D train -- the motorman told me it meant "series" signal. Series, I suppose, as in multiple blocks as opposed to single-block timed signals (which at that time I had only noticed on the BMT).
Michael Wares
David
David
David
The indication is "approach at allowable speed"
There is no definition of the what the "S" stands for.
Also to clarify: the signal displaying Y/S is NOT A GRADE TIME SIGNAL, the NEXT signal is a GT which causes its predecessor to display Y/S.
The normal state of any GT signal can only be red.
Thanks,
Julian
There's pictures of all the New Tech test trains.
Unless you want pics of the R110b in a deteriorated state. They are stored OOS and will never be used in revenue again. They were test trains, not revenue equipment.
When the G runs 6-car R-46s/8-car R-32's again, the V is extended to Brooklyn, the C to Lefferts, and all A's run to Howard Beach/the Rockaways, THEN they can say that "they are no longer needed". Until then, no such nonsense...
While that's true, last night crews were in the process of removing the R-110B conductor boards from the A and D lines... doesn't look like a good sign.
I looked at those already. Only 16 images... =( Then again, that's better than nothing. I personally like the photos at http://www.nycrail.com better (those were recently taken in the yard).
They are stored OOS and will never be used in revenue again.
Then why bother to keep them? Why not sell it back to Bombardier, or rebuild it and put it back on the (A), or cheaper, the (C)?
-Julian
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album34?page=2
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album34?page=3
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album34?page=4
Sorry that I haven't captioned them as such yet, which would have enabled you to search my site for them.
Good one. Those trams in Germany are nicer than what we have in NJ. It's too bad I can't read the German website or any of the postings
For pics (text in german):
http://mitglied.lycos.de/dfstrab/f/f.htm
http://mitglied.lycos.de/dfstrab/w/w.htm
Boy, this seems mad dangerous, depending on alertness (even German alertness) rather than automatic interlocking and trippers. Although I'm not surprised by anything on a streetcar after I saw the T/O in Daly City on the SF Muni use a pole to move his switch.
If never seen the F7 in use and i don't know the exact rules for it.
It's something like the key-by-order of the subway
Mark
Besides throwing switches, they're also useful as rerailing tools. Got an axle off on girder rail? Stick a couple of switch irons under the wheel, and back up slowly. The wheel will follow the switch iron and actually go back on the rail head.
They can be used to clean the flangeway on girder rail.
They can also be used to subdue unruly passengers, but we won't go there.
The map also clearly states that only lines with route changes are shown on the poster, and that the other lines have been left off.
So why was the R included? Just for completeness in showing the entire southern BMT? That seems poor justification for giving a false impression in what will surely be a confusing time.
No more short-turns at Whitehall either.
They say the R will recieve extra service but we'll see whether the Rarely loses its infamous moniker ;-).
So far I've seen:
English/Spanish
English/Chinese
English/Russian
I have the Spanish and the Russian version.
Question - do the cars carry each interior route/station list sign, or does the change have to be made in the yard or terminal?
I'm not an everyday #2 rider, so any answer would be appreciated.
Is there a program for the 2 to Dyre?
http://www.mta.info/alert/alertmnr.htm
CG
They're just getting more realistic.
This morning seemed good. On my outbound journey, it looked like inbound trains were originating on time, which they haven't for a while.
The snow isn't light and fluffy any more either after yesterday's thaw, which will help.
"The party car was up and running-- for dozens of Web freaks, hackers, geeks and others like them--- a time and place to meet, mingle, act up, wind down, express themselves, dangle from poles, rage against the machine or do none of that, anonymously, anarchically, all in he cramped,swaying confines of a subway car hurtling underneath this stridently counterculture city...."
If that whets your appetite here's the link to the article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/29/national/29BART.html
LED Binary Clock
I got intrigued with what the display would look like as time passes. Anyway, I spent a couple of hours trying to find this thing locally, and ended up buying it from ThinkGeek.com on the internet. Then I frittered away the day today waiting for the package to come. It's really neat.
For more info and a link to a free downloadable version check out the manufacturer's website:
http://www.anelace.com/index.html
I wonder if it could be miniaturized into a watch or a much larger clock?
Were you able to download the desktop version?
No, didn't download - requires scripting and flash which is a no-no security wise here - will see about getting it on one of our lab rats later since those are designed to get infected. :)
...but like any good anti-SUV guy, John can find a way to blame his friend's negligence on an inanimate object.
At least it wasn't one of his usual tall women don't like short guys who ride public transit posts...
There's no reason to be fourth in line in a pileup, other than driving with head up ass.
Actually if you go back on some of the News 12 LI forum's old posts you'll see he has mentioned how his height hinders his social life.
That's our little John from Wesbury for ya. :-)
http://www.citizenet.com/news/articles/101002/education2.shtml
"Ben and Ryan, best friends since first grade, dashed toward the Steeplechase — the first of four stations where they learned about different aspects of horses and their care. Other stations dealt with horse breeds, stables, care and transportation.
At the Steeplechase station, Middleburg horse owner and trainer Don Yovanovich detailed the sport's history.
"Two men were riding their horses home in Ireland and were arguing over whose horse was the fastest. They raced between two church steeples," he explained."
If you need more information, I'm pretty sure that Jeff Rosen could help you out. I think Steeplechase Station is one of his passions.
**********************************************************************
Welcome to the New Year and (finally) more fun and games on the
high iron. The holidays were busy and full of good times for the beautiful
bride and I while simultaneously being chaotic and hectic. Despite it
all though, a good time was had. Here's hoping that yours were full of
the good times and lacking that of the aggravation.
The changing of the calendar has also brought about yet another change
in job assignments for me as well. I have returned to the road working
train 336 between Glenn Yard and Champaign, laying over and then coming
back the next day on train 331. So once again I am back to being gone
a lot.
I know I am really tardy in getting this one out, but I have been extremely
busy as of late. Hopefully we will be getting on track again and producing
these little columns again on a regular basis. I would like to thank all
of you that took the time to inquire though. Some of you were concerned
that I tossed you off the list or that perhaps I had taken ill. Fortunately
it was neither, just too much to do in too little time. And now, on with
the show.
The theme of today's topic sounds like the title to an old Chambers Brothers
song from some thirty-five or so years ago. Trust me though while dealing
with time, this lesson won't be of a musical nature. Instead, we will
deal with the timetable. And as a special bonus visual aids are being
included to assist us with today's lesson. The fine folks at RAILROAD.NET
have again offered their outstanding website to assist me with today's
presentation. Be sure to take a look around their site when you get a
chance as they have done quite a fine job with it.
Throughout the years there have been two types of timetables used by
the rail industry, employee and public. Public timetables are the ones
published for the general public that advertise the schedules for passenger
trains. From this comes the term "On the advertised" when making a note
of actual arrival times of trains at scheduled stops. If the train is
on time according to its timetable schedule, it is on the time advertised.
Public timetables might also include a list of services offered on the
trains, at the stations and oftentimes, a summary of fares. Today in North
America, most public timetables are those showing the services provided
by Amtrak, VIA and commuter railroads. There are still a handful of private
sector inter-city passenger railroads in operation and you can find their
timeta bles out there. Ontario Northland and Algoma Central are two railroads
that still operate independently of a federal railroad passenger corporation.
You can view their timetables at http://www.agawacanyontourtrain.com/fs_passengerservice.html
for the Algoma Central or http://www.northlander.ca/
for Ontario Northland services. And of course, you may go to www.Amtrak.com
or www.viarail.com to view schedules
and gather information of North America's two passenger major passenger
carriers.
In today's high tech world, public timetables can easily be downloaded
and printed out using a computer. Hard copies are still printed up and
made available at train stations and also through travel agencies. On
some railroads timetables were called timecards as opposed to timetables.
This could possibly be the result of them being printed on a card stock
type of paper. Hence the phrase "carded X number of passenger trains"
was derived from either the paper used to make the timetables or the name
timecard, or perhaps both.
Now the employee timetable is a totally different creature altogether.
These are published "For the government of railroad employees only" to
borrow a quote from the industry. The employee timetable would be the
instruction manual that supports the rulebook. It contains vital information
and instructions used to govern the operation of trains and engines on
a specific portion of track, across a railroad division or even across
an entire railroad system.
The employee timetable governs various aspects of the operation of trains
and engines. Included in the employee timetable (ETT) are speed limits
and restrictions for trains and engines, train schedules, special instructions
and changes or amendments to any operating rules. They also include instructions
peculiar to specific portions of a railroad. For many years, a timetable
schedule of a train was its authority to occupy and proceed on a main
track. In the past twenty years or so, most railroads have departed from
this method. Timetable schedules are merely for information to the train
crews. More often than not in today's timetables, a disclaimer is included
on the page that shows schedule times stating "Time shown is for information
only and does not convey any authority."
There is a varying array of philosophies when it comes to the employee
timetable. Some railroads use multiple timetables to govern their property.
In the first thirteen years of their existence, Conrail subscribed to
a regional format. Conrail divided their railroad into regions such as
the Northern, Northeastern Atlantic, Western and Southern. Within these
regions were divisions. As an example, in 1980 the Western Region of Conrail
was comprised of four divisions; Chicago, Cleveland, Toledo and Fort Wayne.
As Conrail evolved, the divisions within each region were modified and
in some cases, eliminated through reorganization within the company. Mergers
of divisions and regions within the system occurred as Conrail downsized
itself over the years. Eventually, Conrail reorganized its structure completely
and eliminated regions altogether. Newly created divisions consolidated
smaller divisions within a region into the new structure. This reorganization
reduced some of the management employees required to operate the company.
That seemingly age old quote of "Reducing the layers of management" was
stated as a reason for the restructuring.
So Conrail in their region days used regional timetables. After the reorganization
they went to a divisional format. Many other roads have used a divisional
format as well. Norfolk Southern predecessors Southern and Norfolk &
Western used the divisional format and NS has kept that philosophy since
the two roads were merged. With the inclusion of the 58% of Conrail they
obtained in 1999, NS has continued with the divisional format. The division
timetable contains all the information relevant to that particular division
with regards to all the previously mentioned aspects. They will also include
any special instructions that apply system wide as well.
Being that some railroads have a great deal of special instructions peculiar
only to a specific portion of the railroad, their philosophy is to only
keep that information readily available to the employees that operate
on that particular division. The theory is that a division timetable keeps
the total size of the timetable down to one that is manageable, one that
makes it easier to carry in your grip. Now just remember though, this
is a theory.
Another ETT format is the system variety. Some railroads like MoPac and
Union Pacific, (prior into their merging into the mega-goliath they are
today) used a system format. Both railroads used regional, district or
division formats prior to their adopting a system format. The Santa Fe
also went to a system format after years of using a divisional format.
Since merging into the monsters they are today, BNSF and UP have returned
to the division type format. UP goes by the name of service units for
their divisions though. Obviously somebody took the education their diploma
indicates they received and put it to good use by coining this new millennium
type term to replace the division name. However, a division by any other
name though would still be a division.
And there have been different philosophies regarding the overall format
of the employee timetable with regard to how it is assembled. For years
railroads used a booklet type of format with a card stock type of cover.
These were usually staple or perfect bound and came in two popular sizes;
pocket or magazine. The pocket style is narrow in width and fits quite
easily into your back pocket. The magazine style is usually an 8x11 size
that can only fit into your pocket if you fold it in half.
In the 1970's a new format of ETT was created, the binder style. There
were a couple of varieties of this with one being the ring binder and
the other a post binder. Several eastern began using the binder format
including Penn Central and Erie Lackawanna. With the binder format, the
philosophy was that instead of printing an entire new timetable, just
the pages that required revisions could be changed. Any and all revisions
and changes were printed on new pages and the now obsolete pages were
simply removed being replaced with the revision pages. While the initial
cost of implementing the binder format was a little more costly, the overall
cost was reduced as only what needed to be changed was changed.
Penn Central was probably one of the first to make extensive use of the
revision pages. Being that PC was essentially falling apart in the early
70's, numerous speed restrictions were being placed into effect. Yellow
revision pages that carried all of the speed restrictions and any other
type of restrictions were used and added to the timetable.
Today, most railroads have embraced the binder format. In addition to
the timetable and special instructions, operating, air brake and train
handling and safety rulebooks have been added to the binder so you now
have a one stop operating manual. Exceptions to this are CSX and UP. While
they have the various rulebooks in a binder, the timetable and special
instructions are in separate magazine style books that do not fit into
any kind of binder.
Some roads though, use a spiral bound timetable. Kansas City Southern
and Canadian Pacific have such ETT's. They have card stock covers with
spiral bindings. The pages in such timetables cannot be changed out.
And since merging into the massive beast it has become, UP seems to have
taken a step backwards with their timetables. Today's UP ETT's appear
as if they were created by a junior high school kid working at his PC
after completing his homework. Yes, it looks cheap and quickly done. Quite
the dummying down of what once was one of the better ETT's.
So now let us begin our tour of the employee timetable and how it works.
My plan is to eventually do several columns dealing with the timetable.
This one will describe a very user friendly timetable. It is my intention
to look at a couple of others in future columns to compare several philosophies
on timetable structure. There is far too much information to present it
all in one column.
You can follow along by clicking onto the first link http://www.railroad.net/santucci/tt13.jpg.
This photo shows us the cover of Missouri Pacific system employee timetable
number 13, dated June 15, 1979. Every ETT contains a timetable number.
Whenever a new timetable is issued, it will have a new number. This number
may be either the next number in sequence or a new series of numbers,
usually beginning with the number 1. In this case, timetable number 13
succeeded number 12. The date on each timetable also includes an effective
time, in this case 1201 a.m. It is of extreme importance that a date and
time effective are included with a timetable. The rules state "A timetable
is in effect from the moment it takes effect." While this statement may
sound redundant, it means exactly what it says. In this case, timetable
13 takes effect at 1201 a.m. on the morning of June 15, 1979. Until that
moment, timetable number 12 is in effect. Once timetable 13 takes effect,
timetable 12 immediately becomes useless and cannot be used under any
circumstances.
You'll observe the term "Central Standard Time except Mountain Standard
Time on Horace Subdivision." While most of the MoPac was operated in the
Central Time Zone, the Horace Sub, of which all but sixteen miles were
operated in Colorado, was located in and operated under the Mountain Time
zone. To compensate for this one hour difference and have the timetable
take effect system wide at the same hour, the notation about Mountain
Time was required. This means it went into effect at 1201 am everywhere
on the system, but just not at the exact same moment system wide.
With the moment the new timetable takes effect, any and all scheduled
trains must now assume the schedule of the new timetable. In some cases,
their schedule may be changed or even eliminated with the new timetable.
Under such circumstances, train orders would be issued to such trains
in the hours in advance of the new timetable actually taking effect to
authorize them to operate as an extra train. If an order was not issued
and there was no schedule for them in the new timetable, that train would
be required to be in the clear of the main track by the moment the new
timetable took effect or provide flag protection as they no longer carried
any authority to occupy the main track.
Notice the word "System" above the timetable number. This tells the employees
that this timetable covers the entire MoPac system and not just a division.
Had it been issued for only a specific portion of the system, there would
be the name of a division or region (or both) instead of the word system.
Before MoPac adopted the system format for timetables, they would state
what region and then the divisions and subsidiary companies within that
region were governed by the new timetable.
Then there is the notations of "For the government of employees concerned"
and also "The Railroad Company Reserves the Right to Vary Therefrom as
Circumstances May Require." The first quote is pretty obvious and for
those of us veterans of the industry, we fully understand that second
quote as meaning, "Do as I say, not as I tell you."
At the bottom is a list of some of the senior officers of the carrier.
MoPac, when adopting the system format for their ETT's in 1969, opted
to go with a plastic coated paper cover instead of the more common card
stock cover. The plastic coated cover tended to hold up much better. This
format and numbering system lasted for twenty-three timetables and into
the MoPac/UP merger in December 1982. With the initial issue of system
timetable #1, the MoPac buzz saw emblem adorned the cover. When the screaming
eagle emblem was adopted, it was then used. After the UP took over, the
MoPac name was retained but the UP shield replaced the screaming eagle.
Also, the names of subsidiary companies owned by MoPac were included
on the cover. Names like Chicago & Eastern Illinois, Texas & Pacific,
Kansas, Oklahoma & Gulf and Missouri & Illinois appeared under
the "Mi ssouri Pacific Railroad Co." name. As these components were fully
merged into MoPac over the years, their names disappeared from the timetable
cover.
Clicking onto http://www.railroad.net/santucci/tt13-9.jpg
brings us to the division officer page and also the table of contents.
The divisions are listed as part of the different regions and the officers
that headed up those regions and divisions are listed. On the table of
contents page, you can see the organization of the divisions within each
region, then the alphabetical listing of each subdivision. You'll notice
that some subdivisions retain the name of their original railroad. The
Midland Valley, NO&LC (New Orleans & Lowe r Coast) and TNM (Texas
& New Mexico) were just three individual railroads or parts of railroads
that the MoPac took control of over the years and eventually fully merged
into the system.
Click http://www.railroad.net/santucci/tt13-2.jpg.
These pages are the station and special instruction pages for the Chicago
and Pana Subdivisions. You'll notice the subdivision names as well as
the Chicago and Illinois Division names. MoPac arranged their timetables
in division order. All of the subdivisions of each division were grouped
together with the higher priority lines listed first followed by the branch
and secondary lines. The Chicago Division was unique in that it was comprised
of only one subdivision, the Chicago Sub. All other divisions on the MoPac
had multiple subdivisions.
On page 2 in the subdivision special instructions are the listing of
speed limits and restrictions for the Chicago Sub and a portion of the
Pana Sub. The speed limits and restrictions are indicated by two sets
of numbers separated by a dash. For example, MP 153-17.This indicates
milepost 153, pole 17. At one time most railroads had a pole line parallel
to their right of ways. These were telephone poles that carried communication
lines. The pole line included signal, telephone, block or track phone,
yard phone lines and back in the day, telegraph lines. Those phones known
as the block or track phone was the Dispatcher line. You picked up the
phone and listened to make certain nobody was talking, pressed the button
on the handset and stated your location. If you were at Glover (GLUH-vur),
you would just say "Glover" and then wait. When the Dispatcher was free
to speak with you he would respond "Glov er" and you then proceeded to
identify yourself, your train and then state your business. The yard line
was a similar communication system but this line only connected the towers
and freight agencies. The Dispatcher had no link to this line. And being
that as the case, some interesting conversations were had pertaining to
some of the Dispatchers.
The amount of poles per mile varied, usually between 40 and 50. A few
miles might have 52 while others might only have 48. In same cases, the
line was only around 40 poles, stretching to 42 or 43 in some miles. These
poles were used in designating the exact geographic location of switches,
the beginning and end of speed restrictions or speed limits, the beginning
and end of train order protection for on track workers and also stations.
To make it easier on train crews, every tenth pole had a stripe on it
that corresponded to its count. The tenth pole in the mile had a single
stripe; the twentieth pole had two stripes, the thirtieth three and so
on. This was so we didn't have to count every single pole per mile when
it came to dealing with speed restrictions and the like. Today most of
the pole lines are long gone and tenths of miles are used in their place
as location designators. Some railroads g o all out and give you quarter
and half mile markers as well as the mileposts in each mile; some, but
not all.
Included on the subdivision special instruction page are locations of
yard limits, the number of main tracks and their designations, signal
systems in service as well as other operating requirements that may be
in effect. There is also a list of locations not listed on the station
page that are significant. MoPac showed these as "Business Tracks." These
would normally be locations of industries, team tracks and the like. You'll
also notice the Cissna Park Industrial Track and information about it.
While not a main track, it was necessary to mention this track as it was
more than just a spur or business track.
Hot Box and Dragging Equipment detector locations are noted. It was very
important to know the exact location of the detectors for braking purposes.
It was always recommended to avoid excessive or prolonged air braking
when operating over the detectors. You also wanted to avoid stopping on
the detectors whenever possible. Detectors are covered quite extensively
as to the signals displayed on them and what was required when a train
was stopped by them.
The MoPac used route signals that informed you of what you're routing
would be as opposed to speed signals that tell you exactly how fast or
slow to proceed. Information about the speed through switches and what
type of switches were in service such as remote controlled power switches
or spring switches was placed on the subdivision special instructions.
The number of the switch or turnout indicates what speed is allowed when
turning out through it. More information about the types of turnouts and
their corresponding speeds is provided in the system special instructions
at the back of the timetable.
The subdivision special instruction page states the type of signal system
in service. The exact location of such signal systems is also listed.
We move on to the station page now. The lines drawn next to the stations
on the station page are track diagrams. While not all roads use them,
MoPac made great use of such diagrams. These diagrams indicated single
and multiple main tracks, locations of sidings and what side of the track
they were located, lines that branched off the main track and/or sidings
and also the crossing at grade of other rail lines. Solid lines breaking
off from the main tracks indicated another route that connected to the
subdivision. The dotted lines indicate the crossing of another railroad
at grade. The initials of the railroad or railroads that crossed at each
particular location are listed next to the station name. On the double
track portion of the subdivision, the solid lines that connect the two
tracks at various locations designate the location of crossover switches
between the main tracks. The angle of them in dicates the direction of
the crossovers.
The color highlighted areas on some of the track diagrams are used to
indicate the type of signal system in service on that particular track
segment. Orange was used to designate CTC (Centralized Traffic Control)
while green was used to indicate ABS (Automatic Block Signal). Areas with
no color at all were non-signaled track that was controlled by train order,
yard limits or some other method of operation that did not use signals
controlled by track circuits. This territory is referred to as "dark territory,"
a name derived from the lack of illuminated signals.
The portion of the route between Chicago and Dolton Junction is shown
with no color. While this segment had automatic block signal rules in
effect, it was actually owned and operated by the Chicago & Western
Indiana Railroad. This information appears on the subdivision special
instruction page. CWI rules, timetable and special instructions were in
effect on this portion, hence the lack of color, just as in the portion
of the Pana Sub on page 2 that is not colored.
If you look at the far left side of the station page on page 2, you'll
notice a bracket with the words "Joint MP-L&N." This segment of track
is jointly owned by the both MoPac and Louisville & Nashville and
was pointed out here. The MoPac was the "senior" owner of the two roads
and pretty much called the shots. The Uniform Code of Operating Rules
used by the MoPac and various other southwestern roads was in effect as
was the MoPac timetable and special instructions. At one time there was
a separate MoPac/L&N Joint Chicago Subdivision timetable in effect
that covered this portion of the railroad. Between 1969 and 1976 they
were joint C&EI/ L&N timetables before the C&EI flag was lowered
permanently by parent MoPac. L&N employees were only required to carry
the joint timetable during these days, but MoPac employees were required
to carry both the system and Chicago Division timetables. During the days
of the joint timetable a notation on the station page mentioned the joint
timetable being in effect. The use of the joint timetable ended in 1979
with system timetable #13. All the information was placed into the system
timetable negating the requirement for the joint timetable.
Direction for the subdivision is indicated at the top of the page. In
the case of the Chicago Sub moving from top to bottom is timetable direction
south while coming up from the bottom of the page is north. Each subdivision
is assigned a north-south or east-west direction. The assignment of direction
generally directly correlates with the actual configuration of the route.
While some lines will meander into all directions, specific direction
has to be assigned. If the route is generally north-south or east-west
in overall configuration, one of those designations will be used.
Some roads have designated their entire railroad as either east-west
or north-south. It didn't matter if some lines operated contrary to the
compass direction. Wisconsin Central was one such road. The entire railroad
was an east-west route in my days there even though some subdivisions
were actually more of a north south configuration. As a result, some trains
actually changed timetable directions during their journey going from
being a westbound to an eastbound train. T011 and T012, the trains operating
between Fond du Lac, WI and Gladstone, MI were a prime example of that.
T011 was a westbound departing Fond du Lac but when it entered the Shawano
Sub at Neenah, WI, it became an eastbound train. The timetable direction
from Neenah to Argonne, WI, where the Shawano Sub ended was eastward.
So a westbound train out of FDL became an eastbound train from Neenah
to Gladstone. And likewise the westbound T012 became an eastbound train
when entering the Neenah Sub at its namesake city en route to Fond du
Lac.
Observe the column on the left that shows miles. Every subdivision has
mileage calculated from a specific point. In the case of the Chicago Sub
as shown here, it is from Dearborn Station in Chicago. While Dearborn
Station had long since closed and the trackage used to access it had been
removed, it was shown as a matter of reference.
In between the station names (just under and above each name) you'll
see a set of numbers. For an example we'll use Villa Grove and Block.
Just below Block and above Villa Grove is the number 9.5. This number
indicates the distance between the two stations, in this case being 9.5
miles.
On the right middle of the page is a column with alpha-numeric numbers.
MoPac assigned a number peculiar to each location on a subdivision. There
were no two stations anywhere on the system that had the same designations.
Each alpha-numeric code, known as its "CIRC-7" code, was unique. Yard
Center is ZA-18. If there was another location designated at milepost
18 on any other subdivision, it used an alpha code that was different.
For example, Percy, IL on the Pinckneyville Sub was also located at milepost
18 on that subdivision. However, it was designated as C-18. On the Chicago
Sub, milepost 18 was located right at Sibley Boulevard, Illinois Rt. 83.
Sibley was the location of the main office building at Yard Center at
also the sight of a major interlocking also known as a control point.
As it worked out, it was also the operating center of the yard, even if
it wasn't exactly the geographic center.
The CIRC-7 was used as part of the TCS computer system designed and used
by MoPac. This system was created in part, to eliminate the potential
for confusion with regards to station names. Being that the MoPac was
a rather large railroad, over 11,000 miles, there was the distinct possibility
of two or stations having the same name, only in different states and
on different subdivisions. The CIRC-7 designation eliminated the possibility
of misrouted cars. Unfortunately, I cannot recall what the individual
letters in CIRC represented.
Siding designation and length is indicated in the last two columns on
the station page. Other auxiliary tracks that were designated sidings
were indicated in this column. Being that there were multiple auxiliary
tracks adjacent to the main tracks at both Yard Center and Chicago Heights,
they didn't use siding designations but rather called them yards. The
notation "Cars" was the car count each siding held. This car count was
based on fifty foot car lengths, the average size of a freight car back
then. There was also a designation in fe et which was actually quite important.
When setting up meets, the Dispatcher did not want to try to meet two
trains at a location where neither train would fit, although it has been
attempted many times over the years.
At the two sidings in Momence you'll notice the letter "n" and "s" preceding
the car counts. There were sidings along side of each main track. To differentiate
between the two, the one along the northbound main was called the northward
siding and the one along side the southbound main was the southward siding.
At the bottom of the station page you'll notice the number 339.0. This
number indicates the total mileage of the subdivision in miles and tenths
of miles.
You'll notice a wide array of symbols or characters located next to the
station names as well. Clicking onto http://www.railroad.net/santucci/tt13-8.jpg
explains all of these characters. The use of these characters helped to
simplify the station page keeping it less congested. It also saved space
in the timetable so that they didn't have to use full descriptions on
every station page throughout the entire timetable. At a glance, we'll
take JAY as an example. Based on the characters listed and the track diagram,
we see a crossing with the EJ&E Railway at Jay. Based on the characters
listed, we can see there are yard limits in effect here, a manual railroad
crossing at grade, a wayside base radio and also an open train order office.
The manual crossing at grade was with the Elgin, Joliet & Eastern,
which was controlled on sight manually by the Operator assigned there.
The wayside radio base was that of the one located inside the tower located
at the crossing known as "Jay Tower." The Operator at Jay Tower also copied
tr ain orders and delivered them to MoPac and L&N trains here. Now
if you had to write this information out on the subdivision special instructions
for every location, it could quickly become quite cumbersome.
A list of roadside signs used in conjunction with everyday operation
is included on the character explanation page.
At the point in time this timetable was in effect, the Pana Sub between
Pana Jct. (pronounced PAY-nuh) and Mitchell Yard was owned and operated
by Conrail. Their timetable and rulebook were in effect, so any special
instructions, speed limits and speed restrictions were found in their
timetables. MoPac employees operating over this railroad were issued and
required to carry Conrail timetables and rulebooks. In the early 80's
MoPac purchased this segment of track from Conrail and subsequent timetables
carried all of the information required. The portion between Mitchell
Yard and Granite City, IL was a jointly owned by Conrail and Illinois
Central Gulf. Again, there was a separate timetable in effect for this
portion. The Terminal Railroad Association of St Louis (TRRA) owned the
remaining portion of the route MoPac used to access St Louis on this subdivision.
The station portion of this page conveys no authority for MoPac trains,
it merely provides information.
Next, click onto http://www.railroad.net/santucci/tt13-5.jpg.
This brings up some additional special instructions. The map shows the
Kansas City Terminal trackage. As you can see it appears to look somewhat
complex. This map helps to explain the lay of the land as it were and
also includes special instructions about proceeding through what appears
to be quite the labyrinth. You'll also notice on page 31 there is a notation
about operating on Union Pacific trackage and the requirements to have
the Joint Tenant Line Rules in your possession. This book has the appearance
of a timetable and includes rules and special instructions for operating
on UP trackage in the Omaha Terminal area. Somewhere in my personal collection
of railroad timetables and rulebooks, I have a Joint Tenant Line book.
Now click onto http://www.railroad.net/santucci/tt13-6.jpg.
We see the Dallas Subdivision which hosted Amtrak. The times listed next
to the stations are the scheduled times of Amtrak at those locations.
The letter s next to the time indicates this is a regular scheduled station
stop. The letter f next to the time designates this as a flag stop. Trains
will only stop on request. If there is nobody on the train getting off
at that location or nobody visible on the platform to the approaching
train, they do not stop. By 1979 there were very few timetable scheduled
trains operating on the MoPac system. Most of these were the first class
Amtrak trains.
On either side of the station page are the designations for the scheduled
trains that convey their authority. The direction, class and train number
are included. As you can see, number 21 is a first class train operating
its schedule in a westward direction.
If you look at the track diagram at the bottom of page 46 you'll notice
an additional track in between the two main tracks at several locations.
These are actually sidings located in between the mains. Such siding placement
offers incredible flexibility in moving and dispatching trains. You'll
also notice the station BOP. This is not an actual town, but rather the
sight of a large General Motors assembly plant. In 1979 GM was building
the Regal, Cutlass and Grand Prix models at this plant. It was known as
"Bop" but actually just a station within the city of Arlington, TX. For
what its worth, Arlington is supposed to be geographically equidistant
to both Dallas and Fort Worth.
Clicking onto http://www.railroad.net/santucci/tt13-7.jpg
brings us to the Brownsville Subdivision of the Kingsville Division. Here
we see both CTC and dark territory operation. If you check out the subdivision
special instructions, you'll notice a significant amount of information
dealing with the operation over foreign railroads as part of this line.
Adding such information negated the requirement for MoPac crews to have
to carry Santa Fe timetables with them while on this trackage.
Being that MoPac operated via other railroads under trackage rights agreements;
provisions were made to accommodate the delivery of the proper information
to the crews that would be operating the trains. In some cases like above,
such information was conveyed through the subdivision special instructions.
In other instances, the amount of information (e.g. rules, speed restrictions
and other special instructions) was too extensive to place on the subdivision
special instructions pages. Instead, such information was posted in the
system special instructions portion in the back of the timetable. Information
for some of the Santa Fe trackage rights pertaining to rules, signals
and other special instructions takes up over two pages in the system special
instructions. Rules and spe cial instructions pertaining to trackage rights
on the Frisco takes over a page a half and the rules and special instructions
pertaining to trackage rights on the Kansas City Southern and their Louisiana
& Arkansas subsidiary take up nearly two and a half pages. At one
time, a joint MoPac (and subsidiary Texas & Pacific)/KCS-L&A timetable
was issued for the segment of the railroad in which both railroads operated.
Adding the information to the system special instructions negated the
need for an additional timetable.
Now we go to the system special instructions at http://www.railroad.net/santucci/tt13-4.jpg.
The system special instructions cover a wide variety of topics. As you
can see from the two pages I have posted here there is a great deal of
information about speed restrictions. Certain types of equipment will
have speed restrictions that must be adhered to for various reasons. There
are also instructions dealing with the special handling of certain types
of loads as well as some types of locomotives.
Each item in the special instructions will have a number and often also
a number with a letter assigned to it. If the special instructions must
be superceded for any reason, a train order or Superintendent's Bulletin
would be issued. Such an issue would include the specific system special
instruction number and, if applicable, letter. Such a train order or bulletin
would read something to the effect of "Timetable no 3 System Special Instructions
item no 8 is changed to read "
There is a section in the system special instructions that explains hot
box and dragging equipment detectors. The proper procedures for inspecting
a car or cars and if applicable, the entire train when stopped by a detector,
are clearly explained and fully covered. The detectors themselves are
also explained.
Changes, deletions and any other revisions to the operating or safety
rule books are also handled by the system special instructions. Being
that we were using a rule book issued in 1968, by 1979 there had been
significant changes and modifications issued to supercede what was originally
issued in that book. In the timetable we are studying today, there were
no less than six and one half pages of revisions to the Uniform Code of
Operating Rules.
A section is included that deals with the operation of engines in various
aspects of the job including short time load ratings, operation through
water, shoving and back up movements and even restrictions in using the
whistle. You probably noticed one of the characters on the page explaining
them was the number 9 in a circle. This is item 9 in the special instructions
that covers no whistle ordinances at specific locations. There is even
an item that deals with the operation of rail testing cars and equipment.
The qualifications of Engineers is also discussed as part of item 7.
While only one paragraph, it was quite comprehensive in what it had to
say.
And finally, go to http://www.railroad.net/santucci/tt13-3.jpg.
You'll notice the names of company doctors and their respective locations.
You'll also notice a speed table at the very bottom of the page. This
table converts elapsed time into speed in miles per hour. The main reason
for this conversion table is to cover the possibility of having a speedometer
fail en route. There are mileposts every mile and you are required to
have (in the days of this timetable) a railroad approved watch. Should
your speedometer not be working, you can easily check your speed just
the same using this table and your watch, timing the miles.
Whenever a new timetable is issued, a notice or bulletin is posted in
advance of its taking effect. We don't just show up one day and they say
here is a new timetable. In the days of this timetable, we were still
using train orders. A train order was issued 24 hours prior to and then
six days after its taking effect. The wording was something to the effect
of "Acceptance of this train order confirms that you have timetable no
13 (or whatever number the new one taking effect was) in your possession.
In those days MoPac was very generous and you had no problem getting
a new one. The Operators, Trainmasters, Yardmasters and Callers all had
cases of them in their offices, so there was generally no problem in getting
a new one or several of them. I always took several as one went into my
personal collection and the other went into my grip, after studying it
of course.
Over the years, many railroads issued new timetables twice a year to
correspond with the time change between standard and daylight savings
time. As the freight railroads exited the passenger business, those that
issued the twice a year timetables began to stray from the twice per year
policy. Now it is not uncommon to see the same timetable remain in effect
for a couple of years or more.
The employee timetable is required to be in your possession while on
duty along with the operating rulebook, safety rulebook, air brake and
train handling rules and any other required books. The other required
books will vary from railroad to railroad. The books or circulars that
employees are required to carry are listed where else, but in the special
instructions of the timetable. Failure to carry the timetable, rulebooks
and other required materials can result in disciplinary action being taken
against the offending employee. If an employee is caught by the FRA not
having the required books, they have the right to assess a fine against
the offending employee.
It seems more and more in recent years that whenever a new timetable
goes into effect, within days or hours, bulletins are issued to amend
the mistakes that appear in the new timetable. It used to be that proofs
were checked very closely for mistakes before they "put it to bed," but
that seems to no longer be the case today.
I have publicly suggested in the past that before a new timetable is
printed and distributed, proof copies should be handed out to several
of the better Engineers and Conductors working each subdivision for their input, revisions
and corrections. By using the people you pay to adhere to this timetable,
those who use it daily, you would likely get a much more accurate timetable.
There would likely be no need to be putting out bulletins correcting all
the mistakes before the ink is dry on the pages. While it is possible
that some mistakes do occur at the printing house, more of them come from
the railroad. However, it is likely my suggestion will not ever be taken
up.
In any event, the timetable is a vital component of railroad operations
and all employees should take the time to study and learn it. While there
is no way one can recall every item within the timetable, you should be
able to know where to look to find the information you need without having
to fumble through the thing. To quote a line Conrail used at the beginning
of all their timetables, "Know your timetable."
And with that, we now conclude today's tour of the employee timetable.
Again, I wish to thank Michael Roque, Otto Vondrak and all the fine folks
at Railroad.net for graciously hosting the accompanying photos.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Scenes of LA Metrorail, and NY Subway can been seen. I'm glad to see these commercials supporting public transit, vs. that other group who had disinformation about Public Transit.
In 2005, the N will be.
The Council Member for Coney Island is all for it. He says:
“What we should do is establish a direct line from Manhattan to Coney Island — express trains for the Brooklyn Nets,” Recchia said.
So maybe we'll get the Sea Beach express back. Diamond-N/NX would be fastest.
I like the idea, and had thought of it even before this announcement. As the article said, there is more open space out there, so why not build on that instead of mowing down an up and coming neighborhood? (The same on the other side of Flathush. Why mow down Fulton and Willoughby for skyscrapers when there are plenty of lots on Schermerhorn?).
They should just find something smaller (that would fit in one block) to build on the LIRR yard, as it would be nice to see that ugly space filled.
One person suggests buinding on "the failed Atlantic Center Mall". Is that really failed. The new addition hasn't even opened yet. Maybe then it will be better. The arena should have been on that whole site, as that was where the new Ebbets would have been, and it was all mostly empty for so long. But it would be ridiculous to demolish such a huge complex that is still being built now.
But the professional basketball arena would be the thing to bring some winter activity to Coney Island, and help revitalize the whole area.
How much Second Avenue Subway can you get for that price?
Sounds like they're taking their cue from Amtrak... Only the first run, and they had it stuck behind a freight train. :-)
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Still, a great achievement.
If you're starting in Manhattan, your express ride is the LIRR; the cheaper, slower option is the subway.
Go to Howard Beach and watch all the travelers who prefer to carry their luggage down the stairs than to wait for the elevator.
OFF TOPIC discussion board for RAILFANS
RailfanWindow.com Gallery of Photos
High-floor buses aren't useful to everyone with luggage, but they're fine for most. Low-floor buses are better, of course, as long as they're run often enough to satisfy demand.
And what if you can do neither safely with bags? And even if you can, do you want to? Of course not; the TA is steadily making more stops ADA compliant.
Your post misses the point and the topic entirely.
AirTrain isn't about superiority over any form of bus technology but over the use of a bus which cannot deliver schedule or seamless connections. The bus itself as a vehicle can be accommodating.
One thing of note is that a low floor bus generally is arranged with fewer seats available. You can have an articulated low-floor bus to get around that.
Many bus routes around the world somehow manage to consistently maintain their schedules; many train routes manage to consistently fall off-schedule. It must be magic.
False statement at Kennedy; and the amount of infrastructure needed would cost nearly as much to construct as AirTrain.
Stephen Baumann has provided good data here on relative operating costs; rail (esp. automated rail with no drivers) costs far less than buses to operate annually, so even the modest construction savings your approach would be gobbled up by operating costs of a less efficient system.
If you have specific data that contradicts what Stephen posted or that the PA provided in the EIS, feel free to post it.
If you want to know what the PA thinks specifically about that, write a letter and ask them.
Greyhound is also faster to Boston, and is probably faster to WDC as well. Long distances, I think Greyhound in general is faster.
I think a High-Speed Line is neccessary.
Source for this??? According to www.greyhound.com, the fastest trip from NY to Boston is 4:20. The fastest trip Amtrak offers is 3:30.
I would add that Amtrak is also considerably more comfortable.
Why? You terminate from north the A, from south the S - connect them and
run an alternate service to Far Rock and Rock Park.
This board always talks about putting subways on the AirTrain tracks. Why replace the whole A fleet with dual modes when only 4 of the 10 cars could even platform?
The greatest potential is the reverse: build a small fleet of dual mode AirTrains, and run them on the subway tracks.
So the A train will share the local tracks with the C while AirTrain has priority on the express tracks. What hours would you propose?
This is the same question that comes up if the JFK Express operates with subway cars.
Actually, a Jay St to Howard Beach non-stop train (or 1 stop at Boradway Jct) would only be a few minutes quicker than a regular A express. So you could run it right in front of a regular A train and it would never catch up to the previous A, except in rush hour.
As for re-instating the JFK express, remember that the northern terminal of 57th & 6th is no longer available.
Regards,
Jimmy
Too many E trains there? Send more to 179th street!
I encourage the MTA to see if they can make it work.
[Maybe they put the kibosh the earlier rumored effort to run special train-to-the-planes because they're busy planning to jam the LIRR into the Cranberry tunnels. Then again, maybe it's the AirTrains they would put into Cranberry. They would have to run during rush hour to address the Brookfield paradigm, but would cost a lot less than $5 billion. We'll see if it's one of the options the Governor unveils.]
Too bad nobody thought of this years ago. Instead of 4-car platforms at each terminal, AirTrain could have been built with 10-car platforms each spanning two terminals.
And if AirTrain had used the same propulsion system as the subway, then nothing would need to be replaced at all.
Wait a sec. I thought of it three years ago, and I'm sure many others beat me to the punch. Too bad nobody was listening.
Happy reading.
Even if not in NY, you can still call and ask how to get a copy. If they ask for postage reimbursement, it's well worth it if you're interested in this.
Any EIS has to assess the impacts ($$$, service, construction, environmental etc.)of various alternatives. The Preferred Alternative is what they want to build; they have to identify and examine in detail other Alternatives, including a No Build (Do Nothing, Status Quo) alternative.
First there's a draft EIS. The public gets to submit comments. The agency doing the EIS (MTA, PA etc. must address, in writing, comments by the public). The Final EIS incorporates all of that.
The PA included the Rail Option as the preferred alternative (that's what the agency wanted to build). A bus option was looked at too, but was rejected because it lacked the efficiency, convenience comfort, of the preferred rail option. It also, operationally, costs more to operate.
I encourage you to take a look at the document. Whether or not you agree with it you will learn a lot about what the EIS process entails.
With due respect, no one asked how an EIS process works in general. We know that.
No one asked whether it is posssible to obtain an old document from government authorities. We all realize that, with sufficient effort and expense, it can be done.
Rather, since you have this particular document at your fingertips, and most of us don't, several people have asked if you wouldn't mind telling us why certain options were rejected.
If you answer is "Sorry, I can't be bothered," why not say so?
That may be true, but if the powers that be (Pataki) tell MTA to do it, it will be done.
WHOA !, to supplement the IRT fleet or replace the R-62's ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I hope they have full ATO with only the TO having to open and close the doors (he/she won't need a hand on the controller). I also want them to be like SEPTA's M-4 with a small cab and railfan window. OPTO with a narrow cab is possible-look at the Baltimore Metro.
Just in time for the 2012 Oympics!
Just thought I'd let everybody know that I've secured a place to live in New York City, and I'll be moving up there on Monday, February 16th. I'll be sharing a decent-sized two-bedroom apartment with an NYU student in the Sunset Park neighborhood of Brooklyn. The apartment itself is only two blocks from the 53rd Street station on the (R) and four blocks from the 59th Street station on the (N) and (R). Once the tracks on the Manhattan Bridge are re-opened, I'll be able to have a nice one-seat ride on the (N) express all the way into Midtown and beyond.
With any luck and perhaps a little divine intervention, I'll hopefully have a job waiting for me when I arrive in NYC. I had four interviews with architecture firms over the past couple weeks, and at least a couple of them seemed to go very well. Of course, I'm also sending out resumes to additional firms in the meantime. Wish me luck.
I'm very excited about moving to NYC, and your continued prayers are greatly appreciated. The only possible downside, of course, is that if I ever get bored with New York, the next city I move to may need to be London. :-)
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Are you goingto go for some WTC or transit-related architectural work?
$2.8 billion, plus the Freedom Tower...lots of work, need assistant architects for the details?
$2.8 billion, plus the Freedom Tower...lots of work, need assistant architects for the details?
Most of that work is going to the big corporate firms, and I'm looking more at smaller firms that specialize in smaller-scale projects. Right now I'd rather be overseeing small projects on my own than doing widget details for a big project like that.
I'm not sure I'd even want to be associated with something with an Orwellian name like "Freedom Tower", and I don't care much for what has become of that design, anyway... Not sure I could bite my tongue long enough to work on that project. :-)
I'd love to do work on Calatrava's design for the PATH station, but I don't even know what local firms are involved with that one. Hopefully not the same ones involved with the "Freedom Tower" debacle.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
You can contact Calatrava's firm and find out how to qualify as a subcontractor.
(guess ya had ta live there to get it) Heh.
You have also arrived just in time for the trolley operator classes at Branford in March.
Does anyone ever get bored with NYC? "He who is tired of New York is tired of life", as Dr Johnson didn't say.
But if you did come to London you would certainly find a varied and interesting rail scene. You'd have big problems finding an inexpensive place to live, though!
Oh, I dont know, surely Atlanta or Charlotte or Dallas would fit the bill quite nicely ...
Funny though, how those of us born and raised in "fun city," we've NEVER been to the top of the Empire State Bldg, never gone to Liberty Island, coiuld give a qwap about "Lion Kink", and MANY of us have NEVER seen a Broadway Play (school fieldtrips excepted) ... heh.
Now let's talk about CHARLOTTE ... hahahahahahaha ... couldn't restrain myself - BEEN there. Heh. OK - Really really POSITIVE thing to say about Charlotte, ("HOME of Jim and Tammy Bakker" *AND* "Home of the BILLY GRAHAM EXPRESSWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!") is "Bubba's Barbecue." Best swine in the south, "Please visit our GRITS plantation, and THANK YEW for visiting AMERICA!" (heh) ... Best damned BARBQ I ever had, tho' - kept going back for MORE! (slurp!) ... :)
But besides Bubba's, what ELSE does the SOUTH have *NOW* that Shrub's shipped off the textiles, machine tool making and other precision technical crafts to CHINA? Whoops. When the bubbas find a WHOLE lot more "time on their hands in the devil's playground" suddenly reality lights - those "jobs" in the southeast US lasted for only a few years. Hell - SATURN had to fold to the ghads of GM since them "hicks" in GOP land are wimps anyway. :(
Gotta love it - Shrub is doing to the southeast what his party did to the northeast in the NIXON/FORD years (Genuine newspaper headlines - "FORD TO NYC - DROP DEAD" *just* like Shrub's done to us NYC/NYS taxpayers - sphincter tingling sufficiently yet? WATCH the next 3 years for sphincter tingle - I've ALREADY seen the numbers, yike! :(
But PLEASE ... the SOUTH is getting from their "republicans eat their offspring" reality already - check the employment numbers of all those corporations the south is "Lezzie-fairying" ... heh. Those that fled the rustbelt are DOING IT TO THE SOUTHLAND! :)
Gotta love it ... wonder if the crackers are STILL gonna pull the ENRON lever at the polls this year. Heh. REALITY at a Wal*Mart price says the SOUTH will *finally* figure out precisely what that "painful rectal itch" REALLY is. :)
Maybe those people who were born and raised in "Fun City" are sheltered, uncultured boors, but many people born and raised in New York City have been to those places.
Really really POSITIVE thing to say about Charlotte, is "Bubba's Barbecue." Best swine in the south
I guess there's nothing positive to say about Charlotte.
Besides, too many Republicans and religious nutcases down in those parts for my taste.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
The Sun Belt may not be everyone's cultural or political cup of tea, so to speak, but there's just one thing to remember: They have jobs. We don't.
New York State as a whole was slightly worse than average, despite 9/11 -- almost the losses were in NYC, most from August 2001 to August 2002. With all the business pushed out of NYC by the disaster, the NY suburbs and NJ lost almost nothing.
People seem to have realized that NYC is the place to be. So no one is leaving. They are just riding it out.
Who did best in the recession? Places that benefit from lots of government spending, either because they have the elderly (Florida, Nevada, Arizona) they have defense of they just suck up lots of tax dollars (ie. Upstate NY). Energy areas did well too (Wyoming). Just like the 1970s, when I ended up in the Sunbelt too for my last two years of high school (Tulsa, OK).
Shoot me if you like, but I believe that the difference in life circumstances between those living in the United States and those living in places like Africa, Latin America, and Asia, which grew wider in the past century, is going to close in the next century, one way or the other. And unless we start thinking of them as human beings equally deserving of our concern, its going to the the other. It may not affect me, but it will affect my children.
And in any event, if any jobs are lost to the scab Asians, they will be jobs New York previously lost to the non-union, scab southerners. Under the circumstances, I'd say we in New York deserve a better price where we can get it.
In:
- Filmmaking in LIC
- Cheap higher education on Long Island, the Bronx, Westchester
- Biotech in Jersey and Brooklyn
- Finance, still
- Small theater in Brooklyn and Manhattan
- Small consulting
- The fashion industry ain't going away when all those Africans, Latinas and Asians get some bucks in their pockets
- The artists and musicians ain't runnin' over to Camaroon any time in the near future. They're coming here.
- Specialty manufacturing
- Technical services
- Health care
Every single one of those things needs educated people and transportation -- to the BOROUGHS -- desperately, to keep going.
IT, software, and Telecomm started to feel the pain nationwide around March 2001. Many of those poor folks are still unemployed.
I have family "down yonder" ... THEY are getting laid off now ... they're not taking to it any more kindly than Kodak employees in Rochester. "MARS? Whattabout HERE?" seems to be the common refrain THROUGHOUT the country ... even the damned plucked chickens are coming in from south of the equator these days. :(
BUBBA seems to be NOTICING! :)
Maybe in general, but in my line of work -- unless I wanted to spend my life designing strip malls or cookie-cutter McMansions -- my best job prospects are not in the Sun Belt.
The US cities with by far the strongest architectural communities are New York and Chicago, and to a lesser extent, Boston and Los Angeles. If you're a young architect looking to get established in the profession, those are the places to go.
In reality, if I ever got truly tired of New York, that probably means I'd be tired of urban life in general. If that was the case, I'd most likely head off to somewhere in the Pacific Northwest.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Keep in mind, however, that you have specialized skills. New York offers good opportunities in many fields. Finance, publishing, performing arts, and others. On the other hand, New York's persistent inability to provide jobs for the unskilled and uneducated, an issue that's persisted for decades in all types of economic conditions, is its curse. Times readers on the Upper West Side may enjoy denigrating "McJobs," but what they can't or won't realize is that being a "Wal-Martian," for example, is vastly better than being out of work, or working off the books in some crappy bodega for two bucks an hour.
--
Peter Rosa
prosa123@yahoo.com
Remember what you said about a smaller percentage of New Yorkers having Cable TV than in other parts of the country? Those places you've mentioned (except for Atlanta) are only good for sitting home and watching television.
Welcome home.
BTW, where you'll be in Sunset Park is just a stone's throw from the Bush Terminal facilities where alot of development-related things should be happenning over the next few months.
Once you have employment and can afford to eat, check out dim sum over at the Ocean Palace on 8th Avenue due east of you. Of Fiorentinos on Avenue U. a long walk from the Avenue U. station on the N (past the F train). Or, change at Pacific to get to Juniors over DeKalb Avenue.
Finally, if you'd like to stop by a church, check out the whopper of a Catholic church on 5th Avenue just up the road, the biggest in Brooklyn.
Well, in my price range, my choices were pretty much limited to any place that didn't have a 212 area code. But I reserve the right to move to Manhattan at some point in the future.
Once you have employment and can afford to eat, check out dim sum over at the Ocean Palace on 8th Avenue due east of you. Of Fiorentinos on Avenue U. a long walk from the Avenue U. station on the N (past the F train). Or, change at Pacific to get to Juniors over DeKalb Avenue.
Cool... Know of any good pizza places within delivery/take-out distance of 55th Street and 4th Avenue? I'll need to have a way to reward those who help me move in.
Finally, if you'd like to stop by a church, check out the whopper of a Catholic church on 5th Avenue just up the road, the biggest in Brooklyn.
Cool, I'll have to check it out.... Although as a member of the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, it would take one whopper of a church to impress me. :-)
(Of course, size and quality are two different things, and I always love exploring various sacred architecture.)
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
I've attended services at a number of Episcopal churches in Manhattan, and some of them are incredible. St. Thomas Fifth Avenue, St. Mary the Virgin, and Trinity Wall Street are all very impressive. St. Bart's near GCT is rather unique, and Heavenly Rest up near the Guggenheim is a very interesting blend of neo-gothic and art deco.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
A coed I hope!! :)
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Chicago to Philadelphia to Brooklyn -- moving up in the world. We still miss you here in the Windy City. Say hello to Brooklyn for me.
-- Ed Sachs
Any help is greatly appreciated.... Thanks!
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/03/nyregion/03subway.html
Giuliani, DEFINITELY (6) 33%
Giuliani, Leaning (0) 0%
Will Not Vote (2) 11%
Bloomberg, Leaning (3) 17%
Bloomberg, DEFINITELY (2) 11%
Candidate of a Third Party (1) 6%
I'd move someplace else (4) 22%
Click to Cast Your Vote, Please.
What if, by some trick of eminent domain and nimbys-be-damned, the MTA rebuilt, in their entirety, the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 9th Ave Els in Manhattan, the 3rd ave el in the Bronx, and the Myrtle, 5th and Lex Ave Els in Brooklyn? (which would mean putting the el down the middle of a housing project where Hudson Avenue used to be and running trains across the Brooklyn Bridge)
How would these areas, the way they are NOW in 2004, be affected? Which areas would prosper and which would suffer?
www.forgotten-ny.com
However, since your talking that it could be done as a fait accompli, that there would still be problems along the lines, because there would be noise, etc.
Now while we're imagining, would we assume modern els? Or the way they were when taken down? could they be reinforced? Could we use modern equipment or not?
But I'll say one thing, it would solve the SAS problem, and lots cheaper.
In my 'imaginary story' we'd build them the modern way, as noiselessly as possible.
www.forgotten-ny.com
-- It would be a great boon to 9th Avenue, which is almost the least-desirable north-south thoroughfare in Manhattan (aside from 10th and 11th Avenues).
-- It would be very detrimental to 6th Avenue, which has excellent subway service and doesn't need an El
-- Although 2nd & 3rd Aves do not have subway service, reconstructing the Els would make these streets less desirable. Rents would go down.
-- In Brooklyn and the Bronx, where an El was torn down and not replaced with subway service, the neighborhoods would be better off if the Els were rebuilt.
OTOH, a really nice, small, quiet monorail in the middle of the avenue might be a different story.
Els can be built more noiselessly these days; it's the lack of sight lines the nimbys would object to...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The £10 billion minimum cost remains the major stumbling-block. Find this story at This is London.
What's more, apparently there is a Crosslink 2 which would connect Victoria and Kings Cross stations. If both crosslinks were built, apparently Tottenham Court Road would become some sort of mega-transfer station...
Currently, the mere existance of the M25 does much to make long distance rail journeys look uncompetitive to the general public, and my car-driving friends treat the prospect of any rail journey that requires two changes or more with derision. If we had one east-west line, and two north-south lines (Thameslink 2000 long distance: Leeds/Sheffield/York to Brighton/Dover/Eastbourne etc.) and West London-Link (Liverpool/ Manchester/Birmingham/ to Southampton/Portsmouth) then I think there would be a genuine possibility of emptying the motorways.
What a good idea. We might even get electrification north of Bedford... (but I'm not holding my breath).
The only part of BR with any expertise approaching LT is the people responsible for Charing Cross/Cannon Street. I think you could quite happily swap management and not notice a difference. People running Liverpool Street to Shenfield might be able to manage something like the Bakerloo Line, but nothing more demanding than that.
I do feel that an east-west and two north-south axis services is possible and affoardable. The major downside would be that West London Link users would have poor access to Central London. Any suggestions (without doubling up by running additional services to Waterloo/Euston? We have to have simplicity and frequency to get my friends out of their cars.)
Needless to say, the Evening Standard does not support Ken Livingston's re-election.....
There is also a report in the Financial Times that seems more informative and less biased.
The £10 billion estimate applies to Crossrail One, as shown on the Preferred Route Map. That's $18.375 billion at today's rate of exchange, more than the cost of the full length Second Avenue Subway.
The map shows eight new underground stations, so dividing the total cost by the number of new underground stations gives £1.25 billion = $2.3 billion. On the same basis the SAS would cost about $1 billion per station for each of the 16 stations.
Why the big difference?
Crossrail is to be built for 12-car full sized commuter trains, so both tunneling costs and stations costs are likely to be higher than for a normal subway. Also most of the 32 Crossrail stations on existing surface lines would have to be lengthened. And the two southerly branches, Kingston and Ebbsfleet, would have to be converted from third rail to 25KV catenary.
London Regional Metro is a consortium that has an alternative Crossrail plan. LRM would build only the core line through central London from Paddington to Liverpool Street, and connect it to the main lines.
While the core route is well established, a great many options have been considered for the branches. The latest report suggests that some branches are more worthwhile than others, and in particular the Shenfield branch is worthwhile but the Kingston branch is not. I would argue that neither the Ebbsfleet branch nor the Kingston branch should be built. I would also be quite happy if the underground station at Whitechapel (not shown in the LRM plan) were omitted. That would eliminate three underground stations, leaving only the five core stations at Paddington, Bond Street, Tottenham Court Road, Farringdon and Liverpool Street.
Then there would be just one line, going from Heathrow to Shenfield, and the cost would be reduced by a few billions.
Its far from clear to me what problems exactly Crossrail One II is intended to solve, and I love rail projects, so just think how skeptical the people who actually have to pay up will be. The Ebbsfleet and Kingston branches seem to be intended to solve problems that do not exist.
Crossrail Two used to be the nice straightforward Chelsea-Hackney tube. I suspect it would have a better chance of being built if it stayed that way.
As a person who doesn't drive, and actually uses trains, the major problem facing travellers is those rail terminals. They overload the Underground, turn any luggage-laden long distance journey into a nightmare, and offer uncompetitive journey times compared with the M25. A 10 billion pound project should be aiming to get rid of at least two of them.
It is supposed to relieve overcrowding and prevent businesses from "relocating to Europe".
Or, in their own words: "There are serious implications in not building Crossrail. Congestion on an already overcrowded system will worsen and conditions for passengers will suffer. There is also the potential that, faced with a failing transport infrastructure, international business will relocate to Europe, away from the UK altogether."
I can see the case for relief of overcrowding, but that is a problem confined to parts of the proposed line.
It would be difficult to prove that Crossrail will prevent businesses from "relocating to Europe". Perhaps they should be more worried about losing business to India or China than to other parts of Europe.
When I was at school I learned that Britain was a part of Europe, and since that time I heard that Britain had joined Europe, but apparently I was misinformed in both cases!
Now everything has got really really vague. I guess that the scarmongers had to play the "losing jobs to Europe" card, but does this really depend on overcrowding at Liverpool Street?
I don't think this project has a chance of being funded. Our very own SAS.
Only the British government can safeguard against job loss in India or China. Within 10 years, the U.S. will lost over 1 million IT jobs and no one is doing a thing about these high paying jobs going overseas. I suspect the same will happen to the British if nothing is done to protect their workers. I predict the american "computer programmer" will suffer the same fate as the horse carriage repair man.
>>>The original Thameslink scheme connected Blackfriars and Farringdon stations was a cheap somewhat patchy scheme. The route was formed by a disused route which was last used before World War One. The signalling and track cost just £4 million. Most of the capital was spent on the 60 dual-voltage Class 319 units. The service was basically formed of joining the pervious service north and south of the Thames.<<<
Also that Thameslink is (or was) run by Go-Ahead Rail, and that there has been a planned expansion/rebuild called Thameslink2000 that seems to be on hold. And most of the offical Thameslink site is down.
And that was about it.
So, what is Thameslink?
Is it just continous commuter service from the area North of the Thames to the area South (as implied by the Thameslink2000 maps), what kind of passenger rolling stock does it use, was it around during British Rail times, how on Earth did they find an UNUSED route across London, how does it fit into the whole Regional Operating Company/Rail Network concept, or however Britian styles its many railroad companies nowadays?
In other words, is it anything special?
Yes, but it only runs at most 4 TPH suburban and 4 TPH long distance, being limited by having to share tracks in the south.
as implied by the Thameslink2000 maps
The Thameslink 2000 project, if built, would aim to run 24 TPH through the link, and most would be 12-car trains.
what kind of passenger rolling stock does it use
Main line trains that can take power from third rail (south of the link) or catenary (north of the link).
was it around during British Rail times
I think it has been running for about 15 years. British Rail was split up in the mid nineties.
how on Earth did they find an UNUSED route across London
The north and south parts had separate passenger services with a gap between them.
The connecting tunnel (the link) was originally built for (steam) freight trains, and had steep grades and sharp bends.
how does it fit into the whole Regional Operating Company/Rail Network concept, or however Britian styles its many railroad companies nowadays?
Thameslink operates the trains, National Rail maintains the tracks, and the Strategic Rail Authority is in charge — until the next reorganization.
Thameslink as it currently exists was built on the cheap, but does provide a useful additional facility. Unfortunately the ramshackle arrangements lead to poor timekeeping on Thameslink services. Thameslink 2000 (which might realistically be renamed Thameslink 2020) is the proper job. It would link to more routes on the north side (presently just one), have modern stations capable of handling 12-car trains, and be able to handle 24 tph instead of eight.
The major obstacle to its creation is the series of flat junctions that Thameslink has to negotiate south of the Thames. After leaving Blackfriars station and crossing the bridge across the river, southbound Thameslink locals go straight on, via an unimpeded route, to Elephant and Castle. Unfortunately, this route does not lead to a nice fast line to Brighton, nor does it provide connections to most of southeast London's commuter routes. For those things, the Thameslink needs to go to London Bridge station, which is why the Thameslink expresses go there. But that means they have to cross Metropolitan Junction to get on to the Charing Cross-London Bridge Line; then negotiate the notorious bottleneck of Borough Market Junction; and then, after London Bridge, cross some more flat junctions to get off the Southeastern main line and on to the Brighton main line. All these merges conflict with other commuter services. This limits the Thameslink expresses to four tph offpeak and two tph peak (though in the peaks some Brighton-Bedford trains do use the slower Elephant & Castle route), as well as damaging timekeeping. The major expense and difficulty in the Thameslink 2000 plan lies in the reconstruction of these junctions.
The Thameslink 2000 plan envisages a new station at Farringdon, separate from the historic Metropolitan Line station that it currently uses, though still providing good connections to Underground services. I have always assumed that the reason why Crossrail One is planned to have a station at Farringdon is to provide connections between Crossrail and Thameslink. I think the conception is based on Paris's RER - a "supermetro" system with limited stops in the central area providing faster, longer distance services trough the heart of the city. Thameslink 2000 would be the north-south arm of it, and Crossrail One the east-west arm.
I agree with Max that the long-proposed Hackney-Chelsea line should have been kept as a proposed tube line, not converted into Crossrail Two which will never get built. Tunnels should be built to main-line dimensions only when there is a good reason to do so; to build subway lines to that specification simply raises their costs so astronomically that they never get built.
Either Fred & Bob screwed up, or you did.
We are all human, which means we all screw up once in a while.
GET OVER IT!!!!
Are the trucks themselves scrapped?? Used on other trains??
Always wondered!!!
Please answer!
Keep them as spares perhaps........
Are the trucks themselves scrapped?? Used on other trains??
If it's heading toward scrap, then it is probably made into liquid metal or recycled. Don't know exactly what they do though, maybe someone else has more depth with this issue.
Train Dude??
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/03/nyregion/03subway.html
Some of the swipers of today, as they are nicknamed, have stumbled upon a MetroCard quirk in which someone can bend a discarded card a certain way, then swipe it through a card reader three times quickly and somehow end up with a $2 credit.
This sounds like the software is suceptable to buffer overflow attacks. The bent cards register one of those partial reads...the three time swipe causes the overflow and the result of the overflow is a $2 credit. Many of my current security classes here down at the Johns Hopkins Information Security Institute talk about how most developers continue to repete the mistakes of the past and code in languages suceptable to such attacks. Of course if you need fast operation you almost have to use C or another unsafe language.
Ahh, the JHISI.
But even WORSE, instead of using trusty ANSI C, some bozoids actually use WINAPI which has a strncpy "equivalent" called strcpyn() and of course the bastardized Microsoft lstrncpy() which have their own unicode-based buffer overflow flaws ... but it ain't the language that's unsafe - it's a shared fault between bastardized MicrosoftAPI and lazy programmers who don't understand that you *MUST* check for exceptions before copying or moving chit into memory.
NEVER trust the kernel to do the right thing, you have to code it yourself. :)
Most programmers would allocate the variable to 256. BUZZZZzzzzz. You forgot to allocate memory for the trailing NULL ... but the correct answer is no longer 257 thanks to MS patches and unicode. The CORRECT answer is that you must allocate 258! Why? Character strings already had to allocate for a NULL, but with unicode, strings must be null terminated (and this often has to be done by strcat()'ing a null in the first place because unicode is byte pairs. In other words, to ENSURE that you won't smash the stack, you have to put TWO NULLs in there to make things "microsafe."
Even Microsoft doesn't do this. Explain a few things, does it? :)
That's why at least the code that comes out of OUR house isn't making a splash in the computer rags for this exploit and that exploit ... and we use Borland ANSI C, not this silly "don't know where the inheritance came from" C++ object stuff. Generates nice clean ASM ...
Borland just generates code - it YOU screw up, it'll warn ya that you've done something ... well ... "not smart" at minimum ... secret in writing REAL code is to make the warnings at compile time stop - ESPECIALLY in Borland (as we use here) which actually has a clue of the potential "whoopsies" when compiling.
J-Builder is pretty good ... but we've REALLY got to get somehow back to topic - "geek stuff" don't cut it here, and sorry to also say, I'm 30+ years past academic discussions - since the economy STILL sucks, and the media is STILL peddling "antivirus" as protection whilst there's those of us here in the "anti-TROJAN" biz who can actually STOP it, ain't got time for the acadmics, life here (I *ONLY* appear on subtalk while at WORK, I have *no* computers at "home." Security uber alles. :)
Just make sure that whatever you build (advice to ALL - DAVE PIRRMAN "gets it" too) allows those who surf with "scripting" ENTIRELY OFF for their safety all the page with the (noscript) tags intact ... UNTIL Macrochit gets its act together and allows settings of "something want to download. Is it OK for this mystery redirect to download?" and *DANG* ... sucker click YES ANYWAY. :(
That's WHAT I do for a living - making it go away. :)
But VC++??? Heh. Surely you jest ... ("yes I do, and stop calling me Shirley") ... moo. "THANKS for playing, Don Pardo - tell him what he's won."
Save your anti-MS rants for something you something know about!
Arti
Frankly, I think working with pointers is cool, especially when array[-5] is a valid statement!!
The problems with C as a language stem from the early days, when programmers used little tricks, which were inherently unrealiable: stepping through character strings just looking for the zero terminator, without having an bounds check, as one example. Unfortunately the habits haven’t died…
There’s something to be said for languages like Java, which force all pointer references to be defined and explicit and don’t allow the programmer to trample over memory. Java garbage collection may not be perfect, but the run time is getting better (which it should as the people who are maintaining it have a focus…). Unfortunately, Java doesn’t have programmer settable lower bounds for arrays, but all references are checked–and you could make a strong argument for encapsulating the code for something like the temperature example I gave above into an object, keeping all the scaling in one place and therefore easier to maintain.
Just my 2½¢ worth, based on my (OMG!) 25 years in the business!
One problem is that strncpy does not add a final null, if the source string is longer than the number of characters specified. The fun really begins when one tries to use the destination string which does not have a terminating null. Moral is one cannot use strncpy and assume that it makes code safe vis-a-vis buffer overflows.
It's not redundant, if it's required to make code work. The limitations of strncpy are clearly spelled out in the function description and specification.
My own preference is to do a memset on the destination followed by a strncpy. This has the advantage of forcing an exception, if I inadertantly decide to execute that address or use it as a pointer.
This is true of Assembler too, of course and even Java, since the "garbage collection" feature of the latter isn't as perfect as people are led to believe.
Even Basic let you "peek" and "poke" into memory. Opportunity coupled to a problem.
Have you ever coded in C? Do you even understand what a buffer
overflow is, or how you would maliciously trigger one to exploit
a hole in a piece of software?
AFAIK the "bent-over card" loophole was closed several years
ago. The reporter may have gotten the story wrong. The bug
was discussed here at length. You could consider it a "security
hole", but it is not one that is related to bounds checking,
buffer overflows or the like.
I can, though I spell it with an a.
Given the history of the NYC subways, vandalism should have been expected. Machines that aren't immune to all but the most violent of vandals (those with sledge hammers or dynamite) are just designed poorly.
Arti
Arti
The old system didn't have discounts for multiple purchases or subway-bus transfers. You probably end up ahead anyway. If it's really a problem, pay with change.
Kind of.
«You probably end up ahead anyway. »
That's what I figure + occasional free ride due to malfunctioning fare box.
Arti
Legislation is pending in Albany to elevate the crime to a misdemeanor. Even so, police officers made 2,033 arrests for fare swiping last year, with the monthly arrest average jumping from 134 to 194 after tokens were eliminated. Officers also issued 1,600 summonses for fare swiping.
Paul J. Browne, the chief spokesman for the New York City Police Department.
It already is a misdemeanor, why is the TA wasting the Legislature's time.
Then why go to Albany to make a new law to make swiping a misdemeanor. First, it's already a misdemeanor. If they read NYS Consolidated Laws they would know it. Second, what's the difference in not prosecuting a misdemeanor as opposed to not prosecuting a violation?
David
If that was the case, swipers would jam the MVM's. Then stand at the turnstiles and collect from the customers. At a busy station they would clean up. Of course TA wouldn't get any of the moneys. The moneys would go into the swiper's pockets. A true case of theft of service. The Point of the turnstiles is to collect fares.
As for the MTA, it should expand the permanent Metrocard program (with fares deducted monthly from checking accounts/credit cards a la EZ Pass). My wife will be getting a monthly metrocard in the mail from her Transit Check program. A permanent Metrocard, replaced every 3 years or so, would be better.
Douce Man replied:
If that was the case, swipers would jam the MVM's. Then stand at the turnstiles and collect from the customers.
If turnstiles were letting people in for free, why would anyone pay some scam artist to let them in? Are they trolls under bridges?
A few less-intelligent people and a few out-of-towners might fall for it, but in the end, it would be LESS profitable for the scammers than breaking all of the MVMs is now. But for all that, it still wouldn't discourage the scam: scammers would just need to break fewer machines, or sell swipes at a slight discount.
And at the same time, people who wouldn't ordinarily run the swiping scam might be motivated by the prospects of free rides for the cost of vandalizing a few machines.
Mark
Because the few less-intelligent people and a few out-of-towners know the subway isn't free and they have to pay somehow. The swipers at the turnstiles would be doing hand collections insisting the customer pay them instead of the Agent in the booth.
Install survalance cameras at stations with frequant issues
In addition have the machines report back to central their status. this will allow quicker tracking and repairs plus create a vandalizm profile to add survallace cameras
The new legislation with escualting penalties similar to moving violations where the fine increases with each violation will deter 95% of the fare swipers
MVM's are the best thing to hit the subways in years. It removers the need to deal with rude station agents
Mark
Correct. It's 18 minutes IIRC. But if you buy a bunch of unlimited ride Metro Cards, and rotate through them, you can swipe people through at a pretty fast clip and make money.
"Not only do the swipers often offer a discoubnt. they are also the only way that i can enter the station."
I have a better way. If I see that happening (no way to pay and get in) I contact a police officer to arrest the swipers and remove them from the station. The officers can then let me through (I give them the fare or they might just wave me through).
The machines still have to be fixed, of course.
And how much time would that take? Too Long. Besides. I really dont have a problem with them using a loophole in the systemto their and more importantly to me, MY advantage. why is is any different than them themselves using the card?
"Besides. I really dont have a problem with them using a loophole in the systemto their and more importantly to me, MY advantage"
It isn't to your advantage. There is no loophole there. It hurts you in the long run, and by cooperating with them you help them harm other people. These swipers are not nice people, they don't care about you, and if they felt safe doing it, it would be no big deal for them to hurt you and steal your money.
You don't know what else they are doing.
If I hit you over the head to take your Metrocard, that is definitely to my advantage, since I get your Metrocard, and I am taking advantage of the "loophole" that no cop is watching to see me do it. Why should I care if you have to go to the hospital? Big deal. Insurance or the city will pay for the ambulance anyway.
Do you think I should behave like that?
I am NOT going to waste that much time calling for the cops to punish a community service.
It isn't to your advantage. There is no loophole there. It hurts you in the long run, and by cooperating with them you help them harm other people. These swipers are not nice people, they don't care about you, and if they felt safe doing it, it would be no big deal for them to hurt you and steal your money.
So... I dont see how this is in any way swiper specific.
The rest of the post has nothing to do with the topic either.
Do you have a problem with their vandalizing taxpayer-funded equipment so they can ply their "trade"?
If you want the fare to be free, you can write your elected officials (city council, state assembly/senate, etc.) and ask that taxes be used to cover 100% of the cost. Then rides would be free, and you wouldn't need a MetroCard at all. If they refuse to help you with this, and you think it's important enough, you can tell them you won't vote for them in the next election.
Mark
Another way of combatting swiping, though not a complete solution, would be to require people to have valid MetroCards in their possession at all times when within fare control.
I consider them to be a menance.
Mark
That situation does not exist. It's imaginery. Every situation that looks like that is caused by the swiper breaking the machine himself.
David
At my home station, Newkirk Av, there are a few 'swipers' and have offered me $2 siwpes a few times and I don't know if they deliberately mess up the machines. The MVM's break down fequently and many times BOTH machiens don't work and I see a transit worker tend to the machine every week. However I won't say that its all swipers causing the sabotage, we just don't know.
If those people weren't there, there WOULD be a way to purchase fare media, to wit, the MVMs. The "swipers" are the ones causing the MVMs to become unusable (I won't say "broken," because that implies an electrical and/or mechanical defect -- this is deliberate sabotage), thus creating the situation in which people are unable to purchase MetroCards and therefore must either rely on the "swipers" to let them in, have the "swipers" arrested and have a Police Officer allow them entry, or go to another station or entrance.
I fail to see what the "community service" is here.
David
Mark
Crime stopping is OVER so we can watch for terrorists. :(
You'd *think* we'd add "a 100,000 cops" ala Clinton ... nope - we're digging deeper spiderholes on MARS for VP "Dick" instead. Wonder WHY these people get away with it? It's OPEN SEASON for crime! Can't let terrorists see the BIG BOARD, and we're too busy looking for weapons of mass distraction to be BOTHERED with muggers and "petit larceny." :(
Mark
I don't know about the higher fare. But the customer is more likely to take advantage of the reduced fare than the normal fare. Maybe I misunderstood you somewhere.
Mark
I consider them to be a menance.
I agree with you with respect to the unlimited ride metro cards. But I see nothing wrong with someone buying a volume discount pay-per-ride card and selling the individual swipes for $2.00 making a profit on the difference.
Years ago in the days before E-Z Pass when tokens were still sold on the Triborough Bridge there were individuals who would purchase the tokens at volume discounts and then re-sell the individual tokens to cars waiting on the cash lines, making a profit on the difference. IIRC this activity took place with the full knowledge of the TBTA.
Would this be acceptable? In not what is the difference?
No difference, both are illigal.
But it is still cheaper for the MTA in both cases because the cost of addtional station agents and toll both clerks outweight the revenue lost.
Station agents cost more then they sell on the average day. The fact that people buy at least 10 rides at a time and 50% of the riders have monthly passes which they buy at MVM's(for the insurance) makers the cost of having station agents to deter swipers (which they don't) costlier then letting the swiper swipe away.
The solution is stricter penalities and automated enforcement. Recoed the swiper on camera and then have a police officer sweep in and charge him with multiple counts.
Be consistant and you put them right out of business. Also install hidden camera's on freuently vanalized MVM to catch vandals. A simple alarm sound when the bill hopper gets jammed is also fairly effective.
Yes, some people with wet bills will trigger the alarm, but that is not the end of the world
No difference, both are illigal.
I'm not so sure the TBTA token re-selling was illegal - it was done IN FULL VIEW and with the implied consent of the MTA police...
For something to be legal it must have express written consent. Implied Oral Consent only works in international waters.
LincolN's answer? Who cares as long as I can get on the subway.
95% of riders on any given day do
over 50% of riders have unlimitied rider monthly metrocards.
As much as the swipers steal, it is this far less then having a station agent selling fares
The solution having graduated penalties for swipers and install digital survalance camera's that can be used to peocecute all illegal swipers
David
The maintaince of the machines is essential to elliminating more useless station agent positions.
It needs to be a two prong aproach
Maintainace and enforcement.
Once the enforcement of vandalism is handled, a more precise maintance schedual can be put together baised on mvm usage data. Some stations will bennifit from more MVM's to reduce the maintance intervals.
I see a machine out of single rides or cash hopper full a testiment of riders liking the MVM's. Walk into any station in manhattan three out of four people buying fares go to the MVM.
David
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry for the delay in posting, I have been away and/or off-line now for a few weeks.
Anyway, the last 14 R-40Ms (4530-4533, 4536-4543, 4548/4549) left East New York for Coney Island last week. I was given a date of January 26, 2004 (feels nice to write that) and the move was confirmed on January 29.
There is still no confirmaton on what will go where for the Manhattan Bridge reopening, but this transfer is very likely related to it.
The "rumblings" have been that approximately 36 R-68s will be moved from Coney Island to Concourse for the D (and CCY will also start taking lay-ups from Coney Island for the B, of course). The remaining R-40Ms along with some R-42s will go from East New York to Coney Island to replace them.
For those wondering how it is East New York can suddenly spare a bunch of cars, they have been effectively replaced by the 208 R-143s, but final transfer was delayed by the R-42 Floor Replacement Program. The fleet at East New York has historically been in the 560-570 range, and with all of the R-143s running (except that last CBTC Test unit), ENY has been overinflated to 612 cars for almost a year.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
avid
avid
A smoky fire at the Herald Square subway station sent people scrambling to the street early this morning.
Nobody was injured in the blaze which broke out on an escalator inside the station at 34th Street and Sixth Avenue at about 12:40 a.m., fire officials said. It was put out about 20 minutes later.
Noxious smoke billowed from a below-ground escalator that connects the upper level of the station to the lower level. Scores of commuters had to be evacuated from the platform.
Power was never cut at the station, but trains on the D, F Q and W lines had to be re-routed for about 40 minutes, MTA spokesman Mark Groce said.
The cause of the fire is under investigation.
Ilan Kayatsky and Jamie Schram
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
But...
The Daily News criticized its expenditure last week. Do we need a $2B terminal for a commuter line whose furthest venture to the west is Newark, NJ?
I'd say not; to be blunt, the extravagant terminal is being constructed because of what happened there 2 1/2 years ago, not for any great need for one.
Actually, the 'temporary' station there now is rather spiffy, and with some modifications, can be made permanent.
OTOH, Penn Station, which connects NYC with the rest of the country, deserves a more grandiose building, and one has been on the drawing board for years, but the Post Office doesn't want to vacate the proposed space.
Actually, I'd rather scrap the Calatrava hub and the transit hub on Broadway and use the billions to build the LIRR tunnels to Manhattan from Brooklyn and Queens, and build the SAS.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Congress made that impossible.
How, and why?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Don't like it? Go back in time and persuade your elected offficials to do differently. This was a lower-Manhattan rebuild appropriation, not a "do whatever you want" appropriation.
The time to debate this was three years ago. Now it's just mental masturbation.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Perhaps it would have been better if USDOT had handed over an appropriation with more flexibility. (??? that can have drawbacks too - maybe we'd all end up just debating different projects and nothing would get done. Focus has its pluses)
But the agency did not, and the local political leadership, instituting a very focused rebuilding plan with public support, produced the plans to spend it. Ce la vie.
At the very least, the benefit of spending the money to build the Calatrava station will start to erase the eyesore of the current hole in the ground.
Does that cause your mind's eye to go blind?
(only if you don't use protection)
:0)
Now, you could argue, notwithstanding its broader scope, that the Calatrava terminal is an extravagance. But you need to ask yourself, Why do we build great civic structures? Why is Grand Central Terminal so grand? For that matter, why is City Hall so grand? Why is the main post office at 8th & 34th so grand? In every case, the function could have been served by simple utilitarian structures. Yet, in all of those cases (and many others I could name) we built great buildings.
If you believe none of those structures should have been built, then you are at least consistent. But there is plenty of precedent for building great architecture for civic purposes, when utilitarian structures would've done the job. It goes back as far as the Egyptian pyramids, the Greek temples, and the Roman coliseum. I would guess it is ingrained in human culture that we want (or most of us want) to make great public structures grander than just their basic function would strictly require.
Well, their scopes, ie. their coverage areas, were similarly grand. GCT served the whole country; City Hall was built for a city only recently relieved of its status as US Capitol; the main PO serves the USA as well.
I can't compare the Calatrava terminal to the Egyptial pyramids.
The Calatrava terminal will serve PATH and the ferries, as well as link to the other transit hub on Broadway. But it's pretty much a local depot. Even if they do tunnel the LIRR under there or link JFK (I doubt it) your scope would be extended only as far east as Greenport and Montauk.
Calatrava's extravagant structure broadly outstrips its function.
www.forgotten-ny.com
www.forgotten-ny.com
GCT never served Phila, Wash DC, and points south. Amtrak removed Albany/Buffalo trains from GCT relatively recently, but removed Boston trains early on.
IMO the money could be better spent on connecting PATH to the Lexington local line, as recently discussed, assuming of course that the connection is feasible and that it could be built for $2 billion (including a non-terminal WTC subway station).
That plan is best described on this New Jersey Association of Railroad Passengers (NJ-ARP) site.
Terminal stations are generally not a good idea for urban lines, as there is the problem of distributing people to places other than the terminals. For example you can look at the problems of distributing people from the numerous London terminals.
In Lower Manhattan two terminals, PATH WTC and the City Hall loop, happen to be aligned in such a way that they could be connected, giving a through route which would be more useful than two terminating lines separated by a quarter-mile gap.
Truth is that $2 Billion would not cover HALF the estimated $5 Billion of the estimated cost of building a new LIRR tunnel connecting the Atlantic Ave branch to Lower Manhattan, and $2 Billion would be a drop in the bucket with regards to the SAS.
The fact is the Feds gave the Port Authority the $2 Billion to improve upon what was destroyed on September 11th, not to build an entirely new rail line to Long Island.
To fund a LIRR connection to Lower Manhattan and or to fund the SAS the City and State have to go through the normal process of submitting planning and enviromental analysis to the DOT who passes it recomendation on to Congress and the President who can include it in a budget.
Alot of groups are upset at the abuse of the September 11th funds and Liberty bonds that are being used by the City and State for things other than what it was intended, the NY Times who is building a new Office tower in Mid-Town and who were planning to build the tower before 9-11 applied for the money and were approved by the City. The MTA is using some of the 9-11 money to rebuild and reconfigure the South Ferry Station, $450 Million.
The $2 Billion for the new World Trade Center hub at the World Trade Center is not all going towards the construction of the structure Santiago Calavatrava designed, the $2 Billion includes under ground concourses connecting the World Financial Center, World Trade Center and Fulton Street MTA complex.
Excellent point. You presented the legal and political situation better than I did.
This isn't quite true. The total Federal commitment is more like $5.5bn. Of that sum, quite a bit is being spent on facilities that weren't damaged on 9/11. Lest we forget, this was very controversial. Some people thought that the Federal government should only pay the costs of putting things back exactly as they were. I, for one, am grateful that our leaders showed a bit more imagination.
I think, within reason, New York could have gotten the green light to spend the $5.5bn on practically any infrastructure that was plausibly related to the revitalization of Lower Manhattan. Understandably, there was heavy debate about which projects should make the cut. Pataki even tried to get a high-speed rail link to Schanectady in the mix. That one got dropped pretty quickly.
As recently as December, Sen. Schumer suggested that we have our priorities wrong, and projects such as the South Ferry rehab should be dropped in favor of spending more money on the JFK connection. The main problem is that, by most estimates, this project could easily cost $5.5bn all by itself. Do we want to shoot the whole wad on one project? I don't think so.
I believe there were also several groups who clamored for a PATH-IRT connection to be in the mix. As others have noted here, there are serious constructability issues, and I believe this project would cost a whole lot more than is now allocated for the Calatrava terminal. Also, for it to be possible, significant funds would need to be spent on PATH and subway infrastructure outside of the Lower Manhattan arena (rolling stock, signalling, etc.).
I don't think it would have been politically possible to allocate rebuilding funds to the SAS, because the SAS was an existing project before 9/11, and most of the costs & benefits of the SAS are north of Lower Manhattan.
It was not possible to do that once the appropriation was in place and DOT had handed over the check. That money must now be spent as specified.
Reminds me of this recent story: Joan Kroc, the McDonald's heirress, left$2 billion to the Salvation Army specifiocally for building community centers, definition of which is very narrowly written. Newspaper accounts seem to indicate that the some in the Salvation Army are not thrilled with that definition - but there's not much they can do about it (other than refuse the money entirely, which won't happen).
Wrong. Unlike some other projects that were seriously considered, the SAS was never a serious candidate for inclusion in the appropriation, and it would have been a severe political blunder to do so.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, it was a stretch to get Congress to fund projects like the South Ferry and Fulton St rehabs that go beyond rebuilding what was destroyed. But at least these projects are targeted at the revitalization of Lower Manhattan.
The SAS was already an ongoing project on 9/11, and the majority of its costs and benefits are uptown. If the SAS had been part of the proposal, it would seriously have undermined New York's credibility—much like the Governor's Schanectady link, which he (quite wisely) yanked it off the table.
I did, and have, and do. You've got the order of events backwards. "Period."
Until you research it, you won't know. And you haven't.
It's fair to try to re-establish the Lower Manhattan connection. When I walked through the temporary PATH station, with that huge space, I got excited for the first time since I saw Grand Central -- and that's just from the concrete barn (I never saw the PATH station before 9/11/01). I think an exciting symbol of the NJ-Financial District link is a good use of 9/11 money.
I like the fact that Light will reach the tracks, but the bright and seemingly white tone of everything doesn't fit in with a train terminal, where grime will certainly set in quickly.
One thing that makes Grand Central so great is all the shops inside it. With all the retail already planned elsewhere in the site, I can't see the same thing for this downtown terminal. At least the fact that it reaches 150' in the air means that people will be able to find it relatively easy.
Calatrava is one of my favorite architects practicing in the world today, so of course, I'm very biased. I'm strongly in favor of his scheme for the PATH terminal, and I think it's by far the best design of anything that's been presented for the WTC site so far.
As for the price tag, well, ce la vie. $2 billion is a lot of money, but given the signifigance of the site and the number of people who will be using this facility, I think it's worth it. I'm convinced that Calatrava's PATH terminal will become one of the city's foremost architectural masterpieces and will likely be a destination in itself. 50 years from now, I doubt people will be all that concerned with the price tag. And besides, it's federally funded. A billion here and a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money.
Based on the slide presentation on the Porth Authority website (see link below), about the only real complaint I have is that the interior space looks a bit too stark and white. However, this is probably just how it was rendered. With some well-placed small retail kiosks and some indoor trees, it would be a lively and beautiful space.
I tend to agree with Kevin Walsh's point about Penn Station, though. However, I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. If Amtrak and the MTA had any sense (and a couple billion in funding), first thing they'd do is knock down MSG and that hideous office tower, and hire Calatrava or another architect of similar caliber to design a proper gateway to the city in place of the current rat maze.
I'm not familiar enough with the Farely Post Office plans to comment on the proposed design scheme, but my biggest issues with the idea have to do with the location: It's a full long block further west from Midtown, and I still have a hard time seeing how they'd connect with the platforms that are under the existing station.
Here's that PowerPoint presentation of the new PATH transit hub. (Note: Best to save this to your hard drive before attempting to view.)
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
"Based on the slide presentation on the Porth Authority website (see link below), about the only real complaint I have is that the interior space looks a bit too stark and white. However, this is probably just how it was rendered. With some well-placed small retail kiosks and some indoor trees, it would be a lively and beautiful space. "
Not every detail has been worked out yet. It would be perfectly OK for you to make a written suggestion to the PA and to Calatrava's firm in that regard. Your being an architect does give you some professional credibility here.
The worst they can do is ignore your letter. Bt who knows? Maybe somebody will agree witb you. You lose nothing except the postage stamp and envelope.
It's so white and airy, it seems like so much wasted, empty space. The old PATH station concourse was full of shops, and always seemed to be well trafficked. There's nothing in the new PATH station. Just a lot of air and white.
And, like the earlier post said, how will you keep all that white clean?
The old Penn was actually colored PINK when they built it. But they let the grime accumulate, which contributed to the decision to raze it. They just didn't want to clean it, among other things...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I suspect that's just because of the particular renderings they presented. In architectural renderings, it's common practice to delete all the "stuff" that distracts from the architecture itself. Also, since the renderings are computer-generated, such "stuff" adds massively to the processing time and the size of the drawing files, so it's often left out.
Once the station is actually built, I'd be very surprised if it didn't include some retail shops, newstands, plants, seating, and other things that make it a lively urban space, rather than just a museum gallery.
And, like the earlier post said, how will you keep all that white clean?
Based on many of Calatrava's previous transit projects, I'm assuming the surfaces will be made of cast concrete, which won't be quite as harsh of a white color as shown in the renderings, and won't need freequent cleaning. However, if the exposed white surfaces are made of certain newer materials like Alucobond™ metal panels or Neopariés™ glass-ceramic panels, then keeping the place clean should be as simple are occasionally wiping it down with a soapy cloth. Another possibilty would be using a light-colored granite for the exposed surfaces, which wouldn't be as pure of a white, but would be a high-quality finish and shouldn't need frequent cleaning.
My guess: The underground surfaces will be made of cast concrete, while the above-ground structure will be made of white metal. But time will tell...
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
The $2 Billion was the Port Authority's share, the rest is the City.
Thought that the city was broke . . . ?
Rather like a barnacle with feeding-combs extended, I thought.
"Actually, I'd rather scrap the Calatrava hub and the transit hub on Broadway and use the billions to build the LIRR tunnels to Manhattan from Brooklyn and Queens, and build the SAS"
Nothing for the New Jersey side, eh? No thought to joining the NJ Transit Hoboken Division with the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Line . . . ?
There are several ways to complete the above sentence, and I agree with all of them at least in principle.
Rail terminals offer a unique opportunity to create impressive architecture. However people are forced to use the terminals even if their destinations lie elsewhere. This creates bottlenecks and crowding on the distributor lines that serve them.
A better solution is to build through routes wherever possible rather than terminals. An excellent example is the RER in Paris, a network of commuter lines passing through the city center in order to eliminate the need to use rail terminals.
In the case of the PATH terminal, one solution (already proposed) is to connect PATH to the Lexington local line, thus connecting the line terminating at the Hudson loop to the line terminating at the City Hall loop, eliminating two terminals.
SEPTA has an element of RER to it - look at the way the commuter tunnel functions.
In fact, LIRR has a minor element of the RER: Consider that LIRR trains serve a busy junction like Mineola, the Jamaica, then Penn or Atlantic Av (and within 10 years, GCT). These are not close together like SEPTA's.
Or how about 125 St and then GCTfor Metro-North?
However, this does not mean that the terminal system is wrong for New York, in part because there are so many of them. Grand Central, Penn Station, 125 Street, Fulton-WTC (in a few years), Jamaica, Atlantic Avenue. All in all they serve NYC very well.
London has thirteen terminals, and they usually bring you from your suburban starting point to within a mile or two of your central destination. Then you take the tube. This results in the inconvenience of changing trains and overcrowding on the tube. New tube lines were built to relieve overcrowding but the inconvenience remained. The Crossrail plan is intended to overcome this problem, like the RER does for Paris.
In New York the exact same problem exists. East Side Access is a small step in the right direction, in that it will help by taking you to a less inconvenient terminal. But wouldn't it be even more convenient if the same trains could stop at (say) Grand Central, Times Square, Penn station and Hoboken. If you split the service between multiple terminals, as at Penn and Flatbush Avenue, the frequency of service has to be reduced.
The original reason for building rail terminals was that business interests opposed railways in business districts. So terminals were built elsewhere, on the edges of the business districts. When railways were electrified and put underground, that reason no longer applied, and terminals became tiresome bottlenecks where masses of people had to transfer to crowded subways.
For these reasons I oppose building a terminal in any case where a through line could be built instead and be more useful.
Well, if Grand Central and Penn are ever connected, that would be an additional step in the RER-style direction. An additional twwo tracks under the Hudson would help too.
There was an article in the Stamford Advocate this morning (sorry, don't have a link) about how the Connecticut riders (poor babies) are starting to get fed up with the winter breakdowns and lack of communication. It says that the New Haven rolling stock was delivered in 1973 and the trains have a life expectancy of twenty years. Is this substantially correct?
The first sentence is correct.
The second is a matter of opinion. Most aging equipment can be repaired and refurbished until the structure gets so rusty it's unsafe.
Certainly the seats are no less comfortable than they were 30 years ago (they weren't great then, they're not great now).
If door motors burn out due to snow getting into the works, that's a design flaw, not an aging issue.
I've personally seen nothing convincing that says the MNRR fleet can't be repaired and has to be junked. And unlike most other people here, I ride it every day.
If they don't slick down the seats when they clean them, they're comfortable enough, and not too many are falling off. Unlike the LIRR in its worst days a couple decades ago, when, apparently, you could barely sit down for the condition of the seats.
IF the equipment had been maintained, 30 years is not critical. 40 is the operative limit.
BUT, there was no maintenance during the various fiscal crises - the early to mid 70's, the early 80's, the late 80's and early 90's. And, many of the parts are no longer made.
So, what you have is a situation where Connecticut (which pays 60% of the capital costs) must (a) spend $$$ for emergency repairs, (b) spend $$$ to rehab the aging fleet for another five years of service, and (c) spend $$$ to buy replacement equipment which, because of the special order, will not arrive until 2009 at the earliest.
I must admit I'd never heard about that. So what happens if a part that is no longer made fails? They just move the car to the yard and cannibalize it for parts?
Is that cost-effective?
I like to know where all this money is going to come from? If you think about it, 2009 is FIVE LONG YEARS away so they better get used to the delays.
I hear these same complaints with NJ Transit riders who use the Main Line and ride the Path with me in the morning. Folks. If you live in the burbs, why are you working in the city? I don't get it how people can subject themselves to living all the way out there and spend so much money and time commuting to the city. The stress of a mandatory train schedule and unreliable service would be too much.
Same reason (in reverse) some of us live in the city and work in the burbs.
Like to live in the city. Found a job in the burbs. Prefer commuting to moving.
This does not mean I advocate that we rebuild them and use them for another 30 years. But they are still here and functioning, no doubt.
I know a bunch of you are interested in NYC signage, lamps, etc. in addition to trains (there's even the whole Forgotten NY page dedicated to them).
I, for one, would like to see some of the more ornate, classic lampposts come back.
Well, not EVERYBODY has heard of
www.forgotten-ny.com
- Illuminated street signs that hang over the threshhold of the intersection, indicating the name of the intersecting street.
- Pedestrian traffic lights that count down the number of seconds before the vehicle traffic light changes to yellow.
- If the intersecting street is a state/county/US/Interstate route, have it's appropriate icon and number on the sign as well
- Show street addresses on the signs, and an arrow indicating the direction in which the numbers increase
- Bright lights thatshine down to the street, and not up into the sky.
[- Illuminated street signs that hang over the threshhold of the intersection, indicating the name of the intersecting street.]
--Such large street signs, though maybe not illuminated, are seen in many NY suburbs.
[- Pedestrian traffic lights that count down the number of seconds before the vehicle traffic light changes to yellow.}
-- These are now in Yonkers.
[- If the intersecting street is a state/county/US/Interstate route, have its appropriate icon and number on the sign as well]
--These are seen in New Jersey.
[- Show street addresses on the signs, and an arrow indicating the direction in which the numbers increase]
--Lots of cities have these. In fact, the 34th St. and Grand Central BIDs have installed some in Midtown, and the city has installed them Downtown.
[- Bright lights that shine down to the street, and not up into the sky.]
--Sound like common sense to me.
And now in the city itself, on Hylan Blvd and Eastern Pkwy, these are either already installed on or planned to be installed on Ocean Pkwy, Victory Blvd, Northern Blvd and the Grand Concourse (no, not Queens or Linden Blvds).
Been to Chicago and Washington the last couple of years; both towns have that at selected intersections.
I don't think giving pedestrians a break is in NYC's ethos, though.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Quite agree.
[mandatory on-topic discussion]
Also, I like those stations that have kept their old-time platform stanchions, such as Sheepshead Bay, Qveensborough Plaza and 9th Avenue. The new goose neck lamps don't do it for me though I appreciate he effort.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Now for main CBD's (that would be most streets in Midtown and Downtown) I'd like to see some old fashioned style lights with mercury vapor like those already in use
And for main roads and highways like the LIE in Queens and the West Side highway, I'd go with LPS streetlights like these
Guess MVM's need quite a bit fine tuning to repel those vandals who jam those machines. The quirk in those Metrocards don't help either. I'd suggest to NYCT that 3 consecutive swipes within 30 seconds will automatically deactivate the card for good, and a 1 hour mortarium, instead of the current 18 minutes, for same station use on Unlimited cards.
NOTE: The above link requires free registration to the NY Times Website to read this and many other articles. As a plus for those who are new to the NY Times, you can customize what articles you would like to be sent to your email address every morning, like your morning newspaper delivered and it's free too.
WHAT? So a person should be penalized for dirty slots or poor swipe technique?
and a 1 hour mortarium, instead of the current 18 minutes, for same station use on Unlimited cards.
So what happens if someone realizes they forgot something and have to leave the station? They're stuck for an hour?
You're exactly right.
It did perfectly well without an MTA for over 300 years, 64 of those with a subway.
True. Hoever, I would argue that New York's economy would not be as good as it is if the commuter rail lines were of the quality they were circa 1966, with the Penn Central and LIRR making Manhattan a terrible place to commute to. NYC relies on its suburbs for a vibrant economy, as well as vice versa.
We take our time over things in the UK, but we get there in the end....
Living rough is, I presume, the British term for skell.
Amazing. Not only because of the good luck (would they have been able to determine Mr Fallon’s identity if he had not had the brain operation and therefore an unusual clip?) but also because of the patience of the research over 26 years!
They have... 2004-1987=17. ::-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ask SIR Mick Jagger... :)
P.S. We both have layabouts with titles, but at least we can vote ours out of office. :D
So you come over here and have to face the Internal Revenue Service inspector: much more complicated and time-consuming.
…and not pay US$200 a year just to watch the telly.
…for some programming that assumes I have an intelligence level above that of a gnat. Seriously, I pay about $70/month for some extra channels on a cable system, none of which approach the BBC (of my 20-years-ago memory) in terms of general interest and quality.
And that doesn’t say anything about BBC Radio, though at least I can listen to the majority of that output through the Internet. I would pay money for a subscription BBC Radio service that gave me unlimited access to the Corporation’s output from the last 30 years.
As for Sir Mick Jagger as a layabout with a title, that’s all he got: a title and probably a medal and a certificate signed by Brenda. He doesn’t, thank goodness, get an office with it, so there’s nothing to vote him out of.
Now if you could just get around to voting your current layabouts in office out I would be very grateful…
We do that early and often. The new layabouts are like the old layabouts, but at least they usually look a little different with every new batch.
...and we even have an extra President for people who don't like the current one ... guy named "Bartlett" or something... ;-)
Can you top that???
TV is the only land that man would ever get elected as President.
It was called Canada back in the 1700s also.
History Explorer: "Disaster: No Escape"
Traveling underground can prove extremely dangerous--when subterranean disaster strikes, victims have nowhere to run. On November 18, 1987, 31 people died in London's King's Cross underground (subway) station when a fire started on one of its escalators. Could tighter management have helped avoid the tragedy?
Perhaps it may have lowered the death toll, but having wooden escalators in an underground station was just asking for trouble.
The answer is probably "yes". The fatal combination was: (1) wooden escalators; (2) accumulation of rubbish in the space underneath the escalators (especially newspapers, which are pretty flammable); and (3) permitting smoking on the Tube. Better management would have eliminated number 2. After all, numbers 1 & 3 had been around quite a few years. In fact, the action taken afterwards eliminated numbers 1 & 3. Whether rubbish still accumulates under escalators is hard to say, since those areas are not on public view. In general, cleanliness on the Tube doesn't look too bad, but the newspapers under the escalators may have been the Tube equivalent of brushing the dust under the carpet.
In general wood is a relatively safe material in fires. It tends to char and will eventually burn through, but provided there is enough of it, it maintains its structural integrity much longer than either steel or aluminum.
Why was wood a particular problem in this case?.
It was old (and as such very dry), covered with either varnish or oil-based paint (I don't remember which from the reports I read at the time), and the source of ignition was directly beneath it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So Chris, you'd recommend using steel or aluminum in the fireplace?
1. AirTrain to Howard Beach; A to Penn Station
2. AirTrain to Jamaica; E to Roosevelt; 7 to Woodside
3. AirTrain to Jamaica; E to Roosevelt; 7 to Main (how far to Flushing station? This seems to be the cheapest route.)
4. AirTrain to Jamaica; LIRR to Woodside (only 50 cents more than the subway, and a new ride for me!)
I await with baited breath your responses. Thanks.
Any airplanes you see flying over the station will be headed for LaGuardia, Runway 04.
Then again, you could take a taxi, but that's prohibitively expensive.
Wait for your train on Platform B, and enjoy the ride!
Fast. Lots of Jamaica-Penn trains stop at Woodside, so you won't have to wait long for one at Jamaica.
The RR is better than the subway for any luggage you might have.
Also, connections to the subway are mildly inconvenient at Jamaica and Flushing.
If you take the 7 to Main Street, The LIRR station is 2 blocks south on Main.
If you take the LIRR from Jamiaca to either Woodside or Penn Station for the train to Great Neck, you might have to wait awhile before that train comes in. Port Washington service runs about once an hour.
However, the bus itself is an issue because it's so SLOW! Like I said before, I wouldn't recommend travelling through Flushing. Go via Woodside.
Just remember, PW train run every hour on weekends.
CG
I'd say Option #3 is best:
Take Airtain to Jamaiaca, switch to E to Roosevelt, then #7 to Main St. While on the #7, stay in the middle, by the C/R position.
Getting out at Main St, you will see the elevated LIRR station one block south, go to the Ticket machine FIRST and purchase your ticket before you board the train. Enter from side after passing underneath elevated structure, I thin the machine are also on that side.
CG
"The station combination you have chosen is invalid. Please call the LIRR Travel Information Center at (718) 217-5477 and ask for a representative for more information."
So you have to purchase two seperate tickets.
Tickets like this can be purchased at ticket offices, and I believe the TVM's will sell them as well. I don't know whether or not the WebTicket function will let you buy one (or if it will price it correctly).
Newkirk Plaza David correctly points out that the website gives you an error message when you request a fare for this trip, but they do exist.
CG
If everything ran smoothly, you could get on an AirTrain at 1:57 at JFK, arrive Jamaica at 2:10 or so and then be in Great Neck at 2:57.
CG
Rich
Ben F. Schumin :-)
http://www.newsday.com/other/special/ny-iholi0930story.htmlstory
another school car at Canarsie shot
#3 West End Jeff
But TODAY, "school cars" (which were converted pieces of equipment with "show and tell" bit smounted IN the car (compressor presure gauges, WHICH point in the cam was active, and other great "show and tell" bits) OH, how EASILY us "NYCTA rubes" were fooled by the *ONE* accurate piece of Pelham 123 ... "I'm checkin' the passengers, getting on and off. Front and back. Shuttin' the doors. Rear section first, and front section. And the doors are closed. Now I'm checking my indicator lights to make sure all the doors are locked. I remove my switchkey, go back out the window for a distance of three carlengths to make sure nobody's getting dragged.
TODAY, they have door simulators, back in the day, we had SUBWAY cars with LIVE geese (and supervision - showing us "how to") for "school car" (ride and LEARN) ... gotta love it ...
Door simulator 1
Door simulator 2
For us, it was a simulated platform back on the loop at Coney, a dummy setup at 14th Street, and of course the grand "off-sides" opening ceremonies. :)
We got the yahd training and got to ride with a "real" conductor - much like the scene out of "Pelham" ... then, turned loose on the unsuspecting with our set of keys and the book of sayings of the Chairman, along with our Mickey Mouse watch. Heh.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Robert
Gs 1 through 3 being AMUE, SMEE, and R44/R46 cannibalized "old new tech?"
Mark
What was contract R-130?
Basically visual appearance.
The G4 cars have electronic signs, automated announcements, and interior strip maps that light up.
G3 cars have a large end rollsign opposite the motorman's cab and originally came with side rollsigns that fit in one of the side windows.
G2 cars originally came with end rollsigns above the end door, and side rollsigns next to the windows, with a place for them built into the walls of the car.
G1 cars didn't have end rollsigns (with the exception of a few BMT car types), and didn't come in under an R contract.
As for the end, so far I only remember seeing A, H, Far Rockaway, and World Trade Center.
What model do you have?
205 Street
Bronx
Bedford Pk
Blvd
145 Street
Manhattan
207 Street
Manhattan
168 Street
Manhattan
36 Street
Brooklyn
57 Street
6 Avenue
21 Street
Queensbridge
57 Street
7 Avenue
Queensboro
Plaza
Ditmars
Blvd
Queens
Plaza
71 Av
Continental
179 Street
Queens
Jamaica
Center
Eastern
Parkway
8 Avenue
14 Street
Metropolitan
Avenue
121 Street
Queens
Essex
St
Chambers
St
Franklin
Av
Broad
Channel
Euclid
Avenue
Rockaway
Shuttle
Rockaway
Park
Far
Rockaway
Lefferts
Blvd
Grand
St
34 Street
6 Avenue
World Trade
Center
Bay
Parkway
9 Avenue
Brooklyn
Broad
St
Myrtle
Av
Rockaway
Parkway
Prospect
Park
Brighton
Beach
Coney
Island
Kings
Highway
Church
Av
Smith
9 Street
95 Street
Brooklyn
Whitehall
St
Quite welcome... I'll see what I can do.
They were all in the same typeface
Shuttle
Special
Not In
Service
There are some good pictures of Public service's elevated trolley line that travelled the Palisades from Jersey City into Hoboken.
Folks. I don't know if you realize how long the journey is to get from Palisade Avenue in Jersey City to the Hoboken terminal today using NJ Transit buses! I estimate you'll probably spend about an hour and a half between waiting for the bus and the time it actually gets down the Palisade to the Hoboken terminal during rush hour. It was actually a faster commute 50 years ago than it is today!
http://www.lightrailnow.org/
I don't know that I'd go far enough as to call it a Holocaust, especially given all the other connotations given to that word by contemporary events in the world at around the same time. How about we just leave it at 'National City Lines takeover and liquidation'? Sure some trolleys were destroyed in fires to keep their systems from being operated again, but most of the systems were just sold for scrap, much more of a liquidation of assets. NCL was in it for the money, and they weren't going to keep a billion dollars worth of scrap steel in the form of rails, copper in the wire and assorted equipment from the trolleys out of their pocket by just burning and melting it all down then throwing it out.
Those !@#holes made a mint off the destruction of 50 years of investment in transit infrastructure. Enron, Parmalat and the other corporate scandals pale in comparison to NCL's folly. While Enron and the others affected stock prices for maybe 5-10 years top, causing a few small investors to lose their shirts, and causing a few million people to have to work a few more years before retirement. NCL's wholesale destruction of the trolley system and their insane profiteering off that destruction have caused a social, economic and even political schism that we're only now taking the first steps to repair, more than 50 years down the road. There can be little doubt that this schism has affected every person born in the US in the past 50 years in some way, at least half those people in a major way, given that the US has some 300 million people in it today, it would not be stretching the truth to say that around one billion people in the US have been affected for better or worse. I strongly suspect worse, given my own observations of life in a car oriented suburb, and life in a transit supported city neighborhood, which are, admittedly quite thin evidence.
Also remember that the #7 Trolley survived to become the NCS of today, and now they're righting the wrongs of the past to semi-reinstate lines long past branching off the NCS trunk.
It was actually a faster commute 50 years ago than it is today!
You're largely preaching to the choir, nobody should have to tell a railfan (or even a transitfan, provided that transitfan is for efficient transit) that buses suck. Here's hoping for a HBLRT MOS 4 and 5 driving the LRV lines deep into NJT bus territory and putting some of those MCIs out of work (or even crossing the hudson in a Muni-Metro/63rd St-like tunnel [a 4-tube tunnel for NJT? commuter in the bottom two, HBLRT in the top?], obviating the need for NJT's PABT buses). Or NCS and NERL getting expanded, perhaps southwest of the city, putting more buses out of work. I also got my currently crazy plot for a Camden Trolley system, can't forget South Jersey, no matter how hard the north tries!
At least NJT is one of a few TAs in the country who is really trying to make LRT work, righting past wrongs, and also make sure it's integrated into their other modes of transit (such as Hoboken Term and Jersey City linked by LRV). The only other system I can think of to come into being in the past 20 years would be TriMet in Portland, and they have the advantage of being a growing town as opposed to a grown town, as well as having nearly fanatical land usage laws which make suburban sprawl very undesirable (for the developer for a change).
Now we just need to get SNJTLRTS operating, prove it's worth, expand it to Gloucester City at least, and send it to Ewing and the West Trenton R3 Station.
I spoke to a cab driver in Bayonne and he told me the HBLR took away 20 pecent of his business. Many residents used to cab from Bayonne to the Newport mall and now use the lightrail. I also discovered that NJ Transit has experienced a lower ridership on the express bus line that takes riders from Bayonne into Manhattan as a result of the HBLR.
This is all good news.
Could someone shed some light on this baffling situation?
Also, what is the point of putting a green "R" sign and a "GT 35" sign in exactly the same spot facing the same direction on the same track? I believe I saw this somewhere around Jefferson St(Ave?) station.
There would have been a diamond X-over south of the 6th Avenue station. Otherwise, operation was similar to what is now at 8th Av, without that relay track.
The marker signals, IIRC, are Q1-18 and Q2-18. They probably figured that now that you're on QW, it no longer needs to be displayed.
The GT sign indicates that there are timers as you enter the station. Probably, the sign is there because the timers clear at such a slow speed a number is not necessary.
Those are my assumptions.
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Hopefully they'll cut any plans to re-signal, re-switch and close any towers. NORTH PHILADELPHIA is hanging on by its knuckles, it needs all the help it can get
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02022004.shtml#Damn
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Damn this whole "Winter" thing, why couldn't we have seen it comming. WHY, WHY, OH GOD WHY!!!
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02022004.shtml#Snow
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Shit, I hope I can get home on Friday for my ski trip.
AEM-7 locomotives are doing reasonably well under the circumstances. 19 were out of service last week, which is 37 percent – six more than Amtrak's “goal.” Six were out for scheduled maintenance, but the same could not be said of the15 HHP-8s. Ten were out of service; and only two for scheduled maintenance. Amtrak’s goal is four HHPs out of service t any one time.
A report from the Midwest said that Amtrak contacted a major private car owner to see if he had any cars available for lease to Amtrak so they would have sufficient equipment to protect. He didn't. Currently, 112 active roster passenger cars are out of service on the Northeast Corridor. 18 are Acela Express, leaving 94 conventional cars out of service. Of those, 44 are for scheduled maintenance.
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I lost track of this TEA thing like months ago.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02022004.shtml#Capon
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Wen we set out to fuck up a country we don't take any half steps do we :-)
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02022004.shtml#Iraqis
Or better still, since no one's seen an pics of the M-1's actually being scrapped, maybe they're headed to Iraq. Now Iraqis can travel from Basra to Baghdad in M-1 push pulls and hear over the P.A. in their native tongue the words "engineer......can I have a M.A. reset please !"
Bill "Newkirk"
Seriously, I would doubt that our surplus equipment would work very well in Iraq. How well environmentally sealed is it against dust?
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Cool, I hope that this new index will actually reported on and not generally ignored.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02022004.shtml#Mineta
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Everybody wants Amtrak, but nobody wants to pay for it, sigh.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02022004.shtml#Corpus
With each muttered curse from a passenger as a missed train rumbles past, the token's flashy, flexible replacement — the centerpiece of an ambitious vision of a 21st-century transit system — is securing its place in the city's landscape as something to complain about.
"It affects everybody," said Rey Labron, 39, a messenger in Harlem, as he stood in line at a subway booth at East 125th Street because all three MetroCard machines in the station were scrolling the red message "Out of Service" on their L.E.D. displays. "It makes you go to work late when you have to wait on a big line."
To be fair, some repairs involve repeated problems at the same machines, and most of the time the machine is not completely out of order. More often, it is not taking bills, or is refusing to dispense single-ride tickets, or is experiencing some other problem that does not make it absolutely impossible to buy a MetroCard - although that may be little solace to the rider whose bill a machine will not take. And often, the problem cannot be blamed on the machine but rather on the scam artists who have tampered with it. With repeats figured in, officials estimate that about one-third of all the machines are getting some type of service each day.
MetroCard machine repairs have nearly doubled since tokens were eliminated in May, and New York City Transit is looking to increase its crew of MetroCard machine maintainers by 60 percent, to 108, at a cost of $3 million, even as many of its other departments endure cutbacks.
Call it the price of change.
The half-century-old subway token was no match for the MetroCard, its high-tech replacement. MetroCards are critical to transit officials' visions of a 21-century subway system, in which riders buy their fare cards from vending machines, follow electronic voices and signs and ride trains that are controlled almost completely by computer. As part of this effort, the transit agency closed 45 subway booths last August, replacing them with MetroCard vending machines. Seventeen more are to close in coming months.
But by now, most New Yorkers are deeply familiar with occasional MetroCard frustration: entire rows of machines out of order; long lines behind the only working machine or the only one that will take cash; getting to the front of the line to have a machine eat your $5 bill or to discover that it will not take your credit card.
"Just give me my token and let me use it," said Darryl Gates, 39, a journeyman at the Fulton Fish Market, looking to buy a single-ride card from a machine that was being fixed on a recent morning.
The root of the problem, officials said, is not the machines themselves but vandalism and the demands of a 24-hour transit system. Over all, they said, the MetroCard system is a huge success. "There's always going to be issues," said Steven Frazzini, vice president of MetroCard program management and sales, pointing out that the machines processed more than 101 million transactions last year. "They're getting a lot of use."
The nation's second-largest municipal rail system is Chicago's, which carries 1.5 million riders a day, compared to more than 4 million in New York. In Chicago, fare cards are sold only through vending machines, and repair crews respond to about 60 calls a day for 340 machines, a spokeswoman for the Chicago Transit Authority said. In Washington, whose subway system transports 650,000 riders a day, fare card machines work 99.6 percent of the time. But Washington's system and parts of Chicago's shut down overnight. All three cities use machines made by the same manufacturer, Cubic Automated Revenue Systems.
After the vending machines' initial rollout in 1999 in New York, they were failing far more often than transit officials had promised - once every 2,000 transactions, instead of every 10,000 transactions. But after some adjustments, the machines now fail at a rate of about once every 12,000 transactions. The number is deceptive because it does not take into account common headaches like the bill handler getting jammed with an old bill.
"A customer has five one-dollar bills, two fives and a ten," said Paul Korszak, assistant vice president of MetroCard sales and customer service. "It just takes one of those out of a sweaty pocket to introduce a jam."
The problems have created more than a few busy days for the mobile teams responsible for keeping the machines running. Louis Maldonado, 39, and his armed partner, Michael Hickman, 61, were camped the other day in front of two machines at the William and Fulton Streets entrance of the Broadway-Nassau subway station. After fixing a half-dozen machines at another station earlier in the morning, they arrived to find the two machines not taking bills.
The problem turned out to be vandalism: Mr. Maldonado reached into both machines and fished out MetroCards stuck in their bill-handling units.
Of 25,382 repairs in December, 16,936 involved the bill-handling unit. About 45 percent of these - or 30 percent of all repairs - were caused by tampering. The tamperer's goal is to break the machine so that riders will be forced to use the services of a person who just happens to be waiting nearby with a handful of unlimited-ride day passes offering to swipe people through for $2.
"They start a transaction," said Antonio Suarez, chief officer of automated fare collection equipment maintenance for the transit agency. "Instead of money, they introduce a card or a foreign object."
"What these guys will do is they will purchase multiples of those cards and just switch them as they're swiping people through and charge them two bucks apiece," said Paul J. Browne, the chief spokesman for the New York City Police Department.
The scam was in full view on a recent afternoon at the station at 125th Streeet and Lexington Avenue, where a group of men jostled to swipe riders through the turnstiles. All three MetroCard machines in the station were out of commission.
Officials say the scam represents an evolution of the extinct art of "token sucking," in which a person would clog the token slot with a matchbook or even glue. After the stymied rider walked away, the token sucker would clamp his lips over the receptacle and suck the token out, then turn around and resell it. The scam produced repair headaches similar to those the transit agency is experiencing with MetroCard. Repair crews used to fix turnstiles at a clip of about 250 a day, about 60 percent of them because of paper stuffed in the token slots.
Some of the swipers of today, as they are nicknamed, have stumbled upon a MetroCard quirk in which someone can bend a discarded card a certain way, then swipe it through a card reader three times quickly and somehow end up with a $2 credit.
A man who called himself Charlie and said he was 31 demonstrated for a reporter at the station at 103rd Street and Lexington Avenue.
"I can make $200 or $300 a day," he said. "This morning, I got here at 11. By 11:30, I made $25. Then I went to 125th Street. Up there, I made $30 in 15 minutes."
"The most I ever did was $250," he said. "That day I worked from 9 in the morning until 5."
Transit officials confirmed the problem but said it had not been fixed because that would make it harder to swipe legitimate cards through the turnstiles.
Officials for Washington's Metro said that their fare card dispensing machines were almost never tampered with and that fare swiping was not a problem, largely because riders were required to insert their fare cards when they went through the turnstiles to the subway and when they exited. Officials in Chicago reported a similar lack of vandalism.
After finishing with the two machines at Broadway-Nassau, Mr. Maldonado and Mr. Hickman moved on to the Chambers Street station of the C and E lines, where swipers had struck as well. Mr. Maldonado had planned to start on the southern end, where one machine was out, but after calling in to his headquarters, he learned of an "all out" condition on the other side. When he arrived, he found three broken vending machines, two of them unable to accept bills and a third unable to accept bills or dispense single-ride cards.
Swipers can be charged only with a transit violation, "unauthorized fare media," which carries a fine of $65 or occasionally a jail sentence of one to two days, Mr. Browne said. Because the crime does not rise to the level of a misdemeanor, he added, an officer must see the fare swiper in the act more than once to make an arrest.
Legislation is pending in Albany to elevate the crime to a misdemeanor. Even so, police officers made 2,033 arrests for fare swiping last year, with the monthly arrest average jumping from 134 to 194 after tokens were eliminated. Officers also issued 1,600 summonses for fare swiping.
Another frequent problem is with what officials call the "fare card transportation module," which processes, encodes and dispenses MetroCards. Problems with the fare card system account for about 13 percent of repairs. The rest are typically for the single-ride-ticket dispenser, the coin-accepting mechanism or the receipt system.
Officials said they had tried to build redundancies. If the bill accepter is not working, customers can use credit cards. If the MetroCard dispenser does not work, they can buy single-ride cards. In the rare case when a machine is completely out of service, they can go to a station agent, or try one of the 600 express machines throughout the system, which take only credit and debit cards and seldom have problems.
But the problems with the bill handler are clearly a concern because about three-quarters of transactions at MetroCard machines are in cash. The best they can do, officials said, is to get to the problems more quickly.
The turnaround time for fixing a machine has improved. Machines were out of order anaverage of 15.7 hours in June, a month after the token was eliminated. That dropped to a low of 10.4 hours in November, largely because officials switched to an overlapping shift system that made sure workers were on hand at busy hours. They also asked their workers to work overtime and added extra weekend crews.
Mr. Maldonado and Mr. Hickman finished up with the three machines at Chambers Street and headed south to the World Trade Center station. Swipers regularly position themselves at the unsupervised entrance, so they decide they should check it before they move on.
Sure enough, five out of six machines had error messages.
"They were here," Mr. Maldonado said.
He set down his bag and got to work.
The New York Times
Thank you for supplying the text anyway.
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I've almost left a number of things on an Amtrak train. When you approach the station there's usually a rush to the exit which can be distracting.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02022004.shtml#Amtrakplays
That is one lucky violinist. Kudos to Amtrak!
Someone was looking after that fellow - and his violin.
The story was covered in detail in Baltimore, and the Amtrak people were rewarded with front row seats at the performance.
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Why the hell is McGoofball acting like such a jackass? I mean he FLIES to DC? What a jerk wasting taxpayer $$ like that.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02022004.shtml#NJ
Read it again. McSleazy took an earlier train. State Senate president Codey flew to DC.
Thank you for supplying the text anyway.
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Nice to see that someone is recognizing Amtrak as a legitimate travel option.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02022004.shtml#Travelocity
Ben F. Schumin :-)
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Jesus!! 1000 5th graders hepped up on doughnuts, bet the crew had fun. I wonder if they had an entire chartered train or something.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02022004.shtml#Train
Thanks for posting that one.
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This is a great programme. I would have definitly taken advantage of it had it been around 5 years ago.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02022004.shtml#Amtrakhelps
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This made the rounds on Trainorders a week or so ago. Anyone who works around freight lines know that any sort of security is a joke. The RoW's are unsecurable. There is simply too much "surface area". It also also fun playing hazmat bingo with trains cause all the tank cars need to be plainly laveled. I also don't know why they are focusing so much on tunnels. A hazmat release inside a tunnel is preferable to one in the open air or alongside a river. Moreover, while local DC leaders are trying to ban rail hazmat shipments through DC they are totally oblivious to the greater danger posed by hazmat trucks. Just 2 weeks ago a typical recklass trucker drove his tanker off an overpass and onto busy I-95 incinerating 4 innoscent drivers in the resulting fireball. Furthermore, most of the really really nasty stuff isn't transported in the bulk qualtities provided by rail tank cars.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02022004.shtml#Graffiti
Tank cars loaded with things like chlorine gas are a hazard -but to focus on one thing and not consider the whole picture is dumb (and all too common).
So we ban hazmat trains only through DC. What happens?
Common idiots would say, The trains will just go around DC instead. Sure they will. That's extra mileage. Extra costs. Companies going to pay a lot more money to ship materials?
Probably not. They're use trucks instead. Now instead of one train, you have what 50+(or however many) trucks going down the highwas of the area. That's real safe, what happens the moment a car cuts off the truck like they do daily? Train hulls are a lot stronger than tankers. I forget how many more layers are involved.
Or, we could just move all the industries that require these chemicals to move to China too.
This is one of these things that sound good at first reading, but when you see the cause and effect, it's going to suck. As Dick would say, "big time".
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For all you who didn't know UP has been showboating over the last month or so. Bah, the challenger couldn't hold a lighted twig to the PRR Q2.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02022004.shtml#Patswin
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What they don't tell you is that you'll be working 29 consecutive 12-hour days.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02022004.shtml#Jobs
Sounds a lot like airline flight attendants - only these guys at least get paid decent salaries...ofcourse I would say they work harder than the airline attendants do, overall.
Not really. Many are paid barely above poverty levels, except for very senior flight attendants.
Anyway, I rode R142 6314, and noticed that the transfer announcements were done by Dianne Thompson (the voice of the 2 line) at almost every transfer stop except for Fulton St, where it was still done by Charlie.
She announced the transfers at Park Place, but they don't sound ANY different (asides the voice)
Charlie: "...transfer is available for the A, C and E trains. Connection is available for PATH trains..."
Dianne: "...transfer is available for the A, C and E trains. Connection is available for PATH trains..."
NO idea why they bothered to re-record. -_-
Then the announcement at Times Sq seems dubious. Dianne announces it as "Transfer is available for the 1, 7, 9, A, C, E, N, R, Q, W and Shuttle to Grand Central..." The way she says it, it makes it seem as if ALL those trains go to Grand Central when it clearly isn't the case.
Final note: the R142s are much easier to record announcements with the PA being pretty loud. Plus all my recordings came out real well (to me at least). It's a shame they were all lost (damn my stupid computer... >=\ )
"Believe it or not, all computers are stupid."
I.A.W.Y.P.A.H (I agree with your post and her.)
>Wow. I never knew Charlie Pellett did station announcements...until now. :)
On the (2) trains with old announcements, Thompson goes:
"This. Is a Bronx-bound (2) express train."
On the (2) trains with new announcements, Thompson goes:
"This is. A Bronx-bound (2) express train."
Ohhh...I think I know why. I'll elaborate later.
And as mr brian said, the old announcements have Charlie doing the transfers, but the new announcements have Thompson doing transfers. (Most of the time, anyway.)
It's the same on the (4) and (6). Charlie used to do ALL of the transfer announcements, but once the new announcements were installed, it was "Miss I Sound Pissed Off" from the (4) doing MOST transfer announcements, but Charlie still does some...especially on weekends. Weird, because some announcements didn't need changing at all, so why re-record them?
And then there's the whole "changing of the (5) voice" thing, and the whole "The next stop is" versus "The next. Stop is" which occurs in the new announcements.....it's all hard to keep up with.
sample1
sample2
sample3
And this is what I felt was the best sound I recorded all day. =p
I just listened to Sample 3, with Thompson announcing the transfers at Times Square, and it's different from when I heard her last time at Times Square!
I clearly remember her putting a strong emphasis on the words TRANSFER and CONNECTION the last time I heard her at Times Square. But this one is different.
And yes, the same transfers were announced.
"This is Times Square - 42 Street. TRANSFER. Is available to the (1)(7)(9)(A)(C)(E)(N)(Q)(R)(W) and Shuttle to Grand Central. CONNECTION. Is available to the Port Authority Bus Terminal."
Nope, definitely not her. The (2) is announced completely by Thompson on the trains with updated announcements, and she teams up with Pellet on the old announcements.
And there's no way to confuse Thompson with Kleiner anyway. They sound WAY different.
"More noticeable improvements for the customer will be better directional signage, more visible and consistent Delta branding, the addition of bus connection to the new Air Train, road repair and more."
Huh? Why would you need a bus to take you across the street to the AirTrain station?
CG
Delta had been planning to build a new terminal to replace T2 and T3, but the idea was dropped after 9/11 before any actual work began. The fact that the airline now proposes to spend $300 million on improvements to the existing structures probably means that the new terminal idea is dead.
T5 is vacant, although JetBlue uses some of its gates for aircraft parking.
I haven't heard much about its ultimate fate -- though the fact that no provision was made to connect it to the AirTrain terminal (the station for Terminals 5 and 6 is right in front of T-6) probably confirms that its days as an inservice terminal are finished.
CG
If it were to be strictly a shopping and restaurant or museum venue, it would still need to offer passengers access from other places in the airport. Somehow, I don't see people on a tight schedule wanting to get on a shuttle bus to go there, eat lunch or dinner, look at the exhibits (I'm being hypothetical here) and then catch the next bus back to AirTrain and thence to a departure gate. Especially if that trip were to involve leaving the "sterile" zone ad having to go through security again.
It was what I flew into the first time I came to NYC, back when there where a couple dozen TWA flights a day, and porters, and ticket agents who took time with you. Obviously it's a problem how you keep a virtual museum running in the middle of an airport. But we've kept a transit museum running right smack in the middle of the world's biggest subway system, haven't we?
One possibility is to connect it to Terminal 6 somehow, much as American Airlines is now dooing with Terminals 8 & 9. You could see it happen if JetBlue keeps expanding.
It may be impractical as a terminal, but it is a work of art.
Amtrak
Alaska Railroad
Airtrain
VIA Rail Canada
Virginia Railway Express
Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority
Washington Metro Area Rapid Transit
MARC
Long Island Rail Road
Deutsche Bahn
Danbury Railroad Museum
Trinity Railway Express
New Jersey Transit
South Florida Regional Transportation Authority
Danbury??
If real...He got a second chance. Hope he got some help.
link
< a href="www.somesite.org" >link< /a >
<ahref="www.somesite.org">link</a>
When I get to work early, I can usually catch one of the last N trains going local on 4th Avenue. This goes through the tunnel, so it takes me to Whitehall, and that's good. Meanwhile, the W goes by express.
Now if the D were local and not the N, if I ended up on a D I'd have to change trains. Meanwhile, the N is still supposed to go through the tunnel overnight.
In any event, can someone tell me what the overnight service pattern will be on 4th Avenue in Brooklyn relative to today?
D - local from 36 to DeKalb from 2239 to 0512
N - local from 59 to DeKalb from 2128 to 0523; through tunnel from 2232 to 0501
All times are departures from respective south terminals - you get to do the running time math to your favorite station.
I will get the D train info this week from BP Tower, if they will let me. Paging Train Dude, beep beep!
I guess that goes with relaying it at 59th.
(D - local from 36 to DeKalb from 2239 to 0512
N - local from 59 to DeKalb from 2128 to 0523; through tunnel from 2232 to 0501)
I usually get down the stairs at, say, 6:40. Unless those running times are much longer than I think they are, it appears that under the new service plan only the R will be on the local of the three.
Does that mean the M will start up earlier, rush hour frequency R service will start up earlier, or a big gap will form?
Sean O'Sullivan story in The News Journal
Unfortunately, the article also says that the end of 2004 may see the end of “slam door” carriages–the ones that passengers can open themselves–on safety grounds.
What happened? Have the British become so stupid that they can’t be relied on not to open the door while the train is not stopped at a station? How did I manage to get to school every day for 5 years without stepping out of the wrong side of the train?
The big problem with the new Southern trains is that they need considerably more power than the trains that they are replacing, resulting in a very costly power upgrading scheme for wherever they are to be used.
The main reason for replacing the slam door trains is that they are old. I'm far from convinced that we really need these replacement heavyweight power guzzling monsters on many of the services that they run, e.g. all stations coastway. Tyne and Wear Metro vehicles are much lighter, very comfortable, and seem to be lasting well enough. Why not use a design like that?
(2) A lot of the problem with new trains is a consequence of the balkanisdation of British Rail into lots of different companies. There was no coherence to the acquisition programme - each company made its own separate choice of what trains to buy. If standard types had been ordered in larger numbers, they wouldn't have had to iron out the bugs in so many different models of new train.
And of course the power supply problem in Kent and Sussex should have been foreseen.
And to think I was feeling smug about G.B. in the eighties. They're going to fix their problems and we're going to be hauling oxcarts.
More likely, a delay occurs because some joker gets on to the platform when a train is just starting off and opens a door. They always got really upset at this at Charing Cross: There would be whistles, bells, and shouting platform staff.
Issues include reliability of the new trains, and late delivery. "Botched privatisation" and insufficient investment are blamed.
http://www.railpro.co.uk/issues/jan2004.html
Check the article called 'New Scrap'. All about SWT's contraversial plan to park their 3 year old Junipers (inital cost 90 million pounds).
Some intersting tidbits:
SWT Junipers - just over 4,300 miles per casualty!
Gatwick Express Junipers - 17,609 miles per casualy last year (recently up to 34,469 miles)
Some differences in operations, but also likely some difference in maintenance (like one's good and one's not).
There's also an article on the slam doors ('Old Scrap').
for double crossovers,
and for Junctions,
and for pocket tracks,
On these diagrams the WMATA nomenclature is "X" = Route letter, "NN" = train control RTU (Remote Terminal Unit) number, and then the signal number, The Baltimore Metro uses a the same basic labeling nomenclature with a couple differences. There in no route letter, the train control RTU are based on a two letter abbreviation of the station name, for instance OC 2 would be the signal at the crossover just north of Old Court Station on the outbound track 2. The signal number are the same as WMATA but the track number are opposite. for instance WMATA would be XNN 02 on track 1, Baltimore Metro NN 2 on track 2
John
If it's worth anything, I can help you with the track designations. They are referenced from Five Points as if you are standing at 5P and facing down each line. You can see from the platforms at 5P where the 0+00 chaining station is marked off on the third rail. On the East Line, the eastbound mainline track is designated ER (for East Right), the Westbound mainline track is EL for East Left, and center tracks are EC for East Center. The West Line is WR, WL and WC for westbound, eastbound and center tracks respectively. You can figure out that the South Line is SR, SL and SC. The North Line is NR, NL and NC. I'm not 100% sure about the Northeast line, but I would imagine that it starts at the junction south of Lenox and its designations are NER, NEL and NEC. I'm not completely sure about the Proctor Creek line, I but would guess that it is PR and PL, there are no center tracks on this line.
The only place where you see signal head labels with numbers that high on WMATA are in the yards. The highest number you will find on a main line interlocking signal on WMATA is D98 48. D98 48 protects the trailing inbound movement in to D And G junction (D98) from the Blue Line G Route track 1. This movement would be against normal flow as track 1 is the outbound track.
I think you are correct about the Proctor Creek line, based on the route labels in Kai Brackschuize track map
Looks like John is going to have to make a road trip to Atlanta.
John
Yes, from the eastbound platform.
I still prefer the old US&S system where signals were named according to which "lever" controled them with L or R added as to which lever position cleared the signal. The new PATH WTC system uses the R/L terminology. PATCO also uses the L/R system not for each interlocking but over their entire line starting with 2L/R at 16th St and ending with 90 L/R at Woodcrest.
John
Daniel Greene's subway paintings
Penn Station Model & O. Winston Link Museum
Parsons fascinates me. He stood tall and saw far into the distance and left this city with a transportation masterpiece. He was a true visionary and we owe him much.
Anyway, here's a link to the NYPL for more information about the exhibition. Their dates seem to differ from dates that the Transit Museum sent out in a flyer last month.
William Barclay Parsons
Channel 41 had the longest segment with a many of shots of the interior of an AirTrain, exteriors of the AirTrains, stations, tracks, ticket machines, and electronic sign-age. Unfortunately, I do not understand Spanish, so I don't know what they said but the pictures were great.
WNBC said the cost will be $6 Billion.
Randy Mason
There are four options. In each case, the AirTrain would hook up to the Atlantic Avenue branch of the LIRR. The story discusses three ways to get the trains into Lower Manhattan:
Via the Cranberry St tunnels (the Brookfield proposal), which would force the C to be diverted to the Rutgers St tunnels
Via the Montague St tunnels. I believe there is enough capacity that this could be done without canibalizing existing subway service.
Via a new East River tunnel.
The Daily News wasn't able to find out what the 4th option was, except that it was a variation on one or more of the above.
Isaac
I don't know. If so, the whole system is incompatible with everything else around it.
Not so much, nor so significant, as they'd have you believe. What's your point, anyway?
Airtrain? 750VDC. As always, these figures are nominal.
And they use 2 different systems for their power.
Yes.
Can LIM and conventional trains mix?
Sure, why not?
The presence of the reaction rail does not preclude the use of conventional traction propulsion.
Of course, on any car equipped only for linear-induction propulsion, it would be impossible to operate in the absence of a reaction rail. Expect any track-sharing service to either use hybrid vehicles equipped with both linear-induction and traction motors, or to ditch the linear-induction altogether and operate solely with traction motors even in the presence of a reaction rail.
Mark
Duh!
Given the new service plan Feb 22, your opinion is reasonable and supportable. Good signaling and well-timed operation would be important.
There is no obstacle to a dual-mode car.
As a former engineer, I wave my PRIVATE PARTS as WELL as well as my HAT to the "AirTrain" designers ... they did it FLEXIBLE! Whooops! MULTIPLE WAYS TO WIN ... *BAD* engineer! BAD, BAD, BAD ENGINEER! It was SUPPOSED to explode and embed copper, lead, and steel in every direction. Dammit! You gave the opposition WAYS OUT! :(
As a former technocrat, I've reaped the multishaftings over and over for providing technical solutions to "will it float?" or NOT. ENGINEERS "overbuild" designs. And always get in TROUBLE for doing so. I would FULLY expect that you could run an R68A on airtrain's tracks, and will it float (or - "is it bouyant?")? Only way to tell is put one up there - bet it will float (and as always, NO wagering)
But Pigs is probably corect here - the DESIGN allows for D trains. :)
* Aren't Airtrains run via an automated system - no humans operating at the controls? I doubt this can be allowed. Airtrains would have to be run by humans and this would create a major stink over why the trains are also not run by humans at the airport - a big pain.
* Signal systems - are signalling systems compatible between Airtrain and the subway system?
* Capacity - Tunnels other than Rutgers are at or near capacity. There seems to be no room to add additional trains at peak periods without reducing service to key stations as Airtrain can be expected to run non-stop - bypassing waiting commuters - an ugly situation.
* Inter-operability with the subway - current standard size cars may be too long to even navigate/fit on Airtrain curves so subway eqpt can't be mixed with Airtrain eqpt.
As for routing - consider that the object is to bring trains to a downtown terminal from the airport. So the Old Rockaway ROW is a poor fit except where it's part of the current A line.
Which is stupid. The emphasis should be on providing rail service to places people actually want to go.
The incompatibility of LIRR and Airtrain equipment is a legitimate obstacle, but one which must be overcome for any of the proposed plans. With ESA complete, capacity will be plentiful.
You'd get a transit line through Brooklyn and Queens that follows the traffic patterns of anyone who has a car.
Isaac
Problem is:
The powers that be are in control and won't be talked out of bringing the train downtown. They are making a political statement here to prove the point that they want to fix up the mess caused by the trajedy of Seeptember 11 and that they want to pour some $$ into the lower Manhattan area in form of construction. So it's probably as much about that as moving people to and from the airport.
As for building new infrastructure - the point is well taken - but again impractical due to the powers that be. They want to say they've done it all - but actually spend as little as possible doing it. If the solution is less than perfect - they have a tactic:
Say what you want the public to hear as many times as necesary - until they accept is as empirical fact. Examples:
* JFK was killed by a single bullet (according to the Warren Commission)
* Ronald Reagan didn't raise taxes (oh yeah??!! but he raised mine?!?!)
* We need this funding to build the Second Avenue Subway (yeah right - we've been funding it since 1932 in various transit bond issues - still no SAS)
Sorry in advance for my off topic rant at the end of this post - but I felt like I had to do this just once - -
Which is stupid. The emphasis should be on providing rail service to places people actually want to go.
Which is so far off-base, it's hilarious. Lower Manhattan is the third-largest business district in the USA. Millions of people want to go there.
Midtown Manhattan (the largest business district in the USA) already has comparatively superior transit connections, and it is also pretty well tapped-out, with no room to grow. The growth opportunity is in Lower Manhattan. The better the transit connections, the better the growth.
Furthermore, Lower Manhattan is going to be under construction for the next 10-15 years. Any sensible plan should consider transit options before the cement dries.
The incompatibility of LIRR and Airtrain equipment is a legitimate obstacle....
Thank goodness SubTalkers keep pointing this out. I'm sure the planners otherwise would have overlooked it.
Actually, with the exception of the WTC site, there is very little room to add development in Lower Manhattan. Midtown still has much more buildable property, especially if CBD zoning and infrastructure is expanded to the West Side.
After that, it is Long Island City and Downtown Brooklyn.
But there are still areas of blight and poverty. The arrival of the SAS at 106 St and 116 St would be very good for the area. In fact, the developers would be getting busy years before the stations opened for business. Open the first operable segment to 96 St and watch developers start looking at properties further north. Start finishing the existing tunnels in the 100s-110s and the developers will get busy.
Yes and no. after all, there's Harlem, and then there's east Harlem. They are distinct in some ways.
"To be more you require access in a reasonable commute from the whole region, or at least a large part of it."
Harlem and East Harlem already has great access along a north-south access. Excellent subway service, and Metro-North's 125 St station - plus 125 St is a Lex express stop, renovated with ADA access.
The SAS 125 St terminal would offer improved access to Metro-North and set up a possible east-west service expansion. However, the latter is far in the future.
So your definition is met. However, it is not met as well as in downtown or in downtown Brooklyn. greed, midtown is preferable due to better east-west connections (and ESA on the way...)
"And that's the way the office rents shake out too."
False statement as of a few years ago, and false today in regards to lower Manhattan. 125 St commercial rents were as high as anywhere in the city. And they are certainly higher than downtown. They were higher than downtown in the years when the WTC towers stood empty. This was part of the irony surrounding Harlem.
That should read Agreed, not greed.
Simple as that. No taking over the LIRR atlantic av line, no taking a subway tunnel, none of that BS.
The agencies involved won't be paying for any lengthy special
ROW to move these trains. What we're most likely to see is some form of a revived JFK Express ("Take the train to the plane" - anyone remember that) which puts to use the existing A service including an extension connecting to Airtrain.
But even in this scenario - there will be equipment incompatibilities. It's pretty clear to me that the Airtrain eqpt won't be allowed out onto the subway as unmanned trains. I've also heard that existing eqpt won't fit on some of the turns (radius too tight) for the new Airtrain.
Other incompatibilities would also need to be overcome - including but not limited to signalling.
It already is. A trains to Rockaway Pk. are extras. At best there are 3 per hour, in one direction only.
On one hand, it smacks of a double theft.
On the other hand, even at rush hour you could probably run three additional (Air)trains per hour through the Cranberry without affecting subway service, as long as there were no dwell time issues. The Airtrain could then run to the lower level at 42nd Street and terminate there. Additional trains could run off-peak.
As for the Montigue, it will have capacity once the bridge is open. But a one-seat LIRR ride just doesn't work. So you are talking about a new subway line, though perhaps one that doesn't have a free transfer from other NYCT services but does from the LIRR.
Given four plans for an expensive and unnecessary line, I hope that the the fourth option is the "no-build" option!
Then again, the MTA is preparing to spend $400 million to reduce capacity from 30 tph to 24 tph on a route that's crush loaded at 20 tph.
Wake up, politicians!
A brief summary of the plan is here:
http://www.tstc.org/bulletin/20040112/mtr44201.html
Remember - our "anointed" don't care about Brooklyn - it's under democratic control, thus can go to hell ... "Cranberry" is the buzzword rather than a NEW tunnel (which could, if properly designed) serve both LI *and* perhaps join Staten Island to Manhattan, eliminating a very expensive ferry for which "farebox recovery" is nonexistent ...
But yeah, if Brooklyn can't get to Manhattan, let them take the G and the people mover to get to Manhattan from Hoyt ...
DISCLAIMER:
"high-raps" from politicos and their aides in local taverns under heavy influence of alocholic beverages is NOT a substitute for reality ... "heard in the office" does NOT mean that it is a law ... merely the ponderings of the Paturkey Peekskill clueless who are in power
now, don't LIVE in Albany, and don't give a QWAP about Brooklyn or any of the OTHER "boroughs of the great unwashed" ... these are REPUBLICAN times ... get over it - if you DON'T live in the suburbs, then you're a damned liberal and to hell with YOU.
But yeah, A/C train byebye, hello LIRR is the "path of least resistance" being explored to make certain that suburbanites can leave the office at 1PM and be in front of Homeland security for four hours at 2PM ... and to hell with you. :(
All I got was a smirk and the "little bit of this" hand gesture ... (if ya know whut I meen) ... so far though, the PLAN is to hijack a subway line and just use that. After all, NYC don't vote republican, so to HELL with them. That's the attitude - "you're either *WITH* us, or *AGAINST* us, BRING IT ON. :(
I don't think Cranberry can possibly make it through community review. Montague (which probably is less costly) will be the way to go, and can be done without hijacking subway service.
But my "source" works for the internal "think tank" of the NYS Senate. They're employed to study a situation and make recommendations for the "legislative intent" piece behind bills that get printed - their job is to look at the possibilities and determine which ones to "recommend" as an "action plan" ...
What I was told was that the "A/C tunnel" (Cranberry) was the BEST choice among technocrats that have looked at it and determined that the LEAST "street disruptions" (anyone remember the 63 St tunnel getting connected to the E/F/G/whatever and the HELL it wrought from time to time whilst being built?) would be to dig from *near* the Atlantic LIRR terminal, route to Cranberry and SHARE the tunnel ... nobody ever *heard* of FRA until I brought it up nearly a year ago.
They went, looked, talked to FRA and determined that a waiver COULD be granted if certain conditions were met ... we didn't talk much about THAT angle ... I was amazed that there was any belief it would be granted at ALL ... but I digress.
Cranberry *IS* the "most likely plan" and has been discussed a few times. There's a "study group" on the issue now, plus consultants. All I can tell ya is that Cranberry is *still* the leader until all the reports are in. They'd *LOVE* to build a *NEW TUNNEL* for this, but unfortunately, the Shrub Administration won't fund subway tunnels *UNLESS* they're on MARS and Ahnold Schwartenegger is the motorman. :(
Like all the little "trial balloons" I share here, it's nothing more than "the current plan" being thrown around. I'm privy to "trial balloons" and since our friend is right there in the helium factory, I'm at liberty to throw them out here and see what happens. :)
The whole "BRT" thing that I posted a week or two ago was CLOSELY watched by my friend and his/her cohorts and HEH! It was a doozy, As my buddy said, "Man! That was a REALLY BAD idea now that I think about it." Died in two days as a concept. THANKS, EVERYONE! :)
But yeah, Paturkey wants, Paturkey GETS and to HELL with anyone in the way. NYC re-elected him, he's yours. :(
Forget community review. Doesn't the City of New York own the subway? Would the state seize it for the benefit of suburban Long Island, after New York City taxpayers paid for it (10 times over the way this place refinances debt)? Come to think of it, doesn't the city own the Atlantic Avenue branch too?
After running around all the possibilities, I have concluded that the best solution is a super-express subway from Jamaica, along the Atlantic Avenue Branch, north to Myrtle and into the Montigue tunnel beyond Court Street station. Merge (super-subway vs. DeKalb) and diverge (BMT Broadway vs. Nassau Loop) with no dwell time, and you'd get lots of TPH. The super-subway would be a cross-platform transfer for LIRR riders at Jamaica, and would go in from there. If compatibility problems could be solved, you could also run the Airtrain through, at least off peak. Since it's a shorter train, it would be more cost effective than an eight or ten car subway moving in LIRR riders off peak.
As a new premium service, the super-subway would not carry a free transfer, so it would be used primarily by LIRR commuters and Airtrain transferees, along with those moving between Jamaica, Downtown Brooklyn, and Lower Manhattan. For bus transferees, I recommend building the 3rd track on the Jamaica line, as discussed. You could even do a loop, with 6 Js and 12 express Zs on the lower level for bus riders, and 18 super-subway trains for the LIRR and Airtrain riders on the upper level, at peak hour.
The W would take the place of the M in Brooklyn. So along Nassau Street, the suburbanites would have the northbound platforms in the AM and the southbound platforms in the PM pretty much to themsevles. I'm sure they'd appreciate that.
Methinks you (and other subtalkers) are more tolerant of getting on a crowded subway full of Afro-Americans than the average resident of Nassau and Suffolk County earning over $100 G per year. That is what this is all about.
Why pander to their racial fears?
Here's a cheaper solution:
1. Re-signal the Fulton St express. This permits higher speeds.
2. Connect the Liberty el's center track to the Fulton subway.
3. Run the AIRtrain on the Fulton subway as an express, charging extra fare to ride such trains.
Certainly not Rutgers: there's no room for A/C/F. Under the proposed plans, AIRtrains and 8th avenue expresses would share trackage. The original proposed connection is a tunnel branching off the Atlantic LIRR at Vanderbuilt av, connecting to the Fulton subway between Clinton-Washington and Lafayette Av.
Aren't Penn's Platforms already extremely crowded? I don't know: I don't ride commuter rail.
Nearly 150,000 riders use cranberry each direction, daily. These people have to go somewhere. If AIRtrain's going to use existing tunnel, it's going to have to learn to share with DC powered trains.
Undoubtedly. Don't AIRtrains use an entirely different propulsion system anyway?
The answer is to convert AIRtrains to Subway specifications. Should have been built that way in the first place.
Simply connectimg the AIRtrain to the "A" at Howard Beach is much cheaper.
If they have not been signed off, you can advocate them or find fault with them. Once signed off, it's too late to do either.
This will ruin A/C service permanently. Airtrains will have to merge with A trains at Vanderbilt, then with C trains at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, and we'll lose LIRR service to Brooklyn. I can't believe anyone is seriously considering this plan.
No, LIRR would still use it, while AIRtrains move 1 block over to Fulton.
Utilizing steel wheel/steel rail technology, the AirTrain system will have third rail current collection at 750 volts dc.
You've been in the sausage factory though long enough to know the difference between floating lead balloons on the ceiling versus what actually happens. :)
Left hand, meet right hand.
I know that you know that the type of propulsion (DC traction, AC traction, Airtrain-style linear induction, or even fanboat propellor) has nothing to do with how the electrons are delivered. Even some of your own equipment manages to get by on your third rail with AC propulsion. Don't feel left out, I'm sure Concourse will get its share soon enough.
Mark
They could use the airport funds however they rules dictate the funds be used for airport travelers only, meaning no LIRR commuters could use the tunnel if it's been paid for by airline ticket surcharges.
The point about the Rockaway branch is mute now because the Airtrain has already been built to Jamaica station, when the LIRR finally connects with Grand Central there will be room to send Airtain to Penn Station. All that would be needed is to physically connect the two lines at Jamaica and solve the compatibility problems.
The point of this recent announcement is for service to LOWER Manhattan, thus the four plans.
2013 seems to me awfully optimistic, even if everything goes perfectly.
The fact sheet refers to "families" of options (e.g., the "New Tunnel family of options", the "Cranberry family of options"). That's because there are multiple alignment possibilities after the trains get to Manhattan. For instance, a new tunnel could lead to a stub-end terminal at WTC, or it could connect to one or both of the E line or the SAS.
It is easy to dismiss the benefits of this project. Anyone who doubts the importance of commuter rail stations should study the evolution of midtown Manhattan after Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal were built. Done right, the impact can be huge. The range of options being considered do a lot more than merely a point-to-point ride from WTC to the airport.
It would be wrong to assume that this service would operate with existing rolling stock. Comments here that the existing AirTrain would be incompatible with the announced options are therefore misplaced. I know that SubTalkers pride themselves on their encyclopedic knowledge of rails and trains, but trust me: transit planners have noticed that the subway, the AirTrain, and the LIRR are not currently compatible. This critical point has not eluded them.
Does this mean a one-seat ride between Lower Manhattan and JFK or a one-seat ride from Lower Manhattan to Jamaica?
study the evolution of midtown Manhattan after Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal were built.
But this commuter rail station is being planned in an area that is already at a very advanced state of evolution.
Indeed. Brains with 20% more synapses than the average abound here. The third rail helps a lot.
:0)
During business hours. At night and on Sunday, there's more action in West Hempstead.
There are only two tracks. Others have already posted the obvious problems with sharing the tracks. Let's hope they are not thinking about using one track for subways, the other for LIRR, each running bi-directional (yeah, sure)
OR are they thinking of running subway trains from Cranberry tunnels up the LIRR Brooklyn route then connecting to the J line, displacing the LIRR trains, instead of the other way around? Hello Super Express!
"Four options have been identified to provide direct access to Long Island and JFK Airport. The options also provide improved service between Downtown Brooklyn and the LIRR hub at Jamaica, Queens. The options are as follows:
* New Tunnel - Service between Lower Manhattan and JFK & Jamaica using: the AirTrain /JFK route, the converted Atlantic Branch, new tunneling in Brooklyn, a new East River tunnel, and new tunneling in Manhattan.
* Montague Tunnel (Currently serves the M, N, R subway lines) - Service between Lower Manhattan and JFK & Jamaica using: the AirTrain /JFK route, the converted Atlantic Branch, new tunneling in Brooklyn, the Montague Street Tunnel, and MTA-NYCT Broadway and/or Nassau Line.
* Cranberry Tunnel (Currently serves the A, C subway lines)- Service between Lower Manhattan and JFK & Jamaica using: the AirTrain /JFK route, the converted Atlantic Branch, new tunneling in Brooklyn, the Cranberry Street Tunnel, and MTA-NYCT Fulton Line (A/C).
* Montague and Cranberry Tunnel Combination - Service between Lower Manhattan and JFK & Jamaica using: the AirTrain /JFK route, the converted Atlantic Branch, and both the Cranberry and Montague Street Tunnels.
All options, both those using existing MTA-NYCT tunnels and those that build a new tunnel, make extensive use of existing infrastructure. Under all alternatives, the Atlantic Avenue Branch, currently operated by the MTA-LIRR, would be used between Jamaica Station and Downtown Brooklyn. The alternatives make use of four different tunnel options for crossing the East River between Brooklyn and Manhattan. All options will provide either station or pedestrian connections to the Port Authority's World Trade Center Transportation Hub or the MTA's Fulton Street Transit Center. . .
A critical next step of the study is an in-depth analysis of any effects that these proposed alternatives may have on existing New York City Transit operations. The selected alternative will complement existing and planned transit services.
Construction and project cost estimates for each alternative have not yet been developed. The next phase of the analysis will focus on alignment, construction, and other environmental issues, return on investment/cost, ridership, and relationship to other regional transit network planning issues. A full assessment of all the issues that need to be addressed prior to the implementation of a new service will be evaluated in the formal environmental review process that will commence in the spring following this study.
The selected alternative, along with a financing framework, will be announced by the end of April 2004. In addition, a timeline for implementation including construction start date and the beginning dates of potential interim/early phases of the new service will be released in the spring."
Notice they talk about the "converted" LIRR Atlantic Ave. branch, and use of the Broadway or Nassau St., or Fulton St., lines of the subway. From this I deduce they plan to convert LIRR branch to a subway and run subway-compatible (possibly hybrid) trains through the chosen tunnel, then via the ex-LIRR tracks to and onto the Airtrain system. I also deduce, from the last few paragraphs, that there is still a hell of a lot of study to be done.
The deal circa 1990 = NYC parasites who want to beat the system get welfare, the rest of the state gets everything else.
The deal circa 2004 -- the rest of the state gets everything, the suckers in NYC pay.
Actually, in 1990 welfare really didn't cost so much afterall. Fuckeramos.
There is no need for the line and there is not enough money to build it. Most of that $4.5 billion FEMA money is already earmarked. The Port Authority might make a small contribution. Are those downtown landlords big political contributors?
There's no doute that this line WILL be built sometime in the next 10-15 years....
and another says:
Clearly, there is no unmet transportation need for this line.
Personally I don't think that either statement is clearly true.
But I don't see how such a plan can be justified as a candidate for federal funding, so where is the money coming from?
The Federal Government pays for lots of things that are strictly justified by any essential federal need.
That said, I suspect that most of the funding for the AirTrain extension, if it is built at all, will have to come from bond issuance, higher airport taxes, and so forth. The city has offered to put in about $500 million, which is not insignificant, but is clearly only a fraction of the funds needed.
bond issuance, higher airport taxes, and so forth.
Whoever issues bonds must pay the interest. I would prefer airport users to pay, not the general public.
The city has offered to put in about $500 million
And I heard that the Port Authority has offered another $500 million.
clearly only a fraction of the funds needed
At one time they were hoping for some of the $4.5 billion FEMA money, but most of that is already spoken for.
the AirTrain extension, if it is built at all
It seems to me that there is a fair chance that it may not be built, despite being a priority of Governor Pataki. I would like to know if anyone has done a cost/benefit analysis, because I seriously doubt that the benefits would exceed the $6 billion cost.
I am not sure how well unmanned vehicles would mix with conventional trains, if that is part of the plan!
However, that is only on dedicated ROW. When you start mixing train types nd controls, extra safeguards must be in place.
Like many who've posted on this thread, you're presuming that this plan would be implemented with existing rolling stock. I don't think that's very likely.
They have L trains announcing an M train station, and M trains announcing the L train station. What a world!
How long have the M Shuttles used the R143's?
"This is a Manhattan-bound L train. The next stop is Wyckoff Avenue."
If you take approximately the same train every day it is understandable that you may get incorrect announcements on that interval. The regular C/R be out for a long time due to medical or disciplinary reasons so there would be an extra C/R every day. Or maybe if he or she is the regular C/R, he or she is not setting it up correctly and no one has corrected them.
If you hear incorrect announcements, you could let the C/R know. They may not be aware of what's being said. When you hear that stuff every day you stop paying attention to it like retail employees with the Muzak.
I was aboard cars 8249-8250-8251-8252 on the M train on Saturday, jumping on at Wyckoff, going to Metropolitan, and then to Myrtle. I noticed that, going towards Metropolitan (8249 being the lead car), the train I.D. announcements started, “This is a Metropolitan Avenue-bound M train,” and while going towards Myrtle (8252 leading), the Wyckoff Avenue station was referred to as, “Wyckoff Avenue.” I was later on a different M train (I didn’t get the car numbers) which referred to the northern terminal as “Middle Village-Metropolitan Avenue” and the Wyckoff Avenue station as “Myrtle Avenue-Wyckoff Avenue.” I assume that these cars have the later program. This supports my theory that the announcements have been switched between the two lines. The “Myrtle Avenue-Wyckoff Avenue” announcement should be on the L, and the “Wyckoff Avenue” announcement should be on the M, but on some trains the announcements are switched between the two lines. Interestingly, on both programs, the Metropolitan Avenue station was referred to as “Metropolitan Avenue,” regardless of whether “Middle Village” was announced as the destination or not (i.e. Trains that I.D. themselves, "This is a Middle Village-Metropolitan Avenue-bound M train" refer to the station as simply, "Metropolitan Avenue").
The accident -- which occurred around 5:45pm on the Hubbard Street S-curve immediately north of Merchandise Mart station -- involved northbound Purple and Brown line trains. The Purple Line train "bumped into the Brown Line" train, according to CTA® spokeswoman Robyn Ziegler.
It appears the striking train was traveling at a "low speed," CTA® spokeswoman Sheila Gregory said, although how slow was unclear. "It looks like one rear-ended the other one," she said. "Preliminarily it looked like we've got 17 or 18 injuries that appear to be minor. We're still evacuating people." By 7pm, it appeared that as many as 35 people may have been injured, all minor.
The impact of the collision shattered glass windows on the train cars. Rescue workers erected ladders from the sidewalk to the tracks to help passengers evacuate the train cars.
A third train was backed up to the site so riders could walk through it toward a nearby stop, Gregory said, but some riders also were visible walking on the elevated catwalk. Power to the third rail was cut off shortly after the accident.
Passenger Sharada Nethaway was in the last car of the Purple Line train. It had just pulled out of the Merchandise Mart, she said. "I was sitting when I felt a big bump. I just knew that we crashed. Everyone was calm. There was no panic," she said. Fire department spokesman Kevin MacGregor said some passengers complained of injuries but none appeared to be serious.
Due to the accident, Brown Line and Purple Line service into and out of the Loop was temporarily suspended. Purple Line trains were rerouted to operate via the Red Line subway. A bus shuttle was put in place in both directions between the Merchandise Mart and Fullerton stations by 6:45pm to compensate for the loss of Brown Line service.
Power was restored to the northbound track around 7:30pm, allowing he effected trains to be moved to Chicago station to discharge the remaining passengers. The trains involved in the collision were then taken to Howard Yard to be laid up for inspection. Power was restored to the southbound track at 7:55pm. The first runs to traverse the incident site, following inspection of the right-of-way by maintenance personnel were Brown Line Run 420 in the northbound direction and Run 434 southbound. All Brown Line trains were returned to normal service at 8:45pm. The bus shuttle remained in place until about 9:15pm.
The incident Tuesday is similar to another in 2001, when a Brown Line train rounding Church Curve near Orleans and Oak rear-ended a stopped Purple Line train, injuring dozens. [Source: Chicago Sun-Times, CTA]
I note the speed restriction in the photo just posted.
http://subway.com.ru/chicago/pages/chi009.htm
-Larry
subway.com.ru
Is the whole CTA cab signalled?
Jim K.
Chicago
By this morning, all the idiotic talk shows would have been aired with all the lawyer commercials (you know, "if you've been injured in an accident...") so by this evening the number should jump to 3,000.
http://www.chicago-l.org/mishaps/loop.html
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Yes, a heavy beam was installed diagonally in the outside northeast quadrant of the curve following the accident.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
The corner they collided on is pretty blind. It's two tight turns - not the max allowable, but pretty tight - in an "S" curve as the tracks move west from running over Wells to run over Franklin immediately after leaving the Merchandise Mart station. There are enough buildings around them that you can only see the curves themselves once you're in them, and not the straight-aways leading into or exiting them.
When the TA was having all their Union Square, West End line, and Eastern Division wrecks with R40 and R42's, preventive steps were taken with regards to train speeds and acceleration capabilities so that 2 red lights were sufficient to follow a train.
Kiley himself admited to writer William Finnegan that he was surprised at some of the conditions he found. First of all, he was struck by the stoic, 'keep a stiff upper lip' attitude of most Londoners (which may or may not be a good thing), quite a contrast to the pulic he was accustomed to while at NYCTA. He cited an example: Victoria Station is forced to close at nearly every rush hour due to severe overcrowding and Kiley was caught in a frightening crush there. He was amazed to see Underground workers form a human chain to hold back a tide of commuters trying to reach a packed platform. Kiley retreated into a a control booth where dispatchers work in full view of the public. He thought, "We'd be dead by now if we were in Times Square." Here, he said, "there was no complaining. Other than the shuffle of feet, there wasn't much noise." '
Anyway, it's in the Feb 9, 2004 issue of New Yoker. I tried to link or paste the story but there's no on-line version. Guess you have to buy the issue -or visit the periodical section of the local library.
Anyone who equates the Tube to the Third World has obviously never been to the Third World. The main problem with the Tube is that there isn't enough of it to handle the volume, but in many respects the Tube is far more advanced than the NYC Subway. The Tube had automated fare cards years before New York had the MetroCard. Electronic platform signs in the Tube tell you the next three trains that are coming and how many minutes till they arrive—a capability that New York's subway won't have for many years to come. The Tube's platform and station signage is far superior to New York's, and the average station is a lot cleaner.
If only I could go there in person...
: (
Mark
Not to mention the fact that the next Tube train is likely to be only a couple of minutes' away even during off-peak hours. New York's long and growing headways would be totally unacceptable.
And UndergrounD doesn't have to deal with merges. Not to mention that part of the schedule chaos you see sometimes in NY is a result of track work or rehabilitation. That's something you'll never hear me whine about.
That's something London needs to do a lot more of.
Having said that, LU is a great system and when in London, LU is my car!
It is much much better to have one fare and makes a lot more sense..and don't give me this hog wash about distance. I am sure the distance from 241 White Plains Road to Coney Island is not much further than the distance say from Heathrow in zone 6 to Picadilly in zone 1 except the former costs a single fare and the later costs 2.5 times the local fare. And then there is the necessity of maning (or wamaning) the barriers. Millions could be saved by simply going to a single fare system in London.
I understand that but the article and the discussion was a comparison between New York and London. Also, I wonder how much money is wasted in implementing a zone system. Reminds me of a bridge we once had going into Long Beach Long Island I believe where an audit disclosed that the bulk of the toll revenue was used to pay the people administering and collecting the tolls rather than the stated purposes of the tolls. More often than not, the more you complicate tolls, fares etc. the more it costs to administer.
"Londoners have told me that, if an appointment is important, one must allow forty-five more minutes more than a trip should take...The Tube runs much deeper than the New York subways and passengers routinely find long lists of stations to avoid because of 'escalator problems'..."
Most of the world's major subway systems charge a higher fare to travel longer distances. New York is unusual in that regard. Among systems of comparable scale, I believe New York is unique.
Yikes, are you serious? They may not all be in high traffic locations but then, neither are all of NYC's, but the Metropolitan/Circle/District/H&C lines suffer *huge* problems from merges, and the Northern line as well.
Metropolitan line:
1. Chalfont & Latimer
2. Moor park
3. Harrow on the hill
4. Rayners lane
..which are mostly minor until you get to the Circle line starting at baker st.
1. Baker st ( a HUGE bottleneck for everyone involved ) Met terminal & flat junction with H&C and circle line
2. Moorgate (flat junction to stub tracks on south side)
3. Aldgate diverge from H&C and Met terminal
4. Tower Hill circle merge with district
5. Earl's Court "East side" (Gloucester/HS Kensington Wye)
6. Edgware Road circle/district merge with H&C
District line gets additional complications, in addition to 4,5 above:
1. Aldgate east H&C & district merge
2. Earl's Court "West side" (Olympia/Wimbledon)
3. Turnham Green Richmond branch
4. Acton Town to Piccadilly line
5. Ealing Bway between Central and Piccadilly line
Northern line, north to south.
1. Mill Hill Branch to mainline
2. Camden town north
3. Camden town south
4. Kennington
"5. Ealing Bway between Central and Piccadilly line"
The Piccadilly Line doesn't go to Ealing Broadway. There is a merge between the District and Piccadilly lines north of Ealing *Common* station. (From Acton Town station to the merge, through Ealing Common station, the District Line, Ealing branch, and the Piccadilly Line, Rayners Lane branch, use the same pair of tracks).
There is no merge between the District and Central Lines at Ealing Broadway. Both lines terminate there, but each has its own platforms and there are no conflicting moves between the two lines.
Well, ok, but there's still a merge/diverge of the district and piccadilly line as the district heads to Ealing Bway. I don't know the names of the interlockings so just used the station nearest that seemed most obvious to describe where I was talking about. So this junction is only half as bad as I thought, then.
On the other hand, the Tube does not have to contend with (with one or two exceptions?) merges of the variety and complexity NYC Transit does. If it had, UndergrounD might not have the headway consistency it does now.
As usual you have to rememeber that train-bashing is a favourite sport of the British media, too.
I'm not merely pointing a finger at LU. They can't do something without money.
What is needed is a continuation of good housekeeping - maybe some modest service changes to build on reliability and a step chnage on the infuriariaing signal failures at places like Farringdon which knocks the service to pieces when it invetiably falls apart in the peak periods.
Staff presence is always good - and generally helpfull and polite.Lots of nice touches like friendly PA announcements and recycled piles of Metro newpapers at places like Westminster by the station cleaners.
According to the article much of London's subway car fleet is not air-conditioned since the old tunnels they run in are so narrow there's no place for the hot air to go.
When's the last time you recall finding Times Square station entrances being blocked off, say around 5:15 PM, because of overcrowding? And one reason for the overcrowding is that very few, if any, of London's lines are four-tracked. Just like in New York, right?
When's the last time one of New York's wooden (?) escalators caught fire and killed 31 riders?
Before deciding the writer doesn't know what he's writing about, would it be cool to at least read the article?
See Max, the thing about four-tracking is, the more tracks you have the more, ummm, trains you can run.
Euston is relatively pleasant to use, but not because any of the lines have four tracks. Waterloo is likewise not a particularly bad spot. Any of the lines have four tracks? No, although you do get a choice of Northern and bakerloo Line between Waterloo and Embankment, but thats as far as you go.
Saying that thereis congestion at a station because a line does not have four tracks is wrong, because it imples that the only solution is to four-track one or more lines. Saying that there is a problem because not enough trains run is correct, because any solution that enables more trains to run to where passengers want to go will some the problem.
In the 1930s, London Transport thought long and hard about four-tracking the Northern and Central Line, but they always reached the same conclusion. It is better to have two two-track tubes than one four-track tube.
Finally, I could say that the problem with the Lex is that there is not enough tracks. Six tracks anyone?
I have seen studies that show that four-tracking a line increases its capacity by 50% at most. One reason is that dwell times are increased by people transferring between locals and expresses, and holding doors open when trains are ready to leave.
I agree with the argument that a network of two-track lines provides better value for money than four-track lines, for the simple reason that not everybody wants to reach the same destinations.
The Tube isn't air-conditioned, but London has both a shorter and a cooler summer than New York. (I am writing in generalities---yes, I know there are hot days down there.)
It's true that London isn't 4-tracked, but few subway systems are. And bear in mind that London has far more mainline rail commuting options than New York. Look at the number of stations that coincide with a mainline rail station, and then compare it to the equivalent in NYC.
It's true that NYCT's escalators are in better shape—bear in mind that New York's stations are at shallower depths, and it has far fewer of them.
A very fair comment. The two systems are so different that it isn't really possible to say better or worse - just different. LU has suffered from the deferred maintenance problem just as NYCT has.
"It's true that NYCT's escalators are in better shape"
I'm not sure that is true, from comments made by posters on this board about escalators in NYC out of action for years at a time. LU has made a lot of progress with its escalator problems in recent years - mind you, it needed to!
"—bear in mind that New York's stations are at shallower depths, and it has far fewer of them"
Of course that is true, and they are less essential than London's for the most part. Major deep tube station in central London, like Oxford Circus, Piccadilly Circus, Kings Cross St Pancras and Holborn, are utterly dependent on their escalators.
I suspect this may change in the very near future with global temperatures increasing 2 or 3 degrees every twenty years. Summers will get hotter and longer thanks to our burning of carbons into the atmosphere. Unfortunately, there is no solution to this problem other than boring the tunnels again to make them wider and then purchasing new cars!
I wonder if anyone won the contest in designing an a/c for the Underground?
If they really wanted, I am sure they could figure out a way to a/c the tube. Whether it is cost effective given the climate in London is another story but I remember being there last August and seeing headlines in the Evening Standard complaining about tube passengers passing out in 40 degree heat.
Believe me I'm not questionning your expertise and I don't have the expertise in this. However, let me just say this. For years, they told us the IRT on the NYC subway could not be a/c'd for some of the same reason your are pointing out. Again the majority of the IRT tunnels are not as deep as the London tube; some are pretty far down but I guess that problem is not as severe. The narrow cars were also pointed to. They managed to solve that problem.
Personally, I think this is the 21st century and if the will was there, the problems could be resolved. Now the far bigger question is given the overall climate in London and that for the most part temperatures do not go over 25 degrees even during the summer, is it worth it? I suppose if you asked the passengers who had to ride the tube last summer when temperatures approached 40 degrees, they would say yes, yes a thousand times yes. But in the general scheme of thing, it is certainly not my business how British taxpayers wish to spend their money.
You're probably right. The subsurface line trains in London are of (very roughly speaking) IRT dimensions, and as I said before they are going to get a/c. The deep tube tunnels are small bore, cylindrical-shaped single-track tunnels, and therefore do present considerably greater difficulty than the IRT, though.
This also allows use of high-efficiency water-evaporative AC units that wouldn’t be practical on a train.
Underground workers form a human chain to hold back a tide of commuters trying to reach a packed platform.
In the 1950s, station entrance gates and platform entrance gates were used to limit the numbers of passengers entering busy stations and crowded platforms, in particular Oxford Circus. That seems more orderly than forming a human chain.
The truth is, I think, that the LU system is grossly overcrowded, and suffers from deferred maintenance owing to inadequate investment over many years. Personally I do not have a high regard for the managerial competence of the "old" London Transport, either - but that's opinion, not fact. Compared with most other Western developed countries, the UK has tended more to treat public transport as a business, expected to pay its way through the farebox, and this has led to vital public transport systems like LU being run on a shoestring. It has also led to the fares being too high. Having visited NYC several times in the last couple of years, I think the LU system is in a somewhat better state of repair right now that the NYC subway, so I assume it must be in a *lot* better state than the subway was in 1979. Escalator repair has improved in London lately (though not enough), cleanliness is not bad, and the signs saying where the next three trains are going are usually working and accurate. Peter Rosa seemed to agree with my assessment after his recent visit to London.
There is hugely complicated politics here too, within as well as between parties. Ken Livingstone stood as independent candidate for Mayor having been rejected by the Labour Party, and won, Now he has been re-admitted to the Labour Party in time to be its candidate at the next mayoral election. Last time around, his major disagreement with the government was about ... the financing and management of the tube! Kiely is Livingstone's man. He may have his own reasons for exaggerating the deficincies of the system that he inherited.
Still, the article states clearly that the London system is generally considered to be in crisis. Regardless of such things like train announcements or the state of escalator repair, New York's system is generally regarded as not being in a state of crisis.
BTW, I was stunned by one fact related in the article -London's system spent a whopping $600 million US for studys and consultants during the period when the desire was to privatize it. Since privatization is no longer being pursued that money was, basically, wasted. Wow! $600 million US would fixed a lotta escalators.
I don't think that is the general view. It has serious problems, certainly. But things are getting better (slowly), not worse. One issue often misunderstood is that catching up on arrears of maintenance itself causes disruption. (Lots of weekend GOs in New York, for example.) Peter Rosa's recent trip report on this board makes an interesting antidote to the New Yorker article.
"London's system spent a whopping $600 million US for studys and consultants during the period when the desire was to privatize it. Since privatization is no longer being pursued that money was, basically, wasted"
Contrary to what you say, the part-privatization is happening, along the lines the government wanted. A lot of the wasted money was that spent by Livingstone and Kiley in their (unsuccessful) fight against the government's part-privatization proposals.
And I'm not sure Ken can still be regarded as a Marxist....
I certainly was impressed with the system. Stations were clean, well-lighted and had good signage; the "next train" signs were so useful think it's a real pity that New York won't have them for years; headways were remarkably short; the train cars, while small, had decent seating and were by and large a bit cleaner than New York.
That really depends where you are, and when. I have spent a few too many hours at Edgware Road waiting for a clockwise Circle Line train…
The Circle Line is the exception to the 'good headways' rule. The reasons have been rehearsed here recently too - the many flat junctions with conflicting moves as you go round. [LU would like to eliminate it, but can't face the political flak if it tried to.] And Edgware Road can be an infuriating place to wait for the right train.
However, if you are at Edgware Road wanting to go clockwise, you can get a Hammersmith & City train as well as a Circle, except in the unlikely event that you are heading for somewhere on the Circle beyond Aldgate.
I happen to believe Kiley is simply trying to get more money for the Underground making things worse than what they really are. New York City is the richest city in the world and can afford the dramatic changes that were badly needed to it's subway system. I happen to believe Europeans care less about things like airconditioning, good service and clean cars. The author is correct in stating the people put up with it because they don't know what good service which is not to say this is a bad thing.
I'm sure many Europeans are shocked by the violence that occures in our subways and wonder how we can put up with such disregard to human life!
Check your crime statistics. NYC subways, at least, are quite safe today and no more violent or crime prone than those in London or Paris.
First I heard that theory, usually it's the other way around. That the all-knowing Europeans wouldn't put up with American-style transit (or Amtrak) for one minute.
I'm sure that is what lies behind his statements. Also to justify himself by continuing to argue that his and Mayor Livingstone's solution would have been better than the one that the government has forced on them.
"I happen to believe Europeans care less about things like airconditioning, good service and clean cars."
That is not true. There was great protest in London last summer (the hottest ever in the UK) about the intolerable heat on the tube trains, with many people demanding to know why a/c has never been installed. There is continuing vociferous complaint about overcrowding and about breakdowns and other interruptions of service. There is perhaps not so much complaint about cleanliness, but maybe that is because (in London at least) the standards are not that bad in that area.
It's keeping "a stiff upper lip, old chap" vs. "heyyyyfahgeddaboutit!!!"
I've often wondered if this route could be used today. It's abandoned, but still intact, though the encroachments are beginning. For example, maybe it could be used to get Harlem trains to Penn Station. (The current thinking is to only get Hudson and New Haven trains there.) But there's no easy way to get from the St. Mary's Park route, which is below grade, to the Hell's Gate route, which is above grade, without major expense.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/161343p-141478c.html
Of historical note: This was the greatest marine disaster in NY history in the 20th Century. It was also the greatest disaster until the WTC bombing Sept 11, 2001.
It puts the Malbone St wreck into perspective...
My grandmother once told me a story about how her mother was supposed to go on the trip that day with a neighborhood boy (my great-grandmother lived in what's now the LES). Her parents disapproved and the boy took another girl. Might just be a family legend, but she was sincere.
It also didn't help that the ship's fire hoses had deteriorated to the point that they burst when charged with water. Little or nothing actually got to the flames.
I'm surprised no one thought that varnishing a wooden boat with flammable white paint might not be such a good idea.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The book is well-written.
This June will have the centenary of the disaster.
Of note to railfans: I believe it was the World that tried to charter a tugboat to get reporters to the scene at North Brother Island. The owner of the tugboat said, "Take the el, it's faster!". I presume they rode the el to 133rd Street.
Gruesomely, on the return, many of the survivors took the el home. The author reports even one non-stop run with survivors back to the station at First Avenue and Eighth Street.
Tompkins Square Park has a memorial to the victims. The disaster is also mentioned on the placards along Second Avenue at St. Mark's church. The disaster is also mentioned in Joyce's Ulysses. When walking around Kleindeutschland (Alphabet City or Loisida), one must remember that the el ran up First Avenue to 23rd Street before swinging over to Second Avenue.
Building memorials for the sake of families and victims is short sighted. We should build for the future instead.
Media attention also helps. We know a lot about the Titanic, right?
Thanks,
Bob Sklar
-- Ed Sachs
Thanks. Anyone remember what those skip-stops were? They don't appear to be clearly divided on the historical maps.
Bob
It's interesting that the 14 is mentioned, since this appears to be an AM skip-stop operation.
Thanks. Anyone remember what those skip-stops were? They don't appear to be clearly divided on the historical maps.
Bob
As far as I can recall, the actual stops for Skip Stop service never appeared on any maps. Joe Korner has a scan of a brochure for the Jamaica Line skip-stop service on his web site.
-- Ed Sachs
I rode the Jamaica EL to/from school 1962 thru 1968, from 160th St station and from 168th St Station - end of line. The AM rush hours were skip-stop as everyone mentioned.
The JAMAICA EXPs were signed 15 and were R16's - only with RARE exception were they BMT Standards when they were signed JAMAICA EXP -obviously no #15. They made, I believe the "A" skip stop stations (Sutphin Blvd was the first one after 168th) which are the same on the existing EL portion as todays "J".
The 14 Bklyn-Bway LCL DID run in the AM skip stop, and were signed that way. From the ENY yard, they deadheaded to 168th St, and then entered service to Canal St. The return trip they went to Atlantic Ave and OOS. They were signed as #14 Bklyn Bway Locals when R16's were used, and as Brooklyn Bway Local when BMT standards were used - which was common. They made the "B" skip stop stations (160th St was the first after 168th St) which are the same on the existing EL portion as todays "Z". In the PM, they generally went to Atlantic Av or sometimes Crescent ST making ALL Stops.
Trains originating at 168th in the morning on the 14 service may have had north signs set for Atlantic Ave. They did not all deadhead to Jamaica in the morning. In the brief period of post-Crystie, and pre-KK, I often rode a 5 or 6 car Standard reverse-peak from Woodhaven to 121st at about 750am commuting to a private school. By the time I started walking up Lefferts Blvd, an Oyster Bay train was stopping at Richmond Hill. By late spring, it had become an 8-car R9 smelling of fresh paint on the inside. The route sign was blanked out.
One of the memories I have is on a cold winter day boarding a train at 168th that had deadheaded in from the yard after sitting all night during a snow storm with the doors open; with piles of snow all over the seats and floors --- BRRR!!!! But true to form, the BMT standard heated up nicely by Bway Junctn.
Also, there was a TA employee who had to change the signs on the 14's when they arrived at 168th as many of them were signed for the Canarsie Line (the BMT standards) on arrival - it was a real race some mornings.
Tony
Bob Sklar
Bob: The TA maps of that period were very eratic in their presentation of service information. They mention the #5 Lex Av Thru-Exp but nowhere do they tell you what makes it different from the regular #5 Exp. Ditto the #6 Lex Av Lcl-Exp. Neither do they mention the Brighton-Nassau or 4 Avenue-Nassau Service.
They do mention skip-stop on the Jamaica Line but don't tell you which trains skiped what stops. The use of Jamaica Local for the am Broadway-Bkyln Local is also misleading.
TO clear a few things up.
The #15 Jamaica Local did run during the morning rush but it ran outbound from Broad St to 168 Street. These trains ran inbound as # 15 Jamaica Express running express from Eastern Pkwy to Essex St and stopping only at Myrtle Avenue. They carried #15 Jamaica Express signs in both directions because there simply wasn't time to resign them at the terminals during the rush.
The #14 Bway-Bklyn Local did run during both the morning and evening rush hours for about three-four hours each. During the morning rush the the earliest trains ran from Canarsie and 111 Street to Canal St starting at about 6am . The skip stop service from 168 Street to Canal Street ran from 708am to 824am and after that trains ran between Atlantic AV/Eastern Pkway and Canal Street until about 10am.
#14 Bway-Bklyn Local ran outbound from Canal Street to 168 Street from 658am to 728am making all local stops.
Regarding skip-stop service. It began on June 18,1959 and it extended from 168 Street to Eastern Parkway. Stations to be served by #15 trains were designated as "A" stops. Stations to be served by #14 trains were designated as "B" stops. Staions served by both trains were "AB" stops.
Here's a list
168 Street AB
160 Street B
Sutphin Blvd AB
Queens Blvd B
Metropolitan Av B
121 Street A
111 Street A
102 Street B
Woodhaven Blvd A
Forest Pkwy A
Elderts Lane AB
Cypress Hills B
Crescent St A
Norwood Avenue B
Cleveland St A
Van Siclen Av B
Alabama Av B
Eastern Pkway AB
As you can see it was quite different from todays' J-Z service.
If I can provide further info please ask.
Best Wishes, Larry RedbirdR33
I wasn't able to get a decent interior photo because of the loads of sandbags for passenger simulation. However the word is that these cars are doing well and once past the 1,000 mile mark it will begin passenger service testing on the Hudson and Harlem lines.
IIRC, there is two full sets on the property, one stored at Croton Harmon Shops and one at Brewster.
Car #4006
Coupler with adapter
Trucks
Regards,
Trevor Logan
TransiTALK Transportation Media Group, LLC
Trevor
I'm fairly certain that the M3s aren't going anywhere, they're pretty new. It also should be noted that the M1s lack any equipment to convert the catenary power down to traction motor power, like the M2/4/6s can. It'd be cheaper to buy new cars (M8s, say) with this capability than to try to retrofit it into the 3rd rail-only M1s back to that capability.
It'd be kinda awkward when the M1s get to Mt Vernon and the lights go out and the traction motors get damn quiet. I suppose they could turn the M1s into locomotive hauled coaches (aren't they sending them down to Mexico for this?) and tow them behind P32DM-ACs or a new tri-voltage electric locomotive (ala ALP48 :))for service out onto the Shoreline East, but the FRA regs would be nuts.
And I apologize for furthering the misinformation that the M1 cars are going to Mexico to be turned into coaches. I wasn't clear, but now I know that they are being scrapped, thank you for clearing that up.
Lubrication....hmmmm
Is the color scheme similar to that of the LIRR M7's?
Nice pics.
Regards,
Jimmy
Hmm...the only other transit cars I know of with LED taillights are the GOH'd Bredas (W.M.A.T.A.).
The only road vehicles I know of with LED taillights are some RTSs and all Orions and NFAs (Some RTSs have LED frontal blinkers and some NFAs have LED frontal blinkers.).
Also, I saw QSC #450 the other day, and it looks like that bus has LED reversing lights. A rarity, but better to discuss that at BusTalk.
LEDs are better than lightbulbs (when used in this case).
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
I'm guessing I saw the old Brighton Beach LIRR tracks, or something similar?
- Cross-Brooklyn Expressway
- Extension of the L to Bay Ridge
- Possible light rail
Who knows what other uses have been proposed for this line? Why is there little public mention of this route?
Isaac
And a Bay Ridge-Staten Island ferry has been obsolete for 40 years.
And the subway also runs nonstop underwater.
http://www.nywatertaxi.com/nywt/site/brooklyn.php
Because.... It doesn't go anywhere!
Jamaica to Fresh Pond is E/W
Fresh Pond to about New Lotts is N/S
New Lotts to Bay Ridge is more or less E/W
To where? Unless one goes to a large event, or there's some kind of UN summit, driving is always faster than the subway, even to the CBD.
Not every pair of rails has to have rapid transit on it.
Where will the freight then go?
Sorry, people would just stay with the bus. You just come up with ideas for new lines for the sake of having new lines.
If someone wants to go to Long Island, that's what Flatbush/Atlantic is for.
Screw over whom? It's not screwing over when people are deprived of something they never had and that they should never have.
To get from Bay Ridge to Jamaica, or even half of the distance, via current transit options requires multiple transfers and can take much longer than this rail line would.
So what? How many people actually want to use this route? It's worthless and it would be cheaper to give people free car service if this route was to be desired.
You're missing a point here. I've lived in areas adjacent to that line, and there is indeed a nascent need for a cross-Brooklyn rail "hybrid commuter transit line". To object simply because this extant ROW does not fit within the current transit rail line directional orientation doesn't take in all the benefits such a line would offer.
Not so much "build it and they will come" maybe; more like "build it and they will be able to go". There are more than a "subset" of ridership who would be happy to utilize the line. For one thing, to go from southern Brooklyn to eastern Brooklyn is an involved journey. If there were stops at the existing subway lines as they cross the branch it would allow a relatively inexspensively-built new dimension to the city transit structure. As for the admittedly out of the way western terminal location I would submit that the city is dense enough to have a certain amount of heavy rail lines operating outside of the Manhattan CBD. Like the Crosstown line. It's awkwardly routed but it has a useful function of at least putting more neighborhoods on the accessable map.
I do feel it would make the most sense to make the line the LIRRs' second Brooklyn branch though. So in that scenario it would not be a fully local service. You're probably correct when you intimate that the route isn't feasible as a rapid transit line. But making it a limited stop commuter rail line similar to the LIRR Brooklyn branch could work. There is plenty of traffic from Brooklyn out to Nassau and Suffolk, and to Queens too. Does it make sense when there's always Flatbush Terminal for Brooklyn residents? I think yes. If you live on Avenue U or Kings Highway, Avenue H is only a few stops away, even late at night. And it would be good for the areas served to have LIRR stations in operation.
Jamaica is a major transfer station within the LIRR network. Relatively few south Brooklyn residents have any use for the LIRR network, and those who do can reach it by taking the subway to Atlantic-Pacific (or by driving -- while Brooklyn overall has less than a 50% automobile ownership rate, and I haven't bothered to look up the numbers for specific census tracts or zip codes in Brooklyn, I'll bet that that section of Brooklyn has a majority automobile ownership rate).
It would make more sense to spend the money improving services that already exist and attract crowds.
Did I miss something? What Church Ave is on the Crosstown line? Maybe you meant Church Ave of the F line.
Do you mean building a new tunnel from the Bay Ridge Branch to the Lower Level Stub south of Church Avenue?
What would be the name of the line? It's not the Culver yet. In fact, that is part of the crosstown line, as it was constructed.
Do you mean building a new tunnel from the Bay Ridge Branch to the Lower Level Stub south of Church Avenue?
Exactly. It's part of the crosstown infrastructure.
I don't think there is an offical name for the F line before Church Avenue. I've heard the name Smith Street Line used.
I don't know what the IND was going to do south of Church Avenue. There had been plans to connect the line with the BMT Culver line. (Which did happen). But I never heard of any plans for the underground portion. And if anyone asks the connection to the Ft Hamillton Subway to Staten Island was to have been further north in the area just after 7 Avenue.
I don't think there is an offical name for the F line before Church Avenue. I've heard the name Smith Street Line used.
That's where this site starts it's tour. It was built as part of the corsstown line, so why not call it that?
I don't know what the IND was going to do south of Church Avenue. There had been plans to connect the line with the BMT Culver line. (Which did happen). But I never heard of any plans for the underground portion.
The station was a terminal, so presumably it was used for a similar purpose as the Continental Lower Level at the other end of the line. It's interesting though that the lower level is constructed in such a way that you could extend the outer tracks to something, and still use the inner tracks as a terminal.
The MTA should really look into trying this. They'd have to change the Bay Ridge ROW a little, and invest in stations, but it's possible to construct it AND keep a freight track.
Other than that I thought of some stations from New Utrect to Canarsie Line if connections could be made. West of New Utrect to Bay Ridge I don't think there is need of service. The biggest problem I have seen is xfer to the F line as you can see below. (*) - stop could be eliminated
Station Train xfer Bus xfer
New Utrect Av D & N B 23/ B9 (60 St)
18 Av/ 54 St B8
McDonald Av/Av H F (at Ave I) B11 (at Ave I)
Coney Is Av* B11, B68 (Ave I)
Ave H/ E 14 St Q
Ocean Av * B49
Brooklyn College 2 & 5 B6 (Glenwood Rd)
(Flatbush - Nostrand Avs) B11, B41, B44, Q35, B103
Albany Av/Ave H B6, B103
Utica Av/Farragut Rd B46
Kings Hwy/ Farragut Rd B7
Ralph Av/ Chase CT B47
Remsen Av (Brooklyn Term) B17
Rockaway Av/Ditmas Av B60
Onto the Canarsie Line
I think the following would be a great group of stations:
*Jamaica(Connect E, J, Z, Q6, Q8, Q9, Q20A, Q20B, Q24, Q30, Q31, Q40, Q41, Q43, Q43, Q54, Q56, Q60, All LIRR xcept PW)
*Richmond Hill(Connect J, Z, Q10, Q55, Q56)
*Woodhaven BLVD(Connect Q11, Q23, Q53)
Glendale
NYA Yard(NYA Employees only)
Myrtle Av(Connect B13, B20, Q55)
*Broadway Junction/East New York(Connect A, C, L, J, Z, B12, B20, Q24, B25, B40, Q56, B83, LIRR Atlantic Av)
*Brownsville(Connect L, 2, 3, B14)
New Lots(Connect L, B15)
Remsen Village(Connect B17)
Kings Highway(Connect B7, B46)
*Flatbush(Brooklyn College)(Connect 2, 5, B6, B11, Q35, B41, B44, B103)
Av H/E14th St/Coney Island Av(Connect Q, X29, B68)
*Parkville(Connect Q, B8, B11)
*New Utrecht(Connect N, M, W, B9, B23)
Fort Hamilton Parkway(Connect N, B16, B70)
*Third Av(Connect B9, X27, X37, B37)
*Bay Ridge(Connect NY Water Taxi to Red Hook and Pier 11
*-express stop
Those trains will be emptier that a movie theater screening Gigli.
Now that's just not true. If driving is faster than the subway, how come a J train can pass by overhead while driving down Broadway and we'll never catch up with it? (This is on WEEKENDS, mind you, with little traffic and J trains making all stops.)
(1) Public Park Land -- "Rails to Trails" (should the line become abandoned)
(2) Subway layup yard (for Flatbush/Nostrand trains of the #2 & 5 lines)
Does anyone have a map of what this station looked like when it opened around 1907? I'd like to know where all the stairways and passages are.
1) At the southern end of the downtown side platform, there is an open gate, beyon which there is a stairway going down and further along, a stairway going up. Construction materials are currently being stored in the area. I imagine that the stairway going down connects to an underpass leading to the island and other side platform, but I have no idea where the stairway going up goes.
2) At the southern end of the uptown platform, there is a stairway going down (now surrounded by cinder blocks and hidden behind a steel door). There is also an ancient, faded sign hanging in the dark saying "TO EXPRESS TRAINS", so I'm sure there is a connecting passageway down there. To the right of that staircase, a short passageway leads away, ending in a left turn. The walls are tiled in this area. I imagine there is a stairway going up after the left turn, but I don't know if there is one there or where it may go.
3) About halfway down the same passageway, another stairway going down was recently uncovered by excavation. The stairway appears to have been covered over with wood at about the third step, but its clearly a former passenger stairway.
Anyone know anything about these?
What was their exact route/what were they signed as?
While the D not able to go to Brooklyn and terminating at 34th st, they went normal to 34th st, came in on the S/B (B train side) 34th st platform, discharged and fumigated before running lite back to Concourse Yard.
----
The only reason a Yankee special should run local is so people can get to the local stops on the West Side, not so people on the West Side can get to Midtown or Brooklyn.
----
Doesn't matter what the reason is people will find a way to use the service for other purposes, like Brighton Express, Museum of Natural History and a one seat ride from CPW to the Concourse(if going to 167th Street). Of course to provide one east rides from CPW to Yankee Stadium, it would be good to run the B local from that point of view(not just for Lincoln but for all of CPW)
Maybe (B) should run on summer weekends depending upon ridership of course.
And as far as the D stopping at DeKalb situation goes, I would again suggest that "JEFFJAGUAR" or any other interested party ride a southbound N train from DeKalb Avenue to Pacific Street and look out the "railfan window." Even though different sections of track are involved, doing so would give a pretty good idea as to one reason why D trains will be bypassing DeKalb Avenue even during off-hours. Another is this: there is precious little demand for such a service outside of the rush hours and middays.
David
There is not much demand for BRIGHTON/Sixth Avenue service outside of rush hours and weekday middays, which is why the main Brighton service is to operate via Broadway in Manhattan (Q). Passengers on the extreme southern end of the Brighton Line who get on along Sixth Avenue can take the D to Coney Island and transfer to the Q there. It won't be across the platform and it'll be exposed to the weather, but the walk will be shorter than at either 34th Street or Atlantic/Pacific.
David
Instead of being vague because quite frankly I don't have the time and/or inclination to check it out...what is specifically the big deal of stopping the D at DeKalb non peak hours?
And you keep saying there is precious little demand for Sixth Avenue service on the Brighton line non rush hours, how do you know? You mean nobody taking the Brighton line (or very few people) want to go to Grand Street? How do you know? Nobody is taking classes at NYU or wants to take advantage of the Village and use W 4th Street, certainly a popular destination weekends. How do you know?
I really intended to shut up but somebody else brought up the Yankee specials and I tried simply to be factual of what is going on and I really tried to do it in a non perjorative manner.
I haven't bashed the new service plan over all...I have no problem calling what used to be the D train the B train, it doesn't annoy me. I have really no problem with not running Sixth Avenue service on the Brighton line nights and weekends; in essence NYC Transit wants to make Brighton a Broadway line while 4th Avenue is both and yes I understand 4th Avenue is an amalgamation of 3 different lines. But I would think overall, passenger traffic on 4th Avenue is not that substantially higher than Brighton.
So we've come full circle. Specifically, what are the problems in having the D train stop at DeKalb when the B is not running? Since the B is not running, there is only 1 train running on the outer wall of DeKalb i.e. the Q. I understand to get from Pacific to DeKalb the D would have to merge onto the local track first but there is only 1 service on the local track at Pacific during the hours we are talking about i.e. the R, right?
I'm not going to keep on with this because it is boring to many and the point has been made ad nauseum. But you will never convince me that if there was a degree of fairness to a sizable minority of passengers in all this, the D can easily be scheduled to stop at DeKalb to give Brighton riders who want the service without inconveniencing D riders in the slightest.
As I remember the so called survey they took at a time when only Broadway service was running on the Brighton was something like 60-40 so apprently there are many Brighton riders who want convenient 6th Avenue service and not have to trudge through tunnels with a walk that could be for some 8 minutes truding a baby carriage and if they just miss the next D train, this has added 16 minutes or so to their journey
In any event, this is my last post on this subject because I guess you have your view point as somebody who apparently works or has worked for NYC Transit and I have my opinion based on what I perceive to be the needs of some people.
Regards
Yes, the Atlantic/Pacific walk is a long one, but it is far from the only way to transfer if DeKalb is not available.
The maneuver from the Manhattan Bridge through DeKalb Avenue (against the wall) to Pacific Street (on the express) is a slow one. "David of Broadway" mentioned the reason the last time I hinted at it. Look at the track maps on this site for more.
The service design effort for Manhattan Bridge was not done in a day, and it wasn't done with an eye toward inconveniencing any particular group of riders. It took several months of painstaking research to determine where the riders were coming from and where they were going and then to determine how those needs could be met within the limitations of the system's physical plant. Sure, someone is going to have a longer/less convenient trip. Nothing that could ever be done would please every single passenger. But it's likely that the service plan as designed will help far more people than it will hurt, and that the "hurt" will not be that great (after all, people will still be able to get where they're going, even if they have to make a long transfer to do it).
David
167 St/Concourse
Brighton Beach
D Conc/6 Av/Brighton
Stopping at (northbound)
- All Brighton Express stations through Prospect Park -
Atlantic Av
DeKalb Avenue
West 4th Street
34th St
42nd St
Rockefeller Center
7 Av/53 St
Columbus Circle
125 St
161 St-River Av
167 St
As for laying this thing up, on weekends, it can use the middle track north of 167. But for rush hours, Concourse Yard will have to do.
They'll be the only D trains to run on the Brighton after 2/22.
That's a CRAZY idea!
New Anger-Powered Cars May Revolutionize the Way We Drive
Mark
I can't stop laughing at this though:
"The anger-powered car will be aimed solidly at the middle of the market. Options such as semi-tinted glower windows, auto-locking brakes, and a baffling array of randomly blinking warning lights will be standard on all models.
"Production models will have angry-punch-absorbing energy-conversion pads in the dashboards, steering wheels, and driver-side doors," Chrysler Group chief executive Dieter Zetsche said. "Sound-sensitive materials in the cars' interiors will convert livid outbursts into motive power. And, because an angry driver is, in this case, a better driver, literally hundreds of anger- and performance-enhancing options will be available, including loud, ineffective mufflers, talk-station-only radios, truly intermittent wipers, steering wheels which imperceptibly tilt forward over the course of an hour, and excruciatingly well-heated seats.""
That's so true!!!!! It's also the reason why I take the bus when I can now/again.
Okey, I wanted to take this train. What does this mean for me??
What's so special about a stub train? And does alternate Transportation mean AmBUS!?!?!
Does this mean that, even with a "stub train", it's going to take forever to travel now?
What was this tower called and when was it used? I thought BROOK tower controlled the tracks in that terminal.
"The M7s are not a system-wide panacea by any means. For example, M7s cannot operate on the New Haven Line. In fact, there are no new car purchases funded for the New Haven Line in the near future. We will continue to perform an overhaul and replacement of the critical systems on our New Haven Line M2 fleet, a program that was begun last year. Replacing critical systems will extend the life of those cars, but it will not correct the inherent design vulnerabilities with which the cars were built - the electrical subsystems will still be exposed to the elements. We must continue to maintain an aging fleet with limited shop space on all three lines. We will continue to work diligently to provide the best service we can under these conditions."
Note the phrase "inherent design vulnerabilities".
Regards,
Jimmy
The best solution is probably to go to conventional coaches with pull-push diesel/electric power, or with electric power with both catenary and third rail capability.
The NJARP was pushing for NJT to buy more EMUs, and really, NJT's system is more suited for EMUs anyway. And, they made a great case for more EMUs vs DDs. Of course, NJT didn't listen, but look who's running it...
I bet when the double deckers arrive, you'll see even MORE padding added.
What problem would this solve?
The third rail isn't the problem with the M2s, the same design flaws that affect the M1s are. It's a more significant problem for New Haven because the M2s make up a far larger proportion of the New Haven fleet than the M1s do of the Harlem and Hudson fleet.
Mark
Regards,
Jimmy
It's a tiny bit, but not much, more than half.
New Haven, three quarters.
(MU fleet only, M1/M1+M3 and M2/M2+M4+M6)
On the other hand, LI M1s were 80% of the MU fleet until the M7s started arriving and the M1s started going south. I don't know the exact numbers right now, but in light of this, maybe the New Haven problem also has a maintenance component to it? (Although it's hard to imagine any maintenance problem worse than the LI M1s.)
Mark
Right now, Metro North has maintenance staff permanently located at Pelham (where the power switch is made). They are thinking of having an emergency diesel switch engine at New Rochelle.
I se every few ACMU trains on the harlem line. Maybe 1 out of 20 on a snowy day, less on a nice day.
Plus, half the Hudson line service is Dual Modes to Poughkeepsie.
There are 24 trains from Croton or closer, and 11 trains from north of Croton in the morning peak period.
Some people at least seem to agree that if you get to Atlantic and Flatbush you can transfer (now that the station will be nicer). A little tough at peak hour. Reasonable the rest of the time.
For the more frugally minded, that would be the "preferred option", and it would not interfere with subway operations.
PHILIP HOM
On a similar subject: what is with everyone and wanting to dig under Manhattan anyway? Like the controversy over the 63rd St connector, or the past 50 years of hollow SAS promises wasn't enough proof that digging rail lines under Manhattan is a bad idea, why do you wanna go heap more unbuilt lines onto the 'Never gonna do it' pile? Why not just get your shit together in Brooklyn Queens or New Jersey, where land is relatively cheap and plentiful, and where underground obstructions don't crop up every tenth of a mile? You build the yards, most of the interlockings, and all the other miscellaneous stuff in those areas, then get a TBM to dig your tunnel as deep as is practical to the chosen terminal site, screwwing with switches and other stuff under the streets of manhattan as little as possible. Do all the construction with a minimum disturbance to the city above, this isn't the 1910s, you can't do cut and cover, and this also is not the Big Dig, you are not removing an unsightly elevated highway, so people will probably not be so forgiving of construction detours and such while you install an interlocking a mile from the terminal, because you didn't plan it out.
Or they could use the Montague tunnel, and disrupt the M and R.
N Broadway Local
Plan A: Trains eould tap into the A/C subway line in the area of the Atlantic/Flatbush Av Terminal in Brooklyn and use the A/C subway tunnel to the Broadway/Fulton/Nassau St. subway complex or nearby. The A/C tunnel option would force C trains to another tunnel and possibly disrupt the rides of thousands of subway riders-a concern for straphangers. "It would be unfair, wrongheaded and political suicide," Gene Russainoff of the Straphangers Campaign said, calling that choice a long shot.
Plan B: Trains would tap into the M/N/R subway line in the area of the Atlantic Ave./Flatbush Terminal and use the Montague St. tunnel to Manhattan. They would then take the J/M/Z line to the Broadway/Fulton/Nassau St. subway complex or nearby.
Plan C: Trains would go through a tunnel built near the Atlantic Ave./Flatbush Terminal and stretchng under the river to the World Trade Center site. There would be a stop somewhere in downtown Brooklyn.
A fourth option will include some elements of the first three.
Details could not be obtained yesterday.
The four options have projected costs ranging from $2 billion to $8 billion.
My opinion is that Plan A is just boneheaded, Plan B does no good since they would have to upgrade the Montague tunnel and what line would ACTUALLY run through there? Plan C is going to be very expensive but I would rather that one. The fourth plan is unknown so I can't make any comments on that. You guys be the judge on what is best to you and for the commuters.
As the train I was on approaches 7th Ave, a man said hello to me, I said hello back. He then asked for my newspaper. I told him I wasn't finished, but this jerk continues to STARE at me. Before you know it, I told him to back the F--- off as he continues to stare at me before we reached Dekalb. No police at Dekalb so I stayed on at the opposite car end, only he followed me.
I threatned him with 2 options: Either call the police from my cell phone once we got outside and over the bridge OR threaten him if he comes any closer to me, I will deck him. Weighing my options, I exercised a 3rd option by walking away from him a 3rd time and minded my own business. Better to try to ignore that nut case than calling police and tying up bridge traffic in the process.
Q R68 2911
Next time (hopefully not!) you probably better off at bringing this guy to the conductor, at least if he tries to attack you, you have someone there to radio the PD
Then you'd have up to a thousand more people PO'd at you!
If they're PO'd, screw them. As y'all posted in the last few weeks, if the nutjob went ballistic, they'd just stand there and watch and do nothing anyway. I HOPE they would be po'd. If they're too scared to help you if something happened int he first place, they sure ain't going to do anything to you anyway!!
Personal safety doesn't stop at inconveniencing other people because of whack jobs that have an intent to harm.
Get with it. All of you that is.
As for the punks, when they threaten an NYCT, it gets real personal.
Regards,
Jimmy
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Not necessarily a good idea in a crowded subway car ...
Pepper spray actually doesn't work on certain people, most notably schizophrenics and angel dust users.
Also, it would be a Very Dumb Idea™ to discharge pepper spray in a crowded subway car. However, I see such a scenario much more likely to happen late at night with very few other people on the train, not at rush hour.
Of course, the ideal solution would be to head off the confrontation in the first place, by riding in either the first car or the conductor's car and getting the crew's attention as soon as the wacko begins acting in a threatening way.
I carried pepper spray with me for a few years while living in Chicago, especially while I was often taking the CTA home from school late at night through some less-than-prime neighborhoods. Fortunately, I never found myself in a position to use it.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Actually, now that I think about it, there's only been one occasion in my life so far where I really could have put some pepper spray to good use. It was towards the end of my sophomore year in high school, and I was taking a walk through my neighborhood one evening. Three guys followed me for a short distance, and after a brief confrontation, I found myself laying on the ground with a broken jaw. Apparently they had me confused with somebody who had spoken ill of them.
The ironic part is that this took place on the grounds of a fairly upper-class country club subdivision in Florida. After moving to Chicago a couple years later, I used to joke that our family moved to Chicago to get away from all the crime in Florida.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Anyway when we get to 71st Ave there were TONS of people jammed up at the uptown platform! I have never seen so much people at 71st Ave before! Even during morning rush hours on the downtown platform. The strange thing is everybody from 71st Tower came out and there were at least 10 cops rushing down with loudspeakers...
Anyone know what happened?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
John J. Blair,
Editor
The Green Block
One issue -- the BMT's yellow is the weakest color, so it is really less clear now that IND orange is right next to it. It is especially faded in comparison on the Brighton, where "yellow" is the full time color.
Perhaps the "yellow" lines need a narrow black line around them to make them stand out on the map.
After making enjoyable numberplate purchases, I'll stop there for a 'jumbo' map once they update them to reflect the 2/22 changes.
R21: 7201-7212-7214-7223
R22: 7640
R26: 7805-7837
R28: 7911
R36-WF: 9658-9659
They're up on the Eastern Division.
I agree, it almost blends in with the brown background of the boroughs.
I saw it on the (A) line, in an R44. I didn't get the car number.
Therefore, I proposed branching off from the 63rd Street line, over the Sunnyside Yards, to a terminal at a Port Authority Bus Terminal West. Two lanes on the LIE would become bus-only, and they would ramp off directly into the bus terminal. The bus network beyond the subway would be reorgainzed around the LIRR, with local buses finishing with an express run to the new bus terminal. There, passengers would transfer to the subway for a ride down Second Avenue or (with another transfer) 6th Avenue.
New twist. Just hook up the G to the 63rd Street Tunnel instead of the Queens Line, and put the new bus terminal at either Court Square or (if land is too scarce there) 21st Street. Run 10 car trains on the G, with 10 to 15 per hour. IF that is too much service further down, terminate many of them at Bedford and turn them around. Otherwise, the G would run from Church Avenue to Hanover Square.
E and V riders could change to the Second Avenue G at Court Square. f riders could do it on Roosevelt Island. And, of course, off of Queens not within a reasonable distance of a subway or LIRR stop could take a bus to the Port Authority Bus Terminal East to the G to the Second Avenue Line in Manhattan.
Canal St and Bourbon St (oh my head still hurts)
Canal Street (notice sign on side of streetcar)
Canal Street Streetcar on St Charles Line on way back to carbarn from testing on Canal St
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Canal St and Bourbon St (oh my head still hurts)
Canal Street (notice sign on side of streetcar)
Canal Street Streetcar on St Charles Line on way back to carbarn from testing on Canal St
I notice the inside frame trucks on the cars. Is 2011 one of the cars with its control system from ex-SEPTA PCC or brand new?
I'll be in that region for three weeks over in Mississippi (one hour away) that will include a three day weekend and Fat Tuesday (I'm down there for training, not 100% all fun).
My 35MM SLR will get its annual workout.
PHILIP HOM
Mark
Have fun!
Mark
Desire Streetcar Project
Mark
The future of streetcars in N'awlins looks good. The tourists love the Riverfront line and the St Charles line (also used by commuters). The Canal St line will be well used as the current Canal St bus was always packed, and stuck in traffic. After a night on Bourbon St, it would have been nice to "crawl" to the trol, eh streetcar instead of the bus to get back to the hotel too.
It's been a couple years since I was in New Orleans, but I do remember Canal buses running in the median.
I'm not sure if the usual arguements that commuters who won't ride a bus will ride a streetcar can apply here, because I'm not sure the line serves many residential areas. But the Canal streetcar does signal the beginnings of an effort to re-establish streetcars in New Orleans, and if successful it could pave the way for future projects like the Desire streetcar that do serve residential areas, and would be used by locals for regular transportation.
These are just some guesses off the top of my head, but that's what comes to mind at least.
Mark
Actually, I think the lower part of Canal Street could use some revitalization, too. Even though that's where the tourists go, and it feels safer there, there still some abandoned store fronts, and almost all the second-floor and higher space looked unoccupied when I was there just last month. There are touristy gift shops, but no businesses of the type that serve everyday needs, like grocery stores, hardware stores, etc. Even Werlein's Music, mentioned in the opening pages of my favorite novel A Confederacy of Dunces, is
gone and it's shell of a building no longer occupied. You'd think all that space above the storefronts would be in-demand as residential space.
Let's hope the streetcar is part of a bigger effort to get things turned around.
Mark
Maybe for 20-somethings or yuppies. I think most families choose their homes, if they're financially able, with schools prominently in mind. I can't imagine the inner-city schools in N.O. can compete, quality-wise, with the schools in the 'burbs. Just a guess.
That's actually one of the the first steps in bringing residents back into a city: first draw the people without children, younger adults and empty-nesters, let them build up the tax base so that the city can afford better schools, and then the city becomes more attractive to families.
Mark
Mark
I agree with you that the tourists are more likely to ride streetcars than buses.
I'll have to re-post my write-up of my visit to N.O., where I saw the car-barn and the Canal prototype car. Sadly, the Canal line revival was only on the drawing board then.
For now, I have Toronto up: Keystone Transit Page
Mark
This is something that hasn't happened for almost a century.
Not just a rebuild of cars, but cars built from scratch.
As Brill, St. Louis, Kuhlman and the other builders delivered "ready-to-run" cars to the companies from about 1903 on, the art of building them itself in its own shops declined sharply and vansihed.
Elmer Von Dulan, the head of RTA's streetcar shops is a street railway man with a link to the past.
As RTA was getting into the streetcar era again, of course the vendors of today were "pitching their wares", Elmer and his crew discovered thay could build the cars themselves for less than the vendors could.
And build them they did.
Didn't they order the running gear from Tatra, and build around that?
Mark
Oh by the way, here's a photo of the Carrollton shops off the St Charles line that I took back in Feb of 2000. That was before all the Canal St units were built, and before they even began construction on the Canal Street route:
The Carrollton Shops do everything.
TATRA (or whoever supplies the control equipment and trucks/motors) ships it to Carrollton and Elmer and his wizards do everything.
They take a pile of parts, steel, wires and wood and a streetcar emerges.
It's an amazing story, It's 100% true, and the press and the transit industry ignores it.
The really amazing part is that Carrollton is a carhouse, not a major shop. The people who work for Elmer are a "do anything" crew. They have a first-class machine shop (anybody who runs a streetcar or Light Rail line better have one, or you'll spend a fortune in getting parts made), they maintain a fleet of 1924 Perley Thomas cars, and they build entire streetcars.
MONSTER STREETCAR!
It seems like they've become good out of necessity: where do you buy parts for a streetcar built in 1920? They sound like the mechanics in Cuba who have have kept cars from the 1950s running ever since the revolution.
Mark
You can't buy parts for Brill trucks, WH controllers, resistance grids, flip-over seats, and everything else it takes. Some things, like axle-cap bearings can be shopped out, but expect to spend $$$, lots of $$$ if you out-shop it.
Build your own machine shop and you can do almost everything.
Some things, like springs for trucks and trolley poles, are still available at reasonable prices.
It's a re-creation of what the transit industry did every day.
He gave me an informal tour of the barn on my visit 2 or 3 years ago. I was amazed when he told me they were building the Canal cars in-house!
Mark
Now I didn't take a photo of the opposite side of Carrollton Ave, but the neutral ground is on that side also (going towards where the Canal Street line is now), except no tracks of course. I am going to assume that the St Charles Line used to go further on Carrollton, once connecting to what is now the rebuilt section of the Canal St line. I can't verify this. It has been very hard to find an old map of the streetcars of New Orleans online. If anyone knows of one, I would love to see it, and also see if my theory is correct.
or as someone posted today in response to a posting I did on another board:
"no one, rails are dirty and ugly"
This was in response to putting in a rail line through 3 downtowns and a medical campus in addition to the current 170% at capacity highway.
Many of New Orleans' streetcar routes were on what they call "neutral ground". Unfortunately even those lines couldn't escape the bus madness years ago, and were ripped up, all except the St Charles Line, as seen in this "railfan" view of the "neutral ground".
Very popular technique in Europe. First picture is Orleans, France, and second is Amsterdam, Netherlands.
>Good photos. I like the frontal shot of streetcar #2014, the one of #2011, and the side/front shot of #2011. Those are the shots I like, and the shots I take (besides interior and cab shots).
A cable car in New Orleans seems especially odd seeing how it doesn't have, you know, hills.
Mark
So here's the link for a short history of NO's very interesting streetcar system. NO is doing well with 150+ years of continual service in a very colorful city:
http://world.nycsubway.org/us/neworleans/index.html
Mark
Great pix ! Thanks for posting them !
What do you have for St. Charles and Poydras ?
What clubs did you do on Bourbon Street ?
Reminds me of the trolley I rode in 1980 from downtown Cleveland out to Shaker Heights that ran down the median strip of some Eastern Parkway-type main auto route. Last time I posted about this, another SubTalker identified this route for me, and said it was still in operation.
I don't remember getting off the streetcar at Poydras and St Charles, so I don't have any photos right there of the streetcars. I did ride through there on the streetcar, and my hotel's free shuttle bus used Poydras St as it's route to the riverfront and French Quarter. I used that bus quite often when I didn't want to walk. I forgot what was on the corners there at Poydras and St Charles.
What clubs did you do on Bourbon Street ?
There were so many. Some I don't even know the names of because you kind of walk in and out a lot there in a daze. I did spend a lot of time in the Bourbon St Blues Club at the corner of Bourbon and I think either St Louis St or Toulouse St. That place is so much fun, and they have a balcony upstairs too where you can throw your beads from.....of just hang out and watch the crowds. Razzoo a few doors down was also a cool place with a backyard courtyard with a flaming fountain. There were many others.
I bought a book in New Orleans, "New Orleans Before and After", and has great comparision photos. Bourbon Street actually had a streetcar running down it at one time. I believe I read somewhere that Bourbon and neighboring Royal St were used for opposing traffic on the line. I think it may have been part of the original Desire Route, but not sure. It was so amazing to see streetcar tracks on Bourbon St, camparing that old scene to the one below taken from the balcony of the Bourbon St Blues Club (in one of the more tame shots). I can't believe a streetcar actually went down that street, it wouldn't get far nowadays:
I wonder what Bourbon Street looks like during the Mardi Gras ?
Bourbon Street still is a through street, but every night around 8:00 they shut it down to vehicles. It's an absolute must, because it gets so crowded (every night). Notice from the photo, the cars on the cross streets even get backed up for blocks. It was a lot of fun in that Mardi Gras time.
As for Poydras and St Charles, it didn't seem like too bad of a neighborhood there. It actually seemed pretty nice. Canal St and Poydras as you get near the Mississippi are very touristy. However, Canal St west of Dauphine St looks a bit seedy. It sort of has a Jamaica Ave look, except with prettier buildings. It also has a "has-been" look past that point (like Jamaica) with at least 3 or 4 abandoned or little used theaters (beautiful buildings), and empty department stores. The stores that are not vacant have $.99 like stores in them. The buildings are beautiful though, and hope is coming.
This is changing too, as some big named hotels have renovated some of the old hotels along Canal St. The Ritz Carlton and the Raddisson at Canal and La Salle, as well as others are bound to improve the street. It's inevidable. The Canal St streetcar route will also bring more tourists through there.
Another thing to remember is that New Orleans is a very old city, and they want to keep that look. They have all kinds of laws protecting the buildings. Some of the sidewalks are also 200 years old! They want to keep that look. This old look also gives New Orleans, sort of a run-down look. But they love the old look, and go through lengths to maintain it. Gaslamps still run lit on many buildings. Where else can you ride a 150 year old streetcar route that had been running continuously. And the restored routes also look very old. The lampposts on Canal St holding up the trolley wires are also vintage lampposts, the same ones that held the wires at the turn of the century (see original post). Many of these old lampposts also exist on the steets where streetcars haven't run for decades. Many of the sidestreets still have vintage lampposts.
Mark
I've read that the New Orleans accent is similar to a Brooklyn accent, and that the Mardi Gras is now, among other things, one big outdoor gay costume party (drag ball)like NYC's Halloween Parade in Greenwich Village. Your observations, please ?
Mark
Hoboken on the Gulf of Mexico ... I half-expect part of Florida to secede, and become a new state ... South New York !
A lot of Southerners think it already has!
And I try to be aware of accent differences...being from Mississippi I've seen too many movies where Mississippians are shown talking like they're from Charleston...wrong, wrong, wrong.
Mark
I better keep this on topic:
Mark
No eating or drinking on the streetcars or buses allowed though.....interesting considering people seem to be "drinking" everywhere in that town, even in the stores like the Virgin Record Store, and all the stores around there people are carrying a beer or something.
OK, thanks. A friend of mine from HS, who got involved in the gay scene in 1975, and travelled all around the USA on a Greyhound AmeriPass (I hereby plead being on topic !) said to me at the time that New Orleans, rather than NYC, was the REAL American "Sin City" of the male gay scene. In retrospect, I wonder : why not San Francisco ?
Mark
Read more here.
Or at least, does this link work
Try this code:
<a href="http://www.transitgallery.com/showpic.php?aid=48&uuid=27&pid=8000">
<img src="http://www.transitgallery.com/data/02e74f10e0327ad868d138f2b4fdd6f0/48_p8000.jpg" width="40" height="30">
</a>
to get this:
: ) Elias
i've got a canon a80 and I LOVE it. if you are considering the s400, then move over to the a80. more manual features, and the flip out lcd make it rock. www.dpreview.com
I would pick......
Olympus C4040
Olympus C5050
Olympus C5060
Sony F717
Sony F828
Or the Canon EOS Rebel
Trevor
My major criteria were 5Mp (as I was buying a new one, why not?) and pocketability. I really like the size of the S50, compared with the C4000, and the picture quality is excellent.
The drawback to such a small camera is that the flash is pretty tiny, but I did manage to get some decent shots of the Trenton terminus of the River Line last December, which I will post one of these months…
Chuck Greene
Time to say " This is a brooklyn bridge bound 5 express train" 2.3 seconds
Time to say " This is a brooklyn bridge bound 6 train" 3.2 seconds.
Amazing! :)
Then I had to literally jump off the streetcar when I noticed this coming in the distance:
And literally almost fell on the tracks when THIS came by the next day out of no where. This "train" is coming towards me in the following photo. The New Orleans Belt business car was being PUSHED by the engine!
Believe it or not, this is the BACK of the train:
.....And for you MTV Real World fans...right along the St Charles Streetcar tracks is the now seemingly falling apart "Real World House" at Saint Charles and Third:
At the very least I'll settle for that MK1200G. At least I think that's what that is, it doesn't look like that rather ill-fated EMD switcher of late which looked similar (GP15D/GP20D?). Of course the MK1200G wasn't exactly successful - I think Morrison-Knudson had it's stars crossed from the very moment they got the idea to manufacture a locomotive of their own - but IIRC they sold a few to railroads like UP, NOPB, and that LA switching railroad who's name escapes me (do they still run CF7s, or have they got all MK1200Gs now?).
John
This would be great, and really make feasible restoring reroutes from 6th Av. to the Montague tunnel! It would allow either northbound or southbound trains to turn on J1, and without going onto the bridge approach to access J4 (Essex middle) in order to access 151B to J4 and/or 145 to BJ2! They wouldn't even block J service, which would stay on J4, except just when crossing over. The home signal at the end of the station before the bridge is at J1-69, and the reverse marker signal (the permanent R/R marking the end of traffic in that direction) protecting the BJ1 turnout (127) is at J1-63, 600 ft from the home signal, meaning that a 600 ft train would fit between the two interlockings, though the last car would be out of the station. The platform could possibly be extended, though some columns imbedded in the wall may be in the way. The marker, would of course be replaced with a home signal. But then, not only would it be a simple in and out (changing ends) move from the platform, but the 68's from the D could be used, because it doesn't go out onto the bridge. (Perhaps you would just not open the rear, if the platform is not extended, and any obstructions to 75ft cars added on the line north of Broad would be moved.)
There is a switch 161(?) between J1 and J3 closer to Bowery, but I don't think there is another opening in the wall between J3 and J4 between there and Bowery, so that probably won't be where the new switch is placed. I'm trying to see where the spaces in all the walls are to figure if it could still be placed west of 151, but I'm hoping they will allow 151 to be accessible to J1.
An even more logical place to run the switch, to make the crossover smoother, would be to use the unused J3 trackbed that extends into Essex. Yes, the J3 trackbed does enter the station, even though you would think it would be where the middle platform is. If you look down J1, you will see an empty trackbed leading to the immediate right, followed by a track leading to the right after that. That track is actually J1, and the track going straight into the darkness is BJ1! (When waiting for a train, you expect it to come from straight, but it actually comes from the right). So the J3 and J4 trackways separated to allow for the platform, and of course, J3 merges before it gets there. The J1 trackway would have gone into the trolley terminal space, but the track moves across the J3 bed into the station. If they used the J3 trackbed, however, it would require another switch before 127 to BJ1, and you would lose the extra space beyond the end of the platform. Then you would have just enough space for the 8 car trains, unless they could move the signal on the other end of the station back (to 70+00, perhaps, but then it would be around the bend, and closer to the switch leading to the bridge). Perhaps then, any scheduled weekend or midnight D reroutes would borrow M equipment from the south, and B equipment from the north, if using R40's (but 2 cars would have to be cut off each; perhaps too much work for the yard jobs).
This is all in conjunction with an idea I had to connect J1 from Essex and Canal with J1 to Chambers (which currently ends in the old Manh. Br. approach). That way, rerouted trains heading south would stay on J1 until the interlockings north of Chambers, where they would cross over to J2/R2, and continue to Bklyn. They way they are doing it now, it would have to cross to J4 after Canal, which will be the Queensbound track, and wrong rail for a whole station before it can switch to J2, which of course is too disruptive to the J service.
This could be used also for when the work is on 53rd. st. or somewhere else requiring D's to be rerouted via 8th Av. or the local track south of West 4th. Northbound they could cross over at Bway-Laf., but southbound, where there is no switch (Don't know why they didn't put one back in while there was no D service to Grand, and new tracks were put down!), it would go via BJ1 to Essex, and then J1 to J2/R2. Even for any northbound train rerouted via J1 (revenue run around stalled train on J4, non-revenue train, D going northbound, etc), it would be easier, since you would go straight, and not over switches to J4, only to have to swing back to J1 at Canal. The switch that will be used to go from J4 to J1 would still be there, plus the turnout to the existing J1 in the layup area, and J3 would cross J1 with a double slip switch so you could have increased flexibility in moving from J1 to J3 and still have its layup space in the old bridge loop (I believe there would still be space for an 8 car train on both stub tracks). So then J3 between the switches at Chambers and Canal would also still be available for layups or storage.
So I was wondering where I could find out more, and perhaps see the actual proposed track plan (as well as when it is supposed to be finished). I looked on the MTA website under capital construction, and a couple of other pages. I saw it listed in one of the PDF's, but no details. I was looking to see if I could call someone. I was given the number to Rail Operations, but the pserson was not there. Is that the right department? Does anyone here have any more info on that?
I guess the NYCTA planned to close the Northbound platform at Canal Street by sealing off its entrance over 8 years ago.
PHILIP HOM
Looking again at the new layout, I see it is not as bad as I thought. (I see where they are starting the new switch west of the other switch). I forgot that the northbound trains could simply come in on J4 and access BJ2 from there, while the J's would run around it on J1.
Really, they could have done this with the old alignment. I'm trying to remember if they used to do that, or still go out on the bridge. I've been through the reroute northbound when I was about 10-12 (had no idea where I was, and was annoyed that the front where I was looking out turned into the back, and my father wouldn't change ends. Then I went through it southbound at least once when I was a teenager, an first rediscovered th R-16's passing by).
A problem would remain for the southbound trains, though it would still be an improvement from before where they could only relay on the bridge, as the only other option was wrong railing on J1 or switching to J3, which could only take you to Canal. Neither track was signaled for the wrong direction anyway. Now, they would still come in on J1, but then reverse on J1 (Hopefully they will signal it on both directions now). The problem; if they used the new switch, which meets J4 past the switch to J2, they would be wrong railing from Bowery on J4. They could stay on J1 until Canal, but still have to wrong rail to Chambers. This would be solved once again by connecting the 2 sections of J1, so it would only cross the northbound traffic and Chambers, but not have to share a whole stretch of track with it.
With this new alignment, plus what I am suggesting for Chambers St., you could conceivably reroute the D's both directions at the same time! Nothbound, it switches from J1 at Chambers to J4 like normal, then stays on J4 until Essex, where it reverses and crosses over to BJ2. Southbound would come out of BJ1 into J1, then reverse down J1 and corss over at Chambers. The only conflicting move would be the two directions crossing over each other. (In the current proposal, they would have to single track for a distance. Even this might be feasible midnights). J4 and J1 now become pockets for both directions to reverse, something you never had before. This would be good if they had the Williambsburg Bridge closed, (I've heard a rumor that they will have to close it for lead abatement, and it will last about as long as the entire track reconstruction in 1999!) and perhaps a weekend inspection on the Manhattan Bridge northside. A shuttle for Nassu St. stations could use J2 from Essex to Chmbers, where it would terminate in J4. That would create a new era of D via Nassau to 6th Av., and eliminate the need for "split" D service when the northside only is closed for inspection, or a shuttle if both sides are closed. (they probably wouldn't restore the W since that will have a different use now). Plus as was mentioned, if the d has to go via 8th Av. both ways, without splitting it at W4.
I'm an amateur photographer with my own site and thought I would share a couple of sunset photos from the front of the Airtrain on Friday evening.
http://www.meccapixel.com/archives/000070.php
There's a selection of subway photos at http://www.meccapixel.com/archives/cat_subways.php
Any feedback is appreciated! Glad to be here...
I'm using a Canon 10D SLR. It's one very fine piece of gear...
But what I want to know is...why are many of the cloth seats already stained? What kind of people are paying $5.00 to ride this for only 10 minutes and still manage to spill stuff?
Tourists :-P
BTW, what is the best way to get to AirTrain... say by first taking a bus from Flushing (that's where I'll start off)?
Then again you can stay on it as long as you want to go back and forth from Jamaica to JFK...
Expeditions are Road Hippos.
You can't mean nycsubway.org cause it's not hosted here.
According to The Daily News "The proposals all offer one-seat rides from the airport to downtown, using AirTrain tracks from JFK to Jamaica, then to lower Manhattan via the Long Island Rail Road's Atlantic Ave. branch."
Whoever is pushing this, is very ignorant. LIRR trains can not fit in those tubes.
We are told that Governor Pataki has made it a priority. For a one-seat ride they need a train that can run on AirTrain tracks and the LIRR, yet fit into B-division subway tubes. Would that be an AirTrain?
THIS is how to do it if it has to be done at all!
Elias
That's the best idea that's been proffered for improving Commuter access to lower manhattan that I've yet to see. It allows improved access to both NJT and LIRR (both of which need that access), allows all three PANJNY airports to be linked easily, and uses nearly 100% exsisting trackage to accomplish it all. It allows NJT to continue using Sunnyside yard for their midday storage, and opens up the possiblity of something out around the Meadowlands Maitenance Center for LIRR's midday storage. Given the possible continunation of electrification on NJT, possibly including the RVL or Main Line, so as to provide more one seat rides to Manhattan, it's likely that even a new two track tunnel and a lower level to NYP as ARC recommends will only keep up with current traffic, not that which another large scale electrification would bring with it.
I suppose you Atlantic Ave nuts have the ridiculous idea that the Atlantic Ave should be extended under the east river to a lower manhattan stub terminal. And I'm sure you have a magical plan to get the LIRR out from in between the web subway tunnels there. Perhaps you might wish to look into diamonds between subway and LIRR tracks, since a new tunnel would have to dive some 50 feet in less than 100 feet, even a GM10B couldn't haul 7 passenger cars up out of that tunnel (let alone itself).
Why not just leave the past behind, turn the Atlantic Ave branch over to NYCTA to make a super-express, and start with a clean sheet? Completely revamp the old Montaulk line, which is still an active railroad, electrify it at both 11.5kv cat and 600vdc 3rd rail (if we have to), build a connector to Sunnyside and the Port Washington branch from it, and either upgrade the crossings or grade-separate it. Even getting 2 or 4 20 foot wide TBMs to bore double-track tunnels all the way to NJ is likely to be cheaper and less of a hassle than trying to untangle the Atlantic Ave line from the knot of subway lines at Flatbush.
But I suppose a person who rides SEPTA does? ;)
Also it should be readily apparant to anyone who reads the content of this site and has followed Subtalk for any appreciable amount of time that the Atlantic Ave option is a basic non-starter. The IRT and LIRR are at the same level at the top of the 50 foot tall knot of subway lines. You cannot drop more than 50 feet to clear the lowerst subway, and you cannot go any shallower without completely rebuilding the street above. The only option by which the Atlantic Ave alternative is viable is to take a TBM some distance back from the whole intersection and drill down, diving under the knotted subway lines and connecting to whatever new east river tunnel provides service to their stub terminal in Lower Manhattan. Of course this option would require rebuilding the Flatbush Ave terminal some 50-60 feet below it's current position, that is in addition to the cost of building the new Lower Manhattan terminal, two stations, both presumably deep and thus limited in how many people can access them via stairs will be very expensive to build and equip with elevators and escalators.
Of course this stub terminal does not allow through-running to NJ, and indeed excludes NJT entirely, which as I noted above is an unacceptable limitation. NJT is going to need more terminal space in Manhattan soon, especially if plans go ahead on continuing their electrification, as sounds rather likely. Within 20 years we could be looking at both the RVL and Main Line routes being electrified, and with all those people looking for their promised one seat ride to Manhattan. ARC's chosen option for a new hudson tube by the old Pennsy tunnels feeding a lower NYP level will certainly help. But NJT needs more than that, especially if Amtrak decides to increase it's TPD with the opening of ESA and the alleviating of some LIRR traffic from NYP. This joint WTC LIRR/NJT transit center is exactly what they need, it'd allow NJT and LIRR to get their lower manhattan terminals, and to split the costs between the states, since both will clearly benefit, it makes use of largely exsisting ROWs, and the tunnels would be easy to make deep-level, so as to avoid all shallow traffic, such as subways and water pipes. With the connection to Sunnyside and the PW branch LIRR would be fully able to route trains into and out of the WTC tunnel while both NJT and LIRR can make use of the Sunnyside facilities, be they exsisting or under construction currently. As Brother Elias notes on his site, "Any number of freight trains may be run through here, especially at night.", buy some ALP46s geared differently, perhaps with a 3rd rail pickup (ALP48s again, anyone? alright, they're freight this time, I won't bother your precious POS spontaneously combusting diesels) and you now have freight rolling from Elizabeth to warehouses on LI without it ever disrupting traffic on the Verrazono Narrows. The LIRR/NJT to Lower Manhattan can be combined with the Cross-Harbor Freight tunnel potentially saving billions over the prospect of creating them separately, since extending the LIRR Atlantic Ave Branch would specifically preclude that sort of option.
Just my two cents
A ridiculous idea, but one that is a priority of Governor Pataki. I suggest that you read this posting for more recent news.
Previously I thought that the plan was to run LIRR trains from Jamaica to lower Manhattan via the Atlantic Avenue branch, but the Daily News report refers to a one-seat ride from the Airport itself to lower Manhattan via the Atlantic Avenue branch. That suggests that the plan is to use AirTrains for the entire journey, as LIRR trains cannot fit into subway tunnels.
Secondly given your clear lack of ability to come up with any meaningful statement to counter my defence of Elia's plan I can only conclude that my basis in posting was sound, and aparantly irrefutable. That is of course outside of the fact that I am geographically separated from the area in question by a mere 1.01% of the world's diameter.
Do you have any legitimate complaints about my mockery of your pitiful Atlantic Ave plan and my defence of Elia's logical approach to building a Lower Manhattan LIRR/NJT station? That is of course other than 'Teh Atlantic is teh better'.
Elias has a very fine plan, but it would probably cost more than the SAS and ESA combined. I don't think that even Elias himself considers it realistic. He calls it a "vision for 2020".
I agree with the qtraindash7 (first in thread) that we should not be "wasting time and money trying to get LIRR to lower Manhattan". The Flatbush LIRR terminal provides all the service that is really needed. From there you can catch the subway (or if you don't like subways take a taxi) to lower Manhattan, or any other place that you may want to reach. But if the Governor wants it, let the Governor find a way to pay for it. Perhaps the Port Authority can help, or Brookfield Properties.
Ever hear of the MP 41? They came from Long Island via the Brooklyn Line, switched over to the Jamaca El at Chestnut Street and went over the Williamsburg Bridge into Manhattan.
Here's one of a PATH train at Harrison taken from an Amtrak train.
Well, I can't MAKE that happen, but if I'm there when it happens, I will try to get a photograph of it.
Don't now about shots of LIRR MUs and Acelas posing together.
Very nice all around.
j/k
Imagine there's no subway
It's easy if you try
No el's above us
Above us only sky
Imagine there's no trains
It isn't hard to do
No Redbirds Brighliners
Slants Arnines Triplexes too
Imagine all those people
Stuck in all the traffic...
Imagine no tunnels
I wonder if you can
No rails or trains
Imagine all the people
Breathing all the CO2...
You may think this was the past
But this was only 100 years ago
I hope someday we'll think about this
And will be thankful about our subway
Did not have time to skim through it yet, but if you are dying to get your hands on this book, now is the time. I did see a acendote devoted to the "silver spaceship" guys, one of them does perform every day inside Battery Park and covers their acts at 14th st/Union Square. They are very amusing, how do they not try to blink?
More stories later.
Both taken yesterday, the first in the morning, the second in the evening.
I myself have taken many pictures of trains on the same line, going in the same direction, entering the same station, from the same general position on the platform.
However, each one is unique in its own way. Take alook at the pics below:
Some shots atttempt to improve on a previous shot, some are just in a different lighting situation, and some are with different equipment as the subject.
I believe that I speak for many of the other transit photographers on this board when I say that transit phography is not just a hobby, it's an art form.
Of course, you also have the light from the sun reflecting off the buildings. But I am greatly impressed by the clarity of the buildings in the 8th one. The Subwayspot gallery limits the image size to 1024*768, but the full-sized 3.1 Mpx version has stunning detail!
I like the 4th, the 6th, and the 9th ones.
Last I heard, no one is forcing you to go to those specific threads.
Maybe because they are anxious to post their fuzzy, poorly lit, badly composed, uninteresting images to have other Subtalkers rave about them.
Trevor (Operational Engineer II) is the only one here who posts images here of excellant quality. The others are amateurs and below who should take a photography course and learn the basics.
Bill "Newkirk"
Nobody is attacking anyone. I'm just calling it as I see it.
"Your last paragraph seems very severe, especially since I don't ever remember you posting any sort of photograph here."
Very severe ? Check out Trevor's M-7A's photos as well as others on this site and Transitalk. Trevor isn't a professional photographer, I think he's a bus driver. I'm no pro either, but my photography is self taught, never entering a classroom.
All these young photographers have to do is peruse the images on this site. Images by Doug Grotjahn, Steve Zabel and others. Learn by how they composed their photos and used sunlight to their advantage. None of them were professional photographers by trade either.
As far as me posting images, that may take place soon. It's been on my mind as of late.
Bill "Newkirk"
Cool! I look forward to seeing them! Like I said, everyone has something good to add.
BTW, are they older ones or current? Of course the older ones are always of more interest...
Both, I would like to post some rare but unusual images that will make tongues wag ! Something has to be done to liven up this board. Stay tuned.
Bill "Newkirk"
P.S. I know it's a bus, but I put it here to illustrate a point.
I am offended by that comment. I have taken some very good pictures, and I only post here those that either (a) have quality, or (b) prove some kind of point. I would post a link to point you to where you can see ALL of my shots (both the good and the bad), but I won't, since I am assuming that you don't want to see such "junk."
[Trevor (Operational Engineer II) is the only one here who posts images here of excellant quality.]
I tend to disagree with you there. Trevor is NOT the only one who posts quality pics on this board. What about John (Bombardier)? He's taken some great shots.
[The others are amateurs and below who should take a photography course and learn the basics.]
To this, I say that yes, there are some who are just learning the basics. There are others here who have been doing transit photography for years (myself included).
Let me just say that this is not a board for the "American Idol" of photography. This is a place to share, discuss, and, yes, critique. But I wouldn't stoop so low to say that someone's picture is garbage, I would say something along the lines of "It's good, but X, Y, and Z could use a little work."
Now I admit, I'm not the best photographer in the world, but I know I'm not the worst. There are others out here that also believe that about themselves. Please don't go about shattering ambitions like this (not that mine has, but if it were a newbie, it probably would).
DISCLAIMER: This post is not intended to be flamage. It is solely the opinion of the author.
http://www.subwayspot.com/events/12804/images/slides/5LeaveTremont.html
It is obvious some people are using older cameras, or cellphone cameras, or are new to the hobby, and their photos are not as nice as others'. But they are only postin the photos to show people what they saw. They aren't entering a photography contest. I see the point of railfan-photography as being to record events and scenes that you or others may want to see now or at some time in the future. As such, it is better to have a "non-professional quality" photo of something than nothing at all.
What's wrong with "older cameras"?
That's it exactly. You're into professional quality photographs (I've bought your calendars for at least 4 years so far), but a number of Subtalkers appreciate seeing photographs for the subject and not necessarily for the quality of the photograph.
That's why I post a lot of the drek that I post here, because some people like it.
As an employee of the TA I really don't have the time for courses. If I did, I'd be finishing college, not taking photography courses.
Regardless, some of my photos were good. Some were not, I'll be the first to admit. However SubTalk has become a community of judges and that's why I stopped taking altogether. I had some great shots of the North Channel Bridge, and the first here to find good settings for digital cameras for decent underground photographs.
However, I started to get emails from members of SubTalk saying "Some of your photos suck, why bother wasting our time?" So I stopped.
So I see the solution as a ban on amateur photography. How does that sound? No posting photos unless they've been judged by a panel of 10 experts.
Sounds pretty dull to me, there'd hardly be any new photos. However there'd be NO low quality ones either. That should make some here happy.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/161652p-141618c.html
This isn't bus talk but I generally don't post over there.
Stuff like this is still newsworthy in a jaded world.
Kudos to the bus driver.
Chuck Greene
I'm glad you're not my manager. How do you contribute to positive morale if you don't occasionally give an employee a deserved "attaboy"?
--Mark
Such an attaboy is called a fair paycheck. In today's bussiness world attaboys are usually there in leiu of a fair paycheck. Anyway, if someone goes beyond the call of duty or exceeds median preformance levels then they get praise.
It's like how I believe that service workers would be paid a fair wage and should get tips if they really impress the clientell. Today tips only ensure that service workers DO NOT spin in your food or loose your luggage. It's practically extortion.
I like unspun food and tight luggage.
:0)
BTW, the owner of that bag somehow found me on my next trip west when we pulled into Metuchen, he probably was questioning the crew members of each train that went by, hoping he would find somebody that knew about it. I gave him the telephone number of the trainmaster in New York who was holding the bag, and he eventually claimed it. Unfortunately, he did not leave even a penny as a reward (according to the trainmaster ;-)), so I looked like an even bigger idiot to most who heard the story. When all was said and done, at least I don't have to keep looking over my shoulder, and I can sleep at night.
Anyway, even with all of that, it is still not our "job" to turn anything in.
Exactly. Unfortunately, there are a lot of folks who would have done otherwise... and yet they wonder why our world is in such a sorry state right now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now, if it was $170,000 .....
I then asked my branch's assistant manager to investigate. After a couple of days of work, we discovered that my SS number and another person's name had gotten mixed up in the bank's computer system. The error did not appear in the branch because a clerk had destroyed an an old signature card and prepared a new one for me, and my name and SS number was on the data card in the backup file drawer. It took a persistent effort to find the screw-up, but we finally found the real account holder and returned his money.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
With the fight at the Legislature over, proponents of the $15.8 billion transportation package are preparing for an expensive and difficult campaign to get the plan approved.
Let's all get ready for a brutal and highly offensive next couple months as the rich go against the annoyed masses.
CURRENT SERVICE TO SFO: Service from the East Bay and San Francisco is provided by Dublin/Pleasanton line. with SOME express trains from Daly City in AM rush, and to Daly City in PM rush - these express trains run on the Pittsburgh/Bay Point Line. Service to Millbrae is provided by a shuttle train.
CURRENT SERVICE TO MILLBRAE: Service from the East Bay and San Francisco is provided by the Pittsburgh/Bay Point Line. Service to SFO Airport is provided by a shuttle train.
NEW SERVICE to SFO eff 2/9/04: Service from the East Bay and San Francisco is provided by Pittsburgh/Bay Point Line. In NON Peak hours ONLY, trains will continue on to service Millbrae. During Peak hours , the Richmond Line will extend from Daly City to Millbrae, and continue on to terminate at the SFO Airport.
NEW SERVICE TO MILLBRAE eff 2/9/04: East Bay and SanFrancisco Service in PEAK hours and provided by the Richmond Line and does not stop at SFO Airport first. East Bay and SanFrancisco Service in NON peak hours is provided by the Pittsburgh/Bay Point Line and stops first at SFO Airport. Service to/from SFO Airport during Peak Hours is from the Richmond Line trains signed SF Airport, during NON peak hours it is from Pittsburgh/Bay Point line trains.
The odd thing about the change is that it is going to require A LOT of work for crews - double ending - at the SFO Airport and Millbrae station. This is because both stations are end of line, so in order to continue on to Millbrae after coming in from the East Bay TO's have to reverse ends, as is true after coming in from Millbrae to continue on to the East Bay. In the PEAK hours this will also be true at Millbrae as trains come in and then have to reverse to go to SF Airport (and the reverse on the return trip).
As to reverse moves, it would be very easy to have operators swap out at reverse points. "Fallback" staffing has been implemented on many systems for decades.
Have the media and general public caught on yet to how far below projections the ridership is?
CG
I find it quite useful in following developments in the Bay Area.
One thing the new pattern will do is actually REDUCE the number of trains and cars used for the service. Instead of having two lines serve the extension, there will be only one- except for Mon-Fri rush hours. This should be a cost savings for maintenance and power consumption. What IS interesting is that BART has essentially put into play the routing it originally wanted - crossing over US101 to a through stop at the airport then continuing on back across US101 to stop at Millbrae. The SF Airport refused to allow the routing because of the tunnelling and the construction - a joke to anyone who lives in the Bay Area, when ISN'T SFO under some form of construction!
Even if there was the money, there is so much MAJOR resistance by the peninsula communites it is certain that Millbrae is the end of the line as far as BART is concerned. Hillsborough raised cain just because of the storage tracks south of the Millbrae station - blight, noise, etc!
I understand that there is once again interested private parties in building the West Dublin Station (near I 680) as a "fill in" - the divergence of the tracks is already there as is some infrastructure .
As to the routing to and around SFO.
It is clear that the far better design would have been a SINGLE all mode transfer station with roll-on/roll-off platforms both for ADA and baggage convenience instead of the insane stair/mezzanine setup at Millbrae and the "terminal" in the airport both of which are rider hostile designs. Think about how convenient PATH to NJT/ATK is at Newark.
The old documents list Dub/Pl as E.Dublin Station, and the line designation is L30. It is and will continue to be the end of line. West Dublin is designated as L20 and was part of the original plan, but deleted, partially, to cost overuns, and pressure from the shopping complex adjacent to I-580 which did NOT want any "undesirable outsiders" ferried to shop there. There is a train control house and a communincations shack in the right of way, along with a crossover. This is the area where the station would be located. Thus it is a "fill in" not an extension to a farther point. The consortium feels that it may draw riders as it is right after the I-580/680 interchange and would provide additional parking to relieve the overcrowded and impossible to park in lots at L30. With the economy in flux, who knows for sure.
Certainly there will be no expansion for any time forseeable. Costs will not pan out, and ridership as you go out farther gets into a pattern of outersuburban commuters - inbound in AM, little to nothing all day, then outbound in PM. Not the true pattern needed to justify a "transit expenditure". Although everyone seems to prefer putting rail down the middle of the freeway, I remember that having worked on these extensions when they were being built, the greatest share of money for the Bay Point extension went to the realignment of Hwy 4. Massively expensive - and note immediately slams back to 2 lanes after Bailey Rd and BART ends, with the incessant traffic jams and accidents!
What I have always though to be interesting, and no doubt a political hot-potato is the TOTAL lack of any planned - or published planned - BART extension beyond Richmond up I-80. The most heavily used traffic corridor in the Bay Area and no plan for any relief. Whenever I would ask about it, it seemed to revolve about the need to continue along I-80 for the alignment; which would by necessity break off the Richmond line at El Cerrito del Norte leaving the Richmond Station a stub (which was unpopular and brought up cries dealing with isolationism and racism).
I agree the SFO station design suffers greatly, as does Millbrae. The signage at the airport directing passengers to BART is also abysmal. I am convinced that this is a continuation of the extreme hostility with which the SFO Airport treated the idea of having BART into the airport. The SFO station was built by the SFO Airport, not by BART; BART outfitted the station with the equipment for operation, and some of the visuals, but SFO dictated parameters. I guess we can say at least the option is there for direct train service to the airport.
Living is So Cal - is transit withdrawal extreme. Airport transit is poor and rail transit to the airport is non-existant. What amazes me is that they built a rail line down I-105 just south of LAX and they did NOT serve the airport.
Well, yes, but if you thought the old Howard Beach-JFK bus was bad, you'd *hate* the LAX shuttle. Public transportation to LAX terminates in a bus station at 96th & Wolfsburg - a decent, modern bus station, admittedly. From there you catch a shuttle, run by the airport not the MTA, that runs round the airport terminals.
The MTA's shuttle from the Green Line station runs to the bus station. So if you have tried to come to the airport by the Green Line with all your baggage, you have to tote it all on and off not one but two shuttles, changing shuttles at the bus station. Needless to say neither of the shuttles is a low-entrance, easily accessible bus either.
Did they change Vicksburg to Wolfsburg? I used that station to commute between my home in Westwood and Hughes Aircraft Company on Sepulveda Blvd, just off the southern LAX runways.
It is an OK station - a lot of lines converge there. One thing I didn't like was that the 560 San Diego Freeway Express didn't run often enough (so I used to take the Culver City 6 bus a lot). The 560 now uses Sepulveda, not the freeway, and no longer charges the extra fare they used to for freeway running south of Wilshire Blvd.
Yes, rail in LA could improve some more.
However, I stick by my criticism of the Green Line shuttle bus, which makes people use two separate shuttle buses to get from the Green Line station that allegedly serves he airport to the airport itself.
I've take the 3 bus to Westwood. It's a long, slow, meandering route. Of course it was inconvenient for me because I was taking it the whole way to UCLA. Thankfully you don't need to.
No. This is unsupported fantasy. It's at the level of the nonsense that frequently appears on this chat site about the PA vs. MTA etc. It shows up in rants.
The likely explanation is that SFO management adopted a design for signage that is inadequate, and it is taking a long time for the bureaucrats to sign off on improvements.
How do other passengers feel about the signage. Is your opinion in the majority?
I am not completely satisfed with Newark AirTrain's airport signage either - I had to hunt around for it a little when I used Newark Airport - and this is the PA's own system!
First let me say that though retired now, I worked for BART for over 26 years, and I still do consulting work for BART, and have lived in SF for over 25 years.
Bay Area Politics is not your usual pot of tea. First, SF Airport is run by the SF Airport Commission, and the Airport although located physically in San Mateo County is actually part of the City and County of SF. Although the Commission staffs the Management team, the Commission itself is appointed by the Ciy Bureaucracy of SF, with extreme pressure from the Mayors office and of course some from the Board of Supervisors. There is now a New Airports Director, as outgoing Mayor Willie Brown wanted the old one gone. Airport police are SFPD, not San Mateo County.
A battle royal went on for many years once it became obvious that the Airport did not want any part of BART inside the terminal area. Congressional influence and pressure was brought to bear, the Airport wanted a station across the US 101 freeway which would connect to the AIR TRAIN - the people mover system to bring passengers to the terminal areas. BART wanted a station inside the terminal area, from which trains would continue on southbound. Eventually the impass came to a head, and a vote (ballot) was held in SF which said INSIDE the airport; and that result went to Washington. It resulted in the present "Y" shaped track configuration.
BART PAYS RENT to the SFO Airport for the station and had to give Airport employees and Airline Employees discounts in order to gain Federal approval, so the road to the service is clearly not a loved one. Of course TAXI drivers and Airport bus and shutlles have been adversely affected since service began - that is to be figured though.
In Europe the signs directing passengers to trains and busses in the airports I have used are EXCELLENT; perhaps this is because the transit or train system is normally though of as an integral part of the transportation system. In the Bay Area, at the Oakland Airport, if you want to use BART, you first have to use the AIR BART bus shuttle, and the signs directing you to the ticket machines and the bus stops are VERY CLEAR. Contrast that to SFO, signs for the AIR TRAIN, and to the BART station are muted and sort of buried in a jumble of other signs. I have had friends and visitors (quite a few from NYC) who did NOT even see the signs although they were looking for them. Or taken this way, the poor signage is moreso for ARRIVALS; if you BART to the airport, you can reverse your trip; if you are a new arrival, you may have problems. BART has requested new and updated signage, but so far no movement.
Make no mistake, I don't consider the design of the station nor the AIRTRAIN any great shakes. Both suffer from being horrendously passenger UNFRIENDLY and baggage toting UNGODLY. Level changes and lots of use of escalators (if running) and elevators, and on occasions when the AIR TRAIN breaks - you get delayed. But as I said, at least it is there - a rare event in US Cities.
Yes, that is interesting. A part of Philadelphia International Airport is in a neighboring county, though most of the airport is owned by the City of Philadelphia. But expansion plans create friction because of the jurisdictional boundaries.
"A battle royal went on for many years once it became obvious that the Airport did not want any part of BART inside the terminal area. Congressional influence and pressure was brought to bear, the Airport wanted a station across the US 101 freeway which would connect to the AIR TRAIN - the people mover system to bring passengers to the terminal areas. BART wanted a station inside the terminal area, from which trains would continue on southbound. Eventually the impass came to a head, and a vote (ballot) was held in SF which said INSIDE the airport; and that result went to Washington. "
So they wanted an AirTrain type of arrangement? Interesting. I've used SFO a couple of times, but well before there was any rail option. I do not recall if the terminal arrangement favors a circulator, as Kennedy's does.
"Make no mistake, I don't consider the design of the station nor the AIRTRAIN any great shakes. Both suffer from being horrendously passenger UNFRIENDLY and baggage toting UNGODLY."
Too many level changes then? JFK AirTrain is a moving sidewalk away from the terminals (except one terminal, where it is inside). At Jamaica or Howard Beach, you use an escalator or elevator, but I would characterize those facilities as very easy to use. Same for Newark, though signage needs to improve there.
Thanks for your post. I do visit SF from time to time, and I will be using BART next time - so I'll see it first hand.
Though probably not going to be a big issue in the elections, with the war and all. I thought this was interesting.
Doesn't sound to me like he will care too much about mass transit.
It's possible that he may not use transit himself, but recognizes its important role in certain regions.
I mean, come on, just imagine what 14 billion would have done to the (T).
And Bill Clinton campaigned on a platform that included building rail infrastructure and that disappeared almost as soon as he was elected.
Remember the old psychological saw: people are their behavior, not their words.
Virtually any Democratic Senator and some Republicans as well could show a positive voting record on rail and transit. Question is, what did he initiate? Where did he lead? How much attention did he pay to (for example) MBTA issues?
And this differs him from other candidates in what way?
Do you guys think that train service would benefit or hurt Co-op City residents? Having train service in that area could save lots of travelling time, create one seat rides and have more efficient travel. It could terminate at the Drieser or Asch Loops; in that area. Now should the D, 6 or both trains be extended there?
Here's my strengths and weaknesses on each line:
(D): Extend the D from 205 St, turn north then runs via Gun Hill Rd then curves under Bartow Av and could terminate at the Asch Loop/Bay Plaza or continue by turning north onto Baychester Av up ot the Dreiser Loop.
New stops:
Webster Av
Gun Hill Rd [with transfers to the 2/5]
Boston Rd/GH Rd
Burke Av/GH Rd? [transfer for the 5 at GH Rd, walking transfer]
Eastchester Rd
Bay Plaza/Asch Loop
Dresier Loop?
Pros:
-Gives passengers a alternative to the Bx25/26 & Bx28
-Eliminates a transfer and long ride to the 205 St station
-Also an alternative to the NYBS express bus [saves money]
Cons:
-It will be very costly
-Possible objection to the plan
-This is really a in the middle thing. The express buses are well used there but its a $4 ride round trip via subway
(6):I think that this plan is more straightforward than the D. It could just turn north and run via Baychester non-stop to Bay Plaza so people would have a choice between the Bx12 and the 6. All you would need to do is add one stop and that's it.
Pros:
-Probably the cheaper of the 2 plans
-A good alternative to the Bx12
-Would bring more shoppers to the area
-Eliminates the need to take the 2/5 to Pelham Pkwy then the Bx12, at Allerton Av for the Bx25/26, Gun Hill Rd for the Bx28 & 30. I'm sure people do that.
Cons:
-Possible objection to the plan
Overall I think that the sbuway could use an extension and that this would be great for residents of the Bronx.
I would like your opinions on this idea.
I, and other Subtalkers, proposed the #6 line extension instead. Two stations would be built, one at Bay Plaza (with a 24/7 HEET entrance at Area #5 so people won't have to walk under the Hutch.) and the one at Dreiser Loop for the north side. Of course, the line would have to be underground, it can be done along the ROW of Interstate 95 (New England Thruway) and attract more shoppers and less traffic to Bay Plaza.
Both of your ideas are outstanding.
But the D would be more viable because it's more direct and faster to Manhattan than the 6 on off peak periods.
Not from stations north of Parkchester. The < 6> midday service only runs in one direction express to Manhattan in the morning and from Manhattan after 1 PM. Also middays there are 10 minute headways north of Parkchester, same as for the D (The combined 6 line services in Manhattan are every 4 to 5 minutes during middays.)
It's hard to believe that a development with around 50,000 people living in it doesn't have subway service!
I lived in Rochdale Village - another of the same developments - in Southeastern Queens back in the late 60's. It too had no direct subway service, put a strain initially on Jamaica Buses Q111 and Q113 and the TA had to initiate a new route -the Q5AB- which has now been bundled into the Q85. Eventually, Jamaica Buses established an Express route into Manhattan. But ONE thing WAS different. The LIRR had a convienient station at Locust Manor adjacent to the development, and you COULD get a direct ride into Penn Sta or Atlantic Av.
If there was only some way of allowing some of the peak direction #6 to run express in Manhattan -
Key words here: as long as he's in business.
Trouble for Co-op City: what if he goes out of business? There will be years before a subway would get built under your assumptions, and we have all seen the problems that crop up in neighborhoods left in the lurch for several years. Jamaica come to mind?
NYBS is scheduled to end its business in the summertime. If that happens and the routes are NOT taken by another transit carrier, then the last option is the local buses and that's going to become more crowded than it already is and adds major time to commutes.
I like the idea of extending the 6 into Co-op City, with two stations in the complex. Having just one station within Co-op City would result in a large number of residents still having to take a bus to that station, and that would kinda defeat the purpose of the extension.
Peace,
ANDEE
This is a White Plains-bound 5 train. The Next stop is...South 3rd St/Columbus Ave.
Peace,
ANDEE
The rest of this highly detailed plan can be seen at the Study Development MNRR access to Penn Station Site
What are they thinking?
Figures, MTA brains.
By the way, there was train service at Co-op City when it was still Freedomland, a steam engine pulled train took people around the park. If I remember correctly, there was even an hourly train robbery of the train.
So there was frequent crime on the trains in the Bronx even before the "bad old days." :)
----
Extend it elevated from the Dyre Ave. terminus north a bit then east looping around to the north part of Coop City
----
Better to do another branch off from Pelham Parkway or Gun Hill Road and call it the IRT #8. The (8) can also be the future 10th Avenue line. The 2/5/8 line would now have 3 different branches.
1. The route is way more direct to Manhattan than the "D"
2. The "5" is not only an express, it also offers thru express service in the Bronx during rush hours.
The "6", while also offering express service in the Bronx during rush hours, is LOCAL in Manhattan, requiring one to transfer to an express (which 45% of the time would be the "5" anyway) for a faster ride downtown, or just stay on board and deal with a slow ride downtown.
Regards,
Little
I would think they'd welcome train service in Co-Op City, although that may be more than I can say for residents living along E. Gun Hill Rd who would be victim to construction. I wonder, can tunnel-boring be used, or would they have to do cut-and-cover? If the latter, then the residents would never go for it.
Regards,
Jimmy
But the Co-Op City service was definitely planned as an extension of the #6 north of Pelham Bay Park, presumably along the Bruckner r.o.w. into at least one station in Co-Op City. The proposal never got beyond the original concept stage.
What is most intersting about the 1968 program, now 36 years old, is that $2.5 billion was the total estimated cost for everything - the 2nd Ave. subway and its two Bronx connections, 63 Street Tunnel and Queens connections, extensions of the IND Queens Blvd. subway along the L.I.E. to Bayside and into southeast Queens on the LIRR Atlantic Branch r.o.w., an extension of the #2 line in Brooklyn from Flatbush/Nostrand via Flatbush Ave. to Kings Plaza, an East Side LIRR terminal, LIRR electrification to Northport and Route 110, and many smaller proposals.
I've stood upwards of 25 to 45 minutes on a weekday, waiting for a bus
towards Pelham Bay.......... no dice.
Finally, a QBx bus comes along like a #$%@#$ g*dsend, and it's a two-stop ride
to Pelham Bay for the 6 trayn... and the QBx actually operates coaches with
the heat *ON* (hear, hear TA)
Same applies in return trip, deboarding the 6 at PBP and go downstairs...
the QBx pulls up LOOOOOONG BEFORE the Bx 26-28-29 even have a chance
to warm up their toasters.
With the way the forehead of the PBP Terminal is built, it almost LOOKS
like it was meant to branch out towards the Co-ops.
1Spoken9
True, one time when I took a trip out there, I had to wait what 15 minutes before ANY Bx26, 28 or 30 came. The Bx29 headway sort of makes sense but don't forget about the Bx12 as well since half of the buses during the day only goes to Pelham Bay Park. A 6 extension woudl eliminate the need to transfer to the bus, just like how people would have a choice between the Bx26,28 & 30 and the D instead of having to transfer at 205 St or going to Bedford Park Blvd on the 4.
Hey... Psst... 4 those living in the "Loop" areas and not Bay Plaza Mall,
the 12 doesn't do peep.
The Bx12 goes to the mall... yay, cool, radical... but last time I checked
the geese all live on Hunter Ave/Stillwell (not Coney) Ave/Dreiser Loop/
Asch Loop/Hutchinson River Parkway Road/Einstein Loop........ brah.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
David
David
Peace,
ANDEE
#3 West End Jeff
Why not the 5 to Coop City? The 5 is underutilized in the Bronx. It runs very close to Coop City as it is. Extend it elevated from the Dyre Ave. terminus north a bit then east looping around to the north part of Coop City, then along the east side at grade or elevated, continuing, with 2 or 3 stops to a terminus near the south part. Less disruptive and expensive than the D or 6. There could even be peak direction express service from Dyre to 180th.
Am*n to that, and good quick PROMPT service 2 this Einstein Looper.
A short extenstion to the 6 seems most plausible. Second choice is extending the 5 which also runs just a few blocks from Co-op City
N Bwy
Main page
The main lists are here
I was reading some of these and I find their recommended and not recommended talks either very interesting, or stupid and baseless.
So I look at tampa, since Orlando might as well not even be a viable city anymore and what they had to say. Population density low and doesn't connect anything(of course they only mentioned USF and NOT downtown or Westshore Financial district, probably 70k people working there at least, guess the FTA doesn't care about that).
But how come, for a line that parallels I-275, which has zero mobility daily, that goes to the same area and origin everyone is travelign anyway not good enough. And the line is planned to end at the border of Pasco, what's this years fastest growing county(200%+ likely).
What's it take to be "viable"?
Why isn't the recommendation findings based on, "Can I drive this in a resonable amount of time?" That's good enough for me. It should take a little over an hour to get to Orlando from where I'm at, it was over 90 minutes before i passed the other side of Tampa Tuesday.
ESA is in "Final Design" (since Feb 2002).
ESA has a cost of $5.26 billion (50% federal funding) and is due for completion in 2012.
ESA will have 167,000 average weekday boardings in 2025.
ESA is to receive $100 million fed funds in 2005, in addition to $74 million in 2004 and $82 million in prior years.
SAS is in "Preliminary Engineering" (since Dec 2001).
SAS has a cost of $16.8 billion (50% federal funding) and is due for completion in 2022.
SAS will have 560,000 average weekday boardings in 2025.
SAS received $2 million fed funds in 2004, in addition to $7 million in prior years.
Both ESA and SAS have a financial rating of "medium", a project justification rating of "medium-high", and an overall project rating of "recommended".
Here is the sense. Since the fall in crime, most of our muggers live OUTSIDE New York City.
I said that the "broken windows" theory should be applied to minor which collar offenses, but wasn't because the perpetrators were white. He said the focus on street crime was rational because it was localized and could destroy a place, where as the damage from white collar crime was spread out and thus less damaging to any individual.
Well it turns out that white collar crime is destroying a place. The United States.
"Medium" is a financial rating. It has nothing to do with project justification. It seems to be a gauge of the soundness of the proposed non-federal funding sources, sort of a credit rating of the MTA and I suppose the city and state governments.
parisman
In American English, it's called "street car" or more recently "Light Rail Transit". The T1 and T2 lines in Paris are more or less considered "LRT", because of the way they were introduced.
In New York City, "tram" usually means "téléphérique" because of the "Roosevelt Island Tram" (un véritable téléphérique suisse qui fait la navette entre Manhattan et l'île de Roosevelt).
The three main Metro-North lines and the distance of their termini from New York in miles:
--New Haven line - 73 miles to New Haven, Connecticut (also 88 miles to terminus of branch line to Waterbury, Connecticut).
--Harlem line - 82 miles to terminus at Wassaic, New York.
--Hudson line - 74 miles to terminus at Poughkeepsie, New York.
LIRR - aproximately 120 miles to farthest termini - Montauk and Greenport, New York.
For a map of the New Jersey Transit system, see here.
Before you go any further into this, I thought I'd let you know that I lived in Paris for 6 years (until I was 11) back in the 70s. But yeah... My grammar probably "sucks"(I hope you know what that means).
Mark
Le Bus 38
Mark
The 6 runs 5 car trains and the 11 runs 4 car trains even though they are rubber tired. The downside of "pneu" is cost. That's why they didn't convert the rest of the system. Even the 2, which has a long enough elevated section, wasn't converted, once the MF67 stock was proven successful.
You mean 14. If you count the RER lines, it'll be 19.
Or are you counting the two bis lines as separate lines?
Also, have you checked this page on this very site?
Apparently the city center is not the business center.
According to skyscrapers.com, "the major centers of business are located around the fringes, especially in the towering cluster of buildings at La Défense. The buildings at La Défense are officially not part of Paris". La Défense is said to be "Europe's largest business center".
The map shows that La Défense is served by Metro and by RER line A, and it is also on a line from Gare St Lazare.
Question 1: Besides La Défense, are there any other major business districts in and around Paris?
Question 2: What are the historical reasons for the main business centers being in the suburbs (banlieue)?
Mark
The height limit must have been raised, as the tallest is now Tour Montparnasse, built in 1973, which has 59 floors. But I don't think it's an office building. Most of the tall buildings within the city limits seem to be apartment buildings or hotels.
Until 1969, commuter trains of French National Railways (SNCF) terminated at the Paris stations of Saint-Lazare, Montparnasse, Austerlitz, Lyon, Est and Nord. These main line commuter services were entirely separate from the Metro, which was run by the Régie Autonome des Transports Parisiens (RATP).
A major new project called RER (Réseau Express Régional) was launched to build commuter lines crossing the centre of Paris. The Master Plan approved in 1965 included the new RER Central Station at Châtelet (Les Halles). The projects in this scheme were granted major funding with the setting up of the new Ile-de-France regional authority.
There are now five RER lines, but the old SNCF commuter trains still continue to run in and out of rail terminals.
Both the Métro and the RER are run by the RATP, which receives operating subsidies. Capital costs are heavily subsidized.
There is a most interesting article from the Japan Railway & Transport Review, explaining how the Tokyo subway system influenced the design of the RER in Paris.
And a wrong thing that you said so all the RER lines are not run by RATP so The A and B are run by RATP but not entire line the C its run by the SNCF for the entire line the D is run by the SNCF most of the line the track between chatelet les halles and gare du nord is run by RATP and the E is run by SNCF.
And now you will say why the RATP doesn't run all the RER line? so its because the RATP and SNCF use two different electrical current the RATP use 1500Kv/in continue and the SNCF use 25000 Kv/ alternated.
so the A,B,D have part of the line that have not the same current.But most of the trains can pass from 1500Kv to 25000Kv and vice versa.
PARISMAN.
I suppose then that both the RATP RER lines and the RATP Metro use the same 1500V Direct Current third rail supply.
I have heard that double-deck trains run on some RER lines, perhaps including the busy line A that serves La Defense.
Z20 500:
http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/fr/electric/emu/Z20500/pix.html
MI2N or Z22 500:
http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/fr/electric/emu/Z22500/pix.html
Z20 900:
http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/fr/electric/emu/Z20900/pix.html
and another train not a 2 deck car but the one of best suburban trains because of his power and high speed the MI79 or MI84:
http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/fr/electric/emu/Z8100/pix.html
PARISMAN.
Those RER trains are really impressive and the photos are excellent. They must have very high seating capacities.
I would be interested to know how frequently the RER trains run at the busiest times of day.
As you may know, London has a plan to build "Crossrail", which would be similar to the RER in principle.
The RER A runs 30 tph in the central section and is very crowded.
I rode the MI2N on the Eole. Trains were pretty much empty at the time of the day.
The other differences between MI79 and MI84 are "less complicated mechanism" and the compatibility of platform height. MI84 aren't "quai bas" compatible. The MI79 are. The MI84 only goes to former "3rd rail high platform" territories and its extensions.
(motrices) (i don't know the word in english)
Motor cars. "Remorques" -> Trailers or trailer cars.
They are currently no trailers in the NY Subway passenger roster.
All cars are "M"
This is also a subject often discussed here. Trains on the 60th Street tube (N,W,R between Queens & Manhattan) often seem to hit over 60 mph.
In Paris, I've often experienced >80 km/h in the Dugommier-Bercy section of the 6 on MP73s, but the run around Bobigny on the 5 or near La Defense on the 1 maybe faster. Of course by now, over-the-limit-runs can only happen in the hours when "pilotage automatique" is not mandatory.
In general, NYC subway trains are fast. Much faster than Paris Metro (urbain).
The MP89 on Line 14 is indeed fast. And the super wide railfan window is a treat too.
The fastest run I experienced on a Sprague stock would probably be the Créteil extension of Line 8.
I'm not sure if I correctly understood your question but train headway wise, Paris would leave NYC system in the dust. With shorter trains, Paris had to have shorter headways. Line 4 being the most frequent.
In NYC, the 7 line had at one time as much as >30 tph(w/11 15m cars), but not right now anymore anyway. Headways are more like line 10 in Paris, but with longer trains to compensate. (OK, it's more frequent during rush, I'm exagerating a little bit)
I've read somewhere, that some politicians want to make line 1 fully automated like METEOR, to increase headways. I doubt it will happen though. A line as crowded as line 1 should remain human assisted.
A propos, we are using the same thread for different subjects too long, it's time to move on and open a different one. Non?
Riding on Growth
New Map
Terrific Picture
Mural I discovered downtown about the old line
Mark
I guess I'll have to look more carefully tommorow.
And also, have you seen any of the other murals featuring trolleys in West Philly? I think there's one featuring K-cars at 43rd and Chestnut or so, also 34th St MFL Station has a K-car on their wall. Anyone know any others?
Here's the address your link sent me to: http://www.transitgallery.com/essential/style/eng_default.css
Followed by the 404 error.
Love to see it, but something's not right.
Sean@Temple
Because the brakes were already in full service, the train line did not dump, but the motors were able bulid up considerable speed in spite of the brakes.
Elias
You can see a picture of one here:
http://www.steamfan.150m.com/Signalling/derail.jpg
And you can see pics of one shortly after it's operation here, 2nd article down, and do note the switch stand with a large 'D' on it:
http://krugtales.50megs.com/rrpictale/p010301/p010301a.htm
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/161646p-141627c.html
Link here
Is this the entrance that has the escalators and was infested with pigeons ?
If so, there are two new escalators, but I'm not sure if there is a handicapped elevator there.
Bill "Newkirk"
That is correct.
If so, there are two new escalators, but I'm not sure if there is a handicapped elevator there.
There is but it is not yet operational.
It was supposed to be replaced with a giant Trump Hotel.... Then Bloomberg came into office.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hopefully not!
M3 leaving Forest Hills...heading toward Jamaica before the evening rush
Double-decker! (Sorry I don't get a chance to ride the LIRR everyday)
R142A at BB-City Hall, just before that "No photo in subway started"
R142A at BB-City Hall -2
R127 Trash Train! Crawling slowly to Smith 9th
R127 Closer...
I have a few more to show later this week...
Enjoy
Dennis
i want to ace that test so bad.
NOW DEPARTING TRACK 27
METRO NORTH M-3 8000
YONKERS FIRST STOP
"DLR to seek powers to run longer trains
Docklands Light Railway is planning to submit a Transport and Works Act Order application by the end of February for its £130m capacity enhancement project. If approved, work could start in 2007 to improve infrastructure in order to allow three-car trains to run between Bank and Lewisham. The work includes platform lengthening and viaduct strengthening."
-- Ed Sachs
The Jubilee Line Extension was built in a hurry, in order to reach the Millennium Dome by 2000. Originally it was supposed to be the Fleet line, running along Fleet Street, and the Fleet line to Charing Cross ran for 20 years before being abandoned.
The DLR, by contrast, was built cheaply using existing rail viaducts; its popularity seems to have been underestimated.
It may have been built in a hurry, but I found the stations to be quite nice-looking.
They were built as architectural showpieces. But I hear that the actual rail service does not match the architecture. Besides, many argue that the alignment was poorly chosen, and that it should have run along Fleet Street as originally planned.
(wayne)
Both the World Financial Center and Canary Wharf were developed by the same Canadian real estate company: Olympia and York. The company named One Canada Place for its homeland.
One Canada Square (the Canary Wharf tower) is London's tallest office building, having 50 storeys. Olympia and York was owned by the Reichman family, and some called Canary Wharf Tower "Reichman's folly" when the company went bankrupt.
Only some of it is on old railway ROW; the elevated section across the Isle of Dogs is all new, and the Beckton branch mostly so. Both roughly follow the line of old railways but there was virtually no railway infrastructure left. Tower Gateway to Westferry took two tracks from the London, Tilbury and Southend line as far as Limehouse and then used the old London & Blackwall Railway's viaducts. The Stratford branch is virtually all old railway ROW, but Island Gardens to Lewisham is all new.
On the whole, to have built it cheaply, get it going, let it build up traffic, and then spend more on expanding it, seems to have been a usccessful stategy in this case.
I don't know the answer to your question, but it reinforces a point I made a few weeks ago about the huge volume of commuter rail in London. To think that there are 47 morning rush trains at just one of London's many stations (and probably one of the smaller) ... it simply boggles the mind.
It shows the approximate number of trains leaving each London terminal between 17:00 and 17:59 on a weekday.
The "railway company" column gives the name of the company that ran the line before the "grouping" into four companies in 1923. I find that easier to remember than the current train operating company (franchisee), which is subject to change.
The "station" column normally gives the name of the London terminus station, but there are some complications in the case of Thameslink which (in its present state) has both terminating trains and through trains. Victoria was originally two stations, and is still operated as two sets of lines; the station has two parts, connected by an archway. London Bridge is interesting in that it has a terminal station (the low level platforms 8 .. 16) and a through station (the high level platforms 1 .. 6), the latter being a stop on the Charing Cross and Cannon Street lines. A total of 72 trains leave London from London Bridge in the peak hour.
The "pairs of approach tracks" column applies to the narrowest point (bottleneck) through which all trains must pass on leaving the terminal. It has nothing to do with the number of tracks or platforms in the terminal station itself. For instance Cannon Street station has seven platforms and seven tracks, but all must be reached via one in track and one out track.
Any constructive comments, corrections and criticisms will be appreciated.
I don't know why this happens, but ... mind the gap!
Railway Company Station Departures Pairs of Approach Tracks
Trains leaving each London terminal between 5 and 6 PM
London Tilbury & Southend Fenchurch Street 20 1
Great Eastern Liverpool Street 56 3
Great Northern Kings Cross + Moorgate 11 + 102
Midland St Pancras + Thameslink + Moorgate15 + 42
London & North Western Euston 193
Great Central Marylebone 121
Great Western Paddington 272
London Brighton & South Coast Victoria 252
London Chatham & Dover Victoria 152
London & South Western Waterloo 494
London Brighton & South Coast London Bridge 252
London & South Eastern Charing Cross 251
London & South Eastern Cannon Street 221
London Chatham & Dover Blackfriars + Thameslink 5 + 42
TOTAL 34428
Most routes served by Charing Cross are also served by Cannon Street and vice-versa. All of these trains pass through London Bridge station but not all trains stop there because dwell times are long, resulting in a shortage of platform capacity.
In the AM peak hour (from 08:00 to 08:59), 28 trains arrive at Charing Cross and 24 arrive at Cannon Street. The stations have six and seven platforms respectively. That allows no room to store trains, so they must all leave. Some leave empty.
These two South Eastern (originally L&SER) stations are very busy because they are centrally situated. Cannon Street is in the City (the financial district) and Charing Cross is in the West End (the entertainment district). They are busy also because there is very little other service in south east London.
Roughly speaking there are five suburban lines and five long-distance lines, not counting minor deviations and short turns. Suburban lines serve the continuously built-up area. Long-distance lines serve rural and coastal areas.
The south-eastern approach via London Bridge is a notorious bottleneck. There are large numbers of trains crossing each others paths, in the same direction and in opposite directions, all without grade separation.
The Thameslink 2000 plan, currently in limbo, would add more tracks — and trains — through London Bridge.
In 1949 an experimental double-deck slam-door train was built for these suburban lines, each compartment having two levels of seats; but there were more passengers per slam-door, so dwell times were too long. Instead all suburban trains and platforms were extended from 8 to 10 cars. Loading gauge in Britain is too small for modern bi-levels.
These South Eastern lines are very old and built on brick viaducts; the arches below are rented out to small businesses.
Here's a way to compare London and New York - we'll say that Grand Central is roughly equivalent to, say, Liverpool Street, Penn Station compares to Waterloo, Atlantic Avenue is like Euston and Hunterspoint compares to Blackfriars. Hoboken will be like Paddington. All of these comparisons seem reasonably close in terms of train counts. So where are we now? New York is fully accounted for, while London still has nine busy terminals remaining!
As I said in the report on my trip to London last month, the amount of commuter train traffic in London is so gargantuan that it is nearly impossible for New Yorkers to comprehend.
For the benefit of those who may not know, three of the four tracks approaching Grand Central run in the same direction in the peak hours. Some trains that arrive in the AM peak hours stay at Grand Central all day until the PM peak hours.
That mode of operation is only possible because of the vast number of tracks and "waiting room" at Grand Central.
The reverse argument could be made for Blackfriars - the Fast lines run from Blackfriars station (0m30c - from Holborn Viaduct) to Loughborough Junction (3m39c). These actually could theoretically give more capacity, although they would never be used in such a way.
I wrongly counted the Atlantic tracks as Victoria LC&D; in fact they are already included in the two Victoria LB&SC pairs.
The so-called fast pair of Blackfriars tracks appears to narrow to a single track just outside Blackfriars station, and if so it isn't exactly a pair, so the table should probably show that each of the two LC&D terminals has one pair of approach tracks.
I rode the LTS in from Upminster to Fenchurch Street a few weeks ago, the last time I had a chance to railfan in London. I don't think there are any significant yards or sidings any closer in than East Ham - but I'm not sure. If 24 trains do have to deadhead out to East Ham during and after the morning peak, that is a lot of empty stock train-miles.
I wonder if that means this:
/=||=||=\/=||=||=\
or this:
/=||=\/=||=\/=||=\
I suppose that since the destruction of Broad St. main line trains from North Woolwich actually are less useful to commuters than the DLR, but this still seems like a red herring.
"Milestone reached for high speed rail link
Tunnelling on the second stage of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link has broken through at the St Pancras end of the route after a 24 mile burrow from east London, taking 458 days. Three million tons of earth have been excavated en-route. The tunnel will take trains from Kent on to the recently installed bridge over the East Coast Main Line to St Pancras station."
Let's see, when the 63rd Street tunnel's link to Queens Boulevard was finally completed, how long did it take to dig 1,500 feet, seven years was it?
By not being in New York?
Made up of suburban commuters.
The original Chunnel -- across the English Channe -- cost 1/2 (now 1/3) the cost of East Side Access. Now have this new rail line taking 1/18 the time of the Second Avenue Subway. They also want $4 billion for the cross-harbor rail tunnel, vs. $2 billion for the Chunnel.
Now admittedly, all they have done is dig the hole -- stations and equipment are time consuming and expensive. But digging the hole is the most dirsuptive part of the work in terms of community impact. And if the SAS hole were dug, it would be a certainty that the rest would follow sooner or later as funds became available.
Even if SAS hole took three years.
Actually, in the case of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link (CTRL) , it wasn't. Like the deep-tube parts of the Underground, the urban part of the line was dug by tunnel boring machine, not cut and cover. The rural part of the line (now open to traffic) was much fought against by NIMBYs, by the way, though they didn't prevail in the end.
The most disruptive part of the CTRL work is the reconstruction of the entire Kings Cross-St Pancras stations area.
The most expensive part of the SAS is the stations and the connections where those stations cross other subway lines. The tunneling is the easiest part.
I believe the CTRL involves only one new station (at Kings Cross/St. Pancras).
They must be referring to the 12 mile long pair of tunnels (one per track) from London St. Pancras to Dagenham.
Once the new link is complete, it would be nice if the Eurostar trains could use overhead catenary for their entire journey.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
I understand that the Eurostar trains can use either third rail or catenary, but they can only run at high speeds when collecting current from the 25kV catenary. The old third rail line will not be used for Eurostar trains when the CTRL opens in 2007.
I don't know, but the old third rail Channel Tunnel Rail Link was unsuitable for high speed operation for other reasons, such as sharing the line with slower trains. It has been said that the low voltage of third rail means that the system is prone to overload; this makes third-rail systems unsuitable for trains demanding high amounts of power such as high-speed trains.
As I understand it, this is being done anyhow because of the new train stock, which has a higher draw than what it replaced.
The major drawback of the Waterloo routing was that the ROW was over 100 years old, and not designed with high-speed trains in mind, so it was somewhat curvy!
Are there any transit-related locations or things of interest to see
within/near Wayne NJ?
MOSCOW -- An explosion rocked the Moscow metro on Friday, causing casualties, the Emergency Situation Ministry said.
Clouds of smoke filled the tunnel near the Paveletskaya station and passengers were being evacuated, ministry spokesman Viktor Beltsov said.
He could not confirm that the cause or give any further details about the number of victims. He said that rescuers were already on the site.
The explosion occurred in the second wagon of a train as it left the Paveletskaya station near the center of the Russian capital and headed southeast, the Russian news agency Interfax reported, citing emergency officials.
The Russian capital has been on alert for terrorist attacks following a series of suicide bombings that officials have blamed on Chechen rebels.
This photo has no relation to Moscow Metro. It's Paveletsky Rail Terminal. The signboard means: "Hall #3. Expresses to Airport"
The real photos of today's tragedy are here:
Where did the explosion occur?
Between Paveletskaya and Avtozavodskaya, Line 2, south-eastern branch. The map can be seen here:
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/mos/moskvamp.gif
(53 kB)
Russian TV news report that south-eastern part of Line 2 between Novokuznetskaya and Krasnogvardeyskaya is now closed and probably may reopen tomorrow. Awful street traffic jams at south-east of Moscow reported.
This rant is totally unfounded. Everytime the threat level goes up, cops swarm the subways. Even when the threat is deemed lower, there is still a large police presence in the subway. Consider was I observed a while back at High street. We were about to head to B'way Nassau when a woman with shopping bags left them at one end of the car and stormed to the other end, apparently to fight some more with her husband. When an officer saw the unattended bags, he summoned his seargeant, and they both checked the bags and then prepared to remove them. Needles to say that the woman rushed back and screamed at the cops. It doesn't get more secure than that, unless we search everyone upon entry to the subway.
And we the TA workers and TA customers are in the front line. While the top brass are being driven to work in a town car.
See, this rant is just sparked because you're mad that you're not one of those in that upper echelon of priviledge. What you want is not more security. You want a town car as well.
If the cops are sleeping, that's not upper management's fault, now is it? So to say that not a "GODDAMN!" thing is being done is actually wrong, now isn't it? The best way to stop terrorism is to stop a plan when it's in it's development stages.
Lets see what u say when what happen in Moscow happens here.
39 deaths pales in comparison to nearly 3,000.
What makes u think they can't spread in throughout the subway system?
I know that they can. I also know there's no point in worrying about it. Or screaming that nothing is being done, when it's obvious that measures have been taken to try and prevent a future attack.
Since Moscow's subway is much busier, I would imagine fewer.
http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pri&dt=040206&cat=news&st=newsrussiametrodc
This time, it's what trips from hell are made of.
Oftentimes our trips begin favorably only to go down the toilet somewhere
down the road. In other instances, the trip starts out poorly and just
continues the downward spiral from there. The trip I will discuss today
will be the latter of these two situations.
I was called for my regular 336 train (Fond du Lac, WI to Centralia, IL) on
the evening of 18 January 04. It was rather cold that evening with
temperatures hovering around the 10 degree F mark. The Glenn Yardmaster
informed me that the Machinist from the Locomotive Department was out
checking on a possible problem with my power. The train was already doubled
up and the power attached so, that point, we at least had that going for
us. Unfortunately though, this was as good as it would get.
When I boarded my power I encountered the Machinist who promptly asked me a
mechanical type question. He explained that the Car Inspector was claiming
there was in excess of 20 psi of leakage on the brake pipe of the train,
well in excess of the 5 psi of leakage allowed by Federal law. When
performing an initial terminal brake test on a train, a leakage test is
performed. This test is conducted to positively ascertain the leakage of
air from the brake pipe of the train. Excessive leakage can, and does cause
problems. Leakage must not exceed 5 psi per minute and this requirement is
Federal law. I am intending to do a piece all about brake tests and how
they are performed at some point in time.
The Car Inspector was insisting there was very little leakage in the train
and that the leakage problem must be the engines. The Machinist checked the
engines and they indicated no leakage at all. The maximum allowed on a
locomotive or locomotive consist is 3 psi per minute. So the Machinist and
Car Inspector were arguing about the culprit of the leakage problem. The
Machinist asked me if I believed the engines could be the problem as the
Carman believed and I told him no, it has to be in the train.
The Carman was not too pleased about this and told me there were only two
cars that remotely seemed to be leaking. I tried to explain to him that in
really cold weather, those types of leaks can easily be worse than they
sound. Apparently this guy didn't subscribe to the belief of cold weather
and compressed air not mixing very well. He got a little upset and told me
that he would just bad order those two cars for air problems and then has
us kick them out of the train. Hmm, guess he showed me, huh?
So Conductor JJ Niemann bundled up and headed out to toss these two
offending cars from the train. Once the task was completed and we had
sufficient brake pipe pressure, we began our air test. Upon performing the
leakage test with the two "slightly leaking" cars now gone from the train,
our leakage dropped to just 3.5 psi per minute of leakage. With this
problem resolved, we were able to complete a proper brake test and finally
depart Glenn Yard. However, we departed at 2155 hours, a tad tardy based on
the schedule for the train. But it could always be worse. As we departed I
made the comment that I had a bad feeling about tonight's trip.
Just remember my wise old saying, "No situation is ever so bad that it
cannot get worse." These words of wisdom (and experience) will become the
theme for the evening.
So now we're finally off to Markham for work there and then on to
Champaign. Tonight we have the CN 5751 (a nice quiet WhisperCab locomotive)
and the IC 2455 with 38 loads, 25 empties, 5289 tons and 3356 feet of
train.
After wending our way across the terminal some 32 rail miles, we arrive at
Markham at 2355 hours. As we approach the Homewood control point at the
south end of Markham, the General Yardmaster instructs us to pull the
entire train across the plant at Homewood. He further instructs us to use 7
Lead when we get the signal, shoving our entire train back into the yard
and right onto our pick up, which is located on track 13 in F Yard. Aside
from the fact that JJ has to ride this cut of cars into the yard, nearly
three-quarters of a mile in the refreshingly brisk weather, this plan might
not be too bad. This could have us in and out of the yard in an hour or a
little less. Could have, but didn't.
"Coulda, shoulda, woulda."
As we are shoving the train down 7 Lead towards F Yard, the Markham General
comes on the radio and informs us that we are also supposed to pick up some
engines. So now instead of coupling onto our pick up, we need to shove our
entire inbound train onto track 16F (which is clear), cut off, then work
our way over to the A Yard side and the Woodcrest lead and get four more
engines to take with us. While not exactly a difficult move it can be time
consuming.
We couple on to the IC 6122, IC 1021, IC 3120 and CN 9523. I make up all
the multiple unit connections, give them all a quick look over and we then
head back over to F Yard to commence with the pick up. Before beginning to
make our moves in F Yard we perform the locomotive brake test. Anytime you
add locomotives to your engine consist, you are required to perform a
locomotive brake test. This too is Federal law and also a company air brake
rule. Being that the Woodcrest lead is on the side of a short steep grade,
I do not perform the locomotive brake there as everything will roll
backwards down the hill. Instead, I perform the test after we couple back
onto the train where it will stay in one place.
I had some problems with the brakes on the IC 1021 as they would not
release properly and had to check it out. This is one of the reasons you
perform a locomotive brake test, to assure there will not be problems.
Should there be any, you can take care of them right away instead of
discovering them down the road and perhaps after you have caused some
damage. A few nights earlier I had a similar problem that I could not
correct and the boys from Woodcrest had to come out and attempt to make
repairs. As it worked out this time though, I was able to get the problem
resolved without the assistance of Woodcrest and we finished up the test.
Another factor I have to take into consideration is having all of these
locomotives on line and working. I was going to have a manageable sized
train and would not require this much horsepower. Also, there comes into
play the total number of powered axles. Too many powered axles can create
excessive draft force, also referred to as drawbar pull. Too much draft
force can literally snap a coupler knuckle in two, or even break a drawbar.
In milder weather you can just isolate or even shut down any of the
excessive power. However being that it was very cold and getting colder,
simply isolating or shutting down the excessive power was not an option.
The 1021 is an SD70 equipped with a microprocessor. I can isolate this unit
and should the engine temperature drop to a point that it too low, the
computer will automatically rev up the prime mover (diesel engine) to keep
everything warm and prevent freezing. So the 1021 got isolated. The 6122 is
an SD40-2, originally part of the Burlington Northern fleet. BN ordered
these units with a winter isolation feature. When set to "Winter Isolate"
the prime mover automatically revs up to throttle setting Run 3. This
prevents the prime mover from freezing up during bitter cold weather. The
6122 was also isolated leaving us with four working units and sufficient
horsepower that would easily allow us to make normal speed.
With the locomotive air test completed, JJ cuts the air into train and we
begin the task of doubling up our train. Being that we were originally
instructed to couple our train directly onto the pick up, we go about doing
it that way. We pulled the cars we had originally shoved into track 16F out
and doubled them to the pick up on 13F. In doing so, the end of train
telemetry had to be removed from the tail end of our inbound train and then
hung on the tail end of track 13F. Based on the make up of the inbound
train, doubling 16F to 13F was also beneficial to me. For train handling
purposes it got a bunch of loads of rock off the very rear of the train and
into the middle instead. With everything doubled up and then after
completing out air test, JJ then had to wait on the paperwork for our
outbound train and also a ride to bring him up to the head end. He only
waited about half an hour.
We finally departed about 0245 and began our journey south to Champaign.
Things rolled along uneventful for a while. We were run through the siding
at Kankakee without stopping to get around the Kankakee Switcher. The
Switcher was working on the main track working at Nucor Steel. We headed on
up to Otto where, for some strange reason, we held the main track to meet
339. As we were coming to a stop at Otto, the Desk Two Dispatcher calls to
inquire about the engines we were supposed to set out at Kankakee. Set out
engines at Kankakee? Hmm, it would appear that "They" neglected to inform
us of this move. I informed Desk Two of receiving no instructions with
regards to an engine set out.
"Stand by" was the response. This is one of the things we do best. After
all, a stopped train is a safe train.
After several minutes passed, from across the ether came the instructions
from Desk Two informing us to set out the 9523 and 3120 at South Otto. I
suggested that she could zigzag us into Otto Siding and then run us into
the Otto Pass so that we could set the engines out at the south end of the
stone yard at Otto. No, that was not to be, too logical I guess. I was told
to contact Champaign Freight (the Clerk that handles all clerical duties
between Steunkel and Champaign) to see where they wanted the engines.
Let me fill you in on some background about Otto at this point. At one
time, after the double track was ripped out and this became a single track
railroad through here, there used to be a set of crossover switches that
allowed southward movements from the main track to the Otto Pass. This
crossover was deemed unnecessary and removed in the 90's. For a southward
train to access the north end of the stone yard at Otto or to access the
north or south legs of the Otto wye, you must either go down to South Otto
and back in, or zigzag across at Otto. This move requires that you pull
south of the signal at Otto, get lined into the Otto Siding and then
proceed north into the siding. Once clear of the signal, you would then be
lined to proceed from the Otto Siding into the Otto Pass.
south wye north wye
__pass________/_____\________siding_______
main
/________________________/___main____________\_______
South Otto (MP 61.6) Otto (MP 60.3) Gar Creek (MP 57.5)
This little diagram might help. From right to left would be southbound. A
northbound train can pull right into the siding and then back into the pass
or onto the north leg of the wye which is routine when setting out cars
here. A southbound setting out cars would have two options to accomplish
this move. One option is to enter the Otto/Gar Creek Siding at Gar Creek
which is about 2.8 miles north of here and then pull the set out into the
pass, cut off and come out the south end at South Otto, then back up the
main, through the turnout and back into Otto Siding back onto the train.
The other would be to take the train down the main track to South Otto,
make a cut and pull the set out south of South Otto and then shove it into
the pass. The method used depends upon traffic and any possible meets to be
affected at Otto.
And although not shown here, the stone yard is a small two track yard that
extends from just south of the south wye to about half the way to South
Otto off the pass. Also not shown is the B&P Main, an industrial line that
is the reason the stone yard and the pass are here in the first place.
So what we proposed was to zigzag us through Otto to get to the pass and
then set the two engines out into the stone yard. I talked to Champaign
Freight and he thought that sounded good to him, but it was not to be.
Instead we were instructed to make the set out at South Otto. So we did as
instructed figuring we would set the engines out onto stone yard two,
shoving them up to the north end to allow easier access for the crew that
would be getting them.
Here is where the fun begins.
Desk Two informs us that she cannot get the switch at South Otto to line,
so we are given instructions to hand operate it and line it for our
movement. Along with these instructions came the permission to pass the
stop signal at South Otto as well at being instructed to put the switch
back in motor when finished. So JJ heads out, does the proper hand
operation procedure and brings me back. When he attempts to place the
switch back in motor, the selector handle won't budge. He requests my
assistance and a hammer to "persuade" the lever.
The ball peen hammer; industry's most accurate precision adjustment tool.
Further examination showed the lever to be hung up on the latch the locks
it into place. I had to beat on the selector lever to get it to move back
from the latch enough so that it could be moved back to the "Motor"
position to give the Dispatcher control again. With that task accomplished,
we perform the engine set out. In the meantime, northbound trains 193 and
337 were coming and we would affect a meet with them both at South Otto
with our engines and Otto with the rest of our train, No problem, except
for the fact that now the switch at South Otto will not line for the main
track either. So 193 has to stop get permission to pass the signal at South
Otto, hand operate the switch for their move and restore it to motor. They
encountered the same troublesome selector lever that we did and after some
persuasion on their part, they got it back in motor.
Once they cleared, 337 came along and the switch actually worked for them.
Then it was our turn. Again, the switch will not respond and again, we were
given the instructions to hand operate it and again, the selector lever
needed persuasion to restore the switch back to motor. Now before we even
attempted this move, I requested that we be allowed to hand operate to not
only come out of the pass and back onto the main track, but also to make a
straight away movement from main to main northward before restoring the
switch to motor. In the face of the reality that this switch was obstinate
and not going to work properly I felt this idea to be the most logical.
Logical.
But alas, logic was not to prevail. We were instructed to line ourselves
onto the main, restore the switch to motor and pull south of the plant at
South Otto and Desk Two would line us up for the main to main move. She
seemed to believe that the switch would now work properly.
"I hear and obey."
After several minutes of waiting, we get yet another call with still more
instructions to hand operate the switch, this time for a main to main move
and permission to pass the stop signal. I must be psychic, pr perhaps
psychotic. I guess there was a plus side to hand operating this switch
three times and my having to beat on it an equal amount though. A
thirty-two ounce ball peen hammer swung say thirty times does provide a
pretty fair cardio-vascular workout.
With that task completed, we finally get back against our train and
eventually leave town at 0605. While I didn't write down the time we
arrived at Otto, I know we spent well over two hours there.
Time was now becoming a factor and we would not have enough sand left in
the hours of service glass to make Champaign. I informed Desk Two that with
no additional episodes we could make Rantoul. We did, barely and wound up
passing away quietly there. We then waited an hour for a ride to come and
get us. When the van showed up, the relief crew came with it. When all was
said and done, we tied up after some thirteen hours and thirty minutes on
duty.
As strange as it was, this trip was still was another good one; nothing got
wrecked, nobody got hurt and best of all, nobody got fired.
And so it goes.
Tuch
As a post script; several of you have contacted me about being reinstated
to the list after some bizarre software glitch tossed you off. You have
been returned to the direct mail list and I will also be sending out the
Hot Times rules to everybody again under a separate post. Again, if you do
not receive this or the rules post directly, contact me and we will get you
reinstated.
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2004 by JD Santucci
Today, old man winter rears his head.
Yes gang just in case you haven't noticed, it is wintertime in North
America. Now contrary to the belief of some railroad managers, this is not
the very first time winter has ever occurred. But from personal experiences
in my twenty-five plus years of railroading and stories recounted to me by
friends at other railroads, you would think this wintertime thing was
something all new, just invented. It seems that every winter there are some
railroad officials that have completely forgotten the fact that we had a
winter season last year. I don't know if college teaches them that they are
smarter than winter and knowledge beats brawn or what, but year and year
out some officials continue to attempt the same stunts that didn't work in
previous winters. I guess Educators seem to routinely ignore the force of
the railroad gods and their first cousin, old man winter.
We have had quite the cold snap here in the Great Lakes region of the U.S.
in the past week or so. Bitter cold ambient temperatures in the single
digits or below 0 Fahrenheit and even lower in some regions coupled with
strong winds have provided us with a wind chill index in the 15 to 25 below
0 range or even colder. We have also been blasted with a fair amount of
snow in between cold snaps along with some freezing rain. This brand of
weather makes wreaks havoc on the operating plan making railroading quite
the adventure, or perhaps, quite more the adventure than normal.
Our friends north of the border in Canada have fared no better. In fact,
they have received a real "heapin' helping" of winter. Temperatures in
places like Winnipeg, MB and Edmonton, AB have dropped to -40 degrees F and
colder. Baby, its cold outside!
As I have frequently mentioned in previous columns dealing with cold
weather, compressed air used to charge and operate the air brake system on
trains and bitter cold weather do not mix. Never have and very likely,
never will. Undaunted, some railroads will still attempt to operate long
trains in such weather. This attempted combination generally results in
tremendous delays to the operation.
One night this past week when the ambient temperature was about 3 degrees,
it was decided that we would stop at Markham and make a pick up of 25 cars.
We already had an 88 car train with less than desirable air. I told the
Yardmaster we had bad air (a term often used to describe a train with air
problems) as it was plus it was cold and slowly getting colder.
Nonetheless, the powers that be decided we would get more cars and that
everything would work out just fine. I don't care how much authority the
powers that be might assume they wield, they are still no match for the
railroad gods. And of course, we all know what happens when one assumes.
Now since we were going to make the pick up irregardless of our air
situation, logic should have dictated that we shove the entire inbound
train right in on top of our pick up. It was already worked and still
attached the yard air plant. It was fully charged with "good" air. A move
like this would give us a fighting chance. But logic is not always the rule
of the day. Instead, we cut off our train on number on main one north of
the control point at Homewood, worked out way across the plant with our
engines and back into the yard. We then made the pick up, pulled back out
across the plant and then shoved back against our train. Now we would have
to pump the air up on the 88 cars we had previously cut away from.
With the pick up completed, the air cut in and JJ in the clear, I began
pumping. To encourage the system to charge a little quicker, I revved up
the engines to run three. In the bitter cold weather, the air compressors
on both of locomotives were encountering a difficult time trying to
maintain main reservoir pressure. With lower main reservoir pressure, it
would be even more difficult to achieve sufficient brake pipe pressure on
the train. By revving up the engines, the air compressors would speed up
their rpm's as well. This would have the system pumping a bit harder in the
attempt to increase the volume of main reservoir air which, in turn, would
increase the volume of air being delivered into the brake pipe.
When it is extremely cold such as it was this night, all those little
pinhole leaks in the piping and the somewhat worn gaskets between some of
the glad hands on the ends of the air hoses suddenly become gigantic
liabilities. The piping and fittings tend to contract a bit in the bitter
cold exposing leaks that don't occur when the air temperature is somewhat
milder.
Air hoses also tend to become very stiff in such weather which may also
result in leaks as the connections between them at the glad hands is often
not as good. Plus, when the train is moving, stiff hoses tend to not flex
as well when the slack is adjusting in or out or when the train is
negotiating through curves and turnouts. Under these circumstances, hoses
tend to either partially or completely separate. When they partially
separate the air from the brake pipe will begin to rapidly causing the
brakes to apply and dragging the train to a stop. We recently experienced
this problem.
I was using the dynamic brakes to slow the train for a speed restriction.
In using the dynamic, you are slowing the train using the locomotives as
brakes. The slack of the entire train is bunched up against the
locomotives. So now we have the blend of bitter cold temperatures, stiff
air hoses and unaware to me, developing a significant air leak. Slowly the
air on the train began to drop causing the brakes to apply. I noticed the
brake pipe pressure on the tail end was beginning to drop according to the
readout from FRED and could hear the sound of air beginning to pump harder
through the automatic brake valve on my lead locomotive. The train came to
a nice smooth stop, but then the brakes would not release. An inspection of
the train revealed an air hose that had partially separated.
The hose was kinked upwards enough to allow brake pipe pressure to escape
from between the two glad hands. The very stiff hoses did not flex properly
when the slack in the train bunched up causing the hoses to push upwards
and actually begin to uncouple themselves. While they didn't completely
separate, there was enough of a gap at the glad hands to allow the
discharge of air in a leak too great for the pressure maintaining portion
of the automatic brake valve to overcome.
With a complete hose separation, the result will be an emergency
application of the brakes. Once the emergency application begins it cannot
be stopped. Oftentimes the occurrence of break in twos, also known as
undesired train separations tend to increase in bitter cold weather. Stiff
hoses that come apart causing an undesired emergency application (UDE) of
the train can result in a broken knuckle. The Engineer did nothing wrong,
but will have to defend his actions when filling out a break in two report
and again getting his or her "debriefing" from the company official
investigating the event. Again, some, but certainly not all officials don't
want to accept cold weather as a problem or a contributing factor for such
an occurrence.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch:
We continued to pump air in our train. A minimum of 75 psi is required on
the tail end to begin an air test. The 75 number is calculated based upon
the regulating valve setting on the locomotive. Like most other railroads,
CN operates with a 90 psi brake pipe. Federal rules require the brake pipe
pressure on the tail end of the train must within 15 psi of the regulating
valve setting of the locomotive before beginning an air test. Simple math
tells you that 90 - 15 = 75. Now should we be using an 80 psi brake pipe
instead, as was common with some railroads for many years that tail end
pressure would have to be 65 psi. After some forty minutes of pumping, we
had attained about 55 psi.
CSX devised what they feel is a method to get around the difficulties of
charging a brake pipe charged to the proper pressure in bitter cold
weather. At the initial terminal of a train, the regulating valve on the
lead locomotive is set to 80 psi before coupling to the train. Once that 65
psi number is achieved on the tail end of the train, the brake test could
be commenced. When the brake test is completed, the regulating valve is
then restored to 90 psi. Legal? Well yes, but not necessarily practical.
Sure, they get the train out of the yard, but then it is up to the Engineer
to try to make everything work properly and safely control the train.
With barely sufficient air in the brake pipe, you'll still get the train
slowed or stopped safely but it will just require the Engineer to have to
use more air to accomplish the task. And when it is cold like this, it
takes significantly longer to achieve a release of the brakes. This may
require having to bring the train to a complete stop anytime you are
required to use the air. If you try to continue rolling, the very slow and
uneven release of the train brakes may result in a break in two of the
train. And it goes without saying that it then takes quite awhile for the
brake pipe pressure to be restored.
Another problem that occurs with bitter cold weather is gelling of diesel
fuel. There is paraffin in diesel fuel. When the temperatures drop to
bitter cold numbers this paraffin may begin to gel. Even with the fuel
preheater on locomotives, the fuel may still begin to gel. As the fuel gels
it does not move very well through the piping of the fuel system. This will
cause the locomotive to begin to "starve" for fuel. The prime mover is
simply not getting enough fuel to each cylinder to allow for proper
operation. To combat this problem, some railroads will pour in several
quarts of alcohol to the fuel in the locomotive fuel tank.
Automatic brake valves on the locomotive may also freeze up. I haven't
heard of it happening in some time, but the freezing problem does occur.
When the brake valve does freeze, unless you can get the locomotive
department out there to correct the problem, you are essentially stuck with
operating from the second unit. Sometimes alcohol will be added to the
brake system, but this reminds me of that old adage, "The operation was a
success, but the patient died. The alcohol will and does attack the rubber
components within the automatic brake valve and eventually ruins them.
Our pumping of the air has now gone on for about one and a half hours. The
brake pipe pressure as indicated on FRED has not risen above 66 psi. Once
66 psi was reached, we seemed to plateau right there. I was now revving the
engines in run 5 in the attempt to get the air compressors to work a bit
harder and produce a little more volume. It wasn't helping though. JJ and I
began to discuss our plight. We agreed that it was not likely of ever
attaining the magic number of 75. I began trying to contact the Assistant
Super on the telephone to discuss our dilemma. The call went to voice mail.
Moments later he called us on the radio asking about the air situation. I
advised him that it was highly unlikely that we would see sufficient air. I
suggested that perhaps we should cut off the rear thirty cars from the
train, move the marker up or get a new one and then commence with an air
test. They had to take this idea "under advisement."
The intense cold also unleashes other problems. Aside from the freezing
automatic brake valves, sometimes other components of the brake system will
freeze. This is often the result of moisture accumulating within the brake
pipe and control valve. Valves within the control valve unit will freeze
causing them to stick allowing air to escape directly into the atmosphere
instead of pumping into the brake pipe. Such venting will prevent the
system from charging or working properly. Such an escape of air will result
in the brakes remaining applied even though the system is requesting a
release. The brakes on the car in question will remain applied or "stuck"
as it were. On a moving car the stuck brakes will cause sparks to come from
the area around the wheels. The brake shoes may also start to glow from
overheating if the problem remains unchecked. A sticking brake problem will
most likely result in brake shoe build up occurring on the wheels.
This past Friday evening when the temperatures dropped well below the 0
reading for the ambient temperature, we had just this problem. We met a
northbound at Onarga and they reported seeing sparks coming from a car.
While they didn't get a car number, they did tell us it was the 56th car
from the tail end. Being that we had 113 cars this evening, a little quick
math told me it was about 57 behind the engines. I slowed the train using
the laws of gravity and physics instead of the air brake system. JJ dropped
off and I pulled the train past him to find the offending car. As the train
rolled by him, JJ discovered several other cars with sticking brakes as
well. Anytime I used the air on this train, I used a lot to ensure we would
get a proper release. It didn't help though as we still had problems.
Moisture can also be responsible for causing emergency vent valves to stick
open after an emergency application of the brakes. The moisture freezes
behind the valve causing it stick open. It takes a few smacks with a tie
butt or something to break the ice sometimes, or if none of the quick fixes
work, the brakes on that car have to be cut out. We routinely encounter
problems with sticking emergency vent valves in the bitter cold weather.
In my days at the Wisconsin Central we frequently dealt with intensely cold
periods. I went to work one evening when the temperature was -25 degrees F.
While doubling up our train at Shops Yard in North Fond du Lac one of the
Car Inspectors decided to lend a hand to the Conductor. He disconnected the
yard air plant from the last track we were going to double to. In doing so,
the Car Inspector dumped the air on this track. After we coupled to the
track and cut the air in, it would not come up. All the valves closed up
just fine but there was just far too much train for the bitterly cold
weather.
We pumped for a couple of hours before the powers that be decided that it
was not going to happen. The decision was made, although begrudgingly, to
cut away from this track. You'd thought we were killing them or something
to listen to the whining and crying though. This Car Inspector was
chastised for his lending his "helping" hand though.
In the years prior to the use of distributed power, some roads like
Burlington Northern used air repeater cars to assist the pumping and
maintaining the brake pipe pressure in longer trains during colder weather.
I have no experience of any type with such equipment, so I am not familiar
with how these air repeater cars operated. Such equipment allowed for
longer trains to be operated even in bitter cold weather as there was more
than one source of air being applied to the brake pipe. Today though there
is distributed power (DP). DP involves the placement of one or more
locomotives at one or more locations within a train separate from the
locomotives on the head end. DP is operated remotely by the Engineer from
the lead locomotive. DP locomotives pump air into the brake pipe also
allowing for the operation of longer trains in bitter cold temperatures as
again, air is being introduced to the brake pipe from more than just the
head end of the train.
And now for the conclusion of our adventure:
The first suggestion for reducing the train came from the Markham General.
His idea, or more than likely somebody else's idea forwarded along by him
was for us to make a cut on the head twenty-two cars, work our way back
across the Homewood plant into the yard and set the rear twenty cars we cut
away from the train back out. We would hang onto the head two cars, both
loads of autos and take them back out to the train with us. I suggested
this idea would be suicide. Cutting away from the train again, going back
and forth across the plant to make the set out and then getting back to the
train, tying back on and then trying to pump the air up again from scratch
would certainly lead to our death right there. By the time we would get the
air up for the air test we would likely be out of time as the sands in the
hours of service glass would run out.
Instead of their plan, I suggested we pull the entire train across the
plant at Homewood, have the Utility man come out and stop us clear of the
Hines crossing south of the plant and then make a cut and move up the
marker. After a period of contemplation over the idea, it was decided to go
with my suggestion. Of course by the time we undertook this plan, our
remaining time was getting scarce.
We completed the move, finally managing to get enough air to begin an air
test and completed same. While we conducting the air test, the Assistant
Super and I discussed the idea of getting a new crew going to relieve us as
we would have nowhere near enough time to make Champaign. We were then
instructed to pull the train down to Stuenkel (University Park) where a new
crew would take over for us. I did manage to get the air up to 79 psi on
the tail end by the time we reached Stuenkel though, so I guess that was
good anyway.
We swapped out with the relief crew exchanged pleasantries and information
about the train and they departed. We got into our cab and rubber tired it
to Champaign. Old man winter created another hours of service casualty and
I'm certain the railroad gods were quite pleased with the efforts of their
cousin to undermine the good intentions of the rail industry.
If I had a laugh track available, it could be applied here.
And so it goes.
Tuch
A post script, I have been hearing from many of you that were dumped from
the list by the forces of evil and you have been reinstated. If you are
still getting this forwarded to you after having previously received it
directly, be sure to contact me. We thank you for your patience and your
continued support.
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2004 by JD Santucci
Mark
If Chechen rebels did this, it doesn't even matter. There are plenty of other groups who would line up to follow in their footsteps.
~w
Also it was probably Chechen rebels, who have access to more stuff then your local terrorists.
We've gone from Gunboat Diplomacy to Nuclear Diplomacy, to Tomahawk Diplomacy, and now have finally reached No Diplomacy. I almost want to say we deserve whatever they throw at us, you don't fight terrorists with conventional troops and weapons, we were supposed to have learned that in Vietnam.
If you read your history books, you'll find out that many people in that part of the world have hated Westerners, as well as any other outsiders for centuries. This is not a new thing - goes way back before even the 20th century.
You'll also find out from history as well as current events, that even when they are in a position of power, they display unacceptable levels of intolerance and injustice towards their people.
Over the past 500 years we've done a heck of a lot to raise the ire of the more radical members over there, and now we're finally feeling the brunt. And how do we respond? By bombing, killing, and generally attempting to piss more people off! We can't kill them all, we'd be bigger monsters than the NAZIs ever dreamed of. And as we're finding out ethnic ties over there are stronger than nationalistic ties. For example, most Americans probably could care less if Canada was flattened by the Soviets, say, even though we are probably 90% common with their demographics, but two towers get knocked down in NYC killing some 2973 people, and the whole country rallies around it, because those were innocent Americans. The opposite is likely true in Saudi Arabia, if some country blew up a tower there and killed 3000 Saudis, it'd be likely that the entire Islamic population the world over would be up in arms. For this reason, killing all 'offensive' islamic people (our friends in Iran, AlQueida, and etc) is out, if we had wiped out Iraq, it'd be likely that Syria, Iran or even Saudi Arabia or Pakistan would take their place, and by the time we'd finished 'securing' the world, we'd be butchers of a magnitude only glimpsed during the darkest days during Stalin's purges in the 1930s.
So we can't kill them all, but it must be recognized that most of the population in these countries is largely uneducated, and poor. If for a change we could provide these countries with food, economic aid, and treat their governments as equals on the international stage (as opposed to bandits [Syria and the late Iraq], paupers [Sudan, Afganistan], village idiots [Saudi Arabia, Kuwait], or pariahs [Iran]) perhaps we'd finally get somewhere. Of course this must all come free of religious and social strings, the US is far from having our society 'right' and we have little place to dictate to the rest of the world how they should live their lives. We might be stable, but a visit to the inner-city of any major US city will show that our society is still very divided and rather immature when it comes to racial integration. This chink in the US's supposed ideal society leaves us with very little of a position to go around telling others how to live.
Right now all the people who claim that the Arabs, the Palestinians, or whatever 'backward' group 'over there' just hate us because they hate our way of life sounds a lot like somebody who insults a guy, trys to steal his girl, then slaps him across the face and afterward wonders why they got in a fight.
But that's the reason they themselves give. Read Bin Laden's statements.
For example, most Americans probably could care less if Canada was flattened by the Soviets,...
Ok - don't know how you can say that - but I think you're wrong on this.
For this reason, killing all 'offensive' islamic people (our friends in Iran, AlQueida, and etc) is out...
I don't know where you got the idea that anyone is trying to kill all offensive Islamic people. I don't think thats the strategy we're taking, nor did I mention that as a strategy. So where did that come from?
...it must be recognized that most of the population in these countries is largely uneducated, and poor.
So are a lot of other countries around the world - but you don't see those people blowing themselves up to get their way. That fact proves that there are other factors influencing their actions besides poverty, etc..
If for a change we could provide these countries with food, economic aid, and treat their governments as equals on the international stage (as opposed to bandits [Syria and the late Iraq], paupers [Sudan, Afganistan], village idiots [Saudi Arabia, Kuwait], or pariahs [Iran]) perhaps we'd finally get somewhere.
#1 - Look at the rage and vitrol pouring out of Egypt. Read some of the things the imams preach over there. Look at the mobs of protests against the U.S., etc. Egypt is the #2 biggest recipient of U.S. foregin aid. It certainly doesn't seem like they're paying us back very nicely. Nor does it seem they're using this money effectivly from what I can see. So surely, it can't just be about money.
#2 - Are you saying you want to give the middle eastern governments equal say in world politics? Please no.
This chink in the US's supposed ideal society leaves us with very little of a position to go around telling others how to live.
I think you're all turned around here. We're not telling them how to live. We know that this culture of suicide bombing and terrorism stems from opression of ideas and free thinking, as well as poverty, etc like you mentioned above. This state of life is being imposed on these people by their own governments - not by us. In addition, you're acting as if the people in these places want to live under these conditions. Look at the Iraqis - finally getting a chance to set up their own democracy. They finally have freedoms they always dreamed of. Spreading these philosophies to the rest of the world is a huge and daunting task. But it is the only way to stop the terrorism in the long run.
Just my .99. :-)
Good one. Let me expand this and say that if we just stop selling GUNS AND BULLETS ALL OVER THE WORLD we would avoid major problems. Folks. If some other nation wants to sell weapons in the middle east to kill people, let them suffer the consequences.
Canada doesn't send beans to these folks in the middle east in terms of economic aid but the terrorists aren't running airplanes into their skyskrapers. We're down there folks right now killing people by the truckloads and it's all coming back to us. We probably killed enough people down there in the last two wars to fill up every major ball park to capacity with dead bodies. Enough already. Stop the KILLING!
Canada is not the richest and most powerful country in the world. If it was, then terrorists would be targeting them.
Enough already. Stop the KILLING!
The problem is that if we stop the killing first, they won't follow.
An eye for an eye levels the playing field.
And how are we supposed to provide food and economic aid to despots who exploit and kill their people? Do you seriously believe that if the US decided to support Iraq rather than invading it, that Saddam Hussein would have given even one cent of foreign aid to support his people? When the UN allowed Iraq to sell oil to pay for food and drugs, Saddam used the revenues to build a series of lavish palaces.
treat their governments as equals on the international stage
People like Saddam Hussein do not deserve to be treated like equals and the Iraqi government was simply Saddam Hussein's personal vehicle for pillage and plunder.
Our state of racial integration, while very imperfect and still frought with problems, is so far ahead of anything you find in Europe or Asia or North Africa that any attempt to compare them is laughable.
InSudan, for example, Arab families still take black Africans as slaves and buy/sell them in a marketplace.
The Russians have killed so many Chechens that now the horror is hitting home. The terrorists are taking a page from the PLO and will kill more in the future.
Our policy in the middle east has been a failure. We've sold hundreds of millions of dollars in guns and bullets to kill people and now it's coming back to us. The subways are the next target so you're basically looking at the future folks.
We can't stop it here. That's the problem. At the moment, we are trying to avoid this by killing tens of thousands of other people with guns and bullets. It's a mistake.
These people will only get MORE angry at us and eventually strike back. The Russians and finding out the hard way that killing all those Chechans (sp) does not pay in the long run.
Don't blame the victims.
The basic error of your thinking is that only the US or other major powers are aggressive and that the rest of the world is merely reactive--i.e., leave them alone and they'll leave us alone.
An associated error of thinking is that appeasing current enemies will satisfy them, that they will not be emboldened to NEW demands, and that other nations and groups with a grievance will not then be encouraged to press their own demands with violence.
There are a lot of people in the world with a chip on their shoulder who would do something about it if they thought they could...
Did anyone every find out why these folks attacked that station? Did anyone ever make an attempt to find out why 9/11 happened? Did the Japannese (sp) just drop bombs on Pearl Harbor by happenstance? Maybe if we find out the cause, we can possibly come to a solution or head off future problems.
I'm not saying what happened in Peal Harbor was correct. Does anyone here really know why did it? I've never seen a movie or documentary that shows why the Japanese attacked?
You're right. I don't believe they will leave us alone because we won't leave them alone. Whatever actions we are doing did not change so what makes you believe they will change? Did it ever occure to you there might be something we are doing wrong half way around the world to make this happen? There are always two sides to an argument and we never really found out what the other side thinks or cares? Did we?
Funny how none of these bad things happen to our neighbors in the north, Canada. We must be doing something to get those folks real angry. It seems like all our former friends at one time like Bin Laden and Sadamm have now become our enemies? Does anyone really believe the new guys in Iraq really like us and for how long?
That was part of the problem. Form what I udnerstand (correct me if I'm wrong) we established a blockade which caused a fuel crisis in the mother land.
I understand their colonial adventures were wrong like our were too! (did you forget?) I also believe our blockade was also wrong and lead to the attack. I'm sure if anyone knew that blockade would cause thouands to die, you can bet alternatives would have been found.
I feel this way about 9/11. What did we do to cause a dozen men to give up their lives and kill thousands of innocent people? What was the motive? For the most part, people are just speculating what Bin Laden was thinking but we really don't know. If we don't find the motive, it will happen again and again.
Fact is, I don't think we really want to know. I think the prevailing idea is to kill and destroy your way out of this problem. It's a mistake.
If anything, we try much harder to understand their mentality than they try at all to understand ours.
That it is.
I am not sure about the blockade thing myself, but I do know that a blockade of Cuba in 1962 almost started World War III. (Well, the Soviets started the whole thing by using Castro's communism as an excuse to position nucular weapons within earshot of Florida. Or was it the USA and Turkey? Anyway, this grandstanding could have ruined cities in both the US and Russia.)
So you would have preferred that the Soviet missiles remain in Cuba?
We did not blockade Japan. We embargoed steel--i.e., we refused to sell them steel, which was war material. Japan at the time was rampaging around Asia--have you ever heard of the Rape of Nanking? (1937). WOuld you have had us continue to supply Japan with steel to help them murder innocent civilians?
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to make asinine posts to BBs.
By extension, were we wrong to come into World War I on the side of the allies, or attack Hitler because we were bad in the Philippines. Or more to the point, American companies such as Ford had a presence in Germany and took Hitler's order to produce war machines there--so we had no standing to attack Nazi Germany?
Why or why not?
By extension (I don't know you're saying this, but I lot of people have) we "deserved" Pearl Harbor, we "deserved" 9/11, and so on.
So to quote the immortal* Ricky Nelson, "You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself."
---------------
* "Immortal" has come to mean "he's dead" which seems like a contradiction to me.
What an ignorant viewpoint. Weak, and unrealistic. Guys with that attitude should just emigrate outta here. But you know that ain't happening. They would rather pontificate on the evils of the very society that ALLOWS them to pontificate in such a fashion, AND do so while basking in the freedoms and benefits of this country. Too damn cowardly to actually go to those places and start mouthing off.
Makes we wonder: if they ever did go to some of those countries, and were tortured and jailed, would we hear them defending that treatment? "Oh, well, sure, I deserved to get hot rods shoved up my anus, and have my fingers, and other appendendages chopped off, and have my sister, wife and mother raped and killed. After all, look what my evil country, the U.S.A. has done sometimes. Yes, torture me, I deserve it."
Having already sold them - allegedly - the scrap steel from the demolition of the Second (or was it Sixth?) Avenue El.
(wayne)
On-topic I would add, the Paris Metro suffered a whole series of terrorist bombings. So could it happen here? Having attended (as an accidental observer) a Palestinian anti-Israeli demonstration at 14th St and 6th Avenue last spring, I'd say it could absolutely happen here.
You can believe whatever whatever you want, but that doesn't make it true.
Remember ALMOST all of the deadly attacks such as mail bombs and car bombs plus the Antrax attacks have been linked to DOMESTIC terrorist(s), not foreign.
Someone mentioned an anti israeli protest, so what? Does't mean they are going to go around and start killing people. It was a protest, this is america.
You can do two things, worry the rest of your lifes of what might happen or just go out as normal.
That was me. I mentioned a Palestinian demostration in the heart of Manhattan. Yeah I know all about "This is America", 1st Amendment and Right To Assemble, etc. And I'm all for it. My point was this. In Palestinian communities in the Middle East, there were impromptu celebrations -- honking of horns, people dancing in the street -- when news of the World Trade Center attack reached them.
Point being, they're here and they don't play by our rules. Expect anything.
Actually, there were just a couple of small celebrations in the Palestinian camps on 9/11. Palestinian Authority police broke up the celebrations and (allegedly) threatened some photographers who had taken pictures of them. While it wouldn't be accurate to say that most Palestinians were broken up with sorrow over the attacks, very few of them found it a happy occasion.
"Television pictures may not necessarily distort meaning, but they can be deeply misleading. The fault doesn't lie in the pictures, but in the assumptions the audience makes when seeing them. To take a simple example, on the afternoon of 11 September 2001 an agency camerman was out in the West Bank when the news came through of the attacks on New York and Washington. Quickly a small group of Palestinians gathered in the street. There were, perhaps, eight of them. They started to dance and cheer at the news that America had been the target of a terrorist attack, and a particularly stupid-looking woman with oversized specatacles played up for the camera.
The great majority of Palestinians I knew were stunned by the news of the attack, and realised immediately that it would do their cause nothing but harm. Many, especially those who saw the television pictures, were genuinely upset by what had happened; and even those who felt, privately, that the Americans had it coming to them kept silent about it, realizing this was no time to air such opinions openly.
But the pictures of the eight or so Palestinians rejoicing went around the world."
I read an article in the New Yorker, by an American writer based in China, at how stunned he was to see how little sympathy most of his Chinese friends had for the USA immediately following 9/11. And these were professional people for the most part. Teachers, engineers, lawyers. Their attitude was amazing. Many blamed the whole thing on Arnold Schwarzenegger and Clint Eastwood movies. That Hollywood glamorizes violence. That anyway, the USA kinda deserved it. "They try to tell everybody what to do." 'They have so much, blah-blah-blah." And WTC 9/11 "Action Videos" are sold in all the stores. "See the Towers Crumble! See The Bodies Falling! America's Worst Day!" He asked people, can you watch that without feeling something? They said, "Oh sure, it's just like a movie."
Folks it is one helluva of a tough, cold-hearted world out there! I can tell from reading the posts -- and from friends I have -- that a lotta people just don't wanna believe this. In fact, that's said to be a typically American trait. "They so smug and fat they wanna believe everybody love them!" Hey I wanna believe it too.
http://www.stern.de/
--Mark
CG
Just a few weeks after new signs were installed at Atlantic Ave on the Brighton line side, the "PRAY" guy hit one overhead sign leading to the LIRR middle platform.
If you're sworn to secrecy by the MTA, then we all understand.
I have no idea what they're for.
To avoid controversy, I'm not going to state here exactly what
is being the panel or why the crew might want to access it, except
to say generically that they would need to do so in order to get
a disabled train moving under certain failure modes.
Also, are there track maps for the area where the PATH and NJT use the same ROW? (jersey city to newark?)
DOCK/HUDSON
HACK/GRAPE
KARNY/GRAPE
The previous 3 are between Exchange Place and Newark
WALDO This one covers the area around the Exchange Place station.
You can get more info about the first 3 here, and the fourth here. In each case, scroll down until you find it.
Sorts out the exact routes of the Atlantic and Montauk branches, for example, which was always a bit confusing.
This post alone justifies the cost of a SubTalk subscription.
P.S i got that from a injury list in the MNRR SMO one night while i was at work. it said
CONDUCTOR ABOARD TRAIN #1523 OPENS BARREL DOOR AND STRIKES LEFT FOOT, INJURING BIG TOE.
METRO NORTH M-3 8000
CROTON-HARMON YONKERS 1ST STOP
Peace,
ANDEE
And, by the way, LEARN TO TYPE AND SPELL IN ENGLISH, floor scrubber.
Peace,
ANDEE
first of all, my full name is Paul Anthony Roach. I work for the MTA Metro North Railroad. my Official title is Custodian/Machine Operator. My assignments can vary from a mopping assignment(Rare because i have senority) or Garbage, Recycling(NEWSPAPER ONLY BINS), or running the floor scrubber cleaning grand central on fridays and saturdays or whenever asked to. I dont understand why u have a problem with me or my position, because i do it and i do it VERY well. I am 21 years old, I work on my job well, and i take care of my girlfriend. I also took the Train Operator Exam and intending to take the Assistant Conductor exam with Metro North as well. If I offended you in anyway, im sorry. I do not have any issues. I dont know what i did to make u respond to me in that way daily, but i apologize. If u can't accept that, oh well. I am 21 years old, a legal adult with many friends, so if u cant accept that, i wont keel over and die.
I Bid you Good day
Old deals may be reconsidered.
Silver Line third phase funding derailed.
What is this?
Most of what you mentioned was hardly an improvement. Broadway north of 96th should have 1 express & 1 local.
And another very significant improvement was lengthening of local station platforms to handle ten cars. Prior to 1959 local stops between 50th and 96th could only handle five cars. Imagine that now - #1 trains with 5 car consists!
I was quite shocked by the insane crowds debarking from the 3 train at 145th St the one time I got off there. The #3 didn't seem to be late or anything...but the crowd was HUGE, all pushing through one exit. The old HXT makes a VERY loud creaking and whooshing sound, so much so that at first it sounded like construction work on the street above.
(Sort of reminds me of the BMT Multis on the 14th St line which could make all the stops between Myrtle and Lorimer and keep up with the Standards which skipped them all.)
-- Ed Sachs
-- Ed Sachs
Locals south of 96th are currently crush loaded at 20 tph. Any expresses from upper Broadway would have to be in addition to that 20 tph. But the only north terminal in current use is pretty much maxxed out, and the line north of 137th is already vastly overserved with 20 tph, so running more trains is impractical.
Also, what would their south terminal be? If Brooklyn, the West Side express tracks have their capacity constrained by 5 trains crossing at Rogers junction; sending some 1's to Brooklyn would require diverting some more 5 trains to New Lots or Utica. If South Ferry, you're introducing yet another conflict point, and the proposed South Ferry terminal will only be able to handle 24 tph.
Doubling train lengths on the local was a major improvement. Unkinking 96th was another major improvement. Looks good to me. Life doesn't revolve around one-seat express rides.
But I always wondered WHY, after 1918 that some piece of "midtown Manhattan" would be a terminus when there's SO many other places for that line to have been extended to GO to ... 3rd Avenue, Webster Avenue in the Bronx as just ONE suggestion. But yes, it's as useful a terminal as 125th Street on the Second Avenue ditch. BOTH need to be extended to "somewhere" ...
Before the service change, going north in the morning rush (from Brooklyn to City College), we waited what seemed like ages to get into 96th. Leaving 96th, you could see the s/b trains lined up alternate local and express (just count the cars to know which) from 96th to way beyond 103rd every day.
Shalom. Andy.
What SHOULD happen is that every 3rd train turna around at 137 or dykman, then the rest make ALL stops to 242
Unlikely that will happen.
From 103 to 137 Streets, the 1 line has 3 tracks.
From 137 to 200 (Dycknab) Streets it's 2 tracks.
From 200 (Dyckman) to 242/VC it's 3 tracks.
The February 22nd reopening of the Manhattan Bridge will reopen old territory for the R1/9 cars
and on the weekend of February 28/29 they will return to this old haunt.
Join Subdivision "C" of New York City Transit kicks off the 2004 March of Dimes campaign
with the first run of the R1/4/7a set over the Mahattan Bridge in many years.
Saturday, February 28, 2004
Starting at the 59th Street/Columbus Circle [A-C-D line(s)] middle platform at 10:30 AM, the R1/4/7a set will visit the Concourse, Brighton and West End Lines, as well as 95th Street, Hudson Terminal and the Manhattan Bridge. Lunch will be at Brighton Beach. If time permits, they will also visit the Concourse Yard. Express runs, photo stops and runbys will be done as time and opportunity permit.
Sunday, February 29, 2004
Once again starting at 59th Street/Columbus Circle [A-C-D line(s)] middle platform at 10:30 AM, the R1/4/7a set will visit Washington Heights, the Manhattan Bridge, the Broadway BMT, Franklin Shuttle, Brighton and Culver lines. Extra treats will be the Coney Island and 207th Street Yards and Brighton Beach will once again be the lunch stop. Express runs, photo stops and runbys will be done where possible
Fares for each trip are $40 for adults and $20 for children under 13 years. No advance reservation is required.
You may pay with cash, check or money order payable to the March of Dimes. If you need additional information, call 1-347-643-5310.
8>) ~ Sparky
Next stop on the MOD Train, Prospect Park. Please stand clear of the hissing doors.
It mentions no advance payment. Just show up with $40.
til next time
--Mark
It would be better if you could view more than just the top 10 subtalkers, and those who didn't make the top 10 from last time, but nonetheless, it's pretty neat. Nice job Pig.
Umm, I can't access the 20003 overall year report.
Of course you were unable to access the report because you have to wait 17,999 more years for it.
I just signed up to the Yahoo group. Seems as if it hasn't caught on yet. There's only 4 members.
I was surprised to see that I made the monthly top 10 twice..... albeit in 2001....
It's really cool. I'm surprised more subtalkers don't use it.
www.boarshevik.com/streports
Correct link
If anything, I'm surprised he has a 'search' feature via Google. I emailed Google about having such a feature on my website, but they asked they provide no such feature. What gives?
Yes I have.
In any case, I wish you luck. I sometimes wonder why you don't try putting up a site of your own? You'd do a good job.
I also want a CGI script to call up the STRs instead of having that long list.
You can.
Notice the tabs labeled "Table" and "Summary" at the bottom? Click table.
Zimmerman flew, Tyler Knew!
Preventing every scrawl or tag is impossible. Promptly cleaning it off is what NYCT did to end the grafitti menace, and still does today.
David
2003- the lights go out in New York City
2002- Bell bottoms re-appear
2001- The PCCs run the streets of San Francisco
2003- Lt. Hondo rides again!
2003- The R-1/9s are running to Rockaway Park again!
Need I say more?
2002- Original Star Wars movies are STILL being released...Ewoks are still annoying.
Starsky & Hutch
Actually, we're heading away from the fiscal crisis now, a crisis jump-started by the destruction of the WTC. In 1970's the WTC was just built!
Looks like it ISN'T the 70's all over again.
The skyline has changed much since then. There was more to our skyline than just the twin towers.
The twin towers were standouts in the skyline, but there have been other changes as well since 1970.
I really knew it was the 70's when I saw the headline: Bush to City: "Drop Dead"
I've seen graffiti, but it's always 'small' stuff like a black or blue scribble on the interior somewhere. In any case, the MTA eventually takes care of it.
8>) ~ Sparky
I'm already seeing more of those police booths.
Do what I do: don't even think about it. The first day of work for me after 9/11/01 I was looking through my cab window wondering if any of them had a bomb. Then I realized if I kept that up, I'd become a nervous wreck like so many people have become since 9/11/01.
Again I restate: no matter what is done, someone WILL find a way.
I ask you: What have you done to make your train safer for you to work and for your passengers?
-J/M/Z: "Manhattan-bound trains skip Marcy Av. All times, 5AM Mon, Feb 2 to Jun 2004. For service from March Av, take a Queens-bound J M or Z to Hewes St or Myrtle Av and transfer to the Manhattan-bound J M or Z."
-L: "No trains between Broadway Junction and 8 Av. Weekend, 12:01 AM Sat to 5 AM Mon, Feb 7-9. A shuttle bus also runs between the Bedford Av L and Marcy Av J M stations."
Now, WHAT good is running a shuttle bus to Marcy Avenue if people- most of whom are probably trying to get into Manhattan- have to go the other way first? Even with the M running into Manhattan, weekend headways are not the best. Wouldn't it make more sense to run a shuttle bus to Hewes instead?
Thanks to my working close to 370 Jay Street, I brought this issue to the Customer Service desk at lunchtime. Despite arming myself with maps and prints from the website stating the above quotes, they brushed me off as another irate Williamsburgian or a just plain crazed railfan. I resent those implications! I'm merely the latter.
These continued weekend shutdowns on the L may be necessary for a progress standpoint, all the recent protests notwithstanding. I can't wait to see how people react when they see they not only have to take a shuttle bus, but that the alternative offered requires even more backtracking.
Once again, great coordination of weekend GOs.
Besides, I didn't see Marcy on the advisory posters, they say Hewes is where the shittle bus runs.
GREAT, now this place will be crawling with incoming CABS dumping the invaders here and the local outgoing Town Cars will be impossible to get.
I think I'll stay home and work on my models. FEH! At least I'll be able to get a seat at my favorite pub.
The bus is running to Hewes St since Marcy Av is closed going into Manhattan.
These continued weekend shutdowns on the L may be necessary for a progress standpoint, all the recent protests notwithstanding. I can't wait to see how people react when they see they not only have to take a shuttle bus, but that the alternative offered requires even more backtracking.
Actually on the L shuttle bus, people have to get off the bus TWICE, that's right twice if they are heading into Manhattan b/c they decided to split the shuttle bus into 3 sections in Brooklyn.
Broadway Junction-Myrtle Av
Myrtle Av-Lorimer St
Lorimer St-Bedofrd Av, although I think it may go to Hewes St on the J
I say combine the first two 'branches' and make it two instead. At least people don't have to take the Manhattan portion on the M14, in which there would probably be extra service.
Taking the MTA's word.........I'll stay quiet on that one ;-). Seriously though they should make it B'way-Lorimer then Lorimer-Hewes.
Maybe some people trying to go to Manhattan enjoy riding shuttle bus after shuttle bus, but each shuttle bus connects with the M at one end, so nobody has to take more than one shuttle bus to reach Manhattan.
True. Also, some people actually chose to avoid riding the M altogether and take the 3 sections of the shuttle bus. Maybe they aren't familiar with the M.
Rolling Stock Proposals, including Redbird
The redbird proposal had been made by Harry Weese at a bad time: graffiti was likely already appearing in the NYC subway, and paint was already viewed as a wasteful item.
Mark
One of the reasons Weese proposed the bright red paint job on the rolling stock was to add some excitement to the riding experience as the train entered to monotone concrete color of the station. As I recall Zachary M. Schrag makes mention of the is in his online essay.
John
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Actually the unpainted surfaces of the car bodies are brushed aluminum. The aluminum under the painted band on the cars are raw extrusions with paint on it. Two reasons that I have heard for not painting the entire car was to reduce weight and the cost of maintenance.
John
Mark
London Underground trains stopped being red for precisely the same reason.
I hope Discovery considers releasing via DVD...or else I'll be forced to South Ferry's blackmail. :)
Laaate... that offer is OOS.
(wtf were you waiting for this long?) :P
My living room is ancient in its entertainment equipment:
I have a 12 year old VHS machine and an 11 year old 17 inch color TV. I don't even have a stereo - just a stereo boombox with CD and tape-player.
I watch and wait...next year's models keep getting better. Did you see the latest in super-miniature component stereo from Bose?
I'll be forced to buy sooner or later. For example, my TV isn't digital - and eventually I won't be abl to receive programs on it.
It's the same with CD's and their so called MiniDiscs, though their still around.
I have a VCR as well, but I hardly use it. I'm more concerned on finding a way to somehow convert content on VHS to DVD, without compromising quality (if possible).
Too late. The quality has already been compromised by being on VHS to begin with.
IAWTP. Even though I still have a VCR I think that VCR's suck. As VHS tapes get older, they get distorted and they lose sound. Releasing New York Underground on DVD can give us true sound and we won't have to constantly re-tape the same tape. With DVD you don't have to constantly replce unless the disc has deep scraches that won't come off.
One day everything will either be on a CD or DVD like device, or will all be on "flash memory."
It isn't shown at random; next showings are February 22, 10:00 P.M., and February 23, 1:00, 6:00, 9:00 A.M., 2:00, 5:00 P.M.
Damn... is it "blackmail" if just about every1 was satisfied?
lol
Them editors got much much mad material on us in the Avid rooms brah.
In any case, your current handle is fine. I don't mind, David.
Enjoy!
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?selected=597830
btw click on the photo for caption
Thnx
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?selected=597830
Existing AT&T Wireless customers can enter their user names and passwords to access the service, while those who are not AT&T Wireless customers will need a credit card to pay a fee of $9.99 for unlimited access from a single location for a 24-hour period of time.
1. The NYC Thru Streets program only operates Mon-Fri.
2. Left out the W stopping at 34th & 6th.
3. Says Grand Central Station instead of Geand Central Terminal.
4. MTA website address is now www.mta.info.
5. Map shows "I" train stopping at 34th & 6th.
6. Amtrak spelled Amtrack on map.
7. Bus directions say to use M10 from downtown. M10 south of Penn was replaced by M20 some time ago.
8. Directions from JFK say MSG is between 30th and 33rd, instead of 31st and 33rd.
9. Directions from LAG say MSG is between 30th and 34th.
10. Directions from Newark should say use NJ Turnpike to exit 16E, not exit 16.
11. Left out V at 34th.
12. Says PATH stops at 34th, instead of 33rd.
A tad drastic, don't you think? I'm glad I don't work for you!!
I agree with this comment. Nuff said.
Long Island Expressway
Midtown Tunnel
What it says now, I don't know - haven't been that way in years.
The only error I saw was there are several more staircases from the subway at the 34 Street stations.
I'll wait until Jarid gives us his answer.
Guess I got it all now I have mre fun stuff with yesterday's am-y paper. New Thread coming up.
Either way, this will provida a motherload if information in case an similar event occurs here.
tim
All I've seen was a change to the "Mott Av Far Rockaway" destination. It now reads as "Far Rockaway via JFK Airport."
Was that the only destination changed on those signs, or was thr entire roll changed? Will the R-32s be getting these new south terminal rolls as well?
A'DURF.
Wanna be on my killfile?
Dec. 21, 1994: Edward Leary explodes homemade bomb that sent a fireball whooshing through a subway car, injuring himself and 47 others. The crude bomb went off while the subway train was parked in a station.
Aug. 6, 1927: Two bombs explode, one in the 28th St IRT (Lex Line) station and the 28th St (B'way) BMT station. "[The bombs] injured many persons, one of them it was believed, fatally." (NYT 8/6/1927)
I believe there have been a couple of others over the years as well in the 50's, but couldn't find them quickly ...
OTOH, the earlier bombing of the World Trade Center was treated almost as a simple criminal act. The terrorists were put on trial, an enormous amount of useful material about the protection of the WTC was studied by Al Queda watching in open court, and the NY jury that convincted the terrorists couldn't even manage the death penalty for any of them.
Yet Timothy McVeigh is long since executed; so who's forgetting what?
OldNew
Mott Av
Far RockawayFar Rockaway via JFK Airport
Rockaway Park, QueensRockaway Park via JFK Airport
Lefferts Blvd, QueensLefferts Blvd
Ozone Park
I've also seen
Brooklyn
Euclid Av
(centered)
inside:
Euclid Av
(huge letters)
This is in R38 #4077.
They are misleading and a stupid plugs for the Port Authority.
"via JFK Airport" should read "connection to JFK"
Howard Beach
via JFK Airport
David
Next stop, Beverley Road.
The IRT can't spell.
How do you pronounce it?
That's not too terrible. I overheard a cell-phone conversation on an LIRR train before arriving at Jamaica, in which a woman was asking to be picked up at Something Boulevard.
Mark
I agree. I hate the TA's overuse of that 3 lettered word.
I meant to write, over-misuse.
Oh, and one more thing before you click the link. TURN YOUR POP-UP BLOCKER ON!
Besides, the R-32/R-38 signs do not have readings for Avenue X and 86 St, Brooklyn. Those might be on those new signs.
"Besides basically everybody knows that Rockaway Park/Mott Avenue-bound A trains go to JFK Airport"
Tourists don't know that, but I imagine they'll still end up taking an A to Ozone Park.
Besides, the R-32/R-38 signs do not have readings for Avenue X and 86 St, Brooklyn. Those might be on those new signs.
Can't disagree with that. I was going to say in my mind that it would be dumb to add Avenue X and 86th Street-Gravesend to the signs but it can be there if the MTA wants to terminate trains at Aveune X and 86th Street-Gravesend after Sea Beach and Culver trains return to Stillwell incase if needed trackwork needs to be done south of those two stations in the future.
Tourists don't know that, but I imagine they'll still end up taking an A to Ozone Park.
Also I can't disagree with that comment. Ok then not EVERYBODY knows that all Rockaway Park/Mott Avenue bound A trains stop at JFK Airport. As I say to people who I knew in the past and now "Even if it's going to cost to change it, then change it"
When the R-32s were on the N, and were terminating at 86 St, they could only display "Kings Highway Brooklyn" as well.
Example:
179th Street, Queens
Avenue X, Brooklyn
(F) 6th Avenue-Culver Local
Queens Boulevard Express
Um... the route description would be either
Avenue of americas(6 av)Local
Queens Express
OR
Qns BLVD/6 AV/Culver
(F) Av of Americas (6 Av) Local
Queens Express
(F) Av of Americas (6 Av) Local
Queens Local
(F) Queens Blvd
6 Av/Culver
(F) Queens Blvd
6 Avenue
On post-R30 signage...this is how it goes.
(F) Queens Blvd
6 Av/Culver
(F) 6 Avenue
Culver
"BB|6th Ave. L'cl"
The photo I'm talking about is this:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?4981.
These signs specified "local" or "express" in their readings.
For example, the (E) was listed as:
Queens Boulevard Express
Eighth Avenue Local
F was probably this:
Queens Boulevard Express
Avenue of the Americas Local
I think Mr. Broadway Junction can back me up on this as well.
And ride R32 3558 one day, if you can. This car still has the old signs that I just described to you.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
3380 - A/C
3381 - A/C
3510 - A/C
3511 - A/C
3558 - E/F/R
36XX - E/F/R
3806 - ?
...
(A)8 Avenue
Local
...
<C>8 Avenue
Local
(D)Av of Americas
(6 Av) Express
(E) 8 Avenue Local
Queens Express
(F) Av of Americas (6 Av) Local
Queens Local
(F) Av of Americas (6 Av) Local
Queens Express
(G) Brooklyn-Queens
Crosstown Local
(H)Rockaway
Shuttle
(J)Nassau Street
Local
(K)8 Avenue
Local
(L)14 Street
Canarsie Local
(M)Nassau Street
Express*
(M)Nassau Street
Local*
...
<N>Broadway
Local
...
(Q)Broadway
Express
(R)Broadway
Local
...
* - might be in transposed order
And some W's at the beginning and end of the day will start and finish their runs (in service) on the Sea Beach, although I don't know if anyone will even try to sign them properly.
Here are the R68 South Terminal Rollsign readings (| indicates a line break):
Bedford-Nostrand Avs
Jay St-Boro Hall
Hoyt/Schermerhorn Sts
Brooklyn|Bergen St
Brooklyn|Smith/9 Sts
Brooklyn|Church Av
Brooklyn|18 Av/McDonald Av
Brooklyn|Kings Highway
Brooklyn|Avenue X
Brighton Beach
Coney Island
Lower Manhattan|Whitehall St
Manhattan|Canal St
Herald Square|34 St
Queensboro Plaza
Brooklyn|86 St
Bensonhurst|Bay Parkway
Brooklyn|New Utrecht Av
Brooklyn|9 Av
Brooklyn|36 St/4 Av
Brooklyn|59 St/4 Av
Bay Ridge|95 St
Prospect Park
W 8 St-Aquarium
Grand St
Lower East Side|2 Av/Houston St
Manhattan|Broadway-Lafayette St
Manhattan|W 4 St
World Trade Center
Penn Station|34 St/8 Av
Brooklyn|Euclid Av
Howard Beach|JFK Airport
Ozone Park|Lefferts Blvd
Far Rockaway|via JFK Airport
Rockaway Park|Beach 116 St
Shuttle
I am assuming that this list is the same on the R32/38's. The interior sign, in most cases, the bottom line on 2-line readings, except the following:
OutsideInsideFar Rockaway
via JFK AirportFar Rockaway/JFKHoward Beach
JFK AirportHoward Beach/JFKPenn Station
34 St/8 AvPenn Sta-34 St
(?)
I've actually seen the first two, I'm not sure about the third.
I also have photographic proof of these new rollsigns, and I have the first case of one of these rollsigns installed the wrong way (i.e. the reading that should face the interior faces the outside).
Here they are:
The reason why the "Euclid Av" is so low on this sign is because the sign is positioned so that the "Brooklyn" on the interior side remains hidden. If the sign were installed properly, the "Brooklyn" would appear above the "Euclid Av," like the picture above
These two pics were taken at Euclid Avenue station.
--&rew
Got two turntables & a microphone?
Seriously, the & is what the 7 would be if they changed the numbered lines to symbols (based on a standard US keyboard).
?
+
=
[]
{}
%
$
*
()
!
@
#
...eh, you get what I mean. :)
Ozone Park | Lefferts Blvd
R32s still have their old signs.
Seems kind of odd that they'd reverse the station and neighborhood names on the same sign (since when is Brooklyn a neighborhood?) In fact, it seems odd that the neighborhood name would EVER come before the station name.
Yes.
[Would the interior say just Euclid Av, or Euclid Av/Brooklyn?]
Euclid Av.
[Seems kind of odd that they'd reverse the station and neighborhood names on the same sign (since when is Brooklyn a neighborhood?) In fact, it seems odd that the neighborhood name would EVER come before the station name.]
It happened with the IRT R142 cars:
Eastchester-Dyre Avenue (5)
Wakefield-241 St (2)
Parkchester-E 177 St (6)
Crown Heights-Utica Av (4)
Brooklyn College-Flatbush Avenue (2)(5)
Times Square-42 St
Grand Central-42 St
And the R68 cars, which have too many to list.
71/CONTINENTAL ---> FOREST HILLS | 71 AV (just one example)
However, there are inversions on anything that includes "via JFK AIRPORT" (i.e. that gets displayed first instead of the actual destination, which is displayed afterwards), and it seems that top lines that contain the borough's name have been omitted, because I've seen these:
KINGS HWY
AVENUE X
SMITH-9 STS
Euclid can't get an actual neighborhood name, since East New York would be confused with the next express stop up the line.
I prefer the old style: station name on top, borough name on bottom, left-justified. Don't touch my R-62A's!
Ozone Park|Lefferts Blvd.
--Andrew
I bet they moved it off center so that they could paste on a future routing to the (P) if it's ever used.
Maybe the Z will also get a reading now.
Guess they want to open up the chances of adding new routes to it with these new signs.
"The New York Police Department (NYPD) said in a statement that the team's mission is to "observe and gather information on the Moscow subway bombing."
...
"The team of New York police will consist of officers from New York's intelligence division and transit bureau."
Very interesting stuff.
Hopefully, the fact that a transit bomb can kill "only" 20-40 people at a time will encourage Al Qaeda to look for richer targets.
Robert
There have been cases where a T/O had to stop short and the C/R had a board from a 6 or 4 car train in front of them and opened anyway so this might help somewhat.
Well believe me, it has been known to happen, especially on the "A" at Hoyt-Schemerhorn Sts-you know, on that abandoned platform. I was actually on a train when this happened. It was a northbound "A" train during the am rush hours in 1984, an R44 to be exact. The conductor opened the doors on the wrong side, and to my surprise, you should have seen the amount of people who got off-dark platform and all.
The conductor got on the PA and ordered everyone back on the train and to get off on the other side. Well, you always have to have at least one person who is totally clueless. The conductor told that woman 3x to get back on the train, with the passengers yelling at her also.
You know we had a good laugh when all of the sudden we heard the door chimes and the train pulled off leaving the woman on the platform.
How did she get off the platform, if the train left her?
I will keep you guys updated if I start seeing the on the R46's since this is what I work on the most out of Queens.
Robert
BTW: In Montana they had a lot of problems with those steering wheel mounted dip switches. People kept getting into wrecks when they tried to step on them.
: ) Elias
Thanks,
Chuck Greene
Sean@Temple
"One popular example [of sleeping on public transport] is the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority (VTA) bus route 22, dubbed 'Hotel 22', between Palo Alto, California and San Jose, California, (Silicon Valley). A pass for 24 hours costs 4 dollars and one for a month 45 dollars, much less than a hotel, house or apartment."
Anybody know about this run? How long it takes? Salaam? Fred?
map
page
I don't get it.
Good luck to everybody, and I don't want to hear anyone score below a 80.
Bye now, gotta go to the exam
My brother-in-law has been made a project manager for the new PATH station at WTC. I am very happy for him. Her is a excerpt from the E-mail he sent me.
"
My project has now been made public.
I am project manager for the structural design of the PATH terminal at the World Trade Center with Santiago Calatrava. "
I hope you will join me in wishing him nothing but the best.
Peace,
ANDEE
I will email you later on, sorry I didn't get back to you. You know I always be busy.
I know, it seems to be pre-destined. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
The only reason I said that was because, I Am Losing a perfect commute, one end of the line to the other, train ALWAYS waiting and ALWAYS getting a seat. The Manhattan Bridge falling into the sea willonly perpetuate that and IS ONLY a joke (and wishful thinking).
As far as me being out of town, believe me, I need it and offer No apologizes.
Peace,
ANDEE
--Mark
And Unca Fred ... if the D train can't go over the bridge, that means the Sea Bits can. Play along, will ya? (grin)
By the way, does he know of any architects involved on the project that are hiring? :-)
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
May it turn out to be as smooth a job as the Concourse IND!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, "Mr. Green-Green" isn't such a bad nickname afrer all.:)
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
--Mark
Moreover, why are there STILL old signals lying around covered in tape and plastic? Shouldn't they have been removed by now?
This is what I really wanted to show though
Look how much more that train carried than by bus. I wonder what the numbers would've been if they hadn't shut the system down all those times. Is that why the bus is higher than the train figures on Saturday?
Wow, I wonder what Edd Handley would say about that.
David
It's C/R people! Get it right! =p
BTW, did any of you hear anything about the TA freezing the title? Because rumors are flying all over the place
I was looking at the C/R assignment sheets the other day... holy crap they have a lot of extra people sitting on the board. Wouldn't surprise me if they did hold off calling from the list for a while.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Regards,
Jimmy
So which one was it?
Also, What was on it?
If you can read, you'll do fine.
Also, What was on it?
Sorry, but I'm not gonna risk getting in trouble by going into specifics.
BTW, aren't you a tad young to take a civil service exam?
Where do I begin..............its so hard that they send a guy around to turn away the people that look retarded so there will be high scores only
Also, What was on it?
Quantom fission, advance placement physics, the harmonica theory, the price of tea in china.......
Sheesh, I don't recall seeing that ;-).
That bell brought back some strange memories. I thought I was back in JHS again.
God, I hate busses.
I took it at Murry Bergtraum. The administration there was horrible! We started at 11!
Where did you test? I was at John Bowne, rm. 334. We started right on the dot of 10:30 too.
wayne
I was the first to finish, followed by piotr apprx 40 secs later
I took 43 minutes i think.
Baisley and Springfield don't intersect. Perhaps you meant Bedell Street or Brewer Blvd.?
Oh yes - the test: I finished up at 1132.
wayne
Well Mapquest says that from Springfield Gardens HS:
To Jamaica Center station(E,J) it is 4.16 Miles.
To 169th Street Station (F) it is 4.30 Miles
To Lefferts Blvd Station (A) it is 5.39 miles
To Main Street Station (7) it is 10.85 miles
However the test was held on a Saturday and it is a couple of blocks from the LIRR Laurelton station. $2.50 City ticket
I took the test at Washington Irving, and we also started until 11am. If that's bad enough I got there at 9am and didn't settle in the classroom until 10:30.
wayne
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
"Daddy? Please come. I have a solo!".
Jimmy
Koi
Can you then answer questions based on what you read?
If so, you do not need to study for a test like this. Personally, they should make it harder so morons are weeded out early.
This coming from someone who took the test in 1993 and still isn't a TA employee...
-Harry
Source
We should all be given extra credit for being a Subtalker. Some of the goofballs taking the test at Springfield Garderns don't know jack about the subway. One woman was arguing that the J stops on the lower level of Jay Street.
Whatever. I of course did not fill out the bottom of the answer sheet (nobody is compelled too).
Are you saying you wouldn't want your wife to enjoy the benefits of other minority women like herself when applying for a job
Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.
Another inequity: In the early nineties they changed the educational requirements for police officer to two years college. Fine, a good move. However, they also made sergeant 2 year college, lieutenant 3 years, and captain 4 years or a bachelor's degree. So, all of the sudden all the non college educated cops hired before the change suddenly couldn't make sergeant, even though there was no such requirement when they came on the job.
Then in 1998 they started adding 5 points for NYC residency. Now whatever your view on residency requirements are, (I think they stink) for a promotional exam it certainly is not fair to change the rules after one gets on the job.
I won't argue the "residency" requirements since I tend to agree with them, so long as they apply to ALL titles. I can see the point of municipalities wanting to keep their taxpayer "investment" inside the borders - most municipalities have SOME form of "live here or pay" penalty. And that is still in there for the NYCT tests as far as I could see ...
Civil Service was QUITE an education for me into "here's a hard and solid rule - whoops! Where'd that sucker go?" Not to mention how readily a political hack could pull a "non-competitive" for a son-in-law who was so out of it, Wal*Mart wouldn't hire'em. :)
But goal posts that move? Rocks that float? Helium mines on the moon? No surprise there, bro. (grin)
Then again, we've got an absentee governor - when he skulks into Smallbany every now and then (instead of RESIDING at the governor's mansion like ALL of his predecessors did) it's news. But if Paturkey is going to be an absentee governor, then I see unfairness to the residency requirements, no matter how they're implemented. But I *do* agree with the concept in general. I don't agree with it not being universal in "public service."
Then again, I can't fathom why folks go out for civil service anymore. Once upon a time, the lower paying public sector at LEAST guaranteed you a job - not anymore. And constantly being shat upon ... not only by the public but the anointed in office ... I'll never do it again, that's for sure ...
A comparison would be if at the Police Exam, a person would be a goofball if they didn't know the addresses of the precincts. (When I took the police test I didn't even know the difference between a revolver and an automatic)
By itself, it doesn't. But I stood behind her long enough to judge she was a "goofball". You have to trust me.
Besides, I assume she meant Jamaica Center.
No, she meant Jay Street, She said the A and F stop on the upper level, the J on the lower. I am not making this up.
And you know what? I've transferred between the "J" and the "E" a number of times (actually at Sutphin but the levels don't change) and to be honest with you, if one asked which level the J is on, I wouldn't be too sure.
That's not as an egregious error as the one this woman swore too.
One woman was arguing that the J stops on the lower level of Jay Street.
Oh my. Is there a hidden level we don't know about ;-D.
Washington Square Park is in which borough? or
Yankee Stadium is in the ________________ ?
Unfortunately, I couldn't take the test because with NYS's double dipping laws, if I took another city OR state job, I'd have to give up my lucrative annual police pension!!! That's why I'm taking postal exams!!
It was called The Subway Song by Professor Tom Lehrer (Harvard).
Sleepy Baby Sleep
In peace may you slumber
No danger lurks your sleep to encumber
We've got the missles, peace to determine
And one of the fingers on the button will be German.
Why shouldn't they have nuclear warheads
England says no but they all are soreheads
I say a bygone should be a bygone
Let's make peace the way we did
In Stanleyville and Saigon
Once all the Germans were warlike and mean
But that couldn't happen again
We taught them a lesson in 1918
And they've hardly bothered us since then
So sleep well my darling
The sandman may linger
We know our buddies
Won't give us the finger
Heil Hail the wermacht
I mean the bundeswehr
Hail to our loyal allies
MLF will scare Brezhnev
I hope he is half as scared as I
Ben F. Schumin :-)
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Here's hoping the "stockholders" get their justice come November. :)
CSX has hit the FRA top 10 for bad track several years in a row.
2001 Howard Street Tunnel fire in Baltimore - CSX.
Latest wreck in Northeast Maryland - CSX.
Yesterday, on the Baltimore Belt Line at about 1:30 PM, a hopper derailed near Huntington Avenue due to a broken axle.
Tune to CSX, where the Hits just keep on coming.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.csx-sucks.com/
They're our local sweatshop on steel wheels.
I didnt use flash, and I used 400 ISO.
The photos are mainly in riverhead with 1 yaphank and 1-2 medford.
Please tell me what you think!
Remember, its tri level, not 2.
_
-_- Bottom, the 2 sides is the middle level, and theres a top level.
I said bi-level beacsue customers sit either in the upper or lower level. I wonder if these are repainted LIRR cars from years ago? I used to see them when I was a kid taking the subway going over the Woodside Station. That was about 30-35 years ago.
But when I say tri-plex, its usually 2 levels the middle of the car, and a 3rd level on each side in between both levels with seats there as well. I dont know how it was on the old red steel cars but the newer ones are tri-plex's.
While taking pictures, I took 2 rail spikes home with me. :P
http://community.webshots.com/album/116782194jLWorc
When others post photos, they dont get ignored like this topic.
You provided a link, but it wasn't linked. There's a difference. You'd be surpised as to how many posters are lazy enough not to simply cut and paste a link, so proper linking is often a must.
When others post photos, they dont get ignored like this topic.
Even worse, they get crap replies like this thread.
As for your photos, the bi-level 'Redbirds' are pretty awesome. What model are they? I think you should've went for some M7 shots.
Historically, SubTalkers do not usually reply to posts about photos unless the photos depict something very controversial. I find it annoying, but that's how it is. I usually reply by thanking people for posting photos. That way they know I appreciate them posting the photos. Most other subtalkers do not say thank you, and even discourage the posting of such short messages as "thank you." I find that absurd. But since I see that my photos get hundreds of views after being posted here, I know SubTalkers ARE looking at them.
Anyhow, I didn't thank you for posting your photos because I'm temporarily not on a high-speed internet connection and I don't want to wait for the photos to download. When I get back to my cable modem, which will hopefully be in a few days, I will try to remember to come back and look at your photos.
It was NOT linked! As CPCTC said, many people are too lazy to cut/paste. If anything, its better that I did do so. No need to be rude.
How many times do I have to say I know what he was refering to, leave it at that.
I don't get what you're saying.
And can people please tell me what they think of my photos, this is getting rediculis.
I liked your pictures, particularly the bi-level 'Redbird'.
"How many times do I have to say I know what he was refering to, leave it at that.
I don't get what you're saying."
Thats refering to when I was telling the person I know what he was talking about, at first I didnt, then I understood it.
And I cant beleve how many people love the old LIRR alumanium "redbird" double deckers (or tri-plex) cars. They are cool, just wish they were in better shape. :/
I'm not a dunce ;-).
And yes I know people are lazy, even I am, but when it comes to link c/p'ing, geez, thats when it gets dumb if you cant do it.
Well that's just the way it is, that's just how some people are. They flat out refuse to copy/paste.
Thats refering to when I was telling the person I know what he was talking about, at first I didnt, then I understood it.
Thanks for the clarification.
And I cant beleve how many people love the old LIRR alumanium "redbird" double deckers (or tri-plex) cars. They are cool, just wish they were in better shape. :/
I agree with you on that.
I don't need to go through the effort (albeit small) of cutting and pasting for someone else's benefit. If someone wants to showcase their pictures, they shouldn't make their potential viewers go through hoops to do so.
And here is what the interior looked like:
As you can see there was only 1 level, the seats were double decked.
Photos from Bob Andersons http://lirrhistory.com site.
Unfortunatly I couldnt get any M7 shots since the one I saw went by Jamaica and saw only M1/M3's.
I wanted to take "panarama view photos" so thats why I took them the way they are. I would have taken more photos, but I used up all the space on my memory card.
There were more cars to take photos of, but due to icy path's I couldnt take snap shots of the rest, but I did manage to walk to the other cars(but the photos of the way I was standing to keep balance would have either been too close or just bad, so didnt bother.)
"There are 7 million stories in the naked city known as Subtalk.
You have just heard one."
In any case, I know construction was going on at the BMT Broadway platform, but what abut the Flushing? The most the TA did was like board up most of the ramps, paint some of the support structures and maybe reopen an exit somewhere. It's like near Red Lobster or something.
Why is this part of the thread called "IRT Rollsigns"?
I walked over to 6th Ave and caught an F train to 34th st. Better than to go up to 57/7 then go back down.
Or I could've used the shuttle to GC and caught a 4/5/6 to 14th st for the Q.
This Is What I Live For...
The second turnout you saw between East New York and Jamaica, but before the abandoned Woodhaven Station was the long disused connection to the Rockaway Beach line, now the NYCT (A) and (C) lines.
Bill "Newkirk"
I think the LIRR/BRT connection has been long erased. At least in the downtown Brooklyn area. Until about 25 years ago there was a rusty old structure coming out of the LIRR (Carlton) yard area ending just before Flatbush Ave. South of the LIRR station. As a kid I couldn't figure out what it was for. It wasn't until I found out out the BRT 5th Avenue El passing along Flatbush Avenue that I realised it was a connection that was discontinued in 1918 by order of the US Govt. Someone I believe posted pictures of it in here.
Yes, and I took pics of it before it was razed. Someday soon I'll start posting pics, not enough hours in a day for me.
That old "el" structure was for the elevated freight building above Flatbush Ave terminal. It think it had something to do with glass products or something. In the late 70's, I attended a tour of the old terminal before it would bite the dust. Upstairs was some long abandoned tracks with conveyor belts on the platforms. The underground yard beneath the terminal, adjacent to the Flatbush Ave platforms was for the meat packing industry.
Bill "Newkirk"
I think before the train comes out of the portal going into Nostrand Avenue there is a turnout that possibly went into the Brooklyn Armory. I might have that confused with the IRT turnout between Utica Ave and Sutter/Rutland.
I've seen on some older maps a track connection between the LIRR Atlantic Branch and the Bay Ridge Branchs in the East New York area. But the few times I've been over there, I haven't seen it myself.
Between East New York and the Brooklyn/Queens line there was a small yard alongside Atlantic Avenue. IIRC there is a school at the site now.
Alot of the connections and turnouts have disappeared from plain sight. The building of the underground tunnels along Atlantic Ave in the late 1930's have erased alot of them. Many of them exist now only on the older maps in the library.
This Is What I LIve For...
JOhn
check out this site there are several pictures taken around ENY prior to removing LIRR from the surface. there are two tracks turning under the canarsie line at atlantic av coming from bay ridge and joining the main line up the ramp to the elevated portion over Penn. ave. What a difference 65 years could make
I wonder if there are any traces remaining of the connection between the Bay Ridge and Atlantic Branches?
From the underpass on the East New York Station, I think there was a stairway that went downstairs to the platform on the Bay Ridge line. I got a glimse of something when I braved walking over there one day. But the LIRR police there wouldn't let me take a good look.
John
Do I smell a Subtalk walking tour (in spring) of the ramp with BMTman as tour guide ?
Bill "Newkirk"
john
I just found a pic of the ramp leaving the bay ridge line and surfacing up with the atlantic line. its a very early picture
john
Since he was looking out the front window of a Jamaica bound train, the shuttle connection is considered the turn out. the Carlton turnout was for Flatbush ave trains.
"I believe the old connection from the LIRR to what is now the Franklin Shuttle was from when the LIRR ran as a surface railroad. I've heard some rails are still there on the street level alongside the shuttle. But I can't confirm that. I heard that from someone in here."
The Franklin Shuttle turnout was never connected. The tracks rumored to be alongside the shuttle, was for the long gone Bedford Terminal.
"I think before the train comes out of the portal going into Nostrand Avenue there is a turnout that possibly went into the Brooklyn Armory. I might have that confused with the IRT turnout between Utica Ave and Sutter/Rutland."
That was the Franklin Shuttle connection. There was no such connection to the armory.
"A lot of the connections and turnouts have disappeared from plain sight. The building of the underground tunnels along Atlantic Ave in the late 1930's have erased a lot of them. Many of them exist now only on the older maps in the library."
That's true. When Atlantic Ave line was sunk into a subway, the line shrunk from four to two tracks. So some things have disappeared.
Bill "Newkirk"
They're there...on this page
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Franklin%20Ave%20station/franklin.html
I don't think the yard is closed or abandoned. Some time ago in a newspaper(maybe two weeks ago) there were photos of the yard with trains parked inside. Caught a glimpse of an M7 unit stored there.
Regards,
Jimmy
One of the things you might have also seen were the remnants of the old Woodhaven Junction (but this is between ENY and Jamaica). The station is still there, but if you were traveling at a high speed, the image of the station would have just been a blur.
=)
This Is What I Live For...
I thought any turnout from the LIRR to the Brighton Line (now the Franklin Shuttle) was erased when the tunnel was built along Atlantic Avenue. I have to take that train again.
Bill "Newkirk"
Great line! Rim shot.
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards-
'Sir John Holmes'
Regards,
Jimmy
And they're still diverting trains off the bridge on weekends; I predict that GO will continue even after the northern tracks open...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Also, diverting the Q or N just means that the train takes a few more minutes to cover its regular route; diverting the D sends it off-route entirely. Diverting the D is a much bigger deal and will be avoided if at all possible.
No decision on whether I'd do Kosher or Nathan's... My religion doesn't require me to keep Kosher and I love the flavor of Nathan's, but too much of Nathan's always seems to do very bad things to my digestive tract.
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
BTW, Nathans Franks are made from beef.
And just how many kinds of 100% pure beef might there be ???
Come out to our place and we'll kill a cow for you. Fresh Beef!
Elias
Having the West End back on Broadway and going to Astoria was fun while it lasted.
That is putting it mildly...
BMT-Lines.com
I have none of this available to me. I'm lucky KC Transit doesn't completely shut down, the way it's financed.
My pics
I know what you're thinking: "But Jeff, isn't it a BUS terminal?"
That's why them train tracks are in the picture.
Actually, that's the main tracks going through orlando, has lots of activity. I also assume those could go good with a commuter train or LRT. I don't see how hard it could be to add a 3rd track at that station maybe.
Either way, it's a 30 million dollar transit terminal, and who can't appreciate that.
Regards,
Jimmy
But I forgot to mention it's RIGHT ON THE BRT route, Lymmo. Which is also a great plus, since Lymmo doesn't serve the current terminal. It's a block west of the federal court tower.
Maybe 3 blocks, no more than that.
It was tri-regional transit system or something previously.
The sun was in and out, making for some interesting photography.
route 30, Camden
36th Street, Pennsauken
I asked an employee about the painted train and he told me that there are three so far, and he expects them to do all or nearly all of the fleet. Also that they are shrink-wrapped, not painted. He said one was in the paint shop and one was in the car wash, both at 32nd Street, and that neither would come out on Saturday. The third was in the layover facility at Hamilton Ave, Trenton. I was aware that acceptable photos can be contemplated only in the afternoon with sun, since the open side (behind a chain-link fence) faces west.
As I was leaving 36th Street, a CSX freight train left Pavonia Yard northbound, so I hustled up to Cove Road for another photo. The train stopped short of Cove Road just as I arrived, and an LRT came along.
I headed out again after lunch hoping I'd get sunlight in Trenton. I stopped along the way to get a photo at the Cinnaminson station and another in Riverside near the Rancocas Creek bridge.
I photographed the Trenton station with one LRT in it, then went across the street to the Amtrak/NJT Trenton station to use the facility, and came back to find two LRTs, so I took some more photos.
I was fortunate that the sun came out again so I could get some photos of #3514 in the layover facility at Hamilton Ave.
south end of 3514
north end of 3514
You can certainly tell the difference in lighting between sun and shade!
Also, the River Line logo is being applied to the sides of the cars near each end near the roof.
#3510 subsequently was moved onto the running track and was running(in test service) on Sunday.
#3510 near Cooper River
Fast forwarding after the two Ed Sullivan appearance in New York City, the Beatles then headed to Washington D.C. for a concert. Instead of flying, they took the train to D.C.
One scene on the documentary was filmed out the back door. It showed the train leaving a station, much like DLW Hoboken or CNJ Jersey City). But there was a platform on both side of the track, with catenary wire overhead. Was this the old PRR Jersey City terminal ? Interior film of the last car seemed like it was an old PRR heavyweight varnish. The final scene filmed out the back door showed a snow covered ROW, two track with catenary wire overhead. I don't know where this was filmed, possibly on the NEC in Maryland where the line is double tracked.
Arrival at Union Station D.C. had a quick shot of the boys passing a GG-1, which had the broad stripe on the side. They entered the interior of Union Station, to a throng of screaming teens, evident by the classic ceiling not scene over the current day shopping mall.
After the D.C. concert, it was onto Miami Beach, also by train. It wasn't clear if they flew back to England at Miami airport or took the train back to New York for the flight from JFK.
In closing, when the boys first left New York City for D.C., they left from New Jersey rather than Penn Station. It seems this would be a less conspicuous route, rather than Midtown. Anyone know when PRR Jersey City terminal closed to passenger service ? Also, how far was demolition of Pennsylvania Station progressed in February 1964 ?
Bill "Newkirk"
When leaving the terminal, the special was on a stub end track. Catenary overhead, but platforms on both sides of the track. Maybe this was stock footage of a train leaving Union Station ? Didn't look British to me.
Plumes of steam indicating steam heated coaches is evident also. And the scene of Union Station with a GG-1 in it, the GG-1's also had steam boilers for heat.
"this is the Maysles brothers movie correct?"
The video is titled "The Beatles first U.S. visit"
It's on MPI home video # MP 6218. It's copyrighted as 1990, being the popularity of the group, it may still be available. Possibly on DVD.
Bill "Newkirk"
Next stop on Fred's Sea Beach------20th Avenue.
Maybe they are English?? I suspect Americans might find a Liverpool accent hard to imitate. *I* find it hard to imitate, and I am English (8-) !
Getting back on topic, one of my son's favorite movies, A HARD DAY'S NIGHT, begins with a lengthy ride on one of those European intercity passenger trains with the little compartments. It was supposedly filmed right on the train, not a set. It appears to be a very fast, smooth ride. A lot of muffled clickety-clack is heard. Some nice black-and-white footage of a typical European open-air street level station with the skylights is also shown.
Hope to see you in two weeks.
To me, one of the more interesting musical bits in the film is Lennon tootling on what looks like a Hohner Melodica (clarinet with piano keys) sounding like the Melotron-synthesized flute intro to "Strawberry Fields Forever", recorded 2 1/2 years after the Beatles' first American visit.
Michael Wares
IIRC in summer of 1964 Penn Station was a maze of construction - nothing to be seen but passageways. I also took at trip on the CRR of NJ from Red Bank to their Jersey City pier (now Liberty State Park), and then a ferry to Liberty Street.
So there was still a way at that time to go by train from the west shore of the Hudson to Washington DC, though presumably a regular passenger would have had to change at Newark.
My own memory was riding a Fish Bowl M104 (with the subway-style bench seats) past the Times Square hotel (on the Saturday before the Sullivan show) where the Fab Four were staying, and gawking at the huge crowd of fans present. Also remember how damn cold it was!
OH, PULLEAZZE!
Keep in mind that I was still living in Indiana in 1964 and while I remember the Beatles and watched them on the Ed Sullivan Show, I didn't really get into them until after they broke up.
Imagine the Pennsylvania Railroad surviving today and the Acela trainsets painted in an updated tuscan red, gold stripe livery with Pennsy keystone ? After all, we have P-32 Genesis engines in the NHRR Maginnis livery.
Bill "Newkirk"
Ugh, sacrilege !
Penn Central merged the Pennsy, NY Central and NHRR, then killed them. PC black was the color of death ! I'm still waxing poetic about a GG-1 painted in the NJT scheme with disco stripes !!
Bill "Newkirk"
http://www.khi.co.jp/tech/ne149tr03.htm
Kawasaki Heavy Industries has a technical journal, whose abstracts are available in English. I don't know if the full articles are in English. At any rate, check out the abstract in the link. The Table of Contents link at the bottom takes you to other paper titles.
Alas, I could not find the full articles. Tey are probably not posted on-line.
Interesting site, though.
http://www.khi.co.jp/tech/ne149tr03.htm
Kawasaki Heavy Industries has a technical journal, whose abstracts are available in English. I don't know if the full articles are in English. At any rate, check out the abstract in the link. The Table of Contents link at the bottom takes you to other paper titles.
Alas, I could not find the full articles. They are probably not posted on-line.
Interesting site, though.
Let's assume that the Farley Post Office thing never happens, and that Amtrak remains at Penn Station.
But... Let's also assume the Madison Square Garden becomes obsolete due to the construction of a new facility near the Javits Center, and the power-that-be decide to tear down the current Penn Station and replace it with an entirely new facility. (It would be safe to assume that any new facility would also include at least one new office tower, since that real estate is much to valuable to have it solely occupied by a low-rise building.)
I think it's safe to assume that nobody would miss the current rat maze. However, it's also safe to assume that re-constructing the original McKim Mead & White masterpiece simply isn't going to happen due to cost and other considerations.
So, in a nutshell, how would you re-design Penn Station?
The biggest issue for me revolves around passenger flow, and this will dictate the design the new station. The current Penn Station and the original McKim Mead & White building had significant differences in how passengers used the station.
In the original station, there was a long retail arcade at street level that led to a huge climate-controlled waiting room in the center of the building. The waiting room was about one floor below street level, with grand staircases connecting it to the retail arcade and to side entrances on 31st and 33rd Streets. This waiting room contained ticket windows, newstands, restrooms, etc. Just west of the waiting room, and through a set of doors, was a huge glass-enclosed concourse area that contained stairs down to the platforms themselves. Based on the floor plan and the photos I've seen, I can assume this concourse area -- although enclosed in glass -- was not climate-controlled.
So, in a nutshell, you've got all trains and all railroads sharing a single huge waiting area and a single huge concourse.
Compare to the existing Penn Station that we all know and love, where each of the three railroads has its own small but dedicated waiting room and concourse, all connected by a labrynth of various passageways and stairs.
My question: Given today's operations, would it make more sense to have a single large concourse and waiting area shared my Amtrak, NJT, and LIRR (this wouldn't necessarily preclude a small Club Acela lounge for Amtrak off to the side), or would it be better for each railroad to have its own area of the station?
Also, the original Penn Station had a seperate below-ground driveway for taxi cabs to drop off and pick up passengers. I think we can all agree that this is far preferable to having cabs backed up outdoors on 7th Avenue in front of the station, but I'm willing to listen to contrary opinions.
Also, are there any major changes to the platform/track layout that should be made, if given the chance? Of course it would be great to have another pair of tunnels under the Hudson, but that's another can of worms. Off the top of my head, I'd maybe add another track between tracks 18 and 19, cutting away part of the extra-wide platform that serves track 18. (Let's assume that any changes can't enlarge the actual "bathtub" area of the station, since it's pretty well hemmed-in by the city already.)
Let's also assume that any reconstruction of Penn Station would also include a re-vamp of the adjacent subway stations (7th Avenue IRT and 8th Avenue IND lines). So if there's anything on your wish list for those stations, speak now.
Well, that's about all the questions I can think of now, but I may add more later.
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Also, if the Farley building plans don't fall through, don't expect them to build an entirely brand new building, it isn't going to happen.
And besides that, Penn Station was already reconstructed once while remaining open to passenger service. It could happen again, and likely will; the current facility won't last forever.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
I imagine any replacement station will be stacked vertically like the new Time Warner Center at Columbus Circle--an office tower over a new Garden over NJT/LIRR terminals. (Adding significant new commercial real estate to the design would help make it economically feasible, although still a very expensive dream).
As for a design wishlist, a more open, airy design tops it. Penn is a maze that is very hard to navigate because of the low ceilings and columns. Second, I wonder if it's possible to incorporate ramps like Grand Central's to move passengers smoothly.
Interesting point... Although as much as I'm in favor of improving Penn Station, the whole Farley project seems like a bit of a political boondoggle, though.
I imagine any replacement station will be stacked vertically like the new Time Warner Center at Columbus Circle--an office tower over a new Garden over NJT/LIRR terminals. (Adding significant new commercial real estate to the design would help make it economically feasible, although still a very expensive dream).
I'd think that any new incarnation of MSG would be over near the Javits Center, and thus out of the picture. I tend to agree with office towers, though, given the realities of Midtown real estate.
As for a design wishlist, a more open, airy design tops it. Penn is a maze that is very hard to navigate because of the low ceilings and columns. Second, I wonder if it's possible to incorporate ramps like Grand Central's to move passengers smoothly.
I agree about the open space. Ramps would be difficult at Penn, though, since the concourses are at least 15 feet above the platforms. Thus, any ramp going from the concourse to the platform would need to be almost 200 feet long. Much more reasonable to have elevators for ADA compliance, and let everybody else use stairs or escalators. GCT has the advantage of being a terminal, so the platforms and concourse can be at (almost) the same level.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
I tend to agree.... I was once waiting for a NJT Trenton Local one night a couple months ago, and for some reason, they decided to board at something like track 20 or so. It caused all of us who were waiting in the NJT area to have to scramble over to the LIRR area to grab the train.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
So in your scenario, are we just assuming Skidmore gets the contract, or...? :)
Heh, good one.... I'm actually assuming that David S. Cole & Associates gets the contract. :-)
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Unlikely to happen in today's "terrorist averse" climate. Union Station in Chicago has a below-ground driveway for taxis, which has been closed for the past two years, backing up cabs on surrounding streets. They even closed down the taxi stand on Madison St. in front of the Citicorp Center/Ogilvie Transportation Center (formerly NorthWestern Station), and it's just a curbside taxi stand!
-- Ed Sachs
At GC there's an in-building street level stand on Vanderbilt, also closed.
More annoying is the closure of Park Row to all traffic under 1 Police Plaza.
The adult diaper market is indeed booming.
I think it's being used as a construction staging area for the ongoing rebuilding of the part of the plant that exploded a couple years ago, not terrorism-related.
Lot's of bodies in the 5 Headquarters building, and no garage!!!
Wonder who made that decision, as the Headquarters main building was built in 1970, when the auto was king in Baltimore since we has stupidly destroyed our rail transit.
Reminds me of when the Sears Tower decided to put concrete barricades around the base of the building and install dozens of metal detectors in the lobby as a response to 9/11... As if any of that would have saved the WTC towers. Idiots!
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
-- Ed Sachs
You wouldn't be able to go into the WTC now regardless of any security.
I'd like to assume that it *does* happen. The original Penn shouldn't have been demolished, but it won't come back now. The Farley is a similarly historic building, and if imaginative architects (like you, David) worked on it it, surely it could be converted into a surface building worthy of New York's major rail access.
I'm aware of the difficulties of gaining access to the platforms from further west, but the technology of moving, sloping escalators should not be beyond the job.
Incidentally, in Auckland, New Zealand, the historic post office building has just been converted into ... the surface building of the city's main train station! They've made a wonderful job of the onversion. Shame there are hardly any trains there....
Why do 1587 and 1590 (as well as 1588 and 1589) have different seats from all of the other R62s? Thanks in advance.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=630367
David
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Does anyone own any volumes...are the diffficult to obtain and how much per volume?
www.forgotten-ny.com
www.forgotten-ny.com
I have a complete set and correspond with Phil occasionally. I know he doesn't have any Volume I's. I talked about reprinting it, but he wants to re-write it first.
As far as print runs go, the books were in the 200 to 400 copy range, depending on the volume.
Where is the skylight? I seemed to see a balcony under it as well.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The skylight is the old Times Plaza head house. Located in the triangular island bounded by Fourth, Flatbush and Atlantic Aves. It was moved months ago so structural work underneath for the passage widening could take place. It was moved back and restored to original appearance. Note how good it looks with years of white paint sandblasted away.
Bill "Newkirk"
http://www.jbss.de/
click on English, then on registration.
You go through a 3ed party called share-it for payment.
https://secure.shareit.com/shareit/checkout.html?affiliateid=72909&productid=156939
Total: EUR 25.00 / USD 33.33
That's right ... the American dollar is WORTHLESS ... look at the conversion rate, it's PITIFUL. Heil Shrub ... but dat's da price. :(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3465221.stm
and just tell us what you think ;-)
The BBC points out that Transport Secretary Alistair Darling banned publication by the Strategic Rail Authority of its report on a new fast route between London and Scotland. "The government is deeply worried about the £36bn cost."
The likely outcome is that the Strategic Rail Authority will lose its authority to eight regional controllers who will have control over both the tracks (National Rail) and the train operating companies. Some see this is a step towards re-nationalisation.
I wouldn't expect the high speed rail plan to come to fruition for many years, unless the European Commission pushes for it.
"those were the days..."
Chuck Greene
Check out Bill Monaghan's site: http://users.snip.net/~trolleydriver/
for the current news on the Girard Avenue project.
(Sorry for no link, but my HTML skills are a little bit lacking.)
Mark
Instead of "smooth ride of rail", I would have suggested "smooth GLIDE of rail" ... but I"m being picky. :)
Why don't you just say so? :0)
Assuming you are arriving at JFK, you would follow the green or yellow signs marked "Airtain", it is elevated and is usually across the taxi/bus lanes from the terminal entrance. You cannot miss seeing the Airtrain station across the way. If you have a lot of luggage, take the elevators up. Select the Airtrain platform on the elevator controls (some stations have 4 levels) and take the ride to Jamaica (Howard Beach is OK and is next door to the A train, but Jamaica is more fun because that's where it runs nearly 55 MPH on the Van Wyck expressway for 3 miles. Biggest drawback to Jamaica is the E train is 1 block away.) When you exit, you must pay the $5 fare there, get a PAY-PER-RIDE METROCARD FOR $10. You will need 2 fares on that card. DO NOT GET THE UNLIMITED RIDE METROCARD FOR $40 AT THE MACHINE. It is NOT good on the subway or bus and is seperate from the Airtrain. As you know the E from Supthin Blvd/Jamaica or the A from Howard Beach will both take you to 42nd st/Port Authotiry, the stop you need
Any other questions, I will be here. Can't wait to be a part of subway history.
And be there at 5:30 at the announced location on Sunday morning, or else. You waited 13 long, suffering years for this and you are dissing us in taking a later N train instead? What good is that?
You probably don't have a precise itinerary yet. There's no way my wife is going to allow me to go out riding trains at midnight. But hopefully a bunch of us can get together during the day Sunday. With the service changes and the book signing at the Museum, there'll be lots to do. I'm going to try to take my young'un along. He's a Sea Beach fan (loves the sound of air rushing when going through the underpasses). Even better, he's a Met fan!
For what it's worth, we did meet back on Columbus Day 2002. A bunch of us went to Coney and other places. We had a ball watching you spot rats in the Montague tubes.
And he's definitely a railfan window buff, especially considering how scarce they're growing. We could always count on being able to get a 32 or 40 on the N. Hopefully the line won't go all 68 on us with the new service patterns.
Any train that stops at either Jay Street or Borough Hall comes close to the Museum. On weekends, that would be the 2, 3, 4, A, C, F and R.
You should ride it once to experience it for yourself. After that, use it again if you like it, or not.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck
--Mark
Oh, Fred!! Does this mean that you won't be wearing your signature shorts with your wallet sticking out of the back pocket?!? It won't be the same not seeing that!
Then we will see you on the very first regularly scheduled N express train via. bridge since 1990 at 5:30 AM.
OFF TOPIC discussion board for RAILFANS
RailfanWindow.com Gallery of Photos
avid
#3 West End Jeff
Goodbye 9288! I will miss my S/N!
I finally received my copy of Subwayland by Randy Kennedy (St. Martin's Press 2004) yesterday. I was particularly interested in how the article he wrote on me when I was 17 years old and doing a subway marathon for my HS senior thesis was included and his depiction of buffs in general. In speaking with Randy since my trip I gathered didn't have the highest praise for buffs (and I certainly do not blame him, I know more completely degenerate buffs than normal ones). I typed up some excerpts from the book for discussion on the message board.
On Buffs
"...One of the telltale signs is that he- it is nearly always a he; most rail fans are male, middle-aged and single; the married ones call their wives 'rail-widows' -- can sit for several hours watching stunningly prosaic slides of subway trains that, to the untrained eye, all look pretty much identical" (Kennedy 18).
"Over the years, the unusual ardor or rail fans has given rise to a long list of less-than-flattering nicknames. The most widely used term is foamer, which may have been used first by Amtrak employees to refer to rail fans who grew so excited when looking at trains they seemed to be rabid. Another theory holds that this term was adapted from the acronym FOMITE, which stood for 'fanatically obnoxious mentally incompetent train enthusiast.'
Other names included glazer (eyes glaze over at sight of trains); gerf (glassy-eyed rail fan); and flim (foamer living with mother.) Transit Authority employees privately use a much stronger term: fern, in which the 'r' and 'n' stand for 'rail nut' and the 'f' stands for what you think it stands for.
Transit Authority officials hold such a dim view of rail fans, in fact, that they do not like to comment publicly about them for fear that it will only encourage the more unstable, some of whom officials complain, trespass into rail yards and risk life and limb to get pictures of trains" (Kennedy 19).
"... one transit official said. 'They tend to show up at any event where we're tolling out new equipment or making any changes in the system. You always know who it's going to be. And they don't look like regular human beings'" (Kennedy 19).
Thankfully, he seemingly excluded me from the aforementioned group, stating in his article on my marathon 36 hour trip included in the book:
"Mr. Beck does not look the part of what transit workers call a foamer, meaning he loves the subway so much that he appears rabid when discussing it. He has long, black, rock 'n' roll sideburns and was traveling with a Weezer CD in his portable stereo yesterday... but they (my parents) were eventually persuaded after Mr. Beck explained the valuable lessons he would be learning in sociology and urban affairs..." (Kennedy 36, 37).
Ironically enough I am now majoring in Urban Affairs...
- Harry
I think this is a generally correct observation.
Did he update any of his articles for this book?
--Mark
Dare I ask....?
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
BTW: Welcome to NYC next week David.
BTW: Thanks
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Not all railfans are like that. Some I meet on the MOD trips are weird, but some are perfectly normal.
Unfortunately the "sterotype" railfans get are almost warranted as many are a different sort of person, and those are the ones that stand out. I am amazed at some of the fanatics and strange people that fantrips do bring out. Many of you have met "Superfoamer" on the MOD trips. It also amazes me how some of these people dress on fantrips. It is not uncommon to see people wearing a T-shirt that is so worn out that it should have been used as a rag years ago; that may have fit the person wearing it 20 years ago, but certainly doesn't now; and not to mention should have been washed weeks ago.
Unfortunately, those are the people you notice, and those seem to be the most prevelant. People are less likely to notice the "normal" person along for the ride. Although there are many weird people on fantrips, etc, I have met many "normal" everyday types of people too. People mostly notice the weird and fanatical people, and you have them in every hobby. For some reason though you never see them walking down the street under normal circumstances.....
I don't spend hours watching trains go by. But, as a hobby, it's:
1) free or very low cost
2) doesn't require a lot of interaction if the railfan isn't comfortable being social
3) Not inherently harmful to others
Whatever makes you happy...
Does your mother live with youand your wife?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
:0)
Does your mother live with youand your wife?
Interesting question. My wife and I moved into the same apartment I've lived in since I was 6. My mother now sleeps in my old room, while we sleep in our parent's old bedroom. It's somewhat of a forced arrangement, given that my mother couldn't afford to support herself. My wife was living with HER parents before we were married, but being a woman, that's OK.
His descriptions of subway technology and operations are laughable at best, and shockingly wrong at worst. I wish he'd either take the time to contact the proper people at transit, or just NOT WRITE rather than repeating hearsay.
I used to read his Times column every week, then I started skipping it, now I just don't buy the Times at all.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Now THOSE would be an "eBay" collector's item.
Mark
There are political forces in NJ right now that want to extend Hudson-Bergen Light Rail up this line, but for now only as far north as Tenafly.
If only I'd be able to take that trip on a nice spring afternoon in 2004.... [sigh]
BTW, what bus was it that ran from Butler to Newark? IINM, there was once a line that was the equivilant to a present-day combined 11 and 75-- is this true?
Thanks!
Also reported that the "connection" from the E,J,Z to the Airtrain opened, but when I went there yesterday, I found that it was only the escalator to the street closest to the Airtrain (on Sutphin, b the stairs to the LIRR platforms) that was open. Right next to it, adjacent to the subway fare control area was a huge boarded off area, with what looked like an outline in the wall next to the escalator inside the building. This of course leads to what will be the glass enclosed new street entrance, plus elevators and perhaps more escalators to the portion of the new structure above the platforms over Sutphin, which will also lead to the Airtrain (there is a plain wall with two doors in the Airtrain terminal to the right of the baggage area, where this will come out.
I did get a nice new map of the airport!
CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT THE HELL THAT IS?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Thanks in advance,
Brian
OFF TOPIC discussion board for RAILFANS
RailfanWindow.com Gallery of Photos
Now watch Brian jump all over me. 8-)
Me? Are we playing leap-frog?
I was amazed at LA's highway system, so huge, I kindof loved it. But coming from a sprawling poor service economy city, I can see what it's talking about. Only difference is, there wasn't any highways nor transit systems. Imagine that nightmare.
I was amazed at LA's highway system, so huge, I kindof loved it. But coming from a sprawling poor service economy city, I can see what it's talking about. Only difference is, there wasn't any highways nor transit systems. Imagine that nightmare.
Always alluring, Southern California has turned into a smog-choked, gridlocked, unaffordable place for many of those trying to make a decent life.
Roads are not being built, jobs are not being created and housing is not growing fast enough to meet demand.
An annual report released Thursday by the Southern California Association of Governments said the six-county region gets low marks in nearly every basic measure of the quality of life.
Economic recession and the state's fiscal crisis have compounded the region's problems, but experts say the report will end up gathering dust on a shelf, and the problems will remain, unless some drastic changes are made.
The decline in the quality of life will continue, they say, unless the leaders of the six counties Los Angeles, San Bernardino, Ventura, Riverside, Orange and Imperial and cities across the sprawling area start to coordinate their efforts to solve a long list of problems and get funding from local taxes and state and federal governments.
"One of the great difficulties in this region, which is nothing new, is that it is very difficult to deal with the regional questions that have to be dealt with because it's a region that's very fragmented with local governments, with parochial governments,' said William Fulton, a senior scholar at the USC School of Planning, Policy and Development.
"That remains the most difficult question: How to govern effectively, both locally and regionally? Until we come to terms with that, we're not going to be able to tackle these big questions.
"Southern California is smoggy, crowded, congested, expensive. It's also a place that people still come to for opportunity and 16 million people chose to stay in,' he said. "Even though we may be short-term and parochial in our policy view, we're all going to probably live here for rest of our lives.'
Mobility continued to get the worst grade on the annual report a D-minus with traffic jammed across the region as residents move farther out in search of affordable housing and transportation infrastructure fails to keep pace with enough new roads and mass- transit options.
Commuters waste days each year just sitting in idle traffic. Those from the eastern counties, a Mecca of new, single- family homes, saw a 70-percent increase in traffic delays over the last decade.
All that stagnant traffic contributes to bad air, and ways of improving air quality have become harder to implement, which is partly why there were more smoggy days in 2002 and 2003.
More new residents called the six-county region home over the past two years than at any time since the 1950s and 6 million more are on the way, thanks to childbearing, immigration and the enduring promise of the sun-kissed region.
About half the population growth has been from people having children, and most of the other half comes from foreign immigration.
Of the 330,000 new residents from the past two years, 280,000 are Latino and 41,000 are Asian, while the white and African- American populations declined.
But far from the dreamy land of opportunity of days past, residents find an area hit with a recession that resulted in its first job losses in a decade, per capita income declines and housing prices out of reach.
Gone are good-paying manufacturing jobs that propel the middle class along with information-sector jobs, only to be replaced by lower-level retail and service-industry work.
At the same time, housing affordability always far below the rest of the nation in popular Southern California has grown to the point that fewer than one-third of the region's households in 2002 could afford a median-priced home.
While the region was not hit with as many job losses as during the early 1990s recession or the recent dot-com bust in San Francisco, the downturn still hits home.
Despite the high cost of big-city living, Southern California remains one of the nation's only metropolitan regions with per capita income levels below the national average.
Payroll incomes continued to be at the bottom for the big metropolitan regions at $38,692, compared with other areas like Dallas at $40,457 or New York at $50,529.
The downward income slide is likely to continue with the loss of good-paying jobs and a growing adult population that does not have the educational level to compete Southern California has more adults without high school diplomas than any other metro area, the report said.
Despite the enormous challenges to the good life, residents flock to Southern California the flow of outward migration is on the downswing again, after residents fled with the '90s recession, one expert said.
"People want to come to California because there's wonderful things here shoot, we elect an actor as our governor,' said SCAG President Bev Perry, a councilwoman in the Orange County city of Brea.
OK, so I'll paraphrase Phil:
"So what? The faster that wasteland slides into the ATLANTIC, the better off the US is..."
Oh yes, there's also signs along the tracks telling you not to kill yourself here, and signs on the highways telling you to not run over illegals running around on the road. And there's nothing but wackos everywhere. Freeway (there's no highways or parkways, the'yre all freeways) entrances are randomly placed, if you get off one, finding the on ramp's a royal pain. Drivers are nuts at best, lousy at worst. There's meter lights everywhere. In LA, It's illegal to drive through certain intersectons more than 3 times in an hour. I'm not kidding.
Did I mention it's full of nutcases?
Ahhhhnold's election didn't surprise me the least. And frankly, from here, the recall was fun to watch :)
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Gasoline/Diesel going up in So .California.$2.oo+a gallon( on topic )
wonder if our pacific electric system was 100% left completely
alone !
just think all of those already built right of ways added on to the
rtd / lacmta 70 miles we have now .........
you would not need to pay over $2.oo+a gallon for petrol !!
what a BIG RIPOFF !!
they stole us blind !!
i want revenge now !! damnit !!
............no.........lol
That says it all, folks. The transit-free, car-only, nothing-within-walking-distance experiment has failed.
Mark
Since taking a job in downtown Miami last year, I have had the distinct displeasure of riding Metrorail to work. I have traveled all over the world, and Miami-Dade County's rail system is the worst I have seen.
The trains do not run on schedule. They constantly break down, making people late for work. There are not enough cars, and elevators and escalators at the stations often don't work. Some have been inoperable since I began this horrendous trip in August.
I take the train from the Dadeland North station. Because they are not running on schedule, the cars are jammed with people. There is no place to sit. Of the station's four elevators only one was working recently, and only sporadically. Riders have to use the stairs.
The People Mover at Government Center has the same problems. The trains don't run on time; the cars are dirty, hot in the summer and cold in the winter. There are no guards or other employees who know what's going on. If you ask them who to complain to, they say that they dont know. E-mails sent to the complaint departments are not answered; neither are calls to the complaint line. The phone just rings and rings -- or you are immediately put on hold. One day, I waited on the line for 41 minutes.
There are signs that say that the system is undergoing renovation. They have been there for six months, and nothing has improved. Ads encourage people to take Metrorail to ease congestion on the roadways. If we had a well-run system, maybe more people would.
Is Miami-Dade Transit agency short on maintenance money?
When the R-40 slants are retired, maybe we can send a dozen or so down there. The A/C works great and should withstand Miami's sauna summers !
Bill "Newkirk"
I guess the fact that I love the way those slants look may effect my support too. :)
Miami here I come everyweekend!
I should've put in a footnote mentioning traffic relief tax and how it's supposed to refurbish the whole thing.
Mark
Mark
What else? A voltage drop?
Maybe my speculations are totally off here...Jeff? Philip?
Bill "Newkirk"
Robert
Robert
Only thing I wanna know is how did you trip the third rail at Delancy? (grin)
Robert
Robert
Glad you got past the markers though before the chit hit the tripper. Heh.
Robert
Isn't that the largest size they make?
: )
http://www.ble272.org/Alarms.htm
On the main page there are resources to help engineers become familliar with the Sunnyside to Dover et al areas.
:OP
Jimmy
I don't know if the 4 is giving up R142As or R142s. I also don't know if this rumored car swap is going to happen or not (March 2004 was the supposed time they'd make their appearance).
I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens.
I'll kill before I let the 5 lose its R142's sinceit has the best voice and coolest announcemtns.
I really like "This is a Bronx bound 5 train. The next. STop is. 138st, Grand councourse"
How do you know she's fat?
i just hope the kawasaki r62 goes to the 7 to hell with 11 cars
and the 142's come to the 3 and 1 trains with 10 sets taken off the 2,4,5,and6
the top says the retarted 2 train voice
(THIS IS A MANHATTAN BOUND 2 TRAIN THE NEXT STOP IS BOROUGH HALL
Then how will the (7) get any? The R-142S order isn't enough.
1Shuttle9
its only my assumption, don't quote me
I think that the #7's r62's will go to the BMT south to add extra service when the manhattan bridge opens, and that the #7 will get flying elephants.
Why not send the elephants to CIY so they can hang out with the hippos?
Judging from how inaccurate the automated announcements can be on lines currently running the equipment, I shudder to think how often the outbound PM local/express differentiation will be wrong. There's no substitute for a live conductor yelling "LOCAL train, LOCAL, LOCAL, 33rd next, watch the closing doors on the LOCAL"- or the corresponding speech for the express.
That won't be necessary anymore, since the automated announcements SHOULD be loud enough to be heard anywhere on the platform, and if you don't hear that, you have the outside destination signs, which WILL CORRECTLY tell people if it's express or local, unlike the current usually wrong/can't trust 'em roll signs.
You're obviously an idiot.
Numero uno: How many times do CR's speak english inteligibly?
Numero dos: I'm sorry, but the R142 cannot change all signage and announcemtns to reflect something as rudimentary as local or express; only things with rollsigns and CR's who are less understandable than the idiot with the nextel, can do this.
Numero uno: How many times do CR's speak english inteligibly?
Numero dos: I'm sorry, but the R142 cannot change all signage and announcemtns to reflect something as rudimentary as local or express; only things with rollsigns and CR's who are less understandable than the idiot with the nextel, can do this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
better question how many times can you folks listen to announcements, actually , read or don't get me started on speakingthe english language. do you know how many morons ride the 142/143 and with all of the announcements signs still don't know where the hell they are going. I mean there a C/R on the 7 line with a sign hanging on him reading local on the flip side express, make the local/express announcements loud and clear towake the dead and stil, STILL folks ack what this train is doing. high tech or not ssome people listen and pay attention to wha tthey feel like SOMETIMES
another mess up happened when the rogers ave jct on the eastern pkwy irt broke down. people dont pay attention when the mta said that all man bound 5 trains wll be local from new lots to atlantic and 3 end at utica. or even when occasional 2 trains pop up at utica going up the east side as the 5 and back as the 2
one last thing people really hate it when the 3 and 4 make short turns in brooklyn at atlantic and utica. the c/r says there will be a shuttle downstairs at utica to newlots and the passengers reall get pissed and suck their teeth like crazy
If and when CBTC is installed on the 7 -- many years away, at best -- we can come back to this thread. Until then, I highly doubt any R-142's are going to the 7.
Notice that once the 3 gives up its last three trainsets of R-62A's, each route (and hence each shop) will have only one type of car to worry about, with the exception of the 4. There's no reason for more than one shop to have multiple car types to deal with. I haven't worked the numbers, but if the equipment moves around, expect that rule to be maintained.
As a West Sider, I'd be thrilled if the 2 and 7 swapped fleets, but it ain't gonna happen.
Notice that once the 3 gives up its last three trainsets of R-62A's, each route (and hence each shop) will have only one type of car to worry about, with the exception of the 4. There's no reason for more than one shop to have multiple car types to deal with. I haven't worked the numbers, but if the equipment moves around, expect that rule to be maintained.
As a West Sider, I'd be thrilled if the 2 and 7 swapped fleets, but it ain't gonna happen
-that kind of like when the B and C lines switched nother terminals it worked out for concourse to deal with the 68/68as (at the time) i do see your point. as for the Duece losing the those cars i agree. as a kid i thought 2 and 4 would have the 62/62as among them and since the 1,3 and 9 are shorter compared to the 2 and 4 i figured that they would get new stuff-and keep it. but i was wrong well as much as I miss the redbirds on the Lex and 7th ave some lines are long over due for new eqiptment and should not be the dumping ground for cars on thier last legs. but all in all the the redbirds were reliable and a favorite of mine with some flaws but you got new cars and should intend to keep them
4 train voice
5 train voice
5 train voice again
Really fast talking 5 train voice
OK, so I'll paraphrase Phil:
"So what? The faster that wasteland slides into the ATLANTIC, the better off the US is..."
Oh yes, there's also signs along the tracks telling you not to kill yourself here, and signs on the highways telling you to not run over illegals running around on the road. And there's nothing but wackos everywhere. Freeway (there's no highways or parkways, the'yre all freeways) entrances are randomly placed, if you get off one, finding the on ramp's a royal pain. Drivers are nuts at best, lousy at worst. There's meter lights everywhere. In LA, It's illegal to drive through certain intersectons more than 3 times in an hour. I'm not kidding.
Did I mention it's full of nutcases?
Ahhhhnold's election didn't surprise me the least. And frankly, from here, the recall was fun to watch :)
Maybe I'll have so much fun with the camera phone I'll be pushed towards using the real camera.
Either way, I will post strings of pictures (and no browser window resizing, I have my own web space).
A few things to note, though. I recently got a camera phone, and the picture quality isn't all that great (640x480 resolution and the image quality leaves something to be desired). Plus picture messages usually come with a fee, and also cost minutes to send.
But who knows - it might work out for you.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
The picture quality isn't as good as a digital camera but it sure comes in handy for anything unexpected. Like when I took a couple of photos of Prospect Park in the dark with the platform lights completely out.
Plus picture messages usually come with a fee, and also cost minutes to send.
Sprint charges $15 a month (in addition to the monthly phone charges), for unlimited photos and unlimited sending and receiving of the same photos. You have to sign up for the Picture Mail Premium Pack when asking for the PCS Vision. You can even download photos and go into Sprint's website to rearrannge photos into albums. On each MOD excursion trip, I managed to take over 150 photos and rearrange them into a library of albums.
Biggest drawback with Sprint is you have to look closely at your monthly invoice, they can be sneaky at times.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
www.forgotten-ny.com
They do on the Montauk Branch. First stop after Jamaica is Patchogue.
Off-topic, but yours truly was mentioned in a New York Daily News story a few weeks ago... I forgot to mention it at the time, but just found the link again after digging through my e-mail archives.
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
8>) ~ Sparky
http://www.downtownexpress.com/de_39/debatinglirrlink.html
In short, the article says that the Montague tunnel option is in the pole position, because it doesn't require a new East River tunnel (and hence is most likely cheaper), but would be less disruptive to existing service than the Cranberry tunnel option (because the Montague has spare capacity now that the N has been routed over the bridge).
If there were a proposal to expand use of the Montague tube for plain old subway service, would anyone on this board object?
The Manny B has just finished what is supposed to be a rehab that will serve for decades. Unless the work has been done with unparalleled incompetence, we should assume the bridge will be available for the foreseeable future.
Although the Montague tunnel is underused for subway service, especially when the bridge is open, it would be a disaster to take it away from the subway. It is always good to have an alternative route. In this age of terrorism you never know what could happen. We could live without the MB subway tracks as long as the Montague is usable for subway trains. If the tunnel was given up, and something happened to the MB (structurally or otherwise), the subway would be crippled.
If anything, with all the money that was spent on refurbiushing the MB for subway use over the last 20 years, the probably should have spent that money on a tunnel replacement.
Everyone assumed the WTC would be available for the foreseeable future
And had we assumed the contrary, what are you suggesting we should have done about it?
The original poster assumes that the Manhattan Bridge will be around for many years to come because of the recent refurbishment.
We have learned that we should not assume anyone or anyplace is "terrorist free". It is better to have backup plans in place instead of no plan
Ideally, there would be a backup route for every service. Well, get over it. For the most part, we just don't have that. Indeed, the existing services generally are inadequate for current usage.
The Montague St tunnel is one of the few corridors that is under-utilized. Are you saying we should continue to not use it, because of some unforeseeable future disaster? That is insane.
As I asked in an earlier post, suppose the MTA proposed to use the Montague tunnel's spare capacity for plain old subway service to Brooklyn. Would you object? I'm guessing you wouldn't.
There's a difference between increasing subway service into the tunnel (which of course would be fine) or giving it over to AirTrain or the LIRR for service, thus making it unsuable anymore for the subway. The latter scenario is unacceptable.
The proposal is to utilize spare capacity in the tunnel, not to evict the subway. The reason this proposal has gained traction is that the Montague tunnel has significant spare capacity, but the Cranberry tunnel does not.
Neither the Cranberry nor the Montague proposal contemplates making the existing tunnels no longer usable for subway service.
The Montague St Tunnel isn't the best way for BMT subway traffic to get to/from Brooklyn. But in case something happened to the Manhattan Bridge, (It can just be a B.I.E. on the bridge) the tunnel would be the only way getting to/from Brooklyn.
If the LIRR takes over the Montague tunnel, How would people get from Manhattan to Brooklyn? Try answering that because if something does happen on the bridge, that would have to be answered quickly.
It all boils down to this. Which is more important? A tunnel for subway traffic or a tunnel for LIRR traffic? There has to be a way to do for it for both.
You are reacting to a non-existent problem. No one has proposed that the LIRR "take over" (i.e., kick the subway out of) the Montague St tunnel.
Wasn't that one of the proposed ideas for LIRR service to Lower Manhattan?
http://www.downtownexpress.com/de_39/debatinglirrlink.html
Wasn't that one of the proposed ideas for LIRR service to Lower Manhattan?
The proposal is to develop hybrid vehicles that could share the subway and the Atlantic Avenue branch of the LIRR. (You couldn't run existing LIRR trains or AirTrains in subway tunnels, any more than you could run existing subway trains on mainline rail tracks.)
After the MannyB changes go into effect later this month, there will be considerable unused capacity in the Montague tunnel, and this whole debate is about whether that capacity should be used, or allowed to lie fallow. The debate is not about kicking the subway out of the Montague tunnel, which is clearly impossible and has been advocated by no one.
The GREAT Montague tunnel is better off left alone.
N Bwy
The article says "All four options would provide a one-seat ride to the airport and would either stop in the proposed Fulton Transit Center or near the World Trade Center hub." But the article also quotes Jeffrey Zupan, a transportation analyst with the Regional Plan Association, as saying “you’re going to have to transfer at Jamaica.”
Another report in Mobilizing the Region, which makes a rather convincing case against the plan, refers to "LIRR – Downtown Options". According to that report, the option that would use two subway tunnels would have both an LIRR service and a JFK service.
But the two earlier plans were for one-seat rides to Jamaica only.
In the debate over which tunnel(s) to use, this question has not been answered, or if it has I have not clearly understood.
It's both. The LMDC's website describes it as a "Long Island and JFK Airport Access Study." The accompanying diagram is captioned "Long Island Commuter and JFK Services." The route along the LIRR Atlantic Avenue branch is labeled "Commuter & Airport Services."
Not all of the news articles have been written with the greatest of care, so some of them describe it as exclusively an LIRR project, and others describe it as exclusively an airport project. Clearly, at least for now, it's both. Of course, another problem is that this project has had almost as many lives as the Second Avenue Subway, and it's easy to confuse the present incarnation with other versions.
If the project goes forward, I suspect there'll be some verbal sleight-of-hand around what constitutes a one-seat ride to the airport. It could mean that one ride takes you from Manhattan to any of the six JFK terminals that have AirTrain stations. But it could also mean that one ride takes you onto airport property, where you make a cross-platform transfer to the AirTrain to reach your terminal.
I suspect that, because the AirTrain platforms are so short, the train you board in Manhattan won't be the train that gets you to the terminal. A cross-platform transfer to the AirTrain seems to me reasonable. Even the Brookfield proposal (which I don't think is any longer the favorite) required a cross-platform xfer at Jamaica.
Another report in Mobilizing the Region, which makes a rather convincing case against the plan, refers to "LIRR – Downtown Options".
I didn't find it all that convincing — starting with the fact that whoever wrote it, like some journalists, doesn't even seem to have read the proposal, and hence erroneously describes it as "LIRR-Downtown Options." I could go on to list the other factual errors in this report, but why bother?
Your analogy is quite good.
The trip from Canal St to Terminal 6 at 2:00pm on a Friday took about 65 minutes, but the connecting passageway at Jamaica Station wasn't yet open, and I lost several minutes finding the AirTrain. It will be a lot smoother when the passageway opens.
The trip from Terminal 6 to Broadway-Nassau at 7:30pm on a Sunday took about 90 minutes, in large measure because I had a very long wait for an A train on a cold platform at Howard Beach. Two Rockaway-bound A trains went by in the opposite direction before a Manhattan-bound A train arrived.
The Sunday evening trip was certainly a lot longer (although far cheaper) than a taxi ride would have been. Even the weekday trip to JFK was probably a bit longer than the typical taxi ride from that location, although there is always the potential of being bottled up for hours in weekday traffic.
Terminal 6 (JetBlue) certainly drew the short straw when the AirTrain stations were designed. The station there lacks a direct indoor entrance to the AirTrain station, unlike most of the other terminals. I can't imagine what could have possessed them to design it that way. Only the now-vacant Terminal 5 got a worse deal: its closest AirTrain station is at Terminal 6. This will be a significant drawback for any upstart airline that would consider occupying Terminal 5.
The AirTrain vehicles themselves run at very frequent intervals. They're spacious, comfortable, and seemingly a lot faster than the former bus route from Howard Beach to the terminals. (I wonder how much time you really save?)
The Howard Beach station is still under construction. The connection to the subway could have been more intelligently designed. The walk from the AirTrain to the Manhattan-bound platform seems to be longer than necessary, when you consider that this connection was virtually the raison d'etre of the station. A climate-controlled waiting area would significantly improve the customer experience. I realize that most subway stations don't have this, but for a purpose-built station it could have been incorporated easily.
Especially since JetBlue recently passed American to become the carrier with the greatest number of passengers at JFK. In addition, it's probably reasonable to say that JetBlue passengers are more likely to use transit, as opposed to taxis or car services, than are passengers on most other airlines at JFK.
The AirTrain vehicles themselves run at very frequent intervals. They're spacious, comfortable, and seemingly a lot faster than the former bus route from Howard Beach to the terminals. (I wonder how much time you really save?)
Actual running time is maybe 10 to 15 minutes less on AirTrain, depending on terminal. What's more significant is that fact that AirTrain frequencies are far greater than the bus frequencies. It was not at all uncommon to wait over 30 minutes for a bus. And it should go without saying that the ride on AirTrain is so much more pleasant than the buses that any comparison is ludicrous.
CG
Share your thoughts with MTA and the PA. Maybe there's still time to do a little refining...
But there's no danger of that if you don't take that initiative.
The major problem is for anyone a large suitcase. It is not easy to connect at HB. Jamaica will continue to cause problems until the passageway to the subway is finished.
Non-metered parking is hard to find by 23-Ely.
There is a municipal parking garage at the Queens Plaza station.
http://www.nycrail.com/amb/otbrd/8.html
If you want, you can park by my house in Staten Island - no alternate sides rules, but a bit of a trek from the Marriott.
That's all I can say here. Email me for the details.
If you decide to use it, be careful of the stairway on the south side of the garage. I was mugged there at 9 am on a weekday once by someone hiding behind a door with a broken lock on one of the landings.
: ) Elias
Are you looking to park your car and leave it for 2 weeks, or to use the car once in a while during that period?
Where are you coming in from?
CG
Leave car in Virginia, take Acela to New York.
Leave your car at home and take either Metro or VRE to Washington.
--Mark
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Yes and the new trains will actually be small personal pods running on a 12 foot wide concrete monorail :-)
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02092004.shtml#Senate
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Heh, I love how even on the national level and within the same party we don't want to work with NYC.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02092004.shtml#Jersey
If it happens, that's good - it benefits the NEC rail network a lot, and helps both New York and New Jersey.
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Well I guess underfunding is better than no funding. Sigh, looks like another Gunn / Congress / Bush battle. Yet another reason to get this automative puppet out of office.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02092004.shtml#Bush
Isn't this insane folks. We are spending billions each month in those wars and now it looks like there's little money for anything else. There's not even money for the HIGHWAYS!
These same lawmakers are dreaming if they think building more highways will relieve traffic. It's just a jobs program and that's about it.
So now we know Amtrak definitely won't get the money it needs. Man they should of had a faster & more efficient system by now, this is getting ridiculous. The way it looks, they're trying to run Amtrak into the ground.
Now if only Clark will get nominated.
Good one. We could rename Amtrack, "The Railway express to MARS"! I bet we'll get millions of free money!
I also just read an article yesterday documenting how if you sign up with Halliburton to go to Iraq, after a years contract, they give you about 100grand. Who wants to sign up with me?
*I-2 (Interstate 2) A proposal of Paul Weyrich and the Free Congress Foundation to build a second US rail system, dedicated to high speed passenger traffic. NICE!
too bad it doesn't seem to mean anything, as who get's elected to the higher offices seem to be who puts the most commercials on tv.
Hopefully whoever the next new adminstration will be will see the light and finally start adequite funding.
Hopefully whoever the next new adminstration will be will see the light and finally start adequite funding.
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Hmm, I don't see how Amtrak can cut a service that has already been cut. The Federal, Boston LSL, Three Rivers and a number of other sleeping car services have ALREADY been cut and have been for some weeks now. Come on guys, nice try but you can only save money the first time you cut something. Shame, the slepers usually go filled up and are a grest revenue source.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02092004.shtml#Some
Doubters Still Question Houston Light Rail
Can you beleive that? I suppose if SEPTA can, as they as, ignore reality and believe the Schuykill Valley Metro will fly, Houston's naysayers can still ignore reality and believe this smash-hit of a rail line will flop any day now.
Mark
Mark
They love it when I go apartment hunting now, even with friends, I always get asked if i'm a secret shopper.
Mark
Mark
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You see, if Brother Bush allows hi-speed rail his masters at the automative lobby will cone abd break his knees,
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02092004.shtml#Road
People, give it up! You spent over a billion to add a lane on I-4, and you're spending a billion in Tampa alone to "improve speeds by 10mph". Not to mention 700mil to increase water supplies to bring in more outsiders, etc etc. I can go on all day. But that more than paid for the system!!
And why do they always ignore we get MORE tourists visiting the state than residents! Over 40million at least(i think more). Most of them are international and europeans, who besides they shouldn't be on the road if they don't want(ever see somoene drive on the wrong side?), they flat out don't usually enjoy the experience, and the costs.
And what else makes me p-o'd, it's always some rep form out in the boondocks where I don't even see any cars on the road. And Feeney, I used to live a district or two south of him. He's a reelected joke. A Republican from suburbian philly who get's all of his assistants from the local Hooters restaurant(i'd probably do the same).
I curse the state everyday that I can't get around and have no mobility, these people got some balls.
developer charges state too much for undevelopable land
my favoriteexcerpt:
"Florida's top private landowner has been developing or selling parts of its Delaware-sized holdings — but has kept secret much of what it wants to do."
Then there's the people who lost all their homes last week, because a contractor built a small subdivision without a permit, and not being safe. Lost their house, credit, and mortage, and a previously court ordered charge to the residents to start a pool to fix it. Real nice. But tha'ts just greed.
And the people are either in cahoots with the companies, or are really lacking in IQ, so you do you vote for?
*************************************************************************
I think that this goes to show that the problem isn't necessarily Amtrak's, but various state government's failure to recognize the value of rail transport for anything else buy property tax revenue.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02092004.shtml#As
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BOOOOOOO ACMU's 4 Ever!!!!!!! Anybody up for organizing an ACMU trip for mid March?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02092004.shtml#MTAexpedites
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It looks like SEPTA finally got called on their stalling tactic that they were trying to pass off as a plan. Hopefully this will mean the end of the largest pile of bullshit on the other side of The Doggle
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02092004.shtml#SEPTA
Mark
Electrification and double tracking and all that stuff can come later, lets just get a train running NOW!
Just so you know, wdobner, double tracking later creates plenty of headaches. Just look at the Baltimore light rail system.
Mark
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Oh god, what the hell is CSX smoking. Boston Line traffic is light to moderate and the Wooster to Boston segment is all double tracked. Maybe if they extended the cab signaling from Framingham to Boston that would make a differance. Sheesh, the traffic is no more than that on the Trenton Line which CSX shares with SEPTA who runs service all day on headways of 30 to 60 minutes.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02092004.shtml#MBTA
Now if Amtrak could just lower NYP-BOS fares just a bit...
*************************************************************************
They should try making some illegal left turns. I heard that the Metro can make a real "impact" on those that do.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02092004.shtml#Doubters
I guess a new highway would pay itself off?
These people like Bettercourt are insane.
Or, "WHATS THE POINT?"
Then others are fiscal conservatives who balk at government spending. Nothing wrong with that, as I'm all for fiscal responsibility. But it's kind of silly since rail costs are nothing to what we spend on highways. It should save a government money if done properly and coupled with sound urban planning.
Others I think are just products of our car-centered culture, who having lived their whole lives in a world without rail transit, have never experienced just how valuable it really is.
There are more reasons, I'm sure, but I can't think of them at the moment.
Mark
Sarasota had an organization called "A Bridge Too High". Usual lawsuits, etc. But when construction started finally on a high-fixed-span bridge, guess what? They went away! Actually they worked on trying to get some good landscaping and switched sides.
For the costs of operating a rail line, there's plenty of wasteful spending in the budgets that I just know all of those people will find. Most likely items that cost more. I think these are lazy fiscal conservatives that ignore everything else that they dont' see.
All this talk about fiscal conservatives is nonsence. There are no fiscal conservatives in Washington and the current one is spending BILLIONS while runing record deficits not seen in 30 years!
Mark
*************************************************************************
Unfortunately there are still plenty left to screw things up.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02092004.shtml#CSX
Weird, isn't it?
If you can't get on, I'll be posting a screenshot on the SubwaySpot Gallery for you.
Also, who wants to join me?
We have to find out the first D leaving Bedford Park, not 205th st. I am going up there by the end of this week to find out anything for us.
In service, carrying passengers? I doubt it.
There will be a pre pick supplement to help with sign changes and equipment swaps with the D/W.Get your cameras because there will be a few W's who make the trip to 205 for sign changes to become D's.
The signs can't be changed at Coney Island? And if all the signs are changed in the Bronx, there won't be any D's left in Brooklyn to cover the northbound runs.
Heres a question when was the last time a slant r40 ran on the concourse?
In revenue service? July 21, 2001, around 11pm, if the lower level at 145th counts. Two SubTalkers later boarded that B train, one at 59th and one at Broadway-Lafayette.
Because saturday and sunday there will be few cityhall R40's roaming.
I wouldn't be surprised if a few R-40 W trains (which do exist on weekends) were sent up to 205th as D trains to prepare for the B Monday morning. Other than that, you're talking light equipment moves, which happen all the time.
Also there will be supplement on the N saturday the 21st in which it will be going to 57and 7 then extended to Astoria.
I find this hard to believe. Late Saturday night and early Sunday morning, northbound W's will be resigned as N's as they arrive in Astoria. Why bother extending the N only to be left with a stack of W trains that have to run light back to Brooklyn?
Nah, I don't think it will, IMHO.
i think the rest of them were pretty straight forward, no other questions really stuck out in my mind. i think the section with the scheduling asking about the headway and how long a round trip takes will be the deathblow for a lot of the idiots that took the test. i took it at james madison and of all the dcas tests i've taken (track worker, cop, firefighter, toll booth collector) it was definitely the most packed by far.
i really hope i aced that test like i think i did. i hate the whole waiting in suspense forever thing. i had read in the chief a few months ago that they were hiring i think 300 or 400 people a year for 4 years off of this list and that the first batch would be hired this september. i hope this is the case.
tim
i ramble, i know.
I think it said so on the front of the booklet.
Did it give a length of time for which the test was not to be discussed?
#2 - show up as scheduled (and next time be a more pro-active parent and find out about these things sooner).
(2) OUTDOORS: FLAGS (at least 23" X 29" in dimension) of the prescribed color must be used between sunrise and sunset, EXCEPT that, when flags or hand signals cannot be plainly seen, lighted lanterns in addition to flags must be used. LIGHTED LANTERNS of the prescribed color and type must be used between sunset and sunrise.
1. The second flag and lantern question was meant to fool you a bit. Tunnels do not take in sunlight so lanterns must be used in tunnels at all times.
2. You are right, 2 hours is not considered advance notice and your daughters' play is not considered an emergency either so "show up as scheduled" is correct.
You do not ramble on this board, no need to go there (we are here to help) and I'm sorry for what I said earlier. I don't want anything to jepoardize the integrity of the exam.
my favorite question was about someone asking you a question but not speaking any english. one of the choices for the answer was something like "say the answer back loudly and imitate their accent". for some reason i pictured myself yelling GO DOWNSTAIRS AND TAKE THE A! with a really bad russian accent.
as you can see i am easily amused.
"Which train line has a station closest to Hunter College?"
I go to Hunter College. XD
What do you call the F train in Queens?
The R32 makes up all "E" service, all the time. During nights, "A" trains use R32/38 equipment.
I agree with your assessment, to a point. But old equipment runs almost all of the time, except the R40 Slant cars.
I ride the F in Brooklyn mostly. I see R32s during the rush hour, less so at other times.
Oh? I always avoided the (F) in Brooklyn. I always walked the extra distance to DeKalb to catch the (QB) train.
: ) Elias
Who says that R40's will be at concourse yard?
Actually 10 B trains R-40S or R-40M will be in Concourse yard nightly and on weekends. It's doubtful that they'll see service on the D line under any circumstances except as baseball Specials.
So then, assuming that what you said is true then:
B-R40's
D-R68's from concourse yard.
Q-R68's from CI
W-R40's
N-R68A's
Is this reasonable?
There is no crime in hoping. :)
Never got a chance to see or ride them. Damn! That was either just before or during field shunting. Can you imagine riding it down CPW Exp before field shunting?
David
This was the only time that I would see R44s operating on the "C"-every car 100% signed up as "C".
They were very slow accelerating, but I have to admit, once they moved a little while, they kicked ass too. But they were no match for the R40s.
And yes, the R42s have operated on the "B" in the '90s as well. As a matter of fact, the TA would place anything that was available in Coney Island on the "B" as needed.
Kinda odd though, one time at about half past midnight, I caught a downtown B train at 57th St. WTF!
I know what you are talking about. Those were nothing but "F" trains. During that time (between 1988 and 1991), the "Q" was "SUPPOSE" to operate between 57th St and Bway-Lafayette from 9pm to 6am. In reality it did do this from 9pm until Midnight. After that, it was actually the "F" train that was operating from 57th St, thru Bway-Lafayette Ave to Coney Island. The TA even had the nerve to have side rollsigns that displayed "F/Q". Those were indeed R46s.
What I was talking about occured during 1993-the R46s operated on the regular 6th Ave-Brighton Exp "Q" route. In fact, it was during the winter-it was extremely cold and from what I understood from the ERA meeting I was attending, the TA was having a hard time charging the R46s in the unusually cold weather. So the TA came up with a plan to switch the R32s on the "E" (which was completely an indoor route) with the R46s on the "F". During this same time, a couple of R46s found their way on the "B" and the "Q" as well.
Huh?????? How can an R-46 sign display F/Q? Was this by any chance before the rollsigns were replaced with LCD's? If so, then how did it look - were they centered? Was it a slash with 2 letters in the bullet, like the (1/9) and (J/Z)? Did it have any text?
The funny thing about it, all of the signs in the stations, as well as on the maps printed during that time stated the "Q" was operating between 47-50th Sts and 57th St. between 1am and 5am, but in reality, they were indeed "F" trains.
Hopefully, if anybody has or knows anybody who has access to an R46 rollsign (the one just before GOH) they would see what I am talking about and post it here.
#3 West End Jeff
R46's run on 4 routes only:
F, G, R, V
The reason it runs on the G is obvious: 4 cars trains and weekend OPTO. This leaves the R and the V. It's been said here that the "E" uses R32's because of loading issues with R46's, which is a problem the locals DO NOT have. The F train operates more than 10% of R46 trainsets.
As for R68's, they are operated out of a different yard.
wayne
(5001-5003)+(5002-5004)(5005-5007)+(5006-5008)--they should just be
5001-5002-5003-5004+5005-5006-5007-5008
---------------------------------------------------------------------142 singles are they like A units or b units or will the y be C units on the 7
ex 1101-1102-1103-1104-1105+7840+1106-1107-1108-1109-1110
A B B B A C A B B B A
WILL THE 142 SINGLES BE LIKE THE 62A'S WITH RAILFAN WINDOWS
they are 4 car sets such as 5002, 5001, 5003, 5004
ABBBA-ABBBBA
with car numbers
7695-7694-7693-7692-7691-7715-7714-7713-7712-7717-7716
(Colors are used in this post to distinguish the sets.)
#7717 and 7716 are bigger because they are not regularly in the set with 7712~7715. #7711 is the regular with those four.
R-142A Supplemental Order: A supplemental order for 80 additional cars was awarded to Kawasaki in May 2003. Cars will be identical to the R-142A. Delivery expected to be complete by October, 2003.
New Technology: The R-142/R-142A cars contain much
of the new technology tested in the R-110A
Test Program. The cars are configured as "A" (cab) cars, with two
motor trucks, and "B" (no cab) cars, each with one motor truck; each
truck has two traction motors. They are designed to be linked in 5-car
semi-permanent sets in the order A-B-B-B-A but can be linked in 4, 6,
9, or 11 car sets.
What kind of question is that? So on the 32's, did you forget about the C or R, which are locals....
The R68's on the W (weekends) dont run express.
The R32's on the C dont run express
The R46's on the F dont make all local stops.
Oh, and they tagged up car 7238 (R142A).
????????????????
In any case, one thing that irritates me is that you risk getting the 'READ ERROR' message if you keep a card after a while. Even though the TA stresses using a card for as long as you can, the MC may not hold up swipe (or dip) after swipe (or dip).
The mta needs to begin to roll out proxy-card metrocard especially for subsciption users such as seniors and those who pay through payroll deductions. It would tremendousy increase the capacity of HEET's as well
Those folks with the "Premium Transit Chek" use them for a YEAR. Also students use their's for a long time. The kids realy test their durability ! (I've seen some realy used up student cards)
Anybody else have that happen?
Most questions were taken from a prior T/O exam so if you took the T/O exam, then you had more of the same on the C/R exam.
One question dealt with Lost and Found and was a bit tricky. It involved the scenario when a woman told you that she lost a bag you found earlier. Two possible answers were to "check the L&F property book" and "tell here to contact the L/P office". I chose the latter because the fine line was only personnel handling lost and found property were allowed to check the log book and this might lead to the other answers "tell her to describe the property", etc.
As for Question #12 I was LMAO at one of the answers.
The map was a breeze, I looked at it once and did the next questions #33 through #48 on what are the closest subway lines blindfolded.
Any other thoughts?
I understand where you might be coming from, one question I had was "...the closest subway line to Greenwich Village", and you had to pick the #1 train, even though the C is correct too (West 4th st)." But the neighborhood caption was nearest from the West Side IRT line for the #1 train was the correct choice because you had to answer the questions based on the map in the booklet and throw out any common sense.
Is one of your questions reagrding the next stop on the N/B #4 train after it leaves 86th st?
So, right or wrong, decisions are to be made SOLELY on what information is provided, and not on anything else. Good luck with the challenge, but folks responsible for civil service testing have little else to do when coming up with test questions, and "bulletproofing" the one proper answer. I've done that duty myself. Successful challenges are rare. :)
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
Not that upgraded traffic control is a bad thing....
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
As long as we get a slice, better that than having our government do it even more than it already does. At least in this case, you can't complain about losing American jobs.
How the hell should I (or anyone else here) know??? The article was very short on details. Why don't you research it and report back to us if you a so interested?
"How the hell should I (or anyone else here) know??? "
Well, at least we know you're not interested...:0)
Well, at least we know you're not interested.
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
This is the agancy that can't get buses to have proper signage, a disfuntional management that has seen buses throw wheels and a Clever Devices (ADA required annoucment system) thast has never worked properly , a Light Rail line that can't deal with crush loads like baseball and football games and an ill concieved plan that will cut the Light Rail at Camden and run bus bridges for the south end for 8 months while they double track the line. This from an agency that can't even get all the buses needed for rush hours out on the line.
The announcement from Governor Bobby is somewhat strange, given the pro-highway slant of his adminsitration.
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
P.S.: I hate Sony digital cameras!!!!!!!!
Dave
Class of 1996
til next time
til next time
til next time
I think I saw you on a few of the other MOD trips. I rode the June 7th, 28th, and 29th, August 24th, September 27th and 28th, and December 20th trips last year, and I chased the train on the August 23rd, December 21st and 22nd trips.
til next time
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
When it comes to megapixels, what do you suggest be a minimum for good quality?
(I just realized the typo.)
This Is What I Live For...
Dave
Which of the following high-speed sections of rail to you like the most?
NYCT 60th St Tube
PATH between Journal Sq and Harrison
NYCT (A) between Howard Beach and Broad Channel
NYCT (2/3) between 96 St and Times Sq
NYCT (2/3) between 14 St and Chambers St
NYCT Lex Exp (4/5) anywhere between Bowling Green and 125 St
NYCT 4 Av Exp in Brooklyn
PATH under the Hudson River in any of the 4 tubes
HBLR where it goes somewhat fast south of Liberty State Park
NYCT (L) wrong railing under the East River during a G.O.
Free polls from Pollhost.com
1. Airtrain along Van Wyck Expressway
AND
2. Brighton Express along anywhere between Propsect Park and Sheepshead Bay. (Look Ma! No timers.) :-)
I don't doubt the 60th st tube, not for a second, it's the fastest. I do have some reservations about the West Side IRT Express runs, timers on S/B side at Franklin St and N/B at Christopher St kill that part of the run. The Brighton express experiences no timers except when arriving at Brighton Beach Terminal.
When the (7) is cut back to Queensboro Plaza, which of the following would you rather do to get to Manhattan?
Take a shuttle bus to Manhattan, if one is offered
Do a free transfer to a normal bus line that goes into Manhattan, if such is available from the (7)
Transfer at Roosevelt Av for the IND
Transfer at Queensboro Plaza for the BMT
Take a taxi/car service to Manhattan
Walk to Manhattan
Just not go to Manhattan
Free polls from Pollhost.com
That's a good question.
OFF TOPIC discussion board
RailfanWindow.com Gallery of Photos
Have you yet paid at least $5 of your OWN money to ride AirTrain JFK?
YES
NO - I HAVE been to NYC since AirTrain JFK opened
NO - I've NOT been to NYC since AirTrain JFK opened
Free polls from Pollhost.com
Your probably got a defective card. Perhaps you could ask your school to give you a new one.
In the interim he has laid O gauge track across the mantel over his fireplace and displayed a mixed set in a four car train.
From left to right he has displayed a single car from each of four different MTH subway sets. First an R-36 in blue and white, next an R-21 in maroon, next an R-17 in silver and blue, and finally an R-17 in redbird colors. The four cars are coupled together. He told me that he had a fifth car, the R-17 rider car in yellow and black displayed, but did not think it looked right with the other four, so he removed it.
He has replaced all of the between car couplers with MTH dummy couplers. This really reduces the between car gap, and makes for a very prototypical looking 4 car train. He has hooked a transformer to the track so that the cars can be illuminated.
I was really amazed at how attractive these four different paint schemes looked in one train, although I guess that could never have actually happened in the NY Subways. This family spends a lot of time in their living room, so he can enjoy his hobby just by looking at his mantel.
It surely was an attractive display.
David
David
David
David
David
BTW: There are 11 Ds scheduled to go into service from the south on Saturdays.BUT there will only be 10 D trains layed up in Stillwell yard so the 11th train will be from the Coney Island fleet. So, it might be R-68s or R-68A, or R-40M or R-40S or even an R-32.
Well, I suspect that they will use *subway cars* on that line.
Probably B-Division cars, at that.
Elias
And here it was Elias that I thought they were going to run trolley cars, perhaps the trolleys left over from the Church Avenue line which recently discontinued trolley car service.
Instead, I predict there will be a fleet of Acela trainsets on the B line for Feb 23rd.
Not a chance. We are transfering two trainsets (220 cars) of Coalporters from the Powder Ridge division. They are only 50' long, but are as wide as other B-Division cars.
There's no doors on these cars. They pour people in at the top, and then tip the cars over to dump them out at the end of the line. But at least there will be no subway surfing on these cars.
LOL : ) Elias
D: R68/R68A's
F,R,M: Same
Is that it?
"A day in the life of a subway car
as it bounces to the beats of the life inside...
Outside, on the platform musicians perform
and pump the pulse through the veins of the city..."
Some of the musical numbers?:
The Redbird Sang a Song in my Heart
76th Street, to the tune of Brigadoon
Screech Bang Means I Love You
and my personal favorite...
My interest in the Traction Interests is nothing to my interest in you, with Tommy Tune singing and dancing as Mayor Hylan..
I was waiting for an "A" train about ten years ago and was standing at the queens bound end of the station (by the stairs to the mezz). I noticed four slight depressions in the tile wall that looked almost like a planned right of way. To amuse myself, I turned around and looked at the wall on the other track, almost expecting the same four cutouts on the other wall, and sure enough, they are on that side also. the funny thing is, they are not exactly across from each other, and the station columbs are on an angle at this location (unlike the uniformity of the other columbs in the station)as to suggest that this was a planned ROW. It is kind of an odd placement, seeing as the current tracks are at the same level and the current platforms are in the way, but it it there just the same.
Has anyone noticed this before? I stood there for years not noticing it, and now that I know it"s there, I can't "NOT" notice it!
And now, another mystery - why haven't they replaced the signs on the columns??????
(Houston can have light rail, LA can have light rail, LI can't)
What about Bloomfield, Bayonne, and Bergen County?
CG
Brentwood to Bonkonkoma?
...sounds like the LIRR.
Bethpage to Babylon to Bay Shore to Batchogue, eh Bellport?
...sounds like the LIRR....if the Mainline-Central-Montauk trains actually made some local stops.
However, just as an example, for people who live along or near Bloomfield Ave in Essex County who are travelling to Willowbrook Mall, Montclair, the Caldwells, Bloomfield or Newark -- namely from point A to point B along the Bloomfield Av corridor, there's NO excuse to not take the bus!!! ;-)
Like my friend who lives right off Bloomfield Av in Bloomfield and used to work at a restaurant right on Bloomfield Av in Montclair - she used to drive up there and would bitch and moan if for one reason or another her car wasn't roadworthy... DAMMIT, WALK A FEW HUNDRED FEET, GET ON THE 11, 28, OR 29 AND YOU'LL BE THERE IN THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME!!! More often than not, the time spent looking for parking will negate the time the bus spends making stops en route anyway.
Still, it would help if NJ Transit ran more frequent service along each individual BA route, ran later late-nite and earlier early-morning service, possibly even all-nite service along the 29 route.
True, but in terms of population density they're probably a rough equivalent to Nassau and maybe parts of Suffolk.
Hmmmm. I'd say some aspects of that conversation would be rather interesting to overhear.
I see only one hostile Long Islander in the thread.
Train>car>walk>bus
OR
Train>walk>car>bus
Too bad few of the replies on that other site really helps the discussion about using LI Bus.
I know they are intel (from crashed MVM).
--Mark
My question was why they were using PA-4 cars versus the older PA-1/2/3 cars. There is one "pre-PA" class car, a K class car, that was made into a work train vehicle and I saw it last week. However, I seem to remember reading here that all the "whole" K cars have been retired from work train service. Anyhow, so my point is that no, the reason the PA-4 was in work train service was not because of a lack of other cars to do the job. Maybe PATH doesn't mind using PA-4's in work train service. I just thought they might get dirty in work train service and why dirty up a nice shiny car?
The same is true of PA 1-2-3 cars in passenger service. Regardless of car type, they all would have to cleaned after a stint on work service.
There's one near Vanderveer Park on the Bay Ridge; it's green and has a "Do Not Hold Doors" sticker on the rear bumper.
http://www.subwayspot.com/gallery/MalbonePics/aac
In the absence of a dedicated work car, why not? The TA has work cars derived from the R62, but in a pinch, the passenger R62 could be used.
Bill "Newkirk"
Frank Hicks
The Vienna 'Transit Authority' arranged to have the car shipped to the Port of Dubrovnic in Yugoslavia and then had it shipped to Port Newark. From there it was moved to Central Park in NYC where it was on display for a day or two (?).
The Austrian Ambassador then made a formal presentation of the car to the 'American People' and expressed his country's thanks for the help that we gave in helping to rebuild their public transit and their country after WWII. I seem to remember being told that there was an Austrian OOMPAH Band at the presentation.
Branford was given two sets of uniforms from the Vienna Transit Authority - one a man's uniform and the other a woman's uniform. I remember seeing John & Joyce Aurelius wearing both uniforms while on Conductor/Operator duty at BERA.
I was told that the only expense to Branford was shipping the car from Central Park to East Haven.
Eventually, the car was changed back to its livery as it was when in service in NYC.
I imagine someone like Don Engel (at BERA) should be able to give more details and maybe correct any errors in this posting. I am sure that he would have been involved in some of the negotiations at that time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
trolley687@aol.com
Thanks, 8 >) ~ Sparky
Will try to contact you.
:0)
"Belgian rail commuters given free ride to cut chaos on the roads
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Brussels
(Filed: 31/01/2004)
Hundreds of thousands of Belgian rail commuters are to travel free in a radical scheme to cut road congestion.
After watching Britain make a hash of its railways for years, the government is launching a pilot scheme to cut the jams that paralyse the Brussels and Antwerp ring roads at rush hour.
A new pass will entitle civil servants and state employees to travel to work free in all Belgian cities from March 1. The scheme will be extended to private sector workers in stages.
If the project succeeds, ministers plan to eliminate fares for all passengers across the entire state-owned network, whether commuting or not.
Johan Vande Lanotte, the public enterprise minister, said the idea was not as crazy as it sounded because 60 per cent of money raised by Belgian railways from ticket sales was spent in printing, distributing and inspecting the tickets.
"Free commuting is just the first step, but our long-term vision is to go much further," he said. "We calculate that free travel would double or triple rail use. Clearing the traffic jams may be the best way we can cut carbon dioxide emissions to meet our Kyoto targets" - a reference to the global accord on pollution control.
Mr Lanotte dismissed Britain's faith in the free market for transport as "religion". He said: "You have a bad system and it will never work. Rail travel is not an economic activity; it has to do with the quality of life, getting to work."
Belgium can ill afford more subsidies for its bloated state services at a time when most of Europe is gaining an edge by cutting taxes. It has a tax burden of 46 per cent of GDP, the third highest in the OECD group of rich nations.
The country's Business Federation, whose members will be expected to offer 80 per cent of the costs for their employees, on a voluntary basis at first, have reacted with horror.
"We are totally opposed to this idea," Pieter Timmermans, the secretary-general, said. "There is no such thing as a free service. Somebody always has to foot the bill - and it is going to be us."
He fears an explosion in costs as workers demand free travel on city trams and the Brussels metro, which are not covered. He said business was being milked to prop up the "dinosaur railways".
By British standards, commuting in Belgium already seems enviably cheap. For example, the annual pass from the Brussels suburb of Genval, a brisk 25-minute journey, costs £320 a year, entailing a big subsidy. The crammed route from Sevenoaks to London Bridge, the same distance, costs £1,700.
While Belgium's faintly ramshackle trains fill up at peak times, it is rare not to find a seat. Wildcat strikes are the biggest irritant.
The Dutch-speaking province of Flanders has pioneered the move towards free travel over the past five years. The city of Hasselt runs free buses for everybody and pensioners no longer need tickets on Flemish trains. The experiments have made Steve Staevarts, the Flemish socialist leader, the pin-up boy of Belgian politics.
Eyeing his success nervously, the country's dominant free-market Liberals have jumped sheepishly on the bandwagon. It may be an early sign that Europe's decade-long tendency towards liberalisation is coming to an end."
I don't know about the second part of your question, though.
The photo of the staircase, thats closed now or is it still open? I know parts of the platform arent there anymore, and that staircase seems really old making it look disused.
Any other photos? I know I found some here, but there not too much of a view to the actuall station.
They currently have about a three-quarter inch stack of the WHALE poster...
which is as big a stack as it was last time I visited some months ago....
Here's hoping TM'll get a clue---> it's the R17 REDBIRD poster we all want!
Pssst... if you stand by the postcard *coughcough* rack while an employee walks back
through the *coughcough* curtain, you can get a *coughcough*LUSCIOUS glimpse of the new *coughcough* "exhibit" they're putting up...
BOY! ARE WE IN FOR A *coughcough* NOSTALGIC TREAT THIS *coughcough* SPRING!!!!!!!!
1Spy9
I saw a "piece" of it... but im not jumping to conclusions now.
The Mrs. and I will be attending the preview reception. >GG<
8 >) ~ Sparky
(maybe not put UP... but there sure were some nice looking relics
sitting in a rolling cart...)
Those of you who remember the "it's out of print.... come back tomorrow to
see if we have any in stock" pitch I got last time I inquired of the
poster..... you know this is cause (for shock) and 1celebrating9.
Robert
Robert
more like spinning wheels during the recent ice because Jamaica Yard is too cheap to spend extra on snow removal/sweepers/RAT. Also R46 brakes and snow/ice do not mix well.
Flats usually occur with locked wheels during braking on wet or greasy rail.
Spinning usually occurs on axles, due to hard acceleration or an electrical problem that may or may not appear constantly.
You can add them to a log regarding the specific problem you're looking at.
I commend you, by the way, for paying attention to this.
Robert
Also, as a now regular daily rider of the G again, I wish the hell the MTA would fix the spongy craters at the doorways!!
Back before this final phase of Manhattan Bridge madness began, when the B ran on the West End, did it not stop at DeKalb on weekends even though the D was also running?
I believe that was so which means the bs being given out by NYC Transit that it would be difficult for the D to stop at DeKalb when the B is not running is simply just that.
Back in the 80's when the Bridge was fully open, EVERYTHING stopped at DeKalb except for rush hour. This means that the B and N ran to DeKalb even during middays.
Of course, I wouldn't go as far as saying that the decision is "imbecilic".
The only reason I can think of for this decision is that the D would have to go through the wheel detectors going into Pacific to get from DeKalb back over to the express track. The N does that today though, and it isn't considered a problem. Its a slow stretch anyway.
If this is truly the disaster you think it is, the MTA will get a lot of complaints, and will change the D's routing so it does stop there.
Recall that when Archer Av opened, the F was sent express to 179 St until a lot of complaints by riders led the MTA to change the F's service pattern to local east of Forest Hills.
So if this is a big deal, the situation will ultimately be addressed. And look at the upside: you'll be able to use this "experiment" to see if DeKalb really needs the D or not. If it does, this wasn't the end of the world (not like they are ripping the tracks out).
The important thing right now is that the bridge is coming back. Whatever you might think of the proposed service plan, it's less inconvenient than having no 6th Av service on the bridge at all.
Routes got nothing to do with tracks; but yes, that's what we're saying.
Northbound is not so much of a problem, so perhaps a good compromise would be to have it stop at DeKalb northbound, so people coming from the Brighton would have the easier transfer. Sounthbound, when the people are coming back home, they would just enter at the nearest Bway station, since the lines run closer together in Mahnattan.
Also what would have helped, expecially forpeople coming from uptow, and especially when the 6th Ave. side was cloased all this time, was a direct stairway at 34th from platform to platform. On 6th Av., you can even see in the ceiling where the Bway line crosses at an angle, and at a point neart the middle of the station (in the open areas, yet), the structures are aligned. But they had just redone the whole complex, and didn't think of that, so they weren't going to start doing all this heavy work again.
On the Midnights the D will be local up 4th Ave and stopp at DeKalb. There is no switch to go from the Local track to the Bypass after Pacific Street.
As for the Weekends the D will run express on 4th Ave and switch to the local track after Pacific Street.
This will also be the same on the Brooklyn Bound trains.
Robert
Robert
Not according to the new service plan. According to it the D will skip Dekalb at all times except late nights.
Do you know of a new alteration to the 2/22 plan?
Both the B and N bypassed Dekalb only during rush hours before the major reroutes began in 4/86. Since the N/R swap of 1987 the West End train running via bridge has skipped Dekalb 24/7.
Did it? I thought that the B stopped at Dekalb in the late evenings & nights after it replaced the F going to 21 St/Queensbridge. Too bad I don't have an old B train schedule.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/10/nyregion/10nyc.html
In light of this, maybe the TA could come up with a better way for handling the summons issued. For example: get a form from the S/A, and fill it out. The person must include their address, phone number, the usual information, as well as the serial number from the back of the card. The person must also include a copy of the ticket. TAB checks the information. If the card was valid at the time, the summons is thrown out the window. Written judgement is sent back to the person issued.
Sure, loopholes could be found in this system; however I don't think the process would be any different than if you appeared if person to appeal the summons, therefore its unlikely anyone would have a better chance of getting over on the TA.
It is an offense to jump the turnstile, even when you have a valide unlimited ride MetroCard. Probably something needs to be done to exempt people who get stuck in the situation the article described.
There was a long thread on Rider Diaries last year about transit cops who issue summonses in situations where customers have technically violated the regulations, but common sense says the summons wasn't justified. For instance, it is a violation to occupy more than one seat. When the train is empty, have you ever put your briefcase down on the seat next to you? If so, you're technically breaking the law, and cops with nothing better to do have been known to issue summonses in this situation.
The argument on that thread was about whether cops should follow the letter or the spirit of the law. I'm a "spirit" guy myself, but some people say that the cops should follow the law as written, and if you don't like it, your quarrel is with the legislature or MTA management.
Or write a letter and lose 37¢
David
Or, at another station, a mugger is plying his "trade."
At one station, I got the dreaded, "Please swipe again." Then the even worse, "Swipe again here." And finally, "JUST USED."
So I went over to the Station Agent, and explained what happened. She read my card, and then told me I'd have to wait 18 minutes because I had just used the card. I explained AGAIN that I swiped it here (and she should know that because her computer said so); she told me I must have let someone else in. It was a quiet time/station, and no one else was even around!
There's got to be a better way.
The S/A does have the right of refusal if the card shows abuse (two station entries within a half hour without a return swipe at a different station or bus more than once instance is a valid reason.)
You should've reported the S/A to the proper NYCT channels if she falsely accused you of improper use of the Unlimited Ride Card. About 99% of all station agents will give you the benefit of the doubt, after checking the card on their computer, and let you in.
I was thinking earlier today that we should find out what foreign object or combination of objects, when swiped through the reader, would clean the reader and then allow MetroCards to be used there again. If we figure this out, we could arm ourselves with such object(s) to be used whenever necessary.
Mark
What do you mean?
--Mark
Just a little alcohol on a gauze would do it. Affix a small strip of gause to the opposite edge of your metrocard. Give it an 'upsidedown' swipe to clean the slot, and then turn it and swipe it correctly.
Even if they were watching you, they'd never catch on to the fact that you just cleaned the heads.
Elias
Some turnstiles don't seem to work in wet weather either.
Of course, there are some turnstiles that NEVER seem to work for any kind of Metrocard, such as the ones away from the booth at 57th/6th. Many of the unmanned high-wheel turnstiles at Union Square fall into this category as well. I can't help but think how the sight of someone repeatedly swiping their card in a remote area would be extremely attractive to muggers.
When this happens, I bring it to the S/A. With one exception, they would run the card through and then buzz me in. The exception occurred on Columbus Day at Delancey/Essex. The S/A wouldn't examine my card or let me in, steadfastly saying I would have to wait the eighteen minutes. So to prove her wrong, I waited twenty minutes. At the end of those twenty minutes, the turnstile still didn't work and the S/A still wouldn't let me in. So I walked to East Broadway and was able to swipe my card.
(During that time, however, this S/A DID allow entrance to several passengers who reported the same sequence of events as had befallen me. I hate to contemplate the possibility that these passengers were accorded entrance because they happened to be the same gender and/or race at the S/A!!)
The next day I replaced my card at the Municipal Building and filed a written complaint at 370 Jay (omitting the elements of the above parenthesized paragraph, of course). I had been able to jot down the booth number, but was unable to record the S/A's badge number because her badge WASN'T DISPLAYED. I made prominent note of this in my complaint. A few weeks later I received a letter full of gobbledegook about 'turnstile reader failure' and 'card memory'- but no mention of misconduct or culpability on the part of the S/A.
So it seems like the S/A will often pick and choose who to let in and who not to not because of regulations or circumstances, but on his or her personal discretion. Guess if you hide your badge you can get away with it!
I would ask her to display her badge. If she would then fail to do so, I would get a police officer, and or make a photograph of her, along with the time and the booth number for my complaint.
Elias
So can they look in the computer and see every swipe on the unlimited card since it was activated? To track usage patterns?
Swiped my employee pass several times as prompted till I got "JUST USED". Went to the S/A (who was doing other things not job-related), and she told me "You swiped someone else in, and I didn't see you." Uh, huh because you weren't paying attention. I'd understand if she were doing job related duties. Anyway, she accused me of letting someone else in using my pass, which pissed me off.
Asked for he name and pass and she said "I don't have to give it to you if I don't want to. Come back in 18 minutes." Bullsh!t.
Hopefully, the Times article and repeated complaints to MTA will help.
You know, if you paid a phone company $70 for advance service, and then the phone company said no, you can't use the phone now, you would complain. If the phone company did this repeatedly, and enough people complained, it would end up in court, and most likely there would be some lawsuit about deceptive business practices.
Why is the MTA allowed to do this same thing? They sell you a card, which involves "paying the fare", and then write a ticket for fare evasion? You kept your end of the bargain, but by not maintaining the electronic turnstiles they did not.
What an irresponsible comment to make.
Isaac
Mark
The R-46 does not really have a "band." The entire side of the car is stainless steel. The "band" was originally painted blue like the R-44's band.
OFF TOPIC discussion board
Isaac
Isaac
In terms of cost and man-hours, it makes sense to leave the cars the way they are now. However, for some reason they decided to paint all the R-46 ends silver. I think it is ugly. Not taking anything else into account, I would like to see the R-44's and R-46's painted back up in their as-delivered schemes. Same goes for the R-32, R-38, and PATH PA-1/2/3 cars.
OFF TOPIC discussion board
RailfanWindow.com Gallery of Photos
Yes, why not? The R44 sported the first "corporate look" and was nicely done, livery-wise. The Brightliners had blue doors, if I recall correctly. Very pretty schemes. Even the two-tone blue M should be brought back...
I'm not familiar with older PATH paint schemes, but I'll go along with your opinion on them. I'm sure they were handsome.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?24774
OFF TOPIC discussion board for RAILFANS
RailfanWindow.com Gallery of Photos
Isaac
OFF TOPIC discussion board for RAILFANS
RailfanWindow.com Gallery of Photos
David
Why would you think that? This wonderful website very clearly lists who made each of those car types.
What would be the (dis)advantages of such a rerouting? Any comments? Oh, and this is not meant to be yet another discussion on the exact route option of AirTrain and the (dis)advantages each option would incorporate! ;-)
It should be noted that many going to Midtown prefer the 8th Avenue line to the 6th Avenue line as well. All those twists, turns and extra stops really slow things down on the F. Finally, assuming people from the suburbs would get priority (and why assume otherwise) there would be more disruption in the event of the need for a reroute.
The Montigue Tunnel could be used IF the link were beyond the last station in Brooklyn. Since two lines separate before the first station in Manhattan, dwell time would not be a constraint on the capacity, and you could probably run 18 tph on the trackage in between, at least for an hour or so. But as was said, what if the Manny B went down again?
So there would be no subway service across 42nd Street except the current Shuttle?
Extend shuttle trains/platforms to/for five car trainsets.
The only advantage is the dubious proposition that LIRR/Airport riders are more important than A/C subway riders. This doesn't hold up under scrutiny, because there are far more A/C riders than any LIRR/Airport service could ever reasonably hope to attract.
Also, rerouting the C to the Rutgers tunnel would foreclose the possibility of a Culver express.
All the passengers have an opportunity to transfer to the 6th Ave Line at Jay St. They dont'. In fact there's a net increase in the opposite direction from the D to the A/C.
1 - The A/C stops in Lower Manhattan
2 - The A/C transfers to both sides of the IRT, something the F doesn't do easily.
WOW! I thought I was the only person who notice that. By the way, Broadway Nassau also looses a large bulk of it passengers (probably most are heading to the #4).. so that explains it.
N Broadway
Merging conflicts at West 4 would tie up the C, E, F and V, in both directions.
NB A trains would be plugged by C's waiting to crossover at Jay, or NB F's would be waiting if C's got priority.
Jay would turn into Queens Plaza, and West 4th would just be a mess.
That's more a function of TA managerial skills than a physical problem.
The TA should schedule trains and monitor their progress, with a precision and accuracy required to avoid merging conflicts.
Suppose it takes 1 minute for a train to approach, pass through and clear an interlocking, then how far off schedule can individual trains be in order to guarantee there are no merging conflicts for a given headway?
Suppose the headway were 2 minutes (30 tph), then assuming both the leader and follower are on time there is a 1 minute buffer between when the leader clears the interlocking and when the follower approaches it. Therefore if both the leader and the follower are within 30 seconds of schedule, there will never be any merging conflicts. Similarly the figure for 24 tph operation is 45 seconds and the figure for 40 tph is 15 seconds.
TA schedules are written to a precision of 30 seconds. Such precision is not adequate to guarantee no merging confilcts at evan 24 tph. The question of midcourse corrections has not even been addressed. Clearly, more than 1 or two stations with holding lights are required to prevent trains from getting more than 30 seconds off schedule along a route.
The TA's usual response has been to blame the public for their ineptitude. The TA appears to assume that if trains are released from their terminals at regular intervals (which they are not), then they will maintain their such regularity without any further intervention. The real world is not so simple and it isn't the public that is to blame.
Suppose it takes 1 minute for a train to approach, pass through and clear an interlocking, then how far off schedule can individual trains be in order to guarantee there are no merging conflicts for a given headway?
Suppose the headway were 2 minutes (30 tph), then assuming both the leader and follower are on time there is a 1 minute buffer between when the leader clears the interlocking and when the follower approaches it. Therefore if both the leader and the follower are within 30 seconds of schedule, there will never be any merging conflicts. Similarly the figure for 24 tph operation is 45 seconds and the figure for 40 tph is 15 seconds.
TA schedules are written to a precision of 30 seconds. Such precision is not adequate to guarantee no merging confilcts at evan 24 tph. The question of midcourse corrections has not even been addressed. Clearly, more than 1 or two stations with holding lights are required to prevent trains from getting more than 30 seconds off schedule along a route.
The TA's usual response has been to blame the public for their ineptitude. The TA appears to assume that if trains are released from their terminals at regular intervals (which they are not), then they will maintain their such regularity without any further intervention. The real world is not so simple and it isn't the public that is to blame.
what about the human element such someone getting sick, hurt or god forbid, dies. trains ARE late as well because of the riding public. how many times have you seen people openly and deliberatly hold a subway door open at a terminal and not give a damn. i mean these are factors as well. as for headways and blaming the public try riding the L line during the rush hour when things go wrong how much more service you want on that line?
In his defense (and I have argued with him as well), he does admit that subways have their random aspects. However, he contends (and I agree with this) that NYCT management doesn't do anywhere nearly enough to minimize (not eliminate) the variability in the arrival of trains.
I'm not convinced that if management worked harder in insuring more uniform train arrivals that a line like the Lex would have the capacity he claims it would. But his arguments that management's allowing trains to be early makes the problem worse are very persuasive.
On the contrary, I've stated how much variablility can be tolerated to maintain a schedule without merging conflicts. The question is what actions does management take to keep trains within such margins. The answer is that they do not even try because they use hour glasses, when stopwatches are required.
Trains are going to vary from their theoretical schedules due to random variations that no amount of management discipline can eliminate.
Systems which take a proactive approach to reducing variability throughout a train's run have had success in operating more than 33% more trains per hour than the TA. The TA isn't even trying.
That is not an assumtion the TA makes. Your use of the word "appears" makes me think you have no concrete data.
You seem intimately familiar with it, so would you please describe the TA system for keeping trains on schedule, using details and citing examples from non-theoretical actual-life situations you've witnessed first-hand.
What you seem to be saying is that if the stations were closed to the public one day, and the trains were run as normal except with no passengers, then they still wouldn't run on time because of TA ineptitude. How can you say that the human factor doesn't enter into it? Occasionally there are trains running 8 to 10 minutes behind due to disorderly passengers!
The TA does not publish any concrete data regarding the scheduling of trains despite a requirement to do so. I gathered was most of my data by rigorous observations of actual operating conditions.
you seem to be saying is that if the stations were closed to the public one day, and the trains were run as normal except with no passengers, then they still wouldn't run on time because of TA ineptitude.
Yes I do. Here are two examples to demonstrate this. Trains operate on a normal weekday schedule on Good Friday. However, passenger load is much less because there usually is no school and because the Stock Exchanges are closed. I've spent several Good Fridays checking arrival and departure times at Grand Central on the Lex. One would think that if the majority of the TA's problems in keeping trains on schedule were due to passenger loads, then such problems would be proportionately less with lower passenger loads. Train arrivals are just as haphazard on Good Friday as during the full business days earlier in the week.
Another example is the TA's rendition of a Mack Sennett comedy when they tried to operate 30 tph on the Flushing Line on Saturday April 13, 2002. The line was loaded with TA managerial types. Despite there being far fewer passengers on a Saturday, they managed to operate the system far more sporadically than the days before. It culminated with two 15 minute gaps in local service to Manhattan. The problems in part were not due to passenger interference but rather with not having operating personnel in departing trains. It was quite a comedy of errors.
"Suppose the headway were 2 minutes (30 tph), then assuming both the leader and follower are on time there is a 1 minute buffer between when the leader clears the interlocking and when the follower approaches it. Therefore if both the leader and the follower are within 30 seconds of schedule, there will never be any merging conflicts. Similarly the figure for 24 tph operation is 45 seconds and the figure for 40 tph is 15 seconds. "
Then, in the next paragraph you continue:
"TA schedules are written to a precision of 30 seconds. Such precision is not adequate to guarantee no merging confilcts at evan 24 tph."
Did you not just say that Both trains could be 45 seconds off schedule? Then how could 30 second precision not work? I guess I'm not understanding this, I'd appreciate if you'd explain.
Either way, your argument seems to be that the TA screws things up by letting trains go early. I fail to see how this creates merging delays. If a train gets to an interlocking early, and another train, from another route is already occupying the interlocking, then there's no big deal, because if the train is forced to sit there, it's not being delayed. If it's blocking the train behind it, then that train must be early too (or it's really late, and is behind it because it merged with the line earlier), and it's not a big deal. Only when trains are late does this become an issue. Holding lights at EVERY station will not cure this.
Personally, I think that saying that merging the C and F (and then the E) lines would be a scheduling disaster is going overboard. Northbound at Jay st, you have 12 F tph. This gives approximately 4 minute windows to merge in C trains. At W4th Northbound, You have 15 "E" tph, or 3 minute windows. Same in the reverse direction. This means that you each train could be 1 1/2 mins 'off schedule', and this could still work.
Of course, this brings up another problem: The 6th av local tracks would have the C, F, and V trains from 2nd av to W4th st. While certainly do-able, that would cause huge delays. At that point, you'd be better taking your chances fitting in AIRtrains with A/C's in the Cranberry tunnel.
Assume trains A and B are supposed to leave from different terminals at the same time and are supposed to travel some distance to a merge point. Train A is supposed to arrive at the merge point 150 seconds before train B (24 tph). However, train A does not actually leave when it was supposed to; it leaves 29.99 seconds later. It is still an "on time" departure due to the TA's precision. Also instead of travelling at its normal pace from its departure to the merger point; it takes 29.99 seconds longer. Again, it is "on time" according to the TA's precision. Train A was supposed to arrive at the merge point at time t = T; it actually arrived at time t = T + 59.98 seconds. It will take 60 seconds for train A to clear the interlocking. Thus the interlocking will not be available for the next train until t = T + 119.98 seconds. Again note that A is "on time". Next assume train B left terminal 29.99 seconds earlier than it was supposed to and travelled 29.99 seconds less time than it was supposed to. Train B would have arrived at the merge point at t = T + 150 seconds, had it left exactly on time and travelled at its scheduled speed. Howerver, it actually arrived at the merge point 59.98 seconds earlier or t = T + 90.02 seconds. It will have to wait for 29.96 seconds for the interlocking to clear. Both trains were on time due to the lack of precision in measuring time.
Either way, your argument seems to be that the TA screws things up by letting trains go early
No, I'm saying that the TA creates merging delays by operating a schedule according to the minute hand, when it should be operating according to the second hand. This permits them to have trains that are running late and early trains arrive at merge points and still be "on time" according to their methodology.
If a train gets to an interlocking early, and another train, from another route is already occupying the interlocking, then there's no big deal, because if the train is forced to sit there,
Is that part of the TA mindset? Being stuck in the tunnels isn't important?
Personally, I think that saying that merging the C and F (and then the E) lines would be a scheduling disaster is going overboard. Northbound at Jay st, you have 12 F tph. This gives approximately 4 minute windows to merge in C trains. At W4th Northbound, You have 15 "E" tph, or 3 minute windows. Same in the reverse direction. This means that you each train could be 1 1/2 mins 'off schedule', and this could still work.
The easier way to eliminate merging conficts is to operate all trains merging trains on the same headway. This eliminates non-uniform headways or the need to hold trains in stations to avoid them. Differences in demand between different lines are taken care of by adjusting train lengths. The TA's policy of permanently linking cars in 1/2 train lengths makes the easier method impossible.
It's hard for me to believe that NYC subway trains could ever operate to-the-second during peak hours, or indeed at any time. The crew needs to allow exiting passengers to alight, and arriving passengers to board. The exact time this will take can't be forecasted to-the-second.
If the MTA's policy is that a train operating to within 29.99 seconds of its planned schedule is "on time," that sounds pretty good to me.
Differences in demand between different lines are taken care of by adjusting train lengths. The TA's policy of permanently linking cars in 1/2 train lengths makes the easier method impossible.
If train lengths were allowed to vary, which trains would you shorten?
That wouldn't be necessary - in Paris it works with everything timetabled to the nearest 5 seconds.
Is that part of the TA mindset? Being stuck in the tunnels isn't important?
If the train is early, pretty much. Had the train been on time, then the person would have been stuck for the same amount of time on a platform.
The easier way to eliminate merging conficts is to operate all trains merging trains on the same headway. This eliminates non-uniform headways or the need to hold trains in stations to avoid them. Differences in demand between different lines are taken care of by adjusting train lengths.
This is not so easy to do. How would you do this for the A/C trains? Doing this would require a headway greater then presently able on 2 tracks!
No.
No.
Its very easy to stand on the outside and empirically observe trains, but you aren't seeing the whole picture -not by a long shot. And you can't base any responsible theory on incomplete data.
I have a good job recommendation for you: TA traffic checker.
Are you suggesting that operating trains to within 30 seconds of their scheduled arrival at a merge point is not a sufficient condition to eliminate merging conflicts at 30 tph? It's based solely on the premise that two trains should not occupy the same space at the same time. I assume that most transit properties subscribe to that premise.
I did not discuss how to go about doing it. I would assume that questions of the practicality of methods to achieve such a goal would involve real world scenarios. However, I would submit that no amount of practical experience has much value, if one does not know what it is one is trying to achieve.
Be a TA traffic checker for 6 months, take careful notes of everything you see and do, and then you'll be posting with a hell of a lot more credibility.
What am I, a hammerhead? Nobody's faulting your math here.
It's based solely on the premise that two trains should not occupy the same space at the same time.
I could swear I saw two people occupying the same space once, on the Lex line during rush hour...
I did not discuss how to go about doing it.
You NEVER discuss how to go about doing it. That's the whole problem.
I would assume that questions of the practicality of methods to achieve such a goal would involve real world scenarios.
Are you a floating brain hooked up to electrodes?
...no amount of practical experience has much value, if one does not know what it is one is trying to achieve.
Well thanks for dropping that bombshell on us - so few people on this board would like to see the system run up to its potential. I presonally thought the goal was parking trains for good photo lighting.
Bauman wants everything scheduled to the second, so if anyhing goes wrong it locks for hours, because nothing would ever go wrong if TA managers were not a bunch of incompetent fools.
But in a system operated and used by human beings, you have to factor in some variations.
Bauman wants everything scheduled to the second, so if anyhing goes wrong it locks for hours,
Your thoughts are incorrect. I allow for the same amount of "recovery time" because I am not changing end-to-end running times. It's a question of when and how "recovery time" is applied.
Bauman wants everything scheduled to the second, so if anyhing goes wrong it locks for hours, because nothing would ever go wrong if TA managers were not a bunch of incompetent fools.
But in a system operated and used by human beings, you have to factor in some variations.
Just remember that even if Stephen's arguments aren't convincing doesn't mean that they're completely wrong.
He hasn't convinced many (any?) Subtalkers that far higher tph levels would be feasible if his suggestions were implemented.
But that doesn't make his suggestions bad ideas. Perhaps if they were implemented part of the desired tph increases would be achieved.
I'm sure NYCT managers know of Stephen's suggestions. There are plenty of reasons why they might not have implemented them other than that the suggestions are unworkable or that the managers are fools. One possibility is that to run more tph, you need more trains, and NYCT doesn't have them.
Another possibility is that to demand that T/Os operate as closely as they can to the schedule requires some form of discipline for those that choose not to (say, because they'd rather be ahead of schedule when possible and get a longer break at the end of their run). Such discipline is a labor relations issue.
Are agreed that one needs to operate trains to within 30 seconds of schedule to avoid merging conflicts @ 30 tph (15 seconds @ 40 tph, etc)?
Can one maintain trains to within such a tolerance, if one measures time to the nearest 30 seconds throughout its trip?
Are TA schedules written and communicated to the operating personnel using a time quantization finer than 30 seconds?
If the answers to these questions are: yes, no and no; then the TA's "practical operating experience" is one of encouraging rather than discouraging merging conflicts.
If you are agreed that one way to avoid merging conflicts is to operate trains is to operate them on schedule, then we we would be in a position to discuss how to operate trains more closely to schedule. I have proposed some scenarios in the past and would be happy to reiterate them for your benefit. And yes, other transit properties use this methodology with dramatic effect on increasing their system's potential vis-a-vis that demonstrated by the TA.
But you have consistently failed to show just how these proposals could be carried out in the New York (USA) environment.
Spend six months toiling as a volunteer in the trenches and in the control towers, and then you'll have some credibility.
The TA has chosen not to do this: their choice given the budget priorities.
Also, to be fair, Stephen has done his research here, standing on station platforms with a stopwatch. As for the comment that Stephen would learn from “toiling in the trenches”, that would give him more insight into how things are done now, not necessarily how they could be improved. To extend your analogy, the AirTrain architects and engineers should have spent a couple of months driving an airport bus before they could design a replacement rail system.
Maybe what Stephen could acquire, by being in dispatch, is some statistics about how often trains are delayed and what the common reasons are, which may be more information to bolster his position, or reveal some other problems preventing increased service frequencies.
True. And you make a good point. My thrust was more along the lines of "what do you do after you install the clocks?"
"Also, to be fair, Stephen has done his research here, standing on station platforms with a stopwatch."
All right, yes, that much is fair.
"As for the comment that Stephen would learn from “toiling in the trenches”, that would give him more insight into how things are done now, not necessarily how they could be improved."
False. Stephen would gain insight into both.
"To extend your analogy, the AirTrain architects and engineers should have spent a couple of months driving an airport bus before they could design a replacement rail system. "
They did that.
"Maybe what Stephen could acquire, by being in dispatch, is some statistics about how often trains are delayed and what the common reasons are, which may be more information to bolster his position, or reveal some other problems preventing increased service frequencies."
Yes, and present them in the context of what the TA is also facing legally.
True. And you make a good point. My thrust was more along the lines of “what do you do after you install the clocks?”
Good point. Let’s ask Stephen. He already has discussed how headways in merger situations need to be whole multiples of each other. Perhaps he can elaborate on how his ideas would work.
“As for the comment that Stephen would learn from ‘toiling in the trenches’, that would give him more insight into how things are done now, not necessarily how they could be improved."
False. Stephen would gain insight into both.
No, true. Please look at the qualifier necessarily. I think we agree that Stephen is at least a reasonably intelligent person. So while working the job would give him detailed insight into how the system currently operates, it might not give him ideas about improvement that are different from the ones he already has. Sometimes, it’s necessary to examine a system from the outside, a possibility you seem to discount. (This last statement is based on my interpretation of a number of your posts)
“To extend your analogy, the AirTrain architects and engineers should have spent a couple of months driving an airport bus before they could design a replacement rail system.”
They did that.
Really? Please tell me how you know this. I don’t have access to any of the EISs, so I can’t state this authoritiavely, though I will volunteer to scan the final version and sent it to Dave P to put on the site in the appropriate place.
I would hazard that a more likely scenario is that various people collected departure/arrival statistics at appropriate points in the extant bus system, and some others rode selected buses to acquire a qualitative view of the system, perhaps including interviewing the bus-driving staff. I would bet serious money that zero observers with CDLs were hired to drive the buses.
“Maybe what Stephen could acquire, by being in dispatch, is some statistics about how often trains are delayed and what the common reasons are, which may be more information to bolster his position, or reveal some other problems preventing increased service frequencies.”
Yes, and present them in the context of what the TA is also facing legally.
I’m intrigued by your last statement. What is the TA facing legally, that is relevant to this discussion? Stephen’s argument is that an increased service frequency is possible if the TA changes its timing standards and keeps trains to a more rigorous timetable. What legal obstacles are in the way?
One would not ignore them. They would be used by C/R's and T/O's as feedback to help them remain on schedule. They would permit small incremental corrections.
N.B. the varibility of passenger loading has been discussed. However, the accumulated variability between T/O's in simply stopping and starting within stations is enough to cause merging conflicts. I have not measured T/O variability between stations but I assume it may be at least as great as that exhibited within stations.
These would not be ordinary clocks so that the operating crew need memorize hundreds of different times for a normal shift. They would be designed so that the target time would be the same througout each run.
He already has discussed how headways in merger situations need to be whole multiples of each other. Perhaps he can elaborate on how his ideas would work.
Consider the problems involved with merging two services that operate at different headways. Suppose service E operates at 4 minute headways and service V operates at 6 minute headways. Suppose service E reached the merge point at: 0, 4, 8, 12,... and service V reached the merge point at: 2, 8, !!!!
Next consider merging two services with identical headways. The first service would reach the merge point at: 0, 4, 8, 12, ... and the second service would reach the merge point at: 2, 6, 10, 14,...
Mathematician G. H. Hardy was wrong -- number theory does have practical applications.
Given the complexity of the NYC subways, that sounds like a big challenge. The only way I can think to make this work is to change the way that the subway works where TOs tell the system what train they are and where they want to go at every diverge point to some central control system where a TO tells the system just once.
Of course the byproduct of such a system is the ability to install “Next Train Is Coming In…” indicators. Maybe as the system is converted to CBTC?
Actually, it's embarrasingly simple. The clocks are designed to keep trains on a schedule. The schedule should be drawn to avoid merging confilcts, unlike the example in my previous post.
Here are two flavors, that are in use today.
The Moscow variant is essentially a stopwatch that gets reset a train train leaving the station. The "first trains in the morning" have a list of departure times from each station and a time standard to measure current time. These first trains set the stopwatch. Following trains need only depart each station at the scheduled headway according to the station clock. This number may change when the train transitions from a branch to a trunk. However, it requires a minimum amount of numbers for the operating crew to memorize.
The Paris variant has clocks that are synchronized to a time stanadard at each station. The station clocks display a time that is offset from the actual time. This offset is the interval between the scheduled station departure time and the time that the train is scheduled to arrive at the merge point. This offset is added to the stations before the merge point and subtracted from stations after the merge point. Thus each display will be show exactly the same time for the scheduled departure.
This could quite easily be done (at least on the IRT), although some stations would require multiple clocks (or at least multiple aspects on the same clock). In fact, it could be made to work using the real departure time of the train if a sensor were mounted which could transmit to the station clock which terminal the train had started at and what merges/diverges had been made since. This would also allow accurate next train info.
Assume CED and RTO are happy with 300 foot car sets. What if the two merging services do not warrant identical headways?
What were your scheduled and actual arrival times at 51st St?
BTW, I'll accept precision to the nearest second, which is 30 times more precise than the TA uses. It is also more than adequate to meet the object of getting feedback of one's actual performance vis-a-vis a published schedule to within 30 or 15 seconds. Watching only the minute hand doesn't.
Assume CED and RTO are happy with 300 foot car sets. What if the two merging services do not warrant identical headways?
The purpose for having identical headways on branches is to eliminate intrinsic merging conflicts. The alternatives are non-uniform headways on the trunk section or holding a train at the merge point to force uniform headways. Each alternative has its drawbacks in operating efficiency.
Back in the days of single unit cars, train lengths could be adjusted in one car increments from 3 to 11 cars. The use of linkbars has made sizing train length to demand impractical.
Ok, let's rephrase the question. A downtown train arrives at Grand Central fifteen seconds late. Under existing TA methodology, this train would have been considered on time. Assume we've installed the clocks Stephen has been asking for, so now we know we're late. What then?
The answer is the same: what time did the train depart from the previous station compared to its scheduled departure.
I'm not trying to be cute. A train has to be 10 seconds late before it can be 15 seconds late. It has to be 5 seconds late before it can be 10 seconds late. It has to be 3 seconds late before it can be 5 seconds late, etc.
The point is to catch any deviation early, while it is small, so that a small correction can be made. A train crew can make up 3 to 5 seconds between stations without undue effort.
The point is not to ignore the schedule for 5 stations and suddenly discover that a train is 15 seconds off schedule. The point is to match the departure at each and every station as closely as possible to the scheduled departure.
So let's put you on the Lex in the AM rush. A man trying to get his traveling companion aboard holds the doors open holds up the train 15 seconds; then somebody else does the same thing. Now the train is 30seconds late. At the next station something similar happens. Now the train is close to a minute late.
Tis is very common: the delays are not 3-5 seconds each. They are substantially longer.
OK. So now tell us how you make up the time. Cancel the timers into the next station? Raise the speed limit? Turn off the Wheel Detectors?
Tis is very common: the delays are not 3-5 seconds each. They are substantially longer.
How do you know this? Did you take any measurements of dwell times within the various stations on the Lex during rush hour? Did you use your charm to convince various TA insiders to give you this information? Perhaps you would like to tell me what the average dwell time and standard deviation is for each of the stations along the Lex? You could then use such information to show that door holding that results in 15 or 30 second dwell time delays are "common".
I didn't have the data nor did I have the inclination to curry favor with some unnamed TA insider to get such data. I went out and compiled it myself. I did not think I needed practical railroading experience to determine when the doors open, when the train started to move again or how to operate a stopwatch. I still don't.
I went to the various Lex stations during the morning rush hours over a period of weeks. I clocked the arrival and departure times of every single train during the morning rush hour. I calculated the dwell times and their standard deviations among other statistics.
The notion that any appreciable delays could be attributed to door holders cannot be substantiated or even considered plausible according to my accumulated data. For the record the average dwell time is under 30 seconds at all but one station on the Lex. The standard deviation runs between 25% and 33% of the mean, depending on the station.
I am fully aware that a pathelogical example can be constructed that would defeat any procedure to reduce variablility including mine. However, I'm interested in practical real world solutions not academic thumb twiddling.
If you have similar real world data that refutes mine, I'd be interested to see it. However, I don't need your help in constructing counter-examples which bear little relevance to the real world.
The TA's average dewll time in the late 1980s, system-wide, was 20 seconds. I do not know what the SD was. If what you are saying is true, average dwell time between 1988 and 2004 has increased significantly (by close to 50%?) I do not know if variability has increased, because I do not know what the baseline was in 1988.
If the SD is .25 to .33, then the differences among dwell times are quite high.
"However, I'm interested in practical real world solutions not academic thumb twiddling."
Fine, then please reevaluate your own data. You are misinterpreting something here.
"If you have similar real world data that refutes mine, I'd be interested to see it."
Your own data appears to refute your conclusions, based on wht you've posted.
Just what was the logical progression that led you to this conclusion? I did not state any actual numbers in my post. I gave a single limit, which I stated that only 1 station exceeded. You really should be more careful about making misstatements that can be so easily checked for accuracy.
Did the TA figure you are quoting (BTW, what's the source document) state if this was a system-wide average over all stations and an 24/7? Was it a rush hour sample on a single line or a reading at a single station? One really has to read all the footnotes before trying to compare data from different sources.
One complication that you might contemplate before trying to discredit my work, without analysis, is that the TA might be using a different definition of dwell time. According to the ESA-DEIS their definition for dwell time differs from that defined in TRB reports which is used by most researchers. BTW, the 20 second figure you quoted earlier is contradicted by the text in the ESA-DEIS, if it refers to rush hour Lex dwell times. The time periods of these two documents would be roughly comparable.
An additional complication is how to treat dwell times that are lengthened by a red signal ahead or holding lights. How did the TA handle them? I discarded those readings.
I started this analysis because somebody sent me some published data showing downtown express arrival and departure times that were taken at Grand Central between 8:36:48 am and 9:13:39 am on May 6, 1914. I thought it would be fun to see if things had changed. The average dwell time was 42.4 seconds with a sd of 8.7 seconds. The average headway was 103.9 seconds or 34.6 tph. My own readings on April 28, 2000 showed an average dwell time of 33.7 seconds with a sd of 9.4 seconds. The average headway was 145.8 seconds or 24.7 tph. Do you really think that uncontrolled dwell time is the cause for reduced service levels?
That's remarkable. Since 1914 dwell times fell while headways rose. Operating procedures changed, but what about clocks?
Have you gathered statistics on the West Side as well, in particular the local?
Anecdotally, I can tell you that quite often in the morning rush, the dwell time at at least one station between 86th and 42nd (most often 66th or 59th) exceeds a minute. Even when that doesn't happen, the average dwell time over all stations between 86th and 42nd is quite obviously over 30 seconds.
Of course, I'm more likely to be on a crowded train than on an empty train, so my anecdotes are of limited statistical interest.
By the time the train is that crowded, it's too late to solve the problem without installing razor blades on the doors. The best solution would be to ensure that it never gets that crowded to begin with, perhaps by bypassing some of the relatively underused stations near the north end of the line or even by short-turning an occasional northbound train, or perhaps by making judicious use of the gap trains stored at 137th and 103rd. (What gap trains, you may ask? Good question!) Possible semi-solutions might be switching an occasional express (preferably one that isn't too crowded) to the local track at 96th, allowing it to make up time in Brooklyn, or at the very least asking C/R's on expresses (at least the ones that aren't too crowded) to hold for connections with overcrowded locals.
Not that I'm hopeful. This takes place on a line that's crush loaded at 20 tph and has capacity for 30 tph, but NYCT is in the process of pushing through a $400 million project that will reduce capacity to 24 tph (if we believe the claims).
Only at South Ferry to evaluate some of the TA's claims regarding the present station. I posted the results some time ago.
I can tell you that quite often in the morning rush, the dwell time at at least one station between 86th and 42nd (most often 66th or 59th) exceeds a minute.
One really needs to be on the platform to measure dwell times. An abnormally long dwell time could be the result of a red signal ahead or holding lights.
the average dwell time over all stations between 86th and 42nd is quite obviously over 30 seconds.
The perception of time is relative, unless one is using a calibrated measuring device.
I'd be interested in seeing what you find north of Times Square. Granted, I could take these measurements as easily as you, but you're the expert.
One really needs to be on the platform to measure dwell times. An abnormally long dwell time could be the result of a red signal ahead or holding lights.
Even if it's been a ten-minute wait for the train (which has no merges with other lines and is scheduled for three-minute headways), and the station has no holding lights, and the C/R is repeatedly shouting over the PA, "Please step all the way into the middle of the car" and "Move away from the doors in the front of the train"?
The perception of time is relative, unless one is using a calibrated measuring device.
Does a $10 digital watch with a second hand count?
If I have room to pull out a pad of paper this morning, I'll take notes on my findings.
Note that I'm not disputing your findings on the East Side. I'm not making a statistical claim about the West Side, and even if I were, I wouldn't be surprised if the West Side IRT is worse off than the East Side, contrary to common wisdom.
Dwell time is defined as the interval between the instant the doors open until the train starts to move. It doesn't take any extensive training or expertise to recognize these times and record them. I'd get earplugs, if you want to keep your hearing in 40 years time.
I'd also record the absolute times rather than use a stopwatch to record the interval. This has nothing to do with the accuracy of the data. The absolute times will permit you to also calculate statistics regarding headways, tailways and waiting time between trains. The dwell time variances are going to be great. However much of that variance can be ascribed to the variance in waiting time. You'll want to document that to try to extrapolate what dwell time variance might be like, if an effort were made to control tailways or waiting time.
Does a $10 digital watch with a second hand count?
I'm using a $20 digital watch with a digital readout. I also set the watch according to an NIST standard prior to leaving the house.
I'm not making a statistical claim about the West Side, and even if I were, I wouldn't be surprised if the West Side IRT is worse off than the East Side, contrary to common wisdom.
There is some comparative data between the East and West Side Lines in the hub bound report. Do you think yourself capable of performing higher mathematics (division) to determine the average number of people per car during the peak hour for each of the lines? :-)
No, but it takes time, a commodity which I'm fairly short on these days and which I will be even shorter on in two weeks.
I'd get earplugs, if you want to keep your hearing in 40 years time.
You'd get earplugs if I want to keep my hearing? I do, so I'd appreciate if you bought earplugs!
I'd also record the absolute times rather than use a stopwatch to record the interval.
If I were serious about collecting the data, I would. For the time being I'll setlle for anecdotal evidence.
I'm using a $20 digital watch with a digital readout.
You overpaid.
I also set the watch according to an NIST standard prior to leaving the house.
There is some comparative data between the East and West Side Lines in the hub bound report. Do you think yourself capable of performing higher mathematics (division) to determine the average number of people per car during the peak hour for each of the lines? :-)
I have performed such a calculation for the afternoon rush, using older data, already. (Perhaps I'll ask my students to finish the job.)
But I'm not suggesting that West Side crowding is worse than East Side crowding. I'm suggesting that West Side local dwell times are perhaps worse than East Side local dwell times. (Why? I don't know. That would be a good question to investigate if my hypothesis is confirmed.)
In any case, I took down some numbers this morning on a ride from 86th to 23rd. The train was unusually empty, because it had met an express at 96th, so these numbers are atypical. I arrived at the station at approximately 8:30am and a train pulled in half a minute later, so I don't know how long the gap was. Dwell time at 86th was 27 seconds; at 79th, 28 seconds; at 72nd, 53 seconds (but the C/R reopened the doors as a 3 train pulled in); at 66th, 25 seconds; at 59th, 44 seconds; at 50th, 33 seconds; at 42nd, 57 seconds (but we waited briefly for the same 3 train we had met at 72nd); at 34th, 53 seconds; at 28th, 28 seconds; at 23rd, 24 seconds. Total trip time (doors open at 86th to doors open at 23rd) was 15 minutes and 11 seconds.
Capacity is constrained by the worst dwell time on the line, and nothing is worse than Grand Central on the Lex, with entering and exiting volume, especially on the express. At Penn at least they limited express-local transfers for that reason. Not at GCT.
If they had built the station with a entry on one side and exit on the other, it would have helped. As it is, we need Japanese-style pushers. Or the SAS.
And I'm not convinced that dwells at Grand Central are worse than at Times Square. Do you have statistics to back up your claim or is it just an educated guess? The southbound 1/9 at Times Square often goes from crush loaded to crush loaded even though at least 75% of the passengers get off.
Could you present the mathematical relationship between capacity and the worst dwell time on the line?
nothing [dwell time] is worse than Grand Central on the Lex
Is the dwell time at Grand Central sufficiently bad to prove that it is the reason service levels have been reduced from 32 tph to 26 tph?
Not that I'm hopeful. This takes place on a line that's crush loaded at 20 tph and has capacity for 30 tph, but NYCT is in the process of pushing through a $400 million project that will reduce capacity to 24 tph (if we believe the claims).
The 30tph capacity is questionable. The source, I believe, is a 1954 transit map on the JoeKorNer site. According to this map, the 7th Avenue local could accommodate 30tph in 1954 (although only 28tph were operating then). Why that line no longer operates 28-30tph is much disputed. Stephen Bauman says it's incompetence. Others say that modern safety standards have forced the trains to slow down.
Whatever the reason, the new SF terminal will not reduce capacity, because the MTA is building a two-track terminal that exactly mirrors the line's northern terminal at 242/VCP. Whatever 242/VCP can handle, the new terminal will be able to handle.
The problem with Jamaica Center is that it wasn't designed to be a temrinal. No one will have that illusion about South Ferry.
The current South Ferry terminal is not a terminal. It can handle at least 30 tph without a problem.
The 242nd Street terminal is already pretty much at capacity, at 20 tph. Capacity at the new South Ferry will exceed capacity at 242nd, since 242nd doesn't have tail tracks. However, you're forgetting one major detail: there are two additional north terminals available, at Dyckman and at 137th, either or both of which can be pressed into use to accomodate increased service on the line. (Current rules regarding relays limit the utility of such a terminal without the help of platform conductors, but rules have been known to change and platform conductors can be deployed.) There are no additional south terminals. If South Ferry is rebuilt to accomodate only 24 tph, then the West Side IRT local will never be able to carry more than 24 tph without borrowing trains from the express (which is also overcrowded) or rebulding the termnal yet again.
Besides, I'm skeptical about the 24 tph figure. If the new terminal ends up only being able to handle 16 tph, do we get our money and our old terminal back?
The half-platform increases dwell time, and limits capacity. It it were up to me, I'd just rehab the station to make it pretty and extend the platform and solve this problem, but live with the curve and the platform extenders. Higher operating costs for track and the extenders, that's true. But not higher enough to justify the rebuilt as proposed.
You said in your previous post that capacity is limited by the greatest dwell time on the line. Does the half-platform increase dwell time to more than any other dwell time on the line? Recall that five local stations and six express stations on the 1/9 have greater ridership than South Ferry. Are dwell times at South Ferry worse than at those eleven stations?
I agree with your conclusion, and I don't dispute your reasoning, but a more important reason is that physically reducing the capacity of a busy line, even without spending $400 million in the process, is about the worst thing a transit agency could possibly do.
Thoughts? Angry missives? Tomatoes?
N.B., if the fumigation policy were not necessary, then there could be additional uptown terminals at 96th, 137th and Dyckman (all used in the past). This would bring the capacity of the West Side local back up to 40 tph, with the existing loop terminal.
Even as far as the 70's, the most feared words to those who paid attention was the speaker blaring on the platform, "LAYUP to the YARD!" Even Darwin nominees got the clue. Today, we have a kinder, gentler "EmTeeYay, (not) going your way." They wouldn't be able to RENT the baetzim to run a railroad like they USED to. :(
And so the lawyers rule in an absence of common sense. The words, "LAST STOP, everybody OFF" has no meaning today. Perhaps we can correct this by enclosed terminus stations, with an enforced reality - when asked to get off the train, you get OFF the train and out the exits. After say 30 seconds or so, you release the dogs. :)
I think it was Ron who pointed out the problem of the TO walking through the train being subject to assault. If the TA feels this is a real risk, put a cop on board for the transfer. Once the train is back in service, the cop can walk to the other platform to wait for the next train. (And all of that doesn’t apply to Brooklyn Bridge, or Lex trains going round South Ferry, anyway, since no-one has to get out of a cab!)
How many switchmen do you assign to the terminal?
(Jeopardy countdown music up and swells, ends)
BUZZZZZZZzzzzzz.
The answer is TWO ... but one doesn't show because they have to do a run otherwise an ABD would have to be explained - conga line lost the inbound "leap ahead" ... whoops. A switchman doing a round trip. Penalty pay, whoops. Now as our favorite analyst of precision gapping would likely notice - you have ONE train on the inbound platform. To NOT lose the "change ends and fumigate" time, a switchman needs to get on the arse end of the inbound. THAT'S ONE.
You've got a switchman on the train coming OUT of the relay onto the southbound. THAT'S TWO.
You've got a switchman on the OTHER relay track waiting for his ball to drop. THAT'S THREE. Whoops! Railroad screwed up - who gets pinned? The SWITCHMAN. Now HE's busy getting yelled at while ANOTHER train needs to move. Nope. Whoops.
Back in MY day, the passengers feared *US* ... and we HAD cast iron to adjust ANY attitude we were confronted with. And hell, I grew up in the Bronx. Only thing *I* was afraid of was Jehosophat's Witlesses. :)
But yeah, if the rules held and "deployment" actually involved more "counting to *THREE*" on the part of management, or if we didn't have morons in charge, then a relay *could* be safely done as it was for nearly a century at 137th on the IRT Bway local ... and NOBODY would have to come out of a broom closet to relay ... but you'd need more switchpeople (former title, "switchMAN") so one could relay with EVERY train, and not "selected boxcars only" and it really wouldn't be a problem. Alas, removing people is the mindset of these "dammit! Can't we just have INDIA make a cellphone call and announce the next station and watch the webcam for dragging people with bad kharma? That *IS* the republican mentality. :(
Why would he want to walk through every car, opening and closing every single door? Why couldn't he just walk in the six foot?
Because that's his train, and he needs to know what's going on in it.
As I was just posting into the other subthread - on arnines, your conductor got OFF with knapsack over his shoulder "out the door" and would turn around, look to see if you got a switchman boarding, and if not, slap, slap - HE'S OFF on the next southbound that the MOTORMAN on the same train had to relay. That was the funky thing about the D on the north end - you DIDN'T get the same conductor on the same job number leaving BPB ... kinda made friendships tenuous, but you made a LOT of friends as well - "partners" usually get along, but if you get a moron up front, or a moron in the middle, you usually didn't trip with them again until the next day. Heh. You weren't with those long enough to just leave your "position" and go choke them. =)
But as far as needing to know what's "going on with it," a motorperson's job is to "love that ferrous wheel" and all that is descendent from the noble metal known as "iron" ... anything else that happens - "hey ... I drive the limo ... I love to work a LOW ride that cruises up and down the boulevard all day." That's IT. The OFFICIAL "captain of the BMT" is the CONDUCTOR. Conductors are the LEAD safety officer on the train, and can at the drop of a little bit of rope countermand ANY action by their submissive "operator-type-individual".
The (gag) "T/O" is NOT responsible for any of that. Conductor's off the train (policy) and they have to fend for themselves ... "strike a customer, DO TIME" seems to be the policy today - back when *I* worked for the TA, had to take OUT a "customer" once - policy was "let them strike first in front of witnesses and make SURE the cop responding backs up your story" ... meant (as Bill Cosby once said) "The BEATINGS shall NOW COMMENCE!" NOBODY screwed with us. That was then, wimpy is now. :(
But yeah, I can understand the risks, been there, done that, was ONCE permitted to beat them senseless ... "company policy" now is "if they knife you, DON'T let them take pictures fer KRIMMINY'S SAKE!" :(
I've had to "change ends in relay" often - I was lucky - I had the old "fan-cooled" cars and the end doors were ALWAYS open in hopes of some air. I shudder to think what "vapor-keying" by 7 pairs of doors on a 75-footer would be like. Key, open, grabiron, switch, open. Double back and make sure all closed again. Agggh. It USED to be SO much easier. :(
When I'd go into relay at 205, first thing I did once stopping was center-up and chase out the last geese, get to the crew door and CHECK to see if I had a switchman on my arse end. They'd usually wave getting on (once the crowd cleared) or you'd get the long buzz of satisfaction.
I'd DREAD hearing "relay" over the platform speakers - "layup" was cool, meant I could step off and do the waving MYSELF! :)
"relay" meant it was yours, and if you didn't see a switcher, it was YOURS as a "self-bussing table" ... take it in, stop it, wrench out (you could leave the cab on arnines and just pull handle WITHOUT DUMPING!, fully charged and sitting until another wrench went in somewhere else - sweetness on a stick, that's why I *despised* the 32's - meant DUMP, shuffle, RECHARGE. Two more minutes lost on the tails, now I'm LATE to Bedford ... also why the south end of 205th had a trainmaster too, just to record the madness of 205 ... but 205 was literally a horror show were it not for Unca Bill in the morning and Uncle Hector in the afternoon ... *OH* the bones they buried on paper for us all. :)
But no switchman, you'd have to walk the train to relay. Walking the platform after your switchman brought you home (and you'd crewkey BEFORE it stopped just to run up front because the NEXT pig out of relay was YOURS to book off at BPB and fall back) far exceeded the alterantive, and the unlucky sucker who got the "your switchman's in the pocket" double-secret futtbucking on time really had to hustle or *NOT* fall back at Bedford since they were already short a train to start with. :(
But there's yer answer. GHODS! I don't miss working for the Teeyay. :)
Who says this must be done? Loop terminals are almost never fumigated (Bowling Green, Brooklyn Bridge). Simply do this at Rector, and Announce that the train is headed back uptown.
You could operate more than 24tph in this fashion.
Because the terminal's ridership DOES NOT demand the same level of service that the rest of the West Side IRT does. So if they decide that they need more service in the future, then this is possible.
Of course, the terminal is capable of turning as many trains as are presently operated. So using the loop would only be necessary if there were "NEW EXTRA SERVICE!!!!!!"
But that was one of the selling points - MORE service.
But that level of service is possible right now. If you want even more service then don't make the stop at South Ferry for some trains as you suggest.
Again if using the old loop and the new terminal is the grand MTA plan to meet future demand then I'd like to hear them say as much. It might not be so good for building the new terminal.
What is the problem, for which this is the solution? Most people boarding a #1/9 at Chambers are transferring from #2/3 trains. Since #2/3 trains are plentiful at rush hour, there is no terrible crush of people waiting for the #1/9 at any given time. I therefore don't see any great need to provide "empty, waiting northbound locals" at Chambers.
Stephen Bauman wrote:
N.B., if the fumigation policy were not necessary, then there could be additional uptown terminals at 96th, 137th and Dyckman (all used in the past). This would bring the capacity of the West Side local back up to 40 tph, with the existing loop terminal.
I don't claim to fully understand why the fumigation policy is necessary. However, there are a lot of things we consider necessary today for security reasons that weren't necessary in the past. I have plenty of nostalgia for the days when one could show up at the airport 15 minutes before your flight, and still get on the plane, but I do see why this is no longer possible. No terrorists have blown up NYC subways yet, but I can well imagine the security concerns about passengers remaining on trains that have been taken out of service.
Only 5 cars and 15 doors can open, forcing all people entering and exiting the train thru them. A full train has 30 potential sets of doors. This doesn't even address the gap filler problem.
BTW, why do you think a 2 platform/3 track terminal would limit capacity to 24 TPH? Doesn't Main St. handle more than that?
No. Main St handles only 21 tph. Half the locals turn at 111th in the AM and Willets Pt in the PM.
I disagree.
First, a large fraction of the passengers who get off the train at a station with only one turnstile bank (and that includes most 1/9 stations) ride in the car or two closest to that turnstile bank. The train and station could be 100 cars long and a busy station with one exit will still generate crowding in the cars nearest the exit. That puts a station like 50th Street, with 7,383,009 annual fares and one exit from each platform, in a worse situation than South Ferry, with only 4,423,714 annual fares. (Numbers are from this post.)
Second, much of the inevitable delay on the 1/9 (I see it every day) stems from passengers who linger near the doors, obstructing passage for those getting on and off. That doesn't happen at South Ferry, since everybody gets off there.
Third (and related), most of the flow at South Ferry is unidirectional in the rush hours -- onto the train in the morning, off of the train in the afternoon.
So if something is limiting the line to less than 30 tph, it's not South Ferry.
Not that it really matters, since I am in favor of extending the existing platform to full-length and adding a new exit (with elevator) at the new end. Even if you were right and I was wrong, your objections vanish as soon as this happens. This new South Ferry, if not the old, can certainly handle 30 tph.
Unlike the much more expensive one the MTA is planning, which can only handle 24 tph.
The MTA hasn't answered that exact question, but I would guess that there are dwell time "spikes" when a ferry has just arrived, and all of those people are trying to cram into the first five cars. My recollection is that, besides accommodating only five cars, the platform at SF is also comparatively narrow. The MTA says that there are dwell time problems at that station, and while I realize there are people here who doubt everything they say, it does seem plausible on its face, and I've no reason to doubt it.
...physically reducing the capacity of a busy line, even without spending $400 million in the process, is about the worst thing a transit agency could possibly do.
I see no evidence that the proposed project will reduce the capacity of the line. It is true that 28-30tph operated on that line many years ago, and the announced capacity of the new terminal will be 24tph. However, as is often discussed here, safety standards have changed over the last 50 years. You need to compare apples to apples.
As an aside, I have my own doubts about this project, but posts that distort the facts don't help to clarify the cost/benefit analysis.
I visited the South Ferry terminal a few months ago and posted my observations. The report included a dwell time analysis.
To recap:
gap filler operation increases dwell time by a minimal amount - about 5 seconds. it's a red herring in terms of capacity.
there was an instance of a simultaneous gap in train service and a Barberi class boat unloading. the dwell time for the train that emptied the platform was around 45 seconds, which would permit 34 tph operation. one reason for the remarkably quick loading is the fact that there is essentially one-way traffic. not many people are taking the ferry to SI during the morning rush
the longest dwell times occur not when a boat arrives between trains but when boat passengers are entering the platform when a train is in the station. the problem is that the C/R cannot determine when the doors are free to close. i proposed that access to the platform be restricted while a train is in the station to solve this problem. this would be similar to the gates that used on the Paris Metro for the same purpose.
the new station design does not address any of these points, costs $400 million and has less capacity.
That represents anywhere from 15-20% of dwell time. This is significant, especially when combinbed with other sources of additive 5-10 second delays.
"the longest dwell times occur not when a boat arrives between trains but when boat passengers are entering the platform when a train is in the station. the problem is that the C/R cannot determine when the doors are free to close. i proposed that access to the platform be restricted while a train is in the station to solve this problem. this would be similar to the gates that used on the Paris Metro for the same purpose."
A very intelligent point.
" the new station design does not address any of these points,"
False statement. The new station will be closer to and better accessed from the ferry slips and ,ore efficient at passenger loading, by at least 5 seconds, representing at least a 25% improvement there.
"and has less capacity. "
Misleading and probably false. Youi draw inappropriate conclusions from your data. It is because you are biased and therefore incapable of an honest assessment. You don't let facts get in the way of your whining.
Are you suggesting that the gap filler's additional 5 sec contribution is critical? Are you saying that a 30 second dwell time at South Ferry is critical to West Side operation? (16% of 30 = 5.) If the 30 second figure for dwell time is not critical, then what is the critical dwell time for the West Side line? Numerical answers only, please.
What additional 5-10 second delays? I've made a site visit with stopwatch. I'd like to know which additional unspecified delays I've missed from your Kansas City vantage point.
The new station will be closer to and better accessed from the ferry slips
Take a closer look at the proposal. Note that the position of the present station and entrance is located adjacent to the ferry terminal pedestrian exit.
Note that there are 3 separate entrance and fare control areas for the new station. Entrance #1 is located at located on Whitehall St (halfway between the ferry slip and State St) to connect the the existing BMT station. This entrance is about half a block from Slip #1. However most passengers will continue to use the upper level exits through the terminal. The ramp for the new terminal will be to the Coast Guard Station side of Slip #3. This will place entrance #1 another half block further away.
Entrance #2 is located at State St, close to where the automobile ticket office is located. It's a block away from the terminal. Entrance #3 is located on State St near the intersection with Pearl St (the unnamed street south of Bridge St). It's about 2 blocks away from the ferry exit.
The point is that only Entrance #1 will be used by ferry passengers because it is closest. Ferry passengers will still use a single entrance. Any dispersion of passengers along the 500 foot platform will be at the platform level not at the entrance level.
There won't be any dispersion, if there's a train waiting. People will bolt to the closest open door. The problem for C/R's in determining where there's a break in passenger flow when a ferry is disembarking will remain.
One aspect for the new station has been ignored - segregating entering and exiting passengers. The terminal design has a single center platform. It does not have additional side platforms for exiting passengers. This is more of a problem during the evening rush hour than during the morning. I'd certainly have added such a provision considering that the new station is supposed to last 100 years and somebody else is picking up the tab. However, it still would not address the capacity constraints the new station will place on the West Side line.
If I have $100, and I give you $5, I still have $95 left. But if Selkirk, Paul Matus and 3 other Subtalkers each asked for $5, I'd be out $30. That might cause a problem for me. Each $5 payment wasn't critical in and of itself. But together they impact my budget significantly.
The same is true of each of the little sources of delay at a subway station.
I asked you what the total dwell time should be. What is your numerical answer. N.B. dwell time is usually measured in seconds.
False statement. The new station will be closer to and better accessed from the ferry slips and ,ore efficient at passenger loading, by at least 5 seconds, representing at least a 25% improvement there.
Sorry. Anything made up in closer is instantly lost in depth correction. The new station will be deeper, so time saved by being closer is now spent climbing more stairs.
As for being closer, it would seem we're talking about 3 to 4 feet closer. When they brought all the pictures to the public meeting on Staten Island, I noticed a very interesting thing about them - all of the un-favored options showed the station locations as compared to the old terminal which is currently being torn down. Only the favored option showed its placement to the new terminal building, while convenoently leaving out any comparision to the already existing area. It's very hard to compare apples with oranges.
I'm not saying that the line can handle 30 tph because at some point in the past it did. (I don't know if it did, nor do I much care.) I'm saying that the line can handle at least 30 tph because every line can handle at least 30 tph, ignoring terminal issues.
On the 1/9, the north terminal presents a problem -- but two additional potential terminals, at Dyckman and at 137th, present two solutions to that problem.
What about the south terminal? At the track geometry level, there is no south terminal! The train stops at Chambers, then Rector, then South Ferry, then Rector, then Chambers. Terminal capacity constraints are caused by some combination of three factors: switching, slowing for bumper blocks, and removing passengers. South Ferry has none of those factors. Unless there is something exceptionally unusual about the station, nothing at South Ferry limits capacity below 30 tph, just as nothing at any other through station on the line (or on any other line) limits capacity to below 30 tph.
If you would like to claim that something about South Ferry does limit capacity to below 30 tph, the onus is on you to identify that something. You are looking for some feature of the station that makes it impossible for a train to arrive at the station within 120 seconds of its leader. (Keep in mind that dwell times at much busier stations on the line rarely approach even 60 seconds.) Good luck.
Which facts have I distorted?
The platform is not particularly narrow. I don't have the precise measurements in front of me, but if anything, I'd say it's probably a bit wider than most local stations on the line, and it's certainly wider than most express stations on the line.
Cramming people into five empty cars through fifteen unblocked doors takes less time than cramming people into ten crush loaded cars through thirty blocked doors.
Of course the MTA says there are dwell time problems at that station. The MTA wants to go through with this project. In recent years, the MTA has exhibited much evidence of an edifice complex. Why take the word of the project sponsor blindly? Think critically.
As Stephen Bauman has reminded us, the so-called "fumigation policy" prevents Dyckman and 137th from being used as terminals. I am not saying I agree with this policy, but it is the reason why you can no longer run 30tph on the 7th Avenue local.
The MTA can discard that policy but they can't junk the new SF terminal that will permit a maximum of 24 tph in theory.
Even if he is correct that it typically takes the train crew four minutes to clear out a train, that number could be easily reduced (at increased expense, of course) with the help of platform conductors at the short terminal.
And policies have been known to change. This policy is relatively recent (it's less than a decade old, I believe), and it already has one exception (the 6 at Brooklyn Bridge). It's quite possible that it will be rescinded or that a second exception will be made at some point in the future. At that point your objection fizzles away, and 30 tph is again possible.
Unless South Ferry has been rebuilt, that is, in which case all the platform conductors and policy changes in the world won't alleviate the $400 million bottleneck.
Rather than spending $400 million to reduce the capacity of South Ferry and hence of the entire line, how about spending a fraction of that amount on the functional improvements (lengthen the existing platform, add an exit, and add an elevator), and then spend the balance to rebuild 137th as a proper terminal, in the style of Whitehall (but with wider platforms)? Then it wouldn't matter if the policy is ever changed -- the line south of 137th would easily handle 30 tph.
And before anyone objects that money earmarked for Lower Manhattan is being used elsewhere, the money is being used to increase service in Lower Manhattan (and everywhere else along a very densely populated corridor).
The presentation on the MTA website shows that seven alternatives were evaluated—including the one you're proposing. Since it's just an 11-page PowerPoint, we don't have all the details of exactly what each option would cost, and why the non-favored options were rejected. The DEIS/FEIS will give us that. But in the meantime, I would tend to doubt that we amateurs are more skilled at designing subway stations than transit/engineering professionals.
On its face, it seems ludicrous that for the same $400m you could bring the South Ferry loop to modern standards in situ and build a new terminal at 137th St. I suspect that any of the seven options evaluated for SF would use up a large fraction of the $400m budgeted. A new terminal at 137 would probably be another several hundred million—perhaps a good idea, but not in scope at this time.
You also have yet to provide any evidence that the proposed design will reduce capacity.
Be careful. David might come back and argue that YOU haven't posted any evidence that the new design won't reduce capacity.
The claimed reason for rejection of the non-favored options was very simple - they would have to do a lot of work within the footprint of Battery Park, which might possibly result in the loss of 34 trees.
We don't have the details? That's an understatement -- I don't see any information at all.
The DEIS/FEIS will give us that.
Fraid not. It appears that all of the information that will be made available to the public regarding a major change that is about to take place on a line that serves a string of diverse neighborhoods along the west edge of Manhattan and the Bronx was already made available at a meeting in Staten Island.
But in the meantime, I would tend to doubt that we amateurs are more skilled at designing subway stations than transit/engineering professionals.
I don't know if you're an amateur or a professional, nor am I sure what difference it makes. The issues that have come up in this discussion are fairly straightforward.
Stephen Dobrow a"h, former head (for over 30 years) of the Committee for Better Transit, was a professor of electrical engineering, but I think we can all agree that he certainly knew something about transit, whether or not we agree with his conclusions.
In any case, the best answer to the question depends on the question. Are we asking for a flashy new station at South Ferry and that's it, or are we asking for a more functional station at South Ferry with maintained functionality on the rest of the line? Service demands on the rest of the line aren't even relevant to the first question, which appears to have been the one that was asked.
On its face, it seems ludicrous that for the same $400m you could bring the South Ferry loop to modern standards in situ and build a new terminal at 137th St. I suspect that any of the seven options evaluated for SF would use up a large fraction of the $400m budgeted. A new terminal at 137 would probably be another several hundred million—perhaps a good idea, but not in scope at this time.
I'm not so sure about that. At various periods between the 30's and the 70's, most IRT and BMT stations were lengthened. (The entire express station at 59/Lex was dug out of the tunnel walls in the 60's!) Apparently it's doable.
You also have yet to provide any evidence that the proposed design will reduce capacity.
You're the one who's making the incredible claim that a station on a section of continuous track has a capacity of less than 24 tph; you're the one who has to provide the evidence. That shouldn't be too difficult, if it's true: just camp out by one of the signals along the platform and time the red aspect. If the signal consistently stays red for at least 2½ minutes, ignoring cases when the holding lights are turned on, then you win.
Stephen Bauman has already posted that the average dwell time for two hours on the morning of September 23, 2003 was about 50 seconds. That leaves 100 seconds for you to account for. Good luck.
That we can agree on.
" but I think we can all agree that he certainly knew something about transit, whether or not we agree with his conclusions."
Most people justifiably think he's a crackpot with very little to contribute to any kind of transit discussion.
"That's an understatement -- I don't see any information at all. "
But that's an old story. You close your eyes to things you don't want to see. That's a game you play here over and over again.
"You're the one who's making the incredible claim that a station on a section of continuous track has a capacity of less than 24 tph; you're the one who has to provide the evidence"
Actually, since you're the one who claimed initially that the new terminal will reduce capacity, the burden is on you to prove it. But you're too lazy for that; it's an old story.
But it's fun to read your posts anyway. And this is subtalk, so who cares? :0)
Ah, yes, of course. He and his committee opposed AirTrain. Therefore he must have been a crackpot and he couldn't possibly have contributed anything at all to any transit discussion.
Yet apparently there were those who disagreed, like the governor who appointed him to the New York City Transit Riders Council. Or like NY1, who named him New Yorker of the Year in 1997.
He was among the first to correctly identify the cause of the 1995 Williamsburg Bridge crash.
I know of a crackpot with very little to contribute to any kind of transit discussion, but his name is not Dobrow.
Actually, since you're the one who claimed initially that the new terminal will reduce capacity, the burden is on you to prove it. But you're too lazy for that; it's an old story.
Can you name any through station in the entire system that can't handle 24 tph? If there's something unusual about South Ferry that it, unlike any other station with similar geometrics, cannot handle 24 tph, I'm still waiting for someone to point it out.
(At least oakapple gave some reasonable guesses, even if they didn't pan out.)
Stephen Bauman has commented on some similarities between the proposed South Ferry and Jamaica Center. If he's right, the proposed South Ferry won't be able to handle more than 12 tph. Current maximum 1/9 service is 20 tph.
The current South Ferry terminal is not a terminal. It can handle at least 30 tph without a problem.
Evidence for this?
Besides, I'm skeptical about the 24 tph figure.
Why would you be? You've just informed us that the capacity of any line is at least 30tph.
It's nice to know that the TA is sacrificing South Ferry's gold standard track topology and spending $400 million doing it.
When the Transit Capacity and Quality of Service Manual was written, I doubt that these limitations were considered a "gold standard."
1999
The need for gap fillers is a consequence of poor car design. South Ferry operated for 55 years without them.
In terms of service capacity, the extra time required for gap filler operation (and consequent service capacity loss) is less than that required by a properly designed terminal.
There is only one loop station in the whole system that's still in use. Would you change the car design for one station?
South Ferry operated for 55 years without them.
We are less willing to tolerate safety hazards than we were then. Remember, in those days seat belts in cars were optional equipment.
Since the TA is keeping the loop for non-revenue use, is the new station underneath it?
Almost certainly. I think the depth at SF is too shallow to allow a station to be built above it.
To be fair, would you consider an airport circulator to be a proper modern analogy?
The idea is, that a train stops at a station, and must line up exactly (or within a small +/- error) with a platform device, be it a gap filler, a platform door or whatever. Then both the train door and this platform device must operate together. In practice, the airport circulators (AirTrain, the Hartsfield Atlanta airport circulator, the Las Vegas McCarran Airport circulator and London's Jubilee Line Extension work very well this way, with little or no delay to passengers.
But South Ferry is not up to the operational standards of the above modern, automated systems. A substantial amount of work would have to be undertaken to get it there. And gap fillers represent additional moving parts which must be maintained, parts a straight platform doesn't need.
"The need for gap fillers is a consequence of poor car design."
This is pure nonsense, of course. With only two stations in the entire subway system utilizing these devices, it would have been silly for the TA to design new fleets of subway cars to fitthem. The new cars serve passengers very well, and in the end it's more appropriate to rebuild one station - which needs a rebuild anyway.
The idea is, that a train stops at a station, and must line up exactly (or within a small +/- error) with a platform device, be it a gap filler, a platform door or whatever...with little or no delay to passengers.
These are reasonable analogies. One must also take account the scale of operations. The train length is considerably shorter than 500 feet, for most of the systems you mentioned. This has some implications on service level capacity (tph). The automatic systems I've ridden employ a much greater stopping time than that used on manually operated subways. This would ordinarilly reduce service level capacity. The compensation is the shorter trains, which increase capacity. Also, some systems, e.g. AirTrain, have track brakes which also increase capacity by significantly reducing emergency braking time.
There are a couple of differences between platform doors and gap fillers. Gap fillers require a little bit more time than platform doors because they require approximately additional 2.5 seconds to actuate after the train has stopped; platform doors dont.
With only two stations in the entire subway system utilizing these devices, it would have been silly for the TA to design new fleets of subway cars to fitthem.
You obviously don't remember the iron boarding gates that used to be installed on most heavily used IRT stations until the mid 1950's. They permitted passengers to stand up against the platform edge in safety, thus utilizing more of the platform area. They also provided an area away from the door openings, where passengers would wait and avoid conflicts with exiting passengers. I have not seen any pictures of these but look carefully at the IRT scenes from Ken Burns' NYC epic, the next time it's shown.
Also, the rule used to be to enter at the end doors and exit from the center door, further avoiding two-way motion which is less eficient than one-way laminar flow.
There were subtle reasons why the ancient IRT designs were able achieve the service levels they did. Car designers overlooked these considerations, when they opted for door placement that minimized the distance to a door from within a car. They also reduced the amount of space available to passengers within a car at the same time.
There's more than two stations that were nullified by the newer car designs. However, I consider only not being able to use existing stations and/or lines to be design defect. I consider the other problems to be design shortcomings. They have a greater impact than the stations that require gap fillers.
the rule used to be to enter at the end doors and exit from the center door
These sound like good practical ways to reduce dwell times generally. Would it be practical to reintroduce them?
No, door placement on all the postwar cars (and the prewar LV-WF) makes it impossible to implement such a policy.
The TA's proposed South Ferry Terminal has neither a storage yard nor shop. Should one therefore presume that the TA's proposal will result in something less than a well-designed station and terminal facility for their lack?
Any more red herrings you want to bring up?
Independent of the terminals, that is. I recall him saying that in another post. The capacity of a stretch of track is hypothetically supposed to be 30 TPH, but the capacity of the line as a whole is limited by choke points - terminals like Jamaica Center, junctions like Rogers and Broadway/Myrtle, crowded stations like Grand Central, etc...
Your assumption is wrong. Terminal capacity is determined by the amount of time it takes to traverse the interlocking not the number of tracks.
A secondary constraint is the amount of time it takes a train to reverse direction. Multiple tracks can eliminate this secondary constraint.
The problem with the South Ferry design is the lack of tail tracks and the distance of the interlocking from the station. This is double the number of design problems with Jamaica Center.
The first design problem means that trains have to travel significantly slower over the interlocking, hence fewer trains per hour can use the station. The second design problem reduces the effective dwell time that a train can be in the terminal and still utilize the interlocking 100% of the time.
The latest documents on the MTA website show a 2-track terminal.
Stephen Bauman wrote:
The problem with the South Ferry design is the lack of tail tracks and the distance of the interlocking from the station.
I have not seen any document that illustrates the position of the interlocking in relation to the station. Can you show us where this is, or are you simply assuming that the current crossover near Rector Street is the only one that will be available?
You will note that the crossover is just north of the intersection of Bridge and State Streets. If you take out some measuring devices, you can determine that the crossover is about 300 feet north of the proposed new station. That's about the same distance the Parsons Center crossover is from the platform according to the chain markings.
Yes. You don't have a draft copy of the PDEIS?
My primary interest among the new projects is the SAS and ESA.
Artist's rendition of new South Ferry terminal. Portal is out of view to the right of the frame :).
Don't assume these are the latest documents -- they are the same ones that have always been there.
Somebody had to come up with an excuse for Jamaica Center's design blunders. Could you please tell us, what benefits there are to the crossover's placement in a non-terminal context?
The way I would favor fixing Jamaica Center is to extend the lower level in the direction the tail tracks are already pointed, to a new station at Archer/Merrick (where there should have been one anyway- to fully replace the El service); that station would be designed to turn trains faster. As to the upper level, those tracks could be extended a little, beyond the current 2000 foot tail curve, remaining underground, to a new station as well.
Cost? Benefits?
I'm so ... so shocked. You've always talked about Downtown Jamaica like it's a more upscale version of Rodeo Drive. Now, to hear ... this, it just boggles my mind.
1. The LL tracks aren't as long as the upper level's tracks.
to a new station at Archer/Merrick (where there should have been one anyway- to fully replace the El service);
2. Why would you extend the less popular line? The upper level line goes to midtown, which the lower level presently does not, and reaches Lower Manhattan in almost the same amount of time.
Why try to replicate service from the mid 1980's? Did you learn nothing from the Manhattan bridge re-opening?
We'll see what happens...
Do you really think your attitude is wise?
You replied: "Your assumption is wrong. Terminal capacity is determined by the amount of time it takes to traverse the interlocking not the number of tracks.
A secondary constraint is the amount of time it takes a train to reverse direction. Multiple tracks can eliminate this secondary constraint."
In other words, my assumption is not wrong.
All of the above!
(I've seen it with my own eyes. A train goes 42-59-72-96. The train behind it makes all stops. While the C/R is still trying to close the doors at 72, its follower's headlights appear.)
It also exacerbates an uncomfortable and potentially dangerous crowding condition on the platform -- and on the following train.
Such a procedure might make sense on a line without scheduled express service. On a line with express service, most of the passengers on an overcrowded local are presumably going to local stations, or else they would have no reason to put up with an overcrowded local.
How? I've been a motorman for 20 years and I was just wondering what corners you would have me cut or what rules you would have me violate?
There's always a solution to every problem here on subtalk. (grin)
But ya can't argue with folks who haven't actually TRIED to do it. :)
It's real easy to LOSE time (wimpy running, slow braking) but I've never WON "beat the clock." Heh.
Since you were a TO back in the bad old days tell me, were there really "cowboys" who charged down the track or was the urban legend?
As much as the "lore" of "cowboys" may please those who never pounded the rails, the reality is you're there in a broom closet with hundreds of tons of train wrapped around you (an image presented by schoolcar) and the lives of thousands dependent on you. You'd have to be out of your teat to play cowboy in such a situation.
And I was usually late (post six minutes) on a majority of runs because the railroad was in a hell of a mess at the time. My idea of living dangerously was hearing at 34th that the railroad was laid down all the way to 59th, so I'd shut down, walk down the catwalk and grab a smoke. :)
Those were the days. And to think some idiots have nostalgia for that time.
I did TWO round trips, one round trip in the morning, the other in the afternoon, put-ins, lay-ups and PREPS, *plus* random "Here kid, go to 168th and cut up some B's" to round out my 8.00 ... I was *proud* to work for the "Geez! We have SUBWAYS? MTA of yore ..." The kids were all hung up on their Holy Ronan M-1s (though I could have SWORN they were originally called "A-1-A's" they had no idea that under the water and sewer pipes, there be TRAINS. WITHOUT locomotives! :)
So while they screwed up the railroad faster than you can say "BoT", all of us loyal "still shaking in our boots after the Roosevelt Avenue wreck" (I came in just after that) TWU brothers and sisters just did our appointed "TA shuffle" where, based on the incredible malfeasance of "Rocky and his squirrels" we got 9.2 or 9.8 hours a day. I didn't care if the train was late - *I* was getting paid. Heh.
But seriously, bro ... you've GOTTA do it in the dirt like TWU folks do - then you'll suddenly realize, even after only four WEEKS on the road, that these boys and girls DESERVE their "police, fire, sanitation PARITY" for all they're forced to see, hear, breathe and DO. No joke - the job eats you up like that. They DESERVE the 20/50. I know, I did it, couldn't even make it through a YEAR with all the bullshirt flapping at half-staff ... :(
Let me give you an example of a trip in the Flushing Express. I took the first AM express. Its scheduled departure times were: Main St 640; Willets Pt 0643; Junction 0646; Woodside 0650 and Queensboro Plaza 0655.
There were no abnormal dwell times nor delays along the way. The train actually left Main St at 06:39:33 or or 27 seconds early. It left Willets Pt at 06:43:03 or 3 seconds late. However, it went from 27 seconds early to 3 seconds late for a net loss of 30 seconds during a 3 minute scheduled run. It left Junction at 06:46:36 or 36 seconds late, making its accumulated time loss now 66 seconds. It left Woodside at 06:50:14 or only 14 seconds late. It made up 52 seconds during a scheduled run of 4 minutes - 240 seconds. It left Queensboro Plaza at 06:56:31 or 91 seconds later than its scheduled departure. It lost an additional 77 seconds on a scheduled run of 240 seconds.
It would appear that there is a lot of opportunity for this particular T/O to lose or gain time vis-a-vis the published schedule.
The point is that trains must operate to within a tighter tolerance to avoid merging conflicts (to within 30 seconds for 30 tph operation). Variations between stations in excess of 30 seconds is not the way to achieve such operation.
The present rush hour schedules are more than sufficiently padded with extra time to permit corrections of the type I have proposed. The problem is this results in the padded time being expended at merge points, terminals or behind a leader because trains are using the signal system rather than the schedule to regulate their headways.
Let me cite an example: the 4 and 5 rush hour schedules on the Lex. Look at the travel time between 125th and Grand Central. It varies from 10 minutes (0638-0648 on the 5) to 18 minutes (0848-0906 on the 5). The same holds true for the 4.
Why the 8 minute difference? This is supposed to account for the additional dwell time at stations. The stations in this instance are: 86th, 59th and Grand Central because these are departure times. The 8 minutes translates to an average increase of 2 minutes and 40 seconds in dwell time at each station. This would bring the total dwell time at each station up to 3 minutes. That inconsistent with the stated 28 tph, which would require a maximum of 69 seconds dwell time.
I've measured the rush hour dwell time at each of these stations. It averages under 35 seconds for each. Its non-rush hour value is probably around 20 seconds for each. One could account for a 45 seconds of the increase between non-rush and rush hour running times.
Where is the extra extra 7 minutes being spent? It's not within the stations. It's where the train meets a timekeeper in the form of a train being held to time (leader), a dispatcher at a terminal who is controlling outgoing trains so that there no pockets available at the terminal or a merge point with another service whose scheduled arrival is closer to reality.
What I'm proposing is that a little bit of the extra 7 minutes be invested into scheduled dwell time at the stations. Let's say the scheduled dwell time would be 45 seconds, which would permit up to 34 tph operation. I'd calculate the travel time between stations to the same safe speed as it is during non-rush hours. This would permit me to calculate the scheduled departure times for each station. I would then use my clocks to get crews to try to adhere closely to this schedule. I've given them a margin or headstart of at least 12 to 20 seconds time at each station to get back on schedule. I don't want trains to get ahead or get behind schedule.
BTW, only a fraction of the existing dwell time is actually used by passengers getting in and out of cars. The rest of the dwell time is spent stopped at the station with the doors open or doors closed and no passenger movement in or out of the cars. Published data suggests that fraction of dwell time spent by passengers moving across the door threshold at Grand Central is around 65%. So, I have actually have more than the 12 to 20 second cushion at each station.
Please tell me which corners have I cut and which safety rules have been violated.
I’m intrigued by your last statement. What is the TA facing legally, that is relevant to this discussion? Stephen’s argument is that an increased service frequency is possible if the TA changes its timing standards and keeps trains to a more rigorous timetable. What legal obstacles are in the way?"
My thrust was that the TA's legal environment is much different than what the Moscow Metro faces (Stephen favors the Moscow Metro's methods). We have a much more litigious environment. When you look at changing the TA's ways, one of the factors you have to address is liability, in a way that Moscow Metro or Tokyo subway managers do not.
"Sometimes, it’s necessary to examine a system from the outside, a possibility you seem to discount. (This last statement is based on my interpretation of a number of your posts)"
My fault. I did not mean to imply that an outside observer cannot bring a fresh look to the situation. And Stephen certainly is intelligent. But his posts make clear that he has an insufficient appreciation for just what TA workers have to do - their workflow and its context.
"I would hazard that a more likely scenario is that various people collected departure/arrival statistics at appropriate points in the extant bus system, and some others rode selected buses to acquire a qualitative view of the system, perhaps including interviewing the bus-driving staff."
Yes, and they did so quite extensively (my source is personal communication with individuals within the PA involved with this project when it was under study and construction. I gt to know them quite well). They were quite thorough, so their work produced a lot of information on just how the buses were performing (or not performing, actually).
They did that.
Whaaaa-whoaahhh-wait-a-second.
You're saying an actual real architect, with a degree in architecture, who has passed the license exam to practice architecture in NY state, a designer of structures - a lofty dreaming godlike catalyst forging our collective hopes and dreams into awe inspiring public monuments, an ARCHITECT got behind the wheel of a bus and drove it around JFK airport for a couple of MONTHS?
'cause that's what it sounds like you're saying, and I have to admit I'm just slightly incredulous.
And rightly so, because you need a special driver's license to drive a bus.
Only on the web (and especially on Subtalk) do people read each line literally and not in context.
Then there the evangelicals...:0)
:0)
If a train is running ahead of schedule, then more passengers than usual end up on its follower. The additional crowding causes delays, and that train falls behind schedule.
At the same time, the train that's ahead of schedule has fewer passengers than usual. If left unchecked, it creeps further and further ahead of schedule until it meets its leader. That dumps even more passengers onto its follower.
And I haven't even gotten into merges. (The line I ride most frequently manages to have more than its share of overcrowded unreliable service even though it has no merges at all, except at night.)
"Ladies and Gentlemen... We have arrived at this junction point ahead of our scheduled time, and will have to wait here for a few minutes, to let the rest of the railroad catch up with us. The MTA wishes to assure you that we will continue on to our destinations on time."
Now wouldn't *that* cook your goose!
Elias
Additionally, Baumann says that it's TA ineptitude, stating that because the NYCT allows trains to be a full minute off schedule, merge delays occur. If a train is only a minute ahead of it's schedule, then it's not going to create the problem you're referring to.
It's extensive gaps that create that problem.
I think Stephen Bauman's solutions are more complex than that and that is too much of an oversimplification and should soon become clear. I don't read him to imply that early trains are the exclusive source of merging delays. Whether some of his fixes are feasible, e.g., varying the length of trains instead of holding merge ratios constant is another matter-I don't think that one is as G riders on QB might agree.
"Of course, a train that's early is not expreiencing a merge delay, and holding lights won't help a train that's late."
An early train on a line with 2 tph will support your argument. But on a line running 20 tph merging with another doing 10 tph, one train running 35 seconds early can really screw things up. Holding lights at more stations used more often would prevent this source of merging delays.
"Additionally, Baumann says that it's TA ineptitude, stating that because the NYCT allows trains to be a full minute off schedule, merge delays occur. If a train is only a minute ahead of it's schedule, then it's not going to create the problem you're referring to."
See his use of the Flushing line as an illustration. There is an AM merge into QBP. If your express train running one minute early is at the same place my local train running on schedule is then there are going to be delays and probably not just for our 2 trains. "Only a minute" may not seem like a lot but at decreased headways it matters.
"It's extensive gaps that create that problem."
Extensive gaps don't just happen. Some of them are caused by broken trains but others start out small and become extensive.
should read:
"Whether some of his fixes are feasible, e.g., varying the length of trains AS A MEANS OF holding merge ratios constant is another matter-I don't think that one is as G riders on QB might agree."
You miss my point. If that express is early, then it's not delayed when it waits for the local. If it is running ahead of schedule it would have to be held somewhere anyway, so it isn't a delay.
I think its a matter of the express being declared "early" with respect to something. You seem to be saying the train's own schedule and I agree with that but it isn't the only train on the line. If its crossing over a switch when another train is supposed to be there, which is more likely the more trains in service, then its hard to say that no delays result.
Even assuming like you do, that the express train is held up just short of the interlocking, that isn't the best use of an express train, to spend maximum time waiting for interlockings to clear. What if, to complicate things further, the local that was to go first is about a minute behind its own scheduled time?
I used to watch this happen, when I'd see an A train pass by Clinton-Washington, and then board a C train, and then the A train would be held up. Of course, I'd also have already seen 2, sometimes 3 A trains go by, so it was pretty fair.
What if, to complicate things further, the local that was to go first is about a minute behind its own scheduled time?
Depends on how early the express is. If the express arrives at the interlocking at the exact time that the local was supposed to be there, and that local is one minute behind, then the express should simply proceed, as it would clear the switch before the local even reached it. Of course, then, you're continuing to widen the gap between that express and it's follower, and now you can't hold it because you'd also delay a local train.
Maybe I misstated my point: Baumann claims a major part of interlocking delays is trains going early. A train that's early is not going to create a delay if it has to be held at the interlocking, as it would have been held at a station under Baumann's idea.
On the other end of the spectrum, if a train is late, then Holding lights are not going to help. So there's no point in installing them.
If the leader hadn't been allowed to leave the timepoint early, the follower wouldn't have been overcrowded and wouldn't have fallen behind schedule.
(And as others have pointed out, holding trains between stations is poor customer service. It's annoying and it denies passengers the ability to get off the train and transfer or walk to avoid the wait.)
Sure it can. Consider the problem at Queens Plaza. If a V local arrives early, then the tower will not set its switch. Suppose an on-time E that comes in behind it on the express track. The presence of a train on the local without a lineup will cause timers to slow down the express. So, instead of taking its nominal 30 seconds to enter the station and stop, it will have to take an additional 60 seconds travelling at 5 mph to a stop.
Have you observed this or is this conjecture?
(I'm asking a serious question, not trying to dispute your argument. I personally have never seen a timer that only operates when there is a train on the other track that could potentially get in the way. I've seen plenty of timers that operate in such a circumstance whether or not there is a train on the other track.)
It's a blind trip -- no signal just a tripper.
The writer said he was in favor of better integration between the LIRR and the subway. You can be in favor of this without necessarily favoring the Brookfield proposal, because there are other ways of doing it that don't take away subway service.
Im talking about Adding lines,ending bottle necks by creating new thru routing from Manhattan to Brooklyn.New river tunnels,and new connectors between lines.Creating new routes by using underused[and unused] trackage.This would help the system,not hurt it. Court st should be used as a station,not a exibit!!!
Well that is debatable but the current Transit Museum location [being Court St of course] is just fine. Speaking of unused trackage, they should utilize the Chrystie connector and they should NOT have realigned the Nassau line. Chambers St would be ideal for a major transit hub since it connects to the Lexington Av line and there's ample room.
New tunnel connectors between certain lines would solve this problem.Dekalb/Rugers,Second ave to Montague or Cranberry st, WTC/Courtlandt st,City hall[bmt]to Broad st,and Court st to Montague st are a few I can think of. A new East river tunnel from Court st Brooklyn to Whitehall,South Ferry along with the WTC/Courtlandt st tunnel would remove 8TH ave locals from the Cranberry st tube,and make other routing possible. The Air train plan is just one way to get the ball rolling if all angles are studied....
Dekalb/Rutgers: Nah I don't see that as a possibility, besides Dekalb is already complex as it is with the Manhattan Bridge and all.
2 Av/Montague or Cranberry: This would of been good if it weren't for the A/C and F having the cross platform transfer at Jay St/Borough Hall. I would rule Montague OUT however it'll be good to give the R a second option to go still be able to use the Montague should something happen but then you don't have a 6 Av connection from the 60 St tube and the only way it's logical is if the R were to use 63 St tunnel regularly, which I don't see happening.
Court St[TM]/Montague: Again, I say this is debatable.
Court St-Whitehall via new East River tunnel: I'm all for it on this plan however what line would you run to use that service?
The existing system is a money-loser, in the sense that it costs more to operate than is collected at the fare box. We decided a three generations ago (like, when the city took over the bankrupt IRT/BMT) that transit was a worthwhile public investment.
We all know what happened after that...Robert Moses decided that the public purse should subsidize roads and bridges, not trains. In other words, we decided to lose money on something else. It took decades to figure out that that was a mistake, so now we're "losing" money on mass transit investments again.
Your right and something needs to be done about it. Its amazing how the MTA [NYCT] has the highest farebox/expense ratio and lost on compensation for so many years, very sad indeed :-\. But you have to agree that if they went through with the Brookfield proposal, it will lose even more money.
We all know what happened after that...Robert Moses decided that the public purse should subsidize roads and bridges, not trains. In other words, we decided to lose money on something else. It took decades to figure out that that was a mistake, so now we're "losing" money on mass transit investments again.
Too bad nobody had thar charisma in terms of mass transit. Had they had someone who was demanding on the subway/buses like Moses, who knows the IND Second System might of been built and the system would certainly be bigger than what it is, or should be.
Chambers st will remain a full 4 track station, with connections to the manhattan bridge stub tracks.
Why would you need a new service? Face it, nostalgia aside, there's no reason that the other 2 tracks were needed.
It has been decades since there was a need for all of those platforms at Chambers St. That's why it has so many platforms out of service. What's the evidence to suggest there's any great demand for a transit hub at that location? Yes, two lines cross there, but there are dozens of stations where two (or more) lines cross.
If by "utlizing the Chrystie connector" you mean the connection from the Nassau St tracks to the 6th Avenue tracks, this has been studied over and over again, and there doesn't seem to be great demand for it. I mean, what the heck, while you're proposing new services why not throw in the Sea Beach express too?
There are a lot more middle class employed people in the sections served by the J and M than there were when the connector was last used.
Do you think those people are unique in NYC in that they don't work in midtown. If so, take a look at the loads transferring between the F and J/M/Z at Delancey/Essex.
So there is demand. Whether it's enough to justify splintering the M/J/Z service is another issue.
A subway line using the Chrystie connector is more realistic than the NX coming back and you know it, that's why I didn't consider it however if an express station was built at say Kings Highway, then it becomes a bit more realistic.
Lower Manhattan developers have persuaded the Governor that it's important to have a one-seat ride from Lower Manhattan to JFK. It would very expensive to build a special line for so few passengers, so they are looking for cheaper alternatives.
I agree with you that there are many ways in which the money could be better spent, and I hope the whole idea is shelved.
You see all these "modernistic" city scapes with trains running in glass tubes arching across the city.
Heck the things could come in on the 20th floor of the new office tower.
Ain't nobody can complain of the el being noisy or blocking out light, and it ain't in their damn back yard!
: ) Elias
This is an important issue because cell phones do not work in the subway (in tunnels and many stations). Of course, the phones on the LIRR are available more often than on the subway, even though people can use cellphones on the railroad and in Penn Station.
The survey has some limitations. It does not cover the root cause of malfunctions, ie, how often do the coin boxes get full and are not emptied (so the phone stops accepting coins); how often is there a line problem; how often and where is vandalism the worst, etc. etc. It would be good to hear Verizon's explanation of what happens to its payphones on a month-to-month basis. What kind of data does Verizon give the MTA?
However, as a straight measure of how payphones have fared over time, this survey's pretty good - and MTA isn't releasing useful data.
Check out the survey The methodology is explained and tables and a chart are provided.
http://www.straphangers.org/phones03/index.html
Has the time come to wire the subways for cellphone use?
I say it's stale because vandals will always jams coin slots and use the end of a metal coat hanger to loosen change in their pockets that customers lose on pay phones. Happens on street as well at in the transit system.
I myself have never used payphones since I am in possesion of a cell phone. If I need to make a call or check my voice mail, I simply leave the system if I am underground and get back in.
However, the Straphangers' intent was to compare the payphones' performance to Verizon's contract terms, which are presumably independent of what Verizon is expected to do on the street.
In Baltimore, Verizon has reduced its pay stations 85%. Most of the pay stations you can still find are independent carriers, who charge widely different rates.
The pay stations in the inner city were converted to outgoing calls only several years ago, as the dealers were using them. The dealers promptly switched to "throw-away" cell phones.
BTW, I beleive the Baltimore subway was wired for cell phones several years ago.
Of course, we have one line, New York has lots more.
But in the subway, you really don't have a choice. A cellphone will work in Penn (and maybe not the subway stations at Penn), at Jamaica Station (not in the subway) and Atlantic Av (??? I never tried it) but that's it. So the payphones are needed until MTA replaces them with cellular access.
Same here, but on the other hand having the subway fully wired for cell phones could serve a safety purpose.
N E V E R!!!!!
It is annoying enough when the train is elevated. To have all those people talking underground would be an assault on th ears.
David
False statement on your part. It has to do with whether Verizon has breached its contract with NYC Transit, and whether NYC Transit needs to enforce its provisions and offer the contract to another provider.
Verison has a contract ?????
If I was Verison, I'd give the TA notice that I was pulling out of the contract, that surely has to be cheaper than maintaining pay fones.
At the Bus depot (Stroudsburg Park-n-ride) the payfone is maintained by some fly-by-night-third-party-provider: It will not do 800 numbers, so your calling card is no good. It has one set of instructions (35c) but another elsewhere (50c) that is hard to find. At the 35c rate your call is disconnected and you loose your 35c since it *did* go through to the fly-by-night-provider.
The other thing is that the damn fone is handicapped-accessible, which means that an adult must get down on his hands and knees to read the sign that explains about the 50c.
My idea for a "pay phone" would be that you would swipe a calling card, metro card, or credit card. There would be no coin slots, so a somwhat less complicated instrument could be used, and it would not be prone to vandal attacks aimed at stealing money.
Elias
CG
This has nothing to do with the New York City subway system per se, and everything to do with a private contractor (Verizon) that is doing business with the agency that runs the New York City subway system (NYCT). By extension, since Verizon blames vandalism for many of the outages, the New York Police Department is involved as well, but, again, the NYPD does not run the subway system.
I can probably come up with another reason or two why this is off-topic, but frankly I don't think it's worth my time.
David
Boston tried to do the same thing a few years back, and it flopped because one of the cellular companies wouldn't participate.
Meandering slightly off-topic, I can sympathize with the poor people who don't want to listen to cell phone conversations on the subway. If this comes to pass, do what I do when confronted with an obnoxious celly user: Take notes of their conversation. :-)
Cheers!
The MTA should have locations spaced for 1900mhz, and when creating a new contract with a wireless provider for use of the spaces, they allow a third party, probably the one that installed the "tower" locations, to install the provider's equipment taking into account the frequency that the provider is licensed to provide. The third party would peobably do basic maintainance, and supervise wireless techs when they have to do specialized work in the tunnels.
This would allow T-mobile USA, Verizon wireless, and ATTWS to coexist peacefully.
If so, then why did you have 2170 posts on RD in the time you posted there? (And, you're still the 14th all-time poster there, although you haven't posted there in nine months)
LOL That's too funny.
www.norml.org
Mark
I know the Shinkansen is famous for being accident free since its inception, but does this count as an accident, and is this possibly the first person ever killed by a Shinkansen?
I wonder if the trains involved were of the 500 series Shinkansen type, which is my favorite type.
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http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20040210a4.htm
http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/20040209p2a00m0dm005000c.html
THUD!
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But this is not the first person killed by the shinkansen. In late 1995 a young student was killed after being dragged along the platform by a Kodama train at Mishima station. It was the original class 0 train.
Source: http://www.h2.dion.ne.jp/~dajf/byunbyun/chrono.htm
December 27, 1995
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes.
Transfer at a terminal or Federal Circle, it'll also go to Jamaica.
You knew nothing? You knew SubTalk has archives that are searchable! Had you searched them you would have found a lot of information about the opening day of AirTrain and how it has been operating since then.
Easier to post a question, and have you rant and rage at me.
Not easier, it's lazier. Easier would have been to search the archives, find the answer, and be done in about 8 minutes. Lazier is to post the question and then come back a while later to find the answer handed to you on a silver platter.
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As you are neither God, nor my boss, I don't accept your attempt to label me, your sarcasm, or your pique, as my due.
In other words, it describes your behavior almost perfectly.
Almost, because in your case you set forth an unsupported assertion first, then bitch and moan and curse when somebody tries to teach you something.
Yu'll grow out of it (I hope).
No, he won't. He has nothing to grow out of. WHEN WILL YOU GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL?
Huh?
The shuttle buses to JFK from Howard Beach and long-term parking are gone ... and if they were people, I'd fervently wish they'd burn in Hell forever. Those buses were evil.
Myself, I play the guitar, both acoustic and electric. I like to write music, though I'm no good at lyrics. Mountain climbing is another favorite pastime, as is travel of any kind. I collect license plates, and love to play with power tools around the house, too. I love science and history, and make my living at both. But my favorite hobby of all, even more so than subways, is comedy of any kind: movies, TV shows, stand-up, music, comic strips, etc.
Others?
Mark
Me? Let's see ... I'm an aviation fan as well as a railfan, with 2,000+ posts on airliners.net in the last couple years. I've also gotten into weightlifting fairly seriously, hitting the gym three or four times a week. I have some thoughts about training to enter powerlifting competitions, but recently I've developed carpal tunnel and have had to cut back a bit. Hopefully it'll clear up soon.
I used to be a very avid reader, devouring books like crazy, but in the last few years I seem to have slowed my pace down somewhat. For what it's worth, the last two books I read were The Portrait of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde and Two Years Before the Mast by Richard Henry Dana, and I'm currently reading Dubliners by James Joyce.
What else? I enjoy watching movies, especially foreign and independent ones, and most of all finding mistakes in them (I'm a Master Nitpicker on nitpickers.com). I used to do quite a bit of hiking, day stuff, not overnight, but since moving to Long Island from Connecticut several years ago I haven't done much. Finding the "great outdoors" on Long Island is not easy! Lastly, weird as this may sound, I've really gotten into watching the bull riding competitons on Outdoor Life Network. Hey, it's no more off-the-wall than being a Trekker!
Mark
My other interests include following college and pro football, college basketball, and soccer. I finally got back into lifting weights and jogging last year after about a two year hiatus. I love traveling and have been to three continents, 11 countries, 26 US states, 2 Canadian provinces and 6 Brazilian states. I also love my current part time job detailing cars, I’ve been doing it since I was 16 and I still enjoy it everyday.
Chuck Greene
Mark
The being a dad part is good; I've done that.
Now, being a grandpop is terrific.
Mark
And right before I go to sleep each night, I have to do at least one crossword!
I also like to go to baseball card shows, though I haven't been to one lately, and if I ever get off the dime I will get that fishing pole out of my trunk and cast off in a local lake.
Oh yeah, I do WORK for a living, too.
Also: working on my web sites, playing PS2 games (especially RotK) and watching baseball when the season starts.
My sig for another message board, I like how it came out despite the fact the lighting on the car isn't quite right:
:)
And always make some time for God too.
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I love to travel in general(i'm scared shit of flying, even though it's fun). I go into NYC alot and ride the ferry, which I always enjoy a lot, sometimes even more than railfanning. I love riding my bike. I also do a lot of internet railfanning, learning about the history of rail in certain areas such as PR, and my favorite, the Central RR of LI. Of course, there's school, which takes up most of my day(all in all, bout 6:30am-4:00PM, plus 2-3hrs of hw, on a good day). I work on the technical crew for school plays, and for "sports night" aka blue and white night, aka a lot of hot high school sluts dancing around. We actually have this years "sports night" comming up, and I just found out I'm working sky cam. That's another thing, I'm big in the TV News club at the high school I go to. My friend and I are supposed to take over next year(provided I don't move to Tampa this summer).
Then if w/e free time I have left, I do the necesary NIMBY bashing, lol.
"Take the J from Chinatown to China"
Airtrain
*watch out for the dragon clips
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Do what I told you a while back - visit a "massage" parlor that advertises in the back pages of the Village Voice. You won't be so desparate afterwards and will find it easier to meet chix.
Railfanning/busfanning is just another method of travel at the most basic level, which is what I like to do, go places, see the sites and people, take pics. If i don't take the bus to one of the downtowns, I'm driving to another city or the country.
Plus reading, TV, and relentlessly calling girls I know. Hopefully I'll add going to the gym real soon....again.
Regards,
Jimmy
If history's your preference (as opposed to fiction) I strongly suggest "Hitler Moves East" followed by "Scorched Earth" both by Paul Carell. Great books featuring some anecdotes of unbelievable carnage of history's greatest single military conflict.
I read Ryan's book on the last days of the third reich titled; "The Last Battle" which featured Gen. Henrici's final heroics against the Soviet Red Army. An interesting fact on Ryan is he gave a great account as the annoucer of the documentary titled; "World War I" which featured many old film clips and stills from the "Great War" 1914-1918. Verdun, The Somme, you name the battle, it was extensive (on PBS). Another great subject may be a book called "The Real Heroes of Telemark", by Ray Mears, which I saw as a movie many years ago. What makes this so interesting is this is about the special forces (Norwegian partisans) who were sent to destroy the German heavy water supply in order to halt production of the first H bomb. I'm going to make it a point to buy it. You mentioned a book called "On To Berlin" is it from the perspective of the western democracies or the Soviets?
You probably missed the author's name for "On to Berlin" in my post because as a military history buff you must know that James Gavin was the commanding officer of the 82nd Airborn. It is his memoirs of his experiances in North Africa (he was the XO then) all the way to the end of the war. Excellent book. I read it 10 years ago.
Okay, so this should be easy: Who is Art Fleming?
You need to phrase your question in the form of an answer :-)
CG
CG
Pinball: Pinball is my favorite hobby above all else. I run a pinball league at an arcade in Dunellen, NJ right across from the Dunellen RVL Train station for 10 weeks twice a year. The owner of the arcade (8 on the Break) is a member of the group (the name escapes me now) that runs the Dunellen Railroad Days from the Dunellen Train Station in September each year. I also participate in another pinball league in Morristown, NJ not far from the Morristown Train Station on the Morristown Line twice a month. Because I have to travel to Dunellen and Morristown by train (using two NJT branches for both destinations), I am able to get in a good bit of railfanning as well. I also collect pinball machines at home (currently own three games). During the year, I go to various Pinball shows and tournaments. I also post to/read a USNET pinball newsgroup.
Recreational math: I like to read about topics in recreational math and I create and solve math puzzles, especially ones that deal with algebra.
Every so often I'll surf the Net for a topic I'm interested in (such as math puzzles).
Computer programming: BASIC and its variations (including Visual Basic) is my favorite computer language. I used BASIC quite a bit in HS (mainly for creating games on the Apple //e computer). I know the basics of Visual Basic Script and have used that in the past, but I would like to learn Visual Basic for Applications and Visual Basic itself. Unfortunately, I haven't done much, if any, computer programming lately.
Listening to fast paced music/sounds and creating various sounds on Cool Edit 2.0: I like to listen to fast paced music/sounds (always have since a kid) and now that I have Cool Edit 2.0, I can create various sounds to my liking, by starting from scratch or using sounds I've recorded from various sources over the years.
Koi
http://www.widos.info
Mark
I guess you do!
We appear to be quite a versatile group!
1]Sports: especially the NFL. If you look at my heart, you will find three FUGLY spots where the flesh has been ripped out.[I`m an Eagles fan]
2]Music: I'm all over the place. From kitschy 60's pop to the latest Hip Hop.
3]Movies: Usually the big blockbusters, as well as other genres like Gangster movies, Sci-Fi, Comedies, Action movies, and some Anime'.
4]TV: my favorite shows are "24", "Smallville", "The Simpsons", "Angel", "Malcolm in the Middle", "Hack", and whatever I find on Cable
5]Traveling and Exploring: This dovetails into my railfanning. Nothing piques my interest mor than going into an unfamiliar place and taking a look around. This year, I hope to go to Boston and Chicago to both railfan and explore both cities. This is on top of my frequent visits to NYC and DC.
6]Last but not least, Computers! I really enjoy surfing the internet, finding out everything ranging from my hobbies, to my vices [yes I DO take a Cyber-walk on the wild side. Anyone who says they do not do it is a big fat liar. I'm brave enough to mention the fact that I go there on a regular basis].
You didn't miss much.
enjoyed James Joyce (Ulysses, Dubliners)
I'm about two-thirds of the way through Dubliners right now. Some interesting stories, that's for sure.
Do people ever learn that a person's life is more important than a replaceable $150 cell phone?
Bullsh!t!. I dropped my glasses on the tracks at Continental Ave in 1988, and I asked nicely for them to be retreived. I was told to buy new glasses, since they weren't worth tying up service to be retreived.
It should be noted that they made him go down there and get it though.
When I was doing PC a while back I had a passenger, pissed at the level of service, pull my phone off my belt and throw it to the roadbed. The only I even tried to retrieve it was after the rush with someone on the platform to flag trains.
And don't think that this problem is with everyday people. Last I worked Grand Central, a T/O jumped down for someone's cell phone after telling the tower, IGNORING the T/D who told him a N/B Local was approaching because the person wasn't willing to wait for the next train. The T/O on the local got quite a scare and the one who jumped down got a reaming from the T/D.
Sometimes people who ought to know better have jumped down to the roadbed to retreive something. They have been lucky nothing has happened to them. Outside of getting yelled at by a boss or doing something in their pants. And I'm sure some workers have been killed or injured going to the roadbed.
I think most people also don't realise it is something like 5 feet from platform to roadbed. Not too many people can climb or jump from one to the other.
There's a Grand Street in Brooklyn, but not in Queens.
http://www.mobilecommerceworld.com/Tmpl/Article.aspx?ID=19721
OFF TOPIC discussion board for RAILFANS
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Today in Transportation History
1935 - The Pennsylvania Railroad started passenger service with its new streamlined electric locomotive, the GG1.
http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/about/roster/gg1.htm
OFF TOPIC discussion board for RAILFANS
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going to Army-Navy game
#4930
pulling freight
Broadway Limited
charter
4800 in Conrail blue at museum
4877
last day of service
?
Whatever floats your boat, dude. I've liked many of your other photos much more than this one...
OFF TOPIC discussion board for RAILFANS
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Hempstead?
CG
What could possibly be the purpose of this timer? Why can't F trains depart Jay Street at full throttle?
And of course, Manhattan-bound A and C trains still leave Jay Street at full speed, even though they have a pretty sharp left turn ahead into High Street.
I wouldn't be surprised if the MTA put new timers between 34th and Grand on the 6th Ave Express track. I hope they don't but you can't be too sure...
I wouldn't be surprised if the MTA put new timers between 34th and Grand on the 6th Ave Express track. I hope they don't but you can't be too sure...
Makes me wonder, what is the slowest stretch of track in regular revenue service? I bet Bergen to Jay makes the top (bottom?) 10.
The speed of trains, while they are moving, is actually greater from Dekalb to Canal via the tunnel than via the bridge. It's only longer in time via the tunnel because of the extra stops and the substantial extra distance.
DeKalb - Canal - ~22, GT15 'til clear of switch, ~20, GT25, GT18
Does anyone know the reason for this decision? It can't have anything to do with track capacities since no line runs at capacity on weekends.
Well I think it makes perfect sence for the N to skip Dekalb since it will ease the congestion on the trains that stop at Dekalb since those trains wont have to worry about other trains coming from other tracks.
Brighton Line riders wanting Broadway service will not have an across the platform transfer at DeKalb as they did between 1968 and 1984.
BRIGHTON WIDERS WANTING BROADWAY SERVICE WILL HAVE DOUBLE THE ACROSS THE PLATFORM TRANSFER AT DEKALB AS THEY DID BETWEEN 1968 AND 1984.
They will have an inconvenient transfer at 34th St, be forced to use the R through the tunnel, a very slow ride, or stay on the B and walk from 6th Avenue to Broadway
Or they can take the Q which most likely will be right behind the B.
I think you should read that brochure. Read it, READ IT WELL!!!
They couldn't take the B behind the Q because it doesn't operate on weekends. What they are doing is giving Brighton Line riders the Chrystie Street connection back only Monday through Friday.
N Broadway Line
What the MTA SHOULD bbe thinking is the opposite. You vcant run the D express on weekends.
Why do you call the D the favored line? The D will be the favored line for passengers traveling between the West End and 6th Avenue; the N will be the favored line for passengers traveling between the Sea Beach and Broadway; the R will be the favored line for passengers traveling between local station.
And even if there were such a thing as a favored line, why should it necessarily be the express? I realize that many SubTalkers think that nobody uses local stations, but the fact is that many local stations are busier than many express stations. You seem to be suggesting that local passengers be automatically excluded from direct access to "favored" destinations (whatever those are).
Ok maybe I shouldn't have said the D is favored but I said it LOOKS like the favored line. And why would I think that I should "shaft" the 4 Av local riders? I know that local stations have more volume [the former Astoria express comes to mind]. Besides why would they run 2 lines via 4 Av express off peak when it was only one for years?
So Likewise on the West End... the (D) owns the line, and the (M) is a part-time visitor.
Clearly the (N) owns the Sea Beach / 4th Avenue Line and the (R) is the Day-time Local.
The "Owners" are LOCAL on their respective lines, and are/become express as they move into the city.
Elias
If the "D" doesn't stop at Dekalb Ave during these hours, then there is no direct 6th Ave service from this station. Passengers would still have to change at 34th St for 6th Ave service. How is that going to be an improvement to service?
When was the last time Dekalb Ave had only 2 routes serving it on weekends (not counting GO's)?
I would also like to know: what is so all-fired important about DeKalb Avenue on evenings and weekends? It isn't a big origin/destination except at elementary/intermediate/high school arrival/dismissal times and maybe at LIU arrival/dismissal times, and as far as I know neither is affected by having no Sixth Avenue service during the late evening and weekend hours. It's a major transfer point, yes, but not a major traffic generator.
Please also explain which laws of physics apply here, and how they apply here. Extra points will be awarded for successfully showing how the changes in the signal system since 1986 have done nothing whatsoever to affect capacity.
David
Go back to the original post and my correction. If 4 track service is being restored, i.e. Broadway and Sixth Avenue access at the same time, then it should be restored 24/7 for all passengers not just for Fourth Avenue passengers. Why should Brighton line riders have Sixth Avenue Service restored only for part time when they had access to both Sixth Avenue and Broadway prior to the MB reconstruction? (And once they even had three services, Sixth Avenue, Broadway and Nassau St at the same time.) It is too much to expect Brighton riders to change at Atlantic (an 8 minute transfer)or 34 St (3 to 5 minutes depending on how close you are to the stairway) when they could have an across the platform transfer at DeKalb. Most people will choose to stay on the Broadway service and walk to Sixth Avenue like they did prior to 1968 unless the weather is bad so they won't benefit at all from 4-track operation.
The MTA's job is to serve the public not do what's easiest for them. Sure it is more work for the trains and crew, but it is the passenger who has to be thought of first. And wasn't it done before when only the B and N only skipped DeKalb during rush hours? If the signal system was changed to not permit it now, how is that an improvement?
No one ever claimed that DeKalb was a major origin / destination so that's not the issue. As far as technical constraints preventing this on weekends, I'm not convinced. If express and local service were provided on the Brighton Line on weekends, then I could see both 4th Avenue expresses skipping DeKalb.
2) Just because switches are available, doesn't mean they have to be used.
3) The signal system still permits the move the SubTalkers want, but at such a slow speed (especially southbound) that it's just not worth doing, especially with more service being provided in the off-hours than was provided the last time there was full service via the Manhattan Bridge.
David
2. Wheel detectors are being installed at least in part BECAUSE some Train Operators have been foolhardy enough to exceed posted speed limits. That said, the switch at Pacific Street is indeed sharp, and I'm guessing (an educated guess) that it was not intended to be used on a regular basis, but rather to get around a stalled train or a reconstruction project.
3. Did not the BMT (and IRT and IND) at one point schedule each line with no regard for how it intermingled with other lines? Were not "bangs" (to use a term Randy would recognize) common, and was the railroad not operated as "first come first serve" at merge/diverge points? Isn't it true that operating the railroad in that way would lead to more SCHEDULED service, but with less safety and perhaps less actual throughput than was scheduled?
David
There is a constellation of factors here.
Standards and especially triplexes could stop faster than today's heavier equipment. Signals built and place to accomodate standards are a tad too close together to provide the same level of safety to Hippos. So now two blocks instead of one is the lead from the red signal to the anticlimber of your leader.
Things like the spacing of the wheelsets and the overswing at the ends and at the belly of new cars is just different from older cars, and require different precautions hen tranversing certain switches.
It is nice to say that "The Old Cars Did It Better" for true as that is the whole railroad was built to the standards set by those cars rather than to the specifications of the newer cars.
Why didn't they build new cars with the physical plant in mind?
I don't know, go ask your mommy.
Elias
Maybe stopping distances are longer but today's equipment is not heavier. Uncontested posts and information on the main website have the overhauled R32 lighter than early IND cars. And even if the R68 if heavier than a Triplex over the same length, which seems doubtful given more axles to distribute the weight over, if working properly all cars should exhibit similar braking. Otherwise schedules should be written differently for an R32 working the R and an R46 working the R. They aren't.
I can't write on whether or not braking has gotten worse over time but rolling stock has generally gotten lighter, not heavier even with the addition of new electronics.
"Signals built and place to accomodate standards are a tad too close together to provide the same level of safety to Hippos."
So emergency braking was better on standards than on the R68? How was this done? Posted recently was a standard emergency braking rate of 3.0 mph/s. How much beter were the old BMT cars?
You will have to read the NTSB report on the Williamsburg Bridge Crash.
The newer trains do have a longer stopping distance. Perhaps it is the composite shoes verses the iron shoes of the older trains.
In any event it seems clear that they had to dumb down the line and the speeds to accomodate the newer trains.
STOOPIT, if you ask me, but there it is.
Elias
There NEVER was a cross-platform connection between Bway and 6th Avenue trains at DeKalb.
One side of the platform serves the Montague Tunnel (ONLY) and the other side serves the Manhattan Bridge (ONLY).
So trains headed for the bridge, if they stop at DeKalb, ALL MUST USE THE SAME SIDE OF THE SAME PLATFORM.
DeKalb Avenue (like Times Square) was initially designed to be a LOCAL STATION, and only Montague Tunnel trains were supposed to stop there.
As Initially designed DeKalb was ONLY a part of the 4th Avenue Subway, and There was no thought or plan to bring Brighton Line Trains into this station at all.
Somewhere during the construction phase a new (Dual Contracts) was let and the Flatbush Avenue Extention was invented. DeKalb, was exxpanded, and what would have been side wall platforms became island platforms. The former 4th Avenue Express Tracks remained as by-pass tracks.
So examine the physical track plant:
1) Brighton Line (2 tracks) has access to the wall track and to the Manhattan Bridge. It *could* also access the tunnel tracks. It *cannot* access the by-pass tracks.
2) The 4th Avenue Line (4 tracks) has access to the station as originally designed. That is Local tracks stopping at the platform have access to the Montague Tunnel, while the Express tracks by-passing the station have access to the bridge.
That *IS* how the plant is designed. (period).
There are switches and there is flexibility, and this flexibility has been used to allow express trains to platform (at the wall track) in DeKalb, and still access the bridge. you, they sure *can* do it. But the railroad will work more smoothly, and with less congestion if they would run it as designed rather than to fit the whims of some riders.
I remember the LONG DELAYS where Brighton Express and Brighton Locals had to merge together at parkside, and then again with trains from 4th Avenue in DeKalb. It was a nightmare.
Yes, it is true, daytime trains will run the plant as designed, in the most optimal manner possible, and in the dead of night, it is a moot point since the (D) and the (N) will both be running Local with one taking to the bridge and the other to the tunnel.
The Problem that everybody is bitching about is a few measely hours between the time that the (B) train stops running and before the (D) moves to the Local track. A time when it would have to merge with both the (R) to get onto the Local Track, and with the (Q) to get onto the Bridge Track. It is a time that still sees a very adequate headway on all of these lines. It also has to cross over these switches at a reduced speed further delaying the lines.
I am sure that the MTA is cognesent of all of these details, as I am equally sure that they have run the math on the dynamics involved, and have determined to not bust chops with the railroad and with the schedule, but to keep the trains moving as freely as possible.
It is quite likely that there are new WDs and other things that will chomp on their scheduling, devices and restrictions that were not in effect the last time that this plant had seen full service.
So this is waht they are going to do, and we will see what will happen. They have bent to the needs of riders before, and they may do so agian. Time will tell.
Elias
You're right about "same side transfer." I shouldn't have said "cross platform." I was using the term loosely since I never heard anyone say "same side" or whatever the technical term is.
You mean DeKalb Avenue caused the problems at Parkside Avenue? I remember the delays all to well. But I remember it only being a problem during rush hours not off-peak. Off peak I remember the delays at a minute or under.
As you say, time will tell if they change their mind.
IIRC, The 4th Avenue Line itself was part of the Dual Contracts, and when it was awarded to the BRT, then the plans were altered to accomodate the BRT.
Had it not been so awarded (but given to the IRT instead) then the big El that you speak of would probly have been built.
Elias
Even Brighton line riders like to go into the village (W 4 St.) during these hours..
And what about weekends?
Dekalb should have 6th avenue and Broadway service 24 hours a day not because it originates traffic, but because it is a great transfer point (it reminds me of nearby Nevins in that respect.) Crossing a 4th avenue express to the Dekalb stop was done for the N train for the last several years during rush hours, and any delays were far outweighed by the benefits (when an express N and local R arrived at Pacific, the R often went first. there was a delay on the N, but it wasn't prohibitive...regular riders often knew to hop on the R to go first) Most Brighton riders would trade a delay on getting into Dekalb to make room for the D over having to do the torturous transfer at Atlantic or 34th.
It can be done. They do it late nights as is. Adding it on weekends is not substantially different. the inconvenience to the MTA for adding this is far smaller than the convenience it would provide. cranks who say otherwise either don't ride the line or were poorly potty trained and think that blindly kissing the butt of authority will finally get them their long awaited "attaboy"
"cranks who say otherwise either don't ride the line or were poorly potty trained and think that blindly kissing the butt of authority will finally get them their long awaited 'attaboy'"
Except for the odd troll, reporter, or student looking for someone to write a term paper for him/her, we're all railfans here. There's no reason for ANYTHING on this board to get personal.
That said, there are sound operational reasons, as well as reasons of convenience for the MAJORITY of customers, for the service to operate the way it does. When the N trains were running via Fourth Avenue Express and Montague Street Tunnel, they made only one move that interfered with other traffic in any way: Northbound from Fourth Avenue Express to Fourth Avenue Local. The other move, to the tunnel track at DeKalb Avenue, didn't interfere with anything because the only other possible move, from Brighton, wasn't being done. (Southbound, the move from the tunnel track at DeKalb to the Fourth Avenue Express track at Pacific Street also involved only one move that would interfere with other traffic -- from Fourth Avenue Local to Fourth Avenue Express -- it was more problematic, because of the wheel detector before Pacific Street, but yes, it was done). In neither case, however, did the move interfere with Brighton service, which stopping on the bridge tracks at DeKalb Avenue WOULD do.
Having Fourth Avenue Express trains stop at DeKalb Avenue would interfere with service on the Brighton Line as well as the Fourth Avenue Line (don't believe me? look at a track map). While it would undoubtedly benefit some riders (including, on occasion, myself), given the volume of service going through the area during all periods except midnights now that the bridge is open, it's just not worth doing. As to the transfer points at 34th Street and Atlantic/Pacific, they're not nearly as bad as some people here are making them out to be, especially 34th Street. Try it some time.
David
Having said that, it is obvious there are 3 solutions to the problem.
1. Run B service except during midnight hours. Probably the most expensive solution and while some maintain there is no enough demand for Brighton express service evenings and weekends, it is at least as necessary as express service on 4th Avenue (see below0 and/or Fulton Street. But it would be somewhat costly; although convenient both for Brighton riders and CPW riders.
2. Run the D trains through DeKalb leaving the N trains on the by pass. David has given his description of why operational this is not desireable; at least in his opinion. Given the lower level of service after 9 PM and during the weekends, I don't think it will overly inconvenience Brighton or R riders.
3. Perhaps the easiest solution, run the D train local from 36th Street starting at 9 PM (although a case could be made whenever the M is not running as there are complaints from some 4th Avenue riders of the cut back in service on the local tracks mid days) and during the weekend. According to the schedule, the express service saves a grand total of 2 minutes by adding the 4 local stops.
It seems to me that everything considered, #3 is by far the least costly least inconvenient and most pragmatic way of resolving this problem.
David
The solution is to find somewhere else to put those R layups. My suggestion: run those trains in service on the D and/or N and leave an equal number of trains behind at Concourse or Coney Island. (So what if they're R-46's or R-32's?)
Have you actually timed it? I did, a few weeks ago, and I was surprised to find that it only took me three minutes, walking at a moderate pace with a few stops for photos.
Don't believe me? Time it yourself and report on your findings.
Granted, 34th isn't that bad at least at the back end (Uptown) , but no one can consider Atlantic / Pacific convenient especially going from Atlantic to Pacific.
Chinese residents of areas served by the Brighton Line (who can also switch to a J at Canal). Chinese residents of the 4th Ave line can take the D from their original stop, or from Pacific.
The ones who are inconvenienced are those going from Brighton Line exactly to W 4th St, but if they are only going approximately to W 4th St they have lots of other options.
I should have said "Brighton riders who are inconvenienced".
Say you get a Q train on a Saturday somewhere on the Brighton Line. Where would you be going that a same-platform transfer to the D is really a big time saver? The answer is: only W 4th Street*. For Grand, change to the J at Canal and take it to Bowery. For Bway Lafayette, change to the R or 6 at Canal and take it to Prince, Spring, or Bleecker. For 34, the Q is closer to street level anyway. For points north of 34th, change to the D at 34th.
OK, so which is a bigger benefit to the public: saving every Brighton - W 4th rider a 5 minute walk at Atlantic, or saving every West End rider 2 minutes on every weekend trip?
Looking at the Saturday northbound schedule, the change at Atlantic is reasonably well coordinated northbound. Both trains run every 8 minutes. A Q gets into Atlantic at approx 7:57 AM and every 8 minutes thereafter. A D gets into Pacific at 8:04 and every 8 minutes thereafter, which will be doable by almost all people.
Maybe NYCT shouldn't have the wheel detectors that slow down the track change so much, but they do. Given those wheel detectors, this looks just like many other cases where the good of the many outweighs the good of the few.
*By the way, W 4th St itself is rarely the destination. It's the neighborhood as a whole. Often there are alternatives. If you're going to NYU, other than the law school, or Washington Square Park, you can change at Canal for an R to 8th St and have a similar walk. If you're going to some restaurant in the west village, it may be easier anyway to change to a 2/3 at Atlantic and a 1 to Christopher at Chambers. If you're going slightly north of the W 4th St station, you might as well change for a 2/3 to W 14th (rear entrance at W 12th) or an L to 6th Ave instead.
As for possible destinations someone might want a "big time saver" for, the same case you make against an easy transfer could be made for not adding the B train at all. By your logic, there is nowhere anyone on Brighton could need to go that they really can't already. I personally have used it to go to Columbus Circle, CPW, and to catch an easy transfer to the Queens E when I am headed to JFK (love that airtrain!) or LGA with luggage. As for the J transfer to Bowery as a substitute for Grand, that has already been tried. It didn't work practically or politically.
We are talking about weekend service here...not commuting. This is lots of leisure and shopping. This is families and old ladies. They may not be the *most* people, but they might well represent the most *need* (elevators aren't going in because they serve the most people, but because they serve the greatest need..
To that end, the idea that the Q to D transfer at Atlantic is somehow reasonably timed is BS. Even if it organically was close, no one in their right mind would suggest those times and places for a timed & planned transfer. The same is true of 34th. *You* might be able to do it easily, but that may not be true of a number of the weekend riding public entitled to reasonable service. Try it with a baby carriage! Even during rush hour, people will give up time for an easy transfer. I see it everyday. LIRR riders at Atlantic pack into the 2/3 for a one stop ride to Nevins to catch a cross-platform transfer to the 4/5 at Nevins. That isn't the only such example.
The convenience offered by weekend by-passes of Dekalb is one side. The convenience offered by having Broadway and 6th avenue express service available 24/7 is on the other. That we opened the bridge specifically to provide 2 line service serves as a strong indicator as to what logic is behind the setup itself. That the D already stops at Dekalb some of the time indicates that it isn't truly impossible. I am not sure I have ever heard the case made that 4th avenue needs 2 super express services on the weekend, the ridership figures should tell us that.
When the bridge has been open, bridge trains have served Dekalb 24 hours a day. Now that 2 sides of the bridge are open, it is not so far out to suggest that both sides of the bridge should continue that precedent.
No, the B train provides Brighton express service, which is justified by the traffic on weekdays.
"The same is true of 34th. *You* might be able to do it easily, but that may not be true of a number of the weekend riding public entitled to reasonable service."
Zillions of riders do this transfer every weekend. You can't expect every transfer to be cross-platform or same platform.
In general you are right but where it is possible to provide convenience at little cost or inconvenience to anybody else, then it should be done if only to provide service that had become a norm and is evidently only being taken away for the convenience of NYCT.
David
Switch to the local track north of Pacific, and come in on the bridge track at DeKalb. Drop off northbound passengers and pick up southbound passengers. Continue north past Myrtle onto the north side bridge lead, 600 feet past the interlocking. Then change ends. Wrong-rail through the DeKalb bypass and switch to the southbound express track north of Pacific. Ta da!
Well, the signals probably wouldn't allow it, and I don't know if there were 600 feet of track past the interlocking during the bridge construction. Even if so, it's a stretch.
Remember Q passengers will not need the N as both will operate via Broadway and those Brighton Line Passnegers who need 6th Ave service can now switch at Atlantic Ave/Pacific Street which has been rebuilt.
Thank You
1-Weekend service will now operate every 8 minuates instaead of the old 10 minuate headway
2-Because of the shorter headway track changes will slow down the operation of any trains that stop at DeKalb Avenue because of a double switch as follows:
a)From Express to local track north of Pacific
b)At split north of DeKalb Ave just before the bridge
Remember Q passengers will not need the N as both will operate via Broadway and those Brighton Line Passnegers who need 6th Ave service can now switch at Atlantic Ave/Pacific Street which has been rebuilt.
Typical MTA mindset. We don't want to do it, so make the people adjust. It's 100% crap.
: )-
As I previously stated in other posts, increased frequency does not reduce the walk or having to take the stairs.
Maybe if service were reduced back to 6 tph (ten-minute headways), NYCT would be willing to give it a shot. Do you think (hypothetically) that it would be worth it? ("Hypothetically" because it's too late to make such a change before next week.) Just curious.
As many of us know, the southbound express track south of 36th is used for R layups on weekends. Currently, the weekend N express runs express on the local south of 36th. That inevitably causes delays somewhere, with the N, R, and W all sharing a track through 36th.
Assuming the layups aren't going somewhere else, the problem will end next week, when only the N and R will have to share the local track -- the D can stay on the express track and switch to the West End line from there. If the D ran local, then the D, N, and R -- at decreased headways -- would have to share the local track through 36th.
Assuming the layups aren't going somewhere else, the problem will end next week, when only the N and R will have to share the local track -- the D can stay on the express track and switch to the West End line from there. If the D ran local, then the D, N, and R -- at decreased headways -- would have to share the local track through 36th.
So if I get what you're saying correctly, the D, N and R could share the local track if it were to have decreased headways [although that probably won't happen].
(If only they could find somewhere else to dump those layups!)
See my other post.
(Actually, at 8-minute headways, they might be in service. How many trains are currently laid up there on Sundays? If increased R service alone wouldn't use them all, put the rest on the N or D, which can leave behind some of their usual cars in their respective yards.)
Those which lay up there all weekend can stay in Queens. The overnight layups can continue.
Perhaps those trains could run in service over the weekend on the D or (more likely) the N, which could in turn leave an equal number of cars in the yard. R-46's on the D and N would raise eyebrows, but a train is a train.
With the new and improved transfer at Atlantic and Flatbush, I guess they decided an easier transfer from the Q to the D was not worth all those switches.
A case could be made, however, that the D should stop at DeKalb overnight, when the N will be running through the tunnel and there are fewer Qs.
I really believe that NYC Transit never considered the implications of this in the service plan. And it is not just inconvenient for Brighton riders, it is inconvenient for all riders using DeKalb Avenue as there is no 6th Avenue service being restored there as existed before 2001 when the temporary closure was announced to finish the bridge work.
What if somebody gets on at DeKalb wishing to go to Grand Street? Or Broadway Lafayette? Or W 4th Street? Nobody can argue these are not important stations for a good number of people; perhaps not the majority. And please none of this let them walk as there are nearby Broadway stations.
This is nowhere the same thing as people complaining there is no Broadway service on the Culver line...there is no physical way to provide Broadway service on the Culver line. There is a simple physical way to provide Sixth Avenue service at DeKalb and as others have pointed out, for a long time on weekends the by pass at DeKalb was not used and all service stopped at DeKalb.
So for somebody getting on the train at DeKalb on a Saturday afternoon heading for W 4th Street and the village, does it make sense for them to have to back track to Atlantic or Pacific...and transfer when service could easily be provided? Let the N continue to bypass DeKalb, the Q will provide Broadway service at DeKalb. But to have no Sixth Avenue service at DeKalb sucks for many people and no amount of rhetoric about surveys or changing populations or preferences of Brighton riders can change that.
What if somebody gets on at Lorimer Street, or Metropolitan Avenue, or Clinton-Washington and wishes to get off at one of those stations. I guess they will just have to change trains somewhere, right?
If they have decided that Brighton and DeKalb Avenue trains will not serve Sixth Avenue at certain hours, then they don's serve them. If you are coming from Canarsie, Flatbush, or Flushing, you also gotta change trains. GET OVER IT!
Sheesh! : ) Elias
Here service that had existed for a long time, under the guise of an improvement, is being taken away when there is no discernible reason to do so both from a historical view point and a present day view point.
All BMT lines apparently serviced DeKalb during non peak hours in the past. Since there is onoy one service going into DeKalb on the outer tracks (the Q) on weekends, I still don't see what the big deal is to switch West End service onto the local tracks ("interfering" only with the R and then merging with the Q (one line) and then having the Q and D unmerge by the old Myrle Avenue station (correct me if I'm wrong but that's the set up right?). I am sure with computers and the like that we have today and simulations, NYC Transit can come up with a workable plan to resolve this one issue in their service plan.
But then again, often times one believe there is a direct route from point A to point B that is convenient to many people and there is the MTA route where it is okay to ride 1 stop back, walk through a maze of tunnels for 8 minuter and then proceed to your destination. Maybe I'm dull, but isn't that what's happening here??????
In fact, they only skipped DeKalb rush hours.
So why can't the D run up the 4th Avenue local tracks and switch to the A/B tracks at DeKalb on weekends?
There's no reason to make the more popular line (West End) have local service. The D CAN run express and stop at DeKalb.
For the three months in 1990 that the N ran over the bridge, it also ran express on 4th Avenue, weekends and weekdays alike.
And before that brief episode, the N ran express on 4th Avenue evenings and weekends only. (Odd, no?)
So running only one local on weekends is a departure from one of the few consistencies we've had over the past 13 years. That's not to say it necessarily shouldn't happen, but it's a change and it should be treated as one.
Two expresses via 4 Av in the offpeak, now that doesn't make sense, besides it doesn't save much time ANYWAY b/c trains routinely get held at Pacific in both directions then you have the timer south of bypassing 25 St then being held again at 36 St. The D would be a more logical choice to run via 4 Av local b/c you already have the Q running via Broadway and the bridge in the off peak and gives people at Dekalb a easy across the platform transfer. The way it is currently, both lines at Dekalb are for B'way only, I understand that there may be complications but it's logical.
And before that brief episode, the N ran express on 4th Avenue evenings and weekends only. (Odd, no?)
I STILL don't understand that to this day. I think R trains had more service back then than it does now, still it made no sense to have the N in that mysterious pattern.
4th av local stations aren't exactly screaming: "we need more service!", even during rush hour. If you want to make another train run local, it should not be the more popular train line.
But then you have THREE lines heading towards Broadway stopping at Dekalb. That's why the D is more logical, I wouldn't want to walk through Pacific/Atlantic or transfer at 34 St if its possible to have an across the platform transfer. And I still say that 2 express lines via 4 Av offpeak is not needed besides people have two options at Union, 9, Prospect and 25. It doesn't save anything more than half the time to begin with and N trains won't have to switch over to the local heading north from 59 St which would save time, may not be much but better than nothing.
4th av DOES NOT need extra local service.
And I believe that won't happen, why most likely b/c they won't try that. If they do that fine but the D via 4 Av local may turn out to be a better option.
And once the D is stopping at DeKalb, there's arguably no reason to then switch it back to the express track, since it takes no longer to just run local. Running the N local doesn't solve any problems.
W trains are hardly crush loaded on weekends -- unless my experience is atypical, most seats in Brooklyn are empty. From the perspective of satisfying the masses, it hardly matters whether it's the D or the N that runs express, since the masses are on neither.
(But I'm glad to see that at least a few of us are keeping local service in mind. Perhaps there's hope for this board after all!)
Not really. Local trains already enter the station slowly. Now, it's true that this switching would cause lost time, but not enough to cancel the entire express run.
If you want to add an extra local route, make it the Sea beach. But 4th avenue really doesn't need extra local service anyway.
I don't remember which train arrived at 36th first, but one of the trains had to wait for the other.
From Pacific BMT platform to Atlantic BMT platform, with a number of stops for photos: 3 minutes.
From Atlantic BMT platform to Pacific BMT booth, with only one or two stops for photos: again, 3 minutes.
I wasn't walking fast.
For those who have difficulty with stairs (and there sure are a lot of them), there will soon be elevators, and with any luck they might be working when you need to use them.
The new staircase at the Panama Canal is wide, but it isn't wide enough for two (full-width) escalators plus a staircase (in case the escalators ever have to be closed for repairs). Could it have been made wide enough for escalators within budget? I have no idea. It's also somewhat on the short side for an escalator, although there are shorter ones elsewhere (like at the south end of Herald Square IND).
I still think the D should stop at DeKalb when the B isn't running, but it isn't nearly the big deal that some of you are making of it. At the very least, it'll suffice until May.
And from Atlantic to Pacific you also have the up hill walk in addition to the three stairways which is tiring for the elderly.
I think there should have been one up escalator along with the stairway in the Panama Canal. (I thought I was the only person who called it that. Be nice if the MTA put up some art related project there actually naming it.) Considering the nuumber of times this project has been postponed, at least for ten years, it was the least they could have done.
Time it yourself, then.
Don't forget the time to get to the stairways.
Add a maximum of 2 minutes, then. That's how long it takes to walk two blocks at 3 mph.
Not everyone knows which car to ride so as to be near the stairway.
I'm sure those who have to make this transfer frequently will learn quickly.
I'm sure if there is any crowding on the stairway or platform the trip would also be longer.
Why would you expect the crowding to be any greater than it is now, or than it was when I ran this experiment?
And from Atlantic to Pacific you also have the up hill walk in addition to the three stairways which is tiring for the elderly.
It's tiring for everyone. Despite that, I did it in 3 minutes, at a moderate pace, with stops to take photos. Those who find it particularly tiring are welcome to use the elevators.
I think there should have been one up escalator along with the stairway in the Panama Canal. (I thought I was the only person who called it that. Be nice if the MTA put up some art related project there actually naming it.) Considering the nuumber of times this project has been postponed, at least for ten years, it was the least they could have done.
I wish there could have been an escalator, but the space just isn't wide enough. Imagine the overcrowding when the escalator has to be closed for repairs!
The only reason the W does this is because "N" trains are short-turning at Pacific. There's no reason for a bridge train to run local during the day.
The W also runs via tunnel right now.
Are current MTA personnel so incompetent as to be unable to handle a switching move which was done flawlessly for 70+ years?
1. Changes to the signal system since the Manhattan Bridge was last fully open, including installation of a wheel detector in the vicinity of Pacific Street, have reduced capacity in favor of added safety;
2. There will be much more service provided through DeKalb Avenue in the evening hours than was being provided the last time the Manhattan Bridge was fully open, making slow movements delay more trains than they would have in, say, the early 1980s;
3. Having D trains stop at DeKalb Avenue creates a net disbenefit to West End riders since the vast majority don't need to stop there to get where they're going.
David
1. Changes to the signal system since the Manhattan Bridge was last fully open, including installation of a wheel detector in the vicinity of Pacific Street, have reduced capacity in favor of added safety;
2. There will be much more service provided through DeKalb Avenue in the evening hours than was being provided the last time the Manhattan Bridge was fully open, making slow movements delay more trains than they would have in, say, the early 1980s;
3. Having D trains stop at DeKalb Avenue creates a net disbenefit to West End riders since the vast majority don't need to stop there to get where they're going.
Your arguments make very good sense in the evening hours. Anyway, the B runs much of the evening.
But how about the weekend? Has NYCT committed to a higher frequency of train service than one per 8 minutes each on N, R, Q, and D? If we're talking 6 minute intervals, your arguments make good sense. If we're talking 8, they don't really.
To have a D stop at Dekalb, it can't arrive concurrently with a Q because it uses the same platform. It also can't arrive concurrently with an R because it has to switch to the local track south of Dekalb. But if intervals are one of each per 8 minutes, we're still only talking 21.5 tph stopping at Dekalb.
As for point 3, since when did the rider surveys say that the "vast majority" of weekend West End riders don't want 6 Ave destinations? Majority, yes, but vast majority?
Huh? He said that the vast majority of West End riders don't need to stop at DeKalb to get where they're going. West End riders will have 24/7 direct access to 6th Avenue.
The idea of the D stopping at Dekalb on weekends is so that Brighton riders have easy access to 6th Ave destinations. So the issue about vast majority is: is it true that the "vast majority" of Brighton riders don't want access to 6th Ave.?
David claims they did a survey and it showed something on the order of 60-40 that Brighton riders preferred Broadway. David is a fine honest person and I have no reason to doubt him.
However, having said that, the survey was done at a time the only service was Broadway service. Perhaps if the survey had been done when the only service was Sixth Avenue service, the results would have been different.
But even taking this at face value, 60-40 is hardly a vast majority. Simple common sense tells you that there are many destinations along the Sixth Avenue line such as Grand Street, W 4th Street, Columbus Circle, Yankee Stadium which would be a weekend destination of many Brighton riders and some riders alighting at DeKalb (it is not just a Brighton problem).
Now the attitude of David and some others and NYC Transit is, no big deal. Just change at Atlantic (a very very inconvenient transfer in terms of distance, something like 5 to 8 minutes) or at 34th Street which is not that much of a shlep but certainly not as convenient as a 1 train ride or a simple wait for the next train transfer. What they simply don't get is this is a vast change in service patters that have existed since 1967 not based on vast population changes but based on what NYC Transit deems to be more efficient for itself the way I see it.
Do remember that before all this mess started, B train service on the West End ran 7 days a week perhaps not all the way up in Manhattan but West End riders always had access to 6th Avenus service and if they wanted Broadway service they switched to the N (do remember for much of this time there was no Manhattan Bridge service to Broadway).
So, obviously this is a big service cut back as the B will not run on weekends. Personally, I think that Brighton ridership could warrant express service except during late night hours much like Fulton Street warrants express service in Brooklyn except during late night hours. But you'll get the usual bs from them about service patters and survey and it's not so terrible if passengers have to stand during non rush hours.
Okay, money is short. But it won't cost them one red cent extra when service is light to switch the D over to stop at DeKalb during the time B is not running; something that has been done often in the past to provide more convenient service to the large minority (at least 40% if not more) of Brighton riders and also riders who use DeKalb who have had their 6th Avenue service jerked away from them and no amount of rhetoric, and I really do have an open mind, has changed my opinion on this one bit.
Thanks, but I never claimed percentages, only that a majority of off-hour Brighton Line riders (and that includes weekends) prefer Broadway to Sixth Avenue. And again, while analysis was conducted, it did not involve "man in the street"-type surveys. It involved methodology that is much less likely to be biased.
The cited service patterns have not existed since 1967. In fact, they existed pretty much untouched from 1967 to 1986, but have not really existed at all since 1986, except for three months or so in 1990. In that time, people have been born, people have died, people have retired, people have entered school and left it. Is NYCT to assume that everyone who was riding the subway in 1967 (or even 1990) is still riding it, let alone still riding it at exactly the same times to exactly the same destinations?
In addition, the subway system itself has changed, even since 1990. There is no longer a terminal station at 57th Street-Sixth Avenue, for example, which changes the dynamic as far as what can run where. There have also been changes to the signal system. And, by the way, Yankee Stadium is closed six months out of the year and half the time during the six months it is open, so it's probably not wise to base any kind of regularly scheduled service pattern on what happens at that particular destination.
As far as no B on weekends being a "big cutback," I can't see how. There hasn't been regularly scheduled Brighton express service in 40+ years. Jobs that used to have a Saturday half day don't anymore. And as to the idea of running Brighton express service later into the evening, bring it on -- I'm a Brighton rider who uses an express station and I'd love it. I don't see it happening, though -- I ride during the evening hours occasionally and don't see wall-to-wall people. Should loading guidelines be exceeded during the evening hours, I don't think it would be too difficult to schedule an additional trip on the local in the appropriate hour or hours -- it's unlikely that any more than that would be needed to solve the problem.
David
I myself have been wondering why the V and W will run evenings, giving Astoria two locals, Queens Blvd. 3 locals, and CPW was seen as warranting evening B service for two locals, but to extend it to the Brighton, they take the evening servce away from CPW.
(And on 4th Ave. the N begins running local way before the M quits, providing 3 locals, then the W begins running local while both the N and R are still running, also providing 3 locals.)
Why do they abhor the Brighton getting extended service like these other lines? --to the point of taking it away from another line just so the Brighton won't have it? How do they know there would be so few people? When I worked over there in the PM's I saw plenty people on the local past the time the exp. stopped running. The other lines I mentioned aren't packed at those times.
I ride the Q at times in the later evenings and I don't see why the B express can't run past 9:30pm, there's enough demand for it, just run it every 10-12 minutes. Would it happen, I really don't see it but then again anything could happen.
D 205th St.-Concourse-CPW-6th Av.-Brighton local-Coney Island 24/7 (morning rush 12 tph)
Q 57th St.-Broadway express-Bridge-Brighton Express-Brighton Beach 16/5 (morning rush 7 tph)
M Metropolitan Av.-Myrtle Av.-Bway Bklyn Exp.-Nassau-Brighton (express PP to KH, then local to Coney Island) rush-hours only (morning 5 tph northbound, 6 or 7 tph southbound)
B 168th St.-Wash. Hts.-CPW-6th Av.-4th Av. exp.-West End-Bay Parkway rush hours (9 tph)
TT Eastern Parkway/Broadway Junc.-Bway Bklyn. local-Nassau St.-4th Av. loc.-West End-Coney Island (rush, midday, evening)(morning rush 6 tph), Chambers St.-Coney Island all other times.
N Astoria-Broadway express (but stopping at 49th St.)-4th Av. exp.-Sea Beach-Coney Island
(10 P.M. to 6 A.M. and all weekend local all the way) (morning rush 9 tph plus put-ins from Astoria to Whitehall)
R Continental Av. to 95th St. (as prior to Chyristie)
J/JJ 168th St.-Jamaica to Broad St. (J exp. rush and mid-day peak direction express from Eastern Pkwy/Bway Junction to Essex St., JJ local all other times)
After completion of the 57th/6th Av. station, the B would have become the full-time West End service and the TT the rush-hour supplement, with Bway-Bklyn local K service to 57th/6th rush and mid-day.
All 3 reasons do not justify not having the D stop at Dekalb when the B isn't running. The D would have to share the track with only one other route between Pacific and the mouth of the bridge, the R, then the Q. Maximum capacity on these tracks exceeds combined D/R and D/Q service. It can be done.
David
Is the need to balance load the reason? Recall that I solved this problems by running a few Z trains on the Brighton in the peak hour, and that back in the day the M ran on the Brighton.
Obviously.
Currently, during rush hours, 8-9 Manhattan bound N trains per hour switch to the local track north of Pacific, merging onto a track which already has 8-9 R and 6-7 M trains per hour (that's 14 to 16 TPH). Weekend headways would be considerably less. How can the MTA claim something can't be done when that something is already being done?
B. While there is a problem northbound, it's worse southbound, which is where the service levels would be greater on weekday evenings between the time the B quits and the midnight hours (when D trains will be stopping at DeKalb anyway). I pass through DeKalb southbound just after 3 PM on a normal weekday, and most times any train I see on the southbound "tunnel" track (the one I got off and perhaps one or two more) has to sit there for a minute or two (which in the subway is a good long time) to wait for the leaving signal to clear -- and again, let me emphasize, that's MIDDAY. So, it's being done, certainly, but not very well.
David
Needless unless that is where they have to get off.
David
Even in rush hour, this is true of just about every stop on the entire subway system except possibly Grand Central on the 4 and 5.
Unlike commuter trains, which tend to dump almost everyone at the last stop, subway trains are meant to take on or discharge only a relatively small percentage of their ridership at each station. This is especially true nights and weekends when the ridership pattern isn't so heavily concentrated on getting to and from midtown Manhattan.
The only reasonable argument I can see for having the D skip a significant transfer station such as Dekalb on weekends is that somehow the signaling has been so badly messed up that it can't handle the 21-24 tph of R plus D plus Q going through the station.
And that would be saying that NYCT made a major mistake, since presumably they didn't deliberately degrade a route to way under 30 tph.
Please note that the trend of NYCT is toward increasing transfers, not decreasing them. NYCT has spent major money on transfers in recent decades, such as Court Square, 6th Ave/42nd, etc., and is contemplating spending money on Bleecker/Bway Lafayette and Jay/Lawrence. This is a step back.
Let's imagine it is the weekend and you are a Q rider. If you are going to the Upper East Side you are better off on Broadway, with its Lex transfers at Canal and Union Square. From Madison Square north, the Broadway and 6th Avenue lines are one block away from each other, so that's basically a wash, and there is the transfer at Herald Square. On 14th Street, if you are going to 6th Avenue at 14th Street you can transfer to the L, and still make only one transfer.
That leaves West 4th Street as the one desination 6th Avenue service is better for.
All I can say is, I hope OP thought about this service pattern long and hard. 24 months from now, God help them if they try to change it.
The correction for this problem is to extend (B) service hours, not moving (D) service to the local tracks. They can sneak that correction in any time they want, and nobody will notice the difference unless they want to get off at one of three 6th Avenue Stations not readily accessed from a coresponding Broadway Station.
Elias
David
And as you pointed out, you, as a frequent Brighton Line rider, have a vested interest. But, to mention the obvious, as a TA employee you cannot publicly voice dissent from TA policy. And Subtalk is a public forum.
Therefore, I and others cannot expect you to come out publicly and agree that cutting back B service from 11 PM to 9:30 PM at 2/22 is ill-timed at best. The B is a one-directional line currently (midtown to Wash. Hts.) and if it would remain that way on 2/22, I could understand the cutback. But come 2/22 it will become a bi-directional line, Brighton Beach to Wash. Hts. and will therefore service fare-paying passengers in both directions. Even now, the Q diamond operates later into the evening than will the bi-directional B. Your employer is pulling a fast one here. As I said, I cannot expect you to voice dissent publicly.
David
It might even be doable before the May pick, but don't count on it.
David
David
Operationally, you could route the D to the local track between Pacific and DeKalb on weekends, but the impracticality of this action for Manhattan-bound service is explained below. The situation is somewhat better going southbound, but not by much for the same reason. In addition, the MTA is becoming more averse to heavy switching operations unless they serve greater numbers in key sitiuations - one practically has to take them to court to get them to change this practice, and simply to give Brighton line passengers access to Sixth Avenue services on weekends will not get them to budge.
Both the D and Q are expresses to Midtown, so one-seat Midtown access cannot really be an issue - the transfer to the local for better Midtown access will have to be made in any case whether it's at Dekalb, Canal (Q), West 4th/Bway-Lafayette (D), or a 34th (both). The D has better access to the LES, but who from West End is going there (same goes for Brighton passengers, and they need a transfer to the J off-peak to make it to the LES); that cannot be an issue either. Finally, due to Manhattan geography, Broadway approaches Sixth Avenue the further north you go, and the lines cross each other at two points, one with a stop being a walk from the other (Bway-Lafayette to Prince, a local stop in the latter case); all stops on both lines are within walking distance from each other and are relativly near major attractions nestled between them.
True if the signal system would cause delays as to mess up service on both lines. Still not convinced. You say the situation is slightly better southbound. Earlier on someone said (I don't feel like doing the research to find out who) the situation is worse southbound. Which one is it?
"...so one-seat Midtown access cannot really be an issue."
The issue was never one seat ride. It is stairs with a long walk or no stairs. And yes there are other options like the IRT all involving stairs or extra walking which some people find rather difficult. For some it doesn't really matter.
I also think it is more important to provide Sixth Avenue service from the Brighton Line on the weekends than in the evening since we're only talking about a couple of hours. It would be great if the B could run later, but that has to be justified economically. You have to look at the ridership numbers which I don't have.
David
The safety issue is one that affected the entire system and was discovered following the Williamsburg Bridge accident of 1995. A consultant's study found that there were locations within the subway system where a train going into emergency could not stop in time to avoid hitting its leader. (NOTE: This is public information -- the accident investigation is documented on the NTSB's website.) These deficiencies are being addressed in several ways, including the removal of field shunting capability from the subway fleet, the modification of signals, and the installation of wheel detectors.
David
The WDs do NOT protect the switch. They protect the speed at which the WHOLE train may cross the switch or what ever feature the WD is protecting.
It is likely enough that the WDs are only active when the diverting route is aligned.
Elias
David
Aren't there timers there anyway? What do they need a wheel detector for?
Assuming we're still talking about the s/b local to express xover at Pacific, the answer is No, there are no timers there.
Timers only enforce the speed of the front of the train - once you have cleared the last timer in a sequence, there is nothing to stop a T/O from wrapping it up (ride the 60 St tube for an example). If the timers are on a curve and the T/O does this, the people in the last car will feel it as they get thrown all over the car.
Wheel detectors enforce the speed of the entire train by slowing the train down as it approaches the switch and then keeping it at that speed until the whole train has cleared the area. The 'benefit' of the WD is that, when the switch is set for the straight line-up, the WD is inactive, allowing the train to move through the area at a normal speed. If there were timers instead, they would always be active, forcing trains to slow down no matter which way they were going.
Thank heavens the MTA is finally testing it on the Canarsie Line.
Diverging speed limit over the switch (assuming the complete lack of WDs) - GT 15 leaving DeKalb until immediately prior to the switch points when it instantly drops to 10 mph, which would then need to be maintained until the 10 car stop marker at the south end of Pacific.
Limit over the switch with WDs installed - GT 15 leaving DeKalb; 15 for the first WD; second WD maintains 10 mph from there, over the switch, to the WD END sign in Pacific St station.
The last speed detection point is well north of the station, on the crossover somewhere, so just count 120 columns, and wrap! (and then stop, no real point to it!)
"Just count 120 columns" he says. {snicker, snicker} How many simultaneous things can you do? I'm already (well, was) watching the idiots on the platform (to make sure they stay there); watching a (occasionally functioning) speedometer; watching for the WD End sign, so I can relax. Now I get offered "count 120 columns", which, while theoretically correct, doesn't allow for where the big gap from the n/b to s/b crossover is. 8-)
1. There have been signal system changes made in the name of safety, including the installation of a wheel detector southbound entering Pacific Street.
2. There will be more service in the off hours than there was the last time full Manhattan Bridge service was operated.
David
David
Suppose you get on a DOWNTOWN (N) train in Astoria....
You go over the bridge you are now all of a sudden headded UPTOWN again.
North and South stays the same (unless your are headed east and west : )
NO... Thats not right! You get on a train at 95th Street and you go UPTOWN to 36th Street! I don't think So.
Downtown Brooklyn is FULTON STREET!
Go east or south in Brooklyn, and you are going UPTOWN!
BMT always specified City Bound Trains.
On the Southern Division... you went to the City or you went to Coney Island.
: ) Elias
Of course the BMT agrees. They were running trains to Downtown Brooklyn long before it became a suburb of Manhattan. Remember: in those days the BRT went across the bridges and ended right there. and *that* was DOWNTOWN!
: ) Thanks!
Do you mean a Queens-bound R passing through Manhattan or a Brooklyn-bound R passing through Manhattan? Both are called Manhattan-bound at some point during their trip.
I don't know if there's a formal exception on the M; there'd better be an informal one.
A year or two ago, during a Williamsburg Bridge single-track GO, I asked someone which track was closed, and he told me that Brooklyn-bound trains were wrong-railing. I had no idea which direction he meant -- Brooklyn-bound as in heading directly into Brooklyn, or Brooklyn-bound as in destined for the Brooklyn terminus?
No. When you're leaving Manhattan, you're going downtown until the point of departure from the island. Then, you're going into Brooklyn, or going into Queens. From anywhere in south Brooklyn, you're going downtown, midtown or uptown, or whatever, as per that location on Manhattan Island. If you're leaving from Fort Hamilton Parkway on the Sea Beach, you never consider using the word "...town" for Brooklyn locations, except downtown Brooklyn itself.
There is no "uptown" in Brooklyn.
But Dekalb Av will have two services instead of three in the off hour and BOTH lead to Broadway only. Also are you talking about all lines that are involved with the Manny-B service? I know that Q service will most likely remain at 8 minutes headways but from what I'm reading, the R will also have increased service to 8 minute headways.
N Broadway
W Broadway Local
Besides your shouting, (and nasty language) : )-
The Brighton Express NEVER goes to Coney Island.
The (B) train terminates at Brighton Beach
Only the (Q) (Brighton Local) Goes all the way to Coney Island.
OK, that is not what you would expect?
Get Over it, that is the way the tracks are built.
Is an Express needed 24/7? No it is not.
If a Brighton Rider NEEDS to get to 6th Avenue, they can take the Franklin Shuttle at Parkside, the (A) or (C) train on Fulton, and then change to the (F) at Jay Street.
Sheesh!
: ) Elias
Taking 3 extra trains is convenient? I don't think so :-). People should just transfer at 34 St or Atlantic Av.
Of Course, you *could* take the (A) to Brodway Junction, the (J) to Parsons, and come back on the (E). That *would* work too, I suppose.
: ) Elias
Of Course, you *could* take the (A) to Brodway Junction, the (J) to Parsons, and come back on the (E). That *would* work too, I suppose.
And I believe people have actually done this :-).
So the plan doesn't offer a one-seat ride (or same-platform transfer) from every possible origin to every possible destination at all times and at all costs. Is that really a fatal flaw? Is that a reason to scrap the whole thing? I don't think so.
The issues are as follows:
Can it be done (D stopping at DeKalb weekends and maybe evenings)without adversely affecting service or is the MTA just not willing to do it because it's more complicated for them?
(Some cite safety concerns or track / signalling constraints.)
Should the service span of the B be extended further?
Should both 4th Avenue and Brighton Line passengers benefit from 4 track operation at all times or just 4th Avenue passengers?
Should or could Brighton passengers be given a same platform transfer or walk stairs and in some cases long distances?
Should the MTA do what's best for itself or what's best for the passenger?
Will the MTA modify its plan if there is public outcry?
Your assessment of Second Avenue is accurate in hindsight but at the time I don't think the Lower East Siders realized they were jeopardizing the whole project by insisting on one phase rather than two and "the cuphandle." If you want to place blame on why Second Avenue was not and maybe will never be built (although the MTA seems committed unless the Flushing Extension wins out in a battle for scarce funding) the blame goes to Mayor Wagner who quietly diverted the Second Avenue funds in the 1950s to maintain the 15 cent fare for far too long. If he hadn't done that we'd all be singing a different tune now because it would have been up and running by now and we'd be talking about fixing the broken tile instead.
If Transit were truly interested only in operational convenience, then everything through DeKalb would be straight-railed (Brighton to 6th Avenue and 4th Avenue to Broadway, or vice-versa) with no merging or diverging.
Instead, the goal was to develop a pattern which would provide the greatest benefit to the greatest number of people while inconveniencing the fewest. This one comes quite close; it should be given a chance to work, and can always be refined later.
This includes traffic counts and perhaps a simple postcard survey asking some a few very specific questions at a few key points. The first few weeks after the change are critical. After that point, regular riders will begin to shift their travel routes if things become too inconvenient. (This applies to all aspects of the plan, not only this issue.) For example, some people livng between Coney Island Ave and the Brighton line may switch to the F to obtain direct 6 Ave or upper west side service if that is what they want. (I am in no way suggesting that most Brighton riders prefer Sixth Avenue over Broadway.) This data should be compared to data taken before the change takes effect.
SSHHHHH, don't tell anyone!
Regards,
Jimmy 8^)
Shhhhhh!
#3 West End Jeff
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
wayne
No, only kidding. They're only laying up at 76th St.!
No for shame. :)
Let's review what we all know to be true.
It's the centennial year, it might make sense to restore some more cars.
We all know what cars are still exist.
The MTA/museum is asking for R1/9 parts. I've gotten two fliers already in the mail.
Someone posted just yesterday their observations about car movements at CIY, and noted 381 and 1300 are no longer there.
I'll leave the rest as an exercise to the reader.
Joe jumped the gun. They are at 207. They are being evaluated. No work yet. I want that made perfectly clear.
Bill Wall called it a "possible Phase One Rehab" but they are a long way from being ready even for that. It sounded like there was a lot missing, and much of it due to on-property vandalism and/or theft. Above all, there were jurisdictional issues wherein these two are actually owned by Railway Preservation Corp. and not the NYC Transit Museum. Some type of merger of assets will evidently be necessary to get them in the existing museum train.
Hoping for later trips, definitely in time for the 100th Anniversary.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
With that in mind, how long are the airtrains, and how long COULD they be, based on the length of hte platform?
OFF TOPIC discussion board for RAILFANS
RailfanWindow.com Gallery of Photos
What are the dimensions and the holding capacity of the cars.
Jimmy
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
The original destination sign rolls on the Rohr cars were delivered from the manufacture with Dulles Airport on them. The signs displayed Dulles Airport, white text on a black field on both the inside and outside sign boxes.
John
PS
I am still waiting on my source inside WMATA that will get all of the destination codes.
John, have you been on the rehabbed Bredas yet?
36 sticks in my head, my source inside WMATA reminded me that 34 was still the code for Dulles Airport in his last e-mail.
John, have you been on the rehabbed Bredas yet?
Last time I road a WMATA train was at the rodeo last spring, so the answer is no. I did go up to Baltimore three weekends ago to do some field observation on the Metro for a track map that I am preparing. I might get a chance this weekend as I am going up to Leisure World to visit one of my model railroad buddies that I have not seen for more then a year.
John
Mark
Some where in my WMATA collection of Metro Memo’s, shoot it might even be in Ronald Deiter’s book there is a photo of one of the Rohr cars being unloaded off a TOFC car at Brentwood (B99) with the white on black Dulles Airport being displayed in the sign box.
I just wish back then I had taken note of all of the station names that were on the rolls. I can recall the many times just watching one of the broken signs rolling from one end to the other and back and seeing all of the future stations and blank spots in the rolls.
John
Mark
How right you are.
John
Question; Other than providing the engineer with 3 times the space of the traditional cab, what is the virtue of the transverse cab on the LIRR?
Granted, we're only talking about two additional seats but with the already reduced seating of the M-7 should the RR ask the customers to surrender those seats for the 'comfort' of the engineer?
I guess it makes a difference if the side with the two seater has anything important in the locked panels. I saw it open one time, and I know for a fact it had a LIRR Radio in it, but I don't know what else, I think something else with the speed control. Does the engineer need anything on that left hand side to properly operate the train.
Maybe once all the problems are settled with the M7, the LIRR should go around to asking for a waiver, but I seriously doubt they will.
There's also a reason to have transverse cabs on the subway.
Sure it could be said but it would not be true. There is some logic to transverse cabs on the subways. On the subways transverse cabs allow for OPTO.
Door enablers. The T/O presses a button by the motor controls to enable the left/right side doors to open. If the C/R (or T/O if running OPTO) tries to open the doors on the opposite side of those enabled, the doors on the side he tries to open won't open.
There are 570 R-62A's in 5-car sets, each with two collapsable transverse cabs. None of them are used in OPTO service. That's 228 unnecessary transverse cabs.
There are 31 R-62A singles with transverse cabs. Six are arguably necessary for the quasi-OPTO service that runs on the 42nd Street shuttle. That leaves 25 unnecessary transverse cabs, including all on Corona stock.
There are 315 R-62's, all in 5-car sets, each with two collapsable transverse cabs. None of them are used in OPTO service. That's 126 unnecessary transverse cabs.
There are 1550 R-142's and R-142A's, all in 5-car sets, each with two transverse cabs. Two sets are used for the late night 5. That leaves 616 unnecessary transverse cabs.
So in the A Division, 99% of the transverse cabs (995 out of 1005) are unnecessary by your own criterion.
Let's move on to the B Division.
There are 272 R-44's, all in 4-car sets, each with two transverse cabs. Three sets are used on the late night Lefferts shuttle and three sets are used on the Rock Park shuttle. That leaves 124 unnecessary transverse cabs out of 136.
There are 724 R-46's in 4-car sets, each with two transverse cabs, and 28 R-46's in 2-car sets, each with two transverse cabs. Eighteen (four-car) sets are used on the weekend G, four are used on the late night R, and one is used on the Grand Street shuttle (or was, until the recent round of GO's kicked in). That leaves 344 unnecessary transverse cabs out of 390.
There are 9 R-68 singles, each with one cab, permanently assigned to the Franklin shuttle. All of them must be transverse cabs.
There are 616 R-68's and R-68A's in 4-car sets. Each car has one transverse cab. Five sets are used on the late night N (for the next week and a half). That leaves 596 unnecessary transverse cabs out of 616.
There are 212 R-143's, all in 4-car sets, each with two transverse cabs. Four sets are used on the weekend M. That leaves 98 unnecessary transverse cabs out of 106.
So in the B Division, 92% of the transverse cabs (1162 out of 1257) are unnecessary by your own criterion.
Okay, you've accounted for about 5% of the transverse cabs on the subway. Why doesn't your question about transverse cabs on the M-7 apply to the other 95% of the transverse cabs on the subway?
In all seriousness, I wouldn't be surprised if it's recommended operating procedure given that FRA has done a number of rules to keep passengers away from the front of the lead car on other MU's out there.
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_02/49cfrv4_02.html
Looks like there is still a little bit of original tile left at one end of the platform. Does anyone know why most of it was ripped out?
wayne
Looks like there is still a little bit of original tile left at one end of the platform. Does anyone know why most of it was ripped out?
I like the no smoking and no spitting sign. They've outlawed smoking tobacco AND chewing tobacco!
Have test trains started practice runs on these tracks?
It's great to take a bus and realize you're playing LESS for your trip than gas!! I get a sense of pride from it.
: ) Elias
No one is "left alone" when it comes to rising fuel costs. Motorized transportation costs increase faster than rail so expect your buses to raise fares soon. The Saudis have already said they are cutting back production this summer so those states like California with poor public transport will suffer the most as gas prices are expected to rise.
Those of us in the New York City Metro who are car free thanks to the excellant subway and bus systems don't have to worry for now. The last time I purchased gasoline was 3 years ago and don't intend on purchasing any more. Those with huge cars (SUV's) with massive gas tanks have my condolences.
If gas prices rise to $3.00 dollars a gallon, I will sleep like a baby.
Was it last year or the year before where prices shot through the roof(like they aren't now). I remember everyone was so overbudget, they even asked police not to idle, and gave them a ban on A/C. That must've been fun.
Maybe we can get some fuel from those wacky Iraqis.
avid
Gotta keep them hummers humming. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. (grin)
Mark
AFAIK current 1.00 Euro == 1.25 US $ (not exact - some cent more for 1 Euro)
This means 1.36 $ for one liter and 5.15 $ for one gallon!
Salaam, you have to get the state and city to reverse the ban on new subways in LA. Extend the Red Line all the way to Santa Monica!
You want subways, fight to get that law repealed. Also, while you get new rail transit, fight for hydrogen-powered cars. We have the technology, but the oil bastards don't want to use it.
–Still better engines with increased efficiency, preferably burning non-polluting fuels such as hydrogen. We’re still going to need to transport goods and use vehicles to for agriculture
–Stop building sprawling suburbs where an automobile is essential. Plan for communities where it’s at least as easy to function using public transit/walking as with an automobile.
–Pay real attention to alternative forms of energy. I hope that the real resources of the Middle East will turn out to be the large open areas which are relatively sunny so that solar power can be exploited in a variety of ways that we haven’t yet begun to think about.
–Start thinking about global population policies that make sense. If there’s only so much to go around, fewer people can have more each.
I could go on. Somewhere in the last couple of years I have become significantly less optimistic about the human race’s ability to survive the next century. We are about to reach the end of some natural resources that we had assumed would be limitless (see here for one article) and we’re doing nothing about it, in fact the US is encouraging energy profligacy with tax breaks!
In the short term, I welcome $2/gallon, even $5/gallon. Then people will really start to think about alternatives while we still have time.
You posted a lot of good ideas so you're very well informed. This solution made me laugh. Folks. Here what I think will happen.
1. When these nations in the Middle East run out of gas, they will have lots of weapons, money and time on their hands to declare war upon each other. I expect these countries to end up fighting each other for land rights and access to water.
2. When the last gallon of gas is sucked from the Earth, we will not NOT turn to Solar or wind power as suggested. If anyting we will go back to Nuclear power and burning large amounts of coal to generate electricity and hydrogen power to fuel our SUVs. Period.
Of course it won't be a huge %age of my energy anyway.
Here in California there are three such places. Along I-10 near Palm Springs, along I-580 between Livermore/Tracy, and on SR58 in/around Tehachapi.
Most other places just don't have enough constant wind to make the things work.
Now you're also going to want to buy a fuel system cleaner every 3,000 miles to give it better mpg. Save about 7 dollars for this.
Air cleaner, dont' let that thing get dirty. 5 Bucks for a cheap one, to around 10 I think.
Turn up stuff, ignition cables spark plugs, etc. Have no clue, haven't had the money for this stuff.
Fuel line filter. Cheaper to buy one you're self, installation, no clue see above.
Oil change. Costs me about 6 bucks a pop, and I do it myself!
What did I miss? Well if you follow these simple and non-costly measures, you're 2 bucks a gallon will go further.
And they wonder why Tampa Bay is #1 in the nation for transportion costs.
Gasoline/Diesel going up in So .California.$2.oo+a gallon( on topic )
wonder if our pacific electric system was 100% left completely
alone !
just think all of those already built right of ways added on to the
rtd / lacmta 70 miles we have now .........
you would not need to pay over $2.oo+a gallon for petrol !!
what a BIG RIPOFF !!
they stole us blind !!
i want revenge now !! damnit !!
............no.........lol
So it that like a special ROW for the buses? I guess it could also be a reserved lane on an expressway.
Busways are stupid. Pittsgurgh has one. Cost something like 2 billion dollars and all it did was perimently make the old PRR main line 2 tracks in that area.
Transitways and circulars/loops are pretty good though, when done right anyway.
But the Ardmore example is not a modern BRT scheme.
That's exactly what it is. Bus Rapid Transit works just slightly better than regular bus service. It would have been much better if they spent a little more and developed a light rail system with Park & ride to supplement the service. How many times have we seen LightRail exceed ridership numbers while bus service does not!
Mark
There you go. This is why Bus Rapid Transit is a failure. A lightRail with an ROW would have been much better.
It does keep them off the local streets but isn't the main reason to give the buses a quicker journey undelayed by selfish motorists ?
It had the beneficial effects of keeping the buses off unsuitable streets and providing a faster ride. I'm not sure I would characterize motorists as "selfish" just for using the same street a bus in on.
As an interesting aside, around 1968 PST tried running an experimental rail bus, a GM fishbowl equipped with flanged guide wheels to keep the rubber tires positioned on the rails. The bus tested on the two remaining trolley lines, plus the Norristown line (SEPTA Route 100), but was done in by winter weather when it just couldn't get a grip - literally! Too much wheel spin. The rail lines held on and were sold with PST's bus operations to SEPTA in 1970.
Chuck Greene
Wellington, New Zealand, has a bus-only tunnel connecting the city centre and the eastern suburbs (where the airport is) underneath Mount Victoria. It was originally a single-track tram (streetcar)tunnel. When the trams were replaced bt trolley buses the track was paved over but public transit use continued. It is still only a single lane, protected by traffic lights to permit use in only one direction at a time. It is also unlit, which make passing through it in a bus a slightly eerie experience.
It is now used by diesel buses as well as trolley buses, and these include school buses and also the airport service. At rush hours it is quite heavily used. There is pressure from the airport taxi drivers to let them use it too, as an alternative to the two-lane tunnel that the main road to the airport takes. The bus company has strongly resisted this, since having lots of taxis using the single-lane tunnel would clearly lead to serious congestion and delay for bus routes in the rush hours.
Mark
Like Paul said, it was the former right of way for the ardmore trolley.
Chuck Greene
Matthew Mummert
Nah. Just a serendipitous encounter. As it turns out, I inadvertently remained on-topic. Considering the history of the busway and all...
Last night, the planets were aligned just right. The NJ Transit No. 62 bus was pulling in as I got out of the terminal, and I ran to catch it. I was in a PATH train pulling out of Newark Penn Station 22 minutes later. Arrived at PATH's WTC station after about 50 minutes travel time total. That ain't bad.
It certainly is not always that fast, and you don't want to bring any serious luggage on the No. 62 bus ( its crowded ) but this is a pretty good alternative for a total price of $3.60. ( $1.50 PATH, $1.10 for the No. 62 bus )
-----------
It seems to me that Newark Airtrain is an unmitigated flop. The intelligent thing to do would have been to extend the PATH the short distance to the Newark Airport station--or extend the monorail to Newark Penn. Not sure that this would have cost any great fortune either.
Now, the monorail ( which runs very frequently ) connects with NJ Transit trains that have substantial gaps between scheduled runs in the evening...gaps that can easily run up to 40 minutes when one of the trains is late. After a few of these experiences, I've stopped taking Airtrain Newark. I think word of mouth is killing this lousy service.
In the many times I tried Airtrain, I never noticed it to be particulary crowded. Most of the people I saw on it were going from terminal to terminal or to the P4 Parking garage.
I would like to say Airtrain is better than nothing, but in a way its not even as good as what was there before. The old " Airlink " bus at least took you to Newark Penn Station ( where there were frequent PATH trains to the city ); the Airtrain takes you to Newark Airport station, where you can wait a long, long time for the next NJ Transit train.
-------
So-o...are there any statistics that might show how Airtrain has impacted mass transit ridership to EWR? I'll bet that net mass transit ridership is down and that Airtrain has actually set back the cause of mass transit to this airport.
Going to the airport though, is easy, since you don’t have to wait!
I encourage you guys to call or write to Michael DePallo's office (Director of PATH, One PATH Plaza, Jersey City) to support it. PATH conducted a feasibility study but I do not know its results.
Going to the airport has been universally great. With good connections at Penn, I've made it from my LIRR station in Nassau County to my gate at EWR in as little as 70 minutes.
Returning is a real problem, as NJT just doesn't have the critical mass of trains to make evening travel reasonable -- and since I often get back into town between 9 and 11 PM that's trouble. When I've returned to the airport during daytime hours it hasn't been much of a problem.
I wonder what the additional cost to NJT would be to run a shuttle train between NY Penn and EWR stopping at Newark Penn and Secaucus in such a way that 15 minute headways were maintained until about 1 AM.
AirTrain Jamaica should be smoother in that LIRR has about 5 trains per hour from Jamaica to Penn up until about 1 AM.
CG
Now, if you throw Amtrak in, the gap between trains gets smaller - but Amtrak is more expensive and doesn't offer any advantage in the NY direction. Amtrak does offer an additional option to folks returning to Philadelphia, in that you can compare available air fares at PHL and EWR and if EWR gets you a cheaper enough air fare, then flying to EWR and then taking AirTrain to Amtrak to 30th Street Station might be ovverall a better deal than flying to PHL. Bu that's if the fares and schedules work out that way.
Which probably will happen less and less now that Southwest will be flying to PHL.
CG
Of course, even if Amtrak ticket machines were there, it would be half-a-loaf. When you arrive at EWR station, you're looking to hop the next train to Penn Station, regardless of who operates it. It would be very annoying to buy an Amtrak ticket, and then a NJT train pulls in—or vice versa.
I've had that happen as well. Actually, I was holding an Amtrak ticket but when I got to the station, the next train was NJT. At least I was able to buy an NJT ticket and save the Amtrak ticket (now that I think of it, I don't know what ever happened to it...)
CG
NYP-EWR = $11.55
NYP-Elizabeth = $4.55
Airport NJT station¨CEWR = 5.00 [monorail fare]
Therefore, if you buy a NYP-Elizabeth ticket at Penn Station for $4.55, get off at the airport station and buy a monorail ticket, your total NYP-EWR fare is $9.55, two dollars cheaper than the published fare. Of course, the cheapest and best way to EWR is the NJT #62 bus from Newark Penn Station, as others have pointed out.
As several people have noted, during "off hours" (evenings and weekends) the schedule is a little sparse, and you have to allow an ample contingency margin in your planning. Because of this, AirTrain to/from NYC isn't faster than a taxi under almost any circumstances. It is, of course, a lot cheaper than a taxi.
Several people have asked why they didn't just extend the PATH to Newark Airport, instead of connecting the airport monorail to NJT/Amtrak. The reason was that they wanted a mass transit option that would benefit the NJT's entire service area. A connection to PATH only gets you to 13 stations.
According to the LMDC's transportation blueprint, the connection to PATH is still very much alive.
Even in the middle of the day on weekdays it isn't wonderful, compared with rail transit options at many airports around the world. When I first visited EWR, the poor frequency of the NJT train service to the Airport station struck me as a major drawback of the system - the high fare being, of course, the other.
So when I went to the airport to fly back to the UK, I used the PATH plus bus option via Newark Penn, which gave me the added advantage of being able to railfan the Newark City Subway on the way!
If you're gonna willingly jump onto the track bed, ya DON'T do it when there's a train coming.
I suspect many people don't realize, until it's too late, just how much of a climb it is from the tracks to the platform.
The wheel sets on a subway car are 36"s, are they not? There is easily another two feet of clearance between the top of the wheel and the platform floor.
It is also not possible to stand on the railhead to boost yourself onto the platform. The rail guage is 4'8.5" and B-Div cars are 10' wide. This means that the platform is 2' 10" away from the rail head. If the track web is 6", you'd loose more than you would gain by standing on it.
Despite what you may think when you are riding on them, subway trains are fast, you will look down the track and see nothing, but when one of those suckers comes into sight, there will be only a few seconds before it is upon you.
Elias
Am I the only one who's been bored or just started wondering what to do if I ever landed on the tracks?
There is also a difference in wondering what to do. And knowing what to do. And in this case the hesitation cost her.
But if you're the "fallen and I can't get uppp" type... hmmm.
It *is* possible, but I'd not recommend it as a first choice. Yes, the third rail is (usually) on the other side, but the pick-up shoes are live on both sides of the car. There is also other equipment that hangs on the side of the cars that come right to the edge of the crs, and therefore also to the edge of the platform.
Stepping between the pillars is my first choice. the man slots on the side wall are also a good choice, but what they are 80-100 years old, and are not designed for the girth of today's individual. Like I said, I'd lie down in the trough and let the train pass over. Wiggling under a platform takes time.
Elias
To get under a platform, all you have to do is press yourself up against the wall under the platform. OTOH, laying in the trough would likely require more time, since you need to be in just the right spot. You also can't do that on gravel trackbeds or elevated structures.
There is also other equipment that hangs on the side of the cars that come right to the edge of the crs, and therefore also to the edge of the platform.
None of such equipment would hang into the space under the platform.
Couldn't happen to railfans. We all wait at the end of the platform waiting for the railfan window.And before someone nitpicks about trains wrong railing, trains passing stations, full lenghth cabs, or how they don't wait for the front car, my post was made in jest.
As I explained to my daughters, that young woman did three things I don't want them to do ever.
1) Do not get close enough to the platform edge to trip and fall, get pushed, or drop something to the tracks.
2) If you nonetheless do drop something to the tracks, let it go. If it is too valuable to lose, go to the booth, tell them what happened, and wait for someone PROTECTED BY A FLAGGER to come along and get it for you.
3) If you nonetheless end up on the tracks, lie down in the trench and stay there. Tell someone to go tell the booth. If a train comes over you do not touch it. Wait for someone to get you out.
The only exception to the above is if you are near the end of the platform, are SURE not train is coming, and can get to the edge and climb the ladder.
The bottom of tyhe pit isnt that far from the top of the platform. I would suspect that the fact that she couldntr climb up was probably due to poor health.
ashame to be a train
N bwy
This is correct. I dropped some photographs down to the LIRR roadbed in Merrick. I jumped down to the tracks to recover them, and then saw how high those platforms really are. Ain't no way I could have climbed back up again. Fortunately, I always ride at the west end of the train, and so it was only a very short walk to the end of the platform and to the stairway leading back up to the platform.
The victim here was a large woman, (no not that large) but it is quite clear that one person would not have been suficcient to raise her up. She would have done better to lie in the trough and let the train pass over her. But that is hard to do when 1) you are not thinking, and 2) somebody will not let go of your arm.
Besides, what the heck was she trying to do with a phone inside of a subway hole?
Elias
Crummy reason to die for.
Bond: Do you expect me to talk?
Blofeld: No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!
P.S.: I've noticed that in Chicago, many of the CTA tracks have the third rail on the platform side, and there is no board covering it. This must be even worse than NYC in the danger it presents to someone who falls/enters/is pushed onto the tracks.
I've actually only noticed this at two stations: O'Hare on the Blue Line and 54th/Cermak on the Blue Line (which no longer exists in its original form). In both these cases, it's a situation where there's one track with platforms on either side, so the third rail has no choice but to be located under a platform edge.
Other places where I've noticed the third rail located directly under a platoform edge: Park Street on the MBTA Red Line (also because of a single track with platoforms on either side), and 30th Street on SEPTA's Market-Frankfort Line. (With the MFL, the third rail is under-running and is actually further under the lip of the platform, due to the extra-wide guage of the tracks, so the chances of falling on it and getting zapped are much lower.)
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
In fact, I'll send you a MTA $7 Daily Fun Pass if you can prove me wrong. :-)
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
No, we try to retrieve those things out of the crapper on Metro North, and then have to have the fire department cut the train car apart to get our arms out of the thing.
LOL....
Stupidity knows no boundries!
But yes, peoples less familiar with these machines are likely to overlook such problems.
Elias
No but a person like you could be born at Bellevue or Creedmore and still be an American and a life-long New Yorker too.
No but a person like you could be born at Bellevue or Creedmore and still be an American and a life-long New Yorker too.
Your an American YET you do stupid things like posting dumbass & bigoted comments like this. You wonder why your not well liked and get jumped on a lot, you explain it in your posts.
In any case, the MTA advocates against doing this under ANY circumstance and informing TA employees is what always should be fone if you want your possessions recovered.
On a sidenote, but on topic, if one has ever taken a S/B train at Grand Avenue, one knows about a long right just prior to the station, and usually trains aren't seen until less than 100 feet before the station.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Mark
Bingo. Many cell phone companies offer insurance policies against lost or damaged equiptment. My cell phone was toast last month and Verizon gave me a brand new one! (without the battery of course)
This story was unbelievable.
Somewhat less than what the undertaker will charge.
So you weigh the cost of the phone against the cost of replacing it. It is likely enough that the cost of the insurance on that basis alone is not worth it.
Now if the insurance will cover the costs of a cloned or stolen phone and the charges that could be incured on your account, yes, that is a different story.
Elias
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
1. She thought that her cell phone would be squashed by the next train and therefore decided not to ask for help.
2. She underestimated how far it was up to the platform from the tracks.
3. She underestimated how fast the trains entered the station.
4. She froze for a moment when she first saw the train, at a time when even the slighest delay would be too long.
5. She just hung there as dead weight when the two men tried to pull her up to the platform.
Again, I don't know precisely how it all happened, but I think this explanation isn't too far from the truth. The point is that Ms. Villegas committed some errors of judgment, not deliberately risky acts like true Darwin Award winners.
400 years ???
What America do you know about?
Elias
*There's no such thing as reverse-discrimination, either way, it's discrimination.
Who ever said that they had that much of a brain to begin with? : )
Are you the one who wrote to MTA last week to complain about too many women powdering their noses while blocking subway car doors?
:0)
ROFLMAO
The maintenace crew in our town is a husband-wife team in their 60s. Mostly the get to work on the water works, sewers and lift stations, but they also repair the streets.
To watch this little old lady comming down the street in her snow plow is truly awesome! If you leave your car on the street during a snow storm, you can expect that she will very neatly burry it until April!
: ) Elias
"colored" I can see you not an intelligent individual, otherwise, "colored" would not have been in your vocabulary. And as for my wife, she is too intelligent to be jumping in a subway track for something less viable then her life.
All,
I just wonder how many people would be sympathetic if that was an African American who was killed on the subway tracks? Let me answer that for you, NONE! NADA.. Instead, I will hear how stupid they were and that they deserve it.
You accuse others of prejudice when you yourself practice it.
But I know that Pigs won't join you in the nearest sewer, because that's where YOU belong.
Oh! I forgot one other thing too...my girl's family hails from Trinidad. Take that to the bank, you STUPID weasel.
Great! But you are not married.. Hehehee.. so you are inexperience.. hehehe..
Since you want to talk about race, and Dumb women; let's look at something:
As far as African-Americans go, women are far ahead of their black male counterparts in white-collar professions. They also statistically complete more schooling, and climb the corporate ladder quicker.
Thus, if women are slower then men, as you claim, and black men slower then black women, As is statistical fact, then it's not all that far-fetched to assume that black men really are dumber then white men, no?
I don't actually believe this, as I am black, But I'd like to show you what your logic proves.
I can't speak for black men because I'm not one and I never dated one. But as for black women, I feel they are not seen as threatening as African Americans males. When you live in someone's skin, you will have a better understanding of that.
Currently, I'm raising two son's and one daughter. All of them are black. Therefore, I make sure their black uncle (my wife's brother) is just as much a part of their lives as I am.
Dating one wouldn't qualify you.
But as for black women, I feel they are not seen as threatening as African Americans males.
I actually agree with this.
When you live in someone's skin, you will have a better understanding of that.
What language do you speak?
Currently, I'm raising two son's and one daughter. All of them are black. Therefore, I make sure their black uncle (my wife's brother) is just as much a part of their lives as I am.
This is really dumb. Why wouldn't their uncle be in their lives? You're saying that you go out of your way to make sure that their BLACK uncle is in their lives because they need a BLACK man to teach them how BLACK people should live. This is crap. You need to look at your kids as humans, not 'black people'.
I agree that racism against black people still exists. But you are going waaaaay overboard. You aren't black, so you don't know a anything about being black.
Yes, that is a perception people often have (sadly), because of a lack of social skills, limited experience dealing with people, attitudes at home and so on.
You can see a reverse effect too: I have noticed that, sometimes, African Americans reject my attempts to get to know them as friends (in other than working relationships)or get too close. This effect is more pronounced (in my personal experience; I do not speak for others) at lower socioeconomic levels, and much less so in higher levels or in the professional ranks.
This does not mean they are not respectful and kind and courteous in public dealings - just that things break down a little when I suggest we meet on the weekend for lunch.
"Currently, I'm raising two son's and one daughter. All of them are black. Therefore, I make sure their black uncle (my wife's brother) is just as much a part of their lives as I am. "
Very nice. As they grow up they will be comfortable in more social circles and will have, I hope, better social skills as a result.
Once again, you have shown the board that you are an ignorant idiot :-\.
In other words just sit there and keep your stupid mouth shut.
And getting down to the tracks is easier than getting up.
Isn't there a stairway at the end of subway platforms? I suppose she could have run down to the end and tried to use the stairs instead of even trying to climb up on the platform itself. It would have bought the T/O time too (more lead time to go BIE).
I don't believe there's sufficient clearance under platforms.
He survived.... and even IIRC, the train was already IN the station
(at the 10 car) marker when he was pushed over... so even HE had less time.
NOPE. She was at the east end of the platform, aint no way she can out run a train at 20 mph for 500 feet, while dodging cross ties and other track equipment.
Elias
Mark
wayne
It also would have to be incapable of conducting electricity under any circumstances.
so let the train come in, leave, and then use your woodshop shaft to retrieve whatever remains of the
Sprint...
as long as the gal stays ON THE PLATFORM, the shaft is a good gig!
Five Feet? Yes that would work if you were lying on your belly, AND the object that you wanted to reach was right by the platform.
It would have to be at least ten feet long for it...
Oh never mind, I will not touch that one with a ten foot pole!
Elias : )
Mark
Tragic indeed.
Not only do they struggle to GET here... but we must struggle to MAKE IT here...
and anything bought with our hard-working money is like gold from 76th Street.
I commend their caring attitudes and their efforts.
Link here
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/163452p-143262c.html
The two men that tried to save her could have easily been killed. I'm pretty sure they let go before the train hit her.
How about if they yelled Drop the damn phone and run. To the end of the platform, to a crawlspace or whatever. You can't be bright. Even the subway rats figured that out.
but we keyboard critics were NOT in her shoes and we (probably) do NOT
know the view of things from a trackbed level.... so only until we (ourselves)
are in her predicament, can we really see if the "run to the other end"
idea bears a thought on our mind.
.....just dont mistake the three-layered plank of thin wood for a "Step"
Actually it is there to drain water, and so it is a filthy wet place that is not inviting to the eye.
Of course if it a choice between life and death... Choose Life!
: ) Elias
Wrong on both accounts. First it's called a 'trough'. Second it's so named because it's designed to catch and direct water into drains. BTW: Most of them are not deep enough to offer more than a slight chance of survival.
These cell phones are killing people everywhere. How many people are being killed by road users each day with these devices?
I refuse to carry my phone with me. Maybe I'm just old school but I remember a day when no one walked with cell phones. It's not impossible folks and it makes my life so much simpler.
wayne
BTW, what's the draw with the H2?
The Hummer is the "jeep of the 21st Century" with none of the abilities of the Jeep.
There are two quotes that apply:
"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public" - H.L. Mencken
"There's a sucker born every minute - and two to take him" - P.T. Barnum
Normally I'd agree. However there are signs posted everywhere "DO NOT ENTER OR CROSS TRACKS" some still there since the system opened. If there is a lawsuit, I'd be very interested to know what the grounds for the suit are.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Consider the case of the Chinese exchange student in Chicago a few years ago who had to take a leak. He entered the "L" station looking for a place to relieve himself. Not finding an open toilet, he went on and to the end of the platform to go. Despite the unevenness of the floor at the end of the platform, he attempted to relieve himself and was zapped when his stream hit the 3rd rail. Despite everything about the platform )The uneven platform and the signs stating "No Trespassing"), the courts found the CTA at fault because as a foreign National, the Chinese student could not read the english sign. And he would not have understood why the end of the platform was uneven.
Now I expect someone to answer me and say "this is NOT what happened." and give me a corrected version of what did happen. I won't argue with them about it. The point I'm trying to make is the lawyer will say something not quite the truth about the incident. If the TA lawyers don't catch it and get it thrown out of the trial, The jury will have to decide about it. Then there will be a chance they will find TA responsible for it and TA will have to pay for it. After the trial there will be arguing in here and other places how it didn't happen and the TA lawyers should have seen this. But it wasn't noticed during the trial and it caused the TA to lose.
The following things are NOT eligible.
Not a Darwin (but not safe either)
* Whizzing on an electric wire
* Smoking in an oxygen tent
* Being hit by a train or automobile
* Aerosol cans, etc., in the oven
* Climbing into zoo cages
* Falling off precipice while posing or pissing
* Carbon monoxide poisoning
* Most autoerotic deaths
* all too common!
Her mother kept saying how "smart" she was. How much brain power does it take to know you don't jump on the track to retrieve something as trivial as a cell phone? Especially if a train arrival is imminent. While I sympathize with her family for their loss, it is the T/O that I really feel for. How many times will he relive this experience in his memory over the years?
Standard comment you hear from any mother after such a tragedy.
Good one. One can be academic smart but street dum!
--Mark
By Bryan Bonnici
wayne
Bryan, you'd do yourself a great service if you posted about things you have some knowledge of. First, we are talking about a subway (like in tunnels) and not a class I railroad. You see nothing a mile away in a subway. In this specific case, the train was traveling about 25 miles per hour around a curve before entering the station. I'm told that if the train operator saw the young lady at the earliest possible moment, he was only 5 seconds from her. If he dumped the train instantaneously - no reaction time - the train would have had to decellerate at 5 MPH/Sec in order to not hit her. NYCT trains have a max brake rate of 3.25 MPH in full service and 3 MPH in emergency. The outcome was assured.
So full service is stops trains faster then emergency braking?
Yes it does. Read the NSTB report about the Williamsburg Bridge crash.
BIE is only the air brakes.
Full Service has both better control of the air brakes, AND access to the Dynamic Brakes.
Elias
That's a bit...i don't know...
Can someone explain this?
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
And just what would you, a martian know about our subways?
1) A curve coming into the station. Zero visibility for both victim and operator.
2) Even a train BIE would have taken her out.
3) You cannot out run a train doing 20 mph especially on a roadbed, and especially with the end of the platform at least 500 feet away.
4) A yell for help would have used up all of her time.
5) The man "helping" her took away her other options, such as rolling under the platform or diving into the track trough.
Passengers and Roadbeds do not mix very well.
Elias
save a life or two? why are she on the subway tracks, thats a question! Oh yeah how much slower would you like to take the train. lets have all trains operate at no more than 10 mph all times. then watch how the other folks complain how the service is slow and late. then we can have intervals the size of the grand canyon to prevent situations like this. if there is a clear demand for service then you must go and provide it -look at the L line 8 years ago verses now as an example. but you know what you are right -this is nyc and we do have tight schedules AND demanding customers who expect their service to run and get them to their destinations on time. this was an unfortunate situation for the lady her family, as well as the T/O who now has this image in thier head and has the burden that they were involved in an accident that took a life whether they did the right thing or not. to knowledge they t/o had the train under control, was attentive enought to throw the train in emergency,did thier best to avoid a situation at all costs. in a situation like this all you can do is pray. please understand its not the job of a t/o to save the life of anyone since in reality she should not have been thier in the first place. its like with the kid surfing not too long ago on the 1600 C/ euclid that lost his life. People need to use more basic sense sometimes.
With money and time, we could dramatically reduce the 40,000 lives lost each year in car accidents. But we as a nation have decided not to do anything really drastic, such as lowering the speed limit to 50 mph with a 5 year suspended license for any violation.
By comparison, NYCT is an incredible model of safe operation. It's a lot harder to save lives by making NYCT safer than by making the roads safer, because there are so few lives accidentally lost in NYCT to begin with.
Lowering the speed limit solves nothing. Germany has a speed limit of c on a number of roads, but they have fewer accidents and fatalities on the road than we do.
When posting on a US rail board, please convert Metric speeds to "English" measure.
Condolences to her family and friends!
Most of the posts I have read, they're syaing how stupid she was and only care about the train/rails, etc. I feel bad for BOTH the family of the 18 year old girl and the T/O and his family. Most of these posts were out of ignorance and shows how some railfans don't care about anything but trains. Sad :-\. Some of you guys make me sick.
Myu condolences go to both families, but I am leaning more to the train operator, as I have said countless times on this board, that the victim on any 12-9 is the train operator too.
Let's drift away from this nonsense and discuss the Grand Ave incident more, shall we?
Let's drift away from this nonsense and discuss the Grand Ave incident more, shall we?
I agree, I'll get into other discussions now.
...but dude, this IS a train-interest message board. Sad that a person died, obviously. How many other human beings lives came to an unfortunate end that same day? Death is the only thing we can be sure is going to happen to everyone of us in life.
So I don't think it behooves you to chastise those posters here who concentrate on trains. There are more outlets for expressing other thoughts on the internet than you can shake a stick at. This just doesn't happen to be one of those. It doesn't reflect badly at all on the expressed interests of posters here.
OFF TOPIC discussion board for RAILFANS
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However, we shouldn't forget that slamming on the brakes does buy a little time. Sometimes a couple of seconds, sometimes more. Every once in a while that could be enough time for a person to get to safety, or at least avoid death.
I am reminded of the 747s that crashed at Tenerife, in the Canary Islands. The pilot of a taxiing 747 full of passengers saw the KLM 747 roaring down the runway, appearing out of the gloom in front of him. (There was no separate taxiway to use)
Desperate, he turned the 747's tiller to steer it off the runway and shoved the throttles to maximum takeoff power. He managed to save the lives of some passengers in the very forward section of the airplane. They survived the worst civil aviation disaster in history because the pilot bought a precious few seconds of time.
So in other words your saying its dumb ONLY because of the cost of the phone? What a stupid comment.
Not that it really means anything but read the article again. He said he will work for 6 months and then retire. The article says he will be taking a few days off.
Bill "Newkirk"
A good car can stop on a dime. The best train can't.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
So, if it was a Digital Camera and not a cellphone, would a bunch of us on here make a diving leap to retrieve it?
I did this when a friend knocked my camera (Olympus C4000) off a table, when it had its lens out and the lens wouldn’t move. CompUsa fixed it for me for free in three weeks!
However, I didn’t have to jump onto subway tracks to retrieve it…
In one particularly memorable case, some guy thought he was entitled to a new camcorder because he mistakenly backed over his recently-purchased camcorder with his minivan. (The side door was open, and the camcorder fell out as he was backing up.) I contacted the store manager, who politely but firmly explained to him where the door was.
All in all, it depends on the store and who you happen to be dealing with.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Depends on what style of NYCT roadbed it falls on to...
OFF TOPIC discussion board for RAILFANS
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Nah... it's an eight foot drop or more (from your hands).
Might survive if it lands on a pillow, but I have had them die on a two foot drop to a carpeted floor.
Still, if it was coverd by your homeowner's insurance, you would probably want to recover it as evidence, though it might not be necessary, it could just as easily have fallen from the Staten Island Ferry.
Elias
Crap. I can't believe I haven't dropped this thing like I drop my cell-phone. I can't believe that thing still works after all the time it's crashed onto concrete and sand.
Hurry up and give me you're suggestions for what to take pics of before I don't have this anymore.
It depends on the camera, of course. The old SONYs with the 3.5" Floppy Drive are most fragle. Actually, the Camera works perfectly, it is the drive that is dead. I have a new SONY with a CD drive in it, and you can be sure that I handle it more carefully. But CD drives are more robust.
The problem with some other cameras is mechanical, such as the breaking of the tiny plastic bosses that hold the battery case closed, or mechinical dodads that run the zoom or lense cap or such.
It is probably pretty tough to "break" the electronics or chips, but dropping one in a puddle will be fairly fatal to the camera. Extrem cold may produce condensation inside the camera that might not do it too well either.
Elias
A) Ask the T/O of the next train to back up and block the tracks for you.
B) Mess with the wiring and try to get the signal ahead of the station to be Red. :)
1971 at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum.
Approaching the platform on Track 2 with car 1164 (Brill 1902), I stopped for the first switch per the rules, got two bells from the conductor. Took power and held 1 point through the second switch in the yard.
A small child (about 3 or 4) broke away from the adult and ran right onto the track in front of me.
I immediatly applied full reverse power and full braking effort (car is a hand-braked 12 bench open car. The car shuddered to a stop one foot from the car. I was half expecting to there the BANG of a blown motor, but she held.
I don't ever want to have that happen again.
1990: When I was walking downstairs to catch the Broad Street Line local at Race-Vine Station southbound, some guy pushed me aside and leaped down to the platform because the train was already pulling away. He jumped between two cars, and then lost his footing, hanging on with legs dangling near the third rail as the train negotiated the curve in the direction of City Hall.
I ran to the yellow emergency intercom and called for help.
The guy must have gotten into the subway car OK because I got on the next train and service continued uninterrupted.
There's rather a bit of difference between September 11 and the present incident.
Yeah, they were removing the lower portion to make room for a new bigger and wider concource. But what I didnt get when there was they were making a bigger lower level, but were fixing the upper level aswell(The entrence level downstairs has 2 stairs leading to the old track, but I didnt notice a 2nd entrence except for 1 and it seemed bricked off).
I just wish MTA would leave the history the way it was, I dont want to be a raciest(never was one) but its the people who live there that f'ed the station and its surounding neighborhood.
Anyways, last I was there, behind the blue wooden temp. wall, I noticed they already had installed the bottom bricks to start the outta wall.
I think the project is supposed to be done in '07.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/SIRT/sirt.html
I don't believe there are enough commuters to make the North Shore Line viable. Heavy rail would be way too expensive while a light-rail would make more sense and probably fill all the needs of the community providing the city sets up a Park N Ride for the
motorists.
Staten Island is a car town and don't use their transit system like the commuters in Brooklyn or Queens which is why they lost much of their rail.
Mark
I wonder how NY Waterway would feel about NJ commuters heading to SI to use the ferry for free? I wonder how Staten Island would feel having all those NJ commuters using their services for free?
Nothing is free in our beloved Tri-State area(one exception, the SI Ferry). Sould SIR reactivate the North Shore line, the fair still has to be paid at St George. The closest station on the old line to St George is New Brighton, which is not as close to the terminal as Tompkinsville. I rode SIR yesterday, and half the people on the train got off in Tompkinsville to avoid the fare in St George. I found them out of breath at the ferry terminal minutes later. IMHO, it's not worth running up the hill from Tompkinsville to save a paltry $2. Plus, I take advantage of the two free transfers from bus to SIR to subway or bus at Souuth Ferry. Best $2 I ever spent.
Regards,
Jimmy
Bingo. I see that all the time. I never thought of transferring on the bus once in Manhattan. Good idea.
Regards,
Jimmy
Mark
NO!
Why does this misconception never die? Just because a rail line is interstate, doesn't mean it has anything to do with the FRA. WMATA Metrorail, PATCO, and the St. Louis Metrolink are all interstate rail systems, yet they have nothing to do with the FRA.
And the ICC doesn't exist anymore.
Mark
http://www.thebluecomet.com/nylb.html
I need to find a really good scenic picture of an Amtrak (northeast region) and a scenic Connecticut Metro North train...
Any suggestions?
Also, mistakes on the NB platform sign on the exp. track at 59th...it says "makes local stops after Canal on weekdays"...should be weekends...it's amazing how the verbiage is slowly changing throughout the system...most if it is wrong too...they're covering all traces of the N train in all downtown Manhattan stops...
Thanks,
Jonathan
:)
Seriously. Take your grandstanding to the Strappies, we won't miss it.
When I was in medical residency training I saw how we as a group treated our Chief Residents (they made the rotation schedules, vacation schedules, on-call assignments, participated in promotion and academic review and were supposed to advocate for us to hospital faculty.
The Chief Resident was always treated like a scumbag. Nobody said Thank You for anything he/she did right; everybody complained and nitpicked about the schedule, the call nights and which rotation they got when.
You signed up for this, after all....
But here's for the record: Tank you for running a great website! I appreciate it.
I've stopped posting history pieces because they take a lot of thought and work and only a handful of people are interested, so why bother? I'm not saying people should get interested in history to please me, but if only a few people on the board are interested in history, and only are few are interested in technical discussions, and only a few are beyond chewing over the same stuff what is left but trolls and goofs that get attention?
I know a newsgroup where people talk serious history but I won't mention what it is because it might attract trolls.
I know I never say "nice photo" because I don't want to add to the clutter on the site. But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate them.
I always say "nice photo" or "thanks" because I want the poster to know, in no uncertain terms, that I appreciate what he posted and that I appreciate it when people do the same to me. I don't see it as clutter at all. It is just common courtesy.
And btw, this whole thread proves what I've been saying all along (and have received baseless slack about) that talking about SubTalk on SubTalk is not off-topic, otherwise Dave would have removed it.
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Paul - I can't e-mail you directly because you don't link to your e-mail address from here. But if you would e-mail the information to me, I'd be interested in a serious subway history site. I always found your historical postings fascinating.
Fytton (British academic, turning 60 next week, not a troll!)
Why not prepare them for Dave and submit to him by email for inclusion in the main portion of this site?
I've written a lot of pieces that Dave has incorporated into the main site area - sometimes original stuff, but also updates on new lines, revisions of station descriptions etc.
I'm sure Dave would like to have your work and post it, referring to it from the Table of Contents.
I meant no disrespect to Paul's website.
What I was referring to is the little "where is it" pix or the history quizzes that (I hope) get people's minds grinding. But fewer and fewer people seem interested in those (and it gets tough thinking up real questions that are both interesting and not so obscure people don't even have a shot at them).
And I'd love to know that historical link you're hiding from us :)
--Mark
Paul, not everyone who doesn't respond to the thread isn't interested. I love the historical info and photo quizzes; I would never have known what McGaw's Lane was if not for your post!
McGaws Lane is a rare example of an obscure fact that's interesting beause its so unusual, IMO.
People have responded to history pieces. Alot of times not all responces have been on topic with history.
Paul: I agree with you. It takes time to research some items which is why I don't usually answer until a day or two later. I've been posting less and less mainly because so many of the threads are non-rail or non-historic. The current rage seems to be about bums urinating in the subway. No I didn't read any of them and I don't intend too.
There are several people on this board who posts I look forward to reading; yours, Mark, Karl B and others but they tend to get lost in the shuffle with all the others. It unfortunate that too few people seem to appreciate what a wonderful asset sub-talk is. Dave must have a great sense of humor to put up with some of the stuff that I see getting posted.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I love subtalk. Many things about NY transit I never would have known if it weren't for you guys. So please stay!
Thanks guys!
His service provider may not provide a compatible database as well.
Thirdly, why change it if its worked for so long.
I personally like this board for not being able to edit posts, it makes me think a little more before hitting the "Post Message" button.
Also putting the power in the hands of a few could create problems as well. Brian doesn't like me so any thread I post gets snipped. It becomes more BS than what some say SubTalk is now.
The clutter of signatures (not that we can't have them here, but its a lot harder).
And finally, this format is a lot easier on narrowband users, IMO.
If only everyone else did the same :)
I'm not sure it would work on this kind of board, plus I imagine it requires a lot of disk space and processing, since the DB saves a full revision history.
We are guests on your board, but some of us don't seem to understand that, or just forgot that item.
-Stef
Your motivation should be that you are providing us with one of the greatest sites for devotees of the subways of the world, and especially NYC!
When things so wrong, people complain bitterly and the press immediately jumps on just the smallest mistake a transit authority could make.
On the other hand, when trains and buses are running on schedule and people get home on time no one will ever bother to say "thanks".
In the transportation business, the absence of complains and negative press coverage is probably the best compliment you can get. I suppose that also applies to operating websites?!
Let's give Dave a break. Look at it as a story with multiple authors that is a work in progress. Sometimes it requires editing. As the moderator, Dave is that editor. I think the charge of "censorship" is a bit over the top. If Dave wanted to act as a "Censor" rather than an editor, there's a lot of drivel that gets posted that could be deleted. Dave, I believe, is extremely fair and lenient in his editing; and we need to support him because of the enjoyment he so graciously provides the rest of us.
But are people afraid no one will read it or care?
As for people being afraid no one will read or care, it's probably a case of both.
So if this that did go bad then I am Sorry to all on Subtalk and mostly to Dave. I did not mean to do anything to hurt anyone on this site. I try to keep things that I post in line with the Subways. I been into trains all my life, and I try to help out if i can.
Once again, I am so Sorry and it won't happen again.
Robert
*sniffles*
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Dan
I'm trying to establish what are the main problems New Yorkers face on the subway (past, present and future). I've been to the MTA website but they are very general and not very helpful in finding out facts.
I want to know if the MTA is really addressing the problems New Yorkers face (Your opinions) and what options have been considered by the MTA and what options you think should be considered.
As I'm a Civil Engineering student, I'm also interested in innovative engineering solutions and their risks, which have been used to help improve the New York Subway.
I would be very grateful for any opinions, websites and ideas which would help me create a Portfolio. If anyone has any hardcopy information i can arrange for it to posted.
Thanks everyone!!
Peter Leung
Do you know if the main problem is old trains or is it a signalling issue? or both? Or when you say repair work, the whole system needs repairing?
Peter Leung
Because their stupid daughter jumped on the tracks?
Successful lawsuits still do.
It's slow enough already. No more timers!!
Get rid of them all!
=p
You know its going to happen eventually, every signal in the system will be a timer.
Damn I need to go back to railfanning the Queens Blvd line...
Then you and your train rot there for police reports, galoshes, sand and carbody jacks. NOT fun. I can't fathom what's WRONG with people today - back when I lived in the city, you'd just step out in front of a BUS ... at least being hit by a bus, there's still something to bury. :(
I *really* wish the MTA would do a public campaign and SHOW people what happens to them if they get on the tracks. The sheer volume of 12-9's (and yes, I hear about them privately all the time) is STUNNING. DOUBLE :( :(
Anyway, I'm terribly upset about this incident that I wrote a letter to the MTA telling them to post things in spanish on how the tracks are dangerous. But of course, it would be the American would will pay for it.
Your remark was among one of the more stupid things I've had to bear here. When this 'immigrant' was killed on the tracks, you write as if only Americans were inconvenienced, and as if an american could not have done the same thing. In fact, I've seen 3 young 'Americans' get on the tracks for no reason at all, except to sprint across a 4 track subway.
I'm terribly upset about this incident that I wrote a letter to the MTA telling them to post things in spanish on how the tracks are dangerous.
1. The victim spoke english.
2. There are presently no signs as it is, in any language. Your statement implies 2 things:
(a). Spanish-speaking people are dumber than english speaking people.
(b). The victim went down on the track-bed completely unaware of the danger, and that's why she didn't attempt to get back on the platform.
it would be the American would will pay for it.
Before you bad mouth those who don't speak english, learn to speak it yourself.
My mind IS made up. Thou art both.
If the victim was black, then you would be crying about how this person was abused by society, and how society made her so poor that she had no choice but to retreive her cell phone from the tracks or be unable to get a new one.
But since she's a white foreigner, putting her down is no problem for you.
Hispanic.
It would make a lot more sense if the false concept of race was simply abandoned and everyone was a person and not some color.
To simply refer to the victim as 'white' is wrong though.
While what you say is correct, that's what most people of that ethnic group define themselves as, not 'white' or 'black'.
now indigenous people are white now... WOW! that's a new one.. What's next... will it be jamaicans soon?
How long does it usually take for a person to be white in this country? 10/50/ 100 years.. I know it was 100 years for the Irish and Italians. What about Chinese? would you consider them white too?
They have same colored skin as white people, but that's immaterial.
They are human, people from Europe are human, people from Asia are human, people from Africa are human. People from all but one continent are human.
People from Antarctica are not human. :-)
In the context you wrote that.. White would be human first, Asian would be human second... and blacks would be human last...
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks for proving my point friend.
Listen to yourself, you can't even read correctly it shows how ignorant you are. Where on earth did he talk about numerical order for humans you idiot?! I have no respect for bigots like you.
What the heck are u talking about? Hispanic people are not indigenous, you moron. The hispanic ethnicity is a mix of white, black and native americans.
White people are indigenous as well. For example: White people are indigenous to Europe.
I also never said native americans (I think this is what you mean, and the victim was not one of these) were white.
Being that I live in Astoria, which has a large hispanic population, I can clearly tell you that the average hispanic person has some indian ancestors. From size, to color of skin and hair texture are all indicators that these people are not from the European continent. If they are white, I don't know it, unless they start speaking. But most aren't.
As for being a mixture of black, they are variations. Many people coming from Mexico/Central America are not black. They do not have black ancestors. The ones who immigrate to america are mostly of indian origins because of the oppression they receive from the whites in their countries. It is partly the reason why so many of them are short.. DIET and discrimination.
As for hispanics having Black blood, the top of the list is Dominican, then CUban, and then Puerto Rican. But Blacks can be seen in other countries as well: both in south and central america.
But black ancestors is not excluded to hispanics. Whites.. particularly some Italians and Jews. They tend to have "darker" features - like hair "coloring" and other aspects "texture".. By the way, my first wife was Italian. She had these features and I admirer her for it. I guess that why I couldn't resist getting the real thing when I married my second wife. Hahahahahaaa.
Good luck guys.
This is most insane thing you've ever said.
But black ancestors is not excluded to hispanics. Whites.. particularly some Italians and Jews. They tend to have "darker" features - like hair "coloring" and other aspects "texture".. By the way, my first wife was Italian. She had these features and I admirer her for it. I guess that why I couldn't resist getting the real thing when I married my second wife. Hahahahahaaa.
I stand corrected on my first comment.
I was considering flaming you for saying this, but then you said:
"I stand corrected on my first comment."
He went insane when he said he's 'the chosen one'. Or that he's got 'the black spirit'.
Only you a racist bastard would say that if she was white she would be entitled to the American benefits, while if she said that she was black, she would get NOTHING.
That's absolutely a true statement. God bless you my friend.
You admitted it! You called yourself a racist bastard, can't hide it now b/c you said it out of your own mouth.
Who created the concept - whites or blacks? Who had to assimulate into the "dominate" culture - whites or blacks? Who had to endure over 200 years of slavery - whites or blacks? Who said a particular race was genetically inferior - whites or blacks?
I will allow you to answer that question.
So what? I can qualify the above answer with an adjective: DEAD whites. These people are all dead now, and reversing discrimination doesn't solve the problem of past discrimination. The solution is full equality.
And also, most whites had to assimilate into the dominant culture, first it was the Germans and Irish, then the Italians and the Jews and the list goes on. Irish people were at one point called niggers. At one time, all of the groups I just mentioned were not considered white, they were considered genetically inferior. In fact, Jews suffered more than any other group for having been considered genetically inferior.
I agree with you 100 percent on this subject since my family is of Irish and German background. The prejudice that was receive (particularly on my Irish side) was outright! EVIL! I never forget the stories that my Grand father use to tell me. So I can relate to what you have been saying.. But this does not delude what African Americans have gone through, which is 100 times worse.. But keep the faith brother, because the world needs more good human beings.
Just remember that you will NEVER qualify as one of those "good" human beings.
Don't even think about bringing up the whole slavery dealie again. Almost EVERY ethnicity/background has had their hardships. You don't see me complaining about demanding stuff from Germany from when Hitler was in power (legally!) and started up the Holocaust. IT'S OVER, IN THE PAST, FINISHED. Get over it, find something else to preach about that might possibly be remotely valid.
Is she really a "White" foreigner? hmmm I see indigenous. But her skinned being light does offer her more opportunities than an African American would never see in their life times.
But in the case of this girl who jumped in the tracks, I know the reaction would have been different. Double standards are a common thing in this country.
Besides I remember the incident of a homeless woman and a white female that was discussed on these boards. And there was nothing but hatred spewed at the black woman. There was a similar incident that happened with a white guy attacking a black guy... and as expected, there were no discussions.
I rest my case.
She is not indigenous to the United States.
But in the case of this girl who jumped in the tracks, I know the reaction would have been different. Double standards are a common thing in this country.
How would the reaction have been different. People would have still called her stupid and called for her to be awarded a Darwin Award.
Besides I remember the incident of a homeless woman and a white female that was discussed on these boards. And there was nothing but hatred spewed at the black woman.
Of course there was hatred! She slashed a random passerby! That's worthy of hatred.
There was a similar incident that happened with a white guy attacking a black guy... and as expected, there were no discussions.
I am not familiar with this discussion, but most likely there were fewer discussions because you did not choose to interject your racist comments, which provoked most of the responses in the thread on the slashing.
I made one single post about it and was ignored. I expected that, but I just wanted to make sure if there would be a reaction. It wasn't of course.
By the way, I was thinking about putting my picture on here.. but out of fear of being killed, I reluctantly decline the opportunity. However, my physical characteristics are dirt blood hair and blue eyes. I'm 6'3 (I work out at the gym everyday after work) and 195 pounds. I'm 31 but look 25.. I'm considered an ideal white person, but my spirit is black. I do not regret being of this mindset, because I'm highly spiritual.. I attend chatholic services every Sunday.. so you can say my faith in GOD is very strong.
This is why you hardly notice that I curse on this board, because i'm the choosen person.
Blah, blah, blah. This is bullshit.
I do not regret being of this mindset, because I'm highly spiritual..
That statement is racist.
This is why you hardly notice that I curse on this board, because i'm the choosen person.
HEAR THAT FELLOW SUBTALKERS!!!! THE NEW JESUS IS IN OUR PRESENCE!!!!
Nobody cares about your characteristics because your character speaks for itself.
I'm considered an ideal white person, but my spirit is black.
That is pure bullshit. You sound silly.
I do not regret being of this mindset, because I'm highly spiritual.. I attend chatholic services every Sunday.. so you can say my faith in GOD is very strong.
Actually, from your posts I haven't seen that at all. A "spiritual person" doesn't say the fluff that you have said.
This is why you hardly notice that I curse on this board, because i'm the choosen person.
I know you're not serious!!!
In the past, you have considered others to be racist on this forum. For you to regard other ethnicities spirits as different is racist. Your spirit is HUMAN, not cat, dog, mouse, rat, cockroach, etc. Do you happen to be one of those subway preachers? I'll be sure to find you one day and preach you my own very word about YOU.
The last two items fit N Hate-way's profile to a T.
I could only assume you meant to say dirty blond hair.
wayne
wayne
See, that's how the Crusades worked.
wayne
I only believe in forgiving people only once they admit their flaws.
That just proves that you like to hang out in Church on Sunday mornings... I guess it doesn't cost as much as driving to the mall... Obviously you have not been paying attention to any of the services - Do you really think your Church or God would approve of that comment about immigrants you made?
wayne
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Have you ever seen a set like that?
I saw PA-1 100 a few days ago. I wish I had taken a photo of it.
Another observation: PATH PA-4 883 has the outside LED destination sign like PATH PA-4 869. Do you know if there are any others that have it, or how many there are total?
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I now rename Houston, "la la land"
It's disturbing when a kid in the backseat yells at the father driving who almost got them killed? What world is this? This happens all the time. IT's called backseat driving. You ever hear of "Watch out" "Watch for that car!", "STOP!", etc?
Let's look up this James Bart fellow. I tried and I couldn't find any public area on the Texas site to get his info. I'm dead positive he's one of those old folks who ram cars in the parking lots and flee.
Plus, those kids look like their 6 or 7, which then there's nothing illegal in the commerical. What a news story.
(If there were an emoticon for expressing sarcasm I'd use it here.)
Can you say "slow news day"?
Mark
I need to take a ride with this Bart guy, I'm positive i'd be yelling at his mistake within seconds. Maybe he's big on his cell phone!
But at least there was some train footage.
The R-30 cars spent most of their lives running on the portion of the subway referred to as the "Eastern Division", which is today's J/M/Z and L lines, and the portion of the A between 80th St and Lefferts Blvd. In their early years, they showed up just about anywhere, but later they mostly ran on the J, JJ, K, KK, L, LL, M, QJ, R, RJ, and RR lines, and a few ran on the Z. The cars were overhauled in the mid 1980's and painted in their current bright red color with black roofs. They spent their last few years running on the A and C lines, before being retired in 1993. Roughly a dozen of them still exist.
I can spot quite a few errors: The Z was not introduced until AFTER the GOH was performed on the R30 cars. These same cars never ran on the A line, not to my knowledge and experience.
LincolN can rip up this statement to his liking, he's the authority on the R27/30/30A cars.
Crap, I'm thinking of the R-27's that ran on the A, not the R-30's.
That's not what they meant I think. They said that they spent most of their lives on what is today the J/M/Z/L -the lines, not the routes. They said in the middle, "a few ran on the Z".
These same cars never ran on the A line, not to my knowledge and experience.
That got me too at first, but then I read it some more, and it's not inaccurate, just poorly written. Here's what they said:
The R-30 cars spent most of their lives running on the portion of the subway referred to as the "Eastern Division", which is today's J/M/Z and L lines, and the portion of the A between 80th St and Lefferts Blvd.
That is true, but they meant to say it this way, which is accurate:
"The R-30 cars spent most of their lives running on the portion of the subway referred to as the "Eastern Division". [What is historically referred to as the "Eastern Division" is] today's J/M/Z and L lines, and [a remnant of] the portion of the A between 80th St and Lefferts Blvd."
The end of the A train to Lefferts was part of the ED before connected to the IND. I think that's what they meant to say.
I did find a few errors though:
but they were not always red - they went through a variety of colors including green, white(!), and blue/white.
The last MTA color should be blue/silver, not white.
The cars were overhauled in the mid 1980's and painted in their current bright red color with black roofs.
They were red with black trim, and SILVER roofs.
Wait a minute, the Liberty el was connected to the IND Fulton line before the R27/30/A's were delivered. From what I've read in the past the 27/30/A's went to the A,C and H first went there in the mid 80's. Someone can elaborate on this.
The last MTA color should be blue/silver, not white.
Blue and white, HA! Speaking of the all white, they must of watched the movie Beat Street ;-D since there was a all white R27/30 train. Were there any BMT/IND cars that recieved the white paint treatment?
The cars were overhauled in the mid 1980's and painted in their current bright red color with black roofs.
They were red with black trim, and SILVER roofs.
The R27's that were painted in the Redbird scheme weren't GOH'ed either so there's another error. They should of been more specific.
Still confusing. Yes true. Even I didn't make it clear, after their confusing sentence. They were describing two seperate things and that made it confusing. First, they were saying that the R27-30's ran on the Eastern Division mostly, the JMZL lines. Then they tried to explain what "Eastern Division" meant, forgetting the reference to the R27-30's. They described the "Eastern Division" as the JMZL lines and also a part of the eastern end of the A to Lefferts. That has nothing to do with the R27-30's, but their explation is confusing, and if even we are getting confused by that phrase as railfans, it would certainly go way over the heads of the average person.
The R-30 order was for 320 cars, 60 of which (8352-8411) were R-30As.
David
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Well folks. I said it before on another thread the other day. There is just no money in Washington anymore because of this war! We are spending billions over there fighting guys pulling missles on donkey carts in the hope that killing them will make us safer. It won't.
Transit is about to take a hit which means more people will end up driving. We for the most part have an excellent transportation system but for those cities that don't will have to struggle with more surface traffic. It's as simple as that.
The interesting thing I noticed is that the worse traffic is, the more recpetive people appear to be when it comes to transit projects. So, the worse it all is now, the more transit stuff we'll be seeing in the future than if we stayed at present course. That's what I think.
The only barrier should be random nutjobs and their propanda who are scared of "change". Ie, the people afriad of the train crashing into their kids schools and other nonsense. Also see "Houston".
With car polution, who's benefitting/profitting from the health problems there anyway?
These are the powerful forces that keep transit from growing like it should. In fact, they are the powerful forces that dismantled most of our streetcar systems in the first place.
It's amazing how when transit and sound urban planning are attempted, people criticize it saying "we don't want any social engineering." Yeah, like the deliberate dismantling of streetcar systems, redling that forced homeowners into suburban-style developments, zoning that forces businesses to be far from homes, and a complete absence of transit between those businesses and homes isn't social engineering!
Mark
Well no it isn’t. It’s certainly deliberate something. However, I would describe engineering as an attempt to create a working entity, whatever that may be…and the current McMansion not-quite-low-enough density housing so as not to require significant infrastructure improvements doesn’t cut it at all!
WHO MAY MOVE CARS
CARS MAY ONLY BE MOVED BY TRAIN OPERATORS OR OTHER EMPLOYEES QUALIFIED TO OPERATE TRAINS.
question. Besides Train Operators and Train Service Supervisors who else is qualified to run a subway train?
That's my educated guess, anyone know for sure?
Elias
No.
So, they keep a T/O stashed in a corner somewhere, just in case they want to make a move?
: ) Elias
CI's and RCI's are NOT permitted to operate and require a motorman to move trains on their behalf inside the shops.
All of them did, it is a requirement.
There was someone in CED that was considered road qualified, too.
You might remember CI Peter ... although the TA doesn't consider him qualified, I piloted him along on an arnine and an R17 and he's quite qualified as well. Alas, they wouldn't let him move anything on TA property just the same. Thus, good to hear that SOMEBODY in CED is up to the task - never could figure out how you can properly test equipment without being able to actually "feel" it in your hands to determine if your repair was done right. But that's me I s'pose ...
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This is very interesting. O'Dea is dead right when he states the beneficiary of the extention will NOT be Hudson County. Everyone knows what's happening to the Meadowlands complex regarding the loss of the Nets, Devils and commercial district. Not long ago, they wanted to build a mega mall in the same location but that idea went down in flames as the state would not allow them to clear the wetlands. The entire area will lose millions in revenue in the coming years as development staginated and moved elsewhere.
Newport center practically killed the Hudson and Secaucus mall as the New York Metro shopper no longer journeys into the sprawl for inexpensive clothing. Furthermore, the motorist abandoned Secaucus altogether by prefering to patronize Paramus Park or Willowbrook where there is greater selection. If it weren't for the movie theaters and resturants, the entire Secaucus shopping district would die a slow death! You can see why they want the HBLR extended because Hudson County is booming they lost all their business.
In my opinion, we should not extend the line at all. Let those in the burbs find their own customers. The people who use the LightRail the most are Bayonne residents so any extention sshould be in that direction.
John
It took nearly a 75 years for downtown Jersey City to recover from the collapse of the railroad. Now that Jersey City is booming from massive developement with the help of the Lightrail, it seems everyone wants a piece of the action. All of a sudden, cities in the burbs wants a "Lightrail" in their own backyard.
All I can say is, too bad. There is no way we can extend the line (HBLR) as costs are enormous and the cities are the ones who have to pick up the tab. Furthermore, extending the line all the way out there will lengthen the headway which is NOT what the city commuter wants! What happened to those trolley lines in Secaucus I see in old photos at the turn of the century? Why don't they find a developer who will put down traction lines giving them a ROW specifically for Xanadu? Here's a better idea. Why not relocate Xanadu in Jersey City or Hoboken. There's plenty of space all along the Lightrail and they can get in real cheap at todays prices.
As it stands, the best Xanadu can hope is for the motorist to feel pity which is not likely to happen.
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The MTA now does not want to spend the money on the #7 line extension as the Feds and U.S. Olympic Officals want the proposed Javits Center subway terminal to be closed for the duration of the 2012 Summer Olympics. (Assuming that NY gets the nod in 2006.)
Was the light rail line in Utah really shut down for the entire Olympics? And did they not allow any buses to come near the venues too?
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Futhermore, they haven't even began building the new stadium yet. I'm sure it this whole thing will be litigated for years before anything is build. Trump tried to build there years ago and failed. There are a lot of deep pockets in that part of town.
I still suspect that some Penn Station operations will be affected by the upcoming Republican National Convention. It would not suprise me at all to see Penn shut while the President is in attendance. At least we'll know soon enough.
What happened to “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few”?
Javits is still busy, Guiliani's crackdown on Mob control helped, but it's losing out on more and more big conventions because it's just too small. That's not good for the city's image, makes it seem like a second-rate sort of place.
If the city hands MTA the money to build the extension, MTA will build it. The issue is whether Governor Pataki and the legislature want other than city money to be applied to the project. The MTA's position, as reported in the newspaper, is apparently "no."
And then there is the New York City convention ego.
All i all, I favor expanding Javits and runing a subway to it. But I admit that a small part of my motivation is that it would serve as something MTA could build and help the agency and the city get over the problem of talk, talk, plan, plan, then nothing.
Would I use it when in NY? Yes.
Convention centers are just a manifestation of the zero-sum copmpetition between cities and regions that's affecting many aspects of economic life. Companies that have announced an intention to relocate are wined and dined like high school All-American basketball stars. In a way this is counterproductive, as cities and states which manage to snare companies have to pay a lot in the process, not to mention the moral issues associated with a beggar-thy-neighbor policy, but that's just the way things go. I'll note that New York City leaders generally do not participate in this pursuit of new business, presumably from the (long since obsolete) belief that the city's "amenities" will attract business no matter how costly and hostile its business climate may be. How totally retarded!
(As proof of how the city's economy is so much weaker than elsewhere, consider the fact that two of the city's most famous restaurants are going out of business this weekend. Fine dining opportunities are among the amenities that the city cites in attracting tourists and business executives. Now, those opportunities are rapidly diminishing.)
That's true, and no one has claimed that New York will get every convention the Javits can hold. The problem is the increasing number of conventions for which New York isn't even in the running, because the Javits is so small. IMO, expanding the Javits is a no-brainer. That doesn't necessarily mean that extending the #7 is justified. You could be in favor of one, without being in favor of the other.
As proof of how the city's economy is so much weaker than elsewhere, consider the fact that two of the city's most famous restaurants are going out of business this weekend. Fine dining opportunities are among the amenities that the city cites in attracting tourists and business executives. Now, those opportunities are rapidly diminishing.
This proves nothing. Have you studied the pattern of restaurant closures in NY to other cities? Have you compared the number of closures in New York to the number of openings in NY? Today's NYT article on the subject mentions that several high-end restaurants are about to open in the new Time Warner Center. The trend isn't just one way. I wouldn't call two closures "rapidly diminishing."
There are quite a few high-end restaurants in NY that have continued to flourish, and all articles I've read about the Lutece closing mention that the restuarant never managed to keep up the quality after the founding chef departed in 1994, and that a re-tooling of the menu two years ago alienated the clientele. It's easy to blame 9/11, when the real truth may be bad management. That's capitalism for you. Some die, so that others may live on.
A massive expansion of the Javits Center without an extension of the 7 might be a bad idea. Convention hosts would have to provide many additional shuttle buses, and the extra cost might make Javitsd less competitive with other mega-centers.
Yes, certainly that's the argument in favor of the #7 project. Even today, the Javits is perceived as hard-to-reach, and the amenities immediately surrounding it are poor. The Javits was supposed to lead the renewal of the far west side, and it simply didn't happen—at least not to the degree that was hoped.
That said, the question with any transit project is not merely whether it would be beneficial, but whether the benefits justify the costs. For this particular project, I remain agnostic on that question.
Well, no. Reason: A much-expanded convention center in New York really does require better access to mass transit. Javits is too far to comfortably walk, and so is bus and taxi deendent. In New York City, that's a non-starter. So, yes, expanding Javits means extending a subway line to it.
I do agree that subway access would make the Javits an easier sell, but the analysis needs to consider the competitive position of an expanded Javits both with and without the subway extension.
Agreed! I think there's a strong case, but it needs to be laid out formally, quantitatively and with the appropriate comparators.
Meeting planners like easy transportation. Those motorcoaches don't come and hire themselves, and traffic doesn't move out of the way like "Bruce Almighty". And as a convention goer at the time, I couldn't figure out why the subway must've been at least 3 blocks away. Actually that street needs something on it too, it's got the feeling like I'm walking to the docks. But keep the highline, I couldn't find it when I was there and can't believe I got a pic of it purely by accident.
The Lutece in Las Vegas is said to be doing very well, and will remain open. Competition for a restaurant probably is tougher in Las Vegas than it is anywhere else in the country. If the managers can keep the Las Vegas Lutece thriving, it should be a snap for them to do fine in New York too. The fact that they can't, is likely a sad commentary on the state of New York's economy. People here just don't have the money for fancy meals, and there are no longer enough tourists to make up the difference.
As for the closing of Gage & Tollner, I'm speechless. It has been around for eons in restaurant terms, through the toughest of times imaginable, but today's economic environment is just too difficult an obstacle. Unbelieveable.
Anybody up for a celebrity death pool-style contest to guess the next upscale New York restaurant to fail? Peter Luger? Union Square Cafe? Le Bernardin?
People in NYC have higher culinary standards than people in Las Vegas. Lutece degenerated from superb to unpredictable, and at their prices they were only worthwhile if superb. This has nothing to do with the state of the New York economy whatsoever.
I've been to Gage and Tollner twice, and they definitely had service management problems both times. Also not good if you are very expensive for your neighborhood.
N bwy
It's too small for many large conventions.
Looking for something constructive to do? Look over these photos: Photos with no definite locations.
If you recognize any locations, discuss here!
(NOTE: Some of those photos have locations in the "Notes" field instead of the "Location" field, and some don't really need locations at all, so skip those and work on the tough ones!)
-Dave
I'd say it may be north of N. Conduit.
--Mark
74 St-Broadway.
Port Newark. I'm certain it's in New Jersey. May be Jersey City (note the skyline in back)
--Mark
pic 26603
There's no way the uptown platform visible at the right edge of the phoot has that big space seen in the picture under debate.. Plus there's a curve in the platform which isn't really apparent in the debated photo..
--Mark
-William A. Padron
["Mott Av.-Far Rockaway"]
--Mark
Bob Sklar
This one is definitely 111th Street on Jamaica. That now gone building in the backround was identified in another photo (on this site) at 111th St.
To get started on some more, the next few I can narrow down to at least a line, maybe someone else can get it further:
These have to be one of the Liberty El stations, because of the columns on the canopy. Broadway and Jamaica which are built similarily, don't have those columns. Clickable:
These two are definitely on the Broadway El, I'm thinking one of the four stations between Chauncey and Kosciuszko. They are the same train in the same station on the same fantrip:
So that leaves the ONLY stations it could be as Gates in either direction, Halsey in either direction, Kosciuszko looking westward at the Queens platform, or Chauncey looking east at the Queens platform.
Come on guys, we can do this one, that's only 6 view of where it could be. Remember the building in the backround may be gone (as many are on Broadway). If you can't get the location, maybe you can positively rule out another, making it one less place it could be.
So according to your remaining possiblities , after ruling out the Queens platforms, that would leave 3 possible solutions to further critique , one of which is the answer :
The Manhattan bound platform looking eastward at :
Gate Ave
Halsy St
Chauncey St
We are almost there .
Look at the shadows to get the side - the sun's rather high, so they're not the greatest ever. Now as to why it's Gates:
Note the turret on the far right side in the distance.
Now look at this picture of the Manhattan bound side at Halsey and you'll see the same feature on the left hand side of the shot:
So BINGO!!! 6628 and 6436 are Gates.
There's another more obviosu reason why it has to be the Manhattan-bound side. Look carefully at the shadows.
Image 26447 (photo 137 of 150) is identified as BU 912 when it appears to be an IRT Manhattan el car. It's not like any BU 900 series that I have ever seen.
Do you agree?
BU 912 had no headlight, outboard markers, wider end platforms, inoperable center door and car numbers painted above the windows, not on a window pane.
If this picture is NY, it has to be a IRT Manhattan el car.
Being 80th St-Hudson:
The top photo is the mystery photo, and it has the same little object at the extreme right in the first photo between the outer track and the express track as in the second photo between the tracks, which is confirmed to be 80th St-Hudson. The backround is also the same.
Right, I was thinking Ft Greene Park (not a highway divider) and the single-story commercial buildings across the street.
Thanks for formalizing something I did on my own for fun whenever new images came onto this site !
BTW, "redux" means, not, "revisited" but, "indicating a return to health after disease", from Latin "reducere", to bring back.
I tried to e-mail the book's printer about these errors late last September, but got a "fatal error" message, so I'm not sure if my message ever got through.
I got the impression, and I emphasize it was my impression, that there was not much concern about caption errors once the book was published.
I still have my comments, and would still like to e-mail them to the author, even though you got the impression that there was not much concern about caption errors once the book was published.
This first photo below has those buildings same in the background, and the following has the church steeple seen in the mystery photo:
Image 6600 : Reaffirm : Fulton el @ Conduit Blvd., Euclid and Liberty Aves. "Double gallows"-style "parkway" wooden lamp-posts used to be on Conduit Blvd.
Image 7581 : BMT Fulton el somewhere over Pitkin Ave.
Image 26428 : BMT Fulton el, either Pennsylvania or Van Siclen, looking east. Building just above and to left of vanishing point is PS 159 @ n/e corner of Pitkin Ave and Crescent St. This same bldg. appears in same place near vanishing point of images of Linwood, Montauk and Chestnut St. stations of BMT Fulton el, facing east, only larger.
Come on, old timey experts, Karl B, Paul Matus, Jeffrey Rosen, help me out here !
Image 26424 : BMT Fulton el at either Pitkin and Euclid or Liberty and Euclid. Compare to photo bottom of p. 51, Unifying The Subways, by Frederick A. Kramer. Book says Jamaica el, but it's one of the two end of the Fulton el s-curve on Euclid between Pitkin and Liberty Aves.
Photo date of 4/21/56 is, tantalizingly, one day before 4/22/56 : date of March 2004 image of Bill Newkirk subway calendar, showing BMT Fulton el to IND Fulton subway connection just east of Grant Avenue station.
Image 7981 : My "educated guess" : BMT Fulton el on Euclid between Pitkin and Liberty Avenues (Chestnut and Crescent St. stations, respectively).
Both are 52 St-Lincoln Av.
26683 (w/ R62A 1745) is likely to be 52 St-Lincoln Av as well, due to the heavy vegetation in the background.
#4629 -- Coney Island Yard (easy one)
#26105 -- Correct location with a nitpick -- it is adjacent to the Avenue X SBK Yard
#27927 -- Probably Corona Yard
#7641 -- Myrtle L crossing Grand Avenue (site of former station)
Thanks for trying to save us from a life of evil, Dave!
Of course, much was lost even before demolition day. In the last decade or so of opeation, they gutted the former station houses--no more potbellied stoves, stained less, decorative woodwork. They really knew how to kill history in those days.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Based on the vegetation on the right side of the picture and the lettering on the sign on the left side of the picture (through the T/O's front and side windows, my guess is that that station is 103rd St-Corona Plaza.
Koi
Rollsign clearly shows a '6' (white font on black roll)...
the building at rear RIGHT may be Lehman HS (or what's the name
of the station BEFORE Westchester Yard where there's a
snap-curve involved coming nb?)
(I zoomed and brightened the image using a video-editing software)
The giveaway that it's PELHAM is also the "standee blocks" at
mid-platform on the center track... (those which appear near
WSTCHESTER YD).
Buildings at LEFT (much like the 1s on Buhre Avenue?)
Has to be 170 Street going nb... (the curve in the distance is that giant -S- el curve)
?
What ever little jack i know about the 4 line, i was simply implying there
was a station IN THA NEIGHBORHOOD which bore resemblance to that 1...
heh thanks!
Reference photo
pic 293
Reference photo
I have several other high quality pictures and slicks from this binder which contains a proposal to the Hong Kong Mass Transit Railway. I bought the presentation on E-bay a while back, and I can't find any info relating to ownership of the photos within. Do you think it's safe for me to assume that I can legally share them with you?
-Steve
img 7257 - this is 239th street Yard
img 26282 and 26099 is indeed 39th ave- beebe Astoria line
img 4211 is none other than 69th street-fisk ave
img 7386 is the White Plains Road Line didnt have a station but a clue was the IRT signaling which didnt get changed till after 2000
and finally, img 24513 is the Astoria Line around 1961-1964 probably ill take a guess of 36th-Washington Aves clue was the R30 showing Q which ran on the Astoria Line at the time.
Hope this patches a few holes David.
JONN
Forgive me if this has been discussed already, but since no one
is changing subject lines it is difficult to wade through it all.
I'd have to go back into the shoeboxes and find the slide and rescan it if you want it larger. Probably not going to get around to that any time soon...
I am surprised that the slide was scanned at such a low resolution.
Thought perhaps the online image was a "web" version and that you
had a higher res image kept offline from which it was derived.
Anyway, don't trouble yourself. I am 95% sure that the signal
reads 48Lc.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?27926
It almost looks like the car was derailed and wrecked, then abandoned in place. That seems pretty weird, though. Any ideas what the circumstances surrounding this are? Too bad none of the MUDC's were saved...
Frank Hicks
As I recall, many cars were scrapped in this area near what is currently the West Farms Bus Depot, particularly Hi-Vs which were cut up and reduced to nothing....
-Stef
I've seen some images of #700 series BRT "el" cars scrapped right on that same site. I believe there was an amusement park on that site many years ago.
The "el" cars were set afire and after the ashes cooled, the remaining scrap metal was carted away. Some Hi-V or Low-V's were also burned to a crisp along with the "el" cars.
Bill "Newkirk"
I used to see alot of the intersection of Conduit Blvd. and Liberty and Euclid Avenues, but not since the mid-70's at the latest. I think I last rode through there Easter Sunday 1987. The building I remember the most is the firehouse on the south side of Liberty Avenue just west of Conduit.
Image 4415: R-36wf #9766 at 46th Street-Bliss Street, IRT Flushing Line. The trackbed's border line between the elevated steel and concrete steel structures is visible at the point of the car's lead end.
Image 26588: Lo-V #5483 at Dyckman Street, IRT Broadway (West Side) Line. The Nagle Housing Projects are in the background.
Image 7275: R-22 #RD359(ex-#7515) is definitely at Morris Park station, IRT Dyre Avenue Line. The heavy steel support is quite evident here like a stuck out thumb, and not at Baychester Avenue.
Image 26629: Lo-V at 149th Street-3rd Avenue, IRT West Farms Road (Bronx) line. One station platform column shows an "E." midday, thus suggesting to read "3rd Ave." Also, there is a cut in the station wall on the right side of the photo to lead into an overpass as a possibility.
-William A. Padron
["Wash. Hts.-8th Av. Exp."]
The photograph(s) is looking south toward the next station, 207th Street, along 10th Avenue. The top roof of the IND 207th Street Shops can be seen on the left side, and the tall apartment buildings overlooking Fort George Hill are in the background.
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-Lefferts Blvd." or "Mott Av.-Far Rockaway"]
I'm pretty sure this one is Bay Parkway.
My guess on this one is Elder Avenue.
I suspect (given the rather distinctive building in the backround is near the former Sumner Av station) that this one is Tompkins Av on the Myrtle Av El.
This one should be fairly easy for someone to identify given the arrangement of buildings - I can't find any near matches though.
Confirmed photo at Bay parkway:
However, after some thought, I think this one may be Buhre Ave instead of Elder:
I say this because in the following photo, which is definitely Buhre Ave, the same building appears to be in the background. You see more of it in the mystery photo because the train is back a little further and on the center track instead of the local track.
While on the subject, I stumbled this inconsistency while looking for something on the Culver to match a mystery photo
This photo is in both the 13th Ave section:
And the Fort Hamilton Pkwy section:
I don't know which one is right, but one of these photos is not at home because it's the same photo. I’m leaning towards 13th Ave being the proper location because in this photo, confirmed to be 13th Ave, that factory appears to be in the background:
This mystery photo (first) is at 36th Ave-Washington. Compare building to second photo, confirmed to be there.
Intervale Ave. The railing is consistent with Contract 1 or 2 construction. It has to be either the upper end of the 1 line, or the West Farms El between East 180th St and Jackson Ave. Besides, I think I found a shot taken from the other end of the platform
First photo mystery, second one confirmed at Intervale:
Even though the next mystery photo says “Jamaica”, it is not the Jamaica El, but is indeed an Eastern Division station. The straight and flat roofline was only constructed that way only on the Dual Contract Eastern Division stations.
It’s not the Jamaica El because the center track only existed at 160th and 111th. 160th was too urban for that scene, and 111th also didn’t have that many trees near the station. It is also not the Broadway el because of the trees, but also because of the station construction itself. In the background you can see that there are “columns” holding up the canopy roof. The ONLY place this happens is on the Liberty El. This being a Liberty El station, it has to be a station near a park, vacant land, or…..a cemetery. The mystery photo is taken at 80 St-Hudson St, which has the cemetery next to it.
To get started on this one, this photo could only have been taken on the upper end of the 1 line, or a local station on the West Farms El between East 180th St and Jackson Ave because of the railing and lights. These railings were only used on Contract 1 and 2 construction. I'm thinking it's the upper end of the 1 line at either 207th or 215th St because it is sort of industrial around there with smoke stacks. You don't have that on the West Farms El. What do you guys think?
Regards,
Jimmy
See this 1974 reference photo with the same building. I think the building was demolished some time after Joe's picture was taken.
Photo is not much different from this 1979 Low-V photo
See this reference photo by Doug (sorry I mistook Doug's other photo I mentioned as Joe T's photo at Avenue H, 2 posts ago on this thread. It's still Avenue H)
subfan
I will get back sometime today to find the correct location, should not be a difficult one to locate.
img_3978
But assuming otherwise, I think Mt. Eden is the most logical choice.
I will go with Mt. Eden Ave then.
Anyone want to confirm this?
Here is the reference photo. Note the two overpasses beyond the west end of the station.
Image 2280: R-9 #1709 is indeed at Jamaica Yard. Based upon looking this same photo in Gene Sansome's book "Evolution of the New York City Subways", plus similar pictures in Fred Kramer's book "Subway to the World's Fair", the background setting is in a very wilderness-like, bucolic-type setting.
Image 6920: Lo-V #4147 at 125th Street-Broadway, IRT West Side Line. The platform girders underneath here are in a criss-cross pattern, and I believe that is probably the only Contract 1 constructed location to have such a design.
Image 26314: BMT Multi at Lefferts Boulevard on the current IND Fulton Street Line, Queens. The buildings on the left are of the two-three story variety, and the platform canopy plus the light fixture barely peeking out in this cropped image is quite evident here.
Image 26300: BMT Multi at 80th Street-Hudson Street also on the current IND Fulton Street Line, Queens. This location was identified based upon the variety and design plus number of the track electrical boxes located among the three intermediate straight-away stations (80th-Hudson, 88th-Boyd and 111th-Greenwood) with some other photos on this web page, and in my own private collection.
Also, that image mentioned above looks like it was taken just prior to the IND takeover on this section, because of the new third rail installed here necessary for the R-1/9, R-10 and R-16 cars that would run there eventually.
-William A. Padron
["Fulton St. Local"]
I just now came back from a round trip on the Liberty Avenue elevated portion, with an "A" train of R-44's to go and come back from Lefferts Boulevard. Based on checking and remembering the images from the web pages and pictures from on my collection, as well physically checking and looking at all the stations built with a non-curved platform design, it is now valid and proper to say it is really 111th Street-Greenwood Avenue instead.
I say this now because I noticed upfront the GRS signal electrical box that is placed in the catwalk near to the Manhattan-bound track is at bit further from the concerte & metal barrier at 111th Street-Greenwood Avenue. The one at 80th Street-Hudson Street is much closer to that station's barrier.
Also, there were no signal electrical box found in the catwalk near the Queens-bound track here at 111th Street-Greenwood Avenue, as seen in the photo and, ahem, in my personal inspection out there in the field today. Rechecking the two other stations in question (80th Street-Hudson Street and 88th Street-Boyd Avenue), there were an abundance of such "hardware" along each of the catwalks at those stations.
So, image 26300 is at 111th Street-Greenwood Avenue. I deeply regret the error here.
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-Lefferts Blvd."]
John
Look at this photo of the Hi-V that was easy, it appears to be the current #1 line and there is only one spot that looks high enough to be that. Note the painted ads on the building behind the station and the building itself.
Now take a look at street level shot on Broadway near 125th st/IRT station and see the same building again, with different ads of course. :-)
I have another one, I am sure.
Look at this photo of the Hi-V that was easy, it appears to be the current #1 line and there is only one spot that looks high enough to be that. Note the painted ads on the building behind the station and the building itself.
Now take a look at street level shot on Broadway near 125th st/IRT station and see the same building again, with different ads of course. :-)
(Quietly slinks down to Bat-Cave to identify some more pictures.) 8-)
Image26279 = Ditmas Ave on the Culver:
Time sure wasn't kind to that building in the background!
While trying to match that one, I found this photo that is in the Broadway section of Astoria, but is really Beebe Ave, taken from the same angle. Wow, that R32 really looked sharp!
P.S.: I remember that photo from Gene Sansone's "Evolution of New York City Subways"! It's in the R33S/R36WF/R36ML pages, of course.
Agreed that the station called 33rd Street; the caption was copied from the book.
The construction of the station is the most common type of el station construction. This construction is seen on the Pelham El, the Upper White Plains El, the Jerome El, the el portion of the Flushing Line, the Astoria el, and the West End el. Even though it's an IRT train, it's a work train so it could have been on any of those lines. I found this photo in the Whitlock Ave section of the Pelham line, and it appears to be another photo of the same train. So I guess the two mystery photos are at Whitlock Ave if indead the latter one is indeed Whitlock Ave.
Acutal photo at Whitlock Ave
Now for the photos in the wrong place:
3177, WHERE'S THE SHERIDAN EXPRESSWAY?
as well as 3173.
In 1978, I gave the late Steve Zabel about 200 negatives to be made into 35mm slides. About two-thirds of them were completed, and the rest were never returned due to his untimely death. Many of the completed ones were sold by Steve over the years with my permission, but I was never credited as the photographer. I can't fault Joe for that, since he had no way of knowing the identity of the photographer.
I can identify at least 3 of the images that I took:
1. Image 6922, #97: Flivver motor 4158 at Freeman St. 2/5 lines, in early May 1961.
2. Image 26077, #61: BMT standard #2721 at Avenue U on the Brighton Line, taken on 12-30-58.
3. Image 7994, #98: Lo-V 4581 at Avenue P on the Culver Line, on an ERA fan trip, October 29, 1960. I can identify the fans at the storm door -- left to right: Paul Adams, Steve Ginsberg, and Frankie Perez.
About 10 years ago, a local railfan and photographer converted about 1200 additional black-and-white negatives into 35mm slides at a very reasonable price. Unfortunately, he is now deceased. I have been scanning some of my slides into 8 x 10 prints with very good results. If anyone is interested in purchasing these, you can contact me by e-mail.
I would appreciate if you could identify me as the photographer of these images. Thanks for posting these pictures and sharing them with fellow railfans. Keep up the good work!
If there are photos miscredited please let me know less cryptically, i.e. by photo number in Feedback, and I'll fix them right away.
Sorry,
-Dave
I did not take any credit for your shot at the Naporano scrapyard at Coney Island. I don't know where you got that information. Any shots I've taken I have double-checked and have the negatives to prove it.
Photo #26110 is taken from Fort Hamilton Parkway BMT Culver line looking east.
See this photo:
http://culvershuttle.com/last_days/pages/056.htm
-Larry
IIRC the Labor Day Parade used to go up Fifth Avenue and the tall apartment buildings are only north of CPS.
Reference photo:
I wonder if the "IAN" visible on the building at the right edge of the color reference photo # 26436 is part of "TRIANGLE FURNITURE". They used to have a store at Myrtle and St. Nicholas Avenues and Madison Street in Ridgewood, so perhaps Triangle had one in Bushwick also.
There are all too few photos of Gates, Halsey and Chauncey St. stations on the BMT Broadway Jamaica el. It's always good to have another one.
I agree. That's why I was happy to donate some of the current ones on the Broadway El to the site. I think most photographers "abandoned" taking photos on the Broadway El once the neighborhood went to hell in the 70's and 80's. I don't think I would have gotten off there either with a camera, at a deserted station surrounded by burnt and abandoned buildings. Now that the neighborhood is so much better, it a viable spot again. Actually, the days that I took my photos there, the stations were rather busy too, certainly nothing to be worried about. However, I did postpone my Hewes St photos the first time I went there because there was some screaming, mentally ill homeless guy there when I got off. I didn't want to ask for trouble either, so just got back on the train and figured I would "get it next time", which I did.
I wouldn't get off at a deserted station surrounded by burnt and abandoned buildings either, especially with a camera.
Again, you were wise to postpone your Hewes St. photos. A colleague of mine was in Beekman Downtown Hospital birefly in 1991 after a homeless person accosted and assaulted him on the street.
-William A. Padron
["B'klyn-Church Av."]
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/nyc_transit_modelers_group/vwp?.dir=/MellowOne&.dnm=South+Ferry+1880%27s.jpg&.src=gr&.view=t&.hires=t
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/nyc_transit_modelers_group/vwp?.dir=/MellowOne&.dnm=South+Ferry+SV+1880%27s.jpg&.src=gr&.view=t&.hires=t
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/nyc_transit_modelers_group/vwp?.dir=/MellowOne&.dnm=PC+20c+View+of+South+Ferry.jpg&.src=gr&.view=t&.hires=t
Jonn
PICTURE 358 SOUTH BOUND TRAIN AT THE NORTH END OF BURE AVE.STATION.
PICTURE 1003 NORTH OF THE SHOP AT 180TH STREET YARD.
AEM7
AEM7
AEM7
AEM7
Michael
AEM7
AEM7
AEM7
img 13831 Fairbanks St., Cleveland Circle/Beacon St Branch (C-line)
img 13876 Beacon St., Brandon Hall Westbound
img 13870 The ///// Parking is only on Beacon St. and only in Brookline. The location is close to Coolidge Corner/St Paul St./Kent St., most likely St. Paul.
img 13902 Tappan St. & Beacon St.
Okay, I finally got bored with this. Thanks for the fun.
AEM7
I have ruled out most of the stations(and former shuttle which were the same) by the signals, etc in the station, and am leaning towards Avenue N at this time.
6955 - a LoV 5002, Allerton Ave. White Plains Line, looking south from south end of n/b platform. The old section break signal gives away the location, as I took a similar shot there many years ago.
26622 - a set of HiV Gibbs cars rounding the curve at Buhre Ave. Pelham Line
26465 - Oak Point Yard - New Haven RR, Bronx, NY
3747 - R-29 8596, Westchester Sq., Pelham Line, June 3, 1962. I was on that fan trip run by Everett White's Transit Improvement Assoc.
3342 - R-22 #7575. New Haven RR Van Nest Yard, Bronx, NY. Looks like the car is en route from builder St. Louis Car Co. to NYCTA at the E. 180th St. Interchange
6328 - B-type 2299, Rockaway Pkwy Yard, Canarsie, NY
6695 - BU gate car #759 at Coney Island Yard
7031 - LoV 5408, 177th St. West Farms, White Plains Line. Looking at the curves and the tower in the background that controlled the interlocking for the Seventh Ave. line and elevated yard identifies it.
Jonn
JONN
Mystery Photo:
Avenue I (slightly different angle from above)
It's amazing how so many little things have survived on the line after all the track reconstructions. Those little signal boxes (or whatever they are) are still there.
Avenue N is slightly different:
Jonn
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-207th St."]
There was a crossover just north of the station, which had been dismantled sometime in the late 1950's. I don't know when it was actually last used in service.
I took the shot on June 30, 1959.
#23902 and #27900 - IRT 239th Street Yard, Bronx. This location is based upon my hecking with similiar images on this website, plus with some 8x10 prints in my private collection showing a newly delivered R-17 car and the "G" money collection car there.
#4423 - 103rd Street-Corona Plaza, IRT Flushing Line, Queens. This image was taken on 6/14/1964 by Doug Grotjahn at this station, as well as images #4410 and #4414. My educated guess and theory that Doug, as like many railfan photographers (including even me), was getting all his snapshots there at just one spot, so as to capture the special decorated R-36 World's Fair cars with each of the state's name on the exterior.
Now the correctons:
#4058 - This R-33/36 WF fantrip train, which was a substitute for the museum BMT AB Standards that day, was photographed at Beach 90th Street-Holland, IND Rockaway Line, Queens, a two-track station...NOT at 90th Street-Elmhurst Avenue, IRT Flushing Line, Queens, a three track station.
#23253 - R-4 #777 was photographed at Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue as part of a "D" train running on the ex-BMT Culver line in Brooklyn...NOT at Mott Avenue-Far Rockaway, IND Rockaway Line, Queens. The giveaway in this image are of the station platform's lamps, which are designed in the typical Dual Contracts-BRT/BMT style and positioned in a zig-zag manner.
-William A. Padron
["Fulton-Lefferts Blvd."]
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
-Chris
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
Image 6697 - BU #916 at BMT Fresh Pond Yard, Queens. Those long lampposts are the tell tale sign characteristics of this spot, plus just a bit peak of the top of an apartment building in the background. Also, since this location had once stored the Myrtle Avenue el's wooden open-platform units, this BU unit is sporting Metropolitan Avenue side destination metal plates.
Image 8163 - Lo-V work motor #31090 (ex-#5606) is on one of the drill tracks on the surface at Lenox (147th Street) Yard, Manhattan. For those passengers who were on that recent R-33wf MOD fantrip when it came there, you will easily recognize that lenghty beige building in the background.
Image 26457 - Lo-V #5482 is indeed at 239th Street Yard, the Bronx. The elevated ramp in the background connects with the IRT White Plains Road line, and it does oversees the yard as a train would operate on it as either coming from or going into storage.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
It's clearly not Ditmas Ave, as there would be switches between there and 18 Ave.
Not Avenue I, as 18 Ave's tower (if they even have one) would be at the opposite end of the station in the background.
Has to be either Avenue P or Avenue U. Is Kings Highway's tower at the north or south end of the platform?
image 30917 is at Coney Island Ave & Neptune Ave. I remember the gas stations as a kid. That Texaco one in the background used to be on the corner of Coney Island Ave & Banner Ave, just before the Belt Pkwy.
Image 20812 is on the corner of Sea Breeze Ave and West 5th St - not Surf Av. In fact, the street signs appear to be twisted. W 5th runs under the El, and Sea Breeze Ave runs parallel with it until West 5th, where it stops, just as can be seen in the picture.
image 30871 is on Sea Breeze Ave at Ocean Parkway. image 30866 is also at the same location.
--Mark
If not, the location looks close to broadway on the astoria el - looking north from the ditmars bound platform. In particual - in 24611 the track looks to dips downgrade a bit, there is still that house on the left that is more or less the exact same shape there today, and way off in the distance that gray line on the horizon could be the hell gate approach. I also vaguely recall 31st having telephone poles when i was a kid. Some streets in astoria still have them, but i'm quite sure they're gone from 31st...
What doesn't add up though is the structure of the el - that ironwork between the two tracks should be behind the photographer - unless the station was extended northward at some point.
IRT train - especially a work train, probably in off the current day 7 line...
I lived at broadway stop more or less my entire life and I still live along the line, and except for that ironwork, I would swear it's broadway stop...
[code]http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31994[/code]
Looking at the background, it has been taken between 40/Lowery St. and 46/Bliss Street. If you look carefully where it says "Crete Restaurant", that's at around 43rd-44th street in Queens Blvd.
And an R62A 7 local going to Manhattan on Local Tracks. I can't quite tell what train the photo was taken from. No doubt one of those IRT SMEE trains, which at the last two events (IRT 7 and IRT GCS), I missed because of hearing the news late :(
I took a lot of photos on 52nd street. They're still visible on [code]http://jamesl.2ya.com
The only correction on another pic is where you say:
"When the Third Avenue El existed in Manhattan, the current N train would've used the connection (red abandoned structure in the foreground) to the Queensborough Bridge and connect with the Third Avenue El in Manhattan."
The Second Avenue El was the one that went over the Queensborough Bridge.
I'll make that correction on the subsequent release. I knew I made several mistakes in my captions.
While Astor Place does have a reproduction kiosk, it is an island and this is part of the sidewalk.
Although, for this picture, it is very hard to find a specific location because we are given so few clues.
Also, further down the line, I know of the timer at Elmhurst avenue but the trains decelerate as they pass through 67th avenue. I don’t feel the train actually braking but rather slowing (as it would if it were climbing a hill). Is there a speed restriction here as well?
Thanks...Rich
I don't believe there is any "default" line-up. I guess the signals, or a tower, decide which train is closer to 36 Street, and then switch the tracks accordingly. For the record, going Queens-bound my (F) trains seem to get held quite a bit, while the (E) zooms through.
Going Manhattan-bound, the track for the (E) stays straight, while the (F) track diverges to the right. So (E) trains get to maintain their speed through 36 Street, but (F) trains must slow down to go through the track change.
Going Queens-bound it's the opposite. The tracks coming up from the 63rd Street Tunnel connect straight to the Queens Boulevard express track, but the track coming from the 53rd Street Tunnel is on a small curve, but the (E) trains don't usually slow down for it.
Another thing that I like is the new photo redux, "where the heck is this?" thing.
Thank you very much for hosting this wonderful site. It has allowed me the opportunity to meet great people. You rock!
The "world" stuff can afford to be de-emphasized this year. Besides there is a whole new "vhost" world.nycsubway.org to host it all. It's not exactly hidden.
You can outsource to India for a 1/3 of the costs. Want me to give you the number of a good referral service?
:p
The illustration in the misc. signals section is a "pot" signal
used with hand-thrown switches. I recall seeing a hand-thrown
derail in 207 St yard.
which is more valuable?
if he would use the locker.... not dwell so much on the distance...
it would prevent him unpleasantries like this.... which g*d forbid ever end up
costing a sophomore their life (or severe injury) from jive-talking geese
like that ahole on the Q.
got it,gomez?
CG
Also, consider getting a xerox. I recommend one of those fax/printer/copier/scanner-in-one dealies.
Most of the kids I see on the bus don't even bring anything to school...makes me wonder why they even bother going...it's nice to see someone actually interested in their studies and carrying books back and forth to school.
They don't want to go, they only go because the state makes them.
But it's (considered?) transit etiquette to kindly REMOVE your backpack from your person
and to carry it by hand at floor-level... this way you avoid
side-swiping other geese (and causing unpleasantries)...
On Buses there are signs:
You may carry bags, baggage, parcels, or FOLDED toddler carriages onto the vehicle
if they don't block aisles, doorways, or inconvenience others.
Regardless, I'm sorry you had that unpleasant trip.
Not saying that this fellows actions were appropriate, but many of us have grown weary of the clueless insensitivity of backpack wearers on the subways. He might have taken out his frustrations on your pack (better that than on you....).
If Miss Manners were to write about the subject, she'd probably say that common courtesy is to take your pack off and carry it onto the train -- but I believe she's probably dead by now, so she probably won't be issuing many updates.
CG
You *always* take the back pack off, and set it on the floor in front of you or between your legs.
People are FAT from the waist up. Down at leg level there is plenty of room. Try to move to a place where you will not trip somebody up with it.
Out here in North Dakota, I tell people that the height of courtesy in New York is to stay out of other people's way. Out here they will hold a door for you while standing in your way.
Elias
That 2-inch binder? Get rid of it.
Got 4 folders? Get rid of all but 1.
Space saving is the key.
I have also felt it should be LAW to remove back packs and hold them down on transit. I have carried backpacks for years and always slip it off as soon as I arrive on the platform.
How is BART different from the New York City subway system?
Arthur
Chuck Greene
I am from the San Francisco Bay Area. I was born in Freemont, CA
just a few blocks from the Fremont BART Station. Freemont is a
suburb of Oakland and SF with one BART station and will have two
more new stations by the year 2008.
Yes BART is like a commuter train in a sense with the stations being
a mile or two spaced apart in suburban communities, but don't operate
diesel locomotives which either push or pull several passenger cars.
Arthur
Arthur
Well, yes and no. bart and WMATA car bodies are made of aluminum, PATCO stainless steel. Automatic Train Control (ATC) Automatic Train Protection (ATP) are common to all three, however the way ATC and ATP are implemented are very different.
From a service stand point bart is neither an urban rapid rail transit system nor a commuter railroad, its kind of both, WMATA is more of an urban rapid rail transit system, but not totally urban rapid rail transit.
We need some one here to do a write up on bart to add to the photo collection that’s on David’s San Francisco pages.
John
?? There's extensive write up about BART already on the site. Could there be more? Sure, but you imply there's nothing but a photo collection.
David,
Well, I’ll be dammed, I must have missed the first time. Thank you for making a liar out of me.
I do here by volunteer to do the write up on the Baltimore Metro and lite rail as Wayne Whitehorne and Mark Greenwald have covered WMATA.
John
It's cleaner.
All their cars have the same basic look.
It is computer-operated.
It has a fare system based on mileage, not one flat fare.
It runs up to 80 M.P.H.
Lots more.
BART runs less frequently than NY Subway, because BART serves
suburban areas were the population density is low, homes and jobs are
spread out thinly, not bunched up in multistory buildings in a high-
density urban area like NY.
If BART had lots more closely spaced stations, they would not be able to attain the speeds...or cover the distance they do. And this in itself would not be attractive to ridership, considering much of their territory is very spread out. (I think there's one gap between stations....out on the Dublin line....I checked it when driving on I-580 a few years ago....ten miles from one station to the next)
Will be happy to answer queries.
(BTW is FrEmont, and some of us hope the extension never gets built)
Weekday midday freq is 15 minutes.
I think my fantasy line would extend from downtown underneath Geary to serve that corridor, then veering north under the Golden Gate somehow, but I'm not sure of the exact corridor, though.
Mark
As to the engineering, the GG Bridge might be strong enough, OR the Richmond leg of BART coul be run over a different bridge to Sab Rafael. That route has been gaining commuters as Marinites hire more and more indocumentados to tend their gardens, build their decks, etc.
Mark
Is it because they are confined to their 'track layout" like a train or streetcar?
David since you offered, I'm curious as to-
A) There seems to be a lot of opposition to the Warm Springs extension, how come?
B) How's ridership on the SFO Airport extension?
C) Is BART still having financial problems? I read a year or two ago that some drastic cuts in service were planned. Has there been a recent fare hike?
as to SFO extension ridership much lower than even the "spun" numbers from BART
Why I don't want BART to extend south. BART is way more expensive historically than other rail systems. We already have FRA (real railroafd) commute service south to San Jose. Expanding that service will be much cheaper than building BART to SJ. Because BART has more juice with the MTC which channels funding BART is favored even when the plan is lame IMHO.
David I recall reading at the time that some people would've preferred a new 'Airport' CalTrain station with a people mover connection to the Airport. In fact, I had read that there WAS a CalTrain connection in place, just not a very good one. (Though the EXAMINER had an article about it and several business people interviewed said they used it and liked it just fine.)
Fare increases have been incremental-- 5-10% at a time. Few or no service cuts yet.
Before BART extended, there was a free shuttle van from SP Millbrae to the airport. Took 5-7 minutes to the airport and rather more returning to the SP.
New York Code of Rules and Regulations, Section 1050.7(e): No person on or in any facility or conveyance shall:
Create any sound through the use of any sound production device, except as specifically authorized by 1050.6(c) of these rules. Use of radios and other devices listened to solely by head-phones or earphones and inaudible to others is permitted.
Notice the last line: "AND INAUDIBLE TO OTHERS."
David
Oldest I.R.T. Redbird Still Around 7770-71, Canarsie Yard TRACK-3 School Instruction Cars.
Till Next Time 'Railfans'
MORE CARS AND NUMBERS TO COME!!!!!!
5655?
I would say also R-10 #3189, but that solid blue painted R.C.I. Yard Office-School Car will just probably remain as it is in Pitkin Yard as used by MTA NYC Transit. And sorry, R-7A #1575 is not the real thing for me in more ways than one!
-William A. Padron
["Wash. Hts.-207th St."]
1. Drive to Mineola->Adirondack Trailways to New Rochelle->MN to Stamford
Total time: A lil over 2hrs
Cost: $278.00 per month
2. LIRR to NYP->subway to GCT->MN to Stamford
Total time: About 2hrs 15 min
Cost: $419.00 per month
The third was found to be far too expensive, even more than #2. The was LIRR to NYP->Amtrak to Stamford. One way on Amtrak was $33.00, and was about 45 min long. Include the wait time, probably about 2hrs 15 min.
The fourth was replacing the New Rochelle to Stamford segment of plan 1 with Amtrak, which too, was found to be too costly.
Any other suggestions, aside from driving the entire way?
CG
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The other option is moving. How strong is your attachment to Port Washington, and would you rather take that trip on the weekend or every day? That commute would be a killer.
They'd be farther away in Tampa.
(I guess as long as I'm close to NYC, it doesn't matter too much. idk though, i doubt my mom would move to CT)
Well, there is always the Westchester towns on the New Haven Line. I guess if you are in high school (Im not sure of your age) the Bronx is out.
I wouldn't over-sell Westchester. When I was 10 my family moved from my hometown, Yonkers to one of those towns on the New Haven Line, Rye. I was so miserable in snooty Rye that:
1) I was happy to move to Tulsa Oklahoma (my Dad was unemployed in the 1970s recession) after MY sophomore year of high school, and
2) I vowed not to raise my own children in such an environment. Thus, we are in Brooklyn, even if I have ended up paying for Catholic School thanks to the state's policy of driving parents out of NYC with a school aid ripoff. See "Subdivisions" by the band "Rush" for a summary of the reasons.
Then again, if you are already in Port Washington, one of those towns might be tolerable or, if not, a place like, say, New Rochelle might be.
I stand by your decesion not to raise your kids in such an environment. Everyone is narrow-minded, doesn't know shit about life off the island, or outside NYC, and everyone is daddy's lil girl
Perhaps, though my children are definately daddy's 'lil girl. I wonder how much they know about life outside Brooklyn? One time one of them said to me, "I heard there is a place that teenagers go called a mall." Perhaps the less they know, the better off I am.
No comment
If she must commute by public transit then LIRR to GCT is the only realistic choice. She may find it more convenient (1 less transfer) to take the train to Woodside and catch the 7-express from there to GCT.
She can save a few $$ on the monthly tickets if she buys web tickets rather than at the station.
What type of work is your mother in?
CG
If she's a strict nine-to-fiver, there may be others making similar trips to Long Island and she might be able to car pool. She should ask the new job about whether people do this. Much of the business in Greenwich and Stamford has recently migrated up from NYC and they still have plenty of Long Island and NJ commuters.
CG
It's not the worst of rush hour drives.
I'm not familiar with the LI part, but I am familiar with the Bronx and Westchester part.
Best is to take the Hutchinson between the southeast Bronx and the Hutch/NE Thwy interchange. Especially in the PM, the NE Thwy gets badly backed up by Cross-Bronx overflwo traffic. But even in the AM the Hutch is more reliable.
The part from the City Line to Stamford is not so bad now that they have finished NE Thwy reconstruction (which only took about 15 years). The traffic is not particularly heavy in the rush hour.
Depending on where in Stamford NIMBYkiller's mom will be working (most but by no means all jobs are downtown near I-95), she might be better off taking the Hutch all the way to the Merritt Parkway in Connecticut. The Hutch/Merritt can be slow during rush hour, but usually not quite as bad as I-95.
Northbound in the AM and southbound in the PM the Hutch is usually (not always) far worse than the E Thwy between I-287 and where they intersect in the NE Bronx. The Hutch carries extremely heavy Bronx-White Plains traffic.
In the other direction (which is irrelevant in this case), your point is correct.
The biggest nuisance of cheap tolls like that one isn't the cost, but the time lost in paying them. With the "high speed" (20 mph -- high speed for Metro NY, not for elsewhere in the country) EZ Pass lanes, there really isn't very much of a backup at all at the New Rochelle toll plaza anymore.
CG
An extra 10-15 minutes travel time on Boston Post Road (U.S. 1) because of traffic lights but something to consider.
Unless you value your time at less than $4-$6 per hour, driving 10 or 15 minutes out of the way to save a buck doesn't make much sense.
CG
While the Hutch is slightly better than I-95 through the Bronx, the difference is offset for someone coming from Nassau in that traffic getting to the Whitestone is much worse than that going to the Throgs Neck.
CG
No. It goes to Port Jefferson (2 presidents and quite a few miles off from Port Washington).
I was completely not paying attention to that! Yes, I transposed my Presidents!
Thank you. So how far do I have to swim, now that I dived into the water, looking for the ferry? :0)
CG
Tat was close..:0)
Conside leaving your car at the PJ side of the ferry and take the boat and use the Metro-North train from there.
I'm a roadgeek too, and know quite a few shortcuts around Long Island and Queens, so if you want to e-mail me and tell me approximately (no need to give me your exact address or anything) where in PW you're starting from and approximately where in Stamford the job is, I could try to come up with a driving route for ya.
Don't use the e-mail address in the header, it goes over quota twice daily with spam....use tantillo **AT** virginia **DOT** edu
If your mother is anything like me, she would be tired at the end of the day after a 4+ hour commute to/from work.
Back in 1994, I had to commute to Hawthorne, NY from Queens, NY for a temporary job. The commute involved going from 169th St Jamaica to Grand Central by Subway then taking MNRR to White Plains (on a local train that made ALL stops) then waiting (one half-hour) most of the time) at WP for a Bee-Line bus that would take me close to my work site. The bus ride was one-half hour and after I got off the bus, it was a 5-minute walk to my job site. Total commute time (including waiting time): almost THREE hours one way. Boy, was I worn out by the time I got home from work in the evenings. Fortunately I didn't have to do that for more than 5.5 months.
Koi
Chuck Greene
http://www.observer.com/pages/conason.asp
But we'd best not get into it HERE ...
-----
Russert: You were allowed to leave eight months before your term expired. Was there a reason?
Bush: Right. Well, I was going to Harvard Business School and worked it out with the military.
I guess the thousands who went and died in Vietnam wish they could have 'worked it out'.
Bill Clinton REALLY worked it out. He fought the Vietnam War from Oxford, England (on Jane Fonda's side, not Kerry's).
And I saw Kerry when I was in DC during the VVAW rally. A big event there was Vietnam vets throwing their medals away. Now Terry McAuliffe says that Kerry has "a chestful of medals." I guess he retrieved his when nobody was looking.
The hypocrisy is so thick, you can cut it with a knife.
But you're right, they're *all* full of it. :(
I'd rather go for the choochoos myself, already did the "work for politicos of BOTH parties" silliness ... and I've had it up to HERE with politicos who insist on opening up their pants to show us their "moral compass." ... to whit ...
It is time to elect the world leader, and your vote counts. Here's the facts about the three leading candidates.
--Candidate A Associates with crooked politicians, and consults with astrologists. He's had two mistresses. He also chain smokes and drinks 8 to 10 martinis a day.
--Candidate B He was kicked out of office twice, sleeps until noon,
used opium in college and drinks a quart of whiskey every evening.
--Candidate C He is a decorated war hero. He's a vegetarian, doesn't smoke, drinks an occasional beer and hasn't had any extra-marital affairs.
Which of these candidates would be your choice??
Candidate A is Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)
Candidate B is Winston Churchill
Candidate C is Adolph Hitler
Ladies and germs of da jury, I rest my case ... whoa! Train's coming! :)
Being kicked out of office means that people high up don't like your ideas, and people high up have the WORST ideas. I sleep until noon when given the chance and resent morning people, and nothing clears the mind like a quart of whiskey. As for the opium? No one's perfect.
As W.C.Fields said, "Never trust a man who doesn't drink" ... or "Some weasel took the cork out of my lunch" ... When I was growing up in the Bronx, my friends advised me to stay away from opiates, "you'll LIKE it too much" I was told. Followed their advice. Still breathing. :)
Can't be right. Winston Churchill never went to college.
Interesting fact about all post-WWII British Prime Ministers. Either they went to Oxford, or they went to no university at all. Churchill was one of the latter group.
So that raises an interesting (though totally off-topic) point - was it at Harrow or at Sandhurst that Churchill tried opium? I doubt if either institution would be very pleased to have that on the public record....
To get back on-topic, Harrow is of course a passable railfanning place, being served (at various different stations) by the Metropolitan, Piccadilly and Bakerloo lines of the Undergound and by commuter trains on Silverlink and Chiltern Trains.
In the 1945 general election, the Labour party defeated the Conservatives, so Winston Churchill was voted out of office, which was a surprise to many including himself. I remember the election slogan "Let him finish the job", the job being World War II. Clement Attlee took over as Prime Minister and his new Labour government introduced the welfare state. In 1951 the Conservatives regained power and Churchill became Prime Minister again until 1955, when he resigned at age 81 "due to failing health" and Anthony Eden took over.
Whoops ... I'd received that a while ago from a customer and didn't bother to check the details ... ah well, it was on the internet - MUST be true. :)
No need to apologise; the original quote didn't say what office. And Churchill was famously kicked out of the office of First Lord of the Admiralty (read 'secretary of the Navy') over the failure of the Dardenelles campaign during the first world war.
Compare to our "candidate C" now in office. :(
Perhaps if he had, I'd still have a job and 3000 Americans might still be alive.
If the previous administration had paid attention to its own intelligence and taken Osama when he was HANDED to them on a silver platter in 1995 by Sudan, perhaps there wouldn't have been any need to hand over intelligence to the new administration.
Source: Washington Post, not Drudge.
The airlines appear to have the best teflon coating of all the parties whose negligence contributed to the tragedy. They got a federal bailout and immunity from future lawsuits.
I respect yout GREATLY (and I'm ALSO very much into the "history" since I'm PART of it from the old "(ta)" as a former psychopath responsible for not killing at least 1,000 people on trains) but one of the things I've always recoiled at is defense of petty political chits who forget that they serve *US* and NOT the other way around.
Clinton was a crook. Shrub is a BIGGER crook ... Bubba only screwed an INTERN, Shrub's screwing *US* ... Johnson was a crook, Ford was a crook, Nixon was a crook, REAGAN was a crook, same for JFK, same for Roosevelt. Let's be real here, they're ALL crooks. It's only a question as to WHOSE face they're sticking the gun into. What upsets me the most is this "ministry of truth" nonsense whilst the Constitution (which many died for in battle) is being rapidly eroded by so much of a modern day Gestapo. If GOVERNMENT had done its job, and was interested in PERFORMING its job, there'd be no need for the "Patriot Act" and its rescinding of our democracy. Government agencies and spooks ALREADY HAD the power to "protect us from diaperheads." :(
ALL of the restrictions on intelligence gatherings and "espionage actions against enemy states" were STILL on the books. They were rescinded by "Executive orders" and could be just as easily RESTORED by "Executive order" ... this path was not chosen, thus the "Stillwell quality smell" ...
Just want to explain that "Unca Selkirk" is an old Barry Goldwater conservative - I'll have NONE of this "pseudo-Nazi" nonsense. Conservatism is all ABOUT conserving person freedoms, PRESERVING the Constitution ("Patriot Act" would have him emptying a CHAIN GUN in the Senate) and the right to the people to prosper without bullying the little kids in the schoolyard. I will not support EITHER extreme of the political scale, I'm a "radical fundamentalist middle of the roader" politically, I firmly believe they're ALL "Fuller Schlitz." And the actions of THIS administration are extremely frightening as there is no Constitutional or case law basis for ANY of these actions.
So please bear with me if I recoil and laugh at the "spinmeisters" shaking their "bubba dolls" in our faces - it's been Shrub's watch long enough. And there's more than AMPLE evidence that "Bubba" missed killing Osama by FIFTEEN MINUTES owing to "administrative lag" in the military. Instead, a bunch of empty tents got blown up by the "we apologize for the inconvenience" ... reality though is that Shrub got handed the coordinates, and since it came from the "Monica House" they were ignored. Order never given, too busy LYING that the "W keys had been removed from the computers." Usama moved on.
But like I said, INAPPROPRIATE for here, so I won't respond, but the TRUTH is out there, if you can avoid the "spin" ... snopes.com has had to do lots of work lately. :)
And of course, if you need a laugh, there's always "dubyaspeak" to light up your morning. Heh.
http://www.dubyaspeak.com/
But believe me, if it were APPROPRIATE here, and I had the time to do the googling, I can guarantee you there's plenty of reality that ain't on AM radio. Or FM. :)
You remember that aspirin factory Bubba blew up in Sudan? Because of that, the entire Arab world has had a headache and they blame the US for it, therefore all the terrorism. We could have solved it very easily, but the shipment of aspirin as American aid was held up because the wicked drug companies were demanding $100 PER PILL (Fedex to the Middle East is very expensive) to deliver them. Bubba wouldn't spend the surplus on those $100 pills; Dubya agrred to, on September 10, 2001, but by then...
And now you know the REST of the story.
So what you're saying then is that the B/D switch and the D no longer stopping at DeKalb has NOTHING to do with all these weapons of mass distraction?
SHOW ME THE DAMN PICTURE! Heh.
LOL
So Gore did report for service (Vounteered), Bush went AWOL for about a year, Paystubs don't mean jack when no one can recall you being around.
They wish they could have received a college deferrment, like Bill Clinton. I know Bush used Daddy's power to avoid actually military service, but at least he performed SOME service in an American uniform, instead of spitting on those who did.
Put 1 railfan, five "regular folks" and a blind man who doesn't know any of them in a room and see if the blind man picks out the railfan on the first try.
oops
I can't take credit for the post quotas being lowered, but if they cause you to post less ignorant, accusatory shit, then I'd be glad to take credit for it.
I get flack from people because I'm not going to sit idly by while people falsely accuse me.
If this guy really was stopped by security than I think that's truly outrageous. He's obviously a railfan so why harass him? Cause he has kinda an Arab look? That's disgusting and somebody should be called on the carpet for this one!
When the BMT had lots of Standards in the yards, Osama was just a gleam in his daddy's eye.
Bill "Newkirk"
Can't be. They'd be too underpowered for the grades. Maybe some Steinway Low Vs?
Like what? It seems to me that this is a police matter. NYC Transit has no police department.
Contact NYPD, whose job it is to patrol the subway system.
David
Other notes:
PA-4 807 has a single piece railfan window
PA-2 717 has the large round smooth style route marker lights (that was for the airplane fans)
PA-1 666 is the devil. It has quad style route marker lights.
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
Photos:
Questions:
1. On the End Destination Sign Select for the LED End Destination Sign, one of the options was covered over with EXPL. What was covered over?
2. Has anyone ever seen the LED End Destination Sign set to "EXPRESS"?
Thanks.
OFF TOPIC discussion board for RAILFANS
RailfanWindow.com Gallery of Photos
So the current tally of PA-4 cars with LED End Destination Signs is FOUR. They are: 857, 869, 876, and 883.
It is a fast station. You enter it around a blind rigth hand turn. The woman was hit only about two cars length into the station, this I got from when I enter the station around 4:45 that day after it happen. There was sand still on the road bed from were they were cleaning up the blood. The T/O could do nothing to have stoped the train in time base on this information. She also most likey did not see the train comming around the bend and never new about it.
Robert
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Belie' dat, playa!
And now she is just not conscious.
Elias
#3 West End Jeff
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
If (and I believe it is very possible) the family sues the MTA for not putting up a warning sign, then we should consider them for a Darwin varient.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Yes, I do admit that it was a stupid act on the person. But in the end we still have a dead 18year old. Not somthing I find to joke about.
"She was very smart. She wouldn't risk her life for a cell phone. I'm sure there's more to the story. I think the only person who knows is God."
The article continued to state that "she and the family are asking for any other witnesses who may have a different account of how Villegas wound up on the tracks to come forward and tell their story".
Translation: if the story stands, we get shit. Anyone wanna be a witness so we can sue and get something outa this mess?
They're just coping with a sad tragedy. If it truly was only her fault, I don't think anything is gonna happen.
As a retired cop/sergeant who responded to many tragic scenes I can tell you it's a natural psychological defense mechanism to make light of and even joke about something tragic to allay our fears that it can happen to any one of us. Unfortunately some people on this forum forget that it is a public forum and think of it like a closed chat room.
Now, did it ever occur to you that this girl's family and friends might be viewing this forum? After a tragedy like this they might want to know everything about it, put "subway accident's" into a search engine and come up with Dave's site.
I can also state the height of a platform is deceiving when you're looking down from the platform at the track. I think the average person including this girl thinks it is easy to climb back up onto the platform.
Indeed. I had trouble believing the 5' statement myself, till I took a look at a railroad platform in Westchester where stairs go up from track level to the end of the elevated platform. Sure enough, the bottom of the stairs are about 1 stair higher than the trackbed, and there are 7 stairs up to the platform, for a total of 8 stairs or about 5'.
How many group posters does it take to change a light bulb?
1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed
14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently
7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs
27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs
53 to flame the spell checkers
41 to correct spelling/grammar flames
6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" ...
another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive
2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp"
15 know-it-alls who claim *they* were in the industry, and that "light bulb" is perfectly correct
156 to email the participant's ISPs complaining that they are in violation of their "acceptable use policy"
109 to post that this group is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a lightbulb group
203 to demand that cross posting to hardware forum, off-topic forum, and lightbulb group about changing light bulbs be stopped
111 to defend the posting to this group saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts *are* relevant to this group
306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty
27 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs
14 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's
3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group
33 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too"
12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy
19 to quote the "Me too's" to say "Me three"
4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ
44 to ask what is a "FAQ"
4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"
143 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs"
1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again....
That says it all, folks. The transit-free, car-only, nothing-within-walking-distance experiment has failed.
Mark
Why would anyone operate a train (especially one in revenue service) at night without headlights? Was this a FRA violation? I would have thought that Metro North would have stopped the train at the next station, discharged the passengers, and laid the train up until they could get an engine to pull it to the yard.
I guess it's different out amongst the SUV Darwinists - after all, no Mars lighting comin' at ya, those gates and flashing lights must be lying. Harumph. :(
No.
I was in a doctor's office, and there was a book there about steam locomotives. British Steam Locomotives.
Not one of them had a head lamp. Not even a little oil lamp.
Sure mad the front of the engine look funny.
Elias
Bill "Newkirk"
Many of the old arnines didn't have headlights, and it was always a pleasure when I managed to get one (they'd tend to put the ones that hadn't had headlights hung in the middle of the train but every now and then one would end up on the point). I agree fully though - it was a pleasure the few times I got a dark lead car. :)
Some of my best R-1/9 memories were riding on a train with no headlights. I-beams were reduced to silhouettes with only the tunnel lights providing illumination. IIRC every prewar A train I ever rode on (five at the most) had no headlights, nor did the last few R-1/9 D trains I got, including the last one I ever rode on - up CPW in December of 1969.
Since most of the oldtimers on the D were R-4s when you worked there, the chances of getting a lead motor with no headlights were favorable.
Like I said though, what I did was put-in, take it for a round trip, lay it up, go hide for 6 hours and do it again ... WAA to fill yer time card for the day, S/S RDO on split shifts, hurrah. Still, it was rare when I got no lights on the bottom.
The MAIN issue to us motormen though was whether or not the lead car had MOTORS ... didn't much matter about the rest of the train - "trailers in tow" wasn't such a big deal unless we had more than two. If the LEAD CAR had dead motors, then it was a PIG ... you needed to HEAR your motors to have a speedometer of any value - and while if the second car had motors, if you STRAINED to listen, you could hear it back there, you didn't want to run a train if your LEAD car had dead motors - then it became shaky, especially when dealing with timers.
The proper "RRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrr" required HEARING the pitch. As I've said many time, to me it wasn't "hitting a particular note" per se, it was knowing the proper PITCH that coincided with the proper speed. And most "proper speed" pitches were WAY "off-key" to the musician in me. I just knew what "sounded right" when running trains through "Agggh ... next stop is the whackyballs betwen 7th and Prospect." DEFINITELY wasn't a musical note (not even the excuse of pentatonic) that got you past the balls without a full serv. :)
But yeah, doing it in the dark was MUCH better than the current "glowielampenwerken." Heh.
Those gear pitches were very musical. No sour notes there.:)
But yeah, the right pitches, as best as I remember (and Branford retuned my ears), are NOT musical if you want the timers to clear to green as God intended. Only crackerjacks chased reds, and eventually they got caught (sooner rather than later) ... if you want to KEEP your job, you just deal with the noise from outside the cab, "wow - this motorman's a PUTHY" ... yeah, but I got you there ALIVE, AND I didn't screw up the railroad recharging again and again. :)
I still miss those old heffers ... if you KNEW what you were doing, they'd kick ARSE on anything rolling today ... IF ...
appearently they notified the RTC or the train would not have been cancelled at Stamford (next forward repair terminal)
just remember other than at crossings anybody at or near rail is a tresspaser so what is the danger ???
stopping it at next station only takes a track out of service untill the darn thing is moved right ?
2. What if there were an object on the tracks, not a person.
Yes But... The light can be *seen* from much further away than it's beam can produce a useful return to the engineer.
On the wayside, I can see the beam a mile away, even though I am not iluminated by it. It gives me a clue: "Psst... a 112 car coal train is coming at you at 55 mph. Do you think you might want to step aside?"
It is the same reason why we put daytime running lights on cars (or motorcycles), not so that the driver can see any better, but so that your vehicle may be seen better by others.
Anyway... I think that it is awsome to see those locomotives barrel by with their three headlamps on.
Elias
The conductor with his remote control might be 20 to 50 or more cars back, and he is looking at his work space, and pays no attention whatsoever to what might be in front of the locomotive. You want to trespass in Bismarck, they will make butter out of you.
Elias
Decalled a bunch of "rest room person shapes" plus dogs and cats under the side window, arranged like "kill stickers" on a fighter jet. Natch, folks asked "what are those for?" and he sat there with a grin saying "we get bonus points for bipeds" ... natch, someone called us in. It *did* make the point for some though.
BTW: If you decide to use Sprint, the photos than can be downloaded are saved as .zip extension files.
With that many baloons, I think that guy has about 3 or 4 sweethearts.
You can get better views from the recently completed staircase leading up to the Flushing-bound platform.
I have no idea since I didn't even hear about the old bus terminal until I read about renovation.
MTA understands that its passengers want a nicely designed transfer to buses at 74/Broadway, and they are providing it. That's appropriate and will even encourage more people to use it. A well-conceived project.
So how will late night #2 local trains run now?
I don't know, but however they ran, they did it earlier in the week.
Were there any other advisories, like no (1) between 34th and South Ferry? Then a possible solution to this puzzle would be that 34th served as the terminal for the (1), and the (2) ran express 34-Chambers.
What I'd say is more likely (however that photo is missing the bottom of that sign), is that the sign should be posted at Chambers St. That GO is fairly common, the (1) terminates on the southbound express train and goes north from there.
I don't know, but however they ran, they did it earlier in the week.
Were there any other advisories, like no (1) between 34th and South Ferry? Then a possible solution to this puzzle would be that 34th served as the terminal for the (1), and the (2) ran express 34-Chambers.
What I'd say is more likely (however that photo is missing the bottom of that sign), is that the sign should be posted at Chambers St. That GO is fairly common, the (1) terminates on the southbound express train and goes north from there.
The train zipped through the Atlantic Avenue tunnel without incident. When it emerged, I suddenly noticed that the train was traveling far too fast to stop at East New York. (For those who don't know, ENY station is located just outside the end of the Atlantic Avenue tunnel.)
The engineer apparently realized the same thing, and slammed on the M-1's brakes. However, he was going too fast and all of the cars except the last one overshot the station. The conductor then announced on the PA that all passengers getting off at East NY had to walk to the back of the train to exit. No explanations as to what happened, only a mumbled "sorry for the inconvenience." There were a number of angry people walking back, I can tell you that.
What is the punishment for something like this?
Besides, isn't the train crew required to report this anyway?
CG
That actually happened?
From your original post:
"There were a number of angry people walking back, I can tell you that."
I guess people use it!
LOL
What percent is that?
0.
0 is a percent.
Two????? I don't think so. You have obviously never used ENY. There is even a ticket agent on duty there in the morning. Do you really think the "cheap" LIRR would keep a ticket agent there if only "two" people used it? They look for any excuse to close an agency down.
How would you like it if somebody "suggested" closing Hewlett, Woodmere or Cedarhurst or whatever "high class" station you use? Just because there are no Starbucks Coffee houses, The Gap stores, or Kosher Delicatessens located there doesn't mean that it's not used by many people!
I don't drink coffee, don't wear trendy clothes, and I'm a goy.
Well said... I agree with you, but some folks live to see resources taken away from the "undesirable" areas.
See? That was easy.
The East New York subway yard and a large bus depot are nearby. Also, the surrounding area seems to be getting a little more developed.
I (used to) go to their Youth Council program on Tuesdays. I started going in the summer of 2001. I remember having to walk from Chauncey to Gates, since they were rehabbing the Broadway El stations and Chauncey & Gates would be closed simotaneously. Funny thing, when they closed Halsey/Kosciuszko Queens-bound and reopened Chauncey/Gates, I was coming from Myrtle on a J that ran express to Chauncey! (Oops.) But I've stopped attending the meetings; they don't seem to be doing much, and the little they do doesn't really interest me. The kids also seem to have increasing difficulty with civil discussion.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Nostrand is used mainly for reverse commuting.
I guess you haven't walked around and seen that East New York is being developed. Some of you guys here are real dicks and prejudge too often about certain neighborhoods, and/or people [and their character]. As soon as you mention a "urban" area, oh its bad but, of course there is crime in the city and there are seedy areas but it is NOT limited to high density areas. Y'all should come up with more productive posts instead of trash.
I agree with you about the perception problem. I used the station regularly, Sunday morning and afternoon, May 1986 through October 1988, to get from Ridgewood, Queens, to Baldwin, Nassau.
On sunny Sunday afternoons in 1987 in 1988 I liked to walk to my home in Ridgewood from the ENY LIRR station through Evergreen Cemetery as a "scenic safecut", entering at the Bushwick Avenue gate at Conway Street, across the street from the ENY Subway Yards radio transmitter tower, past the gazebo, and out through the Cooper Avenue gate at Wyckoff Avenue and the LIRR overpass.
That all comes back to me whenever I ride the L past there. As you know, it says :
CITY OF NEW YORK
LONG ISLAND RAILROAD
1914
above the portals. In the instant before the L train enters the tunnel before pulling into Bushwick-Aberdeen, I have a choice of looking down at that LIRR portal, or straight down Evergreen Avenue to the northwest.
My dad used to live on the 3rd floor at Evergreen and Moffat, three blocks away, and at night, liked to watch the newly running (1928-30)
Canarsie-bound Canarsie line trains enter the tunnel just north of Bushwick-Aberdeen. He would count the cars in the train, by counting the dark spaces between groups of lighted windows, which were larger (longer) than the dark spaces between the windows themselves.
I don't think my dad and his pals ever hiked on the LIRR tracks near the south end of the ENY tunnel, just south of Atlantic and Van Sinderen Avenues.
One site with the only definition of "hinky" that I found on the web:
http://www.beavton.k12.or.us/jacob_wismer/leahy/2001/hinkypinky/hinkypinky.htm
The picture of the station at http://lirr42.mta.info/stationinfo.asp?station=014 must have been taken at the precise minute each day that sunlight actually makes its way into that station.
CG
I was working a late night westbound Raritan Valley Line train when the engineer (off the extra list) blew Garwood. 3 passengers wanted to get off there. After we made Westfield, the engineer called the dispatcher over the telephone (not on the radio so all could hear), and received permission to back up to Garwood. Of course, the conductor had to be on the hind end to put the headlight on, call out signals, and spot the engineer for the station stop. There was no "punishment" from that incident.
No cars on the platform, OK back it up a little.
Elias
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?27543
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?27542
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?27544
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?27545
I am certian that Borough Hall is an underground station. How did so much snow get down there?
Robert
Yeah, it can go OUTSIDE. It doesn't have to go inside unless there is a way for it to do so. A some stations there is such a way.
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I remember that during the '96 blizzard, there was snow in even deeper, IND stations.
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can anyone come up with any?
Most of the 1904 IRT stations are close enough to the street to get service. Also, Hunters Point Ave on the 7.
Hoyt.............on the A/C/G (I was interrupted by 2 cops who didnt believe I was on the phone, so I handed one cop my phone and said "...you want to speak to my boyfriend??)
Essex/Delancey...On the J
6th Av (Bet W4 and 34 St on the Express Tracks (I dont know how tho)
Chambers St......J/M/Z
Carroll St.......F/G
71 Contenental...E/F/G/R/V
There were a few others but I cant think of any now. Besides that, I'm on AT&T Now. So I can experiment with this one now underground.
This Is What I Live For...
Then I thought, LRT's are huge, that would be the only thing to handle the load on weekdays and weekend nights. And I'm talking LRT's not trolleys.
But can a LRT make all the insanely frequent stops that a bus does, or are they just viable for spread out stations?
It'd be a perfect location too, mountains, clean air, short demanding route. And PSU has it's own generators, and the prison down the road doesn't use the chair anymore, so there's extra power to go around.
Now the awesome school, UCF, I don't see this happening, it's much to complicated at present time with construction.
Wow, boy did you luck out! Having a decommissioned chair nearby is key for winning support for LRT! :)
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But that prison is the most classic building I've ever seen. Only been by it once in the handfull of times I was in a car around there. It's on the top of it's own hill and it's got these huge Greek-style columns.
It's my goal to get some pictures of that, it's one of those things you always remember the image of.
The electric chair was decommissioned in 1990 and is now in the custody of the Pennsylvania Historical Museum Society.
Getting back on topic, do you know of any track maps for Centre/Mifflin counties? There are a lot of freight railroads around there, and there once was passenger service to State College. Do you know when it stopped?
And wow, there's more train tracks there than i've seen anywhere. See all the 4-laned "roads" with the rock catchers. It's amazing.
I've been looking for that info a few times, i'm thinking maybe PSU's online library if not in person I guess. They do have one of the biggest around.
One day I'll see it all again.
Actually, i need old trackmaps for a lot of places, I can't place some of these random un-used tracks I keep finding.
Interestingly, I found this photo:
which looks like a train at Lemont (the station building has been converted to a cutesy arts and crafts shop, but I recognize the Lemont Post Office, which is next to the tracks). I have been on the train, which isn’t very interesting–it’s a DMU, or rather a DSU–but not to Lemont.
I love all the old rusted stuff laying on the side of the roads and everything. Always wanted to find an old mine. That place is so much like the movie "nothing but trouble".
Anyway, you'd only need the trains to run 6-8 times a year for breaks. Either connect them in harrisburg. Or electrify the line and get me some retired Silverliners in 2005+.
It sure beats sitting in those buses for 8 hours in traffic where nothing works, including the brakes and steering(which is why the company I rode on has been shut down and sued after a fatal accident).
Yeah, usually villages are in third world countries or quaint rural corners of Europe. There is a Whitemore Village, Hawaii, however, and closer to home there is the Village of Saugerties on the Hudson in Ulster County, New York.
Mark
Lemont however, is losing its separate status, being encroached on all sides by the massive development going on in the State College area.
I do have a problem with the whole State College area: I have been to lots of places and have driven there a number of times (coming in both south from Route 80 and north from Harrisburg along 322), but I haven’t ever been able to conceptualize the maps with all the hills and valleys.
The fact that they’re building roads in the area like mad doesn’t help either!
However, I think the chances of getting federal money for a free campus shuttle go from nada to zip.
Their tuition is obscene enough to handle it. My last year in college in Florida was practically free with low grants, compared to the 15grand or whatever a year they charge. And it's a college, that's what DONORS are for! Graham Spanier doesn't do anything else.
My whole thinking was, the train stops, loads, moves and stops 600 feet. I never been in a LRT so I don't get how the whole stopping process works. Do they stop smoothly in short distances?
Of course. In Brooklyn they stopped at every corner if hailed, as close as 300 feet. Actually this is the first situation for a bus, since it's always operating in its least efficient mode--acceleration in low gear.
should read
Actually this is the WORST situation for a bus.
This route sounds like a job for something like Portland's streetcars. or something similar. They're modern LRVs, but designed for use as streetcars, not light-rail rapid transit like Portland's MAX light rail vehicles. They're articulated, hold lots of standees, and are low-floor for easy ADA-compliant entry. Plus, they look like space caterpillars, which is always a plus. Click the picture to see www.nycsubway.org's Portland Streetcar page for more information.
Mark
Speaking of universities, Penn State could also follow the example of West Virginia's campus people mover.
Mark
Portland Streetcar
Mark
Morgantown, West Virginia Personal Rapid Transit (PRT)
Mark
However, I don’t think it would work too well in State College, where the center is pretty much built up, and there’s no space for grade-separated running, unless you built an elevated, which would probably be out of reach from a cost basis.
Mark
But I still need the stops to be really frequent. A few stops per block. We might be able to cut a few out actually for redundancy.
that's the campus and downtown in a nutshell
Top right corner. East Halls. Biggest dorm complex in the world(or is it second?). Point is I had Beaver Stadium outside my window. Wait, the point is there's 4 stops on that block. We could shrink them down to 2 or 3 evenly spaced though.
Two blocks left, I think there'd be 3-4 stops too for the creamery and other buildings. Etc. etc.
Downtown's got some pretty dense towers too.
The stops could be compressable, but i'm heasitant to make a big station one every block or two. East in itself needs at least 2 stops, with one doubling up with the rec hall.
This is the current stops
The left, campus loop and town loop. They must be missing a few stops, Downtown never had 3 stops only.
On the right,the green loop is something new. The other one was called the Link. That used to work when it was exclusive stops only, like a skip-stop pattern. But when they made it every-stop it failed. I assume that's why they added that green loop, just to add more buses for that segment. Those stops require a few buses to get everyone. Like 10. I figure we'll leave those two as bus routes.
There does seem to be awful lot of costly engineering (multi-platform stations with express underpass tracks) to provide express service on a system that only has five stops. Perhaps that explains why nothing similar has been built since.
Maybe because the codes are mapped slightly differently in the UK?
(And by the way, when I previewed my message using a hacek over the "c" in "Dubcek," it showed up as an e-grave as well, and I'm using a U.S. system.)
Mark
"Dubcek's Revenge" is a name popularly given to the general design of Czech-built streetcars popular in the former Soviet bloc, particularly East Germany. Quite how they relate to the historical figure Dubcek, I don't know.
Most likely:
Dubcek tried to abolish socialism and introduce a free market, but was prevented from doing so by the Russians. The result is that the rest of Eastern Europe had to put up with 2nd rate equipment made by a planned economy for another 25 years. That is Dubcek's revenge on the system he tried to reform.
What’s interesting here is the streets: few cars and lane discipline. Was this pre-reunification Leipzig?
Oh I like the exterior styling - and they ride well and you don't have a load of backwards facing seats like in these LRVs.
What’s interesting here is the streets: few cars and lane discipline. Was this pre-reunification Leipzig?
No. It's a photo off nycsubway.org dated 8/9/1996. It was still just like that when I was there in 2001. I guess no-one much needs a car in a city with such great public transportation.
Mark
Indeed. It is really a model for how medium sized cities should be built.
Good alternative. I was going to sugest a trolley system buy your idea beat mine.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
But can a LRT make all the insanely frequent stops that a bus does, or are they just viable for spread out stations? <<<<<
The LRT can make all the insanely frequent stops but why would you want to do that? The LRT is much more effective with limited stops which is the only reason for designing such a system. If you want frequent stops, stick with the slow moving bus.
Furthermore, the LRT should have it's own dedicated ROW seperate from city traffic. You've seen what happens in Houston when a large LightRail is mixed with motor traffic.
I don't know what you have against trolleys as they are just as fast as a bus when you have to make all those frequent stops. The average speed in city traffic for a trolley or bus would be less than 20 mph.
Quite frankly. Since all this talk of rail will never happen, why not buy a bicycle? ;-)
Randy's Piano Move
That's my cousin, by the way.
Mark
I find all this talk about establishing rail traffic for a university amusing. Seriously. When I attended the university, I walked to school 1.6 miles each day! I also used the bus and rode a bicycle. What happend to the good old days when we walked and rode our cycles to work and school? OH Yeah. I'm not 90 years old either!
Most of this talk about establishing a multimillion dollar rail line for 5,000 commuters is pretty academic. It won't happen but it makes for good conversation on Subtalk. If I were younger and attended this school, I'd fight the University for the following:
1. Modern day bicycle racks.
2. Bicycle lanes to and from the town center.
3. A bulk bicycle purchase program where students buy cycles at
a discount. I'm not talking cheap toy store Huffy's either.
I'm talking about good commuter bicycles with fenders, lights
and a rear rack or basket where you can put your books.
4. An agressive plan to get more students on bikes instead of buses.
The bike idea is a good one, but I'm happy with students on buses...it's still better than however many thousands of students all trying to drive to campus. But I don't think it has to be a bus vs. bike thing. I think you can promote the bus for what it does best and the bikes for what they do best. First step: put bike racks on the buses!
Mark
I just had this thought that ETB would accomplish some of those things, but they ALL would have to be artics. Then I thought about how what if we did trolleys those are nice rides, but at that poitn I went all the way to LRT. Street-running tracks have the nice advantage where it doesn't have to have a street feel, the tracks can be level with the sidewalk and so on.
Trying to do pro's and con's.
And two posts ago, what'd I have against trolleys. Nothing, I just need the capacity of an Artic, or much more.
I still have tickets from last years UCF-PSU game, which is werid since i just graduated from UCF too. I hear they're going to play again next year or 2 years from now.
Been meaning to go up there since the summer, it's been years.
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An accurate caption for the thoughts of those two guys on the platform: "What a f*cking nut..."
"What is that guy doing?!"
May I have your attention please
May I have your attention please
Will the real MTA please stand up
I repeat, will the real MTA please stand up
We're gonna have a problem here
We're acting like we've never seen a budget crunch before
All on the floor as 9/11 burst in the door
Started whoopin up fares worst than before
They first were throwing over the expired 30-day cards
It's the return of the
(Aw wait, no way your kidding the TA didn't say there would be rollback, did they?)
Nothing you idiot the MTA's bankrupt and it needs the Feds
Everyone loved tokens
Click Clack Chink
Look at them walking around grabbing old tokens
Throwing at you-know-who
Yeah they get many screws loose on their money vaults
But no worse than on a late night subway
Sometimes the riders would just go loose
But they can't, and they pay $2 to be stuffed like a goose
The fare is on your tax the fare is on your tax
And if you're lucky you might just give them a little cash
And expect them to know what the fare they pay really is
We ain't nothing be railfans, let the MTA blow us down with a fan
Who'll protest others like veterans
But if we ride every day
There's no reason the TA can block our say
But if you feel what I feel I got the timetable
Everyone start complaing sing the chorus and it goes
(chorus)
I'm MTA
Yes I'm the real MTA
All you others are just lying
So won't the real MTA
Please stand up Please stand up Please stand up
Cuz I'm the real MTA
Yes I'm the real MTA
All the others are lying
So won't the real MTA
Please stand up Please stand up Please stand up
SEPTA don't have to lie to raise their fares
But MTA does, so fuck SEPTA, and WMATA too
You think I give a damn about "public image"
When the whole TA lies and the R142S is over a year late
Why, so you guys can lie just to raise the fare
So you can sit me here on a subway car
Shit, Pete Kalikow better switch he chairs
So I can sit next to Gene Russianoff and the Straphangers
And hear them argue over who really raised the fare
Straphangers put me on their DVD
I should download files from the MTA site
To show the Feds how they went up in hike
I'm sick of all of you politcians all you so is annoy me
So I've been sent here to clean you
And there are many riders just like me
Who talk like me
Who just don't give a fuck like me
Walk talk and act like me
It just might me the next best thing
But not quite me
(chorus)
I'm like a fact sheet to listen too
Cuz I'm only giving you
Things that are true and confirmed
But I've got the power to say it
And I'm not false or joking at all
I just tell the goverment and spit it
Whenever you'd like to admit it
I just shit it
Better than the MTA leaders out there
Then you wonder how can riders think of their system
It's funny cuz when it's over
I'll be the only person in Attica
Pinching imprisoned former MTA chiefs while jacking off on weed
And I'm thinking this pack of tokens isn't working
And every single person is a liar lurkin'
He could be sitting next to you on the shuttle
Or on the SI Ferry screaming, I don't give a fuck about fares
With his cap on and pockets out
So will the real MTA please stand up
And wave a motorman's cap up
And to be proud out of your mind and out of control
And one more time, loud as you can, how does it go
(chorus)
Wait, this whole issue is old news. Perhaps you should have posted this roughly a year ago when we cared.
Well that song was old (2000), but that's the only one I could think of to use that could match the satire theme.
Last week they aquired MLW M420W #3519 from St Lawrence & Atlantic (Quebec). It was built in 1973 or 1974 as CN #2519.
This week they acquired GE U18B #1801, built in 1976 for Providence & Worcester and retired in 2002. The SRNJ is looking for another U18B to be a stablemate for 1801.
3519 has several stablemates, including identical twins 3578 and 3579 and fraternal twin Alco C420 #414.
A friend recently retired from teaching high school and is on-the-job training as conductor on the Salem branch. He told me on Monday that he's worked a lot of 12 hour days because they're so busy. Also because of slow running due to miserable track conditions.
Robert
The southern branch includes the Salem Running Track between Salem and a Conrail connection at Swedesboro, and the Salem Industrial Track, which despite the photo, actually serves a number of industries (including Anchor Glass, where Snapple bottles are manufactured).
Robert
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Therefore it'll be kinda crazy for riders at local stations to pick up the G train. The R to Roosevelt (possibly going the opposite direction from a station like Northern Blvd) followed by the E to 23rd/Ely to pick up the G.
I guess it's always crazy... but it leaves me wondering. What reason is there to cut the G at Court Square on this particular weekend?
Assuming that the southbound local track at Queens Plaza will be out for track and platform work (corrections to this theory are welcome), if I had my way I'd run the southbound G express from Forest Hills to Queens Plaza, then cross it over and run normally to Bedford-Nostrand. Northbound service would be normal. Given the service patterns of the E and F on weekends, isn't there room to fit G trains on the express one-way?
Robert
Manhattan-bound E F and R trains are local from Continental to Roosevelt Avenues. From Roosevelt, R trains run local and into the 63rd Street tunnel, while E and F trains switch to the express and run to their regular destinations.
Queens-bound E F and R trains are local from Queens Plaza/21 Street to Roosevelt Avenue. From Roosevelt, E and F trains go express and R trains go local.
This closes off the express platform at Roosevelt in both directions.
Also having seen a work loco on the SB local track at Queens Plaza it's apparent they're working there as well.
Thanks.
In this case, you would buy a token for the full fare, and get a ticket for a free return trip during that same weekend. It was implemented when America didn't lay the proper smackdown on world's most powerful terrorist organization OPEC in 1973 and ended in 1980.
OPEC yanked up the price of oil in part to keep their "real value" revenues constant after Nixon devalued the dollar.
By the way, what is Bush's deficit, and our excess consumption, doing to the value of the dollar lately? And what is happening to the price of oil? We may get that program back eventually.
--Mark
I still am alittle amazed at the 103rd St Station on the manhatten bound side (7 train), near the front, they still have some old light pole signs.
If/when they do remove them, will they sell them or junk them?
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
After enjoying a good railfan on the E, it seems they're rehabilitating the pathway between the 8th Ave. Lines and the Flushing Line as well. All the ads have beeen scrapped off and smeared with concrete and the floors have been scrapped of their dirty concrete.
I bet it'll look great!
I just hope they sell them because I really would buy the plates (that, or screwdriver one off the wall... uh yeah. :P)
Though modernization is the MTA's plan for that particular plan and leaving those signs on there is just asking for trouble.
If anything, the SAS is important as well, but a lot of things influence that and that's another thread altogether.
The MTA isn't ignoring the past, though. Go look at a bunch of their projects on some of the BMT Broadway stations. They used to have that tacky 70's-style 'refrigerator' tile look but they were faithfully restored.
Now if they would only do that for the 4 Av stations, they will look much better. Union St is OK and had a full renovation already so if the do the 4 Av stations, it will be interesting to see what they do to Union in particular. Man 86 St on the R really needs help!
does anybody have a website i can visit, where i can learn about rail distressing?.
thanks
8 >) ~ Sparky
No you won't... DUH! :)
Pssssst, I'm taking the day off.
Randy Kennedy is at the Transit Museum; the Daniel Greene exhibit is at the Grand Central annex.
I will be at the TM in Brooklyn while I will attend the GC exhibit on another day.
you are right DUH! for me. :-)
In many cases if you didn't know they were paintings you would think they were photos.
I was slighty disappointed that Daniel Greene only had a print for sale of only one of the paintings. I happen to like the 96th St painting.
"As for the railroad tube, the [LMDC historic preservation findings] document said part of it might be incorporated into the memorial center, which will contain salvaged artifacts. Many of these are kept by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey in a hangar at Kennedy International Airport. They include some of the trade center's distinctive three-pronged columns, as well as ruined fire trucks, police cars and PATH trains."
from the PATH Roster page on this site:
The train abandoned at the World Trade Center on 9/11/2001 consisted of cars: 845, 139, 143, 612, 750, 160, 745. They were removed by truck/barge to Staten Island for decontamination and stripped of usuable parts.
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NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT
NYCTA #00663278
MULTISCREEN #14179
OPx 87118, 10 13 03, 4 OF 4
SIDE DESTINATION, SOUTH
R32/R38 GOH
PART # 14-81-7401
MANUFACTURED BY
MULTISCREEN INT'L, INC.
Now, the rollsign readings.
Exterior ReadingInterior ReadingBedford-
Nostrand AvsBedford-NostrandJay St-
Boro HallJay St-Boro HallHoyt/
Schermerhorn StsHoyt/SchermerhornBrooklyn
Bergen StBergen StBrooklyn
Smith/9 StsSmith/9 StsBrooklyn
Church AvChurch AvBrooklyn
18 Av/McDonald Av18 AvBrooklyn
Kings HwyKings HwyBrooklyn
Avenue XAvenue XBrighton
BeachBrighton BeachConey
IslandConey IslandLower Manhattan
Whitehall StWhitehall StManhattan
Canal StCanal StHerald Square
34 St34 St-Herald SqQueensboro
PlazaQueensboro PlazaGravesend
86 St86 StBensonhurst
Bay ParkwayBay ParkwayBrooklyn
New Utrecht AvNew Utrecht AvBrooklyn
9 Av9 AvBrooklyn
36 St/4 Av36 St/4 AvBrooklyn
59 St/4 Av59 St/4 AvBay Ridge
95 StBay Ridge-95 StGrand StGrand StLower East Side
2 Av/Houston St2 Av/Houston StManhattan
Bway-Lafayette StBway-Lafayette StManhattan
W 4 StW 4 StWorld Trade
CenterWorld Trade CtrPenn Station
34 St/8 AvPenn Sta/34 StBrooklyn
Euclid AvEuclid AvHoward Beach
JFK AirportHoward Bch/JFKOzone Park
Lefferts BlvdLefferts BlvdFar Rockaway
via JFK AirportFar Rckwy via JFKRockaway Park
via JFK AirportRckwy Park via JFKBrooklyn
Broadway JunctionBroadway JctMiddle Village
Metropolitan AvMetropolitan AvBrooklyn
Myrtle AvMyrtle AvBrooklyn
Marcy AvMarcy AvManhattan
Essex StEssex StManhattan
Chambers StChambers StLower Manhattan
Broad StBroad StShuttleShuttle
I remember posting the other day, that the pattern of the destinations would more or less follow the rollsign list on the R68 cars. This is reflected in the above list. However, there are some differences:
1. The following readings on the R68 rollsigns, are absent from the new R32/38 rollsigns:
Prospect Park, W 8 St-Aquarium
2. The following destinations on the R68 rollsigns have different corresponding texts on the R32/38 rollsigns (excluding abbreviations):
Rockaway Park|Beach 116 St is shown as Rockaway Park|via JFK Airport.
Brooklyn|86 St is shown as Gravesend|86 St.
3. The following destinations do not appear on the R68 Rollsigns, because these destinations are in areas forbidden to 75-foot cars:
Brooklyn|Broadway Junction, Middle Village|Metropolitan Av, Brooklyn|Myrtle Av, Brooklyn|Marcy Avenue, Manhattan|Chambers St, Lower Manhattan|Broad St
Also, the following destinations have been removed from the R32/R38 South Terminal roll:
Atlantic Av, Brooklyn (replaced by Broadway Junction as a terminal station)
Crescent St, Brooklyn
Eastern Parkway, Brooklyn (renamed "Broadway Junction")
Jamaica Center|Parsons/Archer
Pacific St, Brooklyn
Prospect Park, Brooklyn
Rockaways, Queens
Union Turnpike|Kew Gardens
42 Street|Times Square
47-50 Sts, Manhattan
And the following have been added to the roll:
Bedford-Nostrand Avs
Brooklyn|Avenue X
Brooklyn|Broadway Junction
Gravesend|86 St
Brooklyn|New Utrecht Av
Middle Village|Metropolitan Av
Brooklyn|Marcy Av
Manhattan|Essex St
The new sign is in the Rollsign Gallery now.
Do you know if all the R32/38 will be updated with the new rollsigns?
Also what font did you use in recreating the rollsigns (and what font they use in the station sign?)
I used the standard Helvetica/Switzerland-style font, which the MTA uses in newer station signs.
167 St/Grand Concourse
175 St/GW Bridge
57 St/6 Av
Utica Av?
Well, these were not on the previous version of the south terminal roll. The first 3 are on the North terminal roll. I have not seen the 4th on either the north nor the south terminal roll. I have seen that on on IRT (i.e. Redbird, R62, etc.) south terminal rollsigns, but since no B-division cars can run on IRT trackage, it was not needed on the R32/38 rollsigns.
Also, Utica/Fulton is not used as a terminal station.
Ok, now I know that there was no destination. However on a GO one time a few years ago, A trains did indeed terminate at Utica Av.
Hey, maybe a bunch of us should get together and get a bulk order of rollsigns, direct from the source, maybe we'll get them for less than the MTA is charging...LOL!
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Concourse Yd, Perry St(205), Bedford Pk, Fordham, Tremont, 167, 161, Roosevelt, 5av/53, 42/8(N), 42/8(S), 34/6, 30/8, West 4, Canal/8, Chambers/8, Hudson Term, York, Hoyt, Lafayette, Utica, EastNY are GRS model 5E machines.
8/14 is a BMT style GRS model 5, it along with 3/14, Bedford, and Myrtle which are GRS Model 2's, are all currently being replaced by relay plants under the CBTC project.
I think Northern is QBMT. -might as well be hand throws for as much as it gets used. Job security!
Click here to view photo
Anyone at NYCT is in need of a proofreader? I need to submit my resume A.S.A.P.. :-)
Look at the route maps for the D line at the D platform at 34 St. IIRC, the 170 St station was listed as "170 St - Grand Concouarse."
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That's a big price to pay for better performance in the winter.
You took the words out of my mouth. I guess that means in a 8 car train, 160 people will be standing! If I were the Metro North rider, I'd invest in a good pair of sneakers!
Here's a novel idea. I know a way they ride the train and they have a very good chance of getting a seat. The trains have heat and you rarely break down. It's called MTA folks.
Move to Manhattan, Queens or Brooklyn and your worries are over.
Now if you could just persuade my job to move to Manhattan, I wouldn't have to ride MNRR on a reverse commute.
You know folks. All this cursing is due to the fact the Metro North commuter does not want to live near the city. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to live 50 miles from Manhattan, there is a price that must be paid. It's called poor rail service. I hear the same sad songs from NJ Trainsit riders coming into the city from South Jersey. You hear the same sad stories from LI railroad users who are terrified whenever it rains or snows.
I really don't know what to think of it anymore. There's plenty of good towns and homes in the New York Metro area. Since you spend most of your life working in Manhattan, why bother living in a town where you'll only spend two full days of the week? I don't understand it?
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We wouldn't want that, that's against the Contract with America.
Historically, spending on infrastructure has had multiplier effects in terms of the money benefiting the communities, and the cost per job looks good too.
The only part of the bill I’m worried about is the talk of the tunnel under Pasadena. That looks like it could be SoCal’s version of the Big Dig!
I’m sure that’s going to be exploited by the SCAs to isolate themselves even more from the hoi polloi.
Might as well, adding those one or two lanes on the free-road mixed with congestion isn't going to do anyone any good at all. Unless their newspapers get excited over a 5mph predicted increase too.
I wouldn't characterize HOT (High Occupancy-Toll) lanes as backpedalling on HOV. I don't know if they'll fly, but it's the first serious attempt since before the Interstate Highway Act to force automobiles to follow a market model in highway use.
Mark
One of the concepts is that the free-highway-folks can't object as easily to the introduction of a toll as long as the "free" highway is there, even if traffic on it is stopped.
Anyway, there is a bright side about HOT lanes. Not only are you hosing the selfish drivers big time(look at US90? orange county), but there's also room for a rapid transit bus on there. Buses run park and rides and use the HOT lanes, and the fare is generally way cheaper. Maybe some will cheap out and take the bus. The capacity and benefits of rail still isn't there, but I'm still happy to see 20 people on a bus, than 20 12 foot long SUV's cloggin the road with their toxic gasses.
And those roads gotta make a profit.
Let’s also extend it to tunnels: $25 to drive into Manhattan between 6-10am. Let’s see what that does to traffic!
Mark
Someday soon there is going to be a general strike by everyone born after 1960. Welcome to Argentina.
Dubyita!
It is not Congress's job to "create jobs". If it did, we'd be a Communist nation.
Virtually all politicians of both major parties believe it's their responsibility to enact legislation that creates jobs. The only argument is over how best to do that. Needless to say, they are not all communists. Indeed, none of them are.
Time to bone up on your economics.
Untrue. Conservatives believe it's the private sector's job to "create jobs" and that the government should not do anything which will unecessarily impede that process.
The only argument is over how best to do that. Needless to say, they are not all communists. Indeed, none of them are.
You do not have a solid grasp on conservative economic principles.
Time to bone up on your economics.
Economics is as much about philosphy as it is about mathematics.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,111287,00.html
For the juicy details of how a PUS BRAINED HARVARD ECONOMICS PROFESSOR is spearheading the BFEE'S effort to destroy the american standard of living. idiot needs a lobomotomy. God save america from the econocrats. EVEN DENNY HASTERT WANTS THIS GUY TO GO.
I don't like outsourcing, but it's the wave of the future. We must adjust to it because we cannot stop it.
Their prosperity SHOULD NOT depend upon our workers losing jobs, or even "shifting vocations". Let China grow within its own population base. A Billion people shouldn't need 350 million people.
However, you could advocate for an amendment. Good luck. No one will support you because, ultimately, even a precious metal standard depends on the value we as a society place on it.
Gold prices float on the market, going up and down in a relationship with bonds, stocks etc. It isn't particularly special anymore in our economy anyway. And you can't eat the stuff.
So ultimately, a country's money takes value from the economic output of that country. Trying to fix that to a metal, or a type of rock, or a species of tree, or whatever, doesn't make sense.
Been done already. The Gogafrinchams tried that and the only result was the immolation of several major deciduous forests!
And the millions of Americans whose livelihoods depend on exports, who will lose their jobs when other countries retailate against American protectionism? Their jobs don't matter?
It can be stopped, or at least slowed by either or both of the following methods:
1) Protectionism, tariffs etc
2) Increased immigration
Taking a short view on things, (1) would be more palatbale to the electorate; taking a long view, (2) would stimulate more growth and leave America in a better position eventually.
For example, if I move a technical support center from the US to, say, India, why would I bring it back here (as opposed to expanding my India-based operation) if immigration brought more people here who needed that service?
Having a larger workforce should mean that the cost of employing any individual worker in comparison with one in another country will go down. This would make it economically more viable to set up business in the country with a growing population; so businesses which are already there will be less likely to outsource.
Yes, but it would work without the form of negative protectionism these laws provide.
Mark
One day robots will do all this work. Much of the unpleasant work from a century ago is now automated away.
Mark
Isn't that an oxymoron?
What's so sad about this statement is that fact that building highways has become one of the greatest job programs available by the government. We are shipping tens of thousands of good paying IT jobs overseas and shutting down hundreds of factories because of our trade deficit with China. The whole situation is insane.
Millions of good paying jobs have gone up in smoke and the only jobs we are creating are in the retail sector. It seems like the jobs of the future may be laying down cement on a highway to make road for our SUVs
It's really sad.
Mark
Make no mistake, the middle class is now squarely in the crosshairs.
In other words, the mass transit package is only 18% of the entire transportation bill. The money continues to increase each year because the motorist needs more highways since we are putting over a million new drivers on the street.
The transportation package is basically to buy more buses to put on those roads already jammed with cars. Insane.
: (
Mark
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Train was OOS and was in the process of relaying back towards South Brooklyn.
you wrote:
&shareName=Photo"target"_new">
When it should be:
&shareName=Photo" target="_new">
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http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=11936
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I'm wondering how seh tied herself to the track, though.
Mark
This is horrible. I doubt she tied herself. I'm sure they had cameras around the station and find the killers.
When they do catch these low lifes, tie them up, put them on the track, then run them over!
I don't see how the two correlate with each other, though the two were both tragic events.
Mark
Between the extremely rare cases of homeless people waking up with missing organs, and the big russian mafia there, amoung other things, why would anyone print such a loopy story?
I'd ask if philly is still the heroin import capital, but even if it still is, that's way too creative. Only one group I know of is this nuts.
N, she didn't - but suicide is such a selfish act - no mind is given to the effect on anyone else.
Not necessarily true. It can be perfectly considered and calculated. Some people take years to plan the perfect suicide.
Yes, but the perfect suicide still does not take others' emotional needs into account. In a way, it can be the ultimate in narcissism.
Agreed, though, that the person wishing suicide can look at the financial aspect: if it is well planned enough to be ruled an accident, the insurance company has to fork over the $$$.
It can do. Say if one's only relative is one's elderly grandmother, one might wait until she's died (of natural causes) before killing oneself so as not to upset her.
But then this person would have absolutely nobody else (no friends, coworkers, nobody) ??
It's possible for a person to be both non-social and unemployed. Then he/she would be capable of a perfect suicide. Having said that, it's obvious that throwing oneself under a train would not qualify. It would have to be something which wouldn't involve any innocent parties. Perhaps an OD would be the most perfect way to go.
It could still be traumatic to the person(s) who discover(s) the body. For this suicide to be truly "perfect," it would have to be arranged so that the body s discovered by someone accustomed to dealing with death on a professional basis, such as a physician or maybe a police officer. In addition, adequate funds would have to be left, so that the taxpayers do not end up paying for the funeral (even a potter's field burial must involve some costs).
Mark
Or use leg shackles and throw the key far enough away so you can't reach it if you change your mind.
Y-a-w-n
Man, what a lousey thread!!!!
This involves a 44-year old woman, I think the last name was McCrory. She was from outside the Philadelphia area and had been visiting relatives in Trenton. She had a history of mental illness. A followup article in the INQUIRER implied that the family was not surprised -- griefshaken and heartsick maybe, but not shocked -- that she had committed suicide. She was 'found' by an R7 conductor, apparently on the tracks near the North Philadelphia station. She was, or had been, in a kneeling position between the rails when struck, and had been violently decapitated by a passing train. Whether or not it was the conductor's R7 train that hit her, or an earlier train, was not made clear. Police said they found a suicide note in her pocket. As for being "tied to the tracks" the intial account said only that "a rope" was found nearby. This occurred Wednesday night about 6 PM and an Amtrak spokesperson said two NEC tracks were taken out of service at the request of Philadelphia police.
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;>)
It says that there are "No trains between 74 St-Roosevelt Av and Times Sq." during the following times:
2330 Fri to 0500 Mon, 27 Feb - 1 Mar and 5 - 8 Mar
It also says that the Queensboro Plaza station is closed. I haven't yet seen any similar G.O. announcement for N trains concerning QBP for this time.
Also, how would the (7) trains change directions? It would have made more sense if the G.O. posters/flyers said that the trains would be terminating at 61st Street, since there's an interlocking there.
What gives?
Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Ave will both be a circus. Looks like a good place to go after the MOD excursion trips.
Oh, long time lurker, first time poster here.
N Broadway Line
That is the interlocking that will be used. Perhaps they felt that having the train go in service for one more stop would confuse people.
N is running in two sections, Ditmars Blvd to 39 Ave, and its normal route to Lexington then to 71 Ave. Shuttle buses will run from 39 Ave to 36 St.
This all has to happen when I'm not here. @#$%!
A poster on the N train
But a question arises in my head... COULD the trains be in passenger service up to 61st street?
I think it's one of those "hidden" possibilities. You see a GO but there's more to it.
For example we all remember when we started to see those weekend service changes on the E train... "E trains run on the F from Roosevelt Avenue to West 4 Street." Saying nothing else, one would think that the E would then join its normal route and terminate at WTC. But one careful look at the train's center rollsign saying "2 Avenue-Manhattan" makes you think again.
Just MAYBE, this is just another one of those scenarios.
In any case, with a transfer to the LIRR at 61 Street, terminating the 7 train there would be more sensible IMHO.
JONN
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
someone let me know about this
JONN
Woodside Fisk
____________________________________________________
\ /
____________________________________________________
\ /
____________________________________________________
The switches are just beyond Fisk, and there is much more than 561 feet between Fisk interlocking and Woodside station. Hope this helps.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
I wonder if Flushing-bound trains will in fact run in service from 61st.
I think this GO was issued for possible dismantling the 69th-Fisk interlocking.
I postulate that this interlocking will only be used during GO's and not on a daily-basis. We don't need that express run gone, do we now?
7 train is going to be interesting which mean signals are going to get replaced very shortly to begin the first stages to CBTC which means 2 years of disruptions over the weekends. Get used to the shuttle bus and for the B/O some OT for the next 2 yrs. See how this can get split again for the summer. I can bet this will happen alot during the summer probably May thru August. Sorry Guys
J
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But if the Nets do move to Brooklyn, it would be an ideal (and closest location) to build a new exit there. Problem is it is too close to the IRT tracks and may not feasible from an engineer's perspective
If you look closely in that area of the street, there are two exits, since there is an old mezz and stairs to the street from the IRT 2,3,4 and 5 trains also.
As far as behind the doors at the end of the platform, there are just refuse rooms and storage I believe.
[For the uninitiated: there are a pair of gated passageway/exits at the south ends of the #2 & #3 train platforms. They are currently being employed as a storage facility for the tiles and masonary equipment used by the contractors involved in the renovation work. However, even before the work started these entrances had been closed for years to the public. I'm sure it was due to the fact these stairways saw little customer use (the exits would put passengers on the south side of Atlantic & Flatbush).]
Doug: On a vist to Atlantic Avenue a few years ago I noticed an IRT headhouse on the street level at the intersection of Atlantic Avenue and Pacific Street. It is similar to the ones found at 72 Street and Broadway. Whould you know when it was closed? I ask because it hard to imagine anyone crossing those streets to reach the headhouse. It would seem to be something of a suicide mission.
Larry, Redbird R33
It's been closed for at least 25 years, probaly longer. Can't imagine how it ever could be reopened without a massive realignment of road traffic.
It's been closed for a number of years but has been rehabbed and will reopen in the near future. In the 60s and 70s, a diner & newsstand surrounded it and contributed to its deterioration in Times Plaza.
It was removed for some years but now it's been put back...backward! The wall labeled Atlantic Ave is on Flatbush and vice versa.
Dopey MTA...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The former locations of the stairwells are marked in the side walls of the skylight well, and there's a nifty-looking gantry structure set into tracks in the walls that can move back and forth for people to change the lightbulbs and wash the windows. A contractor told me it's intended to look like a boat--and I guess it does, sorta-- as the whole renovation has an oceangoing theme, to fit the names of the stations. The arc of granite along the walls of the passageways is supposed to be a wave. He seemed very proud of the whole thing, as he should be, since it looks great.
He also told me, I'm sorry to say, that the south exits from the IRT station will not be reopened. A lot of work has already been done there building backstage rooms (as well as all along the Manhattan-bound local platform, where there used to be creepy emptiness between the IRT and LIRR stations). The stairwells to the street will remain for emergency exits, but they'll still be covered by steel plates. Obviously this would be reconsidered if an arena were built directly above them... although I think it's already a mistake not to have them open now, so that peds approaching from the south needn't risk life and limb crossing both avenues at an intersection that confuses drivers so much. Me, I walk around and go down through Pacific St., even to get to the IRT.
Ah, THAT'S why there's a skylight ABOVE the staircase. Seemed an odd spot to put a skylight, at first.
They'll never mop the skylights enough to alow sun.
www.forgotten-ny.com
--Mark
But that's not the big story. Hidden away in the last two paragraphs is the fact that the MBTA has allocated another $3.5 million for a consultant to "...assist in deploying the 100 Italian-made Breda trolley cars."
For those that don't know the background, the first Breda was delivered to the MBTA property over six years ago. They, uh, kept falling off the track. And you thought the R-142s were slow to be accepted and deployed!
(More background on the Type-8s on the NETransit Web site roster list... scroll down to Chronology of Type-8 Events.
Before you all run down there...they weren't The Maps, they were just those MetroCard holders with fold-out maps.
14th Street/6th Avenue is shown as an express station. If that's the case on the new The Map, too, people are going to be very, very confused. Has anyone noticed whether 14/6 is shown as express or local on the maps that are appearing on trains and in stations?
Unbelievable.
Frank Hicks
Happy Valentine's day.
Judging from the photo, there doesn't appear to be much body rot. But yeah, if it hasn't been run in some time, it may need a lot of work. Thank goodness for those MOD trips. Those museum cars can get some exercise. And if 381 and 1300 can join the party, moo-oooo!
That's an, uh, interesting figure of speech.
Besides, didn't that conjure up a better image to a fellow foamer than John Ashcroft getting all "ghey" over Janet Jackson's teats? Sheesh. *ONLY* America is into such fetishes ... in the REST of the world, teats are NO big deal. ONLY to us. :(
Frank Hicks
That will give you the line name and route.
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/index.html
Lets look at it starting in Manhattan.
In Manhattan we have "Trunk Lines".
They are: The Lexington, The Broadway, Sixth Avenue, Seventh Avenue and Eighth Avenue. You can also count Nassau Street, if you like.
Except for Nassau Street, these are all four track lines, Express and Local in each direction. The Colored Letters and Numbers derive from what Manhattan Trunk Line the route runs on.
Outside of Manhattan, you have Branch Lines.
In Brooklyn you get the most interesting variety of such lines.
They are: Fourth Avenue, Sea Beach, West End, The Culver, The Brighton, Nostrand Avenue, Eastern Parkway, and Fulton Street among others.
LINES therefore represent physical peices of railroad track, right of way, stations, signals and other accuterments.
ROUTES on the other hand are trains, or more specifically the path that a particular train might take from one end of its run to the other.
Let us look at the new (post 2-22-04) (D) Train.
The (D) Train designation is a ROUTE.
From Coney Island it will run on the following lines:
1. Local on the West End Line
2. Express on a segment of the 4th Avenue Line
3. Across the Manhattan Bridge including trackwork from north of Pacific Street to it's joining the IND south of Houston Street.
4. Express on the 6th Avenue Line to 50th Street
5. West on the 53rd Street Line to 7th Avenue
6. Express on the 8th Avenue Line
7. Express or Local on the Grand Concourse Line.
And that is the best explanation that I can give you on the difference between routes and lines, not that *that* makes too much difference, because most people use the terms interchangably anyway.
: ) Elias
I posted what I think are the best ones up on the SubwaySpot Gallery.
And as a bonus, there's a teaser photo taken a couple of nights ago in there that I think is cool. Click on its thumbnail to go to the gallery.
What does this stuff mean:
Stats:
Aperture: F5.6
Shutter: 1/125
EV: 0.0
ISO: 400
BTW, I also notice in your yard photo that the reconstruction is slowly but surely progressing. It's been a long time since I've been there...
Stats:
Aperture: F5.6
Shutter: 1/125
EV: 0.0
ISO: 400*
"Aperature" is an adjustable diaphragm of overlapping blades which can be thought of like the iris of the eye. The larger the f-number the smaller the aperture, and thus the less light it allows in. The aperature number is called the "f/stop" of the camera. The f/stop regulates how much light is allowed through the lens by varying the area of the hole the light comes through.
"Shutter" speed regulates how long the film is exposed to light coming through the lens. In the case of a digital camera, the shutter speed is the length of time the "shutter" which covers the CCD, allows light onto the CCD
"EV" is Exposure Value. This is the combination of the sensitivity of the CCD/CMOS (or ISO), aperture and shutter speed.
"ISO" is Sensitivity (ISO).
In film photography the ISO (ASA) value of a film represents the film's sensitivity. A film with a lower ISO (eg. 25) requires more light to create the same image than a film with a higher ISO (eg. 800), therefore higher ISO films are suited to taking high speed (or low light) photographs. Faster films tend to be more grainy with poorer color response than slower films. Most people typically use ISO 100 or 200 (sometimes referred to as cloudy) film.
In a digital camera the sensitivity depends on the sensor (CCD/CMOS device) which, compared to film sensors are relatively "slow" devices with an optimum sensitivity of about ISO 100. In a traditional camera you put in a film of a particular sensitivity and you're then stuck with it until you finish the roll (you can change the roll in the case of APS). On modern digital cameras you can select the ISO sensitivity on the fly. This ability to quickly switch sensitivity is another attraction of digital cameras.
Chuck Greene
I'm getting riled up since my transit website is bare with photos (the only 1 I really have is from a disposable, then the shot was scanned: it's of an R46 at 23rd-Ely).
I just can't wait.
Good luck!
Chuck Greene
Replace the C/R with the T/O.if ya look out at the front of the train,
at the front of every station there are numbers at the ceiling(4,6,8,10,11,S=stop,OPTO=One Person Train Operater)those are where the
train is suppose to stop.if the T/O gose past it or overskips it,he can buzz in twice to let the C/R know to open the doors.
til next time
If the T/O gives two buzzes it is NOT ok for the C/R to open the doors.
This possibly explains why it appears that both Brighton tracks will have access to track 2 in addition to the pre-reconstruction configuration of tracks 1, 3, and 4. It would appear that it is possible that West End trains will utilize the Brighton's tracks 3 and 4, while tracks 7 & 8 are finally revitalized. This makes a lot of sense because winding West End trains through the labyrinth of switches north of Stillwell to tracks 1 & 2 is tedious at best. And probably more importantly, yard-bound Brighton trains would have to cross West End tracks if Brighton trains resumed using 3 & 4 during this period.
I hope this is interesting to somebody else but me. I got a huge "ah-ha..." when I was on Joe's site and am hopeful that this hobby hasn't permanently blurred my sense of reality.
I was at the old station only once before reconstruction actually occur. I remember deciding to go to the bathroom, only to see how degraded it was. I would go over elements of it, but I've decided not to, given how disgusting it was.
The MTA will make Stillwell like-new. This is what's needed to rehabilitate; not only the line but Coney Island as well. WalMart, anyone? :P
:0)
A Wal*Mart will NEVER be built in NYC.
I have heard it to be issues with possible unionization, or with "inventory shrinkage", but most likely has to do with CARS.
Wal Mart shopers arrive by car, the stores are HUGE, and the parking lots much larger. There is probably no suitable parcel of land that they might want to build on. Anyway, go to walmart.com, and near the bottom left you can enter a zip code.
Elias
SI Advance article
They aren't exactly getting very far in, are they?
Yawn. When manufacturing pulled out of NYC in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s, and 1/7 of New York City ended up on welfare, people in the rest of the state hated us on the grounds that city residents, especially minority city residents, were lazy and didn't want to work unless they were overpaid. This was used to justify all kinds of things, including providing NYC with less than its share of state school aid for 30 years, a policy that continued long after the welfare rolls fell.
So now when some other people elsewhere are losing out to those who are willing to work harder for less, society is to blame? You want someone from East New York who collects redeemable cans for a living to pay more for things so that those in the suburbs or the sunbelt can live in the style to which they are accustomed? Perhaps the person in East New York would prefer that his spending power, such that it is, go to somewhere where it will ensure that the world's poorest have enough to eat.
Yes he does. That's very clear from his numerous posts on the topic.
I operated a company in the Bronx called ASR ("Avalanche Sound Research") which made studio and radio electronics for the broadcasting industry. We had a kickarse design and the way I designed the electronics, we came in at less than a quarter of the price of lesser equipment from Harris/Gates, Altec Lansing and CBS Labs. I hired locally, and since there were *NO* qualified applicants who'd work in the Bronx ("you go up there to *DIE*") I hired from rehab programs and TAUGHT people how to solder, how to etch circuit boards, as well as the more mundane "orange-orange-brown is 330 ohms. Goes here."
I'll *TELL* y'all WHY America is in the chitter for manufacturing ... it's the educrat system! In NYS, BOCES is *not* a "technical school," it's a facilitator of wresting mats and other NON-technical things. America is getting its arse kicked *BECAUSE* "Tech" is dissed. A "Tech" diploma puts you into the "Special Education Squad" as far as the average American is concerned. If you can make a lathe *sing*, you're the UNDERCLASS. If you can machine and then stuff a 3 dimensional space with electronics, leaving little room for air, you're a MORON and NOT a genius as far as America's societal values go. America treats CRAFTSPEOPLE like chit, then cuddle up to that stockbroker that screwed 'em. :(
So what are we left with? A society too PROUD to learn how to *MAKE THINGS* and a society too busy trying to get a piece of it. Hell, most people are too stupid to realize these days that you CAN'T take a blowtorch to a frozen pipe (or one that has just a little bit of "undrained water" in it) to realize that you can turn the blowtorch to 10 megatons, it AIN'T gonna melt. :)
Where I'm going is that the migration of "technical" jobs offshore is happening for the VERY same reason that here in upstate, when the harvest comes in, it's taken in by Dominicans, Jamaicans, and "pore white trash" from Florida ... "Americans" *WON'T* do the job, and the employer is faced with "well, I gotta get SOMEONE in here to do it." And in the more TECHNICAL arenas such as GOOD programming, electronics, mechanics and other pursuits of science, you put out the "we're HIRING" ad, and nobody responds. :(
To those of you pursuing "death robots" and those pursuing "micromachines" and those of you who can solder 1/2 inch copper tube and MAKE the seal on the first try, OUR hat's off to you despite the morons who make Wal*Mart their highest ghod. For ANYONE who's chosen the "path of tech" *YOU* are America's future ... the rest of them are moneychangers.
When *THIS* country begins to re-appreciate the fact that "made here" is a GOOD thing, and that we should ENCOURAGE our "wee ones" to once again embrace the "hands-on crafts" then we might BE something. Until then, we're beholden to OPEC, the REPUBLICAN WAY.
Turn a wrench for Unca Selkirk, so I don't HAVE to wave my yankee-doodle-dandy. =)
Sorry, it's ALWAYS been one of my hardons. In years past, I *TRIED* to hire homies, and couldn't FIND any. And it's gotten FAR worse since. :(
I *cannot* fathom why being BLE, IBEW, IATSE, whatever is a *bad* thing. And why *everybody* has to become a lawyer, broker, or skumbag. The "trades" pay pretty well, and the more you're willing to perfect your craft into a NICHE *so* specialized that you can literally "name your price" because NOBODY else is CRAZY enough to do this (like me and what remains to this day with so many so-called competitors, "unique" because of our design) ... though I do "software" for a living now in my old age, all the prior learning experiences in "hands-on" as well as "expectations of a craftsman" are still there in what I do today.
But I sure *DO* miss the profit margins of the 70's in spending about $75 for parts, $400 for the people who slapped it together, and $2,000 for the stockholders. In *OUR* company, folks got a paycheck *AND* stock ... sometimes their payback (as fellow workers and folks who "make it go") in the dividends matched their paychecks. Rewards for ALL who made it happen, ANOTHER lost art today with the beancounter morons. Once upon a time, those who MADE it happen were compensated. Whoops. :(
That might be more due to location than lack of supply. I just spent last semester teaching math to a whole bunch of future engineers and computer programmers. But they're down here in NYC and may not want to travel to frozen lands (whether upstate NY or MN) once they have their degrees. And a lot of people who had responsible software jobs in the dot com boom haven't yet been rehired.
The urban legend amoung regional economists is that "technical" types with abilities in math and science don't like cities like New York and San Fransico, they like "nerdistans" with office parks and subdivisions. According to the legend, it is "cultural types" and dealmakers who like the city, because their work requires face to face interaction.
I'm not sure I agree, but that's been the legend since Edison decamped to Menlo Park.
There could be some truth to it. One thing often overlooked, however, is that your traditional central city employers like banks and financial companies employ plenty of computer types, so not all of them will work in nerdistans even if they want to.
Banks and such though are generally hiring people who do scripting. And although we may be in Nerdbonia here, there's a LOT of talent at various software houses throughout the area. Only problem is none of them are native New Yorkers - they hail from places like Texas, Alabama, California, Minnesota, Bulgaria and Taiwan. My point is that NEW YORK's educational system consistently fails to provide people with the needed skills. Not only in computer technology, but in older mechanical technologies for which there ARE jobs ...
And before anyone gives me any chit, R142 ... 'nuff said. EVENTUALLY, *BOTH* contractors said "to hell with the morons WE hired, we bring in OUT OF STATE people to fix it who KNOW what a "fiber washer" is. :(
Maybe you are affluent enough that you can look down on scorn with Wal*Mart jobs, but thousands upon thousands of New Yorkers would be extremely happy to work there. For most of them, the only alternative to earning a modest salary at Wal*mart or a similar place is to earn a goose egg. Face facts, the days when any semiliterate high school dropout could join the union and enjoy an affluent lifestyle are over. Deal with it.
(sure hope cleaning out the old pipes was part of the contract)
Ah ... the *PM* shift ... YOW. :(
You had the drunks, the morons I worked for, AND the "assault of the killer latrine" in the crew room ... and the stench wafted all the way out to the LAYUP "parking lot" yards betwixt the D and N lines as they meandered "home to Coney." It was just UNBELIEVABLE. Crew room reeked, platforms reeked, and I'd spend every day between about 9:45AM until 3:00PM wandering Coney with nothing else to do between shifts.
Under the "remains" of Stillwell, there was an exit to Coney right under the original control tower (became "signals dept" later, I suppose it was "decommissioned") with a huge ... ummm ... "comfort break en masse" facility ... and I'd come back after eating and have to go through there.
I have *ZERO* "fond memories" of "Stillwell" ... may they all rot in hell, them summanobeechie bastards. :)
Upstate Yahoo bars CANNOT compare to the John Waters "odorama" experience that was Stillwell. :(
But nothing smells worse than politicos spinning their turds. Except for the old "Eau du Stillwell." Heh.
There were a couple railroad locomotive engineers out here about tenyears ago who got wedded on the nose of a locomotive in the yard they worked out of....he was a road engineer, she was a yard engineer.
NOT so far fetched for those so inclined. "Be governed accordingly by the rulebook," moo. =)
Have you two actually thought about renewing your vows?
Unless you somehow mean go back to work for the MTA? Nah. I'd rather be KEEL-hauled. (grin)
Look at it this way: you could then say you married your beloved all over again.:)
My folks renewed their vows on their 50th anniversary. June 13 will mark 58 years for them.
Doesn't seem real practical--Track H is already over the sidewalk. They'd be swinging out over the roadway--lots of new structure and I don't think the locals would like it much.
The Brighton used 3,4,5,6 for a year, but 5 and 6 became primarily Culver in 1920, with some Brighton trains, esp. on weekends.
Both levels between W8 and Stillwell were technically Brighton--the lower level tracks are still chained "A". When the station first opened, Brighton Locals came in on Tracks E and F (5 & 6 if you prefer) and Express on C and D. Before 1954 Brighton Locals still came into E or F when the Franklin-Nassau was running. After 1954 Summer Sunday Brighton Locals came in on Track C and Franklin trains on Track D.
You mean any of us had any sense of reality to begin with? :->
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The url is : http://www.riverline.com/.
Copy and paste the link to reach the site.
The pdf files are now there, but the maps were created with Photoshop, not Illustrator, which means they don’t have scalable fonts and graphics. Cheap!
The FAQ is empty, which is just as well, because top of the list would have to be “Are you really, truly, cross your heart and hope to die, going to open on March 14th?”
LOL!
Chuck Greene
Not a problem. That question says March 14, but doesn't specify the year. :-)
As for the site itself . . . this system was supposed to be opened on the morrow but the bizarre reason of the LRVs not triggering the gate-closing mechanisms at the grade crossings suddenly surfaced after months and months of testing. Way to go, Warrington, for putting the evil eye on the erstwhile SNJLRT . . .
Wrong again.
I am also pretty sure that the profit is going to come in the form of a subsidy from Trenton.
And how can they sue NJT for cost overruns when they signed a DBOM contract? Isn’t it their responsibility if they didn’t do their due diligence research? This is one case where I wish the UK tort law where loser pays all were applicable.
Sean@Temple
Take one R33WF (or one R36 by "Catholic Divorce") and send it up to Toronto. As you should know, many filmmakers use Toronto as a cheaper setting for NYC in movies. It would be much easier sending the car up to Toronto than to California, first it's shorter, then the cars will not have wait in lengthy transit times across country via Chicago or St. Louis.
Once there, it could be placed in the TTC roster or with a private studio (keeping them with with the TTC makes more sense). In addition to filming NY scenes in Toronto with this Redbird, it could serve as a body double for the 1954 Gloucester "Redbirds" on the TTC.
Getting them there is not much of a problem unlike to LA-a CP daily freight would handle the job from Fresh Pond. Or for a publicity stunt, place a diesel engine modified to FRA standards and drive the Redbird up to Toronto on its on power!
The TCC and NYCT won't go for it.
TTC had it's own "redbirds", the Glousters. Except for the pair that Halton County Radial got, all the rest went to the junkman.
And a movie studio isn't interested.
An older TTC Aluminum H-series car with TA stickers and interior paint job is good enough for most movie-watches to impersonate an R42. CTA did likewise with a set of 2200's on the Loop L last year with yellow R decals.
The S50 is a point and shoot...
Thank you for correcting me. I recall a reviewer in Business Week really liking the EOS a lot. He thought it was truly awesome...
It doesn’t fit into a coat pocket at all, which is one of the reasons I bought it.
John
"The only advantage of the EOS Rebel is that its focusing is faster than the points and shoot. "
Well, that and all the lenses (fisheye, zoom, telephoto) and filters you can hook up to it.
As for filters, these days you can do all your filtration in Photoshop!
Weight is handled best with a tripod 0 but of course you can't do that on the subway...
The weight is not function of a tripod, it’s the backache coming from carting all the equipment around with you. I have climbed mountains (Ayers Rock, various bits of Yosemite for example) with a complete set of camera gear and it gets really heavy quite quickly. With the S50, I can put it in a coat pocket and just forget about it until I need it, so it’s always available.
til next time
No exceptions or additions
wayne
I love you MTA... ugh
wayne
wayne
David
1. It would allow the A train to reach Jamaica, providing a faster route to the downtown Wall street area than the multi-stop Jamaica line, as well as making more use of the Liberty Avenue line.
2. It would provide a direct route to midtown for Rockaway and Ozone Park residents via Queens Blvd. long before another route via Atlantic Avenue is completed.
A Queens Blvd. local (R or G)would replace the south bound F train and proceed to Parson Blvd and Archer Avenue. So for the cost of 2 connections and less than a mile of new elevated line the dead end at Lefferts Blvd is replaced by a fast route to Jamaica and the Rockaways. What do people think of this idea?
wayne
The E does follow the Van Wyck a short distance. Of course, as crowded as the Qeens Blvd. trains get today, does anybody really think the folks waiting for their train at Kew Gardens or Forest Hills would appreciate seeing an E train pull in after picking up crowds from all along the Van Wyck? Realistically, the Van Wyck subway might need its own ROW back to Manhattan, since the Queen Blvd expresses are maxed out.
How about a train using the LIE as a ROW, then transitioning to the Van Wyck and traveling its full length to the airport?
I never bothered to try those big gumballs. You'll probably break your teeth in the interim.
'Smatter, you got somethin' against dentists making a living? :0)
They're delicious, they rot your teeth, and allow your dentist toi send his/her kids to private school.
What do you find objectionable about any of this?
:0)
Why?
The way Jersey Mike and Koi walk, it is 4 minutes through the Gallery or 4.3 on Market Street.
Are modern loco brakes self lapping versions of AMUE.
Though not all the change has been to public transport: motorcycles and mopeds are also doing brisk business.
Is there anything going on the lex this weekend, affecting any part of the 4 5 or 6 in manhattan bronx or brooklyn?
Or, is everyone saying nothing because you all hate me and wish me great pain? I bring you announcements, and announcements and other soundfiles should make you happy since we're all railfans, right?
Can't say much for your vengeful personality though. ^^;
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! XD
Yes. See http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/subsrvnweekend.htm
This seems to be a general problem with RR maps. I bought a copy of Richard Carpenter's Railroad Atlas of the United States in 1946, Volume I, which is great except for one thing. A one track spur is indistinguisable from a four track main line, unless you read the notes.
Surprisingly, Walker is British...guess it took a Brit to do a complete USA RR atlas.
www.forgotten-ny.com
You can see example pages from these atlases and order them at http://www.spv.co.uk/acatalog/atlases_f.htm.
But note these are route maps, not track maps.
Click here for the introduction to all the albums.
Click here to see photos of some of the 'classic' locomotives still in use;
Click here to see modern locomotives, including Canadian-built GMs;
Click here to see multiple units, including commuter trains.
One photo shows a train of two 455s (having 4 cars each); and the other shows a train of one 421 (having 4 cars).
Are these suburban or express trains?
Is it the usual practice to run 8-car trains in the peak hours and 4-car trains the rest of the time?
Which London commuter lines run trains that are not multiples of 4 cars long? The South Eastern used to run 10-car trains.
Suburban trains used to have cars divided into individual compartments, each having two bench seats and two slam doors. Are any of those compartmented trains still in service?
I have read in British Rail 750V D.C. Electric Multiple Units that these trains were withdrawn from service by about 1990.
"The EPB units (together with the 304’s) were the last trains on the UK railway network to offer ‘single’ compartments with no corridor type accomodation. The single compartments were disliked due to the percieved lack of personal safety after a number of attacks on travellers thus for the last few years this accomodation was only available during the peak hours. "
I note however that those compartmented cars had the maximum possible seating capacity, having no corridors or gangways.
The only ones I know are that the class 455s are suburban and the Class 421 are express, to places such as Portsmouth and the like. The class 455s seem to run in 8-car formations most of the time from what I've seen. I think some suburban lines also run 2-car trains as well.
On the South-Western, at least the Epsom line is 8 cars all day. When I've ridden other lines I haven't exactly been paying much attention, but I think they're pretty much all 8 cars now.
Which London commuter lines run trains that are not multiples of 4 cars long?
Chiltern. You get 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s (2+3), 6s (3+3) and very rarely 8s (4+4), depending on which train it is, what day it is and how disrupted service is (when the WCML is closed during the week, you get some trains with stops cancelled at King's Sutton and Widney Manor due to the trains being too long for the platforms and Chiltern taxi-ing people from Banbury and telling people to ride Central Trains at Dorridge respectively). There's even a single car shuttling between P Risboro and Aylesbury. I think Thames Trains use a similar range of train lengths too, being the other major user of 165/166s.
Suburban trains used to have cars divided into individual compartments, each having two bench seats and two slam doors. Are any of those compartmented trains still in service?
No, but you get quite a few with slam-doors and often corridors too. Good trains to expect those to be on tend to be rush hour only services, for example the 1629 and 1829 Ldn Bri to Epsom (NOT Downs) via Tulse Hill. Last summer I got almost all slam doors on the various routes in the Chi - Havant - Pompey area (although the creeping tide of Electrostars was beginning to take hold).
1. Now that compartmented slam-door trains are a thing of the past, is there a simple way to distinguish between suburban and express trains based on their appearance?
2. At a station served by more than one route, how do you distinguish one route from another? Some trains used to have route codes displayed at the front. Some stations used to have a wooden board showing the destination of the next train.
Nothing simple. There are many different classes of electric and diesel multiple unit in service (although now very few loco hauled passenger services). Nor is there a very clear distinction between suburban and express trains but rather a gradation from one to the other.
2. At a station served by more than one route, how do you distinguish one route from another? Some trains used to have route codes displayed at the front. Some stations used to have a wooden board showing the destination of the next train.
Route codes were a speciality of the 'Southern Electric' network (the 750V DC network to the south of London). To my knowledge they were never used elsewhere. Some trains still show them in that area, but others no longer do so.
The rather labor intensive wooden boards (again a Southern Electric speciality) have largely been replace by dot-matrix or TV monitor style displays.
Route codes still appear in the SE and SW timetables (but not the SC). Well, at least they replaced those wooden boards!
The destination indicator on the front of the train can sometimes offer useful clues (8-) .
That's an excellent idea — assuming that they actually have destination indicators (8:( .
Am I seeing purple lights here?????
Since the first trains I ever saw were all green, I can assume that I have a conservative opinion here, but it seems that some of the train operators bought their paint from the local authorities who couldn’t otherwise get rid of their paint when they painted their park benches in the “rhubarb and custard” paint scheme.
Maybe we can sell shares in restraint.
Red, white and blue sides, yellow fronts and gray tops and bottoms! Everything but the original green. Garish is the word for it.
Is the station going to be renovated? I know the stations directly to the north are currently under renovation. Will the MTA next go to 96th Street?
Also, I heard of a plan for a new passage and stairwells to the north side of 96th Street. Supposedly this project has already been designed. I'd say this is necessary, because of dangerous overcrowding during much of the day. Anyone know details?
#3 West End Jeff
David
Or is 86th already considered to have been rehabbed because of the art plaques and SB part-time entrance added in the late 80's? The 50's-style extension tiles are still up through most of the station, and the NB platform desparately needs a second exit. (There's currently only one fare control area, with four turnstiles and two staircases to the street. That's not enough for a station with over 5 million annual fares. In the afternoon rush, the stairs are often still backed up to the booth when the next train comes in. I discovered tonight that one of the two staircases is closed until Thursday -- I can't wait to see the afternoon rush tomorrow!)
I agree with that, maybe its time will come soon. Speaking of Bleecker, what about the transfer from 6 Av trains to the uptown 6 platform that was supposed to be built?
On the topic of 96th, I agree that station needs a makeover. My empirical observation express stations tend to have longer waits, because those stations are so much harder to renovate.
So true . Just look at the lines at Broadway BMT and 4 Ave in Brooklyn . In the 60's when they put up that 60's block tile , the express stations were forgotten completely . Local stations tend to be fixed up more often because there are no track walls to worry about .
Doubt a 1 AND 9 can dump geese at SAME moments on the SAME platform.
Nice to see that it only took a week to repair one single step.
Haven't nearly all of the other Contract 1 stations been rehabbed over the past twenty years, except those that are closed? I haven't been north of 116 in a few years, so I don't know how the end of the line is holding up, and certainly they botched 23rd St. and 137 St. so badly that they should do 'em again, but now that 103, 110, and 116 are so nice and shiny I'd say we're going into the anniversary in pretty good shape. (Even 96th St. isn't so bad--if you only exit at 94th St...)
Speaking of 116, though, have we lost the bronze 'Throne' sculpture/chair that had been on the downtown platform past the newsstand? I looked for it this week and didn't see it.
Feasible to think 96th Street Bway would be somewhere on the 'to do' list.
Also 145th on the 3 and Mott on the 2.
Some of those stations are in hideous shape.
The throne departed when the rehab work began. I hope it'll return later, but I'm not holding my breath.
As for 23rd, I don't think it's all that terrible, although the platform is hilarious. I'd say 28th is worse, since it still has 60's-style extensions, the walls are plastered with ads, and the tile grout is awfully dark.
Do you also mean 28th/7 Ave line too? If not, both sides of 28th/PAS were extended in the 30's, so there are no 60's tiles on either side. 28th was renovated a bit in the 80's, not as extreme or as badly as 23rd/PAS.
As for 23rd/PAS, it is hideous. Almost every remnant of the 1904 station was either covered or destroyed in the horrible 80's renovation. The orange tile is absolutely awful. I wonder if the old tiles are still underneath. The only remaining pieces of the 1904 station are one or two tapestries on the uptown platform, a monogram or two near the ceiling, and a 23rd Street tablet in the newstand. It's a real shame. In 28th St's renovation they did get a bit "ultra-modern" (for the 80's) in the fare control area, but they didn't destroy too much.
As for the stations on the lower end of the Bway-7th Line, each one was done a different way, and most were done by the MTA in-house. I believe I read somewhere that they were testing different designs, and the those stations on the lower Bway-7th line were the guinea pigs so to speak. I kind of like most of them, even 23rd with it's strange floor. Houston is a bit overdone, although nice. 18th and Canal were done very classy.
Actually, it may be Franklin that is a bit overdone. It's one of them, I forgot which I am thinking of. One of them has too many colors, like marble, yellows pinks. It's nice, but sort of busy.
you could say the same of most of the stations on the 1
On the Blue Line, the entire structure was so decrepit and unsafe, it made more sense to demolish the whole thing and build a new one.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
So offhand, my answer would be "no."
David
Hell, even I asked about it back then and I bet my thread will hold more posts than yours will. :)
If the structure was still intact, I'd have like to have seen it rehabilitated and used by M trains (running to Ditmas Ave all day long), similiar to the 1954-1959 service pattern.
I believe similar reasoning led to the end of Manhattan Beach, Bushwick and Bay Ridge passenger LIRR branches...and the neglect of today's G.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I guess there is only one thing left to do.
Regards,
Jimmy
I will not be on any of the first bridge trips, but I would like to meet you during your trip to New York. I've left my e-mail on this post.
Regards,
Mr Gray...........
Sit down to a warm place and enjoy some real Kosher Falafel and other goodies. :-)
#3 West End Jeff
The "Axis of Evil" group will be at Nathans.
I have not seen those barriers anywhere else in the system, so why is WPR the only place with them?
IIRC, using the barriers means that no flagger is needed.
Well over time, there were many places that have/had those barriers.
Currently I think only the WPR line has them.
So yesterday I drove a friend up to DC area and dropped her off at her boyfriend's apartment in Maryland. She's not exactly the railfan type....she's mostly into TaeKwonDo, fencing, and community service. On the ride up there, we talked about transportation and such since she knows thats what i'm studying....and she mentioned that she loves DC because "they have cool trains there"...."I tell my boyfriend that I just like riding the train, I don't care where we go, as long as we get to ride the Metro!" Awesome, I thought to
myself! I told her that when I ride the Metro, i'm usually in the front of the front car looking through the cab, and that this was called "the railfan window".
OK, so I drop her off, then the though of driving back down I-270 at rush hour isn't very appealing, so I drive to Shady Grove and take the Metro into DC to see my friends. Some 6 hours later, I need to go retrive my car from Maryland, so I get onto the red line at Friendship Heights, and low and behold, who do I happen to run into on the train, in the railfan seat, looking out the window, but my friend and her boyfriend! Yes, my friend is apparently now a railfan....
Heck, when I went to penn state there were random conversations about the size of those buses and what's better.
Chuck Greene
Mark
Congress has approved $4 million for Florida's High Speed Rail project as part of a $820 billion package to finance most of the Federal government. The appropriation was initiated last spring by Senator Bill Nelson and Congressmen Adam Putnam and John Mica and Congresswoman Corrine Brown. This brings the total amount provided by the Federal Government to $9.15 million over the past three years. The Florida Legislature has kicked in $9 million. Governor Bush vetoed last year's appropriation.
---
Now, no ones gives federal money for the class size amendment that everyone hates and Bush used to want back on the ballot too. School boards spoke out against this, and now he's funding the measure billions. But the rail which has support and some money coming in for studies, he veto's. Double-standard.
There really seems to be an "illions" problem. People who get ahold of money in the mere illions with an "M" should not get their name in the newspaper, unless there is a few zeros attached.
Rapid transit in this system is an afterthought :-\. Of course you still have qquick stretches in the system.
Does anyone know why the R68s have that "mini-rollsign" right under the main front sign? If you can't see it, I have included a second photo that shows the "sign" in detail...
Anybody have ideas as to what this sign was supposed to be used for? I'm thinking it was meant to be used as a form of identifying whether or not the train was a "Local" or "Express."
How about the time the train left the terminal (like on the R110b)
With the greatest respect, I think your sarcasm is a little off here. Mr_Brian has posted two pictures, which clearly show that there is an area under the mask where it appears there should be something. Whether this is extra text that is on the main roll, or a separate roll is an interesting question. Mr_Brian doesn’t have access to the cars like you do, so he can’t say.
However, from the two pictures I have seen, this looks like deliberate design rather than scraping of the mask, so there is a valid question about what was the design goal and what should have been there.
I've seen the other R68s that have their rollsigns set rather low in the display, much like how the sign display is on the R44.
I applaud efforts of photography and all of that, but trespassing is something I wouldn't do.
Have fun railfanning, but don't break the rules...
Now, onto the message.
Wasn't me. I thought I might continue onto this thread since I saw two possible railfans on a R32 F today. I waited at 4th Avenue for a R32 and finally one came at around 3:30 or 4ish, with two people already at the window. I ended up shooting a horrible movie out the side door panel window thanks to the reflection. One of the guys got off at Jay while the other took a seat at Jay and got off at 2nd Avenue.
I don't know, do you???
You get enough stupid people taking pictures in restricted areas they just might decide they don't want anyone taking pictures.
Sounds like a lose-lose to me...
Here we are
And amen to every word of it.
Mark
I'm also starting to do a little photo-editorial thing on the TECO streetcar line development. Like a hobby/advocate thing, I'll start posting some pics of the going's on next week. A lot of foundations and frameworks have went up in the last month or so.
I read one official said they get plans for stuff to be built monthly over there.
I think freeway traffic usually averages more than walking speed. Even when congested, it does move in fits and starts.
Realistically, I do not expect a mass transfer to mass transit in large sprawling areas unless there is a very strong incentive. Even if you were to double the price of car travel and eliminate train fares, people would still go by car to save time.
But yea, there will always be people who still drive and kill their cars, that's why toll roads can charge whatever they want and make a profit.
A dedicated ROW provides an obvious speed advantage where road traffic is congested. That speed advantage is often negated by the time that you have to spend getting to and from the commuter train, and waiting for it.
The commuter train can run much faster, but it's unlikely to get you from door to door at your most convenient time. To take a large share of the market, it would have to run a frequent service connecting every neighborhood of every sprawling suburb. Usually the most that commuter rail can do economically is to connect some suburbs to the downtown area. Commuter rail can and does serve that limited purpose very well if radial roads are clogged with traffic and downtown parking fees are high.
If there was a train going part of the way to my place of business at about the right time, I would probably take it rather than drive on a congested highway. That might well be the case if I worked in the downtown area, but it's less likely if I worked in a suburban business area. One example of an inter-suburban line is the Los Angeles green line, which runs along the new Century Freeway (highway 105) and serves the suburban business area of El Segundo. Perhaps that's part of a new trend.
The Green Line was planned at a time when there were a very large number of aerospace jobs located near the western end of the line, basically south of the airport. Many of these jobs had vanished by the time the line opened. While I do not know if the Green Line would be considered a failure in terms of ridership, it's not certain that the line would have been built in its present form had the loss of the aerospace jobs occurred earlier in the process.
More in my R-32, 46, and 62a galleries on Subwayspot.com!
The last shot with the F train was pretty nice, with all of that street stuff going on in the background.
For future refrence, that website is SubwaySpot.com.
Chuck Greene
I probably wouldn’t click on any “Photos (MegaK)” subjects if I were doing dial-up though.
THE WORD "PICS" APPEARS IN THE SUBJECT LINE TWICE. He even told you HOW BIG THE PICS ARE!
Ever informing you,
Wheeeeee Go Go 6 train
As TD said, though, they're nice shots.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck Greene
How are you finding the focussing speed?
Bill "Newkirk"
It was suspected the contents were Anthrax, which led to officials evacuating
and closing the station for further inspection...
He was suspended without pay.... how the mighty have fallen?
Many years ago, Lou Albano was on a Mort Downey TV show and saying that the "guys" should be unionized so that they'd get a pension, health benefits and worker's comp. I'm sure that went over like a lead balloon with Ed Mc Mahon. That's why Captain Lou isn't used in his promotions anymore.
Had his suggestions been implemented, then perhaps Mr. Lesley would have something put aside for a rainy day.
This is true for many pro athletes, if we consider wrestlers athletes. Some sports have pension and benefit plans, mostly the major sports such as football and baseball, but they're the exception.
If I do become a WWF wrestler, my first job will be bodyslamming you into the side of an R-40!
Yes
Enjoy!
: ) Elias
1) Only the center doors of a car can platform at that station (given the sharp curve of that platform)
2) the end doors would have a gap of about 3 to 5 FEET between the doorway and a BLANK WALL...
and...
3) Moder cars cannot lock out the doors so that only the correct middle doors will open.
The last cars to be used there (a shuttle from bowling green) were specially modified to permit the exclusive opening of the center doot.
Prior to that, the old Low V cars *could* control the doors separately.
So, while a train can turn there OOS, it cannot stop there.
There is no intention in changing this, since the walk from Bowling Green is a trivial exercise even in the worst of weather.
Elias
By the way, this rather bizarre transfer arrangement was never shown on any map, either from the TA or otherwise.
Bob Sklar
Rush hour is the time when a Lexington Avenue service to South Ferry would be the most useful, because that's when the station enjoys its heaviest use. However, at rush hours most #5 trains continue to Flatbush Avenue. Thus, paradoxically, #5 trains would skip S.F. at precisely the times when they would be most needed. That's why, when the inner loop was last used in revenuse service, it was for a shuttle to Bowling Green, rather than as an extension of the #5.
No. the real reason is that modern cars cannot stop on the inner loop.
The shuttle was a special car with its outter doors cut out.
Flocks of regular route trains could not platform there, and could not do so since the Low Vs stopped running. End Door Gaps were in excess of three feet, and even then only opened onto a blank wall.
Besides the conductor would NEVER find the Zebra, since he would be behind the blank wall, and would have NO VIEW of the platform what so ever.
If it were possible, a schedule could be contrived that would have allowed it.
Elias
It's true that modern cars can't stop on the inner loop, but that's because there was no reason to design them that way, since this service hasn't operated in decades and there are no plans to revive it.
That could have been done only by reducing service to Flatbush Avenue during rush periods. This was deemed unacceptable, since South Ferry passengers can walk up to Bowling Green, but Flatbush Avenue customers can't walk to South Ferry!
They are not planning to demolish the loop—it would still be available for turning non-rush #5 trains and for reroutes during construction.
However, it would no longer be used for revenue service once the new station is built for the #1/9.
No, it doesn't have enough. It just can't handle any more.
Now then, enter *my plan* (I'm surprised I cannot find a map of it!)
Extend the southbound track past the present end of the staton along Nostrand Avenue, loop to the east on the existing LIRR ROW and follow Flatbush back to the existing station. Make it a two to four track line along (or below) the LIRR ROW with only narrow crew platforms leading up (or down) to a crew room.
Don't even flush the geese, they can cool their heals in the yard until the train goes out again.
And watch the capacity of that line skyrocket.
Scope out the neighborhood, and tell me what you think.
: ) Elias
If it was only supposed to be a station... then WHAT was supposed to be the Terminal?
Disclaimer: I don’t make any money from this referral. Nor do I warrant it, etc, etc. I just found it in the electronic circular that Staples sends me. I think I’m going to get some of those $20 wireless adapters personally.
Here
and here
just for two examples
Ridership on Bay Area Rapid Transit rose for the first time in 28
months in November and December but is still well below the transit
district's goals, a manager told board members Thursday.
In his quarterly service performance review for BART directors, Paul
Oversier, the agency's assistant general manager for operations and
engineering, said the average daily weekday ridership for last
October, November and December was 307,461, which was more than 20,000
passengers per day below the goal of 328,227.
Although BART halted its streak of 28 consecutive months of ridership
declines, Oversier said, "We're far from being out of the woods" in
terms of getting back to the ridership levels of the early part of
2001, before the Bay Area's economy seriously declined and before the
September 11 attacks.
"January was not a good month, although it looks like there's been a
bit of a recovery in February so far," Oversier said.
BART's total quarterly ridership level was 1,573,465 below what had
been budgeted. Using BART's estimate that the average passenger
spends $2.35 per trip, that means that BART had about $3.7 million
less in revenue for the quarter than it had anticipated.
BART spokesman Mike Healy said it's too early to tell if the low
ridership level will cause budget problems for the transit agency.
Healy said BART saved more than $15 million last year through "general
belt-tightening," such as cutting some positions, and raised fares
again this January.
Healy said ridership to the new station at the San Francisco
International Airport is about what was projected, but ridership to
the Millbrae station, the last stop on the Peninsula, is
"disappointing" and is less than a third of the level that had been
projected. Ridership to the new San Bruno and South San Francisco
stations on the Peninsula also is below expectations, he said.
What does the left photo depict? Tunnel plans?
To the quick glancer, of course. No one will stare at that photos for hours on end.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
BTW, it's more like you stealing their name, since they've been around since 1956.
Peace,
ANDEE
But what's this about their stealing your good name? Rather, I think they should consider suing you for besmirching theirs :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
Chuck Greene
Mark
Chuck Greene
And if his name were "Jersey Shore," he'd be angry about a town in the Pennsylvania mountains.
And if his name were "Jersey Cow" he'd have a beef with the dairy industry.
Betcha the founder was Michael, too, and the last time I looked, Point Pleasant was in New Jersey.
So, both of you deserve being Jersey Mike.
will city hall LL ever open?
full island platform service along 63 rd st?
Is there ever going to be Sea Beach Express 4 track service?
I doubt it. If there is no BMT service going to lower Manhattan, (rerouted across the Manhattan Bridge) why have people get off at City Hall? Bloomburg usually takes the IRT.
The SAS isn't built yet so there is no need for full island platform service along 63rd St. (You mean Lexington/63?)
Is there a need for Sea Beach express?
No, it will never open as a station for passengers. It was built because when they originally built the Broadway as a four track line, the express tracks were not supposed to feed into the Manhattan Bridge like they do now. When plans changed during construction, and the express tracks went to the Manhattan Bridge instead, City Hall became unnecessary as a terminal (as did the express tracks through the upper Canal St station). The station is not technically an "abandoned" station because it never was opened, or even finished for passenger service. It was never even tiled, as plans changed before they got that far. Today it is only used to store trains (the only purpose it has ever held).
full island platform service along 63 rd st?
Yes, that will happen if and when the 2nd Ave subway is built. The only station that is really an "island station" is Lexington Ave. (The other ones on the 63rd St line are not). The unsused sides of Lexington Ave connect to the Broadway Subway. Once the 2nd Ave subway is built, the Broadway tracks will be connected to the upper part of the 2nd Ave subway, and the Q train will run from Upper Manhattan, via the 2nd Ave subway, throuh the unused sections Lexington Ave, and connect with it's current route at 57th St. Of course the fake wall making Lexington Ave a side platform will be removed revealling the fact that it is really island platforms, and not side wall platforms.
Is there ever going to be Sea Beach Express 4 track service?
No, there will never be 4 track express service on the Sea Beach. One of the express tracks has been abandoned, and is out of service. The last time they ran full express service was about 30-40 years ago. The NX ran between Brighton Beach, running towards Coney Island, and up the express tracks of the Sea Beach to Manhattan. One of the problems with the express layout of the Sea Beach is that there are no local stations on the line, so no where but Coney Island to pick up passengers. There are no longer enough passengers traveling from there to warrant express service. Back in the days of the construction of the Sea Beach, Coney Island was a major destination in the summer, and expresses speeded people to Manhattan. Today, as well as 30-40 years ago when they tried it, the :Sea Beach express trains would be empty.
The express tracks on the upper level of Canal St were used extensively until the 1931 - when the connection between the Montague St Tunnel and Nassau St was placed in service. It was used as a relay to turn trains coming from Brooklyn through the Montague St Tunnel at City Hall.
If anyone has pictures on what the old Hudson Terminal Station looks like today, please post up the pictures.
South 4th Street Next Stop, this the (U) Train for Utica Avenue!
You wouldn't recognize the subway map!
Quit your shouting.
No there are no tunnels under Utica Avenue.
The Fulton Street Line Utica Avenue Station does have provisions for the Utica Avenue Line on an Upper Level, but these are only as wide as the existing Utica Avenue Station.
Elias
(There, now was *that* so difficult?) [sheesh]
Maybe this is what the stubs are for.
The problem with the Viewliners recently comes from the fact that because they are some of the newest Amtrak cars they have received minimal maintainence over their past decade in service and have since turned to crap.
Tell it to George Bush.
No Tell it to ALL of the Congress Critters...
No Wait... Tell it to the PEOPLE who in turn will tell the Polsters who in turn will inform the Press and the Critters what the peeps want.
: ) Elias
But there is a silver lining to the cloud: If this change means Amtrak's LSL train's reliability goes up, and the Viewliners gets repaired more quickly and attain a longer MTBF, then that is preferable to the current situation.
I would think most passengers would prefer transfering between two trains which run well as opposed to one train which is acknowledged to be a POS on schedule and equipment. Besides, won't Amtrak continue to check luggage through to Chicago from Boston?
I took the LSL (Viewliner bedroom) in 1997 from NYP and liked it. I'm sorry it's in bad shape. I hope this change helps.
Thanks for posting that info, Jersey Mike.
I was wondering if anyone can tell me how much of a problem death is in the New York subway system including all factors such as suicide,accident and crime.
It's something I've never really heard about but surely it must happen on a regular basis considering the size of the network.
Many thanks
David
In NYC, it doesn't even come close to being news. People die all over the place (like what else they going to do? Live forever?) some accidently, some intentionaly, and most still naturally. But news, it is not.
I have been taking care of ambulance statistics for the eastern third of Stark County for the past 15 years. I cannot give you the answers you seek. The records are far too fragmented. I had to write to a lawyer last week: "Sorry, the accident your client was involved in did not generate a record set with our service. Ask the other squad if they have it."
Yes, I gotta make a report to the state for all of our runs, but these do not include a client's name or the nature of his death. These are computer "bubble sheets" they have boxes to check if it was a highway accident, an industrial accident, or a farm accident. There is no way to enter data that the event occured on a railroad track, let alone that the patient was smooshed by a locomotive at 55 mph.
You (in NYC) would have to pull together information from five different counties, countless precincts and more, plus a dozen other agencies, and still not have a complete answer.
Elias
http://www.nypdnews.com/61803subway.html
I'm looking for some pics of 42nd Street and the Times Square area when it was a real s!@#hole in the 1980s before the cleanup commenced.
[mandatory subway related material]
Which can include the 42nd st subway complex before that was reno'd, as well.
If you can help, drop me a line privately. Thank you.
www.forgotten-ny.com
New York & Queens County Readings:
From Car #324, scrapped August 16, 1937
15TH AV.
162ND ST.
SANFORD AV.
WOODSIDE
FLUSHING BRIDGE
KISSENA PARK
HILLCREST
JAMAICA
COLLEGE PT.
SUBWAY
LUTHERAN CEM.
GRAND AV.
MT. ZION CEM.
SPECIAL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Combination New York & Queens County Railway / Steinway Lines
From Car ???
(Note: This roll has extremely early listings, such as from the Corona Line, abandoned in the 1920s; )
JAMAICA
FLUSHING BRIDGE
FLUSHING
COLLEGE POINT
51” ST. VIA JACKSON AV.
NEW YORK
CAR BARN ONLY
FLUSHING via CORONA
CORONA ONLY
8TH ST. ELMHURST
92ND ST. FERRY
EHRET AVE. ONLY
NORTH BEACH
RIKER AVE. VIA STEINWAY
FLUSHING AVE. VIA STEINWAY
34TH ST. FERRY
ASTORIA
FLUSHING AVE. VIA ASTORIA
WOODSIDE VIA BROADWAY
92ND ST. FERRY VIA BROADWAY
BRIDGE PLAZA ONLY
SHUTTLE CAR
CALVARY & LUTHERAN CEM.
MT. ZION CEMETERY ONLY
CELTIC PARK ONLY
SPECIAL
SUBWAY, 3RD ST. ONLY
GRAND AV.
NEW YORK
BRIDGE PLAZA
38TH STREET
31ST AVENUE
19TH AVENUE
21ST STREET
ASTORIA BLVD
92ND ST. FERRY
34TH ST. FERRY
ASTORIA BLVD & MILL ST.
BORDEN AV.
B'WAY & BLVD
WOODSIDE
ST. MICH'LS CEM
STEINWAY ST.
23RD STREET
44TH AVENUE
51ST AVENUE
CAR HOUSE
SPECIAL
http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/westside/irt-westside-bridge.html
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Or don't :-P
Looking for any details of location & function.
The original poster is going to send me scans of the backs of the photos which may or may not have useful clues.
I'd say it's somewhere near the current location of the New Jersey Turnpike near the Bayway freight RR station near Elizabeth (on the Hagstrom Map), but I'm making a wild guess.
The Camelback Road merchants can have concrete if they want to pay for half of the cost--the Feds will pay the other half.
So try to put yourself in the position of a shopper. Do you think they'd look at ballast and say "yuck" and concrete and say "Ooooooo"?
This is a strange argument to me, but who knows?
Never kick a gift horse in the mouth! If they want to fork over the $$$, by all means, do what they want. Concrete, little ceramic sculptures in the trackbed, whatever.
You've made them happy, eliminated a NIMBY source, and reduced the cost to the taxpayer. I'm happy as a pig in mud!
You've made them happy, eliminated a NIMBY source, and reduced the cost to the taxpayer. I'm happy as a pig in mud!
Oh, by all means! I'm just wondering whether they're onto something or not. Yes, a concrete trackbed is nice, IMO, and if they want to pay for it, I'm as happy as a clam in a mudflat! :)
Anyway, I would have to say that a flush concrete bed is more convienet to traverse than a balasted rail RoW.
He moved to LA and, when we divided our joint stuff, he got that map. I wouldn't mind having it now. I've never seen another like it.
And, it doesn't really work, as cars and trucks drive on the tracks in places, plus the cops (Balto. City and MTA) use the reserved sections as a private driveway.
Man, if I had a dollar for every time I've seen a car fly down the light rail ROW between Baltimore and Lombard streets...
Notice that when "Schaefer's Choo-Choo" was being built, nobody gave a rat's hind end about what kind of materials were being used. The only real opposition, of course, was in Ruxton...the ol' "conduit for crime" canard. Just shows that residents of Baltimore - a REAL city, unlike some faux "urban center" - have a lot more common sense. For now. I shudder to think what will happen when Centerpoint and all those other upscale homes open along Howard St.!
Doesn’t standard crushed-stone ballast absorb noise better than concrete? That might be a factor.
What I see is a monopoly, where they charge whatever they want to use the only way to get around, and they make a profit. There's also no accountability as the authority is allowed to do whatever they please with no input.
Is this the best most efficient way? Road becomes undercapacity again, take the profits and build more lanes! I guess these clowns have found a way to do things without the use of public transit.
Why dont i see plans for better express buses or "BRT" at least. All these people starting and ending at the same spot paying for parking downtown, gas, tolls, maintanence, etc. These 75k+ people are getting hosed in this next step of goofy transportation.
I guess the cities and towns that do this, won't be getting rail or other transit anytime soon. That requires taxes and public input, this doesn't indefinately. Maybe I'll start seeing twice as many car commercials soon. Problem solved.
Wrong.
In order for this to work, the toll on the "Express Lane" needs to be at least $20.00.
$2.00 is a piddling sum that anybody would or could pay for a "faster" lane, thus defeating the service, since it would no longer be faster.
I'd prpbably install EZpass type detectors along the side of that lane, and charge $2.00 per mile that you were in that lane.
Might work in Florida, but not in NYC.
Elias
Anyway, the lanes are pre-paid lanes only, no cash lanes for these 3 express lanes. Overhead high-speed gantry's do it at the entrance, no exits till the end of the line. On at one spot, off at one spot, very intersting.
But that is true though, 2 bucks is nothing, that would still be the cheapest toll in the region. Maybe because it's a short distance? I don't know. I think it was going to be demand based tolling so the price would go up, but I could be mixing roads up.
I thought I read that road was supposed to have an empty envelope for "future land use", ie rail. But their tearing up a rail yard to make room, so who knows.
The way it sounds now how the roads make "profits" and can fund it's own expansions indefinately, who's going to put a rail line or even a bus park and ride lot in?
It is a *transportation* business. They may start with roads, but if they find they can build a huge park n ride say 10 miles out, and use a high-speed link to downtown, and they can privately fund it: yes they might very well to it.
Elias
I know I've mentioned this before, but consider the toll lanes on the (IIRC) Riverside Freeway in California. They were added onto the existing freeway in the early 1990's and charge a toll that varies by time of day. Rush hour travel is the most expensive. Anyway, even before the lanes opened they were dubbed the "Lexus Lanes" in the local media, as everyone thought that upscale executive types would be the biggest users, at least during rush hour - a reasonable guess, given the high tolls during those times.
Also a (partly) wrong guess. Surveys soon revealed that the largest percentage of morning rush hour users were ordinary working stiffs. They paid often-burdensome tolls because they are the type of people who often have to be in work by a certain time, or face disciplinary action and/or docking. They couldn't risk getting stuck in traffic on the free lanes,. The upscale Lexus drivers, by and large, are not held so accountable at their jobs - they're sometimes the rule-makers, not the rule-followers - and therefore they had no need topay the tolls in the morning. I believe that in the evening rush, the toll lanes indeed were more upscale, as predicted.
: )
Well, actually, of course, they *are* but to the clock is not one of them.
Elias
In many cases I have observed that the people who make the rules are workaholics who are at their desks by 7:00 AM. So they miss the morning traffic.
In the evening they actually want to spend a few minutes with their children before the kids have to go to bed, and evening traffic doesn't die off as fast as morning traffic build up, so they are more likely to hit traffic.
Look for this in Orlando in the next few decades. That's the plan for I-4.
What I find funny is there was a transportation tax vote last november. 8 billion dollars. 3-4 billion on I-4, 400million for rail transit, and the rest elsewhere.
The local rejects and media got a hold for the tolling HOT lanes plan and thought that was part of the tax, even though it's been on the books for a while. So, they voted no.
The next week, www.trans4mation.org now has the tolling plan put in their website. Full steam ahead.
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. Instead of getting any good stuff, now they got nothing except a slow moving plan to toll the only free road in teh region.
I don't like the idea because the size and mass of the road is a real geographic and psychological barrier, but LRT, HOT lanes, and 6 free lanes, I think that's pretty balanced. And the LRT would be a heck of a lot cheaper than the HOT lanes anway. Not to mention the buck or two it would cost to ride express buses down the HOT lanes are cheaper than the tolls too!
And yes, I agree with you. In the mornings I always took all the fastest toll roads as they were more predictable in commuting. In the evening to go home, i took all the free city streets and one highway. That was a good 70-90 minute trip home back then.
No Reclining Seats
More non-Reclining Seats on trains, hence more pax
Removal of reading lights
Of course this concern the Amfleets.
How about the sleepers?
BTW: This is a joke of course...........
JM, when a business person travels out of town, it's usually to see a client, customer, prospect, or plant. He/she can't do that until they arrive at their destination and when finished, want to get home ASAP. The sooner they get there, the sooner they can leave. Besides, most employers want their employee back in the office rather than out on the road, unless seeing clients, etc. Hotel costs and meals cost quite a lot of money.
Exactly. And so a night train to Chicago leaving NYP at 1630 and arriving in CHI at 0800 is a BARGIN! It saves on airport hastles AND an expensive hotel room in CHI.
Conduct your business, get back on a train at 1700 and make it to NYP refreshed and ready to continue your business shortly after 0900.
Try that on an airplane!
You say my *times* are unrealistic? COWPIES! Steam Engines used to run it 50 years ago!
Elias
In business, taking 1/2 the week to vist Chicago to meet with someone "because the train's more comfortable" just doesn't cut it. You fly it, or you don't go (i.e., you're fired). You also can't tell a client "I'll be there sometime in a few days" because your competitior will be at their door 8am sharp tomorrow. And nobody accepts "The train was late because whaa whaa whaa" as an excuse.
It's fly or die. Get used to it.
Don’t get me wrong here: I’m all for expanded short/medium haul rail service. I would very much like to see air travel restricted to flights that are 2+ hours airtime, plus better integration of rail and air travel:
Go to local station at East Podunk. Check bags through to megalopolis. Take train to feeder airport and fly the long haul part.
Maybe with rising oil prices (which must affect airlines more than trains) we’ll see some of this in the US within the not too distant future.
I have a Brooklynite friend who's now in Florida (Miami). He took the Auto Train down there with his car. He said he won't be repeating THAT ever again. 13 hours on the train with nothing to do but walk through cars and watch grass fly by, and try to sleep at night. He didn't think it was very comfy, and didn't think it was any better than driving (we've done cross country trips before, so he's used to driving long distances). He also didn't like the 3 hours he had to wait to get his car back when he got there
For longer vacations, he flys up here - JetBlue, and loves it. The airport's not a big deal, and he's up here after 3 hours in the air. And, the seating's just as comfy, and he gets in flight entertainment. The crews are friendly, and things run on the button.
Sorry Mike - being canned up on a train for 13 hours with nothing to do sucks no matter what it's like, and frankly, Amtrak's just not very comfortable anyway.
hours on the train with nothing to do but walk through cars and watch grass fly by, and try to sleep at night.
Why didn't you friend bring his laptop, some good books or, god forbid, attempt to talk to people, you know, a little human interaction. Train travel is an atmosphere conducive to making new friends and learning about others. Unlike air travel where you are in a constant competition with every other passenger for precious recources of space, air and peanuts, on a train there is more than enough to go around. The other passengers aren't your rivals, but your comrads in Amtrak travel. I think your friend just didn't know how to travel on a train. The "stare straight ahead until we arive" thing of Air travel is totally not suitable.
and he gets in flight entertainment.
You mean some shitty chick flic not even shown in its original aspect ratio? On the train he'd have an at seat outlet with which to power any personal entertainment device he wants.
Funny, most people are still flying. And frankly, I've heard little bad about the newer carriers. United, etc? yeah, they suck. That's why they're in ch 11 and SWA, JetBlue, etc aren't. TED is regarded as the last big push from UAL to get out if the hole. TED fails, UAL goes bye bye.
Why didn't you friend bring his laptop, some good books or, god forbid, attempt to talk to people, you know, a little human interaction.
Because he didn't? Not everyon'e got a laptop to bring along, wants to lug a few books around, or talk it up (ok, he's not mr talkitup, period).
Train travel is an atmosphere conducive to making new friends and learning about others.
Who gives a shit? That's not attracting passengers.
Unlike air travel where you are in a constant competition with every other passenger for precious recources of space, air and peanuts, on a train there is more than enough to go around. The other passengers aren't your rivals, but your comrads in Amtrak travel.
Oh please. Air travel's popular because it's faster, intercity rail died because it's slower than everything else. It's that simple. The only place where Amtrak can be considered comptetitive is between NY and DC, which is the onlyt place they're speed comptetitive.
I think your friend just didn't know how to travel on a train. The "stare straight ahead until we arive" thing of Air travel is totally not suitable.
Maybe he doesn't, and he doesn't give a crap either - he's not taking a long distance Amtrak train again. Which means he doesn't give a rats ass about Amtrak's funding woes either. There's a surprising numbert of people out there like that, BTW.
You mean some shitty chick flic not even shown in its original aspect ratio? On the train he'd have an at seat outlet with which to power any personal entertainment device he wants.
Better than the below G rated, dumbed down, ultra non offensive, lowest common denominator, government approved shit he was offered on the train. Not everyone wants to watch ultra sappy Disney flicks. nor does everyone have a portable DVD player anyway.
However, the Boston<->New York<->Washington, LA<->SF and similar markets should cream the shuttles if done right: outlet power for everyone, WiFi Internet access (maybe Ethernet sockets next to the power) would mean that the shorter trips would be productive for the business traveller.
There is a tradeoff between speed, comfort and hassle. I don’t think you picked a good example.
NJT locals usually do 45 mph between Newark and the airport station, since they're usually on track 5 with its 45 mph turnouts. Even on track 4 80 mph would be unusual. The curve at Hunter is still 70 mph, isn't it?
By the way, I remember seeing MP73 on the 4. Have they moved them to the 11? I know as far as that when they retired the MP55, the 11 received some MP59 and MP73.
I know they did at some point, although I don't remember exactly when.
I assume they returned to the 6 at the same time as the MP73 from the 11. The 6 need 5 car sets. They probably combined the 4 car set from the 11 and the 6 car set from the 4, to create two 5 car sets.
Also, some MP59 sets have MP73 trailers in them. You could tell the difference by the interior design and the sound of "pneu".
By the way did you go this fantrip?
I wish I could.
My last trip to Paris was November 2002, do I don't really know the recent changes.
After the sounds of the "pneu" are the same.
If you mean "Après (aussi), le son des pneus sont identiques", I beg to differ (i.e. I don't think so), unless the recent overhauls made them identical. They didn't sound the same when the MP73 was introduced and didn't sound the same even when the MP59 became blue and white, and correct me if I'm wrong but the MP59 still sounded like themselves when I rode on them on line 4 in 2002. MP55 and MP59 were always hard to distinguish, but MP73 always had a sound of their own.
Also, you haven't answered my question about the fan trip on line 14 using MP73 stock. It's OK if you haven't done it, I just wanted to know how was it if in any case you did participate.
Back in the days when first class cars still existed, MP59 sounded the same whether on line 1 or 4. On line 4, you could tell an MP73 by the sound as it was approaching. You can also tell some of the different versions of MF67 by their sound as well.
Other thn the wheels, what is the difference between the MP73 and MF67, Also, which one of these had a stainless steel version ?
2. Those were MF67W2. I don't remember exactly why, but I think it was the cost of building them. They were not 100% stainles steel, they used aluminum as well. They were other experimental MF67 as well.
SNCF had better luck with "inox(stainless steel)" stock and is still running them on some of the suburban lines around Paris.
Also, after the tagging craze of the 90s, most European transit systems are going back to G-proof painting instead of unpainted cars.
Also I am selling my HP Photosmart 435 Camera. It's 3.34MP with a 5X digital zoom. It requires two batteries and it hasn't been used, though it's out of it's wrapper. When you recieve it, you get the installation CD, the Camera, two batteries. It has a Video mode with Audio.
The HP Photosmart 435 Price; $225
The Canon A20 Photoshot Camera Price: $175
Or both forn $350 ($150 per camera)
E-mail if you're interested
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
I don't mean to be a stick in the mud either...but you kinda have to sell things based on their value now...not in relation to the price you paid when you bought them.
I feel bad for the guy who offered $400.
Also, is there anyone familiar with the Nereid av 5 trains, as to knowing which car is the emptiest in the mornings (like on the Dyre branch few people board the first car)
How much more frequently, there are some (not many) (5) trains with 4-5 minute headways in the AM and PM rushes. They could reconstruct the schedule and squeeze in a few extra 5 trains (they did for the PM in Fall 2003, notice the extra <5> train PM rush)
People at 241/238 won't like losing their <5> trains. I was at 238 and seen a few people get on the (2) that was in the station. A <5> was pulling out of the yard. The (2) pulled off and the <5> came a 5-10 seconds later and everyone else got on that. That should tell you how popular the <5> is. Just like how many people at Parkchester-177 would let (6) trains go by and wait for the <6> to show up. Pretty much sure they do the same thing at Main Street for the <7> and let the (7) go by.
Did you see the latest G.O. poster for the (5) and <5>
http://mta.info/nyct/service/pdf_f/08_5so.pdf shows some of the running times in the AM. There is a 5 minute headway between the 7:35 and 7:40 Dyre Av
There can be many reasons why an individual train might be very crowded. The most obvious is that there was a bigger than scheduled gap between it and its predecessor.
Unless the station use figures have changed drastically in the last few years, you were probably a victim the TA's operational management rather than a victim of a fundamental mismatch of service and demand.
Jeez! You can't even tell one track from the next! And you guys thing W. 4th St is a nightmare??? Yeah right...
Jimmy
Here's another picture of the area. Click on it to bring you to world.nycsubway.org's page on Tower 18.
And here's a Tower 18 page from Chicago-L.org.
There have been several reconfigurations of the Lake-Wells junction over the last 110 or so years as service patterns have changed. Under present routings all Green Line trains run straight through the junction on Lake Street; the connection in the southwest quadrant, at lower left in the photo, isn't routinely used, although it sees occasional traffic when Lake Sreet trains must be turned back at the Loop for some reason. Brown Line trains run counterclockwise on the Outer Loop, going straight south through the junction on Wells, and turning from Lake onto Wells northbound. Purple Line Expresses reverse this, with southbounds turning onto Lake using the Inner Loop clockwise, and proceeding through the junction northbound on Wells as they leave the Loop. Orange Line trains also use the Inner Loop, turning from Wells to Lake at this point. They enter and leave the Loop at its opposite corner, Van Buren and Wabash.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Try searching on Google for 'Newcastle Central Station' for some photos.
( Sorry , I'm not much good at giving links.)
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4 train represent!
Sorry dude, nothing particularly new, just stuff i've previously uploaded
Parisman, if you want them, send me an email. I'll send you what you want in .zip files.
Did you change your e-mail without telling your correspondents you were changing? That's not nice.
When I changed ours awhile ago, I sent my entire address book a message that our address was changing. I got back four "bounce" notices from folks that didn't advise us. As a result, they aren't in our address book any more.
As to the Dongle, it's beginning to look like Bomba sold NJT and the pols a bill of goods.
Chuck Greene
English translations probably would have cost a miniscule amount compared to the cost of the cars.
BTW: the Lexington is the East Side IRT.
Damn.
I'm not 100% sure of that. Remember that Manhattan does not run directly north-south, but more like northeast-southwest. South Ferry may still be the southernmost, but probably by only a very narrow margin.
Clicking on a thumbnail gives a larger image.
Well, the crossing gates are working...hmm!
The crossing at Riverside doesn't even have gates. It's a complicated intersection of streets going in 4 directions with the crossing essentially the center of an X. There were two or three flag persons there on Sunday.
When I took that photo of #3513 (linked above), I didn't realize that a depiction of the Watch Case factory was on it. The Watch Case factory was across the street from 3513 when I took the pic.
Does anyone know where the broken down E was? Thanks, in advance.
No, but I think we all have a pretty good idea where Wheee Go Go 6 Train
was recording announcements at...
I took the B branch from BU East to Government Center and had car 3714 for this trip. This car was rebuilt to an extent, I guess to make it compatible with the Type 8s. The panels above the doors were cream, the seats were black, and there was an annoying door chime and flashing light above the doors. Are they going to put this in on all the cars?
At Kenmore, there was a Type-8 train across the platform coming off the C branch which left before us. We followed it all the way to Government Center, where it and the train I was on both went out of service. I noticed that the Type-8 train always turned on its four way flashers at each stop. Is this standard practice in the subway and what is the point? It isn't like the other trains can pass the stopped train.
I rode the Type 8 train, 3846, back to Kenmore. The automated announcements are really dry and boring in my opinion. Are they the same person who does them on the Red Line? Also, the motors on the type 8 sounded like the R142As. Is it the same propulsion package? Also, if the Type-7 door chime was annoying, the Type-8 is not able to be put into words. That noise is simply ear splitting. Also, when the Type 7s and Type 8s are finally run together, will the Type 8's automated announcements play over the Type 7s PA system?
I went back to Park Street on 3687, which luckily did not have the door chimes. I then took the Red Line to Charles/MGH and got pictures there. I then took a train to Ashmont (the automated announcement could say this far more nicely instead of ASH MONT as if it were separate words) and rode the Mattapan line to Mattapan and back. At Mattapan and Ashmont, I saw NABI CNGs in the yellow paint. Are there any plans to replace the PCCs on the Mattaphan line? Also, what are the fare guidelines for that line?
I then returned to where I was staying via the Red and Green Lines.
1. Is there a RESERVIOR reading on the Green line roll signs?
AND
2. Why is Alewife designated as C on the 01800 Series cars?
When the french guys from Bombadier came to Boston they said, "A is for Ash Mont. :-), B is for Brain Tree" (which they kept spelling Brain Three for some reason.) "What is dis Ale Wife?", they asked. After the explanation, they said,"I see." which became "C" and now Alewife is C.
Hope this helps.
Jeremy
--Mark
The type 8s are Italian (as am I) and while they may be smart, they do not know if they are in the subway or out on the street, so the flashers will automatically flash whenever the train stops and the doors open. The announments were recorded by a different person than the recordings on the Red. The 7s will be retrofitted with auto announcements and whichever is the lead vehicle will provide the recording.
The PCCs will remain on the Mattapan as anything else would require all the bridges to be rebuilt as well as new power station for the increased power draw. The fare structure is: outbound from Ashmont= free, Inbound to Ashmont = free, Inbound to any other station = $.90.
As there is virtually no revenue from this line, it's highly unlikely it will ever be upgraded. When the PCCs finally die, it will most likely become a busway.
And Oren, you came to Boston and didn't tell us?!!
--Mark
Have I got it right ?
Why do they put the #s on the top of the car anyway? Its not like any yard realy has any practical view point where they can quickly take down #s anyway.
Just letting everybody know that I finally sold my piece-of-crap car this afternoon, and I'll be loading up a U-Haul truck and heading to NYC tomorrow. And unlike previous trips I've taken between Philly and NYC, this one is one-way.
Wish me luck on a safe and successful move, and I'll look forward to joining the festivites on the 22nd.
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Elias
: )
: )
Mark
Frankly speaking, after my trip to Wheaton Maryland yesterday I am glad I live 98 miles from the Capitol Beltway MD I-495 95
John
Chuck Greene
Mark
The Lehigh Valley Railroad terminal has been closed and its tracks are now part of the Conrail freight system.
Not for several years, they haven't.
Northern New Jersey operations
Conrail operates 471.4 track miles of rail lines in the northern half of New Jersey. Operations are concentrated in Essex, Hudson, Middlesex, Monmouth, Ocean, and Union counties. The hub of Conrail activities in the region is Oak Island Yard in Newark, with smaller local serving yards in Bayonne, Greenville (Jersey City), Linden, Manville, Metuchen, Newark, Old Bridge, Port Reading (Woodbridge), and Red Bank. In addition to providing local service for customers along the shared assets lines, Conrail also provides local freight service along Amtrak's Northeast Corridor between Newark and Trenton and operates an automobile distribution facility in Northern New Jersey for NS and CSX.
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Gunn makes another really good arguement
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02162004.shtml#Amtrak
I guess he's right we can't afford it.
We also can't afford the 1.9billion dollars Bush cut out of environmental protections last week(while tripling funding for cleaner burning coal, which I thought we accomplished already). Reversed the provisions so that MTBE additives can seep into our drinking water now.
Must be a tight budget.
I guess the citizens of the United States must be punished from having any programs that help us domestically because of the record spending our prez has been doing for 3 years. Now when they yell at bush, our hands get slapped and we have to pay.
How about the tax credits coal producers get for spraying coal with diesel oil and calling it "synfuel?"
The company also owns two synthetic fuel production facilities, which use a patented and proprietary process developed by Covol Technologies. The production of synthetic fuel qualifies for federal tax credits created to encourage the production of fuel from non-conventional sources.
Shame that they aren't trying to get at the trillions of gallons of oil trapped in shales and sands out west like Canada is. 20 years ago we poo pooed the idea while canada invested in it and now they are looking to make a fortune.
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More developments from last week's article on the same subject.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02162004.shtml#Road
Maybe we should get rid of the motorcade and force them to deal with everymans traffic
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It seems that the FRA relaxing safety procedures isn't good enough...NIMBIES seem to want safety eliminated entirely. Heh, wanna bet they'll use the resulting accidents as examples of how the big bad railroads kill ppl and should be blocked?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02162004.shtml#Whistle
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02162004.shtml#FRA
My only thing is if there's a crossing gate failure, or even a malfunction along a blind curve. Seen flashing lights way out there one night, didn't see a train, knew there wasn't one coming, but there was a sharp curve, and a horn blast would be the only way to ID a train coming.
And culturally, aren't we accustomed to train horns?
Reminds me of the people around here who built a development of gated mansions right on the flight path of an international airport. Now they complain all the time and have a website set-up for them so they can tell what plane is coming from where. *boo hoo*
They can blow their horns all they want, I love 'em.
Got off the train in LA.... Asked the cab driver: "Where's the City?"
hehehehehe
Back in those days there wre but THREE round-trips on AT&SF's "San Diegan" services. And two of those three round trips were only three car trains with an F7 A-B set; the long train was usualyl 8-10 cars with F7 A-A-B or A-B-B.
Nowadays Amtrak runs ten round trips daily and Metrolink has a varied route structure on the line. Some trains run LA-Oceanside, some run only to Irvine or Laguna Niguel, then reverse direction and go out to Riverside, and some run LA-Riverside via Fullerton (in addition to LA-Riverside via Industry, LA-San Bernardino, LA-Montalvo, LA-Lancaster routes).
And then from San Diego to Oceanside, there is yet another commuter agency kown as "Coaster: running about eight or ten round trips a day.
A lot of the line is now double tracked, except for sections through Orange/Santa Ana, San Juan Capistrano-Oceanside, and over Miramar Grade in San Diego county. Not sure if all the double track work down there is complete, but they were adding quite a lot of it last time I rode the tracks to SD a couple months ago. It is certainly needed with all the commuter train traffic.
Oh, and the F59's pulling all the trains nowadays can haul a$$ too...0-90 MPH in no time flat.
But the F59s look so much cooler in San Diego's Coaster colors!
That's a great ride. Never ridden LA Metrolink, though. I'm looking forward to riding it this spring when I visit Anaheim.
Mark
Don't forget, if you'd like to get around to some of the rail facilities, keep in touch!
That is EXACTLY what buyers were told in a neighboring housing development that opened next to ours about six or seven years ago. If 54 passenger and 6 freights a day is a "small handful", I wonder what a BUSY line would consist of? (I know, something like LIRR Mineola...)
Funny thing is, when the people started the usual pissing and moaning about the trains AFTER they moved in next to tracks that were there since 1874, a small article appeared in the county newspaper. And someone must have somehow gotten that article sent to the railroad engineer's sign-on office; the horn blowing became incessant in the two weeks after the article appeared! Not just the usual 1500 feet preceeding the crossing with a - - 0 - either, it was more like Mexican wedding style horn blowing.
I went to a university that's soon to be the biggest in the nation, it's about 40-50 years old now too. There's a brand new strip of houses directly accross the street from it, and they got the nerve to complain and protest the building of student apartments!!
Why did you move accross from a college!!!!!!!!!!!
I swear, i don't understand where people get their money.
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I'll refrain from draging out the tired old Donner Party/Canibalism jokes I used earlier this season.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02162004.shtml#Blizzard
#3 West End Jeff
I predict a big increase in parking at Hamilton until service returns to normal.
#3 West End Jeff
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Heh, and we all know what the Governator does to the evil alien when its crawling away.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02162004.shtml#California
Converting the Montauk Line to subway usage would cost only a fraction of the billion dollars or so it would take to increase the capacity of the Queens Blvd line with extra tracks and/or stations.
(by the way, why does it cost so much to build subway lines in NYC, for ex. $1.67 billion to extend the Flushing to the Javitts Center?)
There is the 63rd Street capacity there to be used, but there is nothing to use if for unless the full length Second Avenue subway is built first.
At that point, attention will turn to Queens, but the only parts of Queens with enough population density to support a subway are those that already have it. And other areas have an idea that no subway = less density = higher class. Even in SE Queens, a middle-class Black area, the local Councilwoman was quoted as opposing the original plan to extend the E along one of the sets of LIRR tracks.
So the workable solution I see is this. Use two lanes of the LIE for a special express busway from Flushing Meadow Park west. The busway would have direct access to a "Port Authority Bus Terminal East" in Long Island City. This would be located directly over the Court Square of 21st Street stop on the G train. Connect the "G" tracks to the 63rd Street tunnel.
With this infrastrucure in place, the local Queens bus network in neighborhoods that lack subway service could be reorganized around the LIE busway. Buses would travel through these neighborhoods picking up passengers, then roll express on the busway to the bus terminal, a ride that on a bus-only ROW might only take 10 minutes.
From there, Queens residents would hop downstairs and board the G -- G service and the length of G trains would be increased to cover the demand. They would either ride on the G down Second Avenue, or change to other lines for other destinations -- those on the F, E and V could transfer in the other direction to get to Second Avenue. If the number of Gs required for Queens exceeded the number required in Brooklyn, the excess could turn at the Bedford/Nostrand interlocking.
This is how you could transform transit in Queens, adding 12-15 trains per hour vs. capacity and providing much faster access to Manhattan for places like Maspeth, Glendale, Whitestone, Fresh Meadows, etc. for the price of a short subway connection, a bus terminal, and the coversion of two highway lanes. But all this assumes that the full Second Avenue Subway is built first. So we can talk about this in 20 years.
Give private bus operators access to the new terminal and the LIRR might face some much-needed competition.
Nice idea, but you can't take two existing lanes away from the Expressway. Traffic on the expressway is disasterous enough without taking away lanes. Some sort of elevated busway would work, taking away current traffic lanes would not. Otherwise, nice idea.
In this case, I doubt they would serve a significant fraction of current drivers, so this probably isn't a good idea here. But in the general case, your objection is not sound.
My objection is sound because there is no way it would work on the LIE, which is the road in question. Unless current drivers have a major change in driving habits or patterns, a bus would serve very little of the people in question. I agree it may work on some other roads possibly, but certainly not the LIE in Queens. I don't think there are even many roads in the NY metro area that a busway replacing existing lanes would transport more people, without displacing the majority of current users (which if not using the current road would clog up another road worse as they still have to get where they are going).
Sure it would. Besides, we are talking about the Queens LIE.
A three lane highway is all that's needed in suburban areas, with the left lane for buses and MAYBE HOV only
False. How can you back-up a statement like that. That would basically be making the LIE a two lane expressway, with the third land being a "bus lane". Impossible. You are talking about downgrading the LIE to a capacity less than it was is the 60's when traffic levels were lower.
Sounds good to me. They will start leaving their cars at home and start using public transit like they should.
Elias
1. via BQE and Manhattan bridge with limited stops to downtown, loops downtown
2. Midtown tunnel, crosstown via 34th st to PABT, then up to GWBBT
3. 59th St bridge, uptown via east side making limited stops, crosstown via 125th, uptown to GWBBT
Then there's the other buses that travel via the other major roads within city limits, and then there's LIRR, NYCT, and the other private bus lines.
MAGLEV? Isn't that kinda expensive? Also, wouldn't such a high speed train be most useful over long distances?
ok , I fell better now , I couldn't hold that in .
I think you are ignoring several salient points.
First, the "enough population density" already includes significant feeder bus transportation at the most heavily used subway stops and especially the terminal stops - Main St, 179th and Jamaica Center.
Second, NYCT's operating costs for buses are significantly greater than those for heavy rail - 114% more per vehicle-revenue mile (174% more on a per passenger mile basis). The marginal operating costs for buses have been increasing whereas the actual maginal operating cost for heavy rail has gone down during the last decade.
Third, NYCT no longer receives additional revenue from bus-subway riders like it did before 1998.
Therefore extending existing lines beyond their existing terminals should reduce operating expenses without also reducing passenger revenue. The mixed mode use at both Jamaica terminals is 50,000 daily which would guarantee that new stations along the extension would be heavily patronized.
If one route were to be expanded, though, which one should it be? Which east-west route is most heavily used? Northern Blvd. which already has some access to LIRR? LIE? Union Tpke.? Hillside Ave?
I thought my previous post made this obvious. 179th and Jamaica Center have between 18,000 to 25,000 bus to subway transfers according to TA data. The Main St station has between 15,000 and 20,000 bus to subway transfers according to the same data. Therefore, an extension along the Hillside-Jamaica Ave corridor will capture the greatest number of existing bus passengers.
The only caveat is that the Q46 (Union Tpk) has the most subway to bus transfers 5,000 - 9,000. However, the name of the game is to reduce the total number of bus miles travelled, not necessarily provide the maximum number of walk to subway riders. Therefore, the Q46 statistic, while interesting, is irrelevant.
The institution of free transfers increased ridership dramatically, and if I recallcorrectly, increased revenue as well (due to dramaticaly expanded ridership). But this ridership would be best and more efficiently served by extending subway service toreplace bus service.
The operating cost of subway service (per revenue-car-mile) is dependent almost entirely on the level of service provided and not on the number of people who use it. The revenue from operations or the cost per passenge-mile is another story.
the cost of bus service would be lower on an exclusive ROW than on a local street with a stop every two blocks at a bus stops and, again, at a stoplight.
Not if the cost of maintaining the ROW were included in the bus' operating cost.
False, because the maintenance cost of the common ROW is borne by other than the bus service whereas the exclusive ROW becomes the TA's responsibility. Often, the "busway" construction costs approach a comparable rail project's capital costs without the distinctly lower rail operating costs. This has nothing to do with density of population.
Doesn't matter: A Bus has one employee per 50 passengers (more or less)
a Subway Train has two employees per 2000 passengers (more or less)
Elias
Apparently you've never been to Hollis, Rosedale, Jamaica Estates, Laurelton, Whitestone, Bayside, Fresh Meadows and Maspeth. They currently have enough population density to support subway service.
Besides, you're putting the cart before the horse. Subway lines create the population density to justify their existence, not vice versa.
Not so sure about some of those Queens areas you mentioned though. They appear to have a preponderance of single family and duplex homes. The bus to train transfers notwithstanding, I doubt it would be feasible to extend the Hillside Avenue line much past Hollis. Say, around 225th Street. For the next 20 years or so anyway.
The subway lines were built first. High density housing followed later.
Look at the pictures of the Brighton Line construction or the Flushing Line construction. They but the Flushing Line across a landscape that looks like our back yard does now: Two Miles to the next structrue (which happens to be a grain bin!)
I remember the Hillside Avenue Line, for my grandmother lived just off of it in a house on a quiet street. I remember those appartment buildings being built. The Subway was there LONG BEFORE there were apartments there.
And *THAT* is the NIMBY objection to extending the subway. Not only will it bring in high density housing, but the people moving into that housing will be the wrong color (what ever color that might be!) [Ofcourse they can't *say* *that* so they make up other excuses like "property values" going down. (Wrong again! they will go UP!... but that will not affect them adversely since they already *own* the property. (But that doesn't fit their picture of things because that was only an excuse and not a well thought reason in the first place.)
Elias
I'd venture to say that several neighborhoods in south-eastern Queens already have the necessary population density to justify subway service, which is why I proposed extending the Archer Ave line south along the Q85 bus route to Conduit Blvd. Since these neighborhoods are already almost exclusively minority, NIMBY issues may not be as great, unless they're worried about white "gentrificaion".
Yes, I have seen that already.
When I lived at Bergen and Bond, we occupied a single brownstone by our selves (we were renters, the owner had fixed the place up and then moved to california.) Other houses on our block were likewise recently converted to single family, and people complained that we were breaking up four-apartment houses to let just one family in, and driving up the rental rates at the same time. We were paying $550/month, which in the 70s was probably a little steep, but we thought it was a bargoon.
The demographics of the neighborhood did shift from Spanish to Yuppie.
Elias
I've seen that go on in Elmhurst, over the last 20-30 years. Screw the demographics, it's just gotten much more crowded over there. High density, as sound a basis for rail support as it might be, by itself is not automatically a greatly desired accomplishment. There are many blocks around there just stuffed with large multi-family homes located far from the subway lines.
As far as Hillside Avenue specifically, I don't see it as much of an urban planning goal to increase the population and transportation density along an older arterial road which is already performing sufficiently within the current medium-density landscape. I'm not too rigid on this; note that I did say that I favor the Hillside Ave subway being extended out to 225th St. I just don't think it needs to go further than that. There ARE areas of opportunity for such development. I feel that the LIRR Rockawy Branch should have been re-used, there should be another track added to the LIRR Mainline, and the Jamaica Avenue El should have 3 tracks out to the last stop, and it should be extended southeasterly too.
The thing about Queens is, the hodge podge street network. Not very conducive to corridor building. There are exceptions; Northern Boulevard is tailor-made for a long-distance subway line. Better than Hillside actually, as far as street design. (Are there any other roadways in the entire city that remain the same from the city limits right up to the East River?) But I can't think of many others...Linden Boulevard does go all the way from Elmont to Flatbush.
Brooklyn has a much better local street pattern. All I'm saying is, sometimes it ain't just NIMBY fervor. Lot of factors to consider.
That's true, but Linden Blvd is broken up in spots (eg Aquaduct Racetrack) in southeast Queens whereas Northern Blvd is more or less a striaght run from the East River to the City Line (well, actually Qns Plaza East). Linden Blvd is less suited to build a long distance subway on it than Northern Blvd. is.
Also, the LIE goes from the East River to the City Line. Not counting highways like the LIE, I think Northern Blvd is the one that best fits the above description at the beginning of this post.
Koi
Of course, no one is doing about it, whether it be the useless politicians or the callous residents.
So, Yes it could be done, and here is how:
1) Existing street level infrastructure remains in place for freight service.
2) an elevated two (or four) track structure could be built to accommodate LIRR-WTC service and/or some sort of subway service.
As far as subway service is concerned, Forgetaboutit: as things stand now there are other MAJOR priorities in the way of Queens routes than need consideration, (such as my Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway.
This being said... if a new line were built on Northern Boulevard (releving traffic on the (7) train, then the (R) train *could* be sent down the Flushing Line with a direct shot at the 60th Street Tunnel and the Stienway could then service several new Park-N-Ride facilities via access to the Montauk ROW.
: ) Elias
Ahem....
There is NO WAY that they could use the existing tracks for either subway or for increased (High density-high speed) LIRR traffic.
But the thing is: it *is* an ROW! the ROW *can* be built on. The freight line is left right were it is on the ground. A new (quiet) elevated structure can be built on that ROW allowing whatever traffic you want to put on it (either Subway or LIRR - or if a four track structure is built, then both)
For that matter, the new line can be built underground too. Cut and Cover would be only minimally disruptive to a freight operation, and there are few major utilities in the area.
The ROW has value, the track, sitting on the ground does not.
Elias
Most of the old stations were in middle-of-nowhere locations. I don't see how there would be significant ridership even with vastly improved service. Maybe some Richmond Hill and Glendale residents would find it a faster way to Midtown, but even that's doubtful given the relatively long walk to the 7 at LIC.
Also, I don't see what the problem is with the Long Island Rail Road. If they reopened Richmond Hill, the LIRR could provide speedy service for the area's residents to northwestern Queens. If they made CityTicket a full-time deal, I can see the LIRR making some money with little investment.
That is very true, and one of the reasons the LIRR had that ludicrous local service for so long. Notice they still have a revenue passenger train or two in each direction on the line.
I also agree completely with your second paragraph.
Suits me. I always assumed, though, that the inconvenience of the line's LIC terminal (as well as the infrequent and never-advertised service) was a factor in limiting demand for the service. There is an elevated turnout from the line to Sunnyside Yard--I wonder if, when Sunnyside Station is built, a revived Lower Montauk service could terminate there instead? Handier for the subways as well as local businesses.
Realistically, if the LIRR were to bring the service back to life, they'd have to invest at least in building some passenger platforms (except at Richmond Hill, as you note) and putting up some signs...
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Woah, that ain't good.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02162004.shtml#Missouri
Mark
Mark
Mark
I guess they dont' need highways. I was referring to road conditions, falling apart.
This sounds a lot like philadelphia and St. Pete. Except St. Pete does have a decent downtown and a itty bitty night spot. Nice houses and a Publix just moved in(our indicator for a sucessful livable downtown).
Anyway, when you're population drops that much, and if it's a REAL city(not subdivision or sprawl), traffic typically isn't that bad. You're on an infrastructure that's designed for twice of what's there. It's not too bad.
On the flip side, they built this beautiful new urbanist CITY east of Orlando. Made their own schools, food store, etc. I think it was supposed to have 30,000 houses when it's done, somewhere in that range. There was nothing in the region before. You know what happens when you do something like that but only have one entrance/exit that leads to a 2-lane country road?
People are just now complaining about. No duh. Those people really need some new highways, and their getting them, for billions.
Mark
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Great...another tax to put railroads at a disadvantage. If the railroads are taxed for their RoW's then bussinesses with vehicles should pay a tax for the state's roads.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02162004.shtml#Virginia
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I can't believe they are actually considering this cockamamey plan. It will totally fuck up subway service. Who said there wasn't a Westchester/Nassau bias in Albany. Got forbid the upper crust have to mix with the chuds on their way downtown.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02162004.shtml#NewYork
...that must have been a serious joint they were smoking when they came up with that one.
The project "has little support except among downtown business groups and the political leaders they have enlisted."
"the JFK-downtown market is likely to be quite small, and the downtown LIRR market is dubious at best."
"The Long Island Rail Road has never identified a downtown link as a need, and the Long Island business community says it has a half-dozen big priorities it would place ahead of this project."
The TSTC is crying "wolf." This isn't even technically feasible.
It will totally fuck up subway service. Who said there wasn't a Westchester/Nassau bias in Albany. Got forbid the upper crust have to mix with the chuds on their way downtown.
Can we possibly take a rest from the barricada demagoguery? This is a plan for downtown business, not Long Islanders. If there are big bucks to spent on Long Island transportation, there are lots of opportunities within Nassau and Suffolk Counties.
What do ya think?
Hell, don't take it away...build a four track MNRR tunnel UNDER the Lex down the Avenue South...local AND express stops..., all the way down...into Flatbush Terminal! Talk about your "loop-de-loop"! It would make the PATH Sixth Avenue line's duplication of the Sixth Avenue IND local/express trackage pale in comparison. And make a new LIRR station under Park and 33rd, put a stop on the MNRR line there too, making yet another intra-regional rail transfer.
Wheeeeeeeeeee Doggieeeeeeeees.
A very good alternative to it however, and much better and cheaper than ditzing with the cranberry tunnel, is to turn a new line to the south,
following the old West Side Highway down to WTC. You can fit about six tracks and three platforms under the Joe DiMagio at WTC.
Actually a train could leave from platform 21 bending north into the yard, and then reverse south, under the existing tracks to WTC.
It may be complicated, but the trains can move quickly enough, and it would be better than putting the LIRR in the Cranberry. ANYTHING is better than that!
If the Manhattan — LIRR Airtrain plan were eligible for FEMA funding, it would have to go to downtown. But nearly all that $4.55 billion is already spoken for, and this project must be funded from other sources; therefore it need not go downtown.
The study portion of the project (i.e., what's going on right now) is being funded out of the $4.55 billion, and it has to be spent on the LIRR/JFK link to downtown.
Funny thing about reaching downtown manhattan, they want to take away subway lines or tunnel into a impossible area of clusted subway tunnels in the downtown area, but if they had any brains they would upgrade the high line and pick up real estate to finish. by the time they do these other adventures the cost for the high line and real estate just might be alot cheaper and have a line already on the west side of town. go figure
The High Line doesn't go downtown, or to Brooklyn or Queens. Actually, it doesn't go anywhere. So, whatever may be the merits of converting the High Line to passenger rail, it has nothing whatever to do with improving service between L.I./JFK/Downtown.
Honestly, I'd rather see the 7 take the high line, and LIRR take west side highway, but oh well.
There's thinking out of the box, and then there's a pipe dream. I have as much chance of being elected the next Pope as the High Line has of being extended to Lower Manhattan.
If you bring LIRR trains into lower manhattan, you had better have a plan on where to put them. You cannot run them up to 207th Street jsut to turn them. You cannot kill all 8th Ave Exp service to make an LIRR yard out of the Exp Tracks.
It is STOOPIT STOOPIT STOOPIT!
FORGETABOUTIT!
My Plan on the other hand provides LIRR and NJT access to WTC. It provides WTC access to LaGuardia and Newark Airports, AND it provides a freight coneection between NJ and LI.
AND IT AIN't ALL THAT DAMN EXPENSIVE.... it is all deep bore TBM work.
Elias
If they're going to send the LIRR downtown, they'll need a new tunnel--disrupting the IND or BMT is out of the question. But if they're building one anyway, it makes a lot more sense to go via Flatbush.
Or..better yet--Forget the whole thing! The LIRR has perfectly fine connections to downtown via the subway from Flatbush Ave.
:-) Andrew
No, it really wouldn't.
LIRR in that part of Brooklyn is fairly near the surface, and so are the other lines. You would have to back off (east) from the terminal to garner the depth needed to go under all of the existing subway routes, both in Brooklyn and in Manhattan.
Look again at my routing: It does not clash with as many existing routes, and where it does, ie at WTC, it is already well below the existing PATH route.
You say it goes out of the way: it really does not, the Atlantic route swings well to the south, this one swings a bit to the north. Another mile maybe, but nothing more than that. Ofset that against the much higher speeds possible on the new ROW, and then add the conections to La Guardia , not possible with the Atlantic route, and finally, add freight access to the sunnyside yards, access to both Long Island and to Conneticut, including the fact that these freight trains will arrive running within existing freight patterns rather than against them, and you really have to call it a day.
But in any event, you do agree that LIRR needs (if it needs that connection at all) its own tunnel, and that it also needs a place to store trains (ie New Jersey) once they have gotten into manhattan.
Also look at my NJT connection. They too will need a place to store or turn trains, and is not Sunnyside better equiped for this than Brooklyn. They would have to go all the way to Jamaica to find a yard!
And from a Sunnyside yard, NJT equipment could be sent to either NYP or to WTC.
I think my plan is good, and thier plan SUCKS!
: ) Elias
With infininte money, yours is certainly better than the other options.
You are going to have to get used to bigger and bigger numbers.
Ite Iraq war costs us over 87 Billion Dollars, and the govt thought that was small peanuts. US education is over 400 Billion / year.
Give me a price for it: Heck be extravagant, call it $50B (incl finance charges). That's only $1B/Yr over the life of a 50 year bond.
The toll for a truck to use the Lincoln Tunnel is $36.
Suppose a toll of $50. per freight car to use the tunnel is levied.
For a 100 car train, this is $5000.
Suppose that only four such trains use the tunnel each day ($20,000)
Every day of the year. Thats $7,300,000 / year just on freight tolls.
I betcha the Lincoln Tunnel makes tons more that that on truck traffic per year.
All this on operations that are not really supposed to be money makers anyway. (Who ever heard of passenger rail paing its own way.)
But one of th other aspects to my plan is the closing of the Manhattan CBD to privately owned automobiles. That will move a lot more traffic onto the rail system. And the system has to be in place first.
Yes it is expensive... but doing nothing? Waiting for the Fed?
Hey, the Alternative is choking.
Elias
You make some interesting arguments, but politicians who talk like that generally don't get elected. Consequently, there aren't many people in power who think we have $50bn to spend on this project. Hence, there are only two possibilities: 1) The project will get done on a far more modest scale, for a far more modest sum of money; or, 2) The project won't get done at all.
Go ahead and fight for a change to the political climate, but in the meantime the battle must be fought on the scale of what is achievable today. Meantime, your plan can't realistically be talked about in the same breath as these others, because it requires an investment an order of magnitude higher than what anybody else is proposing.
As a monk, I cannot run for office, according to church law. Pope said so.
: ) Elias
That's only another reason why the plan is STOOPIT!
Why don't you read it first? Also, learn to spell "stupid."
The TSTC article in question is here.
I have re-read all your posts on this subject, and in this posting you said "I didn't find it all that convincing — starting with the fact that whoever wrote it, like some journalists, doesn't even seem to have read the proposal, and hence erroneously describes it as "LIRR-Downtown Options." I could go on to list the other factual errors in this report, but why bother? "
Apart from the misleading title, the article said that the Montague St. option would displace subway trips, which seems wrong.
But what about the statements that the JFK-downtown market is likely to be quite small, and that the Long Island Rail Road has never identified a downtown link as a need? Are these "factual misstatements"?
I believe they are. For the first statement, the article cites a Report by the Regional Plan Association, but the TSTC folks have got it backwards. RPA favors improving airport and LIRR connections to downtown. For instance, on the RPA's transportation page is this comment:
RPA's 1999 proposal for a 4-borough Second Avenue Subway has regained momentum as an alternative to provide access to Lower Manhattan from JFK Airport and the Long Island Railroad.
So, RPA isn't against airport/LIRR access to downtown at all. Their concern is that the right option gets chosen (not, for instance, the Brookfield proposal). Another document on their website lists nine different downtown rail options, and several of them are rated quite favorably. So much for the TSTC article's principal source.
It may well be true that the LIRR "has never identified a downtown link as a need," but no source is given for this piece of information. Given the other errors in the article, I am not inclined to believe them without seeing it backed up.
Click
Here For The Story
N Broadway Line
How much more will it cost to make the tunnels able to handle LIRR cars?
Won't it be cheaper to build new tunnels rather than modify the present tunnels? This will leave the subways alone.
Reality-check time: If any of these services get built, new rolling stock will be required. My guess is they'll buy trains that fit in the tunnels. They might not be as smart as Einstein, but this much they can figure out.
I doubt it. After all, the M7's are brand new.I doubt LIRR will wanna order a whole new batch of cars.
Somewhere or other passengers are going to have to change trains for this new service. Why not just switch to subway trains?
1. Stephen Baumann and Train Dude recently uncovered that truck placement is not the problem.
2. 75' would be ideal, as it is closer to actual LIRR car lengths.
What do they plan for 'A' service? Or have I missed this part of the discussion.
Brookfield, a downtown landlord, proposed routing airport trains through the Cranberry tunnel, and in their proposal the C would shift to the Rutgers tunnel. The A would still go through the Cranberry.
They should stick to building castles in the sky!
: ) Elias
Those bridges are now maxed out for cars, and it would cause traffic nightmares if the car lanes were taken away.
I'm also not sure those bridges can accommodate any more rail service without being dangerously over-stressed. They did in the past, but time has not treated the bridges kindly--especially the MannyB and the WillyB.
Lastly, you don't have a complete plan until you figure out how the trains approach the bridge, and where they go on the other side.
They could ride the train.
See the effect of Midtown Direct for an example.
I am afraid that the bridges will not support more trains, but they sures as little beans will support all of the LRV that you can put up there, and with cars GONE from the CBD, you will have no problem putting in dedicated LRV lanes.
Since these LRVs are not long-distance vehicles, but only Mid-town and nearby Brooklyn and LIC circulators, they well of course be free. The assumption being that you already paid a bus or subway fare to get into the city anyway, and because with the option of private cars removed, we would need a good way to circulate people in the CBD.
I suspect that the city would SAVE mucho bucks with free LRVs over traffic enforcement, parking enforcement, and street maintenance over automobile traffic.
Yes, I know, the TRUCKS still gotta be there, but things will move more freely with the cars gone and the traffic patterns tamed.
Elias
NO NO NO. I'm a lover of mass transit. I love light rail, subway, and trolleys, however there is no way I would think it was a brilliant idea to close the bridges and the CBD of Manhattan to cars.
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Odd, MNRR engineers aren't a part of the BLE, a union designed specifically for them.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02162004.shtml#M-N
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That's what you get for having a letter specific constitution...it makes it really hard to adapt to the times.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02162004.shtml#NH
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Man, Boston just keeps sucking down the Federal Transportation dollars.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02162004.shtml#Blue
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Sounds nice, but I am sure they'll have crappy signals.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02162004.shtml#North
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Odd, Tev Aviv is not commercially feasable yet South Jersey is.....
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02162004.shtml#Bombardier
The urban agglomeration of Tel Aviv – Jaffa has a population of three million. Many smaller cities have or are building light rail.
Another reason that building light rail in Israel may be problematic is the Histadrut, the Israeli labor federation. This organization is extremely powerful, and will strike at the drop of a hat for any reason and against any or all industries, with no regard to the economic damage they cause. Part of this is because the head of the Histadrut, Amir Peretz, is also the head of a political party in the Kneset, the Israeli parliament, and has political ambitions that he feels a populist message will advance. As an example of the power of the Histadrut to shut down industry, towards the end of last year, a strike was declared at all Israeli ports, making it impossible to load or unload goods from ships, and causing factories and projects that were dependent on the products being imported to shut down. Based on such an uncertain climate, while I am disappointed that Bombardier pulled out, I can't say I'm surprised.
Regards,
subfan (an ex-New Yorker now living in Israel)
With Issael being basically the 51 state of the US in terms of direct aid, subsidies, loan guarantees and easy access to purchasers of Isarael Bonds, why should they have to make any tough decisions?
subfan
Subfan, I really don't know what his statement was about because I don't waste my time reading any of his posts, but if you do discuss anything with him just be prepared to have him call you ignorant if you say anything he disagrees with.
subfan
Tel Aviv has a lot of residents who depend on "Dan," the municipal bus service, as much as people in NYC depend on subways and buses. The density is there and the ridership is there. The investment capital isn't, because of stupidity in national government.
Israel is a nuclear power, whichhas an effective nuclear deterrent, and there is no longer any danger of conventional warfare overwhelming the state.
The terrorism/guerilla war threat is there, but evben Ariel Sharon has expressed publicly that the current strategy doesn't work.
Change the approacxh, reduce military expenditures, reduce the wear and tear and loss of morale and discipline in the ranks, establish a Palestinian state with clear boundaries, and start redirecting funds to domestic services, infrastructure and economic development (and wean Israel off of this counter-productive diet of US handouts).
One concern is that the change in demographics makes a change in strategy inevitable.
At least three dozen army officers have gone on record as saying that the current policy is immoral. I myself do not believe in deserting or going AWOL or other blatantly illegal act, but I do believe Israel owes it to its citizens to re-examine its entire approach in light of these valid criticisms.
As noted in my original e-mail in another branch of this thread, I am currently a resident in Israel, and can assure you that while their are a number of Israelis who share your opinion, a large majority do not, as evidenced by the decimating losses suffered by Labor and Meretz - oops, I mean Yahad - in the 2002 elections. Your comments on the nuclear deterrent are fallacious, as pointed out by none other than Iran's "Supreme Leader", who said that the Islamic world could afford to suffer several million casualties from a nuclear war, as it consists of nearly one billion people, while Israel, with a total population of six million or so, could not. When you're dealing with an enemy who is willing to take mass casualties of that sort (and shows no signs of willing to live in peace with Israel), you need to spend significant amounts on weapons rather than mass transit improvements (there, getting it back on topic).
BTW, I notice that the 9/11 hijackers don't seem to have been deterred by the US's possession of nuclear weapons, were they?
subfan
On a transit note - Israel is now working on a prototype bomb dedector that will be able to be installed on buses to scan passengers as they board. It's an ingenious technology, but it's a shame that scarce transit resources have to be spent combating the scum that try to destroy innocent lives instead of on necessary infrastructure.
subfan
subfan
While that sounds like it might work (and besides, I'm hungry! :-), it probably won't.
A cruel, but more workable solution is to torture and execute the families of suicide bombers.
The ultimate solution is to convert people from their primitive supernatural religions to the Church of Commerce practiced by people in the West.
Pigs, I share your sentiments. History is replete with holy wars, Crusades, Jihads, and all kinds of religious atrocities.
LOL! That's great. Pigs, you hit it on the head with that one! It's precious.
Thank you for that insightful post. Please note that aside from one post where I made the same point that you did (with an offer to take the conversation off-line), each of my posts has contained transit-related material.
subfan
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But it still dosen't solve the problem of infrastructure seperation.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02162004.shtml#Eurotunnelgets
The British railways cannot handle continental freight cars, so they would have to be transferred to British roads.
The question of "loading gauges" (heights and widths) is not a simple one, as there are several different standards in use.
The main European standards are UIC A, UIC B, UIC B+ and UIC C. They are all the same width but have different heights.
Britain does not comply with any UIC standard, as the UIC width would be too wide for British station platforms. If the platforms were narrowed to let freight trains pass, they would be too narrow for passenger trains (mind the gap!).
The high speed continental TGV lines are built to the highest standard, which is UIC C. The Channel Tunnel itself exceeds UIC C, and the Channel Tunnel Rail Link is being built to the UIC C standard. Fortunately it has very few stations.
"The Great Central Railway (GCR), which opened in 1899, was the last mainline to be built in the country. The brainchild of Sir Edward Watkin, the GCR was intended to be the central element in a network, connecting the industrial heartland of the country (Sheffield), via the Midlands, London and hence to the continent by a channel tunnel. Built for speed, with gentle gradients, it had a generous loading gauge, to match the hoped for larger continental wagons."
The GCR ran from Sheffield to London, but never reached the channel. It was closed in 1969 as part of the "Beeching axe".
See also History of the Great Central Railway.
I'm afraid that is a popular myth. The GC Main Line had many wonderful features (including no level crossings and gentle gradients and curves), but the Berne gauge was not one of them. If it had, there'd either be a huge gap from the express to the platform at Leicester Central or it would demolish the platform at Sheffield.
In that case the Channel Tunnel Rail Link is the first line in Britain to comply with the Berne European loading gauge standard. And its station platforms must be kept separate from those used by all other lines.
I'm not sure how Eurostars manage on the existing Southern Region though - or up to Leeds City for that matter.
Good question! They have separate platforms at Waterloo, but why don't they bump into platforms elsewhere along the line.
British station platforms are uncommonly high, being just below train floor level, unlike continental platforms.
British and continental passenger trains are about the same width (2825 mm), as are British freight trains.
Continental (UIC standard) freight cars are much wider, at 3150 mm. And that maximum width extends down to 400 mm of track level, far below British platforms, with which they would collide, but (I presume) above continental platform heights.
References (with illustrations):
Modern Railways, April 1992.
European Railway Loading Gauges.
Railway Technical Web Pages, Train Stations.
It has been announced that the Channel Tunnel Rail Link (CTRL), when completed through to St Pancras, will carry new express commuter servises from Kent as well as the Eurostars from France. I haven't seen any report on the point, but I assume that would necessitate new rolling stock being built. The CTRL itself has very few stations, so presumably these commuter trains would run on the ordinary lines as far as Ashford and then take the new line for a very fast run to London. In which case they would have to clear the platform edges at old stations; and they'd need to be dual-mode (third rail and overhead line) as well.
Sorry to be the cause of confusion, but I posted two contradictory messages. What I now think (see here) is that continental passenger trains can run in the UK, unlike continental freight trains which would collide with the high UK platforms.
I am pretty sure that all passenger trains have about the same width of 2825 mm, and they do not collide with any platforms.
As Rail Blue pointed out, Eurostars run through the London suburbs without colliding with platforms along the way.
The only width problems involve the 3150 mm wide continental freight wagons, which would collide with the high British platforms (good for shorter dwell times). Many of those wide continental freight wagons are also too high for most British lines.
The new "Central Railway", if built, would put into effect the intentions of the old Great Central Railway (1899 – 1969).
It would carry up to eight 1500 metre freight trains per hour, made up of truck trailers, between the UK and mainland Europe.
The plan shows that the line would extend from Liverpool via Sheffield passing west of London to Lille in northern France.
For a summary of this £4.7 billion plan, see Central Railway – Project Overview.
The planned line would in fact utilise much of the old GCR right-of-way. However, 35 years after its closure much of the ROW has been disposed of, so getting it back would not be straightforward. And don't forget the NIMBYs.... I have friends who live near the proposed line, and their pleasant, quiet, rural backwater will rise up in revolt aginst this noisy freight railway.
IINM, the main obstacle (on both counts) is a nature reserve on the South side of Rugby.
Politics aside, it would be totally doable to get to Whetstone, and if demolishing four or so buildings (mainly of the shed park variety, but also part of De Montfort University) and a dual carriageway bridge isn't too much, Leicester Central. North of there, there are a couple more shed parks on the line, then the preservationists get in the way, then there's the Snottingham problem...
Oh well, one day.. [cue Welsh accent] the train now standing at platform 2 is for Newcastle Central; calling at Neath, Port Talbot Parkway, Bridgend, Cardiff Central, Newport, Bristol Parkway, Swindon, Oxford, Banbury, Rugby Central, Leicester Central, Loughborough Central, Nottingham Victoria, Sheffield Victoria, Penistone, Huddersfield, Leeds City, York, Darlington, Durham, Chester-le-Street and Newcastle Central.
Yet the proposed Central Railway would run along existing lines for much of its route, and pass through many existing passenger stations. And it would carry both freight and passenger trains, having its own freight and passenger stations.
But for the line to carry 3150 mm wide continental standard freight cars, existing station platforms would have to be lowered to continental levels. Passengers would have to step up to passenger trains rather than use existing high platforms.
This problem is not mentioned in the Central Railway Route Description, which says: "Central Railway plc proposes a railway capable of carrying lorries, lorry trailers and containers on standard rail wagons, as well as any UK or continental freight or passenger train. The railway will have overhead electrification and height clearances under bridges and tunnels of approximately six metres (or twenty feet), compared to clearances of a little over four metres (or fourteen feet), which are common on UK and French railways. On existing or dismantled railways therefore construction work will mainly involve raising bridges or lowering trackbeds, installing new signalling and electrification, and reinstating or upgrading a two-track railway. In places additional tracks may be provided to meet capacity needs of other passenger and freight rail operators."
The Central Railway Action Group (NatCRAG), an advocacy group opposed to the plan, says in NatCRAG Update on Central Railway January 2003: "The SRA is also concerned about the changes to bridges, platforms and bridges to accommodate the larger loading gauge of CR,"
DEPARTMENT FOR TRANSPORT
GOVERNMENT ANNOUNCES DECISION ON THE CENTRAL RAILWAY FREIGHT LINE
Transport Minister Kim Howells today announced that the Government has decided not to support Central Railway's proposal for a Parliamentary Bill for a dedicated freight line that would link the Channel Tunnel with the North West of England.
The Bill would have sought powers to build a £10 billion freight line that would have run from the Channel Tunnel to Liverpool, routed south of London and via Sheffield.
The main reason for the decision is that Central Railway has not demonstrated to the Government's satisfaction that it would be able to gain the necessary financial backing to build and run the line.
Central Railway have argued that the line could be totally privately funded. But if the project ran into difficulties the Government would come under intense pressure to intervene with taxpayers' money.
Kim Howells made clear that the Government is committed to development of the rail network. Improvements to the West Coast Main Line and the building of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link will both provide substantial extra capacity for freight traffic and will support further investment and regeneration in the South East and North West.
In a statement to the House of Commons, Kim Howells said:
"While such a scheme could make a contribution to increasing the carriage of freight by rail, Central Railway has not substantiated the likely financeability of the proposals.
"The promoters have received expressions of interest from a number of possible debt providers but these are generally substantially caveated. Neither have they demonstrated that the significant amount of equity finance would be forthcoming.
"Central Railway has claimed that no call would be made on the public purse. However once the Government agreed to promote a Bill, inescapably it would be taken to be backing the project.
"Should initial finance not be raised, or the project run into financial difficulty once work was under way, the Government of the day could not escape intense pressure to intervene. The Government has therefore concluded that it cannot promote a Bill against such risks."
A copy of the full written statement is available on the Department's website.
Bloody Frogs! Let's get some nice 45ft wooden coal wagons with GW on the side and run them into the Gare du Nord (hey, we could be charitable and donate them a Deltic so they can see how to run a railway without all that ugly OHLE) and cover it in Welsh anthracite.
IINM, the Central Railway has a problem in trying to add a load of new trains through Leicester (London Road) station. It's only 4 tracks under the London Road, leading to a 4 platform station (with HUGE dwell times - some up to ten minutes). There's also a reoccupation time issue, particularly in the Southbound direction. Perhaps the line through Leicester Central should re-open (along with the real Master Cutler :-D).
And another problem is — loading gauge! Wide continental wagons would have to bypass any station with high UK platforms.
Perhaps the line through Leicester Central should re-open (along with the real Master Cutler :-D).
IIRC "Master Cutler" used to run from Marylebone to Sheffield, hence the name (Sheffield, cutlery), but I don't remember its route through Leicester. There is an Ordnance Survey map of each section of the proposed line on the Central Railway site. In the Leicester section, "Central Railway proposes to upgrade the eastern two tracks, or track spaces, on the four-track Midland Mainline formation, including the provision of additional capacity through Leicester Station".
On the subject of freight rail, in 2001 the BBC reported that the SRA had announced a £4 billion plan to dramatically increase the amount of freight transported by rail, and I am wondering what became of that plan.
And I can scarcely imagine them fitting under the London Rd either - the bridge isn't very high and the width and the angle necessitate a really awful kink and a speed restriction (IINM it's 15mph).
In the Leicester section, "Central Railway proposes to upgrade the eastern two tracks, or track spaces, on the four-track Midland Mainline formation, including the provision of additional capacity through Leicester Station".
They would still hit a problem at the London Rd bridge perhaps they mean to rip it out and somehow prop up the station whilst widening it to 6 tracks with more favourable geometry. And I hope they're intending on installing a flyover at Wigston Junction!
IIRC "Master Cutler" used to run from Marylebone to Sheffield, hence the name (Sheffield, cutlery), but I don't remember its route through Leicester.
It was (1957):
1818 London Marylebone
2008 Rugby Central
2031 Leicester Central (a)
2036 Leicester Central (d)
2101 Nottingham Victoria (a)
2102 Nottingham Victoria (d)
2200 Sheffield Victoria (a)
2227 Sheffield Victoria (d)
2242 Penistone
2312 Guide Bridge (Ashton)
2322 Manchester London Rd
Nowadays (2004) it is:
1715 London St Pancras
1824 Leicester London Rd
1850 Derby Midland
1913 Chesterfield Midland
1931 Sheffield Midland
1958 Doncaster
2015 Wakefield Westgate
2031 Leeds City
It has of course been combined with the 1957 South Yorkshireman:
1650 London Marylebone
1900 Leicester Central (a)
1904 Leicester Central (d)
1932 Nottingham Victoria (a)
1935 Nottingham Victoria (d)
2037 Sheffield Victoria (a)
2043 Sheffield Victoria (d)
2106 Penistone [portion for Huddersfield and Bradford Exchange detatches]
2200 Guide Bridge (Ashton)
2209 Manchester London Rd
If London Road passes over the station, I don't know if they could raise the road bridge or add bypass freight rail tracks.
There is a controversy over the Central Railway alignment at Rugby. The "preferred alternative" passes to the east of Rugby via a freight station at the M1 & M6 merge point, but some would prefer the line to use the existing cutting through Rugby.
Those comparisons with the 1957 Master Cutler are impressive. The new one is a helluva lot faster, and about twice as fast between London and Leicester. The Midland route is a bit shorter, but I think more importantly the new train moves faster.
The 27 minute stop at Sheffield is a reminder of more leisurely times!
It runs along the frontage of the Midland Railway's buildings of 1892, which span the tracks.
or add bypass freight rail tracks.
Would be a tough job, the line is totally hemmed in in a cutting with streets both sides (Waterloo Way on the west side, Regent St on the east). Branching off before Regent St starts lands you tunnelling under a very fashionable 18th Century part of Leicester!
Those comparisons with the 1957 Master Cutler are impressive. The new one is a helluva lot faster, and about twice as fast between London and Leicester. The Midland route is a bit shorter, but I think more importantly the new train moves faster.
It's mainly the speed of modern trains - compare:
1957 - Marylebone to Aylesbury (via High Wycombe), non-stop: 66 minutes
2004 - Marylebone to Aylesbury (via High Wycombe), ten intermediate stops: 40 minutes
Indeed:
2004 - Marylebone to Aylesbury (via Amersham), all stops: 62 minutes
Realisticly, with Class 168s, somewhere between 1/3 and ½ can be shaved off the 1957 times. This would let a modern Master Cutler take between 66 and 89 minutes between London and Leicester, which is pretty much the same as the HSTs and 170s on the Midland (they take between 68 and 111 minutes). I'll have to go into the library tomorrow and look at the old timetables to see which line was quicker when both were open. I suspect there was not a lot in it: the Midland is shorter, but the Great Central has much easier curves and gradients.
The 27 minute stop at Sheffield is a reminder of more leisurely times!
Yes - there are only 20 minute stops around these days (like at Rugby on the 2345 Euston to Wolverhampton).
Now I understand the Leicester problem! You can't raise the bridge or add tracks, but you might be able to lower the tracks.
*********************************************************************
Well so goes the last non-bridge interlocking in the state od Texas, tis a sad day for everyone.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02162004.shtml#Tower
#3 West End Jeff
I would like to see the lower level (J) extended to Archer/Merrick, because that would fully restore service previously provided by the Jamaica El decades ago. And Merrick is a busy thoroughfare, and that site is very appropriate for a subway station.
1) Isn't Green Acres Mall in Nassau County?
2) The E never meets up with the J/Z. They are on two separate levels.
3) What are you talking about 4-track trunk line? You proposal makes no sense. There are only two tracks for the entire extent of the J/Z. The Z is a skip-stop, not a true express. So where is the "J as the express" thing coming from? Also, why bother making the Z a real express if it's just going to become skip-stop anyway (and therefore merge with the J)? Running four-track service from Green Acres, with the J/Z skip-stop and the E as the real express would be the only idea to make any sense. But of course the point is moot.
It sure is. Maybe the terminal would be real close to the border like the 2 train.
2) The E never meets up with the J/Z. They are on two separate levels.
But if they were to extend the line they could easily put them on the same level.
3) What are you talking about 4-track trunk line? You proposal makes no sense. There are only two tracks for the entire extent of the J/Z.
Actually the J/Z is 3 tracks between Marcy and Brodway Junction. But you have to read into what he is saying. The J/Z line is 2 tracks on the lower level, and the E is 2 on the upper level. All they have to do is level them out and pull a "Jay Street". Put one of those line's tracks in the middle, and have the other line's tracks flank them. One could become the continuing express and the flanked tracks would be the local.
The Z is a skip-stop, not a true express. So where is the "J as the express" thing coming from? Also, why bother making the Z a real express if it's just going to become skip-stop anyway (and therefore merge with the J)? Running four-track service from Green Acres, with the J/Z skip-stop and the E as the real express would be the only idea to make any sense. But of course the point is moot.
I think a 4 track line to Green Acres sounds like excessive service. Im assuming his reasoning is that since the E is express for most of Queens Blvd, why not make it local for the rest of the trip, while making the J/Z which is local in all of Queens the express till the end.
The J/Z run express for 3 stops while the M runs local (check the maps), so some sections have more than 2 tracks. So the J/Z has some express service and it even runs express middays(J only)
Not exactly: the tracks curve to the right, and end on 160 St near Liberty Av, as part of the planning for a long-ago proposed connection to the nearby LIRR tracks, and a run out to Springfield Gardens.
In addition, if an extension to 168 was built, what would happen to the major transit hub at Parsons/Archer? There was SUCH a cry and stamping of feet, when southeast Queens buses were rerouted away from the 169-Hillside hub to Parsons/Archer, but I imagine those upset have gotten over it, by now. : - )
john
The complaints came from businesses on Jamaica Avenue and behind the 165th Street Bus Terminal. They convinced then-Senator Al D'Amato to force DOT to convert Jamaica and Archer to a one-way pair, so that the buses (and thus riders) would be forced to pass their stores. That fiasco lasted less than a year.
D'Amato was Senator from January 3, 1981 until January 3, 1999.
The Archer Avenue didn't exist until December 11, 1988.
For this or any type of project, it requires a lot of planning, coordination and the setting aside of funds (assuming those funds don't have to go to any higher priority issues. After that, you have to hold these 'Environmental Impact Study' things that always take a long time, and then you have to discuss the issues with the residents, the politicians, the commerce districts, the businesses...and that's not the end of it!
You have the actual construction. If it's not TBM you're going for, oh boy, cut and cover!
Also I would like to see both levels extended for a short distance so that there could be a connection for equipment between the J and the E. This would be a tremendous help in rerouting equipment in the case of emergencies. Would give the dispatchers a lot more flexibility in moving equipment around.
I guess the TA found out that they needed a connection when the Willimaburg Bridge was closed for reconstruction and they found that part of the system was completely isolated - duh.
Why? The trains were originally headed in completely different directions at that point (E originally to southeast Queens, the J continuing east along Archer). They are served by different yards (Jamaica Yard, and East New York if I recall the J - correct me if I'm wrong).
I agree it's a good idea but it's not absolutely essential.
Because the E already carries crush loads at rush hour and substantial loads at other times. The capacity in the Queens Blvd. express is maxed out.
You'd need to build additional capacity into Manhattan. For example, if you built the bypass track to Forest Hills, maybe you could extend that via the E tracks to JFK, on the grounds that the train would not have to pick anybody up west of Forest Hills, and you'd have two peak-direction express tracks instead of just one, sufficient to host an additional service.
I haven't put what I'd do to the J/Z lines on there yet - I'll get round to that soon (for those who can't wait: extension via Archer Av, Jamaica Av (2 tracks), then a large single track loop under Hollis Av, Hempstead Av, the Belmont Pk LIRR (with a 2 track "terminal" with an island platform), and Jamaica Av back towards Jamaica, ENY and Manhattan).
Thank You
Not true. There was a fair amount of retail there at one time and there is a lot of potential for redevelopment given subway service to replace what the old El provided. You're looking at this much too narrowly.
You also forgot that the demand is not one way only. Subway passengers arriving in the area will frequent the business which serves them. Housing and business key on subway development. A half-mile extension will revityalize both in the directioon of the extension.
It will not work for two reasons
1-AM passengers will enter the train at 168th Street to go to Manhattan.Reason first stop
2-PM passengers will exit the train at Jamaica Center in order to board the buses where they start and trust me they will originate at Jamaica Center. In addition Limited Stop service will by pass the area and i doubt that the TA will change it.
Since money is tight it can be used for other uses: #7 extenstion,2nd Avenue
Thank You
From what I've seen of the area, I might give more priority now to an F train extension under Hillside to Springfield Blvd., or an E train extension under Guy Brewer Blvd. to Rochdale Village.
As for the upper level (E), I'd follow the original plan to extend it to southeast Queens via the LIRR Atlantic branch (or via Merrick or Brewer).
Now to find some funding....
#3 West End Jeff
6 Av L->6 Av X (to terminate at 2 Av)
8 Av L->6 Av L (for Smith/Culver)
8 Av L->6 Av L (for Smith/Culver)
Easy!
Elias
Track maps are Post-Chrystie
Pre Chrystie lead the 6 Av X tracks from W4 to 2 Av.
If you look at Franklin juction, you'll see, that if a express is
running to the Flatbush branch it cross the local track, so it's
not possible to run at the same time a local to the New Lots branch.
This is what i mean with "crosswitching". South of W4 the 8 Av L and
6 Av L can change their tracks without blocking each other.
(http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/franklin.gif)
Yes. The E Train did that at one stage (before the 6th Av Line even existed).
6 Av L->6 Av X (to terminate at 2 Av)
Yes (at least sort of). Before Chrystie, the E train switched onto the 6th Av Lcl at W4th St and terminated on the current express tracks at Broadway - Lafayette St. Presumably, had demand been there, nothing would have obstructed these trains from proceeding the extra stop to 2nd Av.
Those of you who complain about having to stand in line each time you buy a SingleRide, just think how less often you'd have to stand in line if everybody bought their rides six at a time: not only would you only have to use the MVM one-sixth as often, but the lines themselves would be shorter, too. And one of those six rides would be free!
Would you believe over 700 folks a month go into the subway, buy that ticket, then use it to ride a QSC bus ? Talk about dumb ! The "private" fare is still $1.50 & they pay $2.00 for the ticket.
Typically I agree with you about the whole datamining vs privacy thing. Look up choicepoint, which coincidently bought a company that through negligence actually caused the 2000 election snafu. But in this case, I don't care if the gov't and others find out what a pig I am. :)0
If you want to make a single trip, you ought to be able to complete it in two hours.
Elias
HUH? Whatcha talk!
They VANISHED just as soon as you dropped them into the turnstyle!
No free transfers between bus and subway for that sucker!
You buy a ticket, you get to make a transfer with in two hours!
Or do you mean that the sale counts as the first swipe?
If so then 1) I did not know that; and 2) THATS STOOPIT!
But I am sure that your two hours counts from your first SWIPE of the ticket, not when it was first sold to you.
Elias
No, it doesn't. The 2 hours counts from the time of the sale. There is no free transfer.
But you can see that they are going out of their way to discourage those suckers.
Elias
Arti
Granted that will normally be the case. But the question was, once the MTA has collected your $2, why do they care whether you use it in two hours, two days, two weeks, or two years?
If you want a 6 or 12 hour card, then you buy a Fun Pass for $7.00
You'd be better off economically with a PPR card, unless you know you're taking at least four trips that day.
Well, coming into town from NORTH DAKOTA, I know that I will be there only one day.
And I also know, since I came into the city for the purpose of riding on subway trains, that I will be able to enter and leave as many times as I like during that day.
: ) Elias
According to articles from 1999, the Single Ride tickets do not have serial numbers.
An alternative approach, which I'd prefer but which probably wouldn't go over very well politically, is a base fare of $1.75 or so plus a fixed per-transaction service fee, with no bulk discounts or SingleRide restrictions.
But then again, when do monopolies have any regard for rules?
The standard agreement between credit card issuer and vendor does indeed prohibit the institution of minimum charges. But this vendor is hardly the standard vendor, in more ways than one, and I see no reason to believe that the agreement between the credit card issuer and the MTA is the standard agreement.
Or have you seen the actual contract in question?
And speaking of the Northeast Subway along the LIE,what was the orginally plan for this line when it was first proposed back in the late 1960's.
David
What compounds this is that Gov. George says they'll get LESS money from the State this year :-( Also Pres. George is trying to take away some the "transportation" money too.
This will never happen. There is no reason why a 50 year bond cannot be floated for the construction. Then all you would have to do is to find investors. They are much easier to convince than congress, especially when many voters want more tax cuts and less government.
In North Dakota we elect REPUBLICANS to the state house and the state legislature secure in the knowledge that they will not raise one mill of unnecessary taxation, but we send DEMOCRATS to Washington do get every possible penny we can from Washington and beyond. But we will vote for GeoBush again, just to keep Federal spending under control.
Go Figure!
The LIE'S eastbound service road was originally designed to have a subway tunnel under it from Queens Blvd to 108th St. That service road has been rebuilt several times. Any accomodations to facilitate subway construction have probably been bulldozed into oblivion.
I tend to doubt it, because the MTA is going to have enough trouble completing the projects that are already in progress, much less those such as you've mentioned which are only glimmers in the eye.
They look like wheel detector signals. Are they planning on putting a WD over the switch going from 2 track to 4 track (local to express)?
These timers are like a plague! I feel like I'm quarantined in my house watching on the news while it just keeps on spreading. When will it stop?
I actually had one of these guys yell at me at the Fordham Road IND station once... I couldn't get a MetroCard from one of the machines, so he offered to swipe me. I told him I was going to the booth instead, so he yelled at me. 'Scuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me!
Seriously, jusr ignore those dudes.
Plus three strikes and you are prohibeted from entering NYCT prperty without being subject to arrest
A nice add campaign will scare off 90% of the amatures
You don't even need a camera for that. When the offender is arrested, a record of the card is obtained, and one violation for each transaction recorded on that card (or each card if the offender possesses more than one card).
There ae a variety of reasons: greedy unions, dishonest contractors, meddlesome politicians, shrill neighborhood opponents, bumbling bureaucrats, and so on.
Mark
I agree that it seems to cost too much. But lest we get carried away with ourselves about NYC, recall the original price quoted by Tutor-Saliba to build Los Angeles' Red Line subway - and how they royally screwed up while building it. It ended up costing about double (if not more) what they promised.
Of course there's station entrances etc, but how much room do those really take?
Is *that* so? Well, It Just So Happened, that we passed a *LAW* that says that surface property owners have rights extending only to a depth of 70 feet, and anything below that is "City Domain".
Any utility or service the city wishes to install there does not affect the affairs of surface right owners, save that no damage may be incured to their properties.
: ) Elias
: )
Mark
: ) Elias
Sometimes it's easier not to ask why.
--Mark
til next time
til next time
Just check out East 180 St...has a giant image of the great R110B...a train that would rip apart IRT station platforms...
My friend strongly believes that with the return of 4-track operation to the Manhattan Bridge, Sea Beach should be the Sixth Avenue service and West End should be the Brighton service but it seems that no one wanted to listen to him. (I'm not sure of his reasoning.) Of course it's too late to change anything now. But can anyone tell me why this would not be a good idea other than Sea Beach has always had Broadway service and are used to it. If it is a good idea, perhaps it could be tried in the future.
An additional advantage (if a few other changes were made which I'll briefly describe in the next paragraph) would be that half the lettered routes would be symbolic or sound like the routes they operate on which would make it easier for tourists and well everyone to remember where they go.
The West End Service would remain the W but terminate at 57 St.
The new W which goes to Whitehall would be named the N.
The Sea Beach would be the D.
The Q would operate to Astoria.
So we would have:
B for Brighton
C for Concourse
J for Jamaica
M for Myrtle
Q for Queens
S for Shuttle
W for West End
Stretching this logic a little: A sounds like 8th Ave and if the V were to be extended over the Broadway Brooklyn line to Canarsie (to relieve overcrowding on the L) instead of the Culver line, it could be relettered K for Canarsie. That would make it 8 or 9 sound alike routes and 8 which would not fit the pattern. (D, E, F, G, L, N, R and Z). (As of February 22nd, we will have five symbolic route letters, six if you consider W standing for Whitehall, and seven if you count the A for 8th Av.)
Yes it's not perfect and would not be mentioned on any map leading passengers to believe that all route letters stand for something. But isn't this what planners had in mind when they converted the BMT from numbers to letters? They purposely picked M fo Myrtle, J for Jamaica and I believe Q for Queens (remember QB and QT) when it ran to Continental. (S was for Special and SS was for Shuttle. Why they chose T when they could have just as easily chosen W for West End was always a mystery to me.)
Actually Q did not mean Queens even back then. Before 1967 Q was assigned to Brighton. Q was the BRIGHTON Express - QB was BRIGHTON via Bridge and the QT was Brighton via Tunnel.
Exactly. The same thing could be said for the M running on the Sea Beach. Technically it did right after 9/11, but I agree with really calling it a GO instead of "regular service". I don't think there ever was a normal Metropolitan to Coney Island service via the Sea Beach. Of course the post 9/11 J running on the R line was basically a reincarnated "RJ" service.
The (Q) was called the (Q) train long before anybody ever thought of sending it to Queens.
The (Q) was *always* used for the Brighton Line ever since Letters were first used on the BMT.
A B C D E F G H are IND designations
J K L M are BMT EAST division designations
N Q R T are BMT SOUTH division designations.
I is omitted because it could be mistaken with the 1
O is omitted because it could be confused with a zero
P is omitted because how could you tell anybody to take a (P) against the wall and still keep a straight face over it.
S is omitted because it was already in use for a Shuttle
U was never used, V is a recent designation, as is the W
X, and Y are not used yet, and the Z was stuck on the Jamaica rather recently for a useless skipstopscheme.
Elias
I and O can be used since some fonts display them enough differently to be distinguished. Besides, is there a 0 (ZERO) train? No. So there's nothing to be confused with in that regard.
But this does not represent a practical approach for the subway. Some of you undoubtedly could have some fun rigging pictures with this scheme, though...:0)
That's how (and why) I write my zeroes (on paper, that is).
Manhattan-bound 7 train, the next stop is 4Øth Street. Stand clear of the doors!
or..a P across the platform..a P upstairs...the next P...take a P to the end of the line [hope its not a long ride!LOL]...etc..etc..etc..Thought I would save everybody else the trouble of continuing this TOO long... ;>)
Or:
"Take a PP against the wall, then take a #2 to Flushing ..."
That has to one of the most funniest comments I have heard in quite some time.
Koi
Probably never will be, because it's too easily confused with V.
I ... can be used since some fonts display them enough differently to be distinguished.
You can't control the fonts that everyone will use to write about the subway. I and 1 would get very easily confused if both were in use.
I agree that O could theoretically be used someday, since there is no zero train.
Or was this done before?
All these pictures were taken at the Roosevelt Avenue IND station.
I don't think that J/Z skip/stop service is useless.
:0)
They could have picked any letter for Brighton but chose Q for whatever reason. At that time N was chosen for the Sea Beach, T for the West End, and RR for 4th Avenue ...
The original "Q" (pre-1967) went from 57th Street - 7th Ave to Brighton Beach - it never entered Queens. The Local services were designated QB and QT depending on whether they went via Bridge or via Tunnel - those did enter Queens but I believe it was purely coincidental... Heck from 1962 - 1967 the RR served Continental Avenue just like the R does today - so these designations seem to have been assigned based on the Southern terminal - not the Northern.
That would make sense since the INDletters were based on the 'northern' terminals..and also since the BMT names were also based on the southern/eastern terminals: Brighton, Canarsie, etc...
I'd go for that (sorry Fred) - Leave the W as the Whitehall local and bring back the T to Astoria ;-)
Then send the B or D down the Sea Beach....
A few hours later, at the Rector St " 1 " station, an Australian tourist was having the same problem.
Questions:
1) has the MTA ever even admitted that there are systemic flaws with this system? I don't often have problems, but new users very often have difficulty.
2) Are there any plans to go with another method of fare recognition somewhere down the line?
The WTC PATH station takes MetroCards, but their turnstile collects the card, and quickly gives it back to the user, avoiding the need to master a " technique ". Much better system, and I bet there are fewer problems for natives and tourists alike.
I'm sure the MTA was well aware of PATH's fare card system. Also, MetroCard is spelled "MetroCard" (not "Metro-Card") as per the printing on the MetroCard itself.
The price on this technology is comming way down. Mass Merchants such as Wal*Mart have decreed to all of their venders that such technology must be in place (at the pallete level) by the end of this year. Soon all barcodes will be replaced by transponder technology.
Elias
...per turnstile. There are a ton of turnstiles at WTC. NYCT could, in many places, add more turnstiles too.
I agree that the new combined units at the WTC are slower, but I've never found a speed problem with the older QuickCard-only PATH units. I think this is for several reasons:
1) The card slot on the QC-only units is more clearly marked, being a different color, while the combo units just have it molded into the same plastic.
2) The card slot on the QC-only units seems to have better beveled guides for inserting the card.
3) The QC-only units have the slot in a more convenient location.
4) The QC-only units eject the card out further into the turnstile walkway than the combined units - the QC-only units have a front-to-back card path while the combo units are mostly front-to-top.
Te approach I've just described offers a better data collection tool for transit riding - it allows the TA to track where riders are getting on AND off, and allows for more responsive route and schedule adjustments.
But it comes down to practicality.
??
Since many of those HEET's (or 'Eggslicers') aren't maintained very often, you can't access that enter and if no S/A is around...
I suppose a R/F system would be interesting.
I remember when the MTA first started installing Metrocard turnstiles, they explained that NYC transit riders they surveyed said they would only use a fare card that they could hold on to throughout the entry process (i.e., NOT a system like PATH or virtually every other card system in the world where you "feed" the card into a slot). The theory was that someone could steal your card as it came out of the other slot.
I think they should have ignored the riders and gone ahead with a system like the PATH's, saving all of us the hassle of learning how to swipe properly. Now we're stuck with what we have, until they scrounge up the money to fill in the empty spaces in every Metrocard turnstile with a contactless smart card reader. (PATH will beat the MTA to having those too, but then, they have far fewer turnstiles to install.)
-RF technology. Expensive nowadays but may be implimented once prices start to drop.
Arti
Sounds like the contraptions on our main library turnstiles. They quite often take a few swipes to read the damn card.
But the store checkout does not write new information to the card.
ie the balance remaining, or the fact that it was just swipped here.
But maybe that is not necessary:
On the subway it is hardwired to the main computer, on buses, it can be done by satelite (after all the UPS truck does it!)
BIG BROTHER (his computer, his uncle, and his great grandfater) can then track your every movement throughout the city, and the black heliocopters can find you wherever you go. (did you know that those colored lights on the sides of the cars were REALLY cameras tracking your every move, and can even measure your body temperature to see if you had sex last night.)
:^)
Koi
Once a rider is acustomed to swiping his metrocard(99.999%) of riders thier is no problem
Do you have any evidence at all for that statement? Another poster in this thread has pointed out that systems that take the ticket in and out again are the norm throughout the world. My experience in and around London is that I have *never* experienced a failure. In my much shorter amount of experience in NYC I have several times had "Swipe again" and occasionally "Just used" with a FunPass. I think this is an example of "The way New York does things is right and the way everywhere else does them is wrong."
However, non-contact smart cards are coming; they are in use in London (Oyster cards), so probably New York will get them within a century or so.
The turnstiles were built to be able to read cards at a certain speed. So if you swipe it to slow, or to fast then yes, you are going to receive a error message. While, I see nothing is wrong with the system itself, I do belive the MTA needs to reveiw a few things to be on the safe side. I think that the MTA should invest money, and impliment the same type of turnstiles as the ones at World Trade Center path Station in the future.
2) Are there any plans to go with another method of fare recognition somewhere down the line?
Probably not.
Think it through, son...
You swipe the card. (whatever information is going to be written to the card is now written to it)
You pass the turnstyle. (How is *that* information going to get onto the card?) Are you ging to swipe it again on the inside to prove that you are in? Maybe the turnstyle *should* collect the card, and give it back to you on the other side.
Of course if things canged, so that it was simply an ID number (ala the EZpass) then your information would be kept on Big Brother's Mega Computer, rather than on the card itself. Then you would have to *have* a card to unlock the turnstyle, and the fare would be deducted from your account when the turnstyle was activated.
Perhaps somebody could just invent some sort of a metal token or coin that you could just drop into a slot...
That was done already. Alot of times some people would jam them. Stick something in them. When someone lost their token, some people could get the token and make some money selling it.
You pass the turnstyle. (How is *that* information going to get onto the card?)
No, but the turnstyle not fully turning can be registered on the card reader, so that when the inevitable reswipe happens, the machine thinks "just used", but registers that the turnstyle is in the same position, so does nothing to the card, but shows "go" anyway.
So, Why didn't *THEY* think of that when the built the dang thing!
Anyone else find this flaw to be on the "pretty annoying" side?
The have to be handicapped accessible! People in wheelchairs gotta be able to read them, you know.
Elias
Apparently, neither did the people who designed the things, or the ones who wrote the regulations. Imagine! Brail signs at the DRIVE UP window.
Same regulators, you know.
Elias
Is there a law now that car passengers have to be able to see, or is the law that only the driver may use the machine to which he drove?
That is the system that Washington Metrorail and BART have used for a few decades. I suppose it may be that "NYC has to be different" syndrome.
I like this column. It almost has nothing to do with it, but as the 2nd such column this month about the traffic, it makes a strong case for my high speed rail.
Luckily he only had to do this drive once. Imagine commuting or doing this semi-regularily. Imagine all the in-state business Disney and others could get, which they're always trying to shoot for.
See future on great I-4 corrider
GIMME MY TRAIN!!!
Mark
Least the bullet train would be feasible for lots of people since it's faster and smoother than driving. I'd like to see the train get there in 40 minutes on one of those 2+ hour driving days.
And why do we all forget that it's turning into one megalopolis? It's failed in Orlando, it's failed north of tampa, and hundreds of other places, you can't have a viable area, with only ONE connecting road.
Not to mention the 10's of millions of tourists.
I still have no doubts in my mind. Of course, when it does turn into one region completely, would it be called High Speed Rapid Transit at that point?
But it's the Orlando to Miami segment that would knock your socks off. Planes and cars wouldn't be able to compete on time and comfort at all. It's been a long time since I've daytripped down there, and I, along with plenty of other people I bet, would be there a lot more if this was around.
Agreed. However, that's why I suggest building more tracks.
"Not all their crossings have gates on them either."
That can be easily fixed.
Do the French build their LGVs on existing freight rights-of-way . . . ? They do not. Are the LGVs a waste?
Now corridors like Orlando-Miami are definitely candidates for high-speed rail. If it were up to me, there would be HSR connections from Orlando-Miami, as well as Orlando-Atlanta. I pick these two because Miami and Atlanta are hubs for American and Delta Airlines, respectively. A hug chunk of the tourists who visit Orlando are going to fly through either of those cities, probably with most of the North American visitors coming through Atlanta on Delta and visitors from Latin America coming through Miami on American, or national carriers from their home countries. My point is that the HSR lines shoudl serve the airports in those two cities, so Orlando-bound tourists can fly to Atlanta or Miami and then transfer directly to a high-speed train to take them to Orlando. Delta and American could even license their names to the trains and institute code-sharing.
Mark
Maybe I should just freeze myself now like Walt Disney. :)
Mark
I wonder how many years it would be before they would move to jacksonville after Miami. Hopefully not long, but i think it was 15 years?
That's for the next generation apparently. Why's construction take so long!
Now, existing track between Miami and O-town requires trains to go west to Winter Haven before they can turn south to Miami. IDK how much longer that would be, but I think maybe a new ROW between say, Cocoa to O-town. What is the current plan for Miami-Otown leg? Down another highway?
Four options:
CSX existing trackage(actually just building tracks next to theirs it looks like)
Follow the Turnpike
Follow I-95
And Using FEC alignment. This one isn't going to happen, it costs 3 billion more and adds travel time.
It sure would be nice to get from Orlando to Miami in 2 hours and 6 minutes.
Also, I don't see why this country should do things halfway with rail, when countries overseas do not.
What about 100, would ya atleast settle for that?
I want 120mph. That's twice the speed of normal traffic(when it's going), and therefore shaves a lot of time off of things. It has to have some marketability. Maybe the international tourists won't mind 90 or 100mph if it works around their schedule and it's easy to get to. So that segment may not be that bad. But we're "getting" jet-turbine trains or electrics, and I want people to be driving slowly and look silly as the one to three trainsets literally blow them off the road. At that point driving won't be the #1 attractive option anymore. You gotta get them at speed, costs, and convienance.
What would help is sometype of cost analysis. I'm sure I could find one, but I haven't seen a comparasion of what it would take to work on any of the CSX trackage. I bet it's in good repair, but to double-track, work on crossings, strick a deal and usage fee's, FRA crap and so on. Least we have the land on I-4 now, just need to get the chain gang to lay down some tracks.
If amtrak is already doing 60-79mph let's say(I dont know what they do), 90 isn't much faster. And I thought the speed limit was 79 anyway?
But besides adding more trains, what is that doing to entice people?
It has occured to you that people driving go door to door and as such have higher average speed than somebody who ride the train, and must use a city transit system, or rental car/cab at the other end, right? Even if the train is doing 100mph it's likely that the driver doing 55mph on I-4 will beat the "HSR" user in door-to-door time. If you do not make the system fast enough to attract riders then it will be doomed to failure from the start. There is no room for apologists who say "110mph is fast enough" in a new-build rail system, anything less than world-class speed for a system like that should be percieved as a complete failure, since it will never have the speed to get people out of their cars.
Just build an ROW down I-4 and get some TGVs, ICE-3s, or Talgo 350s and run the damn thing already! Start with the absolute, say 220mph, and whittle away at it from there, as different regulations require slowing down. In the end you'll end up with 125 mph hopefully, slower than the 186 I specified, and lots slower than the world class 220 we should be aiming for. But that's a hell of a lot better than what you'd get by starting off at 100, a 60mph max, mostly-single-tracked, BBD bilevel line with F59PHIs, running 2 hours headways. And that'd be a worse waste of government money than building a line for more money that at least stands a chance of suceeding!
186mph would be good. The first segment has such a "short" distance that anything 130mph or slower would make no difference between driving and riding.....in good travel days.
But still, it's the Miami segment I would LOVE to see. It will probably make you addicted to rail.
The pics from before if you forgot about them
Save Disney now!
Help out Roy Disney from the evil that is Eisner.
Jacksonville-Lake City-Greenville-Tallahassee-Chattahoochee(no, I did not pick it just b/c it is the name of an Alan Jackson song)-Cottondale-Pensacola
Jacksonville-Starke-Hawthorne-Ocala-Wildwood-Plant City-Fort Myers-Naples
Jacksonville-Sanford-Orlando-Auburndale-Plant City-Tampa-St Petersburg
Jacksonville-Daytona Beach-Titusville-Cocoa-Fort Pierce-West Palm Beach-Ft Lauderdale-Miami-Homstead
Miami-Ft Lauderdale-West Palm Beach-Marcy-sebring-Auburndale-Plant City-Tampa
There'd also be a system of feeder routes, 18 in total. 4 of them would be more like commuter routes for the Tampa area. The rest would connect to the main lines(those listed above) at various points. As for Miami-Orlando, a new ROW from Cocoa would probably be best. So, the route would be something like Miami-Ft Lauderdale-West Palm Beach-Fort Pierce-Cocoa-Orlando
Meanwhile, if the Texas triangle ever gets built, it would be a no-brainer to build a link between Houston and New Orleans. Then we'd start to see something like a nation-wide system.
Yeah, it's a fantasy, but it's a fun one.
Mark
Mark
Something else I heard once is that Southwest Airlines opposed the plan, actively lobbying against it. Does anyone know if this is true? I'm not sure they alone would have the clout to stop something this big, but the reasoning I heard was that since the airline has alot of business connecting the three cities in question, they saw it as competition.
I think it would be smarter if Southwest would not only lobby for the Texas triangle, but lobby to have stations and Houston Hobby and Love Field in Dallas, two of Southwest's biggest air hubs. Anyone living in the eastern half of Texas outside those three cities, who needs to fly anywhere is going to have to drive to Houston, Dallas, or San Antonio. If there were HSR serving Hobby and Love, Southwest would have a huge edge over other airlines competing for these folks' business.
If they were really smart, they'd subsidize the triangle, and license their name to it, calling it Southwest Rail Express or something like that and painting the trains in their own colors, and offering code-sharing to further entice people to ride the train and connect to Southwest flights.
Mark
As far as my scheme goes, one of the reasons I think we should build regional HSR systems like the Texas Triangle or Florida's propsed system is that I think its very possible that once they get going they could grow to impinge on each other, ultimately resulting is something like a national network. An HSR system based on the east coast might spread to Cleveland, where it would connect with a network centered in Chicago, for example.
I think there will be some amount of "I want in, too" going on, though. If HSR were extended from Pensacola to Gulfport-Biloxi, you can be sure New Orleans work very hard not to be left out. They'd hate to lose convention business to Gulfport of all places just because its easier to get to!
Mark
Funny thing when you talk about convention business, Orlando, Atlanta, New Orleans is 3 out of the top 5 biggest convention centers in the US. With Vegas out on their own, I dont' think they will be hurting too much. And Chicago is closer to all the current population. It would be great for travellers, though I'm not sure how much of a selling point one city would have other the other when it comes to HSR.
Mark
Switch to Netscape, and turn the pop-ups off.
I havent seen one in years.
: ) Elias
Well, I've been downloading anti-virus and anti-spyware programs, so my computer has improved tremendously after suffering from a pop-up plague.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
If the cards work, accept it as a gift. If not accept it as the school period has ended.
I always went to Summer School...
Of course there were no subways in Merrick, and so I always rode my bike, even though that was considered the ultimate height of UNCOOL!
: ) Elias
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
The following is from the Boston Herald:
He was the pec-perfect model for a toy action figure and a
cartoon character puzzle, but it's former pro wrestling giant
Brutus "The Barber" Beefcake who's gone to pieces.
Beefcake - these days Edward Leslie, 46, of Winchester - vol-
untarily checked into a treatment program Monday, according
to a source, after cocaine he admitted was his created an
anthrax scare at the MBTA's Downtown Crossing subway station.
Sources said the man who acquired his stage name for hacking
off the hair of his enemies in the ring had been working there
part time as a fare collector - a job that pays $25,000 a year.
"He was a big star for the World Wrestling (Federation)," Buck
Woodward, a columnist for an online pro wrestling magazine,
said yesterday of Leslie.
"During the '80s wrestling boom he became popular because he
was very good friends with Hulk Hogan.''
But behind the colossal bronzed chest and TV set of his own
wrestling talk show, "The Barber Shop," Leslie's life was
headed for the ropes. In 1990, his face was reconstructed
with plates and bolts after a freak parasailing accident. Last
April, the IRS slammed him with a lien for $57,425, according
to records.
The MBTA confirmed yesterday they have an employee named Edward
Leslie, but would not say if he was the one they suspended
without pay after cocaine turned up Sunday afternoon on the
counter of a Downtown Crossing fare booth, prompting an emer-
gency hazmat response.
"Right now it's only an internal disciplinary matter," said
MBTA spokesman Joe Pesaturo. "He has been cooperative with
police."
Although the subway station was evacuated, MBTA Deputy Police
Chief Thomas McCarthy said the fare collector - who he also
would not identify - spared commuters further inconvenience
by coming clean and dispelling terrorism fears.
Leslie's wife, Barbara, did not return a call yesterday.
Leslie was easily earning "six figures" in his heyday, said
Woodward, noting that such falls from fame in the world of
wrestling "have happened before. There are guys who wasted
their money, just like a rock star."
NJT Comet Cabs coupled together
Now for some FREIGHT TRAIN ACTION ON THE NEC!!!
Dude, how many times have SubTalkers posted pics of freight trains on the NEC???? I could count the times on one hand. So this is a BIG DEAL!
Regards,
Jimmy
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
I can't believe I've never been on the Newark City Subway! I really need to get out more...
I like the sign that says obey signals at all times, like it's optional.
It hasn't been worth riding since August 24, 2001.
http://www.njtransit.com/ta_adjustment_project.jsp?ID=1222
I’m predicting a big increase in parking at Hamilton (about the only place where there’s spare space) that the Pennsylvanians will occupy–their other choice is SEPTA!
**Princeton Junction was wierd today: En Route was closed with a notice saying it would be. The waiting room was open, but all the ticket windows were closed. That’s the first time I have ever seen that!
Chuck Greene
I'll try to answer my own question this Thursday when I'll be at Penn Station around 5:16pm, waiting to board a different train.
The first to sign up with get an autographed copy of Randy Kennedy's 'Subwayland'.
Regards,
Jimmy
Downtown 7 Train Running Express Through 103 Corona Plaza due to G.O.
Downtown Express 7 Train passing 74st Roosevelt Avenue
7 Train Departing Willts Point going North in the Sunset
An R-142 running Light, looking dark in the Sunset
R-68 2894 Taking a Rest At Beverly Road
Look at the Ice Covering the 3rd Rail in this Pic!
J Departing 121 Street Southbound
J Train with Leading Car 4930 Entering Cypress Hills
J Train on the Cypress Hill Curve
J Train Departing 121 St Northbound With a Nice Shot of the Signal
R-42 L Train Departing Broadway Junction Southbound
R-143 M Train Entering Forest Avenue Southbound
R-143 M Train Exiting Forest Avenue Northbound
R-68 Q Train Leaving Newkirk Avenue Southbound Basking in Light
Q Train Leaving Beverly Road Northbound
Q Train Entering Kings Highway Southbound
Q Train Approaching Newkirk Avenue Southbound
Q Train Exiting Kings Highway Northbound
R-40 Slant Q Train Exiting Newkirk Avenue
The Q Train Resting at Beverly Road, (entire train)
He would have been on the Q today; Saturday schedule, remember? I know I'll remember that for a long time... ;)
Pure dumb luck - holidays are picked separately from other days. If you work on the day of the holiday normally (in this case Monday), you have to pick a holiday job. The only catch is it must be in the same District and the same tour as you usually work.
til next time
But you'll never compete with John...
Two questions:
(1) What was going on at Roosevelt Ave?
(2) What was going on with the Q?
Don't believe anyting was posted on the offical website about any such service advisories.
Thanks to all who take time to answer.
Not sure what's being done between Times Sq and 57 St, other than "track work."
A question though. What's different about 57/7 that both tracks couldn't be given access to 63 St. like at 47/6?
What I realize now is that today's operation was a mixture of the old and the future on the Broadway BMT.
The old - all express trains - Brighton, Sea Beach, West End - turned at Times Sq, relaying on the express tracks between Times Sq and 57th St.
The future - Q trains will travel via 63rd Street and the 2nd Ave. subway to 125th/Lexington.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
1. What is the total horsepower of an 8 car train?
2. What does the letter number code that I use in my posts mean? Example; Metro Center (A01 C01).
3. Which one of the ten routes is the shortest?
4. What station has an unused trackway that bypasses the platform?
5. Of the nine route terminal stations, which one is in subway?
6. What station was the first to have an incline elevator?
7. How many future stations are presently under construction? Can you name them?
8. What train control system aboard trains selects routes at junctions and interlockings?
9. What is the typical wattage capacity of a traction power substation?
10. On the future Tyson, Dulles, Loudoun county route, How many stations are being proposed? Can you name them?
11. What are the white boxes between the running rails?
12. What station is the only station with an escalator with stair treads that are less then 36" wide?
13. Of the three under water crossing, which one was built using sunken tubes?
14. What two stations have their tail tracks in subway.
15. What station was the last station built with a gull wing canapé.
16. What line crosses the Capitol Beltway I-495 twice?
John
1. What is the total horsepower of an 8 car train?
No clue
2. What does the letter number code that I use in my posts mean? Example; Metro Center (A01 C01).
It refers to the route (i.e. A is Shady Grove)
3. Which one of the ten routes is the shortest?
L (Pentagon to L'Enfant Plaza)
4. What station has an unused trackway that bypasses the platform?
King Street or Fort Totten, I can't figure out what you mean by this
5. Of the nine route terminal stations, which one is in subway?
Glenmont
6. What station was the first to have an incline elevator?
Huntington
7. How many future stations are presently under construction? Can you name them?
3
New York Avenue (???)
Largo (G05)
Morgan Boulevard (G04)
8. What train control system aboard trains selects routes at junctions and interlockings?
Destination code
9. What is the typical wattage capacity of a traction power substation?
No clue
10. On the future Tyson, Dulles, Loudoun county route, How many stations are being proposed? Can you name them?
Tysons East (Westpark)
Tysons Central C (Tysons Corner)
Tysons Central D (Pike Seven)
Tysons West (Tyco Road)
Wheile Avenue
Reston Parkway
Hernon-Monroe
Sully Road
Dulles Airport
Morgan Road
Middletown Road
Total 11 plus proposed station to be built later at Wolf Trap
11. What are the white boxes between the running rails?
No clue
12. What station is the only station with an escalator with stair treads that are less then 36" wide?
Huntington
13. Of the three under water crossing, which one was built using sunken tubes?
Anacostia to Navy Yard
14. What two stations have their tail tracks in subway.
Huntington and Glenmont? I'm suspecting a trick on the second station...
15. What station was the last station built with a gull wing canapé.
Shady Grove
16. What line crosses the Capitol Beltway I-495 twice?
Currently Red, once the Blue Line to Largo opens it will also go over/under twice
A trackway that was built that has no track on it.
John
wayne
2. What does the letter number code that I use in my posts mean? Example; Metro Center (A01 C01).
Letter: Route code. Number: Station/yard area
3. Which one of the ten routes is the shortest?
I'd say something that has to do with the Yellow Line... Can't recall the letters, but I think King Street to Huntington is the shortest... I COULD be wrong.
4. What station has an unused trackway that bypasses the platform?
If by "bypasses", you mean the tracks would NOT align themselves next to the platform for the purpose of opening the train doors to discharge and recieve passengers... I'd have to say it's one of the sidewall platformed stations... Which are numerous as is. Dupont Circle?
5. Of the nine route terminal stations, which one is in subway?
Glenmont on the Red Line... I think Huntington's half-buried as well.
6. What station was the first to have an incline elevator?
Erm... Huntington seems the only one in the right landscape for one, so I'd give my guess there.
7. How many future stations are presently under construction? Can you name them?
3. New York/Florida Avenues (Red line in-fill station), Morgan Boulevard, and Largo Town Center (Blue Line eastbound extension)
8. What train control system aboard trains selects routes at junctions and interlockings?
I'd guess the destination code system... something. It can't be the route codes, as the lines can be mixed for nearly anything (so if you want Green to Franconia-Springfield, you got it)
9. What is the typical wattage capacity of a traction power substation?
R6 doesn't know this one. Sorry.
10. On the future Tyson, Dulles, Loudoun county route, How many stations are being proposed? Can you name them?
12, and maybe.
Tysons East-Westpark
Tysons Central
Tysons West
Wolf Trap
Weihle Avenue
Herndon-Monroe
Reston Parkway
Sully Road
Dulles Int'l Airport
Morgan Road
Middletown Road
... and one I can't recall
11. What are the white boxes between the running rails?
Define "running rails". Right now, I'm guessing the objects in question are the... spot markers (for lack of a better term) used to properly centralize the train depending on consist length.
12. What station is the only station with an escalator with stair treads that are less then 36" wide?
I usually stay ON the trains when I'm railfanning, only taking in the escalators at Dupont Circle (the "bowl"), and Wheaton (longest)... I'd guess Rosslyn or Pentagon... and I'm probably wrong.
13. Of the three under water crossing, which one was built using sunken tubes?
THREE? I only recall two... (Anacostia/Navy Yard on Green, and Rosslyn/Foggy Bottom-GWU on Blue/Orange). Red never crosses, and Yellow BRIDGES the gap. If memory serves me correctly, it's the Potomac River Crossing on the Blue/Orange Lines between Rosslyn and Foggy Bottom-GWU... the tunnels were hauled in, sunken, drained, and attached to the mouths of the tunnels beneath the ground of the riverbanks. And the Anacostia River Crossing on the Green Line between Anacostia and Navy Yard was just tunneled under the river...
14. What two stations have their tail tracks in subway.
Tail Track as in, the tracks don't go to another station in this direction: Glenmont and Huntington. If pocket tracks count, then Grosvenor and Mt Vernon Sq-7th St also.
15. What station was the last station built with a gull wing canapé.
Um... only three of those that come to mind now are: Cheverly, Eisenhower Avenue, Shady Grove... I think Shady Grove was last.
16. What line crosses the Capitol Beltway I-495 twice?
Easy. Red. First between Grosvenor and Medical Center (after the Pooks Hill Road "rollercoaster" crossing (where one station might have been proposed long ago), the line vaults I-270 and I-495 before ducking underground. Second is betwen Silver Spring and Forest Glen. Deep beneath Georgia Avenue, just before pulling into Forest Glen Station, the line (and Georgia Avenue itself) ducks under the same stretch of I-495, but EAST of the I-270 junction. When Blue Extension to Largo is completed, it will have two (you can see the bridge over the Beltway between Morgan Boulevard and Largo Town Center when traveling down I-95... the other point of crossing goes under the highway betwen Van Dorn Street and Franconia-Springfield) also. If you count the access tracks to Greenbelt Yard (and potential extension to Beltsville and Laurel), Green sorta has three potential crossings... aside from the yard access mentioned above, it can go Commuter Shortcut route to Farragut North/Dupont Circle on Red... and keep going to Grosvenor/Shady Grove. Green could also run into the Yellow trackage (L route?) to Virginia, and either fly OVER the Beltway to Huntington, or UNDER it to Fran-Spring... by that logic, Yellow and Blue ALREADY have two crossings also... that leaves Orange out.
What station was the first to have an incline elevator?
John
Friday evening, I want to give everyone a chance to try. There will be no grading.
John
Your are probably to young to remember or never went through the entrances that had the incline elevator.
I thought Mountain Maryland might have remembered.
John
Mark
:)
John
That should be revealed.
John
That's a bit strong ;-) I know some SubTalkers criticise the answers for being factually inaccurate occasionally or maybe put forward alternative answers sometimes, but I wouldn't class that as reviling... Oh, the joys of spell checkers!!!
Another guess is Rosslyn.
Another guess is Rosslyn.
Here is a clue. As some of you might know the original design of the metrorail system did not include handicap access. The decision to add elevators to the system was made after construction of phase I had already started. One of the station in phase I opened on 03 27 1976 with an incline elevator that was later replaced with a conventional elevator.
John
Here goes....
1)--Haven't a clue
2)--Station location code in relation to its route and its proximity in relation to Metro Center (Red,Blue,Orange) or Gallery Place (Green,Yellow)
3)--L Route between L'enfent Plaza and Pentagon
4)--New Carrollton
5)--Glenmont
6)--Huntington
7)--3--NY Avenue, Morgan Blvd & Largo Town Centre
8)--Destination Code
9)--?
10)-12--VA 277, VA 606, Dulles, Sulley Rd, Herndon/Monroe, Reston Pkwy, Wiehle Ave, Wolf trap, Tysons West, Pike Seven, Tyson Center, Tyson East
11)-Communication
12)-I don't Know
13)-Yellow Line under the Washington Channel
14)-Huntington & Glenmont
15)-Van Dorn Street
16)-Red Line
NONE. They aren't pulled by horses, they are electric.
Sister Marry Elephant said, "Hold out you hands, palms down so I can hit them with a ruler."
John
John
That's ok though, you and I lived through an era that could never be repeated in the DC area---we should consider ourselves priviliged to have witnessed such history.
Mark
p.s.---yes, I'm feeling all of my 42 years
1. What is the total horsepower of an 8 car train?
4000
125 horsepower on each axle X 4 = 500 horsepower for each car X 8 cars = 4000 horsepower.
2. What does the letter number code that I use in my posts mean? Example; Metro Center (A01 C01).
The letter number code is the identifying label for the (RTU) Remote Terminal Unit in way side train control room.
The letter number code identifies RTU (Remote Terminal Unit) in the train control room used to control the movement trains through the station and track that the train control room has control over. The RTU is the data link interface between the wayside train control room and the central control computer at WMATA headquarters.
The letter number code system is based on the route letter assigned to the route and the RTU number as assigned in ascending order as the route radiates away from the geographic center of the system. Example; Dupont Circle (A03) A = Route, 03 = Number on route. Each of these numbers identifies the RTU and the adjoining area of track that the local wayside train control room controls. The 4 two level transfer stations where the lines cross a 90 degrees (Metro Center (A01 C01), Gallery Place (B01 F01), L'Enfant Plaza (D03 F03) and Fort Totten (B06 E06) have 2 letter number codes assigned to them one for each route that passes through the station. At present there are 2 ascending numbered main line wayside RTU that do not have station within there control area C11 and J01. C11 is between National Airport (C10) and Braddock Road (C12). J01 is located between Alexandria Yard Lead (C98) and Van Dorn Street (J02). Number descending from 99 are assigned to yards, yard leads and junctions that are not within the control area of an adjacent way side train control room.
3. Which one of the ten routes is the shortest
The L Route, roughly 11,900’ 3627m or 2.25 miles.
4. What station has an unused trackway that bypasses the platform?
New Carrollton (D13).
The unused trackway is outside the outbound track D1at the station platform. If you look at the image below you will notice two rows of railings to the right of the platform track. The grassy area to the right of the railing next to the platform track is the unused trackway.
5. Of the nine route terminal stations, which one is in subway?
Glenmont (B11).
6. What station was the first to have an incline elevator?
Farragut North (A02).
When the Farragut North station opened on March 27 1976 the store front north of the K Street surface entrance escalator now used for the surface entrance elevator had not been acquired by WMATA. An incline elevator was installed where the right escalator is now in the K Street surface entrance.
7. How many future stations are presently under construction? Can you name them?
Three, New York Avenue (B97?), Morgan Boulevard (G04) and Largo Town Center (G05)
8. What train control system aboard trains selects routes at junctions and interlockings?
The train destination system.
9. What is the typical wattage capacity of a traction power substation?
4 Megawatt.
10. On the future Tyson, Dulles, Loudoun county route, How many stations are being proposed? Can you name them?
Eleven;
Tysons East (West Park) (M02)
Tysons Central D (Tysons Center) (M03)
Tysons Central C (Pike Seven) (M04)
Tyson West (Tyco Road) (M05)
Wolf Trap (M06) provisions for future construction.
Wiehle Avenue (M07)
Reston Parkway (M08)
Herndon Monrow (M09)
VA 28 (Sulley Road) (M10)
Washington Dulles International Airport (M11)
VA 606 (Morgan Road) (M13)
VA 277 (Middletown Road) (M14)
Note; The RTU labels that I used above are not the official RTU labels assigned to the route by WMATA but are best guess based on standard labeling practices used in the existing system.
11. What are the white boxes between the running rails?
Marker Coils
The white boxes (Marker Coil) Are part of the train control system that tells the train where it is in relationship to the center of the platform. The pick up antenna is between first and second car of a train. There are no more then 14 marker coils per track, 7 for each direction of travel. They are located at 2700’ (822.96m), 1200’ (365.76m) 484’ (147.52m) and 167’ (50.9m) from center of the platform. Some are fixed frequency and some are variable frequency. The fixed frequency convey distance and grade information, the variable frequency convey distance for skip, short, long or normal stop.
12. What station is the only station with an escalator with stair treads that are less then 36" wide?
Huntington (C15) south mezzanine to platform.
13. Of the three under water crossing, which one was built using sunken tubes?
The tunnel under the Washington Channel on the L Route between L'Enfant Plaza F03 and Pentagon C07.
14. What two stations have their tail tracks in subway.
Huntington (C15) and Glenmont (B11)
15. What station was the last station built with a gull wing canapé.
Van Dorn Street (J02)
16. What line crosses the Capitol Beltway I-495 twice?
Red Line
A Route on elevated along Rockville Pike MD-355 between Medical Center (A10) and Grosvenor (A11), B Route in rock tunnels between Silver Spring (B08) and Forest Glen (B09).
John
You stated 11 proposed, yet listed 12...
and... Re: Question 13: That's what I get for not riding it more often... I always thought it flew over both... but then, how WERE the other two crossings done?
You stated 11 proposed, yet listed 12...
Wolf Trap (M06) is not one of the stations that is in the proposal, You will note that I that I stated "provisions for future construction" in the list. I listed it to inform those that used it in there answers that it will not open as part of the project but will have provision built in to line to allow for future construction of the station. All official documentation states "provisions for future construction". I will admit that version two of track schematic that I originally published 12 19 2003 did not show Wolf Trap (M06) as a future infill station with provisions for future construction. That was an over site on my part at the time that was later corrected.
and... Re: Question 13: That's what I get for not riding it more often... I always thought it flew over both... but then, how WERE the other two crossings done?
The Potomac River crossing of C Route Blue Orange line between Foggy Bottom (C04) and Rosslyn (C05) are concrete lined horseshoe rock tunnels that were excavated using explosives.
The Anacostia River crossing of the F Route Green line between Navy Yard (F05) and Anacostia (F06) are shield bored tunnels with five segment precasts rings used for tunnels linings.
John
"The AirlineTerminals route temporarily operates in the same direction as the Howard Beach and Jamaica Station routes."
Does anyone know why?
It may be a problem in the software (I am speculating here). It's not that big a deal, because the Terminal circulator still gets to all its stations - just in a different order.
NOTE -- You may want to try and find out the status of the Long Term lot (there's some construction going on that must have wiped out a bunch of spaces) before you decide. I arrived at the Long Term parking lot at 7:00 AM this past Sunday, only to find that it was full. They were directing cars to a secondary long term lot which was somewhere near the American Airlines employee lot and running shuttle busses from there to the terminal. Not knowing how I'd get back to that lot when my return flight lands at 12:30 Thursday morning, I ended up parking in the short-term lot near my terminal -- a move that means I'll pay $96 for parking this trip instead of $40. Ouch.
CG
Here are the ones that I took for myself and uploaded onto Webshots:
LRT on Delaware Ave, Camden
turning onto Cooper Street, Camden
shrink-wrapped #3513 in yard at 32nd St shop
shrink-wrapped #3510, same place
wider shot of yard
#3520 testing, leaving Palmyra southbound
NJT Atlantic City to Philly train...
...on Delair bridge
ditto
I forget, do the Dongle Diesel-LRVs have a railfan view through the cab like the HBLR/NCS LRVs do?
I hope to find out on March 14.
Chuck Greene
Mark
Great photos! I’m jealous. All I got to do with my camera today was to take mug shots for scuba certification.
Format: Quicktime (.mov)
Size: 8.7MB
Song: Korn, Did my time
Chuck Greene
Wow i've been on TV alot lately. People are recognizing me in the streets...
I was referring to the ORIGINAL post... and saying that we've all overlooked
the --BEST-- part of Lincoln being BLURRED OUT on the TLC program.
As for me, I could say I am famous...in a way. :-)
Now, do you consider -THAT- a coincidence??
If only I'd have been sitting in Hippo 2500 then we'd have a redux!
(that ep looks like something im bound to tell the grand-grandkids)
Those that know, .......just know, joe.
Story cooked.
Lincoln got Blurred on TLC...
now, please.... BACK TO THE TRAINZ, boiz.
Why, are you homeless? ;-D
Ask Art Bell. He's probably seen a few.
I don't know how to do a direct link. Sorry
< a href="URL" >
Just close the brackets when you actually post a link.
We already know that Houstonites don't know how to drive.
I'm actually surprised that the streetcars have any DENTS. Usually the train beats the car without a count. :)
My response to all this? Shut up and get a life already.
http://www.insidedenver.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_2660217,00.html
Bottom line: light rail is popular out here. Everybody wants the next line to go to their part of town - just not through their backyards. There is NIMBY opposition to running the proposed West Corridor along an existing rail corridor that runs through a residential area. RTD has said, tough.
http://www.khou.com/news/local/stories/khou040216_jt_metroax.265c59ea.html
Also of interest was that Oslo's fees have been used to fund transit and road infrastructure improvements.
Here's the link:
Congestion Charge a "Success"
Mark
Congestion Charge a "Success"
There is a report that Edinburgh might be the next UK city to introduce a congestion charge. It doesn't have a subway, but it has an effective and well-used bus system.
I like the idea but look what happend to the ban against single occupancy cars? The parking lot and business complained that the cars were NECESSARY for them to remain profitable. As crazy as it sounds, we need this traffic and congestion if these business are to continue to pay outrageous rents and city taxes.
By the way, I pass the Holland tunnel every day on the Lightrail and noticed traffic into the entrance is jammed for almost two miles every day now that the single occupancy ban was lifted.
Parking garages and especially surface lots are very unproductive uses of scarce land in Manhattan. In theory, significant restrictions on single-occupant vehicles would result in the closing of many garages and lots, to be replaced by more productive uses that employ more people and pay higher taxes. As one might imagine, this would be a prolonged and not particularly neat process, with closed parking facilities staying vacant for varying periods of time before being replaced by other uses. Employment levels and tax revenues might be reduced for several years before finally beginning to pick up again.
Not exactly... parking is a cash cow. Subsurface garages are especially lucrative; the garage area isn't counted as part of the permitted zoning floor area, so it's taking up space that otherwise couldn't be leased.
Except for eliminating the advantages of broken meters and remaining time, the Muni-Meter costs the same as the parking meters it replaced.
They can rebel if they like. They'll get a nice £80 ($120) penalty notice then.
I would pay $120 rather than £80, as the dollar is at an eleven-year low against the pound, which now trades at $1.90.
Okay, so it's more like $150.
In New York's case there may be fewer people who drive across the CBD without parking in it than there are in London, though presumably there are some, travelling from New Jersey to Long Island or vice versa. However, given that Manhattan is an island, tolls on all bridges and tunnels have much the same effect and would probably be less controversial. Arguably, the EZ pass is New York's congestion charge.
Manhattan indeed does get a considerable number of "pass through" drivers. This is especially true on Canal Street, which is used to get from the Manhattan Bridge to the Holland Tunnel and vice-versa.
Definitely fuel for the fire of those who want a Lower Manhattan Expressway.
>Definitely fuel for the fire of those who want a Lower Manhattan Expressway.
Nah-- fuel for those who want the East River bridges tolled.. steeply. There should be pocketbook incentives to get pass-throughs to use 95 and 287 rather than local streets. (Use E-Z pass discounts to soften the hit to Bklyn and Queens residents.)
Frankly, I think only one man ever wanted the Lower Manhattan Expressway...
The mayor's proposal to toll the East River bridges was certainly met with a good deal of controversy.
It's great - it means the bus is now a realistic option when I'm trying to get from Marylebone to Waterloo and the Bakerloo line's fncked.
Buses can keep to their schedules better now
Unfortunately, those schedules are getting looser as Routemasters decline in number...
There is a report that Edinburgh might be the next UK city to introduce a congestion charge. It doesn't have a subway, but it has an effective and well-used bus system.
I don't know about effective - I found it bloody annoying for two reasons:
1) no regulation, so you either end up shelling out tons in single fares or you get tied to one company's buses.
2) the ex-corporation buses didn't give change and had machines which seized up at the sight of £1 notes.
Buses in New York neither give change nor accept bills.
I don't know about effective - I found it bloody annoying for two reasons:
1) no regulation, so you either end up shelling out tons in single fares or you get tied to one company's buses.
2) the ex-corporation buses didn't give change and had machines which seized up at the sight of £1 notes."
It is true that there are two competing operators in Edinburgh, but if you stick to the Lothian (ex-corporation) buses they do very good value daily unlimited tickets - one that includes the rush hour and an even cheaper one commencing after the morning rush.
Pound notes lasted longer in Scotland than in England (where they have been gone for 20 years) but I haven't seen one on my last several visits to Scotland. Not a lot of point in designing your technology to deal with a vanishing problem.
Yes, but you still have to wait for the right company's bus (which is annoying and causes delay). In London, it doesn't matter who owns the bus - the fares are set by London Transport.
Pound notes lasted longer in Scotland than in England (where they have been gone for 20 years) but I haven't seen one on my last several visits to Scotland.
I was last up there 3 or 4 years ago. There were tons of £1 notes around. The most amusing problem they presented me with was trying to convince the girl in Starbucks in Birmingham when I got back that it was real British money!
Edinburgh (along with Birmingham and a few other cities) could do with putting a conductor on board to collect fares, give change, and help the handicapped onto the bus (doing away with the need for stupid EU directives).
That’s always been the case, even when there were BofE £1 notes. The fact that there are other note issuers in the United Kingdom has largely escaped the bemused English. With all the changes in bank ownership (I think BofS is part of HSBC and RBofS is part of Williams & Glyns) who are the official issuers of the notes?
I would like to see some of the congestion charge going towards the Fleet Line, or something similar to take some pressure off the Central Line.
Enough traffic has been removed so that the buses are running reasonably, which is a big plus. To add capacity beyond that is really, as I said, more Tube!
There are limits to what buses can accomplish. I noticed that buses really crawled along Oxford Street, a major shopping route, even though private vehicles aren't allowed on the street. Buses and taxis were enough to create significant congestion.
After World War II the authorities still aimed to rebuild the City with the same basic circulatory system, but with the main arteries widened for more car traffic, lesser streets and alleys eliminated by superblocks, and--most oddly-- pedestrian traffic entirely eliminated from the streets by means of a system of 'highwalks' among the superblocks, generally about twenty feet up, crossing the streets from one superblock to another on bridges and decks. The system was only built out on any scale at the Barbican and environs (a very, very strange place; the South Bank cultural center follows the same principles but would not directly have connected to the City ssystem), but you can recognize the plan at many other isolated sites in the City rebuilt in the '50s, which have open decks on the second level and sometimes even street bridges, all in expectation of eventually being linked to the highwalks as they spread across the City. Unsuprisingly, actual pedestrians hated all this like poison and the plans were revised to the sort of piecemeal building we see in the City today.
The _City of London_ volume in the _Buildings of England_ series (ed. Pevsner et. al.) details the highwalk plans, if you're curious for more info.
It comes from the conflict of having the bus lanes on the sides of the road with that being where deliveries need to take place. The obvious solution is to put the bus lanes in the middle. This isn't as dumb as it seems. With a kerbside bus lane in a populated area, half the people have to cross the entire street. With a centre lane, everyone has to cross half the street.
unless you make the whole road buses- (and taxis-) only, which is what was done many years ago in Oxford Street.
Although bizarrely it is still classified as part of the A40 (the main London - Oxford - Gloucester - Ross - Abergavenny - Brecon - Carmarthen - Haverfordwest - Fishguard road).
London like many cities removed all their trolleys and replaced them with inferrior bus service. They now have no choice but to constantly rebuild and repair their roads for motorized traffic as this is an important part of their public tranportation system.
The Tramlink is the only way around this problem. Unfortunatly, with only three lines, (2 very short routes) the trams move a small percentage of population. Furthermore, Tramlink was designed very similar to the Houston Lightrail where the train ride right along side with traffic with no established ROW designed to separate the tram from motor traffic.
On a positive note, they are working on extentions and there is Cross River Tram Scheme in the works.
Just to be clear, the old trams were never permitted into the City of London or the City of Westminster - except for a loop from Westminster Bridge along the Embankment and back south over Blackfriars Bridge - so even if they still existed they wouldn't have been operating in the area of the congestion charge zone.
The Croydon Tramlink *is* substantially on private RoW (old rail branch lines), although some key parts of the system are on-street. However, the system is in south London, and no extensions bringing it into the central area area planned. It's a good system, though, and ridership has exceded expectations since it opened in 2000.
I'm not so sure about some of the other tram plans, as they seem to have a high proportion of on-street running. Without private RoW for at least a good proportion of the system, it seems to me that light rail lacks the key advantage of rail transit - namely, immunity from street congestion.
I rode it on a weekday, in early afternoon well before rush hour, and was quite surprised at how crowded it was. It's also suprising how, in the space of just a couple miles, the Tramlink route goes from urban* street running to almost rural stretches.
* = I didn't realize until I went there just how large a city Croydon is.
Except Routemasters aren't inferior. You still have a conductor, but the bus can go on any street. The Kingsway tunnel should have been made buses only when the trams went, though. It's only comparatively recently that crappy one man operation buses have arrived, enforced by EU weasels.
any thoughts
TELL ME A STORY! :)
Peace,
ANDEE
OK...
There *is* a Bridge Tender.
He moved the bridge to allow a train through.
Do you not suppose he would be WATCHING HIS BRIDGE.
He really *should* have seen the lady drive onto the bridge, and not have been surprised by a 20 second train horn blast.
True, he could have done nothing anyway, for I am sure that he could not have dropped the signal on the train short of opening the bridge, and that would have been a disaster of the first order!
Still, if I was a bridge tender, I'd have been watching my bridge when it was in the "unnormal" position.
Elias
Here's a photo
I think the cabin is on the center movable span.
Michael
Washington, DC
(The last time I tried to do that -- en route to a body shop in Yonkers -- I got into an accident on the Trans-Manhattan and smashed up my brand new hood. I'm perversely pleased to see that some people have worse luck than I do!)
And this all happened when I was unemployed, on what would have been my second day of work had I not turned down the offer.
She's very lucky.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Or mebbe it's SPUTIN' DUBYA.... With nucular cramps, of course.
Chuck Greene
On another note, Adrian Sclawy over at WMATA surplus property told me that a number of busses that were used in the movie were surplus WMATA busses that he sold to the production company.
John
It came from Blackpool, England. You can read about the tram system there at http://world.nycsubway.org/eu/uk/blackpool.html on this board. Image 10358 shows one of these back at home - it's a Boat Car. They probably won't sell one to you, but if you go to Blackpool in the summer you might get a ride on one - though come to think of it a trip to San Francisco might be cheaper for you....
'Also on the property are five of the remaining eight "Boat Trams", also with trolley poles. These are built by English Electric, vintage 1934. (Car 226 is at Western Railway Museum in Rio Vista Jct., CA, #228 operates on San Francisco MUNI, and 606, née 235, is at Trolleyville USA in Olmstead Falls, OH. The other four have been scrapped.)'
Is this the one that Septa had in 1976?
-Robert King
Yes, it was a sauna in that car. Let's see, it's 15 degrees (F) outside and inside the car it's about 85 degrees or more. My mom felt like she was going to faint, and other passengers were all taking off their sweaters. It was ridiculous. I went up to a crew member and asked him to adjust the heat, but he said that it could only be done from the bottom (outside) the car. I finally decided to move to another car where I found a seat with my mom after the next station stop.
On my ride back, I took reserved Regional 178 from Wilmington to New York Penn. It wasn't exactly reserved. They overbooked a reserved train. Actually, they didn't. Unreserved passengers were coming on and the crew member (who happened to be new) didn't notice/care. Also, mid-way through the ride, I was walking back from the cafe car (which had seats, no tables) and while walking through the vestibule between the second and first cars (the first car wasn't a quiet car this time) I felt a large gust of wind. Low and behold, the side door is open. If anyone from the FRA saw this, they'd be pissed. I told the crew member and you should have looked at her face. She was scared! One of her fist rides and already she could have been fired. What a crappy day.
Sadly, that's true.
The standard thing to do is to open the sliding door to the vestibule and then flip the little switch to make it stay open while the train is moving. Since the vestibules let in lots of outside air even with the side doors closed, this cools down the car pretty well. When it gets too cold, someone goes up and flips the switch back to let the door close. Repeat cycle as needed throughout a multi-hour trip. In the first car on the train, being able to open only the rear door probably doesn't help as much.
Regarding the side door, I remember passing an open side door while staggering sleepily to breakfast in the dining car on the Lake Shore Limited several years ago. That woke me up pretty quickly.
Dear Critics:
Businesses and hotels who will post revenue's and profits and rooms sold will use these "skewed" figures too. that's the whole entire reason for hosting the superbowl!!! Just as Christmas skews the figures of all retail establishments.
"Rail opponents, noting that 9,004 people is not even half a percent of Houston's population, argue that the new train does nothing to alleviate traffic congestion."
And what percentage of Houstonians go downtown?
Everytime they build a beltway, did they finally increase the figures of relieving the other roads past 3%?
And who cares, if i visited houston, i wouldn't give two flubs if they got traffic or not.
**This is still good news, since real non-one track minded people understand from a product life cycle point of view, this is very well received in it's beginning stage. It can only go up.
Maybe I'll write a letter to the Houston papers saying how absurb the critics findings are, what do you think?
Just suggestions...
Mark
Maybe an outsiders perspective thinking how childish and factless their point of view is is the type of thing that will get printed.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Yeah, when they turn left in front of an oncoming LRV!
: )
You have 4 trains saying this
5 trains saying that
2 trains going to Crown Heights, and some others going to New Lots Av.
5 trains are going to flatbush as Lexington av and Brooklyn locals
and
5 trains going down 7th av
Now, why are they doing this? It's even confusing this poor train
Are they just having fun, or do they have reasons?
They're just doing it to add to the variety of announcements you can record. Next week, they're changing the voices around, too.
The real reason is limited capacity on the local tracks through Rogers Junction. Between 8 and 9am (which I'm assuming is the peak of the morning rush), 23 southbound 2 and 3 trains pass through Times Square. During the period those 23 trains reach Franklin Avenue, they have to merge with six 5 trains to Flatbush. That's 29 tph on the local track just south of Franklin -- essentially full capacity.
If all 5 trains went to Flatbush, there would be six additional trains occupying that short section of track. They wouldn't fit. There are three solutions: cancel those six additional trains (which would leave the Bronx and Manhattan badly underserved), cancel six West Side trains to make room for the excess 5's (which would leave a different part of Manhattan badly underserved), or send those trains somewhere else (New Lots, Utica, or Bowling Green) so they don't need to use that track.
Now, who can think of a nice, easy way to increase West Side service without reducing service at any station anywhere in the system?
Four 2 trains in the morning rush are scheduled to go to New Lots; none are scheduled to terminate at Utica. If you see a 2 signed for Utica, I'd guess it's a rerouted 5.
Here are some that I can see directly from the (5) timetable.
There's a train that originates at Utica, stops at Franklin at 8:07 AM, and terminates at E180 at 9:03
Another follows the exact routing of the previously listed one, making stops at the two stations at 9:02 and 9:59, respectively.
Another one comes from Bowling Green, making that stop at 10:31, and terminating at E180 at 11:14.
Then, of course, there are southbound (5) trains that originate at East 180 also.
5:13 to Flatbush
14:35, 14:55 to Bowling Green
Some 5 trains in the PM even run NOT IN SERVICE from 238/180 all the way to Bowling Green just to loop back up and become <5>/(5) trains. Some (3) trains still go to the Bronx(180) as Not In Service during the evenings. They should send them up at midnight extending the 7 Av Express service northbound(by 2-4 trains) and run them in service to E 180 St like they used to.
How so?
How long does it take to change a sign, a couple of minutes, seconds? I don't have any idea how many sign changing crews the MTA has, but they should have simultaneously changed all the signs on 2/21. Do a sign changing blitz.
There are people that are looking at the future signs and not knowing what's going on. Others have asked "It's open already?"
I was wrong. It takes time to change all the signs. Is it better to change them early or to change them late? Let's see, do more people study the platform signs in utter confusion immediately before a major service change or immediately after a major service change?
It's absolutely critical that the signs be correct this week. Last week, a handful of tourists were confused, but that's about it. And at least one C/R on the diamond-Q made up for the missing signs by making repeated "Brighton express" announcements.
In 2001, IIRC, they did just that. Many signs were wrong on the day of the changeover, and it took a while for them to be corrected. And SubTalk gave the MTA heck because of it.
Now they are trying to get it done ahead of time. I agree with that method. I think it is better that the signage should be correct on 2/22/2004 and that some people will be confused in the days leading up to the changeover.
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IMHO - the MTA could have waited another day or two to make the change (or at least cover the new signs until Sunday). They have done this in the past but then these days properly informing the customer is one of things they are not very good at.
They need a new slogan:
"MTA - Where do you think you're going?"
or
"MTA - You ain't going nowhere"
The practical way is to start changing the signs late Friday and all day Saturday but the MTA doesn't want to pay the overtime.
Another way would be to change the signs but put a BIG sign at each stairway: "All routes shown on platform signs are effective Sunday February 22, 2004".
As for signs, an amzing number of people don't read them. Witness the group I found at the south 'exit' from Times Sq/BMT (the one that has been closed for months) the other day. They didn't read the sign that said "Exit open Saturday 1:40 pm to ...; walked up the stairs, through a construction zone, and out a bank of turnstyles all displaying NO EXIT on them, and then were amazed when they couldn't exit. Or the group of regular riders who consistently try to leave at the south end of 57/7 at 0625, 15 minutes before the exit opens.
When it comes to signs, ther is no pleasing people. In 2001, people complained because they took too long to change the signs. This time, they did it early, and people still complain. My solution - remove ALL the signs.
One day, I walked though the long Times Square/Port Authority passageway. At the 8th Ave end, a couple asked me where does this passageway lead to. I pointed to a sign right next to me (1, 2, 3, 7, etc.) at eye level, which shows how dumb some people are for not bothering to read
I'm on a brooklyn bound A express train. We get to B'way-Nassau. A man stands on the platform. Looks at the digital sign that says that this is an A train, to Far Rockaway. Then, He looks up at the platform sign, which also says that A trains to brooklyn stop here. Finally, he asks: "Is this an A train to Brooklyn?"
The 2 extreme exits at that station are closed on weekends. There are overhead signs to that effect indicating the exits are open Monday to Friday. Yet, people still peek over at least one of the closed staircases to see if it's open anyway.
The rush hour only entrance/exits right? I really enjoy seeing the expressions of passengers there ;-).
Southernmost pair of stairs (Quentin Road side) is open M-F from 6:10 AM to 10 PM, closed weekends.
Does the sign really say that... ?
Central Park, Carnegie Hall, Columbus Circle, Time-Warner Building and Mall, The Plaza Hotel, Mickey Mantle's Restaurant, etc.
Central Park NORTH-59??? Well then, they made a big error in the sign..........
I understand that N/S Kings Highway will become HEET only on a 24/7 basis soon.
But I live within its commuter zone and use the station often.
and will notice the people walking the other way (towards S/S Kings Highway exit), but still walk to the Quentin or N/S Kings Highway sides.
That means nothing. On a weekday people will walk in every direction because they will use the exit most convenient for them.
Also, following a crowd is an incredibly stupid way of finding your way around. Haven't you ever been in a situation where everyone is filing slowly through one door and nobody (until you) ever thinks of breaking from the line and opening the other door?
You should see the people who use the G train, four cars, but people use only the end doors when other doors are usable. And about the one door at say, Cortelyou Road station that's only "usable", I happen to be the first person to open the second door and speak my mind about it.
He wasn't stupid for asking the question. He would have been stupid had he not asked the question and thus gotten on the wrong train.
In early 2002, I was waiting at 53/Lex for a southbound V. As my train pulled in, somebody on the platform asked me if the V ran down 6th Avenue or 2nd Avenue. I nearly cracked up (little does she know!), but in fact it's not clear if the "2 AV" reading on the signs refers to the terminal or to the routing. If her destination had been on 2nd Avenue, I would have referred her to the 6 train upstairs, which might not get her all the way there but at least doesn't dump her four avenue blocks away. (Turns out she was going to 23rd and 6th, so I told her to get on.)
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Since the train wasn’t coming, I walked to the other end and rescued the person who had listened to the announcement and done what it asked. I showed him what the low-level boarding arrangements looked like for future reference.
This problem hasn’t been fixed since July, when I last had to board on the express track. But I sent another e-mail to NJT. Perhaps it will be fixed this time around.
This is bull. How much effort it takes to make a five second announcement over the station's public-address system? Come on.
This is on of the MANY reasons why Amtrak loses tons of passengers. Don't even get me started with their website!
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But the thing thes critics always forget is that traffic is only bad if you're not riding the train. Ride the train, and all traffic you have to deal with disappears!
Mark
Sometimes I think they actually conspire to make sure new lines are built too short or in the wrong places to work well, just so they can have examples of how rail "doesn't work." Am I jsut being paranoid?
Mark
I think this is a scam on the part of highway builders. They've built a system in which each new mile of highway they build only generates the need for more highways. Sometimes I think it won't stop until the whole country is paved over.
Mark
Atlanta must be happy too. EVery city saying "we dont' want to be another Atlanta". There must be a reason why I have never been to the biggest city in the south yet, that's only a daytrip away. I'm avoiding the traffic!
Sounds like Carl Hiaasen.
But it's all the same.
As for Atlanta, you shouldn't miss MARTA. It's a great ride for whatever other problems the city may have. And at least there are some forces in the city that would like to do something else besides sprawl and sprawl and sprawl. If the circle line idea goes through that could foster sounder urban development, too.
Mark
Prediction:
2090 2nd Av stubway opens from 125th to 63rd after being starved of funds by auto lobby for years
2091 Auto lobby slates stubway as waste of money as it carries fewer passengers between 125th and midtown (and cost more to build) than any other North-South line.
I never seen anyone killed on a train. I never seen anyone sprain an ankle on a train.
I have seen lots of people dead on the roads. I've seen billions of people carted away on roads. And even more glass in the intersections.
Before I moved, when I drove every afternoon and saw 3-4 or more accidents everyday up and down the street, with one FHP making his way up the line, I wonder how much that costed me. I complained about this daily. Okey, so you have all these aggresive schumcks ramming into each other. There goes MY insurance. Gotta pay for FHP, which are just glorified babysitters, they can't patrol, all they do is respond to the accidents when they get around to it. There goes my tax money. Medics and firetrucks relentlessly going back and forth. Oh no, guess.
I'll never forget my first apartment complex in orlando. Everyweek there was a different car in the lot completely totaled. Actually, first week, a whole apartment was wiped out at the complexes exit.
Hey, look at this, more than half the folks admited into the trauma centers are car related, and they're on teh verge of shutting down state-wide:
"The hospitals, having organized as the Alliance to Save Florida's Trauma Care, said Monday that they have the support of some lawmakers for their plan. Their trauma units currently operate with money from a variety of sources, from patient revenue to local health-care taxes to university funds.
The group wants drivers who run red lights, accumulate six or more points on their licenses, drive without a license, or are arrested for driving under the influence of drugs or alcohol to pay stiffer cash penalties. More than half the patients treated by Florida's trauma units are injured in traffic accidents, the alliance said, so bad drivers should be forced to pay for their care."
This type of thing insults and offends me. This guy needs to be kicked in the shins.
Cash penalties? At least in the case of the DWI's, and maybe the unlicensed drivers too, cash penalties are too lenient. Prison time is appropriate.
They're real credible in my eyes.
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
Oh noes, the conservatives are going to come and kill us all!!! ::rolls eyes:: Not that I think the report itself is all that accurate either, but come on... the fact that it's a union website kinda necessitates that the reader take it with a grain of salt.
The whole thing is laughable.
http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=11994
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President Johnson visited Florida to dedicate a canal and the FEC's union blew up a railroad bridge to draw his attention to their plight.
Cheers!
Historically, all rapid transit cars have had a leading zero to distinguish them from surface cars. The 1994-95 Nova RTSes broke this tradition by being the first "surface" vehicles with a leading zero.
I guess the announcements will now have to be updated again?
How do they actually update the announcements, via laptop and cable, changing memory chips, or some other method? Also, is the announcement software seperate from the other software on the trains, or is it a giant "Train software CD" package that includes information pertaining to other parts of the train (like propulsion and brake control)?
Thanks CI peter
Robert
In fact there are no R36 ML survivors. 8969 is a R33 ML.
Robert
-Stef
8986 also.
You are wrong. There is a pair still hidden somewhere. hee hee hee
Robert
Robert
til next time
Robert
shall i reveal it???
til next time
"This is a Bronx-bound (6) local train."
I can remember every train saying this.
Recently, however, I've been riding (6) trains with updated announcements (which is nearly all of them, I believe), and some of them have been saying this:
"This is a Bronx-bound (6) train."
I haven't figured out why there's a discrepancy in what they say, but I think I've figured out what determines the change.
The trains terminating at Pelham Bay Park will say:
"This is a Bronx-bound (6) train."
...while the trains terminating at Parkchester will say:
"This is a Bronx-bound (6) local train."
HOWEVER!
When the express trains are running to Pelham Bay Park in the afternoon, even the express trains will say:
"This is a Bronx-bound (6) local train."
I'm still investigating this, but that's my hypothesis.
"This is a Bronx-bound (6) local train."
Apparently whoever programmed this had the announcement change once the train was at 3rd Av/138th because there the announcement is "This is a Pelham Bay Park bound (6) express train...."
Perhaps since the Pelham Bay (6) is still a considered a local when it gets to 125th St could be the reasoning why the announcement is as it is.
I think this is common to all of the routes. After the train crosses out of Manhattan, the description of the terminal gets more specific.
But then common sense is not one of the MTA's strong points.
6 LEXINGTON AV LOCAL
6 TO PELHAM BAY PARK
6 LEXINGTON AV LOCAL
6 BRONX EXPRESS
6 TO PELHAM BAY PARK
6 LEXINGTON AV LOCAL
6 TO PARKCHESTER
Their M7's have not run in revenue service, but by reading the M7 thread below, it would see that the MNCRR M7s would be better off the the LIRR's.
Now, MN covers more territory then the LIRR- in colder areas too. Even the M1/3s on MN seem to in better shape then the LIRR's.
It would be really interesting however, to see how the new trains fare on MN.
Most likely they just took the bulbs out of a different box.
I got a new type of flourcent tube in my office T8 instead of the standard T10 size, they use an electronic ballast instead of the old wire wound things filled with tar. Funny thing is the tubes are one color at one end and another at the other.
Looks like a cool white on the west, and a warm white on the east. Go figure.
Elias
P.S.: After today, I will not be posting until next week because I have to spend this time at my dad's house, and I can't go to SubTalk over there.
You have Cool white which is what the cars were delivered with, and they have warm white.
It looks as if when they blow, Westchester Yards is placing in Warm Whites as the replacements. The Warm white color bulbs actually are better for the cars because they'll tone down the brightness of the 142/142As.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
TransiTALK, LLC
When the TA got the 1994 TMC RTS-06 Buses, they arrived with the Warm White Bulbs, giving off the pinkish hue to the interior and yet not being so intense on thbe eyes. As time progressed, bulbs needed replacement and they started showing up with cool whites. Now it seems they are reverting back to Warm whites in those coaches.
This may very well be happening with the R-142As. OR it may be a slow conversion to a full fleet of Warm White blubbed Millennium Cars. I can see the conversions happening becuase the R142/R142A have had complaints of being too bright or too sterile. The R-143s lucked out on this problem with the Gray Walls and Egg-Shell white roofs which soaks up the Cool White Blubs.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
And if a bulb replacement is whats going on, rather than just waste all of the cool whites that are in the cars that work, wait for them to blow and place in the warm whites.
I personally like the warm whites, i've been a fan of warm white blubs since the 1994 TMC RTS buses. And I love the R142As with them, its soo much easier on the eye!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Also, i still don't think that it's a replacement program since this (the brown lights) has been occuring since at least 2 summers ago, and I have not seen an entire car with the brown lights. The older (72xx-73xx) cars have them more frequently than the newer R142A's, and the bulbs are still spartan throuought the car (maybe 1 or 2 on a single side of a car)
Here is another thing to consider:
There are MANY different colors of flourscent tubes. Cool White and Warm White are only the best known.
A very good lamp is the K-50 or the K-70 (refering to their Kelvin Temperatures) The K-50 is a very beautiful and natural color lamp, and is very flattering to skin tones.
Put a Cool White lamp in place of a K-50 and it will look like a Warm White lamp by comparison to the others. K-50s are almost half again as expensive as the more popular colors. The TA might not want to spend the money, where as the manufacturer *does* have an incentive, since it shows up is product in a most flattering way.
Elias
Elias
Bulbs are round pear shaped things with a screw in base.
All are called lamps, Flourscent lamps are also reffered to as "Tubes".
Lamps are measured in eighths of an inch.
A B-24 lamp would be two and a half inches across.
A P-32 would be a 3 inch parabolic reflector.
A T-12 would be the older 1 1/2 inch diameter tube.
A T-8 would be the newer 1" diameter tube.
: ) Elias
Then it depends on how MTA manages it's facilities. Do they replace all the lighting at once, or just as they notice lights burning out.
Thanks...Rich
Choose wisely
There are several pictures of the Metro-North Comet V's with Metro-North logo as I presumed months ago in the thread at the above address.
My Evolution Album
This Is What I Live For...
Your photos are great, to me at least.
Jim Fish
Albuquerque, NM
See you on 2/22 and on one of the MOD trips.
J/K
http://palter.org/~brotzman/01-21-04_PITTSBURGH_ALLIANCE_TRIP/Part_1/
And the tower pics:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/?M=D
Yup, lots of towers.
And some teasers:
Westbound 3-Rivers at Pittsburgh
Here is the Pennsylvanian trainset after returning from wyeing on the Homewood wye. It sits overnight at the station.
Here is a night shot of CP-PITT. It's positilicious.
And finally some night shot fun I was having with the position dwarfs at CP-WEST PITT
Here are some pots and pneumatic turnouts
Here is one of the legs of the wye
And the location of STATE tower.
Here is an Amtrak Keystone train waiting at the platform
More position lights
Some PC coaches perimently stored on the 0 Track.
And CORK tower built in 1929
A-5 pneumatic going strong in the snow
Gantry leg mounted pot at WORKS
Helpers waiting at CP-WORKS. Note the pneutmaic equipment.
And a GP-9 at the Apex of the Horseshoe Curve
Wrecked engine
Old scale test cars
Pneumatics braving the snow at CP-SLOPE
Signals over the top are all still PRR Position Light. There are three mainline tracks and signal bridges are every mile instead of every 2.
MG tower stands for Mid-Grade. It was built in WW2 to handle the increased traffic volume. Today it is still a full three track crossover. It is a very cool looking tower. It along with the other towers between here and Johnstown were closed in 1994-1996.
I haven't ever seen it, but there is a branchline up in Everett, WA that accesses the Boeing 747/767/777 assembly plant that has a 5.89% grade upon which an SD-type locomotive is two and a half feet higher at one end when going up the grade. It's not a long one though, just enough to access the plant a couple miles off the mainline.
Horseshoe Curve must have been one great place to watch the rail action when it was four tracks....and constant movement.
Gawd, better not give Union Pacific that idea for Tehachapi Loop!!
I looked for that line when I was in the area a few years ago. No luck - as far as I know, it may not be visible from any publicly accessable land.
But there were plenty of 747 wing parts cars up at the plant....and shiny rail.
LOL!
Here is C tower in Johnstown, recently closed.
Here is a new signal between SO and C as part of the Rule 261 installation on tracks 1 and 3
Here is what is left of AO tower. This is actually the base of the old AO tower. AO was reduced to a single switch and remoted to C some time ago, but AO soldiered on housing the air compressor. The AO pneumatic was recently converted to Pneumatic.
Finally a position light at CP-CONPIT, where the Conemaugh Line joins the Pittsburgh Line
The loop track between CP-AR and CP-UN at Galitzen, the high point of the Main Line. The loop is for turning helpers.
Home signals
Pots off the stub tracks
This tubular cantilever is a relitivly new installation, rare for position lights. Interesting piece of trivia. The left signal only has a diverging route, but it can still display an Approach Medium. This is possible because since NORAC does not have a PRR PL aspect for Medium Approach Medium, Conrail issued a bilitin instruction allowing trains to diverge over an Approach Medium as long as the preceeding signal was not displaying CLEAR.
However, CP-WEST PITT is also at Mileport 0.0 on the NS Fort Wayne Line and counts all the way up until MP 700 something in Chicago. In PRR days this marked the boundary between Lines East and Lines West so the re-scaling of mileposts is appropiate.
Anyway, I took a series of photos of the Three Rivers as it crossed from Lines East to Lines West. If you can save them to disk and then find a way to scroll through them it makes a cool animation. It starts out with the engine taking the signal then the passing coaches and finally the roadrailers and box cars for express freight.
Thanks
Despite I'll be missing 2/22 any the first MoD trip for photo ops, I should be getting my camera very soon.
Path doesnt share money with MTA, and the same with MTA to Path.
Not an impediment. All types of Metrocard work on the private buses in the outer boroughs, and these are run by private companies under contract and receiving subsidies from the City of New York and are not affiliated with the MTA.
They even get to charge their own fare on the Metrocard.
On the queens bus's, its 1.50 on the card, when transfering to a "MTA bus" it takes off that .50 cents.
And the point of this? I dont know, ask the person over there.
No, it is not like London because these private companies are NOT affiliated with the MTA.
On the queens bus's, its 1.50 on the card, when transfering to a "MTA bus" it takes off that .50 cents.
No, it doesn't, the transfer is free.
The transfer to the subway does what you described.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
TransiTALK, LLC
#3 West End Jeff
However, if a train of R32's happened to wander onto the G line, it was always a 10-car train.
In reality, the 6-car R46s are not equivalent to an 8-car 60ft train.
6 x 75 ft = 450 ft
8 x 60 ft = 480 ft
I was on it. And I got to school at 9:10AM, just a half hour late.
Plus to get to Court Sq, I had to exit the Queens Plaza station and WALK to Court Sq...which wasn't fun since it was arctic cold that day and sheets of ice were everywhere.
But yea, seing an 8-car train on the Crosstown is rare, unless its a rerouted F train.
Service Alert
Wednesday, February 18, 2004 6:45 AM
Montauk Branch Customers
The 5:30 AM westbound train from Speonk is operating approximately 45 minutes late as a result of striking an all terrain vehicle abandoned on the tracks east of Mastic.
Peace,
ANDEE
Of course, all points are withdrawn when one considers the mental anguish of the engineer and crew.
Survey: Memphians Favor Light Rail
I think this is good news. I fly into Memphis about once a year, and it'd be good to have a rail line to get to and from the airport. 73% in favor is a good number. Let's hope the project gets off the ground.
Mark
It makes me wonder what could have happend if Bob Diamond had succeeded in his Trolley restoration project in Brooklyn. If that streetcar system had been very successful, you can bet New York would now be building LightRail routes and phasing out bus service along some of the most used routes.
What if the train flys off the tracks and lands through the wall of a school, someone needs to warn those ignorant citizens before it's too late.
Actually, I think this one might fly. Like Tampa, Memphis has had a good experience running a nostalgia streetcar downtown, and is trying to develop this operation into a modern light rail system. The historic streetcar seems to have been a wedge to pry open the door in this case. Is anything like that happening in Tampa, too?
Mark
It's not all bad though. On both sides of the bay the #1 public concern is traffic, and public transit has a really hefty support. Both sides of the bay want to put gas taxes and a transit sales tax on the ballot. Someone put a letter in the paper just yesterday saying to get rid of this bridge and build the monorail.
It's really hard to tell. Between PSTA's monorail, HARTlines LRT/trolley expansion, and the HSR, somethings gotta give!
But as you can tell on any ride on the trolley, people love it. And people are ready for an alternative, no matter what some LA think tank said otherwise.
I haven't heard about the LRT project connecting one of the beaches in Miami in a while though.
Looks like the other side of Tampa Bay is getting serious about rail
Interesting.
Photo taken today 25 minutes after sunrise but under a total cloud cover with no changes made to the camera's settings:
Same photo as above, but with minor, rookie, seat of the pants, manual color correction with IrfanView:
Did I make the photo better or worse? And if anyone has one of them there fancy Photoshop programs that does automatic color correction, I'd be interested to see how that would turn out. Thanks.
I mean BRRRRRRR!!
Now here is a hazy summer day where everything got red shifted
For many of the photos in this batch I colour corrected back to blue, but I couldn't do to much because it make the setting look totally unrealistic with a greenish tint. I believe I left that photo alone, but the worse ones I corrected slightly.
Wednesday, February 18, 2004 Posted: 8:23 AM EST (1323 GMT)
Many of the fatalities were villagers, onlookers and rescue workers.
Story Tools
TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- Scores of people have been killed in northeastern Iran when runaway train cars filled with fuel and chemicals derailed and exploded, destroying five nearby villages, Iranian officials said.
Iran's state-run news agency IRNA said Wednesday's explosion killed at least 200 -- including the mayor, energy chief and fire chief of Neishabour, where the train cars derailed in Khorasan province, east of Tehran. As many as 400 were injured, IRNA said.However, Iran's state radio put the death toll at about 60.
Many of those killed were onlookers from surrounding villages and rescue workers responding to the derailment, which happened at around 10:30 a.m. (0800 GMT).
The 51-car train was transporting gasoline, phosphorous and other industrial chemicals when some cars broke loose and derailed, officials said.
"The wagons began exploding one after another," journalist Shirzad Bozorgmehr told CNN.
The explosion could be heard 50 miles (80 km) away and was so powerful that it shook the earth and registered on seismographs as a minor 3.6-magnitude earthquake, CNN's Matthew Chance reported.
The train cars were sitting on the tracks, waiting to be moved, and were not attached to a locomotive. An inquiry will look into how the cars got loose and rolled down a slope toward the villages, Bozorgmehr said.
Video of the scene showed several cars piled up on the train tracks, and a thick black cloud of smoke was coming from several cars, fully engulfed in flames.
Look at US derailments with hazardous cargos. Usually, there is no major loss of life in US hazardous cargo derailments.
According to both the Times and Post, windows were broken up to six miles away. Roseville was five miles.
Note the train was carrying both petroleum and fertilizer.
A 500lb bomb consists of some RDX or Octol with a lot of filler, and of course the things are designed to not to cook off in the presence of a fire. Back in 1973 it was probably RDX in the 500 pounders, and when the 18 boxcars full of bombs blew, they did so in succession, over 24 hours. Not all at once, as would likely have been the case with a trainload of fuel oil and ammonia fertilizer, the exact ingrediants for an Anfo bomb.
Mark
Not when they both share a common enemy.
Look at those diamond placards on tank cars next time you see a train, and write down some of the four-digit numbers you see. And when you get near an Internet capable computer, check out the contents of those freight cars at:
http://hazmat.dot.gov/gydebook.htm
You will start staying a tad further away from railroad tracks after reading some of those commodities you saw on the trains.
Trucks are (all too frequently) operated by underqualified drivers operating with too many hours in (perhaps) poorly inspected rigs, and at the complete mercy of whatever jackass happens to be driving a personal car against them.
Trains are generally operated by professionals under more controled circumstances: however as always, Shit Happens.
Elias
Mark
The AM:
179 leave: 0712+ (half min)
WTC arrive: 0803
179 leave: 0731
WTC arrive: 0822
179 leave: 0751
WTC arrive: 0843+ (half min)
179 leave: 0811
WTC arrive: 0904
Then in the PM:
WTC leave: 1708
179 arrive: 1801
WTC leave: 1728+ (half min)
179 arrive: 1821
WTC leave: 1840
179 arrive: 1925
WTC leave: 1920
179 arrive: 2005+ (half min)
There you go!
Now, I just gotta figure out when the train will arrive at certain stations, in standard time....
I only care about evening runs to 179th, particularly around 5-6pm
WTC leave: 1708
179 arrive: 1801
and
WTC leave: 1728+ (half min)
179 arrive: 1821
1708 WTC E pulls out of Times Square at 1722, and pulls out of 5th Avenue at 1728.
1728+ WTC E pulls out of Times Square at 1742, and pulls out of 5th Avenue at 1748.
There ya go!
Robert
Robert
179 St
Canal Street
E
The next 4 said
179 St
Canal St
F
and the last 2 said
Parsons/Archer
Canal St
E
This was when WTC was closed to passengers.
JONN
In the morning, it's only leaving from 179, nothing going to 179. In the PM, there's three trains that leave from 179 as putins.
Leave 179: 1557+ (half min)
Arrive WTC: 1644
Leave 179: 1616+ (half min)
Arrive WTC: 1703
Leave 179: 1636+ (half min)
Arrive WTC: 1723+ (half min)
Robert
Robert
Then who died?
The reason it is being changed is because the B will now become the Brighton Express (replacing the and the D will now run on the West End.
I am not sure anyone knows the exact reason why they did it that way (although there is plenty of speculation).
They couldn't just restore the old service pattern, because while the bridge was closed the 63rd St connector opened, and therefore 21st St/Queensbridge can no longer be a terminal.
The endless argument on SubTalk is whether the particular choice they made was the best one. Clearly, no matter what they did, the old service pattern couldn't come back, because the track layout has changed.
It's worth noting that the Straphangers Group have had a very favorable reaction to the new service, and the Straphangers aren't known for going out of their way to praise the MTA. Most of the objections, IMHO, are from people who are nostalgic for particular letter-line associations that they grew up with.
Somehow I don't think that this is a factor in any decision.
Sure it is. Now, had the 63rd st connector NOT opened, how would you have routed service? Big difference, eh?
Either way, There's PLENTY of logic as to why the D runs on West End now. You couldn't give any logic as to why the D should run on brighton.
Only ways that could of really happened is if the D became the part time line; I didn't see it happening. OR if the Q was chosen to be the part time line, that brings the D to Brighton once again.
I'd also like to note that the N was the Queens Blvd. local, and it terminated at 57th st during weekends, meaning that the G was the only QB local.
Whether that was supposed to be permanent or not, I don't know.
The M move was "temporary" ;-D.
The broadway option really did not exist. People who were C/R's at that time indicate that many QB runs were cancelled. The QB was not really much of an option at the time, unless you really had to go to broadway. Otherwise, it was much better to take the M local or D express. No matter how you slice it, today's pattern is better than the 80's plan.
The M move was "temporary" ;-D.
No, I think it was meant to be permanent.
In addition, the QB was a concession to Brighton passengers who in 1967 complained about losing service to Broadway. So was the NX.
Ok I see now how the Q worked then. Thanks.
As for travel patterns, things had changed in 20 years, even before 9/11. The tunnel trains have been much less crowded than the bridge for as long as I can remember, so there is less need. I think the new plan recognizes that.
And look at the condition of Chambers St. Its just creepy. Nobody I know will voluntarily use that station. So the M serves 2 stops in downtown Manhattan that are busy. And the last time I rode the M it was completely empty at 5:30pm towards DeKalb. It makes me wonder why there is the big push to get the LIRR down there.
Methinks pone exaggerates just a bit. I have used that station (exiting from the J train). It's not the best looking station and it needs work, but creepy it's not. And there were plenty of people getting off with me, though other stations were busier.
Chambers St-Brooklyn Bridge ranked 26 out of all the stations in the system with it's about 9.2 million annual paid fare count. Of course the majority of those fares went to the Lexington's platforms, Chambers is far from a dead station.
How?
From the way I see it, all it would mean is that the Q would have continued to 21st.
What's that spell?
Ooops, I meant "Express B", not "V" obviously.
BTW, the Connector as built was not controversial, in that even if the super-bypass track had been built, or some other routing used, a connection to Queens Blvd. like the one implemented would have happened anyway. The TA rightly wanted the routing flexibility the Connector represents. The difference is that with a 5th track going all the way to Continental and entering the 63rd street tunnel, there might have been an opportunity to keep the G running to Continental, because the expanded Manhattan-bound capacity would have been provided largely by that extra track (I am speculating here; I don't know. Lots of ???)
But regardless, the TA would have installed a connector piece which would diverge via a switch into the Queens Blvd ramps, as happens now, so if the TA wanted to send a Queens Blvd. service (besides the bypass express)through 63rd St, they could do that.
Not really:
(A)(C)(E)(J)(L)(M)(R)(S)(S)(Z) no change
(B) 205 - Concourse Lcl - CPW Lcl - 6 Exp - 4 Exp - W End - CI (Full Time)
(D) 205 - Concourse Exp - CPW Exp - 6 Exp - Brighton Exp - BB (16/5)
(F) via 53 (the F train as it was pre-63)
(G) to Continental (the G train as it was pre-63)
(N) express Herald Sq - 59
(Q) 21/QB - 6 Exp - Brighton Lcl - CI (Full Time)
(W) Astoria - Bway Lcl - Whitehall
No (V) train!
No, 34th (Manhattan) to 59th (Brooklyn). That's skipping godknowshowmany stations and running over the Manny B.
I think the better plan would be the V 21sst to 2nd Ave, Q 57-7th - BB.
What on earth are you thinking? The track plant is no longer configured the way it was before construction began. Service needs to operate on the track plant as it now exists, not as it used to be.
The new B represents the marriage of the old B and the old diamond Q. Each one operated Mon-Fri 6 AM - 9 PM, so it made perfect sense to combine the services. This way, Brighton Line riders get the B - express service to the 6th Ave. Line, and the Q - 24/7 local service to the Broadway Line express. Another reason to make Q-Broadway the Brighton Line base service, as opposed to the D beforehand, was to permit the Q to become the 2nd Ave. subway above 63rd Street in the future without impacting any other services.
For the same reason, the D becomes the West End service 24/7 and is matched with the Concourse Line full time service.
Is this a common practice? Has anyone seen C/Rs doing it before? Is it agaist MTA rules?
Thanks,
Julian
How can you be sure pappy J?
It might have been the type of SPEAKER in the subway car..
The next stop is...
59th St.
Stand clear of the closing doors, please.
Click.
"
I also saw the C/R holding some sort of black box in the cabin.
Julian
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Bored, I'd say, not depressed.
:P
"This is...*grumble*...go here for the...*grumble*....blah, blah....there. Stand clee da doors, pleaSE..."
Good afternoon, ho ho, hee hee, this a Queens-bound J train; Alabava Amenue next, stand clear o'the doors, don't mind if I do, ho ho!
The irony is at its strongest in this thread, RIPTA.
I railfanned my home line, the J (or Z rather) from Jamaica to Broad Street during today's morning rush hour. The C/R announced well. :)
Virtually on all of the current rolling stocks (except the R142/A/3 from my observations) all of the P/A's have this annoying feedback problem that can easily be heard. I believe to this day no one has figured out what causes it, or how it can be corrected.
Regards,
Jimmy
Yes, on the private side streets. Alternate side parking applies only Monday and Tuesday.
If you need to park through Tuesday, park at Sheepshead Bay, where it's Thursday and Friday.
I have parked on E 17, E 16, E 15 and E 14 usually between Aves O & P, but between Aves N & O is fine, too; I don't recommend parking near the school on E 13th (between Aves O & P, I think).
--Mark
--Mark
John
Bill "Newkirk"
Is that circle area a place to swipe a card or something so it can automatically refill, or for some new metrocard technology yet to debut?
Yes, that is what it is. The WTC PATH turnstiles have readers for these, as do the Airtrain ones. The Airtrain MVM's (the full-size ones) had an option to refill smartcards on opening day, but that menu option later disappeared.
"Simi Valley -- A 42-year-old man who tried to tether a shopping cart to a passing freight train died after being ensnared by the cart and dragged for about a mile, authorities said Tuesday.
"Alan Pichel, accompanied by his 17-year-old son and the boy's girl friend, threw a bottle that was tied to the cart into the path of a southbound train...
"'Apparently, they wanted to watch the shopping cart be dragged along by the train,' Bromley said. 'He got entangled in the shopping cart.'
"Pichel was hit about 6:35 p.m. Monday...and dragged about a mile by the train, which was going about 15 mph, officials said. Pichel died from multiple blunt-force trauma."
Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
Mark
Advice for anyone trying to redo this activity. Stand BEHIND the rope and shopping cart and not in front of it!
Good advice!!!
I saw a locomotive stop on a dime once.
The Dime did not survive.
: ) Elias
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
#3 West End Jeff
Possibly yes, which is why people who have reproduced are eligible for Darwin Awards. It is hoped that their award-winning escapades will serve as (negative) examples to their spawn.
Mark
Not to mention the new Church Avenue elevator, which is sometimes decaled in a bad way on the current (2) stripmaps. Some align it with the text, but others look like the person who stuck them didn't even care. I was on a car recently that had the wheelchair symbol covering the "enue" part of "Avenue" on the Church Avenue reading.
Don't believe me? Here's a list:
Brooklyn College-Flatbush Avenue Newkirk Avenue Beverly Road Church Avenue Winthrop Street Sterling Street President Street Franklin Avenue Eastern Parkway-Brooklyn Museum Grand Army Plaza Bergen Street Atlantic Avenue Nevins Street Hoyt Street Borough Hall Clark Street Wall Street Fulton Street Park Place Chambers Street Franklin Street Canal Street Houston Street Christopher Street-Sheridan Square 14th Street 18th Street 23rd Street 28th Street 34th Street-Penn Station Times Square-42nd Street 50th Street 59th Street-Columbus Circle 66th Street-Lincoln Center 72nd Street 79th Street 86th Street 96th Street Central Park North-110th Street 116th Street 125th Street 135th Street 149th Street-Grand Concourse 3rd Avenue-149th Street Jackson Avenue Prospect Avenue Intervale Avenue Simpson Street Freeman Street 174th Street West Farms Square (East Tremont Avenue) East 180th Street Bronx Park East Pelham Parkway Allerton Avenue Burke Avenue Gun Hill Road 219th Street 225th Street 233rd Street Nereid Avenue Wakefield-241st Street
This is to avoid confusion withe the #5 line station counterparts.
This is to avoid confusion withe the #5 line station counterparts.
Anyone know what the heck was going on?
In any case, the express I rode about an hour later from Atlantic to 72nd didn't have any problems, although the local we met at 14th took its sweet time getting to 72nd (and then the train almost emptied out when the C/R accidentally announced 103rd as the next stop).
I saw one local meet at Times Square, and then pass the express at 50th. For the rest of the ride, there were no locals to be seen cross-platform. And the creeping up the UWS didn't begin until 42nd.
1. Found out R142 will be delayed for how long? Don't know yet.
2. The building that is being built around the bumper block is a power station building.
3. The barn will not be upgraded.
4. The back yard is closed because I NEW BARN is being built there.
5. The new wash that's on the lead is only there on a temporary bases.
Thats all for now, will updated when I get more
Is that a hint that the R142 won,t be coming to the 7 line?
4. The back yard is closed because I NEW BARN is being built there.
then if the R142 do come to the 7 line,will they be housed in that new
barn?
til next time
This is not meant to be a flame, but I think the far more likely story is that the R-142 was never scheduled to operate on the (7) any time soon, especially not by March 2004, as was posted here...
Anyhow, thanks for the latest information.
Going to Main St it will say (This is a Queens Bound 7 (Local or Express) Train coming from the city.
Going to Main St from Queensboro Plaza it will say (This is a Flushing Main St. Bound 7 Train.
What does this impose to 1's view of the Yard from the US Open overpassageway?
Obstruction of the (visual) peace?
Of course, all this assumes a line gets built. There would be a lot of nimby opposition, I imagine, as well as the usual dceades of bureaucratic red tape before any train might start rolling.
Mark
And you'd still get some people against it, since in NYC for any plan there will be at least some people against it - but the oppisition would be small enough to overcome in these cases (if you're talking subways - if you're talking new Elevated Routes in residental area all bets are off).
1. It's easy for the "powers-that-be" to ignore the "outer" boroughs
2. (This is anecdotal, from conversations that I've had with people, but) people who live beyond the train want to remain so, because they believe that this will keep "them" [insert racial-ethnic-socio-economic group you fear most] out of their neighborhoods. (Good people drive, bad people ride the subway.)
3. (IMHO,) the above people are merely "biding their time" in said neighborhoods until they "trade-up" to "real" suburbs, so they have no interest in long-term-investment, or have moved in too recently to be politically organized to push for rail expansion.
4. Private transportation companies stand to lose from rail expansion and would be right to oppose it.
So, sorry, not in our lifetime.
Isaac
However, the region has more big mass transit projects underway today than at any time in many decades. It is not clear how even the current slate of projects will get paid for. Until that happens, these other ideas aren't going to get much traction.
Probably your most valid point is that the current slate of big projects doesn't do much to help the outer boroughs.
This is why rail transport will only work on those urban communites that have been abondoned like Downtown Jersey City before all the redevelopment. I can see an LTR in Flushing but your not about to move that line very far into the burbs unless there is an economic advantage. Many neighborhoods in Queens are residential and you cannot move an LTR into these small communities.
An LTR works well when the line ends in "Downtown".
As for those who want their ethnic group to remain the same, they will have to live with poor transportation options.
I have yet to see one post from you that ACTUALLY has something you can answer for. Every post you made is in the form of a question.
But after 9/11 with only Nassau Street service on 4th Avenue, and after the bridge swap with only BMT Broadway service at DeKalb, masses of people started changing from the BMT to the F train here. Even after the N and R were restored, the masses kept coming, to the point where if you are coming down the stairs in the AM you better run to get to the bottom before people start coming up, or you are trapped.
Will this continue after the bridge swap? Or will all the transferees be on the D? Your prediction?
If they're smart they'll take the D train at 36th or Pacific. I predict a great decline in the use of this transfer. When I ride the F train, I noticed that a lot of the people who make this transfer were on the train from above West 4th going into Brooklyn. Those people could easily get to the West end/4th avenue by transferring across the platform at a 6th avenue station.
I'm thinking that when 6th Avenue service is once again available on 4th Ave, fewer people will be hiking those steps.
The 4th Ave/IND platforms are in terible shape, try finding a dry spot when there is a heavy rainstorm, especially the Avenue X-bound side. The canopies are almost non-existent.
The main feature to which the main differences will be involved in subwaydomain.com is the auto load feature. No longer do people have to send e-mails to the webmaster and then the webmaster upload them. There will be a sign up system to which you will sign up, and then you can take pics, and load them into certain sections in the site. Say you want to contribute a pic of an R-62 for instance, you click into the R-62 section, click on contribute, log in, upload the pic, give the location etc etc. and poof the library is automatically updated. It will display who you are so there is authentication. There will be a seperate sections for peoples individual albums if they don't want to contribute to the sections of the site. I want to make this amateur subway photographer friendly. So that people can feel comfortable posting their pics without criticism, also giving the fans something back. So Monday, May 31st 2004. Subwaydomain.com comes to your home.
til next time
I missed the workshop, I'll probably write a letter at least, as I have been waiting for years for this. Plus i got a big mouth. Oh boy, it's gonna happen!!!!!!!!! There's also another article with a mention from FDOT saying there will be rail.
Wanted: Commuter-rail views
By Jeff Libby
Sentinel Staff Writer
February 15, 2004
Commuter trains could be the last ticket to less congestion on Interstate 4, state and local officials say, but only if they can persuade car-happy Central Floridians to park their vehicles and ride to work.
State transportation planners will have workshops in four counties this week to hear whether anyone wants the rail service.
Seminole's is scheduled for Wednesday from 5:30 to 7:30 p.m. in the Lake Mary Community Building, 260 N. Country Club Road, Lake Mary.
In the first phase of the commuter-rail proposal, the service would ferry workers between downtown Orlando and DeBary along existing rail lines. Building stations and improving the existing line would cost an estimated $155 million, state officials say.
If the rail is successful, the future could take the trains south of Kissimmee to Poinciana and north to DeLand.
But if the rail is to become a reality at all -- and it isn't scheduled to open for service before 2007 -- state and local governments will have to come up with $78.5 million, half the projected cost. The remaining expenses would be paid with federal money. Officials also would have to persuade an ailing rail company to make room for trains carrying people, even if freight is a more lucrative trade.
And then there is the troublesome culture issue.
"I was one of these guys, you know, you'll pry my car from my cold, dead hands," said Ken Shipley, chairman of the Osceola County Commission.
Lately, though, even as the state has slimmed down plans for the first phase of the rail system by eliminating trains to Kissimmee and DeLand, Shipley's support has grown. Now, he says, the rail system could help spur everything from a revitalization of downtown Kissimmee to a shift away from sprawl toward a seamlessly connected urban Central Florida.
Renzo Nastasi, chief transportation planner for Orange County, is less starry-eyed about the prospects of a commuter rail line. But right now, he said, there are few other alternatives to piling more cars onto I-4.
"The buses just get stuck with the cars," Nastasi said. "I think that's why commuter rail is starting to bubble to the top. There really isn't anything else out there."
Even with the apparent support from public officials, determining how to share the local cost of the rail could be a hurdle.
"The No. 1 question for Volusia County is what is going to be our cost share," County Council member Pat Northey said. In the past few months, planners dropped DeLand from the first phase. Northey and city leaders are pushing for a different location than the one remaining Volusia stop in DeBary.
Northey also questions the small number of riders projected by planners, though she, like Shipley, talks of the love Central Floridians have for their cars.
"Why in an area of 110,000 people and 35,000 cars leaving a day [for work], why are we talking about less than 800 riders [a day]?" she said.
Planners predict 189,771 riders daily by 2025, according to a state study of the project. But even that won't do much about congestion, because it is expected to cut daily vehicle miles along the I-4 corridor by about 1 percent.
"But these things [commuter railways] tend to become very popular, especially as the alternatives become more inconvenient," said Harry Barley, executive director of Metroplan Orlando, pointing to the success of similar systems in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, Maryland and Washington, D.C.
Mike Snyder, District 5 secretary for the Florida Department of Transportation, predicts commuter rail would eventually become indispensable.
"I-4 is just going to continue to get worse," Snyder said in a recent presentation to the Volusia County Council. "What needs to be stressed is the project's regional significance."
The projected costs of building the rail, however, continue to rise. A study by state transportation planners suggests that taxpayers may be asked to help pay to improve railways for CSX Transportation in order to persuade the rail company to make room for commuters, Barley said.
Such increasing costs and shaky support from other counties could erode support in Seminole County, said Alice Gilmartin, Seminole County's transportation specialist.
In May 2002, county commissioners supported a $46 million commuter rail demonstration project pushed by U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, Gilmartin said, but the cost has already tripled.
"The $46 million demonstration project was a low-budget attempt to get everyone on board," Gilmartin said. "It was a good effort, but it didn't happen. Everything got bogged down."
Gary Sease, a spokesman for Jacksonville-based CSX, said the Orlando-to-DeBary portion of the projectwould not go forward at all, at least not on CSX tracks, unless state planners find a way to offer commuter rail while also giving his company room to grow. As it is, Sease said, the railroad company can't find funds to maintain and build needed tracks.
"Commuter projects in general, they just look to covering our costs. Well, that's not entirely sufficient," said Sease. "We have to have a profit."
Sentinel staff writer Robert Perez contributed to this report.
Jeff Libby can be reached at jlibby@orlandosentinel.com
or 386-253-2316.
Copyright © 2004, Orlando Sentinel | Get home delivery - up to 50% off
Trying to get the traffic alon I-4 is a dead end. Why do you need to go there? The highway planners will use this logic to derail the commuter tain from ever getting to the table. The discussion should not go in this direction at all since there is no future for motoring as a viable and quick form of transportation. Getting involved in this argument is quite frankly, self defeating.
Planners should be more focused on real estate revitalization and tax revenue growth as a result of the new line. Developers should be brought into the picture with extensive plans for new office buidlings and small business.
You can even download all the studies and everything, the route has already been set for commuter and LRT. And with the tremendous growth downtown, it's going to happen. Tremendous as in at least a half a dozen towers set to be built.
It's really not if but when I think.
The other good news is unlike LRT, it's cheaper to try to make some deal with CSX and run trains on there(along with amtrak) than to build a new thing on I-4 row.
Specifically how they would do that deal, I haven't the slightest clue.
Mark
Does anyone know when I can hear Dianne Thompson ( does she really sound that horrible in real life?), and melissa kleiner ( Does she really sound like a little girl?) ? I'll also be listening for the 4 and 5 voices, to see if I can spot them
Tune in if you're bored!
--Mark
Here's a little known fact about Charlie Pellet that will probably blow you away. Charlie is British. No kidding. He dumped the British accent many years ago because he wanted to work in American broadcasting. This is a true story. He told me himself a few years back when I was Chief Engineer at Bloomberg Radio.
Regarding Jessica, she has a law degree, and has spent many years in NY Radio. At one time she was Music Director at WPLJ. At the risk of sounding a bit sexist, she is also a babe. She sat three desks away from me, and almost every guy on the floor had a thing for her at one time or another.
When you worked at bloomberg radio, did you get a chance to meet Melissa Kleiner (Does she really sound like a child), or anyone who could be some one the unidentified voices on the R142's ( Like The voices of the 4 and (new) 5, as well as the transfer announcements on the lex)
The one thing I do remember about the whole experience was going up to East 180th Street shops with several other people involved in the project so the MTA people could let us hear the announcements after they had been installed on the cars. What a cool experience. In receiving the grand tour of the R142's, I remember being pretty impressed with the technology and thinking how different the cabs were from the older cabs I had seen (R9's, R33-36's, R40's, etc).
Thanks for the info 600VDC! I thoroughly appreciate it :)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-02-18-traffic-usat_x.htm
Houston and LA had the worse bottlenecks
>>>>>No. 1 was the Ventura Freeway at Interstate 405 in Los Angeles, where commuters can face five hours of traffic jams daily<<<
This is unbelievable folks. How can anyone spend so much of their lives in traffic jams daily? It's insane. With gas prices set to go through the roof during the summer, how many hundreds of millions of gallons are being wasted in traffic jams?
OH. I forgot to mention. There were success stories where the solution involved spending billions on "New Tunnels" and "Interchanges". In other words, the answer is to simply build more highways!
Get this folks. This alliance is lobbying Congress for more money to build guess what? MORE HIGHWAYS!
Even though expensive, I do like the idea of sticking a highway underground still.
But a fall in the dollar and rise in import prices will affect the cost of one necessity -- energy. Specifically, oil. Especially if other countries, with rising currencies, can out bid us for the limited supply with their rising demand.
Still won't be a disaster, if you live in a modest house or apartment rather than having to heat and cool a mostly empty McMansion, and if you walk and use mass transit. The rest of the country may envy the Subway and rue the SUV yet.
We can win. Trade is lifting millions in China and India out of poverty. That productive potential will remain when we can't buy anymore on borrowed money. Their internal market could take off and pick up the slack. And there will be 2/5 of the world that isn't a hellhole with more and more desperately poor and sick people. And with their money, maybe they can afford to buy our food.
I'd call that a win.
What is especially good about it is that they are exporting mostly consumer goods that can later be sold to Chinese and Indians. The Arab nations never had any real economic development as a result of exporting oil. It just ended up in corruption.
Good observation. You still can't avoid the fact that everything else will go up besides the price of home heating oil. Everything you own has oil all over whether it's in the production, sales or transportation of the product.
Yes, that's right. In this dream, a friend of mine and myself were basically driving Metro (as in WMATA) trains in rough weather down a river. If you can imagine this, the trains had the doors open, and were submerged about 1/3 of the way up from the floor. My friend and myself were each commanding our own trains, and safely strapped in by way or some harness. And not in the cab, mind you. Oh, no. Actually in the area just behind the cab, between the first doors.
And we were paddling these trains down a river, in somewhat rough conditions. Why the trains were in the water, I don't know. Why they floated I also don't know, since I doubt that these Metro trains would float in real life.
And here's the really weird part. I, being new at this sport of boating with Metro trains and all, was driving a Breda down this mighty river. And in my dream, it was the original style Bredas, not the rehabilitated Bredas. And according to the dream, I was driving a Breda because Bredas were easier to handle. My friend, who in reality is less familiar with Metro than I am (it was an old JMU friend), was more experienced in the art of Metro-kayaking (the best term I can come up with for it). And because he was more experienced, he was paddling a Rohr train, which presumably was more challenging to handle than a Breda.
Additionally, in the dream, we took a break at some point, and got on a boat, which in the dream was basically the "home base" for our outing. Then as the weather got worse, my friend and I coupled our trains together, his Rohr train and my Breda train (his train of Rohrs was ahead of my train of Bredas in this consist), and went down the river together.
Again, I have NO idea how this dream came about. I don't know what I was thinking about or concerned with yesterday that turned trains that normally run on rails in Washington DC into basically big white-water rafting vehicles that float. And I don't know what made Rohrs more challenging to handle than Bredas. In reality, Rohrs are older trains, but they basically operate similarly. And I really don't know what brought this particular friend into the dream either, since I haven't seen this particular friend since late October.
Who knows.
That must have been one awesome dream. Maybe you'd been wondering earlier that day why Venice doesn't have a metro...
Mark
Whitewatering on a WMATA Metro
Whitewatering on a WMATA Metro
-from John Lennon & Paul McCartney, 1967
From one jump
From a second jump
From that same second jump
Doors open on all 3.
I'm allowed to do this on the simulator. :D
: )
Ben F. Schumin :-)
In keeping common practice, a sticker is placed over the existing strip map to update the transfer points below the stations. While the #5 line maps were corrected, the #4 line replacement stickers only covered the Brooklyn portion of the strip map, hence the return of B and D service at Atlantic Ave and the ommission of the W and N at Borough Hall and the W at Atlantic Ave. Did anyone forgot about Bleecker St? The sticker does not go to that station, so the transfer points still list as the F, V and (you guessed it), the S for the Grand St Shuttle.
So, no one at NYCT ever noticed the error when the stickers were affixed to the 4 line strip maps?
DUH!
But we are still cool, and it's all good.
Posted by Jeff W on Thu Feb 19 10:40:54 2004
" Interstate 595 was on the road to obsolescence not long after it opened in the early 1990s.
A decade later, officials are looking to ease east-west congestion with mass transit. They say even a major overhaul of I-595, with braided ramps, collector roads and express lanes, won't be enough to keep up with growing traffic demands.
The interstate is the spine of a proposed bus rapid transit or light rail line that would connect Sawgrass Mills, downtown Fort Lauderdale and the airport."
....
Thursday's workshop comes on the heels of a highly critical study released this week by a conservative Tallahassee think-tank that labeled light rail a financial disaster, with costs that far outweigh benefits.
The study by the James Madison Institute says rail transit may be one of the reasons why congestion in South Florida has grown so much in the past decade.
"Freeways are 10 times more cost-effective at moving people than Miami and Fort Lauderdale rail lines," said Randal O'Toole, the study's author.
"Rail transit gives limousine-priced rides to people, most of whom were previously riding buses."
The study suggests that high-occupancy toll lanes and bus-rapid transit are the solutions to the region's traffic problems and can be done much cheaper than light rail.
....
****
So, how does this wacko put out 5 "studies" at once in one week, meanwhile never visiting Miami. Any sane and competant person who's ever been a city rated in the top 5 for costs, danger to human life, and congestion and comes to that conclusion should be deemed mentally incompetant and placed in a home. Does he have any clue how much it costs to build another toll road in Miami??? BILLIONS
I'd like to see the populous laughing at the line freeways moving people. I have never seen a freeway move anyone down there.
Story here
project site
Mark
I wonder how the 300% increase in tri-rail ridership when double-tracking is completed will effect his "study"
BRT or LRT to sawgrass mills would be terrific.
http://www.lightrailnow.org/
There is an incredible story on LightRail now about the new LightRail developed in Tocoma. The new street car is attracting new commerce and real estate development all along Freighthouse Square (downtown) creating a booming business. Ridership on the line is years ahead of schedule and business are reporting 30 percent profit increases. The whole story is just amazing.
Folks. If a small town in Tocoma can do this, why can't New York City. I'm seeing new business sprouting up every other month along the HBLR line. The Tram is the biggest secret to the success of downtown Jersey City. There is no way a bus line could have done what the Lightrail was able to accomplish in the past several years.
It's time New York City abandon some of their bus lines and replace them with trams if just to stimulate real estate development.
Secondly, the Tacoma link is a poor example to show the sucess of Light rail. It cost some 80 million dollars, only runs 1.6 miles, and is nearly 1/3rd single tracked. I've heard no plans for Sound Transit to expand the service, outside of some talk of later attaching it to Central link (that is if that abortion of an LRT ever gets off the ground). However that'd make the Sounder between Tacoma and Seattle redundant, as well as requiring that the Kinki-Sharyo Central Link operate with the Skoda-Inekon Tacoma Link.
The only reason the Tacoma Link is experiencing the ridership it is getting is that it provides a free parking shuttle between the Park and Ride at the Tacoma Dome (which has free parking) and the downtown commercial district. If you give commuters the option of paying 10 dollars a day to park in the town, or the option of parking just outside town for free and taking the free trolley to your job, people will obviously take the free trolley. In this case the LRT could even be seen as possibly decreasing the effectiveness of the Sounder commuter rail, since again the free trolley is cheaper than riding the commuter train.
In the end Tacoma Link only benefits those people who drive into the city, while discouraging those who might get off the roads and take the Sounder train into the city.
Mark
There is no such thing as a "Free Trolley" in todays world. In fact, such a system would never pass in any city and you know that. Give me a break! As for the free parking, you can bet it will NOT be free forever. All the parking spots long the HBLR were free at one time. Not anymore.
While I have nothing against the Sounder commuter rail, it serves a different community. The Tocoma lightrail is a success becuase it is spurring new business just like the HBLR is doing today.
I happen to believe the costs associated with the LightRail are not out of this world. A lightrail system should cost about 100 million per mile and it's much better than a trolley system. A trolley could have been build for 25 million but you get what pay for.
If you could see how bad downtown Tacoma was about ten or fifteen years ago, ANYTHING is an improvement. That place had to be the filthiest, most rundown downtown area I have seen in any part of the USA. Itw as the armpit (better yet, the asshole) of Washington state.
LOL, good one . . . the first city of the USA to embrace buses should embrace streetcars again. That will not "stimulate real estate development", and besides, what real estate is available in the city? Not a square foot. How does one develop what is already developed? I'll see you in your cornfield at Times Square . . .
Exactly.
Good one. So there are no cornfields in Times Square, there are clearly opportunities in New York (Not New York City) where an LightRail would spur on development.
However, a few years back the USPS did a series of stamps commerating selected events/items of each decade in the 1900's. The 1950's set had a stamp honoring the subway series (baseball) and on that stamp they had the small "Y" cut token.
As for other philatelic related items, I am not aware of any (but then I haven't looked).
Good luck.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TRAVEL/02/19/bottleneck.study/index.html
*brings out the confetti* My area made it on the list!!!!!
They're working to correct it, for years, but I doubt it's going to make anything perfect. It's still cheaper to use the express buses than to drive that bottleneck route also.
Trying to get the traffic alon I-4 is a dead end. Why do you need to go there? The highway planners will use this logic to derail the commuter tain from ever getting to the table. The discussion should not go in this direction at all since there is no future for motoring as a viable and quick form of transportation. Getting involved in this argument is quite frankly, self defeating.
Planners should be more focused on real estate revitalization and tax revenue growth as a result of the new line. Developers should be brought into the picture with extensive plans for new office buidlings and small business.
You can even download all the studies and everything, the route has already been set for commuter and LRT. And with the tremendous growth downtown, it's going to happen. Tremendous as in at least a half a dozen towers set to be built.
It's really not if but when I think.
The other good news is unlike LRT, it's cheaper to try to make some deal with CSX and run trains on there(along with amtrak) than to build a new thing on I-4 row.
Specifically how they would do that deal, I haven't the slightest clue.
Mark
On AE's they've now standardized so that the Quiet Car is always the Business Class car directly adjacent to the First Class car. And QCs are now on trains seven days a week; up until recently it was only Monday to Friday.
Isaac
Any other noteworthy movies that might be missing from Dave's comprehensive list?
Could any movie with, say, at least 5 seconds' footage of subway cars or tracks in it qualify?
-Adam
(allisonb500r@aol.com)
post any more differences
Also, the handles of the doors between cars are different on the R142 and R142A. The R142A handls are more old-fashioned and sculpted, but the R142 handles look like they're cut out of sheet metal.
I didn't know that! Thanks.
R142/Bombardier: 1101-1250, 6301-7180
R142A/Kawasaki: 7211-7730
til next time
Ask the lady who has the baby stroller...
No. One conductor does not equal 4 or 6 or 8 conductors. Yes, technology eliminated the necessity of one conductor per car. Or one per every two cars. I don't want the gal "driving" the train having to worry about accidentally closing the doors on someone's baby carriage. Too many people, too many chances for mishaps. She should be allowed to concentrate on the train operation. I think it's an optimal solution: one conductor per subway train.
Most other heavy-rail ATO systems are only 4-6 cars, IIRC.
All of these problems are better done with a CCTV camera system than is done with a person sticking his head out of the middle of the train.
Hey great, lets spray paint those cameras, and smash those monitors!
Hey, critical stuff like door safety cannot be left to such unreliable services as TV monitors.
Besides which, some dork will come by and switch the channel to Mornk and Mindy!
: 0 Elias
C/R's are pretty redundant, and are replaceable by the train operator+CCTV.
p.s.: Sorry, Netscapers
HUH?
It worked Perfectly on my Netscape 7.1
: ) Elias
Thank God. Don't these people realize that 50 percent of private workers have no pension plan at all, and most of the rest only have defined contribution plans that don't pay until age 62? Don't they realize that Social Security and Medicare can only be financed with a 30 percent payroll tax in 2030, even though those of my generation cannot retire until age 67? And they want to retire at age 50 and be supported by the rest of us for the rest of their lives?
Forget the state constitution, it can change. When the shit hits the fan for the rest of America, pensioned public employees will be lucky not to end up hanging from lamposts. Best not to be greedy on this of all issues.
Economics aside, 50 - or, for that matter, 55 - is simply too young to retire. Most people at that age are still physically capable of working at almost any job. Or, put differently, it would be a total waste to put them out to pasture as if they're old and feeble.
I will not opt in but if you are paying the extra 6% out of your own pocket for 20 years you should have the option to retire early. Some of the other Unions have 20 and out.
Anyone has the option of saving more money on their own and using the investment income to retire early. Why do they want the pension plan involved? Because the six percent isn't enough to cover the plan, and others will have to pick up the tab, that's why.
They are saying otherwise. They are lying. Just like they were back in 2000, when they said that the pension enhancements passed that year would be "free."
And yes I know that in addition to union members WITH SENIORITY taking advantage of a stock market bubble to reduce their contributions (but only for those with more than 10 years in) and inflate their pensions, the politicians took advantage of it cut the employer contributions to the plans to cut taxes, increase spending, and stoke their (false) popularity. "Everybody" wins. And now, everybody loses, except retired civil servants and politicians who do not face competition for office.
Are you kidding? You must have it tied into the pension otherwise all your additional contributions get refunded to you and you have a tax nightmare.
While not an actuary I did crunch some numbers. 5.5% for 20 years is enough to pay for itself. The problem came in with the start up (much like Plato it would require the big lie), by forgiving the current members of prior contributions the plan was set up to go to red in 7-8 years. Now they are talking about going to 6% and getting a credit for certain other payments that were made and the fund looks more viable. I don't have a floating average of RoRs but the model does change if you use 10, 20 or 30 year average RoR for your assumptions. Believe me, I was the only person at the January divion meeting who had numbers to back up that 5.5% did not work.
I was prepared to ask the pension guy some questions about RoR assumptions at our divisional meeting but he was called in to another meeting.
If the government actively looked to pay raises in pension improvements instead of giving raises that is not the fault of the people getting paid. It was fiscally dishonest to pay raise based on a double or nothing bet on the stock market. But then when things are good, taxpayers do not want to put some aside for a rainy day either.
It's not the fault of future citizens of the city either, or those of us disenfranchised by the 98 percent re-election rate in state government.
As long as the government hands out more compensation in the form of non-work -- shorter careers, more sick leave, job protection for shirkers, etc. -- instead of higher pay, it will continue to have both high labor costs AND pay levels that do not attract qualified employees. It's tough to pull those off at the same time. We've managed.
And less generous pensions FOR FUTURE EMPLOYEES (Again!) won't help either.
Why do the voters keep returning the same people to office?
Have you read the OPTO agreement?
BTW look at Chapter 6 in the new rulebook, that is where the rules are for ATO/CBTC.
Rules are one thing, and contracts are another.
Rules are binding on you the operators, specifying how to do a certain job.
Contracts are binding on the employers, specifying who should do certain jobs (among other things as well.)
I can write a RULE on how a certain line will be operated when new technology becomes effective, but the contract that we have says that I will thus and many people to operate this train.
Elias
In fact the language on job security was weakened.
I guess you are not an employee and know neither the rules or the contract, Chapter 6 is an inside joke.
And if ya chips in, I'll see about getting Westcode that rubber french maid's costume. Heh. Just remember that every third el pillar is made of rubber, and there was no reason behind those rulebooks where pages can be swapped out, "as if by sheer wizardry." Superceded by bulletin "whoopsie" ...
Can't wait to see how long this whole OPTO spree lasts until the 1-800-IBESUED people notice. :)
At one point Sept 04 was the target date.
During a recent (non holiday) WEEKEND visit to Hoboken, I was set in mind
that after the 3:25 Suffern train, the next was not until 6-something....
Fine. Understandable for a SUNDAY. Port Jervis Line.
But the Departure Boards revealed to me a 4:25 to Suffern and
a 5:15 to Suffern................. neither train NOT MENTIONED in the (non-Holiday WEEKEND) pink paper timetable!!
I took the 4:25...... and sure enough! It stopped at Mad Mark Feinman's posh hometown!!
That Monticello Letter-writing Mommy got told a fishie tale....
Kool-D should pour some tuna oil on her.
There are MORE frequent trains on that line.... Sally just has to put down Jeffy's creme brulee long enough
to read the departures boards.
I can't speak for how NJT operates today, but many years ago I helped analyze data related to Pennsylvania Railroad passenger movements in the 1920s. Nearly one third of their passenger operations were non-scheduled. Extra trains would be added based on demand, often on the spur of the moment from major terminals; other extra trains would run with a full crew (as opposed to deadheads) if there was even minimal demand and the equipment needed to be moved elsewhere for a scheduled trip. Heavy demand inbound to NYC from Philadelphia, for example, might mean that extra trains were required; those trains might then return to Philadelphia as extras, even if demand wasn't significant simply because they needed to be positioned in Philly for the next day's regular schedule or anticipated demand. There were also a number of extras that were actually scheduled trains, simply not published in the public timetables; these trains included such things as advance sections of major trains, departing the terminal five minutes ahead of the advertised schedule and carrying only passengers bound for selected stations at or beyond the mid-point of the scheduled run (but not, ordinarily, for the terminal). They would also have most of the baggage and mail cars, thereby permitting all but the last-minute checked baggage for the terminal station and selected intermediate stations to be handled before the passengers arrived.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Arti
Anyway, you are right. It would have been the right thing to do, especially since NJ Transit is trying to promote the convenience of Secaucas Junction, and this goes against everything they are promoting. For the most part, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing at NJ Transit. The "Newark Division" is separate from the "Hoboken Division", and never the twain shall meet. HOWEVER, if an NJT boss was on that train out of New York and wanted that Port Jervis train, you know damn well they would have held the train.
'Mom...we were on the platform..and the train closed its doors on us...honestly!'
Agreed. There's no reason to go out and get yourself in debt by owing the bank thousands of dollars because you missed a train. All they have to do is move to the city where we have excellant transportation. I'm sure there is a bus line they could have used as alternative if they only called NJ transit that would have brought them within walking distance of their destinatin. If I miss the HBLR or the V train, there's another one within fifteen minutes. All these folks in the burbs who think they can have good public transportation into the city from NJ are kidding themselves.
Have you considered that maybe they live in Monticello because they can't afford to live in the city or its suburbs?
What drove me out of the city wasn't fear, but just plain exhaustion over all the nonsense I had to live with and the city just eating up any chance to try to get ahead ... every time I made more money, landlord took it, "Pioneer markets" took it, the CITY took it. The faster I danced, the lesser I gotted. Now granted, being shot by a moron on my way home from work was the final straw, but it was the insane fast pace to just stand still that did it for me. Wasn't the crime, wasn't my neighbors, it was just the "rat race" ... like Looto, if there was a chance to WIN at the rat race, I'd probably still be there, but decided after doing cross-country and no matter where else I went, NEW YORK was "home", that maybe it was time to find a "quiet space" ... moved upstate, don't regret it a bit.
It's one thing to split to the "sheltered, lily white communities" in the 'burbs ... it's trying to have the frenetic pace of the city without those awful minority type individuals who might rob ya. :)
Doesn't MATTER that the reality is every time *I* got mugged, got mugged by WHITE PEOPLE, and morons at that - and the majority of crime in "da hood" is black vs. black, people want to live their tired old stereotypes and flee to the 'burbs for that "safer family upbringing fustercluck of republican registration ... but hey! Surprise! Suburbs and farmlands of upstate has black people too. Heh.
Anyhoo, despite my jests, the reason why people live 90 miles or more from the city is that (ESPECIALLY if you don't "commute") you can have a MUCH better quality of life if peace and serenity's your thing than having to deal with the madness and pace of living in the city and not doing much better. And while rural areas such as mine *thuck* for services, if you have the ability to create your own gig, then the quality of life is OK. No bright lights, no "Lion Kink" and no D train, but I can sleep DAMNED good.
A few subtalkers have been out here ... do I lie? Can you re-describe your emotions when you woke up at 10:30 in the morning and wondering HOW the hades you slept until 10:30? :)
Suburbs and the mentality that drive people there are one thing, "out in the sticks" is something entirely else. Works for me at least.
A few subtalkers have been out here ... do I lie?
No, you don't lie, except for the lights. Too many city folks have moved to the rural areas and installed floodlights for "security". Can you see as many stars as you could 20 years ago? I bet not.
Like I said, only a matter of getting far enough out into the woods that you can't *SEE* any neighbors, much less hear their screams. Heh. But yeah, I get me a DEEP chuckle when they talk about Ellenville, Middletown, Poughquag and others as being "da sticks." Heh. Out where *I* am *is* sticks. Back when there WAS an economy, I bought 7.5 acres of forest with a house and a clearing in it. Since I've owned it, the forest is closing in (and that's the way I like it) ... we've got what is called a "high meadow" of wildflowers, scallions and other native flora, about 700 new trees I've planted, wild grapes ("In Vino Veritas") and more critters than you can shake a blunderbus at. But then, subdivisions are ruled OUT of the local zoning - you either have a farm, or you have a cult, no developers allowed. Makes a difference.
The LOCALS bought up the abandoned farms and have highly restrictive codicils regarding "sub-division" ... either you buy the FARM, OR you buy the farm. I *like* my farm. Former sheep meadow. We don't NEED "chem-lawn" heah ...
(on-topic alert!)
We used to have passenger train service here back when the Delaware and Hudson D&H RR) was still alive ... but alas, all we have left is 9 miles of track DESIGNED for arnines to prance along, but it's abandoned, about to be "overgrown" and no trains to run on it. You KNOW you're properly "out of the way" when not ONLY doesn't a TRAIN go there, but you can't find a *BUS* to go there either. :)
Mommy should be proud that Jeffie and Sally did the RIGHT THING by
literally STANDING CLEAR OF THE CLOSING DOORS........ !!
A person from the Pt. Jervis area who isn't used to transit and seldom comes into the city might have no idea that there are buses serving the route.
I went to public hearings in Tuxedo (and got off the train there). I'd stay late, have a meal with my friends then catch Short Line back to the Port Authority. But it wasn't in Tuxedo, it was actually further south, toward Suffern. It was $12
I really have to look at the maps when I post on this stuff.
There is another Hawthorne Station, in New Jersey, right?
Weekdays I tend to see them average 1 train per 60 to 90 minutes coming out of Hoboken...
Weekends I see them once or twice every 2 hours.... (some trains arent even
listed on the schedule-- yet they're shown on the departure boards)
And if the 4-hour gap only occurs at LATE NIGHT hours then what in Carmen Sandiego's world
where these two "civil" college kids doing out THAT late an hour?
And what's to say they weren't in their first train "fooling around" when all of a sudden they realized that they had to transfer and jumped out of the train at the last possible second.
This thread is starting to sound like the one in BusTalk involving that pansy "M4".
Bingo. You stole my thunder.
This woman just wanted to complain about the trains. That's all.
The bottom line. These kids are eventually going to get cars since they live in the burbs. They will eventually spend the rest of their lives paying off new car loans and expensive insurance rates.
Forget these folks and just get your Unlimited Metrocards.
I knew that "4-hour gap" gagga wasn't authentic for a Junction as serene as Secaucus.
Thanks investigative brahs!
I knew that "4-hour gap" gagga wasn't authentic for a Junction as serene as Secaucus.
Thanks investigative brahs!
Ya know...not to drag this thread into an unpleasant tangent but...enough with that. What is wrong with admitting that others [read:white people] can also be poor? I'm really sick of that snide type of comment. It's an insult to poor white people when that type of statement is made. It's stuck-up classist bigots who do so. Like the're saying, "Only non-white people can be allowed to be poor; those whites that are poor, well, it's all their own fault. They are beneath my consideration. Now, those noble non-white poor people, ah, that's a different story. THEY can have their dignity. The poor white folk? Hell, les' goof on `em."
Again, classist nonsense. Statistical nonsense. Bigoted nonsense. And I ain't even gonna get into the other aspect of that statement. You know what I'm talking about. "All da white folk WHO AIN'T POOR will ALWAYS seek to avoid other demographic groups. It's FINE AND DANDY to have a generalized, biased view of their supposed mindsets. After all, they're WHITE FOLK WHO AIN'T POOR. Why, I'm so sure of that, I feel comfortable with justifying my insulting remarks."
Sorry, but that is a biased logic from a prejudiced upbringing. What I'm saying is...the world is bigger, and insanely more complex than that comfortable limited p.o.v.
Don't forget, the NYC suburbs themselves support a substantial non-white middle class population. So these people in that letter could have easily been black or Hispanic. Or Asian. And if so, if they were black, a statement such as "far away from the city with all of those unwashed [read:non white] people..." is off the mark.
It's kool to show your angst; it sucks that you threw in an unwarrented dig against "white folk" in order to sound, I don't know, righteous or something. But what the hell should I expect anyway. Been hearing generalized anti-white crap like that all my life. And I'm supposed to "understand" the rationale.
Well, chinga that. I don't "understand". Just like I don't "understand" why more times than I can count I have heard youts racially insulting "funny-lookin'" elderly white folk on buses and trains. That's prejudiced behavior (no doubt heard from their prejudiced parents)...is it what I'll have to look forward to when I get older? Youngens' making fun of my old pale ass, calling me hateful things? Simply because I'm white?
All I know is, when I turn 70 I'm gettin a piece...
Note: Think about India, and the Untouchable caste.
Bill "Newkirk"
I said this before that the proposed new proposed WTC buildings mimic collapsing with their slanted roofs. UGH !
Bill "Newkirk"
Where is the rebuilt Hudson Terminal?
This would never happen. You can really be a pessimist at times.
I am convinced that if the 9/11 attacks had destroyed a skyscraper in Houston or Atlanta or even Chicago, just to name a few, construction of the replacement would be well underway today.
Construction of replacement structures has already began. Look at 7 WTC. Has not construction started there? The problem with the World Trade Center main site is the fact that everyone is screaming with no one listening. If the powers the be were really listening, We'd have 2 tall towers not some dinky building with a mast on top. I must admit, Childs's design is markedly better than Libeskind's.
All this absurd childish squabbling among the city and other parties does not bode well for the site's future.
As far as my pessimistic outlook is concerned, I would suggest repeating the term "Second Avenue Subway" a couple of times. It's pretty hard to maintain a sunny outlook after that :(
I wish soooo much that the towers would be rebuilt. But they won't be. We'll just have to be content with the crap they choose to build.
The main problem with your proposal, and the reason why it wasn't chosen to begin with, is that there's no commercial demand for space a hundred stories up. The people who want the Twin Towers rebuilt aren't the ones who would sign leases to actually work or live there.
I disagree with that. Around the world buildings with space much higher than that original towers are going up.
Additionally, if you look at their plan, It could be years before any space above 70 floors would be built.
How many examples can you name that were started after 9/11/01? In any event, those other places aren't renowned terrorist targets. Every study done in New York after 9/11 showed that there wasn't commercial demand for recreating the Twin Towers.
Anyow, the decision—even if it turns out to have been wrong—has been made. It's time to get over it.
This viewpoint does not make your opinion more valid when talking about the vast majority of workers who DID NOT work in the Twin towers.
They don't even have to look like the old ones, or be as tall. If only these morons could understand that there needs to be TWO of them.
Now Joseph Brennan has to update his Master Map at columbia.edu.
I was at 370,,yesterday,,they had box after box of NEW Maps
steve
I'll head there tomorrow morning.
Bill "Newkirk"
Which one of you grabbed them all?
I find it very difficult to believe that the initial supply they had was exhausted by railfans or the general public.
Maybe they weren't supposed to put them out until Sunday.
Considering they printed 2 million I can wait a few days before getting mine.
And on the front, while the year is prominently displayed, the month is only mentioned in the fine print. I don't think that's wise even if no service changes are planned for later in the year, and in fact a significant service change is planned for May.
Otherwise, it looks good.
There is?
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
With pleasure, sir! Click below and ye shall find it.
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
One thing I find tacky: saying the B runs "8 PM to midnight" when the last train is around 9:30 PM.
A few days ago, I asked for the new map at my station (110th St-Broadway), and I was given a micro-size folding map/Metrocard holder combo. This has different graphics from the full-sized map, and on the railroad side, the Flatbush Av. bubble has the correct train routes (i.e. B and D, and no W).
Also, the MTA, on its website, says that they will be publishing a commemorative map showing 1904 service sometime early in 2004. Anyone know anything more about this, such as when it's expected to appear?
Thanx,
Bob
Bill "Newkirk"
1. Transit Museum on Saturday afternoon
2. First D train over the bridge (to be announced no later than Friday at 10:30 PM)
3. Eating with Allied Forces
4. First N train at 5:30 AM over the bridge on Sunday morning
Anything else you need to know, my email is open on this message only.
J
Try and figure out what the C/R is saying here. Recorded off an exterior speaker on R-62 #1451.
The exterior speakers are just as bad as those inside.
Were the R-62 speakers ever this bad right from the beginning?
My understanding is that when they were installed, the amplifiers were not replaced, so the original amplifiers are driving more speakers than they were when new. I don't have specs on the amplifiers, so I don't know whether they're being overtaxed, but it might be at least part of the problem (if there is one -- I don't think the exterior speakers are all that bad).
David
If I ever have to take a 2/3 from Hoyt St-Fulton Mall, I sometimes get a R62 and I've grown used to the garbled mess that comes over the PA.
In any case, the R62 would rank lowest in my list of rolling stocks. If it's not the PA system, it's the incredibly dim lighting. Bombardier certainly scored high on the R62A. That's why I'm happy the 7 has them instead of those bad R62's. :)
Had I pointed it a little farther away, the sound would be more faint, but the sound of the feedback would certainly dominate the sound of the C/R's voice.
"Echo Davidoff" Item number: 2226860444
Check those readers !
Bill "Newkirk"
Please e-mail me your e-mail address so I can send to you for your review.
Thanks!
Michael Calcagno
subwaymap@comcast.net (This is temporary e-mail address for few days)
Today it is a little more on Old Man Winter. Or perhaps we call this, a
real snow job.
Greetings all, as you can see I'm a little behind on getting this one out.
I took several vacation days and made off for Grand Rapids, MI. My cousin
Tony and I headed up there to participate in the festivities of the
American Hockey League's All Star Classic weekend. We attended the skills
competition on Sunday night and of course, the game on Monday night. We
also took part in some of the other activities as well. Some of which
included the consumption of fermented, yeasty, malted beverages and also
the opportunity to meet and talk with some of the players. We even managed
to get ourselves on television there. Oh yes, a good time was had. How
could I not have fun? It involved hockey and one of the five basic food
groups for railroaders, alcohol.
But now we're back and ready, well just about required to get back into the
swing of things so here we go.
In our last exciting episode I discussed the bitter cold weather and how it
wreaks havoc on the rail industry. This time we are going to deal with a
little snow. Well actually, were going to deal with a lot of snow. Let's
make that tons of snow. While a little bit of snow usually doesn't pose
much of a threat to railroading, when we begin to get significant
accumulation of that powdery white stuff, it can make the most fluid
operation go straight down the toilet. And for today's lesson we are going
to go back in time to my days on the MoPac. It seems that back then, winter
was still hitting us each year with great vengeance.
In the winter of 1978-79, this also happened to be my first winter on the
railroad; it started to snow one afternoon. This was no particularly big
deal as we had already had several snowfalls this season. As it happened, I
was called to work an afternoon extra job at Yard Center at 1500. Actually,
I got called very late, like about 1420 to work it. One guy that had
already taken the call to work it phoned in informing them he had been
arrested and tossed in the slammer, so he would not be able to attend the
festivities. I got the very late call and eventually headed to work. The
snow began to fall as I was on my way to work and the system producing it
seemed to be gaining steam as the afternoon wore into evening.
We have this big pond here around Chicago and Northwest Indiana called Lake
Michigan. On occasion, the big pond becomes the massive snow factory and we
get dumped upon big time. When the winds are right and there is a weather
system producing snow, the "Lake Effect" takes control and we get blasted.
In 1967 we got over 23 inches of snow in one felled swoop. Ye ha! I was in
grade school then and we wound up getting several days off over that one.
By the winter of 1978-79 I had grown into a big kid and a little, or a lot
of snow was not supposed to matter. As an alleged grown up, I was not
supposed to let snow interfere with the vital necessities like going to
work. Little did I know that this storm would be the beginning of the one
of the worst winter seasons in the history of this region, or perhaps the
nation as many parts of the country seemed to get blasted with a serious
dose of winter?
The snow began to fall with much more vigor and it was really starting to
pile up. A fair amount of snow causes a great deal of problems with
railroading as I was quickly learning in my new career. The snow was
plugging up the switches in the yard. We would take switch brooms, made
with metal instead of straw and sweep the snow out of the switch points
(the moveable rail of the switch). One move made over that switch would
quickly fill it right back in with more snow. This meant that every time we
rolled any locomotive or cars over it, they would push snow right back into
the switch. And this meant we had to sweep it out again and again.
Back to the switch brooms for a moment; these brooms have metal instead of
straw as I mentioned. Each strand of metal on the broom head is much
thicker than straw and far more rigid. Straw will not hold up against snow
and also will not push it around as well. The metal does a much better job.
The opposite end of the switch broom has a scraper made of metal, looking
sort of like an ice scraper you would use on your cars windows. This
scraper end is used to scrape packed in snow and ice out of the switch.
In cleaning out the switch when there are significant amounts of snow, you
need to thoroughly clear the snow out of the switch points and also the tie
plates and area around the opposite side of each point. In addition, you
also need to clear the snow from around the base of the switch stand, the
switch rod that connects the switch stand to the switch itself and also the
bridle bar which connects the switch points themselves. Snow builds up
under, on top of and around all of this apparatus and when it packs in
there can make the switch next to, if not completely impossible to operate.
Now some guys will try to operate a switch when there is some accumulation
in the points without cleaning the snow or ice out first. And more often
than not, their only success is in creating more work. In trying the points
to fit up snug against the stock rail, they will pack that snow or ice in
there. This snow pack usually prevents the switch from being able to line
all the way over. Usually either the handle will not go all the way into
the fully lined position or, it will go over with a huge fight but then
leave a gap in the switch points.
When a switch is gapped, there is just that, a gap between the points and
the stock rail in which they fit against. If allowed to proceed over this
gap, a derailment could occur. The flange of the wheel can easily fit in
between the gapped switch points literally separating the points from the
stock rail. This is often referred to as "splitting the switch." The wheels
will then attempt to follow the path of least resistance until they run out
of rail and then drop off onto the ground.
If you try to line the switch with snow in it and cannot succeed, you have
to restore it back to the route it was lined before you began this
operation and then get the broom and clean it out. Of course now you have
all that stuff packed in there good and tight and you'll have to work your
butt off to get it cleared out. And sometimes that broom is not good
enough. Sometimes you have to get some heat into the thing to help melt and
clear out the ice and really hard packed snow. This usually requires the
use of fusees (flares). You have to light a fusee or two and use them like
a torch back and forth in the areas where the snow has packed in there to
melt it out.
Ah yes, there's nothing like the fragrant aroma of sulfur burning at
extremely high temperatures to clean out the sinuses. And of course being
that this is actually now a stick of molten sulfur you have in your hand,
it certainly has an incredible effect when the drippings from it splash
onto you gloves, clothing or boots. This burning stick of chemistry set is
also extremely bright as it burns. So after carefully watching what you are
doing so as to not burn or incinerate yourself, you now have case of
"fusee" blindness as it were. You really cannot see very well, if at all
for a few moments, particularly if it is dark out.
So after using high temperatures and back breaking labor to clear out the
switch, you get it to line over for your route. Now just imagine having to
put forth this effort every time you need to operate a switch. As I'm
certain you have already surmised, this additional activity begins to slow
the pace of the operation to a crawl.
As I mentioned, sometimes you will get a gap in the switch points even
after clearing all of the snow out. This tends to occur quite often under
such weather conditions. If a section man (Track Department worker) is
handy, he can usually lend some assistance in getting the gap cleared up.
Usually a few whacks with a spike maul against the stubborn point will move
it over enough to close the gap. Should that fail, it may require
"excavation" of the snow from the switch which may take some time.
If no section man is available and the gap is not too great, you can
attempt to use the flange of the wheels to force the stubborn point into
submission. In this case you very slowly move your engine or cut of cars up
against the switch points. I mean very, very slowly. What you are trying to
do is have the flange catch the switch point and then shove it against the
stock rail to close the gap. To put this move into perspective, this can be
akin to using a 32 oz ball peen hammer to make a precision adjustment to
the remote control on your television. When it works, you'll usually take
the first entire car over the switch point very slowly to make certain you
have that point pushed up snug against that stock rail. If you don't and
you pick up speed too quick, the cars, they go kerplunk.
In years past whenever the weather went to hell, the railroad would usually
bring in a supply of section men and their foremen to be on hand to assist
you in clearing out switches. Oftentimes they would assign a guy to your
job and he stayed with you all day or all night to lend a hand in clearing
out the switches and making any adjustments as necessary. Of course in the
present time we are providing for all of those widows and orphans that own
all the stock instead of taking care of the operation. The industry tends
to have far less people during the worst part of the winter to assist than
in my early years on the job.
It used to be that once a gang of section men would clear out all of the
switches on the lead, they used to place smudge pots filled with fuel oil
under the switch points and then light them. These smudge pots created heat
which helped melt the snow and ice that was getting forced into the switch
points by train movements or that was still falling from the heavens above.
Unfortunately, this was not one of the safest methods available of snow
fighting available. Back in the days they were still being used, I
witnessed several of them actually blow up from overheating. Fortunately
though, in all of the times I observed such an explosion, nobody ever got
injured or killed. Today, the use of smudge pots in this manner is against
the rules. I have not seen them being used since the early 80's, so I'm
guessing the rules were changed back then.
The snow was continuing to fall at a rapid rate and quickly accumulating.
Switches were filling up and walking areas were becoming treacherous. The
operation was slowly grinding down to a crawl. Not only our assignment but
all the other assignments were also facing this weather problem. We worked
twelve hours and went dead.
The snow let up some giving the maintenance of way crews a chance to catch
up. That following evening was a Friday and the snow was coming down full
force for quite some time already when I took my call to work the 1130 lead
job in 8 Yard. It was an adventure getting to work as the roads were in
terrible shape. In those days I had a four wheel drive truck as I used to
off road as a hobby. This truck was the reason I was able to get to work
that winter. I made it when most others couldn't.
Upon my arrival at work that evening, there was already chaos. This latest
blast of winter was now piled up on top of the significant snowfall we
received the previous evening. Bill Adams, the Chicago Division Roadmaster
had his gang of section men working like ants trying to battle the effects
of the storm. An attempt was made to use intense heat to clear the snow
away. The decision was made to fire up the old weed burner and the
Maintenance of Way forces were using this machine in the attempt to burn
the snow away.
For those of you unfamiliar with this machine, the weed burner did just
that, burned weeds. This piece of on track machinery would roll along the
right of way with burners using superheated air to literally scorch the
weeds, brush and other growth along the right of way into oblivion. As a
kid living along side the old New York Central, I vividly recall seeing one
of these machines in action every summer. This machine would roll along the
main track which ran along side our house. Actually it wasn't right along
side; it was about one hundred feet or so from the house. Anyway, we would
be in the backyard as the weed burner rolled by doing its thing. From the
hundred feet or so away that we were located from this machine, we could
easily feel the heat being generated.
Generally there were not actual balls of fire coming out of the tubes at
the rear of the weed burner, but the heat being created was doing quite the
number on everything it encountered. I've heard stories from old machine
operators of starting all kinds of fires along the right of way, including
a few ties here and there. I'd be willing to bet a few employees also
received some burns. These reasons were probably enough to get the weed
burners banned over twenty years ago.
While the initial effects were readily apparent after the passing of the
weed burner, several days later you could really observe the final
objective of the operation. The area along the right of way would turn
brown as everything was thoroughly burned out. This was not your typical
brush fire; intense searing heat had been applied literally scorching
everything in its path. The weeds did not grow back for the most of the
entire summer and early fall.
Talk about a scorched earth policy.
So the weed burner was being used in the attempt to blast the snow out the
switches. They did have some success in using it, but this was the weed
burner's last hurrah as it was dismantled the following summer.
Back in those days, the hurricane jet blower that so many railroads operate
today was a relatively new tool in battling snow. MoPac did not have one
assigned to Chicago. I'm not certain they even owned one at all in 1979.
The Louisville & Nashville did have one and it was located in Evansville,
IN. Being that Yard Center was a joint agency with the L&N the jet blower
was summoned for assistance. The snow problem in Chicago would also create
problems for the L&N so it was in their best interest to lend their jet
blower to the MoPac.
The jet blower uses a jet engine, hence the name. The engine is mounted on
the front of the machine with the back of the engine or exhaust end facing
out. On the back end of the engine is a moveable hatch. This hatch may be
raised and lowered and also pivoted from side to side as well to adjust the
direction of the exhaust and heat generated from the revving jet engine. An
incredible amount of exhaust gas and heat is generated. I was told
something like 10,000 cubic feet of air per minute came blasting out of the
chute. Herein lies one of the drawbacks of the jet blower. It will send
loose objects lying along the right of way hurtling through the air be it
ballast, spikes, tie plates and even old brake shoes. One guy I worked with
had the windshield on his car broken when the jet blower threw an old brake
shoe lying on the ground into the air. When the brake shoe landed, it did
so with a direct hit on this guy's front windshield.
We affectionately dubbed this machine the 747. Whether it was idling or
being used at high speed rpm's for the service in which it was designed, it
sounded exactly like what it was; a jet engine. If you closed your eyes and
listened, you'd think you were at the airport listening to planes taking
off. And then there was that familiar smell of jet fuel and exhaust.
The exhaust of the jet blower will both blast snow and ice away and also
melt what remains behind. Nobody is allowed to be in front of or near the
sides of the blower for this reason. Unfortunately though, when melting
everything in its path, the now liquefied snow and ice does not all blow
completely clear of the switches. Some of that liquid will drain back into
the switch area and as it is exposed to the cold temperatures will begin to
freeze. When this occurs, the switches will then freeze up solid requiring
yet more assistance from the section crews.
"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Or maybe
better yet, "One step forward, two steps back."
Some railroads have employed the use of "mini" blowers as it were. This a
length of hose with a glad hand on one end to allow it to be connected to
one of the multiple unit main reservoir lines on the end of a locomotive,
The other end is connected to a length of pipe with a valve affixed. By
adjusting this valve allows for the employee using it to regulate the air
flow or stop it all together. The use of main reservoir air from a
locomotive, usually in the 130 to 140 psi range, through this hose and pipe
provides for pretty constant supply of air to blow snow out of switches.
Such an arrangement is often used in remote or outlying locations where
section men are not readily available. While not always as effective as the
jet blower, these blowers do lend quite a hand when clearing out switches.
Some switches, normally remotely controlled power switches or main track
spring switches will employ the use of permanent heating devices. There are
several different types of heaters used. Some employ the use of heated
forced air. A heater fired by natural or LP gas uses a high velocity fan to
push this heated air through duct work that aims it at the switch points
and other hardware to melt snow and ice allowing for continued operation of
the switches even in the most adverse of weather conditions.
Another type of weather beater is the switch burner. This method uses gas
fired heaters mounted along side the rails. A series of gas jets along the
length of the heater cabinets ignite and provide a steady flame which then
heats up the stock rails and switch points melting the snow and ice away
from the moveable parts of the switch.
There is also an electric heater that uses electrical energy to operate it.
This heater uses elements mounted on the rails that will glow when
electricity is applied which, like the burners, heats up the rails to melt
away the snow and ice.
These switch heaters or burners can be operated either manually or
automatically. In most cases they are operated by a Control Operator,
Dispatcher or even a train crew. The manually operated ones are usually
done so by a Control Operator or Dispatcher operated by entering a code
into their computerized control system, or by turning a switch on a control
panel. In some instances a train crew using the keypad on the locomotive
radio may enter a code number which will send a command message to the
control system at a specific location to start or stop the switch heaters.
While I am certain they are out there, the only automatically operated type
of heaters I've ever observed were used on the South Shore. There were
sensor units at the sight of certain spring switches that would activate
the electric heaters when they detected an accumulation of snow.
Now with all this snow piling up and covering the switches, what about
everything else you may ask? Nothing is immune from the forces of winter.
The snow also begins to build up on the switching leads and all areas where
employees must walk as well as all roadways used by motorized vehicles,
cars and trucks. The snow also piles up on the catwalks of locomotives and
cars. The accumulation of large amounts of snow in these locations can also
interfere with the operation. Walking through knee high or even waist high
snow can be time consuming or virtually impossible at times.
When the snow becomes too deep to walk through, a little creativity is
required to make things work. I had to couple up tracks in this snow storm
and needed to advance my way down the track in snow that was quickly
becoming high enough to make walking extremely difficult. Even somebody
over six feet tall or more will to tread through this kind of accumulation.
What you have to do is have the Engineer pull the cut out of the track up
until the last car coupled to reaches you. The cut is brought to a stop you
climb aboard directing the Engineer to begin shoving the cut towards the
cars left behind in that track. This process is repeated until you have the
entire track coupled. Now in order to work your way back up to the engine
you have the Engineer pull the cut all the way out, or as far as they can
anyway. This method takes longer but you do what you have to do. And of
course, this only makes for slowing the operations even more.
What had now become early Saturday morning saw no let up in the snow. This
weather system was indeed a bona fide blizzard. Roads were closed;
automobiles were stuck everywhere and some employees were unable to make it
to work. The operation at Yard Center was down to a crawl. As a result,
train crews were going dead as there was no room to get their trains into
the yard. We were getting very little accomplished to clear out any tracks.
We were not alone in our plight. The Trainmaster had made calls to several
other area railroads and many of them had already gone into a shutdown
mode. We remained open for business, but things were dreadfully slow.
Being that it was virtually impossible to walk anywhere or get anything
switched. We wound up just getting tracks together with the long division
method I've described, pulled the cuts of cars out on the lead and had the
Car Inspectors work the cars in this method. They coupled road power and
cabooses to these cuts and just ran them south without being classified.
This method is known as mine running. They were trying to get cars out of
the yard to clear out space for inbound trains. The cars being sent out
were going to other yards where they weren't getting buried by snow. With
no snow at these locations, they figured somebody somewhere else could get
the cars classified and then dispatch them to the proper stations and
connections.
We wound up with about twenty inches of snow with this blizzard by the time
it let up in the morning. Then, the sun came out. Snow as far as the eye
could see. Many of the daylight brothers had called off as they couldn't
even get out of their driveways. All of the night jobs were held over and
worked twelve hours. And this snowfall was merely the kickoff of what would
be the wildest winter I have ever worked on the railroad.
For years the normal total winter snowfall in the Chicago area was about
thirty-four inches. This winter we would wind up with about ninety total
inches of snow. And behind every snowstorm usually follows a high pressure
system laced with bitter cold temperatures and severe wind chill factors.
While we didn't set any records for single coldest days, I believe we did
set records for the most consecutive days of below zero temperatures and
also days below the freezing mark of 32° F. Couple all the snow with all
the cold weather that came along with it and you have the perfect mix for
absolutely dreadful working conditions.
I worked at lead job switching cars one on the coldest nights of the
winter. It was something like -20° F that evening with a wind chill factor
of nearly -80° F. I was dressed for success that evening as every other
that winter. I wore a set of long underwear, jeans and a flannel shirt. I
had a hooded sweatshirt on over the flannel shirt. I wore a snowmobile suit
over all of that. Insulated socks with plastic bags over them were covered
by insulated work boots. I wore insulated choppers, a type of deerskin
mitten. On the super cold nights I wore a pair of glove liners on my hands
and the choppers over them.
To shield my head from the cold I wore a winter weight baseball cap. I
pulled the hood from my sweatshirt up over that. The collar of my
snowmobile suit was pulled up to provide a little more insulation around my
neck, but was not buttoned in the front. I cannot tolerate having anything
tight around my neck, so the front was open. Not once did I freeze out
there in the elements. However, my beard and mustache could not make that
claim.
Some of you might recall the late Gilda Radner's "Saturday Night Live"
character Rosanne Rosannadanna. In one particular skit Rosanne discusses
having film critic Gene Shallot join her for lunch on a brutally cold day.
She complained of Gene's beard and mustache thawing out and dripping all
over the table and her food. This is about what happened to me. The
moisture in my breath would accumulate and freeze in my beard and mustache
giving me the appearance of the abominable snowman. Whenever I went indoors
into a heated area, my frozen face would begin to melt and drip all over.
People have commented for years about my facial hair. In the winter for
many years I tended to let it all grow a bit longer and thicker calling it
my "winter coat." But it worked, I can't wear scarves or face masks and all
that hair does help keep my face warm.
The entire Midwest was being held under siege by this incredible winter.
Much of the rest of the country was also under the grips of this bizarre
weather as well. Places like Alabama and Georgia were getting snow and
unusually cold weather. All of the Chicago area railroads were battling the
weather. As a result of the gridlock created by the weather, traffic was
affected nationwide.
The Belt Railway of Chicago and the Indiana Harbor Belt were getting record
volumes of traffic dumped onto them for classification and forwarding. The
Belt was so buried at Clearing Yard that they placed a restriction of
sixty-fives cars per inbound train. An additional requirement provided that
any crew bringing in a train from any railroad would also be required to
pull an outbound train as well. While the intent of these requirements was
good, little was working for quite awhile.
There were still thousands of cars to be moved in and out of Chicago with
many of them to be handled through Clearing Yard. Being that only
sixty-five car trains could be handled into Clearing, MoPac came up with an
alternate plan. They would operate two complete sixty-five car trains as
one single train. A caboose was placed in between the two trains and
operated with a single crew and set of power. One of the trains would be
set out anywhere short of the Chicago Terminal they could get it to fit and
the other sixty-five car train would be handled through. Although on
occasion when there was an open spot, one of those train sets would be set
out on the terminal, often on #3 freight track of the Chicago & Western
Indiana. Another crew with another set of power would then come and get
that train and attempt to move to its final destination later. Sometimes
though, it was much later. In some cases, the train sat so long waiting for
power and a crew that the caboose fuel tank ran out of fuel and the fire in
the stove went out causing everything inside (including the overhead water
tank) to freeze up.
Every train that operated into Clearing Yard was waiting for hours,
sometimes well in excess of twenty-four or more to get their landing spot.
As a result, both MoPac and L&N trains were going dead on the hours; lots
of trains were going dead every day. I've heard from others about the same
problem with the Burlington Northern, CNW, Soo Line, Milwaukee Road and
Illinois Central Gulf to name a few. I got into a cycle where I was
routinely being called as a dog catch crew to replace a crew that was dead
on the hours. In many cases we were the second or third crew to man that
train. Clearing Yard was so jammed up that we would sit at one signal for
hours on end without moving. We might move up a few miles then sit and wait
for a few hours, then move a few more miles and wait. I can recall sitting
at 81st Street on the C&WI one trip for eight solid hours without moving.
We took charge of the train at Yard Center going from that point to 81st
Street in the first two hours. We parked at 81st Street and sat and waited.
Actually, the parking turned out to be more like camping out. After some
eight hours of sitting we finally got a signal and worked our way to
Clearing Yard. We barely got the train into the yard and then went dead on
the hours of service. Another crew had been ordered to relieve us and they
took over from there.
Every single trip was twelve hours, moving few miles and going dead. In
some cases we made it all the way into Clearing Yard and managed to get a
train out, but then died short of making it back into Yard Center. There
were days that we died before departing Clearing Yard.
While I never had it happen to me, I know of many who recrewed a train they
had been aboard their previous trip. The crew relieving them did not
achieve their prime objective either.
We were being used to recrew both MoPac and L&N trains that had gone dead
on the hours. Yard transfer crews were getting sent out well beyond the
territorial limits as designated in our collective bargaining agreements to
catch the dead trains. Sometimes the drive to these trains or ride back
from them as the crew that had gone dead was a big adventure. Roads were in
terrible shape and at times impassible. We got stuck one night and all four
of us on the crew were out there working the carryall sent to fetch us out
of a snowdrift. We were successful although it did take quite some time to
accomplish the task.
One evening virtually all of the roads were closed. We had a crew dead on
the hours at Clearing Yard with no way to get to them. When all was said
and done, they wound up being on duty in excess of twenty-four hours before
they finally got tied up. They spent most of that time stuck, sitting on
their train.
Walking in all this snow was nothing less than an adventure. It was at
least waist deep in many locations much of the winter. In the areas where a
fair amount of people had walked, like along side tracks in the yards, it
was packed down somewhat so you were walking above it. But at outlying
points where hardly anybody was walking, like say out in the middle of
nowhere, you were trudging through it. Having to inspect your train in the
attempt to find a problem or perform an air test was a terrific
cardio-vascular workout.
The switching leads at Yard Center and the outlying yards like 37th Street
and 26th Street were plowed and salted down to provide a safer working
environment for the employees, but they could not plow in between each
track in the yard, so that took foot power to pack it down.
Another problem that developed was with the sixty-five car trains that were
being set out all over the place. Some of these trains sat undisturbed for
several days on end. As they sat, more snow fell. The wind played its games
as well and blew more snow in between and underneath the parked cars. The
snow piled up all around these cuts of cars and froze. As the temperatures
were already bitter cold, everything on these trains froze up solid. When
it came time to finally move these trains, they were literally stuck in the
snow and frozen to the rail.
In more than one instance we had to pull them out in multiple pieces as
opposed to all at once. You'd have to walk back say ten or so cars, make a
cut and have the Engineer pull them a head a few car lengths to clear the
snow out. You'd then shove back, couple up, walk back another ten or so and
repeat. In some cases the snow was packed in so tightly that you could only
take cuts of five cars at a time. Factoring in the time it takes to couple
and uncouple in normal weather, adding that to performing the task under
the adverse conditions of the severe cold and butt deep snow, you could
easily take hours just getting the train pulled out of the siding. Did I
mention having to pump up the air in all of these moves?
The cars were frozen to the rail, stuck in the snow and in some cases, had
frozen control valves that control the brake system on each car. You would
have to address all of these problems in trying to get the train freed from
its storage space. And of course, you were trudging through the snow to
accomplish this feat. And being that the snow was piled up so high, it was
an adventure to make the hoses up after uncoupling part of the train.
The main line was not exempt from the problems of snow either. Cuts where
the track passed through often filled up with snow. In some locations it
was piled up so deep that a passing freight train could not plow through
it. This was when various types of snowplows were summoned to service. Most
of the MoPac's locomotives had snowplows attached to the front pilot, but
not all of them. While these plows helped tremendously, when the snow
became too deep, they could not dig through.
A Russell plow was assigned to Yard Center for just the occasions. A
Russell plow is a large snowplow blade, probably fifteen feet or so high
mounted on a rail car. This car features a cab for the plow operator. The
car itself is also heavily ballasted to help keep it on the rail. The ice
and snow that pack in can actually cause the wheels of a plow to climb off
the rail. One, two or more locomotives would be coupled to the plow to
shove it along the main track. It often took a great deal of horsepower and
tractive effort to shove the plow through the deep snow.
The first time I was ever aboard a train that plowed snow just using the
locomotives and train, I was astonished. As you are rolling along at 40 MPH
or more and blast through those drifts, it all comes right back in your
face. The snow will hurtle right over the nose and against the windows and
doors on the cab of the engine. You see nothing but white; this is a
manmade whiteout.
Oftentimes when plowing this much snow, it will pile up against the front
cab door and you cannot open it. Sometimes some of it will also pile up
against the rear cab door blocking it closed as well. While this phenomenon
has never happened to me, I know many a crew that had to be "dug out" of
the cab after a run.
In order to keep the whistle on the locomotive from filling up with snow
and freezing while plowing snow, the Engineer will sound that whistle
continuously. The 100 psi or so of air being pushed through the flutes of
the whistle will usually, but not always blow some of the snow right back
out. Sometimes that snow packs in there though and you have to light a
fusee or two and shove them into the flutes to melt the snow.
Some railroads use a plastic cover with an elastic band around it that fits
snuggly over each flute of the whistle to help keep snow from getting in
there in the first place. Other roads mounted the whistles towards the rear
of the unit, usually right above the radiator to keep the snow from packing
in.
As you are plowing the snow with your entire train in tow, the snow creates
resistance. It will start to slow you down. Of course the rest of the train
is still trying to maintain the same speed you were going when you began to
plow. The slack will begin to run in against the engines. The boys in the
back would get banged around a bit. When I became an Engineer I learned to
alert the tail end crew when we were beginning to plow through significant
snow.
A casualty of plowing snow is often the traction motors of the locomotive.
As the snow is flying over the cab, some of that snow is sucked in by the
air intakes. Enough of the snow may get through the filters intact getting
sucked into the traction motor cooling air ductwork. As most of you are
likely aware, moisture and electricity tend not to get along well. The
result of this mixture is oftentimes a high voltage ground. The ground
relay on the locomotive is kicked and you can get it to reset three times.
After the fourth time, you lose. MoPac did not subscribe to the use of
traction motor cut outs, so if you suffered a high voltage ground in of the
traction motors, that engine was out of commission.
In that brutal winter of 78-79, the Burlington Northern brought in rotary
plows from their regions of the railroad were huge snowfall was
commonplace. BN wanted to use the rotaries to clear up the main line and
the yards. A rotary plow is awesome to observe in action. The rotary plow
is essentially a giant snow blower. There is a slight difference though
aside from the massive size. Instead of the augers rotating from front to
rear, a rotary plow will rotate from left to right or right to left. A
locomotive is coupled to the plow to provide power to make the augers
rotate. This locomotive is used for no other purpose in the plow train
other than to provide power for the rotary plow. It takes a great deal of
energy to make that auger spin and cut through heavy and deep snow and then
to throw it off to the sides.
Several other locomotives will be coupled behind the power locomotive to
shove the plow forward. When shoving the rotary plow, you are not moving at
much speed. Too much pressure can cause the auger or the shaft it is
mounted on to break. And like with a Russell plow, you can derail a rotary
plow as well.
In my twenty-five plus years of railroading, I have never once worked a
dedicated snowplow train. The way winters have carried on (or perhaps not
carried on might be a more appropriate choice of words) in recent years
here in the Midwest, I'm not certain the opportunity will present itself to
me before I retire.
A normal winter in the Chicago area in years past usually produced about 30
inches of snow. During that winter of 78-79 the Chicago area received
nearly 90 inches. Yes, nearly 90 inches. It was said that at almost anytime
after that first big snowfall there was at least 30 inches of snow standing
on the ground at any given time. It goes without saying, but I'll say it
anyway, that the rail industry in Chicago had to make Herculean efforts
just to accomplish routine tasks. Nothing was simple.
Now with all that snow all over the place, there is only so many places you
can plow it off to before you run out of piling spots. We had snow piled up
fifteen or twenty feet in spots next to parking lots. There was so much
snow that it needed to be removed completely from the premises, not just
shoved off to a corner of a parking lot. A decision was made to load up
snow into empty gondolas routed to points in the South and Southwest U.S.
While it was cold seemingly everywhere in the country that winter, it was
still warmer in those locations than the Midwest. The snow would begin
melting and the water from the melted snow would drain out of those cars as
they rolled through the warmer climate. It became commonplace to observe
ten or more gons fully loaded with snow heading south on both MoPac and L&N
trains.
I always wondered though, suppose that snow did not melt and that very car
was directed by car control to a shipper requesting an empty gon for
loading. What happened when that car arrived full of or mostly full of
snow? I'll bet some shipper in some warmer climate was rather surprised. I
suppose we could refer to that as "sharing the wealth."
Somehow, I managed to survive this brutal winter. It did not discourage me
from continuing on with my railroad career. Even though I had absolutely no
life for several months other than work, I decided to continue on with
railroading as my career choice. I think it probably pushed my decision to
get into engine service as soon as I could though. I believe it only
required one harsh winter to make me want to come in from out of the cold.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2004 by JD Santucci
A post script; we have some news to report on the book concept. I have
found a publisher that is crazy enough, I mean willing, yes that it,
willing to take on this project. There is an incredible of work that needs
to be accomplished before you see anything on the shelves of your favorite
book seller, so don't start making your requests quite yet. Hopefully
sometime next year we might have something to begin selling to you all. I
repeat, might. And I'm certain that as my faithful and loyal readers,
you'll rocket it right to the top of the New York Times best seller list;
right? We'll keep you all informed as the project develops and progresses.
Isn't one paTTerson (2 tee's) and the other (NJT) paTerson (1 tee) ?
The Erie Railroad found in the 20's [?] that the commuter traffic on the Main Line thru Paterson was holding up quite a bit of the freight and long distance passenger traffic though the area, so they built was known as the Bergen Cut-Off- a short cut,so to speak..[this was done I also believe at the same time that the 'express' tracks between Ridgewood and Suffern were built also]Old schedules show almost the same pattern as today: trains for west of Suffern use the cut off,as opposed to the Main.The Erie probably wanted a station for its west of Suffern services on the cut off as Glen Rock was a pretty affluent community in those days...and how much does it really cost NJT to maintain a stop there??
Tell Andy to bring lots of tape for that Super 8 film :-(
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm glad you don't, too :)
#6 isn't THAT common. It shouldn't be too hard or long to do this.
Don't know if it was 'Law & Order' or a TV commercial. Viewing was difficult as I was on n/b C at the time. This was around mid-day.
;-D
From one career button-pusher to another ;^)
Hey Mark, are you going to be the lucky conductor on either of the MOD trips next week?
come on Mark where are you??? do YOU KNOW YOU JOB??
That's worth a rim shot.
(needed to be said) ... now GO to your broom closet and turn a key, willya? Heh.
www.railfanwindow.com
The Brighton riders are the big losers in this plan and I don't think anybody can dispute that.
What did you want, a 20-page article? It's the New York Times, not the Subway Times. The article did describe in reasonable detail what is being done on the Brighton Line, and why. According to their studies, a majority of Brighton riders today prefer Broadway to 6th Avenue. Obviously you're a 6th Avenue guy, and it's inconceivable to you that the whole world doesn't want to go where you're going. Well, maybe that just ain't so.
The Brighton riders are the big losers in this plan and I don't think anybody can dispute that.
Many would dispute that. I dispute that. Weekdays, Brighton riders will now have a choice of two routes to Midtown Manhattan. Weekends and late nights, they'll have the route that a majority of riders on that line prefer.
That is what is being asked for. The ability of a Q rider to get off of his or her train nights and weekends at DeKalb and wait for the next D train.
That would be equity.
Previously Brighton riders had their choice of changing at DeKalb for Broadway service.
That remains the issue (as well as why 4th Avenue gets weekend express service while Brighton does not)...
The West End and Sea Beach Lines do not get express service at all (Only 4th Avenue gets that)
4th Avenue has FOUR TRACKS running into DeKalb Avenue (Two Local tracks that serve the Montague Tunnel and Two Express tracks that serve the Manhattan Bridge via the By-pass.
The Brighton Line, OTH, has only two tracks that serve DeKalb Avenue running to and from the bridge via the wall platform at DeKalb.
The most efficient use of the switching plants is what the TA has chosen to do.
Look at it from inside the tower. Switch levers in the normal position will set the plant to run as I have described it above.
Every time you move a lever, you slow a train or two down. And you cannot throw those levers one at a time. They are interlocked, that is why it is called an interlocking plant. You must give a train a clear route through your enitre plant, or you cannot move the levers. Sure you can stop a train and hold it until the next part of the plant can be cleared, but then you have a stopped train, a blocked switch, and a greatly reduced capacity through the plant.
Same thing obtains on my model railroad: If I choose to send a train from one track to another, then both tracks are blocked by that one train. If I choose to not switch tracks, then a train can be moving on each track.
The Name of this exercise is KEEP THEM MOVING.
The RAILROAD will run faster if you walk from Atlantic to Pacific, and please do remember: Atlantic/Pacific is the HUB of Brooklyn Transit, not DeKalb.
Elias
Maybe if you live in south or southeast brooklyn. If you live further to the northeast, then Broadway Junction is likely what you'd describe as the hub of brooklyn.
The Brighton has NEVER had weekend express service,not even in the BMT's glory days....
You can't accuse NYCT of discrimination either..they are simply doing the best they can with the resources they have ..plus..they have REAL numbers on their side,thanks to MetroCard...
How exactly do they use MetroCard data? For instance, do they check what station the riders start their trip, then the next station that their card is swiped (which can be assumed to be their return trip)?
On the weekend, I've talked to both people who ride the M. They're going to transfer to the L at Wyckoff anyway, So they'd probably disagree with you.
The M can terminate at Broad Street. Combined midday J/M service is about the same as rush hour J/Z service.
I know. Didn't I agree on that? I said that all 10 midday M riders are screwed.
The original post said they're screwed because they're losing a 2-seat mid-day ride to 7th & 8th Avenues. Is there any evidence of great demand for this route?
But don't complain about a line that's got ridership levels lower than than the Franklin shuttle.
Come on, that's bull. Metro Ave, Forest, and Fresh Pond Road alone beat the Franklin shuttle. M ridership may not be the highest in the system, but it is far from running empty trains north of Broad St (again we are in agreement on the south of Broad portion). As ChrisR27 mentioned, the L is bursting at it's seems. Have you ever seen the exodus from the M to the L at Wyckoff? One of the reasons for this is because the M only goes downtown. The reason M riders leave is because many of the M passengers are bound for the transfers at 8th Ave, 6th, and Union Square.
The L has had an average annual growth in ridership of 5.5% for the last few years, and it is expected to get worse. You are suggesting it's good that they are even getting more M transplants exiting at Wyckoff for the already overburdened and growing L. The L has enough growth without adding more transplanted M riders that otherwise would have stayed on. They should be talking about a way of reinstating Chyrstie, and keeping the M stopping at Fulton, keeping passengers on the M rather than sending more passengers needlessly to the L, and further taxing that line. The exodus at Wyckoff from the M to the L would be much less if the Williamsburg bridge destinations were made (or even kept) favorable.
You may have some valid points, but you're also mixing apples and oranges. The L is over-crowded at rush hours. During those times, the M will be stopping at Fulton, as it did before. I still doubt that there are many M riders who use Fulton to transfer to uptown trains, but to the extent there are such riders, they'll still have their transfer at rush hour.
Your point about re-instating the K may make sense, but I'm not sure what knock-on effects that would have.
And FWIW, when I walk past the (shuttered) Fulton BMT platform on weekends, I often see people scratching their heads. Apparently there is some degree of weekend demand even among non-regular riders.
I would like to see the M go to Broad during the midday [probably makes more sense to do so] BUT you have other transfers along the Nassau line and makes an off peak extension UN-favorable:
Chambers St: People could just get the Lexington line right here at this very station so people won't have to change at Fulton for the 4/5. Also they have the 6 train at its first stop, Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall.
Canal St: They have a choice between the 6 train and the Broadway line so a lot of people get off here since there are convenient transfers for the Lexington trains & L train at 14 St/Union, 34 St/Herald Sq to get the 6 Av lines and the 1/2/3/9 on 7 Avenue & maybe even the 7 at Times Sq.
Essex St: This is probably the most favorable transfer into midtown since the transfer is very easy to navigate; although the crowds make it more difficult. In fact some riders probably take the J to Essex then the F to Jay St so they could catch the A over walking through the Fulton complex.
Also, people don't necessarily transfer from the A to the J at Fulton so they usually stay on it to ride to Broadway Junction simply b/c the A is express and I think more people are heading towards Jamaica than heading west while I say more people coming from the L head west via Broadway. The only riders that loses out on a direct transfer really is people wanting to go to the 7 Av line. Just putting my 2¢ in this.
And for 95% of those people, taking the L to the 7th Ave line, or transferring to the F and walking a block from 6th Ave, rather than going all the way to lower Manhattan, is the quickest way anyway.
And the L is already a busy line without adding M riders. This also makes M riders need at least three trains instead of a two train ride. Not to mention 4 or 5 flights of stairs at Myrtle-Wyckoff.
W Bwy
PS: I know, the "A" line isn't an alternative, it is already busting through the seams. But, how many people are actually get off the "L" for an "A" express transfer? This might actually help those passengers down the line who uses the "L" line.
Great for the Lex, but what about the West Side IRT or the A/C?
people don't necessarily transfer from the A to the J at Fulton so they usually stay on it to ride to Broadway Junction simply b/c the A is express
Why would people on the M want to take the train east to use Broadway Junction to get the AC, and then go back towards Manhattan?
I did say that people looking to go to the 7 Av line lose out on a direct transfer at Fulton St since M's only go there in the rush again. On the A/C, people would have to transfer to the F at Essex/Delancey then get off at W 4 St or wait for the A/C.
Why would people on the M want to take the train east to use Broadway Junction to get the AC, and then go back towards Manhattan?
Believe it or not, people may actually do that!
S-A-R-C-A-S-M.
As ChrisR27 mentioned, the L is bursting at it's seems.
No it isn't. L ridership has surged. I grant that. But for something to be "bursting at the seams" that implies that the maximum possible amount of service is being operated. Even with the present insufficient train length on the line, there's room for service increases.
You are suggesting it's good that they are even getting more M transplants exiting at Wyckoff for the already overburdened and growing L.
During Middays. Not rush hours.
The exodus at Wyckoff from the M to the L would be much less if the Williamsburg bridge destinations were made (or even kept) favorable.
Let's be honest here: The Williamsburg bridge is not going to be favorable any time soon. Running some trains up the Chrystie connection would be disadvantageous for the riders on these trunk lines, (low frequency, short trains), and would not guarantee Williamsburg Bridge ridership increases.
L ridership has grown. But it IS NOT overburdened.
Okay, maybe not "bursting", but it is certainly standing room only between 5:00AM and 11:00PM, especially between 6th Ave and around Montrose Ave or so.
That's good. A route that's standing room only on its busiest part is being used efficiently, helping keep subway fares down.
It would be great if every route had the moderate crowding level of the L, as opposed to the extremes of the Lex and the South Brooklyn M.
Well no one is questioning the south Brooklyn M, the only issue is Fulton and Broad. I don't think anyone here thinks the M should go through Montague all day long, but it still should terminate with the J at Broad when not going through Montague middays.
True. It's also ideal if ridership is spread out fairly evenly throughout the day rather than being peaked at rush hour. While I can't say that I've ridden it enough at different times to draw a firm conclusion, I get the impression that L ridership in fact is spread out more than on many other, peaked lines.
Basically we are saying the same things here. The MTA should encourage as many M riders as possible to NOT use the L at Wykoff Ave.
Are you suggesting that they close this connection b/t the "L" and "M" lines? If so, it is probably the only way to prevent people from transfering to the "L" line.
W Bwy
You can't force the "M" option on people if they are not going to use it. What they should do is just increase "L" service.. and that should do the trick.
W Broadway
Why do you say that?
Out of every 4 minutes at 8th Ave. between train departures, there is about a 90 second period where nothing is happening. There seems to be no reason why the capacity couldn't be increased to 24 tph if NYCT chose to do so. I think it's equipment and cost that are the issues, not capacity.
Also, any time except the morning rush, the trains can fit more people. They are crowded but not maxed out.
W Bwy
For the 2000 data, scaled to Williamsburg Bridge = 100%, that is:
Williamsburg Bridge 100%
Rutgers St Tunnel 144%
Montague St Tunnel 147%
Clark St Tunnel 149%
14th St Tunnel 188%
Joralemon St Tunnel 202%
Cranberry St Tunnel 272%
Manhattan Bridge 311%
The Willy B obviously has significantly lower ridership than any other crossing. However, the individual trains will still be crowded, as:
1) the J and M lines aren't exactly the most frequent
2) the trains are only 8 cars long (in terms of crowding this would scale the Willy B figure to 125% and the 14th St Tunnel to 235%)
Also the data are very volatile: in 1990, the Montague St Tunnel did very badly and actually had fewer riders than the Willy B; in 1991, the rathole resurged, but there was a shift on the Eastern division from 14th St to the Willy B, so the Willy B outperformed both 14th St and Rutgers. There are probably identifiable factors behind these fluctuations.
Given that variations such as these can indeed happen, the only stability is that the top three have consistently been the Manny B, Cranberry, and Joralemon (in that order). It would therefore be wrong to discount the Willy B as a sink line and laughingly compare it to a shuttle. Indeed, cutting useful transfers like Fulton would only serve to reinforce the existing poor ridership. There may be a case for turning trains at Chambers at peak times (should Broad be maxed out). However, off-peak, it would be foolish not to run through to Broad.
I just don't believe many people on the J/M are transferring at Fulton. Only if you're headed for the A/C does a transfer at Fulton make any sense at all. And if you're going to the A/C in midtown, it's quicker to transfer at Essex for an F and at W 4th again rather than travel an additional 1.5 miles and 4 stops (each way) just to save the ride on the F.
And if you're near the origin of the M you transfer to the L anyway to get to midtown and save even more miles and the slow trip over the bridge.
I've observed the northbound J/M/Z several times in the evening rush (times when they DO go to Broad). They are not at all full leaving Chambers. They really fill up at Canal and Delancey.
In 1990, the Williamsburg Bridge was briefly closed.
The NYCT is in the practice of operating trains at frequencies to match ridership patterns. This accounts for your 2 observations. It is worth noting that the J/Z operates a max of trains every 5 minutes. Combine that with the M every 8-10 minutes, and you have very decent service over the bridge (19tph). Compare that to only roughly 15 tph for the L train, and you really have no reason to complain about rush hour J/M/Z service.
As for off-hours, the J/M/Z line is always fairly empty, especially M trains.
Also the data are very volatile: in 1990, the Montague St Tunnel did very badly and actually had fewer riders than the Willy B; in 1991, the rathole resurged, but there was a shift on the Eastern division from 14th St to the Willy B, so the Willy B outperformed both 14th St and Rutgers. There are probably identifiable factors behind these fluctuations.
Given that variations such as these can indeed happen, the only stability is that the top three have consistently been the Manny B, Cranberry, and Joralemon (in that order).
Your argument here is full of more holes than a spaghetti strainer. FIRST, You say that the only stability is that there's a consistent top 3. Of course, these top 3 have fluctuated greatly over the listed years, In fact twice Cranberry came in higher than the manhattan bridge. And when those two lines did switch places, Cranberry had significant surges in ridership (169,951 in 1991, when it was BELOW Joralemon for the only time, to 228,451 in 1992; and 204,432 in '93 to 223,412 in '94). Yet these are the 'only stable things'?!? OTOH, the only time the Willie B was ahead of Rutgers and 14th was a much more modest jump, and since then the 14th st line has grown predictably and the Rutgers line has remained stable. As for montague's poor performance in 1990, and sudden resurgence, look at the manhattan bridge figures for those years. There's good reasons for everything in these figures, you're just ignoring them.
It would therefore be wrong to discount the Willy B as a sink line and laughingly compare it to a shuttle.\
Would it really? These figures prove it has low ridership, especially in comparison with the other lines.
What's the point of this argument again? Oh, right: low M train ridership. Midday M trains DO NOT have high enough ridership that you can really complain about the lack of the Fulton St transfer. Period.
As are many other lines. On the B train I rode into Brooklyn Thursday around noon, my car had three passengers on the Manhattan Bridge, one of whom appeared to have taken up permanent residence. (Ridership within Manhattan and within Brooklyn were substantially higher.) I often encounter similar midday crowds on the other south Brooklyn BMT lines. (It's funny how the M is singled out as having low midday ridership.)
Maybe there were only a few people because one of them had taken up permanent residence :)
W Broadway
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=430355
Weekend J/M riders haven't had service south of Chambers for many years. I suspect this might be re-evaluated one of these days as Lower Manhattan's weekend trade continues to pick up, but at the moment it's the status quo.
I'm not sure the rationale for terminating mid-day M trains at Chambers. Perhaps they can't turn that many trains at Broad St, due to the need to "fumigate" the trains there before going onto the tail tracks.
I wonder how many mid-day M riders use Fulton to transfer to uptown 7th or 8th Avenue trains? It doesn't strike me as a very common transfer.
The weekend J ran to Broad until 1990, when it was cut back to Canal. In 1994 it was extended one stop to Chambers.
I'm not sure the rationale for terminating mid-day M trains at Chambers. Perhaps they can't turn that many trains at Broad St, due to the need to "fumigate" the trains there before going onto the tail tracks.
The midday J/M (combined) runs no more frequently than the rush hour J/Z.
I wonder how many mid-day M riders use Fulton to transfer to uptown 7th or 8th Avenue trains? It doesn't strike me as a very common transfer.
Why not? That's how Myrtle Avenue line passengers (and Broadway local passengers -- remember, the J runs express middays between Myrtle and Marcy) get to points on the West Side without having to transfer twice.
Now most use the L at Wykoff to access the ACE/1239 lines. Given L ridership levels, that's a trend which should be discouraged.
As someone noted earlier, the Brighton line has never had a weekend express. If you run both the B and the Q on weekends, that would make 4 services on Central Park West (A, B, C, D). There is probably not enough weekend ridership to justify running so many trains. Of course, you could eliminate the 8th Ave/Fulton express on weekends, and run the B instead, but then this thread would be about how a different set of riders was supposedly getting screwed.
People don't seem to understand that service planning involves trade-offs. Resources aren't infinite, and you can't have everything. Surveys showed that Broadway destinations are now more popular among Brighton riders than 6th Avenue destinations. The service pattern has been designed accordingly. The one drawback is that riders traveling to 6th Avenue/CPW/Concourse destinations on weekends need to change trains. If the surveys are correct, then the MTA made the right choice.
Yes it did, until the mid 1960's.
If you run both the B and the Q on weekends, that would make 4 services on Central Park West (A, B, C, D). There is probably not enough weekend ridership to justify running so many trains.
There's been a lot of b!tching on here about how inadequate the C train is on weekends. 2 problems could be solved with one move, if Brighton weekend express service is justified.
Of course, you could eliminate the 8th Ave/Fulton express on weekends, and run the B instead, but then this thread would be about how a different set of riders was supposedly getting screwed
No one is advocating that.
OK. Now it's forty years later. We need to look at current ridership data.
Your fare is good for a one seat ride (if you can even get that) to the Manhattan CBD. If you want to go elsewhere, you ought to expect a two seat ride at least.
It is impossible to expect that you can get anywhere outside of the CBD with only one train.
Elias
I agree with you on this one.. and this is why I think sending the "D" to South Brooklyn was foolish. Especially on the Weekends! The "D" had similar ridership patterns as the "A" line.
W Broadway
The B is not the D, it's an inferior train that had spotty service when it ran on the West End. It runs local north of 59th and if it's not rush hour does not go to the Bronx. The old D used to go to the Bronx.
The Q is a good train, but it only terminates at 57th Street. It's great on transfers but very short on destinations you can reach riding the train.
The M was supposed to come back to the Brighton after the Manny B reconstruction was complete. Now I'm hearing that due to switching issues the M will stay on the West End. Despite the fact that the M had much better ridership on the Brighton than the West End (even north of Dekalb to Chambers).
How in the heck does the West End, which does not NEARLY have as much ridership as the Brighton, get almost the same amount of rush hour service as the Brighton? Can someone please explain that to me. I've also just found out that the West End (and ONLY the West End) will have access to CI for the whole time that the Stillwell reconstruction is going on. Tell me that the West End doesn't have political pull...
While I look forward to the changes, I'm still not happy with the loss of the D. Again this is not a lettering issue with me. If the B ran what the D used to run I'd be okay with the changes.
In non-rush hours weekdays, the West End line has only half the service that the Brighton does.
Rush hours, those extra M trains go places that most Brooklyn riders (85% according to the Times article) don't want to go, namely below Canal St.
Basically, the Brighton has twice the service to Canal St and north that the West End has, all day on weekdays.
If they ain't going to ditz with the (B) then ure as little apples they ain't going to ditz with the (M).
Would you suggest returning the service to this pattern, making the "Q" part time and the "M" the primary service?
W Broadway Local
Don't use past B/D performance to judge how the new service will run. The B/D/Q were all squeezed onto one side of the bridge when they last ran from Brooklyn to 6th Ave. Having both sides open means smoother service less prone to waits and slow movements, especially between thru the Flatbush Ave. corridor.
Jaguar a troll, nah!!! From what I've seen he's passionate about the lack of a convenient weekend transfer between the Brighton line and the 6th Ave line. I definitely see where he's coming from. Of course, I haven't seen everything that goes on this board...
The "M" belongs on 4th Avenue because the "R" will be the only local and that will disappoint a lot of people.
"While I look forward to the changes, I'm still not happy with the loss of the D. Again this is not a lettering issue with me. If the B ran what the D used to run I'd be okay with the changes."
I agree that the "D" should have not been taken off of the Brighton. Lets hope that they return it once the Coney Is. Complex is finished.
W Bwy
Actually, it's the other way around. And some posts have pointed out your errors.
"In all their spin doctoring about how wonderful this new plan is, nobody mentions the screwing of the significant number of Brighton riders who need Sixth Avenue service which will not be provided for about 4 hours each night and all during the weekends.
Nobody's getting screwed. The article clearly relates that the TA has provided service to meet the demand on the Brighton line. At the times you cite as problems, the demand falls steeply and is met by the new service plan at appropriate levels of service. In short, you are basically whining about not having a train every 3 minutes at 2AM. That speaks for itself.
"The Brighton riders are the big losers in this plan and I don't think anybody can dispute that."
Several posters have already disputed it. And you have no data to refute them.
Uptown and Bronx riders are the bigger loosers.. and people who use to have a one seat ride. Now individuals heading to upper Manhattan and the Bronx, must go out their way to get to their destination. Yes, you have many more heading to Midtown Manhattan, or, one of the IRT lines.. But how many people will be using the "D" line from SOuth Brooklyn compare to Flatbush Brooklyn? No one. So the "D" running via the "West End route" is a waste of train. I just hope that the "D" is returned to Brighton once the Coney Island station is completed. Even if it means cutting back the "Q" service to the Weekday.
W Broadway
This is a ridiculous exaggeration. The only passengers who are slightly inconvenienced are those who'd prefer to board the subway during those hours at one of the six 6th Avenue stations in Manhattan south of 34th St. And even for those stations, passengers have a number of other options that are only slightly less convenient than a cross-platform transfer at De Kalb.
The point is not the degree of inconvenience, but the pointlessness of that inconvenience. It isn't done during the day as it would involve two consecutive merges at or near capacity. However, merging 3tph on the D with 3tph on the N and then 3tph on the Q would be relatively easy to schedule (if a cross-platform transfer were arranged between the N and the Q there would be 16 minute wide gaps to fit the D train into). So for the benefit of the signalmen not having to fit a train into a 16 minute gap, passengers are inconvenienced. It is silly.
There are a lot more than 3 tph evenings and weekends. And late nights the D does stop at Dekalb so the point is moot.
David claims the wheel detectors restrict speeds to such an extent that capacity is severely restricted if the D stops at Dekalb. That is plausible even if unfortunate.
Weekends R + D + Q trains can be 21.5 tph. I can see where that level of trains could be a problem if the wheel detectors are as ornery as claimed.
They have the D as the CPW local and the B as the CPW express.
I should log in all the errors that the NY Daily News makes, and there are quite a few other. Their short lived "Today in NY" was a testament to that, and the am-ny newspaper is even worse.
Two weeks ago, on the Chinese New Year, the NY Post told readers the 5 train stops at Canal St.
I find that to be the most intriguing part of the article. To think that a traditionally non-busines district significantly outdraws a traditional business district during rush hour, is something probably no one ever would have imagined.
This statement blatantly ignores the facts. Service to this so-called 'valley' is mostly done by people going across the bridge, NOT tunnel riders. I bet that a large percentage of these riders are getting off at 14th.
The article specifically stated that this area's increased demand was a reason why the N went over the bridge. SPECIFICALLY.
The transfer from Canal (Bridge) to Canal (tunnel) is only slightly annoying. From Dekalb to Prince it's better to go via bridge than tunnel during rush hour (which is what is being discussed here).
Fortunately, the 6 runs very close to the R/W between Canal and Union Square, and the transfer at Canal to the 6 is about as simple as they come without being cross-platform.
I think the "W" to Whitehall Street is a good idea, because of the many Brooklyn delays that occur with the N/R lines. So, I wouldn't suggest putting my train in Brooklyn.
W Broadway Local
Astoria or City Hall
I find that to be the most intriguing part of the article.
Yes, that certainly is intriguing but understandably incomplete, in that the article accounts for less than 75 percent of rush hour destinations. (I presume they must be referring to the AM rush hour).
I would like to know:
(a) What proportion of rush hour destinations are in each borough;
(b) What proportion of rush hour destinations are in the "hub" (Manhattan south of 60th Street); and
(c) What other areas (if any) besides the three mentioned are in the hub.
The data published seems to confirm that Lower Manhattan, whose share of destinations has been falling, already has more than adequate subway service, and that it is not an area where large new capital expenditures can be justified.
their attempt at the arcane art of rail service design.
An art that is often practised in this forum without the benefit of origin-destination surveys!
(a) Well, over 75% is Manhattan if almost 75% is Manhattan south of 60th. I wouldn't be surprised if people who work in downtown Brooklyn disproportionately live in south Brooklyn, so you probably have quite a few people getting off the train before it ever leaves the borough. And of course there are significant centers of employement in Manhattan north of 60th, the Bronx, and Queens as well. There are also people taking a railroad train out of the city. It's not clear if their final destination is counted or their last subway stop is what's measured.
(b) About 75%.
(c) There is nothing in Manhattan south of 60th other than the 3 regions they mention. "Midtown", "28th to Canal", and "downtown" takes up the whole area.
Except many planners and others draw an opposite conclusion. They see Lower Manhattan's decline* as an employment center and conclude that the area needs more transit service. Hence, for example, the hugely expensive proposals to bring the LIRR directly into the area.
* = a relative decline vis-a-vis Midtown, not a decline in absolute numbers.
I don't see much of a case for providing more service to well served areas with little room for further development.
On that basis, Lower Manhattan is the least deserving of more transit. It doesn't have the most crowded trains — that distinction goes to Midtown. And it doesn't have the most room for expansion — if zoning laws permit, the Valley does.
Zoning laws don't permit, and for good reason. There's no solid bedrock 20 or 40 feet down in the Valley as there is in midtown and downtown. You can't easily build safe really tall (e.g., 50 stories) buildings there.
Thanks for that important information, which explains why Manhattan has two separate central business districts.
Well, yes and no. The area is growing again now, and will have a greater amount of new housing (and residents) than before. Subway service was there, but access was complicated by old stations, confusing passageways, lack of easy transfer between lines etc. The PATH and Fulton Transit Center projects will address that directly.
As to the talk about LIRR service, we'll see. Right now it's just talk, of course, nothing more. By contrast, East Side Access is underway, and the first contract for boring through Manhattan from 2nd/63rd has been let ($15 million; roadheader). The Queens-side connections are underway. This, of course is a response to known, unfilled demand in midtown.
The new pedestrian connections and wider platforms will help. But to terminate the PATH subway line, do you really need an architectural masterpiece costing $2 billion? From a utilitarian point of view, the temporary terminal serves the purpose.
False. It does not serve as anything but a stopgap. You can argue about whether or not $2 billion is too much, but integrating PATH into the Fulton Street complex is vital. The new design does that.
We need more than what’s there at the moment. Since we have the chance and some funds, it would be nothing short of folly not to do build the integrated transportation hub.
I can now see the temporary terminal is only an open-air stopgap. But the impression that I get from the drawings of the Calatrava hub is one of architectural magnificence and a lot of empty space. It is described more as a source of inspiration than as a railway station, and without seeing a plan view it is hard to figure out just where the new pedestrian connections will go.
One consequence of 9/11 is the feeling that Downtown needs grandiose projects as a form of collective ego boost. Hence the PATH station, the Fulton transit hub, LIRR/JFK access, etc. Not all of these may necessarily be bad ideas (well, I'm convinced the LIRR plan is totally useless), but the point is that it's unlikely anyone would be too enthusiastic about them if the WTC were still standing. My idea is just wait, as business conditions eventually will improve on their own - and indeed appear to be improving.
An ego boost can sometimes be quite helpful, and I am sure that the politicians understand that. Some of the remarks in the press release make that very clear. Is it good policy in the long term? Perhaps that should be a secondary consideration.
I don't know for sure whether it's good policy, and most likely the politicians don't either. My suspicion, however, is that peoples' memories tend to be fairly short-term, meaning that any aversion to doing business in Downtown as a result of 9/11 is likely to fade away soon, to the extent it hasn't done already.
It may well be that a bigger reason for grandiose projects is that they garner a lot of attention for politicians.
And a good deal of self-congratulation! Well at least the politicians got ego boosts, not to mention the architect.
The permanent PATH station should not be confused, mind you, with a mere subway station. It will be part of a "Transportation Hub", which is quite different. The PATH station will be only one element of it, the others being safety and security enhancements, "seamless pedestrian connections" to the World Financial Center and the Metropolitan Transportation Authority’s proposed Fulton Street Transit Center, and Libeskind's "Wedge of Light plaza" which is a public open space.
“This is the Port Authority’s gift to New York City,” Mr. Calatrava said. “It will be a lamp of hope in the middle of Lower Manhattan, creating an unbroken line of natural light from the platforms to the sky.”
Do people here believe that train station desgins should be purely utile? Consider the new Stillwell Terminal, for instance. It isn't as far "over-the-top" as Calatrava, but clearly the MTA has gone well beyond what was minimally necessary to bring the station up to "state of good repair." Was that a bad project?
Consider the way the MTA did new stations and rehabs a generation ago (e.g., the 63rd St line, the 53rd St line, the Archer Avenue line, the "refrigerator tile" at IRT Bleecker St and Spring St). Is that a better way to go?
Given the generous budget, the "wow" factor is exceptionally high in this case, but understandably so.
Do people here believe that train station desgins should be purely utile?
The London underground has always paid close attention to the design of every detail, but usually in a utilitarian way.
Some Moscow metro stations have very spacious interiors, and they are sometimes called palatial.
The New York subway first impressed me, as a visitor, because of its assault on the senses and its apparent disregard for esthetics. That may have been a romantic view but it has stayed with me and now I feel that's the way it ought to be.
The Calatrava design is not at all what I would expect to find in a New York subway station. Its sculptural design makes it look more like an art gallery. But I am sure that it will provide an exciting visual experience.
Almost everything that you buy and use has an esthetic aspect to it. I don't know how you could allocate the cost between the utilitarian and the decorative. In the case of womens' clothing, the decorative aspect can be more important than the practical. And I am sure that in the 1950s I would have happily paid extra for a car with tail fins. Subway stations should not be an exception to this rule, provided that the passengers appreciate the decor and are willing to pay a little extra for it.
That "apparent disregard for esthetics" wasn't always the case. Many of the IRT Contract 1 stations were truly beautiful when first built (and I'm not just talking about City Hall). Over time, the stations were neglected, and patchwork rehabs ignored then spirit of the original designs. Stations built later (e.g., most of the IND) were more utilitarian. Things have come full circle, and many of the rehabs done in the last 10-15 years have recognized once again that subway stations should be esthetically pleasing—even beautiful.
(That "apparent disregard for esthetics" wasn't always the case. Many of the IRT Contract 1 stations were truly beautiful when first built (and I'm not just talking about City Hall). Over time, the stations were neglected, and patchwork rehabs ignored then spirit of the original designs.)
The utilitarian designs were characteristic of the "less is more" era in many categories, not just the subway. The extra tiling and other features don't appear to add much to the cost, based on the amount of time it takes. The Atlantic/Flatbush project went on for years, and the whole place still looked like a pit a few months ago. Then ZAP they're done.
The Valley, which is much larger, is also served by nine routes from Brooklyn, but only three at local stops. That makes it a potential concern.
???
C, F, L, R make all stops.
A, B, D, only skip 2 stops in the Valley.
Only the 2, 3, 4, 5, N, and Q skip many stops in the Valley.
Adds up to more than 9 lines in any case, even if you count the 2, 3, 4, 5 as only 2 routes.
One major center of employment is centered around 23rd Street, which has excellent subway service, but all of it is local. I'm sure NYCT considered (and rejected) running the N on weekdays like on weekends -- local north of Canal rather than 34th.
I wonder why it was rejected. The N must merge with the local to access Queens. What difference would it make if this merge was moved from it's current location (north of 34th St) to south of Prince St?
(I agree that operationally, it makes no difference whatsoever.)
It would upset some guy in California.
Brighton riders historically got at first express service all the time then cuts came Weekend express service was cut. Then manny b opened and there was 3 services brighton received Nassau/Jamaica,Broadway and Sixth Ave (D,QJ,QB) this continued till 1984 when the M was moved to West end for rush hour service and 9th ave for middays. This also even service out for the short lived skip stop service while the express trks were being rehabed. Brighton riders did get express service during the hours of 6am-8pm till 1991 when brighton express service was expanded to 9pm then 10pm later on. so how did this get become a racial issue its ridership not what type uses the service.
There has been talk of the Culver Line receiving new express service via Church Ave. So with all this how come this hasnt been expanded since the ridership levels warrant it. The answer community opposition on Carroll st and 4th ave which are the skipped stops they should have some V and G service as in a mirror of a mini Qns Blvd line.
As for Sea beach is in need of a ridership boost past New utrecht ave but a nassau partner (RR) like ending at Chambers can be used.
For the Nassau portion, weekend service should see some M service to Lexington Ave when built for a turnaround this can allieviate some L line crowding.
Your thoughts
J
Not true for a time the B went up CPW all times except nights.
It's called the Bergen Interlocking.
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/7994829.htm
So that's how you get a contract to build railcars. Just hire some politically connected people, promise token jobs [that will NOT go to the people that need them the most], and kiss the asses of the Governor and Mayor, and viola! Your fly-by-night company gets a 230 million dollar contract to build railcars. A real class operation we got here in Philly, but in reality, Philly is a real class city. That how everything gets done in this sewer!
Mark
SEPTA hired the lowest bidder, which is what they're supposed to do.
Just hire some politically connected people...
Which I'm sure Kawasaki and Adtranz also did
...promise token jobs [that will NOT go to the people that need them the most]...
Jobs are jobs, and railcar assembly isn't exactly a labor market rife with patronage.
Your fly-by-night company gets a 230 million dollar contract to build railcars.
I wouldn't call one of the world's largest railcar manufacturers a "fly-by-night company." Their low rating comes mainly from lack of U.S. experience - how else are other manufacturers supposed to break into the U.S. market to give Kawasaki, Bombardier, and Adtranz some competition?
Actually, according to the article, SEPTA is not required to pick the lowest bidder. The regulations were changed, says the Inky, after the troubles arose with the Market-Frankford M4 cars, which had been supplied by the lowest bidder, ADTranz.
Mark
OK; they're still saving $14 million over Kawasaki and not getting the tried and true garbage from Bombardier or Adtrash.
Mark
The Philadelphia Daily News article on the same topic focused on the potential new jobs coming to the Navy Yard rather than the political patronage attached to it.
Theoretically, bringing a new entrant into the market is good for customers (governments, riders) as competition leads to lower prices (or better quality at same price.) That's assuming the competitors don't kill each other.
I think there was a similar brouhaha in the early 80s when (German owned) Budd (a/k/a Transit America) was up against foreign makers trying to break into the US market. At that point, US customers had virtually no choice, St. Louis & Pullman being defunct.
PS. Don't expect anything radically different from the various Arrow/Comet class cars that are "out there."
The "sketchy, no name" terms we use in this thread is due to our wn ignorance and unfamiliarity with them.
I don't know whether they will be able to build a technically superior railcar here. But to be fair, they haven't failed yet. It's wrong to condemn somebody before they've committed a crime.
Budd doesn't want this or any other rail contract. They are happy being a midwestern auto parts manufacturer now.
In the grand scheme of things, i'm surprised they consider 14million such a huge cost savings. You can't get anything done or build anything with 14mil, as far as transporation goes, as far as i know. One little flaw and that is sucked away. One little flaw, and the Silverliner II and III is going to be in service for a lot longer.
Least we'll be seeing some different styled trains than the carbon copy stuff that seems to be put out lately, though I wonder if it will look anything like a Silverliner at all.
Hey, ASEA hadn't built anything for the US market prior to the AEM-7s, and those were by all measures, a big success.
Remember that Kawasaki too had a first US order.
IMHO, this is more bashing of the company for being Korean and new, rather than anything solid. Granted, I'm no huge fan of Korean stuff, but they've gotten better over the years, and let's face it, Bombardier screws up a lot, Budd did too.
Of course, for all the 'Bring back Budd!!!!' talk, I have to laugh, since ThyssenKrupp (Budd's owner) is often called a lot of not so nice things in the elevator world (ThyssenKrap, PissinKup, etc)
What we have against them is the fact there's a system and a list of criteria in place to select the bidder. When all is said and done, said system was thrown out and a winner bidder was selected for other reasons. Why have the scoring system in place, especially if you picked the lowest scorer on the #1 highest rated question?
I just emailed you off-line...(and mispelled your first name. Sorry).
Ron
EMD built the ASEA AEM-7's for Amtrak.
Have you checked to see what kinds of things Kawasaki builds besides motorcycles and railcars? I don't believe there's much difference between them.
"I'm sure if an american company did that, they'd lose focus or be broken up like Standard Oil. "
You are wrong. Look at GE and Tyco. Standard Oil was not about a company making a zillion different products. It was about price collusion and monopoly in one vertically integrated market.
And of course Tyco, you can make anything out of those Lego Blocks.
Tyco doesn’t make LEGO blocks. They’re made, surprisingly enough, by the the LEGO Company.
BBD is mostly in the aerospace industry.
Look at GE: electrical equipment of all sorts, plastics, financial services, NBC, power generation, locomotives...
As for the Hyundai crap... Yes the Koreans are not known for as quality as the Japs or French, but their warrrenty...
They're buying trains from Rotem; they make LRVs, EMUs, DMUs, locomotives, Maglevs, traction motors...
I'm sure if an american company did that, they'd lose focus or be broken up like Standard Oil.
Like General Motors, Ford, Budd, Kawasaki, Bombardier...
But I'm not completely versed enough to continue any further than those observations unfortunately.
And i'm confused though, is Bombardier candian or a US company?
But I'm not completely versed enough to continue any further than those observations unfortunately.
And i'm confused though, is Bombardier candian or a US company?
Have you ever owned a Frigidaire (GM) refrigerator? A Philco (Ford) television?
Both are "Subway Series" sets with one powered car, a trailer car, an oval of track, and a 100-watt transformer selling for $349.00
One set is a "Yankees" train, and the other set is a "Mets" train.
Warning: Rather than using R-36 or R-62 models, both sets use recycled R-17 toolings.
Yawwwwwwwwwwwwn
Bring on the r26/28/29/33 classes....
Humanity awaits!
Yawwwwwwwwwwwwn
Bring on the r26/28/29/33 classes....
Humanity awaits!
My problem now is that my 1 year old grand-daughter has found the cabinet where they are on display :-(
R-17 Redbirds w/locosound due Feb 2004
R-17 Redbird add-ons Due Feb. 2004
R-36 Worlds Fair add-ons Due Feb. 2004
R-12 Grey & R-12 White sets Due Feb. 2004
I hope Mr. Wolfe updates his website before he makes his semi-anual appearance in York, Pa. OR BETTER YET, deliver the stuff.
They are really going to be late!
I still have the single-car yellow R-17 on back-order with one dealer. They delivered some of these over a year ago, but delivered only half the number ordered. I'm one of the unlucky ones.
The dealer emphatically insists that my order will eventually see the light of day.
You know there is a two car, rider car, 30-2273-3 set that was supposed to come out last month. I suspect they will be surely be different car numbers though.
Time to install the high chain-linked fence to your "yard area". Just finished installing mine to keep my kooky cats away from my Comet II and loco fleet.
Regards,
Jimmy
Are you sure it is only 2 cars?
These days, MTH charges about the same price for a four-car set. I guess they feel that the transformer and the track is worth the cost two trailer cars.
I can't help but wonder how many guys will be interested in a two car subway set. The previous four car sets seemed to sell very well.
Perhaps MTH is figuring on offering multiple add-on cars at a later date.
I'm leaning towards NOT getting these sets, but if I do, I may sell the track and transformers on e-Bay to recoup some of the costs.
Everything you said was true. I did notice that the illustration for the new sets would seem to indicate that all of the cars will carry the same car number, 2000!
That sure does not seem to be very realistic, does it?
Last year, I did send a note about the Brooklyn PCC in the catalog, which had wrong route and destination signs and a wrong car number. At least they corrected the car number into the 1000s, but the route is still "48" and the destination is still "Ebbets Field," both on a single sign. Tompkins never had PCCs (or even single-ended Peter Witts) and I don't think any line in Brooklyn was ever signed for "Ebbets Field."
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Ed,
Route 48 in Brooklyn was Lorimer Street not Tompkins Avenue.
Tompkins Avenue was route 7 as a Streetcar Line and then 47 when
converted to Trolley Coach. Streetcar 47 was Franklin Avenue, which
ran past Ebbetts Field and use 8500 Peter Witt's which were
configured as single ended cars. When Franklin Avenue was discountinued the Lorimer Street Cars shifted to Franklin Avenue from Nostrand but were double ended. Service was cut back to Prospect Park from Park Circle and substituted with the B-33 Hamilton Avenue Bus. >>GG<<
BTW, the 48 to Ebbetts Field is as fantasy destination created by Bob Diamond.
Also, what I have been told the Brooklyn PCC will be numbered 1001 in
the post World War II green & silver paint. Adding insult to injury
Brooklyn 1001, survives at the Shore Line Trolley Museum, East Haven,
Connecticut and is being restorted to the gray Pre WWII paint scheme.
8 > )~ Sparky
MTH should have at least numbered the postwar body in the 1500's, no excuse for numbering them in the 1000's, now all the 3 railers will be gettin' confused. I will write a strongly worded letter if they don't get the green color right. :-)
I'm curious as to how Mike got to use Board of Transportation logos but the Corgi Brooklyn car doesn't have them. It would be nice to have NYCTS decals to put on that car.
But I don't understand the reference by LoudFast&AgingRapidly to numbering the car in the 1500s. Even the SF Muni Brooklyn car (with standee windows) is numbered in the 1000s.
The color looks all right.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Also, since the BoT logo is the trademark property of NYCTA, and MTH has a liscening agreement with them, they get to use it for their "brooklyn" car. Corgi didn't pay, so they didn't get to use it.
SFMuni numbered the Brooklyn scheme ex-SEPTA car 1053 because that was the next number in their car numbering series, no other reason. When the 15 ex-Newark cars are delivered, they will also be numbered beginning the next car after the last ex-SEPTA car.
I'll bring my swatch of both the early and late BoT greens to Trainworld find out for sure! My letter writing reference was meant to be a joke about us rivet counters and about my foaming about getting paint scheme colors right. :-) Model railroading is FUN!
One thing I don't understand is how the BoT logo could possibly be "trademark property" of NYCTA. The Board of Transportation was a City department. Did the legislation creating the TA in 1953, when it was forced on the City, transfer all prior logos or other such items to the TA? It seems to me that the logo is property of the people of New York City, past and present, not the TA.
If Mike Wolf paid, how much did he pay? How much did Corgi pay for the B of T logo on its GM buses from a few years ago?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
The TA has been very aggressive about asserting copyrights and
trademarks and getting revenue from licensing, even where
they are on shaky legal ground. I don't know of anyone who
has taken them to court.
IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer), but in my opinion preventing someone
from making a model of a subway car and including the "M" or
other logo is not something that the spirit of the copyright or
trademark laws intended. A model, drawing, photograph, etc.
is essentially an artistic interpretation. The object which is
being interpreted is something that is (or used to be, before
retirement) plainly visible from public property. Surely,
if set up my canvas in a park and create a painting of the street
scene, and it happens to include a Starbucks coffee shop (the odds
are pretty good that it will), Starbucks has no grounds for telling
me I must pay them a royalty before I can sell my painting??
Likewise, the MTA can't make a claim based on trademark laws.
A trademark is a distinctive name, phrase or graphic the purpose
of which is to clearly identify your business, product or service
to potential customers and to differentiate it from competitors.
It would be a clear violation of trademark law for me to build
and sell my own brand of cars but use a hood ornament that looked
just like that of the Bavarian Motor Works. OTOH, I could open
up a pet store called BMW pets, because there is no possible
confusion...these are clearly unrelated businesses. Could you
argue that someone would confuse a model of a subway car for
the real thing?
To my knowledge, Boeing or Lockheed-Martin hasn't tried this yet (sshhh).
I can fully understand charging to have access to proprietary
drawings. I can not fathom the legality of charging someone
for creating an artistic likeness of an object which can be
plainly seen on or from a public street.
The only company that I know of who will not permit their logo to be used on a model - licensed or otherwise - is UPS. They even sued a manufacturer who produced a 1960's style delivery truck, HO scale, and offered it in brown. (They lost, but not before bankrupting the manufacturer.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BN was fairly careful about sold equipment. A BN caboose in the museum had to be repainted in its original NP colors in the stipulations of the donation of the caboose. They do not want their logo on any object that people may make a claim on them if injured on it.
They are also tough on structures along the ROW. They encourage firms to build there (as a railroad customer) and as long as they are there and pay the rent, the RR does not care if they ship or not. But they cannot leave an empty building on RR property. If another tenant cannot be found the building (including those built by the RR itself) will be gone.
The old locker plant here in town is a case in point. The building, about 70 years old, was a delapadated eyesore, and an atraction to kids and druggies alike. The RR wanted it gone, the City wanted it gone, everybody wanted it gone, but nobody wanted to pay to make this happen. Especially since locker plants tent to have asbestos in them.
Well its gone now, even though some environmentalists tried to stop the destruction with obstructions because of the polutants that said demolition would release.
Go Figure. Annd it didn;t even have a trademark on it.
: ) Elias
Which museum are you talking about?
What does a locker plant manufacture? Why would it have a lot
of substance-A in it?
What does a locker plant manufacture? Why would it have a lot
of substance-A in it?
The museum in question is a small county museum in Dickinson, North Dakota. It is a prairie culture museum with some German-Russian exhibits, along with some Norwegian culture. The railroad was of course the major catalist to development in this part of the world. (Read Land Grants). So BN donates this caboose to the museum, but does not permit it's current logo to be displayed on the car. It is put back into NP colors.
A locker plant does not manufacture anything. It is a processing plant. It processes ANIMAL PRODUCTS, ie farmers would bring in a cow, they would shoot it, custom butcher it, and freeze or process it (usually in those days before great freezers, that meant making sausages out of it) for you. You can imagine that asbestos would be a problem in such a plant, although it has been closed for so long that refergents would have long since been bled off. I really cannot imagine why an environmentalist would be against the removal of such a building, but there you have it.
PETA came to the lawn at the state capitol to make their protests, so on the other side of the green, the cowboys set up big bar-b-q pits and roasted a cow. The put up a sign "People Eating Tasty Animals" and gave out free samples to all who came by. PETA did not make many friends in ths part of the country.
Elias
Asbestos would not likely have been used in a refrigeration system,
but it may have been used to insulate steam supply pipes.
I'm not a legal beagle either. But a diner at the intersection of
Route 9W & 32 off exit 10S I-84 was the "Lexus" and was forced to
change it's name to "Alexus" by the auto manufacturer. It was
a big issue for several years in Orange County, New York.
8 > ) ~ Sparky
Coincidentally, I saw Corgi bus with the BoT logo at a friend's tonight. Its possible that Corgi got a pass on that one time.
This is very odd since Corgi released a version of the GMC Old Look New York Board of Transportation Bus marked "Special" a few years ago and it had the authentic BdofT logos on the sides. I suspect Corgi either forgot to use them on the Brooklyn PCC, or -- more importantly -- they probably would have to pay NYCTA again to use the logos a second time, and opted to save money by not renewing the logo rights.
I still have to wonder when the TA was given or assumed the rights to use the Board of Transportation logo or started to charge for it.
Do they also claim rights to "City of New York" on the sides of R-1 cars or "Brooklyn Rapid Transit" if someone sells painted BMT elevated cars? Or "Fifth Avenue Coach," "Interborough Rapid Transit," "Surface Transportation," "New York City Omnibus Corporation," "Avenue B & East Broadway," "New York Railways," "Sea Bach Railroad," and all the other predecessor operators on what are now TA-operated routes?
Model railroaders are now starting to put up with the arrogance of the Union Pacific, which is claiming the right to collect royalties on the use of any predecessor railroad. Some model manufacturers are now charging a premium if anyone buys a model in UP paint--I think it's 5% or so.
To me, a major difference between what the UP, as a private corporation, may claim as their trademark right and what we're talking about here is that the Board of Transportation was a City department, not a private entity. Does State law give the TA such rights? If so, was the City paid for its loss? Has the City's Corporation Counsel ever issued an opinion on this?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York.
I'm not sure about the phrase "City of New York".. But I believe that anything to do with the BRT/BMT and its predecessors may depend upon the way that they were sold to the BofT. The BMT Corporation (like the BRT before it) was a holding company. In 1940 it sold its rail assets, which were actually operated by subsidiary companies, to the city but it continued to exist as a corporate entity for several years after that. Therefore, any corporate logos or copyrights probably were not transferred to the city. It is my understanding that the BMT continued to exist while it liquidated certain non-rail related assets and then voluntarily dissolved.
Which IMNSHO is an insult to the membership of the Branford Electric
Railway Association, the owner and conservators of 1001 which is being
restorted in the original pre WWII paint scheme. But thanks to a
babbling ignoramous, who calls himself a technical advisor, another
car preserved by BERA is misrepresented in the color it's being
saved in. And then he has the audacity to wonder why no one wants to
speak to him at Branford. Whom speakit to simpleton?
8 > ( ~ Sparky
It sure would be a lot cheaper.
I based my response on the fact that MTH has offered add-on cars for all seven of the previously issued subway sets. They haven't offered an add-on set for the R-12's yet, but they have still failed to deliver that original set and it is now 14 months late.
Dave
I received some back-ordered model trains..and it came with a flyer for the MTH "Subway Series" sets.
They ARE indeed offering 2-car add-on sets for both the Yankees and Mets Ready-to-run sets. My dealer is selling them for a little over $100 a pop. The Product numbers are:
30-2417-3 Yankees two-car set
30-2418-3 Mets two-car set
Now when you read the brochure, under "Alternative Bus Options" theres a HUGE misprint. They got the 409 and 419 mixed up. Another foul-up is that it has the 2/15 start date, despite the fact that it won't open until 3/14 [we hope!].
One interesting thing, is that the last car will leave at 9:10 pm [9:00 on weekends] from Trenton, and 8:50 pm [8:45 on weekends] from Camden. Boy that really sucks. Especially since I have to leave NYC around 7:30 in order to meet the last car out of Trenton. Maybe NJT should exert some political pull with Conrail [NS] in trying to extennd the hours to at least 11 pm or midnight. I guess Conrail can be more accomondating o n the service hours, if not then NJDOT can hold hostage other rail improvements until Conrail relents.
When I get home, I will scan in the brochure, but I cannot post it on the site since I do not know how to do this. If you want a copy, then I could e-mail it to you. E-mail me at mdlbigcat@comcast.net, and I will e-mail the brochure to you. Please be patient, since it will take me around 24 to 48 hours to do this.
The track(s) is/are shared from Bordentown to Hatch (Delair, Pennsauken).
The < Q > was delayed and an announcement by the T/O said there was no express service. Arriving at DeKalb (not DeKailb), an R train went OOS as confused riders were thinking the Q on the Bridge side would go through the tunnel. Instead of crawling over the Manhattan Bridge, I went out to the Travel Information Center to pick up the new subway map, and took the 4 train at Borough Hall into Manhattan.
See, the MTA does not suck as one person imagines it to be.
Since I have to make a run to Bedford Park tower to find out the first D train to Brooklyn laeaving there, I will most likely join you guys enroute.
I can sleep all I want when I'm dead.
It's not like the tracks are not going to be used anymore. I could see if the Brighton express tracks were going the way of the Hillside express, but they aren't.
That'll be good for Brighton riders since we haven't had two options since the 1980's [The 1995 project doesn't really count. BTW I'm talking about the 2 Q's, orange & yellow, hmm makes me want to look at that map right now :0)].
Last but not least now TWO great ways to get to Chinatown via express trains..... :-)
I won't comment on that ;-).
The
July 23, 2001-February 20, 2004
Go out now and you may get another diamond Q ride.
It doesn't work if you preview BTW. If you do preview, the preview will look right, but the post will not.
You may have noticed I was able to type the codes > and < without it being interpreted as < and >
I did this by subsituting & with &
Always be sure to remember the ; at the end. It's not punctuation for my sentences.
Well, all you folks on the Brighton Line, you don't have the line anymore, you now have the (B).
All they did was to hang a different letter on it.
Elias
This morning, at about 10:00 this morning, I had lost my camera in the "I"
Building, room 200.
The following is a description:
A Sony DSC-P72 digital camera, silver in color.
I have checked all the possible places that I could in an attempt to find it, but haven't so far.
I had intended to do railfanning at this time, but I can't without it.
It's like a "I Need it now!" type of problem.
If anyone has found it (I doubt it, but at least I've tried). please e-mail me, using the link provided above.
It is important that I have this particular item.
Also, if it hasn't been found, and if there is anyone out there generous enough to chip in to buy me a replacement, please e-mail me, again using the link provided above, with the amount that you're willing to contribute.
It happens.
But if I do get it back, I'll be sure to put one of those "If found, please return to..." labels on it.
I guess it helps if you pay them the $$$.
This morning, at about 10:00 this morning, I had lost my camera in the "I"
Building, room 200.
The following is a description:
A Sony DSC-P72 digital camera, silver in color.
I have checked all the possible places that I could in an attempt to find it, but haven't so far.
I had intended to do railfanning at this time, but I can't without it.
It's like a "I Need it now!" type of problem.
If anyone has found it (I doubt it, but at least I've tried). please e-mail me, using the link provided above.
It is important that I have this particular item.
Also, if it hasn't been found, and if there is anyone out there generous enough to chip in to buy me a replacement, please e-mail me, again using the link provided above, with the amount that you're willing to contribute.
NY & Atl received their third new (old) engine earlier this month. She's GP-10 #201 & was here on LIRR rails before going to Conrail. As a matter of fact she is STILL in Conrail blue.
Unlike the two SW1200s that NY & Atl recently got she's not operatation at this point. The parts she needs have been ordered, so for now she's a static display in the Fresh Pond yard.
OFF TOPIC discussion board for RAILFANS
RailfanWindow.com Gallery of Photos
Sorry, I went too fast.
Somehow overnight they converted the West Side IRT to IND, merged it with CPW, and combine #1 and A service, only for it to fail in the morning! Heh!
Makes you wonder who you think is working over there... ;)
BTW: As soon as I saw the real poster, I called Sea Beach Fred to alter his plans to use the Airtrain Jamaica station instead of Howard Beach station, since he will be touching down at the time this shuttle bus G.O. is in effect. Ironic that it only lasts for six hours and ends at 12 Noon.
And you see why people will be confused as to whether the V train is running on weekends or not.
The 1 will be replaced by shuttle buses between Lefferts, Howard Beach, and Euclid tomorrow from 6 AM to noon.
The A has no diversions listed in Queens or Brooklyn.
I felt the same way you did, until I took a closer look and realized.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55960-2004Feb19.html
Today's post article on WMATA seeking a fare increase.
My opinion, I think WMATA's fare [with the increase factored in] is still DIRT CHEAP compared to what SEPTA and NYCT riders are being gouged out of. Also since the primary industry in DC is government,[and its private sector leeches] I think the bureaucrats can put a little extra in the transit kitty.
Mark
Mark
On other days, it's the 4 line rerouted via SF loop and back to Chambers to #2 line
Whew, not that's too much. But I love it, wish I can do this.
Still, it's 36 tph over the bridge vs. 27. All the N and R riders who used to switch at Pacific or Dekalb to a W or Q can now take an N. So bridge trains will be less jammed.
Aarrgghh, I'm so confused!
Hmm, that is a tough one ;-)
Seriously though I've seen the schedules and in a sense it will add up to 36tph ± 1 or 2 trains.
B=10
D=8
N=10
Q=8
B=10
D=8
N=10
Q=8
In what one hour period do you see more than 9 B or N trains on the schedule?
7:21-8:21am on the B (10)
8:02-9:03am on the N (10)
I counted 10 trains. This is heading into Manhattan by the way.
There clearly is a preference for balance, for evenly scheduled merges and diverges.
If there were not, I would have expected more trains on the Brighton, which seems to me to be much more crowded than the 4th Avenue line. That's why I had suggested extending a few "Z" trains on the Brighton during the peak period, back when.
The Times article said the bridge will be going to 10,10,10,10 in the future, perhaps when the R160s arrive or when lighter summer loads on other lines free up some equipment.
Do you know for a fact there are 10 Rs through the tunnel? The official public schedule only says every 6-8 minutes.
I think it will be every six minutes during the busiest hour (7:30 to 8:30) and eight minutes during the rest of the peak period.
Or perhaps when Coni Island is open, and can turn that many trains.
: ) Elias
But I haven't seen anyone discuss what's happening on the A line. This caught my attention only today, on a yellow poster at the Jay Street station.
This all leads me to believe there's something going on at Rockaway Blvd. Does anyone know what they're doing?
If there's any good news, it appears horse players will have nonstop access to the racetrack from Euclid Avenue in the morning :)
I must be too happy about that direct Aqueduct bus.... :P
Today in your .pdf copy, click on thumbnails and go to page 17. Pay close attention to the Cornellia St Cafe's directions, it has been going on everyday.
The Virgin Group business empire may want to get on board the Orlando-Tampa high-speed train project.
Virgin tracks bullet train
The Virgin Group business empire may want to get on board the Orlando-Tampa high-speed train project.
By Scott Powers
Sentinel Staff Writer
February 20, 2004
Virgin Trains, the rail arm of British entrepreneur Richard Branson's business empire, is talking to Florida officials about running the state's high-speed train from Orlando to Tampa.
Virgin officials roamed Florida this week to talk with contractors and officials of the Florida High-Speed Rail Authority, which plans a $2.6 billion bullet-train system between Orlando and Tampa by 2009.
If the train system gets built -- it has powerful political opposition -- the primary contractor would be Fluor-Bombardier, a Canadian partnership.
But Fluor-Bombardier's partners have no experience actually running a railroad, a concern raised by the partnership's competitor but dismissed by the authority as a future issue.
Enter Virgin.
"They came to Orlando yesterday and sat down and wanted to know more about the project so I gave them that information," said Nazih Haddad, director of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority. "They expressed they were very much interested in joining the Fluor-Bombardier team."
"They know their business," Haddad added.
Virgin Trains operates rail lines that run from Scotland to southern England, including two that use high-speed trains. The Virgin trains annually carry 35 million riders, including 15 million on the high-speed lines, said spokesman Will Whitehorn, a director of Virgin Group, the parent company of Branson's empire. Virgin Trains last year posted $1.3 billion in revenue.
This would not be Virgin's first interest in Florida high-speed trains.
Branson, a high-profile tycoon whose business interests include Virgin Atlantic airlines, Virgin Music, Virgin Megastores and Virgin Holiday, met with Florida officials in 1998 during the state's last attempt to create a high-speed rail system, dubbed Florida Overland eXpress, or FOX. Virgin never pursued the deal, though, and in early 1999 newly elected Gov. Jeb Bush killed the FOX project.
This latest high-speed project was written into the Florida Constitution by voters in 2000. But it still faces the governor's opposition. Bush is pushing a bill in the Legislature to seek repeal of the high-speed rail constitutional amendment with a statewide referendum next fall. Bush also has proposed no funding for the project, while the authority sought $75 million.
Whitehorn, the Virgin executive, said the company was looking more at the ridership and financial projections.
"We're looking at the revenue projections and getting comfortable with them," he said. "That's what we have to come to terms with."
Scott Powers can be reached at spowers@orlandosentinel.com or 407-420-5441.
Copyright © 2004, Orlando Sentinel | Get home delivery - up to 50% off
How does that work. Do they just operate the trains but Branson still owns the tracks and equipment? Much like a management contract?
Not really. Virgin Trains as a company is jointly owned by the two groups (Virgin and Stagecoach).
The Virgin group is essentially a marketing brand. In each different business area they tend to team up with an experienced player in that business; Virgin brings the brand to the party; the other partner the operational know-how. For example, in the case of Virgin Atlantic the partner is Singapore Airlines.
apparently, it's quite sucessful, too.
As we might have suspected, the N is local in Brooklyn late night, but don't look a gift horse in the mouth, Fred, the SEA BEACH EXPRESS IS BACK!
That's quite a cutback in CPW service. I don't have time to look it up now but I know southbound Bs are currently going down CPW after 10 PM.
I dunno if this is true, but I heard there are layups on the middle track north of 145.
So THAT's how they can get away with the extra trains during the rush hour :)
Since I see some services starting from 36 Street during the afternoon rush, am I correct to assume that these R trains will lay up for the midday somewhere on the center track of the west end line?
3 PM Peak Hour N Trains don’t start at Ditmars Blvd. These 3 N Trains start at the following locations. There’s 2 that start at 57 St and the other one at QBP.
N Trains that start at 57 St
4:31 PM Arrive at 86 St at 5:23 PM
5:02 PM Arrive at 86 St at 5:54 PM
The N train that start at QBP departs QBP at 5:47 PM and Arrives at 86 St at 6:50 PM
There’s 4 AM Peak Hour N Trains that do not end at Ditmars Blvd. Here are the following N Trains.
The 7:44 AM Departure from 86 St ends at QBP at 8:43 AM
The 8:03 AM Departure from 86 St ends at 57 St at 8:54 AM
The 8:24 AM Departure from 86 St ends at 57 St at 9:13 AM
The 9:05 AM Departure from 86 St ends at 57 St at 9:52 AM
The curious mind says, why all these locations for layups? The R we talked about, and now the N?
Heh, well if it all leads to better service, then there's no reason for me to be concerned. Let's just see what happens....
That's exactly how I interpret it.
A better wording would have been "Late night ONLY N trains operate between Ditmars...
Does anyone know when the AM service out of BPB stops? I want to get up there on Friday morning and ride a D express from Kingsbridge to 36th street.
That gives me enough time to get up there.
How can they cut it back to the shuttle at night? With the new pattern, wouldn't that mean that lower manhattan has NO night service? Or do they reroute the N and Q downtown after the R goes out of service?
Q Brighton Express Weekdays Only
B Brighton Local All Times
It appears not to be the B-sticker paster's fault entirely. It looks like this sign has been wrong since its installation, because the new B sticker is over the diamond Q symbol, which must've always said "Brighton Local" but was never corrected.
Of course, if the pasters had been properly trained to look for such errors, it could have been corrected on the spot by placing the B sticker over the circle Q symbol and placing a new circle Q symbol over the diamond Q. Or, if a circle Q sticker was unavailable, it would have been better to put the B sticker over the circle Q symbol, so at least the descriptions would correctly match the letters.
Brooklyn-bound trains run on the R from Canal St to DeKalb Av
Weekday, 5 AM to 10 AM Mon to Fri, Mar 8 - Apr 9
PDF details
Two guesses:
1) It may be switch work between Times Square and Herald Square - N service is like the pre-2/22/04 W service in that trains do not switch onto the express track at 57th Street, and it may be the MTA picked a good time to begin rehabing that switch just to throw riders off (much like they did with 5 riders this week - post GO posters about the loss of AM express service all winter, and with the first signs of thaw put it into effect).
2) Could be track/construction work in/around Whitehall Street that knocks out its middle track where post 2/22/04 Ws have to turn, leaving Lower Manhattan Bway service with only the R.
My money is on guess #1, though I will find out early tomorrow evening(I plan to head down that way to see the Ws through the Montague "rathole" for the last time - this will have to do since the bridge festivities will cut into bedtime for me).
2 - Then where is the notice about W service being suspended?
How's a trip tomorrow going to help with a GO scheduled to run next month?
Therefore, if the MTA hasn't screwed up its posters, that's what they will be working on. It makes sense - this way the work can go on for a full 9 hour shift instead of being cut down to 6 hours or messing up the weekend. Not many people desperately need a bridge N train in the southbound morning rush.
Because the W has been using the exact same route from Astoria to 36th St in Brooklyn as the N will now use. The only difference is that the N will now use the bridge portion of that route on weekends as well.
What might have made sense was doing the work on weekends prior to 2/22/04. But maybe it wasn't possible at the same time as other projects in the area of Dekalb.
I DO know that the "Brooklyn Bound (2) express train", the new "Wakefield Bound (2) train", and the new "West Farms Square-East Tremont Avenue" announcements are products of the updates, but I don't know about any others.
Anyway... I remember the line in Winsted, and some of the sharp curves that CT 8 made to avoid the line.
Elias
(but not quite).
I noticed on your thread that your train had a 32 minute trip. That's got a be a record!
I took 2 trips today on the Q express, one was 41 minutes, and the other was 50. A good portion of those 50 minutes was spent parked dead red at a signal before 49th street...
And the slants will continue to rule the roost, so I hear.
wayne
Are you kidding me? I *still* think of the (D) as belonging to the CULVER line!
(T) on the West End forever!
I just like the idea that they are finally back on the "B". Now, if they would only put them back on the "A" where they belong. :)
(NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH) (BTW... I like the New Look trains myself :) )
If you stand on the tracks, that is *exactly* where they will be.
: )-
Could you explain?
In fact, which car classes are the least comfortable to operate?
Get a smaller belly?
But I'm not a big fan of R44's either, they're the only 75-foot cars I don't like. Every time I rode them, I felt like they were going to fall apart. They've gotta go. Even the R38s feel more solid on the rails.
I betcha the (Q) wins that race hands down.
Elias
John, I enjoyed looking at the photos.
Q Diamond - July 23, 2001 to February 20, 2004
Now let this Monday be when the B line replaces the Q Diamond to be apart of history.
Regards,
Jimmy
Obviously the resignalling work has got 5 thru expresses going local for awhile. But once they're done on the elevated portion and go into the tunnel it gets messy. Weekends the line (and possibly the 2 as well) is a no-go, but now it seems that they're going to send some 5s to Brooklyn as 2s for the near future. Suggests some serious switch and signal work at X14L (I think that's the correct homeball).
Here's more: this evening as I was coming home from school, I see a GO poster at 149th-GC indicating that through late nights next week and next weekend, the 6 is going to replace the 5 between 125th and Dyre. Is that another MTA editorial error, or is that a meltdown in the making for the Bronx IRT?
Well, I wish I would have kept it out. The very next R train, led by R-46 5740, was not your ordinary (R). It was a brown ! I tried to get my cellie out for a picture, but I was too slow. With all the railfans riding the today, I'm sure one of you got a picture. Right? Please?
I was meeting someone at the southbound platform at 34th Street today, so I was waiting there for about 15 minutes. In that time, about 20 or so trains went by. I pulled my cellphone out at one point (to take a pic) when I thought I heard an R-32, but it turned out to be another R-46. I then put it away, dejected.
Well, I wish I would have kept it out. The very next R train, led by R-46 5740, was not your ordinary (R). It was a brown < R >! I tried to get my cellie out for a picture, but I was too slow. With all the railfans riding the < Q > today, I'm sure one of you got a picture. Right? Please?
Once the bridge tracks reach Manhattan one branch can go underground to the 2nd Ave. subway at Pearl St. while the other branch could go by City Hall on Park Row to the World Trade Center, close to where the 3rd Avenue El and Brooklyn El went 60 years ago when trains ran over the Brooklyn Bridge. Of course if Mayor Blumberg and the Wall St. crowd are offended by elevated subway/RR trains, than these elevated tracks could be built along the service road of the East Side Highway, south through the Battery and north along the service road of the West Side Highway to the World Trade Center. Is this a fantasy or a practical alternative to new tunnels?
Bridges are more expensive than tunnels. The largest expense is the right of way on land.
Timeline heading north
Newkirk Av 7:04pm
Church Av 7:07
Prospect Park 7:09
7 Av 7:12
Atlantic Av 7:14
Dekalb Av 7:17
Canal St 7:26
14 St/Union Sq 7:29
34 St/Herald Sq 7:32
42 St/Times Sq 7:33
Arrive 57 St 7:36
Total time: 32 minutes
So then I see the next Q diamond and I go into R40 4189 and while waiting I see the R40M train that contains R42 4665 on the N. So I take my final ride on the Q diamond heading south and bypassing 8 St I see the Sperry car heading north on the locl track & its a good ride via Broadway and we're cruisin over the bridge [can't wait for both sides to have trains :-)] and half of the < Q >'s I saw had the RF window occupied. So anyway we arrive back at Brooklyn and nothing of any significance as we go through the 2 track portion then the express run was just excellent then I go the distance to Brighton Beach where I say so long to the Q diamond [not literally ;-)] and then I wait for the B68 then I finish my trip. I really enjoyed the Q over the last 2 1/2 years and I'm looking forward to the B making its debut onto the Brighton.
Timeline heading south:
Leave 57 St 7:52pm
42 St/Times Sq 7:55
34 St/Herald Sq 7:57
14 St/Union Sq 8:00
Canal St 8:04
Dekalb Av 8:12
Atlantic Av 8:15
7 Av 8:17
Prospect Park 8:20
Church Av 8:22
Newkirk Av 8:25
Kings Hwy 8:29
Sheepshead Bay 8:32
Arrive Brighton Beach 8:36pm
Total time: 44 minutes
O5 583 B8
R40 4353 Q Diamond
R40 4189 Q Diamond
NF 888 B68
http://acm.jhu.edu/~sthurmovik/RiverLine/Front%20Cover.JPG
B:R68,R40(only used in rush hours)
D:R68
N:R40,R40M
W:R40,R68A
Q local:R40
til next time
wayne
And the new W will be an extended rush hour service. The <6> and <7> have run middays since time immemorial, they've never had a problem with diamond bullets.
But that had nothing to do with the diamond designation, which was for rush hour only service regardless of direction. Things shift, and people perceive a diamond now (if they know what a diamond is) as a special or express service.
Maps should match train signs. When a train has a rush hour only extension, like the M or 5, signs aren't changing mid-route, so there's no point to a diamond there.
You'll never see a diamond-1 or a diamond-4 or a diamond-D or a diamond-J because all 1, 4, D, and J trains bypass the stops they bypass during the times they bypass them. You'll never see a diamond-9 or a diamond-Z because the 9 and Z only run during rush hours to begin with. You'll never see a diamond-B or a diamond-M because those are route extensions, and, again, because all B and M trains are extended during the times that the extensions are in effect.
The map hasn't kept up with the changes, leading to unnecessary confusion. Someone should find a new symbol for the map to use for special rush hour services. At least the map doesn't claim that the diamond-5 goes to Flatbush anymore.
...only have the < W > sign...
i.e.:
Orange Q bullets were never seen until the R40's took over the route in October 1997.
til next time
How many R40's do you think there are?!?!
Maybe some R143's are out of service to install CBTC equipment?
As to whether anything was added or is being added, dunno. Someone in car equipment might ...
Church Ave Northbound, there was a hard problem in closing the doors, and the same Newkirk Ave and Sheepshead Bay Southbound. There was a huge party in the back, and I believe that's what caused the delay.
Very interesting indeed. I figure at 5:58AM though for the first B, people won't be in such a party mood.
wayne
>Death of the Q Diamond Party / Performance, New Orleans Funeral Style.
>
>brought to you by Action / Direction Creations
>
>
>
>On Friday February 20th, 2004 the MTA is retiring the Q Diamond train
>after more than 20 solid years of service, to make way for ?progress?
>and ?faster trains? over the newly restored express tracks on the
>Manhattan Bridge.
>Well, we aren?t letting the Q Diamond disappear without a party
>honoring its awesome service.
>Live music (hopefully) provided by members of the Hungry Marching Band,
>TrainArt created by the Toyshop Collective, recorded music
>(definitely) through multiple boomboxes.
>Eulogies and haiku, performances and skits, byob hysteria and we?ll
>provide the noisemakers. New Orleans funeral attire (danceable &
>fashionable
>black) requested. Bring your favorite
>recollection about the Q Diamond or any subway story and share the
>wealth. The train will ride from Union Square to Brighton Beach (end of
>the
>line.) Following the funeral, the party will continue back Manhattan
>bound (via the Q circle) and arrive at Action / Direction Creation HQ
>in serene Ditmas Park West, Flatbush for a dance party extravaganza.
>
>
>
>Friday Feb 20th, 9:28pm sharp. Free.
>
>Meet at the very end of the Brooklyn bound Q,N,R,W platform in Union Square.
>
>Wait for the party train to arrive ? the last two cars of the 9:24pm Q
>Diamond from 57th st.
>Call xxxxxxxxx for more info or
>xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.com
MTH r-12's -delayed until april
MTH R-17 graffiti - till March
Just newly posted on the website......R-17 fan trip ready to run Yankees or Mets sets!!!!!!!!!!!
go to MTHtrains.com to see what I am talking about. Im gonna be broke!!!
Redbirds Forever
Dave
til next time
The Q was and always will be a Broadway line.
No, it was "temporary" ;-). Anyway I'm sure the farewell to the (Q) wasn't as big as this but I actually liked it.
Didn't Slants make any appears on the Queens Blvd. Line shortly after 9/11?
The photo says it all.
The MTA seems to be establishing Helvetica as their rollsign font. Just look at the ones on the R68/A and the R40M/S.
Well, after Googling, the engine corrected the spelling to be Grotesk.
Following this link will lead you to a purchase age, but look at the price!
:o
In any case, you could look for lower prices online, or you could use 'alternative methods,' but I won't discuss that too much...
In any case, you could look for lower prices online, or you could use 'alternative methods,' but I won't discuss that too much...
Well, "alternatives" are fair enough ;-).
The (N) comes to Queens, and I see Slants on the (N) all the time.
So in all actuality, what farewell?
W Bwy
One wonders what Webster thinks of all of this and what will happen to all of the spelling books. And you thought Russian was a complicated language!
: ) ELIAS
Wikipedia, a free online encyclopedia has a very concise listing on NYC's Subway, with links to NYCSubway and Straphangers. Check it out.
Where it has served no purpose whatsoever was the night service over the past few years from lower Manhattan to Bay Parkway. Those trains have run empty or nearly so from 7pm on, Monday through Friday. I would imagine that the MTA knows this, but they bent to pressure from politicians who claimed that this service was needed when the north side of the Manhattan Bridge was closed. Hope they enjoyed their little victory, because this service was of no value.
Looking forward to the revamped service beginning Sunday, when all the new lines will actually have passengers on them.
*laughs*
I regret leaving hte EmTeeYay on ONE hand, fattest check I did at the time, but OH MAN, the BRAIN DAMAGE of splits *and* WAA. :)
You really have to be there to believe (or un-believe this)
The Times photographer's photo caught the spirit of the event.
According to other SubTalkers, one signbox was removed from the side of the car and the <Q> reading ripped off the roll curtain.
What if the bklyn IRT #4 line was extended to BWAY JCT along eastern pkway with its relay tracks stopping at
ST johns Place,St marks Ave, Atlantic Ave, BWAY JCT/fulton st/bway
We took off at 8:35 from Brighton Beach to 57/7 and back. LinclN, AP, Operational Engineer, New Flyer, Thru-Express and the VC Madman (Ozzy) were having fun. AP was in the front car on the N/B run while the others took the last car, peacefully I should say. We were laughing at the errors on the maps and all the good stuff us railfanners had to enjoy. Some of the funniest moments didn't happen with the partygoers (not related to Subtalk), it was so funny when Lncoln asked me a question and I whipped out a couple of prior Subtalk posts. Man, really I cannot keep secrets any much longer, lets just say that I had LincolN and Trevor on the floor (Have you seen this person on the Q train somewhere?). Getting back to the trip, at Atlantic Ave on the S/B side was another Q diamond with the incorrect rollsign (Had Orange S and starting from 59th st/CC). Over the bridge and arriving at 57/7 we took off two minutes earlier at 2122 and enjoyed the ride, or so it seemed.
At 14th st/Union Square, a large contient of photographers snapped their flashes as our train started to arrive at the station. I though there was a secret bunch of Subtalkers who were goig to join us at the first car. No it was a freaking party group that took oer the last 2 cars and trashed them by the time we got to Brighton Beach. I mean I was the first one to see this nonsense. The Q bllet cutouts were hanging all over the place with signs, loud boom-boxes, drking, partying, really got out of hand. They were holding up the train at every stop in Brooklyn as if they didn't want this to end. By the time the smoke cleared, a rollsign was ripped apart at one of the last two cars, confetti was all over the place. Most of us witnessed this ritual in one form or another. A gate keeper was stationed outside the last 2 cars as lookout. I mean it was ike Webster Hall on the BMT
We arrived back at Brighton beach and caught the next Q train out of there before something happened (I think AP went out somewhere else, we were too fast.) Suddely there was a fight between me and Ozzy but it was all fun.
Really despite a few trolls on this board, most of us Subtalkers really have class and know how to hae a good time while respecting our subway we ove so much. Thanks for a wonderful time.
THE TIME TO MEET FOR THE D TRAIN WILL BE POSTED IN 5 MINUTES.
I was at home.
LinclN, AP, Operational Engineer, New Flyer, Thru-Express and the VC Madman (Ozzy) were having fun.
You forgot me!
Getting back to the trip, at Atlantic Ave on the S/B side was another Q diamond with the incorrect rollsign (Had Orange S and starting from 59th st/CC).
You forgot the yellow B, it was in the car we were in; it had its gears stripped out and was stuck on yellow B. We also saw 2 cars signed for the B on a train moving in the opposite direction at Atlantic Avenue. Also there was an N sign on the end of the 2nd car.
Regards,
Jimmy
http://foody.org/q.html
There are my own snapshots, not an official site.
Josh
Regards,
Jimmy
Chuck Greene
Thanks for the photos. But the Q diamond only existed for two years, not twenty. Are you implying that you think the actual cars themselves are being retired?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I know it goes against early history, but maybe they should have flipped the other end. The B (which used to be Washington Heights not so long ago) and D are both Concourse services, and, except in one direction in rush hours, they are almost identical services on the Concourse Line.
So maybe they should have kept B-West End and D-Brighton and make the D the part-time CPW local and the B the full-time CPW express. At least the confused on the northern end wouldn't be taken far from their intended destination.
Thoughts?
How SWEET that day would be :)
Paul, I was thinking the same thing too. Although it would get a little used to the new service pattern. I agree with making B on West End again and D on Brighton and with the B operating as a full-time CPW Express and the D line as a part-time CPW local.
Personally, I think that when they were designing the service pattern for CPW service, they should have made the B line as a full-time service and the D line as a part-time service.
Right now, that's all I have on my mind right now. You either might agree or disagree with me on this response which I typed up.
Ahead of spouse or significant other, family, meals, school, work, even laundry or taking a shower?
:0)
That's why the R train needs love more than most. To raise its self-esteem.
Yeah, I know about yard access;just a silly railfan fantasy.
I won't even touch the C.
You would hardly call *that* a LOCAL service.
Elias
And would be so again if the TA would heed my advice.
: ) Elias
Only from 1949 on and then only during rush hours. Even then it still stopped at 50th St. It did not stop at Spring St until 1955.
W Bwy
Or not. In Brooklyn, the change is from Q-diamond to B, not from D to B, in any event. The people who will be confused are those on this board.
But the B will go to a different place than the Q diamond. There is also the N no longer going through the tunnel, and the W being replaced by the D and going to a different place.
The MTA and NY Times says they expect it to be confusing for a short period of time. They are probably right. No big deal, however. Not worth thousands of posts.
This whole discussion does raise an interesting question: how do people think about space and directions, both on the subway and on the street?
Perhaps because I have a city planning background, I am interested enough to know not only where the subways go but also where most of the roads and streets go. I have maps of most of the area, and actually use them. I want my children to learn what the street grid is so they can get around to new places easily, and not get lost just by getting turned around and losing track of a series of visual landmarks an a well know route.
It seems, however, that there are lots of people who never pay attention to maps (subway or otherwise) or street grids, who just know the few routes they routinely take between the few places they routinely visit. For such people a change in routing may indeed by a big deal, but there is no reason why it should be.
Add this to the list of life skills no longer passed down from parent to child, along with cooking, cleaning, keeping a budget, etc. Devo.
These are skills that were always passed down selectively.
I know someone who grew up in Queens in the 50s. When she went to Manhattan in 1968 for job interviews, she had not been told by her parents that:
- W xx Street has the same street numbers as E xx street, so make sure you're on the right side of 5th Ave.
- Street numbers on cross streets increase as you get away from 5th Ave.
- The light being on on the roof of the taxi means it's available.
I once visited someone who lived at xxx yyth Street in Philadelphia. He knew I was coming but had expected me to call and ask for directions. It was probably my 2nd time ever in Phila, but I had a map. He was totally flabbergasted that I showed up without asking for directions first. He had no idea how I could have gotten there on my own.
All my friends call me "Magellan" because whenever we go someplace, I always avoid traffic jams, and the "secret" is because I have a map with me to find alternates.
--Mark
ROFLMAO
With the Advent of 911 out here in the sticks, we had to invent a street grid system for our cows. What they did (and NOT what *I* would have done) was to divide the state into quarters, (divided NW SW NE SE) and Avenues (N/S) and Streets (E/W) are numbered from the center to the edges of the state at one mile intervals. (We are [about] 87th Avenue SW).
Most of the hicks out here are confused by it, and it does not help me that I am dyslexic and cannot read numbers, but It does make addresses easier to find. Granted, most roads do not go through or do not exist, but you can look at the grid map, see where you need to go, and what roads to take to get you there.
It is interesting to drive through the National Grasslands... mile upon empty mile, with street markers telling you what street would be here, if there were streets here to begin with.
You see, the fire department had it easy: if they could not find an adress, they at least could see the smoke signals. With the ambulance... well it will take a long time before the vultures start circling your house.
: ) Elias
You can take the entire pooulation of Slope County (two counties to the south of us), Put them on a (7) train, and the rest of the regular comuters on that train might not notice the extra people.
But we do have 20+ trains a day through our town. Not bad service, if you are a lump of coal.
: ) Elias
All *I* said is that the regular commuters would not notice the difference! : )
Besides, you have to admit that that is a rather small population for such a large (in area) County.
: ) Elias
Some place a *LOT* colder than that!
It's interesting to see how people adapt. When I first moved to Long Island, a city planner friend (who is now retired frm planning and a transportation consultant) was fascinated that LI roads follow European practice, where the same street may change names several times in a few blocks, based on history.
This is true of long roads, too. Long highways often have multiple names, based on reasonable history. For example, the old main through road on the south shore is Merrick Road in Nassau, Montauk Highway in Suffolk. But in Suffolk also, it is South Country Road (Jericho is Middle Country Road, and Northern Boulevard/25A is North Country Road).
Just traveling through the first few towns in Suffolk, the street signs on Montauk Highway say Merrick Road in Amityville, Montauk Highway from Copiague to West Babylon, Main Street in downtown Babylon, Montauk Highway (finally) in West Islip, South Country Road in West Bay Shore and Main Street again in Bay Shore.
But old-timers in the area tend to call the whole mess "Merrick Road." That's one of the reasons they started numbering through routes a century ago.
And yes, they do shift numbers of highways sometimes, but what they don't do is change route 25 to route 27 and route 27 to route 25 because of where they go at their western destination.
I think part of the reason may be that you have a series of country lanes , each with only one name. Then you create a highway using the former route of one of the lanes in one section, another of the lanes in another section. That gets really confusing. The highway says Merrick Road and then Montauk Highway, but there is a Merrick Road near Montauk Highway that is not a highway.
At least the Brighton is still the Brighton, no matter what route runs on it.
That is not the case. All of these roads date back to continuous trails traveled on by Algonquins.
That is not the case. All of these roads date back to continuous trails traveled on by Algonquins.
Often, but not always. This is probably true of Merrick Road from Jamaica to Amityville (and the road name is fairly continuous), but in Suffolk Montauk Highway was not continuous, but rather consciously established as the southernmost all-weather highway in the county.
Remember that different tribes had different spheres of influence and east-west travel may not have been as important as north-south travel in some cases.
And some original Indian trails were abandoned in favor of other routings. For example, the eastern end of the original Babylon-Farmingdale was abandoned in favor of a more south-westerly routing and is now an improved path in a former part of Belmont State Park.
As Windsor said, in some cases the main streets of individual hamlets and villages were connected to form continuous highways.
If you are looking for an address on Merrick Road, you had better first know what town it is in.
Elias
You basically can still tell the differences in towns but there is a sense of continuity along Merrick Road. I can get a feel for how it must have been 100 years ago in Queens or Brooklyn, as the once seperate communities merged.
The area bounded by Merrick Road, Meadowbrook Parkway, Old Country Road and maybe Bethpage Parkway has always had my interest. A large area filled with many busy streets yet completely webbed with numerous quiet residential blocks. Nice and flat; easy for walking. I like the way it grows more urban as the decades pass. Merrick Road has a little of the feel of how Jamaica Avenue used to be. To be walking along it, seeing buses stopping, people walking, gives me a good feeling. So un-mall-like it's just refreshing to see it out here.
An accurate description, though there's one disadvantage of the development patterns along Merick Road - no room to build more parking at the LIRR stations.
The distance between Merrick Road and Sunrise Hwy east of the M.P. makes for the two business areas seperated by residential blocks the standard pattern there. And it is a very good design, IMO. Places like Bellmore and Massapequa are inadvertantly following good urban design practices. Nobody seems to think of them in that way but it is very evident. Probably anywhere else in the country it would be considered "city living", with the transit options available, and the pedestrian-scale street network.
Interesting. I haven't been through Bay Shore in quite a while, probably a couple of years. Have to check it out next time I'm in the area.
Long Island downtowns may not be as endangered as some people think. Babylon, Sayville and Port Jefferson, just to name a few, have healthy-looking downtowns. The one closest to me, Patchogue,* is more run-down but has at least been stable for the past few years.
* = I'm actually in Medford, where there is no downtown at all!
Bay Shore has quite a few literal mansions, but this didn't help the fact that people living in them were afraid to shop downtown.
The County realized it needed to do something and after years and years of false starts, it finally seems to be taking. There is decent housing for poorer residents, Main Street is fixed up and is actually attracting some cutesy shops and $$$ from the Fire Island crowd.
Ordinarily I'm no fan of cutesy shops, but consider the alternative.
And the nutty aspect of all those fine homes south of Montauk...always reminded me of how it used to be in Jamaica Queens, when you went south of Jamaica Avenue. In reverse, of course.
But you're right, it's finally starting to take. I think the area between Main and Union Blvd in the area is shaping up nicely too. Not as desolate looking as it used to be. Do you remember a proposal, long before the Aquareum (sp) debacle, where permission was being sought to build new residential buildings, up to ten floors high, between Fourth Avenue and the next block west? This must have been at least 15-20 years ago. Well, I'd bet that within the next three years something like that is going to be envisioned again.
Isn't that where they built those subsidized town houses?
Anyway, I'd prefer garden apartments, just because tall apartments would be out of scale with the area.
Garden apartments aren't the best fit in this case, I think. It deserves a bolder approach.
"... and so it goes." :)
Elias
- - - - -
[After all, except for the Stillwell reconstruction, the D has been on the Brighton and the B on the West End for more than three decades.]
- The F spent well over 30 years in the 53rd Street tunnel before it was shifted to 63rd Street. Some people were confused at first, but they got used to it.
- The C spent well over 30 years using the Concourse before it was shifted to Washington Heights. Some people were confused at first, but they got used to it.
- And so it goes.
- - - - -
Maybe Transit should have used two completely new letters (X and Y?) instead of "confusing" people with the B here and the D there.
Unfortunately, some people still think it was a 'bad move.' Just look at some of the posts at RD. They still think F service 'suffered' a result of the creation of the V.
And those complaints are BS. It's obvious that the F is more efficient as a result of this move, its ignorance.
I might as well formally wish that you're ok since you were on hiatus for such a long time.
Yeah, but most of the posts on Riders' Diaries are crapola.
As computers have well established, there is such a thing as "intuitive". This was illustrated back in 1955, when riders at Stillwell kept getting on Brightons or Franklins, thinking they were getting on the D trainm despite huge signs to the contrary.
What happens with the "C" line? Do you expect Far Rockaway and Lefferts Riders get use to being on the Local track all the way to Manhattan?
That would be ridiculous! But expect that if they put the "B" line as full time, the "C" line will become a part time service, forcing the "A" line on the local tracks. AND I WILL NOT TOLERATE THAT!!!!
W Broadway Local
"Stop cursing!!! There are woman and children reading these words, you idiot. Show some respect, before you go off on another poster here. I think using foul language on this board is a much worse infraction than simply criticizing another poster. Cursing brings down the quality of the place. Busting another guys chops is simply s.o.p. on Subtalk."
Considering that what you say most often consists of moronic postings of recorded announcements we've all heard many times, which have nothing to do with post subject usually, I hardly agree with your self-assessment.
#3 West End Jeff
wayne
If Someone feels like responding to a DefJef post, they should feel welcome. They should also know that they're taking a post away from a quota of only 30, and that quota can fill up faster than you realize.
No, we are claiming he is TROLLING, not FLAMING. You are describing flaming, whereas we are saying he is trolling. Click HERE to learn what trolling means.
The B and Q line TTs say no Stillwell "through 2004". TO me that means, like, in 2005?
Anyway, service goes back in or around May.
In 2003, I can write "through 2004" and mean from now some time in 2004. Once it's 2004, however, the words "through 2004" mean through the end of the year.
But definitely now that it's 2004, the words imply no CI service till at least 1/1/2005.
Arti
-Robert King
I finally got two ! Where ? At the station agentt booths at City Hall BMT and 34th St. Herald Sqaure. I just asked for one of those mini Z maps. I tried 34th St. IRT Penn Station, but they had none.
Give it a try, won't hurt to ask. Get yours while they still are availble.
Bill "Newkirk"
The Original Configuration put the (F) on the Express Track and the (GG) on the Local. Switching then was kept to a minimum, as the upper level went to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, and the Lower Level went to Jay Street.
The lower level had been closed for a long time, and a fire at an inerlocking plant sealed its doom, but now that interlocking plant is being rebuilt. There is some speculation as to what service might use the express track, but it is pretty well assumed that the lower level will not see pasenger service stopping at Bergen Street again. This means that both the (G) and the (F) will remain on the local track, while perhaps a third service of some sort will use the express track.
If that were to happen as I have suggested it, here are some considerations to take into account:
1) the (G) cannot terminate at Smith-9th since the "express" tracks will no longer be available for relay ... therfore...
2) the (G) will have to terminate at Church.
3) because of some techicnal switching problems at Church, it seems unlikely that more than one service will be able to terminate there.
4) Any express train to use the lower level will therefore have to continue to Kings Highway.
5) Only one service can be turned at Coney Island because of the capacities at that terminal.
6) Any service using the center track (as a rush-way express) would have to terminate at Kings Highway and the Local would be the service to continue on to Coney Island. This is because of the track configurations at Kings Highway, and this in turn a result of the history of the Culver Line.
Now having gone this far, I might as well expound to you my recomendations for this service:
(G) Crosstown Local to Church
(F) 6th Avenue Local to Coney Island via Culver/Smith Local tracks
(C) 8th Avenue Local to Kings Highway via Culver/Smith Exp / via Rutgers
(A) 8th Avenue Express to Lefferts and the Rockaways (no changes)
(E) 8th Avenue Express to Euclid via Fulton Local (replaces (C))
(V) 6th Avenue Local to Chambers WTC
: ) Elias
Moreover, the change at Bergen was not a good one, up the stairs. And the lower level of the station was trashed by water, making it a lousy place to be.
I believe that happened after express service ended in 1976. Here a pic from 1975 of the lower level, still tiled and looking no worse than the upper level station:
It *is* a fan trip, and it is wrong railing...
Besides, when ever did the R-11s (R-34s) ever run on the (F)
Elias
As for 18th Avenue, a reading for that station is on the new ST rollsigns.
The F could be routed express if the V was extended to Church Ave.
NOPE. Then you would have both the (G) and the (V) terminating at Church, and as told, there is switching capacity for only one service.
NOPE. The (F) will be the LOCAL regardless of what else they do. The new scheme of things at MTA seems to be that the 24/7 train on any particular branch owns that branch and runs local on it. (ie the (Q) train), the part-time train is the express (ie the (B) train). It is the part-time train that runs express, and gets the short-turn.
BESIDES: you ain't heard complaints until you try to deprive people on that line of thier (F) service.
Elias
Church is capable of turning 15tph. Contrary to what you keep saying.
The (F) will be the LOCAL regardless of what else they do. The new scheme of things at MTA seems to be that the 24/7 train on any particular branch owns that branch and runs local on it. (ie the (Q) train), the part-time train is the express (ie the (B) train). It is the part-time train that runs express, and gets the short-turn.
And such is not the case with the A/C, E/R/V, 3/4, N/R (think monday nite) and D/N/R (4th av). C'mon, be real. Service dictates which train would be express.
In that case the F would run exp when the V would be extended.
And so? That is not enough capacity for both the (G) and the (V).
Yes, the MTA will try to serve the needs of the riders as best they can, but the plant cannot do what the plant cannot do.
(N) is local on the Sea Beach at all times.
(D) is local on the West End at all times.
(Q) is local on the Brighton at all times.
(D) in the Bronx is an exception but is running as it has ever run, and probably will not be changed anytime soon. But if it were to be designed today, it would be the Local and the (B) would be the express ON THE CONCOURSE!
When I speak of the line owner, I speak of the distal ends of the line, not what they are doing in the middle of their runs.
So the (D) is LOCAL on the WEST END, but it is EXPRESS on 4th Avenue and on 6th Avenue and on 8th Avenue. It becomes Local (for most hours) when it gets to the Concourse.
As far as the Culver is concerned... The Local Tracks serve Coney Island, the Express tracks end at Kings Highway. There is no switch to bring the express train into Coney Island. Clearly the 24/7 train MUST BE LOCAL.
You say that the MTA will provide the services that the people demand.
Indeed they shall: therefore the (F) will remaian local, because those big folks who wear the wigs FEAR THE WRATH of (F) train riders on the Smith-Church section of that route. They will not take the (F) away from them.
Elias
If the V were running 10 tph or more, it would not be sufficient. The V would never operate that many trains to Church.
(N) is local on the Sea Beach at all times.
(D) is local on the West End at all times.
(Q) is local on the Brighton at all times.
2 of those lines ONLY have local service, so this is a moot point.
One of them has the local service as the 24/7 train because it was determined that this service was more popular during off-hours; had it been determined that 6th av service was more popular then the B would have been the weekend train (or the D).
As far as the Culver is concerned... The Local Tracks serve Coney Island, the Express tracks end at Kings Highway.
You must be referring to a Culver Line where you live in North Dakota.
1. The S Bklyn Express tracks feed into/from one of 3 places:
(a). Culver local tracks
(b). Culver express tracks
(c). Church Lower Level Relay tracks
2. The S bklyn Local tracks feed into/from one of 2 places:
(a). Culver Local tracks
(b). Church LL Relay tracks
3. The Culver exp tracks end at Ave X, NOT KINGS HWY!
Clearly the 24/7 train MUST BE LOCAL.
Wrong. The rush hour local train would end at Church LL (with the G line). If both services could not terminate at Church LL, the V would be sent to 18th av.
There's no benefit to having the express train short turn in brooklyn. The only lines where this happens are Brighton and Liviona Lines, and both of these have high ridership at express stations down the line. S Bklyn Crosstown does not have this. So the express would only benefit people coming from places down the line (and the riders at 7 av).
Indeed they shall: therefore the (F) will remaian local, because those big folks who wear the wigs FEAR THE WRATH of (F) train riders on the Smith-Church section of that route.
This statement proves you do not know what you are talking about. These are the people who complain about 'poor' F service all the time. These riders only get mad because they would only be left with the G train. Tell them that they'll be getting empty trains to manhattan at almost the same frequency, and express service, and they'll bite
I don't think so.
Humor me for a bit, and look at my map:
Yes the center track continue to Avenue X where it becomes a yard lead.
But can express service go there? If so what train stops at Avenue U.
Do both a local and an express train run to Coney Island? No, they cannot: They can turn only one service there.
Can the Local stop at Kings Highway? Suppose you do cross the local to the Center Platform for Kings Highway, then clearly the Local and the Express must pass in front of each other, and this is a five yard penalty for delay of game.
Now look at the city bound track: Can an express train from Coney Island access the Express track? Only at Avenue X. But the what train will access Avenue U?
In reality, the whole center track south of Kings Highway is nothing more than a long yard lead. That is all it was used ever since it was inducted into the BMT. (Prior to that, Mr. Culver had his own terminal for his railroad.)
Now then, *IF* there were to be an express train on this part of the Culver Line, how might it work?
My Plan:
First AM express trains out would come from the yard, making Kings Highway their point of passenger orgin.
Later express trains would arrive southbound on the Local Track, enter the KH middle track, and return to the north as express trains.
Around 1400 hours the "express" would be local in both directions until the express track was cleared of northbound trains, and then south bound trains would run express to KH, and return north on the Local track.
Toward the end of the day, the extra express trains are pulled out of service at KH and are returned to the yard.
YOUR PLAN:
Express from CI must move to exp track at Avenue X. But you did not explain to me how local trains might service Avenue U, but skipping that station, locals could come from the yard on... er, on the express track? Well, ok allow that movement, right after an express goes by the local could move to the local track at KH.
But wait a minute, waht about south bound locals? Where to they go? You didn't explain how you would turn them?
Is there enough room in Coney Island for Two Services? (Also Alowing time for car cleaners to clean the trains?)
Back to MY PLAN again.
You keep assuming (V) service doing something on the Culver.
I am looking at a much bigger picture:
I would send the (V) to Chambers WTC giving 6th Avenue direct access to a downtown station.
I would send the (C) via Rutgers let it be the part-time express service to Kings Highway.
I would leave the (F) alone and extend the (G) to Church.
Because the Culver Express is a *different* service from the local ridership is more likely to balance out between the local and the express based on where people want to be in Manhattan.
NOW EXPAND MY BIG PICTURE SOME MORE:
Presently there is a delay of game north of Chambers, where the (C) must merge with the (A). While my plan does not exactly eliminate that merge it does move it further north to 50th Street, where the (E) would merge with the (A) for the express track. It does eliminate one merge, in that the (E) will not merge with the (C).
So the MAIN REASON for my plan is to push all 8th Avenue Express trains through the Cranberry Tunnel without any delay of game at Chambers. The 8th Avenue Local (C) then move over to the Rutgers Tunnel and as an extra service, might as well be the express.
THE OTHER MAIN REASON for my plan is to give 6th Avenue riders a train to downtown.
Given these two goals to improve MANHATTAN SERVICE, we have the option of turning the (C) at Second Avenue (where now the (V) ends its run) or continuing on into Brooklyn and turning it at Kings Highway. Having an express train on the Culver, for the sake of having an express train on the Culver makes little sense. Providing an extra service, especially an 8th Avenue Service of which there is none in Southern Brooklyn *does* make some sense.
Anyway, that is how *I* look at it, but you have not yet convinced me that you can use the center track on the Culver for an express train AND expect that train to have access to Coney Island, unless you intend to terminate both the Local and the Express there, and for that there is not enough capacity.
Elias
Do both a local and an express train run to Coney Island? No, they cannot: They can turn only one service there.
The local can turn at Ave X. That track map doesn't show it, but One yard lead DOES have access to The N/B track. Schedule Coney Island bound exp trains to arrive just ahead of Ave X bound Local trains.
This is not how I'd operate service anyways.
Can the Local stop at Kings Highway? Suppose you do cross the local to the Center Platform for Kings Highway, then clearly the Local and the Express must pass in front of each other, and this is a five yard penalty for delay of game.
Ever Been to Parkchester? It's a terminal. The local is held for the express to cross.
Now then, *IF* there were to be an express train on this part of the Culver Line, how might it work?
I don't want express service on this part of the line.
My Plan:
First AM express trains out would come from the yard, making Kings Highway their point of passenger orgin.
Later express trains would arrive southbound on the Local Track, enter the KH middle track, and return to the north as express trains.
Around 1400 hours the "express" would be local in both directions until the express track was cleared of northbound trains, and then south bound trains would run express to KH, and return north on the Local track.
Toward the end of the day, the extra express trains are pulled out of service at KH and are returned to the yard.
So, the only stations served by expresses are:
Kings Hwy
18th Av
Church
7th
Bergen
Not enough ridership to justify this.
YOUR PLAN:
Express from CI must move to exp track at Avenue X. But you did not explain to me how local trains might service Avenue U, but skipping that station, locals could come from the yard on... er, on the express track? Well, ok allow that movement, right after an express goes by the local could move to the local track at KH.
But wait a minute, waht about south bound locals? Where to they go? You didn't explain how you would turn them?
Is there enough room in Coney Island for Two Services? (Also Alowing time for car cleaners to clean the trains?)
Again, I'd not operate trains as expresses south of Church Avenue.
If I DID:
Locals come from the yard, onto Ave X local track, which is possible, as F trains do this now.
Expresses and locals would share tracks at Ave X, with expresses in both directions arriving just ahead of locals.
--OR--
Rebuild the access to the express track at Kings Hwy, which isn't particularly hard to do.
Back to MY PLAN again.
You keep assuming (V) service doing something on the Culver.
I am looking at a much bigger picture:
I would send the (V) to Chambers WTC giving 6th Avenue direct access to a downtown station.
I would send the (C) via Rutgers let it be the part-time express service to Kings Highway.
I would leave the (F) alone and extend the (G) to Church.
Because the Culver Express is a *different* service from the local ridership is more likely to balance out between the local and the express based on where people want to be in Manhattan.
Again, Expresses should not short-turn whenever possible. The only place where this happens are places where trackage does not allow it.
I'd also Like to have a different train run down Culver. I too would run the C down the line part time, except It would be the local with the G train to Church. THERE SHOULD BE NO SERVICE BEYOND CHURCH AVENUE, AS THE EXPRESS SHOULD SERVE ENOUGH RIDERS TO ACTUALLY SAVE THEM TIME!!!.
Presently there is a delay of game north of Chambers, where the (C) must merge with the (A). While my plan does not exactly eliminate that merge it does move it further north to 50th Street, where the (E) would merge with the (A) for the express track. It does eliminate one merge, in that the (E) will not merge with the (C).
So the MAIN REASON for my plan is to push all 8th Avenue Express trains through the Cranberry Tunnel without any delay of game at Chambers. The 8th Avenue Local (C) then move over to the Rutgers Tunnel and as an extra service, might as well be the express.
You eliminate the E/C merge, and create a A/E merge. Good job. The E operates too many tph to run on the Fulton line. You probably will ignore that fact, but this is the truth.
THE OTHER MAIN REASON for my plan is to give 6th Avenue riders a train to downtown.
Not that there's immense demand for this, or that the existing transfer is complicated. Either way, I'd also have such a service, except that the V would serve Fulton, and the C would serve Rutgers as a local.
Having an express train on the Culver, for the sake of having an express train on the Culver makes little sense. Providing an extra service, especially an 8th Avenue Service of which there is none in Southern Brooklyn *does* make some sense.
The whole point of express service would be so that people at the end of the line could move faster, to a destination that's already very popular. Culver riders already have a convenient transfer at Jay st, and that transfer allows them to access the most popular part of the 8th avenue line.
Anyway, that is how *I* look at it, but you have not yet convinced me that you can use the center track on the Culver for an express train AND expect that train to have access to Coney Island, unless you intend to terminate both the Local and the Express there, and for that there is not enough capacity.
I don't have to, NYCT wouldn't operate expresses beyond Church, and I wouldn't want them to, but it is possible. There's also no reason for the short turning train to run express.
Indeed, if the V or C were extended to Church, the F would be the express, because Riders at the stations from Church and south would save time. There would be little reason to extend an express that would not benefit the riders, which is what your plan would do.
OFFICIALLY, I'd like to see:
(C) Local to church weekdays
(E) Local to WTC
(F) Express to CI weekdays, Local all other times
(G) Local to church weekdays, weekends/nights to Smith-9
(K) Weekends only from 168th to Euclid, local*
(V) Local to Euclid, Weekdays
The problem with this whole discussion, is that you can't see beyond your own plan, no matter how flawed it is. Church would be the southern terminal for locals, regardless of your sentimental feelings that the terminal be set at Kings Hwy. This would best serve the passengers from Church to CI, not an express train that barely stops anywhere, and that would not benefit riders at the end of the line, or at any local stops. The express stations aren't particularly heavily used, so you can't justify your plan, if you want to benefit riders.
*-this could be eliminated, and C service extended to WTC weekends. Of course, there would be no bklyn exp service, so....
(C) Local to church weekdays
(E) Local to WTC
(F) Express to CI weekdays, Local all other times
(G) Local to church weekdays, weekends/nights to Smith-9
(K) Weekends only from 168th to Euclid, local*
(V) Local to Euclid, Weekdays
I *can* live with this (if you can sell it to Carroll Gardens) since I, like you cannot really see much use for express traffic beyond Church. My Plan *did* start with the supposition *if*.
I still wonder about the turning of two services at Church, it was more designed to be a merge point with the (never built) Ft. Hamilton line to Staten Island than as a terminal. It appears to me that there is only one crossover and it is an awkward arrangement. Perhaps it can be fixed, but I doubt if the cost is worth it. My knowlede of the Church termianal comes from what I have read here, so take it with whatever salt you like, but on the track map, it sure does look nasty.
I am not convinced about the (V) to Euclid... I'd rather see it use the Church-WTC terminal, and I'd rather see the (E) run to Euclid.
I am told that the merge from 8 Local to 8 Express at Chambers is the cause of delays, but that of course is passenger talk... it could be that one train or the other is running a little early and must cool its heels while the other passes in front, but I rather think not, I'd rather see smooth sailing downtown.
The (E) used to run Express on 8th, though if there *is* too much capacity on the (E) (Assuming that we do not send it or some of them on to Lefferts, and send all extra (A) service to Howard Beach) some of them can run local on 8th and be turned on Second Avenue. The (E)/(A) merge at 50th Street is a smoother operation than a (C) or (V) / (A) merge at Chambers.
Elias
Nah, the Ft. Hamilton turnout was to be further north.
It appears to me that there is only one crossover and it is an awkward arrangement.
Pretend the 2 outer tracks aren't there, and it's just like Continental.
Those other 2 tracks could be used to pocket trains as well, but it's not necessary.
I am told that the merge from 8 Local to 8 Express at Chambers is the cause of delays, but that of course is passenger talk... it could be that one train or the other is running a little early and must cool its heels while the other passes in front, but I rather think not, I'd rather see smooth sailing downtown.
I ride the line everyday, and much more often than not, there aren't any delays, or ones that only last for a few seconds.
OTOH, merging with the E would have a set of trains merging, one with 12, one with 15, which would create worse delays.
I am not convinced about the (V) to Euclid... I'd rather see it use the Church-WTC terminal, and I'd rather see the (E) run to Euclid.
The (E) used to run Express on 8th, though if there *is* too much capacity on the (E) (Assuming that we do not send it or some of them on to Lefferts, and send all extra (A) service to Howard Beach) some of them can run local on 8th and be turned on Second Avenue. The (E)/(A) merge at 50th Street is a smoother operation than a (C) or (V) / (A) merge at Chambers.
Remember back when C service was suspended, and E trains were running to Brooklyn? I do. I rode trains from either Jay or High to chambers st. E trains were empty when that happened. The reason why is that there are too many trains on the unpopular local. Even passengers who use the local often transfer at the nearest exp station. So, it doesn't make sense to send more service down there.
The V is closer to present C service levels, and gives Fulton riders 2 options, possibly luring riders off the local. I know people who ride between Hoyt and Chambers, and they'll let multiple A trains pass in order to get on C trains which are ALWAYS emptier. Many C trains don't even reach the guideline load.
You know, that IS better. Even better than running the V to Metro Ave in place of the M (like I stated in another post) or running the V to Canarsie. Culver riders would also have direct 8th Ave service if the C went to Church.
It doesn't make sense to have the COney Island service be the local and the short turn V Church St trains the express. Besides,. your statement isn't true. Perfect example the A local on Fulton off hours, the 4 on Lexington, the J on Broadway (Brooklyn), etc.
Why dat? The procedure seems identical to the M's turning back at Bay Parkway. It switches from the local track, which it shares with a moderate-frequency service, to the middle track, while the other service continues past. The M doesn't interfere much with the W D, so why shouldn't it be the same here?
One possible plan:
F Culver local, Smith St. express. Coney Island to 179 St.
G Smith St. local. Church Av. to Queens.
V Smith St. local. 18 Av. to Forest Hills.
Both the F and V would stop at Ditmas Av.
Would that make switching too complex going northbound into Church Av., though?
Perhaps that's exactly what you were talking about. :)
The V operates no more than 9 tph, and the G no more than 7. According to Stephen Baumann #'s, train fumigation requires 4 minutes, meaning that church could never turn more than 15 trains. 9+7=16. But if the V were extended to Bklyn, it would likely not have 9tph, more likely 7-8. And the G runs 7 tph only for a limited amount of time during the rush hour. Therefore, the figure of Church av turning 15tph is very possible.
No, it shouldn't. With the F train there already, there would be no need for 10 V tph.
The C operates on a much heavier-used line, and it only has 7-8 tph.
That's exactly who will bitch. You could tell residents of Windsor Terrace that yes, you'll have fewer TPH to Manhattan but you'll get the G and keep it on the weekend. In Carroll Gardens, they already have the G and all the Fs.
But, they can take a G train and transfer to F or V trains, giving them more service.
If you had 10 tph on the V and 12 on the F, that's too many trains thru Rutgers.
10 TPH balances out nicely with the new R schedule in Queens.
Who says every V train has to run through to Bklyn? Not every R train used to run thru to Brooklyn.
Ideally, I'd like to have the V and C switch places at W4th, and have the V serve Fulton, and the C serve S Bklyn. More options for people.
Why not? 53rd St handles 24. 60th St handles even more.
From what I've observed, there are probably more people on the F after Jay St than before it.
Church can turn whatever TPH Continental can turn - its the same layout.
As far as switch design, the interlocking could turn as many trains as continental. Of course, If fumigation takes 4 mins as Stephen Baumann says, then capacity is limited to 15tph for every upper level track used.
As far as switch condition, it could be that the switches have not been maintained.
Look at the track map for the LL.
And those switches down there have not been well maintained (they've hardly been used since 1954).
What are you guys basing those statements on?
Every mainline switch on the system is completely serviced and run through all federally mandated tests every 30 days without exception. The lower level at Church is not considered a yard area - and even if it was the maintenance cycle only increases to 60 days.
Elias
The main issue seems to be the TA policy of not letting people ride into the relay which requires slowly clearing the trains of passengers.
With one train entering the layups and one train leaving the layups, there are 6 possible conflicting moves, and 6 possible parallel moves. Its the same ratio as a two track terminal with one double X-over, so the same efficiency.
If it were going to be rebuilt, then why not just add interlockings north of Church Ave. so that all trains could run local and no one lost any service? There isn't any rule saying express tracks must be used.
This is correct, but our speculations were on how to best use the express track.
Elias
Frank Donze article in Times-Picayune
Perley Thomas car on Canal St
Perley Thomas car turning from Canal to St Charles
Now see part II of the deal, in the Metro Section of today's New York Times. DC37 is about to agree to a Tier V for future employees, to pay for raises for current employees, who can then retire at higher final average salaries and leave the city.
Some folks had advocated a defined contribution (401K) plan for the city, with a city contribution. No such luck. The proposed pension plan will almost certainly be worth less, actuarily, than zero. Now only will the city be kicking in little or nothing for future employees, part of those employees' own contributions will be going to past employees pensions too. No wonder the Mayor doesn't want to let people out of it.
Better lower the hiring standards. Aren't you TWU guys glad that most of you don't live in the city? I'd advise getting out of the state, too.
I predicted this back then, not because I'm a genius, but because it was obvious. The future of Social Security, for those born after 1960, is obvious too. There is a generational war going on, with CEO types like Bloomberg and Bush and his fellow Republicans running up debts and the unions granting themselves benefits at the expense of future members. When they sign the deal between each other, our children and grandchildren will not be in the room. But they will pay.
If you are right, I smell a lawsuit in the making. I don't think you can force people to contribute more to a pension plan than the actuarial benefit they receive. That borders on fraud.
Yes, the party in power has been doing EXACTLY that with civil service employees for years now. That's WHY I quit the state and went to work for the wife. It's ALL about the "general fund" ... in New York, there is NO "segregated funding" ... every "user fee, tax or other encumberance" (including "state pension plan" which is what NYS uses to loot as opposed to the feds and social security) whenever the numbers don't add up to a "budget" then the pension fund is subject to an armed robbery. Except, if the gunbearers are your fine republicans, then it's COMPLETELY LEGAL. :(
But yep, you understand how it works now. Scwoo you ... *AND* your GRANDCHILDREN ... "and your little dog too." It really *IS* like that. :(
But hey ... look on the bright side. Ken Lay is *STILL* walking the streets. White people do FAR better "crim." Would you like cheese on your Halliburger? :)
Our only hope is that as a result of similar federal (social security and Medicare) policies, the decline in the national standard of living will be so great that the difference betweeen New York and elsewhere (as a result of deals like this) will seem insignificant.
I completely and thoroughly AGREE with you - as I've often said, they're ***ALL*** crooks ... demo, repub, birthday party, whatever. As I've also often said, it's ALL a matter of WHOSE face they stick the gun muzzle into when they say "gimme your wallet, phaggot" ... (for anyone questioning, "bingbong" can attest that not ONLY am I "not ghey" but at my age, still don't need to click on them spams. Heh) But we have nothing to fear from our "neighbors" for we have POLITICIANS with LICENSE TO STEAL! ("Al D'Amato", Alstom, google the words) No sock fulla quarters required! :(
But I have sensed a *SLIGHT* difference - the republicans rob the till and give it to those who DON'T need the money - the democrats rob the till and at least SPREAD IT AROUND. Ralph Nader, when President, (and yeah, he IS going to run ... AGAIN. Agggh.) will give it all to Sweden. :)
Lemme repeat something I posted a LONG time ago rather than go further off topic ... let it be a lesson to all who think that we can continue having animule sex with pander bears:
Alexander Tyler, (in his 1770 book, 'Cycle of Democracy' )
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over a lousy fiscal responsibility, always followed by a dictatorship. The average of the world's great civilizations before they decline has been 200 years.
These nations have progressed in this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage."
Hmmmm. Sorry, after the "leadership" I've seen in the past 3+ too many years, I'll go for "SOUFFLE" on that Waring blender over THERE, Alex ... Ralph Nader, John Edwards, Louis Aboulafia, Gus Hall, Soupy Sales, or TIPPY TURTLE ... *anything* but the republicans.
NOW that we've seen ALL THREE branches of gubbamint under COMPLETE control by the "Contract on America party" and after all the hoopla over nipples (Oh sorry, ESPECIALLY OFFENSIVE "black nipples") on teevee, I have no doubt that the "regime in power" *IS* the Taliban - cower, all you gays! :(
I think it's time to honor Raygun and put a WARING BLENDER in the White House, and replace the republican congress and senate with REAL mullahs ... for over thirty years, we've been promised that "if *ONLY* we had a REPUBLICAN CONGRESS AND PRESIDENT" we'd be in shangrila. Whoops, America hasn't YET learned from history to stop listening to burning Bushes.
Bottom line - the "ruling party" has no boogiemen anymore. We have ELECTED the enema, and he is us. No more "liberals" in power to blame. Deficits, deficits, deficits ... "Oh it's OK to suck the blood out of YOUR grandchildren - American dollar is worth CHIT - "DOS PESOS por dolores." :)
But NOT a problem, we got IRAQI OIL for electing the repubicans to EVERYTHING. Buy some gas. Heh.
POPE on a rope - frankly, I'll vote COMMUNIST before I'd EVER vote for these phaggots again (after all, would "gay marriage" MATTER to anyone who knew what shined their flagpole without doubt?) Sheesh. JEDGAR HOOVER dressed up in DRAG ... and stained his OWN dress! *HOW* totally REPUBLICAN. Compare, Ashcroft, "justice's teat," and blue curtains. DEFINITELY not stable enough to rule, and yet he's DA MAN on who to view, and who to scroo. :)
So don't mind me, I don't disagree, but the rality is no matter *WHO* you vote for, they're gonna screw SOMEBODY. SHRUB *and* KERRY are BOTH "Yalie SKULL AND BONES" ... can we say the fix is ON? No matter who you choose, you lose? Coo-coo-ca-choo, Mrs. Robinson. :(
Like I said, they ALL steal. At LEAST the democrats "spread it around" ... as a pore old white trash Bronx homie, I'll vote for the phucker that gives mommy a turkey at Thanksgiving. Considering that we elected a TURKEY back in 2000, and we RE-ELECTED a PATURKEY last year, well ... I'll take Blenders for $100, Alex. :)
The question is who do you vote for, and what do you join?
But what would I vote for? "NONE of the above, TRY AGAIN with NEW choices." Absent that, looks like Kerry ... but I'd *MUCH* rather Reverend Al Sharpton myself as President (and I'm *SERIOUS*!) I've MET the man, chatted up the man, hung OUT with the man, and while he sure ain't got that "CNN spitshine" ... Unca Al's *REAL* ... he'd be the LAST person to give Halliburton a piece without giving BROOKLYN a piece, c'mon, let's get REAL.
Back to "real" ... who would *I* "give it to?" People HAVE the internet. You CAN put in your STREET ADDRESS and find out PRECISELY who has been slipping you the high hard one right in your HOME DISTRICT! Just a COUPLE OF SECONDS AWAY FROM SUBTALK! Heh.
FIND OUT who your elected are, and WRITE DOWN their names. GO to the polls ... vote for the ***OTHER GUY*** (***OR GAL!***) ... problem solved - is YOUR life screwed up enough yet, or do you want MORE? Fillup lately or are you living in a cave? SHRUB PROMISED US CHEAP IRAQI OIL. WHERE IS IT? :(
OK, we've lived our "republican takeover/Contract on America" REALITY ... can't we have something better? All I've got is this burning Shrub, and alas, it ain't throwing off enough heat to melt the snow and ice that's been out there since DECEMBER and frankly, we're getting tired of the 36 inches that just won't phucking go away. :)
It's the LIBERALS FAULT! They've SO discouraged the warm breezes of repcublican gasbaggery that's kept us warm in winter up here in the "Capital district" (sic). Heh.
But who do I join? The BIRTHDAY PARTY! Candles for EVERYONE! FREE! :)
Recall that it was Carl McCall, Mr. Wall Street himself, who cut employer pension contributions to zero and pushed through the big pension enhancement for employees at the same time. He wanted to be Governor, and he learned from the master how to sell out the future by cooking the books and pump up the value of your stock options (or their political equipment) before leaving someone else holding the bag. And the vote in the state legislature? 212 to zero. ZERO! After all, Sheldon and the boys got the enhanced pension too, didn't they?
Now all the state legislature has to do is ratify the Tier V for future employees to pay for it. I'll bet the vote will be 212 to zero again. After all, don't they have a machine that automatically tabulates all the votes as "yes" every time a measure comes to the floor, so members don't actually have to show up?
And as for TWU members whining about 20/50, why don't you propose this? Existing employees get to retire at age 40 with 15 minutues of work and no additional pension contributions. And to pay for it, future employees have to work 60 years until age 85 while contributing 60 percent of their salaries to the pension fund, after which they will receive a pension of $1.98 per year. Why not go all the way?
The US Constitution forbids the taking of property without due process of law. Federal law also forbids age discrimination.
So I think your tongue in cheek suggestions would last about 5 minutes before being overturned.
AIM must not be from New York. Here in New York, we know that when the Republicans and Democrats and their supporters can agree on something to do to us for them, then constitutions don't matter.
If they did, the MTA would not be so deep in debt, debt that was not approved by the voters in a constitutionally approved referendum. In than case, the MTA would have bonding capacity to use for a referendum to borrow the money it needs to build the Second Avenue Subway. Come to think of it, it would already have built the subway using money from the referendum it already passed.