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How fast could they go (as in speed mph)?
How different was the ride from the R1/9's?
Were they noisier or quieter than the R1/9's?
Oops, I forgot to post it!! Here it is:
wayne
Apparently somebody got a deal on spreckled paint after the Navy rejected it as the new could for its ships ;-)
What navy would ever use speckled green paint for its ships, maybe the Irish Navy?
Seriously though I thought that the speckled green paint was the result of that so-called rebuilding which was really more of an emasculation of those great cars.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Say what!?!?!?!
Actually I don't mind her politics, I think she's doing a good job, but you have to admit, not much to look at. Braces would help 200%, if she ever runs for president I hope she sees an orthadontist. And those freckles, well...
:)
The IRT had once basic design which began with the Composites and ran right up through the Lo-V's. There were some modifications of course and there were two notible exceptions;the Deckroofs and the World's Fair cars. Make no mistake about it all the IRT cars were speedsters.
The Standards typified the BMT to anyone who rode them. They served nearly all the lines and gave good solid performance. They were somewhat slower than the IRT cars but very little short of a Force 10 Gale would stop them.
The R 1-9's of course were the IND standard-bearers and they were noisy but fast. They would never win a beauty pageant but gave good service throughout there lifetimes.
They say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. The IRT design was coplied by the LIRR,Philly's Market Street cars and even London Transport. (The Q-23's I believe.)
The BMT design was copied by the Broad Street Standards and the SIRT MUE-1's.
I don't know if anyone copied the R 1-9 design.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
The IRT had once basic design which began with the Composites and ran right up through the Lo-V's. There were some modifications of course and there were two notible exceptions;the Deckroofs and the World's Fair cars. Make no mistake about it all the IRT cars were speedsters.
The Standards typified the BMT to anyone who rode them. They served nearly all the lines and gave good solid performance. They were somewhat slower than the IRT cars but very little short of a Force 10 Gale would stop them.
The R 1-9's of course were the IND standard-bearers and they were noisy but fast. They would never win a beauty pageant but gave good service throughout there lifetimes.
They say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. The IRT design was coplied by the LIRR,Philly's Market Street cars and even London Transport. (The Q-23's I believe.)
The BMT design was copied by the Broad Street Standards and the SIRT MUE-1's.
I don't know if anyone copied the R 1-9 design.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I saw a picture of a British Transportation museum with a picture of a subway car that looked like an R1-9 but was more rounded off. Perhaps some SubTalkers across the pond may know of this museum.
Bill "Newkirk"
There was a race of cars that ran on the Metropolitan line called F stock (of 1920 vintage) that were strange-looking with oval portholes in front and a roofline somewhat resembling the first group of BMT standards. They also featured the same forest of poles and vinylette seats, although they ran along the wall rather than in the Standards' family arrangement. No fans but very fancy lights inside.
wayne
The first electric trains on the District Line, around 1903-04, were particularly American-style because they came when the more or less bankrupt Metropolitan District Railway Company had just been taken over by American interests. These trains first ran on the then-new Ealing and South Harrow branch of the District (now the Acton Town to Rayners Lane section of the Piccadilly Line), which was the first part of the District's system to be electrified and was used as a test-bed for the new electric stock.
I remember the Fs, they were still around when my London railfanning days began in the mid-1950s. Heaven knows why the drivers were given *round* (well, oval to be strictly correct) windows to look out of!
LIRR engineers had round windows to look out of on MU's too:
CC: Several classes of London Surface Stock bore more than a passing resemblance to the IRT design. Classes B through F come to mind. The 1923 G Stock however did have a clerestory roof and flat ends which gave it somewhat of an IND look.
Larry,RedbirdR33
These were part of the George Gibbs/Dr. Lewis V. Stillwell cars.
The Boston "Cambridge" 0600s were first in 1912. Also don't forget the H&M "Black cars".
There was an excellant article in Electric Lines "The Making of a Standard" by Paul I. Cohen
How fast could they go (as in speed mph)?
50 Balancing, 55 Motor. Same as most "Redbird" equipment. They didn't accelerate as fast as recent equipment and "coast" orders were in force, so overall they seemed slower.
How different was the ride from the R1/9's?
More comfortable.
Were they noisier or quieter than the R1/9's?
Quitier, especially inside.
'splain, Lucy.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
The private companies took it to even more dizzying heights of analtude ... they issued COASTING keys and a METER in the cab. Shown to the left is a Coasting Clock Key, courtesy of The Joe Korner. Each motorman was issued a number stamp key. At the beginning of each trip he would insert the key into the coasting clock and turn it. It would imprint the key number on the power recorder tape. If on the trip, less power was used than the standard, the motorman would get a bonus in his paycheck. I believe these were used on both the BMT and IRT systems.
And as far as nostalgic metal plates along the way, I found it amusing when I *still* spotted T's along the steelwork - they'd promised those would be phased out in the early 70's and they're still out there. Heh.
Of course I realize sense of speed is subjective, but I rode SMEEs and older equipment on the same runs, and the top speeds seemed always comparable.
As to the power = balancing speed analogy, a Volkswagen Beetle and a Corvette will both reach 70, but the 'Vette will do it a lot faster...
A curiosity to me is that Standards seemed much more nimble performers than Triplexes, though the Triplexes developed about 40% more horsepower vs. only about a 10% increase in weight--it's one reason I think that the Triplexes were geared or wired differently, for whatever reason.
The Sansone book doesn't list the gear ratios for the AB or D
types. Maybe I can find that info elsewhere. If the R-9 is
10,000 pounds lighter than a Standard and has 35% more motor
HP, then it stands to reason that either it would beat the Standard
in acceleration, top end, or both.
accel proportional to H*G/W
bal speed proportional to H/(G*W)
where H is horsepower, G is the gear reduction, W is the weight.
Some move sway side-to-side on their truck bolsters (rocking), some left-and-right on their center points (nosing) or up-and-down end-to-end (galloping). Standards had a sort of pleasant oscillating motion which was not exactlly like any of the above. If you sat in the middle of the car and sighted out the front window on an outdoor right-of-way you could see it.
Speaking of storm doors, does anyone else remember riding on a BMT standard whose front storm door on the lead motor had a 2x6 jammed diagonally against the door handle to keep it shut? I saw that once or twice.
2 X 6 AKA "shoe paddle" or "shoe slipper"
Yes, I remember a few Standards with the old paddle stuck there preventing the storm door from flying open.
I also remember when boarding a Standard at a terminal awaiting for the train to leave and using my house key to move the storm window latch one notch at a time to fully open it. Some of those windows had their brass latches bent up with pliers to thwart opening and making railfans happy. I circumvented that many times !
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, I recall that. A feature of the Standards was that the storm doors could be opened, closed and locked remotely, and sometimes the locking didn't quite stick on the end doors...
Don't you mean thundered?
Want to hear something funny? During the two years when I rode on the standards evry Saturday, I don't ever, ever remember seeing the conductor work one of the button consoles. By sheer coincidence I must have never been in the same car. He must have been in the second car on Brooklyn-bound trains while we were usually in the third or fourth car. Heading back to Manhattan, we always rode in the first car.
Some of the A units had working door controls, allowing them to be used for two-car trains on some shuttle runs. After the 1950s rebuild, some of the As were rebuilt as two-car sets, but I believe that none of these had working door controls.
Additional note -- the first Standards delivered in 1915 were equipped for a conductor in each car. Multiple unit door control came later.
-- Ed Sachs
When the B & BX three car sets were created, the door controls of the end cars were deactivated, but the door control panels were left in place. On three car sets the doors could only be opened from the panel in the center car.
Here is a typical six car train.
N2390-2391-2392-2414-4007-2415S.
In normal operation, when the train was going north, the T/O would be in 2390, and the C/R would operate all doors from 4007. When the train was going south, the T/O would be in 2415, and the C/R would operate all doors from 2391.
As far as I know, all A units (single cars) maintained active door controls for their entire service life.
-- Ed Sachs
On the Triplexes the conductor was between the 1st and 2nd units and controlled those two and the guard was between the 3rd and 4th and controlled those two.
The difference in the '50s in nomenclature between eastern and southern may have been that wood cars remained in mainline service there longer, so there was a differentiation of "woods" and "steels". Southern division also had Triplexes, and Eastern didn't.
Some of those shots were interesting.
And thank you for the compliment.
I also had my film camera handy, but the roll of film needed to be changed.
in this picture?
John
Geek, Nerd, Wacko, Escaped Inmate, Dolt, Hostage, Nutjob, Future Senator.
THAT insult was uncalled for!
I SAY NO MORE ON THIS.
>>>>>>>>AFTER READING YOUR POST, YOU ARE THE WORST FORM OF SWINE ON THIS EARTH
Sheet, I've been called worse. I figured that you would've said to me that my Mother was a hamster and my Father smelled like elderberries. You know, something with oomph. But that's ok, you'll get better in the insult department I'm sure.
>>>>>>>>>I TOOK THIS GROUP PHOTO BECAUSE I WANTED TO FOR THE FUN AND TO SHOW TO OTHER SUBTALKERS THAT WE HAD A GREAT TIME
Well heck, don't let ME stop you. Remember, I go on these MoD trips too and I was never a party pooper on those trips.
>>>>>>>>>YOU DEGRADED TO THE LOWEST FORM OF HUMANITY ON EARTH
You're absolutely right, and I apologize. I never should have called anyone a Future Senator. That was truly below the belt.
>>>>>>>>>YOU ALSO FORGOT THAT AT LEAST THREE (3) OF THE PEOPLE IN THE PAIR OF GROUP PHOTOS (INCLUDING THE PERSON WHO TOOK THE PICTURES WHO IS THE SAME PERSON TYPING THIS POST TO YOU) DID THE NOT-SO-IMPOSSIBLE OF SPENDING 34.5 HOURS VISITING ALL OPEN SUBWAY STATIONS WITHOUT LEAVING THE SYSTEM. WE SLEPT, BREATHED, LIVED, ATE, BRUSHED OUR TEETH, AND IN THE END, SMELLED THE SUBWAY SYSTEM AND WE ARE PROUD OF OUR EFFORTS
Well good for you. I have absolutely no idea as to how that's going to look on your résumé though.
>>>>>>>>>>DID YOU PERFORM THIS FEAT? NO; SO SHUT THE F*** UP
And I never will either. I dunno, usually when I think about doing something at 2 am, it ususlly has something to with either being in an amorous mode with one of the female persuasion, or waking up to take a pee. But hey, if subways are your thing, then more power to you.
>>>>>>>>>>THOSE PEOPLE WHO YOU SEE IN THE GROUP PHOTO ARE HUMAN BEINGS JUST LIKE YOU SO I THINK YOU SHOULD PUBLICLY APOLOGIZE ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD FOR YOU COLD, CALLOUS, STUPID REMARKS
As the majority of you know, I always joke around on this board. So 99% of you already know that when I type things, it's always tongue in cheek. Never serious, unless it's a direct question or something within that realm.
So for any of you that were in the picture that possibly took it the wrong way, then I sincerely apologize.
Then again, Kool D never has had a sense of humor, so I pretty much expected this post from him before he even posted it. I mean, if someone can get all bent up out of shape over CC LOCAL mentioning that he passes gas..............
CC Local passes gas????
"Eeeeeewwww! STINKY!"
---from Scary Movie
No, I've never seen the movie, but I've seen the scene above many times in the commercials and the trailer, of which I have a copy.
Unlike you, I NEVER EVER TO ANYONE called their parents a bad name, NOT EVER. So I never think like you on that score because I honor my parents because it's the right thing to do. So if I respect my parents, so do I everyone else I meet and talk and NEVER call their parents by any derogatory names.
Well heck, don't let ME stop you. Remember, I go on these MoD trips too and I was never a party pooper on those trips.
And you have proven to RIPTA42HopeTunnel, BMTman, and Mr. T (Thurston) how much an asshole you are BEFORE I put my two cents on this matter.
You're absolutely right, and I apologize. I never should have called anyone a Future Senator. That was truly below the belt.
Congrats to you for admitting to this travesty.
Well good for you. I have absolutely no idea as to how that's going to look on your résumé though.
It's not for the resume, or to go on job interviews. It's something that some people have a lifelong dream of achieving that elusive goal and the NY Times Television department made this dream a reality. So how about some thanks to the people that organized the program we will be watching next week and the participants that did the 34.5 hour trip.
And I never will either. I dunno, usually when I think about doing something at 2 am, it ususlly has something to with either being in an amorous mode with one of the female persuasion, or waking up to take a pee. But hey, if subways are your thing, then more power to you.
IMO Being with a woman in an amorous mode is not a feat, it's something that is perfectly normal for me to (opps let's not go there).
As the majority of you know, I always joke around on this board. So 99% of you already know that when I type things, it's always tongue in cheek. Never serious, unless it's a direct question or something within that realm.
So for any of you that were in the picture that possibly took it the wrong way, then I sincerely apologize.
Then again, Kool D never has had a sense of humor, so I pretty much expected this post from him before he even posted it. I mean, if someone can get all bent up out of shape over CC LOCAL mentioning that he passes gas..............
I don't get bent out of shape when Sea Beach Fred makes fun of me, I know it's fun. As for the passing gas thing, that was a bit extreme and in bad taste but nobody's perfect in this world. I know a good joke from a bad joke and a bad joke from a really horrible, degrading joke, which is the latter since you degraded everyone in the picture.
You don't know the half of it. I think that BMTMan plucked a strand of my hair the last time that I met him so that he could go down to New Orleans and pay $10 for one of those voodoo spells.
Must've worked as I went 0 for 9 at Belmont last weekend.
>>>>>>>>>It's something that some people have a lifelong dream of achieving
In all seriousness, I admire anyone who has a lifelong dream and strives to attain it. You have no idea how many people I've met who have had dreams that they never attempted to attain. I believe that it is better to try and fail than to not try at all.
>>>>>>>>>I know a good joke from a bad joke and a bad joke from a really horrible, degrading joke, which is the latter since you degraded everyone in the picture
Actually, I've met a few of those persons in that photo, and they've met me. In fact, I spoke to R30 on the R9 trip (or is it R9 on the R30 trip.....or R2D2 on the Star Wars trip....). He's a good kid, one that I believe will make it a lot further than his dream position of a transit worker.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he made Superintendent and kept that copy of the SubTalk post in his coat pocket for the next time I want a drop.
Trust me, I'm not one of those faceless individuals who hides behind the guise of a computer.
Now as far as really horrible, degrading jokes go, you should see my bank account.
Just remember what you say before you post, especially when it comes to your fellow subtalkers. I did not post anything but when it comes to something as bad as what you post I wait until other people respond and when it comes to this, I take sides.
I admire your expectations of people you meet, just rememeber R30 (or anyone else for that matter) as an aspiring transit worker in the near future.
And that R2D2 joke was much better than the trash you posted yesterday. It doesn't have to be funny but it doesn't have to be trash either.
And let's end this garbage and move on in Subtalk.
I was on 3 of the 8 MOD trips this summer, WITH my name tag on, and I never met you :(
I'm terribly sorry about that. I guess our paths just crossed. Besides, I was only on the second R9 trip this time around as work prevented me from attending the others.
The next MoD trip that I go on, I will personally go out of my way to meet you.
My future earning potential would be reduced to the saying: "Alms for the poooor".
Oh, heavens no. I've gotten used to having teeth, and I would hate to have to stare at them without the use of a mirror.
That's already the case in New York.
Nah, BMTman's more a "Nutjob."
No, I found it obviously tongue-in-cheek, and one of the funniest things I've read on SubTalk in recent past.
Hmmm, tongue-in-cheek? Maybe. Funny? Maybe Degrading? Yes and it wouldn't be funny if it was degrading.
Specifically, that "future senator" was uncalled for.
Really? Think of all the "funny jokes" you've ever heard. Even money there are none that DON'T have somebody or something being degraded. Call it what you will. Human nature in its most "primative" state seeks to win out over the other ape standing there. To laugh about someone is one way to establish dominence over them.
Hey, don't get mad at me. I didn't do the programming...
CC Local passes gas????
Why's that so bad? I mean, hamsters are cute little critters and elderberries have a pleasing aroma ...
I can't wait to set foot on Stillwell when it opens next May.
Also forgot to mention that I thank Choo Choo for making this possible by allowing to bring the Triplex and the Steeplechase Cab to life for all Subtalkers to see these photos.
The comments are always welcome and I will try not to use flash during the underground photos. Thank you everyone for the advice, considering it was my first time using a digital camera.
-Stef
Subtalkers heard of it a couple years ago when a SEPTA Silverliner (Pioneer III, IIRC) was run into a barrier at speed to calculate injuries to crash test dummies.
Of course, Colorado's congressional delegation must have some kind of pull, since Pueblo got this, the U.S. Air Force Academy, and the federal government's publishing house.
Mark
The Colorado area is "US Capital-west" Most federal functions for the western US operate out of there.
Elias
so does
http://www.aar.com/ttci/index.htm
Transportation Technology Center, Inc., is one of two wholly-owned subsidiaries of the Association of American Railroads. Located in Pueblo, Colorado, TTCI is a world-class intermodal research and test center that offers a wide-range of capabilities that are used by freight and passenger railroads from around the world. For example, Amtrak's new high-speed Acela Express trains were extensively tested at TTCI before entering service. Japanese railroads used TTCI facilities to test a gauge changing mechanism. Work at TTCI helped make it possible for freight railroads in the U.S. and Canada to operate freight cars that weigh as much as 286,000 pounds when fully loaded.
TTCI focuses on programs that will enhance railroad safety, reliability and productivity. It also operates the world's foremost training center for emergency personnel responding to transportation accidents involving hazardous materials. There are 48 miles of test tracks located at the facility. The track is used for track structure and vehicle performance testing, life-cycle prediction and component reliability, damage prevention tests, freight ride quality and passenger comfort. The facility is owned by the Federal Railroad Administration but has been operated by TTCI - which is responsible for all of its operating costs - since 1984. TTCI is led by Roy A. Allen, President.
More recently the JetTrain prowled around there seemingly for like 2 years, starting back in late 2000. Bombardier PR people even went through the trouble of having the crews remove the catenary from a section of track so that people wouldn't think it required wires. I'm not sure how to think about that, do they really think that somebody would be so stupid as to think that a locomotive touted over and over again as 'Bringing all the benefits of the TGV without the catenary and about 40 mph slower' would make such a stupid mistake? Then again their primary target for JetTrain was Amtrak, so I guess it could be understandible.
Drexel's Library has like 3 or 4 books in the Transportation Engineering section, I don't know the numbers, just where they're at. It's funny that this whole thing with Pueblo started the evening after I had just hung out in the library reading up on some of the crazy schemes people had back in the 1970s, which Pueblo in tests. There were jet powered maglevs, LIM powered air cushion vehicles, and even a U-boat (the GE locomotive, for the Sub-foamers who wouldn't know an SD45-2 from a U28C out there) that ran at 122 mph. They're too long to scan completely and put on my FTP space, but I'll scan some of the pics and post links to them here.
That is, when I get on the library's good graces (read: take back outstanding books and pay fines :) )
--Mark
That was low.
Anyhow, I'd like to see the stuff you are talking about. We'll chat on the online about it.
BTW, the Boeing LRV was tested there.
Guess where buses are tested at? Hint-It's in the area whose congressman was chairman of the house surface transportation committe.
A guy and a gal end up riding through the entire system, and turned it into a short 14 min movie.
The acting ain't all that great, but you get to see work trains, Westchester Yard, Aqueduct Racetrack, screwy R142A announcements, and redbirds! And, you also get to hear an Andrew WK song! Do check out this movie.
You think the interrupted speaker would be PO'd at that!
(like on a previous post I did)
-R42's on the L
A very interesting film.
Peace,
ANDEE
I've seen lines to use MVM's that are longer than lines for the booth! That was the situation I was in one day when I wanted to get a 7-day unlimited. The best part, I walked away from the booth and the same people were still waiting!
At WHAT stations? As this is definitly an unusual happening.
Peace,
ANDEE
ONLY IDIOTS wait on line, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
CG
I wasn't intending the original post to be a complaint -- only an observation that there are good reasons why there might be lines at the MVM's that are longer than the line at the token booth. I phased token booths and ticket agents out of my life long ago.
CG
I once needed to buy a MetroCard at Penn Station, at the IRT end. The lines at the main booth and all of its associated MVM's were enormous. So I went upstairs to the uptown local mezzanine and there were no lines anywhere. (There are also rarely lines at the unsigned 32nd Street mezzanine.)
I don't understand. There are probably over 300 underused booths in the system (basically any booth not in midtown Manhattan) that have no lines at all, EVER (except maybe at the very very very peak of the rush hour), and you can buy your MetroCards from any of them! I never wait in a booth line at a place such as 34 St-Herald Square. When I'm ready to buy new MetroCards from a booth, I do it before my old card has run out. By giving myself some leeway, I'm able to stop and buy the MetroCards as soon as I see a booth with no line. There must be a booth along your commute that is underused. If all else fails, just stop at your normally busy booth, but during the off-hours.
From http://www.transitcenter.com/benefits/tc_ee/operators.htm
LOCAL BUS SERVICES ONLY:
MTA NYC Transit
From http://www.transitcenter.com/benefits/tc_ee/metrocards.htm
Unlimited Ride Cards give you additional savings because you can ride as much as you want on all MTA NYC Transit subway and local buses with the 7-Day ($21) and 30-Day ($70) Cards, depending on your purchase. In fact, the more you use your Card, the more you save.
Does that depend on method of payment? When I use my medical reimbursement account (pre-tax dollar program also) I can pay by credit card or check for a doctor visit or eyeglasses or whatever, and then I get a refund check in the mail from my Flex account administrator.
Does TransitChek work differently?
There are other employee benefit programs which operate similarly to the medical reimbursement account that you describe -- but the two are mutually exclusive and TransitChek is more popular.
Since the metrocard insurance appears to be triggered off of being able to match a MetroCard serial number to a credit card number used to purchase it, the TransitChek's won't be eligible for the insurance.
CG
Time to write to the Transit Authority!
CG
Your employer takes money out of your paycheck before taxes, and then gives it back to you in the form of either:
(1) paper TransitCheks, redeemable at many transit agencies, or
(2) special MetroCards with the TransitChek logo on them, or
(3) a combination of both (1) and (2)
I choose to get the paper cheks, so that if there is a cool regular issue MetroCard I want to get, I can get it from the booth.
In any event, a credit card never comes into play in the above, so no insurance.
As the MTA says, a MetroCard is like cash*. You loose it, your loss. And as TransitCenter says, the TransitChek is like cash, you loose it, your loss.
*Starting today, the insurance program, when applicable, changes this
I invite Subtalkers to contact the TA and your elected officials and back me up.
Anybody know how they go about doing that.
It is difficult to believe that all the turnstiles check back to a central database (let alone bus fareboxes doing the same). So I guess it is based on the distribution of some kind of revocation list.
But that would imply that there is still quite a window of opportunity for fraud.
I suppose they could minimise this by waiting to credit your account until they know that the revocation list has reached everywhere (probably overnight unless fareboxes can be updated using cellular technology or the like). Then basing the day count on the last actual transaction date rather than the report date.
We're not talking rocket science, and we're not talking about experimental stuff, and we're not talking about your radio at home. What I'm talking about is already in wide use in police car computers, the military, aircraft, etc. It's already production stuff. ATMs use similar technology. The fact that they communicate with the bank using cable doesn't mean you couldn't tap into them and screw around with that too.
The technology is already in commonplace use. Your objections are details which need to be addressed (and already have) but would have been more of a problem 25 years ago.
If they allowed refunds for cash cards with a receipt, what would prevent you from picking up a receipt next to an MVM, then walking into MTA HQ and telling them that you had lost your card. Since it was a cash purchase, they'd have to give you cash or the 30-n day card you described. Meanwhile some poor schmo someplace can't get into the system, doesn't know why -- and is out $70 bucks.
With the credit card purchase, they process the refund to the card used for purchase. This way whoever paid for the card is the one who gets the refund.
CG
The traffic commute? Hey, it could be worse
It's interesting to hear these results coming from a university known for its conservatism, in a state known for its preference of automobiles as the main mode of urban transit (Dallas DART being the notable exception.) If even Texas A&M is saying we need more transit, then we must really need more transit in a bad way.
Mark
This is the so called solution which I'm going to break down
1. "transit improvements"
Highly underfunded and states are cutting back on service. It's the best answer but will never happen and within 20 years, we will probably have about the same amount of public transportation or less.
2. "better traffic-signal operations"
Dream on. The motorists never wants to leave the car home and blames the "traffic-signal" as the problem. You can fix all the lights with cameras and computers but the bottom line stays the same. You can't move cars any faster once grid lock occures.
3. "aggressive incident-management programs"
This is a good one. How are you going to do this? Handing out massive tickets to speeding motorists? Jail time? Where's the money for highway officers and training programs going to come from? The highways have loads of aggressive motorists out there and they are not changing tomorrow.
4. "adjusted work hours"
I like this one. I'll just tell my boss to send me to work at 11:00 AM. I'm sure he'll agree. NOT!
5. "telecommuting"
This is even better. I'll just tell my boss I'll work at home. He'll agree in a second. NOT!
I can do a repost of it if y'all want a laugh.
Thanks
Jeff
Mark
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030930/80/e9rxt.html
Tuesday September 30, 04:46 AM
"Vasectomy delays Tube services
LONDON (Reuters) - London commuters, long used to train operators blaming delays on everything from leaves on the line to "slippery" rain, thought they had heard it all -- until a vasectomy stopped services.
Thousands of commuters were held up when a trainee driver on the London Underground fell out of his cab after fainting over fellow workers' descriptions of the vasectomy operation a colleague had undergone, newspapers reported on Tuesday.
The trainee, who was taken to hospital with head and chest injuries, had unsuccessfully asked his fellow workers to stop talking about the vasectomy, the Daily Express said.
"The details were just too graphic and evidently too much for the young trainee to take," the newspaper quoted a London Underground source as saying. The incident occurred last Thursday. "
Mark
Did anyone else get this?
Geez, he faints during a talk of a vasectomy. Imagine what he would've done during their equivalent of a 12-9? Or when a passenger on board is stabbed or seriously injured as a result of a crime.
That freakin' wimp.
http://www.straphangers.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=004457
Straphanger
Member # 1429
Member Rated:
posted 09-30-2003 07:35 PM
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That R143 4 car set sitting at West 4th has a hidden surprise for all us railfans! On the inside of the cars, there are new LCD screen type stripmaps, either 2 or 4 per car. These screens are multi-colored (red, green, white, and yellow i think) on a blak background. Also, they have the screens configured in two different ways (2 cars per). The first somewhat closely resembles the current stripmaps, digitally of course; The second lists the next 10 or 12 stops in list form, each stop telling how many stops away it is. At first, I thought that this was just some sort of paper sign mockup, but looking at it a little more closely, I reaized that it was an LCD screen. I never would have noticed these had I not been showing a friend a "subway car he had never seen before!" He had his camera and took pics of each of the two types. If you want them, email me and I'll send you them once he emails them to me. Also, there seemed to be quite a few people looking into these cars, though I don't think manyof them realized the new maps (most probably didn't care either!)
Robert
American Express, tennis any one ?
Understand that something came out again here ... this would be the third year. I haven't seen any cards ... does anyone know if it was four cards again with cloned holders ?
Also the two newest Satelty Cards are "Avoid feeling isolated and alone" and "Don't lean on the doors", this one has two different Exp. date printed on them, one 10/31/04 the otheer 11/30/04. I don't know if this matter to you and a varation of the cards. "Watch the gap" is about a mouth or so old.
Robert
Robert
Robert
The above was part of my post a number of days ago to which there were no replys.
Yesterday a fellow collector traded me two of this year's holders:
One looks like it could be Yannik Noah and says, "The official card of the model sportsman". The other looks like Lindsey Davenport and says, "The official card of serving notice". I would bet the there are others out there featuring the William's sisters.
Mark
Thanks for the airtimes, I missed that post, assuming we haven't gotten our cable cut off by then, I'll try to watch and record it!
1SF9
It's not a TEASE... it's a PROMO, momo.
A TEASE is when they feed you the "Next time on...." at the END of an episode.
A PROMO is for BEFORE it's premiered.
Vato
Whenever Ali's program repeats itself, it takes along the SAME order of
commercial ads..... including ours!
(that's the same place I've seen it CONSISTENTLY).
Good luck, fishermen!
Peace,
ANDEE
: )
Elias
(Smith 9th) This station is the highest elevated station in the system, at 80 feet (measurement within 10 feet).
Yes Yes Yes, but the line goes UPHILL into the tunnel, and while it is in a very deep tunnel by the time that it gets to 157th or 168th Streets, it is surely at a HIGHER elevation than 125th Street, probably a much higher elevation that Smith-9th.
Besides if you were to ask what is the HIGHEST station on the system, you then must qualify *what-part-of-the-station* Certainly the Entry Stairways to these stations are much higher than the tracks...
So... The BROADWAY LINE has the HIGHEST stations on the system!
: )
Elias
Smith/9 St wins whichever way you look at it.
Peace,
ANDEE
I thought the book was overpriced, at $ 35.00, and my only other complaint about it is the images in it, unidentified as to date and location. I realize, however, that such information is not always available.
--Mark
Hold anything bearing the MTA logo up to a mirror. That'll show you what the MTA thinks you are. :-)
The subject of BMT subway cars, as fascinating as it might be for you and me, does not make it a mass market item. Best sellers by Hillary Clinton and Ann Coulter may go for $25.00. Six months later they're in the clearance bin for $2.99, and the publisher has still reaped a profit.
Now you're on. If you spent time doing academic research on a subway subject and collected a set of rare photographs to illustrate same, and found a publisher willing to take a chance on your project with the expectation of selling maybe 1,000 copies, what would be a fair price for your book? What is your time worth?
What do you think would be a fair price for such a book ? How much do you think your time is worth ? Yes, you asked me first, but I need time to think.
I, too, have learned to buy books on first sight, if they interest me, and if the price is within reason. This, as opposed to procrastinating, only to find the book gone later on. For too long, I was in the habit of not owning copies of books that meant a great deal to me personally. For example, I first read "The Lost Weekend" in April 1975, but did not own a copy until only a year ago.
The economic realities of the publishing business have led some authors to publish limited editions of their work at their own expense, to avoid having to "pitch" to publishers, concern about profit margins, sales, promotions, etc. Or has the internet or world wide web made this a thing of the past ?
One would think (or hope) that books of vintage railroad, subway and el photographs, valuable as references, would be better bound to withstand the wear and tear of frequent use for reference.
If that really is the case, a more appropriate name would be "Imperfect Binding".
Also yesterday after coming [downtown] from 23/6, I saw R-143 #8202 and its 3 mates (whatever those are) at West 4th Street on the southbound express track. Anyone know what that was about?
Alabama Av sees quite a few passengers (and employees) during the day, thus the reason to make it an all stop station.
You mean "speaking of Alabava Amenue," right?
Also note that trains seemed to arrive peculiarly often. I was on an M that was trailing a Z until Marcy, a J caught up with us at Myrtle and left first, and as soon as it pulled off the Z rounded the corner at Hewes, and before it even got to the station [Myrtle] here comes another J behind it! Did they suddenly increase frequency of service on the J/M/Z lines?
Ten miles or more are taken out of service, but you seldom if ever see anybody working, yet the project is always done before the frost sets in.
Why is this? Highways at least are done in one long ribbon, so first they dig out the old stuff and then they spend lots of time preparing the subsurface, and then grading and laying it out just so, and then as if by magic, the machine passes over it and it is fully paved.
And so looking out your window, you see each slice of work as it comes by, but you never see them all working at once.
Elias
Robert
In R143's, cars that have numbers X and X-3 are the "A" cars, and those that have X-1 and X-2 are the "B" cars.
For Example:
XNumberA/BX8104AX-18103BX-28102BX-38101A
Redbirds to Stand-by, effective with this morning's rush.
October 1, 2003.
From now on, you might see 'em or you might not.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Derailments in yards happen. And they happen fairly frequently. I ended my own TA career with one, and in the year that I worked out of CIY, I saw 25 derailments and collisions. Some of them rather spectacular. Derailments only make the papers when they occur on REVENUE track and there's injuries. I *can* say that the derailment on the 7 line WAS a set of redbirds, but I'm not at liberty to provide ANY details. Follow the thread back, and if you read between the lines, there's enough to guess at what happened.
The TA gag order, along with WILD speculation here as de rigeur, seems to cause this all to be a lot bigger than it really was. Subtalk is a fun place to fling poo, but aside from the MAIN site which actually DOES have information that is checked and doublechecked, subtalk has little in the way of actual fact. I still love it just the same, but then I come here to have fun and don't take what I read very seriously. Before the childish silliness took root, you could actually GET real information here ...
Don't feel bad though - there's plenty of us kibbitzers here. And when I fling poo, I always put one of these at the end ----> :)
Any info on that Selly?
You mean Flushing Meadows-Corona Park?
--Mark
#3 West End Jeff
I'm sure they only got the death penalties because of the damage to them. With Corona getting rid of tehe Redbirds and an expected Scrap Trip coming up, they weren't willing to repair the cars.
I wouldn't have bothered fixing them either. I'm sure there's a few sets out there that are still operable, but my bet is that they were among the first to go swimming rather than the last. But those cars that Greenberger shot are NOT roadworthy and shouldn't even be laid up. It's a shame, but they're shot. Pure and simple.
Wonder if the housetop on the switch was cause or effect? :)
After THAT ride, I wouldn't go near a redbird again. And I'm an experienced motorman, I know what cosmetic issues may look bad but aren't a hazard - this train SCARED me. Scared my buddy too. And this wreck DID get transferred to the 7. :(
Nothing was transferred to the 7 except 62As.
What you rode on the 4 was an R-33, and it was never moved to the 7.
Yup, they were saying that Monday afternoon, as well as the lead on the whole was in bad shape (before incident). Rotten wood everywhere.
Yeah you're right, got my crap mixed up. I was in the tower and initially the T/D said they were going to 207 until the T/O who reported insisted that they were not going to 207. Now I remember. Sorry guys.
OR...
Store the R36's at Yard A at Sunnyside. When it's time for them to run, put a small ramp connecting the LIRR with the 7 outside the Hunterspoint Av portal.
When it's time for them to run, put a small ramp connecting the LIRR with the 7 outside the Hunterspoint Av portal. Wow like it is that easy for them to build a ramp. Even though that would be an ideal space to hold train if the TA wanted increase cars on the #7.
#3 West End Jeff
You have got to stop scaring these folks. Your info is not for the weak of heart!
-Stef
SharpFerry
(Souldn't have said it quite that way since I love da boids, but good poetry won out over good taste.)
: ) Elias
Farewell and Thanks fo the memories
The Redbirds are 40+ years old, went through the deferred maintenance of the 1970's, and were not robust as the Low-V's.
If it wasn't for Bondo, the fans riding the "last gasp" would be on R62's.
Probably 30 years or longer.
Peace,
ANDEE
Are you sure of that? I believe there was such an entrance when the station was built, but it didn't last long.
Peace,
ANDEE
If you REALLY want to know, how about going to the NYPL and doing a computerized search of the NY Times archives for articles related to W 4th Street and IND. Then tell us.
I'd be interested in the answer, but not enough to spend the time on it.
The stairs went down to the mezza-mezzanine and there was fare control in there.
I do not accept the new names. in 20 years, I'll be an icon to the past, as my dad was when he constantly referred to the J train as the "BMT" Jamaica line and never stopped using double letters when referring to the G, C and R lines.
Good Photo Op while they're still there!
When I'm on the 'J' Line: "Broadway Junction -- Eastern Parkway".
When I'm on the 'L' Line: "Broadway Junction".
In this way the new name is incorporated into the announcement, and yet 'ol timers will also get the original station names so that they don't get 'left out'.
wayne
One would THINK that with all the renovations going on around there, they would've EXPANDED that connection so it doesn't look like 53/Lex in the morning rush hour...JMO.
Incidentally, IIRC, the park was built at about the same time as the IND construction at East New York. The building of that park may have been part of the 'deal' with the construction of ENY station. I have to go look at Fred Kramer's book on the building of the IND to check up on this...more to come (no doubt).
The street is narrow, but the sidewalks are generally pretty wide. Generally a lane of traffic is about as wide as a subway track, I think, so two lanes plus two parking lanes should be about enough for a four-track line that uses the sidewalk space for platforms.
Thats pretty cool. Was it built by cut and cover?
Yes. Very little of the IND system is bored tunnels, and the Fulton Street line is quite close to the street.
It must have been interesting to build a cut-and-cover line under an active el...
They probably built some of it underneath the sidewalk as well, as the sidewalk looks a little bit wider than it usually would.
Many of the lower Manhattan lines run under narrow streets. The two 2/3 stations under William have ultra-narrow island platforms, and Fulton J/M/Z is so narrow that the tracks and platforms are stacked.
Incidentally, this should put to rest the theory that the (upper) Lex line is on two levels because Lex is too narrow for four tracks side-by-side. If you look at the planning documents on this site, you'll see that the local tracks rise and fall with the terrain, but the express tracks avoid most of the climbs and drops since they don't have to worry about many stations. (They'd avoid even more if there were no station at 86th, but that would have left an overly long express run.)
IIRC, there is a recording of a symphony from Carnegie Hall somewhere out there in which BMT Standards can plainly be heard passing by.
Review of film here:
http://www.digitallyobsessed.com/showreview.php3?ID=1410
Besides, the TA was offering the cars free, at one time (but you had to pay to transport them off TA property - there's the catch.
If you can mention ONE law they are violating, then I won't consider this post to be the insane ramblings of someone losing his favorite toy.
Not bad for 47 years of age? If you dont know it was from an R-21.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=465677
My Dad has #7659 AND #7687 (both from R22 cars) up on his shop wall, along with a curtain roll from some poor old R-4. Did you get the MkII R44 plaque from the NYCT museum? I saw a few of them there a couple of years ago.
wayne
I really want one of the old station plaques from Howard Beach and one of the signs that disappeared from Chambers/WTC, but I doubt I'll ever come across any.
wayne
wayne
wayne
Original plate-- the 9 has the "lowercase g" bottom (not a slanted 9)
Now I can't stand 3/4 of their daily playlist.
If you are gonna buy a Redbird numberplate, be sure to wash your hands afterwards. They are quite dusty, especially on the back.
The numberplate I have now also has an embedded Redbird paint chip. Heh.
There should be like 10-15 Redbird numberplates left along with plenty of R44 pre-GOH plates. R36WF 9658 (I believe) has four numberplates. A majority of them are from the 36WFs, and I think I only saw like 2 or 3 numberplates from the Mainlines.
::sigh::
That number plate stack is the FIRST thing I touch on each visit.
Most transit agencies shut down the trains at night, replacing them with special night buses. New York keeps the subways running, but with infrequent service (every 20 minutues) and shuttles; meanwhile buses are virtually shut down, with most routes running every 30 or even 60 minutes. The trains are full, the buses empty, according to those who ride then.
I had suggested running a special "inner" subway network with very frequent service -- once every three minutes. It would be the IRT as far as Atlantic Avenue 4/5 and Grand Army Plaza 2/3 in Brooklyn, the Hub at 149th (2/3) or Yankee Stadium (4/5) in the Bronx, and Queensboro (7) in Queens. These terminals, and 96th in Broadway on the West Side, would be major transfer points. From there special night buses running every five or six minutes would carry people to the rest of the city.
Among the advantages are more safety for workers during maintenance and less crime/vandalism in the subways overnight, since people would be concentrated in a smaller number of lines, stations, and transfer points and would not be isolated.
How about cost and service?
As it happens, the B68 and B75 bus, combined, run a route similar to Brooklyn's "F" train as far as Downtown Brooklyn. During rush hours, the F takes 28 minutes to get from Kings Highway to Jay Street. The B68 takes 26 minutes to go from Kings Highway to Bartel Prichard Square, and the B75 takes 28 minutes to go from there to Livingston and Jay. That's 54 minutes, almost twice as long. But AFTER MIDNIGHT, the F takes 24 minutes to make the trip, but the buses take 32, just eight minutes longer! True, that is without having to pick up and drop off many passengers, but it is also without the buses having traffic signal over-ride, something that could be implemented in the overnight hours. More frequent service, and no time climbing to the street in an abandoned station, would easily override a modest increase in travel time.
And cost. I hope that all 15 stations are manned all night by 15 employees. Assume 2.5 trains on the right of way from Jay to Kings Highway; that's five crew. So 20 people are required to run the F train on that length of track overnight.
You'd need just 13 bus drivers to run one bus every five minutes on that route. Add a dispatcher, two guys going up and down the line inspecting the stations to prevent vandalism, and one guy at the transfer station directing and protecting passengers, (all of whom could also be working on the stretch of track from Kings to Stillwell too) and that's just 16. You save four. Plus any MOW workers saved because most of the work would take place in a closed ROW, except an in spection car going back and forth.
I live in the outer boroughs. And what I wrote is is that at rush hour a bus takes twice as long to cover the same distance as a train. With the train running every four minutes and full, it would take hundreds of buses to move that many people.
On the other hand, in the middle of the night the buses take about the same time as the train, and with one train every 20 minutes, it would take fewer buses to replace the train, with more frequent service.
I think there is a differnce between suface traffic conditions and transit ridership at 2 a.m. and 2 p.m. Therefore I do not agree with your point above.
(Subways for Manhattan and screw the outer boroughs.)
I live in the outer boroughs. And what prompted this is that if I were riding in the middle of the night I'd be happier with the service as I described it than with what we have now. I'd also be more likely to allow my children, when the are in their late teens, to take transit home if they are in Manhattan at midnight. They'd get on a crowded train after waiting, at most, three minutes, get off with hundreds of other people at a place where hundreds were waiting to transfer, get on a bus after waiting at most five minutes, and ride to within a couple of blocks from my house (right next to the subway stop, but on the surface rather than underground). As it is, I think I'd have to get in my car and go pick them up.
If you prohibit your children from riding around the subway at night now when they are younger, you are a good parent. If you prohibit them from doing so in their late teens, you are a fascist.
Spoken like a late teen. Six weeks ago I might have agreed with you. The brutal attack of two young women who had exited the subway in the past two months on my own subway line, one around the corner from my own house, both coming home from jobs at 2 am and 4 am, gives me pause. No it isn't significant in a statistical sense, but in any low odds situation once can be dismissed as an anectdote while twice could be interpreted as a significant increase in the odds from a low base. Perhaps bringing up the owl-bus idea again is an over-reaction, but this hits a little close to home.
Does it appear to be the same attacker? If so, he'll surely get careless and will be caught, hopefully before he strikes too many more times.
Very young children should not ride the subway or bus on their own anyway.
You would have a point about service frequency and time (for example, if the A train makes all local stops, you'd have a hell of a long ride from Washington Heights to the Rockaways).
It strikes me that operating personnel wouldn't get done parking the trains till 2:00, and by 5:00 the next shift would have to be back at the yards.
Also, part of the way NYCT staffs the morning rush, according to other posters, is to have shifts that run from 1 AM till 9 Am or 2 till 10. Are you proposing multi-trained staff who can both drive a bus and then operate a subway in the morning rush? If not, you'll have more T/Os who aren't needed for a full shift.
That could be a problem. If it weren't for the vandals, they could be left along the ROW and pick up where they left off, but I suppose the "artists" could break in and ruin them.
After a rail is replaced, at least two trains must pass over the section before it is released by the crew, and more if the rail needs to pe polished and make a good shunt.
Rail In: 2:30am, Next train: 5am, sit back and relax!
Some departments don't work from central locations where truck(s) can originate from.
Are you talking about speeders for "inspection cars" where would these be based when not in use? Plus speeders don't shunt and need to operate under track warrants.
When would the maintenace get done on the line with 20TPH all night? Pulling a rail or changing lock rods would delay 7 trains instead of 1 or none. -And don't say service diversion! If you cut 90% of the service, no one will stand for GO's at that point.
When a signal trouble arises during the overnight hours, it is usually dealt with before rush hours. But with no service at night, the trouble is not discovered until everyone is late for work.
People rely on the trains _because_ they never shut down, it there was a cutoff, you're going to see ridershop drop off, whithout a complimentary increase in "owl" bus usage.
One of the hugest problems on every OTHER transit property is that people can't rely on it to get them home of they stay out late. It means that they are much less likely to ride it into the city in the first place. Remember that almost all of the rideship increase on NYCT has taken place in the off hours.
When would the first and last trains run? Running the last train before most bars close is a bit irresponsible, but I'm sure cabs and car services would love it. When would the first train run? You can bet anyone who needs to be at work before then is gonna scream discrimination.
The subway is a great class equalizer in NYC in part because of its omnipresence. Take away that, and the individuals on "owl" busses will harbor resentment since they can't "ride the subway like everyone else"
If there is an upsurge in station crime, then the program of the "designated waiting area" should be pushed back into usage, and there should be a station agent observing all of the waiting areas. The annunciators are still in place and working, but few people use them anymore. Don't cut station agents.
For 29 years, I lived at E.3 St and Ave N - two blocks from the F line and eight from Coney Island Ave and the B68. Under your plan, I would need to cross a miniature highway (Ocean Parkway has eight lanes of traffic plus a left turn lane) as well as CIA itself (another four) to wait for a bus to transfer to another bus to transfer to a train (oops, that's one transfer too many already and I haven't even arrived where I'm going). So far I've added another eight minutes (walking) on top of your eight minutes, put myself in danger twice crossing busy streets, paid an extra fare, all so transit could save some money. It ain't gonna work.
I'm also not convinced that this would lead to a savings on operations. After all, there is a big differential between bus and subway operating costs on a per mile basis, according to the TA's published data. You are proposing to increase both subway and bus revenue miles. It does seem to be counter intuitive to trying to save costs.
It's your proposal, I'd expect an economist to come up with some hard figures for the savings. Might I suggest that we use the demand and cost figures in the abovementioned links?
The idea is to reduce the number of trucks rolling through local Astoria streets.
Car drivers shouldn't care - they should be riding the N train anyway...
I'm not sure I'd consider an expressway service road a "residential street." The R6/C2-2 zoning along Hoyt Avenue/Astoria Boulevard doesn't exactly convey quiet and bucolic, either.
Car drivers shouldn't care - they should be riding the N train anyway...
The N train doesn't go to the Bronx.
"The N train doesn't go to the Bronx."
I know. I just wanted to put an on-topic sentence into the post. :0)
Oh... in that case, truck drivers shouldn't care, either, since their cargo should be going over the Hell Gate Bridge :^)
That's the amazing thing here. This has been talked about almost as long as the Second Avenue Subway, with report after report released, but no one actually did anything until Bloomberg came along. Heck the EISs, the MISs, the public hearings with people shouting "no," why go through that. Yet it appears that under Bloomberg the city is just going to go ahead and do it. How could he do it? Maybe the fact that he is calling it a "test," and if the test is successful what political actor is going to demand putting trucks back on the local roads until all the procedures are followed?
One issue is the bridges -- there are some that aren't 14'4," and I don't recall seeing them get raised, thought I don't drive that often, especially over THAT route.
Why not extend it?
I like it, by the way. I'd do it.
What route was the LGA extension on? An extension to the Bronx would need 2 blocks of new El on 31st St before the only NIMBYs would be fish. I suspect a LGA El would have been somewhat more disruptive (curves etc).
What route was the LGA extension on? An extension to the Bronx would need 2 blocks of new El on 31st St before the only NIMBYs would be fish. I suspect a LGA El would have been somewhat more disruptive (curves etc)."
Actually, the NIMBYs against the N extension to LAG were in fact those living, or with businesses, on that 2-block stretch of 31st St.
From Steve Anderson's New York Roads And Crossings
Whitestone Expressway (Parkway)
http://www.nycroads.com/roads/whitestone
Whitestone Bridge
http://www.nycroads.com/crossings/bronx-whitestone
Hutchinson River Parkway/Expressway http://www.nycroads.com/roads/hutchinson/
From Steve Anderson's NYC Roads
http://www.nycroads.com/roads/grand-central/
http://www.nycroads.com/roads/brooklyn-queens/
Here is what one driver said from the story:
“I don't think it's good for the Grand Central,” said resident Glenda Tanner. “We have enough traffic on the Grand Central without the trucks.”
She is totally clueless. The BQE exit is ONE exit away. Most traffic on the GCP (in that area) is between the EASTERN Wye of the BQE and the Northern Blvd/Whitestone Expwy Exit.
: ) Elias
Only one of the estimated 200 signs like that in the entire subway system, an error.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Hey I live in chinatown, and thats not far from the picture location. And I think perhaps someone who have nothing better to do in their life came to that location with blue paint in the middle of the night and scheme that thing out in attempt to drive everyone on that area to a nut bin.
Chinatown is "not far" from 86th Street and Central Park West? If that's the case, you must live "inches" from Columbus Circle! Or "millimeters" from Times Square!
In other words, for those not familiar with New York City, Chinatown is nowhere near where that photo was taken.
Maybe originally, but the sign's recent reappearance may have been the work of a true subway connoisseur...
AHA, then somebody who knew about the error peeled away the orange (B) bullet.
Bill "Newkirk"
Isn't that what a timetable (obtainable fromt the clerk) is for? They felt the time had to be on the signs as well? Why not have the S/As hold the customers' hands as they walk down the stairs as well, so that the customer doesn't have to think about how to walk.
No, orange A.
A blue
K blue
C blue
H blue
S blue (new setting)
E blue
F orange
V orange
G sea green
R yellow
S yellow
W circle-yellow
N yellow
Q diamond-yellow
Q circle-yellow
B orange
D orange
Q circle-orange
S orange
S grey
L grey
J brown
M brown
Z circle-brown
Not In Service
Special
Shuttle
Removed are the yellow B/D, the sky blue JFK Express and the brown diamond R.
Some R46s had a blue S at least 2 years ago.
The K is still there... maybe there's still some future for it. Last I knew the side signs had a K to lefferts, but that was before the recent reprogramming.
The R46's were the first to get them. They've only been installed within the past year though.
Then we're not talking about the same units.
I don't know how many had them (I didn't play with the signs much being in the C/Rs position), but I can tell you the sign I saw the blue S on had no H and had the cyan JFK.
And this wasn't in the past year because I haven't been C/R in over a year.
wayne
B 145St-Brighton Beach via CPW Lcl,8Av Lcl,Brighton Exp.
:-)
-Stef
Peace,
ANDEE
OK, where is this? Yard A?
BTW, see the low level LIC station platform for the LIC-Lower Montack service in the above photo!
There's a movie theatre in Kew Gardens that's built right over the LIRR station, but I do not believe that there was ever a direct entrance.
The O'Hare terminus obviously exits directly into the O'Hare buildings. I wouldn't say the Midway terminal has a direct exit because it's about 1/4 mile of walking through a parking garage to get to the counters.
The State/Washington stop on the Red Line subway has an exit directly into Marshall Fields, and into Chicago's Pedway, which has entrances into a number of other buildings, but I won't count them becuase the pedway is basically just an underground sidewalk, not an entrance per se.
The Blue Line's Clark/Lake stop has direct entrances into the Thompson Center government building to the south and the building north of the station.
The Merchandise Mart station on the Brown/Purple Lines also has an entrance/exit directly into the building.
The Red Line Loyola stop has an exit directly into a McDonalds.
I think that the Roosevelt Red/Green/Orange Line stations may have an entrance/exit into a new building being built between them, but I'm not certain - I know they added a connecting tunnel, but they may not have opened an entrance from the project itself.
I also worked at WTC, but we know abouth that one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
First, regarding the D-type Triplex units, Greller says that two of the four prototypes (6000-6003) had WH 579P1 motors and two had GE 282 motors (p65). Which type of motor did production units have?
Second, Greller says that the Budd-built "Zephyr" had eddy current brakes instead of dynamic brakes (p103). I've heard of eddy current braking, but I have absolutely no idea how it works. Help? Jeff, are you there? :-)
Frank Hicks
Eddy current braking was used on the GE-equipped Multi-Section
units as well as the experimental Zephyr.
The basic principle of operation is that if one takes a disk
of conductive material and rotates it through a magnetic field
passing perpendicular to the plane of the disk, and electric
current will flow in the disk. Imagine that the disk is a
many-spoked wheel, with each spoke a closed loop of wire. As
each spoke comes under the field, clearly the magnetic flux
in that loop of wire increases rapidly from 0 to full. This
induces a voltage in the loop, and a current flows which is that
voltage divided by the very low resistance of the closed loop of
wire. This same process happens in reverse as the loop exits
the field.
So, as the disk rotates through the field, circular "eddy" currents
flow in the surface of the disk. This slows down the disk.
The circulating currents (at least the radial inward and outward
components) react with the magnetic field to produce a retarding
torque, the same way that current flowing in the armature conductors
of a DC motor reacts with the field. The kinetic energy is
converted into heat, i.e. I^2R losses.
A modification of this principle, using alternating current, is
what makes the AC Vane Relay work (Dave B are you listening?)
As applied to traction, eddy current braking was a pet project of
GE in the 1930s. The disk was mounted on the traction motor
shaft in an extension housing. There were various schemes to
create the field. One method was to use trolley voltage with a
variable dropping resistor, which had obvious problems if the
power failed. I believe the Multis used the traction motors
as generators with the fields excited by battery voltage in
series with a regulating resistor, but I've never had a chance
to look over the prints on those cars so I don't know for sure.
The primary advantage of eddy current braking was that it was
easier to regulate than dynamics. In dynamic braking, the two
motors or motor groups are connected together with a variable
load resistance in the middle, forming a figure-8. This
configuration is self-exciting and somewhat difficult to control.
That's why most PCCs and many of the older rapid transit cars
(before electronic control systems took over) have rough
dynamic brakes.
Frank Hicks
The MS had a very complicated braking system, schedule "AMCE",
where the "C" referred to a "C" control valve. I can't even
begin to describe how Byzantine this thing was...with straight
air being sent within the 5-car unit, automatic air (reduction
system) used between the units with the straight-air signal
re-derived at each unit, plus an electropneumatic overlay, and
an attempt to achieve closed-loop control of brake rate using
an accelerometer! The loss-of-brake symptoms reported in
the railfan literature generally involved complete loss,
including emergency braking, which would not have been attributable
to the dynamic or eddy current braking systems.
One way from TSQ to MSF via Express: 26 mins.
One way from MSF to TSQ via Local: 33 mins.
The express takes 28 minutes and 45 seconds.
Expresses don't save nearly as much time as they seem.
You're confusing the J and the 7.
Any idea what is the half way point?
Kind of a strange station, the entrance from Cherry lane reminds me of some of those Queens stations. And the last picture looks like an entranceway to an abandoned platform that may have extended further west from the previous one
"Im so close to the LIRR now everytime an express train passes I feel it shaking the ground. Now thats what I call a railfan palace!"
--Mark
569 No Data
This Web page could not be opened with the specified browser request. Please try again later.
--Mark
//nyctmc.org/Xview_still.asp
Mark
QBPlaza
Mark
//nyctmc.org/Xview_still.asp
Create a new text file and type the following text into it:
(the train continues into the tunnel)
<html>
<iframe width="100%" height="500" src="http://nyctmc.org/Xview_still.asp?cam_id=54&server=RS2&address=Queens+Plaza+N+%40+Queens+Boro+Bridge"></iframe>
</html>
(Another train leaves the tunnel and enters the station)
Save the file on the desktop.
Rename the file to something like, "desktop.html." The extension must be either htm or html.
Then, right-click on the desktop itself and then select "Properties."
In the dialog box that appears, select the "Desktop" tab. Then, click "browse."
(a train of R40 slants enters the station from the tunnel)
Select "Desktop" in the "Look in:" box, and select "desktop.html" (or whatever the name of the HTML file was. Click "Open" then click "OK" and enjoy!
Any machine running Windows 98 or higher can follow this procedure.
(A train of R40 mods leaves for Manhattan.)
Enjoy!
It's an honest enough question, that really did not require an inquiry to the MTA, after all, there was a good possibility that someone here might have known what had happend, and it might have made in interesting topic for conversation.
But now well never know, I guess.
Elias
It sure must have moved pretty fast when it moved at all.
Actually, the last time I looked, Times Square was on 7th Avenue.
: ) Elias
Very! That happened one nite I was heading to 71st Continental on a a R train. It sat for 10 mins at each station (63rd Dr & 67th Ave)from Woodhaven Blvd (where I had gotten on the train)to 71st. Two F trains and two E trains had passed I was angry for the rest of the night.
Its happened another time when the E and F were running local one weekend. Also, it seems that alot of F trains late at night get held at 169th street alot for about 10 mins before getting a Green signal(to 179th st). On several occasions I had to cut the BS and run upstairs so I wouldn't miss my bus!
It's that sort of thing that has soured me on taking the subway to Jamaica Center and then taking a bus from there, even though it's cheaper. I'm now more inclined to take the railroad from Penn Station, even if I have to walk a bit further to get to the railroad. Even if I have to wait around, at least Penn is climate-controlled. I've about had my fill of standing around Jamaica in swealtering heat or freezing cold for half an hour waiting for a bus.
The railroad is much better, but using my metrocard keeps my transportation expenses static. Transferring to a bus especially at night does have its disadvantages. Sometimes I look at the buildings along Hillside (when waiting late at night) and think "it must be so convenient living there" They can walk to the train, and its a 30 min ride to midtown.
Besides more people will appreciate such a beautiful station as the original City Hall station. OTOH one person may panic as to why the 4, 5, and 6 train will by bypass BB/CH if they have to get off and transfer to the J train and chaos ensures.
They can't cross over south of Wall Street?
There is no prohibition that I know of about carrying mobile phones on duty. We are forbidden from engaging in any activity that would distract us from our operation. This would include using a mobile while engaged in operating duties.
I have often used my mobile phone to communicate with towers, where it is possible, to request a correct route or to ask for instructions.
Michael
Thanks for the response. But why do you need your mobile to communicate with the tower when you have the radio? I have a thought on this, but would rather hear your answer.
Paul
Sometimes a tower like KHwy F will tune into B2 becasue of a problem and forget to tune back to B1 or turn down the volume on their radio. Sometime the tower has a problem and does not want control to know they have a bad railroad.
And LOTS of times the batteries stink and die on you. You can often send a few feet when you do a radio check and can receive fine ut when you try to send the next time no juice.
One time, I called Control Center to report a malfunctioning red signal that wouldn't clear on the structure (aka the El), which is something that must be reported to Control. The Console Dispatcher even joked that a Cell Phone has practically become part of the equipment needed to work down here.
I was on the A train headed from the transit museum and as the train approached Jay Street/Borough Hall, a signal malfunctioned, thus tripping the train more than two times. And when that happened, the batteries on the T/O's walkie-talkie died out.
Peace,
ANDEE
BART to S.J. facing 12-year delay
By Gary Richards
San Jose Mercury News
In a stunning setback to the plan to bring BART to San Jose, the Valley Transportation Authority will release a report tonight saying that at best, BART may not be completed until 2026 -- 12 years later than expected.
Three years ago, South Bay voters approved a half-cent sales tax to help pay for the $4.1 billion, 16.3-mile BART extension largely because they were promised trains would be running before too long. But that dream is receding into the future. If you are commuting today, chances are, you will never commute on BART in Silicon Valley.
The VTA report says that if the agency does not develop a major new revenue stream, it will lack the financial stability needed to purchase bonds to speed up the project.
``The delay would be substantial,'' said Scott Buhrer, the VTA's chief financial officer. ``If we construct BART with just the revenues now available and slow the project down to fit the current forecast, it would take another 23 years to complete.''
News of the report stunned many officials who, for perhaps the first time, are questioning whether BART to San Jose will ever be built. It did not, however, surprise transportation advocates, who have been warning for years that the money wasn't there to operate trolleys and buses and bring BART south.
``I know what we promised voters, but the problem is that we've got more on our plate than we can afford,'' said Santa Clara County Supervisor Don Gage, the chairman of a special committee reviewing VTA's finances.
Waiting 20-plus years is not acceptable, said Carl Guardino, head of the Silicon Valley Manufacturing Group and manager of three county transportation tax measures.
``Voters taxed themselves for BART and it would be taxing their patience too much to wait 23 more years,'' said Guardino, 42. ``I really don't want to use a senior citizen discount by the time the train arrives.''
The transit agency has released a series of funding scenarios in recent weeks, grappling with the devastating impact the valley's worst recession has had on mass transit. Santa Clara County officials eventually concluded that the agency would need another $700 million to hold BART to its original schedule. That figure alarmed Supervisor Blanca Alvarado, who added an item to tonight's agenda asking when BART realistically would be finished.
Buhrer's response to Alvarado was a shocker: The county's $700 million shortfall estimate was too low.
``The number is bigger than that,'' Buhrer said, adding that while the VTA could seek bonds totaling $1.4 billion over the next decade, it may need as much as $2 billion, ``and that's before you add in the interest costs.''
Led by Gonzales
The BART to San Jose effort was led by San Jose Mayor Ron Gonzales, who has pushed for an extension for more than a decade. He was en route to Vancouver on Wednesday and unavailable for comment.
Business leaders are surveying voters to see if they would support another sales tax measure in November 2004. A half-cent tax would cover the transit agency's operating shortfall and help put BART back on its original construction schedule.
The sour economy may make passing a tax difficult, especially when voters already approved an earlier tax believing they would be boarding trains under Santa Clara Street in the next decade. In addition, under current state law, a new tax needs a two-thirds majority to pass. Only one of five transportation measures -- the BART tax -- has passed by that margin in the county. And some voters may feel that the BART delay is merely a ploy to push through a sales tax.
But Gage said the numbers are loud and clear. ``This is the reality,'' he said. ``This is the bottom line.''
Another option is being pushed by Supervisor Jim Beall: Instead of increasing the local sales tax, ask voters to extend Measure A by 15 or 20 years. Beall said an extension could raise an extra $3.2 billion. BART might still be delayed, but the transit agency could guarantee that new tracks are laid.
``Some people can talk about a tax increase, but I don't think the voters are talking about it,'' said Beall, a member of the Metropolitan Transportation Commission. ``A tax is unacceptable and will be more opposed than in the past.''
A shorter plan
Another option: Extend BART to East San Jose, perhaps at a station along Alum Rock Avenue, then stop. It would cut the $4.1 billion price tag perhaps in half.
Optimists are floating a best-case scenario that is full of ifs: If a new sales tax passes, if Washington and Sacramento deliver every penny, then the BART extension could be built by 2016.
But Sacramento and Washington are awash in red ink. Gov. Davis pledged $760 million for BART when times were flush. Now, more than $600 million of that is frozen until at least 2009. The transit agency wants the federal government to kick in $834 million for BART, but transit authorities around the country are clamoring for money and competition is fierce.
``You're assuming that we'll get federal and state money,'' said Gage, the supervisor from Gilroy. ``I don't think that is going to happen.
``And even if the economy turns around, it's never going to be as hot as it was.''
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Valley Transportation Authority meets today at 6 p.m. in the board of supervisor chambers at 70 W. Hedding St., San Jose. Contact Gary Richards at mrroadshow@mercurynews. com or (408) 920-5335.
Mark
I think the sales tax being collected could be used to electrify the Caltrain line and introduce frequent catenary or third-rail powered commuter service with improved ADA compliant platforms, integrated Santa Clara Transit bus terminals, and perhaps new light rail in San Jose itself connecting to the Caltrain.
Mark
False statement. CalTrain already does provide east bay commuters with access to Silicon Valley. What is does NOT do is provide a one-seat ride there. You have to transfer to Caltrain. System map
CalTrain has improved their schedule recently.
Look at this press release.
If I recall correctly, BART reaches speedsof 45-50 mph under the Bay and on longer stretches of track. Caltrain's speed limit between stations is 79 mph, unless that has changed recently (correct me here if I am wrong).
It would be more cost effective for BART to expand its web within San Francisco County and adjacent communities, while CalTrain upgrades ROW to a high speed (100 mph+) line.
Perhaps a separate CalTrain Line going straight from the East Bay to San Jose would be desired. This line would never actually cross the Bay; it would stay on the East Shore and head toward San Jose. Again, I would advocate a catenary-supplied commuter rail line with high speed (at least 100 mph) running.
As for operating characteristics, Caltrains is generally a 70mph railroad at present with 60mph north of Bayshore and some 75mph between Mountain View and Santa Clara. BART on the other hand generally reaches 75mph on the longer stretches. Of course, this does not reflect the projected speeds from the ongoing rebuilding. While Caltrains service will be faster with more trains come next Spring, it still doesn't address East Bay.
I sympathize with BART riders hanging out as far as Fremont, but the map shows your statement does not apply as you get into Oakland.
OK, so you want to expand the East Branch (my terminology) of BART, as opposed to creating another branch of the railroad to come north to meet it. OK, you've convinced me. Now let's find some money. The sales tax doesn't supply enough.
"As for operating characteristics, Caltrains is generally a 70mph railroad at present with 60mph north of Bayshore and some 75mph between Mountain View and Santa Clara."
That sucks. Gotta speed it up!
I did know know that! Gearloose, you withheld evidence undermining your claim!
Thanks, David.
The previous response from Dave V. that outlined the 6 points essentially mirrors my own opinion except that I don't consider the Capitol Service at present to be a real commuter option (bullet 1).
As for the points made in bullets 2,3,5 and 6, I wholeheartedly agree with them. I'm not sure what he means by bullet 4.
While I would much rather see a Caltrains type operation, I just have a feeling that it would be easier to sell the idea of extending BART. Regardless, Dave's points in bullets 5 and 6 are going to be the deciding factors.
As to item 4 previous, I am one of the people who believe that BART , among other goals, was designed from the getgo to supplant the then SP Peninsula line now CalTrain. Some facts. BART is non-standard guage thus completely incompatible with ANY other US Rail operation.. At the time this "engineering" decision was made, SP was virulently anti-passenger. The then Chairman of the SP BOD was S. D. Bechtel Sr. S. D. Jr. was also on the board. Bechtel corp, the family owned Construction firm was one of the three who formed the joint venture design/management group responsible for these decisions. The BART board at the time was not very independent. SP's attempts to junk the commuter service in the 70's included a public offer to buy each rider a vehicle to get them off the trains. The irony of history is that a nearly insolvent SP later ecstatically sold the line to the tri county Joint Powers Board, and CalTrain has since managed to increase ridership (new cars better service, d'oh) such that they exceeded their WWII records. And all of this for a line whose terminal is NOT in the CBD and forces users to transfer to poorly run local transit for the last mile.
In NY terms assume that instead of PATH, ALL the NJT riders at Hoboken had to take various buses (none express), or a badly run LR line to get to Manhattan.
Candidates:
The A - The first IND line, immortalized in song.
The 6 - Only subway line given a starring role in its own movie. (The 4 gets an honorable mention for its supporting role in "The Incident.")
The 1 - Simply because of its moniker and because it uses some of the oldest parts of the system.
The Times Square shuttle - One of the oldest shuttle lines in existence, and connects two of the most famous places in the world.
Suggestions?
Peace,
ANDEE
That's from a New Yorker's perspective. From an out-of-towner's perspective, I'd say: Hands down, The A train, no contest.
Mark
BTW, admist all the route changes and numbers conversions, the A line is the only shared route subway line that is untouched in major routing modifications (aside from improved Brooklyn express service). The 6, 7, L and the shuttles do not count because these routes cannot be physically modified and are not shared by other subway lines (Unless you count the late night 4 line sharing the same tracks at the 6). All lettered lines had some form of route changes here and there.
Ditto the W vs. West End Express. If you can forgive the A Line's being extended to East New York, then Lefferts and the Rockaways, add the M (same route since the 1920s, but extended to the Southern Division) and the R, not to mention the E and F.
E was originally to the Rockaways during rush hours before the CC line was extened to the Rockaways
F ended at 2nd ave and was extended to Coney Island in 1967.
M was rerouted from Brighton to West End line in May, 1986 (and that was supposed to be a temporary service change)
So these routes do not count, they were modifed one way or another.
A line was originally to Chambers Street, 1/31/33 extended to Jay Street/Borough Hall, 3/20/33 extended to Bergen Street, 10/7/33 extended to Church Avenue, Smith St. Line, 4/8/36 switched southern terminal to Rockaway Ave, Fulton Street Line, later to East New York, then Euclid Ave., then Lefferts Blvd. and some trains to Rockaway, etc., etc.
I understand your point but it needs some firmer logic. We might ask what current service has been unchanged for the longest time, and how minor a change "spoils the broth."
:-) Andrew
Immortalized by Bugs Bunny!
Regarding the 7 line, I think more than 100 distinct ehtnic groups have been identified as either living or working in the 11373 zip code area of Elmhurst, Queens. I heard it on WNYC 93.9 FM in early June 1998.
My mother was born in the 1930's and grew up one block from the Brooklyn Museum and lived there until she was married. She used the shuttle often and never heard of the Malbone Street wreck. I told it to her.
She is from the neighborhood, familiar with the line and is in her seventies. If she does not know of it (without me informing her) then no one will except a fan of urban transit. That is even more so for any out-of-towner.
Of course one of the most famous personalities of the 20th century claimed to have worked the Shuttle from Times Square to Grand Central - Bugs Bunny I don't see how that can be topped.
Vince
I guess I haven't wasted my life.
Vince
I totally disagree that statement. The new Franklin Ave shuttle, although the route has not changed, is still nothing compared to the old, crappy, unsafe, dark shuttle.
I hate it when people haven't rode the shuttle for decades and find excuses for making BMTman's favorite line worse than it really is.
The shuttle has seen the highest ridership, ever (thanks to the new IRT connection at Botanic Garden and safer, more inviting stations) and when they had a hearing about the plans for the shuttle to be renovated back in 1996 I was there speaking for the plan. So restoration or renovation works for the line, the community and the people. If only they could've saved the 3rd Ave el in the Bronx, but it's too late.
1. "A" Train...thanks to Duke Ellington and Billy Strayhorn.
2. "B" Train (now W)...thanks to the opening scene of "Saturday Night Fever"
3. "6" Train...thanks to "The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3"
Current:
"7" Train...thanks to "King of Queens" opening credits
1. "A" Train...thanks to Duke Ellington and Billy Strayhorn.
2. "B" Train (now W)...thanks to the opening scene of "Saturday Night Fever"
3. "6" Train...thanks to "The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3"
Current:
"7" Train...thanks to "King of Queens" opening credits
If so, Manhattan's Third Ave "el" is.
Bill "Newkirk:
If you were to go to Montana, or New Mexico, or London, and you were to ask this same question expecting a NYC answer, do you honestly expect someone to say the #6?
C'mon already, the A line is probably the WORLD'S most famous subway line.
Yeah, and it doesn't hurt that it stops at Pennsylvania Station (five oh oh oh).
Never heard of Jay-Z?
The M train can also be made famous if they made a deal with M&M/Mars (yes, I know people don't like the Brown M&M, but it conveys a meaning of chocolate).
>Never heard of Jay-Z?
Yeah, lucky guy is with Beyoncé :)
wayne
#3 West End Jeff
Mark
Bet that's a rockin' disc!
: )
Mark
Mark
Mark
If shuttles don't count (though this one's as long as some full-length lines in other cities) then I guess it's the (V).
:-) Andrew
:-) Andrew
Z (least famous)
G
M
L
J
Yeah, I agree it's the A train. I can show it to you in sales.
It is the top selling single train shirt my company makes.
Even folks too young or culturally deprived enough not to have heard
the song title like the A train shirts though. A as a quality or
grade is so positive. The #1 is also popular, I think because who
doesn't want to be #1?
Subway grrl
The Times Square Grand Central Shuttle was once worked by Bugs Bunny so its hard to beat that celebrity endorsement !
Vince
Nowadays, the crowds might turn to the Q train for a weekend trip to Coney Island once the terminal re-opens. But then again, some still might opt for the ol' reliable D train.
Regards,
Jimmy
Mark
I think the sales tax being collected could be used to electrify the Caltrain line and introduce frequent catenary or third-rail powered commuter service with improved ADA compliant platforms, integrated Santa Clara Transit bus terminals, and perhaps new light rail in San Jose itself connecting to the Caltrain.
Mark
False statement. CalTrain already does provide east bay commuters with access to Silicon Valley. What is does NOT do is provide a one-seat ride there. You have to transfer to Caltrain. System map
CalTrain has improved their schedule recently.
Look at this press release.
If I recall correctly, BART reaches speedsof 45-50 mph under the Bay and on longer stretches of track. Caltrain's speed limit between stations is 79 mph, unless that has changed recently (correct me here if I am wrong).
It would be more cost effective for BART to expand its web within San Francisco County and adjacent communities, while CalTrain upgrades ROW to a high speed (100 mph+) line.
Perhaps a separate CalTrain Line going straight from the East Bay to San Jose would be desired. This line would never actually cross the Bay; it would stay on the East Shore and head toward San Jose. Again, I would advocate a catenary-supplied commuter rail line with high speed (at least 100 mph) running.
As for operating characteristics, Caltrains is generally a 70mph railroad at present with 60mph north of Bayshore and some 75mph between Mountain View and Santa Clara. BART on the other hand generally reaches 75mph on the longer stretches. Of course, this does not reflect the projected speeds from the ongoing rebuilding. While Caltrains service will be faster with more trains come next Spring, it still doesn't address East Bay.
I sympathize with BART riders hanging out as far as Fremont, but the map shows your statement does not apply as you get into Oakland.
OK, so you want to expand the East Branch (my terminology) of BART, as opposed to creating another branch of the railroad to come north to meet it. OK, you've convinced me. Now let's find some money. The sales tax doesn't supply enough.
"As for operating characteristics, Caltrains is generally a 70mph railroad at present with 60mph north of Bayshore and some 75mph between Mountain View and Santa Clara."
That sucks. Gotta speed it up!
I did know know that! Gearloose, you withheld evidence undermining your claim!
Thanks, David.
The previous response from Dave V. that outlined the 6 points essentially mirrors my own opinion except that I don't consider the Capitol Service at present to be a real commuter option (bullet 1).
As for the points made in bullets 2,3,5 and 6, I wholeheartedly agree with them. I'm not sure what he means by bullet 4.
While I would much rather see a Caltrains type operation, I just have a feeling that it would be easier to sell the idea of extending BART. Regardless, Dave's points in bullets 5 and 6 are going to be the deciding factors.
As to item 4 previous, I am one of the people who believe that BART , among other goals, was designed from the getgo to supplant the then SP Peninsula line now CalTrain. Some facts. BART is non-standard guage thus completely incompatible with ANY other US Rail operation.. At the time this "engineering" decision was made, SP was virulently anti-passenger. The then Chairman of the SP BOD was S. D. Bechtel Sr. S. D. Jr. was also on the board. Bechtel corp, the family owned Construction firm was one of the three who formed the joint venture design/management group responsible for these decisions. The BART board at the time was not very independent. SP's attempts to junk the commuter service in the 70's included a public offer to buy each rider a vehicle to get them off the trains. The irony of history is that a nearly insolvent SP later ecstatically sold the line to the tri county Joint Powers Board, and CalTrain has since managed to increase ridership (new cars better service, d'oh) such that they exceeded their WWII records. And all of this for a line whose terminal is NOT in the CBD and forces users to transfer to poorly run local transit for the last mile.
In NY terms assume that instead of PATH, ALL the NJT riders at Hoboken had to take various buses (none express), or a badly run LR line to get to Manhattan.
First set of blue RCA barrier has a shiny new single escalator being installed, it is 80% complete. I presume this will be an up escalator. The smaller little RCA barrier just behind the escalator has the ADA elevator. 2004 is coming and so is this new passageway connecting Lexington and 3rd Ave mezzanines.
Tick Tock!
"RCA?"
Out of towners...you gotta come back here and visit once in a while so incidents like this don't happen!!!
RCA = restricted clearance area
"Do not stand in the RCA"
And I was referring to you postings that matter and you advocate ADA access to any typew of rail system, as well as keep us abreast of all future expansion plans on SAS, ESA, SF realingment, and other matters.
Seriously, thanks for the compliment.
Your welcome.
R-32.
The Kansas City Area Transportation Authority offers sparse service, though their drivers are friendly and very helpful and courteous. There will be an additional cut in service next year unless a sales tax increase is approved. Even now, you could probably find a NYCTA bus line (or maybe more than one) that carries, all by itself, twice as many passengers per day as the entire KCATA system combined.
On the web: KC Transit
On the web: KC Transit
You forgot to close the anchor with "< /a >"
(All I need now are the black stripes on the border, but I don't know how to do that with Cascading Style Sheets. I don't even know if that's possible!)
Not many people pay attention to these signs, though.
Other than that I don't think the track layout of the original route has changed much in 99 years.
3348-3549/3382-3831/3420-3645/3444-3777/3470-3919
That's just one combination. AND, none of those cars on this train has another car in it whose number is ±1 from any other car. I think this would be interesting to see, wouldn't you?
I think the MTA has taken this political correctness one step two far. The "married pairs" used to be marriage amongst equals, but now they have so much "interracial marriage". Before soon you will see Redbirds in a "married pair" with R142s. AEM7
Is not Redbirds, then maybe R142A's.
7111-7112-7213-7114-7115
R-32.
R-32.
3418 and 3419. Saw them today on an E train and got a pic of them at 7th Avenue/53 St. How can you tell the A end is showing? The B cab doesn't have the air gauge, the speedometer or the other motorman's controls that an A cab has. It'll be up tomorrow.
NUTTIN wrong with that, brah!!!
Just last week I walked into my Frankford-bound house by mistake.
: )
Mark
Indian accents + cursing = funny
One time while on the 6 train the conductor said "PLEASE LET GO OF THE DOORS, THERE IS ANOTHER TRAIN DIRECTLY BEHIND THIS ONE, LOOK U CAN SEE THE HEADLIGHTS!!!"
She was right, I peeked out of the train and saw the headlights. It was waiting for us to leave the station.
It's good to know I'm not the only one who does things like that.
R-10s pulling in, stopping and doors opening when Windows opens.
R-10 doors open when opening a Windows program.
R-10 doors close when a Windows program closes.
R-27 doors close when a print command executes.
R-46 door chimes (out of tune), brakes release and train starts up when new email is received.
Conductor announces, "Euclid Ave. will be the next and last stop on this train. Euclid Ave. will be the next stop. Stand clear of the doors." R-27 doors close, load sensing valve beeps, brakes release when computer is shut down.
I don't care how much the conversion to diesel and rubber tires cost you, BRING THE REDBIRD BACK TO 207!
It must be a sign that you are too preoccupied with something rail.
Two weeks that leave you too tired to return to work, and too broke not to.
:-) Andrew
-You turn off your headlights while waiting in the drive-thru line
to get up to the service window at McDonald's. (T/O's turn off their
headlights when waiting in the conga line to get into Terminal 242)
-You tell your FEMALE passengers "Watch the closing doors" after you
seat them and are about to shut their car door. (Courtesy, no?).
I am guilty of committing the above.
x__1SouthFerry9___
Confucius says: Man who go thru AirTrain turnstile sideways going to Bangkok.
9. You stand next to a park bench
8. Your alarm clock sounds like the BEEEP BEEEP of the next train indicator display.
7. You know that batteries are too expensive in a store.
6. When typing a letter, you mistakely type G.O. instead of the word "go".
5. You are at a move theater and you use a door that says "Emergency Exit Only."
4. You are sitting in a restaurant, closest to the front door. An eldery woman comes in and you offer her your seat, and in the process take you and your food to another table.
3. You use your credit card at an ATM, and you insert it the wrond way, vertical like your Metrocard.
2. You know you wear a watch, but you look at the Metrocard display for the time.
1. And for the biggest symptom of all (Drumroll please):
You drive your car in Canarsie and go through the B42 gate and on the bus ramp, park your car and take the L train in to work.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Aww crap I got that problem. :-P
When you're leaving the house, before you close the door, you say "Stand Clear of the Closing Doors".
When you're driving, you stop at yellow lights, because you think you're being held by the dispatcher.
You stop at a red traffic light and tell the people in the car with you "We are being held by a red signal. We shall be moving momentarily, please be patient."
When you're sick, you call and say you're Out Of Service.
As you approach a green light, you tap the horn several times in a beep-beep, beep-beep pattern.
You pump the brake pedal while stopped, trying to hear that familiar air hissing sound.
and you repeatedly deal with situations by reciting a R142 announcement:
Person blocking the sidewalk with their firkin huge stroller
You think - "Ladies and gentlemen for your safety, please do not block the sidewalk while the train is in the station"
Articulated bus shows up to a given stop with a standing load against the front and rear doors:
You think- "Ladies and gentlemen, riding on the outside of buses is dangerous. please Remain on the inside of the car."
Someone is blocking a door or hallway:
You- Get closer and closer, and even closer until you are basically towering over them.
Main stairwell is not moving- It is jammed with students, because we took in an additional 240 freshmen this year, compared to last.
You think- "Ladies and gentelman, we are being held momentarily by the train dispatcher. Please be patient"
Right before your temper explodes
You think - *BIE* "This is the last stop on the train. Everyone please leave the train, thank you for riding MTA New York City transit"
Who came up with this idea on this board, cause I know someone did, and it was not me.
No, I hear you. I've done that but it entails opening up each old message and reading it. I've searched under my screen name, chronologically from 01/01/03 to 03/31/03 and came up with a long list of messages I've posted. At least a hundred. Too many to be bothered with. So I decided to forgo further searching for the posting. It don't matter much anyway.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh well, I prefer participating in the game show Twenty One instead.
The IRT mezzanine level (below the platforms) is taking shape. Bright lighting and tile work is now evident, each platform will have three modes of exit. Manhattan-bound 2 and 3 has one double set of stairs and a single. 4 and 5 center platform now has three staircases or which the south stairs has a glass floor nearby. The S/B 2 and 3 platform has not seen much radical change yet besides the new passageway directly to the platform from the Pacific St side. Elevators can be seen being installed at the following locations:
1. At street level on 4th Ave and Pacific St, behind P.C. Richard store
2. 3 elevators to IRT platforms, two are to the side of the south stairs of the 7th Ave platforms, the elevator to the 4 and 5 platform is seen behind the double stairs.
4. Elevator to the Brighton line is where the old staircase was closed off, it is next to the egg slicers leading to LIRR tracks 5 and 6.
5. Elevators to the Pacific St side are to the front end of the platform, most likely spot.
Now here's something interesting at the LIRR:
A new staircase to street level is open P/T on Tracks 1 and 2 at the far eastern side of the station, it leads out to the Pathmark store across the street. This is where you would usually board the first car of the train so it's a long walk to the ticket booth and waiting area if you need them. Another staircase may open up from tracks 3 and 4.
Peace,
ANDEE
That is correct, but they are taking their steamer to Mystic, i.e. off their RxR. That's where they need trackage rights permission of who ever. In recent years these RxRs have put up bigger obsticles bacause they don't what to have to be worried about "it" breaking down & inconveniencing THEM. The problem is that they are not railfans and the trip doesn't fit into their profit plans.
www.wmsr.com
Mark
I bought a "No Smoking" sign there paid I think $3 for it, maybe $5, but no more that that.
There is an identical sign for sale now on eBay, currently $150!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2193425027&category=4152
The eastbound backup at about 9:20 goes from Main Street back to about Junction Blvd and beyond. If someone needs to get to Flushing at that time, good luck- Allow at least 10-15 extra minutes to get to Main Street. Is this because of trhe construction on the yard leads?
Thirdly, there are little yellow signs posted saying that Manhattan bound express trains run on the local track from 10AM to 3PM. For the 15-20 minutes I was at Willets Point ( 9:30- 9:50), the expresses came on the local track. There were no announcements and people waiting on the express platform were running back and forth when they saw a train. You have to go down and under a tunnel to get from express to local track ( Manhattan bound). At one point, a yard train came through on the express track and everyone on the local platform ran down and around only to see the train run right through the station.
This is very poor subway running and customer relations. Sad- I can remember when the Flushing Line was a shining star for NYCT.
I guess someone at the TA forgot that the last Manhattan bound express leaves Main Street at 12:09 P.M.?
Yet another reason I don't go through Flushing unless I have to. My "commute" to Queens College takes me through Kew Gardens.
How many Redbirds did I see in revenue service? Zero. :-(
I miss them already.
http://www.timesnewsweekly.com/NewFiles/ANNOUNCEMENTS%20GET%20WORSE.html
See story here.
One funny thing is that they call the old turntable a train Merry-go-round".
And where do LIRR trains stop now? Are we talking about a working station?
The new high platform is further west along the track.
Cool.
There is a new high platform away from the building and yard, but trains usually go to the yard from there, then go back to the platform for the return trip.
The original platform canopy was longer and was cut back years ago.
Bill "Newkirk"
: )
Mark
We received the e-mail below from you regarding our appearance on
KCET. channel 28 los angeles california
you said
..."We are sorry that you felt we were smug and arrogant"...????...!
MY ANSWER IS
I was not "smug and arrogant"...!!
you said again
" we were referring specifically the to Pacific
Electric. we were discussing the
much broader subject of fixed rail transit in America. We were not.
Our comments were related to the Pacific Electric only."
MY ANSWER IS AGAIN
That you did include all of the rail transit systems in north america
i look at the TAPE again and these words came right out of your mouth
into the KCET camera !!
you said again
"Regarding the demise of the P.E., the facts simply do not support a
conspiracy by any one group or organization. The causes for the
demise of the P.E. are these:"
BUT THE TRUTH IS is was deliberately done !
why did you not comment on the success of the LACMTA gold & blue lines ??
you said
"1) Aging infrastructure which the Southern Pacific had not
maintained. As a private corporation, the S.P. could not make a
profit if it was to lay out the cash needed to rebuild the system
after WWII."
So who maintained the right of ways after that ? and THE PAVING OVER OF IT ?
the same taxpayers at TWICE THE EXPENSE ??
you said again
"2) Taxes?...!. The tax burden on street railways was crippling. Nearly
half the taxes paid in L.A. county came from the P.E. and the LARY.
It was enormous and a major business consideration."
TAXES ? the same TAXES that was DOUBLE paying for buses ??
who paid for the DEMOLITION ? ........we did of cource !!
AND MILLIONS MORE TO REBUILD Only 70 miles of what once was !!.....??
you said...
"3) The switch to bus service (begun by the P.E. itself in the 1920s)
was born out of economic expediency. A bus running on public streets
does not have to maintain a rail infrastructure, nor does it have to
pay taxes on those rails."
BUT BUSES HAVE TO COMPETE WITH CARS PICKUP TRUCKS VANS AUTOMOBILES AND TAKE 6 TIMES AS LONG AS RAIL RIGHT OF WAYS!
this same jive was done to detroit now it takes all day to go to work on public
transportation there !!
YOU INSIST AS IT WAS THEN THAT THE BUS IS BETTER TIME PROVES THIS NOT!
you said
"4) The Pacific Electric asked the highway department to help lay
tracks down the center of freeways as they were being built in
Southern California. The Highway Department refused. The P.E. was a
private company and tax dollars could not be used to support a
private company".
WE ASKED FOR THE SAME THING WHEN THE RED LINE SUBWAY 2 NOWHERE
WAS FIRST BUILT WHATS NEW ABOUT THAT ?
one line did run down the hollywood freeway and they do this in chicago now !!
and atlanta and washington dc !! ...SO WHATS THE BIG DEAL ?
once again your tall tale falls flat on its face !!
you said
"4) Southern Pacific offered the P.E. to the city of Los Angeles, but
L.A. didn't want it. The S.P. then turned to the Metropolitan Coach
Lines, another private company. Once again, economics drove the
situation. Buses were cheaper for the company to run. Even so, they
could not make a go of the enterprise".
THE TRUTH IS AND EVERYBODY KNOWS IT THE PE SYSTEM WAS ALLOWED TO DIE BY ALL OF THE "organized conspirators"...
THEY SURE HAVE WHAT THEY WANT NOW DO THEY NOT ?
jammed freeways bumper 2 bumper traffic and look at all of that OIL being burned !
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
you said again ...................."jeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzh"
"5) In the end, it was a public agency, the first MTA that got rid of
the last Red Cars."
BUT THE TRUTH IS THAT THE SAME SYSTEM IS NEEDED NOW MORE THAN EVER BEFORE AND ONLY 70 MILES HAS BEEN RESTORED !
the same LACMTA admits they were abandoned and defunded and yes
well organized '"organized conspirators"
ONE THING FOR SURE THEY GOT WHAT THEY WANTED DIDNT THEY ?
JAMMED TRAFFIC ALL WITH PERTOLEUM BURNING VEHICLES !!
you said again.
"It is always easier to find a person or corporation to blame, to say,
"They did it, it's their fault!" You are probably aware that in the
late 40's General Motors was indicted on three counts in regard to
the conversion of street railways to bus service. Two of these
counts charged that GM bought into rail companies in order to abandon
rail in favor of bus service. The third count charge that GM
insisted that it's buses be used by the companies in which it was
partnered. Are you also aware that General Motors was found NOT
GUILTY on the conspiracy charges? They were found guilty of
insisting that companies they were involved in buy GM product.
However, the offense was so minor that they were fined one dollar and
sent on their way.
The fact is, there is plenty of blame to go around but, there was no
organized conspiracy, at least not as far as the P.E. was concerned.
It was a question of economics, infrastructure and taxes. It was
also a matter of public apathy. At the time when the last street
rail lines were being abandon, Amerians generally, and Southern
Californians in particular, sincerely felt that freeways were the
answer to interurban transportation. That has, of course, been
proven wrong. However, at the time, it was the prevailing thought."
AGAIN YOU FAILED TO MENTION HOW THE SUCCESS OF LIGHT RAIL
IS RUNNING OVER THE SAME PACIFIC ELECTRIC LINE RIGHT OF WAYS
THAT REMAIN !
EVERYONE WITH A BRAIN KNOWS THIS WAS WRONG TO DESTROY THE RAIL
SYSTEMS OF AMERICA IN DETROIT AND ALL ACROSS THE COUINTRY
not just and only the PACIFIC ELECTRIC SYSTEM !!
i remember when the last of the PCC cars were gone
IT WAS HELL GETTING AROUND IN A BUS EVER SINCE !!
you said..
"Our documentary, which you should see, was done by interviewing
people from Orange Empire, Pacific Railway Foundation, etc. These
are true P.E. fans. To a person, they all expressed the same view."
WHO PAID YOU TO DO THIS THE OIL COMPAINIES THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION
COMPANIES ??
why were you to so dammed arrogant in you PROTECTING THEM ??
you said
"we are so happy to see that
conspiracy theory put to rest!"
THE TRUTH IS YOU did not put anything to rest !
YOU PROVED IT EVEN WORSE !!
you should have been more considerate of those of us who are transit dependant
and those of us who need and use public transportation nationwide
IF THE OIL COMPANIES AND INTERNAL COMBUSTION COMPANIES
HAD IT THIER WAY THE SUBWAY SYSTEM IN NEW YORK PHILADEPHIA
BOSTON CHICAGO WHOPULD HAVE BEEN DISMANTELED AND DESTROYED
( just like they did poor little PACIFIC ELECTRIC system in southern california )
at least you could have done something with todays LACMTA GOLD LINE
& BLUE LINE success stories !
SORRY FOLKS BUT YOU PROVED US RIGHT
your arrogance on this is amazing !!
enjoy your ride in your private automobile
ONE DAY YOU MIGHT ALSO BECOME TRANSIT DEPENDANT TOO !
( when you loose your drivers liscense ) .................lol .........!!
SALAAM ALLAH ...................
The term videographer would sound more official than video maker. Video maker sounds like you're assembling video cassettes in your kitchen !!
Bill "Newkirk"
er.....There is one R-142A image and one R-143 image in the 2004 edition, just to warn you. However, there is an image of Redbird #9056 in Washington D.C. on the ground with the Washington Monument in the background. #9056 "sleeps with the fishes" as Richard Castellano would say in the Godfather.
I gotta go now, gavity is pulling my eyelids shut and I don't want to use my keyboard as a pillow !
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
--Mark
------------------------------------------------------------------
This afternoon I was lucky enough to get to railfan a redbird on the <7> from Times Square all the way to Main St. The car I was in was 9699. The fastest we went was 42 MPH, and the trip took 28 minutes and 30 seconds. Some of the beige paint near the storm door was peeling off, revealing the original sky-blue paint. I tried to pick at the rest, but it was stubborn and wouldn't come off. You never know....I may never get to ride a redbird again.
Goodbye. =(
I've made a half dozen "last Redbird ride" pilgrimages to the 7 line, and will make the last next Thursday, although I think my chances of seeing any in action will be slim.
-Stef
http://video.c-span.org:8080/ramgen/odrive/15days/e093003_gunn1.rm
Requires Real Player.
Anyways he asnwered questions on a possible Amtrak strike, and pretty much answered, he didn't expect one to happen. I'm not sure if that answers the question.
Anyways the R143 that a few of us spotted at West 4 St was testing out a new set of stripmaps.
Here is the URL for pictures: http://www.straphangers.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=004457#000023
http://www.straphangers.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=004457#000023
Robert
Let's hope they use these signs in the 160's AND retrofit the 142/143's!
http://webpage.pace.edu/al99496n/R143_3.jpg
I've realized:
Its not a full LED panel, but rather a template with certain sections cut out for information. Look at the "line" on the strip map and the words "Further stops" and "Last stop". They're much too clear to be LED. Compare to the size of the other LED's, if it was full LED those letters and lines would be jagged.
As to it being a mockup:
1. On the same note, some of the white text used for the route indicators is too crisp (especially the big A). Again the letter would appear jagged as the words in the orange and green LEDs.
2. LEDs tend to shift color slightly and brightness at angles (LEDs look brightest dead on). These dont, making me believe these are printed signs.
3. Look at the "display" where the two floursecent fixtures meet. The LEDs obviosuly become dimmer. If it were an LED panel they may be dimmer, but not as noticable.
I still say its printed because some of my points are valid for LCD panels too. Try looking at a flat panel monitor from an angle, colors shift and fade, while in the photo everything appears uniform.
So David J. Greenberger is offer limit afterware.
HUH!?
Passed two other Redbird sets, both light, one Manhattan-bound somewhere around 74th, the other Manhattan-bound (or, more likely, yard-bound) leaving Main Street.
This trip was entirely unplanned. I was at 42nd and 5th, and, rather than walk to Times Square, I figured I'd take the 7 one stop, just in case a Redbird set was running. I stopped to take this photo:
But the annunciator had already started chirping, so I ran downstairs, and there it was!
N9582-9583-9318-9721-9720-9714-9715-9652-9653-9586-9587S.
If anyone's ever wanted a signbox, 9714's has grown a handle:
The return trip was a surprise, too: I boarded none other than R-62A 1668, with red yard stripes. As of September 18, car 1668 was still on the 1/9. When did it move to Corona? More importantly, why did it move to Corona, and what is 240 gaining in return?
Did you try sticking your hand in that rusty crevasse above the roll-sign?
So is the exciting experience of tetanus. ;)
They're swapping cars. For what reason I don't know. Some more are supposed to go over soon.
240's maintenance is bar none, IMO, in particular in the HVAC department. We already gave up some of our cars for Pelham's; why are we now giving up more?
Like anyone shopping for a classic 1950's car, you always carry magnets so you can be sure of what's under da paint. They fell.
BTW, when you get a magnet to stick to a '53 vette, you're in trouble. :)
Yep, they just crack and shatter. I had a friend who had an '83 (supposedly was an '83) who had some moron cut him off and he rearended the guy at about 45. Front fenders basically turned to dust. Engine through the firewall stopped him from going through the windshield though. :)
That's why I'm glad my 'bird was made before they switched over to that plastic crap Saturn uses.
Railcar manufacturers though could probably use some of that lightweight plastic stuff for certain parts of the carbody in areas not likely to se a hard hit.
#3 West End Jeff
It still doesn't account for the R-33 mainlines. I never saw anything remotely like that on a 2/5 R-33, but they were all rushed out of service by March.
:-) Andrew
--Mark
Not really!
I think folks here would be more interested in meeting Avid Reader or Heypaul since both appear to be enigmas. Not sure if either of them really exist anymore...
Who cares about meeting people, I want to get a train at 76th Street.
Easy, go to Pitkin Yard and hop on a train going in service there. Then hop off at 76th Street, if you can see the station.
Only after he sells his automobile (even non-transit buffs who live in Manhattan don't own cars, let alone a so called "transit buff!), and after he agrees to do some more suburban rail and bus riding! ;-)
Insurance is a cost, but so is selling. The car is worth a lot more than I'd conceivably get for it.
I didn't get the car when I lived in Manhattan. Although I have a job now, I'm still looking for a permanent position (the one I have is available permanently if I want to keep it, but I don't think I do), which may take me out of the city. Why sell a perfectly good car now for a few dollars when I may have to go right out and buy a replacement for a lot more?
Now, could someone please explain to me why I'm defending my choice to own an automobile to somebody I've never even met?
Now, now, there are no hard feelings here. If you saw my origianl post, I did include a ";-)" afterward.
Anyhow, I was just curious, that's all. You have to admit that it seems odd that someone who lives in Manhattan who loves riding subways and buses would own a car. You're more than welcome to ask questions of me like why did I move from Brooklyn to New Jersey when I claim to be a New York City subway/bus buff. Feel free to ask away if you wish!
Some trips were to take me to The Hospital for Special Surgery for operations to my arm and leg (I have CP). If I recall correctly, the hospital didn't offer much in the way of parking back then. Buses were not handicapped accessible and neither was the subway, and I had casts on and sometimes needed a wheelchair coming out of the hospital.
SEND IN THE LIONS!!!!
But there is a legal place to do that, it's all on the outside of a building on the Manhattan-bound #7 train side as the train makes the second right curve before dipping into Hunters Point Ave. The building is a sight to see all the real artists renting space to legally spray their "tags" on the building.
Except for the V line, the auto-installers should install the files to the correct directories.
If not you may need to reinstall BVE itself(doesn't delete any of your routes...) or I just zipped them for you if that's the case.....
I'm thinking when things get installed to the wrong dir, it's impossible to figure out what belongs and what doesn't then thigns mess up.
Any others?
CG
They're hoping to have enough in the budget next year to buy enough string to reach all the way to Atlantic Avenue.
CG
I was on that train that day [don't ask]. I was SHOCKED...I'm surprised the thing even HAS a W in it.
another question, i saw an ad for passbooks in the chief, is it worth the $22.99 for the book plus $5 for shipping? i want to score as high as possible and get hired as soon as possible.
any advice for the test or how to study or any good study guides will be greatly appreciated.
thanks.
tim
tim
future conductor
You and a few 4928349823 others in here do too! :)
good luck.
tim
the chief
277 broadway suite 1506
new york, ny 10007
(212)962-2690
i think thats the subscription information, not sure about back issues and the like.
heres the application: http://www.mta.info/nyct/hr/pdf/examapp.pdf
print that out.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcas/pdf/conductor.pdf
this is the notice of examination for the conductor exam. it has all the info you need. print this and the application out and you are set.
tim
Jimmy
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/hr/appexam.htm
The actual forms are Adobe PDF files, ready to print out ...
Wall Street on the 1 was how I got there myself when I worked at the corner of Beaver and Broad (heh, hey Beavis!) but then that's the way I was coming. A GOOD conductor will tell you how to get where you wanna go from where you ARE. But civil service tests ain't designed to see how smart you are (they'd tell you from WHAT train) ... they're designed to answer what was expected. I grew UP in the city and WORKED in the city for half my life. All over. I woulda gotten it wrong TOO. :)
Best of luck to ya ... still going for motors?
Peace,
ANDEE
The TA needs to get word out that the T/O and C/R have the ability to open EVERY door in event of emergency. Its a simple keyswitch (or regular switch on the 68/As). Barring electrical fault it will work.
And if the train loses 3rd rail power, those doors will unlock. Power is needed to keep them locked.
Robert
The problem is that the crew won't know of an emergency (or hazardous situation) aboard the train as there's no way to signal them other than pulling the emergency brake cord, which is usually the wrong thing to do. They need to add an emergency signal/intercom box to each car, as PATH has had for years and the TA has on the newer equipment.
Which leads me to a question. What is considered acceptable use of the intercom? Does it have to be a bona fide emergency? What about a general question that needs to be answered quickly? For instance, if I'm on a SB 2 (daytime) train that switches to the local track at 96th, I need to know right away if it's going to make local stops, since I get off at 86th. At least 90% of the time, the canned announcement plays in either case, without the C/R piping in to clarify or correct, so that's of no help. When I feel the train crossing the switch, I start running back through the train to the C/R's position, so I can jump out and quickly ask him when the doors open at 96th, but I'd rather not have to do that if I can use the intercom.
It isn't always possible to backtrack. This happened to me one weekend when all NB service from 72nd to 96th was on the express track, so I had to go back to 96th and try again. In fact, that time I didn't bother to ask the C/R, because all 2/3 trains were supposed to make local stops SB -- except that the crew on my train either hadn't read the GO or didn't care. When I questioned the C/R at 72nd, he claimed he knew of no such GO, but when I pointed out that I couldn't simply backtrack, he did seem just a bit apologetic.
About two months ago, I was on a NB 3 that switched to the local track at 72nd. The C/R made a crystal clear announcement (through the R-62 exterior speakers, too, which I thought were nonfunctional) that the train was running express to 96th, and that local passengers should wait on the platform for a local. So I got off, and the next train in was a 2. The canned announcement played, and some of the people who got off the 3 got on, but when I ran up to the C/R and asked him in person, he said that he was going express.
For some reason, C/R's on R-142's are loath to make any manual announcements at all, even to correct or clarify an automated announcement that's incorrect or misleading. IMO, whenever a train enters a station on a track it doesn't usually use (at that time of day), the C/R should be required to manually announce the next stop, whether express or local. (OTOH, C/R's are already required to correct the outdated announcements, but 95% of the time IME, they don't bother.)
Bear in mind that the more basic problem is this: the 75 footers behave that way because of their geometry - and nothing will change that. Their truck centres are pushed further under the car - farther from the ends of the cars than on the 60 and 51 footers. With railroad cars, any end of the car to the out side of the truck pivot will overhang to the outside of the turn - just like the front corner of a bus. Any part of the car between the truck centres (pivots) will overhang to the inside of the turn. That said, the further the truck is from the end of the car, the more will overhang toward the outside of any given turn. The trouble comes (or is more pronounced) when one car has entered the curvature while the next one hasn't; such as at a turnout. Once they are all in the turn together, they all look the same, and none is conspicuous. Once there is a transition, though, car-ends get misaligned - and severely so when the end of the car is that far away from the truck pivot.
Actually, all cars do this to a greater or lesser extent - including the 60 footers and the IRT. It's just that they don't have as dramatic a distance from the truck centre to the end of the car. The only way to absolutely eliminate that phenomenon would be to technically have the truck pivot at the extreme end of the car - practically impossible except in between cars as in the case of articulateds (hence the BMT D-types). Try this out on model trains - seriously.
Lastly, if you want to check the distances between the truck centres and the ends of cars, and truck centres themselves, a good resource for that data is the ubiquitous "New York City Subway Cars" by Greller. It has line drawings desribing the dimensions of each car (R types only). Examine the measurements: first check the IRT's, then the 60 footers, and last the 75 footers. This truck distance even explains the different rhythm the 75 footers have when they hit the track - as compared to the other cars.
R-32.
On the old fashioned cars, there were end vedtibules, you were stepping throught the diaghphram from one vestibule to another.
even the old subway cars had their storm doors recessed about one foot, giving you a solid place to stand, on one car of the other when moving from car to car.
The 75 footers do not have this, IIRC the storm doors are flush with the ends of the cars, with little or no place to stand outside of the car.
*Then* you take the corner at Canal Street, and you find out what rats like to eat.
Elias
You want to see really tight turns? Chicago El! As tight as the exaggerated curves you see on model trains...
As I recall, the curve between Wabash and Lake Street is extremely tight (and was the site of a serois derailment/accident), and then there is the nasty "S"-curve at the other end of Wabash, where Green Line trains head to the original "Alley El".
R-32.
**********************************************************************
Can someone please explain how these TEA bills work???
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09292003.shtml#TEA
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Hey, if they tax the road traffic a little more fairly and use it to improve the railroads, all the better.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09292003.shtml#Transport
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Hey, why build new? NYC has an "under-sports-arena" station that isn't doing them any good and it has made a policy of exporting its trash to the other parts of the country.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09292003.shtml#Amtrak
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I think this was posted, but D/F is Boston based so this is their home turf.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09292003.shtml#Spring
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While CT residents are all up in arms, I applaud CDoT for saving money and not giving up on trains that still have some useful life left in them. Shame the LIAR couldn't have the same forsight.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09292003.shtml#ConnDOT
Well, I guess we should be grateful ConnDOT did anything at all. They were probably dragged kicking and screaming even to do this much.
"Shame the LIAR couldn't have the same forsight."
Shame on Jersey Mike for posting such drivel. LIRR made an excellent move to best serve riders. That's riders, Mike, remember? Customer service, comfort, a/c, eright? We're not talking about railfan windows here. :0)
If the TA had focused on rehabilitating an rebuilding Redbirds and never bought the R44-46-62-68-142 etc., then hypothetically they could have put all that money into renewing stations, ADA, or building part of the SAS. You'd have rusted-out crates, which nobody wants to ride, rolling on those tracks, but what the hell.
The M1s are stainless, so the carbodies don't rust, but that doesn't mean it pays to refurbish them for the next 25 years.
But then you have motors, compressors, suspensions, A/C, brakes, trucks, door mechanisms, PA systems; seats. And you have changing expectations of what kind of service people want.
I thought the R1-9 type cars were cute. I loved riding them as a child growing up in the Bronx. If you put enough effort into it, you could make those last 50 years, too - but nobody would want to ride them today except rail buffs.
Subtalk is full of railbuffs. What you read here is not typical of what 7 million people a day expect from subway service.
Actually, that's a great reason NOT to stick with older cars. ADA regulations are absolutely unimportant and are a complete waste of time and money, as long as you are not:
-In a wheelchair
-Have difficulty because of diabetes, heart or lung disease, injury to the legs
-Have cerebral palsy
-Blind
-have multiple sclerosis, muscular dystrophy, inner ear disease
-Osteoporotic and prone to fractures
If you are in any of these categories, hey, SOL, right?
- Old.
- Really, really tired.
- Pushing a baby stroller.
- Carrying a lot of bags.
- Had a stroke lately.
- Developmentally disabled, affecting the muscles.
- On crutches (a big one, I see all the time)
- Have one of those little bikes (allowed on all commuter cars).
Funny how the disabled aren't "them" any more.
By definition it is not a problem; it is a responsibility the transit system has always had and was deficient in fulfilling. When people (like you) age or become sufficiently infirm so that driving becomes unsafe, the ADA-compliant transit system is there to transport. If you can afford it, you'll have your own limousine with a personal driver. Or you can use a taxi. If not, you use transit.
Put it another way: Paratransit services are more expensive to run than trains. A large % (but clearly not all) of paratransit trips can be shifted to transit, saving a lot of taxpayer money in the long haul.
In the United States, this is a basic human right by law. In Taiwan, perhaps, it is not. But this is not Taiwan.
Put it another way: Paratransit services are more expensive to run than trains. A large % (but clearly not all) of paratransit trips can be shifted to transit, saving a lot of taxpayer money in the long haul.
I think your entire paradigm for viewing the world is different from mine. In my view, most things should be funded by user fees and almost nothing is a fundamental right. Fundamental rights are defined in the Constitution: right to vote, right not to get killed, right to carry weapons. Everything else is extra, and you expect to pay for them.
You're a Democrat, perhaps. I'm a Economist.
AEM7
That's fine - but in practice, you are at odds with the federal statutes and a lot of Supreme Court decisions. Good luck getting all of that reversed. A lot of people will not vote with you here.
"Fundamental rights are defined in the Constitution: right to vote, right not to get killed, right to carry weapons."
Try again on two points: The Constitution does not guarantee your right not to get killed: we have mandatory draft registration which could get you killed in the army were the draft to be resurrected, and the state has the right to execute you for certain defined crimes.
The Constitution's Second Amendment allows states to constitute militias; the Supreme Court has ruled on more than one occasion that the Second Amendment does NOT guarantee you the right to carry a weapon yourself. Unless you can change the wording of the Amendment to remove what you presumably consider to be its unwanted opening phrase, (the one before the comma) or get the Supreme Court to reverse itself, you're out of luck. Again, there will be lots of people who would oppose such an effort.
"You're a Democrat, perhaps. I'm a Economist."
I'm an independent pragmatist.
... as they have done on many occasions, most recently w.r.t. abortion(?)
Sometimes I think the whole U.S. political scene is just a circus ring, especially in Washington D.C.. Seems to me that at the end of the day money ($) talks, and right now the ADA lobby has more money than the transit lobby (a sad state of affairs).
AEM7
The transit lobby does not oppose the ADA lobby.
Of course you could exten your world view this way:
Adolf Hitler advocated that getting rid of the mentally or physically infirm would help Germany grow strong and unburden society of taking care of the weak.
In this country, like-minded people to the Nazis would take exception to an Asian man doing anything except menial labor for slave wages, on the grounds that the ethnic or genetic purity of the country is wrecked otherwise.
Of course, Japan held that view near and dear (and there is still that element in the culture, unfortunately).
I like the law the way it is...
They knew from the beginning that there was a gray area in between, including the common defense, common grazing areas, churches, civic buildings and a lot of other REALLY EXPENSIVE things that COMMUNITIES had to pull together and pay for. With TAXES. Things like ROADS, which they were getting a little sick of all those nasty tollkeepers ripping them off for, so they set up the first village highways.
If we're going to have real, competetive public transportation, it has to be better than driving. Carmakers don't make SUV's that Granny can't squeeze into. Why should Kawasaki?
Evidently, they make cars that blind people cannot drive, so that's why Kawasaki is left to fend for itself installing annoying beeping devices that says the doors are closing, little braille dots on all the signs that collect dust, and a whole host of other things...
If ADA compliance can be applied to transit, they can be applied to the highways. Whatever happened to the Intelligent Vehicle-Highway System that was supposed to allow blind people to drive by wire, and non-blind people to drive both more fuel efficiently and read papers while driving?
AEM7
Well, I can answer at least one of those questions.
In 1936 Charles Pogue invented a carbeurator which preheated fuel to encourage more efficient combustion. Trouble was, a smaller amount of fuel exploding produced less energy. Less energy meantlower acceleration. The car could achieve 60 or 100 mpg fuel economy, but had all the vigor of a garden snail.
What do you suppose that product's elasticity of demand would be? My guess is, not very elastic.
What do you suppose that product's elasticity of demand would be? My guess is, not very elastic.
Seems to me that the public has voted with their dollars, and decided that to allow blind people to drive is not in their interest, and therefore refused to fund the IVHS demonstration program. It is also possible that many passengers do not care whether blind people can ride transit or not. So what about we set up a price differential. When you go buy your Metrocard, you can buy one with ADA contribution and one without. All the enhancement would be ADA compliant, but you would only pay for the ADA portion if you elect to buy an ADA contribution Metrocard. Let's see if the fully-attributed ADA-compliance costs can compete with the non-ADA-compliant transit system, in the view of its riders...
AEM7
This is where ideas of social justice come into play. Yes, we want an open free economy. Yes we want choices. But the US does not run on purely Libertarian principles. It is a mercantilist society - it sits neither on the purely free market end, nor on the "command economy" (an oxymoron, obviously) model.
I'm closer to thye center position; you're sitting out at the end.
Re: the ADA-enhanced Metrocard, if the American public really believed in the kind of ideologue you are talking about (i.e. they actively want to look after the weaker people), then you might see that everyone buys ADA-enhanced Metrocard and the price of that drop to an extent that the prices become very similar (you'd have to load the administrative costs of the non-ADA versions on the non-ADA riders only).
I suspect if you tried this (hypothetical) experiment, you'd see that everyone buys non-ADA. America is just not as "progressive" (or whatever you call it) as idealogists would like. If even 50% of the population bought the ADA-Metrocards, I think I would buy one too. But the USA is simply not there yet.
In Sweden, or Norway, if you try this experiment, you might actually see something like 75% of people buy the ADA-compliant versions.
AEM7
There are some parallels to the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s. Activists pushed the idea that a black man should be afforded equal opportunity to a white man. The US matured over the next 4 decades, and we are in a better place now. This is an acceptable sequence of events.
The same is true of the ADA law. Even if many people aren't "ready" yet (and I disagree with you here), it is moral ad ethical and just, and will be accepted the same way given time.
It is economically good too: In the long run, the contributions of the disabled to our society, in literature, the sciences, engineering, math, flower growing or whatever you like, will far outweigh the financial investment we give in the form of ADA access. In the long run, ADA is a good investment.
Okay, I agree with you there; I have no problem with the idea that black and white people should be treated equally, and evaluated on metrics that are (allegedly) free of gender/racial bias.
On the topic of ADA-compliance and contribution of mobility-impaired people, I'd prefer to take a 'wait and see' approach, until it is firmly established by societal consensus that trying to retro-fit a system outside its design spec is a good thing. If there is societal consensus, we'll soon see M-8's that have 1+2 seating, giving rise to seats that are big enough for the biggest bums and aisle that is wide enough for the widest wheelchairs. Until then, I prefer to sit in a big seat and have a narrow corridor. But I speak only for myself.
AEM7
This is why the PUBLIC agrees to get together and pass a law that there should be cheap little ding-dongs and dusty braille dots. They get produced by the bucketload so they cost almost nothing, the blind lobby all screamed and yelled until Congress wrote the law to intall them at the exact height where the blind could find them (trust me, I watched the ADA get written); and Kawasaki knows that both they and Budd, in St.Louis, New York, and Boise all have to install the same little dots and ding-dongs. It's as close to a cheap win-win as you can get.
Putit another way: If you wanted to repeal ADA, and the 1974 law that required handicapped accessibility in transit (this is why transit would have to be compliant even without ADA), who would vote for that repeal? Your total votes in Congress today would be no more than the fingers of one hand.
The LIRR did the right thing in getting M7s, but scrapping the M1s versus finding new homes for them either overseas or on the SIR was an error in judgment. However, the MTA has deeper pockets than the CDOT, seemingly…
As for ConnDOT, I’m rather surprised that they were not tempted to go the NJ Transit route and go with electric-locomotive-hauled push-pull trains. Certainly, it’d be rather cheaper in the long run to get Shoreliner IIIs and have EP-6s haul them around (the identity of the EP-6 left to the imagination—I myself imagine ALP-46s converted to additionally operate from third-rail, but not wearing garish McGinnis paint schemes).
Upgrading M2, M4 and M6 EMUs to meet current FRA standards will certainly require a few things—among them, the elimination of the much-beloved “railfan window” in favor of the full-width cab (sorry Charlie)…and perhaps a few other things ought to be added to make them more flexible, such as low-platform boarding plus 25kV capability (thinking automatic transformer-tap changing on the fly) so that some trainsets can be diverted to provide electric Shore Line East operations…certainly, the new FRA buff-strength regulations will have these MUs looking nothing like their former selves on the head- and tail-ends. Time will indeed tell…
Maybe it's a flexibility issue. GCT is cramped, and if you want to split a train into 2 parts it's much easier to do with current equipment. This way they can split trains so that they don't run a full 10 car train middays and evenings.
and perhaps a few other things ought to be added to make them more flexible, such as low-platform boarding plus 25kV capability (thinking automatic transformer-tap changing on the fly) so that some trainsets can be diverted to provide electric Shore Line East operations…
Passenger volume on the Shore Line is going to be dwarfed by a factor of 20 or more to 1 by traffic west of New Haven in all our lifetimes. Doesn't make sense to do anything massive just to accommodate it.
Passenger volume on the Shore Line is going to be dwarfed by a factor of 20 or more to 1 by traffic west of New Haven in all our lifetimes. Doesn't make sense to do anything massive just to accommodate it
The rebuild in and of itself is going to be a massive project—adding items like that to the rebuild will not make it any more massive. Not to mention that “passenger volume estimates” are often underestimated—add destinations beyond New Haven (or even Stamford) and more passengers will take interest.
And back to my point about flexibility—there is only so far down the line that a Geep (diesel under wires!) plus de-engined SPVs can go…and it sure cannot go into GCT nor clear some of the low clearances further west. Not to mention that if you can replace those trainsets with some MU sets, the Geep/SPV trainsets could then become available for the proposed New Haven-Hartford service (and thus eliminating one excuse)…
Rebuilds don't need need to be upgraded to meet current FRA standards like you described
Yes they do. Consider how NJ Transit’s Comet III cab cars are slated to be rebuilt into trailer cars—NJT had no wish to spend extra money to upgrade them to meet current FRA standards. Not to mention whatever dilemmas surround the planned second rebuilding of Arrow III MUs, which would require elimination of cab doors etc. and possibly necessitate turning them into married four-car units.
The ConnDOT MUs will face the same ordeals during their rebuild. In the long run, it may not be saving money. Note the quote from Harry Harris, ConnDOT’s public transportation chief: “Eventually we will have to replace the fleet…We are taking a real hard look as for which direction we should take for the next generation.” If ConnDOT had as deep of pockets as the MTA, then we would be seeing the advent of the M8.
Rebuilds cannot be “grandfathered”—they have to meet current standards.
A 20 year delay in buying x new cars is money saved permanently. It's debt that has to be issued and paid off 20 years later. Only if the operations cost plus annual interest expense of refurbishment of the old cars exceeds the operations cost plus annual interest expense of buying new cars is refurbishing more costly. And you can do a LOT od extra maintenance with the saved interest expense.
First, recall that the maintenance and repair expense of new cars is affected by warranties offered by manufacturers. I will assume that this factor is already accounted for in your statement. The effect of this canbe averaged over the expected life of the new cars.
You missed one other, though: liability risk expense.
SEPTA could have continued refurbishing the Budd M3 ("Almond Joy" to Subtalkers and other buffs) cars on the Market-Frankford Line, and even added some form of air conditioning - or not. It might have been less expensive than buying new cars from Adtranz. But when a motor dropped out of one and the car swung across a switch, a tunnel pillar virtually cut the car in half, killing a woman passenger and injuring others. (I believe SEPTA, which is self-insured, paid a settlement in the case.) In the aftermath, it became clear that such a strategy was untenable.
So, let's revisit your formula: "Only if the operations cost plus annual interest expense of refurbishment plus liability insurance of the old cars exceeds the operations cost plus annual interest expense and liability insurance of buying new cars is refurbishing more costly."
My main point was that the interest expense of new cars, relative to the interest expense of refurbishment, is so massive that unless something major comes into the equation refurbishment will be cheaper.
Obviously if refurbishment results in unreliable or dangerous equipment it's not a good idea.
Connecticut’s DOT is preparing to repair – outright refurbish – dozens of aluminum power coaches
They are not going to rebuild them, just refurbish them. This is the same thing SEPTA did with the Silverliner IV's. So long 80's red and blue seats, hello nice comtemporary styling and more comfortable seats. If they really want to splurge they can install a better PA system or LCD destination signs.
The 1975 trainsets would then exceed their intended service life by some three years…
BTW, the M-2' date from 1972.
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Hmm, I wonder if the NYCS is dragging the rest of the country down? I mean all of the other systems I know are clean and fast and in good repair. :-)
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09292003.shtml#ASCE
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Hmmm, looks like CSX managed to pull another buzz-word out of its ass. Too bad they can't focus on running a railroad.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09292003.shtml#Atlanta
Mark
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Looks like CP learned that you can't schedule your trains when all your interchange traffic is still run as extras at times that would give some of the best random number generators a run for their money.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09292003.shtml#Schedule
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This is just wierd. Wacky Canadians. Well, at least its better than in our country where NS and CSX is trying to gets its non-conrail-division employees and officers to stop using ethnic slurs.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09292003.shtml#CN
Mark
Yes, this is an oddball turn of events. At first glance, I thought that Canadian National Railways was attempting to prohibit VIA from using the name “Canadian” for its transcontinental train that used to operate on Canadian Pacific tracks but now runs on “see-enn” rails…
To be sure, you won’t be seeing the Canadian Pacific Railway attempting to turn their entire name into “see-pee” by contrast :-P
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Good arguements, use it on your heather, non-believer friends.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df09292003.shtml#An
SNCF’s annual funding needs range from €1.5 billion (about $1.76 billion) to €2 billion (about $2.34 billion). That is excluding the expense of building LGVs, which goes into the €4-5 billion range per new line. Lots of money for what amounts to less than 1,000 route miles of intercity high-speed running plus other rail operations—compare Amtrak’s 22,000 miles of operations around the USA, and the funding disparity really becomes quite glaring…further, neither SNCF nor infrastructure owner RRF are required to be “for-profit” as Amtrak was/is…
For “RRF” read RFF instead.
Also, for a bit of light reading, here’s RFF’s 2001 Annual Report (in PDF format)…which certainly shows the heavy public expenditure on railroads that France continues to engage in, to the USA’s chagrin (or ought to be at least).
My prediction is ALL of us will be long dead and buried before any third track is built!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12:52
A 8 car M1 was waiting on track 19. It accelerated alright it must have been going 70. full throttle. it took a stop at the harold stop en route to woodside. then at normal pace it reached murray hill.
thats all folks
I'm sure somebody down the road will be saying "You know, this M12 is definitely a step back from the M7 we had years ago."
If we take that to the future, then by the year 2040, we'll all be walking down the ROW because the commuter rail cars won't work at all.
Iwas just poking fun at you a little. Don't take it personally.8-)
Seriously: If you don't like the M7's ride or A/C, then MTA needs to hear from you. There is always room for improvement.
It will have so much Federally-mandated junk on it, I'm sure it will be.
Wait! I know that trainset. That trainset have 7060 and 7117(End Car) in it! I saw that trainset just last saturday at Woodside!
They tried pulling it forward one more time and they they started pulling it back into penn.
Poor job by the crew! the announcements didn't come till 10 mins after the ordeal began.
The motorman should have realized after 10 mins that he was not building any speed that he could keep.
The train was running 10 cars. 7060 was car 5. with cars 3-6 in service.
Note- it was the 12:21 AM train to port wash. Thats Fri. AM
http://www.nbc4.com/news/2529354/detail.html
----------------------------------------------------
Judge Considers Officers Actions "Foolish"
Lawsuit Against Policeman Dismissed
POSTED: 7:55 a.m. EDT October 3, 2003
WASHINGTON -- A federal judge called a Metro Transit Police officer's actions foolish, but not illegal.
That's what the judge's had to say about a Metro Transit Police officer who handcuffed and arrested a 12-year-old girl for eating a french fry in the Tenleytown Metro station.
The girl's mother, Tracy Hedgepeth, claimed that Officer Jason Fazenbaker illegally searched Ansche Hedgepeth's backpack and treated her unfairly during the October 2000 arrest.
The arrest drew national attention and sparked widespread criticism that the transit police force had gone too far.
Although the judge said Metro acted within the law, he still called the arrest humiliating and demeaning.
Metro has since changed its rules to allow minors to receive citations.
---------------------------------------------------
Thumbs Up? Where?
And don't get me started on their "drinking through a straw" policy...
Did WMATA brass intend for the regulations to be interpreted this way, so the officer would have been in trouble if he didn't handcuff her? Or was the officer just an idiot?
As the judge said, the officer was well in his right to do what he did. Just because it was "foolish" doesn't make it wrong.
"At the time of the arrest, Metro police maintained that D.C. law allowed them to issue citations of up to $300 to adults caught eating in the Metro but required that minors be arrested and taken into custody. Police seized Ansche's jacket and backpack, removed her shoelaces and transported her to the District's juvenile processing center, where the crying girl was fingerprinted and held for three hours."
Too bad the officers could not be charged with child abuse - because thats what this amounts to!!
Gee, another person who believes a juvenile delinquent over an officer of the law!!
It doesn't look like the police disputed the facts of the incident in court.
*The unjust law is that the girl had to be taken into custody, not that she wasn't allowed to eat.
So what is it? The more french fries you have, the stiffer the punishment? If youre eating a hamburger, do you go in and get a cavity search or something?
I mentioned it was a bag of fries because the media was all out in saying she was eating ONE and ONLY one French Fry when the cops when all haywire and cuffed her. THat was not the facts, she refused to comply with the officer's orders and in my opinion she got what she deserved. The judge even ruled the officer was well within the law to do what he did.
Yes, it makes it wrong. It just doesn't make it illegal.
An adult can accept a ticket on his own recoginsance and go on his way.
A Juvenile is unable to do this, any contact with law enforcement must involve the parents. That is the Juvenile must be detained until the parents can be brought into the situation.
Surely the officer did not *want* to arrest the gir for eating her frenchfries. What he wanted is what he asked her to do, to get rid of the frenchfries. She gave him sauce and his options became to ignore her or to process her. To 'process her' he *had* to arrest her.
The delays or humiliations once arrested were not of the officer's making.
The facts as we have them say nothing of the sort of approach used by the officer in his initial contact with the girl: Was it friendly or confrontational?
"Hello, you know, you cannot eat food on the subway system. Can I ask you to throw those away?"
"Well, look, if you were an adult, I could give you a ticket, but I am not allowed to give a minor a ticket, so if you do not throw them away, I'll have to bring you to the police station and call your parents."
Elias
But I understand that has already changed.
NO! A juvenile is simply not ALLOWED to do this because of a law passed by a legislative body he/she cannot vote for.
Back in the old days, if you sassed a cop and were old enough to get slapped around, that usually took care of the situation - and I'd imagine that were it not for the so-called "sensibilities" of today, if the girl actually DID sass the cop, the cop would have taken the "freedom fries" out of her hand, thrown it in a trash can and began a lecture. Nowadays, I suppose there was no other option other than to follow procedure and drag her off with the old axiom, "get in the car Johnny" ...
Whatever happened here though, there's got to be more to the story than we've heard. Then again, if the cop had time for a food violation, then Washingtonians should be mighty proud of their low crime rate. :)
It is absolutly correct that any official action involving a minor must be reffered to the parents.
Look at it from the parent's point of view: you damn well WANT to know if your child has gotten into trouble. And if it was for something stupid, then the parent (and/or his or her lawyer) needs to be the one to hastle the cops, not the kid.
Elias
Before this case three years ago (2000) I have never heard of anything like it , nor anythign since.
I would like to knwo what else fuels your "hatred" towards WMATA? Do you even use the system?
There are remains of 21st Century NYC in the world of the Eloi in the 2002 remake of "The Time Machine" (directed by Simon Wells).
A large proletariat of London workers who spend most of their time underground, or in buildings, is an important part of the sociology of the novel, "The Time Machine", and is an important part of Wells' explanation of how the world of the Eloi and Morlocks came to be.
This is getting way off topic, but this is also a plot element of "The Cage", the original Star Trek pilot, with the Talosians finding life underground to be limited, and developing their mental powers as a result. From Weena, to Veena, on SubTalk !
I must admit I had no clue the Myrtle Ave. el was closing for good even though I was still a regular Saturday commuter to Brooklyn at the time.
We had to improvise our trips to the city at that time because Intercity Bus Company was on strike and the Northeast Coach Lines bus we normally took wasn't running. I think my father drove us one way, then we hoofed it back home ourselves. On one occasion we took PATH from 33rd St. to Newark, changing trains along the way, and took a Newark-to-Butler bus home. It took 90 minutes to cover the 18-mile trip and it also marked the only time I've ever ridden on PATH. The following week we took a Lakeland bus from Port Authority to Lincoln Park. It was actually a quick ride because that bus stayed on US 46 almost all the way to Lincoln Park.
But not on the last train at night driven by our own Bigedirtman, I left during the afternoon.Here is the souvenir seat I STOLE from the Q-Car that day!!
Click Here to see the Newsday article about it
(Do you still have the seat ?)
I was there for the last ride.
Bill "Newkirk"
Just like that map from the HBLR train I have.
The TA stated to have operated 30 tph on the downtown local track and 29 tph on the uptown local in June 1954, track while switching CC locals to Bway-Lafayette and terminating D expresses at Hudson Terminal.
The BOT tried to increase both the E and F to 17 tph in late 1949, while not decreasing service on ohter lines. I don't have any official documentation on how well this worked. This did occur after the C was eliminated and its trains were added to the D. That would have meant that there were 32 tph on the 6th Ave local tracks - with routing similar to that in August 1954. Also the TA went to 11 car E's and F's in 1955 for an effective 5% service increase on the 6th Ave local - with both D's and F's operating on the 6th Ave local tracks.
As to possibility, as opposed to actual experience, the nominal capacity is 40 tph. The problem is terminal capacity.
What ever happened to the whole scheme, anyway?
None of the above.
Didn't the TA state that the system could, in theory, let trains get within a few feet of each other?
The communication timeouts permitted under CBTC translate to around 50-100 feet, which is around a block length at station approaches. So the minimum spacing under CBTC would be about the same as it currently is.
I can't measure this, but I am convinced from my observations that the current minimum spacing between trains at one place where it is very visible, namely north of Union Square on the southbound 4/5, is many hundreds of feet. If a train is in the station, the follower is never allowed particularly close, even at crawling speed. I can't tell you if it's 250 feet or 500, but it's absolutely not 100.
Also, if a CBTC comms timeout is measured in seconds, then at low speeds that will translate to very few feet. Say it's 5 seconds. Then if the train is crawling along at 5 feet per second, it could approach to within 25 feet plus any added safety margin required.
CBTC is not required to limit a train's speed when it is within 50 or 25 feet of a hazard. This can be done with a block system and timers. It is done at stations that have diverging switches at the end of platforms. The train's entrance into the station will be governed by timers, if that switch is set is not set for a straight route. In these cases the block lengths are quite short - even less than 50 feet - see Lex 138th St downtown platform - especially during the am rush hour when the switch is active.
The strategy should be to keep the switch for a straight route and only switch to the correct lineup, once the train has stopped within the station. The tower should then go back to the straight route as soon as the train has cleared the interlocking. This is fairly difficult to achieve when the tower is not within sight distance of the train.
The germane question is how often a train should be within 500 feet of a hazard - namely its leader. The answer is it should not with uniform headways down to 90 seconds and dwell times of 30 seconds. So, while CBTC can duplicate at all times the best behavior of a conventional block system in this regard, it should not be necessary to approach a train in normal operations.
The next question is how much time would be saved by having a CBTC equivalent of keying by. The answer is none. Suppose the leader starts up again and behaves normally. It will come to another station. The follower can try to follow at low speed and distance. It will be stopped at the next station. Its entrance will be limited by the leader's braking rate into the station, the leader's dwell time in the station and the leader's acceleration out of the station - i.e. the minimum headway of 90 seconds. OTOH, suppose the follower remained 500 feet behind the leader and waited 79 seconds until after the leader started moving at normal speed. [79 = 90 - 500 ft /(45 ft/sec)]. The follower would have proceeded at normal speed and entered the next station 90 seconds after the leader entered the same station. It would have entered at exactly the same time it would have had it tried to follow at a low speed. One can use mathematical induction to show that the same applies when there are many trains waiting behind a single train.
So that begs the question: Is some of what you're proposing impractical (my opinion: yes); or is it also that TA managers would find it difficult to work with someone who thinks of them purely as incompetent and corrupt boobs who should be thrown in jail and made to pay back the last 20 years of their salary (my opinion: yes)?
As for me, I think I'm open-minded enough to see how CBTC works out on the L train.
Would you mind quantifying that?
The point is not that a fixed block system could not possibly do this, although I maintain that it is likely a CBTC system operating at its very best will be superior to a fixed-block system at its very best. It is that CBTC can do this while providing better flexibility and lower cost.
One thing is for sure: If you decide to ignore the TA's trial of CBTC, then you need not worry about empirical data fouling your thought experiment.
Which level of service should be used as the baseline? The current 15 tph, 24 tph that was operated by the BOT in August 1949 and the TA in June 1954 or 32 tph which both the BOT or TA stated to be the line's capacity?
N.B. current peak hour service levels allow only 3.6 sq ft/passenger on the 14th St Line which is less than the 4.1 sq ft/passenger on the downtown Lex Ave Express. So, duplicating current service levels is really a non-starter for a "success criterion".
This is entirely irrelevant. The premise is that CBTC will be less expensive to operate than fixed block regardless of the level of service selected. I would be interested to know if the savings from use of CBTC are greater at higher levels of service, stay the same, or become more marginal.
"So, duplicating current service levels is really a non-starter for a "success criterion"."
Your statement is false, as I have just shown.
There are also no cost criteria in the NYCT contract either.
The prospects for cost reduction do not look good. NYCT has let itself be painted into a proprietary system, with only a single supplier - Siemens. One of the follower suppliers has dropped out, when the TA permitted Siemens to use a proprietary DCS, as opposed to the third party DCS that was used to test feasibility during the trials.
"One of the follower suppliers has dropped out, when the TA permitted Siemens to use a proprietary DCS, as opposed to the third party DCS that was used to test feasibility during the trials."
Are there advantages to Siemen's DCS? In my experience being involved in software, there are indeed downsides to proprietary platforms. But they often have advantages. The question is whether the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
An example using home stereo equipment: Bose builds a beautiful home system with tiny wireless speakers and a powered subwoofer, which truly fills a living room or family room with great sound, and has nifty options. It will even plug into your TV and accept a turntable's input for vinyl records. It comes with a nice warranty and attractive financing options.
It costs $3,000.00 A major downside is that (somebody correct me if I am wrong) Bose components only work with other Bose components. Want a different receiver or subwoofer? Fuggedaboutit.
To some people, the downside outweighs the pluses. That's fine.
On the other hand, somebody likes the miniature speakers and portable gear and decides nobody else makes that sort of thing to his likes. So the advantages outweigh the disadvantages to that customer.
I have read the RFP. It contained no reference to any service level preformance criteria.
None of the technical papers presented by NYCT regarding the CBTC project has ever mentioned any service level performance criteria.
I have mentioned the lack of service level performance criteria many times in this forum. I had an exchange of posts on this board with a TA employee who is usually quick to point up obscure contract references, he was not able to point out any service level performance criteria in the contract.
Are there advantages to Siemen's DCS? In my experience being involved in software, there are indeed downsides to proprietary platforms. But they often have advantages. The question is whether the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
Your statement assumes that there are criteria by which one can measure relative advantages and disadvantages. Your previous post mentioned only a cost criterion. What's your professional experience with a proprietary vs. non-proprietary system on the basis of cost?
BTW, Siemens won the NYCT contract on the basis of its reputation for Ligne 14 in Paris, even though that system used a leaky transmission line DCS and not the RF-DCS required by NYCT. The RATP has since chosen another vendor to retrofit Ligne 13 with an RF-CBTC system. The RATP has insisted on using an open architecture system.
Bose builds a beautiful home system...
I chose to take an audio acuity test before I contemplated investing in hi-fi. That test showed that I had a hearing deficiency that would not permit me to decern the differences between various hi-fi systems and components. I managed to save a great deal of money by not having a hi-fi.
However, I have had some contact with Bose. He was an EE Professor and I was an undergraduate more than 40 years ago. I took his course in linear circuits. I got an A.
Well, you've proven you can find small consolation in having a hearing loss. In your case, the money best stays in your wallet for other things. Good for you.
"Your statement assumes that there are criteria by which one can measure relative advantages and disadvantages. Your previous post mentioned only a cost criterion. "
It mentioned a cost criterion in the context of current system performance. If the cost criterion is satisfied by the CBTC trial, that alone would justify its deployment. There are already performance criterion well known to us. There is even an independent group, often critical of the TA, which measures it and provides methodology (the Straphangers' Campaign). You can easily look it up.
"However, I have had some contact with Bose. He was an EE Professor and I was an undergraduate more than 40 years ago. I took his course in linear circuits. I got an A."
You are fortunate to have had an instructor of his accomplishments.
I learned a few things from an interesting man. John Bernath, a coworker of mine, holds one of the patents for the original carbon dioxide laser invented by Hughes Aircraft Co. and introduced to the world in 1965. Did he have stories to tell. His opinion of graduating UCLA and USC physics undergraduates who applied for work at Hughes, where Bernath ran a large optics/laser laboratory and assembly area, was simple: "These guys don't know s--t when they graduate. I have to teach them real physics after they hire on."
Where did you say you went to school?
I wish I could have brought some of those guys to medical school with me. Medical school was fascinating and rewarding but I often sat in a room full of assholes who would stoop as low as they had to to gain some perceived or even illusory advantage in residency program placement.
I'm willing to learn from others. Even when som of them work for the MTA.
Some of them could teach you something too, if you'd let 'em. :0)
However, operating facilities at more than 70% of capacity would not be an item that I could learn from them.
Another item I could not learn from them is how to manage an open architecture contract. It would appear that the Canarsie Line's CBTC system will not become the worldwide standard that NYCT stated was a design objective, when the project started. In fact the Canarsie CBTC system will most likely become a proprietary dead-end that other operators and vendors will shun because of its high cost. Its service level performance is yet to be specified or tested.
I beg to differ. Your posts indicate otherwise. In fact, they convey much the same closed-minded arrogance that you accuse the TA of engaging in.
Even if you put clocks in all stations, the T/O and C/R would not know the optimal spacing strategy. With clocks, delay one train by 60 seconds and now all the followers are behind schedule and just want to move forward as fast as possible, rather than trying to space evenly. With sophisticated software (and I'm not saying this will be in NYCT's CBTC implementation or is even contemplated) you could tell the trains to reschedule themselves if necessary.
For example, if one train has irrevocably lost 60 seconds because of an obnoxious door holder, make the next one delay by 45 seconds, the following by 30, and the following by 15. That would not be easy to do with the current system.
How sophisticated is WMATA's system?
As for the door holding example this is a function of centralized command run amok. You could just put out on the radio that you have a stuck door or whatever and they tell the other trains within a range to stop and stay to avoid bunching. The problem is that control operators start asking for update every 10-30 seconds and asks for a ridiculous amount of information for the crew while they are trying to overcome the problem. This leads to even bigger delays or crews not calling things in because it is faster just to fix the problem.
What does help more than anything is the local recycle feature on the new trains but that has nothing to do with CBTC.
Also in your comparison should be the cost of making improvements without CBTC. A platform C/R at Bedford and Lorimer in the AM would do wonders to equalize headways.
The current policy of all putins at Canarsie kills the line every day and CBTC has nothing to do with that.
A headway timer at each station, as described in my post to Mr. AIM, would do even better.
The difficult to solve problem is when people run slow for what ever reason. The bottleneck becomes worse and worse as the passengers line up at every station. Unless you will let the crews use discretion. If the trains are 4 minutes apart and the last train clock was at 8 min do you let the train take skips until the clock reads say 5 min? Actually that would solve MANY problems real cheap and OTOH David Greenberg would have a heart attack.
That's called Train Supervision as opposed to Train Control. There are two fairly simple solutions used by transit operators that do operate in the 40 tph range to insure uniform headways.
The Moscow system works as follows. There is a timer placed in each station. The timer is reset when a train leaves the station, so that it always shows how much time has elapsed since the last train left the station. Suppose headways are every 90 seconds, then all the crew has to know is to leave when the timer reads 90.
The Paris system works slightly differently. There is a clock in each station that displays only minutes and seconds. However the clock does not show actual time. The clock's reading at each station is offset by the amount of time that it is supposed to take a train to reach it from the beginning of the line. So, if a train were scheduled to leave a terminal at 13:05:23, then the crew would know to leave each station when the that station's clock read 05:23.
Each system has its strengths and weaknesses. The Paris system requires slightly more complex electronics and planning but provides the ability to use it in the NYCT environment of merges and provides a mechanism for synchronization between branches.
if one train has irrevocably lost 60 seconds...
This system does correct for individual delays of the type you described. Clearly, such corrections would be limited by the amount of spare dwell time that would be alloted, when the schedules were made.
Peace,
ANDEE
Might we agree that the TA's RFQ's did not specify the "right" equipment.
By theway, did you put in your application to be police commissioner? I'm sure Ray Kelly will be grateful you're ready to reform his incompetent dept. in addition to working as chairman of the MTA.
Have you ever tried to report a petty crime that did not involve an attack on your person? I've tried twice and been rebuffed both times during my initial contact with the NYPD. One involved corporate identity theft and the other involved credit card fraud. The NYPD was unwilling to accept a formal complaint in either case.
Channel 5 had a "news" feature within the past few weeks entitled "driving while black". One of their producers, who is black, drove around Nassau County during early morning hours with a hidden camera. He was stopped and handcuffed for over an hour.
Channel 5 went to the Nassau County Police Chief with the video. The chief said that they would definitely investigate this incident. He also stated that what was on the video was not normal practice. The chief further stated that fewer than 10 complaints against Nassau County Police had been filed in all of the previous year.
Channel 5 decided to do something novel. The same black producer, equipped with a hidden camera, tried to file a complaint the next week. The NCPD refused to take a complaint. The producer tried 6 different precincts. He was told incorrectly that he would have to come back during business hours and speak to a "supervisor". One cop at the desk asked him if he had any outstanding warrants.
Those 10-odd complainants must have had a lot of perserverance.
At least three times, though a couple of these crimes were not against me. I found a friendly reception and was treated with the utmost consideration. I also requested assistance for serious threats against a friend and found that officers responded to my requests promptly and professionally.
In another case, the Philadelphia police assisted me with a credit card case. John Timoney, one of the architects of Compstat, ran the Dept. along similar lines. The biggest problem was the bank's refusal to cooperate with the police investigation. Detectives from the fraud unit wanted to check my records, and I authorized the bank to show the records. The bank refused, and said they would not even honor a subpoena.
"I've tried twice and been rebuffed both times during my initial contact with the NYPD."
Read the above. Also, did you treat the officers with some basic dignity, or did you accuse them of incompetence as soon as you walked in the door?
Channel 5 was right to investigate, and I have no doubt there is a problem with Nassau PD. As you know, the police union in Nassau is quite powerful. Officers can sit at a desk and be paid over $100,000 per year. Problems with this suburban department go beyond lack of cooperation with citizens.
That last sentence has always seemed inaccurate to me. I've now had a chance to do multiple observations of the downtown 4/5 approaching 14th St.
When a train is in the 14th St station, the follower is held back by a distance of four (yes, 4) signal blocks. These signal blocks vary in length, but they add up to at least 500 feet, probably considerably more. I can't be exact about the length of the blocks but they are not particularly short except for the last one. They encompass nearly all the distance from 21st St (south end of 23rd St station) to 16th St (north end of 14th St station).
This huge buffer zone definitely reduces capacity through the station. If a follower could approach the station at a steady 15 or 20 mph (which would still allow for a quick emergency stop) there would be much less time between when the leader starts to leave the station and when the follower can enter.
You don't know the interval between when the leader and follower left Grand Central. The signal system will display a green aspect at Grand Central 77 seconds after the leader has started leaving. It will display a yellow aspect 59 seconds after the leader starts to leave. So, the follower did not necessarily leave Grand Central 90 seconds (40 tph) or 100 seconds (36 tph) after its leader. It could have left considerably sooner. If it did leave sooner, then one would expect it would encounter problems when approaching the next station - Union Sq.
Consider Union Square. It takes 49 seconds from the time that a train starts until all signals clear (yellow within the station and green north of it). If a following train were at the rear of the platform (16th St), it would be able to enter the station. Where was this following train when this leader started to leave? If it were going at 30 mph it would have been 2200 feet north of 16th St. This would have placed the front of the follower around 25th St or at the north end of the 23rd St station. The follower would have been further north, if higher express speeds are assumed.
If we assume a maximum speed of 50 mph, then the stopping distance at 3 mph/sec is 613 feet. Assume a 50% safety margin to get 900 feet. So, while the leader is in Union Sq, the first red signal should occur 900 feet north of 16th St or between 19th and 20th Streets. This is close to your 21st St observation.
However, these signals should have started clearing, once the leader started leaving Union Sq. It would have taken the follower 29 seconds to travel from 2200 feet north of 16th St to 900 feet north of 16th St @ 30 mph. How far would the leader have travelled during this time? Assuming a 2 mph/sec acceleration it would have accelerated for 15 seconds to 30 mph and travelled at 30 mph for an additional 14 seconds. The total distance covered would be 960 feet. So the signal that you observed at 21st St should not hold the follower as both leader and follower advanced.
If a follower could approach the station at a steady 15 or 20 mph (which would still allow for a quick emergency stop) there would be much less time between when the leader starts to leave the station and when the follower can enter.
The important point is that the follower should not be so close as to require such slow movement. It is a result of not any supervision (adherence to schedule) during the entire run from the Bronx. This lack of supervision permits trains to leave stations earlier than they should. That's the TA's problem - not the present signal system.
...
The important point is that the follower should not be so close as to require such slow movement.
You make excellent arguments that NYCT's failure to manage train intervals reduces capacity. However, that was not the point I was addressing.
In a discussion of CBTC (higher up in this thread), you specifically gave as a reason why CBTC wasn't going to help with capacity that current signaling systems already allow as close a spacing as CBTC will allow. That statement seems to me to be flatly false, as demonstrated by my observations on the 4/5 train. Therefore I have my doubts about the rest of your CBTC argument, since it is based on a provably false assumption.
I'm sorry, I thought you were questioning whether your observation of trains being held at 21st St while a train was at Union Square was consistent with the assertion that a train could approach Union Sq at normal speed once the leader has cleared Union Sq. I think I've addressed that point to your satisfaction, even though it wasn't the point of your post.
If a follower could approach the station at a steady 15 or 20 mph (which would still allow for a quick emergency stop) there would be much less time between when the leader starts to leave the station and when the follower can enter.
There is such provision at both 125th and 59th Streets. The signal within the station goes from red to a 20 mph timer to yellow as opposed to the signal at Union Sq which goes only from red to yellow aspects.
In a discussion of CBTC (higher up in this thread), you specifically gave as a reason why CBTC wasn't going to help with capacity that current signaling systems already allow as close a spacing as CBTC will allow.
You may have taken that statement out of context. It was in answer to the question of using CBTC to implement keying-by. I indicated that CBTC communications delays would keep the minumum distace between stopped trains to between 50 to 100 feet. I also indicated that this was equivalent to the minimum block lengths currently within the system. So, if keying by were necessary, it could be implemented either by CBTC or by using a conventional block system with short blocks where it was needed.
I do know of at least one instance where 100 foot spacing between signals was used on mainline track in NYC. It was used to provide 700 foot spacing between trains and 66 tph operation. The 700 foot spacing was a weight restriction for the Brooklyn Bridge.
"So the minimum spacing under CBTC would be about the same as it currently is", not "the minimum spacing under CBTC would be about the same as it could be with current technology".
That's why I complained.
In the specific case of Union Square, I think there is some
funny business with the gap filler and a train order signal.
Dave B. may be able to elaborate.
At Union Square the blocks are probably shorter than 200'. My guess is 150'. And the the 4 reds preceding the station do NOT clear until the train ahead leaves the station.
Then they start to clear as the train gets further south.
Sorry, I don't know signal types.
I thought there was some interaction with the signals NORTH
of Union Square such that trains are held out until the gap
fillers have successfully retracted.
Accomplished at a far lower operating cost.
There is no basis for measuring a CBTC system using RF DCS because none currently exist. All current CBTC systems are using either an inductive loop or leaky transmission line DCS.
The hope (or hype) is that it will yield lower operating costs. However, the TA has opted for a proprietary RF-DCS.
You were the person who said that CBTC would be able to achieve the equivalent of a 50-100 foot block length at a much lower operating cost. What was the basis for your statement regarding operating cost?
You stated OPERATING cost - not capital cost. Replacement of electrical gear, lenses, etc. other than normal maintenence is not part of operating costs.
CBTC also has wayside equipment mostly associated with the DCS. Inductive loops and leaky transmission lines require equipment continuously along each track. They are more subject to environmental problems than the "electrical gear" associated with a block system because they cannot be sealed within a NEMA box or a conduit.
The RF-DCS requires equipment at only fixed locations not continuously along the track. The expectation is that such a system will be less costly to maintain. However, it has no operational history at this point. Also, as I and others have noted elsewhere, the TA's RF-DCS will be a one-of-a-kind proprietary product, using a proprietary protocol. The RF-DCS that the TA has opted to use was not tested during the test trials so there is no cost basis from the test data. Other systems that are building RF-DCS, most notably Paris' RATP, have rejected a propietary RF-DCS in favor of one that uses an open architecture and protocol.
Again, what is the basis for your assertion that the TA's CBTC will have much lower operating costs. Please be careful not to include capital costs.
You need to review your accounting. Routine replacement of perishable parts is an operating cost, not a capital expense. Capital costs would be major replacement substantially extending the life of the system.
You have not presented any cost data to show that the TA's proprietary system is any worse than an open architecture system. Why don't you ask the TA about this and post their answer here?
That was rarely necessary because trains seldom got that close to one another. It certainly wasn't necessary to maintain 34 tph.
Besides, the 30-34 tph was hardly the greatest service level at that time. That distiction belonged to the Third Ave El in August 1949, which ran 42 tph in the opposite direction according to the BOT. Not bad considering they had both merges and grade crossings.
The key is how quickly a train can move around 1000 feet from rest. The number of burned out motors is more important than lack of field shunting.
The rush hour was shorter you can see that on the old maps so by the time train got to the other end they could drop out and that was it and midday service was much less than it is now. More trains run now than before over the course of the whole day.
But "daytime" service, based on a large number of us "rush hour only" types, was slacked. 4 car trains too. You'd DO your round trip and you were done - that's why lines were such long runs back then to get you your 2x4 hours ... and you'd drop out when it didn't matter.
What you say though is absolutely how it all worked ... the conga line at 242 was a 9AM thing NB ... nobody CARED. Nobody was going there anyway. Same for 205th where some of the splits laid up and twiddled their thumbs until the clock ran out. Bedford crew room was ALWAYS a hoot, and unlike those "dominoes tables" down south, they had COLOR TV! (and KNEW how to use it) ... :)
Today's situation though was brought about by TWU *finally* getting rid of that human torment - 4 hours on, 6 hours off, 4 hours on, 10 hours off and work on the OTHER END of the system from where you lived. My reports were to Stillwell. I lived at 205th/Norwood. Lemme tell ya, that was HELL ... no WONDER the damned pick was open. My motor instructor told me (befriended because he was with the Arnines when they first ARRIVED!) that even a chit pick was better than sitting the bored ... well ... yeah, he was right, but I was a Pillsbury muffin on the return trip back from Bedford in the evening. Next stop ... let's go existential ... next stop is Lower Slobovia, change for Dogpatch Airlines to Neck Road. Having done it, I *congratulate* TWU for ending that literal slavery gig ... but what benefitted UMD and the rest of TWU - the elimination of "WAR" ... ("work as requested") ...
But it screwed up the railroad when the TA got civilized ... only way the OLD scheme worked was with split shifts and deadheads ... let's not do that again. :(
Why would you want to? There isn't demand for that level of trains on that piece of track. If you'd said the express track under Queens Blvd, it would have made more sense as a question.
Do all of those "nominal" ratings of maximum train frequency account for switching?
Wondering if any of you camera people have any more pics or info. I didn't check the forgotten ny site yet.
E-mail me for the photo if you'd like to see it.
Incognito
The White Plains Kid
Details Here
The MTA website has nothing on the #3 line being affected as well so how will #3 trains go through 96th st and 104th st tunnel when the #2 must do single tracking?
I seem to remember a similar GO in mid-2002. (I think that was when there were reports of R-26's running on the 2, but for some reason I couldn't get out there with a camera.)
But that also raises the possibility that all trains (including #2 ?????and #3????) will run local from 96th st to 72nd st or Times Square in both directions.
Sure will be fun to watch this, hundreds of people squeezing into two narrow staircases X 2 on the 96th st underpass. More room on the 94th st side but not by much.
-Stef
See the info for the R7 cars
I would attempt it myself, except that my last ride on the Myrtle el was May 1969, nowhere near the last day of service.
In MY case, it isn't hatred, it's DEPRESSION at how thoroughly scrooched they are. It's like an old truck you've had all your life. You hit the brakes to stop at a light, the chassis stops and the truck body rolls right off onto the ground. Such is the condition of the rustbuckets. :(
At least they gave many years of loyal service, years which included the deferred maintenance and graffiti eras. Not a bad accomplishment.
Man that was a low blow considering it wasn't (supposedly) 9749's fault.
But 3 years ago, last time I was on a bird, I was that concerned myself that if the car swung out any further and hit some steel, there'd just be a reddish colored CLOUD where it hit. :(
Freshman and sophomore years I always took the D from Bedford Park to get home from school at met Dad at work at 125th where we got the A the rest of the way.
Later sophomore his job moved downtonw so I started taking the 4 with buddies. Not bad, mostly 62s.
The first time I got a redbird going home was the last. I quickly went back to riding the D. :) The whole trip I was wondering if I'd make it to Fulton alive.
I'm already lining cars up for preservation.
-Stef
-Stef
A century of progress
Call for Valley rail line echoes from '05
Oct. 3, 2003 12:00 AM
The terminology is decidedly different. But visions of an "interurban electric road" in Phoenix raised all sorts of grand possibilities in 1905 - just as the Valley's soon-to-be-built light rail line does today.
In an editorial written 98 years ago (unearthed by a resident who sent it to Phoenix transit officials who, in turn, brought it to our attention) our sister paper, the now-defunct Phoenix Gazette, threw its support behind a transit plan by the Pacific Electric Co.
The company talked about a franchise to build and operate an electric streetcar line from Phoenix, past the Hole-in-the-Rock (Papago Park) and Ingleside (presumably Arcadia), "the point where the famous Arizona oranges grow," to Tempe and on into Mesa.
The editorial talked glowingly of the line's importance to future growth and new business opportunities:
"With the carrying out of this plan, and doubtless it will be carried out, if not in the near future at no very distant day, Phoenix would have the starter for what has made Los Angeles the great city it is today. Other lines would follow, not only to traverse the agricultural sections of the county, but to tap some of the nearing mining regions, such as the Cave Creek country."
Though the editorial was on point in stating Phoenix would grow "wonderfully in the next decade" - it could have said the next 10 decades - it missed the mark in predicting "she will be sure to have her interurban lines."
It's taken a few years - nearly 100, in fact - for an "interurban electric road" that will connect Valley cities. But big projects take time.
What's thrilling is that construction is scheduled to begin next year on the initial phase of the Phoenix-Tempe-Mesa-Glendale light rail system.
And it won't take another century to see how it all turns out.
Copyright 2003, azcentral.com
Mark
I'm not sure about how Phoenix is set up, there's a lot of articles comparing it to a future Orlando for some reason. I used to be quasi-against light-rail too and favored anything that commutes over long distances more. But the more I look at it(and hear what naysayers say), the more it makes sense to me if you can connect a lot of attractions on it. Especially with reverse commuting. Malls, business parks, attractions, etc. If you have a whole bunch of this on a highway, and the line follows this route, then it makes more sense to have all these stops, and it seems almost too logical.
I have a refrigeration bible in my house, I'll read that.
wayne
Is that the one that describes the Eucharist service using Freon?
Later on the 4 train between 161-YS and Fordham Road a (peddling)
Man on Horse came aboard singing Spanish Tunes and tipping his cowboy
hat to anyone who offput a $1 his way..... HAD to be the funniest shiznit
I done seen all week.
Also on that train, some of the high schoolers whom boarded
had found amusement in criss-crossing the between-car gates to make
the passage between cars impassable (attaching the bottom of the
storm door gate chain to the inappropriate opposite-car link holder)...
Being that this train was heading to Woodlawn to return south for
the rush hour, I took to adjusting and PROPERLY placing the gates
BACK into the proper (stub holder?).. thus restoring the between-cars
passage area to how it SHOULD be... done was my (good railfan) deed.
(I alienated a few geese watching me do this-- but I told myself it was 4 a safety measure).
I WON'T post car numbers... knowing the TA they'll wanna cook and fry the
crew for not checking their consist thoroughly (when the disalignment
was done DURING the trip, and not prior).
You're welcome, Woodlawn brahs!
Had that BEEN a redbird, I would have still done the same and even KISS
the bar after I got done (I'd even let you brahs PHOTOGRAPH me doing so).
I had to be back uptown by 3, so that explains why I didn't see the reported 3 consists
of redbirds which ran in the evening rush..
I'm hoping to score a redhead in my next two trips downtown... (I meant redbird). ;)
From the looks of it, does one suppose 1851-1900 will be assigned to the 1? Some cars currently on the 7 could be xferred to the 1, namely 1851-55, 1866-70, 1876-90. They could be exchanged for 1726-35, 1771-75, and 1816-25.
We shall see...
-Stef
Blurry indeed, sorry about that, here's a movie of him.
Right click, save target as...
The trumpet was just another performer, not related to him. In the beginning of the movie you can hear him mumbling some beat of some sort.
(Tho I coulda sworn the "poncho" was a solid color...)
The boidies are still mostly metal, but it was amusing spotting the irregular patches that had been painted over that wouldn't hold a magnet. Wouldn't mind an arnine though. Now that winter's coming on strong upstate, those things were nice and toasty warm.
Wayne
Note Changes
(2)
This is an East 180 Street bound 2 train.
(4)
This is a Brooklyn Bridge bound 4 local train.
This is a Bowling Green bound 4 express train.
This is a 125 Street bound 4 express train.
This is an Atlantic Avenue bound 4 express train.
(5)
This is an Eastchester bound 5.
This is a Mott Haven 149 Street-Grand Concourse bound 5 local train.
This is a Crown Heights bound 5 express train.
This is an Atlantic Avenue bound 5 express train.
(6)
This is a 125 Street bound 6 train.
(F)
This is a King Highway bound F train.
(L)
This is a Broadway Junction bound L train.
(1) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 1 train.
This is a South Ferry bound 1 local train.
(1) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound 1 local train.
This is a Riverdale bound 1 train.
(2) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 2 train.
This is an East 180 Street bound 2 train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 2 express train.
This is a Flatbush Avenue bound 2 train.
(2) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 2 train.
This is a Bronx bound 2 express train.
This is a Wakefield bound 2 train.
(3) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound 3 express train.
This is a New Lots Avenue bound 3 train.
(3) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 3 train.
This is a Harlem-148 Street bound 3 express train.
(4) Downtown
This is a Manhattan 4 train.
This is a Brooklyn Bridge bound 4 local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 4 express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 4 local train.
This is a Bowling Green bound 4 express train.
This is an Atlantic Avenue bound 4 express train.
This is a Crown Heights bound 4 express train.
This is a New Lots Avenue bound 4 local train.
(4) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 4 express train.
This is a Manhattan bound 4 local train.
This is a 125 Street bound 4 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 4 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 4 local train.
This is a Woodlawn bound 4 train.
(5) Downtown
This is an East 180 Street bound 5 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train.
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 express train.
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train via the 7 Avenue Line.
This is an Atlantic Avenue bound 5 express train.
This is a Brooklyn College-Flatbush Avenue bound 5 express train.
This is a Crown Heights bound 5 express train.
This is an East 180 Street bound 5 train. (Old Announcement)
This is a Manhattan bound 5 train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Flatbush Avenue bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
(5) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 5 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 5 local train.
This is a Bronx bound 5 express train via the 7 Avenue Line.
This is an Eastchester bound 5 local train.
This is an Eastchester bound 5 express train.
This is a Nereid Avenue bound 5 express train.
This is an Eastchester bound 5.
This is a Mott Haven 149 Street-Grand Concourse bound 5 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train. (Old Announcement)
This is a Bronx bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is an Eastchester bound 5 train.(Old Announcement)
This is an Eastchester bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Nereid Avenue bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
(6) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 6 train.
This is a Manhattan bound 6 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 6 express train.
This is a Brooklyn Bridge bound 6 train.
(6) Uptown
This is a 125 Street bound 6 train.
This is a Bronx bound 6 train.
This is a Bronx bound 6 local train.
This is a Parkchester bound 6 local train.
This is a Pelham Bay Park bound 6 train.
This is a Pelham Bay Park bound 6 express train.
(7) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 7 train.
This is a Manhattan bound 7 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 7 express train.
This is a Times Square bound 7 train.
(7) Uptown
This is a Queens bound 7 train.
This is a Flushing bound 7 train.
This is a Flushing bound 7 local train.
This is a Flushing bound 7 express train.
(9) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 9 train.
This is a South Ferry bound 9 local train.
(9) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound 9 local train.
This is a Riverdale bound 9 train.
(A) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound A express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound A local train.
This is a Queens bound A express train.
This is a Queens bound A local train.
This is a Ozone Park bound A train.
This is a Far Rockaway bound A train.
This is a Rockaway Park bound A train.
(A) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound A train.
This is a Manhattan bound A express train.
This is a Mahattan bound A local train.
This is an Inwood bound A express train.
This is an Inwood bound A local train.
(B) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound B local train.
This is a Herald Square bound B local train.
(B) Uptown
This is a Harlem bound B local train.
This is a Bronx bound B local train.
This is a Bedford Park Boulevard bound B local train.
(C) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound C local train.
This is an Euclid Avenue bound C local train.
(C) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound C local train.
This is a Washington Heights bound C local train.
(D) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound D train.
This is a Manhattan bound D express train.
This is a Herald Square bound D express train.
(D) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound D express train.
This is a Norwood bound D train.
This is a Norwood bound D express train.
(E) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound E express train.
This is a MAnhattan bound E local train.
This is a World Trade Center bound E local train.
(E) Uptown
This is a Queens bound E local train.
This is a Jamaica bound E express train.
This is a Jamaica bound E local train.
(F) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound F express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound F local train.
This is a King Highway bound F train.
This is an Avenue X bound F train.
(F) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound F train.
This is a Queens bound F local train.
This is a Jamaica bound F express train.
(G) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound G train.
This is a Smith-9th Street bound G train.
(G) Uptown
This is a Queens bound G train.
This is a Court Square bound G train.
This is a Forest Hills bound G local train.
(J) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound J train.
This is a Manhattan bound J train.
This is a Manhattan bound J express train.
This is a Broad Street bound J express train.
This is a Broad Street bound J train.
This is a Chambers Street bound J train.
(J) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound J train.
This is a Brooklyn bound J express train.
This is a Queens bound J train.
This is a Jamaica bound J train.
This is a Jamaica bound J express train.
(L) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound L train.
This is an 8 Avenue bound L train.
(L) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound L train.
This is a Broadway Junction bound L train.
This is a Canarsie bound L train.
(M) Downtown
This is a Mrytle Avenue bound M train.
This is a Brooklyn bound M train.
This is a Manhattan bound M local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound M local train.
This is a 9 Avenue bound M local train.
This is a Bay Parkway bound M local train.
(M) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound M local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound M local train.
This is a Queens bound M local train.
This is a Middle Village-Metropolitan Avenue bound M train.
(N) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound N train.
This is a Brooklyn bound N local train.
This is a Gravesend bound N express train.
(N) Uptown
This is a Pacific Street bound N express train.
This is a Manhattan bound N express train.
This is a Queens bound N local train.
This is an Astoria bound N train.
(Q) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound (Q) express train.
This is a Brighton Beach bound (Q) local train.
(Q) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound (Q) local train.
This is a Midtown bound (Q) express train.
Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound express train.
This is a Brighton Beach bound express train.
Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound express train.
This is a Midtown bound express train.
(R) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound R local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound R local train.
This is a Bay Ridge bound R local train.
(R) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound R local train.
This is a 36 Street bound R train.
This is a Queens bound R local train.
This is a Forest Hills bound R local train.
(V) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound V local train.
This is a Lower East Side bound V local train.
(V) Uptown
This is a Queens bound V local train.
This is a Forest Hills bound V local train.
(W) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound W train.
This is a Brooklyn bound W express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound W local train via Lower Manhattan.
This is a Coney Island bound W express train.
This is a Coney Island bound W local train.
(W) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound W express train.
This is a Manhattan bound W local train.
This is a Queens bound W express train.
This is a Queens bound W local train.
This is an Astoria bound train.
(Z) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound Z train.
This is a Mahattan bound Z express train.
This is a Broad Street bound Z express train.
(Z) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound Z express train.
This is a Queens bound Z express train.
This is a Jamaic bound Z train.
Shuttles
42 Street Shuttle
This is a Grand Central bound 42 Street Shuttle train.
This is a Times Square bound 42 Street Shuttle train.
Ozone Park Shuttle
This is a Queens bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
This is an Ozone Park bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
This is a Brooklyn bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
This is an Euclid Avenue bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
Rockaway Park Shuttle
This is a Rockaway Park bound Rockaway Park Shuttle train.
This is a Broad Channel bound Rockaway Shuttle.
Grand Street Shuttle
This is a Grand Street bound Grand Street Shuttle train.
This is a West 4 Street bound Grand Street SHuttle train.
Franklin Avenue Shuttle
This is a Frankln Avenue bound Franklin Avenue Shuttle train.
This is a Prospect Park bound Franklin Avenue Shuttle train.
Staten Island Railroad
This is a Tottenville bound Staten Island Railroad train.
This is a Ball Park bound Staten Island Railroad train.
This is a Saint George bound Staten Island Railroad train.
Did you have any luck finding web space to host your announcements?
By the way if anyone wants me to record announcements, I could in a few days after I get my new mp3 player from my uncle, which has voice recording capability.
I would have to test it out first to make sure it works properly.
I run my tape-recorder whenever I step on a bus/streetcar/subway car/train that looks like it could feature automated announcements, and so far the "announcements" folder on my PC takes up 4.28 GB of space and contains 8,515 files, 95% of which I have recorded myself (pulled the rest off the web).
I'm sure you can fill a Gigabyte of two with just NYC Subway announcements ;o)
This is a Manhattan bound 6 local train
do not exist.
I heard a conductor on the E train announce "This is an E train to Queens" as long as we were in Manhattan. He changed his announcements after we traversed the 53rd Street tunnel.
The F trains I board in the morning sometimes announce that it's a "Manhattanbound F train" and once it gets to Manhattan, it becomes a "Brooklynbound F train." It varies with the C/Rs, however.
(3)(Lenox Jerome connection possible versions)
This is a Manhattan bound 3 express train
This is a Bronx bound 3 express train
This is a Bronx bound 3 express train via the Lexington Avenue Line
This is a Bedford Park Boulevard bound 3 train
This is a Bedford Park Boulevard bound 3 express train
This is a Woodlawn bound 3 express train
This is a Woodlawn bound 3 train
(4)(Jerome express versions)
This is a Woodlawn bound 4 local train
This is a Woodlawn bound 4 express train
This is a 38th St Yard bound garbage train.
This is a Coney Island bound work train.
This is a Jamaica bound wash train.
This a 76th Street bound...
Service will begin officially Dec 6, but may actually start earlier.
Story in The Times-Picayune.
It's nice to have another streetcar down there. I wonder what they're doing with the busses, though. There was a nice bus lane down the middle of Canal Street that is now taken by the trolley tracks.
CG
Mark
How many years? Anything you saw moving on Canal Street during the ACS meeting in 1999 was the St Charles car on the loop or Riverfront cars moving between the shop and the Riverfront Line. The up-hill track wasn't built then.
The first test car to run to the end of the line was on Thursday Oct 2.
photos of Oct 2 test run courtesy of Edward J. Branley
Anyway, what kind of streetcars are they going to use, new LRVs or repros of the Perley-Thomas or the old cars themselves?
wayne
There's a lot of information about this project at the New Orleans RTA website. There's not as much information about the Canal Streetcar project as there used to be, but there's a lot about the plan to restore the the Desire Streetcar. This one might just really happen!
Mark
wayne
850 Branford Active restoration project
959 Chattanooga Choo Choo Apparently operates on a short line
836 Warehouse Pt Mostly restored, used in regular service
912 NC Trans Museum Stored dead
913 Orange Empire Unrestored
832 Arden Restored, used in service
952 SF Muni Operated on Market St
966 Seashore Operating at Lowell
I rode that one in the late 70s in Chattanooga.
Mark
I assume they were on their way to Coney Island, but it was quite a sight in rush hour. You should have seen how many people thought it was actually a real train and were waiting for the doors to open while it was stopped by a red signal in the station!
I think it was the first time I ever saw redbirds running coupled with R62As, though, of course, the train wasn't in revenue service.
and we didn't send out any today.
If it helps for all of you Redbird fans, the R26//R28/R29/R33/R36's will always be in better condition than the R44's ever were.
So at least the redbird lovers can go to any website and get a set of pictures showing the Redbirds at every point in their carears. Us R30 lovers have vivid memories and a few pictures contributed by Glenn Rowe(I apoligize if I spelled his name wrong, btw the last time I seen a R30 in revenue service the year was about 1990 on the C).
My Homepage
Umm... do you have any car numbers of these spontaneously combusting R-16 A/C units?
I was always puzzled by the fact that 6400-6499 were all delivered before any of the 6300's. I guess that means that the 6400's were a few months older than the 6300's.
This arrangement seemed sort of backwards at the time.
It is difficult to understand what might have happened almost fifty years ago.
Don't forget the 6800 R-16s with A/C ;)
I used to know a station agent and he had an interesting story of his token booth area at I think one of the stations along the L line some years back. There was a construction barricade next to the token booth (is that even a term anymore?). Anyway, first a crew came to paint the barricade. Minutes later a crew came to dismantle the barricade. After an arguement between the two crews, a call was made, and it was decided that the paint crew would paint the barricade that day, and the demolition crew would come back a few days later to dismantle the construction barricade. He couldn't help but laugh in his boith watching this whole lunacy unfold in front of him.
I challenge you to find me a photo of anything remotely that bad on the R-33's that ran on the 5 until March (and on the 2 before that).
Do you see any signs of rust here?
Having said that, though, I do agree with your premise.
If you see any rust, kindly point it out to me.
The last photo's a beauty. Just the right amount of motion-related blur. Very nice.
wayne
Peace,
ANDEE
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
But will still get their @$$es kicked by the R32s.
Hear" Hear" .
Sci Guy :You obviously are a rail scholar of great repute.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Not really, I'm just extremely honest.
The info you provided made an IMDB search all two easy.
I'm going to take a wild guess at the station and say 174th St.
The Broadway line would have to separate at 49th Street and connect to 59th Street Columbus Circle.
-- Ed Sachs
1. Needs money.
2. Low priority. Doesn't improve service anywhere nearly as much as other possible capital improvements. Note that once the SAS is built, even just as far as 72nd St, there won't be any spare Broadway trains to route up CPW even if you wanted to. They'll all be needed in Upper Manhattan and Queens.
If that were the case, they would be sending the W to Continental to supplement a lower tph of Rs, instead of turning some Rs at Whitehall so that there are more Rs between Whitehall and Contiental than between Whitehall and Bay Ridge.
Also, after next February, they could run Ws between 57th and Whitehall instead of between Astoria and Whitehall if Astoria didn't need them.
The fact is that so many yuppies have moved into Astoria that the N doesn't suffice. Bensonhurst hasn't grown, so adding more Ns make no sense, since for most of their trip they would be underutilized.
Cutting back the N would be the better idea, if Astoria gaves to much
service. The N and Q are comming for the Bridge and run on the Bway X
and the R and W are running on Bway L. The N to Astoria requires
switching form the X to the L tracks, which would be avoided with the
cut-back.
You're 100% right. But my point is they're not doing anything of the sort because the N AND W are needed in Astoria.
That's what, about 2 miles or so beyond the current terminal at 57/7th? How many more train sets will be needed on the Broadway Express to run this service? At least 2 more, right?
No more merges! You will delay everything.
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/manhattan/wtc/ny-bzarch013475814oct01,0,2469735.story?coll=nyc-wtc-headlines
The new album is called 10-3-03: Goin' Downtown. Enjoy!
P.S. You might find a very interesting set of rail photos in that album, but only if you're a DC area transit fan;-)
http://photos.transitgallery.com/ShoeboxRelics/aar
Looks like its dumped into the middle of a field or something?
5 BROOKLYN EXPRESS
5 LEXINGTON AV EXP
5 BRONX EXPRESS
That means that the 5 is running express in all of the boroughs that it runs in. Does a line like the A have similar characteristics? This kinda makes the 5 possibly even more unique, that it's rule of the dyre av branch.
The Q diamond has that characteristic, express in Brooklen and Manhatthan.
The D has that characteristic, express in Manhatthan and the Bronx.
Thats about it.
The A is almost comparable to the 5. A relatively short local stretch (in terms of number of stations) at each end, then the rest is express. It has a few more local stops at each end than the 5.
Also, the A, even better than the diamond Q, is express 7 days a week. The 5 is a nearly full express in rush hour only, and only in the rush direction.
I think I first learned that in 10th Grade geometry.
R-32.
Because if I remember the R142A's have always been faster than the R142's. In the beginning the MTA had one test train, half R142, half R142A. Whenever the R142 was the lead set everything was fine. Whenever the R142A was the lead set the R142 would have problems matching the acceleration rate of it's Kawasaki counterpart.
Metaphorically, the Bombardier set is on the 2. IIRC the Kawasaki set is on the 6 (It's been on the 4 so much its hard to remember).
Click Here
Me, personally, would LOVE to have a R32 on the N again. I want to see how fast it can go through the 60 St tube (R32's speedometers are visible through the hinges of the cabdoor). :-D
Couldn't get all the car numbers, but here are a few:
9206/7
8937/6
8955/4
9070/1
8965/4
8869/8
8890/1
9320/9327/9317
I wonder where the reserve R-33ML Cars are going from here. If I had to take a guess, I'd say these were becoming rider cars....
-Stef
There is also some R-62A's with red stickers running on the #7 line also, which means they were transferred from the #1-Broadway route just recently.
-William A. Padron
["111th Street-Corona"]
http://mitglied.lycos.de/ansagen
I'm still sure if there was one index page linking all the files, they could all be hosted all over with one index.
I got lots of space/bandwidth. I can host them.
Maybe put them in a Zip file for downloading.
I would have put him on my killfile already but that wouldn't be nice.
These may already be in the MTA archives. The origin of this set implies that they are one-of-a-kind, but they are almost certainly one of several sets they may have survived.
They've skyrocketed past mine.
Chuck Greene
Thanks for reminding me, I forgot to post there about the 7.
There's a heck of a lot of good stuff from around the world, it normally just depends on the mode you like(subway, LRT, commuter, long-haul). But I use the NYC ones mostly because I cant' stay out of the US for too long. :)
Sadly, it was the last hurrah :(
Your baseball knowledge exceeds your subway expertise.
Which, in turn, exceeds your subway expertise.
But it says nothing about your baseball expertise. That could be much greater than mine.
They finished way back, much like the Mets (who would take their place in '62) would do every year.
I read Campy's widow is selling his MVP plaques and donating the proceeds to charity.
Was Willie Mays playing for the Giants by then? His brilliant center-field defense and circus-type catches were one of the reasons the Giants swept the Indians in the 1954 World Series.
October 3, 1951 was the day of Bobby Thompson's shot heard 'round the world. Russ Hodges called it this way:
"Brooklyn leading, 4-2, Thompson up there swinging. One out, last of the ninth, Bobby Thompson takes a strike call on the inside corner....Bobby batting .292......he's had a single and a double and he drove in the Giants' first run with a long fly to center...Brooklyn leads it, 4-2. Hartung at third, even with the bag, not taking any chances...Lockman at second without too big of a lead, but he'll be running like the wind if Bobby gets a hold of one...Branca throws...there's a long shot....I think it's gonna be, I believe...THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT!! THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT!!! THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT!!! THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT!!! Bobby Thompson hit it into the lower deck of the left field seats, the Giants win the pennant, and they're going crazy, they're going crazy. THEY'VE WON!!!!!!!!!!
P. S. Willie Mays was in the on deck circle when Thompson hit that home run.
What about the time (I think it was in the 54 series) Willie turned an inside-the-park home run into a double? Any other center fielder - hey, forget it.
Then there was that memorable over-the-shoulder catch Willie made that is still shown today. They say he purposely wore his cap in such a way that it would fall off his head when he threw the ball back to the infield.
That was the Giants' fifth straight win, and they would win 11 more before they lost again.
Say Fred, did you make it to church that day? Feast of the Assumption, you know.:)
Mays could have had more home runs, but, according to a biography I read, Leo Durocher at one point had him focusing on getting on base. He didn't want Mays to go for solo home runs because Mays was good on the bases and Durocher saw a way to increase team scoring this way.
You could also include two other factors that probably cost Mays a few more home runs:
He spent most of 1952 and all of 1953 in military service.
He had the misfortune of playing in Candlestick Park, where the wind wreaked havoc on righthanded hitters.
Mays hit .347 in 1958, and that included a two-month slump in mid-season. You have to wonder what he would have hit had he not had that slump.
The greater impact on him (as it was on Ted Williams, obviously) were the years in the service. Hank Aaron would probably still have the record, but it would have been someone else's that would have been broken, rather than The Babe's.
Here's something else to think about: what if Lou Gehrig hadn't gotten sick (and let's not even talk about Mickey Mantle and his injuries). Figure out the average amount of homers he hit in a season (to say nothing of his amazing RBI totals), and picture him playing another 5-6 seasons (and he would have, given his feelings about Babe Ruth). He wasn't quite 36 years old when he stopped playing. That record would have been his.
Another thing about Gehrig. Playing for teams that first featured Babe Ruth and then Joe DiMaggio, he was the cleanup hitter and team leader. That says something.
Ted Williams in Yankee Stadium.
Joe DiMaggio in Fenway Park.
Mickey Mantle in Ebbets Field.
The Giants were in Philly when Mays joined them, and when he stepped into the batting cage for the first time, he started hitting bullets everywhere. Everybody stopped dead in their tracks to watch, and Leo said, "I swear I'm gonna marry him!"
Willie wound up being named Rookie of the Year for 1951. He also hit the fly ball during the World Series that caused Mickey Mantle to tear up his knee.
If you ask me, IMHO the Mets should not retire his #24. As much as I liked and admired Willie, his contribution to the Mets was minimal. He had nothing left by the time the Mets got him.
As far as Mays and stolen bases are concerned, bear in mind that he was playing in an era when that didn't really happen very much. The best line about that came when people people were making a fuss about Jose Canseco hitting 40 homers and stealing 40 bases in a season. Mickey Mantle said something along the lines of "If I knew that people were going to make such a fuss about it, I would have done it."
Think about someone with Willie Mays' talent, speed, and brains on the basepaths today (or Mickey Mantle or Jackie Robinson). How many bases would he steal in a season today?
Subtalkers are correct, in my opinion, when speaking of Mantle, Mays, Williams, etc. They were complete players. Even though he wasn't a New Yorker, look at Stan Musial's 1948 stats. He led the NL in every category except HR's, and he missed that by 1. Also, Joe Di Maggio almost became the only big leaguer ever to have more home runs than strikeouts. He missed by doing badly in 1951, his last season, and still wound up with 367 strikeouts and 361 home runs. That's bat control.
1948 was Musial's career season. He batted .376 with 230 hits or almost 1.5 hits per game.
Every time the Dodgers played the Cardinals that year it seemed like Stan Musial got a hit.
It wasn't only against the Dodgers. His season on base percentage was .450 and slugging percentage was .702.
Next year, 1949, they were able to get him out more regularly but he still was a terror at Ebbets Field.
He slumped to .338; his obp was down marginally to .438. The reason was that he walked much more - the league wouldn't pitch to him because St. Louis was more of a contender in '49 than in '48.
I'm afraid your memory of 1949 is as clouded as your current political judgment. :-)
This ususally settles most baseball disagreements.
This ususally settles most baseball disagreements.
Stephen: A great link. Thank you.
As to Fred's political judgement. I think its due to that stuff that Dr Timothy Leary put in the drinking water years ago. It obscures reality.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Carl's .344 followed a season in which he hit .247, mainly because grit lodged in his corneas prevented him from seeing the ball properly. After eye surgery, he claimed the ball "looked as big as a grapefruit."
I think it's safe to say Furillo hated Durocher until the day he died.
Speaking of Brock, did you know that he is one of onlt three men ever to hit a home run into the center field bleachers in the Polo Grounds?
They say that Brock had nearly circled the bases by the time his home run landed.
Mays is my favorite baseball player.
At exactly 3:58 in the afternoon of October 4, 1955 at Yankee Stadium in the Bronx, Pee Wee Reese fielded Elston Howard's grounder and threw to Gil Hodges at first for the final out, leading the then Brooklyn Dodgers to a 2-0 win over the New York Yankees for Brooklyn's first and only World Series Championship.
The year we moved to Connecticut, my old high school football team in New Jersey went undefeated. This was right after I gave away my Nolan Ryan rookie card.
Fred: What's a Dodger?
The Yanks just best the Twins 8 to 1 to take the Divisional Playoff.
Next: Hopefully the Red Sox.
Where going to have to add a new tier to Yankee Stadium to accomodate all those championship pennants.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Fred: The New York Yankees were originally the Baltimore Orioles. When the franchise moved to The Bronx they played for a while at Hilltop Park and were known as the New York Hilltoppers.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Hilltop Park was in Manhattan not the Bronx. The Highlanders later moved into the Polo Grounds and shared it with the Giants and changed their name to Yankees. John McGraw gave the Yankees one year to vacate, after they became successful and won the 1921 pennant.
Maybe they should call it the Yankee Series.
The Yankees (with the help of George Steinbrenner's checkbook) take it quite seriously. They really do think they own it, and more often than not have provided proof of that.
Stephen: I stand corrected. I had my parks mixed up.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Home plate would have been near Ft Washington Ave and 165th St.
This was important because?
My thoughts entirely.
This was important because?
Exactly. Now if they'd said that Surrey had won the County Championship in 1955, that would have been interesting.
Ya know, sometimes, you Brits are...
The same could be said for Harmon Killebrew, but I won't go any further.
When he got his chance, he became one of the greatest pitchers I've ever seen (along with Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, and Tom Seaver). It could have happened earlier.
Nope.
Starting lineup according to the scoreboard was:
19 - Gilliam - 2B
9 - Cimoli - RF
4 - Snider - CF
14 - Hodges - 1B
15 - Amoros - LF
43 - Neal - SS
1 - Reese - 3B
8 - Rosboro - C
45 - Podres - P
(Several other World Series were won by the Los Angeles National League Baseball Team...a team that had and has no right to the name Dodgers a name that expired in 1957.
Please note that after the Dodgers moved to Los Angeles, Johnny Podres was a very frequent visitor to Hollywood Park race track. Every time my firends and I were there (very frequently), Podres was there. He was lucky that the races were during the day and the ballgames were at night. I guess that was his idea of a double header.
http://baseball-almanac.com/ws/yr1955ws.shtml
I know that Brighton used to connect to tracks 1, 3 and 4, then this was changed to 2, 3 and 4. Are all three used today?
No.
My question was when track 1 was restored. It would be logical that 1 would be the first track restored since it was also the first one removed.
No.
Erecting a complicated construction is like playing chess. You don't want to stick one piece in the way of the other without a good reason to do so.
How things are put back together again would normally include building from the middle out. So tracks one and two might be removed first to gain access to tracks three and four. Obviously tracks three and four would have to be put back before tracks one and two could be put back.
But *normal* does not apply here because something has to remain open for the (W) (soon to be the (B) train) to use. It appears to me that tracks one and two will be put back first so that the (B) train can be moved to that platform while the seven and eight tracks are being rebuilt.
DISCLAIMER: I don't *know* what they are doing, since I cannot see Coney Island from the middle of North Dakota: My comments only apply to what *could* be the logic to the situation.
Elias
Track 1 has been back in place for about a year, IINM. There's a lot of room underneath to work on the other tracks.
Mark
“I see a large 7 in your future…”
MNR/LIRR M-3 (1985-86)
Baltimore Metro cars (1984)
Miami Metrorail cars (1984)
Chicago CTA 2600 series (1980-88)
stainless steel DMUs for Portuguese Railway (1989)
Now wait just one minute here !
Any talk of Henry Ford's invention, Greyhoud or Robert Mose is considered "off topic" ... please be careful
:0)
:0)
The work that TA crews do is really admirable.
Do you think the TA should install small fold down pneumatic toilets with 3 or 5-gallon waste tanks in the full transverse cab?
Think just came out applauding crews for not taking any comfort breaks during August and shows the diminishing #s from previous years. Guess they started threatening more and more explaining the #'s.
Don't know if it still holds true, but I know a few months back on the J line a TSS had to meet the train when a crew member requested a comfort and a report had to be filed.
Last winter contractors cut the pipe heater at Met. The heater prevents the waste from freezing as the crew facilities are exposed to the elements. The bathroom was out for over two weeks. At one point a manager suggested that we wait until spring so the line could thaw. Frozen or not human waste festering for months is gross. About a week later the toilet was also out at Bay Parkway for 2-3 days and at least one of those days it was out at 9th ave.
Finally after all the complaints someone took a comfort break during a trip and instead of fixing the problem the line Supt created a comfort relief form where you have to explain why you needed a comfort break.
And "necessary and appropriate discipline will be taken against anyone who causes delays and RTO charges to line(s)"
It is sort of funny, if you have to piss and cause a delay they take you out of service and then you go to the MAC and you have to piss again for them.
That's right, I'm going to give myself a potentially fatal condition to spite the TA. Sorry bro, not for me.
Possibly. I know he was on the #7 line a few years back.
Ironically you'll find in every tower (where its easily accessable by crews, not!) on the #7 line a list of bathroom locations en route.
But nowadays, don't you have to fill out some kind of form if you tried to do what you described above?
I definitely ain't got the temperment for it today. I'd have to carry a laptop and a printer to spew G2's. Back then, spit happened and they were just glad to see you roll. Only had to do an "inspection" a couple of times, and yeah, control believed it, no questions asked other than "did you find anything? Can you move the train?" When I answered back, "yeah we're OK" you could hear the cheering in the background. =)
I doubt it's like that anymore.
An elderly gentleman from the SECOND car now comes up, to ask the conductor about all that clatter. The conductor doesn't seem too concerned, says it's probably just some hose that got loose. He goes out to the vestibule, looks down into the gap between the car and the roaring engine, for a few minutes, shrugs his shoulders, comes back and says that he'll check it out when we first stop (which isn't going to happen for another half-hour).
Afterwards, he comes back and says that it was indeed a loose hose; its end of it got all smashed and banged up against the gravel. He also said that the engineer called him earlier. He saw the dust and the gravel getting kicked up by the dangling hose, and thought that something was smoking.
So, guy that's driving a big honking diesel, with a few thousand gallons of fuel underneath, thinks that he sees something smoking under the first or the second car, and doesn't seem to mind waiting until the next stop? No big deal.
Then it could have been an axle burning up too. "Wing it or fling it" ... :)
Wait. Those aren't lavatories? Now you tell me!
: ) Elias
The result: more expenditure on anything considered anti-communist, including the interstate highway system at the expense of rail and transit in general.
-William A. Padron
["Wash. Hts.-8th Av. Exp."]
-William A. Padron
["Mott Av.-Far Rockaway"]
That is, except for the Montclair Branch which has no weekend service.
Also of note-
On my return instead of boarding at nearby Stapleton I walked down to the Clifton stop cause I wanted to get a look at the shops (Loco 058 and hack 607 in view). Lucky I did because the northbound train I boarded did not stop at Stapleton (or Tompkinsville for that matter). I think it was because the train was late. They advised riders for those two stops to stay on board and ride back. (This made little sense to me.) Also, they held a southbound train north of Clifton (just south of the crossover to the Clifton shop) for about five minutes prior to the arrival of the northbound. I assumed it was a shop train. But when we passed it it was loaded with riders and obviously a revenue train. Are they single-tracking below Stapleton?
Stapleton and Tompkinsville are flag stops.
I guess the Orange or Red are the two main candidates.
Northeast corridor, via Hell Gate Bridge??
As far as the NYC Subway is concerned, the only way trains could get to the Hell Gate bridge is via a connection to the LIRR (via Linden Shops?) then from there get onto Amtrak tracks. Wasn't there a direct LIRR connection (Bay Ridge Branch) to the Canarsie Line at one point?
If the connections exist in both systems, then, in theory, it should be possible for Boston subway cars (from the Red Line, at least) to get to the NYC subway system and vice versa. Of course, a diesel engine (such as SBK's Engine N1) would have to pull both systems subway cars over NEC trackage since there is no third rail on the NEC.
Koi
Not quite, but close. Orange line is 65' x 9'3"; Red line is 69'6" x 10'2". Blue line cars are the closest to IRT; they are same width as the Orange line, but only 48'6" long.
MOD trip 9-28-03
Great shots, Larry.
Chuck Greene
My favorite pictures are the ones in the Coney Island area and "that girl."
What propulsion do they use? The 68 and 68A sound nearly the same on takeoff. The brakes sound almost the same too.
Robert
Damn! A match made in heaven. LOL!
-Stef
I doubt it, since nothing that stops at Lawrence comes anywhere near the Franklin Shuttle.
Yes, it is.
According to the info on the web site, the line is scheduled to open in FALL 2003! WHEN WILL THE LINE OPEN!
Furthermore, there are still some small jobs to be finished here and there along the line. In Riverside, for instance, the pedestrian crossings over the tracks still have missing sections to be filled in.
In an article in the Courier-Post a couple days ago, an NJT spokesman declined to speculate on a starting date.
BTW, November 15 is when the HBLR extension to 22nd Street in Bayonne opens. See at the bottom of this page for HBLR Substitute Busing This will be the first section of MOS-2 to open on HBLR. North of Hoboken is rumoured for mid-2004.
Great news. Probably just in time for PATH's opening. AirTrain-JFK will be open around that time as well. And 3 months after that, the Manny B will be open to full subway service again.
We have much to be thankful for.
Management decision to delay startup until all cars have run X thousand miles in testing and everything seems to work.
As a result of testing so far, several communities have lowered the maximum allowed speed through grade crossings, so (once service begins) the trip will take longer than originally planned.
At least people on the Trenton and NY end of NJT's operations have something to be happy for. HBLR, Secaucus Transfer... we on the Camden and Philly end still have no SJLRT to speak of, and the onl other rail service is either the repetitive PATCO or the infrequent ACRL...
I REALLY wanna get back to DC for another trip...
In my wanderings around the SNJLRTS, I've seen very little of NJT; I've seen Bechtel (construction) and Bombardier (operation).
If the SNJLRTS had been built as a "standard" Light Rail line (electrified) we'd be looking at months & months of testing.
Mark
As for designing actual construction projects such as new stations and renovation projects, it's a pretty safe bet they use AutoCAD. I wouldn't even be surprised if the designs for the new rolling stock are done on AutoCAD as well.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Chuck Greene
--Mark
When they had to do it again a couple of years back, the decided instead to use different route letters, the "Circle Q" for the Brooklyn half of the D line (Brighton) and W for the Brooklyn half of the B line (West End) rerouted up Broadway.
-- Ed Sachs
I don't know whether you can say the K counts. It was always blue, but the original today would've been brown and/or orange. The third K - never actually implemented - would've been gray. I believe the R-110B has this sign. Also the 8, which would've been a separate color for 3rd Ave had it still existed, is now Lexington Avenue Green.
I wonder what letter the old Myrtle El route would have gooten when they did away with the double or mixed letters. It was called the MJ, but bot M and J were already taken, so I wonder what they would have called that line.
I'd LOVE to see an X one day... Almost all the letters otherwise have been taken up!
#8667 S 63rd Street Shuttle
http://mta-nyc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/mta_nyc.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php
In fact the February 2004 schedules are in stone after being reworked at the last minute.
Email not the MTA but the Bronx politicians.
Do you live on this line, that would give more credibility too.
Contact your local politicians not the MTA.
You notice they never whould think about cutting Brooklyn Bound #5 EXP service early.
lol, increases safety, what about HP itself?
People like myself who live on the Far Rockaway line see no regular service for the most part. Weekdays 10-3 and weekends always bring the shuttle train service that runs less frequently than normal service. Or shuttle bus service that at least doubles the travel time from The Rockaways or Howard Beach to Rockaway Blvd alone. This has been going on over a year now without a break (not counting 1 or 2 day suspensions of the GO).
Or how about those who live on the L line? Constantly Shuttle service from Canarsie to Broadway Junction or evern worse, Canarsie to Myrtle and multiple shuttle busses. Again they see this during the week as well as weekends. They dealt with this a good while as well.
So next time you wanna bitch about express service, be happy most of the time you don't have to deal with 1 extra train or shuttle busses as often as other areas.
"Or how about those who live on the L line? Constantly Shuttle service from Canarsie to Broadway Junction or evern worse, Canarsie to Myrtle and multiple shuttle busses. Again they see this during the week as well as weekends. They dealt with this a good while as well. "
Fortunately, this is a temporary situation. Normal service will ultimately resume.
I'm not only referring to only the removal of the El. Frequenly they are doing trackwork in the Myrtle area, forcing a Canarsie->Myrtle, shuttle bus, Lorimer->8Av service pattern.
Again, though, I agree with your pont. Always take a moment and appreciate the service you have.
I'm guessing politics. If their reps are anything like ours in HB its hopeless to complain.
Weiner represents the Bell Habor areaand is always complaining that the SST flies low over Bell Habor. Well, in HB we're in the direct path, and our Rep, Addabbo won't do anything about it. Weiner and Addabbo say we're not affected. HB isn't affected when the runway points straight at HB? Addabbo's office is almost right under the SSTs flight path. Go figure. Something don't seem right.
Its probably the same out there. Either the rep doesn't want to be bothered, or he has some other reason to do nothing about it. Maybe the people after YEARS of dealing with this see no point in complaining, nothing's going to be done. Although paying $2, I'd be sure to start complaining again.
Then look at Williamsburg. Those stations get rebuilt pretty damned quick compared to stations in other areas. I bet those reps over there stand up for their people, and that's why you see such progress over there.
Assuming by SST you mean the Concorde, you won't have much to complain about soon.
Then look at Williamsburg. Those stations get rebuilt pretty damned quick compared to stations in other areas. I bet those reps over there stand up for their people, and that's why you see such progress over there.
What stations in particular?
Yeah but it was just a refernce to how the community representatives are a big key to getting stuff done. The Concorde is the example I could think of here wre Bell Harbor's rep did something and HB's said the problem doesn't exist and nothing needs to be done. BTW Air France and British Airways said its not economical to keep running it, supposedly complaints have nothing to do with it.
> What stations in particular?
Basically the stations west of Myrtle-Broadway. Also the UWS the stations were done relatively quick.
Eastern Parkway & Broadway Junction... how long has that been under rehab now?
True to a point. This partly reflects the rep's effectiveness and partly the community's members' activism, or lack of it.
"BTW Air France and British Airways said its not economical to keep running it, supposedly complaints have nothing to do with it. "
The complaints did not influence the airlines, The Concorde's age, increasing complications of maintenance, lower ridership after the 9/11 disaster and poor economy in Europe and here, resulted in service cancellation. Part of the maintenance headache is the potential effect of FAA or European Union regulation: When the FAA orders a safety-related modification on the 737, the design, engineering and machining costs are spread out across 5,000 airplanes. When the same thing happens to the Concorde, British Airways and Air France each are looking at a major effort to retrofit a half-dozen jets. Witness what happened after the most recent Concorde crash.
I recall a documentary that claimed that the Konkordskiy (TU-144) was built from stolen Concorde blueprints, but the final product’s canard-wings were added to increase lift at takeoff, making takeoff possible on shorter runways. Apart from the canard-wings and the use of turbofan engines (IIRC), the plane is virtually the Concorde anyway.
And oh, to have seen the Boeing 2707 as a production airliner. The Concorde would have been embarrassed to show itself in public…
is probably because thats the design that works best for supersonic passenger planes
The very same delta-wing, tilt-nose, fuselage and tail fin? Not by far. Just looking at the two aircraft, you can discern that one is a copy of the other.
The engine placement is totally different on the Tu-144 than it is on the Concorde
Well, they had to change some things to narrowly avoid accusations of outright plagiarism.
Just like bullet trains, they pretty much "look familiar" however there are differences
Oh, come on. No high-speed trains look as alike as the Concorde and the TU-144 look alike as aircraft.
The Tupolev flew first. How do you know the Concorde wasn't a copy of the Tupolev? :0)
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=580149
The documentary you saw was completely wrong. The Concorde and Tupolev were designed around the same time. It so happens that the Delta wing design chosen is a very good answer to the problem of supersonic flight, esp. where you don't have to do any high-G maneuvers and bleed energy. Both the Russians and Concorde's team figured this out. Also, please note that the Americans in the 1960's had designed supersonic bombers (the B-58 Hustler) around the delta concept, and the French designed their Mirage series around the same concept.
The Russians figured out that a forward retractable canard was great for improving low speed handling. The Cponcorde would have found this useful. Both airliners could "droop" their noses.
Concorde blueprints were of little use to the Tupolev bureau. What they did try to get was a sample of composite materials (carbon-carbon materials, epoxies, resins).
The Concorde's engines could supercruise (sustain Mach 2 without afterburner). The Tupolev could not, and this was its greatest weakness (the Russians were behind on engine technology). Result: supersonic flights beyond a few hundred miles were not practical in the Tupolev. This doomed it in international sales.
The Tupolev actually flew first (1968) ahead of the Concorde.
The Russians deserve tremendous credit for their achievement. As a historical note, Andrei Tupolev was the student-protege of Nikolai Zhukovsky, who founded "Tsagi," the Central Bureau of Aerodynamics and Hydrodynamics in 1918 in Moscow. Tsagi had the first full-scale wind tunnel in use in the world.
Russia's aviation industry came up with a lot of great stuff. Their weaknesses were in engines and materials and computers, not aeronautical design. Their theoretical work was genius-level.
In 1964, a Russian named Pyoter (Peter) Ufimtsev, building on work started in Germany in the 1940s, wrote a paper published in the Journal of the Moscow Institute for Radio Engineering. This paper became the basis of America's F-117 and B-2 Stealth airplanes.
The documentary you saw was completely wrong
Well, I cannot verify that…I merely watched it and am reporting what they claimed. If I ever see that documentary again, I will certainly take note of who produced it. I think it was on the Discovery Wings channel…
The Tupolev actually flew first (1968) ahead of the Concorde
That I do remember…and I also recall reading about it crashing at the Paris Air Show too…
The cause was basically the pilot hot-dogging it and departing controlled flight, taking the airplane beyond its envelope. The Russians were eager to make an impression vs. the Concorde, and that led to their taking an unnecessary risk.
The Tupolev went on to serve as a cargo carrier within Russia itself - a very uneconomical role. It compiled a good safety record, remarkable considering Russian attitudes toward maintenance. The recent crash of the French Concorde on takeoff would not have happened on the Tupolev, simply because the Russians always take into account the possibility of having to fly into a crappy airfield. Incidentally, the same is true of the Tupolev 154 (Russian version of the 727). The 154 will withstand neglectful maintenance (the mechanic at the far Siberian airfield being too busy with his moonshine still to notice he has an airplane to fix) and less than wonderfully cared for runways - to a point (they do crash if this is taken too far). The 727 operated that way would be grounded a lot sooner.
Passenger service never really came back for it. But, with its lack of inter-continental range at Mach 2, there was little else Aeroflot could do with it. Technical success, but commercial failure.
The L still has the B42 "free" connection(which still runs at night) while the Bx55 no longer has night service, and it's daytime service is cut down to Fordham Road on weekends. L riders still get their "free transfer" even with change, or a TOKEN on the B42. L riders are lucky, while 8 riders were not.
Oh and the 6 also runs 8 minutes on weekends, so you think that 6 riders are so fortunate. For all we know this could be the start of cutting midday express service. Express service is important when you have to catch a bus, that won't show up for another 15 minutes(and this is having the choice of 2 buses)
Complain about whatever you think is worth complain about, but just make sure you know what it is that you're complaining about first.
I resent that!!! The train was chartered by a law firm. :)
Koi
You are correct.
Koi
That would be on the branch to Kimball, right?
Regards,
Jimmy
The Brown Line descends to at-grade after the Western stop, which was the original terminal (for all of about a year).
The Yellow Line descends to grade shortly after leaving Howard.
The Blue Line-Douglas descends to grade between the Pulaski and Kildare stops.
#3 West End Jeff
I cleaned off much of the dust on the back though. For now it's resting against the wall of my bedroom and it will probably become a mini-shrine devoted to the Redbirds.
I won't go as far as to have a candlelight vigil in my room when the Redbirds have completely gone... =p
The map at the following site was recommended by a contributor to the Yahoogroups Metroplanet message board:
http://www.columbia.edu/%7Ebrennan/subway/SubwayMap.gif
I think it may be of interest to some on this board who may not be aware of it.
It shows how the suburban lines and the subways are inter-related and where they interconnect. It distinguishes between 2, 3, and 4-track subway lines. It shows new developments such as light rail in New Jersey and the JFK airtrain. And even ferries.
http://transferpoint.bravepages.com/museum/bullets/index.html
wayne
Wayne:The R-16 replacement signs which began to appear in the cars in late 1969 show the MM 6 Avenue Local with the color light blue.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
wayne
Wayne: You are absolutely correct. I know the sign was green and I don't know why I typed in blue. But I stand corrected. Thank you
for catching that.
I'm not a collector of rollsigns but that is one that I would like to
get my hands on.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
PS MM Av.OF Americas Local was also added to the Eastern Division R-9's at the same ime but I don't believe that the R-9 rollsign additions were color coded.
I liked the narrow "M" they put in the bulkhead signs on the Eastern div cars.
As far as getting your hands on an R16 window rollsign, good luck, that one's got to be the holy grail. It has on it the following:
A (blue)
AA (magenta)
B (black)
CC (green)
D (orange)
E (lt blue)
EE (orange)
F (magenta)
GG (green)
HH (red)
JJ (orange)
KK (blue)
LL (black)
M (lt blue)
MM (green)
N (gold)
QB (red)
QJ (black)
RR (green)
S (white w/black lettering)
SS (green)
TT (blue)
Same as the R32 bulkhead sign.
Last time I was at the NYCT museum I tried to spin #6387's side roll (which was set to "A"), and found the mechanism had been disabled; I wanted to set it to "EE" just for old times' sake. :o)
wayne
-Stef
Um... Stef... 5466 does not have rollsigns.
This is true. Who says a railfan can't keep his hands to himself? LOL!
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
Yes, I have a photo of one in the process of being ripped at New York Days 2000.
D-Train: I don't know about vandalism but certain railfans did have a habit of turning through the rollsigns to see the readings. Of course no one on sub-talk has ever done that.
Larry, RedbirdR33
The period between November 1967 and July 1968 and on through August 1968 as everything was in a state of flux. There were the short-lived NX and RJ. New services were the EE and QJ. The old BMT TT lingered on for a few months.
Subway cars lacking proper roll signs carried metal medallions identifying their routes.
The newest cars on the system were the R-40's and 42's and yet all three divisions still had first generation cars in operation.
Yes it was a great time.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
That's good. There'd've been an almighty crash at Sumner if they'd tried that.
Care to elaborate?
Peace,
ANDEE
What Genesis has in computerized brains, however, the FL9s counter with beauty, Gruerio said.
He likens the Genesis engines to "rolling rectangles with a slope front" while the FL9 engines have a high nose and wrap-around windshield, that he said became a universal symbol for trains.
"Drive around, look at the signs for stations and look at the train pictured," Gruerio said. "It has the same face as the FL9.
Metro North F10 and FL9
2008 is still a ways, off, by the way.
They are lookalikes. SLE has F7's. The FL9 is dual mode, diesel and electric, for opertion into Grand Central terminal. F units have two 2-axle trucks; FL9's have a 2-axle truck and a 3-axle truck with a third rail shoe attached.
529 is a RS-3, i.e. the cab is higher then the rest of the body with one long & one short hood. The FL9s are EMDs vs. Alco & "Covered Wagons" vs, GEEPs. Naugy (RMNE) has a B&M Geep, i.e. 1732, it's a GP-9 from EMD.
Another interesting point, just to confuse you some more. Naugy acquired two GE "U boat" from P&W. 2208 was painted it in NH colors even though it never work for them, i.e. it was bought by Conrail, then went to P&W (#2208 is a U-23B & #2525 is a U25B).
BTW, The U23B was part of Naugy's "Railfan Week-end" as evidanced in the October issue of Railpace.
avid
although, i'm glad they are still around. but it's crazy when a taxpayer funded commuter railroad are not buying new engines that are parts-compatible with others, but hanging on to a bunch of one-of-a-kinds and making modifications making MORE one-of-a-kinds.
aem7
#3 West End Jeff
In the early 1980s, the most powerful locos generated 3,300 hp; the ones Amtrak bought had 3,000 horses. UP had a monster of 6,600 horses that had two diesel engines in it. Twice the maintenance, twice the bother.
Today, there are GE Genesis engines rated at 4,500 horsepower (as per the builder's plate). I imagine EMD has units of similar power (I have heard 5,000 horses). We've come a long way.
What are the main obstacles to reliability of a high-hp diesel engine in a loco? Is it a cooling issue? Marine diesels are incredibly powerful, but the ones that drive cargo ships are also much larger in size than the locomotive diesels. Is cooling easier for them?
After photographing the GP40-PH-2 from my train, I hustled toward the other end of the station since the headlight of the Port Jervis train was already in sight. An NJT employee on the other platform yelled "Where ya goin', sir?" and I said "I just wanna photograph this train." He said "OK."
Port Jervis train entering Secaucus Transfer station
Then I explored the station. It's confusing at first, but with 45 minutes to spend between trains, I finally figured it out.
While I was photographing the spacious main room, a NJT police officer approached and informed me that photography at S.T. was forbidden for security reasons. He was very polite. I told him (politely) that that was bullsh*t, but that I wouldn't get either of us in trouble by continuing to take pictures.
The above linked photos and 12 more are on this Webshots page.
I did. The inside station photo was actually taken before the protect motor shot. The last 5 train shots were taken after the "confrontation".
Was there any indication about why NJT decided to do this, instead of relying on on-train conductors? I’m sure this complicates ticket collection: if he’s going to EWR, don’t collect the ticket; if he’s going to transfer at Secaucus, don’t collect the ticket; if he’s going anywhere else, collect the ticket and issue a seat check.
Is there anywhere else in the system that uses gates for access?
John
Chuchubob, that PJ train was ARRIVING? Something's amiss here... One, there's no wires. Two, the train looks to be pulling in the wrong way. I know how the NEC runs, they run their trains roughly the same as SEPTA's commuter trains. But that shot makes it look like either the train was wrong-railing into Secaucus, or it was being pushed by the cab and was LEAVING Secaucus.
Oh, and it's definitely NOT a station designed for the local commuter, despite amenities for them. There's no parking, and navigating the station just LOOKS complex. NJT said themselves, the station is chiefly designed for transfers. You think they'll get enough demand for more local access and amenities? Because right now, it's like a downscaled 30th Street with no parking.
I wasn't there long enough to see what their normal operation is, but if the Main Line and Bergen County Line have already split before entering S.T., then tracks F and H could be northbound and tracks E and G SB.
I take it the Main/Bergen Lines are diesel only. And from what I've seen, that applies to Raritan Valley trains also. Speaking of the RVL, why in the world do they not run that at least to Secaucus? Or is ST devoid of nearby interlocks for potential turnbacks, meaning they'd need to go all the way to NYC (Not. A. Bad. Idea...)
And speaking of power, Are the NEC and North Jersey Coast Line NJT's only electric commuter rail trains?
There was talk about that, but it seems to be on the back burner as of now. I'm not sure if it's due to the logistics of turning around, or the fact that they would have to move the ticket receiver from Newark Penn to Secaucus so that Raritan Valley crews have a place to remit cash, get change, and obtain ticket stock.
>>meaning they'd need to go all the way to NYC<<
Bite your tongue! Besides, diesel engines aren't allowed in the tunnel to New York. (Thank God!)
>>And speaking of power, Are the NEC and North Jersey Coast Line NJT's only electric commuter rail trains?<<
No, the Morris and Essex and the Gladstone Lines are electric as well, though they run on different voltage.
Why no electrical power on the Main/Bergen/Port Jervis, Pascack Valley, or Raritan Valley Lines? Or Bay Head-Long Branch on NJCL?
Visit the link below. It's the best guide you have for the Junction besides a brochure:
Secaucus Junction
One question [silly one perhaps..]: On the NJT board at Penn Sstation, they list certain trains as going to secaucus...now..am I correct n assuming that EVERY NJT train on the NEC stops there westbound? And you should be able to ride out there on those? Just curious....
I'm pretty sure of two things though: The NJCL Pony Express will stop there (so Main/Bergen Line passengers can get to the connecting train from NYC that meets the Express in Newark (in case the scheduling doesn't call for the closest Main/Bergen Line train to arrive in Hoboken early enough)), and AMTRAK will keep their nosy ass out of ST. (because, in all seriousness, wht would it do for them?)
BTW, will there ever be weekend Boonton Line service? Or for that matter, any weekend service to Hackettstown? Or High Bridge?
Yeah, I always thought it was called "Secaucus Transfer" too. But NJT is calling it ""Secaucus Junction" now! What's up with that? Why is it a junction? Nothing is junctioning! There is no track connection between the upstairs and the downstairs! This is a travesty. We should do something about it. "Secaucus Junction" is a lame name.
Be glad they DIDN'T name it after someone on the NJT Board.
BTW, Harmon Cove-Secaucus Station is closed.
And, for those that need it. The current weekend chedule of trains through Secaucus
:07 (5:01, 7:17, ans 8:17 PM)- Main Line - Hoboken (except Metro-North times below)
:12 (7:22 ans 8:24 PM)- Bergen County Line - Hoboken
:17 - North Jersey Coast Line - Bay Head (electric consists; the 8:17, 10:17 PM, and 12:00 midnight trips to Long Branch ONLY)
:20 - MidTown DIRECT to/from Penn Station New York and Morristown/Dover (change trains in Summit for Gladstone Branch)
:23 - Northeast Corridor Line - Trenton
:24 - Northeast Corridor Line - Penn Station New York
:29/30 (12:55 AM) - North Jersey Coast Line - Penn Station New York
:31 - Bergen County Line - Suffern, NY
7:07, 9:18, 11:07 AM, 1:07, 5:01, 7:29, 11:07 PM - Metro-North trains to Hoboken
9:34, 11:34 AM, 1:41, 4:31, 6:26, 9:26 PM, 12:16 AM - Metro-North trains to Port Jervis
:36 - Main Line to Suffern (except for Metro-North train times)
No Boonton/MidTown Direct or Pascack Valley Line train service yet. No Rairtan Valley Line trains either (could they turn back here?); transfer at Newark Penn Station to Raritan Valley Line. Best connections at Newark are from RVL to NCJL, and from NECL to RVL.
And of COURSE, you're NOT going to see an Atlantic City Line train at Secaucus.
From what I've read, the official (dumb) name is Secaucus Junction
"Secaucus is just fine - it's not a junction, more of a "Transfer" or "Crossing" type of station. (The REAL Junctions are at Rahway, Jersey Avenue, and West Windsor/Princeton Junction)
Yes, that's why I don't understand what was so wrong with the original name (Secaucus Transfer) that they had to change it.
And I don't turn on that damned television. It's out in the living room basically to hold the furniture piece down. My wife watches it all the time though.
Chuck Greene
Also the reason why I've never updated from win98, my card is incompatable.
I do not own or watch a television set.
Elias
At some point, and I'm NOT joking about this, I ran out of space.
I guess I try to record more stuff than I have time to watch. It's a little better now.
I always watch TV and go to SubTalk simultaneously, so the two end up taking up almost the same time.
I guess I try to record more stuff than I have time to watch. It's a little better now"
I should introduce you to my in-laws. Would you like to guess how many 6-hour VHS videotapes they record, thinking they'll actually watch the programs (but then they don't)? They're running out of room to store the videotapes.
AMID TALK OF DELAY, OFFICIALS WANT TO HOLD SPENDING ON S.J. LINE
By Tracey Kaplan and Gary Richards
San Jose Mercury News
Amid revelations that the Valley Transportation Authority may not have enough money to open the voter-approved BART-to-San Jose line for 23 years, some local officials want to freeze spending on engineering plans for the project until the agency figures out what it can truly afford.
The VTA is poised to borrow about $170 million against future tax revenues to help pay for a preliminary engineering study of the popular 16.3-mile extension from Fremont to Santa Clara. The agency also plans to borrow $50 million that it could use to buy a Bay Area Rapid Transit District maintenance yard in Santa Clara.
But Supervisor Don Gage and several other VTA board members this week urged the agency to hold off in light of new concerns about the feasibility of the $4 billion project. The calls for delaying funding mark a significant shift toward what once was considered politically unthinkable: Maybe extending BART to the South Bay is a financial mistake.
Two months ago, before the VTA staff announced the possibility of a 12-year delay, transit leaders voted 7-5 to move ahead based on staff recommendations that the project be ``shelf-ready,'' or on track, when the economy recovered or in case an unexpected source of funds became available.
Some transit leaders continue to support that strategy, but Gage and others, including Supervisor Blanca Alvarado, say this may be the time to pause before pouring more money into a project that could be decades away.
``Is that engineering going to be wasted?'' Gage said. ``We need to take a realistic view and be up front and honest with folks of what we can and cannot deliver.''
The debate comes as South Bay leaders are making regular pilgrimages to Washington, D.C., hoping for $5 million in federal aid for the BART study. Pausing now, they warn, could force BART to the back of the line and derail efforts to eventually secure $840 million in federal dollars to build the project.
And timing is key: Federal transit officials review lists of potential new rail lines every six years, a process that will be getting under way early next year.
``There's really only one way to keep projects like this on their radar screen and that is to be able to show continued progress,'' VTA General Manager Pete Cipolla stated in a Aug. 27 letter to Gage.
The VTA maintains that the time to decide BART's fate is two years from now, or about the time the preliminary engineering study would be completed. The agency would know by then whether it could rely on funding from a new sales tax the agency may put on the November 2004 ballot.
But analyst Richard Carlson of Spectrum Economics said the VTA is already at a crucial fork in the road, given the acute local funding shortfall and uncertainty of state and federal assistance.
``The BART numbers don't add up,'' he said. ``I see this all the time in public policy. Once you spend serious money -- anything in the millions -- you have to keep spending it and you can't admit you're wrong.''
The special tax to build BART, approved by voters in 2000, will bring in $2 billion less than expected because of a steep drop in sales tax revenues. The VTA needs an additional $1.5 billion from the state and federal governments to complete construction. In addition, there's no money earmarked to cover operating the trains, not even for a couple of years as originally promised by VTA officials.
Compounding the BART problem, the VTA is short $100 million a year to operate its existing fleet of buses and light-rail cars and had to borrow against the BART tax to stave off the biggest service cuts in its history.
Those cuts would have forced the agency to lay off or eliminate 400 jobs on top of the 500 positions it has already lost in the past two years. Cipolla said he would have to lay off three dozen employees if the BART engineering study is postponed.
The board still has time to revisit its decision to forge ahead with borrowing the money for the study and the maintenance yard. Although the VTA has already begun soliciting bids from engineering firms, it hasn't hired any outside consultants. And it doesn't plan to borrow against the BART tax until January.
The VTA also plans to borrow against the tax revenues to build BART. The agency insists it can still cover its portion of the construction costs but announced this week that it may have to delay construction for several reasons.
The agency could try to speed up construction by borrowing, but the amount it can borrow -- through bonds -- is determined by how fast tax revenues are coming in. With far lower-than-expected sales tax revenues projected in the first decade of the 30-year tax, the agency would not be able to borrow enough to cover the annual debt it would incur by using bonds.
And some of the agency's cash on hand would be eaten up by the $550 million in bonds it plans to take out for the engineering study and maintenance yard, as well as for other expenses including $80 million to prop up its fragile bus and light-rail system.
``They are between a rock and a hard place,'' said Larry Gerston, a San Jose State University political-science professor. ``Now the question is whether they believe this is important enough to go ahead or cut bait.''
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contact Tracey Kaplan at tkaplan@mercurynews.com or (408) 278-3482.
Would it be possible to engineer a 4-5 mile segment, and go ahead with that?
I'm doing research on a project covering South Brooklyn 1875-1921.
I'm looking for any source material (books, maps, etc.) on trolly service along the South Slope and around the Gowanus Canal at that time.
I have been lead to understand that there was a major hub or intersection of trolly lines somewhere along 3rd or 4th Avenue east of the 3rd street bridge.
Would like to know more history and especially find maps.
Anyone have any leads?
Thanks,
Culverexpress.
There was a re-print of his 1959 "Brooklyn Rapid Transit Trolley Line in Queens" in 1998 by NJ International, Inc. I'll bet you can still get a copy. Others of his work are in libraries, e.g. the one in Hempstead, Long Island has quite a few, but you have to "reserve" them as they must be pulled from storage. I read thru several on a Saturday a year or two ago.
You are going to find that the "BRT" had control over all the trolleys in that Borough at one time, as did the TARS (Third Ave) in Manhattan and NY&QC in Queens. The elevated lines are also going to get confusing because of all the owner/operator names for the same lines thru the years.
Also know that many of the trolleys that once plyed the streets of Brooklyn have been preserved at several local museums. So, if you want to pretend that you are "Dodging" that trolley on your way to Ebbet's Field, or riding another over the Brooklyn Bridge, you still can.
Don't forget the great 1991 book "Brooklyn Trolleys" - it includes a trolley map too. As a rule of thumb, today's Brooklyn buses generally follow the old trolley routes - one of the hubs was around Flatbush Ave & Atlantic Ave, and then Flatbush Ave & Fulton, Livingstone, and Nevins Sts. Also all around Borough (formerly City) Hall too.
Also, the 2 volumes of "Tweleve Historic New York Transit Maps" do touch on some Brooklyn lines, although most concern railroads.
Finally, to be completely accurate, in Manhattan the trolley routes were shared between the 3rd Ave. and New York Railways, with most of the downtown and many midtown routes run by the latter (esp. Broadway).
Have you checked out Joe Korman's BAHN layout? Take a look round the rest of his site - it's one of the best transit sites out there.
Would it be possible to engineer a 4-5 mile segment, and go ahead with that?
If you have trouble with the link, go to post # 577584.
The pictures are a little...er...hi-res...but they're well worth it, the last 3 are BEAUTIFUL shots of this layout.
It's a really cool layout [not mine-HA, I WISH!] and has plenty of model NYCTA rolling stock. The cars alone must've cost thousands of dollars - they have whole full trains of R17, R21, R32, R36WF, and R42's! Anybody here know who these people are?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anybody here know if a model of SEPTA's budd M-3's were ever made? I haven't found one thing except one picture of a car that I think was homemade. I understand some company may make a silverliner model soon otherwise so i'm waiting for that as a collectors item.
I'll probably do a re-post in a few months to see if i can find one.
Line 1: North South, connects the Metro North Railroad lines currently terminating @ GCT with the Path Network, via a tunnel that runs from GCT to a stop @ Union Square, from where at least one branch will reach the WTC-terminus of the PATH system.
Line 2: East West, connects the commuter trains currently running through Penn Station via a new tunnel underneath 42nd Street, with stops @ GCT (transfer to line 1), Times Square and a possible stop underneath 10th ave. This line will link up LIRR trains with trains coming from NJ.
Transfer possibilities with the NYC Subway will be provided at the stations mentioned above.
However, a better solution than the East Side Access of the LIRR to Grand Central would have been to run the LIRR downtown and back out to Brooklyn via its own tunnel. Such a loop would effectively have doubled the capacity of the 63rd St tunnel and provided for direct downtown access in one shot.
ESA is not incompatible with your plan. The LIRR would have visited Grand Central, then continued to Penn Station, then downtown and back across the East River to the current Atlantic Av terminal, then back to Jamaica.
The current Penn Station service could continue, with the opportunity to more flexibly schedule Amtrak and LIRR trains through the Penn tubes.
Have $$$, can do.
If direct LIRR service continues to Penn Sta, then there is no reason to have 63rd St trains stop at Penn Sta as well as Grand Central.
Most of the expense of the ESA is due to having to cross under Park Ave and enter GCT. OTOH, routing the 63rd St tunnel deep under 3rd Ave would give trains a clear shot down to the Financial District. There need be only 1 midtown station at 42nd St. It would be a 4 track station, so that dwell time would not overburden headways on a two track line.
The next stop would be another 4-track station in the Financial District - possibly deep under the new Fulton St transfer. It would then be out to Atlantic Ave in its own tunnel and head back to Jamaica.
Such a plan would also address the new found desirability of providing direct downton access for the LIRR.
The problem with current thinking is that they are perpetuating the concept of terminal stations. Terminal stations existed historically because that is where the de facto city limits were in the 1840's. The RER broke that thinking. RER-B linked the Gare du Nord with the Gare de Luxembourg and provided through service for a couple of lines that terminated at each station. (RER-A did the same thing with Gare St Lazare and the Gare de Lyon, although the western connection is less obvious).
Terminals are extremely expensive in terms of money and operational bottlenecks. It really does not make much sense to continue building such dinosaurs, when deep tunneling is possible.
At least France had the good sense to make its railroads interoperable, when they were nationalized. We nationalized them but kept them incompatible. The MTA has missed several opportunities that NJT seized. The MTA should have standardized on high voltage AC catenary that was used by the New Haven as part of a master plan. They should built the electrification extensions to Huntington, Ronkonkomo, and Brewster as high voltage AC catenary. They should have retrofitted existing 3rd rail to catenary, where possible and standardized on a common 3rd rail pickup where it wasn't. Had they had such a vision then a north-south, east-west alignments between MN, LIRR and NJT would be possible. Instead, they've blown billions on perpetuating the 19th century.
Third-rail electrification has its disadvantages - you need more substations, and it's less efficient for power transmission. But it has advantages too - less obstrusive and not as vulnerable to high winds and weather.
Platform height was something that the RER did have to worry about. They solved it by making their cars compatible with both high and low level platforms. How many millions did the MTA blow rebuilding all the low level platforms, when the M1's came on board? They repeated the mistake when the new diesel coaches came in a few years ago.
It was clear to me. However, I did not type a transition phrase to let you know that. My apologies.
However, politics and NIMBY are an important constraint here. Witness the protests when Amtrak extended catenary to Boston. Thankfully, these did not block the project.
The grade timers at the south end could use some adjustment. The GT 20 cleared at 5; the GT 15's cleared at 3.
i,am the one with the red transit tech shirt
til next time
til next time
All 5's and some 4's were running local and terminating at Brooklyn Bridge. But other 4's were running express and going past Brooklyn Bridge. That isn't at all what I had expected.
4 Service Info: http://mta.info/nyct/service/subsrvn4.htm
5 Service Info: http://mta.info/nyct/service/subsrvn5.htm
Now for the big question: why?
I reckon they're single-tracking between BB and Bowling Green. Southbound 4s and 5s take the city hall loop. Northbound 4s turn at Brooklyn Bridge, and wrong-rail back to Bowling Green. Northbound 5s are probably reversing at Bowling Green by wrong-railing through the south ferry loop.
Still, that doesn't explain the northbound #4 I saw, while on my way down to Canal Street on a #5 local, with its destination set to "Grand Central". Hmmmm...
Footnote: the strip maps on the 5s don't have the lex ave local stops.
Still, my northbound #5 was correctly presenting itself as a #5, and correctly announcing, and showing the local stops on the LED display, while the strip map tried its best to keep up (and flashing only the express stops).
#4 Line: Woodlawn Local to Brooklyn Bridge
Grand Central Express to Utica or New Lots
# 5 Line: E 180 Local to Brooklyn Bridge
After 3:30PM Sunday Dyre Local to Brooklyn Bridge
Something you rarely see, the 4 exp from Utica used the switch north of Grand Central to turn around.
-Stef
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speaking of the TwiShor, I'm a tad confused... is that supposed to be the East Coast version of the Coast Starlight?
Aren't the Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Sunset Limited, and Silver Palm still around?
Oh the same way they're done on LIBus? I remember I was on a 6 train one time and the announcments was off. I know that on LIB if they are off, the drivers can put them at the correct stop.
So apparently they're not very easy to upgrade.
It was a fun ride, and pretty interesting how that worked.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Regards,
Jimmy
(When i'm having time to draw, i'll have some maps)
I'll send the inquiry by postal service and I'll email you a copy of the letter.
BTW, I updated the text for Queens Plaza station, but didn't see it included on the site. Need my email again?
Given the realities, Dave's being smart. If someone ELSE wants to put up maps and deal with the barristers, I'm sure Dave might provide a link to "this site is not under our control" ... but FWIW, I wouldn't take the risk either. Not without a signed piece of paper in my hand, and they're not handing THOSE out. :(
As noted, NYCT won't give a definitive answer as to whether photography is legal.
They already have.
As to their intellectual property, in the mid-1980s I negotiated an agreement with the TA for the rights to use the printed subway map in a computer game. They were cooperative, helpful and friendly and I had a written agreement to my complete satisfaction in a couple of weeks. (Unfortunately, the company wanting to publish it changed its mind due to market conditions.)
So maybe it's how you approach them.
Anybody try RECENTLY?
As the old saying goes, "if it ain't in writing, and if the check hasn't been given the bounce test, then it ain't real." Trust me here. I'm from the government and I promise I won't put the check in your mouth. :)
Over the last year or so, I have noticed a general neglecto of washing of trains all over the system. The R143's on the L/M are so dirty you can't see out the windows half the time. I completely agree with the Flushing line too, the R62A's (and the Redbirds too) were FILTHY pn the exterior the last time I was there a few weeks ago. I have been noticing this on all the lines. I have no idea why they are not washing the exteriors regularily anymore (the interiors were better, either average clean or better).
But I do agree on the fact that car cleaning (exterior-wise) has been somewhat lax.
last non-stainless cars in NYCT system
only cars to see the 1964 World's Fair, Beatles at Shea 1965/66, 2000 Subway Series, US Open, NY Mets games
last cars to blink over third rail gaps
last cars to have a motor-generator/battery set
kept much of their original charm through GOH (unlike the ML 26-33, 32, 38, 40, 42)
symbolic of the borough of Queens and its ethnic diversity
have made several apperances on TV shows, movies (King of Queens, Spider-Man, NYPD Blue)
have appeared on TV news footage frequently-as B-roll
are historic
landmarks of Queens since 1964
That's not all. These reasons tell you that they are very special and historic. Any why reads this and is moved should write a letter to the TA with all these reason and that will give them ideas of why they should save them.
Look back in the Archives to the years before the Bye-Bye Birdies era and you won't find any posts crying about the Redbirds.
Wayne
"Is it still there?"
This is great news.
Jersey Mike, I hope you don't mind my borrowing your expression.
Well, http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/tgvindex.html ain’t too bad as a starting point…
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
Short attention span theatre, foamers oblivious to the world around them. Still interesting to see you guys, content VERY thin ... Randy should have gone out to Heypaul's and had some shots of the arnine cab. Loved the guy with the Arnine tattoo. Sadly though, the production itself was chaotic and apaprently they tried to save all those disconnected thoughts with you guys and of course the animated map.
Maybe next year, I'll see about getting a videography permit and do a more proper "Foamers! Unsafe at any speed restriction" and see if we can put it on. But this piece turned out to be every bit as disappointing as I'd expected, except for the Ultimate riders and that short bit in conductor schoolcar. :(
Regards,
Jimmy ;)
What got me particularly was that they HAD a tripod permit. They shoulda used one. The reason why I was dissing the production was that it was way too "disconnected" and they used you guys strictly as a "bridge" between disparate content, sorta like a running sight gag. If they really wanted to focus on "buffs" then there should have been more track shots, more equipment shots (after the "ultimate ride") and let them show what "we" are really into. The "well, across the track, that's a redbird because it's well ... red" really wasn't one of the brightest things I've seen done. Having been in television, I was rather disappointed by the work.
The "ultimate ride" and the stories YOU guys could have told, along with shots of trains moving and front window shots could have EASILY filled an hour and kept it interesting. It was too much, crammed into an hour where I was getting a headache just from all the jump cuts and disconnected flows ... the show coulda been a contendah - and you guys were interesting and all, but it really wasn't very well done. :(
Let's see if we can do this again with a different production crew, and let's bag Zman and Wannabe in the cab. And a sidetrip to Heypaul's along with a ride in the sixth car with Unca BMTman ... now THAT would be a SHOW! Heh.
I wouldn't even give you guys a cab ride if I was driving a taxi. But hey, I still luv ya.
Well, in THAT case...........but hey, put it in writing. I read dem map posts earlier.
So how about giving us a bus ride instead? Or is that asking too much?
Regards,
Jimmy
"New York Underground"
"As the country's most extensive subway system approaches its centennial, we take a look at underground life in New York. With colorful anecdotes about the subway and its history, viewers get a glimpse of this fascinating and often quirky world."
That was the description ... prior to it airing, I figured we'd be seeing some historical footage, perhaps some of the "secret vault" of New York Times woodcuts and photos of construction of the IRT ... nope. The "Ultimate Ride" part could easily have been its own show, with shots of folks actually chowing down and arguing perhaps over this and that, discussing the histories of what they know - more shots of cars being cleaned out, maintained, the overhead cranes, train movements, nondescript tower shots, levers being pulled ... you could TELL that they went and bagged some "inside stuff" with the interviews with conductors, school car, and with that valued PERMIT, they could have done plenty more, using conversations between the "Ultimates" as things were shown.
The "vendors" and "police action" certainly would have amounted to another show's worth of material, entirely separate from this one. I've seen a number of other "subways" shows done by Discovery/TLC (NBC) and they were MUCH better than this. And given the journalistic background of the "venerable" New York Times, I expected a MUCH greater attention to detail than what was dished out ...
And "A day in the life" wouldn't be a bad idea for a show either. Pick one conductor and one operator and follow them around for a day, including train prep, crew room, layovers, LUNCHTIME and put out a REAL idea of what it's like to run the iron horses. This show was amusing to all of course because it was familiar faces, but in terms of what it coulda/shoulda been, I remain disappointed.
Me too, the only thing I liked was the animated map.
Peace,
ANDEE
Trippees missing their train with "!@$^%#$@!" in balloons over their head, a sorta "candid camera" scene. And to make it more amusing, have the "Ultimate trippers" vote people OFF the train if a connection is missed or everyone gets worked up over who has "cup'o'nodules" while the others starve ... and conductors and ops also able to vote them off the train. It'd be *SO* CBS. :)
But that show bit the BAG ... and I *so* wanted "Subtalk's Teevee special" to BE "special" ... just another hack job from people who just don't GET it. OBVIOUSLY the wiglets that put that "short attention span theatre" together never really RODE a subway train. :(
And Randy Kennedy ... NO FOR SHAME! We sentence you to PINE HILLS TRAILWAYS! :)
Discovery/Times/TLC is a channel that's done stupid "Extreme Engineering" things, and with the hundredth coming up, you'd THINK they'd get into it rather than making people who love electric traction look like a bunch of morons, hayseeds, clowns, people COMPLETELY disconnected from the planet. THAT'S what galled me with the schmutz that aired THIS time ...
You'd THINK ...
That a retrospective of 100 years of SUBWAY history would promote such concepts as "here's what it took to BUILD the IRT" (been done, but could be RE-DONE with the Times' rich archives of photos and stories done back in the day - Malbone (that's 15 minutes worth right there), how the original IRT became the "H system," how the BMT went from trolleys to gate cars to "modern subway" ...
"A day in the carbarn" where the collection of LoV's (as well as the more original Gibbs car and HiV's at Seashore and Branford could star) along with drawings of the original cars, closeups of how subway cars WORK, and then bring it home to the "high tech" of today ... study material for Discovery channel:
http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/tract-01.html
Folks, even the GEESE would be interested in seeing motors coming out for maintenance, wheel truing for a smooth ride, how signals operate and WHY their train is experiencing "a slight delay" ... SO much they could do ... instead, they wanted to make subtalkers look like a bunch of clowns ... granted, some of us EARN the title, but to even NON-foamers, there's a lot of interesting stuff that goes on "behind the scenes" that would be appreciated, as well as the historicals in how we got from there to here ...
What they did just ... well ... ANGERS me ... granted, it's cool to see yourself on teevee, and that was a pleasure putting faces to the names (not that I know who most of them are without the benefit of OTHER people hooking them up to their handles here) ... but that show ... well ... sucked. :(
Here's HOPING they can do better ... I just threw out some concepts and there's still time to shoot and cut it if the New York Times is SERIOUS about the 100th anniversary ... but the show I've now seen 3 times ... it just sucked. :(
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually, I'm looking forward to the future day when you do ... I KNOW what your motivation is ... Riverside curve just doesn't DO it for ya. :)
The production crew from New York Underground wishes to thank you for your "insights."
First of all, we did NOT have a tripod permit. I'm sorry that our Pulitzer Prize winning camera people didn't do as good a job as you would have done. Where did you say you worked again?
This documentary is not just about subway buffs, or what, as you put it, "(you) are really into." As fascinating as minutiae about the subway and buff-life is to some, America as a whole is not as interested in it as you seem to assume. This film is about the culture of the subway, and the different kinds of relationships people have to it. It is intended for an audience not only native to New York, but living in other parts of the world, some of whom have never even been to New York City or ridden the subway. Excessive use of track shots and long stories told by people who are obsessed with the subway system would not exactly serve that purpose.
If you really have been "in television" it is interesting that you would overlook the importance of appealing to the sensibilities of a larger audience instead of just those belonging only to the small demographic of which you are a part.
Again, thank you for watching and for taking the time to comment.
Sincerely,
The Production Team
It might seem that I am asking these questions innocently. I'm not. I feel the production crew was out of line in this whole segment.
I understand the concept that "America" isn't terribly interested in trains and that producing a program for "train buffs" is a losing proposition - hell, most of America isn't interested in NEW YORK. I would add though that Discovery/Times is unavailable in many locations, and with connections I still maintain with Hubbard Broadcasting, have seen your ARB's with peak audiences in three digits, comparable to the viewership of Oxygen network. I dare say that this particular program might well have drawn more audience than the channel usually yields, and I'm grateful that you even TRIED to do such a feature. I do mean that sincerely.
However, participating in criminal activity with the taggers, exposing your camera people to TREMENDOUS danger in tunnels with live third rail and moving equipment (did your crews take the full MTA "structure walk" training prior to that?) is unconscionable. And as to the production value, my comments were primarily based on very shaky shots (I saw photographs of the small handheld used). There are digital cameras available which contain image stabilizers that would have helped there, but the main objection was the lack of continuity which resulted in the need for so many vignette bumpers in an attempt to establish a flow of continuity that did not exist otherwise.
I also was offended by the use of innocent parties from this group here who were used almost as a running joke throughout the piece. I don't know if it was INTENDED to offend them, but the overall theme certainly seemed to suggest same. I also understand the constraints placed by low budgets for small operations, I've been there myself. And I maintain my point that there were many options available to explore the "100 year anniversary of the New York City subway" that were not taken, given that's what the program was promoted to be. And I also think that an audience would watch a show about subways at all would be interested in a minimally technical presentation of "here's how trains work and here's how the system in general works."
Once again my apologies to the "team" if they feel offended, perhaps a post production post mortem might be in order to evaluate the effort for the NEXT shoot ...
Kevin McAleavey, SelkirkTMO
FCC Lifetime FIRST CLASS, #P1-2-43516
Regards,
Jimmy
Tho atleast they served us well "The redbird is their Mona Lisa".
And nevermind that we TOOK a redbird on the 7....
Oh, you must be REALLY pissed about that. I'm sorry.
I agree, they COULD have shown the footage... but GETTING a 7 redbird
didn't require much effort on us.
and the visitors:
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Brian)
David J. Greenberger (David of Broadway)
Ripta42HopeTunnel (Mike)
And a surprise visit at the very end by Dennis Riga!!
Riga doesn't count (he isn't on SubTalk, is he?).
Lucky for yous I DONT claim royalties on the ( 1 ) Something ( 9 ) name..... yet.
:) lol
A Train to 76th Street
(btw, my use of "WE" in this message includes all of the official Ultimate Riders, which doesn't include me. But what I am saying here is my opinion and doesn't necessarily reflect that of any one else in the group)
First, WE WERE NOT TRYING TO BREAK THE RECORD!!! I don't know if that was ever brought up to the Ultimate Riders. But from the beginning I think Kool-D had an estimate of something like 27 hours, which was 2 hours longer than the record. The documentary NEVER SHOULD HAVE SAID THAT WE WERE GOING FOR THE RECORD. Also, from my 9.5 hours of riding with the crew, there was no effort on NY Times' part to move things along at a quick pace...which leads me to my second point.
WE WERE NOT AT FAULT FOR GETTING "BEHIND SCHEDULE"!!!! That was at least 90% the fault of the NY Times camera crew for wanting to take shots at specific stations of us walking through the station, or doing other things. The camera crew also took MANY "BREAKS", where they left fare control and did not return for several minutes. I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED that early on in the show they placed the blame on the "buffs." What a load of stinky ox shit.
Ok, this is all I'll write right now. I'm tired and still a bit hungry after just fasting 25.5 hours in Scranton and then riding the dog back into NYC. And then skimming through "New York Underground Wasteland."
I really can't comment about the rest of the material in the show. The cat scene was cool, but I didn't watch all of the rest. I'll watch it and comment on it another time.
I still want to thank NY Times TV for giving us this opportunity, although the end product turned out to be quite IFFY.
Or doing several takes of certain Ultimate Riders sliding down handrails at Fulton Street ;^)
This so-called "production" was an insult to ALL involved, from "moron conductor on the X-train" to "foamer waddling at a high rate of speed to the stairs and then being seen later ARGUING that "announcements are always wrong, I'm "leet" ... what's even MORE depressing than the damned show is how folks HERE that we consider our "foaming brethren and sistern who FAILED the rabies test" don't quite seem to GET how they were ridiculed by the output of that.
As a former journalist (and I use that term VERY loosely in terms of what passes for same on television) I understand the whole point of "storytelling" but in COMPOSING material for mass consumption, there is also a MESSAGE in every edit, every narrative, every "insert edit" and every storyline ... let's forget the issue of folks who don't quite "get it", a video production is someone's story, someone's attitudes, and someone's VISION as to what it all means. I've been a victim of "edit bay by committee" where no matter WHAT you insert or assemble, someone else in the edit bay wants something else, or another direction entirely. Been there, done that, burned the control track. :)
The intentions of the producers may have been nice, but this production, and its lack of continuity suggests that the producers have a SERIOUS control problem, or a lack of vision ... it just DIDN'T work. :(
I can't say I'm disappointed. It's exactly what I expected to see.
I was in the background a couple of times, unfortunately. At least my interview was cut :).
1. We were required to visit every open subway station but we were NOT required to visit every subway line, the narration incorrectly stated that. The 9, B and Z trains were the only lines we did not use because we didn't need them.
2. There was a lot more footage that was interesting to see, me making tuna sandwiches on #2500 on the D train at 5 AM. The race at Hoyt St, the narration of the Snediker el and Atlantic Ave station as we poigantly stopped at the now abandoned East platform that would've been priceless. 1SF9 and his #1 subway T-shirt, the preacher on the J line. Were these things added, maybe I will have to see myself. But they were more entertaning than a bunch of vandals running amok.
And the program was rated TV-PG so most kids can see it without objection. So children will see teenagers trespassing and destroying subway property, do we need them as role models for the future? No way. Teenagers who are vandals and scum get more airtime than the R&B singers in a subway car get only a measly 2 seconds of airtime.
From the early reaction I read in Selkirk, heypaul, and other posters, I am more inclined to disappointment than amusement. But on Friday I will give you guys the last word on this show.
Well, like, nothing personal or anything, but watching someone making tuna sandwiches isn't my definition of edge-of-the-seat excitement ...
Well that's not so bad, most people would have drained the oil right on the car floor, like the way people toss chicken bones on the floor.
Tip: tuna in pouches is cheaper and much more convenient than in cans.
You HAD TO BE THERE (on the next seat over trying to nappy) when this cat
popped his tuna out at 6am and drained it clean.........
the ensuing namecalling and arguments was ON-THE-EDGE entertainment
worth losing sleep over (atleast my sleep).
I'll be on the 7 line before heading downtown.
4 is the limit, or so they tell meh....
(You all know which 1 I am).
1 here.
I hears Kool-D is planning a (private) redux for 2004.
:)
Some others chimed in with their views on it:
Yo, dat shit waz da bomb yo. But WTF waz dat about dem buffz n shit? -SeveN
I thought it was very good. Since you guys went on the R44's and R46's on your trip, would you have happened to get the updated side sign listings? - Busfan
How do I get show like this? - cdta
I thought it was very entertaining, very good stuff. And thanks for the 4 quarters. Mmm, coffee. - Willie the Vet
I could care less - MarkW
I felt very sad for the young woman who sells her stories at Grand Central. Randy Kennedy wrote an article about her. She seems like a harmless soul.
I was also surprised by the segment on the two men who met on the A train. I wonder why their story was selected. It's nice that they met, but I wonder what that segment was meant to communicate?
Anyone want to place bets on their chances of getting ANOTHER photography permit? At least they did the Graf squad cops some props. They seemed the only part of this sideshow that came off looking semi-sane. :(
Between my not eating pizza, and our heated bickerings at 65th Street,
to our WTC ramblings, to being stopped for permit, to running
and @#$#@$ cursing out the Jay Street Tower, to the Opera singer
at Newkirk Avenue..... those camera cats had MORE THAN ENOUGH to fill 2 hours.
--Mark
That would actually be an awesome idea! After watching the NY Times show and also that 14 minute independent film posted here last week about 2 people who rode the whole system, it made me want to make a movie when I attempt this next year. Would you really consider doing it, or no?
* ryan
* ryan
Hmm, maybe hours of service laws should apply to Railfans as well. After 12 straight hours you gotta put the camera away and turn off the scanner.
My spin was it was made for the masses, and for the TV addled generation. Most of the facts were were straight out of the MTA's press briefings, and the pieces on the Vandal Squad and the NO selling on NYCT property were for the COPS fans watching.
As to the depiction of the subway buff as being "people who have trouble relating to other people", anyone who has an interest in railroads and transit is looked upon by the press as oddballs, since the hobby, while well established, is not "mainstream" enough for TV.
As Selkirk has mentioned, the best way to loose the "weirdo" label as railfans is to work in the industry, either the paid or the unpaid side. Almost everybody who has still has an interest, but puts it to use.
Nobody who visits the museums considers the hard working volunteers as weird.
Chuck Greene
I had a nice long chat with a couple of the "movers & shakers" of ECTM
on how to enhance cooperation between them and the National Railway Museum (Steamtown, to benefit both organizations. Hopefully they will take some of my comments home with them. If you have any contacts with ETCM, please have them get in touch with me.
I'm pulling my e-mail address off the posts due to an increase in spam . This is the last post I'll make with an e-mail address.
I had a nice long chat with a couple of the "movers & shakers" of ECTM
on how to enhance cooperation between them and the National Railway Museum (Steamtown, to benefit both organizations. Hopefully they will take some of my comments home with them. If you have any contacts with ETCM, please have them get in touch with me.
I'm pulling my e-mail address off the posts due to an increase in spam . This is the last post I'll make with an e-mail address.
--Mark
A lot of people, though, would find it unusual that a whole discussion could revolve around "Is there any truth to the rumor that the E,V G and F are trading subway car types?"
I tell people this: "How much do you know about your automobile? Do you ask about the latest in spark plugs? Do you wonder if premium unleaded gas would work better or worse in your engine? Do you discuss the merits of your Honda vs. your friend's Chevrolet? Do you go in for regular oil changes?"
Someone who depends on the subway will not personally take a subway car into the shop for maintenance. So the way a subway rider takes care of his "car" is by paying attention to how they look and ride and where they go. He/she then writes the TA or talks to other riders, or calls elected officials or the TA to ask for improvements.
Similarly, a hot rod enthusiast spends hours fixing his/her 1960 Volvo (or whatever) and trades notes on Websites with other enthusiasts. A subway car enthusiast (usually)doesn't have his/her own subway car, so he/she goes to Open Houses and posts on Subtalk.
Nothing wrong with it. But a lot of people are too narrow-minded to relate.
The show will be replayed at 11 pm Sunday and at 4 am, 7 am, Noon and 3 pm on Monday.
Knowing you guys, you'll tape each replay.
I'm booked to commit the above acts in SP....
All on Yom Kippur! Luckily I set my computer to record it without my needing to be here to push the button. (I was actually 2 hours away in Northeastern Pennsylvania for the holiday.) So I now have a digital copy :) If anyone wants to "borrow" a copy of it on cd, it would be helpful if we could meet in person for me to give it to you. Shoot me an email if you are interested. I'm in Manhattan, btw.
lol.
Peace,
ANDEE
Drop me in Gum Drop, Andee!
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Which he then won't eat ;^)
.....atleast not till 4 and half hours later..
Peace,
ANDEE
I am taking this whole story with a grain of salt. I will not automatically vouch for Newsday's version (I'm not saying it's wrong, either).
Link here
URL at http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-lilirr1006,0,11658.story?coll=ny-linews-headlines
But the legislation failed to find a Senate sponsor. The bill included changes to the funding formula, essentially giving the MTA Board control over the distribution of funds, a move that the Long Island Association, the region's largest business group, is against.
THANK GOD!!! The LIRR will live to its 200th Birthday and beyond! The loss of the oldest railroad still operating under its original charter in perhaps the entire WORLD would be 10 times more catestrophic than the departure of the Redboids.
It's NYCT that would have ceased to exist, split down the middle, which might have actually had direct operational impacts.
The way the system works now, the surplus from the tolls goes to mass transit. If the bridges need to spend it (on what?) there would be less surplus, plain and simple.
The way the surplus money is allocated is a matter of law, negotiated in order to allow TBTA huge increases in the tolls.
Not clear reporting, but maybe the source wasn't clear either.
Not exactly. Their is a written in stone funding formula that says x% of all tolls collected goes to mass transit in any given year. What the story implied is that the MTA wants the ability to make the decision that on how much goes where. The implications could be a overall cost savings systemwide.
And within several years, the line will take you to Javits.
Lose the Redbirds already. Widen your field of view, or risk missing out.
The 62s going toward Manhattan still have a RFW.
Vince
Go check out the video "The Hardest Button to Button" by the White Stripes. It has multiple scenes in a PATH train and in the 33rd Street station. It is a VERY strange video though.
Click Here to Obtain a Link to Stream the Video on your PC
HERE
K.Usagi
The Manhattanville Hill Billy
but was there any reasoning behind it?
One may gather that there used to be rush-hour express service on that line. Just like there used to be on the J-train to Jamaica when the third track was extant and not a random series of passing sidings as it is today.
No trains stop at the IRT City Hall station any more either—was there any reasoning behind its initial construction…
There never was an express track on the J line between Cypress Hills and 168th Street except where it still exists at 111th Street (that was a relay track to turn Lexington (Brooklyn) El trains when 111th St was the termonal for the Lexington El. There was also a center track at the 160th St station on the abandoned portion of the el. That was probably meant to store trains, as the next station, 168th was the terminal. Although the line was definitely built with a provision for a third track, those two sections were all that ever existed.
Back to the original question at hand on the 1, I don't know why they built it that way, and the sad thing is that makes it basically unsuable, not having any express stations. It would cause another scenario where you would have empty express trains passing local stations with frustrated passengers. Another killer is the two track section in between. Merging expresses and locals would kill any time savings the express may have encountered.
Could it have been perhaps to have control over which stations were express? Where the train heads down the center track, and just switch over to a busy station, to pick up/unload, then switch back on the the center track? (yes i know there aren't many switches)
Here's how I would do service if an express track was installed on Jamaica Avenue in the above manner:
Z Jamaica-Broadway Brooklyn Express/Nassau Local Jamaica Center to Broad Street.
Stops include: Jamaica Center, Sutphin Blvd, Broadway Junction, Myrtle Ave, Marcy Ave, and all stops to Broad.
Runs from the morning rush to the evening rush, all day weekdays in peak direction.
J Jamaica Local/Broadway Brooklyn Express/Nassau Local Jamaica Center to Broad Street. All local stops between JC and Broadway Junction, express on the Broadway El Between BJ and Marcy. This is to appease Jamaica Ave residents having the Express trains go through without stopping, and fits into the next part of my plan.
Runs from the morning rush to the evening rush all day weekdays in that manner. All other times it runs local from JC to Broad.
V Canarsie Local/Broadway Brooklyn Local/6th Ave Local/Queens Blvd Local All stops between Rockaway Parkway-Canarsie to Continental-71st St. This will take up the slack of the J and Z both running on the complete Broadway Express track. This would only work if the next step of my plan is implemented.*** The V would take over the Canarsie end of the current line weekdays, all day.
Runs from the morning rush to the evening rush all day weekdays in that manner. Does not run any other times. L picks up the Canarsie line on weekends and nights.
L 14th Street Local All stops between 8th Ave and Broadway Junction (terminal). The L would run in this manner and terminate at Broadway Junction from rush hour to rush hour all day weekdays. Nights and weekends the L would run between 8th Ave and Rockaway Parkway as it does now.
This would allow an increase in L service where it is needed the most, between BJ and 8th Ave, and would allow the full Broadway El express track to be used as the V would cover the local stations, while the J/Z would run express. Both L and V service is not necessary east of BJ as those are among the least used stations in the system.
M 14th Street Local No change from current service.
***This idea is attributed to David Greenberger, who originally came up with this unorthodox, but very intriguing idea
Ooops,, obviously I meant Myrtle/Nassau local, I was copying and pasting for the html tags, and forgot to change "14th St" to Nassau
Both L and V service is not necessary east of BJ as those are among the least used stations in the system.
Do most Canarsie residents use the 3 train?
Do most Canarsie residents use the 3 train?
I think it's just the area that has low density. Canarsie itself is not that low use because of the bus transfers, but Sutter, New Lots Ave, Livonia, and East 105th Street are very low use. The 3 line has almost identical stats. (Junius at 398 in the system is only two ranks higher than Livonia at 401), Van Siclen is lower than any of the Canarsie stations. New Lots on the 3 has less riders than comparing it to ROckaway Parkway. Rockaway Ave is pretty high on the 3 compared to the L stations. Although all in all, the two lines seem to share similar passenger counts east of where they cross at Junius-Livonia, so it's probably the neighborhood density around both lines east of there that make that stations fairly low use on both lines. As the 3 gets closer to Crown Heights and areas west of the intersection, the 3 blows the L away, but the L doesn't serve that neighborhood.
Yes, I believe its because there is no reason to use atlantic unless they live immediately below the station. All the busses go to Broadway Junction, and thats where all the cabs go to. Its a matter of convienince, and the area around Atlantic ave station is desolate. Broadway Junction is also 2 blocks from the LIRR as well.
Still and all...that has to be one of the more fascinating (in a railfan sense) node changes in the city. The East New York LIRR station is great design. It's pure Brooklyn. Highway on el, street level passenger railroad under the highway, el train passing over it all, 4-track subway running parallel two blocks away. (And then we have the long abandoned LIRR station on the Bay Ridge Branch...) I never hear much praise for it. A pity, in my view. Sure, Woodside is another transfer point between the two nodes. But there's no comparison.
I haven't been there since the change on the BMT station but I hope you can still stroll from the eastbound railroad station platform right across Van Sinderen Avenue to the stairways to the Atlantic Avenue station. I wonder if there are any commuters who ride the rail to ENY and take the L to Manhattan. Or deeper into North Brooklyn. Surely some must do this.
I don't think many people use the L connection to ENY to take the L to/from Manhattan. Whenever I have used it it was to get to a different part of Brooklyn (or Queens-M) via subway. If I was bound for Manhattan, I would not use the ENY/Atlantic L connection, I would just go to Penn. Look at it this way, if you were bound for mahattan, and you got off at Atlantic you would probably be bound for the L or the A to Manhattan. You would be much better to just take the LIRR to Penn for the A (and even the L is only one station away from Penn on the A)
Yeah, that is the situation. Still, gotta be SOME L.I. folks who work somewhere along the L line "west" of Atlantic Avenue, or "east" of there, and take the L train. At the very least, there are probably newer riders traveling from Long Island to the neighborhoods of Williamsburg and Northside. Hopefully there are some adventursome spirits amongst those, uh, settlers, willing to try alternate routes. The station area itself could change in the future. East New York as the "new Williamsburg". Such a great transportation center can't remain underutilized forever.
I do that maybe once a month, strictly for variety's sake. It would be a useful route to the east side of Manhattan if there were express service on the L.
The area the #3 serves is slightly more built up than the "L" line. Very large complexes.. projects and tenaments can be seen throughout the 3 line. On the other hand, the "L" runs in like an embankment sorrounded by a former railway passageway With no major housing nearby.
N Broadway Line
Slight nitpick - it's 71st Av.
Z Jamaica-Broadway Brooklyn Express/Nassau Local Jamaica Center to Broad Street.
Stops include: Jamaica Center, Sutphin Blvd, Broadway Junction, Myrtle Ave, Marcy Ave, and all stops to Broad.
Runs from the morning rush to the evening rush, all day weekdays in peak direction.
J Jamaica Local/Broadway Brooklyn Express/Nassau Local Jamaica Center to Broad Street. All local stops between JC and Broadway Junction, express on the Broadway El Between BJ and Marcy. This is to appease Jamaica Ave residents having the Express trains go through without stopping, and fits into the next part of my plan.
Runs from the morning rush to the evening rush all day weekdays in that manner. All other times it runs local from JC to Broad.
V Canarsie Local/Broadway Brooklyn Local/6th Ave Local/Queens Blvd Local All stops between Rockaway Parkway-Canarsie to Continental-71st St. This will take up the slack of the J and Z both running on the complete Broadway Express track. This would only work if the next step of my plan is implemented.*** The V would take over the Canarsie end of the current line weekdays, all day.
Runs from the morning rush to the evening rush all day weekdays in that manner. Does not run any other times. L picks up the Canarsie line on weekends and nights.
L 14th Street Local All stops between 8th Ave and Broadway Junction (terminal). The L would run in this manner and terminate at Broadway Junction from rush hour to rush hour all day weekdays. Nights and weekends the L would run between 8th Ave and Rockaway Parkway as it does now.
This would allow an increase in L service where it is needed the most, between BJ and 8th Ave, and would allow the full Broadway El express track to be used as the V would cover the local stations, while the J/Z would run express. Both L and V service is not necessary east of BJ as those are among the least used stations in the system.
M 14th Street Local No change from current service."
I like your idea, but I would not terminate the "L" at Broadway Junction. I would terminate the V at Broadway Junction.
As for the cars to be used on the new "V" line, it will have to use the box or slanted 40's since that is what's used on the eastern division. Otherwise, I would use the 32's that the E's are using and substitute those for the 46's..
As before, the E/F can both use the 46's as was originally intended.
N Broadway Line
I like this idea of a train going from Queens to Brooklyn in this manner. Four lines would be covered at once in this routing: Qns Blvd in Queens, the 6th Av line to BWay Lafayette St in Manhattan, and the Broadway and Canarsie Lines in Blkyn. I wonder how long such a trip from 71st Av to Rockaway Pkwy would take. Wouldn't the train have to relay at Essex St to continue the trip after going through the Chrystie St Cut?
Koi
I don't think so, why do you think so? (I may be missing something). The KK used the Chrystie cut to run from 57th to 168th. The mechanics between Broadway-Lafayette and Essex wouldn't be any different.
At Chrystie is a direct connection between the 6 Av Local and BBway tracks. For Montague service you have to turn there.
71-Continental 0 mins (from V schedule)
Roosevelt 10 mins (from V schedule)
Queens Plz 21 mins (from V schedule)
23-Ely 22 mins (from V schedule)
53/Lex 26 mins (from V schedule)
Rock Ctr 29 mins (from V schedule)
34th St 32 mins (from V schedule)
W4th St 37 mins (from V schedule)
Essex 42 mins (ESTIMATED from F taking 5 mins from W4th to Delancey)
Bway/Myrtle 55 mins (from J schedule)
Bway Jct 1 hr 2 mins (from J schedule)
Atlantic 1 hr 3 mins (ESTIMATED from L taking 1 min from BJ HL to Atlantic)
Canarsie 1 hr 11 mins (from L schedule)
Wouldn't the train have to relay at Essex St to continue the trip after going through the Chrystie St Cut?
No.
OK, the trip wouldn't take as long as I thought it would.
The track map clears up the relay question nicely. Too bad that connection was not used on the Sept 28 MoD trip (even though that was part of the original itenerary). Hopefully I'll get to go through that connection on a future fantrip.
Koi
Damn it. I have this Fleischer Bros. cartoon-like vision of the humming trains snaking on and off the express and local el tracks, done to the beat of 30s jazz music.
For a line that has such heavy ridership at each station south of 137th and such light ridership north of 137th, I'm amazed at how much effort is spent in trying to increase or improve service north of 137th at the expense of the stations south of 137th.
"... One may gather that there used to be rush-hour express service on that line. Just like there used to be on the J-train to Jamaica when the third track was extant and not a random series of passing sidings as it is today ..."
NYC built three & four track lines, Boston, Philly, etc. didn't (all at about the same time).
The Flushing line survives today in the way that the builders conceived the operation. Other variations have been tryed, e.g. "Skip-Stop".
Then there is that two track section in the middle, a requirement caused by tunnling through that deep rock instead of doing cut and cover which is where the three track lions are.
There and of course on the El.
Elias
IINM, the Lexington Line does have access to the outer loop (1 line station) too. When the 1 was not running, and no conflict was present with merging trains, Lex trains could have used the outer loop, so the R12 problem is not an issue, they would just have had to use R62's (R62A's). I do agree with your conclusion though, it would have been too expensive to justify.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I will send a .zip file with both 1967-1978 series and 1979 thru 2003 series bullets (only available in .bmp at this time)
file will be sent by e-mail attachment (1meg file size)
There was a nice graphic right above the letter to the editor. It showed the standard "S" bullet morphing in 4 steps into a Superman logo "S". It didn't appear in the on-line copy of the letter.
Rndy Kennedy and his counterparts at Newsday need to fill their columns every week. Sometimes it's good reading, sometimes it's drivel. This time, Gene found some drivel and responded to it.
That's good to hear, since I was born there. Glad to hear of its' good rep. As far as Woodhull Hospital, I'm saddened by hearing the critical comments against it. I remember watching it being constructed. The story of it was it was supposed to be of the highest quality for a city hospital. One of the points about I remember hearing was that it was to be designed to offer private rooms for every patient. Was that plan ever followed?
I also remember how it was the first new construction along Broadway I'd seen. It does look "interesting" from the el. And a McDonalds opened near it, which was welcome in that neighborhood. Back then, you never had many businesses opening up near there.
San Jose Mercury News Editorial
BART to San Jose or Bust is still the mantra of Mayor Ron Gonzales and some other Valley Transportation Authority board members. It's a visionary and popular idea -- but given the prognosis for the local economy, Bust looks like the better bet. Without new taxes, there is no way to complete the line, let alone operate it.
It's time to seriously consider alternatives to the current all-or-nothing plan to connect BART with Silicon Valley. A phased-in approach ought to at least be on the table. But it will be a struggle to even have that discussion. Gonzales and the VTA staff don't want to hear it.
The latest reality check was prompted by Santa Clara County Supervisor Blanca Alvarado. She asked VTA staff to analyze how BART and the Downtown-East Valley light rail project could be built without new taxes, given current revenue projections. The answer? They can't. Even completing BART in the 2020s, and the light rail link to Eastridge as late as 2034, each scenario leaves VTA in the red.
And that analysis assumes all the state and federal money originally expected for BART will materialize. Better get a magician on staff. The feds already have signaled less money will be available, asking VTA for a lower-cost BART option -- but proposals to be considered today would trim the $4 billion project by as little as $226 million. Reality has not yet intruded on the VTA's deliberations.
The BART or Bust gang believes it's important to keep moving toward the goal, bringing BART all the way from Fremont through downtown San Jose to an airport link at the Santa Clara train station. That's what voters were promised when they approved the 2000 Measure A, a 30-year half-cent sales tax for BART and some other transit projects.
But the tax is now expected to fall $2 billion short of what's needed. So others on the VTA board, including Alvarado and fellow supervisor Don Gage, would like to see more emphasis on the practical. Here's a novel approach: What can VTA deliver with the money it has?
It's unclear when this will be hashed out. At last week's VTA board meeting, all questions seemed to be put off until a board workshop Nov. 7. Some members say early January will be the decision point. Pete Cipolla, VTA's general manager, believes the board should wait at least two years before making changes in the Measure A plan -- time for the economy to turn around. Meanwhile, about $170 million would be spent on preliminary engineering for BART.
The visionaries would like to build BART at all costs. But somebody has to pay those costs, and they're not coming from Measure A, and voters aren't likely to pass another transit tax anytime soon. Face it, and start looking at alternatives.
Like this, please: http://www.broward.com/mld/mercurynews/news/opinion/6944120.htm
Since this is an opinion piece with a missing author, it is hard to ascertain just where the opinion is coming from. Also, no source is cited as to where the alleged “signal” from the “feds” is coming from insofar as fewer funds being available from them for building such projects—after all, the TEA-21 got extended to February 29th of next year pending a proper reauthorization bid, and who knows if it will get re-extended after that. Too many assumptions in this op/ed piece, not to mention too much bias against the VTA staff.
An opinion piece with a byline reflects only its author's opinion.
I'm looking for any source material (books, maps, etc.) on trolly service along the South Slope and around the Gowanus Canal at that time.
I have been lead to understand that there was a major hub or intersection of trolly lines somewhere along 3rd or 4th Avenue
www:eagle.brooklynpubliclibrary.org
could be very helpful to you in providing information if you type in the right keywords.
If you are looking for lines earlier than that, I may be able to look for one of the older books which highlight horsecar and early electric lines for you, and research the lines in the area of your interest.
The intersection of Flatbush & 3rd Ave by Livingston St has always been a "choke" point of many different lines leading to downtown Brooklyn (made tighter with the 5th Ave el over Flatbush Ave). Many of the old lines are today's bus routes.
There aren't any currently scheduled that I'm aware of.
Koi
--Mark
--Mark
The bigest issue is where can a train layup for a time, and yet not obstruct the whole railroad.
You id those places, and you will know where they can start.
Elias
Remember some people come in from NJ or LI as well as come down from the Bronx and points north. You have to have pick a spot that meets all three criteria.
Add to the above, that the starting and ending spots usually have to be "B division" stations since that equipment is primarily used on the trips in recent years. I can only think of the recent SMEE trips in June'03 and Aug'03 where "A division" equipment was used so that Grand Central was used.
Remember that the ERA ran a redbird trip in Dec '02 but that was over "B division" trackage, therefore Columbus Circle was used as the starting point and Chambers as the ending.
Meanwhile, join the Transit Museum, the ERA or a local trolley museum & get involved.
People orginize them and contract MTA to run them.
The Transit Museum used to run some,
Sometimes ERA or some other fan club runs them,
or
The MTA Employees of C-Division ran several as a fund raiser for the March of Dimes (MOD trips).
If you have enough money, You can run one too.
Elias
--Mark
Thanks
George Devine, Jr.
San Francisco, CA
--Mark
I don't know what you're whining about now. The whole state is under a budget squeeze, and the MTA is holding up better than most.
Last years dirty trains had nothing to do with money, but the draught warnings. The trains have been looking decent lately, with the exception of the Flushing line which lacks a car wash, and I haven't noticed any washes going to Jamaica lately.
Last week we were joking that there was 1 clean train in Corona Yard. It so happens that train was a recent transferee from New Lots Yard.
Of course, Thanks to Bloomberg, Bush, and Paturkey. Those Threesome will not be relected by ME.
Bloomberg raises transit fares, doubles MV violation ticket, increase parking meters to two-three quarters and get less parking min, sky rocketed business taxes, property taxes and rents, reduces sanitation program and causing more pollutions, done nothing to improve school system. Cutting desperate needed jobs. Threatening everyone career including mines.
Paturkey fails to resolve the city and state budget crises. CUTTING nearly half of State employment.
Bush spend tooooo mucho much $$$$ to go after bitch laden, suddam. Spend too mucho much to rebuild someone's country that has nothing to do with us... Whats the point?..They won't say thank you! Waited two weeks after 9/11 to pay visitation to NYC. Done nothing to resolve nation's economic crises and national budget crises. DOne NOTHING to prevent 9/11 ATTACKS!
OUR GOVERNMENTS HAS FAILED TO PROTECT OUR WELFARE AND WELL BEING!!! THEY FAILED THEIR POLITICAL DUTIES.
Bloomberg isn't responsible for anything transit-wise, maybe save for the Queens Private lines, but even there, he has little to work with. Paturkey is your main deal with the transit scene.
So you would rather the terrorists be given freedom to operate? It's too bad they don't always warn us in advance so you can volunteer to give your life instead of the rest of us.
Spend too mucho much to rebuild someone's country that has nothing to do with us... Whats the point?..They won't say thank you!
We should do exactly what they did after World War II: Let Western Europe fall to the Communists.
Waited two weeks after 9/11 to pay visitation to NYC.
This is just completely wrong. Bush visited on September 12th or 13th.
DOne NOTHING to prevent 9/11 ATTACKS!
Yeah, wouldn't it be better if he reacted to terrorist actions like all of his predecessors?
That's a pretty stupid thing for him to say. "Since you're raising the fare, it's OK for me to go ahead and litter the train." What do you suppose that will accomplish?
David
David
I cited that as an example of important knowledge that is "testable." There are other examples.
I haven't noticed that the trains are dirtier, but for argument's sake, they could be dirtier than they were a couple months ago. School is back in session, typically accompanied by a ridership increase; more riders produce more litter, which is handled by the same number of car cleaners.
- The train is departing from Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall, so the re-make is called "The Taking of Brooklyn Bridge 123".
- Mr. Green (Martin Balsam) would have gotten on at Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall, Mr. Gray (Hector Elizondo) at Canal Street, Mr. Brown (Earl Hindman) at Spring Street, and Mr. Blue (Robert Shaw) at Bleecker Street.
-Brooklyn Bridge 123 is hijacked between Bleecker Street and Astor Place-8 Street.
-In this case, the train winds up ELEVATED on the IRT Pelham Line. When it looks like the end for the hostages, the Pelham Tower (if that's what the tower by the Pelham Bay Park station is called) is ordered by Command Center to set all the signals red from where Brooklyn Bridge 123 is (between Buhre Avenue station & Pelham Bay Park station, closer to Pelham Bay Park) to the Pelham Bay Park bumper block. The train grinds to a screeching halt JUST BARELY before crashing into the bumper.
Now what triggered my memory was an accident that happened on the IRT Pelham Line where a train of R17's hit the bumper (the train was going too fast) at Pelham Bay Park. I think it happened in the 1950's or 1960's.
I dig the storyline... you could even make Whitlock Bridge be their
"escape" and plop down into a waiting BOAT... sending the consist
carooning off towards Pelham Bay and it's bumper.
Regards,
Jimmy
You need AOL or AIM to participate, and someone will post on subtalk that there is a chat in progress, and to message xyzusername for an invitation. They seem to usually take place in the evenings (8 or 9 eastern time).
Hope that helps.
How about the door to the lower Platform on the 8th Ave line ?
(It looks like a closet door, but it's not)
Last I saw, the MTA removed the stairways and escalator access to the lower level. There is just a trapdoor in the floor on the downtown A/C/E platforms now.
John
Walk to the east end of the Flushing mezzanine, where it transitions into the network of ramps. You can see that the mezzanine continues past that point.
Also, at one of the ramp switchbacks, there's an ugly wall blocking off a ramp that used to lead to the old east end of the mezzanine. The nearby mosaic sign was even painted over.
I have photos but I'm too lazy to look for them right now. Maybe some other day.
"On March 28, 2002 the BART Board of Directors approved the long-awaited BART link to Oakland International Airport via an elevated Automated Guideway Transit (AGT) system with a new station at the airport, and two stations along the 3.2-mile link."
I don't know when ground-breaking would be on this.
world.nycsubway.org
Mark
Mark
http://www.mathiasen.com/?page=journal&sub_page=archive&display=0000003047
(That was my attempt to make the thread on-topic.)
Mark
-Chicago Railways was taking delivery of the 600 "Old Pullman" streetcars that would come to epitomize the Chicago streetcar fleet
-The four major elevated systems (Northwestern, Lake Street, Metropolitan-West Side and South Side) were all operating fleets of wooden elevated cars
-The Chicago streetcar system was still six years away from unification and included diverse companies like Chicago Railways, Chicago City Railway, and Calumet & South Chicago
-Only one of the three major interurban lines, the Aurora Elgin & Chicago, actually entered downtown - the Chicago & Milwaukee Electric stopped north of the city and the Chicago Lake Shore & South Bend, the newest of the three, stopped in the south suburbs
All I can say is... it's about time! Go Cubs!
Frank Hicks
I just got back from Chicago, I'm afraid it was a mostly family-related trip, and I didn't get any good L shots. I now have to go back sometime soon to actually ride around on the transit, but it was great to watch the Cubs kick the Brave's ass last night with most of my extended family.
My family is from Chicago, too. My very first subway rides were on the L when we'd go visit the kinfolk.
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
In fact, I think all of the 62/62A cars were single units when they were devlivered but since then, all of the 62's have been married into permanent 5 car units while some of the 62A's aren't for some reason.
til next time
I will say this about R-33S #9318 when I rode it back from Main Street...there was not one scratched glass anywhere in that car on that day (except in one T/O's cab) after it was in 207th Street Shop for some time getting a mini-touch up there. In storage seen at Corona Yard on that sunny Sunday filled with white clouds overhead were two other eleven-car R-33S/36WF consists, one ten-car R-33ML consist visible, plus #9319 hidden somewhere amongst the R-62A's.
-William A. Padron
["Main St.-Flushing"]
One final note: 9587 still has the US Open "Green 7" logos. And it is in good shape as well.
Like I said I don't know if they've returned so its only a guess.
-William A. Padron
["Willets Point-Corona"]
They've been stripped, I'm pretty sure. The side facing into the yard is missing some rollsigns.
N
9734
9735
9308
9613
9612
9608
9609
9714
9715
9652
9653
S
N
9669
9668
9313
9651
9650
9575
9574
9610
9611
9595
9594
S
N
9582
9583
9318
9721
9720
9586
9587
9564
9565
9584
9585
S
And they were all still out at ~7:45 PM when I hopped off at 74/Broadway.
Note: Car #9318 is missing front bulkhead signs.
See this for an example
The same question goes for how the R68/A cars were put into four-car sets.
Lets say you have cars 2001-2005. All singles, take car 2001 and 2005 and convert it to a transverse cab, couple 2001 with 2002, 2003, 2004 and the non transverse side of 2005. I don't think the MTA would go through the trouble with removing parts for future projects (I.E. When 10 car R62A's from the 3 had to become 11 car R62A's for the 7).
Will the Bergen interlocking be ready in Feb, or will that take a little longer?
This is not good news for upstate...
Carrier shutdown
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/business/AP-Carrier-Cuts.html?hp
The article mentions new technology replacing what your plant makes. That didn't quite sound right; hat are they referring to?
BTW, I've just contracted to put in climate control. We're using Lennox.
Yep. Great late 50s' series about a scientifically thinking young man. Professor Bullfinch was from a nearby university. He encouraged Danny in his science pursuits. One title of the series sticks with me: DANNY DUNN AND THE ANTI-GRAVITY PAINT. The level of writing was beyone the Appleton books. Closer to main stream hard science fiction. I just hope kids today, some of `em, have similar resources available to them. Then again, I was the kind of kid who would travel to nearby towns to visit their libraries so my thoughts on the subject might be one-sided.
Don't blame the sign; blame the person who chose to set it to "X."
The R38's however have an LED display (like I said, similar to a bus sign) with two dials bearing the digits 0-9, which determine the message number the sign displays. I'm assuming the codes are simplistic in fashion (i.e. 01 for A, 02 for B, etc.).
However, I think that 4traintowoodlawn's statement, "One of the inconveniences of digital signs." refers to the sign's inability to display, "Not In Service."
Did they stop using drop-sash windows because of a safety hazard (ie. people putting their hands out the windows which may get caught by an object in the tunnel)?
Are any of you getting e-mails from an outfit called clickvolt.com?
I've been getting 10 or more a week, all from them, with varied pitches.
I think it's due to "bots" seaching the nycsubway.org talks for e-mail addresses.
I've pulled my e-mail addresses from my postings from here on.
I suspect it's one of the other places you hang out though, I went and rolled through 6 weeks of archived "trash" and not a one of the spams came through "clickvolt.com" ...
I do visit a local soccer bbs, but it's (and Adam's) use a BBS software called YABB, where your actual e-mail is part of your profile and is not accessable by BOTS.
My spam catcher is recommended by Consumer Reports and is very good, but it's for the "nuts & bolts' crowd. All the spam winds up in a special folder either by the spam catcher or manual move, but to have the spam catcher learn takes a 246 line command that reqires that the syntax be 100 perfect.
Needless to say, that dealer wants to take legal action against clickvolt.com, but guess what? It isn't even in North America.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
: )
Mark
I laugh upon the shirts, ties, googles, and polyester smoking jackets with a MTA pacman in blue on shiny metal for ANYONE who doesn't already know that Shrub's serving up bread and circuses, Dick Cheney as Bozo, and flaming Stradavarius' out there ... while this wonderful gubbamint is claiming to provide an economy, schools, and JOBS for IRAQ, we can bend over and pick up the damned soap. :(
And the SPAMMERS (who have PROVEN their criminality like, HOW many times?) continue to roam free, JUST like Ken Lay of ENRON and his other CRAWFORD, TX bubbas ... uh-huh ... must be *ME* ... Spammers roam free, while YOUR freedoms are torched ... yeah, THAT'S "law and odor, Shrub style." Ought be a law ... but THEY'S "nukular ontapanoorish." :(
The only thing I can advise is do like they do in the Usenet newsgroups and substitute extra text into your email address—that way, the nosy bots will be deflected if they try to send you spoofed spam from a fake email address, e.g. irishchieftain@NOSPAMjuno.com. People who wish to send you email can click on the link and remove the “NOSPAM” tag. Still works AFAIK—no spammers have been able to automate around it…
Windows media:
http://mm.subway.com.ru/mod4.wmv
(14.4 MB)
http://mm.subway.com.ru/mod7.wmv
(4.22 MB)
http://mm.subway.com.ru/dd.wmv
(928 KB)
Mpeg:
http://mm.subway.com.ru/mod4b.mpg
(4.22 MB)
-Larry
That was a dangerous manuver, those trains were half a car length apart!
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=489716
What use would they be? The iron maidens only accepted tokens, but tokens aren't accepted on the subway anymore.
There are still some old HXT's (exit-only gates), and I see no reason that they'll vanish soon, since the new ones function no differently.
I usually call them Iron Maidens.
I thought the exact same thing until 2 weeks ago when the ones at BPB were replaced with HXTs. The old HXTs are going, reason, lowered maintenance costs (stainless doesn't need to be painted).
Peace,
ANDEE
For a list of station agent's booth to be closed, see
http://mta.info/mta/news/public/proposal-booths.htm
0
Perhaps you are thinking of the exit devices, but those were different.
I remember the old Iron Maidens...
They were like a tall metal turnstyle having four quadrants, two opposing quadrants were blanked off with steel sheets so that nobody would be tempted to enter that quadrant and become trapped until the next fare paying customer pushed them the rest of the way through.
The compartments of the Iron Maidens were very small so that two people could not possibly squeeze in.
The metal guards bent away from you, so that you would have room to move your feet as you walked through them.
And, they of course are NOT the new tech gollywogs that could accept a Metrocard, so even if there were any still extant (ad there are not) they would be rather useless since you do not even have the token required to operate them.
Elias
www.ironmaiden.com
The token only black monsters were called HETs or High Entry Turnstiles. These are (or soon to be, was) the Iron Maidens.
The exit only slicers are called HXTs or High eXit Turnstiles.
The other type of egg slicers (the ones that MetroCard and single rides are accepted) are called HEETs or High Entry Exit Turnstiles.
At some stations there is a silver box near the service gate inside and outside. That is called the Autogate and works with an AFAS Metrocard. (ADA Fare Access System.) It works only if you are disabled and have the AFAS MetroCard. When the person dips the card, inside or outside, the gate opens and they enter. I myself tried it with my regular Metrocard, but it doesn't work so the reader recognizes the type of card it will only accept.
Are you sure that they are not called, HighEGGSit turnstiles?? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
They were from Walt Disney World.
They are wider, longer (six cars vs. five), WDW's have separate doors for each bunch of seats, DL's have only two doors per side.
The ones from WDW were actually built by Bombardier. The ones from Disneyland were built at Disney Studios in 1969 -- and around 1985-6 received new bodies made by Ride-N-Show of San Dimas, CA. They are slated to ve completely replaced in the next couple years.
Didn't Amtrak service to Las Vegas end several years ago?
Mark
I'd be willing to BET though that had it not been for this legal obstruction, Amtrak could have turned around to the casinos and said, "if YOU paid for the extras, we'd be willing to provide them so long as expenses were covered." Alas, they COULDN'T ... and I'd bet, were it NOT for this restriction, the Casinos might have also added "comps" to the trains in exchange for slots in the passageways, activated ONLY within the state of Nevada. They would never have HAD to go to the airlines.
They could have arranged for "Casino cars" since the trip takes longer than a flight, and had the advantage of a captive audience in transit, with far greater luxuries than in an aluminum tube ... maybe a baccarat car, a KENO car, whatever ... what I *can't* fathom is why the NYS Lottery hasn't used the roll signs and announcement LED's to sell "Subway Lotto" or "GOH KENO" or some such ... but then again, government has NEVER gotten the clue of raising funds through services, cross-promotions and other sources of income. Yet, the POLITICIANS can milk every teat they find, EVEN on bulls! :)
As BIZARRE as what I suggest may sound, it'd be a WINNER if ONLY such "leases" could be arranged. Currently under law, Amtrak CANNOT legally provide "party cars" as the MTA once did, carrying on an NYCTA tradition of "if you've got the CASH, we've got the party car" ... in the stupidity of POORLY CRAFTED "Ethics Laws," the state has SCROOD itself. Ethics SHOULD apply to the elected, those who MAKE the sausage ... if an agency can make money on the side without hraming its constituents, why DENY an agency the ability to "compete?" If the private sector TRULY provide a better dea, then the "government enterprise" would wither away and die inthe face of "competition" based on our recurring rumor that "government CANNOT do it cheaper than Wal*Mart" ... Let's see! :)
If Southwest can do a better and cheaper job with more "customer satisfaction" than AMTRAK, then killing the train was justified ... if not though, might just be that Amtrak was never seated at the table. :(
I go up to Cajon Pass all the time -- and there is NEVER a lack of action up there. In fact, BNSF is adding a THIRD track in certain sections due to the traffic jams caused by the slow freights; they want to be able to run MORE slow freights!!
And as long as BNSF and UPRR own the tracks, they could give a rat's rectum about a passenger train coming through. They already detest having to allow the "Southwest Chief", Amtrak trains 3/4, to operate and cause dispatching problems for their freights.
Yup, I enjoyed every minute of that drive. Actually, as much as I DO like riding trains, you can't "railfan" a line well from the train. You can take the scenery of these lines so much better in a car, and "chasing" the trains. As I mentioned I drove from LA to LV this past winter. It was a great ride, and got to take in the UP line along I15. I saw probably about 5 trains within 20 minutes. All the engineers were very friendly, and waved, and scared the hell out of me when they blasted their horns as they went by, some of my photos came out blurry because of that! Unfortunately, this trip was just before I got my digital camera, but here are some slidescans (some didn't scan well) of that day.
If Amtrak would have had a train between the two cities, I may not have had the fun of the drive that day:
Out here, we get friendly waves and horn toots.....
What I'm saying is the Casinos can buttonhole politicos, get the airports built with YOUR tax money, then turn around and "comp" the airlines, just like they do with the Atlantic City bus companies. AMTRACK, on the other hand, is PROHIBITED from making "sweetheart deals" where the Casinos would have paid them to run the trains as private industry does all the time (with deductions) ... damned shame. One of the things that DISGUSTED me when I worked for the state was the financial shell games the politicos did with the money for the agencies I worked in, that had that money been available, could have made for investments that would have severely added to the state till without any taint. Won't go into it here, but like the THRUWAY Authority, the Cable Commission that I used to work for MADE money - it was a REVENUE producer ... got killed anyway. But the story's way off topic for here and I ain't got time to explain in email for a while (too busy here or I'd be in bed by now), but there was no good reason for Amtrak to have had to give up the route ...
Once inside Nevada's state lines, they could have even fired off the one-armed bandits since you can't take a LEAK in Lost Wages without a slot machine with a handle on it to flush the damned toity ...
Bottom line though, the airlines have a legal advantage that the trains do not. Were Amtrak in private hands HERE for the shakedowns, backroom deals, out and out BRIBERY (fully deductable) then there probably WOULD be trains ... alas, only the POLITICIANS can collect the largesse. With all these stupid, out of control "ethics laws," isn't it curious that the politicians made themselves EXEMPT from any of them? When was the last time you EVER heard of a politician anywhere leaving MORE money in the treasury than they extracted? Some agencies COULD, if unshackled, do FAR more public good in being able to make deals such as the airlines made, with the proceeds ethically reaped, and FED into the public treasury as either outright PROFIT, or at least a major reduction in an agency's "allocation" ...
Ain't gonna happen. :(
A few years back, several casinos got together and subsidized National Airlines, a low-cost carrier that flew to LAS from major airports around the country. I believe Harrah's casino took the lead in organizing the deal. National never was able to compete successfully with Southwest and America West, both of which have a large number of reasonably priced flights to LAS. The casinos stopped their subsidies, and National limped along for a while before finally going out of business several months ago.
I think the monorail is going to turn into a tourist attraction rather than a viable alternative to taxis. Even assuming an extension is eventually built to the airport, no one is going to walk 1/2 to 3/4 mile with luggage and cross Las Vegas Blvd. just to save a few dollars when they can grab a cab and go door to door. People don't come to La$ Vega$ to save money!
There are two two-car trains. Three could be operated if they switched trackss south, instead of north, of Prospect Park.
Other people have answered the one track vs. two track question…what I find somewhat depressing-looking is when I look(ed) out over the northern edge of the station at Franklin and Fulton and see the skeleton of the former turnoff onto the old Fulton Street El, something I was born too late to have seen in action…kinda comparable to looking at the south end of the dead Myrtle Street El south of Broadway & Myrtle…
-Stef
Here ya go Harry, I found it for you (well, I only scanned the pertinent information):
SelkirkTMO
*
10/06/2003
21:23:53
Subject: RE: R33 3D model
IP: Logged
Message:
NICE stuff! Sure would like to see the rest of it when it's ready. :)
Seems like it's more of a routing problem or peering between some internet providers and others being cut. Site's QUITE reachable from Verizon ...
My DNS server might be updated and get the new number a day or more before yours gets corrected.
So it happens that some people can get into the new site, and others will be blocked out at the old one.
Elias
This puzzles me because 55 years ago four different lines served the station. The 14th St Line (today's L), the Fulton St Line & the Fulton-Lex Line all stopped there, and all Broadway Brooklyn Locals terminated there. There always seemed to be people on the platform waiting for their particular train.
Have things changed that much? IIRC, the station was also the closest stop to Lutheran Hospital in those days. I do realize that three of the four trains no longer exist.
I had by accident said it's the lowest in the system, but I meant Brooklyn (sorry). Here are the least used stations in the system starting with Atlantic.
417 - Atlantic (L)
418 - East 143rd-St Mary's (6)
419 - Beach 36th - Rockaway
420 - Beach 98th
421 - Beach 44th
422 - Broad Channel
423 - Beach 105th
424 - Aqueduct
It's still pretty pathetic though for Atlantic to have come to this.
I have used that station hundreds of times to transfer between the "A" and "S" (between the "A" and "CC" back in the day) and have never stepped foot outside that station.
I'm sure that most of you on subtalk have the same experience.
I guess with OTB, advance technology and just plain change of interest caused patronage to Aqueduct to drop to just a sprinkle.
I had the booth at Yankee Stadium on the D line the week of Halloween in 2000. If the Mets hadn't lost to the Yankees in 6, I would have been there for game 7 of the World Series. When baseball season is over, the station is NOT quiet. 161 Street up there is a major shopping area and is far from dead.
125th St.
145th St.
Tremont Ave.
205th St.
Bedford Park Blvd.
168th St. Wash Hts.
DeKalb Ave.
B. 44 and B. 36 were certainly used more often in the summer prior to 1970. B. 98 and B. 105 had their better days end a few years before that.
413 Bushwick-Aberdeen (L)
414 Aqueduct-North Conduit Ave
415 21st St (G)
416 Bowery
417 Atlantic Ave (L)...
...
424 Aqueduct Raceway
Any idea on when the cutover to the new alignment is supposed to take place? I'd heard sometime this year, but nothing more specific than that.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.42 Now Available!
I don't know if they are far enough along that it could take place by the end of the year yet. We only have about two months to go. Maybe in 2004? I haven't been there in a few weeks, anyone know how the progress looks?
Incidently, I kept responding in the spring of2001 to all those whining newspaper articles about Chinese residents of southern Brooklyn decrying the loss of direct access to Grand Street, that these people would simply adjust to the new service pattern and ride to Canal St. I was 100% right. Now I make another bold prediction. Despite not losing service to Canal Street via the bridge, there will be whining about the loss of direct West End service to Canal Street when the 2004 plan gets close to implimentation. Just watch.
Aqueduct Racetrack
It may not be there now, but it was sure there then.
"What has changed" in the last fifty-five years is that Brownsville went from a viable, working and middle-class neighborhood to being the near-center of one of the worst poverty belts in the city, with the post-WW II white working class and middle class exodus to the suburbs, slumlord arson, crime, drugs, etc. among the causes.
My neighbor has a Hagstrom Atlas, vintage 2001, which I just borrowed. It shows a hospital at that location, and it is called Lutheran Hospital of Brooklyn.
Is it possible that Hagstrom is that far behind in updating their maps?
According to google, the hospital's website is at www.lmcmc.com
I was looking for Lutheran Hospital of Brooklyn, which used to be located at East New York Ave and Junius St.
I don't think they're too thrilled with visiting JFK either. The airport layout depicted on even their newer maps isn't even close to what's really there.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.42 Now Available!
Really, they don't want to do we.
They will allow us to capture the good map ness of Hagstrom's, we hope.
I wonder if Lafayette Avenue in Brooklyn is really as wide as the map indicates (at least as wide as Myrtle), or are they simply using old maps with the els removed.
No. Brooklyn's Lexington Avenue is no wider, or not much wider, than parallel avenues. Hagstrom's drew it wider because it used to depict the Lexington Avenue el, and never got around to redrawing it after the el was torn down.
Brooklyn's 5th Avenue and Grand Avenue are also depicted unusually wide on Hagstrom's because of old els.
It's a moot question now, anyway; Hagstrom's introduced a CAD version of the 5 Boro last year. I've kept a pristine version of their final edition using the hand-drawn map, some of which first appeared in the 1916 original.
www.forgotten-ny.com
There's another series of maps, by, I think, Geographia, that is outstanding (from a railfan/mapfan p.o.v.) in how it has left many now gone train stations on the maps they sell. Not as precise as Hagstrom, true. But at least they haven't gone the dreaded CAD map style. I dislike those maps. Maybe I'll get used to them in time. Not yet though.
Speaking of hospitals....the old Interboro Hospital on Linden Blvd. is rotting away. It is on the corner opposite Pitkin Yard. Looked more like a nursing home.
--Mark
It's all done now. I was at East New York station about 3 weeks ago, and that old industrial building now has tenants.
- Why was there no Lefferts-Pitkin/Broadway Brooklyn service?
- Why was there no Canarsie/Broadway/Lexington Ave el service?
Associated Press
Monday, October 6, 2003; 2:32 PM A fire that gutted eight historic trolleys and their car barn was ruled accidental Monday, with investigators believing it started in one of the trolleys.
"The fire appears to be accidental, more than likely caused by a malfunction or mechanical problem with one of the trolleys," said Pete Piringer, spokesman for the Montgomery County Fire and Rescue Service.
"The exact cause is probably going to be undetermined forever, because a lot of the evidence and materials were consumed in the fire," Piringer said. Arson, lightning and electrical problems with the building were ruled out earlier.
Firefighters were called to the museum in the early hours of Sept. 28, but investigators believe the fire had burned for a while before it was noticed. Piringer said by the time anyone realized there was a fire, it was already in the advanced stages.
Among the eight trolley cars were four that used to traverse the streets of the Washington area. One dated back to 1899. A 1935 trolley was a one-of-a-kind experimental model.
Damage is estimated at about $10 million.
Reprinted from the Washington Post.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
If only that were true. In fact, because some of the lost cars were irreplaceable, it's basically meaningless to speak of a dollar figure.
Frank Hicks
And it goes to REINFORCE the absolute rule - trolley poles down, house breaker OFF before leaving the property .. and ANOTHER carbarn walk to be SURE ... "I signed out and locked up, and I ran down this CHECKLIST of 'this was done, no poles raised, no power on, etc. etc" ...
I don't like to tangle with Ray Crapo, because he and I tangled over politics and therefore my OWN opinions and continuing disagreement with HIS would have taken on an unfair color ... but meseums have RULES, and now that ARSON has been ruled out (I didn't want to comment until extenuating circumstances had been disposed of) it looks like either it was a spontaneous combustion of "maintenance chemicals" or someone locked the carbarn without doing a CHECKLIST to ensure that all poles were down, breakers off and any combustibles had been locked up and extinguished.
After all, even if the protos ran carbide lamps, gaslight, whatever, it's beginning to look like someone screwd up - and no piping, construction type or other factor would mitigate "someone left the lights on and that's why it happened" ... so despite Ray's advice, I'd offer, make sure that anyone who "closes up" has a checklist of things that MUST be for safety, and require checkmarks that they did so. It'd be PROTOTYPICAL "Transit Authority" as well as most "contract one" railroads. :)
I have to admit though, I enjoyed the speculations in this thread ... as a museum member myself who does not feel sufficiently worthy to comment on operations, while I wasn't PERSONALLY responsible for the last time at Branford, I feel TERRIBLY guilty over forgetting to offer my time to do car cleaning on 6688 after muddy subtalkers tracked up the floor (pride in the fleet may not exist among the ruling class at the TA, but it sure DOES matter to the Branford folk) and I wasn't considerate enough to do it MYSELF ... and I also learned that night that a couple of car poles had been left up in FINAL INSPECTIONS, and I had forgotten to offer to empty the arnine tank when it was laid up ... for that my most extreme EMBARASSMENT for having forgotten those necessities in the FIRST place with my brain having been running on empty in the morning, and by night, WHAT brain? I didn't SEE no brain. :)
But yeah, looks like the solution to THIS problem is having two people at shutdown to check each other, check off a checklist that the juice is down and no flammables remain behind, and chances are good that the "industry" won't suffer a repeat of this horrible reality because JUICE is DOWN and thus, you CAN'T have a fire ... only goes to show that it doesn't MATTER what kind of "building" you have, if this was an accident, it was almost GUARANTEEED to have been "electical" in cause ... drop the breaker, Say good night Gracie ... :(
Chuck Greene
National Capital has the same 600 volt rules that BSM has. All 600 volt power is turned off after operations. BSM goes 1 step further - each track in the carhouse is further isolated by knife switches in a locked box. National Capital did not. In fact, the trolley was tensioned by poles in the rear of the carhouse that burned. The tension was lost as the trolley wire (000 gauge, hard drawn bronze) melted in the extreme heat.
Conflicting reports....was the trolley power on or off?
It's getting harder and harder to get hardware for 000 wire. We are condsidering going down to 00 for all new constuction and any major replacement.
BTW, has anybody else noticed that the price for wire frogs is escalating out of site? We are exploring making them ourselves. We've made our own 4 inch trolley wheels for our older cars. 5 inch (PCC wheels) can't be used and the suppliers no longer make 4 inch spoked trolley wheels.
90% of the cost of trolley wheels is the machining. If you have an equipped machine shop and volunteers who love that work, the metal is only a minor part of the cost. We had a bunch of blanks cast, and the Shop machines them when we need a wheel.
000 stuff is very hard to come by. At Branford we have some
of that around in the darndest places in the overhead. Not
sure where we originally got it from. Much of the mainline is
4/0, but then again we run heavy cars AND our line is bit longer
than BSM AND we don't have feeders!
Art is a frequent face at BSM, which is where the joint project came up. Paul Ritterhoff is our resident pattern man and has made patterns for brake shoes, trolley wheels and a lot of other things streetcar and Baltimore and I believe he's already started in the task. We have discussed having the castings made in bronze, Unless we or PRMA can find a foundry that will do cast tron at a non-killer price.
BSM will do the machining, as we are already set up to do it.
I doubt the power was left on. You would have to be deaf to lock the power room at the end of the day and not hear the hum of the rectifier.
Michael
Washington, DC
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Either way, eight irreplacable cars are gone for good. Very sad indeed.
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
To terminate at Brighton Beach, a train has to use the Express tracks in the station. Why therefore can't a single track Shuttle run from Brighton Beach to W8th?
That's an understatement. I haven't seen Ocean Parkway, but West 8 is getting a massive rebuild.
Nothing left for a shuttle.
--Mark
- Lyle Goldman
Brooklyn, NY
I can't believe this guy thought his idea would work. And the best part is that DID work! 250 books per month isn't much considering that the Metro sees 2 million riders per day, but six vending machines selling that kind of bulky merchandise at that rate is pretty good.
I suppose the idea wouldn't be too bad if some were selectively placed in major stations (Times Square, Grand Central, Union Square) in high-traffic areas.
Some machines dispensed packs of gum. You'd put your coin into the slot for the flavor you wanted and then spin a dial to get your product. Again the coin could jam, the machine be empty or broken.
I think the machines were done away with because of the above as well as the obstruction to the flow of traffic it caused. Also gave a hiding place for a crime perpertrator.
Based on the above experiences as well as others that other Sub-talkers can relate, I'd rather not see them back. Also would cut into the business of the stores and kiosks that are in the subway.
IIRC, it mighta had a snitch to do with the fact that TA wanted to encourage
public ridership to take the (new?) EXPRESS service.... and not to mention
encourage riding a new (then faster?) redbird trains...
Robert
Robert
Robert
Robert
The train for which you're waiting, when it never arrives.
Douce: From Woodhaven its 1.5 Miles to Dunton Tower, and from what I've heard theyve sealed shut the entrances at street level at woodhaven, so its a good thing you didnt walk the tunnel, as even if you got safely out I'm sure someone at Morris Park would of noticed you.
I have ridden between Jamaica and ENY so many times, and everytime I looked for Woodhaven, I missed it. It is very hard to catch as the trains go SO fast through there. The last time I went through, I did catch a very slight glimpse of it. I saw a tiled "archway". If I blinked though, I would have even missed that.
Incidentally, from signs at the Bowery and Essex, it appears as though NB J/M/Z trains will soon start using the middle track through Essex, not stopping -- for rehab related platform work, I suppose. If you have to transfer from the NB J/M/Z to the F, good luck! It's a long ride over the bridge, there's no free crossunder at Marcy, and J's and Z's bypass Hewes on weekdays. Hopefully the S/A at the Bowery will be distributing GO transfers so passengers can get off there and walk to Essex for the F -- or perhaps the turnstiles at Essex/Delancey will be reprogrammed to permit free transfers.
They should, at the least, issue block ticket transfers to the Grand Street Shuttle from Bowery. This is one time where a K type service would be quite useful.
A K-type service couldn't run, since the connection only feeds into the NB side track, which will apparently be closed.
(Or I may be misinterpreting the signs I saw. They were directed to train crews, not passengers.)
This sure is a nasty way of boosting the ridership at Manhattan's most desolate station.
Next month it'll be No K, but no-one will notice. The month after that it will be No L ;-)
Give that link a shot.
Let's say they address of your image is:
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/logo/subtalk_top.jpg
Then, all you do is type this code:
<img src="http://www.nycsubway.org/img/logo/subtalk_top.jpg">
Typing that will get you this:
I hope this helps,
Mark
The first thing is you have to have a place on the internet to put the photos. You cannot put them on the Subtalk server.
Many of the free webhosts will not allow you to post pictures and refrence them from another place such as Subtalk.
Once you have a place to put your photos, you must reference them in your post using HTML commands (tags that tell the receiving browser to go and get the photos from the third party server.)
If you do it right, it should look like this beautiful R9 at Branford:
If you do not do it correctly, then Callista will come and eat you for breakfast.
(If you want to see the codes, view the source)
I am running my own server.
: )- Elias
So 2004 B line will end up uses R40M R42 R38, or R32
As for my opinion, on a scale of 1 to 5 I'd say the chances are...
R32: 1
R38: 0.5
R40: 3
R40M: 4
R42: 2
R44: 0
R46: 0.5
R68: 4
R68A: 5
R131: 0
R143: 0
R160: ?
til next time
- Concourse only services R68's
- Many of the "slants" are used on weekends anyway, in Brighton local, West End and Sea Beach shuttle service.
There are 2 schools of thought here. One says that the B and D will be entirely R68, making maintenance issues moot. Some of the slants can still be sent to the part time W. Another is that the entire B fleet will be based out of CI and the entire D fleet in Concourse, allowing anything CI uses to run on the B. This could get confusing as cars become intermixed.
I've always advocated the first option:
B/D 100% R68
Q 100% R68A
N Remaining R68/68A's, R40M's and R40 slants
W Slant R40's.
Well soon find out. February is fast approaching.
The Brighton express -- now the B -- will keep its R-40's. With its newly lengthened route, it will use most if not all of them.
The D will use the entire Concourse fleet of R-68's. (R-40's on the B will be stored at Concourse but won't be maintained there.)
The Q won't change a peep. R-68's from CI, perhaps with the occasional R-68A tossed in.
The N will run R-68A's, and whatever R-40's are left over, if any. The W will be treated as a branch of the N, sharing its equipment. (Perhaps it'll tend to get the R-40's; perhaps not.)
That covers the major changes. One minor change is a possible slight increase in R service -- but that can easily be offset, within Jamaica, by a slight decrease in F service. With 6th Avenue service available on either side of the Culver via the Brighton B and West End D, Culver demand will be a wee bit lower than it is now.
Those are just my guesses. As I said, we'll see what happens. This is heretical, but I wouldn't mind R-68(A)'s on the B. If I keep my current job, I'll be taking the B to work, and since it's a long ride, I do work on the train. The R-68(A)'s, if they're not crowded, have nice makeshift desks. The R-40's don't, and they shake like crazy. (I missed my usual local this morning and ended up on the express behind it, and my lecture notes are illegible.)
That's certainly possible, but no more likely than what I proposed. I believe the "rest the R40's on the weekends" reasoning is flawed, since most R40's now run on weekends anyway.
There are 5 sets of R40M's still at ENY. Expect them and the CI overhauled R42's to be x-ferred soon.
The Q Diamond will be eliminated. It's R-40/M's will go to the W. The W's R-68/A's will go to the extended B/D. BUT...The new W is shorter and requires less trainsets than the current Q diamond, so there will be leftover R40/M's. The new N will also require less trainsets, so there goes the 1-2 R68 sets it had. This means there will be R40/M's left over, which will end up on the B, D, or Q - most likely the Q.
Don't forget, headways will be increased on all lines going thru Dekalb Ave when both sets of bridge tracks are open. I believe the B/D could use every 4-car R68 set available. There are 390 (including 1 R42) R40 cars of both types. The "new" W alone will probably need 160-200 of them.
Can Concourse shop all non-Franklin shuttle R68's? That's 416 cars, if I did my math correctly.
NOOO!!
R68A/68 will be assign to Q and D and some to N.
R40s and R40M will be 50/50 in W, and few to N
R40s and maybe few R68 set will to go B
There rumors say that N may possibly again use R32, depend how much slants is shortend and used by the B W. I doubt that may not be happen unless there 's remaining R68A from the W applies to N
If that happen, E may have give up few of its R32 to N and retrieve R46 from the F or R
Fred, you express yourself with the eloquence of a poet!
B/D 100% R68
Q 100% R68A
W 100% R40
N Remaining R68A/R40
If you're using the "rest the slants on the weekend" reason to have the slants on the B, think again. Most of the slants already run on the weekends, on the circle Q/W/N.
Hey, if they done that to orange Q, then it possible that they could again done to B
It all has something to do with politics. I think someone posted something about this last week. Some politicians were upset Queens wasn't getting new trains.
It's all just a rumor at this point.
That's a The Taking of Pelham 123 quote...
Warren: They're on their way over now. But it's no use going to them, Al. You're the man in charge. The buck stops with you.
Mayor: Oh, shit!
Warren: God help us!
Mayor: Shit! Piss! Fuck!!
That actor who portrayed the mayor looked a lot like Ed Koch ! Wasn't Abe Beame mayor at the time of the filming Pelham 1-2-3 ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes he was, hence the irony.
Peace,
ANDEE
My buddy's going to do some digging when he gets to work, but apparently there has been a power play and this is indeed one of the things they want ... "we got stuck with those awful redbirds and now you're sending us MORE hand-me-downs" was the supposed hue and cry a couple of months ago prior to the legislative vacation. As I'd expected, the game is being played once again in Smallbany, and NOT in the city ...
Will let you know if there's anything else other than a buddy who works at the Capitol who just lurks here but never applied for an account who remembers hearing that and just shaking his head. While we may *have* a budget, the spending works never really got carried out, so this little side battle sorta faded away in his memory as well until I asked about this ... I got that "Oh YEAH ... I heard something about this back at the start of the summer" ...
But if they know about it at the capitol, then this very likely IS real ... and might explain the 6 express cutbacks as well ... but that's just my own guess there ...
My bet? Based upon what I heard is there WILL be 142's out in Queens. Whatever happens of course as to how MANY of them is entirely up to whatever stops the POLITICOS from whining. What I cannot FATHOM is that the people we ANOINT to office are SUPPOSED to be OUR servants, not the other way around.
In AMERICA, our leaders aren't SUPPOSED to be ROYALTY with SPECIAL PRIVILEGES ... INSTEAD, they are supposed to be OUR representatives, DUTY SWORN to be *US* ... too many folks, especially in office forget, they are *OUR* servants, and we are *NOT* theirs. Seems to get lost with the (R)oyal party in control of it all. :(
Despite what's good for EVERYBODY, these Bozos get their wish if they give up something ELSE, probably of FAR greater importance ... political reality: "GO along to GET along" (for AOL'ers, "You scratch mine, I'll scratch yours" or "I'm from the gubbamint, I promise I won't put the check in your mouth.") ... sorry, I been apolitical for QUITE some time now out of penance, but it's *REALLY* getting out of hand ... there was a revolution while we were ignoring Sideshow Bob, and while we weren't looking, we got SCROOD. Oh yeah, watch this FLASHY THING ... Ahnold groped an R-32 ... geez. :(
--Mark
Incorrect automated announcements, misplaced lumbar support on the seats, and illegible digital signage.
They did not make a good decision there.
I rode similar cars on the Boston T Red Line built by Bombardier. There was no question that they were much better for everybody (disabled or not) than the Pullman-Standard cars they were replacing.
--Mark
The 7 has not gotten any new cars since 1964. It's about time.
I see that some riders on other IRT lines are upset that they might lose some of their new cars to the 7. Get over it. You guys had the R-62 and/or R-62A when they were new. The 7 hasn't had anything new in nearly 40 years. Time to spread the wealth a little.
Believe me, I don't mind that the 4 is giving up some R-142A's. I'm no fan of the new cars. They're ugly, they're noisy, they're uncomfortable, they're not user-friendly, they're unpleasant, and they're even a bit unsafe. I much prefer the R-62A's. (You're welcome to disagree on any of these points -- I'm just presenting my own opinion.) I don't subscribe to the popular belief that old is bad and new is good. I'm hardly mourning that the East Side will have some R-62A's for the foreseeable future.
My objection to the transfer is that it's a waste of money. By the original plans, Corona would soon be an all-R-62A shop, and the maintenance workers would become experts in R-62A's and in nothing else. Now there will need to be R-62A experts and R-142A experts at Corona. That costs money -- money which could be better spent elsewhere.
My understanding -- please correct me if I'm wrong -- is that the subway is a transportation system. Our transportation dollars shouldn't be spent seeing to it that 7 passengers have new toys to play with. If they want toys, they can go to the toy store and spend their own money.
Corona can handle them as well as any of the other IRT shops except for east 180th St. which I believe was rebuilt for the new cars.
Me either. The Lexington line would have been pretty boring almost entirely new trains. Now that the redbirds are gone, the R62A's will bring some spice back to the East Side. At least the West Side still had them. I can't believe it has come to this, actually being happy to see R62/62A's!!! Luckily I have recently made my peace with them, because I'm still not a fan of their fatter cousins on the B division (R68).
Uhmm, the redbirds are gone. Would you rather have a sea of 100% R142/142A? How much more sterile can you get than that? The R62's have a bit of color, and yes they are probably the lesser of two evils. Either you like something about the IRT or you are just going to be one unhappy railfan. I'll take the little bit of "spice" they will bring to a sea of R142 on the IRT.
So there's your "quote" from a person who I call a "credible source," certainly more credible than Bob Novak, that ... well ... whore ... :)
Waaa, I want my World's Fair cars back! :)
But I wouldn't mind a set of R-142's on the 7.
From reading posts on here I was under the impression that Corona did not even have the facilities to maintain R-142/a cars. Does this mean that cars will be shuttled back and forth for servicing?
Also, don't forget that strip maps and announcements will have to be changed which will also cost money.
I don't know if it has to do with politics, I think it has to do with CBTC for the future. I think that the only rumor here is that [politics was involved. The 7 is the logical choice to have the new trains.
The transfer to Pelham is interesting though. Let's look at how this transpired. The new trains come in and go to Pelham; the Pelham trains go to the West Side, the west side's trains go to the Flushing line, now to comlete the circle the flusing trains (aka originally the west side's trains) are going to Pelham --- full circle.
It didn't dawn on me till I read your post, but how come they're not crying here -- "once again", they're getting HAND ME DOWNS FROM OTHER LINES. New trains or not, still hand me downs, no?
However as Corona Yard's barn isn't equipped to handle them yet, how does the TA expect to do more than routine maintainence? One set would be alright; every once in a while send it to another yard, but several sets are going to make that difficult.
Let the Flushingites eat cake if they want to cry about new cars. Soon enough you'll hear "The announcements are too long, and it makes my trip longer." just like every other line when the got them. And the C/Rs were able to do their thing before to get the doors closed, which they won't be able to do with Big Bag'o'circuits watching them.
With that new equipment on the line I can also see the RTO charges the supt deals with go sky high.
As others have pointed out, it may be more of an issue of CBTC evaluation and maintenance training.
The 7 hung on to its Redbirds longer than any other line. I can assure you that 99% of its riders couldn't care less about them and wished they had cars with better accommodations and better A/C. Don't mix up Subtalk (rail buffs) with the real world. Yet the R62's went to the Bronx and Brooklyn first. Why? Because of maintenance issues. It was simply easier to keep Corona Shop a one-car-type operation.
Except that it'll suck no longer having a true railfan window on the (7), but I guess we'll have to live. Looking out the front of an R-142A isn't that bad outside anyway. It's only impossible in a tunnel, which the (7) thankfully has very little of.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Only when it comes to someone else getting more Times coverage than he ;^)
I saw that "Raquel" lady on the <5> today.
They're not as bad as the people begging for money on the train with a story behind it, The people singing/playing an instrument, Or the people Preaching (they have expanded thier operations to buses now!).
Peace,
ANDEE
I shouild know myself, I used to be on a tear on the Concourse Line with the boxes on M&M's. I
They don't feed anybody. The guy with the bottle keeps some % of the money (half or whatever) then forks the rest over. It's a panhandling scheme, except that a UHO panhandler has a supervising pimp.
The UHO may be mostly a scam, but they've got some sort of understanding with the police that allows them to do their panhandling without interference in most circumstances. For years now they've had tables set up on the sidewalks near Penn Station entrances. I would suppose that panhandling on trains themselves is considered more intrusive and therefore less tolerated.
While we're on the topic, I also wonder what sort of arrangements which the Jews for Jesus have made. Periodically I see them handing out their leaflets within fare control of major subway stations. Penn Station-34th and Union Square appear to be favorites. They engage in this technically illegal action for long enough at a time that they must know that the police won't interfere.
That's not an understanding with the police. That's basic First Amendment rights.
"While we're on the topic, I also wonder what sort of arrangements which the Jews for Jesus have made. Periodically I see them handing out their leaflets within fare control of major subway stations. Penn Station-34th and Union Square appear to be favorites. They engage in this technically illegal action for long enough at a time that they must know that the police won't interfere."
If they're not asking for money, it's hard to make a case against them. Again, First Amendment.
It's not the First Amendment; it's NYCRR 1050.6(c)
:-)
--Z--
"And I'll dream of the things I'll do
with a subway token and a dollar tucked inside my shoe"
NY Songs
Anyone remember Johnny Carson doing this song? Complete with Rhinestones, and on a horse?
Token back to Brooklyn fell between the grate
We're just watching it sinking
The fare went up to one hundred dollars
And we can never go home again
Mark
- Johnny Carson
:-) Andrew
How about Joe Buck and Ratso Rizzo (Jon Voight, Dustin Hoffman)of "Midnight Cowboy" jumping turnstiles or using slugs from junction boxes ?
Even I tend to think that Monday Holidays are like a THIRD day of the weekend,
but when holiday evening comes, it's batten-down-the-hatches time
and get back into the weekly grind.... this brah forgot that part.
Cherry Wheat.
Michael
Washington, DC
The doughnuts didn't get there till 10 MINUTES LATER according to this note...
Actually, it was more of an EMS call, and the man was not obviously in danger of dying. So I would not expect the police to risk their necks driving with lights and siren to this call.
Now, if he had become violent and pulled a knife on someone, or stopped breathing, then you have a new ballgame.
In yesterday's incident, a transit supervisor was on the scene about ten minutes after I heard the "police assistance" call on the station PA. The cops followed in another five minutes or so.
Despite my frequent criticism of the NYPD, the two cops yesterday handled the situation pretty well, carrying the drunk off the train so service could resume. I had thought they would wait for EMS to arrive. What happened later probably was amusing, though I couldn't wait around to see. The drunk being completely unable to stand, let alone walk, the cops probably had to carry him out of the station so he could be transported to the drunk tank. Good thing he was such a pencil neck!
Peace,
ANDEE
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/07/international/europe/07LOND.html
The Straphanger¡¯s Campaign has written to the Port
Authority voicing similar concerns to those raised
here (MTR #430) over the planned $5 fare for the
JFK AirTrain. The letter states that the current fare
structure ¡ª $2 on the subway to Howard Beach and
a free shuttle bus ride to the airport ¡ª has attracted
¡°millions of low budget travelers and tourists...
from other, more polluting and congesting
modes of transport.¡± The free shuttle bus service
will be discontinued when AirTrain opens, and subway
riders who get off at Howard Beach will have
no choice but to pay $5 to get to airport terminals.
The Straphangers Campaign also questions how
the AirTrain operating budget is related to the $5
fare and asks what the current Howard Beach bus
service costs. The letter also points out that other
cities, such as Chicago, Boston, and Cleveland, have
cheaper airport transit options.
In response to our recent article on AirTrain fares,
the Port Authority contacted the Campaign to say
that the $5 fare on the JFK service should not be
categorized as ¡°high,¡± especially compared to options
to such as cabs and express buses, which cost
about $35 and $12, respectively. We argue that a $5
fare is high relative to city transit fares, especially
since it pays for only part of the airport trip. It
should be made more competitive with other options,
such as parking at the airport.
Newark¡¯s AirTrain ridership counts may provide
the Port Authority with some insight into how to
make it more competitive, or even reduce the fare.
Ridership on Newark¡¯s AirTrain is currently about
30,000 a day. About 3,500 riders come to the airport
via the rail link on NJ Transit or Amtrak. The remaining
riders either drive to the AirTrain and ride
for free, or are employees or others traveling from
one airport location to another. In other words, the
great majority of Newark Airport¡¯s AirTrain riders
drive to the airport, pay for parking, and ride the
AirTrain for free.
The agency has a similar fare structure planned for
JFK ¡ª those who drive to the airport will pay for
parking (about $10 at JFK¡¯s long term parking) and
ride the monorail for free. The Port Authority could
reduce the fare and increase ridership on AirTrain
by increasing parking rates or by making those who
drive pay separately for AirTrain.
For example, under the Port Authority proposed
JFK fare structure, two people traveling to JFK from
Midtown would pay $5 each if they drive, $18 each
if they take a cab, $12 each in an express bus, $11
each if they take LIRR and AirTrain, or $7 each if
they take the subway to AirTrain. An increase in
parking fees or eliminating the park and ride for free
option could make AirTrain more competitive.
MTA¡¯s proposed City Ticket ¡ª which would
offer the discounted rate of $2.50 for travel within
the city¡¯s limits on LIRR and Metro-North commuter
rail lines ¡ª could ease the Airtrain fare
burden somewhat, though not for those using connecting
subways. According to the MTA press office,
a City Ticket pilot program will likely begin in
January 2004 (just 2 months after the JFK AirTrain
is scheduled to open), running for a six month trial.
Then the MTA will decide whether or not to continue
the program. The option would reduce the fare
price from Penn Station NY to JFK significantly,
from $10-$12 to $7.50.
The free shuttle is the problem. They no longer want to subsidize this bus and want you to pay the $5.00 dollars. I can assure you the Airtrain will not make any more money than the free bus service but will probably cost more to operate which is why they are raising the fare to 5 dollars. It just goes to show you when it comes to public transport, expensive alternatives usually replace inexpensive alternatives over time.
The bottom line is this: There's no substitute for actual experience. Let the PA start running AirTrain at the proposed fares and see what happens. A price tag is easy to change. If the trains run empty because people think it's too expensive, the PA will lower the price. If they're jam-packed, then the price is obviously not too low. If it's somewhere in between, then it may take some time to find out what an optimal price should be.
Makes sense, though I have two comments:
(1) Low ridership on AirTrain, should that happen, may be caused by the depressed state of air travel rather than the $5 fare. Further investigation would be needed before anyone could conclude that the fare's too high.
(2) Assuming that the PA indeed decides that $5 is too much, its bureaucratic culture may make it difficult to reduce the fare. Reducing the fare would be tantamount to concluding that some PA higher-ups made the wrong decision. That's not an easy conclusion to acknowledge in a bureaucracy.
We'll just have to wait and see what happens. Opening day is probably not much more than a month off.
--Z--
One city, one fare is a NYCT concept. The Port Authority is different.
use metrocard
board subway 2.00
swipe metrocard at jamaica or howard beach airtrain 3.00
total fare 5.00
reverse transfer no charge free transfer to subway.
Q11= $1.50
transfer
AirTrain= Transfer + $3.50 Step Up Fare
my fix
with metrocard
2.00 on subway (jamaica or howard beach)or Q11 (howard beach) then swipe for airtrain would be 3.00 + total 5.00
Stand alone airtrain fare 5.00
Comment 1. Don't forget the European budget-backpackers, many of whom have already discovered the E/F-to-Q10 connection at Union Turnpike. The rest of them will soon discover the "other A train" connection to the Q10 at Lefferts Blvd as a cheap alternative to the AirTrain.
Comment 2. Yes, many KG residents are connected to the aviation industry - hence the nickname "Crew Gardens" - but I'm not, nor are most of my neighbors. Some of us were just priced out of Forest Hills.
It is always good to have alternatives, and a transit bus serving different subway terminals is a good thing. Different market than AirTrain.
Why do subway commuters park at Howard Beach? Do they take their cars on the subway?
The Howard Beach Long-Term Parking Lot has become a moderately popular park-and-ride spot, particularly among residents of southeast Queens and the south shore of Nassau County. Just hop off the Belt Parkway, park your car, and hop on the train. IIRC, the current parking fee is only $2 for up to 12 hours, making it an affordable alternative to searching for a spot on the street.
I can understand your complaint. Perhaps the answer is for the MTA to purchase a portion of that lot to use as Subway "Park'N'Ride." Cars left there for more than two days would be ticketed and towed to discourage their use as airport parking and to separate them from PA-run airport parking.
Another approach is to have MTA open its own lot outside of airport property.
By how much?
Train to Montauk
Train to Greenpoint
Train to Island Park/ Long Beach
Now the Train to Montauk, there is a good amount of service to and from the city, the problem is the expense and schedule for example, the date I have for this trip is: November 1st, 2003
The first train leaves at 7:49 AM and arrives at Montauk at 10:53 with a Transfer at Babylon
The next train leaves at 11:00 AM and arrives at Montauk at 2:28 PM with a transfer made at Jamaica
Off Peak it is $26.00 round trip
The Train leaves Montauk at 2:51 PM and arrives at Penn Station at 6:20 PM with a Transfer at Jamaica or you can wait around until the 10:38 train which wont get us back into the city until 1 or 2 in the morning. That is a risk that you have to be willing to take. This is both for the ride and for the pictures. That is your choice.
Greenpoint has even less service so going to Orient Point would be a challenge, if anything, we would take a Suffolk bus to Ronkonkoma to get a better chance of cataching trains.
Long Beach is an easy trip with Frequent Service so I wouldn't see any problems there.
That as a long time ago, and the schedules were a lot more agreeable then. And the RR encouraged bikes. In fact I recall they even ran "bike trains" using baggage cars to hold the bikes.
I was doing something like this over the past several weeks. I would take my folding bicycle on the train to the first car (bicycle folded)and stand by the front door right next to the motorman. I would ride the train to the last stop in the Bronx and then ride my bicycle right back into Manhattan. It was an eye-opener first class.
I haven't been to the Bronx in YEARS and taking the train to the last stop of the 4 gave me a new appreciation of the subway system. Believe it not, it took about half an hour to bicycle from the last stop of the 4 in the Bronx to 125th street in Manhattan. I did the same thing with the 6 and 9 and fully intend to do the entire subway line including Staten Island.
I can't wait to explore using MetroNorth!
The wheelchair area on the C-3s is superb for bikes. Fitting it into the M-1s out of Ronkonkoma was a pain, though.
The LIRR has not run bike trains since the 1890's and Hal Fullerton. American Youth Hostels chartered LIRR trains more recently (1950's to the late 1970's), with Homer Tomlinson as the LIRR's sales agent. There used to be two "Bike Trains" each year. The bike trains originally started at Penn Sta (later cut back to Hunters Pt after the state took the LIRR off the PRR's hands) with stops at Jamaica, Mineola and Hicksville. The spring train featured a bicycle ride that started and ended at Southampton. The fall train featured a bicycle ride that started at Riverhead and ended at Greenport.
The LIRR would also couple a baggage car to a regular train for a group. American Youth Hostels offered one train a month to various locations in the late 1970's. Perhaps this is what you remember because a number of these rides would go out using one branch and return via another.
Not only baggage cars but mail cars and old coaches were used to carry bicycles. There were about a dozen coaches that the LIRR used to keep for this purpose. The LIRR's conversion to push-pull operation caused these cars' demise. The cars would have required extensive overhaul to operate in a push-pull consist.
You don't need to be a nucular scientist to pronounce foilage!
Koi
Koi
Other nitpick, it’s foliage. (See here).
How about getting it from Flatbush Av instead of Penn Station so like that you guy's that never rode the M7 can get a chance to ride one
I've never had a car in my life and I'm glad that I didn't. It seems like everyone in my family who started driving at 18, were involved in multiple accidents. This is why insurance for young males is so high due to their tendency to speed since an 18 year old male often acts 12 when behind the wheel of a fast car with friends in the back seat. It's insane when we have the best public transportation system in the world for parents to give their kids brand a new Mercedes to speed around town with. There is NO reason in the world these kids should have been given a car to drive with. They would still be alive this morning if their parents had given them MetroCards instead $60,000 dollar weapon which led them to their distruction.
What happend to sending your kids by bus? By train? or walk?
http://wcbs880.com/topstories/topstoriesny_story_280083553.html
It was just another story of stupid teenagers acting recklessly that costed them their lifes.
Mark
OTOH, for the price of one subway car I could have an elevator installed at the station of my choice.
Mark
Too many irresponsible jack offs. I saw some dude playin PS2 while driving!!! WTF is up wit that!?
The next morning he took it out for the very first time. He was speeding and ignoring traffic signals (of course) - and got into an accident. The car was completely destroyed (to oblivion) down to the hubcaps. By somne miracle, my cousin survived and didn't even need much of a hospital stay.
Some things don't change.
R-32.
Sure, having good handling is important. But its even more fun to drive over the cars. HUMMER....LIKE NOTHING ELSE
LOL
:-O
Eyewitness accounts are rarely close. Most people just can't judge speeds well and can't remember what they saw anyway.
What kind of car was it, anyway? I know that Civics are popular with teens who think $500 shocks and big wheels turn them into race cars, though they generally DON'T improve handling and in some cases make it worse. Short wheelbase cars are also less stable at sped (typically). In fact, the NHRA requires sepperate certifications for dragsters above and below 125" wheelbase (I'm working on the 'above' catagory, but only to a 7.50 et).
And, if it was a BMW, I wouldn't be surprised either. People think BMWs outhandle everything out there, but in reality they're not much better than any other car. Most cars today are designed to be 'easy' to drive, and can achive interesting accelerations on the skidpad, often beyond what most drivers are willing to achive even in accident avoidance situations. Of course, marketing is everything...
Mark
R-32.
R-32.
Yes, and what ramps…? The Miller Elevated Highway is long gone. Not to mention that there was never an “abandoned elevated subway” anywhere near the Miller Highway or 12th Avenue.
The only elevated railroad in the vicinity—nowhere near the WSH of any era—is the abandoned segment of the old New York Central’s West Side freight line, and it runs generally near 10th Avenue.
http://wcbs880.com/topstories/topstoriesny_story_280083553.html
There is a ramp that leads to another highway further uptown. I'm not sure what it's called but it's past 42nd street.
Correct, the Henry Hudson Parkway. It and the ramp going to the tunnel leading to the FDR are the last two.
John
**driving less than the speed limit, I had an unfortunate encounter with a patch of oil that caused the car to spin off the highway and roll over on a gravel verge.
It's a sad case of percieved versus actual risk.
Mark
Because immature morons who grow up on residential side streets in the heart of New York City look at roads like the West Side Highway or the Jackie Robinson Parkway as high-speed racing strips, when, in fact, they are outdated death traps, even when driving at the posted speed limit.
>>They would still be alive this morning if their parents had given them MetroCards instead $60,000 dollar weapon which led them to their distruction.<<
The news report did not reveal where these kids resided, but if they were spoiled rich kids from the suburbs, MetroCards are definitely not in their vocabulary.
Does it really matter?
I believe they should raise the driving age to 21 and put a rev-limiter on all cars to prevent anyone from driving above 65 mph.
When I was their age, I was riding a bicycle to work and college. On trips further out, I rode the bus and took trains. What happened to our society that we can give a high powered luxury car with the capability of killing its passengers to an 18 year old child. That's what he was. A child.
If we really want to make things safer we'd make alternatives to driving more readily available in more places, both for urban transit suburban commuting, and inter-city travel.
Mark
No it wouldn't, it would be an incredibly more severe injustice than every other thing that's age limited at 21.
...like Florida. I drove to High School, though there was county owned limos (school buses).
R-32.
Of course, there are real reasons not to do that, as I listed in my other post.
Mark
At age 22, I was looking to rent a car at O'Hare Airport, and I was shocked to discover that the Enterprise branch at O'Hare will rent to anyone 21 and up with no underage fees. (This may no longer be the case, and I doubt it applies at all Enterprise branches, so please call first before relying on this information.)
I also have rented from Enterprise while I was between the ages of 21 and 25 and they did not add any extra fees, as recently as two weeks ago.
Not gonna work, the key to driving safely is practice and experience, not age alone. Admittedly maturity does have something to do with it, by no means should 12 year olds be allowed behind the wheel. However, if 16-18 year olds aren't mature enough to drive, then perhaps we need to reevaluate our child rearing techniques. You raise the driving age to 21 and all you'll see is a bunch of 21 year olds getting into the same stupid accidents, along with younger kids getting into accidents while they joyride, completely untrained in the operation of a car outside the video games they play.
Also there'd be an economic cost to all this, who do you think is gonna serve you your fries at McDees if not some 16-20 year old kid who is trying to pay off their pride and joy, a 10-20 year old hatchback? I can guarentee that their parents in many cases won't likely drive them, my parents hated driving me to and from work for the month or two before I finally got my license under NJ's insane DMV laws. Finally, you'd have to fight the people who would be caught by this, people 18 and up can vote, so you'd be fighting all those people, even if they were grandfathered in to still be allowed to drive they'd still be likely to vote no, I know I would. And again you'd also be fighting the parents of kids who need to work but would be limited by transportation.
Too often you hear about the carload of teens hit and killed by a middle-aged drunk driver, some 40 year old salesman who had a few too many at the local club and then went to drive home. Of course he's fine, and he's now got another DWI to add to his collection along with maybe another dozen or so in his file. Is it the kid's fault that they just happened to be on that road at that time? They'd be just as dead if they'd have had a 30 year old formula one driver at the wheel. Should the driving age be raised on their account? No doubt their statistics will be used to butress the case for it, all the while the fundamental problem surrounding their deaths goes undiagnosed. They were perfectly competant operators of the car, it was the other guy where the problem lie, the individual responsible for their deaths no doubt got vehicular homicide, but nothing was done to prevent other teens from ending up in the same situation.
A much more sensible thing to do if you truely want to make the roads safer would be to improve the driver training programs, and then make sure that the knowledge sticks, require driver recertification once every 5 or 10 years, a one day seminar which would culminate in a behind the wheel test on open roads. I would go so far as to advocate something similar to Germany's Rechtsfahre laws, which are largely responsible for their statistically abnormal mortality rates on the Autobahn. Basically Rechtsfahre (literally Drive Right, or Correctly) is a series of laws that govern the etiquette while on a motorway, this means no rude gestures, no tailgating, no racing, and no swearing, at least out an open window. Something like this in America could lower our vehicular deaths across the board by an order of magnitude, but there'd be massive resistance to such a wide-reaching set of laws, no doubt some people would see their civil liberties at risk when they're pulled over for flipping the bird and then following some guy with .125 second clearance. And one of the features of the driving laws in Germany is that the driving age is 18, and getting a license is very expensive, if we were to have as good a public transportation network, then I'd be all for it.
...put a rev-limiter on all cars to prevent anyone from driving above 65 mph
Again, I highly doubt that will work, as Mark noted there are times that you really need a bit more speed and power, and it'd increase fuel consumption, because you'd still have people seeing how fast they could go with a governed car.
Perhaps a better solution would be to 'human engineer' the highways. This would involve changing the interval between lane markers, making them closer and smaller where you want traffic to slow, making them longer and further apart where higher speeds are not dangerous. People will almost subconsiously pick up on the changing interval, and regardless of whether they know it or not, slow down. This could also be done with the uprights that hold the girders up, trees along the highway ROW, and even with the reflectors mounted on the Jersey Barriers in the middle. Also, a concrete or asphalt mixture that does not absorb as much noise could be used in places, so that more noise gets back to the driver, making the car seem like it is going faster than it is. It'd also be nice if they had cruise control systems that wouldn't accept speeds of over 75 mph, since above that speed if you're zooming along on cruise control, you're not likely to have enough time to even turn off the cruise control in the event you get into a problem.
Perhaps the only way to really decrease traffic deaths in the US is to lower the number of cars and trucks on the nations highways. If every city had a commuter rail system of equal coverage to NYC or Philly's (in percent covered, not area covered, I don't think Toledo really needs a system spanning equivilant from Hackettstown to Montaulk), along with a subway/trolley system at least equal to Washington DC's in %urban area covered then every city would basically get the equivilant of an angioplasty, clogged city streets would open up, and highways would be viable transportation methods instead of parking lots. And if those systems linked up to a new interstate HSR network (I favor Transrapid Maglev built right down the medians of our Eisenhower Interstate Highway System) perhaps we'd finally be rid of the Standard Oil monster that has haunted us for the past 60 years. Also, if the railroads would get fair terms to fight to highway freight carriers, then perhaps we wouldn't always have to hear about overturned trucks on such and such highway, or some fatigued driver slamming into a minivan and wiping out an entire family.
Why is it I can drive my 1000lbs Honda on an Expressway with a 22,000lbs tractor-trailer at 70+mph, yet the FRA won't let a 115,000lbs DLRV run on the same tracks as a 2 million pound freight at 60mph?
Because you can swerve your Honda out of the trucks way?
50 or 55 most likely, and all those railroad built tunnels were two-lane, 30 MPH.
Remember, when first opened, the Turnpike ran only from west of Harrisburg to Irwin, which is southwest of Pittsburgh.
The two ends were extended to the Ohio line and Philadelphia in the 1950's, and since then lots of $$$ has been spent to bring the Turnpike up to 1990's standards. Grades were reduced, tunnels bypassed or doubled. Curves were eased.
It's a lot different road than in 1938, and it was the 10th Wonder of the World then.
A standard sight distance of 600 feet was chosen. Straight-aways were designed for 100 mph and the spiral curves were superelevated to accommodate 70 mph. Easy grades were carved through valleys, ravines, and mountains. Almost 70 percent of the original turnpike was straight, with the longest a 40-mile stretch west of Carlisle relieved by one curve to break the monotony.
The Turnpike opened in 1940, not 1938 as I had said.
I suspect the posted speed limit was either 50 or 60 MPH, except in tunnels, where 35 was the limit. BTW, driving in the tunnels in the two lane period was interesting, especially to the 4 year old in the back seat.
Given 90% of the autos couldn't make 100 MPH in 1940, the design speeds were not used to determine the posted speeds.
If it were up to me, there would be speed limits in the US like in Germany.
As I said, most fatal accidents happen at speeds less than 45 mph.
As I said in yet another post, sometimes you need to punch it to avoid geting sideswiped by an idiot on your rear.
If we want to reduce highway deaths, make alternatives to driving available: rapid transit in cities, buses in towns, and good rail between cities and towns. Less driving = fewer accidents.
Mark
Posted speeds and design speeds aren't the same thing. There's a relatively large safety factor built into posted speeds. I'm sure the same is true of most timer locations in the subway.
Mark
If they can pass the DMV's driving test, then they should be allowed behind the wheel.
If they can pass the DMV's driving test, but are not qualified, what's the point of the DMV's tests at all?
The example you pointed out from Germany is a good idea. If all people under a certain age are automatically unqualified, they would simply fail; the driving age is completely redundant.
I would disagree. Driving is fun. Just not in NYC.
You have to have learned how to drive in Manhattan in order to enjoy it. I've had the great experience of taking Drivers' Ed in the area near Union Square.
If you don't enjoy driving, it's certainly a hassle.
Huh?? What about all the roads that have 70, 75, etc mph speedlimit. There are those in Florida, and there are even more out west in Nevada and California, and all over the place. That's not a practical idea at all.
And at one point people believed that black people and women were inferior to white men.
The driving age serves no purpose, it should be abolished.
Because immature morons who grow up on residential side streets in the heart of New York City look at roads like the West Side Highway or the Jackie Robinson Parkway as high-speed racing strips, when, in fact, they are outdated death traps, even when driving at the posted speed limit.
Especially in a Mercedes, and at 2AM, an experienced driver should not really have too much trouble doing 90MPH on the WSH. I guess the issue here was either driver inexperience or a malfunction of the car (blew a tire?).
R-32.
Mark
Of course it will more likely be used for cruising around town and going to the mall, and showing how much better you are than anyone else. Its really the ultimate selfish person vehicle.
If you want to protect your family, live where there is good transit. Over 40,000 people die in car accidents each year. That's the other irony...people leave cities for safety, while far more people are killed in car accident each year then are murdered.
Mark
That's just it...SUVs aren't cars, they're trucks, and they require more skill to drive than cars, thus adding to all the problems.
I think the reasons you mention are reasons I'd rather ride the subway...it's being driven by a professional and there are not all those road idiots cutting you off.
Mark
Anyway, I'm not sure how states differ, but i found out you need a class D license instead of E to drive anything over 8,000 lbs. How close are the biggest SUV's to this?
Uh oh, now i'm way off topic.
As far as I know, only the Hummers are over that level.
With all seriousness though, driving an SUV, and I mean a big one, not like, a Dodge Ram or somethin, but like a hummer, or an escalade, should require some sort of lower form of a CDL.
Let me think ... I've known a fair number of people in my lifetime, probably up into the thousands if you count casual acquaintances and co-workers and so on, and of all those people I can think of only two homicide victims. Both of them were fellow students in my high school, neither of them close friends by any means, and both became victims within a year or two of graduation. Neither homicide was the sort of random street killing that most people fear. One was your typical jealous-boyfriend scenario, the other the result of a drunken barroom brawl. Now, on the other hand, if I try to think of the people I've known who've been in fatal car crashes, well, the number is far, far higher.
I feel much safer living in West Philly with its trusty subway-surface trolleys.
Mark
The only thing to be moralized is whether or not they should've been given a Merc in the first place. Give 'em a hoopdee; hell, they're teenagers - they'll be glad to drive it!
R-32.
Mark
R-32.
1. All R-62a come down to Coney Island, the 6 car singles be coupled in to permanant 6 car units and then upgraded for CBTC as are the 5 car units (expensive...you better believe it)
2. R-62a transfferred to the 4 line and the 4 line sends their R-142/R-142a/R-142s orders to the 7 which have the room for CBTC already built into them and can easilly be installed without much hassle.
Now there is a lot of chatter going on in the A division, it is clear that the R-142 series trains are destined from the 7 but which line will be the donor and when are the two biggest questions.
The problem is will the MTA invest in such a massive movement of cars after it already has, it comes down to the success once again of the Pilot Program going on, right now on the L line when it begins sometime this year or next year.
The big question is which route will be next after the 7 for the CBTC? Does anyone know? I'm thinking some of the easier routes that are good candidates are in order:
The G
The J/Z
The M
Anyone agree/disagree?
Grade timers are grade timers.
Adam
1. All R-62a come down to Coney Island, the 6 car singles be coupled in to permanent 6 car units and then upgraded for CBTC as are the 5 car units (expensive...you better believe it)
2. R-62a transferred to the 4 line and the 4 line sends their R-142/R-142a/R-142s orders to the 7 which have the room for CBTC already built into them and can easily be installed without much hassle.
Now there is a lot of chatter going on in the A division, it is clear that the R-142 series trains are destined from the 7 but which line will be the donor and when are the two biggest questions.
The problem is will the MTA invest in such a massive movement of cars after it already has, it comes down to the success once again of the Pilot Program going on, right now on the L line when it begins sometime this year or next year.
Also the problem is the Flushing line is 11 cars, meaning the MTA will go to Bombardier or Kawasaki or both and ask them to make B unit cars to be referred to a C unit cars to install to create 6 car sets. In this configuration A-B-B-C-B-A or any other configuration for that matter. Also if that is done and permanent 5 and 6 car sets are created then new boards would be placed up because Corona Yard is installing a loop track, so the 5 car and 6 car boards would have to be present depending on which direction the 5 car and 6 car sets are. Still far cheaper than retrofitting the R-62a for CBTC.
Now while Politics might be another reason to send the R-142 series prematurely to the 7 line it might be also to get Corona Yard acquainted with the cars, because as it stands Corona Yard does not have the capability to take care of the R-142 series yet. So it would not be a good move unless they were also going to do some trial testing.
That is my look into it; let's see what happens; only time will tell for sure.
-Robert King
The hard part is juggling some of the 5-car sets into 6-car sets, since the 7 runs 11-car trains.
Or will the R-142A's on the 7 be running as 10-car trains? That's fine by me! The passengers complain that they don't have the newest toys, so we'll give them the toys, but we'll cut their service in the process. That way the rest of the A Division has more cars to work with and can run more service.
If it's the politicians who don't ride the subway who want the change, why should the riders who don't care be made to suffer?
Abstain?
Failing that, just elect an actor and you know you can't go wrong.
Once upon a time, IIRC, The (C) train used to have Red Bullets on the front. Well it just so happened that when Mr. Heston was riding on that Line, there was a break apart, and....
Yup, you got it.... it was a parting of the Red (C)!
:) Elias
BTW, just saw N7511-7515,7691-7695S coming out of Far Rock, guess they're still playing with the regen braking stuff.
Adam
But why suddenly decide to fix up the R-142A's and put them into service on the (7), when they so recently transfered the R-62A's over? Did Corona want to get rid of the redbirds THAT badly? =(
It's because they're transferring Redbirds out from the 7. Something has to replace them.
Have you seen Roosevelt Ave as it goes thru Corona recently?
So, explain yourself. Your big rumor turned up to be wrong. Do you have anything to say for yourself?
I did see one of the R62A sets you mentioned on the 6 line last night, the destination sign read: TO PITKIN YARD/76TH STREET.
1. Transfer of rolling stock requires T/O's and they will be working on extras so that's O/T there. NYCT did not alllocate any extra money in their 2004 operating budget for another transistion.
2. NYCT won't just "complete" the process on sending R62a sets, tne turn around and start another transfer of R142a sets to Corona. Not when the yard is in the process of a massive renovation.
3. CBTC signals have to be online, or at least nearing completion, so it's too early to send R142A cars over to Corona when the yard is not even ready yet.
Incorrect. According to depth measurements taken by one of our gadget-equipped SubTalkers (meteorologist Todd Glickman), the 7 tracks would pass nicely below the lower level station if extended.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
According to an engineer working on the 7 extension, the lower level platform is in the way. I don't know the source of the survey information.
There are many instances of IND blocking potential expansion of existing lines. Another spot is 33rd and 6th where the odd station geometry blocks the planned extension of the PATH to 42nd Street.
That was done after the plans for H&M's extension were dropped... the H&M station was originally located farther north and was relocated to accomodate the IND.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Original H&M 33rd street track map
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Foggy Bottom-GWU station closed due to gas main break
The Foggy Bottom-GWU Metrorail station is closed Tuesday, Oct. 7, as of 11:08 a.m., due to a gas main break 100 yards from the station. Trains are running through the station but not stopping to allow passengers to board or exit. Metrorail customers are advised to board and exit at Farragut West. The incident is also causing bus detours. On 30 and 38 routes to Southeast, buses at Pennsylvania Ave. and L St. are turning left on L St., right on 21st St., then resuming their regular routes. On the 30 to Friendship and the 38 to Ballston, buses at 22nd and Pennsylvania Ave. are turning right on 22nd St., left on M St., then resuming their regular routes.
Looking at the slide show, looks like some car got the brunt of it.
1)CTBC feature is installed on the line(or will be- still preparing)
2)Political decision BASED on the 2012 OLympics. New cars will have all the lines that will move the most people on the events of the olympics if we get them
3)Some yards have trouble with the maintence of the R142 and since corona will be renovated they will fixed up to the demands of the R-142s
R-33ML not
til next time
Why the 63rd Street alignment chosen for the subway/LIRR tunnel? Why not something closer to 59th Street, which would have allowed more direct transfers to the Lexington Ave. lines?
It was finally Rockefeller University that made the line run along 63rd Street.
76th Street would have been perfect because it would have connected to the #6 line at 77th Street which is where hunter college is. And it would have served the center of the island where most people live. Another plus about this alignment would have been that it would have relieve some of the crowding on the upper-eastside... and provide a very needed connection to the N/W lines at 31st Street in Queens via 36th Street... reducing the need for people to go all the way down to Queens borough Plaza.
N Broadway line
:-) Andrew
:-) Andrew
It would appear that, when the SAS' Initial Operating Segment to 86th/2nd Av opens, the 72/2nd Av station would not be considered a station serving the Hunter College community. True or false?
True. It would not be too useful, or at least no more so than 63rd/Lex (really better all arround.) The Hunter Campus consists of three buildings: The "West" building is on the west side of Lexington between 67th and 68th. The "East" building (mainly the library) is on the east side of Lex, also between 67th and 68th. The "North" building is on the west side of Lex, extending to Park Ave, between 68th and 69th.
:-) Andrew
Hunter College has several campuses, but its science facilities are located around 68th Street.
It is conceivable that the tunnel was moved southward to avoid problems with the two schools, and to avoid a long excavation in Central Park.
But why not go further south, in order to provide allow transfers to the Lex? Sorry to keep pressing the issue, but I still don't understand why 61st St. was not chosen. Anybody have any idea?
--Mark
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
Because that's not what happened. The 63rd Street line began as a fairly deep cut and cover project on Roosevelt Island. The tunnel boxes for the East River segments were constructed (in Baltimore I presume) and floated by barge to either side of Roosevelt Island in 1968 or 1969. Then the tunnel work continued as a cut and cover project in Queens and Manhattan. The Extension's tunnel was actually dug by the 1970s, and I recall debates about whether the TA should fill it i with dirt and forget about the project. Happily, they didn't.
The 1982 5 -year Capital Plan (the first one) contained money with which to complete the Archer Av project, and the 63rd Street extension. The tunnel was alread done, but the line needed tracks, power, finished stations, etc.
Have you been to the stations? They're pretty deep, a lot deeper than Lex stations.
I'm told that soft ground TBMs are being used for part of the East Side Access work in Queens right now.
...or this one
I DIDNT KNOW THAT WAS POSSIBLE!
And this one, from the blackout of 9/14 :)
I hope after you took that picture, you were able to leave the system with ease.
My camera's flash helped A LOT.
Stalled Amtrak train...
You know what's really ironic, is that this same truck was seen in the New York Underground show. So apparently I was in the blackout segment too! Talk about coincidence...
Canal St
Manhattan
Jamaica Center
Parsons/Archer
(E) Queens Blvd
8 Avenue
Why it was like that? I have no idea.
I don't know why Canal would be on the top roll.
How about this: There are plenty of knuckleheads who go around messing with the rollsigns.
Ok, the diamond may be wrong. DUnno why the T/O didn't fix it.
But the 111St thing isn't too unusual. Sometimes one of the scheduled drop outs at 111 St continue to Main St due to a delay or other need for a train.
BTW, I know someone was out there this weekend as when I was going home last night I let an E pass. 3 of the cars were signed up as:
175 St-G W Bridge
World Trade Center
(E) 8 Av/Queens Blvd
So which one of you are the wiseguy? :)
Now this is even WIERDER as it has an N on the inside. How is this possible?!?!?! Methinks the whole damn roll is installed upside-down.
This happens on the N and frequently the Z, but there are small cues that tell the T/O or C/R when they have the right one.
Don't know what it is on the N, but on the Z the top bar is slightly shorter.
It would more than likely have been an AM lay up to the yard. They drop out at 111 St.
Putins would have the correct signage assuming they'd make more than one trip. If not, then see above.
- Lyle Goldman
Brooklyn, NY
- Lyle Goldman
Brooklyn, NY
Save my handle!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :P :)
As a member of a student association for urbanism (Polis) at our faculty of architecture at the Delft University of Technology, I am searching for information on the spatial impact of the subway for New York. I would like to collect this information for an article in our magazine "Atlantis".
I read the article of Mr. Clifton Hood on this site, but I wondered if maybe someone associated with this site knows something about this subject, and could perhaps write an article about it.
Could anybody let me know if you happen to know someone who could write something about this subject?
Thanks in advance!
The answer is so simple, it's a dead giveaway.
A out of service R40 lash-up was operated from a position two cars back from the front, and crashed into another train switching.
Nice try.
R-32.
Actually I was born on Thanksgiving Day, 1968.
But thanks anyway.
So the answer must be transit related.
:0)
Clue #1 (and only clue you will need). This was so SHOCKING, the program was extended outward.
You are right. I am having a bad day today. Electrification was extended from Hicksville to Huntington on that day.
Explain please.
Supposedly to be kept intact. Or at least the loop tracks would stay intact.
-William A. Padron
["46th St.-Bliss St."]
They must have changed the signs on Monday or over the weekend...
U Street/African-American Civil War Memorial/Cardozo
Mount Vernon Square/7th Street/Convention Center
Woodley Park/Zoo/Adams Morgan
All of these stations used to have shorter names
This is...Mount Vernon Square-University of the District of Columbia-Seventh Street Convention Center. Transfer is available to the Yellow Line.
I think that even beats:
"Ladies and Gentlemen, we shall shortly be arriving in Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychrwyndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch. Llanfair PG is our next station stop."
I don't even know how to pronounce that! :) Try this
That quadruple-L is something else!
Than again, there is the Taiwanese town of Krungthepmahanakornamornratanakosinmahintarayutthayamahadilokphopnopparatrajathaniburiromudomrajaniwesmahasatharnamornphimarnavatarnsathitsakkattiyavisanukamprasit (a.k.a. Bangkok)
I don't even know how to pronounce that! :)
Something like:
Thlan-vair-poothl-gwin-githl-go-ge-rikh-rooeen-drob-oothl-thlan-tis-il-ee-o-go-go-gokh
Almost no one refers to 6th Avenue by this name anymore. Besides, "Sixth Avenue" is easier and quicker to say (and type) than "Avenue of the Americas."
Oh yeah, and Queens' numbering system makes LOADS of sense where you can have a 67 St, Dr, Pl, etc, etc.
</sarcastic mode>
I'll agree that some parts of Queens the numbering system's a mishmash.
wayne
Yeah, I understand the premise, but I find much of Queens to be a mishmash. It's inevidable though, it is not easy to implement a system like that when the streets aren't in a perfect grid like in Manhattan. I think although it does make finding a street somewhat easier when they are numbered in Queens, I find you still need to use a map in Queens, and what's the difference if you are looking for Rawson on the map or 33rd Street, you still have to look it up. In Manhattan, above where the grid starts, you don't need a map to find a street most of the time, and with few exceptions. That is not true in Queens. I spend just as much time looking for an unfamiliar numbered St in Queens than I do looking for an unfamiliar named St in Brooklyn. If the indes says "Greene" Ave, Brooklyn is in grid H5 on the map, it is no different than looking for 67 Place if the index says 67 Pl, Queens is in grid R5 on the map.
Numbers may be convenient, but they're also cold and stark, devoid of any character or history. Sometimes convenience isn't always the best.
5th Avenue is still important today
How about the alphabetical Avenues in downtown Flushing?
Ash
Beech
Cherry
Dahlia
Elder
Forty-Fifth
Geranium
Holly...
Note: There were no deaths by streetcar or train listed under the NYC Transit PD, the LIRR PD, or the Port Authority PD.
-William A. Padron
["Smith-9th St."]
"R line service suspended in both directions due to a person hit by a train at 59th Street and 4th Avenue in Brooklyn."
However, I think the idea of linking the continents with a transoceanic tunnel is very interesting. I just think that a cut and cover tunnel, sticking to the continental shelf to avoid sub-1000 foot running would be a much better idea. Going north to Greenland and crossing that way would only cost 600 miles over the total length, NY-London and it'd save millions by simplifying construction techniques. Also it'd allow the crossign of the mid-atlantic rift above the ocean on Iceland, which would simplify construction.
Perhaps in 50 years we'll see people speeding at 1000mph down maglevs in vacuum tubes between the US and Europe.
John
BTW: 100 feet is 4 atmospheres. You get one atmosphere for every 33 feet of seawater. Add in one for the surface.
But seriously, I think another poster said the plan would go by way of Iceland, so the ridge would be crossed on dry land.
Mark
That's why I said cross the Mid Atlantic Ridge on land in Iceland, it'd make such a maitenance manuever much simpler.
Even more likely a bridge over them.
They didn't count on NYCTA's not being able to extend the Archer Av line as a full-length replacement for it.
Of course, I have yet to see an NEC platform packed as tightly as certain Lex platforms...
The only time I ever saw crush loads like a subway was at Newark while people were trying to get home before hurricane Floyd (1999), when police were needed to control access to the platforms.
John
Yeah yeah and I'll bet you'll be saying that Trent Town is really Trenton or some wacky thing like that.
(Second Try!)
But I think there's a difference in culture ... people on LIRR platforms are used to the idea that a train entering a station may not stop, but people on the subway expect a train entering to stop, so move forward in anticipation.
Of course I think 25 mph would be more appropropriate than 15.
LIRR trains can run through stations at 80+mph, but the gap between car and platform is larger.
SEPTA's Broad Street Line used to pass the Race-Vine platform northbound pretty quickly when that station was skipped.
Not sure why SEPTA was allowed to do it and not NYCT trains.
What is the maximum speed with a NYCT width gap where the yaw damper is still effective at preventing collisions with the platform?
Actually, I think railfans are particular offenders in this category.
John
If that were true then the train would be required to enter the station at 15 MPH. Accordig to my brand new rule book, the train may enter the station at the maximum allowable speed but must not leave the station at a speed greater than 15 MPH.
If that is the case, then it isn't necessarily passenger safety, but making sure the train doesn't eat at the platform.
Or at least, that is my understanding.
Elias
The signal system assumes that trains are moving no faster than 15 mph at the end of the platform. Any train moving faster than that is at risk of hitting an obstruction (e.g., another train).
Different Signal Parameters.
As the signals are upgraded, the 15 mph constraint is being relaxed (to 40, IIRC). The rule is still 15 throughout the system, though. And most of the Flushing line still has ancient signals, where presumably the 15 mph constraint very much applies.
David
Don't hold your breath, make the system faster?? Yah right.
Doesn't that reduce line capacity when all trains make all stops?
No. So long as there is a single stop, the single track capacity will be limited by the train's acceleration, braking and dwell time. Additional stops do not further degrade single track capacity.
I am not talking about additional stops. What I meant was whether altering signal spacing to allow higher speeds for trains not stopping would reduce capacity when all trains stop (by holding the next train further from the station).
I don't completely buy into the 15 mph explanation for leaving a station. Here's why.
First off, how far will a train travel in emergency. Suppose the emergency brakes actually work at 3 mph/sec, then a train travelling at 50 mph would stop in 16.7 sec and travel 613 feet. Suppose the TA chose to use a more common industry standard of 3.6 mph/sec for emergency brakes, then the train would travel 511 feet. Of course, if the TA had used track brakes for emergency braking like the Bluebirds of 60 years ago, the PCC or most of today's LRV's, then that same train would travel only 263 feet.
In order for a train to gain access to a platform, the leading train must have completely cleared the block beyond the station. These blocks are usually around 1000 feet long, according tho the chain numbers on the signals. Therefore it would appear that there is more than ample room for a train to stop, under the most outrageous circumstances.
I really don't know how the TA intends to address this non-issue. I assume they will be spending many millions of dollars. The could increase the block length outside station. This would definitely increase the amount of time that it would take a stopped train to clear the station signals for the next train and would decrease single track capacity.
An alternative solution would be to place a wheel detector signal at some point within the station but closer to the station exit. The wheel detector signal would be set to 35 mph. It would clearly not interfere with stopping trains because they would have already slowed down before they reached the WD. For trains that do not stop, their speed over the WD would be limited to 35 mph so that the tripper at the end of the station would stop the train before it hits its leader, assuming that the TA does not have confidence in the efficacy of its emergency braking above 35 mph.
I don't think that's correct, and hopefully Dave B will chime
in....there's usually a cut-section beyond the station.
The signal leaving the station will be red until there are two
full-length blocks clear beyond it, but the last signal within
the station will clear on time with a train just a few hunded
feet beyond the leaving signal.
This is not true.
You're correct that the next signal after leaving a station is usually about 1000 feet in advance, but there are nearly always cut sections after the platform. [meaning that between the platform-exit signal and the next block signal, there are 3 or 4 track circuits.]
The cuts allow signals in the rear to clear sucessively as the train accelerates out of the station and clears the cut SECTIONS, before the entire leaving BLOCK is clear. SECTION vs. BLOCK is a basic signalling distinction.
Additionally for higher TPH there are Station Time cutbacks, which shorten the caution control when following trains haven been proven to be approaching at a substantially lower speed, allowing them to close in.
Typical high traffic IND stations have about 4 signals in approach to the station, about 200 feet apart, a signal 1/4 way in, a signal 1/2 way in, a cut section 3/4 way in, a leaving signal, and at least 2 cuts outside the station on the leaving end.
All of the signals will allow trains to close in on time, so with a train in the station, its follower can close in to 200 feet behind the station.
As the leader leaves, the follower can enter as soon as the leader is 1/2 way out, but this is where RTO rules/fear screw the efficiency of the system: By rule, a T/O can't enter a station unless he can come all the way in, unless he/she knows GT or ST is in effect, but apparently they never know, or are afraid to use it.
This is why a train will sit outside a station and with several signals clearing ahead of it. They're waiting for the last signal in the station to clear, and it WOULD, if they would just enter the station and RUN THE TIMER.
But if god forbid the signal stays red, and the train stops with the front platformed, and doesn't open up, and then moves again, some nimrod is gonna pull the cord and then everyone's writing letters. Also before the zebra boards, there was the risk of a conductor opening up as soon as he saw white tiling.
So the MTA spends big bucks to maintain additional track circuits, signals, train stops and relays, which are never utilized since current RTO rules invalidate them.
Thanks for the information.
Typical high traffic IND stations have about 4 signals in approach to the station, about 200 feet apart, a signal 1/4 way in, a signal 1/2 way in, a cut section 3/4 way in, a leaving signal, and at least 2 cuts outside the station on the leaving end.
All of the signals will allow trains to close in on time, so with a train in the station, its follower can close in to 200 feet behind the station.
As the leader leaves, the follower can enter as soon as the leader is 1/2 way out...
I don't think this is necessary for 40 tph operation. I've timed how long it takes the signals in the station to clear on the Lex express stops from when the train starts moving. It averages around 25 seconds. A train also takes on average 25 seconds to open its doors from the time it enters the rear of a station. This would leave 40 seconds dwell time for 40 tph. Under such circumstances, the approaching train would not enter the station until the leader had already cleared all the signals. Extrapolating backwards, the follower, travelling at 30 mph, would have been 1100 feet before the station, when the leader started leaving the station. Moreover at the point of closest approach (when the leader reached 30 mph), the follower would have been 880 feet behind the rear of the leader's rear. The emergency stopping distance from 30 mph is 220 feet.
By rule, a T/O can't enter a station unless he can come all the way in, unless he/she knows GT or ST is in effect, but apparently they never know, or are afraid to use it.
I've certainly observed this behavior, when I was checking rush hour headways on the Lex. There was one particular T/O who really managed to insert delays into the schedule by creeping into an empty station. He added around 1 minute to the headway, which is very substantial at rush hours.
Have you done it for all stations? If you don't, you can't say that 40
TPH would be possible. If one signal needs much longer it's the
bottleneck.
Only from 138th down to Bowling Green. :-)
Now, from my POV:
Some stations with ST signals are not identified as such in advance of the station, so until a T/O has become very familiar with a line and learned how the signals change, they aren't going to chance it.
Some stations have the last signal in the station on Grade Time and don't clear at anything close to the posted speed, making it easier to hover outside the station until it does clear (57/7 n/b local comes to mind). Other stations suffer from the opposite problem - I can get two cars in the station while my leader has his last two still there, with no indication beforehand that I'm that close to him (49 St n/b has this problem).
Sometimes, we hear of problems nearby that cause us to believe everyone is going to be stopped. Since I can't see my leader's leader, I don't know if he (my leader) will move far enough to clear the last signal in the station and let me in, ST or not. In this case, better safe than sorry.
My favorite case - 14 St/Lex s/b. Steve has noted this before - s/b expresses hanging north of the station even though they have some clear signals ahead of them. These trains are operated by T/Os who have experienced a random Gap Filler failure and tied the s/b Lex in knots. If I can see my leader stopped at Union Sq, I'm not going to move past the homeball north of the station until the last signal I can see has cleared. This way, if something untoward does happen, I, and my followers, can be crossed to the other track. If I close in on my leader ans something happens, I'm sitting over the switch and two (or more) trains are stuck behind me.
The station timer for the last hooligan signal in typical IND
signaling will not begin to run until the nose of the train gets
past the entering signal. If one were to do just that, and
for some reason the signal didn't clear, the train would hardly
be "in the station" enough to violate the rule, although in today's
punitive environment I can see why t/o would be hesitant.
Sometimes, we hear of problems nearby that cause us to believe everyone is going to be stopped. Since I
can't see my leader's leader, I don't know if he (my leader) will move far enough to clear the last signal
in the station and let me in, ST or not. In this case, better safe than sorry.
In almost every case of station time, this can't happen. In order
for your leader to have received a yellow signal to leave the
station, the full-length block in front of him had to be
completely clear. I.e. the leaving signal's control length goes
right through all the cut sections. He therefore has enough room
to pull clear of the cut section just beyond the leaving signal
and allow the last in-station signal to clear on time.
Updating the signage from scratch would be nice.
Signal never hears about troubles with ST timers, becuase no one ever knows about the troubles in the first place, the signals just clear normally when the leader pulls away.
What gets my goat is T/O's who stop to eat potato chips while signals are clearing in front of them, munching until the last station signal is clear, with 4 or 5 clear signals between.
I have had TSS from school car disagree as to ST applying in the actual station. The language on some of the bulletins is very poorly written and seems to conflict. Even the 15 mph bulletin is written poorly and does not learly explain that rule in regards to short trains like the G.
ST is not that useful anyway as a traffic control. It is good for the passengers not to get jerked around by too many quick starts and stops when the system is on a conga line.
"Even the 15 mph bulletin is written poorly and does not learly explain that rule in regards to short trains like the G."
IIRC, there is a second bulletin that says short trains should not exceed 15 mph until they leave the station.
I am not going to look for this and scan it.
Supervisors are chosen who can move trains not write memos in proper english. In fact during OPTO class we pointed this out to the instructor who said "ignore what they wrote, you know what they meant".
You of all people should know that what counts in a hearing is what in writing not the verbal hand-me-downs from school car or the yardbirds.
ST worked WELL in the 70's ... the 6th Avenue conga line (B/D) was something to behold ... from 42 NB, you'd be keying by all the way into Columbus circle and closing dead onto the tails of your leader. And when you finally got your lineup into 59th, you'd be RIGHT behind the exiting northbound all the way in. And cutting the clears to yellow TIGHTLY. And you were told that's the way you did it or else. Always got a dose of white knuckles leaving 7th Avenue into the curve, keying by and HOPING the B ahead of me was all the way up top. :)
But ST's were for real once upon a time, and you were EXPECTED to chase 'em. Are you talking about the land of IRT there?
It's more for closing trains in to one another when you're in a "conga line" situation. (like that term!)
If you are on top of your leader and they take off you have to creep in.
If you were 600 ft away you could wrap it and come in much faster.
I don't see a big time savings in the first method BUT it is better for the passengers.
If you kept creeping in, then you'd be platformed before the guy who was 2000' feet back and wrapped it around.
Also slower-speeds/closer-spacings mean more train capacity for the conga-line itself.
As the systems were re-designed as part of rehabilitation, perameters changed. For example the 1/9 and J/Z skip service plan invloved provisions for stations to be bypassed at 35mph.
Well thats just retarded, thats a collission waiting to happen. Signal systems are not supposed to assume these things. Well the train operators should be on the ball when skipping stops, making sure they can see the signal ahead is clear while watching out for passengers that are expecting the train to stop. A lot to ask for from a T/O.
Well, a hundred years ago, the signal systems assume a lot more than they do now, like competent operators.
Well the train operators should be on the ball when skipping stops, making sure they can see the signal ahead is clear while watching out for passengers that are expecting the train to stop. A lot to ask for from a T/O.
Don't forget, the dual contracts and earlier were built by private companies willing to cut corners. Everything considered "standard" in TA Signalling came from the Board of Transportation typicals generated for the building of the IND.
What is signal overlap exactly? (And don't just say the overlapping of signals, lol)
Also, they want him to be able to stop in case someone is crossing the tracks. If personnel is crossing the tracks, they usually assume the train is stopping at the station, and try to cross at the leaving end of the station, where the train stops. By doing 15MPH, you'll be able to stop your train if someone is trying to cross the tracks.
*That* is not what they are going to loose.
David
David
150 MPH skipping thru MBTA stations.
Yeah I've seen this on LIRR trains as well. Usually means the train is short.
But that's in the FRONT of the train. He saw it on the BACK of the train.
IIRC, the car was 7339. The lead car coming into 59 Street, however, is an R-33 (90-something), with solid storm door glass.
Would seem hella lot easier to just use a different number plate
(to avoid showing the 1 same car in too many scenes) WITHOUT having
to cosmetically alter a car.
That is and remains the biggest goof in the movie.
It's nice to know that 72 foot cars can run on the Lex line, but we can't even get R46's to run on the Eastern Division.
That said (and its only my opinion). I just wanted to clear up a few points about the GIGANTIC and the BRITTANIC.
The White Star Steamship Company Limited set out in the early part of the 20th Century to build the three largest ocean liners in the world. These were
1)OLYMPIC of 1911: Tough ship, took the bow off a British Cruiser (HMS Hawke) and rammed an sank a German U-Boat (U-103) in World War I
2)TITANIC OF 1912: Not so tough: first time out hits an iceberg and goes down for the count.
3) BRITTANIC OF 1915: Was originally to have been named GIGANTIC, qutiely renamed BRITANIC after TITANIC sinks. Entered service as a hospital ship but was stuck a mine in 1916 and sank.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Also rammed and sank the Nantucket Lightship in 1934.
You're right Mark. I forgot about that one.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Mark
After all those experiences, she could look at you with a straight face and say, "I aint a fraid of nothing!" and you know she means it!
I thought Olympic was scrapped. Did that one sink too? I thought only Titanic and Brittanic (Gigantic) sank.
You're right. The ship was scrapped. I didn't recall the information well.
Thanks for the correction...she still ain't afraid o' nothing!
Maybe this is why I seem to recall three trips to the lifeboat. One for each of two sinkings, then one for evacuation, though the ship did not sink.
??
When the OLYMPIC hit the HAWKE it was in no danger of sinking. THe HAWKE got the worst of it.
This Violet Jessup sounds like the Typhoid Mary of the High Seas.
Larry, Redbird R33
Now that was one luck lady.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
She would have been luckier had the ships not sunk at all!
Mark
Mark
Gee, one might think these are steps barked out by a choreographer
preparing a dance ensemble for a new play. With a cane rapping out a beat
you hear the call of "Couple and pull and swing and shove." Perhaps these
words might even make up the steps from some outlandish new dance craze.
Trust me though, they're not. These are the words which describe the job I
am presently assigned to, the 1200 Puller at Markham.
In a nutshell, we couple tracks up, pull them out, swing them over from one
side of the yard to the other and then shove them into another track. And
there you have it, thanks for tuning in, drive home safely and we'll see
you all back here next week.
What? You wanna know more, like exactly what in the world am I talking
about? Well, since you asked so nice I suppose I'll tell.
In the process of switching out cars in a railroad classification yard,
each car or in some cases group of several cars is sent into a track that
is designated by a particular block. A block is a group of cars bound for
the same destination. In classification yards, cars bound for the same
destination are accumulated into a block of cars. Trains are then built up
of these individual blocks. Depending upon the exigencies of the operation,
the cars that would be set out first would likely be placed right behind
the engines. Cars going further down the road would be placed behind that
block and the cars going to the end of the line for that particular train
would be placed on the very rear, although this is not always the case.
I intend to get into the nuts and bolts of blocking in an upcoming column.
In fact, it already is a work in progress. There is a great deal about it
to discuss and I would rather keep that separate from today's topic.
As cars are switched out either being flat switched or shoved over a hump,
they roll freely in their respective tracks. In some cases they do not
couple up to the cars next to them. It might be that the car ran out of
steam and stopped on its own, the pin in the coupling mechanism did not
drop allowing the knuckle on the coupler to close and lock or perhaps the
drawbars (the big, long arm that sticks out of the ends of each car that
carries the coupling device) did not line up and the coupling then
bypassed.
Drawbars are mounted in such a way that allows them to slide laterally.
This allows for the coupled cars to be able to negotiate curves and
turnouts. If there was no give, the cars would derail at every curve. Some
drawbars are mounted to end of car cushioning devices. These cushioning
devices take up some of the shock of slack action or rough couplings to
keep these forces from being transmitted to the lading within the car and
damaging it. Some cars that are so equipped might have the words "Cushioned
Car" painted on the sides. For many years the Santa Fe applied the term
"Super Shock Control" in large yellow and white letters to the sides of
cars equipped with end of car cushioning devices.
The drawback to end of car cushioning devices is that sometimes during the
switching process when uncoupled while moving, the drawbars on such cars
will slide to the left or right as they uncouple from the car next to them.
When this car rolls into the track and strikes the car or cars in there,
the drawbar is over to the side and the coupling does not make. The drawbar
is off from center and bypasses the drawbar and coupler on the car with
which it comes into contact. Now should the speed have been a little too
great, the bypassed drawbars can cause a derailment or damage to the ends
of the two cars involved.
In any event, the track to be moved has to be coupled up before anything
else is done with it. On my assignment, we go into the tracks that we have
been instructed to pull and couple them up as required. Once coupled, we
may just pull them up to the end of that track for the switch crew allowing
them room to send more cars into that particular track. Or, we may pull it
out and "swing it" over to the other side of the yard.
"And we were swingin'."
The way Markham is currently set up, A Yard on the southeast side of the
facility is used for receiving most inbound trains and for classification.
F Yard which is adjacent and just to the west of A Yard is primarily used
for a departure yard. Although several inbound trains do yard their cars
here periodically.
At one time, in my lifetime and railroad career (as recently as 1987),
Markham had two active and operating hump yards. The hump yard on the west
side of the facility had inbound trains coming from the north yarding in D
Yard at Harvey, the north end of the complex. These cars would be shoved
over the hump (known as the south hump) into E Yard where they were
classified and sorted. The now classified cars would be pulled down from E
Yard into F Yard, which was the southbound departure yard.
Northbound trains arriving from the south would be yarded in A Yard located
on the southeast side of the yard and adjacent to F Yard. These cars would
be shoved over the north hump into B Yard where they were sorted and
classified. They would then be pulled into C Yard which was the northbound
departure yard.
The use of pull down jobs was required to move the classified cars from B
and E yards to C and F Yards respectively. These pull down jobs would reach
into these tracks, couple up the cars and then pull them into their
respective outbound yard tracks. An operation like this is pretty standard
at most hump yards. In my days at the IHB, we had numerous pull down jobs
(referred to as trimmer jobs at some railroads as it is said they "trim the
yard") working at the east end of Blue Island Yard to gather up the
classified cars out of the hump and swing them into the departure yards.
They also had them in my days at the EJ&E as well. And I worked these
assignments during my time at those lines too.
Even flat switching yards will use pull down jobs. Normally they are
employed at larger facilities. In my days at the MoPac, we used them in the
flat switching facility at Yard Center. The switcher working the south end
of 9 Yard would do the switching and a pull down job at the north end would
couple up the tracks in the classification yard, pull them out and swing
them over to one of the long departure tracks. I worked these jobs there
many times, even holding one as my regular assignment for several months.
Smaller yards such as CN's Hawthorne Yard on the former CCP and Glenn Yard
on the former IC do use pull down jobs. The lead jobs will couple tracks,
shove room and spot them for air. The reason for this is the fact that
these yards are smaller and while the pull down jobs would provide some
relief for the lead jobs, there might not be enough work to keep the job
busy and justify the cost of its operation.
The use of pull down assignments improves the efficiency of the operation.
The switchers, often referred to as "lead" jobs as they work the switching
lead, can switch more cars as they are not having to constantly detract
from their switching to couple and shove tracks or swing the tracks over to
the departure yard. The more cars they can switch the more cars that can be
moved through the yard per shift and per day. The more cars moved, the less
the detention time accumulated on them. This translates into cars are
moving quicker which recoups a multiple payout. The quicker they move, the
happier the customers are and the more cars that can then be handled
through the yard. This also translates into lower car costs as the
detention time of foreign line cars (cars owned or leased by other roads)
is also reduced. The less time on our property, the lower the cars costs
are to CN. It can also translate into less total congestion within the
yard.
As the Illinois Central Gulf began its downsizing in the 80's (often
referred to as the "fire sale") much of the business that used to pass
through Markham had been lost with the disposal of nearly two-thirds of the
railroad. As a result, there were far less cars passing over the twin humps
at Markham. By late 1986 the south hump was only humping two shifts per day
and the north hump was only working one shift. It was decided to close the
north hump and consolidate all the operations into one hump yard.
Eventually a decision was made in 1989 to close the remaining operational
hump and flat switch all the cars at the bottom (south) end of E Yard. It
was figured that jobs could be eliminated and money saved. Of course it
wasn't mentioned that the volume of cars switched would be reduced as well
but...The closing of the hump eliminated the pull down jobs, the Car
Retarder Operators (the guys who manually operated the retarders on the
hump that controlled the speed of the freely rolling cars down the hill)
and also the Signal Maintainers required to keep the retarders and switches
in the hump yard operating in good order. I'll save the story about the
gigantic wreck that occurred when the flat switching operation began for
another time.
While flat switching works very well, you simply cannot classify as many
cars in most cases as you can with a hump. We used to routinely hump 600 or
more cars per shift using two hump jobs working the single hump at Blue
Island. That equates to some 1800 cars per day. If business levels were
such that two hump engines per shift were not required, only one hump job
would operate. A single hump job working one shift at Blue would easily
hump 350 to 400 cars. On a very good day with a good crew of Conductor,
Brakeman and Engineer, you might get one flat switching crew to do 240 cars
in the same time frame. In the days when we had three guys on the ground
instead of two and the electric switches at the south end of 9 Yard at Yard
Center were still in service, we could routinely flat switch 300 cars a
shift.
We won't get into the other logistics and costs of hump operations here
though. That may very well be a topic we touch upon at another time.
Getting back to Markham, after the humps were closed, the decision was made
to move the intermodal operations from IMX in Chicago south to Markham. IMX
(Intermodal exchange) was becoming obsolete for the ICG. The restricted
height clearances between Chicago and Kensington prohibited the operation
of double stack containers through this portion of the Chicago Terminal.
The decision was made to rip out the now shuttered, north hump and
transform it into an intermodal yard. In 1995 this project was complete and
Moyers Intermodal Facility, commonly referred to as M-I-T was opened.
In mid 1990's, the Canadian National was looking to move into a new
intermodal facility in Chicago. They were outgrowing their Railport
facility in Chicago's "Back of the Yards" community. There was no room for
expansion at Railport, a one time New York Central facility. After a false
start with an announced facility to be located along the EJ&E near Sauk
Village, CN worked out a deal with the IC to build a facility at Markham.
The old south hump of E Yard would be given up for this purpose. A Yard was
rebuilt with several tracks added to allow most of the classification of
freight to be moved from E Yard. E Yard was then ripped out, leveled and
converted into what is now known as Gateway Intermodal Facility, and then
leased to the CN.
Initially after the move to A Yard, most of the trains departed right out
of this yard. But traffic levels began to increase and then there was that
merger with CN that created quite the surge in business at Markham.
Bringing the outbound cars over to F Yard allows for the switchers to keep
doing what they were intended to do, switch. They don't have to yield to
northbound trains departing out of A Yard. It also allows for tracks to be
cleared out of A Yard sooner and creates more room to switch without having
to find a way to cram more tracks into an already confined location. The
addition of the puller jobs at the south end of Markham has added a great
deal of fluidity to the operation.
Today Markham has nineteen classification tracks in A Yard, with three of
them being fairly short. These three tracks were added in 2000. One of them
is used for bad order cars. Another is used to hold industry cars that are
destined for industries right around Markham. In making more blocks than
there are tracks, some cars are double switched. For example, cars destined
to CSX and the IHB are shotgunned into one track, and then later re
switched to separate them into two separate blocks before being swung over
to F Yard. Both blocks depart on the same train later in the evening.
The south end of Markham is actually designed pretty efficiently. There are
two leads, 7 and 8 which allow access to the south end. 7 Lead is used to
access F Yard while 8 Lead is used to reach A Yard. A track breaks off 7
Lead that is called the MIT Lead. The MIT Lead has a switch that breaks off
of it into a track known as 12 Pocket. 12 Pocket connects to A Yard tracks
1 through 16 and the "alphabet tracks" known as AA, BB and CC. 7 Lead is
also used to access F Yard and its eleven tracks of 11 through 21. 8 Lead
can be used to reach all the tracks in A Yard and also the Woodcrest Lead
which accesses the south end of the Woodcrest Diesel Shop.
An inbound train can use 8 Lead to access tracks 17 through 21 at the same
time a pull down job is pulling cars out of tracks AA, BB, CC or 1 through
16 without interfering with each other. F Yard can also be accessed through
two tracks known as 3 and 4 Thoroughfares. With the arrangement of leads at
the south end of Markham, you can have several trains moving at the same
time. Under some conditions, you just might have three movements taking
place simultaneously.
So with this background information, we'll now examine what we are doing
here on our pull down assignment.
We are usually assigned two or three SW14 switchers for our job. Once in a
while we'll get a pair of Geeps or even some road power, but switchers are
pretty common on the job. The SW14 was created by the former Paducah Shops
of the Illinois Central Gulf. NW2's, SW7's and SW9's were brought into the
shops with a remanufacturing program undertaken in 1978. This process was
far more intensive than the rebuild programs used on some railroads. The
old switchers were stripped to the frames and received a complete rewiring.
Main generators were replaced with rebuilt versions. The prime mover
(diesel engine) was replaced with one that was remanufactured at Paducah.
Other repairs and upgrades were also performed.
The first five units retained their original cabs but the rest received all
new cabs. A spotting feature on the SW14's is the cab. They have the
Spartan style cab of EMD Geeps beginning with the GP 28 and 35 models and
SD units with the three paneled roof as opposed to the original rounded
roof.
When the remanufacturing process was complete, each unit received a new
build date. Even though most of these units were originally built between
1939 and 1953 (inclusive), they all received a build date based on the
completion of their remanufacture. The remaining units that remain in
service have 1980 to 82 dates. Upon completion of their remanufacture,
these units were considered new locomotives. And irregardless of their
horsepower in their previous lives, they rolled out of Paducah with a
rating of 1200 horsepower.
Let's go to work. With power inspected and ready to go, we begin our tour
of duty. Some days we don't get right into the coupling and pulling of
tracks. On some occasions we have other chores to do first. We might have
had to switch a cut of cars from an inbound train that was yarded on one of
the thoroughfare tracks or in F Yard as the case may be and then swing some
of the cars we switched out of that track over to A Yard. The others will
remain in F Yard to be married up with cars that will be coming over from A
Yard later. Once in awhile we may have to yard an inbound train before
going about our regular chores.
The Yardmaster will give us instructions with regards to what we are going
to do such as to couple a particular track in A Yard and swing it over to F
Yard. Before we begin coupling up the track, the Conductor will contact the
lead job at the north end to find out if they will be sending any more cars
into that track. You certainly do not want to be trying to couple up a
track if it is live and cars are rolling into it. On occasion, they may
have a car or two for the track. Arrangements are made to either wait for
them to add such cars, or start our coupling having them notify us when
they are about to send any cars into this track. With the second option, we
can proceed with our work and then stop and let the lead drop the cars into
the track.
To save a member of my assignment from having to walk too much, we will
frequently solicit the assistance of the lead job. When we have made
couplings, I will be instructed to "stretch" the track. I will pull it
south stretching it out and getting it all moving. We will ask the lead job
if this track is all moving. If one of their crew is in a position to
observe it, he or she can tell us if it is all rolling. And now being there
are several cameras in place controlled and observed by the Markham General
Yardmaster, he too can also inform us if a track is all moving.
As part of the process of coupling the track, the Conductor or Utility
Brakeman assigned to our job (or Brakeman if the job is a full crew
assignment) will open any knuckles and adjust any draw bars to make the
couplings. They will also remove some of the handbrakes on cars in the
track after we have coupled onto them. Markham is built on the side of a
hill with a descending (downhill) grade to the north. There is a twenty-two
foot difference in the elevation of the yard from the south end to the
north end, so handbrakes have to frequently be applied to cars in the
tracks to keep them from rolling back out on top of the lead job.
Most Conductors and Brakeman will leave a few handbrakes applied to a few
cars. They don't have anchors (tightly applied handbrakes) that will cause
or allow the wheels to slide, but will leave on a few brakes that will help
retard the rotation of the wheels providing for some braking effort. We
need these handbrakes when shoving the tracks as we are shoving them
downhill. Being that there is no air for the air brake system on these
cars, I need some help in controlling the cut of cars when shoving it. Some
Conductors will couple up a few air hoses on the head few cars and cut the
air from the locomotive brake pipe into these cars to provide me with some
extra braking effort using the air brake system.
So now we have our track all coupled up and ready to pull out. The
Yardmaster will give us permission to pull out and instruct us of what
route to use for the move. The most common route is out through Twelve
Pocket and 7 Lead. If we have more than ten or twelve cars, we will also
need a signal at Homewood. The Yardmaster will contact the Desk One
Dispatcher via the "Squawkbox" located in his office. This is an intercom
system of sorts that is ground based using a direct line. He hits a button
that rings up the Dispatcher alerting them that the Markham General wishes
to communicate with him or her. When they have a free moment, the
Dispatcher will answer and they can discuss whatever is needed.
The Yardmaster informs the Dispatcher that we will need a signal off 7 Lead
for headroom. Depending upon the Dispatcher and the situation with trains
in the area that will require the use of the Homewood interlocking (aka
control point), they will inform the Yardmaster if we are going to be
delayed or blocked for a bit. Sometimes there are other movements taking
place and we have to wait our turn.
Should it be that the Yardmaster cannot raise the Dispatcher himself, he
will have us attempt to contact him via the radio. These folks are human
too and sometimes they need to step out of the office for a few moments. On
occasions owing to certain circumstances like a train ahead or signal or
switch problems, we may have to speak directly to the Dispatcher and do so
by flipping over the channel one on the radio and ringing him up.
When we swing the cars over from A to F Yard, we normally spot them up for
air. There is a plant using an air compressor and a system of piping to
send compressed air throughout the yard. This system, often referred to as
the air plant, yard air or ground air is connected to the air hose on the
first car spotted at the plant. A hose with fittings is used to connect the
cut of cars with the air plant. This plant is used to charge the brake pipe
system of the cars to and allow the Car Inspectors to work them and pretest
the brake system on each car. There is a device used in conjunction with
the yard air to make applications to the cars on air so that they can be
walked and inspected to make certain the brakes are working properly and
that any adjustments to the brake system on each car requiring service can
be made.
On occasion when swinging a track from A to F Yard, there will be a misfit
car within the track. This misfit might be a car that was erroneously
routed into the track when in fact; it should have gone into another track.
Or the misfit might be a car that has been reconsigned; that is had its
routing and destination changed after it was classified. This does happen
from time to time. Some commodities such as lumber are shipped to "Chicago
CN" with no particular destination. This load will be sold en route and
then given a final destination. However, sometimes that buyer then resells
the entire load and it is given yet another destination. There are various
other reasons for reconsignment as well, but we won't dig into that now.
So we pull the track out up to the misfit car and stop and make a cut. This
misfit is then sent into the proper track. We then recouple to our track,
then pulled out and swung over to the other side.
There are air spots on both ends of F Yard. We will be informed if the
track we are swinging over to F Yard is a north end or south end spot.
Trains departing northward out of Markham are normally north end spots
while southbound trains are normally south end spots. You want the yard air
attached at the end from which you are going to couple up against.
As I have mentioned, Markham is on the side of a hill. And the hill can
wreak havoc to the operation. A lot of loads in a track we are pulling out
can make it extremely tough for a pair of SW14's to pull. Sometimes we will
stall as there is too much weight and not enough power. We will need to get
a push from the lead job to get us out of the yard. This situation occurred
three times this past week for me when I only had a pair of SW14's.
We will coordinate the move with the lead job and they will couple on to
the rear car of our cut. I instruct the Engineer on the north end to "shove
it to me" and simultaneously I will begin to pull on the cut. The lead
usually has a trio of SW14's for power, so we now have five of these little
critters at work. Friday was just such a situation with a big, heavy cut.
Even with five switchers going all out, we were struggling to make 10 MPH
as we rolled this cut up and out of A Yard.
Once the lead job reached the south end of the A Yard coming as far south
as the road crossing there, they cut off on the fly. This means we did not
stop the move for them to uncouple. The Brakeman on the lead job is riding
the steps of their locomotive coupled to our cut. He will get enough slack
between the couplers to allow him to pull the pin (uncoupling lever) and
instruct his Engineer to stop. We pull away from them just like that. Of
course you can tell as soon as they have cut away though as the cut again
becomes very heavy against your locomotives, as if you had just made a
major brake application. Normally though, there is enough momentum and a
short enough distance between the point where they cut off and where you
will be stopping once you clear the switch. So you don't stall and are
finished with the lead job as a pusher or helper, at least for this move.
The south end of Markham is located in Homewood. The lay of the place makes
it very accessible without having to trespass onto CN property. We
routinely spot railfans observing the operations and frequently taking
photographs. From time to time I will spot somebody I know out there. I
wonder how many pictures of me exist in somebody's files and archives?
Should you make the trek out here, it helps to have a scanner so you can
tune into the action. Should you want to listen in, we normally work on IC
channel 7, which is 43-43 on the digital railroad radios with a frequency
of 160.755. This channel is also the road channel on the former CCP between
Hawthorne and Freeport, so you might pick up a conversation from there as
well. The lead jobs work on IC channel 3 which is digital channel 90-90 and
frequency of 161.460.
While our actual job symbol is R97191, we normally use the old IC symbol of
RMK09. Oftentimes we just say "O 9" or sometimes "Job 9." Once in awhile
somebody still calls it the MIT job, which is what this job used to be. And
still other times somebody will call it the 12 o'clock job or the 12
o'clock puller. Once in awhile I'll call it the "12 o'clock south pull"
resurrecting a name from the past. Now on Sundays I work with a different
crew. The regular Conductor is off on Sundays and I have the relief job
known as RMK02 covering for them. So on Sundays we go by that symbol or O 2
for short. And we often work on IC channel 4 instead. This is digital radio
channel 78-78 and has the frequency of 161.280.
So to quote the late Harry Carey back in the days when he used to broadcast
the White Sox and long before he joined that "other" Chicago baseball team;
"If you're in the neighborhood, come on down."
By the way; I don't care if the Cubs get into the World Series, I cannot
route for them as it would be morally and ethically wrong. Here's hoping
"the Florida Fish" sweep them in four.
Now one last note before we call it thirty for this edition, periodically I
make mention of web sites that some of my readers operate and suggest you
visit them. I visit them before I endorse them so as to make sure they are
not some weird, sick or disgusting type of sites that are not suited for
family entertainment or information. Even though I have been called all of
these names over the years, I don't wish to subject you the readers to such
stuff. So it is not to worry when I mention a site.
And with that, it's time to endorse another one. Click onto
www.ridetrain.com when you get a free moment. You'll be welcomed to the
"secluded and luxurious world of Private Railcars." Should I ever hit the
lottery, I'll be one of these people. In the meantime, I can look and hope
as can you. Also, a little bribery was offered to promote this site.
Several years ago, the greatest name in the entire history of morning drive
time radio, Fred Seibold had me on the air with him as a guest. Fred has
been the king of radio for so long I believe that as a youngster, he was
friends with David Sarnoff, Lee de Forrest, Edwin Howard Armstrong and
Guglielmo Marconi.
Fred made the fatal mistake of offering to have me on again if I promoted
this web site. Now of course I told him this time I want the entire show
and not just a time slot. And yes, even the legendary Paul Harvey would
have to wait for us to conclude. I may be easy, but I'm not cheap. Yes
indeed that would make for a "Good Day."
So click onto that URL and make the counter at this web site run into the
next century. You asked for it Fred.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2003 by JD Santucci
Halloween is coming, isn't it? :-P
I might as well mention it now. I set out yesterday to spot the new Bliss, Lowery and Rawson signs. Not surprisingly, no passenger seemed to care except me.
I did spot R62A's all around in service. Even a set with red stickers. I also caught a Redbird in service and possibly a wash train heading for Jamaica. It consisted of R62A's sandwiched between Redbirds.
That set (1600's, I believe) came from the #1 line.
Let's use the (7) as an example, as I use that line the most, and observe more T/O's there.
In a half-width cab, the T/O typically drives with the door closed. But then there are some who drive with their doors propped open, allowing the people sitting across from the door to see him. There's a tiny metal rod that looks sort of like a monkey wrench, and they attach it to the door to hold it open. Maybe some don't like tight spaces?
The full-width cabs on the (7) have tiny square windows near the tops of the doors. I've noticed that a lot of T/O's now hang their bags over that window so no one can look through, and some have even permanently taped a piece of cardboard over the window! Is this an enforced rule now? Are the drivers really that sensitive? This seems to be an issue, because all of the new cars, the R-142s and R-143s, all have "vacuumized" glass, which blurs your view out the front, and prevents you from looking too far left or right. Older cars, like the R-68s and R-44s have black gunk sprayed all over the windows, and sometimes newspapers are taped all over the windows.
Here's a future solution to please both the T/O's and the railfans! Since all future cars will have full-width cabs, install a curtain that will separate the driver from the door, and then there'll be no need to vacuumize the door, and we can keep our railfan window! I'm sure a curtain will be cheap enough to install. And the T/O can choose to keep it open or closed. Everybody wins. =)
In which case, if I wanted to railfan, I would stand there and stare at the T/O. And when he asks me to stop, I'll say, "Close your door, because I just want to look out the front." They can't tell me where I can't look!
Thanks!
R-32.
Robert
Given that so many thousands of SMEE type boids are dead and burried, there ought to be thousands of these clamps around for the 32s, 38, 40, and 42s.
Elias
I had an awful one on the (7) today. He was literally WHISPERING into the microphone thing! I couldn't hear his announcements AT ALL, so I left the train, and stood RIGHT OUTSIDE HIS OPEN WINDOW, and I STILL COULDN'T HEAR HIM, even standing right next to him! He really was whispering! And he never mentioned the G/O between Woodside and Willets Pt. until we were already stopped at Woodside. Aren't these things supposed to be announced way in advance? There weren't any signs at Queensboro Plaza either.
System wide OPTO is one of the key benefits of CBTC.
Look out, though, we're in for another MetroCard single supplier boondoggle
read on:
"...Alstom, one of two technology followers, has decided to withdraw from the Canarsie Pilot Line CBTC standards project. We have yet to read anything official from Alstom but its recent financial woes may have been one factor in its decision to withdraw.
"NYC Transit which plans to develop a RF-CBTC technology standard based upon Siemens Meteor inductive loop technology pioneered at RATP may now be looking for another follower to join Alcatel.
"But an unanswered question remains: How can NYCT obtain meaningful competition on future NYCT CBTC procurements if NYCT's key CBTC subsystem interfaces remain closed and proprietary? It appears these key subsystems (which are still under development and which we understand even NYCT doesn't know what they will cost) can only be purchased from the leader at apparently unpublished prices..."
What is the difference between a maximum possible tph and the tph achieved by a conventional signal system?
The T/O can twiddle his thumbs just like those Operators on the DC Metro or BART or PATCO.
Is CBTC required for ATO?
What was/were the source(s) of ambient light in this picture? The side of the streetcar is reasonably well lit but the front isn't. I was thinking that there might be a streetlight on the line pole near the rear of the car, but that couldn't possibly be casting the shadows of the people standing to the left behind the camera...
-Robert King
-Robert King
Orange Empire has 3 LA PCC's. 3001 is from the 1937 order, LA's first. It's painted in the Los Angeles Railway colors. 3100 is from the 1942 order and is painted in the Los Angeles Transit Lines (NCL) colors. 3165 is an all-electric from the 1948 order and is painted in the LAMTA paint scheme.
Frank Hicks
Just be warned: this trip is NOT SET IN STONE, so if you want to railfan with me, please be aware that I may change my mind about even going on the trip anytime between now and Monday. So I wouldn't advise taking time off work just to see me (although I can understand how everyone would want to drop everything to meet the world-famous Rob from Atlanta :-)) and having the plans change.
Monday I have off, if you were thinking of coming in then. I do have exams to grade, but I can probably spare a few hours, or maybe even the whole day. (But don't change your plans just because of me -- depending on my progress on Thursday and Friday, I may have to spend all day Monday grading.)
Sorry Rob, I'd like to meet you in person, but Monday I have other plans for the long weekend. Perhaps Tuesday evening may be more convenient, but I may change my mind about Monday.
But, as I said, I can't guarantee anything. I'm giving the exam tomorrow and I want to have it graded by Monday night. I can't work on it Saturday or Sunday, so if I don't finish on Friday, I'll be busy for part or all of Monday. My guess is that I'll have most if not all of the day free.
And I'm still available Tuesday late afternoon/early evening (unless I still haven't finished grading).
So let me know which you prefer (by email, or we can continue this conversation here if you want others to see it).
Either day we have a rare chance of catching both Redbirds and R-142A's together on the Flushing line, if the rumors of the pending R-142A transfer are accurate. Since the Redbirds will be gone any day now, Monday may be the slightly better bet.
An outspoken blowhard for an anti-tax program criticized the plan because of: A) putting toll lanes("lexus lanes") on the main interstate, which wasn't funded by the tax and the state was providing for free. They're going to get them anyway, so that's a joke.
And B) the $400 million light rail system that would have stops along roads that carry in excess of 100,000 cars per day. Not to mention the percentage of $400million out of an $8 billion dollar plan. So instead they'll spend 2 hours sitting in traffic now. Smart.
Also on a MUCH lighter note: The Bombardier Jet-train is making a stop in the very same transient city that's going to choke itself this sunday(or was it saturday). Public is invited, photo's are probably allowed since they're having a media photo-op. Should be awesome. Hopefully I can go and get some, but the notice is short since I only heard it today. Why it's not going to the other city the high-speed line is linking is anybody's guess, but I wish they could've done a test run!
It's also ashame the bad name Jeb's brother George is giving him. He's so much more brighter and more able-bodied. Jeb's the one that should've been given the chance first(even though he says he doesn't want the job).
Next stop for Florida, Tampa's $8.7 billion plan. They're more transit receptive I think. At least that's what the newspapers make it sound like. There's no way any of these cities can let themselves get worse than Miami currently is(except they passed a tax for transit, so my nightmares a reality soon).
By the way, I live in Springhill which is 50 miles N. of Tampa, in Hernando County. I'm always in Tampa, though, I go to school here.
R-32.
washingtonpost.com
Amtrak to Alter Acela Express Schedule
Improving On-Time Performance Means a Cut in Some Northeast Corridor Service
By Brad Foss
Associated Press
Monday, October 6, 2003; Page A07
WILMINGTON, Del., Oct. 5 -- With its fastest and most expensive trains in the Northeast late nearly 30 percent of the time, Amtrak will make significant changes to its Acela Express service later this month in an effort to boost reliability and attract more high-paying business travelers.
Several stops between Boston and Washington, including New Carrollton, Md., will be curtailed or eliminated, weekend service will be halved to make more time for train maintenance and schedules will be revised to more accurately reflect actual trip times.
The changes take effect Oct. 27 and will appear in new schedules to be made public Thursday.
The overhaul is intended to give Acela "a little more room to breathe" as Amtrak strives to improve its disappointing on-time performance, said Walt Peters, the passenger rail's chief scheduler.
Acela's sleek high-speed trains were introduced to the region about four years ago with high expectations that, in hindsight, were "a little too optimistic," Peters said in an interview at Amtrak's national operations center in Wilmington. "I think we have released the pressure valve with these changes."
Amtrak's goal is to get Acela's on-time performance above 90 percent, an achievement Peters and other managers believe will result in greater customer satisfaction and a $1.3 million-a-year increase in revenue.
The overhaul comes as Amtrak wrangles with the federal government over a proposed $1 billion in subsidies for 2004 and as unionized Amtrak workers threaten to walk off the job because of underfunding of the railroad. A planned walkout by Amtrak workers last week was delayed until Oct. 20, the date set for a hearing on the railroad's motion for a preliminary injunction.
While schedule changes will affect regular Amtrak service as far north as Vermont and as far south as North Carolina, the biggest adjustments by far were made to the Acela service in the busy Northeast corridor, where 35,000 passengers travel daily and equipment problems are rampant.
Still, Amtrak ridership is up about 10 percent nationwide since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, a spokesman said. Some travelers have shied away from airlines because of the extra wait times and uncertainty stemming from airport security screening.
To attract more business travelers to its premium Acela service, one roundtrip between New York and Washington will be added on weekdays, bringing the total to 13.
However, Amtrak will eliminate 10 Acela trips between New York and Washington on weekends. This will give crews more time for maintenance and hopefully reduce the number of mechanical problems during the week, Amtrak said. The canceled trains will be replaced with Metroliner service, which is slower and less expensive.
To speed up trip times a few minutes each way during the week, the New Carrollton, Md., stop will be eliminated on all Acela trains and on most Metroliner trains. Acela trains will also bypass Metropark, N.J., and Baltimore-Washington International Airport on an alternating basis.
"That doesn't mean we've walked away from BWI and Metropark," Peters said, adding that, with Metroliner and regional service included, Amtrak serves those locations "at least once an hour."
Peters said tweaking the Washington-New York schedule is vital to improving the punctuality of Boston-bound trains, as well. Northbound Acela trains that arrive a few minutes late in New York can be made to wait much longer than that as dispatchers give the right of way to commuter trains serving New Jersey and New York.
To prevent this from happening on southbound trains, Amtrak will eliminate the New Haven, Conn., stop in four of 11 daily roundtrips Acela makes between Boston and New York.
Even after reducing the number of Acela stops, the new Amtrak schedule will list New York-Washington trips as 6 minutes longer, at 2 hours and 47 minutes. Washington-New York trips will appear on the timetable as 3 minutes longer, at 2 hours and 48 minutes.
Listed trip times between New York and Boston will not change.
© 2003 The Washington Post Company
They need to do more, though:
-Increase top speed NYP-WAS to 140 and increase areas where it can do that. There was talk early on bout Amtrak's trying that.
-Skipping New Carrolton and Metropark will increase average speed. It should be possible to achieve close to a 2 hour 30 minute schedule.
I ask this - based not on experience, but on what I seem to remember from long ago.
Is there a passenger count of the people using this station to go to cities on the Acela service?
Yes. Metropark would be problematic -- they'll probably lose revenue from there. New Carrollton is in the wrong place anyway -- nobody from the Washington Metro Area would want to leave their cars there. At least not those who ride the Acela Express.
I think the right approach here is for them to refuse to sell Metropark-New York Acela Express Tickets, and to refuse to sell BWI-Washington Acela Express Tickets.
AEM7
CG
CG
The only thing I have a problem with is the skipping of New Haven, Ct. Which is a more important station, New Haven or New London. I'm assuming it's New Haven. Overall, here is what I wanna see with Acela express:
BOS-Providence(or some important stop in RI)-New Haven-NYP-PHI-Baltimore-Washington D.C.
Local stop is where the people board for the long distance journeys. AEM7
That is a reason NOT to stop in Metropark. The reason to stop in Metropark is the people heading from tony suburbs in NJ to New Haven, Providence, Boston; and Wilmington, Baltimore, Washington. AEM7
If these commuters are willing to pay a premium price to ride Acela Express, why not offer them the option. If their participation increases revenue more than expense, then economically it makes sense to do so.
Amtrak is pursuing a good compromise: every other train visits Metropark. This way, Acela Express can keep or improve its timetable, and Amtrak still services the station once per hour.
Viable alternatives do exist, of course: the Metroliner is only marginally slower into Penn Station from Metropark; NJ Transit can run an express that would skip a lot of stations between Metropark and Newark-Penn; or (fill in what you like).
I have written more than once to Congress in support of an additional Hudson 2-track rail tunnel.
Except it almost never makes economic sense. This is a question of percentages versus dollars. A railcar is a railcar, and it runs. The capacity is fixed, in the short term. You could fill up the seats with Metropark-NYP passengers, or you could fill up the seats with Metropark-BOS passengers. If you think you can take two short haul pax, Metropark-NYP and NYP-NHV, the margin there will almost certainly exceed one Metropark-BOS passenger. But in most cases the crush load going Metropark-NYP will displace the (lower margin, but higher dollar value) ride from Metropark-PVD or -BOS. Thus, at some point, it makes sense to exclude a customer group (or to price the service in such a way that the dollar value from Metropark-NYP is the same as the dollar value from Metropark-BOS.
There are many models that can be developed to come up with fares for this particular situation. Amtrak's revenue management group has gotten a lot better under Warrington, and is doing some of those things. We hope they succeed.
AEM7
Amtrak must price the longer trips with an eye to competition. There is no real competition for rail from Metropark to NY-Penn (Greyhound, perhaps?) However, PHL-BOS is served by airlines. Amtrak may have to accept a lower margin ticket there to ensure that passengers prefer it to an airline.
Therefore, the short-haul passenger serves an important purpose: to subsidize the longer-haul passenger who, without the subsidy, might end up flying instead.
The short haul passenger can choose levels of service: a cheap commuter ticket, Amtrak Metroliner, or super-deluxe Acela. The Acela is only marginally better in short haul (nicer cabin? Better food? More attractive people riding with you to exchange phone numbers?) but if you're willing to pay the margin, why shouldn't Amtrak take you?
Not necessarily -- the objective here is to maximize revenue, and not ridership. If on the Metropark-BOS leg, Amtrak cannot carry passengers and still make a profit, those people should fly. Of course, "profit" is a loose term; "profit" could include government subsidy, and might even exclude the cost of capital.
Therefore, the short-haul passenger serves an important purpose: to subsidize the longer-haul passenger who, without the subsidy, might end up flying instead.
Cross-subsidy = bad. In general, short-haul passenger don't pay as much "system contribution" as long-haul passenger, but the good thing about short haul passenger is that they are plentiful. So, the optimal strategy is to reserve as many seats for the long-hauls as will generate more system contribution than the short-hauls. There is no real rule of thumb -- it will depend on the actual situation as to what the "passenger mix" (i.e. long v.s. short haul) ought to be.
but if you're willing to pay the margin, why shouldn't Amtrak take you?
Because if Amtrak can make more margin out of a long-haul passenger than a short-haul one, Amtrak should refuse the short-haul passenger with a smaller margin and save that seat for a long-haul passenger who generates a larger margin. On the other hand, if the long-haul passenger does not generate a larger margin, then the seat ought to go empty between NYP-BOS and the Metropark-NYP passenger should be carried instead of the Metropark-BOS one.
AEM7
Agreed. I addressed the ceiling in my post; you are defining the floor in yours. We're still on the same page.
"So, the optimal strategy is to reserve as many seats for the long-hauls as will generate more system contribution than the short-hauls."
Agreed, but, as I pointed out before, Amtrak must still consider its competition. Competition is a basic force in economics, and has a vote here.
"On the other hand, if the long-haul passenger does not generate a larger margin, then the seat ought to go empty between NYP-BOS and the Metropark-NYP passenger should be carried instead of the Metropark-BOS one."
OK. So you want to cede the long distance passenger to the airline if the margin's too low. Amtrak has shown it can more than hold its own if its service is reliable (actually, it manages to hang on to people even when it has problems).
In that case, if Amtrak can establish and keep 3 hour schedules BOS-NYP and 2.5 hour schedules NYP-WAS, then it should do well even if an Amtrak ticket is pricey compared to an airline ticket.
The Acela Express doesn't serve Metropark-NY Penn commuters -- certainly not during any "crush loading" period. The first AE of the day from Metropark to Penn is at 11:20 AM. Amtrak as a whole avoids Metropark going NYC-bound in the AM so that they don't provide commuter service.
Given the difference in price $6.70 one way NJT vs. $41.00 one way AE, I'm doubtful anyone is spending that for the 8-10 minute (scheduled) time savings.
CG
It's not that hard to learn these things before you go off on wild speculation -- www.amtrak.com has all the schedules. Of course, if you want to build an Amtrak NEC layout on your living room floor -- you can stop as many Amtrak trains as you want during the rush hour. (jab, jab).
CG
What does matter is the pricing model between two classes of train services.
There are two Acela Express services that run during the PM rush toward NY. These trains could easily be carrying people who work in Philly and live near Metropark, or reverse commuters or ??
Acela Regional trains stop throughout the day, including the rush. They are still priced higher than commuter rail, and between cities, compete for airline traffic.
So the relevant question is what is going on with Amtrak's pricing scheme.
You need to go back and do your homework again, as usual. :0)
What does matter is the pricing model between two classes of train services."
As I read it, you were discussing the merits and economic value of the Metropark-NYP passenger on Amtrak. My point (however poorly made until this point) is that such a passenger does not exist in any quantity by which you would make economic decisions based on them.
NJT runs trains every 30 minutes that take 30-42 minutes to get to Penn. Amtrak runs 6 trains per weekday that you can take to Penn, and take anywhere from 27-42 minutes to make the trip -- but cost you anywhere from 4-8 times more. The station agent at Metropark will tell you to take NJT if you go to the window and ask to buy an Amtrak ticket. (I lived there for 2+ years).
"There are two Acela Express services that run during the PM rush toward NY. These trains could easily be carrying people who work in Philly and live near Metropark, or reverse commuters or ??"
There's only one. The 5:20 is a Sunday only train.
I have no issues with Metropark's existence as an Amtrak station. Most AE's I take pick up quite a few people there. I just think that both you and Lexcie don't understand how Metropark fits into Amtrak's plans if you're seriously discussing ridership between Metropark and NYP.
CG
I personally like the every train is equally a train approach.
If I want to go from Birmingham New St to Coventry, a single ticket costs £3 (£4.40 First Class). You can then ride the Centro Wolverhampton-Birmingham-Coventry all stops local, the semi-fast Silverlink Birmingham-Coventry-Northampton-London, or the express Virgin WCML Wolverhampton-Birmingham-Coventry-London. All of them cost exactly the same.
If a particular rolling stock costs too much to run, it should be scrapped. You can get 125mph DMUs these days.
You need to go back and do your homework again, as usual. :0)
From posting 579659:
Metropark (Iselin, NJ) is a popular stop for a lot of commuters heading into NYC.
Sure looked like you were discussing the AM rush. Any reasonable person would interpret that sentence to mean that lots of commuters travel from Metropark to NYC, presumably in the AM rush.
Sure looked like you were discussing the AM rush. Any reasonable person would interpret that sentence to mean that lots of commuters travel from Metropark to NYC, presumably in the AM rush.
Actually, no. Crowding on trains can happen at any time between Metropark and NYP, because none of the commuter specials that run during the AM rush operate during the rest of the day. Crowding is worse in the AM rush, but crowding is problematic to an extent that long-haul passengers could be displaced by Metropark-NYP "riders" if there is no price incentive to wait for the infrequent commuter rail service.
As CharlesM pointed out, there *is* a price incentive, and it may or may not be big enough.
AEM7
One of the 6 trains is at about 1:30 AM -- so there are effectively 5 trains that would fit into anyone's "commuting" schedule.
NJT commuter service from Metropark to Penn runs every 30 minutes until 10 PM, and then roughly hourly until about 1:30 AM.
Further, there are only 3 or 4 stations that Amtrak services skip (Rahway, Linden and Elizabeth on all and EWR on some) that most NJT locals make. So the time savings just isn't there. 5-10 minutes, tops.
Of course, if you factor in the frequency with which Amtrak trains coming in to Metropark from D.C. are delayed (sometimes significantly) -- any time savings is completely wiped out, and quite possibly made worse.
CG
But it is not enforced. There are rarely ticket checks beyond Philly for the NYP terminators. The result is that not only do those passengers ride free, they also take up seats, and if the train is full, they might cause annoyance.
So the time savings just isn't there. 5-10 minutes, tops.
Time saving is not the issue here. The issue is that if I were a "commuter" from Metropark, I would take the first train that stops here, whether I had a valid ticket for the train or not, and whatever the train consist happen to be. If it happen to be an Acela Express, then I could be occupying capacity and displacing other passengers (or at least causing discomfort). This practice ought to be stopped, both with a price disincentive (for those who choose to pay for it), and with a ticket examination (for those who do not choose to pay, but board at the "discharge only" stops.
You can read the schedule all you want, but until you go out there and see the operation, you just don't know what's going on.
AEM7
Of course, the result of the ticket examination is either a ticket produced, or a fare (with or without a penalty) paid. Unlike the commuter train, the next stop inbound will be Newark-Penn anyway, so ejecting a passenger is an option which will only cause a public relations headache.
Incidentally, I have ridden Amtrak (Metroliner and Acela Regional) from Newark-Penn to New York Penn when that was the first train available in-bound. These incidents were 5 years ago, approximately. You know what? Once I bought a ticket (I think Amtrak charged me $5 whereas NJT would have been $2.50) and once I got on without one.
The first time, we arrived at Penn without my ticket's collection. I walked off the train, spotted a conductor on the platform, and handed him the payment portion of the ticket. He thanked me, a bit surprised.
The second time (I had no ticket at all), the same thing happened. No request for ticket by the time we arrived. Again, I found the conductor (not the same person as the first time) on the NYP platform, and gave him a $5 bill; he tried to decline, but I insisted, so he punched a receipt for me.
CG
Is NJT still about $2.50 between those two points?
CG
At Metropark, I can confidently report that they are and have been diligent about preventing free-loaders and misguided NJT riders.
CG
Another place where you could do that was on the LIRR at Woodside. Heading into Penn, conductors were lax about picking up tickets; heading out to Port Washington, sometimes you'd think they pretended nobody got on at Woodside.
Another thought: the RonKonKoma Branch is surely the Long Island Subway, as far as the atmosphere on the train goes. Not due to the level of service (good but nowhere near the Babylon Branch TPH count.). No, in a sense, it's like the spiritual child of the Hillside Avenue subway. Both are roughly equivalent in placement on the island of Long, running approximately along the spine of the "fish". The electrification of the branch gave it a more industrial air. And it passes through some hard pressed areas. But it also stops in many major employment centers, both industrial and office. So it is getting used for intra-island travel. The trains get extremely crowded, in the evening especially. Like subways. At Farmingdale, many people on the train are standing at the doors. They have to step outside the train to let the masses exit as there is no room on the train to move away from the doors.
Damn, I fell off topic.
On the discharge only trains, the conductors are always the first ones off -- to make sure nobody is boarding. Often, they only open certain doors at Metropark in order to prevent anyone from boarding.
What you have described in these posts -- first, commuters using Amtrak from Metropark-NYPenn, and now people boarding discharge only trains and taking up space that other passengers need simply does not happen in any meaningful numbers.
CG
No it wouldn't. Anyone who had boarded at any pick-up stop would already have a seat. If there are seats left for anyone going from Metropark to Penn, then quite frankly that's good! Otherwise it's not an unstandable distance.
2 R68's had thier storm doors wide open,one of them you could walk between the cars,the other was wide open but the next car's door was locked.
R68 #2884 had a missing route rollsign
3 N's and 2 R's stopped at the bridge platform heading NB.
Single chime on a R68
One of the rollsigns on a R40 was between a Q and D
After work at Prince St on the SB express track..... 4 R33WF,5 R62A car set,3R62A singles and 1 R33WF car!
And then last but not least,for some crazy reason 1896-1900 is now on the 1 line when a week ago it was on a 3!
If so, that may explain it !
Bill "Newkirk"
Heh... :) ;)
Moi was at 145th Street nb when the suspension occured... C/R opened
up the rear 5 and the geese flocked off... got a block ticket
and walked my arse to 145 St. Nicholas for a C train to 168 (I was gonna head
for the Bx7 bus, when I chose to check on the status of the 1) and
sure enough the 1 was running again.. onward go to 238.
You must have been on the same train as my girlfriend, she got stuck on the uptown 1 at just about the same time.
I told her to do what you did, but she preferred taking the bus. She got home about 11:45.
Do you know what the real problem was?
- The Brooklyn bound "R" train I was on was diverted thru 63rd St at 6:15 AM. No explanation was given as to why.
- Riding on northbound F around 4 PM, I noticed F trains were running express from Smith/9th to Church, where G trains were extended to cover local stops. Anyone know why?
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
22-30-1075
Now look at the photo of my wall map, and I wrote in the caption what that map's code is. So do the different codes mean that I am looking at two different releases of the subway map? Or could they both be the "Effective December 11, 1988" version, as I know the regular sized one is? Does anyone have both 1988 maps in their possession so they could look this up for me? Thanks.
You might want to check out Peter Lloyd's site.
He lists 3 versions of the 1988 map. (4 if you count the "Arts Edition")
-Larry
I couldn't see all the details of the map, but it included both the JFK Express and the 9, so it dates from late 1989 or early 1990.
Good thing she got off at DeKalb, or she would have ended up in uncharted territory. OTOH, she was waiting for an N/R (I got on an M and she let it go), so perhaps the Q would have taken her straight to her destination.
I never expected that a map collector in the U.S. would have to learn Russian.
Shame on you for trying to swindle a valuable artifact of the NY subway's history from a poor innocent straphanger. I suppose you even offered to give her directions!
:0)
That is my new hobby. So far I'm 1 for 1 and Greenberger is 0 for 1 :)
One unusual thing about this map still confuses me. When the new maps were put into all subway cars in late November 1988, they had one noticable difference from the maps given to the public. It showed the E running express from Continental to Union Tpke during rush hours only, with the usual blue "loop" between these 2 stops. On the map given to the public the loop is gone, only the orange loops for the F express service out to 179th St.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Choo-Choo: e-mail me your list of maps. I may be able to help you out.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Note: when the article talks about a "Sukkah" it is referring to the hut you see pictured at the top of the page. Jews build this little hut for the holiday and eat all our meals in it. If you are in midtown next week, you can see me eating lunch in the sukkah at Herald Square!
Choo_choo: Thank you for the link. Its always interesting to learn something new.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Use this link for a larger version of it:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid83/peedd3ade0a1382aeb411c8fdd496c671/faded54f.jpg.orig.jpg
They need to do more, though:
-Increase top speed NYP-WAS to 140 and increase areas where it can do that. There was talk early on bout Amtrak's trying that.
-Skipping New Carrolton and Metropark will increase average speed. It should be possible to achieve close to a 2 hour 30 minute schedule.
In addition to AE&C 109 and the Metropolitan-West Side funeral car (was that 2572 or something?), the Chicago city system also had one or two funeral cars. I think those were rebuilt into standard streetcars at some point, but I'm not sure and I don't have a copy of Lind's book handy.
Frank Hicks
The "Descanso" had a door cut into the side at one end so a coffin could be slid in/out.
It now is at the Orange Empire Railway Museum undergoing restoration. I'm sure our friend SalaamAllah can fill in more details.
Air Force One has a specially widened doorway that can handle a coffin.
San Francisco had a hearse street car. I've seen the pictures. Very ornate, very hearse-like, lots of glass with fringed black drapery. It ran to Colma, the huge necropolis south of the City via San Jose Avenue (paralleling if not exactly duplicating the present BART alignment).
Not to be morose, but you wonder why the MotorCoach industry never went after this market.
The tradition here in New York, where a higher than average share of lifetime income goes to celebrations of birth, death, and marriage, seems to be a limosine or two followed by a bunch of people in their own cars. In the Catholic variation, you have the wake (lots of people) followed by the funeral mass (usually just family), a procession to the cemetary (often with police escort), then return to somewhere else for food.
Anyway, on the day of the funeral it might be better to put everyone in a motorcoach designed for the occasion. It could certainly be designed with all the amenties of the funeral trolley, and would not be limited to the trackage.
#3 West End Jeff
I am presuming that 1435 is the fifth car (car E) of that consist.
Was the #4 (and that particular train in question) at that time running in a 10-car consist or 9-car consist? (Ergo, Car J may or may not exist in that consist.)
Apparently, it seems they haven't done the permanent 5-car linkage of the entire R62 class at the time (August 1991).
N.B. I do vaguely remember seeing the #4 prior to the permanent linkage of their R62s in consists of less than 10 cars (probably 7 to 9 car consists) and that was sometime in the early 1990s.
Please correct me if I happen to be mistaken somewhere.
Nick C
David
Union Square consist: (1431,1432,1433,1434,)1435,1436,1437,1438,1439,1440
1431-1434 is in operations on the 3 line.
1435: Destroyed, scrapped on site.
1436: Resides at 207 yard.
1437: Destroyed, scrapped in 2001
1438: Runs with consist 1431,1432,1433,1434.
1439: Destroyed, scrapped.
1440: Destroyed, scrapped.
As delivered, the R-62s were single cars. Around 1990, NYCT started to put them into 5-car units. That process was still underway in 1991 when the Union Square wreck occurred.
David
I ask this - based not on experience, but on what I seem to remember from long ago.
Is there a passenger count of the people using this station to go to cities on the Acela service?
Yes. Metropark would be problematic -- they'll probably lose revenue from there. New Carrollton is in the wrong place anyway -- nobody from the Washington Metro Area would want to leave their cars there. At least not those who ride the Acela Express.
I think the right approach here is for them to refuse to sell Metropark-New York Acela Express Tickets, and to refuse to sell BWI-Washington Acela Express Tickets.
AEM7
CG
CG
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
And if you don't believe us, we'll have Frank and the rest of the Rat Pack drop over and beat some sense into your head. :-)
No "Thank you for spending dear time with us each and all"... ?
'Cause I'm leaving in the morning and I won't see them again,
We'll have one more ride together till the morning brings them over to 207th, oh no-no-no, oh no-no-no.
And I don't know if I'll ever be the same.
--Mark
Botanical Gardens - Metro-North Railroad (Harlem Line) to Botanical Gardens and cross the street. #2 train to Allerton Avenue, trasfer to the Bx25 or 26 (going towards Lehman College) or the #4, D or B trains to Bedford Park Boulevard and transfer to the Bx25 or 26 (going towards Co-Op City). I would say to just take Metro-North. They have a one-day-getaway to the Botanical Gardens too. Go to this address. http://www.mta.info/mnr/html/getaways/outbound_botanicalgarden.htm
Also the Bx25 is a rush hour only limited service that compliments the Bx26 and does not run when the garden is open.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
True, that is the best way (if price is no object).
Peace,
ANDEE
Regards,
Jimmy
E. Tremont Ave is three blocks from the south entrance; E.180 st is four or five blocks. Pelham Pkway is five long (including the Bronx River Pkway underpass) blocks to the north entrance.
The Bronx Zoo website mentions the BxM11 express bus. Anyone ever take this to get to the zoo? It sounds like it could be pretty convenient (at least for people going from the East Side of Manhattan), if you can stomach the higher fare.
Michael
Washington, DC
MTA... we don't have many MTA Maryland topics and posts... nobody speaks much about Baltimore's transit agency. What is so wrong with it? I'll admit it is small, but 'tis interesting. MTA's Central Light Rail is one of the most sophisticated modern trolley routes I've seen. And there's surely plenty to discuss about the Metro Subway. Track maps? Expansion plans? Process of construction and planning? There's gotta be something we can bring up about Baltimore. Any Maryland MTA fans/riders/employees out there? Because I'm dying to discuss a different system than I usually do.
But the paucity of the system is something I find amazing. You'd think that with the DC Metro so close by to make the people of Baltimore so aware of what they could have that there'd be a tremendous popular push for better transit.
Not that there are ambitious plans out there. There's a good webpage that lists expansion plans as they exist:
Baltimore Region Transit Plan
I like the new routes they propose, but I question the wisdom in wanting to create a whole new mode somewhere between a subway and a commuter train for those routes. It'd be far more economical and practical to build lines that are compatible with the current light rail and Metro Subway. Most obviously, they could buy equipment off the shelf instead of having to pay to have all new equipment engineered and designed, plus they could service the new equipment with existing facilities, tools, and know-how if they stick to the stuff the already have. The new-mode plan just smacks too much of SEPTA's ill-fated Schuyllkill Valley Metro plans that the feds laughed off when they saw its insane price tag.
Mark
The fixed, never changing headway of 15, then 17 and now 20 minute headway discourges ridership. Miss a train, wait 20 minutes, then ride for 35 to 40 minutes to get from Hunt Valley to Howard and Baltimore Streets. Driving is actually faster, despite heavy traffic and the attendent problems. Despite this, the ridership in rush hours is pretty heavy, but non-rush usually doesn't need more than one car.
The line is mis-managed, and the folks in charge don't know how to run a high-tech streetcar line. Right now, Phase 1 of the Double Tracking Project is underway, and here's what the riders have to put up with.
1. The main line (Hunt Valley-Glen Burnie) has been split into two routes, one Hunt Valley-Camden Station for the north end and North Avenue-Glen Burnie for the south end. The Penn Station-BWI line was not changed. This means that there are 3 lines sharing the trackage between Mount Royal and Camden on a 20 minute headway. This invites bunching, as 20 is not divisable by 3. Apparently somebody failed basic math.
2. Service is suspended between Camden and Patapsco, with bus bridges between. Already there are problems, as the buses can't get to all the bypassed stations. What galls those of us who know how to do it is that 90% of the work can be done off-rail, and the remaining trackwork can be done under traffic.
It has been said that the operational model for the Light Rail is a "bus you don't have to steer". I'm not making that up.
As for the Baltimore Region Transit Plan, don't hold your breath. The plan is a re-hash of the 1966 plan produced by Parsons for the infant MTA. It featured a 6-spoked system, but money and politics killed all but 1 - the single subway line we have. The problem is that the MTA is just "going through the motions". The agency is so politicized that that as soon as anything is proposed, the politicans jump all over it, plus the Transportation Secretary is a highway man, so guess how much rail gets built. I'm not hopeful.
Mark
The main reason the initial subway line got built is because half of it is on freight railroad ROW, just not sharing the tracks. Another part is in the median of an expressway that they wanted to build. The confluence of those two facts got it built. You know it's not popular when the rush-hour service is every 8 minutes, and there are basically only 3 downtown stations (and it's arguable which one of Shot Tower, State Center or Johns Hopkins is that 3rd station). I like it, it's well run, it's clean, it's just not that crowded, just like Baltimore. The Washington area has 4 million people, the Baltimore area about 2 million, with, some would say, better highways and street systems. Much as I like it, it may not have been worth doing.
-Robert King
: )
Mark
I found the light rail system to be utterly amazing. I took Amtrak to Baltimore Penn Station on a Sunday to visit the B&O Museum (before the roof collapse) and the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, as well as ride the light rail line and the subway. I was flabbergasted to learn that the light rail line branch to Penn Station didn't run on Sunday morning until around 10 AM. After studying a "you are here" map in the station, I realized that I could easily walk to the line that started running earlier by crossing the North Avenue bridge, which gave a good view of the BSM and the CSX main line.
While riding the Metro, I got lucky and saw a Reading hopper car.
I'm looking forward to a Subtalk Baltimore field trip, which might also include a riding water taxi to Fells Point.
Lets get some feedback,
Mark
Perhaps we could do Pittsburgh some time and maybe do a little side trip to Morgantown to check out the PRT.
My question-are all of the cars due to go through this makeover and is this makeover cosmetic, or are there some mechanic rebuilding being performed as well?
Thank you.
THANK YOU!!!
I have it running all day here at work...I love watching the N's & W's coming out of the tunnel towards the Queensborough Plaza Station, plus, you can catch some 7's coming into the view on the far left of the picture as they approach the station...
THANK YOU!!!
Mark
What's the URL?
Mark
Mark
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=576358
Click here To read the rest in more detail.
from:
http://railnutternews3.home.att.net/QueensboroPlaza.html
The only thing I have a problem with is the skipping of New Haven, Ct. Which is a more important station, New Haven or New London. I'm assuming it's New Haven. Overall, here is what I wanna see with Acela express:
BOS-Providence(or some important stop in RI)-New Haven-NYP-PHI-Baltimore-Washington D.C.
Local stop is where the people board for the long distance journeys. AEM7
That is a reason NOT to stop in Metropark. The reason to stop in Metropark is the people heading from tony suburbs in NJ to New Haven, Providence, Boston; and Wilmington, Baltimore, Washington. AEM7
If these commuters are willing to pay a premium price to ride Acela Express, why not offer them the option. If their participation increases revenue more than expense, then economically it makes sense to do so.
Amtrak is pursuing a good compromise: every other train visits Metropark. This way, Acela Express can keep or improve its timetable, and Amtrak still services the station once per hour.
Viable alternatives do exist, of course: the Metroliner is only marginally slower into Penn Station from Metropark; NJ Transit can run an express that would skip a lot of stations between Metropark and Newark-Penn; or (fill in what you like).
I have written more than once to Congress in support of an additional Hudson 2-track rail tunnel.
Except it almost never makes economic sense. This is a question of percentages versus dollars. A railcar is a railcar, and it runs. The capacity is fixed, in the short term. You could fill up the seats with Metropark-NYP passengers, or you could fill up the seats with Metropark-BOS passengers. If you think you can take two short haul pax, Metropark-NYP and NYP-NHV, the margin there will almost certainly exceed one Metropark-BOS passenger. But in most cases the crush load going Metropark-NYP will displace the (lower margin, but higher dollar value) ride from Metropark-PVD or -BOS. Thus, at some point, it makes sense to exclude a customer group (or to price the service in such a way that the dollar value from Metropark-NYP is the same as the dollar value from Metropark-BOS.
There are many models that can be developed to come up with fares for this particular situation. Amtrak's revenue management group has gotten a lot better under Warrington, and is doing some of those things. We hope they succeed.
AEM7
Amtrak must price the longer trips with an eye to competition. There is no real competition for rail from Metropark to NY-Penn (Greyhound, perhaps?) However, PHL-BOS is served by airlines. Amtrak may have to accept a lower margin ticket there to ensure that passengers prefer it to an airline.
Therefore, the short-haul passenger serves an important purpose: to subsidize the longer-haul passenger who, without the subsidy, might end up flying instead.
The short haul passenger can choose levels of service: a cheap commuter ticket, Amtrak Metroliner, or super-deluxe Acela. The Acela is only marginally better in short haul (nicer cabin? Better food? More attractive people riding with you to exchange phone numbers?) but if you're willing to pay the margin, why shouldn't Amtrak take you?
Not necessarily -- the objective here is to maximize revenue, and not ridership. If on the Metropark-BOS leg, Amtrak cannot carry passengers and still make a profit, those people should fly. Of course, "profit" is a loose term; "profit" could include government subsidy, and might even exclude the cost of capital.
Therefore, the short-haul passenger serves an important purpose: to subsidize the longer-haul passenger who, without the subsidy, might end up flying instead.
Cross-subsidy = bad. In general, short-haul passenger don't pay as much "system contribution" as long-haul passenger, but the good thing about short haul passenger is that they are plentiful. So, the optimal strategy is to reserve as many seats for the long-hauls as will generate more system contribution than the short-hauls. There is no real rule of thumb -- it will depend on the actual situation as to what the "passenger mix" (i.e. long v.s. short haul) ought to be.
but if you're willing to pay the margin, why shouldn't Amtrak take you?
Because if Amtrak can make more margin out of a long-haul passenger than a short-haul one, Amtrak should refuse the short-haul passenger with a smaller margin and save that seat for a long-haul passenger who generates a larger margin. On the other hand, if the long-haul passenger does not generate a larger margin, then the seat ought to go empty between NYP-BOS and the Metropark-NYP passenger should be carried instead of the Metropark-BOS one.
AEM7
Agreed. I addressed the ceiling in my post; you are defining the floor in yours. We're still on the same page.
"So, the optimal strategy is to reserve as many seats for the long-hauls as will generate more system contribution than the short-hauls."
Agreed, but, as I pointed out before, Amtrak must still consider its competition. Competition is a basic force in economics, and has a vote here.
"On the other hand, if the long-haul passenger does not generate a larger margin, then the seat ought to go empty between NYP-BOS and the Metropark-NYP passenger should be carried instead of the Metropark-BOS one."
OK. So you want to cede the long distance passenger to the airline if the margin's too low. Amtrak has shown it can more than hold its own if its service is reliable (actually, it manages to hang on to people even when it has problems).
In that case, if Amtrak can establish and keep 3 hour schedules BOS-NYP and 2.5 hour schedules NYP-WAS, then it should do well even if an Amtrak ticket is pricey compared to an airline ticket.
The Acela Express doesn't serve Metropark-NY Penn commuters -- certainly not during any "crush loading" period. The first AE of the day from Metropark to Penn is at 11:20 AM. Amtrak as a whole avoids Metropark going NYC-bound in the AM so that they don't provide commuter service.
Given the difference in price $6.70 one way NJT vs. $41.00 one way AE, I'm doubtful anyone is spending that for the 8-10 minute (scheduled) time savings.
CG
It's not that hard to learn these things before you go off on wild speculation -- www.amtrak.com has all the schedules. Of course, if you want to build an Amtrak NEC layout on your living room floor -- you can stop as many Amtrak trains as you want during the rush hour. (jab, jab).
CG
What does matter is the pricing model between two classes of train services.
There are two Acela Express services that run during the PM rush toward NY. These trains could easily be carrying people who work in Philly and live near Metropark, or reverse commuters or ??
Acela Regional trains stop throughout the day, including the rush. They are still priced higher than commuter rail, and between cities, compete for airline traffic.
So the relevant question is what is going on with Amtrak's pricing scheme.
You need to go back and do your homework again, as usual. :0)
What does matter is the pricing model between two classes of train services."
As I read it, you were discussing the merits and economic value of the Metropark-NYP passenger on Amtrak. My point (however poorly made until this point) is that such a passenger does not exist in any quantity by which you would make economic decisions based on them.
NJT runs trains every 30 minutes that take 30-42 minutes to get to Penn. Amtrak runs 6 trains per weekday that you can take to Penn, and take anywhere from 27-42 minutes to make the trip -- but cost you anywhere from 4-8 times more. The station agent at Metropark will tell you to take NJT if you go to the window and ask to buy an Amtrak ticket. (I lived there for 2+ years).
"There are two Acela Express services that run during the PM rush toward NY. These trains could easily be carrying people who work in Philly and live near Metropark, or reverse commuters or ??"
There's only one. The 5:20 is a Sunday only train.
I have no issues with Metropark's existence as an Amtrak station. Most AE's I take pick up quite a few people there. I just think that both you and Lexcie don't understand how Metropark fits into Amtrak's plans if you're seriously discussing ridership between Metropark and NYP.
CG
I personally like the every train is equally a train approach.
If I want to go from Birmingham New St to Coventry, a single ticket costs £3 (£4.40 First Class). You can then ride the Centro Wolverhampton-Birmingham-Coventry all stops local, the semi-fast Silverlink Birmingham-Coventry-Northampton-London, or the express Virgin WCML Wolverhampton-Birmingham-Coventry-London. All of them cost exactly the same.
If a particular rolling stock costs too much to run, it should be scrapped. You can get 125mph DMUs these days.
You need to go back and do your homework again, as usual. :0)
From posting 579659:
Metropark (Iselin, NJ) is a popular stop for a lot of commuters heading into NYC.
Sure looked like you were discussing the AM rush. Any reasonable person would interpret that sentence to mean that lots of commuters travel from Metropark to NYC, presumably in the AM rush.
Sure looked like you were discussing the AM rush. Any reasonable person would interpret that sentence to mean that lots of commuters travel from Metropark to NYC, presumably in the AM rush.
Actually, no. Crowding on trains can happen at any time between Metropark and NYP, because none of the commuter specials that run during the AM rush operate during the rest of the day. Crowding is worse in the AM rush, but crowding is problematic to an extent that long-haul passengers could be displaced by Metropark-NYP "riders" if there is no price incentive to wait for the infrequent commuter rail service.
As CharlesM pointed out, there *is* a price incentive, and it may or may not be big enough.
AEM7
One of the 6 trains is at about 1:30 AM -- so there are effectively 5 trains that would fit into anyone's "commuting" schedule.
NJT commuter service from Metropark to Penn runs every 30 minutes until 10 PM, and then roughly hourly until about 1:30 AM.
Further, there are only 3 or 4 stations that Amtrak services skip (Rahway, Linden and Elizabeth on all and EWR on some) that most NJT locals make. So the time savings just isn't there. 5-10 minutes, tops.
Of course, if you factor in the frequency with which Amtrak trains coming in to Metropark from D.C. are delayed (sometimes significantly) -- any time savings is completely wiped out, and quite possibly made worse.
CG
But it is not enforced. There are rarely ticket checks beyond Philly for the NYP terminators. The result is that not only do those passengers ride free, they also take up seats, and if the train is full, they might cause annoyance.
So the time savings just isn't there. 5-10 minutes, tops.
Time saving is not the issue here. The issue is that if I were a "commuter" from Metropark, I would take the first train that stops here, whether I had a valid ticket for the train or not, and whatever the train consist happen to be. If it happen to be an Acela Express, then I could be occupying capacity and displacing other passengers (or at least causing discomfort). This practice ought to be stopped, both with a price disincentive (for those who choose to pay for it), and with a ticket examination (for those who do not choose to pay, but board at the "discharge only" stops.
You can read the schedule all you want, but until you go out there and see the operation, you just don't know what's going on.
AEM7
Of course, the result of the ticket examination is either a ticket produced, or a fare (with or without a penalty) paid. Unlike the commuter train, the next stop inbound will be Newark-Penn anyway, so ejecting a passenger is an option which will only cause a public relations headache.
Incidentally, I have ridden Amtrak (Metroliner and Acela Regional) from Newark-Penn to New York Penn when that was the first train available in-bound. These incidents were 5 years ago, approximately. You know what? Once I bought a ticket (I think Amtrak charged me $5 whereas NJT would have been $2.50) and once I got on without one.
The first time, we arrived at Penn without my ticket's collection. I walked off the train, spotted a conductor on the platform, and handed him the payment portion of the ticket. He thanked me, a bit surprised.
The second time (I had no ticket at all), the same thing happened. No request for ticket by the time we arrived. Again, I found the conductor (not the same person as the first time) on the NYP platform, and gave him a $5 bill; he tried to decline, but I insisted, so he punched a receipt for me.
CG
Is NJT still about $2.50 between those two points?
CG
At Metropark, I can confidently report that they are and have been diligent about preventing free-loaders and misguided NJT riders.
CG
Another place where you could do that was on the LIRR at Woodside. Heading into Penn, conductors were lax about picking up tickets; heading out to Port Washington, sometimes you'd think they pretended nobody got on at Woodside.
Another thought: the RonKonKoma Branch is surely the Long Island Subway, as far as the atmosphere on the train goes. Not due to the level of service (good but nowhere near the Babylon Branch TPH count.). No, in a sense, it's like the spiritual child of the Hillside Avenue subway. Both are roughly equivalent in placement on the island of Long, running approximately along the spine of the "fish". The electrification of the branch gave it a more industrial air. And it passes through some hard pressed areas. But it also stops in many major employment centers, both industrial and office. So it is getting used for intra-island travel. The trains get extremely crowded, in the evening especially. Like subways. At Farmingdale, many people on the train are standing at the doors. They have to step outside the train to let the masses exit as there is no room on the train to move away from the doors.
Damn, I fell off topic.
On the discharge only trains, the conductors are always the first ones off -- to make sure nobody is boarding. Often, they only open certain doors at Metropark in order to prevent anyone from boarding.
What you have described in these posts -- first, commuters using Amtrak from Metropark-NYPenn, and now people boarding discharge only trains and taking up space that other passengers need simply does not happen in any meaningful numbers.
CG
No it wouldn't. Anyone who had boarded at any pick-up stop would already have a seat. If there are seats left for anyone going from Metropark to Penn, then quite frankly that's good! Otherwise it's not an unstandable distance.
I hopew the ass hits a signal and screws up the railroad. :)
Mayor Gaynor on the first IRT train.
Mayor Hylan (known as "Red Mike") was a BRT engineer.
Mayor Walker
Mike Quill (also known as "Red Mike," but for a different reason).
Jersey Mike
Quiz: What name doesn't fit?
: ) Elias
He was mayor from 1910-1913, it was McClellan who operated the first IRT train.
The other ones all fit, including the one after West Side Michael Quill. :-)
Peace,
ANDEE
What powered that car on the tour? Was it being pulled by a small steam engine or a manually powered handcar? I've read accounts alleging both.
David
What if the Second Ave subway was built as a LIRR/MN circulator?
Figure it'd have to accomodate both types of equipment, but it might be easier to accomodate LIRR or MN equipment only first, then worry about the other later. It'd also have to have clearance so that as 12 or 25kv catenary could be added at a later time, possibly when the other railroad was added.
The MN would come to the SAS via a new tunnel under the Harlem, and their trains would run down to either brooklyn or queens, taking either a new FRA compatible East River tube, or 63rd St LL (which would be a hell of a turn). LIRR trains would run in from either 63rd st or the East River tunnel, coming from Flatbush Ave (or thereabouts), and then run up to the Bronx via the new Harlem tunnel. There would be provisions for turning at both ends, but through-routing ala SEPTA's Center City connector would be allowed for. All the stops that the current subway SAS calls for would be retained, those MUs should be able to handle the braking and accleration requirements. At peak hours there would be empty MN and LIRR trains run in both directions run right behind the presumably crowded trains headed for the boondocks.
:-) Andrew
E train 3393 speedometer wasn't working still it was the leeding car.
Expect the unexpected in the subway, M trains running lite on the Broadway BMT line in midtown, R trains on the Brighton Line.
> M trains running lite on the Broadway BMT line in midtown
Wanna see confused passengers on CPW? I have one for you:
When I was posting on the M as a C/R, the other side of the bridge was still open. There was a problem in the rathole and we went in service over the bridge and up 6th Ave to 145 Street.
I'm showing my age I suppose ... once upon a time, the EQUIPMENT was more dangerous than the "CUSTOMERS." Heh.
So, who's going to do the Bill Buckner dance in Game 6, if it ever gets that far?
The first two Mets, Hernandez and Backman, were easy outs. I said out loud, "It's going to take a miracle now."
Gary Carter was down to his last strike, then singled.
Kevin Mitchell singled, Carter stopped at second.
Ray Knight singled, Carter scored, Mitchell took third.
Mookie Wilson was batting when a wild pitch scored Mitchell and sent Knight to second. Then came THE DRIBBLER that went through Buckner's legs. Knight scored, the Mets won, and I must have hollered, "CAN YOU BELIEVE IT?!?" at least a dozen times.
IMHO the decline began when they couldn't come to terms with Ray Knight. Then they were one out away from taking a 3-1 lead in the '88 NLCS when Scioscia hit that game-tying dinger off Gooden.
I still think they could have protected Tom Seaver in the free agent compensation draft after the '83 season. He deserved to end his career with the team he is most closely associated with, the Mets. I saw him in person twice at Shea; in fact he pitched when I went there for the first time on the same day you and Linda tied the knot.
At least the Mets retired his number 41. Oh BTW, do you know who the only other Met to have worn 41 was?
Once again you are ignoring the transit-related news of the day in favor of other stuff.
October 8, 1955, was the day of the ceremony marking the end of steam locomotive use on the LIRR.
They don't need C/Rs since the doors won't be opened.
Yes, they will have two T/Os to make moves quicker.
The IND World's Fair line never connected to Corona yard; it terminated southeast of Horace Harding Boulevard and Rodman Street (now the Long Island Expressway and College Point Boulevard). It would have had to cross the LIRR tracks to connect with Corona. Yes, the ROW is now the Van Wyck Expressway.
Once again, what matter of the shoe beams and third rail??!
It was IIRC, a gapping in ONE PLACE, where the 142s could not reach the rail. It was an ERROR of third rail alignment that has LONG SINCE BEEN CORRECTED!
: ) Elias
"This is a World Trade Center Station-bound E train. The next stop is 34th Street-Penn Station. Stand clear of the closing doors."
Any time frame, or are you still in the early stages of starting?
15500 @station(23rd St.-Ely Ave,12.0505,12.0520,1,ats,\southbound E\23rd_dep.wav)
It is a little more than half way through the file. Change the line to read:
15500 @station(23rd St.-Ely Ave,12.0505,12.0520,1,ats,\southbound E\ely_dep.wav)
Basically all you're doing is changing the "23rd_dep.wav" to the "ely_dep.wav" file.
This will solve your problem. I made the change about two months ago when I first installed the E line on my computer.
Is this possible in real life?
Newsday story
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/columnists/nyc-tunnel1008,0,6458507.story?coll=ny-nycnews-featured
The R62A is my favorite car class, and I'd hate for my (7) to lose them. It will be cool to see some R142As on the line, though.
:-) Andrew
Can 62's and 142's be mixed and matched?
R-32.
Then, there was the 4-car consist of R142 cars I spotted on the DTT. Never saw the 6-car consist.
R-32.
#8667 S 63rd Street Shuttle
Arug?
Just a thought out of curiosity...
I am calm, and I haven't implied the people who claimed all this are liars unless you can prove to me otherwise. I don't have any animosity towards these people, though. Many people have a pattern of posting stuff on here and making it suddenly as truth. I being up a famous thread no one will probably forget. That dumb 'R110B on the C' thread. God, that was neverending.
Give them the benefit of the doubt, and see what happens this weekend.
Sure, if they have proof.
If it pans out, great. It would mean that we have individuals here who are well connected and are happy to share their knowledge.
Or maybe they made an incredibly good guess.
If it doesn't pan out, heh heh heh, the rumor posters are never gonna hear the end of it, and they will lose all credibility. I will make sure of it.
I'll hold you to that promise. I will make sure of it.
That's not the right attitude. Giving someone the benefit of the doubt implies that there is some doubt, which means that there can't be solid evidence.
Or maybe they made an incredibly good guess.
Yeah, ok, like at least 3 different people all decided to guess the same thing....I don't think so. Get real.
What a way to contradict oneself.
Yeah, ok, like at least 3 different people all decided to guess the same thing....I don't think so. Get real.
Your point is? My points as opposed to yours are better standing. Many people who are thinking against these rumors are lot more reasonable-sounding these these people who come out with a claim with no backing whatsoever. Of course, you're free to believe them.
Peace,
ANDEE
If he did that, on a train, he'd be arrested. What a strange looking dude. (my apologies to people w/o broadband access, you have to see this guy to believe it)
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert
Otherwise, a R33/36 single or an R62A single can fill the rest.
Robert
For the Ultimate Riders, I will email you some details and other matters.
Dtrain22, you have to attend, just show up and I will see to it that you get in.
This is our shining moment, let's make it happen. And a huge THANK YOU for all the other SubTalkers who supported us during the filming.
Kool-D, all you are required to do is die and pay taxes. I think what you meant to say is that all of the Ultimate Riders are invited to attend.
We will be in the V.I.P. seating area...This is our shining moment, let's make it happen.
Kool-D, you haven't seen the video yet, so I can understand your enthusiasm, but most of the rest of us agree that you were all wronged. (See my previous posts for the reasons why.) As such, I don't think you owe NY Times TV any favors, but if you do decide to participate in the Q&A, I think you should use your time in the spotlight to correct the many errors in the video (related to the Ultimate Ride segments), and also to convey your displeasure (if that is how you feel after seeing the video).
IMO, a director who shows a film should be able to answer most comtemporary questions and should not rely on what us Subtalkers know. I will ask a consensus between me, 1SF9, R30, Dtrain22, Christopher Rivera, skfny and Mrs. skfny if we should go on stage and do this.
I am not trying to control this matter, I was asked to relay information from the NY Times/TV production crew. My apologies to anyone who thinks I am in control of the situtation.
This was a railfan that did that?? I think vandal is more like it.
(I drove today. I would have gotten here earlier but those darn railfans on the Belt once again created a traffic jam at Coney Island Yard. It happens every time.)
The first batch of exams were copied yesterday. I'll take care of the second and third as the day progresses.
Vandals have intent to destroy property, I did not have that intent, nor I would anticipate the result.
Too soon for new leadership, I was never a quitter. HAHA!
What proof, photos? There are plenty of free websites like imagestation.com and MSNgroups (neither of which have annoying pop-up adds or bandwidth limits, and unlimited storage), and you can remote post the photos with either. Webshots I believe is also free and you can post links (but not remote post photos), but that's still okay, so get to it R30!
Now for the reason I posted this. Does a film crew have the legal right to physically block pedestrian traffic on a public street at 2 PM in the afternoon?
Maybe, but was it your place to decide that?
No, but I was acting on anger at being told I was not allowed to use a public street. I'd do it again.
Had that been the case, and had that automobile come barrelling down at you, you would have been at risk. And, assuming they had all the proper permits, it would have been your own fault if you got hurt, because you ignored warnings not to enter the street.
As a teenager, I once left my 3-wheeled bike locked to a small treenear a fish market in West Los Angeles. WhenI came back I found a crew filming an episode of "Starsky and Hutch." David Soul's character had just finished punching out a bad guy in a car, and a "Metropolitan Police" cruiser rolled up right next to my bike with it's red lights on. The "officers" got out and walked around my bike to go pick up the bad guy. They did several "takes" of this while I watched. After the crew wrapped up, I unlocked my bike and rode home.
I actually managed to locate and watch that episode. The editing process (or maybe they reshot the scene) eliminated my bike. I didn't see it anywhere.
Oh well.
You ask this AFTER you walked across 58th Street?
LOL
There are if the street or sidewalk is closed. Ever walk into an open trench?
Movie Shoot on the Manhattan bound roadway of the Brooklyn Bridge
There will be a movie shoot on the Manhattan bound roadway of the Brooklyn Bridge, on the following dates/times:
10PM-5AM Sunday, October 5 through Wednesday, October 8
10PM-5AM Monday, October 13 through Tuesday, October 14.Manhattan bound traffic will be diverted to the Manhattan or Williamsburg Bridges during the times listed above.The bridge will be open to Brooklyn-bound traffic at all times. Pedestrian and bicycle traffic will have access to the walkway at all times for the duration of the shoot, except for intermittent holds for picture and safety.
You also get to demonstrate your courtesy and consideration for others, and your common sense.
In general:
If you cross a barricade without permission, then one of the following could happen:
1) You could get hurt by a movie stunt, in which case it will be your own fault
2) Your presence could cause an injury to others, in which case the movie studio could sue you and win damages from you.
3) You could receive a summons or be arrested for trespassing
Deep Throat, Part II
They also take up blocks and blocks of curbside parking. If you read the dreaded no-parking signs carefully, you'll see that leaving a car parked at the film site isn't actually illegal -- the car will be towed to another space but it won't be ticketed, since it's parked legally. Watch out, though -- they'll tow cars anywhere. I once watched the NYPD tow truck drop off a car alongside a hydrant, and when I protested, the driver insisted that the owner of the car wouldn't be ticketed. (He didn't seem to understand that I was protesting on safety grounds, not on ticket grounds.) And, although the tow truck driver does keep a log of where he dumps the cars, he makes an occasional error. A few months ago, my mother "lost" her car for a day and a half because two digits of the address were transposed. The car was five blocks from where the log said it would be, a full eight blocks from the film site. Even HBO had given up, and my mother had filed a stolen car report with the NYPD (and was looking into the possibility of suing HBO and/or the NYPD).
There was a humongous train yard one block to the east! See, I added transit content! :)
The trouble with posting is you can't see facial expression.
You got me but good!
Peak hours are 7:00-10:00 A.M. and 4:00-7:00 P.M., so street closure permits are typically for 10:00 A.M.-4:00 P.M.
Speaking of filming, The Manchurian Candidate with Denzel Washington has been shooting around Penn Station. The crew was allowing pedestrians through, but "don't look at the cameras."
Thats because Expresses totally rock ;).
But seriously I took a J train from Jamaica Center to Chambers and I'll never do it again!! GIMME EXPRESS BABY! Since I was going downtown I figured I'd take the J since it goes directly there. I learned never to under estimate the QB Express!! ALL HAIL!!
Unless your destination is a local stop.
Then, do the same thing again via Queens Boulevard, and then let me know what you get, and what the difference is.
Elias
The idea of express trains is to bring in far-out poeple, and to provide greater capacity on the trunk lions.
If you want a really serious fast express ride, check out my Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Express! It has a seven-mile non-stop express run on new lines and equipment runing at 75 mph.
Elias
I dont know if I can endure it again. Good thing its above ground. Even my friends called me and was like "you're STILL on the train?!"
The (J) train takes 49 minutes from Jamaica Center to Chambers Street.
The (E) train takes 44 minutes from Jamaica Center to Chambers Street.
(From published schedules on the MTA Website)
PS: the same approximate trip will take about 10 minutes on the Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway.
Elias
See? And the E route is longer! ;)
And your point is?
My point is if you are waiting at Jamaica Center, you will make the best time (to Chambers Street) by taking the first train out.
The (E) is 21 stops, the (J) is 17 stops when skip stop is in effect or 25 stops when it is not. The times I quoted were for NON-skip-stop service.
The time for the (J) Jamaica Center to Chambers Street when Skip Stop is in effect is 44 minutes, EXACTLY the same as the (E).
Elias
That sounds like a classic argument to ride the E train then get off anywhere between 42nd St and Canal St and wait on the same platform for the C train.
I guess but taking the J to Broadway Junction is a more direct and shorter route. Going to mManhattan or Downtown Bk is one thing. But Franklin Ave and east to Broadway Junction along the A/C, its better to take the J.
It would be really so much easier if the Fulton St Line were still an El.
Why do you say that?
Why do you say that?
Well, the J/Z is on an El and the A/C is in Subway. A/C to J/Z will therefore be a bit of a climb!
Having said that, the Dual Contracts eliminated the possibility of even transferring from Fulton St (Jamaica Line) to Fulton St (Fulton St Line), so the El for most of its life was just as crap.
But in rush hour, the E train is timetabled to take more than 44 minutes.
For instance:
Jamaica Center 0859
Chambers - WTC 0949
That's 50 minutes on the E train at the only time the J train takes 44 minutes. That's a 6 minute advantage on the J and Z.
Very true. Too bad the Hillside Express isn't in regular service. I caught one of those rare E's from 179th st, and we flew past 169th st ;) It sorta went slow after parsons though :(
You do realize that the J to Chambers and the E to Chambers is the same runtime, right?
And yet the E line is longer. The perception is better. In 30 mins on the E im at manhattan already. On the J, maybe Broadway Junction.
Well on the F train from 179th st it takes bout 30-35 mins to get to 42nd st.
Time it yourself, or simply consult the schedule.
Let's try that again.
On the F, 30 minutes will get you to Queensbridge. On the E, 30 minutes will get you to about 23rd-Ely. On the J/Z, 30 minutes will get you past Myrtle, about halfway to Marcy.
Ok I forgot I still had an old digital watch with a stop watch feature. The next time I happen to use the F train, (if I remember to bring it with me), I'll start it once the train starts moving. I'll stop time A at 30 mins and note where I am. Then stop time B when I get to 42nd. Hopefully the train won't be held for any reason.
Say you're checking average ages of people in a room. The average age is 35, but you discover that there are plenty of babies and plenty of old codgers in the room. The standard deviation there would be quite high. On the other hand, at a birthday party for 100 people who turned 35 this month, the standard deviation would be ver low.
You haven't been shortchanged. Standard deviation (defined mathematically; Ron gave a good layman's explanation) is a moderately diffuclt concept in Probability Theory and has never been part of a standard high school math curriculum in any jursidiction.
I was actually able to teach a 7 year old the basics of statistics and he demonstrated that he learned it b solving a couple of simple problems I gave him.
It's not too difficult. It's just the jackassed way they tell you to do it at first (until you realise/are told there's a nice neat formula) that makes it time-consumingly boring.
However, the boredom prize must go to the Pearson Product Moment Correlation Coefficient, r (dont ask me to even write out the formula!).
I am not surprised.
By the way, do you know how to add time formatted numbers in Excel - eg 10:20:30+00:06:00. I know the answer is 10:26:30, but I can't get the damn program to do it!
Most spreadsheet programs represent time as a fraction between 0 and 1. To convert to this fraction you must use the time function. You can set the numerical format to show the result as: hh:mm:ss or some other format.
BTW, calendar days are represented by integers from some 0 reference point. That way a timestamp can be derived which is a decimal number, with the integer part representing the date and the fractional part representing the time of day.
The fairly simple concept is that estimates and predictions can be wrong. Standard deviation is a measure of how good or bad such estimates and predictions are.
The concept that predictions or estimates can be wrong is highly subversive at the high school level. That's why it is not part of the high school math curriculum. :-)
One California legislator actualy said that about 30 years ago during a debate about an education bill.
Also, it's not the definition. It's only a derived result, useful for computational purposes, that obscures the concept.
Better:
Let mu = mean of the observations x sub i.
Now take the sum over all observations of (x sub i - mu)^2.
Now divide that sum by the number of observations and take the square root.
Still the ultimate crib sheet is a spreadsheet. Excel really does away with even the simplest things, like having to know how even to work out a mean.
Just kidding, just kidding, I DO NOT advocate cheating...
AIM: almost correct, but unless you are going to time every single trip for a year, you need to divide the sum by the number of observations minus one.
In fact, you really need mean and "Standard Error", which is the standard deviation divided by the square root of the number of observations that made up the mean. Think of it as margin of error. Once you have J mean and J standard error, and E mean and E standard error, here is what you do:
Take the smaller mean, ADD twice the value of the standard error to it, lets call this X (it should be 1.96 rather than twice, but lets keep things simple)
Take the larger mean, SUBTRACT twice the value of the standard error from it, lets call this Y
If X is smaller than Y, then we can conclude that there is a "statistically significant" difference between the original two means.
NB "statistically significant" does not necessarily mean exciting, merely that we can be reasonably confident that the difference between the means is a true reflection of reality. If the standard errors are small enough, a difference in mean travel times of one minute might be statistically significant, but who cares!
You have to watch doctors with this one. Small improvements in life expectency might be statistically significant, but the side effects of the treatment might be so debilitating that people might prefer not to have the treatment.
Sorry about the lecture, but its what I do for a living.
No, I'm correct in the context I was referring to. I defined the standard deviation of a population. I wasn't getting into the issue of taking a sample.
You are referring to the estimator of a population's standard deviation used when you look at a sample of the entire population and want to estimate the population's standard deviation from the sample. I agree that you are correct in the context of the original question, though.
It's what I do for a living too.
Seeing as I have an A-level in the subject, there is every likelihood I'd write a very wrong equation and not notice until I tried to work something out using it. ;-)
(Hey, it's one step above GCSE level: write a very wrong equation and not know enough Maths to notice it's wrong, even when the answer is a complex number!)
E(x2) is fine, but E(x)2 needs to be divided by N
In fact, looking at the equation again, its just the square root of the sum of squares. It would have to be divided by the square root of something or other (N or degrees of freedom) to work.
Or am I getting confused by the limited graphics potential of web browsers?
James is doing probability, not statistics.
E is expectation, and already has incorporated dividing by N.
Here's the proof.
Say mu = E(X).
Var(X) = (by definition) E[(X-mu)^2] =
E(X^2 - 2 mu X + mu^2) =
E(X^2) - 2 mu E(X) + mu^2 =
E(X^2) - 2 mu^2 + mu^2 =
E(X^2) - mu^2 =
E(X^2) - {E(X)]^2
Exactly. You're thinking statistics. James and I were doing probability. In probability books, the formula James came up with is of major importance.
Of course, since the original question had to do with taking a sample of train times to try to estimate the actual mean time, we should have been doing statistics, not probability.
You mean there actually is a system?
Don't set anyone a task that might be too difficult for anyone in the room.
Don't tell anyone in the room whether they were correct or not, just congratulate them all for trying really hard.
You're doing fine. You have some good company here on Subtalk. Go to the archives and look at Stephen Baumann's mathematical posts. They are quite elegant and explain theory very nicely.
Its that mentality why so many people pack themselves like sardines into the E most of the J. The J gets crowded during the rush but not nearly as close.
I remember railfanning with someone a while back and a guy approached us about teh J, asking if it went to Jamaica. He asked how long, and we told him. Then he asked "Express or Local?" When we told him local, he was sorely disappointed, despite stating that it took no longer than the E would.
Oh well, as long as people think like this it leaves more room for me on the C, R, the 1 and the 6 when I go to work.
Yes, it's always nice to get a seat on the local because of silly people who flock to an express which won't save them any time. Unfortunately, IRT passengers tend to not be very silly. Whenever I get on a mostly empty SB 1 at 86th, an express goes by at the same time -- in other words, the local only empties out if it actually connects with an express.
Not from 42nd to 14th in either morning or afternoon rush hour.
Often not in other cases as well.
That's strange, I always found that section to be quite quick. Granted I haven't been a regular rider of that section for about 7 years, but I rode there everyday for about 3 years, and always found the speed pretty decent there.
You rode the 4/5 every day for 3 years from 42nd to 14th in the rush hour and never experienced the joys of creeping from 33rd to 14th and watching locals pass you by?
You have an extraordinary level of good luck that you ought to try to sell somehow.
Often it's just congestion at Union Square, i.e., long dwell time combined with the 20 seconds necessary to extend and retract the moving platforms.
I've ridden lots of expresses that crawled from 42nd to 14th, but then moved full speed from 14th to BB.
I've ridden lots of expresses that crawled from 42nd to 14th, but then moved full speed from 14th to BB.
The time required to extend and retract the moving platforms is closer to 12 seconds than 20 seconds. I have come to this conclusion by measuring and comparing the stopping and starting times for express trains along the Lex. This includes not only the actuation time but also the extra time a T/O would take to make sure he stopped at the correct spot for actuating the gap fillers.
As a point of comparison. The average time from when a train enters a station until the doors open (what I call stopping time) averages 30.98 seconds at Grand Central and 31.07 seconds at Union Sq. The average time from when a train starts moving until the last signal within the station changes to a yellow aspect (what I call starting time) is 38.19 seconds at Grand Central and 49.13 seconds at Union Sq. The net difference between these two stations is 11.03 seconds.
The starting time could be reduced by 10 to 15 seconds, if both Union Sq and Grand Central had a 20 mph timer aspect in addition to the straight yellow on the signal within the station platform. This practice is used at both 125th and 59th Streets. This reduces the average starting time at 125th from 46.11 down to 36.33 seconds and the averge starting time at 59th from 41.96 down to 25.19 seconds. The target for both starting and stopping times being 25-30 seconds for 40 tph operation.
There are many explanations for why there may seem to be congestion at Union Sq. However, I'd prefer to make measurements before I make any conclusions as to its cause.
From 168th all the way to Euclid, the C takes about 10 minutes longer than the A.
A Division expresses do tend to be relatively fast. In Manhattan, the 4/5 saves about 10 minutes over the 6 and the 2/3 saves about 8 minutes over the 1/9.
Bu your decision-making is optimal. If the express comes first, by all means get on. If not, don't bother waiting if a local is already there and inviting you.
Locals don't stop for very long at each station (unless they're overcrowded). If you could save 6 minutes bypassing 7 stations, you'd be doing much better than average, which is about half a minute per station.
Incidentally, notice that, due to the multitude of switches between 125th and 145th, the local makes better time than the express, despite the intermediate stop.
Yes, the grade timers are there for a legitimate reason.
I guess I'll content myself with wishful Subtalk thinking on that (since I don't have a HO set with which to do it). :0)
I think that once they leave the terminal they don't really pay attention to the schedule. That is moreso important on Bus routes and commuter rail lines. The time I recorded is typical. I generally always arrive at 42nd street in 35 minutes from 179th street, unless we are held for a while at a signal. I was really thinking "what in the world!" when I was told on here that it takes 30 minutes to get to Roosevelt Ave, or 21st Street.
That sounds distinctly like they were looking at a midnight schedule.
This was about 5PM on Saturday. Sure I can repeat the experiment a few more times.
It's called rush hour because lots of people are in a rush, not because the trains actually move faster. The trains typically move as fast as they can, and that's generally a bit faster off-peak.
Assuming that no track work is being performed off-peak, which is usually the only time it can be done. A few weeks ago I got stuck on an E crawling through Queens at 9:30 PM because of track work. The hapless commuter gets stuck either way these days, it seems.
A good example of trains scheduled to run more slowly in the rush-hour is on the southbound Lexington express.
The #4 train leaving 125th Street at 7:00 is scheduled to arrive at Bowling Green at 7:24.
The #4 train leaving 125th Street at 9:00 is scheduled to arrive at Bowling Green at 9:32.
The delays are attributed to a number of factors including, of course, longer dwell times.
No problem. I haven't mentioned that most of my trips are during off peak times.
Alas, it went into the dumpster when the 70's fiscal crisis occurred.
Also, what's that logo in the sign panel?
Wayne
Go to the link and you'll find that the rumor was apparently false.
Regards,
Jimmy
Photos taken at Springfield, along the Boston Line and at Boston South Station.
http://palter.org/~brotzman/08-17-03_SPRINGFIELD_TRIP/
And the tower related photos:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/?M=D
And some teasers:
Here is the best pic I took. It is Amtrak Train 449 with TOWER 96 in the background.
Here's some hot intermodal action heading through CP-98
Here is Amtrak Metroliner Cab Car 9640 getting a well deserved bath.
Here is the closed front of Springfield Union Station.
Here are one of the twin-stack GRS SA seatchlight signals with its attached 'C' signal to give super-clear aspects.
Springfield seems to have a lot of railroads, but it's a shame the old Union Pacific doesn't come by there anymore.
Well, here's a couple I can think of at the moment:
The Monorail episode with Lyle Langley is priceless.
Some others include the passby of the Union Pacific railroad when Lisa was reporting otherwise. Interestingly enough, Union Pacific has made other appearanced on the Simpsons. An older episode when Homer prohibited Bart from watching the 'Itchy and Scratchy Movie' had one. It was a scene of the movie when Itchy was trying to run over Scratchy. He tries to jump in a nearby steam locomotive but gets kicked out repeatedly. He then goes to engineers' school, graduates and takes a job at Union Pacific. :)
The other reference is that so-so 'Simpsons Tall Tales' episode where the family rides on a UP train (heading to which state again?) to see where JcPenney's sends their damaged merchandise. :) A hobo tells them stories.
Probably the most unusual one occured in a very recent episode when Bart's treehouse apparently collapses and Homer helps in rebuilding it. He gets wood...where: railroad tracks of course. As he's pulling them out, Bart questions his doing it but Homer says a train will never come...yeah right! ;) One does come, a passenger train, it appears leaps off the tracks, flips several times and finally lands without a hitch! I think I remember the end of train having a caboose. Aren't cabooses only associated with freight trains or is that a common sight on passenger lines?
the Standards lasted from 1915-65 (50 years) Some to '69.
Don't forget the R32, which may one day hold a all-time longitvity for NYCT cars.
Don't forget the Qs, some built as Brooklyn Union gate cars as early as 1903, also ran as late as 1969.
Even the R-10s lasted "only" 29 years on the A, if you don't include occasional sightings in later years.
The seller claims that it came from BMT Standards. Based on the car up at Shoreline, I thought the numbers for the Standards were painted on.
This appears to be signs that are similar to number boards that were used by the TA starting with the R-16 series. The only series that match those #'s are the R-68's but from pictures on this site, the fonts used for the 68's are different.
Any ideas?
Disclaimer: I am not associated with the seller and will not be bidding on the item. I'm just curious.
Thanks
Seriously, they did run with modern numberboards later in life.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?26209
Oh btw the r-16 numbers were 6300 to 6499
and the 68's never used those those type of plates
Also guys the current high bidder is a Branfordite, so let's all
wish him luck in this venture. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
In my memory, numbers of the Standards, Triplexes and Multis had number plates, while others had painted numbers right to the end.
Having a number plate meant they didn't have to go to the trouble of washing off the painted numbers.
Photo 1: My train is humming along, making pretty good time, we get delayed about 5 minutes due to a late running northbound Vermonter, but its still cool.
We continue on at track speed zipping through Windsor and Windsor Locks before heading into Hartford and passing HART aka SS214, tower.
Well we make the Hartford station stop and begin to accelerate briskly. We round a curve outside of town when we encounter a bunch of tie fragments placed on the tracks by a group of kids. We hit the fragments, there is a loud report and a large shudder, but we remain railed. Shortly thereafter the engineer is having trouble getting the engine to load. We roll on for a mile or so before comming to a stop right after an interlocking. The engineer leaves his compartment in the Metroliner Cab Car and I snap this picture. Not Amtrak's really cool position light cab signal display unit, currently showing an Approach Medium.
Well, the trouble is soon spotted. The impact knocked loose one of the MU jumper cables and while it draged and bounced along on the trackbed the head was stripped off. Note: the sandal is on the foot of one of the many hippies that were using this train to return from a retreat.
Luckly, we had a really on-the-ball conductor who came up with the following idea. The next northbound train would discharge at Meriden, we would pull in and discharge. The northbound passengers would board our train and head to Springfield with the engine pulling in the front. Southbound pasengers would board the other train and it would go south with its undamaged cab-car. To do this we had to run with the engineer in the rear facing engine at speeds no faster than 30 mph. It took about an extra 10-15 minutes in addition to the 10-15 it took to find the problem after the impact. Here is the swap train pulled a small distance north of the Meriden Station on the controlled siding.
I was getting off at Meriden so I don't know what happened after this.
Similarly, are there any closed stations on NJT's NECL? (I know of a few on the North Jersey Coast Line) Or the Raritan Valley Line (I know of one on the RVL - Calco) And any NJT track maps?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Pavonia Yard, right? I think I saw that on my trip from Trenton to Newark in August 2001 (Lucky I didn't postpone it). Didn't see South Elizabeth, but I was probably gagging from an unexplainable stench in the car I was riding. It smelled like dirty diapers, but no one in our car had babies with them, and we smelled it from New Brunswick to just after Rahway... where I DID see a Long Branch train go past.
This was long before they built Hamilton station.
Now they need another station to take the pressure off Princeton Junction from the northern side, before the PJ parking lots take over the rest of West Windsor!
John
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Some NEC abandoned stations
South Street- South of Newark
South Elizabeth
North Rahway
Colonia
Iselin
Adams?
Deans
Monmouth Junction
Lawrence?
Eggman: Very infomative post. Thank you. Also add to list of abandoned stations
Manhattan Transfer
Menlo Park MP25.4
Morrisville MP 59.5
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Calco is not closed, it was renamed "Bridgewater". And with the stadium and shopping center right there, the station is not even close to closing down!
Other abandoned stations include Manhattan Transfer near Hudson tower north of Harrison. This station had no street exit; it was where the PRR changed from DC electric locomotives (pre-AC catenary) to steam power and was a transfer point to Hudson & Manhattan trains until the present Newark station opened in the late 1930s.
Also to be mentioned is Plainsboro station, 1.5 miles north of Princeton Junction. This station closed in the early 1950s but part of the platforms remained until track reconstruction in the past couple of decades obliterated them.
Princeton Junction is a through station that has a shuttle on the side. The shuttle never operates on the main line in revenue service.
Jersey Avenue is a put-in station for the NE Corridor line. Trains originate there in the morning, and terminate there in the evening. This helps deal with the load from (especially) Edison and Metropark, without having to send every train to Trenton.
The service is entirely NYC-Commuter oriented: the station is in an industrial zone, no-one is going to walk there.
The reason that there’s a low-level platform southbound is that it serves the commuters coming back late from the city.
John
I don't know the exact situation there but I'd bet you're wrong. On Long Island plenty of people take the trains to towns along the Mainline to go to work. And by and large they walk from the station. You see that at Mineola, Hicksville, Farmingdale, Deer Park. D.P. is completely surrounded by industrial parks. You should see the crowds waiting for trains there in the afternoon. Same for the other stations I mentioned.
Maybe the difference is that New Brunswick (which is is close, and I think a lot of peoploe walk there.
John
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My bulkhead curtains are set to A-Wash. Hts 207th St.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Regards,
Jimmy
1689's a "gotta ride" though ... she's SWEET! :)
#3 West End Jeff
7 FLUSHING LOCAL
7 TO HUNTERS POINT AV
ENJOY! TO THOSE WHO GO
Another rumor says(for your info) that once CTBC is fully installed on the 7 the whole fleet will become R-142
I posted a few days ago a swap was going on between Corona and 240 but no one wanted to believe it. Blah.
Now as to your question as to why the R-62a's were sent to the 7 line and not the R-142 series? Simple, Corona Yard cannot handle the R-142's completely, it cannot fix the HVAC units if they broke down. On the Mainline you have Unionport and Westchester Yards that can fix the HVAC units. Corona as of now cannot, so until the new Corona Yard is ready in 2005 or the new Sunnyside Maintanice Facility is built and operational by 2007-2010, it wouldn't be pretty for the R-142 series and the riders. The R-62a is a temporary situation eventhough they got new stickers, expect them to be around for 1 to 2 years more then be transffered to another line. My sources are several individuals in the MTA to which I won't say their names on the condition of anonomity.
David
David
During cruises, the US Navy has sailors perform maintenance constantly on ships. But when ships get old enough, they undergo SLEP (Service Life Extension Program). Now, a big part of this is adding a lot of new equipment (new radars, electronics, weapons, etc. - ) But some of it is fundamentally intended to keep the ship seaworthy.
Subway cars may ultimately need an extensive overhaul if they're kept inservice long enough, esp. if t is decided to refit rather than buy new.
David
Glossary of Subway Terminology and Abberviations
There are a few places where "UK" circuits have been installed.
This has nothing to do with across the pond...the U is the TA
signal nomenclature letter for a timer relay. These signals
work like the typical IND automatic key-by signals, but after
crossing the joint, there is a time delay of 10 seconds or
so before the arm drives. This absolutely enforces a complete
stop at the red signal before keying-by.
its more like 8-13 feet.
Homeballs and BMT manual-keys are 3 feet from the arm/IJ
Might I suggest you try BVE? It's not point and click like MSTS, but if you're just a little bit computer savy you could cobble together a few fantasy routes from pieces of other people's routes. Much of the system is either done or in the process of being simulated in BVE thanks to Subtalker Acela's team. Admittedly you can't simulate anythime but certainly if you wanted to make the rolling stock to simulate a given era, I'm sure your efforts would be most welcomed.
I prefer BAHN myself, version 3.81 just came out, and it provides a much more satisfying whole-system simulation. I don't get a whole lot of enjoyment out of leaping from stop to stop in BVE, but to watch my newest fantasy transit system spring to life on my computer with everything functioning perfectly is certainly a small source of pride to me. Plus in BAHN you can download the NYCTA layouts and make all sorts of crazy train lines, maybe a P, Sea Beach Express to 205th in the Bronx, or the new Z, Jamaica to Jamaica via the Jamaica El 6th Ave Local and Queens Blvd Local. Heck, I've had Brother Elia's incarnation of the SAS running on my laptop for the past year, no DEIS or anything! Right now I'm working on a 1944 Philadelphia PTC layout, from the height of Philly's trolley system, maybe I'll finish it some year...
Just be sure that if you decide to make the "fantasy routes" public, get permission from the "other people."
For more information, check out http://www.railsimroutes.co.uk/developerguidelines/
I agree!!!
Plus in BAHN you can download the NYCTA layouts and make all sorts of crazy train lines, maybe a P, Sea Beach Express to 205th in the Bronx, or the new Z, Jamaica to Jamaica via the Jamaica El 6th Ave Local and Queens Blvd Local.
:-D there are a few niggles I have with the NYC layouts (such as one particularly good one spectacularly puts Roosevelt Island station off Roosevelt Island in the East River and also gets the two levels of Nostrand/Fulton the wrong way up). I'd quite like to get round to making a layout of all the lines in NYC circa 1922, plus a fantasy layout built on that era.
I particularly enjoy building new service patterns. My current favourite is splitting A trains - 10 car R32s every 6 minutes 207th St to Rockaway Blvd, then the rear 4 cars to Lefferts, front 6 cars to Broad Channel, then front 4 to Far Rockaway, rear 2 to Rockaway Park. :-D
I've had Brother Elia's incarnation of the SAS running on my laptop for the past year, no DEIS or anything!
Bet mine's better! And I have my second Queens Express!
Right now I'm working on a 1944 Philadelphia PTC layout, from the height of Philly's trolley system, maybe I'll finish it some year...
I'll be very interested to fiddle with that when you release it (hope it's soon!!!)! My current built from scratch nearly finished project is a fantasy VAL system for Birmingham, UK. I'm now messing around with trying to create a 7 day schedule (by using dummy cars, signals and alternating points to set days sequentially).
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert
Metro-North also prints their own schedules. Been doing it for years.
Senseless duplicatory waste... why not print one schedule with two logos on it?
I picked one up in Hoboken Terminal last Saturday. "Port Jervis & Pascack Valley Lines", Sept 6, 2003.
Click Here For Star-Ledger Article
CI will not be finished. The F and Q trains will be subject to line picks.
What is the start date?
Also the W will be cut down the serive from Queens to Whiehall St during the weekdays only, and the V will still be doing what it dose now. The W will still be out of CIY from what I have deen hearing, so they might get the slant 40, since they only run them on the Weekened anyway.
Robert
Ah, but what about weekends? The W currently runs through the Montague, and therefore stops at DeKalb. The D won't run through the Montague. But will it stop at DeKalb? If it does, there's potential congestion with D, N, and Q all stopping on the express track at Dekalb. If it doesn't, 6th Ave passengers bound for the Brighton Line have no same platform transfer. They have to walk from Pacific to Atlantic.
This pick is looking better and better evry day, if this is what happens.
Robert
The announced plan is for the N to run over the bridge on weekends, then go local from Prince to 57th, then continue to Astoria.
Kool-D has a good suggestion: N skips Dekalb on weekends (since Brighton riders have the Q to get from Broadway to Brighton) but D (and of course R and Q) stops there.
Robert
Unless something has changed, that is.
According to the proposal announced by NYCT, the Q will run 24/7 from 57th/7th to CI (or equivalent shorter destination) via the Brighton Line. The B runs Concourse/145th to Brighton Beach (express on Brighton Line) weekdays only.
If you really have heard differently from a reliable source, they have changed the proposal in a major way.
Nope. Look at the track maps. On weekends, only the Q could be routed through the tunnel instead of the N, and that would cause more interference with other trains.
What's "insufficient"?
The people between City Hall and Lawrence St won't have any trouble getting on a train once it comes; they'll just have to wait 0 to 8 minutes for a train instead of 0 to 5 minutes if the N ran via the tunnel too.
In contrast, 4th Ave riders save 8 minutes by the N going over the bridge.
So where is the total benefit (in person-hours of time saved) greater? I think it's by sending the N over the bridge.
Newsday story
URL at http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/manhattan/nyc-suit1009,0,7723025.story?coll=nyc-manheadlines-manhattan
Amtrak invests in maintenance
URL at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10062003.shtml#Amtrakorders
Peace,
ANDEE
Look at their R46 cousins, those have a stainless steel waistband, and they're completely devoid of all rust.
That's because they are stainless steel. The SIRTOA R-44's or MUE-2's had carbon steel belt lines, but they were replaced with stainless steel ones on their last GOH at Coney Island shops. The NYCT R-44's didn't opt for that.
Bill "Newkirk"
Coming back it was a near miss. Boarded R38 #4022 on the "A".
Trust me. To have traveled round trip and not board an R44 at all is a very rare occasion for me.
R-32.
#8667 S 63rd Street Shuttle
UMM, about 9 feet shorter, about 1 foot narrower, I would imagine.
Peace,
ANDEE
But if they were that short, wouldn't they be stainless steel flatcars? :)
also, I heard on another post that St. Louis had planned to build the 36 in stainless steel, but didn't have the patent from Budd yet...
R-32.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Bear with me here:
What if there was a way to get some of the PATH trains to come off the NEC at some point, burrow their way to Rt 124, and then head out that, either on an El in the middle of the road, or possibly buried below it, either in a subway/median cut ala the current plan for the Roosevelt Ave Subway, or completely submerged. It could run along 124 for like 3-4 stations, out to the Garden St Parkway or so, where a new park and ride could be built (I know, appealing to the commuters, but you kinda gotta if you wanna get anything built), along with a bus interchange system. It could be later extended to I-78, where a similar park and ride and bus interchange could be built.
So what do you think? Am I a crackpot? A charletan? Is it DOA by NIMBY? or does it possibly stand a chance?
But there IS a potential problem with this:
The principal virtues of the existing system are that it provides fast, cheap, and frequent service to and from NYC. If PATH were extended into a more "fully-blown" regional system, I believe that its core function might suffer. The reason it works so well now is BECAUSE it is so limited. Remove those limitations, and you might very well badly break it - and that would be a very bad thing. I guess it comes down to the old adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
John
The EWR Rail Station is one of the nicest in the NEC. Extending PATH to the terminals themselves is a foolish idea, not worth a dime.
You have no data to support your opinion. On the other hand, the Port Authority and MARTA have proven that AirTrain-style circulators work well and passengers like them.
Find some evidence; then we'll discuss it. Otherwise it's just nonsense.
I never said airtrain style people movers don't work, b/c I know they do. What I am saying is that we have a chance to provide people with something even better than a people mover. PATH allows flexability, something that NJT and Amtrak don't. How so? PATH serves Midtown, Dowtown, and Exchange place, all major spots for business travelers. And tourists going to Manhattan also would appreciate it.
I totally agree with you. That's why I wrote to the PA to support PATH's extension. But you have just shown that taking AirTrain down is a waste of money.
Your post was an accident, but the facts support exactly what you typed.
I understood exactly what you meant. What you are proposing is basically to take money and flush it down a toilet. This is money that cannot be frivolously spent this way.
AirTrain probvides a very good, well-accepted way to get people into the terminals. Want to hook PATH into it and provide better local subway service in Elizabeth (more subway stations between Newark Penn and EWR Rail)? Fine, absolutely, do it.
"Now, I'm pretty sure you're so stupid that you didn't know that that is what I meant, so let's stop playin games, cuz it's only waisting bandwith."
I'm not wasting bandwidth. You are - instead of looking at the big picture and thinking a little more creatively. I know you can come up with better than this nonsense.
Oh, I meant to say I'm pretty sure you're NOT so stupid.... Sorry if you took any offense from that.
I am looking at the big picture. That picture is the future. I know that it may seem like something not totaly necesary right now, but sometime in the future, it really should get done. It can be something that seperates Newark Int'l from the others, direct rail service. I've said it before but I'm gonna say it again. Direct rail service is always convinient and is attractive to those traveling.
All a PATH EWR extension would do is clog PATH with suitcase wielding idiot tourists, and deprive a portion of Newark from rail transit. NJT and Amtrak already do the NYC-EWR run, and NERL will pick up the locals, all PATH would do is fracture this setup.
It will be a cold day in hell when the PANJNY allows EWR to be cheaper than JFK or LGA, PATH will NEVER go to EWR directly, get used to that POS camel of a monorail. If you don't like the pricing of tickets on NJT trains to EWR, write a respectful, coherant letter to both agencies saying "Gee, Mr. PANJNY (or Mrs. NJT), I'd like to ride your train to the airport, but it's just so gol-durn expensive, maybe if you lowered the ticket price you'd attract more business."
Run PATH somewhere original, somewhere that as yet doesn't have service, like the Southwest corner of the city, where it can do some good.
What utter nonsense. PATH would add local subway stops in Elizabeth at reasonable cost, and would offer access to the airport from local stops that commuter rail does not serve.
"NERL will pick up the locals,"
Not all of them and not as well, and NERL isn't reality yet.
"It will be a cold day in hell when the PANJNY allows EWR to be cheaper than JFK or LGA, PATH will NEVER go to EWR directly,"
So what. It doesn't have to go to EWR directly. Complete waste of money.
" get used to that POS camel of a monorail. "
I can exaggerate too, just like you: The monorail is hated only by closed-minded Neanderthal railbuffs who are sorry their beloved steam engines don't run on NJ Transit lines anymore. Airport passengers like it and it works well. I've ridden it and it's very good. Get over the railbuff BS.
"Run PATH somewhere original, "
You have my support on that.
I resent being called closed-minded!
Besides, NJT didn't have steam engines. We're sorry our beloved steam engines are no longer running on the CNJ, Erie, DL&W, PRR, Reading, and P-RSL.
I understand your sentiment. Luckily for me, I've always been a bit of a ferry fan so the last decade or so has been berry berry good for me. With the upcoming opening of the original slips at Hoboken, I'm all a dither.
No, the monorail really does suck. It is a toy that goes 15mph. Downhill. Uphill. And on the straightaways. What a waste of a beautiful guide-way.
It doesn't need to go any faster than it does, and it wouldn't offer substantially more value if it did.
Like I said, railbuff type BS, not relevant to the passengers who need the train. They consider it to be very useful.
"NJT and Amtrak already do the NYC-EWR run, and NERL will pick up the locals, all PATH would do is fracture this setup."
Yes, but remember, NYC is a big place. NJT is only midtown. PATH will allow for direct, one seat rides to downtown as well as midtown for A LOT cheaper than NJT will ever be. NERL? That's just NJ.
"It will be a cold day in hell when the PANJNY allows EWR to be cheaper than JFK or LGA"
IT'S A FRIGGIN AIRPORT!!! It's just like LGA and JFK. It serves lots of people every day bound for hundreads of locations. So what if one is cheaper than the other. It's all the same company. Honestly, what is YOUR morbid obsession with one airport being cheaper than another just b/c of its location.
Face it. Running PATH to the terminals will be great. It will provide tourists and business travelers alike with a cheap, one seat ride to Downtown, Exchange Place, and Midtown, which is something everyone will appreciate. Oh, and did I mention, Exchange Place and downtown aren't served by anything else from the EWR station.
Let's be honest. If you live in lower Manhattan (the WTC area is being redeveloped to have more housing in it than before the bombings) your closest airport by rail (and maybe even by car, really) is Newark International. Of course, if you're going overseas, a lot of the relevant flights leave from Kennedy, but cheap domestic flights? EWR is pretty good.
So why not serve it better?
"Oh, and did I mention, Exchange Place and downtown aren't served by anything else from the EWR station."
That's exactly right.
"Face it. Running PATH to the terminals will be great. "
Or running it to AirTrain. MARTA proved a long time ago that there's no need to run the subway or commuter rail into the terminals. It's nice if you do, but it really makes no difference.
AirTrain-Newark is well accepted by its users. So the most cost-effective thing to do is offer more convenience (tickets, baggage claim) which the PA, I understand, is doing, and then hook more rail up to it.
Besides, we do want PATH to go to other places too, so let's spend the money on that.
I doubt that MARTA had looked at the convinience of having a direct rail service. Airtrain is ok, but a direct rail service would be much better. Honestly, think about people going on vacation, away from or to NY. They would much rather be able to take one train rather than have to switch trains. Why is it such a hassle to switch trains for these vacationers? B/c they have large bags and w/e else they may be bringing with them. Having to move these things is a huge pain. That is the way I'm seeing it. Not from a railfan POV, but from that of a traveler and his/her family.
How do you know MARTA didn't look into it? It seems like you didn't look into it very much.
Next time yoiu fly into Atlanta, you can check it out yourself. Lay aside the railbuff railfan window crap just for a while and look carefully at what they are doing.
Let's put it this way: the PA is much more likely to approve a PATH extension to EWR rail. This actually would be good not just for the airport, but to give NJ Transit and Amtrak passengers access to new subway stops between there and Newark Penn.
Once that opens, you can then argue that switches and new tracks for PATH should go to the terminals and replace AirTrain. The advantage you get is this: If ridership outstrips AirTrain's ability to deal with passenger loads, you then have good data to back up your argument. PATH needs to go to the EWR Rail Station anyway, AirTrain or no AirTrain, because commuter rail cannot come into that airport.
If AirTrain handles the load perfectly well, and there is no passenger demand for more, then you can move on and spend your time more constructively on other things.
I'm certain that I remember seeing a real, firm plan for just that, complete with maps, which someone on this board posted a link to. Trouble is, I can't now find the website in question again. Can anyone reminde us where it is?
But since I don't, I can look instead at the other end of Jersey at PATCO. I read every now and then about studies to improve transit in south Jersey. A lot of times I hear about building a second branch off of the main PATCO line to serve the highway 55 corridor. How much merit would such a plan have? How much potential to really be built?
This talk makes me wonder about a few things. How many branches could PATCO have before it would exceed the TPH capacity of the one route across the Delaware, namely the Ben Franklin Bridge? Does anyone see a day coming when more rail crossings would be needed? If so, how would you do it? Could the Walt Whitman handle a rail line?
An old idea I really like is to extend the Broad Street Subway under the Delaware to National Park, NJ. I might make that extension a bit longer to allow a Park-and-Ride lot on I-295. This idea would be a nightmare politically and it'd be really expensive, but it'd provide a very useful service.
Mark
And just who takes responsibility for this expansion? DRPA/PATCO, Amtrak (owners of 30th St Station, they say what goes in their rail terminal), or NJ Transit? I doubt SEPTA would have much to say about it, they seem to be indifferent about anything not directly involving them. But if the line ends up going into the UPPER level of 30th Street...
I think NJ Transit plans to use the old alignment of which you speak, as opposed to PATCO using it... that's another problem in NJ rail in that area... PATCO is interstate, NJT as well, but none of NJT's rail goes into Philly. I don't believe NJT plans on sending the Glassboro line into Philly, and if they do, it'll definitely spark issues between them and PATCO, who owns the tracks NJT would likely use.
Personally, I'm more interested in seeing PATCO extended past Lindenwold. Maybe follow the 403 into Erial and Turnersville, or out to Winslow Junction, then south. (To Sicklerville?)
Well, the Atlantic City line terminates at 30th Street. But the tracks are not owned by NJT.
Similar situation for NJT in New York.
I'm guessing NJT's attitude is that if someone needs Philly, the PATCO and their bus routes are enough, not counting the ACRL (which doesn't go downtown, at least not the business district (30th Street Station IS in Central Phila.)) I'm surprised they don't have the same attitude about NYC (Then again, there's more rail into NYC, and most of NJT's operations (bus or rail) are in North Jersey (the above routes mentioned are about it for South Jersey, save some intra-state routes and Atlantic City area routes)
Too bad the ACRL is diesel instead of electric. The old idea SEPTA had for connecting the Northeast Corridor to the ex-Reading Main Line in North Philly would do well for the ACRL... run it across the Delair bridge, past North Philly, then connect into the Reading tack to head for Market East, Penn Center/Suburban, and 30th Street Stations, and terminate on the upper level. They'd probably get into Philly faster that way, considering they ignore Zoo, and the Penn Coach Yard approach (R7 trains get a lot of slowdown in the area around Zoo, R8 as well... R5 doesn't count; it goes west, and I believe the R5 tracks are the "flyover" of the junction.)
Going through Market East would also help a lot for the rail/bus honoring with the 551. If the ACRL train is delayed, you don't have to go 20 blocks east for the bus that honors your rail ticket... just upstairs, outside, and across Filbert Street. But until the ACRL gets electrified, they'll never have a chance. Diesel locomotives aren't permitted in the Center City tunnel.
In future perhaps? You need catenary, substations, power lines with their own easements to reach the substations, etc. And then the NIMBYS will be out again...
Amtrak rebuilt the Atlantic City line and initiated service. NJT came along a few months later, then took over the line when Amtrak dropped out.
(interuption)
Good luck on seeing the photos; my wife just called to remind me that we're going out tonight, and I have to visit my aunt in the hospital before going out. Then I'm getting up at 3:30 AM Saturday to head out to Rockhill Furnace to ride some trolleys and to Orbisonia to ride the M-1 and maybe a steam train.
subtalk@railfanwindow.com
Thanks!
If someone coughs up the billion dollars for the tunnel I think it would be sorta a minour issue of who operates it.
Oh well, I'm off to the Big Apple to look for Redbirds and then catch the screening of New York Underground, part of which documents a group of loonies who spent 35 hours riding subways.
I have a 75-minute commute on two subways and a bus, and somehow I make it alive. Some of the buses have large padded seats, but those are invariably the buses that I can't fit on, because the oversized seats take up too much space.
At least within the MTA network, it's well known that the commuter railroads receive a disproportionate share of the funds in the pot. Perhaps suburban commuters have higher standards than urban dwellers, but urban dwellers are paying to accomodate those higher standards.
If a subway rider has a 5-mile commute, he has to pay $1.67 per ride, or $70 for unlimited rides for 30 days. If he's lucky, he'll be able to squeeze into a small, hard seat. If not, he'll be one of many standees.
Now let's look at a commuter rail rider with a 50-mile commute. Does he have to pay $16.67 per ride, or $700 for unlimited rides for 30 days, with the substantial possibility of having to stand the whole way?
Let's see. Ronkonkoma to Penn Station is 50.3 miles. A one-way peak ticket is $12.25 (73% of our prediction), a one-way off-peak ticket is $8.25 (49% of our prediction), and a monthly pass is $252 (36% of our prediction). And LIRR riders typically all get (padded) seats, although much pushing and shoving at Penn Station takes place to avoid the dreaded middle seat.
What a steal! (And I almost mean that literally.)
Now we can make statistics look anyway we want. Lets's use your guote:
I have a 75-minute commute on two subways and a bus, and somehow I make it alive.
Okay, the average trip from Ronkonkoma is between an hour and an hour and a half to Penn. That averages to about 75 minutes (to keep it simple again depending if it it is an express or not, but it's usually closer to 80 minutes or so).
Now LIRR commuters are paying how much for their "padded seats" for their "suit covered anuses" to commute in the same amount of time?
(Granted there are more costs involved in traveling the extra mileage). If you do it in this manner the subway looks like a seat, even if you are banished to an R40 for 90 minutes.
The last phrase should say "steal" not "seat"
Of course, if one's anus is indeed suit-covered it's a likely bet that one's income is high enough that the cost of the LIRR monthly ticket is a mere drop in the bucket, fading into nothing next to such priority outlays as country club memberships (so one can play a weekly round of golf with an electric cart and brag about getting a terrific workout), wide-screen plasma TV's (so Wifey can sit around all day watching Oprah, wondering what the word "job" means), payments on the new BMW (so Junior can compete for a Darwin Award while driving 100 mph on the Expressway), and so on. I am more concerned about us casually dressed, non-millionaire working types, who get squeezed unmercifully on the LIRR by the S.C.A.'s in the adjacent seats.
Uh yup, very true. As THEY say. They're lies, damn lies, and statisics.
Peace,
ANDEE
It doesn't cover Metrolink, does it?
Transportation is expensive, and $252 only buys a limited quantity. For those who find commuter rail fares overly burdensome, might I recommend moving closer to work?
I don't understand your comments about LIRR seats. They're obviously much wider and more luxurious than subway seats. And commuter rail loading guidelines are obviously much more generous than subway loading guidelines. Maybe you'd prefer even wider seats and no risk of having to sit in a middle seat, but in the meantime a subway rider is lucky to get even one R-62 seat.
We have to remember though that the cost involved in providing for a one mile subway ride is more than the cost of providing for a one mile commuter (let's say LIRR) ride. You can not say that a 5 mile subway ride can be directly portional to the cost of a 5 mile LIRR ride. You can not say that a 50 mile LIRR ride, as used in your example, should be exactly 10 times the cost of a 5 mile subway ride. The per mile cost for the subway is a lot more than the per mile cost of the LIRR, which is cheaper.It cost more to provide a 1 mile subway ride than it cost to move a LIRR passenger 1 mile. That's why you can't say that this particular example should have LIRR passenegers paying 10 times that of the subway for their 50 mile vs 5 mile ride.
I personally don't find the LIRR rates to be overburdensom but at the same time they are not a steal anyway, and the costs/rates are not and can not be directly proportional between subway milage and LIRR milage.
But that ignores my basic point. If MTA funds were distributed to each subagency (LIRR, NYCT, etc.) in proportion to the number of people served by that subagency, the commuter railroads would come out behind and the subway would come out ahead.
It does cost more to provide a let’s say 5 mile stretch of subway service than a 5 mile stretch of LIRR service. On most of your LIRR lines you have only about 1 or 2 stations in a five mile stretch in Suffolk or about 3 or 4 stations in a five mile stretch in Nassau. Think of how many stations you have in a 5 mile stretch of your average subway line! It’s about 5 miles from the tip of Manhattan to the southern edge of Central Park. So to use the West Side line as an example, there are about 15 or 16 stations between South Ferry and 59th Street that must be maintained and operated. It is also much more expensive to operate a subway station than a LIRR/MNRR station. On the LIRR the majority of stations are outdoor stations, which consist of just a concrete platform, a shed, and railing (and sometimes a station building). It is much more expensive to maintain an underground subway station with general maintenance, 24 hour lighting, employee costs, turnstile maintenance, cleaning costs, repair, etc, and in addition there is a 2 or 3 cheaper-to-maintain LIRR station vs a 15 to 16 subway station ratio in a 5 mile stretch of track. The subway tunnels/El ROWs also have more maintenance costs than you average LIRR line. It is cheaper to maintain a ground level/embankment ROW than a tunnel. (granted some LIRR lines cost more to maintain than others, but some subway lines cost less to maintain than others too). Of course the subway has many more riders than the commuter lines, so that is why the fare can be so much cheaper on the more-expensive to maintain subway lines.
And yes, the LIRR/MN have a more inefficient peak than subway, but the subway is not immune from this phenomena either. Look at most of your crowded peak direction subway lines and compare them to the reverse peak side of those lines. It’s a difference between a sardine crush and getting a seat (or at least not getting crushed) on many subway lines. In the same token, it’s far from empty trains on reverse peak LIRR trains. It’s far from a “sit anywhere you want” on off peak trains. It's just less noticable on the subway because your ratio of riders is much higher on the subway than the LIRR. In addition the size of the fleet of both the subway and the LIRR is based on the needs of rush hour service. Just look at Coney Island yard at 4:30 AM, and compare it to 6:30 AM, and then look again mid day, and see it go from every track filled with a train in the early morning, to near empty at rush hour, to having many tracks occupied again later in the late morning-early afternoon. Besides, LIRR fares account for this by charging more for a peak train than an off-peak train.
I'm not discussing the quality, length, or price of an LIRR ride in absolute terms. I'm comparing it to the quality, length, and price of a comparable subway ride, if there is such a thing.
The thing is that you can’t compare the subway and LIRR. One is a commuter railroad, and the other is a rapid transit operation. The comfort levels will not be the same comparing those two modes of transportation. Of course LIRR riders are spending less per mile because it is cheaper to run the LIRR per mile than the subway. As for commuter railroads being allocated more space, well we have to remember that they are two totally different types of systems. You can not run the LIRR like it was a rapid transit service because it’s not, and you can’t run the subway like it’s a commuter operation because it’s not; it’s like comparing apples to oranges and saying that you get more juice from an orange than an apple when squeezed. The LIRR and subway serve different purposes. If you were to provide LIRR type accommodations on the subway, you would need MANY more TPH, and that’s not possible to do. You think the stations are crowded now, try running side by side padded large seats down Lexington Ave on the 6 and see how many people fit. At the same time, what would the use be of running an R143 type train between Ronkonkoma and Penn Station? Both of those examples would be terribly inefficient.
Now don’t get me wrong, I am certainly not an advocate for the LIRR. If anything I am more of a subway sympathizer, as I never was a regular LIRR commuter, but I perfectly understand the daily plight of being a subway rider. At the same time though, I come back to my original conclusion that an average 50 mile LIRR ride should not be 10 times the cost of 5 mile average subway ride, because all things are NOT equal.
LIRR seats are tolerable if: (1) you are of small stature, say 170 pounds or less, and (2) the person(s) sitting next to you is/are of similar size. But if you weigh, say, 190 pounds, which is probably about average for an adult male, and a man of the same weight is in the seat next to you, it will be a tight squeeze. If you're a bit bigger, say 220 pounds, and another person of the same size sits next to you, it will be a very miserable ride. Note I'm not talking about really large people, ones who find it hard to fit just about anywhere, but ordinary, everyday types.
Of course not. In most instances, however (yes I admit there are some exceptions), LIRR trips are longer than subway trips, making seat comfort a more significant issue.
I'm not discussing the quality, length, or price of an LIRR ride in absolute terms. I'm comparing it to the quality, length, and price of a comparable subway ride, if there is such a thing.
Maybe, compare the LIRR ride to Forest Hills from Jamaica to the corresponding subway ride. Or to Woodside. I would think if someone had a decent enough salary to be able to afford the ticket price, and lived in Jamaica and worked in Woodside (or the reverse), it might be worth it. Or even Jamaica/34th Street. Surely there are as many LIRR trains leaving Jamaica to Manhattan during the a.m. rush as there are E trains.
I guess the same goes for someone working or living near the Flatbush Terminal and working or living near ENY.
Very good point.
I ould guess that a typical LIRR trip might be equal in length to a "closer in subway trip. On the other hand, a trip downtown on the F from 179 St will take longer than an LIRR trip to Penn from Great Neck or New Hyde Park, assuming the LIRR train isn't held up for an extended delay by a stop signal in front of the Penn tubes, which sometimes happens.
The average weight of a 25 year old male is close to 170 lbs.
Not that the life of a suburban commuter is all sweetness and light. LIRR commuters have to jam themselves onto filthy rotting 30-year old trains with unreliable heating and a/c and, frequently, near-opaque windows; wedge themselves into seats designed for midget anorectic quadruple amputees; get squeezed even further by alpha males who plop their suit-covered anuses into the aforesaid tiny seats and open their newspapers (turned to the sports pages, of course) into their seatmates' faces; deal with scarce, expensive, and often unsafe parking; have to humiliate themselves by standing in cows-at-the-slaughterhouse chute half-moons and doing the Baby Elephant Walk; and, maybe worst of all, pay through the nose for the "privilege" ($252 for a Ronkonkoma monthly).
Did you ever ride the # 2 train from 241-White Plains Rd to Flatbush Ave after a night of drinking? Believe me, it wasn't pleasant! :-(
The first option I said, Newark to the GSP along Rt 124 would only cover 3 miles, and would make a good MOS-1 option. The Second option would be running it all the way to I-78 at the junction of SR 124, where there would be other options for a Park and Ride. That option would be 7 miles worth of extention, a possibility for a MOS-2 option.
Finally, if NJT could bowl over some NIMBYs and walk the environmental tightrope required, they could build the line all the way to Millburn, or, if they were really brave, Summit station on the M&E. Millburn would be a mere 1/2 mile further from the I-78 P&R, assuming that station were setup to have the Millburn extension come off it. The possible extention of the line to Summit, done in lieu of the Millburn line, would run along I-78 to SR24, then quickly turn off that and run somehow along or over the M&E ROW up to Summit. This line would come in at around 10.5 miles Newark Penn-Summit, add to that the roughly 11.5 miles Newark-33rd st and you have a line 22 miles long, unless something is wrong I don't see people bouncing around for 50-60 minutes (somewhere around a 1/3mph???). It'd provide a cut-off for those who don't want to follow the M&E up to I-280, as well as providing a real boon to those who work in Newark but live along the M&E, no longer would they have to go to out-of-the-way Newark Broad. Given new-build track on the extension it's also likely that it'd be a smoother ride than the old H&M track sections.
And all this would serve the passengers living along the line.
I just gotta ask, did you even read my original post? Would it have been too much to ask for you to pop up MapQuest or open a road atlas to see that I was not proposing anything along the lines of replacing the RVL with PATH?
Any Java programmers out there want to give it a try?
Mark
I presume you are not against an extension to EWR, just that you want more than that.
Your idea's pretty good. If much of the line is underground, there are several areas around Newark and Jersey City where PATH would be welcomed and NIMBY would not be a huge problem.
Note that above ground, a PATH extension to EWR (meaning the EWR station in Elizabeth) would provide not just airport transportation but also at least one or two more PATH stops between Newark-Penn and the airport rail station, offering subway service to a community that could use it. Along that ROW, NIMBY would not be an issue.
Nearly all the advantages PATH had over an NJT rail to EWR have evaporated, just about the only main advantage is price. If everyone is so bent out of shape over that, why not write NJT and the PA to lower the fare, it'd be a lot cheaper than bringing in a whole new line just for that purpose.
No it woudn't. It would offer access to the airport to passengers whom the other rail link would not necessarily serve, add heavyu rail subway service to Elizabeth linking local subway stops in Newark, Jersey City and Hoboken together (as well as NY). And, compared to underground subway costs, it would be relatively inexpensive.
"All PATH would do is split ridership off those other two modes. "
Not really. It adds subway service, which is preferred by customers over light rail anyway. PATH is faster than light rail can be, and is more cost-effective to run. PATH is cheaper to operate on a per-passenger basis than light rail.
"Airline passengers would be covered by NJT Rail and Amtrak, however 'outrageously expensive' they are,"
Bingo. You just proved yourself wrong.
"PATH will have to go to EWR rail station, and the passengers will have to ride AirTrain to the terminal."
That's fine. It eliminates excess construction cost and takes advantage of an already available, excellent conveyor to the airport. There's a lot of silly AirTrain bashing on Subtalk, of course, but none of it makes any sense.
You're right that bus options (#62 from Penn, for example) exist. Different market. Again, no problem.
You get a One-seat ride from EWR to Newark, Exchange Place, Hoboken, Downtown Manhattan, and Midtown manhattan. And no, it wouldn't be a duplicate of service b/c like I said, it will replace the airtrain.
The one-seat ride isn't necessary. Actual operating experience at other airpots, as well as Newark, Atlanta and Houston shows that the airport circulator concept (which is what AirTrain represents) works well. Replacing AirTrain with PATH is a complete waste of money.
Mistyped. Those are the other airports I'm referring to.
I would take issue with that statement. What about HOBOKEN???
Peace,
ANDEE
:0)
Where is this proposed subway? Are you talking about undergrounding the #7 train, or something else entirely?
LOL, one topic opened about that line, and someone though it was referring to Roosevelt Ave in NY.
Back to PATH... What is this AirTrain; last time I was on the NECL, Newark Int'l Airport station wasn't finished yet, neither was ST. (That wasn't even started). Exactly what is this AirTrain, and why is it so bashed, and why would extending PATH to EWR do any good/bad for it?
As far as where PATH should go... Rahway. That's about it; though many of the extensions I've seen in this thread are rather intriguing. Summit especially. Truth be told, PATH isn't really a systematic line, just one line with several different routes and terminals. Trying to "systemize" it would detract from the original purpose (connect Newark/Hoboken/Jersey City/NYC), and probably strain the original routes very badly (too many trains going through, unless anything past Newark Penn eliminated the current turnback trips there.) If an extension were made, wherever it is made should probably be where the focus of future expansion remains. So if they go west from Newark, then stick with it. Going west AND south, with all the trains needed to cover service, you'd get clogs in Newark. Still in all, I'm all for direct service from Hoboken, Exchange Place, Midtown, and Downtown instead of having to go to Newark first, especially where it concerns coming from the Summit area, as there is currently no connection between that corridor and Newark Penn.
Anything west past Summit, or south past Rahway would be a bit too much. Did I see someone say Long Branch for PATH trains? Rahway would be fine, especially if the PATH Rahway/NYC trains took over for the NECL Rahway/NYC trips. With those no longer running, the tubes are freed up for potential extended RVL service, more MidTown DIRECT trains, or whatever else Amtrak/NJT may want to do. And speaking of MidTown Direct... PATH to Montclair?
Geez, maybe I've got more ideas that I thought... I better look further into this.
Cranford? Plainfield? Maybe. RVL service isn't that frequent.
It is a people mover for Newark Int'l Airport in the form of a monorail. Kind of like the one in Orlando, but this one now connects to NJT and Amtrak.
"why would extending PATH to EWR do any good/bad for it?"
Extending PATH will allow for a one-seat ride for business travelers and tourists alike going to Exchange Place, Downtown, and Midtown, as well as residents in Hoboken and Newark. Extending PATH to the airport without doing anything to airtrain would be stupid, b/c it would create 2 lines that serve the same purpose. My proposal is to take down airtrain and replace it with PATH. This way, like I already said, a one seat ride, and a cheap one if I may add, would be available for residents, business travelers, and tourists. Some argue that allowing for direct rail would make EWR cheaper, and for some reason seem to think that this is a bad thing. To me, an airport is an airport. So what if one is cheaper than the other? As long as it aids in transporting people between cities, which is what it is there for, than that should be all that matters.
"As far as where PATH should go... Rahway"
I have to disagree. NJT already makes the run between NYC/Hoboken/Newark and Rahway. Running PATH there would create an unecesary competition. That is a dumb thing to do when PATH can be sent somewhere more sensible. Summit? Hell naw! Extending PATH that far into the suburbs is another bad idea. And, just like an extension to Rahway, it would create unecesary competition. An extension of PATH to EWR and/or to new parts within Newark WITHOUT SUFFICIENT PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION would be much better.
"currently no connection between that corridor and Newark Penn"
Newark city subway runs between Newark Broad St and Newark Penn.
"Cranford? Plainfield? Maybe. RVL service isn't that frequent."
So increase it. Extending PATH there b/c it would provide more service is still a waste of money when they can simply put more trains on RVL.
I like the way you look at using PATH to free up the hudson tunnels. However, I think this is not a solution. NJ needs to put in a new 2 track tunnel, plain and simple.
It's not at all like the one in Orlando. MCO's people mover runs only between the concourses and the main terminal. AirTrain runs to long-term parking and the RR station, as well as between the terminals.
Hence the reason of going to Rahway on PATH. Frees the tubes. Freed tubes could allow for RVL trains to get into NYC instead of just Newark Penn Station, and could probably warrant an increase of service. Right now, NJT NECL trains make runs from Trenton to NYC, Jersey Avenue (New Brunswick) to NYC, and Rahway to NYC. In addition, there are those trains on the NJCL. While none of them short-turn at Rahway, they do run between there and NYC on every trip. That, plus MidTown DIRECT M&E, Montclair/Boonton AND the numerous Amtrak/Acela (Did I just type that hideous name?) trains is quite a bit for only two tubes into NYP, I agree. If anything could go to lower the strain, be it to allow for additional trains into NYP or not, the NECL NYC-Rahway trips would be first on the chopping block. And having PATH going to Rahway on its own tracks would make it so that the customers using those short-turn trips wouldn't be without an alternate other than taking a different NECL or an NJCL trip.
Summit wasn't my idea, just one I recall seeing. Same with Long Branch, but let's not dream TOO much.
As far as an extra pair of Hudson River Amtrak/NJT tubes goes, whether NJ or NY would shoulder that responsibility is beyond me... but it's AMTRAK's station and trackage, and they have worked with only two tracks for years now. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? Forgive my sarcasm there, but give me a break! Two tracks into a multi-track terminal for six NJT lines AND all of Amtrak's trains (and I don't believe there are any trips that originate AND terminate south of NYC, so that could count for all the Northeast Corridor's Amtrak service (and dammit, that's a hell of a lot of trains!))? That's a bit too much strain. You and everyone else who agrees with adding at least two more tubes are quite correct. What gets me even more is that I belive Union Station in DC has a few less tracks than NYP, but has several tracks on the approach (of course, 10 of the station tracks are stubs for northbound-only Amtrak trips and MARC trains; the rest are for through trips and VRE), similar to Philadelphia's 30th Street. Then again, Amtrk only shares with ONE line directly in Phila; SEPTA has the upper level for itself, so no strain there.
And for the RVL to NYP, that's just an example of what could be done once the tubes are freed up, but even if they were freed the tubes AND added two more, there still won't be any RVL service into NYC until the line itself is electrified.
One thing I'll say: The initial topic advises against an extension to EWR. Well, the only way THAT's going to be avoided is if PATH isn't extended south AT ALL, at least for any significant distance (the layup tracks past Newark Penn Station were to be part of an extension, yes? How far from Newark Int'l Airport Rail Station do the tracks end?).
NJT/EWR isn't the only indirect connection to an airport from commuter rail... MARC/BWI has the same problem, but without weekend service. I'm debating whether to open up THAT can of worms in this topic, or make it a separate topic.
I've seen ome new fantasy maps for NYC Subway service. Why not one for PATH/PATCO (in case anyone forgot the OTHER NJ port authority and its pet rail line's presence in this topic) as well?
R-32.
Governmental agencies eventually bow to public pressure and TA is no exception. The riding public wants comfort and access. The results were New Technology trainsets and improved stations. There are 'fallouts' and the one we remember is the R-110 series......I'll have to make some calls about the R-110A 'shell' which had been at 239th. As for the RealRoad, improvements are being made in controls/signalling BUT it's the same olde tracks.....I just discovered how to add track zoning and automatic switching to my post-war Lionel Set!!!!!!! All the Best to All, CI Peter
Automatic Train Signalling is a bit simpler and already used on railroad trackage. Basically, it lets the system know where the train is and sets up signals and some switches without the vast exchange of information that the R-143 is supposed to provide.
The R-143 has a seperate video screen for CBTC next to the TOs operating screen while ATS has a small console within the master locomotive which displays the color of approaching signals as well as a button to acknowledge with. CBTC works with the entire five/ten pack trainline while ATS is only in the loco cab (long freight trains have a portable transponder unit to tell the system where the train ends.) (I made this a simple explanation.) CI Peter
David
Ride dat funky subway, white boy !
I like 1970's retro. Big Elton John fan. Love bellbottoms. Free love is a nice romantic concept (though not too workable in the real world.) Love the t-shirt and jeans look. And I was just a small child at the time (born in 1971!) But the R44-46 interior is retro in a BAD way. Just like there's "Bad '50's", this is "Bad '70's".
:-) Andrew
Even so, I too have begun to make my peace with the buggers. The R46 is closely associated with Queens Blvd and has been so for so many years, that's it's like a symbol of my borough. And the R44 has seemingly never left the (A).
:-) Andrew
Now we just need to park that train in the BMT 49th Street Station to complete the whole 70's theme........GROOVY MAN.
The Brightliners, R40s, and R42s, all now have "look-alike" generic interiors since thier GHO's.
They were pretty similar inside even before theor GOHs too. IINM, all of them had that aqua-blue-green colored seats.
Peace,
ANDEE
i've been reading your reviews of the piece and i just want to say i'm sorry some of you are so unhappy with it. i think you guys come across as being incredibly perseverent, with great senses of humor, and (of course) an immense amount of knowledge about the subway.
people i know who have seen it are impressed with your passion for what you're into (if somewhat baffled by it - but that is something you guys are already used to!), not critical of it or making fun.
in the end, i also want to say that it's incredibly tough to widdle 153 hours of tape into 44 minutes and we ended up sacrificing a lot of stuff from all the stories that we would have liked to include.
i still hope you come tonight because it would be great to see all of you. thanks all of you for doing this with us -- (personally doing the ultimate ride was one of my favorite shooting experience on this project.)
lets have fun tonight and celebrate the subway. !
gena
As I said in previous posts, there were three main things that I didn't like.
First, you shouldn't have said that they were trying to break a record. I understand that saying that makes the show a little bit more suspenseful, but since the focus of the show left the ultimate ride so often, I don't think it was an effective ploy. Regardless of whether it worked, it was still wrong. By the ultimate riders not "beating the record" or coming anywhere close to it, it makes them seem dumb for even thinking they could beat it, especially since they are "subway buffs" and should have known better (which they do, and that's why they WEREN'T going for the record).
That relates to my second point, which was placing the blame for the delays on the ultimate riders' photography. Not once during the 9.5 hours that I was with you did I witness us missing a train because of photography, and I don't think you will disagree. The real causes of the delays were for the most part do to the technical aspects of gathering footage and the needs of the film crew. Of course I understand you can't say that in the show, but you could have instead passed the delays off to being caused by just missing trains, long transfers, etc. You could have reinforced this by showing clips of them missing trains and running through transfers, if you had such footage. And the fact that you made it seem like the delays added up to over 7 hours (32 minus 25) just made it worse.
Finally, I didn't think the comment (made by Randy Kennedy maybe?) about "subway buffs not being able to relate to people normally" (or something to that affect) was necessary or appropriate. That is a negative, untrue (but commonly held) generalization/stereotype that would have proven untrue had the documentary taken a closer look at the group of ultimate riders that you attracted. The group was amazingly diverse, in every way possible. If you would have explored this angle a little, it may have even helped to show that railfans are at least a little less weird than everyone thinks they are. I am disappointed that this was not done.
Even though the three things that I mentioned only involved less than one minute of air time total, I think they are the things that stick out the most from the Ultimate Ride segment, are thus the viewers will certainly pick up on.
Overall, I'm sure I will be happy with the show. The one segment that I did watch, the one about the cat at Fulton street, was great. I had heard about that previously, probably via a Tunnel Vision article, and am glad that you followed up on it. Once I see the whole segment about the graffiti vandals, I will probably like it (even though most other people here didn't) because I've always wanted to see how they do it without getting caught or killed. I just hope the segment has a happy ending with the vandals getting caught.
I will be at the screening tonight, and plan on asking about the source of the record that the program quoted as being set in 1998 with a time of 25 hours and 11 minutes. I am not familiar with this record. Or did I just misunderstand the narrator, and you were really referring to the record from the 1980's that was in the Guinness Book of World Records? Whatever, I'll ask tonight.
Oh yeah, and thanks for keeping me in the final product :) I am prominently featured leading the group through a passageway (the video is shown at like 4x speed or something).
i want to address your questions now, because its very likely there won't be time tonight to get to everyone's questions, and it's important .
first of all, we asked the group at the planning meeting to try to break the record for the sake of the story, and everyone agreed. (we have this on tape.) no one from the group found out what the record was before leaving on the trip, so obviously the record they were trying to break was vague. if you are not one of the buffs who was involved in that discussion (which I am assuming you're not since you say you were only there for 9.5 hours) then that is why you are not aware of that.
also, the editor's decision to help explain why it took so long with the number of photos you were taking comes from sumeet 's very own explanation of one of the things that lead to the delays. (which is also on tape, and in the final piece). there is simply not room in a piece this length to give long arduous explanations of every single thing that happened along the way to cause delays. furthermore, if you were only there for 9.5 hours, there is no way for you to dispute any of the reasons someone who *did* the entire trip offers as cause for delays.
thirdly, randy kennedy is entitled to *his* own opinion, and i DO feel that IN THIS PIECE IT IS MADE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR NO ONE IN THAT GROUP HAD ANY DIFFICULTY WHATSOEVER RELATING TO OTHER PEOPLE. if anything i think this piece serves to dispute that. the fact that we chose such a diverse group of people and included bites like "we worked together as a group, the way it should be" absolutely counters the claim that buffs cant relate to people.
lastly, chris sent me the record a few weeks ago because we needed it for the narration and per the original *agreement* that that was part of the goal, despite the fact that no one from the group found out before hand what record they were vaguely trying to break. it comes from Time Magazine for kids - and that is at the following link.
i appreciate your questions and your interest in the production, and the trip, etc. but i do have to tell you i think you are somewhat out of line having not been there for the entire trip, or part of the original discussions and agreements that took place prior to embarking on the journey.
I don't remember saying that the delays were caused by riders running around taking photographs. I think I know the quote you are referring to, but I think I said that we were all taking pictures BECAUSE we were delayed. That was the Mott Av station, where we were delayed for quite some time, and everyone took the opportunity to snap some scenic shots. It was not my intent to say that the delays were CAUSED by the riders taking pictures.
Secondly, it is true that we did agree that we would build a story around trying to break the record, but the statement near the end of the show, "They didn't even come close", seemed to be a little bit excessive. It did seem like we were kind of silly for even trying, at least that's how I interpreted it.
Sorry if there were any misinterpretations.
Then I stand corrected. After watching the documentary, I asked at least one Ultimate Rider if the group knew that they were trying to beat the record and he said no. But it seems that he just forgot about the agreement at the planning meeting.
lastly, chris sent me the record a few weeks ago because we needed it for the narration and per the original *agreement* that that was part of the goal, despite the fact that no one from the group found out before hand what record they were vaguely trying to break. it comes from Time Magazine for kids - and that is at the following link.
So Chris really DID know what the record was during the trip ;) I will ask Chris if he has any more information about this 1998 record, because I can't find any other reference to it on the internet. I'd like to know what "record book" it is in, since Guinness Book of World Records retired the subway record (stopped including it in the book) in the late 1990's, so it wouldn't be in there. Maybe the article didn't mean "record book" literally, so in that case I'd just like to know what authority recognizes this record. I don't necessarily doubt the record's validity, I'm just curious because I'm considering doing my own "Ultimate Ride" next year.
Again, good job, and let me know about that DVD of extra footage!
"The record for traveling the whole New York City subway system is 26hr 21min 8sec set by Kevin Foster on Oct 25-26, 1989."
That was taken from the 1991 edition of the Guinness Book of World Records.
Just my opinion here on that matter.
With sugar, maraschino cherries and caramel sauce on top?
SO MUCH BETTER than that R36WF crap that i have to deal with occasionally on the 7
Caption: In the middle photo, from left to right, we have gena, ( 1 ) South Ferry ( 9 ), skfny, David J. Greenberger, Neelam, R30, Kool-D, DTrain22, TheGreatOne2k3, and NEW R-142.
DAMN.
You're SO MUCH better than 1 Hour Photo!
PS: Having such a beautiful woman with you on the ride, must have been
a lot of fun and motivation. :-)
Does anyone have a suggestion for a place where we could shoot the interior of a subway car? It would be six people and the shot is quite simple.We tried the MTA but theye want $4000 and railroad insurance to shoot on the Grand Central shuttle. The transit museum won't let anyone shoot in their subway car.
Anywhere around New York is fine. Car doesn't need to be moving. Can be indoors but is preferably outdoors. A set is fine and we are happy to pay a location fee.
Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer suggestions.
Brett
We are looking to shoot ANY subway interior. To shoot on a current MTA train isn't necessary and is prohibitively expensive. We are looking for any old subway car where we can set up for a few hours.
Brett
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
From Shore Line's website:
"Photo/film/video shoots
The Trolley Museum provides historic vistas for film, still photography and video productions. We can help you recreate any era from the late 1890s through the 1980s and develop interior, exterior and action shots of our varied trolley and subway car collection. We welcome students, small independents, location contractors as well as major studios and networks. Please inquire with your needs to receive a quotation."
The Z train, during the PM rush hour leaves East New York Yard <2 minutes behind the J train. It usually has less than a dozen people on the entire train. In fact it stays pretty empty until about Flushing - but you should be good if you stay in the back, opposite the end of the car from the station entrance/exits at Flushing/Lorimer/Hewes/Marcy. The first Z is supposed to depart from Broad St northbound at 4:55 PM, and the last at 5:45 PM. It has to depart ENY yard, make all stops to Broad St, stop, dump all passsengers, relay, and arrive at the northbound platform. Beware, though, this is usual pracitice but doesn't happend 100% of the time. Sometimes the Z starts at Broadway Junction and lays over for a few minutes picking up many passengers.
To catch such a train you must be at Chauncey St, Manhattan-bound platform, at the back of the platform. They usually are around 4:30-5:30 PM, on weekdays. You'd have about 20 minutes to yourselves.
Elias
Elias, Who is Branford?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peace,
ANDEE
Be careful. While still photography with no ancillary equipment
is perfectly legal on the NYCT system (see the many recent
threads), shooting for commercial purposes is not legal without
a permit. "Ancillary equipment" includes tripods, flash or lights.
That generally means any kind of motion picture shoot also runs
afoul of these rules.
The Shore Line Trolley Museum (BERA)
17 River Street
East Haven, CT 06512
(203) 467-6927
Sorry, cannot find a link.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Correct me if I'm wromg.
Peace,
ANDEE
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know this from the R142 page:
Dianne Thompson (#2)
Melissa Kleiner (#5)
Jess Ettinger (#6)
Charlie Pellett ("stand clear of the closing doors")
Or, have the recordings for the 7 have not been made yet?
"This is a Flushing-bound" 7 local train. The next stop is Vernon Jackson.
"stand clear on the closing doors please"
It's Vernon Blvd-Jackson Ave, although the original station signs (and the directional tablet) read Vernon Ave.
This is a Times Square Avenue Bound (Queens Local, Manhattan Express) 7 train Express train
The next stop is Willetts Point Avenue
Stand Clear of the closing doors please
Who are those people though(besides the fact that they did the announcements)?
Who did the voice overs for Long Island Bus?
Keep him for the doors and transfers. For station announcements:
Al Pacino, Rudy Giulliani, Ed Koch, George Clooney, Lynda Carter, Kristy Alley, Phylicia Rashad, Bill Cosby. Even thought about Mistress Cleo for a laugh. Of course, I have to nominate Subtalkers as well just to be "fare". Ny nominees:
Thurston, Lou From Brooklyn, R30, BMTMan, and "Yours Truly". Reason being is because I know their voices and have spoken to them in person(of course, not including myself). Once I meet other SubTalkers, I can expand the nominees.
Regards,
Jimmy
Not only does he do that most commonly heard announcemant, he also lists the transfers on the 2 and 6 lines (except announcing the 3 & 4 at Franklin Av), plus the following:
"Ladies and gentlemen, we are being held momentarily by the train's dispatcher. Please be patient."
"Ladies and gentlemen, we apologize for the unavoidable delay."
"Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for riding with MTA New York City Transit."
"Ladies and gentlemen, this is the last stop on this train. Everyone please leave the train."
"This is the last stop on this train. Everyone please leave the train. Thank you for riding with MTA New York City Transit."
Regards,
Jimmy
Late at night, he does announce the transfer to the shuttle bus to 148th St/Lenox Terminal...
Ladies and gentelmen, riding on the outside of subway cars is dangerous. please remain on the inside of the car.
"Ladies and Gentlemen, in order to provide the best possible service, we are waiting for connection passengers on...and arriving train. Please be patient."
"Ladies and Gentlemen, riding on the outside of subway cars is dangerous. Always ride INSIDE of...the subway cars."
"The electronic information signs and strip maps are not working. Please listen for station announcements and watch the displays."
"Ladies and Gentlemen, for your safety, please do not block the doors while the train is in the station."
"Ladies and Gentlemen, for your safety, please do not ride or walk between subway cars while the train is in motion."
"Ladies and Gentlemen, for your safety, please do not hold the car doors open while the train is in the station."
Any more!????
Incognito
The White Plains Kid
We already know of SEPTA's plans for the Roosevelt Blvd. subway (extended off the BSL, more on that below), NJT's South Jersey Light Rail, the planned line to Glassboro (unsure if it'll be NJT or PATCO to do this), WMATA's extensions to Dulles Airport and Largo Town Center, and their NY Ave station, and the ever-so-wanted 2nd Ave. Subway, and 7 line extension. But what ELSE can be done? What else have YOU wanted?
Admittedly, I don't know too much about NYC MTA. Not that I don't want to, but I prefer hands-on experiences. I'm still working on getting there to see it firsthand. But I don't think Yonkers is too far away to ask for subway service, do you?
NJT could have at least elecrtified the SNJLRT. That aside, it's a good idea, and it's about time Burlington County had rail. Gloucester seems to be next. But what of Atlantic County? All they get is a few stops on the Atlantic City Line. I think a double tracking is in order at least. At most, a spur into Atlantic City Airport, and a branch from Absecon to Pleasantville and south along the shore to at least Wildwood. There's also confirmations of a line to West Trenton. The project doesn't mention electrification of the line. That is a must if the line is to have any chance of service to NYC.
SEPTA hast their projects out of priority. They're likely NOT going to Reading until thy get it through their heads how it should be done - electrify the line, and just send the R6 trains there. I doubt there would be enough ridership to warrant transit-like schedules between Norristown and Philadelphia, much less to Reading. Schyulkill Valley Metro my ass.
That brings me to the Cross County Metro and Boulevard Subway. The CCM is a nice idea with bad potential consequences. The eased congestion on the Turnpike is a definite plus, but the potential interface with Regional Rail Lines and local bus routes defeats the purpose of one or the other. Using it as just a connector alongside the Turnpike means it loses function at the ends. What of people going into Center City? I doubt someone wants to ride to Fort Washington from King of Prussia to get downtown when they have the 124/5 bus to do that. The CCM would be better off as an east-west spur from the R2 Warminster or R5 Lansdale/Doylestown than a stand-alone line alongside the 'pike. The needed shuttles to get from CCM to Regional Rail otherwise would mean SEPTA needs new vehicles, more operators, and the cash to fund it all. And having the vision of an alternative to the 'pike only to need to jump to a bus to get to another train... people would probably prefer the I-276 gridlock. I don't know what became of the project, but it wasn't looking that good from what I initially saw of it. SEPTA intentionally skipped the R4 designation in Regional Rail; maybe this would be a good line to use it with.
The BLVD Subway... much more practicial. But slightly flawed. SEPTA seems to think Southampton Road is as far as it needs to go. Why end there? I'm sure people wouldn't mind a subway to Neshaminy Mall. Enough people take the 14 there, and still would with the subway around (don't think so? Then explain how Route C survives). The other is the potential connection to the BSL, with the MFL interface it Bustleton Avenue. The Boulevard/Bustleton connection isn't needed. If the idea is to get from Northeast to downtown quickly, why would they change trains? Anyone needing Frankford Terminal can JUST TAKE THE 14! That's why it's there. And even if they did need the connection, going via the MFL into the city would be slower than just staying on the subway. Especially since the Blvd. line is to be a part of the BSL express service, which the MFL has none of, nor any real potential for (only two tracks the whole trip). Getting to the express tracks on the BSL... problem. The flyover in place for this extension was made years ago, set as a connection from the LOCAL tracks... the local to express connection closest to this point is NORTH of the junction itself. Trains would have to go local to Girard, then express. And by then, the only stop skipped is Fairmount, so why bother? There were never provisions made for an express/local interface south of Erie, though evidence lingers of one north of North Philadelphia station. That could work, except it was laid in the wrong direction. The ideal way to do this is: remove the express tracks between Wyoming and the crossover north of Erie. Sink the trackbed, and tunnel under Hunting Park Station to go to the Boulevard. North of the junction, raise the trackbed back to Local track level, so the express tracks can continue to Fern Rock. Why? Well, if the Express is going to the Boulevard, then what won't be forced to turn back at Olney anymore? The demand for fast service from FRTC to Center City won't vanish with the Blvd. line in place.
SEPTA and MARC also need a connection. MARC has mentioned going as far north as Wilmington... why not send SEPTA as far south as Elkton. There's evidence of a station there, and they could easily restore it, maybe add a few tracks, and bring MARC that far north for the connection. Of course, if MARC thinks they could have need for service to Wilmington... that brings up an idea I'd had years ago... send the R2 to Baltimore. A SEPTA/MARC connection from Philly to DC, not at all unlike the existing SEPTA/NJT connection to NYC... this should have been done years ago.
Speaking of MARC, why not a line to LaPlata?
Into DC itself... Largo was unexpected, as was NY Ave. The Dulles extension is something apart from what I originally thought WMATA planned to do, part of which is listed below among a few ideas I've had for WMATA's rail system (which apparently were part of the original plans, or else newly conceived plans that don't get much mention or push.)
Green Line: North to Beltsville and Laurel, south to Brandywine/Waldorf
Red Line: North from Glenmont to Aspen Hill and Olney
Blue Line: South to Newington, Lorton, and Woodbridge
Yellow Line: South to Fort Belvoir, Mt Vernon. Possibly north via Georgia Avenue to Silver Spring (terminal would be underground) or at least Brightwood. WMATA needs to do SOMETHING with their little shortline; it's only got two stations to itself, and is but a speck compared to the rest of the system
Orange Line: Northeast to Odenton. West from Vienna to Fair Oaks Mall, then either northwest to Chantilly or continue west to Centreville.
Purple Line (new route) from BWI through Fort Meade, into Greenbelt. Then, run along the MARC Camden Line alignment through Riverdale and connect to the Red Line at Union Station. If any potential southern extension past that, connect into Yellow Line at L'Enfant Plaza, and terminate at National Airport. (This would likely be the sole regular connection between the Red Line and the rest of the system, allowing more integration of the roster.)
The WMATA extension to Largo is only a year away from opening!
"The BLVD Subway... much more practicial. But slightly flawed. SEPTA seems to think Southampton Road is as far as it needs to go. Why end there? I'm sure people wouldn't mind a subway to Neshaminy Mall. Enough people take the 14 there, and still would with the subway around (don't think so? Then explain how Route C survives). "
Extending the subway to Neshaminy is cute, but the cost would be much greater than SEPTA has money for, and of course there would be Major NIMBY to deal with (when do we get to demote him to private? :0) )
Route C survives because the bus provides stops closer togethe than the subway does, because some people feel uncomfortable on the train (for good reasons or stupid reasons, whatever the case may be), because the BSS is mostly not handicapped and elderly-friendly friendly and Route C is.
"The other is the potential connection to the BSL, with the MFL interface it Bustleton Avenue. The Boulevard/Bustleton connection isn't needed. If the idea is to get from Northeast to downtown quickly, why would they change trains? Anyone needing Frankford Terminal can JUST TAKE THE 14!"
The 14 is a poor substitute for a subway interchange. Extend the MFL and you increase ridership on both lines.
"And even if they did need the connection, going via the MFL into the city would be slower than just staying on the subway. "
If you were headed straight downtown, along Broad, that would be true. Trouble is, the interchange with the BSS downtown can be awkward, and it's not friendly to the elderly, to people with kids, or to wheelchairs, and making it so is very complicated. The Bustleton transfer will be ADA-compliant. Most of the Frankford El is wheelchair compliant now, and the 2nd Street and 5thb Streetr station are too. 30th Street is becoming ADA compliant. The Market Frankford Line is the easiest way for people on the eastern side of downtown to get north, and provides good reverse commute opportunities to the northeast if combined with the BSS extension.
"Especially since the Blvd. line is to be a part of the BSL express service, which the MFL has none of, nor any real potential for (only two tracks the whole trip). "
Not relevant to the project proposal. Not a problem.
My point is that I'll be happily surprised if phase 1 ever gets built, let alone phases 2 and 3. So I'm not sure the utility of the MFL extension or any extensions past Southampton are the most important issues right now.
That said...
Personally I think the connection between the two lines just makes sense. When I lived in the Northeast, I would have used the transfer had the line existed, because I work at 3rd and Chestnut. The new transfer would have to be easier than the crawling through the catacombs beneath City Hall.
As for extending the line to Neshimany Mall, if the money is there and residents don't fight it, sure, why not? Although I often thought a good connection to Franklin Mills Mall might be good, too.
Mark
Keep your fingers crossed.
Mark
Interurban Railroad
Commuter Railroad
Passenger Carrying Shortline Railroad
Thanks!
Chuck
You are mixing some new and old terms, e.g. what's the difference between a trolley & a LRV ? Not much.
Back in the early 1900s you had:
- Street cars ... in the city
- Surburbans ... went between cities that were fairly close
- Interurbans ... self powered gas or elect. between cities
Now you have:
- Commuter ... a surburban type of operation, either electric or coaches with a diesel, i.e. push-pull operation. They are also called EMUs.
- Shoreline East in CT is a kind of Interurban, but using push-pull. The last self-contained diesel commuter was the Budd SPV which they hoped would replace their RDC. Colorado-Railcar has come out with a DMU that they are trying to sell.
The why did he accept a rolled rail??? (sic)
And Rockaway Park. The last time I was at Rockaway was in two summer ago. People along Newport Ave community were nice and friendly. When step my first foot in that neighborhood, people say hi, how are you. Beaches? well I gotta say that its use to be cleaned, but now, you trash all over the sand dunes
This is no different than getting leery at groups or rowdy minorities (whatever age); it's bigotry, plain and simple.
There are 2 different issues here.
1. The vast majority of HB residents are law abiding.
2. A sizeable portion of those few people who are controlling figures in organized crime live in Howard Beach. This in now way negates statement #1.
Eff you, and the horse you rode in on. We don't use that term, in the neighborhoods you are referring to. Saying something like that, on the streets, could easily get you a busted nose. Wise up, chump.
Only if there is a GO.
Officially every other train days and weekends is to Far Rock, with 5 extras to Rockaway Park in the PM rush.
I believe the hero's name was Anthony Gallo. He witnessed a subway passenger being slashed on the face, jumped off the train at Atlantic Ave, and captured the slasher on the station platform. He held the slasher until police arrived.
It was apparently the John Walsh TV show. They never said which Atlantic Ave station or when the incident happened.
Does anyone posting here know more about this incident?
I learned a lot more from that article than I had from the TV show.
The article from September gave much more details.
Link here
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10062003.shtml#ACROSSTHEPOND
I need to find some fan pics somewhere, it looks like an attractive train for the high volume commuter market.
LOL yes the Jamaica Center Restroom WILL REALLY test your gag reflex. TH LIRR Restroom at Penn Station isn't as bad, but its up there. THe smell of urine and cleaning solution mixed its making me sick thinking about it.
EEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWW!!!!
I always knew WMATA would end up in the toilet...
One question... why the Yellow of all lines to get this first? (2000 Flushes Yellow? Looks like it defeats the purpose, if ya catch my meaning.)
Mark
That’s actually a new hi-tech feature called "Mercy Flush". It has been puposely incorporated to keep restroom air quality at an acceptable level. :-)
I know that Mark Feinman is planning on being there, but is anyone else here attending on Saturday Oct. 11th?
How about a definite maybe?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Steve Loitsch
I am trying my best to work out some problems so that I can attend.
We felt sure that wasn't you!
--Mark
Karl: Exactly what is this trolley meet. Are you planning on going?
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I also will check in at the information desk and see if they can page you.
Hope to see you.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Seriously, it was great to finally meet you in person after all of these years of our trading transit eMails. That ride on Red Arrow #76 was the greatest. Electric City's track sure is in great shape. I hope we can coordinate a visit to the Rockhill Trolley Museum next.
Did you find any books that you couldn't live without at the Steamtown Book Store?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He gave me a few old subway car pictures printed from a computer printer after I bought the book. He seemed like a nice guy, but I did not see a pipe and he was on the other side of the table from me so I did not notice a pipe odor.
I thought I recognized him from somewhere, so I asked him if he was on any of the MOD trips, and he said no.
Count your blessings. I've been on fan trips in Philly with him, and on Transit Museum fan trips as well. 'Nuff said.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
DOUBLE THANKS to chuchubob and Koi (whom came all the way from Princeton Junction NJ!!).
Christopher Rivera--- que paso, vato?
That musta been just the 17th time I'd seen the documentary since it first aired. LOL
VHS does that to me! : )
Being ON the ride.
Priceless.
I sensed a feeling of respect for the ultimate riders among those in the audience.
Yeah, me too. When Gena announced that the Ultimate Riders were there in the room, and everyone turned to look over at us, well, it is hard to explain, but it was cool.
I could have seen Subway Cool happening, first hand, but instead I had to suffer Freeway Bummer all afternoon. Doesn't it just figure.
Or did I miss the 100th Birthday of the subway already? HELP!!!
--Mark
He was neither. He was a terrible explorer and a piss-poor navigator who reached America purely through dumb luck. It's a significant event, but the man should not be celebrated for acheiving it.
There are many renowned Italians who should have holidays before Columbus.
Remember something, the guys who starred in those movies, AND wrote the script's were ITALIAN, you guys derived your OWN stereotypes. And lets not forget that Italian mob presence that ruined NYC for so many years.
Frankly Italian's have given me nothing but hell all of my life, and then you guys come out yelling "stereotype!" "Racist!" Oh come on, you guys have no grounds to be saying those things. When six million of you die in death camps, and then face racist assholes everyday of your life because of who you are, THEN you'll have something to cry about.
Who cares? I don't watch movies only because they have a subway in it, unlike CC, I have other interests.
But I don't remember those movies you mentioned because I'm too young (never heard of a VCR?), just that I don't care for them.
If the Americas didn't exist and instead some kind of Panthalassic Ocean lay in the way, then a voyage across it on an 80-foot boat would be impossible, Columbus underestimated the circumference of the Earth, and unfortunately, the actual circumference of the Earth had been known for quite some time.
In Columbus's day, most geographers still relied on Ptolemy, who posited that the "known world" stretched a
hundred and eighty degrees from east to west; the rest was water. This was a gross overstatement: the real
span of what Ptolemy meant by the "known world"-Eurasia and Africa-was only about a hundred and twenty
degrees. Still, even Ptolemy's calculations left far too much ocean to be traversed in an eighty-foot boat.
Columbus rejected Ptolemy in favor of Pierre d'Ailly, an early-fifteenth-century French astrologer, who maintained that land extended for two hundred and twenty-five degrees, water for only a hundred and thirtyfive. From there, Columbus argued that the travels of Marco Polo proved that China stretched farther east, that
Japan was thirty degrees east of China, and that, because he planned to embark from the Canary Islands, he could subtract nine more degrees of water. When all this was not sufficient, he argued that d'Ailly had been too conservative all along.
By now, Columbus had succeeded in shrinking the ocean down to just sixty degrees. Yet still he was not done. In one last, Panglossian twist, he chose to follow not the standard-and roughly accurate-measure of a degree developed by the Greeks but a slightly lower figure, which had been put forward by the ninth-century Arab
astronomer Al-Farghani. Conveniently, he also decided that Al-Farghani's calculations had been done in Roman miles as opposed to nautical miles, which are a fifth longer. On the basis of these and other manipulations, Columbus concluded that the distance from the the Canary Islands westward to Japan was less than twenty-seven
hundred miles. It was really thirteen thousand miles.1
brought real civilization with him despite what the revisonists say.
The only revisionism was the one that accompanied the 400th anniversary of Columbus's Voyage in 1892, such as the myth that Columbus was a trailblazer who was the first to say that the world was round.
As for real civilization, at least the Aztecs and Incas called their human sacrifice by its real name instead of calling it by some euphemism like Inquisition.
1The New Yorker, October 14, 2002. THE LOST MARINER; The self-confidence that kept Columbus going was his undoing. By Elizabeth Kolbert
Redbirds or bust!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Midday SIR headways are pretty atrocious, BTW.
Koi
This is a manhattan bound 7 express train. The Next. Stop is. Grand central, 42 Street.
Someone messed up the paperwork. They went to 207 and were loaded on a barge.
People should post sources if they want to be believed.
Yay! Tonight I'll look back to last week and see who posted those false rumors and then I'll ridicule them mercilessly!
Along the way there were many photographers taking pics of the run-by. If you see someone giving the peace sign at the Railfan window, it might have been me.
I got some pics I will post later on when I process and upload them.
www.forgotten-ny.com
CG
www.forgotten-ny.com
None. All of the R-143's have been delivered. According to a source I spoke with 2 hours ago, the R-143's will be staying where they are.
Of course in the bad old days from '78-'84 you were lucky to get a train correctly marked. Sometimes, the train would have the letter written on a piece of paper and taped to the front.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I still remember this one time I saw on the front of a R68, where the sign was supposed to be, was a piece of paper with "Q" written on it.
For example, I knew I was always getting a RR while waiting at say, Union Square because I'd look down the track and see two green lights at the top of the approaching train.
Anyone else remember this? What cars in particular had this feature?
www.forgotten-ny.com
In the old days every subway or el car had marker lights.
Color combos were duplicated on different divisions because there were more trains than color combos. For example, the old Jamaica train before it was known as the J or the 15 displayed two green marker lights.
Yes, As soon as the slants started to appear.
Now the 32s and the 38s are the only cars with them.
Do they still set them correctly, or where they abolished with the GOHs
Elias
The Redbirds are the only ones that still have them now.
In recent years, marker lights were set to red-red, although I saw a 2 train in 1991 with an old red-white setting.
-- Ed Sachs
Also, as to your question, on Real railroads, market lamps typically had a slightly different use. Back when the timetable was king, scheduled trains might be run in sections, if demand outstripped the capacity of the normal consist (this was usually for passenger trains). If a train was displaying green flags or marker lamps it told the tower operators that there was another section following and to route it accordingly. Moreover, if a train was displaying white flags or marker lamps it was an unscheduled extra ad the operator should not therefore treat it like the next train on his timetable. Diesel engines (most notably Alco's) were outfitted with marker lamps up until the mid-1960's. In fact you can see the lamp holes blanked on more than a few diesel units in operation today. There is still one marker lamp left and this is the red lamp which is placed at the end of the train. When trains pass all railroad employees are suposted to observe the red marker (noradays usually a flashing red FRED). If it is not there they are to communicate with the train as it might have left part of itself behind, which in unsignaled territory is a BAD thing.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/backpages.html
I enjoyed the page about the Wo d F ir. I always lamented that I was too young to go to the World's Fair (I was -17 in the fair's second year).
Is this correct, or were there other "official" purposes?
Naturally you would expect two red lights at the end of the train, but this was not always the case.
In places there were two east bound tracks and two westbound tracks, and so a combination of Red and Amber lights were displayed to tell the following train which track the train with the lights displayed was on.
Red-Amber told them that they were on the left track.
Amber-Red told them that they were on the right track.
Thus you could overtake and pass a train that was not directly in front of you.
Elias
They weren't actually used for anything, though, and they were supposed to be set to red-and-red no matter what (though an occasional train had them set to other colors).
Sean@Temple
Sean@Temple
No, you're not a bad railfan, just incomplete ... opps I shouldn't use that word for someone who is going to college
I hope you meant braking.
Arrgh, I spent all last night working on my systems homework!!! I knew I should have gone out and watch trolleys for a little while!
Oh well, thanks very much for reporting that, I'll have to keep more of a lookout, especially now that it'll be getting cold and I'll be using SEPTA more.
Check it out: First here (middle three photos), and then I saw the other one, which you can see here (middle three photos plus the first one in the bottom row.
I first saw it on the Brighton line a year or two ago, one weekend when all SB service was express. Lo and behold, there it was at Parkside.
Slurp!
#8667 S 63rd Street Shuttle
Didn’t see it posted on here yet, so figured I would introduce the subject. Doubt it will make too much of a dent in Amtrak patronage…being a 27-hour NY-Chicago service going via Washington DC. Interesting that they are re-extending it at all, what with Congress playing hardball insofar as funding once more. Guess Gunn was taking advantage of the fact that it now has single-level equipment due to the Superliner shortage, and may very well have been planned on his part.
New Yorkers already have a direct train to Chicago - the Lake Shore Limited (and used to have a second one - the Broadway Limited, which visited ittsburgh on its way). I imagine the Cardinal offers a timetable more convenient for some than the Lake Shore Limited??
AEM7
Although really, the Cardinal isn't very "direct" at all, given its routing and schedule. The real gain is that now if you're headed to one of the intermediate stops on the Cardinal, you no longer have to get to DC first and change trains.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
The KY Cardinal ran on days when the Cincinnati Cardinal (the train referred to in the first post) does not run -- on days that it does it ran as a portion of Cincinnati Cardinal up to Indy and then continued with a single locomotive to Louisville. KY has so far not funded the train, and recently Louisville sold the downtown Union station to a private developer.
KY Cardinal needs some substantial improvement before people will ride it, and KY and IN both need to chip in.
No money, no train.
AEM7
Beginning on Nov 3., the B division will be picking jobs for a work program which includes the service changes caused by the reopening of the Manhattan Bridge for Sixth Ave. service.
The B division will also pick jobs for a work program starting some time early summer. This is rumored to be the pick that coincides with the reopening of Stillwell.
Third pick will be the normal Fall pick.
With about 400 T/O's and C/R's hired since the current changes on the Manhattan Bridge, it's going to take alot of time to qualify everyone for next year.
But it's all good news for the 40+ T/O's from Queens, Brooklyn, and Long Island, who have been trying to transfer from the A to B division for over two years. 2004 should finally be their year. Especially with three picks.
The pick office agreed to let them pick over if it happened again.
The case did not go to arbitration so in TA style they might not honor it but ....
They showed up to the A division pick to pick into the A. Jobs were open. Pick office denied them the opportunity to pick over saying that since they had never picked a job in the division they started in, they can't transfer.
They filed a grievance, so the TA came back, and said, "OK, we'll let them transfer as road extra. In fact, we'll let anyone hired on the same date as them transfer too". As a result, one or two guys actually transfered over even though they were not able to pick a job in the A.
Or a section pick where only the south picks.
You can't pick in. Only those already there can pick and if they run out of jobs you fall extra on those days.
**********************************************************************
Hmmm, so now it's just on hold. When it a strike not a strike? When David Gunn's playing political poker.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10062003.shtml#Strike
**********************************************************************
Wait a second...isn't this guy head of NJT?????
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10062003.shtml#CBO
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And there were 40,000 some road related deaths in 2002. Hmm, I'm thinking of a way to save thousands of lives and it dosen't involving spending billions to bomb a forgien nation.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10062003.shtml#In
**********************************************************************
Man, Amtrak is becomming more and more like ::shudders:: an Airline.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10062003.shtml#Amtrakcuts
**********************************************************************
Part are good, then make things like work.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10062003.shtml#Amtrakorders
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I'm also looking over the FEC as a good stock investment.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10062003.shtml#South
Anyhow, should be good, do you know if the FEC tracks meet at any of the future metrorail stations? that would really be a boost and incentive.
**********************************************************************
Hmm, looks like they're trying to mirror MARC which HAS NO FUCKING WEEKEND SERVICE AHHHHHRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!! HOW IS SOMEONE SUPOSTED TO VISIT THE SITES IN DC WITHOUT HAVING TO DEAL WITH FUCKING DC TRAFFIC AND PARKING AND THAT WHOLE NOT HAVING A CAR PROBLEM!!!!
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10062003.shtml#VREmay
Center for National Response
Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The T and MUNI deserve a medal for putting up with the UMTA junk for so many years.
--Mark
-Robert King
--Mark
-William A. Padron
["111th Street-Corona"]
You sure? I rode that set Wednesday evening, in precisely the same order Mr. Padron posted.
Anyway, I wonder if any of the following rumors are true:
1. Upon entering the auditorium, people were given the option of putting a brown paper bag over their head to avoid public humiliation.
2. The Transit Graffiti squad had their specially trained chihuahua, Rex, who went around sniffing for spray paint.
3. Randy Kennedy was there signing his just released book on railfans.
4. On a serious note, was the woman who sold her stories in the audience?
5. I heard that the man who is the mime, got up to ask a question, but stood motionless and speechless for about a minute before he was removed from the room.
6. Were any of the spray painters present and did the police swarm over them seeking to fathom their inner thoughts?
7. Was the mystery cat present? How did they get the cat to pose on the rail?
But just to humor you, I will answer your questions.
1. Yes
2. No
3. He wasn't there because as a railfan, he can't relate to other people.
4. Yes
5. No
6. The police couldn't, the SubTalkers got to them first and beat them up
7. No. Money talks.
Someone from the production team posted here that the video was not just for railfans, but for people who have never been to New York or on the subway.
What vision of the subway did the video give?
1. fearful prospect of railfans at loose
2. pickpockets
3. vandals
4. people sleeping on subway cars and living in the subway tunnel (Was the Viet Nam vet there?)
5. people feeding cats on the platforms
Oh yeah. Were the Kooks there, and they get a chance to witness?
Some bitch if they do, some bitch of they don't. They chose to show the real world of New York’s Subway System, good and bad, that is their choice. They were only allocated 1 hour to do that and thus the negative commentary done, but they had 44 hours of footage, if they did a 5 hour special they would've been able to show more and you might have understood the exact meaning for showing this. But let’s get real; I'd rather see something that shows both sides of the story then a pretty pro-MTA version or a dark version of the subway system.
As stated earlier, you should’ve gone instead of making such comments as you did in the first post.
I don't agree with this statement at all. Why do you think these yards provide inadequate care to the fleet?
--Mark
--Mark
1. originally was gonna be about the history of the subway
2. Roger decided he's rather do it about the culture of the subway
3. wanted to have each "character" tell their own story
4. in order to do #3 and also show more of the Ultimate Ride, Roger begged for the length of the show to be increased to two hours
5. the request was denied, so in order to fit it into one hour, he had to cut a lot of stuff out, and also use a narrator to move the show along
6. Roger justified the inclusion of the "graffiti artists, graffiti vandals, whatever you want to call them" in the program because they are a part of the subway culture (he claims there are a lot of people who still do graffiti down there) and as a journalist it is his duty to document it. He said he wouldn't say how he got that footage.
7. He also said that people in the show were questioning "why he put two homos in there", but I forget what his comments to us were about this comment
This whole speech was pretty choppy so I probably left some stuff out. Maybe others can add some info. Also, some of the above was in response to questions asked of Roger during the Q&A.
(I agree with that recall).
LOL!!!!
You know, this is right up there with photography in the subway as far as non-existent "laws" that the police like to enforce go. These cops need to be eductated that the consumer is permitted to remove the tags after purchase, so they can stop going around harrassing innocent pillow owners.
1. Upon entering the auditorium, people were given the option of putting a brown paper bag over their head to avoid public humiliation.
I wish that would have been stated in advance; I may have gone :).
heypaul would NEVER joke about such a serious matter.
There are no platforms that are less than 3 feet wide.
Are you talking Broadway Brooklyn? Not clear how you would see anything going on in the subway if you meant Broadway Manhattan. Are you afraid they'll fall over the railing and land on you?
http://subway.com.ru/ave_h/pages/aveh008.htm
http://subway.com.ru/ave_h/pages/aveh026.htm
He must mean Marcy Avenue on the JMZ Broadway Brooklyn. They are narrow, but I'm sure they are a bit more than 3 feet, but they are narrow on that platform, or as dangerous as it sounds.
The extreme ends of the Knickerbocker and Central Ave stations on the Myrtle El are also very narrow, but it is only the extreme edges for a few feet, unlike Marcy which is a maybe half the station.
However, I can see his fear if Marcy was still unrebuilt like before the 1980's!:
Between the wood and that crossbar railing, it must've felt like you were going to shake off the el when a train went through the station!
I meant NOT as dangerous as it sounds.
The Sutter Avenue station is a microcosm of early-20th century BRT construction. Ornate period ironwork adorns the quaint wooden crosswalk beneath the south end of the station. The hook-armed lamps at the station's north end are still there, but need repair. Be careful when accessing this end of the platform - there is an area of almost no clearance between an iron fence and the platform's edge - face the fence and hold on with both hands, then shimmy along - slowly and carefully. Sutter Avenue, opened December 28, 1906, two side platforms.
I think the text for Sutter may be a bit dated, as the lamps are replaced with the below goosenecks:
And here's a photo of the abandoned exit too, it only still exists on the Canarsie bound platform, the one on the Manhattan side has been removed and cemented over:
The great old railings downstairs are all still there though, and the crossunder is still made of wood, at least as of this past April:
Sutter and Livonia are great old stations, a lot of the old BRT/BMT features are still there, like those great canopy supports:
I think the text for Sutter may be a bit dated, as the lamps are replaced with the below goosenecks:
And here's a photo of the abandoned exit too, it only still exists on the Canarsie bound platform, the one on the Manhattan side has been removed and cemented over:
The great old railings downstairs are all still there though, and the crossunder is still made of wood, at least as of this past April:
Sutter and Livonia are great old stations, a lot of the old BRT/BMT features are still there, like those great canopy supports:
Mark
Does anyone remember in the early 1970's when this station was painted in polka dots? I remember purple, blue, pink, yellow, all colors, in different sizes on the ceiling and columns (but not on tiles). Does anyone have a picture of that??
I think there are some plans to put the base of the Statue of Liberty on the Manhattan platform and build a spiral stairway inside the statue that will allow passengers to exit through the torch on street level. The torch will have a green globe mounted on top, which will signify that the entrance is open 24 hours. Engineers are working on a spiral inclinator which will make the statue fully accessible.
RonFormerlyOfBayside will be very pleased :^)
The cat is doing just fine, evidence of some nibbles in two of the four cans are present. Only in NYC do we care about these heartwarming things, like "adopting" a subway cat.
Sorry, but that's a fairly rediculous thing to say.
Sorry to debunk a common belief, but adult rats - whether in the subway or otherwise - seldom weigh much over a pound. Nor is there much variation from rat to rat. I suspect that because rats are considered distasteful, especially in a fairly confined area like the subway, people have a tendency to perceive them as larger than they really are.
Even in Chinatown?
I have to look for a 10-foot pole not to touch that with
Some time back ages ago, someone in Louisiana had the idea of importring nutrias from South America to grow for their fur. A few escaped, and now these monster-sized rats have run amok, being a major nuissance and outcompeting the native muskrats.
A friend of mine lives near Lake Charles and his small town has a nutria fur festival every year, believe it or not. He's never been selected King Fur, though.
Mark
Bob Saccamano sells Nutria hats down by Battery Park. They're not sable, but the difference is negligible.
"No, nutria is a kind of rat."
Do you realize it's been a year since the first Subtalk Day?
I've never seen it, or him (in the last 15 years or so), so I cannot supply proff.
I've read somewhere that mama cats have to show her kittens where the litterbox is, as soon as the eyes are open. Apparently the use is hard wired in the domesticated cat. The feral ones I can't vouch for.
We have a small colony of cats in the Valley, complete with the little old lady in tennis shoes who feeds them. Our track super at BSM has been on a mission in regards of the felines. He catches them, takes them to a vet and has them neutered. He then releases them back to the Valley. He's been doing this for 10 years (and occaisionaly gets guff from the LOLITS) and the kitty population is getting smaller.
Life in the Big City.
I've also heard that baby piglets have a natural instinct to use cat boxes if raised indoors.
This being Subtalk, we should be able to get a first-hand account.
Regards,
Jimmy
Yeah, we were adopted by strays too. And they're always the best!
I was always disappointed though that New York City traded in its plain old Norwegians for "Super rats" in the Bronx and never bothered to undertake a crash program to create "Super kitties" ... except for that guy in the PJ's who got busted last week for having a tiger in his tank. Only shows to go ya that SOMEBODY was trying to do something about Unca Fred's favorite pets. :)
Are you kidding? This little fella can operate an SBK loco with his eyes shut. As for the academy, well Sammy meowed this out just for you Selkirk:
"I AIN'T GONNA BE NO BEAKIE. MEOW."
True words from a West End Tabby.
Regards,
Jimmy
--Mark
According to your website, you have totally inaccurate subway directions. How can you explain the 5 is running to Brooklyn when it doesn't on weekends? Or the N to Astoria (since the past 2 weeks, the MTA web site tells you that there is no N service this weekend). The M train does not go to Pacific St or any station in Manhattan or the southern portion of Brooklyn. The 9 and Z lines do not run outside of rush hour. The V does not run on weekends.
Shame on you guys. You should consult a subway map before providing accurate travel directions. Thank you.
That's no longer the case now.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I see the Brooklyn Army Terminal is one the featured sites. Isn't that open to the public anyway? Or are they giving a guided tour? Four years ago a bunch of Subtalkers went in there as part of our South Brooklyn Railway tour. Nobody dared kicked us out.
You would now be kicked out.
In December, 2000, the SubTalk group was allowed into the lobby to see the Elvis exhibit, but rushed out. On subsequent tours, the group wasn't allowed past the gate. The guards even gave me a hard time while I was doing some consulting work for EDC (but I did get to go on the roof :))!
In case anyone doesn't know, BAT houses an ex-LIRR passenger car and generator car, lettered for "Brooklyn City Railroad."
I'm glad I got to access some scenes for
www.forgotten-ny.com
before the inevitable crackdown came.
I'll be visiting some sites for ohny, but it sems poorly organized. On one weekend there is simply not enough time to visit everything in Manhattan being offered. It should be at least two weekends...
#8667 S 63rd Street Shuttle
Robert
You mean send the L to 71-Continental or 145/St Nick.
More economical might be:
L
Chambers St, Manhtn
Rockaway Pkwy, Bklyn
You mean send the L to 71-Continental or 145/St Nick.
More economical might be:
L
Chambers St, Manhtn
Rockaway Pkwy, Bklyn
Split 2 Service, AM and PM Hours:
241-34 Sts
137 St-Flatbush Av
Nights, 2 Service runs from 241 St to Flatbush Av (Normal)
241 St bound #2s originate from the s/b exp platform at 34th St.
#2 trains to the Bronx also run express 3rd Av-E180th St, all weekend with single track operation through 3rd Av.
137th St bound #2s make all stops in both directions from Chambers to 137th St.
#3 Service affected only S/B: Local 96-Chambers Sts.
No #5 Service 149th-180th Sts, all weekend. #5s from Bowling Green routed to Woodlawn on the 4, but we may or may not see actual #5s. Based on observations from a previous GO, one may notice every other #4 running from Woodlawn to Bowling Green and turn back for Woodlawn. Shuttle service available from E180th St to Dyre Av.
-Stef
P.S. R-142s invade the 1?!?
-STEF
"This is a City College-137St bound 2 train,the next stop is 116St-Columbia University. -pause- Stand clear of the closing doors please!"
K.Usagi,
The Manhattanville Hill Billy
-Stef
I asked if he knew anything abou the R-142 coming to the 7 his answer was"from what i know R-142 will come to the 7 thats why we are installing the CTBC .....it will be all R-142 in the future when the CTBC is finished and ready.
In conclusion NO R-142 This weekend(was impossible anyway) ,but in 2004 and 2005 we will see them coming to the 7.
Besides, if you point to a plow on a modern freight engine and call it a cow-catcher, you're likely to be at least a source of amusement to the crew, since any cow stupid enough to be caught on the tracks will likely end up much like this horse:
http://krugtales.50megs.com/rrpictale/p010420/p010420.htm
Would it have been possible for NYCTA to almost directly take a 2200 and run it on it's track? Or are the gauge requirements different?
how does the peoplemoverwork? I am not sure of this
I'd consider that more of a ride than a transportation system per se.
It has been out of service almost ten years now. Using the same trackways, but modified, they put in a ride called "Rocket Rods" which was a high-speed go-kart, basically. And that ride lasted a year before it was removed. the trackways are still there, collecting dust.
As I said, it was not fast and exciting, even though it provided a nice view of Tomorrowland and parts of Fantasyland.
The Monorail is a real rapid transit solution, and I've heard that the designer offered to build one in Los Angeles for cost and a small royalty, but the powers in charge turned him down. Remember, that was in the 1950's, when the automobile and freeways were king.
I agree with Peter, the "Peoplemover" in Walt Disney World's magic Kingdom is more of a ride than a transportation system, and it leaves you off right where you started. In Disneyland (California) the peoplemover was the same as the one in Florida. It was replaced by a new ride, "Rocket Rods". I rode Rocket Rods once around 1997, and itwas closed each time I went back. The last time I was there in the beginning of this year the ride was not in use, and hadn't been in a while because trees were growing over the old trackway near the monorail station. There was no signs of the ride at it's old entrance. Rocket Rods was a flop (It always seemed to be broken, even when in use), and the old trackways sit unused.
Orlando Disney World monorail
http://www.disneylandsource.com/tom/people.html
It was a slow moving "ride"...but apparently it has been replaced by something more modern
The miniature city is General Electric's "Progressland". It started out at the 1964-1965 New York World's Fair, and in 1967 debuted at Disneyland in the GE "Carousel of Progress". It was moved to Disney World in the 1970's.
Regards,
Jimmy
Posted on:10/10/03 3:28:34 PMDue to a police investigation at Bedford Avenue, service has been suspended between Broadway Junction and 14th Street in both directions.
Due to a police investigation at Bedford Avenue, L service has been suspended between Broadway Junction and 14th Street in both directions.
(I think they meant 8th Ave/14th St, there are five stations under 14th st)
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/10/international/asia/10ROAD.html?8hpib
Mark
Chuck Greene
Mark
til next time
A TSQ-QP shuttle does not make much sense because the vast majority of riders live near the end of the lines. A Flushing-Queensboro Plaza shuttle might make more sense but increased 60th St service was ruled out by the soon to be started 11th St connection to the IND. However they should have added an ability for locals from Flushing to reach the upper level without the need for reversing direction.
The only layover track was the BMT relay track. It did not have an easy connection to the south side tracks. OTOH, the express track for the Astoria line provides such a function for BMT trains.
Either:
- 59th St - QBP
- Bridge - QBP - Astoria
- 42nd St - QBP - Flushing
Or:
- 59th St - QBP - Astoria
- Bridge - QBP
- 42nd St - QBP - Flushing
Or even:
- 59th St - QBP - Astoria
- Bridge - QBP - Flushing
- 42nd St - QBP
Anyway, scrapping the BMT shuttles was a good idea!
I have always looked forward to your posts.
Elias
www.freewebs.com/tstanyc
It's basically a site about what I wanna do in the future concearning transit. But please! Remember it is not completed(especially the ferry and regional rail sections), and will always have something new at the absolute least, once a month. I really wanna read what you guys think about it, so please, feel free to post feedback or email it to me at monkmonk438@hotmail.com
It might not be the best looking, but I want to hear your thoughts about it.
til next time
Adam
Bill "Newkirk"
That sunset shot is stunning!
til next time
And the R1/9 series were right there behind them on my list!
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]
"I could have guessed that part.":)
R-32.
R-32.
Regards,
Jimmy
MARTA's latest stock is really cool, too.
Mark
Note: I don't know if the R9's have "Arnines" as a nickname, so somebody decipher this, please.
Adam
Apparently, the R-11/R-34 are the least popular cars in the world! I do have to admit they were kinda ugly, but still...
Please explain your reasoning behind this conclusion. I didn't see that question asked anywhere in the poll. The question posed was "What's your favorite subway car?"
To me, the R-11's were what a "proper R-10" would be. They convey the strength of the R-10 with a bit of design flair that was not over the top. Unfortunately, I only recall riding them once when I was a child. I think even more than gunning for the railfan spot on an R40 Slant, I would cherish a ride on the old gal.
The R-11 - a car ahead of it's time.
Regards,
Mark Valera
I take exception to your statement that the R-11's were ugly pieces of junk based on this poll. The R-11's were only 10 of a kind experimentals that saw limited service throughout their life. Besides, the majority of those polled probably never rode or saw them before they were retired.
Since being the second subway car made of stainless steel, seeing a stainless steel subway car in the late 1940's and 1950's was quite a rare sight indeed.
The C-Types were ugly !
Bill "Newkirk"
Sure there are!
R-2: R-1 trucks
R-3: "Miscellaneous service cars"
R-5: R-4 trucks
R-8: Crane car
What about the R-6-1, R-6-2, R-6-3?
What is everyone's LEAST favorite subway car?
Prewars, Brightliners and Redbirds at the top...
R10: 7.84%
R32: 7.19%
R36: 6.54%
R1-9: 5.23%
R30: 5.23%
R40: 5.23%
R33: 4.58%
R46: 3.92%
R29: 3.27%
R68: 3.27%
R142: 3.27%
R16: 2.61%
R26: 2.61%
R28: 2.61%
R38: 2.61%
R44: 2.61%
R62: 2.61%
R143: 2.61%
R12: 1.96%
R14: 1.96%
R15: 1.96%
R17: 1.96%
R27: 1.96%
R42: 1.96%
R21: 1.31%
R22: 1.31%
R110A/R130: 1.31%
MARTA: 1.31%
T1: 1.31%
Triplex: 1.31%
PA1: 1.31%
PA2: 1.31%
PA3: 1.31%
Hi-V: 1.31%
R11/R34: 0.65%
R110B/R131: 0.65%
...and R-11's & R-110B's at the bottom.
That's all I have to say about that.
30-2273-3 MTA Work Train R-17 2-car Add-on $99.95
30-2274-3 MTA World's Fair R-36 2-car Add-on $99.95. This is the set that everyone is supposedly waiting for.
20-98381 MTA Flat Car w/R-36 World's Fair Subway Car $69.95
20-2283-3 MTA R-32 2-car Add-on $149.95. This set puzzles me because I thought it had already been issued earlier with a different catalog number.
Perhaps the Volume 2 catalog will have a new subway set.
Regards,
Jimmy
Thanx in advance
R-32.
Of course, you could tell them apart by car numbers.
R-12: 5703-5802
R-14: 5803-5952
-William A. Padron
["Willets Point"]
Chuck
The Buffalo Bill's, Whiskey Pete's, and Prima Donna casinos on I-15 at the California - Nevada state line have two completely different "thingies" that they call both monorails!
Neither is a monorail.
One is a horizontal, cable-pulled "elevator" running on a concrete roadway type affair. (Circus Circus on the Las Vegas strip also has these contraptions and they, too, call them monorails.)
The other is what LOOKS like a monorail train running on two rails and wooden ties!! They just re-used their old western-steam-train trackways/tracks!
They have those people movers at TPA. Yes, they have rubber tires too, and they run on concrete slabs with a concentric electric rail.
R-32
R-32.
Automated Guideway Train?
All i know is it's slow, and when you use the one in Vegas, the thing feels like it's flying at 90 through that tunnel.
Don't monorail use rubber too?
It didn't seem slow to me. I thought it was pretty cool, especially with the leather straphangers.
First [non-revnue] train over the new trackage
2 trains passing English style [left-hand side]
til next time
Rock Park Shuttle you want? I've got a photo of one of those on the Brighton Line from today...i'll upload it sometime tomorrow[today]...
-Stef
wayne
--Mark
I thought most, if not all R-68's assigned to the Franklin Shuttle had their signboxes removed and signle one piece sign substituted for it.
Bill "Newkirk"
I noticed that too. The TA never fails to amaze me.
Bill "Newkirk"
I am hoping that they get caught. NO CHANCE OF EVER GETTING A TA JOB.
Oh no the haven't. (and thay already are employed by the TA.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
O.Zamora
The Van Courtlandt Madman
Dante,what time were you on the train when you took those pics!? Cause I sure as hell never saw you!And yeah,you can see just how the crews are just about impossible!I was the one who changed it on Saturday since every single Q train used on that Prospect Pk-BB shuttle had the signs as normal so I decided to correct it.The south rollsign got stuck where it was when I was moving it to leave it blank.Of course I changed it to yellow S but then I thought it was too damn dull and changed it to the blue S.Oh and BTW,the H IS on the rollsigns.
Using a mannequin with the same electrical resistance as a human, using real urine (10,000 ohm resistance) fro a plastic reservoir and a third rail powered to 650 volts at a ralroad museum in San Francisco, the show's hosts showed that:
1) Urine certainly does conduct a current, but only as a solid stream, not droplets.
2) If you urinate on the third rail from a few inches away, don't wear rubber insulating boots, you will receive a shock. 45 milliamps is what you'd expect from third rail current (given Ohm's Law). Doing it from the station platform down onto the track? The risk is minimal to nonexistent.
3)Theoretically, there is a risk to track workers who crouch and aim right at the third rail. But, according to NYC Transit, no documented case has ever been reported of a person electrocuting himself/herself this way.
Whay would anyone do that?
The chief track superintendent of NYCTA was interviewed on the show, and he confirmed that track workers are warned about the alleged danger.
R-32.
See JAE BOON LEE, Administratrix of the Estate of SANG YEUL LEE, Deceased, vs. CHICAGO TRANSIT AUTHORITY.
Once again, reality trumps theory. Will the Discovery Channel say "whoops" when some idiot, "Jackass"-style, decides to impress his friends by urinating on the third rail because TV said it was safe?
The description says: “The decedent’s body was found on the elevated (“L”) tracks located on the CTA’s Ravenswood line at or near 4700 North Kedzie Avenue. John Costantini, a Chicago Fire Department paramedic field officer, testified that the decedent lay perpendicular to the northwest-bound CTA tracks, his head pointing north. The decedent's feet were near the third rail, pointing in its direction. (The third rail carries 600 volts of electricity and provides power to the train cars as they traverse grade crossings). The decedent's pants zipper was open, and his penis was exposed. The pathology report listed the immediate cause of death as electrocution. At the time of his death, the decedent had a 0.341 percent blood alcohol concentration which placed him in the stupor classification of intoxication.”
It’s quite possible that he fell onto the rail, while trying to fish willie out, and the muscle contractions from the shock (or he just managed to push himself off) allowed him to move before he died?
Interestingly the report quotes another supposed incident this time in NYC, without citing anything reliably proven.
Myth becomes legend, legend becomes…
John
In addition, the Discovery Channel's demonstration proved that you could electrocute yourself by urinating, but only if you created a solid stream of urine. You have to be pretty close to the third rail to do it.
I suppose the risk would be higher for women.
I forgot Ohm's Law. What does that translate to in volts? I was once given 20 volts and it didn't bother me...
Resistance of Urine is 10,000 Ohms
Voltage - 650 volts in the experiment they ran
So: 650 volts / 10,000 ohms = 0.065 (65 milliamps)
Oh, wait..why did they say 45 on the show? Maybe I got that detail wrong. Maybe they said 65.
Laden or Unladen?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.42 Now Available!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.42 Now Available!
Mind you, whizzing onto the tracks won't win you any friends, either. It could win you a summons.
Oh, agreed. Mind you, whizzing onto the tracks won't win you any friends, either. It could win you a summons.
Sorry, my comment was a (now-obviously-obscure) reference to a famous bit from Ren and Stimpy. My original comment was a reference to Monty Python. Too late for me to be posting, I guess...
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.42 Now Available!
Never mind.
73,
Peter
I used to help out an electrician in my youth, and, stupid me, managed to hit all 120 volts in a circuit breaker box in a dirt-floor basement. Threw me across the floor....
Needless to say, I don't mess with electrical stuff anymore.
Now from a sexist standpoint, wouldn't the practice be more dangerous for women than it is for men?
The case described here is the one people often refer to when saying that a man in Chicago died by urinating on the third rail -- but it isn't clear that's what happened. With a Blood Alcohol Content of .341, this guy may have just fallen or stepped onto the 3rd rail while relieving himself.
http://www.kentlaw.edu/classes/rbrill/TORTS-FALL2002/evening/sup_mat/ctabrief.html
CG
1) Urine has a resistance of 10Kohms.....no, materials do not have
a fixed resistance. They have a resistivity expressed in
ohms x square units per linear unit. A short fat chunk of something
has less resistance than a long skinny one.
2) "Only" 45 mA: 45 mA is a very dangerous current. 45mA across
the heart will easily cause cardiac arrest.
3) Droplets vs stream: Whether the flow breaks up into droplets
or is continuous depends on a lot of factors including the
flow rate. There are plenty of documented cases of firefighters
hosing down high-voltage equipment and getting nailed through
the metal hose nozzle, from many feet away.
You must be drunk tonight. Normally you're pretty good with this stuff but you blew it with this post.
"Urine has a resistance of 10Kohms.....no, materials do not have
a fixed resistance. They have a resistivity expressed in
ohms x square units per linear unit. A short fat chunk of something
has less resistance than a long skinny one."
And how does the simplification they did disprove the experiment? Answer: it doesn't.
"Only" 45 mA: 45 mA is a very dangerous current. 45mA across
the heart will easily cause cardiac arrest."
That's true, and they said that on the show.
"There are plenty of documented cases of firefighters
hosing down high-voltage equipment and getting nailed through
the metal hose nozzle, from many feet away."
Hosing something down with a fire hose, yes. In fact, the Discovery show's methods and results are consistent with what you just said. In fact, they proved it on a smaller scale exactly as you describe.
Go back to bed, take two aspirin, and reread your post in the morning - and then wipe the egg off your face.
BTW, I really do enjoy your posting.
Maybe it is your rendition of what they said, as I didn't
see the original. However, when the show is supposedly
conducting a scientific experiment but they can't get
a simple thing like the concept of resistivity right,
I don't trust ANYTHING further they have to say on the subject.
If a carpenter came to your house and showed you a picture of
a nice cabinet that he made, but didn't know which end of his
hammer to hit the nail with, would you trust his work?
Our of curiosity, how did they perform the stream vs droplet
experiment? Did they use stop-action photography on an
actual urine stream from a human make, or did they construct
an accurate urinary tract model?
Sorry, you're wrong.
"Maybe it is your rendition of what they said, as I didn't
see the original."
That's possible. It's also possible that the show, intended for a lay audience of scientific illiterates, edited too much and left some details out that to you and me matter. Of course, one can write to the show's producer and protest if that is the case. I was comfortable with what they did.
"Our of curiosity, how did they perform the stream vs droplet
experiment? "
They recreated a stream of urine with a plastic reservoir and enough pressure to simulate the force of a stream of urine. Thge aperture was about right for an average urethra. After the stream is ejected, they then focused on what was happening at and near the third rail.
That's certainly the weak point in the argument.
If someone recently had some salty food, that figure might be off by a factor of 10,000 or so.
It doesnt matter. The value used is a decent average, and overall does not affect the validity of their experiment.
The myth they dealt with really is mostly a myth. You really have to work at dying this way.
Take a look at your post about standard deviations. If the average resistance is 10,000 ohms but the standard deviation is high, some will feel nothing while for others life will be over.
It won't help the guy with the salty urine to know that on average he should still be fine.
No it won't. In the first place, you'd have to eat a hell of a lot of salt, and in the second place, you can't generate the necessary urine stream to do it from the platform. A horse could, but not you.
It's really a non-problem.
A small amount of salt dissolved in water tremendously lowers its electrical resistance. It doesn't take much to make a huge difference.
However, I will defer to your expertise on the question of the amount of urine a person can produce.
For my part, I will relegate that question to the AFWIDNPWTKTA* archives.
* = Questions For Which I Do Not Particularly Wish To Know The Answers
True, but the kidneys have to perform the translation for you.
Maybe we can have our resident statistician, Stephen Baumann, analyze the results!
So did a lot of us at Branford, since it could MU with the R-17. Unfortately, save for a couple that were cut down into flatcars with cabs, there are none left.
Not counting the "El Caminos," the same as BMTman's projected score on the motorman exam: 0.
I'm sure one could have been obtained, had BERA attempted to get one. Remember, it is a trolley museum, and not everyone on the board of directors is amenable to increasing the size of the rapid transit collection -- or keeping any of it, for that matter.
Regards,
Jimmy
Made an oops on the original post. Sorry.
Regards,
Jimmy
wayne
Hey guys, I was doing a search on eBay for subway stuff, and found this guy who is selling, and has sold, a lot of old/antique NYC subway stuff....a lot of station signs, roll signs, whistles, etc.
I then remembered this post from back in May that there was stuff stolen....perhaps I'm just a tad suspicious....but I've seen similarities between what was listed as stolen, and the items I've seen on eBay. I wouldn't mind a few of you just checking eBay for yourself and see what you think. Perhaps you may have already noticed and this is old news...but just thought I'd mention it.
Go to eBay, and do a search for "SUBWAY ROLL SIGN". Pick any of them, and check the "Seller's other auctions"....you'll see the other stuff he has. Click on the number next to the sellers name (150), to see his feeback rating...you can click on any item number to see the stuff he's previously sold.
From the previous post, here's what was listed as stolen....I've seen MANY of these items...
> Many (25-50) R-1-9 rollsigns (Front and side)
> Several (15-25) "D-type" signs (Front and side)
> 20+ BMT Standard rollsigns
> Several (25-50) assorted other signs (R-10, R-12, R-16, etc.)
> Whistles (5-10)
> Air Gauges (5-10)
Your thoughts??
That FULL NAME strikes me as being AWFULLY familiar...
tuna sandwich anyone?
SORRY, i dont' know what came over me.
What came over you is that you are using Netscape.
Go to Preferences, and turn off Automatic Forms
and turn off Automatic Passwords,
and then it will stop screwing up the subject line each time you post.
Elias : )
Mark
I'm not sure that's such a good thing. The water might be getting cleaner...only because all those industrial jobs have gone south...or out of the country entirely. IMO, sometimes, it's better to have the jobs. Then, devise ways to clean up the water-pollutin' by-products. Instead, we have just lost the industries. A draconian solution.
Regards,
Jimmy
Why are there so many trucks in town tonight?
Why are they all parked at the Bars?
Oh Yeah, that's right...
Hunting Season Starts at Sunup
Just what we need
A whole bunch of drunk guys with guns
I think I'll go out and see who I can catch.
There is no court of appeals from Sheriff Darwin.
Elias
(just back from one ambulance run)
Suggest you turn on the water and fill the moat, hunker down with some of that apple wine, bro. :)
Sure enough, a guy came in with a gunshot wound to his hand.
Said it wasn't self inflected.... he should have painte DOW on *his* backside...
MOOO
T'is the season to lock your cab windows on passing trains, keep your head low and reach over the tabletop carefully. Yes, they think locomotives eat lead too. :)
And then the folks in the hinterlands complain that cities are dangerous. I'll take the subway at midnight any Saturday night as opposed to driving on a two lane road in the boondocks and wondering if the guy coming the other way is coherent.
Maybe that's true in parts of the country, but I've lived a good share of my life in rural eastern North Carolina and it's most definitely not true there, nor was it true where I lived in Virginia back in the '70s. I see a lot more of it here in New Jersey than I ever did down South.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Definitely the case in all towns in the northwestern Catskills. That's the only rural place where I've spent large amounts of time. But I've also seen it in random small towns all over. A few I can remember: Gouverneur in far northern NY, Kirkland Lake in northeastern Ontario. In Squamish, BC, built on a peninsula, they even put a police road block at the one exit from town and ask everyone where they're going (presumably discreetly sniffing your breath at the same time).
Check archives for when the MNRR Open House 2003 was FIRST mentioned...
I'll be there... but won't go via GCT.
If this is gettin too crazy, we'll meet on the train. What car? I'm thinkin the last car unless it's an MU. If MU, then 1st car. Sounds good?
ATTENTION ALL GOING TO CROTON SHOPS OPEN HOUSE!!!! MUST READ!!!
The official meeting locations and times are as follows:
8:30 at the transit museum shop entrance in GCT(NOT THE BROOKLYN SITE!!!)
8:35 at the round information kiosk with the clock on top in the center of GCT
We will begin walking to the train at 8:40 sharp! The train will leave at 8:53AM.
ALL WHO ARE GOING AND WOULD LIKE TO MEET UP AT GCT MUST REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. I will be making a roster, but please remember, WE LEAVE FOR THE TRAIN AT 8:40, no later, no earlier.
But my heart's in South Ferry.
helps keep the rats way away.
Regards,
Jimmy
Oh wait, that's already taken.
As I've been a racing fan all my life I'd have to say Aqueduct. (I'd rather it be Belmont but you said subway & Belmont's station is LIRR)
That's probably the only way I'll ever get to that station.
If SEPTA: 2nd Street
If MTA Maryland: Reisterstown Plaza or Penn Station Baltimore
If WMATA: Georgia Ave-Petworth, since I was there for the opening. Unless they opened a station on any extension's I've mentioned before, and it happens to be underground. Other than those, Forest Glen, so i'll be too deep to be disturbed.
Don't fancy interrment in its lower level crypt then?
First we have your typical announcement, as commonly heard on the (6), complete with sound effects:
Click! (Right click, choose Save As)
Along with that announcement, comes one of the MTA's new safety announcements:
Click! (Right click, choose Save As)
As the (7) is famous for plowing through many immigrant neighborhoods, how about messages with a certain foreign twist? This one in Russian:
Click! (Right click, choose Save As)
Finally, many people have wished that the messages would have a more New Yorkish quality about them. Well, be careful what you wish for! I'm sure these messages would keep locals and tourists amused:
Click! (Right click, choose Save As)
Enjoy!
Adam
Regards,
Jimmy ;)
MP3 ~200k
This is my little go at it.
Regards,
Jimmy
And I've ridden Amtrak coast to coast three times (including the Broadway Limited, no longer running), ridden the Silver Star's full length once, and the Coast Starlight once. I've been on the San Diegan (now called something else) too many time to count.
So there.
I hope you had fun riding.
I have also been on Northeast direct at least once and The Three Rivers.
Entire NYCTA subway system EXCEPT 169th to 179th on Queens IND!
Entire PATH system.
Entire LIRR except Woodside to Port Washington.
New Haven Railroad GCT and PENN to Providence. And MANY MANY cab rides in FL9's and EP5's betweenGCT and NH.
Entire Boston heavy rail subway system including in the older 0500 series on the Blue Line -- the old BLACK cars....and all but the B Line on the light rail
Entire Philadelphia heavy rail subway system plus Route 100 to Norristown IN BULLETS and STRATFORDS.
Entire WMATA system as it existed in early 1082.
Entire Baltimore system in 1985 (what there was of it, one line).
Amtrak:
Washington DC to NYC
All too many trips on San Diegan/Pacific Surfliner from Santa Barbara all the way to San Diego
Entire BART system except the North Concord-Pittsburg segment
Entire Caltrain line Gilroy to San Francisco (videotaped the whole thing from the cab!)
Entire Metrolink system (and videotaped the entire system as it was in late 1993 from locomotive cabs.
Southern Pacific "Sunset Limited" LA-Yuma
Also entire Southern Pacific Los Angeles division in locomotive cabs
And Bakersfield to Mojave over Tehachapi Loop in locomotives.
Santa Fe San Diegans and Grand Canyon LA-Victorville
And also entire Los Angeles division in locomotive cabs.
Union Pacific freight locomotive cabs Barstow-LA
Wow, that's what I'd call early railroading!
–I have never been on one where the automated announcements have been in sync with the stations (but the voice quality for the useless announcements has always been perfect!)
–On the other hand, the staff PA announcements have been weak and garbled. Some level of AGC is needed!
–I can’t find the utility power for my PC!
–Last but not least: I was also surpised to see just how many seatcheck holders were broken, or temporarily fixed with duct tape. It’s 2003, surely we have sewing technology mastered by now!
Thanks, Moe! ;^) Since I've been working strictly Raritan for the last 3 1/2 years, I haven't had the "pleasure" of working the crap. I have heard horror stories, and I did deadhead a couple of times on the Coast Line to New York on them, but that's about it. I don't know, but if they're as bad as everybody says, maybe I'll start working out of Suffern or something!
Aside from this crisis, the RVL should be solid Comet-III. 50 cars would about cover the service. There's a couple of 7 car trains a couple of 5 cars trains. The Comet-II's should move up to the ex-Erie lines to bump off the Comet-I's as they are retired, or put on Bay Head and Atlantic City trains which don't have the frequent stop and heavy over-crowding problems requiring center doors.
Which is not really practical since the NEC is a higher density line with (execpt for Jersey Ave) all high platforms, while the RVL only has 5 high platform stations (aside from Newark Penn).
>>50 cars would about cover the service. There's a couple of 7 car trains a couple of 5 cars trains.<<
Actually, for the last year or so, there have been no 7 car trains on the RVL. There have been 6 six car sets, and 3 five car sets. So, that equals 51 cars, so you were very close as far as the total amount of cars needed. However, I was told that when the Comet V's arrive at Raritan, all 9 sets will be comprised of six cars each. Why? I don't know.
I think the crews in Raritan won't have a problem with the cars (except for the 3 second delay in opening the doors). If the automated announcements work, they won't have to use the non-functioning Pa too much.
The corridor should have comet III's, IV's and MU's only. But that is just my opinion just m
Yeah, what's up with the ripped seatcheck holders situation? Are the "customers" who ride that equipment really that angry? I hope I don't get bumped on the rollover, because on the job I'm on now, we don't have to seat check going west!
I may take a temp in Raritan for this week just for the hell of it, but I'll definately be in Hoboken for the rollover with hopes that I'll get forced to qualify. (That's if the trial goes well and I pass the Conductors test.)
No, not all of them are immediately promoted to Conductor.
Well, Moe, as of Friday, the only Comet V at Raritan was the "training car", cab car # 6020. I don't know at what rate they will be arriving, all I know is that Novenber 1st is the target date for the line to be all Comet V's.
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, and you want to work there *before* those "rattle traps" arrive! ;-)
I think the crews in Raritan won't have a problem with the cars (except for the 3 second delay in opening the doors). If the automated announcements work, they won't have to use the non-functioning Pa too much.
The corridor should have comet III's, IV's and MU's only. But that is just my opinion.
He leaves a wonderful legacy. What can I say except: "Thank you."
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/nyc-daff1011,0,173599.story?coll=ny-nynews-headlines
Since it wasn't your money, what you prefer is irrelevant.
Here's a less dramatic article from the Daily News.
Yes, I did mess up big time on that post. I'll be more careful next time.
........................................................................................Time to add Mike & Brian to the killfile.
It didn't.
Blake, OTOH, chose to be an asshole who trashes public property. I'm glad he got caught.
I would suppose that Dean did not realize that subway graffiti is still a very sensitive topic in New York.
BTW Shoreline Jct aka MILL RIVER interlocking was always been under control of the Shoreline Dispatch.
Damit, SS75 was my example of distrabuted dispatching in the modern railroad age. The Operator at SS75 had a display of the entire NH Line on a seperate CRT and I am sure that dispatchers downtown had a CRT with SS75's territory. How does this make things better off???
Mark
I just wanted to let everyone know that it could be any train,passenger or freightMilwuaukee Roads ThunderHawks)
CNJ Blue Comet, Phoebe Snow Erie-Lackawanna, NYC 20th Century Limited, PRR Broadway Limited, City of San Fransisco, Sunset Limited, Silver Meteor, New Haven Shoreline.
Freight: ConRail, East Florida Coast, New York & Atlantic, Morristown and Erie, South Brooklyn Railway, New York, Susquehanna, and Western.
Regards,
Jimmy
Looking down the track, the old automatics have gone to danger, even though no trains are present.
-Stef
Query: Don' signal lamps have a safety circuit: that is, if a lamp goes out, a test circuit routed through the bulb is interrupted, and the lamp is made to go completely dark?
That would actually be preferable to showing any other color; it alerts someone that the signal needs repair and doesn't imply something which isn't necessarily true.
There are still a few single bulb heads left on the BMT I thnik, but they were #1 to be replaced with LED's
??
Things could get pretty complicated in the days of lower-quadrant
2-aspect semaphore signaling, because instead of the distant
indication being conveyed as part of the R/Y/G trio, you'd need
a separate distant blade. If you also wanted to be able to give
a "call-on", aka "Restricting" at the home signal then another
blade was added all the way at the bottom.
The night aspect of a diverging approach on the old IRT elevated
lines might be R/Y/G/r !
The current NYCT aspect scheme was introduced in 1914 by the New
York Municipal (aka the BRT) in conjunction with the Broadway
subway. It was a radical departure from accepted railroad
practice.
If you don't know there is a switch there, you aren't
qualified on the line.
If the yellow lamp goes out the signal will display a straight green. Signals should not fail to a less restrictive aspect.
What the bloody @&** are you talking about? If the yellow aspect of a Green over Yellow goes out, the signal now displays Green over Dark, which, by the rules is the same as Stop and Stay.
Green over Green is not necessarily less restrictive than Green over Yellow. The upper aspect of a NYCT home signal indicates the condition of the block ahead; the lower aspect indicates the routing of the up-coming switch.
I've noticed them after 12 hours on the job. What's so hard about 7? I've noticed dark red automatics on the structure at 3:30am. Time and place don't mean anything - if you know your line, you can see them.
Dark signal = stop, just like everywhere else.
So the T/O is thinking: "The next signal after this one will have two heads. If I only see one light, something's wrong."
Is that correct?
Right, but the position of the red aspect versus the green conveys routing information, and a green for diverging indicates a different "clear" speed than a green for the mainline.
-Stef
You have an old IRT signal displaying R over G, and the R burns out. -How is that any worse than a burnt Y for G over Y? According to you, the T/O can not see the dark head.
Better yet, you have a NORAC signal displaying R over Y, and the R glitches. Now you have approach instead of restricting.
burnt Y for G over Y? don't know if the next signal is clear or not. Sure you do - the top Green indicates the next two blocks are clear; with the bottom Yellow dark, you don't know which way you are going.
David
Only between 59th and City Hall. They made hourly trips.
David
I rode them in revenue passenger service on the #4 from Burnside Ave. This was no fantrip, it was in regular service picking up stunned passengers. I think they went as far as City Hall or Bowling Green.
Bill "Newkirk"
The R 1-9s' do the smoking, the Low-V's are smoke free !
Bill "Newkirk"
You obviously never saw Franklin Ave station, during rush hours, 40+ years ago :) Only the Hi-V's smoked more.
Now that would be a real 100 year celebration.
That may not be possible since 6019 ABC have been condemned by Coney Island shops. They were earned that distinction due to problems with water leaking in and shorting out the fuse box and other problems have surfaced. Being condemned doesn't mean they will be scrapped, they will probably become static museum displays like #2204 etc.
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
Condemned meaning not fit for revenue passenger service, even fantrips. Maybe some greenbacks with some sponsership may help get them back and running. All three D-types are in sad shape, even though patchwork and recent painting was done to stabilize body rot. I saw this on the recent MOD Steeplecab/D-Type trip. The salt air at Coney Island ain't doing them any favors either.
Bill "Newkirk"
It really goes many back many years of being stored outdoors. The rust and rot usually catch up years later. The problem with the Redbirds was the alkaline grafitti wash used in the '70s to remove grafitti, which was why they rotted much sooner.
Bill "Newkirk"
That statement is totally false. Yes they have problems BUT they are going to be repaired.
Perhaps being labeled "condemned" made these repairs possible. With the centennial around the block, they probably want all three units to run.
The water leaking in the fuse box earned that title. I didn't hear this from some half baked railfan and I didn't make it up.
Bill "Newkirk"
With the high humidity, winters, etc., they may have some rust/body rot that needs tobe repaired from time to time.
We, out here in southern California, are blessed with a reasonably dry climate and things don't tend to rust out like they do in NYC.
But get this: my Jeep reached 500,000 miles on Oct. 3.
Arnines would get away from you too - you HAD to listen for the puff (1689 surprised me the first time out because the feed position was a bit further over than I remembered) and then lap it, but it reliably held when you did. Arnines I still remember well enough to operate safely ... LoV's ... well, need some schoolcar again. Heh.
DEFINITELY wanna meet ya whenever I can get down yonder again! :)
The Q's and other old stuff on the BMT at least had some charm to them. The standards didn't seem to have that.
About the only flaw those bulletproof cars had was their motors. You'd think that a car that heavy would have motors rated at 200 hp at least, compared to the 140 hp apiece their motors had.
A psuedo-R train.
I heard an announcment that "R trains are running on the E line serving all E train stations from Continental to 2nd Ave." (sic)
I came back up and saw a big crowd trying to get on an M103, which is a pretty slow route even in ordinary circumstances. So instead I got on an M86 to go to the West Side. Lots of other people had the same idea, so our bus was crush-loaded leaving Lexington Ave, but it was a short ride through the park. At CPW I got off and went into the IND station. After a few minutes of waiting a C pulled in and I had a quick ride down to Chambers.
Anyone know what was going on on the East Side??
Here's what happened today:
1. The E line weekend diversion was cancelled so far. No word if the diversion will start tonight at 12:01.
2. The 7 line had a surpise G.O., suspending all service from QBP to TS from 9 AM to 5 PM today. In an unexpected move at the last minute, the Main St bound 7 trains were leaving on the upper level and ran express to Woodside from QBB.
3. At 10:30 AM, I was in the thick of a HUGE MESS. A malfunctioning signal system on either the 60th st tube or on the Broadway line. All service on the W and Q in Manhattan was suspeneded. There were no trains running at 34th st on the Broadway/BMT side, an officer was thinking of shutting down the entire complex but 6th Ave was running normal (V trains and all). The W ran shuttle from QBP to DB/Astoria. As R30 wanted to find out on the V running today???? The R trains were rerouted from Queens Plaza onto 53rd tube and were converted into V's to 2nd Ave. Some R trains I saw ran lite (OOS) on their way back from 2nd Ave to 71st Ave/FH. The mess was HORRRIBLE at Queens Plaza. I walked from QBP to Queens Plaza and everyone was using the gate and keeping their block tickets. To compound matters, there is a big game at Yankee Stadium which only worsened crowds. R30 you should've seen the mess at Queens Plaza.
4. The 3 line IS running to/from 148th/Lenox despite the split service G.O. This is as per a C/R I asked at 42nd st/TS.
Whew, what does the evening have in store for us?
Who's playing at Yankee Stadium tonight??
wayne
[ ] 242 St - South Ferry
(1) 242 St - South Ferry
(1) 137 St - Flatbush Av
(2) 137 St - Flatbush Av
(2) 241 St - 42 St/TSQ [nothing 7-9PM]
(2) 241 St - 34 St/Penn [nothing 7-9PM]
(2) 42 St - 14 St
(3) 148 St - New Lots Av [nothing 7PM-?]
(3) 96 St - New Lots Av
(4) Woodlawn - Bowling Green
(4) Woodlawn - Utica Av
(5) Dyre Av - [E 180 St?]
(7) Flushing Main St - Queensboro Plaza
(12) 137 St - Flatbush Av
(13) 137 St - Flatbush Av
wayne
Some downtown 4 trains were running to Crown Heights-Utica, some were running to Bolwing Green, however 5 trains were running, albeit every 20-30 minutes. I also saw a 4 train running express on the local between 14th and BB while waiting 30 minutes for the 6 train. Express service as a whole was a complete and utter joke as trains bunched heavily causing droughts of 20-30 minutes, and then 3 trains within 5 minutes. Local service was non-existant. I didn't go up to 125th but I think the 6 was running split service where you had to transfer to go to the Bronx.
As reported, the 7 line was not taped off at GC, and people were going down into the passage, then would come back out because there was no 7. Signs were posted, but since people never read them, the stairs needed to be taped off.
If they had put up metal barricades, people would move them to one side and walk around it.
Was greeted coming down the stairs at Prospect on the Manhattan bound side with a packed to the brim R train; it was sitting there for an extended period of time and even though I was able to scan nearly three cars for a space to get in before the doors closed, I couldn't get on. Only after it began to leave I noticed its signage:
R SHUTTLE
R PACIFIC ST
Confused, I waited. Nothing for about 10 minutes. Two R46s pull in on the other side, no express trains. I assume that the trains on the other side were Rs. (You can't see signage from the other side at 4th Ave local stations). No mention of anything else. No announcements. Another R pulls in on my side. Reminding myself that the Q wasn't running normally anyway I took this second nearly packed train one stop up to 9th St and went for the F. The C/R announced loudly that anyone who wanted to go to Manhattan should take the F. Eager to get home, I didn't hang around as I would have liked so I can learn more. Took the F to Kings Hwy and the B82 home. Manhattan bound 4th Ave F platform was packed tight. Can someone please elaborate as to the signalling problem and if this was the reason for this, and if it is still going like this?
To my surprise, every window was sratch free-really enhanced the appearance of this car. But I'll tell you what I really noticed. In my opinion, the R62s seem to run faster than the R142s and R142As. To me, there is no comparison. I will definately miss the R62s on the "4".
1. What are your opinions on the above?
2. How many R62s are left on the "4"?
3. How many R62As are left on the "3"?
4. Where are the R142As? The only thing I see operating on the "4" are the R142s with a couple of R62s and R142As sprinkled in . The "4" has about 80 of these cars-8 trains. What happened?
Thank you.
Btw, whats more rare, a R62 on the 4 or this:
I have no R62 pics as of now. I'll try to get some later
Aqueduct N Conduit Av northbound platform = 1069' and 7"
Beach 98 St = 839' (southbound platform only)
Aqueduct N Conduit Av southbound platform = 819' and 7"
Beach 116 St = 731'
Beach 25 St = 715' (southbound platform only)
Howard Beach = 691' and 6" (both platforms)
Beach 60 St = 690' (both platforms)
Aqueduct Raceway = 689'
34 St 6Av northbound platform = unknown at this time (estimated to be between 650' and 675')
(1) How are the trains relayed and turned at 96th St.?
(2) Are the #3 trains passing through 96th impacted?
Most likely crossing onto the local track and relaying on the middle track at 103rd.
I posted exactly what was to be done.
-Stef
An unusual aspect of the Louisiana Ave. station is that there are concrete pillars every 10-15 feet between the viaducts over both Louisiana Ave. and Washington St. They will separate the light rail ROW from I-25. The two streets bisect just south of I-25. I wonder if they'll put up some sort of roof over the tracks at that point.
The new third track at the Broadway station is ballasted, but it has not been tied in yet and there is no catenary over it yet.
The slightly longer answer: The Nassau Street Subway is the only part of the Third Avenue Subway approved and built. When the Montague Street Tunnel was approved, a route to connect the Nassau Street Line to the underwater tunnel was described and approved. The initial plan did not mention the tail tracks at all.
Physically, R1 and R2 begin a steady downgrade south of Broad Street station. R3 and R4 OTOH proceed on a slight upgrade, then a downgrade, then end on a 2% upgrade, way above R1 and R2. No way could they either connect back in or go under the river.
example looking at HUDSON OMEGA BOARD
7:20 CROTON HARMON MORRIS HEIGHTS 1ST STOP
7:53 POUGHKEEPSIE MARBLE HILL 1ST STOP
820 CROTON HARMON MORRIS HEIGHTS 1ST STOP
853 POUGHKEEPSIE MARBLE HILL 1ST STOP
also returning trains leave every half hour from harmon. at the top of every hour are the LOCALS back to NY. orginiating at harmon. BEST BET FOR RAILFAN WINDOW AND SEAT. then there is the 29 after EXPRESS at the middle of every hour which makes HARMON, OSSINING, TARRYTOWN, YONKERS, MARBLE HILL, 125 AND NY. those shoreliners will not necessarily promise you a seat, but they will give you a nice ride home going down the river at 75mph.
examples
12:00 LOCAL TO NY TRACK 3
1229 EXPRESS TO NY TRACK 1
1:00 LOCAL TO NY TRACK 3
129 EXPRESS TO NY TRACK 1
u get the idea. hope to see u subtalkers there. it has also been brought to my attention by co workers of mine at harmon that, M7s will be on display. HOWEVER THEY ARE LONG ISLAND M7s.
SEE U SUBTALKERS NEXT WEEK. I WILL BE THERE WITH MY METRO NORTH VEST ON HOPEFULLY TO ANSWER ANY MNRR QUESTIONS.
Regards,
Jimmy
#3 West End Jeff
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=438752&WxsIERv=QW50b25vdiBBbi0xMjQtMTAwIFJ1c2xhbg%3D%3D&WdsYXMg=QW50b25vdiBEZXNpZ24gQnVyZWF1&QtODMg=Vmllbm5hIC0gU2Nod2VjaGF0IChWSUUgLyBMT1dXKQ%3D%3D&ERDLTkt=QXVzdHJpYQ%3D%3D&ktODMp=T2N0b2JlciA5LCAyMDAz&BP=1&WNEb25u=UGV0ZXIgVW5tdXRoIC0gVkFQ&xsIERvdWdsY=VVItODIwMjk%3D&MgTUQtODMgKE=V2lsbCBpdCBmaXQ%2FIFN1cmUgaXQgaGFzIHRvLg%3D%3D&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=MTA1NA%3D%3D&NEb25uZWxs=MjAwMy0xMC0xMA%3D%3D&static=yes&size=L
http://tinyurl.com/ql79
<a href="http://tinyurl.com/ql79">Airplane picture</a>
and that will get you a link that looks like this:
Airplane picture
Mark
Mark
I see them on flatcars, under tarps, all the time heading east over the Tehachapi Loop in California, coming from the Siemens plant in Sacramento. Same basic shape, four doors, etc. under the tarps.
So it looks like Bangkok...
Here's a link to the pic: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/438763/L/
Yes, via the Chestnut St. incline, down the Broadway Brooklyn Line to Chambers St. That would have been a sight to see.
Bill "Newkirk"
Koi
The ramp itself was scapped for WW II scrap metal in the 1940's. It actually was left unused since the teens when joint LIRR BRT service ended.
There was once a section of girder that would support the LIRR trains to cross at grade. This was visible until a year ago, seen from a railfan window. A utility building was built on it. I believe you can still it from the street below.
Bill "Newkirk"
Also, I think it was only to transfer the whitestone line to the 7 instead of abandoning it, but I don't think there was anything with the Port Washington line.
Fort Totten is in the Bayside area, not Whitesone.I know you have an irrational hatred of NIMBY's but I doubt the homeowners along the Cross Island from Bell to Northern would appreciate an el over the CIP taking away their view of Little Neck Bay. It would also ruin Crocheron Park.The construction work on the CIP and the Whitestone Expwy would F--k up traffic for years!!!
There are more views along the side of the Cross Island than just the water. Take a walk along the jogging/skating/bike path along the CIP (especially in the summer when the views are scantily clad) and you'll see what I mean. You wouldn't want to take away that view, would you? There is no other place to put the tracks.
Or is it a question that it's simply the end of the line. There are approximately 24,000 daily bus-subway riders at 179th. These people would get on at stations further east, if the line were extended. It's simply a question of displacing existing passengers - not adding new ones.
At some point you are adding passengers not just replacing bus service. OTOH in the case of Flushing and maybe even a Parsons extension you are also providing intraboro service to shopping areas and that is more of a gain than at 179.
I was on the Far Rockaway to Jamaica bus recently, they do a good business.
I think an extention of the QB lion to Francis Lewis Blvd is in order with the (F) Runnign Express from the and the (N) ir the (Q) running local from 179 to Contenintal thence onto Bway via the 63rd.
Better service to the east would be obtained by the construction of the Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway. That has routes to the Nassau Lion via Northern Blve, Jamaica Avenue, and Merrick Boulevard. I always envisioned the Merrick Boulevard line terminating at the Green Acres Shopping center. I also would posit a line out Union Turnpike. For the Reasons of the UT line and the Jamaica line, I saw no need to extetnd the Hillside beyond Farmers.
I also invisioned the possibility of a line extenting via Hempstead Turnpike to Hempstead, as a transportation hub in Nassau County. All Nassau County services could feed in there. That line might support 4 to 6 tph, since it would merge with four other lines onto the express tracks of the Myrtle Avenue Express.
If four 6 tph lines feed into the Myrt Express, we'd be looking at a 24 tph route which is not too shabby. Esp since it is a 75 mph run from Jamaica Center (Jamaica and Supthin) to Brooklyn Center (Jay Street).
Elias
http://www.nycroads.com/crossings/george-washington/
Maybe passengers or motormen (I hate the term T/O) might hate it but railfans would love it!!!
IIRC, the idea was to extend the 7 to Great Neck.
Why is it a stupid idea? Most of the potential ridership is now taking a bus to Main Street anyway. Additional riders would be drawn away from the LIRR by the lower fare.
Extend the Astoria lines to La Guardia, then to Shea, then up the Whitestone Expressway to the bridge, then along the CIP to Fort Totten. No rail line of any type up there for a LONG time
Actually, when the Putnam Line closed if Yonkers wanted it it could have funded an IRT extension to Getty Square via the Getty Square branch. At that time, rather than walk a mile to the Put, my grandfather was driving to Kingsbridge, parking, and taking the #1 line (or whatever it was called at the time) down to Lower Manhattan.
Unfortuantely, the closure happened in the anti-transit days, and now the ROW is broken.
The lesson? Never allow a ROW to be broken up, because you never know what the future holds and a single break eliminates an asset that would be cost-prohibitive to re-create.
(W)'s running far as 36th St. and (R)'s running as far as Court St.
But the service advisory announcement stated due to power problem.
Anyone know what was going on ?
Bill "Newkirk"
David
It was not a good performance by NYCT!
BMTman must have done something to promote his favorite shuttle ;)
"Pilot switches synchronize frequencies that send power to train signals."
What does that mean, hopefully explained in very simple language?
Since the substations are not exempt from the First Law of Thermodynamics, where would the substations get their power?
Squirrel cages?
Oh. After about 25 minutes of waiting I did something I haven't done in years. I went down to the end of the platform and smoked a cigarette. It helped! ;-)
I saw threaded studs in the concrete decking which means new lighting poles should be going up soon. The concrete deck needs to be replaced, since it is in poor shape. Let's see what happens.
The station building seems a litle desheveled. Hope that will be spruced up. Mewkirk Plaza holds lot of childhood memories for me. Just one of the unique features on the Brighton Beach Line.
Bill "Newkirk"
PS - Any oldtimers remember these Newkirk Plaza stores ? (Willy) Waldell Hobbies, Ebingers, Almac Hardware (still there), Plaza Radio, DeSica's Pizzeria, Lindemann Florists, the original US Post office Newkirk Plaza station (before it burned in '71), South Brooklyn Savings Bank, Grillos fish market ? The list goes on !
Joe Butler
< img src="link" >
Just remember to close the brackets, and you're set.
B Division:
R32: A,C,E,F,R
R38: A,C
R40: N,Q,W
R40M: N,Q,J,M
R42: J,L,M,Z
R44: A,H
R46: E,F,G,R,V
R68: B,D,N,Q
R68A: N,Q,W
R143: L,M
hope this helps
wayne
R32: A is fairly rare. V (not noted) is VERY rare.
R40: W is usually weekends only; Q is rare on Circle
R40M:A few cars still in Eastern Div (J,M)
R68A is occasional on circle Q.
Addendum:
R68: S (Franklin)
wayne
Steve Loitsch
By the way, SubTalker Syd from NJ was also visiting today!
Steve Loitsch
While Car Equipment did their damndest to keep the relics rolling, it was becoming a lost cause by the mid-70's ... back in the early 70's when I ran them, if you had 6 or more cars with motors AND brakes in the same consist, out it went ... fortunately for the railroad though, a lot of new cars were coming in so not all THAT many runs were ABD's by lack of equipment. Arnines by this point ran rush hours only though so that they could be re-oiled for the PM rush. :)
All I remember was that when the TA started running out of "new" replacement parts, they tried to recondition the old ones with limited success, and supposedly THIS component was why they tried to keep the mileage down on the cars until they were scrapped. You'd usually only see Arnines out on the road as put-ins for rush only, and supposedly this was the primary reason why.
What I do remember though was looking at two half-pieces of gold-colored metal with HUGE gouges, torn edges, cracks, breaks and burn marks. Like *we* forgot to oil the boxes. Heh. But yeah, we had the fear of ghods put into us over being "hot shots" with the arnines. Yet another reason why I went out of my way to be a wuss on the rails. :)
Yeah, I was a bad boy when out with Unca Lou in 1689 ... hadn't quite gotten the railroad down, one of those briny, misty days a year ago yesterday on our outing ... dropped power running through the section break, went to wrap it up for Riverside and to my absolute DISMAY, found myself chewing rail. The WORST part of it was that I didn't HEAR it at first and Unca Lou had to TELL me I was slipping. I *still* wear my badge of shame for missing that right away. :(
When I did my time with the TA (I only lasted a few months before a collision in the yards that wasn't my fault, but since I was a probie, you know what happened to me, couldn't retreat to the conductor title since I went to motors while still a probie THERE) I babied the arnines, went out of my way to swap jobs to take them out - wanted no part of the SMEE's as long as the arnines were there - the operating parameters were just TOO different and as you probably know, they were desperate for ANYONE who was willing to take the "wrecks" out and had proven that they could actually control them. :)
And as we all know, it's MAGIC time on the Brighton line ... the leafy track greasers are already doing their thing up here - I figure a week or two and it's 10MPH restrictions and them pesky dots out on the road again. Heh.
David
And on a tour of the 63rd Street connector in 1997, our group was told such a connection was part of the project.
More information (but not much more) is here:
http://www.mta.info/capconstr/esas/brochure2000-1.pdf
Sunnyside Station will also serve some trains on Metro-North's New Haven line, which are likely to begin offering Penn service once LIRR frees up terminal capacity by moving some of its operations to GCT.
MTA would like to see Sunnyside Station serve Amtrak and New Jersey Transit trains as well -- talk about a super hub! But whether or not those other trains stop there is, of course, up to those agencies and not the MTA.
Yeah, but it's better for your health the way it is!!!
Sans any floatation devices !
Bill "Newkirk"
What about the empty space between tracks E1 and E2 at Classon Ave? Was this meant to be a provision for an express track to run through (and perhaps descend to a lower level like it does b/w Bedford-Nostrand and Myrtle-Willoughby) or was this space meant to be a provision for a layup track?
Why would anything have to terminate at Bedford-Nostrand? I don't think the G nor the "J" would have ever run 15 TPH. And there are crossovers east of the station which would've allowed for switching. The G and "J" were both supposed to continue to...Staten Island, I presume.
Enjoy!
Incognito
The White Plains Kid
I hear a rush of air from one of the cars. I think we have a Brake Pipe Rupture!!!
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
Coast Daylight
Cardinal
Lake Cities
Wall Street
Crusader
Erie-Lackawanna Limited
Super Chief
Regional
City of San Fransisco
Sunset Limited
Once I get one person to tell me their 4 favorite trains out of them all I will post the results of my poll.
All others on list are inferior
> There is a tie in my poll for your favorite named train,
> so tell me your 4 favorites out of these contenders:
1. Coast Daylight
2. Super Chief
3. City of San Fransisco
4. Sunset Limited
Or the LAKE SHORE LIMITED?
Or the MAINSTREETER... that one Used to stop along this line, back when we had REAL railroads!
: ) AMLTST
For pics of the trains go:
http://members.aol.com/sbahnhof/index.html/
Pics of the 485 is missing, so look here:
http://www.berliner-verkehrsseiten.de/s-bahn/Fahrzeuge/BR_485/485-6.jpg
Coast Daylight
Cardinal
Lake Cities
Wall Street
Crusader
Erie-Lackawanna Limited
Super Chief
Regional
City of San Fransisco
Sunset Limited
You mean Coast Starlight, right?
Robert
Robert
The trains with some or one votes that did not make it to the top ten are:
Cardinal
Lake Cities
Wall Street
Crusader
Erie-Lackawanna Limited
Regional
Now its time for the top 10 named trains:
10/9/8/7 (Tied) : Coast Daylight, Super Chief, City of San Fransisco, Sunset Limited
6/5/4/3/2 (Tied) :Pheobe Snow, Blue Comet, 20th Century Limited, Silver Meteor, California Zephyr
And the most popular named train at subtalk is.......................
Broadway Limited with 3 votes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Look for another railroad poll coming soon!
Elias
Public forum, Sarge...
If your using netscape, you'll notice the page has a metrocard icon by the web address. This was supposed to be for a webpage I made on my trip and never worked until now. Now it's everywhere! I don't get it.....
fav-icon or something.
Why the misadvertising? It's simple - the TEL will be more expensive in the long run, and much poorer performing than the competing bid. At 125mph, it's not 'high speed rail', it's barely better than current systems - when you factor in the poor performance of turbines and numerous speed restrictions that plague US rail systems. Not to mention substandard track, that the TEL's inherint inability to take curves safely at high speed (It simply can't.. Not amount of redesign will overcome the basic laws of physics that say it simply can't. Neither can the acela. It doesn't now, never has, never will.).
The winning bid is announced oct 27th, btw. BBD's probbably getting in their marketing and payoff checks now.
*rant mode on*
Not to mention, the US DOT is laying heavily on this white elephant. Why? Because they have a big stake in this. If it flops in Florida, it's dead. And if it's dead, it's yet another blow to the FRA's anti-electrification policy (which is, in effect, an anti-passenger rail one). You can bet the recent DOT turndown of the SVM projecgt had a lot to do with SEPTA's selection of an all electric system. The US DOT is anti electrification - an has been for years. It's that simple. Nobody else in the world has even seriously considered gas turbine locomotives in recent years, and for a very good reason - they just don't work, are very expensive, and very expensive to run and maintain. The FRA wants nothing more than to see the Florida system, if it's even built, become a horrid failure, because it will take public pressure off them to come up with real, working, rail strategy in the US. It's not a Bush thing, it's not a Republican Vs Democrat thing, it's the Class Is, via the FRA, pushing to kill passenger rail. They don't want it because it brings their operations under the public eye, and they don't want that. The sad thing is, transportation advocates suck up the TEL bullshit because they think that this time, as opposed to the 7 or 8 times this has been tried before, the fundimental problems have been solved. Which they haven't. It's inherint in the operation and design of any gas turbine that they've very inefficient at anything but steady state operation, that they're very maintenance intensive, and that they don't like the dirty air that's found near ground level. You can't design around this, you can't 'throw technology' at it. It simply doesn't work. If it did, it would have already. Electric showed immediate promise, diesel did, DMUs did, EMUs, did, steam did. Turbines haven't.
*rant mode off*
Well, they've selected a winning bidder, Now they just actually have to build the system, which is right now not very likely to happen at all. It was a stupid long shot anyway. what the heck does a state with virtually no mass transit of any usuable type need a high speed rail system for, anyway?
Now I'm going to have to put up with NIMBY's asking if the train is going to be too loud, or polluting. It's one thing to have freaks and nuts from faraway places that don't know better getting bored and deciding to get involved with ludicris anti-transportion propaganda(a trolley on a separate right of way will cause more traffic jams than a bus stopping on a 2 laned road!! haha)...but it's not wise to design a system that's set-up to fail, if so. At least 150 is 2.5 times faster than by car, and that will still help out big-time. I can only hope the first leg is a "success" and it boosters support to complete the system. We all know upgrades won't happen without any overwhelming use.
"What the heck does a state with virtually no mass transit of any usuable type need a high speed rail system for, anyway?"
We're a testiment to urban sprawl with a horrible infrastructure we can't afford to upkeep without tolls and taxes, and have land developers running the show from backrooms(I can't wait for the "water wars" to start again). Except the rural citrus grove areas, or what's left of them, it's a nightmare. Plus the amount of interurban traffic everyday must equal some commuter traffic to the outside suburbs from other citys. There's 274,000 intercity trips a day I read. It's hard to explain than it being a nightmare, plus mix in 70million tourist a year, and they're forced to rent cars because they do more than one city a trip.
Wrote more than I intended and it still wasn't all that good. :)
I'm having a hard time understanding how he can veto federally earmarked money from a state budget.....
"At 125mph, it's not 'high speed rail', it's barely better than current systems - when you factor in the poor performance of turbines and numerous speed restrictions that plague US rail systems. "
Here I agree with you...a technology demonstrator should be substantially better than existing systems. "Not to mention substandard track, that the TEL's inherint inability to take curves safely at high speed"
The Florida East Coast railroad has track good enough to allow consistent 80 mph operation by container trains. That's not bad compared to the track a lot of the US has to deal with.
(It simply can't.. Not amount of redesign will overcome the basic laws of physics that say it simply can't. Neither can the acela. It doesn't now, never has, never will.). "
That's your nonsensesical anti-Acela rant cropping up again. Acela rates very respectably even when compared to other countries. TGV it is not, but that's not Amtrak's fault. Put in additional track, like a new Hudson trunnels, and finish fixing catenary and ROW issues, and Acela performs just as well as anything you ride in Europe (actually, better because it is safer than anything you ride in Europe).
"what the heck does a state with virtually no mass transit of any usuable type need a high speed rail system for, anyway?"
That's a legitimate question. Maybe Miami should concentrate on improving its regional network and Orlando and Jacksonville shuld establish their own. Then we look at airline traffic patterns. High speed rail could displace airline traffic if it's good enough.
Orlando, for one of the top tourist destinations, probably won't get a decent transportation system for 20 years now. They got to be the worst tourist center in that regard. They arent even learning the same lessons tampa experienced, as far as Florida goes.
* By far the heaviest HST ever built.
* Poor reliability, cracking of major structural elements.
* Unable to deliver the PROMISED 3 hour trip time.
* Low average speed - not even 80mph.
* Curve speed no faster than nontilting conventional stock elsewhere.
On the last two notes, Acela compares horridly to (high speed) trains of Europe, or Japan. And it's curve speed is slow. So slow that the fancy tilting system isn't even needed from a passenger comfort point of view. It's slower than the X-2000 was. And it can't be made faster, pure and simple.
Acela was supposed to deliver a 3 hour NY Boston trip. It doesn't. It probbabnly never will. It fails on the one promise that sold it to the public.
When the Acela was OOS for a few weeks the other year, conventional AEM-7 hauled stock maintained Acela schedules. It's not hard - the very brief portions of 150mph running do virtually nothing to reduce running times.
It's not a BAD train, but it's not a high speed train, which it's sold as.
As far as 'safer', come on - show me an actual crash test of an Acela, Vs any other HST, under identical conditions, complete with instrumented test dummies.
Until you can provide that level of evidence, there's NOTHING to prove it's any safer (or less safe) than any other train out there. There simply isn't. You can brag about the FRA's regulations as mucxh as you want, but without an actual database, not just pictures and hearsay about other crashes, and wild assed guesses, you simply can not prove it's any better or worse than any other HST.
Detroit learned 40 years ago that crash testing had value, and so did the rest of the auto industry. It's the thousands of tests of everything under all conditions that resulted in today's impressively safe automibiles. Such a database simply doesn't exist for rail equipment of any design.
And anyway, blind faith in crash tests is pointless - you should be avoiding collisions in the first place, and it's been seen again and again that cab signals with automatic stops do that. The 50 or so years of the LIRR's (primative by modern standards) ASC system have shown that, in real world conditions.
The fastest diesel in the world? The TEL has not turned a signle wheel in revenue service either.
the X2000 has severe truck and axle problems and is now speed restricted.
Due to SJ's well documented poor maintenance. Same reason Amtrak's been blowing up AEM-7's like crazy lately.
ICE-T and ICE-E are both restricted due to wheel problems.
Since when? The composite rubber/steel wheels were replaced years ago.
Chineese Maglev is a dud.
Wroong wrong wrong and wrong
The TGV's articulated, the Acela's not.
The TGV's lightweight, the Acela's not.
The TGV's had decades of proven service at over 180mph. The Acela can't even REACH 180mph.
The TGV has proven a technical success, the Acela has not.
The TGV has body mounted motors, the Acela does not.
All the TGV and Acela have in common is the builder and propulsion system. That's it.
And Frances TGV is basicly what Acela is on dedicated right of way for high speed operation.
No, it's not. It's a totally different train that runs on dedicated tracks part of the time, regular tracks at other times.
its the Media that gave us proposed 3 hour operation on acela not Amtrak.
No, it was Amtrak. Amtrak said 'three hours', and couldn't deliver.
its the Media that took the 150 mph and ran with it not Amtrak
Amtrak advertised it as a 'feature' from day one. It was 'the number' they quoted, time and time again.
as they clearly stated from beginning that only a few miles would be 150 mph unless congress got of their ass.
When? They were bragging even after service was supposed to begin about the '150mph operation'. It was the media that was reporting that it was only a few miles.
Jaap, do you EVER pull your head out of your ass long enough to look at the real world, or is it so far up there that it's stuck?
Hey! So maintenance is an issue in Europe too? From your glowing praise of them I would have thought they never saw a malfunctioning train in their lives. (By the way - DB in Germany sucks the big one on maintenance).
"Chineese Maglev is a dud."
"Wroong wrong wrong and wrong"
Really? Should I call my travel agent and see if they're offering upgrades to first class on the Beijing to Manchuria Maglev Express? Do they take VISA and Discover Card, or just Amex?
T"he TGV's had decades of proven service at over 180mph. The Acela can't even REACH 180mph. "
Doesn't matter. 150 mph is good enough. Nobody appointed you to decide that only 180 mph was considered HSR.
"The TGV has proven a technical success, the Acela has not."
False statement; the acela is documented to be a technical success beyond debate. What it has not proven to be is a maintenance success. That is the problem (but it's OK for the Europeans to have maintenance headaches, just not Amtrak, right?)
And Frances TGV is basicly what Acela is on dedicated right of way for high speed operation.
"No, it's not. It's a totally different train that runs on dedicated tracks part of the time, regular tracks at other times. "
And it's only guaranteed to work at max perrormance when it doesn't have problems with other trains in front of it. Granted, the French invest a lot more into that than we do.
"No, it was Amtrak. Amtrak said 'three hours', and couldn't deliver. "
False. It did deliver (I was on a couple of those trips). In fact it delivered under 2 hours and 40 minutes. It cannot do so consistently, when the ROW is poorly maintained and it has to wait for NJ Transit to clear the Penn tubes at 80 mph. Acela's on-time performance sucks, but it has nothing to do with the train set.
"Jaap, do you EVER pull your head out of your ass long enough to look at the real world, or is it so far up there that it's stuck?"
That's funny...I was about to ask you the same question. Except I know you don't have a good answer.
And he's entitled to his opinion on Acela. Just so he knows that we know he's fishing in the wrong pond...
Any forum can be of some use to somebody. But whether on the Web, by mail or in person, it depends on people to bring and exchange information.
The fastest diesel in the world? The TEL has not turned a signle wheel in revenue service either.
the X2000 has severe truck and axle problems and is now speed restricted.
Due to SJ's well documented poor maintenance. Same reason Amtrak's been blowing up AEM-7's like crazy lately.
ICE-T and ICE-E are both restricted due to wheel problems.
Since when? The composite rubber/steel wheels were replaced years ago.
Chineese Maglev is a dud.
So what? maglev's a dud. this isn't a maglev discussion, it's an HSR one anyway.
And Frances TGV is basicly what Acela is on dedicated right of way for high speed operation.
Wroong wrong wrong and wrong
The TGV's articulated, the Acela's not.
The TGV's lightweight, the Acela's not.
The TGV's had decades of proven service at over 180mph. The Acela can't even REACH 180mph.
The TGV has proven a technical success, the Acela has not.
The TGV has body mounted motors, the Acela does not.
The Acela tilts, the TGV does not. Yet the TGV's curve speeds are the same.
All the TGV and Acela have in common is the builder and propulsion system. That's it.
It's a totally different train that runs on dedicated tracks part of the time, regular tracks at other times.
its the Media that gave us proposed 3 hour operation on acela not Amtrak.
No, it was Amtrak. Amtrak said 'three hours', and couldn't deliver.
its the Media that took the 150 mph and ran with it not Amtrak
Amtrak advertised it as a 'feature' from day one. It was 'the number' they quoted, time and time again.
as they clearly stated from beginning that only a few miles would be 150 mph unless congress got of their ass.
When? They were bragging even after service was supposed to begin about the '150mph operation'. It was the media that was reporting that it was only a few miles.
Jaap, do you EVER pull your head out of your ass long enough to look at the real world, or is it so far up there that it's stuck?
ROW issues, not locomotive issues. The TGV folks would die of heart attacks trying to make TGV run on the NEC track.
"* Curve speed no faster than nontilting conventional stock elsewhere. "
False statement for all rolling stock in the US and false statement for all rolling stock in Europe and Japan except TGV and Shinkansen. What you forgot is that other people think you have evidence to support this nonsense, but I know you do not.
"Acela compares horridly to (high speed) trains of Europe, or Japan. And it's curve speed is slow. So slow that the fancy tilting system isn't even needed from a passenger comfort point of view. It's slower than the X-2000 was. And it can't be made faster, pure and simple."
False. Again, when you take away ROW prep issues (and I'm not minimizing them) Acela can achieve these gooals.
You know what you post to be false. You knowingly post false statements. Why do you bother doing that?
"When the Acela was OOS for a few weeks the other year, conventional AEM-7 hauled stock maintained Acela schedules. It's not hard - the very brief portions of 150mph running do virtually nothing to reduce running times."
Actually, even that is false. Acela has demonstrated 2.5 hour WAS-NYP performance, which the conventional Metroliner cannot do. The problem is one of consistency. So we're back to ROW again.
What you deliberately ignored, is that TGV and Shinkansen have straight, dedicated ROW used by no other trains.
All due to ROW and signalling. Again, I'm not minimizing these issues, because they are important, and I'm pissed that Congress doesn't fund them.
It has ZERO to do with the train. But you already know that. The train's reliability problems affect its availability, not its speed.
You criticize Acela by statements you know to be false and by innuendo, rumor and other things you accuse its supporters of using. You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think yuou'd have much support among railroaders. They know you don't know what you're talking about.
Stick to electricity and electronics. You're well-versed there...:0)
Also, there is strong public support and business support for a stop in the I-drive tourist area, even though disney(I so hate these people) wanted a non-viable route of having a stop at them only.
Did you know the anti-rail movement in this state has accumulated almost no money, there's some good support.
Stay tuned for next weeks weekly update for the next 15 years. :) j/k
When Stanley met Livingston.
When Oscar meet Hammerstein.
When Abbott and Costello.
And so on. Well you get the drift. Today I went out to Scranton for the Electric City Trolley Meet and had the chance finally to meet another well known sub-talker; Karl B. Mark Feinman was there as well with his excellent subway video collection. I've met Mark before but this was the first time that I every met Karl who is a fine gentleman and a very knowledable railfan of all aspects of railroading even though the Lexington Avenue El is his favorite.
Mark had a great collection of high quality subway videos. If you are in the market for these contact him.
The rest of the show sad to say was something of a disappointment. Too few vendors and not much of interest. What was there was mostly trolley stuff which was fine since this was a trolley met but it would have helped if they had broadened their merchandise a but.
There also was a few operating layouts.
The ride on Red Arrow #76 was nice as it always is.
The ride was and the Pocono Mountain have a fantastic display of color for Autumn.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Guess I'm glad that Jr. and I didn't make the trek out there yesterday... although we need to go sometime anyway since we haven't been there since the museum opened to the public. Hope this doesn't bode ill for Branford's show next weekend, especially since one of the vendors that I do patronize (Kevin Farrell Rail Books) was at Scranton and won't be at Branford, unless he sends an assistant with some inventory (Kevin's scheduled at another show elsewhere this coming weekend).
But Mark will be at Branford, so we'll have at least one quality dealer there :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sunday became an unofficial "Dealer Day". 30 or so dealers, 5 customers. For the entire show! By 12:30pm, we were all closing up shop as it became clear that people were not coming. The show should have been a single day. The Saturday turnout was better. I am not sure how well this was advertised, though it was their first show, and of coruse, you learn to make it better from past experience.
I had never been to Steamtown myself, so I ended up making a weekend out of it.
Ill bet Kevin is attending the TCA show in York, PA - it's the same weekend as the Branford show.
--Mark
My dad and I packed up and were back on the road at 2pm.
--Mark
--Mark
No, he's in Wakefield, Massachusetts, at the North Shore Model RR Club show, according to his website.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The 1973 Stock onwards used ECEB instead of Westinghouse (in words of few syllables, an electric rather than a pneumatic system).
At a train's starting point, the signalman sets up its description on a machine
Then your train gets delayed and you find out you're no longer going to Tower Hill, but to High Street Kensington.
A few months back at Wimbledon I saw an interesting electrical problem. The station signs were completely reversed! If a Tower Hill train was on a platform, the Platform indicator read Edgware Road, and vice versa!
For what is a sort of non-descript station, with nothing particular around it (except a good Marks & Sparks so I don’t have to fight the crowds in Oxford Street!), it has a lot of odd trains starting and terminating there!
John
Very odd ones. And I still crack up at the stupid on train announcement at Earl's Court telling you the train is stopping at all stations to High St Kensington!!!
It only gets to me when it announces that the stop before the terminal.
"This is a Waterloo and City Line train calling all stations to Bank."
Other than weekend station closures,
Who hasn't ended up at Fulham Broadway by mistake?
its only Met line passengers who need to worry about this.
At least TfL's journey planner has stopped telling you to get the first train to Amersham or Watford when you type in Baker Street to Northwood. Having said that, who would want to go to a Met Local station unless they lived there?
Never waste time telling people what they don't need to know. You will just confuse them. If they assume that Underground trains call at all stations, you don't need to tell them that. Perhaps it would be a better idea to fix the Underground map once and for all and show the fast sections of the Met.
If station announcers have words to waste, they could have a go at Time that why Piccadilly Line trains travelling in the same direction veer from Eastbound to Northbound depending on where you are.
I remember seeing something weird at London Bridge once. All of the trains heading Lewisham-wards were being flagged as "All Stations". Funny I thought; there must be a U2 concert at St John's or something. In fact, this was a day when St John's was closed, and so the sign really meant "Calling at all stations which are open today".
But it isn't at an out-of-the-way place - Kensington High Street is probably the second most important shopping area in London, after the main West End itself. Admittedly the station is a little way from the main shops, but there is no other tube station any nearer to them.
!
Must have dreamt the direct entrance into the Kensington branch of Marks & Spencers.
A system like the one you mentioned would cost in the tens of millions of dollars. Furthermore, the system creates a new job for the signalman adding to the MTA's payroll.
Here is the Set I have Photos Of!
9734-9735-9316(single)-9613-9612-9608-09-10-11-9595-9594
One Last Shown Photo Before the Linked Photos Below!
Here are the other 7!
Cars 9316-9613
Married Pair 9595-94
Married Pair 9608-9609
Married Pair 9610-11 coupled with 9609
Married Pair 9734-95 couple to 33WF-9316
Now if they could only get a one-week reprieve....
Great shot.
Redbirds and Graybirds together!
and did you say hello to any of us on board that same train?
Chuck
The R68's problems had absolutely nothing to do with the R44's problems or the R46's problems. It had nothing to do with the general design of the 75 foot car. It was, in its basic form, a system integration issue.
The R44 was no dud. When it worked, it fulfilled the performance promise that had been made for it. Where it failed was in component reliability. Its breakdown rate was far higher than it should have been, and this was, in part by the introduction of a lot of new technology all at once.
David
A worthy experiment. I like to encourage new technology. However, it might have been better to try out a train set in actual service with the new trucks for a while, then order the rest. Maybe then the TA would have been dealing with only 8 cars of cracked wheels instead of a whole fleet.
David
David
David
According to Bombardier's website, the company acquired ANF-Industrie in 1989, which is after the R-68s were built and delivered. Therefore, it cannot truly be said that the cars were built by Bombardier.
David
ANF also builts freight wagons, by the way- tank cars, for example.
:-)
http://www.newsday.com/business/ny-bzcov1013,0,4121557.story?coll=ny-business-headlines
Nice pictures, and a slightly exaggerated tabloid take on Sutphin Boulevard's issues. But they have to sell papers, you know?
The Business Improvement District is a welcome development.
We have a similar situation in KC. A newly developed area chipped in to create a public safety (rent-a-cop) force, They do foot and bike patrols. They are armed with guns and batons and Mace and insured for making citizens' arrests. They watch for quality-of-life stuff and if a vagrant makes himself/herself a little too obnoxious in front of a business, they will do the "move along" routine or make a citizens' arrest for trespass and call KCPD to transport the individual to jail. They have also, however, helped to prevent a homeless woman from being beaten up by her "boyfriend," and help give customers directions to different stores.
Jamaica will be the better for it.
A BID is one way. There are others. How would you structure a solution?
I'd like to join, but I don't know when or where.
All you need to tell us is if you saw any redbirds at all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Metra train derails on S. Side
(Associated Press)
A Metra commuter train derailed on Chicago's South Side this afternoon, injuring dozens of people aboard, authorities said.
Chicago Fire Department spokeswoman Molly Sullivan said as many as 100 people may have been hurt. She said most of the injuries were minor but that at least two people were seriously hurt and transported to the trauma unit at Stroger Hospital of Cook County.
She said at least eight other people were transported to area hospitals but did not know the extent of their injuries.
Officials said the incident involved Rock Island District train No. 519, which left LaSalle Street Station in downtown Chicago at 4:30 p.m. The train, outbound to Joliet, derailed about 4:40 p.m. near 48th Street.
Metra spokeswoman Judy Pardonnet said two engines and five coach cars derailed. The cause of the mishap was under investigation.
Passengers still downtown and planning to ride the Rock Island tonight were urged to seek alternate means of transportation.
As for the BMT standards, it makes you want to turn back the clock to June 22, 1915, when they debuted on the Sea Beach and 4th Ave. lines. That brown paint must have looked beautiful.
The brown paint seen on any UPS truck comes close to the original shade of brown used on the BMT Standards and even D-Types. The current light brown paint is a false color. If the restored Standards are returned to running condition, they should receive the UPS brown since that was their original color as delivered.
Bill "Newkirk"
Light blue like the R-33/36 WF scheme ?
The Low-V's never were painted light blue. The image you posted wasn't light blue but rather gray.
Bill "Newkirk"
The original Low-V color was said to be dark gray with a lime green roof. I heared that when #5466 was acquired at Branford, that several layers of roof paint was removed to reveal the lime green color. Perhaps some Branford people can back me up on that.
Now in the 60's when the five car musuem Low-V's were being used for fantrips, their color was olive drab sides with gloss black roof. That color sure beats the current gray and black roof scheme. Hope the TA opts for a more accurate paint livery for the centennial.
Bill "Newkirk"
Correct ! Even though the Low-V's never were painted in Tuscan Red with orange windows (wood sash cars), the original Gibbs cars were said to have been painted those same colors.
Bill "Newkirk"
Get AIM at (obviously enough) www.Aim.com
It seems the leaf problem is being anticipated out here.
Whose first major role was in Trainspotting - which, despite its name, was almost devoid of rail content.
B.D. Wong is the FBI shrink on Law and Order, SVU. He got famous in the B'way play M. Butterfly, a play based on a strange homoerotic true story.
"Stay" huh. Anyway we could get the "Stop and..." inserted in there?
That show was bland anyway. Its about time for a new transit show to take it's place, a REAL transit show. What ever happened to Subway Q & A?
This photo has puzzled me ever since I first saw it. It shows R36 9654 and the date...June 1963!! How is this possible-R33 WF singles didn't even debut until fall 1963, and the R36 shortly afterward.
I'm surprised you didn't mention August 1, 1970.:)
1. No service to and from Ft. Meade/NSA
Yes Chris Rivera, I admit, WMATA is pathetic in this situation. Due to their refusal to operate weekday service, a number of other systems are forced to operate on limited or reduced schedules, inconveniencing many, myself being one of those who will be inconvienenced tomorrow to the point I will use my car.
Yes they are. It's easy to do that when you haven't been paying attention to the responses to your own posts.
R40M's that are slated to be transferred to CI Yard are given diamond Q signs.
They’re doing it just because.
You’re still paranoid!
This evening at around 7:30 PM, I took the C train at 86th st. At the next stop (or perhaps at 103rd?), a man wearing a reddish/pink colored shirt, and blue jeans(?), carrying what looked like some white shirts in his left hand, came in. He and I eyed each other for a while. I remember he had blue eyes (from what I could see) and I found him quite attractive. ;-)
He got off at 145th and walked over to the A platform. I should've gotten off too, but I decided to wait till 168th and catch the A there. I hoped I'd meet the guy again there, but I didn't see him. Oh and yeah, we continued eyeing each other as the C train left the 145th street station. Why didn't I get off again?! haha
I was wearing a striped polo shirt (black, white, and gray stripes), sandblasted worker jeans, and a nylon black jacket. I had a black messenger bag, and some headphones on, listening to some music on my silver discman. I have dark fine hair and I use coffee-colored, small-framed glasses.
Anyway, not that I expect the odds to be in my favor, but if you're out there, Mystery Guy, and you want to chat, please send me an e-mail to jas121081@yahoo.com or message me through AOL Instant Messenger at JoeNYCBoi.
Hope to hear from ya, if you want
Joe
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Or, to quote Oscar Wilde, The Love That Dare Not Speak Its Name.
Good thing I live in Philly.... you guys are starting to scare me.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Ooh, that's a zinger.
Better to try & fail than to not try at all................as I'm sure you've just discovered.
I didn't have too much luck other than that one time on the subway. The only other station that holds a "love" place in my heart besides Graham Ave is 33rd Street on Lex, the home station of my former girlfriend. You'd be suprised what you could do in a station without people noticing....if those "33" eagles could talk - I knew I loved something about that station besides the great renovation they did there.
Al Green Greatest Hits.
My advice: Go back to 96 St and look for him. You will not find him here.
Regards,
Jimmy
Bottom line for JoeS is, next time the situation arises, give it a shot. Attempt to open up the conversation. Do something!
I speak from experience. Once, I was talking to a female who happened to be a small-bit soap opera actress. Got the conversation going very well, then froze like an ice cube when it came time to asking for the number. She got away. Ever since then, I've always just said "F it" and gave it a shot (but not after I brow-beated myself like never before). There is no worse feeling than being embarrassed AT YOURSELF.
Worst thing that could happens is that she says "no".
I on the other hand do not mind striking up conversations with those of the opposite you-know-what. Life itself is a gamble, so I take a shot and hope that I don't crap out.
Then again, that's why Depends were invented.
I thought they were invented so Selkirk could make a fortune by cornering the market ...
In my experience, it's not that there aren't good people out there, it's just that they don't seem concerned with actually getting to know one another, and I mean more than just a "hi and goodbye" type of relationship.
Eh, but I've probably overstayed my welcome by now. This isn't a love connection, after all. I bet it's neither the place to analyze human relations too, lol.
Later!
We had missed my NB Coaster train at Old town in San Diego and raced it to Sorrento Valley. We got there as it left Carrol Canyon, and started to pick up speed rolling towards the station, coming out of the 30 zone into a 90, but it wouldn't get going to more than about 50 before it had to slow down.
ANYWAYS! So here I am, ready to get out of this boy's car, but goodbye wasn't really enough...
The train was now only about 2/3 mile away, and the engineer started to sound the horn for the crossing that was situated about 1/5 mile from the station.
I looked him in his deep ocean blue eyes... and saw what I knew was obvious in my own. Love? Maybe not, but it was definitely something.
Knowing I had a matter of about sixty seconds to either give up or do something, I said "If you hate me for this, I'll just have to live with it..." and... well... kissed him. I half expected to be smacked but I wasn't... I was met by tender, passionate lips.
Meanwhile... the locomotive passed over the grade crossing and its arrival was ever impending. I smiled at him and he smiled back. I said "I think I'd better go..." and he said "yeah..." but as I stepped up out of the car, he pulled my arm and said "one for the road?" How could I resist?
The train came to a stop and we had to abruptly break off our embrace. I was a little surprised as the conductor had his head out the window (uncharacteristic for a coaster conductor) and had a big smile on his face looking at us.
Perfect ending to a perfect day?
In terms of spontaneous last-second and maybe never again romance... you bet. =) Although I did see him again before my vacation ended... and I still keep in touch today. I won't complain about what didn't happen, but it's always interesting to wonder where it *may* have led.
Hate to repeat what's been said before but you never know if you don't say hello. =P
Look elsewhere on this site for my pictures shot at that station back in 1997.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.42 Now Available!
You're most welcome, and thank you for those very kind words. I would say "outstanding" was a very key term for this book, because that's how I got the details just right -- I can be found out standing at the railfan window for hours at a time before each version is completed!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.42 Now Available!
With plans for an 7 extension already evident by the MTA, will they do anything to this platform? I do remember discussion that mentioned that it wouldn't be disturbed due to the slope of the trackage and so forth...
Even though the scene starts with Brightliners, it is an R42 by the time it pulls into the el station. The scene begins with Patrick Swayze entering a train at the lower 42 station, dressed up as "Franklin". When the train pulls into the el station that is the Myrtle Broadway station on the J line where Patrick (Sam) gets off. When he is at the villian (Willy's) apartment, you can see an elevated structure and station in the backround which is I believe the Franklin Shuttle (that I'm not sure about). The brightliners with blue doors go by above. As for them still having brightliners with blue doors in 1990, remember that the move came out in 1990, the filming may have taken place in 1988 or 1989. The GOHed R42 on the J would probably date it about 1989, as they were just coming back around 1989 or so from their rebuilds.
In the scene near the end where Willy gets taken by demons, that scene is taken under the station at Myrtle-Broadway. What a perfect setting for a scene like that as it is dark and spooky down there even in the day! Notice also that the intersection of Myrtle and Broadway also still had cobblestones around 1989. It's a great movie even without the subway scenes, and those make it even more interesting. If you haven't seen the movie, you should rent it.
If you're talking about Myrtle-Broadway, the area was considerably worse in the late 1980's when the movie was filmed than it is today.
Bob Sklar
Regards,
Jimmy
Regards,
Jimmy
I just won't watch it anymore.
It also censors its movies, notwithstanding its claims that all movies are shown uncut. Not that AMC's alone in this respect; Bravo also makes an "uncut" claim but censors too. As far as I know, the only cable channels that don't censor are Independent Film Channel and World Link TV :(
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Time to drop this Sprague-Edison setup and go with Tesla-Westinghouse AC power. Heck it's beyond me as to how LIAR is still 3rd rail, they have absolutely no issues with clearance, the cat already runs into NY Penn, and if there's a problem on the Atlantic Ave branch, then screw it, leave the 3rd rail there and run dual-mode trains. No doubt some cat clearance issues have been manufactured by the ESA, if the quite short double-deckers can't get in there, how much room is there really between the roof of an M7 and the tunnel liner? By all rights the Ronk. extension of the 3rd rail should have been catenary, no doubt somebody thought that it'd be too expensive to aquire new rolling stock to run out there [like an ALP44 or even ALP46 modified for 3rd rail service really would have been that expensive [especially compared to the nightmare the DM30s turned into)].
GCT used to have that overhead 3rd rail, so there must be some clearance there, could 25 or at least 12kvac catenary fit down some of the tracks?
Same reason why I sometimes talk about a particular lion.
Elias
A train with over-running shoes could run on track with over-running 3rd rail while hauled by a diesel loco.
A train with over-running shoes could run on track with over-running 3rd rail on its own power.
AEM7
D'oh - I meant one of those over-runnings to be under-running.
Elias
Just like when you leave a lamp or appliance plugged into an electric outlet. Turn the switch Off, and it's off. No need to unplug it.
Would a train with under-running shoes be able to run on track with over-running 3rd rail (say, hauled by a diesel loco) and vice versa without knocking the shoes off?
Yes, a train with under-running shoes could run on track with over-running 3rd rail without knocking the shoes off, provided that one of the following is true:
(1) The shoes were removed, prior to movement.
(2) The shoes were retractable.
(3) The shoes were flexible, such that when knocked by the wrong type of 3rd rail, the shoe does not come off but instead flexes inwards, to bounce back into shape when the 3rd rail ceases knocking the said shoe.
AEM7
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
It can't be done unless an air cylinder is used to control the third rail shoe (a la FL-9) pressure.
What about Two Shoes for both Positions?
Why do that anyway? Just leave them the way they are, both MNCR and LIRR equipment don't run on each other lines much.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
LIRR used to have a terminal at the CHAMBERS STREET station.
: ) Elias
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
What was the nature of that renovation 30-some-odd years ago? Are the staircases from the mezzanine to the platforms original, just re-faced with the refrigerator tiles, or were the original stairs replaced at that time? Was the mezzanine reconstructed back then too? How different is the current station configuration from the original (except for the station length, of course)?
Bob Sklar
Too bad I can't answer any of your questions...
I haven't a clue.
Elias
I am confused, expecially when looking at the station section on this site.
I originally thought that those beige "refridgerator tiles were put up when they did the platfrom extensions in the 50's. I am positive on the lower Lex line that those "aqua refriderator" tiles were put there in the 50's when they extended the downtown sides in the 50's. (The uptown sides were extended in the 30's, and done in a more attractive tile on Lex).
I assumed that the upper part of the West Side line was done in the same manner. IINM, those beige tiles were put there in the 50's extension as original tile, and are not covering any original IRT tile. What confuses me though is that in the station section of this site, the second photo says that it is a "tablet from the extension". I think that is wrong because that name tablet looks like the original 1904 tablets that are present at many of the other COntract One station on both the Lexington and Broadway-7th Lines. Can someone elighten me here, am I wrong or is the text in the station section wrong - I'm a bit confused now.
Avoiding a rant, I'm interested in knowing why the new trains are made so when one of the miscellaneous announcements is made, the interior information display takes forever to scroll the message across. If you get on a Kawasaki train, you'll see how fast the normal screen changes from the time to the destination to the next stop. Less than a second between each change, and that's the important information. But it takes up 10-12 seconds to say This is the last stop on this train. Everyone please leave the train. Maybe some conjunctions should be eliminated on this and other announcements.
Robert
Robert
I imagine something like "Thank you for riding MTA NYC transit" or "Do not lean against the door".
Or do they have some of those announcements MARTA (Atlanta) has - like "We're interested in your comments. Call..." or "Remember to hold the hands of small children..."?
Or maybe something rather weird and funny such as "Don't forget to tip your C/R and T/O", or "Today's special at Denny's Restaurant on 5th Ave/53rd St is..." :D
Do not lean against train doors. . .
Do not hold train doors. . .
We are being held momentarily by the train dispatcher. . .
These are some.
Route 15 Girard Avenue Light Rail Project
Mark
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Farewell to the "Redbirds".
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
FAREWELL TO THE REDBIRDS.
#3 West End Jeff
FAREWELL TO THE REDBIRDS.
#3 West End Jeff
FAREWELL TO THE REDBIRDS.
My hope is we'll have Chap11 around to snap some photos
IF and WHEN that happens.
It might be that I ride my home subway at rush hour, when people are tired because they just woke up or tired because they just finished a day of work, while I when I'm a tourist I railfan at off-peak hours usually. But it just strikes me that the mood seems to be much bleaker among Philly subway riders. I hope this isn't a sad reflection of life in my city.
Mark
May I suggest a few off-peak rides just to check your calibration? Might work wonders. :)
: )
Mark
Too bad that railfan seat is upholstered in grungy filthy dry-clean-only fabric...
Mark
I have come to the aid of people in need of medical attention on several occasions and so got to meet and workwith some very nice and dedicated transit officers, EMTs and passersby. All shapes, colors and manners of speech.
I like my city. Does everyone else find it that dismal?
Mark
Ok, with that out of the way, here in Chicago people don't usually look uniformly downcast. Of course some do on any given day, but not all.
I'd say that, in general, people look most downcast late at night. At rush hour people often look distracted, but there are usually groups of friends talking, too, and people reading or phoning people or doing work if they're seated.
What I notice is that people on different lines look different. Some lines have older riders, some have a lot of kids, some have hip 20-somethings, some have professional 20-30 somethings, some are mostly black, some are mostly white, some are mostly hispanic, some have a good mix. Friday nights there tend to be people dressed a lot differently after 4pm, fewer suits, more evening wear, more punks or ravers from the suburbs. On Cubs days, the north lines tend to have a lot of blue-wearing people, on Sox days there are a few more black-and-white wearing riders, although I think more people take the train to the Cubs than to the Sox. The Purple Line Express almost always has a slightly older, more professional crowd since it mainly serves a wealthy suburb.
I only watch people on the subway when I'm sitting and the trains stops and I see if there is anyone to whom it is justified to give up my seat (I do not always notice) or when I'm standing and I need to figure out where to stand to get a seat at the next stop.
Oh man, that hurts. You're really missing out on A LOT!
This is how I think it could work. My reasoning will follow.
E: 179 St-Hillside Exp-Queens Blvd regular exp-53rd St-8th Ave EXPRESS-WTC
F: Jamaica Ctr-Queens Blvd super exp-63rd St-6th Ave-(regular)
G: 179 St-Hillside/Queens Blvd local-Crosstown-(regular)
R: 179 St-Hillside/Queens Blvd local-60th St-Bway-(regular)
V: Jamaica Ctr-Queens Blvd super exp-63rd St-6th Ave-2nd Ave/Houston
C (sidenote): would skip 50th, 23rd, and Spring
REASONING
1) No merges required whatsoever in Queens except for the G and R west of Queens Plaza which is only a small problem. (The F and V don't need to merge with the E because they stay on a lower level at all times).
2) Before we all go crazy, the fact that only three services are running on the Queens Blvd regular tracks and only two go to Manhattan is resolved because the E is converted into what I call a high-frequency line. With no merges with other lines (the C runs 8th Ave express), and lots of space at 179, it can run at more than 20-25 TPH without causing congestion.
3) I assume that anyone who enters the subway at Forest Hills or points east will go with the F and V, releasing the E from some congestion.
4) True, no more direct 53rd St-6th Ave service. If it is needed so much, one can get the high frequency E line at 7th Ave using the B/D. Maybe as a bonus, some E trains could use this connection and then transfer back to their line at West 4th, but this defeats the purpose of eliminating merges and speeding up the line.
What do you all think?
I like it.
Problem 2: Terminal capacity at Jamaica Center is about 12 tph. Terminal capacity at WTC is about 15 tph.
Problem 3: Many passengers from the Jamaica Center branch are bound for 53rd Street (including the popular transfer to the 6) and to 8th Avenue. They'll all transfer to the E at Continental.
Problem 4: The 2001 service changes finally gave Queens Boulevard passengers two direct services to Manhattan, one of them to the popular 53rd Street line. You're undoing those substantial service improvements for local passengers. In the process, you're forcing many of them to transfer at Roosevelt and Queens Plaza to the E. Total service through 53rd will be reduced, so the E will be more crowded than now.
Problem 5: There needs to be direct 6th-53rd service. Transfers at 7th won't cut it. They're barely tolerable on weekends as it is.
The local tracks coming from 74 St/B'way/Roosevelt would turn south into the LIRR r.o.w. and go express to Queensbridge during rush hours. Nonrush, the trains would go via Queens Plaza.
The effects would be profound, on both the Queens IND and the Flushing line, particularly on the latter. I suspect the Flushing would see at least a 10 to 15% drop in passenger load. The IRT/IND transfer crush at 74th/B'way/Roosevelt would also be reduced, some of it diverted at Shea Stadium.
The idea that all trains would go express from Jackson Hts would also have a profound psychological effect on riders. They'd stay on local trains rather than attempt to save a couple or three minutes transferring to an express.
This would only be an additional 15 thru tph, but the they would make their presence known. There would also be no track switching.
And of all possible projects outside of Manhattan, this one is probably the most easily doable, and the one with the most bang for the buck.
One fantasy I have is to connect the northern Brooklyn leg of the G train to the Williamsburgh Bridge, ramping up via the BQE. This cannot happen, tho', until a new East River link is built.
Your locals between Continental and Roosevelt would run via 63rd. Everybody bound for 53rd would have to transfer to the E/F at Roosevelt. Even those bound for 60th/Lex would have to transfer at Roosevelt.
Half of your locals between Roosevelt and QP wouldn't run into Manhattan at all. Everyone on the G bound for Manhattan would have to transfer at QP. Everyone on the R/G bound for 53rd would have to transfer at QP. (This was exactly the situation before 12/16/01.)
And the resulting E/F will be more crowded than ever.
This sounds like an answer in search of a question. What's the problem with the current arrangement that this attempts to solve? That a lot of people transfer from locals to crowded expresses at Roosevelt? That's their business. Provide them with accurate information about how much time they save (or lose) by transferring and let them make whichever choice they prefer.
Congestion, particularly on the Flushing train. For the IRT stations from 74th to 111th St, I suspect 20 or 30% (or more) of originating/exiting passengers would be diverted to the Northern Blvd line; ditto for people boarding at Main St or Shea and transferring at QB Plaza. This would bring only a small amount of relief to the Queens Blvd line, but relief it would definitely bring.
Eh? I thought he said all trains from Flushing would merge into the QB local, and all trains from Forest Hills would run express from Roosevelt to Queensbridge? Sounds like everything would go into Manhattan...
One other problem is that the inner local stations lose access to Queens Boulevard itself entirely without backtracking via Queens Plaza.
And just what is wrong in wanting to relieve the Flushing line?
Doesn't it strike you as a little odd to be talking about Flushing first, and then relief?
I'm sorry, that was just too perfect a setup.
:0)
I tend to think this is true only because 1 out of every 2 Queens Blvd trains goes there. I think if it was made easier to get to 60th/Lex, some of the crowds would head that way. Not only can you pick up the 6 but also the 4/5, and the transfer is much easier. So have two lines instead of one go to Lex/60th, say the Q and the R. Have the Q replace the V basically in Queens. Let the F go back to 53rd and let 63rd be covered by the super express(es).
What about this:
E 8 Av local
F via 53 St Hillside Express (with E)
R via 63 St Super Express
C can stay 8 Av local
G & V as you planned it.
Still 6 Av & 8 Av service from Hillside/53 St/Queens Blvd
Broadway (and 6 Av) service to JC
I have a somewhat different plan:
2 tracks from the center tracks at Kew Gardens to a lower level at Continental Av, then continuing under the QB ROW before rising to either side of the exisiting station at Woodhaven Blvd, then diving under the existing line and running under QB (not Broadway), with a station at 69th St and another at 46th St (for the 7), then connecting to both <21st St> stations (53rd St and 63rd St lines).
Heading the other way, I would extend the Hillside Av Exp to 268th St, and the current E Line under Merrick Blvd with a branch under Linden Blvd to 235th St and a main line continuing with a dogleg at the end to Rosedale LIRR and Green Acres Mall.
As with any fantasy QB, the Rockaway Line would be recaptured by QB Locals.
(Of marginal relevance is a J/Z extension under Jamaica Av then a large loop outbound on Hollis and inbound on Jamaica to Belmont Park.)
Resultant services:
8TH AVENUE
(A) 207 - CPW Exp - 8th Exp - Fulton Exp - Lefferts
(C) 168/WH - CPW Lcl - 8th Lcl - Fulton Lcl - Euclid
(E) 235/Linden - Queens Exp - 53 - 8th Lcl - WTC
(H) 268/Hillside - Queens 2Super Exp - 53 - 8th Exp - Fulton Exp - Far Rockaway (some turn short at Howard Beach)
6TH AVENUE
(B) BPB - CPW Lcl - 6th Exp - Brighton Exp - BB
(D) 205 - CPW Exp - 6th Exp - 4th Exp - WE - CI
(F) 179 - Queens Exp - 63 - 6th Lcl - Culver - CI
(V) Rockaway Park (some short turns at Liberty Av) - Queens Lcl - 53 - 6th Lcl - Myrtle - Metropolitan
(X) Green Acres Mall - Queens Super Exp - 63 - 6th Exp - 4th Lcl - 9th Av
CROSSTOWN
(G) Court Sq - Smith/9th
NASSAU
(J)/(Z) Belmont Park - Broad skip-stop
(M) deceased - see 6th Av (V)
14TH STREET
(L) 8th Av - Canarsie
BROADWAY
(N) Astoria - Bway Exp - 4th Exp - SB - CI
(Q) 125/Lex - Bway Exp - Brighton Lcl - CI
(R) Continental - Bway Lcl - 4th Lcl - 95
(W) Astoria - Bway Lcl - Whitehall
SHUTTLE
(S) Franklin Av - Prospect Pk
I have a somewhat different plan:
2 tracks from the center tracks at Kew Gardens to a lower level at Continental Av, then continuing under the QB ROW before rising to either side of the exisiting station at Woodhaven Blvd, then diving under the existing line and running under QB (not Broadway), with a station at 69th St and another at 46th St (for the 7), then connecting to both 21st St stations (53rd St and 63rd St lines).
Heading the other way, I would extend the Hillside Av Exp to 268th St, and the current E Line under Merrick Blvd with a branch under Linden Blvd to 235th St and a main line continuing with a dogleg at the end to Rosedale LIRR and Green Acres Mall.
As with any fantasy QB, the Rockaway Line would be recaptured by QB Locals.
(Of marginal relevance is a J/Z extension under Jamaica Av then a large loop outbound on Hollis and inbound on Jamaica to Belmont Park.)
Resultant services:
8TH AVENUE
(A) 207 - CPW Exp - 8th Exp - Fulton Exp - Lefferts
(C) 168/WH - CPW Lcl - 8th Lcl - Fulton Lcl - Euclid
(E) 235/Linden - Queens Exp - 53 - 8th Lcl - WTC
(H) 268/Hillside - Queens 2Super Exp - 53 - 8th Exp - Fulton Exp - Far Rockaway (some turn short at Howard Beach)
6TH AVENUE
(B) BPB - CPW Lcl - 6th Exp - Brighton Exp - BB
(D) 205 - CPW Exp - 6th Exp - 4th Exp - WE - CI
(F) 179 - Queens Exp - 63 - 6th Lcl - Culver - CI
(V) Rockaway Park (some short turns at Liberty Av) - Queens Lcl - 53 - 6th Lcl - Myrtle - Metropolitan
(X) Green Acres Mall - Queens Super Exp - 63 - 6th Exp - 4th Lcl - 9th Av
CROSSTOWN
(G) Court Sq - Smith/9th
NASSAU
(J)/(Z) Belmont Park - Broad skip-stop
(M) deceased - see 6th Av (V)
14TH STREET
(L) 8th Av - Canarsie
BROADWAY
(N) Astoria - Bway Exp - 4th Exp - SB - CI
(Q) 125/Lex - Bway Exp - Brighton Lcl - CI
(R) Continental - Bway Lcl - 4th Lcl - 95
(W) Astoria - Bway Lcl - Whitehall
SHUTTLE
(S) Franklin Av - Prospect Pk
Queens Blvd is Wide Enough to add one track to each side of the existing tracks (similar to the 6th ave line and Path train).
Then I was wondering if anyone know where the home street scene in the movie was taken, when they leave their "house", there is also an el in the backround.
All of the actual station scenes and "Brighton Beach business district" scenes were taken in Ridgewood at the Seneca Ave station. Here are some scenes from that taken at the Seneca Ave station. At the time I remember the filming, and it was in 1985, and Seneca was strewn with grafitti. The movie company actually painted the station for the movie. It looked so good at a time when every elevated station in the system was covered with grafitti in every inch. They converted 1985 Seneca Ave into 1937 Brighton Beach.
The "Planter's Peanuts" ad that is still visible to this day at Seneca Ave was painted there by the movie company especially for the movie. It is not a real ad, and "A Lux Cutlery" never really existed on Seneca Ave, only for the movie too. The sign is scarred by grafitti now, but very visible yet on the side of the building.
By the way, for those that didn't see this movie, it's a really nice little movie, and worth the rental, even without the cool subway scenes. It's about a very poor Jewish family living in 1937 Brighton Beach during the Depression, with WWII looming. Great scenes of Ridgewood.
Wahington Cemetary, Bay Parkway on the F?
-Larry
As usual, subtalk comes through.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/ref=br_ss_/102-4541615-3457745
One of my favorite lines from the play (which I saw on Broadway in early October 1984) was when Eugene's older brother says to him in frustration and anger, "How come every time I'm in trouble I gotta tell you what a naked girl looks like ?"
At the play's beginning, Eugene talks so much about "mortal sins", at first I wasn't sure if he was Jewish, or Catholic !
There's an episode of the new "Outer Limits" called "Dark Matters" in which one spaceship crew member says to another, "OK, I'm Jewish, and you're Catholic. That means we both have guilt in common. Now, what does that mean in our present problem ?"
And those trains were R27-R30's that were going by. I wonder if the sound is actually the R27-30's going by, or if they had old train recordings that they added in. Can anyone tell when they hear the trains go by (many scenes filmed at Seneca have the sounds of the trains going by).
Too bad you couldn't stay on that train until 125th St. If it didn't get stuck by a hippo R68 on the "D", there is a stretch of track between 103rd and 110th St when it goes down that ramp. Your ears would have probably popped.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
How are you doing?
The ways you could tell the rebuilt vs unrebuilt R30s were:
1. Rebuilt R30s had a smoother paintjob than unrebuilt;
2. Rebuilt R30s had door indicator lights for each door panel (interior), unrebuilt R30s didn't;
3. Rebuilt R30s had that emergency yellow indicator light on the exterior, unrebuilt R30s didn't;
4. Unrebuilt R30s still had operating side rollsign lights, the rebuilt R30s rollsign-though were operating when first rebuilt, were no longer operating by the time they arrived on the "C";
5. When all else fails, the numbers (look at above paragraph).
In my opinion, neither the rebuilt nor unrebuilt R30/R30As should have been retired when they were.
Wayne
til next time
So far as I know, the bank of escalators was from the London Underground, because I watched the end credits carefully, and recalled seeing no mention of an American transit system being used as a location for filming.
What I'd like to know is how many years do you need to get X amount of vacation? Like with the TA it's 2 weeks from years 1 to 3, 4 weeks from 3 to 15 and 5 weeks after 15. Is the NYPD similar?
Peace,
rondogg728
After 2 years, you're entitled to 2 weeks vacation. (10 days) Uaually during the first 3 months of the year.
After 5 years you get 4 weeks vacation. (20 days)
After 20 years you get 5 weeks vacation. (25 days)
I remember hearing on the automated messages "If the exam is less than 2 weeks away and you haven't gotten your card, push (whatever the number was)" Now I can't get through...
Anyone get their card in the mail yet?
Anyone know what number to call???
(212) 487-JOBS rings and rings
(212) 669-1357 rings and rings
(212) 669-7000 says to call (212) 487-JOBS
Thanks for the help all...
Danny
1 Centre Street in Manhattan right?
In that case, he'd make a PERFECT T/O.
I guess I'll try again tomorrow. =)
I guess they turn their automated phones off on holidays. It slipped my mind that yesterday was a holiday since I was at work.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/126453p-113119c.html
John
With two major exceptions: the ad panels don't have to gather real-time data about train locations, and they're being paid for by deep-pocketed advertisers, not a cash-strapped state agency.
It's a cool idea if the other systems were in place where system delays and next train location could be accurately displayed, but that sort infrastructure doesn't really exist now. I think we're lucky that we get some beeps when a train is approaching a station.
If replaced with flat-panel displays, they could accurately indicate the services that are actually running now. If similar flat-panel displays were installed on trains, passengers would spare themselves the (time-wasting) trouble of getting off a train to transfer to another train that isn't running or has delays. (For instance, say I'm on a southbound 3 train, planning to transfer to the W to Brooklyn at Times Square. If I'm informed before I get off that Q trains are running through the tunnel due to emergency track repairs at Canal, I can stay on the train to Atlantic and bypass the delays. Yes, this happened to me a few weeks ago, and I was late to work as a result, even though I was aiming to be there 15-20 minutes early. Had I stayed on the 3, I wouldn't have been late.)
Of course, PA/CIS would make the displays far more valuable, but even now I think they'd be worthwhile.
Come to think of it, they do that now with a buzzer, right?
Neither can the tower, I guess.
The other day I was waiting in GCT for a southbound 4/5/6 and they announced a southbound local was approaching GCT.
It turned out to be a TSQ shuttle being brought in, and of course it didn't stop at the station.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=576520
And those LED signs are difficult to read. Flat-panel screens or even old-fashioned TV screens would be much clearer.
Lively ad at Broadway and 86th St. is a sign of 80 more to come
Hey, David G never mentioned this! When did they put that up?
Here's a brief video (509k) that I took on September 14.
So when are you heading out to ride the 'birds? I thought maybe you would have been out railfanning all day.
No railfanning for me today, since I hurt my leg Shabbos morning and I want to give it a chance to recover before I have to use it all day tomorrow. I was thinking of doing some busfanning instead, but it looks like I'm not going to bother.
I do not consider the placement of moving image advertising in subway stations to be a positive aspect of electronic communication progress.
Minitel had two strikes against it. It was primitive being introduced in the early 1980's - 300 baud range. It was proprietary and under the control of the Post Office. The only third party appliances that I saw at that time were do it yourself articles in Toute L'Electronique. Remember, its primary purpose was to replace telephone directories.
Still, it might have blown away US technology, had it not been for the Carterfone decision. Ma Bell was an even greater deterrent to innovation than government post offices. Internet development would not have been possible with 201 datasets. Low cost, high speed modems were starting to proliferate in the US by the mid 1980's that coincided with the introduction of the IBM PC, with its open architecture. This provided the infrastructure that made first BBS's and then ISP's a viable proposition.
Most of the world's telephone systems remained closed to third party attachments for quite a while longer. I was remotely servicing factory floor automation equipment by the late 1980's. The usual operational mode was to buy the modem locally - this strategy worked in Japan. However, even by the mid 1990's it was illegal to use third party modems in Germany - even acoustic couplers.
til next time
(shakes rattle).
Where did you hear this?
#8667 S 63rd Street Shuttle [I wish they would change that damn sign already!!!]
Met a railfan last night who didn't make any of the MOD trips & was surprised to learn that it may be already too late to catch a Red Bird.
There is a old saying about NOT putting off today what could be done tommorow ... sometimes tommorow is too late :-(
http://www.transitchicago.com/downloads/budget/2004sum.pdf
It includes a lot of numbers, a lot of descriptions, and a few comparisons to other systems including New York, Boston, Washington, Philly and LA and a few others in places.
Includes the proposed fare increase details, too.
U.S. Rep. William O. Lipinski, who represents the Southwest side of Chicago, is pushing for them. While I don't think he's made any threat, there is certainly an understanding that if the CTA and City support his interests he will support theirs.
Here is a link to another story about it:
http://www.heritagetrolley.org/planChicagoRTOL1.htm
Elias
R62A's/R62's:
-Bland.
-Lack the RF window.
-Loud.
-Pantograph gates.
R142's/R142A's:
-Colorful exterior.
-Bright interior.
-MUCH quieter.
-RF window.
-Baloney springs.
-Sturdy cab door.
Get my point?
Besides, even if they dont have railfan windows they still rule in my opinion.
David
When the R62A's were first being delivered they had so many problems the MTA nearly canceled the order. Thats what makes the lemons.
I said they were the second best lemons ever because once they started working without problems thats when they started to get that reliability we all come to know.
Teething problems do not make a car class a lemon. Every car class has teething problems when new.
David
Even Arnines?
David
I belive they were the best damn lemons on the road.
David
-Stef
(1) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 1 train.
This is a South Ferry bound 1 local train.
(1) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound 1 local train.
This is a Riverdale bound 1 train.
(2) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 2 train.
This is an East 180 Street bound 2 train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 2 express train.
This is a Flatbush Avenue bound 2 train.
(2) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 2 train.
This is a Bronx bound 2 express train.
This is a Wakefield bound 2 train.
This is a Wakefield bound 2ooo(twoooo) train.
(3) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound 3 express train.
This is a New Lots Avenue bound 3 train.
(3) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 3 train.
This is a Harlem-148 Street bound 3 express train.
(4) Downtown
This is a Manhattan 4 train.
This is a Brooklyn Bridge bound 4 local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 4 express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 4 local train.
This is a Bowling Green bound 4 express train.
This is an Atlantic Avenue bound 4 express train.
This is a Crown Heights bound 4 express train.
This is a New Lots Avenue bound 4 local train.
(4) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 4 express train.
This is a Manhattan bound 4 local train.
This is a 125 Street bound 4 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 4 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 4 local train.
This is a Woodlawn bound 4 train.
(5) Downtown
This is an East 180 Street bound 5 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train.
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 express train.
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train via the 7 Avenue Line.
This is an Atlantic Avenue bound 5 express train.
This is a Brooklyn College-Flatbush Avenue bound 5 express train.
This is a Crown Heights bound 5 express train.
This is an East 180 Street bound 5 train. (Old Announcement)
This is a Manhattan bound 5 train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Flatbush Avenue bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
(5) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 5 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 5 local train.
This is a Bronx bound 5 express train via the 7 Avenue Line.
This is an Eastchester bound 5 local train.
This is an Eastchester bound 5 express train.
This is a Nereid Avenue bound 5 express train.
This is an Eastchester bound 5.
This is a Mott Haven 149 Street-Grand Concourse bound 5 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train. (Old Announcement)
This is a Bronx bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is an Eastchester bound 5 train.(Old Announcement)
This is an Eastchester bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Nereid Avenue bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
(6) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 6 train.
This is a Manhattan bound 6 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 6 express train.
This is a Brooklyn Bridge bound 6 train.
(6) Uptown
This is a 125 Street bound 6 train.
This is a Bronx bound 6 train.
This is a Bronx bound 6 local train.
This is a Parkchester bound 6 local train.
This is a Pelham Bay Park bound 6 train.
This is a Pelham Bay Park bound 6 express train.
(7) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 7 train.
This is a Manhattan bound 7 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 7 express train.
This is a Times Square bound 7 train.
(7) Uptown
This is a Queens bound 7 train.
This is a Flushing bound 7 train.
This is a Flushing bound 7 local train.
This is a Flushing bound 7 express train.
(9) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 9 train.
This is a South Ferry bound 9 local train.
(9) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound 9 local train.
This is a Riverdale bound 9 train.
(A) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound A express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound A local train.
This is a Queens bound A express train.
This is a Queens bound A local train.
This is a Ozone Park bound A train.
This is a Far Rockaway bound A train.
This is a Rockaway Park bound A train.
(A) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound A train.
This is a Manhattan bound A express train.
This is a Mahattan bound A local train.
This is an Inwood bound A express train.
This is an Inwood bound A local train.
(B) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound B local train.
This is a Herald Square bound B local train.
(B) Uptown
This is a Harlem bound B local train.
This is a Bronx bound B local train.
This is a Bedford Park Boulevard bound B local train.
(C) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound C local train.
This is an Euclid Avenue bound C local train.
(C) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound C local train.
This is a Washington Heights bound C local train.
(D) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound D train.
This is a Manhattan bound D express train.
This is a Herald Square bound D express train.
(D) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound D express train.
This is a Norwood bound D train.
This is a Norwood bound D express train.
(E) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound E express train.
This is a MAnhattan bound E local train.
This is a World Trade Center bound E local train.
(E) Uptown
This is a Queens bound E local train.
This is a Jamaica bound E express train.
This is a Jamaica bound E local train.
(F) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound F express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound F local train.
This is a King Highway bound F train.
This is an Avenue X bound F train.
(F) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound F train.
This is a Queens bound F local train.
This is a Jamaica bound F express train.
(G) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound G train.
This is a Smith-9th Street bound G train.
(G) Uptown
This is a Queens bound G train.
This is a Court Square bound G train.
This is a Forest Hills bound G local train.
(J) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound J train.
This is a Manhattan bound J train.
This is a Manhattan bound J express train.
This is a Broad Street bound J express train.
This is a Broad Street bound J train.
This is a Chambers Street bound J train.
(J) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound J train.
This is a Brooklyn bound J express train.
This is a Queens bound J train.
This is a Jamaica bound J train.
This is a Jamaica bound J express train.
(L) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound L train.
This is an 8 Avenue bound L train.
(L) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound L train.
This is a Broadway Junction bound L train.
This is a Canarsie bound L train.
(M) Downtown
This is a Mrytle Avenue bound M train.
This is a Brooklyn bound M train.
This is a Manhattan bound M local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound M local train.
This is a 9 Avenue bound M local train.
This is a Bay Parkway bound M local train.
(M) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound M local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound M local train.
This is a Queens bound M local train.
This is a Middle Village-Metropolitan Avenue bound M train.
(N) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound N train.
This is a Brooklyn bound N local train.
This is a Gravesend bound N express train.
(N) Uptown
This is a Pacific Street bound N express train.
This is a Manhattan bound N express train.
This is a Queens bound N local train.
This is an Astoria bound N train.
(Q) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound (Q) express train.
This is a Brighton Beach bound (Q) local train.
(Q) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound (Q) local train.
This is a Midtown bound (Q) express train.
Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound express train.
This is a Brighton Beach bound express train.
Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound express train.
This is a Midtown bound express train.
(R) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound R local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound R local train.
This is a Bay Ridge bound R local train.
(R) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound R local train.
This is a 36 Street bound R train.
This is a Queens bound R local train.
This is a Forest Hills bound R local train.
(V) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound V local train.
This is a Lower East Side bound V local train.
(V) Uptown
This is a Queens bound V local train.
This is a Forest Hills bound V local train.
(W) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound W train.
This is a Brooklyn bound W express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound W local train via Lower Manhattan.
This is a Coney Island bound W express train.
This is a Coney Island bound W local train.
(W) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound W express train.
This is a Manhattan bound W local train.
This is a Queens bound W express train.
This is a Queens bound W local train.
This is an Astoria bound train.
(Z) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound Z train.
This is a Mahattan bound Z express train.
This is a Broad Street bound Z express train.
(Z) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound Z express train.
This is a Queens bound Z express train.
This is a Jamaic bound Z train.
Shuttles
42 Street Shuttle
This is a Grand Central bound 42 Street Shuttle train.
This is a Times Square bound 42 Street Shuttle train.
Ozone Park Shuttle
This is a Queens bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
This is an Ozone Park bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
This is a Brooklyn bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
This is an Euclid Avenue bound Ozone Park Shuttle train.
Rockaway Park Shuttle
This is a Rockaway Park bound Rockaway Park Shuttle train.
This is a Broad Channel bound Rockaway Shuttle.
Grand Street Shuttle
This is a Grand Street bound Grand Street Shuttle train.
This is a West 4 Street bound Grand Street SHuttle train.
Franklin Avenue Shuttle
This is a Frankln Avenue bound Franklin Avenue Shuttle train.
This is a Prospect Park bound Franklin Avenue Shuttle train.
Staten Island Railroad
This is a Tottenville bound Staten Island Railroad train.
This is a Ball Park bound Staten Island Railroad train.
This is a Saint George bound Staten Island Railroad train.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
If they would have just lowered the rates to be more reasonable, I would have used it... or if they had offered a prepaid calling card at train stations...
Any other railroads besides Amtrak offer railfone?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Of course, cellphones are ubiquitous now, and (as far as I know) nobody died because you couldn't use your cellphone in the Penn tubes. And Penn Station still has plenty of payphones.
Many trains in Japan had on-board phones when I was there a couple of years ago. In a country where almost everyone has a cell phone, I was surprised to encounter people other than myself using them. The phones accept prepaid phone cards that are easily purchased from vending machines in any reasonably big train station. Some of the phone cards have train photos and stats printed on them, so maybe the railroads make some money off of each such card that you buy.
38 + 58= 96
That means that up to 44 more Redbirds can be saved even if the TA reaches its 90% goal! That could include all remaining 36 at Corona. They should be kept running on the 7 until 2004. Tell the TA now! help save history!
#3 West End Jeff
David
David
Not his fault if the TA or Kawasaki may be hitting a snag causing a delay in shipment.
WIDECAB5 rules !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Of course back in the 1942 at rush hour every other MFL train headed to Bridge-Pratt had to short turn at Erie-Torresdale because of a lack of power conversion equipment at Frankford.
I'm lazy today. Somebody else link it. It's good reading.
Still kinda bothered that they are doing it at all. This, IMHO, is not what Penn Station needs at all—it needs more tracks and platforms, plus that much-talked=about extra tunnel under the Hudson River. The article does not specify what will be spent on turning the PO building into a “train station” (which is inaccurate—they are merely making a concourse out of it); all I know thus far is that even while Bloomberg and Pataki were talking budget shortfalls, they suddenly found $230 million to buy this building from the USPS (but not a red cent towards new tracks, platforms or tunnels, the tunnel part they are leaving up to NJ Transit and Amtrak). Stuff like that makes me take whatever politicians say with not a pinch, but a bag of salt (because they ain’t worth their salt, as the Romans might say)…
Link here.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10132003.shtml#Gunn
John
AEM7
Gunn's idea is to use it or the Bombardier "turbo" for speed & economy.
Article by Van Wilkins
"During the APTA Commuter Rail 2003 conference, Colorado Railcar demonstrated how it's DMU prototype can handle two unpowered coaches with no difficulty. The design would be suitable for the proposed Metra STAR route."
This was the caption under a photo of the DMU with two coaches behind it.
Gun should buy stainless steel DMUs. The carbon-steel ones will rust out in no time.
The promo material says it can be configured in up to 6 car trains ... I assume that means one DMU at each end. All this for $2.9M.
Critics have attached it's weight & size vs. light rail applications.
Gunn is looking to use it in a interurban vs. commuter role and keep the Genesis on the long haul routes. The Acela TURBINE would fill another nitch.
Primary suspension Chevron rubber spring
Secondary suspension Air spring
What is this, a Green Line Trolley running on FRA track?
Service braking 1.5 mphps 1.5 mphps
Brakes Pneumatic tread and disk brakes
And all this for just 1.5 mphps? You might as well throw in a track brake
Air conditioning Four self-contained units mounted center of car, between levels
Good luck keeping them operational.
Oh, and towing two coaches -- if I read the specs correctly, each car generates 1,000hp traction and 200hp HEP. So the 200hp HEP is supposed to supply 3 cars? Hmmm.
The transmission and acceleration doesn't look too bad. Seems to me that Colorado Railcars has adapted European DMU technology for American rails. Pity about the crappy body shape. Once those bugs are worked out, I'm sure it'll be a great car.
AEM7
Woah. Where on the NYS&W do they have enough mostly straight track to do 120MPH?
Cant Deficiency (Superelevation)
These DMUs can deal with a lot more Superelevation than hauled coaches.
Why is that?
Engine = heavy
Underfloor = low
Underfloor engine = low center of gravity
Coach = empty
Empty = light
Light = unstable
Unstable = more bounce
More bounce = more lift
More lift = more derailments
DMU = coach + engine
Coach + engine = heavier (than a coach)
Heavy = less lift
Less lift = less derailments
AEM7
The constraint to higher speeds between NYC and BOS is not the curves. Most curves on the Shoreline could be traversed at 75mph by ordinary passenger trains, and 85mph-90mph by Acela Express sets.
The constraint to higher speeds between NYC and BOS is identified here only by its reporting marks: MNCW, where the average speed (according to schedule) is 75 minutes to traverse 64 miles, or 42.666666mph.
AEM7
Also, NY to Boston has too much traffic, unless they used them on the fringes of operations (off-peek). But they are too expensive to keep them just to run early Am or late PM. That's why an Interurban type of operations seems to make since for them. Their other advantage is that you can eaisly couple/un-couple the trailers, i.e. many other such attempts suffered from a ridgid train set (link bar, articulated, etc.)
The Acela Expresses have already rounded such curves at 100+ mph.
Not, for example, the SES-SWW curve just before New London station. There are other examples, but I don't have the linespeeds handy. AEM7
More correctly, Acela has rounded curves at 100mph where the Amfleet consist was limited to 75mph. If the AEM-7 was towing a Talgo consist, or a low-floor single-level consist, it could probably run through such curves at around 85mph-90mph.
Acela runs at a maximum cant deficiency of about 185mm. In Europe, conventional rolling stock are permitted to run at a maximum cant deficiency of 165mm (150mm normally). In certain locations where historically higher speeds have been allowed, up to 170mm-175mm has been measured. Redesigning the rolling stock could allow much higher cant deficiencies than currently allowed for Amfleet-based consists. AEM-7 itself (probably) isn't the constraint in rounding curves.
AEM7
All right, fair enough.
Do you think the E60 or ALP44 locos could do as well on curves as the AEM7?
I'm not sure about the E60, they are called 'flying bricks' by those who operate them. They have rigid 6-wheel trucks, which isn't particularly good for high cant-deficiency work. You can really only find this out by constructing strain gauges and doing test runs. The constraint on the E60 may well be weight rather than curves.
I don't know about the ALP46. ALP44 is essentially identical to the AEM-7, except in modular electronics.
AEM7
Did you mean close rail centers (as in out of gauge) or as in there is the need to make many stops in order to pick up all the passengers?
I don't remember what I told you, but the Shoreline problems is, listed in order of problematicness from most to least: (1) MNCW, (2) curves between New London and Providence, (3) Station stops in Massachusetts between Providence and Boston.
AEM7
The one demonstrator that exists did 120 MPH on a FRA test conducted in October of 2002 on the NYS & W
It went nowhere near that fast. Try 50 mph. And where on the NYSW does there exist the signaling to permit such speeds? The CRC DMU has a top speed of 90 mph, BTW.
The promo material says it can be configured in up to 6 car trains
Read the promo again. Five-car trains.
Critics have attached it's weight & size vs. light rail applications
Which critics are these? Have these same critics not noted that it would cost far less in terms of startup since such vehicles would be ready for FRA tracks.
Gunn is looking to use it in a interurban vs. commuter role
Since when is Amtrak suddenly an interurban operator?? Perhaps you mean intercity instead?
The Acela TURBINE would fill another nitch (sic)
Oh no, the so-called “Acela Turbine” is never going to be used by any operator in the USA, or any other country for that matter. Especially since diesels are already outdoing it in terms of performance…
The details I provided were from a Railpace article in their Dec '02 issue, by Frank T. Reilly. Are you saying he had it all wrong ?
The one page article at least has a nice 5 photo spread.
"... The stated operating speed is 90 MPH, but during FRA testing it reached 120 MPH. It accelerates from 0 to 55 in 38 seconds ... was on NYS&W on Friday October 11th ... at 11:30 the car departed Hackensack for a run at track speed to Hawthorne ..."
Huh? Is this the same turbine that's designed by bombardier since they did the acela's? If so, those things use Diesel. I can't see any diesal trains being used on the NEC however, it'd be stupid. It takes more energy and time to get up to speed than to just capture the electric, then it's another infrastructure etc. But You probably agree with me on that point.
As far as the Colorado DMU, I missed that photo-op, the person who emailed me back in their offices were very nice too.
Other than that, if it's attractive and sells the seats, go for it.
I think he means: diesel ignition engine beats the hell out of diesel turbine engine, performance wise. I am not sure that claim is true, but diesel ignition engine is definitely easier to maintain than the Bombardier thing.
I can't see any diesel trains being used on the NEC however, it'd be stupid.
So, how do the North Carolina trains (#79/#80) operate?
AEM7
Gas turbine engines, I've heard of. Steam turbines too. What, pray, is a diesel turbine engine.
Florida Jet Train
some of the files are big, but I wanted to make sure the graphics and and text were still intact.
The engineers at the event had more information just listening to them than the pamphlets do though...
I think by that definition you could almost argue that a Boeing 747 is a diesel.
There isn't much difference between the fuel used by commercial jet planes and commercial diesel fuel. So much so that I believe the military use a common fuel in everything from diesel trucks to jet fighters, as the small compromise on efficiency/cost is offset by the logistical flexibility that gives.
Looking at the scanned brochures, I cannot see any reference to diesel. But I would guess that anyone trying to sell a gas turbine powered train on a largely diesel engined rail system would probably sell on the message that the thing could drink from the existing diesel fuel supply chain.
sorry, I was referring to replacing equipment that runs solely on the NEC, not passing through/leaving. Take DVARPA(did i get it right?) recommending SEPTA stop using electrics and switch to fossil fuels, or replacing Acela electric with the "jettrain".
I should've said replacing and not "used". Oops.
There's a good idea! Too bad Budd just makes auto pieces today, I know other people have learned to shot-weld, Bombardier, Kawasaki and the like, but they just haven't mastered it, turned it into an art like Budd did.
I wonder if we could take the old M1s coming up for retirement by MN and LIRR, as well as the Silverliners SEPTA will be replacing (even those that weren't of Budd pedigree) and turn them into DMUs. It would involve completely gutting the entire train, removing all propulsion, seats, controls, everything. They'd be fitted with some sort of diesel powerplant, I'm sure the Busnuts from across the fence can chime in here, the basic choices seem to be Cat, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and 'other'. It'd have to be somewhere between 800 and 1500hp per car, and most of all be reliable, no Seldom Powered Vehicles here. I'd also say gas turbines, a regenerative model with extensive use of composite and ceramic materials, but we've been down that road before, and I guess not too many mistakes need to be repeated. But if it was successful, then we'd have a DMU that'd be somewhere around 100,000lbs, very powerful, and fully FRA compatible. All we need to do now is figure out how to stop at low platforms, how did the Gas Turbine cars do it?
Let's not go overboard on the nostalgia. Budd deserves credit for pioneering the use of stainless steel in all kinds of applications, but that was a long time ago, and we've come quite a distance since then. ANF Industrie (now Bombardier) was asked to design a graffitti-resistant carbody that still offered very handsome looks and came up with the R68, which is every bit as good a carbody design for the 1980s as Budd did in the 1960s. And Kawasaki today is every bit as good at the business as Budd was back then. It's possible Budd's railcar folks get some credit if some of them migrated to Kawasaki's payroll.
Was Budd concerned about straining the motors, or the transmission?
There is no motor. It's gearbox and the hydraulic transmission. Usually the thing that goes when towed too fast in a hydraulic transmission is the gearbox, since the gearbox sits between static hydraulic fluids (prime mover is not turning) and the moving fluid coupler (since the wheel is turning).
British Rail DMU's have no problems being towed at their rated speeds, so they must have a way to disengage the fluid coupling while being towed.
AEM7
That sounds like a commercial consideration. They do not want to sell a bunch of RDCs only to find that the railroad has bought a bunch of other cars from Pullman, hacked together a push-pull system and are using the RDCs as locomotives.
AEM7
The GE-44 Tonner was such a agreement. Small operators would have to put 2 or 3 togather when the load exceeded what one could do. Many still exist out there, as do a bunch of RDCs. There were only 50 SPVs, so they never got very popular.
Why can't we just for once save some money and go with off the shelf systems? FRA and congress be damned, they're smothering US Rail in 'protective' legislation that prevents Amtrak, and even some commuter companies from providing the maximum (or even minimum) amount of service for their patrons. Why can't we run Flexliners, Talents and Sprinters on US trackage? Because some piece of paper that appeared in the past 3 years said so! How come it was no problem when the New Haven ran their Talgo-esque set, yet now that it's really working in the Pacific Northwest, showing what all the rest of the US could have with very little work, it's suddenly made illegal? Hell, let's roll back the FRA rules 10 years, to before all these ridiculous laws preventing passenger railroads from carrying passengers efficiently were crafted, and back when all those great Euro designs demo'd on US Rails, then lets go get some ICE-3s, X2000, Talgos, Meridians, Talents, and Flexliners, and get a rail system that works.
If you want absolute safety, stay home and be a shut in, just make sure the gas is turn off, the rest of us have places to go.
Cuz they are shite.
Why can't we run Flexliners, Talents and Sprinters on US trackage?
Cuz Flexiliners, Talents, and Sprinters are shite.
How come it was no problem when the New Haven ran their Talgo-esque set, yet now that it's really working in the Pacific Northwest, showing what all the rest of the US could have with very little work, it's suddenly made illegal?
Suddenly made illegal? It's been illegal for years.
NYNH&H never had a Talgo-esque set, it had a United Aircraft Turbine set -- sort of an MU, but not as light as the Talgo.
great Euro designs demo'd on US Rails, then lets go get some ICE-3s, X2000, Talgos, Meridians, Talents, and Flexliners, and get a rail system that works.
Of course, you are also going to go back to 40-ton freight cars, 20-car unit trains, and 2,500hp freight locomotives like they have in Europe, right?
AEM7
A local official now regrets having allowed him to do so, since the ROW is built over.
AEM7
Perhaps Amtrak should drop the Hiawatha, put that once-great train out of it's misery, so long as Metra extends it's CNW-North line to Milwaukee. It'd be less comfortable, no doubt, but it'd also (hopefully) be more frequent and cheaper than Amtrak running the service.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10132003.shtml#Bombardier
Most would Transfer to an express train anyway. But that probally would be Better. The G to 71st-Continental. And the V to 179th.
Or not.
KOOL! How long will that take?
CAN'T WAIT!!!! Hmm, I wonder how much a ticket would cost.
I don't understand why you're so against the idea. Assuming the rolling stock is available, the line can handle it without decreasing F frequency. You won't wait ANY longer for your F, and I can get to and from Park Slope much easier. Whats more, it introduces a quick and easy transfer from the G to the 4th Ave local lines. Hell, if you wanted to, you could switch the G onto the express tracks and run it express from 4th Ave to Church. You'd speed up service a bit, at the cost of the just-mentioned 4th Ave transfer
Now, don't get me wrong, a V running express down there would be peachy keen. But extended G service, local or express breaks nothing, introduces some nice new perks, and would be easy to implement.
If you'd send both local, then I agree that the only downside is the cost.
There is another way to bring the G to 4th Avenue without extending it an inch, but it would take a lot of capital construction and it would permanently eliminate the option of an express through the area: construct a new platform above the northbound express track, cut out staircases into the existing mezzanines (that's the expensive part), and close the existing northbound platform. The G train already runs to 4th Avenue, but it's missing a platform.
If we're talking about doing construction, I'd love to gut the Bergen St interlocking, and reverse the ramps, so that the G's crosstown lines travels 'natively' downstairs to the express tracks, and the F comes up to the locals without having to switch. This could be done without using additional space, and would allow clean G service to Church, express all the way, F local. Add a new interlocking in there, which wouldn't be TOO hard [compared to doing this whole thing in the first place], and you could get Manhattan express service flowing through there, too. Of course, doing this would require truckloads of money and probably shutting down the line entirely for cnstruction, so I'm not really holding my breath. But THAT's one of my pipedreams. G to Church can be made a reality.
I'm not sure I like your idea either, I'm afraid. The main advantage of extending the G to Church is access to the BMT transfer at 4th Avenue. If the G runs express, then it bypasses the BMT transfer, so why bother?
While in once sense I agree with you, the Rutgers St tunnels, as currently configured, have excess capacity. The only reasons there is currently no Culver express service are a lack of rolling stock and the poor condition of the Bergen St interlocking and lower level. Work at Bergen St is currently prceeding.
What sort of authority do you have this on? Everyone seems to believe this will happen, but the MTA is unpredictable like that.
I was half wrong about the Airtrain fare but I did not ask the correct question.
The 9St 4Av station does need work: elevators mainly. The stairs going up from the subway to the el invites a heart attack. This neighborhood is somewhat on the low-rent side, so property acquisition would not be too expensive.
Were this connection easier, it would become a very viable option for getting from the 4Av system to an 8Av train at Jay St.
Don't expect epress service Via Bergen lower unless ridership zooms.
What you can expect is that 8th Ave trains will turn at Bergen lower when the service is interupted.
BTW, it's time to restore 450' G train consists. Jamaica got a major portion of CI's last remaining R32's. Cars should be available.
Everyone assumes those extra cars are coming to their line.
Well truth is that they were so short of cars most lines did not have gap trains, now they all do. That ate up most of the 143 cars freed up.
No, I'm not expecting them on the 1.
The other platform, not reconstructing a yard lead.
That's simple, The "Queens Blvd" G (title of thread) is rerouted through to 6th Ave in Manhattan and is brought to Broadway Lafayette where it is switched to Essex St. It is then sent down the Broadway El to Broadway Junction where it is switched to the Canarsie line to Atlan.....Oh, I'm sorry you mean how did the thread drift : )
:0)
A subtalker was at their meeting last year and when asked they said only in response to a major increase in ridership. Infact they expect to lose 3600 r/t passengers a day to the Q/D once the bridge reopens.
When the V extension was published in the paper, the TA said they were wrong.
In the full Manhattan Bridge document nothing was said about changing the F in immediate future. Maybe when Sunnyside yard is finished but do not expect anything before 2007 and even then an extension might not bring the express service you desire.
>Money, cars and infrastucture limits are the only current obstacles
You forgot necessity.
Do an archive search on nydailynews.com. The story was never retracted.
I also stated the change wasn't imminent. This was a long term goal.
The best, indeed only way to restore Hillside Express service is to have both the (R) and (V) continue all the way to 179th. This doesn't have to be all times. They can still terminate at Continental on "off-hours." Say the (F) can be local beyond Continental roughly the same hours the (E).
As for restoring the Queens Blvd (G) on weekdays, I'm afraid it can't be done without sacrificing a lot of (R) and (V) service, and it just ain't worth it. The needs of the many over the needs of the few.
:-) Andrew
Or a World's-Fair-esque branch for the local to run up. How about alongside / in the median of the Van Wyck Expressway, with stations at Jewel Av, Booth Memorial Av, then a loop to terminate at Shea Stadium on the 7.
You mean like terminating the G at Smith&9th Sts and having the F continue to Coney Island?
Another place this is currently done is at 111th St on the Flushing Line during the morning rush hour in the revers direction. 7 tph relay between 111th and Willets Pt while another 21 tph continute to Main St.
#3 West End Jeff
I say "Farewell to the Redbirds".
We met Jeff while going to stake out the ready yard at corona. There were 8 7-62 sets and a single 7-Bird set. First out was a 7-62 which was oddly enough pioloted by a SUBTALKER who stopped his movement, opened the window and greeted us. He refused to ID himself, but he claimed to work w/ two other Subtalkers in recent weeks (see Pigs for details, I forgot). Next out was the 7-Bird so after photoing it we ran back inside fare control and made the error of waiting to see if it went to Flushing. After assertaining it was not we missed an inbound 7-62 and caught the third. We got off at Woodside not wanting to miss the bird comming back and waited for about 15 min, pointing out all the "year" cars that were passing. After what seemed line an etermity the only 7-Bird in service rounded the bend on the Express track.
Pigs called Chapter 11 from the train, but he had to leave early so we lost our cell phone link and never found Chapter 11. Jeff and I rode into Flushing express and then all the way to TSQ local. While passing the Crona lead we saw a second redbird set entering service, but we didn't run into it again. At TSQ I managed to grab several hunks of Redbird Rust. I caught my Amtrak train by a cool 15 minutes.
In the morning, while waiting for pigs, I took a side trip to Astoria, but my W train ran into service disruptions both out and back, which proved to be quite annoying.
As always Photos will be forthcomming.
BTW, ride those Redbirds while you can, there are only 2-4 trainsets left. To catch them in operation you need to go to the Corona walkway at Shea Stad Sta and wait till opne leaves the yard. At that point catch the next inbound train and wait for the bird at GCT.
#3 West End Jeff
I say "Farewell to the Redbirds".
#3 West End Jeff
FAREWELL TO THE REDBIRDS.
The official meeting locations and times are as follows:
8:30 at the transit museum shop entrance in GCT(NOT THE BROOKLYN SITE!!!)
8:35 at the round information kiosk with the clock on top in the center of GCT
We will begin walking to the train at 8:40 sharp! The train will leave at 8:53AM.
ALL WHO ARE GOING AND WOULD LIKE TO MEET UP AT GCT MUST REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. I will be making a roster, but please remember, WE LEAVE FOR THE TRAIN AT 8:40, no later, no earlier.
THE CP POINTS ARE AS FOLLOWS.
CP1 CP3 AT 97TH STREET
CP4 IS THE MOVABLE BRIDGE AFTER 125TH
CP5 IS THE BIG JUNCTION SEPERATING THE HUDSON FROM HARLEM AND NEW HAVEN
CP6 is first CP on hudson
then u have HIGHBRIDGE for employees only(WHICH DOES NOT INCLUDE YOU!!)
CP7
THEN CP8 BEFORE MARBLE HILL
CP10 IS THE CURVE RESTRICITED TO 35
CP11 IS BEFORE SPUTEN DUYVIL
THEN U HAVE CP12 WHICH IS AMTRAK
THEN AFTER GREYSTONE IS CP19
THEN U HAVE CP25 BEFORE TARRYTOWN AFTER IRVINGTON
THEN U HAVE CP26 BETWEEN TARRYTOWN AND PHILLIPSE MANOR
THEN U HAVE CP33 BETWEEN OSSINING ONCE U CROSS CROTON RIVER AND THEN U HAVE CROTON HARMON!
ALSO YES I CAN OPERATE A TRAIN AND AM FULLY READY AND CAPABLE TO DO SO WHICH U PROBABLY ARENT.
I DONT KNOW ALL FRA RULES, BUT I KNOW THE SIGNALS AND BASIC THINGS NEEDED TO RUN A TRAIN. THE ONLY TRAINS U PROBABLY RUN IS HO SCALE LIONEL BUDDY.
SO WHEN U CAN PRODUCE A METRO NORTH ID AND GO TELL KEVIN GAINES A METRO NORTH TRAINMASTER I AM NOT QUALIFIED, SHUT UP!!!!
I HAVE HAD ENGINEERS, CONDUCTORS AND TRAINMASTERS, ROAD FOREMAN AND A TRAIN DISPATCHER TELL ME IM ALREADY QUALIFIED. ALSO I HAVE DISPATCHED TRAINS IN NJ TRANSIT AND AMTRAK, NEWARK PENN WAS UNDER MY CONTROL. SO HOW BOUT U KEEP OUT OF THIS!
Jaap van Dorp
Locomotive Engineer since 1989
Car foreman for a few years before that.
Electrician in Harmon Dieselshop/North White Plains/Brewster.
former Chief Elecrical Officer Holland America Cruises.
etc etc.
ur fellow MNR worker
ima stick to my machines from now on LOL.
Incognito
The White Plains Kid
Robert
RAIL TAPES TAPE VE-30 $33.00 VIDEO TAPE 60 minutes long
R9'on the BMT
1) Do R62A's have a railfan window or is the motorman being generous and letting those people see through?
Thus commandeth Sir Mike de Nouveaux Ceaserea*
*Feel Free to Correct Pigs.
(City Hall would be II)
Regards,
Jimmy :)
I do not know the car numbers however.
It seems to me to be a crying shame that passengers in the evening hours need to wait so long for a train on what was designed to be a mighty 4-track trunk line.
If we were to talk about pipedreams, one thing I'd love to see is the SAS hooked up to the Fulton St lines. Perhaps the old HH lines at Hoyt-Schermerhorn could be rerouted to dive under the Transit Museum, and under the East River. And as long as we're spending billions, we could bury the Fulton St end of the Franklin St shuttle and hook it into the Fulton St local tracks. This opens the possibility of trains running down the SAS, onto Fulton St, then down Franklin St and onto the Brighton Express tracks, thus utilizing a LOT of currently excess capacity, and providing gobs of service. The obvious downside is that Fulton St East of Franklin would still be sadly underserved.
Does anyone have any other ideas for improving service on some of the MTA's sadly underused trackage?
...
It seems to me to be a crying shame that passengers in the evening hours need to wait so long for a train on what was designed to be a mighty 4-track trunk line.
Apples and oranges.
The fact that the Cranbery Tunnel can only handle 30 tph (and is currently running 23) is not related to the fact that there are long waits for trains in the evening hours. The latter is probably due to 3 factors: (a) mediocre train management resulting in uneven train spacing, (b) the current demand doesn't fill up more trains, and (c) NYCT doesn't want to spend the money to run underutilized trains.
The fact that the Cranbery Tunnel can only handle 30 tph (and is currently running 23) is not related to the fact that there are long waits for trains in the evening hours. The latter is probably due to 3 factors: (a) mediocre train management resulting in uneven train spacing, (b) the current demand doesn't fill up more trains, and (c) NYCT doesn't want to spend the money to run underutilized trains.
I think its a combination of B and C. I was telling someone I know that the Fulton Line sucks. On my way over, I was saying that Id rather take one train: the J and transfer to a bus thats one block away from them, then Transfering to the A/C at broadway junction, only to wait forever for a train to come, then having to take a bus up, espeically going Manhattan bound in the evening.
THey were like "its pretty often". And I simply said "NO, stand at Roosevelt Ave on the Queens Blvd Line during rush hours, and you will see trains pass by every minute!" (In laymans terms, since they are not railfains) E, F ,E, F, E, etc. Along with the R, R, V, R with the G being mixed in after 8pm. Waiting 10 minutes or so for a train isn't often.
However, at 4:30 in the afternoon, I have to wait as much as 8 to 10 minutes at Broadway Junction for an A train...rush hour service should be 4 - 5 minutes.
In addition, at 10 PM, each and every A train coming into Jay St. is crowded on its current 10 minute headway with no seats available. That is a fact!
According to the A line schedule Far Rockaway or Lefferts Blvd, Queens, and 59 Street, Manhattan.
I usually can't get a seat on the A at 1am if I get on south of 42nd, and have to stand until Utica or Easy NY.
If you're on a northbound train headed to CTL, you'll often wait up to 10 minutes to just get into the station at that time.
New SNCF trains
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10132003.shtml#French
AFAIK, those World's Fair connection signs were a one-shot to attract Fair business, and didn't carry any other destination.
I still want that sign. Where is it? I got the $4.00.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Peace,
ANDEE
This pic was taken at the same time This Pic was taken.
These 2 were probably the best ones, but they are average at best:
You guys are NUTS.
That first picture is a 6 out of 10 at best. Overexposure city. The lighting also makes the picture a bit hazy or fuzzy.
The 2nd one; I couldn't get the lighting right and compensated by shifting the hue to the green side a bit. It looks terrible, look at the sky.
Actually, very ingenious!
--Mark
NJT Press Release
http://www.njtransit.com/ne_pressrelease.jsp?PRESS_RELEASE_ID=707
It also says that it built 62 cars for Washington Metrorail. Were these rebuilds or new cars? Was this in association with CAF or was this a rebuild of some of the Rohr cars?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
There may be more, that is all I recall at this time.
Red is really getting the short end of the stick. Orange gets the Dulles extension, Blue gets Largo, and Green just got Branch Avenue, so they all need extra equipment. Yellow gets new equipment because it shares with Green/Blue. Red gets a pie on the tracks and Silver Spring Transit Center (are they still serious about that?)
Then again, Red WAS the first line, and the deepest at points (Wheaton, Dupont Circle, Forest Glen, and I've heard Bethesda), and doesn't actually go to the VA side.
Red Line has the best service in the system in my opinion. It doesn't share trackage with any other line so it comes twice as often. Also, Chris Der (New Look Terrapin) saw CAF cars on the Red Line and I heard them in the background of a WTOP report made on the Red Line so they seem to be out there. The question is where?
The line that seems to be treated the worst is Green, but its riders are under the impression since they are lower class and minorities, WMATA doesn't care for them the same way they care for the Red Line passengers.
The phenomena you are experiencing as to air pressure has more to do with the vent/fan shaft air plentums and dampers in the shafts then the way the tunnels were constructed. All of the vent/fan shaft on WMATA have automatic and or remotely controllable dampers in the shafts to control the flow of air up and down the shafts. As far as I know there is no default setting of the for the dampers or the fans. Some of the automatic controls will kick in when certain temperatures and humidity levels are reached. It May be that WMATA has yet to figure out the optimum dampers and fan configuration to lessen the pressure changes between shafts for a given temperatures and humidity level.
John
Isn't a lot of that true? I'm not bashing WMATA, I'm just saying that socially they simply don't have as much clout as the Red Line riders. Green Line was the last one to be constructed, and seemingly to be the one that was constructed on the cheap...
AEM7
Not so. The original plan for the Southern Green Line F Route in the revised 1972 ARS was to have the terminal station at Branch Avenue. However the Branch Avenue station was to be built at a point near the bottom of the hill between Auth Road and Saint Barnabas Road on the east side of Branch Avenue.
Read the gory details about the changes and lawsuits that took place during the planning stages in Ron Deiter’s book "The Story Of Metro"
John
The allegations of favoritism, or racism or "on the cheap" are false. There is no factual basis for them whatsoever.
I do agree that the racism/favoritism claims are false.
But they were, in fact resolved. In addition, Metrorail opened the outer line segments to service even as the crews were working to blast their way through the city's center. It was very difficult work and took a long time - but it was done.
WMATA has since done a better job of communication - look at their websites which talk about the New York Av station and the Blue Line extension to Largo Town Center.
Patrons can plan their trips on all these rail and bus lines by accessing the Metro Trip Planner on MTA's Internet web site at www.mta.net. Riders also can find carpools and vanpools near their homes or workplaces by clicking on the "Ridesharing" link on MTA's Internet home page or by going directly to www.ridesmatch.info.
In addition, transit riders may dial 1-800-COMMUTE (800-266-6883) for information on transit services, ridesharing, Metrolink or bike commuting.
Metro Bus and Metro Rail passengers who have purchased monthly, semi-monthly or weekly passes for October should retain those passes until the strike has ended. MTA will announce at a later date a plan to credit passholders for the days on which bus and rail service was not available.
Local services available to transit riders include:
Antelope Valley Transit Authority,
Burbank Local Transit,
Carson Circuit,
Cerritos on Wheels,
Culver City Transit,
LADOT/Dash,
DowneyLINK,
El Monte Transportation Services,
Foothill Transit,
Gardena Municipal Bus Lines,
Glendale Beeline,
Long Beach Transit,
Montebello Bus Lines,
Norwalk Transit System,
Pasadena Area Rapid Transit System,
Santa Clarita Transit,
Santa Monica Big Blue Bus and Torrance Transit.
MTA contractors will operate the following bus lines:
Line 96 (LA-Burbank-Sherman Oaks);
Line 125 (Rosecrans Avenue);
Line 128 (Alondra Boulevard) Line 130 (Artesia Boulevard);
Line 167 (Plummer Street-Coldwater Canyon Avenue);
Line 177 (Glendale - La Canada - Pasadena - Monrovia - Duarte);
Line 205 (Willowbrook - Harbor City - San Pedro);
Line 214 (Broadway - Main Street Loop);
Line 225 (Aviation Boulevard - Palos Verdes Peninsula);
Line 226 (Palos Verdes Drive West);
Line 232 (Pacific Coast Highway);
Line 254 (Willowbrook - Huntington Park - Lorena Street);
Line 256 (Eastern Avenue - Avenue 64 - North Hill Avenue);
Line 266 (Lakewood - Rosemead Boulevards);
Line 270 (Monrovia - El Monte - Norwalk);
Line 218 (West Hollywood - Studio City via Laurel Canyon Boulevard);
Line 603 (Rampart - Hoover - Colorado Boulevard Shuttle);
Line 605 (Grande Vista Street - USC Hospital Shuttle);
Line 625 (Aviation Metro Green Line Station Shuttle);
Line 888 (Metro Red Line emulator);
Line 626 (Mariposa - Green Line Shuttle);
Line 646 (TBD);
Line 58 (Union Station - Alameda Street - Washington Boulevard - Metro Blue Line Station).
There is one good thing though: Municipal operators wait for this strike to be over, then offer the same package to their drivers and mechanics.
One Santa Monica Municipal Bus Lines driver told me, "Why don't we ever strike? Because we always get everything we want. We just wait for the RTD guys to finish their strike."
Reason
To
Drive
The choices are Brighton, West End, Sea Beach--I didn't include Culver because you can't get there directly from DeKalb any more.
I think he forgot a "Tiresome of Academics."
The Question is based on distance, not speed
Take Flatbush Ave Ext. south to 3rd Ave (across from BAM), bear right into 3rd Ave, 3 blocks down or so, make a left on Atlantic. Go under BQE overpass and make a left (you have to do this), enter BQE (I278) at left side after making left turn. Take BQE into Gowanus Expwy. At Belt Pkwy split, stay left on Gowanus. Get off at last exit (92nd st) and make a left at corner. Go on 92nd st to 5th Ave, make left. 5th Ave merges with 4th Ave and becomes the latter to Belt Pkwy entrance. Hop on Belt to exit 7S (Ocean Parkway) and take Ocean Parkway which becomes Surf Ave after passing under Brighton Line. Take Surf about 1/2 mile to Stillwell.
BINGO!!!
Then right on 92nd st, not left (looking at map the wrong way.)
Note: I used DeKalb Avenue because it is the last location where all the three lines intersect before Stillwell Avenue, so that people wouldn't be diverted by side issues like Bridge/Tunnel or 6 Ave/Broadway.
The first figure is miles and tenths FROM DEKALB. The (figure in parentheses) is chaining (x100') from 57/7th (Chaining Zero) to center of Stillwell platform, assuming 600' platform.
West End Line -- 9.19 mi.(792+37)
Brighton Line --9.42 mi. (805+24)
Sea Beach Line -- 9.68 mi. (818+50)
If BMT Culver were still with us, it would have been third of four at 9.55 mi.
The slight discrepancy in the Brighton vs. other figures (less than 100 feet) is probably due to the fact that the mileage and chaining calculations were made at different times and most likely different methods.
The Brighton would have won handily if the question were which line reached the shoreline first--it's 1.14 miles from Brighton to Stillwell.
And Fred--don't be disappointed--the Sea Beach may be the longest, but when it hosted the Coney Island Express, it was the fastest.
Note: I used DeKalb Avenue because it is the last location where all the three lines intersect before Stillwell Avenue, so that people wouldn't be diverted by side issues like Bridge/Tunnel or 6 Ave/Broadway.
The first figure is miles and tenths FROM DEKALB. The (figure in parentheses) is chaining (x100') from 57/7th (Chaining Zero) to center of Stillwell platform, assuming 600' platform.
West End Line -- 9.19 mi.(792+37)
Brighton Line --9.42 mi. (805+24)
Sea Beach Line -- 9.68 mi. (818+50)
If BMT Culver were still with us, it would have been third of four at 9.55 mi.
The slight discrepancy in the Brighton vs. other figures (less than 100 feet) is probably due to the fact that the mileage and chaining calculations were made at different times and most likely different methods.
The Brighton would have won handily if the question were which line reached the shoreline first--it's 1.14 miles from Brighton to Stillwell.
And Fred--don't be disappointed--the Sea Beach may be the longest, but when it hosted the Coney Island Express, it was the fastest.
If the els were still there, which would be shorter: Sands St to CI via Myrtle, 5th and West End or via Fulton, Franklin and Brighton?
If Bath Junction still existed, would the Sea Beach Line fare any better (ie via West End North of 62/NUA)?
Brighton and West End didn't share a terminal at the time that each had a service from Park Row to Coney. Still, it would have to be via West End was shorter, since the Brighton had the added jog to the east to get to Franklin/Fulton, vs. the direct route it now has under Flatbush Avenue.
If Bath Junction still existed, would the Sea Beach Line fare any better (ie via West End North of 62/NUA)?
Sea Beach would have to do better, since 9th & New Utrecht Avenues is a more direct route than continuing on 4th Avenue to 59th Street before headed to Coney.
That would be perhaps one million subway rides, with 500,000 each way. My guess is that one million is a significant chunk of the average weekend subway ridership right now. To service those additional one million customers, the subway didn't need any more token clerk, MOW personnel, tower operators, car maintainers, or subway cars. Just some train operators and conductors on some additional trains, and some additional cleaners in the terminal. Sounds like a profitable market to me.
I nothing else, this might justify the re-creation of the special Coney Island Expresses on weekends when the new Stillwell Terminal opens next year. If Coney Island, and transit to Coney Island, become more popular, that's more money for the transit system.
Well, back in the day, Coney Island had much more as far as swimming pools, amusements and food establishments go. A Coney Island Express won't bring in one million people. There has to be more there to draw the crowds back again.
Bill "Newkirk"
It is slow slide toward Palisades Park and Rockaway Park.
That's right, gotta keep up with the times. How about discos and night clubs in Coney Island. It is the one thing no other part of the city wants, and the proposed new noise regulations will constrain them elsewhere. And, if you get a little toasted, you won't be driving home.
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Hmm, its a good thing that at least the timetable times will be accurate, its a bad thing that they will be setting their preformance back to pre-pre-pre-ACELA days. Maybe the recent Secaucas Connection, North River Tube Rehabilitation, Morrisville Connection and Pennsylvania Tie Installation are driving down reliability so that the rollbacks will be temporary. Maybe all of Amtrak's recent tower closures are to blame. I can only hope about that last one.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10132003.shtml#Tell
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Hmm, I would be very weary about a Jet Train that's probably based on snowmobile technology.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10132003.shtml#Sales
Bombardier’s JetTrain is unable to achieve the same speeds as European trains, the Miami Herald reported the next day, because it must be heavier in order to meet American safety regulations, said Daniel Hubert, the JetTrain’s chief engineer.
“Our train has to be able to take 2.1 million pounds of force, which is like a train hitting an 80-ton trailer at 68 miles per hour,” Hubert said.
No trailers, or anything else, will cross Florida’s high-speed tracks, which will be dedicated to high-speed use.
I understand they're trying to be safe and all that, but is this too much??
But this part has me uneasy. One hour from orlando to miami, it takes five hours to drive, and close to that by plane going door to door. Even if it costs more to do for start up, that would still increase it's attractiveness and viability. 3 hours may only capture a percentage off the fly and drive market, and who knows about tourists.
"Global Rail Consortium is offering its KTXR train, a fourth-generation TGV electric train manufactured in Korea with a top speed of 285 mph.
“From Tampa to Orlando, it would go 165 miles per hour,” said Katherine Beck, a partner in the Global Rail. The JetTrain “will only go 120-125 miles per hour on that route” she said. The Tampa-Orlando route is curvy, which limits the top speed of the trains, “but from Orlando to Miami, the train would be able to run flat out at 286 mph, taking only one hour, fifteen minutes versus three hours for the JetTrain,” Beck said."
No, just because there are no grade crossings does not mean you no longer have to worry about collissions. Ignoring the while damger posed by other trains and rolling stock, the RoW can be compromised by trees, rocks, collapsed structures and vehicles that enter the RoW without the aid of a grade crossing. In the UK a Land Rover flipped onto the RoW where it was hit. The control car on the front of the train begam to wobble due to its light-weight and as a result derailed. A freight train on the opposite track slammed into the derailed train and killed a bunch of passengers. Had the control car been heavier it would have ploughed right through the SUV without a second thought.
Selby incident: Freight train operator killed (secondman survived), three GNER railwaymen killed, ten passengers killed.
Note that the freight locomotive was built by GM.
Incidentally -- even American cab cars are not constructed to the same standards as locomotives.
That does not mean it was FRA compliant. GM will happily build to the host country's requirement, esp. if that means GM doesn't spend as much money on it.
"Incidentally -- even American cab cars are not constructed to the same standards as locomotives."
That's true. But our coaches are stiffer than Eueopean ones.
Take an MU for example. LIRR's Budd M-1 or M-3, or a Bopmbadier M-7, would not have automatically derailed on hitting the SUV. Nothing is 100%, of course, but the American MU's chances of staying on the rails is higher than that of European coaches.
Actually, in that particular case, GM constructed to its own QA standards. GM did not have a cab design that did not follow the crew-protection philosophy. The accident locomotive's cab remained intact -- structural beams bent but not destroyed. The accident cab car did not remain intact, tossing its contents (i.e. the crew) outside.
AEM7
Heard about the time a deer charged an EMU in Australia? Deer charged; EMU had cab car front (and transformer car center); cab car lifted; cab car derailed; derailed cab car careered off into the embankment; transformer car hit pole; pole peeled bodyside away; oops.
AEM7
Wildlife activists preserved its stalk-thing and put it on a monument, calling it a myrtyr in the quest of better animail rights around railroad rights of way.
That's the funniest thing I've heard all day.
:0)
BTW, whenever you meet some sort of NIMBY who is against re-introducing natural predators to their area, remind them that Deer kill more humans in this country (some 400 anually) than most large predators combined. The lack of proper predation in their area is more dangerous than the predators themselves.
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Oooo, booo hooo, the Canadians and Europeans are loosing jobs. Awww, wah wah.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10132003.shtml#Bombardier
Why don't you post the ones I missed?
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Damit, I wanted to go to Chicago again. Looks like its back to trolling the rail sales.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10132003.shtml#Amtrak
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Those new renassance coaches are nice, I can see where the $CDN went.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10132003.shtml#Coaches
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::Jaw Drops:: WHAT!! What about some investment in our passenger rail system numbnuts. As long as congresspersons treat the government as a money buffet instead of a forum for solving national problems we're all sunk. I'd support an ammentment preventing congresspersons allocating any special funding for projects based solely in their own district.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10132003.shtml#House
What about some investment in our passenger rail system numbnuts. As long as congresspersons treat the government as a money buffet instead of a forum for solving national problems we're all sunk. I'd support an ammentment preventing congresspersons allocating any special funding for projects based solely in their own district
I agree with your sentiment, but the slicksters in the House sidestepped your argument. From the same article: “The resolution carried no federal dollars with it because the hall of fame is being privately funded.”
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And of course the most pressing question...will there be a railfan view and will they buy ::shudders:: Genesis units.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10132003.shtml#32
I hope Nashville's new line is a success.
Mark
Did I read 2 hr trip? They should definately install new bathrooms. And why aren't they putting in bathrooms at stations other than the riverside one?
Also, if I'm going to fan fair, can I use this RR to get to any of the events?
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Any Bostonites have any opinions or have links to maps of the area?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10132003.shtml#MBTA
BTW, is the Worchester/Framingham line one track with freight or is MBTA just stupid (or underfunded)?
Wellessey is full of stupid, mooing, lesbien cows. Those people don't even know how to walk, let alone ride a commuter rail.
Its double track Rule 261 with freight.
Single track between Worcester and Albany for much of the way, but I am sure you know that better than I do. You're the one with the employee timetable. Did you remember to mail me a copy?
AEM7
Unable to score with Wellesley women? :-P
No, fed up with Wellessley wemen hanging out in front of my girlfriends dorm and smoking, polluting the air, talking loudly, and bringing in skanky males from Senior Haus while waiting for the shuttle bus.
AEM7
I suppose that every college exports its worst, and I am sure not all Wellessley wemen are as bad as the samples that we are regularly able to examine in front of my girlfriends dorm. I think my main issue with Wellessley is that they publish this stoooopid thing called 'Counterpoint', and someone recently did a hack called 'Counterjoint' implying that they all smoke hash and all have bras that hang dry... I have issues with their reputation, especially the one that suggests they are somewhat intellectual, because, well, all the ones I'd met were whining cows that do not know how to do analysis.
AEM7
Well what were you expecting for school that houses those who couldn't get into Ivy League schools, but wanted an "elite" small liberal arts college? :-P
BTW, I really shouldn't comment on the women at Wellesley, as I've only met two so far. When I go in November, I'll learn how an all-girl college really operates...
Hillary is a Wellsley graduate ...
What does the "bras that hang dry" comment mean?
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW, my friend at Wellesley tolerates my railfanning, but loves hanging up my photos and showing them off to her friends. :-P
Is she a Mystical Chix?
AEM7
IIRC, I think her mystical chix friend prefers "dark chocolate" like myself...:-D
Unable to score with Wellesley women? :-P
I guess I must have put it somewhere -- I'll look at home. AEM7
**********************************************************************
This ain't a good year for roundhouses.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df10132003.shtml#Ex-B
This time we deal with dating and the railroad life.
As you have very likely surmised in my little commentaries here,
railroading isn’t just a job, it is a lifestyle. One must learn to wriggle
in a little life around a career on the railroad. And with the railroad
gods always in tune to what you are attempting to accomplish away from the
property, this can be at best, extremely difficult. The prospect of having
a life can itself can be a challenge, but trying to actually pull of such a
feat can almost be undaunting. It never fails; you could be five times out
that means there are four people ahead of you on the board) with nothing
showing just before dinner time on Saturday night. As soon as you make
plans and attempt to follow through with them, the phone rings or the pager
goes off. You just can't beat the railroad gods; they are all powerful and
pretty much all knowing. Oh sure, they throw you the occasional bone here
and there, but you pay dearly for those bones down the road.
Being young, single and active, wanting to consume a drink or two or three
or four here and there combined with trying to live life on the extra board
generally does not blend together smoothly when trying to start or preserve
a relationship.
“Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life son.”
Way back in 1978 when I first embarked on this journey of railroading, I
was young (turned 22 while making my student trips), single (I didn't
follow the path that several close friends took in getting married before
the ink was dry on their high school diplomas), active in that I played (or
attempted to anyway) some ball and hockey and also tried to have the same
kind of fun my single friends were having; all while being near the bottom
on the seniority list. And being that I was single I was also in active
pursuit of the lovely young dollies of the fairer sex. Today we will study
my attempts at making a dating life work despite the efforts of the
railroad gods.
One of the items I often touch upon with younger people who ask me about
getting hired onto the railroad is the havoc the extra board can and will
bring when you are single and trying to date. Some of them don't seem to
believe me when I tell them that inevitably either as soon as you walk out
the door to pick up your date or walk into the restaurant or cinema with
her, your phone will ring or your pager will go off. That is the way of the
railroad world. I'd like to have a crisp new $20 bill (tax free of course)
for every time this event played out during the course of my career, even
after getting married and trying to spend an evening out with the beautiful
bride. With all those pages and calls to work, I could probably be enjoying
the lifestyles of the rich and famous.
About four years ago, I worked with a new hire on a Friday night. He was
upset that he was finally going to get the chance to go out with some dolly
that he had been trying to woo for quite some time. The date was supposed
to take place that very evening. Instead though, the railroad called him to
work disrupting his plans. I smiled and told him, “Get used to it.” I don't
believe he was too pleased with my lack of sympathy for him. He has since
left the employ of the rail industry.
Before we get into the meat and potatoes of today’s topic I should remind
you all that my experiences with life on call and dating took place way
back in the dark ages. There were no cell phones back then and pagers were
nowhere near as predominate as they are now, and those that were available
certainly weren't as advanced as they are today. Back then you had pagers
with one or two tones only, no messaging or anything available with them.
And in those days it seemed like mostly doctors and high powered people had
pagers. So when that pager went off in a restaurant or movie house, people
likely surmised that I was somebody of importantance. I played up to that
after a time too, but more on that later.
There was no such thing as the cell phone either. While there were car
phones, they were captive to your automobile and not the tiny little
portable items much of the population carries with the today. I always had
to make certain I was within a short distance of a pay phone and always had
to carry change for it. This could make things really tricky when stepping
out for the evening or even the day.
When I first began on the railroad, I was seeing some young dolly. We had
been involved in what was working out to be an on and off again sort of
romance, seemingly more off than on. Or perhaps maybe it was just that I
was a little off. After the job on the railroad came along, the
relationship actually got a little better. Maybe she thought there was more
stability in railroading and perhaps a more secure financial future.
Stability? Security?
This young dolly didn't seem to mind my life on the extra board, at least
at first anyway. Not once did she ever complain when the Caller summoned me
to work by calling her house to reach me. One of the important issues
explained to us as brand new Trainmen was “Be sure the Caller knows how to
get a hold of you.” So I would let them know I was going to be at her house
and gave them her phone number. For a time, her phone number was listed
next to my name as one of the regular numbers to be used in the attempt to
reach me. Of course after we stopped seeing each other for the umpteenth
time, it probably didn't play too well when one of the callers attempted to
reach me there a couple of times.
Come to think of it, this dolly never once complained, at least to my face
anyway, about my getting called to work. We had dates interrupted while in
progress and others cancelled before they began as either the phone would
ring before I walked out the door or the pager went off while I was en
route to pick her up. Although I could hear just a trace of displeasure in
her voice when I called to tell her I was not going to make it now as I had
to work. I could also see it in her eyes if we were out and that pager
began to cackle its single note chorus.
For all that she put up with during the times we dated; somehow she didn't
become the beautiful bride. I had her pretty well conditioned as to how the
railroad life worked. Ironically though, to this day we are still good
friends.
There were many women I dated just once or twice owing to the railroad.
Many of them could not accept the fact that I lived my life on call much of
the time. One broken or interrupted date and I was quickly history. More
than once I was accused to standing them up to go out with somebody else.
Well I guess they were sort of right; I was going out with a Conductor and
a couple of Brakemen but it was to move freight.
I had to break the date with one dolly on what was supposed to be our first
date. I was out the door and heading her way when the pager went off. I was
three times out with one vacancy showing for nights. I thought I was home
free to at least the morning. Well, they decided to run an “out of bracket”
extra job. This would be a yard job called outside of the designated call
brackets. Nobody, including me was expecting this to occur. The first out
guy missed a call. Then the second out guy missed as well. Like me, they
were certainly not expecting that phone to ring for a job to go to work at
8:15 in the evening.
That pager went off when I was about half way to her house. ARGH!!!!! So I
stopped at a pay phone and checked in. I got the news and asked what
happened to everybody ahead of me and was told of the missed calls. I tried
to mark off on call, but they wouldn't let. I was told "You will report."
“Tag; you're it!”
I then called the dolly and she took the news like a trooper. She proceeded
to call me all sorts of names for breaking the date. She also accused me of
standing her up for some other dolly. I didn't have a great deal of time to
argue or defend myself over the issue as I had to head back home and get
ready for work instead of having fun. When I called her the next day to try
to explain life on the railroad, she called me more names, even worse than
the ones from the night before and then told me to never call her again.
“I think she’s warming up to me.”
I wasn't always on the extra board though. There were times I would mark up
to a regular assignment. This gave me a life as I had a scheduled time to
report to work and also regular days off. Of course being on the low end of
the seniority ladder, I was also subject to getting bumped. It almost
seemed inevitable that when I had some big doings planned for one or both
of my days off, I'd get bumped. Try to explain this to somebody outside of
the industry.
Being a night owl by nature, I tended to mark to afternoon and evening jobs
frequently. There were times when I could hold a day job but often took the
post mortem portion of the day. I am not now, nor have I ever been a
morning person. It is likely I never will be either.
I managed to hook up with one dolly that worked afternoons. She was a nurse
at a hospital and was accustomed to strange hours and lousy days off. I was
working a steady diet of afternoons and usually got off work before her. I
also had Tuesday and Wednesdays off. Being that I like to cook,
periodically I would make a big fancy meal and call her at work to invite
her over for “supper” when she got off.
We had both rotated our lives around to coincide with the hours we worked.
The late night was our evening. We could go out after she got home from
work and cleaned up and often did. There were plenty of late night things
to do and places to go. It was not unusual for us to be up and out until 3
or 4 in the morning. Being that neither one of us had to get up early in
the morning, this was not a problem. I could sleep until noon and be up in
time to do stuff around the apartment, run errands, go shopping and get to
work.
"He will sleep 'til noon but before it's dark, he'll have every picnic
basket that's in Jellystone Park."
This dolly was even able to deal with the extra board when the times came
that I was back on it. However, issues came up that we (well, more so me)
could not overcome and before you know it; I was back on the prowl again.
There was a situation that arose once and only once. I was out with some
dolly at the cinema one Saturday night. It was our first date and I had
clearly, or so I thought, explained the extra board thing to her and how
there was the distinct possibility that I could be called to work while we
were out. She claimed she understood and I thought that was that.
The evening went along quite nicely and the pager remained silent. Cool!
Later in the evening we headed over to my place. When we walked in I
noticed the light on my answering machine blinking furiously. The more it
blinked, the more messages I had. So I played them back. There must've been
900 calls from the Caller trying to get me to answer the phone. This was
back in the good old days before the phone lines at the Caller’s offices
were recorded. It’s a good thing too; this guy was pretty steamed that I
was not responding to the phone or the pager. The pager! Why didn't the
pager go off? I looked down at it and noticed it was turned off. WHAT? I
know I turned it on before I left the house. I always had to acknowledge
the thing whenever I turned it on or it would just keep beeping.
So I asked the dolly if she knew anything about it. She admitted that she
reached down and turned it off while she was getting a little amorous in
the movie house. She explained that she was having so much fun that she
didn't want to take the chance of me getting called to work and having the
evening cut short. Her admission brought the evening and the relationship
to a screeching halt.
Being that my missed calls were very far and few between, I was not in any
trouble other than getting a lecture about my responsibility to protect the
extra board. After this episode, I made certain that nobody ever turned off
my pager again, except me.
During my barnstorming days, also frequently referred to as my shady and
turbulent past, I even dated several railroaders’ daughters. In one
particular case the guy fixed me up with his daughter albeit in a very left
handed sort of way. I was firing for this guy and he was telling me all
about his family. Saw the pictures and everything. The one daughter was
divorced, had a child and was living back at home.
Anyway, this guy invites me over to his house after work one evening for a
drink to christen the new bar he had built in his family room. After going
home and getting all cleaned up, I headed out to his place which was out in
the country some eighteen or so miles south of me. When I got to his house
and knocked on the door, the daughter that was formerly married answers the
door. She was kind of dolled up and I complimented her on how nice she
looked. I was welcomed in and went to see the bar and meet the rest of the
family.
Her dad, my Engineer, decided that we kids needed to run into town to
procure some beer as he had none in the house. So he gives me some cash and
tells the daughter and I to run into town to pick up some for him. We do so
and once in my car and heading for town immediately discuss the not too
discreet plan her father has undertaken. She even commented that there were
probably two or three cases of beer in the house right now. His little
scheme worked though as we hit it off quite well and wound up dating for
months.
This dolly had no issues with the railroad lifestyle as she had grown up
with it. She was well versed in the idiosyncrasies of the extra board and
life on call. My having to break a date to go to work or end a date early
never seemed to upset her at all.
However, like so many other relationships prior, this one ran its course
and I broke it off. She was not too pleased, but her dad was furious. You'd
thought I had kidnapped the Lindbergh baby or something he was so upset
with me. I guess I derailed his plans and hopes of getting the daughter
remarried, out of his house and into mine and of course, taking the little
tax dependent with us.
I once dated a railroad woman. This dolly worked for the railroad and I met
her there. She was a Clerk. We started dating eventually becoming quite the
item. We even almost got married; almost. And as you know, almost doesn't
count except in tiddlywinks, horseshoes and grenade fights. Now in the past
I dated lots of women I worked with during my days at Montgomery Ward. The
store and the mall in which it was located was a gold mine of women and
several buddies that worked there and I seemed to be trying to date every
young and single dolly they hired. Hey, everybody’s got to have a hobby,
right?
Now while “Monkey” Ward’s was a soap opera of sorts, the railroad could be
a real “Peyton Place.” For those of you unfamiliar with the old television
show, it was based on the novel of the same name written by Grace
Metalious. It was essentially a prime time soap loaded with romance, drama,
murder, extramarital affairs, scheming, conniving, more romance, more
extramarital affairs; you get the picture. The show was such a huge hit
that it was aired with new episodes two and three nights a week during its
run from 1964 to 69. My grandmother used to love it and being that I was
over there so often, I had to watch it too.
Ya so the railroad was really a Peyton Place, although I don't recall
anybody there getting murdered. At first we kept our little romance quiet
from the rest of the railroad. What they didn't know about us meant we
didn't get talked about. I've told you that old adage of “telegraph,
telephone, telerail.”
So there we were, sort of sneaking around dating. No, we didn't dash off to
those “secluded little hideaways” like they talk about in the movies or on
TV to carry on with our little romantic tryst. We just didn't have our
little romance out in the open at work. And we certainly didn't double up
with anybody from work and their spouse or significant others. Then we got
caught so to speak.
We were out one evening and had stopped at this one lounge and club for a
drink. While sipping our drinks and talking, I hear my name called out, and
called out by a very familiar voice. It was a Conductor we worked with and
his girlfriend. They joined us and we had a great evening with them.
The following day I worked an afternoon job. I wasn't at work five minutes
when about half a dozen people asked me about my dating this Clerk. Gee,
word spread around quickly of our little romance, sort of like a fire in a
hayloft.
“When you need to get the word out fast, really fast to the largest number
of people possible, there’s no service quicker than Western Union’s
Telerail.”
This dolly really understood the railroad life as not only was she a
railroader, so was her father and several of her father’s friends. She
periodically worked as a Crew Caller and fully understood the uncertainties
of the extra board as well as seniority and getting bumped. And being that
she was on the inside so to speak, I was often able to get some inside
information. Such information could and did assist me in making or not
making seniority moves and when to and not to mark off. I guess this was a
form of insider trading as I made money from some of the information I was
given. But unlike those deeply routed in the stock market, there was no
fraud involved here and I was not likely to be sitting in front of a
Security and Exchange Commission panel investigating my activities.
A few people chided me for seeming to be in the right place at the right
time and complained that having a Caller for a girlfriend was an unfair
advantage. Maybe so, but I wasn't complaining. I told them they should find
themselves a Caller of their own to take up with.
This dolly used to call me from work when she had some free time, which was
no big deal, or at least I didn't think it was until later. She did get in
trouble for it though as they were long distance calls to Indiana. She was
required to reimburse the company for using their phones to make
unnecessary long distance calls. She was upset and thought I should help
her pay for them. I wasn't about to pay as I didn't make the calls and
never asked or expected her too. And needless to say, I never did assist
her in paying for any of them.
“You're just a big meany!”
At one point I guess we were the railroad’s “cutest couple.” We had a date
set, the hall rented; the church arranged and planned on a pretty big
wedding with lots of railroaders in attendance. Gee, that would have been a
drunk fest. And of course, no good railroad party is complete until the
first drunk is thrown out. The stock in the beer companies and alcohol
distillers would have skyrocketed after that affair.
But before the big matrimonial soiree could take place, the relationship
started to go south. I won't get into the sorted details of the entire
situation as it doesn't really matter. Suffice it to say though; I was the
one that brought this romance to an end. I did discover after we had split
up that those phone calls were in part, her way to check up on me to see if
I was really home or out and about tomcatting around. I also learned that I
was being checked up on whenever I wasn't home as well. If she called my
house and I wasn't home, she called the railroad to see if I was working.
I didn't work all the time and didn't spend every free minute with her. I
still had a life and did stuff with my friends and a couple of my cousins.
If she didn't know where I was, she was certainly trying to find out. I was
told that she would call and see if and what I was working and when I went
on duty. If I wasn't working, she would actually get snippy with whoever
the Caller was demanding to know where I was if I wasn't there. Gee, the
Callers didn't keep track of my every move so how would they know? Contrary
to the ideas being put into her head by this girl’s mother, I wasn't out on
the prowl. I was a good boy and believed I had no reason to be.
In any event, the relationship came crashing down and ended with a thud. Or
maybe it was a thump. Perhaps it was a wump. In any event we still had to
work together though and I dealt with this situation in a professional
manner. For the longest time I only spoke to her with regards to work. I
was polite and courteous and nothing more. There was absolutely no
conversation between us at all otherwise. I figured the less I said to her,
the less likely there would be a confrontation or something really ugly
taking place.
Even though it ended and ended rather badly, you know, crashing and burning
and all that, I did take something good out of this relationship, although
this keepsake of sorts did not actually appear until after the party was
over. And I also learned a valuable lesson as well.
A short period of time after the end came to pass; I was sitting in the
Operator’s office. There was one in particular that I was friends with and
whenever I had some free time, I would stop in to seen him and we would
shoot the bull. Anyway, one afternoon before my job went on duty, I was in
talking to this Operator. The now ex-dolly walks into the office obviously
wanting to converse with the Operator but observes me sitting in there with
him. She just turns and walks out. She does the quick in and out thing
several times over the course of about ten minutes, not saying a word each
time but more than once giving me the eye. I cannot recall now of it was
the crook, evil or stink eye, but there was an eye just the same.
Finally after making about four or five appearances like this, the last
time she entered, just before she turned to exit the office she looks at
the Operator and says “Patiently waiting!” in a rather sarcastic voice,
then leaves. We both looked at each other in bewilderment and then the
Operator makes a strange looking face and in a very mocking tone of voice
says “Patiently waiting!” and we both enjoyed a good laugh.
From that point on, “Patiently waiting” has become a staple phrase in my
vocabulary. Any time somebody informs me on the radio or telephone at work
that we will have to sit and wait I always respond, “We'll be patiently
waiting over.” I use that phrase to this day. For those that have listened
in on the scanner and heard me use it, now you know the rest of the story.
This Operator also jumped on this little bandwagon and whenever he would
inform me on the radio that we would be sitting and waiting for a signal
for a while, he too would state “You'll have to patiently wait, over.”
And the lesson learned with the end of that relationship was to never again
get involved with somebody I worked with. Instead, I hooked up with female
passengers when I worked at the South Shore and as many of you know, that
is where I met the beautiful bride. If you missed that story you can go to
http://www.railroad.net/articles/columns/hottimes/hottimes_20020729.asp and
read about it.
With the engagement and then marriage to the beautiful bride, the totally
complicated and hassle filled life of commingling dating and railroading
drew to a close.
I had mentioned the pager issue earlier. As I had stated, it seemed that it
was usually doctors, some sort of higher level managers and the like that
carried them around. Quite unlike today where we see ten year olds wearing
and using them. Whenever somebody’s pager would go off in a public place,
everybody would look to see who it was and perhaps if they appeared to be a
doctor or something.
One morning at work the crew I was working with and I were discussing being
out and about while working the extra board and getting called to work. I
had mentioned the fact that my pager had gone off the other night while my
date and I were at the movies. I was working with “Uncle Daryl Guthrie that
day and he laughed and commented that maybe the next time it goes off like
that I should say blurt out something like “Dammit, I knew I should have
been a gynecologist instead of surgeon.” So I decided to run with that
thought. The next time the pager went off in public I commented something
to the effect of “Oh for crying out loud, can't those people do anything at
that hospital without me?” I got quite a few looks as I'm sure people
probably thought I looked awfully young to be a doctor.
Too young to be a doctor perhaps, but certainly not too young to play it.
And so it goes.
Tuch
There is a library of Hot Times on the High Iron columns dating back to
July 2002 located on the railroad.net web site at
http://www.railroad.net/articles/columns/hottimes/Default.asp If you
missed some since then, stop in and catch up.
Hot Times on the High Iron ©2003 by JD Santucci
--- Joseph Santucci
BTW, why are you steppin on my turf Selkirk? You know I am the Tutch recognized official Hot Times crossposter. You know that I am trying to prop you up as our posting king against the Robs and CC's of this world. You're a known evil and a relitively benign regime. This board dosen't need a bunch of wacko fundamentalist posters taking over here. Why can't you just let me help you help me and call it a day.
We're all monrels, winos, rhinos and lunatics here - a broadbased dysfunctional family ... some of us want to see steam powered wooden cars on the Broadway Express, others lose their toasters on wheels, still others revel in high greens without fear of being taken out of service and being sent downtown, and some are going through Riga-mortis. I'm sure we all have aunts, uncles and cousins we don't want to be seen in public with, but we're still a family, including the stray kitties that come to us not out of love, but body heat. :)
We'll survive. Just ignore that man pooking out from behind the homeball. Heh.
I miss the nuances and details of the mechanics of the subway system, but we've managed to chase those folks away. :(
"We're going on strike," Neil Silver, president of the Amalgamated Transit Union, said Monday. The decision was made a day earlier, after negotiations between the union and the Metropolitan Transportation Authority broke off with "absolutely no progress" despite a state mediator, Silver said.
"This is a great tragedy for the people of the county of Los Angeles, the people who depend on public transportation to get to work, to get to school," Los Angeles County Supervisor Zev Yaroslavsky said.
The walkout by about 2,500 MTA employees was scheduled to start at 12:01 a.m. Tuesday against the nation's third-largest transit system. The MTA operates 1,900 buses, as well light-rail and subway lines, carrying about 500,000 riders a day.
The parties are at odds over the mechanics union's health fund, which is in dire financial shape.
Union officials earlier said that bus drivers and train operators would honor the picket lines. The strike would shut down the countywide transit system for the second time in three years.
A walkout by bus drivers in 2000 shut down the transit agency's bus, subway and light-rail service for 32 days, forcing approximately 400,000 riders to scramble for other ways to get to and from work.
Some 9,000 union workers could potentially honor the strike, MTA spokesman Marc Littman said. Sixteen other municipal bus lines in the region were expected to operate normally, as were Metrolink commuter trains.
The transit agency said an independent audit found the union mismanaged the health trust fund. The MTA also is seeking increased contributions from mechanics for the fund.
The union wants greater contributions from the MTA to cope with soaring medical costs. The MTA pays nearly $17 million every year into the fund, which is administered by the union and pays for medical coverage for 2,000 employees and retirees.
"Union leaders basically ran the trust fund into the ground and now they want the taxpayers to bail them out," transit authority CEO Roger Snoble said
http://www.mta.net/
I also find it amazing how the MTA in LA could go on strike for 32 days! It caused total panic in New York City when we lost power for ONE day and could not use public transport! I happen to think the lost of public transport in LA is just a secondary thought for most commuters since the majority use the highways. Basically the poor or underemployed are the only ones who use the buses.
The man who commutes by four hours reminds me of myself. It takes me almost that much time to get to work and back so I feel for him.
Anyhow, if any of you were wondering what this was all about ....
Brennan & Carr is a resturant in Brooklyn. So, RIP-TA-Hope was talking about the one in Brooklyn. The new one is in Rockville Centre. On the walls are a bunch of B & W photos of Brooklyn, e.g. Coney Island (Wonder Wheel, Patachute Jump, Nathan's, etc.) and some shots that include trolley cars ..... one of them catches 4573.
Anyway if Corona has let loose the lone redbird for today and flying on the #7 line, I may go tonight to hunt it down. Target: Railfan window, of course.
No need to meet up if anyone in interested, just hunt for the same bird as I am and I should be on it after 7 PM (if Main St. tower decides not to put it back in it's cage in Corona.) Better have good aim, or else you will miss your train. lol
I would say you were wrong. Wanna make any more left field predictions?
Redboids are ALLERGIC to Tuna, brah... leave the Bumble Bee@home.
Elmer Fudd would have made a great TA employee !
Bill "Newkirk"
When were 357's wheels changed?
Nice to hear some good news about a Johnstown streetcar after hearing bad news about another one.
Bill "Newkirk"
Unca shoebeam drives 1 helluva sleigh!!
Snowballs for Sea Beach Fred ?
Bill "Newkirk"
(though I suspect the goods will be damaged upon arrival out in Arcadia)
Ship them in dry ice................postage due of course !
Bill "Newkirk"
MTA New York City Transit
Service Alert
Posted on:10/13/03 1:31:59 PM
Due to a Police investigation at Broadway Nassau, there is no A or C train service at the station.
A and C trains are running on the F line between West 4th Street and Jay Street-Borough Hall in both directions until further notice.
"Five Two 7 to Manhattan Four Six is next stand clear of the doors"
Don't they usually spell the street numbers in Manhattan, and then only the triple-digit numbers get spelled?
I get "Wun atey ferst" rather than "one eight one".
Taken beforethey put the new signs up.
Taken before they put the new signs up.
2. Is the A line shuttle going to last much longer?
And the Myrtle Ave line, does that include all the way to Metropolitan (I also presume that old Myrtle el. to Jay St is included)
You got it. Specifically, their chaining zero is at the disappeared end-of-track at Park Row.
Darn, I thought this question would last longer, but Congratulations!
* People do reverse commute to Brandis -- we had about 1.5 full carloads (spread over 2 cars).
* The existing schedule is actually pretty smart, skipping stops between Waltham and Concord on the outbound reverse commute run.
* The inbound mid-day train yesterday was well-used, some school kids boarded and the load was about 2 cars (spread over 3 cars that were open -- usually they only open two).
* The number of people who ride is pretty amazing, although this might be due to the holiday weekend.
Heavy food and Rickety Redbird Riding don't mix. Maybe you could go into the BFC for RRR.
You're not talking about the Museum cars are you ?
Bill "Newkirk"
That's just one man's speculationn. No proof of that has ever been shown.
David
Besides, politicians don't have the best track record at telling the PUBLIC *anything* in advance..
Are you saying this is a rumor in the making ? LOL !
Bill "Newkirk"
IIRC, Pataki rode (one of) the first trains into South Ferry Loop when
the branch re-opened in September 2002...
Dont recall there being much pre-notification of Bill's ride plan.
In other words, it wouldn't surprise me if they haven't announced publicly.
Of course, chances are there will be a few more R-62A trainsets heading over to Flushing first.
wayne
--Mark
I dunno, but the people who manufacture and sell Bondo should be along for the last ride !
Bill "Newkirk"
Assuming nothing changed from last night, the rest was 9316-9613-9612-9608-9609-9610-9611-9595-9594
Mark
Specifically 6688 arrived at the museum in CT in Red, so she's correct for 1988. Trolley #220 is another good example. She was originally a cable car, then a conduit car, but she actually was fitted with a trolley pole in her Bronx service, so she's correct too.
9327: Last remaining 2000 Subway Series car
9587: US Open car (with "Green 7" logos) in very good shape
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
David
Mark
Mark
No mother, just his older sister, Julie.
Mark
No way
I was just about to say that also, because I am the webmaster of the MTA BVE website here New York City Subway BVE Authority.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I've also recorded some R46 running sounds.
And I agree, those (L) announcements are pretty horrible to listen to.
The L and the 2 apparently is from the same maker, and I think the 2 is morphed pretty well. I found some recorded announcements online(from a subtalkers site actually) and I replaced them into the routes. It sounds more smooth and consistant to me. If that %#%@$@! enic would send his sounds to someone for a website I would've had them all. Though I would say the 2's announcements are much clearer and uniform than the L's.
At the time the L and 2 routes were made, the three voice recordings were the best announcements we could produce. No one on the team had the ability to record the actual announcements, so we made do with what we could. We are aware that many people were not pleased with the result and this will change on future routes. We ask for your understanding concerning this matter and if you need assistance in removing announcement commands from the route to make a quieter driving experience, will be more than happy to assist you.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I don't blame you for running the R-36 though, the R-143 has a real learning curve to be able to stop those things. I wonder which ones the motormen perfer to drive.
PS. Before any of you count, yes there's about 6 misspellings on here!
Anyhow, I was able to order the World's Fair Add-on set.
It also shows a pair of R-17s in work service (add-ons),
and you can get a World's Fair single on a flatcar ... I guess you could pretend that you were taking it on a World tour ... just don't go anywhere near Branford or Stef will unload it
Since WHEN were the graffiti'd cars made available??
Regards,
Jimmy
I have a question to put to the public. Would anyone have information on the specs for Philadelphia's Broad Street Line Subway cars? I know that they were built in the Mid 1980's by Kawasaki, but going to their site has given me no information, and my communications with SEPTA go unanswered.
I am an Architectural Professor in Philadelphia, and am thinking of teaching an architectural studio dealing with mass trasnit. I would be very interested to learn the dimensions of the BSL and MFL cars (width, height, length, door spacing and dimensions, number of cars per train, etc.)
Can anyone help?
Thanks in advance.
They were built and delivered by 1976. I don't know if they have received an overhaul yet. It is possible they got some kind of overhaul about 10 years ago.
1982, according to a Kawasaki produced video that I have.
Chuck Greene
The first LRV was outshopped in 1980 and the production cars were delivered in 1981 (and bear an aluminum plate with that date.
The B-4 cars had the first outshopped in 1981 and the production cars were delivered the following year.
The prodution LRV's were assembled the Boeing-Vertal facility in Philly. I forget where the B-4's were assembled.
Boeing is in Chester County. Boeing-Vertol was a helicopter maker, now called Being Helicopter, in Ridley Township. They make the V-22 tiltrotor aircraft and certain helicopters (the Chinook if I'm not mistaken, unless they've moved the latter to Mesa, Arizonna). I believe the light railcar facility was nearby, but I could be wrong.
Frank Piasecki is a legend- the inventor of the Flying Banana.
Sean@Temple
Class B-IV cars
The cars were built by Kawasaki Heavy Industries in 1982-1983.
The cars are 67 feet, 6 inches long and 10 feet, 1.5 inches wide
12 feet, 4 inches high, each car weighs 70K lbs [35 tons]
Two separate groups of cars were built
501-576 are Single End cars [with one cab at the front end]
651-699 are Double End cars [cabs at each end of each car]
Single End cars seat 65 passengers
Double end cars seat 62 passengers
Minimum number of train cars is 1 car [with double end car only], 2 cars [with single end cars with cabs facing in opposite directions]
Maximum is 8 cars [as designed], but operating needs keep the maximun number of cars per train set at 5 cars. Usually the consists tend to look like this: SSDSS [S-single, D-double], but other combos are seen on this line, like a two-car train with a SD, or DD. No matter the set up, on a Single End car, the cab MUST be facing outward on each end of the train.
The door spacing on the BSS cars is slightly irregular.
Market-Frankford Cars
Class M4 cars:
The cars were built 1996-1999 by Adtranz [now part of Bombardier]
The cars are 55 feet, 5 inches long, 8 feet, 10 inches wide, and 12 feet, 1 inch high [w/o AC]
All cars are married-pairs 1001-1220
All cars seat 49 passengers
Minimum train length is 2 cars, maximum length is 6 cars, though cars are designed for a maximum lenght of 8 cars per train, but the length of stations limit them to 6 cars. Some station platforms are long enough to accomodate an 8 car train, such as the 2nd ,30th, 34th, 40th st station, Spring Garden, and the FTC [Frankford Transportation Center]. virtually all of the rebuilt El stations on the Frankford side can accomodate an 8 car train.
I hope this can help.
I got my info from a book called "Philadelphia Transit Vehicles 1895 to 1995" by George W Metz. Unfortunately, this book is now out of print.
The Market-Frankford Line dimensions was more suited for trolleys, hence the track gague which is the same as the trolleys in Philly. In fact, during WWII, older trolleys [the Hog Island-4000's cars]that needed rebuilding was towed through the El and subway to 69th st for rebuilding because of a huge backlog in PTC's regular trolley shops
And the BSL cars do need either overhaul work or total replacement. They're a disaster right now.
Ideal upgrade: WORKING PA system, AV link between platform and cabs with door controls for both sides on the operator's side (so there can be railfan windows, sinc the operator won't need to cross the cab for anything) and similar service/destination setup to the MFL or the cars WMATA has (I've advocated for this on SubTalk A LOT); front/rear sign uses the color coding AND text to indicate the train's service level (Including out of service and Special trains and the Spur), while the side sign, also using the color coding, shows the train's destination. Main reason I want this is so Ridge trains don't need to go from 8th Street/Griard to either of the Express designations to get north of Girard on the Express tracks, and then go BACK to 8th Street/Girard north of Erie/North Philadelphia. Current Identra designations for 8th-Erie and 8th-Fern Rock have the Ridge go to the local tracks, even though it's entirely possible to turn back on the express tracks at Erie and go express to FR. The sign would also allow for an 8th-Olney designation, and only showing the destination would cut down on confused riders boarding a southbound train to go north.
I never had any problems with the MFL announcements, they aren't that common. The main problem I've faced was only half the doors opening, and half the lights off. Of course, I don't ride the MFL every day like some others anyway. With the announcements in the subway, putthing in additional announcments for route connections wouldn't even be worth the effort, you can barely hear the "lady" speak anyway unless you are paying VERY close attention. As long as the written message is correct.
It would be nice if the B-IVs were made to be a lot nicer than they are now though...just feels like a grungy cheap subway.
Mark
You're right about the stations.
SEPTA did renovate Temple University (and did a very nice job) - the station is handsome, airy (for a BSS station, anyway) and it is ADA compliant.
Race-Vine was redone in the early 1990s, and looks pretty good (except that no ADA upgrade was done - strange considering that one entrance is right at Hahnemann University Hospital and close to a rehabilitation institute).
Pattison is OK (and ADA compliant, if I recall right).
The other stations could use some work. A lot of work.
Mark
All due for renovation, but when is another story... they were supposed to be finished this year.
Ron, they're not ALL bad... just the important ones. Oregon's big problem is groundwater runoff, City Hall... need I say more? Supposedly, the same upgrade the other South Phila. stations recieved is going on at Walnut-Locust right now. (Including tile on the support columns, which will be some color green, hopefully different from Race-Vine, or folks are gonna get confused) And what is happening to W/L will be done to Spring Garden, Girard, North Philadelphia, and both Fairmount and Fairmount on the Ridge Spur (seriously, most operators refer to the short island platform affair down there as "Fairmount on the Ridge" - nice idea). Race-Vine and Erie are also due for the same rehab as South Philly, though Erie is half done with new paint and lighting and the raised ceiling. All it needs now is the redone platform, new signage, and it'll be just about finished. Considering Erie is meant to be the connecting stop between Boulevard trains and the rest of the BSL, it should be done soon. Wyoming was recently done, and last I saw Hunting Park, they had installed new lights at least. That just leaves Logan and Fern Rock (which hasn't been rehabbed AT ALL, aside from the loop track installed in 1993, and the connections to the Regional Rail station platform.) No, I didn't forget Olney, Olney Terminal is just fine. As far as the OTHER two Ridge stations, Chinatown's in good shape, and 8th Street just needs brighter lights, and a good cleaning... maybe a rehabbed platform too.
Erie needs ADA compliance. Race-Vine needs it. City Hall needs it. Walnut Locust needs it (and is tentatively getting it within a few years).
And Olney is not fine until it gets it too.
In other words, it's not City Hall, it's the whole 15th Street/City Hall/Penn Center Suburban Station complex that needs ramps and elevators. SEPTA DOES have plans for this, but is rather hush-hush about it.
Currently, the only definite ADA compliance in their plans is at 30th Street, the rehabbed Frankford and Market Street MFL stations (Including Millbourne, but not the already compliant 69th Street Terminal), and at North Philadelphia, Fairmount, Girard, Spring Garden, and Fairmount on the Ridge when they get rehabbed. No mention of Race-Vine, Erie, the South Broad street stops, the side platformers, nor of 34th Street, 40th Street, 13th Street (though it's indirectly possible), 11th Street (again indirectly possible), or 5th Street on the MFL. 8th Street would be ADA compliant (PATCO elevators) if it had ramps to the platform. The others require use of the elevators in The Gallery or Market East Station, and the connection between there and 11th treet to use their potential ADA compliance (and even at that, eastbound 13th St isn't covered, and 11th Street east ONLY thanks to police vehicle ramps in the crossover) I THINK Fern Rock is covered thanks to the Regional Rail station elevators.
By what logic do you say that? If any stop logically needed it it would be Race-Vine. And Erie is an important stop as well.
Realistically, all the Express stops need it badly.
By what logic do you say that? If any stop logically needed it it would be Race-Vine. And Erie is an important stop as well.
Realistically, all the Express stops need it badly.
"In other words, it's not City Hall, it's the whole 15th Street/City Hall/Penn Center Suburban Station complex that needs ramps and elevators. SEPTA DOES have plans for this, but is rather hush-hush about it."
No, they haven't been hush-hush at all. That part has been nicely described in brochures and press releases.
As far as the ADA compliance on the BSL... yes, the Express stops (and North Phialdelphia) all need it badly. Race-Vine is under Tenet/Hanhemann Hospital and rehab center, while Erie is a rather large interchange point for people coming from Gernamtown, Mt Airy, West Oak Lane, and Chestnut Hill on the H, XH, 23, and 53, as well as people coming from Erie Avenue itself on the 56 (most from Torresdale Avenue jump off at Kensington for the MFL at Erie-Torresdale.) Erie will likely get the ADA compliant features when the Boulevard line is opened, or just before then, if all the Express stops don't get it then (they rehabbed some of the South Philly stops simultaneously). Hunting Park could use it also; a lot of people transfer from the 100% wheelchair accesible routes R and 1 to the Local BSL trains there, and the same goes at Oregon for passengers transferring from routes G, 7, and 68 (not so much from the 23 though), and at Allegheny (recntly worked on) with route 60. I can only think of three stops that could potentially wait for ADA compliant features: Susquehanna-Dauphin, Wyoming, and Logan.
My point exactly. Orange LED signs would go well with the orange color code of the BSL (Orange LEDs, orange signs at station, orange & silver cars). And they'd be easier to read, and even just to SEE than the current bulb-illuminated signs.
Only problems could come with color coding. Unless WMATA hasn't found it yet, YELLOW can't be displayed on the signs, it comes out orange (regular LED color, as with the CAFs). I don't know if white (Locals) can be done either. Personally, I'd use the marker lights (same order as currently) for the front, and just use the LED board located there for service level. Destinations would be on the sides, possibly with a color stripe on both sides of the destination. If I knew how to color text on this board, I'd give an example. But the side (destination) signs would probably not bother with color stripes unless a) yellow can be separated from orange, and use orange for Locals as Standard (white) color, or b) white can be separated from orange, and use standard orange LED color for Ridge signs (yellow is a component of orange after all, and the current destination board's "8th-Market" sign is orange anyway. I'm also unsure of use of red (not-in-service trains) on LED signs, as none of the CAF cars in DC have hit the Red Line yet. I don't know if any rehabbed Breda cars have either.
Chuck Greene
If it helps any:
Most Market-Frankford stations were designed for the old 7-car consists, which were eliminated sometime in the early 1990s. Of course, those were only possible on the older, Budd-constructed cars, which were sent in single units. Typically, the 7-car trains were run Monday-Friday only, with 6-car runs on Saturdays and 4-car trains on Sundays. 6-car trains are now the constant setup every day. 8-car trains are indeed possible, but have never been run, at least in recent years. Aside from the stations Mdlbigcat mentioned, 69th Street Terminal, 15th Street, 13th Street eastbound and 8th Street westbound are designed to hold 8-car consists (though trains stop short of the very end of the platform, thus leaving the extra space in FRONT of the train. Market-Frankford line trains use an "under-running" third rail to collect power, though the old "Almond Joy" (Budd built) cars were somehow able to run on the "over-running" third rail system of the Norristown High Speed Line (Route 100). The wide guage is equal to that used on the Subway-Surface trolley lines.
All BSL stations are designed for 8-car trains (though Fairmount on the Ridge Spur was shortened to hold 2); the 5-car local and express trains generally stop so that the train is centered in the station. Despite high ridership (and peak overcrowding) on those trains, and the 2-car only consists on the Broar-Ridge Spur, married pairs have never been ordered (Married pairs would force an additional car on the local/express trains). For some reason or another (likely because of the transverse cabs and lack of audio/visual feed between cab and station), the extra pair of seats located in the front end of the car (actually within the cab) are only opened on ends connected to another car at the time. The door that closes the cab from the rest of the car can be swung into an open position without allowing riders access to the train controls, thus allowing access to the seats. However, the operator must cross the space those seats occupy in order to open the left side doors (common practice with the many island platform stations, and 8th Street station), and passengers sitting there would be in the way. Likely solution would be to add cameras at the station and monitors in the cabs so the operator can see the left side of the train without actually going over there to look out the window. Door controls for the left side could be rerouted to the right side. That done, the cars could seat two more in the front and rear of the train, and the cab would be more like those on the M4 cars. Broad Street Line uses the common "over-running" third rail to collect power, and is built to standard railroad guage (meaning they could use BSL cars on Regional Rail tracks if they had pantographs, or Regional Rail cars on the BSL if they had third rail shoes.
In the late 70's, Ridge Spur late evening [after 9:30] and Sunday Service was discontinued. In 1979 the spur was closed first by the lack of [decaying] equipment, then was closed during the construction of the Commuter Tunnel that linked the PRR and the Reading Commuter trains. The spur re-opened in 1983 with the delivery of the Kawasaki cars.
The service pattern established in 1983 after the arrival of the Kawasaki cars was this:
1)Fern Rock-Pattison Local/ all times
2)Fern Rock-Walnut-Locust Express/ Weekdays Rush hrs and
Middays
3)Erie-8th Market Local Rush hours/Girard-8th Market shuttle
Middays, evenings [to 9:30 pm] and Saturdays
The Fern Rock-Pattison Locals and Fern Rock-Walnut Locust express used 5 car trains, the Erie/Girard to 8th and Market trains used 2 cars.
In 1992, a switching problem at Erie caused SEPTA to convert the Erie-8th Market trains to an express service from Fern Rock {or Olney}. It was briefly restored to its original 1983 pattern, but compaints from riders forced SEPTA to revert to the express where it exists today.
The BSL info... most of that, even my research through nycsubway.org, SEPTA's own site, and a few books I've found on Philadelphia rail transit didn't detail the exact operations and car lengths. I wasn't even born until 1982, so I'd no idea of anything before the K cars. Thanks for that, hopefully it'll help the guy asking for it all.
3)Erie-8th Market Local Rush hours/Girard-8th Market shuttle
Middays, evenings [to 9:30 pm] and Saturdays
There were some trains to Fern Rock in this arrangement, both on weekdays and Saturdays
a) Rush hours - 6 car Fern Rock-Pattison Express, 4 car Erie-8th Market Locals.
Expresses making what stops exactly?
In the late 70's, Ridge Spur late evening [after 9:30] and Sunday Service was discontinued. In 1979 the spur was closed first by the lack of [decaying] equipment, then was closed during the construction of the Commuter Tunnel that linked the PRR and the Reading Commuter trains. The spur re-opened in 1983 with the delivery of the Kawasaki cars.
How late did that spur RUN? It's not among the overnight runs you listed.
In 1992, a switching problem at Erie caused SEPTA to convert the Erie-8th Market trains to an express service from Fern Rock {or Olney}. It was briefly restored to its original 1983 pattern, but compaints from riders forced SEPTA to revert to the express where it exists today.
I warned them about that. As far as the final terminal for express Ridge runs, Fern Rock was the terminal from the conversion until October 1997 when they reverted back to the 1983 pattern. December 1997 is when they reverted again to express runs, doing them actually the Friday before the date reflected in the timetable issued for the new service. Problems with the October '97 pattern were:
Express trains were now stopping at North Philadelphia, which most riders using the express over the Ridge used the express to AVOID.
Ridge trains were held outside Erie until the local had cleared out, unless it was a rare through train from FRTC.
The minimum waiting time was five minutes between local and Ridge at Erie or Girard. Express trains tended to arrive even earlier than locals, making a much longer waiting time.
The real reason for the service - the increased ridership to Temple University and thus Cecil B. Moore Station - was a prediction that came true, but between both Routes C (Cheltenham/City Hall AND Fern Rcok/South Phila), 23, 47, AND all the Regional Rail Lines in addition to existing BSS local trains, the Spur was fine where it was, and created more of a problem for locals than anything else.
The sole problem with Ridge express runs were the tie-ups with all 3 trains going to Fern Rock. That's why the December '97 change has trains turning back in Olney on weekdays (with the extra peak trains going to Fern Rock to sit until the evening peak run) until 7:00 PM - otherwise, the Ridge and express trains get in the way of each other, and THAT ties up locals north of Olney as well (because the Express needs to cross to the local tracks to access the loop around the shops - going through the old stub entrance caused even more delays), and sometimes backs up express tack movements as far as Erie.
With the ne Roosevelt Blvd subway proposal having all Express trains run from Walnut-Locust to the Roosevelt Blvd. line, it's likely the Ridge will go back to a full-time Fern Rock-8th Street express run, including the North Philadelphia stop.
When Express restarted in 1983, The route ran like a Super-Express starting at Fern Rock, then stopping at Olney, Erie, Girard, City Hall, and Walnut-Locust. Passenged demands added the Race-Vine and Spring Garden stops.
Until 1991 the Express and Local shared the tracks between Olney and Erie because there were NO tracks in the space between the local tracks. The express tracks were installed between Olney and Erie as a preliminary portion of the Railworks program, as well as the construction of the Rail-Subway station link at Fern Rock. SEPTA expanded Express service on the BSS to accomodate the Railroad riders while the rail line was shut down between Market East and Wayne Junction.
Until the late 70's, the Ridge Spur ran until 12:00 AM
And last, but not least THERE WERE NEVER ANY TRAINS OVER 6 CARS ON THE MARKET-FRANKFORD LINE. The Stations [especially before the rebuilding] could not accomodate a train longer than 6 cars. You must have gotten the MFSE confused with PATH, that ran 7 car trains.
I should know, I've been here in Philly for 38 of my 45 years.
Midnight on the Spur? But... why? These days, it'd seem like a better proposition, but they'd be better off skipping Fairmount (too dangerous to get there) after 10:00 PM.
I also knew of the missing express tracks between Erie and Onley, and why they were added. What I don't know is: why the heck did they not just lay them there in 1959, when the original Express tracks were laid? Or what kind of layout the stops had then (was the trackbed THAT wide from creation, or did they expand? Surely the BSL wasn't built with a four-track wide trackbed with only two tracks for years; even the South Philly alignment isn't centered in case they decide to open up Borad Street and add two tracks). That also begs the question: if the trackbed wasn't four wide, then how did they facilitate construction of the side platform stops?
PATH? Only seen it once (August 2001 solo trip to Newark and back). There's never been a 7-car consist? I coulda sworn I saw them at least twice (admittedly, it would have been over the Independence Day weekend, that was the only time I was ever able to get away on the weekdays). Then again, I was much younger at the time. As far as accomodations, why on earth would they make the underground (minus 11th and 5th Streets, 8th Street east and 13th Street west)and terminal stops able to hold 8 cars, but only 6 cars for the rest of the system? Did they intend to have actual expresses at one time? And why retain the 8-car holding at FTC, if they've never run 8-car trains in the first place?
Then again, with SEPTA, they'll pull all sorts of sneaky tricks and expand cars and service without really telling anyone. Rumor has it the overnight train runs on the MFL and BSL will return in about 12 years. (or whenever they finish rehabbing both lines completely) Why they decided to run buses overnight is beyond me, but it effectively lengthens the trip, and unnecessairly at that.
Race-Vine was added in the early 1990s (Ibelieve 1992 or 1993). I was still in medical school at Hahnemann when BSS express trains began stopping there.
Sean@Temple
Yes, I have the 2004 Subway calendar, but who wants to look at just one calendar each month, not me ;-)
Thanks. I'm oriented now.
See http://thejoekorner.quuxuum.org/chainall.htm for more info.
Antonio Luciano broke the chain, and look what happened to him.
B = Broadway
BB = Broadway Boulevard (the name sometimes used for the street north of Columbus Circle).
E = Eastern Parkway
J = Jerome Avenue
L = Lex (above 42nd)
MM = Manhattan Mainline (Lex below 42nd)
P = Pelham
W = White Plains Road
I'm not to sure about the other letters.
Methinks the IRT is due for some new chaning.
HMMM..... How would *you* rechain the IRT....
B = South Ferry to 242 via Varrick / Broadway
A = Nevins to Woodlawn via Lexington / Park
C = 96 St Bway to 241 Street
C2 = 135 St to Lenox Terminal
C3 = East 180 St to Dyre Avenue
D = 125th Street to Pelham Bay Park
E = New Lots to Chambers Street
E2 = Flatbush to Franklin Ave
T = Times Square to Main Street
T2 = Times Square to Grand Central (Shuttle)
Elias
How about the branch over the Queensborough Bridge? And for that matter, the Willis Av Spur, the Botanical Gardens Spur and the 34th and 42nd St El Shuttles?
Capital letters indicate the chaining letter.
I'm even throwing in the zeroes for these routes
(1): Brooklyn Bridge station 1239 station)
(4): Park Av & 38th St (south of Grand Central 1239
(6): South Ferry (IRT Els)
(7):near midpoint of Times Square 7 station
(8): Original Zero of New York, Westchedter, & Boston RR @ Oak Point Yard)
(9): Just north of the inner loop to outer loop crossover north of South Ferry
I'm even throwing in the zeroes for these routes
(1): Brooklyn Bridge station 456
(2): B'way & 97th St (north of 96th St 1239 station)
(4): Park Av & 38th St (south of Grand Central 456)
(5): Broadway & 44th St (north of Times Square 1239
(6): South Ferry (IRT Els)
(7):near midpoint of Times Square 7 station
(8): Original Zero of New York, Westchedter, & Boston RR @ Oak Point Yard)
(9): Just north of the inner loop to outer loop crossover north of South Ferry
1. What is the easiest park-and-ride lot to reach from the interstate? I like to keep my driving in a metro area I don't know well to a minimum.
2. What are some good photo locations?
Thanks in advance,
Mark
When will you be there, I live less than 2 hours away---perhaps we can get together and do a little railfanning..
Mark
I take it you're in the western panhandle of Maryland. You live in a very beautiful part of the country.
Mark
Station Square - here you can get some good pics of the T coming over the bridge to and from downtown. You will be able to get the downtown cityscape in the background. Broadway Ave - This section of the LRV runs on the street, and there are many hillsides from which you can take pictures. Castle Shannon Junction - By this point you're into more suburban areas, but there are many grassy areas you can post up on to take some pictures. Also, across from the Castle Shannon Junction is a Shop n Save. It's on an elevated parking lot, so you can sit up there and get some shots of that stretch of track. If you feel comfortable with your navigation, you could go on top of Mt. Washington, on Grandview Ave. This is possibly the best view of the city of Pittsburgh, and will provide great shots of the T crossing the Mon River out of downtown. Similar shot to those from Station Square, but you'll be much higher up, and will get a whole lot as far as background goes. I strongly suggest this if you're not worried about getting lost.
Hope this helps. As far as getting to a park n ride lot, you can email me exactly where you'll be coming from, and I can give you exact directions to mostly any park n ride lot. I spent my first 19 years of my life in Pittsburgh, so I'm very familiar with most of the LRV-serviced neighborhoods.
I haven't figured out my inbound route just yet. I'm guessing I'll be going on 279 at some point, so Dormont junction sounds like a good choice. I'll email you for the precise directions
Thanks again!
Mark
PORT AUTHORITY: Light rail disruptions
No light-rail service will be available south of Mt. Lebanon Station all day Saturday and Sunday.
The Port Authority said the time will be used to continue work on the $500 million Stage 2 improvement project.
During the temporary shutdown, shuttle buses will operate to the Library and South Hills Village end of the lines.
However, service will be provided over the weekend in the Downtown subway and between Downtown and Mt. Lebanon Station.
The work is weather-related and the schedule of closings could be changed at the last minute. Normal service will resume throughout the 22-mile system on Monday morning.
Mark
David
Sean@Temple
Isn't this trolley also going to be making an appearance at the 40th Street portal that day?
Mark
Sean@Temple
P.S. where ever it is going to be, I will be there around 1:30
Scroll down to Thurs Oct 16
Mark
www.phillynews.com
Mark
AEM7
-------------------------------
wat is rankinq of larqest transit systems?
We can all aqree tat NYC as te larqest. But wat about 2 and 3?
I read WMATA was eiter 3 or 4. I uess tis means buses and trains.
LA beating NJ AND Philly? Surprise surprise!
1) Moscow
2) Tokyo
3) Seoul
4) Mexico City
5) NYC
6) Paris
7) Osaka
8) London
9) Hong Kong
10) St Petersburg
Mark
www.phillynews.com
Mark
AEM7
-------------------------------
wat is rankinq of larqest transit systems?
We can all aqree tat NYC as te larqest. But wat about 2 and 3?
I read WMATA was eiter 3 or 4. I uess tis means buses and trains.
LA beating NJ AND Philly? Surprise surprise!
1) Moscow
2) Tokyo
3) Seoul
4) Mexico City
5) NYC
6) Paris
7) Osaka
8) London
9) Hong Kong
10) St Petersburg
(1) eggs thrown at train
(2) rocks thrown at train, breaking window -- in one case I saw what seemed like the result of a ball bearing fired at train from an airgun or BB gun
(3) tags and other writings on station benches, advertizing, walls, and in the trains
The rash seem to have started in the past 3 months, along with increased smoking in stations.
AEM7
Just in case you didn't know, there is no difference between Ashmont and Braintree trains. All trainsets run in all service groups, and there is no dedicated "Ashmont" fleet. So if you think there are more damage to the Ashmonts than to the Braintrees, it's an observational bias.
AEM7
I was referring to the route, not the equipment. It ususally happens near Fields Corner.
Most likely a small group of people doing this. This activity can result in serious injury and death. The MBTA police would be well advised to request assistance from other departments and deploy undercovers, dogs and perhaps do some aircraft-based surveillance (they have night-vision gear now, like thermal imaging) to round up these people. Often if you can get one or two, they will lead you to the rest.
Robert
Robert
Thanks for the clarification.
From the way I see it, whatever the last two trains from 207th St to Lefferts are, that's what is used in the shuttle.
NOT.
It probably has NOTHING to do with equipment, but rather with PEOPLE!
Suppose a crew came on at Lefforts (Or Pitkin) and ran that shuttle from Midnight to.... what 6 AM...
That crew still has two hourse to live, and they *do* need extra bodies to manage the rush hour, so their last run is a round to 207.
Who is to say it is even the same equipment... equipment changes during the course of your job anyway.
Elias
til next time
Joe Butler
http://www.johnvillanueva.com/sites/subwaycars.html
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
1/9: R62A
2: R142
3: R62/A
4: R62, R142
5: R142
6: R142A
7: R62, R36WF
Just off the top of my head. I could be wrong about some of these.
Joe Butler
He's only speaking the truth, you are one.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
LMAO. j/k
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Joe Butler
David
And R-33WF
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Joe Butler
David
Joe Butler
That's going to be pretty bad if two 10' wide subway trains come at each other. Each car will hang out 2.5 feet beyond the track. Crunch!
It certainly has to be more even if you don't count sway.
Normally, the distance between tracks is the same has the distance between the railheads, 4 feet, 8.88 inches.
False, of course.
In the case of 11-foot track centers, there would be a space of 6 feet 4 inches between the rail heads of parallel tracks. Oh, and standard gauge is 4 feet 8½ inches IIRC.
Amtrak has passenger cars as wide as 10 feet 6 inches IIRC.
Those specialized cars for double-stacking containers can be even wider than 10'6"—this necessitates either gauntlet tracks or retractable platform sections on high-level platforms for such trains (people familiar with NJ Transit’s Raritan Valley Line probably have already noted the gauntlet tracks at the two railroad stations at Union and Roselle Park on the Lehigh Line).
As noted in the caption of the photo, it prevents wide freight cars from scraping against the edge of the high platform.
The Eire RailRoad was well known for its wide, straight ROWs, and can handle some of the biggest freight cars.
Freight cars (indeed all cars) have "plate" specfications and the different plates have different size limits for the cars that wear them.
Plate C is a car of so and such a size... Plate D is something else.
Then each route has restrictions as to what Plates can run on it.
Some lines are rectricted to perhaps Plate C cars, others can take anything. When routing a car from one destination to another the person (or computer) making the routing must know where it can and can not fit, and route it accordingly.
Routing some really oversized loads takes skill and patience, and a knowledge of all lines to be used, and what GOs might be in effect on them when the load is expected to pass through. Some special loads even hire a special conductor to follow and expidite it through its entire journey.
Elias
The Erie was built as a 6 foot gauge railroad and was later rebuilt to standard gauge.
I believe you mean “Erie Railroad”…and to that I say, Piermont Branch? Southern Tier Line?
http://www.csxatlanta.com/maps.htm
You'd be pretty hard pushed to tell that kind of info from a track map, unless you happen to also know the operating plan, own a railroad radio (to hear where the trains are going)... granted, all that is public-domain information pretty much, if you look hard enough.
Another reason is that I'd like to figure out how a commuter rail network would work by what track it'll use.
Wasn't there a few studies done already? They all want to use the downtown track for a station but that happens to be the most congested area in the NS/CSX network in the area (by Spring St Atlanta)
There is a lot to be learned from track maps, but traffic pattern isn't one of them...
AEM7
I used to work directly around the Jones Interlocking (as I now know), so I'm aware of that area (along with Spring) and its volume of traffic. I even walked down the abandoned passenger platform from the old Union Station.
Basically, I rode it from TMS SQ to Willets Point, where it was taken out of service. We knew it was going to happen, because the rollsigns were set for Willets Point. But the C/R actually announced Main St for the first few stops until he got it right.
Click the thumbnail below for a photo of it heading back to the yard, and then look at the rest of the photos I took this evening.
Sadly, opportunites are getting thin, and it's time to get that last great shot of the Redbirds.
I'm going to try to squeeze a run on the Flushing line tomorrow in between classes.
All in all, it’s not easy to take digital night photography (or moving underground photos). I am learning, that I have to relearn taking photos under darker conditions with my digital camera. When I took slides, it was much easier to take night photos, and you didn't need a railing to lean on (shakey or otherwise). But don’t be so hard on yourself, that photo is nice.
Now go out again if you can, while they are still around, and try for a 10. I’m kicking myself because I don’t even have a chance to get to the 7 line in at least the next week, maybe two, so I can’t even take a “7 or 8” rating photo there.
I guess my photo isn't that bad. But it all boils down to the fact that I can't get out there to photograph the birds during hours of decent sunlight. So evening and nite shots are all I have left, and I have to make them count.
Put down the doobies, Brian...
The only thing I would've done differently is, after getting a photo of the whole train, I would've run to the back of the platform, and got a shot of it leaving on the yard lead.
Ozzy and Adam stayed out that long?? I abandoned them a little after 5:00.
Thanks,
Larry
Do it right. Go to Beacon in the AM, then hike over top of the mountain in Hudson Highlands State Park, ending up in Cold Spring at that restaurant. And have a beer what you're there, you'd have earned it. I'd say this weekend and next, if the weather is good, are the best times to do it too.
Larry, I live in Beacon and I second Dutchrailnut's view of Cold Spring. Nice restaurant in the old railroad depot and great views. The only nice restaurant in Beacon is Quinn's on Main Street which is about a two mile walk uphill from the station. And you have to pass through lower Main Street which you don't want to do unless you have a couple of friends watching your back.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Also posting clips of the TLM in action, a six part series. Part 1 now available.
A bunch of R-27/30s were moved to the Eastern Division immediately after Chrystie St.
See if you can sing along
To every thing, turn turn turn
There is season, turn, turn turn
And a time to every purpose under heaven
A time to be delivered, a time to be scrapped
A time to ride, a time get off
A time to get on, a time to say goodbye
A time to enjoy, a time to cry
A time to for farewells, a time to get on the barge
To everything, turn turn turn
There is season, turn turn turn
And a time of every purpose under heaven
A time of new cars, a time of deadbirds
A time of change, a time to refrain
A time to enjoy the birds
A time to to collect the bondo
To eveyrthing, turn turn turn
There is a season, turn turn turn
And a time for every purpose under heaven
A time of memories, a time of loss
A time of farewells, a time of goodbyes
A time to get on
A time to celebrate
To everything, turn turn turn
There is a season, turn turn turn
And a time for every purpose under heaven
A time to gain, a time to lose
A time to mourn, a time to smile
A time for railfanning, a time for photos
A time to be proud, a time to love
A time for saving the birds, I swear it's not too late
Dedicated to the memory of all Redbirds 1957-2004
1965 would be the correct year. The year the last R-32's were delivered and the 1964-65 World's Fair closed.
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't think the Byrds were a group in 1962. However, checking the booklet for the Byrds "Turn,turn,turn Columbia CD, the actual date this tune was recorded was Sept, 10, 1965. Unless it was recorded by Joan Baez, Judy Collins or any other popular folk recording artist from the very early 60's.
Source: Columbia CD CK64846
Bill "Newkirk"
But then, when the police action at Atlantic Avenue was a very smelly person in your car, well.
The token booth clerk wouldn't take the block ticket...he told me to just go through. So I did, then another MTA guy comes chasing after me "hey boss"..so I showed him the ticket and he's like "go give it to the clerk" and I said "I tried but he wouldn't take it from me" so he took it and let me go. Block tickets always make me nervous b/c what if there's a cop or something that doesn't see you give it to the clerk and you get hassled?
We drove up to Mount Union, where the 3-foot gauge EBT met the standard gauge PRR, and the EBT track there is all dual gauge. The Mount Union engine house still had EBT standard gauge #3 inside. The tender is interesting in that it has two couplers, for standard and narrow gauge.
The Rockhill Trolley Museum is located at the same site as the East Broad Top RR (they share some dual gauge track). We managed only two trolley rides this year, but enjoyed both very much.
He does, however, buy cheap coal.
Mr.Kovalchik is still very active. He was checking tickets and helping people board trains last weekend. A photo of Joe Kovalchik talking with passengers waiting for the next train about 4 years ago is on the EBT website.
Joe is the "sticking block".
Of course, the rebuilding of 17 may be an indicator that Joe has achieved wisdom. :-)
At least, I'm not getting more "black disaster" e-mails, like the three (from different folks) about the EBT.
Great to see that RTY was running their snow plow. I've never seen it in action, myself, but it sure is a neat piece of equipment.
Frank Hicks
That’s absolutely crazy. Those routes generate a lot (and probably most) of [the] Money. They should be the ones untouched. (although N4's to Jamaica in the morning are kind of empty). When you have to deal with the notoriously crowded N6 on a daily basis, thoughts of service cuts are downright spooky. Not only is it crowded flagging is almost the norm, Especially during early morning rush (before the N1, N2 and N3 supplement Jamaica bound buses), Hempstead Bound Morning rush, Post 7PM Jamaica Bound travel. And sometimes (because otherwise they’re just really packed) Post 8PM Hempstead bound buses.
But to make this interesting, while a diver was being interviewed about the benefits of reefing, they showed video of the Redbirds on the bottom of the sea floor with sea turtles and other fish checking out the new surroundings. Even a shot, (obviously underwater), of a Redbird interior with the round A/C vents in full view. No more rush hours on the Lex for these birds ! Even some video of one car on top of another, although sideways.
Bill "Newkirk"
Gimme an A!
Gimme a S!
Gimme a B!
Gimme an E!
Gimme a S!
Gimme a T!
Gimme an O!
Gimme a S!
What's that spell?
MESOTHELIOMA!
Now with all the Ambulance chasers out there smelling blood in the water in the form of all the poor saps who had to work on 30s-60's era equipment, wouldn't it be wise for the MTA to avoid yet another potentially litigious situation? Watch late night TV sometime, you'll see 3 or 4 ads per hour advertising the services of some dirtbag lawyer willing to reap in millions for you (at 30% or more to him of course) even if the closest you ever got to asbestos was the brand new water heater in grandma and grandpop's basement some 30-40 years ago.
Let the redbirds go, they'll form the foundations of a new reef, and hopefully spawn a resurgance of life off the Jersey coast. After all, there is the trail in the ocean some 20 miles (IIRC) off the coast that is the somewhat toxic trailings that floated down the Hudson from New York all these years. Hopefully giving sea life a foothold on the edge of this muck pile in the form of an artifical reef will bring in the creatures to start working on breaking down that garbage.
The state Department of Natural Resources. Did you watch "New York Underground"? Did you see "SCDNR" spray painted on the side of the redbird underwater? That stands for South Carolina Dept of Natural Resources, I think.
Please bring some proof that dumping redbirds does anything bad to the water or ocean life. Because I don't think you can.
All of them should go to a museum? How many do you want preserved, the entire fleet? A sampling of a few is more than enough for museums. They can't save every one, and there is certainly no need to save all of them.
Now the reasonings for my conclusions above that you should only keep similar classes, and maybe not every singel class is because you can only maintain and store a certain amount in good condition before they all start to suffer. I rather have just an R32 and R42, well maintained, than R38, R32, R42, and R40M all not maintained well. The same with the redbirds. They already have one in WF colors. Maybe add one other redbird class in the redbird scheme to the fleet (to show how they changed with the GOH. An maybe possibly one of the World Series ones, for a different class. Other than that, it will cost too much to maintain so many different cars, and none of them will be maintained properly because there will be too many.
Please reply via e-mail
Thanks,
Dan
Knowing Poetry in Motion, they'll want a CONDENSED (five-line version)... :L
"Toity-toid and toid never had a redboid ..."
(the more literate of you can complete it, in alexandrines, please and thank you.).
(If Blake can rhyme 'eye' with 'symmetry', I can rhyme Mark with work)
Hand in hand with fairy grace, we will sing an bless this place.
Herbert W. Armstrong is dead. He preached Anglo-Israelitism. Ted Garner Armstrong is also dead, and he was even crazier.
Gawd. I might be able to explain Anglo-Israeli-stuff.
Like, no one is answering your posts but you!
: s
Button up your overcoat
when the wind blows free
take good care of yourself
ride the BMT !
Bill "Newkirk"
--Mark
Like a knife in my heart, and then you twisted the knife, making it hurt even more. Thanks.
Arti
How did people get up and down from the bridge? Tons of steps?
In approximately 1970 I rode a bike across the Queensboro Bridge. The elevator to Roosevelt Island still had a sign announcing its existence but it was out of order (possibly permanently by that time). So we're talking more like 35 years ago.
I think there were also stops at Vernon Blvd and York Ave. These stops were at towers. There was a small elevator and stairs at each tower down to street level.
The stop at Welfare Island connected to the roof of a building adjacent to the north side of the bridge. There was a walkway under the roadway for the south side (Queensbound car). There were elevators in the building and not on the bridge. The building also had elevators for cars and trucks and was the only access to Welfare Island before the bridge to Queens was built in the mid 1950's.
Well the caption on it says "Old restroom building"
While on the subject of the "Broadway Spur" though, was Driggs Ave a side platform station (like Marcy was), or an island platform station like all of the other original Broadway El stations?
It was a trolley station. The lines terminating at Essex/Delancey stopped there.
While on the subject of the "Broadway Spur" though, was Driggs Ave a side platform station (like Marcy was),
It looks like it was a side-platform effort from the BAHN layout.
It's been a few years since I last explored that area, but I don't recall seeing any remnants other than what you mentioned.
Yeah, but the Marcy Ave station was there long before the connection to the bridge was made. The Marcy Ave station dates to 1888. I don't know if any of the station structure from 1888 still exists. It's very possible because the station was not rebuilt when the el was rebuilt in the 1910's. Part of the 1880's station wasn't removed until the 1980's when Marcy was rebuilt. I don't know if any of the 1888 station steel still exists though.
Southbound, virtually every early proposal had it running along either Franklin Avenue or Bedford Avenue to a connection with what is now the Franklin Shuttle at various points, some as far north as Fulton Street, some as far south as by the Prospect Park station (in one case, probably running right under Ebbets Field). One proposal floated by a New York State Transit Commission member pushed a connection with the Nostrand Avenue line, which would have turned the whole thing into an IRT operation.
The Crosstown line was originally set up to be a BRT line. It preceedes the IND by decades (they were talking about a line like this in 1902). In 1913, they were calling it the "Shore to Sound Line" before it was derailed by a lot of NIMBYs in the neighborhoods north of Fulton Street. In a lot of ways, it has a more interesting history than most of the other subway lines in the city.
Not that valuable. The Madison St entrance to the F station at E Broadway is quite nearby.
Also the area on both sides of Williamsburg Bridge is developing, although it looks like it would require a sacrifice of a traffic lane.
Delancey and Columbia might make sense, except for the fact that it wouldn't get you to midtown. Think of how little use Bowery gets, even though it's not a desolate area any more. People will walk the extra distance to a station with trains to midtown.
While at it an Avenue A entrance for L 1st Av stop wouldnt hurt. Any thoughts?
Definitely! Shouldn't even be too expensive. The L isn't that deep there. Would relieve the load on the 14th St bus quite a bit, since more people living on Ave A, Ave B, and in Stuyvestant Town would take the L to a north-south subway instead of the bus.
With the change in demograhics in Williamsburg and along Broadway it may make sense to use the 6th Ave connection from WB. Currently I think, they use M14D.
Arti
Or (much quicker) walk to Delancey and Essex.
But a good point. Williamsburg would make much better use of a midtown connector than they did the last time it was tried.
I don't think killing off a traffic lane to make a station up on the bridge is going to fly, though.
It's usually much quicker to walk crosstown, but the buses are still crowded.
«I don't think killing off a traffic lane to make a station up on the bridge is going to fly, though. »
I'm not that familiar with the bridge. Would that be the only option to add a station?
Arti
Imeediately east of the 1st Ave station.
Is it:
Command Center?
Times Square Tower?
Corona Yardmaster?
(other)?
WHO DECIDES at what minute to pull the last Redbird train?
It could be a Road Foreman (or equivalent position), but I think they handle non-periment equipment decisions.
I don't know exactly how the MTA works, but from that I have picked up over all the Railroads I know that's who I think would make the call. Let's see if someone can post the real answer.
BMTman only pulls Redbirds when the power goes out when 6688's down the line. Then a rope is hooked up to the Avenue L-bound end...
-Stef
Who else is seeking?
Carlos and Brian would be tripping over your tripod!!!!!! lol!!!!!!
Tho I think of Salaam every time I'm NEAR the 7... you ARE there, brah.
When I had left NY back in 1987, I remember that the LIRR and SIRT were using the signaling where -- was stop, \ was warning and | was all clear. NYC had been using its current signaling system since the early 1900's, and then there were the different variants outside on the freight lines.
I find it interesting how here in So California the Metrolink signals only become active when there is a train around or in the signal block: If there are no trains anywhere in the area, the signal blocks are seemingly "Powered Off", but as soon as a train approaches the block before, it activates and shows the status of the block it's for.
Might anyone have a "Signal Lineage/History" of how and who adopted what style of signals throughout the years?
Here is some initial information for record keeping purposes.
10/13/2003
Two redbird sets in service during the evening rush
First set was pulled OOS at approximately 6:50pm
Second set was pulled OOS at approximately 9:50pm
Car #s: 9594-5, 9611-0, 9609-8, 9612-3, 9316, 9735-4
Both sets were running express
10/14/2003
Two redbird sets in service during the evening rush
First set was pulled OOS at approximately 6:00pm
Second set was pulled OOS at approximately 6:50pm
Car #s: 9594-5, 9611-0, 9609-8, 9612-3, 9316, 9735-4 (exact order not confirmed)
Both sets were running local
-William A. Padron
["Junction Boulevard"]
So you're saying that 9316 was taken out of that set sometime Monday night or Tuesday before the PM rush, and replaced with 9309? I honestly did not notice that. Thanks for pointing it out. And I guess we were on the same train last night. You should have come up to the lead motor! That's where the SubTalkers always are. And there are a lot of them riding the redbirds now.
Yes, you are probably right that we were on that same train as well, where I did noticed a lot of Subtalkers were inside R-36wf #9734 (the lead north motor) looking out of the railfan storm door window. However, as of late, I have been more interested in getting my own rides on those R-33s units for myself, because they are last remaining active NYC Transit cars that still have the old-style axiflow fans and original side door panels.
-William A. Padron
["111th Street-Corona"]
-William A. Padron
["Willets Point"]
Today (Thursday 10/16/2003), this consist bypassing that same station above at 6:50am on a Manhattan-bound express run, but left Times Square at 7:20am approximately back to Flushing: S/#9674-9675-9650-9651-9585-9584-9720-9721-9308-9565-9564/N. Also, one other R-33s/36wf consist was spotted leaving Hunters Point Avenue northbound at 7:10am (perhaps the same consist from yesterday's PM rush hour).
-William A. Padron
["5th Avenue-Bryant Park"]
On that consist, the Flushing-bound railfan window (9734) is somewhat less scratched up than the Times Square-bound (9594) end. Just a note for anyone taking pictures.
I took a picture of this train standing on the West end of the Manhattan bound platform at Junction blvd. The picture came out horrible. Were you standing at the Railfan window for the express run?
Nope. Someone else was hogging the railfan window (standing dead center!) as far as Willets Point. I missed my chance to seize the window early, since the train went back out at Times Square very fast - under a minute, I'd say. I'd only walked up three or four cars when the bell rang.
If we're all lucky, it'll still be in service tomorrow for another photo shot!
WHAT are you barking about, cat?
Greenberger and I were -at- the window IN FRONT OF that tall guy
who was standing dead center.
Didntja know there was a GROUP plan to do what you were doing?
Coulda said hello, brah!
I was wondering if you guys were Subtalkers.... wasn't really paying attention to the conversations around me, so I didn't notice you two were talking subway stuff until several stops had gone by!
Anyhow, for most of the trip, there was one guy all the way at the window, two people holding a conversation directly behind him (presumably you two? - one of them was wearing a 1 line baseball cap), and then I was the guy in the black jacket behind them, near the cab's corner.
It could ONLY be...
(1)SF(9)
It doesn't *click* for some people, esse.
The 1 is a 1 ............and 9.
Yeh... I found him obtrusive and when he got off Greenberger took
possession of the left half window and I the immediate front right.
I remember a guy behind us standing with his back to the standee pole...
The rest of the pack came out to play later on....
Today isn't over yet. Rumor will be proven/disproven tomorrow.
N-9582-9583-9308-9721-9720-9584-9585-9651-9650-9675-9674-S
Taken out of service at Willets Point Blvd about 6:10 P.M. A Flushing-bound express passed about five minutes later.
At Flushing it slipped out from under us. We boarded what everyone was pointing to as the next train out, so we could get ahead of the Redbird train for photos, but the Redbird train left first after all.
In desparation, we went to Corona, where a bunch of scattered Redbirds were being collected. I assume they're on their way to 207th now.
The R-33ML's were beautiful as always. The marker lights were even on. Run that train in revenue service already!
Didn't I just say I was on the local? :)
You and Greenberger quit early when I was just warming up on another 'bird and having 2 express runs, the first with Incognito and R32/38 and the second with my Ultimate Rider brah, 1SouthFerry9.
I never made the claim I was gonna ride them till the end. RIPTA did on Monday.
In regard to that particular train on Monday.
And I did ride the train I was on yesterday until it was OOS :).
Hey, I was commuting, not railfanning. So what if I went from Queensboro Plaza to Hunterspoint Avenue via Main St, Grand Central, and Willets Point Blvd, in that order? :)
4 trains later, comes the Redbird (9594) complete with Kool-D
grinning from ear-to-ear at the RFW. Carlton and the rest were in
the anti-RFW.
We took that to TSQ (Kool-D and I at the RFW yacking away)
and we decided to take in ANOTHER ROUND (my 4th of the day)
trip to MAIN ("WHAT'S ANOTHER HOUR AMONG FRIENDS, YA KNOW??)
So Kool-D and I took in another round to MAIN STREET
(where the train was TKO around 8:45pm on the center track).
Consist was: (n) 9594-9595-9308-9610-9611-9316-93xx-??-??-??-?? (s)
DAMN ME I FORGOT THE OTHER CAR NUMBERS.
Kool-D and I then took a seated ride into TSQ on a r62 with RFW.
Good times, brahs.
Nice catching up with KOOL-D himself and of course, Greenberger and
Weinberg for the Corona Yard introduction (since I'd never been there).... and seeing the Redbirds get coupled up at CY.
First trip: Greenberger and I on the 4:41 EXP TSQ 7
Return: Greenberger and I on the 5:17 LOC MAIN
2nd Round: Greenberger Choo Choo and I on the 6:04 EXP TSQ 7
((Stop-off at Corona Yard))
Return and engage with Kool-D and Co. at about 7:55 LOC
Reach TSQ at about 8:12 LOC
Return to Main: 8:45 EXP (Redbird out of Service)
Return to TSQ: 9:18
Arrive to VCP: 10:02
FOUR EXPRESS RUNS TO MAIN STREET!!
Thanks y'all guys for 1 hella good night out.
1SF9
This on Wednesday afternoon? The notes I have for that consist are (N) 9735-4 9309 9613-2 9608-9 9610-1 9595-4 (S).
Photos from today. Click the thumbnail to view all the photos.
And if the thumbnail don't work:
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/album59
I think that was the makeup of the set I rode today, leaving TMS SQ around 5:50PM. It ran express to Main St, then back to TMS SQ, then express to Main St, and yadda yadda yadda, was withdrawn at 8:45pm, as reported by Kool-D.
How about that-- a straight string of cars from 9608-9613.
(I didn't realize they were number order and out of consecutiveness).
Sad to see the lights go black at 8:45.
I hope to meet some of the intrepid Subtalkers who are toughing it out til the bitter, bitter end!
Survey saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaais.............yes! IMO!
Set #1: 9674 - North motor (I think, Greenberger will call me back to confirm, but this would mean the set was turned around since yesterday)
Set #2: 9734 - North motor
Set #1: 9617 - North motor (wrong car number listed in previous post)
Set #2: 9734 - North motor
Update: He is going to 103 St to get a photo, then ride the 'bird back to Times Sq.
And I rode it on the express back to Flushing with Bombardier. N-9617-9616-9316-9582-9583-9586-9587-9564-9565-9584-9585-S; taken OOS approx. 6:50 P.M. Second set was running local and was on the road later; cars were probably N-9734-9735-9308-9613-9612-9608-9609-9610-9611-9595-9594-S.
Hmm... makes you wonder if the last train will be in order ;)
Noticed that R-33s #9308, R-36wf's #9720-9721 and four other cars were stored at Corona Yard during the 5:00pm hour, plus one of our Subtalkers photographing the Manhattan-bound consist I riding in at Willets Point. Today (Friday 10/17/2003) at 7:25-7:28am, this same consist above was spotted entering and leaving Times Square, and I stepped inside a few minutes in #9309 just one more time at least.
-William A. Padron
["111th Street-Corona"]
Thanks. Additionally, our man with the new Treo 600 smartphone, skfny, took a photo today of north motor R-36WF 9734 at Main St at 6:50am, which was the beginning of the inbound run you saw arrive this morning. Click HERE to enter the album and then click on the thumbnail to view the larger image. Thanks skfny! Long live the redbirds!
-William A. Padron
["Queensboro Plaza"]
N
9617
9618
9316
9582
9583
9586
9587
9564
9565
9584
9585
S
which went to bed at 6:30, and
N
9736
9735
9309
9613
9612
9608
9609
9610
9611
9595
9594
S
which was still around at around 9PM when I left.
as well as
· Dennis Riga sighted in 9309
· Signal 1716-C X-22 at north end of southbound Flushing track at Queensboro Plaza had no lamps lit
· R40M train N 4548, 4549, 45X0, 45X1, 4538, 4539, 4532, 4533 S on the J
There was a seven car train on that track this morning: 9313-9721-20-9651-50-9635-34. 9318 and 9312 were also hanging around by themselves.
Race at Avenue M (118k)
9585 at Willets Point (81k)
9313, 9318, 9312(?) at Corona Yard (107k)
Mainline beauties at Corona Yard (104k)
R-62A's at 103rd Street (75k)
9585 and R-62A's at 103rd Street (73k)
9585 at 103rd Street (68k)
And two (large) videos (in DivX format):
9316 through Grand Central and 5th Avenue (11.2M)
9316 from 5th Avenue to Times Square (10.2M)
Watch the second video carefully and you'll see me passing the torch on to the next SubTalker.
...oh wait, I already said so.
:) :) :)
At least one set was on the road this morning, in local service: 9612-9613-9585-9584-9587-9586-9583-9582-9316-9616-9617. Provided here.
Looks like they shifted that set around a bit.
Uh oh, hopefully they didn't form one final good set out of the two sets that were left running until now...
Looks like this was it for the whole day. The set went to sleep during the mid-day, according to G1Ravage, but then came back out for the evening rush. Here are the pics. This train was still in service as of 8:00pm.
If it's any consolation, I saw a Manhattan-bound Redbird between 45 Rd and Hunters Point hortly before 9:00. In the yard were only four cars: 9312, 9313, and another pair in between 5 and 2 62As.
Wait, your scaring me. Didn't you say that one broke down today around 8:00? Does this mean there are now ZERO sets ready to roll tomorrow?
I assume the set that "broke down" eventually started moving again. By the time we got to 5 Av I saw a nb train moving (all nb trains from 45 Rd to GCT were NOT moving).
I know, I know. I can't help it though. It's been a crazy last few weeks. I'll be in the city tormorrow, but on a tight schedule, so no chance to do subway riding outside of where I need to go, and that won't bring me to the 7 line. The next time I will be in the city will be next week on Tuesday or Wednesday, but then a similar tight schedule. The first chance I will have to really get over to the 7 will be towards the end of next week, or the following week, when I know I will have time. But.....it appears this may be like arriving too late for a party, after everyone left. I'm hoping I'll get a chance, but the chances are getting dim.
It has been reported that the following cars left for the barge tonight:
S- 9611-9610-9609-9608-9674-9675-9650-9651-9720-9721 -N
I took a photo of them at 7:27PM tonight. By 9:00PM they were gone.
Here is the photo. 9721 is the first lit up car, after dark 9313. You will count 10 lit cars.
Doors: The End
---------------------------------------
this is the end
beautiful friend
this is the end
my only friend, the end
of our elaborate plans, the end
of everything that stands, the end
no safety or surprise, the end
i'll never look into your eyes...again
this is the end
beautiful friend
this is the end
my only friend, the end
it hurts to set you free
but you'll never follow me
the end of laughter and soft lies
the end of nights we tried to die
this is the end
---------------------------------------
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
It has been reported that the following cars left for the barge tonight: S- 9611-9610-9609-9608-9674-9675-9650-9651-9720-9721 -N
It's the last call of an end of an era...
...end bugle sound
In addition, Corona sent the following R62A's to line #1 passing thru 207YD around midnight: 1851 to 1855 and 1880 to 1876.
I do find this interesting. Thes trains, IINM originally were the 1's, and then they sent the 6's R62As to the 1. Now they are doing a reverse of this procedure, if the rumor of R62 or R62A's is true that there are R62/A on the 6 again. Can anyone confirm that there is a set on the 6? And if they are there, are they from the 1 or directly from the 7?
I find it interesting that they did the car switching in this manner. Why did they take the 6's R62A's and send them to the 1, and then take the 1's and send them to the 7? Why didn't they just send the 6's to the 7, and leave the 1 out of it. Now it seems they will reverse that move.
That's been true for quite some time. They have been coming off the 3.
What's strange is that the 7 and 1 are now swapping 62As.
Looks like this was it for the whole day. The set went to sleep during the mid-day, according to G1Ravage, but then came back out for the evening rush. Here are the pics. This train was still in service as of 8:00pm.
Uh-oh... this morning, 9617-9616-9316-9582-9583 were in the yard coupled to a 62A single. The other six cars were MIA.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
9564-9565-9316-9582-9583-9586-9587-9584-9585-9613-9612
At a little after 5 PM it was coming back to Flushing.
9617 (with 9616) was the Flushing motor. I didn't have time to get the other cars, but the 33wf single was 9316.
The money shot
Chuck Greene
OH HELL YES!!!
LAST photo of SECOND to LAST REDBIRD SET
BTW Chapter 11 choochoo is making me post this.
Chap11 RARELY makes a post *WITHOUT* car numbers.
Try harder next time, eh?
N-9564-9565-9316-9582-9583-9586-9587-9584-9585-9613-9612-S
As seen from the train, down in the yard were six redbirds lit up, plus possibly other redbirds that were dark.
Click the thumbnail to see photos of this train today.
Car numbers
So to clarify:
9564-9565-9316-9582-9583-9586-9587-9584-9585-9613-9612
was in service on Thursday, October 23, 2003.
Can you tell us WHEN you saw it in service? What direction was it heading? And if it was running local or express? Thank you.
-William A. Padron
["111th Street-Corona"]
Separately, I'm sad to report that 1southferry9 saw NO redbird today (Monday, October 27, 2003) during the evening rush, and also did not see the set out at Corona.
Nothing in 3 hours at TS... closest I got to a redbird tonight
was seeing the DOLLY at 207 on my way up to VCP.
I was nice and dry at TS, then took the obligatory 7 EXP to QBP
to get outdoors and check voicemails... (got dark HELLA FAST during
my 3 hours at TS)
REDBIRDS - BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS SERVED
---Sir Ronald of McDonald
#3 West End Jeff
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=592646
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. (And this is coming from someone who won't be able to make Monday's ceremony, so it really is bad news to me.)
Here is his full report:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=593332
I didn't have breakfast in the hotel lounge all week last week. After wolfing down a Granola bar, I was out the door at 7 o'clock every morning. And it paid off. I rode on the Redbirds on four of the five days I was in the city.
Rode on the Redbirds one final time. Hallelujah!
Rode around City Hall Loop.
Rode on an R-32 F train.
Saw 4572-4573 on the J, the cars used in The French Connection.
Rode on the R-62A of my high school graduation year, 1975.
I did miss a couple of rare opportunites to ride on trackage not normally used:
There was a GO on the Astoria line on 10/22 that had Ws and possibly Ns running express Astoria-bound.
When all 8th Ave. trains were rerouted down 6th Ave. after that tragic incident at 14th St., I could have bailed from that R-32 F and changed to an A or C and gone through the connecting switch south of W. 4th.
Riding on the Redbirds one last time made my whole week.
F|9564-9565-9309-9582-9583-9584-9585-9617-9616-9587-9586|M
F: Flushing
M: Manhattan
I'm curious about this too.
I'm sorry, no further information is available. This is a recording.
Opening Day for Light Rail Due Nov. 12
Mark
I knew that didn't sound right...
Mark
No. That's the date of their meeting. No votes will change based on an announced opening date of Dec 20 versus April 4.
Even so, I can't imagine a significant turnaround based on the date of opening the SNJLRTS.
Of course, I've been accused of lacking imagination.
I think I heard that the Peter Witt had a major malfunction and won't run again barring a serious rebuild.
Peter Witt with Kawasaki
"I can't promice I'll try, but I'll try to try."
LIGHT RAIL: Make It Part of the Debate with Other Transit Options
Although I'm pleasantly surprised to see any rail plan at all in a city dominated by the auto industry, I'm curious if Detroit might not be one of those cities that is large enough to really warrant a heavy subway or elevated system instead of light rail.
I have a feeling this is a very academic question, since one might expect the powers-that-be in The Motor City to be very anti-transit, and I'll be surprised if any rail transit at all every really gets built. But it's just something to think about.
Mark
Mark
>>>>>Rail service could spur business development and provide drivers with an attractive alternative to congested commutes. <<<<
JACK-POT! That's exactly what it will do. Just look across the river at the Hudson Bergen light rail. That rail system revitalized the entire Lafayette section of Jersey City and building of luxury condos and coops continues along the route into Pavonia. The Hudson Bergen Light rail attracted hundreds of millions of new investment along the oldest section of Jersey City that remained unused and abondoned for over 40 years. Try doing that with a bus? Don't make me laugh!
We may be dealing with a chicken-and-egg situation. Jersey City's redevelopment was underway well before the HHLR* opened, although it's entirely possible that developers were attracted by the prospect of light rail in the near future. And it's certainly helped with respect to the area's continued improvement.
* = I'll call it the HBLR if and when it ever gets to Bergen County, not before.
Photo Categories
New York City Subway
P.A.T.H.
Commuter Rail Category (NJ Transit, MNRR, LIRR and Amtrak (only between New Haven and Trenton for Amtrak))
Bus Category (NYCT Bus, LI Bus, NJ Transit Bus, Bee-Line, CT Transit, Suffolk County Transit.
Light Rail Category (NJ Light Rail)
For Those International Railbuffs:
International Rail Category (Any Rail System, Subway or Commuter anywhere outside the U.S.)
Here are the Rules for this Contest:
The Contest Begins Saturday October 18th, through Saturday November 22nd, that's 5 weeks to take photos. This is the photo taking period, no photos submitted in the Contest may be taken before or after those dates, and any photos submitted before or after the date will be thrown out. (Not Literally)
Photo Submission Period is between November 23rd and November 28th, this gives the film users time to develop their film process, choose and submit their photos.
November 29th-30th is the Judge's Day to Look Over the Photos and Determine the winners and 2nd and 3rd place runners up in the contest.
You can only submit 3 Photo's Per Category, because there are 5 categories meaning if you submit 3 photos for each category, you will submit 15 photos. Any photos over the first 3 attached will not be considered for the contest.
I Wish You All Well in Taking Your Photos, Prizes (if any) and More Information Will be Coming Soon.
I count six categories :)
Mark
Oh WAIT, you're not ALLOWED to take photos on PATH. Why the hell is it even a category??? Is Chris trying to condone illegal activities?
If you're gonna discriminate against people from out of New York, then forget it, it's a complete waste of time.
Now you can't even get the rules straight, good luck!
Did AP have anything to do with your secession?
Oh well, good luck with all your grand schemes now that you've lost all the federal funding, looks like another 70 years for the SAS, minimum.
Yay! Now Chicago is the first city, which fits, since their pizza is way better anyway!
And it doesn't take a nucular scientist to pronounce foilage.
I meant to clarify my last post...
Incognito
The White Plains Kid
In today's "am New York" free newspaper, there is a small blurb saying that the MNR & LIRR "CityTicket" program will run from Jan. 10 through the last weekend in June on a trial basis. That may be the new news, and why it was in today's paper. I did a search on Google News, and all it came up with was an article in NewsDay (which makes am New York) from Sept 26 that is no longer on their website.
Anyhow, as you probably know, the ticket is good for rides on weekends between stations in New York City. The best value looks to be between Penn Station or Flatbush Av to Rosedale. You get some nice speed on either ride, for about $2.00 less than the current off-peak ticket cost.
Will this usher in a new era of low-priced railfanning?
I haven't counted the number of Metro-North stations in the above categories.
robert
Beginning January 10th on Metro-North and Long Island Rail Road the new CityTicket fare of $2.50 will be available on weekends for one-way trips within the City.
MTA Chairman Peter S. Kalikow said, “This service is a result of the MTA Board’s desire to provide customers with additional affordable transportation options.”
CityTicket, which runs as a pilot program from the first weekend of January through the last weekend of June, provides customers the option of riding the commuter railroads within New York City on Saturday or Sunday for a $2.50 fare instead of the full off-peak fare.
“During the public hearings on the fare and toll increases earlier this year, Mayor Bloomberg and other elected officials asked if we could develop additional benefits for our riders,” said MTA Executive Director Katherine N. Lapp. “CityTicket and the new Balance Protection insurance for 30-day unlimited ride MetroCards are two programs that benefit customers and make mass transportation more affordable.”
CityTicket will be available at Metro-North stations including Woodlawn, Riverdale, Spuyten Duyvil, Marble Hill, University Heights, Morris Heights, Williams Bridge, Botanical Garden, Fordham, Tremont, Melrose, 125th Street, and Grand Central Terminal.
On the LIRR CityTicket will be available at Penn Station, Woodside, Forest Hills, Kew Gardens, Flushing-Main Street, Murray Hill, Broadway, Auburndale, Bayside, Douglaston, Little Neck, Jamaica, Hollis, Queens Village, Flatbush, Nostrand Avenue, East New York, Hunterspoint, St. Albans, Locust Manor, Rosedale and Laurelton.
Over the six-month trial period customers will be surveyed to assess usage, cost, revenue, and impacts on customer service. For more information on the MTA, customers can log on to www.mta.info.
What about Wakefield? According to The Map it appears to be within the Bronx. Or maybe there is no service there on weekends?
Probably an oversight. Wakefield is just as much inside the city as Little Neck, which is included.
Story in last Friday's Telegraph.
Story behind this all is:
About a year ago Virgin Trains decided to run approximately twice as many trains as before. The old trains were 9 car, the new Voyager trains are 4 (Class 220) or 5 (Class 221) cars long. Sounds like it should work mathematically, doesn't it?
Unfortunately, they failed to allow for the fact that double the number of trains on a better, simpler, more consistent network would stimulate demand. So they were left with a 50% demand surge and no-where to put people or their luggage. Therefore, they have spent the last year trying to surpress demand by cancelling trains, removing stops and entire branches and now it looks like baggage restrictions.
Meanwhile it looks like the Birmingham Carriage & Waggon Company is going to close down. Now wouldn't it be a great idea if Virgin Trains made an emergency order for 2 new carriages for each current Voyager train (bringing them up to 6 or 7 cars), and a few new trains whilst they're at it? Oh dear, that makes sense and might give us a vaguely functional railway... we can't have that...
Actually, that is only half the story. People are used to travelling on the old schedule, so the 'new' trains added were less crowded and the 'old' trains that ran approximately the old schedules were more crowded. This, plus the fact that the old trains were slightly larger than new trains, and the fact that Virgin was already overcrowded even before Operation Princess.
they have spent the last year trying to surpress demand by cancelling trains, removing stops and entire branches
That actually makes sense. They are focusing the available resources (i.e. rolling stock) on the market that generates the best return.
Now wouldn't it be a great idea if Virgin Trains made an emergency order for 2 new carriages for each current Voyager train (bringing them up to 6 or 7 cars), and a few new trains whilst they're at it?
VXC is a franchise -- this means they make money based on the amount of subsidy they're given. If the subsidy is fixed (or very close to being fixed), then unless the incremental train (i.e. the 6th or 7th cars) paid their capital money as well as operating costs entirely from fare revenues, they should not be purchased. Because of the ORCATS fare-allocation system, the income Virgin derives from adding additional carriages does not show up on their balance sheet. They therefore have no incentive to buy new trains (for zero revenue).
The whole idea of fare-allocation, to allow any passenger to travel on any train, is broken. In this country, if you buy a South Shore ticket, you cannot travel on a Metra train, and vice versa. If you buy an Amtrak ticket, you cannot travel on a NJ Transit train, and vice versa. Only a ass-backwards country will let you buy one ticket and travel on any train. It's like saying I can have a freight contract with CSX and then attach my two gons to an NS train just because the NS train happens to be going the same way.
AEM7
You are the master of understatement. The old trains were 9 carriages long. The new ones are 4 or 5 carriages long. That is a 50% reduction on an individual train.
VXC is a franchise etc
Which is a pretty crap way of running a railway,
The whole idea of fare-allocation, to allow any passenger to travel on any train, is broken.
No it's not. It's the franchising system itself that is broken - every train should have a BR logo on it and be operated by BR. That way is so much simpler and so much less top-heavy.
Only a ass-backwards country will let you buy one ticket and travel on any train. It's like saying I can have a freight contract with CSX and then attach my two gons to an NS train just because the NS train happens to be going the same way.
Only an ass-backwards country wouldn't have a single nationalised railway.
Tell me how you ensure accountability under a nationalized railway (oh by the way, and I have worked for a public-sector monopoly transportation provider, so I think I am qualified to speak on the issues of accountability under public sector).
Only an ass-backwards country wouldn't have a single nationalised railway.
For example, UK plc.
AEM7
By governing with an iron hand.
"Only an ass-backwards country wouldn't have a single nationalised railway."
For example, UK plc.
Yes, I am living in an ass-backwards country. But didn't you know that already?
Please explain. Specifically, explain who will ensure the accountability of the Iron Hand.
No-one. Accountability is a waste of money when it comes to leading a nation.
That's UNACCOUNTABLE!
AEM7
Yes - your point is?
When a government is unaccountable to its people, the best people from that country defect to a country where the government is accountable and unlikely to screw them over. That country is left to rot with people who are either too stupid to notice or too pathetic to do anything about it.
"The sick man of Europe" is once again.
AEM7
Utter codswallop.
You completely fail to differentiate between the popular will and the national good. Ever heard of demagogues?
Defections go both ways. Any government accountable to a majority of the people has a tendency to screw over minorities for the hell of it. Also they have the tendency to do things that are popular but wrong.
It is not the form of government that matters. There are good and bad governments of every description, accountability or lack thereof. The advantage of a democratically accountable system is its tendency neither to commit great evil or great good. It is an assured mediocrity, that appeals to man's natural conservatism.
Sounds like you might like what Farheed Zakaria (of Newsweek) has been saying. The title of his newest book is Illiberal Democracy. It's about how simply having elected leaders in countries with no democratic experience nor institutionalized safeguards to protect the rights of those outside the majority will lead not to freedom but tyranny. I haven't read the book myself, but what I've heard him say in interviews makes sense. After all, Hitler was given his dictatorial powers in a popular election, but no one would argue anyone was free under his rule.
Mark
I would tend to disagree with you. I would think that screwing over the minorities is a good thing, as long as I am not a minority. Actually in the institutionalized democracy we see in the United States, minorities are screwed over constantly, so long as they are not the "minorities" that are constitutionally defined as ones that you must not screw over (e.g., females, Jewish, Afro-Americans, Buddists, Disabled). To give you some examples of "minorities" that are constantly screwed over: Pagans, Mormons, cross-dressers, Autistic persons, the homeless.
And since I don't belong in those minority groups, I really don't see a reason why they shouldn't be screwed over. As long as they don't start an uprising and overthrow the government. Right now, I don't see an uprising by any of those groups anytime soon.
Also they have the tendency to do things that are popular but wrong.
Yes. The majority tends to be stupid. After all, the average IQ of the population is 100, and the average level of education is a college dropout (i.e., some college, but never fniished a Bachlor's degree).
However, I don't believe that a "leader" who is supposedly educated and supposedly tries to do what is right, does much better than the majority. The majority might do stupid things, but a "leader" does really really dumb things or really really clever things, depends on whose perspective you take. I'd rather be mediocre than run the risk of being completely wrong.
A point, which you failed to bring up (perhaps because you are part of the institution), is the systematic abuse and prejudice that non-whites, uneducated, and the poor living Britain are constantly subject to. The British leadership (and society) seems to think that it is wrong for marriages to occur across racial, socio-economic, educational, and other arbitrary divides in the society. The British society, and the British governmental system, is one defined by 'roles' -- perhaps a throwback from the feudal times. The reason that most have not been able to break out of their 'role' (and instead simply learning to be content in their role), is because of that alleged 'leadership' and that lack of popular accountability.
This is why the Boston T Party occured: some people like me were pissed off about playing their 'roles' and grew discontent, so went to the New World. I followed them some 300 years later.
Illiberal Democracy. It's about how simply having elected leaders in countries with no democratic experience nor institutionalized safeguards to protect the rights of those outside the majority will lead not to freedom but tyranny...
Yes, granted, but this was not the situation in Britain. A situation where there is apparent democracy but in fact is a cute little facade for a bunch of unaccountable bureaucrats is a far more dangerous situation than an allegedly illiberal democracy. Illiberal democracy may eventually lead to dictatorship, but a country with little accountability of elected leaders is already a dictatorship.
AEM7
To give you some examples of "minorities" that are constantly screwed over: Pagans, Mormons, cross-dressers, Autistic persons, the homeless... As long as they don't start an uprising and overthrow the government. Right now, I don't see an uprising by any of those groups anytime soon.
I don't claim to personally understand why each of those people deserve not to have their behaviour regulated, and told to adapt to the way the rest of the society functions. But I also believe that they should be left alone to do their own thing, as long as they don't interfere with the rest of the society.
Right now, there is no social consensus in the U.S. w.r.t. what to do with those people. Autism is still branded in many people's minds as "abnormal"; cross-dressers and Pagans still "weird", etc. etc. While I am content with the status quo, because it doesn't directly affect me, I do believe it should be changed -- but not until the rest of the population understand that they are just different, and they don't have to be told to be "normal".
AEM7
Apropos of that, it's been argued that holding a free election in a Muslim country is likely to mean One man, one vote, one time - in other words, fundamentalists are likely to win the election and will immediately end the experiment with democracy.
(and $87 Billion would have created a LOT of "wealth" in OUR country) ... don't mind me, I'm still waiting for that 87 cents a gallon Iraqi oil we were promised. And them JOBS. :)
Elsewhere, the leaders tend to supply a lot of material to the comics and the popular media.
Currently, in the Queen City of the Patapsco Drainage Basin, we have the following:
The boy mayor is in Jolly Ol' England, telling the Parliament all about his Believe program - and the Brits are buying it.
At home, in the Pothole Parliament, the local Ethics Commision is in a dither about the Council members who tend to employ siblings, wives, children and other relatives in various postions on the payroll. (This, BTW, has been SOP long before anybody involved today was even thought of.)
I'm not making any of this up. It's all 100 true and verified.
Just a quick question.
Does the forth estate in New York do what the press in Baltimore do?
The government is an almost regular supplier of humor.
We have a Gov who's pushing slots, the House speaker wants either none or all over the state (depends on which week it is), and the "forces of evil" aka the casino interest are circling over Annapolis like the vultures.
In the city we have our boy mayor (Martin O'Malley, our Irish rock star mayor), who has actually managed to get the pesky murder rate down from 300+ per year to the low 200's and high 100's. The City Council (who earned the "Pothole Parliament from Wally Orlinsky, who was Pres back in the 70's) keeps everybody entertained with the various stunts that seem to pop up like the periodic cicadas. (Brood X, which is the 17 year brood is due out in 2004, and the noise from the males is predicted to be deafening. We await spring.) The tax rate is a killer, but we tend to get what we pay for.
For the real comic factory, we need only to watch our Maryland Transit Administration, aka MTA Maryland. We have buses that toss tires like confetti, a light rail line that's run like the Toonerville Trolley, and nothing substantive since the early 90's.
Mark
Which makes it all the more puzzling that a company that is very good at running airlines (in Australia and, soon, in New Zealand too) is so incompetent at running trains. But then the Virgin Rail operation is half-owned by Stagecoach, which probably accounts for it (8-) .
Having said that, it ought also to be remembered that the British media are also hopeless at reporting anything to do with railways with any accuracy. I sometimes think that to get a National Union of Journalists union card, you must be able to demonstrate total ignorance about, and hostility to, railways - with a special exemption only for those working on the Railway Gazette. The media always paints the worst possible picture of the railways, exaggerating the bad and ignoring the good features. Good news is no news - "almost all trains running on time today" doesn't make headlines. Who would guess from the newspapers that since privatisation (which, like British James, I personally opposed), there have been significant service increases, and a large increase (around 20% overall) in patronage of the passenger railways in Britain? Overcrowding is a problem of success!
In fact, the new service on Virgin Cross-Country *is* a big improvement on the old (not that it was hard to improve on the worst mainline service in the UK). Of course, it was a serious miscalculation not to allow for the fact that a doubled frequency would increase traffic, but the really serious overcrowding occurs at the peak vacation times - and it is precisely at those times that people take along a lot of luggage. At other times, when more business users are travelling (such as me, occasionally), the Virgin Cross-Country trains are pretty full but not absurdly so.
AEM7 misunderstands the (admittedly whacky) franchising system that operates on the privatised railways of the UK. Train Operating Companies *do* have incentives to invest in new trains, and are doing so on quite a large scale. The ability to buy an open ticket that is valid on different companies and any train is a valued selling point of the British rail system as a whole, and people do generally understand that they are not guaranteed a seat on a train if they haven't reserved one. During the privatisation, a big effort was made to preserve this unified ticketing system, especially because many journeys require connecting between the services of different companies. Companies can additionally offer cheaper promotional fares that are confined to the services of that one company, if they judge that it is in their commercial interest to do so. This "discriminatory pricing" is similar to that practised by the very successful low-price airlines, and is an accepted marketing tool in today's environment.
Fytton misunderstands the (admittedly whacky) economics of the franchising system that operates on the privatized railways of the UK. Train Operating Companies are invited to bid on franchises where it is required to state a number of parameters such as: level of service, level of investment, level of expertise. In essence, the franchise is a business plan that prospective bidders are required to come up with. Once the contract is awarded, except in the very few cases of "cost-plus" contracts, the subsidy is generally fixed.
The fixed subsidy implies that any capital investment (i.e. rolling stock purchase) must have been factored into the original business plan that was submitted at the time of the bid. Once the subsidy is fixed, any additional capital investment above and beyond the contractual obligations must exceed the cost of capital based on farebox revenue alone. Given the system that allocates farebox revenues to operators (called the ORCATS system) is based on the number of trains that ran and not the number of carriages each train carries, the operator is offered no financial incentive either through the farebox or through government subsidy to relieve overcrowding conditions. In very few cases, severe overcrowding has been the subject of a franchise extension negotiation that compelled the franchisees to purchase additional carriages in return for extending the contract for a fixed period (usually two years). This was the case on the Midland mainline and on Chiltern Trains where additional trailers for class 170 Turbostar units were purchased.
Any investment that the operators are making in rolling stock is the result of the original business plan submitted at the time of bidding, and is government-subsidized investment. Other than that one-time offer, the franchisees have no incentive to invest in additional rolling stock. The franchisees have much incentive to redeploy the rolling stock to an extent that increases their train count per day, especialy given the current situation with little variable track access charges.
AEM7
(worked on a bid team for a franchise)
<whisper>They're Class 168s!</whisper>
You're right, now that I come to think of it. But Chiltern does have a fleet of 170's, and those were 4-car sets; the 168's were the three-car sets and the additional trailers were bought to make them up to four-car. I think. Care to correct me again?
AEM7
The 168/0s are 4 car. The 168/1s are 3 car. An added confusion is that some 168/1s have been changed to 2 cars so that others can be changed to 4 cars.
Really the 168/1s are so similar to the 170s that the separate Class numbers are just a little silly.
Let's hope for another doubling of service!
FAST (each hourly)
St Pancras, Leicester, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Wakefield, Leeds City, then stations via the Settle & Carlisle Line to Glasgow.
St Pancras, Leicester, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Doncaster, stations to Edinburgh Waverley.
St Pancras, Leicester, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Doncaster, Hull Paragon.
St Pancras, Leicester, Chesterfield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, Liverpool Lime St.
(Some of these might seem like duplication, but try getting from Leicester to Liverpool, Glasgow, Edinburgh or Hull!)
SLOW (each hourly)
Sheffield (via Derby)
Grimsby (via Nottingham and Lincoln)
Matlock (via Derby)
Derby (via Corby, Melton, Leicester and Ashby)
To shut up the whiners in Derby and Nottingham, give them a couple of Fast trains in the rush hour, with the segments joining at Loughborough!
Unfortunately, the newspapers do have a point about this increase being exceeded by the amount of money being poured into these privatised companies (almost 400% the subsidy BR used to get).
BR's track record (excuse the awful pun) was a lot better than Jarvis-Virgin-SRA's. BR completed the ECML modernisation on time and on budget. They were working on the WCML modernisation in 1994 when they were told to shelve it so BR could be privatised. Then the private companies make it seem like their idea while creating huge over-runs and profiteering at the nation's expense.
All the success that is often ascribed to privatisation could have been achieved several times over had the government funded BR as generously as it now funds these crooks.
In fact, the new service on Virgin Cross-Country *is* a big improvement on the old (not that it was hard to improve on the worst mainline service in the UK).
Exactly. They still haven't abolished the stupidest routing of all though. Birmingham New Street to Cardiff Central via Bristol Temple Meads. The Sprinter via Chepstow is quicker!
The Cross-Country network is still a total disaster. Out of the 15 largest cities in the UK, 4 are not served at all (Leicester, Hull, Bradford, Nottingham). A fifth, Liverpool (which is the 4th largest city in the UK - after London, Glasgow and Birmingham), stands to lose its service.
Cross-Country would do well to leave the South-Eastern quarter to radial lines out of London, so that trains can instead serve Leicester, Nottingham, Hull and Bradford. Perhaps some XC service to the South East could stay by routing some WCML trains via Olympia to Gatwick and Brighton and running some Class 158s, 168s or 170s out of Birmingham Moor St via Oxford, Reading, Guildford and Havant to Portsmouth Harbour.
but the really serious overcrowding occurs at the peak vacation times - and it is precisely at those times that people take along a lot of luggage.
In my experience, these trains really can't cope when they close the line between Derby and Birmingham on a Sunday, so the trains calls additionally at Leicester, accidentally becoming the first Leicester to Birmingham train of the day (at 1030!!!) and getting completely overloaded. In these circumstances, the seat reservation system seems frequently to malfunction.
This "discriminatory pricing" is similar to that practised by the very successful low-price airlines, and is an accepted marketing tool in today's environment.
It's disingenuous. It puts people off travelling by train if they know it's going to cost them extra for not fulfilling discriminations. Virgin's stated ambition of "a turn up and go railway" is a good one. If trains are full the answer is: run more trains.
Sort of.
It is probably better to think of Virgin as a brand that franchises itself out in different markets, with each franchise being jointly owned by Virgin Group who bring the brand to the party, and a subject expert that actually does the business.
For Virgin Trains, the partner is StageCoach (a major UK bus & train operator)
For Virgin Atlantic, the partner is Singapore Airlines
There is precious little on the ground integration between them that I can see (and I do use them both).
In my scenario, everything would be highly integrated with rail stations at the airports for easy transfers and one-ticket air and rail rides. I take it from your post that there isn't anything like that between Virgin's air and rail operations.
Mark
SNCF already does that with Air France, you can buy a ticket to Lyons via Paris with one of the spokes being an SNCF TGV. Similarly, you can buy an airline ticket to London Paddington from British Airways. You can buy a ticket to "Scotland" via Ryanair and Prestwick International Airport -- it's an extra five quid and you get to ride ScotRail trains for free.
As for Virgin's air and rail, Virgin Air and Virgin Rail does both serve Gatwick Airport. Otherwise, the two operators do not connect at any point. Sometimes you ask yourself why isn't it easier to just get off the plane and go to the BR counter and buy a ticket. The infrastructure simply isn't there for that kind of seamless service, which only works well if you have a station right at the airport where all the high-speed trains call. Manchester Airport, for example, has a Virgin Rail connexion but it's a DMU, not a long distance train, and Manchester Victoria (main station) is not served by airplanes, but served by many many Virgin Express trains. The seamless scenario will only work if every Virgin Express Train called at Manchester Airport, and there is a seamless way to get the baggage onto the trains without having to walk outside.
AEM7
Mark
If there is, it isn't very well publicised.
The only link I've ever noticed between different Virgin businesses is that the only cola you could get on a Virgin Train was Virgin Cola (yes, they are/were in the soda business too). Havn't tried buying one recently, so I'm not sure if that is still true.
On Virgin Atlantic flights, you listen to Virgin Music, you can also buy Virgin merchandize in their duty-free catalogue, including Virgin Vodka, and various other Virgin media. I forget what business Virgin is in, but there's a bunch of them, and they are more interconnected than you'd think.
Of course, there is the Virgin knock-off called "Stelios" who started by running EasyJet and now there is just about EasyEverything.
AEM7
That's almost as bad as the Krusty-brand eyewash fountain!
Mark
Possession of those items by persons other than TA Personel is still considered aillegal.
For how long does a car type have to be retired, before possession of keys would become legal?
To be specific an unauthorized person in possession of those items is considered in posession of burglers tools.
The keys and tools for later R class equipment STILL fit quite a number of equipment STILL in the current fleet. What I have however wouldn't fit or work properly.
Falls into the legal gray area of a locksmith, authorized to possess lock picking tools as a part of their "official function," versus an ordinary citizen possessing same. Or a person possessing a tire iron in the trunk of their car versus one possessing same in the backyard of a stranger's home. Or as Karl Mauldin might say, "PLEASE leave home without it." :)
Be forewarned, this is probably not the place to be asking about where to get those things.
-Stef
Sad story. No change in statistics, but crew members are getting access to counseling.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/15/nyregion/15TRAC.html
Maybe they should also learn proper grammar and spelling as part of their "punishment"... Buddy, how would you like it if your "famaly" (sic) was fined or punished for the actions of another family member? The family is already grieving over the senseless loss, do they really need to worry about your proposal? Why don't you think before you make such an asenine post!
Thank you, sir.
??
12-9's take a TREMENDOUS toll on those who happen to be up front when these happen, and it screws many of them up for life. MTA don't care though. :(
Even with chimes, conductors have to say "Stand clear of the closing doors, please."
AEM7 #902
Yep that be he.
In the name of the (father) Redbird, the (son) Railfan, and the holy Token.
CC is talking about Selkirk. This should be funny.
Uhh... I was referring to The Grand High Guru David Pirmann.
I think Unca Selkoik "knows his role"...
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/127152p-113732c.html
Welcome news...
I haven't been using the system on a regular basis since the fare went to $2.00 dollars and now I'm using a bicycle. I still use the system when I'm late or the weather is bad.
I never knew that someone fell to their death on the Platform. It doesn't surprise me as you practically had to walk on the ledge to get past the throngs of people.
When you say Broadway I think "7th Avenue"... (it's called Broadway uppa north
near 225-231-238-242)
And if you speak of Rector Street, it was re-done in 2001/2002.
Rector on the 1, that is...
I do not mean rector on the 7th Ave line , I mean Rector on the Broadway Line , or whatever you call the line that has the NR on it .
There are too many Broadways in New York all with subways . In Queens the line also runs over their Broadway and in Brooklyn there is a line also on Broadway .
Like this?
Brooklyn is another story.
wayne
The other stations, once the original tile is unearthed, will have to have it cleaned, patched and possibly reglazed. Some of the colors have lost their original brilliance. The trackside wall tile at 59th Street (which is fully visible) is in particular need of this treatment. Whilst they're at it, set up panel tile in the original motif for 86th Street. And make it look like 9th Avenue Lower Level with small tablets BELOW the frieze (cause it has vertical beams set in the tile), but use the lt/med green/blue/white/grey with yellow globes that the original tile uses.
wayne
wayne
Either you are blind or you choose to ignore the many exquisite recent renovations of subway stations, such as 81st Street-Museum of Natural History and 66th Street-Lincoln Center, among others.
The next time you ride the subway, instead of making redneck pig calls, look around you.
wayne
wayne
It is my expectation that when the Cortlandt Street IRT station is eventually restored, it will be finished as it was in 1917, complete with hexagonal ferryboat plaques, using the Herbert Dole design, and tablets using the original colors
wayne
Just to add, although, you are right, lots of old work was destroyed, Bowling Greens plight is not as bad as it seems. Yes, they are gone, but also remember, that there were NEVER mosaics on the wall platform side. Originally, Bowling Green was just the island platform and the little shuttle platform. The only mosaics were on either track wall. In the 60-70's it became necessary to add another platform, so one trackwall was COMPLETELY removed, mosaic tiles and all to carve out the wall platform. That was necessary due to crowding conditions, no choice but to get rid of the wall. Yeah, they are covered on the other remaining track wall, but the one side had to go no matter what. All is not lost either, I'm sure they are still underneath, just like on Broadway on the other side, so they could always remove the orange wall in a future renovation, but remember, there is nothing behind the wall on the wall platform side because they were never there to begin with. Rest assured though that I have utmost confidence in the MTA's recreation talents when/if the time comes....just look at my other post in this thread.
wayne
I don't think that's true. The majority of the recent station renovations are done very tastefully. In fact, many are better than they were when the stations first opened! In most cases, they have restored long covered mosaics, or added new ones/art, or like at Fulton and broad, made mosaics that should have been there from the beginning, but never were. None of the below are older than 10 years. These are just a small sample...click away on the thumbnails:
I also like the 33rd St/Lex renovation.. Very tastefully done for an old Contract one station:
If I ever go through there again [it's a really bizarre route: B60 from Bushwick Ave to Fulton St, then the Manhattan-bound C to Utica, which I'll only take if I just miss a Euclid-bound C (which only happens because they won't put a damn HEET on the Euclid-bound side), and then I transfer to a Queens-bound A], I'll take a look for myself, but I have NEVER seen those before...
The Same with the R160 order . Are they ordered , in production , and when will they be arriving .
The R-160 will start arriving on MTA property starting in 2006, and will look similar to the R-143.
Delivery is just a start anyway they will have some time in the barn and such before hitting the road.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The R160 will be here in 2006
And what the hell is a R142B?
Do you mean this door?
If that's what you mean, I have no idea what it's for, or where it goes. It wasn't there until they rebuilt the platform/station a few years ago. Obviously, they had to build something behind it as you are correct, it was just air space behind the platform before. They must've built a stairway or room or something at the edge of the platform there. I don't think it's a roon, because there is dayulight coming from under the windscreen, meaning there's open space behind it. It puzzles me too, because there is not much space between the platform and the buildings behind it for much (notice in the next photo).
But actually, by the way, where is "Larimore" Street?
Could THIS thread be the kicker to convert him to pouch tuna?
I just committed a ludicrous water spittake onto my keyboard
when I read the title of this thread...
I have to go drain out my keyboard... THANKS FOR THE LOL BRAH.
A Redbird has a thousand eyes
And the Day just one
But the light of the IRT dies
When Redbirds are done
Redbird Redbird burning bright
Leaving Flushing in the night
Guided by the T/O's hand
Sweeping down the line so grand
I think that I shall never see
A Redbird lovely as a tree
But I can tell you anyhow
I'll never ride a Redbird now
Seats are available here!
Photos (and a lot of opinion) courtesy of Rich Galiano
Came to city in 64
And now they are kicking you are out the door
You have served the city through and through
But now you are going into the deep blue
Youve seen the worlds fair and world series game
And you are everyones favorite subway train
But now the Flushing is your only line
And you are running on it one last time
So as your last revenue train leaves today
All us railfans have one thing to say
WE LOVE YOU REDBIRDS.
Dedicated to the Redbirds
1964-2003
Serving NYC's subway and el with glee
#3 West End Jeff
FAREWELL TO THE REDBIRDS!!
I was wondering the status of 9669 earlier tonite...
R33
R36
R32
R38
R40
R42
R44
R46
R62
R68
R142
R143
I like most of the current equipment well enough--I guess I'd say the R40Ms. I think the slants are a little absurd, but they're unique, so I hope they'll be around awhile.
til next time
They really do suck and blow.
I'd have to agree though. The doors are slow and they have a great tendency to develop slow doors over the other car classes. The bit of rust they have makes them noso attractive, and id for the led panel on the old style end. Also the ridges halfway up make them look older than they are (until I learned otherwise I always thought the R32s were newer).
til next time
I love the SMEE cars so I'd scrap those last in the following order (R40M, R42, R38, R40S and R32 last).
Mark
take the train to the plane
Were those the new Bangkok cars?
Mark
:)
NEW YORK (AP) - A Staten Island ferry was involved in an
accident Wednesday as it was docking, and city officials reported
extensive injuries.
Emergency workers were on the scene following the accident,
which occurred around 3:20 p.m. as the boat arrived on the Staten
Island end of its run across New York Harbor, said Mike Loughran, a
fire department spokesman.
Justin Girard, a witness to the accident, told NY1 that he saw
smoke and heard screams after the ferry crashed at the St. George's
Terminal. The front end of the ferry suffered extensive damage.
The Department of Transportation confirmed the accident, but
could provide nothing further.
Alert from the Downtown Alliance
There has been a serious collision on the Staten Island Ferry at the Staten Island Terminal. There are multiple injuries. ALL FERRY SERVICE IS SUSPENDED IN BOTH DIRECTIONS .
http://www.ny1.com/ny/NY1ToGo/Story/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=33997
One Killed, Dozens More Injured In Staten Island Ferry Crash
OCTOBER 15TH, 2003
At least one person has been killed and dozens more may be injured following an accident involving a Staten Island Ferry Wednesday afternoon in St. George.
FDNY officials say a S.I. Ferry returning from Manhattan either crashed into the ferry slip in Staten Island, or collided with another boat, while it tried to dock shortly before 3:30 p.m.
There is no word on the number of injuries, or on what caused the accident.
Emergency crews are on the scene, and there are reports that some ferry passengers are being rescued from the water.
NY1 will have more information on this breaking story as soon as it becomes available.
As New York's "newspaper of record," the Times should not have taken 45 minutes to get the item online. Other news sites such as CNN were quicker in posting it.
Michael
Washington, DC
Funny, my puppy says the same thing.
Yes... CNN repeatedly showed images of the wrong pier, misstated the ferry fleet size, showed a picture of an Austen-class boat as the ferry involved, and reported that the captian had gone home and committed suicide.
However the loss of one of the two most capacious boats will be a problem for quite some time.
Would you want to spend hours hearing about a 12 car pile-up in Eugene, OR?
*And to Pigs, what accident in Eugene, Oregon???
Since the city picks up the entire fare which must be in the tens of millions, the boats and docks are old and in disrepair. It's time to end the free ride and install the MetroCard to pay for repairs and updating all the equiptment which could have avoided this tragedy.
One look at the Staten Island Ferry and what comes into mind is a system that is outdated, used-up, dirty and dangerous. I'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner.
Check the Arcives as Hank Eisenstien posted the info several years ago.
The R44's have shed the grab irons and other FRA required stuff.
And maybe pigs will fly. Come on, you are talking multi-billion investments here, and how may of those has the NYC area had in recent years? Sad to say, no-one comes up with money on that scale just because of one accident.
Ever since the 50's there has been a general movement to not force isolated communities to pay $$ for ferry rides that connect to civilization. I tend to agree. There are positive social benefits to connecting the people of Statan Island free of charge to the rest of the state of NY. Its the least they could do after stealing them from New Jersey. If SI did become part of NJ I would have no problem with making the Kill crossings free and transferring the SIF and VNB to the PA.
The fact that it transports 70 thousand people a day means you have more responsibility than a cruise ship.
US Waterway charges $3.00 dollars each way and bicycles are a dollar extra. The boats are clean, fast and well maintained. One look inside the captains station shows modern to to date equiptment.
You can rest assure, that ferry will not be in service for many months. It's time to get rid of the free ride and put the money into the system where it's badly needed.
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
-Adam
(adam.moreira99@stjohns.edu)
My sympathies to the loved ones of those who lost their lives and my prayers are with the injured.
wayne
Rudy was nowhere near as popular at the end of his first term as he was at the end of his second. Some say the events of September 11, 2001 'saved' his political career.
How many injuries has this unsafe practice caused?
Also there should be fences on the sides of the boat to prevent anyone from jumping or getting pushed off.
How many have been pushed off? If anyone is intent on jumping, a fence can be climbed.
And the security suprsingly seems quite lax from the times I've been on the boat.
There are crew members and police. What more do you want, metal detectors? I believe such a proposal was rejected recently.
I do think fares should be charged...
Implement fares and watch ridership (and SIR fares) drop. The only possible benefit would be increased revenue from more express bus passengers and Verrazano bridge users.
they could pay for ferry improvements and subway access to SI (via Manhattan or Brooklyn).
What improvements are needed besides new boats (on order) and new terminals (under construction)? Why would NYCDOT fund new subway lines?
The Staten Island Ferry is very safe, I've ridden it for many years and I'm still alive!
" First of all, they allow people to wait in the front of the boat as it docks. I've done it a few times, and lemme tell you it dont feel safe to allow that."
Waiting and riding in the front of the boat is a tradition, especially when heading from SI to Manhattan. Tourists just love the skyline. Today's fatalities weren't in the front of the boat, but on the side that was lacerated open.
"Also there should be fences on the sides of the boat to prevent anyone from jumping or getting pushed off."
People never jump or get pushed through windows. Fences aren't needed.
"I do think fares should be charged, they could pay for ferry improvements and subway access to SI (via Manhattan or Brooklyn)."
I wouldn't charge a fare to ride the SI Ferry. If I were a SI resident, why should I pay to travel to other boroughs when people of other boroughs don't have to pay to leave their borough ?
Improvements are already taking place with the rebuilding of the Whitehall and St.Geroge terminals. Exactly what improvements do you mean ?
A rail link to the other boroughs would run into the billons. A rail link would take years to build BTW. This would include installing Metrocard entries at all stations and new fencing to enforce this. Resignaling of the Tottenville line, not cheap. The issue of what to do with the current SIR employess if they merge with NYCT.
Let's find out what really happened before we all do an impression of Chicken Little !
Bill "Newkirk"
Of course, in this case the fatalities did not occur on the stairs.
If you want to hear something stupid, listen to this. After the Bike New York event in May 2003, bikers and their bikes were taking the ferry back to Manhattan. I was on the top deck, and as we approached Whitehall, I moved over towards the stairs, but did not get on to the stairs. But many idiots actually carried their bikes onto and down the stairs WHILE THE FERRY WAS DOCKING! And since the line of people backs up, some people were stuck standing on the stairs, HOLDING THEIR BIKES, while the ferry docked! I was so sure we would take a small bump and people and bikes would come crashing down, with the bike gears and chains cutting people up like crazy. There were even parents telling their kids it was ok to start down the stairs. What IDIOTS. I was really disgusted. Thank goodness nothing happened, but the potential for serious injury was very real. Some people are complete morons.
It's possible that some of the people were newcomers to the ferry and did not realize that docking can be bumpy.
It MUST be soemthing to do with the water currents around New York City, as nobody else seems to make the rough, bumpy, hardlandings that are made by the SI Ferries. I'm sure having to turn into each slip doesn't make matters any easier for the ferry pilots either.
There are HUGE signs warning you not to be on the stairs! If you're gonna decide to disobey a warning sign, you should at least first have the knowledge to make an educated decision. Rookies should follow the rules.
The Ferry is not free, really....
You pay $4.00 to commute one way by ferry.
$2.00 bus or subway on the manhattan side,
and $2.00 for bus or train on the SI side.
Elias
My gawd, whether it be subway fares, commuter rail fares, bridge & tunnel tolls, etc., there is a contingent among some (not all) SubTalkers who absolutely love price increases!! Why, I don't know, however, maybe it's the cop in me, but I like my things either cheap or free.
Even if they were allowed to do so, I cannot imagine that many people would want to walk across the Verrazano Bridge given today's high winds and fairly low temperatures.
Interesting, 10 people injured, no reports of deaths. I hope everyone is OK.
NY Times Story
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/15/nyregion/15CND-AIRP.html?hp
Especially considering the sorry state of air travel. The airports aren't the cash cows that they were a few years ago, and in all likelihood never will be that way again, at least not for many years.
$500 Million will probably cover the cost of extending the PATH from Downtown Newark to Newark Airport's Rail link station.
$500 Million is probably just a down payment of a Fulton Street-JFK rail link if they go with the "New" East River tunnel plan to connect with the Atlantic Ave branch.
Fire Dept confirms 2 deaths.
Multiple injuries include loss of limbs.
Michael
Washington, DC
Robert
Robert
People ARE warned about this, this is a safety issue.
Your right about this. From what I heard, people where jumping into the Kill Van Kull. Folks, that water is so rough, if you're not an expert swimmer, it will pull you down fast.
Robert
wayne
YUP... that is EXACTLY what I thought when I heard about the accident. But the reall issue was something entirely different.
Many of the dead and injured WERE sitting.
Elias
Oh, and when people start to panic, they dont think about the strength of the waters in the area.
Believing in God is a necessary prerequisit to reading the NYCSubway.org board or riding on the Staten Island ferry. If you do not believe, then the religious enforcers will shoot you! Or carbomb you!
Peace. Just think he's paying them some sort of compliment with the regards of his God. I would not be offended in the least if a person of non-Abrahamic faith called down the blessings of his god of gods on me. Just because you don't happen to believe the same thing isn't a good reason to snub kind words.
CC LOCAL's post wasn't all that bad, but one of the responses to it belonged behind a pulpit.
if a man wants to speak on what he believes in, U HAVE NOT THE RIGHT TO SHUN OR STOP HIM. if u were me, u would understand.
60 years ago many people in this country that Jews were tools of satan and should be dealt with. 40 years ago many people believes that blacks were sub-human monsters worthy of contempt and scorn. I for one am glad that those who held those beliefs were SHUNED AND STOPED. When I see someone promoting a pro-Christian adgenda in a secular forum I am going to say something about it. Not because I disagree with it, but because it is wrong.
If a man is to say that all Jews are scum and must be destroyed, U HAVE NOT THE RIGHT TO SHUN OR STOP HIM.
If a man believes it is his duty by his god to kill all infidels and bring a worldwide theocracy, U HAVE NOT THE RIGHT TO SHUN OR STOP HIM.
If a man believes that the Earth is the center of the universe, and that everyone who disagrees must be burned at the stake, U HAVE NOT THE RIGHT TO SHUN OR STOP HIM.
The world is a far, far better place because people decided that odious beliefs must be SHUNNED AND STOPPED.
I am not trying to stop people's free worship however they choose, however I wish to stop the pollution of a secular board with offensive posts that marginalize people who do not share the predominant beliefs and take the events of a secular nation and turn them into religious events. Freedom of Religion isn't just for your religion.
Must be one hell of a hit to put a huge hole through that much steel.
ANyone know if the hull was breached or was it just the side above the waterline??
Which end is the front???
Does it have a little "F" on it like locomotives do?
I know it goes both ways just like an R-9... But surely it has a designated "A" end, yes?
Elias
The New York end.
For engine room purposes NY is considered ahead while Staten Island is considered astern. This means that the side closest to Brooklyn is the starboard side and it is the side which flies the national ensign. (The US flag is always flow to its own right.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
That seems to be a spatial answer rather than a hard answer.
You *could* turn the boat around and your statement would (could) still be correct.
But you cannot turn an R-9 around this way, for it still has an A end and a B end, and IIRC it has a hand brake only at one end.
Is there something internal to the boat that marks its front or back?
Elias
I did post your question on two maritime related message boards, one that I knew about, and one that popped up on google. Hopefully in a day or two we'll have an answer.
Here's where the questions are posted:
http://members.sailnet.com/messageboard/readmessage.cfm?Forum=9&Topic=8301
http://members.boardhost.com/martinsmepage/msg/802.html
There is a "No. 1 End" and a "No. 2 End". It does depend on where equipment is placed, most likely internally, etc., and the general public wouldn't notice it.
I've read in books on the SI Ferry that all boats are marked down in the engine rooms "Manhattan End" or "St. George End" so the crews down there have some reasonable idea which way they are going.
OUt in Seattle (sorry to keep making references in my posts to WSF, but I AM overly familiar with their fleet and operations) the boats ARE marked with the "No. 1 End" etc. Many of their boats are assigned to particular routes and do not get turned around. But some boats get turned around in the course of a day two or three times! (The Southworth-Vashon-Fauntleroy route is a prime example -- that stop in the middle on some trips, or skipping it on others, is the "culprit" for turning the boats. Basically, if one leaves Fauntleroy heading west (assuming No. 1 pilot house is forward) it noses into Vashon. It then BACKS out of the dock, and continutes forward to Southworth using the No. 2 pilot house as front. If it skips Vashon, as some trips do, No. 1 pilot house is into the dock at Southworth. The real fun is watching how cars on board are positioned due to the reversal of the boat! This also happens on their multiple-stop route through the San Juan Islands.
And then when I was up there this summer, I used one route frequently and it seemed the same boat was getting turned every day, though it was a two-terminal end-to-end run. I have no idea why they were turning that boat daily....
Elias: I like the world "spatial" meaning of or pertaining to space. My answer may not be spatial or hard but it is the right one.
In his book "The Staten Island Ferry" ,Geroge Hilton relates that a NY bound ferryboat is running ahead while when running to Staten Island it is going astern. This makes the NY end the 'de facto' bow and therefore the Brooklyn side of the ship is the starboard side which is the side from which the national flag is flown.
The boats are marked internally as to which end is whcih but if you ever ride and of the Barberi or Austin Class boats looks at the hatches. (Boat-talk for doors). They are clearly labeled NY End or SI End. On the Kennedy Class boats there are three vehicle gangways on the main deck with two passengers cabin on eith side. The men's cabin together with the men's room is always on the Jersey or port side of the vessel while the women's cabin is on the Brooklyn or starboard side of the vessel.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
LOL : )
I was in the NAVY before I became a monk.
I might not know my right from my left, but I *DO* know port and starboard!
The Ferry Boat *does* switch it's running lights with its movements, thus moving port and starboard, but the flag jack gives it away! That is waht makes one end of the boat the stern!
Now just find me a fo'casle and a chain locker, and we will be all set! : )
Well, I guess they thought that a cement pier can stop at boat at 40mph.
Top speed for that boat is 18 mph. What the wind was adding? Wh knows
Yes, all ferry boats I've been on reverse thrust at the last second to avoid bashing the dock. All of Washington State Ferries boats have standard screw propellors, not a Cycloidal prop among the entire fleet. So I have to admit that my only experience with a Cycloidal Prop was the Foss tug that had an open house in Seattle back in 1990 or so, and another Foss (or maybe it was Crowley, can't remember) cycloidal prop tug that pushed the USS Milius into Pier 90 back at the SeaFair cruises in the summer of '01, facinating to watch.
IIRC the Barbieri was two tandemly-mounted cycloidal props (as opposed to tugboats, which place them in the middle of the boat, side by side), and with something like that both of them would be at least spinning, if not neccesarily thrusting all the way across the harbor. I'm not quite sure if the pilot would reverse thrust with the back prop and leave the front in neutral to act as a bow thruster, or if he'd leave the rear prop in forward and reverse thrust with the front, since he'd need to maintain positive pressure on the dock to unload anyway. If this is true and the front cycloidal prop failed for whatever reason, then it's at least plausible that the fault doesn't lie with the captain or pilot, but with the boat.
http://members.surfeu.at/fprossegger/english/vsp-function.html
I couldn't find that link, I googled and googled for it. That really makes it a lot simpler.
With what I do for a living, you learn how to finess it a bit. Usually it isn't that easy - you normally have to feed it a lot of -'s to "-sales -compare -price -dealers -reviews" to get past the useless results ...
The first place I heard of this Voith-Schneider system was, on the Andrew Barberi in the early 1980's.
I had always thought it was a directable "jet", but recently there was a program about ships on the Discovery Channel that showed what this site also illustrates.
Amazing technology....
I'm still waiting for one of our "experts" here to note that the ship probably had a *VERY* capable skipper when it was berthing who ended up over-correcting for an INCREDIBLE wind gust that threw the ship off course, skipper COMPENSATED for it, suddenly it CEASED, and WHAM ... :(
I think in the end, if doppler wind gust recordings were available at the precise location, it will be determined eventually that no one was at fault, the winds across the bay overwhelmed any possible reaction time ... and directly caused the accident.
Is the terminal at 95th capable of handling all the extra trains?
Regards,
Jimmy
Riders, facing just sparse service from a couple dozen MTA lines unaffiliated with the unions and a handful of municipal operators that extended service to help handle the crush, scrambled for taxis, car- pooled or just stayed home as more than 2,000 MTA buses and its four train systems were idled.
The strike shut down the MTA's Metro Bus, Metro Red Line subway and its Blue, Green and Gold Line trains.
Metrolink's commuter trains continue to operate, as do buses run by adjacent communities and most are honoring MTA bus passes.
MTA plans to offer refunds at some point for its October bus pass holders.
MTA announced limited service through the 22 contract lines operated by companies not affiliated with the unions, as well as some beefed up service from nearby operators at Foothill Transit, Santa Monica and Long Beach.
Some 21,000 public school students in Los Angeles Unified rely on the MTA to get to class, and the district said high school attendance was down slightly.
The strike is expected to cost the region $4 million per day in lost productivity.
For workers on the picket lines during the last strike in 2000, each lost about $5,000 for the duration of that crippling 32- day walk out.
But workers on Tuesday said they had no choice but to go out on strike to preserve the health benefits that are a prized reason some joined the MTA.
"Believe me, I don't want to be here, but I have to,' said mechanic Val Villa on the picket line outside MTA headquarters downtown.
"We just want a fair shake,' said the 23-year employee. "I don't mind paying a little more, but let's be fair.
"It' OK for them to waste and throw money away. We're the ones that make the city move.'
MTA CEO Roger Snoble went before the media for a second day as the transit chief endures the first strike of his career saying he's not expecting a quick resolution.
"My hope is it would be settled very soon,' said Snoble, who has said the strike could last until the New Year. "I don't see it moving in that direction.'
ATU President Neil Silver urged MTA to get back to the bargaining table and "quit whining all over town.'
"For months the MTA has tried to get us to abandon our health care plan,' Silver said in a statement, adding it provides "lifesaving coverage' for workers.
Mayor James Hahn, who can't participate in some contract talks because of past campaign contributions from the union, offered to intervene and get a federal mediator.
"He is urging both sides to return to the table to see if we can get a fast resolution,' said Hanh's spokeswoman Julie Wong.
The MTA continued meeting with the bus drivers' United Transportation Union on Tuesday, but no talks were scheduled with the mechanics.
The MTA and mechanics are at odds over the employees health benefits and union-management of the financially troubled $16.8 million-per-year fund.
The MTA wants to take temporary control of the health benefits fund, which has been losing $400,000 monthly because the union pays more for benefits and overhead than it takes in from the MTA.
Mechanics, who on average earn $50,000 annually, pay nothing out of pocket each month for health coverage, and pay $3 for spouses to be on the plan and $6 for family plans benefits.
The union wants to boost MTA's share from $533 a month per employee to $705, and is also willing to increase employees' contributions to $70.
The MTA offered to increase its contribution to the plan to $634 monthly during the first year, and another 15 percent in years two and three of the three-year contract, which the union said was not enough.
The MTA also offered a $4 million one-time bailout of the fund, but wants temporary control of it auditors hired by MTA found the fund is wasting nearly $1 million a year in inefficiencies.
The union has disputed most of the audit's findings and refuses to turn over fund operations beyond the MTA's single seat on its board.
The MTA also offered wage increases that include no raise the first year followed by 2.5- percent increases in years two and three, which include workers' quarterly pay bumps.
However, the union said wages haven't been discussed Silver's only said they want a modest increase and said MTA's offer amounts to only 3 percent in combined actual increases.
Workers said they were prepared for the long haul, having saved up in preparation for what some were told could be a 90-day strike.
MAN THERE IS A WOLE LOT OF B.S. GOIN' ON'
My best hopes to those people out there.
I'm not quite sure realtime updates on the latest estimate are necessary, since this story will be plastered all over the news for the next couple of weeks.
wayne
Channel 7 (Eyewitless News) is identify a US Army Corp of Engineers Dreding Vessel as a "trawler." The fireboats Kevin C Kane (Marine 6) and Firefighter (Marine 9) are on the scene and the McKeam may be there as well.
Larry, RedbirdR33
wayne
Built 1937, retired 1982. Photo taken 08 February 2003.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think she was retired before 1982- I saw her tied up at Tompkinsville in 1975, looked to be out of action. 1982's when
Merrell class (Kolff, Verrazzano & Merrell) were retired.
Coming soon: GUY V. MOLINARI (M).
wayne
And in 1985 discovered her in that inlet near New Brunswick when driving on the NJ Turnpike. I did exit the turnpike and try to find a way to get closer, but wasn't able to find one.
The Barberi class boats are 310 feet from end to end.
When I lived in NYC I always thought the SI Ferries were the biggest things around....then I got out to the west coast and visited Seattle.
Biggest ones in Washington State Ferries' fleet are 460 feet length, about 75-80 feet width. Heck, they have EIGHT car lanes on the deck, with two two-lane ramps over the outer lanes....218 cars total capacity on each one of the ships!! (These are the Tacoma, Puyallup and Wenatchee).
Previously, the Spokane and Walla Walla were the largest US ferries at 440 feet, 206 car capacity (very similar deck/car ramp layout).
I think the smallest boat in service up at WSF holds 45 cars....
wayne
wayne
Thus reads the plaque aboard the boat.
wayne
Currently 14:35 PDT Im watching on CNN
Actually it was 14:32:43 PDT, according to the timestamp. But thanks for the update on what time it is.
wayne
Legendary Curtis High School football coach during the 1950s, '60s and '70s
Commission Date 1981 Length 300' 6"
Gross Tonnage 3335 Width 70'
Passengers 6000 Draft 20' 8"
Builder Equitable Shipyards Fuel Capacity 40,000
Engines GM 645e16 (X4) Propulsion Voith Schnieder
Other Barberi Class Boat
Samuel I. Newhouse
Publisher of the Advance from 1922-79.
Commission Date 1981 Length 300' 6"
Gross Tonnage 3335 Width 70'
Passengers 6000 Draft 20' 8"
Builder Equitable Shipyards Fuel Capacity 40,000
Engines GM 645e16 (X4) Propulsion Voith Schnieder
Kennedy Class Boats
John Fitzgerald Kennedy
U.S. president from 1961-63.
Commission Date 1965 Length 277'
Gross Tonnage 2109 Width 69'
Passengers 3500 Draft 19' 1"
Builder Levingston Shipbuilding Fuel Capacity 26,788
Engines GM EMD 567c16 (X4) Propulsion Diesel Electric
American Legion
To honor the national veterans' organization.
Commission Date 1965 Length 277'
Gross Tonnage 2109 Width 69'
Passengers 3500 Draft 19' 1"
Builder Levingston Shipbuilding Fuel Capacity 26,788
Engines GM EMD 567c16 (X4) Propulsion Diesel Electric
The Governor Herbert H. Lehman
Governor of New York from 1933-42.
Commission Date 1965 Length 277'
Gross Tonnage 2109 Width 69'
Passengers 3500 Draft 19' 1"
Builder Levingston Shipbuilding Fuel Capacity 26,788
Engines GM EMD 567c16 (X4) Propulsion Diesel Electric
Austen Class Boats
Alice Austen
Turn-of-the century pioneer photographer who was born in Rosebank
Commission Date 1986 Length 196' 10"
Gross Tonnage 500 Width 40' 3"
Passengers 1280 Draft 16'
Builder Derecktor Shipyard Fuel Capacity 9000
Engines Caterpillar (X2) Propulsion Voith Schnieder
John Noble
Renowned maritime artist who lived in St. George
Commission Date 1986 Length 196' 10"
Gross Tonnage 500 Width 40' 3"
Passengers 1280 Draft 16'
Builder Derecktor Shipyard Fuel Capacity 8800
Engines Caterpillar (X2) Propulsion Voith Schnieder
Two Class boats I don't have info on.
Cosgrove Class Boat
Micheal J. Cosgrove
NYC DOT uses this boat to transport remains to Potters field.
And the newest class:
Molinari Class
Guy V Molinari has yet to be put into service.
AL II will be the first one to be retired; and she's earned her rest. Let's hope they put her to good use. She deserves better than to be sunk, scraped, turned into a prison dorm or left high and dry.
Do you have the same info on Cornelius G. Kolff, Pvt. Joseph F. Merrell and Verrazano?
wayne
Wayne: PVT JOSEPH F MERRILL and CORNELIUS G KOLFF are now operated by the Department of Corrections and serve as floating dormitories at Rikers Island. The MERRILL was renamed VERNON C BAIN.
The Verrazzano is in very poor shape. She is tied up at one of the Brooklyn Marine Terminals. I saw her earlier this year when the DOT was still running the Bay Ridge Ferry.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Mark: Thanks for the update. One of the former Governor's Island Ferries is tied up on the Staten Island side I belive. ITs probably the PVT Nicholas Minue. Yhe other both the LT Samuel S Coursen appears to have been repainted and is still running. Of course I could have the two of them switched since they are nearly identical.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
American Legion (1926)
To honor the national veterans' organization.
Commission Date 1926 Length 251'
Gross Tonnage 2089 Width 46'
Passengers Draft 18'
Builder Staten Island SB Co. Mariners Harbor, N.Y. Fuel Capacity
Engines Double Compound Steam Engine 3500 HP Propulsion Direct Drive One Shaft Length of Ferry
Cornelius G. Kolff
Real estate developer and civic leader who helped found the Staten Island Chamber of Commerce.
Commission Date 1951 Length 269'
Gross Tonnage 2285 Width 69'
Passengers 2954 Draft 19'
Builder Bethlehem Steel Co. S.I.. New York Fuel Capacity
Engines Six Cylinder Skinner Unaflow 23" x 26" Propulsion Direct Drive One Shaft Length of Ferry
Verrazzano
First European explorer to pass through Narrows in 1524 (although he spelled his name with only one Z).
Commission Date 1951 Length 269'
Gross Tonnage 2285 Width 69'
Passengers 2954 Draft 19'
Builder Bethlehem Steel Co. S.I.. New York Fuel Capacity
Engines Six Cylinder Skinner Unaflow 23" x 26" Propulsion Direct Drive One Shaft Length of Ferry
Pvt. Joseph F. Merrell
Only Staten Islander to win the Medal of Honor during World War II. He hailed from West Brighton.
Commission Date 1951 Length 269'
Gross Tonnage 2285 Width 69'
Passengers 2954 Draft 19'
Builder Bethlehem Steel Co. S.I.. New York Fuel Capacity
Engines Six Cylinder Skinner Unaflow 23" x 26" Propulsion Direct Drive One Shaft Length of Ferry
Miss New York
Commission Date 1937 Length 252'
Gross Tonnage 2126 Width 48'
Passengers 2328 / 24 cars Draft 18'
Builder United Dry Dock, Inc., Mariners Harbor, N.Y. Fuel Capacity
Engines Double Compound Steam Engine 4000 HP Propulsion Direct Drive One Shaft Length of Ferry
Mary Murray
Prominent Revolutionary War figure who delayed British Gen. William Howe by wining and dining him at her Midtown Manhattan estate as American troops made their way uptown with much-needed supplies and reinforcements for Gen. George Washington and the Continental Army, who were holed up in Harlem Heights.
Commission Date 1937 Length 252'
Gross Tonnage 2126 Width 48'
Passengers 2328 / 24 cars Draft 18'
Builder United Dry Dock, Inc., Mariners Harbor, N.Y. Fuel Capacity
Engines Double Compound Steam Engine 4000 HP Propulsion Direct Drive One Shaft Length of Ferry
Gold Star Mother
To honor mothers who lost sons during World War I and signified it by hanging gold stars in thier windows.
Commission Date 1937 Length 252'
Gross Tonnage 2126 Width 48'
Passengers 2328 / 24 cars Draft 18'
Builder United Dry Dock, Inc., Mariners Harbor, N.Y. Fuel Capacity
Engines Double Compound Steam Engine 4000 HP Propulsion Direct Drive One Shaft Length of Ferry
Knickerbocker
Commission Date 1931 Length 252'
Gross Tonnage 2029 Width 46'
Passengers Draft 18'
Builder Staten Island SB Co. Mariners Harbor, N.Y. Fuel Capacity
Engines Double Compound Steam Engine 3500 HP Propulsion Direct Drive One Shaft Length of Ferry
Thompkinsville
Commission Date 1930 Length 252'
Gross Tonnage 2029 Width 46'
Passengers Draft 18'
Builder Staten Island SB Co. Mariners Harbor, N.Y. Fuel Capacity
Engines Double Compound Steam Engine 3500 HP Propulsion Direct Drive One Shaft Lenght of Ferry
Dongan Hills
Commission Date 1929 Length 252'
Gross Tonnage 2029 Width 46'
Passengers Draft 18'
Builder Staten Island SB Co. Mariners Harbor, N.Y. Fuel Capacity
Engines Double Compound Steam Engine 3500 HP Propulsion Direct Drive One Shaft Length of Ferry
President Roosevelt
Named for Theodore Roosevelt, U.S. president from 1901-09.
Commission Date 1921 Length 241'
Gross Tonnage 1907 Width 46'
Passengers Draft 18'
Builder Staten Island SB Co. Mariners Harbor, N.Y. Fuel Capacity
Engines Double Compound Steam Engine 3500 HP Propulsion Direct Drive One Shaft Length of Ferry
Mayor Gaynor
Commission Date 1914 Length 210'
Gross Tonnage 1009 Width 45'
Passengers Draft 18'
Builder New York SB Co. Camden, N.J. Fuel Capacity
Engines Four Cyl. Triple Exp. Steam 1950 HP Propulsion Direct Drive One Shaft Length of Ferry
Richmond
Commission Date 1905 Length 232'
Gross Tonnage 2006 Width 46'
Passengers Draft 18'
Builder Burlee Dry Dock, Co. Port Richmond, N.Y. Fuel Capacity
Engines Double Compound Steam Engine 3500 HP Propulsion Direct Drive One Shaft Length of Ferry
Queens/Brooklyn/Bronx/Manhattan (sorry Manhattan Class Boats all 1905)
Commission Date 1905 Length 246'
Gross Tonnage 1954 Width 46'
Passengers Draft 18'
Builder Maryland Steel Co. Sparrows Point, Md. Fuel Capacity
Engines Double Compound Steam Engine 3500 HP Propulsion Direct Drive One Shaft Length of Ferry
Stapleton Class (Stapleton and Castelton both 1888)
Stapleton
Commission Date 1888 Length 225'
Gross Tonnage 1592 Width 61'
Passengers Draft 14'
Builder Columbian Iron Works. Baltimore Fuel Capacity
Engines Inc. Compound Steam Engine 1200 HP Propulsion Side Wheel
wayne
The first of the 3 new will be built by fall 2003 by the Manitowoc Marine Group
These ferries will carry 4440 passengers and 30 vehicles each.
One of the design goals is to capture the "Old Style" Ferry appearance and ambiance.
Like the old car boats there will be outside seating areas.
These new Ferries have been designed to meet the intent of The Americans with Disabilities Act.
There will be a seating area on the hurricane deck between the pilot houses.
Each new boat has a price tag of about $40,000,000.00
I thought the SI ferry had stopped carrying cars. And by the describtions posted here, neither of the last two classes of ferries built have a vehicle capacity quoted.
What have I missed?.
The ferry only stopped carrying cars because of Sept. 11th. Originally I thought it was because it would be pointless, what with no driving allowed downtown anyway. Clearly there are other reasons since it's 2 years later, but since I don't know for sure what the reasons are, just heresay, I'm not going to bother.
The new class was ordered and designed *BEFORE* September 11th, to replace the Kennedy class. Since the only money made on the ferries is in food service and transporting motor vehicles and bikes, and people would complain at the loss of the cheapest way to get your car to manhattan, it'd be insane to replace car-carrying boats with more passenger-only ones. After all, they have enough of those floating around...
I certainly travelled occassionally on the ferries prior to September 11th, and I don't recall seeing cars being (un)loaded. Either I was unobservant, or happened to get the wrong boat.
If only one of the three classes carried cars, that must have required some careful scheduling. What did they do, use Kennedy and Barberi classes on alternate sailings?.
Amazingly enough, no. In the hour from 5;00pm to 6:00pm, they would normally have a Kennedy at 5:00, the two Barberis at 5:15 and 5:30 and the two Kennedys at 5:45 and 6:00 (the 6:00pm boat being the same one that made the 5:00pm sailing).
thanks
Chuck
TrackstarCH is my sn
Some Contract Drivers Join MTA Strike
Union Says It Wants To Maintain Health Coverage Levels
MTA Chair: Mechanics Already Generously Compensated
Oct 15, 2003 11:13 am US/Pacific
LOS ANGELES (CBS) Los Angeles-area bus riders, already hobbled by the strike spearheaded by MTA mechanics, were feeling the effects Wednesday as more drivers walked off their jobs.
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which runs 22 relatively low-volume bus lines through contracts with other transit operators, said 12 of those lines will now cease to operate as a result of the new strike, affecting 10,000-12,000 riders.
"When it rains, it pours," MTA spokesman Marc Littman told reporters. "This is another blow for commuters."
The MTA had counted on the so-called contract lines to offset to some extent the impact of the strike by its mechanics, transit officials said.
The California Highway Patrol reported that, apparently as a result of the MTA strike, the volume of road traffic continues to increase.
"We don't have any hard and fast numbers, but the flow of traffic is actually heavier for the second day now, compared to before the strike began," said California Highway Patrol Officer John Seumanutafa.
The new strike, which began at 1 a.m., is being carried out by some 250 employees of a Compton company called First Transit. The drivers, who operate lines running from Compton to such areas as San Pedro, Palos Verdes and Pasadena, are represented by Local 572 of the Teamsters union.
"We know that this affects the public. They're working class people, too," said Miguel Lopez, a placard-carrying First Transit striker. "But our fight is their fight."
First Transit employees receive a starting salary of $8.15 and want to raise that to $10, according to local television reports.
The MTA strike, meanwhile, entered its second day today amid predictions that it would last at least several days. One of the more optimistic predictions was from Los Angeles County Supervisor Yvonne Brathwaite Burke, who said the strike should be over within 10 days.
The strike against the MTA by some 2,000 mechanics belonging to the Amalgamated Transit Union began yesterday, with members of four other unions -- including bus and train operators as well as clerks -- vowing to honor the ATU picket lines.
The action forced hundreds of thousands of Southlanders to scramble to get to work, hitchhiking, using taxis or relying on the goodwill of Good Samaritans with cars.
The MTA, which says it serves 500,000 riders, estimated that the action is costing Los Angeles County $4 million a day in lost sales and productivity.
No new talks were scheduled as of this morning.
"I have no reason for optimism that it's going to be a short strike," Neil Silver, president of ATU Local 1277, told the Los Angeles Times.
Supervisor Burke was somewhat more optimistic, telling The Times that she believes the labor dispute can be resolved and that the strike "should be over in 10 days or less."
Supervisor Zev Yaroslavsky, who is also the current chairman of the MTA board, says he is outraged by the strike since MTA mechanics "average $50,000 or more a year in salary" and 21 "make over $100,000 a year."
"They have a health plan that is second to none. They pay nothing for health care. The MTA subsidizes all of our employees' health care, 100 percent," he said.
"They can retire after 23 years of service at a full pension. So you come to work for us at 21 years old, you leave at 44 with a full pension. And, for this, they're holding the whole county hostage with a strike. It's outrageous."
Silver said that the strike "is a tragedy," but he blamed it on the MTA.
"For months, the MTA has tried to get us to abandon our health coverage for our members and retirees," Silver said in a written statement.
"We will not abandon this life-saving coverage," Silver said. "If the MTA wants to change its position, it should call the state mediator and we will meet when he calls us."
The MTA recommended calling (800) COMMUTE to find out what other municipal transit operators can provide. Commuters also can get information at www.mta.net or www.ridematch.info.
The MTA also offered service on 23 "low-volume" bus lines countywide, using non-union contract drivers. The service includes Line 888, which parallels the Metro Red Line subway.
Metrolink trains are not be affected by the MTA work stoppage because they are operated by another agency, the Southern California Regional Rail Authority.
The sticking point in contract negotiations is a health insurance trust fund the transit agency pays into and the union manages. The ATU wants the MTA to contribute more to cover the steeply rising cost of medical care.
An independent audit showed the union has mismanaged the nearly bankrupt trust fund, making the agency unwilling to contribute more money without getting a managerial stake, said Littman, the MTA spokesman.
From July 1, 2000 to June 30, the union spent $1.3 million administering the health trust fund, according to the audit. The auditors sought to get "access to documentation supporting" those expenses, but were denied by the union, according to the report.
In May, the MTA got an employee on the trust fund's advisory council, but he is only one of five members so his influence is limited, Littman said.
According to a communication that ATU Local 1277 sent to its members, the MTA offer would require mechanics to contribute about $70 a month for health care. And retired employees would have their benefits slashed.
The MTA has little to offer the mechanics this year because state budgetary problems are having a negative fiscal impact on the agency, officials said. However, the MTA is offering a three-year contract with a 2 1/2 percent wage increase in the second and third years, Yaroslavsky said.
And the MTA's contribution to health benefits would increase 19 percent this year and 15 percent for each of the next two years, Yaroslavsky said.
The ferry was blown sideways at the last minutes, no time to do anything but simply crash. Ferry hit corner of cement pier, riped off the entire left side of the lower level.
Looked as if ferry was going full speed and continued to do so until impact with first pier.
14 confirmed dead
Passengers were given no warning, happened all in an instant.
Lost limbs, broken bones, hypothermia, and many more injuries.
Lower level of Verazano closed to public. Emergency vehicles and city buses only.
Ferry tried to dock at the wrong slip
The Merrell class boats have been decomissioned for quite some time.
No it was not.
"The ferry's crew will be interviewed and tested for drugs and alcohol, Bloomberg said. The ship's captain fled the scene and was tracked down by police at his Staten Island home, said a high-ranking police source speaking on condition of anonymity."
Just like Edward Luciano.
Arti
It would make more sense to divert selected W trains down the express to 59th, and then (perhaps express on the local, if not blocked by a local) to 86th and 95th, so passengers from Midtown could have a quick trip to the shuttle buses.
Thanks in Advance
That's right kids, it was Jet-Train Demo Day at Tampa's beautiful(now I know it is, never been there before) Union Station. There were millions of photo-ops there. Nothing working though(the AmBUS was there and not a train). But there were museum(??) cars on loan from pullman coaches and other things from Henry Plants era I will get later. Now I see why some people in the newspaper and in the city commision want to make it the intermodel center of Tampa.
Okey anyway, Bombardier has been traveling to Miami, Orlando, and Tampa to get public support up to build the FHSR rail with great #'s from the public attending. They will be doing demo runs somewhere next week to help the commision decide what technology to choose.
So I waited in line and got the tour of the engine, and sat in the motormans seat. It's more comfortable than sitting in a plane seat, had touch screens, cruise control with automatic adjustments for speed restrictions, etc. Got a wealth of information and I liked it.
I'll have pics coming soon but for now here is the brochure and stuff scanned. also note that stupid me forgot to have someone take his picture while he was sitting at the controls.
http://techno79.20m.com/FOX/FOX.html
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Maybe if you drop it off a cargo airplane in flight over Staten Island.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I think you owe Roy an apology.
If God was with anyone, they would still be alive.
Any force that deliberately causes such a thing is PROFOUNDLY evil, and must be defeated at all costs.
Any force that deliberately causes such a thing is PROFOUNDLY evil, and must be defeated at all costs.
That's just, like, your opinion, maaaan.
Let me know how that war against G-d is going in say, 98 years (assuming, for argument's sake, that you are 22 y.o. right now).
All right. It's my opinion that anything that promotes human suffering is wrong.
Let me know how that war against G-d is going in say, 98 years (assuming, for argument's sake, that you are 22 y.o. right now).
As I do not believe in any deities, I would not have to fight such a war.
If the world was to be destroyed tomorrow, I'd feel far better that it was destroyed by man than by nature.
--Z--
I gotta admit that until we have big 2001-type space colonies, or hollowed out asteroids and planets (or moons as the case may be) colonized, death sounds pretty good compared to the alternatives of overcrowding, starvation and famine. We are not mature enough, socially, technically, or even mentally to handle life without death, at some point we will be, but many many challenges in all three categories must first be met. For one we cannot have a group of people to whom much of the populace listens to preaching the sins of birth control when 300 million babies are being born every day with no die off to counteract that. Also it would kinda suck if they released the Immortality Pill at such an extreme price that only the rich could afford it, it would create a very literal class distinction between the nearly-immortal upper people and the very-mortal lower and middle classes. Certainly people in the middle class would push to get the pill, no matter if they would be bankrupted by it. At the same time the people too poor to get the pill would certainly rise up against the immortals.
It's really not hard to imagine either of these happening, heck I could even see some person attempting to sell placebos for the Immortality Pill, this is Amer-uh-ka, home to Enron, Ron Popeil, and every snake oil salesman who cannot hail from an Ottoman Empire bazaar.
--Z--
And don't dis Ron Popeil, he invented the technology to keep human heads alive in jars. •-)
Abbey Normal???
Yet it is only through suffering that we might know joy.
--Z--
But what would people do if that subway running to the island were to suffer a derailment? The worst case scenario arguably would be a derailment in the tunnel under the narrows (assuming that's where it'd be) resulting in fire and loss of life, which could close the subway for days or weeks on end. I'm not sure, but I think the subway may still be responsible for more death than the ferry, and this was the first fatality on the ferry that was really the fault of SI Ferry in probably more than 50 years. If the ferries provide safe service, then perhaps it's best to leave well enough alone. You guys have your hands full trying to get the SAS built, let alone trying to forge SI into the NYCTA.
If the problem is speed, then perhaps somebody can inquire about the BC Ferries Pacificats, IIRC they're still up for sale, and it's not like New Yorkers are used to the same level of interior appointments that the BC Ferries patrons are used to, right?
But can they properly dock at the terminal, or does the terminal need a new dock to accomidate them?
BTW when was the last time there was a derailment in NY anywhere that closed the subways for days or weeks on end?
I say just run 4 commuter rail lines from SI:
1. St. George to someplace in central or lower NJ via the North shore Line and the AK lift bridge
2. St. George to Hoboken via North Shore line and Bayonne Bridge, then under HBLR, then connect to old CNJ line(i think it's CNJ)
3. St. George to Lower Manhatten via NY harbor tunnel, the Gowanus expressway(the expressway would be made into a tunnel), then the new east river tunnel to Downtown
4. St. George to Jamaica and maybe other points further east via NY harbor tunnel and Bay Ridge line.
That is a perfect way, but not the only way. They can also go via AK lift bridge and then NJT into Midtown.
First at least ten people are reported dead and many injured the exact number unknown.
Have we heard from any of the sub-talkers on Staten Island?
Are they all okay?
Some died today, many were injured and many more frightened. Lets keep this in perspective.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Very unfortunate incident
wayne
American Legion II it was.
wayne
Wayne: Its important to note that the Barberi was able to dock under her own power and its seems that most of the passengers disembarked on their own. Most of those disembarking would have been on the second or third decks anyway since these lead directly to the ramps into the ferry terminal. I am not trying to minimize the accident in the least but the fact that the boat remained seaworthy and did not sink prevented the accident from becoming far worse than it already was.
Larry, RedbirdR33
wayne
They are certainly going to have problems making service with a four-boat schedule and only four large boats to make it. And yes, you're right. They can't run the AUSTEN and NOBLE on rush hour trips - 1288 passengers just doesn't cut it!
Sad sight on the TV, seeing the Barberi heading to Navy Yard, escorted by tugs and other craft. She did not look like she was under her own steam.
It is indeed too bad that they did not keep at least one of the Merrell class boats as a spare. Mary Murray, although last used in the 1960s, was still available as a spare into the 1970s.
wayne
wayne
wayne
Elias
Have you considered the possibilities that (a) the NTSB will hold it for quite a while during its investigation and (b) an injured party will subpoena it (in its present state) as evidence in a lawsuit? Either of these could prevent its being repaired as quickly as the normal logistics of ship repair would otherwise permit.
NOPE.
wayne
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/8471.htm
wayne
Either its a VERY SMALL boat, or THEY WRE LYING AGAIN!
The article probably used "doomed" in the sense that people died aboard the ferry.
It will be interesting to see if the three new boats will carry autos or not. My feeling is they won't. Also my bet is all existing boats will eventually carry event recorders due to the recent accident.
Bill "Newkirk"
Didn't the Kolf, Verrazano and Merrill class boats have a saloon deck that went the entire lenght of the boat, where the American Legion II, Lehman and JFK have partial saloon decks ?
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
- The men's room was moved from the outer side (i.e. next to the glass - requiring frosted glass on the one part of the boat) to the inner side (on the bulkhead separating the Men's Cabin from the car ramps)
- The Saloon Deck (2nd deck) outer area was cut back to just the area at the ends; on the MERRILL class, this area went on the sides back about 1/8th the length of the boat.
- The Bridge Deck did not have the forward areas outside
Chip
You say cars are no longer transported?
Is this ban permanent.
A well placed car bomb on a loaded ferry could kill more than the WTC bombs.
Elias
You say cars are no longer transported? Is this ban permanent.
No one really knows. According to the randomly appearing SI Advance articles on this topic, NYC DOT says car service will resume when the NYPD says it's OK. NYPD spokespeople say they are waiting for the Coast Guard to sign off on it, while the CG pins the delays on NYPD And DOT (picture three people standing around, each one pointing at the other two, saying 'it's HIS fault'.) Of course, that's when DOT doesn't put the lack of car service on the two terminal reconstructions.
A well placed car bomb on a loaded ferry could kill more than the WTC bombs.
Injure, yes. Kill, I don't think so. The current car-capable boats have a capacity of 40 cars and about 3000 to 3100 passengers (somebody posted the stats in another thread). To do the kind of damage you're implying, you would need something that would almost instantaneously vaporize the entire boat. Anything less and there would be a fair number of survivors.
In most of the harbor, if one of the car boats were to sink, the top deck (and a goodly section of the middle deck) would remain above water; any fires caused by an explosion would be below the water.
When she was hit by the freighter, they turned her around. Strangely, they only painted the area damaged - so there was this freshly painted area on the side of the boat so that you could tell exactly where she was hit.
Most of the damage appears to be cosmetic. If they are agressive in their repair schedule, then three months tops.
Elias
I don't think crumpled I-beams are cosmetic.
Still, you are probably right that the core structure of the boat is fine. But some of the structure of the enclosure for people seems to have been destroyed.
wayne.
Fortunate indeed for Barberi that no damage occurred below the water line.
wayne
My poll results are in! The subtalkers have spoken on which subway car they would like to be scrapped rather than the R33s and R36s. (Or if you want them to be scrapped thats ok!) Here are the subway cars that got votes but will not be scrapped.
R40
R142
R143
R44
R68
R33
And the next train car to be sent to the scrap yards is...
The R38!!!!
If only the R38s would be scrapped instead of the R33s and R36s.
Note I do not want any train car to be scrapped. :-)
Goodnight
The R38!!!!"
WAIT A MINUTE !...... Our heads are still spinning with the R-142 on the #7 rumor !!
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
til next time
Sorry... they don't meet up again 'til Brooklyn ;)
Once, I was on a 9 sent express due to a long gap between trains (15 minutes) and when we arrived at 72nd Street, not only was there a 5 on the local track, it was made up of the Pelham R62As used on the late night shuttle. Needless to say, many people were very confused.
Wayne
The day after Thanksgiving 2001, I caught a 2 local of R-142's at 86th, transferred to a 2 express of R-33's at 72nd, and just missed a connection to the aforementioned 5 local of R-62A's at 42nd. How's that for confusing?
And it did come from the Bronx, just a different part.
I think it shouldn't be any matter whether R40s should be considered weekday fleet or weekend fleet. What matter the most there will be tons of slants and R68 available for any line use. We are expecting Q diamond give up most of slant just as B and W is expected to give up most of R68. The main question is what fleet will be assign to B N and W. Now I taking you theory as consideration, if R40S is just for weekday use, then W and B will have greater chance to get slants since the B W will be a weekday-partime only lines in 2004. About the Q diamond, I doubt this line won't have enough slants to split for B and W together. Unless other line have to contribute some of their slants. Who's gonna do the extra slant contribution, certainly I doubt that N will be the candidate. Currently only N and Q diamond have most of the slants in their bags. Say that its Feb 2004 and MannyB is full opened, B got most of the slants from Q diamond, and W hasn't yet gotten slant, according to the official 2004 car assignment sheet, W is too also expected slants, Q-diamond ALREADY gave most it slants to B and there isn't any left for W, then N must give its slants to W and get remaining R68 to REPLACE the LOST slants. If TA keep the R68 for B, then Q-diamonds slant go straight to W and No changes is necessarly for N fleets. and the remaining R68 from W should go to G line (if TA expected to assign R68 to G) if not then, its up to B D Q N split up W's R68
But I could tell just from your writing style who it was. ;-)
:-) Andrew
wayne
Morning arrivals:
5 from Port Jefferson branch (one from Huntington, 4 from PJ)
3 from Oyster Bay
4 from Montauk branch (2 from Montauk, one each from Speonk and Patchogue)
Afternoon departures:
5 to Port Jefferson
4 to Oyster Bay
3 to Montauk branch (one to Patchogue, two to Montauk)
1 to Ronkonkoma
The one train in and out each day via the old Montauk route (not passing through Hunterspoint) is an Oyster Bay train.
I should also clarify that my numbers were for all the LIC and Hunterspoint service combined. Most of those trains only platform at Hunterspoint; LIC itself gets just five trains a day - mornings 2 OB, 1 Montauk, 1 Speonk, 1 PJ; afternoons 3 PJ, 1 OB, 1 Patchogue.
Yes, but they usually take the mainline via Sunnyside/HuntersPoint, not the Long Island City branch to get to Long Island City. Only a rare few actualy use the LIC branch to get to LIC.
Also at most only 2 trains per day could possibly use the LIC station, as I believe there is only one platform there of sufficient length. IIRC there is another platform, but it is too short.
It's funny, because that's the same trains that used to run on the line when local service was provided. At that time, the first LIC train was the express and came from Oyster Bay, and left Jamaica at 8:11, and went express between LIC and Jamaica. The second train in the morning was the local LIC train, and came from Patchogue, arrived and left Jamaica at 8:15, and made all local stops to LIC.
In the afternoon there were also two trains that used the branch. The first one is the one that still exists, left LIC at 4:54 or so, and ran semi-express to Jamaica and then to Oyster Bay. It stopped at Fresh Pond, and two of the other local stations (I can't remember if they were Penny Bridge, Haberman, and Fresh Pond, or if it was Fresh Pond, Glendale, and Richmond Hill - I think the first sequence). Then another train left LIC for Oyster Bay, and made all local stops. I don't know when it left LIC, but it stopped at Fresh Pond around 5:26, and Glendale at 5:30, and made stops at all the local stations.
If you can't read them, paste the links below, it will give a bigger version of the photo, imagestation.com doesn't allow photos to be posted any bigger remotely than I posted in this post.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid84/pf62a21e478f9903b4998e85e1ef3397a/faceac0b.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid84/p2574d6842ac2900d33cd3fd371b7e968/faceac25.jpg.orig.jpg
Times recalled from memory, and I do not wish to fight with the LIRR's schedule thingie to try and determine the new times.
A train leaves OB for LIC. Never once does it have to use electric mode. Why? B/c this train, like most OB trains, is scheduled to go to LIC. So, what should we use? Simple, a DE. Now, where do we get that DE from? Simple, the scheduled run that we are putting the DM from the OB train on. Still don't get it? Look:
Trains from Greenport use DE's. They also require a transfer at KO. From KO, most go to NYP. So, why not provide the riders with a one seat ride? How? We take a DM that is being wasted on the OB line, and put that in place of the DE we take off the Greenport-KO train. But what about that OB train? Simple, we put the DE that was originally on the Greenport-KO run and use that. So now, we have a DE running from OB to LIC(as origianlly scheduled), and take the DM and put it on the Main line from Greenport, and run it to NYP. This way, riders don't need to transfer at KO.
All the new engines in the 400 series are DE30's (straight diesels), and all the engines in the 500 series are DM30's (dual modes).
Also at most only 2 full-length trains per day could possibly use the LIC station, as I believe there is only one platform there of sufficient length. IIRC there is another platform, but it is too short.
One more thing to note: I've never seen a full-length train of bilevels on the Main Line. Usually only 3-4 car trains, and most only have an engine on one end.
No, but there are the other things that cause gaps: interlockings.
Can alocomotve have more than one pickup shoe per side? If such is the case, one loco should be able to traverse a gap caused by an interlocking.
Still, there are places where there are enough gaps that if you stop you could have a bit of a problem. Notorious ones on LU are the Southern entrance to Neasden Depot (which could see you blocking the Metropolitan and Jubilee Lines in both directions if you get gapped) and Platform 1 at Wimbledon (which would only mess up the Wimbledon Branch District Line, but has the added embarrassment of passengers on board whilst you get gapped).
This is way the hell better than it being a museum run. And it offers the railfan-centric bonus of being almost entirely unknown to the millions of people surrounding the line. C'mon, this is 2003. It's like, a miracle.`
I am also looking for some details about when the newer 15h street westbound trolley station was built and all that entailed.
Thanks
Sean@Temple
I presume MLF tacks were straitened out in the 20's, prior to start of construction of Broad Street Line.
To start, I ask the question. It's about the Dulles/Loudon line. Now, from what I've seen, it's supposed to be a separate line (Gold or Silver), but is it really supposed to just run from Loudon County/Dulles Airport to West Falls Church? Either way it would probably get in the way of at least one or two Orange Line trains. Terminating at the center track could cause delays for eastbound and westbound trains waiting for the Dulles train to leave. Any ideas on avoiding the tie-up?
Second: The Blue Line. It's getting the Largo extension soon, which is nice. But that's a lengthy trip. I wonder perhaps if DC Metro should revert to their original plan of running Yellow trains from Huntington to Addison Road/Largo via Arlington Cemetery and Rosslyn and running Blues from Fran-Spring to... wherever on the Green Line they'd terminate via the Fenwick bridge. Anyone agree? Disagree?
Third is a question for veterans: When did WMATA add the wall-mounted side signs to their system? I saw a pic at Pentagon from 1984, and one at PG Plaza from 1993, and neither showed evidence of the side signs.
Fourth is about growth & development. Except north from Mt Vernon Sq. on a Yellow train, there's plenty of hinted extensions on every line. After NY Avenue, Dulles Airport/Loudon County, and Largo, where will WMATA send Metrorail next? Given the rapid growth seen in Fairfax and Prince William Counties, I'd guess either Blue Line or Yellow Line south, possibly Orange Line west as well, maybe simultaneously. What do you all think?
Fifth: Usage of turnbacks. Specifically those designed exclusively as such. Stadium-Armory, Nat'l Airport, WFC. WFC will have a potential use as a junction/turnback when the Dulles route opens. That leaves the original Blue Line terminals. Should they take up the pocket tracks? Nothing really turns back at Stadium-Armory anymore. Shared lines don't offer much potential to use the other in-line turnbacks, if that's what the crossover is there for (i.e. Pentagon City, Federal Center SW, L'Enfant Plaza), and I've no idea why the other turnbacks were installed where they were (old rollsigns, and probably the flipdot/LED signs indicated potential turnbacks at every crossover location (and, I think, Rosslyn, but how in the hell that's done is beyond me)). Was WMATA planning on turning back at Medical Center, Twinbrook, Braddock Road, Federal Triangle/Center SW, or anywhere else they have a crossover or two at one time? The only ones I can be sure of are at R.I. Avenue, Ballston, Van Ness-UDC, Van Dorn Street, and Anacostia.
Mark
To start, I ask the question. It's about the Dulles/Loudon line. Now, from what I've seen, it's supposed to be a separate line (Gold or Silver), but is it really supposed to just run from Loudon County/Dulles Airport to West Falls Church? Either way it would probably get in the way of at least one or two Orange Line trains. Terminating at the center track could cause delays for eastbound and westbound trains waiting for the Dulles train to leave. Any ideas on avoiding the tie-up?
Yes, send the line to Stadium-Armory as is the current plan. Service will originate at Whiele Avenue before being extended to Dulles and will run to Stadium-Armory. Whenever the line is extended to Dulles and eventually whatever point in Loundon County the line will terminate at (Dulles will not be the end of the line), it will continue to use Stadium-Armory as its eastern terminal. Trains will relay at D&G Junction. Also, the first/last transfer point with the Orange Line will be at East Falls Church. Trains to Dulles will NOT stop at West Falls Church.
Second: The Blue Line. It's getting the Largo extension soon, which is nice. But that's a lengthy trip. I wonder perhaps if DC Metro should revert to their original plan of running Yellow trains from Huntington to Addison Road/Largo via Arlington Cemetery and Rosslyn and running Blues from Fran-Spring to... wherever on the Green Line they'd terminate via the Fenwick bridge. Anyone agree? Disagree?
The really long line will be the Silver/White line to Dulles. The trip from Dulles to Stadium-Armory will be over an hour and not some total of 61 or 62 minutes. I think it will be at least 70, if not more. Blue line will be shorter from the perspective of an operator by a fairly significant amount. The extension to Largo isn't that long.
Third is a question for veterans: When did WMATA add the wall-mounted side signs to their system? I saw a pic at Pentagon from 1984, and one at PG Plaza from 1993, and neither showed evidence of the side signs.
When people grew frustrated with having to read sideways. I am sorry I don't know the exact year. This was long before PG Plaza opened.
Fourth is about growth & development. Except north from Mt Vernon Sq. on a Yellow train, there's plenty of hinted extensions on every line. After NY Avenue, Dulles Airport/Loudon County, and Largo, where will WMATA send Metrorail next? Given the rapid growth seen in Fairfax and Prince William Counties, I'd guess either Blue Line or Yellow Line south, possibly Orange Line west as well, maybe simultaneously. What do you all think?
There is no provision for an extension at New York Avenue. The provisions I know of are in Greenbelt Yard, in Shady Grove Yard, in Glenmont Yard, on the Blue/Yellow line at Pentagon, south of Huntington, south of Franconia Springfield, West Falls Church, and Vienna.
Fifth: Usage of turnbacks. Specifically those designed exclusively as such. Stadium-Armory, Nat'l Airport, WFC. WFC will have a potential use as a junction/turnback when the Dulles route opens. That leaves the original Blue Line terminals. Should they take up the pocket tracks? Nothing really turns back at Stadium-Armory anymore. Shared lines don't offer much potential to use the other in-line turnbacks, if that's what the crossover is there for (i.e. Pentagon City, Federal Center SW, L'Enfant Plaza), and I've no idea why the other turnbacks were installed where they were (old rollsigns, and probably the flipdot/LED signs indicated potential turnbacks at every crossover location (and, I think, Rosslyn, but how in the hell that's done is beyond me)). Was WMATA planning on turning back at Medical Center, Twinbrook, Braddock Road, Federal Triangle/Center SW, or anywhere else they have a crossover or two at one time? The only ones I can be sure of are at R.I. Avenue, Ballston, Van Ness-UDC, Van Dorn Street, and Anacostia.
Many of those crossovers were placed because trains terminated there on a regular basis. The rest provide for flexibility in single tracking around broken down trains and, now that Metro does this, track work during operating hours. The question I have is why are there no easy turnbacks on the Green Line? There are many places to turn back the other lines without interfering thru traffic: Grosvenor, Farragut North, Union Station (Brentwood), Silver Spring, Stadium-Armory, West Falls Church, National Airport, and King Street (Alexandria Yard). But the Green Line only has Mount Vernon Square, currently being used by the Yellow Line. Makes balancing the differential between the Greenbelt and Branch Avenue branch very hard.
Hope this helps! We now have plenty to discuss.
Yes, send the line to Stadium-Armory
STADIUM-ARMORY?! Well, it WILL give the station a use regarding disused trunbakcs. But... won't that tie up Orange AND Blue? I'm halfway beginning to wonder if Metro might route some Blues to Grosvenor/Shady Grove to get them out of the way. Even then, there will still be tie-ups somewhere between Stadium-Armory and McPherson Sq. Perhaps a D & F connection near L'Enfant Plaza, and send the Blue to Fran-Spring that way? But then, the YELLOW would probably pick up the slack along the disused Blue route... Not that I'd mind seeing Yellow with more of it's own run, but then what would go to Mt Vernon Sq? From Virgina, I mean.
Trains will relay at D&G Junction. Also, the first/last transfer point with the Orange Line will be at East Falls Church. Trains to Dulles will NOT stop at West Falls Church.
I just cracked open the CAD viewer file, and saw that in the plans. I'd totally forgotten that The Silver (Gold) line isn't going to have anything to do with West Falls Church-VT/UVA Station, right down to its own yard leads north of I-66. D&G Junction Relay? I guess they'll have to time the Orange/Blue trains to avoid having to wait there until the Dulles train clears the pocket track. But then... if they end up waiting simultaneously, which has priority clearance, Blue or Orange? Or would it not matter, because the train in the pocket must wait for the Orange/Blue train to clear the signal ahead?
The really long line will be the Silver/White line to Dulles. The trip from Dulles to Stadium-Armory will be over an hour and not some total of 61 or 62 minutes. I think it will be at least 70, if not more.
I guess it's good they're not going PAST Stadium-Armory (why haven't I thought of a good abbreviation for that station name yet?). Too much running, and what if the operator has to go to the bathroom? If not for the need for service to downtown Washington, I'd almost wonder why not make ANOTHER connection at the assumed C&K junction, and just go Airport to Airport.
When people grew frustrated with having to read sideways. I am sorry I don't know the exact year. This was long before PG Plaza opened.
Well, Mark (Mountain Maryland) says it was introduced when the Ballston extension opened, and then spread gradually. However, I don't recall seeing them at Union Station, Metro Center, Judiciary Square, Gallery Place, Federal Triangle, or Smithsonian the first time I was in DC... at which time, I was 6 years old anyway.
The provisions I know of are in Greenbelt Yard, in Shady Grove Yard, in Glenmont Yard, on the Blue/Yellow line at Pentagon, south of Huntington, south of Franconia Springfield, West Falls Church, and Vienna.
Lines routed to: Beltsville/Muirkirk/Laurel (Green north), Germantown (Red west of Shady Grove), Aspen Hill/Olney (Red north of Glenmont), Lincolnia/Annandale (Blue/Yellow southwest), Mount Vernon (Ft Belvoir? It'd be the Yellow Line south), Newington/Lorton/Woodbridge (Blue line south), Alternate to Dulles or who knows what (WFC spur), and to Fair Oaks, then to Centreville or Chantilly or both (Orange Line west). One can only wonder which would be done first? I'd almost bank on Blue Line South or Yellow Line South (not both to Lincolnia), then on Green Line and Red Line north.
Many of those crossovers were placed because trains terminated there on a regular basis. The rest provide for flexibility in single tracking around broken down trains and, now that Metro does this, track work during operating hours.
Must have been a long time ago. I can only see potential regular turnbacks at: East Falls Church, West Falls Church, Smithsonian/Federal Triangle, Federal Center SW, L'Enfant Plaza (Green/Yellow), Metro Center (which DOESN'T have one), Foggy Bottom-GWU, Judiciary Square (since it is Metro's HQ), Friendship Heights, Union Station, Southern Ave, King Street, Cheverly, Fort Totten (assuming the mid-city Green Line to have been completed earlier on, though a Red train could turn back at Brookland-CUA using the connection track to the Green Line as a layup track), Georgia Ave-Petworth, and MAYBE Pentagon City. Takoma AND Silver Spring? Not likely. That goes for Twinbrook and Clarendon also. Amazingly, they DIDN'T add crossovers at Pentagon and Rosslyn. As far as McPherson Sq, I see it more as a way to cross over to the proper track for a train going from Red to Blue/Orange using the connector track than as a turnback track. Do you, by chance, know which stations also acted as turnbacks? Or was that restricted to those that served as terminals before further expansion, as the case with Van Ness and Ballston?
The question I have is why are there no easy turnbacks on the Green Line? There are many places to turn back the other lines without interfering thru traffic: Grosvenor, Farragut North, Union Station (Brentwood), Silver Spring, Stadium-Armory, West Falls Church, National Airport, and King Street (Alexandria Yard). But the Green Line only has Mount Vernon Square, currently being used by the Yellow Line.
VERY GOOD QUESTION!! I can only guess it's because of lack of a pocket track at Anacostia. Maybe if they expanded beyond Greenbelt and Branch Avenue, then they could add in layup tracks alongside the yard access tracks there. Then, we'd have Laurel-Waldorf trains AND Greenbelt-Branch Ave trains. Farragut North could also faciliate for Dupont Circle, I think. If they did add extra layup tracks on the Green, the best places would be Fort Totten and Anacostia, distance wise. That setup would allow for DC only trips, and DC-Maryland trips. That, or they could just go for Fort otten, and through route the Fort Totten trips to National Airport (not likely, that'd be more like a Yellow Line extension, and then Green would STILL be devoid of short-turn runs, while the Yellow would either have an end-to-end and end-to-short turn run configuration, or they'd run from FT to Huntington, and Mt. Vernon Sq. to National Airport... not a bad idea, but it'd make even less room for Green turnbacks.
Another reason the Green probably doesn't have a turnback that doesn't interfere is because it could just as easily bypass Fort Totten and shift to the Red line, a la the now-deceased Commuter Shortcut. That would open potential to terminate at Dupont Circle, Farragut North, or Grosvenor if anyone wanted that. I still say the best bet is to either add layup tracks at the end yards on Green and wait for extensions, or add pocket tracks at Fort Totten or Georgia Ave-Petworth and Anacostia or Southern Ave, and make that the short run.
Thank you for your reply.
Also, how are you going to reroute Blue line trains to Grosvenor and Shady Grove? Sure, they can get there from Addison Road (or Largo) but how do you plan on getting them back? C&A connection is a single track that only connects the northbound (at that point) Red Line track to the eastbound Blue/Orange track.
The connection near McPherson Square was built for moving trains, not for turnbacks. Fort Totten lower level's turnback was built for the outer Green Line terminal and so trains could access the Red Line connection from either track. Most of the crossovers mid-route were built for flexibility in the reasons I stated earlier. If you want a list of stations that served as regular terminals and how trains terminated there, I can provide it.
As for why the Green Line doesn't have more turnbacks, the turnback at Fort Totten should enable trains coming from DC to turnback and go to Branch Avenue. Using the connection to the Red Line as a relay is pointless since not many people enter at Greenbelt and go to West Hyattsville or one of the intermediate stations. A pocket could be added at Southern Avenue if the need ever arose but that isn't the place that needs one. U Street and Fort Totten are the stations that really need turnback capabilities.
If you want a list of stations that served as regular terminals and how trains terminated there, I can provide it.
Yes, thank you. I've been wanting to know that since I saw the track map that is unfortunately no longer on this site.
Using the connection to the Red Line as a relay is pointless since not many people enter at Greenbelt and go to West Hyattsville or one of the intermediate stations
That I know. I was referring to using it as a layup for trains going back to Branch Avenue. Would help if WMATA had buil a connecting track from the northbound track into the track leading to the Red Line. Currently, they'd need to reverse ends thrice to terminate at Fort Totten from the south (unless it was a Red train, of course), once to actually get onto the shortcut track, then again to get back to the Green track, then AGAIN to head for DC. A pocket between Georgia Avenue and Fort Totten would be nice, then they could potentially use either for turnbacks.
A pocket could be added at Southern Avenue if the need ever arose but that isn't the place that needs one. U Street and Fort Totten are the stations that really need turnback capabilities.
I take it you'd either send everything all the way to Branch Avenue, regardless of where it originates, or you've got another southern terminal in mind (and I'm all for extensions PAST Branch Avenue, with short runs between For Totten/Georgia Ave/U Street-Cardozo and Anacostia/Branch Avenue)
Of course, spare short trips on the Green... then what good is the Yellow Line any more? At first, I'd say just run it only to National Airport, with half the Blue trains taking the bridge (to avoid tying up the Orange/Silver Lines) and laying up wherever on the Green Line WMATA wants them to... but the Yellow Line's short enough, and I doubt Huntington residents and commuters going through Huntington want to change trains every day.. You could just re-route them via Arlington Cemetery, Rosslyn, and the I Street corridor, but between them, the Blues (unless all Blues were re-routed via Potomac River Bridge), the Orange, and the Silver, that route would be more deadlocked than I-95! ONE ay could make it possible without excess tie-ups. tighten the gap in signal clearances moving through Mt Vernon Sq, so that anything on the pocket could pretty much start moving into Mt Vernon Sq as soon as whatever train were in Mt Vernon Sq heading south had got its last car past the block (Considering load times there, the Yellow/Blue train wouldn't be at risk of getting too close). By the time the Yellow/Blue train was ready to leave MVSq, the Green/Yellow/Blue ahead of it would be in Archives-Navy Memorial.
Or there's always the possibilty of Express Green Line trains, or running the Blues nonstop to L'Enfant Plaza from wherever they originate on the Green. Yellow's too short to use express service.
List of stations that were terminals on regular basis and how trains were relayed, stations with * are still terminals:
Shady Grove, diamond crossover south of station*
Grosvenor, pocket north of station*
Van Ness, diamond crossover south of station
DuPont Circle, trains relayed north of station, crossed over using diamond crossover north of station
Farragut North, both Red and Green Line trains used pocket north of station
Rhode Island Avenue, crossover in vicinity of station, I forget if it was north or south
Silver Spring, scisscor crossover south of station or pocket north of station, both are in use now but generally the pocket is used*
Wheaton, not sure since there are 2 diamond crossovers in the vicinity, sorry
Glenmont, diamond crossover south of statoin*
Greenbelt, diamond crossover south of station*
Fort Totten, diamond crossover east of station
U Street, diamond crossover south/east of station
Mount Vernon Square, pocket north of station*
Gallery Place, trains crossed over north of L'Enfant Plaza and came back to L'Enfant on the track they came on (trains at Archives could be going in either direction on either track) and ran manually at no more than 15 MPH from Archives north
Anacostia, trains relayed south of station, crossed over using diamond crossover south of station
Branch Avenue, diamond crossover north of station*
Huntington, diamond crossover north of station*
Franconia-Springfield, diamond crossover north of station*
Van Dorn Street, diamond crossover north/east of station
National Airport, various manuevers used, sometimes complicated depending on number of lines terminating and status of line south
Vienna, diamond crossover east of station*
West Falls Church, trains can pull in/out from either center or side track, center track still OOS for revenue moves due to National Airport derailment as far as I am aware*
Ballston, scissor (?) crossover east of station
Stadium-Armory, trains crossed over west of Potomac Avenue and came back to Potomac Avenue on the track they came on (trains at Potomac Avenue could be going in either direction on either track), when Orange Line to New Carrollton opened, Blue line trains relayed at D&G Junction
New Carrollton, diamond crossover south of station*
Addison Road, diamond crossover west of station*
Largo ???
Branch Avenue side serves more passengers than Greenbelt side. Thus it makes more sense for all trains to serve the Branch Avenue side.
Read your page today... you'd rate Orange above Blue? Even with the DC view you get along the outdoor stretch between Rosslyn and Pentagon (including Arlington Cemetery)? I might post my rate on it later, along with potential stations I'm actually known to visit on every DC trip I make.
Stadium-Armory, trains crossed over west of Potomac Avenue and came back to Potomac Avenue on the track they came on (trains at Potomac Avenue could be going in either direction on either track), when Orange Line to New Carrollton opened, Blue line trains relayed at D&G Junction
I never even knew that. I thought at least the pocket track was already built. I'm guessing WMATA installed that track knowing they'd not be extending Blue for a while... otherwise, Stadium-Armory would never be considered a terminal again.
Gallery Place, trains crossed over north of L'Enfant Plaza and came back to L'Enfant on the track they came on (trains at Archives could be going in either direction on either track) and ran manually at no more than 15 MPH from Archives north
I tend to forget that was the original Yellow/Green terminal, favoring Mt Vernon Sq over it.
Wheaton, not sure since there are 2 diamond crossovers in the vicinity, sorry
No need to be. I've seen both used, though I always assumed the one between Wheaton and Forest Glen to be for potential Forest Glen turnbacks.
I'm guessing common practice with pocket tracks is to use them for layup at the station BEFORE the pocket, and not after it, even if the track spans close to the whole length of tunnel/viaduct/embankment/ROW between two stations (isn't this the case between Shaw and Mt Vernon Sq?). If so, then by WMATA logic, the pocket SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line has near Spring Garden would actually be for tunbacks at 2nd Street! I can see why they use that logic, though.
WFC... is still a terminal? Must be during peak periods to get extra trains off the line, and out of the way. I wonder where they send the extra Blues. Deadhead from Fran-Spring to the yard? I read on the Blue line station guide they occasionally turn back at NA.
Green Line never terminated at Gallery Place.
Mark
Believe me, what I'd be glad to own is a K car Subway-Surface rollsign from here. and one for 101/102 routes and MAYBE an N5 rollsing also.
List of stations that were terminals on regular basis and how trains were relayed, stations with * are still terminals:
Shady Grove, diamond crossover south of station*
Double crossover south end of platform.
Grosvenor, pocket north of station*
Van Ness, diamond crossover south of station
Double crossover south end of platform.
DuPont Circle, trains relayed north of station, crossed over using diamond crossover north of station
Double crossover north end of platform.
Farragut North, both Red and Green Line trains used pocket north of station
Rhode Island Avenue, crossover in vicinity of station, I forget if it was north or south
Double crossover north of station.
Silver Spring, scisscor crossover south of station or pocket north of station, both are in use now but generally the pocket is used*
Pair of single crossovers south of platform.
Wheaton, not sure since there are 2 diamond crossovers in the vicinity, sorry
Double crossover between Forest Glen B09 and Wheaton B10.
Glenmont, diamond crossover south of statoin*
Double crossover south end of platform.
Greenbelt, diamond crossover south of station*
Double crossover south end of platform.
Fort Totten, diamond crossover east of station
Double crossover east end of station.
U Street, diamond crossover south/east of station
Double crossover south end of platform.
Mount Vernon Square, pocket north of station*
Gallery Place, trains crossed over north of L'Enfant Plaza and came back to L'Enfant on the track they came on (trains at Archives could be
going in either direction on either track) and ran manually at no more than 15 MPH from Archives north
Double crossover north end of platform.
Anacostia, trains relayed south of station, crossed over using diamond crossover south of station
Double crossover south end of platform.
Branch Avenue, diamond crossover north of station*
Double crossover south end of platform.
Huntington, diamond crossover north of station*
Double crossover north end of platform.
Franconia-Springfield, diamond crossover north of station*
Double crossover north end of platform.
Van Dorn Street, diamond crossover north/east of station
Double crossover north/east end of platform.
National Airport, various maneuvers used, sometimes complicated depending on number of lines terminating and status of line south
Vienna, diamond crossover east of station*
Double crossover east end of platform.
West Falls Church, trains can pull in/out from either center or side track, center track still OOS for revenue moves due to National Airport
derailment as far as I am aware*
Ballston, scissors (?) crossover east of station
Double crossover east end of platform.
Stadium-Armory, trains crossed over west of Potomac Avenue and came back to Potomac Avenue on the track they came on (trains at
Potomac Avenue could be going in either direction on either track),
Double crossover east end of platform at Eastern Market D06.
when Orange Line to New Carrollton opened, Blue line trains relayed at D&G Junction
New Carrollton, diamond crossover south of station*
Double crossover west end of platform.
Addison Road, diamond crossover west of station*
Double crossover west end of platform.
Largo ???
Double crossover west end of platform.
Branch Avenue side serves more passengers than Greenbelt side. Thus it makes more sense for all trains to serve the Branch Avenue side.
A Side note, There are only four locations where paired single crossovers are installed on the main line in the system, all others are double crossover/scissors crossover.
South of Fort Totten B06 south B and E Connector
South of Tokoma B07
South end of platform Sliver Spring B08
East end of platform Cheverly D11
Two other locations in yard leads/tail tracks.
North of Glenmont B11
South end of platform Branch Avenue F11
John
BTW, one of you sent a list a while back of the destinations on the rollsigns... mind sending again? And if you can, the flipdot/LED sign destinations as well? Please?
The primary purpose of the crossovers spread throughout the system are to allow single track operation for track and other line side maintenance. They are also used to allow single track operation around stuck trains.
Short turning trains at any of the crossovers can be done at any time if disruptions require it.
The signaling and train control system on WMATA is by directional all main line track.
BTW, one of you sent a list a while back of the destinations on the rollsigns... mind sending again? And if you can, the flipdot/LED sign destinations as well? Please?
See thread Re: WMATA Flipdots
John
When's your website going to be back up and running?
Mark
http://63.218.227.207/orenstransitpage/departures.htm
Its running fine for me.
Wasn't that the original idea?
wayne
Metro should alternate which trains use the Potomac River Bridge and the I Street corridor from Pentagon, Alexandria, Huntington, and Fran-Spring during rush hours. Just have every other Blue train go over the Charles Fenwick Bridge, and every other Yellow use the I Street corridor; then there would be no need for a color swap, because they'd both use each other's routes. there wouldn't be much confusion, as WMATA usually makes a lot of noise before implementing a drastic change. Once it was done, your rush hour commute would be seeing Blue trains to some point on the Green Line and then back to Franconia-Springfield, along with Yellow trains to Largo and back to Huntington. Since both trains go to DC, there's no need for a color sign at the end of the station to announce the arriving train's destination (a la Stadium-Armory, Rosslyn), which is why one isn't there now. And with trains alternating over each other's routes, having one would start to confuse riders (They'd probably see Blue expecting the train to go the long way, and get a surprise when they diverge east and hit the bridge.). The best way to know which route yout train is taking is just to look at the destination sign on the side. (after all, right now, there's only so much mixing possible.)
The 1969 Adopted ARS Area Regional System had no plans nor provisions for a future station at Quaker Lane, Proposals prier to adoption of 1969 ARS showed future provision for a station. There is a map up at the National Capital Trolley Museum that shows one of the pre 1969 ARS proposals in their display on WMATA. The Quaker Lane station would fall in the J01 RTU that control this section of on the J Route.
As to the hurricane, I have moved out of the house in North Beach and am now living in a rental house at mile post 107 on MD US-50 just west of Salisbury Maryland. My plans are to sell the house in North Beach and purchase a house on the Eastern Shore.
John
PS
Wave as you pass my house on the way to Ocean City.
All of the construction drawings survived even after being under water. Lost my copies of 03 28 1976 Washington Post, Washington Star and a number of other miscellaneous documents. My third rail chair whereabouts unknown. Emergence Evacuation Map, G Route Largo extension plans and profiles from EIS, Tyson Dulles Loudoun County plans from DEIS whereabouts unknown.
Lost a number of railroad related books. LeRoy King’s 100 Years of Capitol Transit, William D Middlton’s When The Steam Railroads Electrified and John Signor’s Tehachapi.
John
The Water was gone by Friday night 09 19 2003.
My brothers helped pack up the stuff in the house and put some in storage to be transported to my new domicile. Other stuff damaged by the water was put in a dumpster. Some may have been trashed by mistake or my be packed in a box that I yet to have opened.
John
You are truly, the "Metro" man
Mark
mark
Hope this helps.
And, belive it or not, each Metro line has something about it none of the others can claim BESIDES the stations (and Red Line's "stingy" factor.
Red: First in service.
Orange: First completed.
Blue: Took longest to complete (remember, even after the Orange Line first began operations, Blue still ran only from Stadium-Armory to National Airport before Addison Road opened. Then until 1991 for Van Dorn Street, and 1997 to Fran-Spring), otherwise really doesn't have anything yet. (It will be the first expanded beyond the original planned system)
Green: Last to open, last completed, only one segmented (mid-city portion missing), and first to get the CAFs.
Yellow: Shortest, but arguably the best scenery (Potomac River Bridge).
what goes on at the DC Armory anyways. Never actually EXITED at Stadium-Armory, due to lack of a reason to.
It's still National Airport to me.
What or who finally pushed Metro to change it?
Ben F. Schumin :-)
wayne
My first ride on DC Metro was November 25, 1978, from Stadium-Armory to National Airport, back to Metro Center and then to Union Station.
I have visited it many times and photographed it extensively. Last time I was there was June 27-28, 2002, with my 88-year-old Dad in tow.
We did the Green Line from end to end, went to Franconia-Springfield, Huntington, Addison Road, Fort Totten, Rockville, in three separate field trips over the two days.
Yes, I am a Metrophile.
wayne
wayne
The closest area for development is Eastern Market. Its becoming very yuppified now as all the Capitol Hill Interns, Senators, Congressmen, etc. as well as other yuppies move there.
With DC United and other soccer games playing at RFK, that's about the only thing that brings people to that particular Metro Station, other than the few residents that use it rather than the several buses that pass through.
And with MCI Center, USAir Arena, and the Jack Kent Cooke Stadium in Largo, Stadium-Armory is even more obsolete now than it may have become years ago. Still, the station's there, and I've never known Metro to close down a station permanently. So it's not likely SA is going anywhere anytime soon.
Any other stations in areas that have lost important landmarks or seen a shift in population? The only other one I can think of is Mt Vernon Sq. But that lost the UDC campus (and part of its name) and gained the Convention Center, not losing a lick of ridership, from what I can tell.
mark
Although, the swap would give the Yellow more running room. But still, only TWO stations of its own either way.
Once the Dulles Line opens, we'll see what WMATA does to keep the Blue, Orange, and Silver lines from having delays in the I, 12th, and D Streets subways (Between Rosslyn and Stadium-Armory) due to THREE trains sharing a TWO-track ROW.
Red doesn't have these problems...
As I recall the phase opening terminals had the white text station names on Red, Blue and Green fields, the Yellow line had black text station names on the Yellow field with the strip map of the line shown on the in side sign box. All of the odd ball terminals were white text station names on black field both outside and inside
Red Line
White on Red with inside strip map
Glenmont
Wheaton
Silver Spring
Rhode Island Avenue
Farragut North
Dupont Circle
Van Ness
Grosvenor
Shady Grove
White on Black inside outside
Takoma
Union Station
Judiciary Square
Friendship Heights
Medical Center
Twinbrook
Blue Line
White on Blue with inside strip map
Addison Road
Stadium-Armory
National Airport
Huntington
White on Black inside outside
Eastern Market
Federal Center SW
Smithsonian
McPherson Square
Foggy Bottom-GWU
Rosslyn
Arlington Cemetery
Pentagon City
Braddock Road
King Street
Eisenhower Avenue
Orange Line
White on Orange with inside strip map
New Carrollton
Ballston
West Falls Church
Vienna
White on Black inside outside
Cheverly
Clarendon
East Falls Church
Green Line
White on Green with inside strip map
Greenbelt
U Street
Gallery Place
Anacostia
Alabama Avenue
Branch Avenue
White on Black inside outside
College Park
Chillum
Fort Totten
Georgia Avenue
L'Enfant Plaza
Navy Yard
Naylor Road
Yellow Line
Black on Yellow with inside strip map
Greenbelt
U Street
Gallery Place
Van Dorn Street
Springfield
Franconia
Along with other White on Black inside outside
No Passengers
Special
Dulles Airport
I don’t recall ever seeing Instruction Train or any other station names that were shown as future on the 1974 ARS
Some of these may seem to be wrong, but believe me - they're not. No Federal Triangle, no Mt Vernon Sq-UDC, and yes, you read it right, DULLES AIRPORT. majority of these weren't in use until LONG after the rollsigns were retired; Vienna among them (just to give you an idea how quickly they moved away from rollsigns).
Alabama Avenue? Congress Heights, but the turnback point ended up being Southern Avenue... weird.
Still today, I DON'T know the flipdot/LED signs and codes. colors ARE interchangeable, to a point. I've just never seen many uses of it, besides the July 4th color swaps of Blue/Yellow, and Orange to Addison Road. However, as seen with the Commuter Shortcut, it's entirely possible to take a Green to the westbound Red Line. I'll post the "guess list" of the LED/Flipdot codes later, but I hope to make it to the next Metrorail Rodeo, if there is one. I'm eager to learn those codes... (Nosey me!)
The only I know of that semi-regularly appear (not through normal operations) are: Blue to Hungtington, Yellow to Fran-Spring, Orange to Addison Road, Green to U Street, Blue to Rosslyn (that was only one year, or am I wrong about that?), and I THINK, Yellow to Greenbelt. Rosslyn turnback? Wrong-rail back to Arlington Cemetery. How they'd do it from EAST of Rosslyn, I don't know.
07 SILVER SPRING
09 GROSVENOR
10 SPECIAL
12 SHADY GROVE
13 GLENMONT
42, 43, and 44 are GREENBELT and BRANCH AVENUE (clearly one of those numbers matches up to one of those destinations).
NO PASSENGERS does not have a destination sign code.
00: NO PASSENGERS
01: INSTRUCTION TRAIN
02: EMERGENCY SVC.
03: RHODE ISLAND AVE.*
04: FARRAGUT NORTH*
05: DUPONT CIRCLE*
06: VAN NESS*
08: TAKOMA
10: UNION STATION
14: JUDICIARY SQUARE
15: MEDICAL CTR.
16: FREINDSHIP HTS
17: TWINBROOK
18: ADDISON ROAD*
19: FRANC-SPRINGD
20: VAN DORN ST.*
21: STADIUM-ARMORY* (will be Silver/White Line's terminal station, so it's both)
22: EASTERN MARKET
23: FEDERAL CTR SW
24: SMITHSONIAN
25: MCPHERSON SQ.
26: FOGGY BOTTOM
27: ROSSLYN
28: ARLINGTON CEM.
29: PENTAGON CITY
30: NAT'L AIRPORT*
31: BRADDOCK ROAD
32: KING STREET
33: VIENNA
34: NEW CARROLLTN
35: BALLSTON*
36: DULLES AIRPORT
37: WEST FALLS CHURCH (RARELY used)
38: EAST FALLS CHURCH
39: CHEVERLY
40: GREENBELT
41: BRANCH AVE
42: U STREET (or was it, "U ST-CARDOZO")*
43: ANACOSTIA*
44: COLLEGE PARK
45: WEST HYATTSVIL (or whatever, I'm sure the whole station name didn't fit)
46: FORT TOTTEN* (Green, not Red)
47: GEORGIA AVE
48: SHAW
49: MT VERNON SQ
50: GALLERY PLACE*
51: L'ENFANT PLAZA
52: NAVY YARD
53: NAYLOR ROAD
54: HUNTINGTON
55-99: I HAVE NO IDEA!!!
Just a guess, remember. Codes 11, 12, and 13 were omitted. Oren (WMATAGMOAGH) knows the actual codes for Silver Spring, Wheaton, Glenmont, and Shady Grove, which fall betwen 10-14. As such, Union Station may actually be 09, as "NO PASSENGERS" has no code number, which would push "INSTRUCTION TRAIN" back to 00 (if it even has a code number). Oren has also told me that 42-44 are for Greenbelt and Branch Avenue, at least any two of the three. Southern Avenue probably goes there as well. John is the one who revealed that 36 is Dulles Airport. I can't help but wonder how far off I may be. Assumedly, the white/Silver destinations would be grouped, meaning Tyson's Corner could be in there someplace. And NO, I didn't "miss" Federal Triangle. The station outbound of the crossover gets its name on the sign (unless the crossover's location is pretty much immediately past the end of the platform, a la L'Enfant Plaza, and FCSW), and assuming WMATA to want all short turn trips on the lines serving Metro Center Station to stop there on the run, they'd not need to include Federal Triangle... although a turnback there IS very possible, and FedTri may be among the higher numbers.
Mark
If I knew how to post a picture on Subtalk, I'd take a couple snap shots and up load them---perhaps, I can e-mail them to somebody and they can load them in.....
Mark,
Some where in my stuff I have those pictures I shot when we met in Frosburg. I will up load them to my web server along with the flood pictures.
John
'Course, if I knew where to find one, I'd buy my own WMATA rollsign. And make pics to post.
Mountain Mike's Truncated WMATA Rohr Roll Sign
Please excuse my use of Netscape’s bloated HTML editor. Normally I hack HTML using a text editor.
John
Mountain Mike?
Who's That?
Pics turned out good...
I guess you and I will be covering the east & west end of the state,
Mark
Opps !!!
I have been a way to long.
Pics turned out good...
I guess you and I will be covering the east & west end of the state,
The city of Salisbury and Ocean City, Wicomico, Worcester and Somerset Counties transit.
Actually there is a small but extensive regular bus service connecting most of the towns down here on the southern eastern shore of Maryland.
Mark
John
Mark
wayne
MY NEXT ROLLSIGN PROJECT!!!
I also noticed that a few Orange Line terminals (Ballston, New Carrollton) appear (that's the key word) to be "Broadway BMT Subway" yellow (with the black text). Was White-on-orange not a good color combination?
At Fort Totten, transfer to the Green AND Yellow lines!
Mark
It used to be the B, M, and 5, but the B now runs those ugly Hippos, the M is no longer express on 4th Ave, and the 5 no longer has Redbirds. In fact after the Redbirds disappear from the 7, my next favorite line will probably be the Q.
This poll question was impeached from poll-taking activities in 2002.
Try better next time, brah.
Think I'm a plagiarist, eh? >:(
or
2. The line terminating at St. George. (using SIRT's Platforms) With Transfer to a new SIRT island Platform station. The original platforms are moved further back from the Ferry Terminal, with the SIRT station depressed between, with walkways crossing over to the terminal (similar to the walkways over the Lex line at union square). And steps/ramps/elevators. half way in to go down to the Island Platform. The SIRT Will now run from Port Richmond Bus terminal, to its current end at Tottenville.
Connect Bay Ridge line to St. George, not NJ. The tunnel would be 3 or 4 tracks, 2 for commuter rail, one or 2 for freight trains. No subway to SI.
Run 5 commuter train lines.(LIRR gauge, which is same as SIRT)
1.Jamaica to Port Richmond via the Bay Ridge line, cross harbor tunnel(the one described above), St George and North Shore line. Stops are:
Jamaica-Fresh Pond-East New York-Some stop somewhere in brooklyn near Flatbush av-Bay Ridge-St. George-and then a stop or 2-Port Richmond
2. St. George to Some place in southern NJ, like, Princeton Junction, or hell, why not Princeton. Runs via North Shore line, AK lift bridge, and some other lines to the NJT NEC line.
3. St. George to Hoboken via North Shore line, Bayonne Bridge, and I think it is the old CNJ line.
4. St. George to Midtown via north shore line, AK lift bridge, and some NJT line.
5. Either Port Richmond to downtown, or Tottenville to downtown via the cross harbor tunnel, then the Gowanus ROW(sink the gowanus and run trains, at grade? or elevated? Stops for tottenville route would be:
Tottenville*-Nassau*-Princess Bay-Huguenot*-Annadale-Eltingville*-Great Kills-*-Oakwood Heights-New Dorp*-Grant City-Grasmere-Clifton-St. George*-Bay Ridge*-Red Hook-Downtown Manhattan*
*-express stops.
Ok, so maybe knock off one(but not the southern NJ line, maybe the one to midtown via NJ)
Errrm... a Fresh Pond alignment would be just a little circuitous (and would IINM require a new junction anyway).
How about:
Jamaica, Woodhaven, ENY, Livonia, Remsen Av, Flatbush Av, E15th St, McDonald Av, New Utrecht Av, 4th Av, St George, Ballpark, New Brighton, Snug Harbor, Livingston, West Brighton, Port Richmond.
2. St. George to Some place in southern NJ, like, Princeton Junction, or hell, why not Princeton. Runs via North Shore line, AK lift bridge, and some other lines to the NJT NEC line.
Why not just extend 1:
Port Richmond, Tower Hill, Elm Park, Lake Av, Mariner's Harbor, Harbor Rd, Arlington, Bayway, Linden, Rahway, Metropark, Metuchen, Edison, New Brunswick, Jersey Av, Princeton Jn.
3. St. George to Hoboken via North Shore line, Bayonne Bridge, and I think it is the old CNJ line.
There may be problems here in getting up onto the Bayonne Bridge.
4. St. George to Midtown via north shore line, AK lift bridge, and some NJT line.
Midtown via Newark?!? Might as well route it via the Bay Ridge Line.
5. Either Port Richmond to downtown, or Tottenville to downtown via the cross harbor tunnel, then the Gowanus ROW(sink the gowanus and run trains, at grade? or elevated? Stops for tottenville route would be:
Tottenville*-Nassau*-Princess Bay-Huguenot*-Annadale-Eltingville*-Great Kills-*-Oakwood Heights-New Dorp*-Grant City-Grasmere-Clifton-St. George*-Bay Ridge*-Red Hook-Downtown Manhattan*
Better idea.
You could think about adding a service to Travis along those freight tracks that never saw passenger service. That might spur development on the West side of SI.
A line from SI to midtown....maybe I'll take that back.
Also, according to my map, and from what I've seen, there is a track that connects the lower montauk to the Bay Ridge line. This means trains can ru from Jamaica to Bay Ridge without any new switches. Also, I say via Fresh Pond b/c that area doesn't have passenger service any more.
I don't know about using the travis branch, let alone spurring a new development. I'm sick and tired of all the development , it only adds to the traffic problem.
1. The BMT P (Canarsie) Line was to disappear with completion of the rebuild at Atlantic Ave. Also the piece of K track that ran through the station. Is this gone? Is the entire Canarsie Line now signalled Q?
2. When the Culver Line was all BMT it was Line C. When the IND took over it became IND Line B. But the part of the Culver Line (lower level) from W8 to Stillwell was always Brighton coded: A1 and A2. Is it still?
3. When the Coney Island Creek bridge was two tracks, the Sea Beach Line E ended at the junction with the West End Line D north of the Creek. All the tracks from that point to Stillwell were Line D. Now that there are four tracks continually, and effectively no Sea Beach-West End junction, do the Sea Beach E tracks go all the way to Stillwell?
Paul: Actually the "B" signalling extended only to Van Siclen Station. It was BMT "C" from there to West 8 Street and then Brighton "A" to Coney Island. I questioned Pete Dougherty about this when he first came out with the "Tracks of NY." Apparently the section between Van Siclen and West 8 Street has been converted to IND "B" fairly recently. Tle lower level between West 8 and Coney island remains "A" trackage at least as of last year when I was out there.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Posted on:10/15/03 10:23 PM
NYC TRANSIT SERVICE
DUE TO STATEN ISLAND FERRY SUSPENSION
While the Staten Island Ferry remains suspended, NYC Transit will continue to provide a Free Shuttle Bus between the 86th Street/4th Avenue Station in Bay Ridge and the St. George Ferry Terminal on Staten Island. In addition, there will also be additional S79 and S53 buses to take passengers between Bay Ridge and Staten Island.
The Staten Island Railroad will operate Shuttle service from the Stapleton and Clifton Stations to St. George. In addition, Staten Island Railroad will operate along its normal route from St. George to Tottenville.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, it is, but only in the context of school (and some social activities), and only in the winter.
An Illinois farmer hasn't always lived such a good life, so when he goes before St. Peter, he's assigned to the bad place, at least for a while.
Not being a really bad guy, he approaches the Devil amiably, so the Devil decides he's going to have to really work to break this guy and show him who's boss. So he put the farmer in a blazing hot room and leaves him there for a few weeks and then peeks in to see how he's doing. Instead of looking tortured, the farmer is sitting there, grinning from ear to ear.
"What are you so happy about?" says the Devil.
"This heat!" the farmer replies, "It's good for the corn!"
"So!" says the Devil, "we'll see how you like THIS!" and the Devil puts the farmer in another room which is both blazing hot and drenchingly humid.
A few more weeks pass, the Devil looks in and sees that the farmer is no longer simply grinning, he's laughing out loud.
"NOW why are you so happy?"
"This hot, humid weather. It's even BETTER for the corn!"
Angry and confused, the Devil yells at the farmer: "Wait until I put you in the NEXT room!" And the Devil switches tactics and puts the farmer in a freezing cold room of solid ice.
More weeks pass and the Devil, satisfied with himself, looks in on the farmer. This time the farmer is on his feet, dancing and laughing and whooping it up.
"What NOW!" thunders the Devil, "You're not going to tell me this freezing room is good for the corn?"
"No," laughs the farmer, "it means the Cubbies are going to win the pennant!"
--------------------
No joy in Mudville tonight. :(
I wonder if that jackass fan who caught the ball is thinking how close the Cubs came to winning the game and heading to the World series ? If it were just another game, it would be no big deal. But a playoff game where you're only one inning away from becoming Nayional League pennant winners, I say let the left fielder catch the ball for the out. He's probably the most hated Chicagoan in years.
What's all this about the billy goat incident I hear on TV ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I almost think it'd be more fun to be a Cubs fan if the Cubs didn't win the World Series. If they did then it'd just sump the fun out of the whole thing, already we have people walking around in Cubs hats who have never been near Wrigley. It drives me nuts, used to be that the only people who wore Cubs hats were Cubs fans, the majority of which were amiable midwest-types (all the nuts in Chicago root for the Sux, witness the recent player maulings by their fans). Now if I ask some Cubs-hat-wearing person if they've ever been to Wrigly I'm more likely to get some damn east coast person, for whom a trip 'out west' entails going all the way to Mt Pocono, who's just wearing the hat because it's fashonable. I say let them go another 5-10 years with losing seasons, it'll drive away all the nuts they've attracted from the Sux (yes, that's right, they learned not only how a to get on the Red Line, they even figured out that Addison is where you get off for Wrigley!). Let's at least wait until it's a good century between World Series wins before we go for it, and when we do, it had better be a sweep of either the Black Sux, the Junkees, or the Marlins to win it!
But for now, go Red Sox, if for no other reason than if you win it now, the Cubs record will be safe, although I guess that means that I'll have to root for the Black Sux at some point :(
Depression? Terrible Life Event?
Yes, it looks bad for him. But we live in a democracy and everybody is entitled to a hearing, even the suspected snipers in the Washington metropolitan area.
Michael
Washington, DC
Have you ever made a mistake in your life? Well, this 15 year veteran Staten Island Ferry Operator made his first mistake yesterday, and it happened to be a very dear one. Do you think he intended to kill those people? I doubt it. They are speculating right now a PRESCRIPTION drug may have been the cause of him passing out at the wheel. How would you feel if you did something like that happened to you? You might just want to kill yourself.
This poor man is probably going through some serious trauma, and he may never fully recover. My prayers go out to this great man, who neighbors said was a very nice person and a great family man.
"If you were in his shoes," Mr. McCabe said, "if you'd seen all the people who were killed and maimed, that's going to be on his mind for the rest of his life."
I'd tend to agree with his neighbors.
And *NO* counseling out of the MTA ... aaaagggggggghhh! :(
Oviously departed Manhattan at 3 and crashed 3:20
so it left SI 1:30, 2:30????
Does anyone know??
In my experience, the R-32's have been on the:
A
B
C
D
E
F
G
J
N
Q
R
V
thats alotta lines!!!
wayne
Correct that they did not appear on the "EE" (or the "GG" for that matter) during that period. Occasional R38s appeared instead.
wayne
The rest of the R-32's are based at Pitkin, where they run on the A and C. (The other Pitkin-based route, the Rockaway Park shuttle, runs OPTO around the clock, so it only uses R-44's.)
Barring emergencies, you will only see R-32's these days on Jamaica-based and Pitkin-based routes.
Until March, Coney Island also had R-32's. On weekdays, they generally only showed up on the N. On weekends, they'd also make occasional appearances on the W, much as the R-40's do today. In a pinch, they could also be used on the Q (circle or diamond). (The Franklin Avenue shuttle, the other CI-based route, has a dedicated fleet of nine R-68 singles.)
Cars? Of course they share cars -- with each other and with the F, R, shuttle, and occasionally E. Among the pool of R-46's, none are strictly assigned to one line or another.
I got one. Free ride for the day. or $.25 subway fare for the day
Making the fare 5 cents for October 27, 2004 should be 5 cents instead. However, I don't know how they could pull this off without the public abusing it buying mulitple 5 cent fare Metrocards.
Bill "Newkirk"
If it was done using Metrocards, the cards would be encoded with an expiration date of October 24, 2004.
Of course, they should reinstall ticket choppers for the day :)
No, I thought it would be more interesting to sell expired cards ;)
I'd like to you go somewhere with only $1.95 on the card.
Since most people (and I am not talking about railfans)put even amounts of money on their cards, this "leftover" is going to confuse them to no end.
Robert
David
The "M" on the weekend is just a shuttle, so the TA decided to operate is as OPTO and the R143s are the only 60ft cars that can be operated as OPTO. Remember, 75ft cars are not allowed on the Eastern Division Lines.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
It seems that once all trains are R-143's only they have a problem and the R-42's return
Thank You
Several of the higher frequency South London services have been branded as "Overground Network" in an attempt to raise awareness of them. There is a web page at:
http://www.overgroundnetwork.com/
With an attractive map.
A step in the right direction, but flawed. Use-without-thinking services don't seem to be on offer:
Its not clear whether trains, platforms, etc. will get a clear branding.
There are still arbitrary and potentially confusing stopping patterns. Just how easy will it be to travel from Barnes to Battersea for instance? The map gives no clues. Just how much is gained by cutting out individual stations such as Penge and Annerley.
How easy is it to get from North Dulwich to Croydon? the map gives no clues as to whether I should attempt to get to this important transport hub or just go into London and down again.
Service frequencies do not apply throughout the operating period. Don't expect reasonable frequencies at evenings and weekends.
Its also interesting that the only non-Underground line shown on the Underground map, the North London Line, is not part of the branding. What are passengers to make of that?
I personally think it would make more sense to colour code differently:
Red: Waterloo
Purple: Victoria (LBSC) and London Bridge
Blue: Holborn Viaduct Thameslink and Victoria (LCD)
Green: Charing Cross and Cannon Street
Really what needs to happen is a fundamental rejig of services to provide a proper metro.
Then why doesn't the map suddenly end after Stoneleigh or Cheam?
As an aside, Greenwich is on one of the newly branded Overground Metro lines. But I wonder how much its tourist trade has already increased anyway, since the Docklands Light Rail was extended there? Quite a lot, I'd guess. DLR has been marketed a lot better than National Rail ever has - DLR is on the tube map, for one thing. And of course being "new and different" always helps.
It is certainly odd that the one National Rail line that *is* on the tube map (the North London) is not one of the first lines to get the new treatment. But maybe Mayor Ken's idea was to concentrate first on parts of South London that have no tube service at all. I'm sure there will be more "Overground" lines getting the treatment - this is just the start.
London's transit system is HUGE compared to Boston's.
AEM7
Most of that eastern end of the Croydon Tramlink uses old railway RoW - the line to Elmers End runs over the old Elmers End-Woodside-Sanderstead line, and the Beckenham Junction to Birkbeck section took one track of the Beckenham-Crystal Palace line (which is now two parallel single tracks, one for National Rail and one for Tramlink). Tne only new RoW at that end is the bit from Arena to Birkbeck, and that runs across a park. To put in an Elmers End-Beckenham Jcn link would have meant finding new RoW through a suburban area, and then building the track. Expensive, you'd have had to fight the NIMBYs, and there's no obvious large source of traffic to justify it. It's a good idea to link Croydon eastwards (there was no rail link in that direction from the centre of Croydon before), Beckenham is a major suburban centre, and Elmers End, while not much of a place in itself, provides a convenient connection to the National Rail's so-called Mid-Kent line to Lewisham and central London. So it was worth building what they did build, but it wouldn't have been worth building the other bit.
The other eastern branch, to New Addington, does have quite a large proportion of new RoW, but New Addington was the largest residential area in the whole of Greater London that had no rail link of any kind before (think Co-op City!).
The normal pattern of service on the Croydon Tramlink is: Monday-Saturday daytimes: Wimbledon-Elmers End 6 tph, Croydon-New Addington 8 tph, Croydon-Beckenham Jcn 6 tph; evenings and Sundays: Wimbledon-Elmers End 2 tph, Wimbledon-Beckenham Jcn 2 tph (hence Wimbledon-Croydon 4 tph), Croydon-New Addington 4 tph.
The red lines show where 4tph runs off-peak. Both Windsor and Hampton Court only get 2tph. Of the 2tph to Windsor, only 1tph stops at Wraysbury or Sunnymeads.
SWT already have a frequency map:
frequency.pdf
Just goes to show that that complex was designed by a moron.
As for "get used to it", how is that attitude going to get people out of their cars?
Information system down at local station? "GET USED TO IT"
Can't work out where to go at Birmingham New St? "GET USED TO IT"
Fine, I will go by car instead.
Use of rail services should be as intuitive and effortless as possible, trouble is that the user interface is usually designed by engineers, who don't have a clue how to make things usuable. Thats one reason why the world needs psychologists, to stop the engineers from making idiots of themselves.
Not as bad as the one in Paris: St-Lazare (3,12,13) - Haussmann-St-Lazare (E) - Havre-Caumartin (3,9) - Auber (A) - Opéra (3,7,8). Line 3 has 3 stops within one complex.
Can't work out where to go at Birmingham New St? "GET USED TO IT"
The best cock-up about New St is the Navigation St entrance/exit. It is the entrance most useful for the City Centre and consequently is only part-time. Also, you invariably find some lost person looking for Platforms 1 or 12 which for some bizarre reason are only accessible by walking onto another platform then up onto the other bridge and down again.
My other favourite is that you can see out from Platform 12 across the Royal Mail's van park onto Station St. However, to get to Station St, one has to walk up into the main concourse (and Platform 12 is the one with no escalator), along the taxi rank, down a rather unsafe staircase and out onto Station St. Fortunately, no-one much wants to go down there anymore, the Bull Ring Bus Station having been demolished.
Oh - and why call a station with no exit onto New St New St Station?
My plan for the West Midlands has Birmingham New St reduced to 6 platforms (current 2-5 plus two on a tube line aligned under Lwr Temple St with a Northern exit at New St) and a new 3-level station built at Birmingham Curzon St (upper level platforms 1-12 Grand Junction Line, Derby Line, Great Western (via Duddeston Viaduct); main level platforms 13-24 Grand Junction Line, WCML, Midland Lines; 25-28 through platforms New St to all lines except Duddeston Viaduct; 29-32 through platforms for a tube line Snow Hill - Midland Local Services).
There has been some recent discussion of a so-called South London Metro with a "turn-up-and-go" service, so I was (perhaps naively) hoping to see some lines with more frequent services.
What I found is that there have been absolutely no changes in the number of trains per hour on any of the lines shown on the map, so that if the map had been based on last winter's services it would look exactly the same as the new map.
Therefore the "Overground Network" is merely a new phrase for the same old services. Rather than actually increase service levels, they have merely drawn a map showing which lines already do, and do not, have four trains per hour.
I agree with Max Roberts about the 'infrequent services from everywhere to everywhere' mentality.
"The ON pilot aims to encourage passengers to make more use of London’s off-peak train services. It will promote consistent standards for service frequency, passenger information and station security and brings investment to upgrade station facilities."
But there have been absolutely no changes in the number of trains per hour on any of the lines shown on the map
I can only suppose and hope that the new services have not yet been implemented; the map shows the present state of affairs.
According to the Strategic Rail Authority (SRA), who should know, the London "Overground Network" is being piloted on the following four lines:
Waterloo to Teddington via Wimbledon
Waterloo to Twickenham via Richmond
Victoria to East and West Croydon via Norbury
London Bridge to Dartford via Greenwich
It just so happens that these four lines already run four trains per hour, so no change is needed to comply with the standard.
However the ON does have other standards, which relate to passenger information and station security.
What really needs to happen is a huge restructuring of the network - even if there can't be changes to the tracks.
Something along the lines of the following would be a good idea (all lines 4tph unless stated):
SOUTH-WESTERN LINES
1 Hounslow Loop Anti-Clockwise
2 Hounslow Loop Clockwise
3 Windsor (via Richmond)
4 Reading (via Richmond)
5 Reading (via Brentford)
6 Kingston Loop Anti-Clockwise
7 Kingston Loop Clockwise
8 Shepperton
9 Dorking (1tph to Portsmouth Harbour and Bognor Regis (split at Barnham), 1tph to Littlehampton)
10 Chessington South
11 Hampton Court
12 Guildford (via Cobham)
13 Woking (Vauxhall, Clapham Jn, Wimbledon, Surbiton, then all stations)
14 Portsmouth Harbour (Vauxhall, Clapham Jn, Wimbledon, Surbiton, Woking, then all stations via Havant)
15 Alton (Vauxhall, Clapham Jn, Wimbledon, Surbiton, Woking, then all stations; 2tph)
16 Basingstoke (Vauxhall, Clapham Jn, Wimbledon, Surbiton, Woking, then all stations; 2tph)
17 Weymouth (Fast; 2tph)
18 Bournemouth (All stops after Southampton Central; 2tph)
19 Exeter St David's (2tph)
20 Bristol Temple Meads (2tph)
S Ascot - Aldershot (2tph)
S Guildford - Aldershot (2tph)
S Salisbury - Eastleigh - Portsmouth Harbour (2tph)
S Salisbury - Southampton Central - Netley - Portsmouth Harbour (2tph)
S Staines - Weybridge (2tph)
SOUTH CENTRAL LINES
21 V - Epsom (2tph to Guildford)
22 V - Tattenham Corner
23 V - W Croydon
24 Watford Jn - Gatwick
25 V - LB (via Crystal Palace)
26 V - LB (via SLL)
27 LB - Beckenham Jn (via Tulse Hill)
28 LB - W Croydon (via Streatham)
29 LB - Reigate (via Crystal Palace; 2tph to Reading)
30 LB - Epsom Downs
31 LB - Caterham
32 LB - Uckfield (2tph)
33 LB - E Grinstead (2tph)
34 LB - Tonbridge (2tph)
35 VC - Brighton (Fast)
36 Bedford - TL - LB - Brighton (Fast)
37 VC - Seaford (2tph)
38 VC - Eastbourne (2tph)
39 VC - Hove - Littlehampton (2tph)
40 VC - Hove - Portsmouth Harbour and Bognor Regis (split) (2tph)
41 LB - Horsham
S Brighton - Lewes - Hastings - Ashford (2tph)
S Brighton - Lewes - Seaford (2tph)
S Southampton Central - Netley - Havant - Brighton (2tph)
CHATHAM LINES
42 Luton - TL - Sutton Loop ACW
43 Luton - TL - Sutton Loop CW
44 Blackfriars - Catford - Ashford
45 Blackfriars - Catford - Sevenoaks
46 V - Herne Hill - Orpington
47 V - Herne Hill - Faversham (2tph to Ramsgate, 2tph to Dover Priory)
48 V - Lewisham - Hayes
49 V - Lewisham - Hither Green - Dartford
S Sittingbourne - Sheerness (2tph)
SOUTH-EASTERN LINES
50 Cannon St - Greenwich - Dartford - Gillingham
51 Cannon St - Lewisham - Slade Green ACW
52 Cannon St - Lewisham - Slade Green CW
53 Cannon St - Lewisham - Dartford - Maidstone W - Paddock Wood - Charing X (Fast) (this direction only)
54 Cannon St - Orpington
55 Charing X - Hayes (Fast)
56 Charing X - Bromley N (Fast)
57 Charing X - Paddock Wood (Fast) - Maidstone W - Dartford - Lewisham - Cannon St (this direction only)
58 Charing X - Tonbridge - Hastings - Ore (2tph)
59 Charing X - Canterbury W - Margate (2tph)
60 Charing X - Dover Priory (2tph)
61 Charing X - Ashford - Hastings - Eastbourne (2tph)
S Ramsgate - Dover Priory (2tph)
Too much here to comment on in detail, but one or two thoughts:
Why do you want Reading via Brentford AND Richmond? Is it because there is not capacity to run 6tph via Richmond? If not, surely a change at Feltham or Richmond would be fine for the few people who want intermediate stations via Brentford.
You've got too many long distance trains calling at Wimbledon, Clapham Junction, and Vauxhall. Are you really sure that this is what the customer wants? On my local trains from Colchester into Liverpool St, there is no clamour for additional stops at Romford and Stratford. Going into London, I rarely find that getting off at Stratford saves me any time, going out I am far less likely to get a seat.
On the South Central, you are still doing too much everywhere to everywhere else. Don't forget that 4tph does not reduce gracefully in the way that 8tph does. I would far rather see:
East Croydon-Crystal Palace-Streatham Interchange-Victoria
West Croydon-Thornton Heath-Streatham Interchange-London Bridge
Sutton West Croydon-Forest Hill-London Bridge
All at 8tph, and 4tp evenings and Sundays
No SLL: SE Victoria trains can take on Clapham High St and Wandsworth Road stops by switching at Tulse Hill, and no Birkbeck/Beckenham Junction service. If Beckenham Junction must have a city destination, build an interchange at Croxted Road with the Peckham Rye Line.
Is the Sutton Loop really the best destination for Thameslink services? Why not Ashford/Sevenoaks?
All other services can run non-stop from Clapham Junction/New Cross to Sutton/East Croydon.
Frequent trains can only be provided if services are not split between two terminals, Victoria and London Bridge. The way to avoid splitting the service is to make all trains on any given line go to just one terminal. That allows you to double the service without running any more trains.
Your proposal would accomplish that by adding a necessary but missing ingredient ... INTERCHANGE STATIONS!
You refer to the "Streatham Interchange", which is I assume a new station that you would build where the line from Victoria to Crystal Palace crosses the line from London Bridge to Sutton, near Tulse Hill.
What I propose is to build not one but three such interchange stations, one at each of the major intersections between Victoria lines and London Bridge. In addition to your "Streatham NE Interchange" there would be a "Streatham SW Interchange", where the London Bridge line via Streatham crosses the Victoria main line, and a "Croydon Tangle Interchange" where the Victoria main line to East Croydon crosses the line from London Bridge via West Croydon.
The general rule would be for local trains to go straight ahead at intersections rather than turn onto connecting spur lines.
The high-frequency local lines in the South Central area would then be:
1. Victoria to Crystal Palace via Streatham NE.
2. Victoria to Smitham via Streatham SW and the Croydon Tangle.
3. London Bridge to Sutton via Streatham SW.
4. London Bridge to Sutton via the Croydon Tangle.
And please feel free to shut down the South London line with its two trains per hour. Nobody travels that line from end to end!
Your Croydon Tangle interchange is a good idea and would serve the role that Norwood Junction almost succeeds in doing far better.
Hackbridge and Carshalton stations have never been good traffic generators, but this is a good fast route to London, and so I would probably extend this metro service: Epsom-Sutton-Streatham-London Bridge, with some peak services extended to Epsom Downs (I've always thought that this line would serve a more useful role if extended to Tattenham Corner).
I would probably add an interchange at Croxted Road where the LB line crosses the SE&C Line, as this gives an alternative route to the City of London.
At 8tph basic off-peak frequency, these four lines would be a winner, and It has never ceased to amaze me why something along these lines has never been implemented.
BTW what is your preferred solution for the Thameslink line?
Problem:
Ldn Bridge 1629
Epsom 1717
Journey time: 48 mins
Victoria 1620
Epsom 1657
Journey time: 27 mins
Waterloo 1630
Epsom 1704
Journey time: 34 mins
Ldn Bridge to Epsom is SO slow (and only 2 trains a day run via Tulse Hill anyway - the others take even longer via W Croydon) that no-one would ride it. I don't know why Victoria works out quicker than Waterloo - it always feels much slower to me.
I would probably add an interchange at Croxted Road where the LB line crosses the SE&C Line, as this gives an alternative route to the City of London.
"This is Herne Hill East. This is the 1430 to Epsom. The next stop is Tulse Hill. Stand clear of the doors."
They really do crawl, especially from London Bridge to Peckham Rye and from Streatham to Hackbridge.
That was the original idea, but for all sorts of reasons involving the landowners' interests, politics, etc., the link between the two lines near Epsom racecourse never got built. I don't know the area, so I don't know whether it is still possible or whether later development (of either the racecourse or housing) now makes it impossible. It's the sort of area where NIMBYs would be strong.
It would probably be quicker (or at least feel quicker) riding the bus into Epsom (IIRC it's the 461), then catching a train to Waterloo or Victoria.
The biggest problem would be immediately after Epsom Downs station. There's a crappy cul-de-sac called Bunbury Way (a street I've always thought should be moved to Worthing) on the site of the old station - the new one has merely been shifted a couple of hundred yards up the line. After that, the land's clear, but God forbid you put it across the Golf Course...
Based on a simplified attempt to quantify the time savings brought about by interchange stations, I have reached the following tentative conclusions. I am assuming that passengers "turn up and go" without aiming to catch a particular timed train.
(a) The average wait would reduced by 25% provided that all trains stopped at the interchange, and regardless of whether or not the services on each line were split between two terminals.
(b) To a large extent, this 25% saving would be offset by the additional time spent stopping and transferring at the intersection.
(c) Overall, stopping at the intersection doesn't make very much difference to average journey times except on very infrequent services, unless trains can be synchronized to reach the intersection at the same time (which I doubt).
The back of my envelope shows that 25% is the average of a 50% saving to those who get the service they want, and a zero saving to the others who wait half as long but for two trains instead of one.
This is also why its a good idea to concentrate each line on one terminal. When going home, say to Crystal Palace, currently I have to choose between Victoria and London Bridge. Better to go to just one of these.
Yes I agree, Max. Most people would not actually use the interchange stations, but some would, so that's okay.
People would adjust their travel habits to take full advantage of the simplified services, but the benefits are difficult to quantify.
N.B. I/ve extended Crystal Palace services to West Croydon. Croydon is such an important destination that stopping trains short would not make much sense.
http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~mjr/SLL.pdf
Three problems.
1) The layout of Sutton station would make it a LOT easier if the W Croydon service went to Epsom Downs, not having the W Croydon service terminate and the Streatham service branch.
2) I don't know quite where you'd fit the North Croydon station. There are a lot of interlockings, huge track curvature and the whole area is rather pinned in by parts of Croydon!
3) Pssst! It's Ewell East on the LBSC (which happens to be the station 10 mins walk from my girlfriend's house), not Ewell West (which was 10 minutes walk from her old house) ;-)
2) See another post. It doesn't look as though it would be impossibly difficult.
3) Thanks.
It would be nice to see 2 tracks on the Epsom Downs branch again...
Random thought - turning Epsom Downs and Tattenham Corner into a loop would be quite a nice idea!
What you have now is just what the South Central portion of a high-frequency Overground Network ought to look like, IMO.
James has made some valid criticisms which you have answered, and I don't see any insuperable difficulties apart from its cost and the inevitable public opposition to change. Whenever some people would be adversely affected, their voices are heard loud and clear, and then it becomes a political issue.
You say the plan could be built cheaply, but I wonder what it would cost to build those interchange stations. They are on railway lands, which should reduce NIMBY opposition and keep costs in check.
Is this scheme is good enough and realistic enough to be worth proposing to the authorities? It would do no harm, and at least it might start them thinking in a new direction. The real authority is of course the Strategic Rail Authority. The Overground Network falls under the SRA, but is perhaps more interested in publicity ("branding") than in substantive changes.
Good point: I have just sent the following letter (along with the map) to Ken Livingstone, TfL, and Rail magazine...
****************************************
Although "Overground Network" is a step in the right direction, it is really not enough. Services every fifteen minutes during the daytime reduce to unattractive 30 minute intervals late evenings and Sundays, which compares poorly with any genuine Metro system including the London Underground.
The problem is particularly acute on the South Central division where the 19th Century "run infrequent trains from everywhere to everywhere else" principle is still much in evidence. Poor reliability and reluctance by potential passengers to use the over-complex services is the inevitable consequence. Part of the problem stems from the perceived need to serve two London destinations for every branch (London Bridge and Victoria) which reduces frequencies and increases confusion.
However, there is an alternative. The various lines cross, but frequently without interchange stations. If new stations were constructed at Streatham North, Streatham South, South Norwood, and North Croydon, giving easy interchanges between branches, a core network of high frequency end-to-end services could be offered. Passengers would then be able to reach any destination on the network with minimal difficulty.
I have attached an example of what would be possible, showing core high frequency services (8 trains per hour Monday-Friday off-peak) with standard stopping patterns. With these routes set as priorities, track layouts can be optimised to promote speed, which is somewhat lacking on many routes these days.
Trains serving these lines would be clearly branded and signed, so that passengers could have absolute confidence in using them. Thameslink would be a separately branded service, and the South London Line Victoria-London Bridge services would cease (Clapham and Wandsworth Road can be served by diverting South Eastern services at Denmark Hill). Other long distance services would stop only at the extremities of the network: Clapham Junction, New Cross Gate, Croydon, Sutton, and Epsom.
Although some expense would be incurred in constructing the new stations, actual operating costs would be unlikely to be more than currently. Something along these lines is the only genuine long-term solution to South London's rail problems, and so the sooner moves are made towards this, the better.
It certainly deserves to be published, and I hope it gets the attention of the authorities.
Do please keep us posted on any responses that you may get.
Congratulations on your initiative.
***********************************
Dear Dr Roberts
Thank you for your e-mail with the attachment concerning the problems of
rail services in South London and ways in which the situation can be
improved.
Your point of view on the situation is understandable and this area
certainly needs to be addressed as soon as possible.
Unfortunately because National Rail is privatised it is also outside of
Transport for London's jurisdiction. Hence these issues are best answered by
either the train operator or the Strategic Rail Authority. Please refer to
the following links for further contact:
www.sra.gov.uk
www.southcentraltrains.co.uk
Nevertheless, Transport for London are committed to pressing for
improvements on the railways, so I have forwarded your e-mail to the London
Rail team and if there is any feedback they would like to add, you will be
contacted in due course.
Regards
Jasmine Howard
Customer Relations
Regards
If you have any more correspondence on your plan, I suggest you emphasize that (by means of interchange stations) it provides double the service with no extra trains. That makes it sound like an offer that they cannot refuse!
On a related topic, one which I am sure interests you, TfL London Rail say the following of "Thameslink 2000":
"TfL feel that Thameslink 2000 in its present form may be a lost opportunity in terms of delivering the Mayor's Strategy for Metro quality services in inner London. There are also concerns as to whether the planned infrastructure can deliver 24 tph reliably through the centre section due to station dwell times and lack of spare capacity. The planned mixed service pattern makes delivery of a regular and reliable metro service through central London difficult to achieve.
In June 2000 London Transport produced a report into the impact of the project, which, whilst noting a number of benefits, concluded that the majority of these originate from outside London due to the strong emphasis on outer suburban services. These concerns are still valid and TfL wished to establish the degree to which the proposed service pattern will meet London needs. Consequently a 2nd study was carried out in late 2002 to cover all aspects of South London service planning and the role of Thameslink 2000 in it. No recommendations arising out of this study can be pursued, pending the final decision of the ODPM on the planning aspects of the project."
I for one share their misgivings. I don't know if the second study has been published, but it should make interesting reading.
One very good thing about Thameslink 2000 is that it would eliminate the notorious bottleneck through London Bridge.
Streatham South would be very close to Streatham Common, probably meaning the latter should close.
Oh and why stop at Smitham? Why not include the Caterham branch as well?
If you aim for these clearly marked trains, you can be sure that they will go where you expect them to go, they will stop at every station, and you will not have to wait too long for the next train.
What you could have is an army of painters/vinyl cutters who work at Purley station, and for every southbound train they cover up/peel off the "South London Metro" logos, and for every train going northbound, they reattach them or uncover them. Might add a few minutes to the schedule though.
Not at all. Service frequencies always drop off significantly towards the end of lines. I would suggest more of a 50-50 split of the 8tph between Caterham and Tattenham Corner. It's no worse than service on the outlying parts of the Metropolitan Line.
There is no point introducing a Metro service with small print. 4tph or better throughout the working day, seven days a week has to be the advertising catchline. In retrospect I should should not have included Epsom Downs on the network, nor Beckenham Junction unless it can offer 4tph. This services must be easy to use, separately branded, and what they claim to be, otherwise the current non-rail users of South London simply won't go near them. Smitham is a useful turnback point because it is in the London zonal system and the area is reasonably built up. Epsom is a useful interchange station, and Londoners are likely to want to travel there.
Don't forget the purpose of this exercise is to inspire confidence in and increase usage of a tainted run-down railway. Exceptions to the rule that the London Underground can get away with in a few locations will not work on what would be a major psychological exercise. Remember the Connex "Overground Underground" and "South London Metro" none of these worked because they did not deliver metro services.
Not all trains go to Cockfosters. Some turn at Arnos Grove.
Not all trains go to Morden. Some turn at Kennington. (And, yes, Bank branch trains as well).
Edgware is at a point after the service has already been split.
Okay, it is not the case that service frequencies always drop off towards the end of lines (eg both terminals on the Waterloo & City Line spring to mind), but it certainly tends to happen, especially where a fan of branches is at the end of the line, and there is undisputably less demand at the far out stations, so it is fair for them to receive less service.
The Metropolitan Line is a historical accident.
The entire British Railway system could be seen in those terms.
Personally, I don't think that LT should be servicing Rickmansworth and beyond, and after the locals see the proposed general surface line replacement stock, they won't want it to either.
Personally I disagree. I'd like to see the LT boundary shifted significantly outwards (creating Zones 7-10) to reflect the increased number of people involved in the life of the capital.
A generic surface stock is a bloody good idea. As long as it isn't as bad as C stock to ride, then it'll all be okay.
There is no point introducing a Metro service with small print. 4tph or better throughout the working day, seven days a week has to be the advertising catchline. In retrospect I should should not have included Epsom Downs on the network, nor Beckenham Junction unless it can offer 4tph.
Two instances of lines that should not have been singled.
Beckenham Jn can probably only take 2-3tph, given that Crystal Palace to Beckenham Jn takes 7-9 mins.
Epsom Downs can do 2tph at best. Sutton to Epsom Downs is a 10-12 minute journey.
The small print is sometimes necessary. However, if overall service, say reduced to 4tph in late evening, I think it would be a better service to make the Crystal Palace - Beckenham Jn section a 4tph shuttle.
This services must be easy to use, separately branded, and what they claim to be, otherwise the current non-rail users of South London simply won't go near them.
In their core area. Take for example the Birmingham Cross-City Line. Its trains are easily recognisable and they run 6tph all day from Longbridge on the Southern edge of the City to Four Oaks near the Northern edge. This doesn't mean that certain trains don't go further. 2tph continue South into Worcestershire (beyond Centro's zones), 4tph continue North into Staffordshire (again, beyond Centro's zones). There is (was?) even one strange working that runs as a local train from Four Oaks to Birmingham New St then becomes a Semi-Fast train to Liverpool! The branding within the core area shouldn't stop the trains continuing elsewhere where useful. Nor should the maps lie and tell commuters that the trains terminate at one station when in fact some continue. The section beyond the urban metro stretch should be indicated, at least with a thin line.
Smitham is a useful turnback point because it is in the London zonal system and the area is reasonably built up.
The rest of the line is relatively built up too these days. Chipstead could be described as a bit in the middle of nowhere, but the rest of the line is a real suburban line.
All you achieve by turning trains short at Smitham is an extra chance to screw up the railway. There is no turnback siding at Smitham, so basically a reverse move has to be done on through lines. This really limits through service. Furthermore, it totally screws Woodmansterne, which too is in Zone 6. If you look at the track diagram, Chipstead is marginally better designed to turn trains, if any need to turn short at all.
Epsom is a useful interchange station, and Londoners are likely to want to travel there.
Londoners only want to go to Epsom on Derby Day. Then they lay on huge numbers of Routemasters to ferry people from Epsom Station to the Racecourse. The reason no Londoner would go to Epsom otherwise lies in the fact that it is beyond the numbered zones and consequently expensive to get to. Personally, I think it's high time the boroughs of Epsom & Ewell and Reigate & Banstead were moved into Greater London. It might give Steve Norris a chance of being mayor.
Don't forget the purpose of this exercise is to inspire confidence in and increase usage of a tainted run-down railway. Exceptions to the rule that the London Underground can get away with in a few locations will not work on what would be a major psychological exercise.
You can get away with such exceptions if the exceptions themselves are improvements. Plus the further out you get, the further from the public eye you are.
Remember the Connex "Overground Underground" and "South London Metro" none of these worked because they did not deliver metro services.
Exactly. But neither of them really tried, did they? And to be honest, nor are TfL now.
Not all trains go to Morden. Some turn at Kennington. (And, yes, Bank branch trains as well).
Edgware is at a point after the service has already been split."
LU advertises a minimum 10-minute frequency "all the way out to the end of the line" at all times (i.e. including Sunday evenings). That doesn't mean that all Piccadillys go to Cockfosters or all Northerns to Morden, just that at least 6 tph do. This advert begs the question of "what is the end of the line?", since the midday offpeak frequency on Woodford-Hainault is 20 minutes! I also doubt if Acton Town-Rayners Lane has a minimum 10-minute frequency either, or Mill Hill East.
Well it's 10-15 mins before 8am on a Saturday and 15-20 mins before 9am on a Sunday, but at all other times it's at least a 10 minute frequency.
or Mill Hill East.
That bottoms out at every 15 minutes (on Sundays). Annoyingly that's every 30 mins via Bank and every 30 mins via Charing X. Even stupider is the off-peak frequency of every 13½ mins. The peak frequency of every 12 mins is the best it does.
A frequent service, with plenty of standing room, is best suited to the needs of the densely populated inner suburbs, but the more sparsely populated outer areas are better served by less frequent trains with more seats, not stopping at all stations.
The Tattenham Corner and Caterham lines are in outer areas in that have always had faster trains, and I think that's where they belong. Smitham may not be the ideal place for to terminate the purple line, especially if it lacks the capacity to turn many trains. Unfortunately Coulsdon North no longer exists, but your purple line could perhaps be cut back to Purley.
The line from Crystal Palace to Beckenham Junction could become part of the Croydon tramlink; that is under consideration.
If the Epsom Downs branch has only one track it should probably be a shuttle service.
I think you were right to leave out those meandering lines that Thameslink inherited from Holborn Viaduct, because they probably would never generate enough traffic to merit a core service.
Your map illustrates the concept; you didn't put it forward as the definitive plan, and people can always argue over details.
If you were talking about West Sussex, then you'd be right, but Reigate & Banstead hasn't been a rural backwater for a long time.
The Tattenham Corner and Caterham lines are in outer areas in that have always had faster trains, and I think that's where they belong. Smitham may not be the ideal place for to terminate the purple line, especially if it lacks the capacity to turn many trains. Unfortunately Coulsdon North no longer exists, but your purple line could perhaps be cut back to Purley.
None of those are really great places to terminate a large number of trains whilst maintaining a through service.
Places where large numbers of slow line trains could terminate easily are really limited to these few once you're past East Croydon:
- Caterham
- Tattenham Corner
- East Grinstead
- Uckfield (although this line isn't electrified and gets most of the way to Lewes)
- Gatwick Airport
Caterham and Tattenham Corner's traditional service is an accident of history: the lines were built by the SER, but the only access was over the LBSCR, so they simply were not the Brighton company's local trains. It's also why some of these trains still go to Charing X.
All these supposedly fast trains do is screw people at stops further in and discourage ridership.
The line from Crystal Palace to Beckenham Junction could become part of the Croydon tramlink; that is under consideration.
Tramlink is a failure. It's losing nearly as much as Midland Metro.
If the Epsom Downs branch has only one track it should probably be a shuttle service.
Better still, re-double the line, at least to Banstead.
I think you were right to leave out those meandering lines that Thameslink inherited from Holborn Viaduct, because they probably would never generate enough traffic to merit a core service.
London Bridge to Wimbledon might work. It's that St Helier line that's totally useless.
In the meantime, there is no point running endless empty trains. Low population density equals fewer people who are richer and more likely to have more cars.
Plenty of space around Smitham station for additional facilities, or an industrial estate just to the South which could be used as a site for a new station. This is going to be an all-stations service don't forget, and as you said yourself, even with today's semi-fast services, Tattenham Corner residents are better off going to Epsom.
- A South - West curve at Redhill (ie not stopping at Redhill Station).
- A line from West of Reigate Northwards with a station "Reigate Parkway" linked to Junction 8 of the M25 joining the Tattenham Corner branch just before Tadworth.
- Put the Tattenham Corner Branch into a tunnel just South of Tattenham Corner station and have a new underground Epsom Downs station at the Racecourse. Continue the tunnel Northwards with a triangular junction, the Eastern branch of which would emerge just East of the current Epsom Downs station (a replacement station at Nork could be constructed at the Reigate Rd). The main line tunnel would continue Northwards under Longdown La, Epsom College's grounds, Alexandra Rd and the Upper High St to merge into the LBSC near to the site of the former Epsom Town station.
- A line diverging halfway between Epsom and Ashtead, running through the private woodland between Epsom Common and Ashtead Common then along the preexisting embankment into Chessington South.
- A West curve at Raynes Park.
- A West curve at Twickenham
And there you have it. Gatwick to Reading via Reigate, Tadworth, Epsom Downs, Epsom, Chessington, Malden, Kingston and Virginia Water.
Other gains are an Epsom Downs loop service and a sensible routing for West Croydon - Epsom (- Guildford).
How?
http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?X=533000&Y=167000&width=700&height=400&client=public&gride=534013&gridn=164663&srec=0&coordsys=gb&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&scale=25000&advanced=&multimap.x=385&multimap.y=176
There might be a bit of rerouting needed but its not rocket science
Come back Trent, all is forgiven....
As a station name it would certainly be unique, and self-explanatory to anyone who can read a map.
I think you are right about the minimal need for local access, and there appears to be some kind of laneway there already.
Now all Croydon needs is a Main Line. ;-)
(Well, it could do with a Central station too, but that's not so amusing.)
One of the good things SWT did was to start running trains regularly from Brentford and Hounslow to Reading. I would now extend this to all stops. Reading is of HUGE importance in trying to get anywhere North or West of London (think Cross-Country and the GW Main Line).
You've got too many long distance trains calling at Wimbledon, Clapham Junction, and Vauxhall.
The point of this is that each stop loses only about a minute, but if you are running trains 2½ minutes apart, you don't want anyone catching up their leader.
If you think about each of those stations, they are relatively useful in terms of connections:
- Woking (for Guildford)
- Surbiton (for a bus to Kingston - grrr Kingston really could do with some better railway lines - there should be reverse curves added so Kingston-Woking/Cobham and Kingston-Chessington/Epsom can be done!)
- Wimbledon (for the District Line - especially the Edgware Road Branch)
- Clapham Junction (for the WLL and the LBSC)
- Vauxhall (for the Victoria Line - try to get to King's Cross or St Pancras without an extra change any other way!)
Are you really sure that this is what the customer wants?
I'd rather have some people sit through an extra stop or two than have others having to double back.
On my local trains from Colchester into Liverpool St, there is no clamour for additional stops at Romford and Stratford.
That's probably because Stratford doesn't really serve any different market from Liverpool St. Both are Central Line stations. The Jubilee Line alignment is so crap it's unbelievable.
Going into London, I rarely find that getting off at Stratford saves me any time, going out I am far less likely to get a seat.
Whereas I find Vauxhall is quicker, even for Euston. Likewise, if I want to be at Hi-Ken or Pad, Wimbledon is quicker than going to Waterloo.
On the South Central, you are still doing too much everywhere to everywhere else.
To an extent it is necessary. If you had all LB-W Croydon and V-E Croydon, it becomes practically impossible to do V-W Croydon or LB-E Croydon. The fairest scheme is close to 50-50, remembering that there is more track capacity to Victoria than London Bridge because of the stupid approaches to LB station.
East Croydon-Crystal Palace-Streatham Interchange-Victoria
West Croydon-Thornton Heath-Streatham Interchange-London Bridge
Ah, a Secaucus Transfer style station! I like the idea. The disadvantage is that that needs new construction. My plan could run without any modifications to structures (I've got another that completely reworks the London Bridge area, various parts of the SC, and 6-tracks the SW Main Line).
Is the Sutton Loop really the best destination for Thameslink services? Why not Ashford/Sevenoaks?
I really don't know on that one. It's easily flippable regardless. The advantage of the Sutton Loop is that it connects to everything. The disadvantage is that it's so goddamned slow that no-one in their right mind would ever ride it!
No SLL: SE Victoria trains can take on Clapham High St and Wandsworth Road stops by switching at Tulse Hill
That does make sense - although you lose LB-V service then.
and no Birkbeck/Beckenham Junction service.
That's one of the lines that makes the interchanges easy. (I very nearly put in a New Beckenham - Beckenham Jn shuttle in, but it would have nowhere to turn at the New Beckenham end.
All other services can run non-stop from Clapham Junction/New Cross to Sutton/East Croydon.
Remember the Fast Lines on each route have a capacity of 12tph.
JaMES: To an extent it is necessary. If you had all LB-W Croydon and V-E Croydon, it becomes practically impossible to do V-W Croydon or LB-E Croydon. The fairest scheme is close to 50-50, remembering that there is more track capacity to Victoria than London Bridge because of the stupid approaches to LB station.
Me: Immediate reaction is "Does this matter? Croydon is Croydon." But of course there is the problem that the bus station is at West Croydon while the good Tramlink connections, and the faster mainline train services to Gatwick, Brighton, etc., are at East Croydon, so I guess you do need connections to both. Now if they could just shift the bus station to East Croydon.......
Croydon is Croydon, but if every LB train went to W Croydon, they'd have a hell of a time getting to, say, Redhill.
What might be a good idea would be to build a tunnel under Croydon Town Centre (or even better - an el over it!), hugely expand East Croydon station and run everything into that.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
These numbers are total trains per hour, off-peak.
South Western lines: Waterloo changes from 40 to 66.
South Central lines: Victoria changes from 28 to 32 and London Bridge changes from 20 to 40.
Chatham lines: Victoria changes from 8 to 16 and Blackfriars changes from 6 to 16.
South Eastern lines: Charing Cross changes from 16 to 20 and Cannon Street changes from 10 to 20.
I do not see the line to Dartford via Eltham, or the one from Waterloo to Epsom. But you have added Victoria to Hayes and Victoria to Dartford via Hither Green among others.
In many cases you are doubling the suburban services while leaving long-distance mostly unchanged.
I suppose you know that many, if not most, of your off-peak suburban service levels exceed the present rush-hour service!
:-D Yes, that was intentional!
South Central lines: Victoria changes from 28 to 32 and London Bridge changes from 20 to 40.
I hope I haven't buggered up and send 40 to London Bridge, as only 24 would fit across the interlockings South-East of the station!
South Eastern lines: Charing Cross changes from 16 to 20 and Cannon Street changes from 10 to 20.
Yes - this is a service improvement. Only 20 can go to Charing Cross if Thameslink takes 4. Therefore the rest have to terminate somewhere. Cannon St is as good as anywhere.
I do not see the line to Dartford via Eltham
Sorry, I wasn't explicit enough: numbers 53 and 57.
or the one from Waterloo to Epsom.
Number 9.
But you have added Victoria to Hayes and Victoria to Dartford via Hither Green among others.
These take advantage of the track layout at Lewisham. I don't expect anyone would ride Victoria all the way to Hayes, but certainly Vic-Lewisham and Lewisham-Hayes are necessary.
In many cases you are doubling the suburban services while leaving long-distance mostly unchanged.
That's the basic plan. Just a few tweaks here and there in the longer distance ones - mainly a few extra stops.
I suppose you know that many, if not most, of your off-peak suburban service levels exceed the present rush-hour service!
Yes, I do know. Trains don't magically disappear between the rush hours, so one might as well use them to provide a decent service.
Hopefully, with flexi-time and decent off-peak service, the majority of people will end up not working 9(:30)-5(:30).
I hope I haven't buggered up and send 40 to London Bridge, as only 24 would fit across the interlockings South-East of the station!
Those 40 trains to London Bridge include 16 that go via Peckham Rye. I seem to remember that they have their own separate tracks, and if so the remaining 24 are within the capacity of the interlockings, but only just!
You obviously have access to a lot of data on line capacities, terminal capacities, track layouts and so forth. If you have an on-line source for any of this data I would very much like to know it. Failing which, any publications that I might be able to get (from abroad).
Here's something else that you are sure to know. How many cars per train run these days on the various London suburban lines; and do they run shorter trains in the off-peak hours. I know the South Eastern lines were extended from 8 to 10-car trains in the 1950's after an experiment with double-deckers, but most of the other lines continued to run 8-car trains. My recollections are hazy and about 50 years out of date.
And one more thing that is probably not even in the public domain; any ridership data or source of ridership data.
Any answers would be greatly appreciated.
You're totally right.
You obviously have access to a lot of data on line capacities, terminal capacities, track layouts and so forth. If you have an on-line source for any of this data I would very much like to know it. Failing which, any publications that I might be able to get (from abroad).
The best publication for track layouts is Railway Track Diagrams: England South and London Underground, at £7.95 on amazon.co.uk. It doesn't seem to be on the American site. Of course this publication is best used with a map of what's really there on the ground as it is schematic and only shows the railway lines.
Here's something else that you are sure to know. How many cars per train run these days on the various London suburban lines; and do they run shorter trains in the off-peak hours. I know the South Eastern lines were extended from 8 to 10-car trains in the 1950's after an experiment with double-deckers, but most of the other lines continued to run 8-car trains.
Trains vary in length by line. In London they are generally 8 cars long, with some 10s and 12s, but also one or two 4s and 6s. Midday shortening doesn't happen anywhere I know of any more - I think they realised it was more effort to split the trains than to just leave them at 8 cars all day.
And one more thing that is probably not even in the public domain; any ridership data or source of ridership data.
No way I know of getting that...
The lack of ridership data is unfortunate, because one doesn't really know which lines are most in need of better services.
About train lengths, if peak-hour service were to operate all day with full-length trains, power consumption would increase, but it might not matter much because it's off-peak electricity.
That's interesting - I'm not familiar with current operations on much of the Southern Electric, but Thameslink is definitely different - peak hour trains are always eight cars unless there are unserviceable cars, whereas four-car trains are often run in the offpeak. Trains are divided (or joined) in the platform at Bedford after terminating there, and any spare cars taken off to Bedford sidings. I don't know what happens at the southern end of Thameslink. At Blackfriars, one can see the Catford Loop trains, and they are often only 2 or 3 cars offpeak these days.
No wonder people prefer to go from Herne Hill. The SE lines have always been better run than SC. They have to be, any carelessness or stupidity and A LOT of people would be made very upset.
The problem's more the frequency, not the routing.
New York City, before the Manny B fell to bits. Both the Brighton Line and the 4th Av Express had access to both Broadway and 6th Av. In that case, it didn't make as much sense as in London as Broadway and 6th Av are WAY closer than Ldn Bridge and Victoria.
This level of complexity occurs on just a tiny proportion of the network, and the trend with time has been to simplify and group services, especially off-peak. Take the ABCD North of 145st for example.
Even in South Brooklyn, only 1 of the five branches currently offer a choice of destination, and none of them do at weekends. Will this change to more than 2 of the 5 post-bridge reopening?
Both main branches offer the choice, the 4th Av Line on weekends too. Looking way out at sub-branches, you can see the same lack of choice on the South Central. The stations between Dorking and Horsham only have service to Victoria, for instance.
Hence, Ealing Broadway and Richmond are served frequently but have only one destination, likewise Heathrow and Rayners Lane. Easy interchange gives all the flexibility without putting service reliability at risk.
If the Beckenham Junction Branch went anywhere more sensible without conflicting movements, such as Orpington, then we could have something really nice: 8tph West Croydon to Victoria via Crystal Palace, and 8tph Orpington to London Bridge via Crystal Palace. If one of the CP line stations could be made more hospitable, that would give an excellent flexible service from the point of view of passengers. Currently, there is no gain in adding this complexity even if the Beckenham stub could cope with this.
James: Yes, I do know. Trains don't magically disappear between the rush hours, so one might as well use them to provide a decent service.
James: Hopefully, with flexi-time and decent off-peak service, the majority of people will end up not working 9(:30)-5(:30).
Me: Trains may not disappear between the rushes, but they need staff, and if you run more trains you need more drivers, who carry a price tag. Some of James's suggestions seem to be creating extra frequency for the sake of tidiness rather than on the basis of any obvious trafic. That said, I'm all in favour of increased services, and evidence from the Thameslink services out to Luton and Bedford suggests that good offpeak frequencies will lead to good patronage.
Peace,
ANDEE
Has anyone seen or downloaded the "package?" Email above works if anyone happens to have a copy. The concept of FULL SCREEN is enticing if it was more than a rumor, even if it's broken ... :)
Thanks for at least confirming I'm not as addled as I feel. Heh.
Kewl! Any provision to use a K-35 controller and a straight-air brakestand hooked up to a serial port? :)
But I grew up with two-fisted operation, and that GP-40 thing that's being sold by "RailDriver" just doesn't cut it for subways. What I'd done for my own playing around with (R44 slide pot doober) demonstrated that it'd work with the joystick port ... but the "RS232" supported by BVE isn't compatible with ANYTHING other than a now defunct controller that was based on the JR-103 controller, which is every bit as much out of place with NYCTA style controls. For US$175, it was never worth it.
I'm currently playing wiht a USB-based joystick along with BVE and it works just fine. Looks like the way to go ... hook up an electrolux to your pants, and you'll have all the hissing you can stand. :)
Anyway I understand final BVE3.0 is on the verge of coming out soon, I don't know if that means next week or 2 months from now. 2.9 doesn't really have any problems, it just doesn't have all the 3.0 feautres put in. Also a few cab's don't show right on BVE2.9 they show blue or something. This feature apparently has been redesigned so there isn't any limitations anymore and new features for cab designers(don't understand it myself, never attempted to create my own train). All the NYCT's trains come out with no problems though.
Just go to BVE's main site, hit the teacup, all the beta info and link is on the very bottom. Might want to use babelfish or other translator to see what it says. It sounds like 3.0 is almost here though(1 to 300 days left).
Also, the huge download is .NET which your going to need for the final version anyway, thankfully BVE is still under a meg download which is what makes it so good.
The improvement which is in the midst of BVE releasing
After releasing, hearing the demand of everyone, it is the place where it improves.
The next generation BVE
BVE which presently is developed is introduced.
.........
It says 2003 still at least. I guess somethings up to take the BETA offline.
Different than the full screen in the current version of BVE?
The view is actually a little bigger than full screen, you need to hit 2 to look down at the bottommost portion of the "dashboard" and 8 to look up to the top of the window. most of the time the default is fine anyway.
Right now the whole view fits into to about 4/5's of the screen I would guess whereas the new one is like 6/5ths.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I wish him well :-)
AEM7
"Who's Movin??...."
LOL
He's made some recent postings. I believe it is safe to assume that he would have said something if he'd gotten a job. And he definitely would have said something if he'd snagged a Mystical Chik!
Joe Butler
Basing my opinion on my experiences railfanning with John, I'd guess that he would consider you to be a Subtalker with an unpronouncible handle.
AEM7
No it isn't.
Yes it is. How else would you pronounce WAMATAGO? Some letters are silent: WMATAGMOAGH
AEM7
All 3 local stations featured "Breaking News", with feeds from several NYC stations/network affiliates.
The crash was leads on both 6 and 11 PM newscasts, including Bloomy's conference on both.
The Newport News? Dunno, I'm not from Virginia.
Mark
BTW, one poster yesterday mentioned that cars have been banned from the SI Ferries since 9/11. Why??
Does anyone already HAVE, or can someone take a camcorder and SHOOT the line in both directions from Sprague to Short Beach from the RIGHT side of a trolleycar for me on VHS? Whole route (I've got the track maps already) in FIXED focus, no movement side to side from a rapid transit motorman's view of the right side of the car out the window? I can adjust it to the left for trolley as well as center of car in the finals, and happen to have a Shelburne Falls Trolley car #10, which is remarkably similar to the ConnCo cars "train.dat" file, in addition to an arnine cab I've worked on until I got too busy to continue last year.
If someone can send me a VHA of the route out and back, I'd be happy to build a BRANFORD BVE route, complete with trolley and RT if someone can get me video of what I've been unable to get back down there and bag myself. From that, I'll render the line and the artwork and do it over the winter. Both ways.
If someone else can get me STRAIGHT ON photographs of the buildings and wayside attractions (gotta be FLAT so I can use them, sides, fronts, etc) be happy to throw in real 3D renderings of the actual wayside as photos along the way. Also need to know the grade values since all I have is the trackmaps, and they don't show the grade percentages of Riverside curve ...
But if someone can do this for me and get me a videotape and some JPG/GIF/BMP shots, I'd be happy to whip up a BVE route of Branford if anyone's interested ... for now though, off to sleep ... me toast. :)
Just thinking of those long cold nights where 1 1/2 miles might start get a little boring.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm sure it's quite a treat for folks from the city to see what could almost pass for a farm though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Usual trip home around 9:45 PM A to Broadway Junction switch to L.
I have studied the timetables available. They show C trains arriving at Jay St. at 9:48 and 9:59. A trains arrive at 9:40, 9:50, 10:01. At least that's the schedule.
Got to Jay St. platform at 9:48. Just then a C train arrived. Knowing the schedule shows an A train is due in a minute or two, I let it go.
Well lo and behold, no A train shows up at 9:50. As a matter of fact, the next train that shows up is a C train at 9:58. What happened to the 9:50 A train? Well knowing the next A train is due in 3 minutes, I let that C go too figuring if there was a serious delay on the A, there would be annoucements.
Well the A train shows up relatively on time, get on it but suddenly we are held at Hoyt Schermerhorn for several minutes. Then the annoucement is made that due to a slow moving maintenance train on the express track, we would be going down the local track...stopping only at express stops. But of course the delay, meant to establish a gap behind the C train meant the express would not be able to pass the C train I let go.
Now I was simply following the information I have from the timetables. I know the attitude of some is always take the C train, even if it means a delay of 6 or 7 minutes. Remember, I still have to deal with switching to another train so every minute counts.
While I understand a normal system of signs, something that London Underground has had for years, is still several years away, I still believe it would not have been hard for the train dispatcher at Jay St. to announce that the next service on the downtown express track is 7 or 8 stations away (his board shows that, right) and that passengers for express stops up to Euclid are advised to take the C train.
That is a service oriented solution. Again, just reporting and I've been criticized before by some on this board for having the nerve to expect proper information to make an informed decision of whether to take the C train at 10 PM at night. Well I tried to make an informed decisin based on the timetables and I still got screwed; at least I think so.
Yes I've brought this matter up before and I will continue to bring it up along with a complaint to the MTA of why it is so hard to make annoucements when the local arrives at Jay St. if there is no other service showing on the board in the next 8 or 9 minutes, especially late at night.
Just a humble passenger
On a positive note, at least we didn't have the usual nonsense on the L at E 105 St. as they are very slow moving trains out and think nothing of having the revenue passengers wait 5 or 6 minutes. Understandable at 4 PM when trains run very closely bunched, no so understandable at 10:15 at night. So things could have been worse, I guess.
True, the body count is far lower, and for that we can be thankful. But, it just feels the same as Malbone Street.
Once again, we don't know "what he did."
Personally, until the FACTS are in, I find it difficult to blame the "pilot" of the ferry for what happened until some form of impairment *is* demonstrated ... and since this person made a suicide attempt and ended up in the hospital in critical condition, I'm CERTAIN that adequate blood samples (and other samples) were taken which will answer or disprove THAT issue ...
I posted in a couple of other threads the details of how the propulsion system on the boat functioned, how it provided BETTER control than most boats, and how *I* suspect that a sudden gust of wind MIGHT have forced the boat off course, a correction was made, and PERHAPS the wind suddenly died out, causing a PRUDENT correction to accidentally become an OVER correction. Gale force winds CAN be unpredictable, ESPECIALLY in such a tight spot as the berth.
What I'm saying is that the IRONY might be comparable to Malbone - the "pilot" wandering off with the OTHER walking wounded, going home and attempting suicide, or otherwise "going mental" ... but that's where it ENDS ... Luciano and the Malbone wreck was s situation of INCOMPETANCE ... NOT so here ...
As I said after WTC, and after AirTrain, "here's what *I* think, but let's WAIT until the PROFESSIONALS examine the situation and issue a real report" ... we're NOT dealing with an inexperienced operator in a labor dispute who was not qualified nor experienced, and shouldn't have BEEN there in the first place. HERE, we have an experienced pilot with years upon years of heavy winds, cross-currents and meteorolgical issues they've seen and dealt with before ... we might VERY well have had a situation of a "freak wind" that blew the boat off course, "pilot" moved the direction of thrust anticipating hitting the OTHER pier, (tight space there) and then suddenly have the REASON for the thrust suddenly die out, MADE the maneuver properly and it was just too late.
Folks gotta understand that BOATS, LIKE TRAINS, don't stop on a dime. Nor do they reverse direction in a microsecond. Sometimes the plain old tired laws of meteorology and physics apply, and they *ARE* immutable. With experience comes anticipation ... occasionally the INEXPERIENCED aren't fooled by experience ... and sometimes the other way around ... let's not ASSUME negligence ... I've only run a few boats, but I've run QUITE a few trains. There are times when you do everything RIGHT ... and the EQUIPMENT screws up ... or worse, "ain't any leaves on the tracks, but I still slid a quarter mile" ... CHIT HAPPENS ...
Let's see what NTSB figures out here before we start coiling rope ... SAVE that damned rope for the politicos ... after winter, it be HUNTING SEASON! :)
Well thought out post. All too often folks (and I include myself), are looking to jump to conclusions. Waiting for those with the knowledge and experience to review all the evidence is always a wise course of action.
Thanks for giving us some other, less sensational, possibilities
Basically, the accident there (a test train derailing on a curve at high speed) was caused directly by operator error. The ultimate cause (ie why did the operator do what he did) is the next question. No part of the train or infrastructure malfunctioned; the speed governor had been purposefully disabled for the test.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This was an experienced pilot who fell prey to so-far unknown forces, whether personal, natural, or both. There is no issue of labor strife or incomptence, and so far no equipment issue.
Luciano fled the scene in a daze. This man, with a less extreme horror than what Luciano experienced, fled to his home and attempted suicide. Barring willful negligence, my heart goes out to all the victims and their families, including the pilot and his family.
A better comparison might be the Northfield disaster in 1901, when that SIRT ferry was rammed and sunk by the B&O ferry Mauch Chunk. Five were killed and the City used the accident as a pretext to take over the SIRT ferries and also ban the B&O from Whitehall Street.
HISTORIANS? EXPERTS? Is what I heard actually TRUE?!?!?!?!?
Hmmmm, Brian Cudahy's book didn't say anything about that ... there had been an alignment change, of which Luciano probably had no knowledge, but the fact remains that he had received only a minimal amount of training and practice.
All five cars were wooden. That was normal practice at the time. What was not normal practice, however, was that the two unpowered trailer cars in the consist were coupled together. This created an unstable point given these cars' much lower weight as compared to the three powered cars. In fact, the derailment occurred at the point where the two trailers were coupled, and it was in those cars (the second and third from the head end) where most of the deaths happened, maybe even all.
Most likely the staffing problems caused by the strike were the reason for the nonstandard consist arrangement.
On the other hand, it was claimed that he did have a single run-through on the Brighton Line and also the fact that he was approaching Prospect Park too fast even if he expected a straight eun.
Also virtually unexamined is the fact that he made a moderately complicated run on the Culver Line completely without incident, showing that he had some competence to operate the train, if not any level of expertise.
I consider Luciano's actions to still be a matter of discussion.
As a counterpoint, however, there's also Luciano's trip over the Brooklyn Bridge at the start of the fatal run. Several witness accounts say that the train seemed to be going faster than normal and slowed erratically. In addition, there's Luciano's failure to stop at Consumer's Park. That could mean only that he didn't know about the flag-stop sign on the platform (but didn't one of the conductors also ring the stop bell?), which wouldn't be too grave an error in the grand scheme of things, but also could be a sign of excessive speed.
Possibly. On the other hand, Luciano was able to handle the even steeper grade over the Brooklyn Bridge - while he went too fast on the bridge, and applied the brakes erratically, he did get the train across in one piece.
The way tht I see it, the crash could have happened at a number of spots from the yard where Luciano first took out the train to where the crash did happen.
I don't have my copy handy, but IIRC Luciano was not going too fast when he approached the Franklin turn. The marker lights were malfunctioning, and the tower operator assumed the train was heading toward City Line because the preceding train had gone down Brighton. When Luciano saw that he was going out to City Line, he assumed that the train was being re-routed due to strike-related problems along Brighton (or so he said).
Reading the book it looks like what Luciano did on the road at Malbone and what he said in court later were 2 different things.
City regulations supposedly require the other captain to be in the wheeelhouse during docking, which he presumably wasn't. On the other hand, the crew is expected to keep to the schedule, which might not be easy unless the other captain prepares for the reverse trip by going to the other wheelhouse.
So it is possible that (a) the other captain was partially negligent and/or (b) the rules set up an impossible situtation where you can't keep the schedule and follow the rules at the same time. This could suggest some management culpability as well, though certainly not on the level of Malbone Street.
Look at the two pilots of the US Air 737 that wound up in the East River a few years back. They disappeared after the accident too...only to be found asleep in a hotel the next morning!!
With St. George it looks like someone who was qualified to operate the ferry was either asleep or out cold at a critical moment and somehow came into the slip on full throttle and at an angle.
IAWTP.
-William A. Padron
["111th Street-Corona"]
Also, it was on this date 34 years ago that the Miracle Mets pulled off what has to rank as one of the biggest sports upsets ever as they won the 1969 World Series. I remember it as though it were yesterday. The city went absolutely bananas, and one Madison Ave. bus driver made a startling announcement: "Everybody on FREE!!!" Wonder if he still had his job the next morning.
The playing field at Shea was totally trashed and had to be resodded for a Jets game the following Monday night. I was late for a drum lesson because I watched the celebration on TV.
-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-207th St."]
I thought that was the last of them, but a few minutes later, I saw a redbird set in service heading Flushing-bound.
I came to the realization that this is a new age of subway riding now that the redbirds are almost all gone. That's when I realized that coincidentally, I was riding in R-62A #2003. =/
IIRC, we saw 9318 standing solo in the yard last night...
Odd happening, but that same consist never left the yard o anything.
*dies*
I hunted (and rode them) yesterday for 4 round trips complete with
Greenberger and Choo Choo stopping off for a peek at CYard
(and then the encore yacking up good times with Kool-D)..
I had a spectacular time and ENCOURAGE all you who haven't already
done so to do the same-- CATCH THE REDBIRDS!!
Kool-D said it best: "WHAT'S ANOTHER HOUR AMONG FRIENDS??"
I already promised myself to try and do this again next week, but
if our fine colored friends aren't there by the time I get back down,
then I'll go on remembering my last memory of the redbird:
--A SPEEDY express run to MAIN and watching her 9734 lights go dark and
getting pulled away into the tunnel AS THE LIGHTS BLINKED ON AND OFF
1 last time.--
Thanks to Greenberger, Choo Choo, and my ultimate rider brah Kool-D
for serving up a good tour and a grand good time.
The lights never blink when the train passes over a switch.
The rhythm of the fast express run is like music, you will never reproduce the song that has been playing non-stop for 40 years.
The comfort of a warm heater under your seat will be absent from your new silver cars.
The hissing of the doors close will be gone too.
Isn't it anti-IRT to hear the BING-BONG when the doors close?
and most of all:
THE BANGING AND WHITE-KNUCKLE OF A CAR, LIKE YOU CAN FEEL IT'S GONNA TEAR APART FROM THE CONSIST.
(Remember that turn where it jolted under us? DAMN esse!)
I love that. Can also be heard on the R-32 and R-38, and some say R-40 as well.
K.Usagi,
The Van Courtlandt Madman
9735- 9 Broadway/7Av Local
I recorded some sounds off it too with my portable mp3 player.
The Marlins are representing the NL.
The question is, will the Yankees represent themselves in the Yankee (oops, I mean World) Series, or will they have to lease their slot to the Red Sox this year? :0)
Which is more likely: The Yankees beat the Sox tonight, or the last Redbird consist leaves the Flushing line forever tonight?
c) Boston beats tha Yawnkees tonight.
I'm not a YAWNKEE fan, but Pedro vs. Raj has my interest...
LONG LIVE THE REDBIRDS AND YANKEES.
R36-WF #9594 #7-Flushing express
Anybody from QUEENS (or da BRONX like ME) cannot POSSIBLY go rah-rah for Steingrabber's JUNKIES ... hard drugs, they're not just for liberals anymore ... yo, RUSH! (what's Rush doing in the corner? (honk! tweet!)) ... ghads, I'm LOVING all this. The RULING party, caught in their own zipper! Heh.
Just wish it'd been the Cubbies and da Sox! If it can't be "da MEATS" then let's settle for the alternative - FLORIDA and the OTHER FLORIDA, Steingrabber hisself ... I'm a METS fan ... I woulda RATHER seen WEST WING. :(
Junkies - Florida ... hmmmmmm ... ends up in SUPREME COURT ... Umpire had dangling cups, consensus of two umps, unconstitutional ... CHENEY WINS THE SERIES! Ashcroft to Hall of Fame ... Rumsfeld opens DELI on 57th and 5th. Moo. :)
SCWOO baseball! It's *HOCKEY* season!
The Mets need a whole new team.
As for the Yankees, I predict a 50/50 chance of victory tonight...
Nothing like committing yourself, eh?
I predict that the team that scores the most runs will win tonight's game.
I predict that tonight's winner will be from the AL East.
til next time
I'm not surprised the E's would get the new cars. The E serves the WTC, which itself is rebuilding, and MTA will want its nicest rolling stock to come to the new WTC. On the other end, travelers transferring from AirTrain, and those going to Manhattan or coming from Manhattan to a new airport conference center now in the works will see shiny new rolling stock.
Obviously, this is speculation, but if what you heard is true, I can see the rationale for it.
The E is getting R-38's?
Oh, right, I forgot -- some people here assume that new = nice (even if "new" does not yet exist and, thus, cannot yet even be evaluated).
David Greenberger likes R38s, and that's great, but it doesn't count for much at 347 Madison Av, where those decisions are made.
Of course, I didn't say it was going to happen, only that if the rumor repoported here turned out to be true, there was a good reason for it.
wayne
Just don't do it with the taxpayers' money.
How do you know? Subway riders haven't been polled on the issue. Subway riders aren't even in a position to be polled on the issue yet, since no subway riders have set foot on an R-160.
And how do you know that? Are you privy to all the MTA's marketing surveys?
Seriously, though: You're wrong. The R142 and 143 are the products of a long surveying process that began with the R110 test trains, whose interiors are the basis for the R142 and R143 design. The public has had a chance to see them, both in person and in print. MTA spent a lot of time (maybe too much? everybody's a critic, you know) on surveys, and the public has had years to respond to what is now the R143. The R160 is not likely to deviate from it.
If you want to conduct your own survey, by all means. Or write a letter to MTA asking that rehabbed R38s be used on routes where MTA wants to show off its finest. Maybe even on the SAS.
You'll get an answer (if the respondent can keep from laughing long enough to focus on his/her word processor).
It seems fairly obvious to me that nobody can express a definite preference for something that does not exist.
Once the cars enter service, feel free to take a survey of actual people who have actually ridden the actual R-160's. Until you do that, you cannot know what their actual preference is. (And until the cars first enter service, they don't even have an actual preference. Well, except that they prefer a train that will show up in a few minutes over one that will show up in a few years, and even on the E, that's more likely to be an R-38 than an R-160.)
:0)
A question about the R160 (and R143 too) - how long are these cars- 60 or 67 feet? I think the R110B was sets of 3 67 foot cars, but the cars I've heard order have a different number of cars per set. If they are 60 feet, any idea why the 67 foot length did not work out?
There is neither need, nor advantage to a 67 foot car. There is advantage to be had in standardizing the IND/BMT fleet to 60-foot and existing 5-foot cars.
David
1 for the 62/62a ANYDAY.
Wayne
Geez. IRT is so predictable now.
WRONG WORD to use to contrast with Redbirds.
til next time
Not really. R142 have nice bright interiors that make you feel less vulnerable to attack, as well as a quiet and smooth ride. I don't bother looking out the RFW, but just look at the motorman's speed indicator.
Now I am quite sure that one of you (I forget whom) on this board wanted a T-Shirt of the Paris Métro. But I've forgotten exactly who wanted it.
That person can either e-mail me or leave their message on the board here. Don't forget to leave me your shirt size.
BTW, there's nothing like typing on a French computer keyboard. With the letters going in order AZERTYUIOPQSDFGHJKLMWXCVBN, it took me like 15 minutes to type this. Nothing like playing hunt & peck. Never mind the fact that 5 minutes of it was spent trying to find the @.
http://www.ratp.fr/boutique/
It looks like they have more than one style...the route map shirt is the design I'm looking for. Oh yeah, I'm an XL.
Thanks again for going to this trouble for me. Please let me know what the cost is in U.S. dollars, plus whatever it'll cost you to mail it to me once you get home.
Mark
Hey now! That'd never get washed.
I checked the old maps here, and found the stub west of Marcy, shown as "B'way Ferry" on the 1924 BMT map. You can also see it on the 1939 map, but no description. By the 1948 map, it's gone.
Does anyone have any additional info about that section? When was it used? When was it removed?
You can find some neat old photos at the dailynewspix.com site. To find this picture, do a search for "BMT" in the caption, and it should return 10 photos...then look for N1987707. I did searches for "IRT, IND, and elevated" looking for vintage stuff. The word "subway" alone returns way too many photos.
"The People's Almanac" (Wallachinsky and Wallace, 1975, p. 564) gives the following very detailed description of what happened:
William W. Murphy, a 45-year veteran of railroading and just 4 years away from retirement, responded to the "restricted" signal on "C" tower 2 miles before the train's first scheduled stop at Jamaica. With the signal’s change to "approach," Murphy resumed his 30-mph speed. The next signal light on "J" (for Jamaica) tower showed "restricted" and again Murphy applied the air brakes. They grabbed and wouldn't release. Train 780 and its 12 cars carrying 1,000 homeward-bound passengers ground to a dead stop. Brakeman Bertram N. Biggam started to get the flares to put behind the stalled train.
Close behind on the same mainline track, Train 174 with 12 cars and 1,200 passengers thundered toward Jamaica. Motorman Benjamin J. Pokorny obeyed the signal at "C" tower and brought his train to a halt. When the signal changed, he accelerated to 15 mph. In back of him the "C" tower signal changed again back to "restricted," but ahead the signal on "J" tower flashed "approach." Train 174 resumed full speed. Too late Pokorny saw the stopped train ahead. In his last seconds of life he pulled the brake cord . . .
Neither train was equipped with an automatic repeater signal system, an electronic device mounted in the motorman's cab. Murphy and Pokorny had to rely on signal towers spaced at intervals along their route. Normally this signal-light system worked fine, but if a signal changed after a train had passed a tower, the system didn't work at all. Pokorny should have seen the taillights of the stalled train, if they were on. And that raised an unanswered question, for in a report by the Long Island Railroad to the Public Service Commission it was reported that within a 7-day period the taillights on 50 trains had been inoperative. . .
Passengers aboard Train 174 suffered their annoyance in silence. It wouldn't be the 1st time they had arrived home late. There was no warning of danger until the headlight of train 174 bathed the last car in its blinding glare. In seconds the two cars were fused together. The front car of Pokorny's train telescoped the rear of Murphy's train. Those not killed outright were overcome with fear. The trains were dark. Bedlam reigned inside the cars. People physically capable of moving couldn't because of the pileup of dead and injured bodies.
The noise of the collision was heard on 126th Street and Hillside Avenue. Soon help arrived, but it was an hour and 20 minutes before the last passenger was extricated from the bent and twisted cars. Amputations were performed on the spot and acetylene torches were used to free many trapped passengers. Priests administered last rites while doctors administered plasma. For hundreds of New Yorkers the tragedy turned Thanksgiving Day, 1950, into the blackest of black Thursdays
Not really. So many major events have happened in world history that you can pick any date and multiple events of major import have happened on that date.
Dick Cheney was born on the same date as Adolph Hitler took power. Eerie coincidence? No. FDR was born on that date too.
Coincidences are what you make of them. If there are no limitations imposed on what category of information one considers, one can create whole volumes of coincidences, with the vast majority meaning absolutely nothing important.
Question relating to the incident: does anyone have the unit numbers involved (including the damaged 11th car of the Hempstead train)?
thanks
wayne
John
Same day of the year, not the same exact date.
Abraham Lincoln was born on the same exact date (April 12, 1809) as every subway surfer's best friend, Charles Darwin.
My initial misconception about the crash was that it happened on the
Western Montauk Branch, just west of the Woodhaven Boulevard overpass.
This part made no sense to me. Why is J tower flashing approach if the stalled train is sitting somewhere between the C and J towers? Even if the train has actually stopped PAST the J tower location, it should still not show "approach". It is possible that the train is stopped between "C" and "J", in which case "J" could show "approach", but "C" would show "restricting", and would not have cleared for the following train to procced into the occupied block.
What kind of signal systems were in use, and were track circuits in use? Jersey Mike, over to you?
AEM7
Ah, this is the passing restricting signal rule. If you pass a restricting signal with permission, then you encounter one that is clear, you must not assume the clear signal is for you until a dispatcher inform you of a signal malfunction that has required you to pass a restricting. Of course, the "stop-and-proceed" aspect is slightly different, but this is still a basic case of jumping to conclusions on the part of the engineer.
AEM7
Worst plane accident--one airplane:
08/12/1985 Mt. Osutaka, Japan Japan Air Lines B747 - 520 killed.
more than one airplane:
03/27/1977 Tenerife, Canary Islands, a Pan Am B747 collided into KLM B747, - 583 killed - all time record.
(from http://users.cybercity.dk/~dko12530/disaster.htm )
sea:
The greatest maritime disaster in peacetime happened in December 1987, when the Philippine inter-island ferry Doa Paz collided with the Vector, a small coastal petrol tanker. The impact triggered an explosion in the tanker, and the resulting fireball set fire not only to the ferry, but also to the surface of the sea as the spilt petrol spread. Of the Doa Paz’s 4,317 passengers (only 1,586 appeared on the manifest) only 24 survived; all 58 crew and 11 of the Vector’s crew of 13 perished. Of the 4,386 who lost their lives, over 1,000 were children.
The worst recorded losses of life at sea came at the end of the Second World War. On 30 January 1945, the German liner Wilhelm Gustloff was torpedoed in the Baltic while crowded with evacuated civilians and troops, fleeing the Soviet forces approaching Gdynia and Gdansk. Over 7,000 people died in the freezing water.[another site claims it was exactly 9,343 deaths] Just 10 days later, on 9 February, the same submarine, the Russian S 13, sank the Steuben with the loss of over 3,000 lives, and, on April 16, the Soviet submarine L 13 sank the Goya, with only 183 survivors from more than 7,000 men, women and children on board.
(above from http://www.nmm.ac.uk/site/navId/005002006001008/request/setTemplate:faq/contentTypeA/conFaq/contentId/41/mode/archive )
rail:
On 6 June 1981, close to the town of Samastipur, a passenger train became derailed and seven of its coaches plunged into the River Bagmati. Officials stated that there may have been over 1000 people killed and some suggested that the death toll might even exceed 3000.
(above from http://danger-ahead.railfan.net/accidents/samastipur/home.html )
Didn't it derail because the engineer tried to avoid running over a cow?
They might even send you something by mail, if you ask politely.
wayne
wayne
"B" division: Crescent's the sharpest, Cypress Hills just a little less so. Lower Level at W.8th (F)'s very tight. and if you want to count G.O. trackage, add the Flyover (J2) between the "L" and "J", citybound side. We've also just lost one of the greats, the "S" curve n. of Sutter on the "L". Alabama on the "J" is worth a mention too.
wayne
wayne
ALL IRT cars (except for the new stuff) are "moosical".
wayne
Back in 1969 I had the pleasure of a ride on Steinway WF Lo-V stock in 3rd Avenue El service. This line featured a number of fairly sharp curves. One curve in particular elicited extreme wheel noise from that train; that was the one just outside the 210th Street-
Williamsbridge station.
DOWN WITH TRACK SPRAYERS!
wayne
Yes, but no one had authoritative answers last time, and no one has authoritative answers this time either.
I actually structured my classes today around this, I went to a Materials recitiation on Wednesday so that my afternoon would be open to spend quality time with 2320. I got out at 11am from my Systems lecture, checked with Drexel IMS (who lends cameras to Drexel students) since the Olympus C390s suck, I wanted to see if they had any older C380s, which they didn't. That done I started off for 12th and Filbert, which I reached about 11:30 or so. 2320 was parked in front of DE40LF 5602H, which has a new wrap, not all covering, just covering the area between the roofline and the windows. SEPTA had set up some small tables where they distributed literature on 2320 and 5602H (propoganda in the case of the hybrid stuff), sadly I didn't pick up a single piece of paper, more on that later.
The trolley was completely open, we could sit in the T/O's seat, ring the gong, apply the track brakes, and just generally make a nusance out of ourselves to the photo-takers. I thought the seats were comfortable, but we'll see how they hold up, they're standard SEPTA-issue seats. One thing that impressed me were the defrosting strips built into the front windshield, I'm assuming it'd be difficult to get air to circulate there, so they basically put a rear-window defroster on a car in the PCC's windshield, but the wires are so small that from just 3 feet or so away they appear to be mere imperfections in the lexan.
There were maybe 2 dozen railfans there, I believe I was the youngest unaccompanied railfan there. Unfortunately SEPTA seems to have set this up as a lunch time thing for the workers in Center City. I left at 1:00 and rode a 34 trolley back home, where I got my bike, emptied off the camera's pictures, and grabbed a coke and headed out again. I planned to get back to 12th and Filbert by 2:30, figuring it'd be some 2 hours or so until they sent 2320 home. I rode back to Drexel, checked in with IMS, who now had two C390s, but no C380s. I rode into the city via JFK Blvd, and once across to 20th shifted north to Arch, where the sidewalks were a bit emptier. Then at 18th and Arch I heard it, like a balloon slowly deflating, followed by a rushing sound, my back tire's innertube bursting. Now I have to walk my bike the better part of a mile down Arch to the Septa display. But I managed it, I even managed to get to 12th and Filbert by 2:30, to find nothing. In the hour and a half since I'd left, SEPTA had decided they'd gotten enough PR and had packed up shop and left. So I'm now 3 miles from home with a busted bike, and a camera without a subject. Fortunately I was able to take my bike on the MFL, after lifting it over the turnstile, and then having to dodge everyone and their brother to worm my way into a doorway where I could have my bike upright. I made it out to 46th St station just in time to be mobbed by kids getting out of school. I did finally get my bike home, and it now sits locked to the bar that constitutes the bike rack here, not that it's going anywhere, with a flat rear tire and nearly flat front.
Now it's 3:00, my bike's broken, my second helping of 2320 has fallen on the floor, and Roadrunner has decided to not work. On the other hand, I've only got a blank camera and a handful of PCC pictures, plus there is a very real chance that 2320 will be heading back through my neighborhood to reach Elmwood Depot, so I go for a walk. I followed the diversion route down to Woodland, and then head east for 40th St portal to watch the trolleys there. I managed to get 4 trolleys in one pic, but the worst thing happened when leaving the portal. I had just killed off the camera, taken all 31 pictures allowed by it's 16mb secure BS media card (the worst feature of the C390, IMHO), and was walking down Baltimore headed home, feeling good about the pics I had taken, even if they were pretty much the same pictures I always take at 40th St portal.
I've just passed 41st and am heading downhill, a police car flips on it's lights and sirens as it crosses at 42nd and Baltimore, which just happens to be the route of the diversion route. Then I realize that it's Transit Police, then I realize that it crossed the street and stopped, and that an officer is now stopping cross traffic, on baltimore, including both a west and eastbound 34 trolley, despite their having a green light. By this point I am flying, running downhill as fast as I can, the camera is in my hands, I'm desperately trying to delete some shite photo which the C390 has graced me with. But it's too late, 2320 bursts out from behind the chuch building on the corner and after a brief pause it proceeds across the intersection with some artful gong work. Immediately after it clears the intersection both 34 trolleys decide to cross while the car traffic is still oggling the PCC, I've got my camera up and aimed, but 100 feet of Kawasaki LRV block my view, by the time they and a truck following the westbound clear, 2320 has crossed Chester and is sinking fast as it heads toward Woodland. I was this ->| |<- close to having the most amazing shot I can think of right now, 2320 facing off with the eastbound K-car, offset by 90 degrees. If I had left 40th St portal just 2 minutes earlier, I would have been at 42nd and Pine when the transit police closed 42nd and Spruce, and would have had plenty of time to setup a shot with it. Oh well, such is life.
Anyway, here are some shots that I uploaded today:
That is beautiful! Not the picture, the subject!
The Operator's panel
The Wheelchair lift being demonstrated
Real Trolley-Fake Trolley
Your doom is nigh diesel scum!
So you have Roadrunner huh? It's not the Roadrunner, but the shitty company [Urban Cableworks-Time Warner], that's operating thecable company. Take if from me, all the people I know that live in West Philly, have the most f*^ked up cable service in the city.
Mark
Nice pics btw, get any interior shots?
: (
Mark
Sean@Temple
http://www.phillytrolley.org/tracks1.html#aircars
I noticed the CARD system [a radio-GPS system on all SEPTA surface vehicles], but I think the cars will have old-fashioned roll signs, not the electronic signs some people have thought the cars will get.
The Brookville people said this car's system either equal or is superior to the systems in the Kawasaki cars.
All in all, SEPTA did an impressive job in the restoration and rebuilding of the cars. Now the real proof in the job done will be seen when these cars go into revenue operation.
Like I kinda said, I was there 11:30am-1pm, I shouldn't have left, that was a mistake.
I forgot another thing, when I saw 2320 at 42nd and Baltimore, the thing was SILENT! I think it was quieter than the K-cars, not even the hum, and certainly not some AC traction howl or whine. I expected the IGBT stuff to give it the characteristic whine that we've all come to love from the New Tech cars, whether they be M-4s, 01800s, or NYCTA's mass of new tech stuff. I also was hearing it cross the diamonds and switches there, maybe it just seemed quiet because it was at the same time pounding away at the pretty poor track on the crossings.
1. I take "a handful" to mean at least five. So the MTA's comment...
Nostalgia trains
Nostalgia train runs, now conducted by the NY Transit Museum only a handful of times a year will be expanded to once quarter.
...seems to be saying that they will be running LESS nostalgia runs than normal. What gives?
2. October 27th, 2004
Historic Fleet/Nostalgia Train Excursions
Plans are to run as much of the historic fleet as possible randomly (based on NYCT’s discretion) on October 27.
You heard it here first...I'm taking that day off from work. Who's with me!?!?
3. I can't wait till the commemorative decals, map, and metrocards come out.
Oh boy!! Oh boy!!!! Yippee!!!!
Randomly?
RANDOMLY???
The MTA is going to throw its small handful of old trains into this sprawling system, and we're supposed to try and figure out where the hell they're going to be???
Plus perhaps they want NORMAL PEOPLE to see the trains, instead of encountering a wall of foamers "coming out of the woodwork" every time one comes in...
But Breda also constructed aircraft at one time. Is this the descendant company?
In the early part of World War Two, Breda manufactured, under license from Junkers, the JU-87 Stuka dive bomber for use in the Italian Air Force. Mussolinni was impressed with the Stuka's role in the conquest of Poland, France and the Low Countries.
The Italian-made Stukas performed like the German-built planes, but the Italian Air Force lacked the communications protocols, equipment and training which the Germans had used to wed the Luftwaffe tightly to the Wermacht. Thus the Italian Stukas were not used to good effect.
Did Budd participate in aircraft manufacturing at one time? General Motors and Ford built aircraft for the Air Force during WW II.
YES!
Jersey Mike and I saw a Budd airplane in front of the Institute (of Franklin) in Philly last July.
Mark
the changes:
(A) Inwood-207th Street Manhattan - Far Rockaway Queens.
Express in Manhattan and Brooklyn all times except 1-5am(local north of 145th Street after 10:30pm) Local in Queens
1-5am Local in Brooklyn and Manhattan
(B) Brighton Beach Brooklyn - 168th Street-Washington Heights Manhattan
Weekdays from 6:00pm - 10:30pm
Express in Brooklyn, Local in Manhattan
(C) Euclid Avenue Brooklyn - Bedford Park Boulevard-200th Street Bronx or 145th Street Manhattan.
To 200th Street weekdays from 6:00am-8:00pm, to 145th Street 9:00pm - 12:00pm and on weekends.
Local in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and The Bronx.
(D) Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue Brooklyn - Norwood-205th Street Bronx.
Express in Brooklyn(Weekdays 5am-12am), Manhattan(all times), and The Bronx(to Manhattan 6:00am-12:30pm and to The Bronx 12:00pm to 7:30pm)
(H) Rockaway Park Queens - 59th Street or 145th Street Manhattan 6:00am-7:00pm
To 145th Street Rush Hours, to 59th Street Middays.
Evenings, Weekends and Nights, Rockaway Park - Broad Channel Queens. Transfer to (A) for service to from Manhattan.
Local in Queens, Express in Brooklyn and Manhattan
(K) Ozone Park-Lefferts Blvd Inwood-207th Street, Express in Brooklyn and Manhattan all times except nights. Local in Queens (Local above 145th Street on weekends).
Nights 1-5 am, Shuttle from Lefferts Blvd to Rockaway Blvd. Transfer to (A) at Rockaway Blvd for service to/from Manhattan.
Eliminates multiple A terminals
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/smcentrl.gif
To eliminate mixed Local/Express service of a line, the C should go to
Inwood during nights instead of the A (only one example).
As far as the "C", I think the TA should terminate it at 167th St. Grand Concourse during non-rush hours like they originally planned.
To eliminate mixed Local/Express service of a line, the C should go to Inwood during nights instead of the A (only one example).
Not such a bad idea. The TA has gone that route before ("D" local/"Q" express; "2" local/"5" express; "RR" local/"B" and "N" express). Personally, for historical purposes, I'm just used to "A" express.
Better to turn trains at 145th or BPB, which have extra tracks.
There is no bigger delay of service and time than having that "B" train cross over two switches to get from 135th St to 145th St.
At 167th, if somebody refuses to get off, the train can't enter the relay. If it takes more than a few minutes to kick him off, the D train will have to wait behind it -- indefinitely.
I'd rather be delayed a minute than indefinitely.
There has been plenty of times the "D" has been delayed by crossing the "B/C" in front.
Furthermore, as I have previously stated, there are several other areas in the transit system that have the same setup as the possible 167th St terminal situation for years with very little situations of passengers refusing to get off the train.
Look at the track map at CC. You don't have a extra track for turns, so
the trains have to use the epxress tracks - but the A & D using it.
PS: I don't know how many tourists use the subway during late nights, but
i think it's very confusing if a train runs most time express and
then for a few (night) hours local. So my idea is to cut back express
lines at nights and extend locals. (see also: http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=571732)
If you run the B to 167 you'll still have nearly the same problem at 145:
Instead of blocking the D while switching to the middle track, the B
blocks the D while running in front of it on the outer track.
It doesn't matter if the B terminates at 145 or 167 - if an B and D
reaches at the same time 145 on train haves to wait!
I don't know if the signals allow turns on the express track, cos there
is a 4th track perfect for turning (and storing) trains.
Looking at the signal system i'm familiar with, it haves to be special
constructed to allow turning, instead of "thru-running".
Look at the track maps:
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/135.gif
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/145.gif
Owl "K" remains as current Euclid terminus.
You really don't have to change very much to make this happen (aside from the maps and signs).
I like the all-day express "D". You've got your 12/12:30 reversed though; the citybound ends at 1200, the outbound begins at 1300 (or thereabouts). The only question I have is - does the ridership warrant it?
wayne
this way the first express D northbound B can reach the Bronx between 1:00-1:30
wayne
All day express service on the Concourse line is not warranted by ridership, IMHO.
It's not like back in the day when every other subway line had multiple branches, ie: 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, A, B, CC, D, E, F, GG, N and RR. Nowadays, most lines have just one branch and passengers are used to that. So yes,the split does cause confusion.
Nah... (B) from (B)edford Park (B)lvd., the (B)ronx to (B)righton (B)each, (B)rooklyn sounds sooo much better... :P
A Train Unchange
B & C...pre-B/C terminal swap
D unchange, local in CPW at nite (optional)
H become "S" Rockaway Park
K operates beween 145st and Leffert All time except nite, late shuttle between Euclid and Leffert
And people living near the Brighton Line can go back to supporting the Dodgers.
No CAF sightings on the Red Line yet...
Chuck
Also, I'm BOARshevik.
Next time you're in the chat, ask someone for the Subtalk buddy list, you can IM me if you want it.
Transit Museum Store at GCT(NOT THE BROOKLYN SITE) at 8:30
Round info Kiosk with clock on top at 3:35
WE WILL LEAVE FOR THE TRAIN AT 8:40, NO LATER!
Please post where you'll be meeting us.
John J. Blair will be the one at the Transit Museum store, and I'll be the 15 yr old at the info kiosk. I'll most likely be wearing either Jeans or black pants, and my Grey jacket/vest.
IF YOU'RE GETTING ON AT HARLEM 125TH ST or any other station, please post that. If it is an MU, we will be in the 1st car open. If not, we will be in the last car open.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All four in-service boats and the crippled Barbri flew the US and city flags a half-staff.
The Barberi is tied up at slip five and her damaged side is covered by a blue canvas. The in service boats were using slip 4 which is on hear good side and were coming in at very low speed in order to avoid creating a wake. The Coast Guard Tug USCGC PENOBSCOT BAY WTGB-107 stood guard about 1000 feet offshore.
I rode over on the JFK and returned on the HHL.
I then headed out to Queensboro Plaza to catch a ride on a train of Redbirds. I had to wait about 20 minutes but a Main Street bound #7 came in with the following consist; 9734-5,9306,9612-3,9608-9,9610-1 and 9594-5. I got on board and rode at the railfan window all the way to Main Street. At Junction Blvd I saw one other Redbird train inbound and passing Corona Yard a third train looked ready to go into service. I rode the same train back from Main Street to GCT riding this time in R-33 9306 (Naturally). I will be away for about a week. I hope that they hold off on the last run until I get back.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Are there any reporters at Katz's?
By the way Larry, you going to be at Shoreline this weekend for Railfan Weekend?
No Sarge: I wish I was but my plans were made month ahead of time.
I hope that you guys have a great time.
Larry, RedbirdR33
What time of day did you ride the 7?
David: My eyesight isn't that bad. There definetely two trainsets in service. I saw a third set sitting on probably track 18 through 21. It was pulled up to the homeboard and right next to an R-62A traisets which was just going into service. I didn't say it was operating only that it sure looked like it. There are were six Redbirds sitting in the back yard pulled all the way up to the bumpers.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
David: It was five o'clock at night. Track 18 thru 21 are in the front yard closest to the mainline. It was an eleven car train plus there were six cars in the back yard. If this eleven car train was slated to leave today for 207 Street thats probably what it was doing there. Unfortunately I didn't have the time to wait and find out.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
David: Your second picture seems to confirm what I said. There were two 11 car trains in service and a third set in the front yard plus six more in the back yard.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
You mean not any more.
FWIW, I'm sure I saw an 11-car set in the layup yard east of the Passarelle bridge earlier this week, while two sets were on the road. Remember also that we can't see inside the shop building.
wayne
All kidding aside, they may have either getting serviced or inspected. With Barberi out of action for what looks to be at least a year, AL (II) is going to get a reprieve once the Guy V.Molinari arrives next spring.
wayne
The AMERICAN LEGION, JOHN A NOBLE and MICHEAL COSGROVE were all tied up at the maintenance base.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
9308.
see post http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=584647
wayne
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Bill "Newkirk"
wayne
The train's event recorders were recovered from both locomotive
units and have been read out by Safety Board investigators. The
train derailed at a recorded speed of about 67 miles per hour as it
traversed a crossover from main track 1 to main track 2. Maximum
allowable speed for the crossover movement is 10 mph. The recorders
will be transported to the NTSB's Washington headquarters for
further analysis in its laboratories.
Weather conditions at the time of the accident were clear daylight,
and 68 degrees.
The train's dispatcher told investigators on Monday that he had
established the train's intended route through the crossover once
train 519 had commenced its trip. The train's engineer was
interviewed on Tuesday. He reports that he believed the signals were
set for continued operation on track 1, with no crossover movement
indicated. The maximum operating speed limit for passenger trains
for a clear signal is 70 mph. The engineer has about 9 years of
railroad experience, becoming an engineer in July of this year.
On Monday, the Safety Board added a signals expert to the two
investigators already on scene. He and his group will test the
signal system on the route tonight to determine if it is operating
as designed.
Organizations providing investigative assistance to the NTSB are
METRA, the Federal Railroad Administration, the Brotherhood of
Locomotive Engineers, the United Transportation Union, the
Brotherhood of Railway Signalmen, and the Illinois Commerce
Commission.
Investigative groups have been formed to document all relevant
information in the areas of Operations, Track, Signals, Human
Performance, Survival Factors, Event Recorder, and Train Equipment.
The Board's on-scene investigation is continuing and pertinent
factual information will be released as it is gathered.
(The preceding release was issued by the National Transportation
Safety Board Wednesday, Oct. 15, 2003.)
October 16, 2003
wayne
wayne
As an example, with an ABS (Automatic Block Signal) system, in this situation the signal immediately preceding the switch in question would presumably read red-over-green (or red-over-green-over-red). This would indicate that the track ahead (the top signal) is restricted but the diverging track (the second signal from the top) is clear. While this doesn't specifically tell you to go slowly, it makes it obvious that you're about to take a diverging switch - so you'd better watch your speed!
On the other hand, as I understand it, with a CTC (Computerized Train Control, IIRC) system, the signal immediately preceding the switch would be something weird like yellow-over-red-over-red or yellow-over-yellow-over red or something. There are a number of different ways of displaying CTC signals depending on what railroad you're with. This would basically tell you you're supposed to be going "slow restricted" or "medium slow restricted" or something, which means you have no idea whether you're taking the switch or not but you know you're supposed to keep your speed down. Jeff, can you help? I don't know CTC very well (obviously).
Either way, misreading a signal in this fashion is obviously a pretty serious offense. I'm certainly not sure that it was human error, but I would guess that 80% of accidents like this are human error. It's pretty doubtful that the tower would have thrown a switch right in front of the train, and even more doubtful that the signal gave the wrong indication. But who knows?
Frank Hicks*
*not in any way a signal expert
You need to call up Julie and start your remedial signaling lessons!
CTC is Centralized (not Computerized...it was around before
"computer" meant something other than "one who computes")
Traffic Control. It simply means that instead of local interlocking
towers, the tower operator sits far away staring at a model board
rather than the actual tracks. The tower operator's commands are
conveyed to the remote interlocking in a number of ways (including,
in modern systems, via computer networks), but the protection
equivalent to the mechanical interlocking between levers in
of a traditional plant is provided by vital relays.
To answer Wayne's question, regardless of whether the system is
CTC or local tower, it is highly unlikely that the aspect displayed
by the signal disagreed with the route. That is part of
the fail-safe protection mentioned above. Also, to answer your
hypothesis, the system provides "approach locking" which would
make it impossible for the tower to clear one route (say the
high-speed route) and then drop the route and change it to the
other, low-speed route while the train is approaching.
The pertinent issue is whether that trackage had Automatic
Speed Control. If so, it would have prevented this accident,
unless of course it was cut-out.
That's true... well, I'm sure my knowledge of CTC will improve as it is implemented at IRM. I think that, as bizarre as it sounds, the plan is to eventually convert the entire railroad to CTC rather than the current ABS.
Julie got part of the display board in the interlocking tower working in August, I think it was. You can track a train's progress from Karsten's Crossing all the way to the west end, and when a train passes Karsten's westbound a bell rings to alert the dispatcher that the train will need orders soon (generally, at least - typical procedure is to stop westbound trains in front of the depot). The next step is to hook up the power switches at the west end of the station track leads, and then we're in business.
Frank Hicks
The purpose of ABS is to enforce spacing between trains.
What IRM has now is actually bi-directional
APB (Automatic Permissive Block). The signals leaving sidings
or otherwise taking one into single-track are Absolute (Stop
and Stay on red), while the intermediate signals are
Permissive (Stop and Proceed).
Again, APB and CTC can co-exist. Right now, if I recall the
system correctly, when a westbound train goes through the
crossing (Seamann Road?) and starts to leave Johnson's siding
with a clear signal, that "locks" the direction westbound up
to the east wye area. If the dispatcher or crew messed up
and a westbound train started to leave the siding just as an
eastbound train was cleared out, they would both know something
is up because the signals would all "tumble-down" in front
of them to red.
The CTC system allows the dispatcher to control traffic by holding
that leaving signal at red, rather than letting it clear if the
block is clear and traffic is neutral. Instead of written train
orders or having to radio in from the siding for orders, the crew
could proceed entirely on signal indication.
Right now, if I recall the system correctly, when a westbound train goes through the crossing (Seamann Road?) and starts to leave Johnson's siding with a clear signal, that "locks" the direction westbound up to the east wye area.
Correct. There's a reset button on each signal base that will change change the direction of the signalling on the main line, just in case it ends up going the wrong direction (so to speak).
The CTC system allows the dispatcher to control traffic by holding that leaving signal at red
I believe that is the idea. It would actually be quite nice; all the radio traffic certainly isn't a good thing from an historical standpoint.
Frank Hicks
This is unlikley as will be mentioned there is a whole signaling science devoted to preventing this.
What could happen is that the signal was displying a phantom aspect. Contrary to popular belief the most dangerous aspect displayed by a signal is CLEAR (or the illusion of CLEAR) as the Engineer does not take any sort of precautionary measure in responce to it. In many cases, water can leak into the lense housing or the signal can become misaligned or the light can hit it just right and make the signal look like it is displaying an aspect that it is not. There was a collision on the Conrail Harrisburg Line where at a certain time of day the distant signal to CP-Tara looked like it was displaying Approach Medium when it was really displaying Approach or Stop and Proceed.
OR
Signal malfunction
Signal system malfunction
Point machine malfunction
Open points
All theories are possibilities until disproven by facts.
I find it strange that the engineer made no attempt to dump the train, he clearly believed that he had the right of way. If the points were set for crossing over, I find it strange that the engineer did not notice the open blades in front of him. Perhaps the sunlight was a factor. Perhaps the signal system malfunctioned. He should have had some sort of an approach signal and a restricting signal even before he hit the 10mph crossover. I don't know what kind of signal regime is in force there, most likely some variation of Rule 261 CTC judging by the report.
Mike, anyone else, know any details?
AEM7
What is a "point machine?"
A machine that moves the points from one alignment to another.
ie: a Switch Machine.
Could not the tower have moved the switch after he read and committed himself to a clear aspect? (Ie Dropping the signal in his face?)
Elias
When you use point machine you are using exact language and there is nothing wrong with that.
Or one of these:
Or this bad boy
Or these rugged jobbers:
Did I guess correctly?
I believe the 2nd foto down from top is pneumatic, and yes you are right Mike love those switches. I think you're right about the air reservoir, but you should rely solely on Mike for that kinda info, he's the engineer here.
I think the North Western used to use some sort of ATS system, but I could be wrong. I also don't know what they've got these days or whether Metra locomotives are fitted with anything like this. The locomotives used on the North Western are generally kept separate from the Rock Island pool, though, since they operate out of different terminals. I have no idea how ATS works - would it slow the train down if it was going too fast, or only if it blew a stop indication? And 25 does sound better for those crossovers. Thanks for the info!
Frank Hicks
The ATS that the FRA requires for trains to exceed 80mph is nothing more than the AWS system installed nationwide in the UK. AWS = Advanced Warning System, even tho there's nothing advanced about it.
The ATS system installed on many rail lines west of Chicago consists of an inductor shoe positioned about 5-10 feet in front of a signal. When the signal does not display a CLEAR indication, the shoe is energized (or de-energized, I forget). When the train passes over it a pickup senses the state of the induction shoe and then sounds an alertor in the cab. If the alertor is not acknowledged within 20 seconds the a full service application is made, else the train is free to continue along its merry way.
I think most of the ATS related equipment was ripped out in the 70s, when the railroads ceased to be responsible for passenger services. At least I know those ATS on CN/IC (basically a trip stop type design) was ripped out, and those on the ATSF mainline was also removed, making the maximum speed 79mph. None of the new Amtrak locomotives have them, except a bunch for the Conrail Boston Line service that was fitted with new-type ATC that relies on coded track circuits.
AEM7
Nearly all Amtrak engines have cab signal boxes as the NEC. Michigan Line and former Conrail PRR trackage have cabs we well as the BNSF from Aroura to Union Terminal.
I'm just lucky I was out in Colorado when he did this, otherwise I probably would have been talked into doing it, "'Hey Will, let's go stop a train, my friend told me how to' 'Yeah, that sounds like fun!'"
Well, the fact that they have stop-and-proceed signals at many of the Rock Island crossings (I know there are three such crossings on the Heritage Corridor, one between IHB/RI and the other two with other Class I's) suggest that the place isn't fully CTC. That NTSB report made it sound like CTC but if it ain't CTC how the hell can you cross from Track #1 to Track #2 without issuing a warrant or some kind?
AEM7
Rock Island is actually low density territory. The Metra Eletric Line will get it first, then maybe Naperville Line (BN), maybe both of the CNW lines, and perhaps even some of the Milwaukee Road lines. Rock Island would be nearly last on the pecking order, perhaps only just before the North Central Service (Wisconsin Central).
AEM7
The crossover may have been downgraded in speed since your book was printed. That sometimes happens if they change the equipment mix so the geometry is no longer guarenteed safe at 25mph (e.g. introduction of bilevels) -- or maybe it is just so under maintained that only 10mph is a safe speed.
AEM7
We had a semaphore motor burn out on one of the signals at IRM during Members Day Weekend, which made the arm drop and put a stop-and-proceed right in the middle of our speed stretch. D'oh!
Frank Hicks
When I hear Rock Island, I think of US&S supplied small target traffic light signals.
Does anyone know which subway yard this was ?
Sorry, the trains were on screen for a such a short time you couldn't see the front route signs for a hint.
[The part I saw was well past the part where Judy Pace was in her birthday suit (damn!).]
BTW, I wonder whatever happenned to Judy Pace? (she was the hottest black actress back in the 70's!).
According to the IMdB, she pretty much dropped out of sight. No explanation why.
Curt Flood was an outfielder with the St. Louis Cardinals and was partially responsible for eliminating the "reserve clause" in baseball contracts.
According to a partial search on www.elibrary.com under "Judy Pace" she was involved in an incident at her home with the LAPD and had a one million dollar lawsuit against them in 1997. She also accepted an award in 2002 from the NAACP. Based on a birthday in 1942 she is now 61 y/o.
And even though she's in her mid-50's.
Tarantino appears to have an appetite for '70s Black and/or Kung-Fu themed movies (the films he grew up on).
wayne
Except for the Sea Beach (at both ends), all four-track lines branch where the four-track section ends (treating a terminal as a degenerate branch), so locals and expresses never have to merge.
That doesn't happen on any of the four-track lines except the Sea Beach. Where the local-express section ends, there's no reduction in the number of tracks, except at a terminal.
2 via Steinway Tunnel
2 via 60th St. Tunnel
2 via Queensboro Bridge (connecting with 2nd Ave. El)
-- Ed Sachs
But certainly there's no reason to add a fourth track now, and there hasn't for over 60 years.
The Manhattan Els were 3 tracked. For express stations the middle track was elevated above the local station then it returned to the same level as the local tracks.
-- Ed Sachs
And since we have all seen that wonderful photo of what Queens looked like back then.... Well three tracks looked rather extravagant at the time...
Elias
The arrangement would not have made for speedier service in the rush hour direction. In the reverse rush direction, people are doing lots of different types of trips and it's not clear the value of expresses outweighs the reduced frequency of service.
4-tracking would also not increase capacity as long as the E River tunnel remains 2 tracks.
Larry, RedbirdR33
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
(A hint is hiding in one of my recent posts.)
Branford counts! :-)
I don't remember the other.
Here's the other one:
David
From the 204th St 3rd ave El staion in the Bronx, down to 149th St. Change to the Lex (the fastest) to Bowling Green to South Ferry. The staten Island Ferry to the SIRT at St George to Tottenville. The Tottenville ferry to Perth Amboy. The PRR terminal at South Amboy housed the FM A1A Sharks for the NY & Long Branch and on to Long Branch, or I had to hitch-hike to Port Monmouth, which was on the CNJ line to Atlantic Highlands. The US Navy Ammunition Depot EARL was down the road and had a mile+ long pier out into Raritan Bay. At one time (before 1939) the CNJ Atlantic Highlands line crossed the Shrewsbury River and went down the spit to Long Branch. The junction was across the street from my neighbor's house in Long Branch.
By the way, for you CNJ fans, was there ever a line out to Sandy Hook?
Brewers... I thought they were talking about Baseball not Basketball.
:)-
And what does "MTA Subway" have to do with this auction?
And how legal is it to sell NYCTA work gloves, money bags, or shoe paddles?
I guess it's the vandal's choice for spraypainting in the subway. ;)
Posted at select stations along the (7) line are service advisory papers, in effect from late Sept. thru early Nov., Wed. to Fri., from 10 am - 3 pm. It reads (brace yourself):
"<7> Express Trains make local stops between Queensboro Plaza and Willets Pt."
The express direction is half correct.
( 7 ) No trains between Grand Central
and 42-Times Square.
12:01 am somedate to 5:01 am somedate.
Take ( S ) Shuttle instead
QUESTION-- Does the SHUTTLE run overnight??
Last I checked, it DOES NOT.
David
Reread his request...
Coincidentally I discovered it costs less to buy a 2-segment Amtrak ticket than to buy Amtrak to Croton-Harmon, and then a Metro-North to Grand Central.
So I will be leaving CH for Penn in a nice Amfleet or Turbo while the rest of you enjoy "commuter" rail, and will be paying $4 LESS to do it!
Light Rail Foes Cite Air Woes
Mark
Coal: 35.2%
Petroleum: 1.7%
Natural Gas: 19.5%
Petroleum/Gas Combined: 0.2%
Nuclear: 24.5%
Hydroelectric: 18.9%
Other: 0%
So it's certainly not Pennsylvania where 50.7 and 25 percent of the electricity comes from Coal and New-kular power, respectively. Yet Pennsylvania could certainly be counted as maybe the 2nd or 3rd state with the most electrified transit, even if most of the power comes from coal! With Coal's 35.2 percent share in Arizona, along with the 18.9% share that Glenn Canyon and Hoover dams, along with Palo Verde Nukular power plant toss in, hopefully air pollution will be kept to a minimum.
Also, it's a friggin LRV, it consumes less than a kilowatt of electricity! Plus electric motors are thermally more efficient than Gasoline or Diesel engines, AND since you can squeeze more people into a LRV than any car or bus, you achieve greater efficiency with an LRV than with a car or bus.
Nucular power is the cleanest form of power around!
I think the residents of Hanford, WA, might say that depends on what you mean by clean.
Also, I did root for the Boston Red Sox.
Sorry to hear that
Take a bus to Far Rockaway and transfer to the A, only $2.00.
There is some sort of local fare system he shouldn't have paid that much I don't know what it is since I haven't had to use it.
Signed,
The Bambino
Way to go!
So, could anyone give me some info on what station to go to?
Thanks
That would be Hempstead. Why it was called "Hempstead Terminal," I don't know. But it's definitely Hempstead, not West Hempstead.
I have used that station many times, and it is a major transit hub. You can get buses and taxis easily there.
(Historical note: I believe that the West Hempstead and Hempstead lines were once a single loop line connected by tracks between Hempstead and West Hempstead. They have since been separated.)
Michael
Washington, DC
I know VERY little about getting around on LI.
I'm sure I'll have no problem's now!
There are 2 good ways to get to Uniondale Avenue. Which is the best depends on whether you're going somewhere near Front Street.
If you're going somewhere near Front Street, then use the method that was suggested to you -- LIRR to Hempstead (runs every hour) and then N46/47/48/49 to Front Street and Uniondale Ave. (these are every 20-30 minutes). You'd need to transfer to a second bus if you need a location along Uniondale Ave which isn't near Front St.
If you're going somewhere that is a bit away from Front Street, your better choice is to take the LIRR to Freeport (runs every 30 minutes and takes about 10 minutes less than LIRR to Hempstead, also no change at Jamaica if you're coming from Penn) and then time your connection to the N43 bus running northbound.
See http://www.mta.info/libus/pdf/n43.pdf for the N43 schedule.
Of course, the true transit fan goes out one way and comes home the other way.
CG
http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/dk/diesel/dmu/MG-IC4/DSB_IC4.jpg
The car bodies are of aluminium, and the train is powered by four Iveco diesel engines of a type also used for trucks/lorries. It is made in Italy by Ansaldo and has been given a friendly inviting look. One of the four cars is low-floor and has space for wheelchairs, bicycles, and baby carriages. The new trains will enable DSB to expand the fast InterCityLyn services, and shorten the trip time København-Ålborg by 35 minutes.
Aluminium carbody has not thus far met the FRA requirements for buff strength (IIRC -- at least without steel reinforcement). Specifically, while aluminium extrusions are extremely strong, aluminium basically cannot be welded to the tensile strength required to comply with FRA's crushing standards.
The Iveco diesel engine is likely to be the kind that produces 400-500hp -- not likely to be sufficient once the extra weight is added.
It is made in Italy by Ansaldo and has been given a friendly inviting look.
AnsaldoBreda is the company that built Boston's Type 8's.
Looks very pretty though -- just like most Breda products. They really know how to make the car look good. They're pretty good engineers too, in most cases. Given Siemens-type budget, I am sure they could build a good car. Pity that they don't really know how to make a "good" bid (rather than a "low" bid).
AEM7
Mark
Actually, there is no point. If one car is bad ordered, you yank the whole trainset. There have been studies into this, and the basic conclusion is that if you build multiple redundent systems across the whole trainset, then pulling one car out could cause more problems than it solves. It's better to have the different cars each have independent systems that back each other up, than to have isolated systems that require a car to be pulled out of the consist when it fails. Of course, if the whole system fails, then you have to pull the whole consist, but at that point you don't even know which car is the failure car because it's a "system". It's similar to the "married pairs" concept. It's needed on modern multiple unit equipment.
AEM7
Car with a sticking brake is usually freed by a fitter who crawls under the car and physically unsticks the brake block. A car with a flat spot can run until the end of the day before being taken out of service. An air leak is tolerable if there are enough compressors to keep the brakes just hanging off.
I agree that there are cases where other cars cannot "take over", but in most cases if you build enough redundancy into the consist, the whole consist will be indestructable. For instance the MBTA 01800 cars achieve very high MDBF because even if say the ATO doesn't work in the lead cab and trailing cab of the first set (married pair), there's enough intelligence in the train to allow the middle cab to take over ATO duties and keep the whole consist in service. Again if there is a minor air leak in car 3 then it's not a disaster because with all three compressors pumping maybe the air pressure can be kept up (at least until the end of the line).
AEM7
I always keep out the where it needs to go part just like a new tollroad. If it's on the other side of town it wasn't meant for you in the first place, not the target market I think. Kind of like economy vs 5 star hotels, they aren't out to get each others market share. And with traffic the way it is, length of time hasn't been an issue yet. Anythings faster than 0-10mph. But I'm referring to express limited stop service and rail, not regular service buses, which are obviously not meant for speed.
But yea, I amend my previous post. Besides being attractive to the new user, both stops and equipment, service frequency is right up there too. The two new bus routes I mentioned earlier is far from crowded so far, unfortunately. I think the second route might still be considered new. I don't know about any national trends for similiar cities(except I think I read DART(dallas) is packed, but again that's rail). I'll be making a webpage on those buses in the next two months too(I guess I need to catch up on Bustalk).
So can you help me out with our pathetic Kansas City transit system?
Just when I thought I finished the internet.........
<a href="http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/dk/diesel/dmu/MG-IC4/DSB_IC4.jpg">Breda DMU demo photo</a>
and that will get you this:
Breda DMU demo photo
Mark
BTW: I drove over the Missouri River yesterday, and there was no where near enough water in it to float the Staten Island Ferry. If you were to have transported the Barberri there, not only would it have bottomed out, but you could have stepped from either gunwale to the shore.
: ) Elais
DISCLAIMER: The following is speculation based on what has been posted.
It seems unlikely that missing a single dose of medicine would be the cause of a blackout. More likely is that his blodd pressure was generally under very poor control, and he was not taking his medicines, or eating lots of salt constantly, or a combination of both (plus lots of stress on the job). If he lost consciousness due to his high blood pressure, if it didn't happen that day, it would have happened the next day, or the next week, and he got lucky and didn't suffer the blackout the day before.
If that's indeed the case, it doesn't change my main point - he should not, under any circumstances, been allowed to captain a huge ferry. According to an item in the Times, commercial vessel captains are required to have physical examinations only once every five years. That's way too long an interval, especially for someone like Capt. Smith, who is in his fifties and whose health status can change quite rapidly.
What are NYCT's rules on physical examinations for T/O's and other safety-sensitive workers?
What would cause you to pass out like this is perhaps taking a double dose by mistake, and dropping your blood pressure enough to deprive you brain of oxygen.
Other cardiac issues could include some rythems such as an extended QRS complex, or perhaps dehydration. Seizures are another issue. And while a person with a history of such seizures would not be driving a car let alone a ferry boat, there is ALWAYS a first time for a seizure.
One of my monks passed out in church one morning, and we was not then nor now on any cardiac medications. I suspect the extended QRS complex, but that was not proven.
Bottom line, meds or no meds, people can and do pass out from time to time. One wonders what the captain was doing at the moment. But just because a guy passes out, does not mean that he will fall over, and by the time the captain realizes that the pilot is not functional, it can be too late.
Elias
If you have a known condition like and addiction, diabetes or high blood pressure you get randoms (called rechecks) for those conditions as often as once a month. If you fail the test and you are lucky you get restricted to non-passenger service. If you are unlucky you get NWA (no work available) AND they prevent you from getting unemployment, too.
A recent issue that came to light is that the TA doctors had the prescription drug plan forward employee prescription histories to them without patient knowledge.
But before we go to that, what are the statstics regarding causes of human error in ferry boat crashes.
What does the FAA mandate for commercial pilots?
That's not a trivial job. Any job you do is worth doing well. Do it conscienciously and with pride, and you will have earned the trust and respect of others who depend on you!
Good luck with your future plans.
I'll not discourage you from trying, (my father did that to me often enough), but I would suggest quite a bit of reading on the subject. Maybe Dutchrailnut can point you to the kinds of books you would need to get a high grade on these tests.
As for my friend, he is counting the seconds until he can retire from the railroad. His latest kvetch is that he can not talk to anybody to request a day off or with any other scheduling issue, rather it must all be done by computer. He could not even use my computer to check his schedule, because that would have logged him is a present and available for immediate service (my place is about a five hour drive from his terminal) and could have assigned him to the next train out.
Goodest of luck to you!
Elias
Yes. Everyone likes to blame the engineer, and it might not actually be his fault. The 12-hour rule certainly cut out a lot of fatigue cases, but in Chicagoland I think split shift railroad operators are still allowed, as long as the operator is given mid-day 'nap time' down in the basement level of Chicago Union Station. Someone needs to do some studies as to whether fatigue is a factor, and whether ATS is a better way to go, or simply employ more engineers so there isn't the deal with sleeping 4 hours at a time, 4 at home, 4 at Union Station.
AEM7
Included are:
SF Muni Custom PCC (Landor Scheme) Corgi PCC
SF Muni Custom T8H5305A original colors Corgi
Riverside Transit Agency (California (Custom Corgi TDH5304
Long Island Rail Road Corgi GM fishbowl suburban
Modified Golden Gate Transit GM fishbowl suburban
Easy way to see all of thse? Go to seller sjh50.
Thanks!!
I also thought Iheard that the "Orion"has resurfaced in recent years, someone supposedly found her down in South Carolina. Anyone elese hear of this?
After Boone crushed one to LF, I called 1SF9 last night and left a voice message, of course he he hasn't returned my call so far.
Congratulate the team all you want, they performed well and deserve it, but why would you congratulate the FANS? The only things the fans have done is have the weakness to choose a team that always wins so they can celebrate all the time.
A
AA
B
CC
D
E
F (1975 I think??)
GG
LL
M
QB
Tony Leong
The R-44 deliveries ended the use of old cars on the A and D. Also, the R1/4s on the CC were replaced by R-6s that had formerly been on the Queens Blvd. routes.
wayne
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
FAREWELL TO THE REDBIRDS.
#3 West End Jeff
FAREWELL TO THE REDBIRDS.
#3 West End Jeff
FAREWELL TO THE REDBIRDS.
Regards,
Jimmy
If you think about the mechanical path between where the force
is generated (the output shaft of the traction motor) and
the mass that is accelerated (the body via the body bolster)
there are a lot of things in between. Ideally these things
have very little wear and slop, but in reality, as components
age, slop increases. Or, if you want to look at it simply,
the truck slides forward until the slop in the bolster is taken
up, then the body starts to move.
Sorry, that's what I thought the guy meant, a repetitive klunking noise. You are right, there are many things that could introduce slack and resulting in ONE clunk sound every time a train starts. AEM7
http://www.mta.info/nyct/hr/pdf_exams/conductor.pdf
I've tried 2 computers, but the damn thing locks up without downloading. Is it my computer, or the MTA's website which is fouling me up? I have 4 days to get this thing filed, and I don't want to have to go down to Rector St.
I mailed one out yesterday; I'm going to try and beat my score of 6/26/1999.
wayne
My intention isn't be be an ass, but I'm just pointing out how a lot of threads can be consisdered off topic and this judgement is subjective in nature.
We apologize that we were unable to respond to your email sooner. The level of public interest in our first openhousenewyork weekend has been overwhelming for our three person staff. We relied on our site sponsors to verify the transportation to each of their sites, but we will know to triple check next year.
We hope you were able to find your way to some of our sites, nonetheless, and enjoy the weekend of free open houses. We'd love to add you to our email and mailing lists to keep you updated on programs and events leading up to next year's OHNY weekend. Our website, www.ohny.org, is the best source of information for OHNY events throughout the year. Thanks again for your interest in openhousenewyork.
regards,
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Now here is my response, clarifying why it's so important to use the knowledge you learned in grammar school to everyday basic reading comprehension, such as reading tables. Here is my text:
The importance of what we learned from grammar school all the way up to undergraduate studies (and sometimes, graduate studies) also applies to what we should read today. It is so sad that our public school system is among the worst in the state in standardized test scores and the fault is not the children but outside forces that I won't divulge into. If I asked an expert in the educational field on how to evaluate the grade level in comprehending a subway map, and a table on the map itself, what would people say if the map can be understood by a fourth of fifth grader? It is really sad that the basics of understanding a subway map are not mastered in the same way that mastery of the World Atlas was required in Junior High School (for example).
I am still proud of what New Yorkers can put on a display of rich history by people organizing this event but I am not surprised at the lack of proper comprehension in reading a basic (mind you!) subway map. On the subway map itself, there is a table at the bottom right side that lists every subway line operating and is broken down by different periods of the day (Rush Hour, weekdays, evenings, etc.). Some subway lines, like the B, 9, and Z, have NO SERVICE in some parts of the grid when reading row-wise so how do people just put these lines as part of the travel directions is beyond me. Since the events all take place on a weekend, then the column, WEEKEND should be read to determine what lines are running where. Again, this is a table that should be mastered by a student in the latter part of elementary school or Junior High, at most. And if I was a NY State certified teacher (though it is not my occupation) and I had to grade a term paper, I would have no choice to give a score of 40 for the total failure of reading such a table of instructions.
I also boycotted the event as such, it's time people should learn more about maps and history, rather than what's happening with the J. Lo and Ben soap opera. If I took a survey on whether the 9 line operates on weekends, you might be surprised at how many people really know about their subway line they use. I have also reported matters like these to the media and NYC Transit themselves for the incorrect information. (A NY media source about the part time booth closings last August, incorrectly mentioned the J train goes to West 8th St and Ocean parkway in Brooklyn, these stations are closed and are served by the Q line.) Maybe if the directions improve next time, then I will pay a visit to some of the buildings in the next event that will be taking place.
P.S. In another example: an Jeopardy episode that aired in around 1998 had college students participating. One of the "answers" was a picture of the late King Hussein of Jordan, which was plastered all over the newspapers up until his death and I quickly knew it was him while watching that episode. What was so shocking about this is that one of the students who was supposed to identify the picture (in question format, or course), incorrectly mentioned someone else. And this is current events that college students should know about what is going on in the world today?
Thank you for deleting the off-topic threads.
I'm not into sports, but I can make the comparison that being a railfan in SEPTA-land is a lot like rooting for the Cubs...
Mark
I'm not treated to a Redbird update every ten minutes on 1010 WINS.
There aren't multiple TV channels devoted to nothing but subways.
There isn't an entire section in the newspaper -- in some cases half of the entire paper -- set aside for nothing but subways.
Few of us assume that anyone we run into on the street knows the difference between an R-38 and an R-68.
It's one thing to have a particular narrow interest; it's quite another for a particular narrow interest to be thrust onto all, like it or not.
And 90% of the Alpha Males who plunk their Suit-Covered Anuses onto (too-small) LIRR seats are NOT reading the subway pages :)
My problem with your post was not your agreeing with the deletion of the threads , That was warranted and had taken up too much of the forum . My problem was with you saying how you "can't understand your fellow Americans...." . First of all , unlike railfanism , "sportsism" is something that it is covered in many people's interest . That is why it overtook the board for a brief evening . Many people here were feeling it . The same can't be said of people talking about the Redbirds .
"Few of us assume that anyone we run into on the street knows the difference between an R-38 and an R-68."
Very true , but ask them if they know the difference between the Yankees and the Mets whether they follow sports or not .
"There isn't an entire section of the newspaper -- in some cases half the newspaper -- set aside for nothing but subways."
Correct again . But many people buy the paper just for the sports section . They would sell relatively few papers
if they covered Redbird sightings and information in multiple pages . The Yankees game is a news event , unlike the ongoing passing of the Redbirds . That will be a one page news event , if you are lucky , when that only when they are finally gone . 99% of the people buying the papers don't care , and even if they do , it won't catch their interest for more than the time it took to read it , and maybe will spend a half a day going to the Transit museum after reading it , and that's it . Many people but the paper just for the sports coverage .
"There aren't multipe TV channels set aside for nothing but subways."
"I'm not treated to Redbird updates everey 10 minutes on 1010 WINS."
See my respose to the newspaper subject .
"I don't see dozens of posts to sports boards about the status of the Redbirds."
Correct again . But everyone here knows what they are talking about when they mention the Yankees , and there are many here interested in the World Series . On a sports board you are lucky if even half the New Yorkers on those boards know what we mean by a Redbird .
Again , Railfanism is a very small minority of people . Sports is not . That is why a paper or the news will cover it . People (yes not everybody) want to hear about it .
Just look at the responses I got to my earlier post for an example of what happens when someone dares to proclaim that he has no interest in sports. How many of us have developed an interest in sports in response to peer pressure?
How is it any more beneficial to know that R143 cars run on the L line then it is to know that Mariano Rivera has a 0.88 post season ERA?
Perhaps someone who likes baseball but is a good photographer decides to work for his highschool newspaper because he isn't athletic but loves baseball so much. This person can take their love of baseball and channel it into something else like photography (art) or journalism (writing).
There are also studies that say young girls who play sports are less likely to get pregnant at a young age, or engage in other harmful behavior like drug/alcohol use.
Your opinion that an interest in sports can lead to no beneft is very shortsighted and narrowminded.
Nobody said that it was. A peculiar interest is a peculiar interest, and there's nothing wrong with one. I wouldn't expect a random person on the street to know what cars run on the L or even to know what an R-143 is or care that they run on the L; why do Americans expect random people on the street to know or care about ERA's? The only Rivera I know is a SubTalk poster.
Perhaps someone who likes baseball but is a good photographer decides to work for his highschool newspaper because he isn't athletic but loves baseball so much. This person can take their love of baseball and channel it into something else like photography (art) or journalism (writing).
Great. Just as some people have genuine interests in subways, some people have general interests in sports.
There are also studies that say young girls who play sports are less likely to get pregnant at a young age, or engage in other harmful behavior like drug/alcohol use.
But who here is playing sports? Don't you think it's just a little bit pathetic that millions of Americans have the emotional highlights of their lives when they hear on the radio that two teams, consisting of people they've never even met, played a game of baseball, and that one of them won?
Your opinion that an interest in sports can lead to no beneft is very shortsighted and narrowminded.
But that isn't my opinion at all, and I never stated it. Genuine interests are almost always of value. False interests promoted by peer pressure and heavy advertising are usually of little value, and if they happen to consume a lot of time and energy, then they detract from true interests of great value.
But David, Can't you say that phrase the same way about what we do here at SubTalk? Why is that pathetic that millions of people liek watching a game? Is that more pathetic than someone standing on a subway platform taking photos of trains they will never be able to operate, and that one of them rides between Atlantic Avenue and Chauncey Street instead of Atlantic Ave and Bushwick-Aberdeen?
Why do people have to play sports to like watching it. It's no different than people taking photos of trains they can not ever operate. Knowing the players is the same as knowing what numbers make up the R143 fleet, and copying down which ones they rode on today.
Great. Just as some people have genuine interests in subways, some people have general interests in sports.
Why is interest in trains "genuine", but interest in sports "general"?
why do Americans expect random people on the street to know or care about ERA's?
I don't think most Anericans expect everyone to be interested in sports, or what an ERA is (the sports one or the rail one, but I'm sure more people know the sports meaning of it.)
Typo. I meant "genuine" for both. But there's a fine line between interest and idol worship.
I don't think most Anericans expect everyone to be interested in sports, or what an ERA is (the sports one or the rail one, but I'm sure more people know the sports meaning of it.)
Then why is it that I'm often asked if I'm a Yankee fan or a Mets fan without being first asked if I follow sports to begin with? And when I politely explain that I really don't care one way or the other, I get a puzzled look in response.
We've seen it here. A number of SubTalkers seem to think that direct access to Yankee Stadium is the sole determinant of the best possible service plan. I don't know if they think that most subway trips are to or from Yankee Stadium or if they simply consider the ones two and from Yankee Stadium as more important as the ones to and from other places, but either way, they seem to be giving sports much more influence than it's due.
Well, that I agree with. I think it was so absurd that someone mentioned that Brighton riders "want" direct service to 161st Street, and that is "key" to determining whether the B or the D should run on the Brighton. Now that is absurd.
That's true too. But that phenomena is not unique to sports fans. We have all been in the midst of people that take sports WAY to seriously, but let us not forget that we also all have been in the midst of foamers that take railfanning WAY to seriously too. The spectacle of cursing and screaming photographers at Beach 90th St back in june on the MOD trip was an example used here in the past. But there are many smaller examples to of overzelous people at the railfan windows. In any hobby/interest there are fanatics. Anything taken to the extreme is bad. Our lives do not depend on that perfect photo, missing the railfan window sometimes, or the Yankees winning or loosing the World series. Unfortunately there are many idol worshipers whether it be sports, trains, or door-knob collectors.
At least railfanning can be done on a reasonable budget. I knew a couple of men some years back, who (separately) were fanatics about restoring older cars. An interesting hobby, to be sure, but in both cases it turned into a real money pit. Boating is another example of a popular diversion that can be very expensive.
$75 to ride mainline steam from Scranton to East Stroudsburg is outrageous. Tickets should be more like $35.
What is an overwhelming interest in (and excitement over) final sports scores (as opposed to the details of the actual plays) if not my-deity-is-better-than-your-deity?
Aunt Clara, from Bewitched, is my favorite.
Peace,
ANDEE
Very well said, I agree 100%. But, as far as baseball is concerned, I am a Toronto Blue Jays fan, and that "exclusivity" feeling backfired back in 1992 and 1993 when they were World Champions. Because I live(d) in the New York City area, I had nobody to root with or celebrate with, since 99% of baseball fans here are either Yankees or Mets fans. Of course, that invalidates David J. Greenberger's assessment that people get into sports as a result of "peer pressure". If I was so worried about "peer pressure", I would have been a Yankees or Mets fan like all of my "peers" were. And remember that "Seinfeld" episode when Elaine refused to remove her Baltimore Oriole hat while sitting in the owner's box at Yankee Stadium? She did not succomb to "peer pressure" either.
Now you don't actually believe that do you? I admit, my interest in the subway is much greater than my interest in sports, just like someone else's interest in sports may be greater than their interest in cars or whatever. But the statement you made can be made about just about anything people spend time at. "Wasting" time here is no different than paying attention to sports. Maybe we should all pay less attention to the subway so that we can start "paying attention to other topics that might actually benefit us in some way (directly or indirectly) or be of true interest." But I don't think that is the answer. I don't see any difference in that statement than the statement you said, except for the fact that more people spend time paying attention to sports than the subway.
And here, now we're on topic again:
YANKEES 2003!!!!!
And I agree with the Orion comment, I never liked those, until I found low-floor buses, now I will tolerate them.
A lot of the transit related threads lately are pretty boring anyway. How many times can one read about how someone hates R-62s and can't go on living because the redbirds are going away?
Part of what makes this message board interesting is the opinionated and varied personalities of the posters. Strictly limiting conversations to transit only is somewhat foolish because it only lets you see one side of a person. It's also unreasonable to expect everyone to go join a sports forum to talk about sports...I think the people that come here post things because they are interested in hearing a response from the community here at nycsubway.org.
It's not my server or my money, but a more robust message board like phpMyBBS which allows for different forums to be created (subtalk, bustalk, everythign else) would be kinda cool, that way there would be a special place for off topic threads.
Seems like Jackson Heights around the 7 line is a mecca of really good restaurants...you can combine your rail and food adventures!
Anyway, before that, I was only there to catch the transit infrastructure, before the reconstruction even began? Unfortunately, I chose West 8th as the station for waiting for the F home. The stench there was overpowering and it WASN'T the sea air.
TRANSIT references on DOUBLE DARE 2000 this past week:
-What do the initials BART stand for in San Francisco?
(the kid answers "a train system" and the punk host wanted
more specifics.. cost the kid the game when time expired on THAT question)
-Another night, a team called themselves, THE BLUE BIRDS...
their opponents, dressed in RED were called..... you guessed it!!
THE RED BIRDS. (RED BIRDS won the game).
NYC Subways on Blind Date 'New York' (SPIKE TV last night):
-Dan Drucker of "7 Secrets of Grand Central" greeted a couple on their
date (shown entering the Main Waiting Room) and proceeded to give
them a tour of the MNRR Operations Center/Switchboard room.
-an R142a 6 Train was shown departing the 4/5/6 GCT Platform sb.
1TapeBoi9
NY Underground (featuring the Ultimate Ride) will be RE-AIRING
next Wednesday Oct 22 on DISCOVERY TIMES at the following showtimes:
Wednesday: 8pm 11pm
Thursday: 4am 7am 12noon 3p
2. According to the minimum requirements for exam 3014, a driver's licence is not listed (only a valid I.D.). I was under the impression you needed a valid licence for any MTA job. Anyone know?
Click submit... BAM, I entered the expiration date in the wrong format...
No problem, reenter the entire credit card section again, with the right date.
Submit... BAM... Invalid student advantage number...
Why couldn't it tell me this the first time?? oh well, my bad, i skipped 4 digits, enter it AND Credit Card info again..
Submit... BAM... Invalid security code
I think, ok, musta mistyped with all the re-entering... so i enter the credit card info AGAIN, with what i think is the right code...
Submit... BAM... Invalid code again!
Ok, let me actually look at the card this time... oops, it really is the wrong code... enter card info YET AGAIN, with the right code...
Submit... BAM... Too many unusccessful tries with this card. Please use a different card.
I DON'T HAVE A DIFFERENT CARD YOU PIECE OF $#!T!!!!
Now what do I do? It's a Albany - NY with stopover in Croton Harmon ticket, with an internet-only discount code, along with Guest Rewards and Student Advantage. Not the easiest thing in the world to convey to "Julie", or to a human in the train station when I have 20 minutes between the first bus getting there and the train leaving...
Maybe it's just a 24-hour lock out?
Part of the point of the security code is that even someone who finds your credit card number (without stealing the actual card) can't use the card without it. So when "minor corrections" include changing the security code, it can and should count as a strike against you.
On the other hand, they should (if they were intelligent and customer-oriented about this, which is not a guarantee) have a way of dealing with this if you call them up. Even if they can't book the fare because of the web discount, maybe they can unlock the credit card number so you can enter it again.
And it locked me out the exact try I had gotten it all right!
In general for this kind of thing it doesn't matter if you're entering different codes or the same wrong one, as long as it's incorrect you'll get screwed. Happens to me all the time with simple user/password forms, I think I mistyped my password when in fact I entered the wrong one completely. By the time I realize this, I have to make a phone call to unlock my account. =(
Also, it should have told me everything I did wrong in one shot, instead of bitching the second it gets to the first error.
I agree that that's bad design.
I have no need for more than the two, in truth one would suffice, except in this case.
Thanks to AP indirectly giving me the idea, I still got the best possible fare, and won't have to suffer explaining a 3 hour stopover in Croton Harmon to an agent in the 10 minutes i'll have had to buy the ticket...
But the system did what it wa designed to do.
My advice? Enter the information SLOWLY and carefully. That's difficult when you're in a hurry. Or call 800-USA-RAIL or talk to a ticket agent.
OK, here's a toughy I think most people would be interested in because it's a general transit question as well--here goes: If I were to ask what was the LAST grade crossing to be eliminated I would have 100 answers in the first two minutes, but what was the SECOND to LAST grade crossing to be eliminated?
Yes, I know we had a discussion a while back as to what was the second to last crossing, but we couldn't figure on another crossing that ever existed and had THIRD RAIL. All the older grade crossings were on lines with trolley wire.
Now, going over my researches I found at least one more grade crossing that meets the criteria that we would generally apply to E105, to wit:
1. A PUBLIC road, open to all.
2. A THIRD RAIL crossing (third rail both sides of crossing)
3. A part of the current rapid transit system (i.e., not in a shop or on the SIRT). You can still ride on this line.
4. Crossed by REGULAR SERVICE PASSENGER trains.
This is NOT a trick question, but it requires fairly minute knowledge of the system's history. If anyone even gets the name of the line, I'll be satisfied. If anyone can tell me the name of the road and/or its location, you'll be able to knock me over with a feather (feather not inclided).
I'd say the M before Metro Mall opened. Way before the mall.
While I no longer think the 2nd to last grade crossing was on the Rockaway Branch (from new photo evidence presented, and I think Paul said it was on the BMT/BRT, which the Rock isn't), the Rockaway branch remained on grade level around Howard Beach and Broad Channel, even after the rest of the line was elevated. So it was possible in that section (although unlikely), but was of course impossible in the rebuilt and elevated portion on past the wye, and north of North Conduit Ave, as that was all either elevated on viaduct, or put on embankment.
So that leaves us:
The L is out, unless there was a second grade crossing on that line, which may be a possibility.
The West End I'm pretty sire is out, unless something happened around the 9th Ave station somewhere, other than that I think it's out.
The A line between the wye and North Conduit Ave.
My answer is either at Howard Beach or Broad Channel
NOT LIRR or ex-LIRR.
The line is on the same grade now as it was when the grade crossing existed. In fact, you can ride over the very spot on a regular service train, though I doubt there is any physical evidence of it remaining.
It cannot be in the Bronx.
It MIGHT be on the (3) line in Manhattan by the Lenox Yard... (But of course that could not be the BRT/BMT)
It MIGHT have been a grade crossing on the Sea Beach or West End inside of the CIY limits.
It MIGHT be on the Franklin in the area of Botanic Garden.
And it *Could* be on the Atlantic Avenue Line from before its LIRR days.
HMMMMmmmm......
Elias
How about the Brighton Beach Line somewhere in the vicinity of Chruch Avenue? The 1905 (or is it '07?) open cut ends north of Beverley Road and the line rose to the surface there before the dual contracts section opened in the late Teens.
Or, was it one of the lines to the old depots on the beach at Coney Island -- after dual contracts rebuilding but before the terminal at Stillwell opened in the late '20s?
How about the Brighton Beach Line somewhere in the vicinity of Chruch Avenue? The 1905 (or is it '07?) open cut ends north of Beverley Road and the line rose to the surface there before the dual contracts section opened in the late Teens.
The section from south of Park Place to south of Church Avenue was always grade-separated, so there is no question of there having been a grade crossing there.
Or, was it one of the lines to the old depots on the beach at Coney Island -- after dual contracts rebuilding but before the terminal at Stillwell opened in the late '20s?
The only line that could feasibly have had third rail grade crossings in the interim period would have been the Brighton from Brighton Beach to Culver Depot, but that section always had trolley wire only.
I'm posting a picture in about 10 minutes which should ring some bells though it won't give the name of the road or the reason for the crossing's existence.
After I see the responses tomorrow morning I will post a PIC of the actual crossing.
Thanks Paul, just let us suffer until tomorrow : ) Luckily I won't be near the computer again to sulk about it until tomorrow anyway!
I hope I'm not teasing you guys too much. As I said, this is NOT a trick question and I don't think you've used up all your clues. A few people have nibbled around the right answer but have gotten side-tracked.
I'm really enjoying all the good thought everyone's putting into this. History lives!
But... Hehehehe.... I did some cheating, but will not tell about that until the game is over.
Elias
Elias
Now, some details of this very unusual crossing. The picture is actually taken in 1907 on the embankment (therefore the current right-of-way) from the north of end of temporary Avenue J station.
The view is north to the McGaws Lane grade crossing. McGaws Lane is a disappeared road which, at the turn of the century, was the only through east-west road between Foster Avenue to the north and Kings Highway to the south. It ran from Flatbush Avenue to Coney Island Avenue. It crossed the Brighton Line a little south of the current line of Avenue I.
When the Brighton was grade-separated McGaws Lane and a number of other early roads were slated to disappear beneath new developments, but it was still too important to eliminate before other roads were completed, though they weren't going to build an underpass for a highway soon to disappear. So the answer was that they built shallow earthen ramps on each side of the right-of-way and a grade crossing on the embankment, which isn't very high above street level at this location.
This second-to-last (and probably only, with E105) third rail grade crossing was probably eliminated, along with McGaws Lane, in 1908.
I was gonna say that, but I thought it's elimination would have been too long ago to be the "next-to-last" grade crossing eliminated!
And of course we all know about E105. As late as the 1950's, you didn't need an explanation of why they didn't bother eliminating that one.
Were there any other such "temporary" grade crossings on the subway?
Peace,
ANDEE
I get it the old fashioned way--I look it up in the encyclopedia!
Just kidding--this was--what would be the word? Synchronicity? Serendipity? I've acquired a lot of snippets of information in more than four decades, some in my head, some on paper. I knew about the McGaws Lane grade crossing, but didn't realize that it had installed third rail before it was eliminated until I took a new look at that photo and understood exactly what I was looking at.
This bit of history became more interesting when put into the context of the question of third rail grade crossings.
Only one within NYC limits that I know of, that being Little Neck Parkway on the Pt. Washington line. I'm not sure about Borden Avenue between Hunterspoint and LIC.
BTW, I counted ... looks like chicago has over two dozen, on four different lines.
It's an excellent source of iron!
LMFAO.
And STOP ASKING THIS MOTHERF*CKING QUESTION, CDTA!!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
***
At long last, I learned from officialdom at Muni that it's confirmed:
Muni will be purchasing 15 of the ex-Newark, NJ PCCs.
Despite reports throughout the Internet--mostly from the East
Coast--that the deal had been worked out, I was compelled to wait until
I could get confirmation through high-placed Muni sources. This
occurred on Tuesday afternoon at a divisional meeting.
The deal still has to be ratified by the Municipal Transportation
Agency and the city Board of Supervisors. Also, I don't know what the
purchase price will be. Also, a rehab company will need to be chosen.
The cars will receive sufficient modifications to permit F-Line
service, and will be repainted consistent with the rest of the F-Line
fleet--in paint schemes of other operators.
***
I wonder what will happen to the eight remaining cars. I believe three have been set aside for the planned museum in Phillipsburg, but I don't know about the others. I think at one point NJT was going to retain a couple of cars for fantrips, but they haven't run any PCC's since 2001 that I know of so that seems questionable. Well, at least these cars won't end up like the Shaker cars that sat for years after retirement.
Frank Hicks
I know it's way too crazy, and too illogical, but a dude can dream can he?
Both for the F line and for the proposed E line.
The operation is a streetcar line, not a heritage line. The cars get a crush load every day, and cars get hit, accidents happen, and cars go OOS for months.
The Newark cars are to supplement the current fleet, not as replaements. The purchase is a requirement of UMTA rules for getting Federal funding for necessary work that is needed to SF service, notably inward opening front doors, backup controllers and some other work.
UMTA rules don't allow for leased equipment to be funded.
I'm glad the Jersey Pols saw the "light". Better to sell them now than keep the whole fleet for heritage lines that may never happen.
Straight down the Embarcadero from Fishermans Wharf to the Caltrain Depot.
Sharing tracks with the F line as far as the Ferry Terminal, then existing service links to the point where the N line surfaces, then sharing with the N line to Caltrain. Presumably a new loop will need to be constructed at Caltrain, as the current terminus is designed for the double-ended LRVs used on the N line.
Map of third ave LRT extension
In some circles, it has already been designated as a T.
Thanks
Mark
That wouldn't be a good idea. Why would MUNI repaint these PCC's in NJT colors since they didn't repaint the ex-SEPTA PCC's in their old livery ?
MUNI will continue the tradition of painting each overhauled Newark PCC in original colors of different operators who ran them. I think Detroit Street Railways has not yet been represented, also the original Brooklyn Packyderm gray may qualify. There are others too.
Bill "Newkirk"
I never said I thought MUNI would actually do it. It's just what I would do. Actually, if it were up to me, I would have kept some PCCs in SEPTA colors. I think the SEPTA era and the NJT era are both part of PCC history.
Just because MUNI won't do it doesn't mean it isn't a good idea.
And even if they won't use NJT colors, the old gray colors that the Newark PCC colors originally wore isn't represented on MUNI's lines yet, either. Why not use those, since they are actually a part of these particular cars' history? Maybe I'm a purist, but I'd like to see these cars wear colors that they actually wore at one time before.
Mark
Mark
Uh, I hate to break this to you, but...
Photo taken from this very site. Muni 1060 (ex-SEPTA 2715) has been painted this way since it was rebuilt by M-K nearly a decade ago.
This car was T-boned by a light pole last year, and just within the past week or two was brought into the shop for repair work. The rumor mill says that one of the NJT cars will inherit 1060's livery, and 1060 will now be painted in some other city's livery. I don't know whether the NJT rainbow colors will be represented in the NJT fleet but I wouldn't be too surprised. I would also guess that a TCRT-painted car is pretty safe to bet on.
Frank Hicks
Thanks for the great photo!
Mark
Twin Cities Rapid Transit
Minneapolis-St.Paul
Bill "Newkirk"
Mark
She now wears the original TCRT yellow and wears her original number (#322). For photos of #322 try.....http://www.mtmuseum.org/index.html?body=chsl/
Bill "Newkirk"
By "MI" I assume you mean "Minnesota" and not "Michigan"... :-)
You're correct - 322 was the car's original Twin Cities Rapid Transit number, whereas 3 is the number it wore in Newark and on Shaker Heights.
Frank Hicks
The photo of it is of xMBTA 3321 shown on Bob Diamond's properety in Brooklyn.
I certainly hope MUNI does a little more reearch on original paint colors. Some PCC's colors were way off the mark. The Public Service gray and white was one of them.
Bill "Newkirk"
http://community.webshots.com/photo/3849554/42853033yzCOVG
I've been told that the type of paint Muni uses costs $850 per gallon, which means it's probably something that is 1) very good quality, 2) highly dangerous, and 3) soon to be illegal. Anyway, they don't want more types of paint to worry about than they really have to have. From an economic standpoint it makes sense.
Frank Hicks
Where did MUNI buy that paint.....Tiffany's ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I think that includes application/labor costs. Modern paint like Imron costs about $60-150 per gallon, but with all of the health hazards you need to go to a lot of trouble to spray it - airtight spray booth, breathers for the workers, etc.
Frank Hicks
Do the buses all over the city show 25 Jamaica Avenue as the address of New York City Transit Authority on the registration sticker, or does it depend on the division?
Airport beacons, located on airport property, use an alternating green and white rotating beacon.
Redbird Entering 33rd Street-Rawson
2nd Redbird Photo at 33rd-Rawson
Redbird Exiting 33rd-Rawson Towards Manhattan
Redbird Entering 33rd-Rawson Queens Bound (Tilted Photo! A Personal Favorite)
Redbird Stationary at 33rd-Rawson (Tilted Photo!)
Redbird Exiting 45th Rd-Court House Sq Queens Bound (Tilted Photo!)
Redbird Exiting 45th Road Manhattan Bound (The Best Photo of the Day)
Same Redbird About to Dissappear
Redbird at 45th Road (Tilted Photo!)
Redbird Entering 45th Road Queens Bound (Tilted Photo!)
Redbird Posing at Woodside Next to the Sign
Redbird Exiting Woodside-Manhattan Bound
2nd Photo of a Redbird Exiting Woodside-Manhattan Bound
Up and Close Photo With a Redbird at Woodside (Tilted Photo!)
That's a pretty bold statement. Anyhow, thanks for the nice photos.
J,M,Z nassau st local&express:100% R42,with some R40M mixed in(car#,s4530 to 4549)
diamond Q broadway express:100% R40 and R40M,runs only on a weekday service.
C 8th av local:100% R32&R38
E 8th av local:99% R32 with 1 or 2 R46 running.
F 6 th av local:20% mostly R46 with a few R32 running.
N broadway local:47% R40,R40m(R40M 4460 and R42 4665).
R broadway local:20% mostly R46 with some R32 running.
A 8th av express:50% mostly R44,but has R38 and some R32 running.
W broadway express:17% mostly R68A,but has some R40M running weekday and weekends.
L 14st-canarsie:10% mostly R143,but has one set of R42 running.
i,am not going to the IRT,cause the IRT almost has no railfanwindows subway cars at all.the 7 line is like only the IRT line that even has
railfanwindow subway cars.1 or 2 sets of redbirds and the R62A,but on
those cars you have a railfanwindow going to times sq,that,s about it.
the rest of the IRT lines(1,2,3,4,5,6,9)are R62,R62A,R142 and R142A.
which have no railfanwindows at all.only the IND/BMT are stacked with
railfanwindow subway car(R32,R38,R40,R40M and R42).
til next time
The W never runs R-40(M)'s on weekdays unless something unusual is going on. On weekends both the W and the Q run a few R-40(M) sets.
The 3 still has some R-62A singles remaining, so if you're lucky you can catch a railfan window there, but they won't last long.
9583-82
9595-94
9617-16 (if not this set, then it's 9716-17 but i don't remember)
9306
9318
9316
9611-10 (I'm not sure if these are the numbers)
These all aren't part of one continuous trainset, but these are some of the cars still in service.
Correct?
-Stef
Train Consist - (Main St) 9734-35-9309-9613-12-9608-09-9610-11-9595-94 (TS).
-Stef
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
FAREWELL TO THE REDBIRDS.
-Broadway Buffer
The question is: The 4s that leave 161st St. after 12:30 a.m. run local in Manhattan. Did the 4 specials that ran that night run local or express in Manhattan?
The worst was picking up at #2 at 149th at about 1:20 a.m. All trains were using the uptown track. Significant delays.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Thanks
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I don't know numbers but I can tell you the Queens Blvd Line (from 179 to Queens Plaza, or whereabouts) are designated as "D." The Manhattanbound local track is D1; Manhattanbound express track is D3; Jamaicabound local track is D2 and Jamaicabound Express is D4.
The crosstown line (at least from Court Sq to Fulton St) is designated "E," with the Court Sq-bound track designated as E2 and the Smith 9 St bound track designated as E1.
The 7 line is designated as "C."
The B'way Manhattan Bridge tracks I think are designated H1 and H2.
B'way local (at least between Canal and 57 St) is designated as A1 and A2. The code changes to G1 and G2 between 57 St and Fifth Avenue/59 St. The G1/G2 code continues into Astoria.
If anyone has corrections, please post them.
Peace,
ANDEE
But when Dennis Riga showed up, I hid!
--Mark
LOL!
Didn't happen on Sat, will see on Sun?
-Stef
P.S. I saw a rather tall gentleman boarding a downtown #3 train at 72nd St on Friday night. I wonder who that was???
-Stef
It was nice meeting you.
Chuck Greene
TransitChuckG
Chuck Greene
Kids will be kids and maybe this one has grown up some because of this experience ?
8-)~ Sparky
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We had open cars in service Saturday and most likely Sunday.
'Course, we are south of the Mason-Dixon Line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Z--
--Z--
GO SOX!!! :(
--Z--
In a nutshell, W's were empty, and N's ran perhaps every 10 minutes, overflowing with passengers. If you can't imagine, that really pissed a lot of the late crammed copmmuters off. The short express hop didn't save much time anyway...
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?!
You have entered the....
TWILIGHT ZONE!!!!!
...echo continues...
...THE TWILIGHT ZONE
...THE TWILIGHT ZONE
...THE TWILIGHT ZONE
...THE TWILIGHT ZONE
...THE TWILIGHT ZONE
Seems like Alternative G has been excised. That puts a damper on the conclusion regarding “maximizing use of existing facilities” since Grand Central cannot be used optimally now.
I noticed that they are still focuseed on one-seat rides to Manhattan and completely ignoring Hoboken Terminal in the process, the glaring feature in particular being that illogical loop track which would force trains through the Secaucus Junction Station twice (and really negates the point of that station if you really think about it).
The primary focus remains on getting trains in and out of Manhattan across the Hudson River, and by eliminating the possibility of a second Manhattan terminal, they have neglected Lower Manhattan. The focus on one-seat rides is far too pervasive, also. JMHO…
But you can have a say in this:
Quote from the website: "A Regional Citizens’ Liaison Committee (RCLC) will be developed to foster communication between municipalities in the ARC primary study area and the project team. Open houses and workshops will beheld to reach a wide range of potentially affected parties with information on the project. Station area planning sessions will be held for selected candidate station areas identified in the short-listed alternatives."
They absolutely should hear from you.
For the record, I believe that if the ARC effort results in getting a new two-track Hudson tube implemented for Amtrak and NJ Transit, ARC will have earned my respect many times over. That tunnel is more important than ANYTHING else in that whole set of proposals COMBINED. If Penn Station (or a new station in lower Manhattan) gets additional platforms and tracks, that's gravy.
Without additional track capacity under the Hudson, additional berths at Penn or anywhere else are worthless unless they primarily serve Long Island (but that is already being done: it's called East Side Access).
How will a new tunnel help if there are no platforms for the trains to stop at? Everyone says the current station can't handle more trains even if the tunnels could.
Everyone doesn't say that. The ARC planners may be saying that, but there is not convincing data to support them. The berthing capacity at Penn Station is directly affected by the under-river capacity.
If you increase that, then trains can more quickly clear their berths, allowing other trains in. Note that trains going eastbound have four tracks of capacity (on the way to six whe ESA opens); westbound only 2.
Now, I'm not opposed to additional berthing capacity in Manhattan stations. But the new Hudson tube will allow greater throughput in Penn all by itself. For one example, less dwell time for Amtrak trains traveling through NY.
Penn can be improved by addinmg platforms. But they are worthless without a new Hudson tube.
The notion that Penn's platforms are already saturated is false.
But you're very wrong now.
And you have no data to support your position.
In the East Side Access EIS, MTA cites a lack of terminal capacity as a reason why LIRR can't run more trains into Penn Station during the peak hour.
NJ Transit wants to run more trains into Penn in order to accommodate the growth that it is experiencing as a result of Midtown Direct, and will soon experience as a result of the Secaucus Transfer. Yes, you're right, this is due to a combination of terminal capacity and tunnel capacity problems. But curiously, they say they could run a few more trains if some "near-term improvements" are made, such as longer storage tracks beyond tracks 1-4. That suggests that terminal capacity, and not exclusively tunnel capacity, is the issue.
I find the agencies' claims persuasive. What is your evidence for claiming otherwise?
Not to mention, that there are not many places of employment near Penn Station, requiring the use of NYC transit anyway. PATH from Hoboken provides actually better options (and a seat) for those working in Manhattan. Kind of what Larry Littlefield advocates for LIRR Downtown access.
PATH access to East Side or GC would pretty much make that system serve most employment areas in Manhattan.
Arti
Maybe not like the extreme concentration of office related jobs over on the east side of Midtown, around Grand Central, but there are plenty of places of business all around Penn Station. Many small companies near the Herald Square area, on 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th Avenues, for one. Also along all the cross streets. These establishments might not employ armies of clerks, etc., but still are significant in number of total jobs for the city.
I've temped numerous times in the Tenderloin district. If it was when I lived on Long Island, I would take the LIRR to Penn and just walk to work.
Pay for it with a commuter tax: everyone pays, everyone gets. I'd run the new tunnel direct to Grand Central on 43rd Street with a stop at Times Square, as the RPA proposed, then down Second Avenue on additional express tracks to bring MetroNorth riders to Lower Manhattan, then on to Atlantic Terminal to bring LIRR and Airtrain riders to Lower Manhattan. No need for a costly new multi-platform terminal in Manhattan: the terminals would be Jamaica and Secaucus Transfer.
In exchange for forcing city residents to endure construction to benefit those in the suburbs, the commuter tax could also be used to pay for the (non-federal portion of the) regular Second Avenue Subway tracks south of 42nd Street. Boom -- the whole thing is built and paid for, charged to the very wealthy beneficiaries.
Very funny.
Seems like Alternative G has been excised. That puts a damper on the conclusion regarding “maximizing use of existing facilities” since Grand Central cannot be used optimally now.
I noticed that they are still focuseed on one-seat rides to Manhattan and completely ignoring Hoboken Terminal in the process, the glaring feature in particular being that illogical loop track which would force trains through the Secaucus Junction Station twice (and utterly negates the point of that station if you really think about it).
The primary focus remains on getting trains in and out of Manhattan across the Hudson River, and by eliminating the possibility of a second Manhattan terminal, they have neglected Lower Manhattan. The focus on one-seat rides is far too pervasive, also. JMHO…
Alternative S calls for addtional tracks and platforms be built along the South side of (33rd?) street.
After thats done, I boarded the 10:20 MARC Penn Line train, lead by GP40D #63 and I rode in Mefersa coach #7706. The ride was good but the seats were TERRIBLY unconfortable and along the way, we found a body on the tracks.
Afterwards, we proceeded on to Penn Station, where I took this picture of my ride up there.
Then, I rode LRV #5047 down to Baltimore Street/Convention center. While waiting 30 splendid minutes for a 20 bus, I helped myself to this unusual photographic opportunity.
After my 20 finally arrived (NABI #0072), I rode her to Baltimore Travel Plaza where I wish to eat since I haven't eaten the entire day. I helped myself to possibly the only A&W restaurant on the east coast and ate while watching Peter Pan and Greyhound buses move back and forth before my eyes ;-)
Afterwards, I rode the 20 to Eastern ave (same bus, 0072). There, I got a picture of Eastern division.
I then took the route 23 with bus #9904 to Howard Street. A tourist comes up to me and asks me how to get to BWI airport, since the light rail suspension and the shuttle service is so complicated and she has a tough time understanding, I decided to come along with her and guide her to her destination. We boarded LRV #5047 (again), which we rode to Convention Centre station. Then we took shuttle Flxible #8727 to Patapsco where I showed her the appropriate LRV to board that will bring her to BWI and I wished her a good journey.
I boarded shuttle Flxible #8611 which I rode back to Camden Yards.
I then boarded LRV #5047 (AGAIN!) and rode that up to Baltimore Street. Then I took the 20 (NABI 99xx) and rode it one stop eastward to Charles St. There, I went underground and entered the Boopway. I took the first Owings Mill-bound boopway to Reisterstown Plaza and getting a nice view of the BoopWay facility (I have this feeling they store the Rehabbed MTA cars most visible to the subway line to intimidate transit fans) I also got a load of some 20 second frequency.
I boarded the next boopway and rode it one stop down to Rogers Ave, Where I got a better view of the MTA Facility.
And this spectacular pose.
Ready to take the next Boopway back into Downtown, I get a BIG surprise booping it's way into the station.
Yep! Thats right, a Rehabbed MTA Subway Car.
Ohh what a beauty and such an improvement. (good job, MTA!)
I rode her back to Lexington Market where I came up from under ground and rode the 23 (87xx) one street east to Howard St. After being attracted and tempted by the sight of a sexy Neoplan AN440LF, I couldn't help but ride one on the 20 (02xx) one stop west, where I got off and walked back east to Howard St. Then I boarded LRV #5047 (yet AGAIN!) and rode her down to Camden Yards, hoping to take the MARC 5:15 Camden line back to Union Station. After being disgusted by the sights of a consist consisting of all Mafersa cars, I hopped back on LRV #5024 and rode her up to Penn Station in hopes of finding a Kawasaki on the 5:25 Penn Line down to DC. My hopes came true, the 5:25 Penn Line to DC had 4 Kawasakis and 2 Mafersas, naturally, I rode in the Kawasaki ;-)
*Drools*
Well anyways, I rode that thing of Beauty down to Union Station, spotting 2 MARC HHP8s going northbound on the Penn Line (pulling a consist of 8 cars each!)
After Arriving at Union Station, I helped myself to the scent of Diesel Fumes and MARC layups.
Oooooo
Ahhhhh *mops up my drool* Alright, Enough waterworks.
From there, I took Red Line Breda #30xx to Silver Spring, Ride On route 5 Orion V #5708 to white flint, and then route 46 Orion V 5561 to my home stop. I got home at 8:15, that is my story ;-)
You can see all of these photos and MANY more that I haven't posted on this post at http://photos.transitgallery.com/DC-Transit , look in Album: Baltimore Excursion:10/17/03.
Enjoy!
I was down in Baltimore a couple of weeks ago, and had a hard time finding 1980's Flxibles, guess my timing was off.
I'm glad someone else noticed the rehabbed Metro cars. I had posted (post #579763) about this awhile back, but no one didn't respond. I was trying to find out if it was just a cosmetic makeover or is there some mechanical makeover involved as well.
All fare machines, Light Rail or Subway sell Day Passes.
A Day Pass is $3.50.
A Round Trip is $3.20
E... I... E... I... oooooh! That is the most beautiful craftsmanship on a rail car I've ever seen (and I've ridden Amtrak Custom Class before)
Something about that rehabbed MTA car just screams "M4"
Oh look kids! If you look to the left of the train, there's a dead guy on the tracks! Seriously, what posseses people to invade the trains' territory; that got one of the DuPonts killed, and THAT led to a certain problem here in Philly that I'm none too happy about.
Little known fact (info from one of my friends, former Amtrak and SEPTA conductor, and SEPTA RRD Passenger Services agent): one member of the DuPont family was struck by an R3 near Glen Mills. That led to the DuPonts suing, and the line was ordered shut down by the courts until the case was resolved... but the case wound up thrown out, and the line by then had so badly deteriorated that SEPTA just decided to forget about it entirely. My guess is that remains in their memory somewhere, and is the real reason they choose not to extend the R3 past Wawa should they re-open that part of the line.
BTW did you take advantage of the VRE crosshonor to save yourself a few bucks? LOL
And it made me so pissed that I didn't go to your site. Bummer.
Another tip that might make people happy is to put the link to your site before the photos themselves, so people don't have to wait for all the pictures to load before the can follow the link.
Again, thanks for the great shots,
Mark
Three things have led to the R-42 not being a great car at the moment:
1. Deferred maintainence policies
2. Poor qualitiy of some of the rebuilds
3. Rust of non-stainless steel parts
4. Old age
In the case of #1: The policy of deferred maintainence negatively affected all the rolling stock on in the subway system. Car that were built EXCEPTIONALLY well, such as the R-32, were better able to weather the storm.
#2: Cars overhauled and rebuilt by Morris-Knudsen have had better service records than the group rebuilt by the NYCTA in-house.
#3: The roof, the underframe, and the very bottom of the R-42 is not stainless steel, but rather carbon steel painted silver. These parts are subject to severe rust, a problem that also plagues the R-38 and R-40 classes. Additionally, the bonnet on the #1 end is fiberglass, and leaks have developed on the seams that separate the fiberglass, steel, and stainless steel sections, which has helped rust the steel components of the car frame, further weakening the cars. All of this helps to point out the superiority of the R-32, which has a completely stainless steel body.
# 4: This affects all cars. Some just hold up better than others.
R-38: 19,246
R-40: 32,102
R-42: 19,237
Mean Distance Between Failures, July 1977:
R-38: 16,020
R-40: 20,589
R-42: 17,556
SOURCE: A NEW DIRECTION IN TRANSIT, NYC Department of City Planning 1978
David
Too bad, they are one of my favorite class cars, even after the GOHs.
Well it is October 18th again. This year, for a switch, we are not going to
be discussing collisions between trains and motor vehicles. We will not
focus on the aftermath of how such collisions affect the families and train
crews involved. For a change, this year we will discuss collisions that did
not occur and the motorists that drive like Mr. Magoo.
For those of you not old enough to remember Mr. Magoo, here's a very brief
background summary of him. Mr. Magoo was a cartoon character dating back to
at least the early 1960's. He was noted for his extreme nearsightedness.
Magoo's personality and voice were characterized by the late Jim Backus.
Mr. Backus was star of film and television. Many of you may recall him from
the role he played as Thurston Howell III of Gilligan's Island.
Anyway, Mr. Magoo was about blind as a bat and drove around in what
resembled an old Model T Ford. He would drive on sidewalks, into buildings,
through barns and pig sties, on the wrong way on highways and also onto
railroad tracks. The introduction of each episode chronicled his poor
vision accompanied by a catchy little theme song and it closed with the
phrase;
"Oh Magoo, you've done it again."
Somehow through all of this, Magoo was never seriously injured and
obviously being this was a cartoon, didn't suffer a horrible death. You
might say Magoo always fell into a bucket of sh*t and came up smelling like
a rose.
Unfortunately, real life doesn't always parallel that of Mr. Magoo.
Now on with today's lesson.
For those not familiar with the significance of today's date, back in 1989
I was involved in a tragic and fatal collision with an automobile at a road
crossing. Three teenaged girls met their demise as a result of the actions
of the driver behind the wheel. I will not recount that story again now. If
all goes well and we ever find a publisher, that entire story will be in
the book.
A near miss is the term used to describe a near collision. Near miss is
truly a top ten ranked oxymoron. If we nearly missed him then I would think
it means we hit him. Wouldn't near hit, near collision or perhaps close
call be far more correct? Apparently not. So let's examine what the
industry had dubbed a near miss instead.
Some yahoo drives around the lowered gates in front of my approaching
train. We are bearing down on him at a very high rate of fuel consumption.
We miss colliding with him by mere inches, or feet, or perhaps even yards.
But nonetheless, we nearly had a collision. And it doesn't have to be at a
crossing with gates, it could be a crossing equipped with flashing lights
or even just cross bucks. If you fail to yield the right of way to an
approaching train and shoot across, you have put yourself at tremendous
risk and could get clobbered. You got really lucky this time and didn't,
but you nearly got hit. And they call this a near miss. Once again that
"They" family is at it yet again. We really have to figure out how to get
these people out of railroading. "They" can be worse and more annoying than
the railroad gods themselves.
Now some people are offended when I refer to those motorists who disregard
any type of warning device at a railroad crossing be it passive (cross
bucks) or active (flashing lights with or without bells, with or without
gates) as idiots, morons or yahoos. I have a few other names for them as
well too. I'm sorry, if you feel your life is really worth risking just in
order to reach the Jewel or Target two minutes earlier. If you are one of
these people than terms like moron, idiot and yahoo are true
representations of what you are. You don't even want to know what I call
people that ignore my approaching train and the warning devices when they
have passengers in the car with them, especially children. Suffice it to
say if printed here in our little forum it would have to appear like this:
#$%@#&@#$#%*(%)#@$*#&^@.
I will not apologize to anybody for calling them something really bad when
they play Russian roulette with their lives and even more so when they do
it with the lives of others. In addition to risking their lives and the
lives of innocent passengers in their motor vehicles, they are also placing
the lives of the crew of the train in peril as well. Yes, sometimes the
crews on the trains involved in a collision are also injured or worse in a
grade crossing collision. I am personally acquainted with railroaders and
have heard from and about others that have been injured in collisions at
crossings. I have also heard about railroaders killed in crossing
collisions.
Those that disregard the warning devices at railroad crossings are in a
sense, just like Mr. Magoo. They are blind to the dangers they have
willfully placed themselves into the path of. They clearly cannot see the
fact they are risking their lives.
Now we will do a study in some of these so-called near misses.
This past winter I was working train 281 from Markham to Gibson City, IL.
At Gilman, IL we diverge off the Chicago Sub and onto the Gilman Sub. The
wyes at Gilman for accomplishing the diverging move are both restricted to
10 MPH. So here we come starting into the north leg of the wye beginning
our diverging move between the two lines. This particular evening I had an
IC SD70 locomotive in the lead. This unit has the standard cab and control
stand.
It had snowed the day previous and the streets in Gilman were still snow
and ice covered, although it appeared they had been plowed. Snow and ice on
pavement make for a great combination, especially at night.
We are clip-clopping along through the wye at the prescribed 10 MPH. As our
train approached 2nd Street, the very south of the three crossings right in
town, I observed a GMC or Chevy pick up truck approaching from the east and
heading west. I could see the driver had no intention of stopping as he
started to swing to the left of center of the road. Without any effort to
slow at all, he rolled right around the lowered gates. As he did so, he
began to accelerate. Let's do a quick study in the laws of physics here.
Snow and ice on the road, a pick up truck accelerating on such pavement
while making a gradual weaving path, said pick up truck with virtually no
weight in the back to help hold the road. Can anybody calculate the
solution to this equation? I sure could and did so before all the addends
were even summed. You could say I saw this one coming.
The rear end of the truck decided it did not wish to follow the lead of the
front. It swung out and began to fishtail. With all the momentum involved
on that slippery pavement which was producing a minimum amount of
resistance, the rear end of the truck quickly caught up to the front of the
truck and passed it. Yes friends and neighbors, he did a very well
orchestrated 180° turn directly in front of my approaching train. I don't
believe he could have done so well on purpose.
There is only one real problem when one performs a 180 with a motor
vehicle, particularly on snowy, icy pavement; you tend to lose complete
control and pretty much have no input on where you will come to a stop.
This night would be no exception. The momentum he had going took the truck
above and beyond 180 reaching about 190 or so. The truck spun around and
wound up stopping just short of hitting a telephone pole right at the
crossing. Had he struck the pole, ye would have done so by backing into it.
When the truck stopped the front end of it was out in the foul of the track
I was on. This means the front of his truck was in a position to be struck
by my train.
Undaunted, this guy pulls the truck out completely in front of me and then
he turns it around and heads west on 2nd Street. He was not going to wait
for my train; he was getting across no matter what. As he was making his
mid-course correction, I noticed there were two other people in the truck
with him and one of them appeared to be youngster.
Now while all this in going on, I am still rolling towards him. I was
sounding the whistle constantly with the bell also ringing the entire time.
The ditch lights and headlights were also illuminated. I guess Magoo here
was just completely blind to the fact that I was about to plow right into
him. I was sitting up straight and actually on the edge of seat while very
closely and carefully observing the activity taking place in front me and
my approaching train. While I did have my hand on the automatic brake valve
handle, I made no attempt to put the train into emergency. My Conductor was
getting a little panicky though.
The truck cleared out of the way and we rolled right on through. I couldn't
get the license plate number from the truck as it was covered with snow.
Had I been able to read it, I would have reported it to the CN Police and
they would have tracked down his address and sent the owner a letter
reminding him of safety at railroad crossings. His name would also be
entered into a data bank. Should there ever be an episode involving this
guy with a train, there would be a history of unsafe driving established
showing a previous disregard for safety at railroad crossings.
Now this entire event probably didn't take more than five or six seconds
from the moment he began to fishtail until he finally cleared from my path.
I missed him by at least two or three seconds. I wonder if this moron went
bragging about this episode to his friends.
Once the guy was clear my Conductor asked me why I didn't put the train
into emergency. I told him because I would never have come close to
stopping in time. He seemed shocked and wondered how I knew I wouldn't get
stopped. I explained the rapid calculation in time and distance I was doing
in my head during the entire time this event was taking place in front of
us and knew that putting the train "into the hole" would be pointless. If
he got stuck when he almost hit that pole after doing his 180 or couldn't
clear up quickly enough, we were going to him whether I put the train into
emergency or not.
I had no resources available to me that would get my train stopped short of
the crossing, even at 10 MPH. Being that we had over 70 loads of
automobiles that night, the entire train would not have even been in
emergency at the point of impact, even if I hit the button on my head end
device to dump the air on the tail as well. He seemed amazed that I knew
this and could calculate such a fact so quickly. His comment then was that
he could never have been an Engineer as he didn't think he had the nerve
for it.
He complimented me on the fact that I held my cool. He seemed amazed that I
did not do something rash. Never once did I panic or anything while this
scene was playing out before us. Although I must admit, I did utter a few
very well chosen and unprintable words in a little commentary about this
driver as this was all transpiring. I believe I brought up his education
and some family heritage. I'm reasonably certain I also compared him to
several body parts as well.
Over the years I have observed people routinely driving around the lowered
gates at a crossing in front of my approaching train. I am guessing that
like old Magoo, these folks really just can't see, that is cannot see the
absolute peril they are putting themselves and any passengers they are
transporting with them.
There are the folks that just don't think crossings with only flashing
lights or cross bucks apply to them. These folks blast right across in
front of us, often without even slowing to see if there is an approaching
train yet alone if it is even close. I guess they figure bad things will
not happen to them. Some of the people never even look. They are so focused
on where they want to be that they pay absolutely no attention to me. And
the strange part of paying attention is this; you are actually not charged
anything for doing so.
Routinely I observed people that will look, but only look one way. I guess
they figure that railroads are like some streets, one way. They pull up to
the crossing slowing down or even stopping, but only look one way before
proceeding. Well, I guess they're half safe, but being half safe can still
leave you completely dead.
One gorgeous early autumn Saturday afternoon while I was still on the
Wisconsin Central we were rolling westward through Burlington, WI. We were
en route to Fond du Lac and home. There was a no whistle ordinance in
effect in Burlington. We were prohibited from sounding the whistle except
in an emergency. I will discuss such ordinances in a bit. Anyway, here we
are rolling through town at the prescribed 20 MPH with just the bell
ringing. As we approach one crossing, some teenaged looking boy out
cruising with some girl decided they could not wait and drove around the
gates in front of our train. As they rolled in front of us, the driver
gives us the familiar "we're number one" sign.
Now being that I consider a situation like this to be an emergency, I sound
the whistle. It is obvious that this Magoo is cannot see the danger they
have placed themselves into, so I must warn them. The whistle is my last
line of defense as it were, so I blast away on it.
"Danger Will Robinson, danger!"
Conductor Brian Kruger was able to obtain a license plate number and filled
out a "near miss report." Whenever we turned in one of these reports on the
WC, their Risk Management folks would run the license plate on the car to
get the address. A letter would be sent to the name of the person on the
registration informing them that this vehicle registered to them had been
observed disregarding the warning devices at a railroad crossing at the
particular location we reported along with the date and time of the
occurrence. Whenever the Risk Management folks sent out a letter to the
registered owner, the crew of the train involved also got a copy of the
letter as well.
We were good and reported many folks. For a time, I kept a file of them and
had several dozen of these letters in there. I'm only sorry that I didn't
keep them. They would have been a good visual aid.
Most railroads have such forms for reporting motorists. Some roads also
have a toll free number for employees to call and turn in such reports. We
used to have forms in the size of cards on the IC before and then shortly
after CN took over. However, I have not seen such a card in over two years.
I believe I have only been on one CN locomotive that had a decal posted in
the cab with a phone number to call to report a near miss. Not that it
would do much good though as unlike most other railroads, we have no chart
or list of all the road crossings on the districts over which we operate.
Most of the crossings with automatic warning devices have a milepost number
on the signal cabin. The crossings with passive devices (cross bucks only)
have nothing to indicate the exact location. So turning in a form that says
something like, "The road crossing about half a mile south of milepost such
and such" would not be too beneficial.
Coming west on the WC one Sunday afternoon en route back to Fond du Lac I
had a motorist drive around lowered crossing gates in front of my train. He
then made a left turn and headed north onto the parallel US Rt. 41. As we
were about even with each other, I gave him a shot of whistle. When he
looked over towards me, I gave him that one finger salute. He then
accelerated rapidly and was out of our range of vision rather quickly.
When we got in I found out the guy's urgency in getting way from us. He
went to a phone and called the railroad to turn me in for flipping him off.
Guess he figured he was going to get me fired or something. The
Superintendent was waiting for me when I walked into the yard office and
was somewhat upset. He told of some motorist calling and reporting my
actions. I laughed and asked if this guy gave a name and phone number. He
told me the guy did as the Super would call him back to make amends or have
me apologize or something.
I asked the Super if this guy happened to mention the fact that just prior
to my public display he had driven around lowered crossing gates directly
into the path of my approaching train. He told me such an event was not
mentioned. I explained to him that was why I flipped the guy off, not
because I'm just a mean and nasty person. The tone of the conversation
suddenly changed and I was no longer in any kind of trouble. The Super said
he would call the guy and inform him that he had just given himself up for
violating the law and would receive a letter in the mail reminding him to
be safe at crossings.
About three and a half years ago, I observed a fifth wheel equipped pick up
truck pulling a travel trailer. This guy pulled his truck and trailer
directly onto the crossing in front of my rapidly approaching train. I was
traveling at 60 MPH with a 125 car train. The guy looks at me approaching
train and then stops dead right on the tracks, right in front of my train.
The travel trailer was sitting directly in front of me and the distance
between me and him was very rapidly disappearing. My Conductor is starting
to scream at me to put the train into emergency. I did not follow his
suggestion.
Why? There was no way in hell I was going to get stopped before hitting
that trailer. I just laid on the whistle and now had the other hand on the
automatic brake valve. At the last possible moment, the guy takes off
clearing the route. I don't believe we missed him by more than a couple of
hundred feet. Traveling at over eighty feet per second, that was not much
room.
I don't know if the guy was just playing chicken or what, but if he was, I
was going to win. I cannot stop and am not going to dump the air on the
train for every idiot that thinks I will. Now had I dumped the air in this
situation, it would have been for naught. I would've come to a stop with
most of the train well past the crossing. There would be the potential for
something bad to happen within my train, such as a break in two. We
would've have taken a big delay for no reason. And I would've had the
crossing blocked the entire time.
We get people playing chicken with the trains quite often. Sometimes in
higher crime neighborhoods this game is just so they can get the train
stopped. Once we are stopped and in emergency, they can then attack the
train. Oh ya, the days of train robberies are not dead, they have just
evolved with the times. Instead of robbing the passengers and getting the
strongbox with the payroll or gold in it, they break into the cars,
trailers or containers.
Probably the single most terrifying near miss event that occurred in my
career occurred when I was student Engineer with the MoPac. While operating
over Chicago& Western Indiana trackage in Chicago's Roseland community, a
school bus with kids on board drove around the gates in front of my
approaching train. We narrowly missed the bus. However, it was close enough
that I was able to get the name of the bus company and the bus number as
well as the license plate on the back. While I could not hear the kids
screaming on that bus, I could clearly see the large white eyes and the see
their mouths open as if they were yelling and screaming.
This encounter was so close that I thought I was going to hit that bus. I
did put the train into emergency for this one. I don't believe I missed
that bus by more than a few feet. The driver just drove away like it was no
bit deal. I immediately reported this incident to the C&WI Dispatcher. From
what I learned later, several motorists that witnessed this event reported
it to the Chicago police.
When we got back in that evening, my Engineer and I had instructions to
report to the Trainmaster before we tied up. They quizzed us on exactly
what happened at that crossing and wanted very clear and concise details.
After answering all the questions we were then instructed to write up a
report on what happened with regards to the school bus incident. We both
did and then tied up and went home
The following day I was called into the Assistant Superintendent's office.
He explained that the bus company had notified the railroad of the driver
involved in this incident being dismissed from his job.
Did my putting the train into emergency prevent a collision? After all
these years, I still really want to think so. But in actuality, it probably
didn't. Knowing what I have learned over the years, it probably made
little, if any difference. I did not have a great deal of time between the
moment the bus pulled into my path and the point where we just missed
striking it. The entire train was not even in emergency at that moment. In
fact, the engines were already over the crossing and well past what could
have been the point of impact when the voice of Conductor Walter Hall came
over the radio asking, "Did you do that?"
Back in the days of cabooses on trains whenever the train went into
emergency, somebody on the tail end would often get onto the radio asking
if you were the one that put the train into emergency. Walter's question
was pretty much the pat response from the tail end whenever the air went
into "the hole" while you were moving.
I actually had nightmares from that episode for several nights after the
event took place. In these nightmares we indeed creamed that bus and it was
a horrible and tragic event. This entire event made quite the impression on
me and I have never forgotten it. I would never wish such an event on my
worst enemy.
I had mentioned no whistle ordinances a bit earlier. From a personal
standpoint, I hate them. While I am not crazy about having to hear that
whistle blow some one hundred twelve times between Markham and Champaign
(for a total of 448 actually blows of that whistle, it is a line of
defense. I sound that whistle at every crossing as if it were I-80. Most of
the homes near or next to the tracks were built long after the railroad
appeared. I don't really care if the neighbors don't like the noise.
Perhaps they should have considered the fact there is a railroad nearby
before they bought.
One of the first questions asked of the Engineer after a train/motor
vehicle collision is if they were blowing the whistle. Even in a no whistle
zone that question gets asked. As I have mentioned, that whistle is the
last line of defense. If you are like old Magoo and cannot see the signals
operating, you know those flashing lights, are unable to restrain yourself
from driving around those lowered gate cross arms because you feel they do
not really mean there might be a train approaching, perhaps the nearly 100
decibels of whistle sounding might bring you to a reality check. Yes, I
have witnessed motorists that were in the process of disregarding the
warning devices actually stop when I sounded that whistle.
The laws regarding whistle use in most communities usually state something
to the effect of "Except in case of extreme emergency, the whistle shall
not be sounded." Now none of these laws defines exactly what an extreme
emergency actually might be. This makes it a judgment call on my part. I
have to decide in a split second what is or isn't an extreme emergency.
I have developed my own personal criteria and formula for determining a
potential extreme emergency. The formula works like this; if you disregard
the warning devices (normally gates in a no whistle zone) when I am a
quarter mile (the normal location where you begin to sound the whistle) or
less from the crossing and my train is moving with no intention of stopping
before reaching such crossing, this has developed into an extreme
emergency. You have done a Magoo and thus risked the lives of yourself, any
passengers that might be in your car with you and the crew on my train.
Therefore, I will sound the whistle. I am of the mind set that you are
totally unaware of and oblivious to the approach of my train. A collision
might be imminent. I must take every action within my powers to make you
aware of the potential for serious injury or death that you are exposing
yourself to. You obviously have no clue as to the danger you are placing
all parties involved into, therefore, you need to be warned. And that
whistle is the only method I have to warn you. So I will and do, blast away.
I had an interesting debate on a discussion list with somebody that was
annoyed by the whistles sounded at the crossings in his community. He lives
near a very busy rail line that routinely sees in excess of 80 train moves
per day. He complained that the railroad should be doing more. What is it
the railroad should be doing? He thought they should install the quadrant
style gates at every crossing to totally eliminate the chance of motorists
disregarding their intention and driving around them. Why should the
railroads pay for them?
One fact that most of the citizenry of this country fails to realize is
this; gates at a crossing are not an improvement to the railroad. I repeat
they are not an improvement to the railroad. They are an improvement to the
highway in exactly the same manner as a traffic light at an intersection is
an improvement to the highway. I may still proceed at my normal track speed
at a crossing whether there are gates or just cross bucks. Gates do not
allow me to operate at a higher speed limit just as the lack of them does
not require me to operate al lower rate of speed.
And even with the quadrant style of gates at the crossing, they still do
not prevent collisions from occurring. More than half of all train/motor
vehicle collisions occur at crossings equipped with gates.
The money used for the installation of gates at a crossing comes from state
and Federal funds. The government pays for the project and in most cases;
the railroads provide the manpower for the installation. Now another fact
that most folks are not aware of; the railroads assume all costs of repairs
and maintenance to such installations. So if some bean head plows into the
gate breaking it off, the railroad is required to absorb all costs involved
to make repairs. That is of course, unless somebody can catch the license
plate number of the offending vehicle.
I have caught the license plate number of more than one motorist that
knocked off a gate at a crossing. The railroad will go after said motorist
in the attempt to recover the cost of all the damages, including the money
paid out to the Signal Maintainer that is required to make the repairs.
Another issue that develops from damaged gates or signals at a crossing;
stopping a train to protect that crossing. When an automatic crossing
warning device is reported to have been damaged or not properly
functioning, we are notified and must stop and protect that crossing. This
requires us to stop the train short of said crossing and have a member of
the crew get off and head to the crossing. This employee must place lighted
fusees on the crossing and flag all motor vehicular and pedestrian traffic
to a stop. Only then may I proceed onto the crossing. Once the crossing is
fully occupied and the crew member is back on board, I may resume normal
speed. But getting the train back up to speed takes time which results in
the crossing being blocked even longer.
In most cases, the communities have built themselves up around the
railroads. In this day and age many new developments are planned and
constructed immediately adjacent to or in very close proximity of a rail
line. I know of several cases where the developers involved petitioned to
get a crossing added to allow the residents of the new developments an
alternate method of entering and exiting the development. The railroads
tend to fight off such plans, often very successfully.
Now should there be commuter passenger service operating on the rail line
near the new development, that fact is touted to prospective homeowners. So
these folks move out to the so-called "country" to get away from urban
sprawl, and place themselves either right next to or within close proximity
of the busy rail line. The trains come through at all hours whistling the
crossings and suddenly, we are the enemy. Never mind these folks chose to
live where they do.
So the outcry begins and efforts are undertaken to stop all that noise.
They cry to the town hall, councilmen and women and anybody else who will
listen. They organize petition drives to stop the whistling. Oddly enough
though, many that are clamoring about the noise somehow fail to notice the
racket that comes from their own kids' car stereos cranked up at full
volume with the mega-hyper bass kicked in. Windows shake for blocks around
yet for some strange reason, being that these are their own kids, they fail
to recognize this as a problem.
Instead of the communities involved whining at the railroads, why don't
they focus their efforts at the developers? Why not require the developers
to pay for improved warning devices at the crossings BEFORE the first house
is allowed to be occupied? The developers are reaping humongous profits for
creating and building these developments, why not make them pay for the
cost of the improvements at any railroad crossings in that community? And
why don't community leaders take a stand and require as much? Why? It's
simple; money. The community leaders see an increased tax base. They
visualize the businesses of their communities prospering because of an
increased market base. They envision growth. They see more voters. They
don't want to risk any interference to this growth and development by
standing up for what is right and making the developers pay for all
associated improvements related to the new developments. Instead, they
bitch and moan at the railroads for doing what is required, protecting the
public from themselves. Many of whom are the likes of Mr. Magoo.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2003 by JD Santucci
IIRC: did not the Magoo series be yanked from the airways since it did a disservice to blind or disabled persons?
Elias
Adam
John J Blair, I'll stop by at the TM before we all get on the train.
Furthermore, heading uptown from 42nd, why are transfers sometimes only available for the #1 train, but other times available for the #1 and #9, when they're both in service. And why no transfer available to the #3?
Sheesh!
My guess is that at the point on your trip, the 3 is still following the 2's route. When the 2 gets to 135th, the routes diverge and the 2 may announce transfer for the 3 there.
Master towers will become the norm and fewer people will man them as the new CC will do the major decision making.
A new title of ATO (Automated Tower Operator) has been proposed. Thies title would control even part time/satellite towers remotely presumably from the currnt master tower locations.
Huh? I think you got something messed up.
You are ight though. They're planning to combine the titles of T/D, A/D and TW/O. I forgot what its called, but its not "Automated" Tower Operator.
Please remember that the consolidation is in stages anyway so there will likely be a few layers of change.
"The IND was designed for 75mph speeds! E and F trains are supposed to do 50-60 down Queens Boulevard! The 4 and 5 are supposed to do 50-65 on its express route and the the A and D are supposed to do the same!"
The SAS of the 1970s, and the original 63rd Street Linewhich was not implemented, was designed for 70+ mph speeds, and the R44 and R46 cars were ordered in conjunction with that. This was supposed to be an improvement over existing IND conditions. To my knowledge, the TA made no such promises for the rest of the IND.
Accidents in the yard, unless they are utterly spectacular (i.e. the Wakefield Yard Lead Inferno) get absolutely no press.
wayne
Time for a little lesson in tort law.
If I injure you (and you don't work for me) and it's shown I knew about the dangers of what I was doing, I can be charged with gross negligence and have to pay punitive as well as compensatory damages. These could be in the billions of dollars in one big accident.
If I injure you but I can prove I did everything possible to prevent such an accident, at worst I will pay compensatory damages.
If I injure you and you work for me, the workmen's compensation rules apply. Potential liability is far lower.
Timers are the MTA's way of demonstrating they have done everything possible to prevent another Union Square or WB accident.
Don't blame the MTA; blame NY State tort law if you wish.
When a particular line is re-signaled, if it's done correctly, the timers ought to go away. We'll see by 2005 whether they can get rid of timers (or their CBTC equivalents) on the L.
Vicariously impatient, that is.
But they haven't been, and so the MTA acts accordingly.
CG
There was a signals supervisor that used to post here. Maybe they would be interested in this.
I was referring to the express track, BTW...
I would use the word lengthen !
One of their goals SHOULD be to come up with ways to push more folks thru the system ... so if an area has a speed problem, what is the cause & what can be done to maintain speed thru that area ? There are many areas where physically you have no options, but that isn't the case everywhere that they have slowed down the trains with timers.
The A between Jay and High is another place people speed.
To me yes but in front of a home signal a one shot is likely a safer choice.
I think it's there to ensure that a train operator does not wrap it around after he clears the last timer ENTERING the station and whip part of the train around the s-curve. Poorly placed timer IMHO.
BTW. When I said you should know how long your train is, I wasn't just referring to counting the cars in your consisit. I meant that if you have 600ft. of train and you are going across a switch, do not wrap it around until your train is COMPLETELY ACROSS THE SWITCH so you don't whip the rest of the train. If there's no resume marker, estimate your distance traveled. You can do that using the signal #s. It's not that difficult.
But school car didn't end with the two cars forward, two cars back, you're done ... and they were DESPERATE to make it work back then. So much so, the RCI's would show you "out of title" stuff so you could solve problems you weren't supposed to when you were on the road. And when I came out, it wasn't too far after the Roosevelt Avenue wreck, so the "safety safety safety" thing had already started and the instructors were bitching about "we have to do this stuff" ... I can only imagine how much there is of it today.
Yep, you're the one who taught me that little trick. Dropping the reverser on arnines was one I picked up on my own for that satisfying two-fisted lunch. Heh. What the hey, most of the bulkhead bulbs were dead anyway, and they'd already unplugged the side signs. Who was gonna know? :)
So MANY things for the kids to play with, and last thing you wanted to do was melt a set of wheels because somebody tightened one up in addition to the three or more that were SUPPOSED to be set. And of course the four-quadrant cap slap lest someone get a nasty surprise when the drum switch was turned. Real work it was, it was ...
It is also true that juries like to take money from large bureaucracies, regardless of logic, and give it to fools who do not deserve it.
This A-S-R system uses sets of three signs. Approach Speed Limit (a yellow square), Speed Limit (yellow diamond with an S) and Resume Speed (Green square with an R)
What happens if the T/O runs the signal while it's still yellow?
Here's my suggestion for a speed depend signal system:
light signals can be home, distance or a combination of it.
distance signals always in breaking distance if front of main signal
red - stop
yellow - next main signal shows stop (bypassing with full speed except you've seen red before on that signal)
green - next main signal doesn't show red
flashing yellow - speed restriction due diverting switch on next main
flashing green - main signal, with speed restriction
little white: distance signal repeater or distance signal shorter
to main signal than normal breaking distance
example for the wihte:
http://sh1.org/fotos/jpeg/sk2k.jpg
The speed of the restriction is the one of the most common diverting
speed of the switches, other switch speeds are shown:
yellow number - speed restriction of posted number (*5 or *10) on next main
white number - speed restriction due switches till speed plate
example see Zs3 and Zs3v:
http://sh1.org/eisenbahn/snzs.htm
signals are marked with plates:
red - main signal of interlockings bypassing at red only with tower
yellow - distance signal
green - main signal with no switch behind bypassing at red when tower
can't reach allow, riding on sight till next main signal
expamle for red and yellow plate:
http://sh1.org/fotos/jpeg/sk1sk0.jpg
speed plates:
showing static speeds (curves/general speed limit of the track)
yellow triangle with black number: speed restriction in breaking distance
white square with black number : start of the restriction
if a higher speed is posted than before allowed, the train haves to pass
the signal complete before increasing speed.
Higher speed plates doesn't have distance signals.
number shows the allowed speed (maybe number*5 or *109
example see Lf6/Lf7:
http://sh1.org/eisenbahn/snlf1.htm
If required:
white letter for the direction that the train goes at interlockings
(X for express track and L for local or N for Norwood branch and I for
Inwood branch)
yellow letter as distance signal if necessary
example see Zs2/Zs2v:
http://sh1.org/eisenbahn/snzs.htm
A magnetical based train stop system protects all
red signals: stops always the train
Pressing a button (only allow by order of the tower) avoids the stop
yellow coloured signals (except letter): T/O haves to quit after passing the signal with a button, that he haves seen the signal.
If no pushed button within 2.5 sec the train stops automatic
If a signal fails: flashing red gives the T/O the order to bypass the signal
The major idea of my signal system is an extension of this:
signal system:
http://sh1.org/eisenbahn/shsk.htm
train stop:
http://sh1.org/eisenbahn/rindusi.htm
I think not. The system was designed for trains that could stop within 250 feet at anytime. The first trainset that violated this was the R10, which took 275 feet. The Williamsburg Bridge accident occurred because a train travelling uphill at only 34 mph could not stop within 288 feet.
Stopping within 250 feet from 50 mph would require a emergency braking rate of 7.4 mph/sec. The only equipment that had a high enough emergency braking rate were the Bluebirds with their emergency track brakes. The current equipment has an emergency braking rate of 3.0 mph/sec, which implies a stopping distance of 613 feet.
There's no reason why all postwar equipment could not have had track brakes. The TA blew it again with the puchase of the R142/143/160. Track brakes cost a lot less than the regenerative brakes that were specified on these "high-tech" trains. Also, unlike the TA's regenerative brakes, track brakes work.
This is an electro-magnet that can be energized to press the bar up against the tracks. The electricity comes from battery power, so the brakes can be effective in the event of power failure.
Unlike brakes that act on the wheels, track brakes are not limited by wheel slippage on the tracks, so 7-8 mph/sec emergency braking can be achieved. (All brakes that try to stop the wheel's rotation are limited to around 4-4.5 mph/sec). Of course the application can cause damage to both the brakes and the tracks. However, they are emergency brakes that are designed to avoid a greater catastrophe.
Your point is well-taken. However, as you note, track brakes can cause extensive damage to rails. I don't know how often on a typical day (and this may vary by season outside outdoors) a BIE occurs on the subway. "Tripping" causes BIE. Should "tripping" automatically engage the track brake too?
If the number of such events is high, and if the track brake is used routinely in BIE situations, the result could be a very large backlog of running rail replacement orders, overtaxed track repair crews, and disrupted service. Operational cost would increase to no useful purpose.
Alternatively, the MTA could specify that track brakes be used only to prevent a truly catastrophic emergency. But that requires that the crew be able to make that distinction reliably in every BIE situation.
Better than a collision, but certainly not something you want happeneing in every BIE.
Maybe the answer would be a track brake lever and instructions to the T/O to use this if you think you'll die or be seriously injured otherwise. Becauase the inquiry you'll go through afterwards will only be somewhat less miserable.
Query: How many likely BIE situations are there in the "gray" zone, where the T/O could guess wrongly about the need for the track brake?
I've been in a Type 8 with its three braking systems fully deployed. It's not really a big deal, you just have to hang on. If it comes unexpectedly, I guess it's a problem. 7-8mph/sec is like what most city buses could achieve in an emergency.
AEM7
1. What if you can't hang on?
2. What if 1 person out of 1000 has a significant injury.
Consider the US/NY State tort system.
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury. NYCT knew that one out of 1000 passengers would suffer significant injury from an emergency stop using track brakes. They also knew that over 95% of emergency stops are unjustified by any actual danger. Yet they continued to use those brakes. I ask for punitive damages in the amount of $10,000,000 for my client's broken arm because NYCT recklessly ignored the possibility of injury."
As for the legal system, I'd think that not equipping trains with track brakes, proven for nearly 70 years - etc., would get a much larger award in case of a collision. It's even more important for NYCT because of its poor emergency brakes. Consider that for signals outside stations: 69% of the trippers on the Culver Line; 31% of the trippers on the Sea Beach Line and 32% of the trippers on the West End Line offered NO protection with the reduced braking capacity of the newer cars. The only thing that poor emergency brakes provide at these signals is an idication that the T/O passes a red signal. They will not stop the train in time to avoid a collision. These lines are the rule not the exception.
I would consider not posting schedules on station platforms, as required by law, to be a far easier key to litigious success. The following happened to me within the last two weeks. I entered the 2nd Ave Station for Queens. There was a waiting V-train on the Brooklyn-bound side. I entered that platform and positioned myself to see whether that train or an arriving F-train would leave first. An F train started to enter. I ran up and across and down to catch the Queens-bound F. I tripped over the closing door and fell into the car. Had schedules been properly displayed such actions would not have been necessary to catch the next train. However, the TA prefers to believe that displaying schedules is not safety related.
As to your argument about schedules, I find it amusing. Let's just say it's fine on Subtalk.
Please explain. The PCC I was on continued its trip to Riverside and returned to Park St. The following car used the same track without incident. Application of track brakes does not mean that either the car or the rail has to be taken out service.
You relate one incident. You advocate the use of track brakes while not presenting the % of time that rail damage occurs, damage you have acknowledged as a consequence in previous posts.
Anecdotes aren't worth the electrons used to transmit them.
Much as I dislike the NY State tort system, I think that MTA lawyers are better judges of how juries react to the often outrageous suggestions of plaintiffs' lawyers, having observed them first hand on many occasions, than you are.
You're assuming that the MTA's lawyers have knowledge of track brake's existence and potential (good and bad).
It's fairly safe to assume that they know more about it than you do.
Yes I am. I have worked for companies of various sizes where part of my job has been to keep the lawyers technically informed. It is standard corporate practice that lawyers should have a reasonable understanding of any technology that might affect their job. I can't vouch for the MTA having a similar practice but it is a reasonable assumption.
I can't think of anybody who would. :-)
There's an old saying, Stephen: Before you ask someone to take a bath, be sure you've clweaned up your own act (hint: you stink! :0))
I've been watching this discussion of track brakes. One angle
you haven't considered is the nature of the NYCT rolling stock.
It is heavy with outboard-bearing trucks.
How many rapid transit systems use or used track brakes? The only
ones I can think of were all PCC-based rapid transit cars.
Lightweight and inboard bearing.
A typical NYC subway car weighs about twice as much than say
a Chicago 6000 series PCC-style RT car. The track brakes would
only be half as effective, assuming the same amount of normal
force between the track brake shoe and the rail.
It would also be a real pain to mount track brakes on an
outboard bearing MCB truck such as NYCT uses on everything other
than the latest new tech cars. The volume above the rails and
between the journal boxes, which is pretty much wide-open on
an inboard bearing PCC truck, is occupied by the equalizer
bar assembly.
The LIRR's cars could have track brakes installed, since they use inboard bearings, but I cringe at the thought of what the tracks would be subjected to if fully loaded 85' commuter MUs were going BIE on a regular basis.
They've been used on the RER and RATP equipment since the early 1980's, starting with the MI79 and MI2N, as well as mainline SNCF equipment.
This link discusses the use of track brakes on European equipment. One of the truck pictures appears to have ourboard bearings. There's also a sentence about wear due to track brakes and another discussing their benefit in cleaning the rails an providing better adhesion for wheel brakes.
As near as I can tell the truck weights on the RER and RATP equipment are approximately equal to those used by NYCT (17,380 lbs per truck).
A typical NYC subway car weighs about twice as much than say a Chicago 6000 series PCC-style RT car.
Most of that weight differential is in the truck. A comparison of body weights, especially if corrected for floor area, is far less dramatic 31.2 vs 25.4 tons.
That does raise the question of what the TA is getting for the extra weight besides increased power costs and track wear. :-) My mechanical engineering friends have been complaining to me about NYCT truck design for more than 40 years.
It would also be a real pain to mount track brakes on an outboard bearing MCB truck such as NYCT uses on everything other than the latest new tech cars.
As I said earlier, the TA blew an opportunity with the R142/143/160 series. I wasn't discussing a retrofit.
There was an attempt to develop and use a lightweight truck. This truck was designed and built by Rockwell International for the R46 and was fatally flawed.
Weight per floor area isn't the important factor, but rather weight
per active track brake. The CTA 6000 cars are shorter and lighter
so there are more track brakes working per pound. Not an
extremely dramatic difference, but don't expect to achieve
a 9.0 rate on an R-46 with the aid of track brakes.
Here's a translation, courtesy of www.freetranslation.com.
N.B. The word "skate", patin in French, means brake pad; the "running Foucault brake" is an eddy current brake; "essieu" means wiper, wiping,etc; "electromagnetic brakes" are track brakes.
Dissipate the energy: the different means of braking
If the order organs have well evolved since the invention of George Westinghouse, notably for urban equipment with the arrival some forces electronics and data processing, the means implemented to dissipate the energy cinétique of a train and to slow down it or to stop it did tremendous progresses since the end of the years 60.
In fact, while the order of the brake evolved all gently (the freinistes always are prudent...people) but surely all to alongside the 20th century, the technology of the brake organs in themselves did not practically evolve of 1900 in the middle of the years 60: the brake to soles (says again brake to sabots) some melted règnait in undisputed master, thanks tothanks to two important qualities: a very good insensitivity to the humidity of the friction coefficient and a purchase strong modest cost.
Nevertheless, the years 60 brands the beginning of the race to speed, while the vehicles grow heavy a little while integrating more and more comfort elements (notably air-conditioning). The soles some melted, with their friction coefficient very weak, necessitated the implement effort of inaccessible applications with the sizes of brake cylinders and the used amplifications. Besides, the important energies that it then was going to be necessary to dissipate (+50% to pass of 160 km/h to 200 km/h) rendered impossible it alone appeal of the wheels, of which the metallic characteristics would have been impaired gravement (with the consequences that one imagines!).
It has therefore been necessary to introduce again braking techniques. The innovation more important was the application to the rail one brake to discs. Equally developed in this period the electromagnetic brake (the applied skates on the rails), as well as the brake electrodynamics (usage of the traction motors in generators to generate a withholding effort). We will see how these different techniques were born, and how they evolved until today.
The brake to soles some melted
We saw that the brake to soles was, all naturally, the first brake type to impose in the history of the rail braking: it was in fact evident to slow down the train while coming all simply to slow down the rotation movement of the wheel.
The origin of the iron way dates back to the industrial revolution in Europe. To this era, the metallic material replaces very quickly drinks it as friction element, and the bottom, easy to make (and especially to mold to the desired form) imposes very quickly as the friction material ideal. An of its big advantages lies in the insensitivity of his friction coefficient under the effect of humidity: this essential characteristic in rail braking, for organs submitted in permanence to the water projections, of snow, etc.. We will see besides in the continuation that this characteristic a long time was a brake...(!) to the implement composite materials.
Nevertheless, the sole some melted presents four major inconveniences:
* she wears herself quickly,
* his friction coefficient is very weak (around 0,1 in average, this that means that the braking effort actually obtained to slow down the train is 10 inferior times to the one developed by the brake...cylinder),
* his friction coefficient is not constant according to the application effort: it subsides when the effort grows, attaining even a limit beyond which the withholding effort to the jante does not increase anymore when the application effort increases...
* his friction coefficient is not constant according to initial speed of the braking, but also instantaneous speed.
This last characteristic is enough bothering, for she translates herself by a very strong one climbed back up of this friction coefficient to the neighborhood of the stop: the coefficient can thus treble between 50 km/h and 0! It some results an important jerk to the moment of the stop, that is prejudicial to the comfort of the travelers and to the integrity of the merchandises, and necessitates tact from the driver. Those that frequently borrowed the Z5100 parisian suburbs remember necessarily of this désagrément... For certain equipped equipment of brakes to high power of the end of the years 60, it has even been necessary to install a device allowing generating two braking efforts according to speed (superior or inferior to 50 km/h) of manner to exploit to the better the available adherence to high speedto the approach the stop.
Besides, the sole some melted is very noisy on two aspects:
* during the braking, she produces unpleasant crissements, notably with respect to the environment.
* She roughened to count it rumble of the wheels, there creating microphones facets that translate themselves by a rumble noise out braking phase very clearly increased in comparison with a wheel braked by a sole in composite material, or a non braked wheel. Those that frequented the train station TGV of the Creusot before renovation of the row tgv-pse remember surely that it was easy to distinguish the eyes closed the passage to big speed of a rows non renovated PSE of with a rows TGV Duplex or Network!
This why the sole some melted was practically exile of the vehicles motors (locomotives, self-propelled, self-propelled) and travelers, while she remains very widely used on the cars (for cost reasons, essentially). But it is necessary to note that this abandonment is recent, since the tgv-pse used soles some melted until the end years 90, while the cars Coral and many self-propelled ones did not abandon them that to the mileu of the years 90...
Note to finish that some melted special were elaborated, by phosphorus introduction in quantity more or less important (1 to 3%). The most current one the is melted P10 (1% of phosphorus). The in demand goal was to reduce the wear (notably on the equipment of suburbs, to frequent stops), this that was verified. On the other hand, the phosphorus introduction increased the brittleness of these soles to the shocks, and certain constructive measures (reinforcement armature) must have been taken: the cost is found itself nevertheless feels.
The brake to soles in composite material (said soles "organic")
First essays were realized in the years 40, to the USA notably, from used materials in the automobile. But if the friction coefficient to dry showed itself satisfactory, on the other hand the wear remained very important because of the natural rugosité of the count rumble of the wheels, this that returned the financial unfavorable report in comparison with the bottom (the cost of the composite one clearly more being raised).
The development of the brake to discs in the years 60 implied the implement composite materials to realize the brake accessories (the "plaquettes"). In fact, the discs, them also some melted, would not have withstood the aggressiveness of accessories some melted. Besides, it was necessary materials to higher friction coefficient, and having a thermal capacity more important.
The idea is therefore all naturally had just to try again soles in composite material. The resistance to the wear was improved while introducing a little abrasive material in order to polish quickly count them rumble to avoid a too quick wear of the soles, without for as much to wear notably the wheel.
Note simply that the upright composite sole of the materials metallic frictions (melted, copper, carbon, oxidize metallic, etc...) and an abrasive one (silice usually) combined to the assistance of a lion (synthetic resin). This this last one that produced a rubber odor burnt when the braking was a little violate...
International norms then were elaborated to standardize the performances of these soles, the every material composition remaining nevertheless specific to every manufacturer. Two types of soles were defined:
* the sole K, to high friction coefficient (0,25 in average)
* the sole L, to weak friction coefficient (0,17 in average)
During a long time, the composite soles were forbidden in single usages, in reason notably of them strong sensitiveness to humidity: the friction coefficient could thus fall dramatically the days of rain, and the users of the suburbs Montparnasse have again in memory the two accidents of Z5100 equipped for essays of this type of soles in the years 70 (the last one having finished in the office of the bossPark, this that does a little disorder)....Nevertheless, the manufacturers one realized of important progresses on this aspect, and the soles in composite material could be generalized on many equipment: electric locomotives (BB 7200 / BB 22200 / BB 15000 / BB 26000 / BB 36000 and CC 6500) and diesel (BB 67400 and CC 72000), as well as equipment of suburbs (rib/rio, Z 5300, Z 6400, Z2N) and self-propelled (X'S 72500), and certain specific cars forThe soles K; equipment of suburbs for the soles L (the latter being less performance that the soles K, but wearing itself a little less quickly). The motrices of the TGV are equally equipped in soles K.
It is necessary nevertheless to note that the soles in composite material present again some inconveniences:
* they subject to metallic inclusions (particles pulled out to the wheel), this that the return next more aggressive with respect to the wheel.
* they polish to count it rumble, this that very favorable in terms of rumble noise but unfavorable in terms of adherence appeal (to see the page on the adherence and the antienrayeurs) : their usage is therefore rather réservée,sauf case special, to modern equipment equipped of antienrayeurs.
* They present thermal again limited capacities, the high temperatures risking inducing a phenomenon of "fading" thermal (important fall, indeed cancellation, friction coefficient by thermal transformation of the resin in surface of the accessories under the influence of the strong temperatures). Their usage remains therefore limited to the applications to energy level average.
The brake to soles in material fritté
At the time of the development of the TGV Atlantic, it appeared necessary to develop, for the motrices (on which ones the architecture of the transmission tripode forbids the installation of a brake to discs on the essieux), a sole new type able to absorb important energies all while presenting a weak sensitiveness to humidity.
The material fritté correlative being in development for the brake to discs in steel, the decision was taken to use equally this material type for the soles.
These soles combine the advantages of the bottom and composite one, to know:
* high friction coefficient average (0,25)
* weak sensitiveness to humidity and to speed
* texturing to count it rumble, this that is favorable in terms of adherence appeal.
Nevertheless, the soles in material fritté are very aggressive for the wheel, and present the same inconvenience that the bottom in terms of noise out braking phase: the texturing to count it rumble induces an increase of the emitted noise to rumble. Besides, their purchase cost very student.
The arrival again soles in composite material to performances almost équivalentes, but less dear and especially more performance in terms of rumble noise induced the abandonment of the soles in material fritté (that equipped origin the motrices TGV, the BB 26000, the XTER, the motrices Z2N, and transitionally certain vehicles of the series BB 7200 / BB 22200 / BB 15000 and CC 72000).
The brake to disc
The years 60 and 70 saw the development of the brake to discs to accompany the increase of the speeds of the trains. It was necessary to manage to increase the dissipation capacity thermal embarked while not soliciting the wheels that to reasonable levels. Thus was born the brake to rail discs.
The first discs all naturally were realized some melted, simple and inexpensive material. Then came the era of the disc in steel, to the more important capacities. While awaiting the émergence again materials...
The brake to disc some melted
Very quickly, the rail freinistes went counts that the bottom presented many advantages in terms of braking:
* she is easy to mold, and the casting is maîtrisable by many casters; this allows realizing ventilated discs monoblocs, with forms of fins of very different and performance ventilation.
* this is a material not very costly.
* this is a material that presents good thermal characteristics: the bottom broadcasts very well the heat, that divides up itself uniformément in the disc (not any hot points) and evacuates itself easily.
Of fact, the disc some melted quickly appeared as the panacea, so for the stop braking (quick trains until 200 km/h, in association with the brake to soles) that for the frequent brakings (exploitation suburbs). Two principal bottom types are used:
* the gray bottom to graphitizes lamellaire (said GL) : this bottom more shed, for she is less costly to produce and presents good mechanical and thermal characteristics.
* the bottom to graphitizes sphéroïdale (or GS).
Disc in melted clever ventilated on essieu carrier of self-propelled TER X'S 72500
Disc in melted bolted ventilated on the wheel of an essieu motor of the tram CITADIS
In parallel, the manufacturers developed accessories in composite material always more performance, allowing dissipations of energies always higher. The coefficients obtained very high frictions (0,35 in average), and very stable according to speed (initial, but so instantaneous). Nevertheless, to the origin of the brakes to disc, the composite accessories presented the same inconveniences that the soles of the same material, to know:
* sensitiveness to humidity, this that imposed their association with a brake to soles some melted
* limitation of the maximum temperature in surface around 350 to 400°C, this that imposed a limit rather low in terms of energy absorbtion.
Nevertheless, many progresses were realized the latter years, having resulted in the introduction of high composite accessories temperature (even towards 600°C), less sensitive to humidity. These accessories allowed on a part to equip vehicles in brake to single discs or in association with soles in composite material (as the XTER for example), but also to push back thermal limits of the brake to disc some melted to the limits of the disc himself.
Side disc, the progresses essentially concerned the conception of special bottoms to adapt itself to certain applications to average / high power, but also to reduce noticeably the power consumption of the ventilation all while improving the exchanges thermal by ventilation. In fact, the first discs equipping the tgv-pse consumed to them alone the power of a half traction motor (on the 12 of the rows) to 270 km/h!
Discs in melted ventilated to radial fins (to the left) and to optimized fins (to right) - Document SAB WABCO
An important work was realized equally on the fixing of the friction crown to the clever hub on essieu, of manner to allow a good thermal expansion of the crown in braking course. The hub can be some melted, molded of an alone pad with the crown, be in steel, the crown then being retrieved by surmoulage or by fixing to sockets. Certain special architectures were created, as for example the disc doubles tgv-pse: a unique hub in steel on which are retrieved two friction crowns.
Appeared equally:
* The bolted disc on the wheel: the hub not more clever on the essieu, but set up on the wheel and allows prisoner of the friction crown monobloc for than this one can be enclosed by the accessories. The disc can have brought up be inside the wheel (it resembles then to an essieu disc), be at the exterior one wheel (cases many trams to low floor).
Disc in melted bolted ventilated on the wheel - Document SAB WABCO
* the disc flasqué in the wheel (or wheel disc) : there is no longer any hub, and the friction crown is realized in two parties climbed party and of other of the wheel sail, the timonerie coming to enclose the wheel to apply the accessories on the disc.
The diameters of essieux discs the most current ones are:
* 590, 610 and 640 mm for the applications subways heavy / self-propelled / self-propelled / hauled equipment travelers, the thickness more current being 110 mm.
* around 400 mm for the trams, the thickness being of about 50 to 60 mm.
The brake to disc some melted remains today the most often used, for it represents despite all the better current economical compromise in look of required performances, than this be for big speed (ICE, Shinkansen) or urban service (RER, subways or trams). Certain cars to high speed is equally equipped brake discs some melted in order to improve the performances in braking (freight trains to 200 km/h).
The brake to disc in steel
The necessity to assure the braking of the bogies carriers of the TGV Atlantic by single discs to eliminate the soles, noise generators of rumble, induced the development of the disc in steel, said high disc power.
Considering the fact that the TGV is an equipment braking little frequently, and that the steel is a very difficult material to mold without defect, the conception is itself reach towards discs without ventilation in order to avoid the noted losses with the tgv-pse. The disc could thus be realized by forgeage, technical of EASIER formage to mastery and allowing avoiding the manufacture defects.
Disc doubles in steel for TGV - Document SAB WABCO
The used steel a steel allied to high elastic limit, and treated in surface to present a high hardness. This disc revealed important dissipation capacities énergétique, since they about 2,5 times more students than a disc some melted dimensions équivalentes (18 to 20 MJ for this disc, against about 8 MJ for a disc some melted dimensions équivalentes). The maximum power injectable has she also considerably increased summer, passing of about 150 to 200 kW for a disc tgv-pse to 350 kW for a disc in steel of the TGV Atlantic.
Disc doubles in steel on bogie TGV Duplex
In parallel, the braking to single discs constrained to the era, considering the sensitiveness to the humidity of the accessories in composite material and of their thermal limited capacities, to take the development of accessories in material fritté.
This material is realized under the form of a powder to metallic basis (iron, copper or tans) grouped under strong pressure and high temperature (proceeded says frittage). The accessories for TGV was realized in the form of a plots fixed by brazing on a tôle support (and no more in the form of an an accessories monobloc, as the accessories in composite material) of manner to improve the distribution of the thermal flow at the time of the braking. Unfortunately, it quickly proved himself that this accessories had two incompatible property: his hardness rendered insensitive it to water, but provoked hot points on the disc. In the fabric softener, the hot points disappeared, but the sensitiveness to humidity increased quickly. It has therefore been necessary to find a compromise, which showed since 10 years his accuracy...
Brake accessories to disc in material fritté for TGV
The accessories in material fritté present equally a very good resistance to the temperature, since they accept average temperatures of 600 to 700°C without notable variation of the friction coefficient (knowing that certain points of the disc at the time of the urgency braking in extreme conditions attain 900 to 1000°C).
The success of the disc in steel of the TGV pushed the designers to imagine discs in ventilated steels, to ally braking power and discharge capacity thermal, this that would allow exploitations to strong load in frequent stops. The problem notably put itself at first years 90 for the cars V2N, that one wished to brake with only two discs by essieu and without soles, but also for the TGV Korea then the TGV Taiwan as one glimpsed to the era as subways to big speed (with stops of 300 km/h to 0 all the 50 km)....The first one revealed finally less criticizes itself, the second pass in final in the giron of the Japanese...
Nevertheless, ventilated disc in steel was developed in the framework of the Project V2N, and after some due setbacks to mastery difficulties the casting of the steel, this disc showed big advantages that, allied to the performances the recent accessories in composite high material temperatures, allowed equipping certain applications to specific constraints, allying strong powers (until 500 kW) and average energies. These discs thus allowed, for the ZTER, to eliminate the soles of the essieux motors again present on the XTER, all while authorizing the braking since 200 km/h with an increased slowdown of 30%.
The future of the brake to disc
The race to the speed of a side, to urban equipment capacitifs of the other, associated with an optimisation of the costs imply the research of solutions again more performance than the current solutions.
This is as well as appeared since few the discs in aluminum reinforced of particles in ceramic, associated with the accessories in composite material. These discs, well that lightly less capacitifs thermally that the discs some melted, present factors better thermal conductions than the bottom, this that strongly reduces the weaies of the disc and especially accessories: the heat more quickly is transferred surface towards the interior of the disc, and as the wear of the composite accessories grows very quickly with the temperature... besides, these discsMass of 40% in comparison with a disc some melted of even cuts. But their again prohibitive cost reserves them for the moment to very targeted applications.
In parallel, explorations continue heading for discs to metallic soul clothed of ceramics, associated with garnitues in specific material, indeed discs in massive ceramic. The track of carbon remains equally explored.
The dynamic brake
Since that the electric traction exists, one knows that the electric motor can easily produce a braking effort if one uses the inertia of the train to do it to work in generator.
For the vehicles to traction diesel and hydrodynamic transmission, a dynamic brake using the oil pressure was developed to assure the same function.
The brake electrodynamics
When a generator debits on a load (resistance for example), appears on his tree a resistant effort stretching to slow down it. This is true whatever the generator type: continuous current, synchrone or asynchronous. Alone the methods pou to begin the process and to maintain it differ.
This is therefore all naturally that a traction motor electric, which that it be, can be used in manner generator to produce a braking effort that will slow down the origin of his movement, c'est-à-dire the essieu to which one it is mécaniquement coupled by the transmission.
Thus was born the brake electrodynamics, that covers:
* the brake rhéostatique: the traction motors debit in rhéostats, which these dissipate next the energy under calorific form in the atmosphere
* the brake to recuperation: the traction motors debit in the nutrition line high tension, the thus returned energy being able to be réutilisée by the other convoys, or sent back towards the nutrition network by the bias of the under stations.
The first brake type presents the advantage of to be able to be implemented indépendamment of all high nutrition tension, therefore notably on a locomotive diesel electric. On the other hand, the braking energy is dissipated in pure loss.
The typical second of brake presents the advantage of to be able to recover the braking energy, and therefore to improve very noticeably the economical report of the exploitation of the vehicles. Nevertheless, it necessitates:
* the installation on board of the vehicle of nutrition equipments of the reversible and performance motors, of manner to be able to send back in the nutrition line a current of near characteristics of the one furnished by the under stations, c'est-à-dire little "polluted" by the harmonic ones.
* The presence of consumers at the same time on the nutrition line, the electric energy not being able by definition to stock itself. This brake type cannot therefore to work at the time of the hollow hours (first and last trains), or then necessitates of the under reversible stations (therefore a dearer little) to send back the energy towards the distributor (EDF in France). The latter aspect practically never is not implemented, considering the constraints of "purity" sent back current taxed by the energy distributors electric.
This is the reason the brake rhéostatique majority equips big equipment lines (locomotives, TGV), that brake little often and of which the mechanical brake is sized to be able to work alone in a temporary way without échauffements or excessive weaies, while the brake to recuperation equips rather urban equipment (trams, subways) and sub-urbains (self-propelled). To note that certain equipment (trams notably) are equipped of the two brake types, notably when the mechanical brake remains comparatively under sized thermally for causes constraint in terms of available volume on the bogies.
The brake rhéostatique presents another advantage: with a conception idoine of the power equipments and of them electronic of order, the brake rhéostatique can be considered as security, and therefore it can some to be held counts in the respect of braking performances to the look of the signalisation. Without this aspect, the TGV certainly would not have seen the light of day, since the brake rhéostatique allows bearing the fact that spaces it available on the bogies motors TGV does not allow installing an important braking capacity mechanical.
It is necessary to note at last that certain specific, independent constraints of rolling equipment, can big influence on the choice of the brake type electrodynamics. Thus, in France, if the recuperation is everywhere possible in nutrition 1,5 continuous kV, on the other hand she is delicate in nutrition 25 kV monophasé. In fact, the SNCF supplies his network from the network EDF more near, but two under adjacent stations necessarily are not connected on the same nutrition phase (three-phase) EDF, for équilibrage questions of the consumption. This why the lines SNCF supplied in 25 kV monophasé are equipped, between the under stations, of destined sectionnements to avoid the current circuits for phase difference enters under stations. The probability that two trains be on the same section of a group of around fifty kilometers being weak, and the under stations not being reversible (to avoid sending back on the network EDF a tension that be not "pure"), it is clear that the braking by recuperation is not interesting for not very available. Alone the lines of supplied suburbs in monophasé can present a recuperation rate interesting, justifying even the absence of braking rhéostatique associated (cases of the Z 20500). In Germany on the other hand, the DB supplies the body of its lines from a unique network, without discrepancy. It there has not therefore any systematic sectionnements, this that allows guaranteeing practically definitely the presence of a train (therefore of a consumer) in a comparatively near ray. Thus, the equipment of the DB practically never are not equipped braking rhéostatique.
The hydrodynamic brake
The hydrodynamic brake is at the hydrodynamic transmission this that the brake electrodynamics is at the electric traction.
It was developed to allow a dynamic braking (therefore without wear) on the self-propelled and locomotives diesel of weak equipped powers of a hydrodynamic transmission (can integrating a coupler and a convertisseur hydraulic couples).
Cut of a turbo transmission - Document VOITH
The principle is very simple: it consist in to inject oil under pressure between two provided coupelles of radial aubages, and turning in comparison with each other (the stator is set up to the body of the can, the rotor being set up on the exit tree). The pressure of the fluid, associated with his viscosity, generate a retarding effort that it is possible to modulate while playing on the oil pressure. To stop the effort, it suffices to drain totally the brake.
Functioning principle of a hydrodynamic brake - Document VOITH
The energy is dissipated under calorific form in the oil of which ones circulates in permanence in the brake and is cooled by the intermediary one échangeur oils water of the can (the cooling circuit of water being the one of the traction motor diesel). The oil is the one of the transmission, used for coupling or the couple conversion during the traction phases, and in the hydrodynamic brake during the braking phases.
A pair of shutters comes to seal partially the brake out braking phase, of manner to avoid the overheat consecutive to the intermingling by the aubages of the rotor of the injected air in the brake after draining in braking end (and by continuation of what the spontaneous inflammations of the oil remainders in the brake)....This dispositoin reduces also the resistance of the hydrodynamic brake in traction phase as could generate this intermingling of the air between the aubages.
Transverse cutting of a brake hydrodyanmique - Document VOITH
This brake type is particularly effective beyond 50 km/h, as far as the cooling systems of the can and motor correctly is sized. Thus, it equips with successes many self-propelled ones (X'S 2100, self-propelled TER X'S 72500 and rail car TER X'S 73500).
The electromagnetic brake
With the development of the big speed in the years sixty in France and the generalization of the 160 km/h on lines stationed for the 140 km/h in Germany developed, in parallel of the brake to disc, the electromagnetic brake on rail.
This one consist in to apply on the every rail surface a constituted skate of électro-aimants. These create an effort vertical by attraction that, combined with the friction coefficient of the skate on the rail, generates a withholding effort. The field itself reboucle here in the rail in a transverse way: skate every element behaves therefore a center North and a center South coast to coast.
The character non-modérable of this brake type reserves it to the urgency brakings, so much as it tends to wear the surface of the rail (at the same time wears itself the friction sole of the skate)....Nevertheless, it presents two important advantages:
* it frees himself totally adherence wheel rail, and practically insensitive east to the exterior conditions and to the degrading factors this adherence; it brings therefore a slowdown complement interesting and reliable.
* it notably improves the adherence wheel rail for the dynamic and mechanical brakes acting on the essieux, by a cleaning effect energetic of the surface of the rails.
This is as well as it equips almost all the vehicles of the rolling DBAG to more than 140 km/h (and until the ICE1 and ICE2, where it can be applied since 280 km/h!), the entirety of the trams in the world and many vehicles of by europe. In France, his usage remains stationed to special applications for which ones the mechanical brake is insufficient to guarantee required performances. It equips therefore equipment RER modern of the RATP in his body (MI79 and 84, MI2N), as well as some equipment of the SNCF (RTG, MI2N and ZTER). This brake type also equipped the first authorized cars to 200 km/h for the Capitole, as well as the Big cars Comfort.
Skates of electromagnetic brakes installed under a bogie carrier d'ICE1 - Document SAB WABCO
One distinguishes two brake types electromagnetic on rail, corresponding to two a little different usages:
* The skates equipping the trams are type to low suspension: they are set up to the chassis of bogie by the intermediary one of springs, these now the skates to a distance of about 10 mm rail. This sufficiently weak distance for that the simple one turned on skates provokes their application on the rails by attraction effect magnetic. This mounting is not nevertheless applicable that because of the weak circulation speed of the trams (80 km/h max), this that avoids the untimely contacts of the skates with the rails at the time of the circulations. Besides, the magnetic skates of the trams are usually monoblocs, because of their weak length (1 meter max). At last, the skates are maintained applied until the stop in order to guarantee a slowdown complement the most more a long time most possible; the corollary is an important jerk to the neighborhood of the stop, the friction coefficient of the skates presenting a strong climbed one back up one while instantaneous speed subsides.
Brake device electromagnetic to non articulated skate and low suspension installed on tram bogie CITADIS
* The skates equipping equipment sub-urbains and big lines are at high suspension: they are set up to the chassis of bogie by the intermediary one of pneumatic vérins now the skates to a distance of about 100 mm rail, this in order to avoid the untimely contacts with the latter at the time of the circulations to high speed. The vérins allow, at the time of the triggering of the urgency brakings, to approach the skates of the rails to a sufficiently weak distance for that the turn on provokes their application on the rails by magnetic attraction.
Brake device electromagnetic to articulated skates and high suspension- Document SAB WABCO
At the end of the braking, the electric nutrition is cut and the vérins are drained, this that provokes it climbed back up of the skates by integrated springs to the vérins. The vérins therefore regulated for not to exercise no effort, but a simple approach. The skates, in this application type, dated back to weak speed (around 15 km/h), in order to avoid the phenomenon of jerk to the moment of the stop: the slowdown loss that some results negligible remainder to the look of the braking time important. At last, these skates are usually articulated to improve their inscription on the different way types and of way devices, as well as because of their length (around 1,3 meters in average). They besides provided with étraves of which forms it allows the passage in applied position on the way devices (the hearts of needles notably) without the one deterioration or the other.
The brake skates electromagnetic generally brought up under the will follow bogie, between the wheels. One finds nevertheless some rare mini-patins cases climbed to the exterior one bogie, some carries-to-false.
Nevertheless, the mass of this device (about 800 kg by bogie for a big vehicles lines, the skates having to be linked up between them by a framework) and the important cost remain prohibitive.
To note that the brake skates electromagnetic the most shed ones those constituted windings supplied by the battery of the vehicle. It exists nevertheless for a few years skates to liking permanent. These present the advantage of to be independent of the electric nutrition of the vehicle (and to relieve this one!), as well as to be able to be used as parking lot brake. But they necessitate the addition of a supplementary mechanism, activated in a pneumatic way or hydraulic according to the manufacturers, that allows the completion of the magnetic flow of the liking in the rails (braking position) or in the cylinder head the skate (position out braking). This skate type equips notably the locomotives Re460 sbb/cff.
The brake to running Foucault
This brake type exists since the beginning of the years 70, but his rail history is only a continuation of hopes and of renunciations in Europe, while it imposed since a long time on the Japanese Shinkansen under his form rotary press and that it equips with successes many buses and trucks (under the form of the fine brake Telma, name of the corporation that
The principle is to use the following phenomenon which a magnetized object moved in front of a metallic mass there induces currents (said running Foucault, name of their inventor) that, in return, create a magnetic force opposing itself to the object of their créatoin, in the occurence to the movement of the liking.
It exists two types of used brakes in the world, and a third one having been the object of an experimentation of short length on the TGV 001.
The brake SENF
First brake to running rail Foucault, the brake SENF (Without Entrefer Or Friction) consist in to generate currents of Foucault in the wheels thanks to installed windings around these in the inferior party, and set up on the essieux cans. Currents were equally induced in the rails owing to the relative proximity of the spools in comparison with these, generating an effort complement independent of the adherence wheel rail.
Principle of the brake SENF
The essays showed the effectiveness of this brake, supposed besides to reinforce the adherence sollicitable by magnetic effect to the contact wheel rail. But their big disability was to increase noticeably the non suspended masses (this that is unfavorable for the big applications speed), and to remain despite all dependent one on the adherence wheel rail. Maybe this brake type was it equally too some advances on his time...
The rotary brake
Generalized by the Japanese on the bogies carriers of their Shinkansen since the end of the years 80, the rotary brake to running Foucault consist in to install on the essieux of the similar discs to those used by the mechanical brake, but in which these one induces, thanks to windings, currents of Foucault producing a braking effort.
It is a matter therefore all simply of the rail version of the brake Telma.
Nevertheless, his principal inconvenience is to be totally dependent on the adherence wheel rail, the adherence portion used by this brake not being usable by the other brakes (electrodynamics or mechanical). Besides, his effectiveness subsides quickly with speed.
His principal advantage is of not to present no wear, since there is not friction, to be totally modérable (the effort being proportional to the current in the windings on a big beach of speeds) and to be able to be supplied from the brake electrodynamics (by the current produces by the traction motors working in generators).
The linear brake
In order to free itself adherence wheel rail and to take advantage a lot of the slowdown complement that can bring this braking type were conceived installed skates between the wheels of the bogies, in a similar mounting to the one of the skates of the electromagnetic brake on rail.
Functioning principle of the linear brake to running Foucault
The principle is here to generate in the rail of the longitudinal magnetic fields of which the deformation produces currents of Foucault that generate a braking effort. The centers North and South therefore here alternated in the longitudinal direction, in contrast to the electromagnetic brake on rail.
Linear brake to running Foucault climbed on bogie motor of TGV - Document ALSTOM
To work, the skates must be brought to proximity of the rail, the entrefer having to be of about 8 to 10 mm: this implies that out braking phase, they are raised, while in braking position they must be approached to the assistance of pneumatic vérins.
Besides, the functioning is not optimum that if the entrefer is maintained constant noticeably all to alongside the braking: this necessitates that the skates be clever on a referential one underneath the primary suspension, to know on the essieux cans. But then, they constitute a non suspended mass, and their important mass (1200 kg about for two skates and the associated framework) incompatible east with the circulation to big speed (that necessitates a strict limitation of the non suspended masses). This aspect explains also as it be necessary to raise them out braking phase, and as it be necessary a device rather imposing of butted on the essieux cans, that more is réglables, to be able to obtain a constant entrefer on wear the whole beach of the wheels.
Nevertheless, this brake type presents the advantage of to be without wear, and perfectly modérable (as the rotary brake). It presents on the other hand another inconvenience: the braking effort subsides quickly with the speed underneath 200 km/h, while the attraction effort skate rail increases in an exponential way when speed subsides, this that forbids his usage underneath 150 km/h about for lack of pull out the rails or (and) to distort the chassis of bogie (and the skate!). It is therefore reserved to the domain of the big speeds.
The first essays date back to the TGV 001, then this brake was put in sleep for his usefulness for the tgv-pse was not shown. Despite all, his promoter, the German équipementier KNORR Bremse, continued his optimisation for it was part of the envisaged brakes for l'ICE1. His abandonment besides rhine to the era of l'ICE1 after of too frequent disruptions of the way circuits on classical lines the put back in saddle in the framework of the development of the tgv-ng in France, for speeds of 350 km/h (it will be even tried on a rows TGV Network in two versions, the one correspondent to the product existing origin KNORR Bremse, the other. But the project tgv-ng will not have any immediate continuation, and the linear brake to running Foucault rejoins the boxes of the French... side to reemerge besides rhine, where it equips now row them ICE3 of series. Will it do a return in France soon? The future we will say it.
You are correct of course. However, brakes absorb momentum, the product of mass and velocity. The article that I cited states, track brakes are used at relatively high speeds - 200 km/hr. Therefore the difference in speed for which track brakes are used more than compensates for any difference in the weights between an R28 and a CTA 6000 car.
I said only that track brakes can damage rails. You added "extensive" to my statement. It is not a warranted addition.
One type of CTA train was equipped with track brakes. The operators used them regularly to stop at certain stations. There was some track damage as a result that was documented in a article that I read.
The bar usually has a "shoe" that actually contacts the rail. The shoe is softer than the steel rail and will wear out faster.
OTOH, they have used eddy current brakes using rails - a sort of linear motor used for braking. It's used on the TGV. An article I read stated that the rails could withstand only one application.
The bar usually has a "shoe" that actually contacts the rail. The shoe is softer than the steel rail and will wear out faster.
Yes, but the wheel profile is wrecked. Just look at the rail on the MBTA Green line, especially on the B line going down Warren hill. The result of this is that you have to call in LORAM every 6 months to reprofile the rail, or you end up with screwed up wheels.
OTOH, they have used eddy current brakes using rails - a sort of linear motor used for braking... the rails could withstand only one application.
This is obviously bullshit. Unless the current generated is so high that it heats the rail up beyond the transition point of the metal, resulting in a brittle rail. If you were to make that argument, I can assure you, the temperature created by a track brake is much higher.
AEM7
I lived at the bottom of the Warren hill (110 Warren St) for about a year (1963-64). Track brakes were not used for stopping or holding. Perhaps it was the fact that the PCC's were not articulated and that a 2-car train had 4 trucks in contact with the rail as opposed to an articulated LRV's 3 trucks had something to do with it. Then again, all the MBTA's LRV's have had a more difficult time staying on the tracks than the PCC's ever did during my residence in Boston and Cambridge.
I have said that continued use of track brakes on a particular piece of rail will damage that rail. I just posted a link to a TRB study that says so. However, we are talking about collision avoidance, which happened only once during the 7 years I lived in Boston. If it is now necessary to frequently take drastic measures, e.g. use track brakes, to avoid collisions or stop on a hill than I suggest that the basic problem lies elsewhere.
Unless the current generated is so high that it heats the rail up beyond the transition point of the metal, resulting in a brittle rail.
The link to using eddy current track brakes is currently down. I'll post it when it is up. It's to be used for the TGV. The TGV's friction brake pads are rated to 1600C.
The disconnect in your argument, of course, is that BIEs all too often occur for reasons other than collision avoidance. Even "tripper" actuated stops may occur under conditions where a collision was unlikely. You have not explained hopw you would achieve the necessary discrimination needed to employ track brakes without wrecking the subway (or Boston's Trolley Car system).
This isn't the article that I had in mind, but the discussion of deforming the rails when applying the brakes at under 150 km/hr is amusing.
According to other transit employees posting here, it is warranted.
You should explain this to some of the CTA operators who think using the track brake for service braking is SOP.
And yes indeed, it is very hard on the equipment and track.
Jim K.
Chicago
In fact, the problem is that the MTA seems to think that Station Time can only be applied in stations, a very boneheaded move, but one that I have to live with everyday on the ends of the CPW express run. All that would have to be done is to simply add an extra red signal behind a train. The yellow behind that train would have a posted speed (30, 25, etc). Then, a train could maintain 45 when there were no trains ahead of it, and be slowed when there is a train that could potentially be in danger.
GT's are fine for curves, and dangerous downgrades. But There's no reason why trains should have to slow to speeds below 20 mph when there are at least 10 clear blocks ahead of you. the CPW express run from 81st to 59th SB is a good example.
I hope that CBTC will eliminate all straight track timers.
There is a way. Use cab signalling with speed enforcement.
Yes, it will. Of course, the implementation of CBTC on the
CPW portion of the IND is about 15 years away, best-case.
When you're enjoying your rush hour waiting to be the one and
only train allowed between 59 St and 125 St because the CBTC system
has crapped out and you are on absolute block fallback, you'll
think back fondly to that little illuminated S.
Well, if we're gonna go to extremes, I'm sure people remember fondly before the days of any timers. Or, enforced signal blocks.
I just stated alternatives to CBTC. If the Old signals are retained, then manual operation could occur if CBTC taps out.
Huh? 250 feet? Generally that was not the spec.
You said it yourself, stopping from 50 MPH in 250 feet requires
7.4 MPH/s. The design limit for emergency braking has always
been approx 3.2MPH/s., which takes 585 feet at 50 MPH, i.e.
just about one train length. This is consistent with my
recollection of classic SMEE equipment, with cast-iron shoes.
Go BIE at full speed and you stopped in about a train length.
The signal engineering guidelines provide a safety factor of
about 1.5, i.e. the normal block length on level tangent track
is about 1000 feet.
On the WB, signal home control line lengths were shorted to 250'
during one of the re-signaling projects (1940s or 1960s?) to get
more TPH on the bridge. This was done based on the lumbering
BMT standards and the grade, assuming a fairly low achievable
speed. The combination of faster equipment (even faster than
an R-10....the post-GOH R-42 cars are lighter than an R-10
and have 15% more horsepower) and longer brakes caused the
safety factor to be <1.0, i.e. it became the un-safety factor.
The spec for the maximum stopping distance for a train going 30 mph was 230 feet in 1948. This spec was increased to 250 feet for the R10's and the rest of the SMEE equipment. This information is contained in a Powerpoint presentation by the TA following the Williamsburg Bridge accident. I found this presentation on the net but cannot find a link to it now. I'm sending you the entire presentation by email. I also recall reading other material that gave stopping distances of 250 and 275 feet, however I cannot find them right now. The 230 and 250 stopping distances correspond to braking rates of 2.9 and 2.6 mph/sec, respectively.
The signal engineering guidelines provide a safety factor of about 1.5, i.e. the normal block length on level tangent track is about 1000 feet.
The safety factor is only 35%, according to this same presentation.
On the WB, signal home control line lengths were shorted to 250' during one of the re-signaling projects (1940s or 1960s?) to get more TPH on the bridge.
The signal spacing in the vicinity of the accident was 264-270 feet, according to the NTSB report. The only date mentioned for the signal system's age is 1918. I assume that Williamsburg Bridge service levels peaked in 1928, just before the 14th St Line was extended to Canarsie. Peak rate was 27 tph in 1949 and had dropped to 26 tph by 1954. I think it highly unlikely that the BOT or TA had any reason to increase service levels on the Bridge during the 1940's or 1960's.
The design limit for emergency braking has always been approx 3.2MPH/s....The combination of faster equipment (even faster than an R-10....the post-GOH R-42 cars are lighter than an R-10 and have 15% more horsepower) and longer brakes caused the safety factor to be <1.0, i.e. it became the un-safety factor.
The Powerpoint Presentation does indeed indicate that much of the system was operating at less than a 100% safety factor. However, my opinion is that bad brakes rather than excessive speed was the principal factor for the Williamsburg Bridge crash.
The NTSB ran some tests to determine the R42's braking characteristics. They ran two tests with an R42 running flat out. It attained a speed of 34 mph at the tripper. It stopped in emergency in 360 feet, passing the collision point of 288 feet at 18 mph. The emergency braking rate was 2.4 mph/sec. They also ran a test where the train was tripped, when it was going at 15 mph. It stopped in 91.3 feet for a braking rate of 1.8 mph/sec. They also ran a full service braking test with the train operating at 33 mph at the trip signal. It stopped in 162 feet for a braking rate of 4.9 mph/sec.
If the emergency braking rate were equal to the full service braking rate, then a collision would have been avoided. Had the emergency braking rate been consistent with the 230 foot spec, then collision would have occurred at 0.3 mph and not 18 mph.
Aha! You were unclear in the first post when you said that The system was designed for trains that could stop within 250 feet at anytime, in the context of the QB IND!
I'm sending you the entire [Powerpoint] presentation by email.
I appreciate that but I don't do M$.
They also ran a full service braking test with the train
operating at 33 mph at the trip signal. It stopped in 162 feet for a braking rate of 4.9 mph/sec.
Those numbers make me suspicious of the accuracy of these tests.
The full-service brake rate is 3.0 MPH/s. At speeds above 5 MPH,
it is pretty closely regulated by the dynamic brake system's
closed-loop control of dynamic brake load current, adjusted for
load weight. Although the train was going uphill, an extra
1.9 MPH/s of deceleration is equivalent to about a 10% grade, while
the tracks there are at about 1 or 2 %. It is unlikely that the
load weigh sensors were miscalibrated on the entire train. More
likely some kind of measurement error.
34 MPH is a bit faster than the older cars could have achieved
at that spot, but I agree that the larger factor was the brake rate.
I'll have to see if I can dig up any old single line diagrams and
figure out when the signals were changed. Trains started crossing the bridge in 1912?
I've sent you the presentation as a pdf file.
Trains started crossing the bridge in 1912?
El service over the WB started on 9/16/1908.
The full-service brake rate is 3.0 MPH/s
You've reversed the full-service and emergency braking rates. The full-service rate is 3.2 mph/sec whereas the emergency braking rate is only 3.0 mph/sec.
At speeds above 5 MPH, it is pretty closely regulated by the dynamic brake system's closed-loop control of dynamic brake load current, adjusted for load weight.
Air brakes have had load weight compensation since the Standards. However, full-service brakes use both dynamic brakes and air brakeswhereas emergency braking uses only air brakes.
Although the train was going uphill, an extra 1.9 MPH/s of deceleration is equivalent to about a 10% grade, while the tracks there are at about 1 or 2 %. It is unlikely that the load weigh sensors were miscalibrated on the entire train. More likely some kind of measurement error.
Mr. Train Dude did state that the original full-service braking rate was 4.0 on later model SMEE equipment. A 2% grade would mean that gravity would exert a braking acceleration of 0.4 mph/sec. That would make the braking rate 4.4 mph/sec, which is a lot closer to the 4.9 mph/sec observation.
This is a fairly easy test. All that's required is to record the speed when the brakes are actuated and to measure the stopping point. There's very little room for experimental error. One problem is trying to apply the brakes and measure the speed simultaneously. This was less of a problem with the emergency brakes because they were applied with the tripper. The operator applied the full service brakes. Had the operator anticipated the command by 0.4 sec or had the brake command been issued 19 feet before the tripper would have acted, then the braking acceleration would have been 4.5 mph/sec.
This does point out a problem that has been ignored - the propogation delay in applying emergency braking. One would assume that the delay in applying dynamic braking to all the trains brakes is negligible. However, the emergency brakes, when applied through the tripper, must rely on the brake line releasing it pressure. Consider the differences in the apparant braking rates at 34 and 15 mph. Suppose, there were a delay before the brakes were applied due to bleed time. Then the distance travelled would be:
s = VT + at2/2
where V was the initial velocity and T was the bleed time, a is the braking acceleration and t = V/a.
If one uses this equation with the data for both the 34 mph and 15 mph tests, then the braking acceleration is 3.1 mph/sec and the bleed time is 1.7 sec. Interesting?
The specifications for the R-42 overhaul (for example) called for a braking rate of 3.0 MPH/s at fully loaded car weight whether full service or emergency.
I hope this helps with the calculations.
David
The R-46 overhaul contract (which came after the R-42) called for a full service braking rate of 3.0 MPH/s and an emergency braking rate of 3.2 MPH/s.
David
The difference between 3.0 and 3.2 is not significant. A rate of 3.5 to 3.6 would be closer the emergency rates used by other systems without track brakes.
However, how the specification is tested or defined is of even more interest. If there is a 1.7 second delay in applying emergency brakes from the trip-cock, as opposed from the T/O's brake handle, then that 3.0-3.2 mph/sec rate can effectively be reduced to under 2.0 mph/sec.
David
That's nearly 150 feet at 50 mph.
Does the spec for braking rate include or exclude the propagation delay?
"7.2.20. EMERGENCY BRAKING.
"Under emergency braking conditions, any size tarin shall maintain an irretrievable braking rate at the weight of a fully loaded car on open level track as follows:
"INITIAL SPEED 30 mph AVERAGE DECELERATION 3.0 mphps DISTANCE TO STOP 200-250 feet
"The braking rate specified includes train resistance. Use of the emergency-stop mode of train control shall disable the jerk rate limitation subsystem
"Emergency brake application shall be via the friction brake system only. Electrical brake blending functions shall be inactive."
David
Thanks for the info.
That's an inconsistent spec. The deceleration range is 2.6 - 3.3 mph/sec for a stopping distance of 200-250 feet. It does not average out to 3.0 mph/sec.
All they needed to say was that the train shall stop within 200-250 feet (or whatever range they decide) upon the initial application of the brakes. It's also a fairly easy spec to test. The 3.0 mph/sec verbiage muddies things. I also assume that they also specified braking performance, when the initial speed was other than 30 mph.
Did the contract state how the to test whether or not the overhauled cars conformed to this spec or did they simply accept the vendor's certification? :=)
David
AEM7
Not all emergency brake applications will occur via tripping. What is the average reaction time of an alert T/O in applying emergency brakes? What is the mean reaction time of T/O's of average ability?
How is the braking rate affected by weather outdoors, or humidity in the tunnels? Suppose the Railwasher car hasn't been by yet this week. What then?
Yes, some old-school SMEEs had full service rates in excess of
3.0, as high as 4.0 This was because the friction brakes were
applied at high speeds in addition to the dynamics. I'm not talking
about inshot air, I'm talking about "supplementary pressure"
on the B relay valves. However, the GOH cars used in the TA
test did not have this. There is no way they should have gotten
a full-service rate of nearly 4.9
Emergency brake actuation is nearly instantaneous because of
the electric emergency trainline (EMV) feature.
Thanks for the PDF. I'll take a look.
I think the reason for the supplementary air was to achieve high
service braking rates. If you think about it, series motor torque
is proportional (almost, not quite linear) to current. If
the accelerating rate is 2.5 MPH/s, corresponding to a certain
current (about 350A per motor pair), then the same current would
be needed to achieve 2.5 in dynamic braking. To get 3.0 is
stressing the motors somewhat. 4.0 is way to much to ask the
motor to deliver, even short-term. There would have been frequent
flashovers. So, the friction braking was added to the dynamic
braking effort with straight air pipe pressures above 50 pounds.
If I recall, the maximum supplementary air was 20 pounds cylinder
pressure at 70 pounds SAP.
That answer should be obvious to even the casual observer.
Besides, I did give the answer in my explanation for how track brakes work.
You did not answer my question. True, in the event of a power failure you must have air brakes that work regardless.
But if there is no power failure?
Could you quantify that?
I thought that the initial tripper action was strictly mechanical and that any electric response was as a result of the pneumatic reaction to that initial stimulus. We're not talking about much time here - less than 2 seconds total.
My guess is about 250ms between the time that the trip cock
is struck and the time that the EMV wire gets energized by
the emergency valve having moved to the emergency position.
After that the other cars go into emergency practically instantly.
Time to full brake cylinder pressure is probably another 250ms
beyond that, so my ballpark figure is 1/2 sec delay total.
Well, that shoots the derived figure of 1.7 seconds delay from the WB test data and the 2 second delay from the TA's specs. :-)
David
Understood. However, in a specification the worst permitted behavior will be the close to the normal behavior unless there are economic reasons that permit better performance. This is clearly the case with the delay spec, from Mr. Jeff H's description of the gas volume.
My attention was called to the delay by trying to reconcile the poor performance of the emergency brakes during the NTSB tests on the Williamsburg Bridge. Let's just say that those brakes failed to meet minimum braking requirements at 34 mph and at 15 mph. :-)
Just Curious....
John
Do just a cursory bit of research before posting something so uninformed.
Huh? Just LIRR?
I've gotten a nice view out the front of some MNCR trains.
Still plenty of places to look out. In fact, on the R142/A/3's, you have a nice window to look out on the end bench seats (assuming you're not in a cab car).
That won't give you the name of the road (or the "why" of the crossing), but this is about the biggest hint of the location I can give.
"The line is on the same grade now as it was when the grade crossing existed. In fact, you can ride over the very spot on a regular service train, though I doubt there is any physical evidence of it remaining."
Both of my guesses are long shots, but - -
1) Somewhere on the current 'M/Z' line alongside Lutheran Cemetery.
-OR-
2) The Canarsie line where it runs along the Cemetery of the Evergreens in Bushwick.
Yes, I *have* ridden by that spot many times, the last time just this past summer. Here is a more recent picture of this area:
: ) Elias
Besides I said it was in this AREA, not in this SPOT.
: ) Elias
There is evidence in the picture which shows *exactly* where it is. I don't expect anyone to get the road name, so I'll explain after someone figures out the location.
The details.
OK, they maybe, (and hopefully) be there, but go weekdays for more chances
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
#3 West End Jeff
FAREWELL TO THE REDBIRDS.
I think a train or two of Redbirds should, and will, be saved, for Nostalgia Train runs, and the NYC, or at least some other, transit museum.
What do you think?
Joe Butler
If you are trying to mimic the R142/143 automated announcements, you are off a little bit. They announce stations by saying "This is(then a slight pause) Queensboro Plaza. Transfer is available to the N and W trains." The closing doors announcement is the male voice saying, "Stand clear of the closing doors, please."
Overall, not bad. I guess you had a lot of time on your hands. I guess I have a lot of time also for answering this post. LOL.
Mark
at 61/Woodside: Connection avaiable to the Long Island Rail Road
at Hunters Point Avenue: Connection available to the Long Ilsand Rail Road
at Grand Central: connection available to Metro-North
also: "5th Avenue at 42nd Street" should be "5th Avuenue-Bryant Park".
There is no free tranfer to the E, G, R, V trains at Queensboro Plaza yet.
at Hunters Point Avenue: Connection available to the Long Ilsand Rail Road
On a Manhatthan-bound <7>, who in their right mind would connect to the LIRR at Hunters Point Avenue?
Anyone living in Astoria or LIC and heading out to the Island. A lot quicker to take the 7 to Hunters Point Ave than to take a train in to Penn and have to come back out again.
Also, some outbound trains skip Woodside.
Joe Butler
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Manhatten is north of Manhatnine, but south of Manhateleven. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd be surprised if they went to male automated voices on future rolling stock...
And the shuttles are never referred as "S." They are always announced as "42 St Shuttle," or "Grand St Shuttle," or whatever name the shuttle has.
The announcements on the (4) (5) and (6) trains say, "Transfer is available to the Shuttle to Times Square."
"Transfer is available to the Suttle to Grand Central." (as heard on the 2)
There's a "bing bing" before the announcement... SEPTA M-4 running on the 7? Or am I thinking of the 1993 MBTA Red Line stock?
I know there is a "bing bing" on the M7 LIRR cars
Joe Butler
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Now I want you to write 100 times how your sorry on the black board!
I will not call people stupid, I am sorry!
I will not call people stupid, I am sorry!
I will not call people stupid, I am sorry!
I will not call people stupid, I am sorry!
I will not call people stupid, I am sorry!
I will not call people stupid, I am sorry!
I will not call people stupid, I am sorry!
I will not call people stupid, I am sorry!
I will not call people stupid, I am sorry!
I will not call people stupid, I am sorry!
I will not call people stupid, I am sorry!
I will not call people stupid, I am sorry!
I will not call people stupid, I am sorry!
I will not call people stupid, I am sorry!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Joe Butler
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
You spelled it wrong AGAIN! Ha ha ha ha.
"Bing Bing" This station is East New York.
*doors open*
"Bing Bing" This is an Atlantic Ave bound train. The next sation is Nostrand Ave"
(I forgot what it says when the doors close. Ive been on a M7 only once)
Then after the train starts moving
"Bing bing" This is an Atlantic Ave Bound train, the next station is Nostrand Ave"
http://www.johnvillanueva.com/rollsigns/R68.html
wayne
http://www.johnvillanueva.com/rollsigns/R62.html
I don't know about Darlene, though. Head thicker than molasses, IYKWIM.
Peace,
ANDEE
Moo.
A replaces E from Jamaica Ctr and WTC
C replaces F from Bedford Park Blvd Broxn and WTC
E replaces V from 71
V replaces E from Jamaica Ctr and WTC
C replaces F from Bedford Park Blvd Broxn and WTC
E replaces V from 71 Continental Ave and 2Ave
M replaces R from Bay Ridge and 71 Continental Ave
J replaces N from Astoria and Stillwell Ave
N replaces J from Jamaica Center and Broad Street
B replaces G from Smith 9 Street and 71 Continental Ave
H replaces A from 207 St Inwood and Far Rockaway
K replaces D from 205 St Bronx to Stillwell Ave
R replaces M from Metropolitan Ave and Bay Pkwy
A replaces B from 145 St to Stillwell via West End
I don't remember the order of the readings on the R27, R30, or R32 - I'll have to look them up...
Of course the trolleys around here are supposed to pick up passengers no matter where they are or where they're going, even if they have to drop you off at the depot gate. There's lots of turnbacks, short turns and such listed on the rollsigns, but 'Not in Service' and the like are pretty rarely seen, unless the trolley is bad ordered and not passenger-occupiable. Even though they're supposed to always be in service, trying to catch a trolley on the diversion route when the trolleys are running through the tunnel can be hell.
They didn't have much mass transit - foot-propelled cars and flying reptile planes, but nothing on rails that I remember.
Barney and Fred, they even had TV versions of the ads.
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/19/nyregion/19FERR.html
Hahahaha, Hehehehe... that they think they on! A Subway Train.
OK wise guy... Here's the end of a spedometer cable! Go and connect it to something!
Sheesh!
Reporters!
Elias
That should have been pulled.
The PAX might nt know what it meant, but the cre sure as hell would have known.
And PAX, never having heard it before would have known that *something* was happening.
As for speed, the best way to judge that outside of radar interpretation would be by 1) Laser designators, or 2) by GPS systems.
BNSF is planning to eliminate train crews and run all of the trains from its office in Texas via GPS systems.
(Hey watch them grade crossings now!)
I'd be ferry surprised if it did not!
Elias
I'd be curious how you could get an accurate speedometer on a ferry, what with issues of current and wind.
Two ways that come to mind: GPS and inertial navigation.
That subway trains didn't have a speedometer until recently is not a justification not to have one. It was an omission that was recently rectified.
The "revelation" that the boat had no speedometer might seem like negligence in these litigious times. Since the pilot apparently passed out, a speedometer wouldn't have helped a great deal.
Of course there's always the issue of the pilot collapsing onto the deadman switch, thereby negating it's effectiveness, so perhaps a button that would need to be pressed intermittantly would be more beneficial. The pilot would have to punch it ever 30 seconds during docking, after 30 seconds it'd buzz, and 30 seconds later the deadman feature described above would activate. It could be coupled with the GPS system and lessen how often it required the pilot's attention out in the middle of the harbor, from say 4000 feet to 1 mile offshore to 1 mile or so from the other terminal. 18 knots is just about 1800feet per minute, so 4000 feet would require some 2 minutes to transit, plenty of time for the deadman switch to catch a snoozing Pilot. Another application could be the GPS watching over the Pilot's actions, to make sure he doesn't try to ground on Govenors Island. I guess that aspect of it would be similar to the Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning Systems (EGPWS) that airliners and other civil aircraft now make use of.
It might sound like I'm trying to develop a bunch of babysitters for the pilot, invade his workspace with a bunch of computer programs that would cut down on his freedom. Well actually I am, they had freedom and 10 people died. Heck, how many people died in the Williamsburg Bridge accident, and that resulted in nearly every once fast section of track getting it's speed knocked down, I'm not even promoting performance restrictions.
"Of course there's always the issue of the pilot collapsing onto the deadman switch, thereby negating it's effectiveness,"
You do realize that the probability of this happening, in a movie with Keanu Reeves aboard the ferry, is 100%.
:0)
I'm sure the NYCDOT is thinking along exactly the same lines as you. The lawyers are certainly already telling them they have to make every possible effort to prevent a pilot blackout from casuing this kind of accident ever again.
What a ship needs is more than one watchstander on the bridge.
Where was the other captain, at the gedunk?
Elias
The fog signal that you describe isn't to listen for echos. It is to warn other ships of your boat's location.
The KENNEDY and AUSTEN class have three Deck Officers as you've described. The BARBERI class has four - an extra Mate.
Chip
Seattle and Vancouver have many ferry lines and some boats are quite sophisticated. I was on one in (IIRC) Vancouver which entered its slip under automatic control. It came in smoothly under tight clearances, without the bump and grind we're all familiar with. Instead of departing from the end of the boat, doors in the side of the ferry (like a humongous subway car) lined with doors in the side of the pier, also automatically. Both sets of doors opened, and we departed.
Along the same line, allowing that airplanes are ships that sail the air instead of the sea, I understand that at Heathrow a plane could be landed completely under ground control in zero visibility, if necessary.
Aircraft carriers were equipped with such systems too - but they are not used. Instead, pilots fly down the slope chasing a "meatball" (Fresnel lens) and getting voice instructions from a Landing Signal Officer.
What about a deadman's switch on the pilot's controls?
If the engineer doesn't make or break contact with the throttle handle or horn control every so often, the alerter beeps, flashes lights, and then brings the equipment to a stop if the engineer doesn't acknowledge the warnings.
(Most people think the emergency brakes come on -- they do NOT. The trains just make a normal service braking stop. It's not like the tripper on NYCTA subways....)
Boats don't have brakes. A certain amount of forward thrust is required to maintain proper headway, otherwise the boat will founder and drift into either the same pier, or perhaps another ship.
There is supposed to be a crew on the bridge.
Elias
What about a deadman's switch which, if activated, reduces the forward thrust to the minimum level?
I don't think that is too useful.
How about a deadman's switch that uses the engines and thrusters (if they were to be installed) to bring the boat to a stop and then keep it in the exact same place. GPS could be used to tell the boat info about if it is being moved by the current or wind.
NOPE. That could stop a boat directly in the path of an oncoming ship what would not realize that the boat had stopped, nor realize that it was no longer under command.
Elias
: ) Elias
It's not as relevant as one might think. The tides and winds have a lot to do with docking the boat than the throttle.
Peace,
ANDEE
:0)
So yess Andy is right with his KnotOMeter..
Subway trains dont have a sextent, that's why Selkirk used the cab.
: )
Knot is a unit of measure, not a quantity. My car doesn't have a "miles-per-hourometer"
Then again, speed had both magnitude (velocity) and direction... unless there's a built-in compass, it should really be called a velocitometer.
I can't wait until I get my hands on a copy!
I wasn't able to find a copy. What did it say that I would like?
Thanks for the information. Looks like ferry managers both in New York and Washington are a fertile market for adult-diaper sales. Though somehow I suspect there's a bit less paranoia in Seattle, as New Yorkers seem to be the nation's experts in the panty-piddling category.
Bonus terrorism question: What Islamic terrorist group can be "credited" with inventing suicide bombings, and has used them with the greatest effect?
If someone else has posted, I am sorry, I have not had a chance to check.
Peace,
ANDEE
Group photo (taken by my best friend, Steve K.)
*Please allow time for pictures to load. They are uncompressed which makes them better quality.
2003 Croton-Harmon Open House Pictures (By Joe Tischner)
Enjoy,
Joe
Thanks,
Neil
PS, that weird Bing Bong is still existing in my cell phone! R68 Q train #2758.
Group photo (taken by my best friend, Steve K.)
*Please allow time for pictures to load. They are uncompressed which makes them better quality.
2003 Croton-Harmon Open House Pictures (By Joe Tischner)
Enjoy,
Joe
Once I can finish uploading my pics, I'll post the link to 'em all.
To attend the chat Click Here
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I notice that the video, perhaps due to small playback size, does not give the viewer a sense of just how fast the Acelas and Metroliners are going. Also, the blique angle shots make the train seem slower than reality.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
(this was cut and paste, too!)
Note Changes
(2)
This is an East 180 Street bound 2 train.
This is a Wakefield bound 2ooo(twoooo) train.
(4)
This is a Brooklyn Bridge bound 4 local train.
This is a Bowling Green bound 4 express train.
This is a 125 Street bound 4 express train.
This is an Atlantic Avenue bound 4 express train.
(5)
This is an Eastchester bound 5.
This is a Mott Haven 149 Street-Grand Concourse bound 5 local train.
This is a Crown Heights bound 5 express train.
This is an Atlantic Avenue bound 5 express train.
(6)
This is a 125 Street bound 6 train.
(F)
This is a King Highway bound F train.
(L)
This is a Broadway Junction bound L train.
(1) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 1 train.
This is a South Ferry bound 1 local train.
(1) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound 1 local train.
This is a Riverdale bound 1 train.
(2) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 2 train.
This is an East 180 Street bound 2 train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 2 express train.
This is a Flatbush Avenue bound 2 train.
(2) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 2 train.
This is a Bronx bound 2 express train.
This is a Wakefield bound 2 train.
This is a Wakefield bound 2ooo(twoooo) train.
(3) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound 3 express train.
This is a New Lots Avenue bound 3 train.
(3) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 3 train.
This is a Harlem-148 Street bound 3 express train.
(4) Downtown
This is a Manhattan 4 train.
This is a Brooklyn Bridge bound 4 local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 4 express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 4 local train.
This is a Bowling Green bound 4 express train.
This is an Atlantic Avenue bound 4 express train.
This is a Crown Heights bound 4 express train.
This is a New Lots Avenue bound 4 local train.
(4) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 4 express train.
This is a Manhattan bound 4 local train.
This is a 125 Street bound 4 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 4 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 4 local train.
This is a Woodlawn bound 4 train.
(5) Downtown
This is an East 180 Street bound 5 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train.
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 express train.
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train via the 7 Avenue Line.
This is an Atlantic Avenue bound 5 express train.
This is a Brooklyn College-Flatbush Avenue bound 5 express train.
This is a Crown Heights bound 5 express train.
This is an East 180 Street bound 5 train. (Old Announcement)
This is a Manhattan bound 5 train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Bowling Green bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Flatbush Avenue bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
(5) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 5 express train.
This is a Bronx bound 5 local train.
This is a Bronx bound 5 express train via the 7 Avenue Line.
This is an Eastchester bound 5 local train.
This is an Eastchester bound 5 express train.
This is a Nereid Avenue bound 5 express train.
This is an Eastchester bound 5.
This is a Mott Haven 149 Street-Grand Concourse bound 5 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 5 express train. (Old Announcement)
This is a Bronx bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is an Eastchester bound 5 train.(Old Announcement)
This is an Eastchester bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
This is a Nereid Avenue bound 5 express train.(Old Announcement)
(6) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 6 train.
This is a Manhattan bound 6 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 6 express train.
This is a Brooklyn Bridge bound 6 train.
(6) Uptown
This is a 125 Street bound 6 train.
This is a Bronx bound 6 train.
This is a Bronx bound 6 local train.
This is a Parkchester bound 6 local train.
This is a Pelham Bay Park bound 6 train.
This is a Pelham Bay Park bound 6 express train.
(7) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 7 train.
This is a Manhattan bound 7 local train.
This is a Manhattan bound 7 express train.
This is a Times Square bound 7 train.
(7) Uptown
This is a Queens bound 7 train.
This is a Flushing bound 7 train.
This is a Flushing bound 7 local train.
This is a Flushing bound 7 express train.
(9) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound 9 train.
This is a South Ferry bound 9 local train.
(9) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound 9 local train.
This is a Riverdale bound 9 train.
(A) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound A express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound A local train.
This is a Queens bound A express train.
This is a Queens bound A local train.
This is a Ozone Park bound A train.
This is a Far Rockaway bound A train.
This is a Rockaway Park bound A train.
(A) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound A train.
This is a Manhattan bound A express train.
This is a Mahattan bound A local train.
This is an Inwood bound A express train.
This is an Inwood bound A local train.
(B) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound B local train.
This is a Herald Square bound B local train.
(B) Uptown
This is a Harlem bound B local train.
This is a Bronx bound B local train.
This is a Bedford Park Boulevard bound B local train.
(C) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound C local train.
This is an Euclid Avenue bound C local train.
(C) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound C local train.
This is a Washington Heights bound C local train.
(D) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound D train.
This is a Manhattan bound D express train.
This is a Herald Square bound D express train.
(D) Uptown
This is a Bronx bound D express train.
This is a Norwood bound D train.
This is a Norwood bound D express train.
(E) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound E express train.
This is a MAnhattan bound E local train.
This is a World Trade Center bound E local train.
(E) Uptown
This is a Queens bound E local train.
This is a Jamaica bound E express train.
This is a Jamaica bound E local train.
(F) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound F express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound F local train.
This is a King Highway bound F train.
This is an Avenue X bound F train.
(F) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound F train.
This is a Queens bound F local train.
This is a Jamaica bound F express train.
(G) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound G train.
This is a Smith-9th Street bound G train.
(G) Uptown
This is a Queens bound G train.
This is a Court Square bound G train.
This is a Forest Hills bound G local train.
(J) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound J train.
This is a Manhattan bound J train.
This is a Manhattan bound J express train.
This is a Broad Street bound J express train.
This is a Broad Street bound J train.
This is a Chambers Street bound J train.
(J) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound J train.
This is a Brooklyn bound J express train.
This is a Queens bound J train.
This is a Jamaica bound J train.
This is a Jamaica bound J express train.
(L) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound L train.
This is an 8 Avenue bound L train.
(L) Uptown
This is a Brooklyn bound L train.
This is a Broadway Junction bound L train.
This is a Canarsie bound L train.
(M) Downtown
This is a Mrytle Avenue bound M train.
This is a Brooklyn bound M train.
This is a Manhattan bound M local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound M local train.
This is a 9 Avenue bound M local train.
This is a Bay Parkway bound M local train.
(M) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound M local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound M local train.
This is a Queens bound M local train.
This is a Middle Village-Metropolitan Avenue bound M train.
(N) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound N train.
This is a Brooklyn bound N local train.
This is a Gravesend bound N express train.
(N) Uptown
This is a Pacific Street bound N express train.
This is a Manhattan bound N express train.
This is a Queens bound N local train.
This is an Astoria bound N train.
(Q) Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound (Q) express train.
This is a Brighton Beach bound (Q) local train.
(Q) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound (Q) local train.
This is a Midtown bound (Q) express train.
Downtown
This is a Brooklyn bound express train.
This is a Brighton Beach bound express train.
Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound express train.
This is a Midtown bound express train.
(R) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound R local train.
This is a Brooklyn bound R local train.
This is a Bay Ridge bound R local train.
(R) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound R local train.
This is a 36 Street bound R train.
This is a Queens bound R local train.
This is a Forest Hills bound R local train.
(V) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound V local train.
This is a Lower East Side bound V local train.
(V) Uptown
This is a Queens bound V local train.
This is a Forest Hills bound V local train.
(W) Downtown
This is a Manhattan bound W train.
This is a Brooklyn bound W express train.
This is a Brooklyn bound W local train via Lower Manhattan.
This is a Coney Island bound W express train.
This is a Coney Island bound W local train.
(W) Uptown
This is a Manhattan bound W express train.
This is a Manhattan bound W local train.
This is a Queens bound W express train.