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First off, I want to thank all of you that sent me information as to how
the term snakes came about for Switchmen. For those that don't know, their
union, SUNA used a very large S as part of their logo and it resembled a
snake. Although I have known a few over the years that really were on the
lowlife side but that is another story. The term grew from that logo. As
the great Paul Harvey would say, "And now you know the rest of the story."
Another item of note. We have been discussing the possibility of turning
the manuscript I have of HTOTHI columns into book for quite some time now.
We had one publisher interested but they dropped the project when they
changed senior managers. Another publisher I approached read several
chapters and passed on the idea. A third has still yet to respond and I
sent him several chapters way back in the summer. Recently I was given a
lead to a publisher by one of my subscribers. I have been in contact with
this publisher and we are working on a possibility of something happening
here. They did want me to ask what you the readership of this column would
be willing to bear for a price. We all know finances are tight for many
folks right now and don't wish to create a product that most of you cannot
afford.
So here is my question to all of you; would you be willing to shell out
around $35 for such a book? As of this moment I don't know if we would be
doing a hard or soft bound book, but we are trying to look at the potential
market. This may be the biggest part of assembling a final product. The
plan would be to include some photos, but it would not be a photo book.
Just several photos to accompany and support some of the text. Right now we
have some 211 pages of text, but that will likely be reduced somewhat
before we come up with a final draft for publication.
So now as if I don't have enough on my plate to keep my occupied for the
next hundred years, I'll be looking forward to your responses on this idea.
Please do me a favor though, when you respond, send the responses directly
to me. Don't respond to a discussion list. You can send your thoughts
directly to me at thetuch7@earthlink.net .
Thanks for your continued support.
Tuch
--- Joseph Santucci
--- thetuch7@earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
1) They have to collect fares (tickets or cash) from passengers FACE TO FACE. They have to keep their cash and ticket stock in good order, and remit any cash collected in a timely fasion.
2) They have to throw switches and derails when going in and out of a yard , and they have to apply a minimum of 2 handbrakes (and also chocks, depending on location) when changing ends or tying a train down.
3) They have to perform a brake test each time the engineer changes ends. To do this, the trainman has to either stand on the ground and look at the brake pads, or look at the gauges in the cab car or on the engine.
4) The conductor must be qualified on the physical characteristics of the railroad he/she is operating on. The main reason for this is in case a reverse move has to be made without the engineer having to change ends.
5) They have to "set up" the train whenever given different equipment. That entails making sure all of the doors, traps, lights, public address system, and bathrooms are in working order. Any defects must be reported on a special form.
6) In addition to all of the above, they still have to make announcements, and open and close the doors.
I hope that answers your question. I believe I had alreay mentioned something like this a while back when somebody brought up a similar question.
Engineers get paid more than transit T/O's because they need to be Federally certified and their jobs require a much higher minimum skill level.
Historically, decades ago, minorities had difficulty being hired anywhere in what today makes up MTA. Did the city transit organizations integrate faster than the suburban commuter railroads?
Regards,
Jimmy
why do MNRR, LIRR AND PATH workers make more than NYCT? simple
MNRR, LIRR AND PATH ARE RAILROADS
NYCT IS A RAILROAD AS WELL, BUT ITS UNDERGROUND WITH LOWER SPEED.
MNRR, LIRR, PATH MUST COMPLY WITH FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION REQUIREMENTS
NYCT DOES NOT
MNRR, PATH, AND LIRR Engineers, conductors and other related railroad crafts, require more responsibility and accountability because Railroad Trains go at higher speeds.
also the type of signalling makes MNRR, PATH AND LIRR RAILROADS. look at the signals of all 3, and look at the subway style signalling.
one interesting point tho, BOTH NYCT AND PATH WEAR UNIFORMS. MNRR AND LIRR ENGINEERS DO NOT WEAR UNIFORMS.
one last point. look at the maximum speeds in these railroads and the subway and look at the difference.
LIRR 80
MNRR 95
PATH 75
NYCT subway, i havent seen anything better than 52.
Having said that, I looked into employment at both LIRR and NYCTA over the years. You have to deal with more service intensity on the subway, but the LIRR is an old-fashioned railroad in its work rules and employee relations. Because of FRA and the way LIRR service is structured, you have to qualify every three years ON THE ENTIRE RAILROAD--you'd better know how many tracks and where and what kind the switches are in Skunkhaven Yard even if you never make the run. I know for a railfan that would be called "fun," but not for most people.
If you're sick, you have to show for work anyway and then go out sick--no calling in from Shea Stadium. A good excuse for not showing is that you're in a hospital bed with a priest reading you your last rites.
If the railroad tells you your crew has to take out another run, you have to take out another run. Violate either of the above examples, it's a "break in service." Get either three or five of these in a year (forget which) and you're FIRED. LIRR is not civil service.
How long to move up the pick list on the subway? On the LIRR, try 15 to 20 to get the terminal you want or a half-decent run.
I think it might be a good thing to tighten up the TA and pay more. For one thing, the Union Square Wreck would never have happened.
That's not the point. You have to show up to go out sick, then you'll be replaced. You can't call in sick.
When SEPTA decided 20 years ago that train crews were the same as bus drivers and trolley operators, I frequently heard on the Shadow Traffic report that the first Regional Rail train in from Norristown had been annulled because the engineer or conductor had called in sick.
one interesting point tho, BOTH NYCT AND PATH WEAR UNIFORMS. MNRR AND LIRR ENGINEERS DO NOT WEAR UNIFORMS.
PATH signals are similar to NYC subway signals, being color-coded instead of positional. There are a number of differences, however; mainly in the signaling of diverging routes and the numbering of signals. I can go into this in more detail if anyone cares.
I don't believe a uniform is required of PATH Engineers, as long as what they're wearing meets the safety requirements. I have noticed more PATH-logo clothes on engineers in recent years, but I don't think it is a requirement. Conductors have a uniform as that is a customer service position (and they're in the car for all to see, unlike the TA). But they seem to have a choice of uniforms.
Looks pretty much like it did last Wednesday afternoon.
I got some good photos of Sunday's activity. I started at the Wheatsheaf Lane foot bridge, just east of Frankford Jct in Philly, just in time to catch doubleheaded train 152. I saw from the bridge that people were at the site of the former Frankford Jct station, so I joined them. Turns out we had met there 3 years ago.
Amtrak Holiday Extras that we photographed included two Arrow III trains, train 3043 and train 3095, and a train of MARC equipment, Amtrak train #3074.
I uploaded to Webshots all the Acela Express motors, all the HHP-8's and long distance trains that I photographed, beginning with the last five on this Webshots page and all of page 3.
Thanks to the heads-up info from Mike Brotzman, I headed out to the Main Line to photograph Amtrak Keystone Service train #612, with SEPTA AEM7 #2304 and six SEPTA Bombardier coaches.
Maybe the timestamps of your photos can help me identify the trains in my video. I caught a lot of Arrow sets not stopping at Rahway, some of which had to be AMTRAK trains.
Peace,
ANDEE
-- Ed Sachs
However, as far as I remember the Standards never operated on an IND route other than Queens Boulevard.
Is it a coincidence that it was first proposed the year after the completion of the Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown line?
Is it a coincidence that it was first proposed the year after the completion of the Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown line?
Passenger Dragged a Few Feet
I've seen enough people put their foot on their door, in hopes of the C/R re-opening the doors.
OTOH: The C/R failed procedure by not seeing the doors, UNLESS there was a problem with the indicator light.
Some people need to work Sundays, you know... Not to mention family requirements, and catching intercity means of transportation.
There's nothing unusual about being in 'such a hurry' on a Sunday.
People risk their lives every second of every day. It's not in contention that taking stupid risks is stupid.
The assertion that people have no reason to be in a hurry on Sundays is a serpate issue and is just flat out wrong.
Now a question for you. How much of a hurry should a person be brfore they risk their life on the subway?
Now for your last question. If you were going to Howard Beach-JFK on the A line, would you want to wait 20 minutes for the next train?
Personally, it's not the end of the world if you have to wait another 5-10 minutes. But if you have to wait 20 minutes (or sometimes more - the Far Rock A at about 11 to midnight is 30 minutes and the M during Williamsburg Bridge construction was 24 minutes) it's worth it if you can get part of your body in the door, PROPERLY. But don't go sticking your foot through the door and let the doors close on your leg. That is NOT a good idea.
Elias
R-32.
Seeing as the risk of draggings hasn't prevented the deployment of unattended ATO subways it's unlikely to be much of an obstacle to the deployment of OPTO. OPTO is so much cheaper that very little will stand in its way.
R-32.
Onions.
There is nothing stronger than Onions!
Onions defy all common cents.
Elais
How can it tell which people are stupid and which ones are not?
Not that it matters, since the R-62A's have similar door sensors.
So much for relying on the sensors.
Of course no matter which fleet of train youre going on, its never a good idea to put your body into the path of closing train doors. ESPECIALLY with children.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
It takes so long to unload the center cars that the C/O seems to get bored and close the door on boarding geese on the Flushing line. I've had this happen twice now, and I'm tempted to let myself get dragged just to put the C/O through the drug test as a punishment. I'm not going to shove disembarking passengers to the ground just because a lazy C/O won't let me board, when I'm standing right at the doors.
They report that it happened at Union Square on a northbound #5 train. There's quite a difference between 7th Ave & 14th and the Union Square IRT platforms. Then I remembered that the #5's were running on 7th Avenue yesterday.
But Union Square platform raises interesting questions. Due to its highly curved shape, are there any special procedures for closing up and watching the train as it pulls out. I realize that there are cameras there, but I wonder how much a conductor can see once the train leaves the station?
I note that the crew got a drug test, did anyone test the WOMAN?
And another interesting question - the redbirds were removed from service because of "dragging incidents" and the "new tech" was supposed to eliminate that ... to paraphrase, the doors are supposed to be SO sensitive that if a penny was stuck in there, you wouldn't get indication. I find this ... troubling ...
To quote Rene Descartes LAST WORDS: "I think not."
: ) Elias
She deserved every inch of that drag for her stupidity.
VC Madman
The artist was Woody Jones from Mechanical Amusements based in Georgia. The MTA commissioned the model.
Grand Central Model
1. There was a fleet switch on the Q and W lines, many R68A trainsets showed up on the Q while R68's roamed the W. Still some R68's on the Q, but not much.
2. The 6 was running express S/B from 42nd St/GC to BB and the 7 line was not running west of QbP. But try telling that to some C/R's on the lettered lines when making announcements, typical as usual. Don't they have the list of G.O.'s on them when they are on duty?
3. Announcment on the Lexington line: "...there is no #7 train service at Grand Central. For 7 train service transfer at 59th st for the N or W train to Queensboro Plaza, or trasfer at 51st Street to the E and V trains...". Someone needs to read a subway map.
4. Signs at 125th st/Lexington Ave finally corrected, on the downtown local side, the "late nights, 4 train stops here" is covered. Man this confused people since the signs say the #4 train uses BOTH sides at night.
5. Interesting announcement on a S/B #4 train, C/R did let us know that the #7 was not running but told customers that to get to the #7 in Queens, take the shuttle to Times Square and walk through passageway to the E at 42nd/PA and take E to Roosevelt. HUH?? Can you take the #6 to 51st St and save all this trouble walking?
National ERA has a Web site too
-- Two days of full fan trip coverage of the MUNI streetcar system using various PCC's, the "Boat", a Milan Peter Witt, and Muni 130
-- One day bus trip to San Jose to ride/tour the light rail there (which I missed because I was dumb and screwed up the departure time)
-- One day bus trip to Rio Vista railway museum
The only thing we didn't fan trip (officially) or have any sort of tour was BART, but maybe this time will include it. I ended up staying out there 9 days (if you haven't been to SF you will want to extend your stay, if you are thinking of going).
I enjoyed BART too. I only rode one line, the line to Richmond, where there is also an AMtrack station. It feels kinda like a cross between subway and commuter rail.
Is this true? if not does anyone have the story behind it?
Secondly, they are building like crazy in the area. On the Ave X bound side, Smith 9th Station, looks like a Gigantic "Loews" is being built. (probably to knock out the Hamilton Ave Home Depot and honestly in my opinion well deserved)
Has there ever been any talk of changing 4th Ave Station for both local and express service? with all this building lately, has the topic come up in the MTA?
At one point wasnt there even talk of tearing down that overpass and submerging that section of the F line?
Actually I believe it's a "Lowes" that is being built at that location.
I thought it was the name of a hairpin bend on the Monte Carlo Grand Prix.
When watching the Grand Prix of Monaco earlier this year, I kept thinking of the hardware store. Oddly, when I saw mention of "Loews" here, I thought of the movie theater...
I always thought the IND designers were being generous at 4th Ave & 9th St. Especially when you consider the lack of any transfer between Atlantic/Pacific & Fulton/Lafayette or between Jay St & Lawrence St.
I don't mind that they're both local stops. It preserves the nice long run between 36th St and Pacific St on the BMT. And a good amount of space between 7th Ave and Bergen St (if ever they bring back the Culver express service).
Besides the MTA put at free transfer between Jay St & Lawrence St into the Capital Plan. That way folks on the 4th Ave express and the (possible) Culver express can all have a convenient transfer. Which is why I doubt the MTA will ever bother to spend the mega-bucks to make either 4th Ave or 9th St an express stop.
Secondly, they are building like crazy in the area.
With Park Slope becoming what it is, I hope the MTA will want to polish up the 4th Ave station, remove all the paint covered windows, install some plexiglass (or reasonable facsimile) and let the sun shine in. Many folks have described the station house as an art-deco-diamond-in-the-rough just waiting to shine.
When was Lawrence Street added as a station, before or after the IND was built? Remember that Lawrence St was not original to the line, it was built as an afterthought into the tunnel after the line was already up and running.
With Park Slope becoming what it is, I hope the MTA will want to polish up the 4th Ave station, remove all the paint covered windows, install some plexiglass (or reasonable facsimile) and let the sun shine in.
I agree, but I think this is more in line of what they will more than likely do at 4th Ave:
The windows at the Franklin Avenue Shuttle terminal have remained, so far, pristine. But then again I don't see many people loiter anywhere near those windows. They all wait by the platform.
People could watch the traffic go by.
Good point. How about this...the eye-level window panes could be clear and the upper window panes could be stained glass. The waiting commuters' eyes are drawn upwards and voil! The pice de rsistance of the station.
Have you seen some of those glass stained windows? They are like rocks and extremely durable. At Myrtle-Broadway, they are even right in the signs, and people lean against them with their foot and they are fine:
I guess at 4th Ave they could make some clear glass cutouts to be able to look out too.
Hehehe, yeah the experience of waiting for a train at 4th Ave could be like going to church or synagogue.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/4thavestation/4Ave.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/01/nyregion/01RENT.html
Metro has thrown down the gauntlet, and what a 21st-century gauntlet it has thrown.
Strapped for cash, our subway moguls are planning to abandon the quiet, calm look of their trains and stations. Here come TV sets inside each car, spewing ads 24/7/365. Here come swoopy, animated commercials along the outside of each previously sleek and simple train. If the Metro board has its way, our subway will soon look as if Disney took it by the throat and said, "Bor-r-r-r-ring."
Of course, boringness was always the whole point. Metro never had the clatter of New York's IRT, the filth of Boston's T or the shuddering 19th-century-ness of Chicago's El. In Washington, the whole experience was supposed to be cathedral-like -- and it has been. If it ain't broke . . .
But the budget is. So Metro is willing to cashier peace and quiet to obtain a few dollars.
To say the least, I'm not happy about this. Neither are thousands of others. If customers abandon Metro because of its new pinball machine look, the system might lose as much in vanished revenue as it gains from squiggly, blaring ads.
Permit me to introduce you to a man who got it about Metro's calm, collected look. Reason: He invented it. His name was Harry Mohr Weese.
Weese was the Chicago architect who took 16 years to design our subway. More than 27 years ago, a young reporter named Bob Levey hopped a plane to Chicago, where he interviewed Weese for The Washington Post on the eve of Metro's first great expansion -- from a downtown lunch-hour toy to a 24-stop, 17-mile system.
"This was the nation's capital, after all," Weese told me. His marching orders were to produce "an imperial subway. We were winning the war in Vietnam, remember? We could have guns and butter."
Weese proposed several design fillips that the Metro board rejected. He asked for backlit lists of stations, rather than Metro's infamously hard-to-read pylons. He also recommended individual reading lights inside cars, similar to those in airliners. Both proposals were shot down for lack of funds.
As for station design, Weese told me that the waffle-grid finish on Metro's vaulted ceilings was a way to achieve "that cathedral-like quality. We wanted it to be dignified and serious. We wanted people to be respectful of their surroundings and of each other."
Re-read those last two sentences. Is there anything in Metro's new advertising plan that you would describe as "dignified," "serious" or "respectful"?
Obviously, much change has come to the original Weese design. Signage is much easier to read. Farecard machines now accept credit cards. Message boards tell you how soon the next train will arrive. In-car announcements can be heard outside cars, too. It's all proof that change can be good, that change is inevitable.
But why is garishness inevitable? To allow TV sets in every car and squiggly, moving ads outside every car would do major violence to Harry Weese's great plan, and to his memory.
text of article from the NY Times.
--Mark
I strongly doubt that any LIRR train will ever see an A/C tunnel. It would be a hugely expensive job that would probably have a negative impact on many more riders than it would help.
I think getting the LIRR to lower Manhattan is a pipe dream today. It did exist once (as a result of the BRT-LIRR track sharing agreement of 1897-1917) but it will never exist again.
LIRR Tunnel on Forgotten NY
LIRR I believe ran it with steam until steam was banned. Horse drawn carriges did the trip I believe, until finally LIRR re-started service, but only to Flatbush Av.
I'd like to see the LIRR extended into Manhattan, connecting with the PATH and various subway lines at the proposed Lower Mahattan transit hub.
Build the new WTC station as a through station, with its East end at Broadway, then a second Downtown Manhattan station with its West end at William St, then continuing a new East River tunnel (aligned roughly Maiden La - Orange St) under Nassau St (Brooklyn), Ashland Pl, then connecting into the LIRR at Flatbush Terminal.
So how about that? Newark to Far Rockaway, Hoboken to Babylon, whatever... What does anyone think?
That wouldn't stop a PATH train running on the LIRR, however, which was what I was suggesting.
If PATH were to go anywhere, I'd connect it somehow with the #6 at Brooklyn Bridge, in effect merging the PATH into the IRT, and connecting two lines that end nearby each other and go in different directions. I can dream!!
:-D "This is Woodhaven Junction. This train is for Howard Beach. The next stop is Howard Beach."
Build the new WTC station as a through station, with its East end at Broadway, then a second Downtown Manhattan station with its West end at William St, then continuing a new East River tunnel (aligned roughly Maiden La - Orange St) under Nassau St (Brooklyn), Ashland Pl, then connecting into the LIRR at Flatbush Terminal.
So how about that? Newark to Far Rockaway, Hoboken to Babylon, whatever... What does anyone think?
1) It will serve a new cooridor
2) It will connect to the air train - that is owned by the Port Authority.
A) it can be advertise as a connecting service for the two airports - Newark and JFK.
However, it is pretty expensive because of the size of the cars and the underwater tunnel needs to be built to connect it to Flatbush. But in comparison to the IND.. I think it's a better choice. It does not duplicate services that is already served by the IND A/C lines. And I like the fact it offers a one seat ride from New Jersey and a greater part of New York City.
I see another downside to the path.. The cars are too small.. It will have to run very frequent to be a very effective service. With all the cost involved, I see a better choice in running the IND - which will mean duplicating servic then extending the PATH. But the cheapest idea will be building a third track on the J/Z lines and run it as a special airport service.
The advantage is the lack of bottlenecks that is more prevalent on the A/C lines.
Just an opinion.
N Bwy
That's the great unknown...
However, it is pretty expensive because of the size of the cars
The width of the cars is not the problem - as long as the train length is the same it's not worth worrying about.
It will have to run very frequent to be a very effective service.
PATH does run very frequently. 40tph in rush hour IINM. That'll really boost ridership.
The way you seet the Montague tunnel.. I see that DITCH of a route you call seabeach.. It offers no view of the neighborhood it travel in.. At least the Brighton Line has a wonderful express service...
Anyway, I don't like you attacking the Montague tunnel.. I actually like it, because when everything else fails... It becomes the only viable alternative...
N Broadway
Ps: Stop picking on the Germans.. because it's turning to something very ugly on another thread.
Hey, but Fred - even if the N train still went across the bridge, wouldn't it have been cross-(platform)-contaminated by now at Pacific St?
Why am I not surprised?
To Be continued!
N Bwy
1. LIRR already goes to Manhattan.
2. It already connects to PATH at 33rd Street.
3. Current Penn destination of LIRR is not much differnt from Atlantic Ave., requiring a subway connection to a lot of destinations. I think making the station more atracctive is all that's needed and it's being done as we speak.
Arti
2. It doesn't connect, the tunnel was closed years ago, but should be re-opened
3. If LIRR went to downtown, it would mean less time for some people, and crowding on subways would decrease
If the Nostrand Avenue stop was removed and LIRR riders were given a free transfer at Jamaica, then...
GP38's "super express" would be an enormous hit with E, J, Z, LIRR, & AirTrain riders at Jamaica as well as A, C, J, L, & Z riders at Broadway Junction headed Downtown Brooklyn and/or Lower Manhattan. Thus reduce congestion on those subway lines.
The Port Authority would love it. It would make the AirTrain more attractive to Brooklynites and Manhattanites because it would be a one-seat ride, that's one to three stops away depending on where to catch it.
The Mayor would love it. It would make Downtown Jamaica, Downtown Brooklyn, and even East New York more attractive real estate for people and businesses thanks to reduced commutes. This would be in line with Bloomberg's plans to decentralize the city away from Manhattan.
Councilmen from Downtown Brooklyn, East New York, and Jamaica would love it. Bruce Ratner would see dollar signs. And Marty Markowitz would burn off 50 pounds doing cartwheels.
It would bypass 121 St to Cypress Hills, but then go local between Crescent Ave and B'way Junction. There would only be a peak direction express to and from the AirTrain terminal. That would be reasonable if JFK has a morning commute and a reverse evening commute. Plus it would bypass Atlantic Terminal.
Yes, it would improve the commute of J & Z riders, and I too support such an improvement, but it could not have the same effect as a dedicated super express.
Nope, it would rise up through the Cypress Hills station, over the Manhattan Bound local track, continue as a one track express over Jamaica Ave and rejoin the locals at Broadway Junction, thus skipping the entire Fulton St part of the J line.
In the past year or so, new outlets of two established businesses (Sleepy's and Mrs. Fields' Cookies) have opened their doors at the building now occupying the space where the downtown hub is supposed to go. These openings occurred after substantial renovation of the existing premises. Are these business going to be thrown out?
I wonder why.. that will provide a shorter transfer to lines enter upper manhattan and Brooklyn.
N Bwy
The total allocated I believe is $2.7 Billion specifically for a new PATH terminal at the World Trade Center site as well as a new Fulton Street Subway Complex, the two transit hubs will be connected by an under ground concourse that stretched from the World Financial Center's Winter Garden, through the World Trade Center Site, then to the Fulton Street station.
The permanant PATH station is going to be designed by Spainish Architecht Santiago Calabvatrava, the MTA has yet to designate who will design the Fulton Street Terminal. However they have pledged to save, restore and somehow incorporate the Singer building into the complex.
The site plan for the World Trade Center is nearly complete, they are to reveil the Memorial plan later this Month. When they announce the selection of the Memorial plan that will be the final step which will then allow rebuilding to go foward.
http://www.renewnyc.com/plan_des_dev/transportation/default.asp.htm
Way too late for the Singer--that came down in 1967. However the Corbin Building, Bway and John, will be saved. How you incorporate that ornate, rococo building into a modern design? We'll have to see.
www.forgotten-ny.com
One Liberty Plaza is now on its site.
N Bwy
The Federal Government gave all the money upfront for these two transit projects today, it's been paid for in advance.
"December 4, 2003
$2.85 Billion for 3 Transit Sites, With Strings
By DAVID W. DUNLAP
Substituting discreet electronic transfers for the poster-size checks that politicians like to hand out whenever cameras are near, the federal Transportation Department sent New York State $1.15 billion yesterday for two Lower Manhattan projects.
A third grant of $1.7 billion is to follow soon.
Norman Y. Mineta, the transportation secretary, looked empty-handed when he arrived at the World Trade Center PATH Station to announce $2.85 billion in grants. Asked where the money was, he smiled and said, "It's in the mail." To which Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg added, "The federal government doesn't drive up a truck into the back and out pours bills."
No, but it turned out that the Federal Transit Administration electronically transferred $750 million for the new Fulton Street Transit Center a few hours before the announcement. Later, it wired $400 million for renovating the South Ferry subway station. Today or tomorrow, $1.7 billion will arrive to help pay for the permanent PATH terminal being designed by Santiago Calatrava.
In what the federal transit administrator, Jennifer L. Dorn, called a "unique appropriation," the government made the grants immediately for projects that are years from completion.
This does not amount to a windfall; the accounts can be drawn down only on a schedule agreed to by the federal government. But state officials believe that having the grants up front will save time by eliminating the need to keep going back to the government for reimbursement at each phase of the development.
Mr. Mineta called the grants a "down payment" on a commitment of $4.55 billion for transportation projects in the city.
The Fulton Street center, on Broadway, will untangle several subway lines. The South Ferry project will replace a loop track with stub-end platforms. Both are to be finished in 2007. The permanent PATH terminal is to be completed between 2007 and 2009.
In piercing cold, Gov. George E. Pataki and Mr. Bloomberg took Mr. Mineta on a tour of the temporary open-air PATH station, including an emergency exit platform that offers a 360-degree panorama of the surrounding foundations.
"The towers aren't here," the governor could be overheard telling Mr. Mineta as they made their way through the station, "but this is still the site of the World Trade Center."
Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company"
FAO Schwartz used to be a great place to watch model trains in action, but they took down their displays about nine years ago. Anywhere else in the city or LI I could try?
Thanks.
Do they also sell them there?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
www.members.tripod.com/~KnightTime/bayridgemodelrailroadclub.html
We visited 12/27 ($3 adults, $1 kids) and they had the freight trains going, plus MTH cars on the el and the trolley too. Oddest thing - the freight lines have a side 3rd rail but the el has a center 3rd rail (where a side one would be protoypical)!!
To the south of the LIE is the Central Operating Lines. This is another O gauge layout. It is a club. They have open houses with free admission on Dec. 27, 28 and Jan. 24 from noon to 5. Their website can be found at http://www.trainweb.org/centoplines/index.htm
What I usually do is hit the Wrong Island RR then hit the Mickey D's off Hawkins for a Happy Meal & bathroom useage before going to the Central Operating Lines.
- Central Operating Lines = Sat., Dec 27th & Sun., 28th + Sat. Jan 24th
They are in Ronkonoma (631-472-3395) www.Trainweb.org
- TMB Model Train Club (only have a 2002 schedule, but was week-end after Christmas & the one after New Year's). They are in Babylon.
(631-225-0659) www.TMBTrainclub.com
- Town of Freeport Rec, Ctr will probally host a show the week after New Year's
- Northrop-Grumman Model RR Soc had a show in mid-Jan last year
- The West Island Model RR Club had, pastents a open house in Nov.
- Sunrise Train Div had, pastents a show in October
The East Side Access tunnels themselves, 5 in number as they fan out from the existing 41 Av tunnel's lower level, will emerge at the surface within Harold Interlocking.
http://www.parsons.com/about/press_rm/potm/08-2001/index.html
Just to ID the bridges in this picture:
From farthest to closest, crossing the LIRR:
Hunters Point Avenue
Thomson Avenue
Queens Blvd
Honeywell St
39th Street
43rd Street
That last on 43rd Street, however, is not a bridge. The street passes under the LIRR ROW at this point.
It looks like the Sunnyside station will be placed closer to the east side of the Queens Blvd. Bridge, to serve LaGuardia Community College, and that general area.
I found this on CNN.com. Can someone explain what Rumsfeld meant?
LONDON, England (Reuters) -- A comment last year by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on the hunt for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction was awarded the "Foot in Mouth" prize Monday by Britain's Plain English Campaign.
Rumsfeld, renowned for his uncompromising tough talking, received the prize for the most baffling comment by a public figure.
"Reports that say something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know," Rumsfeld told a news briefing.
"We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."
John Lister, spokesman for the campaign, which strives to have public information delivered in clear, straightforward English, said: "We think we know what he means. But we don't know if we really know."
Its importance is arguable; its appropriateness on this board isn't.
I still find it incredibly amusing :).
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3256884784
As for the Metrocard $399 is not out of the ordinary for a card from the original issue. The NY Times card from about the same time went on ebay for over $800.
The WTC card is scarce enough but considering that this is the Holiday shopping season will anyone want to spend the $399 (or more) now. QWith ebay you never know.
I have the original set in a case, but none of the next six.
I am sure the seller is gambling on that fact.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-lidrag1201,0,3226371.story?coll=ny-top-headlines
Gonna be real fun when Englishtown closes....
Meanwhile, elected politicians trip over each other to build stadiums for football teams that can't make the playoffs, letalone win the Superbowl with any usable regularity.....
LIMP was a sucky strip, but the town didn't know a good thing when they saw it. Those with streetable cars will be on the streets (surprise!), those with track cars are now stuck with the nice few hour trek to Maple Grove (very nice strip, but a pain to get to), or dealing with Englishtown (a long as it lasts, and oh yeah, got a muffler the size of a 50 gallon drum?). I think there's one in northern NJ, but it might be a 1/8th - yuck. Last dragster I was in, 1/4 felt too short (but actually took 8 seconds....)
The east end's too developed as it is, I'm waiting for someone to propose simply paving it like Nassau is...
Another reason I want to get my ass off of LI.....
PA Press Release
After someone guesses the location correctly, I'll pose my question.
Hot Dawg -- We Have A Weiner!
WHY IS IT TAKING SO LONG TO RENOVATE ONE SET OF STAIRCASES AT THE 40TH ST SIDE?
Its all about the labor, my friend. The longer it takes, the more bucks one rakes.
Whoops! Did I said 76?
76 and COUNTING.....
:P
LMFAO.
Look at what someone wrote above where it says 10/03.
James Bond, here we come.
-From "Thunderball" (1965)
Why does everyone think it's at Roosevelt?
They post before reading the previous responses. It's a dirty, dirty habit.
Though Roosevelt is a good guess, as there is construction going on there as well. There is a new staircase that opened on the Jamaicabound platform.
Why was your 5 rerouted? I don't know. Maybe somebody sneezed at 86th Street.
"This is a Brooklyn-bound <5> Express train, via the 7th Avenue Line. The next stop is...34th Street-Penn Station."
I took a picture of it at 14th Street.
You can tell it's not a 2 by the diamond-shaped area above the end door.
VC Madman
VC Madman
Why?
VC Madman
R62A and R62 are two totally different things. Same goes with R142 and R142A.
Sorry to nitpick. I'll only go back to the Transit Museum store at GCT when they start selling Redbird numberplates again.
The "Redbird Parts Coming Soon" banner has been on the mainpage for SO long...
The fleet has already bowed.
WTF are they gonna commence the sales?
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Not exactly. UNOFFICIALLY the "JJ" lasted right into 1986 on the R16s that operated on the "J". There was no rollsign for "J", so they displayed the orange "JJ" signs instead. :)
R32 to the Roof
R38 to the Gate
This Is What I Live For...
R 46's run second ... all due to design..
N Broadway Line
R32:
R38:
More pics
Hope that helps.
N Broadway
R-38's run only on the A and C. R-32's run on all of the lines you mention.
Differences:
R32/R32A:
-Fluted stainless steel up to roof level.
-Front is entirely fluted stainless steel (but sign bonnet is flat stainless steel).
-Number plates slightly similar to those on all post-R42's (not including the R42's) but in an uglier font. They're also smaller than the old-style number plates.
-Headlights and taillights bulge out separately redbird-style.
-Nothing on blind panel except door indicator light.
R38:
-Fluted stainless steel on lower half, flat stainless steel on upper half.
-Front is fluted stainless steel on the lower half and flat stainless steel on the top half. The sign bonnet has a large frame around the LED sign which is the width of the storm door.
-Old-style number plates.
-Headlights and taillights do not bulge out as much and each set is together (different design, but also made by Lovell-Dressel).
-The blind panel has a door indicator light, a TA logo II, and a radio antenna.
You're seeing an R38. Anything else would be R32 (except for #3348, but that's a different story).
R-32.
Well, if they were cats, you would lift up their hind legs and look.
Oh well.... I guess I got tired of this thread, having seen the 38s arrive on the system you could instantly tell them appart.
: ) Elias
R-32.
Plus, was cleaning up my hard drive and found a Q418 that I never put up from back in January. This was taken the morning after the derailment on the Low Grade near Wayne Junction. If the neighborhood wasn't a demilitarized zone, would be a good place to watch, with the CSX Trenton Line, the SEPTA Main Line and the Richmond Industrial Track. Count how many SEPTA trains go by while the Q418 passes under.
http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Video/Index.html
And it's amazing why some cars feel the need to pull in front of trolleys and trains.
Maybe I'm seeing this wrong, but to me it looks like the trolley overran a traffic light due to poor track conditions. Note that the traffic lights are red and the trolley narrowly misses not one but two vehicles. If there's anyone being stupid here, it's the trolley operator for driving too fast for the track conditions.
I was watching, and it looks like the guy/girl was just sitting there waiting to make a turn. The moment the trolley passed the stop-bar I see him pull in front and STOP in front of the streetcar. You either sit there and wait, or gun the engine and start moving, you dont' pull in front, and sit there waiting for the thing to T-bone you. or you RUN out of the car and away from the collision. Trucks, buses, suvs, this applys to.
And the, and I could be seeing this wrong, but it looks like the #%#$@ moron backs up after 4-8 seconds of staring at the trolley a foot from his face, instead of moving on or whatever.
That person needs a defensive driving course, because that mercedes still failed in about 3 instances, trolley having problems or not.
Also note the near miss with the white van. Hitting that would have hurt a bit more than merely turning the Mercedes into scrap metal.
At Herald Square the parade is actually just west of 6th Ave. so probably would not have gone under the old El.
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Try your hand at these: more NYC photos with no definite locations listed
This one is definitely either Knickerbocker or Central Ave on the M Line because it has an express trackway, but no track. Probably Central because of the lack of buildings near the canopy:
This one is also more than likely Central Ave for the same reasons above:
This one is definitely Knickerbocker Ave because I recognize that building on the left:
FWIH it had no switches after it began just south of Central Ave and was practically useless.
That's what puzzles me. If you look at the trackway it just sort of dead ends just south of the Seneca Ave station. I thought that possible the swithces may have been somewhere just past Wyckoff near the tower, and maybe an additional lay-up stub track went to Seneca. I heard what you just said once before though. I know that the express track was added in anticipation of the Canarsie line coming through Wyckoff on an el from Montrose Ave. The Tower may have been built with that in mind also. The early form NIMBY's in Bushwick got them to make the line underground instead.
Wyckoff may have looked something like Myrtle-Broadway if this elevated Canarsie line came to fruit.
That's what I thought for years, assuming that Wykoff was used as a terminal for Park Row bound el service during rush hours.
This one is on the Pelham Line at the end of the Manhattan-bound Castle Hill Ave station.
Bay Parkway, West End Line.
IRT Broadway Line, 207th St Van-Cortlandt bound platform, facing south
86th St, Sea Beach. Proximity of the old gas tank in the background is the giveaway.
Coney island Yard, outer loop track, adjacent to Belt Parkway, which is barely seen to the left of the D unit.
20th Ave, Sea Beach.
IRT Broadway Line, 225th Street, facing north.
This one is on the Pelham Line at the end of the Manhattan-bound Castle Hill Ave station.
Bay Parkway, West End Line.
IRT Broadway Line, 207th St Van-Cortlandt bound platform, facing south
86th St, Sea Beach. Proximity of the old gas tank in the background is the giveaway.
Coney island Yard, outer loop track, adjacent to Belt Parkway, which is barely seen to the left of the D unit.
20th Ave, Sea Beach.
IRT Broadway Line, 225th Street, facing north.
I'm 90% sure this is Broad Channel.
20th Ave, Sea Beach, facing north
IRT Flushing Line at 33rd St, facing 40th St
Sure looks like 74th / Roosevelt Ave, front of Manhattan-bound platform
Kings Highway, Sea Beach?
That's all the time I had, folks :)
--Mark
Good Work Sleuth Mark.
Definatley Church Ave/Brighton
Before my time, but near Grand Ave cutoff?
Before my time, but Rockaway, Saratoga, Ralph, Reid, Troy, Tompkins or Nostrand/Fulton?
Any station along existing Liberty Ave elevated
Possibly Knickerbocker Ave (green church spire dead giveway?)?
Bingo. No doubt. Definitely Knickerbocker. That big building on the right is still there.
Before my time, but Rockaway, Saratoga, Ralph, Reid, Troy, Tompkins or Nostrand/Fulton?
I agree with those too. The construction of the roofline narrows it down to Broadway, Rebuilt Fulton, Liberty, and Jamaica. The end construction narrows it further down to Liberty or rebuilt Fulton. It might not be an exact narrowing down, but it is almost definitely somewhere along either the rebuilt but now demolished Fulton line, or one of the remaining stations on the Liberty El.
On a similar note, Does anyone recognize this building? This is also either the Liberty El or the demolished Fulton line. If you get one of these photos, we got two. It's not Broadway or Jamaica because although the stations were built similar, they didn't have that type of railings. (on Broadway they had railings where they could built in billboards).
I'm thinking it may be one of the Fulton stations because unless that building is demolished, I have never seen it on a current line.
Here's our mystery photo again:
You are right, the photo appears to have been taken in the 50's, so that would rule out west of Rockaway Ave. I don't think there any "dual contracts" side platform stations east of Rockway.
The train appears to be on a fantrip. I'm still not sure about Broadway. The buildings to the left of that big building appear to be a "newer" type of building than what appear on Broadway, and Broadway's stations don't have railings with bars like that, they were railings with built in "ad panels", such as in the next photo taken at Chauncey St, that's why I keep ruling out Broadway. Jamaica Ave may have had "bar" railings without ad panels.
How about 111th or 160th Street? Anything like that building there, that has/had a center track. 160th had too many large buildings around it to be that photo I think, but what about 111th? The buildings to the left of that large building are consistant with many on Jamaica Ave and in this photo, it appears like there are "bar" type railings WITHOUT ad panels. In addition, in the bottom photo of 111th, there is a large building that looks like it could be the building to the right of the "ornate" building in the top mystery photo. Now, compare the top mystery photo to the bottom 111th St photo, that large building appears to be in both, and taking into consideration the railings, I think it's 111th St. What do you guys think?
This would then also be 111th St?
This would then also be 111th St?
I'll look forward to finding out what it was, and is, now. Karl B or Paul Matus may know.
Grimace, how about "Lipschitz" as well as "Lipshutz" (lips shut) ?
I know a couple who legally changed their name from Lipschitz to Lipsin, to end the inevitable razzing.
Amazing isn't it? All of Broadway went down in flames. Check out the Kosciuszko St section too on this site. There are buildings everywhere in the old photos, and anyone that visits the station now knows there's basically no buildings around it now, just like Chauncey.
The top photo is the photo in question. The 2 other pictures are at 80/Hudson for reference. I believe Chris R27/30 was the one who thought this might be on the old Fulton el. Looking at the picture, beyond the train I noticed that there are station columns. To the best of my knowledge, the Liberty el is the only type to have this particular type as shown. As to which station it might be gets difficult. From pictures that I have available to me, the rebuilt section of the Fulton el from Hinsdale to Nostrand looked just like the Broadway el. To me it looks like it could be 80/Hudson. The trees at the end of the station and their height automatically leads me to believe of the old cemetery (Bayside, I believe) which is shown in the second photo south of the station. There is really not much else to go on. I zeroed in on this piece of wood that is next to the 3rd rail in the photo. What that piece of wood is for I am not exactly sure of. In the last photo taken from the opposite side it appears that that same piece of wood might be in the picture. It is too dark to tell for sure but it looks like it might be in the same place. Like I said, it could be 80/Hudson but who knows? What do you think?
101st Avenue "takes off" from the north side of Liberty Avenue beginning at Grant Avenue. Oh for an image of the Grant Avenue station on the old Fulton el !
The "questionable note" on this photo is correct as This one is definitely 125th Street, as this photo taken at 125th Street is the same train, the same day, and the same backround.
So if a streeter gets a 100 and a Promo gets a 70, the Promo is called first before the Streeter. This is Civil Service Law.
Seriously, I know some folks who are doing that and they're VERY good. The old-timers who are doing the TA shuffle STILL have 32's (remarkably similar to redbirds undercar, just bigger) and other cars to avoid "computer duty" ... but as always, those TWU folks who know they MUST adapt have done so in stride ... for your ride. Agggh. :)
Its early days in this technology, but why shouldnt it be applied to rail cars, which are much more expensive? A 10% maintenance cost savings is worthwhile money!
For all the FEARS of new tech, Car Equipment and such, those who remain TWU members are GETTING "future training" or have picked off to where the "old cars" will keep them busy until they check out of this fakacta motel ("bad yiddish" INTENTIONAL, please don't BOTHER to correct me, went for Phonics fer dem goyim) ... heh.
Bottom line, Car Equipment *HAS* folks who do that, as well as folks who do *THAT* ... :)
Regards,
Jimmy :P
When *I* worked the rails, car inspectors (CI's and RCI's) as well as Motorman Instructors (MMI's) showed you ALL the tricks to keep the railroad running despite MINOR qwap) and TAUGHT you to "flip the boxes on the journals" as part of your wakeup "walkthrough" to make sure they were lubed ... ONCE upon a time, ALL of us in TWU were in the same army and we all got along as best we could ... aside from a few of us "white boys" who sided with "rank and file" faction ...
But "Special High Intensity Training" seems to be unfortunately the accepted "norm" these days. Once upon a time, us hourlies were ONLY concerned with running the damned railroad DESPITE the problems. I suppose now that there AREN'T "real" problems, too many damned wigs. :(
But as to the "new tech" folks ... they really DO have about as much of a grip as the vendors will ALLOW ... don't sell DCE short ... PLENTY of good, knowedgeable people there who MAKE TRAINS GO.
I suspect most of the propulsion trouble's going to be figuring out WHICH part's bad, at which point you swap out modules and let someone in a far away place with a magic soldering iron worry about it....
Can't argue though that a WISE person will want to keep up. Fortunately for the TA and those who work there, there's still plenty of good work for those who haven't, so everybody still wins. :)
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/transportation/nyc-nyferr023567446dec02,0,4856724.story?coll=nyc-topheadlines-left
Delta ran a water taxi to LGA for a while and then stopped it. Did they not market it enough, or are there really not enough customers? Bloomberg thinks this can work.
The reson that the Roosevelt Island's aerial tramway was built is because Coast Guard regulations were such a problem.
A relevant question is: Are there known navigational hazards around Roosevelt Island?
Also, I don't know if this would help, but I think they should run express and local versions of this service.
Express: WFC(if they choose to have a stop there)-Pier 11(the origin of the old LGA ferry)-60th st(or anywhere between 58th and 63rd sts)-LGA
Local: WFC-Pier 11-Fulton Ferry Landing-LIC-60th st-Roosevelt Island(northern end, not the tip, but close to the residential area)(No passengers will be provided service between Roosevelt Island and 60th st/92nd st)-92nd st-Randall Island(limited service?)-LGA
WTF!!!!!! Did I not just suggest that here? No, I am not saying that the city stole my idea, but it is weird. And I had that same terminus at JFK as well, Bergen Boat Basin. I really think this one cud be a major hit, IF ADVERTISED PROPERLY! Airtrain would also have to construct a new stop, or is there some stop near the boat basin already like the article implies?
Also, question. It's a really crazy idea, but, do any city officials or anybody in the transit dept of the city look at this site. It's just so weird that I've never heard the plan before, all while it was so obvious to me. It hit me as soon as I looked at my hagstrom map. Now, not even a month later, NYC is proposing the very same line? It just seems like such an odd coincidence that it just might be.
And yes, you should.
I encourage you to write. They should be hearing from you.
Like I said, there'd be an express service mainly to serve JFK, and a local service mainly to serve communities in the city, while giving them the option of taking the ferry to JFK.
:0)
Boats are slower than land vehicles. There is of course traffic that slows down land vehicles, and stops and wait times for rapid transit vehicles, but a ferry boat would be less direct than any of those modes.
"BoatTrain"?
What idea? Serving an airport you don't own, or using the ferryboats you don't have?
Hey, I hear you about the coincidences though. Me, I remember walking along the CRRNJ ROW from Bayonne into Newark in the late seventies, and thinking how sad I was that there was no train service along there any more. (Except for the Cranford Shuttle, into Elizabeth which I actually happened to stumble upon one day after walking over the Bayonne Bridge. Sure an' Begorra, I caught the train at the old 8th Street station to boot!) I looked at the area and was amazed at the high density of the ROW territory. It seemed a natural for this line to have passenger service returned to it, and I wasn't shy about expressing this viewpoint to others. 20 years later, comes the HBLRT. And I could point out other weird coincidences, some with a timespan of only a year or two. Ever hear the expression, "When it comes time to railroad, you railroad."?
Think of it this way: great minds think alike.
That ferry to Rockaway Beach, I thought it left from Sheepshead Bay. That's what my old hagstrom says, unless they had 2 ferry routes or moved it from Canarsie Pier to Sheepshead bay.
How did that ferry do anyway?
I'll take note on that saying you reminded me of, great minds think alike. I just don't know though if I'm thinkin like NYC and the PA that I've got such a great mind, or even worse, if they're thinkin like me. lol.
In any event, this was before the Marine Parkway Bridge. The only way to the Rockaways without going around through what is now the Five Towns (Rockaway Turnpike/Boulevard) was by ferry.
Kramer: Look at this, they are redoing the Cloud Club.
Jerry: Oh, that restaurant on top of the Chrysler building? Yeah, thats a good idea.
Kramer: Of course its a good idea, its my idea. I conceived this whole project two years ago.
Jerry: Which part? The renovating the restaurant you dont own part or spending the two hundred million you dont have part?
(* I can't remember if "they" were the LMDC, the Port Authority, Pataki, Bloomberg, or someone else.)
But given that in the near future, both the LIRR and the A train will provide service from Manhattan to JFK at what will presumably be much lower fares (the Delta Water Shuttle to LGA cost $15 one way, even though Delta subsidized its operation), exactly how popular will a JFK ferry be? It's not like the situation at LGA, where the only transit access is via buses that can be overcrowded and get significantly delayed in local traffic congestion.
As for the LGA ferry, it wont work unless they have an airport shuttle to go to the other terminals, and they need to advertise throughout the airport and a few commercials.
Unlike the route to LGA, which is reasonably sheltered water all the way, the route to JFK would seem to require the ferry to through some reasonably exposed ocean.
The ferry to JFK would probably do fairly well, and most likely will be very reliable. I mean, it doesn't get stuck in traffic, it doesn't have to worry about signals being knocked out. The only things that would slow up a ferry operation, along with really any operation of public transportation, is high winds, heavy rain, and snow/ice.
Not trying to make a point. Just wondering how rough it gets out there in winter, and whether that might lead to cancelled services.
I know Seastreak now operates ferry services to Highlands and Atlantic Highlands that must presumably face similar conditions, but I've no idea how often (if ever) they cancel.
According to their web site (http://www.seastreak.com/) their boats are 140' 400 seater catamarans. Not exactly a water taxi. :-)
Or, a heavier-than-air craft, to smoothly cross in a controlled float over Brooklyn and Queens. Perhaps, ala those drawings of 100 years ago, (and with computer controlled handling and stabilization of the vehicle,) have rooftop stations. Sure would make for an interesting skyline.
Am I serious? Prob'ly not.
Anyway, at 14th St, I hear Charlie say, "Transfer is available to the 1, F, L, and V trains. Connection is available to PATH trains." Good thing I was taping when it happened.
Also, hasn't there been a memo handed to all 2 line conductors telling them not to "ding out" the PATH announcement at Park Place? The station's been open for almost a week (as of Friday) and the conductor of the train I was on still dinged it out.
A big surprise (not as big as Charlie saying "V") came when I learned that the train I was on would run express south of President Street, stopping at Church Avenue ant Flatbush Avenue.
*pinches cheeks* lol
I was on an R-142A on the (6) that didn't have its strip maps updated. You know, it didn't have the new transfers pasted on top of the old ones.
Incognito
Perhaps the photographer was standing directly over the last set of catenary wires?
I seem to remember a lot of bridge abutments built for that Sheridan Expressway, and they stood unused for years when I lived in the Bronx.
Regards,
Jimmy
-Stef
The woman was dragged 4 feet. How long would that take? Just a couple of seconds? Her jacketed arm was in the door. She removed her hand, yet the jacket remained. The train operator got indication and moved. I assume the conductor scans both ends of the train as it pulls out. How much time did he have to react?
Did the train pulled out of the station? If the conductor pulled the cord, then I think he's off the hook.
Where were the grandchildren? On the station or in the car? If they were on the station, it would seem to me that the woman did try to hold back the doors.
Oddly, the woman credited God for guiding her. Would it be sacreligious to assign the blame in this case to the Almighty? Or does the woman bear responsibility for her actions?
If people were regularly and consistently sanctioned for truly frivolous lawsuits (easy to say, difficult to accomplish) this might be less of a problem.
Of course you can't sue the motorman and conductor since they are agents of the TA, but I added that in to enhance the example for this case.
>During tests, the system worked as designed, Seaton said.
To me this looks like they are setting up the c/r. In school car they told us that the sensor are sensitive to 1/16 of an inch. Now it would be VERY hard to drag someone by the hem of a coat that was that thin.
Now if she had cockroach killers on, the spot where the 2 doors join the floor can take an inch or three and stil give indication and from a monitor just look like someone is standing near the door.
You're the conductor. You're closing up at a station. A passenger runs up to a closing door on a non R142 and sticks his arm in the door. What does the rule book say you must do? Open up and allow the passenger in or jiggle the doors hoping the passenger removes his arm and you get your indication?
Let's say you jiggle the doors, get indication and leave the passenger standing on the platform. Are you required to give extra attention to ensure that the passenger is not stuck in the door?
Officials Say Train Sensors Were Fine
So even though it's the C/R's fault for not seeing this, the "victim" managed to disrupt N/B service on the rerouted #5 line. Imagine if this happened during rush hour?
One drag case on the M, the passenger claimed that on 2 track the OPTO T/O was smiling at them as he pulled out of the station dragging them out. It was established that no one else was in the cab. Operating a train while looking out your off side would make you VERY tall.
Depends on the material. You could easily strangle somebody with nylon that thin. Or mylar.
I am assuming that media accounts do not necessarily contain every detail of the case.
How long will the TA take to complete its investigation?
The thing the story doesn't say, how'd/when did the train stop or what happened that she got free. Was the platform crowded, did the conductor have a good view, etc...
If they can't prove that God told her to interfere with train operation, I hope there is a statute that does in the TA operations manual.
"What was your hand doing in the john between the doors?"
Religion is the opiate of the masses.
Having God on your side means having someone else to blame.
Some people draw inspiration from a supernatural concept and see it as empowering them to work and accomplish; others see it as convenient because it allows them to avoid facing responsibility for making choices.
Let it snow in College Park, MD!!!
Is LIPA really that pathetic?
This is in Greenvale, off Town Path road. Been like this for weeks. Told the house nearby they said they already called LIPA. Called LIPA again myself. The wires are drooping and actually 2 are off their insulators.
Again in Greenvale off Glen Cove road, there's another 3 phase primary wire going right through a tree
25A in Roslyn, a tree branch on one phase of wire
Another leaning pole, been this way since we got the remnants of Isabel.
So, you cant always fault the LIRR when they have signal problems in LIPA territory. More often than not, a power disruption messed up the signals.
LIPA's primary distribution lines are in such bad shape, I shudder to think what their secondary poles are like!
Chuck Greene
Despite the fact that as I have become older, my enthusiasm for snow has dropped markedly, I still believe in a white Christmaspreferably fresh snow on Christmas morning.
As for California being Gods country, I think God made it on the 6th day when he stopped to have some weed. Thats why it (and many of its inhabitants) are cracked!
Wait! I lived in the North East of England for many years. Like home!
Oh well.
I hear snow/rain for the trips this weekend, we shall see.
(sighs as the disappointment of no snow in the Rockaway flats on the A line)
Good thing the passageway along 50th between Broadway and 8th was closed today (why?), or I would have never known.
Whiteout!
Awaiting Todd Glickman's response, John!!!!!
The analogy is that that LIRR conductors and NYCTA motormen have no control over decisions made by their respective railroads' management.
Yesterday when it snowed I was on a comfortable MBTA Commuter Train (see, on topic!) bypassing all the people who were stuck on Boston area roads for hours. My commute took about one hour 15 minutes, about 15 minutes longer than usual. My secretary, who lives not far from me but drives to work, had her commute take THREE HOURS.
Hopefully, she'll learn her lesson!
John
Its been an number of years sense I last visited Metro Network's studio on Wisconsin Avenue in Freindship Heights, mid 1990s, so they may have moved sense then. Bob Marbourg does in fact work out of Metro Network's studio because thats where all of the traffic information is gathered and put in their data base used for the other Metro Network's subscriber. A number of the reporters heard on other stations are heard on more then one station, Such as the off peek reporters heard on WTOP.
Before Metro Network's set up shop in Washington, Bob Marbourg and Jim Russ use to do the reports from the field. Walt Starling flew his own plane out of Collage Park Airport for the reports he did for WMAL.
John
John
BTW, I believe you just insulted a fellow SubTalker with this posting...
Are those cars moved often, BTW?
So, was it snowing just 14-blocks from you, or was it the whole length of the 14-blocks that had snow? :)
What's the deal with that Orion VI though? That's a funky looking bus for an Orion, is the engine smaller or something? And even if it is, never seen an Orion with the door that far down.
Guy next to the bus got an interesting tag, "City USA", must be his own company or somthing.
Was it the Depression? The rise of the automobile? Robert Moses? Something else?
Actually all of the above.
However, what really prevented the Second System from advancing (it was never actuallt funded, so it was never actually "killed") was the fact that the City blew the rapid transit debt limit on the original system in its insistance on going it alone without the additiona of private capital, as in the Dual Contracts.
That's the answer, pure and simple.
It seems the Port Authority learned from that lesson when they built AirTrain under a DBOM (design-build-operate-maintain) contract with a consortium of private companies.
I wonder if the MTA has taken this into consideration for the SAS, 7-train Extenstion, et cetera?
Priorities changed, and highways and public housing was built, all within plans that would decentralize cities and make big new subways unneeded. This lasted until the 1970s, when cities started to be appreciated then, but the rot in mass transit was very advanced by then.
Either rusting hulks or very, very deep in debt. The SAS was needed, but if those repairs were put off any longer, the SAS might have ended up the only part of the system operational.
4 tracks over Manhattan Bridge have not been needed for 20 years, in that light Chrystie St connection is one of the most useless projects in MTA history. I'll take 2nd Av subway any time over it.
Arti
Yes - two lines to different places is better than to to practically the same place. The only bit of Chrystie that was a good idea was letting Broadway trains access the South Side of the Manny B. If they'd left in the connector to the North Side, service patterns would not have changed for the last 20 years.
The IND would have been totally worthwhile if it were built complimentary to what was already there. For instance:
2 tracks 212/Hillside to Continental, 4 tracks to 14/8 where 2 tracks join Canarsie Line, 2 tracks continue to Fulton Ferry then rise to take over El.
Arti
That's part true, and part false. I do agree, the IND was very redundant in some spots, but in others it was a good improvement. Unfortunately politics prevented it, but the BMT and IRT should have been taken over by the city and the IND properly incorporated into it.
-In Manhattan, the replacement and removal of the els was a good thing. The 8th Ave line is a good line, and enabled the abandonment of the 9th Ave El. The boondoggle was the building of the 6th Ave line before the 2nd Ave line. The money should have been spent on the 2nd Ave subway instead of the very expensive 6th Ave line. This would have allowed the proper abandonment of the 2nd and 3rd Ave els. The 6th Ave el could have been abandoned without the 6th Ave subway, as the Broadway line does basically what the 6th Ave line does. The 53rd Street tunnel could have been connected to the Broadway line somehow, and if money ever arose, the 6th Ave subway could have been part of the Second System.
-The Queens Blvd is a great addition to the system, and shouldn't have been built any differently.
-In Brooklyn, the IND's takeover of the Culver is also good, but it should also have been connected to the 4th Subway, and the original Clulver connection to 4th Ave should have remained. This would have allowed much flexiblity for normal routing, or emergency reroutes.
-south of West 4th is fine, except at Prince St there should have been a connection to the Broadway line, thus negating the need for the 6th Ave line further.
Redundancies:
-The Concourse line is a total waste of money, as it is redundant to the Jerome El The money should have been used to convert the Pelham line to the BMT/IND and improving the 3rd Ave line to allow Lexington Trains to run on it, negating the loss of the Pelham line (the 5 could have run there, and the 6 would run onto the West Farms/Dyre Line).
-The Fulton Subway was a total waste of money. The Fulton El was a Dual Contract El, worthy of subway cars. It should not have been built west of Broadway Junction (the section between BJ and the Liberty el should have been built as built, as it was either that or rebuilt the non-dual contract el, but the section west of Broadway Juction should not have been built) The Cranberry Tube should have been connected to the rebuilt portion of the Fulton El, and the money saved by not building the Fulton Subway could have been used by extending the line further into Queens where there was no service, isnstead of needlessly replacing perfectly good dual contract els.
If those redundancies were not done, we would have a bigger system today, and areas that have no service today may have it now. The Second System could have planned further expansion, and then, and only then could they have planned a "third system" that may have begun to replace some els with subway, such as on Fulton or Broadway (Brooklyn), etc. First expand the system, then worry about replacement in the system.
That Second System should have included a 5th Avenue subway instead. I understand the original objections to 5th Avenue transit, but 5th Avenue is mostly commercial south of 57th Street now and was by the 1930s, where would the NIMBYs be?
-Blair
Where was the pic of the S-curve with the man on the right?
2nd from the bottom.
I hpe the scum who murdered that young man last week in Far Rockaway die a miserable painful death!!
Guns dont kill People do!!!!!!!!
If citizens of this country were allowed to carry handguns onto airplanes,perhaps Sept 11 2001,would be just another normal day instead of the day of infamy it will always be.
19 evil men murdered THOUSANDS without 1 single bullet!!!!!!
ALL of you Anti-Gun Nuts think about that!!!
Evil is as Evil does!!!!!
Goldfinger (1964)
Executive Decision
U.S. Marshalls
The atmosphere at 30,000 feet is not a vacuum and an aircraft is not a spacecraft, not only can it not be perfectly sealed, there are valves on the plane that bleed air into the atmosphere to maintain pressure. A bullethole would be so small that it would be unlikely to cause any damage, a small air leak would result, and the existing outflow valves would be closed to make up for it. The chances of a massive structural disaster caused by a leaking airplane are between slim and nil.
In fact, on April 28, 1988, a major section of the roof of an Aloha Airlines Boeing 737-200 flew off in mid-flight causing a rapid depressurization of the aircraft at 24000 feet. The plane managed to land safely. The only major injuries were of flight attendants. One attendant was sucked into the stratosphere. Other flight attendants who were not seated with their seat belts on (I should point out that the seat belt light was still on) suffered various non-permanent injuries. The plane made an emergency landing at Maui Airport.
Very good, Pigs. If I recall correctly, the cabin pressure on a jetliner is set to about 6,000 feet altitude or so (I have read as much as 8,000). So the relative pressure difference in the Aloha airlines incident would have been 24,000 - 6,000 = 18,000 feet.
The aircraft's circulation system receives fresh air from the outside compressed to ambient cabin pressure and circulated inside; the system an also be set to recirculate air. There is a balance struck between fresh and recirculated air; the less fresh air from outside, the less demand on the engines, and the more fuel-efficient the aircraft becomes. This was a source of some controversy several years ago.
However, a relatively small amount of explosive in the right place (or A right place, as there is more than one) could cause a rapid structural failure and the loss of the aircraft.
Hyperbaric injuries from the decompression: the lungs arent built to withstand significant pressure differences between the outside and the inside.
Anoxia, which can lead to brain damage if continued.
"This was a tragedly that could have and SHOULD have been prevented if honest law abiding citizens were allowed to carry handguns!! If others had guns on that train I believe 100% that less than 6 people or even NO people would have been killed!!!!!!!!
Consider the close, confined space of a railroad car. If others on that train had guns then the death toll would have probably been even higher and Ferguson would still probably be alive.
"Guns dont kill People do!!!!!!!! "
And what do a lot of those people use? GUNS!!!!
Oh yeah. You think Hollywood ever paints an accurate picture of reality? Puhleeze!
If more good guys carried guns in NYC there would be less good guys and a lot more lawsuits for civil rights violations.
Keep your gun in Pennsylvania.
*I can't forget that date. It's what got us cops free passage on the LIRR, and also got us Senator Carolyn McCarthy.
No it wouldn't have. The hijackers were armed with boxcutters, then a legal weapon on airplanes. If they were carrying legal weapons, why did no one else decide to also use legal weapons to defend the plane?
If people were allowed to carry guns, the hijackers would also carry guns and no other person with a gun would dare to attack them. Until 9/11 hijackings were of a hostage nature, not a murder nature.
Chances are much better that the other civilians would have increased the body count by felling their fellow citizens in the confusion. They would have caused alot more harm than good.
An armed police officer might have made a difference - if he/she weren't felled. But it's easy and counterproductive to play Monday Morning quarterback.
This was a real tragedy. I don't see what there is to be gained by dreaming about a Rambo fantasy solving it.
We know which one is more likely - and your scenario isn't. On balance, we're safer without Rambo.
Now tell me how likely it was to be killed on that train?
"On balance, we're safer without Rambo"
On the contrary, being Rambo is probably the last thing someone carrying a concealed wepon has on their mind. The reason you carry a firearm is not to be macho, it's in case some crazy lunatic comes in and is going to kill someone. But, I have to agree that playing MMQ is counterproductive. May those who died rest in peace. And may Ferguson burn in hell.
Since it is almost impossible to get a carry permit for a handgun in NY State, no, we don't know which scenerio is more likely.
Japanese train sets record at 580 kph
It makes me wonder doesn't Metra have some way of enforcing the speed limit on its main lines? On the LIRR I believe the way it works is by a bell sounding when the speed limit has been exceeded and the operator must reduce speed NOW otherwise there will be a full emergency application. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, both locomotives were damaged, they will b returned to Boise for repair.
I don't know the details, but the speed limit is apparently temporary (track charts a few years old show switch speed to be 25mph). Anyway the only the guy was going to be doing 60mph is if he missed an approach signal, so tests on the approach signal ought to tell us whether he missed it. Recreation at the same time of the day and similar weather would have told us whether he saw a phantom signal or just wasn't paying attention.
It makes me wonder doesn't Metra have some way of enforcing the speed limit on its main lines?
No, except on cab signalled lines. I was told that many lines are still cab signalled from the days when private railroads installed them. In other places they rely on the engineer, but the FRA can show up at any time and point a speed gun at your train. Generally engineers are pretty good about adhereing permanent speed limits, but sometimes work zone limits that are on the track warrant can get missed if the guy is distracted. AEM7
What you posted was what was in the mag, with a picture of one of the units sitting crosswise with its nose somewhat bashed.
Nights (J) will terminate at St George, while SIR will act as a Staten Island shuttle. Some new platforms and fare controls would have to be built or modified, but if this could work, it would be better than the ferry(except it won't be free) and it would give the MTA more $$$ for the SIR (which currently only gets fares from St George, and possibly the Stadium, not sure). Plus they can get rid of many of those SI express buses. Many riders could avoid the long ferry, or avoid having to go into Brooklyn. Only problem will be that the Ferry may be in the way of the SIR/J train extension.
Another alternative would be to hook the SAS up to the SIR
What do you all think?
They're rebuilding the signals at great expense, so it's too late now, but they should have coverted the SIR (and the north shore line) to a BRT-style busway, complete with stations. That could have been profitable, because local buses from elsewhere could have gotten up on it and used it.
Streetcars, maybe?
During the morning rush on trains to St. George, the fare collection would be pay-as-you-leave[local travel], with all passengers paying at St.George. The afternoon rush would have passengers pay fares at St.George, while passengers boarding at other stations would pay-as-you-enter.
The equipment would be a modified, articulated version of the SEPTA N5 car, about 95 feet long. A two-car train would be adequate during rush hours, and require a two-man crew. During non-rush periods, a single operator would be sufficient, in operating the train, and collecting fares.
What would you think about this idea?
I agree that a tunnel should be cut but NOT for trains. My plan was to open a foot tunnel so people can walk/bike across the river from Staten Island to Manhattan instead of waiting for the ferry. Unfortunatly, my foot tunnel didn't win any support on these forums.
and close Atlantic and Nassau Stations and replace with a station In bewtween the former Atlantic and Nassau stations.
(Damn, I CANT seem to get over losing a Ultimate Ride nap to that tuna boi).
hehehehe...
Chuck Greene
Ditto me on the Saturday... Here's hoping we draw the 1 line on SUNday.
1MODVirgin9
I have more, but there's a 8Mb restriction..
Ask me if you have any questions.
Trams of type 100 are the oldest, cca 1962., made in Croatia by Djuro Djakovic. Trams of type 200 are a bit younger (cca 1970.?), made in Croatia also.
Tram types 300 (cca 1985.) and 400 (cca 1978.) are imported from Czech Republic.
The 900's are imported from Mannheim (Germany) - they are secondhand trams :-) (made cca 1964.).
The newest trams are those of "2100" series - 16 of them - serial#s 2101 to 2116. There were made by Koncar (in Croatia) in 2000.
Mnchen's U-Bahn - type A is from 1970's, B a bit younger and C is brand new. Right now all U-Bahn trains in my Mnchen album are type A.
S-Bahn: ET420 old ones, ET423 - brand new ones.
Arti
The other reason why Mnchen's subway is so clean could be that its stations are completely covered by surveillance cameras.
Also, there is U-Bahn-Wache - something like Transit Cops..
And perhaps a different mentality..
Wide-angle photos don't show dirt too well, for one thing.
For another, most other subways carry 1/2 or even 1/10th the passenger load of the MTA. Other systems very likely have the same percentage of slobs but the absolute numbers are so much lower that keeping the infrastructure clean becomes a viable option.
Dave, while I was checking out about this photo I found two errors on the 40/Lowery pages. Images 26160 and 4275 are not at Lowery. They both look to be on the el above Roosevelt Ave. but I am not sure where.
#4275 is actually @ 74th Street.
#26160 is actually @ 90th Street.
And I'm almost 100% sure that the photos that you posted are from 33rd Street.
A technical question: the camera is 3.2 megapixels and comes with a memory card that's 16 MB. Anyone know how many photos it will hold?
Usually with 16 MB memory you will get 8-10 pictures at high resolution, 30 or 40 at lowest resolution
you can always upgrade the memory card to 64 mbs. you could then save hundreds of pictures at low to medium resolution
This Is What I Live For...
I suggest you get a bigger one.
I have an 8MB, 32MB, and 64MB card.
The metric Im using is memory/price.
From the J&R site:
PNY 128MB costs $44.88
PNY 256MB costs $59.88
PNY 512MB costs $109.88
PNY 1G costs $229.88
So clearly $15 to buy you double the memory is worthwhile. After that, the increments vary from slightly less to slightly more than linear. There are other slight variations between brands, but the trend is about the same.
Shop around and see what you can get!
I've selected a camera that I want for Christmas. It's a Sony, and comes with a Memory Stick (16 MB, I think). I already have a 128 MB MS, so I guess I'll be switching sticks when the 16 fills up, or buying another one with some Christmas money I hope to get.
John
Look out Metrocard swipers and trolls, smile. Your picture from my phone may be viewed by anyone in the NYPD.
1. A pancake
or
2. Fried and well done to a crisp from a alien laser beam.
Are you talking about the battery sellers or the Metrocard swipers?
As for commercial activity, why not a permit issued by NYCT allowing them to do that? Offer a month-to month fee of, say $100 and allow them to hawk whetever they want (expcept Metrocards, of course). Restrict the permit to non-rush hour travel and make other restrictions as well. And why are people buying candies from kids on trains for $1 when a station newsstand sells the same candies for a quarter less? Or is it people are buying into their pleas to raise money for their "basketball uniforms"?
I'd be more concerned for people leaning over the edge (another violation of the law; entering any part on their body onto tracks and roadbeds), getting hit by a train and the T/O and C/R do the cup thing and the T/O will the tramuatized (possibly for the rest of his life) for seeing up close the face smacking, than kids selling candy.
Execerpted from NYCRR Title 21 Chapter XXI Section 1050.6(c):
"The following non-transit uses are authorized and permitted by the Authority...: public speaking... Permitted non-transit uses may be conducted in the transit system except when on or within: a subway car..."
Preaching on a subway car is illegal, too.
As for commercial activity, why not a permit issued by NYCT allowing them to do that?
Because commercial activity interferes with transit operations and competes with newsstands that are paying for platform space. It also makes the subway less desirable to ride. If someone wants batteries, they can buy them at the newsstand or at a bodega next to their station; no one needs them so desperately that they want to be disturbed by someone on the train hawking cheap knockoffs that won't last five minutes.
...allow them to hawk whetever they want (expcept Metrocards, of course).
Why not Metrocards? Newsstands sell Metrocards.
Restrict the permit to non-rush hour travel and make other restrictions as well.
Trains can get just as crowded during off-peak hours, especially when there are massive G.O.s. Picture an A train at Jay St on a leisurely Sunday afternoon, where a few thousand people have just transferred from crowded shuttle buses to a train. Now add to the picture someone squeezing through the masses with a little cart, shouting "battery, battery, eight for a dollar..."
If NYCT is unwilling to grant such a permit, then perhaps NYCT has reasons to prohibit selling batteries on trains.
Oh, and there's nothing illegal about sleeping on the train: "No person on or in any facility or conveyance shall: ... Sleep or doze where such activity may be hazardous to such person or to others or may interfere with the operation of the Authoritys transit system or the comfort of its passengers."
i.e., snoring is illegal.
I'm sure the NYPD would be very interested to know that someone is taking camera-phone "spy" pictures in the subway.
You're in Manhattan - who needs a mall??
The Manhattan mall was never the same when Sterns closed its doors. That Sterns had very good clothing for men. Almost as good as Macys.
Want some adventure? Take the mainline #5 to Gun Hill and change for the Bx28 bus in front of the station. This will take you to Bay Plaza shopping center but you might be better off with the < 6 > to Pelham Bay (last stop) and catch the Bx12 bus to "Bay Plaza" it runs through the parking lot.
Newkirk Plaza. :)
If you really want a trip (Long Island & Westchester)...
Broadway Mall: LIRR to Hicksville*
Galleria: MNRR Harlem Line to White Plains*
Roosevelt Field: F to 179 St, then N22, N22A, or N24; LIRR to Mineola, then N15, N22, N24, N78, N79;
The Source (Westbury): Same as Roosevelt Field, but N78 or N79 only
* At most, a 10-minute walk from this station.
For Cross Country Mall in Yonkers, take the #4 train to Bedford Park Blvd and change for the Bee-Line #20 bus which stops in front of the west side of the mall. You can also stay on the #20 to White Plains and the Galleria Mall. But if you want to go to White Plains, the fastest way is the Bee-Line #40 bus from East 241st (#2 line subway station, last stop) but only in the PM rush, 5:20, to 6:50 every 30 minutes but it's worth the fast ride. The fare is $1.75 and cash is only accepted on Bee-Line buses.
What??? That's good if you have three hours to spend each way!!! The Broadway Mall is less than a half mile from Hicksville Station which is about a 45-50 minute ride from either Penn or Flatbush or about a half hour from Jamaica. And if you don't get an M-7 or a diesel you will have the best railfan window ride in the Metropolitan area, the Main Line stretch from Floral Park to Hicksville!!
But why would a male want to go to a shopping mall anyway. Shopping is for women and it's boring as hell. To really have a great day tomorrow take the "A" to Aqueduct.
Hey, hey! Don't be sexist! My boy is ALWAYS bugging me to go to malls! His priorities seem to be, in order, stores selling video games; the food court; stalls selling Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh cards; glass elevators if available.
Wait till your sons are teenagers. Malls are major hangouts for teens of all sexes wishing to meet the opposite, especially in very hot and cold weather.
I will agree that shopping is boring- and frustrating if nothing fits you. Food court prices are often exorbitant and the portions chintzy. Every mall has a chain bookstore, but it's usually much smaller and offering less variety than a free standing Barnes & Nobles or Borders- not to mention no seating!
With the exception of the Broadway Mall, all Long Island malls are very inconvenient from the LIRR- from which you can see Green Acres and Sunrise. Both are very long walks from their nearest respective stations. Roosevelt has decent connecting bus service, although it's sometimes faster to WALK a mile from Mineola or Carle Place, given the horrible traffic congestion buses must navigate to get to it.
South Shore and Smith Haven can only be reached by Suffolk bus, which means you're out of luck on a Sunday. Walt Whitman (usually referred to conversationally as 'the 110 Mall') barely QUALIFIES in my mind as a mall.
White Plains has two malls, but the one closer to MN seems to have fallen on hard times, with lots of vacant storefronts. There's supposed to be a much nicer one about six blocks further away. Stamford Centre is about six blocks from MN, and is far nicer- despite the lack of a food court. Problem is, the only pedestrian access is down a trucking driveway to Filene's Basement's basement.
Newport is the only mall in Jersey I know of that has any rail connection. It requires a very serpentine walk around or through office buildings from PATH to a side entrance of Macy's. But its food court and selection of stores is very good. And it provides a convenient stopover while connecting between PATH and HBLR.
Queens Center, which has been under renovation for its entire 30 years, badly needs a direct entrance to the subway. Now you have to cross 59th Avenue, which is no safer since having been converted to one-way. Herald Center does connect to the subway and PATH, but once you see past the apparent size of it you realize how limited it is.
Kings Plaza is rather limited (no food court) and despite being far from the subway, has good bus connections. Staten Island Mall is the nicest I've seen within city limits, but it's only accessible by two bus routes from the ferry (a very long ride), one route to Bay Ridge (an EXTREMELY long ride) or two routes from SIR (a short ride), which operates on a half-hour headway off peak.
And despite what you may read or hear, Bay Plaza is NOT A MALL! It's a shopping center with a very large parking lot. There are a few smaller centers adjacent to it with separate lots- and security ready with tow trucks to nail anyone who tries to park in one lot and walk to a store in another. A similar 'arrangement' exists amongst all the commercial development along Old Country Road between Roosevelt and the Source.
Cross County isn't a mall either, at least in the strict sense of the word. It's laid out like one, with many pedestrian walkways between the stores. But it's not enclosed from the elements.
The best transit-mall connection I've ever seen in the USA is Philly's Market East Galleria, where you can get the MFL, PATCO and all SEPTA commuter rail lines right in the basement. Last spring, on a DC vacation, we were able to walk from the Blue & Yellow lines directly into the Pentagon Centre Mall.
And if you've been in Toronto or Montreal, blocks and blocks of underground malls connect multiple stations in their subway systems.
I've advised both my dependents that we're steering clear of malls until MLK Day.
Called The Westchester, and located on the site of the old NYW&B terminal.
Mazza Gallery--Friendship Hts Station(Red), Crystal City Underground--Crystal City Station(Blue/Yellow), Fashion Ctr--Pentagon City Station(Blue/Yellow), The Old Post Office--Federal Triangle Station(Orange/Blue), Prince George's Plaza(Green), Wheaton Plaza--Wheaton Station(Red), The Hecht Co--Metro Ctr Station(Red,Blue,Orange), Union Station(Red), Ballston Common--Ballston Station(Orange), Congressional Plaza--Twinbrook Station(Red), Waterside Mall--Waterfront(Green).
I didn't choose shopping centers/malls that required a long walk or bus ride to get to them---i.e. White Flint Mall or Springfield Mall.
Mark
Mazza Gallery--Friendship Hts Station(Red),
Crystal City Underground--Crystal City Station(Blue/Yellow),
Fashion Ctr--Pentagon City Station(Blue/Yellow),
The Old Post Office--Federal Triangle Station(Orange/Blue),
Prince George's Plaza(Green),
Wheaton Plaza--Wheaton Station(Red),
The Hecht Co--Metro Ctr Station(Red,Blue,Orange),
Union Station(Red),
Ballston Common--Ballston Station(Orange),
Congressional Plaza--Twinbrook Station(Red),
Waterside Mall--Waterfront(Green).
I didn't choose shopping centers/malls that required a long walk or bus ride to get to them---i.e. White Flint Mall or Springfield Mall.
My criteria, direct access from station to Mall or shopping center without having to see the light of day. On WMATA you would have to throw out all but three that you list above and add one. I would also throw out The Hecht Company at Metro Center because its a single retailer with direct access.
Mazza Gallery: Friendship Heights (A08) Red line A Route,
Chevy Chase Pavilion: Friendship Heights (A08) Red line A Route,
Union Station (B03) Red line A route,
Crystal City Underground: Crystal City (C09) Blue Yellow lines.
As to the one you forgot by your criteria,
Chevy Chase Pavilion: Friendship Heights (A08) Red line A Route,
The Hecht Company: Friendship Heights (A08) Red line A Route,
The block formally occupied by Woodward And Lothrops north building, I think its Merrott Hotel now: Metro Center (A01, C01) Red, Blue, Orange lines.
The Shops At Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport: National Airport (C10) Blue, Yellow lines
John
Fashion Centre at Pentagon City (C09) also has direct access into the station. I didn't know about the others at Friendship Heights.
Thanks,
mark
I need to get out more often.
Speaking of that, I plan to do a road trip to Washington on Saturday 10 06 2003 when I pickup commuter tickets for the Bay Bridge. I will shoot pictures of the construction on the G Route Blue line extension and the New York Avenue station. Will post link to images in new thread
John
Thanks,
Mark
p.s.---Florida's looking real good right now
Thank you no, I am quite happy right here.
John
Fulton Mall - Downtown Brooklyn
A,C,G to Hoyt-Schermerhorn
2,3,4,5,M,N,R,W to Court St-Boro Hall
M,N,Q,R To DeKalb Avenue (Juniors Cheesecake This Stop)
2,3 To Hoyt Street
2,3,4,5 To Nevins St
Kings Plaza (Flatbush Ave/Ave U) 2 to Brooklyn College-Flatbush Ave (station from Lucy and the Loving Cup Episode) then change to B41 or Q 35 Buses or A To Broad Channel then S to Beach 116th St-Rockaway Park then Q35 Bus
Both cover the same basic facts, but the "juicy" part is the conflict between Bob Diamond and a former subordinate Arthur Melnick. Diamond is head of the Brooklyn Historic Railway Association (BHRA) with long standing plans to run a line from Red Hook into downtown Brooklyn. Arthur Melnick leads the Brooklyn City Streetcar Company, Inc (BCSC) and has proposed the park line, with parts overlapping BHRA's plan, esp. on Atlantic Ave and to Borough Hall. The two seem to dislike each other greatly, which is probably not good news for anyone wanting to see trolleys again in Brooklyn.
Bob Diamond's trolleys are at the Brooklyn Navy Yard, where he is behind in the rent.
I'd include the articles but I don't know of any website.
The Park Slope Paper, 12/1/03
Park Slppe Courier, 12/1/03
The picture opportunities by the Brooklyn & Manhattan bridges are beyond comparison for tourists and residents alike (reminds me of Seattle's waterfront trolley) The downtown Brooklyn folks were looking for a way to get people from the subways to the park without overwhelming Brooklyn Heights streets - well, this is it!
1. Red Hook-Atlantic Av-Borough Hall
2. This one could either be a one way service along the waterfront or down Jay Street or Adams Street. Or it could be a loop service. I think a loop service would be best b/c it would serve more areas, but would involve more construction.
Fulton Ferry Landing-Atlantic Av-Borough Hall-DUMBO-Fulton Ferry Landing
Would a loop service in one direction work, or would it be better in 2 directions?
I think the park trolley would be the ideal start and the Red Hook waterfront could be one of the added destinations, as well as Diamond's goal of reaching Grand Army Plaza.
Maybe in my lifetime....
What ya think bout that?
Start from Red Hook, along the waterfront to Atlantic, then down the Atlantic Ave TUNNEL to exit at Boerum Pl, then north past the Transit Museum & Borough Hall, and eventually east towards Vanderbilt Ave, then to GAP. All of this predated the waterfront park idea, and (unfortunately) would be very expensive and financially unsound without heavy sponsorship/subsidies, something Bob Diamond could never organize.
Who'll put streetcars inside park?
Frank Hicks
Frank Hicks
I think it's sad that none of them folks can or want to work together. it's pretty selfish, actually...
He's put his heart into his trolley line, but after 10 years he doesn't have the financing in place that would make it viable. Every other non-profit knows how important fund raising is.
I wish the two would just find a way to work together and use each other's strengths - AM for organizing, Bob D. for the "vision thing". You can still work together and hate each other right? Just like a marriage!
:0)
Or does the original poster mean public employees instead of civil employees?
Michael
Washington, DC
Conversely, we still have only a few Dual Modes operating to Penn, after what? two years? This doesn't bode well for them.
An interesting question comes to mind: At different times of the day, which would be quicker to get from Penn Station to Woodside, the 1/2/3/9 to the 7, or the next LIRR train out of NYP?
Consider the 5:44 Port Jeff to Penn. It gets in at 7:20. Considering all of the reverse flow and single track issues, the fastest you could get it out to Port Jeff for another rush hour trip inbound would be for probably a 9:00 AM departure -- which would arrive around 10:30 -- way too late for most commuters. So for every two (or really every three -- if you consider reserves and write-offs) you can get one rush hour trip. (On occasion, the DM's have been sent out to Freeport to cover the late morning Freeport to Penn express trips when that equiptment is unavailable).
They've got 4 rush hour Dual modes now. I don't think you'll ever see more than one or two above that. Plus, you'd have to take away an M1/3/7 slot into Penn to fit it in.
I don't understand why there isn't yet off-peak and weekend DM service (other than some holiday specials). My best guess is that it's a reliablity issue.
CG
Why? Why not one locomotive and a control cab, as on the straight diesels?
I have never seen more than one Loco on a Metro North Train, and it is always on the North End, with a Cab Car on the South!
Do they come in with two motors, or do sme trains have only one?
Elias
Arriving from the east on Track 20, M-7's. Doors closed and when leaving, glanced over to Track 16 and a Port Washington train of M-7's were taking on passengers.
Pull into Jamaica on Track 7 and arriving on Track 6 for the connection was a Far Rockaway train of..........M-7's !!
Since I was reading the paper, I didn't notice any trains heading into NYP, but only noticed one set of M-1/3's. This was kind of unusual, but a harbinger of what's to come when the M-1's ranks will be thinned as M-7's become the dominant rolling stock.
Also, I spoke with my LIRR friend who tells me the delivery of M-7's will slow down a bit in January as Metro North's M-7's are due for delivery. I asked if the Metro North's M-7's will differ from the LIRR's. He said there will be some things that will differ. ASC is of them.
Bill "Newkirk"
Chock Full O' Nuts
While I was at Brighton Beach, I noticed some strange train movements. There was a parked Q express on the N/B local track the entire time. At one point an out of service Q local coming from Sheepshead Bay came in on the N/B express track and stayed there for a while. Next train in from Sheepshead Bay was a Q express which came in on the S/B local track. Finally, another Q express from Sheepshead Bay came in on the S/B express track. That train contained my sought after poster. It being pretty cold, I returned on this express to Sheepshead Bay and decided to let them worry about what they were doing.
do they open sundays??
With this being the holiday season, you better believe it. Also check out the holiday model train display.
Bill "Newkirk"
how much is the price this time??
Memoirs of paying $5 per numberplate in the year 2000.
Beat you to the punch? Just hope we don't beat and punch you.
(^_^)
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/nyc-mta1203,0,7313581.story?coll=ny-nynews-headlines
$5-6 per ride mabee more.
If the MTA nyc transit was a privatly run self funding corporation, they would have moved decades ago to upgrade their technology infrastucture to reduce labor costs, run shorter trains when passenger loads warrented etc.
No tooken booths at 95% of the stations. OPTO and ZPTO on some lines. The subway real estate and retail opurtunities would be maximized.
Today's MTA is ineffecient operation using 50 year old technology.
They have tried to reduce some waste such as tooken booths at many stations. Unfortunitly the TWU spread a fear compaign. As I predicted crime has not increased at automated fare controls. The only improvement would to be to install IP based digital camera's linked to central control center to deter swipe sellers. If anyone is interested the swipe seller could not sell enough swiped to make the booth closing unprofitable
If the MTA were a privately held company, they would have cut back weekend service and made Metro North nothing more than a commuter line.
Which is fine, except that a year ago he claimed that the MTA was rolling in money, and did not require the fare increase we already have.
His is right the second time. The MTA (and the City of New York and other agencies) covered over its true financial position until Pataki and the state legislature were re-elected. The idea that the fare increase was not required was nothing but political pandering.
I have a question to ask you and the rest of subtalk. Not to be a ass or anything but, do you think it was political pandering when the MTA decided to keep its finances secluded until Paturkey and the rest of the SOB's in legislation was elected?
What I feel is that they could of came foward with the true financial problems beforehand, and then had more time to fix the budget problem so we wouldn't have to hear this.
Let's discuss citywide service cuts...then people will finally give them the money they need.
We need to begin to adress productivity enhancements and better deployment of resorces. full length trains that are half empty and come so infrequently that anyone who can afford it takes a cab is rediculous.
For all those who say breaking apart 4 car(linked bar) units and putting them back together can't be done should run the number on how much money could be saved and how service could be improved overnight
I think this budget thing is sort of the cornerstone for the deffered maintenance era comeback.
Might as well put off fare increases, borrow money, defer maintenance, and let the system go to hell -- then put through a massive fare increase that is far higher than it would otherwise have had to be. After all, people will make as much noise about a five percent increase as about a 33 percent, 50 percent, or 100 percent increase, the historically typical amounts.
However, based on the opinions of everyone, rather than those who make the most noise, that is a mistake. They should have gradually raised the fare, and kept taxes a little higher, in the boom. We'd have less debt and a less underfunded pension.
I think Subtalk should regard these words as whats to come in the next 10 years.
::Visions a R62/A covered in graffiti::
People have to stand up and object.
No they should have gradually upgraded the system over the past 50 year to make it more effecient and more economical to operate. The system currently operate like it has all the money in the world to spend.
5 steps for the MTA to get it's finaces in order
I) Focus it's capitol plan on projects that finace themselves through reduced operating expences.
EX: 1) platform cameras and subway car pgrades to support in cab flat panel monitors to reduce train crews from two to one.
2) upgrading signaling system to support the above
3) greater use of hybrid buses and articulated buses
4) Upgrading stations in manhattan to ADA standards and eliminating costly duplicate bus routes
5) slow the pace of cosmetic station rehabilitation and focus on bring stations into a good state of functional repair
6) deploy technology to reduce the myrad of layers of usesless outdated management.
- automated bus monitoring and train montoring. updated business practices, eCRM software etc
II. run the apropiate level of service for the aproiate time of day.
- Shorter trains at night and on weekends on some lines with one man crews
- Part the artics in the garage at night and run the most effecient bus.
III. Work to eliminate terrible union work rules such as the one that prohibits bus driver from picking up buses at depots other then their home depot even for voluntary overtime shifts(subway shuttles). Driving buses in from other bouroughs when the local depot has dozens of buses sitting around is a crime.
IV. reduce unneeded staf such as most station agents, ride checkers etc as their jobs are obsolete if the proper technology upgrades are in place
Promote greater retail sales and marketing withing the subway.
Contract out the official soda, chips and other products sold in the subway. Lease out newsstands to one national vendor(7-11, hudson news etc) Ever Mcdonalds you go to sells only coke. WHY? coke pays mcdonalds for the exclusivity deal.
Subway riders are very valuable to marketers. MAke the most of this non fare revenue
II.
1. The way the contract is designed (and yes, it's a hodgepodge, but no, it's not likely to change because it has to be agreed to by BOTH parties, one of which has no reason to want to change it), OPTO doesn't save very much money. Moreover, cutting and adding cars to train consists, while it might save some money on wear-and-tear and inspections, costs money in "switching" crews who have to add/remove the cars. NYCT has found it's just not worth it.
2. This is really a BusTalk issue, but I'll say that if a depot is served entirely by articulated buses during the day (a situation that hasn't happened yet, but it might somewhere along the line) it doesn't make sense to keep a second fleet of standard-size buses (with different parts requirements) around to run at night. Besides, there aren't very many buses running overnight, so there isn't much money to be saved there anyway.
III.
I see the point, but again, these are changes that have to be proposed by management (because there's no way the Union would) and agreed to by the Union. Does anyone here REALLY see that happening?
IV.
1. Automatic passenger counters are available. I've yet to hear of one that works well enough to use, and I don't know how well they work as collectors of running time data, which is also a necessary function that Traffic Checkers perform. As for Station Agents, NYCT has begun reducing their numbers.
2. The only problems I can see involve clutter and litter. Those are reasons behind the removal of many newsstands and other concessions during the 1980s and the subsequent redesign of many newsstands and concessions.
3. Why not? I wonder what MTA Real Estate & Concessions would have to say about this idea.
David
There have been substantial productivity gains (as an economist, not a politician, would define them -- ie. not wage and benefit cuts) in some areas, such as Car Equipment and MOW. These departments have reduced their employment by close to 1.5 percent per year compounded over the period. And they aren't doing the same work as in 1986, they are doing MORE work, based on MDBF, track condition, etc. Thus, their productivity gains are much higher than that.
Other departments have done less well in reducing staff, and overall NYCT employment is projected to be at about the same level in 2007 as in 1986. Of course, the number of bus trips and train trips is probably much higher, and this would have to be adjusted for.
When you are talking about front line personnel, it is hard to distinguish a productivity gain from a service increase or reduction. Station agents in the booths don't have to sell as many rides as they used to, thanks to the machines. Is that a productivity gain to increased quality, because the agents are now free to give more customer service and security? Or a wasted investment, because they are sitting there with nothing to do? Same thing with conductors. If both quality and cost go down, it isn't a productivity gain. You need the SAME work with less people, or MORE work with the same people. Note the part time booth closing issue for the public's perception. I don't agree with it, but there it is.
True, but it is easier in transit than in some service industries. You have the number of trains or buses in service, their reliability, etc.
"3. See 1. and 2., though there isn't enough experience yet with hybrid buses to determine whether they'll save money"
That is not true. The MTA's own pilot study using ORION VI showed in overall reduction of cost of operation and maintance. The study went on to say that improvements in staff training and a mass produced vs prototype product should yeild a further reduction in costs.
An excerpt from the article that was online back in august in an industry trade jurnal but unfortunitly i do not have the URL. The article title was "lessons learned NYCT hybrid electric fleet"
"Dana Lowell is the assistant chief maintenance officer, research and development, at New York City Transit. He recently spoke at APTA's Bus and Paratransit conference, detailing the status and testing results of a fleet of hybrid diesel-electric buses currently in operation.
Fuel economy
One of the reasons NYCT wanted to test the hybrids is that they offer both emissions reductions and fuel economy, a combination not available with CNG buses. The hybrid buses averaged 2.65 mpg, which was 10 percent higher than the test group of diesel buses, though the results for the hybrids showed significant seasonal shifts in fuel economy. During the summer months, fuel economy varied only slightly to comparable diesels, but fuel economy in the winter was 16 percent higher for the hybrid buses.
The results were attributed to two factors. First being the air conditioning, which can take between 15 and 20 percent of the total energy used on the bus in the summertime.
Second was the possible thermal limitations of the batteries. The Orion buses use regenerative braking, which captures the bus' own kinetic energy to help power the batteries. However, as the batteries heat up, power is not as easily distributed to and from the batteries. Also, BAE Systems, which designed the HybriDrive system used in the buses, limited how much energy could be put back into the batteries as they heated up to help the system recover and cool the batteries. BAE has addressed this situation with the latest Orion VII hybrid design, and early testing by NYCT has already shown a better fuel economy is being achieved, though some seasonal performance differences, at least to a lesser degree, have not yet been ruled out.
During the evaluation period, the price of NYCT's low-sulfur diesel fuel averaged $1.03 per gallon. The Orion V diesel buses had a fuel cost of $0.474 per mile and the NovaBUS RTS diesel buses averaged $0.426 per mile. The older hybrid-electric group averaged $0.390 per mile, while the newer group averaged $0.387.
Maintenance and availability
Maintenance costs for the hybrids were tested against the diesel group of NovaBUS vehicles from the same Manhattanville depot and recorded higher maintenance costs and lower system availability overall. Two main factors were associated with this.
First, because the buses were a pre-production fleet, there was some trouble in the beginning with documenting and identifying parts. Once the faulty part was identified, there was no spare parts inventory, so repairs were delayed as parts were sent in from the manufacturer.
NYCT has also made an increasing effort to train its mechanics and getting them more involved. Of the 246 buses at the Manhattanville depot, 236 were manufactured by NovaBUS, which caused an unfamiliarity in the system among the mechanics on the Orion hybrids and increased the labor hours spent troubleshooting problems.
Both the newness of the technology and the learning curve of the mechanics resulted in lower reliability and availability of the buses. NYCT has a standard availability of its fleet of 85 percent with a 15 percent spare factor. At times the hybrids approached that level, but did not match the reliability of the diesels. However, based on the increasing experience of the mechanics with the system and Orion's improvements in the next generation Orion VII, there is increasing confidence at NYCT that the hybrids will approach that of the diesel buses."
At night and on weekends NYC should attempt to use these buses as much as possible to reduce operating costs. This of course would mean the end to a line belongs to one depot and a switch to the philosophy.
At the moment (December 6, 2003), NYCT has ELEVEN hybrid buses. There is an order for well over a hundred more hybrid buses but NONE are in yet (Orion hasn't finished delivering the Orion VII CNGs). According to the article, maintenance costs on the test buses were HIGHER than on the standard RTS buses and bus availability was LOWER on the test buses. The only savings was in fuel. Is the savings in fuel going to outweigh the additional maintenance cost? Maybe with a larger order and greater familiarity with the equipment the maintenance cost will go down as NYCT predicts, but all of this remains to be seen. (And I'm a fan of hybrid technology -- it isn't that I'm a Luddite.)
Please tell me how eleven buses are supposed to cover all overnight service that NYCT operates, even allowing for what I said in my previous posting about there not being much service overnight. Besides, allowing any bus to operate on any route on the weekends would cost more money, as someone (whether a Shifter, a Maintainer, or the Operator assigned to a given run) has to move the bus between the "foreign" depot and the route, which would usually be a longer distance than between the "home" depot and the route. For instance, on the B3 the route begins right outside Ulmer Park Depot, and that's where the route is assigned -- running the route out of, say, Fresh Pond Depot, because (say) that's where the hybrid buses are, would cost well over an hour of additional vehicle time in each direction to get the bus to and from Fresh Pond, plus whatever the pay hours end up costing (could be an hour plus, could be less, could be more, depending on the individual run).
David
"Bus tracking is something NYCT's extremely interested in, but the last contract didn't work out (the system would spot buses in the East River). "
The MTA was ahead of the curve of what the technology could do in the early 1990'. Recent improvements in the last 10 years have overcome many of the problems and at a much lower cost. Wireless technologies have come a long way. The previous technology relied on GPS satalites only. New technologies can combine multiple standard protocals to better track buses. technologies such as GPS, 802.11 b, g, 3 g wireless technologies can be seemlessly used to track, monitor and dispatch buses.
"II.
OPTO doesn't save very much money. Moreover, cutting and adding cars to train consists, while it might save some money on wear-and-tear and inspections, costs money in "switching" crews who have to add/remove the cars. NYCT has found it's just not worth it"
A penny saved is a penny earned. Improved proccesses can overcome most of these hurdles. Trains that are linked up in 4 and 5 car units could be designed to separate in terminal with a series of steps performed by the train crew. The two half length trains could not depart from tje terminal with a new crew, one person on each train.
In the past the cars were all singles and the proceeses used made OPTO not worth it.
"This is really a BusTalk issue, but I'll say that if a depot is served entirely by articulated buses during the day (a situation that hasn't happened yet, but it might somewhere along the line) it doesn't make sense to keep a second fleet of standard-size buses (with different parts requirements) around to run at night. Besides, there aren't very many buses running overnight, so there isn't much money to be saved there anyway"
Go stand on the corner of 23rd st at 3 am. You will see articulated buses running empty back and forth. The depots these buses come out of have plenty of 40ft buses sitting idle at that time of night. In a system the size of NYCT we are taliking millions of dollars in savings. The 40ft buses get better gas millage
"1. Automatic passenger counters are available. I've yet to hear of one that works well enough to use, and I don't know how well they work as collectors of running time data, which is also a necessary function that Traffic Checkers perform. As for Station Agents, NYCT has begun reducing their numbers."
Running times on subways would be handles by the upgraded signaling system and CBTC. We all know the timetables for it's deployment
On the bus side, the bus monitoring and dispatching system would handle runing time issues
As for passenger counting. Traffic checkers are not very accurate for this. For one in order to have very accuare data you need to have a large sample of days and times then the current system allows. Monhts not weeks of data are needed
Metrocard data if combined and analysted with load sensors on buses and trains would give you a more accurate picture of ridership levels over the course of the year. All the new buses have computer subsystems that are capable of collecting such data plus the new rail cars have them as well.
"
2. The only problems I can see involve clutter and litter. Those are reasons behind the removal of many newsstands and other concessions during the 1980s and the subsequent redesign of many newsstands and concessions.
3. Why not? I wonder what MTA Real Estate & Concessions would have to say about this idea.
David"
Of course many stations with tight platforms and fare controls can not support retail. Many can. The MTA should go one step further and concider how they can incorportate more retail when they are embarking on a station renovation. Spaces could be carved out for vending and ATM machines on platforms along the broadway line for instance
As the MTA shuts down many tooken booths space becomes available at many fare controls. Litter is definitly an issues but people are bringing food and beverages aboard trains anyway from the outside and illegal vendors are selling on platforms especially in the summer time. A unitified contract would bring in alot more money then the small vendors.
When all of the systems required to support automatic passenger counting and running time tracking are in place, I'm all for testing to see whether Traffic Checkers can be replaced. It's a years-long process, though, that could be speeded only so much if at all (there's a finite pile of money and besides there are just so many parts of the transit system that can be worked on at the same time without affecting rush hour service).
I think the concession ideas have merit, and I encourage "voiceofreason" to take them up with the MTA.
David
That's happening already. Watch what's going to happen at Roosevelt/74th.
No, 100th Street Depot (M101/M102/M103) is ALL articulated. It has no standard buses, and having a few on hand just for overnight service (which has to stay "out there" for the morning rush anyway) would be a complete waste.
The 2 and 4 car trains of the 70's was due to defered maintance.
Most A division train sets are linked in 5 car sets and many b division trains are linked in 4 car sets
Running the apropiate level of service when needed saves money and allows that money to be spent on other area's.
The MTA's current policies drive up operating costs which comes out of our pocket's in terms of fares and tax dollars. The straphanges only platform is to reduce the fare and raise state funding
What is state funding? out tax dolars.
The current 5 year capitol plan puts too much money into cosmetic improvements and not enough money into functional improvements that will reduce the cost of operating the system. You would not borrow money over your head to put down marble floors in you house, but you would to fix a leaking roof or to add another apartment to rent
What do you propose?
Running half-length trains at double the frequency will require twice the number of crew. Crew are extremely expensive--there's no cost savings to be had here.
In addtion to saving money the improved service would attract more riders.
Why? Many people avoid the subways at nigh and on weekend due to the long wait times and the inconvient transfers. Many friends of mine who live in manhattan take the subways all over the place during the week all day but cab it on the weekends due to the long waits.
Most lines even the broadway local and express could use 4 car more frequent service for most parts of the day on the weekend.
One 11 car train under OPTO: one person.
Two 5 car trains running under OPTO: two people.
2 > 1.
In order to slightly improve the MTA's financial image:
1. Buy fewer cars. The MTA seems to be buying hundreds of new cars, spending billions of dollars on rail cars when the need to replace older fleets is questionable. Take this new R160 order. I hear that it would replace everything that still doesn't have a doorbell on the B division, and the R44's. I say that the R32's are in better shape than any of the other cars built between 1964 and 1974, so they should be around until at least the mid-2020's, and leave them on the lines they're running on, too. Don't send them to an "Old car dumping ground," which, with the exception of the R143's, is what the BMT Eastern Division has been for the past few decades, it also includes any line that runs an 8-car train. I'm not completely anti-new. I'm not saying that New York City doesn't need new cars, I'm just saying that NYC doesn't need so many new cars.
This should save them hundreds of millions of dollars.
Then, I don't know how much money is wasted on underworked, overpaid "executives," but I think a few "higher-ups" should get pay cuts. They can complain until the cows come home, but who's more important, the average rider, or some big fat cat who wipes his you-know-what with those new $20 bills?
Just my 2.
Cutting 100 managers making $100,000 a year saves only $10 million a year, though, a drop in the bucket. I support doing something like that, but realize that the impact is minimal.
Deferring the R160 order might make sense. Write MTA and tell 'em.
Ron, this is your non-expert opinion at work again. Can you say Federal Dollars?
AEM7
Yeah, but then the rank and file stopped showing up to work, or showing up sober, and service collapsed. So they had to hire all these superviors to look over their shoulders.
In the private sector, they eliminated layers of management by making line workers responsible for making sure their own work gets done. If it doesn't, the workers are fired. This led to a huge reduction in middle management in the 1980s and early 1990s. Could it work here? Let's just say it would require a culture change.
The way this was implimented was that the business began to have a better idea of what was going on through use of technology tools that allowed upper layers of management to better assess who is doing his job and who is not.
Up and down the line the MTA needs to impliment such systems at every level not just on the operations side
In any case, why have their been no arrests of these vandals? A few kids with their names and faces in the newspaper would go a very long way. I hope we are not going back to the '80's when nobody gave a crap.
Bill "Newkirk"
>:(
P.S.: I just corrected the title spelling.
You can spread a strawberry glaze on the end of a flashlight or baton...
Landing men on the moon and replacing eyeglasses with laser surgery are solutions to technical problems. Vandalism of public property, and the lack of civic pride that helps it to flourish, are problems of law enforcement, and, ultimately, of human evil and sinfulness, and are much more difficult to solve.
I speak with experience. I am undergoing chemotherapy for cancer in the lymph nodes now. Gotta be careful about being in public!!!
Apparently you should spend more time wondering that. We have far fewer diseases now that any time in history and far less shit in the street.
Urine is normally sterile, and does not carry these things, and most of these things cannot survive very long in an open environment.
OK so it grosses you out, big deal.
No there are no security cameras in all of the corners. Given some of the creatures that I have seen in the subways, they would probably not know the difference if they pissed their pants.
As long as the subway is going to be a safe (and somewhat warm) haven for the homeless, they will have to do their deeds where ever they might.
Elias
This page has the chemistry as well as some fascinating history. I would recommend the whole site for interesting reading.
.....
Well, actually, the extreme ends of EVERY platform, including elevated ones, appear to be "watering holes", or pits are more like it.
Some people don't have a pot to pee in.
When I worked for the Franciscians at 31st Street as the building supt. (my last job in NYC before moving to North Dakota) the Aluminium doors to the lower church were being rotted out by urine, probably from people attracted to the bread line.
I got an estimate for replacing the four doors with staineless steel doors, the price came in at $9,000 the same abount that my dad spent for his first house on Long Island in 1950. This does not look like a big figure now, but it was big enough back in 1982.
Elias
For example, in the northeast Amtrak used trains from NJTransit, MARC, and SEPTA.
They have nothing but Bombardier multi-level ("Lozenge" or "Sausage") cars. No single-level equipment.
Horizon cars are single-level Bombardier-built coaches, smooth sides, vestibules at both ends. Their design can be ultimately traced back to Pullman-Standard equipment built for the LIRR in 1953, 1955, 1956 -- believe it or not. Bombardier bought the designs from P-S years ago.
The Amtrak Horizon cars are numbered in the 50000 series. They are similar to much of the loco-hauled commuter equipment on NJ Transit, Boston's MBTA, and Montreal's AMT.
Some of the Horizon cars were also used as extra/backup trains on the Pacific Surfliner route during the holiday weekend...with P32-8BWH's (normally used as yard switchers in LA) for motive power!!!!!
October 27th, 2004
First Subway Ride Reenactment
Recreation of the first ride on the NYC Subway system from City Hall Station in Lower Manhattan by Mayor McClellan and other New York notables. Distinguished guests would include Governor Pataki and Mayor Bloomberg.
Historic Fleet/Nostalgia Train Excursions
Plans to run the historic fleet throughout four boroughs will showcase examples of transit equipment from each major production era in the last century on October 27.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
I don't know at what point the "no wooden cars in subway passenger service, ever" rule was adopted.
#3 West End Jeff
The re-creation of the opening day ceremony will be by invitation only.
Disappointing, yes but unfortunately a necessity.
Its a non-thinking mindset, starting with the bunker mentality of Giuliani that has propagated such myths.
Trains pass through the station every day. A small device attached, say, under a seat, or in between cars (yes, tell me that TOs and CRs are going to systematically inspect every car, with eagle eyes looking for an exta lump when they have 90 seconds to clear the station is going to happen) could cause a lot of mayhem.
In the war on terror, the terrorists win. We let em every time.
Wild horses couldn't drag me away
Wild, wild horses we'll ride them someday.
You don't know the half of it. It would be VERY hard to get R-36WF cars to the Market-Frankford El. And then good luck trying to run them there with the proprietary 3rd rail. :)
That type of third rail is called Wilgis-Sprague Third Rail. Originally developed for the New York Central electrification of 1906,
it was used on the orginal Market Elevated in Philadelphia, also of 1906 vintage.
It's also used on the Docklands light rail in London. Why, I don't know.
It's advantages are that since the shoe rides on the bottom of the rail, not the top, snow and ice are not as big a problem as with regular third rail.
This sounds terrific, but how are they going to do it? Wouldn't these trains run slower, therefore slowing the regular trains down? Also, I wonder what kind of security would be on the train, God forbid vandals try to strike nostalgic cars. -Nick
David
Koi
Chuck Greene
Then they will probably give them to you in person on the train. But if you are really scared, call the phone number that is on the order form and also in our very own upcoming events section.
FOX!
L.A. maybe says Newkirk Plaza David.
Sallam, did you stop the film crew from entering the LA Metro station? Just kidding, I think the scenes were filmed during the LA transit strike as a theory that we didn't see as much as we train buffs like to see.
Sorry about that. And thanks Brian for your help.
WELCOME BACK TRAIN DUDE
IIRC, there are only 2 R-40M/R-42 sets assigned to the L, so where the heck did the third one come from???
Robert
The 3 car rule would be a problem too!
Did they have the 3 car rule while any Standards were still in service? I thought that rule goes way back. I guess it just coulden't be applied to the Standards.
Hey, it worked.
I switched on my pop-up ad suppressor to take care of that.
Anybody else notice this?
Secondly, I highly doubt David P. would put ads on SubTalk, at least without prior notice. You probably have some gator-type ad serving program embedded in your computer.
-Harry
Have you tried the free program Adaware to get rid of whatever spyware is plaguing you?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
But it is being exploted by spammers.
Look for "Messenger" in the service list, double-click on it. Under the "General Tab" set "Service Status" to "Stop" if it's running, then choose "Disabled" from the "Startup type" pulldown.
I know you know, Hank, but others might like to know how to get rid of this pest.
Administrative Tools is not in System, it's right in Control Panel. If you have the category based Control Panel, it's under Performance and Maintenance (the one with the pie chart icon).
But otherwise, that would work.
I suggest installing a program to search and remove spyware. My personal favorite is Spybot Search and Destroy which you can download at http://www.safer-networking.org/ or http://security.kolla.de
Once you install it make sure you download the updates and then run a scan. I bet you will be surprised what you find.
Another poster suggested that you disable "instant messenger", however this is not 100% correct. Windows XP/2000 has a built in messenging service; its purpose was to be for system admins to send messages to users on a network (i.e., the mail server is down, etc). This has been exploited so that spammers can use the messenging service to randomly send popups to computers. From what you described this is not the kind of popup you are receiving, so disabling windows messenger probably won't help your situation. Also, windows messenger is not the same as MSN messenger.
I need to disable instant messenger, too. I don't need the spam coming in that way...
I hope your Thanksgiving was good...
I thought your schedule was too busy for Subtalk. You should just subscribe to Jersey Mike's post-counting service. I think it's free...for now..:0)
Transit Authorities are allllll the same....
First Sea Beach Fred calls the two of us the same entity and now this.
Are you charging Jersey Mike a royalty every time he reports posting numbers?
But maybe I should.
Eh! That pop-up ad was a wake up call for Ron.
Same ad each time - the lady in the bikini selling Viagra.
I believe Dr. Z deals with facial cosmetic procedures.
Dr. Uranus may have inherited Dr. Tusch's practice.
What part of the 3rd Avenue El would a train pull in on the right side of an island platform of a 4-track structure, with 1 track across the platform and 2 above the platform, which turn off to the right and stub end shortly after - and the 2 tracks on the lower level turn sharply to the left.
Also - where the heck would you be on the rightmost of 3 tracks, where the middle track just ends abruptly, without bumping block - and then there is platform?
One more - where is there a 4-track open cut with wierd-looking commuter rail cars that passes under it? What railroad was this? Metro-North? NYW&B?
No idea about the second one.
Last one is just north of Fordham Road, where the El crossed today's Metro North Harlem-New Haven Line (formerly NY Central and New Haven RRs).
Bergen cutoff?
Filmed on location inside, outside and on the side (sorry, couldn't get on top).
http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Video/Index.html
About a crewman in the pilothouse as the ferry Andrew Barberi crashed into a maintenance pier.
Michael
Washington, DC
CG
The kicker to the story is that this department is supervised by the Commissioner of the DOT - Iris Weishal a/k/a Mrs Charles Schumer !
Well then he deserved the beating.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29790-2003Dec2.html
apparently the Herndon City Council is responsible for effectively killing the proposed project. a quote: "Now the project is dead, and it may be 25 years until we see rail to Dulles."
Actually, if Bush would push for more funding for this project, the Herndon City Council would not be a factor. Plenty of excess highway funding – time to divert it for once.
Bummer. Back to the drawing board. It also means that Reagan Airport remains the easiest to reach and use.
Meanwhile, the Blue Line Extension and the New York Av station should be less than a year away from opening.
Part of the reason MBTA got money to expand its system is that Boston is the capitol of Massachusetts. MBTA rail is in the faces of legislators and staff every day.
If NYC were the capitol city of New York State, the New York City subway would have gotten more $$$ for expansion over the years...
WMATA needs billions of dollars to build the Dulles Line-billions that other subways are in need of also- they need to get in line like every other transit system if they want federal dollars.
Boston got federal funding because at the time it was given, the Congressman from Boston was also the House Speaker (Tip O'Neill).
AEM7
Even NYC had to rethink some of its core services. Recall that, in the 1960s, express tracks were added to the IND 6th Av line.
Although there is a school of thought that people will always hold doors, no matter how frequently you run the train, so the maximum practical capacity on a two-track line would always be around 25 tph, unless you had some way to restrain people physically from boarding when it is time for the train to leave. Platform doors is one way of achieving this (since it is a lot harder to hold a platform door than a train door, as there is no risk of dragging, a platform door could afford to be a lot more aggressive).
AEM7
Do/Did they do what they were supposed to do?
I expect to see all 23 miles of this line to be built.
John
Regards,
Jimmy
-One post says the Promo list is thrown out, another says it stands.
-One post says O/C people will be called in the spring or summer, the other says not for 3 years.
-One post says lots of T/O's are retiring, another says this isn't true.
I respect and appreciate everyone's contributions here, but can those who took the T/O exam really get reliable information here on subtalk?
Also, two questions I have:
How many T/O's are retiring soon?
Apparently many people did well on the promo exam...but how many people actually took it, vs. the O/C exam?
Again, it is nice to get information on here. But I do wonder sometimes what is fact vs. rumor sometimes. -Nick
The test was easy but so was the last one and that did not get thrown out.
These lists take time so even with the answer key expect a wait.
As for T/O retiring most would like ot BUT they do not have the time or age. Most of the stuff about T/O retiring involves assuming that Pataki will sign the 20/50 retirement plan (fat chance). There really are not that many people that have the time and age right now. They hired a ton of people in 1982-1984 and not all of them will be 55 when they get their 25 years in so expect little movement.
The other source of T/O openings were rumors that the Manny B reopening will create jobs well as I have been saying it would not and there was a net loss of 24 road jobs from the current pick to the next and some cuts in work train jobs too.
Except for accidents and service delays you will find a low accuracy on Subtalk. In time you will find who gives useful info in what areas and make your own determinations. When you get the job you will see that what made sense from the outside no longer does on the inside. Several people here lost their attitudes about bad MTA employees when they got inside and saw that you often get forced to make things work when they shouldn't.
If you do get in, send me an email, I am a shop steward and can get you some valuable information that will help you when you are road extra.
Good luck
And then you'll lose your job. You may want to reconsider breaking loose the hell. Or don't take a job with the MTA.
If a C/R had taken the 2000 Open Competitive test for T/O and been hired, he/she would have needed to take a leave of absence from their current title. During their probationary year, if they decided they didn't like the job OR if something happened that would cause their firing, they would be able to return to their prior title. If something happened after that one year, they would effectively have no prior title to fall back to and would bee out of a job.
Now many believe that the promo list will be called first in addition to their getting extra points for prior service.
Ona promotional test in this title, your test score is 85% of your total score. The other 15% comes from seniority (and I don't remember the scale used), so: if two C/Rs both take the promotional test for T/O and both have a RAW score of 100 (everything correct), they start out with an 85. Now come the points for seniority - C/R A has one year in title and gets 4 points, C/R B has four years in title and gets 10 points. Even though their RAW scores were the same, their FINAL scores will be 89 and 95.
Now we look at the other possibility: same two C/Rs getting the same seniority points but scoring differently on the exam. C/R A gets a 90 on the exam, plus 4 points for a FINAL of 94, while C/R B gets an 83 on the exam plus 10 points for a FINAL of 93. C/R A, even though junior by two years, has outscored C/R B and gets a place on the list.
Where is the DCAS or NYCT announcement of this policy?
It is (was) on the Notice of Announcement.
If a promo gets a 99 and an O/C gets a 100 the O/C is called first. Thats the way NYCT wants it.
Civil Service Laws require the promotional list to be used first if both lists are established from the same test, no matter what Transit wants. Transit shot themselves in the foot when they gave the promotional test in 1998, so they could get the O/C T/O test; before they try to mess with the system again, they might actually think twice about it.
After that, for another twelve months, service will resume to North Station, using the new underground station. Busing will continue to Science Park and Lechmere. Then sometime in mid-2005, full service will resume to Lechmere using the new ramp up from North Station under to the existing elevated just south of the Charles River.
AEM7
How do you replace the Green Line with heavy rail. In the south and west direction, the trolleys exit the tunnels are run on the street. Are you going to convert all of that to subway (isolate ROWs, sink them into trenches, replace intersection crossings with overpasses, build new high-level stations, purchase new subway cars, install new signalling)?
Connect the D branch of the Green Line to a heavy rail downtown tunnel. Build a major transfer point at Kenmore Sq. Remove the E branch (or stub-end it at Prudential and provide a walk-way transfer to Copley).
It's actually easier than you think. Major works would be required in a number of places, but it's cheaper than the cost of continued overcrowding.
AEM7
Most stations on the downtown portion of the Green Line (Kenmore to Park) are actually long enough to allow double-berthing of two-car trains (i.e. 4 car lengths in total). So the platform length is somewheres around 300 ft, or 3 subway-car lengths. The real problem is some of the curvatures in the tunnel is too curvy for either platforming by heavy rail vehicles or for even operating long cars. Those are likely to be the major expense of doing up the Green Line for heavy rail service.
Then there is the question of what you do while construction is taking place. Theoretically, you could operate the existing trolleys while you use posessions to straighten out curves, and then you could introduce a heavy rail vehicle with trolley poles that would platform at low level platforms (which would not be ADA compliant, by the way) as an interim measure while you raised the platforms one at a time.
AEM7
AEM7
It would releieve overcrowding on the Green Line between GC and Kenmore. There could also be a Blue-Red connection if a stop could be built at Park Street to connect to the Red Line and there would be a station right at the front steps of the State House.
Would you keep the green line heavy rail in the above ground sections, like the B, C, and D branches? If your not planning on making tunnels under Beacon and Comm ave, how would you make it efficient to work with the traffic? -Nick
Better start singing: Noel
Yakko: What are you doing, Wakko?
Wakko: I'm writing a letter a Santa, telling him what I want
for Christmas.
Yakko: Wait a minute -- hold the phone! That's not how you
spell `Santa'.
Wakko: It isn't?
Yakko: No; you've got it all wrong.
Wakko: Well, how do you spell it, then?
Yakko: To spell Santa's name
Is easy to do
You write S, A, N, T
And another A, too.
But no L, no L
Santa's name has no L
And he won't be too pleased
If you don't learn to spell.
Wakko: Jack and Jill went up the hill
To fetch water from a well
But when neither one could find it
Jill started to yell.
Dot : No well, no well
Can't believe there's no well!
We walked all the way here
And I'm mad, can't you tell.
Yakko: Captain Ahab took his crew
His harpoon and set sail
And he called out to ships
Ahab : Have you seen the white whale?
Crew : No whale, no whale
No, we ain't seen no whale
Man 1: Saw a couple of dolphins
Man 2: And a big yellowtail.
YW+D : If you've listened to this tune
Then you probably can tell
That you've heard it before
It's a song you know well.
Know well, know well
It's a song you know well
And we've ruined it completely
So we all say, "Oh well."
Oh well, oh well
We'll just say, "Fare thee well"
Merry Christmas to you
And a joyous Nol.
Take as many exams as you can, and thanks Ron!
Who would really use that transfer, as there's a better cross-platform one to A for people heading Downtown.
Arti
If you are at Metro Av, the G is useless as you have to transfer onto the L first.
#3 West End Jeff
www.forgotten-ny.com
The work couldn't be accomplished during the recent bus and rail strike because the MTA's own rail-grinding machine needs $1.3 million in repairs.
Rail grinding is really a preventative maintenance program for rails.
AEM7
On a very macro level, that is true. However, on a micro level, because the track isn't always perfectly straight or perfectly gauged, the railcar tend to snake from side to side seeking the path of least resistance (due to wear patterns in the rail, oscillation induced by switchwork or inperfect railwork, and out-of-round wheels).
The outside rail's inside aspect
"The gauge-corner of the rail"
contacts the railcar wheel's flange and forces the railcar to follow the curve.
Sort of. Actually the railcar starts off by oscillating off-center slightly towards the outside of the curve (i.e. flange into the gauge corner). Ideally, before the flange contacts the gauge corner, the contact point between the tread and the railhead (top of the rail)on the outside rail has shifted in such a way that a taller portion of the tread (closer to the flange) is contacting the gauge side of the railhead (closest to the flange). The opposite effect occurs on the inside rail, where the contact point is shifted away from the flange, allowing a narrower portion of the flange to contact the railhead. The effective difference in the diameter of the wheel at the contact points now guides the wheelset around the curve without the flange ever coming into contact with the gauge face of the rail.
Therefore, the points of friction include the top of the rail against the wheel itself as it is rolling, and the wheel flange to curved rail.
Unfortunately, this often happens, due to a combination of overspeed, badly maintained rail profiles, and badly maintained wheel profiles, and perhaps badly designed curves or reverse curvature where this sort of thing is bound to happen.
But that wasn't really the answer I was looking for. I was trying to point out that for a curved section of track to be perfectly tuned to allow no contact between the rail and the wheel, this can be done through cant (banking, or elevation), but this only works at a constant "optimal" speed for a vehicle of constant weight and wheel diameter. I guess if you made railcars out of diamond and put the entire track in air conditioned environment with subgrade that is balanced on a gyroscopic table, you might just be able to tune it...
One could, I suppose, "tune" the system to some degree by standardizing railcar design on that system (all cars have same weight, same ground pressure, same wheel design). Miami Metrorail's cars are all from one manufacturer and and Atlanta's MARTA cars are from one manufacturer; Washington Metrorail does that to some degree. New York is a mess by comparison.
I presume you mean wheel flange! Otherwise, we have levitation!
There are some good diagrams and explanations on this page in trainweb. Credit is due to Jersey Mike who first pointed me in the direction of this repository of railway technical information.
http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/whlbog.html
"oooh, it's a big nasty thing that makes a lot of sparks
and noise so that little lip thingy won't rub the other
thing anymore"
Sounds like they are instituting a rail grinding program to
provide gauge corner relief. Anyone out there familiar with
the line? Are these guarded curves?
How was the conductor able to see what he was doing with the rollsigns?
There were numeric codes for each available route. One set the code, pushed a button, and the train did the rest. Usually 100% successful, especially in the early days of these cars. Later on, one or two might not cycle and would have to be changed manually; but it sure beat changing all sixteen signs by hand.
WOW. I never knew such a thing existed!
Why don't the R-62s/68s have this feature?
Also there's a chance it didn't work out very well when some signs went just a little bit out of place on the preGOH 44s and 46s.
WOW. I never knew such a thing existed!
Why don't the R-62s/68s have this feature?
Photos include: U34CH; RL-1; FP7; B36-7; SW1200 (plus the one that became a BL-15); Geeps and FA-1 #615 (former LIRR Power Pack).
In a seperate section is a shot of overhauled PCC #2320.
Dan
Sharing IS Caring, bub. LOL
There were plenty of RedBird number plates on hand.
It isn't the R17 one (a/k/a Redbird in Air). It is the Whale version (the 2nd one in the series of 3 Art cards so far).
One thing to note - they want $19.95 for the item.
Someone stole the side and bulkhead destination sign boxes, as well as the taillight lenses.
The car does not have obligatory tuna stains........... yet.
I knew this teaser was more difficult than it looks.
TICK TOCK, clock is ticking, answer at 5 PM, gotta run to the hearing soon.
THE EXPRESS AND LOCAL MARKER LIGHTS ARE IN THE WRONG PLACES (express on the right side of the car, local on the left).
Huh?
The R-17 was delivered in Tuscan Red (which is represented in the poster) and ended its career in Redbird red.
It sold out; they aren't reordering.
Colonial : Moffat or Rockaway Ave and Bway (Chauncey St station)
RKO Bushwick (now under renovation), Loews Gates : Southwest side of Broadway near Gates Avenue station
Casino Theater : Bway and Dekalb Ave (Kosciuszko St. station)
Decatur Theater : Decatur and Bway (between Halsey and Chauncey St. stations : probably now demolished.
RKO Madison Theater (now a Liberty Dept. Store) Myrtle Avenue at Woodbine St. Ridgewood. You can see the west side of it from the Wyckoff Avenue platform on the M line. Graffiti is now much more prominent than the original "RKO Madison Theatre" lettering. You can see the progression of this in the BMT Myrtle Wyckoff Avenue photos on this site.
Another bldg, visible from Wyckoff Avenue platform, on northeast side of Wyckoff between Gates and Palmetto, used to be the Parthenon Theater.
RKO Bushwick (now under renovation),
The RKO Bushwick, an ornate theater sat in shambles for many years (decades?) at the Gates Ave station. Fires and water damage had done it's toll. Thankfully the theater looks great on the exterior as it is being completely refurbished. Unfortunately years of neglect have made the interior had to be gutted, but I think they have made apartments out of it. Here's a photo from April in a "before" shot, and an "after" shot in July. Currently it is even more progressed:
Loews Gates : Southwest side of Broadway near Gates Avenue station
Visable in this photo at Gates Ave:
Casino Theater : Bway and Dekalb Ave (Kosciuszko St. station)
I think this may be the big white building on the right visable in this photo. In the 70's and 80's this building was in total shambles, and painted red and white. I used to call it the "Candy-stripe building". It has also been refurbished into apartments:
RKO Madison Theater (now a Liberty Dept. Store) Myrtle Avenue at Woodbine St. Ridgewood. You can see the west side of it from the Wyckoff Avenue platform on the M line. Graffiti is now much more prominent than the original "RKO Madison Theatre" lettering. You can see the progression of this in the BMT Myrtle Wyckoff Avenue photos on this site.
The "Madison Theatre" painted sign is still fairly visable from Wyckoff, though getting less by the year. The theatre was originally a Vaudville theatre and very ornate inside. It was converted for movies, and survived into the 70's. In the late 70's or early 80's the Madison burned. After a theater it was a Consumers and an Odd-Lot. As Consumers, you could still make out the balcony and the layout of the theater. Click on the thumbnail below and look to the right of the tower for the remains of the "Madison Theatre" sign.
Another bldg, visible from Wyckoff Avenue platform, on northeast side of Wyckoff between Gates and Palmetto, used to be the Parthenon Theater.
Thank you for that! I always wondered about that building "at the Wyckoff Curve" (visable in the photo below, on the left). I always thought it was a theater, but never knew what, and wasn't sure. Do you know when it closed?
Commodore
I don't know when the Parthenon stopped showing movies. It was sometime between 1948 and 1961. There's a photo of a trolley at Myrtle and Wyckoff in the Smith and Kramer B Q Transit Book that shows the Parthenon still showing movies (a marquee with lettering on it is visible in the background). By fall 1961 it was a bowling alley on the ground floor. My mom and I would stop in there during my lunch break from first grade at nearby St. Brigid School, 438 Grove Street.
The Imperial Theater used to be at Irving and Dekalb Avenues. My uncle, now age 82, saw the Lugosi "Dracula" there as a kid. Later, it became a Robert Hall clothing store. When that same uncle of mine left the Armed Forces after WW II, he went there for some new civilian clothes.
I miss it also. I think it survived until the late 90's, although had been abandoned and in shambles for as long as I can remember. I was really sorry to see it go when they removed it. It must've been a "real" theater at one time, as opposed to a "movie theater". It was extremely ornate. I never was inside, but when they were demolishing it, the interior was exposed in all it's glory. In the final days the stage was visable from the station. It had ornate plaster around it, and Doric or Corinthian columns, and little balconies near the stage. I wish I took some photos of the demolition.
Here's a photo of it from "Ghost" filmed in the early 90's. It is visable to the left of the J train. (sorry about the quality, it's from a VHS tape as I don't have Ghost on DVD). In addition, for those of you that have Greller's "The Brooklyn ELevated" book on page 93, there is a photo of Myrtle when they were rebuilding the el to Dual Contracts standards, and three tracking the line. The Broadway Theater is visable there in the photo taken in 1913. It didn't appear to be a new building then either, so it must have been an old theater. A real shame it is gone.
"Ghost" was released summer 1990, so I surmise the filming was done in 1989.
Please, what is the full title of the Greller "BMT Elevated" book ? It's good to know about that photo on p. 93.
I believe that Greller did the text and Watson supplied the photos.
You might enjoy the Clive Barker story, "Son Of Celluloid". It's about a run-down but still active revival cinema, and is in a volume of the "Books Of Blood".
The fare structure between PATH ($1.50) and NYCT ($2.00) is different.
Good question because last week I asked about the bus to PATH transfer (even with a setp-up charge) but there is no agreement between the two agencies on this issue.
Maybe at that time the PATH urnstiles at WTC would allow a metrocard entry as well as a quick card. Was it possible?
Among other issues, perhaps older cars are better "known" in the shops and have been optimized over the years for service, while new cars are a relative unknown until they've seen some service life.
Or is that too much to ask?
When several hundred people fight the crowd down to an Arrow III train and walk briskly along the train looking for a car with seats available, how many passengers count cars? Depending on the stairway used, sometimes you don't even see either end of the train.
Only the people with the most highly refined observation skills (you, for example) always know which car they're in.
BTW, on Arrow III trains, the car numbers are usually mentioned in the announcements.
While announcing car numbers would be nice, it could simply add more confusion -- as car numbers aren't visible from all areas of the car (and are missing on the interior of some cars). Also, the car numbers that make up the consist frequently aren't known to all of the crew. Often at Penn, you'll hear the conductor tell the engineer "10 cars, 9724 is the rear motor". If the crew doesn't have that info when they board, they certainly don't know the car numbers in the middle.
The most effective announcements I've heard are "Kew Gardens next. If the doors on your car didn't open at Forest Hills, then they aren't going to open at Kew Gardens".
CG
Agreed. However, at Penn, there is a sign at each track that says "Front of LIRR Train --->"
But then again, how many people take the time to read the signs? I remember, back before the Broadway tracks of the Manhattan Bridge opened up, I would find people standing on the platform of the Canal Street (Bridge Line) station, expecting a train to show up, despite the "TRAINS DON'T STOP HERE" signs hanging over the platform edge. I even saw this when there weren't any tracks for the trains to run on!
NJ Transit does this routinely. I have also been told when having my ticket checked by a conductor that I will need to move up x cars to disembark when the time comes.
As to whether people remember what car they are in: railfans do. Ordinary mortals are paying much more attention to newspapers, magazines, planning work, planning mealsall the other stuff that gets in the way of railfanning! The best that most do is remembering that they are near the front/middle/back.
This is the most effective method as anouncing car numbers still can create a mad scramble to find the correct car.
Its not as bad as you would think as the regular commuters either:
a) Know where they want to be on the train so that they can get to the station exit quickly
or
b) If the train is crowded and they cant get space where they want, at least know that the announcement means get your butt in gear!
The only two places that I hear the announcement regularly are New Brunswick (either direction) and Rahway northbound, where the switch to the outside platform prevents the whole train from platforming.
(Plus Jersey Avenues low-level, where the announcement is find a member of the train crew, but the commuters there all know that)
And I am one of those trainmen who engages in that practice. I find that it avoids delaying the train waiting for the passnegers run to the proper location or dealing with angry passengers who have to ride back to their missed stop.
I don't usually announce car numbers due to the fact that after 5 years on the railroad, I have found that a lot (if not MOST) of people are either too lazy, too stupid, or too drunk to look for things like that. I usually make an announcement where I tell the people that if they're not sure what car they're in, walk forward until they see a member of the crew who will direct them. Of course, all of this "information" is useless when the affected passenger is babbling away on a cellphone and not listening to the announcements. After they miss their stop, I usually tell them that now they can use their lovely cellphone to call a taxi!
How often does this happen, as per your experience?
I was always a regular on train 93 (back in the 80's).
One day I get on the train, and we leave the station, and *then* the conductor tells me that I left my car lights on. : (
So when I got to the city (they didn't *have* cell phones in those days) I called home, and mom drove down to the station and turned them off for me. : )
Elias
:0)
On Sunday a couple got on a southbound 1 at Rector. From their conversation, it appeared that they were on their third attempt at getting to South Ferry. They were positioned properly this time (fourth car), but they still got nervous when the train stopped between stations (I take it a 5 was crossing in front of us).
This move was being done with passengers, despite what some crews seemed to think. (I have an email from the General Superintendent of the 4/5/6 that backs me up on this.)
Northbound 2's ran up the East Side.
What, in this horrible and dangerous city?
I wonder how much they spent on their back-and-forths, since Rector doesn't have a crossover, and if they were using unlimiteds, the 18-minute lockout would still have been in effect on their second try.
I'm sick of people like you suggesting that I have to accept rail service the way its given and like it. If I'm paying to ride the LIRR, and I pay to the tune of over $2,000 yearly, I have the right to AT LEAST ASK FOR superior service. The LIRR isn't giving me anything for free. I'm not asking for anything outlandish here - there are LIRR crew members who do announce the car numbers, so why can't it be standard practice?
Incorrect. The LIRR is giving you at least 40% of your ride for free (Their fare recovery ratio is in the high 50%'s, I believe). They are also most likely to make their money on the first twenty miles outside the city, where the highways are the most congested. I don't know where you travel from, but if you are travelling from ways out in the suburbs, it is likely that LIRR is heavily subsidizing your ride. So they are giving you at least a portion of the ride for free.
I'm not asking for anything outlandish here - there are LIRR crew members who do announce the car numbers, so why can't it be standard practice?
Because, LIRR crew, just like you, are people, and people are not machines and don't always work the same way. If machines operated the LIRR line, then you can expect them always to work in the same way when they're working. When they're not working, they still have to be repaired by a human.
AEM7
Ladies and Gentlemen, our train this afternoon is longer than the platform in ____________, if the blue lights are flashing in your car, please move ____________, to a car that will platform at the station.
Thank you for your inattention.
Incorrect. The LIRR gives me NOTHING for "free." A ride is a ride, its not divided into portions. By your own statistics, I pay for at least 60% of my ride. Right? So right there, my ride is not "free." And how can you divide up a ride by "paid" and "free" sections? Is there a sign posted somewhere along the route saying "Fares Not Applied Beyond This Point?"
And I pay for at least a portion of the "free" 40% of my ride by paying all kinds of taxes to the State, which in turn gives money to the MTA, which in turn funds the LIRR. The LIRR does not have it own money - its either the MTA's money or the riders' money. Either way, I pay.
And I ride in from Cedarhurst, which is about 2 miles from the Queens border. The LIRR still places me in Zone 4 which means I pay as much in fare as someone living much farther out in Nassau County than I do, while being carried fewer miles per day and getting fewer services. So I'm getting rooked there too.
"Because, LIRR crew, just like you, are people, and people are not machines and don't always work the same way. If machines operated the LIRR line, then you can expect them always to work in the same way when they're working. When they're not working, they still have to be repaired by a human."
Bull. There are standardized practices on the LIRR, just as there are in every established business. Ticket checking is done all the time on every train, so why can't car announcements be made a standard practice too? Come on - announcing which cars would be affected by train positioning is not a great additional hardship on anyone. In fact, it wouldn't even always be in place - I have many trips to and from Cedarhurst where all cars stop at all stations, so no announcements would even be necessary. But it would be a nice service for the passengers.
Your post is just another example of someone trying to protect MTA employees to make sure that they have to do as little as possible for their salaries. There are MANY MANY occasions that I see crew members, having completed their ticket-checking in their designated cars, just sitting around griping and moaning about something or another, as if they were the only ones on Earth who feel that they are underpaid and underappreciated. Providing such announcements would be a MINIMAL burden on them and a great service for passengers.
By your logic, parents would have no right to complain about the quality of the public school system -- since it is 100% subsidized.
CG
Actually, no. The American public have basically no right to complain about public schools when compared with their British counterparts who send their kids to private schools. I was one of those private school snobs and I was able to strongarm the school into providing a number of things which I would not have gotten in the public school system in either country. For instance, I pointed out that my absence from school is no cause for their concern: they simply need to make sure the sponsors (i.e. my parents) knew about it, and they have no right to punish me unless the sponsors agreed. The other issue was regarding class scheduling; I made them accommodate a five-subject elective combination when the school nominally support a maximum of four-subjects per academic year. In fact, the contract for my education was terminated with one of the schools because they refused to make this provision; we gave the contract to a competing school that offered a scholarship in addition to the five-elective requirement.
AEM7
Much of the LIRR's funding comes from the MTA as a whole. Subway riders and bridge users are footing some of the bill.
I do agree that this doesn't relieve him of the right to complain.
The fare recovery ratio on the LIRR, prior to the latest fare hike, was 25%. Has the fare hike changed that significantly?
Are you sure about that?
According to the MTA's 2004 budget, on either a cash or accrual basis, the LIRR's farebox recovery is just about 40%, and has been since 2002 (earliest year they show).
See pages 198 - 207 of http://www.mta.info/mta/budget/pdf/financialplan_vi.pdf
CG
If you take bus and subway together, it woul appear that the gap between LIRR and city riders in terms of subsidy has narrowed a bit. That's good.
CG
And so after all these years, do you not yet know which cars will platform at your station, and where to find those cars while they are still in Penn Station?
I Merrick (IIRC) only on 12 car trains did the first two miss the platform. But then I never ever rode on the east end of the train, and so it did not matter to me where those cars stopped.
Elias
Of course, just to be fair, I have to admit the pre-M1's had the stairwells on the trains so people were able to get off where there was no platforms.
Well, I for one would stand on the bottom step, hanging on to the grab iron and leaning over the edge as the train swept into the station.
The grade crossings were great things in those days.
Yeah, stoopit people could get killed or worse, but we could put pennies on the track, and then sit by the wayside and watch the trains come into town.
Elias
How many stations in diesel territory have that problem?
That makes 3 stations so far. Any others?
I'm sure 3 cars is enough for the rush hour traffic.
Greenport shuttle trains seem to platform only 1 1/2 cars, with one of the doors locked out until Ronkonkoma. I'm not sure exactly which of the intermediate stations are short enough to require that.
OK, so this is potentially a problem for passengers.
At Penn the signs direct you to the front of the train. If its a diesel hauled train you're getting on at any station, you need to remember that the diesel locomotive always leads or trails away from Manhattan (unless there are power units on both ends).
It would be nice to know which car you're in positionally...
CG
All of the following are short platforms which regularly have longer trains stopping at them.
Forest Hills and Kew Gardens are only 4 cars.
Hollis is only 4 cars
St. Albans is only 6 cars
Valley Stream is only 8 cars
Rosedale is currently only 6 cars (during renovation -- being expanded to 10)
Lynbrook (Long Beach Branch platform) is only 10 cars
Oceanside is only 8 cars
Amityville/Copaigue/Lindenhurst are only 10 cars
Either New Hyde Park or Merrilon Ave (I think NHP) is only 10 cars
Floral Park westbound mainline is only 6 or 8 cars.
Westwood, Lakeview and Hempstead Gardens are only 4 cars.
Inwood is short -- but I don't recall if it is 4, 6 or 8 cars.
I would think a 10 car platform qualifies as "full length." However, the number of shorter platforms is still pretty considerable.
I wish they had lengthened Kew Gardens and Forest Hills. Recall that LIRR had responded to community requests to improve service to Forest Hills some years back, and had rehabbed the station and added ADA compliance. They then added trains that would stop there. I would have liked a full length pplatform added as well.
Maybe Frank Padavan can help arrange it...
I just realized that my list is short by one obvious station -- Jamaica is only a 10 car platform. On some platforms depending on how the train was switched onto that track and also (I think) where it is going, Jamaica is only open for 8 cars.
CG
I hadn't realized that either! However, having 10 sets of doors open out of 12, or 8 out of 10, is not usually a terrible hardship for passengers (of course rush hour can be its own special hell, no matter how many doors are open).
Yeah, but that still doesn't help if you have no idea what car you are in. I'm a railfan, and I even don't know what car I am in most for the time, forget about your average rider.
However if you have a monthly, they don't ask you where you are going since regulars should know which car they need to be in. Sometimes on peak trains with regular tickets they won't ask either just because they are so busy.
I'd prefer that they made the announcement about first 4 cars one station stop ahead.....ie, on a westbound train, announce that Kew Gardens and Forest Hills are first 4 cars only as you pull into Jamaica, so that you can get off the train and walk forward on the platform (in my experience, thats faster then walking through the cars). They should also be making the anouncement on the train as people are getting on at Jamaica.
As for Penn...since most trains going to Forest Hills and Kew Gardens don't make the Woodside stop, there should be signs at Penn Station telling people to be in the first four cars. Perhaps even signs at the 8th Ave side entrances to the platform telling people to walk forward and board further down for Forest Hills and Kew Gardens.
But honestly, after you do it once, you'll know for the rest of your life....I have a friend who lives in Forest Hills and she always reminds me that we need to sit in one of the first 4 cars if we leave Penn on the same train.
Normally it is controlled by the automation equipment which sends signals from the control center to this electronics bay located in the car:
There will be Customer Service Reps (CSR's) riding the trains to assist passengers, but (at the time I asked) there would not be one in every car. Perhaps that has changed.
Indeed. Here's a pic I took today on Vancouver's Skytrain:
Fast Forward
It's been edited a little for artistic purposes (hence the title) but you get the general idea.
-Robert King
Skytrain runs underground downtown. On the rest of the system, the view from the front window normally looks something like this:
1 end of Metrotown Station from the inbound track
The line is computer-controlled. No T/Os onboard, and while there will be a central control center the operators there don't have the ability to drive the vehicles remotely.
Here is a description of a previous installation of the use of the ATO/ATC system used on Airtrain:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~dodger/tech.htm
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Its a shame this guy is going to have to end his last term with a failure. I mean most senators equate rail transport with some sort of socialism so any constructive debate on the matter is just impossible.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12012003.shtml#Shoot
As far as socialism goes, if we had a foreign company own and operate the train lines, with foreign people employed on it only, then we can make a guise and say it's part of "free trade". Works on everything else.
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Ever since they imposed a 25 mph PSR through towm for grade crossing consideration (Wallingford at one time lead the nation in per capita grade crossing fatalities) there has been little point for trains NOT to stop there.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12012003.shtml#Amtrak
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Yeah...and these new fast trains will have special wide, air cushioned maliable wheels, "steerable" boogies and will be made to run on wide, flat "monorail" tracks. I'm surprised that Texas isn't poineering an experiment in spending federal dollars that deals with extra wide lanes for double wide pickup trucks.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12012003.shtml#Texas
Anyway, i was unclear about something in regards to this, I thought the trains may have to go for a vote(just when the anti-rail people in dallas and houston packed up and went home(out-of-state)).
I do love the trans-texas corridor plans.
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NEW TRAINS?!?!?! OH NO!! Quick! The NINBY Signal. Da-da da-da- da-da da-da, da-da da-da da-da da-da Ass-holes.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12012003.shtml#Poughkeepsie
"The route extends from Metro-North tracks along the Hudson River through the city into the Town of Poughkeepsie to the Hudson River Psychiatric Center, and then back into the city to the Smith Street Yards. "
Will the psychiatric center have a spur track for special deliveries? :0)
At one time they did, 100 years or so ago. Somewhere at home I have a postcard depicting the spur and its station.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Proof that anencephalic politicians occasionally can be found beyond NYC limits.
The statement should be Proof that anencephalic politicians are ubiquitous.
Unfortunately.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Regards,
Jimmy
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
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This new "record" just goes to show how piss poor the European rail freight network is. For comparason a sizable number of american mannifest and bulk freight trains typically run with loads between 10,000 and 16,000 tonnes on a regular basis.
In Europe two axle freight cars are the norm, doubleheading is nearly unheard of and automatic knuckle couplers seem to have a voodo hex on them. As a result their highway system is clogged with trucks witch have a tendency to explode in tunnels killing scads of people at a time. Sure they might have a nice passenger network, but their freight network absolutely sucks and I would rather have trucks off the road than more passenger rail options.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12012003.shtml#Poughkeepsie
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12012003.shtml#Germany
Conrail ore trains could easily go up to 20,000 tons (see the current issue of TRAINS). Not only is the freight network crap, it is also a waste of energy. Ore trains running at 50mph consuming 24,000hp of power, while a similar ore train would probably run with just 12,000hp and at 30mph in North America. Ore just seems to be the densiest thing out there.
AEM7
Containers are light.
AEM7
AEM7
A couple months ago you could have seen "Amtrak Freight Train No. #44" snake out of Harrisburg station and reach some 70mph on the main line between Harrisburg and Lewistown. Too bad all the freights have been cut and the consist is down to one diesel electric with two coaches and a Cafe.
If you're talking about REAL freight railroads going real fast, your best bet is the Conrail main line (ex-NYC) through Upstate New York, through VOOSHERVILLE (ask SelkirkTMO). These days track speed up there is mostly 60mph or 70mph, depending. Most of the CSX and NS trackage in the New York area are slow crawls. There's also NS freight trains running on the Northeast Corridor, oaksmodelrr and Jersey Mike would know the schedules.
AEM7
Stego
N Bwy
Oh yeah? Well I think you must have bumped your head recently.
Oh yeah? Well I think you must have bumped your head recently.
Studies sponsored by the American Trucking Association?
Trucks are environmentally damaging. But there are trucks and there are trucks. Trucks that do intermodal drayage is almost unavoidable, as are trucks that deliver aggregates to construction sites in the city. However trucks that deliver ore to plants, coal to power stations, etc could easily be replaced with rail. In the same way that no one is calling for NYC subway to be extended to Albany, there are different kinds of trucks, some of which can be substituted by rail, others cannot and should not.
AEM7
It's you who need to get off your German kick.
People here care about rail service in places other than the US. No one here wants to hear your ethnic prejudices.
I have my facts straight. You said:
"I don't give a hoot about those rotten Germans, the filthy bunch of ingrates."
You did not call members of the German government filthy ingrates (who I agree with you would deserve the appelation), you applied that to the entire population of the country. That is ethnic prejudice, bigotry, and all the rest.
You wouldn't like it (and neither would I) if anyone called Italians or Italian-Americans filthy anythings. Why is it OK to say it of Germans as a whole?
"Phil Meyer, Fred Repke, John Meiers, Jerry Dohling, and Paul Tyrrell are five of my closest friends and all are either pure American-German descent or most of it."
Are you saying that it's OK to call people filthy as long as they don't live in the United States?
No war - no corpse
There was no reason for an attack against the Iraq.
Bush ordered the attack and now he gets the result.
It's only sad for the families with dead soilders. (The price is to high)
>numerous meetings with Al Quada members
Never heard of that.
Question is how long. China is going to have its own problems.
They are going to be more capitalistic in the future and i guess as a
result someday a democracy. This evolution gives them a lot of problems,
so may be they can't control Kim Jong Il.
>use Nucs to destroy them
And the environment is also destroied for tousands of years.
Compared with the nuces of today, the two dropped in Japan wasn't big,
but the two cities still have problems today.
Might I suggest you turn off Fox (or CNN) and get some real news?
Saddam Hussain was never allied with al Qaida. Al Qaida's backers are primarily Saudi.
Get off the computer and back on the monkeybars, Georgie....
I was going to address the Anti german sentiments.. b/c somehow I knew it was going to go here.. Racism is wrong!
N Bwy
There you have it. Any hyphenated American group is fine by you, but whole foreign nationalities are inherently no damn good. Not their governments or certain of the people. All the people.
What if somebody said that American Jews were fine; it was just all those foreign Jews who were uniformly malevolant people. Would that be OK?
The point appears to have gone clean over your head...
N Broadway
Just how many hours of intense thought did it take you to come up with that awe-inspiring display of your obviously superior intellect?
Here's a pic of the used freight car:
and of the locomotive [i've operated with it twice a three car passenger
train - i loved the acceleration :-) ]
(Sorry that the pics are only from model railway, only did a fast search)
The axle limit is coming from the signal technique. They are counting
up at the entrance point and down at the exit point. The highest number
is 255 and one more (256) is the same as 0. So if a train with 256
occupies a block the counter will be a the value 0 resulting in a
green signal for the occupied block.
Sure they might have a nice passenger network, but their freight network absolutely sucks and I would rather have trucks off the road than more passenger rail options
Guess what—we have neither. The freight railroads keep losing market share to trucks in this country. Slow drag freights are not the way to go if the rail freight companies actually want to compete—fast freight has to make a comeback.
Here’s the right link, BTW.
Highlights are:
Leicester Sq/Tottenham Court Rd: Chinatown
Tower Hill: Tower of London
Westminster: Houses of Parliament
Paddington: Concert Hall, Victoria & Edward Museum
Hey, I miss that place sometimes.
AEM7
Seriously, you can get off at Tottenham Court Road and walk to Russell Square or vice-versa as an easy stroll.
AEM7
suggests that a nice walk would be from St Pauls, across the Millennium bridge (which I believe has now been fixed), then along to London Bridge.
Somewhere to the right of the map is Southwark Cathedral, and Tower Bridge (which is now a museum and you can walk across the top), is nearby.
Too much to do, too much to see!
That is indeed a nice walk. Look for the map in the unpaid part of St Pauls tube station that indicates how to get to the footbridge. On the way to the bridge you will pass St Pauls Cathedral (if you have time visit the (internal) whispering gallery and (external) stone gallery with great views of the city.
Between Bankside and London Bridge you will pass the newly rebuilt Globe theatre (rebuild by Sam and Zoe Wanamaker to the original design of Shakespeare's time) and several other interesting places.
The BBC has details.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2000/millennium_bridge/default.stm
A significant portion of the cost of running an airline is the ground infrastructure which, in a lot of cases, is rented/leased as part of a shared facility. Airlines have chosen to break this cost out of the overall ticket charge, so they can advertise cheaper flightsthe sticker shock comes later.
I believe this is fraudulent, as its not as if the charges/taxes/etc are optional. Think of NJ Transit advertising a $1 ticket from Princeton Junction to New York, except that it has a $3 Princeton Junction facility charge, a $2 Amtrak Rails Charge and a $2 Penn Station Facility Charge!
Coming from England, where what you see is what you pay (almost universally), as the equivalent of sales tax, VAT, is built into the advertised price, I was bemused when learning that sales tax is additional to the price in the US.
Or how about a $1.25 single-ride subway fare that also requires payment of a $0.75 skell-removal charge :)
Seriously, though, I have to give Virgin credit for honesty. When I searched its site last night for the best fares, it showed the $335.08 right upfront, rather than the basic fare without taxes and fees. Nor did it follow the truly odious practice found in many airline ads, showing a very low fare that upon closer examination turns out to be one-half of the round trip fare.
Interesting observation: I checked several of the low-fare ticket sites, like Expedia, Travelocity, lowestfares.com and cheaptickets.com, and they all were right around the $335 I found on VS's site. I guess they don't always have real bargains.
British Airways is currently advertising a $99 special to London (to celebrate the arrival of Concorde at the Intrepid). They do say its each way, but I wonder what the real cost is with the taxes.
As for prices, since 2000, the cheapest fares have been United, United, Air Canada (through Priceline), Virgin, BA. It always pays to take a look at the airlines own web site as there are sometimes bargains that dont appear elsewhere, especially if you can vary your travel dates by a day or so at the beginning and end. I usually end up with a dozen browser windows open before I make my final choice!
Ill miss the good Christmas television (watching the best of Morecombe and Wise and Only Fools and Horses reminds me of Christmases of my youth), but Im opting for Springtime in the Park.
Not true. When you go to a UK travel agent to book a ticket, the advertized price in the window is sometimes not available, and the advertized price is always exclusives of airports tax, etc.
The reason US sales tax is addition is because you can buy things across state lines while you are supposed to not pay tax (to the producing state) when engaging in interstate commerce. You are supposed to record such transactions and pay your local state taxes on out-of-state purchases, but of course in practice no one does.
The US sales tax system is better. The locals are much more aware of the tax and the companies that produce goods don't have to compete harder in states that have higher tax rates. They simply make a uniform pre-tax price and then let the taxpayers realize they are paying tax, and lobby their politican for tax cuts. This is the reason why U.S. state sales taxes are much lower than their British counterparts -- because Britons don't realize their government is ripping them off.
AEM7
As for sales tax, believe me, I was always aware of VAT at 15% (or even higher at times!). Whether its a rip-off depends on whether you think youre getting value for money from your government.
Yes, in the era of regulated airlines and "British Airways" monopoly.
As for sales tax, believe me, I was always aware of VAT at 15% (or even higher at times!).
17.5% across the whole nation, and have always been this way I think since the Thatcher administration.
Whether its a rip-off depends on whether you think youre getting value for money from your government.
Government never gives you good value for money!
The MTA is essentially a state govt operation in NY, and the MetroCard ranks as one of the best values around.
Most of you New Yorkers (even the ones who have never set foot in Europe) already know what I'm talking about. Like when you walk into a Chinese food joint. 95% of the places in NY have the tax built in. So if good ol' pork fried rice is listed as $2.75, then that's what you'll pay.
It's too bad that the US cannot adopt this convenient form of payment. It would be nice to pull out exactly $49 for something that costs $49 with tax included. Then again with this system, one couldn't barter to pay for a medium-large ticket item without tax when paying with cash.
The line is (partly) subway and (mostly) elevated, and if you can get a seat at the front you have a full width railfan window, because it is fully automated.
If you have only time for one ride, I'd suggest riding from Bank (interchange with Central, Northern, Circle and District lines) out to Cutty Sark on the Lewisham line. This gives you both subway and elevated sections, and if you have time can spend a bit of it in historic Greenwich and perhaps take in the Cutty Sark itself (a preserved sailing clipper).
On the way back, retrace your steps to Heron Quays, and walk the short (and sign-posted) distance to Jubilee line's Canary Wharf station. This is a very new extension and the station's underground is an enormous cathedral like space.
Incidentally I suggest that you buy a one-day off-peak all-zones travelcard which costs UKP5.10, and lets you ride anywhere in London after 9.30am (all day on weekends) on the Underground, DLR, Red Buses and National Rail trains. More information here.
And maybe drink some Cutty Sark (hic!)
You can also get off at Island Gardens and walk under the river in the historic foot tunnel.
H&C/Circle Baker St. platforms, and lots of train operations thru Baker St. Metropolitan. Also Farringdon Metropolitan, Aldgate Metropolitan.
The Jubilee line extension stations -- big and impressive.
The Northern line is pretty complex, lots of trains.
Docklands Light Rail - lots of good photo ops. between Canary Wharf and Poplar; main line rail at Stratford; under Thames tunnel to Lewisham
If you're into trams, Croydon Tramlink (take train from Victoria to E. Croydon or Waterloo -- or the District line-- to Wimbledon). Some nice street running portions around E. Croydon
The Central line Hainault loop, and the Piccadilly line between Ealing and Uxbridge have some really nice picturesque stations many with overpasses for photos.
Still not, until they fix the switch at Camden town, unfortunately.
Some of my favorite segments:
-Met/Jubliee Line express/local operation north of Baker St. The Met will show you how a real express is run.
-Jubliee extension
-Earl's Court station on the district with the old train boards. It's a very busy station
-Baker St has lots of train operation and has a poster telling you that you are in the oldest subway station in the world.
For an express ride, get a Watford, Amersham or Chesham train (these should say fast or semi-fast, most of these start at Baker St) and change onto an Uxbridge train at Harrow-otH.
wayne
Class 332 rolling stock is nominally limited to 100mph. At 102mph the speed limiter will kick in, shutting off power.
AEM7
Started at Covent Garden
Piccadilly to King's X
H&C to Farringdon
Metropolitan to Rayners Lane with photo stops at Harrow on the Hill and West Harrow
Piccadilly to Hammersmith
H&C to Edgeware Road
District to East Putney with photo stop at Notting Hill Gate
District to Sloane Square
I also did some other shorter trips, making slight detours while en route to my real destination. Also, I would ride the DLR if you can. A fun thing to do is to take the ferry if you visit Greenwich. Then, on the return trip, walk through the tunnel under the river. It comes out near the Island Gardens DLR station, and you can then take DLR back to the city.
The DLR is always good fun - full RFWs and a great ride, especially the Lewisham Branch.
Don't forget about National Rail trains. They tend to be out in the open, so more interesting.
Change off the northbound Victoria line - and return from WIllesden either by the DC line to Euston - or jump onto the frequent Bakerloo line which shares the same tracks.
As in NYC avoid the rush hours and school out hours for obvious reasons. (and dont show u are a tourist !)
It's every 20 minutes on Saturdays and every 30 minutes on Sundays. On Mondays to Fridays, alternate trains turn at Stratford (as there is some single tracking to N Woolwich). During the rush hour, there are extra trains between Stratford and Camden Rd.
I referred to the "base service" ...
Very hard work with 450 traincrew etc + West Coast issue.Nevr a dull moment.!
Most traffic south of Stratford was lost with the Jubilee line apart from peaks - so its on a drip feed.Watch out for the DLR - whichc is the best solution probably as much traffic naturally terminates at Stratford (SX in rly terms)
Some ideas at the moment of making Clapham - Camden Rd - Stratford a through link - especially with higher frequewncies on the West Lodnon line making turnbacks at Kensinton tricky.
I suspect what will happen with DLR once the Canning Town - Woolwich Arsenal and Canning Town - Stratford Intl branches open is:
- 6tph Woolwich - Bank
- 6tph Woolwich - Stratford Intl
- 6tph King George V - Crossharbour (rush hour only)
This will probably outcompete the JLE as the lines would actually go somewhere.
Some ideas at the moment of making Clapham - Camden Rd - Stratford a through link
Yuck! What I'd much prefer is when Virgin double their frequency to Birmingham to send the extra 2tph after Watford to West Brompton and Clapham Junction (maybe replacing the crappy Brighton via Didcot service).
Due to a Police investigation at Times Square-42nd Street, the 2 train is running on the 5 line from Nevins Street to 149th Street-Grand Concourse, while the 1 & 3 trains are suspended from 137th Street to Chambers Street and from 96th Street to Nevins Street, respectively.
Oh, are you going to attend the SF hearing tonight in Staten Island? I will be there after 6.
By the way, kids, don't put your fingers in the seam of a closed door on an R142/3 train, because you'll get pinched when the doors open. Don't think that happens on the R46's, though.
BTW, that pinch happens in all car types. It just hurts more when you do it to a R142/A or R143.
I am desperately seeking any info on where to go to get some good photographs (if they still exist) or basically just wander around and see the things firsthand.
I know thre is tons if pictures on this site but I want to go there myself.
Any info is appreciated.
Jim
Some people get in there with permission; others have zoom lenses. The tracks at Bush Terminal are close to the street, so you can get a decent shot with a wide-angle lens through the chain link fence. The Costco parking lot next to South Brooklyn Yard is an excellent vantage point.
any more information is helpful
You are an employee of NY Cross Harbor RR or NYCT (or LIRR; some scrap M-1s have turned up there) with a reason to be in there. Alternately, you could try to ask the security guard for admission, but it isn't guaranteed.
Any R-26/28/29 cars that weren't reefed are being preserved. I would guess the remaining R-14 through 22 cars still in work service may be floated to NJ via Cross Harbor as the R-33s replace them.
Is 7643 even in the work fleet?
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/queens/nyc-nyair033568749dec03,0,4645094.story?coll=nyc-manheadlines-queens
I have to wonder about Newsdays slant on the story however:
A lawyer representing them [the family of Kelvin DeBourgh Jr, the worker killed in the 2002 derailment], Douglas Milch, said: "We have serious doubts as to the public safety of this system. If we have no faith or confidence in manual testing of the AirTrain, how can you have faith or confidence for the safety of the general public in an automated system?"
So Douglas Milch knows more than the PA engineers, the contractors engineers, the NTSB engineers
No no no. You got it all wrong. He said FAITH and CONFIDENCE, which is different from knowing the truth. FAITH is something you believe in for no reason, an irrational belief. CONFIDENCE is a sentiment where you believe something will work, regardless of whether it will actually work or not.
NewsDay was simply airing one man's opinion.
AEM7
How bout we all take a ride on the 1st train?
I'd like that, but as of yet, opening time and train info is not available.
"Beginning December 17, passengers will be able to use, free of charge, the six stations in the Central Terminal Area loop for easy connections among all terminals; the Lefferts Boulevard Station for long-term and employee parking; and the Federal Circle Station for car rentals. Service between the Howard Beach and the Jamaica Station AirTrain terminals and the on-airport stations will cost $5 for a single trip. Monthly passes offering unlimited trips will cost $40. Terminals at Howard Beach and Jamaica Station will enable airport passengers and employees to make more than 1,500 fast, easy, convenient and reliable connections every day between the airport and the A, E, J and Z subway lines; Long Island Rail Road trains; and buses. Service from Penn Station in Manhattan to JFK's terminals via AirTrain JFK is projected to take less than 45 minutes; the trip from midtown Manhattan to JFK can presently take more than two hours by car or taxi. The approximately 8-mile light-rail system is expected to serve 34,000 passengers per day at the start."
This release is still not on the PA website, nor is any other info on the service.
My Dec. 2002 bus map shows the Q10 running along Conduit to 130 st., then 134 st. into the airport, not PanAm Rd. Has the route been changed?
My Dec. 2002 bus map shows the Q10 running along Conduit to 130 st., then 134 st. into the airport, not PanAm Rd. Has the route been changed?
Also, see new Airtrain brochure in my other post just now.
Since it will be rush hour, I was thinking that a train stright through to JFK would be better, and faster, then a bus. Don't forget who knows about the trafic situation.
Some afternoon rush hour trains from Penn bypass Jamaica, otherwise the answer is yes.
CG
The JFK Airtrain should have an advantage over Newark for late arrivals. LIRR has 5 or 6 trains per hour from Jamaica to Penn as late as 1 AM. NJT service dies down pretty quickly to about 2 or 3 trains per hour once the PM peak period is over. I've spent too much time on that EWR platform late at night with that horrible stench of rotting trash wafting over the fence.
CG
Do people think that maybe Albany (state government) wants to remember the 100th anniversity of the airplane by opening the JFK AirTrain without properly testing it?
Oh, and between what two stations is the AirTrain yard?
The AirTrain Newark could also use an update... it still tells you to go to NY Penn Station and take the subway or use the 33rd Street PATH line in order to go to "Downtown Manhattan". No mention of the reopened WTC PATH line.
#3 West End Jeff
The Jerk Rate is the rate of change of acceleration; and it is expressed in units of miles per hour per second per second. Today it is a factor in establishing levels of passenger comfort (related to acceleration and deceleration). To fast of a Jerk Rate can result in the vehicle lurching forward and passengers falling back.
I am interested in finding vehicle operating characteristics related to the R 46, including: acceleration, deceleration, operating proceedures of the motor operator, Jerk Rate studies, etc. If you can point me in the right direction that would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Generally, the Jerk Coefficient should be (1/Jerk Rate) taken to some x exponet, where x is 1 or 2 or ??
--Z--
It still is, but not here on Schlubtalk.
To whom are you referring?
But the two slower notches were long since DEAD, and so it was basically UP or DOWN.
Now I had to run this elevator while the elevator operator took his lunch period. Well, the car was known for starting and stopping abruptly, and some people always said that it ran with a jerk.
I told them that the *could* use the stairs.
: ) Elias
"Well the Jerk Store called, and they're running out of you!"
(George Costanza to Businessman) Seinfeld episode
Nah. That's the factor of stupidity.
IIRC, they were lenghened slightly towards each other but mostly in the opposite direction.
Interesting.
Elias
This sort of thing has been going on forever - in the 70's someone made a habit of carving "PRAY" on the coinboxes of pay phones (which were shiny chrome compared to the matte black of the rest of the phone housing). They defaced every phone they could get to, and the circulation of coinboxes as they were emptied distributed them to non-public places as well. We had a slang name for this guy's work - "pray phone" (instead of "pay phone").
Not to be too demanding or anything, but I have one more London question. In addition to poking around the Underground, I'd like to make a quick mainline rail trip if time permits. What I had in mind was a trip of about an hour or so, followed by a bit of exploring in the destination. What I'd like to know, therefore, is a trip that might fit the following requirements:
1. No more than 60 minutes one-way from the London terminus.
2. Reasonably frequent service during the day, e.g. two hours or less between trains.
3. Decent scenery en route (can be interesting urban views as well as rural vistas).
4. An interesting, pedestrian-friendly town within walking distance of the station. Note that it does not have to be a typical tourist destination, in fact in some ways I'd prefer it if it isn't.
I know, this is a lot to ask, but I'd really aprpeciate any advice.
Brighton: 50 mins from London Waterloo, beach town, urban scenery en-route (rural once you get past Gatwick), 3rd rail MU's.
Cambridge: 45 mins from London King's Cross, college town, mostly rural scenery en route, lots of green grass, overhead line MU's.
Oxford: 65 mins from London Paddington, college town, mostly urban scenery en route, train passes North Pole depot for Eurostars, DMU's.
Henley-on-Thames: site of the big annual regetta, posh SUPER-QUAINT English town, about 75 mins from Paddington with a change at Reading (good railfanning site on Brunel's Great Western Rly), off the beaten track, somewhat romantic spot. Service operated by Thames Trains.
AEM7
Visit Oxford to see the University buildings, which are very old and very impressive.
For a spectacular view of the English countryside I suggest Box Hill, near Dorking. You take a suburban train from Waterloo and then there is quite a trek up the hill.
Waterloo or Victoria. Go to either and get the first train that calls at Epsom. If the train doesn't go on to call at Box Hill & Westhumble, change at Epsom - it'll either be same platform or cross-platform.
You could also go visit Oxford or Cambridge and walk around the Universities.
Also-- there's plenty of places that you can take the Underground out and Mainline rail back for a short trip. Upminster. Stratford. Ealing Broadway. Wimbledon. Greenwich (DLR).
Vaguely interesting places about an hour or less from London include:
1) St Alban's - historic Roman and mediaeval town - get on any Northbound Thameslink, preferably a Fast one.
2) Oxford - slightly over an hour from Paddington, but THE university town.
3) Cambridge - people from Cambridge would disagree with what I just said about Oxford - it can be reached from King's X or Liverpool St, so it's perfect for a round trip...
4) Coventry - Virgin Trains from Euston, half-hourly service - ruins of the Cathedral destroyed by the Jerries in WWII, National Motor Museum, a few nice churches and some awful 1960s town planning in between.
5) Winchester - trains from Waterloo, destination: Southampton, Bournemouth or Weymouth - nice old city.
6) Salisbury - trains from Waterloo, destination: Salisbury, Yeovil or Exeter - another nice old city.
7) Brighton - frequent services from Victoria, London Bridge and East Croydon - other people have already said why it's great, but I think there are better towns on the South Coast, notably:
8) Chichester - county town of West Sussex, the smallest City in England and definitely one of the most beautiful places in the country. At its centre is a Tudor Market Cross and it has a HUGE cathedral. Nearby are the beaches at the Witterings. Oh and the trains go from Victoria.
9) Portsmouth. It's not as grim as people say. Trains from Waterloo, also slower ones via Chichester from Victoria.
10) Arundel - hourly service from Victoria - nice castle.
If you wanted somewhere more rural:
1) Box Hill. Get the first train from either Waterloo or Victoria that calls at Epsom. Change there (same platform or cross-platform) if it doesn't go on to call at Box Hill & Westhumble. Trains roughly half-hourly, more in the rush hour, some rush hour trains to/from London Bridge.
2) Anywhere in the South Downs...
Yes. I rode it this summer.
According to this web site, it re-opens for 2004 on Good Friday (the friday before easter).
-Robert King
-Robert King
-Robert kIng
No, there was no demand. Some lines esp cross-London ones did fall through the crack when the franchises were decided, but mostly because they were lightly used and weren't worth developing when the railroad became fragmented. Had it been Network Southeast, they could have developed it more, but the rolling stock there was bad enough as it is...
Not really - I can do day trips from Birmingham to Epsom, including a cross-London transfer. Okay, that does involve setting out pretty early and arriving back late at night, but it's doable. Anyway, no-one's suggested anything quite that monstrous.
Good point. I've gotten some good suggestions so far, thanks to everyone, and right now I'd say I'm leaning toward Brighton. The 60-minute trip is reasonable, and it sounds as if the city's not really a tourist destination, at least in winter. My idea of tourism is to go where and when the other tourists don't.
Another option would be Stratford-upon-Avon, too.
Takes quite a long time to get to from London: about 130 minutes direct from Paddington. Likewise, Warwick is 97 minutes out of Marylebone (which shows quite how pisspoor the Leamington-Stratford service is...).
Shows that Chiltern need Fast Trains.
I'd like to rebuild platform 4 at Banbury into a through platform and have Chiltern do what MML do at Leicester - a cross-platform interchange where the Fast train overtakes the Slow one.
1) take BR train from Waterloo Station to Portsmouth
2) take Ferry to Ryde, Isle of Wight (runs every half hr)
3) train from Ryde to Shanklin leaves right at quayside. ]
4) reverse directions to return to London. Ferry to Portsmouth, then BR train to Waterloo.
Simon and I left at 9:45am and got back about 6:15pm. This included a stop at the Ryde St.John's Shoppe and a walk through the town to the High Street, and also a lunch stop. We killed over 2 hrs doing that.
wayne
Quite a lot to see whilst you are there. Windsor Castle is probably the best preserved Castle in England, and it is huge, looming over the town. If you have time, you can visit the state rooms there which are impressive.
There is the River Thames, which is particularly atractive in Windsor. If you fancy it, and the weather is decent, there are boat trips.
A short walk across the bridge is Eton, with its shool where most of the British establishment go to school, and a fine mediaeval chapel.
All pretty pedestrian friendly. It is a fairly small town, and nothing is more than 10 minutes walk from anywhere else. Here is some tourist info.
And from the point of view of a train journey, the great advantage is there are two different routes so you can make it a round trip. Catch the electric train from London Waterloo direct to Windsor & Eton Riverside (twice hourly/50min journey), then return from Windsor & Eton Central to London Paddington changing at Slough (twice hourly/30-40min). Or vica versa.
Both journeys are pretty urban; you won't see much in the way of rural scenery beyond a few fields. On the Waterloo leg you will see Clapham Junction (supposedly the UKs busiest rail station in terms of train movements). On the Paddington Log the depot where the Channel tunnel trains are maintained.
I figure there are 2 possible explinations.
1. It was some stock announcement in the computer and someone was flipping through them.
2. Or this is part of the new communication system.
Any thoughts?
Sean@Temple
-Robert King
Airtrain---Or Ticket To Hell?
If you're not familiar with New York Press, I think it's safe to say that it has a definite anti-establishment slant.
Has anyone heard of the violent rocking incident as described in the article?
Not so much anti-establishment as perpetually cynical. You name the idea, plan, scheme etc., and the Press will point out why it'll never work. It's probably because I'm on the cynical side that I can see this tone in the Press.
You mean "Armstrong Levers"? Did the Subway EVER have those things?
Elias
As much as I like conventional interlocking plants, they do require
frequent lubrication, cleaning and adjustment. And when adding
a switch means machining new tappet bars, these old clunkers just
can't compete with all-relay plants.
I am familiar with many cases of service disruptions because
of worn mechanical parts that caused levers to bind, locks
not to release, contact bands not to make up, etc. Not to mention
the occasional (on Model 14 machines) lever pulled clean out
of the machine!
You are right that these things (unless a master or traffic
lever is involved) generally can't cripple the entire plant
and definitely not the entire division.
In theory, all of the computer-based automatic dispatching
systems are just a Windoze application that "pushes" the
entrance/exit buttons of a conventional NX/UR plant. If
the computer craps out you can always go to the maintainer's
panel or aux control panel (if provided) and line the routes.
However, if management is relying on the cost savings provided
by the computer, there may not physically be enough people around
to manually push those buttons!
R-32.
How did the push-button emergency release work? Was there
a timer associated with it?
You could make any machine pickup a GRS indication magnet, the north end of West 4th works that way now.
I haven't met anyone who's even heards of a GRS Model 4 switch on the system, and I've asked a few "curators" about it. Even the machines on the now defunct K tracks at ENY were Model 5's, but the circuit controllers were of an older design.
Model 1 - Introduced by Taylor, like a Model 2 with no pole changer
Model 2 - Simple machine with gears upright, small size, but a little tall. Had a connecting point for a detector bar - used for converting a pipeline mechanical into an electric interlocking without installing track circuits.
Model 4 - Developed for the New York Central, flat to clear 3rd rail shoes. Gears and motor flat to the ground. Cam bar moves twice in the same direction for each throw.
Model 5 - Develpoed for the BRT(N.Y.M.Ry.)because the Model 4 was to wide for use in the hole, it is short and flat. Cam bar moves out and back during throw, motor and clutch are parallel to the rails, and other operating gears are flat to the ground.
Model 5A,B,C,D,etc. were Model 5's modified for mainline RR's with such features as integral point detectors, and dual-mode operation.
Model 6 - A Model 5 for use in yards, lacking a lock bar. Because of this modification the operating time is only 1 second (instead of 3). Developed for use in hump classification yards.
Model 7 - Essentially a motor driven switch stand for roads with a limited capital budget.
We call it a "Switch Machine" or "Switch and Lock Movement," but rarely a "Switch Movement."
I know you guys were duscussing interlockers, but Jeff and I have been wondering about the Mod.4/BMT thing for a while, and he did ask the question...
GRS is confusing because everything was a "Model -this- Form -that-"
Model 4 switch machine, Model 7 form B CC Box, Model 2 Form A relay, Model 2 Form B List 25 modified line relay, Model 2 interlocker, Model 2 switch, its all good.
http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/120103/a0101trainhit.html
I thought I had one some months ago at the following site...
http://www.ic.sunysb.edu/Stu/hyao/bdb/DSCN1750.jpg
Unfortunately the link is no longer good.
Does anyone know of another picture?
Here's a shot of R-33 9032:
Here's an odd one from another R-33:
The same can be said of the PRR's _Union_, a Chicago-Cincinnati/ Columbus train, which carried a lightweight 10/6 sleeper and (probably) lightweight coaches between Chicago and Norfolk in connection with the N&W, but was mostly heavyweight as regards its head-end cars.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
"Ladies and Gentlemen -- It's the holiday season and the trains will get very crowded over the next few weeks. Make sure you hold onto all your personal belongings and be alert for pick-pocketers. If you run into trouble, please get off the train at the next stop and dial 9-1-1 from the phone on the station platform. If you're traveling with children, please keep them close by."
Then he went on to repeat the announcement.
that's like letting logic escape.
VC Madman
I don't want to be bothered with any problems on my train. If something happens get off the train. Don't tell me because then I have to radio Control Center and the train might be held to wait for police. Then my C/R and I will not finish our shifts until much later.
Anyway, I rode through that area this afternoon and the switches are still in place. Of course whether they are operational is another story.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Good luck making it in.
Chuck Greene
Chuck feels like a homebrah, even tho he's a PA homebrah!
Self, a short commute down I-87 to 242-VCP then into 42-TSQ for S.
Recharging cam batteries as we type....
There was a surprise sheet of ice on New Jersey roads from Mercer County up to New York Tuesday morning. It took me 2 hours to go 3 miles on 295 (from mile 59 to mile 62). My usual 50 minute drive to work took 3 hours.
At least this storm is in the forcast. I also hope to make it to Hamilton Saturday morning.
I don't want to miss this golden opportunity!
Bundle up!
lol nevermind brah
John
Redbirds in the SNOW?!?!?!!!!!
8CD
VC Madman
VC Madman
#3 West End Jeff
I know that you can use Metrocard for the WTC to NJ PATH ride, but as of now you have to use PATH card to go to NYC.
My question is, do you know if the Unlimited (30 day) Metrocard will be accepted at the turnstiles?
If yes, I'll save a lot on my commute.
Any info is appreciated!
Craig
Robert
Using metrocard at PATH was interesting in that you insert the card into the front of the turnstile, and the card is returned at the top. I actually think this method of swiping is better....slightly more time consuming then the MTA turnstile swipes, but the card is guaranteed to read on the first swipe, which is not the case with MTA turnstiles!
I also don't think I saw any turnstiles at WTC PATH station where you could insert cash...but I did see special machines selling single ride Quick Cards....
The end turnstile on each side of the station (furthest from the stairs leading up) has one of the old "coins & bills" tower machines. There is a stainless steel box between it and the Cubic turnstile which conceals a PC being used as an adapter.
The closest you can get is to put $30 on the card. The 20% bonus will add $6.00 for a total of $36.00. The leftover $1.00 will drive some people nuts.
In putting both fares on the same card the 20% benefit bringing the cost of a subway ride down to $1.67 will be lost because as I mentioned above $20 of the $35 will go to the subway fare at full fare and the $15 will go to the PATH at full fare.
Also the discount gained by buying a PATH Quickcard at $24 would be lost as well.
When they install the new turnstiles at 33rd St and Pavonia/Newport I will stick to buying separate cards.
There WILL be a savings if both fares are paid for by the MetroCard under the current set up
The amount needed on a Metrocard to cover a week (5 days) of regular round trip travel on both systems would be $35 ($20 subway, $15 PATH) in actual amount deducted from the card ($3.50 each way per day).
You are getting $35 worth (with that pesky extra dollar left over to make $36) to cover 20 rides for $30. That comes out to $1.50 per ride for a total of $3.00 each way. You save $.50 each way or $1.00 a day over the deducted cost. You save on the subway but not on PATH.
Now if we can only figure out what to do with the left over dollar. You would have to refill 7 times @ $30 to cover one days trips.
My apologies to all.
http://www.boarshevik.com/metrocard.xls
I made that list after the fare hike to figure out how to deal with the sub-$2 amount I had left on the card without ever adding less than $2.
Of course I mean $10.
When I was a kid, our family lived on Schenectady Avenue and my mom could never spell it out so she always told people she lived on E. 47th Street and the mail always got there.
I guess this shows that Bay Parkway once upon a time was called 22nd Avenue. If you look at the map, it is obviously in the exact place 22nd Avenue should be. But I don't know if old timers ever referred to it as such.
Elementary, my dear Holmes. :)
The refrence to 22nd Avenue hasn't been entirely removed, either. Signs near the ends of each platform proudly bear both names.
Thas the facts.
Elais
Specifically, no. But the desire exists, given the awkward and bottlenecking terminal operations at 2nd Ave. The TA has other priorities at the moment.
Amen, brother. (Or sister)
Just don't call me Surely.
...or anything that sounds female for that matter. I'm tired of people on the phone calling me "ma'am!"
If, that is, the V really is extended. The main question is, does Church Ave have now, or will it have in the near future, the capacity to terminate both the V and G lines. If so, great, the limiting factor is rolling stock and money to pay extra wages. That last part looks like it might be a bit tough.
Church Ave currently does not. However a reconfiguration would allow the turning of enough trains to handle the V & G (20 TPH should cut it).
Unfortunately, the MTA's goal in the past was to avoid using state taxes and keep down the fare. The goal in the future will be to pay back the money borrowed and costs shifted to avoid using state taxes and keep down the fare.
One route could be turned at Church and a second at 18th Ave without any difficulty. However, there isn't enough demand for additional service through the Rutgers St tunnel to justify sending the V to Brooklyn.
Elais
Does that work for your newspaper?
Wow! What will they think of next.
October 1, 1901
It lasted from September 30 to late December, 1990.
The K-cars were used on the Newark run, which gave the a/c systems some good time to work and cool the cars down....and there were very few station stops where the doors were open to let out all that cooled air and make the units start working over again.
The web site host, Robert Schwandl rob@metroplanet.de faces an expensive court battle that he cannot afford and would probably lose in Germany. So he is looking for a new name for the web site and his publishing company. However as he says "another option is that somebody who has some experience in web publishing and FTP etc. takes metropla.net from me and registers it in the USA or somewhere far from the E.U".
New names must be available, should end with .com or .net, and suggest the subject, which is mass transit throughout the world. The word "transit" has unhappy associations with the Berlin Wall, but any other bright ideas would be appreciated.
how's about metrosucks.com? would they still sue?
oh crap, are we still allowed to say Metrocard? And what about the M in MTA?
Only if they have an URL containing the letters "metro" in that order. For availability one can check at www.register.com.
If this is really happening, they are just trying to bully metropla.net out of their domain name.
takes metropla.net from me and registers it in the USA or somewhere far from the E.U".
Arti
There is actually history and law to this. "sucks" websites are protected by the first amendment if they offer legitimate criticism of their target. This is one case (maybe the only case?) where using a trademarked name is not a trademark violation. See, for example, exxonsucks.com.
HOWEVER, THE SITE MUST BE TOTALLY NON-COMMERCIAL. NOT EVEN A BANNER AD TO HELP DEFRAY COSTS.
A PC magazine writes, that a lawyer said, that there is no reason for
this attack.
That's why Robert Schwandl was thinking of looking for someone with experience in web publishing who would be willing to register metropla.net in the USA or elsewhere. Failing that, think of another good name that has not already been taken.
The most notable one is where McDonald's has been trying to own the rights to the "Mc" in any and all advertising, merchandising etc.
Several restaurants in the country where the owners name happened to have "Mc" in it have been sued. In many cases McDonald's won.
I don't understand the problem here at all. .com, .net, and .org are generic domains, meaning that they are not country-specific. No one in any particular country has more right to one of these domains than anyone else.
There are many trademarks containing "Metro" plus it's a generic term. If an ICANN complaint is made against him, we can defend himself on the facts, and probably claim reverse domain hijacking as well.
mplanet.com
metro-planet.com
The word "metro" is far too general to be trademarked.
What really pisses me off, is that every time they release a new domain name (e.g. .biz), ostensibly to increase the number of domain names so that there are enough to go round, I get deluged by emails telling me that my own .co.uk domain name is not enough, and I have to register all the others to prevent cyber-squatting etc. etc. Ho hum, its all a scam to increase the money paid to the domain registers.
I suggest that in the spirit of compromise, Schwandl offers to place a banner ad on his home page for "Metro Group" (never heard of them), and points out to them that .net domain names are not intended for directly commercial activities.
If anybody wants to write an EMail to the METRO, here is a adress:
Steinberg@Metro.de
The lady is waiting for your posts!!!
Other changes caused by METRO AG:
nuernberg-metro.de -> cityverkehr.de
berlin-metro.de -> untergrundebahn.de
Metro...stupid jacka$$es
I don't see where metropla.net has to go to Court at all. The registrar for metropla.net is SCHLUND+PARTNER AG. Schlund subscribes to the Uniform Dispute Resolution Policy. This means that if Metro wants metropla.net they have to file a WIPO dispute for a .net domain. They have to prove that metropla.net (1) domain name is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark or service mark in which the complainant has rights [arguable: does anyone believe that they are going to metro group when they type in "metropla.net"?], (2) does not have a legitimate use for the domain name [they do], AND (3) domain name has been registered and is being used in bad faith. [this means you took in the domain name in the hopes of selling it to the complainant, or preventing them from having it--nonsense!]
The main issue is that they have to answer Metro's complaint--they can do that do letter or email.
HOWEVER, it look like that also have metroplanet.de. They might be vulnerable FOR THAT DOMAIN ONLY under German law.
The point is, that they have problems with the de-adresses.
So if you write a letter to them list only the de-adresses.
Dear David & everyMetrofan,
thanks for posting this good summary at nycsubway.org.
Once again I want to point out that this is not primarily a dispute about domain addresses but about using the term 'metro' for subway or U-Bahn here in Germany. I know that they don't have a right to claim it, neither here nor worldwide. But as I said before, we know more cases of people like me having lost the case for weird reasons, so I cannot take any chances. www.metropla.net is not really different from www.metroplanet.de as long as I'm the registrant of both and I live in this country, even if I registered it in another country, they still could go for me personally because in their opinion I'm violating their rights here in Germany. So forget about the legal issue, let's simply try to find an easy way out of this. Keeping www.metropla.net in the U.S. would mainly help to keep 1000s of links from other sites, but it could be a mirror site, too, William.
Mit freundlichen Gren
Best Wishes
Robert Schwandl
metroPlanet, Berlin
On the other hand if you, with your web site hosting experience, were willing to help or offer suggestions, I feel sure that Robert Schwandl would be very pleased to hear from you. If you are interested I encourage you contact Robert directly either via metroplanet yahoogroups or (better) e-mail him at rob@metroplanet.de. But you had better hurry while it's still possible!
Thanks very much, Paul. I am sure Robert will be pleased to hear from you, and you have already expressed some thoughtful opinions on this site. I don't fully understand the problem by any means either, and I lack your web hosting experience.
Some of these domain games really irritate me. I know of a case where a lady has a small but prominent art gallery, and she had a nice site named [hername]gallery.com. She inadvertently let the name lapse when she had a stroke, and not only was the name grabbed up by a dude overseas who is advertising the domain name for sale, but he took the net, org and biz versions as well, all for sale.
I mean, it's her own name, for Crissakes!
The newsgroup's website is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/urbanrail/
Anyone can apply to join the newsgroup, and receive email messages (individual messages or a daily batch).
I recommend the site to anyone who wants information about urban rail systems world-wide.
The grant is part of the $20 billion appropriation signed by Bush in 2001 and promised to rebuild lower Manhattan. And that is what it is going for.
If you feel you didn't get any say in this, it's your own fault. Everybody got a chance to put in their two cents, and so did you and so did I.
Everyone except Stephen Baumann, of course. They are all out to get him. :0)
It will hinder future funding not replace funding already in progress. In 5 to 10 years, other localities will point to this billion and say that it should now be their turn. There will be merit to that argument.
Take it while you can get it.
I see two problems with the take any money and run approach in this case.
First, capital expenditures should try to fund themselves as much as possible through a combination of decreased operating costs and increased revenues (riders). These projects will do neither and may actually raise operating costs and decrease ridership.
Second, this infusion of money will overwhelm the planning process for projects that might actually pay for themselves. The few sane heads at the MTA/TA will be overwhelmed by this billion dollar binge.
Experience shows that the cities that have done the best in funding, like Chicago and Boston, keep up the pressure and BUILD the projects they're funding in a reasonable time.
To put it another way, if NY turns back this money, I highly doubt it will help other projects at all, it will just kill the ones already funded. And even if your assessment is correct, the die is cast on this one.
You're missing the point. In this case, the money is intended to restore and create facilities which will allow private enterprise to attract residents and workers back into lower Manhattan. It is a prerequisite for rebuilding the WTC and should be done now, while the site is mostly an open construction pit. The Fulton Transit Center will displace a few marginal businesses whose loss, overall, will be of no concern and whose owners will have been compensated anyway.
Remember your argument about rebuilding the IRT, that full advantage was not taken of its open status? Well, that argument applies here too.
The article confirmed the commitment for the lower Manhattan hub. We need to get started on it ASAP.
There is always need to stop and think, even in war.
Consider one consequence of the haste in restoring 1/9 service in the wake of 9/11. They took out the 1918 plans and essentially rebuilt the line as was, without any thinking. Their only modification was to install a full crossover south of Rector St instead of a trailing point switch.
Consider the opportunity lost. One oversight with the 1918 design is the lack of layover tracks. Placing 1 or 2 layover tracks within the vicinity of Cortlandt St would have been easy because the entire site was open. It might have taken a couple of months to modify the 1918 box design and thus slightly delayed the reopening.
Haste makes waste.
Could it be that any deviation beyond the original "box" might interfere with the site's eventual development? Note that the PATH station is right on the footprint of the original station and, in any event, is temporary.
There was a fairly early concensus that Greenwich Street would be remapped. That should have set off alarm bells that the IRT could break out of the box.
There I agree with you. A few more months and some changes could have been made (and the Rector street Station could havebeen rebuilt to ADA compliance).
Your other points are good.
However, the Fulton Street Transit Center and new PATH terminal are not products of haste. They are products of an extensive planning process. The Fulton terminal is well-cobceived and really should have been done 20 years ago. Better late than never.
Most of the area east of the 1/9 tracks, between Vesey and Liberty, is just as available for layover tracks now as it was in March 2002. There is no significant additional cost in doing such a project now.
Putting layover tracks west of the 1/9 would have been expensive then and would be expensive now - they'd be suspended 30 feet in the air over the PATH station.
I suspect the reason NYCT hasn't considered this project is that they don't think it's particularly useful.
It is one of the reasons touted by the TA for replacing the South Ferry loop with a 2-track terminal for $400 million.
The "working group" found ways to squander the money and recommended them to the Transportation Secretary Mineta.
Understood, but I don't see that most of it is being put to good use in the provision of better subway service.
The money authorized by Mineta yesterday was never intended to expand subway service. It is part of a $20 billion appropriation to rebuild lower Manhattan. If New York had decided to use it to build the Second Av Subway, or a new subway in Queens, the feds would have objected on the grounds that it is not related to 9/11's destruction of the WTC.
The new PATH terminal, the Fulton Street Transit Center and the South Ferry Terminal are all acceptable projects because they are directly related to 9/11. The IRT line was damaged in the attack, and the reconstruction of any of its elements is considered fair game by the federal government. The pot of money it comes from cannot be used outside of this area. Period.
I sympathize with your viewpoint to some degree but the appropriation we are talking about in this thread could not be used to pay for the projects that you want.
South Ferry was NOT damaged on 9/11 - it does not NEED to be reconstructed. I'll give you lengthening the platform, but it does not need to be an island platform with two tracks ending in bumping blocks and a crossover some 300 feet out from the end of the platform. If I get the chance later, I'll post about last night's meeting.
That is not the consensus of most subway passengers, their elected officials, or within the MTA. It is the consensus of a few railbuffs.
"I'll give you lengthening the platform, but it does not need to be an island platform with two tracks ending in bumping blocks and a crossover some 300 feet out from the end of the platform."
OK. In which case you went to the meeting (good for you!) and told the MTA there was a better way to improve the station than the option they want to pursue.
For those unfamiliar with the area, the original exit from the South Ferry station was in the middle of the platform and exits to street level within the footprint of the new Terminal Building. If you look at the link above, this would be just above the black "point" within the Terminal footprint. The current "temporary" exit is in almost the same position as the #1 exit from the proposed station. (so much for being closer - at the most, we're talking 10 to 15 feet difference). For the sake of completeness, the current entrance to Whitehall station is midway between the blue circled 1 and the south end of the N/R platform on the Plaza side of Whitehall St.
While I was looking at the boards, Councilman Michael McMahon (D-North Shore) arrived with two of his people. After handshakes with those they knew, they began examining the boards and were unable to pick out the one they were favoring. Seizing the opportunity, I introduced myself as a resident of his district (true) and a NYCT Train Operator that had formerly worked on the 1/9 (true) that had serious doubts about the feasibility of the 'favored' proposal (also true). I showed him the 'favored' proposal and explained my reasons for disliking it - the crossover switch 300' or so beyond the end of the station (as opposed to right outside the station limits) and its concomitant Rule Book speed limit of 10 mph (no faster than the current approach to South Ferry); the lack of tail tracks beyond the south end of the station, which will necessitate timers in the station, slowing down the approach even more; and, the fact that there is no terminal set up in this manner that sees more TPH than the current South Ferry station sees, which implies that the new station would see a service decrease.
I then showed him my preference - extending the current station to the rear and explained why I liked this one - it maintains the connection between East and West side IRT routes; no time spent waiting for another train to get out of the way; and the fact that of the two other terminals that see a higher TPH, one is a loop and the other has approx. 600' of tail track (FWIW, the other thru-station with gap fillers also sees a higher TPH than South Ferry, so gap fillers mustn't take to long to work). While we were talking, we were joined by Congressman Vito Fossella (R-SI), who asked for a repeat of prior statements.
When the meeting proper commenced, Messers. Sussman and Wheeler from the MTA ran through the talking points about the new station, with the boards being shown on a projector screen (the Windows notebook running it crashed twice). They even ran the video (which can be found at the planning site) of a 1 train entering South Ferry. In order to prove the point of how slow it is, they paused the video twice. the floor was then opened to the speakers.
Vito Fossella - Congratulated everyone on getting the money; applauded plan; questioned the possibility of returning 5 service to South Ferry, using the current 1/9 platform once they have left for the new station.
Michael McMahon - Repeat performance of Mr Fossella; did question time lost by crossing trains (he was listening). {opinion}I'm not sure he is fully behind this, but probably sees it as better than no improvement at all. {/opinion}
Borough Pres. Molinaro - More congrats and 'about time's. Alas, he reminds me to much of some of my family members - I can't understand half of what he says.
A rep from State Senator Lachman with a prepared statement.
Mr X - This guy gets his jollies from hounding Mr. Sussman at these meetings. Tonight, though, he actually put forth the proposition of extending the 1 to Staten Island and then on into Brooklyn. It's the first time in years that he's come up with an idea.
Ferry Rider's Committee - Wanted to know how this was going to fit into the new Ferry Terminal, the design for which took into account the location of the 'original' exit from South Ferry. Was afraid that this new station exit would be an after-thought in an already designed area.
An unaffiliated man who raised some of the same points that have been raised on SubTalk - loops are better as terminals, crossovers need to be close to the station, loading statistics, etc.
Yours truly - Basically gave the same spiel that McMahon and Fossella already heard. Did mention that rush-hour 5 service doesn't terminate at Bowling Green and so was unlikely to be sent to South Ferry when it would most be needed. Also questioned the idea of 5 using the the current 1 platform - if it's no good for us now with the 1, why would it be OK for the 5? While I was speaking, Mr Sussman was busy writing, while his eyes were popping out of his head - I don't think he actually expected facts and quotes on Operating Procedures.
Newkirk Plaza David - Went on about signs and bad wording thereof, but nothing constructive to say about the topic at hand.
------- End of Meeting Report ------
These articles are from today's news:
http://www.silive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/107054921941840.xml
Under the plan, South Ferry's current single-track, five-car subway terminal will be expanded into a three-track, two-platform terminal capable of accommodating a 10-car, full-length train.
The MTA is reviewing a request by Fossella to restore passenger service from South Ferry to the nearby Bowling Green subway station, the current terminus of the Lexington Avenue subway lines, also heavily used by Island commuters in Manhattan.
Some city officials initially opposed including South Ferry in the repair project, arguing it was not directly related to Sept. 11 and that all federal transit aid should be reserved for repairing the damage caused by the terrorist attack.
http://www.silive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/107054923041840.xml
Rather than the "sharp curvature [that] slows train operation and generates excessive noise" and the "required mechanical gapfillers prone to breakdowns" on the edge of the platform, the new terminal would be a straight, single platform, serving two tracks with three entrances and handicap accessibility. The existing loop track will be retained for storage purposes.
The renovated South Ferry station would have underground access for riders to the N/R subway line and would permit an additional five subway trains to pass through per hour, decreasing commuters' travel time and making the station more efficient, said Wheeler.
http://www.dot.gov/affairs/fta5103.htm
* A $400 million grant for the South Ferry Subway Terminalreplacement of the functionally obsolete station adjacent to and under Battery Park. The project will transform the single track, five-car station that serves the 1 and 9 subway lines with a three-track, 10-car, stub end two-platform terminal, and will be located immediately adjacent to renovated Staten Island ferry.
Amazing, how overnight the new station has grown a second platform and a third track? Or will NYCT build one thing with funds granted for something else?
ROFL
You accomplished something here. How much of that will translate into changes in the plan? I don't know. But look who's ear you caught.
Sussman was taking careful notes. What you (and others) said will be reviewed.
Good job!
It would appear that the Feds agreed to fund a 3-track 2-platform terminal. The TA says it wants to build a 2-track 1-platform terminal and has presented this only this option on its website. My guess is that the TA will bow to the overwhelming weight of $400 million in hand and switch plans quicker than a fast talker can say "thank you".
How did the Feds get the idea of a 3-track 2-platform terminal? Did they think it up? Did the TA tell them that is what they wanted and tell the public something else? What's the point of trying to evaluate a plan (more of a concept on the MTA website), if the whole thing was a bait and switch sham from the beginning?
Sussman was taking careful notes. What you (and others) said will be reviewed.
A major problem with these public meetings is that the project's technical staff is not present. They are insulated by non-technical "community outreach" people like Mr. Sussman, who try to act as impeadance transformers. This presents two problems.
First, the public is denied first hand reasons behind design decisions, that only the technical people can answer. This makes such meetings far less informative and useful. It also eliminates the possibility of a more collegial, private exchange of ideas. The only way to get information is through the "community outreach" gatekeepers through a formal statement, which is a far more adversarial atmosphere.
Second, the project's technical staff is equally isolated from what the public wants. Technical decisions are based on juggling many options and weighing many priorities. Subjecting the technical staff to a half dozen public meetings, even if they are only lurkers, should give them a better handle on which priorities are really important.
Fair enough. I agree. However, do not underestimate what Sussman is able to do. For one thing, we don't know his educational background. For another, his correspondence to me conveys a sense that he does understand the issues fairly well, pays attention to what he hears and strives to return an intelligent answer to a question. And he and I have corresponded for a long time.
My comments were not directed towards Mr. Sussman personally, but rather to the limitations of "community relations". I would omit the words "like Mr. Sussman" to make that clearer in my previous post.
Trying to get information via the "community relations" route is like trying to carry out a substantive conversation through a non-simultaneous translator. It's time consuming and frustrating for all parties. Clearly, there is a need for a gatekeeping function but a rare public meeting should not be one.
I agree with your logic here.
Thanks also for your excellent reporting.
The new South Ferry Terminal will be built with sufficient overrun track south of the platform to allow trains to safely enter at higher speeds.
The crossover tracks north of the station will utilize state-of-the-art switching technology
The overall design of the station will provide capacity for up to 24 trains per hour.
Of course, they can claim anything they want on a poster.
Meaning that they have addressed the issue of the stub terminal.
"Of course, they can claim anything they want on a poster."
And if the overrun track is in the design, their 24 train per hour claim is very reasonable. So long as they build it this way, 24 trains per hour is what you'll get.
The TA knows how to build terminals with overrun (tail) tracks that have only half the claimed 24 tph capacity. Parsons Jamaica Center being the example.
Meaning that they have addressed the issue of the stub terminal.
"Of course, they can claim anything they want on a poster."
And if the overrun track is in the design, their 24 train per hour claim is very reasonable. So long as they build it this way, 24 trains per hour is what you'll get.
However, the South Ferry station has handled 28 trains per hour in the past.
It looks like the proposal for South Ferry will have a capacity of about 12 tph. That would force a 40% reduction in (maximal) rush hour service, on a line that until recently ran 12 tph on weekends (it's been since bumped down to 10 tph). Remind me to either move out of the neighborhood or arrange to never have to travel by the time this happens, since I won't be able to fit on the trains around here.
Nobody has ever answered: even if it's 12 tph (which I personally doubt), why can't they run 12 tph into the stub terminal and 12 tph around the loop, skipping S Ferry?
At least in theory (I don't know if it's actually carried out), terminating 5 trains are fumigated at Bowling Green. City Hall is a special case.
How many tph do you think it should support?
N Broadway
But you have some good thoughts there.
Why should New York now ask for LESS from the federal government (or the state, for that matter)? It's just a matter of being as brassy as always, and making sure the MTA returns to the NYC population in proportion to our taxes, Fulton St or no Fulton St. We should not act as if our "quota" was used up by a two tourist-centered subway stations.
See the problem? Even if this is a true gift, undoing the damage is a major expense. Most likely, 1/9 riders will be left to suffer with their service reductions for the rest of eternity.
The question then set up a situation where a train has been outside for five stations; what should the t/o do?
I don't recall what choices A and C were, but I believe that choice B was "turn off the lights" and choice D was "operate the momentary switch to turn off the lights".
The answer key shows that choice A is correct.
Can anyone remember what choice A was, and more fully explain the question and the intended answer?
(This was one of two that I got wrong, but I remember feeling unsure about this one as I took the test. I reread it several times, but still didn't quite get it.)
http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/jfk_broch1.html
I presume this assumes that you time your arrival at Jamaica to catch a Ronkonkoma train.
Oh well. Thats another train to ride the next time that I come to the city.
But it lloks like fares are only collected at Jamaica and Howard Beach, regardless of which way you pass through the turnstyle.
I'll bet you'll pay to get on at Jamaica and Off at Howard Beach, if you tried to use the train for that purpose.
Elias
That is the plan. But with that $40 monthly pass it'll be quite valuable. How long does it take now to get from Howard Beach to Jamaica via mass transit? This will make it a 26 minute ride with one transfer.
CG
It is not clear whether the Q10 and other bus lines will continue to serve all the terminals or if they will just stop at either Federal Circle or the Lefferts Blvd station (where there will apparently be a passenger drop off area as well).
CG
In fact, the Q10 generally runs more frequently than the shuttle ever did and -- from my observation only -- is a higher quality and cleaner vehicle. "A" service from Howard Beach or Lefferts is at the same interval during most parts of the day.
CG
CG
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Aren't both airports run by the PA? Am I missing something?
It's cheaper to get a ticket from Penn to North Elizabeth and get off at the airport station, then buy a $5 mono-d'oh pass in the station.
I was referring more to the inconsistent means accepted of payment at what appears to be similarly situated venues (ie PA-owned Airports).
Additionally, there is incentive to use JFK over EWR when considering how to arrive at the Airtrain (ie off-peak discounts on LIRR vs. surcharges on NJT out of NYP).
My underlying point being that I would have thought there be more equality within the Airport systems themselves and, in addition, the systems used to get to the Airport, while not expected to be equal in the absolute (as I recognize they are separately maintain systems), may cause a knowledgable traveler to consider one option (JFK) more favorable over another (EWR).
Just another tourist/busniessman tax as I see it? However, it affects regular NY'ers just the same.
1) said route always runs express.
2) but if something affects the (W) at Onion Square, then ought not the (RR) or the (Q) and (N) trains also be affected.
Or has WCBS have no clue when Todd is not around.
Elias
Then why wasn't the (RR) skipping 49th Street.
Could be a break in the cross over.
But then why announce it at Onion Square instead of at Times Square?
Elias
David
Chuck Greene
Since I am in North Dakota, and wasnt planing on visiting NYC this weekend, I'll not call the number for you. My guess is unless the lines are swamped Friday Evening, they will find out about Saturday Morning on Saturday Morning.
We have some light snow now, with about three inches expected in some parts of the state today, but clearing on the weekend, which is good, because we have our big open house on Saturday.
Thanks to C-Division for keeping me on the MOD mailing list. I will make another ride when all of the planets and R-9s come into proper conjunction.
Elias
Elias, that is called the Branford eclipse. LOL
--Mark
Also: Someone said that if you put your finger in the crack between the doors on an R142/143, you'd get pinched when the doors opened. How?
That distinct click is the sound of the doors locking. Other trains have different types of locks.
"Also: Someone said that if you put your finger in the crack between the doors on an R142/143, you'd get pinched when the doors opened. How?"
Before the doors open the lock has to disengage. The doors have to move forward for this to happen. I have had my fingers pinched a number of times because I keep forgetting about this.
I don't really know - maybe it is an indication of masochistic tendencies???
"Doctor, it hurts every time I do *this*."
"Well, then, stop doing that."
Mark
1. "The Grand Tour": Covering every IRT ML station and route.
2. 7 only: covering only the IRT Flushing/Queensboro division only. Includes layover and tour of Corona.
3. BMT Southern Division
4. BMT Eastern Division
This HAS been done, and probably STILL CAN BE ARRANGED, I do not know what prices you have in mind, but think in excess of $2000 (for a private car on scheduled train) to 20-50,000 for a redbird excursion train.
Elias
I was on the ERA charter last December and the MOD trips are basically charters.
While these are non-profit organizations, I don't know if the TA can or would charter to a private individual or a profit making company to run trains through the system.
Also when speaking to an ERA official last year, he said that the TA was quoting a price of $ 11,000 for the ERA Redbird trip. While the final number may have been lower, its still pretty pricey for a birthday party or another celebration. Might be a good revenue raiser but its only for the rich.
--Mark
I don't understand why they're charging so much. Technically all you should have to pay is a few for the rental of the car, and maybe a compensation fee for the service. MAYBE the day's salary for the train crew. There's no way that adds up to thousands of $$$$, unless there really is THAT MUCH demand for rentals.
Insurance? Bull. Regular subway riders don't pay insurance.
If I recall correctly, MTA is self-insured. However, a charter trip with out of service or antique equipment might imply a slightly higher risk (???) and justify collecting an additional premium from customers.
Does anyone know how riders on MOD museum trips are covered should there be a collision or other problem, causing injuries, during the trip? Does the MOD have to put up a bond or does the TA provide its own coverage?
full R36 train: $1000 1st hour, $500 per subsequent hour
R33 Single (one car only): $500 first hour, $275 per subsequent hour
Prices including up to 10 guests, food and beverages. Each additional guest $60, under 17 $30.
Andy
Other comments range from pathetic current terminal, a minute delay results in 20 minute to 1 hour loss of time due to the missed ferry connection, to the East side is off limits to Staten Islanders and want the #5 line to be included in the terminal. But you cant have you cake and eat it too. When I was the last speaker for the evening, I gave my usual points to Mr. Sussman and company about the poster that Mr. X mentioned earlier, why have incorrect travel directions, but not until I was on the S79 bus over the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge, heading towards Brooklyn, did I realize that I missed a golden opportunity to challenge the MTA on money wasted to replace a never, ever to be used escalator at Bowling Green station. Still the hearing was a feel good thing for me that as long as the MTA does not squander on the their share of the Federal money earmarked for Lower Manhattan; the SF project, as well as the Fulton St complex, will be a reality in 2007.
That's great. Thank you very much for getting involved.
Was anything at all presented by MTA regarding station capacity and crossovers? I'm glad that that issue was mentioned by speakers. Was there any response?
But the press was taking notes on my allegations too, and local Staten Island media was there too.
And you can alwayus follow up with a letter.
I used only 2 minutes out of 3 during Community Board 9's meeting on AirTrain when the project was up for consideration. I did that on purpose, because other speakers preceding me were going beyond 3 minutes consistently and the audience was getting annoyed. But what I said completely wrecked the airlines' presentation and their lobbyist came up to me outside the hearing room, yelled at me at the top of his voice and wanted desperately to slug me.
NY POL SLUGS DOCTOR AT AIRTRAIN HEARING.
It's a good thing you survived it.
The board vote to approve AirTrain was lopsided. It wasn't even close.
Bob Diamond's trolley project could have helped.
http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/AIRT-0117_JFK.pdf
Of interest.
There will be three "branches".
1) Jamaica - counter clockwise around the terminal loop - Jamaica
2) Howard Beach - counter clockwise - Howard Beach
3) clockwise around the loop.
I think this is similar to San Francisco's new airport train.
Length of trip from Jamaica or Howard Beach to Terminal 1 -- 8 minutes.
CG
Go there for discussion:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=615124
Also, the map shows a strange 'loop' that the East Side IRT trains supposedly run on at Hoyt St, instead of the earlier [printed] version I have, which used a half-black-dot, consistant with the rest of the Brooklyn IRT. I wish the MTA would just settle on a single method for showing these things. A half-dot is much better than drawing strange loop-de-loops all over the place.
The M runs much later than until just 5:45.
Could the fare be reduced if local stations were built on the line? This way, the fare hit could be distributed among a number of stations and people living in Jamaica and points south who don't have rapid transit service would now have a rail link to the LIRR and the J/Z/E trains, and the F train too if they want to walk up to Hillside Avenue.
CG
It had nothing to do with that. It was strictly a price tag issue, nothing more.
I agree that communities like East Elmhurst need and want more subway service, but that's a separate issue.
It is possible that MTA could give the PA money to build an intermediate station for AirTrain on the Jamaica leg, but that would have to pass muster first with the MTA and PA legal departments, who would no doubt check with the FAA's counsel to see if the FAA would oppose it.
I wonder if the idea that there is no direct service is what lets them get under the radar screen of not providing transit services.
CG
Rockaway Boulevard, OTOH -- with twice as much A service.
Or Euclid, with the C as well.
The city sold the PA the VanWyck median for inclusion within the airport, as part of the AirTrain deal. Any station on VanWyck would be within the airport boundaries.
I don't know those areas well enough, though, to say whether they aren't already filled with JFK employees.
CG
Does this map partially answer your question?
The map does not answer the question posed.
With a station, higher income airport employees might be drawn to live there by an easier commute. The question then becomes -- would they? One interesting note is that I don't think that the Van Wyck lies underneath any of the approach or take-off patterns for JFK -- so airplane noise might not be as much of a hindrance to improving the neighborhood as one would other wise think.
On this subject, I don't have enough knowledge to do anything other than speculate, though. (Hold your tongue Bayside Boy. Zip it.)
CG
Kennedy Airport has active runways serving the following headings: 310-130 (2 parallel runwaysat either end of the airport) and one runway at 220-040. There is another runway, but I don't recall its orientation. Usually one runway is designated for landing, and its parallel twin for takeoffs. Landings involve engines at idling or a low setting, so noise is not a major factor; obviously the takeoff pattern is the major factor.
If takeoffs are to the northwest, using the 310 heading,, Ozone Park and Jamaica can be impacted. If to the Southeast, Jamaica Bay gets the noise.
(Hold your tongue Bayside Boy. Zip it.)
Zip itty zooda, zppideday...
Kew Gardens traditionally has been home to a large number of airline employees. I don't know about JFK ground employees, but somehow the area along the Van Wyck seems a bit downscale to attract any but those in the lowest-paid categories.
In case anyone's interested, there's a rather amusing Newark-vs.-JFK thread now in progress at Airliners.net. It has rapidly turned into a New York-vs.-New Jersey flame war, or something close to it.
I think not. There is much more to revitalizing a neighborhood than giving it some better transportation. Mostly in needs new housing stock. Nobody who can afford better is going to buy (or rent) a run down wood fram house built at the beginning of the last century.
This neighborhood *does* have an advantage that few of the buildings are of the "old-law" style tennament buildings. All of the properties there seem to me (if I am thinking of them correctly) are within the purchase means of middle class people, who could knock them down and build something decent on the land.
Elias
AirTrain cannot be marketed toward local traffic because it's being funded through fees paid by air travelers. There's no choice or intent involved.
As far as the "Van Wyck Subway" is concerned, it was never a serious proposal even during the heyday of planning back in the 1960's.
This southeast turnout is visible in Map Quest aerial photos of Woodhaven Junction. It looks difficult to access now, as it seems to be a parking lot for NYC school buses. There are images of Woodhaven Junction on both Kevin Walsh's Forgotten NY and Tom Scannello's sites.
See also Bob Andersen's and Art Huneke's LIRR sites :
www.rapidtransit.net/index.html
Then click on "links" at upper right, and enjoy !
See also Joe Brennan's "abandoned stations" site.
Does anyone know when OZONE tower which was south of the Woodhaven Station on the Rockaway branch was torn down?
The underground station is not visable from the side walk. On the sidewalk are emergency exits to the platform. The original stairways to the platforms were long since sealed off.
This is a photo of Woodhaven Station from the book:
Compare that to my photos I took about 10 years ago:
What fate did it get? Except for the few stations north of Liberty Avenue that didn't get enough usage in it's later years plus one station South of Liberty (The Raunt) it was completely revitalized by the "A" Train. I am sure ridership increased as a subway, train frequency also increased, while fares went down. Although I'm not positive I'm sure the bulk of the ridership was in the Rockaways, and not the discontinued part. The bridge destroyed by fire was rebuilt by the city. As far as I'm concerned the fate the Rockaway Branch experienced was positive to say the least.
For those who might want to see it this way:
The NYPL call # for it is IRH 95-975.
You also need to have a NYPL Access card to do this, I beleive it requires that you live, work, go to school, or own property in New York.
Sort of unfair. From what I gather, Access Cards are not ordinary library cards, but are used to get access to noncirculating research materials. Some of these materials might not be located anywhere except in the NYPL. Requiring New York residency can cut off access for researchers who happen to live elsewhere ... unless, of course, the NYPL operates under the same assumption as the New York Times, namely that anyone who lives outside the city is a three-toothed hillbilly with a gun rack in his pickup and married to his 13-year-old cousin.
Back on topic about the book: Thats the only place I know of that has the book. I didn't see any Nassau County Library(East Meadow in particular, since I live there) have a copy of it, and usually you can find anything somewhere in Nassau County.
It took about 25 minutes for them to find the book, but it's definatly worth it, as the only cost your going to have is the cost to get there, as the access card and using the book is free.
thought i would pass this along
lot of fun
paul
p.s. look at things like google(beta)
web.archive.org
Isn't it weird?
No B train at Pacific St.
IMO, very minor quibbles. This is a track map, not a route map.
Next stop on the Sea Beach, Coney Island. OOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPSSSSSS!!!!
Ok, not yet.
This lead me to a thought.
Some years ago, reports came that said that the doors would act like elevator doors. But obviously, this is not the case.
Then again, there are elevators whose doors won't re-open even if you stick your whole body in the path of the doors.
It's the elevator at the 61st Street-Woodside station, which connects the subway mezzanine, the street, and Platform A of the LIRR's Woodside station.
Shouldn't the sensors work like most elevators do; when you put something in the doors' path, the doors would open, even when the doors are nowhere near such obstruction?
Those are optical sensors. The sensors in the subway cars are in the rubber gaskets on the doors meaning they have to come in contact with the object before they will reopen.
In the former case, optical obstruction detection is required
by NYC elevator code. TA elevators may actually be exempt from
the code, but this sounds like a defect that should be reported
to the appropriate structures department whose phone number
is posted on the elevator control room. OTOH, elevators are
permitted to have a "nudge" mode where, if an obstruction is
sensed continuously for more than 30 seconds, the elevator
concludes that the sensor is defective and closes the doors.
What does this woman need? A hammer to hit her on the head when she darts in total disregard for her safety?
:0)
Her lawyer will probably allege that the safety procedures in place (bells, crossing gates, presumably honking trains) were inadequate to protect the woman.
What do you think went through the engineer's mind when he saw her?
"Where's the compassion for the girl."
The article says she escaped with basically a few scratches and maybe a broken leg. She's lucky to be alive, and she's in one piece.
"nuff said.
That was pretty nasty, even for a joke...
She's so ugly, they won't let her travel to London because her face would stop Big Ben.
Seriously, though, I still can't figure out the big flap a couple of years ago when Rosie admitted that she chewed the carpet. Christ, how could anyone not have figured it out long before then??
VC Madman
VC Madman
You are correct. Keep in mind she was only 39 years old. Only a child.
Somehow I don't think that would make any difference... there obviously isn't anything in that bump on her shoulders that would be affected :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Unfortunately, the cops will probably have pity on her and not trouble her with one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-litres043569863dec04,0,3180290.story?coll=ny-linews-headlines
Of course, she's not going to sit down and write one, is she?
:0)
The LIRR should have made their crossing gates ADA compliant.
Not with the "frequent" headways on the Ronkonkoma Line.
Bill "Newkirk"
She STOPped, and then walked across while LOOKing at a supermarket tabloid and LISTENing to her Walkman.
Thanks,
Julian
How soon we forget
Before:
Set A: 01-02-03-04-05 (5 cars)
Set B: 06-07-08-09-10 (5 cars)
Set C: 11-12-13-14-15 (5 cars)
During (1):
Set A: 01-02-03-04 05 (4+1 cars)
Set B: 06-07-08 09-10 (3+2 cars)
During (2):
Set A: 01-02-03-04 09-10 (4+2 cars)
Set B: 06-07-08 05 (3+1 cars)
After:
Set A: 01-02-03-04-09-10 (6 cars)
Set B: 06-07-08-05 (4 cars)
Then, to make an 11-car train, just add another 5-car set.
Sets A & C: 01-02-03-04-09-10+11-12-13-14-15 (11 cars)
Connections: +: coulper -: link bar.
They just leave the 4-car set sitting in the yard while the 6-car set goes on the road.
Or they could use it on the BG-SF shuttle, or any of the other short IRT shuttles in the system.
Personally, I think the (7) could use 22-car sets.
But that's just me. ;-)
But why don't you want the R142s on the 7? Wouldn't you want to record all those snazzy announcements or are you just afraid of Queens or afraid that someone is going to throw your backpack off the train?
The (1)/(9)!
Since the R142s seem to not be vandal resistant, and the (1) train is one of the most vandalised lines in the system...
You see the connection.
Julian
P.S.
I've seen people doing scratchitti on the (1) in BROAD DAYLIGHT, in THE CONDUCTOR'S CAR! Not little scratchitti, BIG scratchitti. It really pissed me off. They were using keys to scratch the walls, and a razor to scratch the windows.
You witnessed people vandalizing the trains?
In the conductor's car?
AND YOU DIDN'T REPORT THEM TO THE CONDUCTOR?????????????
In this pic, why is the straight air and brake pipe reading the same pressure? Is this train undergoing testing? What would cause this?
Maybe the Brake Cylinder is cut-out.
They're not. The red needle is showing a little more than 30 pounds, while the black one is showing a little less than 30 pounds.
As for the reason they're like that, I'm not sure.
Hint: The train is completely in the station and its doors are open.
If not, then it's defintely on the Broadway BMT.
Peace,
ANDEE
So Jareid, you have to stay out of the Broadway line because I am 2 for 2 now. The Mick needed 54 more. Very nice pictures.
No, actually the slants run up and down the whole line. Nut just at Canal Street.
: )
Not any more, now that the redbirds are retired.
What a Drag
Posted on:12/4/03 4:15:09 PM
Due to police activity at 135th Street, northbound B and C trains are running express from 59th Street to 145th Street.
10:40 a.m.: leave GCS line and proceed via the Lex line to Livonia Yard.
Via the Lex line to 138/3rd, then via Track M to 177th Street and lunch.
After lunch, continue north to Westchester Yard.
Loop the yard and continue north via Track 3 to Pelham Bay Park.
South via Track M to 138/3rd, then via Lex to 86th Street, and turn.
Proceed north to Dyre Avenue (note: if GO 1007-03 is NOT working, the train MAY operate via Track Y-3 in both directions).
South via Lex line to Brooklyn Bridge, via loop to Track 4, and end.
On Westchester Ave heading towards Castle Hill: McDonalds, KFC, Baskin Robbins/Dunkin Donuts, Dominos Pizza.
Walk up Metropolitan Ave, towards oval: Burger King, Macy's for shopping only, other places
Take the 6 train one stop to Castle Hill Ave for Wendy's and another McDonalds. Continue of 6 to Westchester Square for White Castle across East Tremont.
10:40 a.m.: leave GCS line and proceed via the Lex line to Flatbush Avenue.
Via 7th Avenue line to 14th Street and turn.
Proceed to South Ferry and loop north to 242nd Street and lunch.
Train lays up in 240th Yard or south of 242nd Street.
Via Track M to south of 103rd Street, then into 96th Street and turn.
North to 148th Street Yard Drill Track.
Proceed to 135th Street and turn.
Proceed north to 149/GC and turn.
Proceed south to 138/GC and turn.
Proceed north to Woodlawn.
Proceed via Track M from south of Woodlawn to south of 138/GC.
Via the Lex line to Brooklyn Bridge, loop to Track 4, and end.
Snow fears Tuna......... brah.
HO-HO-HO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gettin' my $40 worth *RIGHT* there....
This will be my first MOD appearance, btw.
Being that I was introduced to the subways when the r26/28/29
were Redbirds on the 1, this will be a VERY sentimental trip
back in time 4 meh...
So, I'm more interested in the overall picture.. the stations, the surroundings,.. not JUST the window!!
Cheers & you can have the window hands-down!
Does this mean the whole myth of "No Redbirds north of 103st
because of low clearance overhead" was all just a chewbaca pack of gagga?
WHEN was the last time a Redbird was *AT* 242-VCP, anyhow??
That's unlikely to be it though, Occam's Razor applies.
The Linden Shop connection is another possibility, even less likely.
All just outside station opposite the Madman's park (tee hee MDT): Burger King, Subway, Baskin Robbins/Dunkin Donuts, a pizzeria and a couple of Chinese restaurants.
It got hungry and ate it for unch :)
If you are going, enjoy.
On the BMT trips after the holidays, I may not be able to make it this Sunday. I am thinking about Saturday.
Mapwrap
In the article there is only this brief mention of Mapwrap:
"Mapwrap"(http://forestsaver.com), made from surplus New York City subway maps-let your package be your guide-can be found at House of Cards."
That sounds like a good idea...
--Mark
See Rich Galianos weather page for his experiences with the NOAA predicting ocean storms. If the evening shift doesnt change what the afternoon guy predicted, its going to be horrible!
Big question though for the extended forecast is where the high in Canada goes as the lows move out. If it stands firm, most of the action will be Jersey shore and south ... but if it moves, well then. Could be real - that's what I meant - that's the missing piece at the moment ... meanwhile, I'll be raising a beer at the "millibar." Heh.
(emphasis on "while work is IN session")
The streetcars and trolleys ran on the upper level after the bridge opened in 1909 (Dec 31).
At the lower ends of the approach spans, the vertical clearance drops and the platforms do not fit, so there will always be about 6 weekends of GO's on each side of the bridge every two years during the biennial inspections.
I'm new to the message board, and I'm hoping to pick the brains of some of the subway experts on here. I was wondering if anyone remembers a piece of "animated" artwork that (I think) was in the subway tunnel between DeKalb Avenue and the Manhattan Bridge on the B line. It was there when I first moved to NYC back in the early 1980s, but you can't see it anymore. It operated using the same idea as a flip book or a zoetrope--a series of individual, backlit panels with simple colored designs on them that became "animated" as the train cars moved past them, appearing in the breaks in the subway tunnel's walls. Does this sound familiar to anyone out there? I used to see it when I was standing up on the ride into Manhattan in the mornings, out of the right-hand-side windows. Then they did some renovations in the tunnels and I couldn't see it anymore.
I've done quite a few searches on the web looking for any mention of it, with no luck. If anyone remembers this artwork, I'd appreciate it if you would let me know what you remember about it (like an artist's name or the name of the artwork itself), if you've seen it mentioned on any other web sites, or if you've ever seen photos of it anyplace. Any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated, since it drives me crazy when I can't find stuff on the web...I figure *everything* is out there somewhere if you just know how to phrase your search correctly, but I'm at my wit's end on this one. Thanks in advance for your help with this!
Joe Brennan's page on the Myrtle Avenue station
Masstransiscope
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There was a thread here about a year ago. If you plow through it you'll find some references to other "masstransiscopic" installations as well as the unlikelihood of the MTA revitalizing it.
Myrtle Ave
You can click on the scrolling link
The QUERTY keyboard format continued into the computer age, and some people continue the older way of typing "1" using either method above.
In 1874, Christopher Latham Sholes invented the first commercial typewriter. It was in the then-unknown QWERTY format, It had no 1 key, and no SHIFT key. It could only type upper-case letters. Later on, the SHIFT key came into use, and later still, the 1 key came into play. I don't have an exact year when the 1 key became commercially available, but I do know that it wasn't for a while. I remember in high school (back in 1995) I was in a typing class which used these old Tandy computers, and the books we used contained such keystroke sequences as ['][bksp][.] to get "!" and type "l" for "1," so it's been a Looooooooooooooooooooooooooong time.
Interesting typewriter tidbit: the word "typewriter" is spelled using only letters in the QWERTY row of the keyboard.
All this computer hacking is making me thirsty, maybe I'll just order a TAB.
My nominations:
SEPTA: Villanova and Stadium stations on the 100
11th and 13th st on the MFSE [caveat: the eastbound platform
at 13th st was extended almost to 12th st in the 70's]
WMATA : Gallery Place and Metro Center on the Red Line. I think is
only a 8 car train length between stations.
CTA : I have no idea, but I think some of the Loop's stations are
close together.
According to me, the four "free bridges" should be closed to automobiles (so they would *have* to use the tunnels, and would have to pay rather steep rush hour tolls.)
The Brooklyn Bridge I would make exclusively Bus, LRV and Pedesterian.
The Manhattan and Williamsburg would be Taxi and Bus only during rush hours, and available for trucks at other hours.
The Queensboro would get LRV lanes and would be bus and truck traffic only.
The Lincoln Tunnel presents another interesting issue. I would make all 6 lanes inbound only, and exclusively for the use of busses in the morning rush, say from 0500 to 1000 hours. Make it exclusively outbound from 1600 to 2100 hours. Close 9th, 10th and 11th avenues between the tunnel and the PABT during these hours as well.
Elias
My scenerio posits that the LRVs would be free. They would run between downtown Brooklyn and Downtown Manhattan, and others throughout Midtown Manhattan
My underlying premise is that the Manhattan CBD be closed to all private automobiles, thus this alternative is required.
They could be installed one Avenue at a time.
First close Broadway to all traffic, then put LRVs running in both directions. Streets crossing broadway are also closed, leaving every third street open to cross broadway. This is where the tram stops are.
Each stop is just before the tram crosses the through street. The trams key by the station, turnning the traffic lights to red, then they have a clear three block run to the next station.
I envision low-riding cars that are ADA accessable, but are also double decker three unit articulated cars. Why so tall? The trolley wire needs to be high enough to clear trucks on the cross streets, so you may as well make the cars tall too.
No fare collection means that all doors will open and there would be no sales of tickets or need for conductors.
Elias
The problem is you could get a good cheap trunk line, say:
WTC - underground terminal
Rector St - Washington St subway
Governor's Island - expensive but cool
Van Brunt - Columbia Sts
Clinton St
Second Avenue
But then where would you send it?
Down 3rd Av and across the VN Bridge into SI sounds a good idea, but it would hugely duplicate the 4th Av BMT.
Continuing along the Prospect Expwy to Ft Ham Pkwy also sounds good - you'd get an interchange with both the 4th Av Lcl and the IND F train - but then it would be difficult to go anywhere further without wholly duplicating the Culver Line.
Ft Ham Pkwy to WTC would only be a stubby shuttle and probably in itself wouldn't merit its existence.
So I like the idea, but I don't see how it could work.
If one were to build a fantasy line through the BBT, I'd think an interesting one would be downtown -> BBT -> Prospect Expwy -> somehow diagonal over to Flatbush and then down maybe even to the rockaways! It always struck me as an obvious shortest path from that part of Brooklyn.
Does anyone know where I can obtain a font looking like the characters of the exterior displays of the R142?
Julian
P.S. I'm using them for my R190 design project (making textures is a pain)
More may come later on.
Sorry. :(
At least you didn't try to pawn off a photo of the 7 -- I'll grant you that much.
I'm aware my handle isn't "mr brian 9311" and I'm aware I omitted the underscore but I hope you guys can overlook that and say hi to me if you see me Sunday (just tell me who you are first haha). :-)
This Is What I Live For...
The ones he made for the REDBIRD RETIREMENT were classical symphony.
well you suck AND blow, my friend
CAN'T MISS ME with my big round 1 train logo (which will be) smack on the forehead.
VC Madman
Just look for the guy with an allen wrech, changing the rollsigns...
1) Does anyone know if the V will ever be extended into Brooklyn?
2)About the Bay Pkwy/McDonald Ave Station served by the F - why was it once called 22nd Ave?
3)Where did the B run before the Chrystie Street Connection?
2) Because at one point Bay Parkway was 22 Avenue. The key is when was the name of the road changed?
3) Maybe I have it confused with the BB. I think from Bedford Park/Grand Concourse express to 59/8 then local to 34/6.
I think pre-Chrystie, the BB ran rush hours only 168th St-Washington Heights to 34th St-6th Av (it terminated on the express tracks at 34th St as there was not yet any express service on 6th Av).
STILL no excuse unfortunately - whatever it takes, you HAVE to endure it ... back before "pee in the cup" a large number of "split shifters" would mosey on down to the drug store and purchase those silly "caffeine-based wakeup pills over the counter" ... I doubt any would THESE days ... but "falling asleep at the switch" is the BANE of railroader's existence - no matter WHAT. That's why FRA has the "dead on hours" law now.
I hate to see folks getting ratted out, but safety MUST come first. When on duty, you *DO* your job. If you're not up to it, let OTHERS move up the list and just get out of the way. :(
Would you rather it be 'let's ignore a serious risk to public safety' day?
When I got to the platform, the doors had JUST closed. The train started to budge forward, and that's when I glanced toward the C/R's window and saw that he was nowhere to be found.
He sow me watching him, and so he made a nice point to the sign. But it was all in one move with the opening of the doors. It appeared to me that he was pointing, and might have been surprized if the zebra was not there.
Oh Well.
Elias
Maybe he needed a haircut?
Regards,
Jimmy
Saturday's trip is gonna be mighty interesting ...
VC Madman
Can't think of anything related to transit though, Rush doesn't ride trains so I'll stop right here.
"Sorry, no results were found containing ""http://content.collegehumor.com/pictures/hummermod.jpg""
I remember the ride we did on the Frankie and the kid came up to us about to play "Timid Deer Lane" on us there. I reached into my coat, smiled at him and "game over" ... that's STILL one of my fondest rememberances of that ride - outdid the brewery spur AND the trolley poles. Heh. Paled by comparison though to that stained glasswork. Wow.
Which reminds me of how much I can't wait for Mr. Street to be prosecuted, especially after today's piece of graft in the paper.
Yeah! And they're nothing but a bunch of chickens!
Your standard three-Heineken breakfast? :)
NJ is incrediable severe with it's criminal penalties and fines and the police will bust anyone for just about anything. And the way the court system in NJ operates vs NY makes NJ seem like third world country. Just one example, in NY, if you are charged with an indicable offense (a felony), you have an absolute right to appear before the grand jury and your attorney is there with you. In NJ, you may only appear before the grand jury IF the DA allows you to. In other words, if the DA just wants to present a 100% biased presentation to the Grand Jury, you have no right to tell your side. Now you may say that the jury system protects you, and it does, but it cost a small fortune to go to trial.
One more thing, there is no such thing as a misdomenor in NJ, everything is a felony!
Consider that in Connecticut, there are no grand juries at all. Prosecutors have full discretion in deciding if and when to file charges. Generally speaking, grand juries do not add much if anything to the criminal justice system, as with rare exceptions they go along with prosecutors' recommendations and file charges.
My experience stems from a cop in a small south Jersey town who saw my softball bat (with my softball uniform and glove) and decided to charge me with felony weapons possesion - the bat (and who told me that "if you ever set foot in this town again, we'll find some reason to arrest you"). I was lucky that I had a good lawyer and an overconfident prosecutor who decided to let me appear before the grand jury. I told my side of it, that I was just coming home from a softball game I had been invited to and the Grand Jury voted no true bill! Still, cost me almost 1k in legal bills.
New York may be expensive, but it's the best sidewalk act *I've* seen. :)
Paterson and Passaic are in PASSAIC County, NOT Bergen. Hackensack seems like any medium-sized city: some rough sections, some working class, some comfortably middle class with mid-rise apartment buildings. Of course, the worst sections seem to be along the commuter railroad, in this case the Pascack line, so that the wealthier residents of upper Bergen and Rockland can see just how run-down Hackensack is.
The Bergen County communities of Englewood, Teaneck and Rutherford are said to have their pockets of poverty as well. Problem is, Bergen is stereotyped as being made up entirely of middle-class bedroom communities (Paramus, Ridgewood, Bergenfield) and those for the downright rich (Tenafly, Alpine, Closter, Haworth, the Saddle Rivers). Supposedly the wealthy along the West Shore branch, the one running through some of the communities sited above, have blocked all attempts at restoring much-needed passenger service.
My friend lives in Carlstadt, one of numerous blue-collar working class Bergen communities (along with Hasbrouck Heights, Rochelle Park, Lodi, Garfield, Elmwood Park, Saddle Brook and others). He says there are groups of troublemaking teenagers hanging out on the main drag at night- just as there were in Glen Oaks, the famously middle-class near suburban community he grew up in!
Not unique to Hackensack, for sure.
Peace,
ANDEE
People are moving up in the world and making better lives for their families, and that's a good thing.
Unfortunately, since the housing "norm" was houses rather than apartment buildings, there hasn't been a lot of, uh, "people of similar economic status" housing turnover. In my opinion, it seems sumhow unfair that folks who might have paid 30 to 50 K for their houses rub their hands in glee when those same houses now sell for three or foun hundred thousand dollars. It seems like a variant on eating the seed corn. That is, in many situations the only people who can afford those prices are those seeking to rent illegal apartments out of the once single family house.
Nassau's actually quite similar to the city in that there is very little room for new residential construction. If you want to build a new house in Nassau, either you have to find some small, odd-shaped lot and seek a zoning variance, or, more likely, buy an existing older house and tear it down. Large subdivisions are almost entirely out of the question. As a result, it's not hard to see why house prices are so high; demand is reasonably strong, but supply is severely constrained.
So I guess, demand and supply.
Arti
If it was not for zoning, a developer could tear down the house on the property that is too expensive for anyone who desires it and replace it with an apartment building.
Gotta give those younger folks some reason to stick around.
Well its exactly my fear. Taxes are very high in Nassau county, and utility rates are going up.
Alright, that I agree with, but that's about where it ends.
There's alot of property that RECENTLY has gone up for sale here in Westbury, as well as in Carle Place, Hicksville, and Mineola.
That's why Nassau county holds the HIGHEST property values in the immediate area, and the biggest shortage of houses for sale in decades.
All the middle class people are leaving and thugs are moving in. You get landlords that rent out alot of houses illegally and the "ghetto-ification" of a community has begun.
I'm not even going to touch that one directly, but as people in the city make more money, they have been moving east. It's a trend that has happened since WWII. The only difference between now and then is the "type" of people moving. Nothing to worry about. NYC has always been a "melting pot" of cultures, and it's no surprise that it's suburbs are becoming more similar.
And you know all about the malls here, which suck compared to New Jersey. And the ill-equipped police department is dumbfounded trying to fight these very urban problems.
New Jersey also has it's fair share of crime, and is far from immune from it. The grass is always greener on the other side.
I have a feeling 10 years from now perhaps 50% of Nassau county, maybe even more, will be ghetto.
Please.
OTOH, New Jersey seems to be in much better shape. The kind of middle class people that used to live here, now live there.
New Jersey has some very high crime areas, just like everywhere else. It is far from not having all the social issues Long Island has. There are plenty of junky areas in New Jersey, just like there are plenty of nice areas in nassau.
Its only a matter of time before we get scratchitti on the buses, maybe even on the LIRR. I already saw a bathroom door vandalized on a brand new M7.
And those trains do travel through NYC and Suffolk also, not just Nassau. I don;'t think NJ is immune from vandalism problems either.
Well at least with the upcoming snowstorm, I dont have to worry about trudging through unshoveled sidewalks and dealing with no bus service.
Well that's good. You are in a much better position than before.
I'm certainly not trying to knock you in this post, but you seem a bit paranoid, and some of your statements are a bit exagerated. Nassau County is not that bad of a place to live. New Jersey has the same problems Long Island has. In fact you go anywhere in the country and you will have a good area next to a less nice area.
Hehe, well here you go. It may not be the "best" example of "mystical", but my supply of mysticals in the subway are limited.
You would rather stick your head in the sand and hide behind script features than to listen to facts.
Not according to his complainant.
BTW, Michael Jackson has a HISTORY of associating with underage boys...if nothing else, MJ HIMSELF makes his own bad publicity...in an interview last year didn't 'the gloved one' mention he shares his bed with young boys????
Anyhow, I won't go on and on here since this has NOTHING to do with transit in any shape or form.
Then why should these people be locked up? If they are "to blame" for the "increase" in youth violence, then they should be given medals, since the percentage by which youth violence has increased is a negative number.
Of course, for you, it's a lot easier to stereotype than to use facts.
And then there's the Smith Haven Mall in Suffolk, where on Friday and Saturday evenings you'll see plenty of affluent white suburban kids doing their best to look and act like gangstas from the 'hood (there's a word, beginning with "w," that describes them, but I won't use it). They're actually quite amusing.
Valley Stream is a *nice* neighbourhood. Uniondale has a few issues, but it's safe. You're just paranoid.
Try wandering around some sections of Englewood or Hackensack at night.
You may be thinking of its northerly neighbor, Elmont, whose downtown (the intersection of Hempstead Turnpike and Elmont Road) has looked menacing (kids hanging out at night, beggars at bus stops) for years.
Yes, Urban Avenue is the last Main Line crossing before Hicksville. It is indeed in New Cassel, which is not even acknowledged by the postal service. Ergo, any New Cassel address is officially designated as Westbury 11590. Its main drag, Prospect Avenue, looks pretty uninviting.
This may consolation or not, but thugs hang out everywhere. Whenever I'm at the Bethpage station, there's a group of teenagers who love to jump down and cross the tracks between platforms, especially when trains are bearing down. Then they run when the conductor or engineer looks for them. They also like to block people getting off on the eastbound platform, from which the only exit is at the front by the Stewart Avenue crossing.
Even solidly middle-class East Rockaway has its miscreants. I once saw some teenagers who delighted in running fast down the platform behind some disembarking passengers, making them think they were being chased. Ha-ha, very funny! An elderly woman panicked, tripped and fell. Luckily she was not hurt seriously. Someone who yelled at the kids causing this got a bottle thrown at him.
So it's everywhere, even in the 'privileged' communities along the Babylon line (mileu of Amy Fisher and Mepham HS). The elevation of the ROW through Merrick, Bellmore et al means lots of pillars to provide irresistable hiding places for troublemakers.
You're just more aware of crime when it happens in your neighborhood.
Come on man. I feel safe wherever I go. And I go wherever I feel. "Safe", as you seem to define it, is not a natural state for any organism in this ecosphere. In a nutshell...You Gotta Fight. For Your Right. To Parrrrrty.
And that's all.
That's not true. There are not too many places that I really feel unsafe. You can get mugged in Forest Hills as well as Bedford-Stuyvesant. Safe is what you make it, like someone mentioned. If someone walks around scared stiff in any neighborhood people sense it, and problems will occur.
As for Bush, I don't know why everyone blames him for everything. Someone get's mugged, it's Bush's fault. There's grafitti on the train, it's Bush's fault. The truth is the streets/subway are safer now than they were just 10 years ago, and 100% better than 20 years ago.
I beg to differ. In my 20 1/2 years in the NYPD we handled an awful lot more "mugging" jobs than "Pedestrian hit" jobs, probably at a 30 to one ratio. (not a real statistic, just off the top of my head*)
*which is now shaven
Bullcrap. Most crimes in which one would "stalk" are against acquaintances.
Which is it, dude. One block or two blocks? That should be easy enough for you to figure out. Count the freakin corners or something.
"Perhaps I should start carrying Mace, a pocket knife, or a stunner."
Yeah, dude. that'll work for sure. Just carry some vaseline with you too so when the gangstas take it away from you they can give it back to you with less pain.
Yeah, dude. that'll work for sure. Just carry some vaseline with you too so when the gangstas take it away from you they can give it back to you with less pain.
I once read that Crisco works better than Vaseline :)
Congratulations to all who played -- you're all winners!!! Better luck next time, though, when we'll take bets on John's next power outage.
Seriously, John. Calm down. It's one incident. It happens all over, in every kind of neighborhood. Transit stations attract crime because they allow for easy targets and easy getaways. If you're that concerned, start a neighborhood patrol.
CG
I'll take a rain check on the dragon clips, but lunch at Wendy's sounds pretty good. Their chili is quite tasty.
;-)
Yeah, things can turn just like that. I remember getting out of college, and not being able to get a steady job for over a year. Then I got one. I thought I had gotten lucky. It turned out the economy had just turned, big time.
It IS when you actually put in some EFFORT...
You were at the Palisades... can't ask for job applications, brah???
When I was in the 11th grade, a classmate of mine died of cancer, painfully, horribly. His last 3 weeks were torture. But he kept coming to class. He lay stretched out on a lab table and performed the assigned experiments in chemistry. He couldn't take painkillers which would "dope" him in class, so he just took the pain. He finished his reading assignments. He even resisted my efforts to carry his books for him. I pleaded with him for the privilege of doing a little something nice for him.
I still remember him and miss him.
Same for you. Hell, what's the point of a website if we can't duke it out once in a while. I like a lot of the stuff you post and insist you keep posting. I learn from you.
#3 West End Jeff
With no future, there's no point. This guy was a masochist.
--Mark
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
No, but jeez, this is just mean...
Here's some more off the top of my head:All in The Family > MaudeMaude > Good Times (Florida was Maude's maid, it never explained how she ended up in Chicago from NY though!)All in The Family > Archie Bunker's PlaceAll in The Family > GloriaHappy Days > Joannie Loves Chachi (?)Happy Days > Laverne & ShirleyMary Tyler Moore Show > Rhoda (was there also a spinoff called Phyllis?)Pettycoat Junction > Green Acres (This at least gets it back on topic because of the Hooterville Cannonball)Andy Griffith Show > Gomer Pyle USMCBarney Miller > FishCheers > FrasierThree's Company > The Ropers I know there's a lot more but I gotta go out and play in the snow now.
wayne
Then there were continuations of series under different names.
Andy Griffith Show - Mayberry RFD
Three's Company - Three's a Crowd
Then you have MASH and After MASH, where Potter, Klinger and Mulcahy worked together in a midwest hospital after coming home from Korea.
Suicide is painless...
STAR TREK ('60s series)> GARY SEVEN (The lead character from "Assignment: Earth" was to have his own show where he helps mankind get out of jams)
LOST IN SPACE > THE MAN FROM THE 25TH CENTURY (a man who was kidnapped in infancy by aliens is sent to earth to start the downfall of the human race. A short film was made before it was canned)
BATMAN > BATGIRL (was supposed to have her own show and villians but was just added into the BATMAN series instead. A short film exists)
SIX MILLION DOLLAR MAN > BIONIC BOY (teenage version of the parent show). There was the BIONIC WOMAN which was made with Lindsay Waggoner and was a hit.
Oh, BTW, THE ANDY GRIFFITH SHOW also had a later spinoff called MAYBERRY, RFD...with Ken Berry. Actually, I believe GREEN ACRES was the original show and PETTICOAT JUNCTION was the spinoff. IIRC, wasn't GREEN ACRES itself some relation to the Andy Griffith Show??? I thought it was...
Also the 10 movies.
Also there was The Lone Gunmen from The X-Files. After that show was cancelled, Mulder's nerdy friends were reintegrated into the X-files.
In case anyone watched the pilot, the plot involved the trio stopping a computer controlled airplane from crashing into the World Trade Center. Original Air Date: March 4, 2001.
--Mark
Oh man!!! So as a teenager, all those Sunday nights of watching Married With Children, and panting over Christina Appelgate, I was panting over a guy in drag! I feel dirty now.
IAWTP.com
As I was searching the wet pavement for the lost receipt, I
heard a quiet sobbing. The crying was coming from a poorly
dressed boy of about 12 years old. He was short and thin.
He had no coat. He was just wearing a ragged flannel shirt
to protect him from the cold night's chill.
Oddly enough, he was holding a hundred dollar bill in his hand.
Thinking that he had gotten lost from his parents, I asked him
what was wrong. He told me his sad story. He said that he
came from a large family. He had three brothers and four
sisters. His father had died when he was nine years old. His
mother was poorly educated and worked two full time jobs. She
made very little to support her large family.
Nevertheless, she had managed to skimp and save two hundred
dollars to buy her children Christmas presents. The young
boy had been dropped off, by his mother, on the way to her
second job. He was to use the money to buy presents for all
his siblings and save just enough to take the bus home. He had
not even entered the mall, when an older boy grabbed one of
the hundred dollar bills and disappeared into the night.
Why didn't you scream for help?" I asked.
The boy said, "I did."
"And nobody came to help you?" I wondered.
The boy stared at the sidewalk and sadly shook his head.
"How loud did you scream?" I inquired.
The soft-spoken boy looked up and meekly whispered, "Help me..."
I realized then that absolutely no one could have heard that
poor boy cry for help. So I grabbed his other hundred and ran
to my truck.
Save up some $$$ and visit one of those Asian massage joints that advertise in the back pages of the Village Voice. Somehow I can't imagine that they're terribly expensive. Having done so, you'll feel less desparate and that should make it easier for you to deal with chix.
Also women like personal trainers, not railfans.
Most chix don't realize that most personal trainers are morons with mail-order certifications and grossly inadequate knowledge of proper training routines.
Sez who? Brother, you don't know of what you speak. You can't approach the situation with that attitude. Combine the two! Woman always appreciate dudes who are really into what they like. Make it sound interesting, boyo. Regale `em with harrowing tales of the rails. Get `em gigglin' with your intensity. Use some of your "inside knowledge" to amaze and please and tease the honey.
And if that don't work, get off at the NEXT stop and do it again. Or, don't combine the two. Just go fer it.
Better still, try not to post except under supervision. I USUALLY know what I'm doing- though some may beg to differ.
Not a hard one...
You kids are too good.
Not really, as TA indicates when service is available cross-platform. Actually lack of that wording was a clue for me.
Arti
Ok, maybe a little.
I'm thinking of the end of Matrix Revolutions.
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20031205_37.html
MOSCOW Dec. 5 An explosion ripped through a train in southern Russia on Friday, killing at least 15 people and injuring 50, emergency officials said.
The train was traveling between the cities of Kislovodsk and Mineralnye Vody, near the war-wracked region of Chechnya, according to the Emergency Situations Ministry. The explosion occurred near the town of Yessentuki, ministry spokesman Viktor Beltsov said.
According to preliminary information, a bomb was placed under or in the second car in the train, he said.
-----------
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3293095.stm
Train blast kills 15 in Russia
At least 15 people have been killed in an explosion on a commuter train in southern Russia.
Another 50 people were injured in the blast, which derailed the train between the resort towns of Mineralnye Vody and Kislovodsk.
The area is near the troubled region of Chechnya.
Russia's emergencies ministry has said that the explosion was the result of a "terrorist act", and that a bomb destroyed the train's second carriage.
Local officials described pulling bodies from the train, which has been thrown onto its side.
The explosion happened about 0800 (0500GMT).
Death Toll now at 36. :(
I have a girl. Thanks.
I wonder if I could tell him which MTH subway sets I want for Christmas!
His wife wears a hat because they are observant Jews, and under Orthodox law, women must cover their hair for all men except their parents, siblings, children and husbands.
As I said, this looks like a normal hat that women wear on Shabbos. She probably wore the hat for a nice formal photo.
I hope that picture wasn't taken on Shabbos.
Michael
Washington, DC
--Mark
Don't ever post with my handle again.
But it was seriously funny to read!
Would I be right in guessing that Moms at home looking at the snow and Dantes at school?
Yes you would. LOL.
I *HOPE* he didn't bet his 6 grape sodas...
In this project, they completely submerged the Central Artery (the main highway through downtown), creating an 8-mile 8-10 lane superhighway underground, built an incredibly complex network of interchanges between two interstate highways and two major state highways (I-90, I-93, Rt 1 & Rt 3), bullt a new harbor tunnel (Ted Williams tunnel, an expwy to Logan Airport) that connects with all this, built a huge new bridge (the Zakem Memorial), and the Gray Line (a submerged bus-only line; practically a subway line in and of itself). The builders pulled off some engineering miracles to get it done, weaving around, over, and under existing subway lines. And once the last part is opened in two weeks, the entire flow of traffic in Boston will be markedly quicker, the godawfully ugly and woefully inadequate elevated highway will be gone, and the quality of life for Boston commuters should improve by a huge margin.
Why then will it cost $17B (not even counting the inevitable cost overruns) and take 12+ years to build one frikkin two-track subway line that won't serve the majority of riders, and (apart from a connection to the B'way line) doesn't even go to the outer boroughs? Ludicrous.
I find it the height of absurdity to see the price tag of the Second Avenue Subway set at (at least) $17 billion, and will take some 12 years to build. Boston's Big Dig project cost about $4 or 5 billion less (even after all the overruns), and took about as long.
Why then will it cost $17B (not even counting the inevitable cost overruns) and take 12+ years to build one frikkin two-track subway line that won't serve the majority of riders, and (apart from a connection to the B'way line) doesn't even go to the outer boroughs? Ludicrous.
It may cost this much and take this much time to excavate under Manhattan these days OR the MTA's presenting a "worst case scenario" OR the spirit of Boss Tweed lives on.
Anyway, I think i'm missing one big engineering fact on this whole thing. If your tunnelling that deep, where is there a problem, I mean all your work is going on underground. I couldn't even see any problems with utilities since those aren't usually that deep. Aside from stations and such, what would cause this project to get in the way of the daily life on the surface?
The stations have to be cut and cover. Very expensive, though I also don't personally see how it adds up to $16 billion.
Big Dig: Replace an existing highway "in the sky" with a larger submerged version of itself. Sure, it removes the ugly beast in the sky and adds a few more lanes, but the Bay State could've just as easily spent half of that improving the MBTA Commuter Rail's Northern lines (running out of North Station), always second-rate to the Southern Lines, as well as expansion on the Orange Line. But that would mean giving in to transit advocates who actually say that improving one of the world's most bureacratic big-city transit systems would actually *gasp* take people off the road. And is it really that good? Let me see, I drove through the new tunnels and got lost (and I'm a local!) 'cuz the signage is SO BAD, plus half of the tunnel speed limits are 25 mph so you have the locals like myself doing 45 and lost out-of-towners going at the speed limit, that's an accident waiting to happen. And what of this notion that it will make driving all over Boston better--all it's doing is encouraging MORE people to drive into this cowpasture-avenue city.
2nd Av Subway: A bit pricey and definitely more research is necessary into exactly how much it will alleviate the "lonely" Lexington Av Line, which seems to do fairly well but could use some assistance after all these years. Let's face it--subways are expensive these days, especially in overdeveloped areas like Manhattan. Considering the amount of temporary structuring necessary to do the cut-and-cover for the already existing subways while keeping the roads open, the undertaking is a very bold one in today's time with ten times the amount of traffic on the surface and utilities underneath. My solution: an elevated heavy rail system like Miami's--much cheaper and if done right, aesthetically pleasing. Of course, the whole point of the subway building years ago in Manhattan was to get RID of elevated rail, but it's on the comeback. Any takers?
If we had an elevated system, I'd favor extending it, as at the end of the Astoria line. But in Manhattan what would it connect to? We have a system. The system should be expanded, not replaced by more parts that do not inter-operate (there are too many of those already).
Elevated lines are not on the comeback... It's ground transportation that LRV rely on that is on the comeback.
N Bwy
The only profitable LRT systems in the UK is the DLR, effectively an automated El. Sys something about surface running...
No the $17 Billion is more accurate, the Elevated JFK Airtrain cost $2.3 Billion.
Boston's Big Dig's final cost will reach $16 billion when the final bit of asphalt is put in and the new Green Line ramp is finally done.
The engineering was very impressive but the cost oveerruns were horrendous, mostly due to lack of fully anticipating what would be required.
And the Big Dig's area of construction was confined to central Boston, even if you count the Bridges.
"and the Gray Line (a submerged bus-only line; practically a subway line in and of itself)."
You are referring to the Silver Line. The Silver Line's cost is not included in the Big Dig project.
"Why then will it cost $17B (not even counting the inevitable cost overruns) and take 12+ years to build one frikkin two-track subway line"
Covering the full length of Manhattan, a much larger area than the Big Dig (but not as many engineering complications).
" over a larger area tha that won't serve the majority of riders,"
It will serve, directly, or indirectly, riders on three of the city's the busiest trunks: the Lex, the Broadway Line, and the Queens Blvd. Line, and will impact riders in 4 boroughs.
Try again...
Time to move onto PPP. Let the private sector worry about getting things right.
Arti
NO!!! PPP is a disaster - it means government paying profiteers money.
Do elaborate, what do you mean by profiteers.
Also, how is it worse of government payng an engineering firm or construction company money.
Arti
Look at the disaster that used to be British Rail. It is no coincidence that the SRA justified the latest fare hikes by stating that there were two ways the railways were funded: increased government subsidy and higher fares. The private sector does not put any significant amount of money in, but takes a huge amount out. Meanwhile everything is costing more as more people try to profiteer and everyone is getting ripped off as a result. Bring back British Rail!
Arti
Urgent - Winter Weather Message National Weather Service Upton NY 406 AM EST Fri Dec 5 2003
1700- Bronx NY-Essex NJ-Hudson NJ-Kings (brooklyn) NY-Nassau NY- New York (manhattan) NY-Queens NY-Richmond (staten Is.) NY-Union NJ-
...The National Weather Service Has Issued A Winter Storm Warning For Tonight Through Saturday Night...
Light Snow Will Overspread The Area Early This Afternoon...With An Inch Or Less Accumulation Expected By Early This Evening. Precipitation May Mix With Light Rain Or Sleet Tonight As Relatively Mild Air Is Drawn In From Off The Ocean...Limiting Total Accumulation By Early Saturday Morning To Around 2 Inches.
Precipitation Will Likely Become All Snow Again Late Tonight And Become Heavy At Times Saturday...With 3 To 5 Inches Total Accumulation By Saturday Evening. Snow...Heavy At Times...Will Continue Into Saturday Night...Then Taper Off And End By Daybreak Sunday. While The Exact Track Of This Storm Will Determine The Exact Snowfall Amounts...At This Time Snowfall Totals Of 6 To 8 Inches Are Expected. In Addition...Northeast Winds Will Become Strong Tonight Through Saturday Night...Causing Considerable Blowing And Drifting Snow.
I doubt if there will be a trip this weekend.
Michael
Washington, DC
I can imagine a T/O humming "Rudolph with your nose so bright, won't you lead my R142 tonight?"
I can imagine a T/O screaming "Whoa, Rudolph" as he slides down the Manny B towards a red.
Michael
Washington, DC
No wonder the light is red.
So it turns white for a half a day - turns cruddy and sloppy REAL fast ... as we say upstate, "Watch out where the huskies go and don't you eat that YELLOW snow ..." :)
Eddie, are you kidding?
I've seen you on my TV
Eddie, are you kidding?
The people always ask me
I saw your double knits
I thought they were the pits
You threw it in a bag
And then you sent me home - -
What!?
Eddie, are you kidding?
No, no.
Eddie, are you kidding?
No, no.
Eddie, are you teasing
About your rancid garments?
Eddie, are you teasing
About your sixty tailors?
I'm coming over shortly
Because I am a portly
You promised you could fit me
In fifty Dollar suit - -
Oh
Eddie, are you kidding?
No, no.
Eddie, are you kidding?
No, no.
When I said it does not look good, people are saying the trip might be called off with snow. However the subways are running anyway so the trips are still ON.
I have to set up a craft show late this afternoon and I am wondering if I will even be able to get out of my driveway.
There are currently track connections to both the East and West side lines.
The drawing on the MTA web site shows the new station connected to the West Side lines only.
Was service ever run on the East Side to South Ferry?
wayne
The Suttle operated with special cars that were rigged to only open the middle doors. It was not worth the effor to keep them going.
Elias
You also would not wish to contemplate the pain of jumping out an end door and smacking flat dab into a concrete wall. OUCH!
You also would not wish to contemplate the pain of jumping out an end door and smacking flat dab into a concrete wall. OUCH!
Yes, that is why the walls are there, but the issue remains that modern cars cannot platform there because they cannot selectively open just the center doors.
: ) Elias
South Ferry had Lex service until 1977, although except for a brief period 1905-08 before the Brooklyn line opened, such service was through a shuttle rush hours, through service was only off peak.
It is very easy to schedule these short runs so that they remain in the South Ferry loop, while a boat arrives, load its passengers and leave 5 minutes after the boat docks. These expresses currently run comparitively empty uptown. This would provide them with a useful load on their way back to their Bronx yards.
The pm rush is different. You want to get passengers to the ferry as quickly as possible. The 2-car shuttle is good for that. The only hindrance would be a 90 second dwell time at each station to change direction. The best headway would be 5-6 minutes.
The removing the capability to open only center doors was a great blunder in the design of the postwar IRT cars. It's an insignificant cost item in the car's design and maintenance. Want to build a 2nd South Ferry terminal for the East Side for another $200 million to overcome this gaff?
On the Lo-V, the center doors had an automatic cut-out for when
the space was being used as an extra seat in off-peak hours,
and another automatic cut-out so the vestibule doors wouldn't open
at the front or rear of the train, but no way I can think of to
open just the center doors without going beneath the seats and
using the cut-out switch. This seems to be equivalent to what
it would take with modern equipment.
I remember a thread awhile ago where some subtalkers laid out elaborate plans for a new South Ferry station that included tail tracks and a semi-straight platform.
Once we have a full-length SAS, this might be something to consider. But I agree that if the MTA is digging up Battery Park, they should consider East Side revenue connections.
It would also require more space than there is to build two such stations
Recently the MTA just added another <5> train on the Lexington at least during the PM rush.
NY1 on South Ferry Plans
NY1 on Downtown Funds
He's as much a New York City fixture as a bagel with a shmear. I would hate to see something happen to him.
Posted on:12/5/03 9:46:02 AM
Due to signal problems at 34th Street/6th Avenue, downtown-bound B & D trains are running with delays through the area.
"WCBS-TV 2 is doing an hour-long special on the Subway Centennial to air at the end of January. Please help us by answering any of the following questions:
1) What's the longest ride anyone has to get work every day?(names and contact info please). The A train is the longest line, but who has the longest commute?
2) Hidden Treasures -- we know about the original City Hall station, but what other hidden tunnels or retired stations might the viewers find interesting?
3) Public Bathrooms -- Are there still any in the subway system? If so, where?
Please send answers to these and offer any other ideas to CBS-2 correspondent Brendan Keefe directly at bkeefe@cbs.com or post them in this discussion group.
Thanks!"
(3) I know for a fact that a subway bathroom exists at 71st-Continental Ave's station on the E/F/V/G line.
2)The OTHER City Hall station
the tunnels to 76th St
***the Chrystie connector between the J/M/Z and the F/V***
Worth/Lafyette, 18/Park, and 91/Bway
South Ferry Loop connection to the 5 at Bowling Green
3)Jamaica Center, Rockaway Parkway
Here's a list of some I know of:
34th St-Herald Sq (by the elevators to the Broadway Line)
East 180 St
Parkchester (mezzanine level above Fare Control [FC])
Church Av/McDonald Av (behind the first staircase to Manhattan-bound trains on the Church Avenue end [inside FC])
Jamaica Center (inside of Parsons Blvd. FC)
Main Street-Flushing (inside Lippman Plaza FC)
Don't tell me your answers - email the guy at CBS bkeefe@cbs.com.
Oh well, perhaps we'll get more intellegent coverage from the print media.
I remember WMATA had to rename the station stop and all the maps to reflect Ronald Reagan national aiport (with the threat of no funding if they didn't). Though I still just call it "National".
GIVE ME A BREAK!
I just don't like the idea of naming major sites after living* people. Somehow doesn't seem right.
* = admittedly, in Reagan's case, this is somewhat of a gray area
But what happened to Idelwild Airport? And Hudson County Bouievard? And Cape Canaveral (one of the oldest nams in the U.S.), though that was eventually reversed. And streets and schools throughout the country.
But people go ape when something is named for a Republican...
(And I'm not even a Republican)
Not a Republican. Actually not a [modern] Democrat either. More like a Libertarian. Seriously.
You'll be hard pressed to find any evidence that Jefferson actually wrote that. The first written record of that phrase comes in Thoreau's Civil Disobedience. My guess is current exponents of this doctrine would prefer us not to know its context. Jefferson, they thought, was safer than Thoreau.
CG
A better campaign slogan would have been "Can't someone else do it?"
I sure hope that reason wins out and science is able to fully explore the possiblities of stems cells without the intererence of the far right.
The garbage man can!
Of all our founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson is the least worthy of adulation.
Big %$#@& deal.
Also FDR has been dead for over 50 years while Reagan has only been brain dead for that long.
This is a southbound 6 train. Next Stop, Union-bashing Square/Reagan Plaza, change for the L train ... :-\
Ummmm, are you so sure about that? I think that it is definitly a point that can be argued.
Selkirk makes a good point, we could honor RR by renaming Union Square, Union Bashing/Reagan Square. Kind of honor's the man and explains what he was about. I sure the air traffic controllers remember him well.
Union Bashing/Ronald Reagan/James Earl Carter Square
It was Carter's plan to fire the Air Controllers, which Reagan carried out. And Carter taxed Unemployment Insurance, a mainstay of labor, for the first time.
But not he's a regular diety among the starry-eyed left.
It's a matter of Whose Ox is Getting Honored.
And don't forget what his tax cuts did to the deficeit. Remember before Reagan, the Republican hated deficiets. But when there man created unprecidentedly large ones, they were OK. Go figure........
I'm trying not to get political, but I cannot let this one go. This is utter BS. Tax cuts and deficits have nothing to do with each other. Reagan's tax cuts created the largest peacetime economic expansion in the nation's history. Incoming revenues rose every year from 1982 to 1988. The deficit was caused by spending. They basically spent it faster than it was coming in. Now Reagan is partially to blame here, given his incredible increase in defense spending. But the prime culprit was Congress, especially the House, which was controlled by the Democrats throughout Reagan's 2 terms.
In simple terms, if you had a weekly salary of $400, and you spend $600 a week, your debt will continue to rise, even if you get a raise and make $500 a week.
Yes, absoluetly.
Sample BMT route numbers (historic data):
3 West End
6 Fifth Avenue
9 Flushing
12 Lexington Avenue
BMT route numbers after four years of Reagan price stability (rounded):
3 West End
7 Fifth Avenue
10 Flushing
13 Lexington Avenue
BMT route numbers after four years of Jimmy Carter inflation (rounded):
5 West End
10 Fifth Avenue
18 Flushing
22 Lexington Avenue
Reagan's tax cuts piggybacked onto an economic expansion he had very little to do with. FDR kick-started the 1930s economy with spending, and then World War II created most of the expansion. Judicious cuts at lower incomes would have helped a lot more people; the economic expansion was going to happen anyway.
His tax cuts were the direct cause of the deficit. The income produced was marginal in the scheme of things.
The only real surpluses in the last 20 years were created during the Clinton Administration. Clinton doesn't get credit for all of it, but Clinton ran things more sensibly than Reagan ever did, with his "voodoo" economics.
His tax cuts mainly made wealthy people wealthier.
Up before Regan we had fought the cold war on a cash and carry basis resulting in marginal tax rates as high as 90%. Regan came up with the novel idea in his short circuting head that maybe we could defeat the soviet union on credit. And thusly we did. Anyway, you know what happenes to people who run up big credit card bills then just pay the minimum.
Not only should you be able to pay extra to have your name put on stuff, people who pay over a certain amount in income taxes should also have things named after them. I am a big proponent of the fair re-distrabution of income, but that does not mean I am anti-rich. The top %5 should be recognized when they help out the rest of us through their various tax payments and putting their name on things that their tax dollars pay for is a fairly inexpensive way of doing it. I mean saying "thank you" really goes a long way to making people less pissed off.
Top 5% Veterans Memorial Stadiuam
The Fiorello LaGuardia City Sales Tax
Or: How about the Great Reagan Deficit? I'm into giving credit for both good and bad.
Really, Doug, it's not. He's 90, and he can only go on so long--see if any of the critics, say "OK, now let's name stuff for him."
Washington Metro should have been embarassed. They rename stations at the drop of a hat to please local constituencies. They should just have been gracious and changed the station name when the airport's name legally changed.
What would you think if someone started lobbying to change the name of the AirTrain to "Idlewild AirTrain."
If you want to personally cough up the bucks to do it...
Old names are cool! Maybe that big Manhattan station, the western terminus of the Shuttle and the 7, should be renamed 42 Street - Longacre Square :)
DISNEY SQUARE! LAST STOP! :-\
Which is now called?
No one went ape when they named things after Eisenhower. No one cared when they named Houston's airport after George H.W. Bush. No one minds naming things after Teddy Roosevelt and Lincoln and Rockefeller. No one will be upset if they ever name something after Gerald Ford. It's only certain Republicans (the polarizing ones) that people get upset over.
Besides, you can't put someone on a coin till they're dead.
Ike was a Republican in name only.
polarizing adj.: Description of a successful Republican President who uses executive power deftly in an aggressive fashion. q.v.: Ronald Reagan
beloved adj.: Description of a successful Democratic President who uses executive power deftly in an aggressive fashion. q.v.: Franklin D. Roosevelt
effective: adj.: See beloved.
people noun: Member of Democratic core constituency.
avid
A strike of the BRC (Brotherhood of Railway Carmen) in 1980 suspended PATH service for 81 days, beginning on June 12 and ending on August 31, service resumed on Labor Day (September 1).
During the strike, replacement buses ran and charged $1.15 at a time when PATH fare was 30 (and subway fare was 60)
There was also a 9-week strike of the same union in 1973.
The Kawasaki R62's from the 4 line replaced those singles.
The 4 line received R142's numbering in the high 7000's through the 7100's, and also 1100-1250. There is at least one train of R62's running on the 4 line, and at least two trains of R142A's also, low- to mid-7700's.
The 5-car sets on the 7 came from the 1 and 6 lines: 1600's and 1700's came from the 1, 1800's from the 6, but I think some of those have been transferred to the 1, and replaced with the 1's 1700's.
The 6 line is 100% R142A, 7211 through the 7600's.
I can confirm at least two R-62 sets in service on the 4 today.
Many of the unitized R-62A's on the 7 also came from the 3. (The 3 didn't have a full fleet of singles.)
2-380 cars (239 St., Bronx)
380 Am R-142 6301-6680 (5-car unitized)
(10 AEG R-110A 8001-8010: Under Evalution.)
--Am R-142 from 2 used on 5 as required.
--Am R-142 from 5 used on 2 as required.
3 (Blue)-305 cars
260 GE R-62 1301-1305, 1326-1335, 1341-1350, 1356-1365, 1371-1375, 1381-1385, 1391-1405, 1411-1434, 1438, 1441-1460, 1466-1515, 1521-1625 (5-car unitized)
45 WH R-62A 1901-1908, 1910-1956 (cars 0, 1, 5, 6 from 1901-1956, except 1905 and 1910, have full-width cabs).
4 (Orange)-395 cars
55 GE R-62 1306-1325, 1336-1340, 1351-1355, 1376-1380, 1386-1390, 1406-1410, 1461-1465, 1516-1520 (5-car unitized).
70 Am R-142A 7216-7220, 7406-7410, 7661-7680, 7686-7725 (5-car unitized).
270 Am R-142 1101-1250, 7061-7180 (5-car unitized).
5 (East 180 St., Bronx)-380 cars
380 Am R-142 6681-7060 (5-car unitized). Used on OPTO.
--Am R-142 from 2 used on 5 as required.
--Am R-142 from 5 used on 2 as required.
6-450 cars (Westchester Yard, Bronx)
450 Am R-142A 7211-7215, 7221-7405, 7411-7660, 7681-7685, 7726-7730 (5-car unitized).
7 (Purple)-399 cars
200 WH R-62A 1651-1850 (5-car unitized)
199 WH R-62A 1957-2155 (single units)
S (Blue)-10 cars
10 WH R-62A 1901-1908, 1910-1956 (cars 0, 1, 5, 6 from 1901-1956, except 1905 and 1910, have full-width cabs).
3 Red Line Trains Break Down This Morning
The chances are the failures were air-systems related, therefore related to the inclement weather. Air systems tend to freeze up in the cold.
I guess someone is coming around to their senses. I don't know about the other days but 4 car trains on the day before and after Thanksgiving was definately a mistake.
That would be 1961 when the R-27's were the first to use the letter routes.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>GG<< :>) ~ Sparky
Sean hart
So I'm not sure if there are any "standards" for attempting to break the record.
Of course, that's just my opinion on the matter.
as i take it, riding the system means hitting every local stop on one fair
sean hart
There really are no standards or records to beat, because the system changes from time to time. Routes come and routes go. Some routes may have been quicker than existing routes. Some lines (Such as the Myrtle and the Third Avenue) are GONE! A 63rd Street tunnel has been built. Very soon the Manny B will open.
Some people have tried to ride every route, others are satisfied with riding each line. Some are content to tick off a line by riding an express train, others want to stop at each and every platform. People in school or with jobs might try to do this on the weekend, but of course there are less trains and frequency on the weekend. If you can do weekdays, you need to plan using the rush hours to your best advantage. And does your plan permit you to use street transfers by walking from the Queensboro line to the Jamaica line. A few minutes on foot can cut about an hour off of your effort.
It is your choice, take a ride, tell us what you did, and if someone else thinks they can do better doing what you did, then they can go for it.
Perhaps we need a page for "Marathons" where people can post the details of their trip, and others then can try to duplicate that trip.
Elias
I'm planning on going for the record next fall. I think that a total time in the 27-28 hour range is possible, with the chances of beating 26 hours slim.
Sean
Any idea what the current record is for Class C? There's gotta be a way to do it faster than that...
Comparing the system in 1967 to present day, do you think it should be harder or easier to do a Class C run in lets say less than 23 hours?
Maybe if a few railfans/posters drum up some interest, this 'sport' could be revived! It is a very, very fond memory and my 15 minutes of fame!
I don't have the details on paper, and my memory is a little faint, as this was over 35 years ago. There were 3 classes, A the most difficult. I think you had to stop at each station, and if the opposing directions of travel were separated by more than 100 (?) feet you had to go in both directions. Class B was similar without the 2 direction rule. Class C was the fastest, allowing express usage.
Since the system has changed many times since 1967, and since there isn't the interest now that there was then, the current record is fuzzy. I don't think there is anyone validating any claims any longer either. So maybe you can establish the current system record!!
I've long thought Metro-North should just take over Amtrak's Northeast Corridor from Boston-New York
Why, so all trains can slow down to 70 mph again? and you get a six-hour ride to Boston. And whoops, where is Metro-North going to get the money for electric motors to pull its Shoreliners out of Grand Central up to Boston? not to mention reactivate the overhead third-rail in GCT too. And don’t forget better seating for their Shoreliners too…
and that way Amtrak could focus it's attention on its so-so corridors like those in the West and up-can-coming developments like Florida
Amtrak does not own those corridors and cannot do anything about their state of being. Not to mention that you have done Amtrak out of some vital revenue. Oh, and you want to keep Amtrak on the NY-Albany run too? Why not shut them out of that one and just have the Late Shore Limited, yeah, there’s a great reason for maintaining the West Side connection into NY Penn…
He was referring to catenary wire
No, he was not. There is (inactive) overhead third-rail in GCT; its purpose was to help the New York Central and New Haven RRs’ electric motors bridge the gaps in the rail-bound third rail, something MUs can do but not single locos (or even doubleheaded locos) can do.
That was NOT a mistake, that IS how it was made, and it reached up to some overhead 3rd Rails to get across the switches.
What I just found out (here) was that they were also on FL-9s.
I had never seen that. Does anybody have a picture?
Elias
Back in the day (1910s or so) when Penn was 650vdc 3rd rail and Washington and Philadelphia originating trains swapped engines at Manhattan Transfer station, Penn Station had overhead 3rd rail, just like GCT. Indeed, in the book When Steam Railroads Electrified by William D. Middleton, there is a picture which shows the daylighted area west of the station, 'A' interlocking I belive, with massive 650vdc overhead 3rd rail.
In that picture is an L5a, later known as an L5PD. The original L5 was designed as an AC locomotive for the original sections of electrification down in Philly. The L5 proved somewhat successful hauling stuff up and down the Paoli grades west of Philadelphia, so the Pennsy decided to supplement the original DD1 electrics that ran under the hudson on 650vdc with a DC version of the L5. Thus the L5a was born. IIRC they were designed to be changed over to straight AC L5s (later L5PA) when the AC electrification reached to New York Penn, however later that proved to be cost prohibitive and they hung out on the LIRR freight tracks with the DD1s until they were scrapped in 1942. Now note that picture, it has the two small pantographs, and that is a L5a, so they must be there for something, and that something was the overhead 3rd rail at NYP.
Also, I was wrong, the L5PDs were not taken by the LIRR for freight service. LIRR did take the DD1s for service on their 3rd rail, but not the L-5PDs.
Um, if the trains to Boston actually averaged 70 mph, they'd take under 3.5 hours.
The problem with Boston is not the lack of high speed runs; it's the ultra low speeds over bridges, around curves, over switches, etc.
But once it is late its tough nuggies! It will just have to fit in where there is space. AFTER OUR TRAINS.
Heck, all of the freight railroads do it the same way.
Elias
Of course, it all seems fair from the host railroad's perspective. =)
:-) Andrew
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
*According to the BERA website's latest totals I have 99 volunteer hours, I need one more hour for an even 100!!!
Without the official word, I doubt BERA will be open to the
public on Sunday. But as usual the snow doesn't move it self
until spring without membership assistance. Rare opportunity
to see Montreal 3152 in action. Was located 1st out on track 64
on Friday.
>>GG<< :-) ~ Sparky
:-) ~ Sparky
:>) ~ Sparky
Your just another burnout with excessive rhetoric.
Seen many in twenty years @ Branford. Eighteen @ Seashore.
So Chill Brah
:>) ~ Sparky
AKA John Sikorski
Yes, I still have my T-shirt from the New York Trolley Museum,
never worn. My association of 25 years with that location has
been severed, but you do not see me "Bad" mouthing them on a
public forum. I wouldn't stoop so low to your level of assiduity.
Rhetoric: also : insincere or grandiloquent language.
You call it what you desire, but there is more than a single definition for a word.
[BTW, Grandiloquent means pompous, or bombastic style, manner, or quality especially in language.]
>>>"you still posting up signs that you can only run 45 minute headways cause you only have 2 operators?"<<< WHAT????????????
You on some kinda trip in LALA Land.
Cars operate every thirty minutes or sooner if required.
>>>"Hey friend, how about running a post with three real bus lines, two of them reliefs running 7 to 8 minute headways for EIGHT hours"<<<
There is a message board, for this purpose it's BUSTALK. LOL
;>) ~ Sparky
:>) ~ Sparky
:>) ~ Sparky
Hang around and just maybe I'll let YOU twirl my key chain........
You were surface division ten years ago? Inquiring mind wants
to know. >>GG<<
:>) ~ Sparky
Plus: "After a VIP brunch at UH-Downtown, Metro plans a 4 1/2-hour "Railfest Houston" where the public may ride the train free of charge and partake in activities at eight stations. " I wonder if all those out of town anti-rail foes will be on hand.
From the Houston Chronicle
Guess it's time for me to move.
Your NOAA is different from my NOAA.
http://www.srh.noaa.gov/data/forecasts/NYZ072.php?warncounty=NYC061&city=New+York (just refreshed) says total accumulation by late Saturday 6 to 8 inches.
Maybe your forecast is for a different place, such as Boston or Albany.
There was 8.5 inches in my backyard half an hour ago, here in Windsor Terrace Brooklyn. Perhaps they mean 8.5 more inches. That will start to put us in top ten category down here.
The on-topic point is that 24 hours ago this was not anticipated to be a big enough storm to affect the subway. But now it might. Fortunately, it is a Saturday. Unfortunately, they'll have to cancel all the G.O.s and a lot of work won't get done.
Chuck Greene
It started in late morning and we have had a steady snow since, probably 2-3 inches on the ground already. Good thing there's plenty nearby. One of the one million reasons I love this town. :-)
VC Madman
Chuck Greene
Don't get lost in the holiday shopping crowds...the MOD trip will take place during the 8 days of Hanukkah, and 4-5 days before Christmas. -Nick
The trip is postponed for 2 weeks, not cancelled.
Posted on:12/5/03 3:12:32 PM
Due to a smoke condition at 7th Avenue in Brooklyn, Avenue X bound F trains are suspended between Jay Street and Kings Highway until further notice.
Not one street in all of Port Washington has been plowed!!!! ROFL
DETROIT PEOPLE MOVER however snow was quite ""Deep"" many winters !!
had to get that snow brush and knock the stuff off many times
start and run the car 2 twice a day especially on cold dayz
............back in the late 1980s ................
it is the freezing rain that was a big BITCH ..........
.........no ....lol
8-) ~ Sparky
Oh well, as long as the same routings are retained.
John
>>GG<< :>) ~ Sparky
Chuck Greene
Good question. I never got my tickets either.
Koi
Chuck Greene
>>>"By the way , when I called the number to check on the trip status last night, I didn't get a recorded message, I got a real person!"<<<
Then you spoke to the source in person. When I spoke to him,
he was trying to do the recorded message, but the phone kept ringing.
>>GG<< :-) ~ Sparky
:>) ~ Sparky
Chuck Greene
;>) ~ Sparky
Koi
The current mechanical obstruction sensing system works wwll enough in most cases. Just remember Fenagle's 3rd law of engineering:
Anyone who believes that a device is foolproof underestimates the abilities of a fool.
We will then try to go onto the property where scrapped trains are stored to verify persistent rumors that 5 R110B's disguised as Q cars are awaiting final disposition.
After that matter is settled, we will walk north for about 3 miles and head into Red Hook, where we will form a human chain around the warehouse where Bob Diamond's 3 trolley cars are stored.
At around 4 PM, we will walk to Jay Street Borough Hall and take the first A train going to Far Rockaway.. By the time we get out there, it is hoped that the blizzard will strand our train somewhere south of Broad Channel station. Be prepared to spend at least 2 or 3 days aboard the train, while we wait to be rescued.
I don't think so!
BMTman apologizes for any confusion caused by Paul's hasty post. The tour will meet on the L platform at Atlantic & Snediker Aves at 5:30 A.M.; cost will be $25 for Transit Museum members, $20 for non-members, and $35 for BERA members. Credit card numbers or R-11 numberboards will also be accepted as payment.
See ya bright 'n early at Atlantic Ave. Don't forget the earmuffs and long johns!
Right... that gets a PRIVATE tour, ifyaknowwhaddimean.
That's probably up to the current holder of the sign ;)
So, how many people showed up?
Regards,
Jimmy
Also, it's 5 boroughs. The Bronx, Kings County(Brooklyn), Queens County(Queens), New York County(Manhattan), The Bronx, and Richmond County(Staten Island).
So, you are going to leave out the Christie Connection, the 63rd Street Tunnel, and the Rockaway Lines. How (pray tell) will you simulate the Myrtle, the Third Avenue and the Lexington (Brooklyn) Lines?
Perhaps you ment to say the "system Proper" or something like that.
Still as has been said, you cannot set a record until Coney Island is rebuilt.
Elias
Also, could I just have a list of which areas to avoid, and assuming I don't avoid them, what should I do to stay stay in those stations and on the trains?
A list probably wouldn't be much help. Generally speaking so called "safe" stations might be bad. And "good" ones might have trouble. Weekends and weekdays between 10am and 2pm might be good times to take pics. Just keep an eye out for potental trouble.
Take a ride over the Manhattan Bridge. It would be nice in a R-40 Slant.
I remember the first time I rode into Brooklyn. Coming from Long Island, I did not know one part of the city from another. But I heard about Brooklyn. I rode across the river through the Cranberry Tunnel perhaps on an (A) train, but it was more likely an (E) train. As soon as the train got to the platform in Brooklyn, I chickened out and took the next train back to Manhattan.
Later on I found the BMT, and that changed everything. The R-27s were the slickest things I had ever seen. And then a (Q) train came into the station, with brand new Brightliners!
The Brighton Line to Coney Island would have been my first real venture into Brooklyn.
After that, I'd find was to get into the city by myself to ride on the Subway Trains.
Elias
HMMMMmmm.... maybe I think so too, but I seldom rode the (T) train, or the (TT) for that matter. I alwys took the (Q) or the (N).
The (D) has never yet run on the West End.
It had, since Christie run on the Brighton,
Before that it ran on the CULVER LION.
Elias
The reason, the west end line is slow and the many local stops contribute's to the image. Adding a few reguarly express runs out of bay parkway would reduce the load on the express buses which there is no room to and any more runs. The buses run like every 2 minutes. A new express station would need to be added on the el possibly and better feeder bus service
Although the express service would only save 5 minutes, it would go a long way to attracting more riders and making the ride more comfortable. The doors opening and closing at the local stops lets the heat in in the summer and the cold in the winter plus adds to the stress level.
Yes, but the reduced frequency of trains would offset the 5 minutes. People would take just as long getting to work, and more of it would be standing on the platform rather than in the train.
This assumes that they have a schedule. Spend some time at Main Street (rush hour is better than any comedy) and you realise that they are playing by the ear.
Arti
That means virtually no waiting, better than W or even less frequent express.
Arti
The limiting factors on the amount of West End service that can be provided are the capacity of the line in the two-track section between Ninth Avenue and 36th Street, and the capacity of whatever routings West End trains take when they're not on the West End Line itself. The two-track section is unlikely to be able to handle more than thirty trains (more likely less than thirty) an hour, and once the trains are off the West End Line they have to share track capacity with services coming from/heading to other lines, so the West End component can definitely not be thirty trains.
Are the West End trains overcrowded now? I haven't heard that they are (maybe someone here has more information than I do). If they're not, then the existing number of trains would simply be split, which means that running express service would mean running less local service, which means that a significant portion of West End ridership (to wit, those people at the local stations) would lose part of its service, something they probably would not prefer. Adding an express station/converting a local station to express might help, but the more stops the express makes, the less "express" it is.
As to express bus riding in the area, yes, it is heavy -- for express buses, which have 57 seats and are not scheduled to carry standees (although it happens). A single subway car (yes, with standees) can carry far more than 57 people, and ten of them (the equivalent, anyway) are on every W train and eight of them are on every M train. As for there 'not being room to add any more runs,' bus schedule adjustments are made all the time and some of them involve the addition of runs (not that there's a direct correlation between the number of runs and the amount of service -- it's more complicated than that).
David
Probably they mainly ride the Sea Beach in the morning and the West End in the evening.
On what basis would such a claim be made?
David
On what basis would such a claim be made?
The simple observation that it takes less effort to walk down stairs than walk up them.
David
Actually, that transfer point is very useful if you live south of it, especially coming from Manhattan. It allows you to take the longest portion of your ride on one train, whether you're on Sixth Avenue or Broadway. I used to do it all the time when the B train had the best express routing into Brooklyn. The stroll down to the Sea Beach platforms was nothing. You knew you were in home turf, just taking a breather.
For Boro Park and Bensonhurst, yeah, the transfer matters.
David
I'll agree with another of your points too. I am in 100% agreement with running peak service down the middle track of the West End line. But it would be counter-productive to reduce service on all the local stations in this scheme. And I'm not sure if the 2004 changes to south Brooklyn lines also mean two services on the West End. When the M train ran on it that would have allowed those, say, one out of every three B trains to run express, the M taking up the slack on the peak local. Or something along those lines. So it is feasible, IMO, IF another service is tied in.
Anyway, I think Bay Parkway and 62nd/New Utrect and 9th Avenue stations are deep enough into Brooklyn, and spaced far apart enough to warrent a limited stop operation. It would be a catalyst for neighborhood developments for decades to come, thereby increasing the taxes paid to the city.
I can think of no better way to give these Brooklyn neighborhoods a pathway to increased livability. They're in good shape now, by and large. But we have to keep thinking for twenty years from now, for 50 years from now. Imagine Queens Blvd from Kew Gardens to Queens Plaza as all local stops.
N Broadway Line
I have not worked out what the expected rush hour crowding levels might be but it would appear empirically that the West End trains should be less crowded than most other Brooklyn services.
The reason, the west end line is slow and the many local stops contribute's to the image. Adding a few reguarly express runs out of bay parkway would reduce the load on the express buses which there is no room to and any more runs. The buses run like every 2 minutes. A new express station would need to be added on the el possibly and better feeder bus service
Although the express service would only save 5 minutes, it would go a long way to attracting more riders and making the ride more comfortable. The doors opening and closing at the local stops lets the heat in in the summer and the cold in the winter plus adds to the stress level.
The third rail arcing looked amazing. Made me wish I had a camera too.
Reminds me of physics lab...
Probably ozone. Keep back as much as possible -- hat stuff is not exactly healthy to inhale.
The first car of R142A's on the 6 were competing hard against the R142 for "best light show award".
I might, if the temptation to stay in bed and get some rest doesn't win me over...
This Is What I Live For...
This Is What I Live For...
This Is What I Live For...
BTW... I like the new postings in the gallery.
This Is What I LIve For...
A, C, E, F, M(?), N, Q, W, 5.
7, Q, 5, M...
Those are my picks!
I might go out and take some pics also on Sunday...depending on how cold it is
The bigger test will be what happens tomorrow, since train frequency dies down overnight and the last I heard was that the snow is expected to intensify during that time.
CG
CG
I should try to take pics of my home station Massapequa Park!
Michael
Washington, DC
David
Even so, I hope the Daily News is wrong and the MTA will be given the funding to at least go to 125th in the first phase, and that the first phase will take less than ten years. Heck, they can go to 116th Street just by building the stations, which (according to the MTA website) will be cut and cover anyway, since the areas between them are already built. This work has nothing to do with the TBM, and therefore nothing to do with staging, just money.
The MTA is following the wishes of its constituents. The ManhattanBorough Prez, the City Council and the state legislators representing NY agree on this sequence.
I had believed that the SAS was just a stalking horse to get major surburban improvements built while promising the City of New York something it would never get. After East Side Access was funded, you'd get the "unfortunate" loss of federal money for SAS due to the deficit, and state money due to the debt Pataki loaded on the system. Statements by the NYC Partnership, Hevesi, and the FTA over the past year seem to be laying the groundwork for this. I still believe it is a possible, if not likely, outcome.
If, however, the Stubway is funded in anti-city Republican state and federal administrations, we will certainly get it (unlike the N to LGA which was funded by not built). And, if the Stubway is built with a stub pointing south, it would be very likely that the rest would follow eventually, perhaps when a Democratic administration coincided with an energy crisis or a decision to do something about global warming.
Much as I would personally like an SAS south of 63rd St, I think global warming would be reduced considerably more by investing in extensions to the E and F.
I'm sure the MTA number-crunchers have realized the same thing we have; there can be no meaningful Bronx extension of the SAS, or service enhancements to the outer boros, if the SAS remains 2 tracks. Furthermore, a 2 track mainline in Manhattan will be a lack-of-re-routability nightmare. The stubway could be part of a plot to convince New Yorkers that four tracks are needed.
The MTA in convinced that the 2 track SAS will operate at capacity pretty much from day one. I agree with this. Now, let's say the build the stubway, north of 63rd, and open it up with Q service. People flock to it, and suddenly it's running at capacity. A popular, successful, PACKED SAS will give the MTA the factual muscle to go before the Money People and polliticians and say: Look, we built four stations and it's already running AT capacity, AND making money! We NEED to construct a 4 track line!' This would give the MTA the moral high ground, and facts to back them up, to request money to expand this now-packed stubway to 4 tracks when they extend the SAS to full length.
If this really is what's going on, good luck, MTA. I don't care how sneaky you need to be, just getthat 4 track trunk built!
Then again, I might just be jumping at shadows. :)
Their traffic projections don't support this. Their projected traffic allows for growth without exhausting the capacity. Don't forget, these are IND sized trains, with a new modern signaling system. They could run 40 tph of 600' trains on 2 tracks - that's just about what the Lex runs right now on 4 tracks.
Furthermore, a 2 track mainline in Manhattan will be a lack-of-re-routability nightmare.
True, but nightmare is too strong a word. The L train is pretty reliable and it's 10 (?) miles of 2 tracks. We're only talking 3.5 miles of 2 tracks under 2nd Ave.
The L is far from reliable. Every time they need to do work on it, which is often, they have to shut it down from 8th Ave back to Broadway Junction, which they'll be doing again next weekend.
A 4 track SAS would introduce a LOT of reroutability to the IND system. If it were hooked into the Concourse line in Harlem, it would provide an alternative route for Bronx-bound trains when there's a police investigation or fire on CPW, like what happened yesterday. With an interlocking in the Christie St area, it would provide an alternate route through Manhattan for F trains, thus eliminating West 4th St as a single point of failure for the IND system in Manhattan.
A 2 track line is tough to work with during even routine maintenance. Even simply introducing a 3rd track would allow track segments to be taken out of service without affecting service too much. Remember, as a 24-hour system, NYC doesn't have the ability to handle maintenance during nights and weekends without affecting service, as other 2-track-centric systems such as London or Washington do.
And the L doesn't need to be shut down all the way from Bway Jct to 8th Ave for every GO. Many GOs on the L are less onerous. I suspect recent ones have been major just because they're working in lots of different places.
Well, I'm not going to get into a screaming match over a matter of degree. :) I WILL say, though, that is a rail breaks on a full length, 2 track SAS around, say, 70th st, it'll seem fairly nightmare-esque.
That is because they are replacing the signal system, and the interlockings. If you are doing anything else, and have a sophisticated signal system, you can safely single track around the area being maintained in the off-peak hours. The new signals will make this feasible for the L. The SAS woiuld be built with that capability.
N Bway
David
The "L" was very poorly designed and under funded.
N Broadway Line
1. The observer's watch is wrong
2. The trains are being pushed out of Brighton Beach before their scheduled leaving times (possibly because of a slow-speed order down the line -- there is one between Avenue H and Newkirk Avenue on both northbound tracks because of falling leaves/snow/ice).
3. Too much running time has been allotted.
The 6:10 Q express from Brighton Beach is supposed to pass through Gold Street Interlocking (between DeKalb Avenue and the bridge) at 6:33-1/2 AM. The 5:53-1/2 AM W from Stillwell Avenue is supposed to pass through Gold Street Interlocking at 6:29-1/2 AM, four minutes before the Q express and two and a half minutes after the previous Q local. If the W is late, the Q express has to wait for it in order to maintain the proper order of trains passing through the interlocking, which also increase the chances that the W can leave Astoria on time on its next trip (the train is supposed to lay over for eight minutes, but I don't have the work program handy so I don't know which trip the crew's supposed to make).
As for the "terminal holdout" at 57th Street, the 6:10 AM Q express from Brighton Beach is due to arrive at 57th Street at 6:52 AM. Trains are not supposed to run early, so it is possible the Train Operator is holding the train outside the station to ensure an on-time, not early, arrival (either on his/her own or because the interlocking has not cleared after the last train left the terminal, which is scheduled for 6:49 AM).
David
I believe it is a combination of #2 and #3. However, my C/R rushes through the stations pretty quick. One day I timed dwell times (stoppage of train until acceleration begins) at each station and the average was 16 seconds!
Yes, the train I speak of is to enter 57 St at 6:52AM, but also arrive at 34th St at 6:48AM. 6:45 or 6:46AM however is the usual. Some days (like today) it is as early as 6:43. Since the W you speak of is supposed to get into Times Sq at 6:47 and it takes about 90 seconds on average to get from 34th to Times Sq, making the W arrive at 34th at 6:45-1/2AM or so by schedule, did the Q cut ahead in this case?
Now wait a minute. I don't have your exact schedule, but let's say my Q train should enter Times Sq at 6:49-1/2. That's 2 and 1/2 minutes behind the W, which is to get there at 6:47. But that W gets to Gold St. at 6:29-1/2? Yes, then, that IS too much allotted time. Why should the W pass by the interlocking 4 minutes before the Q, but then arrive at Times Sq only 2 and 1/2 minutes before the Q?
Now wait a minute. I don't have your exact schedule, but let's say my Q train should enter Times Sq at 6:49-1/2. That's 2 and 1/2 minutes behind the W, which is to get there at 6:47. But that W gets to Gold St. at 6:29-1/2? Yes, then, that IS too much allotted time. Why should the W pass by the interlocking 4 minutes before the Q, but then arrive at Times Sq only 2 and 1/2 minutes before the Q?"
--
I just realized I misread the schedule, that the W is supposed to enter Times Sq at 6:45. My mistake. It must be late very often then if my Q is kept waiting at the interlocking.
Per the schedule, the 6:10 AM Q express from Brighton Beach is supposed to leave 34th Street at 6:48 AM. The only station arrival times in the timetable (other than those followed immediately by a departure time) are at the arriving terminal. If this train leaves 34th Street significantly earlier than 6:48 AM, it is entirely possible that the interlocking south of 57th Street is blocked when the train gets there prior to entering the terminal, and so the train would have to sit outside the station waiting for the interlocking to clear.
David
David
You previously stated: If the W is late, the Q express has to wait for it in order to maintain the proper order of trains passing through the interlocking, which also increase the chances that the W can leave Astoria on time on its next trip (the train is supposed to lay over for eight minutes, but I don't have the work program handy so I don't know which trip the crew's supposed to make).
Ideally, if the train is that early, it should be held somewhere (42nd Street?) until its scheduled leaving time, unless the next train is right behind (one doesn't want to delay other trains that might not be running early).
If it is policy that early trains must wait at junctions to assure the proper order and a train is running early, then any close following trains must also be running early.
The real questions is why does the W nearly always run late?
Does the W leave on time? Does it have to wake up a tower for a line up prior to getting to Gold St?
Why does the Q appear to gain time on the W, after the Gold St merge? They are scheudled for the same running times over identical track, aren't they?
As a matter of fact, the W is given one minute LESS between departure at Gold Street Interlocking to departure at Times Square than the Q (local or express). My guess as to the reason is that the schedulemakers are giving the interlocking a chance to reset after the W has crossed from the express to the local north of the station (yeah, I know...the switch machine shouldn't take a minute to deploy).
All I know is, I ride the Q express interval following the one in question as far as DeKalb Avenue. When it's on time where I get it, it's usually slightly early at DeKalb; when it's not, it's late at DeKalb and I miss my connection. Maybe I should ride that interval's (express) leader :-)
David
David
On Mondays, remnants of weekend GO's often affect service. This past Monday, for instance, there was a parked express blocking the SB express track near Avenue U, forcing the first express to run down the local track. (I took the local that morning.)
The two situations ("David of Broadway"'s and mine) aren't completely analagous. My train (the 6:20 AM < Q > out of Brighton Beach) is a put-in and I'm getting on very early in the trip -- assuming it leaves Brighton Beach on time, it should leave my boarding location on time. Any train he gets going south had to have come up in service from Brooklyn; if it's very late coming in to 57th Street (or if the crew making his return trip was late) it might be late leaving 57th Street on its return trip.
David
I realize the situations aren't analogous -- I'm just posting my observations, in case anyone cares.
BTW (off-topic here, but in response to a discussion I had with David a few months back on BusTalk) -- I gave up on the B1 about a month ago. Service was somehow deteriorating even further. The straw that broke the camel's back was the ride one morning from Brighton Beach to KCC on the rear stairwell, shared with two others, before the big rush (I boarded around 7:25am at BB). I've been driving instead -- parking is easy to come by in the afternoon on E. 14th across the Belt from Sheepshead Bay, and I've been able to take the aforementioned express without fearing not being able to fit onto a bus.
If you're ever running late, on Mondays (but not this week) I have the next local - 0628. Come and say Hi.
After I get off my second diamond Q at 34th St N/B, I rush upstairs hoping to catch the 6:49 V (time of arrival at 34th) into Queens and there's hardly anybody on that.
Before the Q, I have to take the 1/9 from 86th to 42nd. That one's usually moderately crowded when I get on, unless it happened to connect with an express at 96th, in which case it's mostly empty.
Going home, as long as I linger a little while after the big 2:50 rush from KCC, Q locals are practically empty and Q expresses have seats for everyone, and they stay that way through Manhattan. I usually have to stand on the 1. If it's late, I'll grab the 2/3 at Atlantic (where it's so empty I can hear crickets, or maybe I'm getting that confused with the R-142 propulsion) to beat the crowds to the seats. Depending on my mood, either I'll fight my way onto a 1/9 at 72nd or I'll overshoot and come back on a (typically emptier) SB 1/9.
Classes ended last week. Finals, this week, are on a different schedule, and next semester I'm not scheduled to have an 8am class, so my farewell to the early morning Q was on Thursday (with a SubTalker at the controls).
Indeed, if the train has left its other stops on time or late and still arrives early, there is no damage. If it doesn't conflict with any other moves, signal it in early. Otherwise, it harms no-one for another train to cross in front.
By the way, Q trains usually only wait outside 57th if they can't get in, not just to say they observed the schedule.
David
This is a major problem on the buses where operators "fake" on time arrivals by making phantom stops (no one get on or off) to waist time. Thier is one run on the B3 where the driver waits 4 min 3 blocks from the dispatcher
The big problem with this is that it prevents the MTA from making accurate schedules because the data they use to make the scheduales is flawed. The only way you can make accurate scheduals is to have unbiased data over a long period of time (ride checks are useless)
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/143066p-126708c.html
Assuming the account is true, this moron falls asleep in the john after getting drunk, faults MTA for not finding him there, climbs out of the train, breaks ihis wrist and then wants to sue MTA for major damages because his wife isn't getting laid.
Again, assuming the account is accurate (maybe it's not???) I'd disbar the lawyer who took the case.
Need to brush up our public relations skills? :)
What's with you people? Why are you always against the individual and for the government agency? (Which is what Metro-North is, an angency of the State of New York.) So the guy had a couple too many and then called his wife instead of 911. So what? That makes him a moron? What a bunch of goodie-goodies you must be!
Hey and before anybody goes ballistic on me, I'm just thinking out loud! Okay? :-D
I could MAYBE see Metro-North picking up the tab for the emergency room and the orthopod if they found that the guy was obviousdly drunk when he got on and the crew member should really be thorough about checking the cars.
But what if the guy had been drinking but wasn't drunk yet getting on. Suppose he went to the John and downed a couple of cold ones and that passed the threshold for him? You can take liquor on the train without the crew knowing about it.
The request for $700,000 is frivolous on its face.
Its a negotiating tactic - sue for 700k and settle for 10 ;-)
At least I learned a new phrase from the article - "loss of consortium"...
If I were a juror I would award this man his meical bills and lost time starting from getting locked in the train to when he got out of the hospital.
Regards,
Jimmy
You must be new to SubTalk. There's a whole contingent on SubTalk who just hates people who get hurt by trains, people who are trying to protect their property values (NIMBY's), and posters who can't spell "proof". They love to call people who get hit at RR crossings morons and idiots. Yet these same people just love fare hikes (they can't get enough of them), and knock everyone against fare hikes.
And the funny thing is these people live in dream worlds where they think there is a chance of reviving completely dead lines like the Rockaway Branch which has less of a chance of opening than Salaam has a chance of taking a census taker's job.
What, they're dismantling it???
:)
NIMBYS often have no clue as to what actually supports their property values. NIMBY and "protect property values" are antonyms at least half the time.
"Yet these same people just love fare hikes (they can't get enough of them), and knock everyone against fare hikes. "
I was under the impression that a lot of "them" didn't like fare hikes at all. But fare hikes are preferable4 over lousy service.
"They love to call people who get hit at RR crossings morons and idiots."
It can be callous-sounding (and mea culpa, by the way). But the vast majority of these accidents are caused by the outright stupidity and arrogance of the victim. It's not like an auto accident, where the victim has no control over what the other driver does.
"than Salaam has a chance of taking a census taker's job."
Even you would have to admit that Salaam would be enthusiastic and a real go-getter about it. :0)
It can be callous-sounding (and mea culpa, by the way). But the vast majority of these accidents are caused by the outright stupidity and arrogance of the victim. It's not like an auto accident, where the victim has no control over what the other driver does.
--------------------end quote
Actually yea, most "accidents" on the side of the road I see everyday don't seem to be accidents to me, and I think you have to have the same amount of stupidity to rear-end the car square in front of you(it's a BIG object) as you do to get hit by a moving train most of the time.
Substitute SUV or pick-up truck or bus for car as needed. There's a reason why all these buses around here now have to have like 5 different flashing lights and strobes that light up when the bus hits the brakes, i mean it'd be like driving into a house!
Also, I'm not sure technically where to go with this exactly. But isn't the ticket a contract, and B) the train has a resonsibility to provide due care or duty or whatever. If that's the case, he's drunk, therefore can't enter the contract. And there is no *reasonable expectation* that a customer will be on the train after being in the yard. What were they supposed to do? Have an emergency ramp placed next to all the cars?
Check the empty train cars I can see, after that point, there is nothing reasonable the company can do for that instance.
Plus, any self-respecting lawyer would know to sue that bar/bartenders. Except for the fact the moron hurt himself breaking his drunken "fall", so that's probably a pretty bad angle to go with this, plus there was no property damage.
Basically, if he proves a cause and effect of negligence of not checking the rail cars, he might get something. If they prove he's in the bathroom, he won't see a nickel, or anything else anyway. But we're talking NY state aren't we, so I guess anythings possible unfortunately.
And traindude made a great point. He used his cell-phone!! It's his own fault for not calling someone and breaking his wrist!
Why, exactly?
The damages sought are, as usual, ridiculous but the fact remains that the MNRR crew failed to clear their train when they took it out of service. This is negligence regardless of how drunk, or stupid, the passenger might, or might not, have been.
There are a number of people who rely on their wrist for sex. (Not me though, because my mom told me I'd go blind)
Michael
Washington, DC
Anyway, in a case like this, how's this for an idea: A bulb outside the bathroom door that lights up when someone is inside and the door is locked. Of course, that would only work if: 1) the moron remembers to lock the door, and 2) the mechanical department keeps up with any bulbs that blow out.
"Osama Binn Laden's brother" Joel BINN woke up in a empty train. Admitted the press his is INDEED a junken "JACK-ASS MORON" not just Lied to his lawyer stating that he is not drunk at the time he blocked out but then MTA sue $700,000 for stupdity injuries and his denial alligation. This stories is nothing but A BIG TIME FRAUD and a BIG HAHAHAHAHA. I'm laughing because!! I couldn't believe there are such DUMB ASSES out there in this society like him, and that "FAT WHORE" from the bronx who trys to sue MC D for transforming that whore into a "FAT SLUTTY LAZY SKANK ASS SHAMOO" and That "DUMB SKANKY SLUTTY TRAMP" sue Dunken Donut for her own stupidity in burning her precious legs from cup of hot coffee. Couldn't believe myself knowing that there r so many TRASHY GOLD-DIGGING JACK-ASS SKANKY MORONS out there in this society. When I see these LOW-LIVE TRASHES on the news, I just had a good laugh knowing how REALLY DUMB THESE POOPS WERE. Too the bad The World Guiness Book doesn't enough pages to cover "THE WORLD DUMB ASSES PERPS ON GUINESS RECORD.
Errrr, not for nothing but I think you mean Mickey D's, don't you?
Many years ago my supervisor at the time fell asleep in a LIRR train and ended up in the yards... She was drunk after the office Christmas Party that day...
We would never have known but she came back to work the next day and bragged about it...
The damages this turkey is demanding are crazy but there's no way MN should get off scott free for letting someone hang around on an out-of-service train.
Gee, the possibility of someone planting a time-delayed bomb never occurred to you?
When a train goes into a yard it had better be empty. This time it wasn't a problem but taking a casual attitude to access control is simply an incident waiting to happen.
You can't worry about every little bomb, kook or terrorist. If they try, they can *always* do it. Ain't nothing you, Bush or Ashcroft can do about it needer.
Live your life well, help others, and the good Lord will collect your ticket sooner or later. And there ain't nuttin you can do about *that* needer.
Elias
And I'll be happy to sell you some adult diapers :)
First, the guys does not admit he was drunk (he said he had a couple cocktails) he says he merely fell sound asleep and Second he disputes that he locked himself in a bathroom. In fact, his lawyer says it was Metro-North employees that put that in their report, the implication being, they made it up to try and provide cover for the train crew. Think about this for a minute:. How does Metro-North explain knowing the guy is drunk and locked in a bathroom when they didn't even know he'd been left on the train until he walked into the North White yard office 20+ minutes after the train tied up? The dumbass is the one that wrote the report. The guy's lawyer is gonna say, if you knew he was drunk and locked in a bathroom, why did you leave him in there? Or is that part of the report a lie? Ziiinnngggg...there goes Metro-North's case.
Hey, more important, we have a s-o-c-i-e-t-y here! We all bear at least some responsibility for one another. It's called civilization, guys. Trouble is, they accuse him of being drunk and right away it becomes a character issue. What if he'd had a heart attack and been left on the train? Let me guess, so what, right? Let him die. Everybody's on their own. Survival of the fittest. It's not gonna happen to me so why should I care if it happens to someone else, isn't that the way it goes? Beautiful!
Easy. If the guy walks up to the cop and the yard supervisor reeking of alcohol and unsteady on his feet, what do you suppose he was doing on the train?
"I had a couple of cocktails." Yeah, right, LOL!
"The guy's lawyer is gonna say, if you knew he was drunk and locked in a bathroom, why did you leave him in there?"
It's certainly possible the report was not well written. I haven't seen the actual text of it. But our passenger has every reason to deny responsibility for his own actions, and try to pin it on the crew. He has as much if not more motivation than the crew does. His lawyer can claim cover-up, but that's BS.
"Hey, more important, we have a s-o-c-i-e-t-y here! We all bear at least some responsibility for one another. It's called civilization, guys."
Right. And he can start by not getting drunk on the train.
"Trouble is, they accuse him of being drunk and right away it becomes a character issue. "
That's an unfortunate byproduct of the adversarial legal system we have.
"What if he'd had a heart attack and been left on the train? "
Then a train crew would hasve found him dead the next morning, and this would have been a completely different ballgame.
I agree that perhaps the train crew wasn't thorough enough but your conclusion is nonsensical.
If he could call his wife on the cell phone, he couldn't call 911? Being trapped on a train would qualify as an emergency, now wouldn't it? Instead he decided to take things into his own hands and hurt himself when he could have been rescued by police. Too bad says me. If he didn't have a cell phone, he might have had a case, since he would have legitimately been trapped, but he ruined that defense by calling his wife.
You made that part up, right? ;-I
Did you miss the "if" in that sentence? You asked the "how" question and I showed you how it would be plausible.
The fact that the Daiuly News didn't specifically mention it doesn't mean anything.
But I assume you're intelligent enough so as to not have tro be spoonfed everything, right? :0)
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/143036p-126551c.html
Compared to that, a game in which you defend the WTC against airplanes seems almost wholesome. :(
It was heavily criticized and everyone was shocked, but it's still readily available.
One could be free to boycott it, of course.
In order for a boycott to have any meaning at all, one must be convinced, or convince others, to not do something they otherwise would do.
IOW, if someone were to hand me a petition to boycott chocolate-covered ants because it is cruelty to insects, it wouldn't have a great impact.
Truly disgusting.
NECROCRATS. I'm trying to popularize that word.
I rode the eclinator on my way to protest against the necrocrats.
You mean Missile Command
Regards,
Jimmy
Don't go labeling every French person with a broad brush like that. That would be the equivalent of saying that every American lives in a trailer and screws their siblings like on Jerry Springer.
Sickos exist within every nationality.
Le regards,
Jeemmiee
Getting off my political soapbox and going back to traintalk!!!
Maybe George W Bush has something to answer for in well and truly pissing off the rest of the civilised world in the time since 9/11. The USA had the sympathy of the entire world after 9/11 and Bush has utterly squandered it by his sheer lack of understanding of what diplomacy is.
I dunno - last time I checked, they were very pro-Guadeloupian.
As for George Bush he is a totally clueless moron.
Is he clueless or is he malevolent? I sincerely hope he's the former.
I have a feeling that that's no longer the case since the Guadeloupians voted "no" on self-governing and remaining under French control. The French are trying to go PPP on everything......and apparently haven't learned from the British.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Oh well...at least the park itself is getting done.
Im not for either side here (not knowing all the details), but would hate to scrap historic equipment.
He needs to let go and work with someone with a chance to make this happen.
You would not find anyone more enthusiastic about Brooklyn than the boro president, Marty Markowitz, but where is the public groundswell to keep BHRA going? Where are the council members would could benefit, the community groups, corporate sponsorship, fund/membership drives? There's a lot of basic ground work that was never done - it seemed like it would have to survive on fares alone, and that fantasy disappeared by the 1940s.
To do this, you either need to build or join an institution with lots of skills available, or else be independently wealthy and buy what you need. Neither happened.
I hope somehow the park route has legs, and the trolleys preserved somehow for the decade or so needed to get something in place. I can dream.
He needs to make one more deal to truck these babies out - perhaps to the Coney Island yard, where many Branford cars were stored years ago?
Not Branford, TMNY > 1000, Clark PCC & BQT 8361. Branford cars
in the museums earliest years were stored at the James Street
Car House of CONNCO in New Haven. >>GG<<
:>) ~ Sparky
Again, I am dreaming....
He was merely correcting your previous statement about certain
cars, such as BQT 1000, which were stored at Coney Island.
These cars were being stored for TMNY, which has had several
homes and false starts. These cars have no connection to Branford.
Oslo #3
MBTA #3299, 3303, 3321
Shaker Heights #51-55, 60-62, 67-70
Vulcan 20T switcher, Army Corps of Engineers #4353
Regards,
Jimmy
Never heard anything like it
I can't remember when was the last time I heard a perfect door chime on the R46s
Believe it or not, there are some R46s that have healthy-sounding door chimes. The rest have chimes that sound like they are about to die, are dying, or are just plain dead. Includes some that have just half the chime or no chime at all on one side of the train.
I've ridden on that car many, many times.
Many of the cars at Corona don't have chimes at all.
Peace,
ANDEE
corresponding link
I was planning to rant about the absolutely poor service of the <6> over the past few weeks, but am just too tired, stressed out and worn down from all the crap of the <6> lately. So I had to take the local home today, then freeze my behind off for an additional 25 minutes for a 'looks worse than the 4' packed <6>.... holy crap it's really windy up there, and there's no wall to stand against....
*anyway*
Who the heck do you think this one is?
Reference 1
Reference 2
The sound quality is excellent.
It's a great recorder that also does pretty well in the classroom in recording history teachers that give super hard tests and speak a lot more than they write on the board.
I use the voice-recording feature that came with my Buslink Mp3 player. After an accidental drop three weeks ago, it can no longer play mp3 files. It can't even detect them. All I can do is use it to record. I've yet to use it in the classroom mainly because I have classes where the teachers either give notes or they don't give notes (but I can still get by without taking any).
With what I have, it's difficult to eliminate background noise but it does a good job of picking up sound.
Enjoy!
Much better than the overheads for the display!
This Is What I Live For...
Nice!
Ahh, thanks. It must be getting ready to use it's flux capacitor to catapult to the Alabama launchpad/landing site.
And it seemed to bounce off the tunnel walls, as seen through an open window on an IRT from the R17 era.
But I can imagine how that would be the ultimate in subway interest for some people.
CAN SOMEONE PROVIDE PROOF THAT EITHER THEY ARE THE SAME PERSON, OR THEY'RE NOT????!!!????
I actually like the announcements for the 5 train. :-)
I heard the "Manhattan bound 6 local train" from across the platform once, and the mystery remains: Is Jessica Ettinger the one behind them?
Now, I did find out what the "Electronics third gaps car in service" was: The ultra updated 5 trains make an announcement when the strip map is turned on from "Route change, this map is not in use", which is Chalie Pellet saying," The Electronic Strip maps are in service". If only i was recording when he said it... :((
-The transfers, which are now done by the bitch (except on the <6> in the Bronx; Charlie still does those)
-ONE train identification is done by the bitch for some reason: "This is a Pelham Bay Park-bound, (6) local train."
-The Stand Clear, which has always been Charlie
So if anyone is intrested in helping please email me.
Andy
;>) Sparky
Plus, the wheels need to be trued. Next time you're up I'll
give you a file...get to work!
I took a train to New Brunswick (NJT was running on time at 1:30pm) and then took two hours get across the river to the Piscataway campus. A lot of people were going home right in the middle of the snowstorm and there were numerous low-speed collisions blocking traffic.
Why is it that people cant remember from one year to the next that snow is slippery?
Chuck Greene
That's what happens with the digital camera I've used recently.
Check this one out: an R40-M Slant!
Any idea what causes it? IIRC my old HP didn't do that, it just came out incredibly blurred.
With film, once the shutter clicks, it captures the image in an instant (unless it's one of those where you have the option of controlling the shutter speed). All the "rows" are captured simultaneously. Digital camers go row-by-row.
I wonder if there is a digital camera with an "action" mode, for this type of photography.
It's called a fast shutter speed.
Crappy camera design. Decently designed cameras take an exposure then disable the image sensor (either electronically or with a shutter) before reading out the image. The result of shooting high-motion is the same as with film cameras: a blur. What you're seeing is suggestive of a cheap digicam that is essentially a cut-down video camera rather than something designed for taking still pictures.
You have a Mustek DV-3000??????
I'm not having any trouble viewing these great photos!
Regards,
Jimmy
Here's my suggestion of stations:
GCT
59th st
70th st
86th st
116th st
125th st
and then maybe further north from there?
If not all those stops, then this:
GCT
59th St
86th St
125th St
42nd Street
59th Street
72nd Street
86th Street
110th Street*
125th Street
*There was also a 110th Street station before as well(gone now), maybe they can make a new station for that if there is a demand for it.
It will go north to the Bronx, where many of the stations there currently have poor service.
For who, in the midst of projects?
Arti
People in projects don't need nor use premium-priced transit.
Arti
Arti
Arti
But the station shells in the tunnels are not full length. A major construction project on Park Avenue? Might as well try to build the 5th Avenue El. But if you didn't lengthen the platforms, you'd have to hold the train while people moved to the right car. This would radically reduce the rush hour capacity of MetroNorth.
The one way to get more out of the commuter rail lines in the city is to build the SAS as a premium-priced, FRA compatible line that links them all together, then have it form the core of a whole premium-priced network within the city. Some have suggested this.
In any event, there is no subsitute for the SAS.
The proposal sounds good. Although the diminuitive length of those closed Park Avenue stations will be a problem. I'm wondering if the TPH in the tunnel would allow for shorter trains (4 cars?) running a tripper-type service. Shuttles running all day long, 42nd Street to the Hudson and Harlem in-city stops.
And if that were accomplished it would be a good time to get serious on a Co-Op City station, on the New Haven line. Tie it all in with the ESA LIRR connection to GCT...there's your premium-priced network.
I regret that it seems as though a station on the existing LIRR line into PS, say, at Second Ave, is not in the cards. Or, that no east side stops on the new 60th tunnel route to GCT were contemplated.
Uh, sorry, guess I meant 63rd St. tunnel.
And many riders have 7-day or 30-day unlimiteds to cover their weekday usage. To them, weekend subway rides are free.
... and the City Ticket doesn't get you a transfer to anything else. If you're not going to someplace right near a MNRR or LIRR station, you're SOL.
False statement. Metro-North's reverse-peak morning trains carry maids, nannies and other servants from the Bronx to their clients in Westchester County.
As well as lots of office workers.
As if they have an option.
Arti
Arti
You do realize that you are -- in effect -- suggesting that the cost of an LIRR or MNR ride within city limits be 50 cents. Or 83 cents if you use the $1.67 fare approximation.
CG
CG
Why not just make it free? Or better yet, pay people to ride.
OK -- tongue out of cheek now.
To be a bit Clinton-esque, it all depends on what your definition of "make this work" is. Different people have different hopes for City Ticket, but I don't believe that the people who dreamed it up intended for it to make the commuter railroads an integrated part of the city's bus/subway system.
CG
The experience in London has usually been that main line trains do not attract many passengers if there is an underground (tube) line nearby. That's because the underground runs more frequently and serves more places in the central business district.
11 TPH isn't much, but 33 TPH in the off-peak direction is a lot for a suburban line. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those trains run empty. It seems unlikely that they run more peak hour peak direction trains than necessary, so they are probably quite crowded already without making additional stops. But there may not be the capacity for additional trains on the single track going in the off-peak direction. Another possibility would be to have two tracks in each direction; two tracks should be able to handle 16 or 17 TPH with good signaling, possibly with some capacity to a few more trains.
Of course I am only guessing about all this and someone more knowledgable should consider the capacity issues.
There's no demand for off-peak direction on Park Av anyway.
Arti
Not by passengers but by trains. All (or most) trains must both arrive and depart!
There's plenty of yard space in GC. 2 levels from lex to madisson.
Arti
Arti
CG
I suspect the Harlem and Hudson lines are a little emptier inbound during the evening rush hour, since there are fewer workplaces out toward White Plains and Tarrytown, but with upper Manhattan as a trendy residence, don't count on the reverse trains staying empty forever. And remember that the yards are being moved out of GCT.
CG
You're right. I think the idea here is that at least some people will opt for Metro-North, if priced right (CityTicket?), to get off the Lex's sardine cans.
And just because people are poor doesn't mean there aren't snobs among them. Snobbery will place a number of them on Metro-North.
I feel the same way for any of the in-city commuter lines. It's not so much purposely avoiding the subway as it is maintaining my own "personal infrastructure and operating system" in a way that minimizes, uh, glitches. And plenty of people do it now.
If and when the new LIRR station in L.I.C. opens, it will be interesting to see how the presence of a full time LIRR stop there affects the in-city ridership.
I think this will be almost as useful a secondary station as Woodside is. Actually, better, since all the Q.B., Astoria and Flushing lines stop nearby. I can hardly wait to see just how this station will be used. Obviously, all the E.S.A. trains, or most of `em, will stop there. All in all, this is gonna be real good for Long Island City.
City ticket is only on weekends. The Lex isn't sardine can full on weekends.
In rush hour, adding more stops to even a few selected trains would delay the trip for the tens of thousands of people traveling further.
If there were 6 tracks between 138th St and GCT, this idea might work. But there aren't.
Off peak, the Lex isn't at full capacity. And Metro North trains aren't empty; they're amazingly full.
On peak, Metro North can't have selected trains make more stops without adding delays to all trains on both outer tracks.
Yuppies don't live on Park Ave. You need to have inherited wealth or many years of huge income to afford to buy there.
Thanks! But what would you call a line running below the 4-5-6 Line?
I'd worry that running that far south would duplicate Lower Manhattan traffic
Maybe - but the point is really to get it across to West Side without too many horrible slow curves.
My reccomendation to the GreatOne is to get out a bit more. Though I don't live in New York, I seem to be more familiar with the ridership patterns on the subway lines he claims to use.
I ride the 6 train every time I am in New York. I have been on it at just about every hour of the day from 7 AM until 1 AM on every single day of the week at different times throughout the year. While I do concede I am not riding it on a regular basis, I have been on it more than enough times to say I know what I'm talking about when it comes to that train.
Now as usual time to defend myself
---
When the GreatOne suggested this absurd plan, his thinking was he would remove people like me going from the Upper East Side going downtown
---
As you can see this plan is NOT absurd
Again only some people would switch, people going below 42nd Street would be better off on the 4/5/6. And that is also the purpose of the SAS, which would be a good thing... Also think about the area which lost the 3rd Avenue Elevated in the Bronx. Manhattan has it bad as well with the overcrowded delayed 4/5/6 line which gets delayed all to often(though it seems to be a bit better lately than a few months ago).
---
Meanwhile, the Upper East Side in his view is some greedy giant which couldn't spare any of its space on the system for the Bronx
---
This plan is supposed to HELP to Upper East Side and the MTA by getting some people who would normally take cabs on MNR. More revenue = better chance of keeping MetroCard discounts and less service cuts.
Of course it was the upper east side that partially caused the Lexing situation with their No-el, No-el, this street has no el crap and the First Avenue Association and later the city for shutting down the 3rd Avenue Elevated. And before you start thinking that this is just another complaint only about the Bronx THINK AGAIN, this includes Manhattan as well, considering the people on 3 Av there aren't even going to get a replacement, they have to walk 1/2 Avenue over to squeeze on the Lex, or walk 1 block over to get an SAS which won't even be built anytime soon, plus the Avenues were made one way, so the buses cannot fully replace the els. See there I mentioned a problem that is NOT IN THE BRONX.
Greedy Giant? ok, now you are taking things out of proportion here. I mentioned Yuppies and people in cabs having this as an option.
-----
Pelham service is sufficient enough on weekends, as are the Bronx expresses during the week
-----
8 minutes sufficient? 5-6 minutes is ok, but 8 is kind of excessive, especially in the summer with Orchard Beach and the numerous shoppers at Bay Plaza packing the Bx12 at Pelham Bay Park(year round). And I'm sure many of them take the #6 there.
And as for the Bronx Expresses, did you realize that there was almost a cut(which I was NOT the only one to speak about), which would have been bad, considering a LOT of people are on the 6 between 8-9 at times, I know, I have seen this. Most people get off at the express stops, so the evening express is justified (as some others will tell you if you want to go at it some more in another one of my threads). Then there is the 7 express which runs until 10:07 PM setting a record for latest running peak express, which is good for Queens(and no don't think that I want the 6 to run express until 10:00 either(from Brooklyn Bridge), since knowing you, you might try to bring that up).
---
THERE IS NO REASON FOR THIS MNRR SERVICE
---
You have your opinion, but this would help City Ticket, which you may not realize.
-----
He seems to think that the Bronx is some poor forgotten borough with insufficent transportation resources
-----
Each of the boroughs have insufficient transportation resources in certain areas.
Queens, Archer Avenue area getting screwed out of train service, The Rockaways with poor service, treated like stepchildren, poor running DOT buses, although they do have the off peak fares. Many areas having to rely on buses period.
Bronx, Fordham area with no rapid transit after getting screwed out of rapid transit service. Many areas having to relay on slow artic buses which can never get filled fast enough, or which doesn't show up.
Staten Island No direct train service to Manhattan, slow ferry service(although free). Has to go to Brooklyn in order to get to Manhattan(except via ferry)
Brooklyn parts of it without subway service, Dean Street closed on Franklin Avenue Shuttle, Culver Shuttle discontinued.
Manhattan Far west side got screwed out of train service after 9th Avenue Elevated closed, no 10th Avenue Subway(or anything near Javits Center except 2 buses), no train lines in Alphabet City.
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It is NOT viable or else when Villone brought it up, it would have probably been enacted upon.
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The biggest problems would be slowing down some MNR trains on the outer tracks, but in terms of potential, it is useful. Again any problems can be dealt with.
Now you can respond by saying how GreatOne thinks this, or how I am the only one to use certain street names, or thinking I'm the only one to do this, and blah, blah, blah along with your usual crap.
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Like I and others have said, this idea would help so few people
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Not sure about that I mean Mt Vernon West would agree with me, since I also planned to let those people get cheaper MNR fares as well.
And there were other options proposed in this thread which would give Westchester residents easier access to Midtown without paying a double fare.
All of these things add up to more than just a few people
Not to mention that if MNR gets a Yankee Stadium station, well that would help things for some people as well, to relieve the extremely packed 4 train.
And if MNR goes to Penn Station, then my plan will have a better chance of working.
Well City Ticket will begin soon, if it is a success, then some "changes" may be slowly made, if not, we can all squeeze on the 4/5/6 and think about the broken promises regarding 2nd and 3rd Avenue services.....
And perhaps you have some suggestion how this problem would be dealt with in the rush hour? I can't think of one, other than telling tens of thousands of commuters that their trip will just have to take a few minutes longer.
Of course next time I need to transfer from Amtrak to MNRR, something I've only had to do once, I will wish MNRR stopped at Penn.
Agreed. However:
1. Only 40% of GCT trains are New Haven Line. Only 30% of that 40% (at most) will get diverted to Penn because east midtown is a far bigger office destination than southwest midtown. That makes a 12% reduction in trains, some of which will probably be offset by growth in office jobs by 2012.
2. The inbound local track is used for outbound trains in the PM rush so that Hudson line trains don't have to cross over at 138th St.
3. A train making local stops on Park Ave will take maybe 6 minutes longer than an express. That means the next train following on that track will have to be 9 minutes behind instead of 3 minutes behind. In other words, the train uses approx. as much track capacity as 3 ordinary trains.
4. People who live on the upper east side and commute to Westchester can already take the Lex to 125th and transfer to MNRR there. Many do that now that Harlem is perceived as far safer to walk through in the daytime than it was in the 1970s. Unless you live extremely close to one of the proposed Park Ave local station, this will be quicker anyway.
Sure, alot of people work on the Grand Central area, but how many are coming from 86th Street? How many are willing to walk to a MNRR station at 86th Street? Is the number willing to do that large enough to make the service viable? THAT is the quintessential question and the answer is that the plan is NOT viable.
1. Not everyone would be using it to go to GCT. Yea, a few would be, but that's not all. A lot would be using it for reverse commuting, which atleast here, is something that does exist.
2. If people can walk to the lex, they can walk to park av. It's only one block away, and for some, that means one block LESS of walking.
I still maintain my position and I think AIM agrees with me, and I doubt our stance will change.
BTW, <6> service is FAR from sufficient. Maybe if you took it just ONCE in your life, i would hear something coming out of your mouth besides "BuzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzCRAPbuzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz".
THe schedules changed alright...
I've seen 30-minute service gaps at stations many times busier than any on the Bronx 6. It happens. At least you were only going home -- I was late to jury duty (not that it ended up making a difference). The next day, the trains were back on their normal schedule.
Arti (waited for M23 for 45 minutes)
And you have the now daily huge gap of 20-30 minutes of no uptown <6> service during the PM rush. The <6> is not a premium service for everyone, but some people actually NEED to take it.
The <6> really needs to die...
It's not the schedules. Barring emergencies and GO's, schedules don't change in the middle of a pick. The current pick took effect on November 2; the next one takes effect in February. They don't change from day to day.
Perhaps the wrong things are being done when something goes awry. That used to be the case on the 1/9 (except that the 1/9 serves many many more people at each station), for at least a decade, but last year a better solution was worked out and, with rare exceptions, we've had reliable service since (although we could use a return to 5-minute weekend headways). Write a polite but firm email to the MTA so your displeasure becomes known to those who potentially have the power to correct it.
This would also provide an advantage for some people going from the Bronx to Manhattan, and in the Fordham area with no rapid transit. Those going south of 42nd Street would be better off taking the 4/5/6 anyway. Plus there is no actual station at 72nd Street on the east side(68th and 77th are the closest).
For price and transfer issues....
Local trains from 42nd Street to Wakefield (or Mount Vernon West to be generous to some others) with Metrocard readers or something else would be implemented if necessary.
This will make their commute easier to the 42nd Street area
North of 72nd, at least traffic on West End isn't very heavy. South of 72nd, it can be atrocious, especially when the WSH is jammed. Except near where they cross Broadway, traffic jams on Amsterdam and Columbus are almost unheard of. Trust me, I speak from experience.
The East Side is somewhat different, especially southbound. Lex is narrow, 5th is fine until the mid-60's but then becomes very slow, and 2nd carries the overflow from the bridge. Northbound is better -- 1st is usually in good shape, 3rd is pretty decent, and even Madison is often okay.
But Park? No thanks. Give me a one-way avenue any day over Park.
station list:
Grand Central Terminal
59th St
72nd St
86th St
125th St
138th St
from there are 2 routes:
Melrose
Morrisania
Tremont
Fordham
Botanical Gardens
Williams Bridge
Woodlawn
Mt Vernon East
New Rochelle
Yankee Stadium
High Bridge
Morris Heights
University Heights
Marble Hill
Spuyten Duyvil
Riverdale
College of Mt Saint Vincent(261st St)
Ludlow
Yonkers
The only other stations that are a possibility is 106th st or 110th st, and 183rd St, only b/c of the bus options
This allows for commuters from all 3 east of hudson lines to reach local destinations. I have them going out so far b/c these seem to be good termini(New Rochelle and Yonkers). This also allows for more trains to run express, while this one would pick up most of the local service. Example:
NH line, GCT bound:
half of the trains, last stop is New Rochelle, then straight to GCT. The other half stops at New Rochelle, then Mt Vernon East, Forham, 125th St, then GCT. At New Rochelle, people will also be able to transfer to a local train, which would make all the bronx and manhattan stops.
Harlem line, GCT bound:
half stop at Forham, then 125th St, then GCT, and the other half stops at Fordham, then express to GCT. At Fordham, people could transfer to the bronx/manhattan local(the one making all the stops)
Hudson line, GCT bound:
All stop at Yonkers, Marble Hill, then straight to GCT, half stop at Yonkers, Spuyten Duyvil, Marble Hill, Yankee Stadium, 125th St, then GCT. At Yonkers, transfer would be available to the local service train, making all those bronx and manhattan stops, along with the riverdale stop(yes, College of Mt Saint Vincent is in the Bronx).
Fare:
The fare would be $2.50 to travel between any station within the Bronx/Manhattan, and $3.00 to travel from/to outside of city lines to/from any of the bronx/manhattan stations.
Considering there are some possible problems with the platforms in the Park Av tunnels, trains would only be 4 cars long. Platforms should be able to fit that many, and any platform that cant, could be expanded more easily than for a 6-8 car train. If 4 cars isn't enough,
then make it 6 cars, and have the last 3 or 4 cars platform. Make the annoucements after every few stations, and after 125th st station. Anyone who doesn't hear it, tough luck for them. The train just closes the doors and goes to the next stop.
What y'all think?
Melrose
Morrisania
Tremont
Fordham
Botanical Gardens
Williams Bridge
Woodlawn
Wakefield
Mt Vernon West*
* I would have this station qualify for City Ticket as well, since locals terminate there
Mt Vernon EAST and Pelham are on the New Rochelle Route
as for Mt Vernon East... extend the Bx16/Bx34 or create the Bx23
As for New Rochelle, push harder for Bee Lines to get Metrocards
serving different people in different ways...
To build them today would require bigger $ than one might expect. Installing appropriate stairways and elevators would require them to acquire Park Avenue real estate above. Not cheap.
Also, the Lex's crowding problem is at the rush hour. I don't think Metro North is really looking to add 2 or 3 stops in the Park Ave tunnels on some or all of their trains during their peak period. Even if they did, it's hard to see how anyone would choose to take MN into GCT from, say, 86th Street. Has anyone here tried to get off the platform at GCT during the morning rush? It can take 5 minutes or more.
During the rest of the day and weekends, the Lex handles that volume just fine.
CG
Open 2 new stations on Park -- at 86th (for east siders to use going downtown) and 59th (for MNRR commuters to exit from if they work in that area). The latter would take some congestion off GCT. Use a dedicated platform or two at GCT for this new local service, which would run from Mt. Vernon West to GCT, all day, at regular intervals (15 minutes apart?). Install Metrocard turnstiles at GCT on the new platforms, as well as in existing local stops in the Bronx. Figure out a way to accept Metrocard at 125th and Fordham. Also build a couple of new stops in the Bronx -- say, 169 st. or Claremont Pkwy, and E. 187 St. (for access to the Belmont area). Provide for free transfer at 125th to the SAS and the 4,5,6, as well as at GCT to 4,5,6,7,S. The trains would only need a TO and 1 conductor, since no tix would be collected on board. Then (this is the coup de grace), give the line a number (the 10 train) -- make it seem like an integral part of the subway system.
Flaws? Plenty. Cost, the need to stop below 125th slowing down through trains, but it's worth consideration.
I also think that free transfer should be made available to the subways and buses, but I don't think it should be considered NYCT. I think MN would do just fine running it.
I think the cost is worth it.
Shouldn't you know what the cost is before you say something like that?
Goal: Reduce crowding on the Lex by providing alternate service
Costs:
1) 4-5 new ADA-compliant stations, 2 of which are underground in neighborhoods where real estate is absurdly expensive.
2) Reschedule the entire MNR rush hour so that reverse flow trains have access to side platforms. Possibly also requiring trackwork above 125 Street or within Grand Central to do this.
3) Come up with a solution to the Fordham and 125 Street being both MNR stops requiring cash/ticket and this service requiring MetroCard.
4) Eliminate direct service between Westchester and the Bronx local stations o/t Fordham.
Benefits:
1) 4 TPH during the rush, with 2-car platforms at 59 and 86. Assuming those trains are filled to capacity and turn over completely between GCT and 125 (and that's a huge assumption), you're taking 1,000 people per hour off the Lex. Which is basically the size of a pimple on an elephant's ass.
2) Cool new service and 4 new stations for railfans to check out (priceless).
CG
It's phrases like that which create boondoggles. Just take a look at NJT's Waterfront Connection, where the daily ridership is probably less than 500 people. Probably far less.
But it would still cost well into the tens of millions. All to help out at most about 2000 people. Why not just pick out 2000 residents of the (already quite well off) UES, hand them checks for $5,000 and ask them never to use the Lex at rush hour ever again?
CG
There are many flaws to cost/benefit analysis -- over valuing the benefits and underestimating the costs seem to be the most frequent -- but there are times when the benefits are so small (and targeted to so few) that they are dwarfed by the costs and make the entire plan impractical.
CG
Very true, and this particular proposal looks like one of them!
And remember. The MN service you guys are proposing will be every 15 minutes. Even the Lex overcrowding doesn't cause many people to have to wait more than 15 minutes for an available space on a train. The 1000 people per hour is -- I think -- a gross overestimation of the number of riders you'll pick up.
"If you show me how taking 1000 people per hour off the Lex does anything to reduce the extreme crowding, then I'll start trying to quantify the benefits."
Well then start quantifying. You just solved it yourself. 1,000 people per hour off the lex. That's a reduction right there.
1000/50=20 people per train
There are ten cars per Lex train, so let's do some more math:
20/10=2 people per car.
If the 1,000 number is correct (and it was pulled out of a hat to begin with), even if they're all riding in the peak hour this plan reduces crowding on the Lexington Avenue Line by an average of two passengers per car. And as someone pointed out, the "new" Metro-North stations would have to be accessible, making them expensive to construct.
Is it still worth doing?
David
It's like a lot of other tracks around the city. At least someone is seriously thinking of adding local service to the West Side Amtrak line and the New Haven Hell Gate line. Let's add Park Ave. to the list.
For the price issues:
1. Metrocard readers could be installed on the trains
2. Metrocards can be used to purchase tickets from machines. A 2.00 ticket can be purchased using 2.00 from your Metrocard, this would allow people to ride MNR at the discounted 1.67 Metrocard fare.
3. Sell tickets at 2.00 each, for every 10 tickets you buy, you get an extra ticket free. To some Park Avenue residents (Manhattan AND Bronx) this will be as good as the Metrocard.
www.freewebs.com/tstanyc
Yes, I should have been minding my own business, buy I needed to get my mind off the thought that I was going to die on that platform waiting for a PBP bound <6>, while shielding my face from the stinging ice crystals and the snow dust clouds that rolled off the roof of the NIS train and blew across the platform. <6>, you suck and should just go die, because you made me hate you. It's all your fault....
On some weekend G.O.s you may see a <6> if the C/R programs in the express stops correctly (or incorrectly if it is a mistake).
Well, try this on for size; the MTA techies introduced the 300' gap to COMPENSATE for the lack of tail tracks. Let's say that the MTA learns that it's not feasible to construct tail tracks; bad soil or rock, the end of the island, things would just get too expensive. This means that there need to be timers, to slow down trains to 10mph on the inbound. Now, in a 3 track station with an adequate interlocking will allow inbound trains to berth on any track. A train slowing down to pass the timer would slow down on top of the interlocking, backing up trains behind it. BUT, if the interlocking is pushed backwards, it would be possible for a train to clear it BEFORE needing to brake down to the stations incredibly slow speed limit. This would let multiple trains on the inbound clear the interlocking and begin their deceleration at the same time.
If this works out, then the TPH could be kept up, without building tail tracks. Now, the situation gets more complex when you have trains moving OUT over the same interlocking. Someone who knows more about train ops than I do would have to comment on how this would work with 2-directional traffic. BUT, I think this might be what the MTA is plotting. Comments?
The federal grant mandates a 3-track terminal. Therefore, that's what it'll be.
The FTA documents might have referred to a three-track terminal because that was what the MTA requested initially. But, things have changed.
The original concept had a three track station under the park. Lower Manhattan folks were very concerned about disruption to the park. So, the station was moved and, apparently, changed to two tracks, perhaps for space, perhaps for cost savings (more money Fulton and WTC PATH), perhaps because their engineers determined that a two track terminal could meet needs.
They also were told by FTA that the project did not need to go through the EIS process.
And who really cares about the curve problem?
They wanta get rid of the gap fillers.
Another factor: noise. Pushing the interlocking away from the station reduces train noise's impact on the platform area.
If it is a Flushing type arrangement the 300 ft distance might be the first of the switches to make the extreme crossover and another switch closer to the plat to take you to the middle.
In reality they are likely so anxious not to repeat the horrible crew reporting center at Parsons Archer that they are neglecting service implications.
BTW they will fix Parsons (in a few years) the CRC will move near the E Supt. office upstairs.
Are you sure about this? Do you have more information?
Seems to be that way...
If you stick with the proposed station location as shown on the MTA website, building tail tracks south of the station would have to contend with the Battery Park Underpass. Not far beyond that you're in the water.
You could move the whole station north to get more room for tail tracks, but there's a limited distance before the tracks need to curve to connect to the existing line. You'd either need to put up with a station on a curve, or reconfigure the approach tracks to cut into Battery Park a little more. Note that there are opponents of even the current proposal because construction would require temporary disruption of Battery Park on the surface (they're literally making the MTA count every tree that will be affected by this project). Any proposal that requires more disruption to the park above, even if it's only during the construction phase, will meet a louder outcry.
If you try to simply extend the existing platform, going forward you'll run into New York Unearthed within the space of a car or two. Going backwards you'd not only have to dig up a more built-up part of Battery Park, you'd also get no benefits from any additional station entrances/exits since the MTA has committed to having no presence (including station access stairways) inside of Battery Park. So anyone in the rear 6-7 cars would need to walk forward at least as far as the same overcrowded stairway that was there before (assuming it's re-opened) to exit the station.
That's right, the MTA gave up tail tracks, provided in the original proposal, to save trees in response to public objections. I didn't like that plan anyway -- it moved the station too far from the ferry.
(If you try to simply extend the existing platform, going forward you'll run into New York Unearthed within the space of a car or two. Going backwards you'd not only have to dig up a more built-up part of Battery Park, you'd also get no benefits from any additional station entrances/exits since the MTA has committed to having no presence (including station access stairways) inside of Battery Park.)
To me the right solution is to extend the platform backward, solve the half-train problem, and live with the platform extenders. This is a NIMBY nonesense issue. Yes, the park would have to be disturbed, but it could subsequently be greatly improved with all the money that would be saved. It is the short term interests of park users vs. the long term interests of park uses, subway users, and everyone else.
Or the rear section of the train, which might not have any sharp curves (I'm not sure), could open.
Neither is perfect, but both are a lot better than starving local passengers uptown of the basic service that they need, every day, whether the gap fillers are working or not.
The 1/9 line isn't the line that goes to South Ferry and happens to also serve a handful of unimportant stations. South Ferry is a minor station in comparison to the local stations between 42nd and 137th.
But try telling that to the SIRT/SI Ferry commuters, brah...
In comparison to Whitehall/Bowling Green, SF is far more "convenient" too.
I have witnessed a case when the gap fillers did not extend. The did not key off customers; they teed them off. They bypassed the station.
The single-track loop terminal can handle more TPH than even
the 3-track stub, and certainly will outperform a 2-track stub.
Have you tried to quantify your thesis? Consider two cases: switches at the station entrance and switches 300 feet before. Next for each case: only 1 train movement over switch at a time; time to lock switch for a new train movement 6 seconds; train speed over switch 15 mph; train speed at station entrance 10 mph; train speed decreases linearly to 5 mph when front has travelled 200 feet; train speed decreases linearly to 0 mph when front reaches front of station; train length 510 feet; switch length 200 feet (300 feet for 3-track terminal). What is total time for complete cycle? What is roundtrip time per train?
Currently, the GT signals begin at the A/B loops crossover and maintain a constant 10 mph through the loop. Leaving SF, you need the gap fillers to retract, then 10 mph to the 'SERIES' sign, then whatever Series will do for your train (usually about 20) to Rector St (the above assuming the signs have not been changed since 9/11 reconstruction).
Net anticipated time gain with trains spaced far enough to not be held at the interlocking: 0 min 0 sec.
However, there's something about the machine-like efficiency of the IND, as well as all the provisions for future expansion that utterly fascinates me about the IND. I love riding the (F) train through Brooklyn, and watching out the window as tracks branch of and decend down into the blackness of the seldom-used lower level. The Smith/9th Street station looks like something straight out of the movie "Dark City".
During my most recent visit to NYC last Sunday, the IND threw another surprise at me. I found myself hanging around on Fifth Avenue looking at all the holiday lights and obcenely expensive retailers, and took a peek inside St. Thomas Church at 5th Ave and 53rd Street. Incredible. (St. Thomas was designed by Ralph Adams Cram, who also designed my former church in Chicago, as well as the nave of the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, in addition to many other churches.) However, I was running short on time, and need to make my way up to St. John the Divine for an evening worship service and a meeting afterwards.
I spotted a subway entrance just across 53rd Street from St. Thomas, and went inside. I went down a very long escalator, and found myself inside the 5th Ave./53rd St. station of the IND.
A question immediately comes to mind:
1) Why was this station constructed on two levels?
I boarded a westbound (E) train to the next stop at 7th Avenue, and found myself going downstairs to transfer to the uptown (B) train. Much to my shock and confusion, I found myself in a station with left-handed operation. Just like my old commuting days on the C&NW in Chicago.
My next question:
2) Are there any other left-handed stations in the NYCTA system (not including terminal stations)?
And a couple more questions:
3) Aside from the Chrystie Street Connection, where are the other track connections between the IND and BMT divisions in the system? What subway routes involve both IND and BMT trackage?
4) What are some other interesting IND stations or sections I should check out on my next trip to NYC?
And in a completely unrelated question:
5) At the south end of the uptown platform on the IRT at the Union Square station, there's a large gap in the columns that seperate the uptown and downtown express tracks. Is there a reason for this gap? It's almost as if there used to be an interlocking here.
Inquiring minds want to know....
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Because the street is not wide enough for it to be built on one level. Maybe you could get a two track line. But it becomes a four track line west of 6th Avenue, at the 7th Avenue station.
2) Are there any other left-handed stations in the NYCTA system (not including terminal stations)?
Fulton Street southbound on the Nassau Street line? Similar two-level station, due to a narrow street.
3) Aside from the Chrystie Street Connection, where are the other track connections between the IND and BMT divisions in the system? What subway routes involve both IND and BMT trackage?
Stillwell terminal if you count the whole Culver as part of the IND now; Church Avenue if you don't. The 63rd Street tunnel connects to both the 6th Avenue line and the BMT Broadway Line. The 60th Street tunnel connects to both the Queens Boulevard local and the Astoria line.
Both uptown services are on one level and appear to be running lefthanded while both downtown services are on the other level and operate righthanded. Trains coming from and going to 6th Ave. are one on top of the other; likewise for trains coming from and going to Queens.
To simplify the junction with the 6th Avenue line. The tracks have to be on two levels to allow the southbound track to 6th Avenue to cross over the northbound track from 8th Avenue.
2) Are there any other left-handed stations in the NYCTA system (not including terminal stations)?
No. If you'll notice, at 7th Avenue/53rd Street each platform handles service in only one logical direction. The E is travelling west to go downtown, while the B/D are going east to go downtown.
3) Aside from the Chrystie Street Connection, where are the other track connections between the IND and BMT divisions in the system? What subway routes involve both IND and BMT trackage?
1954: Ditmas Avenue BMT-Church Avenue IND (now used by the F)
1955: 60th Street Tunnel BMT-Queens Plaza IND (now used by the R)
1956: Euclid Avenue IND-80th Street BMT (now used by the A)
1967: Chrystie Street
The A, F and R are currently the only dual routes. In February they will be rejoined by the B and D.
4) What are some other interesting IND stations or sections I should check out on my next trip to NYC?
Utica Avenue in Brooklyn on the A/C.
The lower parts of the ceiling are for trackways in the unused upper level station. The station was to have been part of a Stuyvesant-Utica Avenues Line.
One express stop west is Nostrand Avenue, which was converted from local to express during construction.
At Rockefeller Center, the express and local services are reversed southbound, the local is in the middle and the express is against the wall. At 168th Street, this applies in both directions.
It's nice to see my theory of the bizarre layout of this station gaining general acceptance. But has anyone proven this to be true?
Now the discussion should focus on why the change was necessary. One could argue that the change to an express station here was because the IND wanted to pull even more passangers from the competing Fulton St elevated, which had a local station directly above it. (Fulton el service had express service running non-stop along the rebuilt section thru Rockaway Ave. to Franklin Ave.). But no express service ran at Nostrand until well after the el closed. I like the another theory, one which takes into account the original Fulton St. IND configuration. That had only Fulton express service running into Manhattan, local service terminating at Court St. Perhaps the IND planners thought that a station at Nostrand which served the Manhattan-bound express service would make the subway more competative with the el. If so, it was a waste of effort, as the original plan to run locals to Court St. and expresses to Manhattan was never implimented.
The mezzanine pictures were pretty convincing, but I'm not entirely convinced that the station isn't laid out that way to avoid running trains underground directly next to building foundations.
Meanwhile, the current theories on station modification are too logical to be ignored.
IIRC the Bedford Subway was more of a planned BMT El more than an actual subway proposed.
Which helps prove our side is correct. You agree that the station was modified, just not on how, but that has nothing to do with proving or disproving that the station was so designed for a Bedford subway.
IIRC the Bedford Subway was more of a planned BMT El more than an actual subway proposed.
Meaning that the IND did not care about connecting to it.
Like I said I didn't see anything to suggest a transfer point. It looked like a long crossover from one side to the other. Probably built because there was no mezzazine ay the station.
Other than a book I read at the library about 30 years ago (Which I copied the pages, BTW) I've never seen anything about a Bedford Subway or El except for what people have said.
Yes, and I'm sure that's true, however, Nostrand was designed as a local station. All the things you mentioned could have been done in a "Bergen St"-like traditional double-decker express station, which is how they would have built it, if it was planned to be an express station from the beginning.
there are structural provisions in the roof of the Fulton St. Line for the proposed subway similar to those which can be seen at the north end of 2 Av on the F Line.
Yes, and 2nd Ave is a traditional one level express station.
I'm convinced it was.
It was designed that way to provide an easier connection to the proposed Bedford Av subway, also part of the IND second system.
There was no Bedford Ave subway in any IND plans. There was one on Utica Ave, which helps to explain the unecessarily massive station there at Fulton St.
The long passageway at the Manhattan end of the upper level station extends to Bedford Av. and there are structural provisions in the roof of the Fulton St. Line for the proposed subway similar to those which can be seen at the north end of 2 Av on the F Line.
There are none that I could see when I was last there.
These, of course, would be a lot more difficult to see since they are out in the tunnel and not in a station area. If you are lucky enought o get an R-38 on th A or simply ride a C, you might see them, but keep in mind that you will be moving atsome degree of speed, even N/B and you just might miss them.
I shall be on the lookout at the next opportunity. However, given the fact that no Bedford Ave subway was ever proposed, coupled that a potential subway connection here cannot explain the bizarre layout of this station, I re-iterate my belief that Nostrand Ave was originally intended to be a local station with a full-length mezzanine (a la Lafayette Ave) and that the plans were modified after construction began to make it an express stop, turning the upper level mezzanine into the upper level express platform.
This does not have any bearing on the layout of the Nostrand Avenue station, but there were plans for subway lines along Bedford Avenue. Maybe Nostrand Avenue was laid out with the thought that there could be a Bedford Avenue line in subsequent years. I have no proof of this, but I've suspected for a while that the Greenpoint Avenue station on the Crosstown line was built in the way it was because there had been some proposals made for an east-west line running along Greenpoint Avenue, and the Board of Transportation wanted to make room for a connection in case one was built. No proof-just a suspicion.
That sounds like a perfect description for the route of the BMT Crosstown El. It was to have started at QBP. Gone south into Brooklyn via Manhattan Ave to McCarren Park then down Bedford Ave to Fulton Street. Then it was to have made a connection to the Franklin Shuttle. I saw a book once that had the route planned and the locations for the stations along the line. What held up the line was question of how to connect the line with what is now the Franklin Shuttle. Of course having Hylan as mayor didn't help matters any.
Underground - 53rd between 6th and 8th in Manhattan
36th St/4th Ave in Brooklyn
Euclid Avenue in Brooklyn
36th St/Northern Blvd in Queens
Van Wyck Blvd in Queens
Bergen St in Brooklyn
[145th/St Nick is disqualified because the B and D must cross paths during middays.]
6th Avenue between 57th and 47-50 is pretty impressive too, but there are many movements it can't perform.
The tracks around Queens Plaza/36th Street4 junctions!
Have a look at the Track Maps for more information.
The original name for Broadway Junction.
: )
Probably the same way the Myrtle El crossed over Broadway, and also connected with Broadway.
Athe same time, in some plans, the Crosstown line/Franklin line merge wouldn't have taken place until somewhere around Eastern Parkway.
I think the Fulton St Subway was built as planned. The connection to the Fulton St El at the Brooklyn/Queens line was secondary to the original route after Euclid Ave. Based on what I saw on the 1929 and 1939 subway proposal maps.
I think Hylan realised in some of the outer boros it would have been cheaper (Faster?) to connect his IND to some of the BMT and IRT Els. When the City bought the NY,W&B it was first considered an IND Line. The IND Smith St. Line was purposely aimed at the BMT Culver line at Church Ave. Maybe Hylan figured when the IND Third System was being planned and built, the Els would be torn down at that time.
Very true. The Dyre line was originally planned to be IND because I think it was supposed to be connected to the IND's unbuilt 2nd Ave subway. I think the White Plains line (east of 180th), the Pelham line north of Whitlock were also supposed to be eaten up by the IND 2nd Ave subway.
The Culver connection to Church is also clearly what was planned. (the only bad thing is that the Culver lost it's connection to 4th Ave, that connection should have remained, even if just for emergency reroutes).
Was the Liberty Ave El always supposed to connect to the Fulton Subway? I know the line was supposed to go further than Euclid (please, no 76th Street mentions), but was the Liberty Ave El always supposed to be a branch of that too?
No, I believe the plan to hook up the Liberty Ave El took on greater meaning when the LIRR sold the Rockaway Beach branch to the TA after the Broad Channel Bridge fire in the early 1950s. In fact, there was also aproposal to have an IND line run to the Rockaways (not on LIRR trackage) well beforehand.
--Mark
No! As mentioned 100's of times in this thread, if it had been too narrow, the station would have been built like Bergen Street. The ROW of the station at Nostrand is four tracks wide, not two. The "express" tracks in the express upper level are directly above a void of space in the lower level wher the express tracks were originally supposed to be. The express tracks are NOT over the local tracks. Bergen St, although four tracks, only has a two track ROW. Nostrand, four tracks wide has a FOUR track ROW, despite being on two levels.....that is because it was an express station made out of a LOCAL station shell.
Lower level screams "platform"
Upper level screams "mezzanine"
Compare that to any of the other mezzanines or platforms on the line, or any IND line.
- from Franklin Av LEFT into Fulton St above the Fulton St El
- RIGHT into Grand Av
- merge with the Lexington Av El
- create at triangular junction at Myrtle/Grand and turn RIGHT onto the Myrtle Av El
- LEFT off the Myrtle Av El over Nostrand, Lorimer, Driggs, Manhattan, Jackson.
Stops:
- Fulton/Franklin
- Fulton/Grand
- Gates
- De Kalb
- Myrtle/Grand
- Franklin
- Myrtle/Nostrand
- Flushing Av
- Broadway/Lorimer
- Grand St
- Metropolitan
- Richardson
- Nassau
- Greenpoint
- Eagle
- Vernon/Jackson
- 21st St
- Thomson
- QBP
- from Franklin Av LEFT into Fulton St above the Fulton St El
- RIGHT into Grand Av
- merge with the Lexington Av El
- create at triangular junction at Myrtle/Grand and turn RIGHT onto the Myrtle Av El
- LEFT off the Myrtle Av El over Nostrand, Lorimer, Driggs, Manhattan, Jackson.
Stops:
- Fulton/Franklin
- Fulton/Grand
- Gates
- De Kalb
- Myrtle/Grand
- Franklin
- Myrtle/Nostrand
- Flushing Av
- Broadway/Lorimer
- Grand St
- Metropolitan
- Richardson
- Nassau
- Greenpoint
- Eagle
- Vernon/Jackson
- 21st St
- Thomson
- QBP
The Crosstown line would have had to cross that, as well as the Broadway Ferry spur. It would have been some kind of a flying junction (as well as maybe leading to the construction of another Broadway-Brooklyn line station between Marcy Avenue and the bridge). I guess this would have been something like Broadway Junction, and it would have been something to see. It would be really something if there were some old architectural renderings sitting someplace, but I'm not quite sure if they ever got that far.
You are absolutely correct, that is why there are curtain walls at Nostrand. However, when I say void, I don't actually mean that there is actualy open space behind the walls on the local level. When the design changed, they had to raise the express tracks up through the area where they were supposed to go (the void), but of course, if the mezzanine floor was to be a platform floor, they had to drop the area where the trains would be a few feet to allow for the trackbed to be lower than mezzanine floor. It's not like at Canal (N,R) where if they would remove the wall, you would see where the "express" trackways should be because of course the express trackways are not even with the mezzanine floor at Nostrand.
Anyhow, I do fully understand your theory. It certainly could have happened that way. I would like to know for sure.
I understand. There is always that doubt, unless we see it in writing. Like I said, I am 99% sure of this theory, however, "seeing is believeing" in order to make it 100%
Speaking of an afterthought, wasn't 23/Ely not originally planned?
Yes, I don't know when it was built (very early on), but 23rd-Ely is an "afterthought" station, built into the tunnel after service already started. The tile color scheme (and condition) at that station is probably one of the most attractive in the entire IND system.
Anyone have any photos? There aren't any on this site, it seems.
The BMT crosstown el would have certainly co-existed with the Fulton St. el, and since the IND Crosstown line is all subway, that point is moot.
As for the construction of Nostrand Av station, one of the reasons it was built that way had to do with the narrowness of Fulton St at that point combined with the transfer to the proposed Bedford Av subway.
We've settled the narrowness issue. Fulton St. doesn't narrow here in any meaningful way, and the current Nostrand Ave station & tunnel is as wide as any local station north or south of it.
There is no documentation in existance (that I know of) demonstrating a planned Bedford Ave subway. All of the IND stations built with allowances for other lines to be built later (Utica/Fulton, Roosevelt Ave/Broadway) already had definitive routes laid out and approved for construction.
If you want to continue to assert that a Bedford Ave. subway was planned, we'll need proof. If your assertion that Nostrand Ave's configuration was dictated by that, proof should be easy to find.
It's highly possible that if the BRT had been able to third track the entire Fulton St structure end to end, that even if the IND had been built, it might well have utilized the entire structure along Fulton from downtown Brooklyn, or at least a major portion of it
Highly unlikely, as the section between Nostrand Ave and the Atlantic Ave interlocking already was rebuilt, but targeted for demolition. The original IND plan had the line running as it does today, under Pitkin Ave, out to Springfield Gardens. See the IND Second System Page for more details.
Many of the other proposed IND lines directly targeted IRT/BMT el lines which were equipped to handle the heavy steel cars (many of which survive to this day).
I enjoy this sort of stuff too. As for the Christmas lights, I'm at the point where if the strand only half works, or if I can't get them on at all, I throw the whole strand out. I've almost gone mad other years trying to figure out which bilb is loose or out.
Even if that is true, it does not explain why Nostrand, if always meant to be an express station, wasn't built like Bergen Street (or like a traditional express station on one level). It also doesn't explain why the express tracks are over a void on the lower level, exactly two trackways wide. The lower level's local tracks are directly under the upper level's platforms. The ROW is exactly four tracks wide. If the upper level tracks were to be dropped one level, they would fall into place perfectly between the local tracks, just like any other local station on the line.
There is no other explanation for this except for the fact that the station was build as a local station, and the mezzanine converted to an express station when the plans changed.
If true (and I dont know that for certain) then they would have been abanoned by the time construction of the Fulton St. line was underway, as the current crosstown line was being built at the same time.
BTW, the BMT crosstown line you speak of was intended to be an el, connecting the Franklin Ave shuttle to the Queensboro Plaza station.
Please understand that I'm just theorizing here. There is no mention of anything in any of the station blueprints that I've see (as opposed to stations like Broadway or Bedford-Nostrand). Any other place where the IND lines crossed points where other lines were proposed to have built the B of T made room for it. It just looks like there was though given to more than just building a station for one line here. I could very well be wrong about this.
Funny how the Queens local stations now have two (weekday) routes to Manhattan when they initially had none.
Well, downtown Brooklyn was really a busier, varied destination than it is now, busy as it is. I can see how a scheme like the one for Court Street could have been conceived. The mindset was different. Consider, Brooklyn had millions of residents. A market of millions is a worthy target for specialized high capacity transit line routings. It was basically a train riding population. All trains led into downtown anyway. Don't know what percentage of total Brooklyn residents' jobs were in the area but I'd say it was high. When you wanted to do serious shopping you went downtown.
Court Street and downtown were much more important back then. I would say that the planners considered any terminal in the area capable of attractubg riders in large numbers, as long as it was downtown.
I still like the idea of a Court Street terminal. The intrinsic train riding patterns, and the system infrastructure itself do not necessarily dictate that ALL trains must proceed to Manhattan. But it does seem that that's the dominent philosophy now. Back then, the need for other service patterns existed.
David
Not that I disagree with your point, but I do see one mildly interesting situation in that vein. I do see that sometimes L trains are less full west of First Avenue (which certainly isn't in the core of Manhattan) than east of First Avenue.
Not that I'm suggesting turning any trains at First Ave!
You're forgetting the hospitals on 1st Av.
Arti
But most aren't anywhere near the L station.
From 23rd to 34th on 1st Avenue (also around 14th and 2nd), coming from Brooklyn, 1st and 14th is the closest stop to those locations and a convenient transfer to M15.
Arti
That's a different phenomenon. The L train doesn't go anywhere west of the CBD. 1st Av happens to be the first station in anything approximating the CBD, so a few people will get off Westbound, but practically nobody would get on.
Even if the general operating philosophy is contra to it, Downtown Brooklyn is still a place where people end their journeys. (Long Island City is probably the runner up in this context.) Short turning trains at, say, Boro Hall or DeKalb could mean seats for riders taking trains from stations further out that the larger percentage of riders shun as they are crossing the river. How it would be done? Something like, every third train doing the turn? Not sure how feasible that would be.
That's why I liked the "hardware" solution of an actual end-of-track terminal. Makes it easier to have dedicated train service for that terminal specifically.
No, in the original IND design, the stubs at both Court and WTC (Hudson Terminal) were not to connect to anything else, and not to each other either. WTC was always meant (in IND plans) to be the terminal for Manhattan locals, and Court was always meant to be the terminal for Fulton locals. Just like the Queens locals were not designed to enter Manhattan, but feed into the Crosstown, and Park Slope locals were not meant to go to Manhattan either, but also feed into the Crosstown. WTC and Court street keeps with the IND design that only expresses leave the outer boroughs.
Any plan to extend from Court or WTC was NOT an IND designed plan. If those ideas came up, it was only in post-IND planning.
David
It would seem so although the R-1s that originally ran there had to seem faster and more modern than the older, heavier and slower BMT equipment that ran above. Keep in mind (if you believe this particular bit of NYC lore) that Mayor Hyland built the IND system with the express (no pun intended) purpose of competing with and driving the BMT (and IRT) out of business. That explains why so many IND routes parallel the older BMT/IRT routes.
Still, we should also remember that there are only so many good routes available for subway line construction. Pre-IND, most of the BMT and IRT lines WERE the epicenters of population and business. So maybe in many cases there was no place else to build but within the vicinity of an existing line. The gridwork nature of the streets also contribute to this state of affairs.
Not that I'm forgiving them for a lot of the route placements. Just saying it might not fit for all the lines. Now, if that damned Second System had been built, the IND would have, IMO, more properly assumed the role of prime mover for the city.
That's true. Still, by the time the IND was being considered, those BMT and IRT lines had only strengthened and further established the developmental patterns of the surrounding neighborhoods. I think the main point is, the city wanted to build new lines along routes that didn't carry subway lines. They didn't have the luxury of "building in the wilderness". Maybe some of the planners objected to building so near to existing lines. But probably, the costs would have been extreme.
You have to look back at the view of the time when elevateds in Manhattan were already being torn down as "eyesores" and that there were also plans to do so in the "outer boroughs" owing to the financial optimism of the time prior to the "Great Depression."
On a side note, was there a provision built for the Ft. Hamilton Pkwy subway between 7 Ave and Church Ave on the F line?
So believe me, I have no doubts about Hylan and his INTENT to get those "evil traction interests", "by ANY means necessary." However, in examining what was proposed (prior to the economic crash of the 1930's) did appear to be (had the funds remained nearly unlimited) the complete and total replacement of elevateds with "modern subways" and it would make sense to parallel existing routes in order to remove "the eyesores" based on the philosophy.
I don't have access to the details of how they were going to actually go about this by means of trying to cajole the IRT and BMT to go along with it, and it would certainly be logical for the "second system" to capture entirely new areas had it been built. And that the BMT and IRT had already begun "modernizing" with such examples as the fourth avenue subway and such. So clearly Hylan had his own intents.
What I'm saying though is that for whatever Hylan's motivations, it's one hard sell when you're trying to get money out of Albany or Washington, and if I'm not mistaken, the capture of the Culver came years later when it became apparent that an extension of the F line somewhere was not going to happen, and in turn that made the "capture" of the existing lines more practical.
Sorry I don't know the answer on your question about the provisions for Fort Hamilton ...
Regards,
Jimmy
Maybe the provision for a subway transfer at the N/E (Bedford Ave End) of Nostrand station was why the station was built like this.
One more thing - Kingston-Throop has an offsetted platform, I wonder if that had anything to do with the shift in plans.
wayne
Yeah, I wonder who took some of them.....
If there is something I missed, tell me about it please.
Fine, but I didn't think we were that far into disagreement on this one that a "truce" was even necessary. In fact, I thought we were sort of agreeing.....
The only difference between those stations and Nostrand is that at Nostrand the local tracks were lowered to allow expess trains to stop at Nostrand.
Okay, that's where we disagree. In fact, look at the photos again. We agree that the set-up was for a "local" station originally. The part of Nostrand that looks like all the other local stations, is the lower level, which was like all the other stations, and looks like all the other stations. The upper express level looks like all the other IND station's mezzanines. The upper level is not what looks like the other station platforms. If no mezzanine was planned for Nostrand, and they were going to make it a local station originally, with no mezzanine, and then the plans changed during construction to make it an express station, it would be the UPPER level that would look like all the other local platforms on the line. This is why I am 99% sure that Nostrand was plannedoriginally as a local station with a mezzanine originally, and the mezzanine was converted to the express platforms when the plans changed during construction.
I will name four examples for now at least:
1. The stations with their acme layout and modern themed design.
2. The rolling stock (both the R-1/9's and R-10's).
3. The "A" line in general and as thrilling it can be.
4. Express runs along 8th Avenue & Central Park West ("A" & "D"), 6th Avenue between 34th-West 4th Streets ("B" & "D"), Fulton Street ("A")and Queens Boulevard ("E" & "F").
Yeah...I am a fan of the IND...and proud of it at that!!!
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
Director: Andrei Konchalovsky
Format: Color, Closed-captioned, NTSC
Studio: Mgm/Ua Studios
Video Release Date: July 16, 1996
VHS Features:
NTSC format (US and Canada only. This VHS will probably NOT be viewable in other countries. Read more about VHS formats.)
Color, Closed-captioned, NTSC
Other Formats: DVD widescreen
links
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/RunawayTrain-1017998/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6304084293/104-1280100-0539964?v=glance
What's that old saying that was made into a 'Twighlight Zone' episode: "People are Alike All Over"?
No Word on Whether Coat Sustained Any Stab Wounds
You do realize that will only encourage gang members to kill more often, as they now have nothing to lose?
Sherlock
Sherlock
So your question is really "how could today's system be more efficient"?
Even that depends on when you're asking the question. In you asked it during the '70s, when times were especially tough, you would have thought that the heavy trunk A Line on Fulton Street Brooklyn was a mistake. Now the line more justifies the extensive local and express service seven days a week.
But to actually answer your question...
I think I would have a more balanced system so that service reached more areas and was less concentrated on other areas--i.e., more lines to the northeast Bronx, southeast Brooklyn, much of Queens. Some redundancy wouldn't be built--no Sea Beach AND West End in that area of Brooklyn (if it weren't already built--Don't hurt me, Fred!). But I might round out the Bay Ridge area service by having the R turn east at Fort Hamilton and continue to Coney Island.
No self-competition (4 and D lines adjacent in the Bronx), and so on.
Structurally, the biggest change I would make in planning would be to limit the length (from CBD) of conventional local-express subway lines. I would have more regional lines on the order of Washington Metro with frequent stops in CBD areas and limited stops in further out areas. I would attempt to eliminate the "get to work sometime during your lifetime at a cheap price on the subway or get there really fast for 4X the price on an infrequently run commuter line."
Local services beyond, say, a ten mile radius of CBD would be light rail distributers wherever feasible--IOW, I would return more to the BMT Corp. philosophy of integrated mass transit. Even the Boartd of Transportation intended to keep 13 Brooklyn trolley lines before they realize they could get rid of them all.
Which 13?
In fact, I guess current bus fans might ask "which are the 13 busiest bus lines that could use the ability to run light rail trains" (or at least two-car lash-ups)?
I always wonder how something like that would have changed the neighborhoods had it been built. Utica Avenue might have turned more like Broadway in terms of apartments. (especially when it snows I wish they had built that line)
A major street like Flatbush Avenue I always wonder how it ended up so skinny.
--------
The way most of the subways lines today do their jobs, but if I had a chance to redesign it, I would make a few more lines that didnt go into manhattan.
-Some east west lines that cut across Brooklyn
-The old Bay Ridge line in use, down to the water (Similar set up to South Ferry for the Bay Ride Ferry to Manhattan, issue with that ferry is accessing in on the Brooklyn end)
-I like the express track of the Sea Beach, would have continued it easr under Ave U to Kings Plaza
-Access more of Queens, extend the N into La Guardia Airport, 2 branches on into the Bronx, the other to Flushing and further out to College Point.
- North South line on the eastern side of Queens, a line bet Jamaica and Flushing
To this day I still dont get Staten Island, where would a line benefit it, and with all the hills how, Victory Blvd then south under Richmond Ave
-The Second Ave, a branch through Randalls Is, a stop at Dowling Stadium for events use, then connecting with the N in Queens
The section of the LI railroad that runs pass the M to LI City, annex that as a line into Manhattan under 34th Street
Redesign the L route, or at least make most of the entrances more accessable
The transit plans themselves are dated in 1939 and are a revised form of the 1929 IND Second System plan with some additions and omissions.
Hope this helps!
Was there ever any outrage at te idea of the line cutting through Central Park?
You have to set some ground rules for different scenarios, however. For example, imagine it is about 1900, the elevated lines already exist, and you can start designing underground lines. One scenario is to follow the historical periods of original IRT/Dual Contracts/IND/post-war eras, but allow for your own judgments. (Is it worth connecting the IRT to the elevated lines? Can you know in 1900 that these connections will become obsolete?)
Or do forget about the elevated lines and start designing an integrated underground system from the beginning?
My own doodlings with this show that the first scenario (IRT-BMT-IND, etc.) usually leads towards a system pretty close to the present one. The second scenario probably allows for more radical changes.
The elevated system did have some odd features - why were the Second and Third Avenue els built a block apart? Yet for the time it was quite advanced, far beyond any other urban system in the world (except perhaps London).
Yes, there should have been - still should be - a rail connection from New York into the Palisades area of New Jersey.
I've walked many times from Fort Lee south, to Hoboken and J.C. It doesn't look exactly similar (less brick apartments) but the density comes pretty close to Brooklyn, on average. Going dwon Palisade(s?) Avenue for instance. It's sort of a middle zone between the very high density large residential buildings fronting the river, and the gradual slide towards a more typical suburban pattern to the West. I've always enjoyed that stretch of cityscape.
It is definitely up to the levels of population that would support heavy rail transit lines. But I guess the amalagamation of Greater New York did have its benefits concerning this, as on the Jersey side there are seemingly dozens of seperate munincipalities along the stretch roughly opposite to Manhattan Island. Too many to enable,, say, a Hudson County subway matrix.
Oh well. At least now there's the HBLRT line. So there is a shot at starting such a system.
- Broadway
- Lexington Av
- 2nd Av
At 66th St there would be a flying junction on the Broadway Line by which both local and express could access the 2 track Broadway and 9th Av subways through midtown.
A similar junction would be situated at 59/2, where a 2 track 59th St - 6th Av Line would branch off and the 2nd Av Line South of that point becomes 2 track.
Another junction like this would be at 23/Lex where 2 track subways would continue under Park Av - Lafayette St and under 23rd St - Av C - E Bway.
Yet another junction like this would merge the 6th and 9th Av Lines at Christopher/Hudson Sts into a 4 track main line, 2 tracks of which would head across Canal St and the South Side of the Manhattan Bridge. The other 2 tracks would continue down W Bway and Greenwich St to South Ferry.
The Broadway Line would also continue to South Ferry.
The Lafayette St Line would run over the Brooklyn Bridge.
The 2nd Av Line would go over the North Side of the Manhattan Bridge.
The E Bway Line would continue under Park Row and Pearl St to South Ferry.
I have to ask before coming up with my thoughts on the matter: Was the original Metropolitan Line in London built following streets or did it cut a swath that was then covered?
Following streets. If you look at the extract from the 1835 Dawson map below, the "New Road" (now the Marylebone Road) will become the route of the Met.
If there was no subway, New York would be like Detroit, or Los Angeles.
I have designed just that. What If.
It follows certain sets of rules that I set forth before drawing it.
1) all Manhattan Locals stay (for the mostpart) in Manhattan.
2) all trains from the boros are Express in Manhattan.
3) there are several transit hubs the most interesting being Brooklyn Center and South Ferry.
Needless to say, if I were to draw this today, I would do it a little diferently. In this map I started in the hinterlands and worked my wan into the city. The next time I try this I will start in the city and work my way out.
Since you are interested, take a look and tell me what you think.
Click on the map to display details of neighborhoods. Since you are a kid (ie somebody under 33 - sorry Mr. Pig) you should probably get yourself a copy of MS Streets and Trips if you do not alread have it, for it is a great way to draw subway maps.
I have not updated my stuff in some time, so the links to a forum board are long since dead. The file download is for .est files that will only display with MS Streets and Trips, but if you have that, you should be able to view the entire What If map in any scale you like.
I have not checked it out recently, so let me know if it does or doesn't work.
Elias
Everyone loves to show off their fantasy routes. :)
8th Avenue Division
A1 - 155 St, Manhattan to Atlantic Avenue, Brooklyn, 8th Ave. Local in Manhattan, Tillary St/Ashland Pl local in Brooklyn (Operates 24/7)
A2 - Gun Hill Rd, The Bronx to Stillwell Av-Coney Island, Brooklyn, 3 Ave-161 St Local in Bronx, 8th Av Express in Manhatttan, Coney Island Ave Express in Brooklyn. (Note: only operates Coney Island Express during rush hours. All other times operates as Coney Island Ave Local)
A3-Reservoir Av, Bronx to Union Tpke, Queens, Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd Express in Bronx, 8th Ave Express in Manhatttan, Tillary St/Myrtle Ave Express in Brooklyn and Queeens. (Note: Only operates as express outside of Manhatttan during rush hours.)
A4-155 St, Manhatttan to Union Tpke, Queeens, 8th Av Local in Manhatttan, Tilllary St/Myrtle Av Local in Brooklyn & Queens. (operates rush hours only)
A5-Reservoir Av, Bronx to Stilllwell Av-Coney Island, Brooklyn, M.L.K. Jr. Blvd Local in Bronx, 8th Av Local in Manhatttan, Coney Island Av Local in Brooklyn (operates rush hours only)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
7th Avenue/Broadway Division
B1 - Pelham Bay Pk, Bronx to 180 St-St Albans, Queens, Westchester Av Express in Bronx, B'way-7th Av Express in Manhattan, Flatbush Av-Eastern Pkway/Pitkin Ave Express in Brooklyn, Linden Blvd Local in Queens. (Note: operates as local in Bronx and Brooklyn on weekends and during nights.)
B2 - 261st St, Bronx to Fountain Ave, Brooklyn, Broadway-7th Av Local in Bronx and Manhattan, Flatbush Av-Eastern Pkway/Hegeman Av Local in Brooklyn (operates 24/7)
B3 - Pelham Bay Pk, Bronx to South Ferry, Manhattan, Westcher Av Local in Bronx, B'way-7th Av Local in Manhattan. (does not operate during nights)
B4 - 261st St, Bronx to Euclid Ave, Brooklyn, B'way-7th Av Express in Bronx and Manhattan, Flabush Av-Eastern Pkway/Pitkin Av Local in Broooklyn. (operates weekdays only)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Madison Avenue Division
C1 - 208th St, Bronx to 97th Av, Queens, Concourse Local in Bronx, Madison Av Express in Manhattan, Flabush Av/Fulton St Express in Brooklyn, Jamaica Av Local in Queens (only operates as Flabush/Fulton Express on weekdays, all other times, local in Brooklyn)
C2 - Edson Av, Bronx to South Ferry, Manhattan, Southern Blvd Local in Bronx, Madison Av Local in Manhattan. (operates 24/7)
C3 - Edson Av, Bronx to B'way Jct-East NY, Brooklyn, Southern Blvd Express in Bronx, Madison Av Express in Manhattan, Fulton St Local in Brooklyn. (operates weekdays only)
----------------------------------------------------------------=----
2nd Avenue Division
D1`- 233rd St, Bronx to Stillwell Av-Coney Islad, Brooklyn, Boston Rd Express in Bronx, 2nd Av Express in Manhattan, Flabush Av/Brighton Express in Brooklyn. (operates 24/7)
D2 - 241st St, Bronx to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn, White Plains Rd/Boston Rd Local in Bronx, 2nd Ave Local in Manhattan, Flabush Av/Brighton Local in Brooklyn (operates 24/7)
D3 - Harding Av, Bronx to South Ferry, Manhattan, Westchester Av/Boston Rd Local in Bronx, 2nd Av Local in Manhattan (operates 24/7)
D4 - 207th St, Manhattan to Brighton Beach Brooklyn, St Nicholas Av/2nd Av Express in Manhattan, Flatbush Ave/Brighton Express in Brooklyn (Does not operate during late nights)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
6th Avenue Division
E1 - Braddock Av, Queens to 95th St-Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, Hillside Av/Queens Blvd Express in Queens, 6th Av Express in Manhattan, 4th Av Express in Brooklyn. (operates 24/7)
E2 - 102nd-La Guardia Airport, Queens to South Ferry, Manhattan, Astoria Blvd-31st Local in Queens, 6th Av Local in Manhattan. (operates 24/7)
E3 - 230th St, Queens to Stillwell Av-Coney Island, Brooklyn, Jewel Av/Queens Blvd local in Queens, 6th Av Local in Manhattan, 4th Av/New Utrecht Av Local in Brooklyn. (operates 24/7)
E4 - 102nd St, Queens to Stillwell Av, Brooklyn, Astoria Blvd-31st St Express in Queens, 6th Av Local in Manhattan, 4th Av/New Utrecht Av Express in Brooklyn. (Operates rush hours only)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Centre Street Division
F1 - Mott Av-Far Rockaway, Queens to Wall St, Manhattan, Rockaway Express in Queens, Broadway Express in Brooklyn, Centre St Express in Manhattan. (Note: operates as local in Brooklyn and Queens during nighs.)
F2 - 69th St, Queens to Wall St, Manhattan, Flushing Av/Broadway Local in Queens and Brooklyn, Centre St Local in Manhattan. (Operates 24/7)
F3 - Beach 116ths St-Rockaway Pk, Queens to Chambers St, Manhattan, Rocakaway Local in Queens, Broadway Local in Brooklyn, Centre St Local in Manhattan. (Does not operate during nights)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
14th Street Division
G1 - Flatbush Av/Utica Av, Brooklyn to 8th Av, Manhattan, Flatlands Local in Brooklyn, 14th St Local in Manhattan. (operates 24/7)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
42nd Street Division
H1 - 154th St, Queens to 10th Av, Manhattan, Whitestone/Roosevelt Av Local in Queens, 42 St Local in Manhattan. (operates 24/7)
H2 - 41st Av-Bayside, Queens to 10 Av, Manhattan, Bayside/Roosevelt Av Express in Queens, 42 St Express in Manhattan. (Operates 24/7)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown Division
I1 - Woodhaven Blvd, Queens to Boro Hall, Brooklyn, Queens Blvd/Broadway Local in Queens, Union-Lafeytte Aves. Local in Brooklyn. (Operates 24/7)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sherlock
If I were building FRESH from scratch, it would have to be more like BART or MARTA, with trunk lines along Atlantic, Queens, Concourse, etc. and perhaps a loop under the FDR and West Side Highway, with stubs or crosstown connectors in Manhattan. To have a Madison Ave and 7 Ave line built now -- my god, imagine.
It is impossible to go east to west in The Bronx - now mainly due to the situation at the GWB with all trucks having to use the upper level. Even before 9/11, it was difficult to go from east to west in the upper reaches of The Bronx and Manhattan.
Sherlock Holmes
It's a standard IRT local station, one level down, no underpass. It's also offset, so the uptown platform is much further north than the downtown. Thus the downtown is directly adjacent to, and connects with, the IND, while the uptown doesn't (until they build the propsed passageway).
Or maybe I just read that as one possible solution.
David
More than the court, Hevesi's about face proves the point. Far from hiding the fact that the MTA is rolling in hidden money, he now points out (correctly this time) that the MTA, at the behest of the Governor and State Legislature, is rolling in debt and unfunded pension liabilities.
The crime was not raising the fare in 2003. It was failing to raise the fare steadily in the 1996-2003 period, especially given all the discounts provided, deleting state pay-as-you-go funding from the last two capital plans, not putting enough money into the pension plans, and having the state legislature hand out a pension enhancement to boot. The consequences of this are a surprise to no one.
You would not let a foot doctor perform open heart surgery on you
It would have been funny to see what he strapangers campaign's reactions to all the service cuts that would have resulted from the MTA loosing the case
Well not really funny
BTW Where did this happen?
BTW, that's what is called 'Unfare Control' ;-)
I also am curious as to where this happened, but just to clarify on your statement, they did reopen the old abandoned mezzanine at Lorimer Street recently. It is operated by HEET only. Marcy also has a HEET entrance/exit at the west end of the station.
It was Fulton Street, at the south end of the southbound J/M/Z platform. There is one old HXT and about 4-5 turnstiles, and the turnstiles were facing a locked gate.
I am going to hold a contest on my site's Galllery. It's open to any members of the gallery. It will be judged by me, unless I decide to enter, then I will see if I can get some judges.
If you are not a member, become one by Clicking Here.
The submission period is any photo taken yesterday (12/5), or today (12/6). Good Luck to anyone who decides to enter!
The winner will be imortalized with a wing on my website regarding their snowy pics!
John
Does that include 12/5/02?
The only difference between last year and this year is that last year the Redbirds ran.
12/05/02 was not "yesterday."
You must be a member of the gallery to play.
Good Luck!
Contest
Been discussed in detail on a another thread a while back. Try searching with the keyword snow and you might find it.
It's the obvious. In Plan 4 every train that can be brought underground is brought underground. No express service in many places where you would normally expect it, like the Broadway and 4th Ave BMT lines, because trains are stored there.
Plan 2 - Temperatures forecast at 10 F and below.
- G.O.'s and work trains will be cancelled where needed.
- Operate maximum length trains on all lines except OPTO lines.
- Trins will be relocated to underground storage locations.
Plan 2 (MOD)
- G.O.'s and work trains will be cancelled where needed.
- At the deiscretion of District General Superintendent, undeground storage on affected lines will be in effect.
- Operate maximum legth trains on all lines except OPTO lines.
Plan 3 - Forecast of ice storm, sleet and freezing rain.
- Subwasy Storm Control Center at 370 Jay Street activated.
- Operate maximum length trains on all lines except OPTO lines.
- Local Storm Fighting Centers activated.
- All Ice Storm fighting equipment prepared for activation.
- G.O.'s and work trains will be cancelled where needed.
Plan 4 - Forecast of snow (5 inches or more)
- Subways Storm Control Center at 370 Jay Streeet activated.
- Operate maximum length trains on all lines Including OPTO lines.
- Underground storage in effect.
- Local Storm Fighting Centers activated.
- All Ice Storm fighting equipment prepared for activation.
- G.O.'s and work trains will be cancelled whre neeeded.
Do they mean shortening the train or cancelling trips?
:>) ~ Sparky
:>) ~ Sparky
David
I could've sworn there were only 10...
After Manhattan Bridge re-opens:
B Line +14 trains
D Line +16 trains
M Line -1 train
Q Line -14 trains
R Line +4 trains
W Line -11 trains
S (Grand Street) -1 train
Net = +7 trains
CBTC Equipment Installation >52 Cars
David
I was told by someone who saw the show that if you look carefully you'll see one of our frequent contributors wolfing down cold cuts while everyone else is gathered in front of the fire singing "Jingle Bells".
It makes a difference to me personally, and presumably lots of other people. If the GOs are in effect, I need to head out the door later today in one particular direction. If not, I can save time out in the blizzard by heading the other way, toward the L train.
And let me tell you, watching full-length trains pull through Classon Ave at regular frequency is a thing of beauty. I get a one-seat ride to Park Slope, to boot! AND I can transfer at Hoyt-Schermerhorn for a 6th Ave OR 8th Ave train. I say screw the Culverites, I could get used to this. :)
VC Madman
Da Hui
Stop bothering people and go drink a yellow milkshake.
Donald R Johnson a.k.a DJ
It was two in the morning on the crosstown line. It was fairly empty :)
I'll be taking the F again tonight from Classon Ave down to 4th, with the obligatory transfer at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. I can report back on crowding, if you like.
Nice to see you posting instead of lurking.
>>GG<< :>) ~ Sparky
PS-I need your email address for my mailings.
FTA report on Tren Urbano from 2002
Extremely doubtful.
First of all, the MTA is one of the few places left with such a rich pension plan that it in effect bribes people to leave young (police and fire are among the others). So headcount can be reduced quickly without any layoffs.
Second, lots of people have called for the government to "operate like a business" and downsize in tough times. But businesses downside because demand for their product/service drops, and there is nothing for some of their staff to do. The demand for public services doesn't go down in a recession, it goes up. What do businesses do when demand for their product/service is high but they are losing money? They raise prices.
If the MTA continues at this pace of lack of modernization thier may be a time that such actions would be needed. The result would be a big reduction in service.
As for demand improving in a weak economy. that analysis is flawed for two reasons
1) weak economy less people working thus fewer riders- the statistics for the months after the fare hike show this. the critics blame it on the fare hike but the truth is it was because of the loss of jobs
2) Selling a product at a loss does not push someone to sell more product and increse the loss. the reduce the supply of the product
Bus service would likely be where many of the cuts would be if any were to be implimented.
The MTA has hundreds of millions of dollars in savings that it could impliment without effecting prioroty one services that could be implimented in a way so that it does not need to lay off workers in large numbers. this is the way to go. The union should get thier heads out of the clouds and look at the big picture of job securty for thier employees
the Teachers union which I am a member of has thier heads so far up in the clouds it is rediculous. 99% of the stuff you read in the papers is so misleading it is not funny. Most of the stuff that klien and the mayor are implimenting is Great for teachers. Yes it makes the lazy olders teacher cringe because they can no longer coast through thier remaining years teaching the same tired ineffective material. Give me a student that knows his multilication table's and basic math vocabulary and I can teach him 8th grade math. The lack of kowledge leads to behavior issues
Sean@Temple
BTW, what is the R142S replacing? Not these.... They haven't been in service in many months.
-Stef
til next time
The Reefing project is done, cars will no longer be deposited into the Atlantic.
2 of the 58 Reserve Cars are currently working the Money Train out of Concourse Yard, 9020-21.
-Stef
I AM READY TO KILL THE FIRST VANDAL I SEE DEFACING A SUBWAY TRAIN.
I am just so miserable. And the sun picked a heck of a day to come out and melt the snow! Today, I can't go on the subway (I haven't for months) because mom has to sleep since she had work yesterday.
P.S.: I sent a message (via the internet) to the MTA discussing my plan to get rid of scratchiti.
Regards,
Jimmy
West side entrance of Columbia Heights rail station closed
Please use the east side entrance to the Columbia Heights Metrorail station as the east side entrance is closed because the escalators are out of service. We regret any inconvenience this may cause.
Luckily I don't use this station, so I won't have to figure it out. The escalator status page isn't any more helpful. Click here to see what it says.
Posted on:12/6/03 10:42:07 AM
Due to road conditions, NYC Transit has suspended Limited bus service. There are also scattered delays in local and express bus service city-wide.
Assume this also applies to NYCT and S.I.R.T. service.
Code to post photos:
<img src="http://www.whatever-your-new-url-is.com">
Code to post links:
<a href="http://www.whatever-your-new-url-is.com">Type the text you want it to say here</a>
Type it exactly as above, except putting your new www.whatever in the url.
I don't know the exact date, but I would guess around 1940.
Hint: That's G-5 No. 46 in front.
The train heads east on the Main Line while the Hempstead Branch goes off to the left.
Regards,
Jimmy
BTW the AirTrain has still been undergoing tests in the snow, today!!
Airtrain uses LIM propulsion with dynamic braking. It doesn't rely on wheel adhesion for tractive effort or most of its braking power.
Then there was their new feature "This Month in Transit History". What did they highlight?
1. Dec 23, 1946 had an all time record of 8,872,244 riders
2. Dec 15, 1980 German Shepherds started patrolling the subway.
3 Dec 11, 1988 Archer Ave Extension opens.
Then the had a cartoon Holiday Wrapper who composed a transit holiday rap song.
Get a look at this guy.
Holiday Wrapper
Did anyone get all they lyrics to 12 Days of Transit?
I got this much:
"On the 12th day of transit, the TA gave to me:
12 ???????
11 Buses Kneeling
10 Trains a Turning
9 Trains are leaving
8 ??????????
7 Train to Flushing
6 HiTech buses
5 Golden Tokens
4 Station Agents
3 Access A Rides
2 Metrocards
A Free Ride in New York City
Then they had another group of people singing "Frosty the Snowman" on the steps of Brooklyn Borough Hall. At one point, the camera took in the whole scene and I swear that I saw that there were about a dozen armed guards pointing submachine guns at the singers to encourage them to sing with spirit.
Frosty the Snowman
And finally they had some guy who was impersonating Al Roker the weatherman from Channel 4. The imposter weighed about 1/2 of what Al Roker weighs.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Was he still alive to see his son become so well known as a TV personality?
What is the closest the subways have come to Dec 23, 1946 which had an all time 1 day record of 8,872,244 riders?
THAT IS AN ABSOLUTE LIE! The guards said absolutely nothing about spirit. All they said was "You vill sink on za cant of zree".
Redbird Memorabilia was the ONLY segment worth saving via SP.
They always manage to stick in a FOOD segment in all the eps I seen.
BTW I too made some photos of my home station Massapequa Park today in the snow I got it on digital camera even though it was a tad cumbersome with my gloves on. My first time taking railfan pics!
Cool!
"BTW I too made some photos of my home station Massapequa Park today in the snow I got it on digital camera even though it was a tad cumbersome with my gloves on. My first time taking railfan pics!"
Congrats on your being initiated to railfan photography :) I'd love to see your pics, being that my house is only 2 blocks away.....
How cold is it ??????????
At 65 degrees, Hawaiians declare a two-blanket night.
At 60 degrees, Californians put on sweaters (if they can find one).
At 50 degrees, Miami residents turn on the heat.
At 45 degrees, Vermont residents go to outdoor concerts.
At 40 degrees, you can see your breath; Californians shiver uncontrollably;
Minnesotans go swimming.
At 35 degrees, Italian cars don't start.
At 32 degrees, water freezes; Minnesotans eat ice cream; Canadians go
swimming.
At 20 degrees, politicians begin to talk about the homeless; New York City
water freezes.
At 15 degrees, French cars don't start.
At 5 degrees, American cars don't start.
At 0 degrees, Alaskans put on T-shirts.
At -10 degrees, German cars don't start; eyes freeze shut when you blink.
At -15 degrees, you can cut your breath and use it to build an igloo;
Arkansans stick their tongues on metal objects; Miami residents cease to
exist.
At -20 degrees, cat insists on sleeping in pajamas with you; politicians
actually do something about the homeless; Minnesotans shovel snow off
roof; Japanese cars don't start.
At -25 degrees, too cold to think; you need jumper cables to get the driver
going.
At -30 degrees, you plan a two week hot bath; Swedish cars don't start.
At -40 degrees, Californians disappear; Minnesotans button top button;
Canadians put on sweaters; your car helps you plan your trip South.
At -50 degrees, Congressional hot air freezes; Alaskans close the bathroom
window.
At -80 degrees, Hell freezes over; polar bears move South; Viking Fans
order hot cocoa at the game.
At -90 degrees, lawyers put their hands in their own pockets.
Well, we are getting plenty of snow in the New York area and I'm sure that I'll wind up with around a foot of the white smutz here in Hastings-on-Hudson.
#3 West End Jeff
CSX is still rolling too ... them dash9's seem to be handling the white stuff handily ... then again, it's not the white clumpy wet stuff like we had last year this time. Usually when you guys down south int he city get hammered by a coastal, ain't so much up here and when WE get hammered by lake effect, it's a big yawn to you guys. This one's an equal opportunity MESS. :)
$175 that we don't have to plow our 1/2 mile road. :(
Regards,
Jimmy
#3 West End Jeff
Packer fans don't do that until the temperature is near absolute zero.
-Harry
These are old IRT plates, and Line T was the Third Avenue El. Judging by the high chainage numbers, I would guess it was somewhere towards the north end of the line. Unfortunately, I don't have single-line drawings for that line.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 Now Available!
5117 T: Reverse direction into one of the tracks at 149th Street.
6844 T: I'm not sure, I'll look it up.
Incidentally, the Gun Hill Road station is chained around the area of 800+00.
5117 would have been at the south end of the 149 St station,
middle track. 6844 protected the curve on the s/b local
track approaching 183 St.
Mark
Sorry, double-negative....No wonder none of us could get it......
Bill "Newkirk"
Was Miss Subways related to Miss Rheingold (beer)?
Anyone have any pictures to post?
--Mark
According to a few books I have read, it ended in 1976 because of complaints by women's groups.
I'm not sure if they won anything.
I don't think so.
No. Try the 'Net or the Transit Museum.
I have no pictures to post, but Ellen's Cafe and Bake Shop, at the S/W corner of Bway and Chambers St. lower Manhattan NYC was decorated with several dozen Miss Subways posters, where the walls met the ceiling, in the dining area (booths and tables). Ellen's at this location closed end of April 2001. I don't know where the Miss Subways posters went to. Hopefully the NYC Transit Museum, or another Ellen's franchise : midtown West 50 something street.
The last Miss Subways poster I saw was on the Canarsie Line, summer of 1972. It read, in part, in so many words, "and she's engaged to (don't faint, girls!)an orthodontist!" There was a sticker on it reading, "This ad demeans women."
"Miss Subways " was echoed as "Miss Turnstiles" in the 1947 musical film, "On The Town", w. Frank Sinatra and Gene Kelly.
Hell no.
By the way, if I can find it through the archives, you already asked this question and I gave you an answer.
And I did give you a couple of the R46 sign readings
I know most of the readings, but not every single one of them.
Question: How many subscribers to a newsgroup does it take to change a light bulb?
Answer: 275
1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed
14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently
7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs
27 to flame posters for spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs
41 to correct spelling/grammar flames
6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" ...
Another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive
2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp"
27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs
12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy
4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ
44 to ask what is a "FAQ"
2 to post reasons why the light bulb burning out is the result of a
government conspiracy
4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"
43 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs"
8 to accuse posters of being pedophiles
6 to file abuse reports on posters for posting off-topic
20 to accuse the OP of being a troll
1 lurker to respond to the original post 6 months later and start the whole thing all over again!!!!!!
Shouldn't it be 276? There would be one person to tell others to call someone or write someone and ask how to change the lightbulb. :-P
That's a "lamp".
That's right, real.
1 to blame it on PATURKEY and another to complain about politicizing the subject while then using the rest of their posting to politicize just about everything else in the world.
CG
Bet its red too!
2 to post reasons why the light bulb burning out is the result of a
government conspiracy
(it's IN there) ... :)
AGGGRRRRHHHhhhhh........
Those are LETTERS: "F" - "A" - "Q"
Therefore it should be an "FAQ" since the pronounciation of the LETTER "F" is spelled and thus sounded: "ef".
;-)=
HEY! what are you doing nit picking on my nit pick!
I think you are trying to make this thread even longer than it has to be!
: ) Elias
Elias
8 to accuse posters of being pedophiles
Most of the thread consists of posts demonstrating one of the actions Selkirk was describing. JM happened to choose this one.
Tasteless, absolutely! Insensitive, perhaps given your calling. Ad hominem attack, no.
Only reason why I posted it was to bring a little levity to some of the behavioral characteristics that have become prevalent in general lately. That's one of my own foibles, I prefer to remind gently. Perhaps TOO gently.
this was a fun thread Kev, let's do it again.
Q. How many MBTA Green Line Type 8's does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A. None, because they keep falling off the ladder!
Q. Lets try this: How many Type 8's does it take to drill the yard?
A. None, they keep falling off the ladder.
Barum-pum.
=========================================================================
Back during the war, when anyone could get a job braking, the D&H hired a new kid from Troy.
The Superintendent gave him his copy of the Book of Rules and told him, "Now take this and study
it. Keep it with you at all times on the railroad, because any situation that might come up is covered
in the Book of Rules."
So the kid takes his book, says, "Thank you, Sir, I sure will!" and goes home to study the book.
That night he gets a call for No. 7, the less-than-premier sleeper train from Troy to Montreal. He gets
on the train at Troy, and the conductor tells him to go back and make sure the lanterns are all
lighted and ready to go on the rear platform. The train pulls out while he's walking back through the
sleepers, and up around West Waterford he's walking through one car when he sees a woman's
bare posterior exposed through the curtains of an upper berth.
"Hmmmmm How do I handle this? Oh yeah, the Book of Rules!" So he gets out the Good
Book, then runs to the rear of the train, grabs a red lantern and hangs it on the berth. Next comes a
traveling salesman, who sees parted curtains and the red light, and gets the entirely wrong idea.
Needless to say, there was blood on the moon when the word got back to the Old Man the following
day, and the kid had a message waiting on his return to report to the Superintendent's Office RIGHT
NOW!
He walks in, and the Old Man inquires politely, "Son, what in the world were you thinking of
when you hung that red lamp on that poor woman's berth on Monday night?" "Well, Sir," the new
hire started, "you told me that anything that came up on the railroad was covered by a rule in the
Book of Rules."
"Yes, I did," said the Old Man. "But where in hell did you find a rule to cover that one?" "Right
here," the new guy replied. "It says, 'The rear end of a sleeper, exposed by night, must be protected
by a red light."
Next day the kid was a Trainmaster.
Given that I have been accused of having a "dirty mind" and I know wher the origin of the term "Red Light district came from, this tends to pop into my mind: "do they not know what the red light means, or are they advertising?"
The red bulbs predate John's latest cinematic adventure in Hamilton/Parkville, which just concluded.
We all knew in advance that Waters was filming in the area, as the neighborhood media was full of it.
Reportedly, the film will be of Sex Addicts and it was reported that at least one scene has naked ladies dancing on the rooftops. This, obviously, was filmed before the "white death" fell from the sky.
Personally, I prefer Barry Levinson filming in Baltimore. His last two pictures featured streetcars!!!
In all my OWN years, I only met one priest (I went to Graymoor, so let's just say I had FAR more exposure to priests and monks than many) who was a little "ummm ... curious" ... and in that case, all was respected and all was cool, no funny business. Only one I ever had any contact with and the guy was alright despite his own preferences. I've never met anybody that ever had a problem - 'nuff for the anectdotals - it IS a sensitive topic, PARTICULARLY among those who never sinned.
Historically, the so-called "sensitive" were gravitated towards ministries in the FIRST place, where if they were true, and they were celebate, were ACCEPTED as "fellow lambs of God" ... a requirement of the "calling," an acceptable "profession" for those motivated by their personality types as viewed by society. Reality is though, there's been one HELL of a smear campaign against Catholics, and no attention whatsoever to OTHER clergy ... that's the reason for the raw nerves I would expect. As someone who studied for the priesthood myself but didn't last the first "retreat" I know a little more about it than many.
Bottom line, I have no doubts that Brother Elias is QUITE butch, but with all the NONSENSE in the media singling out ONE religion (makes us Catholics sympathize with our Muslim fellow followers of God) we're all a bit touchy about the subject owing to all the false witness. Now leave me alone, and I'll put down this child. As they said in "Monsters Inc", "We've got a 23-19! ROGER ROGER!" ... and that's what we've reaped ... :(
Had to speak up, but yes, a line was crossed because of WHOM it was addressed to and the implications brought about by the very same out of control media that insists everything is OK, Halliburton had expenses because there's a war on ... sorry for interjecting here. Shows you though just how out of control our government and our media is lately where we've all been turned on EACH OTHER instead of Al Qaeda and Enron. :(
And as I said, in times of a theocratic government, DAMNED shame the nosnense that is being foisted ... against ALL religions except for Jerry Fallwell's "Donald Duck Church" (anyone who is a "disciple" knows what the "DD" reference means ... fact is, the problem is NOT unique to one brand of "J" ... but it sure does hurt when only ONE religion is singled out ... the "child molester" bit in what I posted was deliberately left IN because that claim seems to be replacing "LIBERAL" now that the wall is down, Putin has brought back the KGB and we can't talk about that, so "Child Molester" seems to be the big draw to justify the right wing these days ... curious indeed. :(
But I digress. :)
You can choose not to believe me, but I challenge you to show that such low down, unprovoked personal attacks are in my character here at Subtalk.
With the different variancies of the interent worked out, Your words are accepted.
Thanky You, my friend.
Elias
BTW, since when did monks start using computers? Oh, don't tell me I'm going to have to appologize for that one too.
The Rule of St. Benedict requires that the abbot provide each of his monks with a stylus and writing tablet. The shape and nature of these impliments has changed over the years, but their intent has not.
Surely one of the first images one has of a monk is a man in a long black robe hunched over a writing table working on scrolls with a quill.
We can scroll faster now.
From the beginning of western monasticism, monks were the only learned people around, and thus it remained until the advent of the printing press, which once again put books and learning within the reach of more and more people.
Today anybody can attend a university, and study in any of hundreds of diciplines. Our library has over 100,000 volumes in it, and since the closure of our schools here in North Dakota it has been specializing in religious and spiritual works.
The BQ section of the University Library in Dickinson occupies three shelves, in our library it occupies a whole room. Unfortunately, our library is not 'on line' yet, you must still look up a book in the card catalog.
It took DSU a whole summer to computerize its card catalog, and that used 20 students working full time all summer. Our library is much larger, and we have but one librarian, and he is using a rebuilt 486 box. While we are a member of the state library system, and the state would love to see us digitalize our catalog, it ain't going to happen soon.
Elias
Why isn't Charles G's similar post drawing any ire? It's clearly because of the heavily biased pro-Train Dude, anti-Jersey Mike agenda of many on this board, where one can do no harm, and the other can do no good.
You're taking all of this far too seriously. If you want to spend all your posting time taking offense at everything and ranting, go ahead - but it will be strictly your affair, not ours.
You don't have a magicwand that goes "poof" and makes everyone you think you don't like disappear, so just live with it - if you like being on the board, focus on what you like.
I am not a duplicitous asshole like you, and I choose to defend my friends when they are attacked.
You're taking all of this far too seriously. If you want to spend all your posting time taking offense at everything and ranting, go ahead - but it will be strictly your affair, not ours.
Why are you so obsessed with how others want to spend their time?
You don't have a magicwand that goes "poof" and makes everyone you think you don't like disappear, so just live with it - if you like being on the board, focus on what you like.
Which is exactly why when I am the subject of attacks from someone, I have to take them to task and expose these people for what they are.
I do not have a single shred of respect for you and have not for quite some time, when you make a response to any of my posts that is positive in any way, I do not want it. So if you don't want people to waste time on SubTalk, set an example: Don't ever respond to me.
No, only a little foolish sometimes defending someone from the proverbial windmill.
"Which is exactly why when I am the subject of attacks from someone,"
You are not under attack.
THAT is why you are a duplicitous asshole.
You post a lot of great facts and know your railroad history (and I bet you play a better game of chess than I do - of course that's not saying much). But there are attributes and abilities you will not possess now but that you will possess in 10 years. And that does affect what you post and how you approach people and issues. That's as true on Subtalk as it is anywhere else. Maybe on another site you have a better chance of finding the fantasy you're looking for. But in time it won't matter anyway. You're going to get older, wiser, gain perspective. You can't help it. You just will. It's inevitable.
That's it. Now, I am sorry if your feelings were hurt. I was rough on you there, wasn't I? OK, that probably wasn't very nice.
I promise not to do that anymore. Now let's move on.
I originally did not want to make this post, but I felt that somehow the story hadn't been closed if I wouldn't. I feel that by continuing to respond to you, I am only stooping to your level, a level that you have placed yourself in with your misguided ideals. Therefore, as soon as I am done posting this, I will resurrect my killfile especially for you. I know I have said that ignoring problems doesn't make them go away, but with you, paying attention to them doesn't either. So now instead of just taking the praise that you give me as worthless sentiment from a damnable individual, I won't see it at all.
You are entitled to your opinion, but the world does not share it. There is no society on earth which conforms to your view, and no court un any country which would rule consistent with your paradigm.
You need to do some growing up. That's not a bad thing.
You should have told the Founding Fathers that. Oh, but I forgot, you're not old enough.
As for not one society on Earth conforming to my view: Irrelevant. At one time, there was not one society on Earth that respected the equal rights of foreigners of women, or even of any men other than the king. If some class of people is not currently enfranchised does not mean they do not deserve to be enfranchised.
As for Ron, it's too bad he's done all of his growing up and remains a fool.
And before I forget, and I guess Ron doesn't realize this, but because of my age I am completely entitled to every right that is given to a citizen of the United States except for running for Congress or the Presidency, therefore if he wants to trot out his argument about "no society conforms..." he shouldn't do it against me, only Ron with his twisted dementia conforms to his view.
Is the Congress/Presidency an age thing or is it something else (I seem to remember some talk about Arnold Schwarzenegger not being allowed to be Pres because of being Austrian)?
Here in the UK, I have every right except running for office and getting affordable motor insurance. Come July 2004, I'll be able to do the former, but it'll be July 2008 before the latter. (Not that it matters - I have little intention of running for office and even less of ever driving anything more powerful than an 80cc motor scooter).
Now as for political office, the constitution specifies some restrictions:
House of Representatives: 25 years old, 7 years citizenship. I will be able to run in 2008 (there is no election in 2007).
Senate: 30 years old, 9 years citizenship. I will be able to run in 2012.
Presidency: 35 years old, 14 years residence, US citizenship by birth. I will be able to run in 2020 (no election in 2017).
Not that I intend to run for any of these. Also the Governor of New York has a similar requirement as president, without the natural birth part. One need only be a US citizen for 14 years. I will be able to run for that (I won't) in 2018.
All other political office for which I am a constituent has no restriction. Theoretically, a 10 year old could be elected to the State Legislature, but he would be unable to serve because he would never be able to take the oath of office.
Now you know how I feel when you and JM respond to his posts.
Train Dude is one of the few sources of ON TOPIC information on SubTalk. And he is a NO B.S. kind of guy
Jersey Mike is someone who has general knowledge of railroading and is pretty intelligent. but likes to stir the pot, sometimes without thinking the conssequences through.
Elias is a person who loves the Subway but has devoted his life to G-d. This devotion has caused G-d to call him to a lovely monastery in North Dakota, far from the Subway. Elias is a good person who has consoled SubTalkers who were going through personal crises with loving counseling. Elias Also accepted Jersey Mike's apology and called him friend. This forgiveness exemplifies the faith that Elias has in his religious tradition. Elias is one of those few SubTalkers that I have a great amount of respect for. You folks who seem to view SubTalk as a game and try to have the greatest amount of posts in a month don't even come close to gaining that respect. Selkirk TMO, Sea Beach Fred, Rhush Hour Sprcialist, Bill From Maspeth, Todd Glickman, On The Juice, Anon-e-Mouse, NIMBY killer, Train Dude, and of course, Elias are QUALITY people who I am proud to consider my friends. While there are others who are good people. they are the ones who stand out. You and Mike do not stand out.
Calling someone a child molester is horrible! You've really sunk to a new low.
I'd say more, but I've got to head off to the playground with a bag of candy.
5 threads about the upcoming Light Bulb Fan Trip
10 pages of links to Light Bulb Photographs
3 Discussions about IRT vs BMT Lamps
15,976 Discussions about the Lamps in the Second Avenue Subway
and
wait for it
2,003,456 discussions about the possible installation of light bulbs at 76th Street!
Netcopping is OFF TOPIC!!! Go sit in the corner and think about what you did.
Please inform poster #618607 that he's anal-retentive.
Answer: 275..................."
Sounds like you're describing SubTalk !
Bill "Newkirk"
Q: How many SubTalk members does it take to change a light bulb?
A: One to change the bulb, and one thousand to complain that the talk policy is being unfairly applied.
Q: How many Elephants does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: One. They're not stupid.
Q: How many Republicans does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Three. One to screw in the bulb, one to screw the secretary, and third to screw the rest of us.
Q: How many moderators does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Two. One to change the light bulb and one to remind you that there are plenty of other boards on the internet where you can change lightbulbs, and that this is a place for the discussion of transit-related issues.
Q. How many Floridians does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Dont know for sure, they're still counting.
Q: How many SDLP polititions does it take to change lightbulbs?
A: None. They're already screwed.
Q: How many Congressmen does it take to change a lightbulb ?
A: Twenty-one. One to change it and twenty to form a fact-finding committee to learn more about how its done.
Q: How many quantum physicists does it take to change a lighbulb?
A: Its impossible to be certain.
Q: How many Kennedy assassination conspiracy theorists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: 15-One to screw it in, five to say he acted alone, one to say that someone hidden in the ceiling helped, one to film it, one to do an intense examination of the film and conclude that a) it was tampered with and b) it proves that the first screwer did not act alone, one to insist that the bulb was altered after it was unscrewed, three tramps to walk across the room an hour later, one to insist LBJ really screwed the bulb in, and one to accuse all the others of being disinformation specialists.
Q: How many Californians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: None, they all screw in a hot-tub.
Q: How many tech support people does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Well, we have exactly the same system here, and the light bulb is working fine
Q: How many tech support people does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Have you tried turning it off and back on again?
Q: How many synagogue members does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: All of them The rabbi changes it it, while the rest of the congregation moan hes going in the wrong direction if he plans to change anything and anyway the new lightbulb wasn't as good as the old one.
Q: How many computer programmers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: None, its a hardware problem.
For the Brits only:
One from Barry Cryer and Willie Rushton (RIP) when they toured together as Two Old Farts in the Night. (Well, only one of them told the joke, but I cant remember which one.)
Q: How many Jimmy Tarbucks does it take to change a light bulb?
A: One. The fat little bastard can stand on a chair.
Anyway, the story explains how starting in 1978 a group of railfans, among tham George Wood, a Conrail conductor, began to lobby for the use of the old paint scheme. Conrail demurred, but when Meto-North took over, the group, now including a Bronx railfan named Joe Trifono, tried again. This time, they suceeded in getting the state of Connecticut to repaint 4 former NHRR FL-9s that the state acquired from Conrail and was having rebuilt. The article quotes Walter Drummond, head of the NHRR Historical and Technical Association, as speculating that the state agreed because they felt "a little overwhelmed by Metro-North and New York . . I think they wanted to preserve the Connecticut history." Sadly, Mr. Trifono, who advised the state on the details of the paint scheme, never saw the fruits of his labor. He died of a heart attack in 1983 in his early 30s. The engines went into service in 1985. Later, the NHRR paint scheme was used in the engines used for Shore Line East.
Regards,
Jimmy
Thanks!
Dan
As some of you may be aware, Oren's Transit Page went down in September. I am pleased to announce that it has returned and includes many new pictures and features. New pictures are from the Washington, DC area including behind the scenes from Ride-On, New York, and Germany. There is also a complete Ride-On roster and a list of which Ride-On garage operates each route, plus all the pictures from before the site went down. I invite you to check all of this out at www.orenstransitpage.com, the same address as before.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
Please note: My e-mail address is still being reconfigured. If your e-mail is bounced back, please hold on to it and try to resend it in a few days.
www.orenstransitpage.com
http://www.orenstransitpage.com
BTW, tonite I rode PATH from WTC to Newark and back, just for the ride. Pretty enjoyable. Really dig the part through the middle of the Shared Assets Kearny yard. (Busy over there too.) And nice to be able to make the Lex Ave IRT-WTC connection again. That temporary station is gonna be pretty rough to use, however, during cold spells. Brrr.
That's a *different* smell.,..
Mike I'm not picking a fight [ ;-D ] but last I heard iron rusts. Anyway, as to the 'river' theory, that too was questioned because of the fact that you can smell that aroma a long way from the nearest tunnel. Ever use the end-of-the-platforms' entrance on 6th Ave between 31st and 30th Sts? I swear on a windless day you can catch a good whiff of the PATH scent UP ON THE SIDEWALK! (Must be a vent near the entrance.) Cudahy or someone wondered if the smell was caused by ozone from the electrical system.
BTW, this afternoon on my trip from WTC to NWK -At JSQ heading west I heard over the conductor's radio that a "cable is down near the Kearny pocket track." Sounded like they said it was partially across Track G. Anyways, we headed out and got to signals LA10/LB10 near old Marion Jct (parallel to Newark Ave near the Joseph Cory furniture warehouse). Sat there for awhile then continued west to the crossover switches at signal 753Z, out in the wilds near Kearny trailer yard. There we halted a few minutes while an eastbound approached on the westbound track. Up ahead a track crew (who had evidently just cleaned out the switch) stood by. The eastbound slowly approached then stopped. The tripper arm had snow packed around it and wouldn't fall! The track guys hurriedly cleared a space for it to come down, it did, and they quickly piled onto the head car of the eastbound. He cleared and we were on our way. Pretty cool!
I can't say why the smell would be pronounced at the 33rd St. station since there are no iron rings north of 12th Street, unless it is from air being pulled through the tubes.
The reason that rubber and the PATH Smell are similar is that they both involve reactions with sulfur - click here for some more info.
On opening day, the predominant smell in the downtown tunnels was recently-cured concrete. I expect the PA also treated the rings with the antibacterial agent as part of verifying their condition.
Anecdotal reports from around the time the system opened indicated that the Smell spread outward from Hoboken throughout the rest of the system.
Click here for more info on these bacteria.
I also wonder -if PATH treated the iron with an anti-bacterial wouldn't the smell have diminshed? (I don't think it has.) I also thought I read in the TIMES article that the PA had considered the odor as being produced by iron bacteria but then rejected this though I don't remember why. Maybe because the odor is present in parts of the system that are remote from the iron sections? Finally, do the old Steinway tunnels have the same cast iron sectioning?
I recall the Smell used to be much stronger in the Hoboken area than it is now.
The viewing area of each wimdow appears to be about six inches high and each of the three windows is the same size.
Does anyone have access to info that would confirm this?
http://www.rypn.org/Briefs/september2003/030912.html
Huh??
BTW, this shouldn't be a translation issue (unless you mean cultural translation) since Japan Times is an English-language paper. I agree it is poorly written, though.
I say we buy some space and send in pics that no one will know what they are pictures of since it will all be from the States. :)
The ad space is only one of the 12 fukubukuros. Photos will be displayed on one entire train each on the Ginza (6 car) and Maruonouchi (6 car)lines for 15 days.
The 11 other 10,000,000 fukubukuros include among others:
Having 300 copies of a 68 page magazine edited and published for you.
Travel on the Mediteranean in a private jet.
Statues of the "Seven Gods of Happiness" in pure gold.
I've also noticed that some department stores have fukubukuros as expensive as 100,000,000!
Track Dept will go out there with a broom and start 'sweeping off' the accumulated snow(in yards) that is preventing a good contact between the rail and shoe,signal dept will tend to the stop arms,and un-heated switch area's.
On the road they go out with snow fighting equipment,maybe an old R12-with a special shoe that spray's alchoal on the third rail not to get it drunk- but to keep it from freezing over.
Yes it's a good time for OVERTIME-for xmas. then head over to G.C. museum store and spend it all!
Were there ever tests done to simulate snow conditions? I SWEAR I've seen a photo somewhere of a R143, or a R142/A going through a set of tracks covered with fake snow.
Remember that subway documentary (not the one on the ultimate ride) on the Discovery Channel? That is where it's from.
It shows footage of the MTA testing CBTC's functionality in a simulated snowstorm.
For a moment I thought I was seeing things. :-)
I think the heat turns off after an hour even if they are topsided.
"When was the last time you saw an AD for I-95, or any state or federal DoT?"
They are rare, I admit, but they do exist for some roads (usually private toll roads). There are "fly Pocahontas" billboards in Richmond advertising the Pocahontas Parkway (VA 895), and there is some advertising for the Dulles Greenway. Dulles Greenway is much more of a private facility then any other toll road you'll ever travel on...they even offer their own version of frequent flier miles, or guest rewards if you will :)
Major advertisers are automobile makers and car dealers.
I think, if i did fly, I'd be on that first train out instead of sleeping in an airport for 3 days to be on the news.
NJT GP40PH-2B #4203 arriving Lindenwold with train 4812
Amtrak AEM7 westbound at Frankford Junction
Metro North ConnDOT MU car at 30th Street Station
Market Street El 46th St station
ditto
SEPTA Subway-Surface car approaching 40th Street portal
Route 34 Subway-Surface car at 40th Street
PATCO Collingswood station
PATCO eastbound leaving Collingswood station
PATCO was running 6-car trains with only cars 3 and 4 open. I got the same train (six Budd singles) to start my trip (Collingswood to Lindenwold) and to end it (Philly to Collingswood).
* ryan
Photos posted here in a little while.
* ryan
* ryan
FUN4U huh ;-)
Please share in my misery:-(
My left hand almost fell off, and my right hand froze to my camera. I literally could not move my right hand or remove my camera from it. This occured when I was photographing at Corona, easily the most brutal portion of my trip.
And where were you probably? Relaxing in a warm house, in a bed with an electric blanket...
Feel any better?
Unless you are nuts like me, and like being out there! :)
Parents up in Massapequa got some snow I think.......
The other is "New Jersey Trolleys In Color" by Joseph Eid & Barker Gummere. I have both and both are excellant resources.
"Public Service" is a lot thicker and covers virtually every single trolley line that ever existed in New Jersey.
"Trolleys in Color" has a ton more pictures, all of them are in color. It's pretty amazing, some of the color pics from the 40's and 50's look like they were taken yesterday!!!
You could probably order them from Amazon.com - go for it, they're really great books.
If I had to choose only one, however - I'd go for Trolleys in Color.
Used to be if you wanted comprehesive information like that, you started to look for sources and prepared to make phone calls, write letters and make trips to far flung libraries and repositories. You shared your own researches with knowledgeable indivisuals in exchange for access to the fruits of their schoalrly labors.
Now you ask a question on a bulletin board or you email someone.
I get inquiries like that all the time at rapidtransit.net. MOst recently I received this from a college student:
I am student at Texas A&M University and request your help for an analysis as a part of my coursework .
It would be extremely helpfull if you could provide me with the total third rail track mile length and the cities they are in North America.
It would probably be even more helpful if I could take his exams for him. I pointed him to some sources and typically didn't get a thank you.
Please forgive me, NIMBY, people are asking for info here all the time, and I and like to reply in detail, as do others, but the comprehensiveness of your request got me thinking. Imagine if their were Bulletin Boards a century ago:
I need to know all the Secrets of the Universe. Oh, and also the nature of atomic structure, space and time.
Please be detailed, and it would be very helpful if you could respond in German.
--TIA, Albert Einstein
www.freewebs.com/tstanyc
Until relatively recently (1980? or so) Brooklyn bus lines pretty much traced the former trolley routes. The franchises specified particular routings, and the bus followed them, by and large.
Lower numbered bus routes (before more recent renumberings) were never trolleys, with a few exceptions. Without looking it up, all the routes from 1 to 9 were never trolleys. 10 (New Lots) was. 11 and 12 werem't. 13 and above I don't recall right now.
When lines were converted to bus, sometimes small adjustments were made. Church Avenue changed its eastern destination from Canarsie Depot (Bristol Street) to Rockaway Avenue. It also changed its west destination. It was still First Avenue on the rollsigns, but the trolley operated right to water's edge on prow, while the bus ended (IIRC) at First and 39th, on the street. At the western end of Church Avenue itself, at the Culver Line, there was a small piece of prow for the trolley. The buses used this eastbound, but had to detour around it westbound.
Likewise, the Flatbush car ended at loops at Cadman Plaza and between Avenues T and U, the buses didn't. The Flatbush car went through Grand Army Plaza both ways along the east side of the plaza, the buses don't. And so on and so on.
Also, I want the exact routing b/c I'm kind of a historical buff when it comes to certain things, such as this.
That's correct. You can't imagine how rural that part of Brooklyn was even after the end of World War II. The Flatbush Avenue trolleys said "Avenue U" on their signs, but they only made it to mid-block between T and U where they turned on a loop around a little lunch stand on the west side of the street. If you walked up to the junction of Flatbush and U it was basically a crossroads in the middle of nowhere.
I personally like looking for transit-related stuff in libraries. I've found large maps, reams of studies and old books about things that never could be summarized, described or scanned into a message index.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Regards,
Jimmy
Hong Kong
:-)
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/96St1239
and
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/96StBC/PDRM2123
Or BMT. Yeah, the one in the Bronx. But it's elevated.
Brooklyn Bridge
Union Square
23rd Street
Grand Central
What the heck was that all about? I don't even wanna know what it did after 42nd Street, but I didn't care since that was where I needed to get off.
That happened on an R-40M W last Sunday. I got on at Pacific and the crew was instructed to run nonstop to 36th, but the R directly in front of us foiled those plans. (But, this being Murphy territory, we didn't make an extra stop at, say, 9th to kill time. No, we just hung out behind the R north of 25th and north of 36th.) At 36th I thought I heard over the radio that we were to make our next stop Stillwell(!), but we made all West End stops, so that must have been addressed to somebody else..
I was on a 5 that ran local from 14th to 42nd, then express on the local to 125th.
Announcement
Eastern Pkway
Myrtle
Essex
Canal
Are grade crossings being systematically removed via elevation or was that Mineola job a one-shot deal?
I remember when Freeport still had grade crossings.
I remember when they upgraded Merrick from hand cranked gates to automatic crossing gates. They did not upgrade Freeport, it kept the hand cranked gates, because, as my Father told me, they were going to elevate the tracks there instead.
The closest thing the came to a program was the elimination of grade crossings on the Babylon... First they did Merrick Bellmore and Wantaugh (IIRC) putting temporary tracks to the south of the existing tracks. During this evolution the M1s came into service, and so new platforms had to be built, and so these temporary platforms were all west of Merrick Avenue.
(I have vivid rememberances of 12-9s on the tracks during this time period.)
Eventually the elevated track was finished, and they moved on to elevate Seford and the Massapequas.
I remember the Herricks Road crash. A van load of kids (who ought not have had any elevated ETOH,) thought to pass a lowered gate, (after all the train will stop in the station, eh?) I guess they did not expect a NON-STOP train in the MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.
The Father of one of the dead kids was a county legislator who was OPPOSED to the grade crossing elimination (elevation- he was holding out for a subway elimination.) on the grounds that it would built a wall through town.
My remeberences of the Merrick elimination project was that it OPENED UP the town, with MORE ways to cross the tracks than before.
Oh well, you ellect your politician and you choose your problems.
Elias
Actually I *was* aware that one of the Massapequas was elevated earlier, but I did not realise that it was that early, nor which one it was. Put that really does not affect the rest of my tale...
Elias
Elias
Ironically, cab signals were on the line, but not automatic stops like today's ASC system, which had they been in place, would have prevented the accident. The engineer's lame reason for blowing through a signal or two was he 'passed out', but this dosn't make sense since releasing the controller handle on a '54 will dump the brakes. He claims the cab signal whistle was blowing when he woke up, and by the time he realized what was going on, it was too late. Uh huh.
After the Richmond Hill accident, the first version (3 aspect) of the modern day ASC system was installed. What baffles me, though, is the ICC report on the RVC accident referrs to a subway style trip arm stop device on the '54s.
It was reported in the press at the time of Richmond Hill, that it was common practice for crews to pass through stop and proceed signals without actually stopping or even slowing much. That could explain the rash of rear enders on the LIRR at the time, though realize also the MP-54s didn't have speedometer in them (and never did).
BTW, some steam locomotives on the LIRR had ASC on them, according to the the LIRR's ASC rules (issued 1951)
But, yes, the engineer COULD have very well passed out, slumped forward, and his body kept the controller handle pushed down into a running position!!!!
This is one of the reasons today's equipment has the alerter system instead of a mechanical dead-man feature which could be easily tampered with, or, as I mention, the engineer could have passed out and leaned right over onto the controller.
And as for that "legend" of one of the sliced MP54's being welded back together, I personally think that's a bunch of manure. There was so much damage that it wouldn't have been worth even trying. This is the first time anyone's ever mentioned that "legend".
Even this is not so much of an issue. A drowsey operator can drift in and out of "momentary periods of sleep" and still keep his hands on the controls. It only takes a moment, your eyes drift closed, but you are still holding down the control driving the train.
This is why I do not even like to drive a car after I have eaten. I is easy to become drowsey driving a car or a train.
Elias
Maybe, maybe not. But employee morale was in the dumpster, and the LIRR had been having a rash of minor accidents at the time.....
I've actually not seen many car switch elevators besides the boring SSAC freight types. But yeah, same basic design. On elevators, they get up to 3 or 4 speeds (level, jog, one floor run, high speed), though on an elevator, they are speeds, not power levels. Also, there's slow reversal - i.e. going from foward to reverse just stops the car. I've heard from LIRR oldtimers that they sometimes stopped the MP-54s in the yard by punching into reverse switching. No wonder those things had a bad rep in the later years...
Does the gate car have electro-pnmeumatic braking, too?
RVC came in 1951 (remember the nasty wreck in 1950. Freeport opened in 1957.
I think the last ones done were in 1981-1982.....
The Redwood platforms were the temporary platforms. No point in building a concrete monster, just to chew it up again when the line was elevated.
Before that it was on the ground. There were steps in the car, and you got off at ground level.
Elias
There was pressure and planning to do the most obvious grade crossing eliminations--in order:
Grade crossings in NYC
Grade crossings on the Babylon Branch
Grade crossings on the Main Line west of Hicksville
Theze are the areas with the busiest roads and most frequent trains. NYC grade crossing elimination began in earnest in the 1900 decade.
The first two have been accomplished (except isn't there a grade crossing in Little Neck somewhere?) and they've been nibbling away at the Main Line which really needs it.
Some critical crossings have been eliminated for years, like the Ronkonkoma Line over Deer Park Avenue.
File that one under "Some People's Laws". (You can also blame it on Dimocrats, I'm Sure, since Rekeeplikans would never have passed such blatently anti-business nonsence in the first place.)
: )- Elias
Is it possible that those roads were built or extended *after* the rule went away, or had some other exemption to it.
Or have I been smoking something?
There were similar crossings in CT on the line going to Winsted (that even survived the removal of the tracks). Maybe I have my states confused, but I think not.
Elias
That crossing on Rte 1 is in Edison NJ. I don't know whether it is active anymore either -- the last train I saw on it was in 1991.
CG
Yes, that's another.
Yep. Little Neck Parkway, just west of the station. While Little Neck Parkway is a busy thorofare elsewhere, it doesn't get much traffic in the grade crossing area.
As far as I know, the last grade crossing elimination on the LIRR was Herricks Road, which of course was a huge, long-delayed, far-over-budget fiasco.
Most of the line is adjacent to residences on at least one side. For whatever the safety value of elevation might be, no one wants a trestle in the backyard.
The trolley showed up, packed as heck, and I took some pics of it, but by now I was down by 43rd st for some reason. After that I, for some odd reason, didn't walk straight back home, I just kinda kept going. I wound up walking down Baltimore to the portal and taking some pics there. I wound up hanging out around the portal for a good hour or so, I even went to the grocery store and walked back down there, which meant I got to see 9087 pull onto the siding on the western side of the portal area for some sort of mechanical problem.
Here are some pics from that excursion:
http://photos.transitgallery.com/SubwaySurfaceKcars/adg?full=1
http://photos.transitgallery.com/SubwaySurfaceKcars/acz?full=1
http://photos.transitgallery.com/SubwaySurfaceKcars/ade?full=1
http://photos.transitgallery.com/SubwaySurfaceKcars/adb?full=1
Here's one from last night at the portal:
http://photos.transitgallery.com/SubwaySurfaceKcars/acy?full=1
I also saw a Philadelphia Streets Division plow train on Baltimore consisting of two garbage trucks with plows fitted. I was under the understanding that SEPTA was responsible for maitenance on the streets that had trolley tracks on them. Does this include snow removal? It's pretty clear from the pic that they weren't moving much snow, but there are some kinks and joints in the rail, what if they hit one of those and put the 34 out of commission? Who would shell out for the repairs? Who would do the work? What exactly is the rule on this? Cause I saw a SEPTA sweeper (sadly mounted on a Freighliner FL90, not rail mounted) go down the same street after doing a cursory sweep of 40th St portal last night.
Anyway, here's the pic:
http://photos.transitgallery.com/OtherPhilly/aac?full=1
I was unaware of it, but while I was out, the Army-Navy game started at the Linc. Of course this brought representative military aircraft from the services for the obligatory fly-by. The Army had helicopters, two UH-60 Blackhawks and two CH-47 Chinook helicopters in a line ahead formation by the time they passed over West Philadelphia. I saw the Navy's representatives, 4 F/A-18C Hornet fighers much more often, hearing them while taking that first picture at 43rd and Baltimore, later seeing and photographing two of them at 42nd and Baltimore, and finally seeing and again photographing (this time very poorly) all four of them in a diamond formation from Woodland at the southern tip of 40th St portal. On the second pic, please excuse the quality, the only warning I had was a slight dull roar that I dismissed as a trolley coming out of the portal, I turned around when it changed pitch and saw a Northwest A320 type at what looked like 3000ft in a 30 degree bank to the northeast and then four grey shapes come across at some 500 feet or so, heading directly for the sports complex. I also got no usable pictures of the helicopters from Army, they came by like 5 minutes later, and passed lower than the F/A-18s just north of Woodland Cemetary, so I was unable to take a picture of them through the thick trees.
Here's those two pics of the F/A-18s:
42nd and Baltmore, with a Subway Surface trolley overhead support:
http://photos.transitgallery.com/OtherPhilly/aab?full=1
Here the four of them are later at 40th St portal, looking northeast along Woodland, they look like a bird framed by the trolley catenary wires right next to the trees, I swear there were four of them.
http://photos.transitgallery.com/OtherPhilly/aad
I thought the rule on trolleys maintaining streets was an old school thought and they don't operate like that anymore, but I could be wrong. I would assume the plow isn't flush against the ground, but then i'm wrong again. I think if it's a snow emergency route, they'd probably plow it no matter what, or other through routes. I don't think, however, that these highly paid(no joke) plow drivers who are probably making double-time are fully aware of what to do with the tracks. If something breaks, I imagine it will be like every other city department in the city. No one will take responsibility and a lengthy battle will ensue with service suspensions/problems/lawsuits.
What If The AM (M) train ran EXPRESS to Bay Ridge, and then Local back to Manhattan. That would make more trains available to carry passengers into the city with the quickest turnaround possible for the (M) train.
What would you suggest for the PM rush? Local to Bay Parkway and then Express back to Manhattan? I would opt for EXPRESS to Brooklyn in the PM as well.
Let us look at the intuitive reasons for a counter-intuitive express:
In the Morning:
1. Four or Five trains can come into service at Bay Parkway directly from the CI Yard, without using up platform time at Coney Island.
2. From a passengers persepective: a rider on the West Avenue Line will get on the first train to arrive at a platform (because it is cold and snowy out).
2A. If they catch a (D) train they have access to 6th Avenue directly; 8th Ave w/ a transfer at W4; Broadway w/ a transfer at Pacific; or Downtown w/ a transfer to the (RR) at Pacific. If they want the East Side they are SOL.
2B. if they catch an (M) train they will have access to Nassau Street directly, and with easy connections to the East Side line; if they want 6th Ave, they can change for the (B) at DeKalb; if they want Broadway, they can change for a (Q) at DeKalb; and if they want the 8th Avenue Line, they can change for the (A) or (CC) train at Fulton-Nassau.
In the Evenings:
Evenings are Different. In the morning, you go to your home line and you take the first train to arrive. In the Evening, all of the Manhattan lines are in close proximity to each other, so you must first decide what train you want to catch, and then you have to go to the subway station or line that that train is running on.
So, if you are in the City Hall - Wall Street area, and want to return to a station in south Brooklyn, you can walk to Broadway and get a local (RR) train (which is already filled up) or you can walk to Nassau Street and get an almost empty (M) express train. That it is empty and that it is express will draw more people to Nassau Street, reliving Broadway of some of its crowding.
You can then change at DeKalb for the (Q) or (B) train; you could change at 36th for the (RR) or western (N) stations; you could change at 9th Avenue for northern West End Stations; or you could change at 62nd Street for southern West End stations or eastern Sea Beach stations.
And the last four or five (M) trains will return directly to the Yards without taking up platform space at Coney Island.
Elias
David
If they want the East Side, they can transfer at Pacific for the (4) or <5>.
1. We no longer reffer to it as the RR. It is now the R.
2. If they want the east side they can transfer at Pacific street.
Where's the PROFF!? I'll let you make all of the other letters into singles, but *I'll* keep the (RR) and the (GG).
: )= Elias
David
But it still goes to Astoria, right? :)
(Its getting deep in here.)
Elias
Thanks, in advance.
Where there plans to add a second 6th Av-Chrystle St service after or at the same time the old "KK" service started.
As for the present tense, I still think the V should be 8 car R32's and extended to Fresh Pond (and reduce the M to an off-hour shuttle) if it is not to go to Church Av. It also eliminates deadheading between Fresh Pond and ENY for maintenance. Nassau Street no longer needs all that peak service. Send the J to the West End line in lieu of the M, and all the R42's would see CI when needed for heavy maintenance without deadheading as well.
The "MM" was a regular green, same as "CC", "GG", "RR", "SS" &c.
wayn
wayne
The "GG" on the other hand, was light green only on the maps. Even then it was only the route line that was light green. When you look at the route description section of the '70s maps, the "GG" was in a dark green circle. All other mediums, it was dark green.
By the way, any MOD trips for you this month?
Perhaps. I also remember the R16/R38 rollsigns having the lighter shaded green CC, similiar to this R42 CC:
By the way, any MOD trips for you this month?
All of them, as long as the redbird trips don't sell out. I sent in my check/application for the 27th/28th 19 days ago, but they have yet to arrive in the mail.
wayne
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
David
I would venture to guess that the West Shore Line will be reactivated if there is enough pressure for it from Rockland and Orange counties. That seems more likely if the state goes with a Tappan Zee option without a commuter rail connection, though the two are not mutually exclusive.
As for when, I wouldn't hold my breath. We aren't exectly swimming in capital funds and a lot of promises have been made.
R-32.
Does this mean there is still some corporate denedent of the Penn Central in existance today?
If NY State goes with the other option which is to replace the bridge with a tunnel, then they will probably persue passenger rail service from West Havestraw to either Hoboken or directly into NY Penn via new Hudson river rail tunnels currently being planned (ARC).
Service runs daily 6am to midnight, every 90 seconds during peak hours and every three minutes off-peak. The fare to transfer to Metrorail is $1. Fares can be paid in tokens, coins, or dollar bills, exact change only.
So I'd think it would be equal or less during the day. There used to be a great site on the whole thing, www.trafficrelief.com but it's now a county government style site about the PTP and I am having a real hard time locating any of the ballot promises anymore.
Hopefully that's a start.
"Service Hours: The inner loop operates 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The outer loop operates weekdays and weekends 5:30 a.m. to midnight. Trains arrive every 90 seconds during rush hours, every three minutes during off-peak hours"
So, a minute and a half to every 3 minutes. Of course it doesn't mean you couldn't only have a wait time of 5 seconds if you have good timing.
From : http://www.co.miami-dade.fl.us/transit/welcome/facts.htm
VC Madman
Ultimate fan of Miami Dade Transit
A car ferry, like the ones from Port Jefferson to Connecticut. It would offer those drivers willing to pay for it ($20? $25?) a quick trip across even at the height of rush hour. With a car ferry there'd obviously have to be some type of staging area for the cars on both sides. So it would take some careful planning. I'd suggest the car ferry depart from where Atlantic Avenue ends. Seems to be room for parking around there.
And a passenger only ferry. It could leave from the Fulton Street landing. I'd love to see a ferry landing at the end of Joralamon Street but that would get the Brooklyn Heighters annoyed. Yet the Joralamon Street location is closer to the residential areas of Brooklyn Heights. Probably doesn't matter that much as wherever it was, a loop shuttle bus starting from LIRR Flatbush Terminal and ending at the ferry would be a requirement. And of course, Mr. Diamonds' tolleys would have been great for this...
If only to lay the foundation for any future rail tunnel.
Fulton Ferry landing is plenty close to residential areas like DUMBO and Concord Village(my old neighborhood). Also, Bob's trolleys will be serving that area eventually(atleast we hope). Passenger only
Red Hook. Another location served by Bob's trolleys, it is also residential(right?). Also, is there enough space for a car ferry? If so, then car ferry it is.
Bay Ridge. Great location. Near lots of appartment buildings and such. Used to be served by ferries from Pier 11 I believe. Also, in the long term(very long term), possibly passenger rail service on the old Bay Ridge line would connect to the ferry. I'm pretty sure there is space for a car ferry, so that would be a car ferry terminal.
Jersey City. Where about? I'm thinking the Newark Bay side. I have lots of ideas for this, but I don't want to put them up here unless you say you want me to. There are so many, mostly cuz I'm always planning really big.
For the first (and most difficult) problem, the only solution is what seems to be occuring anyway, i.e., siting of new developments at waterside. Or re-development of existing waterfront sites. In Jersey City, it's interesting that the current ferries have one landing at the exact spot where the old Pennsylvania Railroad had it's big North River Terminal. So by taking a ferry over to Lower Manhattan from there you're able to take the same trip people have been taking for centuries. Not many mass transit journeys can equal that history!
For the second objection it seems relatively simple enough to built indoor ferry terminals. Where the boat is inside the building before it stops.
Also, the idea of an indoors ferry terminal, sounds pretty neat.
Well, I found two maps. First one is dated from before the Hudson Tubes were built. Nice `cause it shows the other railroad ferry routes.
This other one is from the Rand McNalley online site. You can see the shape of the piers there were meant for ferries. The terminal was right about where the "Jersey City" is marked. Montgomery Street.
Now now. This is the internet, man. And that old map is chock fulla relavent data. So now you know bro.
http://www.hudsoncity.net
http://www.hudsoncity.net
English version
Did you photoshoped that photo?
Can't fool anyone with Arial, Windows's crappy version of Helvetica. :-)
When in doubt, ask a Mac!
I used to have the real version before but then my comp had post-blackout issues and I lost that file.
Plus, the subway can't go to the North Pole, only streetcars.
Santa says so.
Junction Blvd has a very small, but noticably more space on the right after "Blvd." Many station signs in NYC Subway are aligned left, not centered.
wayne
wayne
Regards,
Jimmy
Bud Light's "Real Men of Genius" commercials rule over all.
R-32.
Exterior:
The "A" units are 54' long. The "B" units are 51' long ("B" units are not slant-nosed). At the #1 end, the extra 3' is the cab area/fiberglass end cap. The front end is a slant nose version of the R142/R142A. The sides of the end cap are black fiberglass, and so is the top of the end cap.
The area around the headlights/taillights area is crimson red fiberglass. The headlight and taillight configuration returns to the way it was on the older IRT cars: headlights on top and taillights under them.
The protruding vertical bars surrounding the storm door (not extension bars) are also black. The storm door is black on the top half and crimson red on the lower half (Of course it's got a railfan window!).
Above the storm door is a EXPRESS/LOCAL/SHUTTLE sign, one of the words are lit depending on the type of train it is. The EXPRESS sign is in red, the LOCAL sign in green, and the SHUTTLE sign in yellow. On the left, obviously, is the T/O's window.
On the right is a color-coded route sign, yes, the roller sign may return. It also takes up the whole field like the pre-GOH R40's, R40M's, and R42's. Just below the route sign is an LCD destination sign which shows which direction the train is going (the back of the train would show the opposite destination).
The T/O's cab is a full-width cab. The "B" units have no cabs and the "A" units have two half-width cabs for the C/R at the #2 end at either side of the storm doors. The C/R walks from cab to cab depending on which side the next stop is to open/shut the doors.
The rest of the car body is stainless steel. These cars still get the roof-mounted H.V.A/C. system. Not only is it easier to check and repair, it also makes the roof look high-tech.
There's also the red-to-silver "dissolving" belt line which is now supposed to be on ALL cars ("A" units and "B" units) at the front sets of side doors (both sides). The MTA logo is under the front end area number plate. The side doors are black on top and red on the lower half. They're made of fiberglass.
The side destination signs have one space for the route letter/number and 20 smaller spaces to fit the route name. What I don't know is why the R142/R142A signs have 20 spaces and they still have the sign reading "LEXINGTON AV EXP" instead of "LEXINGTON AV EXPRESS".
Anyway, the TEXT is in LCD format. The route letter/number is in LED format like the R142's. Picture windows with vents at the top are used. Under the picture windows are the speakers. The blind ends have safety glass.
Interior:
The interior is supposed to be virtually identical to that of the R142A.
New things:
-When a train crashes, airbags are activated in the T/O's and C/R's cabs. A large red accident light and warning bells are activated in the passenger area of the interior and safety plates in the door insets are also activated. Oh, by the way, this whole procedure actually occurs when one train is within a foot of the other train thanks to headlights and taillights that have sensors to sense another car if it's too close.
-These cars will be linked (semi-permanent) in 10-car sets.
When they'll probably start being manufactured/delivered: 2009-2013
Projected manufacturer: Kawasaki
Projected lines (they may run on other lines): (1), (9), (3), (4), (S) 42 Street Shuttle.
-I hope they get AC traction motors. That whine is so ADDICTIVE! :)
wayne
I'd rather the greyish interior or the R143s. Looks better IMO.
Above the storm door is a EXPRESS/LOCAL/SHUTTLE sign, one of the words are lit depending on the type of train it is. The EXPRESS sign is in red, the LOCAL sign in green, and the SHUTTLE sign in yellow
What about Skip-Stop, Special, Not In Service, and Super-Express?
I joined the talks in early September, like a few weeks into the school year. I apologize to the community for not introducing myself. I came in quite abruptly. Sorry. :-(
-Ben Diamond (a.k.a. 4traintowoodlawn)
Elias
What's interesting to me was why the station was named Gold Street in the first place. Was there ever a time when it was a more important street than Myrtle Avenue?
Maybe they didn't name it Myrtle Avenue initially because they didn't want people to think you could transfer to the L there (you couldn't) but changed their minds because people would have a better idea where Myrtle Avenue was than Gold Street.
Just a wild guess.
Possibly. Also, there is no exit to Fulton st; the main booth entrance is on DeKalb, with exit-onlies north of there.
The ambiguity is probably also the reason why Nevins Street (IRT) is called Nevins instead of Fulton. Fulton is a much more important street than Nevins, but the IRT subway runs under Fulton west of Flatbush.
DeKalb is an important street, but it ends a block away from the station. It's not as important as Fulton or Myrtle.
The Myrtle Avenue Line has a NAVY station and the last stop (in '64) was Bridge-Jay. That would mean the Brooklyn Bridge.
The Navy (Street?) (is now seems to be called Navy Walk) seems a bit too far East to serve either Gold Street or Flatbush, and Jay Street a little too far west.
One might wonder why the Myrtle Avenue Line did not stop at Flatbush Avenue, until one relizes that it is NOT Flatbush Avenue, but rather Flatbush Avenue Extension at that point, and that IT WASN'T THERE when the Myrtle Avenue Line was built! The Manhatan Bridge WASN'T THERE when the Myrtle Avenue Line was built.
Elias
Another such example of this is Seventh Avenue South in Manhattan. This stretch of avenue was created specifically for the construction of the Seventh Avenue Subway. It connected the southern end of Seventh Avenue with the northern end of Varick Street. You can, to this day, still see the scars on the sides of some of the buildings along Seventh Avenue South, where chunks of wall were removed, and bricks were replaced, at the spots where the new avenue sliced through the Greenwich Village neighborhood.
And 6th Ave north of there was widened. In the vicinity of West 4th, you will notice that there are no old buildings on the east side of the street, and there is a profusion of pocket parks and buildings with their sides facing the Avenue. All remnants of the widening.
No, it would mean Bridge St.
Elias
Elias
I seem to remember the consensus was 15 mph leaving the station, because otherwise the signals can't guarantee it won't crash into the train ahead.
In any case, last week 2 #7 trains in a row came through Vernon Jackson Manhattan-bound without stopping. The first seemed to be moving really fast. I timed it - 15 seconds to pass me. 561' in 15 seconds works out to 25.5 mph!
And it seemed to be going a pretty steady speed too.
During the summer, I posted about a 7 local train I was on that ran express on the local from Woodside to Junction. By the time we were at 82 St, we were probably doing close to 40 MPH, and the T/O did not sound the horn to warn that the train wasn't going to stop.
You are witnessing trains being operated by idiots, who will only compain if they are taken out of service.
But the point here seems to be that some signals can tolerate higher speeds. Maybe some T/Os know which ones these are.
So does the MTA. I betcha they got radar guns same as the FRA, and *could* sit at th wayside and see what they might see.
Elias
As far as I am aware, the signals on the Flushing Line have not been upgraded to handle 35 MPH speeds through stations. The only station on the line I know of where trains were SCHEDULED to pass through without stopping was Woodside (express track). At least twice in history, expresses (at one point called "superexpresses") were scheduled to bypass Woodside. The last time was in the late 1980s, after the line was rehabilitated (the rehab that was done poorly and had to be corrected recently), and it ended because of public outcry.
David
No bets on a sure thing. They do, and violators get written up, pissing and moaning all the way. I've been 'gunned' so many times in four years, and they are still trying to catch me.
If another T/O wishes to go against the rules, then so be it. I just hope that he/she is in front of me so I can move up one in seniority when he/she is busted back.
If another T/O wishes to go against the rules, then so be it. I just hope that he/she is in front of me so I can move up one in seniority when he/she is busted back.
Absolutely correct, I calculated the average speed of the train. But I also perceived that the train neither accelerated nor decelerated singificantly on its way through. To be going 15 mph when passing the leaving signal and 25.5 mph on average, it would have had to compensate by getting up to approx 35 mph either before or after or both. It certainly didn't do that.
They'll have to wait a while. I've been the (more or less) patient watcher of many trains that skip Vernon Jackson, and this is the only one that was clearly going over 15 mph. That's why it surprised me.
or http://www.chron.com and link to Election Central, which has a Houston Rail page.
It seems that the rail proposition for 22 more miles (at $29,000,000 a mile) won 52%-48%. Great! I'm puzzled that that vote seems to have taken place December 4th, while the Mayoral run-off was December 6th.
The Chronicle and KHOU reported that the mayoral runoff vote and the vote for the LRT were both on November 4th.
//rolls eyes
As for children under 18, I would rather they keep away from this forum myself.
A couple cold, windy minutes later, train 4611 came along going the other way.
If anybody didn't see my snow photos from Saturday and would like to, they are linked here.
And he wants to participate like the rest of us.
At least he's not anything like CDTA.
yes, thank G-d
You have the CDTA syndrome too, I see..
:x
"anyone know what lines redbirds ran on"
Smith Barney did wonders for Franklin on the 1 line.
David
As an L train user (with other options as well), I'm of 2 minds. After the holidays would be better. But maybe it would delay CBTC completion by 4 weeks. That would be bad.
There will dozens of different G.O.s that will take place before CBTC is completed.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
He's a nice guy too.
Chuck Greene
While I fight a swelled head, I thank you all for the kind words.
--Mark
All you have to do is ask.
--Mark
I also see some people have left some positive feedback (thank you!); you can see feedback others left when a question similar to yours was posted in September of 2001.
If you have any specific questions about any of the videos, please e-mail me.
--Mark
Does anyone think that walking from Grand Central to Penn Station during rush hour with one bag would be worth it?
Depends on the size of the bag, though. A heavy bag would be a drag walking and a large bag would be a problem on the subway during rush hour.
Does anyone think that walking from Grand Central to Penn Station during rush hour with one bag would be worth it?
Worth two bucks? Your call. The subways are going to be packed during rush, though.
You could wait 20 years for East Side Access to finish :)
Just a guess.
1. It wouldn't do any good to complain because there is nothing I can do about it
2. It would give my friends on the Brighton a case of apoplexy that I am actually saying something nice about the Brighton, which, after all, is my second favorite line---even if no one else believes it.
Yes, until June 1, 1940, the Fulton Street el, subway and trolley all ran at the same time as far east as Rockaway Avenue.
Are there any other places in New York where an el, street-level trolleys, and a subway all ran at the same time on the same street?
6th Ave, right?
6th/9th Ave. Els (until June 1, 1940).
8th Ave. trolley (became bus, today's M10, in 1936).
IND subway underneath (opened Sept. 1, 1932 and of course still running).
Elias
Meanwhile, down below the M-D line, we got the white stuff too.
At the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, it's time for Santa's Tinsel Trolley , when the Jolly Ol' Elf takes over the Elmer Packie Shop and rides the cars, with gifts for the little ones began. The event runs for two weekends in December, this year the dates are December 6, 7, 13 & 14.
Before the event started on Saturday, we got to do the "dig out the railroad" act again. With Ed Amrhein and Big Jim, our ever-useful front end loader, the line was cleared in short work and streetcar operations commenced - with a twist. The City Yard, still dispatching salt trucks, manged to block the line north of 26th Street, so the cars used would be 1050 (Brownell 1898) and 264 (Brownell 1900) would be used, since access to our 28th Street loop was blocked. PCC 7407 and Witt 6119 spent the day in the carhouse.
Despite the media's constant crying of "Stay home, there's White Death falling from the sky!!!" we had 16 hardy parents and kids riding with Santa.
Sunday the line was opened all the way to 28th Street, so the PCC and Witt were the cars for Sunday. Lots more people came on Sunday and went home happy. One lucky visitor happened to be celebrating her bithday, so Santa was apprised of that fact and made her very happy - Santa knows everything!!
Amazingly, when we opened the line on Sunday, not one switch was frozen, despite the 15 degree overnight temps. We must be living right.
We'll do it again (Tinsel) next weekend.
On the local transit front, the bus system didn't blow away, but actually kept buses on the streets, snow or not. The light rail just laughed at the 14 inch total.
Off Topic part of post: The local football team demolished their rival for first in the AFC Central 31-13. Our local indoor soccer team, the Baltimore Blast, beat our principal rival for the MISL championship, the Milwaukee Wave 9 to 8 in a thrilling overtime win with .6 seconds left in the overtime period.
Life is good in Charm City.
New York Avenue 22 images.
G Route Blue line extension, 73 images, most are in the stations tunnels or on the elevated at Morgan Boulevard (G04) and Largo Town Center (G05).
John
(Speaking of which, the whole photo set, taken in April 2002 is here, and it mostly covers the CAFs compared to the Rohrs and Bredas, but anyway...)
Thanks,
mark
DING,DING,DING,DING,DING !!
You win !!
During the 30 or so minutes I was around the station shooting pictures there were about three trains in quick succession that were wrong rialing northbound. The same train is shown in the series of images shot from New York Avenue.
If you look at the first image in the series you will see one the trains crossing over at the M Street crossover.
John
The picture was taken from the bank on the left side of the right of way just beyond the third utility poll looking to the southwest.
John
wayne
I'm currently working 5 days on the Brighton local, but next pick will be working 5 days on the N over the Bridge.
Let's hear it for the bridge! Hip hip hooray! Hip hip hooray! Hip hip hooray!
Does that mean the R-68A's won't be on the N? Where will they be, the B?
As for where the 68As will be, we still don't have a clue.
I have a hunch the 68A's won't show up on the 6 or on the M. As for the N, your guess is as good as mine.
Incidentally, the Q local I didn't ride yesterday morning and the two Q locals I rode yesterday evening were all 68A sets. Where have all the 68's gone?
See post 613141.
I like this one a lot:
Sounds like a good subject for a letter to the PA. And NY Waterways.
I do remember when I noticed the voice for the first time, though, and made a mental note that it was new to me.
So am I out of my mind, or is there something to it?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
wayne
Have you been on the CAFs yet? I know you went a long period without coming to DC.
The old Rohr door chime is the same as the new one, the NYCT "R44" sound. Only the Breda 2's and 3's changed. I believe the Breda 4000's came with R44 chimes and voice announcements.
wayne
I was in Rosslyn back in August 1999 after Metro had cleared a delay on Blue/Orange somewhere in DC, and the first train (Orange to Vienna) to come through was packed to the gills with people. "Doors closing!" went once, the "stand clear" sound went twice, then the T/O came on: "Would you please stand clear of the doors!" Then "Doors closing!" and they were off.
Also, if anyone is interested, I have a recording of the "Stand clear" sound.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Shortly after WMATA opened back in 03 27 1976 WMATA spent most of their time working out bugs with the Rohr cars and the automated station announce system was a low priority. As I recall testing of the system was a significant failure. Needless to say the system was never used and the tape player were removed from the cars a number of years after all of the Rohr cars were delivered.
John
"This is a Red line train to Rhode Island Avenue. The next stop is Metro Center."
"This is a Red line train to Rhode Island Avenue. The next stop is Metro Center."
Some thing like that. As I recall WMATA planed to use well known local radio and or television announcers to do the station announcements.
John
I havent heard the recordings on the R142's so I cant say.
Arch Camble from WRC TV, Gordon Peterson from WDMV TV and some of the other Announcers from the 1970s.
John
There are eight samples of some voices.
I've also posted a sample of a train coming in to a station, which can be found on this thread, with the file, "entering 14th street.zip."
I've also posted a sample of a train coming in to a station, which can be found on this thread, with the file, "entering 14th street.zip."
The computer I am on doesnt have a sound card. I will have to fire up my ALR Quad 4 server to listen to them.
John
The book is #C-163
I bought the book, it was $34.16.
BTW, is there anyplace within the city where I can buy this book?
Can I find one in a Queens library?
Is a study book necessary to do well on the C/R exam?
The numbers from the T/O test were very discouraging. I am assuming for the C/R test that you have to be best of the best to give yourself a chance at the job.
To get in you'd probably have to score a 100.
I now have almost 2 months to study and prepare for this test.
I was looking in the book, and could answer most of the "common sense" questions right off the bat. With work, I'll know more of the technical questions.
There is some simple math as well, including reading schedules and intervals.
thanks,
tim
Parts of the station had papers all over the platform and tracks.
My Bin Runneth Over
Members of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers in the United States and Canada have voted overwhelmingly to merge with the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, bringing rail employees into the Teamsters for the first time, BLE officials announced Dec. 5.
The merger was approved by U.S. members on a vote of 81 percent to 19
percent, with 47 percent of eligible members casting ballots, the unionsaid. Canadian members voted by 62.4 percent to 37.6 percent, with 56 percent of eligible members voting.
The merger of the 35,000-member locomotive engineers and the 1.4-million member Teamsters will take effect Jan. 1. The engineers will be known as the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen, a division within a new International Brotherhood of Teamsters Rail Conference. In Canada, a Teamsters Rail Conference will also be established, the unions said.
"The membership has spoken and we are pleased with their decision to merge with the Teamsters," BLE International President Don Hahs said in announcing the vote. "Our members will soon see the benefits of belonging to the largest, most powerful, and politically influential transportation union in North America."
According to BLE, the structure of its union will remain largely intact, as locomotive engineers will continue to elect their own officers and hold conventions. Hahs said existing Teamsters locals and joint councils have a degree of autonomy, and BLE also will remain autonomous.
The vote ends an effort that was begun nearly two years ago by BLE
leadership to join the Teamsters. In February 2002, the BLE Advisory Board, which is made up of the union's top officers agreed to begin merger talks. In July 2003, the advisory board approved the merger plan and put the plan to a vote of the membership (133 DLR A-11, 7/11/03). Ballots were mailed on Oct. 20.
Hahs said the addition of the name "Trainmen" to the BLE name is significant in that it opens the door for trainmen--nonengineer employees on rail operating crews, such as conductors--to join the union. A BLE spokeswoman said the union hopes to attract trainmen who are now organized under the United Transportation Union. "The doors are now open and the structure in place," Hahs said. "Throughout
our negotiations, it was our intent and the Teamsters' intent to allow the new organization to represent trainmen under the umbrella of the IBT Rail Conference."
According to BLE, the engineers and the Teamsters have worked together in the past to organize shortline railroads. The two unions have worked jointly as the IBT-BLE Rail Operating Employees' Council, and since July 2002 have organized seven U.S. shortline railways, adding 700 new members to BLE, according to union officials.
Teamsters President James Hoffa said the merger means that "two great unions begin a partnership to strengthen our ability to represent workers across the transportation spectrum. The Teamsters have always had a vision for a seamless transportation union giving workers real power on the job and in the political arena. This historic merger brings us closer to our union's vision." <<...OLE_Obj...>>
BLE as a standalone DESERVED to die - let's hope the Teamstas put the former BLE leadership on a slow bus to Kearney. These idiots bargained away remote control, have consistently failed to defend their own, and have sold out at every turn. No WONDER the membership said, "HELL YEAH!" when it was time to vote. Coulda been worse. BofLE could have gone to TWU. (snicker) I think the membership will be MUCH happier with a REAL union. And if there's a strike, can't wait to see "bouncy bouncy overturn" with a dash9. :)
A google search turned up this article from Feb, 2002 on the BMWE website:
http://www.bmwe.org/nw/2002/02FEB/68.htm
With this quote from the teamsters president James Hoffa, '"It is my understanding that UTU severed its ties with the AFL-CIO for the sole purpose of raiding the BLE,"'. Does this mean that the Teamsters and the UTU were both attempting to merge with the BLE?
So I jumped onto the R train on the other side...which is the same one I saw when I left 71st Ave! (Yes I recognzied the R32 R and the lady C/R voice). Then I figured to change the 4 train at Lex Ave...what I didn't realize is that the 4 train had the worst crowd nightmare on the train...
Luckily I was still able to make from 71st Ave to Boro Hall in 1 hr :-)
Looks like the TA is making great effort on my $2
Wouldn't this be to your benefit?
If I'm still in HS I would love today's little RFing!
I'm aware of that. G (or F, in this case) to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, A/C one stop to Jay St, and avoid the "nightmare" in Manhattan.
G from Queens Plaza to Hoyt-Schemerhorn: 25 minutes.
Why are you spending $2 a ride? That doesn't seem very sensible to me.
It's an "expression"
I pay $70 a month.
LOL
;-)
VC Madman
Not that I'm saying this would be a preferable or even logical course of action.
First of all, if the fare was $100, the service (or lack thereof) would be the same. Whether the dealy is caused by a "sick passenger" or a mechanical problem, the result will be the same.
And you might say: "If the fare was higher, wouldn't the mechanical problems be less frequent?". Possibly, but you're still dealing with human beings, and human beings have flaws and weaknesses (like the higher-ups pocketing money meant for the purchasing of mechanical parts, or the possible laziness on the part of the mechanics). Here at NJ Transit, where most commuters pay premium fares ($200+ per month), sometimes it takes a week for a simple light bulb to be changed. And that is because the regular "light bulb guy" is out sick, and nobody else knows how to or is allowed to change a light bulb.
Koi
I count on you for feedback. We just put up our Subway Map
(Manhattan or Brooklyn Maps, so far) for Adults, Juniors and Kids.
We also put out these cool Map bags and wallets - you can see the gym
bag advertised "Gym Dandy" on lots of buses and subways right now.
I want to hear what you think? Do you like them?
Subway Grrl
http://nycsubwayline.com
I'm not sure why they aren't carrying them! Some of the employees don't like that style. You may have to order on-line.
Sorry I don't have a store for you!
Subway grrl
It will be a "snapshot" of this moment in time in August, when I used the most up-to-date map.
Subway grrl
I had been trying to get a company to print the Subway Map fabric for accessories for five years. Not many places are willing to produce for small companies like mine. I am so pleased with the way they came out!
Subway grrl
It used to be a lot, lot more, much later than New York. Since WWII they eliminated the grade crossings on Lake and on what is now the Congress Line, and several lines extended further than now with grade crossings.
Nope. The Skokie Swift is still very much overhead-powered. Conversion to third rail is progressing at a slow pace; right now most of the work is putting in feeder cables and doing signal and crossing gate work, I believe.
Find more info, including recent updates of work on the Skokie Swift conversion, at: www.chicago-l.org
Frank Hicks
I also got to visit the California State Railroad Museum. I was very impressed, but I didn't have a lot of time there. But one thing I have to mention is that I took Amtrak from Sacramento to Reno, Nevada. In addition to being a great ride with great views of the Sierra Nevadas and the American River, an interpretter from the California State Railroad Museum narrated the trip, giving anecdotes and information about the route we were travelling. I highly recommend this ride.
Mark
Mark
Just some random ideas...
Mark
What follows next irked me. The customer is shown standing apprehensively in the car next to the Circuit City employee. The customer is holding a boxed piece of electronic equipment in his arms, possibly a CD player or stereo. The car then darkens for a few seconds (a la the Redbird days when the trains passed over third rail gaps). When the lights come back on, the box is gone and the Circuit City employee's shirt is missing too.
The two then flash back to the store and the two are back in their original positions, the CC employee with his shirt back on. He reassures the customer that delivery of purchases is available.
The commercial is meant to be humerous, but as a subway rider and a NYC native, I found it offensive. To get yuks, Circuit City is obviously playing to the old '70's stereotype of the subway using old, outdated cars and being a haven for thieves and pickpockets. The subway has improved drastically since the '80s, both in terms of safety and equipment, and deserves better play in the entertainment world. I guess the old, crime-ridden New York is funnier than the new, safer New York.
Mark
Hell, it took me about two years to figure out that some cars on the A were longer than others.
I meant the difference between a 32/38 and a 44... stainless is stainless, but the other end of the car seems further away for some reason.
I always knew what a REDBIRD was, though :)
Heh, it's funny - to me these WERE The Redbirds. The IRT ones were "skinny" versions of these. It was only when the R30's were gone that I "got used" to the Redbirds we all know and love.
Regards,
Jimmy
I saw that commercial and I pretty much found it insulting to NYC.
But then Madison Avenue loves to bite the hands that feed it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, it does.
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe it's 'cause the show's creator Jerry Seinfeld is a such a diehard car collector.
wayne
Anyway, a work colleague of mine came into my office and had the following query:
Apparently, at times during the fall, only the first coach of outbound trains platforms at Glen Ridge on the Montclair-Boonton Line, which is his stop. The reason given for this is that in Autumn, leaves on the tracks causes wheel-slippage on the slight incline between that and the next station, Bay St. The train won't make it to Bay St. unless the locomotive can get a running start, which it would not get if it stopped normally at Glen Ridge with all coaches platforming. His complaint, since his stop is Bay St., is that this causes a ten minute delay at Glen Ridge, since all passengers wanting Glen Ridge must exit through the first coach, so some must walk the length of the train. My colleague is wondering why the can't re-position the locomotive at the rear of the outbound consist to solve the problem. I'm fairly certain the Montclair-Boonton trains are locomotive-powered, as opposed to MU's, but I've never ridden the line. That's my friends contention. Anyway, why won't his solution solve the problem?
BTW, apologies if this has been discussed in another thread. I just came on the board and posted without reading anything else.
BTW, I got an MOD late December fantrip snail-mail from the transit museum. Anybody going?
2. Yeah, this was in the news back in the fall.
3. We're all going on the MOD trips. You also didn't miss two trips that were going to be this past Saturday and Sunday. They will now be two weeks from those dates.
One thing is, if it's a diesel, then it comes outa Hoboken and NJ Transit prefers to keep the units and their ear-shattering HEP equipment on the west end of consists and away from Hoboken Terminal's concourse. But up until the line extension a Montclair Branch train REGULARLY ran with the diesel on the east end. It used to platform on Tk 1 at Hoboken, which is about four or five car lengths away from the concourse, up by the main PATH entrance.
All others that I recall were on the west end except in the rarest of occasions.
CG
http://www.septa.org/riding/slippery.html
The one thing I could think placing a cab car on the back would do is place a carload of passengers in what is now space occupied by the locomotive, which might speed the unloading of passengers.
Also, I know I've passed through this station, but don't remember the layout. Is there a grade crossing or something similarly smooth and flat to the east side of the station platform? I remember at Fox River Grove station it was common practice for the extremely long rush hour outbound trains to discharge passengers onto the grade crossings both east and west of the station and gravel in between the end of the platform and the grade crossing to the east. Of course those were Gallery cars, designed for low level loading, so it really was just one long jump to the ground, rather than three steps and then one more big one.
Wayne
R-32.
For specifics, do a search on this subject as Lou From Brooklyn said.
No, the "C" stands for "Communication."
CBTC - Not to be confused with CTBC (Communication Train Based Control), which is an invention of SubTalk.
"Communication-Based Train Control (CBTC) systems employ modern computing systems, communications, and control technologies to overcome the limitations placed by fixed block train control technology that safeguard train operations but limits train throughput. These systems may pave the way for eventual introduction of total automation of train operations. CBTC benefits transit users in a number of ways. It allows for more trains to be run on the existing system; increases safety and flexibility in operations to facilitate fast recovery from unforeseen circumstances; faster trips; greater reliability; and better and more timely availability of information. CBTC systems reduce the need for major investments in infrastructure. The Bay Area Rapid Transit District (BART) is considering using CBTC as an alternative to investing $3 billion for a new Transbay Tube to accommodate future system expansion. Other advantages of CBTC include requiring fewer vehicles to meet the same demand for service and energy efficiency, smart grade-crossing protection, and the ability to coordinate with intelligent road systems."
Say for example with the current block signalling system in NYC...if the T/O of a brooklyn bound W train has a heart attack between QBP and Lex...right now the system is totally reactive...the conductor has to go check and see what the problem is and all the while command has no idea what is going on and can't really do anything...and then you have to hope that your radios are working and can communicate with someone.
CBTC is supposed to eliminate all of that b/c the command center will be able to see exactly where the train is, that it went BIE (say b/c of the dead man's handle) and start rerouting trains and making announcements and such.
At least this is my understanding of it...I'm sure there's a bunch of stuff that I'm leaving out.
Who would want such a boring job? It sounds worse than working at 209 Joralemon Street...
Define "way behind." To me, it looks almost complete.
There are lots of little things, which the MTA contractors always seem to be bad at wrapping up. The ends of the platform roofs are open, and need to be sealed, little things like that. I say way behind becuase this SHOULD have been done over a year ago.
wayne
I thought they were good about it on the Flushing line, where they put them primarily over stairways so it's harder to reach them. Still, I've seen a few of them scratched up. (On the other hand, the clear glass blocks that are along the rest of the platforms are virtually all scratched up by now.)
It looks like down to street level for now. Or did I completely miss something?
CG
No. I'm talking about the subway station, MTA property, not the Airtrain station, PA property.
--Z--
Peace,
ANDEE
I believe these pieces were inspired by Alexander Calder's work, was famous for his mobiles
If youve been through the International Arrivals Terminal at JFK , there use to be hanging there
below is a link to some pictures of his mobiles
http://www.sfmoma.org/espace/calder/calder_windmobiles.html
The train consists of three married-pair car sets festooned with lights and decorations, plus a flatcar with various decorations and lawn ornaments on it. The train travels around the CTA system at various times, and at least part of the time I believe it is in regular service. There's more info on the train here. The CTA has done this for twelve years; has anything of this sort ever been done on the NYC subway system?
Frank Hicks
Sure...some skell takes a piss between cars while the train is moving and it lights up the third rail....(BG)
But that is beautiful in how overboard they went in decorating that!
Building Steam
By TED JACKOVICS
tjackovics@tampatrib.com
TAMPA - Dennis and Sue Lott arrived at Union Station an hour early and eager to begin their first trip aboard Amtrak, a 13 1/2-hour overnight journey from Tampa to Rocky Mount, N.C.
The Plant City couple are no strangers to railroading. Dennis Lott began his career in freight train maintenance 34 years ago on the Seaboard Coast Line, two years before the federal government launched Amtrak service.
Only now have the Lotts gotten around to sampling long- distance train travel.
``We just wanted to do something that's different and decided to give it a try,'' Dennis Lott said.
The Lotts' longtime indifference toward train travel reflects what Amtrak is up against in trying to attract more passengers to the Palmetto, the only train that serves Tampa as it swings through central Florida on a New York-Miami run.
Warning: Link expires in 3 days, then it's a pay article. If you like it, save it.
----
On an off-note I saw this train for the first time Thursday literally blowing through downtown Orlando. I heard the horns going and thought it was one of the 54 freight trains that roll through daily, and was trying to walk over to one of the crossings to get a look, but just missed the train, only saw the last 2 cars roll by. No pic.
Also, on Amtraks rail-sale site, there's a train from Orlando to Los Angeles for $25 each way! It's a 3 days trip each way, what do you think, would you do it??
I assume $25 is for coach, but I'd still be very tempted!
Coach I don't care, whatever, I thought 32 bucks to houston was nice, but 25 to LA, man. 95% less than what it costs me to fly same time last year. Just be nice if it was HSR.
At Howard station you can take the Skokie Swift to Dempster. This is the remnant of the Chicago, North Shore and Milwaukee. You will pass the CTA shops.
Howard is a station on the Evanston Express and the Red Line has its terminal there. There is plenty to see at Howard.
Bundle up, Chicago is 'The Windy City.' Notice the OPTO operation on the CTA. It still has railfan windows.
Responding here to other posts in this thread, I was also intrigued by the junction of the Brown and Red lines. And of course Wrigley Field is a must.
Also, inspecting the pillars under the Addison (3600 N) station is interesting. It is a rebuilt station. It used to have center express tracks like the stations south of Belmont. Now it has side express tracks like stations to its north to eliminate a lot of switching. The 2 northbound tracks are on relatively new sctucture.
Take a careful look at Wilson. The southbound side express track goes off on its own with a seldom used wood platform. North Shore trains used to use it, and there was a physical connection there with the MILW Road. The other side is also the site of the burned/demolished/elevated Wilson Shops.
My personal favorites are the Skokie Express, Dan Ryan, Midway, and O'Hare lines.
1. Purple Line (Evanston Express), Loop to Linden. Unfortunately the express zone has shrunk to Belmont-Howard, bus still a nice ride.
2. Purple Line back to Howard Street.
3. Yellow Line (Skokie Swift) Howward to Skokie and back; the remnant of the North Shore, and the CTA's Skokie Shops are visible off to the north at about the middle of the line. If you get off as Skokie, check out the old North Shore station, recently relocated but still near the CTA station.
4. Red Line from Howard to Belmont.
5. Over the transfer bridge at Balmont, and Brown Line (Ravenswood) to Kimball and back.
Red Line, Belmont to some convenient point in the State Street subway.
Purple, Yellow, and Brown Lines all have some interesting surface running at their outer ends.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Alan Follett
Paul
dave in Milwaukee (transplanted NY kid)
--Mark
I've walked by that parking garage at Lake and Wells and thought it would be a good spot. But it didn't look like I could just walk in with my camera, with that desk right by the elevators, so I didn't try. Maybe next time I drive to Chicago, I'll drive all the way in to the loop once, just so I can park there. Probably expensive, but it'll be worth it for the pictures.
The Yellow Line is definitely worth seeing because it gets up to a fairly good speed, and because it's the only line that still uses overhead instead of third rail on the outer section. The trains raise and lower their pantographs on the fly, which is interesting to watch from ground level. But to get to that location without a car, you'd have to take a bus and then walk a bit. The CTA is going to replace that overhead with third rail sometime soon, but I don't know exactly when.
The Green Line toward Oak Park passes some interesting areas.
The Orange LIne is of note, being the newest line with the smoothest ride.
This was Guliani's baby. NIMBY opposition, some of the strongest ever seen in transit, killed the project. The MTA still has money budgeted for the project, but it's been effectively killed.
Note: the NIMBYs weren't against the idea of the extension, but against the extension overground.
Makes perfect sense to me, and i'm actually on the side of the NIMBY's here. Who would want an elevated structure running through their neighborhood? In this day and age, these thing have to go underground.....you can't ruin the visual quality of a neighboorhood for the benefit of others if mitigation can take place(like buiilding the line underground).
-MM (who just wrote a paper on environmental visual quality impacts)
The NIMBYs were very clear ... either bury the entire elevated through Astoria, or there is no extension of the line.
Elias : )
avid
Oh wait a minute, that caused some people to be thrown off SubTalk once.
I just can't see the expense of weaving up and down into the Grand Central Parkway, trying to build around all that traffic, and hold back that water, for an old-technology subway line, for out-of-towners to go to Manhattan. Make 'em use Jamaica like the plan says. Bonus: you could make plane connections between airports.
What? 4 tracks at LGA. 2 for the astoria lines, and 2 for the 7
Another major one is that not everyone is coming from Penn Station. The N/W stops at many other points in Manhattan, including five transfer points from other lines. Penn Station is one point, with somewhat inconvenient connections to two subway lines.
The "geometric" advantage is with the straight shot -- ideally there would be a rail line going straight through Queens to LGA, but heavy transportation systems work better via hub-and-feeder, and Jamaica makes a good hub (and some flyers live out on the Island, not to mention potential new transfers to JFK). My point is that, if you want to pick up a few easily-confused tourists with luggage who don't want to pay for a cab, Jamaica is a more congenial route than making them brave a subway transfer, especially if there is backtracking. And Jamaica doesn't LOSE them any time, and there are other advantages to AirTrain. OTOH, there are lots of problems with Astoria extensions that aren't justified by giving free economic support to the air industry for a 2$ ride.
To the people who use LGA, and especially to the people who would consider riding mass transit to LGA, Times Square is by far a more important hub than Jamaica.
Is that actually true? I don't doubt it, but was just wondering where you got that from. People in the city are more likely to travel than LIers?
Those who do come from Nassau [Suffolk] County are unlikely to take transit, even if transit were an option, since almost everyone in Nassau County has a car
Yes, they do have a car, however, personally, I don't like leaving my car at the airport. I am sure I am not alone with this. So I then have to take a shuttle service, or someone has to drop me off at the airport.
I and a small fraction of Nassau County residents live in walking distance of a train station.
Yesa, LIers do have taxis to bring them to the station, or someone to bring them to the station. I much rather ask someone to take me to the station than to the airport itself.
No, LIers are more likely to use other airports. LGA is the closest airport to Manhattan; JFK is the closest airport to Nassau. If there's a choice between LGA and JFK, most Nassauites opt for JFK while most Manhattanites opt for LGA, for obvious reasons.
Yes, they do have a car, however, personally, I don't like leaving my car at the airport. I am sure I am not alone with this.
Of course you're not alone. But at least you have the option of taking the car. Most New Yorkers don't. And many people with cars have no problem leaving them at the airport.
So I then have to take a shuttle service, or someone has to drop me off at the airport.
Again, that's not an option for most New Yorkers.
Yesa, LIers do have taxis to bring them to the station, or someone to bring them to the station. I much rather ask someone to take me to the station than to the airport itself.
That's a hassle. It's not an outrageous hassle, but the more the hassles, the more people will choose other options, where other options exist. New Yorkers have less of a hassle and have fewer other options.
There's also the matter of culture. The average Long Island resident rides LIRR to get to and from Manhattan and drives everywhere else. The average NYC resident uses the transit system to get everywhere unreachable by foot. I doubt the average Long Island resident would even think of taking the train to the airport -- it's just not the sort of trip for which train travel comes to mind.
Again, I'm not totally disagreeing here, just that it surprises me. New Yorkers (well Manhattan, Bronx, and SI) have the choice of three airports - Newark, JFK, or LGA. (Newark is less of an option for Queens, and somewhat less to Brooklyn). LI only has two, LGA and JFK (Islip is a joke for all but a few destinations). Personally, I use air travel about 3 times a year (from Suffolk). I have lived out of New York City for about 8 years now, and I use LGA about 66% of the time, and JFK the other 33%. Is that an anomilty for LI residents, I don't know, but I find LGA to be a more user friendly airport, (except of course if I need an international flight).
So I then have to take a shuttle service, or someone has to drop me off at the airport.
Again, that's not an option for most New Yorkers.
Shuttle service is available to everyone, and I used that quite often when I did live in Brooklyn and Queens. As for being dropped off by someone, although not as easy as LI residents, Queens, SI, (and Brooklyn residents to a lesser extent) have not too much of a problem with that, so that leaves the Bronx and Manhattan, and there I agree.
[Yes but], LIers do have taxis to bring them to the station, or someone to bring them to the station. I much rather ask someone to take me to the station than to the airport itself.
That's a hassle. It's not an outrageous hassle, but the more the hassles, the more people will choose other options, where other options exist. New Yorkers have less of a hassle and have fewer other options.
Taxi service on LI is not a hassle, as long as you call. It's not quite as easy as jumping out your door and grabbing a cab, but only Mannhattan has that luxury anyway. On the way home, the majority of LIRR stations have taxis lined up waiting for people, and they connect with the trains (meaning they come in pacts when a train is expected). Again, you are using the current mode of transportation available to LIers as your guide as to how LIers get to the airports. I am sure I am not alone when I say I do not currently trust any sort of public transportation to the airports as they all involve "surface" routing. However, if a rail connection existed to LGA, I would not hesitate for a second to use it, as that is more reliable than surface. More reliable than a shuttle, as a shuttle service also needs the surface. The one and only time I used a shuttle service from LI was the one and only time I almost missed a plane. It is also more reliable than driving yourself, and more reliable than having someone drop you off, especially certain times of the day. A rail connection would actually be less of a hassle at certain times of the day, as people could allow much less time to get to the airport as they wouldn't have to leave extra time for considering traffic conditions. With rail transport, if it says it'll take an hour, within reason, that is what it will take. You must leave much more extra "what if" time when using any mode of surface transportation. That is why I disagree, and that LIers would certainly use this service.
With that, lets not talk about MacArthur on this thread anymore. Too much OT stuff happenin
Mac Arthur may be off topic to the thread, but a rail connection to it is not off topic to the board.
Delata Express flies regional jets to Atlanta and Cincinnati. American Eagle has RJ's to Boston and Continental Express has them to Cleveland. USAirways express has turboprops to Philadelphia and maybe one or two other places. But most of the flights out of ISP, and all of the mainline jet routes, are on Southwest.
It is super-convenient. I'll be flying out of there next Thursday on a quick trip to Florida on Southwest.
Every evening, when I get to Ronkonkoma station for the shuttle to Medford, I see at least 10 to 15 people with luggage waiting for the next train to Penn. They flew into ISP and got van shuttles to Ronkonkoma. While a direct rail link to the terminal would be terrific, as noted elsewhere, the existing shuttle system seems quite popular and works okay.
ISP probably would be even busier, but for competition from JetBlue at JFK.
1. An expansion of the subway to LaGuardia
2. The building of the Second Avenue Subway
3. The first manned flight to Mars
As for the other two, which of the two items that will be completed last? Now do I have to tell you the answer to THAT question?
How about at the point where Rockaway Blvd becomes Rockaway Tpk?
Honestly, you're the first LI (Nassau/Suffolk) resident I've seen express a preference for LGA over JFK. Most I've spoken to prefer JFK over LGA for the same reason I prefer LGA over, say, HPN: it's closer and it's easier to get to. I don't have any actual statistics; I'm basing this on common sense.
Shuttle service is available to everyone, and I used that quite often when I did live in Brooklyn and Queens.
I'm not sure what you mean by shuttle service.
As for being dropped off by someone, although not as easy as LI residents, Queens, SI, (and Brooklyn residents to a lesser extent) have not too much of a problem with that, so that leaves the Bronx and Manhattan, and there I agree.
IIRC, only about 10% of Nassau and Suffolk households have no access to an automobile. In Staten Island, it's 20%, in Queens, it's 34%, and in Brooklyn, it's 54%. Driving or being driven is an option for proportionately more LIers than for residents of any borough of NYC.
Taxi service on LI is not a hassle, as long as you call.
It's an additional step. Taxi from home to LIRR station, LIRR to Jamaica, AirTrain to LGA. The more steps, the more likely one is to opt for a different route.
With only a few exceptions, every subway station is either served directly by the N or is one transfer away from the N. Extending the N would give nearly every NYC resident who lives in walking distance of a subway station (which, I think, includes most NYC residents, and it certainly includes most carless NYC residents) single-transfer access, at worst, to LGA.
Again, you are using the current mode of transportation available to LIers as your guide as to how LIers get to the airports.
The current mode of transportation available to LIers will remain available, correct? My claim is that, for the vast majority, it will remain the choice of preference.
I am sure I am not alone when I say I do not currently trust any sort of public transportation to the airports as they all involve "surface" routing.
The same goes for public transportation to LGA from elsewhere in NYC. The only difference is that most NYC residents don't have any choice other than a (slow) bus or an (expensive) cab.
However, if a rail connection existed to LGA, I would not hesitate for a second to use it, as that is more reliable than surface.
Good for you. You have a much better understanding of transportation issues than the average person. Good luck convincing your friends to take the train.
That is why I disagree, and that LIers would certainly use this service.
Those "in the know" would use it. Those without cars or rides would use it. Both are extreme minority groups.
Let's see what happens with JFK AirTrain. How many LIers will actually use the convenient Jamaica connection? Not very many, I predict.
Really? Seriously, I really like using that airport better...always have. But then again, I guess old habits die hard. I'll have to take an informal poll of people I know. This is very curious.
I'm not sure what you mean by shuttle service.
Sorry. Shuttle service...An airport van. You call them, and they pick you up (and other people near you who also called to go to the same airport around the same time). It's been a while sincee I used one, so I can't give you a company name.
With only a few exceptions, every subway station is either served directly by the N or is one transfer away from the N. Extending the N would give nearly every NYC resident who lives in walking distance of a subway station
True, but it's still a time factor. An LIRR-Airtrain-LGA setup would probably get most LIRR riders to LGA faster than it would in the car at many times of the day. In fact it would get LIRR riders (especially Nassau) to the airport faster than many subway riders using some line to get to the N, and then taking the N all the way up to the Airport. Remember, it would be much more relianle than most surface methods, especially at peak driving times...they could leave less "what if" time. If the train says it will get you there at 6:00, in all likeliness you will be there at 6:00. The same can't be said about road travel. You may get there at 5:30, but you also may not get there until 7:00.
The current mode of transportation available to LIers will remain available, correct?
Of course, but with a convinient and fast Airtrain to LGA from Jamaica, the LIRR would become more attractive, taking many out of their cars. People will always drive, but if a viable alternative exists, that will be used too. Right now now viable alternative to driving even exists.
The same goes for public transportation to LGA from elsewhere in NYC. The only difference is that most NYC residents don't have any choice other than a (slow) bus or an (expensive) cab.
Very true again. But remember, I am by no means against an extension of the N to LGA. In fact I mentioned many times that I was all for it. It should be done in addition to the Airtrain idea from Jamaica. They would serve totally different groups of people. They would also be funded differently. The Airtrain version could be funded similarily to the way the current one was. The N train one would have to be through the MTA.
Let's see what happens with JFK AirTrain. How many LIers will actually use the convenient Jamaica connection? Not very many, I predict.
We shall see....especially since it's apparently the more chosen airport for "LIers" (again using that ridiculous phrase forgetting that Brooklyn and Queens IS LI).
"So I then have to take a shuttle service, or someone has to drop me off at the airport.
Again, that's not an option for most New Yorkers."
Actually, there are lots of services to the airports from NYC already. NY Airport Service, Airport Shuttle, NYCT, and soon, NY Water Taxi.
Also, lots of LIers doe use the train most places. Yea, a lot do drive, but many still take the buses, trains, and w/e else is available.
Just to add to that: LIers are not so stuck to their cars as some people seem think. When rail is a viable option, it is used heavily by LIers. Why else is the LIRR the busiest commuter RR in the country? When going to Manhattan, most LIers (yes, that own cars) use the train. Why do they do that? Because it is a viable and easy option to use the train to Manhattan. The reason our roads are jammed are because the places most of those people are going are not served by the LIRR. The reason they don't use it for either LGA or JFK right now is because it is not a viable option - there is no rail service. They almost HAVE to use the car. Just because people have cars, and can use cars doesn't mean they wouldn't use a viable rail option to LGA.
I couldn't agree more. And as I stated in my other post, I am not against a subway connection to LGA, but I feel an LIRR (via Airtrain from Jamaica) one is just as important. As for Islip, again poor planning also affected the rail connection there. The Ronkonkoma station is right next to the airport, and what do they do? They build the terminal (and later refurbish the existing one) on the total opposite side of the Airport. How easy an LIRR connection to that airport could have been.....
It's just like the Rockaway Branch being next to Kennedy....and they abandon the line! (lets not revive that topic again).
Poor planning is rampant in the New York area.
ISP's terminal is where it's always been. It was extensively rebuilt a few years ago and more work is in progress.
Technically speaking you could run a spur from the LIRR to the terminal and stay entirely on railroad and airport property. ON grade crossing would be required. The problem with this idea is that the line would be awkwardly located on airport property. It would have to cross right in front of several hangars and cut way to the west to avoid a runway. In addition, a number of desparately needed parking spaces at Ronkonkoma station would be lost.
All in all, the current shuttle van service does the job.
-Jeff
An extension of the Astoria lines would provide a one seat ride for more. Also, in many other cities, they have subway lines to the airport, I think NYC should do so as well.
As for a line from Woodside to LGA, how? Along the BQE? Many comming from suburban LI have to transfer in Jamaica. Would the trains run from Jamaica to LGA, or woodside to LGA? If running from Jamaica, then maybe that'd work, but I still think the airtrain idea would be better. However, the idea of the line from Woodside is tempting.
Doesn't LaGuardia have terminal connector buses?
This would allow people down in Brooklyn to get to LGA without running through Manhattan. But then, that's just crazy old me, trying to make the G USEFUL.
--Z--
"Yeah but if they would try to build the extension underground, you would still have a block or two of "transition" between Ditmars, and wherever the line would go through the portal. I don't even know if it's possible to do, unless they put the entire Astoria El underground. (Oh no, not that thread again - "Tear Down the Astoria El!!")."
HAHHA, i'm sure they could manage to get a two block transition in, so long as the majority of the line is underground. If they threaten to make the existing last two blocks of the El into transition (probably requiring that LGA trains bypass Ditmars Blvd), then they might be able to convince them that its a good idea to let them build the transition, so as to avoid the loss of service to that station
Just keep the thing elevated and pay the people along those two blocks of 31st Street for their suffering.
avid
Thats why. Besides the idea of a SUBWAY to the airport is STOOPIT.
Subways make lotsa stops, are slow, and are already filled to capacity without the need of stacks of suitcases.
The case having been made.
It is DEAD EASY and CHEAP to bring rail from Manhattan to LGA.
Most of the tracks are already in place, and the only place than needs new tracks is already a busy ROW sans NIMBYs!
The Tracks already pass through the Sunnyside Yard and up onto the Hells Gate Bridge Approach. From there you bend a new elevated structure (soundproof concrete construction, no different from a highway interchange) concurent with the Grand Central Parkway.
Trains can leave either GCT or NYP and can even connect with Newark.
Use special built for the purpose cars with comfortable seating and room for baggage. They need not be much longer than two or three cars.
Ture they will have to thread their way through complicated switching and schedules, especially at NYP, but it is doable.
So if you are interested in expanding the subway via the excuse of getting to the airport, fugetaboutit. If you want quick service to the airports then think about it.
Elias
I would still perfer to see the subway head up there, though. Not to get AROUND the airport, like the JFK Airtrain, but just to get there. Remember, not everyone who goes to the airport flies. Have any idea how many people work at a place like that?
One reason why the N is a great choice to extend to LGA is because it's one of the less crowded lines, and offers a comparatively short ride into Manhattan. Imagine riding nearly the entire length of the 7 with a bunch of suitcases, for example (Astoria NIMBYs kept suggesting a branch off the 7 near Shea Stadium instead of extending the N to reach LGA).
Absolutly IMPOSSIBLE! The (7) is already running to and beyond capacity. Ain't no way to add a diverging route.
Elias
Wrong!!!
It's the bumper-block Main St. station that is maxed out not the Flushing Line or Times Square. One quarter of all rush hour trains are turned back at either 111th or Willets Point. Sending them to LGA instead wouldn't be that difficult.
Are LGA passengers more likely to live or work in close proximity to a subway station or to an LIRR station? Are LGA passengers who would seriously consider riding transit to the airport more likely to live or work in close proximity to a subway station or to an LIRR station?
The extension of Airtrain to Jamaica would make sense. He is right Jamaica is a major hub. As an occasional LIRR passenger, I would never consider using the LIRR for LGA access, in it's current form, However, if there was a rail connection to LGA via the LIRR and Airtrain, I would certainly use it. I am sure I am not alone in this. I would certainly trust rail connection to the airport, as opposed to a bus connection. Rail is much more reliable. This is why right now I would never use the LIRR to LGA, or Kennedy for that matter. So yes, LIRR users would use the service, and most communities on LI are not far from or in close proximity to a station that would bring them to Jamaica.
That being said, I also do not feel that an airtrain connection to LGA should be the ONLY rail connection. As noted, I agree, a Jamaica Airtrain connection to LGA would be more useful to LIRR riders (and Bus riders) than they would be to subway riders, unless you live/work along Queens Blvd or the J line.
In addition, an airtrain connection from LGA to Jamaica would also have the added benefit of connecting JFK to LGA, allowing much better and reliable connections for airline travelers. It's a win situation for the region transit system, and done in conjunction with a subway connection also, would be a win situation overall. (Although, the E's connections are not horrible either, and subway riders could transfer from whatever line they use to the E train. You will never give every subway rider a one seat ride anyway. Even if the N went to LGA, it would only benefit N riders with a one seat ride, other transit riders will have to change one or two times anyway.)
Any route to LGA would have a hard time meeting its operating costs, let alone capital costs. Before talking about Airtrain extensions, I'd prefer to see what the ridership from Jamaica and Howard Beach will be. If it's as dismal as the DEIS predicts, then I see no reason why existing subway riders should subsidize the airlines through their subway fares. The airlines are subsidized enough through general taxation.
N Bwy
I know I've taken the N to Ditmars Blvd during the evening rush, and it was wonderfully easy to find a seat. When I used to take the 7 from Grand Central to Flushing regularly on weekends, I would usually have to stand to at least 74th Street.
I used to live close to Broadway station. In the morning rush hour, it was very hit and miss whether I would get a seat.
In the evening, I would board at Whitehall Street and usually get a seat, though the train was full by Canal Street.
Your mileage varied!
Now I see why you like the Seabeach "DITCH" line so much.
N Bwy
Keep the Astoria Elevated so we can get a good look of the neighborhood as we travel.
Gee, I didn't know you were a glutten for punishment. What a depressing thing to have to endure. Not exactly the Taj Majal of neighborhoods, but I guess there are some nice areas along the way if you crane your eyes and head long and far enough.
Not from the visual standpoint I would agree, since you are looking at single family/two family homes for most of the ride north from QBP.
But if you actually get off at Ditmars or Broadway. Very friendly people, good diners, cafes, restaurants, bakers
Im thinking of moving back some day.
Was the original proposal to go over Grand Central PArkway?
I think some of the GCP from the Astoria Line to the airport is in an open cut....therfore an elevated train would be on street level....and some of the GCP goes through industrial areas, where sight lines aren't a priority.
LGA needs decent mass transit, more then JFK IMO, since it caters more to business travelers on quick jaunts that will be likely to use rail. Most international passangers who have 2 huge suitcases are not going to want to use air train to JFK, no matter how quick, convenient, or cheap it is (all of those subject to debate!)!
The projected use wouldn't meet added operating costs.
I have flown close to 100K miles each year for the last few, and the air train to EWR has greatly increased my usage of that airport (I have done 4 flights there since oct 1, and not that many the 12 months prior). From midtown, it is now *at least* as convenient as any other airport door to door. Frankly, even from my home near Prospect Park, the 2,3 train makes it convenient everywhere I fly from.
my only criticisms are that it is overpriced (though the lower fares help mitigate that), and there are too few NJT ticket machines at PennNYC to provide truly quick ticketing.
the question is, does the city/PA WANT to make LaGuardia that convenient? would this further cramp the runway scarcity problem there?
IMPROVE shuttle service from Islip, Stewart and other outlying airports.
There is no need for those people to clutter up the city just to get an airplane out. The idea is to keep as much traffic, (air and automobile) out of the city.
Elias
IMPROVE shuttle service from Islip, Stewart and other outlying airports.
There is no need for those people to clutter up the city just to get an airplane out. The idea is to keep as much traffic, (air and automobile) out of the city.
These services exist because they are useful. I once worked for a new media company during the boom, who needed to get a bunch of us to a client meeting in Boston. Flew up in the morning, drove outside Boston to the office, and back in time for dinner. Amtrak, bless its soul, can't do that.
Well, between 6 and 10 a.m. there are around 7 trains going to Boston. You could have caught the 8:03 out of Penn Station and been in South Station by 11:30. If your business was concluded in time to catch the 3:15 p.m. train back, you could have gotten back to Manhattan by 6:40 p.m. Time for dinner. The airline version of that trip couldn't have been much better as far as time spent.
As for Stewart, I-287 rail line is supposed to go there.
So just expand La Guardia until it meets to existing Astoria line terminus at Ditmars! This would be easier because it's easier to get money for air travel than urban transit from the feds!
: )
Mark
That's so crazy it JUST MIGHT WORK.
:)
Fantasies come true...
--Z--
I can't help thinking of the original specification for the Paris Metro in 1900: "For Passengers and their HAND Luggage."
I can't help thinking of the original specification for the Paris Metro in 1900: "For Passengers and their HAND Luggage."
I'm going to wait to comment on this for a month. The reason why: I want to see how many people, with baggage, use the JFK Airtrain via NYCT, versus LIRR. People ALREADY lug their stuff via NYCT just to hit the PA's shuttle bus, with a well-advertised Airtrain, you might start seeing a lot more people moving luggage via the A, E, J and Z lines. Will this be a good thing? We'll find out in a month.
In my opinion, it would be possible to put the line underground under those 2 blocks by building a portal just north of Astoria Blvd. This is a nondescript stretch, though it does have a public school. Then you could sell the plan to the neighborhood by building a brand new (3-track) Ditmars station with ADA access and a location right under Ditmars Blvd. Right now the station is a very long walk from the Ditmars bus. Of course, this would be a lot more expensive than a simple extension of the el.
One of these days, I'll write to Vallone's son about it.
The el for the astoria line is cut back to just after the Amtrak bridge to allow for a transition to subway. New station at ditmars av. From there stations are:
Hazen St
Parking lot 7
Parking lot 1/Employees
Terminal D/C
Terminal B/A
Parking lot 3(West end)/Employees
Parking lot 4/US airways
Parking lot 4/US Airways shuttle
Parking lot 4/Delta
and then possibly in the future:
31st Dr/World's Fair Marina
Shea Stadium
Flushing Main St
Also, airtrain would be extended to serve the suburbs via Jamaica(PW line can use astoria lines or airtrain from flushing main st)
Question:
Can airtrain be sent underground, say, under Parsons and Kissena BLVDS? If so, this would be the best routing. This is proposal 1
1. From JFK to Jamaica, next stops are:
Parsons BLVD
LIE/Queens College
Flushing Main St
Shea Satdium
31st Dr/World's Fair marina
Parking lot 4/Delta
Parking lot 4/US Airways shuttle
Parking lot 4/US airways
Parking lot 3(West end)/Employees
Terminal B/A
Terminal D/C
Parking lot 1/Employees
Parking lot 7
Delta Shuttle/Ferry Terminal
From Flushing Main St to parking lot 7, the ROW is 4 tracks wide. The Flushing Main st, parking lots, and airport terminal stops consist of 2 extra wide island platforms to allow for quick and easy, cross platform, transfers. The wide platforms accodmodate the potential crowds with all their luggage and what not. The other stops would just be 2 regular width island platforms.
Proposal 2 has trains originating at Jamaica and then continuing up the Van Wyck expressway and college pt blvd. Stops would be:
Jamaica
Main St
83rd Av
LIE
Flushing Main St
Shea Stadium
31st Dr/World's Fair marina
Parking lot 4/Delta
Parking lot 4/US Airways shuttle
Parking lot 4/US airways
Parking lot 3(West end)/Employees
Terminal B/A
Terminal D/C
Parking lot 1/Employees
Parking lot 7
Delta Shuttle/Ferry Terminal
Now the suburbs and NYC have rail service to both airports, JFK and LGA
Extend AirTran from Jamaica over median of the Grand Central Pkwy to LGA terminals again over GCP to BQE south to Freight ROW to Woodside.
Additional stops Stops at
1. Shea to connect to #7 and LIRR.
2. BQE and Broadway to connect V,G,R
3. Woodside station to connect to LIRR and #7
[Posted by NIMBYkiller
Shea is a limited service stop for the PW line, and LIRR would never make regular stops there, even for locals. However, Flushing main st on the other hand, is always getting heavy use. Lots of people getting off of NYP bound trains, and getting on PW bound trains. Also, all those bus connections!Bout 25 of them. They should make this an express stop with Airtrain serving it. ]
I assume $25 is for coach, but I'd still be very tempted!
Coach I don't care, whatever, I thought 32 bucks to houston was nice, but 25 to LA, man. 95% less than what it costs me to fly same time last year. Just be nice if it was HSR.
To access, type in http://www.mapjunction.com/places/Boston_BRA/main.pl?ht=768
then click on 1995 BWSC, scroll down to Future Boston Map Collection and click, go to Testing and click, and then scroll on down to 1925 Boston Elevated Railway Lines P1 and click. You will find this detailed map that includes the Atlantic Ave el and the original location of the Orange Line with station names, and last but not least, several trolley lines as well.
This was mentioned in railroad.net, but I figured this belonged here in Subtalk as well. Enjoy!
To The Maps
For those of you who don't know (or who got the notice in time but it just didn't register < g >), the December 2003 New York Division-ERA meeting is THIS Friday, December 12, the SECOND Friday of the month, as opposed to the usual third Friday, which is the 19th.
Eric Oszustowicz is presenting the show, and those of you who have seen his previous presentations know that they're always top-notch. The show begins with photos from various NYC subway fantrips held this year, then it's on to Alaska for some very interesting shots. The second half of the show is devoted to REDBIRDS and the end of the graffiti era at NYC Transit.
Door fee for non-members/non-subscribers is $5, which is waived for first-time attendees. The meeting will be held at St. John's University, 101 Murray Street (between Chambers and West Streets) in lower Manhattan. Doors open at 6:15 PM, and the meeting starts at 7:15 PM.
David Ross
Production Manager - The Bulletin
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
And I realize that I've asked this question before.
But has there been any thought of having an occasional NYD-ERA meeting on some other night of the week? I have a hunch I'm not the only one here who would love to attend but can't come on a Friday night (or on a Saturday night except in the winter).
S.I.R.T. walk when? toward 'Port Ivory'
David Ross
Production Manager - The Bulletin
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I should join anyway, but I'd join in a heartbeat if I could attend some of the meetings, which I can't if they're all on Friday nights. And, again, I don't think I'm the only one in this boat.
--Mark
BTW, I echo David of Broadway's sentiments.
Thanks.
--Mark
Back issues from other years can be ordered individually or in sets. Call (212) 986-4482 and leave your number. Someone will get back to you.
Dues are $35 (check or money order, please) and may be sent to:
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
PO Box 3001
New York NY 10008-3001
David Ross
Production Manager - The Bulletin
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
David Ross
Production Manager - The Bulletin
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Oh boy! You're gonna have some meeting on non-Fridays! That's great news! After you post the first non-Friday meeting notice, I'll immediately sign up, unless of course it is on a Yom Tov.
David Ross
Production Manager - The Bulletin
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
1. How much is admission for non-members again?
2. What do you think are my chances of making it on time from my job at Rector & Washington Sts which lets out at ~7 o'clock?
H=hook
2=2
C=coupler
So I think it stands for "Hook 2 coupler". It's a HOOK type of COUPLER and the hook number for this type of coupler is probably #2.
The "C" definitely does not stand for "coupler" since H2As are also couplers. I believe the trailing letter indicates the kind of trainline connections included in the coupler.
Also, those couplers are not the standard; they were. The TA settled on what we now see as the 'Ohio Brass' coupler (r-142,143,44/46) after tasting them for the first time on the troubled r-44/46's - with supposed success - only to rewind the clock with the r-62,68's for the sake of K.I.S.S. prudence. The Ohio Brass' advantages lie in more train-lines.
The only other system in the country I've seen to use (have used) the WABCO H-2-A/C couplers - beside PATH - are the pacific red cars. Those interurban trolley cars on steroids serving L.A.. I don't bother acknowledging PATH, personally, because by they've always semi-copy-cats. By default, they're going to be: being in the shadow of the TA, and all. Concerning the PATH; the same goes for the switch to the Ohio Brass.
R-32.
#3 West End Jeff
R-32.
The OB couplers are relatively simple. However, as I mentioned in
the other post, they are much more prone to failure leading to
accidental uncoupling and, by design, they need to be buffed before
they can be uncoupled.
In the end, the single-supplier thing blew up in NYCT face, just
like Metrocard and CBTC, since WABCO wound up owning OB.
The H head coupler is basically a tightlock version of the
standard AAR knuckle coupler. The mating surfaces are
precision machined and at an angle to ensure very little slop.
What keeps the thing coupled is the locking dog wedge which fits
into a pocket on the back side of the angled mating face.
That angle means that buff and draft forces are translated
into perpendicular forces, which would tend to move the coupler
sideways away from its mate. The locking wedge prevents that
movement and keeps the thing coupled.
This is a much better design than hook couplers because it does
not attempt to support the entire draft force via a tiny hook.
It is virtually impossible for an H head coupler to unintentionally
part except in cases of gross mechanical damage, and at the same
time when uncoupling is desired, it will uncouple easily and without
the need to pre-buff the coupler thanks to the hammer-blow design
of the uncouple piston, which knocks the locking wedge back out
of the way.
The H is the basic WABCO model designation. They made a lot of
couplers....the IRT used J couplers which were similar to H.
K couplers were popular on interurbans and street railways.
They featured a circular electric portion inside the mating face
instead of below the coupler head. The N style coupler is used on
M1s, M3s, etc. and is of a hook design.
The numeral relates to the size of the coupler. Streetcar couplers
tended to be size "1". The H2 is larger than the H1, although
I'm not certain any H1s were actually manufactured. There may
have been a size 3 too, but again I can't think of an example.
The "C" is a minor variation on the model. The big difference
between an H2A (used on AMUE cars such as R-9s) and H2C used
on the SMEE cars is in the cutting arrangement.
The H2C has a small internal reservoir which is charged from
the lower pipe (Brake Pipe), which under SMEE is usually charged.
When the cutting operation is initiated by admitting air to the
cutting control pipe (via the cutting valve either under the car
or in the cab), the internal relay valve mechanism isolates the
car's brake pipe from the coupler head so it doesn't go into
emergency when the cars separate. The volume reservoir is used
to provide the air to pop the cutting piston.
Under AMUE, the top pipe (Main Reservoir) is always charged, whereas
the Brake Pipe is variable. Air for the cutting piston is taken
directly from the MR pipe, with no volume reservoir. The brake pipe
isolating feature is provided by an external brake pipe cutoff
valve.
If there was ever an H2B coupler, I don't know who used it or what
it did.
I hope that is more than you wanted to know.
R-32.
Regards,
Jimmy
MY (Newkirk Images) suggested list went up to $10.95 this year. I failed to notify Mr.Matus of the change before he reviewed the calendar.
Bill "Newkirk"
First page: I like the close-up photo of R16 #6369, but being that I was born in 1992 and I am growing up with color photo technology, I'm not a big fan of those photos.
January 2004: I HATE THE R62's/R62A's. I wish that William Mangahas (the photographer) could have photographed the redbird in the background (which was at 74 Street-Broadway). ;(
February 2004: The most aesthtically pleasing R type to date looks great on a sunny day. Part of the first R142A 5-car set manufactured/delivered, R142A #7215!
March 2004: I have no opinion. There's the evidence of the great old Fulton El.
April 2004: Man, that's high. If only the R16's had a better paint scheme.
May 2004: Those S.I.R.T. cars have a great paint scheme!
June 2004: I guess I like the Lo-V's. I'm a modern-day kid, but of course I don't HATE the Lo-V's (even though I have a limited knowledge of them).
July 2004: The paint's terrific.
August 2004: Too dull.
September 2004: No opinion.
October 2004: A bit of history: the E. 105 St. grade crossing.
November 2004: Two R143's on the (M). Those car bodies are GLEAMING.
December 2004: Just a photo of a work train at Queensboro Plaza in 1986: The Graffiti War.
Newkirk comes out with these calendars months in advance of the new year. I bought the 2002 calendar on SEPTEMBER 8, 2001, and carried it with me through the WTC complex in, what would be, the { :( } the last time as it was known then.
That was photographed on a Saturday when headways are not as frequent. It would have been nice if there was also a Redbird outbound to Flushing, but it was a bitter cold day and I didn't want to stay there too long.
As for your review of the calendar, I try to insert images that appeal to anyone of any generation. It's tuff to satisfy everyone.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks Thurston !
Bill "Newkirk"
Time to buy a calendar...
Santa Claus is taking requests for me. I seem to have forgotten the North Pole's area code. Santa now has a fax machine !
Bill "Newkirk"
I shot that from a moving southbound train. In fact, I think it was a SubTalk field trip since Harry Beck and some other SubTalkers were with me.
Bill "Newkirk"
Some of the recent sharp clear shots, like of the R142s and R143s, are just beautiful.
Wyckoff and Gates was the Ridgewood Office.
Fulton and Crescent was the Cypress Hills Office.
The main office was at 1451 Myrtle Ave which I thought was next to the old First National City Bank.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-6th Av.Lcl."]
Out on the Queens line, you'd see, "Queensboro - 8th Ave".
Last October, I spotted some old direction signs on the rampway from the original side of the PABT leading down to the subway mezzanine which I remember from the 60s. Something like "To downtown and Brooklyn trains" with an arrow pointing to the right and "To Queens and uptown trains" with an arrow pointing to the left. And to think I had my camera with me but didn't take a picture...
ALP46 #4603
Dinky in storage - The Princeton Shuttle was bustituted.
NJT train #3846
Amtrak AEM7 #907
I wish I was you...:-)
See here: http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/PriJct2000
Now I have a question - surely among the many photos you've taken over the years, you must have at least one shot of the *original* interiors of the Jersey Arrows (particularly the 1's), Septa Silverliners and Comet I's?
Just wondering...
I'm not a photographer. I had a cheap 35 mm camera that I bought when I was in the army. It didn't have flash, so I took only slides outdoors with good light. I didn't store them properly, so all the old slides are gone.
I also had a Super 8 mm movie camera, so when I became a railfan I took slides and movies.
When I got a video camera I essentially stopped taking slides, so there's a big gap where I have very little coverage.
When I got a digital camera (with thanks to Harry Beck for his helpful consultation), I stopped taking video (except for video of the grandkids).
As of today, PJ was looking much greyer (salt/sand over the pristine snow) and the Dinky was running.
NJ Transit to New York was 17 minutes late, as the annoying automated announcement kept telling us.
Queensboro Bridge Trolley Terminal routes:
Q101-was the steinway trolley
Q60-was the Queens BLVD trolley
Q65/66- Part of what was the college point trolley from queensboro bridge to flushing, the rest is the Q65?
Q19-Was the Dutch Kills(Astoria) trolley
At the Williamsburg Bridge Trolley Terminal:
B60 to Fulton St-was the Hamburg(wilson Av) trolley. Did this trolley ever go to the current end on the B60?
B47-was the Ralph Av trolley
B43 from Flushing Av then south-was the Tompkins Av trolley
B39-was the Bridge Local(If I'm wrong on this one, then nothing here is right, lol)
Q59-was the Grand St trolley
B48 from Broadway then south-was the Franklin Av trolley
In the Bronx:
Bx35-was the 167th st trolley
Bx41
Bx9
So...are any of these gueses right?
Also, I read here that the M10 is a former trolley line. Did the trolley follow the exact same routing at the M10, including the split at 63rd and central park west?
At the Williamsburg Bridge Trolley Terminal:
B60 to Fulton St-was the Hamburg(wilson Av) trolley. Did this trolley ever go to the current end on the B60?
Yes, but don't know how far it went.
B47-was the Ralph Av trolley
I don't know what B47 is now. B47 used to be Tompkins ... but anyway, the trolley line was called Ralph-Rockaway.
B43 from Flushing Av then south-was the Tompkins Av trolley
Yes. Tompkins was also one of the lines extended to Coney Island during the summer as Tompkins-Culver.
B39-was the Bridge Local(If I'm wrong on this one, then nothing here is right, lol)
Duh.
Q59-was the Grand St trolley
Yes. Ex B-59.
B48 from Broadway then south-was the Franklin Av trolley
Yes, but the Franklin car continued down Ocean Avenue and Parkside Avenue to end south of Park Circle. This part of the route was covered by the B33 Hamilton Bus until 1970(?) or so. The Hamilton bus ran essentially never.
But seriously, there are (or were) routes that only ran once a day or even once a year. An example of the latter was a bus route via (IIRC) Broadway and 8th Street, Manhattan. It ran once in each direction every year, simply to maintain the franchise.
Do you know what route this took to Coney Island?
Presumably somehow it got onto Gravesend/McDonald Av - but it doesn't look possible from the BAHN layout!
The Manhattan & Queens Railway came out over the Queensboro Bridge and continued along Queens Blvd. It was cut back to just the bridge & became the Queensboro Bridge Railway. It bcame part of Queens-Nassau Transit Lines before being converted to bus April 7, 1957.
"Q101-was the steinway trolley"
Was part of Steinway Lines which became Queens Surface Corp.
"Q65/66- Part of what was the college point trolley from queensboro bridge to flushing, the rest is the"
Was part of New York & Queens County Railway which became Queens Surface Corp.
The "Waiting Room" of the last depot can be found in Woodside on Broadway at 51st Street. The mall behind it is where the depot stood.
Thurston, I'm a little confused.
I know that Queensboro Bridge Railway operated the trolleys over
the bridge, becoming the last trolley line to operate in New York
State.
Why would Manhattan & Queens Railway or the bus line [Q60] choose
not to operate into the 2nd Avenue underground terminal? IIRC,
in the fifties, it was the Bridge Trolley & Steinway Lines Q101
using the terminal. The Q60 bus terminated at 60th Street &
Second Avenue. Also the Bridge Trolleys in the last years of
service were painted in the Orange & Cream [popsicle] paint
scheme same as Steinway Lines and Queens Transit?
Who was Queens-Nassau Transit Lines? Didn't the Steinway Lines
cars operate over the bridge prior to bustification along with the
Manhattan & Queens cars? Also there was a connection a connection
on 59th Street with Third Avenue Railways. >>GG<<
:>) ~ Sparky
You have to go further back in history to make the picture clear.
In the 20's M&Q went out of business. Queens Blvd. became a bus route, while the bridge trolley service remained. In 1927 they bought some used Cincinnati trolleys from New Bedford. 2nd Ave/TARS/5th Ave all had some interest across that bridge (there was a line on the upper part of the bridge as well as the outside of the lower part). In 1942 the Salzbergs aka Steinway/Queens Transit & the bridge line were one big happy family.
"... Who was Queens-Nassau Transit Lines? ..." This was the first Salzberg non-trolley name for the company. Next came Steinway Transit & Queens Transit, then in 1986 Queens Surface Corp.
IIRC, and a BERA Journal was done on this line, the Queens Boulevard
Trolley Line ran till at least the mid thirties. It was busified
when the IND Queens Blvd. Subway went into service. See if BERA
Historian has extra copy or can copy the journal about Queens
Boulevard for you. You'll see him Saturday
>>>"In 1927 they bought some used Cincinnati trolleys from New Bedford."<<<
M&Q, may have both used Cincinnati trolleys, but not from New Bedford.
The New Bedford cars came after WWII and were the Osgood-Bradley
Master Units built 1930 that remain till the end of service. Car 601 is still at TMNY.
>>>"2nd Ave/TARS/5th Ave all had some interest across that bridge (there was a line on the upper part of the bridge as well as the outside of the lower part)."<<<
There was never a trolley on the upper deck. Third Avenue or other
Manhattan Conduit Cars, were on the lower deck inside roadway till 1919.
5th Avenue coach lines route 15 (Now Q32) ran from Jackson Heights
to 25th Street, Manhattan. Fifth Avenues Queen Mary's were used
on the route also via lower roadway.
Third Avenue had some interest in the Bridge Local after 1939 also,
as cars 650 - 655 of the 1939 homebuilt cars with trolley poles,
less resilient wheels. [felt unnecessary because of the steel
decking on outer roadway]. Connection with 59th Street Crosstown
remained till end of Crosstown Service [November, 1946].
:>) ~ Sparky
I'm confused now. I always had a feeling the Q32 was a former trolley line, but you're saying it went to 25th st? Via what, 5th av the whole route on manhattan? If so, then I take it the former trolley never went to NYP, right? Is the rest of the Q32 the same as the trolley, or did the trolley go further than Northern BLVD/83rd st?
"Connection with 59th Street Crosstown
remained till end of Crosstown Service [November, 1946]. "
So, there was a line the whole length of 59th st?
Branford's very own TARS Car 629 regularly ran on the 59th St crosstown for a while before getting shipped to Vienna Austria. There is a picture of it in the Branford guide book on 59th & Ninth.
Car 625 ~ 644 of the 1939 Third Avenue home built cars were built
less trolley poles for service on the 59th Street Crosstown
Line. All cars went to the Bronx & trolley poles were added in
1946, where they served till end of Bronx service in 1948.
Car went to Vienna in 1949.
Branford's 629 wears the TATS paint scheme of service in the Bronx.
Seashore's 631 is decked out in the TARS Manhattan paint scheme.
:>) ~ Sparky
And the third in Washington, D.C. ..... ?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As to the pan, it was ripped off by NCTM's wire frogs, which have no skates for joint pan-pole operations (see MUNI's wire for example).
They managed to tear the pans off the Berlin car and the Graz car as well, I expect the Hague PCC to loose it's some time in the future.
Pantographs and un-skated frogs do not go well together.
Your feeling is WRONG
There were never any trolleys on 5th Avenue.
So, there was a line the whole length of 59th st?
Yes
In 1974 it was renamed M32 to prevent conflict with the M15 1st-2nd Avenues.
In 1988 it became the Q32 to reflect it's primarily Queensian purpose.
I do not know when it was cut back from Madison Square and rerouted to follow the M4 to Penn, it was sometime between 1976 and 1990.
Hagstrom map from 1983 shows it running to Madison Square.
Arti
Of course, I preferred the subway, but my mother pointed out that it was three blocks to 46th-Bliss and three blocks to 40th-Lowery. I got my way with the trains whenever we wanted to go to Broadway, 7th Av, etc. on the west side, and Lexington, 3rd, etc. on the east side.
Re. the 20's for the end of the trolleys on Queens Blvd., that is the information I have, but don't have the source material in front of me. AND I'm not going to look it up !
Re. mfg. Cincinnati vs. Osgood-Bradley, yes I miss-spoke without looking up the detail. The last trolleys to be used on the bridge were in fact Osgood Bradley. Their design was similar to the Brill's of the time.
Re. upper deck cars, yes I knew they were el cars form 2nd Ave. I was only trying to point out what the upper deck was orig. used for.
Do you know why the first buses bought by Salzberg were AFC-Brill's, I do.
I did check with a source and the Last M&Q car - round trip Jamaica-Manhattan - 2:55 AM 4/15/1937.
>>>"Re. mfg. Cincinnati vs. Osgood-Bradley, yes I miss-spoke without looking up the detail. The last trolleys to be used on the bridge were in fact Osgood Bradley. Their design was similar to the Brill's of the time."<<<
Here's one to verify. Were the Manhattan Bridge 3 cent cars that
ran on the Queensboro Bridge Line prior to the Osgood-Bradley
cars, Cincinnati built?
>>>"Do you know why the first buses bought by Salzberg were AFC-Brill's, I do."<<<
No, and I have no interest in it, but would make a good topic for
BusTalk, though.
>>>"I hate folks who ask questions & already have the answer so they can point out your errors :-("<<<
If you are going to make statements on a public message board,
verify the facts are CORRECT or be subject to contradiction.
;>) ~ Sparky
And correct me if I'm wrong, these were leased Third Avenue Cars but
being used on the Queensboro Bridge Line. All until the arrival of
the New Bedford Cars. Since, I do not have this roster there is no
mention of the 650~655 cars on the Queensboro Bridge. I have a
photo of 655 on East 59th Street at the end of 59th Street line
with trolley poles & destination reads New York. Current location
of photo unknown.
;>) ~ Sparky
Thanks for the data from Seyfried's Book. I'm more prone towards
the Brooklyn Trolleys, being a lifelong resident of the Borough
of Kings. I really have no information at all about the Manhattan
Bridge 3 Cent Line. But you did pose some very interesting points.
Also glancing at the ERA Brooklyn StreetCar Trackage Map, besides
the Manhattan Bridge 3 Cent abandoned trackage, it also refers to
"Third Avenue Railway" trackage on the Manhattan Bridge. What
level was this trackage located? 4 Subway tracks & 4 Trolley tracks.
All the lower East River Bridges in their youth were carriers of
trackage, either Subway, Elevated or Street Car.
Queensboro Bridge [till 1919]: 4 Street Car tracks & 2 Elevated.
Williamsburhg Bridge [till 1929]: 4 Street Car & 2 Subway tracks.
Manhattan Bridge: SEE ABOVE Question.
Brooklyn Bridge [till 1941]: 2 Street Car & 2 Elevated tracks.
:>) ~ Sparky
Also Joe Saitta jumped on the band wagon with much information
he is researching for a new book with Vincent Seyfried.
Refer to: Corrected Queens Trolley and Bus Information (618892).
Fantastic reading.
:>) ~ Sparky
"... No, and I have no interest in it, but would make a good topic for
BusTalk, though ..."
Wrong trolley breath, I'm sure you will care ....
Slazberg had an order with Brill for BrilLiners, i.e. PCC look-a-likes. They would have been the only ones of the type here on NYC streets. But,
a certain NYC Mayor, said oh no you don't ! When he tryed to cancel the order it ended up that Brill offered him 50 buses.
That was an interesting piece of Traction Trivia and also the
fact that another Traction Company placed an order for "Brillliners",
besides the "Miss America Fleet" in Atlantic City and the few
demonstraters hither & dither. IIRC, 3 ~ Philadelphia, 1 ~ Baltimore
and 1 ~ Cincinnatti. Now a OT question about the ACF~Brill Buses,
gas or diesel.
Crunching yours of course Mr. T. & LOL.
;>) ~ Sparky
>>>B60 to Fulton St-was the Hamburg(wilson Av) trolley. Did this trolley ever go to the current end on the B60?<<<
Brooklyn Trolley Route 14 [B60] Wilson operated from Williamsburg
Bridge Plaza to Carnarsie Depot. Route 14S Wilson Shuttle from
Carnarsie Depot to Rockaway Parkway Subway Station. In later years
ran all way thru to Rockaway Parkway.
>>>B47-was the Ralph Av trolley<<<
B47 was not Ralph Avenue Trolley. Brooklyn Trolley Route 10
was Ralph~Rockaway, when busified [B40]. Southern terminal
for trolley line was Carnarsie Depot.
Original B47, was Brooklyn Trolley Route 7 to Empire Blvd. &
Flatbush Avenue. Now B-43 south of Flushing Avenue.
>>>B43 from Flushing Av then south-was the Tompkins Av trolley<<<
^^^ See Above ^^^
B39-was the Bridge Local or Q Trolley Line.
>>>Q59-was the Grand St trolley.<<< Was B59 and Trolley Line 59
and operated as far North in Queens as North Beach.
>>>B48 from Broadway then south-was the Franklin Av trolley<<<
B48, is a little trickier.
Brooklyn Trolley Route 47 operated from Williamsburgh Bridge
via Whyte Avenue along with Trolley Route 15 [B61] from Broadway
to Flushing Avenue and then via Franklin Avenue [B48] to Park
Circle.
Brooklyn Trolley Route 48 operated from Box Street & Manhattan
Avenue, Lorimer Street [B48] to Lee Avenue\Nostrand Avenue [B44]
to Empire Boulevard, Ocean Avenue, Parkside Avenue to Park Circle.
October 28, 1945 Trolley Route 47 was discontinued and Trolley
Route 48 was rerouted via Flushing Avenue & Franklin Avenue to
Park Circle. Northern Terminal was also rerouted via Nassau
Avenue and Trolley Route 19 discontinued. Also in later years,
service was cut back from Park Circle to Empire Boulevard.
:>) ~ Sparky
Where was the Canarsie Depot? At New Lots Av?
"B47 was not Ralph Avenue Trolley. Brooklyn Trolley Route 10
was Ralph~Rockaway, when busified [B40]. Southern terminal
for trolley line was Carnarsie Depot."
What I read somewhere is that there was a trolley line running to the Rockaway Parkway subway station via Ralph Av and Rockaway Av. Your sayin that this was the Ralph Rockaway Trolley?
Now, what about the Ralph Av trolley? The B40 is now the B47, which goes down Raplh Av to Av U, then Av U to Flatbush Av. Is this the same routing as the Ralph Av trolley?
"Brooklyn Trolley Route 47 operated from Williamsburgh Bridge
via Whyte Avenue along with Trolley Route 15 [B61] from Broadway
to Flushing Avenue and then via Franklin Avenue [B48] to Park
Circle."
Thank you for clearing this up. So, is the B61 an old trolley line from Red Hook all the way to LIC, or is the B61 an old trolley line only from the Williamsburg bridge to Red Hook. If not, then is it an old trolley route from Williamsburg bridge to LIC?
Also, the 47 trolley route, did that operate down Ocean Av and parkside Av as well to get to Park Circle, or did it cut through the park?
"Northern Terminal was also rerouted via Nassau
Avenue and Trolley Route 19 discontinued."
What was Northern Terminal and what was the routing of the 19?
THANKS SO MUCH FOR ALL THE GREAT INFO!!!
SW corner of the intersection of New Lots Av and Rockaway Av.
What I read somewhere is that there was a trolley line running to the Rockaway Parkway subway station via Ralph Av and Rockaway Av. Your sayin that this was the Ralph Rockaway Trolley?
Now, what about the Ralph Av trolley? The B40 is now the B47, which goes down Raplh Av to Av U, then Av U to Flatbush Av. Is this the same routing as the Ralph Av trolley?
Two trolley routes:
#10 Willy B, Bway, Ralph, St John's, Rockaway (to Canarsie depot)
#11 Willy B, Bway, Ralph, E98 (to Canarsie depot)
Thank you for clearing this up. So, is the B61 an old trolley line from Red Hook all the way to LIC, or is the B61 an old trolley line only from the Williamsburg bridge to Red Hook. If not, then is it an old trolley route from Williamsburg bridge to LIC?
#15 Red Hook to Manhattan/Commercial in Greenpoint.
Also, the 47 trolley route, did that operate down Ocean Av and parkside Av as well to get to Park Circle, or did it cut through the park?
Ocean and Parkside.
"Northern Terminal was also rerouted via Nassau
Avenue and Trolley Route 19 discontinued."
What was Northern Terminal and what was the routing of the 19?
IINM, #48's Northern terminal was either Bedford/Manhattan or Commercial/Manhattan. #19 ran for a very short distance between Manhattan Av and Meeker Av on Nassau Av.
Via willy B? Also, what do you mean, commercial in Greenpoint. Did it go to Greenpoint from Manhattan or Red Hook?
The B61 bus still pretty much follows the old trolley route, but there have been changes over the years.
In recent years, it has been extended via Jackson Avenue, Long
Island City for service to Queens Plaza South.
:>) ~ Sparky
Was Long Island City the nothern terminus of #15 Crosstown? Any
photo[s] I have seen of said location, next to the 108th Pct.
shows car on the #16 Graham Avenue route. From what I remember
the Crosstown Cars did not go to Long Island City. Even after
the #16 Graham Avenue was bustituted with ETBs in December, 1948
and became the B62 which ran over the Manhattan Ave. Bridge to
LIC till the Pulaski Bridge opened in 1951 and the #15 Crosstown
was motorized and the terminals exchanged. BTW, the #16 when
in operation for its entire length was a TriBorough Car Line!
>>>"Commercial St. in Greenpoint is where the cars could short turn or go into storage at the Crosstown Depot. This street runs behind the site of the old Crosstown carbarn on Manhattan Ave."<<<
In its peak the loop tracks at Manhattan Avenue, Commercial Street
and Box Streets, besides being the location of the Crosstown Car
House, was a transportation hub. Route #17 Greenpoint Line,
Route #15 Crosstown, Route #48 Lorimer Street & Route #56 Union Avenue
all used the location as their northern terminal.
>>>"This street runs behind the site of the old Crosstown carbarn on Manhattan Ave."<<<
The Crosstown Car House was on Manhattan Avenue & Box Street,
not Commercial Street.
>>>"The NYCTA Bus painting facility on Commercial St. still has the pit tracks in their building."<<<
Yes, that's the new Crosstown Depot. And is the service building
with the pit used by Bus Painting or Emergency Response. Also the
mobil wash unit is located at old Crosstown Depot.
:>) ~ Sparky
Thanks for the clarifications on Crosstown routings.
I wanna copy of that footage for Christmas.
Now, while were on the subject of the new Crosstown Depot bulding and
its pit track, did they only service the 6000s in the building
from 1947/48 till end of service in 1951. Or was a joint service
facility for the 3000s [ETBs], which ran out of Crosstown till
end of service in 1960? Were the 3000s ever serviced at Crosstown
or was it a storage facility only?
:>) ~ Sparky
No. SW corner of Rockaway and Hegeman.
I use the ERA Brooklyn track map for reference.
:>) ~ Sparky
Don't you remember when this route was created by combining the B40 and B78 on September 8, 2002?
The B78 ran from Rutland Road to Avenue U and Mill Avenue and was created in 1966. It was never a trolley. It was extended to Kings Plaza sometime after 1976 (Kings Plaza opened in 1970).
OK, actually, there was a spur of the Flatbush Avenue service that branched off of the line on Avenue N and turned onto Ralph Avenue, but then it ran there only very briefly, turning then onto Mill Avenue and then east onto Strickland Avenue. This was one track and stopped in 1926.
http://www.backinthebronx.com/takeridedetails.html
Before the major bus route reorganization in The Bronx, the Southern Boulevard route (now the Bx19, was back then the Bx31) did not go to Manhattan. It's southern terminus was at 133rd Street and Bruckner Boulevard. It would be reasonable to assume that the trolley's route was the same as the bus route that initially replaced it.
Similarly, since the Bx9 bus route bears the same name (Bronx & Van Cortlandt Parks) as the old trolley line, it would be reasonable to assume that the trolley line followed the same route as the bus does. I don't think the trolley would have been called Bronx & Van Cortlandt Parks if it had turned south onto Webster Avenue from Fordham Road.
I could be wrong, but I believe that TARS did run routes wholly within The Bronx, as well as routes in Manhattan.
You are correct. I don't have my reference material handy to list some of the routes, but they did have Bronx-only lines.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So, the old Bronx&Van Cortland Park trolley ran from West Farms Square to the county line via todays Bx9 routing?
Hey, did we meet at Croton? I was with Trevor Logan, Incognito and some other people outside. I think Ozzy(Costanza) was there and so was Neil Feldman?
Sorry, but I wasn't at Croton. Why, do I look familiar? ;-)
The following routes crossed the Willy B:
#7 Tompkins Avenue (until 8/24/47) B39+B43
#10 Ralph-Rockaway Avenues (until 5/27/51) B39+B47+St John's Pl+B60 (to Canarsie depot)
#44 Nostrand Avenue (until 4/1/51) B39+B44
The following routes terminated at the Bridge Plaza:
#3 Sumner Avenue (until 7/20/47) B15+B65W+B75+B71 or B15 (to Canarsie depot)
#11 Ralph Av (until ??? - prob 5/27/51) B47+B15 (to Canarsie depot)
#14 Wilson Avenue (until 5/27/51) B60
#24 Broadway (until 1/15/50) Q24
#46 Utica - Reid Avenues (until 3/18/51) B46 (to Av N)
#47 Franklin Avenue (until 10/28/45) B48+Ocean+Parkside (to Park Circle)
#50 Bushwick Avenue (until 9/1/47) B60+B13+B54 (to Myrtle/Wyckoff)
Seeing as there were dedicated tracks on the bridge and an eight track terminal at Essex St, I don't know why so many trollies terminated at the Bridge Plaza.
I can take a guess here. Back then, the Williamsburg area, especially near the waterfront was a busy industrial area. Breweries, factories, shipbuilders, the Havemeyer sugar plant, lots of jobs for people to have to get to.
And it could be political and competitive reasons also. Some type of agreement where those Brooklyn lines had to end at the Plaza.
#7 Tompkins Avenue (until 8/24/47) B39+B43
#10 Ralph-Rockaway Avenues (until 5/27/51) B39+B47+St John's Pl+B60 (to Canarsie depot)
#44 Nostrand Avenue (until 4/1/51) B39+B44"<<<
James,
A minor correction to the above motorization dates of streetcar
routes. The dates shown are the date of bustitution, but trolley
service on the Williamsburgh Bridge ended 12/4/48. Also in the
last years only the Bridge Local, route Q operated over the
Willie B. Do not know what year thru cars stopped running to
Delancey Street.
And on #7 Tompkins as run North to Williamsburgh, would be
B39+B47. The current B-43 does not serve the former Northern
sections of Route #7 (trolley) & #B47 (ETB & Bus).
And #14 Wilson Avenue, was cut back from Bridge Plaza to
Broadway & Marcy Avenue prior to motorization.
;>) ~ Sparky
M1: on Madison and Park/4th yes, (it used the tunnel), on 5th, no
M2: no
M3: no
M4: no
M5: no
M6: yes
M7: yes
M8: yes
M9: yes
M10: yes
M11: yes
M14: yes
M15: yes
M16: no
M18: no
M20: yes
M21: no
M22: yes
M23: yes
M27: no
M30: no
M31: yes
M34: yes
M35: no
M42: yes
M50: no
M57: no
M60: no
M66: no
M72: no
M79: no
M86: no
M96: no
M98: no
M100: yes
M101: yes
M102: yes
M103: yes
M104: yes
M106: no
M116: no
Bx15: yes
Bx33: yes
Bx6: yes
Bx3/11/13/35/36: don't know
Bx12: yes, don't remember how far east though (NOT VIA PELHAM PKWY!)
Bx7: no
Bx20: sort of
B1: yes north of 25th Avenue, no otherwise
B2: no
B3: no
B4: no
B6: no
B7: no
B8: no
B9: no
B11: no
B12: no
B13: no
B14: no
B15: yes, but not the part to JFK Airport
B16: no
B17: no
B20: no
B23: yes
B24: yes
B25: yes
B26: yes
B31: no
B35: yes
B36: yes, but not all the way east
B37: yes
B38: yes
B41: yes
B42: yes
B43: yes
B44: yes
B45: yes
B46: yes
B47: Yes north of St. John's Place, no south of it
B48: yes
B49: yes, but not to Manhattan Beach
B51: no
B52: yes
B54: yes
B57: yes
B60: yes
B61: yes
B63: yes
B64: don't remember
B65: yes
B67: yes
B68: yes
B69: yes
B70: don't remember
B71: don't remember
B74: yes, sort of
B75: yes
B77: yes
B82: no
B83: no
B100: no
B103: no
Note that this list is very very sketchy. I will consult my archives for more detail and Bronx and Staten Island.
Don't ask me about Queens, sorry.
The current M106 is of late 90's vintage, having replaced the M19 designation. Of course, the M19 used to have two branches, one of which became the M96 in the late 80's or early 90's, at the same time as the M18 became the M86.
The current M18 is a minor modification of what used to be the Convent Avenue routing for the M3. In the 80's all M3's began running via St. Nicholas, and it wasn't for a number of years that the Convent routing returned, with a different number and with infrequent service. At first, I think, the (new) M18 otherwise ran exactly like the M3, but that was changed in the late 90's.
??
Michael
Washington, DC
It was probably the REAR of the train that was blocking an intersection, the train was probably a little longer that the crew allowed for, and so were unaware that they failed to clear the intersection. The probably tied up as close to the next one as they could have done without blocking that one. But what the heck, there are other crossings in town.
We have three crossings in our town, the outer two exactly one mile apart. Yes there are trains longer than that one mile, but the crews know how long their trains are (more or less) and where they have to stop so as not to foul all three crossings.
If train A gets flagged by the wheel detector, he is supposed to keep moving east until he clears Highway 8. Even if he should fail to clear HWY 8, he will have surely cleared B Street. The Following train B, knowing that A went down, will stop west of the unnamed dirt road at the west end of town. Indeed, I have sat there and shot the breeze with the crew while the train ahead of them did a walkdown.
That walkdown takes quite some time, since the engineer remains with the locomotive, it is the conductor who must climb down and walk a mile out on one side and a mile back on the other. By then, the hot axel will surely have cooled off, and he will never find it anyway.
Elias
PS you would not stop in our town to eat no matter how hungry you were.
Yes, then each crewman only walks a half mile. But that is not going to happen, BNSF does not care how far a conductor must walk, or how long it takes. All trains on this line are extra, there are no timetable trains.
Elias
Anyway, having a man in back does save a great deal of time, however riding back there leads to injury and death. It's a tradeoff.
And I figured you monks were good cooks... after all, you're all as round as Friar Tuck, right? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Some of us are not so plump, but others are. We seldom do our own cooking, we hire people for that, but our refectory is not open to the public like that, and we are too far from the tracks in any event.
Actually there is a cafe in town, and it does serve nice meals. The crew *could* stop west of B Street and only be blocking the unnamed dirt road. Still why do that when there are dozens of nice places in Dickinson, which *used* to be a crew break point. They can *still* tie up there for burgers, but the boss would be watching.
Elias
If the axle had been really hot, it's possible to find it after it have
cooled off. You have to look carefully at the wheel. If it haves a
different colour and/or is very oily. Voila!
lol
Rush hour trains delayed as Train Operator leaves train to get Breakfast
Elias
Peace,
ANDEE
GOOD LUCK!
Recently in one NYCT facility a feral cat lost her tail and was badly burned when the tail touched a 3rd rail while the cat crossed the tracks. Many people in the facility donated to get the animal treated and then one adopted it.
Fortunately, there are some 'rescue' groups that try to help these poor creatures and their sad circumstances.
We volunteer at the local SPCA here, and see how much more is needed. There are just not enough funds or people to take care of all of the stray cats and dogs that are around today. Prospective homes for these strays are few and far between, and as a result the euthanization rate is very high. Many people will adopt kittens or puppies, and then will turn around and dump them off in another neighborhood or bring them back in a few months, simply because they "grew up".
Two months ago a local resident brought a nursing mother cat and a number of tiny kittens to our local animal shelter. Poor handling by one of the full time staff resulted in the mother cat escaping while being transferred from the car to the shelter. She ran into the woods next to the shelter. Efforts to trap the mother cat for over a week failed.
No amount of care and nursing to the tiny kittens could save them without the mother cat's care, and they did not survive.
It turned out that a local resident's good intentions resulted in death for all of the kittens.
Would just like to know, have there been any talks of extending any of the PATH lines, on the New Jersey or Manhattan side? furthermore would they even allow extensions on the Manhattan side?
There was talk of extending PATH to Newark Airport but we all know how taht turned out.
PATH will never expanded within NYC. The MTA would never allow it.
Besides where would PATH go to in NYC that isn't covered some way by the subway?
PATH is not interested in, nor chartered to be, an extension of the subway system. It is a TRANS HUDSON Service, serving the ports of New York and New Jersey.
Could another PATH lion be brought into Manhattan? Yes, why not. But that is all that it will do is arrive at some transportation hub in Manhattan, it will provide service to and from New Jersey.
OK what *is* possible?
Just a quick, off the top of my head sketch, it's primary service is to use the parking facilities at the Meadowlands as a great Park-N-Ride center with additional access at Seacaucus and Union City, with destinations at 8th Avenue and Park Avenue on 57th Street in NYC.
OK, so it is not contigious with existing the PATH system. So What? All I have demonstrate is a possibility for a new service operated by PATH. It is in keeping with the goals that I have mentioned, and it will become a most valuable link when I achieve my plot of closing the Lincon Tunnel to all but busses during the rush hours.
: ) Elias
When its time comes that could be the preextension project, leave a provision at Union City if the PA for the possibility, if allowed, of coming into NYC via your route
Just a side thought tho, would NJTransit begin to react at that extension?
Theres a lot of areas a few years back we would have never concieved to become as crowded and popular to be. It starts with the light rail.
If PATH were to expand, the only place would probably be Newark Airport as it belongs to the PA, and it could follow the NJT tracks. Any other extension would be stretching a bit too far regarding funds and NIMBYs.
For right now the most Jersey City needs is an elevator at Grove Street Station.
The West side is and already being built up, a cross line on 34th would help and if the MTA is not going to do it, let someone else.
Buses can only do some much, they are at the mercy of crowded streets, traffic and bad weather, ie the snow we just had. Esp the M8 throught that area
The issue I see with the 9th Ave extension is not that a bus runs there already, but moreso potentially compromising the integrity of the old buildings, the density of the area already, and unless it went to 14th Street to connect with the 4 train, it seems pointless.
Actually there is already a crosstown line on 34th St - it is called the LIRR. All they would need to do is add a station or two.
If the MTA won't do it, no one else can. The underground right of way (under 34th St) by the MTA. Just like the MTA owns the ROW under Park Avenue for MNRR.
Elias
If the cost were not prohibitive, I would like a LIRR / Penn station on the east side, say at Third Avenue.
The 34th Street on the HBLR refers to Bayonne. It goes up to 56 (I think) there.
Arti
As for the Jersey side, time will tell that one.
The far West Side is NOT served by subway BTW
Until the last of these bonds mature or are fully called, PATH cannot expand.
And don't even think of adding to PATH's routes in NYC - the PA does not want to increase the per-passenger subsidy, so who would pay it?
Understood why add more to something thats loosing money, but maybe an extension could have turned it around.
Is the PATH making money now or still loosing?
Do you know or have an idea how long it will take those bonds to expire?
In fact when PATH went on strike one summer, they didn't even negotiate for several months as the PA was glad to save the money that were from NOT operating the system.
Because if they hadn't the H & M would have shut down (it was bankrupt) and no other operator wanted it.
"Is the PATH making money now or still loosing? "
PATH was losing money from the start.
The PATH is very heavily subsidized, but that is true of just about every transit system in the world.
The PA absolutely did not want to get involved in transit, so yet, it was part of the deal to get the WTC started, and it completely replaced their Hudson Terminal complex when the WTC site was moved from the East river, where it was originally proposed.
Only in the 1980s did the PA get more "enlightened", and used some of their tax-free bond financing to purchase NJT buses and NYC buses too for the MTA (the ones with 'PA' in the number).
Look at some of the cars, near the bottom it says: PORT OF NEW YORK AUTHORITY OWNER AND LESSOR
At a public meeting about the Newark Airport access in 1997/8, when PA officials were introducing the new monorail proposal, they also explained that they thought extending the PATH was not "feasible". I asked if the bonds outstanding prevented the extension and they said "yes".
Because to go down the NEC would involve big big bucks
Switching to another line would involve bigger bucks, especially a heavy freight line like the Lehigh. PATH has no trackage rights on the Lehigh Line, and the FRA specs of the current PATH cars are out of date.
Rest assured, though, that the PATH train would not use existing NEC tracks if indeed it ever gets extended to the EWR station, but use extensions of its own tracks (via a flyover south of South Street then a dedicated stretch of the former Waverly Yard). PATH has to date never shared tracks with Amtrak/NJT on a permanent basis (one exception that comes to mind was when NJT ran the Bergen Shore Express and used the now-gone Center Street Branch connector that crossed the PATH track—and this was not a case of PATH operating on NJT but the other way around, of course)…
AAA Anaa, French Polynesia
to
ZZV Zanesville, OH [Zanesville Municipal Airport], USA
with the least transfers.
Mark
From there it's only another 1 1/2 miles to the Newark Rail link station, a flyover or tunnel would have to be built to get the PATH over to the East side of the NEC.
The project would be much less than $500-750 million if it did not have to cross the NEC, $500 Million for a bridge/fly-over and $750 Million if they tunnel under the NEC.
It's actualy a project NY Politicians such as Mayor Bloomberg, Governor Pataki and Charles Gargano support.
It's also the easiest way to link Downtown to "an airport", something the big Downtown Firms are pushing hard to accomplish.
Build the tunnel!
Newsday link
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/transportation/nyc-nytunn093577129dec09,0,4838355.story?coll=nyc-topheadlines-left
Arti
BTW PATH capacity has a lot to do with NJ Transit's capacity to Manhattan.
Arti
Following that logic 63rd st tunnel has nothing to do with 53rd st tunnel. Anyway, care to substantiate your statement.
Arti
PATH cannot replace a new Hudsson tube, even if you expand it.
From the article:
About 340,000 riders arrive and depart from Penn Station daily on Amtrak, Long Island Rail Road and NJ Transit. That number is expected to grow to about 432,000 by 2010.
If you compare the numbers, it's not that far-fetched, PATH sseems like a good candidate for expansion.
Arti
I think that a NE corridor tunnel would benefit more people overall than a PATH tunnel.
Not according to PATH schedules, max is 25tph (not 40) to Midtown.
though the possibility of 10-car trains adds a little capacity.
Not little, but 20%.
I think that a NE corridor tunnel would benefit more people overall than a PATH tunnel.
Questionable.
Arti
Sean@Temple
Arti
I'm not talking about new tube for PATH, that would be a complete waste of money. What I'm saying, is that it looks like PATH has capacity to absorb projected ridership crossing the river.
Actually I don't understand the need for Secaucus transfer as it duplicates excisting service at significanlty lower quality levels compared to PATH.
Arti
Ridership in 2000 -- about 60,000 on Downtown PATH, 30,000 on Uptown Path, 40,000 on NJT direct to Penn.
(Actually I don't understand the need for Secaucus transfer as it duplicates excisting service at significanlty lower quality levels compared to PATH. )
PATH takes most NJT riders far out of their way, if they are going to Midtown. A transfer to where you are going is one thing, a transfer to a transfer with a roundabout route is anoter.
Unfortunately, NJT riders would be better served by a direct connection to Grand Central rather than Penn. The ARC study only considered a one-seat ride to GCT, which is impractical.
My preferred solution is a suburban super-connector from Secaucus Transfer, across to GCT via a new tunnel (stop in Times Square), down to Lower Manhattan as express tracks of the SAS, and out to Jamaica via the Atlantic Avenue Branch of the LIRR. With an easy connection, it would bring NJT riders to Grand Central and MetroNorth and LIRR riders to Lower Manhattan. The Airtrain could use it too.
Also unfortunately, people in NJ want improvements, but only if they can force people in New York to pay for them. Note the gas tax increase rejection announced today.
So PATH serves almost twice as many commuters, with the possibility to add 50% with minimal investment?
PATH takes most NJT riders far out of their way, if they are going to Midtown. A transfer to where you are going is one thing, a transfer to a transfer with a roundabout route is anoter.
According to schedules the difference is 4 - 10 minutes in favor of NJT for Main line passangers. Trip times from Hoboken via PATH and Secaucus via NJT are equal. Also PATH has more useful destinations possibly removing another transfer to MTA.
Unfortunately, NJT riders would be better served by a direct connection to Grand Central rather than Penn. The ARC study only considered a one-seat ride to GCT, which is impractical.
I'd agree with GCT option, as this could possibly save more than an hour a day for NJ to East Side commuters.
Arti
I think mobile homes would be the ultimate answer.
Arti
The New Economy made it much more likely that you will change jobs before you change housing. Corporations and Workers today have no loyalty to each toher, and will happily toss one another over when they have a chance. Its no longer possible to plan where you want to live around where you want to work, since you probably won't work there in 10 years. This is especially hard if you plan to raise a family.
(According to schedules the difference is 4 - 10 minutes in favor of NJT for Main line passangers. Trip times from Hoboken via PATH and Secaucus via NJT are equal. Also PATH has more useful destinations possibly removing another transfer to MTA.)
You mean to say a Midtown direct train from Secaucus takes only four more minutes than a train to Hoboken, followed by a trip back to Herald Square via PATH?
(Unfortunately, NJT riders would be better served by a direct connection to Grand Central rather than Penn. The ARC study only considered a one-seat ride to GCT, which is impractical.
I'd agree with GCT option, as this could possibly save more than an hour a day for NJ to East Side commuters. )
Wait a minute. If your prior point was correct, and going first to Hoboken and then back to 33rd Street via PATH takes about the same time as going direct to Penn, then this point requires a one-hour subway ride from Herald Square to Grand Central.
Yep, as currently scheduled.
http://www.njtransit.com/pdf/rail/current/r0020.pdf
Wait a minute. If your prior point was correct, and going first to Hoboken and then back to 33rd Street via PATH takes about the same time as going direct to Penn, then this point requires a one-hour subway ride from Herald Square to Grand Central.
1 hour roundtrip. Firstly the only direct connection to GCT is a bus. Subway is a 2 seat ride. Also, remember the discussion here regarding getting from Penn to GC in 15 minutes, what was deemed impossible.
Remember Secaucus to Penn (NJT) and Hoboken to Penn (PATH) take the same amount of time.
Arti
Right, but if you are coming from I-78 or north, you have to go from Secaucus to Hoboken first. That's what I mean, going south to go north, and switching twice.
Anyway, ARC features high cost terminal space at Penn, while the link direct to GCT, in addition to being hard to build, features taking terminal space away from MetroNorth at GCT, one reason New York fought it. Going into Manhattan from one direction and out the other features no new terminal space at all, saving big bucks. And the marginal cost of four tracks down Second Avenue vs. two (the middle tracks with no stations) is low low. Hence, my idea.
It would also add a suburban interest in seeing the lower half of the SAS built.
Once, either at Secaucus or Hoboken. I wouldn't suggest that NEC passangers would go via Hoboken.
Going into Manhattan from one direction and out the other features no new terminal space at all, saving big bucks. And the marginal cost of four tracks down Second Avenue vs. two (the middle tracks with no stations) is low low. Hence, my idea.
The major problem I see here, that there would be no agency that has real interest of building it.
It would also add a suburban interest in seeing the lower half of the SAS built.
I doubt that NJ interests will fly far in Albany.
Arti
Errmmm... why not call it the 7 train? It could do with a more spacious Western terminal than TSQ. Furthermore it is the one direction it can be extended in without overloading the trains AND it's deep enough.
down to Lower Manhattan as express tracks of the SAS
What express tracks? Isn't that what Downtown PATH is for?
and out to Jamaica via the Atlantic Avenue Branch of the LIRR.
Now there's a nice idea...
Unfortunately, NJT riders would be better served by a direct connection to Grand Central rather than Penn. The ARC study only considered a one-seat ride to GCT, which is impractical
Why is it impractical? They were proposing a short tunnel from NYP to GCT’s lower level. If NY could agree to help out NJ, from where 54 percent of its commuting trips come, such a tunnel could have been under construction already instead of simply being talked about.
My preferred solution is a suburban super-connector from Secaucus Transfer, across to GCT via a new tunnel (stop in Times Square), down to Lower Manhattan as express tracks of the SAS, and out to Jamaica via the Atlantic Avenue Branch of the LIRR. With an easy connection, it would bring NJT riders to Grand Central and MetroNorth and LIRR riders to Lower Manhattan. The Airtrain could use it too.
Your preferred solution costs more than Amtrak will ever see in ten years at its present level of funding. It makes the Access To The Region’s Core Alternative G seem like an utter bargain by contrast. Plus I see the continuing prejudice against NJ commuters—why direct access to Lower Manhattan for LIRR and Metro-North but not NJ Transit? If two-seat rides are good enough for NJT riders, they are certainly good enough for the patrons of the (erstwhile?) “MTA Railroad”…
(Your preferred solution costs more than Amtrak will ever see in ten years at its present level of funding.)
Not if you assume that Jamaica to Lower Manhattan, the Second Avenue Subway, and ARC will be built. In that case it saves money, because it adds no terminal space in Manhattan.
Arti
I honestly would prefer to be in your killfile, rather than read your meaningless responses
Two answers to that; you made the effort consciously, and res ipsa loquitur when it comes to “meaningless”. I think enough people on here told you that you were off-topic when it came to mentioning PATH and that PATH will never be expanded.
Arti
Elias
At 8:50 AM, at my home station, I just missed an N/B Q local train. So I waited what should be the next express train. Suddenly an announcement from Dekalb master tower briefly told customers that Manhattan bound trains will not stop at Newkirk Ave and they must go to either Avenue H or Kings Highway. I went to the opposite platform to see that a dog has wandered closely to the stopped < Q > train just outside the station. Police Officers were already at the scene and the ( Q ) from Avenue H also pulled up. Both trains sitting outside Newkirk, the dog hides under the platform and sits there, complicating the rescue efforts. After 10 minutes the < Q > is allowed a slow roll of about 5 MPH but is also ordered to bypass us. The ( Q ) is still sitting outside but 3rd rail cut off is also ordered. After another 10 minutes, the ( Q ) that was stranded is allowed to proceed and made the stop at Newkirk.
Sometimes things is the subway DO happen, however while on the train, a so-called friend of mine pissed me off during a normal conversation. She told the she wanted the dog walk onto the live 3rd rail and be electrocuted so they can remove the dead animal and she can be on her way to work. Some people are just self-centered and a bunch of jerks when is comes to animals, I myself am an animal lover so I almost cussed at her stupid remark.
Anyway, good job by NYCT for handling the dog incident (the trains stopped safely) and limiting the delay to about 20 minutes.
I doubt people would say that if it was a baby instead of a dog.
Imagine a baby instead of a dog. Funny how people are cynical when is comes to valuing human life.
I hope the dog was arrested for entering a non-public area... :-P
I'd arrest the dispatcher who knowingly ordered him to proceed down the tracks knowing a dog was loose on them.
The only thing I like as much as trains is dogs, so you can really understand how infuriated I was when that story broke.
I don't think the motorman was instructed to run over the dog. Being told to proceed is a lot different than being told to run over the dog. (By the way, the word is incident)
I realized the mistake after I posted it.
See here.
Oh My! back in the early 80's I counted about 30 between Lynbrook and Jamaica.
Elias
What happened was, there was a dog on the tracks along Central Park West. Service was suspended (more than once, if memory serves) while the dog was looked for, but every time the police and/or transit workers got close to it, the dog would go hide somewhere (emergency exits, etc.). Ultimately, it was determined that the dog had gotten out of the tunnel, and the Train Operators were instructed to proceed. Unfortunately, the dog had NOT escaped, and it darted in front of a D train and was killed. The Train Operator was beside himself with grief. The media played the incident up (the Post posthumously named the dog "Token"), and starting that afternoon, I received several VERY nasty calls from people who professed to love animals but had no qualms about threatening to bomb 370 Jay Street and kill everybody in it.
David
For example: "I like Chris Rivera's photographs."
: )
Mark
That's atrophy; apostraphe is when you talk to inanimate object's.
Mark
Like some of the posters here?
ON TOPIC EXAMPLE:
It's a great day to ride an R-9, and enjoy its wonderful memories.
As used in this sentence, ITS is not a word.
Or February which has 28.
You also leave off the last S when buying sleep equipment over the phone.
To make plural nouns that end in s possessive, add only an ' (many boys' toys).
To make plural nouns not ending in s possessive, add an 's (men's toys).
There are exceptions to these rules!
Jimbo
There is an incredibly silly convention that that rule only applies if the word is two syllables or more. So:
St Barnabas' Church
St Thomas' Church
but
St James's Church
Needless to say, rules are meant to fit language, not language fit the rules. I, for one, don't (or dont) give a damn.
Cheers to that. Now let's get back to the trains.
Ho about those cool old IND pillar signs:
D'LANC'Y
N'RTH'N BLVD
Now how much extra space would it have been to add a "E" or "O" to those?
L. B. & S. C. RY
In case anyone's wondering - the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway.
Why?
Don't try to figure it out, it's impossible.
Works on contingency
No money down
Said with a certain amount of bitterness. I learned French (O-Level), Spanish (O-Level), Latin (O-Level), Modern Greek (in USA but at least to A-Level fluency). I could just not learn German.
Mark
How about "glo'al stop"?
Sorry, no offense, I'm just seeing how many of these suckers I can stick into my posts today, you made it too easy.
isn,t this cool. i,ve had lot,s of fun.
Poor old WESTCODE44 uses single quotation marks instead of double quotation marks to emphasize a few words, and the whole board goes into a rant on when to use an apostrophe.
What the hell does a single quotation mark have to do with an apostrophe?
'paper's,' 'lover's,' and 'action's' are the issues he're. Sir John Holme's needs to go back to school car to learn 'English.' :)
Should it be:
1) "Arnine," he said.
or
2) "Arnine", he said.
?
I was always taught (2) and I think (1) looks somewhat illogical and ugly, but I think this one is actually down to opinion - right?
"Arnine," he answered.
and
He answered, "Arnine."
Punctuation for the quoted clause is supposed to go inside the quotes.
If I only could.........
Ive been trying to get Karl (who lives in Gettysburg, which is not that far from Charm City) to visit BSM for the last couple of years.
He does drive down to Owings Mills every once in a while (to go to Orioles games), and BSM is just a quick hop down I-795 to the Beltway to the Jones Falls Expressway to get to the home of Baltimore's streetcars.
I think it is the case of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".
I do really intend to get to BSM. I have wanted to get to BERA for many years as well, but unfortunately neither goal has been accomplished yet.
I'll get there, I promise.
(Just for the record, I haven't been able to get to Owings Mills or Camden Yards in almost 2 and a 1/2 years either.)
Campaign for real typography, coming to a web site near you!
I have like 20 computers that are RUINED because it says PRESS ANY KEY to continue and the keyboard doesn't have an any key!
It's a good thing that Windows XP has never crashed, otherwise I'd have to throw this computer away too (here it's 2003 and still no any key!)
The tilde and the caret are important characters.
That said, the tilde is an important modifier, especially for Spanish, where is a different letter from n. However, US (and UK) keyboards dont have any dead keys (where the key doesnt cause a glyph to appear, it modifies the next key typed, so allowing accented letters). And if a caret and a tilde, why not a grave, acute and umlaut? (The French can keep the cedilla.)
I believe the reason the keys are on current US keyboards is because they were on the old Teletype ASR/KSR keyboards, but why they were there is history I dont know.
Why is there a $ on a US keyboard, but not a ?
And, my favourite, British Keyboards have a , which is often above the 3, displacing the #, which Brits call a hash symbol, and Americans a pound?!
Disclaimer: some glyphs in this message use ASCII encodings with numbers >128, where there are multiple versions. If your system is not set to the same encoding, or you are viewing this on a Macintosh or a ****x system, you will different glyphs or nothing.
Some day we will all use Unicode.
What do US keyboards have where the hash sign should be then (ie in the last position of the middle line asdfghjkl;'#).
I guess it is - but it's a satisfyingly large key to hit.
At least we've stopped calling it the return key.
My favourite useless keys are { and } - the only reason you'd want that shape bracket would be to group things on several lines, so having a single line version is pointless. Also, quite why do I want a , ` or | key?
I guess the US is one step of ahead of the UK in not having that key.
It's shift ` (key left of the 1 key). Well done USA on not having it.
That's what ~ is for :-p
Ah - that makes sense. ~ on UK keyboards is shift #, which is where your enter key is.
What do you have as SHIFT-4?
That sounds familiar - one day at Uni I found a computer that did that. Most annoying trying to e-mail zzz199"le.ac.uk
What do you have as SHIFT-4?
$ - I presume you have the same.
On a standard US 101-Key keyboard, the numbers have
!@#$%^&*()
1234567890
| is used as logical OR in several programming languages.
was used as logical NOT in PL1, and only appeared on EBCDIC keyboards (IBM3270 terminal style). Why it hung around in Microsofts extended ASCII, I have no idea.
I still want to know which language uses .
(Dont get me started on APL!)
Pedant.
{} are bracesI agree that single-line verseions are useless. The symbol character sets used for mathematics have the components to make multi-line braces, which are the only useful ones AFAIK.
So and would be much more useful keys to have. I wonder if there's any way of reprogramming my computer to display when I type {.
| is used as logical OR in several programming languages.
I guess there's also some use in wanting to write |root 10|, if only there were a root key.
was used as logical NOT in PL1, and only appeared on EBCDIC keyboards (IBM3270 terminal style). Why it hung around in Microsofts extended ASCII, I have no idea.
Perfect location for the key...
I still want to know which language uses .
e olde nglish lngwge use e lettere orn.
It is remarkably stupid that US keyboards lack a symbol for a unit of their own nation's currency.
No, they can't. If you are referring to an amount in British money from before the Norman Conquest until 1971, 1/4d means something completely different from d.
This is a completely worthless feature in the US, and it seems almost completely worthless in the UK.
Use Character Map or ASCII codes to differentiate your farthings from your shillings and four pence.
No. Before Britain went 'off Gold' (I think) in the 1930's teachers' strike, a pound was worth its weight in Sterling Silver. Hence 'Pound Sterling'.
AEM7
That does not erase them from historical usage (nor Ceylon's irritating way of issuing farthings).
I liked the Panda joke.
http://www.economist.co.uk/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2269440
I'm off to attend the Yahoo Serious Film Festival
Call out the rescue squad!
If it really was up to me, since both trains stopped safely, I would've jumped out and rescued the dog. Then again my butt would've been in the seven-o prison for trespassing. Great picture, really BRIGHTNING up my day.
This is what monks do in their spare time?
Me? non. Some one sent it in an email.
: ) Elias
He also climbed over the third rails from express track to express track, dripping with snow, but managed to get across safely. Everyone on the platform looked away, anticipating the obvious.
And it was longer than 10 minutes. More like 1/2 hour.
But my question is why they bypassed the station, northbound only. The dog was all over the place, but the southbound trains stopped. Why was the northbound ordered to not stop. Stopping and opening the doors so us poor working fools (OK, not so poor) could get to work wasn't going to hurt the dog any more northbound than southbound.
BTW, the dog got on a train at Cortelyou, got off at Newkirk. Did he pay his fare?
South end of N/B platform, funny how when a Q train partially pulls in, people quickly stand in front to board it. Knowing the C/R was next to me and not in his normal position (about 2 cars off), I told people to safely back away until the train was fully in the station. At 9:20, we boarded and left.
He obviously was under the MTA's height limit for free admission.
BTW, I heard the dog was later charged with fare evasion...;-)
It was better for me to walk away from an asshole than to start saying things like that because when I talk loud, I REALLY AM LOUD. And when someone pisses me off like that then I really say things that will make that B**** get off at Cortelyou Road (the next stop after the dog incident.)
I just hope the dog is in good hands now.
Sure, instead of running him down with a subway train they take him to the ASPCA and they put him down with a needle.
Keeps the press happy, but the raptors miss out on a meal.
Elias
www.SavetheG.org
Check it out
Does anyone have the rider numbers to prove/disprove this claim?
Website link: http://www.savetheg.org/
Incedentally, I had an idea for retiring the R38's when the first R160's come in. Take all the R46 A-A sets, and enough 4-car sets to match, and put them in Pitkin for use on the C line. Move some new R160's into Jamaica, and run them on the R, G, and V lines (supplimented by existing cars, of course).
No one rides the G? Bulls**t. I have to walk through a sea of people 10-deep to get to the G only if the G has arrived from 21 St - Van Alst while I'm walking through the passageway. Other times, the passageway is peaceful and empty.
But when you see all those people come up from the stairs and head towards you, get into single file.
David
Hoyt-Schermerhorn, evening rush. Always crowded. Not crushloads, but well into standing room.
David
However during off-peak hours, it's quite empty.
Sorry for making it seem more serious than it really is. But I do have to say that the four-car trains cannot handle the rush hour crowds very well.
David
wayne
What we're actually going to see is an increase in whining and complaining from people who move to an area that ALREADY supposedly has poor transit. Let me see...if I was one of those people, would I want to move to an area that has "second class" subway service, or would I want to move to an area that has BETTER service? DUH!
I think Larry would be quite insulted by that one...
http://www.culvershuttle.com/
: )
Mark
If only they had RFWs!
Actually, my heart did skip a beat when I saw this headline, because just last week I had seen on the news that Italy was bracing for a terrorist attack, and they showed film footage of the Rome subway. I was afraid something did happen there.
Anyway, The trains do look just like NY in the 70's. In fact, many cities subway's look like that now. Berlin is another, and I think Munich also. They are covered from one end to the other. I have seen a book not so long ago that many of these European cities actually look to NY to see how to deal with the epidemic.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
How does he get around the 50 post limit??????????
I think he was more or less expressing the same sentiment as I was. Hey I'm as guilty as anyone for off topic posts, but at least I try to put some thought behind them.
Hope you're well and getting ready for a great holiday season.
Peace,
ANDEE
Using all caps to make us think something major happened in Rome is misleading and then to tell us Fred was named patron saint is nonsensical. And you may want to take a moment to think that you could possible offend some people by bring the Pope into it. He is a world leader respected by many.
The only sense in which the Vatican could not be considered part of Rome is in the sense that it is theoretically some sort of remainder of the Papal States. In fact it could be viewed that the Vatican City IS Rome and the Italian part is merely a foreign suburb.
Anyway, he's Bishop of Rome, so isn't that good enough?
Please, if you want to have a personal post for a member of you minority club of people who subscribe to your brand of humor, at least have the decency to have an 'Attn: CC Local Fans-' prefix on the post, a j/k suffix to the thread title, or better yet, send it in an e-mail. Please don't raise the collective subtalk blood pressure nor encourage Adult Diaper futures to rise a few points for no reason, it's bad enough when they do so for semi-legitimate reasons.
CC Local's garbage post does not meet this criteria at all.
Save the BREAKING NEWS stuff when something really happens in the world.
Save the BREAKING NEWS stuff when something really happens in the world.
Them is the rules.
Fred ain't dead - he's still posting.
Dave's SubTalk Rule #1 : Dead people can't have handles. Allowing dead people to have handles and post would increase the post totals to infinate levels and cost Dave a bunch o' bucks to keep adding servers to handle the load.
Only Dave's trusted friends know about it.
Is there any trace left of the underpasses or the portals to the street? Is there any trace at all that the station existed? I know the station itself was constructed of wood so there's no trace at track level.
wayne
I once crawled through the White Pot Underjump, late March 1986. It was quite a feeling of almost dangerous freedom to emerge from it, leaving behind an abandoned right of way, and entering onto an active and extremely busy one, fast trains, live third rails and all.
In the late 80's I also frequently hiked across the Rockaway Line at about Dartmouth Street, as a shortcut to the Rego Park "crescents" from the Forest Hills street grid.
I will patiently await the answer of an "old timey" expert.
Staten Island Borough President
James P. Molinaro invites you
to learn more about the Study's findings at
PUBLIC PRESENTATION
Tuesday, December 9, 2003
The Jury Room
Staten Island Court House
126 Stuyvesant Place
Staten Island, NY 10301
(across from staten Island Borough Hall)
6pm - 8pm
North Shore Railroad Right-of-Way
Feasibility Study funded by
The Port Authority of NY & NJ
Prime Consultant - URS Corporation
--------------------------------
Sorry for the short notice - I kept forgetting to post the notice.
Whoa. Where do they come into this? They'd be the last people to be involved, IMO.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
I've been hearing that for years. Apparently, URS's findings indicate light rail is feasible for the ROW. Unfortunately, the Advance doesn't seem to have covered the meeting :(.
Can you summarize? :)
SI LIGHT RAIL WOULD EASE COMMUTE
Nearly 16,000 passengers a day could use a renovated Staten Island rail line by 2015, a Port Authority study said.
The study, financed by the PA of NY and NJ, found that a light rail system, similar to that used on the Hudson-Bergen line in New Jersey, would work best for the 5.1-mile north shore line, which has been defunct since 1953.
Molinaro [note -- article did not give his first name or title - he's the boro pres.] said no property would have to be bought or condemned for the project, which would reduce a 40-minute commute to the St. George ferry terminal to 13 or 14 minutes.
The Port Authority scheduled a public hearing on the issue last night.
If they are going to keep extending the HBLR, might as well make it one whole line over to the SI Ferry and Stadium.
Side thoughts, hope the MTA doesnt jump last minute and block it
This was in today's SI Advance - http://www.silive.com/news/advance/index.ssf?/base/news/107098207450460.xml
Mark
I say heavy rail for the North Shore line. Even though it would cost much more to operate, it would have the chance of expanding onto existing tracks with existing services, say, the M&E line to Summit?
That doesn't seem feasible. What good is a local stop-oriented rail transit line if a large percentage of its ROW is in woods? That's what highways are for: to ruin the woods. LRT is for medium density mixed residential/commercial/industrial areas. The North Shore line is basically all that, if a little faded at the edges. And nobody want to see a train on a parkway, sorry.
I see some merit in the heavy-rail aspect of the branch. The interstate travel opportunity is worthy of consideration. Of course, that begs the question: Exactly how many people start or end their NJ/Staten Island trips in NJ or Staten Island? I'd bet the majority are coming and going from different areas. So that's why a Staten Island-centric transit solution via LRT is a better match. In My Humble Opinion, of course.
Great idea, except you posted that an hour and 39 minutes after the meeting started :)
R-32.
Format C: will reformat your hard drive, completely obliterating everything that currently resides there.
And at least with cough*fdisk*cough, it takes a little work to manipulate it to totally screw yourself.
Not unless you assert that you really want it to.
WARNING, ALL DATA ON NON-REMOVABLE DISK
DRIVE C: WILL BE LOST!
Proceed with Format (Y/N)?
completely obliterating everything that currently resides there.
It is possible to recover the data from most formatted drives. PC World recently ran an article about sensitive files unearthed from used HDDs.
Or to put it in modern terms: PROFESSIONAL DRIVER ON CLOSED COURSE. DO NOT ATTEMPT. :)
The drive of the vehicle is PAID to do it!!!!
Closed course means that the production co. paid the local cops to close off the road used for filming.
It's there for the dumb-dumbs in the world, for which there is an unlimited supply.
In the "crashing on the rocks" scene the caption says something like "Lifeless Dummy on Closed Course. Do not attempt."
Since the cutting makes it look realistically like he's getting up from the crash, I'm glad they put that disclaimer.
BTW, since I don't remember the product, I guess it wasn't that good an ad.
Dumb-dumbs, otherwise known as the triumvirate of skylarkers (who sadly, are not buried next to each other with gravestones Larry, Moe, and Curly!)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Real Drive-thru PAs are unintelligible!
You mustn't have been around all that much, then. "Press ctrl-alt-del for access to secret files" was around way back in the days of BBSes.
Further, while I'm not about to test this for obvious reasons, I don't believe FORMAT C: will have all that much effect on anyone who isn't running DOS or Win 9X/ME. Win2K and XP won't allow the user to format the boot drive while the system is running.
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 express train. The next stop is, 86th street.
is 2 seconds longer than
This is a brooklyn bound 4 express train. The next stop is, 86th street.
R-32.
Which is worse, a mechanical failure that's essentially contained in the undercarriage/truck area of the car, or a structural failure that involves the car body itself?
When looking at the longevity of a particular car class, you have to look at factors other than performance as well. Take the R-32 vs the R-38 for example. What will the relatice cost be to maintain each car to 50 years of service? Perhaps the 32s have greater structural integrity and will require less significant investment per car to maintain them to age 50. Then there is the size of the fleet, itself. A fleet of 594 R-32s would be more desireable than a fleet of just 196 R-38s. As the fleets age and cars are de-commisioned, the smaller fleet decreases in flexibility and thus in its usefulness.
:-) Andrew
(2) When they installed them, did they do it at both ends or just one?
(3) Is there any way to identify them without looking for them on the trucks?
Robert
Can anyone tell me a decent route to get there by subway? I see on Mapquest that the closest major street to the place is Myrtle Avenue but I'm about 34 years too late to take the El. Broadway looks like its too far away so I don't know if the J/M/Z is an option.
My starting point is Fulton Street downtown. I have access to the 2/3/4/5/J/M/Z/A/C trains. Can anyone suggest a route?
Thanks.
That's what the B57 bus route, which runs along the entire length of Flushing Ave, is for. Exiting the station is the SW corner of Marcy Housing Projects, I wouldn't advise that.
Take R train to 36th st or Pacific then switch to M train into Manhattan and over Williamsburg Bridge to Seneca Ave. If the school is too far away from the M train stop, use the B38 bus. It runs along Seneca Ave.
I would use this method but instead of using the B38 bus, use a bicycle (www.Dahon.com) and ride along Seneca Avenue.
I wish NYCT was more vigil in their horrible G.O.'s in giving decent directions. Want a laugh? If you are at 14th st-Union Square this weekend (no L service in Manhattan and most of Brooklyn) they tell you to take the M14 bus to Delancey St (only the M14A not the M14C/D) when the 6, Q, R, and W trains can take you to Canal Stret for the J/M.
It's a good thing no one pays attention to GO posters, and doesn't read them. :)
Here's a capsule for other BusTalk readers. Basically, the M&Q was an independent trolley line operating from 59th and 2nd Avenue (the underground station) out Queen Boulevard to South Jamaica. A substantial portion operated on private right-of-way along Queens Boulevard, including right under the Flushing IRT. The IND Jamaica Line subway was built and on April 15, 1937, the M&Q cars were replaced by the M&Q Bus Company (this route was designated Q60-Queens Boulevard at that time, the same as today), which had been incorporated in 1935 in anticipation of the conversion. The M&Q Bus was absorbed by Green Bus Lines in 1947. Had the line received modern streetcar equipment before its conversion (the PCC had successfully operated for about a year in nearby Brooklyn), it might have lasted far longer. It was a viable trolley line, even with the subway underneath for about half its distance, and the poor, irregular bus service provided today is "second to none."
The following three routes were operated by the New York & Queens County Railway; today the replacement bus lines are served by Queens Surface. The Q65 was College Point / Flushing / Jamaica route, and today its route is almost exactly the same as in trolley days, except it doesn't use the two private rights-of-way it had in Jamaica. Q66-Northern Boulevard ran from the large carhouse at 51st Street and Northern Boulevard (parts of its beautiful brick facade have been thankfully preserved) down Northern, then along Main Street in Flushing, southeast on Kissena Boulevard and east on Sanford Avenue terminating at Parsons Boulevard. Its bus route today is again quite similar, but it ends in downtown Flushing. The Q67-Borden Avenue was known as the Calvary Line; it started at Borden Avenue and 2nd Street and terminated at 69th Street and Metropolitan Avenue. Most of its right-of-way is today the Long Island Expressway.
Steinway Lines was originally part of the NY&QC Railway, but was spun off after a 1922 bankruptcy. Most of the current ex-Steinway (now Queens Surface) routes were originally trolley lines. The last SL route was Steinway Street, converted to bus operation in 1939. On the very last day, brand new 650-series Third Avenue Railway System streetcars were used on Steinway Street. This was to train the motormen in their use for the Queensboro Bridge Railway; these new units operated for about a six-month period on the QBR while the older ex-Manhattan 3-Cent Railway 500-series cars were refurbished in the TARS shops. In 1949, the QBR purchased more modern cars from the New Bedford, Massachusetts system. These were used until QBR service ceased on April 4, 1957. It is interesting to note that some of the ex-New Bedford cars operated in those city's colors until the now familiar orange and cream paint scheme was applied to them. One of the QBR cars "survives," but in wretched condition, at the Trolley Museum of New York in Kingson, New York.
Noted traction author Vincent Seyfried published a very limited edition book on the NY&Q/SL in 1950. It is extremely difficult to find but pops up from time-to-time on eBay. As I write this, I'm currently revising this original book into a much larger, 200+ page edition, with hundreds of photos discovered in the ensuing years. I hope to release it in a year or two. Only small articles - never a full-size book - have been printed on the M&Q. However, Mr. Seyfried has completed a new manuscript on this line, and hopefully we'll be able to publish this also.
M&QT Co. had a maintenance facility on Queens Blvd., the present site of Aviation H.S.
BTW, you can order a Pizza in the old NY&QC "Waiting Room".
"... The M&Q Bus was absorbed by Green Bus Lines in 1947 ..."
I thought the Cooper group got that route earlier, but I didn't look up the facts, so maybe it's just my aging brain cells.
"... Steinway Lines was originally part of the NY&QC Railway, but was spun off after a 1922 bankruptcy ..."
It's interesting that Salzberg put the company back togather when he purchased them in the 30s.
"... Noted traction author Vincent Seyfried published a very limited edition book on the NY&Q/SL in 1950. It is extremely difficult to find ..."
The Hempstead Library has copies of all of them, you can reserve them, i.e. you ask to have them pulled out for you to look at, in the library only.
There has been a persistent rumor which keeps surfacing when talking to senior traction fans that persists: sometime in early 1937, a BQT PCC was tested on the NY&Q route from Jamaica to the underground Manhattan terminal, and when it returned it was tested on the M&Q again to the same Manhattan terminal. This might have been possible because of the physical tracks connections between the BQT, JCR and NY&Q at 160th and Jamaica. However, since the JCR had been dewired by 1936, the car would have had to have been pushed by a motor vehicle along the abandoned JCR tracks for a short distance to make the PCC face west. However, the trip over the M&Q was westbound only. In order to face the car correctly for its return trip to Brooklyn, it had to return back to Jamaica on the NY&Q. Someday, perhaps, Ill find photographic evidence of this purported journey.....
.....Just as I finally found evidence of brand new Third Avenue Railway System cars operating on the last day along Steinway Street. Mr. Seyfried, author of the NY&Q/SL book, stated this fact in his original book but never had personally seen a photo of these cars operating on Steinway. Thus it was always just an unverified rumor. However, about eight years ago, I inherited a negative collection which had two excellent photos of TARS car 654 on Steinway, one at the 19th Avenue terminal, the other crossing the Grand Central Parkway. When shown to Mr. Seyfried, I thought hed have a heart attack! It took almost 50 years to see photographic evidence of this event, so who knows what may show up in the future......
One additional physical aspect of NY&Q operation remains - the trolley wire troughs, and some ears, underneath the Long Island Rail Road along Main Street in Flushing. Theyre in remarkably good shape, basically protected from the weather. The troughs and ears appear to have been painted on a regular basis.
With Salzberg's intent to buy Brilliners (PCC look-a-likes), it would make perfect since for him to want to test a car like that on his line.
I have a question though, in refering to the Q67 Borden Avenue
Bus Route. Was it the Calvary Line or the Lutheran Cemetery Line?
BQT operated the Calvary Cemetery Line from the foot of Greenpoint
Avenue in Brooklyn to Calvary Cemetery, Long Island City till 1929(?).
:>) ~ Sparky
I am very fortunate to have an actual original roll sign from one of the NY&Q trolleys and there are quite a number of interesting destinations on it..... But I am more indebted to Mr. Vincent Seyfried, who has spent countless hours with me preparing this book and sharing his treasure chest of information about New York metropolitan area trolley and railroad operations. He's 85 and still very active. God bless him!
One last thing about the Manhattan and Queens. The southern end of the line ended at 109th Avenue and 157th Street in South Jamaica, just west of the Long Island Rail Road tracks. However, track had been laid on the other side of 109th Avenue for an extension. The line, however, was never extended past the LIRR. Mr. Seyfried had always heard of this track existing, and one day he rode his bicycle to that area (something surely no one would do today in this dangerous neighborhood) from his house in Hollis. He didn't see any tracks but brought a broom with him (109th Avenue was a dirt road) and swept the area until tracks were revealed and photographed. Now that's diehard research!
I've ridden behind it a number of times, and Jersey Mike has seen it sitting outside the engine house.
August, 1986
August, 1998
August, 1998
I've got Railroad Tycoon II and it's more fun to stand behind the controller of a 1902 Brill open car and feel the wind and hear the gear growl.
Sit on the right hand seatbox and pull the throttle. You've got the power and are master of the train.
All small children love trains, all you have to do is nurture it.
This one certainly does!
Winslow Jct 1985, man those Position Light masts were something. I still remember all the wasps nests in those things.
Anyway, you seem to have gotten off to a good start indoctrinating your grandkid into being a railfan. Too bad you weren't as successful with your normal kids.
Here's a tip...limit the supply of picture books at your house to Railroad picture books. He'll have no choice but you get interested.
Damn right - unless I get on at a terminus, I can never get any of the 4 RFW seats on the DLR.
August, 1997
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess the Pine Creek Railroad couldn't use a two-footer.
IIRC it was brought to the fairgrounds on a trailer. It had been fired up before leaving home, so the boiler was hot, and the level of water had not been checked properly. When it was brought down off the trailer and then continued down a slope the crown sheet was exposed, triggering the explosion.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
CG
R-32.
Mark
Currently, based on my transit photo library, the vast majority of the shots will be of DC Metro, being the system I've photographed the most. That will be highly organized by topic. I will also be showing off pictures of "The T" in Pittsburgh, and also Harrisonburg Transit.
Believe it or not, I've never ridden the granddaddy of all transit systems, the New York Subway, though I do have a few New York pictures that my sister and mother took on two recent trips up there.
So in announcing this, I'm interested to know... what do you want to see in this site? Location-wise, I'm based out of Stuarts Draft, Virginia, which is marked on this map. To give you an idea of driving time, DC is accessible from I-81 to I-66, and approximately two and a half hours away. So by all means, let me know if there are any transit systems that you really want to see, rail or bus.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
For reference, I am located west of Charlottesville, near the "Waynesboro" dot, and DC is 2.5 hours away by car.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Ben F. Schumin :-)
I'll remember your birthday if you remember my 70th in 2052.
OK, maybe even if you don't.
I'm not sure how sharp my memory will be when I'm 116!
I'd like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukah, Kwazy Kwanzaa, a tip-top Tet, and a solemn and dignified Ramadan.
You forgot Festive Winter Solstice.
--Mark
They forgot my favorite holiday, Ground Hog Day.
Some other recent special days :
December 6th (1969): Altamont
December 7th (1941) : Pearl Harbor
December 8th : Feast of the Immaculate Conception
(1943) Jim Morrison's birthday
(1980) John Lennon's death day (December 9th in UK)
(Number nine, number nine, number nine ...)
Anyone know Beethoven's birthday ? Around the 12th or 13th of December ?
Yes, it is true. I was visitin a convent in Bismarck last year at this time, and it was part of their readings at morning prayer.
Elias
Later it was decide that the ancient calendars had shfted out of joint somewhat, and the solestes was moved up to the 21st.
You can see the relationship beteen the birth of light and the victory of the sun, and the birth of the son and the victory of light over darkness.
Many Christian feasts were designed to co-opt pagan feasts.
Elias
"Many Christian feasts were designed to co-opt pagan feasts."
In the case of Christmas, I think the pagan feast has mostly co-opted the Christian feast.
No it's not, it is an act of not having any faith.
Faith is belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. Belief is in a god or gods is faith.
By your logic, it is also faith that causes me to believe the world is round.
Religion, religious belief and faith have been the hallmark of the human race since the beginning of recorded time. That events and time can even be recorded is yet another hallmark of humanity. It is unseemly to me that someone should distain the greetings of grace that one offers to another. Not everybody is of the same faith, yet all hold to a faith. Even those who would distain the existence of God nonetheless have gods of their own: be it money, power, or sex.
The human brain is one of the most fascinating creations on this planet, yet only half of it is used for what we call higher functions. The other part enamors itself with rhythm, music, art and poetry. It is the seat of emotions and yes, probably of true religion (as opposed to the cerebral, legalistic kind found in the intellectual part of the brain, which according to me is not really religion at all.)
This is why certain sights, sounds and emotions evoke such powerful feelings in individuals. To keep on topic, (of course) this is exactly the reason why the Redbirds evoke such powerful feelings in the hearts of railfans. It is the associations with the deep inner self that drives these emotions. Even more so for the Arnines these had an aroma and a song all of their own, and for those of us old enough to remember them, they access an insight to the soul second only to that of the souls own creator.
In the United States, the first amendment to the constitution states that government will not make any laws respective to religion, and that all shall enjoy freedom in their religious beliefs. It does not say anything about freedom from religion, which is as I have posited, probably not possible anyway. The highly vaunted notion of Separation of Church and State is NOT part of the US constitution: it is a campaign slogan first used by Thomas Jefferson, and has no more force than any such campaign slogan used by Bill Clinton or George Bush. And it has nothing to do with a tree or a candle stick on government property.
But I will tell you what Separation of Church and State is all about, since you apparently need instruction on this issue. When our constitution was written, the Old World European model was still seared on our collective minds and hearts, a corrupt system that stifled expression, as it was meant to do. It was a time when Church and State were intertwined to the determent of both: Kings insisted on appointing Bishops and Abbots, and Kings themselves were crowned by the Pope. Church courts vied with Royal courts for jurisdiction. It was a time when the king could dictate to the people what church to follow. It was a time when the church could hold inquisitions and deliver corporal punishments.
Faith, and religion are universal among humankind, and there is a certain unity in this that transcends the diversity of the various beliefs. To my way of thinking, it is this faith (whatever faith that may be) that ennobles the soul and makes a person human, instead of say cat or dog, or perhaps a monkey. It does not matter that you are Christian, and another is Jewish or Islamic. It does not matter if one is Buddhist or Hindu, what matters it that a person is ennobled and enervated by the spirit of his god. That each person recognizes the living godhead in the life of another.
When a good wish is offered in the name of faith, of religion, all that is needed is a thank you. And if this does not commend itself to you, then no comment at all is needed. No harm is meant to you by wishing someone else a happy Hanukkah. It is enough that it means something to the person who offered the greeting, and to the person who received it. According to me, the Happy Holidays has become a sterile meaningless Wal*Mart fest that degrades the true faith of everybody.
And so I offer you the Feast of St. Redbird, May your home signals always be clear, May your doors always close, and May your train always bring you safely to the terminal on time.
Elias
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Agreed, especially given that your holiday around this time of year and my holiday around this time of year have very different meanings.
Many thanks.
Hainault
Inquiring minds want to know!
Sorry, couldnt resist!
I always was amused by Theydon Bois (pronounced boys) since it was clearly a corruption of the French (pronounced bwas). I had had the same discussion about pronunciation over reservoir, with my grandmother and my father.
I pronounce Chesham with the h, as I first encountered the name at Kings College London, where The Chesham (formerly an hotel), on Surrey Street, housed the Student Union, before the MacAdam building was constructed.
PS- The porters at Mary-le- bone used to say "Kings Crss for Scotland : Marry-bun for Sudbury and Harrow Road !" I dont think so: I would bet money on arrow Road!
No-one can agree on how Marylebone is pronounced. It increasingly seems to be "Marleybone" these days.
"The train now standing at the far end of platform 4 is the 2210 to Birmingham Snow Hill; calling at Denham, Denham Golf Club, Gerrard's Cross, Seer Green & Jordans, Beaconsfield, High Wycombe, Princes Risbrough, Haddenham & Thame Parkway, Bicester North, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Warwick, Warwick Parkway, Dorridge, Solihull, and Birmingham Snow Hill, arriving Birmingham Snow Hill at 0034."
But would that be a fast Amersham? That's the question!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.5 Now Available!
Probably, just to confuse everyone, it's rush hour and suddenly he's Hainault via Woodford, running late and actually terminating at Grange Hill, a fact announced just after Leytonstone.
Just reading this thread reminded me that I had meant to take my late father on the 6 train around the loop because he had never seen it despite living in NYC for years upon end (passed away this year)…Well, guess I cannot fret about lost opportunities. :-(
Big diff b/w City Hall and the Franklin shuttle.
I like to be sitting in the fourth car from the front, but if you want, take everyone else's advice and sit in the last car. For the best view, though, open up the doors between cars and peek out through there. The lights from the R-142A's which run on the (6) are so bright, that it's hard to see out into the mostly darkened station. So peeking out between cars is your best bet.
Normally, nobody will bother you if you try to ride the loop. But if a TA employee asks you to get off, or asks you what you're doing, just be nice and tell them that you're from out of town, and would like to ride the loop and see the City Hall station. Chances are they'll let you stay on. If you're REALLY afraid of getting in trouble, you can ask the conductor before you get to Brooklyn Bridge if he'll let you stay on and ride the loop. From what Subtalkers have posted here, it seems most of the time the C/R will be nice and let you stay on.
Spotted him today at around 3:50 PM.
Is this anyone here from SubTalk or BusTalk or possibly from somewhere else?
If train X leaves Brighton Beach at 7 o'clock and idiot Y leaps onto track at Kings Highway at 7:05 how late will the unlucky commuters be to get to work?
A)5 minutes
B)10 minutes
C)15 minutes
D)you're still on time, by NYCT's standards for lateness
E)an hour, half of which was spent by the crew trying to raise the tower to report the 12-9
Koi
If the story began at Newkirk, then the question would make sense.
Koi
I told you not to worry about tickets; I'll vouch for your character.
(He's a character).
Bob
Chuck Greene
Speaking of "Derailed", what causes more derailments?:
A) Poor track?
B) Defective Rolling Stock?
C) Operator error?
D) Tower Error?
E) Other?
AEM7
My understanding is that you get called by your number. However, would all people on the promo list necesarily get a higher number than those on the OC? I know that you get extra points for previously working at the MTA, and also if you are a veteran. But what if lots of promo people just barely passed it, with a raw score of 80-83? Even with the additional points, can they surpass my raw score of 97 and also compete with the fact that I filed on the very first day?
Sorry if some feel like I am beating this topic to death, but I really am curious about 'loopholes' that may get me called earlier than 2-3 years from now. -Nick
They got your money, it was a good dry run for the c/r test so deal with it.
Promotional Test are weighted towards the agency your work for. You can sit on a promo list if your agency isn't calling. This is a mute fact since the title we are talking about here is for a single agency unlike say the title of Computer Specialists, Operations.
Did they become provisional even though they were forced into the titles?
My partner a few nights ago was a bus maintainers helper for 10+ years, they decided to do away with his and some other jobs and sent them to RTO as a c/r. After a year or so they realized they needed them all back but he stayed and went to T/O. I assume they at least started him at full pay.
I was just curious about what happens in those cases or like provisonal in the TA. Like if a c/r takes a provisional to t/o does he keep his c/r seniorty if he stays proviosnal more than a year? For a promotional after one year you lose your seniority rights.
You had the option so that is the proper way, they were told if you want to have a job on Monday report to school car. I thought being forced to move might catch you a break.
Mark
Regards,
Jimmy
I don't think the R26 or R28 had drop-sash storm door windows (but their side windows were once drop-sash). Should have spent more time on the Mainline.
But all the others did not.
If you were on Train Dude's friend list, he would have e-mailed the shot to you.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Even if you want to run them, you can still make it work. A 2-track subway line can be built on a shelf no more than 8" wide. There are also track systems that can be suspended from ceilings. Where there's a will (& some $$$$) there's a way.
#3 West End Jeff
I'll bet the re-scheduled Red Bird trip won't be the last AND R-17 6688 will be treating many railfans for years & years to come AND R-16 6398 is alive & well too !
#3 West End Jeff
Here's hoping that the economy turns around, that the MOD trips and other fan trips continue PAST 2004 and all of the historical classics get to run every now and then just to keep them from rusting up and rotting away. Sure there's wear and tear, but much like classic cars, sitting and rotting without running seems to be even more damaging to them in the end run than letting them out to "stretch their legs" every now and then ...
#3 West End Jeff
--Mark
--Mark
Dave
Yes they are but every model railroader has to limiting factors:
Space
Cash
wayne
Any thoughts?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
JMU is James Madison University, in Harrisonburg, Virginia.
Sorry... meant to define those two. Still, we're talking about New York cars getting taken through VIRGINIA here.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Bill "Newkirk"
R-32.
1) the carrier who offers the cheaper rate, or
2) for oversize loads, clearance become an issue.
3) they would have had to go north to Albany before moving south or west.
4) a railway such as NS might offer a low price to get the business.
5) Mississippi river crossings rule plates sizes, maybe a mor southerly crossing was better for them.
Elias
Did Curtis and Kuby stage the accident to boost ratings?
...her sport utility vehicle was hit and rolled over on the William Floyd Parkway.
A witness who did not give his name told Suffolk County police that Picker was stopped by the side of the road when her car was hit from behind.
Oh that's just friggin great, now you don't even need to be hit from the side or throw the steering wheel hard over to roll one of these suckers. It'd be interesting to see an accident report, to learn the speed of the Chevy that hit her, and to learn the layout of the intersection where the accident happened, since I know nothing about the accident outside of those two italicized statements at the top. I do find it frightening that a SUV can be struck from the rear and roll about an axis parallel with the direction of the impact, that doesn't seem like something that should be happening in an accident.
Children
Sound systems
Navigation systems
Putting on makeup while driving
Eating
Drinking
Talking to passengers
Passengers in general
etc.
You get my point. It's how you do it, not the prima fascie act itself, that defines whether or not it is a hazard. (DUI is in a special category by itself for good reason, but cell phones, and most of the other behavior I've listed above, shouldn't be.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How about reading the newspaper? Yep, I've seen people doing that while driving. Unbelieveable.
An especially obnoxious thing about cell phone users (maybe not in your neck of the woods, OK) is that, even making a sharp turn or having a near miss with another driver, they will not put the damned thing down.
And as a pedestrian? Just a few of the things I have personally observed is a driver zooming across a side walk and practically creaming me and my dogs. She never noticed I was there until I screamed at her and got a "who, me?" look. Then there was one (not in an SUV) who made a left turn and almost hit a woman with a baby carriage, but my favorite was a dude who was weaving and cut a cop car so close the cop jammed on his brakes. That one, at least, had reason to regret using the cell phone.
Yes, I have a cell phone. Yes, I keep it in my car. But if I have to talk on it, I pull over.
Something about phones -- the take precedence over everything and everyone. I worry that if my wife is on the phone while cooking, she'll burn the house down and kill the kids -- and still not stop gabbing. And I hate waiting my turn to talk the boss, starting to go over an issue, and have them answer a call. I'm better off just calling from a few feet away and interrupting someone else!
In any event, what I really resent about the SUVs is that they are designed to kill drivers (and passengers) of less expensive cars in low speed crashs at intersections where it is hard to see, like every one in Brooklyn. The bumper comes through the window. One of my daughters friends lost her mother to just such a collision. Her father, since remarried, drives an SUV now, he says to keep his family from being destroyed again. There is a higher profit margin to preserve your life, and you have to agree to wreck the environment besides.
There are SUV's and there are SUV's. Certainly you have some huge hulking models, such as Suburbans and most notably Hummers, but many others are considerably smaller and more car-like. Note that the one involved in the incident that started this thread, a Toyota RAV4, is one of the smallest models, lighter than many ordinary midsize cars.
NO YAPPING ON PHONES WHILST DRIVING! It's not like eating in the car or talking to someone in the car or having children in the car. It's a moron prattling on his walkie-talkie. (I know this is, uh, sexist, but when I see a guy on one anytime, but especially driving, I think "Geezus, yappin' like a woman! Can't shut his trap for the short time he's in transit.) To hell with duck season and wabbit season; I want to see drivers yapping on cell phones season. I have to laugh at their antics since the only other alternative is to give `em a Brooklyn halloo with a baseball bat. The ever-luvin' friggin' NERVE of these tiny brained bastards to endanger my life because they wanted to gossip while driving on the BQE!! Bunch of egotistical semi-literates with a childish fascination for blinking and beeping boxes. Most of `em would run down their own children to beat a light. And you just KNOW they're thinking to themselves "Gee, now I look COOL! Hey, I look like I'm in the movies n' shit! Oh, pweeze, notice me!! Look at me!"
And society is just filled with these jerk offs. It really is pathetic.
Amen.
And who might she have hit while making her important theory on the nature of the Michael Jackson case heard to the greater NY vicinity?
I've yet to see any real evidence that cell phone use contributes to dangerous driving. Anecdotes, yes, but it's hard to place much faith in them.
It's also telling that New York is AFAIK the only state with a ban on hand-held cell phones.
Many municipalities in New Jersey are jumping on the bandwagon, though, mainly as a revenue source (steeper fines for cell phone use than for speeding).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Fact 1. The woman in the SUV (Rav-4) pulled over to make a cell phone call.
Fact 2. The person who hit her was driving a 1999 Chevy sedan.
Fact 3. The person driving the Chevy was reading while driving.
Now Q-Ball, please explain to me how this makes SUVs unsafe. If you can successfully do this I will refrain from insulting you and your mindless drivel for 3 months. Come on John, explain this to me.
A 1998 RAV4 2WD gets 24 mpg city/29 highway, better than a V6 Camry from the same year.
...and UGLY, don't forget ugly.
Peace,
ANDEE
#3 West End Jeff
Just a few thoughts.
Mark
p.s.--this whole scenario is on the assumption that the ENTIRE Metro area got nailed by heavy snowfall---not just a part of the region.
Assuming it'll take about 8 inches for metro to go into that plan, the government would probably shut down, and the shopping malls at P.City would probably be closed, so passengers wouldn't have any where to go anyways.
Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority
600 Fifth Street, NW
Washington, DC 20001
I go back to the "hurricane isabelle", if everything is going to be closed (shopping malls, museums, the government) whats the point in continuing to run the trains when no one is gonna ride, heck where are you gonna go.
I'm guessing that part of the answer lies with the railroad rivalries of the day. Since the Pennsylvania RR owned the LIRR at the time, it only had access to its terminal in Manhattan, Penn Station. It had no access rights to Grand Central, which was then operated by the New York Central RR (or something like that).
If that is so, did the Pennsy even try to get access to Grand Central, such as by joint agreement with the NY Central, a la the joint BMT-IRT service on the Astoria and Corona lines?
NY Central was in a very fierce rivalry with the Pennsy when it came to services heading west. There was no way they were going to allow the competition to have a foothold in their terminal or access to their passengers.
Correct. In addition, the East Side wasn't a big employment draw in those days.
Just getting the Hudson, NY Central Harlem, and New Haven RRs into Grand Central was tough enough - you couldn't expect the PRR to get acces to GCT when their Hell Gate bridge was allowing them to cut into the New Haven's territory in Westchester and points north.
Secondly, commuter operations were a minor consideration for most railroads. The PRR/LIRR wasn't very concerned with providing a second nearby destination for commuters, especially if it would encourage them to take the competition for their long distance travel.
1) GCT did not exist.
2) the neighborhood was inhabited by COWS! MOO!
Elias
At the time the area was occupied by rail yards and various industrial concerns, like the original Ruppert brewery (The House that built the House that Ruth Built).
Actually, only a little over 50 years ago there were cows not far to the east of Grand Central. Not that they were particularly happy about being in the area. What is now the site of the United Nations was occupied by several slaughterhouses.
Today we still have cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute half-moons at Penn Station, but they're not quite the same thing.
AEM7
Heh -- so the Turpike Authority will retain a raison d'etre when the current Turnpike Authority bonds are finally paid off.
The Mass Turnpike Authority issued bonds back in the '50s to build the road; toll collection revenues were used to pay off the interest and principal. The Authority was legally required to remove the tolls from the road after the bonds were retired, sometime in the '80s or '90s. But -- suprise! suprise! -- the folks running the agency found some construction projects requiring new bonds at about the time that the old ones were retiring. New bonds meant that the tolls had to stay in place, and the whole bureaucracy couldn't be disbanded or merged into the Mass Highway Department. Talk about "lifetime employment"!
There is an archived USENET posting about this
here.
http://www.coloradomonorail.com/home.html
: )
The NE corridor was already upgraded north of New Haven the part this monorail route would bypass...any train via the shoreline or inland route still has to use Metro-North's tracks south of New Haven...the crappiest part of the trip. So this would involve longer travel times, two carriers, two round trip tickets.....nah, not gunna happen!
-- Ed Sachs
The BMT was more apt to have open staircases or actual station houses or headhouses.
The IND almost (emphasize almost) always had open staircases, the same or not much different from what they have now.
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
http://www.railfanwindow.com
This Is What I Live For...
5788 - 5789 - 5787 - 5786
Kudos to the car wash at Jamaica Yard. =)
-- Ed Sachs
The "A" Train
BTW, what's KO?
Even if he had the timetable for the entire Ronkonkoma branch, if the train was an express and didn't stop at Mineola, he'd have no way of knowing anything but the length and direction of the train as it would not be indicated with a time at the Mineola Station. The train could have just as easily been out of Huntington, Hicksville or Farmingdale. I'm not disputing that the train may have been from Ronkonkoma. I just wanted to know how the original poster knew it. It would be alot easire if he would respond rather than us debating speculations.
As for Ronkonkoma trains, in general, during peak hours, few if any westbound trains stop at Mineola. Now, the original poster did say it was an express (meaning it did not stop there). That does not in any way imply that it was or wasn't a train out of Ronkonkoma.
BTW: I use the Ronkonkoma branch almost on a daily basis. M-7s are very sparse at best.
Here's what one can glean from looking at the schedules:
The last westbound Ronkonkoma train that skips Mineola runs through Mineola at about 8:13 AM. Most Ronkonkoma trains prior to then also skip Mineola. From 8:18 AM until about 5:00, all westbound Ronkonkoma trains stop at Mineola.
The last westbound Huntington train that skips Mineola runs through Mineola at about 8:02 AM. Prior to that time about half the westbound Huntington electrics stop at Mineola. From 8:04 AM until about 5:00, all westbound Huntington trains stop at Mineola.
So we can conclusively say that we can't draw any conclusions from looking at the schedule.
CG
On a side note, I haven't noticed any 8 car M-7's either. Just 6 and 10. I'm not on the LIRR as much as I used to be, but I've seen enough 6's and 10's that the lack of 8's is kind of odd.
CG
Oh yes, I think they chopped the acceleration down a bit, they seem a bit slower now. Could be operator technique too, though.
1050 HP per car, for 12 cars gives about 12,500 amps at 750V, minus HEP/Aux loads, at 100% efficiency (not real life). That's within the capacity of the LIRR's power system. It's questionable if they actually reach that level of HP.
The M-1, per Budd's book maxes at 2.0mph/s acceleration, the M-7's do too, per BBD's specs. Scalling for weight, this would sugesst roughly 750HP/car, or about 9000 amps, again assuming no HEP + no losses.
BTW, the main fuse on the M-1s is 1000 amp (Per GE's book on the M-1A). I'm pretty sure the M-7s have high speed breakers, not fuses (which are probbably pretty much useless anyway, since fast interrupting of faults is needed, not overload protection, which is probbably handled by the inverter itself).
Giving the car's maximum exposure via short trains makes sense. I'm guessing the M-7's high HP is desire to pull dead cars with less performance hit - a 6 or 8 car train of M-1s with no dead cars is quite a punchy train....
Chuck
Mark
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Should have bought it before trip #1
I figure with the money I've spent to develop film from the 7 trips I've attended so far (plus the one trip we made to Branford), I've pretty much spent about 75% of what this camera cost.
I do need a new memory card. 16MEG only holds about 33 shots at 1MEG resolution.
I use a Sony with a CD-RW drive in it. One disc holds 600+ photos, (newr discs will hold 900+ photos at VGA resolution.
Depending on what you will be doing with your photos there is no need to use better than VGA resolution, since your VGA monitor or internet connections cannot handle more. You only need the higher quality if you are going to print (photo lab or offset press) high quality.
But play around with the settings and see what suits your needs. Do not be afraid to try the lower res settings to see what they will do for you.
Happy Photography... And if you post any good shots, I'll be sure to swipe them for my screen saver program.
: ) Elias
This Is What I Live For...
Then reduce it to the size you need.
These may not be the best examples, but are the first two photos I grabbed for an example.
See this photo - the original:
Playing with it can give you this:
Or this:
Those are the same photos. You can only do things like that if you take the photos on the higher mp. Otherwise cropping will distort the image.
The same here with this original:
Playing with it can give you some finer details:
Or even this:
Again, those are the same photos. They do get a bit distorted even when cropping from the full 4mp originsl, but it's not even possible if you use lesser resolution.
I use the higher rez's sometimes to do a sort of "digital zoom."
You can leave the rez higher, and crop to 800x600 from there, instead of making the photo's total size 50%.
Once again, it's all about flexibility.
Here's another example. This is from Kosciuszko looking to Myrtle Broadway. When you crop the photo you can even see the M pulling in, which you can't even tell in the original version of the same photo. There's all kinds of things happening in the distance, and you'd never know it from the original uncropped photo. Again, these are all the same photo:
Original 4mp photo:
The last photo looks like a totally different photo! You couldn't do that with 1mp photos!
With most of my photos, the first thing I do is usually "shrink" the resolution, so I can upload them. However, I do copy all of the original sized photos to disk before playing with them. Those are your "negatives". If anything ever goes wrong, you can always fall back on them. (I learned that the hard way when my computer crashed a few months ago. I lost a lot of photos, but thankfully most were copied to disk).
I have almost 6 gigs of photos. I have an external backup firewire drive, I keep a backup copy there.
I also bought a new comp, for photo editing, and keep all my data on the old comp as well, just in case the new one decides to get funny.
Basically, I have 2 backups!
I always shoot at the highest setting. It gives you more flexibility in terms of cropping and editing. Even if the average size of the photos on my site are 800x600, I don't want to shoot my pictures in that mode. I'd rather edit them down to that size.
Chuck Greene
Chuck
Thanks.
Mental telepathy?
The BP ads saying the world needs less carbon are particularly irksome to me.
I once vandalized an illegal sticker atop an MVM ad in a subway car.* It posed a question about jobs lost by the machine, and I bluntly answered the question: YES!
*What do you call vandalizing vandalism? Byzantizing? Because it was the Emperor Justinian's armies that expelled the Vandals from Rome.
Here to view my photos at RailPictures.Net!
Frank Hicks
Your great pictures now have comments and explanations!
John
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Peter
Just east of Fresh Pond "station" you will pass under the M line, a small trestle, and then under a large truss bridge bearing the tracks of the Connecting Line above you.
This is probably the most interesting stretch of the line, right by the M line:
Ask them if they'll let you can pop in on Santa in the yard. He'll be in an old P72 xLIRR Coach now painted NY & Atl green.
I walked through the eastern half of Forest Park after a snowstorm, the first Saturday of December 2002. It was beautiful, but the hour (dusk) and the snow prevented me from taking my hiking "shortcut" through the park to Union Turnpike and Continental Avenue. I did this on my next visit (Saturday June 28 2003) but had to climb on all fours backwards down a brick-paved drainage swale from the Montauk Branch tracks to do so. A repaired fence now seals off that little
park that used to be adjacent to the north side of the tracks.
Richmond Hill will be easy to spot, it has a wooden island platform I believe. Also, see if you can spot out the old Rockaway line ROW
ENJOY!!!
Richmond Hill (It is concrete by the way)
Glendale
Fresh Pond
Haberman
Penny Bridge
Too bad Glendale "station" has lost its bucolic charm. "Bubolic" ?
Interesting typo : it's like "bucolic" is turning into the "Bubonic"
plague !
Here are some other interesting links from SubTalk Past on the subject:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=434907
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=434868
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=559085
(I do see two tall buildings in the background, though.)
Oh no!!! I didn't even notice that! You just gave me the chills!
Amazing how many places you were had them in the background, and we used to just take them for granted (and all the people who worked there).
BTW Ron, David was joking about the "station".
The LIC line intermediate stations were quite primitive.
Where in Huntington are you going to?
Dan
I think there is only one train that uses the Upper Montauk. All the other LIC trains use the Main Line.
Robert
Bad week for AM rush hour on QB. I hope it doesn't get worse.
Robert
But still, a train laying down s/b in the 60 St tube shouldn't
screw up the n/b service like it did! The problem is it
requires people who know the system well, can form a big-picture
view in their head, and who aren't afraid to act quickly.
As soon as that train went BIE, you start turning Astoria
service back at that diamond crossover on the ramp s/o QBP.
You send your s/b R service via 63 St and since that forces
them to enter 57/7 on A3 track, you start turning Qs n/o times sq.
N and W trains could be turned back at Chambers or in
Brooklyn, etc. But instead, what generally happens is they'll
let everyone sit and do nothing until the entire railroad
grinds to a halt, then they'll start scurrying to turn trains,
drop intervals, etc., but the damage is done.
TD TD is one of those that know her stuff but they have her in 'Siberia'. Not only would she not hesitate to turn trains to keep the flow she would know enough to know which crews to turn also.
Robert
Robert
The price is $240.00, $262.00 with tax. Sorry no MTA employee discounts.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy: Like you I already have one MTA car and one CDOT Shoreliner from Walther's. I don't know exactly what the radius is but it seems to be the standard one where six curved track make half a circle. I could be wrong though.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy: What can you tell me about this R-17 set and about Trainworld itself. I've been planning a trip to the Brooklyn Store and would like some idea how much stock that they have. I am specifically looking for New York Central stock in HO.
Thanks, Larry, RedbirdR33
Regards,
Jimmy
Jimmy: Thanks for the info. I'm well acquaited with the Red Caboose.
I plan to head out to Trainworld tomorrow night after work. Thanks again
Larry, RedbirdR33
Also, the R-17s are being released in the Redbird paint scheme, due July 2004.
--Mark
Koi
Koi
The article starts: "Mary Pinkett showed up. Sometimes late, but in the battle to save a subway line a few years ago, she was always there." The city's first female black Council member, she attended meeting after meeting after news conference after hearing when the MTA threatened to shut down the line. She spoke eloquently about how the line merited renovation. One news conference was held in 90-degree weather one July morning at the Botanic Garden station. Reporters and residents sought the shade until she arrived. When she did, she insisted that Helmuth Lesold, another veteran shuttle booster, be lifted in his wheelchair to the subway's mezzanine. "She made sure he was taken down into the subway station so that he could be a full participant," said Connie Lesold, a retired social worker. [Presumably Connie is related to Helmuth -- AM New York doesn't say.] "I really think she was the one elected official who stayed on it from beginning to end," said Lesold, who also worked to save the shuttle.
The Times had her obituary last week, but didn't mention the shuttle.
The Line should read....Matus' not Matus's.
Presumably the plan is looking down on the 140-foot deep ESA mega-terminal and north is to the right; then the brown on the lower left must be the subway. Why does ESA go round a loop? How many tracks go round the loop? How do you get from the ESA to the subway? Do the other drawings show the ESA at street level? Where are we in relation to the plan view?
That explains the rail part of things, but do you know what the three illustrations show, and at what level they are? I can see at least one escalator going down, and a few stairways. Also do you know what the green areas are on the map?
Face it, we live in NY, rather the USA. We're not protected from crime as well as whatever gov't say. As for your wallet, sorry it happened, but you should be keeping a sharper eye for these things. Whenever I'm near someone I always keep my hand on my pocket, or if I'm on the subway, I hold the bar with my left hand and put my right hand in my pocket. Oh boy...I better fear Long Island more than NYC now...yeah right.
Oh, BTW, sorry to hear you were robbed.
What does "could of" mean? Do you mean "could have"?
I gotta admit, it's curious. You didn't feel it sliding out of your pocket? Was there anyone that close to you during this time sequence? It could have been someone who bumped into you, or brushed passed you.
Don't discount the losing it possibility either. It could have dropped, or been nudged out of your pocket and fallen to the street. Sure, most people, if they noticed it falling would yell at you about it, tell you that it happened. Maybe not on a crowded train, although it still could happen there too; honest folks ride the trains too, but in a brightly lit supermarket I believe anyone would inform you of what fell out of your pocket.
Thing is, though, if nobody actually witnessed it, right after you left the location and before you realized your wallet was missing, it would just be lying there on the floor, un-claimed. It's bound to be picked up. So okay, let's say that's what happened. Don't lose all hope yet; maybe the guy took any cash and dropped it into the nearest mailbox. Or they took it home and are looking up your name to call you about it.
I think there have been tests done on random passersby and the majority of wallet finders called an identifying number placed in the wallet in case it was lost. A minority just grabbed it and kept it.
Nope. I think you dropped it. Not trying to be callous. Either it'll be mailed to you, someone will call you, or it's gone. Finis. That bit about "security footage"...hey, maybe the guy or girl who picked it up needed it more than you did. When I lose stuff that's exactly how I feel about. And I wish them well with it. We both know it's just b.s. papers and whatnot. A pain but no great loss.
So he may have lost the wallet after all, scum bucket. Now maybe you should just eat shit and die.
My winter coat is a long one that goes just below my waist, which makes the picks job even harder.
The only thing in the right back pocket is my handkerchef. Doubt a pick wants that.
If your coat is short,(or it's warm weather) keep your hand in the wallet pocket until you are well away from the store and not in an obsured area.
Sounds like some big talk for someone who don't have the balls to give his e-mail address. Any time you feel hoppy froggy feel free to jump.
It's not my intent to be the advocate for any other subtalkers but at least one other subtalker said,
"You're just guessing that you were robbed. You could of just lost it. Right?"
And you accused that person of being "evil". I can understand that you were upset yesterday but with your constant criticism of others who have more than you, with your constant criticism of the people you live around, maybe the "evil" is within you. I didn't wake up in a preachy mood today but you do need to change your outlook, young man or the next 27 years and maybe the 27 after that will be no better than the first.
Another thing to seriously consider. Before you go half-cocked again -- ranting and raving about neighborhoods going to the dogs -- take a few deep breaths and count to ten. I'm sure you'll feel alot better and we could then all be saved another of your fear-stricken, paranoid postings...
Give it some thought -- won't you?
Keep rubberbands wrapped around your wallet. It makes it more difficult to pluck it from your pocket.
Did you ask the person at the register if you had left your wallet there.
If they would have seen it, they would have put it someplace safe.
Elias
Stuff napkins in your pocket above the wallet. At least the napkins are useful if you need to blow your nose.
And the potential robber can catch the flu from you when trying to steal your wallet.
But hey, shit happens, right? I have nothing but bad news and tips for you. My mom's wallet was stolen at King Kullen here in PW once, they never found it. See if the credit card company can trace any charges to it, unless you canceled before they could use it for anything.
Were you keeping it in you back pocket? If so, that is always the biggest mistake to make. Always keep it in ur side pocket. Hell, I keep my money and metro card in my jackets chest pocket.
I felt bad for losing my wallet (lost a metrocard, some cash, student ID, health insurance card) but I just learned that life goes on. I'm now using a newer wallet (originally my father's but he never used it) that isn't as good as the one I used to have (this one doesn't have an adequate place to hold change) but it's better than nothing.
Actually I am just making a obligatory referance there, I don't carry a wallet for exactly the reasons you stated.
Do you have any contacts at your old address? On the off chance you did just lose it (or if a thief just took the cash and tossed the wallet aside) there may be someone looking to return it to you.
CG
PS. Sorry to hear about the wallet. No matter how it happened, it still sucks.
CG
Someone found it, searched through my phone book in order to find out how to contact me or someone I know, and I got it back the same day!
I myself was VERY lucky, TWICE! Back in 1987, I was grabbed and held around my chest while he was searching my coat. In two seconds I pulled out my box cutter and made a direct hit on both eyes on the mugger. He dropped me so fast I had no time too look back at the sharp razor blinding him for good. The second time a few years later I was followed and got stuck at a parking lot with a career criminal. For 5 long, hard minutes I tried to outwit him, even tried to aim at his face with another razor. Two people came up to him (who quickly saw him from an earlier robbery) and gave chase. He was arrested a week later and was involved in a string of robberies in the Flatbush area.
Stop whining and take action. Get a copy of the Village Voice and call one of the Asian massage joints that run ads in the back pages all the time. You won't feel so pressured afterwards and will be in a better position to get it on with a chik for free - as dogs can smell fear, chix can sense desperation. Even though you're living on the taxpayer's dole, as a taxpayer I would not object at all if you use some of your government benefits for this purpose. Consider it a form of horizontal psychotherapy.
Yes, but it works in reverse for men. Recall that George became highly intelligent when he couldn't have sex. I hate to inform you of this, John, but you may be intellectually capped out.
CG
As for your other problem, Peter is right, woman like self-confidence. If you can get past your pessimistic outlook on life, and the thought that everyone is a "gangsta", among other things, your other problem will take care of it's self. I have met you and you seem like a really nice guy, even if a bit paranoid. That's okay, if you can get past that a bit, you'll have a much better chance of "riding the subway" so to speak.
My wallet was never returned to my old address (my school ID had my old address) which probably means it was stolen.
It doesn't hurt me, but you do have to be called to this kind of life. It is not for everybody.
Elias
It is very humiliating to find ones wallet missing, whether stolen or just fallen out of your pocket. I always make it a point to keep it in my left front pocket, and to make sure that my pockets are deep enough. A wallet can fall out of a shallow pocket very easily and without fanfare. I learned that the hard way. Luckily a good Samaritan notified me before it was too late. Lacking deep enough pockets, I'll put my wallet in a butt pack- er, fanny pack.
At age 28, I did have my wallet lifted while in a crowded Queens bar. I'll spare you the embarrassing specifics. Cutting to the chase, I drove to the local precinct to report it, and get written verification that my license was stolen should I get stopped while driving. Fortunately, I had just renewed my license and was awaiting it in the mail, so it was my temporary license that was in the wallet.
ME: "I'd like to report my wallet was stolen."
P.O.: "Did you drive here to report this?"
ME: "Yes."
P.O.: "Was your drivers license in your wallet?"
ME: "Yes."
P.O.: "Do you know that driving without your license is a summonsable offense?"
After much questioning of me that clearly implied I was at fault for the disappearance of my wallet, they didn't give me a summons- or written verification of my missing license. It was the Friday night beginning of Labor Day weekend, so I had to wait till Tuesday to go to the bank to have my ATM card replaced. From the confusion exhibited by the Citibank customer service officers, you would think I was the first person who ever lost his ATM card. Fortunately, I didn't have my Visa card in my wallet at all. A few days later, my permanent license arrived.
Losing ones wallet today would hold much higher stakes. My annual Transitcheck Metrocard is in there!
Good luck in the future- and be CAREFUL.
#3 West End Jeff
Look pal if you think my life is a vacation think again!
I maybe do "railfanning" or bus fanning once or twice a week. All the other days are errands, appointments, and looking for work. I have to find the right job, something for 18 hours or so a week where I dont have to deal with people (retail I definately cannot handle). Also you want to work in a job where you actually make money, not lose money. I'm meeting with a few people (who unlike you, have training in psychological illnesss)in the next week or two and will help me find work.
You havent been diagnosed with anxiety and depression so butt out making personal comments about me. Anyway its a waste of time trying to convince people like you about mental illness so why do I even bother trying.....
This is the last time I explain myself to comments attacking me. Any one who makes any more comments will be killfiled, PERIOD.
If I were you and either if my wallet was lost, stolen or given over in an armed robbery, I wouldn't have gone to SubTalk and tell the whole world. You did create a monster post with tons of responses. Just keep it on topic and people will treat you better.
Bill "Newkirk"
MY GOD!!!! By Jove, the young lad's finally GOT IT!!!
HIP, HIP, HOORAY!!!!!
Anxiety or depression do not require a person per se to work only 18 hours a week. People with these diagnoses can and do work full-time, 40 hours a week. If you look for a full-time job the advantage there is you're more likely to get the benefits that go along with full-time work (health insurance etc. etc.)
And there are jobs out there you can do that do not require working with the public.
BTW, can you do programming? Check out www.rentacoder.com.
THIS IS A VACATION!!! How many of us have the time to go railfanning even once a week?
Some of us work near a location conducive to railfanning and have a job that lets us duck out at lunch time for 45 minutes and do a little railfanning.
I realize that you're implying riding the LIRR for an hour and riding a few subwy lines, then back on the LIRR for another hour when you say "railfanning", but some of us take what we can get. Then when we take a vacation day and do REAL railfanning, some kid like Jersey Mike or Ronald McDoobie gets jealous that an old fart gets 6 WEEKS VACATION!!!!
BTW, Hi ya, Bob!
18 hours a week? I work 40, and that's too much, but I am also aware that there are people who must work between 55 and 70 to make ends meet. I also cut my expenses back so I only have to work 40 hours, but some of the people that are working 55-70 live in areas where their fixed expenses consume more of their paycheck than is generally deemed healthy.
But you can write and are pretty artsy -- why not try to get a position as a reporter or photographer?
AEM7
Thereby creating a way for hundreds of thousands of US manufacturing jobs to be siphoned off to there, as well as legitimizing a communist government with human rights violations coming out the wazoo, all while simultaneously creating a balky, convoluted definition of what china is, which prevented later administrations from getting Taiwan the help it needed to keep the mainland at bay. Oh, and how could I forget, he also sold out a democratic nation poised next to a communist nuclear power and kicked the democratic country out of the UN while admitting the communist one.
...signed the first nuclear reduction ABM Treaty...
Yep, which was a piece of flawwed logic when you think about it. Why is it okay for two nations to threaten each other with utter destruction many times over, yet it is suddenly wrong for those two nations to attempt to develop systems to safeguard their people? MAD wasn't a statesmanship technique, it was idiocy. So long as the balance of power changes evenly on both sides, everything is cool, and now there is a nice little backup in the event of a Failsafe scenario.
But I guess it's a moot point since your buddy Dubya used the ABM treaty for toilet paper a year or two ago, all for a missile shield that doesn't have a hope of making a difference in an all out nuclear exchange. And that assumes that it works, which is more than a bit iffy, since it is now questionable as to whether the exo-atmospheric kinetic kill device can survive take-off on the NMD interceptor, since that accelerates faster than the test booster they've been using now.
started real Affirmative Action
Well, he really just kept doing what Johnson started in that respect. I guess we should give him credit for keeping it going, after all he's not attacking it like some of your friends.
finally ended the Vietnam War
Again, that's just because he kept doing what Johnson did, micromanaging the war from Washington. Through 1972 the staff running the war in Vietnam had plans to implement an attack like the kind seen in 1991 over Iraq, but Nixon, like Johnson, avoided giving his generals and admirals that much rope, which resulted in more people getting killed over there than was neccessary. Yes there were concerns about Russia and China coming to the aid of their Vietnamese comrades, but if Nixon was such a great guy how come he couldn't sort them out?
Bush ended the ABM Treaty because it was no longer viable unless you can find the Soviet Union that Reagan brought down on a map somewhere.
And Mussolini made the trains run on time. Fred, I actually voted for him in my first Presidential election but let's face it, all the positive things about Nixon cannot make up for the fact he was involved in obstruction of justice and a coverup in a burglary. Read the transcripts of the tapes, he even asked his henchmen, Halderman, Ehrlichman, and Dean, how much they thought the Mafia would charge them to assist in the coverup.
Can you take that statement and apply it to Clinton, whose only problem was that he had a blow job in the Oval Office, (pace Whitewater et al), but still managed to accomplish quite a lot while in office.
I dont believe in absolutes, especially as it concerns politicians. I also believe that private lives should be private. I could never run for office in the US, because I would tell people who wanted to look at my tax returns etc, etc, None of your ****** business!
Nixon had accomplishments, Clinton had accomplishments. Both understood what their job was and what they were doing.
I wish I could say the same for the present administration.
How bizarre ... how bizarre ...
With the liberal media out with their shovels, digging into the personal and family areas with a no holds barred attitude, Colin has decided that the personal cost is too high and he will not put his family through it.
New York MTA expands info online
from the Transportation Communications Newsletter
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Wow, a %10 increase in ticket sales bringing in a grand total of 30 million in revenue. Go Amtrak.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Full
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I am surprised this hasn't been reported yet. Last week some time Amtrak's Beech Grove shoppes went on strike for the reasons listed in the article. Hmmm, if I were working for a company teetering on the brink I don't think that I would really want to strike.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Beech
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I mean who DOSEN'T want their own Amtrak station???
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Plaistow
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I think that Jeb and George had a spat about who was the bigger Bush (ie ignorant asshole). Well, since the national constitution isn't getting in the way of big Bush I don't see how a state constitution could get in the way of little Bush.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Florida
BTW why do you support licenses for illegals. By limiting their mobility you can force down the wages they can demand.
Because it's easier for them to get a license than a chick in an SUV talking on the cell-phone. All i need is even less people on the road with a 1/4 of a clue and no insurance.
And guess what, if they have a CA license, they can automatically get a FL or NY one just by moving in without takig test or anything else once again.
Enron: There's hundreds of company's that do worse everyday to people. Can we say Wal-marts old practice of buying life-insurance on it's employees and cashing in on the policies if something happens to them? There's a win-win.
ANd I thought Cali's new gov. always bowed down to special interest I heard.
Lobby your state legislature. MA legislature requires most people moving in to take a written test. Yes, you can drive here with a CA licence, and you can renew it by mail, but you still don't have an MA licence. What difference does it make? Well, most liquor stores and banks only accept MA, NH, and VT licences as ID. Just ask anyone who drives in from Maine to Boston. They have hell a time trying to convince people that their ME licence is real.
AEM7
I've been wishing everyone had to do a written test over again.
Talk about bizzare. DMV will accept out-of-state licences for the purposes of car ownership, but non-governmental entities require MA, NH or VT licences.
AEM7
$50 million for an indoor rainforest in Iowa
$400,000 for a Trout Genome Mapping project
$225,000 for the National Wild Turkey Federation
According to Taxpayers for Common Sense, this years total of pork spending is expected to exceed the record set in 2002 where 9,300 pet projects cost us a total of $22.5 billion, which could be better used, say, for the Second Avenue Subway, or upgrading rail infrastructure for higher speeds.
Its called getting value for money.
Wow, I didn't know alcoholics were so committed to their beverages of choice.
But then again, you got NASA, who, even though is supposed to get the funding it needs, a very high percentage is all pork. SO NASA technically doesn't get much, and yet, they probably never have to worry about being cut completely.
"and at some point you realize they're all just lining their own pockets"
attached to the end of it.
CG
I don't know what your comment has to do with high speed rail in Flordia, but I do miss the days when the president spent his time getting himself off rather than wasking hundreds of billions of my tax dollars in a useless war that will only lead to a second Iran. Here's what I don't get. You're a greedy republican, yet you opposed Clinton, who's leisure activities didn't cost you one red cent and you support Bush that's probably piddled away $100 or so of the very tax dollars you paid on a war that's sole point is to boost his image and approval numbers. Inventing a war so that you can push your adgenda through congress and "unite" the public behind you is exactly the same tactic as setting fire to the Reichstag so that you can declare a state of emergency with all the special powers thereof.
As I said back in 2000, I much prefer presidents lying about personal bussiness than about policy.
BTW, since the regime you are a member effectivly has total control over all three branches of government why do you even feel need to respond to me with vicious personal attacks? I mean you won, why aren't you happy about it. Your main man Bush is putting the squash on High Speed Rail in Flordia. You should be feeling all pumped that such a "liberal" concept as rail transit is being stopped.
AEM7
It's amazing how many people were persuaded that Iraq presented an immediate threat to the USA. Despite the lack of evidence, the public was duped into a bogus association between Iraq and al-Qaeda. Bush made a terrible mistake by acting unilaterally, and now we're finding out that there is no exit strategy.
It's been plain since day 0 that there was no exit strategy. The public just choose to ignore that fact because Bush was able to mesmorize them with a waving flag.
Except maybe using White House GSA funds to purchase cigars at a nearby store. LOL
As far as tax money goes we are fighting an expensive war on terror which will not end soon.
So why don't we spend the money to actually fight terror? Contrary to the propaganda Saddam was probably the best of all possible solutions re: fighting terrorism in Iraq. Do you actually think that Saddam, a secular dictator, would in any way support an islamic revolutionary terrorist organization??? Saddam only cared about one thing...himself. Due to sanctions he long ago had to divert most of his weapons budget into the Palace Fund. Why would we want to give the US an excuse to knock his flimsly armies aside by attacking us? With Saddam gone we will see one of two outcomes. 1) the Iraquies choose their own government which will probably Islamist and will support terrorism just like our best buddy Saudi Arabia. 2) We install a seclar, pro-western puppet government which is later overthrown by an angry Islamist govermnent that will support terroism just like fellow axis of evil member Iran.
Congraduations, you spent 200 billion dollars to create Iran 2.
Hey, here's a radical idea for you. Why don't you combat terrorism by combating global poverty? Maybe if people had something to LIVE for they wouldn't be so quick to blow themselves up. Maybe if people had access to secular schools they wouldn't become brainwashed fundamentalists. You can't stop terrorism short of some kind of mass extermination. We learned that lesson in vietnam and Isreal is learning that lesson now. The War on Terror will be no more successful than the war on drugs. Its just another rat hole for your money to disappear down.
or the US as we know it will never be the same again.
You're right, it will be better.
Geez um, which fucking left wing sucker has suckered you in? Tiffany per chance? I never knew she was one of those earthly Green nuts! Mike, you need some senses knocked into you! Get a girlfriend from the South and you'll be Republican in no time.
AEM7
AEM7
Mark
Hey, but global poverty is the reason why you and I can have air conditioning in the summer, and heat in the winter; cheap shoes, clothes, and food. Think about this for a minute: if the factory workers in India and other apparel-producing countries were paid Union wages in Massachusetts -- or somehow means-tested for their standards of living and be paid a "fair" wage, do you really think you and I could afford to live the way we do?
There are many ways to run the numbers, but whichever way you run it you realize that if you redistributed wealth and resources throughout the entire world "equitably", nobody would have that much.
Global poverty pays for my luxuries. I like it.
AEM7
Mark
That's what the global sustainability movement is all about. Basically it says that if we can all live with less, then everyone would be better off and the earth's resources would be depleted slower. I agree with that. It doesn't just apply to T-shirts, but any equipment and consumables that could be shared: zero to one TV per household instead of the average 2.2; smaller servings of fude; less driving and more public transit; longer wait times on public transit; slower pace of life.
BUT this presupposes: If the average American were content with ten t-shirts, which is clearly not true. And since this sustainable lifestyle on a massive basis is clearly unattainable, we will have to put up with global poverty being a consequence of our (American citizens in the Northeast, Midwest and California) lavish living. And since I'm part of this lavish living (hell, I moved third-way across the globe two times to escape the so-called poverty), I am prepared to defend it.
I'm a big advocate of using electronic ink to display T-shirt designs, so I could have one T-shirt and cycle many different designs on it just by re-programming the T-shirt, and if I needed to go to a business meeting I could reprogram it to display "white". But the technology isn't there yet. Cheaper to buy many T-shirts each with a different design on it, because of global poverty.
AEM7
Mark
The past is not the present, nor the future.
Mark
A typical small-town view. Perhaps even 30 years ago that might have been true, but these days economies do not come from decentralized production. Witness the failure of the rust belt cities -- a shadow of their former self. And foreign competition is not completely to blame.
AEM7
Ever since this country was founded its growth has relied upon the exploitation of some group. First it was the african slaves. Then it was skilled immigrants from the old world who carried us through the 50's. With the orginizational rise of the American worker we have learned to look overseas for our cheep labout. The best part about that is that we don't actually have to let them into our country...although that it why domestic construction quality has really really sagged.
Bingo. It's all distribution. Economy can only grow stably at some 2%-3% per year.
Actually, that's not the reason. The reason you're losing your job to some Chinese guy is because the trade barriers came down. Trade barriers is what allows you to keep your wages high. It has relatively little to do with global poverty. It is not clear whether trade barriers increase or decrease global poverty, because, (1) if the barriers were up, the people in China have nothing because they have no market to sell their products to; (2) if the barriers were down, the people in China compete against those in India and other places, driving their prices down, but they end up having nothing become the competition is fierce.
Global poverty has nothing to do with your losing your job. Trade barriers is what causes you to lose your job. Global poverty will exist regardless of who manufactures the stuff we consume in the U.S.
Unless foreign labor understand how to organize and bargain for better conditions, global poverty will continue to exist. If they don't know what's good for them, it's their problem.
AEM7
Then, revolution is needed, and that isn't an U.S. issue. Reality check on history here: the French had six revolutions before the ruling class finally realized that they must step down and let workers get their fair share of economic prosperity. Britain managed to avoid a revolution but it took radical leadership such as Ramsay Macdonald to limit the power of the ruling class, and to this day there is poverty and the working class continue to be oppressed and barred from top jobs. If opppressive governments in China are squashing the workers who form Unions, then it is up to the workers Union to arm themselves to the teeth and overthrow the government in order to get their "fair" share. U.S. can facilitate that by supplying weapons technology to Chinese labor organizations, and earn some money in the process.
America needs a manufacuring base to continue to field a superior military force. If our most talented people are channelled into USELESS fields like Business Administration and economics, rather than engineering and technology, then America will no longer be able to have the best military technology.
John, I agree wholeheartedly with you, except that it works both ways. The definition of 'talent' varies, what I have going for me is a bachelors degree in Physics, a masters degree in Transportation, an IQ that would put me in the top 10% of the U.S. population, and two years' experience with infrastructure and railroad companies. I have spent most of my working career trying to get a job that involves engineering or management of engineering. And I'm f**king stuck here working for Corporate America because I don't have enough seniority to hold a job worth shit on the railroad. Just today, I called a railroad to see if they have a job for me. No, all they have open is Union positions, and I'm not eligible for those because I actually have a f**king degree.
People like me try and try to get into engineering, manufacturing, or operations. We get beaten back by Unions leaders that started hammering spikes at seventeen and looks down on anyone with any education. I'm not saying starting on the track gang at 17 isn't as honourable as going to college at 17, but track work isn't for everyone and the Unions have made it such that if you don't do track work, or don't drive a bus, you can't get into engineering, manufacturing, or operations. Whose fault is that? When I'm offered an Union job is when I'll start working for real.
AEM7
Why don't you check out the resume of a certain Leo Mullin. If I recall correctly, Mr. Mullin started out as a McKinsey and Co. Consultant. He then was recruited into senior management. Before running Delta Airlines, he ran Conrail.
Why not toss McKinsey or Bain or Deloitte and Touche consulting, a resume?
haha! I know someone who works for McKinsey out of New York. He tried to recruit me at one point, then realized I was too honest talking for his purposes. I have a friend who works for Deloitte & Touche out of London (he used to work for Arthur Andersen, and then they got taken over after the accounting scandal erupted). I think that if I had wanted to stay in a backwards country... I might be working for D&T now. I think that I'm entirely responsible for the career mess I got myself in now -- and it's not really a mess, it's okay, just not what I envisioned when I first made the move to a lesser-backwards country. Who knows -- I've a whole life ahead of me.
My reflections,
AEM7
Still, their desire to hire you speaks well of you.
No on two counts: (1) They never went as far as "desire to hire me", he just asked me to contact this guy if I am interested in a career there; (2) The desire to recruit me really is a testiment to networking opportunities at conferences that I'd been granted, and has little to do with my abilities in anything...
It's sad that hiring decisions really depend more on networking than on ability.
For what it's worth, I appreciate the intellect you show in your posts.
So have any of you seen Hugh Grant's "Love Actually"? I found it really quite deep and refreshing. It's both social commetary and represents a uniquely British perspective to what we're just been talking about here re: Shrub. Described my sentiments perfectly, by the way. AEM7
Yep. Really a film aimed for soppy girls, but it was quite fun to watch, nonetheless.
Just one thing - Martine McCutcheon so isn't fat.
It's both social commetary and represents a uniquely British perspective
I'll drink to tha'. Long live Souff London!
I don't about it being aimed for soppy girls -- it's aimed at the American general population. The antithesis of that is an artsy movie called "Pieces of April". Really both tell the same story, but the setting is kind of different. The social commentary in "Pieces of April" is more aimed at the urban, working crowd.
Just one thing - Martine McCutcheon so isn't fat.
She's definitely worthy of a First Lady. Incidentally, I thought the way they zoomed in on the Christmas card she supposedly wrote to Hugh Grant was kind of interesting. She vaguely reminded me of British girls I knew. Beyond about 8th grade though, I never knew anyone like that. It was interesting to see an age-progressed version of people I used to know.
AEM7
Fred, the funny thing is, I know several people like that. It's an Irish thing. (I'm obviously having my Irish kick tonight.) I felt that the point of the movie is that she felt morally bound by her familial committments, and I can understand where she is coming from. At the end of the day, you might be dating some wonderful person but your family is just that, your family. These days couples part by divorce but family will always remain blood relatives. I didn't live with my dad since I was about 12 (by the way, not due to a divorce, due to a employment-location situation) and I had lived alone since I was about 17. I understand why she needed to go and take care of her brother. If I were the guy in the movie, I would have understood and supported her all the way. I hope. (I guess I won't know until I have to deal with that kind of situation, and I hope I never have to!)
And yes, she was pretty cute.
AEM7
I think there are a number of reasons for that. Firstly Irish culture has traditionally permitted men to be drunk at the weekends and the result is that some men abused their wives. Irish girls are a tough breed and has in general been able to deal with that, but some began to look outside their culture in an attempt to escape from these undesirable men that they grew up knowing. Thus the Irish have historically been more accepting to cross-cultural marriages than other. Then there's the fact that Irish immigrants came later and was initially rejected by the mainstream Americans. The result is a culture that is very willing to open up to others where they are accepted. And there's the fact that Irish culture on the whole have traditionally been very hospitable, and generally treated people nicely even if they were somehow different. The culture probably developed out of necessity as some Irish people were travellers that relied on pretty much strangers to help them out in unfamiliar territory.
I know these are cultural stereotypes and obviously are not all true, but these are general trends that I have observed. I've had good luck with Irish girls too, and I have found them in general much more accepting than others. But they also do have a very strong family culture -- shared by the Italians and some of the Asian cultures.
AEM7
What, specifically, does "soppy" mean in this context?
soppy adjective INFORMAL DISAPPROVING
showing or feeling too much of emotions such as love or sympathy, rather than being reasonable or practical:
e.g. "a film with a soppy ending"
"That's one of the soppiest stories I've ever heard!"
"Some people are really soppy about their pets."
AEM7 -- The Bridge between North America and Great Britainnia
Ah. In other words, soppy chix are the sort of chix who, when writing, dot the letter i with little hearts.
Not necessarily, but basically, yes. I sometimes wish the more practical women would do such soppy things. Then they would be perfect!
Hopefully a rail bridge :-)
They don't. Opporunities to put yourself in a position to be hired depend more on networking than ability. At most quality firms, though, the hiring decision will still be an ability-based one.
If you want to work for a railroad, then get yourself down to one of those consultants. The railroads fully understand the problems they've created for themselves and hire out consultants to do (and supervise) much of the difficult work anyway.
If you want to enrich yourself at the expense of others that is a perfectly fine choice, just be honest about it. Don't go around feeling that you're somehow doing the rest of the world a service by your actions and don't get all pissy and indignent when they set off a truck bomb under some building.
You can get mad that they got past your security, just don't feel that you're some injured party deserving of pitty.
What really cheeses me off is not our actions around the world, but the fact that we lie to ourselves about it. If the president and a majority of the public wanted to go around fucking the world because frankly they just didn't care and it made them better off, I would be fine with it. But this whole "real adgenda" "facade adgenda" is really crap. Not only is the public being lied to, it hinders our effectiveness in our "real adgenda". If we want to be some exploitive imperalist power we need to go all out...like Britan or South Africa. If for the sake of the faccade we pussy foot around like we did in Vietnam we will just waste American lives and money.
Wait, the U.S. did not impoverish the Rest of the World. In fact, U.S. demands have driven development in many places that wouldn't have had development otherwise. Lots of sweatshops and factories were developed in places like Taiwan, Hong Kong, Malaysia, India, serving chiefly U.S. and British demands. Taiwan made cheap plastic toys. Malaysia made electronics. India made clothes. Indonesia made shoes. U.S. demand has not CAUSED the poverty. The issue here is that competition and free-market in satisfying that demand has caused the poverty. The solution is somehow restore pricing power back into the system. Only foreign Unions and governments can do that. The apparel and cheap plastic toys exporting countries need to form a cartel like OPEC, or a conference like SRCC, to regulate their prices.
Life decent in the 1980s? For you the upper-middle class professional suburbanite, perhaps. Go ask a few single moms how they brought up their kids in the 1980s, versus the kind of stuff that single moms can afford now. Most of that prosperity at the bottom end of the income scale has been afforded by making sweatshops in Eastern countries.
If you want to enrich yourself at the expense of others that is a perfectly fine choice, just be honest about it.
And how was I dishonest? Or are we agreeing here?
What really cheeses me off is not our actions around the world, but the fact that we lie to ourselves about it. If the president and a majority of the public wanted to go around fucking the world because frankly they just didn't care and it made them better off, I would be fine with it.
Yes, politicians lie. You and I see the real agenda. I choose to enjoy the real agenda. You choose to fight it claiming some world peace solution. D'you think you'd REALLY want the world peace solution? You're the hypocrit here.
AEM7
Opening up oppurtinities in other lands is fine and I am all for it...but forcing people from whatever life they are living and giving them the choice between starvation and wage slavery is another matter indeed. We have done both and I don't partitiularily agree with the latter.
Its the classic tale of when one or a few people control all the respurces. The other people have to do whatever the one or few wants, no matter how represensible, because the only other option is death. When the other people become indifferent to death, then then the problems begin.
I mean just look at the crippling debt load the third world faces
Please be more specific, you might be able to educate me here. Which country, what debt load, and how is it 'crippling'? Specifically, when a country is unable to pay its debt to the World Bank or U.S. interests, what happens? If my understanding is correct, the debts are almost always restructured, and sometimes investors end up with dimes on the dollar for their investment. How is this crippling?
or some of the environmental crises we have exported
Please be specific. What environmental crises? The Greenhouse gas problem is common to the globe. The other pollution resulting from overuse of gasoline are mostly local, and limited to U.S. cities. The toxic chemical processing has been mostly exported, but developing countries can just as easily legislate against those externalities as the U.S. has. Yes, countries like India scrap Bermuda-flagged vessel on their open shores with manual labor, no protection, and actylene torches, draining fuel and other pollutant into the sea. Whose responsibility is that? I'd contend, the Indian government. They have pricing power over their own scrapping operations.
or the brutal dictatorships we have set up.
Update me on the situation in Iran. I am not familiar with that part of World History.
but forcing people from whatever life they are living and giving them the choice between starvation and wage slavery is another matter indeed. We have done both and I don't partitiularily agree with the latter.
They are empowered to change their own living situation, by one of a few means: (1) Attempt to move to the U.S. -- many Indians succeed every year in obtaining residency after completing a degree and practical training in the U.S.; (2) They could use their governance structure to institute fair wage policies; they could unite against the United States, if necessary, by forceful overthrowing of their governments so they can institute protectionist trade barriers.
It[']s the classic tale of when one or a few people control all the res[o]urces. The other people have to do whatever the one or few wants, no matter how represensible, because the only other option is death. When the other people become indifferent to death, then then the problems begin.
No. The issue is that the people who have control over resources outside the U.S. are not exercising such control effectively. There are ways, to send jolts into the U.S. economy simply by changing oil output levels. There are other levers. For example, China could vastly increase the value of its currency against the U.S. dollar by leveraging the trade deficit. They just hadn't done it, because they want to continue to sell Chinese workers out at those poverty wages. China doesn't have a democratic government. It would not be too difficult to organize one, especially if the vast army saw what they could do if they disobeyed the Party and instead obeyed the People.
Last time I checked Argentina and most of Central America seemed pretty fucked over. These countries are given the choice of (albeit delayed) repayment or never receiving any international investment again ever via a periment FF bond rating.
Yes, countries like India scrap Bermuda-flagged vessel on their open shores with manual labor, no protection, and actylene torches, draining fuel and other pollutant into the sea. Whose responsibility is that? I'd contend, the Indian government. They have pricing power over their own scrapping operations.
If India passes laws the bussiness will move elsewhere and the Indian workers will starve. As I said, the choice is poison your land, or starve. This model can be applied to most exported environmental problems. People don't care about 20 years down the road when they are starving now. Endangered animals are food, rainforrests are lumber. What do they care if the world goes belly up in 2100 if they are dying next week.
(2) They could use their governance structure to institute fair wage policies; they could unite against the United States, if necessary, by forceful overthrowing of their governments so they can institute protectionist trade barriers.
This takes around 50-100 years to happen.
The issue is that the people who have control over resources outside the U.S. are not exercising such control effectively. There are ways, to send jolts into the U.S. economy simply by changing oil output levels. There are other levers. For example, China could vastly increase the value of its currency against the U.S. dollar by leveraging the trade deficit. They just hadn't done it, because they want to continue to sell Chinese workers out at those poverty wages. China doesn't have a democratic government. It would not be too difficult to organize one, especially if the vast army saw what they could do if they disobeyed the Party and instead obeyed the People.
But if China raised the price of its workers firms would just move the "Nike Boat" to a different port where the workers would work for less. The end result being the Chineese workers all starving because they paved over their farmland for factories.
BTW, I really think Nike should have a floating factory that could move to the lowest wages.
Okay, so what is your grief? They couldn't repay their debt and renegotiated their repayment schedule. Just like United Airlines, American Airlines, and the Wheeling & Lake Erie Railroad did. Permanent bond ratings are permanent until repealed. How long have you been in management? Do you know how to manage your creditor relationships?
If India passes laws the businesses will move elsewhere and the Indian workers will starve. As I said, the choice is poison your land, or starve. This model can be applied to most exported environmental problems.
Precisely where would the scrappers move if India, Pakistan, and China moved to legislate? Is moving an operation cost neutral? If you legislate in such a way that makes the cost of the move cheaper than the compliance in any given year, but tighten up the legislation progressively, do you think people will still move? Businesses are far less nimble than you realize, and I'm a policy enterpreuner (to borrow a term from the 90's).
[Overthrowing governments] takes around 50-100 years to happen.
Precisely how long did it take for the Russian Revolution to occur? [The answer: approximately 15 years by most accounts, from a Tzarist government to basically a Stalin government.]
But if China raised the price of its workers firms would just move the "Nike Boat" to a different port where the workers would work for less.
Have you ever heard of "stranded assets"? And what happens when the Chinese workers who inherited the abandoned Nike equipment goes into business making shoes and not have to pay capital costs, is competing a sweatshop with all new equipment who is still paying off the capital? Come on, Mike, you are supposed to be an economist.
AEM7
Two years ago I might have agreed with you, but after I spent a year trying to persuade a Midwestern girl to move to the coast with me and then she had the decency to go sleep with a local auto mechanic (this is after we promised each other not to sleep with people anymore until we were to be married)... I have three words for that Midwestern bitch: PURE YOUR ASS.
My condolences, AEM.
The mechanic guy has my respect, by the way. He was real nice to her, and I'm not sure I could have done the same thing. Hick chicks should date hicks, because their lifestyles fit together better!
AEM7
I'm not sure about all four. I'm happy, and my girlfriend is (I think) happy apart from the fact that I sometimes have some stress issues (but then, who doesn't)? The mechanic guy as far as I know is still going around screwing lots of young femmes (he has a daughter with his previous wife, and after marrying her out of high school they divorced when she was 25 -- not bad for a high school marriage), and the Midwestern cow, well, she moved about 100 miles away (from the town in which all this happened) when she went to college, and I'm not sure who she's with now, but make no mistake: she'll find someone, and it'll be someone who she could walk all over. Those guys do exist, and they deserve her!
AEM7
Which means there will be less money to fight a war on the homefront; the current flu epidemic. People are dying in the U.S and there is not enough flu vaccines to go around, and yet Bush approved spending $87 BILLION to rebuild a country 15,000 miles away.
About 80-95% of that $87 BILLION will go to U.S. companies, employees, or investors. That's at least $60 BILLION in a U.S. economic stimulus package, approved through the backdoor. If those same U.S. companies, employees, and investors would donate some of their earnings from war-related efforts to paying for flu vaccine, we might not have this crisis. Unfortunately, U.S. companies, employees, and investors are too stupid, so they have to be fooled with an excuse such as rebuilding a country or fighting against terrorism.
AEM7
By the way, out of that 87 billion dollars, how does paying to train middle managers in iraq stimulate our economy? How does building a cell phone network and establish zip codes help my wallet? I hope those subdivisions that part of the 87 billion is earmarked for helps me out a little. I need it.
American personnel employed in developing training material, transporting training material, transmitting training material, and actually training personel in Iraq, with associated costs associated with logistics of getting out there (U.S. airlines and U.S. steamship operators).
How does building a cell phone network and establish zip codes help my wallet?
U.S. firms collect licence fees. U.S. firms design the equipment, which are then manufactured by companies in Asia owned by U.S. investors.
I hope those subdivisions that part of the 87 billion is earmarked for helps me out a little. I need it.
What line of business are you in?
AEM7
Since before the birth of America, war has been a profitable enterprise. Why? Businessmen hosing the government with anything, materials they dont' need, substandard materials, etc. Take a look at the civil war, people became millionaires by selling faulty ammunitions(sp?) to the union. We aren't talking about trickle down economics about employees buying shoes and socks or going to the local pub and spending money. I want to know what happens when we have to pay back the 87billion dollars from this spend and not tax administration.
Not much. Hyperinflation results, people lost their life savings that were in the banks, but anybody who owned any property do okay. Anyone who has more wealth than they could reasonably use (i.e. in stocks and shares, in property they do not reside) have their wealth stripped away by mobs.
Currency failure is the ultimate tool for redistributing resources.
AEM7
87 billion will go a long way for High Speed Rail networks that will not only create periment jobs in their constuction and operation, but will also serve to revitalize decaying urban centers, reduce pollution and drop gasoline prices by reducing demand.
Holy crap, we got back on topic, I don't believe it.
Can you say NIMBIES? I'd like to see you try ot spend $87 billion on infrastructure and not get called on it by political naysayers. This nation is one of naysayers, and now you naysayers are finding out the costs of nymbism. Development is going abroad with Federal money. Serves you right, NIMBIES!
AEM7
As far as Big Bush goes. I was starting to like the man when he let Rumsfield blow everything up. The second he stopped Rumsfield having control and is playing into sissie polictics, it's all over now. The situation went from good to intolerable in the mid-east, making sure we have to pay at least 30-40% tax rate 15-30 years form now because of this not-tax and spend policy, and dropping the steel tariffs because of even more lil sissy foreign politcs. Big Bush almost had me liking him when he tried to end the 15 year old "war" with Saddam. Everything else he's been doing is a joke.
Get this, the Democrats are supposed to be Tax and Spend right? Take a look at the Philadelphia Parking Authority after the all great Tom Ridge took control when he was governor. That department of graft's budget balooned out of control. And with the Republicans in control of everything else, we now spend $21,000 per household at the federal level while taking in only $17,000 each.
Don't tax, yet spend excessively.
I almost forget to mention my fav big bush problem. He decided to not fund the border patrol(plus all those federal grants to local law enforcement, hello new crime wave). Now we "process" people who get caught on the border, and tell them to go home on their own, but they just stick around, no border protections.
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Now lets get back on topic with my bullet train, I wanted to go to Orlando today, but its too damn annoying on I-4!!!!! I also want to go to Tampa a little later on, but the express bus sit's in grid-lock, my bullet train would serve as a commuter system here too!!!!
What we should be asking the Clintons is about Whitewater, where they pocketed their money while others lost their savings, an issue that was never satisfactorily resolved.
You are right about the class though. Clinton didnt have it, Shrub doesntthough his father did.
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Heh, now with the BLE merging with the Teamsters they can just cut out the middleman and block rail service directly.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Truckers
Incredible. The motoring industries are always fighting against rail as it effects their pocketbook. Three quarters of a million passengers could really benefit from rail but that will not be the case.
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Hmmm, I'll bet they'll try to blame the railroad for the automotive traffic signal being defective.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Traffic
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Until the next NIMBY assault.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Greenbush
Regarding the 2000 election, you can blame it on the media, but I prefer to blame the "winner take all" Electoral College system. I was not happy about the outcome, nor about the fact that it was ultimately decided in the Supreme Court. But I have to admit that James Baker did an outstanding job of upholding the result.
The winner would have to appeal to the majority of people. Democracy means government by the people, not by the states.
Technically yes. But in a broader sense America does embrace and advocate democratic principles.
Both Mike (on the left) and Fred (on the right) say that America is not a democracy, so who am I to argue?
But Alexis de Tocqueville, a "liberal" French aristocrat, visited America in 1831. He sought to answer the political riddle of the era: Why was it that democracy flourished in America? What was the secret of American success, and could it be brought home to France?
He answered the question by writing a book called "Democracy in America", which I confess I have not read. Was Tocqueville mistaken, or has America become less democratic since those days?
I think that was the original Greek meaning. By that definition you are right, and there are very few real democracies in that sense. Switzerland may be one. The system of voting on Propositions (referendums) in state elections (which I understand is not provided for in the Constitution) is another.
The Electoral College seems an anachronism in these days of instant communication, and the winner-take-all principle gives an unfair advantage to voters in small states. Government by elected officials does not require an Electoral College. But it would take a Constitutional Amendment ratified by 3/4 of states to abolish it.
No it does not, it gives them the advantage that they deserve.
"In all cases where a majority are united by a common interest or passion, the rights of the minority are in danger." --James Madison
In 2000, there is only one clear minority that received an advantage due to the electoral system: the minority of U.S. voters who favored Bush.
States are like nations. Each states deserves it's equal status.
What about other minorities, some of whom tend to live in large states?
That's what state legislatures are for. Too bad that the Supreme Court decided that states can't have geographic senates.
If that's how you feel, then you should be satisfied that each state elects a governor. Who cares about the president?
Each states [sic] deserves it's [sic] equal status.
Nations aren't equal.
That's what state legislatures are for. Too bad that the Supreme Court decided that states can't have geographic senates.
What does this have to do with electing a president?
Who would be the chief executive of the federation?
Nations aren't equal.
They are if they agree to become part of a federation.
What does this have to do with electing a president?
What makes electing a president different from other governmental matters?
The issue was decided long ago in the U.S., but not in the E.U.
"European Constitution Summit Collapses
A plan backed by France and Germany would replace the EU's complex, population-based voting system with a formula under which key decisions could be passed by a simple majority of 13 of the 25 members if they represent 60 percent of the EU's population.
Spain and Poland said the proposal concentrated too much power in the hands of EU's big four Germany, France, Britain and Italy. They want to keep a system that gives them almost as many votes as Germany, the union's biggest member. "
Associated Press 13 Dec 2003
This is not so. The National Government is a Federation of States. You are a citizen of a state, you vote in STATE ELECTIONS. The several states elect the president of the United States. This is the way the constitution was written. To change it would require an amendment to the constitution, and this will NEVER HAPPEN. It would require a vote of 2/3s of the STATES, and there are no small states that would vote for this, even though the electoral college leverages for the larger states.
What happens is that here in North Dakota, our 600,000 people get 3 electoral votes, or 200,000 people per electoral vote.
You add up the number of people in NY, divide it by the total number of Representatives and Senators for your state, and find out how much your vote is worth, compared to mine.
Elias
I was referring to the situation that would arise if there were no Electoral College.
here in North Dakota, our 600,000 people get 3 electoral votes
Small states are over-represented, and large states are under-represented, thanks to the Electoral College system.
This argument began when I tried to blame the Florida 2000 election fiasco on the "winner-take-all" method by which the Electoral College is appointed in that state. If Florida had appointed its Electoral College delegates by congressional district (as in Maine and Nebraska), that particular crisis would not have occurred. The Electoral College is written into the Constitution, but the winner-take-all system is not.
Also because of the Senate. The electoral college's has almost never affected the election, there are very few times that the winner of the popular vote did not win the electoral vote:
1824: Andrew Jackson (DR-TN) won the plurality of the popular vote (an irrelevant statistic, since many large states still had the legislature choose electors) and the plurality of the electoral vote, but because he did not win a majority of the latter, the House had to choose a President. voting by state, the winner was John Quincy Adams (DR-MA). Four years later, Jackson, now leading the new Democratic party against Adams' (a son of a former president) National Republicans (not the same party as the GOP) won the election.
1876: Rutherford B. Hayes (R-OH) lost the popular vote to Samuel J. Tilden (D-NY) but won the electoral vote. This earned him the nickname "Rutherfraud" B. Hayes. The deciding electoral votes were cast by a certain whang-shaped southern state, and the dispute was settled by a joint congressional/supreme court committee who voted the votes in favor of Hayes by voting along strict party lines. Hayes chose not to run again.
1888: Benjamin Harrison (R-OH) lost the popular vote to incumbent Grover Cleveland (D-NY) but lost the electoral vote. There was no controversy here. Cleveland supported lower tarrifs which were a popular issue only in southern states. The South voted overwhelmingly for Cleveland, but Harrison won more states but by smaller margins. Nevertheless, Cleveland defeated Harrison (the grandson of a former president) in 1892 for his second non-consecutive term.
2000: You know what happened.
No descendant of a former President has ever won the popular vote or served more than one term. No president who has had his descendant also become president has served more than one term (poor William H. Harrison served 31 days).
Note that I didn't mention 1800, because the electoral system was different then and not completely analogous to the modern system.
Since there were only 4 times historically when the electoral college did its job, if you consider it an undemocratic institution, it really doesn't make much of a difference.
However if you don't like the electoral college, you must really hate the Senate, which is of course far more important to running the country.
In order to abolish the electoral college, one need only 3/4 of the states to approve. To abolish the Senate, all states must consent.
Fat chance of that. And that's the way I think it should be. There is no part of the Constitution that I think is objectionable except for the 3/5 of all other persons bit, but that has been superseded.
Of course you are right that the election of the Senate is open to the same criticism, that all states are considered equal regardless of their population. And I agree that there is no chance of anything changing, except that some more states might drop the winner-take-all system of appointing the Electoral College.
Whether the system is "democratic" seems to be debatable; it depends what you mean by democracy. Fred and Mike say that America is not a democracy, but I am inclined to think that in some sense it is. Besides, Tocqueville thought so in 1831!
It is not a traditional democracy by the Athenian definition.
Maine and Nebraska have a system whereby electors are chosen by congressional districts, and 2 electors are chosen statewide (you only vote once though). In theory, one can say that Wyoming, Vermont, Alaska, North Dakota, South Dakota, Idaho, Delaware and Montana work the same way (they all have only 1 Representative and thus no congressional districts).
BTW, I thought it was called the electrical college.
how re-volting.
The Constitution says otherwise. The electoral college protects the system from being dominated by thew interests of high-density population centers and states. We already pay far too much attention to the needs of California and Florida as opposed to Nebraska or Nevada.
You are right that the "winner takes all" system is not mandated by the Constitution. Each state can decide for itself.
How stupid are you? We've already established (in a post by American Pig, responding to Train Dude) that there aren't even that many voters in the entire Florida Panhandle.
Even though Pigs went through this a year ago, and you'll probably ignore this again and spout the same lies a year later.
According to the 2000 Census, there were 671,445 persons aged 18-years or older in the 10 Florida counties in the Panhandle.
According to your logic, fully a 3rd of these people waited at home for the last of 15 or so hours that the polls are open, and immediately decided not to go when the TV told them not to. Does that make any sense to you?
In any event, only 180,221 registered voters in all 10 counties did not turn out to vote. This comprises 67.32% turnout among registered voters, consistent with Florida statewide statistics of 70% for that election that year.
2000 Florida CST election resultsCountyPopulation over 18BushGoreOtherTurnoutRegisteredAbsent
Bay112575386371885020335952064.179274933229Calhoun999628732155228525672.6672341978Escambia2251397302940958715412114170.8417100449863Gulf1043735462389630656566.1699233358Holmes1427949852154402754173.09103172776Jackson363069138686814641747072.87239736503Okaloosa128365520431692425457151264.2411132039808Santa Rosa86474362481279516415068465.167777827094Walton318061217656377241853765.86281449607Washington1606849832796574835358.18143586005Totals6714452376581115261739536657967.32546800180221
Sources: United States Bureau of Census, Census 2000: American Factfinder; Florida Department of State: Election Statistics, 2000. Care of American Pig Subtalk Post 493013
Look at who you are responding to, you answered your own question. It's hopeless, Mr C. Bits has turned to the dark side and can never turn back. He's been lost to supply side economies, corporate welfare, and their republican ilk.
This assumes a nearly 100% turnout. Almost completely impossible
Also remember that that number is ONLY of people over 18, it does not include convicted felons, non-citizens who cannot vote or people who aren't registered to vote.
And how many other Republican voters didn't vote because your liberal networks prematurely called the state for Gore even though his lead at the time was less than 3%.
Irrelevant. When the West Coast polls were still open, the election was still up for grabs.
the liberal networks refused to call Georgia, North Carolina and Kentuckly for Bush at the same time even though he was leading by at least seven points in all three states.
Being 7 points in the lead means nothing if only 20% of the precincts are reporting. Still, how much of an effect do you think this had?
*FDLE-- Florida Department of Law Enforcement (Florida's State Police)
ALLOWED TO VOTE?
Name one thing that prevented them from voting? Did the liberal media go to the polls and forcibly close them?
I DO NOT see any difference between any mainstream media networks, including FOX. When you conservatives say you hate things liberal, does that mean all things left-wing, or does that mean you despise the ideology of liberalism in general, and support socialism or fascism? Please be specific when you mention these terms, as I get confused 8-)
The car was designed by Dr. Ferdinand Porsche, not Hitler (I'd almost like to see a car designed by that idiot). And last I heard there was some questioning as to whether the design was actually commissioned by Hitler or if it was something Porsche just pulled out of his wastepaper basket in response to Hitler's command.
I certainly have seen plenty of Jewish people driving Porsches, so why is a VW off limits and a Porsche kosher, so to speak?
Peace,
ANDEE
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Looked like minoriphobes used trumped up environmental concearns to block the rail line. What a pack of ass holes.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Fall
When pluralizing something that ends with a y one drops the y and replaces it with an IES except when they y follows an e.
As Killer and I stated, NIMBY is not a word but an acronym. The letters in an acronym NEVER CHANGE because one does not spell nor “pluralize” an acronym. Just face it, Pig – you are wrong on this score.
Does anyone remember what posh meant?
AP could make an argument that nimby (lower case) has completed its transition, therefore the -ies plural is applicable.
John
This is probably as much an urban legend as A rigid, B limp.
AEM7
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What are they drunk???
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#How
P.S.: What does NIMBY stand for??
Isn't that in the FAQ yet?
I hope that was meant as a joke. Otherwise, select the words in parentheses.
(Frequently Asked Questions - link)
Commuter rail systems, Pratt said, failed in cities such as Detroit and Philadelphia, in part because of the cities economic woes and also because they were 'borderline too small' to support commuter rail in the first place.
I hadn't heard that commuter rail had failed here in Philly. Funny this is, earlier in the same article we read:
Passenger rail has succeeded with tens of thousands of daily riders in places such as Los Angeles, Chicago, Boston, Dallas, San Diego and Philadelphia.
So which is it?
Mark
Morning rush: Full trains, standee's, and some of those express trains on the R3 and R5, woo boy, it's actually exciting.
Off-peak: service still all not to bad compared to some bus systems in other area's.
Almost always on time, faster than driving, comfortable accomodations, and unlike driving, i get to my destination the same time everyday(I thought people liked this feature, how else can you explain corporate homogenousness and franchises).
Haven't been on anything else that I liked and would stand by as much as their RR, I wonder what their defination of a success is? :)
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Houston
After all I think Houston is imitating their neighbor DART, which has to be one of the most overengineered* LRT systems in exsistance!
*Not that that's a bad thing, I just hope they fufill all their projected extentions and use all that they have built effectively
Mark
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AH, not if the NIMBIES have anything to say about it.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#NewHampshire
Only in the most dire traffic jams will people abandon their cars for a bus. The only time I am familar with is in Seattle, when the eastside building explosion reduced the two floating bridges across Lake Washington to parking lots between 6 and 10 am in the morning and 4 and 7 pm at night. Then KC Metro managed to get bus lanes across the bridges and people actually began giving up their cars for a bus ride into the 3rd Ave BusTunnel every morning. Now those buses are packed and they're looking to run a monorail across the northern bridge, SR520, to provide near-heavy rail capacity to the people in Bellevue and it's vicinity.
It has been demonstrated time and again in the west, people who are caught in traffic everyday will respond positively to a rail line that enables them to leave their car parked in the garage for the week. Yet as I said above, I am only familiar with one instance where people actually abandoned their cars for a bus system.
And also you never refuted my statement that people will leave their cars for buses, please name one case outside Seattle in the early 1990s where people left their cars en masse as seen with upstart transit agencies like Metrolink, DART, and TriMet.
Also, when people are commuting to work, it's generally one person per car, at the most 2. So atleast 25 cars off the road for one bus. Seems like an improvemtn to me.
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Geez, this week's episode is really MBTA heavy.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#MBTA
Commuter Rail: 30% of daily passenger traffic
Funding: 80%
"Studies of how to improve transit system": 0 passenger traffic
Funding: 15%
Inner-city Transit: 70% daily passenger traffic
Funding: 5%
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Geez, this week's episode is really MBTA heavy.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Fill
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::slaps forehead:: Its like EVERYBODY is a NIMBY these days.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Town
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As they discovered after a theft at SMS, the people who do this are not usually Railfans, but long distance truckers who want distinctivr airhorns.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12082003.shtml#Thieves
Link
I'm glad the MTA's people say they can stay within $6.3 Billion the rest of the way. They have lots of credibility...
To paraphrase Senator Everett Dirksen, "A billion here, a billion there, soon we'll be talking about real money."
Arti
Arti
Arti
But with the nearly unbearable crush of auto and truck traffic...see Canal or 34th Streets on any midday...maybe it's time to revisit the concept.
Possibly we could connect the Queens Midtown and Lincoln Tunnels, with provision for a crosstown subway/trolley line, and ramps up to a main avenue or two?
I've seen crazier ideas.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don't see any need for extra ramps to Manhattan.
Arti
This you cannot do...
You need trucks to bring in such things as food, Pepsi, toilet paper, pencils and all other accuterments of daily living.
The CARS we do NOT need. ELIMINATE ALL CARS.
Trucks are run by business people, who can all sit down at a table with a map of every on-street parking place, and the can negeotiate with each other as to who may park where and when. It is no more complicated than assigning airliners to gates at the terminal.
Trucks and Taxi-cabs ought to be the only private vehicles operating in the CBD.
Elias
On the car situation, not everyone can take public transit, however,most can. Those who can should.
Mark
On the car situation, not everyone can take public transit, however,most can. Those who can should.
Why the heck *can't* everybody take public transportation???????
Out here public transportation is *only* for handicapped people!
It is certainly easier and safer than taking your own vehicle, especially in such a crowded city.
The CBD is not like the suburbs... in the city (CBD) you do not pile into a car to go to the supermarket or to K-Mart. Almost any market that you would go to *can* deliver for you.
And as I have said, I do make exception for people who *actually* live in that part of the city.
Elias
Elias
Yes, but IINM, it is also a technical designation having things to do with federal programs and census.
In Manhattan the CBD ends at 59th Street or 60th Street or something like that, and that is a city zoning thing that prohibits business (ie big corporate businesses) north of that line. The only businesses north of the CBD in Manhattan are "residential support" businesses, or other small businesses.
Elias
The Trucks cannot (as I have expounded elsewhere) go away. All private cars must be excluded from the CBD.
Rather than putting tolls on the Free Bridges, I'd simply CLOSE THEM.
Brooklyn Bridge = Bus, LRV and Pedestrian use only.
Manhattan Bridge = Subway, Bus and Taxi rush hours, Trucks included non-rush.
Williamsburg = Subway, Bus and Taxi rush hours, Trucks included non-rush.
Queensboro = Bus, LRV and Pedestrian only rush hours, Trucks and Taxis included non-rush.
Brooklyn Battery Tunnel = $10.00 all vehicles (no tractor trailers) 0500-1100 hours. $5.00 non rush, $20 for tractor-trailers.
Queesn Midtown Tunnel = $10.00 all vehicles (no tractor trailers) 0500-1100 hours. $5.00 non rush, $20 for tractor-trailers.
Holland Tunnel = $20.00 all vehicles (no tractor trailers) 0500-1100 hours. $10.00 non rush, $50 for tractor-trailers.
Lincoln Tunnel:
0500-0600 4 Lanes East, 2 West - Busses Only Eastbound.
0600-0900 6 Lanes East, 0 West - Busses Only
0900-1000 4 Lanes East, 2 West - Busses Only Eastbound.
1000-1100 4 Lanes East, 2 West - Busses and Trucks only Eastbound.
1100-1300 4 Lanes East, 2 West - No Restrictions.
1300-1500 2 Lanes East, 4 West - No Restrictions.
1500-1600 2 Lanes East, 4 West - Busses and Trucks only Westbound.
1600-2000 0 Lanes East, 6 West - Busses Only
2000-2100 2 Lanes East, 4 West - Busses and Trucks only Westbound.
2100-0500 3 Lanes East, 3 West - No Restrictions.
Geo. W. Bridge = No Changes.
60th Street = Restricted Access south of 60th Street, Permits Required.
Elias
Good Question. Maybe GWB or HT? Maybe I can only do 5 in and 1 out, but I had asked the people at Martz, and they layup their busses in Manhattan between runs, of course they *do* have outbound busses at that hour.
OK, I'll leave it up to the varrious bus companies to decide this.
Elias
50 bux for the rigs? Eh, maybe 15.
Holland is the one at the end of canal, rite? If so, this should definately have a bus lane.
Check it out... they are ALREADY paying about $36.
Interesting in concept, but different in operation. Follow Chicago's lead on this.
Existing ground level streets remain as they are "Trucks Only" New streets above these, (with new sidewalks and with new enterances into buildings) creates a new upper level as if *that* were ground level.
Heck, in some places in Chicago stteets are three levels deep!
But according to my plan, the new streets would be pedestrians and LRV only, I'd still keep all cars out of the CBD.
Elias
Moses also proposed a Mid Manhattan Expressway in the 1960's to connect the Midtown and Lincoln Tunnels - to run along the south side of 30th Street. Unlike the Lower Manhattan Expressway this one never got beyond preliminary planning. Again, the potential loss of jobs, taxes, and businesses caused the proposal to die. One legacy of it is the Lincoln Tunnel's connections to 30th Street, which would have been the ramp to the Mid Manhattan Expressway.
In my humble opinion, both ideas were bad in the 1960s and would be even worse ideas now.
Also, to go across on 34th Street, you'd have to drop the roadway down about 5-6 stories, wouldn't you? I once saw a drawing of the area beneath Herald Square -- the intertwining of the IND, BMT, PATH, LIRR/Amtrak, utility lines, water tunnels, etc. was incredible. I think you'd have to go all the way below that, which seems pretty deep for a 1-2 mile stretch of roadway.
I'm sure you'd have similar problems along Canal St -- though, likely not to the same degree.
CG
Right. Of all the places to try to run people through, Manhattan is the worst. No matter how many lanes it is, such an highway would be overwhelmed by the number of drivers for whom it were to become the best route.
The Access to the Region's Core study included an alternative for running freight trains through Midtown, by adding a freight tunnel from New Jersey through Midtown to Sunnyside Yards in addition to the passenger tracks. It turned it down.
One of the big sources of roadway congestion in NYC is all
of the truck traffic which _has_ to enter the city because there
is no easy way to get freight cars into the city from Jersey
and points south. To me this should be a lot higher priority
than, say, a downtown transit hub or running the LIRR into GCT.
I'd rather get the people on trains than get the freight on trains to make more room for people in cars.
ELIMINATE CARS!
You must have the trucks, local goods must arrive and depart. They cannot do this by train.
But there is no reason why on God's green earth that ANYBODY should beable to drive a car into Manhattan. (Save for those who ACTUALLY Live there.)
Elias
That's a lot of nonsense. Much as I love trains, there are many trips it is not feasible to make without a car. I live in Riverdale. It's a very long bus/subway ride to where I live. Metro-North is a very long walk or requires a parking fee, and only goes to 42d St. Off-peak, the service is only hourly. The express bus only goes to 34th st, only on certain avenues. If I have to go shopping, lugging a lot of packages, especially on a weekend or evening when traffic is less; or the the theater at night, when bus/train service is chancy; or to a doctor's appointment on the upper east or west side, I will often drive. I pick times when I won't be in rush hour traffic. I often get a parking space on the street at a meter or even for free, depending on "alternate side" rules. I get there usually quicker than transit, with essentially door-to-door service. No transit system can be all things to all people.
And who the heck is going to go shopping for things that they cannot carry anywhere south of 60th Street? And shops that do sell big items also deliver!
Heck, I lived in brooklyn, and never owned a car. A&S always delivered.
What's the Big Deal!
Elias
I managed quite well, thank you.
I do not think that you can convince me that a private car is needed in the CBD. If you had many packages to cary, such as you describe, I'd hire a cab. I am not tossing the cabs out. Yeah a cab costs something. But then so does a car!
Elias
Another example. My son works in Manhattan, lives in Brooklyn. I was going to visit him for dinner one day. He called and asked if I could swing by in the car to a florist in E. 28th St. He had bought a large plant - probably too big to fit in a cab. Since I have a station wagon, it would fit. So I drove into Manhattan in PM rush hour. Since I was going against the flow, I got there in 20 minutes. I pulled up to the florist, we loaded the car, and we took off to Brooklyn. I'll be damned if I'm going to have to pay extra for shipping or trucks or taxis just to satisfy some Utopian dream of a carless city.
Don't tell me he should've bought the plant in Brooklyn. It was near his office, it was on clearance, he got a deal.
Mark
Refer to original post:
>>In the 1960s the community (soon to be known as Soho) succeeded --justifiably--in scotching a mid-Manhattan Expressway<<<
RobertMosesFantalk?
and
>>>Possibly we could connect the Queens Midtown and Lincoln Tunnels, with provision for a crosstown subway/trolley line, and ramps up to a main avenue or two?<<<
Such a tunnel could also be adapted for rapid transit use.
I would urge you to read the post next time.
www.forgotten-ny.com
This is not so.
*I* can design LRV (Trolley) systems that will work and can be accepted as a part of New York.
My major premise:
1) is the EXCLUSION of private cars from the CBD.
2) Close Broadway to all traffic: Pedestrians and LRV only.
3) No-Parking all Avenue Right Lanes, Replace with LRV.
4) LRVs are three cars long, double desker units.
5) LRVs are all free.
6) LRVs are handled on the Brooklyn and Queensboro Bridges.
Trains Busses and Subways bring commuters into the city.
Buses and Free LRVs circulate people in the CBD.
Elias
Why do you need buses? You've got LRTs, buses would be wholly superflous.
4) LRVs are three cars long, double desker units.
4. [I Have yet] to see a bi-level LRV. I think running them in single level consits should work fine
Heck, it's New York, if this were to be done, it might make sense for the MTA to build their own LRTs of their own design for the operation. But I agree, it might be a better idea to just get some off the shelf single level low floor LRTs and run them instead. Even in that case, NYC could still build their own cars under license to the original manufacturer.
Also here are some, as you put it, bi-level LRT operators (assumming of course that Trams and LRT's are the same, and I see very few differences):
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?23029
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?10363
5) LRVs are all free.
5. Impossible. There should be some small fee, say, 75 cents to a dollar
Nothing is impossible, especially when it comes to fare control. If you stop thinking of public transit as a social nicety and instead think of it as an imperative utility for a city, then there is no reason why it should not be free. If the island is devoid of cars, and the only ways to get around are the LRT and the subway, then it would make sense to make the LRT free, it'll leave room on the subways for people from the other boroughs. If you really want, do POP with an onboard TVM feeding out tickets at an elevated price (say $2.50 for 2 hours) and curb side machines selling tickets for a $1.50. Would a 75 cent fare even cover the cost of collecting the fare? Also how would you collect the fare, fareboxes? fare controlled platforms? POP? Or something else?
6) LRVs are handled on the Brooklyn and Queensboro Bridges.
6. And the Willy B!!!
I won't argue with that, perhaps the Willy B should be in the MOS-2 section of this plan, with MOS-1 including a refurbishing of the trolley terminal at the foot of the Willy B's manhattan side, as well as provision made for trolleys to be switched between the terminal and the manhattan through routes.
There's LIRR and NJT for that! Why do you want to fill up the streets after they've been emptied? Are you working for the highway lobby?
I'd have to question the sanity of any person who subjected themselves to a bus trip from Far Rock to NY, or, worse, Morristown. Both places have adequate rail service, and Morristown has commuter rail operations that most suburbs can only look longingly at.
Also NJT and MTA would never run a joint bus line, that just would never happen. The most you can hope for is some more express buses and such comming from rail-poor areas of NJ and the usual expresses that MTA runs to be increased slightly. However, if LRT's run without car interference, then they could come very close to beating the running time of buses that run the express routes, especially if FDR drive were to remain open to cars.
I was merely using Morristown as an example as you obviously fail to understand. Either way, a out of city bus down that route to somewhere in NJ is perfect. flatbush-manhattan bridge-canal st-holland tunnel-nj is pretty much a straight shot on the same street.
Plus, what the hell do you mean, fill up the streets? What, just cuz it's a bus means it's gonna fill up the streets? What the hell organization are you from? Also, with more public transit, means less cars on the road, which means travel times are shortened.
Also, why does it have to be MTA/NJT? I didn't even think about MTA wen reading anything on this thread. MTA would probably never go into something like this. It would probably be another transit agency.
Then I am hereby calling you insane, congratulations!
I take Greyhound everywhere
Those run on highways. Also Greyhound was a partner with Yellow Coaches and General Motors in National City Lines, which destroyed countless billions of dollars of our transit infrastructure in the 1940s and 50s so that people would buy cars. NCL's sucess allowed the highway lobby to be formed, thus, yes, in my estimation, you are working for the highway lobby.
I was merely using Morristown as an example as you obviously fail to understand.
And I aparantly still fail to understand because you have not provided any reason whatsoever for New York to Morristown bus service which would be redundant with NJT rail service here.
Plus, what the hell do you mean, fill up the streets? What, just cuz it's a bus means it's gonna fill up the streets?
It's a bus, filling up the street is exactly what it's going to do. Brother Elias has just proposed a plan by which the streets of Manhattan would be cleared in a way never seen before. However, you are immediately taking space that should be given to the LRTs that will benefit the people of Manhattan who are losing their ability to have cars close to them and giving it to buses carrying people from outside Manhattan who have every right to own a car and for whom the subways are a much better bet.
What the hell organization are you from?
Actually I am not a member of any organization as yet. I was thinking about joining the Monorail Society, as well as the Philadelphia Chapter of ERA or the NRHS. I also was thinking about joining DVARP or NARP, but DVARP mostly deals with SEPTA commuter railroads, in which I really have little intrest, and NARP just seems to be propping up Amtrak as the one and only passenger rail operator, which I disagree with.
Also, with more public transit, means less cars on the road, which means travel times are shortened.
Well yes, but these buses would be traveling right along with the many cars present on NJ and NY outside Manhattan roads, so they would be very slow once they got there. Thus it would be a better idea to focus on rail travel as opposed to buses, especially those that would leave the borough of manhattan. The Q35 or whatever can still cross into manhattan on the queensboro, but it's a bad idea to run express routes into manhattan from the outer edges of the city 'just because we can'.
Yea, it's better to focus on rail travel, but rail travel can not take you everywhere. Just like freight trains take goods to a certain area where trucks make the local deliveries, passenger trains go to a certain area where people transfer to buses.
LD buses are needed as well. OK, just b/c you feel like being a pain in the ass, lets change the bus route. Rockaways-Flatbush av-manhattan bridge-downtown-lincoln tunnel-passaic-patterson. OK? Tell me how to get a one seat ride from Brooklyn to Paterson? Hell, give me a one seat ride from downtown! There is none!!! Face it, LD buses are needed.
Take Bonanza for example. They operate from Danbury to PABT(and other locations). The routing parallels the NH line of MN. It's still very successful. Greyhound to Stamford and Bridgeport from NYC is also very successful.
I take it you have never been to Hong Kong...
OK imagine what I am looking at. Start with a low-riding LRV, but remember that at intersections, trucks as tall as 12 feet or more have to pass under the wires. 16' wire clearance.
The convergence of these two requirements, suggests the posibility of double decker cars.
As far as the price goes...
Yes, Free!
First most people already have a free transfer from the subway,
second you'd have to hire a collector for each car, AND restrict the number of doors that could be used for entry.
FREE means only the one operator, and boarding at all doors.
Elias
Also, I forgot about Hong Kong. Saw the bi-level trolleys in Rush Hour 2, lol.
I take it you have never been to Hong Kong...
OK imagine what I am looking at. Start with a low-riding LRV, but remember that at intersections, trucks as tall as 12 feet or more have to pass under the wires. 16' wire clearance.
The convergence of these two requirements, suggests the posibility of double decker cars.
As far as the price goes...
Yes, Free!
First most people already have a free transfer from the subway,
second you'd have to hire a collector for each car, AND restrict the number of doors that could be used for entry.
FREE means only the one operator, and boarding at all doors.
Elias
Better still, the Brooklyn-Battery tunnel, so that Red Hookers errrmmm people from a part of Brooklyn West of the F Line and the Gowanus Canal can get a nice quick ride into Manhattan without going through downtown Brooklyn first.
That would be an interesting experiment. Any opinions on whether an extension of the M22 to Red Hook would work?
There is absolutely no sentiment anyplace in Manhattan or the rest of the city for a Mid-Manhattan Expressway. How much land would you have to take for something like that?
Or for light rail
Well, there goes my experiment in posting efficiency.
I agree. That portion of that thread belongs in "SubTalk Stupid".
Possibly we could connect the Queens Midtown and Lincoln Tunnels, with provision for a crosstown subway/trolley line, and ramps up to a main avenue or two?]
Except for that trolley remark, Robert Moses would love you. He once stated in a TV interview that cities exist solely as conduits for suburban traffic, and are not entitled to seek or achieve their own viability.
Instead of building MORE ROADS, they ought to CLOSE ROADS AND STREETS.
The rush hour Lincoln Tunnel ought to be ALL 6 LANES in the rush direction, and be restricted to BUSSES ONLY.
It is easier to build great parking facilities in the Meadowlands and to bus people the rest of the way than to build one inch of new highway in the CBD.
Eliminate all traffic from Broadway, and make it a pedestrian / LRV mall.
Eliminate all right-curb parking on all Avenues, and use the lane for LRVs.
Build public transit, and eliminate cars.
Elias
We seriously NEED public transit, and we should follow Europe's example. There should also be a law restricting families to only ONE car, powered by hydrogen, and to create a no-build zone at city limits so that suburban sprawl can be stopped. Eventually, over time, people will be persuaded to abandon their suburban communities and move back into the urban centers. Yes, this sounds crazy, but it's either this or the human race dies out due to destroying their own environment.
This is the MOST unrealistic and UNCONSTITUTIONAL suggestion. It cann never happen.
My idea to colde the CBD to cars may seem unrealistic to some, but not to others, and it certainly is NOT unconstitutional, especially since we do make provisions for people who *actually* live in lower Manhattan.
Elias
Very likely, but there are worthy sentiments behind the suggestion. There is nothing in the Constitution to prevent legislators from exacting payment from those who damage the environment, and that includes most of us. Let the polluters pay!
Yea, I can agree to this. I'd object to using the tax code to accomplish this. I'll not go into ideas on taxation. If you need a fee to be assessed for environmental damage, then call it such, and not a tax credit for not poluting or for polution abaitment. People will just hide their money in any tax holes that you create, and it will serve neither the budget nor the enviromement.
Elias
Main "kink" is, that hydrogen doesn't exist in nature.
Arti
Gasoline is very flammable, too. Can you imagine the kind of disaster a zeppelin filled with 93-octane would produce?
The problem with the Hindenburg was that there was so much hydrogen...much more than any car would ever carry, plus the fact that the skin was poorly grounded against static electrcity (which probably ignited the blaze), and on top of that the fact that that same skin bore reflective paint containing powdered aluminum...rocket fuel, basically. For all of these reasons, plus modern technologies which make handling pressurized hydrogen much safer, make comparing the safety of a modern hydrogen fuel-cell car to the Hindenburg and not very informative exercise.
As Arti said, the problem is producing hydrogen. Separating elemental hydrogen (H2) from hydrogen-containing compounds, like water, requires a good deal of energy in the first place. What's more, many schemes propose to separate hydrogen from methane, according to the chemical reaction:
CH4 + O2 --> 2 H2 + CO2
As you can see, this produces carbon dioxide (CO2), the green house gas we're trying to avoid producing in the first place! It's obstacles like this that have to be overcome before hydrogen becomes a viable energy source.
Mark
Oh, the humanity!
What's interesting about the Hindenburg is that despite the extremely severe fire that resulted, most of the people onboard got out safely.
That's not to say hydrogen isn't dangerous, it is, it was just given a bad wrap. CNG, LNG, and many of the new 'alternative fuels' are every bit as explosive as hydrogen, but because they don't have imagery like the hindenburg attached to them. People feel no danger riding in a CNG bus, and some even drive LNG cars, but they might frown on a hydrogen combustion or fuel cell bus, since thats dangerous! Perhaps once some depot worker takes a cigarette break in an inopertune location (like next to the CNG pumps), and some bus depot goes up in a fireball we'll we won't have the disparity of imagery between the two fuel sources.
The Hindenburg
I"m not sure if my memory is right about this, but I think I heard that the color was being wrong for a fire fueled mostly by hydrogen. Burning hydrogen is an eerie pink-orange-colored flame, that you'll never mistake for anything else.
Mark
Sure, in a perfect world, but till the present order changes, the $$$$ is with autos and the city will continue to accommodate them. The mayor just lfted the one-occupant car ban, so the streets will be more choked than ever.
The idea should be to get these cars someplace where they won't be killing pedestrians or deafening them with their noise. The Mosesian idea of building more expressways obviously failed. I'm looking for a way to reroute cars and trucks that are passing through the island...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Da Hui
Look at the grill behind the rear wheel, that brown stuff is probably some 500 or so leaves stuck to it.
Thus Buses Suck
NCL Sucks
Trolleys, LRVs, Trams, Streetcars or whatever, rule!
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
He's talking about this: http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/worktrains/PDRM3176
The Sperry Rail Service cars are usually there to check the rails and make sure they're straight, in gauge and so on. There's all kinds of instrumentation on the insides to measure lateral forces and such. It's basically like the Track Geometry Cars that NJT, LIRR, and Amtrak run. Out west the freight railroad contract Sperry to come check their tracks.
I'm not sure what NYCTA's relationship with Sperry is, if that's a NYCTA crew in the cab, or if it's a Sperry crew trained to operate on the NYCTA subway? Also, does NY contract Sperry to check their rails? Finally, why doesn't NYC just get their own track geometry vehicle?
Either way, the question has been answered.
Sperry was one of the inventors of the gyrocompass. The former Sperry plant in Lake Success, NY was home to the Secretariat of the United Nations from 1946-51.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
While I'm all for light rail, this really isn't enough to justify spending 1 billion dollars. If you were talking 20K, then we might have something.
I also think they should use some of the North Shore route but if you really want to attract riders, you'll have to run the Light Rail right by the mall.
My route would start at St George and end at the Staten Island Mall.
Light rail…by 2015? Hmm, the heavy-rail option could be restored in one year.
And what about facilities (can’t use the SIR facilities), spare-parts inventories, separation from the general railway network (the SIR is still an FRA railroad)? What about power systems (are you going to erect DC catenary on the North Shore now)? What about the high platform versus low platform situation (highs already exist on the North Shore line)? What about the fact that LRVs make things inflexible?—you can’t run a LRV down the South Shore and you won’t be able to run a heavy-rail train up the North Shore if LRT is thrown into the mix. And if the line still remains under FRA jurisdiction, LRT service will have to cease at 10 pm.
More hype, and more bad attempts to get mileage out of the dated LRT “buzzword”. LRT would be more expensive in the long run.
I suspect that ultiimately the best option might link the SIRT row (both current SIR and revived North Shore segment) to New Jersey LRT routes
I am not sure that NJ Transit plans to make their LRT network an interstate one. Besides, if there was such a link, I would still prefer the North Shore line to be heavy-rail, for the reasons I already stated, such as minimizing inventories of rolling stock and spare parts, retention of existing high platforms, non-duplication of maintenance facilities, FRA compatibility, plus general overall lower cost. I could see interchange stations between NJ LRT and North Shore service, but not actual LRT operation on the North Shore line…
I think as long as either line, a restored North Shore SIRT or the NJT Hudson-Bergen light rail line crosses the water so that passengers can transfer between the two, I'd be for it. That seems like the easiest way to connect Staten Island to the mainland, much easier than tying the SIRT to the NYC subway system. Of course, I'm sure even bringing either line into the other's state would be very complicated politically.
Mark
Not to mention that there are light rail lines with high platforms (L. A.'s Blue, Green and Gold lines, and Metrolink in St. Louis to mention a few).
not outdated American signalling techniques, along with a backwards FRA
Mind elaborating on the “signalling techniques” thereof? Besides, I’m sure that you are aware that the FRA makes it increasingly expensive to upgrade signalling, which is why only the Northeast Corridor has something like ACSES…
Besides, there are other different points about the LRT “solution” that is being proposed that makes it ridiculous. One of them is the notion that people are getting in their heads that it would somehow be part of the Hudson-Bergen LRT that is part of NJ Transit’s system—now that system uses low-platform cars. Incidentally, if one did use high-platform LRVs (such as the Siemens that LA and other cities use), the extant high platforms would still have to be modified to reach the sides of these cars whereas the current SIR cars would be the right fit…but I’m sure that goes without saying anyhow. Since the MTA will be operating this (and why wait till 2015 indeed), it only makes sense to use the heavy-rail option.
At one point wasnt there and idea for a chunnel under NY bay connecting jersey with Brooklyn onto the Old Bay Ridge track
Was an article I remember in the Daily New or Post over the summer
Elias
Anyone familar with this train?
If you go there check out the Museums Christmas MTH layout. It nice?
avid
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/MNRphoebeCars
avid.
I wonder if the restrooms will be open?
Elias
Maybe he's referring to the incomplete (but not incorrect) train designations at 49th. The W stops there too. Like it or not, lots of people still think of the Broadway BMT as the "N/R line."
Also, NYCT does not schedule any weekend suspensions on the #7 line into Manhattan when games are played at Shea Stadium in the spring or summer. So don't worry the #7 will be running to Times Square all night.
Thanks,
Julian (an R110b fan)
Last Friday I took my two grandchildern to see Santa at Macy's. The walk thru Santa Land has a new exhibit ... that's right MTH has a train layout with most of there buildings, including Jan's !
The Puppet show, one floor up, was very nice this year. PB Bear, Percey the penguin & Mrs. Claus all were part of the crowd warm up routine.
BTW, the snow Friday made the trip from Long Island a great Christmas event (we also did Rockafella Center & St. Pat's Church that afternoon).
P.S. Tip, don't go in the AM as all the local schools are visiting Santa then.
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW, was at FAO Schwarz last night before having dinner with some transportation industry colleagues.
Peace,
ANDEE
Seriously it's nice to know you get on the eight floor every now and then. I thought the MTH display was rather nice ... not as big as the CitiCorp one, but something to look forward when I do my annual Christmas routine in Mahattan.
TRUE, it IS a nice display. You shoud have seen the bitch of a time we had bringing in.
Peace,
ANDEE
It was brought in fully assembled.
They will be taking it out after Xmas, let me know if you would like to see this spectacular.
Peace,
ANDEE
The flames beneath the trolley were clearly visible from the front and side of the trolley. It was a strange sight to see. Did anyone else witness this event?
Mark
Mark
They probably do...
Mark
Sounds like the stuff busitution people love.
:-) Andrew
Unfortunately for downtown Jamaica, it's not also the 15th anniversary of the closing of the Jamaica Avenue El.
When was the last time you visited the Jamaica Center area? The area is much better off now than it has ever been, a pleasant place to shop, see a movie, workout at Ballys, get a bite to eat, or whatever you want to do.
The area seems to be improving now, but it went through many years of decline, caused at least in part by the lack of decent transit after the El closed and before Archer Avenue opened.
N Bwy
N Bwy
Oh dear, here we go with the 9/11 tragedy again..... ok, ok, wrong 9/11 tragedy... maybe the Allende coup of 1973? :-/
Maybe DH Lawrence being born (1885).
And it still is nothing when compared with it's glory days, but the loss of the el only played a small part in that.
I'll never forget the first time I went into Jamaica by myself. I was staying at my Aunt and Uncle's apartment on 178th Place. I was about 11 or 12. Even then, I had trouble deciding on which transit line to take! The bus on Hillside Avenue or the bus on Jamaica Avenue. (I think I chose Jamaica Ave) There was nothing future malls could match when it came to the interesting variety and sparkle of those stores on the avenue under the el. I particulary remember a magic shop where I got some slick tricks to play on my uncle.
This must have been around 1965 or so. I still miss that el.
True, but for 8 years as David mentioned, it could have still gone to Sutphin (allowing connection to the LIRR).
What about taking the (7) to Woodside station? That's always been there.
Or are you referring to personal experience?
Chaohwa
As for February, not only we must think about the N going over the bridge and the D returning to Brooklyn on the new West End line but between 5 and 6 AM on Monday 2/23/04, I will be at Brighton Beach for the third historic occasion.
I guess that's my way of commemorating this momentous occasion.
Who am I kidding...I didn't even know the Archer was 15.
After Myrtle, my J got REAL packed, and we ran express on the local.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Wow, 15 years?
Scary isn't it? I've been riding the subway WITH Archer just as long as I had ridden it WITHOUT Archer. Scary.
Reef Acela! Buy ALP46s!
The owners of the railroad had a fight and split up; those who left built a rival railroad which became the Atlantic City Railroad, and later the Reading. The Camden and Atlantic eventually was owned by the PRR.
NJT's Atlantic City line runs on the Camden & Atlantic from Haddonfield to Winslow Jct and on the Atlantic City Railroad from Winslow Jct to Atlantic City.
I already took my 15th anniversary rides on the Archer Avenue lines just one prior month ago on Tuesday 11/11/2003, with myself riding an R-32 "E" into Parsons-Archer, R-42 "J" trains between Parsons-Archer and 111th Street, and finally an R-32 "E" all the way to World Trade Center. For the record, I was also on the last day of regular "J" line service with the last trains to and from 168th Street-Jamaica Avenue back on Sunday 09/11/1977, and they were both silver/blue (and graffitied) R-27/30 units.
-William A. Padron
["Jamaica-Parsons Blvd."]
Was there any sort of "Farewell to the Jamaica El" ceremony?
Ironically, the very first subway fantrip that I ever on as a paying customer was the E.R.A. silver/blue R-10 excursion of Saturday, October 23, 1976, with units #3298-3231-3220-2955, and that train did go into and out of 168th Street-Jamaica Avenue too. On that trip, a photo stop was made at Sutphin Boulevard on the southbound side.
-William A. Padron
["168th St.-Jamaica"]
N Bwy
Ps: Thank godness my train doesn't go there. heehehee
For instance, the fare was 35 cents. (Quote Frank Correll: "What the hell do they expect for their lousy 35-cents? To live forever?")
Another example is the cost of crossing the Tri-boro Bridge. In the movie it was 50-cents.
How times change!
Look at these 7 pictures I took yesterday at the Spring Street I.R.T. station, one of the stations that opened up on 27 October 1904. A lot of the walls are covered with these advertisements for iPod! Is the MTA that strapped for cash? What ever happened to restoring these stations to their original appearance? I don't mind the smaller ads that are bracketed to the wall (in the newer sections), but to put these big ads up like this in an original 1904 station, well, as the title says, it's atrocious! It's an atrocity! It's a travesty! It's a crime against nature! Well...maybe not a crime against nature, but it's definitely the other two. I hope someone from the MTA reads this and tells someone to remove them, burn them, and burn the ashes! They detract from the natural beauty of the station! I hope someone goes out there and gets rid of them, because they are UGLY! They're like huge zits on a TV news reporter's face!
UGH! Who's the yutz who came up with this idea?!
The ads that used to be at Prince St were being damaged as some ripped holes into them. The ads came down and thankfully have not made a return.
Not only are they gaudy, black, and block out light, but they completely clash with the classic interior of 30th St Station. It was disgusting, however, they have now been replaced by black ads for a jewelry company, which also make the eastern end of the station extremely dark.
Everyone says to watch BBC but I find them extremely left also. Plus, I cant stand british accents, so I try not to watch/listen.
I just thank god that there is a conservative news source out there, because even the "moderate" ones lean to one side, and Fox is not an exception.
They are extremely left wing. A moderately but overtly right wing British newspaper, The Daily Telegraph, ran a column entitled "Beebwatch" for quite some time. Basically, the BBC's favourite trick is to have a "debate" with a left wing presenter, a left wing MP and the leader of a left wing pressure group. They will occasionally invite someone right wing to be thoroughly awkward to him and claim that they're objective.
Their stance can be summarised as follows:
Jew bad, Arab good
Saddam bad, Bush worse
USA bad, EU good
Government bad, Loony Left good
Taxes bad, Spending good
Budget Deficit the fault of the evil incompetent government
Abortion good, Devout RCs (except Mother Theresa) bad
Terrorists bad, Internment (eg Guantanamo Bay) worse
I-can't-believe-you-just-suggested-capital-punishment-that's-absurd-don't-you-agree-Mr-Lefty
Robert Mugabe isn't an incompetent racist terrorist dictator, but an understandable product of African nationalism against that evil evil British Empire
Having not seen BBCTV for a long while, I cant comment. However, BBC World Service News, possibly because it comes out of Bush House, away from the rest of the Beeb, to be resonably centrist, though the content is a little Britain oriented.
The World Service has suffered, but only in relatively trivial ways, like the palaver over Lilliburlero and the sack everyone with a plummy accent because we are politically correct effort.
The great thing about the World Service is it is a memento of what the BBC used to be - it's difficult to tell the difference between a 1982 and a 1997 news programme (other than one going on about the Falklands War, the other about "new" Labour).
I'm not sure whether having its own TV channel has been a good or a bad thing. I fear the rot is creeping.
I bet you read the Post, dont you?
It's strange how a word from the Latin gaudere "to rejoice" has come to mean something tasteless.
I remember the lower level of the old WTC station suffering the same indignity (campaigns for MCI come to mind), where the entire walls and pillars of the little mezzanine between the big escalators and the mezzanine with the bar, newsstands and cafe would be covered.
The good news is that its just printed vinyl, which pulls off easily when the campaign is over.
The bad news is that the adverts are boring and ugly to look at. If only there were some wit and humor.
Have you had your first visit from the RU Housing Police yet!
Obviously they havent captured the awareness level that they would like yet.
Since Apple has written a version of the Ipod host software that works on Windows, there is no reason for Windows users to switch.
Gates may have the PC market sewn up, but Microsoft is having to work hard in other areas: PlayStations are beating XBoxes, and PalmOS machines are beating Windows CE machines.
Back to the station ads. The thing about Spring Street, it is (or at least used to be) on the edge of the SoHo art distict. West of Lafayette (where the station is located) Spring St is home to many, many art galleries. South of there, on Centre St, is the old Police HQ condos. I think these ads are probably appropriate for the neighborhood's demographics and are probably well-received.
Guess a big ole billboard didn't suit their blasstid ad campaign~!
If you don't like the ad, boycott the company that's responsible for it.
Whats different here is that the medium is much bigger than previously, covering big sections of the walls. Someone in the MTA must have decided to allow this, as its a change in policy.
Unfortunately, once they allow one advertiser to do this, they have to allow others
How is our constitution outdated? You don't like our silly notions of freedom? Do us all a favor and move to China.
Of course we never had any dictators or wars where our country was invaded
Your knowledge of history is as abysmal as your knowledge of constitutional law.
The whole reason there is a United States of America is because it was previously ruled by the equivalent of a dictator: The British Parliament in which it had no say. Also, don't know about the War of 1812?
I could even include the invasion by Mexican dictator Pancho Villa of New Mexico in 1916. New Mexico was a state in 1916.
However if the MTA allowed graffiti in some places, it would not be able to restrict who makes the graffiti or what it's about.
If the MTA chooses to sell ads, it cannot choose to whom or what the subject shall be, the only thing it can do is not sell ads at all.
Probably because I own an iPod and take it with me practically everywhere I go.
If you and enough other people complain, MTA may reconsider them.
#3 West End Jeff
The next time there's an impending fare hike, and people argue against it, just be sure that you didn't complain about these ads in this thread, it WILL be used against you.
BUT.............
The ads were relatively SMALLER than those at Spring Street and
were fitted into the AD "FRAMES" along the platform.... (and werenot
running amok from knee to high pillar stance ON the walls)
BUT.............
The ads were relatively SMALLER than those at Spring Street and
were fitted into the AD "FRAMES" along the platform.... (and werenot
running amok from knee to high pillar stance ON the walls)
SHAME they couldn't do this at Spring Street....
avid
Seeds.
It's funny, but I asked about Farmer's Oval on here about four years ago, and no one had ever heard of it. Thankfully, an oldtimer finally identified where he thought it might have been.
I've seen a number of pictures of old BMT equipment captioned as being taken at Farmer's Oval, but the ballfield was not visable, just the girder bridge in the background.
Well, when a mommy tree and a daddy tree really love each other...
ah, never mind.
My question-the cars shown on opening day in the article have little pods on either side of the front, at around the belt line. These aren't present in the delivery pictures on this site. Anyone know what they are??
I belive the pods you're talking about are the ones located on either side of the cab, immediately outboard the headlights, right?
If so, those are a kind of pantograph gate, the smaller sibling of the monsters found on NYCTA subway and LIRR M7s. LACMTA doesn't need gates that can prevent a daredevil from climbing out on the anticlimber of the car and either riding there or using the end door as his personal way to beat the crowds at the legitimate doors. They do need something on the P2000s to keep a blind person from walking into the gap between cars while the train is platformed, their small pantograph gates accomplish this. I noticed that when the P2000s were run with the Sumimotos on the Blue and Green Lines they did not have them, and also, as you noted, the delivery shots of the P2000s to the Gold Line did not show them, so it's a good bet that they were added sometime between the delivery of the cars and the opening of the line. I also don't know if the P2000s operating on the Blue and Green Lines have the gates, or even if they still operate the P2000s on these lines with the opening of the Gold Line. Perhaps a more enlightened left coast subtalker could provide us with that info.
Also, does the Gold Line ever run the old Sumimotos?
What about the extension of the Gold Line out to the southwest as seen on this map? Might that still occur, despite the objections of highway lobby groups like the BRU?
Or would he require the cars to be Siemens?
I suppose it's good that rail is expanding in the LA area, but they already screwed it up.
Los Angeles lost a great chance when they bungled the extension of the blue line through downtown and created the gold line as an independent project.
Out of the 60 or shots I've taken of the Sao Paulo Metro, of the 36 that are underground on world.nycsubway.org, these were the best out of some pretty dark and/or very grainy shots. Here are some examples of what I've taken before with 800 speed film in 2001:
The photos posted here are still too grainy and there isn't enough contrast between the dark and light areas for my liking. The first photo is probably one of the best shots.
What are some ways that I can improve my shots so that the photos come out much better? Tripods are out of the question as is flash, of course.
Mark
New Scanner of slides:
I never had problems with getting clear Kodachrome 35mm shots underground. Kodachrome64 worked great with that, without a tripod. However, I now went digital. It is a bit harder to get moving digital underground photos, as many of them come out like this:
I'm getting better, but when you are used to film, it takes a while to get used to digital. Film cameras take photos faster, so i had to get used to the "delay" with digital cameras
As for flash, never use that in the subway, legal or not. The photos just won't come out good. Flash reflects off of the shiney surfaces, and without flash, the camera makes much better use out of the available light. See example below:
Same camera, same station, same 35mm print film, one with flash (above), and one without flash (below). The ones without flash come out so much better.
So do you think using Kodachrome64 is a better bet for underground shots than standard 800 speed film? Would Kodachrome64 work well for outdoor/daylight shots as well?
If possible try to stabilize your body and/or the camera as best you can to take longer exposures. It might be difficult to get the right kind of exposure with a point and shoot.
In a related photography side note, I am getting a Pentax istD for Christmas, so I am looking to sell my Canon Powershot G2 which is a year old...I also have the telephoto lens and adapter for the camera. If anyone is interested shoot me an e-mail rgrechATnycDOTrrDOTcom
Depends on what you're going for. I like shooting 3200 film, the grain looks lovely. You're pretty much going to have to accept whatever you get with a point and shoot camera; I'd avoid using one if possible. What make and model do you have? Also, if you can, scan in your negatives, not your prints. there's a lot more detail there that you can pull out in post-processing.
I took your photos and did some superfast [about a minute a piece] work on them in photoshop, just to even out the colors a bit. To give you an idea, do an Auto-Level [ctrl+shift+L] and then an Auto-Color [ctrl+shirt+B] to get you started. These automated tools don't always work, but they can help out until you learn the program a bit more. There are also a number of filters you can use to decrease grain.
AEM7
Anyone got any recommendations?
Cooool.
BTW, I WAS supposed to be in Sao Paulo right now, but I'm flying standby and I've been bumped off TWICE already since Monday because of overbooking. I'm going to try again tomorrow and hopefully the third time is the charm. So far, the only underground shots I've taken are of the ATL people mover, not the SP Metro and commuter rail like I had in mind!
Linked for the lazy
Da Hui
....say the word 'Tourist' brah.
jim
And the name, chosen from a selection of more than 3,400 "Name the Train" contest entries and subjected to extensive public-opinion research, is:
Metro.
That's the simple solution chosen by Valley Metro Rail, which wants to put an easily recognizable and even international spin on the light-rail system, Phoenix Mayor Skip Rimsza said at a news conference Wednesday to announce the new name.
Metro is a name used for rail systems around the world and in such major cities as Los Angeles; Washington, D.C.; and Paris, said Rimsza, who also serves as chairman of the light-rail board.
Rimsza also used the news conference to introduce the new CEO for the fledgling system, Richard Simonetta, former head of Atlanta's light-rail system and past chairman of the American Public Transportation Association.
The winner of the "Name the Train" contest, 32-year-old Ben Bethel of downtown Phoenix, was among several hundred people who submitted the name, but he was the first to put in his entry.
"I suggested Metro because I thought we should have a serious approach to transit and a serious name," Bethel said. "I didn't think we should have some cute little acronym."
The 22 mile light-rail system is now in the final design stage, with construction scheduled to begin in spring 2004. About 27,000 riders daily are expected to use the system, which will link the northwest Valley and East Valley with downtown Phoenix. The system is scheduled for completion in December 2006, with plans in place to expand it in the future.
Copyright 2003, azcentral.com
Metro Is Overused. and would not work with the Valley Metro and Rapid Logos on Buses.
There are so many good names, why limit themselves to such a common name? Especially when relatively nearby Houston is about to open a new LRT that already has the name Metro. It'd be like Tacoma calling it's new LRT TriMet, Tacoma Streetcar or something.
Why are transportation consultants so ^%*&^& boring and conservative these days. Bad enough equipment is beyond generic and bland (in terms of looks, performance, and everything else), now even names are...
Divide, delay and defeat.
That is the strategy being pursued by opponents to building a light-rail transit line linking Phoenix to Tempe and Mesa.
At issue is funding for portions of the already-approved light-rail system and a possible extension.
This story sure as heck doesn't sound like these people have your best interest at heart. Sounds like a self-serving scam to me. Them outsiders must love Phoenix.
Light-rail foes hope to derail May transportation decision
A sprinkler system should be installed above all of the seats on each car. As a train is approaching the last stop, the C/R will announce that all passengers should stand up quickly. Seconds later, the sprinkler system would activate, drenching anybody who is still sitting (sleeping). This method would be extremely effective in the following ways:
1) It would instill fear in any passenger feeling drowsy and they would probably not sit down in the first place.
2) Even people who don't think they'll fall asleep anyway will not sit down because the seats will be wet almost all of the time.
3) The seats will be cleaned on a much more regular basis.
4) If you connect this system to the slopes on the roof and divert all of the water, leaking will no longer be an issue.
5) During summer if someone gets a car without air conditioning, just sit down and relax until the terminal where you'll get refreshed.
Eventually, seats will become so underused that they'll be removed and train capacity will increase all the more.
I thought you were going to suggest MTA start making Soylent Green or something
This won't go for key improvements or better service. This is to fend off disaster. And it shouldn't be a surprise.
And just think, the Bush administration is doing this on a national scale.
Ray Sanchez also had a column in today's Newsday on the same theme.
Ray Sachez Column
BTW, Gute Reise is German for Good Trip...
--Mark
Ice cream sitdown contest? Never heard of this one. Can you give more details?
Koi
8th Avenue Division
A1 - 155 St, Manhattan to Atlantic Avenue, Brooklyn, 8th Ave. Local in Manhattan, Tillary St/Ashland Pl local in Brooklyn (Operates 24/7)
A2 - Gun Hill Rd, The Bronx to Stillwell Av-Coney Island, Brooklyn, 3 Ave-161 St Local in Bronx, 8th Av Express in Manhatttan, Coney Island Ave Express in Brooklyn. (Note: only operates Coney Island Express during rush hours. All other times operates as Coney Island Ave Local)
A3-Reservoir Av, Bronx to Union Tpke, Queens, Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd Express in Bronx, 8th Ave Express in Manhatttan, Tillary St/Myrtle Ave Express in Brooklyn and Queeens. (Note: Only operates as express outside of Manhatttan during rush hours.)
A4-155 St, Manhatttan to Union Tpke, Queeens, 8th Av Local in Manhatttan, Tilllary St/Myrtle Av Local in Brooklyn & Queens. (operates rush hours only)
A5-Reservoir Av, Bronx to Stilllwell Av-Coney Island, Brooklyn, M.L.K. Jr. Blvd Local in Bronx, 8th Av Local in Manhatttan, Coney Island Av Local in Brooklyn (operates rush hours only)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
7th Avenue/Broadway Division
B1 - Pelham Bay Pk, Bronx to 180 St-St Albans, Queens, Westchester Av Express in Bronx, B'way-7th Av Express in Manhattan, Flatbush Av-Eastern Pkway/Pitkin Ave Express in Brooklyn, Linden Blvd Local in Queens. (Note: operates as local in Bronx and Brooklyn on weekends and during nights.)
B2 - 261st St, Bronx to Fountain Ave, Brooklyn, Broadway-7th Av Local in Bronx and Manhattan, Flatbush Av-Eastern Pkway/Hegeman Av Local in Brooklyn (operates 24/7)
B3 - Pelham Bay Pk, Bronx to South Ferry, Manhattan, Westcher Av Local in Bronx, B'way-7th Av Local in Manhattan. (does not operate during nights)
B4 - 261st St, Bronx to Euclid Ave, Brooklyn, B'way-7th Av Express in Bronx and Manhattan, Flabush Av-Eastern Pkway/Pitkin Av Local in Broooklyn. (operates weekdays only)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Madison Avenue Division
C1 - 208th St, Bronx to 97th Av, Queens, Concourse Local in Bronx, Madison Av Express in Manhattan, Flabush Av/Fulton St Express in Brooklyn, Jamaica Av Local in Queens (only operates as Flabush/Fulton Express on weekdays, all other times, local in Brooklyn)
C2 - Edson Av, Bronx to South Ferry, Manhattan, Southern Blvd Local in Bronx, Madison Av Local in Manhattan. (operates 24/7)
C3 - Edson Av, Bronx to B'way Jct-East NY, Brooklyn, Southern Blvd Express in Bronx, Madison Av Express in Manhattan, Fulton St Local in Brooklyn. (operates weekdays only)
----------------------------------------------------------------=----
2nd Avenue Division
D1`- 233rd St, Bronx to Stillwell Av-Coney Islad, Brooklyn, Boston Rd Express in Bronx, 2nd Av Express in Manhattan, Flabush Av/Brighton Express in Brooklyn. (operates 24/7)
D2 - 241st St, Bronx to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn, White Plains Rd/Boston Rd Local in Bronx, 2nd Ave Local in Manhattan, Fulton St/Flabush Av/Brighton Local in Brooklyn (operates 24/7)
D3 - Harding Av, Bronx to South Ferry, Manhattan, Westchester Av/Boston Rd Local in Bronx, 2nd Av Local in Manhattan (operates 24/7)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
6th Avenue Division
E1 - Braddock Av, Queens to 95th St-Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, Hillside Av/Queens Blvd Express in Queens, 6th Av Express in Manhattan, 4th Av Express in Brooklyn. (operates 24/7)
E2 - 102nd-La Guardia Airport, Queens to South Ferry, Manhattan, Astoria Blvd-31st Local in Queens, 6th Av Local in Manhattan. (operates 24/7)
E3 - 230th St, Queens to Stillwell Av-Coney Island, Brooklyn, Jewel Av/Queens Blvd local in Queens, 6th Av Local in Manhattan, 4th Av/New Utrecht Av Local in Brooklyn. (operates 24/7)
E4 - 102nd St, Queens to Stillwell Av, Brooklyn, Astoria Blvd-31st St Express in Queens, 6th Av Local in Manhattan, 4th Av/New Utrecht Av Express in Brooklyn. (Operates rush hours only)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Centre Street Division
F1 - Mott Av-Far Rockaway, Queens to Wall St, Manhattan, Rockaway Express in Queens, Broadway Express in Brooklyn, Centre St Express in Manhattan. (Note: operates as local in Brooklyn and Queens during nighs.)
F2 - 69th St, Queens to Wall St, Manhattan, Flushing Av/Broadway Local in Queens and Brooklyn, Centre St Local in Manhattan. (Operates 24/7)
F3 - Beach 116th St-Rockaway Pk, Queens to Chambers St, Manhattan, Rocakaway Local in Queens, Broadway Local in Brooklyn, Centre St Local in Manhattan. (Does not operate during nights)
F4 - Broad Channel to Beach 116th St-Rockaway Park, Queens (operates 24/7)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
14th Street Division
G1 - Flatbush Av/Utica Av, Brooklyn to 8th Av, Manhattan, Flatlands Local in Brooklyn, 14th St Local in Manhattan. (operates 24/7)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
42nd Street Division
H1 - 154th St, Queens to 10th Av, Manhattan, Whitestone/Roosevelt Av Local in Queens, 42 St Local in Manhattan. (operates 24/7)
H2 - 41st Av-Bayside, Queens to 10 Av, Manhattan, Bayside/Roosevelt Av Express in Queens, 42 St Express in Manhattan. (Operates 24/7)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown Division
I1 - Woodhaven Blvd, Queens to Boro Hall, Brooklyn, Queens Blvd/Broadway Local in Queens, Union-Lafeytte Aves. Local in Brooklyn. (Operates 24/7)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sherlock
P. S. If I were a private company like the IND building in the 1930's, the lines would be different. I'll post a list of them soon.
A - Fulton St / 8av Express
207st Manhattan
Mott Av Far Rockaway (all times)
B - Central Park West Local
6AV / Brighton Express
168st Manhattan
Coney Island (all times)
C - Fulton St / 8AV /Central Park West / Concourse Local
Bedford Park Blvd
Lefferts Blvd
E - Queens Blvd
D - Concourse / Central Park West / 6AV Express
to - 205th ST
Coney Island
E - Q
Too right!
My idea is more like an extension of the BMT:
#13: 268/Hillside - all stops - Continental Av - Queens 53rd St 8th Av Express - 14/8 - all stops via Cranberry Tunnel - rise to recapture BMT Fulton St El
#7: Idlewild Airport - Van Wyck - then as #13 and Franklin/Brighton Line
#16 and #17: Continental Av - Queens 53rd St 8th Av Lcl - curves to recapture BMT 14th St Line
#18 Lafayette Av - Hunts Pt Av - 163 - 3rd Av - Willis Av - 1st Av Exp - Houston St - Reid Av - Utica Av
#19 149/3 - 1st Av Lcl - Chambers St
Also there'd be a lot more lines in Queens (I'll post these when I get round to them).
It's JFK
We're talking about building the IND better - when the IND was being built was WAY over 30 years ago.
Idlewild opened in 1948.
Here is MY 2004 COMPREHENSIVE service plan:
A: 207th Street to Lefferts Blvd via Local, Airtrain extension to Rockaway Blvd, Rockaway Tresle abandoned, Elevated Busway through Rockaways to avoid dreadful Rockaway traffic.
B: Abandoned so the Grand Concourse can be depressed and converted into a fully controlled access highway. The toll will be $25 and it will only be open to Scarsdale residents, or those with property in the Hamptons.
C: Full duplicate of the A line, but operators will have the freedom to choose their own stops; conductors will still announce the skipped stops as if the train is stopping.
D: This line will be placed on Academic Probation
F: This line will be forced to pull up its grades. Not the brightest bulb in the bulb box, it will only make it to C. To further confuse people, it will use the same colored bullet and rolling stock as the C.
E: The E-line will become just that, an E-line. The entire route would be replaced with heavy duty fiber optic cables. To make up for the loss of transportation, telepods will be placed at each former station. Users are warned to be afraid, be very afraid.
G: This line will be flooded with water and used as the 4th City Water Tunnel. But to counter protests, it will only be filled halfway and venice-style gondolas will provide service.
J/Z: Each car will become a studio for producing very loud RAP music. Special equipment will make sure that the train is loudest when passing by the windows of people sound asleep.
L: This line will be exported to Chicago
M: Confusing it for a large candy that melts in your mouth and not in your hand, a monster will eat it. Changing the color to an unnatural green only makes the monster hungrier for it.
N: This train will run from Coney Island, running local to 59th and express from there to 57th Street over the bridge. All of the stops will be renovated, but for some Sunny Summer Sunday specials it won't matter since they will run express all the way to the beautifully restored Coney Island terminal. The other lines will not be allowed into Coney Island.
Q: Retires. This forces the 007 train to go to R for gadgets.
R: Replaces Q as the supply depot for the Flushing line.
S: The Franklin Avenue Shuttle is rebuilt in diamond-encrusted platinum. The other shuttles are irrelevant.
V: Is rerouted onto the Lexington Avenue line. Rolling stock remains the same.
W: Is re-elected
1: Reassigned to Land Mobile
2: The plumbing breaks, turning the #2 into a putrid cesspool
3: No, that was the 6! the 3 will come out 22 years later.
4: The Lexington Avenue line will be replaced with an underground busway. 40-foot suburban-style low floor busses will be used, they will run at 20 minute intervals in two lanes.
5: See 4
6: Because of the loss of the Lexington line, it will be replaced with street running along Lexington with both tracks using active traffic lanes. Lexington will remain a one way street for cars with all lanes open.
7: Will get overrun by rednecks. All of the kids with purple hair, queers with AIDS, dudes who got out of jail for the fourth time and 20-year old moms with four kids will be lynched.
9: Since skip-stop service is reviled, this line will instead be put to good use as a moving homeless shelter.
A reference to the reason why there is no "Channel 1" on a standard television set?
Great, GREAT obscure reference!
Is your mind really that limber for it to come up with tons of tightly-written satire at a moment's notice, or is it the result of years of reading certain patterns of posts and your finally being able to put responses into words?
Must be the missing yellows.
C: Full duplicate of the A line, but operators will have the freedom to choose their own stops; conductors will still announce the skipped stops as if the train is stopping.
Oh, so you're not proposing any change to the C.
They're also along Liberty Avenue.
Take a Q112 bus from Jamaica to Ozone Park, and you'll see a lot of them, especially under the el!
Wow, I didn't think any of those 2-aspect traffic signals still exisited in NYC this day. I always thought the red/green aspect (in lieu of a yellow light) was funny when I was a kid. (though my mom told me that back in the day it went straight from green to red, and the other direction turned green at the same time, after a bunch of accidents, they came up with the combined red/green)
Speaking of Liberty Av, does anyone remember in East New York when they had signals at every other intersection on Liberty and there were signs at the non signalled intersection "obey signal at next block" or something to that effect? Also, on the cross streets w/out signals, you had to look down Liberty Av and proceed when the Liberty signal turned red. They still had these when I left NYC in the mid-70s.
I don't know if I'm imagining this, but does anyone remember there being "missing yellow" lights under the Jamaica El back in the early 80's. I thought I remembered driving with my father under the el (don't remember if it's the now gone section or the still in use section), and there only being "red-green" traffic lights. Anyone else remember this?
Sherlock
Sherlock
Church Avenue Line: Western terminal would be 9th Avenue L/L at 38th Street. Eastern terminal either (1) Rockaway Ave./Broodale Hospital or (2) Linden Blvd at Rockaway Ave. or Pennsylvania Ave. Obviously this would replace the B49 bus route...freeing up already congested Church Avneue to cars and trucks (making deliveries only).
Stops from West to East: (1) MacDonald Ave. (tranfer to the F); Coney Island Ave.; E. 18th St. (tranfer to the Q); Nostrand Ave. (tranfer to 2/5); Albany Ave.; Utica Ave.; Kings Hwy-Ralph Ave.; Linden Blvd-Rockaway Pkwy. (last stop Brookdale Hospital). Note that after Kings Hwy-Ralph Ave. the line then makes a slight right turn and runs under Linden. Optional Eastern terminal: Pennsylvania Avenue which would include a stop at Rockaway Ave., and Sneidiker Ave. (transfer to the L at New Lots Ave.).
How does it sound?
Guess you meant the B35 on Church Ave. I wonder if they still run bunched up 3-4 buses together like they did in the 70s.
One more question: besides lack of passengers, did the LIRR also consider the possibility of lawsuits as one of the reasons for closing those stations? After reading the postings about people suing for anything and everything, it would seem that these unlit, un-platformed stations would have been an open invitation for someone to start a lawsuit for some real or staged injury.
The route is not used only for the one or two passenger runs. It is an active freight line, run by the New York and Atlantic Railway (which took over the LIRR Freight department some years back). In fact the line is far from dead. Most of the freight that travels Long Island runs through on that line.
Isn't the LIC depot a very short distance from the LIRR Hunterspoint station? If so, don't most passengers traveling from Jamaica to LIC find it easier to go to Hunterspoint instead?
Yeah, but the Ferry that some take is closer to LIC.
One more question: besides lack of passengers, did the LIRR also consider the possibility of lawsuits as one of the reasons for closing those stations?
Possibly, but the real reason was because when they got the new diesel trains, if they were to continue service on the line, they would have had to make the stations ADA compliant, and make them high level platforms, as the bi-levels don't have steps like the old trains had. The expense of this was not worth it because only about 1-5 people a day used these stations, with the average being only about 2 or 3 passengers for each station.
As far as travelers headed for Manhattan, Penn Station is located at W.34th St and 7th Avenue, so commuters bound for the East Side-Grand Central area (E.42d St and Park Avenue), have long preferred the Hunterspoint (or LIC) terminal and the connection to the 7 train which runs under 42d St once Manhattan is reached.
One other thing I should point out -Hunterspoint and LIC service is and has been for many, many years rush-hour only. Inbound in the AM rush and outbound during the evening.
Hope this helps. (Oh, and if you're ever in NY City try and ride the Lower Montauk. To me it's the best railfan ride in the Metropolitan Area.)
1. At what point(s) in manhattan does it drop off/pick up passengers?
2. What is the cost per trip?
3. How long does the trip take?
4. It sounds great for sightseers, but do many commuters prefer it over bus or train, in terms of cost and convenience?
Thanks,
Dave
And here's part of the mid-day service.
There's also weekend service.
Those poles in the background are LIPA's main Long Beach feed, fed along the Long Beach branch.
Here they are again in Island Park
They go underwater for the Long Beach channel and emerge just a few blocks east of the LIRR bridge, where the problem substation was.
Today I was walking to fare control after dropping into the subway at 12th st. Fare control at 13th and Market/Juniper St Station on the MFL and Subway Surface is just about halfway between 12th and 13th. However I noticed that there was a locked door with some lights on and a staircase behind it, the wall next to the door was glass and I could just see down to the bottom, where the tunnel turned left.
I suppose this was an old out of fare control underpass between the westbound and eastbound sides of the mezzanine. Why can't they reopen it, the lights seem to work. It's a pain in the ass to either come in on a westbound and need to be on the north side of the street, or vice versa, or, worse, to climb the wrong set of stairs coming up from the Subway surface and end up moronically having to cross the street again.
So why is that SEPTA cannot open the underpass?
It's too bad they can't just run it right up into the basement of their building, down by the PCC in their 'Transit Museum.'
Kinda like that parking lot at 8th and Market that was supposed to be all sorts of fun tourist things, until they just gave up and paved over it.
Mark
Mark
After decades of nothing, there's actually been a resurgence of home construction in Center City. There's a massive Manhattan style apartment tower being built right off of Washington Sq. The entire block of the original Bookbinders is being converted to Condos. The beautiful Dept. of Ed building along the parkway is to become high end condos. I'm glad to see that people are finding Philly to be a desirable place to live again.
But still, there are empty lots at 8th, 15th, and 20th along the Market/Chestnut corridor, yet they're about to build a skyscraper over the rail yards next to 30th Street Station (transit content)?
New York doesn't have a monopoly on shady real estate deals. The overnight demolition of JFK stadium was proof of that!
Mark
Go here to download the video.
Go here to download the video.
http://www.passur.com/sites.htm
That would be very cool indeed, but it also would require the existence of a central command board showing the location of every train in the system - which doens't exist.
Since LU knows where its trains are, at least as far as being able to tell passengers what the next three trains will be, it shouldnt be too difficult to plot this in real time (or perhaps delayed 10 minutes for security reasons!)
Going back to the original application, run a replay any weekday around 7pm. The number of planes in the air over the tri-state area is scary!
Just substitute the three-letter airport code for "HPN" inthe URL.
There may be others.
The one for SNA has an 11.5 minute delay. I live right under the approach to the one and only jet runway and certain planes (the one and only Airbus A310 that comes in nightly, FedEx) goes over and then it's 11/5 minutes until it shows on the screen as passing over my place.
The site says that the delays are for security purposes, but I can't quite figure out why that is the case.
Ya know, Crazy Ibrahims surplus SAM shop on Canal Street
--It takes much longer, by a few minutes at least, for everyone to exit the train. I'm not sure how come, but it just does. What happens in an emergency and time is important?
--This could just be a reflection of my own private nature, but too may seats face each other. When I'm riding in a group, we sit at the seats facing each other by the door in the M1s and M3s, but on the way to work, I'm by myself and much prefer to contemplate the view out the window, the newspaper, or the seat in front of me, instead of facing somebody....they should not have put facing seats mid-car.
--The backs of the seats are too high; in the M1s and M3's, if the seat is occupied, it's readily apparent, but you have to look harder in the M7s.
--In a local line like the Port Wash, the bing bongs! get annoying.
www.forgotten-ny.com
:)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Also Siemens does build more than just trolleys. They do build commuterm high-speed and subway equipment.
The M-7's have a excellant MDBF, need I say more ?
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
The Midland Railway Works, Derby Adtranz Bombardier can make some very fine trains, you know.
Class 168/0 (in sidings at London Marylebone (these will be replaced with platforms 5 and 6!))
Class 168/1 (whereas the /0s had the "fat bastard" front end, the /1s have a more streamlined look - these are officially called "Networker" and "Turbostar" outlines; this one's on platform 3 at Marylebone.)
The 168s have a great comfortable interior, all 2+2, a variety of seat shapes (it's really good fun playing "pick a seat" at Birmingham Snow Hill), and no wasteful rip-off 1st Class section.
They also have HUGE disabled lavs.
AEM7
Bombardier took Adtranz over and someone decided it looked better. I personally prefer the "fat bastard" front end.
(2) What the difference between 168/1 and 170/x?
- The 170s can MU with anything from Class 150 to 170, the 168/1s only with 165 to 170.
- The 168/1s are 1266hp, the 170s are variously 800hp and 1200hp.
- The 170s have "BSI automatic" couplers, the 168/1s only have "Tightlock/BSI".
- The 170s have fewer seats (3 car units): 168/1 has 206, 170/1 has 173, 170/2 has 158, 170/3 has 174, some 170/4s have 180, others 198. Most of this is down to Chiltern Railways having abolished first class.
- Another comparison on seating (4 car units): 168/0 has 276, 168/1 has 282, 170/6 has 218.
- For completeness (2 car units): 168/1 has 128, 170/1 has 121, 170/2 has 119, 170/3 has variously 122 or 109, 170/5 is the only one which outdoes the 168s with 134 seats.
- The only other difference is that fewer problems have been reported publicly with the 168s. Interesting.
(3) What the difference between 165/0 and 168/0?
- Built by: 165/0: BREL/ABB York; 168/0: Adtranz, Derby
- Formation: 165001-165028 DMCL-DMS, 165029-165039 DMCL-MS-DMS, 168/0 DMSL(A)-MSL-MS-DMSL(B)
- Length: 165/0: end cars 75'2", middle cars 74'6"; 168/0s: 77'6"
- Width: 165/0: 9'2"; 168/0: 8'10"
- Height: 165/0: 12'5"; 168/0: 12'4"
- Seating: 165/0: 2-car: 186(16F), 3 car: 276(16F); 168/0: 4-car: 276(0F), 3-car: 203(0F)
- Seating layout: 165/0: 2+2F, 2+3S; 168/0: 2+2S
- Toilets: 165/0: 1 in DMCL; 168/0: 3 (1 in each of DMSL(A/B) and MSL)
- Weight: 165/0: 2-car: 74 metric tons, 3-car: 111 metric tons; 168/0: 4-car: 168.8 metric tons, 3-car: 127.8 metric tons
- Bogies: 165/0: BREL P3-17 and T3-17 (Powered and Trailer); 168/0: BREL P3-23 and T3-23
- Power units: 165/0: 1x Perkins 2006TWH per vehicle; 168/0: 1x MTU 6R183TD13H per vehicle
- Horsepower: 165/0: 2-car: 700hp, 3 car: 1050hp; 168/0: 1266hp
- Max Speed: 165/0: 75mph; 168/0: 100mph
- MU: 165/0: any 15x or 16x and 170; 168/0: 165, 166, 168, 170
- Body structure: 165/0: welded aluminium; 168/0: welded aluminium, steel ends
- 165001-165005 don't have Chiltern ATP and tripcocks
It's perhaps more informative to say whats the same:
- the gangway's down the middle (as opposed to on the side)
- both have Air EP brakes
- both have Hydraulic Voith T211r transmission
- both have Tightlock/BSI coupling
- both have "bi-parting sliding plug" doors
- Chiltern Railways use both stocks
- errrr... that's it
Give me a 158 anyday. BREL forever!
AEM7
Are those doors electric. I always thought they were pneumatic. They are on the Hawker-Siddeley cars we have up here.
Failure of upper door track: Is that when the door 'de-rails' and becomes jammed?
Position sensors: So doors do not just close until they can close no further? Surely that would be a simpler design -- shove the door until the door does not shove, then stop.
AEM7
Yes, DC electric motors.
Failure of upper door track: Is that when the door 'de-rails' and becomes jammed?
Or from constant abuse the tracks loosen and the door panel drops
Position sensors: So doors do not just close until they can close no further? Surely that would be a simpler design -- shove the door until the door does not shove, then stop.
Hardly. The doors actually open and close at 2 speeds in each direction. They start off at high speed but cushion resistors slow the doors so that they don't slam into the pocket or as the door panels meet. This is apart from the obstruction sensing system.
From what I've seen so far(yes I'm a regular LIRR commuter) M7 trains take longer to load and unload, and I think the doors are part of the issue.
As I said before, and I'll say again: Single leaf doors was probably the stupidest decision that could of been made.
Each door panel on the NYCT is supposed to open in 1.5 seconds and close in 2.5 seconds. Assuming the door openings are similar on the M-7s, then the M-7 panel must cover twice the distance at roughly the same speed as the NYCT door - hence 3 seconds.
I ride the C-3s on the Montauk branch on occasion and don't find the door speed objectionable.
As for the loading and unloading time on the M-7s, I've seen no data on this to support or refute your observations.
About the unload/load time: I could be dead wrong about my observations, but after riding the M7's often(lately its been around 50/50 M1/M7 for me) I guess that maybe I'm starting to see this.
Question about the M7 doors if you know: When the red LED's blink to indidate that the doors are about to close, do the crews control that as a seperate function, or do they hit the button, the LED's begin to blink and after a preset time do the doors begin to close automacially?
Back when they were new, the R-46 door chime would sound before the doors closed. Since this was before my time i can only go by what I've been told but that delay was variable.
On the M-1 and M-3 the bell usually sounds for a second or 2 before te door closes. I thought that it was part of the door circuitry. However, a conductor friend of mine showed me that it's all manual. The conductor hits the close button and then immediately hits the open button. That activates the bell and keeps the doors open.
So take your pick.
David
I've ridden the M-7's quite often and their ride quality is superior to the M-1's. Their smooth, rapid excelleration beats the pants off the M-1's, especially the M-1's that are so slow they can't get out of their way. The M-3's ride is the worst.
" Lack of soundproofing and dysfunctional air conditioning are what makes them bad cars"
What do you mean lack of sound proofing ? The M-7's on the interiors are much quieter than the M-1/3's, especially in the tunnels.
And for exterior quiet, on a concrete roadbed, the M-7's are much quieter. And what's this about dysfunctional air conditioning ? If the car you rode had bad A/C, that does not make for bad A/C for the entire fleet.
Have you ever ridden an M-1 with NO A/C ? Those end storm doors tied open are no help. They are like suanas when the A/C fails. Have you ever ridden an M-1 on a frigid cold winter day with the outside temp around 20 degress and the interior with no heat ? Well I have, and with a heavy winter coat, gloves and wool hat, I was barely warm. Another reason that I won't miss the M-1's.
" Rebuild the M1s"
Too late, the M-1's won't be rebuilt, but rather sent to Mexico for scrapping. BTW, exactly how many times have you ridden the M-7's ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I was told by a Car Inspector that last winter the M-7s were kept out of service in the snow because the A/C ducts allowed snow into the car vestibules. I never had that experience personally, however.
BTW, Amtrak dosen't seem to care about snowy vestabules.
The part of the car you are referring to are foyers, not vestabules because they are inside the climate control zone of the coach, not outside. BTW, aren't you the one who like to critisize those regurgitating faulty information?
Perhaps the LIRR ought to label them as such, and standing should be prohibited in those area. FRA regulation prohibit revenue passengers to ride in the vestibule areas.
AEM7
Mike is simply changing the issue and you are buying into it.
Ah, I see. I never read any of the earlier postings. I guess it's a problem that snow is entering the car (whereas it's less of a problem on Amfleets, where the door areas are isolated from the passenger cabins by an additional, interior door). Basic facts? Since I never have any of those (since I am not a regular rider in the NYC area), I never have this problem. I let the people who live and ride in the area fill me in on the facts. And I fill in the facts on the Boston area equipment.
AEM7
Actually, it's called the "quarterdeck".
And Technically, the quarterdeck is wherever the captain say it is.
: )
Elias
Why are elephants pink? The last time I checked, they were grey. Some mutt zebra-elephants have grey and dark grey halftone stripes. I'd imagine some have poker dots, but I haven't seen those yet. Maybe elephants are like trains, and you can paint them any color you want, and maybe with a big blue swoosh. That would be cheaper to paint on a grey elephant. Do elephants have unit numbers too?
AEM7 #902
I have the perfect solution:
Put a fat gentleman horizontally-enhanced American in a red coat and hat in each vestibule-thingy-or-whatever, turn the normal lights off, put fairy lights and tinsel up and hang up a sign saying "MTA LIRR Santa's Grotto". Then leave it up to the mommies to pay $3 a time for their kid to see Santa and explain to the kids why there are two Santas in each car...
Anyway, you're using the term vestabule out of scope. It might be called the vestabule on MNRR/LIRR, but they use a unique door configuration on American commuter rail systems. Because Subtalk is a forum spanning all commuter systems you should try to translate terms into that broader scope. Snowy vestabules are a common minor problem on passenger systems that operate in snow areas as per my photograph. Snow inside the car interrior is a much more serious problem, the implications of which would be lost on most people if you use the term vestabule. The only reason you're throwing a hissy fit is because you like to feel all smug and superrior with your anal retention of jargon minutia.
Mike, that is really rude. Have you ever seen the result of someone being clipped in a close clearance area? Do you realize that Train Dude has families too?
There's only one person that I had ever wished that were ran over by a train, and that was one toxic person who concotted a visit to my first-ever girlfriend while I was out of town, and even though I have no detail of what exactly transpired, I was extremely unhappy with this guy, and even in that case I only wished he was ran over, and not clipped in a close clearance area. Ran over is far more painless than being clipped and then dragged.
AEM7
See mike that's why I'm glad that I'm not you. If I ever do get hit by a train, though, feel free to take credit for it.
As for the other motor/mechanism - you're way out of line. You said motor failure and I said motors rarely if ever fail. It's the other parts fo the door mechanism that fail. If you think that I'm nit picking than you've got some real issues, young man. You were wrong about the door motor thing. You were wrong about the vestibule thing. I'd tell you that you were wrong for wishing that someone get hit by a train because they disagree with you but that's something your parents should have taught you. I'd guess they did a pretty piss-poor job.
I'd tell you that you were wrong for wishing that someone get hit by a train because they disagree with you
If this were true I would hate most of the people on this board, but I don't. I only truely dispise you BECAUSE of who you are and NOT because of different reasons altogether. Everything you do is in bad faith. Everthing you do is a calculated measure to further some sort of megalomaniacal quest for power. I am sick of it and I am not going to stand for it.
You know your creative uses of punctuation and capitalization is associating you with a very distinctive crowd.
You do have issues, young man.
Mike, You WILL NEVER make a railroader!
If you ever bothered to read Hot Times you'll see how much Railroad supervision cares about safety. I myself have been personally present when a dispatcher ordered an employee to violate safe practices for the sake of expediance so don't go around making regurgitating the corporate line on management's commitment to safety.
In some ways I'm glad he studied Informatics Security instead of Transportation Management. Ths way, at least he won't be able to get a top job at a railroad.
AEM7
Oh the shame!!! A chemist. Wait 'till Koi reads this!!!
Fortunately for Koi, he doesn't waste his valuable time reading flamage.
BTW, I am looking into information security positions at the FRA (it is sorely needed). From there I hope to leverage myself into a policy position.
Good luck. And be happy that no one at FRA knows who "Jersey Mike" is. I won't tell them. AEM7
Having gone through NYCT track safety training while interning for them I can tell you that wishing death on someone as a result of being clipped by a train is disgusting and shouldn't be tolerated by others on this board.
If you have a problem with Train Dude's "facist" managerial style then keep it to yourself. You have never met him so don't judge him based on what is essentially hearsay. He is a hell of a lot more useful on this board than you and actually can back up the vast majority of his statements with factual information, something you sorely lack.
No wonder you went to Wesleyan, it shows.
-Harry
Then neither should vicious hate filled racism directed at fellow Subtalkers which was demonstrated by Train Dude on this board after 9/11. After that I considered TD to be flying the black flag. No quarter offered no quarter given.
So, just because every railroad employee I have talked with have had troubles with ass hole managers and have on occasion wished them harm, dosen't actually mean that you are going to care about what I have to say so I don't usually feel any need to tell you.
Having met you I could see how you may have trouble relating to people, perhaps the only way for you to maintain any sense of sanity and esteem is to be a wannabe eccentric genius who will waste his life debating people on the most minute of details, insisting he is correct to the bitter end, even if all indications suggest he is wrong.
Site providers usually charge per MByte of storage and per Mbyte of traffic in and out. The amount of storage used for this site is quite large. Consider all the pictures. But text uses relatively little storage and also uses relatively little transmission capacity when read.
I am not completely familar with the situation, but it is my impression that Dave owns the servers outright and simply pays to have them connected, powered and located. Which probably means a base monthly fee and bandwidth fees.
Remember, when you're paying an ISP to run a large site the network traffic isn't the only thing. That's probably the largest component, but there's also disk space (less of an issue now than it once was, of course, but it still costs) and processing power. How fast you all forget that the performance of Subtalk used to be a lot worse! How do you think it got better? A little recoding and a lot of throwing money at the problem.
The TA uses running lights while the LIRR use Headlights and ditch lights. I don't call running lights ditch lights when I refer to NYCT cars.
The TA uses vertical and lateral shocks. Some properties refer to them as snubbers.
TA has motormen. Path, LIRR, NJT and Amtrak have engineers.
TA has yard motormen while some ailroads have hostlers.
The TA has hostlers too but not the same as railroad hostlers.
We call underground heavy rail systems, subways while in London, subway has a completely different meaning.
Mike, the issue was snow getting into LIRR M-7 cars. The area that the snow would accumulate was and is referred to as the vestibule by the people who built the car, by the people who maintain the cars and by the people who operate the cars. Frankly, I don't care what it's called but for the life of me, I can't understand your fanatical resistance to using the term that the LIRR uses.
Call them water closets if you wish but most people accept them as vestibules on the LIRR.Call them water closets and most people won't know what you are talking about.
Are the lateral shocks what was referred to as yaw dampers by TA personnel during our 207 St shop tour 2 years ago?
Can't believe folks have to keep beating a dead horse ... but I suppose post counts are more important to some. Hopefully the REST of us know better and will ... well ... stop. :)
Errrmmmm.... they are all from a server - link.
Wow, I didn't know the first prototype M-7's were made in 1983. I wish I had been old enough to work on that project then. Must have been so cool to spend your entire career building a train, and finally as you retire see it go into mass production and service!
This implies you are putting the input into different parts of the spectrum in order for it to be transmitted at the same time without interfering with each other. This would imply that the (pink elephant) will manhandle the passengers into seats, which would either be isolated from each other, or would be far apart so that the passengers, tied down to their seats, could wave their arms in all directions and not hit another passenger (or if they do hit another passenger, it will guarentee that both passengers will still be intact by the time they are de-multiplexed).
I do not believe the pink elephants by the doors on LIRR are equipped with this functionality, thus technically it isn't a MPDEMP.
AEM7
I believe the functionality played by that role is called a 'router'. The purpose of TCP and UDP is to maintain connexions, i.e. once the packets are routed through a variety of different routes, TCP puts them back together to form a reasonable bitstream in a way that applications can understand. Multiplexors have very little to do with the way TCP works. I suppose you could argue that the decision made by the router at the point of origin is a form of multiplexing, in the sense that the packets are 'multiplexed' over different routes to reach the same destination without interfering with each other, but most people would call this a router, and not a multiplexor.
AEM7
(I do believe I passed my IP class)
By the way, do you guys learn all about Ethernet protocol, Tokenring protocol, and all that in its gory detail? Oh and do you guys talk about SONET at all? (SONET is something I don't understand, I just remember the jargon from my IP class)
AEM7
I found a website with some good stuff on it. But by the webmaster's own admission, it is rapidly becoming irrelevant except in places with old gear and old infrastructure (third world countries?)
Link here
http://www.sonet.com/edu/edu.htm
AEM7
Arti
:0)
It's an ANSI standard.
But by the webmaster's own admission, it is rapidly becoming irrelevant except in places with old gear and old infrastructure (third world countries?)
More in US, as SONET is a US standard. Current trend is packet switcing not circuit switching.
Arti
The purpose of TCP and UDP is to maintain connexions (sic)
UDP is a stateless, connectionless protocol.
What Meriden Mike is describing as multiplexing is essentially
correct. Both TCP and UDP provide additional addressing space
beyond the 32-bit IP address, in the form of 16-bit port numbers,
which direct transport-level data to particular processes or
applications on the host computer.
However, in the telecom field, the term multiplexer usually
refers to a fixed-function device, for example a DS-1 multiplexer
which aggregrates 24 DS-0 channels into a DS-1 signal based on
Time Division Multiplexing.
Oh, I get it now. Multiplexing in the sense that the connexion (ancient Eng.) between two computers is one connexion but multiple processes could use that link AS IF they each had their individual dedicated link, so in that sense all the traffic from all the applications are multiplexed over the same transport link. Smart.
AEM7
However, houses also have vestibules, and those are not in the same place as on heavyweights, so...
vestibule n. 1. a passage, hall or antechamber between the outer door and the interior parts of a house or building. 2. a covered and enclosed space at the end of a railroad passenger car having side and trap doors for entering and leaving the train, and itself affording protected passage to the next car....
But of course my dictionary (c) 1947 does not know about M-1s.
My guess from the roots of the word, would suggest that it would be an entry way used for putting your vest on, or for taking it off when transitioning from the inside to the outside of the structure.
Elias
You've got it!
vestis, -is, f., from which (through French "veste") the English word "vest" derives means any piece of clothing.
The related verb is vestio, -ire, meaning to dress, clothe, cover, adorn.
A place in which this takes place is of course a vestibulum, initially a dressing room, which as one dressed up to go outside became specialised to being an entrance. It later devloped a figurative sense of being the beginning of something.
"Have you ever ridden an M-1 with NO A/C ? Those end storm doors tied open are no help. They are like suanas when the A/C fails. Have you ever ridden an M-1 on a frigid cold winter day with the outside temp around 20 degress and the interior with no heat ? Well I have, and with a heavy winter coat, gloves and wool hat, I was barely warm. Another reason that I won't miss the M-1's."
-
I have never had that heat problem with a M1/3
-
"exactly how many times have you ridden the M-7's ?" 7 over 1000 for the M1/3s()Lirr and MNR combined
Take a M1 trip from Flatbush Avenue to Jamaica(or vice versa), and then take that same trip with a M7. You'll find that in the M1, the tunnel nose is loud to the point where you can barely talk to somene, where as the M7 it is alot more tolerable.
The wheels on the M-1/3's are also flat, it's an autumn thing, wet leaves on rails. You failed to mention that.
"As I have not yet ridden an M7 without flat wheels, maybe it is quieter, I dont know."
They did ride quieter, before autumn. That's not Bombardier's fault. Other commuter railroads have the same problem with wet leaves on rails. Wheel truing ain't cheap.
"I have never had that heat problem with a M1/3"
I did, today in fact. Took a train from Hicksville comprised of M-1/3's. No seats so I walked to the second car, found a free seat,but NO HEAT ! No kidding.
"exactly how many times have you ridden the M-7's ?"
"7 over 1000 for the M1/3s()Lirr and MNR combined"
The more you ride the M-7, it's likely you'll get a better understanding. The consensus is that the passengers like them as well as the employees. Two of my friends are LIRR engineers and haven't said anything bad about them. And believe me, the can complain at times ! It seems only some misguided railfans who resist some form of change don't like them. Maybe because the full width cabs spelled the end of the railfan window.
Maybe someone should be on the inside of the LIRR to really understand that although the M-1's served well, they are well worn out. A multi million dollar rebuilding program for these 30 + year old commuter rail cars aren't in the best interest of the LIRR.
Don't let those shiny stainless steel bodies fool you. There are some cracks and metal fatigue plaguing these cars. If they were as resilient as the R-32's, maybe they would be rebuilt. But, that's not the case. Change is good, and it happens all the time.
Bill "Newkirk"
new equipment on a old railroad won't give you a magic carpet ride, and interior is only thing passengers notice.
but the propulsion/ braking/ and maintenance of these trains should be a big improvement over ancient M1 equipment with cam controlled eelectrical gear. the double AC systems, a better holding type toilet. etc.
The problem is with you, not the train.
Yes. Examples:
Class 142 "Pacer"
Class 144 "Railbus"
Classes 140, 141 and 143 look like versions of 142s and 144s.
Class 150 "Sprinter"
Class 153 "Half a Sprinter"
Classes 155 "Sprinter", 156 "Super Sprinter", and 158 "Express Sprinter" all look like two 153s joined together. They are all also crap, except for the 158, which can do 100mph (pity the lines are even crappier).
Imagine how a new IRT rider, just moving to the city and starting a 50 year career (given the future of social security), is going to feel about the R-142's "Stand clear of the closing door please" by the time that career is over.
By that I assume you mean by the time they go insane and leap in front of an oncomming R-142O.
I don't know about that, Ron. The area dedicated for wheelchair patrons is also near the ADA toilet. That basic area is reserved for the handicapped with handicapped signs on the exterior of the car.
Bill "Newkirk"
Elias
ROFLMAO
Points thereof are very superficial. How well do the trains run? Have they broken down? and if so, how often. How is the heat/AC system. In case of emergency, how easy is egress through the windows? (and they look larger to me.) BTW, higher seat backs perhaps would help reduce whiplash in case of hard braking or crashes? Compare such points to the past Ms.
The Straphangers' Campaign has put up this list of proposed cuts that they state came from MTA docs. (URL=www.straphangers.org/cuts/cutslist.html)
This list is taken from the preliminary 2004 NYCTA operating budget. How would you folks modify it so as to minimize the pain to the riding public? What else can we do, besides asking for more money from Albany (which we should also do), to alleviate this a bit?
Look over the list. You guys (and gals) know the stations, tunnels, tracks. Can you create a list of operational savings that would help more?
Those guys must be paid real good. :)
I don't think it's an issue of manipulating what to cut. If those cuts proposed won't have a significant effect on quality of service or maintenance, do them.
Otherwise, incrementally raise the weekly and monthly MetroCards and consider altering the discount on multi-rides. Every five years consider raising the base fare.
On the other hand, I don't know what actual benefit the public will see from increased TSSs. Do they actually promise to run trains on schedule (not early as well as not late) if they increase the number of TSSs.
Sunday, August 15, 2101.
Public officials and spectators today gathered to watch mayor D. Joseph Quimby cut the ribbon on the long-awaited and finally complete subway beneath Second Avenue.
As the mayor guided the laser beam across the carbon-fiber cable that substituted the traditional ribbon, New York finally completes a journey that has lasted nearly 200 years.
A subway underneath Second Avenue was first proposed to replace the elevated train in the 1920s, the line would have run the entire length of the avenue and been six tracks wide in places.
As time went on, money squandered and the el demolished, plans were scaled back, when construction began in the 1970s, the line was to have only two tracks.
After the city's fiscal crisis, construction ceased and never again began, until 2050, when a new, scaled down version was approved, this project is the one that New York celebrates today.
In a short speech, mayor Quimby thanked former mayor Adam West for his major contribution to the project. Mr. West spearheaded the effort to convince the city to refer to its aging rapid transit system as the Metro, and to adopt the chiefly British definition for subway.
"Without Mr. West's efforts, we would not have a Second Avenue Subway today. Thanks to Mayor West, a failed 180 year-old dream has finally allowed New Yorkers to cross 2nd Avenue at 42nd Street without worrying about being hit by a poorly-programmed robocab."
IN OTHER TRANSIT NEWS:
The NYPD has released a report showing that Chud attacks in the subway is on the rise. Plans to release a strain of bacteria that affects only Chuds has met with resistance from environmental groups, particularly PETCH, People for the Ethical Treatment of Chuds.
The Inertial Dampeners Campaign is scheduled to release their annual metro line ratings tomorrow. According to reports issued by their spokesperson, Spokesdroid #68, The Q will again get the lowest rating at $25 a ride. The low-rating is believed to be attributed to the .25 km/h speed limit on the Personhattan Bridge.
HA HA
Very funny!!!!!!
If only what you typed were true!
Hey Subtalker's
Do you ever think the SAS will ever open?
Post (or re-post) your thoughts and speculations on this matter!
Dan
Arti
The Joker would be proud of this too.
--Mike
Peace,
ANDEE
I didn't mind it personally, but I understand the objections. It did seem like a strange place to put it.
What about the one seven blocks down?
Pick up a copy of today's free amNewYork and turn to page 02.
Da Hui
til next time
Da Hui
Now, about that proposed law banning LED signage in residential neighborhoods....
Thing 1: Every neighborhood is residential to one degree or another.
Thing 2: What about NYCT and NYCDOT buses with LED destination signs? Will they be banned as well?
Hopefully this should show an absolutely crazy scheme for joining up the District Fast Lines and the LTS.
Do you think Thames Trains local riders would want to go to Paddington for any reason other than the architecture?
The train frequencies would never work...
The most that line would see would be 6tph. That is what currently runs in rush hour. Stopping patterns can be f*cked up la Great Western at will. The increase would be at the other end - there are currently 4tph to Grays via Purfleet
Me & ex-girlfriend used to ride Thames Trains from Paddington -- she was at Imperial College (with campus right by Paddington), and I would come off VWC at Euston. I'd be most upset if you replaced our memory train with a crappy District Line subway car!
The terminus that gets you soaked to the skin whilst you walk the "200m" to Euston Square.
I'd be most upset if you replaced our memory train with a crappy District Line subway car!
I was thinking of something more classy - like a modern version of A Stock ;-)
Make sure you paint it NSE colors, and have those 3+2 seating ;-)
I dunno... I personally like Rail Blue.
Rail Blue has no memories for me, except the Intercity 125 version which was the first train I rode in.
AEM7
I have vague memories of the end of Rail Blue on the Cardiff Queen St - Coryton Line (my earliest memories are of Queen St station in the snow). This of course got replaced by Regional Fail and Sprinters.
Quite what they were thinking choosing the Sprinter, I don't know. I mean they had a choice between the Class 150 Sprinter and the Class 151. I know which I'd've chosen.
Class 150 Sprinter
Class 151
(Photos lifted from web).
I'd say more along the lines of failed attempt at a Class 170. Seeing as BR could only afford a crap train, it's all aesthetic really and I find Sprinters the second ugliest type of unit on the rails today (after Pacers/Railbuses).
And no gangway.
I seem to remember the 170 has exactly that problem.
I rode on 158's all my time and I loved them.
I love the speed 158s can do. Doesn't stop them being ugly. What I really don't like is the line speed between Wigston North Junction (Leicester) and Grand Junction (Birmingham). You could put a TGV on that line and it would still top out at 70mph.
A high speed line from the WCML at B'ham Intl to the MML in South Leicester would really help the Midlands.
Nearly blessed the cab once too :-p
Nearly... I shan't ask how you accessed the cab...
Yes, and ScotRail lost commuter fares for about six months after their introduction.
I love the speed 158s can do. Doesn't stop them being ugly.
Better looking than the 170's or the crappy ass Heritage units. The only heritage units I've ever liked are the 4-VEPs and 4-CEPs, and maybe even the EPB's (the version with the flush yellow front).
What I really don't like is the line speed between Wigston North Junction (Leicester) and Grand Junction (Birmingham). You could put a TGV on that line and it would still top out at 70mph.
No, it wouldn't fit on that line. Curves are too servere, it would jacknife.
Nearly... I shan't ask how you accessed the cab...
Used a key. Not a front cab.
AEM7
Heritage units are fun for extras on Sundays. I personally prefer the 170s to the 158s in terms of styling. The 170 is let down by being a buggered up 168 and therefore by definition a fudge.
So a beefed up 168 would be my ideal modern unit.
No, it wouldn't fit on that line. Curves are too servere, it would jacknife.
D'oh! That just goes to show how much that line sucks!
Just so you know: when the 170's were introduced, they conveniently "forgot" a wheelslip mod that was done to the 158's, and those things were sitting down left right and center until they re-modded what they had already modded on the 158's. You'd think that all relevant mods would already be applied when you put out a second generation unit.
Oh, and the braking system was supposed to work with 158+170 in tandem. It didn't. At one point, a seven-car train consisting of 158+170+158 was running with brakes only on the first 158 unit due to that defect, until the driver reported "almost no brakes". Then they slapped on an operations order saying no 158+170 tandem until further notice. I never found out if it was ever fixed or not.
AEM7
It must have been, as about 6 months ago (typically not in rush hour), I got a seven car Birmingham NS - Leicester (- Stansted) train, two 158s to which they coupled a 3-car 170 on the rear whilst we were stopped in New St station. If only the Birmingham - Leicester line got 7 cars when it most needed it. (Either that or a 10-15 minute frequency).
Not sure about the Bexley extension. Its easy for people in this area to get to the south of the City and Embankment destinations anyway, and what you are proposing would probably not be able to result in fewer services through Lewisham. It may be better to go to Romford and Southend.
I suggest you make more of a distinction between inner and outer suburban to the West: Central Line to West Drayton, District Line West Drayton onwards; Bakerloo to Ealing Broadway and Greenford, Piccadilly Line all stations to Heathrow T4 loop. Then why not extend the District Line south from Heathrow T5 to Ashford and the Windsor lines.
Just a random Crossrail-esque idea that hit me last night.
The tunnels would run (from Baron's Court):
- under/alongside Piccadilly Line tunnels to South Kensington
- under the District Line to Victoria
- under Buckingham Gate, The Mall, The Strand, then cutting cross-block from Fleet St/Fetter La to City Thameslink
- deep under the Central Line, crossing beneath DLR at Bank
- under Cornhill St, Leadenhall St, Aldgate, then under the District Line to a portal somewhere in the Bromley-by-Bow area
Not sure about the Bexley extension. Its easy for people in this area to get to the south of the City and Embankment destinations anyway, and what you are proposing would probably not be able to result in fewer services through Lewisham.
The plan was to get a railway line to Thamesmead (which definitely needs it). After that, a transfer station at Abbey Wood was an obvious thing to do. East Wickham could do with rail access, but wouldn't justify it by itself. The useful bit is once you get to Bexleyheath, where the existing station is a long way from the Broadway, so an Underground line would come in handy here. The Bexley bit is to get to a suitable site for a small yard between Bexley and North Cray.
It may be better to go to Romford and Southend.
You and your GER...
I suggest you make more of a distinction between inner and outer suburban to the West: Central Line to West Drayton, District Line West Drayton onwards;
The Express Districts may be too much service out there in themseleves. I don't think there's any need for the Central Line too (plus I'd be reluctant to extend such an overcrowded line).
Piccadilly Line all stations to Heathrow T4 loop.
Another overcrowded line I was trying to kill. This I would divert to remove the need for a King's Rd Line:
Then why not extend the District Line south from Heathrow T5 to Ashford and the Windsor lines.
I like that as an idea - I might stick that one one. Possibly Heathrow T5, Ashford, Staines, Chertsey, Addlestone, Weybridge to give passengers on the SW Main Line an easy run at Heathrow.
I'm (un)surprised no-one noticed me killing Acton Main Line.
Yes, Thamesmead is lacking, but the Jubilee Line can also provide a link. All my personal rail fantasies involve closing down termini. You've managed this with Fenchurch Street, and with your scheme, either Marylebone or Paddington could close, which is excellent. Thamesmead extension does not (a) give purpose to a line lacking a purpose, or (b) contribute to closing down a terminal.
Central Line
This would actually welcome extra traffic in the West: That is the problem with the line, not only is it very unbalanced (east much busier than west) but the larger depot is on the light traffic side. With Central and District Line extensions, the traffic would come flocking in.
Heathrow Line
I presume that you intend to four-track from Acton to Heathrow? The line needs it. Passengers from Heathrow could then have a choice of all-stations Piccadilly Line to West End and Kings Cross, or Express District Line to Embankment and City. Sharing the traffic in this way would provide an excellent service and decongest the Piccadilly Line.
Not now they've wasted all that money on that dumb Canary Wharf - Blackwall - Stratford alignment. There are vested interests in proving that a success.
You've managed this with Fenchurch Street, and with your scheme, either Marylebone or Paddington could close
The idea was indeed to close Fenchurch St and clear space in Paddington station for long distance trains. The only things which I'd leave in Paddington that could be described as shorter distance would be the Slough, Reading then all stops services to Bedwyn and to Oxford.
Marylebone most definitely wouldn't close. The Local service to Gerrard's Cross would be gone, but this would be to clear paths for fast trains. What would use Marylebone would be:
- Brackley Local via Amersham and Aylesbury
- Buckingham Local via Amersham and Aylesbury (transfer to the Oxbridge Line at Verney Junction)
- Fast and Semi Fast Birmingham trains (overtaking at Banbury)
- Hereford/Worcester via Princes Risboro and Oxford
- Leicester via Grendon Underwood & Ashendon Line
Princes Risboro to Aylesbury would remain a shuttle.
I presume that you intend to four-track from Acton to Heathrow? The line needs it. Passengers from Heathrow could then have a choice of all-stations Piccadilly Line to West End and Kings Cross, or Express District Line to Embankment and City. Sharing the traffic in this way would provide an excellent service and decongest the Piccadilly Line.
I wasn't actually thinking of sending any Piccadilly Line trains that way. I was going to send them all to Clapham via Chelsea.
If I had (a) MSTS and (b) the time, it sure would!
Since all of my bookmarks have disappeared for reasons known only to Mr Gates - if at all - anyone have any idea of the site ... or what I am talking about???
http://www.subwaynavigator.com/
And don't forget to look in the Transfer Station for more subway websites.
Look.
www.subwayinfo.com sucks; it thinks the quickest way from 85 Nassau Avenue, Brooklyn, NY 11222 to 161 W 42nd St, Manhattan, NY 10036 is to transfer at Broadway from the G train to the N train. Warped or what?
hainault
And, I have photographic evidence!
It is not uncommon to have #2 line trainsets (6300 to about 6700) running as #5 trains and #5 trainsets (6700 to 7150) running on the #2 line.
Do you know if north set 7216-7220 had the #6 line or the #4 line strip maps inside?
til next time
til next time
This is NO/U> news, two sets from the #6 line were traded for two sets from the #4 line due to warranty issues with the Pelham fleet R142As (or something to that effect)...#7216-7220 and 7406-7410 were transferred to the #4, while #7681-7685 and #7726-7730 were transferred to the #6.
Incognito
This is NOT news, two sets from the #6 line were traded for two sets from the #4 line due to warranty issues with the Pelham fleet R142As (or something to that effect)...#7216-7220 and 7406-7410 were transferred to the #4, while #7681-7685 and #7726-7730 were transferred to the #6.
Incognito
Parents:
Please tell your kids that hitching or hanging out
of windows on the bus can result in injury - or worse.
The only safe ride is a ride inside
U-h-h-h-h-h-h
Buy the way Thanks for the heads you on the new one.
Robert
You probably saw that aleady!
This could be the biggest mistake NYCT has done on the R142 sets, the absence of using stainless steel interiors and using a wall coating that can be easily removed by a vandal with a box cutter.
: )
Mark
That didn't stop the vandals from hitting the R62/62A/68/68A's
Da Hui
Peace,
ANDEE
Bill "Newkirk"
Chuck Greene
The R142/A on the 4 (only the 4 have I seen this) have "JEMZ" carved into the window in thick scratchitti. The R142A on the 6 have remarkably clean windows, with just water spots on them.
I got to see a cross-sectional view of the R142 interior wall, and I just saw something that looked like plywood, with silverpaint on the outside edges.
Why couldn't they put the announcement on the Ad Racks, rather than TAPING them on the window....
--Mark
::rimshot::
::ducking the tomatoes::
Just coat the metal in mylar!
As for the interior panels, these should be modular and easy to replace if buffing out cannot save them. OnTheJuice reported that on the R142s, the paneling is permanently glued into place.
CG
Every disaster in the history of mass transportation can be traced, at least in part, to some element of human error.
Is it me or are attention spans out of control? As tired as I got on the splits, there was always something about having your face in the glass that kept you WIDE awake, especially on rush hour runs ...
According to the WMATA website, service is still disrupted as of 12:45PM.
I hope they find the wacko and crucify him.
I'd better buy as many adult diapers as I can carry and hop on Acela for DC. Could be quite profitable :)
WHEW!!!!
It seems as though some degree of caution was warranted here.
CG
Newsday.com has a link to the NYC Holiday Model Train Show. Its cool, take a look.
http://www.nynewsday.com/?track=leftnav
Take a look at the photo of Fordham Road/IND station in the Bronx. For those who are not familar with the layout of Fordham, there are 5 street entrances to that station. Four of them are one block south of Fordham Road and are located on East 188th st, all on side streets leading to the F/T booth and fare control area. The fifth entrance is on the Grand Concourse and Fordham Road, southeastern corner (P/T booth). When you see this picture you will note that only the P/T S/E corner entrance is the only staircase that is correct. The other 4 entrances are shown to be on the Grand Concourse and not on East 188th Street, there is also a double set of stairs on the N/W corner of GC/E. 188. Then no surprises here; the closed exits on the Alexanders/Caldor entrance and the entrance on the N/E corner, across the current S/E entrance are still marked. And the stair to Alexanders-Caldor itself appears to lead directly inside the store and not on the N/W corner.
Further up the picture (not shown) at Kingsbridge Road are the two southernmost staircases of the south entrance still marked on the same 2002 map, even though they have been closed for safety reasons a long time ago since the current map was printed.
DUH!
Also, where do you have access to neighborhood maps?
As for Kingsbridge, when coming up one of the two stairs (not the underpass behind the booth) you will see a false wall or gate blocking off the passageways to the south staircases.
At this point the Concourse is on a high ridge that is about five stories above 174th and 175th Streets, which accounts for the unique layout at this stop. In fact, there are four levels of traffic at this intersection. At the bottom is the Cross-Bronx Expressway, cut through in the early 1960's long after the Concourse IND and nearby Jerome Ave. IRT el were built. Next level up is 174th Street, then the IND subway tunnel, then the Concourse on top.
My apologies for this error.
There are SIX street entrances to that station. You forgot the one at the N/E corner of Fordham Rd. and GC.
>>>>The fifth entrance is on the Grand Concourse and Fordham Road, southeastern corner (P/T booth). <<<
No longer a P/T booth. This was changed into a 24 hour Metrocard entrance.
>>>The other 4 entrances are shown to be on the Grand Concourse and not on East 188th Street,<<<
Nefarious nitpicking. The entrances are just off The Grand concourse.
Your other statements are correct.
Peace,
ANDEE
Not true on PATH. The cars were exempted from the buff-strength requirement because PATH is a captive railroad. When FRA standards came into effect, PATH had to severe its links with Conrail on the Jersey side. The switches may still be in place, but to satisfy FRA requirement they are probably chained in the reset position and will probably require boltcutters to move. Does anyone know if the switches are still there?
AEM7
The broad Street subway has a connection to Septa's regional system - it's by Fern Rock - they're not FRA reguylated.
Path was, because it used to share trackage for a very long time with PRR commuter / freight trains. Note the wires over the tracks...
However, PATH retains it's special railroad grandfathering for any future eventual;ity where such grandfathering might come in handy.
AEM7
"You have tasted your worm, you have hissed my mystery lectures and you shall leave Oxford on the next town drain."
The good thing is you seem to have some of your more vitriolic impulses under control. You are at least attacking me about my lack of knowledge about a subject not often covered. That's far more preferable than your attacks on certain posters because of their religious beliefs.
Here is what I find very puzzling. RoninBayside said in your absence that YOU attacked people for their beliefs. I didn't believe him, of course. Now YOU are attacking MIKE for that. And Ron and Mike attack each other constantly. Set the record straight -- what is going on here? Who are friends and who are enemies?
AEM7
To set the record straight about Ron in Bayside, I received a chain e-mail from a friend. The thrust of the e-mail was to boycott a US Postage stamp the honored a particular religious group. Rarely do I read posts that are forwarded to me and its even rarer that I pass them along. Suffice it to say that this one got passed along to many on my Subtalk list by mistake. Once I realized that it was forwarded, I sent apologies to all that received it. Ron chose to sieze upon that incident to brand me a racist.
Yes it does because I don't. I DO however remember you saying nasty things about Islam after 9/11. Of couse you know everything and are way above throwing out a HERRING in order to discredit someone.
He has done so repeatedly, both on-line and off-line. I can recall offering specific constructive ways to support our troops in Afghanistan and support our nation's efforts to increase readiness for terrorism response. Train Dude's specific response to that was a flippant dismissal. He preferred Muslim-bashing, at that time.
If he has changed his attitude since then, that's great.
Arti
Arti
Not creating flame wars. (should have probably included talking about PATH)
Arti
Can you blame him? I've read/seen the gruesome details of many transportation accidents in books, reports, and other evidence, but I've never been on a scene when someone was actually killed, live. Train Dude has seen many more accidents first-hand than I have. But the WTC attacks were unprecendented. And he was IN NEW YORK CITY when it happened. He was probably in shock (yes, that does happen, even for the best managers).
In retrospect, I did some things in shock too. Not stupid things. If you were ever wondering who was responsible for that American flag under the Dome pictured in The Tech a few days after 9/11... (I wasn't responsible for the one on TOP of the Dome, but the one under it).
AEM7
Agreed with statement. The trouble with that here is that his pronouncements were really no different than attitiudes he had displayed before.
Also, his denial of responsibility just now is more consistent with long-standing prejudice than shock.
"Just think what it could be like if the discussion wasn't so juvenile. Several real subway experts I know won't touch this place with someone else's 10 foot pole."
I think the juvenile behavior has only gotten worse, as well as continued use of Subtalk as a chatroom and instant messaging.
I wonder whether people would hit the POST button so often if they were paying for each post they put up here.
That might be a good scheme, but then I might not post at all. Whether that would be a loss remains to be seen.
If I'm going to spend time writing a long/quality post, it's going up in a webpage and/or a publication -- not on a bulletin board forum.
AEM7
You can do that on this site too.
Elias was one of the "41 to correct spelling/grammar flames "
So I responded with a combination role of the "6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive " and "8 to accuse posters of being pedophiles "
I was expecting Elias to be on the ball and play the role of the"12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy " but for some baffling reason he totally missed the lead in and messed up the joke.
And if you still don't believe me look what CharlesG posted Here.
I quote "Oh please, why don't you just take some time away from molesting small children and answer his question."
I don't see you yelling at him.
So No-brain Dude, why don't you explain how you failed to see the BLATENTLY obvious context of that post. Is your web browser unable to display links to previous elements in a thread, are you just lazy or do you just like misrepresenting the facts.
To set the record straight, that was not the only time I had seen off-line communication of that sort from you.
"Once I realized that it was forwarded, I sent apologies to all that received it"
Wrong. You only reacted after you were called on it.
"Ron chose to sieze upon that incident to brand me a racist."
I condemned your advocacy of racist attitutes and policy. This was not an innocent mistake or gesture by you. Please be a mature adult and accept your responsibility in that.
There are no enemies here as far as I am concerned. I play with Jersey Mike and he with me. He is not an enemy; he's a very bright guy who does have some issues (don't we all)?
Independent, resolute, resilient till last, the Great AEM-7. NEVER, EVER, A TRACTION PACKAGE, OR EVEN A PIECE OF WIRE FROM ALSTOM.
AEM7
:0)
If you wanna have a fight, cream pies (your choice of flavor) seem like the perfect weapon.
BTW, the plural of trolley is is trolleys. When Y is preceeded by a vowel, you do not drop the Y and add "ies".
The banter between RoninBayside, Jersey Mike, American Pig and others here didn't strike me as playing around. It seemed more like personal attacks, which add to an uncomfortable tone here. If it's just playing around, it's even worse.
I'm again reminded of David Pirmann's observation about the juvenile nature of some of the posting here. Other than Harry (High Street) doesn't anyone else seem to be bothered by this?
"The science of these GROUPS revealed!" would have been SUFFICIENT ringing of the cluephone and final exams, but once again I'm dumbfounded at how (aside from many sidegags that I enjoyed almost as much as that tape you sent!) there is a small group of people who are VERY bright, bring GREAT information and thought stimulation to us all, but insists on trashing their own souls just to stab at one another like something out of "Wrath of Khan" just for the sake of stabbing. :(
Imagine how much more fun this place could be if we'd either offer opposing viewpoints and disagreement with SIMPLE RESPECT for one another as fellow "whinos, rhinos, and lunatics with a damned TRAIN fetish" and realize that the person you're attacking is just as SICK as you are with this silly "train thing" ... heh. I'm not well at all, I challenge ANYONE to PROFF themselves as being more sane than the rest of us.
We're one BIG dysfunctional family ... and just like the annual GATHERING of that "family from hell" we *CAN* break off into smaller groups in different rooms and just IGNORE Uncle Bert who has gas, Aunt Martha who CANNOT resist the urge to pull cheeks, and of course Uncle (insert name here) who waves his ... ummm ... viagra ... If Uncle Mordechai honks you off, then just LEAVE the room and ignore him. If Aunt Heloise insists on putting her hand down your pants to "see how much you've grown" then walk away ...
Something this ex-Bronx boy learned in living with some Mohawks and Iroquois ... walking away in silence *IS* an ANSWER! It is a VOTE! It MEANS something ... rather than RESPONDING to twits, let them die off in a world where no matter WHAT they post, ZERO responses ... none, nada, nugga. Ask yourself ... how many in your *OWN* family do you ignore and never talk to? We've ALL got relatives like that.
Subtalk *IS* a family ... "be governed accordingly."
And for those of us who have already JUDGED the motivations of someone else and have decided to flip them off entirely, why are you still JOUSTING with them? The GREATEST penalty for humankind is being OSTRACIZED ... IGNORED ... a NON-PERSON ... if the "hate thang" is what anybody's into, then "depriving them of your essence" Jack D Ripper style would be the PERFECT revenge for those whom you've "flipped the twit bit on" ... I just don't GET why the jousting continues past the FIRST "phuckyou" ...
Killfile'em, ignore'em, whatever you choose ... but if people irk you, why are you PLAYING with them in the first place? ... HEY KIDS! WOO! WOO! SLANTS on the Flushing line! :)
This message brought to you by Barney the Dinosaur. Bow, or be EATEN! (grin)
Regarding the Elias thing all I can say is that your hypocracy knows no bounds. I had no prior knowledge of what he did or who he was. I didn't even look at who posted the message when I replied. I try to treat people on Subtalk based on the content of their posts, not who they are or what groups they represent in real life (but I will not deny exceptions to this). Moreover, Elias' post was an ACTIVE PARTICIPATION in the joke making him liable for any responce within the bounds of the joke. I point you to CharlesG's previous post, that I was ripping off BTW, where he called ME a child molestor. By the standards you set forth in your own post you should be condemming him as well.
Your calls for censorship for non-serious tomfollery seeking to poke fun at Subtalk metaphysics makes you nothing but a PC thug.
And WTF? What do you think Judaism "knows?"
AEM7
Arti
Your knowlege of Middle Eastern religions is nonexistant. Christianity, Judaism and Islam all worship the same God.
AEM7
AEM7
"The prophet Elijah had a contest with the prophets of the false god Baal. When Baal did not answer their prayer Elijah ridiculed belief in this non-existent god."
"Jesus said that nobody is able come to God except through Him. If His claims are true, then, by definition, all claims to ultimate truth by other religious leaders are false."
I dare say, but could Jesus have been another false god, and what if Elijah was mistaken and Baal was really a true god?
What people consider "ultimate truth" is a function of the culture that they live in.
SO MUCH FOR RELIGIOUS STEREOTYPES
Michael, revenge is a very poor motive for doing anything. Much like Albert Einstein's opinion of sex ("the pleasure is momentary and the position is rediculous.") If you really feel you've been wronged by me try ignoring my posts instead of finding frivolous points to dispute. Eventually I'll make a big enough mistake and then you'll have your opportunity to nail me. Until then, why not enjoy the venue instead of waiting to spring some imaginary trap.
Except it wasn't Einstein who said that. It was Lord Chesterfield (1694-1773), and his actual words were:
"Sex: the pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable."
I'm bothered by this. Every now and then I complain, but get ignored.
It's particularly sad to me that some of the most juvenile (and that's a libel on kids) posters also have a wealth of information and interesting ideas. When a pure ranter gets outrageous, I can just decide to ignore his posts, and so could everyone else. But these guys have interesting things to say amid their attacks.
My feeling is, if someone says something here that I object to seriously, I say so, and then I drop it. The constant harping on past sins is pointless.
You're taking this far too seriously. There's really nothing to it.
"It seemed more like personal attacks, which add to an uncomfortable tone here."
Move on.
No he is not, there is something to it. You're problem is that you are rude, condescending and a grade A asshole, but no matter how many people try to tell you, you consider it "playing" and you continue to act like a piece of shit. Maybe if you stopped "playing" then maybe you'd realize what makes you so reviled and you wouldn't need to be the subject of attacks.
Move on.
Move away
Jersey Mike should learn some of my tactics! For example, I use thrystors and I have dynamic brakes, unlike the E-60's!
AEM7
Oh wait!! ::slaps head:: Anyone who questions Train Dude should be punished for their audacity.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
The nice thing about standards is that there are so many from
which to choose. Obviously there isn't universal agreement about
what is safe and what is unsafe, for if there were, all local
buildings codes would be functionally identical!
That the Port Authority of NY & NJ is exempt from NYC building
code doesn't mean that _no_ code is being followed. I'm sure
if you examine the construction specs reference is made to some
well-accepted code, such as NFPA. Give me about a week and
I could find out exactly what code is used and when.
The NFPA code is very good, it is well thought out, and provides for a safe building...
The FDNY code is much stronger, providing for more robust buildings.
Point in case (about 25 years ago or so) therewas the Stauffer's Inn fire in Westchester. That building was built in Westchester, instead of 1000' feet to the South in NYC, explicitly to avoid the more stringent, more costly FDNY codes. About 30 people were killed in that fire, in a fire that COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED under the FDNY codes.
NYC requires the walls to go all the way up to the floor above, thus compartmentalzing the plenum space. NFPA codes permit walls (partitions actually) to end at the celling, permitting an open plenum over the whole floor.
The fire was in the plenum, and it reached thousands of degrees before it burst out into a different room.
IIRC, the WTC permitted SHEET ROCK enclosures for the fire stairways. Do NYC firecodes require such stairways to be enclosed in concrete or brick? I do not know.
Elias
In some cases NYC codes (not just fire, but construction,
plumbing, electrical, etc.) are more restrictive than corresponding
national codes, and in some cases more lenient, because they
are out of sync. For example, for quite a few years, until the
recent update, the NYC electrical code was much more relaxed about
Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter outlets vs the NEC.
Shouldn't GFCI's (I assume these are the same as RCCB's, or Residual Current Circuit Breakers) be installed at the circuit level, and not the outlet level? If I were building my own house, I think I would use RCCB's at the circuit level, that way all my outlets are protected.
AEM7
You can buy a lot of GFCI outlets for the cost of a single GFCI breaker, and that gives you finer granularity.
The NYC electrical code has a bunch of oddities - one of which is that general-purpose 20A receptacles are prohibited. You can use #12 wire, but you can't have a 20A outlet or a 20A breaker. Must be from being next door to Canada (they have similar issues w/ 20A receptacles - they don't allow T-prong outlets, so you can't plug a 15A cord in their 20A outlets).
The purpose of a GFCI outlet in a home is personal safety. The device need only keep you from being injured by current, nothing more.
But can they withstand a 757 with a full load of jet fuel?
(Actually, I doubt if anything can.)
Elias
I've read some criticism that the World Trade Center's stairways were extremely narrow. I've also seen an article that claimed that the doors leading to the roof were bolted shut, supposedly to prevent suicides and vandalism to the communication equipment on the roof. If true, it's as bad as the conditions that led to many deaths at the Triangle Shirtwaist factory fire.
I don't understand why any building is exempt from the city's building and safety codes.
It might not have mattered. From what I heard, helicopter rescues off the roof of the North Tower would have been nearly impossible given the smoke and rising heat from the fire just a few floors below. Note that there was never any attempt made to put rescuers onto the roof in an attempt to open the doors.
Sadly, the jurisdictional problems between the two agencies was a factor in the 2001 disaster. Police helicopter observations about the condition of the towers never reached the fire department.
This isn't to say that they couldn't do more, but the 1993 WTC car-bombing was a huge wake-up to the PA and PATH in particular. There is only so much that could be done to retrofit safety systems into existing buildings like the WTC towers. And I'm not going to pass judgement on whether everything that could reasonably be done was indeed done.
The MTA and NYCT are exempt from all local regulations, including NYC building, fire and health codes. How safe are NYCT operations and facilities?
I've seen several instances of fire code violations by design and more by every day practice.
Have you suddenly gotten religion? :-)
For the MTA:
NYS Public Authorities Law S 1266. Special powers of the authority. In order to effectuate the purposes of this title:
4. The authority may establish and, in the case of joint service arrangements, join with others in the establishment of such schedules and standards of operations and such other rules and regulations including but not limited to rules and regulations governing the onduct and safety of the public as it may deem necessary, convenient or desirable for the use and operation of any transportation facility and related services operated by the authority or under contract, lease or other arrangement, including joint service arrangements, with the authority. Such rules and regulations governing the conduct and safety of the public shall be filed with the department of state in the manner provided by section one hundred two of the executive law. In the case of any conflict between any such rule or regulation of the authority governing the conduct or the safety of the public and any local law, ordinance, rule or regulation, such rule or regulation of the authority shall prevail. Violation of any such rule or regulation of the authority governing the conduct or the safety of the public in or upon any facility of the authority shall constitute an offense and shall be punishable by a fine not exceeding fifty dollars or imprisonment for not more than thirty days or both.
While R-10 car #3274 was "shaken" up a lot here in the disaster, car #3333 took a big hit on its side, leaving a gaping hole that was caused when it hit the center dividing wall. It made a BIG mess of things on the IND line around the Columbus Circle area, and the two wrecked R-10's would later first be towed up to the southbound middle storage track between 72nd Street and 81st Street, and then finally up to 207th Street Yard.
It was said that the hand brake in one of the R-10's on that train was the culprit of the accident, and two years later, car #3333 would be seen on Coney Island Yard awaiting to be scrapped. Check out image numbers 2575, 2576 and 2577 on the R-10 car picture section, as photographed by our own Bill "Newkirk" to see how gruesome looking the aftermath of how car #3333 really took a hit!
As an off-topic post-script, on the next day on Wednesday, December 13, 1978, I was watching on WABC-TV Channel 7 at home an episode of my all-time favorite game show "The $20,000 Pyramid" with celebrity guests Anita Gillette and David Letterman [production number #1181], which was originally taped inside ABC's Studio TV-15 at West 58th Street, two blocks away from the IND 59th Street-Columbus Circle station. For some unique and odd reason, whenever I watch this same exact episode again in reruns on cable's Game Show Network (and now in my private VHS tape collection), I always associate that telecast with the R-10 wreck at Columbus Circle of 1978.
-William A. Padron
["Thank you very much, Bob Clayton"]
I'd find it even MORE interesting if you happened to have taped the Pyramid show
which was TAPED ON the day of the incident.... (shame the nets dont put
Production DATES on their credits...
Having the 1 that AIRED on that day is cool rad...
-William A. Padron
["BASADA, Inc."]
That was our lone respite during a day of nonstop railfanning. I rode on the R-10s and BMT standards for the first time that day and actually noticed our train blowing past a local stop. Only I don't remember which train it was - probably an A or an N.
The fare will be $7.00 off a Metrocard for a subway-Airtrain ride; $2.00 for the subway, $5.00 for the Airtrain. BUT with the six for five discount, the MTA only gets $5.83 in exchange for putting $7.00 on a Metrocard. So if the Port Authority gets the full $5.00, the MTA only nets 83 cents from anyone smart enough to put $10 or more on the card.
Who said the subway was expensive?
Hopefully our heroes have already thought of this and closed that loophole. Otherwise, PA could just hire people to go out and buy discounted metrocards and swipe them on Airtrain so they could improve their profitability.
CG
CG
Assuming that PA gets $5 for every air train ride, one partial solution could be to reprogram MetroCards to differentiate between bonus $$ and paid $$. So if I pay $10 for a card, then I get $10 paid dollars and $2 bonus dollars. The Port Authority would only be allowed to deduct paid dollars from a Metrocard. Now granted if I pay for two Air Train rides with a $10 Metrocard, I will still be able to get a free subway ride out of it, meaning MTA NYCT makes $0, but thats still better then MTA NYCT making -$5, which would be the case described in a different post if people bought the cards from MTA and used it solely for Air Train. What would happen whn the Metrocard was swiped...on MTA subways and busses, they deduct bonus dollars first, then paid $$. On Port Authority facilities, they could only deduct paid $$. So if I bought a $10 Metrocard, ride Air Train twice (deducting 10 paid dollars, leaving the two bonus dollars), then I could ride the NYC subway with the remaining $2, but I would not be able to enter WTC PATH station with that card.
Another Air Train payment issue.....Metrocards are great for those who connect to the subway or bus at Howard Beach and Jamaica, but what about those who choose the LIRR from Jamaica to NYP? In my transportation classes, we are encouraged to shy away from anything which will require people to have to purchase tickets seperately. I want to say that I think LIRR TVM's do sell Metrocards...but I'm pretty sure only $4 cards are sold....they really ought to sell $5 cards for use on AirTrain. THey could also have JFK airport as a destination, and sell a ticket to Jamaica printed on a Metrocard with $5 on the card. They should also be selling these combo tickets at ticket windows as well, additionally, it wouldn't hurt to have some LIRR TVM's at JFK airport itself. Newark Air train sells the combo NJT/Air train tickets with the mag stripe on them, I don't see why LIRR can't do the same....although a lot of us here know that NJT from NYP to EWR is cheaper if one pays seperately, buying a ticket to N. Elizabeth from Penn :)
When you transfer between a private bus line and the subway,
I believe the private line gets 83 cents for the ride. However,
from the retail standpoint, it appears that the bus ride costs
$1.50 and the subway ride another $0.50, or in the other direction
the subway ride is $2.00 and the bus ride is free.
Metrobus deducts 85 cents from the bus fare with a transfer. Fairfax Connector does as well...however they put in a stipulation that every rider must pay at least 25 cents. Thus, on express routes where the fare is high, an 85 cent discount applies. On Routes 950 and 980, which connect Herndon with West Falls Church, the Fairfax County government made an exception to the $1 base fare and only charges 75 cents for the ride. So in aeffect, the ride should be "free" with a transfer, but you still have to pop a quarter in the farebox when boarding at West Falls Church with a Metrorail transfer.
I don't know for a fact that the PA gets the whole $5.00. It could be $4.17, as you say. I wouldn't call that fair (I think it should be $2.00, like the subway, or better yet $1.50, like the PATH), but I would call it less unfair.
Still, I think it's a question someone should ask, to make sure.
The brochure doesn't say $5.00. It says $7.00 from Manhattan. That's what prompted this concern -- does the MTA get only 83 cents?
(Compared to the price of a cab?)
Let's say the four people in my family were going somewhere. We could take the F to the A/C at Jay Street to the Airtrain for $28 (actually $23.32 or something with discounts) or take a car service.
Not relevant to the business traveler? It is if they are coming in in a group, or if the hotel doorman groups them in a cab.
That's one-way. Round-trip you'd be paying $56 before the discount or $50.91 after the discount.
Or, if you have a car, you could drive. Parking at JFK costs only $5 per 12 hours, with AirTrain rides tossed in for free, so if your trip is shorter than five days, you'd come out ahead.
There's another way to look at AirTrain fares. If the four of you were flying somewhere out of JFK, you'd be spending at least $600 to $800 on airfares alone, quite possibly more than double that amount. AirTrain's fare is largely insignificant as a component of your total travel cost.
Not everyone going to JFK is getting on a plane. A good chunk
of the market is those who work at the airport facility itself
and commute daily. They are getting a raw deal.
No, they are not. They are getting a monthly pass. And if their employer pareticipates in TransitChek, they can pay the $40 fee with pretax dollars. This translates into a further 25-40% discount.
From Howard Beach to JFK? I doubt you'd see a cab fare of $5 for that distance -- certainly not with two or three people in the cab.
Not that you could find any cabs at Howard Beach.
And if you got a taxi at JFK and asked the driver to take you only as far as Howard Beach, he greet you with a nice loud
Chiya Re Gwaar gana istande!
Translation: look near the bottom of this page.
You swipe it once when you board the Subway in Manhattan, you then exit the Subway at Howard Beach and enter the JFK Airtrain fare zone.
You again swipe your Metro card to pay the $5 Airtrain fee.
Does this mean that if you get on at Howard Beach and want to go to Jamaica, by changing at Airport Circle, you pay $10.00? That would be cruel (therefore it is likely to be true).
After going through that very nice exhibit, I noticed that the scence museum had a train roost, essentially a viewing room with tall glass windows and telescopes overlooking the tracks leading into the station. It was, I believe, three stories above the tracks. A loudspeaker lets you listen to the Kansas City rail dispatch center as they talk to train engineers. Various signs show you pictures of locomotives and freight cars and explains how to identify them. A sign stated that over 150 trains per day pass by.
A long hopper car consist headed by what looked like two MAC 90s came by, and Amtrak's Ann Rutledge rolled into the station (Chicago-St. Louis - Kansas City) while I was standing there.
Great spot for young rail buffs.
The cars are 1453 and 1452, with 1453 on the Princeton end.
This Is What I Live For...
Do you mean the ascending musical scale? I never saw the R143 Siemens but Siemens trains that I rode in other cities had that.
Da Hui
Da Hui
Then just like that, 324 passed through a time portal and wound up in 2003 - at Shoreline! Guess who was in the cab - Selkirk! He took the damn-the-timers attitude and wrapped the controller. We took off like a shot down the track. When it came time to stop, he deferred to Lou from Brooklyn, even holding the controller down until Lou settled in. Then it was, "Hey Kev, how's it going?". No mooing, though.:)
The best part came last. Get this: in my dream, Shoreline had not just 1689, but three other R-1/9s, including 491 aka 401!!! Talk about paradise for anyone wanting to play conductor! Makes you wonder how fast a four-car train could go there, given power limmitations.
But thanks for the chuckle nonetheless ...
I thought you were on the conservative side when you ran 1689 last year.
Oh btw, if I manage to tape that radio commercial with the two guys playing cows (Bob and Larry), I'll send it along.
But yeah, as a WORKING Arnine not subject to TWU "we don't CARE if you have the experience, show us your pass number" rules, 1689 is MIGHTY special to me as one that *RUNS* ... but were it NOT for the "rules" and "silliness" (already DID schoolcar, could stand it AGAIN) and the current day mentalities at the TA, my fantasy is bypassing the stupid civil service test and just *DO* one trip on a MOD trip with the "fleet" in the city (yes, I can do the damned "signal test" again, WD10 and all) as a guest of C divn ...
Yeah, right ... AS IF! :)
So 1689's *MIGHTY* special for this ex motor ... (salute, tip of the had and genuflecting to Eddie S, Jeff, Flash, and ALL of the patron saints of the mighty arnine!) WELL DONE! ;)
Believe it or not, I have dreams of BMT standards now and then.
Dewd ... step AWAY from the momentary switch!
I had hazmat training back when I worked in our company's repair shop. It's still good stuff to know in tech support.
So a one way fare is $51.60. Oops...I checked the adult fare...I need to check the student advantage fare since I can save. Boy was I surprised when I saw that the fare was $238 with a student advantage fare!!!! Try it yourself if you don't believe me, the station codes are WAS and ACY. Then I tried round trip fares: $103.20 adult, $238 student advantage! Then I tried seperating the fares....$90 round trip regular adult, $76.50 student advantage. THen I priced the NJT part....$13.20 adult....and you guessed it....$238 student advantage! Just for yucks, I tried NJT one way from PHL to ACY and the student advantage fare was $238!!!! One way!! Thats one darn expensive NJT ticket! I proceeded from that point, thinking it was a bug and that surely it wouldn't actually sell me this $238 ticket! Oh, but no, I clicked book selection, the total price was $238, and there were the boxes to enter my credit card #. I looked at NJT's website and determined that a round trip fare from ACY and PHL is indeed $13.20. I surprised Amtrak's computer system doesn't just put $13.20 for the student advantage fare for the NJT segment...ie, same as adult fare....so one can still book just one reservation for the entire trip, rather then have to book the NJT portion and Amtrak portion seperately (NJT portain as adult fare, Amtrak portion as Student advantage).
Also....I thought all rail fares were supposed to be the same, for the same trip, over the same route, in the same class of service. But it seems that Amtrak's daily Crescent is significantly more expensive then the thrice-weekly Cardinal between Charlottesville, and Washington DC. Regular adult fares are $47 reserved coach adult one way on Crescent, and only $30 on the Cardinal. Makes me want to make sure I travel on SUndays, Wednesdays, and Fridays so I can get this reduced fare! Its also less expensive on the cardinal then the crescent going all the way to NY ($133 vs $85). Anyone know why that is? I thought one of the advantages of Amtrak being govt. operated and owned was that these "fare games" that the airlines play didn't apply to Amtrak....we all know its much easier to exchange an Amtrak ticket then an air ticket...I think I changed my Thanksgiving tickets at least 4 times....
This is a pricing error. Write a letter to Dave Gunn's Washington Address and put Attn: VP Marketing. Pricing is on his agenda and he'll have the Revenue dept check out that bug. AEM7
Thank you for your inquiry.
Student Advantage fares are not good on NJ Transit, if you request a
fare on NJ Transit using Student Advantage the fare will be very high,
please remove the Student Advantage and request the fare as an Adult, and
you will recive the correct fare.
For further information and reservations please contact us at 1 800 USA
RAIL (872-7245).
We hope this information will assist you.
Sincerely,
Chandra
Amtrak Customer Service
---------------------------------------------------
I'm responding, I dont understand why amtrak can't fix the problem, the average person wouldn't know.
The point of buying the tickets from Amtrak as opposed to buying them from a NJT vending machine is to get the through fare...and to save time by not having to buy tickets twice. So essentially, they are telling me that either: a) I should pay full fare from DC to Philly instead of getting my 15% discount, b) I should purchase tickets seperately, meaning I'll have 2 reservation numbers, and added hassle picking up my tickets, since i'll have 2 transactions at the Quik-Trak machine, or c) its a fantastic plot to scam money from unsuspecting students to fund their underfunded railroad.
Its ticks me off that they basically admitted they know about the problem, and aren't going to fix it. I shall be writing to David Gunn about this.
Now, interestingly, you can through ticket from Amtrak to MARC and SLE as Amtrak operates and tickets MARC and SLE although I would never try it citing your sort of experiance above.
Anyway, I don't think Amtrak really grasped the problem when what's his name e-mailed them. You need to send Amtrak another e-mail and explain to them that there is a BUG in their pricing system, explain the prices you're getting and that it has nothing to do with getting %15 off the NJT trip.
My point being: for someone who doesn't know about the glitch and is booking through the website, they would end up paying more for their ticket, thinking they were saving money.
For the average person, they wouldn't know any better.
Michael
Washington, DC
They are, as a general rule. The Crescent and the Cardinal are two distinct classes of service, however. In particular, food service on the Crescent is a notch higher (full diner vs. dining-lounge) and it caters to the sleeping car passengers. The Cardinal is more of a "local" that just happens to go a long ways rather than a true through train.
Compare the Carolinian vs. Amtrak's Silver Service trains between New York and Rocky Mount, North Carolina (where they diverge) and you'll see a similar difference. I'll pay the extra bucks for the Silver Service trains any day.
You might have also run into a "rail sale", which they list in a special section of their website but which also applies automatically if you happen to select the particular train to which it applies from the main section.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I did some more investigating and found this out:
Charlottesville, VA to New York, NY:
$133 via train 20 (Crescent)
$85 via train 50 (Cardinal...only recently extended to NYP)
$119 via train 20 and 86, changing from Crescent to a regional in DC.
The best thing is the train times: Changing from the crescent to the regional only gets in 15 minutes later, despite the layover tiem of over an hour in DC! I guess regionals go faster since they don't have all the baggage cars and "Amtrak express" cars like the long distance trains. I'd probably prefer that last route since its cheaper and as for food service, Union Station's food court is tough to beat! Of course this all assumes that the crescent arrives on time, but if it was late, i'm sure exchaning the ticket for the regional train wouldn't be too hard...
You should come to the UK, the country where:
- Three return tickets (BHM-DBY, DBY-SHF, SHF-LDS) are cheaper than one (BHM-LDS).
- The same journey costs different amounts in opposite directions (cf BHM-EPS and EPS-BHM - although bizarrely EPS-BSW costs the same as BSW-EPS).
- A fare including a supplement for going a dopey route is cheaper than the normal fare (cf MAN-London Route: Any Permitted [ie NOT Chesterfield] and MAN-London Route: Chesterfield).
- You can often get away with riding the train before your ticket is valid because the guard is as bamboozled as you are.
Using separate tickets on a thru train is no longer permitted under NRCC. NYP-TRE-PHL via NJT/SEPTA is cheaper than NYP-PHL via 2V.
The same journey costs different amounts in opposite directions (cf BHM-EPS and EPS-BHM - although bizarrely EPS-BSW costs the same as BSW-EPS).
It's the commuter/reverse commuter thing.
A fare including a supplement for going a dopey route is cheaper than the normal fare (cf MAN-London Route: Any Permitted [ie NOT Chesterfield] and MAN-London Route: Chesterfield).
So it should be. Demand-based pricing. If you want to travel MML, we're going to give you a discount, because it takes longer and you get to ride suckier units.
You can often get away with riding the train before your ticket is valid because the guard is as bamboozled as you are.
They were anal when I was last there.
AEM7
As if anyone would notice or even care. When I tried that specific example, I got a bit of a whine from Birmingham NS booking office, but they couldn't prove that I didn't want to break my outward journey twice. The "ticket barrier" at Birmingham NS saw my first ticket, the guard (who came round between Derby and Chesterfield) saw my second and the ticket barrier at Leeds City saw my third. The only way that anyone could have detected this would be if the ticket barrier staff at Leeds City took out a pocket calculator and a copy of the timetable and cross-referenced it with the sale time on my tickets - even then I could have claimed to have collected them the previous afternoon.
The return was even funnier. The guard came round between Wakefield Westgate and Sheffield, so I gave him my first ticket. He came round again between Chesterfield and Derby and didn't ask me for another ticket!
It's the commuter/reverse commuter thing.
It would only be that if Birmingham NS to Epsom were the more expensive direction. In this example, the "reverse commuter" gets charged extra. And no-one would commute that length of journey anyway, so it should have more to do with long-distance travel than anything.
So it should be. Demand-based pricing. If you want to travel MML, we're going to give you a discount, because it takes longer and you get to ride suckier units.
I prefer MML's sucky units to the pre-Pendolino WCML junk. And MML give out free coffee - just as well seeing how long their trains take. MML wouldn't take that long if they had the sense to not fall for Snottingham pressure groups and give the non-stop paths South of Leicester to the Manchester trains.
They were anal when I was last there.
More can't be arsed when it comes to Central Trains. As long as you're nice to them and aren't taking the piss, no-one minds.
Oh, here's an example of dumb Central Trains:
They've split most of the former Stansted-Liverpools at Birmingham (good - it means timekeeping's better). However, on many trains, the refreshments trolley still gets on at Nuneaton Westbound. Duh!!!
Amtrak NortheastDirect from Westerly, RI travelling Southbound.
AEM7
However its not necessarily because of RR policy thats applied to every regional train...its more logistical difficulties being that a shuttle bus has to be used to take pax from the station to the platform....a unique and isolated situation. BTW, I thought this station was Kingston, not Westerly?
Eurostar could be popular as a cheap, quick way between London and Northern France and Belgium. However, they shoot themselves in the foot in a number of ways:
1) poncy check-in times that mean you might as well have gone to City Airport
2) securitimania
3) compulsory seat reservations
4) stupid overpriced pricing schemes and lack of through ticketing
5) the trains being over-built - no-one needs 20 cars - cut it down to 10.
6) the stations being over-built - Waterloo Intl really wasn't necessary - platforms 1 and 2 at Victoria had done the job for years.
"Eurostar could be popular as a cheap, quick way between London and Northern France and Belgium. However, they shoot themselves in the foot in a number of ways:
1) poncy check-in times that mean you might as well have gone to City Airport
2) securitimania
3) compulsory seat reservations
4) stupid overpriced pricing schemes and lack of through ticketing
5) the trains being over-built - no-one needs 20 cars - cut it down to 10.
6) the stations being over-built - Waterloo Intl really wasn't necessary - platforms 1 and 2 at Victoria had done the job for years."
----------------------------------------
Is London City Airport on a Tube line? I was pretty surprised when I heard that passangers at London City Airport could check in 10 minutes before flight time! (Even Eurostar business passangers have to be there 15 mins in advance I think).
The pricing scheme was what I was referencing originally....last summer I looked into taking Eurostar from London to Brussels to visit a friend...just a day trip. I found cheap tickets on Eurostar's website....29 pounds each way....but then I realized that was the British Eurostar site. When I went back and checked USA as my home country, all of a sudden the cheapest ticket I could find was like 120 euros. Can we say strange pricing? Can we say "discrimination based on national origin"? I don't know what laws are like across the pond, but here thats a definite no-no. Then I discovered that they had dirt cheap youth fares, but you had to book through a travel agent....cheapest I found was about $75 US dollars each way.
Then I found that I could buy ferry tickets across the channel on Hoverspeed from Dover to Calais for 6 pounds each way (day-return)!!! My Britrail pass to get me to Dover from Charing Cross + cheap ferry ticket, plus a call to my friend asking her if she wouldn't mind coming to Calias from Brussels for the day = a happy Mike with $$ (and pounds) in his wallet.
Just why did they build Waterloo International anyway, if Eurostars will be rerouted to St. Pancras in a few years when CTRL is finished?
Basically, all the ways you say Eurostar shot itself in the foot are things that Airlines do but RR's dont.....
I called up Amtrak and they made the appointment in 2 minutes including taking down my credit card. I wasted nearly a half an hour on the web site when a two minute call could have resolved my problems.
I later called Amtrak and told them what happend to me on their website. Seriously. I was ready to take an airplane but I really wanted to use Amtrak for the first time in my life. I told Amtrak anyone else would have given up and called an airline. I also told them they are losing MILLIONS on that overbuilt website. Amtrak needs to STOP taking orders on their website and simply provide an 800 number.
Does anyone know the fastest way for him to go from 95 St to Crescent St?
R->4 Av/9 St->F->Hoyt/Schermehorn->A/C->Broadway/ENY->J->Crescent
After Feb. '04: take the R to 59th Street, Brooklyn. Transfer across platform to the N and get off at Canal Street. Then walk to the adjacent J platform and go to Crescent Street on a Jamaica-bound train.
Alternate routes (not to save time, but in case there are delays or diversions over the Manhattan Bridge):
Take the R to 9th Street, Brooklyn. Go upstairs to the F and take it to Jay Street. Go up and over to the Brooklyn-bound platform and take the A to East NY/ Broadway Junction. Go upstairs to the J platform and go to Crescent Street on a Jamaica-bound train.
OR take F to Carroll Street or Bergen Street, get off, and wait for the G on the same platform. Take Queens-bound G to Metropolitan Ave, and transfer to the L going towards Canarsie. Get off at Eastern Parkway/Broadway Junction. Go downstairs to the J platform and go to Crescent Street on a Jamaica-bound train.
: )
Transferring from the Myrtle El to the A or E at Bridge/Jay was also by special ticket obtainable only at el stations from Sumner Ave. to Navy Street.
The reason for this seemingly cumbersome transfer procedure was because there was no free passageway between the Myrtle El and the IND subway at Jay Street. The transfer tickets permitted a one fare trip from the Myrtle El to Lower Manhattan after March 1944 when the Myrtle El's service over the Brooklyn Bridge was eliminated.
From 95th St take the R train to Lawrence St (Metrotech)
Walk out of the system one block to Jay St on the A
Take the A to Broadway Junction (It will run express) where a transfer to the J can be made.
Just make sure you have a unlimited ride MetroCard
This Is What I Live For...
The problem with the C train is NOT that it's local. The A train takes 12 minutes from Jay St to BJ, whilst the C train takes 14/15 minutes from Jay St to Rockaway Av (so, say, 16 minutes to BJ). A 4 minute difference isn't worth it. The problem is that the C train tops out at 7tph in Rush Hour, so you'll be waiting an age for it to arrive.
Now wouldn't it be useful if Lafayette St got a transfer inside fare control to the Atlantic/Pacific/Flatbush complex and the A train only switched onto the Express East of the station...
2) If skip-stop isn't running and you have an Unlimited:
R to Lawrence St
A from Jay St to BJ
J to Crescent St
3) If skip-stop isn't running and you use pay-per-ride:
R to 9th St
F to Jay St (or if a G train's on your tail transfer at Bergen then Hoyt)
A to BJ
J to Crescent St
4) If you fancy a scenic ride
R to 59th St
N to NUA
W to CI
Shuttle Bus to BB
Q to PP
S to Franklin
C to 59th St
D to Yankee Stadium
4 to 59/Lex
N/R/W to TSQ
7 to Broadway
E to Sutphin
J to Crescent
This Is What I Live For...
They managed to run the QJ for years - that must have taken at least as long. And I don't believe that A 207 th St - Far Rockaway takes less time than a J Jamaica - 95th St.
Do you mean there will be 4 R142s from each line sent to the 7?
What about that third rail issue?
Slide down too fast, and the end of the tunnel will be blocked by a wall that you'll crash into!
Did anyone ever actually find out what that building is?
It's still a mystery to me. =(
Amazing.
(Sorry - I just could not resist)
"The NEXT stop is ... MY STORAGE facility.
"Transfer is NOT available to ANYTHING."
"PLEASE STAND CLEAR OF THE WHIRLING SCRUBBER MACHINES."
What the hell is this?
Peace,
ANDEE
No, we're talking about what's being built in the middle of Corona Yard, right next to the maintenance building on the north side.
Peace,
ANDEE
Bill "Newkirk"
Peace,
ANDEE
Not always so...at many construction sites in Manhattan, they rent out office space in buildings accross the street from the site. also, because of the expected duration of the Corona upgrade, a permanant structure might make more sense. After all, they could always change it to some other use at completion.
Peace,
ANDEE
Does this mean that the (7) will have just 16 sets of R-142s?
That's the word! Politics rules. New Tech cars to the #7 and R-62As to the #4. Look for the change by March 2004. The Bronx gets screwed again.
YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!!!
Except it seems that the (7) will only be receiving a handful from multiple lines, so the (4) should still have most of its fleet, right?
Julian
Because the (7) is slated to be retro-fitted with CBTC, and it requires the new-tech trains to do so.
In terms of safety (Yes I don't want to lose my camera), variety, and scenery... :-)
I'm thining about Smith 9th St EL, may be I should go there next week
Good luck!
Now I still havent rode on one of those yet. They seem to be quite a rare sight.
BTW, anybody ever photograph the view from 125th toward Grand Central? Its quite spectacular.
The text read "Good news." and noted that for the first time in 20(!) years, more service will be available. A picture of the Manhattan bridge was the center.
I was too tired to note the full text. I'm sure someone here will have the full text and note any punctuation errors.
Instead of saying "more service" for the first time in 20 years it ought to say "normal service" for the first time in 20 years. As we've discussed here, it is likely that 90 percent of Brooklynites currently riding the subway have never experienced "normal service." And given the state of the subway in the 1970s, only a few die hard old timers have experienced "normal service" that was any good.
They should said
NYCDOT has successfully completed the final stage of the Manhattan Bridge rehabilitation. This means trains that cross the Northside to the 6th ave line will again be available.....
There'll be more posters up in a few days I'm sure so you can all see it.
And now you know why it says "more service." "Normal service" is what most people call the pre-July 2001 service pattern.
: ) Elias
Nonsense. "Normal service" will not be achieved until the system is "finished," and that could be a century from now. Among other things, the SAS must be operating.
But this will be "normal service" as far as the bridge is concerned. Unless, in the long run, "normal service" means not operating over the bridge at all.
The system will not be "finished" until it becomes obsolete, closes, and becomes inhabited by C.H.U.Ds
Further south, spotted Rmadillo consist 6301-6302-6303-6304-6305 lined up in the foreground
waiting to enter the shop/maintenance area.
At South Ferry, as we entered the station, an Rmadillo ( 5 ) consist pulled
up alongside us, and of course I was eyeeing the curved portion of the
tracks and looking into the inner loop areas.... At the first car
position at SF outer loop, a crew was working within the grates of
the first nb moving platform (adjusting the detracting speed/sensors?)...
Nyce.
103A gap filler was not indicating reverse ("extend") due to a mechanical problem.
WHAT does HVB refer to? (there was no tell-tale objects near the sign)..
Hydraulic Valve Base? High Voltage Box? Hungry Vegas Buffoons?
I'm drawing a blank if there was anything "extra" ON the platform there...
It designates a Hose Valve Box for the station cleaner's so they can use fresh water to clean the station with a power hose, look in the area where this sign is displayed (on the platform) you'll see it.... it's covered up inside a small box sometimes they leave em' open.
In the end the area will look great. but,oh,the price of progress in mass transit!
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
of course in all 3 construction situations, business goes up in the end.
But it makes me wonder, for a neighborhood market or store, what are the reasons of their core customer base leaving due to some construction. Are people really that lazy if they're going to walk a half a block or so, and decide not to?
That's a true observation overall - but the individual business in place now may not survive to see the upturn. Lots of small businesses survive week to week with virtually no savings to keep them going in the event of a downturn. They may not survive to ever see the upturn at the end.
A good samaritan passenger gathered all of the kittens back in the box with the help of the other passengers, and got off at Eastern Parkway. She said she was going to find them a home. The incident had everyone in the car talking together which was very unusual for New York.
Many thanks.
hainault
N/R - Cortlandt Street
A/C/E - Chambers Street
E - World Trade Center
N/R - Cortlandt
A/C/E - Chambers
1/2/3/9 - Chambers
2/3 - Park Place
That's just a few. There are really a ton of ways to stop either right at or nearby the site.
If you can't convince them to use the subway, the M6 bus runs from Midtown all the way down Broadway, stopping one block east of the WTC site. The M20 bus, which is normally a little faster, runs from Midtown along 7th Avenue, with a stop in Battery Park City on Vesey Street next to the World Financial Center, just off on the NW corner of the site.
here's the schedule.
NYC Waterway ferry, Midtown - N. Hoboken
Walk through Hoboken
NYC Waterway ferry, Hoboken - World Financial Center
(hmmmm....) :-)
NYC Waterway ferry, Midtown - N. Hoboken
Walk through Hoboken
NYC Waterway ferry, Hoboken - World Financial Center
(hmmmm....) :-)
You can also take NY Water Taxi from West 44th street OR East 34th Street to WFC ;-)
It's hard to change irrational fears, but the subway is competely safe during the day...especially in Manhattan. There is NO part of the subway anywhere in the system that you need to be afraid of during the day. And although at night some people may be a bit nervous in certain areas, even at night the subway is fairly safe, and especially in Manhattan. As for any of the lines near the WTC at any time of the day, also 100% safe.
We'll start between 9 and 10 and take an R1 to Eastwick and I believe the 34 trolley back to CC via Island Ave. Next we'll hop and R2 to Warminster where we'll eat lunch at McBillion$Chain. We'll then catch the next or so R2 back to Fern Rock we'll take photos on the platform and walk around the streets around the Fern Rock BSS yard. Next its onto a BRS trainto 8th and Market where we can board the MFL to the Frankford to get ourselves updated on the demolition / new terminal. After that things are pretty open. I think someone wanted to go down to Pattison, maybe walk around the old Vet and/or head down to CP-PENNROSE. The last official part of the trip will be BSS Express rides until 6 or so. At that point I have a special un-official event planned that will involve the Rt 10 Subway-Way and a chineese food dinner.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Sorry, sometimes I just can't help myself.
See you on the 29th.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Sean@Temple
We agree. We did that on our summer trip.
Also I plan on attending this trip if possible.
Excellent idea.
Been there, done that, while acting as guide for the BERA SEPTA excursion of July, 2002. It was a Saturday, and while the group was discussing a detour with the trolley motorman, he suggested that we stop in at Elmwood and look around. Once we finally found somebody to grant permission, we had the run of the place.
Elmwood Depot yard
work car 2187
work car 2194
Red Arrow 2799
2168
2160
Peter Witt
As in me, not the line...
Today's front page cover of the newspaper can be seen at http://www.endi.com/portada and the report in Spanish is at http://www.endi.com/elpais. The caption is posted below in Spanish:
LAS DEFICIENCIAS en el Tren Urbano, atribuidas a Siemens y que han dejado en el aire la inauguracin del proyecto, podran estar vinculadas a fallas en el proceso de inspeccin de esa obra.Para proyectos como ste se contratan inspectores cuya funcin es certificar que la obra en cuestin se construy con la calidad y siguiendo las especificaciones establecidas.
There you can see my full-size pics. Is it me or do alot of them seem blurry? When viewed at the maximum (regular) size they seem blurry (1792x1200). Is that just normal?
Or should I get my camera checked out? I have a service plan, so if there's something wrong I should get it straightened out.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
But suppose you saved a photo at 300 dots per inch. Your standard computer screen is 800 pixels across, and so 300 dpi would make that one inch take up almost half (well 3/8th actually) of the computer screen.
At 72 dots per inch one inch of photo will take up one inch of an 800 pixel screen.
I will save photos one way for printing on a press or printer, and another way for use on the internet.
It addition to all of this, you have as I explained before, different compression ratios. For the printer, I'd save a high quality file size, where as for the internet I'd dumb it way down. I like to keep my .jpgs well below 100KB each for faster download times.
Elias
I always clean my photos up (I use Adobe PhoroElements) and can increase the sharpness, contrast, and saturation there, as well as croping and adjusting file size.
With .jpgs you can specify the compression ratios: too much compression and you get files that look clumpy, to little and the files are too big to be useful on the internet.
Good shooting!
Elias
I don't know about that. I find digital images to be much sharper than scaned photos. I don't know what it is that causes the fuzziness on some of them, but usually only get it when I crop a photo or try to alter it in Photoshop.
I don't think you should have it with 1702X1200 shots. Maybe it has to do with the camera? Where they altered in Photoshop? That could also cause them to get "fuzzy" if you do certain things to them, like trying to lighten them. I don't know what causes the fuzziness.
I find digital photos generally to be very sharp.
This Is What I Live For...
I prefer that also. I usually try to put a caption for each photo, at least the location anyway. I usually arrange them by location in my permanent imagestation albums. If you take a bunch in one spot, It's easy to copy and past "Zerega Ave" into each photo. Even if you don't say anything else, it's nice to have at least the location.
As for the fuzziness, I see what you mean. See my other posts for possible causes. Do they come out of the camera like that, or do you alter them in any way, once you upload them to your computer? They can get grainy in low light situations, but some of them are grainy in good light situations. Do you take them in 1720X1200 like you said they are, or did you take them in lesser resolution and increase them to 1720X1200 resolution?
Perhaps its because my camera is an older 2.3 MP camera. Megapixels matter more when a pic is at a size like 1720x1200, right?
Ah, that's what I thought it could be. The fuzzy ones are probably the ones you tried to lighten. I had the same problem when I scanned slides on my old scanner. They would come out dark, and then when I tried to lighten them, they got grainy. Luckily my new scanner scans them properly, and they come out bright without altering...now I have to go back and rescan most of them...a job for a snowy weekend after the holidays.
As for MP, I think the larger the MP, the "larger" the size of the photo. My camera is a 4mp camera and the standard photo is about 2288 x 1712 and huge. Yours seem to be about half of that on the best quality, but they still should be crystal clear in proper lighting situations. I think your problem comes in when you try to brighten them up.
There is also the issue of your sensor chips. The older chips could only read one color, and if it was not receiving that color, it was blank.
The newer chips have the sensors stacked to that each location can report whatever color it is receiving.
The nice thing is, now that the new chips are out, they are no more expensive than the older ones. You can see the difference.
Elias
-Robert King
In Charm City we've got 2.5 inches of smow, the TV is overloaded with endless prattle about the capture of Saddam.
At BSM, Santa's Tinsel Trolley begins at 1:30PM.
Streetcars and Santa in the snow, who could ask for anything more.
The snow in Baltimore skipped the sleet for the most part and went straight to rain.
Tinsel went off as scheduled, we got a bunch of visitors who ignored the "white death" weather reports and rode with Santa anyway.
We did have to have the City Yard call in one of the trucks, since the driver happened to park his car overhanging the track. (Despite orders by the City that employees were NOT to block the car track. The truck arrived shortly and the car was moved.
The rain was fun, if your idea of fun was running a Peter Witt with a manual windshield wiper. That takes 3 hands - one on the deadman handle, one either on the brake handle or the wiper handle. The third is cranking the farebox, but we don't use that during Tinsel. :-)
One of these days, Karl, we have to drag you down to Baltimore and BSM. No excuses.
I LOVE the characterizations it gives to each line. It's like a subway horoscope, but a more appropriate name would be "Which Manhattan subway line are you?". Give it a try at: Quizilla.com.
JMZ: You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into the city under the East River, and make a hasty exit soon after. But while the tourists may steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know you're essential to the commuters who depend on you.
FVBD: You are fun, freewheeling and fast-paced. You don't only spot the latest trends; you set them. A free spirit, you're not afraid to wander out to Coney Island with your friends for a bit of surrealistic fun.
123: You are the heart of the city, yet you never take the glory for yourself. You work overtime to get the job done fast and efficiently. You take pride in knowing the city just wouldnt work if you were out of service.
ACE: You are a classic; the quintessential New Yorker. You are cultured and love to travel, though you wouldn't move from New York in a million years. Then again, you may just be a tourist, trying to see all the sights in a single day.
456: You are artistic, a bit whimsical, and less iconic than the train on the other side of the Park. Others may see you as an odd conglomeration of new and old-fashioned ideas, but you realize that's part of your charm.
QWNR: You're a bit of a follower, but you endear yourself to others by tying everything and everyone together and making life a bit easier for all of us. You know how to get the job done, but you also know how to have fun.
My zodiac roll sign is:
You are a classic; the quintessential New Yorker.
You are cultured and love to travel, though you
wouldn't move from New York in a million years.
Then again, you may just be a tourist, trying
to see all the sights in a single day.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
I guess it means that I'm either totally sincere or total bull$#!+
:-)
You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into
the city under the East River, and make a hasty
exit soon after. But while the tourists may
steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know
you're essential to the commuters who depend on
you.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
AEM7
You are the heart of the city, yet you never take
the glory for yourself. You work overtime to
get the job done fast and efficiently. You take
pride in knowing the city just wouldnt work if
you were out of service.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
AEM7
I wouldn't say I'm a follower, but lets see what others think.
N Broadway Line
PS: funny you say that, because many of the people who ride this line seem to be pretty conservative. which means a person with a narrow point of things.. I wouldn't say the lines represents "trying everything and everyone together" I will say, separation... and self-absorbed. I'm particularly talking about the line when it goes in Queens or Brooklyn. Manhattanites tend to be open minded.. as well as people living in the Bronx.. So I will give that More to the IRT/IND lines.. then the BMT.
BTW, IIRC, when this survey came up before, Subtalkers were predominantly JMZ's!
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
You are fun, freewheeling and fast-paced. You don't
only spot the latest trends; you set them. A
free spirit, you're not afraid to wander out to
Coney Island with your friends for a bit of
surrealistic fun.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into
the city under the East River, and make a hasty
exit soon after. But while the tourists may
steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know
you're essential to the commuters who depend on
you.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into
the city under the East River, and make a hasty
exit soon after. But while the tourists may
steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know
you're essential to the commuters who depend on
you.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
You are the heart of the city, yet you never take the glory for yourself. You work overtime to get the job done fast and efficiently. You take pride in knowing the city just wouldnt work if you were out of service.
Would there be a major public opposition to that?
PS When Archer Avenue Subway opened, was the reason to send E there, that the F was already local?
Arti
IINM, pre-Archer, the F train was the Express.
Hmmm, then why E to Jamaica Center then?
Arti
What has this to do with E?
Arti
My suspicions are that the F train would be overwhelmed if it ran to Jamaica Center, whereas the E train would be more lightly used on Hillside. If you put the F train through 53rd St, you'd probably need twice as many F trains as E trains.
Actually, that gives me an idea:
(C) 8tph
(E) 10tph WTC - 8th Lcl - 53 - Queens Exp - 179
(F) 12tph Culver - 6th Lcl - 63 - Queens Exp - Jamaica Center
(G) every other train to Continental
(R) as present
(V) 7tph
(X) 8tph WTC - 6th Lcl - 53 - Queens Exp - 179
I doubt that most of non-railfans even notice it's existance.
What's wrong with oddball s?
Not really anything.
Arti
Rumor has, that those undocumented Es from 179th Street run express.
Arti
David
If you swap terminals, then the oddball E trains would become oddball F trains.
Keep in mind that Archer/Parsons can handle only 12 trains per hour (because the diamond crossover is too far from the station). Since the current E service is more than 12 trains per hour, the "excess" trains have to use Hillside.
NO !!!
The cost of such a change would be prohibitive and would do little to add to the terminal's capacity. I believe that the unusual configuration is because the Parsons-Archer station, under the original plan, was never meant to be a terminal on the upper level. This is evidenced by the 'tail tracks' that extend about 2,000 feet beyond the station.
David
Could you quantify that?
I believe that the unusual configuration is because the Parsons-Archer station, under the original plan, was never meant to be a terminal on the upper level.
Current NYCT thinking appears to be that crossovers should be far away from the platform, e.g. plans for new South Ferry Terminal. Perhaps, Parsons Center was the first example of the TA's new terminal dogma. BTW, Archer upper level is not the first line that stopped short of its intended target. Can you think of any other example of this unusual configuration was used for a temporary terminal in the system's history?
The crossover at 21-Queensbridge was/is located immediately to the west of the station platform. It was not 300 feet from the platform.
WHYYYYYYYYYYYY?
If you're interested, ask the MTA that question, since there isn't anyone here who can give you the real answer.
Write to: Mysore Nagaraja c/O NYCT, 370 Jay Street, Brooklyn NY 11201
J would be the only direct train Downtown. Perhaps the need to change trains would reduce the stigma of express service.
Arti
It's better than nothing
So it's possible that this change would have less public oppposition, than the V/F swap did.
Arti
00,20,40 (E) Jamaica Center
02,22,42 (F) 179/Hillside
04,24,44 (E) Jamaica Center
06,26,46 (F) 179/Hillside
08,28,48 (E) 179/Hillside
10,30,50 (F) Jamaica Center
12,32,52 (E) 179/Hillside
14,34,54 (F) Jamaica Center
16,36,56 (E) 179/Hillside
18,38,58 (F) 179/Hillside
Basically Jamaica Center would get 6 Es and 6 Fs an hour and 179/Hillside would get 9 Es and 9 Fs an hour.
I'd hardly call this "headway" service.
David
David
The trains leaving 179th have a 20 minute headway, the trains going to 179th...well that's another story.
A gap of 1:11-1/2 between two of the trains, that is just sad.
David
The only way to make the "J" more attractive is to add express service on Jamaica Avenue.
N Bwy
Dear Mr. Parker:
Thank you for your letter dated March 23, 2003 regarding the Brooklyn Heritage Railway Association project (BHRA). On March 25, 2003, Mr. Bob Diamond, President of BHRA, informed NYCDOT that he was abandoning this project, five days before the contract expired on March 30, 2003.
Mr. Diamond has spent all the funding NYCDOT has provided, and four years later, there is still no trolley system in place. Aside from the City's budget constraints, we cannot sponsor this project because Mr. Diamond has been unable to demonstrate his ability to successfully manage this project to completion.
If you need furthur assistance or additional information, please contact Jai Therattil of my staff at 212-487-8311.
Thank you.
Now how about that? At least I voiced my opinion, and received a response!
"Doing something that is not shared, is like doing nothing"
Thanks for that informative response and your effort in
doing something other then whining, as most do on this board.
:>) ~ Sparky
Good job!
The answer you got from NYCDOT is accurate. The crux of the situation is very simple: NYCDOT gave him money and a fair shot to do what he wanted. Bob Diamond failed to meet his contractual obligation.
There's a lot of window dressing put around it, but that's the bottom line.
I'm sorry it didn't work out.
Northeast
The Northeast is quiet and cold as a sprawling area of Canadian high pressure moves across the region. Already though, snow is moving into West Virginia and western Virginia where 2 to 6 inches may fall by Sunday morning. Low pressure will develop off the Southeast Coast early Sunday and move steadily northward, strengthening all the time. Rain will turn heavy in southeast Virginia and the Chesapeake Bay area as the snow turns to sleet and then freezing rain in western Virginia. For the Northeast Corridor, warmer air aloft will invade ahead of the advancing storm so Washington, Philadelphia, New York City and finally Boston by Sunday night will go through the transitions from a 1-to-4-inch burst of snow to sleet and freezing rain to locally heavy rain. From west central Maryland, through the Lehigh Valley, to north Jersey and interior southern New England, a prolonged period of freezing rain could occur as the low level cold air holds in place. Heavy snow will advance northward from northern West Virginia and western Maryland, through western and northern Pennsylvania, into Upstate New York. As the low deepens, the wind will increase ahead of the storm from New Jersey to Connecticut and Rhode Island. Sunday night and Monday, the intensifying storm will move from Delaware through New England with strong possibly damaging winds for most of the Northeast, heavy snow from Upstate New York to northern New England and rain changing back to snow in southern New England and New York City. Snow accumulations could exceed 12 inches in the mountains of Pennsylvania and snow totals could max between 18 inches and 3 feet from the Mohawk Valley and Adirondacks, across Vermont and the northern half of New Hampshire, to much of Maine, especially away from the coast. The weather will calm down Tuesday, but a new storm will begin to move from the Midwest into the region Tuesday night. Temperatures should warm up so more rain and less snow will be involved at least initially.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
PS...mebbe your mouse is too vulnerable to these threads?
Go to sleep and WAKE UP!
aww I was thinking to bring my camera tomorrow and get some shots from Smith 9 st and hoping some GO...oh well I'm going tomorrow anyway
One day cities will have large devices that attract air and cause permanent immobile high pressure cells in cities, it will never rain, nor snow nor sleet nor hail. Cities are already artificial, might as well make it complete. If you want snow, move to the boondocks.
I don't attack people around here "in board" either.
Its seems to me that you really have an attitude problem.
By all means you're entitled to your opinion.
I don't know you and you know me.
You're saying I know you?!? You're not that guy on the corner by the subway who hands me my amNewYork newspaper every morning are you?
AND I don't appreciate the way how you respond my post.
Sounds like I'm a candidate for the killfile, but I don't want to tell you what to do.
If you have problem with me or any thing I said here in this board.
What are you asking?
Why u just Act like real man by email me and tell me to my face that you have problem with me and and my post instead act like a SISSY trying to show everyone in this board that "you're all that" with your disgusting filty attitude.
So you're saying that by emailing you, I'm telling you stuff more "in your face" than if you read it here? I disagree with your logic.
I don't know how Dave Pirman put up with filty crappy post and your insults.
He probably has me killfiled.
That's some good advice. I'll have to consider it. Come to think of it, why should I follow that advice when you don't? You didn't like my post and yet you still responded to it. I see a double standard...
This way it will save me the time in talking to ignorant a** like yourself.
No, it is up to you to save your own time. I suggest using the killfile.
BTW, Your fake a** handle really annoys the crap out of me and maybe everyone on this board. I can really tell your not one of them.
How is my handle any "faker" than anyone else's here? Everyone else *loves* my handle. What am I not "one of?"
You're simply just an annoying ignorant a** who try to act smart (which you're not) and fresh.
How am I ignorant? And how am I "not smart?"
Also, I would really appreciate if you would just "GET A LIFE."
What kind of life? A life like you have? No thanks.
Your attitude is really really stinks like an odor of a dead skunk inside the trash can and that really annoys me alots..
After telling someone that they aren't smart, you might want to proofread your writing a bit to make sure that you don't then seem stupid. It seems you didn't do that and your last sentence does indeed make you look pretty stupid, but I'm not going to make a judgment.
http://www.astorialic.org/topics/industry/industry.shtm
Arti
Here's an R-38 at 2nd Avenue.
Here's a confused sign.
Another one.
Upside-down.
Hmmm, what's this?
LOL...was that the JFK super express couple years ago? ;-)
Da Hui
I now have a VERY novel way of getting even with C/R's who do this.
Click
The thud after "Closing doors please" is the sound of my heavy as heck backpack being tossed off the seat and squarely into the doorway.
I agree that it sounds very unprofessional to have the announcements suddenly cut off in the middle of a message, but some of the C/R's on the (6) are very good are cutting their messages off in the Bronx, so it doesn't sound like you're missing anything.
"This. Is a Pelham Bay Park-bound (6) train. Stand clear of the closing doors *ding dong*"
Peace,
ANDEE
Is he throwing his backpack at the conductor's cab as revenge, or is he sticking his bag in the passenger doorway to force him to play the entire announcement?
Words cannot describe how lame he really is when doing that.
If I see him do that (I know what he looks like), I'm definitely kicking his bag off the train and have him run to pick it up.
Regards,
Jimmy
Adam
Telephonics announcement system 101: Once announcemnts are interupted, they (generally) do not continue to play- they're finished.
Uhhhh.......By blocking the doors, you are delaying service. Which is why you're receiving the negative publicity from the people in here.
At 18th Ave around 12:45PM or so, I saw a northbound garbage train of three flatcars with steel dumpsters bracketed by two R-127's. I though garbage trains come out late at night like the revenue trains.
If I should be at the same station at the same time next Saturday, would I encounter the same garbage train, or was this a lucky situation ?
BTW - Nathans was selling Christmas ornaments for 79 cents each, two styles and boxed.
Bill "Newkirk"
Anyway i also saw a garbage train but that was yesterday...it was leaving grand ave. going forest hills bound around 5pm. I was suprised the garbage train was even faster than my R46!
If I should be at the same station at the same time next Saturday, would I encounter the same garbage train, or was this a lucky situation ?
Garbage train? No, didn't you hear, those are the 3rd class cars. It'll become normal service on the Culver line over the next few weeks.
Stepping from a plane at Denver International Airport and being whisked downtown in 30 minutes via high-speed train -- dodging the cab line at the door and the traffic jams on Interstate 70 -- has been developer Doug Jones' dream for 10 years.
But while no one doubts the importance of building a quick avenue from DIA to the heart of downtown, who will pay to build what is estimated to be a $701 million project, called the air train, remains the sticking point.
:0)
The line out to the airport will be the A (for Airport) line. B is reserved for a proposed line to Boulder.
AEM7
The NIMBYS in Ruxton & Riderwood fought the line, claiming that the line would bring "undesirables" (read: those people") into their upscale neighborhoods, plus the noise from the trains would disturb the tranquality of the area. (We did mention during the meetings that "those people" would do exactly what they had been doing - breaking into the houses, stealing the stuff, and stealing a car to take the swag out, but the NIMBYS didn't want to hear that.)
The line was built, but without stops in Ruxton and Riderwood.
So now, after 11 years, guess what?
The residents of Ruxton and Riderwood now want stations!!!!
As to the "noise", here's a comment on that:
The former Riderwood station from PRR days is right next to the tracks. It is now a private house, and the resident (who has been there since 1960) comments that he can't even hear the LRV's when they pass.
He BTW, can't wait for a Riderwood LRV station.
A plan as big as FastTracks can easily go the way of the Second System plan. If something isn't done to hold RTD's feet to the fire, some of the corridors will be unilaterally priortized right out of existence. Look, I want this thing to pass, but not by misleading people into thinking the schedule will go a particular way, when in reality it won't, it can't, and it shouldn't.
AEM7
...Now that's what I call city planning.
As well as being about 30 miles out of the city, the airport is about as big as the city too - the first several miles of the proposed rail line would be inside the airport perimeter!
23 miles in 30 minutes…that’s a 46 mph average speed. Not exactly high-speed, but then again, that term has always been loosely applied (nobody would ever mistake the PATCO “High-Speed Line” between Philadelphia and Lindenwold NJ for the TGV, that’s for sure).
Good to see that they are at least considering FRA-rail for it, what with the references to using Union Station for the terminal. BBD bilevels hauled by Motive Power Inc’s MP36PH-3C should do the trick nicely…
What problems? Please be specific.
What other kind of problems could you have with a locomotive, besides mechanical ones?
Electrical, pneumatic, structural...
David
Wasn't Chicago's Metra having problems with those locos?
That would be quite hard, since they don’t have any; they have the MP36PH-3S. (One of those recently derailed, apparently due to moving across a 10-mph crossover at 60 mph.)
The MP36PH-3C is the version that Caltrain uses on their Baby Bullets; apparently the major difference between 3C and 3S is that the former uses pony-engine HEP and the latter runs HEP off the prime-mover. Caltrain operators (Amtrak employees) that I’ve corresponded with seem to like them better than the F40PHs…
Da Hui
2.in what yard,s is it done on?
3.do all the R42 have the black flooring(with the exception of R42#4665)
4.i also herd here that there are some R38 and R40 that have the black
flooring,is that true?(the R38 don,t deserve the black flooring.the
R40 would look nice with the flooring,but they might get scraped first
when the R160 arrive.)
5.some of the R62 and R68 have the black flooring,will they all have
the black flooring at some point?
til next time
2.in what yard,s is it done on?
It's not done in a yard. The flooring is being done in the overhaul shop.
3.do all the R42 have the black flooring(with the exception of R42#4665)
???????????????
4.i also herd here that there are some R38 and R40 that have the black
flooring,is that true?(the R38 don,t deserve the black flooring.the
R40 would look nice with the flooring,but they might get scraped first
when the R160 arrive.)
????????????????????
5.some of the R62 and R68 have the black flooring,will they all have
the black flooring at some point?
Yes! The first 156 R-68s will have theeir new flooringby the end of 2003. I'm not sure about the timetable for the R-62s
WAIT A SECOND -- IS BLOOMBERG LEANING AGAINST THE DOOR?!
This GO previously was in effect three weeks ago, but I unfortunately missed it due to preoccupation with the return of PATH to lower Manhattan. It apparently was cancelled last weekend due to the snowstorm. Well, it was obviously cancelled THIS weekend as well, possibly due to the forecast of more inclement weather.
Everything ran as usual: alternate A's going to Far Rockaway with connection at Broad Channel for shuttle to Rockaway Park. The outbound platform at Beach 90th had paper signs directing to a shuttle bus. I only had time to ride from Rockaway Boulevard to Park and back, so have no idea whether there were posted advisories of the GO at A train platforms in Manhattan.
Last weekend's GO having all Brooklyn-to-Mahattan Montague tunnel service going over the Bridge instead was cancelled- again, probably due to the weather. But nobody bothered to remove the "No Trains at This Station December 6th and 7th" signs from the stations that would've been bypassed had the GO gone off as scheduled. This caused tremendous confusion on the uptown Whitehall Street platform. In fact, the bulletin board in the token booth at Whitehall still advised of the GO! The station agent didn't seem aware of the rescinded GO.
An interesting sidelight: In the Rockaway Park yard was a full R32 consist signed as an A from 207th to Rockaway Park. I've never known the special peak directional Rock Park A's to be anything OTHER than R44s. And don't those only go as far as 59th? Or is there no 59th Street on the northbound terminal roll?
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-207th St."]
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
I saw one of those a few months ago...
Too bad. On Friday evening, the last two Rockaway Park "A" trains were R32s and R38s respectively.
If the GO did go on as planned this weekend, it probably would have been a bad time to wait for an R38 because they were almost non existant on the Far Rockaway "A" Friday night.
On my way to the ERA that evening, I missed an R38 by two trains. I rode the "A" from Rockaway to Chambers St and I did not see not one R38 on the Far Rockaway "A" the entire length of the trip. The same thing coming back. Funny thing about it I saw the R38s on the Lefferts and Rockaway Park "A"s.
I'm not saying there were not running them, I'm just saying it would have been very hard to catch one.
so have no idea whether there were posted advisories of the GO at A train platforms in Manhattan.
I didn't see one in Manhattan, but I did see a BIG posting at my station out here in Rockaway.
I've never known the special peak directional Rock Park A's to be anything OTHER than R44s.
The Rockaway Park "A" trains have been running R38s since the very beginning. For years, the TA would only R44s on this "A" in both directions Mondays thru Thursday. But on Friday evenings, the Rockaway Park "A" was exclusively R38s. Withing the last two years, the TA started operating R44s to Rockaway Park as well on Friday evenings. Within the last year the TA started adding R32s to the mix.
I don't think they'll be able to make the entrance on the west side of Flatbush Ave bigger, since it's inside a building right?. It would be really nice if they could make the mezzanine roof a little higher, its very stuffy in there when its crowded after school.
Also, are they going to extend the mosaic to the new curtain wall they installed between the express tracks? I guess they're not gonna remove those brown tiles from the local track walls either.
It's coming out very nice, except those floor tiles get dirty quick. I wonder why they didn't use the glossy ones they used at 36th Street (which really brightens up the station too).
De Kalb is my favorite station, btw =D
The tactile warning strips at the edge of the platform are slippery, though.
The graphic clearly states the W Astoria-Whitehall service will run weekdays only. That's all well and good. The text has the B replacing the Q 'diamond' Brighton express with no further explanation. But is the B only to run on weekdays, terminating midday at 145th and continuing to the Bronx during rush as it had been? Will there be seven-day Brighton express service, and two services along CPW seven days a week as well? It's not at all clear as presented.
It's also implied that there will be TWO services, the N AND Q, using the Bridge 24/7. Am I correct in assuming that, during the wee hours when the R historically doesn't run, the N will run local through Montague?
I apologize in advance if I'm rehashing questions that have probably been addressed before. There are two misgivings I can't help but have:
1. Continued harsh winter weather will postpone this service change until March or April.
2. A week or so after the new service pattern begins, new strutural damage will be discovered on the Bridge that the MTA and NYSDOT will blame each other for. It will be deemed unsafe to carry train traffic on one side or the other and we'll be back to either 1985-2001 (south side closed) or 2001-04 (north side closed) conditions again. Remember, we had both sides open for a couple of weeks in fall 1990. THAT was supposed to be the be-all and end-all.
Thirteen years later, we're trying again.
N Broadway Line
PS: Starting February 1st.. I will be "W" Broadway Local. Stay Tune! Bye Sea Beach.. Bye Brooklyn.. Because Queens and Manhattan is here to stay.
W Broadway Local
Now, since my office is at the City Hall station, I will be renaming my screen name to "W" since it will soon be serving this station.
N Bwy
W Broadway Local
Astoria Broadway Whitehall Street
No.. I run my own business and have established an office downtown for a number of years now.
"how long has the "W" been your favorite train?"
Since the first day of service. Before then, I couldn't stand having to wait for a crowded train that ran every 12 minutes during run hours. That hasn't change, but at least I have another option to avoid waiting.
N Bwy - W Bwy Local
PS: When I say I have options, I do.. I normally use the W express into 14th Street for the local connection. Usually an "R" of course... since it seems to run a little more often then the Never "N" And visa versa (R into the W for my trip back home).
I hate to say this ... but when 911 happened and the N and R were canceled... I was happy.. WHY? Because during their absence.. the W and Q ran better..
For instance, particularly the Q line.. when I used it to go into Jamaica... I NEVER HAD TO WAIT FOR IT!
NOW! Since the "Regular" service has returned... THE R and V takes FOREVER TO COME!!!
I often try to figure out what is the difference between the V and G.. except for the fact the G doesn't go to Manhatan.. They both run very similar...
W Broadway Line
I don't have the same sentiments about "V" as you do, however, I did notice that the "Q" (by itself) provided more then what is there now. But what I didn't tell you in the last post was that most of all the trains were practically empty. So, as good as they were, the service appear too much for this cooridor.
Kind of reminds me when the "E" was filling in for the missing "C" in Brooklyn. Great service, but too much to be worth saving.
N Broadway Line
NoCanDo!
Trains from Queens run on the "local" tracks in Manhattan and the local tracks do not serve Christie Street (and Grand Avenue).
Elias
If trains on the local track in Manhattan cannot serve Grand Avenue, then how is it that the V stops there between its stops at Elmhurst Avenue and Woodhaven Boulevard? :-)
Well, lets just say that piece of junky service in nothing but trouble since it was created. That thing doesn 't even worth everyone's $2 fare. I rather paid a one cents to ride that junk.
No Grand St Shuttle would have meant tons of bickering from you and your fellow residents from Chinatown. Grand St actually would have been closed during the entire time the Bridge was under construction had it not been for Chinatown clamoring for service. The Grand St Shuttle was the least they could do.
You got *that* Right.
Except the W will lose most of its identity, namely weekday Broadway express, Manny B and 4th Avenue express. It will, however, continue to perform valuable weekday supporting service to the N on the very crowded Astoria line. I would imagine that's why you really like it.
These changes all take place Sunday, February 1? That's Super Bowl Sunday! Lucky I'm not a football fan. The trains will be relatively empty that afternoon, hence making railfanning much easier.
Da Hui
When I first started posting on Subway Talk, it was about my complaints about the lack of service on the "VERY CROWDED" Astoria line. But after the "W" line was created, I just automatically fell in love with it. It was like a reunion with a person I didn't see in a long time..
N Bwy
N Broadway Line
PS: Starting February 1st.. I will be "W" Broadway Local. Stay Tune! Bye Sea Beach.. Bye Brooklyn.. Because Queens and Manhattan is here to stay.
I suggest a campaign for four beach specials per hour on sunny weekend days and holidays, and on weekdays during non-rush hours. That would complete a true restoration of the good old days.
The trains would relay north of Queensboro, make local stops to Price Street, then travel over the Manhattan Bridge like the weekend Sea Beach. After stopping at 36th and 59th, yhey would then travel non-stop from 59th to Coney Island.
The weekday specials would run to Coney Island beginning after the AM rush hour and ending before the PM rush hour. After the PM rush hour, specials would run in the other direction.
Weekend specials would start at 9 am to Coney Island and 11 am from Coney Island.
I don't think it's a great idea, only because it would be even emptier than the NX was.
Thank GOD my W train is remain so I can maintain my one way trip to City Hall.
N Broadway Line
Note to the MTA, please do not throw me a curve and change your mind.
Congratulations! I hope it turns out well.. With me, I see it good on both side.. Since the "W" runs more often... and it will serve the City Hall Station.. I think we are both getting a good deal.
W Broadway Local
N Bwy
W Bwy
Astoria Lines
Since both run approximately the same hours, it is not that confusing.
It's also implied that there will be TWO services, the N AND Q, using the Bridge 24/7.
The map, and many signs, do not depict night services.
1. Continued harsh winter weather will postpone this service change until March or April.
When has this ever happened? Do you expect this winter to be the return of the Pleistocene?
Remember, we had both sides open for a couple of weeks in fall 1990. THAT was supposed to be the be-all and end-all.
It was not. The plan was to last only a few months and as a result, the Q did not return to Broadway at that time.
I have heard this before, but I can testify to the fact that N service was removed from the bridge in an unplanned way in the middle of a week shortly after Christmas 1990. How long was this routing gonna last anyway?
(I have a 9/30/90 map but I can't seem to locate it. I'd love to see a copy of that brochure.)
Thanks.
As worried as I am about the future of the bridge, I think it will take more than a couple of weeks. Perhaps a couple of decades.
I have nothing more to say but: DUH!
The bridge was damaged because of deferred maintenance, just because the bridge's long GOH may be done, doesn't mean that it doesn't need an SMS.
And they are not based on reality or logic. Do you see bridge service being eliminated now because of snowstorms?
Bridge service will return on schedule. The steel braces installed on the south side have held up as expected to heavy use since 2001 and NYCDOT engineers will continue checking to see how the bridge performs.
Move on. This is getting boring.
Another source is the very fact that subway service has been uninterrupted in that time, across the bridge. Had new cracks been discovered, it is highly unlikely we would have heard nothing about it.
Now the MTA's final bridge plan has been approved. This would not have occurred without NYCDOT's approval, since they are the ones who did the repair.
----------------
I'm coming to New York tomorrow (Monday), staying a week. Want to get together? Email me offline. I'd send you a note coutesy of Queens College or Cooper Union, but I still don't see any mention of you there (and therefore contact information on how to get a hold of you).
The south side of the bridge didn't close until late 1988. From 1985 to late 88, the north side was closed just like it currently is. The difference is the designation of services. Under the 85-88 service, the split B and D services were both called B and D, this time they are B and D on 6th Avenue and Q and W on Broadway.
However, yesterday I was at the fare controls at East 180th, 59th/Lex, Lex/53 and 71/Continental. The poster was not at any of these locations.
Da Hui
But none at Norwood.
Do we have any ideas on what is happening to the (in my opinion useless) V train? And what exactly does the M have to do with the Manhattan Bridge? I've noticed it mentioned on (the non-specific) posters but don't see any changes to its service.
Is the Q still running via Broadway and terminating at 57th St.? If so, why?--Are there any improvements to the Queens Boulevard service? I had gotten my hopes up that we might see at least the Q head out there, maybe replacing the F as the express (with the F replacing the V and the V disappearing)--it would make my excursions to Target much easier.
I'm a little disappointed by the decision to keep the now redundant W service--with it having to terminate at Whitehall, won't it be just as useless as the V currently is (and will apparently continue to be)? I guess the utility of having extra capacity primarily in Manhattan is something to be spoken for in both cases, but the fact that both lines will diverge from their counterparts (the R & F) in Queens can lead to a lot of waiting around for trains which run ridiculously infrequently.
David
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
"For those of you out there shedding crocodile tears at the emasculation of the W all I can say is tough #$%^!!!!! My Sea Beach has been stuck in that filthy Montague rathole for almost two decades and a breath of fresh Manny B air is long overdue. I have always considered my train the Broadway Express in Manhattan and not a damn local. Finally some sanity has entered the picture and the day of deliverance is at hand."
GOOD! Now I can get the kind of service that I deserve!!! The "W" runs better and uses nicer cars.. And I just LOOOOOVVVVEEE IT!!!! HAHAHAA!!!!
W Broadway Line
N Broadway Line
Q still terminates at 57/7, mostly because there is no place to terminate at.
The W is hardly redundant. The R alone could not possibly handle the Broadway local, and the growing ridership in Astoria has rendered the N alone insufficient there. Short-turns at Whitehall are nothing new -- look at the historical maps on this site.
Why would you expect any changes in Queens? With your suggestion, only one of four Queens routes would serve the busy 53rd Street corridor, while two routes would serve the less useful 63rd Street line. Passengers at Queens local stations between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza trying to get to 53rd would have to wait for an R (not an F) to take them to Queens Plaza and then transfer to an E (and if you thought E's were crowded now...).
Your excursions to Target do not dictate service patterns, I'm afraid. Incidentally, is there a Target near an express station? The only one I'm aware of near the subway is at a local station. Take the R or V and be done with it.
Why would someone who apparently lives along the Queens Boulevard line go to a Target in Brooklyn when there's a perfectly good target on Queens Boulevard itself?
Seriously, though, you asked if there was a Target near an express station, not a Target near an express station that would be relevant to the original poster, so I chimed in.
hmmmmmm
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! FINALLY! someone is using their head!
W Bwy Lcl
W Bwy Local
No, not duplication. The 4th Av Local needs two services. Sending one to Broadway and the other to Nassau St may be fine in the morning - you ride the first train and walk from whichever, but which station are you meant to go to in the evening to get back to Brooklyn? This is why the W train would be more useful than the M train (plus it would let West End riders keep their one seat ride to Broadway).
I have posted the same thought myself. But having recently done the crosstown walk on Wall St in miserable weather, I can see the appeal to customers of splintered service. Broadway takes forever to cross. I can see a lot of people preferring to take the M if it's nearer, rather than twice as much service just under Church St/Trinity Place.
I'm amazed it isn't pedestrianised.
People prefer the "M" line, because it has better downtown connections than the Broadway Line.
The "M" also doesn't have the delays that many Broadway lines have. I say that the "M" should stay... and the "W" should not go into Brooklyn... which is the way it is.. And I'm satisfied with this new service plan.
W Broadway Local
There needs to be a least one Nassau Service going into Brooklyn... The "M" is better than the "W" because you already have 2 Broadway service into Broadway. Plus, any delays that occurs in Brooklyn (which is often), at least you still have the W line... The "W" is too important to sacrafice, just so you can duplicate service.
W Broadway Local
Understand SOUTH Brooklyn before anyone points out the J train goes to Brooklyn...
Why? It serves exactly the same part of Manhattan as the Broadway Local, it's unnecessary splitting of service and the trains are too short.
Plus, any delays that occurs in Brooklyn (which is often), at least you still have the W line...
If all the trains are delayed, you just get on the train that should have turned up an interval before it did - no big deal. If there's a serious problem, trains would get short turned.
The "W" is too important to sacrafice, just so you can duplicate service.
No sacrifice involved.
As a subway enthusiast I tend to agree with you. However, you might feel less strongly in your opinion if you have ever had to walk from Wall and Broad St. to Rector and Trinity Place when it is 40 degree F, with a 40 mph wind, and raining at a rate of one inch per hour.
Adding to your discomfort would be a certain degree of trepidation due to the fact that you can't really 100% rely on traffic on Broadway and Trinity Place to stop for red lights. After all, there's no cross traffic that could hit their vehicle.
The problem is the wait in the afternoon. Each of the two lines has infrequent service to Brooklyn. And remember, that is the way to get to Brooklyn for everyone Downtown who rides the Brighton, West End, Sea Beach, or 4th Avenue line. The wait outweights the walk, which is not very far in reality. In the morning, of course, you can take either the M or the R, and just walk from whatever station you end up in.
For my part, in the afternoon I take the 4/5 up to the A/C and down to the F, rather than the N/R to the F. Even with the N and R, the wait is too much for me, especially with the N going express and not stopping at 4th Avenue. If the W ran through to Brooklyn, those who really did not want to walk would have the similar option of taking the J/M/Z up to Canal Street and then riding the N/Q downtown.
Who wouldn't - it's a cool line, especially with it being so overbuilt, except annoyingly for where it needs it - a 4 track Broad St station would be useful:
For my part, in the afternoon I take the 4/5 up to the A/C and down to the F, rather than the N/R to the F.
I do suspect, however, that there is another significant factor of not much liking the prospect of climbing all the way up from the BMT to the IND at 9th St/4th Av.
(I don't know how passengers at the local stops between Court and 36th feel.)
Were they asked whether they preferred that even if it would fragment local service? How about that question put to West End plus the entirity of 4th Av?
My train isn't redundant.. and I don't appreciate you saying that.. It fills a BIG void.. so please stop picking on my line unless you rode the "N" before the "W" was brought in..
Thank you VERY MUCH!!!
W Broadway Local
Hey, what better does a 17 year old amnesia victim have to do at 3 in the morning?
Do we have any ideas on what is happening to the (in my opinion useless) V train?
The "useless" V train is here to stay, because the statistics says your opinion is wrong.
And what exactly does the M have to do with the Manhattan Bridge? I've noticed it mentioned on (the non-specific) posters but don't see any changes to its service.
The M has everything to do with the Manhatthan Bridge changes. Since D trains (D, not B) will run on the West End at all times, and the Chinatown people once again have 24 hour service from Grand Street to Brooklyn, the M will be cut back to rush hour service only.
Is the Q still running via Broadway and terminating at 57th St.?
Yes
If so, why?--Are there any improvements to the Queens Boulevard service?
Yes there are improvements to Queens Blvd service. It's called the "useless" V.
I had gotten my hopes up that we might see at least the Q head out there, maybe replacing the F as the express (with the F replacing the V and the V disappearing)--it would make my excursions to Target much easier.
In that case, can we make the 4 stop at 28th street, kick everyone off so I can get a seat, make the 6 skip that stop, and make the 5 disappear? It would make my excursions to school much easier.
I'm a little disappointed by the decision to keep the now redundant W service--with it having to terminate at Whitehall, won't it be just as useless as the V currently is (and will apparently continue to be)?
I take it you're one of those people who found the addition of V service to Quenns BLVD annoying since you lost your one seat express (or local) ride to/from a shopping store.
The V is here to stay. Get over it.
Get your W merchandise while you still can. I give it 5 years max before it goes the way of the EE (the same exact route, different letters).
I guess the utility of having extra capacity primarily in Manhattan is something to be spoken for in both cases, but the fact that both lines will diverge from their counterparts (the R & F) in Queens can lead to a lot of waiting around for trains which run ridiculously infrequently.
Its amazing how something about the Manhatthan bridge can turn into a rant about the V.
The thing is, the W is a attempt to fill in local service once the N takes its rightful throne as the Broadway Express. So I do have some faith in it.
V line kicks ass. Get over it.
The EE originated at Continental, not Ditmars.
Q Bwy Express
The Q has mature over the years. After being the unforgotten child of the Brighton Line, it now becomes the Full time service. WOW! I'm sure you will continue to be receive well when the changes take place. Although, at times, I would have rather have the Manhattan Bridge to myself. That won't be happening unfortunately, since I would be filling in for late nite service on the Broadway Local line. But I'm use to it.. because I adjust quite well.
D 6th Avenue Express
After being the premiere line of the subway system, the MTA finally gives you the shaft! Now it joins the M/N/R as being one of the most outcasted lines in the system.. But don't feel so bad, the "M" will have the red carpet rolled out for you when you start running into Brooklyn again.
M Nassua Local
You are the most shafted line in the entire system. No one seems to know what to do with you. You are even disrespect amongst your colleagues (J/Z) although people cope with you, nonetheless. You have been given new meaning to service changes, but only the Q has succeeded you.
N Broadway Line
This would be me... You have stuck around in good times and bad. You are always considered second best, although you are very consistant. Also, you have dealt with service changes probably the best of all the lines in the entire subway system and would always be looked at as a line with great strengths.
R Broadway Line
You are the leader of Local service. You do not compromise a lot.. unlike your colleague the "N" line. You are about getting the job done, no matter how long it takes. Although you look forward to the changes, it is more likely you won't be welcoming the "D" line, because you are not familiar with it... And when you are not familiar with something, you turn a blind eye. How do I know this, because when the "M" first came aboard, you refused to share your track space with it. It took several months for the MTA to realize that you two would make a good team. However, you made sure it was on a limited basis.. which is why The "M" remains the only rush hour service in Brooklyn. Moreover, you kicked the "G" out.. and you manage to keep the "V" at a great distance.
W Broadway Line
You look forward to your new arraignment, because you were there at the worse of times. And I'm sure you would be there when trouble occurs in south brooklyn too. Since I look forward to the new changes so much, I will be changing my screen name in February to your line. Also, you hate competition.. and rather keep things balance.. which is why you and the "Q" are thicker than blood.
B 6th Avenue Express
You are looking forward to the changes, but you do not like change so much. You like competition, so you are excited to be paired with the "Q" line. This will give you the chance to show your true talents, but this depends on what cars the "Q" uses. If the "Q" uses the Slants, you can forget it! no chance.. (What I notice about the "Q" no matter what cars this line uses.. they just perform better.. especially the slants) The "D" knows this too well.. you just won't be able to match the speed to be a true express line.. But you won't miss the M/N/R lines.. because they just wasn't a match for you.
N Broadway Line
Q Bwy Express
The Q has mature over the years. After being the unforgotten child of the Brighton Line, it now becomes the Full time service. WOW! I'm sure you will continue to be receive well when the changes take place. Although, at times, I would have rather have the Manhattan Bridge to myself. That won't be happening unfortunately, since I would be filling in for late nite service on the Broadway Local line. But I'm use to it.. because I adjust quite well.
D 6th Avenue Express
After being the premiere line of the subway system, the MTA finally gives you the shaft! Now it joins the M/N/R as being one of the most outcasted lines in the system.. But don't feel so bad, the "M" will have the red carpet rolled out for you when you start running into Brooklyn again.
M Nassua Local
You are the most shafted line in the entire system. No one seems to know what to do with you. You are even disrespect amongst your colleagues (J/Z) although people cope with you, nonetheless. You have been given new meaning to service changes, but only the Q has succeeded you.
N Broadway Line
This would be me... You have stuck around in good times and bad. You are always considered second best, although you are very consistant. Also, you have dealt with service changes probably the best of all the lines in the entire subway system and would always be looked at as a line with great strengths.
R Broadway Line
You are the leader of Local service. You do not compromise a lot.. unlike your colleague the "N" line. You are about getting the job done, no matter how long it takes. Although you look forward to the changes, it is more likely you won't be welcoming the "D" line, because you are not familiar with it... And when you are not familiar with something, you turn a blind eye. How do I know this, because when the "M" first came aboard, you refused to share your track space with it. It took several months for the MTA to realize that you two would make a good team. However, you made sure it was on a limited basis.. which is why The "M" remains the only rush hour service in Brooklyn. Moreover, you kicked the "G" out.. and you manage to keep the "V" at a great distance.
W Broadway Line
You look forward to your new arraignment, because you were there at the worse of times. And I'm sure you would be there when trouble occurs in south brooklyn too. Since I look forward to the new changes so much, I will be changing my screen name in February to your line. Also, you hate competition.. and rather keep things balance.. which is why you and the "Q" are thicker than blood.
B 6th Avenue Express
You are looking forward to the changes, but you do not like change so much. You like competition, so you are excited to be paired with the "Q" line. This will give you the chance to show your true talents, but this depends on what cars the "Q" uses. If the "Q" uses the Slants, you can forget it! no chance.. (What I notice about the "Q" no matter what cars this line uses.. they just perform better.. especially the slants) The "D" knows this too well.. you just won't be able to match the speed to be a true express line.. But you won't miss the M/N/R lines.. because they just wasn't a match for you.
N Broadway Line
ENCORE!!!
To cole, just because you can't get to Target doesn't mean we have to petition to change the subway service to fit YOUR needs. The system is meant to cater to the needs of many, not to the needs of a few.
I've been using the V for about a week and I'm liking it. I actually get a place to sit down.
Well the B and D will be back pretty soon. But I've been seeing some pretty full V trains north of 34th too.
Nobody seems to ask current F train riders: how would you like it if the F went back to 53rd St and the V disappeared? I bet there would be some pretty enthusiastic votes for the V if someone took that survey.
And plus, what would go through the 63rd Street tunnel? The Q? Some Roosevelt Island residents would be pretty pissed at the fact they won't have any direct 6th Ave service.
(F) local - via 53rd St
express - via 63rd
People knew and remembered the F as an express line; the V could still terminate at 2nd Ave for now but be called the F local.
How bad would it be to extend a line up Seinway, then Astoria to the airport
OR--I've been thinking about this lately and I'm not sure if the track connections for it to happen all exist, but it seems to me like it would be more useful if, instead of having both of the CPW/6th Av trains run express and via bridge into Brooklyn and both of the QB/6th Av trains run local and via tunnel/to 2nd Av, it could allow fewer transfers for everyone--direct access from CPW to 14th st., 23rd st., and the LES, and a faster ride downtown for QB passengers. The parallel of both the B and V running weekdays only suggests that the scheduling may be workable, but again I'm not sure if the track switches exist or would possibly be too burdensome.
(sarcasm)
Open up the wall at Lex/63rd and run a shuttle from there to 57th.
Look for posters in the subway and a special brochure in stations soon.
SOON?..SOON? How much longer do I have to wait for that thing to come out..THAT MTA should start to get sleeves rollin. NOW!!!
I no!..I no!. Hold on my horsey. I want that thing NOW..NOW..NOW..NOWWW!
The party was great, we met some nice people, and my other friend and I had plenty to drink. The party began to break up around 1:00 AM, so we dicided to grab some greasy food and coffee at a local diner at 86th and Second Avenue, and then head down to the Grassroots Tavern in the East Village, possibly my favorite pub in NYC. We walked over to Lexington Avenue, and grabbed a downtown (6) train.
Since I was basically leading the pack, I decided we should head towards one of the rear cars of the train, and get off at Union Square so that I could show them the platform extenders in action. My friends were most impressed.
We then walked down to the Grassroots Tavern on St. Mark's Place, had a couple beers, and finaly left the bar around 3:30 AM after last call. I decided to show my friends the glorious ruin of the Chambers Street BMT station only a few stops south. So we grabbed a downtown (6) train at Astor Place. While on the train, I decided we would try riding through the City Hall loop, since I had never actually seen this fabled station before. At Brooklyn Bridge, a well-meaning passenger was getting off and told us we were already at the end of the line, but the doors closed before I could think of a way to explain to her why we were still on the train.
Finally, the train pulled out, and as my friends and I peered through the windows, we saw the old City Hall station. Very impressive, although for some reason it seemed much smaller than I was expecting. It's been years since I saw the first Ghostbusters movie, but for some reason I remember the station seeming much larger in the movie.
We soon found ourselves back at Brooklyn Bridge, so we got off the train and walked over to the adjacent Chambers Street BMT Station. What a place. We hung around a while and marvelled at the station, and we gathered around a large route map on the northbound platform and I pointed out some of the highlights of the system, while explaining the differences between the IRT, BMT, and IND divisions. While standing there, a couple (M) and (J) trains made stops at the station, and then a large yellow diesel-powered work train came into the station on the track next to us and stopped there for a bit. Being about 5 or 6 cars long, it appeared so be some sort of vacuum train, I assume to vacuum up the track bed. Is this correct? After a few minutes, the vacuum train went on its way.
Our return trip to the Upper East Side was uneventful. We made it back to the car, and I directed my sober friend as he took us over to the West Side via 86th Street through Central Park, down Broadway through Times Square to 42nd Street, and then west on 42nd to the Lincoln Tunnel and onto the NJ Turnpike. We finally made it back to Philly around 7:30 AM, and I spent most of today nursing a royal hangover.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Does the train appear anywhere here?
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/workcars.html
(On a somewhat-related note, I saw the famous Garbage Train pass by the Astor Place station on the Lexington Avenue line when I was in NYC a couple weeks ago.)
One of my friends who was with me had a good suggestion: The holding tanks of the Vac-Track should be transparent like on a Dirt Devil, so that bystanders on station platforms can watch all the garbage and vermin being sucked up into the train.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
I like your idea.
Happy Holidays, by the way.
Precisely my reaction when I first saw it a few years ago.
CG
I thought you were coming to NYC on Wednesday to ride the AirTrain, but I haven't heard from you in weeks. What gives? Please email me the details of your trip ASAP. Thanks.
But wasn't there some rumor that they wanted R142As from the 6 as well in order to divert high-seniority away from the 6? I remember reading a post here that made some mention of that...
How is a superway a highway?
Superway is the exact opposite of subway. The two are collectively intraways. Commuter railways are extraways, Amtrak is an interway, and something in the middle like PATH is a mesoway.
Anyway, it consists of small vehicles running around on rails - hence the "light rail" idea up my noggin. So what if it has gate fare control? Some places have used it on bus lines... ever heard of Curitiba, Brazil?
Well, how many subway trains are only two cars long?
Anyway, Airtrain trains are longer, and you said small VEHICLES, not trains. If 60' long and 10' wide makes it light rail, then much of the subway is light rail.
Can't say that I have!!
Frankly I consider what is now called "light rail" to be a truncated version of the now gone interurban railroads of the first half of the last century.
John
Most Light Rail posits the use of existing or posibly abandoned freight routes to bring suburban commuters to the central city, perhaps with some new street running where necessary, perhaps with some new ROW, and certaily ADA compatible.
Elias
I call it GTT: Glorified Trolley Transit.
Somehow I gather there is a typo there somewhere but I do get the gist. That is why they had to use a euphemism.
Yes it does. How would the cars stay on the rails?
Errrmmmm... the raised part on the inside of the "groove" is called a flange. Without a flange, there would be no "groove".
the flange itself is a safety guard if the wheel climbs up on the rail.
I don't know quite what you are referring to - do you mean the short lengths of fourth or fifth rail you find on sharp curves?
GRT, like PRT, is generally defined as a system where the routing of individual vehicles is determined by the destination preferences of the passengers. An on-demand system, in other words. The only true GRT system in the US at present is the Morgantown GRT. Airtrain is a completely different beast all together.
No. AirTrain (assuming you do mean the JFK version and not the Newark version) is a perfectly conventional rail system as far as the wheel-rail interface is concerned.
or a driver.
Yes. But I don't think that is a deciding factor. There are other systems without drivers that describe themselves as light rail (London's Dockland Light Railway for one) and there are subway systems without drivers that still describe themselves as subways.
In fact there is a category called ALRT (Automated/Advanced Light Rapid/Rail Transit) which AirTrain could fall into.
I think the question is, is it light. And my understanding that this is more to do with the construction and geometry of the track than the vehicles themselves. I have heard it said (on this board) that the Airtrain ROW is built to carry subway trains if necessary, which casts some doubt on how light it is.
It's rapid transit (technically GRT, group rapid transit to distinguish it from PRT, personal rapid transit, also driverless but strangers don't share trains).
I'm not sure on this one, but I always thought GRT involved much smaller vehicles which were dynamically routed by demand. Kind of like an automated transit version of the sort of shared taxis common in some (non-US) cities.
How about boondoggle.
As for trolley, that is a very specific term referring to vehicles that use overhead trolley wire. The TARS vehicles were “streetcars” excepting their Manhattan-Bronx vehicles.
Plus I think we all know what a monorail is.
Some geessees may not. they see a concrete ROW supported by a single row of slender concrete risers, they cannot see what is up there, and clearly it is not their great grandfather'e el.... so what is it.
duh... must be some sorta monorail or something.
Reminds me of some state legislators who wanted to get rid of billboards, well the outdoor advertising lobby suggested allowing only signs that would fit on a single pole.
Oops...
Elias
So first we waited at 96 St for like 20 minutes until a nb (1) train came. We saw two nb (2) trains, three sb (2) trains, and two sb (1) trains before our nb (1) train came. So after boarding, it left 96 St nb, got onto the middle track all the way to the outside part and then right before 137 St it crossed over to the sb track(!) to make the station stop at 137 St. Then it continued north, going back to the middle track for the run through the yard, then it went on a battery run. It got onto the local at 145, but didn't stop. The next stop was 168 St, where we got off.
at 168, we checked out the overpass and then got on the train "right behind ours" and then got off at 181 St. Then we took an elevator ride up to the upper place. The E/O was this guy who looked half dead, half mental, and half lonely. It was freaky.
So after we got out of the elevator at the top place, we walked around in fare control for 35 seconds, and then went back to the elevator. The elevator was still there, and the E/O didn't look too surprised that we cam right back on his elevator. He just sat there, with his head against the elevator wall, his mouth slightly open, and that same stupid look on his face.
So then we went down, down, down, down, not unlike miners going down to a coal mine. When we got to the bottom a sb (1) came so we ran like greased lightening and made the train and went home and lived happily ever after. The End.
WHat a beautiful story.
...for now
Bravo! ;-)
David
: ) Elias
I heard it'll be R-200's (B), R-358's (D), R-666's (N/W), and Boeing-built R-747's for the Q. To avoid mixing of fleets, each car class will become a distinct operating authority.
(1)How is the crewing arrangements worked - is it a double days pay with leave thrown in (for the few workers here in UK - e.g. security drivers for frost precautions in key depots (trains left cut in with heaters on etc) As nothing moves here in UK apart from a few urgent engineeing trains on Xmas day - these rely on well paid volunteer crews to come in.
(2) What are passenger loadings like - I know its variable - but anecdotal evidence from the front line would be very usefull.Very quiet late afternoon I guess - with no business places open.
It is the equivalent of a sunday in most places, with sunday schedules and pay.
Very quiet late afternoon I guess - with no business places open.
Plenty of business places remain open on Christmas. It's one of the things that makes America great, that there is no full closure holiday.
Quite true; I look upon "Christmas," in the holiday sense, as running from the evening of Christmas eve through the afternoon of Christmas day itself. Come to think of it, in that sense Christmas is similar to a Jewish sundown-to-sundown holiday.
I agree. In that sense all "eve" celebrations, where you do special things (traditional Christmas eve dinner, New Year's eve party, etc.) is from the sundown to sundown day.
Unless you were a skilled astronomer in the ancient world, how would you have figured out when midnight = new day was anyway? They didn't have flashlights to read the sundials in the dark then.
I agree with that totally. Christmas Eve is a much funner day than Christmas Day. That's the evening when I see my grandmother, my aunts and uncles, cousins, etc, and all the gift exchanging gets done and we all have dinner. Even though it is supposed to be a religious holiday, which it is, I think of it more as a "family" holiday. I don't think too many people are thinking of the religious part of Chrismas, except maybe for an hour or so if they even go to church. Christmas Eve is the fun day. Christmas Day itself is rather boring....just go to a movie.
To me, Christmas is anything but a holiday. It's the time of year that I'm busiest. This year it looks like I'll get to see my parents and my sister late on the 25th and the rest of my family the day after.
To get back on topic - the London Undergound used to run on Christmas Day at one time. I rode on the Piccadilly Line on Christmas Day 1968. I'm not sure when they stopped opening on Christmas Day, but they got very little custom when they did.
Easy - go to Wales.
and Christmas Eve is no particularly big deal except for those who go to midnight mass.
It's a real nightmare for the choir, who get dragged in for midnight AND Christmas morning.
To get back on topic - the London Undergound used to run on Christmas Day at one time. I rode on the Piccadilly Line on Christmas Day 1968. I'm not sure when they stopped opening on Christmas Day, but they got very little custom when they did.
Ironically, they'd probably get a hell of a lot more custom nowadays.
Funny you should mention a movie theater on Christmas. About 10 years ago when I was in the 111Pct (as a cop, I didn't make sergeant yet) in Bayside we had a job at the movie theater at the Douglaston Mall. (The mall with Sterns on the LIE by the CIP which looks like there's a mountain behind it) When we get there we find 2 girl employees, an usher and a popcorn stand girl, having a catfight and both were injured. They both wanted to press charges. Being Christmas we talked them out of pressing charges saying if we arrest one we have to arrest the other and you certainly don't want to spend Xmas at central booking. They agreed and no arrest was made.
Believe it or not later that day the mother of one of the girls was at the precinct and made a civilian complaint against me for not arresting the other girl. And when the sgt. explained to her that her daughter would have spent Xmas in jail she said it would have been worth it just to have the other girl arrested.
So much for trying to be nice on Christmas!!!
Christmas probably is less of a big deal in NYC than in other places in the United States, what with the city's large Jewish and Asian populations.
And Christmas is celebrated in non-Christian countries, such as Japan.
See the United States Code, Title 4, chapter 1, section 6, paragraph d:
The flag should be displayed on all days, especially on New Year's Day, January 1; Inauguration Day, January 20; Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday, third Monday in January; Lincoln's Birthday, February 12; Washington's Birthday, third Monday in February; Easter Sunday (variable); Mother's Day, second Sunday in May; Armed Forces Day, third Saturday in May; Memorial Day (half-staff until noon), the last Monday in May; Flag Day, June 14; Independence Day, July 4; Labor Day, first Monday in September; Constitution Day, September 17; Columbus Day, second Monday in October; Navy Day, October 27; Veterans Day, November 11; Thanksgiving Day, fourth Thursday in November; Christmas Day, December 25; and such other days as may be proclaimed by the President of the United States; the birthdays of States (date of admission); and on State holidays.
Also Easter Sunday and New Year's Day.
What the bleep is wrong with New Year's Day?
It should be a day off, but it should not be listed in the Flag Act.
For no better reason than for everyone to gorge themselves and get very very drunk.
Or be like a true Scot and party all though Jan 1 too. But then again the Scots actually get Jan 2 off too.
I personally like the New Year's day off thing. It means I can sit around drinking tea, eating stollen and watching the live broadcast of the Vienna New Year Concert.
One day I will take my Austrian-born father back to Vienna, and we will sit in the Opera Haus and listen to the concert in person.
:-D Wow! If he's anything like me he will be pleased!!!
It was, and January 1st is a Holy Day of Obligation (chuch attendance is required) in the Catholic Church, the Solemnity of Mary. The bris is even mentioned in the readings that day.
In addition to Sunday, the days to be observed as holy days of obligation in the Latin Rite dioceses of the United States of America, in conformity with canon 1246, are as follows:
January 1, the solemnity of Mary, Mother of God;
Thursday of the Sixth Week of Easter, the solemnity of the Ascension;
August 15, the solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary;
November 1, the solemnity of All Saints;
December 8, the solemnity of the Immaculate Conception;
December 25, the solemnity of the Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Actually, All Saints Day is also a holy day of obligation, the day after Halloween, as someone else mentioned. I am Catholic, but did forget what January 1st is really for. I know it's not just because of Jesus' Bris, because circumcision isn't even required in the Catholic Church. And even when I went to Catholic school, I always found it interesting that the Immaculate Conception was on Decemeber 8th, but the birth was on Dec 25...further proof that someone played with the dates.
I've always been curious about that, too. Why 17 days before the birth in particular? It must have had some special meaning other than picking it out of a hat.
Because it's when Mary's conception is celebrated.
Christ's conception is called the Annunciation of the BVM, as it's when the angel announced to Mary that she was pregnant. It is (unsurprisingly) on March 25th.
So as not to take up too many posts with OT religious stuff, January 1st is (amongst other things) about the naming of Jesus, so you get all the Holy Name stuff brought into it. I'm surprised the Epiphany's not a holyday of obligation in the US.
IINM, they're even different between England & Wales and Scotland.
I think we better end this though this is getting WAY of topic.
I reckon some kinda rail pilgrimage is in order... there, back on topic.
Then the "8th day" reason IS not a coincidence. See, this is all coming back, I just needed a little refresher course.
In some countries, March 21 on the secular calendar is still the first day of the year.
Not a coincidence at all.
The only biblical evidence is that Jesus was born in the Spring. What evidence has been used to claim a December date?
In a solar calendar system, months are arbitrary. There's no internal reason that January 1 had to be the beginning of a month.
And it's awkward to have the year start in the middle of a month, that's why it was changed.
Nonetheless, surely you agree that a major holiday is celebrated based on that (false) premise.
A calendar system was based on that same false premise. Why do you find that so difficult to accept?
And as I've been trying to point out, most Christians refused to celebrate Christmas in any fashion in recognition of its origins as a pagan Holiday. Some Christian groups still refuse to celebrate it. Jehovah's Witnesses recognize only the time of Easter because of Jesus' instruction to remember Him at the Last Supper, which was a Passover seder:
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
--Luke 22:19
The fact of this being a Passover Seder appears recognized in the fact that celebrations surrounding Easter are timed according to a complex calculation which allows Easter to more closely align with Passover, but without using the Jewish calendar.
As compared to saying Christmas is December 25? Easter is figured in an attempt to recreate a lunar calendar without using the Jewish one for the so called "moveable feasts."
Passover is always on 15 Nisan.
http://www.smart.net/~mmontes/ec-cal.html
www.forgotten-ny.com
So do I, but the calendar predates the birth of Jesus, regardless of what time of year it was. The Gregorian calendar is a minor modification, removing a day every 100 years.
Nonetheless, surely you agree that a major holiday is celebrated based on that (false) premise.
Yes, but what does that have to do with January 1? December 25 was not chosen because it was the eighth day prior to January 1, it was chosen because it was the date of the Feast of Saturnalia.
A calendar system was based on that same false premise. Why do you find that so difficult to accept?
Because the calendar system was not based on that false premise. January 1 may not have been the original start of the year, but it was the start of a month before the birth of Jesus of Nazareth.
Well, it is true, but although this thread is off topic, everyone has been very civil. I see no disrespect, hostility, or intolerance here in this thread. Actually some of my disagreement here in this thread has been with David, and he is one of my favorite subtalkers. I can like David, and still disagree with some of his views at the same time. And in many cases, many of us that are on opposite sides of some subjects but are still friends. All of us can disagree, but can still like each other. It wouldn't be fun if all of us agreed on everything all the time now would it, transit or otherwise. There wouldn't be much to talk about:
"I like the AirTrain, and it is a great service."
"I agree"
"I agree too."
"IAWTP".
Pretty boring after a while.
I don't know where it is mentioned, and don't feel like looking for it, but it is mentioned in the Bible that circumcision is not necessary (of course the Christian version, which includes the Old Testament and the New Testament). This was done very early on in Biblical times, long before the 16th century when the calandar was established. It's not like they just decided one day that circumcision was no longer necessary. It has biblical reference, unlike many modern issues, such as birth control, etc.
Nowadays I think we would call it "spin."
It is always in the week Nov 27 - Dec 3 though.
The point is that although Jan 1st is a holy day in the Catholic Church , it has nothing to do with Jesus' Bris
Yes it does. It is nowadays called either the Circumcision of Jesus or the Naming of Jesus (depending on the church). It is sometimes still referred to by the rather sidetracked name of the Purification of the BVM.
or the beginning of the secular calendar which was adopted only in the 16th century
Agreed, though I bet Pope Gregory was smiling at the coincidence.
I believe the Anteater-to-German Helmet Conversion for Muslim boys occurs when they are small children rather than teenagers. In any event, the Jewish method, of making the Unkindest Cut of All on infants, is in a way more merciful. Imagine getting clipped when you're old enough to know what's going on? Ouch!
Acts of the Apostles 15:1-21
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and [of] the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Interestingly, it looks like keeping kosher was abandoned after circumcision!
So like you guys chose the blue pill or something? And we chose the red pill?
Something like that! It's great when movies are relevant to OT threads!
Personally, I think there should have been a 3-track el with redbirds on the express piloted by BigEdIRTMan in the Matrix. There - back on topic!
It just proves that St. Paul was an Anglican/Episcopalian!!!
Yes it is . In Romans in the Bible it says it's a matter of a persons heart if they will be "saved" or not . I severely thought that if there is a God he will expell a good human being just because he DIDN't had a piece of his body cut off when he was a baby , which wasn't even his idea . Likewise , someone who has had the procedure done , but is a horrible person , will not be "saved" . That is basically more or less what the Bible states .
And finally , I would also assume that if a non-Jew is circumcised at birth , according to Jewish doctrine , he is automatically "saved" ?
I also doubt that . If there is a God , he couldn't have been so narrow minded that he would require amputation of a piece of the body (a valuable piece) to be removed to stay in good with him .
It's a national holiday no different than Martin Luther King day being a national holiday. It's just a bigger one than that, that's all. I think most of Christmas is secular anyway. Even for Christians it's not a "major" holiday. Sure it's a big day, but it's not nearly as important as a religious holiday as Easter is, or Good Friday, the holiest day of the year. The entire Christian faith is based on holy week at Easter. However, Easter is no big deal in a secular version like Christmas is. It's secular Christmas that's a big deal, not religious Christmas. It's not any more important than Chanukah is for Jewish people, which IINM, is also not a major holiday in a religious sense either.
Relative to the original question, on the LIRR you typically have a Holiday schedule. In terms of crewing, the rule on the LIRR is that, no matter what your seniority status, you can have Thanksgiving off, or Christmas off, but not both.
One year the LIRR ran a very restruicted Christmas schedule (more so than the usual holiday) but did not repeat that.
Always arranged if crews worked say Xmas Eve - then tney got New Years off (the wife works Boxing day as a midwife and gets New Years day off).Same principles.
Normal Sunday wages for Xmas Day seems a winner for the management.
So its a normal roster day - presume Sunday service levels ....any figures on patronage ? .
In UK it is a dead day - very dead pm - whole nation (of whatever belief) snores in front of the TV (zonked after a huge dinner) - usually showing at least once "The Great Escape" - and demolishing such delights as Terrys Chocolate Oranges or boxes of After Eight mints.
The streets and cities are deserted - Central London has maybe one or two coffee shops open and a few garages - thats it !
No Frobisher & Gleason Raspberry Flavoured Ice Lollies?
Off topic - but Xmas aint Xmas without a chocolate orange - aways acceptable and even purchasable in petrol stations as a panic buy on the day itself ....(along with overpriced and half dead flowers) ....
Other UK goodies
Salted peanuts and tangerines.
Foxs Glacier Mints
Turkish Delight
Meltis Berry Fruits
(imported) Cranberry sauce.
Roll on the 25th ...
'LONDON Spotted dick, the Victorian suet pudding whose name has provided sniggers for generations of schoolboys, is being renamed after an outbreak of prudishness.
'Housewives are said to have become so embarrassed at the prospect of asking for the dessert that Tesco is to call it Spotted Richard.
'After watching helplessly as sales figures dropped, the supermarket surveyed hundreds of female shoppers to discover the reason. They still loved the taste of spotted dick, they said, but found the name too saucy.
'In an age where incestuous kisses on TV's EastEnders barely elicit a flushed neck, it is perhaps refreshing that a double entendre can still produce excruciating titters. "Our research showed that people are actually embarrassed by the name," a Tesco spokesman said. "Can you imagine a lady going up to a male assistant and asking where she can find a spotted dick?"
'What about a nice big tart? "Tarts? No, we dont seem to have a problem with tarts," the spokesman added. "We noticed that all our traditional puddings were selling very well apple pies, crumbles but for some reason sales of spotted dick were dropping off. So we carried out some taste tests and they all said they loved it, it was just the name. We hope we will ease customer embarrassment and increase sales."
'Officials at the Pudding Club, which promotes traditional British desserts, were left choking on their custard creams. "We are absolutely outraged by this," said Simon Coombe, the club's chief taster. "Spotted dick has always been spotted dick and there is no reason to change that. I have no intention whatsoever of following this ridiculous example and will continue to use the name spotted dick."
'There is no clear answer as to how the pudding got its name. One school of thought is that the finished pudding looks like a spotty dog, and in the 19th century dogs were often called Dick. In Lobscouse and Spotted Dog, the cookery book based on the Jack Aubrey naval stories, it is suggested that "dick," "duff" and "dog" in names of puddings are variants of "dough." '
Are you sure that this article didnt appear one April 1st?
For those not in on the joke, Spotted Dick is a suet pudding with raisins.
Your explanation however does help people like me who google things before asking.
So I'm posting this only because I typed in the first sentence before deciding to look it up for myself, and there's no sense letting a good post go to waste. That and having read the definition I have to say: BRITISH PEOPLE HAVE NO BUSINESS MAKING FOOD!
Most definitely. If you don't believe the Times, it's also here in the Scotsman. Tesco weren't alone. Gloucestershire Hospitals NHS Trust also called it Spotted Richard for a time.
Gloucs Hosps changed it back after patients told them that they were being very silly. I don't know about Tesco, but it did feature in an episode of Have I Got News For You.
I dunno, but it seems that Britain is going the same way as America with the barmy Political Correctness.
I can't tell you how disturbed and disheartened I am by this revelation.
I wish you folks in the British Isles would appreciate how important it is that you maintain standards, as you are looked up to by we gun-toting, shoot-first-and-ask-quesions-maybe cowboys on this side of The Pond.
We expect people in Britain to wrap fish and chips in the popular press.
We expect you to say "heah-heah" early and often in Commons.
We expect you to always have Ham Buttys available in the "Buffy" Car.
We expect that the Minister of Silly Walks will always report to the Home Secretary.
And let me tell you, we in the colonies know our Dicks. We have Dick Nixon and Dick Cheney, just for a starter. And we can not abide the prospect of Spotted Dick being something else.
I hope you realize how important this is that you uphold Western Civilization. If you don't we shall have to face the prospect of looking up, not to the British Lion, but to the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkies on the Continent.
As the line in the flim, "Trainspotting" goes with respect to Scots, but equally true here - "The English are a nation of wankers. So what does that make *US*, eh? We were COLONISED by wankers!" :)
Pity there was no Central, District, or National Rail service to get anywhere near them...
Martin Luther King Day is a commemoration of the life of an important figure in American history. What important figure or event in American history does Christmas commemorate?
I realize a lot of people find this hard to believe, but to all but the most assimilated of Jews (and I assume the same goes for other non-Christian religions), Christmas is nothing. There are no family gatherings, there are no trees, there are no gifts. (For better or for worse, many Jews have adopted the custom of giving gifts, but they've transplanted that custom to Chanukah.) Christmas is just an annoyance, when many useful businesses are closed and when the subway doesn't run as frequently as usual.
Perhaps it's not a major holiday for Christians, but it's not even a minor holiday for non-Christians.
Fine. Many people have off for Yom Kippur. Many people have off for Rosh Hashanah Who cares if people get an extra day off.
I don't think any Jewish (as well as Christian) person in many businesses find Christmas annoying. Christmas has a major impact on the American economy no matter what religion or non-religion someone is. Many businesses define how well they did or didn't do by how "the holiday" season goes. I'm sure they don't think Christmas is "nothing". Christmas is big business, like it or not. I'm sure most Jewish or non religious businesses are only too happy to hang "Santa Claus" up in their window. I fail to see what's the big deal. Most of the Christmas you see has absolutely nothing to do with "religious" Christmas. What do flying reindeer have to do with religion? What does a Christmas tree mean to religion? Nothing. What does gift giving have to do with religion? While yes, it's based on a religious beginning, the Christmas we know today was started by American businesses. It's not even as big as it is here in Europe.
As for the subway not running as usual. Again, who cares. Should they run a normal weekday schedule when more than half the normal riders are not going to use it, as well as many of the workers not wanting to come in to work? Would you be willing to work on Rosh Hashanah? I understand your point, but what's the big deal? Fine Christmas means nothing to many people, but it does to many people. Passover means something to you, but many people couldn't care less. That's life, everyone has different customs.
The typical observant Jew (especially outside the NYC area) has to explain to his employer (or professors) seven times each year (except when they conveniently fall on weekends) that he must miss work (or school) for two days, since his religion prohibits his working for 49 hours. By the fourth such holiday in a month, many employers grow suspicious. Believe me, it's an awkward request to have to make, and it often results in the loss of vacation days. It's an experience that few Christians have ever had.
And then somebody else's holiday rolls along, and he's told that he can't come in to work, not even to recover a vacation day.
See the problem?
I don't have a problem with a business closing on Christmas because most of its employees would be taking off then anyway, or because it anticipates seeing few customers. I don't have a problem with a transit agency reducing service on Christmas because ridership tends to be low on Christmas. I do, OTOH, have a major problem with special governmental treatment of Christmas simply because it's Christmas.
None of the other legal holidays sanctioned by Congress have religious origins, they all commemorate historical events, or great Americans.
Sorry, but Jesus of Nazareth may be important to many people, but he is not a great American.
Christmas and Hanukkah are in some ways comparable, in that they could be characterized as cultural holidays associated with particular religions. Christmas is not the birthday of Jesus, as recognized at least by many Christian groups and discussed at length by, inter alia, Jehovah's Witnesses.
Likewise, Hanukkah is not a religious day of obligation for Jews as, for example, Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur.
The "Christmas" tree is an appropriated Teutonic symbol (Tanenbaum) and is clearly looked down upon by the Judeo-Christian bible:
"Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, o house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord, learn not the ways of the heathen and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. They deck it with silver and with gold: they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are "upright" as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
--Jeremiah 10:1-5
All that being said, enjoy our festivals. If Christmas brings you closer to Jesus in your heart or impels you toward reaching out to your fellow man, this is surely good, whether or not it is truly a religious holiday.
Dunno ... Easter's sort of becoming a festival of Spring, not necessarily religious.
Personally, I prefer goose.
then sit in front of the telly and watch reruns of Morecombe & Wise, and Only Fools and Horses. (Not forgetting Besss little homily)
Yawn!!! Nope, I'll be waatching DVDs and posting on Subtalk...
In a city none of whose residents celebrate Christmas, the DMV and post office will still be closed a week from today. That's my objection.
(Oh, I suppose I have another objection: sidewalks overcrowded because of tree-induced narrowing. That's public property; does the city ticket permitless Christmas tree vendors much as the city tickets other permitless vendors the rest of the year? I hope so. And I hope the city doesn't actually grant permits specifically for the time of the year that snow often produces difficult walking conditions.)
I think you must have phrased that wrong, or I am reading it wrong.
For an example closer to home, will the library and post office in the Village of Kiryas Joel be open this coming Thursday?
There's no reason that the Kiryas Joel post office has to be open the same days as your local post office. It might as well be closed on the eleven major Jewish holidays, and there's no reason for it not to be open this Thursday.
So there's no reason that any given post office must be closed on Christmas (or any other day of the year).
I saw a show on those Christmas tree guys on the Metro channel once. They are mostly from Canada, and many basically "live" where they sell the trees for the season. The city does give out permits for them (and does ticket non-permit holders if they come across them). As for the city granting permits at the time of year when it may snow, yes they do; I don't think many people would be buying cut down pine trees in July.
Don't forget the Festivus FEATS OF STRENGTH!
FESTIVUS ISN'T OVER UNTIL YOU PIN ME!
It's already been tried, to widespread derision. Do a Google search for "winterval".
Errrmmmm... no it wasn't JUST Christmas, to be fair to the poor deluded Birmingham City Council.
"Birmingham City Council used the phrase to describe its programme of festive family events over Christmas and the New Year."
BBC, Nov 9th 1998.
This programme of festive faily events was stretched out over 42 days, so you could say that BCC had a point. They went so far as admitting that "Christmas was at the heart of Winterval".
I'm all in favour of it!!!
"Come butler, come fill us a bowl of the best
Then we hope that your soul in heaven may rest
But if you do draw us a bowl of the small
Then down shall go butler, bowl and all!"
But for many Jews, Christmas raises the "December problem," the pull of deciding how to tell children that they can't celebrate what is the most important cultural holiday in the U.S. and otehr countries as well. Think how badly many children take it when they learn (all objective evidence notwithstanding) that Santa isn't a real person. Now imagine telling your kids they don't get Santa at all, or a tree, or the festive things they see all around them.
I disagree with you on one point, as far as I have been able to tell, Christmas was never more of a religious than a family and gift-giving holiday. Until the 19th century, many Christian groups forbade the celebration of Christmas, for the essentially secular holiday it is. Perhaps some Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox tradition may be different, but I'm not familiar with those.
Because his religion requires that no such activity be done on the Sabbath. The other religion allows activity on their Sabbath.
I still think Christmas is a secular holiday at this point for the most part.
It's not a secular holiday, it's a pagan religious holiday, many of the customs come from pagan celebrations. A religious holiday does not become secular any more than a secular holiday becomes religious.
It's not a secular holiday, it's a pagan religious holiday, many of the customs come from pagan celebrations. A religious holiday does not become secular any more than a secular holiday becomes religious.
I disagree pretty much all around. Christmas is an appropriation of the mid-winter pre-Christian celebrations, but that doesn't make it a pagan religious holiday in itself. Christmas for most Christians has a religious dimension simply because people believe it has. Religion is based on faith, not materialism (in the philosophic sense), so if people believe a holiday is religious for them, it is.
My point is that I don't believe there was actually a time that Christmas was more a religious holiday than a cultural one for the general population.
The Christmas tree is not an appropriate Christian symbol, according to the bible, but I don't know of any Christians who actually worship the tree, as an animist would.
Religious holidays do become secular by usage. Halloween was an important holiday for some pagan groups, but in my memory was completely secular in the United States. Now some latter-day "Wiccans" want to invest it with religious meaning again.
That doesn't make it any less of an annoyance that, e.g., government offices are, as a rule (rather than as a practical necessity in some or even most cases), closed on a religious holiday. I would never expect any government office in the U.S. to be closed on, e.g., Yom Kippur, unless it was forced to close due to lack of available staffing.
Next week, millions of observant Jews in the workforce will be forced to take off the day on Thursday for somebody else's holiday, but will have to rush out early the next day to prepare for one of the earliest Shabbosim of the year. This is the case even if most employees would prefer to work Thursday and have a long weekend.
When I was a kid there was a bakery on Church Avenue in Brooklyn ("Tell's") and I guess the owners were Jewish though it wasn't a Kosher bakery. Anyway, one year I was hanging out near the bakery when an annoyed man rattled the locked door. He asked me "Why is the bakery closed?" I said, "it's Yom Kippur, a Jewish holiday." He said "Because the JEWS have to have a holiday, I can't buy a loaf of bread," and stamped off.
That image always stuck with me. Moral: People's celebrations (or solemn observances) are always convenient, but at least tolerating them and maybe even wishing them well is why we live in America.
Of course a Christian-owned or -staffed business will be closed when Christians are unable to work. And of course I wish those Christians well on their holidays.
But what does that have to do with government agencies where staffing is not an issue, or with private companies whose would employees prefer to have a long weekend than a Thursday off?
It's the official status of Christmas in the U.S. that I find objectionable, not Christmas itself. If Yom Kippur had the same official status, I'd be equally offended. I was embarrassed when the question of alternate side on Purim came up a few years ago; there's no Jewish law against driving on Purim (as long as one isn't intoxicated), so why should alternate side be suspended?
But what does that have to do with government agencies where staffing is not an issue, or with private companies whose would employees prefer to have a long weekend than a Thursday off?
If they close government agencies in one place, they have to do it all over. And outside of New York it is even harder to find areas that are majority Jewish or non-Christian. Of course there are exceptions, but again, if they do it in one area, they have to do it across the board.
As for your long weekend, I can almost gaurantee, that many people DO have a long weekend this weekend, with many businesses (non-retail) closing Friday too. I know I have off Thursday and Friday, and many people I know do. You'll just have to wait until next year to get "the long weekend" when Christmas falls on Friday....uh oh, it's leap year next year, you;ll have to wait until Christmas falls on Monday : )
Ash Wednesday is a stupid parking holiday. They should make Fat Tuesday a parking holiday to make up for it.
I agree. I'm not going to stand in the way of anybody else's alternate side holiday, as silly as it may seem to me, but I don't want to ask for accomodations I don't need. If alternate side isn't suspended on Shavuos, observant Jews around the city get parking tickets and nasty notes on their windows. If alternate side isn't suspended on Purim, observant Jews around the city move their cars. We (Jews) should save our requests for when we actually need them.
If they close government agencies in one place, they have to do it all over.
Why is that? Many government functions are run at the local level.
As for your long weekend, I can almost gaurantee, that many people DO have a long weekend this weekend, with many businesses (non-retail) closing Friday too. I know I have off Thursday and Friday, and many people I know do.
But many businesses only grant one (week)day off this week. I guarantee that in over 99% of those cases, that day is Thursday, not Friday, and that the employees were never actually asked which day they'd prefer to have off. After all, with the exception of movie theaters and restaurants, keeping your business open on Christmas is downright unpatriotic!
Best of the holdidays to you and yours as well, CC! :)
Maybe I'm still living in the Cold War mentality, but don't weathermen have to work on Christmas, to make sure that's Santa coming over the North Pole, and not an ICBM?
Then again, I volunteer to work Christmas, so that those who observe the holiday can have it off with their families.
Good for you. Maintaining the same tradition I saw in the Army.
You want me to fill in for you?
My wife's company, on the other hand, has given them a half-day on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday off, and the entire week following - all paid.
I think any observant (or even not-so-observant) Jew would kill for something like that around Passover!
And it would still be wrong.
Government offices are closed on Columbus Day even if you're not Italian or Spanish.
Government offices are closed on Martin Luther King day even if you're not African-American.
Government offices are closed on Labor Day even if you're a small businessman.
Government offices are closed on Veterans Day even if you're a draft dodger.
When I was in the Army (during Vietnam), Jewish personnel used to volunteer the work the holidays so more Christians could go home to see their families. The expression of love was not unnoted.
Christmas is more important culturally to the great majority of Americans than most other holidays. Deal with it.
No, I'm not.
A lousy loaf of bread was cause enough to direct hatred toward Jews because he was inconvenienced. I'm sure if he were pinned down on the issue he would say "I love Jews. Some of my best friends are Jews. But I'm Not Jewish, so why should I be inconvenienced."
Are you suggesting that Jews should give up their holidays and accept the religious holidays of their neighbors in their stead? To be sure, that's the attitude that some Jews have taken. Their grandchildren do not share that attitude -- their grandchildren have either fallen entirely out of Judaism or have reaccepted the celebrations that their grandparents rejected.
It's not an attitude that I'm willing to take. It wouldn't be fair to my grandchildren.
Jews are currently in the middle of a holiday that celebrates the triumph of traditionalists over assimilationists. This is perhaps not the best time for your assimilationist message.
My bakery is closed on Yom Kippur and on the other ten days of the year when my religion prohibits work, plus every Sabbath. If I can find the staffing and I expect customers, my bakery is open on December 25, just as it's open on December 24 and December 26. This is nonnegotiable. The gentleman in your story is welcome to find his bread elsewhere.
Government offices are closed on Columbus Day even if you're not Italian or Spanish.
Columbus Day commemorates an important figure in the history of the United States.
Government offices are closed on Martin Luther King day even if you're not African-American.
Martin Luther King Day commemorates an important figure in the history of the United States.
Government offices are closed on Labor Day even if you're a small businessman.
Labor Day honors a group of Americans.
Government offices are closed on Veterans Day even if you're a draft dodger.
Veterans Day honors another group of Americans.
When I was in the Army (during Vietnam), Jewish personnel used to volunteer the work the holidays so more Christians could go home to see their families. The expression of love was not unnoted.
Are you sure it was an expression of love? To those who don't celebrate Christmas, working on Christmas isn't an imposition. If, by working on Christmas, those Jewish personnel enabled Christians to celebrate their holiday, that's great, but Jews have no reason to refrain from working on Christmas to begin with.
Christmas is more important culturally to the great majority of Americans than most other holidays.
Good for them, and I hope they enjoy it.
Yom Kippur is more important culturally to me than most other holidays, yet all I ask is for the basic accomodations I need to observe it. Formal recognition is unnecessary and IMO undesireable.
Deal with it.
I'm dealing with it quite fine, although you seem to have trouble accepting the holidays of others. My only objection is the elevation to the formal status of 'national holiday' that one particular religious holiday has received in the United States. In case it's not clear from my comments, my objections would be no weaker if the holiday were one of my own.
Columbus Day commemorates an important figure in the history of the United States.
The first European to find the Bahamas is an important figure in US history? I don't buy into this one, and I'm Italian.
There are only two U.S. holidays honoring individuals, Martin Luther King and Columbus. Not to hurt anyone's sensibilities of the decency or importance of these individuals, there is no holiday for Lincoln, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, either Roosevelt, and on and on...; and I don't advocate that such holidays be established. We should not secularly deify individuals above others.
Martin Luther King day could become Freedom Day, honoring both man and concept, while Columbus Day could become Discoverers Day.
Are you suggesting that Jews should give up their holidays and accept the religious holidays of their neighbors in their stead? To be sure, that's the attitude that some Jews have taken. Their grandchildren do not share that attitude -- their grandchildren have either fallen entirely out of Judaism or have reaccepted the celebrations that their grandparents rejected.
This is the heart of why I say you're not getting it.
I'm suggesting quite the opposite. What stuck with me from that incident was that the man expressed anger at Jews because he couldn't buy a loaf of bread because of Jews' observance of a tradition not his own. How you could assume I was saying the bakery should have been open is beyond me.
Now you are being intolerent of an important tradition that happens to be observed by the great majority of Americans.
When I was in the Army (during Vietnam), Jewish personnel used to volunteer the work the holidays so more Christians could go home to see their families. The expression of love was not unnoted.
Are you sure it was an expression of love?
Yes.
I'm intolerant of the officialization of the tradition at the national level. I do not participate in the tradition myself, but (as I've said again and again) I hope that those who do have an enjoyable and meaningful holiday.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes it is. Everyone likes a day off. The Jewish servicemen were not required to sacrifice their day off, they did because they were altrustic and felt that the day off would be more valuable to someone else.
Not so. Those who work on Christmas are either getting paid, either in cash or in other days off. A day off is always welcome, but a Jew might prefer his on, say, Yom Kippur. That's common sense, not love.
From the context, it was implied that the Jews were entitled to taking Christmas off. No mention was made of whether that option would be available at any other time.
You have to understand the nature of Army leave for Holidays. Jewish personnel were more-or-less entitled to take Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur as leave days or at least as on-post non-work days, because the military understood the nature of a religious holiday of obligation. The Army couldn't require it, but it was expected that Jews would be attending chapel on those days. As with everything else military, it was subject to exigent circumstances. After all, the Israeli military didn't wait for sundown to fight the Yom Kippur war.
Now let's talk about Christmas. The Army tried to let as many people off for Christmas as possible, because it is so important to Christmas celebrants. In non-combat situations, the Army runs on light staffing for the last two weeks of December. But not nearly all Christians can get off for Christmas, or there wouldn't be any Army, in effect. Also, if you are on the duty roster over Christmas (KP, CQ, etc.) someone has to cover for you. So Jews made it a point to volunteer to work and to take those duties so more Christians could go home.
The point I'm trying to make is that it wasn't quid pro quo. Noone said, "I'll take your KP on December 23 if you take my KP on Saturday." Jews of good will covered for Christians and Christians of good will covered for Jews.
And why on earth would anyone take off for the first day of Chanukah? There are eleven days each year (plus Sabbaths) when observant Jews have to worry about getting time off from work, and Chanukah is not among them.
Does the NYC Department of Education count as a 'government office'?, he asks, knowing that somebody will take it the wrong way. After all, they are closed for Yom Kippur (at least, whenever it falls on a weekday).
I'd be surprised to learn of a single public school in the U.S. that holds class on Christmas, even in an area with few Christians.
When I was in NYC public schools in the '50s and '60s, the Jewish population of both students and teachers was higher than now, but the schools were never closed on Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur.
Or perhaps more Jews in the 50's were willing to attend school on Yom Kippur today. In the 50's, Orthodox Judaism had been declared dead; today, it's thriving.
Perhaps that's also the reason they closed the schools, workplaces, offices, etc on Christmas, as the majority of people would not show up.
Have you ever seen a sign like this? "The store is closed today because many of our employees are celebrating a religious holiday. We apologize for the inconvenience and hope to see you tomorrow." Of course not. It's a given that the store is closed on Christmas. Doesn't matter if the employees would be glad to work and the shoppers would be glad to shop -- it's Christmas.
It's also an unnecessary sign because I think it's safe to say that 99.9% of the people who use that store know that Dec 25th is Christmas, no matter what religion they practice, if any. The same can't be said of let's say Yom Kippur, where sign like that may be necessary, because most of the country (especially outside NY) is not even aware of when Yom Kippur even is, aside from the people who celebrate it, or may have off because of it.
To give an example of a religious (Christian), non-secular holiday like Easter, a sign like that may be necessary, as unlike Christmas, Easter is not generally celebrated in a secular way, so people may not know why it would be closed.
The Christmas that is practiced in America is not the same Christmas that is celebrated around the world. Again, yes it is based on religion, but has evolved into a secular holiday. I think it's also safe to say that although there are many people celebrating it religiously, the majority of Americans celebrating Christmas are not celebrating it in a religious way.
In the past, bureaucracies were not so sensitive to the issues of minorities.
Or perhaps more Jews in the 50's were willing to attend school on Yom Kippur today.
Jews did not attend school on the High Holy Days in the '50s. The schools remained open for other students.
In the 50's, Orthodox Judaism had been declared dead; today, it's thriving.
Nonsense. Typical Jews in New York (and even more so in other parts of the nation) were more observant than the average today--what there wasn't was such a large community of ultra-Orthodox, except for Hassidim. True, you rarely saw a yarmulke on a Jew. But it was also common for Jews to observe Kashruth and not ride on Shabbos without having having to conciously set themselves from the broader communities.
What is thriving today that was little present in the '60s is an Orthodoxy that adopts a more old-European style of observance. I imagine this is partly because of the destruction of Jewish communities in much of the world, especially Europe, and the greatly increased ethnic consciousness in the U.S.
Source? This goes against everything I've heard and read on the topic.
You can't learn everything from books. You didn't have a large community of extremely observant Jews, but what you might call secular Jews, even Reform, were more apt to maintain certain issues of observance, including Kashruth, attending shul, and marrying in the faith.
The fact that they were less likely (at the least those who where native born and under 40) to wear a covering on their heads didn't mean they didn't keep the religion in their hearts.
Certainly, I agree that, in the 50's, those Jews who didn't strictly observe the holidays were more likely to celebrate them in a quasi-traditional fashion than now.
But at the same time, there were far fewer who did strictly observe the holidays. There are many more American Jews today than in the 50's who will not, except for matters of life and death, write a single word on either day of Rosh Hashanah, on Yom Kippur, on the first two days of Sukkot, on Shmini Atzeret and Simchat Torah, on the first two and last two days of Pesach, and on the two days of Shavuot.
The quasi-traditionalists would take the day off on Rosh Hashanah if they could, of course. But if they had an important exam in the afternoon, they'd likely take it. That isn't even an option for the strictly observant.
I've seen conflicts over questions of exam scheduling of this sort. They're often not pretty, even nowadays, with laws in many states requiring schools to offer makeup arrangements. It's no wonder that some schools and school systems with large numbers of observant Jews have chosen to sidestep the issue by cancelling school on those days that generate the most absences.
I think that depends on what you think of a "traditional." I don't think it's fair to say that Jews in New York in the '50s were not traditional, with the implication that there was a defect in their observance.
I think the seminal events in the huge increase of an older (and more traditionally European than American) and stricter observance by American Jews today were not Jewish events at all. One was the "60s," during which there was heightened interest in observances, religion, and traditions not in the mainstream of the times. The second was Alex Haley's Roots, which had the secondary effect of raising the consciousness of ethnic, national and religious groups, and displacing the "melting pot" as a key cultural assumption.
It seems to me (and you are closer to this than I) that Jews today are more made to choose either a distinctly assimiliationist or very strict model, rather than the more comfortable middle ground of mid-Century. Do you think this is true? If so, do you think it's a good thing?
I agree. I didn't say that they weren't traditional, and I certainly didn't intend any implication of judgment.
I somewhat reluctantly used the term 'quasi-traditional' to refer to those who maintain some sort of genuine but incomplete traditional observance of the holidays. (If you have a better term, send it my way.) In many cases, these people grew up fully traditional but were pressured to relax the tradition in 50's America. (I wouldn't dare declare these people defective in any way. For one thing, I haven't been in their shoes.)
I think the seminal events in the huge increase of an older (and more traditionally European than American) and stricter observance by American Jews today were not Jewish events at all. One was the "60s," during which there was heightened interest in observances, religion, and traditions not in the mainstream of the times. The second was Alex Haley's Roots, which had the secondary effect of raising the consciousness of ethnic, national and religious groups, and displacing the "melting pot" as a key cultural assumption.
Good observations, and I agree.
It seems to me (and you are closer to this than I) that Jews today are more made to choose either a distinctly assimiliationist or very strict model, rather than the more comfortable middle ground of mid-Century. Do you think this is true? If so, do you think it's a good thing?
I certainly do think it is true (as we speak, the Conservative movement is shifting in both directions, with most of its members sliding towards Reform and a handful sliding towards Orthodoxy). I can't say if it's a good thing -- in ways I think it's good and in ways I think it's very bad.
In which ways, if I might ask? I don't mean to force you to a long or detailed reply, but I'd be interested in what you have to say.
This is going to take more than a few minutes. Email me and I'll try to get around to it at some point soon.
Thank you for the interesting discussion, even if it took a while to reach that stage.
Huh? I never read Roots, and my family became more religious a few years ago.
I use the term "tribal" to delineate an open allegience to a group based mostly on ethnicity where it was previously considered more a private matter.
Lack of available staffing seems like the reason for the majority of the country for Christmas closings. Again, if they close government offices in one place, it must be across the board on Christmas, even if an all Muslim or Jewish city existed in the US.
The separation of Church and State in the US is a funny thing. Coming from a country with an established church, I have studied the contradictions with interest.
I think some history is necessary to put some context here. The Founding Fathers wanted separation of church and state, so that people would be free to practise their religion without fear of repression. However, from reading the contemporary documents, its clear that a) the Founding Fathers believed in God and b) that God was a Christian God. The idea was that the state wouldnt interfere in which brand of Christianity. Dont forget that, in their recent past, people had died, usually in horrible ways, for professing the wrong brand of Christianity.
I believe that other religions in the USA are 20th century phenomena, are as the agnostics and atheists. So by the time they arrived, national holidays for important Christian festivals were institutionalized. Parts of the country where significant proportions of other religions settled, especially New York City, have worked out their own accommodations.
Some ironies:
Good Friday is a New York Stock Exchange holiday, not because of any religious connotations, but because of the crash on that day.
Chief Justice Roy Moore of Alabama was required to remove a tablet with the Ten Commandments on it from the state judicial building, while the Commandments are on the wall of the federal Supreme Court.
A senior Christian Cleric and the Chief Rabbi participate in the Presidential transition ceremony, when the incoming President (so far) swears the Oath of Office on a bible, while schools in the South are prohibited from having a prayer before football matches.
Finally, I was born the day after Christmas, (Boxing Day if you come from the UK, St Stephens day) and resent all those years when I was screwed for presentsthis ones for your Christmas and your birthday. Drat!
?? Really? Good Friday is a different week every year. It could be in either March or April. Holy week is based on the lunar cycle. Wouldn't the stock exchange crash be associated with a date rather than a religious holiday?
On the other hand, there are some intelligent, witty, well-read, erudite brokers, but they are few and far between.
And then the market still doesn't go up.
On the other hand, its the busiest day of the year for retail banks and credit card companies in terms of the authorizations that they process: everyones out shopping!
Actually, the busiest shopping day of the year is not the day after Thanksgiving as often thought, but yesterday - the last Saturday before Christmas.
However, I could well believe yesterday was the busiest day, judging by the cash registers ringing in the stores I visited!
To the best of my knowledge, it is not a trading rule, but a US banking law - banks chartered in the US may not be closed for more than three consecutive days. This has its roots in the 1929 crash.
While stock market investors, as I've noted here before, are ignorant schmucks. I'll never forget the incident in early 2002 when there was an explosion and fire in an old building on (IIRC) West 19th Street caused by improperly stored chemicals. Talk about word spreading fast, within a few minutes of the late-morning explosion the Dow and other indices tanked over 10%, because investors feared the towel heads were on the warpath. Talk about ignorance, cowardice, and just plain disgraceful behavoir ...
Such as this one.
but I know a good anthem when I hear it!
I rather like the Oxbridgensian theory that a good anthem is a short one - that way, you get dinner earlier!
And of which Cathedral is he Dean?
Well I couldn't think of a better established Church than the Anglican/Episcopalian one - actually I could: get rid of "contemporary language"; and please would someone stop altering the Lord's prayer - everyone knows it should be "which art", "in earth" and "them that trespass".
I guess it comes back to an individual expectation of a service: the poetry of King James (at some work to understand the language) versus absolutely bland modern English.
What happened was that that text was so universally disliked that they decided to enforce slow creeping change instead, giving a text that was nearly what everyone was used to.
Thank gox everyone uses BCP for evensong - the modern one is truly awful - you should see the hash it makes of the Magnificat!
IOW, we don't want to have a Becket situation, where an establishment church (or any church) competes with the secular government,or where the government can rule that one or another religion has state blessing.
The ironies you cite spring from a different source. The U.S. is a not a Christian country, not even if everyone in it were Christian--rather it is a secular nation founded for the most part by Christians and whose legal and cultural conditions are overwhelmingly from nations and traditions that are Judeo-Christian in origin.
The oaths on the Bible, the blessings in Congress, the Commandments at the Supreme Court are not obeisance to God, as they might be in a country with a State Relgion. This is not to say that Americans are not religious, but that the U.S.is a republic, where power is derived from the populace, not from a King, who traditionally claims power from God.
Since Congress has a chaplain, and there are prayers before sessions, how does separation work in this case?
Not that it concerns me, since I am still a British citizen in the US on a green card, but I still think these are inconsisencies. Such in the case of official recognition of homosexual relationships, which has the religious right with their knickers in a twist about violating the sanctity of marriage. I would say that separation of church and state would mean that all unions, of whatever sort, were just civil unions, a sort of contract that took care of property/inheritance/medical decision rights, and everything else was a matter for the individuals concerned and their church(es) if applicable. cf: France, where there are separate civil and church marriage ceremonies.
Obeisance is a sort of surrender, an admission (in the case of church-state issues) that what you are doing is in the name of a Deity.
The mystery of religious symbolism in American public life stems (in the popular mind) from the fact that we are more than two centuries from the nation's founding. At the time of independence (1776 for us, 1783 for you) the U.S. was the world's only significant republic, and we've forgotten this. Virtually all other nations claimed to derive their power from their Sovereigns, who in turn claimed to derive their power from God.
To make a long story short, by using terms like "Under God," "In God We Trust," the important implication is "Not Under the King," "We Trust Not in Rulers."
There has been a lot of slippage in this understanding. The U.S. never put the image of identifiable real people (except as models) on coinage. It was usually an allegorical representation of Liberty. Sadly, this changed in 1909 when it was argued, among other things, that since Lincoln was "the very embodiment of Liberty" it was OK to put his image on the cent. And it's been all downhill from there.
Since Congress has a chaplain, and there are prayers before sessions, how does separation work in this case?
This is the common (including among Americans) misunderstanding of the role of separation. The Chaplain and the prayers (not adhering to a single denomination) are an expression of "give us wisdom." It is a quantum leap from the intent in state church governments, where the implication is that the church is what gives the secular government legitimacy.
Not that it concerns me, since I am still a British citizen in the US on a green card, but I still think these are inconsisencies. Such in the case of official recognition of homosexual relationships, which has the religious right with their knickers in a twist about violating the sanctity of marriage.
Church people are as entitled as anyone else to express their opinion on the law. But the state still has the power to decide who can marry.
I would say that separation of church and state would mean that all unions, of whatever sort, were just civil unions, a sort of contract that took care of property/inheritance/medical decision rights, and everything else was a matter for the individuals concerned and their church(es) if applicable. cf: France, where there are separate civil and church marriage ceremonies.
But all [marriage] unions in the U.S. are civil unions. You get your license to marry from your state government. Who actually says words in front of you is irrelevant, so long as your state recognizes them. Priests, ministers, rabbis, etc., are empowered by the state to perform marriages. Your marriage is just as valid if you go to City Hall.
The prospect of same-sex marriage is a good example of the separation of church and state. If same-sex marriage becomes legal in the civil realm, it will be legal, period, whether or not any minister will perform the marriage. But neither will the government be able to force any religion or minister to perform such a marriage (or any other, for that matter).
Interesting trivia: under Hillary Clinton's health care proposal, it would have been a criminal offense for a physician who specialized in women's health to refuse to perform an abortion if asked, regardless of his or her moral or religious beliefs on the subject.
Thank God Hillary's plan got aborted.
Don't worry. You're not out of touch. Just because Peter Rosa says it doesn't make it true.
Nope.
"May the Children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other Inhabitants; while every one shall sit under his own vine and fig tree, and there shall be none to make him afraid."
--George Washington
...are as [sic] the agnostics and atheists.
Possibly, but the founding fathers were not "religious," they were deists, believing that there is a god that must create the world and set it into motion, but does not require daily prayer. In modern times more people who would have been deists are atheists (there are still plenty of deists) because it's easier to explain the world without the need of a deity.
"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."
--Benjamin Franklin
Chief Justice Roy Moore of Alabama was required to remove a tablet with the Ten Commandments on it from the state judicial building, while the Commandments are on the wall of the federal Supreme Court.
There's a difference. The Supreme Court inscription is part of an exhibit on the history of Western and American law, of which the Ten Commandments are an undeniably important part. Moore's monument however was clearly intended as nothing more than a religious symbol. One other difference: Moore's monument had the text of the Ten Commandments, the Supreme Court inscriptions are blank.
A senior Christian Cleric and the Chief Rabbi participate in the Presidential transition ceremony, when the incoming President (so far) swears the Oath of Office on a bible, while schools in the South are prohibited from having a prayer before football matches.
The use of religious symbols for being sworn in as president is a choice of the person being sworn in. In addition, the "so help me God" at the end of the oath recited by most Presidents is optional. It is not in the Constitution.
In the case of football matches it may be optional, but it's a group, and the majority of the group could end up ostracizing a minority if it is there. One individual making his own choice doesn't hurt anyone.
Dang, I thought that was the start of a joke, like this one:
A Catholic priest and a rabbi are walking down the street together when they see a 10-year-old boy up ahead. "Let's screw him," says the priest.
"Out of what?" asks the rabbi.
On the other hand I'll take days off any way I can get them expecially "free days" like Christmas (by "free day" I mean a day where I don't lose a vacation or sick day and where a backlog of work does not pile up because the company was open that day).
I'd really like to see at least 5 more National Holidays during the year where everything shuts down - heck I'd even celebrate Groundhog Day for that matter ;-)
Christmas Day (along with New Year's Day, Memorial Day, July 4, Labor Day and Thansgiving) is picked separately from the rest of the week. If Christmas (or any of the others) falls on your regular day off, then you are off for the day. If you have enough seniority, you can pick the holiday off, even if you would normally be working on that day of the week. Everyone else works that day on a Sunday schedule.
Everyone gets paid double for Christmas, whether they work it or not. You can either get paid that week (effectively getting 48 hrs pay for a 40 hr week), or 'save' the second eight hours and have the opportunity to take some other day off and get paid for it then. anyone who actually works on Christmas gets the first eight hours at regular pay + $2.
(The grey expands into background which has the map title on the right hand side of the poster).
http://www.njtransit.com/sf_train_schedules.shtm#
Arti
I take it the PDF master map is not generated from the same database. Someone at NJT has to redraw it.
It may be generated from the files for actual printing.
Arti
If anything there will be less cars available because the B and D are being returned to their normal length, yet the W is sticking around.
YES!!!!!
W Broadway Local
Extending the G does not mean removing the F local. The current running plan I hear is to run the F and G local and the V express. Remember, once there's express service on that line, the G can't terminate at Smith-9th anymore, meaning it must continue to Church.
Sounds like too much service! Damn! They might as well create another line to run along the Fulton's A/C line.. which I think is more deserving of an express. But since the people don't hold the same influence when it comes to politics and economics, they won't get what they want!
W Broadway Local
David
If there isn't sufficient rolling stock during rush hours, then extend it off-peak only. The peak F runs frequently, so the extra transfer isn't as much of a hardship as at other times.
I think they'd also have to do some maintenance at Church Avenue, replacing the switches.
If be happy to have the G even if nothing else changes.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/14/nyregion/thecity/14fyi.html
#3 West End Jeff
Arti
Perhaps if you witness someone "surfing" your train on the elevated line, you can pull the cord.
That's a good plan! The sudden deceleration of the train will topple him off, and he will be a ketchup red splat on the street below. People will gather around and cluck their tongues, saying how good a student he was, and that he was only trying to be one of the boys, and the gene pool will be purged of some more stupid genes.
Way to go!
#3 West End Jeff
:0)
Or if it skips Consumer's Park Station....
In service, if the conductor has indication in both zones, the motorman can operate via buzzer/bypass - meaning that the conductor verifies that all dooes are closed by din of his indication. He signals the train operator by buzzer that it's safe to proceed and then the T/O can energize the bypass.
Coming out of the yard, I can't think of any practical reason why they'd move the train with door open but it can be done, even with all doors open.
Back before I was a road Car Inspector, the R-46s had a zero speed relay which prevented the doors from opening while the train was moving. I do not believe that it had a reverse function, however. I believe that they were removed when the ATO was removed. LIRR and MNRR do have such a circuit.
The Adirondack Scenic Railroad up here in the "Great White North" received the donation of several surplus MNRR FL8s. Getting them to work was a pain until my friend Bob Harrison realized that there was a "P" wire type of circuit which was labeled "Door Interlock" that was preventing the unit from moving. Once this circuit was disabled and removed, the unit worked fine
AEM7
Thanks.
AEM7
When you pull the emergency lever (it's not a cord anymore),
this merely sends a request to a computer. If the computer
thinks you are within a train length of a station, it honors
the request and puts the train into emergency. Otherwise it
just causes a message to pop up on the crew's screens.
The danger is not only "are there legitimate reasons for pulling
the cord in between stations". The question one should ask
is "how reliably does the computer know where the train is?"
I guess reliably enough. We don't ask questions like that about airplane autopilots.
Arti
A better aviation parallel would be fly-by-wire control systems.
The computer technology on the new-tech trains is not built to
those standards.
OK. It would be interesting to know, what are the standards, they have.
Arti
If this computer is the same computer that makes the announcements, not very.
I hope this doesn't affect the car's safety mechanisms.
It's the longer route from the J track at Broadway Junction to Atlantic that seems to confuse the system when shuttle service is running.
#3 West End Jeff
All that brake handle does is to connect to a 90' lever valve that dumps the train-line. And it is that valve that has to be closed again. Unless you give the conductor a break, and tell him which cord was pulled, he will have to inspect the entire train.
That having been said, if a passenger was having a heart attack I might pull the cord while the train is in the station... poor example, I'd actually move the victim to the platform, and let the train get the heck out of there....
If there had been a mugging or a stabbing on the train, I would pull the cord in the station, then have another passenger go and tell the conductor what the emergency is, and why and where the cord was pulled, and what sorts of emergency responses are required.
I would probably want the conductor to close up the doors to protect the crime scene.
Now we can have some of the C/Rs here evaluate my plan of action.
Elias
Not neccessarly, a good Train Operator can try to charge the train and look at his gauge and tell where the cord could have been pulled. I mean he won't know its the 7th car on the 1 end unless he is operating an R142/R143 where the computer tells you but the T/O can tell if its the front half or the rear I think.
Do mu trains all charge from the first car? Each pair of cars has a compressor, or do they not work in unison to charge a train line.
A subway train is fairly short. He might know front, middle or back, but I think not. Maybe you can tell on a freight train, but a subway train is only 500 feet long (as far as a brake pipe is concerned.)
Elias
Back in the 70's when you had door problems and had to take a train out of service, you could always count on 3-4 angry geese yanking the cord as they left their car as their final comment on your "situation." :(
Elias
I would probably want the conductor to close up the doors to protect the crime scene.
Really? Would you like to be trapped in the car with the mugger, with no ability to escape? So he can use you as a hostage to bargain his escape?
I would assume that the mugger would have gotten out of the car and/or off of the train as soon as possible. He certainly would not be on the car while the geese are pulling the cord and sending for the conductor.
In any event, if a cord were pulled in the station, both the C/R and the T/O would be out of their cabs looking to see what the problem was. The closing of the doors to protect the scene would only be to prevent new geeseses from entering the car and contaminating the evience.
Elias
The latter is known as the "brake disablement" cord.
Maybe the train cars would uncouple? Or one cord brakes the A truck, while the other accelerates the B truck --> truck ejector. That would stop the car far more quickly than a BIE. :-)
The Catergories Are:
Best Regional Railroad
Best Commuter Railroad
Best City Railroad
Best Shortline Railroad
Best Interurban Railroad
Best Intercity Railroad
Best Tourist Railroad/Museum
PS: these can be railroads from outside the US too
Amtrak midwest service
Amtrak NEC
Amtrak california services(San Joquain?)
Metra
Are there any other regional servies that are not Amtrak?
Best Commuter Railroad:
LIRR
MBTA
Metra
Metrolink(that's the one in LA, right?)
Best City Railroad: Huh? You mean subways, or in city RR's? Either way, 4 isnt enough for this if you mean subways
Metro(Washington DC)
LIRR(or NYC subway if you mean just subways)
Chicago el
BART
London Underground
Oadkyu(is that the correct spelling, I'm thinking of the line is Japan)
Best Shortline Railroad: Not too good on this one, but here's what I know/remember right now
New York Atlantic
Shoreline East
M&E
(What's that line from Chicago through Indiana?)
Best Interurban Railroad: No clue what makes a RR an interurban. All I know is NYW&B, which is long gone
Best Intercity Railroad:
Amtrak
VIA
ICE
That's all I know off the top of my head
Best Tourist Railroad/Museum:
Strassburg RR
Steamtown
Branford(if trolleys count)
Kingston(if trolleys count)
uhhh...RMLI??? Once they get the shuttle train goin then definately
Gog Railway?
I don't really kno too much on out of US RR's.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/13/national/13BARN.html
Preferably the Lionel Christmas Choo-Choo...
Readers sum it up in a phrase: You Know You're From LI If...
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What About You?
How do you know if someone if from Long Island?
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I like to eat at all the food places on the Island. I like pizza and Ralph's Ices. Let's have a wiener roast today and have a food chat about favorite foods on Long Island and where to eat.
Submitted by: Too Fat Franks
12:39 PM EST, Dec 14, 2003
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You pronounce the word "idea" with an "r" sound.
Submitted by: displaced Jerseyite
12:32 PM EST, Dec 14, 2003
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Readers sum it up in a phrase: You Know You're From LI If...
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In the Flight Path of Controversy
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Beth DeCarbo, LI Life editor
December 14, 2003
We're a unique breed, those of us who call Long Island home. Just ask the 200 or so readers who responded to finish the phrase: "You know you're from Long Island if..."
Cited were things like the food we eat, the way we talk, sentimental destinations and the high cost of living. Thanks to everyone who wrote in - the letters were a hoot. Maybe someday we'll hook up at the mawl for a cupluv slices.
- Beth DeCarbo, LI Life editor
You know you're from Long Island
if ...
... you say you live on Long Island instead of in Long Island.
- Lainie Bloom, Bayville
... you've lived in Brooklyn all of your life.
- John H. Curd, Commack (formerly
of Brooklyn)
... your property taxes equal the cost of a new, midsized automobile.
- Ellen Rothman, Woodbury
... you know how great a double-double burger from All American tastes after a full day at the beach.
- Vincent Austin, Massapequa
... you know that the Nathan's in Oceanside used to be called the Roadside Rest.
- Audrey Kurtin, Bay Shore
... you know what OBI and CMI stand for.
- Arlene Caselli, Port Jefferson
... you know that Glen Cove Road is in Mineola and Mineola Avenue is in Roslyn and Roslyn Road is in Westbury and Westbury Avenue is in Carle Place.
- Elaine Anderson, East Meadow
... you pronounce it Com-mack and not Co-mack.
- Robert Blake, East Northport
... you know someone who has seen Billy Joel in Oyster Bay.
- Donna Ruiz, Glen Head
... you recognize the places Nelson DeMille writes about in "The Gold Coast."
- Roberta Furman, Old Bethpage
... you went to Jahn's (ice cream parlor) on Hempstead Turnpike after a session at the "rolla" rink.
- Maria DiBenedetto, Wantagh
... when directions to your house begin with, "Exit ... "
- Ellen Nardozza, Medford
... you remember Old Country Road when it was an old country road.
- Ruthann De Stefano, Fort Salonga
... you know that Field Six is not a field but a place to park and enjoy beautiful Jones Beach.
- Jackie Priestley, Wantagh
... you still love the Good Rats-rats-rats-rats.
- Lisa Kristel, Valley Stream-Syosset
... you have to get a permit to have a yard sale.
- Unsigned
... election signs go up on your neighbors' lawns telling you to vote Republican. (What your neighbor doesn't tell you is that if he doesn't post the sign, he's probably out of a job.)
- Allen Ambrose, Westbury
... if you say Wantagh as Wantaw, not Wantog.
- Scott Lownie, Levittown
... you love the Island for its proximity to Manhattan, but you rarely cross any bridges, so your E-ZPass has a permanent $25 balance.
- Patricia Riew, Wantagh
... your childhood memories include eating Zorn's chicken out of the blue bucket.
- Andrea Miller, East Meadow
... you mail this letter to Newsday, then drive to Melville on the LIE and the letter gets there first.
- Tony Raiona, Mastic
... when worse comes to worst, there's always a diner open.
- Unsigned
... someone asks you, "How far is ... ," and you answer in time rather than in distance.
- Angela Einsel, Huntington Station
... you have the choice of dozens of beautiful beaches and you still own a swimming pool.
- Jeff Mark, Smithtown
... you go for a cuplov slices, you gotta get da bagels 'n' cream cheese, and you axed, "Did ja eet jet?"
- Patrice Stango, Lindenhurst
... every rational voice inside you that talks about rent, phone bills, taxes, electricity, mortgages, politicians, health care, traffic or sun tells you to leave ... and you still can't go.
- Gene Caiola, Bay Shore
... you remember going to Jolly Rogers at the corner of Hempstead Turnpike and Hicksville Road.
- Timothy L. Busam, Levittown
... you still look for the toll booth on the Southern State Parkway in Valley Stream.
- Liz Podgorsky, Lynbrook
... you know your distant future might involve the state of Florida.
- Laurie Chester, North Bellmore
... you refer to Westchester County as upstate.
- Judith Ehrbar, Northport
... you know where "The End" is.
- Judy Mohrmann, Massapequa Park
And If That's Not Enough
Just type "you know you're from Long Island" into an Internet search engine (like Google), and you'll unearth a number of hometown gems. Here's a sampling:
You know you're from Long Island if ...
... you feel like you know Howard Stern.
... when you're away from Long Island, you love it and when you're there, you don't.
... you know the exact point at which Queens turns into Nassau simply on intuition.
... you're still waiting for a bridge to Connecticut.
... you've tried to use your father's monthly ticket to ride the LIRR. And it worked.
... you've never really fully evaluated the meaning of the name Hicksville.
... you know where the Commack Motor Inn is but you "have never been there."
... you've never been to Times Square on New Year's Eve.
... no, you don't want mustard on that burger!
... the most exciting day of summer is when all tickets to every Jones Beach show go on sale.
... you want the Yankees to stay in the Bronx, but would probably go to more games if they moved to Manhattan.
... you can order a pizza pie and a soda and people will understand.
... you've never taken an MTA bus.
... you felt slighted when Snapple sold out.
... you don't associate Fire Island with gay men.
... when you hear Billy Joel's "Scenes From an Italian Restaurant" you try to figure out where it is. It's Christiano's in Syosset.
... you know which parts of "The Godfather" were filmed on LI.
... you've said stupid things like, "Strong Island."
... you always liked Billy Joel, but as soon as you leave, you love Billy Joel.
... you don't see the big deal about the Hamptons.
... you think if you're not from Long Island or NYC, you're not really from New York.
... you don't go to Manhattan, you go to "The City."
... you never realize you have an accent until you leave.
... at some point in your life, you've gone clamming.
... you curse. A lot.
... if your parents didn't, your grandparents lived in the city.
... you or someone you know has gotten an animal from North Shore Animal League.
... you never want to "change at Jamaica."
... your parents took you to Nathan's or Carvel (on the way home from the beach).
... you can name at least three players on the Islanders' Stanley Cup teams.
... you cope with the fact that the Islanders have completely tanked since LaFontaine left.
... you remember the exact day you stopped going to Jones Beach and started going to Robert Moses.
... you've had a seagull poop on your car.
... even the concept of the Islanders ever leaving is unrealistic.
... you've cruised on the "turnpike."
... you know someone with a cabana.
... you've played golf at Eisenhower Park (legally or otherwise).
... you hate paying tolls.
... you don't have to go far to see your family.
... you know the difference between WLIR and WDRE, even though they played the same music.
... you were an Islander/Met/Jet fan or a Ranger/Yankee/Giant fan. There was no crossover.
... you can correctly pronounce Hauppauge, Commack, Islip, Islandia and Massapequa.
... there are no real bagels or pizza anywhere else (except The City).
"if you bitch about your N21 service"
Ah, but one of the lines was "you've never taken an MTA bus."
...if you rewrite history so that Nassau County wasn't once part of Queens.
One of the danger signals -- I could feel it when the train went into Floral Park. Though the borough boundary must go through someone's house.
...you know that your computer/PDA/cellphone-equipped kids will
be forever deprived by the disappearance of Nunley's.
...you got lost driving home the day they replaced the parkway signs
with those little white squares with the lighthouses.
...you miss the rocket and the maze at Wantagh Park.
Oh yes, I used to LOVE going there when I was a kid!
AirTrain JFK opens 100 years to the day after the Wright Brothers flight.
I think everyone should bicycle to Jamaica to take the AirTrain.
LGA: A new airtrain/airtrain line from Jamaica to LGA via Van Wyck with a stop at the Flushing Main St station, terminating at the ferry terminal near the delta shuttle terminal
The Astoria lines extended somehow from the current terminus(NO NEW BRANCHES! It'd only clog up service). Does not stop at the ferry terminal, ends at Flushing Main St station with stop at Shea Stadium
ISP: Branch from KO to airport. New modifications to schedule would follow. Example of eastbound train schedule on weekends(I figure that at the earliest, this would be done with ESA, so I've figured that in too as an origin)(trains every hour):
GCT-ISP
NYP-ISP
NYP-Greenport
GCT-ISP
NYP-ISP
GCT-Greenport
GCT-ISP
NYP-ISP
NYP-Greenport
GCT-ISP
NYP-ISP
GCT-Greenport
Something like that. All in all, every train that terminates at KO is extended to ISP, except for the ones that are extended to Greenport. No transfer would be required for those 4 Greenport trains, well, MAYBE at Jamaica.
Then some trains from Greenport to ISP would run too, maybe 3 per day, say at 7am, noon, and 4 pm.
Stewart Airport: This is part of the I-287 rail line plan for trains to run from Port Chester-White Plains-Tappan Zee bridge-Suffern-Stewart Airport. This is a great rail line and should definately be done
EWR: PATH should replace airtrain. Allows for direct rail to EWR from midtown and downtown, and from exchange place.
Republic airport: just re-open the old republic station and have a bus running every now and then. It's a small airport with no scheduled flights really, so it'd only be limited service.
HPN: Maybe some kind of branch off the Harlem line from White Plains North? Trains would originate at GCT, stops at 125th St-Fordham-Bronxville-Scarsdale-Hartsdale-White Plains-White Plains North-then on to the airport
Hartford: What's the airport there? What's the closest rail line to it? If it's what I'm thinking, then trains should run from the airport to Springfield, Ma(or even Worcester), and another line stopping at Hartford-New Haven-Stamford and other stops along the way. Maybe even a line to New London, or would that be too much?
Tweed Airport: Pretty close to the current New Haven Union Station, right? Isn't there a track that gets pretty close to the airport, or is it gone now? Either way, some way from Tweed with lines to Stamford, Ct, and maybe New London and Hartford(maybe even to the Hartford airport)
Is that airport in bridgeport used for regularly scheduled flights? What about Danbury airport?
Also, Westhampton has a HUGE airport, so big they were even thinking about using it as an emergency landing area for space shuttles. However, it is hardly used and has no regularly scheduled flights. I think airlines should start doin some regional flights to this airport. Maybe just summer only service? Trains running from the airport to Montauk and maybe to the North Fork as well via the Manorville-Eastport ROW.
Any other airport that I'm forgetting?
For the same cash, why not (e.g.) run more trains to Westport and shorten its waiting list for the MNRR parking lot, run AirTrain all over far Queens, run three-minute srvice on the Long Island lines, and really get people out of their cars? THEN they'd take a train to the plane, transfer or no transfer.
Arti
Obviously for me to have a direct link to the airports.
Arti
If I had to make a choice between the two, I'd go for Penn, but as you are offering both, I'll take it.
Arti
But they're doing a magnificent job redoing PATH, and JFK AirTrain is about to open--the first complete new line in New York in generations, and done without the endless bickering of NY politicians.
As far as ISP goes, I still think it should have the direct rail. If you think about it, there are only so many ways the track can get around to the terminals. It is possible. The fact that it is an awkward routing shouldn't really be much of a factor. Also, the airport gets some pretty heavy use courtesy of Southwest. And just remember, almost everywhere on LI is served by LIRR. Trains can easily run to Greenport and Manhattan via the main line, and to Montauk via the Manorville-Eastport ROW.
Stewart will almost definately get rail service if the i-287 rail line is built. While it certainly isn't JFK, LGA, or EWR, it still has a steady number of flights. A direct rail line would also bring more use. I'm willing to bet there are plenty of people that don't know of Stewart Airport or the fact that there is an airport in the Newburgh area.
Closest rail to HPN is the Harlem line, but now that I look again, it's pretty damn far. Maybe just buses to White Plains and the suburbs and some other areas, maybe some places in CT.
Wasn't Republics station closed only when LIRR got the C3's?
BDL should definatly have direct rail goin there. They've got the rail line, use the damn thing. Where should it go to though? New Haven? Stamford? New London? Springfield?
So as of now, here's what I think are the priority of which lines should be built(listed in order from top priority to lowest)
LGA
BDL
EWR
ISP
SFW
Also, do you think it any airline will ever start usin Gabreski on a regular basis? Ya know, scheduled passenger flights and stuff. It'd be great for the Hamptons. I think flights from Michigan, Florida, Maryland, Phili, and maybe one from some other place in New England and one from someplace a bit further out west.
Flights(wow, your right, I do have a lot of proposals, lol):
Orlando-Phili-Westhampton
Atlanta-Baltimore-Westhampton
Detroit-Albany/Syracuse-Westhampton
Manchester-Providence-Westhampton
Just a few gueses, and yes, I have met people from Michigan and Florida who go to the Hamptons yearly, and I have a friend in Phili who does the same.
New Haven, New London, Springfield, yes. Stamford, no. Stamford is much, much closer to Westchester County Airport than it is to Bradley. Although a rail line from Stamford to Westchester Airport would also depend on the 287 rail line, which would have to be connected to MN.
"Awkward" is putting it very mildly. Consider this diagram of ISP. The LIRR is off to the top of the diagram. A rail line would have to be threaded somehow through the parking lots of the hangars on the upper left of the diagram, then around the end of Runway 6/24 on the lower left, and finally in and around all sorts of airport facilities along the bottom of the diagram before finally reaching the terminal. While it's not apparent from the diagram, there are industrial properties wedged right up against airport land on the bottom of the diagram, further constraining the location of any rail line.
All this, for what? Southwest Airlines has 24 flights in and out of ISP each day. Given WN's decent load factors, that's probably 3,000 passengers. This may increase a little over time, but due to stiff competition from B6 at JFK we're unlikely to see any dramatic increases. Other carriers at ISP operate regional jets and turboprops and probably don't carry 1,000 pax between them. So all in all, there probably are fewer than 4,000 people using ISP per day, only some of whom would be potential rail customers. That's so far short of what would be needed to make a costly rail extension worthwhile, it's scarcely worth discussing.
According to the most recent schedule, WN indeed has 24 daily departures from ISP on weekdays (weekends are slightly different):
BWI - 9; MDW -3; FLL -3; BNA - 3; MCO - 3; TPA - 2; PBI - 2 = 24.
Aside from those flights you listed, there are also flights to:
Albuquerque
HOU(Houston Hobby)
Las Vegas
LA
Louisville
New Orleans
Orange County
Phoenix
Reno
Scaramento
San Jose
Seattle/Tacoma
Tucson
Atlanta and Cincinnati via Delta
Boston via American Eagle
Phili via US airways
BDL via Continental Express(This is very strange to me. I saw it on the departure list but I can't find a schedule for it)
Cleaveland and Grand Rapids via Northwest.
There are many others too. I think there are some to syracuse, buffalo, and rochester.
This equals well over 24, even over atleast 40! Then there's the arrivals from those cities.
There used to be in-city airport check-in, where they took your luggage from you (The West London Air Terminal on (I think) the Hammersmith Road was an example). They disappeared a while back, but there has been a renaissance. You can check in at Paddington and get rid of your luggage for a number of carriers when you take the train to Heathrow.
Bringing transit to underprivileged neighbourhoods are often schemes that will generate the greatest benefits. But even the railfan often overlooks the mass transit function of the subway.
AEM7
"However, the size of most airports in relation to the metro area mean that airport can at most generate one stop on a heavy rail line, or a dedicated bus shuttle from a transit center: not a whole line for the sole purpose of serving airports. "
Atlanta, Newark and Chicago are consistent with your view. The Airport circulators there connect with one stop on the mass transit train. It is not possible to operate Atlanta's Airport or Denver's Airport without a circulator.
New York's JFK Airport has two stops instead of one: Howard Beach and Jamaica. The Airport Circulator was extended to meet transit at those stops. The PA's Circulator is the Airport's investment, not the Transit Authority's, though the TA did spend $350 million of its own money to renovate the two relevant stations.
So JFK is consistent with your view.
Very true, but then again, look at how many people are comming to LGA, JFK, EWR, and ISP daily. It is still enough to warrant service as long as it goes to where the majority of people go. The astoria el extension is a must. PATH to EWR is another very important line. An ISP rail line is fairly important to help the airport grow. Also, you make it seem like I'm saying to run trains JFK airtrain style, once ever 4 minutes. This isn't true. Try looking at my proposed schedule again.
Also, while a mall is another very important area to serve, it does not have the same amount of people as an airport does. Also, malls usually have their peak use during weekends and vacations. Airports is all around heavy use, with even heavier use during vacations.
LGA is very important as it's the most centrally located airport in NYC. It would be great if one day there'd be flights LGA-LCY.
My idea for an airport connector for LGA is as follows:
Basic service pattern would be:
6pth Astoria to Jamaica
6tph Metropolitan to Shea
6tph Woodside to Shea
About the baggage check in thing, I think it could work at some stations. For ISP, maybe NYP/GCT, Jamaica, Mineola, Hicksville, and some other stop before KO.
How many problems has there been with this process over in London?
18 new cars were ordered for the service - without luggage racks!!!!.
Stupid.
So where do the passengers with luggage put their bags?
ON THE SEATS!!! Is that stupid, or what?
Even the most underused Rapid Transit line (Cleveland's Red Line) in the country has luggage racks in the cars, since it serves Cleveland's Hopkins Airport.
The rail station also seems rather awkwardly located. I wandered around BWI for a while when I had a long wait between connecting flights a couple of years ago. I of course was curious to see the light rail connection - though alas I didn't have quite enough time to risk a short ride on it - and was surprised at just how long a trek the station was from the main part of the airport. The International Terminal was a ghost town in the early afternoon, almost entirely deserted, and in any event seems to have only a couple of flights each day.
The reason the terminal seems empty is that the interational flights seem to be clustered for the early AM and late PM. The "long trek" is due to the fact that the terminal are the last new piers built at BWI.
As to the Light Rail's circutious route, that was dictated by the terrain, the fact that the railroad and the airport are not adjacent to each other (in fact, if the WB&A were still in business it would be in a tunnel under the airport) and the existing roadways that were already there.
One interesting transit connection is that WMATA now runs a bus from Greenbelt to BWI, so we now have a Maryland MTA and WMATA direct connection. Could DART be next?
An R-62 Departing Bedford Park Boulecard
An R-142 and a Redbird Together in the Snow
Angle shot of R-142 1220
R-142A 7661 Entering Bedford Park Boulevard
2 R-142's Side By Side
The Redbirds live!
Youre banned from making any more comments about the redbirds.
I was out there today also but it already started to rainnnnnnnnnnn...
I don't know what the hell plan 9 is.
It's not from hell, it's from outer space.
Arti
So's mike.
http://www.badmovies.org/movies/plannine/
It's a real slushy mess out there.
I am very fortunate to have an actual original roll sign from one of the NY&Q trolleys and there are quite a number of interesting destinations on it..... But I am more indebted to Mr. Vincent Seyfried, who has spent countless hours with me preparing this book and sharing his treasure chest of information about New York metropolitan area trolley and railroad operations. He's 85 and still very active. God bless him!
One last thing about the Manhattan and Queens. The southern end of the line ended at 109th Avenue and 157th Street in South Jamaica, just west of the Long Island Rail Road tracks. However, track had been laid on the other side of 109th Avenue for an extension. The line, however, was never extended past the LIRR. Mr. Seyfried had always heard of this track existing, and one day he rode his bicycle to that area (something surely no one would do today in this dangerous neighborhood) from his house in Hollis. He didn't see any tracks but brought a broom with him (109th Avenue was a dirt road) and swept the area until tracks were revealed and photographed. Now that's diehard research!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The line was abandoned in two parts: On Aug. 3, 1925, the main part of the line from Woodside to 99th St. & 43rd Ave., leaving a shuttle operation on the remainder of the line to Flushing. On Oct. 29, 1925, the remainder of the line was abandoned w/o any bus replacement.
I walked the entire line in the summer of 1961. The flashboards (that carry the trolley wires) under the IRT on 61st St. were still intact, as was a line pole on Woodside Ave. over the LIRR. I also discovered the remains of a line pole somewhere on 43rd Ave. No remains of any rail were found anywhere, as the line was torn up immediately after abandonment.
I have a transfer in my collection from the Corona Line, dated Dec. 5, 1915.
a 7 extention from Times Square along the West Side Highway from 42 Street to the Battery. This will be the far West Side trunk line. Stops will be made at 36 St (Javits Center), 23 St (Chelsea Piers), 14 St, Christopher, Canal St/Holland Tunnel, Chambers St, Battery Park City/WTC, before heading to Brooklyn. The 7 West Side trunk line will be great for people on the far West Side-who currrently have to walk to 8th Av to use the IND.
extention of the L north from 8th Av/14 St to the West Side Highway and north to the new sports complex.
The High Line freight viaduct could be used as a bikeway or, as I suggest, a monorail.
What?
I think the 7 is good as it is, and should be left alone.
:)
I think it should just extend to downtown via the highline to Christopher st, then via the westside highway, either above or below it, or hell, next to it! lol. I like your list of stops, but one more maybe, Battery Park/Whitehall Terminal.
--Z--
Battery Park City/WTC station will be located on the West Side Highway between Liberty and Rector streets. This station will be great for residents at Battery Park City and workers at the World Fincancial Center and the new WTC. It will link up into the WTC transit hub.
The last stop in Manhattan on the 7 will be Battery Place. Located at West Street and Battery Place, this station will have connections with the 4/5 at Bowling Green 2 blocks east, with a possible South Ferry transit hub between the 1/9, 4,5,N,R trains. Provisions for service to Brooklyn will be built at the station and tunnels, if needed.
These are the readings:
15TH AV.
162ND ST.
SANFORD AV.
WOODSIDE
FLUSHING BRIDGE
KISSENA PARK
HILLCREST
JAMAICA
COLLEGE PT.
SUBWAY
LUTHERAN CEM.
GRAND AV.
MT. ZION CEM.
SPECIAL
And that is the first mass transit reference I've ever seen to Hillcrest. Assuming that the Hillcrest in the rollsign refers to the Hillcrest section of Queens between Kew Gardens Hills and Fresh Meadows.
"Hillcrest" was a crossover north of Union Turnpike where the cars could reverse. This was for Flushing Bridge / Hillcrest service. Also, the "15th Avenue" destination refers to a turnback at College Point Boulevard and 15th Avenue. The "162nd Street" sign refers to a turnback at 45th Avenue and 162nd Street, although the cars could also reverse on the single track a block further south at 46th Avenue.
:>) ~ Sparky
12th December, 1988: Clapham Junction train crash kills 35.
I like the new cars. The canned announcements have to go though. I found them repetitive, obnoxious & far too 'polite'. Part of the fun of riding is hearing the TA workers rhyme off the dialogue as fast as they can, especially on a run through midtown. Some of them are good at it.
Two questions:
I had been reading about this 'garbage vaccuum' train and so was expecting a cleaner system in general, but I was a bit surprised that the trackbeds were as littered as they were. I suppose it doesn't get a chance to make the rounds that often. Has it been effective by any means?
Something we have little (or none?) of in Toronto, is signals within platform lengths. I noticed that many of them seemed to be timers as well. I guess those are to control station entry speed, but why are they necessary?
Thanks Gents.
MW
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Hope to see your system one day!
If you do ever make it up here, don't be too bowled over by the simplicity of the subway (!) in comparison to yours...if there's anything that Toronto's got going for it (other than general cleanliness) it's the intermodal transfers. On day 2 of the huge snowstorm when I had ridden the F to Roosevelt to catch the Q33 to La Guardia and was waiting with my luggage on an embankment of snow, I was thinking about just that!
Nice photo, though. But it ain't goin on my desktop. :)
It will probably be swapped out for that work train pic I took today.
Is if the JFK Airtrain?
SEPTA's Norristown Line?
LA's Blue, Green, and Gold Lines?
Dallas' DART?
Houston's METRORAIL?
St.Louis' METROLINK?
Boston's Green Line, SEPTA Subway-Surface, Media-Sharon Hill lines?
Is Light Rail defined by its operating characteristics, like at grade operation, on-board fare collection, or a rapid-transit style collection or the POP fare collection method?
Definitions of Light Rail on the Web:
Generally applies to electric rail transportation capable of operating short train sets and that uses exclusive, but not usually grade-separated, rights-of-way. The Green Line is an example of light rail.
www.ctps.org/bostonmpo/mpo/gloss.htm
The modern version of a streetcar or tram. Usually runs above ground on tracks in the street though sometime on a separate right-of-way
dnrweb.dnr.state.md.us/smartgrowth/GLOSSARY.HTM
A streetcar-type vehicle operated on city streets, semi-exclusive rights-of-way, or exclusive rights-of-way. Service may be provided by step-entry vehicles or by level boarding.
www.bts.gov/publications/transportation_profile/minnesota/html/chapter_i.html
A modern electric train system capable of on-street running, but segregated from road traffic as much as possible
www.wb2020.qld.gov.au/techpapers/p_glossary.htm
Lightweight passenger rail cars operating singly (or in short, usually two-car, trains) on fixed rails in right-of-way that is not separated from other traffic for much of the way. Light rail vehicles are driven electrically with power being drawn from an overhead electric line via a trolley or a pantograph. Also known as "streetcar," "tramway," or "trolley car." () -->
www.travelmatters.org/about/glossary
Street Running
Overhead Current Collection
Single "units" that are run in pairs, but not longer.
Onboard fare collection or POP
low-level or mid-level boarding stations
liberal signal rules and line of sight operation
open right of ways that re not grade seperated
light rail (<115# RE)
Is if the JFK Airtrain?
No
SEPTA's Norristown Line?
No
LA's Blue, Green, and Gold Lines?
Yes
Dallas' DART?
Isn't this a commuter rail line?
St.Louis' METROLINK?
Yes
Boston's Green Line, SEPTA Subway-Surface, Media-Sharon Hill lines?
Yes
The rails, by the way, are heavy.
Isn't this a commuter rail line?
-----------
You're thinking of TRE, or Trinity Railway Express which is a diesel commuter system with eitehr Budd RDC's or Bi-level coaches.
Dart is LRT just like Houstons gonna be I understand.
I wouldn't assume the people would refer to them as DART, since it's a different system connecting to another area like PATCO does.
I noticed on The T website for fort worth, the VRE cars are actually pictured with the buses and paratransit vehicles, so that's got me wondering too.
I got to ride all three modes operated by DART a long time ago. I liked the light rail line, the best part being when the line crosses a large wetland on a viaduct south of downtown. The Budd cars were being used on the TRE at the time, too, and they were nice and clean. You can see pictures of both the Budds and the new Toronto-style bilevel cars at DART's TRE page. I like the color scheme of the coaches. It's nice to see the flag of a state which is commonly associated with car-only transportation used so boldly to promote mass transit.
Mark
Mike is right in saying:
Light Rail systems generally exhibit many of the following traits:
Street Running
Overhead Current Collection
Single "units" that are run in pairs, but not longer.
Onboard fare collection or POP
low-level or mid-level boarding stations
liberal signal rules and line of sight operation
open right of ways that re not grade seperated
light rail (<115# RE)
But there are many exceptions, and by focusing on a definition we actually forget that what you're doing is designing a system to move people -- whatever it's called.
For example, light rail out West is very different from light rail here. Light rail out west has real trains (sometimes up to three cars are permanently articulated), and they have wide loading gauge, and they often have high platforms and high speed running, and off-vehicle fare collection. But it's still light rail, because it's what the community will accept.
On the other hand, there's heavy rail that have overhead wires, have grade crossings, and don't have turnstiles, and runs single cars or two cars that are coupled together. (Skokie Swift line in Chicago).
Definition is misleading. The issue is: for the passenger volume we are trying to carry, do we need turnstiles? Do we want street running (thus necessitating overhead wires)? Do we want full grade separation? Do we want some of the light rail features, and some of the heavy rail ones? What will the community accept?
So it's kind of dumb to ask for a definition.
Dallas' DART?
Isn't this a commuter rail line?
Dallas Area Rapid Transit. Operator of bus and light rail. The Dallas-Fort Worth Commuter Rail is called the Trinity Railway Express or TRE for short.
Boston's Green Line
This is a "trolley".
AEM7
I think the bucks are there for heavy rail systems...a lot of these light rail systems end up costing as much as heavy rail might. I think light rail seems cheaper up front, even though it might not be in the long run. It's also "non-threatening" to people whose only understanding of heavy rail is the images they see on TV of subways painted to look like NYC in the 1970s when graffiti and crime ran amok.
As far as what mode is best for a given city, that depends on a lot of things. Denver, Houston, Dallas, and Phoenix are definitely large enough for heavy rail, provided urban planning were carried out to foster denser land-use patterns. For smaller cities a light rail rapid transit system with dedicated ROW might be a better option, provided costs are kept under control. Cities like Louisville or Albuquerque, which have decided to build light rail may have made the right choice. I don't see Albuquerque ever having the population for heavy rail.
The other light rail proposal I think that is of good merit is that of Atlanta's circle line, which is planned to provide crosstown service to compliment MARTA's heavy rail service to and from the CBD. It's the light rail systems that are integrated with heavy rail tha fascinate me most, and this looks like a good model for such integration.
Mark
And they now can see how it feels when they walk through the denser areas of their cities and see subway or elevated train stations on the sidewalks. They will get to experience having busy newstands as part of their terrain. There will now be rumbling train noises intrinsically mixed in with the other sounds of their downtowns. People will have to run to catch a train. And there is going to be some new experiences with being around "others", of finding new things to be interested in with people "you normally wouldn't meet up with".
I just think this is going to result in some interesting bursts of energy in art and literature. The "subway mindset" is getting around...
Mark
If they could afford to. Those aren't exactly the cheapest cities in the USA to live in. Maybe that shows those dumbass urban planners what they should be building.
Of course it does. Since small towns and suburban sprawls are so much cheaper, they should dismantle large cities like New York, Chicago, and San Francisco, so everyone can afford to live in a big house and drive a big SUV. Those urban planners who are talking about smart growth is so nuts when all that smart growth does is drive up property rates without any benefits. They are just displacing the poor from the cities. Where will all those poor people go?
AEM7
However you bring up an extremely valid point in that it is poor longtime residents who can end up getting squeezed out when people with higher incomes return to the the city. This is a very relevant issue in my own West Philly neighborhood which is currently undergoing gentrification. Just how we will be able to at once enjoy the benefits of revitalization without pushing out the people who stuck with the neighborhood for decades before it became hip to live here is a question that has not yet been settled.
I don't know a lot about strategies which would lead to mixed-income neighborhoods, but if anyone knows more about them, I'd love to hear it.
Mark
Such as half-decent public transportation ;-)
Blandtown?
Mark
I can't tell you the origin of the name Blandtown, but it's the home of the massive NS Inman Yard. A developer also wants to build a huge mixed-use development there, presumably because of the prospect of the Belt Line getting built, in addition to the resurgence the area is going through.
Mark
Wow, a place I actually been to. That place will be hard to develop. It's very close to downtown, but there is literally nothing there. Maybe the belt line would help you get some places, but it'll still look like the middle of nowhere. Will take 10-20 years of development effort for anything worth living to be built in that area, plus the railroad yard would need to be mitigated. Too many trucks.
AEM7
Street Running There's some running in the median of a grade separarted highway on the Beckton branch, but no true on street running.
Overhead Current Collection Nope, 3rd rail, unusually for the UK with underrunning shoes.
Single "units" that are run in pairs, but not longer. DLR trains are usually two 2-car units. There is a capacity upgrade going on to convert the Bank-Lewisham service to six cars.
Onboard fare collection or POP I don't think all stations by any means have turnstiles.
low-level or mid-level boarding stations High level throughout.
liberal signal rules and line of sight operation Nope - full automatic operation.
open right of ways that re not grade seperated Nope - fully grade separated.
light rail (<115# RE) I presume so.
So the "in general" statement can sometimes be almost completely wrong.
Or rather the people in charge of the Docklands redevelopment thought that they needed a transit system, saw that light rail was cheap, replaced all the crappy features of it with good ones and came up with a huge success.
It's like: This is my grandfather's ax. My father replaced the blade and I replaced the handle.
In my opinion, most of HBLR's function could have been handled better and more efficiently by an expanded PATH system. But NJ Transit, balancing capital budget, function and completion schedule, chose light rail.
I'm not complaining.
Or could it be that most people's perception of light rail are the crappy features that often come with it?
Since the new vehicle was planned to be the replacement for aging PCC streetcars in both cities, the brains at UMTA co-opted the term "light rail" from the British, where it referred to a railroad built to lighter engineering standards than main line railroads.
It's really a marketing term, not an engineering one.
It seems to be used to sell the concept of street railway transit to cites that dumped their streetcars years ago.
The term Light Rail didn't tend to take in Boston, San Francisico or Philadelphia, where the operating agencies refer to their Light Rail lines but the riders still call them streetcars or trolleys.
Baltimore, Cleveland, St. Louis, Dallas, Sacramento, San Jose and San Diego have rail operations that combine streetcar, subway and interurban characteristics, so how do you market it?
The best way to define "Light Rail" is that it is a marketing term. That's all.
Also, I wonder if we were using vehicle size or mass, or even rail size, as our citerion, wouldn't most early (I mean 1820s and 30s here) steam railroads also count as light rail? They were rather small compared to what came later.
Mark
I guess the lesson is pigeon-hole at your own peril!
Mark
1. No longer having to take the bus
2. Traveling 45 MPH in the middle of a snow storm without slipping and sliding
3. Not having to drive to work
4. Being able to be car free
As for an actual definition, I think jersey mike's was the best so far. Short often articulated cars, overhead power, pop fares, and semi seperated right of way.
I am a big fan of SEPTA's Rt. 100 hi-speed line. It doesn't really fit into any catagory but i guess light rail would be the closest (kind of). Fast operation, high platforms for fast loading (in other places a low floor vehicle could accomplish this. see question at bottom). decent headways. The third rail may be a little dated for this type of service but overhead could just as easily be used and was even planed for in the design stage A lot of people argue that the chestnut hill trains should be converted to mass transit, not that i nessessarily agree with this but if they were, I think an operation similar to the norristown line would be a good choice.
oops. got a little of topic. sorry.
Sean@Temple
question- would a low floor lrt be capable of high transit speeds ie. 70-80 mph
Street tramways / streetcars and , later, trolleybuses / trolleycoaches also operated under these provisions. ( Drivers did not require a road licence )
I can only think of two railways that opened under that act and are sitll open:
Vale of Rheidol Light Railway (Aberystwyth - Devil's Bridge)
Welshpool & Llanfair Light Railway (Welshpool - Llanfair Caereinion)
Closed ones I can think of (have I missed any) are:
Bere Alston & Calstock Light Railway (Bere Alston - Callington)
Brackenhill Light Railway (Brackenhill Jct (Yorks.) - Hemsworth Colliery)
Campbeltown & Machrihanish Light Railway (Campbeltown - Machrihanish)
Cleobury Mortimer & Ditton Priors Light Railway (Cleobury Mortimer - Ditton Priors)
Derwent Valley Light Railway (Cuff - Layerthorpe)
East Kent Light Railway (Shepherd's Well - Sandwich Road or Wingham)
Glyn Valley Tramway (Chirk - Glynceiriog)
Kent & East Sussex Light Railway (Headcorn - Robertsbridge)
Mawddwy Light Railway (I can't actually find this one on any map!)
Mid-Suffolk Light Railway (Haughley - Laxfield)
((Swansea &) Mumbles - this preceded the Act, so doesn't count)
North Sunderland Light Railway (Can't find this one either)
Oxford & Aylesbury Tramroad (Quainton Road - Brill)
Rye & Camber Tramway (Rye - Camber)
Selsey Light Railway (Chichester - Selsey)
Shropshire & Montgomeryshire Light Railway (Shrewsbury (Abbey) - Criggion or Llanymynech)
Tanat Valley Light Railway (Blodwell Jct - Llangynog)
Van Light Railway (Caersws - Van)
Wantage Tramway (Wantage Road - Wantage)
Wisbech & Upwell Tramway (Wisbech - Upwell)
It is one way of measuring success.
Some 'Heavy 'rail lines didn't make it either , ie: Great Central ML and Midland to Manchester !
That one is causing no end of problems. Perhaps the most oblique one is the pressure placed on B'ham NS by the loss of the through York - Leicester Cen - Oxford routing.
Catch up with you later !
Everybody knows that light rail glows in the dark.
That is why it is called light rail.
Otherwise it would be dark rail.
Just like all the other rail.
Elias
Mark
A Snowy Day on the Brighton!
Shot of the day:
I noticed: the yellowbird doesn't have a snow plow!
5194 had an orange Q bullet.
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
www.railfanwindow.com
And because everyone's doing it....
SubwaySpot.com, because it's good for your health!
John, while I like the line about "their job is to protect the track," they are actually out there so we get them easily for Monday's rush. the switch that connects Brighton to CIY is out, so the put-ins either get laid up on the structure or go all the way to Whitehall and then back.
I saw him, but he didn't see me, so I took his picture..
I doubt he was a Subtalker, as (I hope) a Subtalker would know better and not use flash.
I was looking for you, it seems you were heading back to 57th street while I was coming down to Sheepshead. Then as I worked my way back towards Manhattan, you were coming back to Brighton.
BTW: The < Q > train on the express track are laid up due to a special (you-never-heard this one) G.O. dealing with the yard switches leading to Stillwell. Some S/B late evening trains end at Kings Highway for the LUs.
It seems you and Chris got the better of the storm. I was out there went it was winding down...
Damm papers due!
It's okay, I was on a crowded JFK shuttle bus going nowhere when the snow turned to rain.
(But your Brighton shots were fantastic. Looks like you made it there on time.)
I'm assigning grades tomorrow. Would you like me to assign you one as well?
I was out there at 2PM. I was writing papers all morning. While i was out there the snow was winding down, and then turned into that stinging freezing rain we all know and love!
Hmmm, maybe next time you should take AirTrain. Oh wait a minute, that'll cost you an extra $5.
It's not like the bus was going nowhere because of heavy traffic. (We were parked alongside the subway station for at least 25 minutes with no driver. Once we got moving, we zigzagged through the parking lot picking up nobody and zipped up the Nassau Expressway to the terminals.) The bus was overcrowded and infrequent because the Port Authority schedules the bus to be overcrowded and infrequent. The rational (and inexpensive) solution to a problem like that is to reschedule the bus -- not to build a gaudy rail line as an alternative to roads that aren't clogged, and then to charge some of its users (those who arrive by subway or live in the neighborhood) for the rides of others (those who arrive by car).
Every time I'm at Howard Beach, somebody excitedly mentions AirTrain. I point out the $5 fare, but only from this side of the fence, not over there (pointing into the parking lot). Invariably I'm asked if the shuttle bus will still be running; I point to the exit from the subway to the parking lot and answer that it will be closed, and that the only passage from the subway to the parking lot will be via the AirTrain turnstiles. Then the Port Authority insults begin. Funny, for all those Howard Beach travelers I've been assured are looking forward to AirTrain and its $5 fare, I haven't found a single one yet.
I know, I was just bustin' because I know how you "love" the new AirTrain arrangement. I figured you were on it for "one last ride".
Thanks.
This one should make you feel more at home:
I'm embarrased I have no snow shots from today. I'm in diesel territory, but I'm in walking distance to the tracks if I wanted to. I REALLY have to get out and take some "snow" photos one of these storms, I haven't taken any since stuff like this for years, subway or LIRR...since stuff like this was still running:
Got up at about 4:30 am, walked up to the train station and took the 5:39 train from Port Washington. 2 M7's were parked on tracks 3 and 4. One was #7016, a usual at PW. On track 2 was an M3, which ran the 5:39 run. Conducter looked like Jimmy from Law&Order. When we got into woodside, I was still tryin to figure out if I should take the 7 and F/B/D or the E and B/D. I stayed on. Got off at penn, ran over to the E. Came in about 5 min. I was about to get up at thinkin I was at the 7th av stop, but I learned that there was a stop at 50th st. lol. Finally got to 7th av, ran downstairs(now I know why my TTTP routing wouldn't have worked). Waited about 15 min for the B/D, I think it was a B that pulled in. It was only 6:45 am on a sat morn and that thing was already pretty full. Took it to Rockefeller Center.
When I got out I could hear Brooks&Dunn practicing Red Dirt Road. Went around, got into the outdoor area. Got a good spot to see, but then got an even better spot on the left side of the stage. The concert was awesome, and I got my pic taken...
http://www.partypics.com/wc.dll?partypics~order~10053624~6
frames 232-234. Yea, that's pathetic lil me, lol.
After the show I waited by the bands vans and town car. Suprised that no one else was there waiten for an autograph. Finally Ronnie Dunn came out, he signed my hat, then Kix Brooks came out and signed.
Went back to the subway, got on the D with a bunch of other people that were there. Switched at 7th Av to the E, damn i was waiten there long. Got to NYP, listened to some guy playin country(I think he was playin Johnny Cash-Ring of Fire) there and makin a few wise cracks( why is it that when a man talks dirty to a woman, it's called sexual harrasment, but when a woman talks dirty to a man it's a dollar 85 per hour?)
Got the 10:22 to PW. I think it was an M1. Got in on time. For the first time in a long time, it wasn't a painfully slow ride into the PW yard/station.
:)
I got it at their concert in New Jersey the summer before last, wore it on both NJT and LIRR. lol.
Your transfer at 7th Avenue was upstairs, both ways. (This is the first I've heard of anyone making that transfer.)
I hope you weren't in a rush. Next time walk the one block from 7th to 6th, either at 32nd or at 50th, and your trip will take a fraction of the time it did. Or just walk the entire way -- it's under a mile.
My Best Photo Album by Christopher Rivera
Its the garbage on the tracks and the decrepitness of the area that takes away from your composition :-(
Also enjoy some shots overall, where there's more to it than just the object that's center of attention. I agree w/you on one thing, that pic's hard on the eye, it has no object you automatically center on, you just wander.
And now i'm turning into some art museum critic, so i'll end with, good job :)
Its now:
(Once you publish a gallery, especially if youre inviting comments, which means that people are going to refer to your pictures, you shouldnt change the locations, at least not for a year or two!)
There's something about the elements in this picture I just love. I'm sure some of it is unintentional, like the people standing over there and such, but that baby is a work of art.
While it's true that subway/elevated service on the WillyB did not begin until 1908, it's still important to note this anniversary. If any bridge has been a true transit workhorse, it's the WillyB. Besides subways and els, it carried trolleys from its opening until December 1948, when the B39 bus took over (and of course still runs).
This scene looks nothing like this anymore as all of the former walkways have been completely removed, and rebuilt differently. The bridge is being repaired, and is in much better shape than just a few years ago. Are these recent observations that you had?
Why did they have to paint the metalwork on the walkways rhubarb though?
A tolled facility is not eligible for 80% federal funding under the Bridge Reconstruction Act. The WB will/has received in excess of 1/2 billion dollars for reconstruction/repair. Tolling would require refund of federal funds already spent.
New money cannot be obtained under the terms of the act for toll bridges. Old bridges that received money under the act cannot be tolled without the approval of the Secretary of Transportation. Historically, that approval has required full remittance of all federal monies spent.
The Manhattan Bridge suffered from putting the heavy train loads on the sides instead of center of the bridge, however, Lindenthal's original design was for an eye-bar link suspension design, which would have accounted for the odd loading. He was kicked off and an apprentice finished the job with the directive to use cables because they were the modern method and to flip the trolley tracks to the top to allow for subway trains instead of El connections.
--Mark
Although the original Dutch spelling of the actual street included the "k," I've never seen it appear on any station sign or transit map.
Does anyone know if the "k" was ever on the station?
Thanks.
Bob Sklar
1PublicServiceAnnouncement9
Orange Line (Dudley-Everett Main Line 'el') in Boston beats that hands down.
AEM7
Bill...(Clinton) !
So far, B-branch and C-branch is cleared. D-branch and E-branch are not yet cleared, although D-branch is used for deadhead moves.
Riding in the middle "C" section is fun. You can feel the truck lurching around. They seem to be doing pretty well in snow. I like the AC whine, sounds like a Networker.
AEM7
But, will they continue?
Considering past performance, I'd say not.
I believe the digital display is LCD. It would be much clearer if it was LED. -Nick
Let's try to think around the issues and make this board more intelligent and informed with respect to transit's final mission: moving the most number of people from where they are to where they want to go, as efficiently as possible.
AEM7
AEM7
God I miss Boston...
--Z--
A direct link between Italy and Sicily (bridge or tunnel);
A rail tunnel between Staten Island and Manhattan (extension of the SAS, if ever built?).
Any comments or additional dreamt-of future rail links via tunnels or bridges?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3317149.stm
Though I don't think the proposed service from Northern Scotland to Casablanca will ever become a reality...
In Russia the track have to be re-construct smaller (to 1435mm) and for
high speed and a new High Speed Line have to be build in Africa. :-)
: )
Mark
Mark
A Straits of Messina Bridge was authorised in July 2002. You can read all about the project here (.pdf link).
Any comments or additional dreamt-of future rail links via tunnels or bridges?
Stranraer to Belfast. :-D
"The train now standing at platform 5 is the 1030 to Belfast Central, calling at Rugby, Stafford, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme for the Lake District, Penrith, Carlisle, Dumfries, Stranraer, Belfast Great Victoria St and Belfast Central."
Oops... forgot the "http://".
This will work.
This is no fantasy - a bridge is planned. (Highway+Railway)
Silvio Berlusconi wants it and so they start planning. It's only a
question when they begin the construction.
Critic are warning, that an earthquake could damage or destroy it
on day. I'm no geologist and don't know much about the area, but
what i've heard i think the critics are right.
If we're talking plate boundaries here, wouldn't the Spanish/Morroccan tunnel have this problem too?
Mark
Dreaming is fun.
Mark
"A new $7 million train station in Edinburgh, Scotland, has people on the go - but they can't go, because the facility was built without a single bathroom.
[It] is not just silly, but actually shameful said Kenny MacAskill of the Scottish National Party"
Mark
Well, the idea was that this would be the first of three wings to the building, and the a the plumbing would be in the central or main part of the building "to be built later".
The pope was not amused, and so we modified the plans, which of course was a good thing, because like the IND second system, it was never built.
Indeed that part that was built did not even have adequate stairways, just two temporary arrangements, one of which was removed when a new building was built. (not the one planned, but a different one, now since demolished anyway).
When that new building was to be demolished, they wanted to remove all of it, but I told them that the stairway had to remain, because the library building had to have two stairways. They hemed and hawed a bit about this, but the archetect set them straight, "Yes, the stairway had to remain."
So even in this day in age, priests who design buildings still need a frewuent foot in the butt.
Elias
That's right. Little wet tracks leading up the stairs and to the McDonald's on the corner.
: )- Elias
O.K., it's good for a laugh at the Scots, but actually this isn't a major station. It's a new commuter station to serve a business park on the outskirts of Edinburgh. Seven million doesn't actually buy you that much of a station - the new PATH WTC *temporary* station cost forty times as much. Does every MNRR or LIRR station have restrooms? Not every British suburban station does - and I *know* how few NYC subway stations have usable ones!
Agreed.
Seven million doesn't actually buy you that much of a station
It must buy a lot more than is ultimately necessary or there's been a hell of a lot of inflation in the last year in the grim North. Last year, Beauly station (also in Scotland) opened. It cost 250,000 (about $400,000).
You may be amused to hear that Beauly station doesn't have any lavatories either.
I think the cost for Edinburgh Park includes a large parking facility, full disabled access, a footbridge across the line, as well as additional signalling work to address capacity concerns. There may even be a turnback there and the associated signalling work. A lot of the cost is probably in land acquisition, versus Beauly where all you needed is to buy a strip from a sheep farmer. Beauly is a single-platform, single-track station in dark territory with no parking and minimal signage.
I was surprised to see that the spur to Newcraighall has re-opened.
AEM7
Beauly's got a car park too.
full disabled access,
Doesn't the DDA require that?
a footbridge across the line,
It must be the most expensive footbridge on Earth. (Okay Beauly doesn't have one of those - it's on a single track line).
as well as additional signalling work to address capacity concerns.
I know that's expensive, but the price given is ridiculous.
A lot of the cost is probably in land acquisition
I thought this station was on a business park and the business park themselves had requested it. If anything the business park involved should be paying BR for their station.
Now, be thankful that most of you are male. When you have to wait on line with 20 females before you, some with children, then you about die when you find out there are only 5 stalls working, it really sucks. And you guys just breeze in and out of there, laughing at us as you walk by.
GCT is usual hoppin', especially during rush hour. Not only does it have commuters, but shoppers and food patrons as well. I think I can safely say that many times it's much busier than Penn Station, at least the LIRR part, yet the Penn Station bathrooms probably have twice (or even more) the capacity of GCT.
I'm a firm supporter of that 2:1 female:male bathroom proposal :)
Getting of my disgruntled female soapbox now... :D
If it makes you feel any better, I've seen many establishments that lock the mens' rooms permanently. Some don't bother to clean theirs or put in any of the bare necessities, such as toilet paper or running water. A store manager I approached regarding this very transgression stated that the cleaners are instructed not to do the mens' rooms, because it "makes them too attractive to the wrong element."
Men aren't even supposed to HAVE to go to the bathroom. We're just supposed to deal with it- or go behind a tree.
That is not equal, and sexual discrimination is prohibited by law.
AEM7
Mark
The discussion regarding "pee standing up" has already been posted to this board, and I will not repeat that discussion.
The solution, I believe, is to have co-ed bathrooms that have individual cubicles of higher segregation than currently employed. This is already the case in many cafes where each bathroom has a single lockable door and a single excretion disposal device.
AEM7
I went to the women's bathroom one time. These were not the usual party bathrooms, but rather single person units. I found it absurd that if they were single person units it would matter. I wasn't about to wait for the men's bathroom to become available.
Are you kidding me! We'll NEVER hear the end of the thread; "And they leave the seats up."
Sheesh... What you be thinking, eh?
Elias :^)
But these codes were not even a gleam in the politician's eyes when the subways were built.
Elias
Maybe women's restrooms wouldn't be so crowded if women stopped using them as social centers :)
Sounds more like the women's room to me! haha
I've just learned to put up with it, and take it like a man...:-P
When you were how old, twenty :)
But then you have men's restrooms with the sports pages posted on the wall in front of the urinals, so guys can catch up on yesterday's games while draining the weasel.
Better yet, have you ever gone to ESPN Zone in Times Square? Each urinal has a little TV above it. The stalls also each have a little TV, and the sinks have TV's above them.
TO keep this on topic, ESPN Zone also has subway-like mosaics depicting name tablets depicting NYC location names in the bathrooms and outside the bathroom areas.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
No Marie Curie? No Amelia Earhart? No Hillary?
www.forgotten-ny.com
It is really fun when I attend a nursing convention in a hotel. 1000 female nurses, and 5 male nurses.
Actually, they rent a room, and designate that as the "mens" room, and then re-lable all the others for women.
Elias
Probably cigars, a man's smoke.
Seriously though, I would assume that when they designed Grand Central Station there was probably a very small percentage of women in the workplace and so they were pretty liberal in assigning the same amount of stalls for both sexes.
Building standards now require a larger women's bathroom with more stalls, based on the fact that all the gals need to sit down.
I'm amazed, however, that anyone would enter a bathroom at GCT. Last time I was there was 19 or so years ago, and I haven't been back! When in the area, I'd hit the restroom at the big research library on 6th and 42nd. Very civilized.
The same can be said for the Port Authority Bus Terminal. The bathroom there is just OK. I can imagine it was a horror in the past.
The one on the platforms by Martz Bus are just fine. Every time I've been there an attendant never seemed to be too far a way. Looks like they keep an eye on such things there.
I think America is getting ready for the old European model, of attended bathrooms.
Elias
While I am a strong believer in the dignity of labor, and generally abhor dependence on public assistance, I can say without the slightest hesitation that being on welfare is infinitely preferable to working as a train or bus station restroom attendant.
I found an article about the new bathrooms over at railfan.net.
http://www.railfan.net/lists/rshsdepot-digest/200301/msg00075.html
If you're in Grand Central area and want a classy restroom, go into the Grand Hyatt, right next door to Grand Central. Go up the escalator and follow the signs to the restrooms. A much finer ambience than GCT.
This is by far the best option. If you have extra time to kill before your train leaves, you can lounge around in the lobby area. And you don't even have to walk outside to go between the hotel and GCT since there's an indoor connecting corridor.
Couple thoughts -Whenever I see the GCT Mens Room crowded with a line of anxious commuters waiting, I always hope and pray NO ONE will do what they do at Yankee Stadium after the game is over -use the sinks ;-(
Second, like a lot of guys no way could I use a coed Rest Room at, ummm certain times let's say. Several buddies have agreed they too would fear emerging from a stall after a noisy, aromatic 'event' only to come face to face with some pretty young thing regarding them with a mixture of pity and disgust. Man, the shame!!! Heh heh
I have! Could you imagine? If Debbie in accounting... The horror!!
;-O
Denying the railroad's bid for a preliminary injunction prohibiting the stoppage, Judge James Robertson of the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia rejected Amtrak's assertion that the real reason behind the planned work stoppage--which the railroad calls a "strike"--is "union muscle-flexing" designed to gain a strategic advantage in ongoing negotiations over new collective bargaining agreements. Acknowledging that "it is indeed possible that a measure of the truth lies on both sides," Robertson nonetheless found that Amtrak failed to rebut the unions' argument that their dispute was with Congress and the White House, rather than with the railroad. Therefore, the dispute resolution procedures of the Railway Labor Act were not triggered, the court found, refusing to enjoin the work stoppage.
While Unions Consider Next Move, Amtrak Appeals
According to the unions, which include the Transport Workers Union of America, the Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way Employes, the Service Employees International Union's National Council of Firemen and Oilers, and the Hotel Employees and Restaurant Employees International Union, they will meet the week of Dec. 22 in Washington, D.C.,to considered their next move. Amtrak, meanwhile, is appealing the ruling.
The dispute started in September, when the unions announced at a rally that there would be a work stoppage Oct. 3, 2003, to draw attention to the level of federal funding needed to operate the railroad safely. The unions were prompted by an advisory issued by
Amtrak stating that any subsidy less than $1.8 billion would threaten
continued safe operations of the train system.
Amtrak moved for a temporary restraining order, and the parties agreed that the work stoppage could be postponed to permit the court to consider the issue (191 DLR A-13, 10/2/03). In the meantime, a congressional conference committee in November approved a $1.22 billion subsidy for fiscal year 2004, $600 million less than the "bare
bones" minimum Amtrak said was necessary, the court recounted. In reaching its decision, the court observed that a "one-day work stoppage now, during the holiday season, would be even more devastating than it would have been on October 3, 2003, as originally
planned."
Central Dispute Involves Applicability of RLA
The central dispute in this matter, the court said, is the applicability of the Railway Labor Act. If the RLA applies, an injunction should issue against the work stoppage because such a
stoppage would disrupt operation of the railroad. If it does not apply, the Norris-LaGuardia Act, which severely restricts injunctions in labor disputes, would make the issuance of an injunction "virtually impossible,"the court said.
Under the RLA, it is the duty of carriers and their employees to make every effort to settle disputes so as not to interfere with the operation of the carrier. A central purpose of the law is to prevent strikes by establishing procedures for channeling disputes into a dispute resolution process, the court said.
The unions contended that the RLA did not apply here because the dispute giving rise to the planned work stoppage is not between them and Amtrak, but between the unions and Congress and the president. The purpose of the work stoppage would be to draw attention to safety issues before accidents happen, they said.
Amtrak responded to that argument with a "raised eyebrow," the court observed. The railroad contended that the unions' claim of a political motive was pretextual, and that they instead intend to gain a strategic advantage in collective bargaining agreement negotiations. Amtrak added that the conference committee decision "mooted" the union's stated purpose.
The unions denied that the work stoppage was aimed at the collective bargaining process, although at least one union witness acknowledged frustration with the pace of negotiations and concern that Amtrak would reduce labor costs as a result of the conference committee's decision.
Labor Issues Central, Amtrak Says
Even if the union's political purpose was accepted, the railroad said, the employee-employer relationship was still at the heart of the matter. In support of its argument, Amtrak looked to a 1982
Supreme Court ruling broadly interpreting the term "labor dispute" as it appears in the Norris-LaGuardia Act and the National Labor Relations Act (Jacksonville Bulk Terminals v. International Longshoremen's Ass'n, 457 U.S. 702 (1982)).
Rejecting that argument, the court found that no other court "has said that the RLA's coverage of disputes 'between the carrier and the employees' is as broad as the term 'labor dispute' found in the [Norris-LaGuardia Act] and the NLRA."
In the end, the court said, Amtrak was unable to rebut the unions' showing that the basis of the stoppage was unrelated to any dispute with the carrier. "To be sure, the unions' 'legitimate unrelated basis' case is significantly weaker today than it was at the end of September, when the issue of [fiscal year] 2004 funding was still undecided, but their stated purpose of bringing the attention of Congress and the public to the ongoing plight of Amtrak is still more than plausible, and it has not been shown to be pretextual," the court concluded.
It was LRV 2014 operating westbound under its own power. Sorry no photos but I'll carry the camera the rest of the week and see what I can get.
I hope so. It's tiresome to have to keep calling it the HHLR :)
http://www.njtransit.com/ne_pressrelease.jsp?PRESS_RELEASE_ID=841
Metro today releases its much-awaited plan for revamping the area's mass transit system from a city-oriented bus service to a multimode system complete with light rail, street cars and transfer stations throughout southwest Ohio.
For the first time, the plan includes specifics on a light rail plan for the entire region, beyond the Interstate 71 corridor and into Kentucky and Indiana.
The entire light rail system including lines in Northern Kentucky would be finished by 2031, according to the report. The proposal is projected to cost $2.6 billion in Hamilton County alone.
...
Welcome to Cincinnati Light Rail
The merits and faults of the plan aside, this has to be the coolest website for a transit proposal I've ever seen.
Personally, I'd like to see the airport line become a reality since I often fly through Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky and it'd be nice to ride into town during layovers. I also hope some good planning will be carried out along with the rail planto foster the dense kind of development that makes rail transit viable. Having seen the Cincinnati metro area from the air more times than I can remember I can say that it is mostly low-density sprawl. What's more, there isn't much downtown in the way of residences and stores that one sees with wel-planned downtowns. That would have to accompany the rail system for it to have its greatest impact. Else they'll end up like St. Louis, with a great rail system but nothing downtown to ride to on it.
Mark
Cincinnati actually has a beautiful downtown with an outside chance of surviving if the neanderthals in charge don't keep doing all the wrong things, and they can get housing downtown, and they repeal the anti-gay charter amendment and get young people to stop moving out (THAT made the front page of USA today). But they probably shouldn't push light rail until the Feds are likely to come through. What'll that be --- eight years? Hillary for president? I joked to my friends that Cincinnati looks like Elizabeth, N.J. from the air.
Neat use of Flash, lacking in information. In other words nice code, shame about the content.
--Mark
State, county and local officials in eastern Montgomery County voiced their opposition last week to the Bi-County Transitway, calling instead for state transportation planners to revive the Purple Line.
At a press conference Sept. 16 in Silver Spring, members of the Dist. 20 General Assembly delegation joined Takoma Park's two county councilmen and a city councilman to protest several of the transitway's suggested alignments, including a proposal to construct a bus rapid transit line along the heavily congested Maryland Route 410. The highway is known as Philadelphia and Ethan Allen avenues within the Takoma Park limits.
"It strikes me as bizarre that one of the new alternatives on the table now is the East West Highway option," said Takoma Park City Councilman Bruce Williams (Ward 3). "I think that would result in an unfunded mandate for the City of Takoma Park if that were to happen because we would have to dedicate a good portion of our police force to providing police cars with sirens for getting those buses through the city rapidly. It's the only way they would get through the city rapidly."
...
So at Times Square, the renovations on the Seventh Avenue Line platform seem just about complete (unlike in much of the rest of the station, where they seem just about stalled). However, on the main 42nd Street Mezzanine, just at the bottom of the little 5-step stairway separating the Shuttle area and the 7th Av area, you can see behind the blue construction wall a sign pointing the way to a handicap-accesible exit and access to the 1,2,3,9.
As far as I can tell from having spent far too much of my life on the Times Square platform of the 1,2,3,9, there is nowhere left to put an elevator unless they are planning to do major additional work to the platform, and yet the subway map claims that Times Square is handicap-accessible (though admittedly not specifically that the 1,2,3,9 is accesible) even over 72nd street, whose elevators recently opened as the renovations there wrap up. Does anybody know what's going on with this?
I think the platform elevators are going to be in the middle of the 41st Street mezzanine. Why did they finish both the platform and the mezzanine in the area? I'm as stumped as the next guy.
Oh, wait a second. Maybe the NB elevator is going somewhere in the wide passageway between 41st and 42nd (near the new staircase to the platform) and the SB elevator is going near the new street entrance on the west side of 7th (across from the dual Flushing escalators).
It's possible, though unlikely, that only one elevator will reach the upper mezzanine.
Back in 2001, there was a boarded up work area in the middle of that mezzanine. I assumed elevators were being installed, but one day the boards were gone and there was nothing in their place.
Not ADA-related, but I still think that connecting the two 40th Street mezzanines would seriously reduce (over)crowding at the north end of the NB IRT platform and of the trains themselves.
You might be seeing the beginning of work on the new connection with the Flushing mezzanine. The documents I've seen have all implied that the connection would only be to the SB BMT platform; I'm now optimistic that perhaps they were in error.
Is this not illegal, considering that "The Map" is free? And the shipping - $4 in most cases - is astronomical! For sure, it doesn't cost that much to send a map in the mail... it's not like "The Map" is that lofty.
Depending on the amount of maps the guy sells, he must be making a pretty penny.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The MTA won't do much, if anything, since this is a "small potatoes" issue. It would cost them more to handle legally than the situation is worth. Besides, in spite of that being ebay, not too many people are foolish enough to bid.
It's a shame that eBay spends so much time regulating their buyers, and not enough time regulating their sellers.
Arti
Arti
What about people from out of town? Will the MTA ship there, and if so how many? NYC is trendy right now, and so is the subway.
Arti
Dear MTA people,
Please be sending me copy of your subway map. I would also be liking a guide to all your tracks and switches. These will be useful in my work. Thanks to you so kindly.
SASE is enclosed. You can send these to General Delivery, Peshawar, Pakistan. Thanking you again.
Very truly yours,
O. B. Laden
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(On a sidenote, good luck on finals Amanda!)
-Adam (grad student at SJU Queens)
(enynova5205@aol.com)
But y'know, there is an art to making the perfect snowball, so perhaps that's not too bad ;)
Thank you, and good luck on your finals too! (Do you have them as a grad student, or do you *gasp* have a disseration to write?)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
I, for one, wish MORE people sold their city's transit maps online.
It can be difficult to get them. I don't know if New York mails them out to anyone who asks for one, but if they do, then this guy is SAVING the MTA money in postage. Who cares if people choose to spend less than $5 for a map that is free and easy to get for New Yorkers. I wouldn't think his buyers would be New Yorkers, but people in other cities that either are planning a trip to New York, like New York items, or collect subway maps.
In my opinion, he's doing nothing wrong, and is actually providing a service I wish people in more cities provided.
BTW, why do you are what this guy sells? People will either not buy it, and thus this guy is just giving money to e-bay in terms of listing fees or will buy it and receive something that they value at or less than the closing price.
You value The Map because the supply here in NYC is very plentiful. Someone not in NYC would value it much much more because the supply is so low.
Honest sellers can achieve the same goal by setting a higher minimum bid or reserve.
IMO, eBay should require that minimal shipping (for somebody living nearby who doesn't request priority mail or insurance or any other extras) be included in the bid.
This is impractical as many products would NEVER be shipped using "minimal shipping" whether the buyer wants to or not.
In addition, price of item and shipping cost are not proportional.
How do you figure? By definition, "minimal shipping" is an option to any buyer living in the relevant location. For many if not most products sold on eBay, the typical buyer would choose this option.
In addition, price of item and shipping cost are not proportional.
Who said they were?
Whichever way you look at it, he's selling a free item for his own profit, whether he makes that profit through shipping or a higher minimum bid.
And I don't understand [people]will buy it and receive something that they value at or less than the closing price. They're not receiving it at or less than the closing price... they're paying a lot in unneeded shipping. Insurance my ass.
Quite a bit of stuff sold on eBay computer auctions can be obtained for free in NYC (next to your garbage dumpster :-)
Arti
That's New York.
Arti
Actually, no one has said yet whether MTA provides this service...
If you call the information line, they will end you whatever maps you desire. If you send them a written request they will do the same (they prefer that a SASE be enclosed with enough postage).
The sellers on ebay are taking advantage of the lack of knowledge on the part of some buyers.
If you think the selling of a regular map is bad just wait until the Centennial Map is issued in January.
The first is on the S Franklin Ave Shuttle, but i want to see if i could get through the tunnel where the Malbone St wreck was, all the times i've tried on my own, the prospect park bound train crossed over before the tunnel.
The second is a far-rock/rock-park/lefferts combo. I was wondering if you know when 32s or 38s run there so i can get a good railfan window the whole way out instead of having to peek through a tiny hole in the front thats usually convered with newspaper anyway.
thanks a lot,
-Jeff
No, that tunnel is not in revenue service. I'm told that fan trips have used it in recent times but I haven't personally ridden any of the ones that did.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
--Mark
As for the A, there doesn't seem to be any pattern of when R-32's and R-38's show up. Just wait and hope. The Rock Park shuttle only runs R-44's.
The trick is to wait at Botanic Garden for the train to come in at the appointed time. In the meantime I will get a sampling each night as to the scheduled time the train arrives at PP on the Malbone side. I rode that train on occasion but not lately.
Don't go out of your way, please. If you say it happens, I believe you.
-Jeff
There you go, 10:50 it comes into Malbone tunnel.
The trick is to ASK the M/M if he is going OOS at PP.
Elias
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
That is 1 sweet service she provides to ease your worry.
Were these ever used? What was the access to them and does any trace of that access remain today?
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
A remnant of the uptown local platform is still there at Dyre Avenue.
They used only one (uptown), if memory serves me right. It would probably still be in use, were it not for a hurricane.
Pelham Bay Park on the 6 line.
241st Street/WPR station
Lov-V at Woodlawn
At the terminal, let the people off on the side platforms, then let new passengers on from the center island platform. '
Also by discharging passaengers onto the side platforms, it was easier to close down the train in order to lay it up (you didn't have to worry about people trying to get on).
"They date back to the original construction of course, and I guess [they thought] that ridership would be much higher than it is now."
Trains Dump to 1 side before opening up the other for boarding...
(Disclaimer: Geese DON'T always board from the proper/same side tho.)
I would think GCT and 72nd didn't qualify since they're not "Terminals" terminals. (Tho GCT sometimes *BEGS* to need a side platter).
As Kool-D pointed out, the TERMINALS (alone) tend to have this structure.
Right, and I agree with that, but Aside from Brooklyn Bridge being a terminal, the other stations that got express platforms on the original 1904 subway (14th and 96th) aren't terminals.
(I know the local platforms at 14th, 96th, and BB aren't exactly the same thing as the "local" platforms at the terminals, the real reason for this thread, they are similar ideas).
If (and ONLY if) the train arrives on M track.
[(Disclaimer: Geese DON'T always board from the proper/same side tho.) ]
What they should do is open on the side OPPOSITE of the side that the next train is on. If the train on M track is the next train, open facing platform 2, and then open the platform 1 side after the majority of the pax leave. Leaving, the doors close in the opposite order.
VCP and PBP tend to bear slight resemblance to a running-of-the-bulls
if you stand on the platform at precise times during the rush hours..
If you have Brian Cuday's book Under the Sidewalks of New York, there is an old photo somewhere in there from before the renovation at 137th showing the old 1930's tile encasings.
The quality of the scan is poor because unfortunately, the version of the book I have is printed on regular paper, as opposed to "photo quality" paper. It's a good book though just the same.
Double kudos to Chris for that pic & info.
Restricted clearance? I dunno, 33rd St is not that much more restricted than most stations in the system. Many of the newer designed stations don't even have columns near the tracks. I'm sure if they can, they do avoid that in modern station design.
BTW, if you mean 137th and not 33rd, I'm sure they would not cover the columns with such a large covering now (it was the 80's when they did that), because it does hinder passage between the tracks and the pillars, and people can easily hide behind them, which could be a safety issue. I wonder if they are metal, if the old 1930's tile encased columns are still underneath those monstrosities at 137th St. Anyone remember from when they were renovating the station in the 80's if they removed the tiles or just covered over them? They are large enough that the old columns could still be underneath.
It was done during a renovation, apparently for decorative purposes.
Try punching 1.
Don't FEEL quite much at all like metal to me, brah...
A McDonald's feeding the college crowd directly above fare control.
: >
Is this true?
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
I don't know if they used the left handed sockets in later years because on elevated platforms the bulbs would be stolen.
I know they used reverse threads on the emergency light bulbs in LoVs because since they were off most of the time there was a temptation to steal them.
I did hear that on the early IND cars, only the emergency bulbs were reverse threaded to prevent these cold bulbs from getting stolen. I believe the regular bulbs had regular threads because they would be hot (on) so less likely to be stolen.
I have never heard of this before, are you sure about that? I thought if the voltage rating was a match either AC or DC would light it.
If the RMS AC voltage and DC voltage match, the light works.
600V strings - so the whole lighting system was insulated for 600V, and could potentially be floating at a few hundred volts? Yikes. I'm guessing rather small fuses on here, I'd hate to want to see a short near the higher end of it and no fusing...
The battery bulbs are left-threaded, but not to prevent theft
(they wouldn't work at home since they are rated at 40 V).
Because they look similar to the other two kinds of bulbs,
were they not reverse-threaded, maintenance workers might have
mixed them up. Putting a battery bulb into the string-of-5
circuit would quickly burn out the bulb and leave the string dark.
More insidious would be putting a battery bulb into the main
lighting string of 20. Because the voltage ratings are close,
the bulb would light up. It would be a bit dim, and then when
it burned out, it would not self-short, and the entire string
of 20 would go dark. That's why it was felt necessary to mechanically
prevent mixing up the bulbs.
So what is the R-9 circuit?
Elias
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Regards,
Jimmy
The current ones used for the subway are either 36 or 56 watts and rated at 130 volts. They use a heavy duty filament to compensate for the various voltage fluctuations. Ordinary light bulbs wouldn't last that long. Funny since they are classified as "street railway" light bulbs, when NYC hasn't had any street cars running since 1957.
Bill "Newkirk"
Question of justice divides village
Somali refugee found acclaim, then trouble, in Maine resort
By Brian MacQuarrie, Globe Staff, 12/15/2003
RANGELEY, Maine -- When Abdalahi Shakur Abdi, a teenage Somali refugee, moved to this remote mountain village last year, he quickly became a popular student at the overwhelmingly white high school. His all-state soccer skills rocketed the team to the conference championship, pupils chanted his name in the corridors, and the spectacular views at this lakeside resort made Abdi believe he had found the American dream.
One year later, Abdi's dream became a nightmare of multiple rape charges. But whether Abdi brought the nightmare to Rangeley, or whether he was its naive victim, depends on the source in a case described by its prosecutor as the most bizarre he has ever handled. "You charge him with rape, and it's, `Let's make him mayor,' " said Andrew Robinson, the Franklin County prosecutor. "I'd never heard that."
etc...
GUILTY AS SIN!!!
Those college students would probably raise money for Saddam's defense!!
Another proposal to replace the Bronx D with the Q also went nowhere due to long (1933) association between the Concourse and the D train.
There are other indelible line/route associations that seem to have taken hold over the years, mostly on the IND- thanks to that division assigning letter designations to its routes from inception. BMT letters didn't start until 1960 at which point the names of the lines had been ingrained for up to fifty years.
Although the IRT started carrying route numbers on train bulkheads since 1948, those numbers really didn't enter speech the most part until the seventies. In fact, IRT side sign rolls never even showed the route number until the Great 1979 Route Recoloring, just "7TH AVENUE EXPRESS, LEXINGTON AVENUE LOCAL", or on the Flushing line, "LOCAL", "EXPRESS" or a directional arrow combination. There were some isolated appearance of 1967-era colored route bullets on some IRT bulkheads.
-Since 1933, the B-Q Crosstown as the G. Many oldtimers still call it the GG.
-Since at least 1933, the E train with Queens Boulevard, later Jamaica. Many people resisted the 1988 diversion to Archer because of the E/Hillside association. The F association is just as strong, especially with it being the sole Hillside service. Two years after its diversion to 63rd Street, people still can't separate the F from 53rd Street in their minds.
-Since 1956, Far Rockaway service as the A. The off-peak shuttles to either Far Rock or Rock Park became pretty well-known as the HH, even though the trains themselves were often signed as the C, E or even S.
-Since 1960, the 4th Avenue local, especially to Bay Ridge as the R. Likewise, the Sea Beach as the N. The other end of the N has become fairly strongly identified as the Astoria line.
-Since 1967, the Culver el as the F. It had been the D train since 1954, but locals say that during that time, the Culver name was still heavily used.
-From 1967 to 2001, the West End as the B and the Brighton as the D respectively. These designations caught on the way the T and Q never did, perhaps because they had only been established seven years earlier. It's going to be VERY bizarre to get used to the lines and designations being switched in February.
-Technically since 1973, the Jamaica line as J. There was much confusion in 1967 and '68 with the JJ, QJ and RJ filling the various service roles, so the 'Jamaica el' or Broadway Brooklyn' name stuck around. Many 1/9s and 27/30s never replaced their bulkhead signs, so the QJ designation persisted until for many years- in some cases until those cars' retirements.
Somehow, you don't hear many people refer to the L or M, whose respective lines names still endure.
As for the IRT, only the 7 really has become an enduring icon in lieu of 'The Flushing Line', perhaps due to its international fame as line for immigrants and Met fans. To somewhat less of an extent, the 4 and 6 have become reflexively associated with their respective Bronx elevated lines- which have had as historically strong name recognition as the BMT Southern Division lines.
And you always can pick out a non-New Yorker if they refer to the line connecting Grand Central and Times Square as the S. We Noo Yawkers only have to say 'da shuttle'. The S in Brooklyn is invariably 'da Franklin'.
I'll offer that the north-south Manhattan local trunk routes of the IRT are thought of differently:
On the west side, most people say, "I'll take the one-and-nine."
On the east side, they say, "I'll take the Lex."
Of course on the BMT trunk route, it's the "N-and-R." I wonder if it will be viewed differently after February's Manny-B service change, when the local becomes the "R-and-W"?
It already should be viewed differently! It's the N, Q, R and W. Once one of my former co-workers called it the "N and R" and I immediately corrected him and called it "N, R, Q and W". Maybe some folks are still used to the old local-only service on Broadway and still have a hard time believing there's express service on Broadway. Even the service advisory posters on that alerted passengers that the Q would be running weekends through the Rathole, called it the "N/R". Hello? The N doesn't even run there on weekends.
I'll never call it "the 1 and 9"! To me it will always be the 1.
I believe they also sold a "train controller" for about US$170 up until a year ago that connected to a computer's serial port.
The controller has probably switched to USB by now. Serial ports were quickly becoming obsolete in Japan when I went there.
One train I would like to try is the Keihin Kyuuko Electric Railway's rapid express. 120kph running in an urban area with lots of grade crossings and passing JR trains running at 100kph next to it. I believe there are BVE layouts for that line too.
Looked for BVE routes for that line, found nothing that I could tell, at least in English, but definitely sounds interesting. That's something I haven't had much time for lately either. I hope Mackoy works up a USB controller input for the next BVE - the one that connected to the serial port is still supported for it, though I haven't seen any signs of that in a couple of years now ...
BVE "scene" seems a bit quiet lately. :(
I also realised that BVE supports TS controller(serial) but not "Densha de go"'s USB controllers which work on PS2 only.
I've written to Mackoy to suggest the USB support for the Densha controller and to ask a few questions such as supporting NYCTA style "tripping" on an overrun but alas, have never heard back from him.
I was pleasantly surprised to discover that a USB joystick worked just fine with it, so very likely that's how it was gotten around. Given that he codes in Visual basic, there isn't much leeway to hack his EXE to accomplish the task.
"I'm just takin' a local on the 14th Street Canarsie Line"
"I'm in a Ridgewood state of mind ... "
As a long time Flushing resident, I still have to stop myself from referring to it as the Flushing-IRT, as opposed to the the Flushing-BMT.
(In fact, IRT side sign rolls never even showed the route number until the Great 1979 Route Recoloring, just "7TH AVENUE EXPRESS, LEXINGTON AVENUE LOCAL", or on the Flushing line, "LOCAL", "EXPRESS" or a directional arrow combination. There were some isolated appearance of 1967-era colored route bullets on some IRT bulkheads.)
Which was a big mistake on the part of the TA. They ordered pre-1967 colored signs for the BMT/IND lines, why couldn't they do the same for the IRT lines?
As a former Astoria resident at that time, I can tell you the RR was in fact identified with Astoria by residents. But then the MTA went and swapped the RR/R with the N, so that undid everything.
A quote from the article:
Antonio Goring, a JetBlue customer service representative from Harlem, said a one-seat ride from Manhattan certainly would have been his first choice.
But he wasn't complaining. Goring, 25, has had to take the A train to Howard Beach and then transfer to a crowded shuttle bus. "It's better than nothing and it's appreciated," he said of the new service. "Hopefully, it works out."
My comment: Does Tony know he'll be paying $40 a month more to commute to work now? I think he should have a talk with David of Broadway.
However, while the PFC looks like just another ticket surcharge to passengers, there are some well-defined constraints on how this particular $3/ticket surcharge can be used. The way I understand PFCs, they can only be used for on-airport capital improvements. It would surprise me if the PA were allowed to use PFCs indefinitely for funding ongoing AirTrain operational costs.
Likewise the same with Sutphin on the E
I would doubt it. Just about the only people who would buy the cards are airport or airline employees, who probably have heard through their employers about the procedures for getting them.
David of Broadway then asked: "How did Robert Moses make the Howard Beach leg expensive?" And it was about there I joined the conversation. I explained that it cost more to build a rail line over the Expressway then it would have to build a railway under it.
David
Now I want subway access to JFK as much as anyone, but JFK shouldn't have highway access? What should it be a two lane road to the airport instead of a highway?
Only the portion of the Van Wyck north of the Grand Central was built for the fair. The portion south of the GCP was there for many years earlier.
(assuming the trip GO stays unchanged since last posted)
Sunday MOD Route
See what a little tuna does for the brain!
I sure hope no GO's affect our ride on Track Y3 of the Dyre Ave line.
I even see what a little 5am tuna does for a certain lucky ducky hippo on the D...
lol :P
They have had a booth in the past.
Correction: February 7 & 8.
They gave me a wrong date on a Freeport event last year. I got there to find out it had happened the previous week-end :-(
It was originally scheduled for 1/31-2/1. The show was pushed up a week to avoid competition with the Stooper Bowl.
til next time
Chuck Greene
Koi
Chuck Greene
Could such an arrangement work today?
If going the wrong way were a ticketable offense.
Exactly... prominent signage and visible police presence would work.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
How do they know? They can read. The illiterate people follow the crowds.
If the police are called away, they wouldn't be a visible presence, would they?
I doubt anyone would try to pull off so complicated a plot simply to go down the wrong side of a staircase.
Lots of IND stations and a few others (particularly in Brooklyn, I've noticed) still have little up and down arrows on the stairs and signs that effectively tell people to keep right, a trick they should be (but rarely are) able to master without guidance. These signs are often also ignored, especially when a flood of people get off a train and all want to get up without caring about the relatively few who may want to go down.
I think the only type of stair where you're going to see people all moving in one direction is an escalator.
In those cases, clearly the spare capacity should be used to benefit the majority. People who want to go down will have to wait until the "mob" has cleared. It is not efficient to reserve half the space for a few people
Peak-direction contraflow lanes should be used. On a typical four-aisle staircase (two and two, separated by a handrail) in CBDs, three would be up and one down in the AM, three down and one up in the PM, and two up, two down in the off-peak. The reverse would be true in non-CBD areas.
And its unfair to make a person miss their train because of a "mob". During the day its not a big deal but at night on a 20 min headway, stations like Woodhaven Blvd/Queens Blvd and Main St still suffer from a large crowd at times and some unfortunate souls are forced to wait 15 to 20 minutes depending on what train they missed (IIRC the G arrives 5 minutes after the E or vice versa, leaving waits 15-5).
But the mob are transferring to buses. If the "mob" is delayed and as a result the bus departs, the mob could be waiting for 30 minutes or longer. Therefore even if you take into account of the expected waiting time, the benefit for the mob is much greater than the disbenefits for that one person going downstairs.
AEM7
My experience with rush-hour Lex local.
Arti
The station then should be exit only during rush hours. AEM7
Condition described by D o B appplies to Lex and making those stations (68th 77th) exit-only is impossible.
Arti
Christopher St PATH?
Fairmount Avenue (and probably other stations, too) on SEPTA's Broad Street line is exit-only on Sundays, despite (or, more likely, because) ridership is close to zero.
Also, the subway is partially funded by taxes, so NYCT has an obligation to make it available to taxpayers. I don't think PATH receives tax funding, so the degree of obligation, if it exists at all, is lower.
However, I doubt their attempts will be fruitful without ticketing, as RIPTA42HopeTunnel mentioned. Then again, ticketing could cause even more congestion than there already is at times.
And create a greater dislike of police officers than already exists.
Arti
Actually, isn't PATH like that?
Arti
A number of systems worldwide are like this, which is how they handle large volumes of passengers using comparatively few turnstiles without encountering the NYC scenario of crowds of people being delayed on both sides of an entire bank of turnstiles as the people up front try to figure out who can go through which turnstile at what time.
I seem to remember that in a number of rail stations in Japan (perhaps all of them, but I wasn't paying attention all the time), turnstiles can be automatically set to be bi-directional, entry only, or exit only, on a predefined schedule. There are variable message signs above each turnstile facing both ways so you know well in advance which turnstiles to head for, just like at a vehicular toll plaza.
I guess it didn't occur to the turnstile designers that it might be useful to be able to regulate directional flow via the turnstiles themselves.
I don't think it's done automatically. Think about escalators reversing directions. In any case it works because you have to insert your ticket to exit as well.
In Paris and London, most busy stations have separate entrance and exit and the flow is partitioned or separated as well. Same goes for transfer corridors.
On 8th St. and Bway, the turnstyles used to be entry only and the slam gates were exit only. It worked well during rush hours despite the few folks who hit their bodies really hard to the bar, trying to exit through the turnstyles.
At Bleecker downtown, there are two HEETs and one exit only revolving door(how do you call that thing?). Under this scenario, I think that they should have made the HEETs unexitable and added another exit only door.
Anyway, I'd expect some reports 'bout the Airtrain from you and others, as I won't be able to make it until well after 2pm if I can do so. My Driver's license renewal takes priority, and that's not my primary commitment either for tomorrow.
Well, the staircases leading from the platforms to the mezzanine are EXTREMELY narrow. It's hard enough to fit two people side by side on these steps. And there are only eight of these staircases leading up to the Main Street / Roosevelt Avenue mezzanine and exits (which is pretty much where EVERYONE wants to go). Everybody from the west end of the station and the middle end exit here. On the far east end of the station is a new mezzanine on the same level as the platforms, with long escalators leading directly to street level. But these escalators take you halfway up Roosevelt, so people wanting Roosevelt and Main then have to turn around and walk all the way back. So everybody tries to crowd out the middle exits, and it's a fight between the people rushing up, the people trying to force their way down, which then forces the people going up to form a single file line. It's crazy I tell ya!
Much worse is 50th and Broadway, with only one fare control area at each platform and close to half the ridership of Main Street, and I'd guess a similar rush hour peak.
Arti
Especially at IRT stations with exits at only one end of the platform, additional (full-time, unattended) entrances are long overdue.
I don't know about any new entrances in the planning stage, unfortunately. The entrance at 70th and CPW was recently reopened, but it's at a relatively low-use IND station.
CG
That gives me more than enough time to get there. I have a 9 AM road test that day and I was concerned if I was able to make it there if the first train was rolling before 10:30 AM
Does the recording say the train will be leaving from Howard Beach or Jamaica or both?
She said that the first trains for passengers would be at 2:00. I didn't ask, but assumed that there would be some trains running for the highest and mightiest before then.
Since Jamaica and Howard Beach are on different branches, I'm assuming there will be trains leaving from both stations at around 2:00 (service is scheduled for every 4-8 minutes on each branch).
CG
A) The Govenor, Mayor and anything else in between
or
B) Yout name associated with Smith-9th Street station.
In either case I am neither! LOL
I'm hoping someone with inside info will post where the first train is leaving from and/or the details of the earlier trains for dignitaries. Please???
To everyone who will be there: if you are anti-AirTrain or anti-anything about AirTrain, try not to get caught up in the excitement and then start cheering when the first train comes in.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
I apologize for not responding right away to some of you who contacted me off-line. If you know where you'll be at Jamaica Station at 2PM, I'll try to join you,
I now have access to a computer, obviously, so I'll be checking in at Subtalk...
Brian aka Sir Ronald
Greenberger aka David of Broadway
John V aka Bombadier (no entry yet)
Chris Rivera (no entry yet)
The usual suspects.
Any takers?
My bet, based on past running, is that Chris or Bombadier will be first (and Chris will have some odd-angle arty shots) but Brian will blow us away with the quantity.
The proposal to build a light-rail line from downtown through Natomas to Sacramento International Airport has no realistic chance of securing federal funding, which is vital for such major projects, according to a new analysis by local transportation officials. That could mean years of delay in plans for rail service to the terminal by 2012.
Only one version of the local light-rail proposal meets the new Federal Transit Administration cost-benefit guidelines -- a rail connection from downtown to Natomas Town Center. Passengers could ride a bus from there to the airport, but new buses are not included in that option, so transit officials would have to find another way to pay for that service.
etc... (Four page story)
By David Euchner
In early August the Tucsonans for Sensible Transportation petitioned successfully to put a tax increase and a light rail plan (Propositions 200 and 201) on our citys November ballot.
Anticipating this since last year, I decided to research how light rail works, how much it costs, and whether it could succeed in Tucson. I was disturbed to find how much of a miserable failure light rail has been in every other city which has tried it.
When voters receive the election booklets from the City Clerk, they will read only one opposing argument to Proposition 201, which was submitted by the Pima County Libertarian Party. Unfortunately the booklet does not provide enough space to properly critique the light rail plan.
The proponents of light rail, TST, have focused on the most worthless statistics, such as 48% of light rail riders in Denver had never used transit before. For some reason TST also considers it so important that you can apply makeup and talk on the cell phone on these trolleys that it makes it well worth a half billion dollars! One can only wonder if this bait-and-switch is intentional.
The voters will be deciding whether to commit Tucson to spending half a billion dollars on 13 miles of light rail. If TST will not give us the facts, then we all share the responsibility to find the facts for ourselves. My research has yielded the following substantial information:
Light rail construction on average costs 41% more than the original projection. This means that TSTs figure of $455 million for construction will be inflated to over $640 million.
TST focuses on the capacity of light rail to carry thousands of passengers. But the issue is use, not capacity, and on average each light rail trolley carries dozens of people, not thousands.
In Portland, Oregon, the poster-city for light rail and urban planning fans, the goal was to bring auto trips from 92% of all total trips in the city to 88%. They didnt succeed for the same reasons light rail failed in all other cities, but even if they succeeded then car traffic would not have been substantially reduced.
People do not ride light rail because it is extremely inconvenient. Unless you live next to one of the stops, you would have to take a bus to the trolley.
Light rail trolleys move at 21 mph; in most cities, light rail trips take 100% longer than travelling the same distance by bus or automobile.
The 60% federal dollars that TST is promising will not materialize. Presently Phoenix is unable to get the federal money for their light rail plan that was voted on three years ago, and many other cities throughout the country are biting the bullet.
The per-ride cost of light rail is obscene; according to United States Department of Transportation statistics, in 1990 the average cost of a one-way trip on recently built light rail systems was $9.44. Of course, this cost is not passed on to the riders, which means the taxpayers are footing the bill.
The claim that light rail carries more passengers than a freeway is pure fabrication. According to US DOT statistics, freeways carry six times more passengers per lane mile than light rail does per route mile.
According to Federal Transit Administration data, only New York City has rail ridership over 5% of passenger miles traveled. In most cities, including TST favorites Denver, Salt Lake City, St. Louis and Dallas, less than 0.5% of total passenger miles is via rail.
As a job-creating measure, light rail is a terrible hindrance to the local economy. The jobs are not filled by locals, and they are quite pricy. On average, each job created by light rail costs taxpayers over $414,000, while each job created by expanded bus service costs $65,000.
Beyond the statistics, there are several other problems with this light rail plan.
Extensive road widening will be needed to build light rail in several sections of Sixth Street and Broadway. This means endless construction and the seizure of private property through eminent domain. Gene Caywood of TST has grudgingly admitted to me in public debate that eminent domain is a necessary evil to complete his plan.
Because light rail gets right-of-way in traffic, automobiles waiting for the trolley to pass cause increasing, not decreasing, street level pollution.
Light rail does not lead to increased private development in the corridor. In Portland, the city had to provide millions of dollars in subsidies for businesses to open there.
Beyond that, Portland had the gall to brag that light rail led to the construction of a downtown parking garage! If light rail is such a success, then why is there such need for a parking garage at the end of the line?
Light rail is a 19th century solution for a 21st century problem. All the evidence and sound analysis leads to the conclusion that light rail is a very expensive exercise in futility.
I encourage readers to visit www.pimalp.org to find more complete information and a bibliography of my research. I admit TSTs website is prettier than ours, but we chose to emphasize substance over style. The facts are on our side. Lets learn from Phoenixs mistake and vote NO on Propositions 200 and 201.
David Euchner is a Tucson attorney and Chairman of the Pima County Libertarian Party.
But how would you define "anarchic jungle law ideology"? I'm all in favor of "anarchic jungle law ideology" if we forbade persons who believe in that from partaking in modern day civilization -- for example, if this Euchner bloke wishes to support a return to no government interference, we'll make it so that he can't drive on Federal or state highways (a Federal governmental facilitiy). There is no need to ban it -- it is only necessary to serve them their own medicine.
AEM7
The issues raised by Euchner are serious enough that they shouldn't simply dismissed because people don't agree with his political ideology.
CG
No.
"The users of the highway to pay the costs through access fees." -- that's an economist, not a libertarian. And I am one.
"A Libertarian wouldn't be against a highway" -- Right, not necessarily. But a Libertatian should be against a public highway. However a Libertarian has no right to object to a highway constructed and funded by non-Libertarians, as long as non-Libertarians pay for it. So if we divided this world into Libertarians and non-Libertarians, and ban Libertarians from highways and transit that the rest of us choose to share, then there would be no problems. The Libertarian would have what they wanted, and we would have what we want (non-Libertarian publicly funded highways and transits).
Most of what Euchner said was classic anti-transit rhetoric, and I don't know why you think they are serious issues.
AEM7
But you not taking into account the cost of collecting the fares. Gas taxes are a near perfect substitute for highway access fees because non-highway use of gasoline is so low. Gas taxes are much easier to collect than having toll booths everywhere, but all those anti-tax wackos don't realize that they are the most efficient solution which results in more money heading into infrastructure instead of overhead.
In either case -- tolls or taxes -- the wackos will argue that the solution is to develop a corporation which receives 100% of the revenue and then has responsibility for footing the bill for 100% of the cost of the highway. Tolls end up being more efficient, because the handling of administrative and collection costs and allocation issues (by state, or highway vs. local roadway) are cleaner.
CG
Mike, you need to be introduced to the concept of CONGESTION PRICING. Look it up on the web. Google the keyword. I have a Harvard presentation you might like to read, if you get interested.
AEM7
Personally, I would make the Holland/Lincoln/GW/etc tunnels and bridges $30 inbound between 6-10am weekdays, to strongly discourage people bringing automobiles into NYC.
I think there are better and cheaper ways to shift traffic off of roads and onto transit. NYC has had good success with their morning HOV policy and tight control of parking.
If you can give me a scheeme that is not costly to implement, is not able to track people's movements and still provides people the option of a longer trip time vurses payment I probably wouldn't oppose it. But still, remember in this country many cities with bad congestion don't have a viable transit option to force people onto.
It's not what I think that matters, it's what the good people of Tuscon (who don't have much access to effective transit) think.
CG
My late father-in-law, who had degrees in mining, metallurgical, and chemical engineering, had a favorite bumper sticker. It read:
"Ban Strip Mining. Let the bastards freeze in the dark!
You know what he drives today?
A bike, or a bus. That says alot.
This is an incredibly important point. Even though I disagree with their big-picture opposition to rail transit, it is very true that for rail transit to be effective, land use patterns must be employed which allow for large numbers of people to live close to the rail stations. Zoning must call for denser development so this will be possible. It must also allow for mixed land use so that people can walk to stores and services close to their homes (and stations) so that living without a car can be a viable option. Without this, rail systems won't dramatically impact life in their cities.
Mark
But then after a couple of operators' strikes, and tax revolts on line extensions, and starving the bus companies to keep the light rail going, and crowded rail cars (just because there is demand doesn't mean there is supply, if it is a net cost -- viz. the Lexington Ave. Subway), and, voila, light rail isn't so hot anymore, and everybody hates public transit of all kinds. Then we're really going to be in a fix, when really good forms of rail transit are proposed for these small sparse cities, and light rail has caused everyone to develop a prejudice.
(Unless you live next to one of the stops, you would have to take a bus to the trolley.)
I agree with that. A city like Tucson is just not built for light rail. That's why I think BRT is a good idea. Instead of tracks, you built a grade separated busway into downtown, complete with stations. Instead of taking a bus to the trolley, you take a bus to the BRT line which continues on that line to Downtown, the airport, your stadium, etc. All the buses could merge into the BRT line.
Then you allow dense land use to grow up around the stations. THEN you quickly and easily convert to rail to increase capacity.
New York's rail transit was the product of a similar evolution, beginning with horsecars. You need a link between sprawl and subways. BRT could be it.
I welcome you to visit the Hudson Bergen Light rail. I get on at the 22nd street station and by the second stop, there are NO SEATS and it's standing room only. By the time you reach Liberty State Park, the Light Rail is packed like the #4 Lexington Avenue Express during rush hour. Seriously. This isn't just once in a while but EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK!
If it were so inconvenient, this would not be the case.
Mark
Doesn't this also apply to "heavy ' rail and subways?
I agree with that. A city like Tucson is just not built for light rail. That's why I think BRT is a good idea. Instead of tracks, you built a grade separated busway into downtown, complete with stations. Instead of taking a bus to the trolley, you take a bus to the BRT line which continues on that line to Downtown, the airport, your stadium, etc. All the buses could merge into the BRT line.
Then you allow dense land use to grow up around the stations. THEN you quickly and easily convert to rail to increase capacity.
New York's rail transit was the product of a similar evolution, beginning with horsecars. You need a link between sprawl and subways. BRT could be it.
However the world's leading example of BRT is Curitiba, Brazil, a city that was planned (since 1965) to run along densely developed transit corridors. Most American cities do not have that advantage, which would help any form of mass transit.
I've heard that the BRT in Ottawa works very well.
We're reaping the fruit of our sixty-year commitment to the dogma that cars and sprawling suburbs are the way to go. We've built a world that is hard to recast in a transit-friendly mode.
Mark
Once you start with buses, you tend to stay with the bus forever. Why? You have to hire equiptment to service and mechanics to fix the buses. Then 20 years later, you have to do all that all over again.
Where's the money for the transition to rail ever going to come?
Answer: Never.
That might not be a bad thing. Once there is critical demand, the money will be found for a rail system. If there is no critical demand (i.e the buses never get to the point of overcrowding), then clearly bus is the right mode for that city.
AEM7
Both trains and buses go hand-in-hand and each has their own role.
Now transplants dig this propaganda right up usually. Arizonia, like FL is about 70% transplants. But after living in this ultimate nightmare, i will NEVER live in another city wihtout an alternative again, unless it's a small town, or no town at all. Why? Let me pick apart the agruement using nothing else but some knowledge and mostly common sense!
*Anticipating this since last year, I decided to research how light rail works, how much it costs, and whether it could succeed in Tucson. I was disturbed to find how much of a miserable failure light rail has been in every other city which has tried it.*
-shame he never elaborated, or told us what his failure metrics where. baseless arguement
*The proponents of light rail, TST, have focused on the most worthless statistics, such as 48% of light rail riders in Denver had never used transit before. For some reason TST also considers it so important that you can apply makeup and talk on the cell phone on these trolleys that it makes it well worth a half billion dollars!*
-that half billion is to actually get to work. He never mentions how many billions went to the highway they longer will use ever again.
*Light rail construction on average costs 41% more than the original projection. This means that TSTs figure of $455 million for construction will be inflated to over $640 million.*
-whoopdee doo. He's comparing another state with other systems of goverment. I read otherwise. Also, roughly translated, "I always spend more money on beer than I want to when I go out. Maybe I just shouldn't go out anymore"
*TST focuses on the capacity of light rail to carry thousands of passengers. But the issue is use, not capacity, and on average each light rail trolley carries dozens of people, not thousands.*
Rush hour and busy holiday's/tourist periods carry the bulk. By the same token, the highways that you pay billions to expand, are usually dead after midnight-5am in most towns. I guess they were a waste also. I guess we forgot it's all designed for peak capacity, like water/sewage, electric grid, and the internet.
*In Portland, Oregon, the poster-city for light rail and urban planning fans, the goal was to bring auto trips from 92% of all total trips in the city to 88%. They didnt succeed for the same reasons light rail failed in all other cities, but even if they succeeded then car traffic would not have been substantially reduced.*
-Now, i hear that Portland actually grew. Road traffic stayed exactly where it was(it road traffic grew replacing the ppl who went to LRT), while LRT usage went up. Total travel grew. Without the LRT, the traffic growth, mixed with the LRT people now driving would've been a fatal meltdown to their infrastructure. This means no more growth. Oops Mr. Developer, i guess you shouldn't have campaigned against it, no ones buying your houses.
*People do not ride light rail because it is extremely inconvenient. Unless you live next to one of the stops, you would have to take a bus to the trolley*
-No one lives next to work anymore, nor do they live next to the newstand and coffee shop. Put a station on the freeway onramp. I'm driving there anyway. But this time instead of getting on the highway to stop and go for 45 minutes, i can park, and sit on a smooth vehicle for 20. No wear and tear, gas expense, or parking expense. Where did this I HAVE to drive 100% of my trip and not a portion philosphy even come from? It's a hollow arguement.
****Light rail trolleys move at 21 mph; in most cities, light rail trips take 100% longer than travelling the same distance by bus or automobile. ****
---This is my all time favorite arguement. Where this is guy averaging 21mph at in his car? I haven't been able to do that except in the middle of the night or in the country. I'm doing some research for my own site and this is what i got so far as a teaser. State Road 50, Orlando's main E-W road. 16mph that thing moves at during the day, off peak, and that was on the best day i've ever seen it. What does a stop and go freeway do? less.
*# The 60% federal dollars that TST is promising will not materialize. Presently Phoenix is unable to get the federal money for their light rail plan that was voted on three years ago, and many other cities throughout the country are biting the bullet.*
-I like the wording here. He's stating this all like it's fact. Here's how it works:
You need to have the funds ready, the matching funds, in order for the feds to look at your case and grant you money. Like orlando's $400 million. Without that money, the feds will not chip in the other billion to build them a system. You need to put out the money first, and it's a very small fraction compared with other city projects.
*The per-ride cost of light rail is obscene; according to United States Department of Transportation statistics, in 1990 the average cost of a one-way trip on recently built light rail systems was $9.44. Of course, this cost is not passed on to the riders, which means the taxpayers are footing the bill.*
-Who's footing my bill everytime I get out on that road? It's not free, and I don't see a userfee based on miles mailed to may mailbox everymonth.
*The claim that light rail carries more passengers than a freeway is pure fabrication. According to US DOT statistics, freeways carry six times more passengers per lane mile than light rail does per route mile.*
-Is he legally allowed to make that up? A highway lane can carry at max 2,000 cars an hour. Take a six lane road, 6k cars. one person a vehicle always. A train carries what, like 140 people a car? 2-3 linked together. 5 min headways at rush hour, one direction? (140*3)(12 trains(1 every 5 min for 60 min))= 5040 people. Heavyrail is much higher. How can a rational person even assume a highway lane can carry more people than a train can. If that was the case WE WOULDN'T HAVE TRAFFIC CONGESTION!!!!
*# According to Federal Transit Administration data, only New York City has rail ridership over 5% of passenger miles traveled. In most cities, including TST favorites Denver, Salt Lake City, St. Louis and Dallas, less than 0.5% of total passenger miles is via rail.*
-I wish he explained his point or background on this. What's the total passenger miles per road St. Louis has?
*As a job-creating measure, light rail is a terrible hindrance to the local economy. The jobs are not filled by locals, and they are quite pricy. On average, each job created by light rail costs taxpayers over $414,000, while each job created by expanded bus service costs $65,000.*
-I guess he's never been to Tampa. He'll probably never come here. This doesn't hold true for his glorified trolley at all. But who in a city that's never seen rail cars in 60 years is going to have someone critical of this mans "stories"?
*Because light rail gets right-of-way in traffic, automobiles waiting for the trolley to pass cause increasing, not decreasing, street level pollution.*
Can't cause more traffic then there is now. Why is it whent eh light turns green no one goes? Becasue there's still cars in front of them in the box.
*Light rail does not lead to increased private development in the corridor. In Portland, the city had to provide millions of dollars in subsidies for businesses to open there.*
-Along with every downtown since the beginning of time. Also see previous article listed. Sprawl doesn't build itself. I'd rather pay a million for innercity development than billions for some crap way out there ruining my country views.
*Beyond that, Portland had the gall to brag that light rail led to the construction of a downtown parking garage! If light rail is such a success, then why is there such need for a parking garage at the end of the line?*
-EASY. We dont' live in 1887 anymore. I think that's all I'm going to say, if you didn't read my previous comments. This is all commons sense.
*Light rail is a 19th century solution for a 21st century problem. All the evidence and sound analysis leads to the conclusion that light rail is a very expensive exercise in futility.*
-So's teh combustion engine. Actually i'm four years off, the modern car was invented in 1904. But that's not 21st century. I see a whiner who's not giving me a 21st century solution. Putting flamable liquid in a car is very arachic when you think about it sometimes.
I didn't realize Phoenix made a mistake, and this guys site isn't any good either.
Thank you for you're time, I'm flattered you made it to here. :) Gimme a correction or comment.
IINM, nominal capacity of a freeway lane in perfect conditions is 2,200 vph.
The numbers I've seen date to 1996, but at that time, the southbound E and F trains carried over 40,000 people into Manhattan between 8 and 9am, at only 26 tph (the line can support at least 30), with many R-46's (which have slightly lower passenger capacities than R-32's).
You may find this page of interest.
I try to stay away from New York figures for light rail, because then you get all the sterotyped arguements. You gotta walk there. That's only for big cities. Or it's not comfortable, etc.. So I try to do mock calculations based on experience with SEPTA regional rail, and other facts I've picked up on. Remember the tourist. Some people from other cities never rode on a bus or train before, so from TV or vacation/business trips, NYC is their only image of how these things work, when there's other ways.
I do try to keep a list of sites like that no matter the city, but my bookmarks get messed up from time to time, until I come up with a system I guess.
Fair response. I drag out those numbers when somebody claims that there's no way a subway track could possibly carry more than a few highway lanes. The topic of evacuations was the perfect opportunity to cite them. (Notice that the response I got completely missed the point.)
That links a classic example though, argueing numbers like NYCTA doesn't have any ridership or anything. HAHA
Between a shortage of time and a loss of interest in engaging in discussion with a few people who lack the capacity to discuss, I stopped posting there a few months ago.
Even while I was still posting there regularly, there was one poster who I vowed never to engage in discussion, because he invariably twisted my words. That's not honest debate, and he knows it. Once I stopped responding to his posts, he noticed and stopped baiting me.
Shame there's hundreds more just like him, and they always use the same quotes, and on this type of propaganda, i almost feel obligated to respond.
It's a good thing ther's a federal guy who's got a site somewhere, I think his name was Micheal or Peter Wyland. Pretty much does what I did, since it's always the same arguement.
Paul Weyrich, the Dean of Pro-Rail right wingers. www.trolleycars.org
The HBLR carries dozens of people. Guess what? At the end of the week it amounts to over 20 thoousand passengers.
This is a inaccurate. The HBLR reaches speeds of 50 MPH. If planned properly, a light rail will be much faster than a bus and almost equal a car.
The HBLR route from Hoboken to 22nd street in Bayonne will take close to 27 minutes. If you were to take the NJ Transit bus line from Bayonne to Hoboken, you're talking about 60 to 90 minutes depending on the traffic and how quckly you can make the transfer as you would need to take TWO BUSES!
A car starting from 22nd street in Bayonne will reach Hoboken in about 18 - 23 minutes.
A distance of 8 miles -- or 18 mph.
CG
You would think that 18 mph would be horrible but try doing the same using NJ Transit. The wait alone for the #81 would take about 20 minutes during non rush hour. You would get to the Jersey City depot in about 17 minutes. Then you would have to transfer at Gates Avenue for the #87 which comes one every half hour during non rush hour.
The New Jersey Transit #87 is a slow bus that would arrive in Hoboken within 35 minutes.
Which one would you take?
This is a little amount. We've subsidized the BIG -DIG to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars for what amounts to 13 miles of bad road. Closer to home, we've subsidized the George Washington Bridge to an amount greater than the initial costs!
This man is really stupid. Seriously. He stupid to the point of being dangerous. I begining to think eveything he stated was lies because quite frankly, if he can't understand the purpose of PARK AND RIDE, then he really is ignorant.
The Park and Ride is a FUNCTION OF THE LIGHT RAIL! Without the HBLR, there would be no need to create those parking spaces at Liberty park and all over. WE CANNOT CONTINUE TO BRING CARS DOWNTOWN! THERE IS NO MORE SPACE.
This seems to be a big one too. Big arguement in Orange County, FL and i'm sure everywhere, "what's the point if I have to drive to it, it doesn't come to my door." Like the freeway comes to your door. Well you're driving to the "parking lot" anyway, what's the problem with driving a small percentage of it. I drive to the local park-n-ride for the express bus for daytrips sometimes. I drove 5-10 minutes(30min during rush) and rode for 40ish minutes(1:15 rush last week). I did my part, and am very happy with it.
I like to see where he gets these figures. The city of Bayonne and Jersey City are NOT paying $414,000 thousand dollar jobs. The average worker on the HBLR makes 25 - 40k a year. Not a lot of money. Furthermore the system easily pays these salaries.
He then compares it to the salary and benefits of adding one bus operator.
It isn't a fair comparison -- but it should be considered that bus is likely cheaper than light rail even when the comparison is fair. Just not by that much (or anything close to it).
CG
According to Bayonne Times, all homes within a four block radious of the HBLR has seen their property values increase by 20 percent in the last 3 years.
If you travel all along downtown Jersey City, there is MASSIVE development going all along the the lightrail route. BILLIONS of dollars have been and will be invested all along that route and in 20 years, it will look like downtown Manhattan. Skyskrapers are going up and luxury million dollars condos are everywhere.
While I don't agree with Wyland, there ARE highway user fees in the form of the gas tax. A state gas tax does cover nearly all of the maintenance of a highway network and the federal tax covers good chunk of new construction costs, at least in most states. Since the amount of gas you use is dependent on your mileage, the gas tax is essentially a mileage-based user fee.
Even though the gas tax around here is, I think, 40-50 cents a gallon, they say it's not enough. Even a local tolling authority's bulletin board, the authority always cites this too, along with newspapers. I think the deficit nationally on highway maintance funds is something like 8 billion, but I can't remember. And I don't htink that figure has any bearing if your a donor state or not.
If state X has a lower gas tax rate than state Y, many people will buy gas in X and drive in Y. That robs Y of funding it should be getting to maintain its roads, which in turn leads to a higher gas tax, which pushes even more people to buy their gas in X, and so on.
If some roads are more expensive to build or maintain than others (based either on the design of the road or the location), people will tend to buy gas where the roads are cheaper. Same effect as above.
Many roads (e.g., city streets in most areas) aren't funded by the gas tax at all. A taxpayer in the area who doesn't make extensive use of those roads is paying more than his fair share, while non-taxpayers who pass through get a free ride.
The space on roads in urban and suburban areas is more valuable at some times of the day than at others. Gas taxes can't charge a variable rate based on the value of that space; tolls can.
While that's true to an extent, it's not too much to worry about. For example, historically gas is cheaper in New Jersey than New York. However, if I live in let's say Queens, It would be useless for me to drive to New Jersey when I need gas just to save $.25 a gallon (random number). Any savings would be lost by the extra milage (and gas used) to get there and back , and the tolls. It's even true if you don't need to use tolls. Generally gas is cheaper in Nassau/Suffolk than it is in the city. Again, if I live in Brooklyn, I'm not going to drive an extra 30 miles to save $.15 gallon as again, the savings is eaten up driving to the further away gas station.
The only people that works for to a small extent is if let's say you live in Queens and work in New Jersey, you may try to buy most of your gas in New Jersey whenever you are there. However, that gas is used on the commute, so you will have to buy gas in Queens also, as the gas you bought in New Jersey will be partially used up on the ride home. You won't be able to do heavy driving with your "cheap gas", because you have to either fill up in Queens before driving back to New Jersey the next day, or will have to not drive anywhere in Queens so you'll have enough gas to get back to New Jersey.
Trust me, people who live in Queens and work in NJ NEVER buy gas in Queens. It doesn't take a full tank of gas to make a round trip, so you can always buy in NJ.
AlM is correct. Commuters between New Jersey and Queens buy essentially all of their (commuting) gas in New Jersey. Long-distance travelers who are aware of the typical price differentials also aim to fill up in New Jersey.
Notice, BTW, that a large fraction of New Jersey's major highway mileage is tolled. Is it a coincidence that the gas tax is low? Of course not.
Shame is, at low density, ther is a valid debate whether you can even pay the operating costs to make a high-level service on a trunk bus route, let alone capital on light rail. In a private car the operating costs are "paid" by self-operation; dial-up massive van pooling would be the ideal answer in theory. You can't solve much of anything at four units an acre. But, then, that density attracts Jeremiah Johnson wannabes like this.
So he thinks buses average 42mph?
Not my experience. I used to ride a bus in Birmingham, UK, which was scheduled off-peak to take 23 minutes to run 4 miles - an average speed of about 10mph. The bus company never published a rush hour schedule (as it runs 20bph peak, 15 off-peak), but my experience was that it took anything from half an hour to an hour - that's 4 to 8 mph.
Not my experience. I used to ride a bus in Birmingham, UK, which was scheduled off-peak to take 23 minutes to run 4 miles - an average speed of about 10mph. The bus company never published a rush hour schedule (as it runs 20bph peak, 15 off-peak), but my experience was that it took anything from half an hour to an hour - that's 4 to 8 mph.<<<<<
Good one James.. I also want to add that cities have a 25 to 30 mph speed limit for cars. The average time to drive 5 miles in city street in NJ was 15 minutes. A 10 mile journey will take close to half an hour which is just slightly faster than the light rail.
go figure
I dont' know about AZ, but the southern states, most urban through-streets are between 35-50mph limits. Not to often are they 35 except in some absurb cases. And sometimes when that sign says 50+, you ain't doing 15. It's only way out there int he country do you reach ludicris speeds.
But am I glad you guys pointed out that bus thing!!!
But how would you define "anarchic jungle law ideology"? I'm all in favor of "anarchic jungle law ideology" if we forbade persons who believe in that from partaking in modern day civilization -- for example, if this Euchner bloke wishes to support a return to no government interference, we'll make it so that he can't drive on Federal or state highways (a Federal governmental facilitiy). There is no need to ban it -- it is only necessary to serve them their own medicine.
AEM7
The issues raised by Euchner are serious enough that they shouldn't simply dismissed because people don't agree with his political ideology.
CG
No.
"The users of the highway to pay the costs through access fees." -- that's an economist, not a libertarian. And I am one.
"A Libertarian wouldn't be against a highway" -- Right, not necessarily. But a Libertatian should be against a public highway. However a Libertarian has no right to object to a highway constructed and funded by non-Libertarians, as long as non-Libertarians pay for it. So if we divided this world into Libertarians and non-Libertarians, and ban Libertarians from highways and transit that the rest of us choose to share, then there would be no problems. The Libertarian would have what they wanted, and we would have what we want (non-Libertarian publicly funded highways and transits).
Most of what Euchner said was classic anti-transit rhetoric, and I don't know why you think they are serious issues.
AEM7
But you not taking into account the cost of collecting the fares. Gas taxes are a near perfect substitute for highway access fees because non-highway use of gasoline is so low. Gas taxes are much easier to collect than having toll booths everywhere, but all those anti-tax wackos don't realize that they are the most efficient solution which results in more money heading into infrastructure instead of overhead.
In either case -- tolls or taxes -- the wackos will argue that the solution is to develop a corporation which receives 100% of the revenue and then has responsibility for footing the bill for 100% of the cost of the highway. Tolls end up being more efficient, because the handling of administrative and collection costs and allocation issues (by state, or highway vs. local roadway) are cleaner.
CG
Mike, you need to be introduced to the concept of CONGESTION PRICING. Look it up on the web. Google the keyword. I have a Harvard presentation you might like to read, if you get interested.
AEM7
Personally, I would make the Holland/Lincoln/GW/etc tunnels and bridges $30 inbound between 6-10am weekdays, to strongly discourage people bringing automobiles into NYC.
I think there are better and cheaper ways to shift traffic off of roads and onto transit. NYC has had good success with their morning HOV policy and tight control of parking.
If you can give me a scheeme that is not costly to implement, is not able to track people's movements and still provides people the option of a longer trip time vurses payment I probably wouldn't oppose it. But still, remember in this country many cities with bad congestion don't have a viable transit option to force people onto.
It's not what I think that matters, it's what the good people of Tuscon (who don't have much access to effective transit) think.
CG
My late father-in-law, who had degrees in mining, metallurgical, and chemical engineering, had a favorite bumper sticker. It read:
"Ban Strip Mining. Let the bastards freeze in the dark!
You know what he drives today?
A bike, or a bus. That says alot.
Baltic
Mediteranean
Oriental
Vermont
Connecticutt
Saint Charles
States
Virginia
Saint James
Tennessee
New York
Kentucky
Indiana
Illinois
Atlantic
Ventnor
Marvin Gardens
Pacific
North Carolina
Pennsylvania
Park Place
Board Walk
Now I need you to give me 4 other transportation companies that aren't railroads to replace the Reading, B and O, Short Line, and Pennsy railroads.
THanks
Chuck
Oriental BOSTON & ALBANY
Vermont MICHIGAN & LAKE SHORE
Connecticutt NEW YORK & ALBANY
Saint Charles CHICAGO, BURLINGTON & QUINCY
States NORTHERN PACIFIC
Virginia GREAT NORTHERN
Saint James UNION PACIFIC
Tennessee WESTERN PACIFIC
New York CHICAGO & NORTH WESTERN
Kentucky NORFOLK & WESTERN
Indiana VIRGINIAN
Illinois SOUTHERN PACIFIC
Atlantic LOUISVILLE & NASHVILLE
Ventnor SEABOARD COAST LINE
Marvin Gardens MISSOURI PACIFIC
Pacific BALTIMORE & OHIO
North Carolina CHESAPEAKE & OHIO
Pennsylvania MILWAUKEE ROAD
Park Place NEW YORK, NEW HAVEN & HARTFORD
Board Walk PROVIDENCE & WORCESTER
Non-Railroad Transportation Firms
AMERICAN AIRLINES
UNITED AIRLINES
OVERNITE EXPRESS
ROADWAY EXPRESS
This is an incredibly important point. Even though I disagree with their big-picture opposition to rail transit, it is very true that for rail transit to be effective, land use patterns must be employed which allow for large numbers of people to live close to the rail stations. Zoning must call for denser development so this will be possible. It must also allow for mixed land use so that people can walk to stores and services close to their homes (and stations) so that living without a car can be a viable option. Without this, rail systems won't dramatically impact life in their cities.
Mark
But then after a couple of operators' strikes, and tax revolts on line extensions, and starving the bus companies to keep the light rail going, and crowded rail cars (just because there is demand doesn't mean there is supply, if it is a net cost -- viz. the Lexington Ave. Subway), and, voila, light rail isn't so hot anymore, and everybody hates public transit of all kinds. Then we're really going to be in a fix, when really good forms of rail transit are proposed for these small sparse cities, and light rail has caused everyone to develop a prejudice.
(Unless you live next to one of the stops, you would have to take a bus to the trolley.)
I agree with that. A city like Tucson is just not built for light rail. That's why I think BRT is a good idea. Instead of tracks, you built a grade separated busway into downtown, complete with stations. Instead of taking a bus to the trolley, you take a bus to the BRT line which continues on that line to Downtown, the airport, your stadium, etc. All the buses could merge into the BRT line.
Then you allow dense land use to grow up around the stations. THEN you quickly and easily convert to rail to increase capacity.
New York's rail transit was the product of a similar evolution, beginning with horsecars. You need a link between sprawl and subways. BRT could be it.
I welcome you to visit the Hudson Bergen Light rail. I get on at the 22nd street station and by the second stop, there are NO SEATS and it's standing room only. By the time you reach Liberty State Park, the Light Rail is packed like the #4 Lexington Avenue Express during rush hour. Seriously. This isn't just once in a while but EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK!
If it were so inconvenient, this would not be the case.
Mark
Doesn't this also apply to "heavy ' rail and subways?
I agree with that. A city like Tucson is just not built for light rail. That's why I think BRT is a good idea. Instead of tracks, you built a grade separated busway into downtown, complete with stations. Instead of taking a bus to the trolley, you take a bus to the BRT line which continues on that line to Downtown, the airport, your stadium, etc. All the buses could merge into the BRT line.
Then you allow dense land use to grow up around the stations. THEN you quickly and easily convert to rail to increase capacity.
New York's rail transit was the product of a similar evolution, beginning with horsecars. You need a link between sprawl and subways. BRT could be it.
However the world's leading example of BRT is Curitiba, Brazil, a city that was planned (since 1965) to run along densely developed transit corridors. Most American cities do not have that advantage, which would help any form of mass transit.
I've heard that the BRT in Ottawa works very well.
We're reaping the fruit of our sixty-year commitment to the dogma that cars and sprawling suburbs are the way to go. We've built a world that is hard to recast in a transit-friendly mode.
Mark
Once you start with buses, you tend to stay with the bus forever. Why? You have to hire equiptment to service and mechanics to fix the buses. Then 20 years later, you have to do all that all over again.
Where's the money for the transition to rail ever going to come?
Answer: Never.
That might not be a bad thing. Once there is critical demand, the money will be found for a rail system. If there is no critical demand (i.e the buses never get to the point of overcrowding), then clearly bus is the right mode for that city.
AEM7
Both trains and buses go hand-in-hand and each has their own role.
Now transplants dig this propaganda right up usually. Arizonia, like FL is about 70% transplants. But after living in this ultimate nightmare, i will NEVER live in another city wihtout an alternative again, unless it's a small town, or no town at all. Why? Let me pick apart the agruement using nothing else but some knowledge and mostly common sense!
*Anticipating this since last year, I decided to research how light rail works, how much it costs, and whether it could succeed in Tucson. I was disturbed to find how much of a miserable failure light rail has been in every other city which has tried it.*
-shame he never elaborated, or told us what his failure metrics where. baseless arguement
*The proponents of light rail, TST, have focused on the most worthless statistics, such as 48% of light rail riders in Denver had never used transit before. For some reason TST also considers it so important that you can apply makeup and talk on the cell phone on these trolleys that it makes it well worth a half billion dollars!*
-that half billion is to actually get to work. He never mentions how many billions went to the highway they longer will use ever again.
*Light rail construction on average costs 41% more than the original projection. This means that TSTs figure of $455 million for construction will be inflated to over $640 million.*
-whoopdee doo. He's comparing another state with other systems of goverment. I read otherwise. Also, roughly translated, "I always spend more money on beer than I want to when I go out. Maybe I just shouldn't go out anymore"
*TST focuses on the capacity of light rail to carry thousands of passengers. But the issue is use, not capacity, and on average each light rail trolley carries dozens of people, not thousands.*
Rush hour and busy holiday's/tourist periods carry the bulk. By the same token, the highways that you pay billions to expand, are usually dead after midnight-5am in most towns. I guess they were a waste also. I guess we forgot it's all designed for peak capacity, like water/sewage, electric grid, and the internet.
*In Portland, Oregon, the poster-city for light rail and urban planning fans, the goal was to bring auto trips from 92% of all total trips in the city to 88%. They didnt succeed for the same reasons light rail failed in all other cities, but even if they succeeded then car traffic would not have been substantially reduced.*
-Now, i hear that Portland actually grew. Road traffic stayed exactly where it was(it road traffic grew replacing the ppl who went to LRT), while LRT usage went up. Total travel grew. Without the LRT, the traffic growth, mixed with the LRT people now driving would've been a fatal meltdown to their infrastructure. This means no more growth. Oops Mr. Developer, i guess you shouldn't have campaigned against it, no ones buying your houses.
*People do not ride light rail because it is extremely inconvenient. Unless you live next to one of the stops, you would have to take a bus to the trolley*
-No one lives next to work anymore, nor do they live next to the newstand and coffee shop. Put a station on the freeway onramp. I'm driving there anyway. But this time instead of getting on the highway to stop and go for 45 minutes, i can park, and sit on a smooth vehicle for 20. No wear and tear, gas expense, or parking expense. Where did this I HAVE to drive 100% of my trip and not a portion philosphy even come from? It's a hollow arguement.
****Light rail trolleys move at 21 mph; in most cities, light rail trips take 100% longer than travelling the same distance by bus or automobile. ****
---This is my all time favorite arguement. Where this is guy averaging 21mph at in his car? I haven't been able to do that except in the middle of the night or in the country. I'm doing some research for my own site and this is what i got so far as a teaser. State Road 50, Orlando's main E-W road. 16mph that thing moves at during the day, off peak, and that was on the best day i've ever seen it. What does a stop and go freeway do? less.
*# The 60% federal dollars that TST is promising will not materialize. Presently Phoenix is unable to get the federal money for their light rail plan that was voted on three years ago, and many other cities throughout the country are biting the bullet.*
-I like the wording here. He's stating this all like it's fact. Here's how it works:
You need to have the funds ready, the matching funds, in order for the feds to look at your case and grant you money. Like orlando's $400 million. Without that money, the feds will not chip in the other billion to build them a system. You need to put out the money first, and it's a very small fraction compared with other city projects.
*The per-ride cost of light rail is obscene; according to United States Department of Transportation statistics, in 1990 the average cost of a one-way trip on recently built light rail systems was $9.44. Of course, this cost is not passed on to the riders, which means the taxpayers are footing the bill.*
-Who's footing my bill everytime I get out on that road? It's not free, and I don't see a userfee based on miles mailed to may mailbox everymonth.
*The claim that light rail carries more passengers than a freeway is pure fabrication. According to US DOT statistics, freeways carry six times more passengers per lane mile than light rail does per route mile.*
-Is he legally allowed to make that up? A highway lane can carry at max 2,000 cars an hour. Take a six lane road, 6k cars. one person a vehicle always. A train carries what, like 140 people a car? 2-3 linked together. 5 min headways at rush hour, one direction? (140*3)(12 trains(1 every 5 min for 60 min))= 5040 people. Heavyrail is much higher. How can a rational person even assume a highway lane can carry more people than a train can. If that was the case WE WOULDN'T HAVE TRAFFIC CONGESTION!!!!
*# According to Federal Transit Administration data, only New York City has rail ridership over 5% of passenger miles traveled. In most cities, including TST favorites Denver, Salt Lake City, St. Louis and Dallas, less than 0.5% of total passenger miles is via rail.*
-I wish he explained his point or background on this. What's the total passenger miles per road St. Louis has?
*As a job-creating measure, light rail is a terrible hindrance to the local economy. The jobs are not filled by locals, and they are quite pricy. On average, each job created by light rail costs taxpayers over $414,000, while each job created by expanded bus service costs $65,000.*
-I guess he's never been to Tampa. He'll probably never come here. This doesn't hold true for his glorified trolley at all. But who in a city that's never seen rail cars in 60 years is going to have someone critical of this mans "stories"?
*Because light rail gets right-of-way in traffic, automobiles waiting for the trolley to pass cause increasing, not decreasing, street level pollution.*
Can't cause more traffic then there is now. Why is it whent eh light turns green no one goes? Becasue there's still cars in front of them in the box.
*Light rail does not lead to increased private development in the corridor. In Portland, the city had to provide millions of dollars in subsidies for businesses to open there.*
-Along with every downtown since the beginning of time. Also see previous article listed. Sprawl doesn't build itself. I'd rather pay a million for innercity development than billions for some crap way out there ruining my country views.
*Beyond that, Portland had the gall to brag that light rail led to the construction of a downtown parking garage! If light rail is such a success, then why is there such need for a parking garage at the end of the line?*
-EASY. We dont' live in 1887 anymore. I think that's all I'm going to say, if you didn't read my previous comments. This is all commons sense.
*Light rail is a 19th century solution for a 21st century problem. All the evidence and sound analysis leads to the conclusion that light rail is a very expensive exercise in futility.*
-So's teh combustion engine. Actually i'm four years off, the modern car was invented in 1904. But that's not 21st century. I see a whiner who's not giving me a 21st century solution. Putting flamable liquid in a car is very arachic when you think about it sometimes.
I didn't realize Phoenix made a mistake, and this guys site isn't any good either.
Thank you for you're time, I'm flattered you made it to here. :) Gimme a correction or comment.
IINM, nominal capacity of a freeway lane in perfect conditions is 2,200 vph.
The numbers I've seen date to 1996, but at that time, the southbound E and F trains carried over 40,000 people into Manhattan between 8 and 9am, at only 26 tph (the line can support at least 30), with many R-46's (which have slightly lower passenger capacities than R-32's).
You may find this page of interest.
I try to stay away from New York figures for light rail, because then you get all the sterotyped arguements. You gotta walk there. That's only for big cities. Or it's not comfortable, etc.. So I try to do mock calculations based on experience with SEPTA regional rail, and other facts I've picked up on. Remember the tourist. Some people from other cities never rode on a bus or train before, so from TV or vacation/business trips, NYC is their only image of how these things work, when there's other ways.
I do try to keep a list of sites like that no matter the city, but my bookmarks get messed up from time to time, until I come up with a system I guess.
Fair response. I drag out those numbers when somebody claims that there's no way a subway track could possibly carry more than a few highway lanes. The topic of evacuations was the perfect opportunity to cite them. (Notice that the response I got completely missed the point.)
That links a classic example though, argueing numbers like NYCTA doesn't have any ridership or anything. HAHA
Between a shortage of time and a loss of interest in engaging in discussion with a few people who lack the capacity to discuss, I stopped posting there a few months ago.
Even while I was still posting there regularly, there was one poster who I vowed never to engage in discussion, because he invariably twisted my words. That's not honest debate, and he knows it. Once I stopped responding to his posts, he noticed and stopped baiting me.
Shame there's hundreds more just like him, and they always use the same quotes, and on this type of propaganda, i almost feel obligated to respond.
It's a good thing ther's a federal guy who's got a site somewhere, I think his name was Micheal or Peter Wyland. Pretty much does what I did, since it's always the same arguement.
Paul Weyrich, the Dean of Pro-Rail right wingers. www.trolleycars.org
The HBLR carries dozens of people. Guess what? At the end of the week it amounts to over 20 thoousand passengers.
This is a inaccurate. The HBLR reaches speeds of 50 MPH. If planned properly, a light rail will be much faster than a bus and almost equal a car.
The HBLR route from Hoboken to 22nd street in Bayonne will take close to 27 minutes. If you were to take the NJ Transit bus line from Bayonne to Hoboken, you're talking about 60 to 90 minutes depending on the traffic and how quckly you can make the transfer as you would need to take TWO BUSES!
A car starting from 22nd street in Bayonne will reach Hoboken in about 18 - 23 minutes.
A distance of 8 miles -- or 18 mph.
CG
You would think that 18 mph would be horrible but try doing the same using NJ Transit. The wait alone for the #81 would take about 20 minutes during non rush hour. You would get to the Jersey City depot in about 17 minutes. Then you would have to transfer at Gates Avenue for the #87 which comes one every half hour during non rush hour.
The New Jersey Transit #87 is a slow bus that would arrive in Hoboken within 35 minutes.
Which one would you take?
This is a little amount. We've subsidized the BIG -DIG to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars for what amounts to 13 miles of bad road. Closer to home, we've subsidized the George Washington Bridge to an amount greater than the initial costs!
This man is really stupid. Seriously. He stupid to the point of being dangerous. I begining to think eveything he stated was lies because quite frankly, if he can't understand the purpose of PARK AND RIDE, then he really is ignorant.
The Park and Ride is a FUNCTION OF THE LIGHT RAIL! Without the HBLR, there would be no need to create those parking spaces at Liberty park and all over. WE CANNOT CONTINUE TO BRING CARS DOWNTOWN! THERE IS NO MORE SPACE.
This seems to be a big one too. Big arguement in Orange County, FL and i'm sure everywhere, "what's the point if I have to drive to it, it doesn't come to my door." Like the freeway comes to your door. Well you're driving to the "parking lot" anyway, what's the problem with driving a small percentage of it. I drive to the local park-n-ride for the express bus for daytrips sometimes. I drove 5-10 minutes(30min during rush) and rode for 40ish minutes(1:15 rush last week). I did my part, and am very happy with it.
I like to see where he gets these figures. The city of Bayonne and Jersey City are NOT paying $414,000 thousand dollar jobs. The average worker on the HBLR makes 25 - 40k a year. Not a lot of money. Furthermore the system easily pays these salaries.
He then compares it to the salary and benefits of adding one bus operator.
It isn't a fair comparison -- but it should be considered that bus is likely cheaper than light rail even when the comparison is fair. Just not by that much (or anything close to it).
CG
According to Bayonne Times, all homes within a four block radious of the HBLR has seen their property values increase by 20 percent in the last 3 years.
If you travel all along downtown Jersey City, there is MASSIVE development going all along the the lightrail route. BILLIONS of dollars have been and will be invested all along that route and in 20 years, it will look like downtown Manhattan. Skyskrapers are going up and luxury million dollars condos are everywhere.
While I don't agree with Wyland, there ARE highway user fees in the form of the gas tax. A state gas tax does cover nearly all of the maintenance of a highway network and the federal tax covers good chunk of new construction costs, at least in most states. Since the amount of gas you use is dependent on your mileage, the gas tax is essentially a mileage-based user fee.
Even though the gas tax around here is, I think, 40-50 cents a gallon, they say it's not enough. Even a local tolling authority's bulletin board, the authority always cites this too, along with newspapers. I think the deficit nationally on highway maintance funds is something like 8 billion, but I can't remember. And I don't htink that figure has any bearing if your a donor state or not.
If state X has a lower gas tax rate than state Y, many people will buy gas in X and drive in Y. That robs Y of funding it should be getting to maintain its roads, which in turn leads to a higher gas tax, which pushes even more people to buy their gas in X, and so on.
If some roads are more expensive to build or maintain than others (based either on the design of the road or the location), people will tend to buy gas where the roads are cheaper. Same effect as above.
Many roads (e.g., city streets in most areas) aren't funded by the gas tax at all. A taxpayer in the area who doesn't make extensive use of those roads is paying more than his fair share, while non-taxpayers who pass through get a free ride.
The space on roads in urban and suburban areas is more valuable at some times of the day than at others. Gas taxes can't charge a variable rate based on the value of that space; tolls can.
While that's true to an extent, it's not too much to worry about. For example, historically gas is cheaper in New Jersey than New York. However, if I live in let's say Queens, It would be useless for me to drive to New Jersey when I need gas just to save $.25 a gallon (random number). Any savings would be lost by the extra milage (and gas used) to get there and back , and the tolls. It's even true if you don't need to use tolls. Generally gas is cheaper in Nassau/Suffolk than it is in the city. Again, if I live in Brooklyn, I'm not going to drive an extra 30 miles to save $.15 gallon as again, the savings is eaten up driving to the further away gas station.
The only people that works for to a small extent is if let's say you live in Queens and work in New Jersey, you may try to buy most of your gas in New Jersey whenever you are there. However, that gas is used on the commute, so you will have to buy gas in Queens also, as the gas you bought in New Jersey will be partially used up on the ride home. You won't be able to do heavy driving with your "cheap gas", because you have to either fill up in Queens before driving back to New Jersey the next day, or will have to not drive anywhere in Queens so you'll have enough gas to get back to New Jersey.
Trust me, people who live in Queens and work in NJ NEVER buy gas in Queens. It doesn't take a full tank of gas to make a round trip, so you can always buy in NJ.
AlM is correct. Commuters between New Jersey and Queens buy essentially all of their (commuting) gas in New Jersey. Long-distance travelers who are aware of the typical price differentials also aim to fill up in New Jersey.
Notice, BTW, that a large fraction of New Jersey's major highway mileage is tolled. Is it a coincidence that the gas tax is low? Of course not.
Shame is, at low density, ther is a valid debate whether you can even pay the operating costs to make a high-level service on a trunk bus route, let alone capital on light rail. In a private car the operating costs are "paid" by self-operation; dial-up massive van pooling would be the ideal answer in theory. You can't solve much of anything at four units an acre. But, then, that density attracts Jeremiah Johnson wannabes like this.
So he thinks buses average 42mph?
Not my experience. I used to ride a bus in Birmingham, UK, which was scheduled off-peak to take 23 minutes to run 4 miles - an average speed of about 10mph. The bus company never published a rush hour schedule (as it runs 20bph peak, 15 off-peak), but my experience was that it took anything from half an hour to an hour - that's 4 to 8 mph.
Not my experience. I used to ride a bus in Birmingham, UK, which was scheduled off-peak to take 23 minutes to run 4 miles - an average speed of about 10mph. The bus company never published a rush hour schedule (as it runs 20bph peak, 15 off-peak), but my experience was that it took anything from half an hour to an hour - that's 4 to 8 mph.<<<<<
Good one James.. I also want to add that cities have a 25 to 30 mph speed limit for cars. The average time to drive 5 miles in city street in NJ was 15 minutes. A 10 mile journey will take close to half an hour which is just slightly faster than the light rail.
go figure
I dont' know about AZ, but the southern states, most urban through-streets are between 35-50mph limits. Not to often are they 35 except in some absurb cases. And sometimes when that sign says 50+, you ain't doing 15. It's only way out there int he country do you reach ludicris speeds.
But am I glad you guys pointed out that bus thing!!!
What are you going to do? dig them up and move them? That's the absurdest thing I have ever heard of.
: )- Elias
Arti
Bit more work in 1:1 scale, eh?
Elias
Yes.
Benedictine monks, unlike friars or other religious orders take vows of stability. One joins a particular monastery for life. In our monastery, we closed our high school and college back in the early '70s, and so we have a few spare rooms for hobbies and things.
This particular room used to be Fr. Raphael's typing classroom. (You *do* remember typewriters, don't you.~ Old Remmington upright manuals)
We heard some stories from alumni about *that* class!
Elias
Seriously, you have mentioned several times that the high school and college closed, but never mentioned why? Lack of funds; lack of students?
I do remember typewriters: I had a manual portable growing up, and used it to type Gestetner masters (remember those?), having to clean the wax out of the typebars every couple of pages or so, otherwise the counters of as and es would fill in.
It was a luxury when I got to college and had the use of a Selectric with changeable golfballs and carbon film ribbons no less! I had to relearn to type, as I would hit the keys too hard and some of them would autorepeat when I didnt want it!
Or does the T/O just have to spot the train correctly?
+--+
|10|
+--+
| 8|
+--+
75-foot trains always stop at the next larger-numbered marker. 6-car 75-foot trains stop at the 8 marker; 4-car 75-foot trains stop at the 6 (or OPTO, if applicable) marker.
At some stations (especially on the Queens Blvd. and Crosstown lines, there are stop markers that have 10 and 6 together. This is so that the conductors of G trains (475', stopping at 6) are properly lined up with the board/monitors at such stations (C/R's are in the 4th car).
http://abpr2.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?november03/11-01-03/2802_Drogheda_26-10-2003.jpg
David
Koi
http://photo.starblvd.net/paul3025/4-3-1.jpg
P.S.: I hope you didn't take that the wrong way--thinking I was acting like a "smartypants".
Neither of them would have been able to look out through a regular window on an R68.
1) proff
2) brah
Mark
Isn't that some sort of foundation garment or something?
:^)
Mark
About 15 years ago I read an interview with a KC gangsta rap group that claimed THEY originated the slang word 'dis', (meaning 'disrespecting' someone), only it was all a misunderstanding. They said in their rap song the phrase was actually 'def you' meaning 'death you' but a lot of their fans, for some odd reason, heard it as 'dis you' and assumed it was short for 'disrespect you'. Next thing they knew they were hearing the word everywhere ("dis you", "you dissed me", etc) which they thought was very funny. They said that in their song they had been talking about killing someone, not hurting their feeling. Big difference!
1.The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as sarcastic.
2.
a.The validation of a satirical proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions.
b.A statement or argument used in such a validation.
brah (br)
n. Slang pl.
1.A brother.
2.Friend; pal. Used as a form of familiar address for a man or boy: So long, brah.
3.Abbreviation for brother.
Jamaica to Howard Beach - easy - go downstairs from Jamaica LIRR to Sutphin Blvd/Archer Ave subway station, J train to Broadway Jcn/Eastern Parkway, transfer to Broadway Jcn/East New York, A train to Howard Beach. Price $2, or $1.67 with a $10 MetroCard.
DRAFT -- Subtalk FAQ version 0.1
by AEM7 #902
Q: Are post count aggregate statistics available for Subtalk?
A: Subtalker American Pig provides a post-count service.
Q: Can I change my Subtalk handle?
A: E-mail the webmaster with your old and desired Subtalk handle, and if the webmaster approves the change, you should get an email within a few hours.
Q: What is an Arnine?
A: Arnine is a generic term used to describe NYCTA cars built between 19xx and 19yy. These early cars were constructed under the contract numbers R-1 to R-9, but as they are difficult to distinguish visually, they are simply referred to as "Arnine". In practice, NYCTA did not make the distinction between these cars, unlike later builds.
Q: What is a Redbird?
A: Redbird is the NYCTA subway cars built for World's Fair, recently reefed.
Q: Is heavy-rail, commuter rail, light rail on topic?
A: Yes.
Q: Will the webmaster remove harrassing and/or irrelevant posts?
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A: You have to put the picture on your own web server. Subtalk does not provide space for posting pictures. You can get webspace from free servers such as geocities, dreamweb. Once you have posted the picture onto your own web server, use the following HTML to link to it: $lt;img src="http://your.server.com/~user/image.jpg"<
Q: Can I post ads on Subtalk?
A: Yes, for personal transit-related items, as long as it is not excessive. A good way to post an ad is to post the item in the subject line and link to an ebay auction.
Q: Where can I find more information about New York City Transit Planning?
A: You might try to search the archives (insert link here). You should also consult MTA's website, www.mta.info, which has many capital plan documents available.
Q: Can I post "insider information" to Subtalk?
A: Subtalk is a public forum. You can generally post insider information to Subtalk, but you take the sole risk for publicizing such information. You may wish to protect the identity of your "insider" contact by not posting their name or department.
Q: Can I find out who such-and-such poster is?
A: Yes, usually. Some poster make their email public through their posts, and you can write them and they may respond. The webmaster cannot generally provide information on the real name of posters.
Q: Has anyone ever been banned from Subtalk?
A: Yes, E_DOG, for trolling the board with racist remarks. This also led to a Subtalk hiatus while David repaired his servers due to a hardware failure.
Q: Can you get virus from Subtalk?
A: No. But if you did, you should try contacting Subtalker SelkirkTMO, who specializes in making anti-virus software.
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A: No. If you visit a site that has an on-exit popup (such a porn site) before Subtalk, an ad window may pop up after you enter the Subtalk URL. Such an ad comes from the last site you visited, not Subtalk.
Q: Who pays for Subtalk?
A: Through donations, the Subtalk community pays for it. Click on Amazon Honor System to donate.
Q: What is 'brah'? What is 'proff'?
A:
proff (prf) n.
1.The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as sarcastic.
2.
a.The validation of a satirical proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions.
b.A statement or argument used in such a validation.
brah (br) n. Slang pl.
1.A brother.
2.Friend; pal. Used as a form of familiar address for a man or boy: So long, brah.
3.Abbreviation for brother.
Q: Can I complain about transit service on Subtalk?
A: Yes, in general, but it is unlikely to be well received. A more appropriate forum is the Straphangers Campaign Message Board (link). If you can provide constructive suggestions, or have a technical question about why the service failed on a particular day, Subtalk would be a good information source. If you have a complaint that you want to bring to the attention of the MTA, you should use the MTA website's customer service center (link).
Q: Can I discuss transit systems outside New York?
A: Yes. Boston, Washington, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Atlanta, and London regularly make appearances on Subtalk, and to a lesser extent Chicago, Los Angeles, and San Francisco. Another discussion board exists for the Chicago el: Message Board at Chicago-L.org. Subtalk has a number of posters resident in various cities around the U.S. and around the world.
Boston, MAAEM7, MBTA Vet, Nick, Todd Glickman, stevie, High St/Brooklyn, etc
Philadelphia, PAWDobner, David Cole, etc, etc.
Baltimore, MDJersey Mike, Dan Lawrence, etc, etc
Washington, DCWMATAGOAUGH, Mountain Maryland, etc, etc
London, GBBritish James, DStock7080, Max Roberts, David Fairthorne, etc, etc.
Tokyo, JPWado, etc, etc.
Q: Are there anymore questions?
A: No.
Q: Good. Now it's the time for a quiz.
AEM7
Thanks for the "arnine" stuff ... while I'm no RCI, Train Dude got his "paddle of edumication" on the arnines, therefore, he's OK in my book. Anyone who knows how to raise the magic longitudinal seat and turn the red handle correctly, as well as open the panel and flip the lock tab is OK in my book. :)
Not many on the railroad these days got a TRUE "trial by fire" ... Dude's proven to me that he's done it. Arnine style on the high seas - arrr-arrr they never ran on. (grin)
One correction re: Q: Has anyone ever been banned from Subtalk?
A: Yes, E_DOG, for trolling the board with racist remarks. This also led to a Subtalk hiatus while David repaired his servers due to a hardware failure.
Not totally correct.
The hiatus was directly due to the flamage caused by E_DOG. It was a "cooling off period" and Harry Beck's board was used to take up the slack.
I only say this because you KNOW E_Dog ... please pass along to him if you will that SOME of us "got it" ... :)
These include but are not limited to:
Why is there overhead catenary over part of PATH in NJ.
Why can't the LIRR use the Subwayy lines if it wanted.
Wasn't part of the Second Ave Subway Built?
When is (such and such) opening?
Wasn't there some sort of Grade crossing on an NYC Subway line?
Why can't they hook the PATH into the IRT?
etc etc.
Q. What is a 'hippo?'
A. An R68 or 68A subway car, built in 1986 and currently assigned to the B, D, N, Q, W and Franklin Shuttle lines. It's so nicknamed because of its inherent slowness on stretches of track that can support greater speeds by older equipment. Other alleged reasons is that, in the opinion of some people, the end of an R68 car resembles the face of said animal. Additionally, the loud, whining noise often eminating from the R68 in motion evokes image of said animal.
It is so nicknamed because of its PERCEIVED slowness. Ironically, the hippopotamus is a very fast animal, showing the ignorance of the term's author and many of its proponents.
Your other points make sense, but does a hippo really make that noise?
Chorus of Mud, Mud, Glorious Mud
A group of rebuilt R-30s were painted red as well, so they deserve honorable mention.
Also, several R-17s were painted red for cosmetic reasons at the same time the aforementioned cars were undergoing GOH. Since these R-17s were not part of the GOH program, IMHO they do not count as being true Redbirds. That said, if anyone wants to call Shoreline's 6688 a Redbird, I won't argue. Everyone has the right to have their own opinion.
I still think that your You Are An Idiot! is the best find. Did you have a look at the error messages on other pages on that site?
A: No, with the exception of the Pelham bay park bound 6 local announcemnts, the announcements identifying the train on each line are unique to that line and have a different person for each one.
I do visit Japan every year (grandparents want to see their grandson).
I visit Paris, France about every other year (godfather wants to see his godson).
I frequently visit transit related web sites of both countries (among others) to keep myself updated.
R-32/R-38 end signs: flip-dot
R-44/46/142/142A side signs: Liquid Crystal Display
R-142/142A/143 end signs and interior signs, R-143 side signs: Light Emmitting Diode arrays.
Metrocard Vending Machine screens: Cathode Ray Tube
Metrocard Express Machine screens: Liquid Crystal Display
Turstile, farebox, balance reader screens: Liquid Crystal Display
No wait, that's someone who's afraid of pantographs.
Mark
No, that's an artophobe. A pannophobe is someone who's afraid of a made-up Greek word.
(Perhaps he meant pantophobe - someone who's afraid of everything.)
So it's pantophobe and not panophobe? OK. Jersey Mike's list of words are all ones that I made up.
And some minor Attic orator probably did too. It's a good Greek word.
So it's pantophobe and not panophobe?
Yep - the stem of pas, pasa, pan is pant-.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On SubTalk? I did, in reference to City Council members.
Arti
Little known google feature. When you search for a word, and it's underlined, click for the definition.
**********************************************************************
Whew! That didn't last long.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#Indiana
**********************************************************************
Can anybody comment if these nominees are a goof faith effort to improve Amtrak or a more typical Republican plan to torpedo Amtrak?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#For
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
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Hmmmmm, there're not bias or anything as the chief equipment suppliers. Hmm, if Bombardier's financial sense is as good as the equipment they produce.....
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#Fluor-Bombardier
I think we all forget(in this area), the incredible amounts of european tourists that come back,and complain and get confused at our road system, the incredible amts of domestic people in rental cars that are "out of their element". ANd commuters. The amts of traffic at any time makes that route anything but rural.
I can come up with so many marketing ideas and tie-ins, i can't even question it at this point.
Sounds like BBD is really trying desperate tactics in order to sell their JetTrain doonboggle. Besides, Florida is turning the whole thing into a boondoggle anyhow, what with a separated rail system whose top speed is supposed to be a mere 125 mph according to some reports…(in which case, all you need are Surfliners hauled by 125-mph “New Genesis” locomotives with GEVO prime-movers…)
Anyway, since the system has 0 dunding, it's not going to be built, and right now, I doubt the procurement process (or anything else about it) would stand up in court.
Latest word is the line (if it's ever built), will be double track and 'prepared for electric operation' (huh?), but 'initially' operated with gas turbine equipment. Which makes no sense, but neither does anythig else in the proposal.
makes perfect sense. FLHSR Authority wants fast trains that are double tracked. Why they are double-tracked in Phase one Segment II is beyond me. How many trains are they expecting to run in 40mile segments?
Bombardier has the jet-train, single tracked because in cheapo area's, this is the cheapest starter set you can buy. They want to make the proposal as cheap and cost effecitve as possible. If you try to sell them gold-plated tracks, people will bulk at the price. Plus the difference between diesel and electric in segment one is a mere four minutes. In Segment II to Miami, the difference is hours. Remember, that car gunning it at every red light isn't getting any further than you are, the same physics apply.
Now when the system is up and running between orlando and tampa, and is proving itself, it will get electrified so the trains can run down to Miami at 200mph, speeds no car can do without flipping over the median(which would've been nice for the 3 that did that on the turnpike in the last 2 weeks).
The game is to minimize capital expedidures before the line even runs. Plus, you aren't getting any time savings going 120mph and 180mph on a 67-something mile segment of track or road or airspace.
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#Southeast
Two ridiculous proposals outlined in there (read: impossibilities)…first one getting the federal government to kick out $6 billion towards the infrastructure (what makes these people think that Congress will do that when they continually give a mere $1 billion on average to the existing national railroad, Amtrak), and the second one is having private operators run the line on their own dime, with no government subsidies, not to mention them using their own rolling stock and having to pay for their own FRA inspections to boot—this is total absurdity. Was it John Mica that sold them on the private operator with no subsidies idea?
If the HSR system and existing airport system can be integrated, you'd have huge customer base plus the financial resources of both modes and costs can be combined. There's no reason for air and rail to compete when you can code-share.
That's exactly what I've been wanting for years...a flight into Hartsfield and a transfer to a let's say, "DeltaRail" train to take me the rest of the way.
Mark
How would we avoid the problems on a lot of Amtrak routes that happens when passenger trains get stuck behind freight trains? Would simply four-tracking the lines do the trick so tha tthere could be two for passenger and two for freight? I don't know much about the actual operation of intercity freight or passenger rail, so pardon the seeming naivete of my question.
Mark
Congestion is a major issue at many of nation's hub airports. This is well documented in the literature. Problems occur at IAH, EWR, ORD, BOS, amongst others. And you can't really build your way out of the problem, since building airport is like building highways -- you can keep building and the peak demand will keep growing, and without some kind of pricing that aims to recover the cost of airports from the operators, the operator will keep scheduling in such a way that creates huge peak demands. In general it is not a very efficient use of resources.
For rail, the some regional government authority would own all of the rail stations, track and yards and they would simply charge a service provider slots for usage rights. Long-term leases can be negotiated for yards and repair facilities.
There are many wheel-rail interface issues that could cause problems (safety and otherwise) if the track owner is not also the train operator, especially if the track owner is public and therefore have an unlimited supply of money. For example, if a wheel skids on rail, a wheelflat is created. In cold weather, such wheel flat can accelerate the rate of rail breakages. If the track is publicly owned, there is no incentive for the private operator to take the damaged wheel out of service, resulting in higher maintenance costs for the track owner but lower operating costs for the operator.
And something else I just thought of, why should this new system be restricted to passengers? Freight railroads would gladly pay the slot fees in order to move their freight at high speeds. Downtown Atlanta alone sees 150 freight trains a day, that's a huge amount of freight that can be charged to use the new system. NS and CSX want that number to grow, so they would definitely support a system like this.
Freight travels most efficiently at low speeds. For example, in the Mississippi River Market, much coal, grain and chemicals (i.e. bulk commodities) move by ship rather than by rail. Power River Basin coal rarely travel at more than about 30mph. If you double the speed at which freight travels, you more than quadriple the energy requirements. For fast freight to work, the freight has to be valuable enough for the logistics cost saving to balance the additional energy, maintenance, and other expenditure associated with higher operating speeds. The likely markets for freights travelling at more than about 70mph is perhaps some of the intermodal market -- in competition with airfreight or overnight team drivers. The basic problem with competing against trucking is the ubiquity of the trucking network. One high-speed lane here and there against the thousands of highways out there isn't going to attract that much traffic, because transloading in itself is a cost and of the order of magnitude comparable to the logistics cost savings associated with higher speed for most general merchandize commodities.
That might help with the funding, too. In the old days, passenger rail was subsidized privately by the profits from the railroads' freight operations. (The passenger operations usually weren't profitable, but the feds made them offer passenger service until Amtrak was organized.) If the lines could haul freight, too, that could be a source of income to subsidize the passenger service.
In the old days, railroads were allowed to gouge captive shippers by looking at their balance sheets and figuring out exactly how to take all the surplus while keeping them in business. This resulted in the Interstate Commerce Act and created the first economic regulation authority. Today, freight railroads are finding it more and more difficult to compete with continued taxpayer capital investment in infrastructure (i.e. expressway widening) and freight no longer command the margins that were available when railroad was the only practical form of freight carriage.
Since the ROW owner controls the slots for trains, they would be like Air Traffic Control, they wouldn't favor one company's train over another. They'd have the entire network on computer screens and can schedule and route trains so that delays are minimal.
This is a non-trivial optimization problem and analysis has continually shown that delays are inevitable in a congested system (and optimization methods only serve to minimize, not eliminate them). Optimization system can also result in very uneven distribution of delays (so the optimal solution might be to remove one passenger train and save 20% delays systemwide -- or to remove one freight train and save 18% delays systemwide). In those cases the solution is optimal but not equitable. This will cause political outrage.
I don't profess to know all that much about freight operations or other aspects of this. In fact, only a small number of professionals truly know about this, and they only know because they have conducted a specific analysis. These questions are analytical, and you can only know the answer once you find out all the constraints and do the analysis. Generic oh it tends to be like this dribble is usually worthless, including my own contained in this post. There are some circumstances where fast freihgt may work, but those situations are few and far between.
By the way, an ocean example: Ever heard of the 30 knots "FASTSHIP"? Do you know what happened to them? The concept was invented in the 1950s when gas-turbine engines were all the rage.
AEM7
Coal and ore are the slowlest of the freight train types. Merchandise usually runs around 50 and intermodal 50-70 demending on where you are at. The long flat super railroads out on the plains and in the southwest really see the freight fly.
If you double the speed at which freight travels, you more than quadriple the energy requirements.
That depends on the terrian. In places where you can keep consistant speeds (like out west or on the NYC Main or in Ohio) speeds of 50 or 60 might be optimal. Trains have a very low coefficient of friction so once you get them moving you can notch down from about 8 to 3 or 4 or even less.
For fast freight to work, the freight has to be valuable enough for the logistics cost saving to balance the additional energy, maintenance, and other expenditure associated with higher operating speeds.
I don't think that for light intermodal loads the energy consumption is going to be all that much of an issue. Especially since trucks use about 400hp per trailer and interstates are known for using the cheapest (eg hilliest) land. Same goes for maintainence. A 125-unit roadrailer train moving at 50-70 is probably going to not even come close to the maintaince needed by a coal train moving at 30.
The likely markets for freights travelling at more than about 70mph is perhaps some of the intermodal market -- in competition with airfreight or overnight team drivers. The basic problem with competing against trucking is the ubiquity of the trucking network. One high-speed lane here and there against the thousands of highways out there isn't going to attract that much traffic, because transloading in itself is a cost and of the order of magnitude comparable to the logistics cost savings associated with higher speed for most general merchandize commodities.
The fact that intermodal volumes continue to rise past record levels seems to run contrary to your statement. As both fuel costs and highway congestion rise, not to mention labour costs, intermodal is going to look more and more attractive...that is of course unless the Teamsters kill it. I mean by your logic we should just shut down all the railroads and run trucks because they are "lower cost".
But if you went at 30mph, it will cost you less to accelerate it to 30mph and cost you less to keep it there. Perhaps once you accelerate it to 30mph, you can notch down to 1 or 2 rather than 3 or 4. That translate into big fuel and maintenance cost savings.
I don't think that for light intermodal loads the energy consumption is going to be all that much of an issue. Especially since trucks use about 400hp per trailer and interstates are known for using the cheapest (eg hilliest) land.
Railroad balance sheets generally show that fuel cost is about 20% of a railroad's cost, and crew cost can be somewhere between 30%-50%, while the other costs are less. This of course depends on how you do the accounting. Energy consumption is an issue because energy costs money (even though it is cheap in this country). Given that trucks are lighter, and the same truck could take a load from origin to destination, you will find in a fully-attributed energy analysis that trains are only more energy efficient for moves of more than about 20 containers at once. If you moved one container with one 4,000hp locomotive, that's 4,000hp per container. Even if you moved 20 containers with a 4,000hp locomotive, you need to remember all that excess weight you're tugging around, and that 300hp drayage tractor that you need to keep running around to get the freight to and from the railroad, and the extra mileage you clock up because of the circuity in railroad routings -- it's all going to cost you, in fuel and in real money.
Same goes for maintainence. A 125-unit roadrailer train moving at 50-70 is probably going to not even come close to the maintaince needed by a coal train moving at 30.
"Probably" is incorrect. It has been shown again and again in railroad research that the cost of maintenance on high-density lines is approximately linear with speed. (On low density lines, the cost is more than linear with speed because of weather-related damage). There is a reason why regionals like Guilford do not maintain their track to beyond Class 4 standards, and why Iowa Interstate can run a viable operation even though their prices are much much lower than their competitors'.
The fact that intermodal volumes continue to rise past record levels seems to run contrary to your statement.
Did you notice that intermodal rates have fallen in real terms consistently since the 1980s, while railroad wages and other railroad costs have outpaced inflation? Of course intermodal volumes have continued to rise. But has the revenues?
As both fuel costs and highway congestion rise, not to mention labour costs, intermodal is going to look more and more attractive...
I'm afraid not. Highway congestion has negligible effect outside urban areas, and intermodal relies on urban drayage anyway. The only basis on which intermodal can compete for more traffic is price, and if you price to the point that you can hardly cover your marginal costs of operation, you have problems.
Just so you know:
Rail rates declined. Average rail rates, adjusted for inflation, for Class I railroads decreased by 44% percent between 1984 and 2000 (STB, 2001).
I mean by your logic we should just shut down all the railroads and run trucks because they are "lower cost".
That is the logical result of decades of investment in interstate highways. If the government stopped all highway widening program, this may change. But as long as highway expansions keep pace with transportation demand, intermodal will continue to "not cut it". The age of intermodal growth is over.
AEM7
But if you went at 30mph, it will cost you less to accelerate it to 30mph and cost you less to keep it there. Perhaps once you accelerate it to 30mph, you can notch down to 1 or 2 rather than 3 or 4. That translate into big fuel and maintenance cost savings.
From what I have observed trains don't need much juice once they get up to speed. I have observed commuter train cabs traveling at 100mph and cab moving much slower and the one at 100 only needs a less than linear amount of extra power to stay at 100. Even tutch talks about running the trains mostly in notch 0-2 once he gets up to track speed. The problem lies with grade and curves that requires slowdowns and accelerations.
Given that trucks are lighter, and the same truck could take a load from origin to destination, you will find in a fully-attributed energy analysis that trains are only more energy efficient for moves of more than about 20 containers at once.
Then move 20 or more. NS recently got the FRA to up the limit on roadrailer train lengths from 120 to 150 unit because their trains were maxing out.
If you moved one container with one 4,000hp locomotive, that's 4,000hp per container. Even if you moved 20 containers with a 4,000hp locomotive, you need to remember all that excess weight you're tugging around,
So I guess that one truck cab per trailer don't count as excess weight.
"Probably" is incorrect. It has been shown again and again in railroad research that the cost of maintenance on high-density lines is approximately linear with speed
I wasn't taking about track I was talking about rolling stock maintainence.
I would think that having one driver per trailer would pump up labor costs, too. How many people are on the crew of a freight train hauling 150 piggy-back trailers? I'm not sure but I'm sure it's safe to say there are far fewer than 150 people on the crew of such a train.
Mark
Why bother improving an industry that fools can run, and success depends on luck? I made my choice in working for an industry in decline and in need of real expertise and analytical skills even to hold on to what we still have. The same could not be said for your industry, especially after the dot com bust. Too many fools, too little fools gold.
From what I have observed trains don't need much juice once they get up to speed.
True, but it will cost you dear to get up to speed.
Then move 20 or more.
How many factories or businesses do you know that ship 20 trucks per day to the same destination?
NS recently got the FRA to up the limit on roadrailer train lengths from 120 to 150 unit because their trains were maxing out.
Yes. In the meanwhile, another 1,200 to 1,500 units out there are moving in exactly the same lanes, on the parallel interstate highway.
So I guess that one truck cab per trailer don't count as excess weight.
Truck cab weight: about 5,000 lbs
Highway trailer weight: 2,000 lbs
Container weight: about 3,000 lbs
Payload: about 30,000 lbs
Payload-to-deadweight ratio: about 3:1
Train truck weight: about 3,000 lbs per truck, about one truck per container
Flatcar weight: about 15,000 lbs per flatcar section, about 3 containers per flatcar
Intermodal trailer weight (container plus highway gear): about 4,000 lbs per trailer
Locomotive weight: about 200,000 lbs, about 30 containers per locomotive
Payload: about 30,000 lbs
Payload-to-deadweight ratio: about 3:1.8
Of course, you can get better performance than this both in trucks and in intermodal. But these are (I believe) typical numbers. The only reason rail has any advantage at all is because rail has far lower rolling contact resistance, lower overall labor costs, and some commodities simply don't need to be moved as fast as a truck can go.
It has been shown again and again in railroad research that the cost of maintenance on high-density lines is approximately linear with speed...
I wasn't taking about track I was talking about rolling stock maintainence.
Take a look at the UP budget. Notice that UP spends about four times as much per year on track maintenance as it does on rolling stock maintenance.
How many people are on the crew of a freight train hauling 150 piggy-back trailers? I'm not sure but I'm sure it's safe to say there are far fewer than 150 people on the crew of such a train.
Few than 150 people, but more than 2 people. For each intermodal train dispatched, a team of draymen has to be employed to bring the trailers to the terminal; a team of dockmen has to be employed to load these trailers. Trains require dispatchers and yardmasters to move. In addition, railroad labor is paid much better than truckers (average trucker annual income: about $25,000 to $35,000; average railroad employee, all labor classifications: between $35,000 and $60,000.) The labor saving is important, but not as dramatic as at first glance.
Two people make up the crew of a train. The same as a single team driven trailer truck.
Classic mistake. Don't forget the rest of the people that make the train move.
AEM7
But the way you talk about it the rail industry is failing due to the inherrant superriority of other transportation modes. If other modes are cheaper and faster and more conveinent why not just abandon railroads.
True, but it will cost you dear to get up to speed.
But if you only have to get up to speed in Illinios before having to get down to speed in Colarado that represents are significant savings.
How many factories or businesses do you know that ship 20 trucks per day to the same destination?
Yes. In the meanwhile, another 1,200 to 1,500 units out there are moving in exactly the same lanes, on the parallel interstate highway.
You just contradicted yourself. The 1,200 to 1,500 units are moving to the same destinations en aggragate.
Classic mistake. Don't forget the rest of the people that make the train move.
The rest of the people are fixed costs that can be paid for by gouging the captive rail shippers. Intermodal can then compete on a marginal cost basis.
Correction:
How many factories or businesses do you know that ship 20 trucks per day to the same destination at the TAZ (traffic analysis zone) level?
Yes. In the meanwhile, another 1,200 to 1,500 units out there are moving in exactly the same lanes, on the parallel interstate highway, on an "intermodal hinterland" (metro area to metro area, or BEA to BEA) level.
AEM7
CG
Federal infrastructure support hasn't prevented any number of airlines from going out of business.
Now I watched on TV, since I used to live in Mica's district, his election "dialog/debate" with his opponent. It was the most disgusting thing, before I found out his transportation stance, I didn't want either of the two to ever win.
Anyhow, I'm surprised this is all of a sudden in USA today since it's kinda old news. Trains don't run that fast. Hopefully it'll all be upgradeable.
Problem is, they got an intercity travel problem, the roads aren't working the way they used to. And adding all those lanes everyyear, costs way more than upgrading them tracks.
I did wonder about a comment that one naysayer put forth"
Even if there was a market for high-speed rail, which there is not, this is not high-speed. Its too slow to get anybody out of his or her cars. When you consider getting to the station, going through security, then getting in and out of a cab to get to your destination, theres no advantage at all.
1. Security? Has this guy ever ridden a train before? What security?
2. You have to drive through town to your destination anyway, so what's the big deal about taking a cab when you get there?
That said, I think irishcheiftain raised some very valid concerns with the funding scheme...getting the initial $6 billion from the feds will be tough, plus no form of passenger transportation in this country operates without public subsidy, not air, not rail, not auto. The question of speed should be taken seriously, too. If we're starting from scratch, laying new tracks and everything, let's build a a proper high-speed rail system. I realize Acela is slow because it has to operate through ROW that was never intended to see modern high-speed trains. But a brand new system will have no such constraints. Pull the stops out and let the trains fly!
Mark
The speed definitely needs to be increased by a lot. If Germany has trains doing up to 300 km/h in an area the size of GA, AL and MS, we need need to match that or do better for the amount of states this would cover. Sure, the system doesn't have to perform 300 km/h the whole time, there needs to be ROWs that can do at least double or triple the speed of existing freight and highways 75% of the time.
Mark
I believe just the increased freight traffic alone could pay for the system. Some truck freight would move to rail since they can ship the goods faster. If the freight companies can make a profit on owning and operating "slow" lines, they could make money just being operators and while the ROW owners make money by charging user fees.
Mark
Mark
I realize Acela is slow because it has to operate through ROW that was never intended to see modern high-speed trains
Actually, the Acela Express is slow because it has to operate on undermaintained and not-enough-money-given-for-upgrading ROW. (In fact, Congress shorted the Acela upgrade project by $2.4 billion, cutting approximately in half the $5 billion that was promised – and then the new FRA regs in regards to “crashworthiness” were slapped on top, exacerbating the cost and practicality of the trainsets. However, should the NEC be upgraded at least on the NY-WAS segment, the AE could do a lot of 150-mph running. I don’t see too much hope of faster running on the NY-BOS segment, not unless MNR/CDOT’s signals get upgraded and a narrower tilting high-speed trainset arrives on the scene…)
Anyway, as far as that comment goes, NO, that guy has never ridden in a train before. The professional anti-rail lobby never has, that's why their arguements are less than flimsy.
I remember reading somewhere, if you average the whole airline network, with the spoke and hub system, factor in driving to the airport, parking, security, and transferring, picking up baggage and coming to your destination, the total commerical jet system averages 88mph.
You may think it takes 2.5 hours to get from FL to the NE, but it's more like 6-7.
You may think it takes 2.5 hours to get from FL to the NE, but it's more like 6-7.
Yes, especially when you're not travelling to or from a city with an airport and have to add an hour or two fo highway driving.
If the figure of 88 mph is correct, it might not be so low if air travel were used only for the long cross-country trips, the niche that air does best. It's those short trips, which are often shorter than the ground travel to and from the airport itself, that produces such low averages. If that sort of travel were done using high speed rail instead, air travels averages would go up.
Mark
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Hmmm, interesting redevelopment plan to take the part of the city most able to benefit from a new Union Station and to turn it into a barren field.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#Denver
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Hey Selkirk, is this another station courtesy State Senate Chair Joe Bruno?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#Saratoga
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Wow, its not everyday you see a Trails to Rails project.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#Greenbush
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Sheesh, its dead already. No need to break the tombstone and burry it upside down.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#Dulles
"What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing." [Oscar Wilde]
Considering Maryland just lost the traditional boundary of the states on the Potomac River. Since before the US was born, Maryland's southern boundary was the south bank of the Potomac. The two states have been bickering for 200 plus years, and a recent court decision (after 25 years of back-and-forth) ruled that the boundary is in the middle of the river.
Maryland isn't feeling too happy with our neighbor to the south right now, plus we already pay too much to support WMATA, based on the Maryland mileage. The rest of the state needs transit dollars too.
I don't know enough to argue the merits, and I can certainly see Maryland's point of view. I was merely amused by the cost/benefit analysis, in which the benefit is supposedly unknown ("priceless"), quite a common situation in reality.
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Hmmm, does him failing to mention the Jets and Giants imply that he has given up keeping them in the state?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#Spur
What price Sharpe James pork palace in Newark then?!
The money for the arena has come from the Port Authority, via a new lease on Newark Airport from the city of Newark.
Now the Yankee-Nets consortium is being dissolved, one of the bidders for the Nets will take the team to an as-yet-unbuilt arena in Brooklyn.
December 16th Article in NY Times.
Newsday article, which indicates that the Newark Arena is dead.
So I wonder what the money is being used for. Port Authority Press Relase with Lease Details
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Arti
Moving the team to Newark would be a disaster. The town empties out after dark and you don't want to be walking around there at night anyway. The best solution would be to move the team to Hoboken that way you would have access to the Path and Hoboken is fairly safe with a nightlife.
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Ooo, let's all pray they buy EMD. Those new SD-70's are hot stuff.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#NS
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I have always been advocating that railroads should take a more active effort in trying to lure the bukly and oddball shipments in which they excell off the highways. I would hope that the railroads can now grab a larger chunk of the market in long distance movement of new fire trucks, trailer cabs, RV's, busses, etc, etc. I mean not only does driving a new vehicle accross the country for delivery sort of ruin the "newness" and waste gas, there is probably a greater risk of damage than sticking it on a flat car.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#NS
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df12152003.shtml#Railroads
From my website, with scans of the ad and brochure
And now at transitgallery
Thanks, and sorry about the ad on the top of the page on my site. Haven't been able to reupgrade my package so i can get my space back and be banner free.
This suprecedes the 'old rule ' of three (3) car lengths or to the end of the platform whichever is shorter. (Effective Immediatley)
What else would they do? Read a newspaper?
Elias
No no no~! Not at all. The reading light is provides so that you can read your RULE BOOK. Why else would they may you carry it 24/7 if not to read it. After all, it would make a losey door stop.
(Though if the comfort station were out of paper, you could....)
Elias
A real shame. I much prefer eliminating the C/R Position all together and just install cctv cameras at all stations with in cab monitors for the train operator. The T/O would have a view of the entire platform for the entire time the train leaves the station. Sensors on the car could even be used to turn of camera views of parts of the platform where the train has cleared
New state of the are difital IP based wireless cctv cameras are now available which reduced installation cost dramatically. The camera's only require a power source and nothing else.
David
--Mark
Most folks on the platforms don't notice the "fickle finger of fate" move, but you're probably right - they probably WOULD go for something like that. My apologies. :(
Stupid, stupid, stupid. Like I said, at least the "fickle finger of fate" move is largely unknown to the public and is nowhere near as OBVIOUS. Good thing I ain't with the TA anymore - I'd just hit the PTT before my partner had a chance when the ball lit up and say, "Yo! I got da hookup!" (grin)
I have never noticed it before, because I always rode in the FRONT of the train. When I did watch, it was sort of a lackadasical gesture, almost (at one stop) as an after thought, as if he pointed because he saw me watching him.
Now when I was in Japan...
The motorman would point his finger and hollar out something in Japanese that I could hear but not understand. I presemed he was offering a prayer. A rough translation ught to have been: "HI I HAVE A GREEN LIGHT". He said it out loud and his gesture was styilsed and obvious.
Elias
I didn't think you were hunting wabbits.:)
T/O: Moo. Hey, Bob.
C/R: Hey, Larry. Moo.
T/O: So are we straight as to which side to open up on?
C/R: Moo. Yeah, we're cool.
T/O: Moo.
And what is a "door enabler"?
CG
Having readers and transponders both on the train and on the platform would generate a 'hand shake' and would also tell the platform announcemets what train was in the station.
Elias
1) The Board assurs that the train is all the way into the station, and that he, the conductor, is looking at the correct platform.
2) POINTING at the board reminds the conductor to actually look to see if the board is really there, and that he is in the correct position to open the doors.
3) If he still makes a mistake and opens the doors before the train is fully in the station, or opens the doors where there is no platform, he can not make the excuse "I thought..." (whatever the #@(( he was thinking). The Boss will say: "YOU DID NOT POINT AT THE BOARD, go directly downtown, pee in a cup, and do not collect $200.00"
A Door enabler is under the control of the mottorman. So now if there is an error, they both get to pee in the cup, and do not collect $400.00
Elias
It is the C/Rs that will be gone.
Elias
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Franklin%20Ave%20station/franklin.html
#3 West End Jeff
The only place in New York City that actually scared me was Red Hook, and that from way way back. The South Bronx merely unsettled me.
#3 West End Jeff
--Mark
Where did Cudahy say this? I can't find it in his Malbone book, where he says that "[b]ecause time signals now limit the speed of trains coming down the speed of trains coming down the hill from Crown Heights, the 1974 derailment was more of an inconveinece than a tragedy [...]"
And how slow is "dead slow" anyway? Dead slow (or "dead ahead") is a nautical term meaning about as slow as you can go and still be moving. I found one definition as about 6 feet per minute. Now that's slow. But as applied to the subway I would expect it to be no faster than the standard slow speed on the BMT, which was 6 miles per hour.
I can't find any details at all on this wreck, including on the accidents list on this site, where it is not even mentioned during 1974. I'm sure it was investigated. Was cause ever established?
Cudahy doesn't elaborate on "dead slow", but your suggestion that it was no faster than the standard slow speed on the BMT, 6 mph, is likely accurate.
Perhaps the accident list on this site doesn't mention it, but I have it listed in my NYCTA in the 1970s article in the section near the bottom titled "Fires, Derailments and Accidents". A cause was indeed established:
On December 1st, 1974, a southbound train of R-32s on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle derailed in nearly the same spot and hit the same wall as a doomed elevated train that was the Malbone Street Wreck on November 1st, 1918. The first truck of the first car negotiated the switch to the northbound track near the portal properly, but the second truck did not, staying on the southbound track. The switch had moved under the train because it was hand cranked and not clamped down into position. Car 3669 was damaged and could not be repaired. Service was suspended for a few hours, and single-track operation was run at night. Service was fully restored the next day.
While I don't have it handy, I am sure that my source for that was the NY Division Bulletin from February 1975.
--Mark
That's really unusual. "Hand cranked" to me means that it would have been moved manually, like a yard switch, but that was an automatic switch from day one. If the second truck of 3669 stayed cleanly on the O1 track rather than derailing it implies that the switch was moved under the train rather than that the switch shifted somehow.
The significant damage to 3669 is why I question the "dead slow" assessment. If the M/M was crawling I would have expected him to hit emergency when he realized his car was not straightening on the O2 track before such severe damage occured.
--Mark
Article
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/16/nyregion/16SECA.html
--IslesFan
--Z--
David
If the LIRR couldn't run in wet weather, we would have a basket case of a railroad on our hands everytime we got rain. Unless we get rain on the scale of Noah's Ark, the LIRR can handle it.
I also find it mighty odd that the voice of the 5 does station ID announcements on the new lots branch when the 4 is the one that runs there on the more regular basis.
Yes it is the voice of the 5:
File 1
File 2
File 3
4- Monotonous, and pitch does not vary much. Compare "Franklin avenue" to "President street"
5- Lively, and her pitch and tone does vary greatly.
The recent addition to the 6
The 5 on new lots
Another example of the 5's tonal variation
An announcement with only the 4 voice speaking
"This is an Eastchester-bound <5> express train."
sounds a lot like
"This is a Manhattan-bound <4> express train."
But when she recorded...
"This is a New Lots Avenue-bound <5> express train."
...she put a bit more energy into it.
What does everyone else think?
Witness the several NOT IN SERVICE 5 trains running from E 180th Street to Bowling Green in the PM. Many 5 trains in the AM and PM come from NLTS to begin with. Many of the <5> trains come right out of New Lots yard and run in service to 239th Street yard. If you want to see some 5 trains heading to the Bronx from New Lots, you would be better going to New Lots between 3:00-5:30 PM
The 4 uses NLTS to lay up most of the trains at night, while the 5 uses it to lay up for the next rush hour period.
----
Westchester yard didn't pull the 4 trains that were running on the 6 el (that GO a few months back) into it's yard, so why does New lots do it.
----
The (4) trains don't run on the (6) line on a regular basis, the (4) goes to New Lots every day, the (5) and <5> trains regularly(scheduled) go to New Lots/Utica on the weekdays.
David
Didn't they ever teach you about over-exaggeration? If they NEVER make the return trip to the Bronx, the 4 and 5 would be short on equipment.
New lots isn't home to the 4 or 5, and having trains all over the place makes it easier to have a "lost train", that isn't at its home yard and someone has to think "Hmmm, maybe it's at new lots".
The schedule takes all this into account. Trains are scheduled to go to New Lots and scheduled to come back out. The same intervals do it every day.
Why should the trains be sent back uptown if service is adequate without them? If NYCT is going to spend money to run more trains, shouldn't that money go toward service that's actually needed somewhere?
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/16/nyregion/16SECA.html
The PDF on the web site is at least one revision out of date.
How about subway stations? Were there any stations that totally missed the mark, in terms of size or otherwise, and had to be redesigned?
My vote goes to Times Square on the 1904 IRT route. Despite the fact that the Times had just moved there and many Broadway theaters were moving uptown from the Herald Square area, the planners made it a mere local stop. It was changed to an express stop before very long.
Any others?
That was gonna be my choice. It seems pretty obvious to me. A station that served a shuttle from nowhere to a few blocks away from nowhere. Nice museum, though.
:-) Andrew
1. Times Square - Contract One line.
2. Court Street - Fulton. That station never outgrew it's "shuttle status". Built as the terminal for the Fulton locals, it was soon discovered that it was stupid to not send the locals to Manhattan. The IND idea of only sending expresses to manhattan was ill-conceived. Court Street never was a "mainline" station, although was originally supposed to be.
3. City Hall and all the local stations on the original 1904 subway. They were way underbuilt. they instantly needed to be extended. They were not designed to handle the crowds that came. City Hall was unextendable; a beautiful station but a boondoggle.
4. This sort of plays on the IRT local stations, but seperate the local platforms at Brooklyn Bridge, Union Square, and 96th St were a total waste of time. They were so useless that they were only used from 1904 to 1910, a mere 6 years. They were too short, just like all the local station platforms, and deemed unnecessary to extend in 1910, when the first wave of platform extensions came to the Contract One line.
5. 42nd Street/8th, Lower Level. What a useless station.
Honorable Mention:
Bergen St lower level. Bergen's express platform is a causualty of the IND's ill-conceived idea again of not designing locals to go to Manhattan. The use of the lower level would mean that all locals feed into the Crosstown line, and those people wouldn't have direct Manhattan access. This design made Bergen useless from the beginning, as the express was useless from the beginning, if running just one local (G), and one express (F).
:-) Andrew
In Brooklyn, the Fulton and Crosstown lines cross underneath the IRT under Flatbush Avenue. What's significant about this? It bisects the provisions for IRT Manhattan Bridge trackage that would have used the lower level at Nevins.
If the lower level there was no impediment to the IND, the lower level at 42nd would be no impediment to the IRT.
Future candidate: SAS :-P
Grand St. (Christie St.)
Well.....they at least look obsolete.
Bill "Newkirk"
www.forgotten-ny.com
I do not remember what the complexities were!
They didn't count on the people scrambling from one platform to the other.
Altantic Avenue (IRT) in brooklyn was designed the same way to accommodate the foot-traffic generated by the LIRR at Flatbush terminal, but I wonder if the load there ever really warranted the similar design to Manhattan's RR station subway stops.
And the south underpass between the express and NB local platforms is closed nights and weekends, for no reason whatsoever. A week and a half ago on Sunday, all trains were running local, but as I had entered from the south, I had to go up to the express platform, walk a block, and cross under to reach them.
#3 West End Jeff
Also Grand Central on the 3rd Av El.
If you are going to add Broadway Ferry, you need to add Driggs Ave too, also on the original end of the Broadway El. I guess it could sort of count because it was obsolete when it was fairly new. It was built in 1888, but became obsolete in 1908 when the WillyB opened to train traffic. It did get a good 20 years of "real" use though, unlike stations like Court St where it was banished to shuttle service right from the beginnning, or 42nd St lower which seems completely useless from day one.
Many stations may have been obsolete the day they opened, but this one hurts the most today.
-Jeff
This station was mentioned about a dozen times however...
It's all about a group of friends who visited every station in the entire DC Metrorail system in one day. Rather interesting, indeed.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Mark
p.s.--I had my plan beginning at Shady Grove and ending at either Branch Avenue or Vienna---I haven't decided which plan to go with yet.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Based on what I saw on my photo shoot a couple of weekends ago Morgan Boulevard and Largo Town Center will open before New York Avenue. But I would not put it past WMATA opening all three stations on the same day.
John
Let me know in advance so I can take some time off to go. It is pretty obvious that it would have to be done on a weekday.
I am think about taking off the last week on October next year and use a couple of the those days to make a pilgrimage to New York.
Mark
p.s.--I had my plan beginning at Shady Grove and ending at either Branch Avenue or Vienna---I haven't decided which plan to go with yet.
Did anybody here notice the date that this little adventure took place?
John
what's the significance of the date?
Mark
Friday, March 29, 2002
26th anniversary of first day of revenue operations.
John
Mark
Though their idea of getting bus transfers and a photograph was a great way to verify that they were actually there. LOL and that robot is hilarious.
Robert
Bill "Newkirk"
Would it be possible to install rubber wheels on the NYC subway system? If not completely rubber, then just lined with rubber on the outside?
Guess not =(
Why don't they just connect the rails on the ouside of the track, so the wheel just harmlessly passes over it, rather than the inside, where the wheel strikes the connecting joint?
There are effective noise reduction techniques that can be used for rail transit. NYCT just doesn't use them despite being under a legal mandate to reduce noise levels. The standard for express noise in a local station is 90 dbA. This is the level at which prolonged exposure will result in permanent hearing loss.
Try standing on the BMT 49th Street platform in Manhattan.
Ain't no noise there~
Elias
If I understand what my father keeps trying to tell me about them there was a steel wheel with a rubber insert, covered by another steel ring.
So from the axel, three discs: two of steel with rebber in between.
Elias
David
I could tell that from NYCT rush hour service levels.
The Paris figures are:
Line: Service Level (tph)
1: 40
2: 20
3: 26
3 bis: 20
4: 40
5: 26
6: 30
7: 30
7 bis: 20
8: 24
9: 30
10: 20
11: 24
12: 23
13: 30
14: 30
The only line with ATO is 14. All the others still have operators and a block system. They don't even have positive speed control. That's reserved for the RER A, not the RATP.
Less than 2 minutes: ATO mandatory
2-4 minutes: T/O's choice
More than 4 minutes: Manual driving mandatory
This is to keep the T/Os familliar with manual driving in case it becomes necessary. They still keep the track side signals for manual driving and also have cab signals that duplicate them.
Lines 3bis, 7bis and 10 do not have ATO as their train frequency never goes under 2 minutes.
Where did you get that figures from? How old are they?
I have been searching the web for Paris Metro frequencies but could only find one site at geocities -> "Paris Mtro early 1990s: Monday-Friday Winter Frequencies".
Thanks.
Lisez-le vous-meme.
Also, in Montreal the rubber wheels require the entire system to be underground because of the snow, which is very expensive. Any outdoor sections would require the greater effort and cost to keep the tire ways clear of snow, and problem that does not exist for metal wheeled trains, but does exist for buses and other rubber-wheeled vehicles.
I didn't realize there were such huge differences between the USA and Canada. The snow is free in South Jersey. :)
The higher maintenance costs come from the rubber tires alone. Tires have to be replaced very frequently. Also, they are filled with nitrogen rather than air because of the fire hazard.
Also, in Montreal the rubber wheels require the entire system to be underground because of the snow, which is very expensive
This has not prevented elevated and surface sections of the Paris Metro to be pneued.
One advantage of rubber tires is that they permit steeper grades. This is results in lower tunneling costs than for a conventional steel rail system.
OTOH, I remember the reply from the curator of the Musee des Transports Urbaines to a question I posed back in 1967. I was amazed to see that most of the original Metro equipment was still running. I asked him whether it was expensive to run such old equipment. Yes, he replied, but not quite as expensive as the pneus.
The rubber traction friction n also make the Montreal metro hotter - like the IRT isn't hot enough!
Neat reply from Paris - I always wondered why the MTA couldn't just rebuild the old equipment instead of just replacing it, but probably Paris maintained it all better and didn't have to worry about long-term rusting from deferred maint.
acceleration 4.9 mph/sec
I'd settle for the Bluebird's 4.0.
The joining brackets for non-welded rails never ever come in contact with the flanges. Flanges are not designed to carry a vertical load and do not protrude down anywhere near the web of the rail (the thin vertical bit). Flange contact with the bracket would probably destroy a wheel immediately or derail a train. The noise comes from the small gap in the rails.
What would your solution be to making the system quieter?
There isn't a single solution there are many. Reduce the noise source and reduce its transmission. There are two principal transmission modes: through air and through the structure (vibration).
The easiest way to reduce air transmission is to place a sound barrier/deflector between the source and the listener. You will notice that sound can travel unhindered from the express tracks to a listener on the local platforms in most stations. Another way is to add sound absorbtion to the walls and ceilings. Tile and cement, materials preferred for subway station design, do not absorb sound vary well.
One way to reduce the transmission of vibrations is to isolate the vibratory path with springs (rubber mounts). Tracks should rest on rubber pads. The ties should rest on a resilient material. The roadbed, itself should be acoustically isolated from the rest of the station (it should rest on rubber). Noise sources should similarly be isolated - motor mounts, rubber couplings between wheels and the axle, etc. The major problem is that rubber loses its elasticity with age. That's why most equipment, including the PCC, becomes noisy with age.
There's also the possibility of eliminating the noise source. Linear motors are quieter than rotary motors. The AirTrain system is about 10 dbA quieter than a conventional LRV.
David
A single spring mount is not very effective. One really needs two or more spring couplings for effective attenuation. I thought I made that clear.
The ties are encased in concrete and vibrate through to the roadbed. If the ties were also isolated from the concrete resilient neoprene, there would be significantly more noise reduction - 30 dbA. Another apprach that is often taken is to lay the roadbed on top of a neoprene layer.
The current system with its bare concrete surface and drainage channel reflects nearly all the sound from above. It also acts like a sounding board for for vibrations from the tracks.
Hmmmmm...
Do you think partitions should be build between the express and local tracks, only in stations?
On second thought, that might be a bad idea, because it would hamper evacuation.
I like the idea of having the tracks resting on rubber pads.
Or, the TA could set up a glass partition between the local tracks and the platform. Train doors would be aligned with the doors on the partition.
(See more details on Kawasaki website, here. Unfortuately, this would be VERY susceptible to vandalism.
Julian
P.S. Sorry about the Flash doodad
That's the only place where they would be needed. They need be only 5 feet high at most. Their purpose would be to place the local station platform in an acoustic shadow for all noise generated at track level.
But now to stop the vandalism on them...
I also learned that Seashore owns the trolley currently parked at Boyleston and painted for Boston Elevated Railway -- I think, 4753 was the number.
Clearly the MBTA in the past has made an effort to preserve its transit equipment. Does anyone know if this is still the case? Based on my experience at Riverside, I don't really see much junk lying around on MBTA property anymore. Does this mean the Type 3 and Type 4's would have gone somewhere? If so, does anyone know where they are now?
AEM7
0210 is the Type 3 Main Line el Car I meant.
The 03xx (Type 4) cars don't seem to be there, I am assuming that the T got rid of those. I am glad a pair of #10's made it up there, although when I was last up there I didn't see 'em...
AEM7
The "#4" cars are from what is now the Red Line:
0709 Boston, MA 1927 Osgood-Bradley Car Co. 72 DE #4 Cambridge-Dorchester RT 1988
0719 Boston, MA 1927 Osgood-Bradley Car Co. 76 DE #4 Cambridge-Dorchester RT 1970
0749 Boston, MA 1927 Osgood-Bradley Car Co. 72 DE #4 Cambridge-Dorchester RT 1989
0753 Boston, MA 1927 Osgood-Bradley Car Co. 72 DE #4 Cambridge-Dorchester RT 1988
0754 Boston, MA 1927 Osgood-Bradley Car Co. 72 DE #4 Cambridge-Dorchester RT 1988
Here's a direct link to the list of Seahore's entire collection.
On the outbound outer track are maintenance-of-way cars, that vary from time-to-time. There is a switch to access that track.
Ok, then this is what I've seen being switched around then. -Nick
I will try again on Wednesday or Thursday.
We stayed at a motel on Fairfax Avenue, north of Wilshire Blvd, across from the Farmer's Market and CBS Studios.
The farmer's market was downsized several years ago so that an upscale outdoor mall called "The Grove" could be built on the adjacent land. The stores include Barnes and Noble, Abercombie and Fitch, Nordstrom's and other fancy stores could be build.
Down the center of the street runs a two level custom built trolley. It runs on rails and is battery powered. The trucks are from an old Boston PCC and it uses hydraullic disc brakes. It has a single controller and the reverser key is an actual key (not a wrench look-a-like) that fits into a keyhole on the operators panel. The deadman's switch is actually a foot-pedal that must be kept down at all times.
There is only one trolley. It comes out of the barn, makes a right and proceeds south for about 1/4 mile. Very dull run. They were going to put in two spring switches so that two trolleys could pass each other in the center of the mall but when they found out how much one trolley would cost to build, out went the spring switches.
At one point they must cross a street and the warning light is in the middle of a dish suspended from a light pole and swings back and forth while red.
Once I explained that I belong to Shoreline and have run trolleys they were willing to talk a little more as time permitted. They were jealous that we can get our stuff up to 25 MPH on a straight away and that we have switches, sidings and such.
-Robert King
Streetcar is the better term. It covers every type of steet railway vehicle - horse, cable or electric.
Unfortunately I couldn't find the place, the brouchure with the map completely sucked when I was last in the area.
Hopefully you got some pics. I wanted to see the trolleys and how they got that place set-up.
Mark
As has previously been mentioned, it will not be a long or interesting ride, so don't expect too much. Best of luck.
I've been on it several times, and it is fun, even if it's not a PCC car, Red Car, or even an old LA Railways yellow car.
If there are enough people interested, I can probably lean on some friends at Rutgers to organize something in Piscataway, but thats not Manhattan by a long shot.
No, only one point; it's a big target. Hit Sir John Holmes, you win a cee-gar.
This has got to be a security issue but how to prove it.
Those are supposed to be available only to MTA employees.
We don't need T/O wannabes out there.
--Mark
Anyway these are the ebay rules (thanks to SubwayAl)
"Attention Sellers: Transportation Uniforms/Equipment
Please be aware that eBay has strict regulations regarding any article of clothing or identification relating to transportation security or employment with any transportation related industry, including but not limited to, articles of commercial airline pilot's uniforms, flight attendant uniforms, baggage or airport service uniforms, mass transit train or subway related uniforms. This also includes any official internal, non-public documents, manuals or other materials related to mass commercial public transportation, including internal manuals put out by commercial airlines, or entities operating subways, trains or buses. Vintage or obsolete items may be sold so long as the item description clearly states that the item is at least 10 years old, is no longer in use by the airline and is an obsolete uniform or official manual/document. These policies are very strict and not adhering to them could cause your auctions to be ended. Repeated violations and disregard for these policies will result in the suspension of your account. This policy can be viewed in full through the following URL:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-government.html?fromFeature=Sell%20Your%20Item "
I had fowarded a copy of the ebay policy to the seller (again thanks to SubwayAl for providing the text of the policy). The seller wrote back to me admitting that he wasn't aware of the policy and immediately ended the auction once he read it.
Not much there that hasn't already been discussed here...
Gov. Pataki (PATURKEY!) is making the dedication. Open to the public starting at 2:00 PM. Free rides until midnight.
Also worth taking a look at is the MTA's page on JFK Airtrain at:
http://www.mta.info/mta/airtrain.htm
The MTA's page claims that some airlines will check luggage (actually luggate -- the MTA bungles the spelling at least twice) at the airport, which is something I hadn't seen confirmed.
Happy riding everyone.
CG
Sweet! I'll be there!
1. According to the A train instructions, what should I do if the train is marked "Rockaway Park"? (sarcastically)
2. So in reference to the J and Z, they run every 10 to 20 minutes on evenings and weekends? I thought the Z ran only during AM and PM rush.
If you can comprehend a subway map, you take the Rockaway Park train. If you're a complete idiot, you wait a few minutes for a Far Rockaway train. Since there are only five Rockaway Park trains a day, I doubt it will be much of an issue.
2. So in reference to the J and Z, they run every 10 to 20 minutes on evenings and weekends? I thought the Z ran only during AM and PM rush.
Yes, the E *OR* J *OR* Z run every 5-10 minutes during rush hours and 8-12 minutes (not 10 to 20) evenings and weekends. It doesn't specifically say the Z runs evenings and weekends. Someone waiting at Essex St on a Saturday afternoon is going to look for a J *OR* a Z (or just read the sign over the platform explaining the Z only runs rush hours); they're not going to decide to wait for a Z. Another non-issue.
Get on and get off at Howard Beach!
Anyhow, yay, free rides tomorrow!
http://www.mta.info/mta/airtrain.htm
http://www.panynj.com/pr/pressrelease.php3?id=457
If he shows up. For the PATH Exchange Place and WTC re-openings, he was scheduled to speak but didn't show.
Though he did visit Thursday, November 20. "Awful case of the flu," eh?
Stay tooned!
Thursday evening I'll be back at Howard Beach to witness the obscenities.
Haven't the MTA heard of that useful feature in most word processing packages called the Spell Check? There is an exceptionally small village in East Lothian, Scotland, called Luggate Burn, but I do not expect that to figure.
Posted on:12/16/03 1:24:40 PM
Due to a fire at 205th Street and 10th Avenue, 1 subway service is suspended between Van Cortlandt Park/242nd Street and 168th Street in both directions until further notice.
BTW,
Station announcments were saying take the A train to 207 for a shuttle bus to the #1 for a shuttle train.
RIP, and I hope that he is the only one.
Kudos to those involved for getting this information out to the public, even on connecting lines.
Why can't 1's run up to Dyckman and relay on the middle track? Power shut off, or too much smoke?
That's what I was just thinking...
Da Hui
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Subject
---------------------------------------------------------------
About the New Manhattan Bridge Service Pattern in Feb 2004
Discussion Thread
---------------------------------------------------------------
Response (Antonio Ligonde) - 12/16/2003 02:18 PM
This is in response to your recent e-mail to MTA New York City Transit regarding
several transit-related suggestions.
We truly appreciate your interest in New York City Transit and your many
suggestions. Please be aware that the construction on the Manhattan Bridge by
the New York City Department of Transportation (NYCDOT) and, before that, by the
New York State Department of Transportation (NYSDOT) has reduced capacity and
disrupted subway operations on the Manhattan Bridge since 1986. Although the
Manhattan Bridge has two pairs of tracks connecting Brooklyn and Manhattan,
since 1986 New York City Transit (NYCT) has only been able to use one of the two
pairs at any given time. Currently, the pair connecting Brooklyn with the
Broadway Line is open, while the pair connecting Brooklyn with the 6th Avenue
Line is closed.
Furthermore, during the current phase of construction, the Manhattan Bridge is
closed to all subway service on weekends, so that NYCDOT can undertake the final
phase of the work necessary to complete the rehabilitation. These weekend
closures have lengthened travel times for weekend customers form Bay Ridge who
normally take an R train and transfer to the Q at the DeKalb Avenue station for
service over the Manhattan Bridge.
Although subject to change, NYCT plans to operate 6th Avenue and Broadway
service via the bridge beginning in February 2004. At that time, service will
change, with the N express service to Broadway being rerouted via the Manhattan
Bridge at all times except late nights and the D express service to 6th Avenue
replacing the current W train.
At all times, including nights and weekends, riders to and from Bay Ridge and
elsewhere in southern Brooklyn will benefit from faster, more direct service via
the Manhattan Bridge, with more service options. Both R and N service will run
more frequently during rush hours. R riders will be able to transfer to express
trains via the Bridge at both the 59th Street-4th Avenue station (N via 6th
Avenue, Weekdays only) and the De Kalb Avenue station (Q via Broadway, weekdays
and weekends).
It may also interest you to know that before these decisions are finalized the
Division of Operations Planning will conduct studies passenger counts at key
station locations, calculate the operating frequency needed to meet rider
demand, and adjust operations and schedules accordingly. NYC Transit will also
distribute brochures in early January detailing the changes. In addition, we
will also conduct an extensive outreach campaign in connection with subway
service if and when changes occur. In addition, we are always prepared to work
with individual customers to devise alternate trips to get them to and from
their destinations. Customers can call our Travel Information Center at (718)
330-1234, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Furthermore, we encourage you to log
onto our website at www.mta.info to get more information about these changes as
they become available.
We hope this information is helpful and thank you for having taken the time to
contact us.
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My Response to MTA
Customer (Michael Lau) - 12/15/2003 03:40 PM
Hello
Recently my home station has posted a bulletin regarding the information on the
new Manhattan Bridge Service Pattern that is slated to go in effect sometime in
February 2004. I want to know if Transit Authority will soon issue a Brochure
(that highlight the new Manhattan Bridge service pattern including the map
pinpointing train service over the manhattan bridge and Montague Street Tunnel)
to NYC Transit customer like myself. And when will NYC Transit Authority have
these New Manhattan Bridge Service Brochure available in my station? These
brochure will certainly be helpful source in organizing my new travel plan
David
The changes will not take place on February 1. They will probably take place on February 22; a later date is a remote possibility.
Huh?? N via 6th Ave??
That's interesting. I guess they are going 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 6 (M).
I assume that the change will occur at midnight. It could be Saturday February 1/Sunday February 2, or any week thereafter. When someone here announces the day of the pick, we'll know.
That's 56 tph out of DeKalb with 50 going to midtown. They used to run 75 tph out of DeKalb before Chrystie St with 51 trains going to midtown. Just how does the TA define increased service?
Ha ha they didn't answer your "question."
NYC Transit will also distribute brochures in early January detailing the changes.
Ha ha Ha They did! :P
They didn't answer the above question.
Ha Ha they did!!
I can see every suggestion that the N will stop at DeKalb at night.
If the link doesn't work, cut and paste the address.
Negative, but the Holme-less found in them were!
--Mark
David
Most people would assume that it should cost less not to collect fares than to collect them. The TA proved them wrong.
Free return fares were to be given only to people who entered the system after 8 pm. Therefore, one had to purchase a token from the ticket agent, rather than use one that might have been purchased previously, The purchaser also received a return ticket. This ticket had to be used between midnight and 5 am. It required going back to the token agent or to a special ticket collector and passing through the exit gate.
The net result is that it took more personnel not to collect fares than it ever took to collect fares.
The point is that most organizations would have simply opened up the exit gates from midnight to 5 AM. The TA decided to make it complicated and use more personnel. I suppose that they also had their accounting department figure out how many free tickets were distributed and how many were redeemed and where.
The question should not be how many TA personnel are required to replace a light bulb it should be how many are required not to collect a free fare. The only problem is that this wasn't a joke.
David
I'm a bit confused. How does whether passengers enter through turnstiles or the exit gate influence these aspects. I'd think the question of whether to operate the system or shut it down would have a greater effect. However, not operating on New Year's eve and morning was never an issue. Even the TWU would always extend the contract to 5 AM, when the contract used to expire on Dec 31st.
David
Was this our friend notchit's idea
A map on woman's chest (whisper)
Doubtful. But if it is, the expression "milf" comes to mind :)
--Mark
(Wait until you see the two tokens I am going to auction off next!)
Like....uh.....Where is she gonna be m-m-m-odeling those round tokens?
Know how hella hard it is for some of US to get our ladies to pose like that??
Even moreso, with a TRANSIT piece?
Yeao.
I don't think so. The top part of a fake hooter often has a rippled appearance seldom seen on a real one. These ones don't have that telltale rippling.
You see more at the beach.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled trains.
Does that have something to do with the delivery method that will be used for the winning bidder?
--Mark
[Hey, don't look at me that way - that situation was just begging for that comment)
Mark
Deer Runs Through Metro Station
(12.16.03- AP) This wasn't the typical Metro fare jumper. Startled passengers looked on in amazement one morning this month as a deer jumped the gates at the Addison Road-Seat Pleasant station.
Security cameras caught the whole thing, and Metro officials released the tapes on Monday after reviewing them. The deer walked around the mezzanine, ran down the escalator, then darted down the platform past a waiting train. He then jumped onto the tracks, avoiding the third rail, and headed off into the woods.
Metro officials say deer often wander onto their rights of way, and most make it out safely. But a deer inside the station is rare.
Chuck Greene
http://www.news8.net/news/stories/1203/114098.html
The dear was very polite, he used the down esculator to get to the platform
That could be extended to any on- or above-ground or open cut terminal station in the system where trains stand on the tracks with the doors open.
#3 West End Jeff
Someone had to say it.
#3 West End Jeff
Dang... I thought it was a computer animation.
You know what would have been more funny/scary? If the deer actually boarded the train just seconds before the train operator sticks his/her head out the window to close the doors, and the deer is trapped inside the subway car!
I am surprised that the deer did not board the train that was sitting in the station. That would of been really funny.
The book sells for $16.95.
If they listened I'll be adding this item to my collection
BTW, I recently picked up a paper model of AFC-Gibbs Hi-V that came out for the 75th anniversity (contains matches).
Chuck
Their speed controls are not interchangeable.
Bill "Newkirk"
CSSs work with pulses in the rails. The standard 4 aspect type uses pulse rates of 0, 75, 110 and 180 ppm. The LIRR has added 2 or 3 extra rates between these standard ones. If an MNRR CSS box reads a rate of like 140 as 110 or "go haywire" will determine if it could actually operate on the LIRR. Now, of course the LIRR lines, especially since they have gone to rule 562 operation over most of their territory, have probably been engineered with the extra codes in mind so they wouldn't really want the MNRR equipment running over their territory, but that dosen't mean that the MNRR CSS won't function in LIRR territory. (It might also be an FRA issue re: appropiate safety appliances in operation.)
Its the same way that the Reading owned the CNJ or the PRR owned the LIRR. Both put their mark on the road, but neither dissolved it completely.
Because they were built by different (competing) railroad moguls.
Because Metro North used to be the New York Central Railroad with service to Chicago via the "Water Level Route"
Because the Long Island Rail Road, was always (more or less) the Long Island Rail Road and chartered as such. IINM It is the OLDEST SURVIVING Originally Chartered railroad in the United States. It was originally built as a service to Boston.
The MU equipment is not compatable because of differences in the third rail (overrunning vs underrunning).
Penn Station does not have five platform minutes of excess capacity during peak hours.
Finally, there is not enough demand for a thru train to go from Metro North to Long Island.
Perhaps when LIRR goes into Grand Central, enough space in NYP will become available for MN to have some departures there via Hell Gate Bridge, But I would not bet the ranch on it, since NJT also wants those platforms.
AMTRAK has no reason to go to Long Island, and they do not have trackage rights there. Only Genisis Locomotives are compatible with pulling AMTK equipment on LIRR tracks, and those do not have the correct signal equipment onboard.
Elias
If Airtrain is a success, MTA should consider running through trains from the New Haven over the Hell Gate bridge to Jamaica, for airport passengers.
Or New Haven passengers could simply fly out of New Haven.
Elias
That will change when we BAN AIR SHUTTLES from the 3 NYC airports.
NYP ro WAS or BOS is AMTRAK TERITORY! Take a Train.
Fly shuttles from the outlying areas, Islip, Stewart, and New Haven.
Any thing at all to keep Extra Traffic out of NYC>
Elias
Yup, that would be the state of CT. The state of CT does not want to make it easier to fly in and out of JFK, they want people from CT to use their own international airport....Hartford's Bradley International. I could see them raising a big fuss if they tried running through trains towards JFK....
That being said, I think CT needs to improve passanger service along the New Haven to Springfield route...possibly with a stop at (or shuttle service to) Bradley international.
I understand Metro North service, overall, is better than that of the LIRR. If the two merged, would that be an example of Socialized Poor Service ?
What would be cool would be to actually physically connect all three systems. Imagine a single seat ride from White Plains to Montauk....
MTA Railroads (LIRR, Metro North, CDOT/Metro North, NJ Transit/Metro North, South Brooklyn Railroad)
MTA Subway (NYC Subway, SIRT)
MTA Reginal Bus (NYC DOB, MaBSTOA, LI BUS (MSBA))
MTA Bridges And Tunnels (Triboro Bridge and Tunnel Ath.)
MTA Admin
MTA Real Estate
:-) Andrew
They already do that. Unofficially, anyway. To this date MTA LI Bus is really the Metropolitan Suburban Bus Authority, MTA Bridges and Tunnels is really the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority, and so on. I don't think the corporate names will ever be completely eliminated.
:-) Andrew
The LIRR and MNRR are still seperately chartered railroads, the LIRR being the oldest railroad still operating under its original charter. Any merged railroad, even if the divisions retained their old names, would be under a new charter and totally destroy the rich heritage of the LIRR.
The heritage will remain, existing charter or otherwise. Despite Selkirk's views on Albany, they still don't have the power to rewrite history up there. Bragging rights and nomenclature are not reasons to stand in the way of change, especially when there are so many other [better] arguments that could be made in opposition of a unified railroad.
Mark
I don't think anyone expected any operating changes to come from this.
CG
The name they were considering was “MTA Rail Road,” but I believe that notion was abandoned due to unpopularity and the confusion it would cause. The announcement is missing from the MTA website, but this page contains the text that used to be there.
They were also going to throw the NYC subway system plus the SIR under “MTA Subway,” the NYC Transit buses, LI Bus and MaBSTOA under “MTA Bus,” plus have MTA Capital and MTA Bridges & Tunnels.
While NYCT documentation tries it's best to refer to the A and B Divisions, IRT, BMT and IND pop up alot.
I agree that skip-stop makes little sense. To best serve passengers, it should be eliminated and all 1 trains should make all stops. If the kinks are worked out, some (alternate?) trains should terminate at 137th or Dyckman so that service south of 137th could be increased without overburdening the Bronx terminal with much more service than it needs.
What was the source of the rumor, does anyone remember?
What I would do, is to cut the east track and the west track and dig them down so that as the train travels north is goes down and then can loop under the 145th Street Station, and come back up on the west side.
Call it the 137th Street Loop.
Then there would be no need to fumigate the trains.
Call it the (9) Train. The (1) and the (9) service all stations south of 137th Street, only the (1) train goes north of 137 Street.
Elias
If they did do the peak direction express, which would be better:
Making the (9) express run with the 2 (and make the (3) local)
Making the (9) express run local after 96th street
And this is sorta off the subject of the express, but it still relates to the Broadway IRT:
Making 59th an express station would be possible! The TA could make a diamond crossover on the north + south sides to allow the express trains to stop at the station (on the local platforms). They could then go back to the express track after they continue on their journey.
That would eat LOADS of time in the merges, plus, at least in rush hour, there are more trains than one track could take.
The station where this setup would usefully work is Lafayette St on the C. The express and local merge at Hoyt anyway, so there's nothing lost. EB there's already a switch East of the station which would allow A trains to platform there (running local Hoyt to Lafayette). WB, it's more difficult: it either needs an extra switch or the platform to be extended over the local trackway.
Nice to know that the updated announcements have corrected this error. Too bad the updated announcements haven't been installed on the 2's R-142's, where they're badly needed.
The Electronic strip maps are not in use. Please listen to announcements and read the displays.
Actually, when I first saw the train approaching, it was signed as a 2, but as it pulled into the station, the signs were all off. It then announced that the next stop was Newkirk Avenue, and as the doors were closing it corrected itself (only to be interrupted by the doors -- no, I did not toss my bag between the doors as some are wont to do, in part because it contained nine small glass cups).
Maybe this 2 train was sent up the local tracks to provide extra equipment.
Why can't the TA just put the 5's updated R142s on the 2 permanently? Put the 2's R142s permanently on the 5 because they at least announce the Q and W when they run as 5's.
As an aside to this, i never knew that Utica-bound (5) trains ran up the local track south of Franklin.
It might be an optical illusion in the picture, but it almost looks slanted. Was this an experimental front end that was not adopted?
--Mark
In fairness to the Boston riders, the red line trains are not painted fully red; there is only a red stripe...unlike the redbirds in NY. -Nick
You were right about that, thanks for the link.
Green Line
3666 = '66' (wreck damaged, at Riverside)
3712 = '712'
3446 = '446'
3813 = '813'
Red Line
01501 = '501'
01623 = '623'
01733 = '33'
01803 = '803'
I am not sure what the convention at the Bus Dept is, but I imagine 0303 would be called '303', and 0002 would be called '02', but there are the 8500 series (35-footers) and 8800 series (the suburban versions of RTS-II) and I am not sure what they'd call those on the radio.
AEM7
BUT, BSRA's 1986 MBTA track map does call the repainted 01400 cars "Red Birds"! The 015-01700s are referred to as "South Shore Cars."
T riders today don't seem to care what kind of Red Line car they get on. No matter what, they know there will be delays, especially approaching Park Street northbound in the morning, and southbound in the evening. It sure would be nice if a 3rd track could be installed there; the dwell time at Park Street is so long that it causes delays in service that ripple down the line. Oftentimes when I leave MIT at 5pm it can take 15-20 minutes just to get from Kendall/MIT to Park Street.
I do. I dislike the 01500-01700 series, and I would always prefer to be on a Bombardier car. Not that I have much of a choice in the matter. When I am at JFK/UMass in the morning though, I will preferentially get on the Ashmont train, even if the Braintree blinker goes off first. Ashmonts in the AM rush are less crowded, and are always given the right of way in front of a Braintree train (because the emptier train should go first to empty the platforms at Andrew and Broadway).
No matter what, they know there will be delays, especially approaching Park Street Northbound in the morning, and Southbound in the evening. It sure would be nice if a 3rd track could be installed there; the dwell time at Park Street is so long that it causes delays in service that ripple down the line. Oftentimes when I leave MIT at 5pm it can take 15-20 minutes just to get from Kendall/MIT to Park Street.
Todd, that issue is well documented. The problem is not the lack of capacity, it's the location of track circuits. In the Southbound direction, Park St and Downtown Xing are in the same track circuit block, thus one train will not proceed in advance of the crossovers immediately north of Park St until the previous train has cleared Downtown Xing Station.
There are, however, good reasons for not removing that feature. Allowing simutanious-platforming at Park St and Downtown Xing would be good, but increasing capacity through that section will lead to bunching further down the line. Trains need to be held at the busiest stops until its scheduled departure time, and that 'hold' between Charles and Park has the effect of spacing train departures at Park (so no two trains could arrive at Park immediately after one another). This prevents the trains from being bunched up further down the line.
It's a stupid feature, and the trains should definitely be held at Park St with doors OPEN instead of being held AHEAD of Park St with doors CLOSED. But the feature is necessary for the regulation of headways.
In the Northbound direction, the train is permitted to pull up OUT of Downtown Xing and run into Park as soon as Park vacates. Again, that is a compromise -- you end up with half the train in Downtown Xing but a faster time-between-trains at Park. My solution would be to move the block to immediately beyond Downtown Xing, so that the train could stay in the station with doors open while the train ahead loads at Park.
AEM7
Secondly, the Union question is if the SIR T/O's are UTU or TWU.
Matter transporters are installed at Whitehall and St. George? :)
Let's see R (for Richmond) is already in use, S (for Staten Island) is also taken.
Any thoughts?
The Roster summary in the back of the book is vital information.
Just as long as they are periodically washed, they will shine.
Is not Mr. Greller entitled to his opinion as well?
OTOH I'd puke up Turkey if he were calling the Rmadillos THAT!
Here's a bit of a start:
H.C.I.F. when I saw a black tag of GRAFFITI on an R143 car on the (L) at Union Square-14 Street. Good thing it's only stainless steel. :)
Great to see you back on the board, New Look Terrapin! :)
By if a rehab were to be given, shouldn't be given a retro IND subway look, with bathroom and color band tiling and retro IND subway entrance ?
Since the station is located in and upscale area, it deserves a better look than what it now has. The funny thing about the station is that the restrooms are located in the mezzanine and not within fare controls.
Bill "Newkirk"
The IRT, BMT, and IND got it right the first time. 57th Street would look great with a retro design.
That's a matter of opinion. But there's no reason why we couldn't make sure it's done right at 57 St.
If they did put in an elevator, that would mean F riders would have a string of consecutive ADA-compliant stations, starting from Roosevelt-Jackson Heights (now under construction and scheduled for completion November 2005), through the new Connector Stations, then would come 57th. I don't remember if Rockefeller Center is ADA compliant, but 34th Street is. Is 42nd Street also?
Oh No!
....awaiting the wrath of RonInBayside....
Just kidding, but you remember what happened last time we tried to talk about "key stations".
See "The Future Was Yesterday"...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/modernsubs/modernsub.html
This station is just 35 years old, and most of the 70+ year old stations need attention.
I was at Brooklyn's 7th Ave & 9th St F station today and it still have water leakage and much tile damage. It could use a renovation!
The Newsday article two days ago stated that most of the Airtrain riders would originate from Manhattan.
Since you can buy a round LIRR ticket / Metrocard that encompasses a round trip fare and round trip subway ride, perhaps there should be a $11.75 one way LIRR ticket to Jamaica and one way Airtrain fare. The reverse could take place at Airtrain JFK for those who want to purchase one ticket for the "two seat ride" to Manhattan.
One way "peak" fare from NYP to Jamaica is $6.75. There is no off peak fare for this zone.
Any thoughts ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Also, weekend fares to Jamaica will soon be $2.50 under the CityTicket plan.
Perhaps Newsday wasn't aware of the CityTicket plan, but the focus is one ticket for both modes of travel. No stopping at Airtrain Jamaica to buy the metrocard when you already have the one you purchased at Penn Station. And maybe with the CityTicket plan, drop the cost of ticket to an even $7.00. Create an incentive.
Bill "Newkirk"
In fact, i'd take it one step further...but i'll save that for the end.
The reason for this is that intermodal travel is "seamless" in an ideal world. When I say seamless, I mean the trouble of changing modes (or in this case, changing trains), should be minimal. Thats what I learned in my intermodal transportation class. Somehow I suspected that New York would screw it up by making people stop to purchase 2 tickets, and I was right.
New Jersey Transit sells combo tickets for Newark Airtrain and NJT trains. The tickets have the origin and destination printed on it to be checked/punched on board the NJT train, and they have the mag-stripe on the ticket for Air train. For the few that don't have a mag-strip ticket for whatever reason (such as they bought ticket on board the train), the fare can be paid seperately, but that seems to be the exception rather then the norm.
If NJT/Port Authority can work something out, I see no reason why MTA/Port authority can't for JFK Airtrain.
So, my grand idea: add "JFK Airport via Jamaica" as an "LIRR station" at the TVM's. What it does....it prints the ticket onto a Metrocard, and gives a card with $5 value on it. If the round trip option is chosen, it will give a $10 card (without the bonus, since it is primarily to be used for airtrain). The LIRR tickets would still be sold peak/off peak as appropiate. This eliminates the need to purchase a Metrocard at Jamaica for those originating at Penn or any other LIRR station. I'd also maybe display a notice (or even print it on the ticket) saying that you need to swipe the ticket to get onto an off of Airtrain.
What about those going to an LIRR from JFK? Well, put LIRR TVM's at the airtrain stations! (or maybe just jamaica due to cost constraints, since you wouldn't need a ticket until you arrived at Jamaica air train terminal anyway). Those LIRR TVM's would be programmed to automatically include the $5 metrocard option along with the LIRR ticket printed on it.
For subway users, the seamless connection already exists....Metrocard. I would still place notices in all subway stations displaying the Airtrain fare, so people who buy metrocards know how much value to put onto a card, and so that people know that they can't use unlimited ride cards. For the airtrain end, I'd make sure that airtrain users know that the subway fare is $2 so maybe they'd only have to purchase one metrocard...but...a notice saying that if you want to purchase an unlimited card for the subway, you have to purchase it seperately. But i'd still place an MVM inside airtrain so that people can buy it at one time, rather then have to wait on line twice, etc.
I can see some people being confused over the unlimiteds. Why do they sell them for $70 outside and only $40 inside airtrain?? Some people might buy the $40 one and be in for a nice surprise when the try to use it on the subway!
Bill "Newkirk"
Rock ya body PA check one, two
Cuz it aint a party till the crew run through
Shake ya body show me whachu can do like Ohh, Ohh
Rock your body, PA check 1, 2
Cap'n spin the wheel, rock into the groove
Bump it louder so the geese wanna move
Like Ohhh, Ohhh
--Mark
The crew member that operates the doors.
Elias
AEM7
AEM7
Yes.
Isn't that the Isreali shipping company?
No. Danish. Headquartered in Copenhagen. They did merge with Sealand a while ago -- Sealand was an American company, based out of one of the Southeast ports (I forget which), and was traded several times with the last owner being CSX Transportation, which sold it to Maesrk sometime ago. CSX kept the terminals (and that division is now called CSX International Terminals).
What a coincidence if you get my drift.
Not a coincidence at all.
History of Maersk
In pictures
For the record, ZIM is the Israeli shipping company.
It's near the token booth at the 68 Street - Hunter College station on the (6). It shows only the affected lines, and where they'll be going, and explains briefly the changes taking place. I'm not sure why they'd place this on the Lexington Avenue Line, but I'm sure pretty soon they'll put some up in the stations along the Broadway Line and 6th Avenue Line.
http://www.mta.info/nyct/manhattan_bridge.htm
There are reports all the time that someone is on the tracks. Someone jumps down to retrieve a dropped item, etc. If they cut power every time you'd have massive delays.
> What exactly happens when 3rd rail power is cut, signals turn to red, trip arms go up, and does the train go BIE?
Signals/stop arms run on AC power. When the third rail is cut it affects the trains only. They can't move, the lights and other electrical systems run off of the batteries and after a while the trains go BIE because the compressors are no longer running so the system can't maintain enough pressure to keep the brakes charged (at least that's how I understand it).
> What normally does the command center do when they can't get in touch with one of their trains (I assume this was an OPTO).
Control Center will usually they'll just shout over the radio until they're heard. A local tower will try to have a passing train get in touch with the other depending on the circumstances.
> Unfortunately, the MTA will be found guilty and pay millions of dollars, as the T/O probably broke a major rule w/o having his radio. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
Unfortunately there's dead spots all over the system where crew radios are useless. Don't know if this could be one of those cases. Did it say that it is proven the T/O didn't have his radio or is this inferred because he did not respond?
Signals/stop arms run on AC power. When the third rail is cut it affects the trains only. They can't move, the lights and other electrical systems run off of the batteries and after a while the trains go BIE because the compressors are no longer running so the system can't maintain enough pressure to keep the brakes charged (at least that's how I understand it).
When third rail power is cut, trains can't take power - however, they can coast and are instructed to do so, so as to get the train to a station (or emergency exit). Of course, if you happen to be operating a diesel work train, you'll never know power has been cut.
That would make sense, so probably not. :)
This revalation came to me tonight while I was visiting someone who lives on Western Ave....her address is Washington, DC...but she told me that the people who live across the street are Maryland residents. Sure enough, all the cars in the driveways on her side had District of Columbia plates, and all the cars on the other side had Maryland plates.
I've yet to EVER hear an announcement "this is the last station stop in the state of Maryland" or similar announcement when traveling the Shady Grove part of the Red line.
One other thing I find interesting....very infrequently is the state line announcement made correctly on the Orange, Blue, and Yellow lines. It is the State of Maryland, the District of Columbia, and the COMMONWEALTH of Virginia. Thats right, VA is a commonwealth, not a state :) (Pennsylvania, Kentucky, and Massachusetts are the other commonwealths in the USA).
Commonwealth pride :)
Try the duck test.
Mark
More so than Brooklyn and the Bronx?
Which is?
I use the station on an almost daily basis and I take the outbound train in the morning, so I enter DC each day for the sole purpose of boarding/alighting my train. On rare occasions, I go to Bethesda in the evenings.
I hear many operators say "This is the last stop in DC" as they enter Friendship Heights going to Shady Grove and vice versa for Glenmont-bound. When I never hear it is entering/leaving Takoma on the other side of the line, but I don't go there often. Keep in mind most operators announce first/last stop in DC, not MD or VA. I have heard one operator announce "This is Rosslyn, last stop in the Commonwealth State of Virginia" causing a number of tourists to freak out, assuming the train was going out of service.
I invite you to join the DC area SubTalkers and BusTalkers the next time there is a get together, but as some of the BusTalkers can tell you, I most likely won't show unless the itinerary involves Ride-On route 27. ;-)
It's funny, because I've noticed almost the exact opposite as most of you, hearing "last station in Virginia" so much, and not for DC or Maryland in either direction.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
Question: does anybody know how many R-142 will becoming to the 7 and is the 7 going to be a 2 type car line ?
My info says that as soon as Corona gets rebuilt it will get more nad more R-142
When will Corona be rebuilt? I don't think ANY R142s can go to Corona until this happens, which is why the 180th St. shop was rebuilt before the first R142 arrived there. -Nick
It's being rebuilt right now.
According to the MTA's Capital Improvements manual, activation of the new Corona barn is projected for 2007.
Finally, experiments and political whim aside, there is simply no way to assign R-142/142A type equipment to the 7 in a meaningful way without cutting train lengths to 10 cars.
Again, for each 11-car train, it is necessary to "use" 15 cars. MTA simply cannot justify idling otherwise perfectly functional equipment to mollify what amounts to a political concern.
The ultimate answer may be CBTC, but only time will tell.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The cars wouldn't necessarily be idle; while the 7 runs 6+5 car sets, the other IRT lines could be running 6+4 car sets. I'll agree it doesn't seem likely.
First take two 5 car sets and remove 2 "B" cars from each leaving two 3 car sets.
Next add one "B" car to each of four different five car sets.
You are left with:
2 - Three car sets
4 - Six car sets
No left over cars.
Take the 2 three car sets, couple them together and add a five car set. You have an 11 car train.
Take the 4 six car sets, and cople them to five car sets. You have four 11 car trains.
Final result is five 11 car trains, and no odd ball cars left over.
ABBBAABBBBA
ABBBAABBBBA
ABBBAABBBBA
ABBBAABBBBA
ABBBAABAABA
This leaves no orphaned cars. You have 3,5,& 6 car sets.
Plus, to my knowledge the New Technology Trainsets require a minimum of 4 cars for all the necessary equipment to be present and in proper position for interface between cars.
This is the unfortunate downside of unitization: the ability to tailor equipment configuration for service requirement variations is sacrificed.
Why such a rush in the first place? New equipment for the Flushing Line is inevitable "at some point." Right now the trade-off is new trains of 10 cars or older trains of 11 cars. To have cake and eat it, too, will require time needed for new specifications to be developed and an acquisition process formulated and funded.
'Twasn't such a big deal on the Mainlines.
Regards, and Happpy Holidays,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
It just seems that people on this board are convinced it will happen, and I was trying to find a way it "could" be done without creating "orphan cars".
If in fact, the electronics need at least 4 cars in a set, than my idea will not work.
My thoughts are to wait for CBCT, and at that point run 10 car trains with more frequent headways. This should be possible once CBCT is functioning on the Flushing line.
Now maybe we know why many valuable contributors fro the MTA no longer contribute in a meaningful way.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
ABBAABAABBA 6xA; 5xB
ABBBAABBBBA 4xA; 7xB
ABBBAABBBBA 4xA; 7xB
ABBBAABBBBA 4xA; 7xB
ABBBAABBBBA 4xA; 7xB
22xA; 33xB
would be the same as
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
ABBBA 2xA; 3xB
22xA; 33xB
But of course that is just a projection. If the barns have already started being built, we all know it won't take long for the completion. March '04 could definitely be a possibility for activation. -Nick
The new barn will be located in the present Yard B. To visualize it, walk out onto the plankway from Willets Point Blvd. station to Arthur Ashe Stadium and the LIRR, march out to the shelter above the first stairway down to the LIRR platform and turn 180 degrees. Walk straight ahead (toward Flushing) and you will be looking at Yard B. Imagine it with a spanking new building, appreciably larger than the existing barn, a rebuilt lay-up yard and (reportedly) a loop track snaking behind into what presently is part of the Creek itself.
If you can successfully imagine what is to be, you should also realize how much work there is to be done.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
So what about it, guys? Will the unification of the aeroplane and the train ever take place, i.e., will there ever run magnetically (or otherwisely) levitated trains under NYC? Or will this for ever remain a fantasy, to be looked back at by people in another 100 years as a foolish attempt of early 21st century-dream-a-lots?
I love trains. That being said, and this may sound like treason: Was airline growth worth it? You bet it was. It's the best thing that happened to transportation since the steam monsters pulled people from one side of the country to the other on the rails.
Plane travel is great. I would much rather spend 2 hours in a plane, than 1 day riding a train to get to Florida. I would much rather spend 5 hours riding in a plane instead of a few days riding a train between New York and the West Coast. Train travel still has it's place, but plane travel is a better mode for quick efficient travel.
Mark
#3 West End Jeff
Coincidence? I think not.
Today was chosen as the opening date precisely because it's the 100th anniversary of the first powered flight.
This way, if I were flying from, say, Philly to Birmingham, I would fly to Atlanta and then hop on a high speed train right at the airport to take me the rest of the way, instead of taking a stupid little cramped crop-duster commuter plane.
I'm typing this all because I haven't seen you on this board before, so you may not have read this idea the last 800 times I've posted it...my apologies to those who are reading it for the 800th time!
: )
Mark
Cool. Is this a railfan trip?
on Virgin Atlantic, which in addition to the airline is one of the (innumerable) train operators in Britain.
A train operator which has ruined the Virgin brand name (as if third rate cola and ballooning experiments weren't enough). It's the only operator I've EVER seen advertise a train as being two hours late (okay, it was the Penzance to Aberdeen, but...).
Not specifically, but I'm certainly going to be doing quite a bit of rail riding. I'll try to ride as much of the Tube as possible, though doing the entire system would be too much, the DLR, the Corydon Tramway*, and one or two short mainline rail trips.
* = which looks quite interesting, from the pictures elsewhere on this site.
You'll prbably have the opinion (especially with no RFWs) of "seen one tunnel, seen them all", so there are obvious sections to miss:
- the entire Victoria and Waterloo & City Lines
- the Southern end of the Northern Line
- the North-Eastern end of the Piccadilly Line (okay it eventually gets into the open after half the trains have terminated)
- the Bakerloo Line is useful but dull until you get out to Queen's Park
That probably chops it down to a more manageable size (especially when you realise how expensive it is beyond Moor Park on the Met).
the DLR
THE coolest thing in London! Get on at a terminal to get an RFW seat - it's still something of a novelty over here...
the Croydon Tramway
It has its moments, but I'm not entirely convinced about it to say the least.
and one or two short mainline rail trips.
I personally enjoy main line rail trips the most. You will find this map invaluable for helping to work out what goes where.
The problem with Morden and Cockfosters is that they both take an eternity to get to. Yes, they are the most interesting stations on their respective stretches of line, but it's probably not worth the effort.
The W & C. (Southern's poor imitation of the Underground) was an interesting diversion.
I personally like it. I was bored one day going from Waterloo to Oxford Circus, so I decided to be utterly perverse and ride the Drain and the Central. Waterloo is a kinda cool station with all the columns and the travelator at Bank is quite fun as people wonder whether or not escalator rules apply. The rolling stock is rather unusual, if only for the paint job. Having said all that, the Drain is the sort of line you get round to after all the others.
Crazy round trip idea:
Bank
Drain to Waterloo
SWT to Epsom
#293 to Morden Station
Northern Line to Bank
Perhaps they should let Holden,Junior have a go at Waterloo station now.
Pulling down International would be a good start.
Pennsylvania Airlines: The Standard Airline of the World.
Transit in Lower Manhattan is weak?
Direct Rail-Link... Has he not heard of the (A) Train?
What a waste of money that would be.
The problem is that it is quite finite and is not being spent to reconstruct the WTC and compensate the majority of people who suffered from 9/11. We will wake up the next morning with the hangover of a bare treasury and thousands of 9/11 victims uncompensated, if one quarter of these projects are actually started.
Downtown's basic transportation shortcoming is that the region has outgrown the subway system (PATH included). Downtown could use direct access to commuter railroads not to airports.
With Airtrain coming to Jamaica Station, both can be accomplished by extending the LIRR from Flatbush Terminal.
That isn't a direct rail link; it still requires a tranfer at Howard Beach and a 12 minute ride on AirTrain.
I agree the money is better spent elsewhere.
Ideally, we would have a line that passes through the CBD with a two or three stops and then heads out to the airport. That's not going to happen. The A train makes too many stops to be considered quick. The LIRR only connects to one part of Midtown and Downtown Brooklyn. So, if we want a quick, convenient trip, the LIRR has to go to Lower Manhattan as well. And, it will still not be particularly convenient even after East Side Access, because the commuter rail stations in NYC are places to which you have to haul yourselves. "Carry your luggage to the subway, take the subway to the train station, carry your luggage to the train, take the train to the AirTrain station, carry your luggage to the AirTrain, take the AirTrain, and carry your luggage to the terminal."
As for a one-seat ride, we can probably overcome the passenger tax problem. (AirTrain was funded by an airline ticket tax that can only be spent on the airport and its facilities.) Either we can make a creative argument regarding the extension along LIRR or we can get Congress to pass a bill to allow it.
He's presenting a case based upon the airport but it's something many folks have been suggesting for years.
I don't care what the excuse given is - if the LIRR can reach downtown Bklyn to WTC then that's fine by me!!
They don't bother me as long as they stay off the platforms.
Hehe. And those little critters do make it to the platforms occasionally. About a year ago or so I was waiting for a train at 14th/8th, and a rat made it to the pile of garbage at the end of the platform. The rat left the garbage and started towards one of the stairways. AT the same time a woman had just come down from the mezzanine towards me when she saw the rat. All of a sudden she let out a scream like I never heard before in my life, and ran three steps at a time back to the mezzanine. I was laughing so hard that I almost couldn't breathe. It scared the hell out of the rat too, as he high tailed it to the tracks.
I did see one on the Manhattan Bridge though.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
You're not kidding. Yesterday, I spotted a monster rat in front of Grand Central Terminal. Conditions at the Oyster Bar Restaurant apparently fostered the appearance of this rat.
http://community.webtv.net/hey-paul/MonsterRatInFrontof
I'm sure he'll be coming home well fed after dining in the city and a complimentary ride on the Sea Bits. :)
Every time I think of this client I think of that rat. The only thing that ever came out of this that was positive was that I would occasionally leave their office at noon and take the El down to Wrigley to catch the Cubs. Nothing better than mixing business, railfanning and baseball.
CG
Apparently the Oyster Bar is a favorite destination of Japanese businessmen... raw oysters, libido, etc.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
#3 West End Jeff
Recent observation - A rat with three-quarters of its tail missing (perhaps amputated by a train?) meandering its way up the Uptown C/E Penn Sta. track.
Good Story...Was waiting for an uptown 6 about a month ago and was chatting to a Beantown couple. On the tracks, a rat (nice size, probabaly a 4-5 pounder) apperaed squirming around. The lady didn't notice it at first, saw it, turned to her husband and said "Aaaah! Frank, that's it, that's the last time", then proceeded to go back through the turnstile and up the stairs, her man chasing after her not knowing what happened. Oh well. One less pair of tourists on the subway :-p
Just a matter of perception. Rats do not much exceed one pound in weight.
Only thing I like better than them there rats is some fresh possum killed by my pickup.
2. Valley RxR ("for profit" steam operation at Essex, CT) apparently is laying off it's staff after Christmas until May :-(
3. Trolley museums at Warehouse Point & Branford, CT only canceled their Santa events on the worst of the bad weather days. Both will continue to operate in December:
---- a. Branford, until Dec 21st (Lou from Brooklyn, Arrow III MU & I will be there that last day)
---- b. Warehouse Point until Dec 28th
I can attest to that. Seems like only the Airport Terminal Loop route was running smoothly. The other two routes had problems and gaps in service.
This is just the larceny part. Far more money is wasted by selecting only high-priced solutions and contractors.
So, you know about selecting contractors, eh? I'll trust you with selecting contractors that bid-low, overrun-high, and use shoddy materials and workmanship.
So your last post makes that clear how? Of course I understand what you're trying to point out, but some people on this board might not, and some people might then proceed to bash MTA suggesting that they are incompetent, and all funding to public transit should be cut because they don't want to pay for inefficient public enterprises. If you understand the complexity of the problem, explain it. It's posts like your last posts that breed these harebrained, stupid, shallow anti-transit sentiments. You don't want to be a weapon against the MTA, do you?
AEM7
Politics?
Are we talking about selecting contractors who would charge mroe to the gov't than any other company because of personal connections to the higher ups, or because of campagain "contributions"?
Or is the philly mayor the only one who still does this kind of grafting, I hope the future trial will be interesting.
The thing that did this plumber in is that he was too obvcious in his spending.
Maybe they should, although usually without detailed contract terms it is very hard to evaluate the value-for-money component of the contract. This should apply to all contracts except design contracts (which are cost-plus, and experience based, and not lowest-cost).
AEM7
David
That's not a bad doctrine, if it is universally applied. I suppose the military would be the first agency to see its funding dry up followed by the Federal Highway Administration and the Agriculture Department.
The problem is that the public transit industry has no incentive to economize without a real threat of imminent bankruptcy. (I'll wait to see what happens to Amtrak, before deciding whether this is a sufficient condition.) The last major transit project I can think of that included the concept of return on investment as a design criterion was the PCC car. The challenge of the public transit industry should be how to contain and reduce costs, not how to find new funding sources to cover skyrocketing expenses.
I disagree. Fully-allocated costing, while it is an intellectual concept that I generally like, is not something that can be universally applied to all policy situations. For example, military spending in strict economic terms would be justified by the expected cost of an invasion multipled by its risk. It is exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, to price that risk. Some may argue that invasion is not a bad thing; others may argue that invasion risk is so low that the spending ought to be zero. But there are no hard analytical models that can spit out those numbers. So if you opened up the Army to full economic costing (and/or fully competitive market), you'll end up with an Army contractor that prices the risks very low, only to go bankrupt in the event of an invasion.
That aside, you are also forgetting the U.S. military spending resulted in many civil developments that would otherwise not have happened: nationwide air traffic control, Boeing 747, Global Positioning System, interstate expressways, the internet, to mention a few. Perhaps not cost effective, but I would rather be with the internet than without it. And if you think this research could have been done by risk-taking private sector financiers, you're very naive.
The problem is that the public transit industry has no incentive to economize without a real threat of imminent bankruptcy.
In most cases, it is impossible to economize without suffering a detriment in service.
Usually, "economize" means to screw labor. "Economization" of the truckload carrier industry since the deregulation has mainly been achieved by screwing labor, and several books have been written on this subject. For example, Sweatshops on Wheels: Winners and Losers in Trucking Deregulation
The challenge of the public transit industry should be how to contain and reduce costs, not how to find new funding sources to cover skyrocketing expenses.
The challenge of the public transit industry should be how to educate the public on what it takes to provide the service that the public expects, and how to demonstrate that no matter how you hide it, cutting budgets results in economic efficiency and service degradation, but most of the savings attained as a result of service degradation and not economic efficiency.
AEM7
There was no money to reward those who keep the city moving 24-7, but there was money to waste like this. Pouring millions into 2 Broadway and hiring $500-an-hour lawyers while closing token booths and cutting elevator operators.
And just think. The fare STILL may go up YET AGAIN.
Also, the yellow guard rail and the 3rd rail covers are in place across the entire span. The only thing left may be the yellow track walkways. The bike/foot path still needs the chain link fencing installed. It doesn't look like the wrought iron fence is going to be installed on the track side as it was on the south side of the bridge. I'm not sure if there was ever a fence there as there was never a walkway.
I don't know why they're putting in another bike/footpath. The existing one is never even remotely crowded (unlike the Brooklyn Bridge), and there's safety in (moderate) numbers.
I'd like to walk over one side and then the other, and will probably try it, though I'll probably be spit on by the Transportation Alternatives bike Nazi's if I try it.
NO!
Both the Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges had two walkways. The MB north side walkway was closed in 1942 by order of the War Department to prevent foreign spies from photographing the Brooklyn Navy Yard.
There's the 7 mezzanine and the N/R mezzanine... both which are also Qnsbound..
They used long trains only during rush hours. Train length was cut during off peak hours, when long trains were not required.
The used two conductors for long trains. I believe on the IRT, one was between cars 2 and 3 and the other between 9 and 10. This way they could open 7, 8, 9 and 10 car lengths. It also permitted direct access at Bowling Green to the Shuttle platform from the front of the express.
In those days conductors were supposed to know the difference between front and back as well as left and right.
Thanks, I never knew that 145th was on the road to becoming another 18th St or 91st Street. I've only been to 145th St once, and it was over 10 years ago. Is the 5 car length original, or was it extended at some point (like the 10's, 30's or 50's when many original IRT stations were altered). What I am asking, is it a pure original IRT station (like 18th would still be if it was still open)?
-- Ed Sachs
The lower Lexington and upper 7th Ave. lines were part of the original 1904 subway, and were built to accommodate only 5 car local trains.
Both the east and west side lines ran local trains of no more than 5 cars through at least 1950. The Lexington Ave. line started running longer local trains in the early 1950s, and the west side line in the late 1950s. So -- prior to the late 1950s, the platform extensions for the local stations between Times Square and 96th St. weren't required, and all of these platforms (except for 91st St, which was closed) were extended at that time.
-- Ed Sachs
My suggestion centers around the proximity of the J/Z line tracks to the LIRR mainline tracks west of Jamaica. As every LIRR rider familiar with the area knows, the J/Z tracks approach the mainline tracks west of Jamaica before curving east and heading into the Archer Avenue tunnel. Before the curve, the elevated J/Z tracks and the mainline tracks are at approximately the same height. The curve ends into a short stretch of depressed trackage that runs nearly parallel with the LIRR mainline tracks.
As everyone also knows, the J/Z provide a direct connection from the Jamaica area to downtown Manhattan, including Chambers, Fulton and Broad Streets.
Given this fortuitous orientation of the two lines, here's my suggestion. Build a connection from the J/Z tracks before the curve (that is, from the original BMT trackage) to the mainline tracks (a flying junction would be ideal) and allow specially designated "Downtown" subway trains to travel from the J/Z line directly to the LIRR Jamaica station. The subway trains would terminate there and passengers could then switch to their connecting LIRR trains.
To speed travel on the J/Z trackage, the "Downtown" trains would run express as much as possible on the J/Z line. Initially, a third, middle track could be laid on the portion of the line that runs between 121st Street and Cypress Hills. As we all know, there is a provision for a middle track on the structure and at least some evidence that a track once existed there. Use of the middle track could be fashioned after the (7) model - trains would run in peak directions (downtown in AM rush hours and Jamaica bound in PM rush hours). Trains would then make local stops between Crescent Street and Eastern Parkway (this is unavoidable) and resume its express run after Eastern Parkway. There would be just two Brooklyn stops after that - Myrtle Avenue and Marcy Avenue. The train would make regular stops after the Willie B and terminate at Broad Street.
I feel that since most of the infrastructure already exists, implementing this plan would not be as prohibitively expensive as digging new tunnels. It also would not disrupt service in existing tunnels, such as running cars through the A/C tunnel, as has been suggested.
I know there are a few shortcoming in this plan. First, it doesn't provide a single-seat ride downtown, but then again, neither does the LIRR/AirTrain system. It also would not be a lot faster in terms of time spent than simply transferring to the J/Z trains downstairs at LIRR/Jamaica. But it would be somewhat faster and eliminate the need for downtown passengers to have to travel all the way to Penn Station or Flatbush Avenue and then boarding subway trains at those destinations. Additionally, I know that the LIRR runs under FRA regulations and the subway does not, but given the short distance the subway trains would have to travel between the connection and LIRR/Jamaica, I'm sure something could be worked out.
As a daily LIRR rider who works downtown and has to change for the subway daily at either Flatbush or Penn Station, I would welcome a third choice in the form of the above, especially if it could be a cross-platform transfer.
Thoughts?
I'll leave it to SubTalk old timey experts to direct you to more on-line information on the former Chestnut Street BMT/BRT-LIRR connection. There's a brief description of it in Herbert George's book about the Rockaway Beach Branch LIRR, "Change At Ozone Park".
I do not like the crescent street curves. That is the SLOWEST part of the whole route.
If an express service is required, they could simply blast by the unwanted stops, since the loadins and crowding of these platforms ought not to cause a problem.
My solution for the (J) (JJ) service is found on my web site.
Elias
Arti
I was going to ask what the (L) for?
But actually your idea has merit. Dos the (L) north of BJ need more traffic than south of BJ? Probably.
Does the Fulton-Rockaway Blvd spur need more service. Probably not.
Enough to make it worth building a coneection at the already over-complicated BJ complex? Probably not.
But... What If...
What if that Fulton-Rockaway line were to be extended along Rockaway Blvd ro join the Rockaway line? THAT WOULD provide nice service to the Airport. Put some R-163s on that line (the cars with luggage racks) and you got yourself a nice airport service.
As well as sending the (JJ) train to the Rockaways, giving the (A) full time service up Lefferts (and it new extention to Hillside Avenue via Supthin Blvd.
Then the (E) (8th Avenue Express) becomes the Local along Fulton Street, and the (C) (8th Avenue Local) Becomes the Culver Express to Kings Highwya.
Looks like a plan to me, even if it is somnewhat convoluted.
: ) Elais
For the Lawnguylanders, I suggest hooking the LIRR tracks into the Montigue Street tunnel in Downtown Brooklyn, and running a super shuttle up the Nassau Loop -- perhaps as the back side of the J/Z. Unlike the J/Z, however, this super-shuttle would not provide a free transfer to other NYCT services, buses or subways. Thus it would be used primarily by LIRR and Airtrain riders, though bus transferees could use it if they were willing to pay a double fare.
You could run 12 "Z" express trains per hour at rush hour on your third track, along with the six J locals and six M trains, for city residents. The six Js and 12 Z's would run as super-shuttles on Atlantic Avenue, merging with the W and the R (which would run on 4th Avenue) past Court Street station (the J/Z and R/W trains would share no stations, thus limiting the dwell time constraint on capacity). That's 36 trains per hour from Jamaica to Downtown, with 30 of them expresses.
It wasn't that bad of a movie at least. :)
Also, I think, someone posted about 2-3 pics of the moneytrain 2-3 months back on here. I'm not sure where he had the pictures stored at.
Does anyone know how often tokens had to be moved in the past? (Apart from the obvious restocking/retiring exercises)
The Subway Buffs guide to the movie is here.
Anyways, caught a CAF consist from Georgia Avenue to Greenbelt, then back to Gallery Place... left GA Ave about 3:36 PM... I wonder where Oren was... Whole ride through, I was thinking I MIGHT run across any of the DC area Subtalkers, and they wouldn't even know it was me.
Anyways, got off at Gallery Place, and saw the most HIDEOUS sight I've ever witnessed. Sadly, I didn't bring my camera(s), as one needs batteries, and the other's just... shot for the moment. However, the hideous placard upon the lower level walls was enough to make my eyes burn.
"Green Line to Branch Avenue via Anacostia" - Fine. Mention of the former terminal, that gives me hope that they'll start doing short-turn trips there or Southern Avenue, running them to U Street or Fort Totten.
"Yellow Line to Huntington via Ronald Reagan National Airport" - BAD!!! Bad Metro, bad! No biscuit. WHY THAT place of all possible? Pentagon? Crystal City? Alexandria? No, they pick the airport. Not that I mind the airport itself, but... That name... I hope they didn't botch the Blue Line elsewhere.
The signs for the other direction weren't worth the mention.
Mt Vernon Sq has FINALLY removed all evidence of its former name (Mt Vernon Sq-UDC). NOW, I can refer to it as Mt Vernon Sq-7th Street Convention Center with no qualms. The operators are fine leaving the "7th Street" part out. The boards no longer call the Yellow trains northbound as Mt Vernon Sq, now it's "Mt Vernon/Conv Ctr"... why? UDC wasn't part of the initial announcement, why change it now? Mind you, the trains still go by simply "Mt Vernon Sq", likely because nothing more will fit.
Upon arrival at Gallery Place, I waited for the Grosvenor train to leave, and took the next Red Line to Shady Grove... haven't been there since 1999, while I generally hit Branch Avenue, Silver Spring, Glenmont, any of the Orange Line, and Franconia-Springfield every trip (Well, Branch Ave since it opened, before that, I'd do either ALL of the Orange, or add in Addison Road and Huntington). Next trip, I'm going to do them ALL, and that will mean a little "planting" of myself here and there to just watch them come and go... and I'll be eating lunch at Pentagon City Mall, if anyone's interested... I'll let ya know when I go.
Stayed on the same train FROM Shady Grove, but went to the front. YAY! Rohrs! Mind you, I fell asleep going up there, so it was too dark to see out the sides coming back. Wonder if Oren was at Grosvenor... yes, the bridges over I-495/I-270 are awesome. Saw the missing arch vault at Farragut North, and the lone faregate at Tenleytown-AU. FROM the train... I had to be back at the hospital by 6:45. Had I known what else would have happened there, I could have come back at 9:00 PM and not missed anything but some drain time for the batteries of my GameBoy Advance.
Anyways, jumped off at Metro Center, snagged some free maps, and got on a Blue Line to Stadium-Armory. YES,the train went past there, but I didn't. I wanted to see the signs for the arriving train's destination at the end of the platform... they didn't seem to be working, and are a bit smaller than I remember... Or was that at Rosslyn they were about two feet tall? Eh, they were brighter and working at L'Enfant Plaza, which is where I went next. After waiting for an Orange Line going west to get there. Didn't have time to poke around FT/C, but wanted to. Had to go, 'twas about 6:23 when I hit L'Enfant Plaza.
Took the next Green Line up to Columbia Heights, just so I could see Archives-Navy Mem'l along the way... never touched a Yellow train the whole trip... I'll make up for it next time. Didn't make Fran-Spring, NCR, Vienna/Fairfax-GMU, Adison Road, Silver Spring/Glenmont (I ALWAYS hit Forest Glen to just be "deep undercover... and underground"), or Branch Avenue either. Commended the T/O on my Greenbelt-Gallery Place, Shady Grove-Metro Center, and L'Enfant Plaza-Columbia Heights trips on how well they represent WMATA... they deserve a bonus for being so friendly. Took the H2 back to Washington Hospital to wait with the family... short trip, but nice... arrived in the waiting room at 6:55. Not bad. The H2 had a "Van Ness-UDC Sta" sign, but was going EAST. Does Metrobus have any New Flyer made buses? They've got so many similar buses to SEPTA... hard to believe, but I think WMATA and SEPTA are QUITE in each other's league, especially after the trip I'd made yesterday. Similar passnger counts, similar service frequencies. 70/71 there=17/33/48 here. WMATA's just more strict on cleanliness and policy, while SEPTA focuses more on equipment and information... mix their qualities, and they'd be the best in this business.
But WMATA's getting sloppy... who the hell was that SPITTING ON THE TRACKS at Georia Ave-Petworth? Who had the PuPu Platter in Chinatown, and tossed the container under the opposite platform? Cigarette butts and soda cans under the third rail at Stadium-Armory? Someone SMOKING at Greenbelt? Tsk tsk, no dessert for YOU, WMATA. You've been getting lazy. I've seen times where 8th Street on the MFL was cleaner than Stadium-Armory was when i was there.
Oh, correct me if I'm wrong, but the wall-mounted sings depicting were the arriving trai will go are only located at King Street, Rosslyn, Stadium-Armory, and L'Enfant Plaza, correct? Why not Pentagon?
Another point. The platform signs work a bit better now. Count down the minutes, then "approaching" when it leaves the next station up, and "arriving" as it gets close. I didn't have time to see how it works at close stations like Judiciary Sq/Gallery Pl-Chinatown/Metro Center on the Red Line... next time, though...
Interior-wise, the Flyers are somewhat similar, except WMATA's interior signs does not tell you the route, time and date like the ones at SEPTA.
Yes, WMATA has New Flyers.
Here's what time's I'm sure of:
3:37 - Leave Georgia Ave-Petworth
4:22 - passed Georgia Ave again.
5:02 - Where was I? I dunno.
5:53 - Metro Center
6:00 - Federal Center SW
6:13 - Stadium-Armory
6:23 - Leave L'Enfant Plaza
My Red train was mostly Bredas. The Front pair leaving Shady Grove was Rohrs, though I was more interested in the track layout and station appearance than the car numbers... But I recall a number 8 among the numbers on the Rohr car I was in... or was it the one behind me? I walked in one, then out, then into the front. But I knew it was a Rohr by the silver handles on the seats, as opposed to brown on the Bredas
Oh, and the Green Line had only two Breda consists the whole time I was on it... guess DC now stands for "Damn CAFs", 'cause I was on two, and saw about nine more... but only on Green; I didn't see a CAF on anything else (and ESPECIALLY not Red).
Six-car tains on Red, Green, and Orange. Four on Yellow (natch) and BLUE (What the hell???) Doesn't Blue need six-car consists? Considering I nearly got trampled getting off the train, yes. Where was I trampled? Stadium-Armory.
They do have them at Pentagon, but their placement is somewhat unusual compared to how the others' are. Pretend for a moment that this picture is of Pentagon Station (this picture is of Rosslyn, but for our purposes it doesn't matter). The flashing signs are actually along the arch on the upper level, mounted on the lowest row of "waffles" that's shadowed in this picture (second row up from the top of the train). I think there's two of them along that row. I believe there's also something at the end of the outbound-end of the station.
Basically, if you're standing on the upper-level platform at Pentagon, look UP.
Ben F. Schumin :-)
I believe there's also something at the end of the outbound-end of the station.
Oh... yeah, that's what I meant... THOSE signs. I assume that sentence refers to Rosslyn... Pentagon doesn't need them on the OUTBOUND end.
Also, considering the new signs mounted on the patform (see WAY in the distance of that photo) are predated by the end wall signs, I wonder why they only have them at the END transfer points. You don't see them at Crystal City, Federal Triangle, Gallery Pl-Chinatown, etc... I'm guessing WMATA figured that it's of little consequence between end transfer points (like along the original Blue/Orange alignment after Ballston opened, between Rosslyn and Stadium-Armory), since if you get on the wrong train, you can just get off before you would end up on the wrong line... but what if someone gets on at Federal Center SW and goes to sleep... and wakes up in Franconia-Springfield when they WANTED Virginia Sq-GMU... I know it's no deal now with the new sign boards, but before they installed them...
I also wonder... did WMATA have to change the signs as new stations opened? Or did they just stick something over the sign so the green ones said "Anacostia" until Branch Avenue opened? Same for the Blue.
Oh, and an interesting point...
Breda/Rohr side sign: "BRANCH AVE"
CAF sign: "BRANCH AVENUE"
I assume the CAFs and rehabbed Bredas don't use individual character spaces, but just a clear field for text (like the bus signs do, at least those on the New Flyers and on SEPTA's NABI and 60-foot Neoplans). The CAF signs rock. The Breda/Rohr signs need fixing. They're getting so old, the color stripes are fading. With the way they've directed the color scheme for flipdot signs, pretty soon, every Breda consist is going to be the Yellow Line...
Speaking of Rohrs... they've got shorter sign spaces, meant for the old rollsigns, and not long enough for the flipdot signs at times... WMATA didn't catch this?
I'll be back pretty soon.
As far as the Rohr signs... yes, the space count is the same... the window panels along the top side of the cars that the sign is placed in to be viewed by passengers on the platform is shorter on the Rohrs than on the Bredas... but that's because they needed to have a window for rollsigns anyway. If I'm not mistaken, the Breda and CAF cars have the sign built into the car, instead of placed in a space for it. Rohr cars weren't built for flipdot/LED signs, and I'm surprised WMATA hasn't figured that out yet and extended the windows for the signs to fit entirely... or at least the display on them to fit entirely.
I hope the next cars WMATA orders have FORWARD-FACING front seats. I'd like a railfan window similar to that of the M4 cars up here.
How did you do that green stripe there?
What are you referring to there?
The current setup works fine, you don't need to see the last letter to figure out where the train is going. Except on the Red Line and some limited exceptions on the Orange Line, all trains serve all stations on the line.
The Rohr flipdots occupy one of the former roll sign locations. The other roll sign is now the exterior speaker and that panel used to say "metrorail" before the speakers were installed.
The 6000 Series cars will have a different interior layout but the railfan seat remains the same AFAIK. Sorry.
I'm going out of town tomorrow, if you want to continue this discussion, I suggest e-mailing me as well as posting here. I doubt when I get home I'm going to want to hunt all the way through messages from Thursday and Friday to find a reply to this post.
E-mail to o_transit_page_webmstr@hotmail.com, not the address I've hyperlinked in my posts.
This is annoying. Somehow it's acceptable that there is an airport named after John F. Kennedy, but yet when there's an airport named after Ronald Reagan, everyone is up in arms.
Do I sound bitter over it? Yup!!
Mark
Your bitterness is misplaced.
Debt is not always a negative. People simply don't understand that.
who is the last republican who did not have an economic desaster? probably Nixon.
He's the last Republican TO have an economic disaster. His idiotic price controls kick-started the increasingly oppressive "stag-flation" (inflation without economic expansion) which characterized the 1970's. Reagan oversaw the largest peacetime economic expansion in this country's history (although recent growth is challenging that position), all with minimal inflationary effects.
While Reagan did have a overall positive effect on employment, during his first term unemployment skyrocketed to one of the highest unemployment rates ever.
Yes, in 1982, a year of deep recession, a time before the tax cuts Reagan implimented could have the positive economic effects it would later have. It's interesting that Bush II's tax cuts are having a similar effect.
Also, why does it seem like everyone has forgotten the fact that Reagan installed Hussein, Noriega, and Bin Laden
Hussein was already in power by 1981. Bin Laden came out of the Mujahadeen movement we used to thwart the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980's. We didn't create these monsters, but we did exploit them for our own personal foreign policy needs. Nobody has ever denied that.
You may not agree with his politics, but that's no reason to be calling him evil. Even if he were evil, I can think of much better examples of "evil" figures in American history, so there's no way he's the most evil.
Do you have any proof that he ever said the that at all. It is fair to criticize Reagan's handling of AIDS but to say as you have that he did so out of bigotry when you have no proof what so ever is wrong. Below is a link to a column that refutes your point much better than I can.
click here
In fairness, though, I think that Reagan made a mistake firing the air traffic controllers during his administration. For that reason I think that naming an airport after him is somewhat hypocritical. Sort of like naming a rape crisis center after a serial rapist.
I do take issue with the term evil, though. Conservative - most definitely but I hardly think he began the destruction of the working class. He did call for the elimination of the Berlin wall. He did try to destroy the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union is gone. The Berlin wall is gone but our 'working class' is doing better than ever.
Because it's cheaper that way. Basically it's the effect of immigration controls - you don't let them come into your country to work, so your companies move abroad to employ them. Countries like Britain and America are strangling their own economies. The result is the absence of a real working class, leaving the nation divided between a middle class and an underclass. I, for one, do not want where that leads.
The alternative is of course increased immigration (a seemingly losing prospect in any democratic society, as that which is becoming an underclass will oppose it out of whipped-up fear of the alien and that which can be seen as a middle class fears immigration may impact on their otium). This however will require large programmes of building social housing and public transport (not something that's exactly popular these days either).
At uneconomic rates of pay.
Corporations need to be STOPPED from dismantling any more of our BIRTHRIGHT. TREASONOUS corporations who rape America need to lose the PRIVILEGE of doing business in America Managers who are agressive in hurting this country should not be allowed to perform other than manual labor.
Sounds quite similar to how Mugabe wrecked Rhodesia and its economy.
True americans who work to protect American union jobs are fighting to see that the reagan's replacement is as cutting edge for it's time as the reagan is for today.
So true Americans will screw their country over for personal gain? That's great - are you sure that's the same country Martin Luther King was from?
Unfortunately the right wing wants to line it's pockets now with as much loot as possible and doesn't give a hoot for America's future.
You have that wrong - it's not just the right wing. It's the left too, mainly unions and NIMBYs.
Let's blame Reagan for things he deserves to be blamed for. No Soviet Union. No Cold War. I can't inderstand why the democrats have such a low opinion of the former Republican hero. Frankly, I don't even believe that John Hinkley was Reagan's fault. I'm sure it was that prissy Jodie Foster :)
Mark
You're 100% right about that. American farmers get major production subsidies while African farmers who try to export to the US face import duties.
I do have problems with US farming corporations having excellent profits at the expense of African farmers living in a state of near starvation. It's not as though if the subsidies went away African farmers would be a threat to the continued existence of US farms.
In any case, the question was whether trade laws were fair, and the answer is no, they are not. They contribute extensively to the misery of Africa.
By the way, I don't blame either Bush for this. It's been going on a long time. And the Europeans are even more guilty than the US.
It's not my intent to trivialize the plight of any poor people, anywhere but I don't understand that comment. If a farmer is living in a state of near starvation, then what does he have to sell in other countries? Historically, farmers raised crops for their families, bartered with other farmers and eventually sold crops on the open market.
As for subsidies, I seem to remember parity price supports for farmers back as far as Kennedy. Then farmers were paid not to produce milk or grow tobacco.
It's not my intent to trivialize the plight of any poor people... If a farmer is living in a state of near starvation, then what does he have to sell in other countries?
The farmland in Africa are actually quite difficult to farm -- similar to farmlands in Nebraska and the Dakotas. Because of decades of grain overproduction, U.S. Dept of Agriculture has actually been cutting farming subsidies and it has finally began to have an effect -- the Dakotas are depopulating as it became no longer economic to farm there. When you compare the quality of farmland in say, Iowa, and the kind of technologies that are available to farm it, versus the quality of farmland in Africa, and the technologies available there, of course the African farmers starve. They could go back to farming without using all the expensive breed of crops and all the fertilizers, but they would also starve -- because the land is inherently unproductive without the fertliziers etc. Immigration regulations has limited their ability to move elsewhere, so they are stuck with the unproductive farmland.
Ya, it's a problem. But it's their problem, and not ours. There's probably ways they can make their farms go (or if not, they could move around and find more productive lands -- surely these exist in Africa somewhere?) With the relatively few border controls and governmental structure in that part of the world, they could afford to be a lot more imaginative than they have been -- instead of whining that the large companies are sucking all the profits out of there.
AEM7
Google Africa + economist + agricultural + import + duties and you will see many distinguished people who claim it's a problem partly due to the policies of the west.
Certainly African g